WEBVTT

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 [Music]

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 Hello everyone, I'm Danny Roudy of DannyRowdy.com

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 and today I'm talking with painter, philosopher, biologist, Raymond Peat.

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 In this hour-long episode, we'll talk about the passing of May Wan Ho,

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 Vladimir Vernadsky, carbon dioxide, the NAD+ to NADH ratio,

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 new and old hormones, thyroid brands, how Ray makes his coffee, and so much more.

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 In addition to thanking Ray for talking with me today,

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 I'd like to thank my patrons for making this show and all the content I produce possible.

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 If you would like to become a patron, please go to patreon.com/dannyrowdy.

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 As always, please do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

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 And in the spirit of William Blake, the true method of knowledge is experiment.

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 Without further ado, here's the show.

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 [Music]

00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:10.040
 Hello?

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 Ray!

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 Yeah, hi.

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 Hey, how are you?

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 Good.

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 [Laughter]

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 So for this show, I kind of like had a long list of questions

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 I've kind of been thinking about for a while.

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 And since a lot of people ask me of what you think about things,

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 I wanted to clarify what you actually did think about them.

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 Sure.

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 I had a bunch of...

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 So I thought we'd start off with maybe talking about May Wan Ho.

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 Oh, I just ran across a review of the rainbow and the worm about 15 years ago,

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 I guess, whenever it came out.

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 And did you think of her as an ally in kind of your fight against mainstream science?

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 Oh, sure.

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 That coherence thing is where I've been going since the '60s, anyway.

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 In her photos, in the rainbow and the worm, had you ever seen anything like that?

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 I feel like talking to people about kind of this idea of science is hard,

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 but when you show them those photos,

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 they like almost immediately think there's more to the picture

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 than kind of the materialist science we've been sold.

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 Yeah, I think it was about 1958 or '55, maybe, when I was in Mexico first,

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 the square in Pátzcuaro, people had laid out the different fish they had caught,

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 and two different kinds of them were transparent, sort of like green jello.

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 And then I ate, they called them white fish,

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 and I had some delicious fried transparent fish that were just like ordinary white fish

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 when they were cooked, opaque on bones, everything.

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 But I was intrigued by how something with bones and blood and guts and everything,

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 heart and all of the standard organs,

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 how it could be perfectly transparent when it was uncooked.

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 And that made me think about the light being sort of carried in channels

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 to bypass the bones, effectively making bones and liver and everything disappear.

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 And that could only happen if the organism was like a crystalline,

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 liquid crystalline, like she talks about and you've also mentioned?

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 Well, that got me interested in how water works all by itself.

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 Around the same time, I was interested in electrical fields in organisms and water.

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 And the idea of light conductivity in special ways in cytoplasm

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 connected to the idea that organisms are sensitive,

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 not only to electrical currents and fields, but to magnetic fields, because

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 we have our own electrical currents inside.

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 And so a moving charge is sensitive to the magnetic environment.

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 And the first person's research that I studied in any depth was Yuri Holodov.

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 And I went to Moscow in '68 to talk to him about his biomagnetics or magnetobiology approach.

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 And through him, I then got interested in Madeline Barnathy and her work on magnetobiology.

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 She and her husband applied good physics to studying the dowsing phenomenon and found that

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 organisms could detect extremely weak magnetic fields, for example, caused just by water

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 oozing underground. Slow movement of slightly ionized water is enough for an organism like

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 a person to detect. And I was trying to understand how that works. Then I found

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 Salko Tromp's book, Psychical Physics, was the title of that. In 1945 or so, it was published.

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 And he reviewed the old literature on liquid crystals and argued that the cytoplasm

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 is like liquid crystals. And you know how the computer monitors the screen, operates on the

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 principle that a weak electrical field will reorder the liquid crystal? The biology behind that was

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 before the industry's technology application of it, using that as the argument to explain the

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 extreme sensitivity to electrical fields and magnetic fields.

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 >> Was that post your discovery of Vernadsky or pre? Were you interested in that magnetic

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 biology because of your understanding of... >> No, I found Vernadsky after that.

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 >> After. And how did that, did that tie in perfectly with what you were interested in?

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 >> Vernadsky?

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 >> Yeah.

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 >> Sure. Yeah. He just gave the bigger picture of how energy guides these intricate structures in

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 the cells of an organism. He used Le Chatelier's principle to show that when you disturb a system,

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 it finds a new equilibrium by adjusting whatever needs adjusting. Just by thinking in that context

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 that the organism is responding to the available energy with the sun or volcanic energy as the

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 source, he reasoned with that simple physical chemical principle that the complexity and

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 intensity of energy flow both would tend towards a maximum. And so he said that big trees develop

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 under big energy flows. Big brains, big brain mammals develop when there's an opportunity for

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 high energy flow. >> When you were talking about magnetism,

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 that reminded me of when you said you thought that he was a, or did he call himself a geocosmic

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 realist? >>

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 Yeah. He had various composite names for what he was doing.

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 >> That's a pretty cool title.

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 >> Yeah. Salco Trump called himself, I think, a biogeometeorologist or something like that.

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 >> That segues pretty well into the next issue. So we, last time we talked, we covered a lot of

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 ground on pre-nutrition for women and then post-nutrition for women, which I'm going to get

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 wrong again, but that was in 1975? >> From '73 to '75, I guess.

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 >> And then you reissued it in 1993 and you wrote generative energy in 1994.

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 >> Well, yeah, actually I was writing on generative energy through the '80s. It accumulated. Mind and

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 Tissue was the first one I wrote, actually. And I gave it to a flaky publisher who lost all the

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 references. And I think the chapter on Pavlov was lost too. So I had to rewrite that, but never

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 bothered to fix the missing references because the books were all in different libraries.

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 >> So we discussed some of the motivation behind Nutrition for Women was mind and tissue,

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 what you were truly interested in at the time versus some of the things--

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 >> Yeah. >> Yeah?

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 >> Yeah, that was my intense interest. And the nutrition for women was just practical things

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 that some women friends told me would make a useful compilation.

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 >> And then do you think generative energy was kind of a marriage of those two things or no?

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 >> Well, yeah, I think it was probably Bernadsky that was the kernel for putting those together.

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 >> I'm interested in how, because I search your older work for carbon dioxide and it seems,

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 although you're constantly talking about thyroid and the importance of thyroid,

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 it seems that, and I could be wrong, that the emphasis on carbon dioxide

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 might be a little less a couple decades ago versus more now. And so I'm curious

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 if things shifted or that you became more interested in carbon dioxide as time went on,

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 maybe in like the early 2000s? >> It was sometime in the late 90s,

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 I think it was. >> And what spurred that interest?

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 >> I think people asking me about Bouteiko, I had read Bouteiko's, some of his articles in,

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 I think 1969 or so, but I just didn't really think very much of it except it seemed valid. And

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 I was interested at that time in several gases, the way nitrogen fixation by chickens and mammals

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 and people from the atmosphere was what got me interested in Bouteiko. The Russians were using

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 nitrogen in their space vehicles with oxygen where the Americans were using helium.

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 And there were some publications arguing that you should always breathe some helium along with your

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 oxygen because of the fact that it can be fixed. Hemoglobin is apparently a nitrogen-fixing

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 molecule in birds and mammals as well as bacteria. And thinking about how the gases are metabolized,

00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:30.520
 for example, how does a fish keep its swim bladder inflated, the idea of, in effect, pumping gases

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 or pumping gases in or out, and the idea of the negative space between the lungs and the pleural

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 membrane, there's in effect a vacuum there, the membranes are tightly in contact, but if you get a

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 leak, your lungs collapse. If you punch a hole in the lung, the air goes out into that space and the

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 lung shrivels up. And so something is pumping all of the gas, absolutely all of the gas out of that

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 space between your chest and the lungs, that idea of creating a vacuum by somehow pulling the oxygen

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 and the nitrogen, most of the air volume is nitrogen, so it's easy to see that you can

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 subtract the oxygen from that space, but that would leave nitrogen bubbles around your lungs.

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 So something apparently is pulling the nitrogen out of that space constantly, and none of my

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 professors would even talk about that issue. Anyway, that left me thinking about the metabolism

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 of all of the gases and the idea that you can excrete salt. I was worried about the turtles

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 that have salt glands on their nose or eyes to excrete excess sodium, and the membrane pump

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 people were saying, "See, that proves that there are these marvelous little pumps that throw the

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 ions out of the cells." So on investigating that, I saw that there's carbonic anhydrase in there,

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 and just by changing the association of carbon dioxide with water, you affect its solubility.

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 If the acid moves out of the cell, to maintain electric neutrality, it takes

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 a positively charged ion with it. So every time carbonic acid leaves the cell, so does some sodium,

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 and then the carbonic anhydrase, if needed, can liberate the carbon dioxide as gas, leaving

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 just the sodium, which usually becomes sodium chloride or whatever other ions are available.

00:15:10.920 --> 00:15:16.600
 You said that carbon dioxide is the context for all life processes, and I think it was,

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 was it mitochondria and mortality? And that you said carbon dioxide in the atmosphere increasing

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 can cause spontaneous, the creation of mitochondria. Do you find that's like a pivotal

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 thing for higher evolution, was an increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

00:15:34.920 --> 00:15:42.760
 Well, at the time, the Carboniferous period, geologically, the carbon dioxide was,

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 I forget, 12% or something really intense in the atmosphere for those periods. And that really

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 stimulated a great abundance of life. The way I see the ATP synthesis, I don't think it's anything

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 fancier than the fact that if you write out the equation, you see H2O and phosphate becoming ATP,

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 rather the ATP and water become phosphate. If you subtract water from the equation,

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 the phosphate turns into ATP. I don't think I said that right, but anyway, if you look at the

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 equation and subtract water, it gives you ATP. And since carbonic anhydrase is in the mitochondrion

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 closely associated with the formation of ATP, I think its purpose there is partly to turn the

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 newly formed carbon dioxide into carbonic acid, which then leaves taking away water and creating

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 ATP by dehydrating the phosphates. Speaking of carbon dioxide, to get in more

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 in an applicable zone of what we're talking about, a lot of people are talking about ketogenesis,

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 ketosis diets, and things like that. I think I read on, I think it was your reference that

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 carbon dioxide was an NADH, it stimulated NADH oxidase. And that would be something,

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 besides supporting mitochondrial respiration in general, that would support the NAD+ to NADH

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 ratio? Yeah, I think it's the function as in Gilbert

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 Ling's sense, an adsorbent that pulls electrons out of the system and makes a protein more actively

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 acidic. I think it has that effect all through the cell. And one of the effects of that is to

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 let the cell release any excess water, so it has an anti-swelling effect.

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 And the retraction of the electrons by that cardinal adsorbent action on the proteins

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 shifts the whole electronic state of the cell, making electrons scarcer. And that ends up

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 shifting the ratio between NAD and NADH towards the oxidized NAD side. While I was thinking about

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 these processes of electrons in the cell, after reading Gilbert Ling, then I read some Ephraim

00:18:45.320 --> 00:18:52.920
 Racker and Albert Szent-Györgyi talking about electrons in cells. Szent-Györgyi's, one of his

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 books was called Bioelectronics. He was trying to account for the electronic behavior of cells. And

00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:11.240
 Ephraim Racker coined the phrase, "Nothing dehydrogenates." And Szent-Györgyi, working in

00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:18.840
 England in the 1920s, I think it was, studied related things that there seems to be electrons

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 or the equivalent of hydrogen from unidentified sources in living cells. Ephraim Racker removed

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 all of the known fuel sources from cells, but his indicators of reductants kept getting reduced.

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 And so he said the dehydrogenases were causing these chemicals to be reduced, but without

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 a known source, it seemed to be an endless supply of electrons. So he called them the nothing

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 dehydrogenases. And Szent-Györgyi theorized that these were some of the mobile electrons in the

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 cytoplasmic protein lipid systems and nucleic acid systems with some of his associates were

00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:10.600
 showing semi-conductive properties for both nucleic acids and proteins based on this mobility

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 of electrons. Normally, protein, fat, and carbohydrate are the substrates for the

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 electron flow. And you're saying that because the electrons were in the cell without any

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 substrates that led to Szent-Györgyi thinking that there was like an electric conductivity to the

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 cell that wasn't previously thought before? Yeah, that they might be proteins of the cell

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 might be catching electrons from the environment. And in the last 15 years, people are now talking

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 about the transplasma membrane oxidases. Many people are experimenting with these indicators

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 of dehydrogenase activity. They turn red or purple when they get reduced and using chemicals that

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 don't enter cells because they're strongly electrically negatively charged. They show

00:21:02.760 --> 00:21:10.520
 that oxygen is removing electrons from the cell, oxidizing NADH to NAD, taking electrons out and

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 changing color without entering the cell. So they're showing that cells don't need mitochondria

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 for oxidative metabolism. It can happen right at the surface of the cell. Someone designed cells

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 lacking the gene necessary to make mitochondria and still the cell respired.

00:21:26.760 --> 00:21:35.800
 That's really interesting. In your receptors, fields, and therapies 2014 newsletter,

00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:42.440
 I wanted to talk about the ketone body ratio. And I just realized that some people think that

00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:49.000
 the NADH should be increased to NAD plus. And so do you think that's where the confusion about the

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:56.360
 ketone body ratio is? For example, I think in keto acids as medicine by Veech, who's obviously a

00:21:56.360 --> 00:22:04.520
 pretty smart guy. He says beta hydroxybutyrate as a substrate increases NADH relative to NAD plus.

00:22:05.080 --> 00:22:12.600
 Yeah, that's where I absolutely disagree. And it involves everything, bioelectronics and

00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:18.680
 electrode physiology and everything. But I think Gilbert Ling might be the only person who would

00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:25.560
 agree with me on this. Oh, and Robert Becker of Body Electric, absolutely in agreement with him.

00:22:25.560 --> 00:22:32.760
 But May Wan Ho in her article on cancer as a redox disease, I think was the title. In that,

00:22:32.760 --> 00:22:39.480
 I think she makes the common mistake of seeing cancer as not having enough electrons for,

00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:46.520
 I think that's its essential problem. It has too many electrons in the form of too much NADH and

00:22:46.520 --> 00:22:51.880
 all of the pairs of redox, like too much lactic acid and not enough pyruvic acid. Everything

00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:59.800
 that is in balance is shifted in cancer heavily towards the lactic acid side. And the hydroxybutyric

00:22:59.800 --> 00:23:05.240
 acid is just one of those redox couples that can, if you get too much of it, shift you in the

00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:11.880
 direction of cancer. One of the experiments that May Wan Ho's article, "Cancer as a Redox Disease,"

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:20.680
 she cited a study in which the charge on a tumor was reversed that they applied. I think she cited

00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:27.560
 this article saying that they regressed the cancer by applying a negative field or it was measured

00:23:27.560 --> 00:23:34.680
 as having a positive charge rather than a negative charge. But Robert Becker and my own measurements

00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:43.080
 and many other people see a tumor or a cancer as an injury and inflammation. And the traditional

00:23:43.080 --> 00:23:50.200
 language for this kind of electric charge is called the injury potential. If you cut your skin

00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:57.640
 or any tissue that is damaged, it's increasing inflammation and lactic acid and so on. There's

00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:06.920
 a strong shift to electric negativity. And Gilbert Ling explained so-called resting electric potential,

00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:14.920
 which is highly negative in a healthy cell as a battery effect of the way you measure it

00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:21.480
 traditionally is with a concentrated, a 3 molar, I think it is, solution of potassium chloride.

00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:27.720
 And he said that just this high concentration is enough to account for the potential. And when you

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:34.120
 measure a cancer cell, you get very little charge when you poke an electron in it. But if you measure

00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:40.840
 outside of the cancer cell, you have this negative field. That's the injury potential. It's the same

00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:47.240
 as if you cut a healthy area and had an open wound, you would have a shift to the negative

00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:54.600
 electrical charge. And one of my projects in graduate school was cell electrophoresis. There

00:24:54.600 --> 00:25:01.160
 was a guy at the University of Oregon Medical School in Portland doing it on a variety of cells.

00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:10.360
 And so I built my own apparatus and put in cancer cells in one end of a little glass tube and a

00:25:10.360 --> 00:25:18.280
 battery, mild electric DC potential from one end of the glass tube to the other. And then with a

00:25:18.280 --> 00:25:24.360
 microscope, you would look at the cancer cells in the tube as you turned on the electric field.

00:25:24.360 --> 00:25:31.400
 And if the cell has a high surface negative charge, it moves quickly towards the positive

00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:36.840
 pole. And if it's almost neutral, it just sits there. And if it has a positive charge, it moves

00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:43.960
 towards the negative pole. And I got very clear evidence that the cancer cells moved towards the

00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:50.600
 positive pole. And other people with good apparatus, which I didn't have, have measured

00:25:50.600 --> 00:25:58.600
 highly malignant cancer cells, moderately malignant and mildly malignant non-metastasizing

00:25:58.600 --> 00:26:03.880
 cancer cells and found that the higher their surface negative charge, the more malignant the

00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:10.920
 cancer is. You don't measure it when you stick the electrode in because your reference electrode

00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:18.600
 is no different. The inside is no different from the outside. Where a healthy cell is oxidizing,

00:26:18.600 --> 00:26:25.400
 subtracting electrons, creating basically a positive, slightly acidic condition. And if you

00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:32.760
 poke one electrode into it, you disturb that and you get a difference between the oxidizing region

00:26:32.760 --> 00:26:39.240
 and the broken, not oxidizing region, which measures as a negative field. And there's six

00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:47.960
 years, so years of good biochemical background for why this happens. Dan Mazia, for a long time

00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:53.480
 at University of California, Berkeley, and I think at the Stanford Marine Biology Station

00:26:53.480 --> 00:27:02.440
 at Monterey, he, in the '50s, to understand the cell division process was staining cells

00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:08.440
 at different stages of growth. And he showed that the sulfhydryl groups, which are normally

00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:16.600
 oxidized to a fair degree, causing proteins to stick to each other by covalent sulfur-sulfur

00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:24.840
 bonds, which requires that the hydrogens be removed from sulfhydryl groups. Glutathione GSH,

00:27:24.840 --> 00:27:33.880
 if you oxidize two of them, take the Hs away, you get GSSG. And proteins are rich in sulfhydryl

00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:39.000
 groups. And so if you take away the hydrogens, they stick together. If you put the hydrogen back,

00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:44.760
 reduce the proteins, they become separated at that point, change their structure and become

00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:54.040
 more open and mobile. And Dan Mazia and associates were showing that there is a tremendous increase

00:27:54.040 --> 00:28:00.760
 in the reduced condition of very intense staining of sulfhydryl groups that appears

00:28:00.760 --> 00:28:06.520
 at the beginning of cell division and disappears when the cell division is completed. And

00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:14.040
 Szent-Györgyi was working on cells like muscles and nerves through the '40s and '50s and showing some

00:28:14.040 --> 00:28:21.080
 very analogous things in his theory of muscle contraction was that it was powered electronically

00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:27.960
 by the conduction of electrons through these semiconducting proteins. And just by accident,

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:35.480
 in connection with estrogen metabolism and quinone physiology or biochemistry that got

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:44.040
 Szent-Györgyi started on this, I was working along the estrogen side of the system in which estrogen

00:28:44.040 --> 00:28:51.160
 shifts away from quinone oxidative physiology to a reductive physiology and in extracting stuff

00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:58.440
 from liver, I was looking for ubiquinone-related things. And I found that vitamin E in a very pure

00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:06.760
 form with its more or less neutral sort of amber pale color and ubiquinone or other quinones with

00:29:06.760 --> 00:29:13.880
 their orange color. When I combined them, they turned instantly inky black. If you diluted it,

00:29:13.880 --> 00:29:20.680
 it was sort of a greenish black. And when I put dots of this black combination of the quinone

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:28.360
 and vitamin E on paper chromatography and passed a solvent up the paper, the vitamin E and the

00:29:28.360 --> 00:29:34.440
 quinone moved at different speeds and so they separated. It wasn't a covalent bond that was

00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:40.520
 causing this color change. The solvent pulled the vitamin E right away from the quinone,

00:29:40.520 --> 00:29:48.200
 restoring the pale color of the original material. That's called a donor-acceptor bond in which an

00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:56.040
 electron momentarily leaves the vitamin E and moves over for a very short time to the quinone

00:29:56.040 --> 00:30:01.800
 but then snaps back because the vitamin E has developed a positive charge in the absence.

00:30:01.800 --> 00:30:09.400
 And you get an oscillation of the electron which acts like a system of double bonds within

00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:16.680
 most pigment molecules. And that oscillating electron, it's strong enough to have a slight

00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:23.400
 binding influence. It's much weaker than a covalent bond because the electron isn't really

00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:31.400
 taken up stably by the quinone. And Szent-Györgyi used a variety of these donors and acceptors

00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:38.920
 in my pair, it was ubiquinone and vitamin E but he found many substances if they were close enough

00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:43.720
 to each other in their electronegativity, they could form this kind of a colored bond.

00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:52.760
 And he wondered why the liver is dark purple, blackish purple colored. If you try to extract

00:30:52.760 --> 00:31:00.200
 anything colored from the liver, grinding it up in alcohol, you immediately get a white,

00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:06.920
 white solid material with a slight tint from things like vitamin A and ubiquinone. But he was

00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:13.320
 saying, "Here's the living liver in a very dark, intensely pigment-like condition. When you kill

00:31:13.320 --> 00:31:19.720
 it, it's immediately colorless." And he was suggesting that it's a donor-acceptor relationship

00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:26.200
 between something and the protein or maybe the donor and acceptor at different points on the

00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:32.680
 protein with the electron moving along the protein and being able to accept light and create the

00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:39.480
 darkening effect. And he found that if he put in one of his, for example, a donor in a muscle

00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:45.400
 preparation, nothing would happen. If he put in the acceptor substance in the muscle preparation,

00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:52.920
 nothing happened. If he put in very unrelated electronegativities, nothing happened. But if

00:31:52.920 --> 00:32:00.280
 he put in a donor and acceptor pair with just the right relationship to each other, the muscle

00:32:00.280 --> 00:32:07.160
 contracted. And that was his argument that the muscle contraction is essentially an electronic

00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:13.560
 process and that the living state, such as in the liver, involves this type of conductivity and

00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:18.040
 light-absorbing property, but without contraction in the case of the liver.

00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:26.040
 You wrote somewhere that a group was using the estrogen myth to verify the nitric oxide myth,

00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:32.120
 then to verify the serotonin myth. And they were using a series of myths to substantiate

00:32:32.120 --> 00:32:39.240
 their claims. And that's what it sounds like, the NADH, NAD. The whole thing would go off the rails

00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:45.400
 if you thought that the NADH should be higher than NAD+ and then the whole view would be skewed.

00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:53.000
 Yeah. And it extends all the way to if the cancer cell and the nerve cell have this deficit or

00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:00.920
 excess of electrons, then you're making a statement about how your electrometer is working and even

00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:08.440
 about how your redox measurement and pH measuring meters are working. It involves a misinterpretation

00:33:09.080 --> 00:33:16.040
 all along the line. The electrode is misunderstood. The relationship between pH and redox

00:33:16.040 --> 00:33:23.720
 is misunderstood. So it's really... I tried making the argument a couple of times to professors.

00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:33.320
 For example, I said, "If the pH meter is working by protons, hydrogen ions, in fact, diffusing

00:33:33.320 --> 00:33:38.360
 through the piece of glass you call a membrane, why does it work when you fill it with mercury

00:33:38.360 --> 00:33:45.400
 atoms?" And they really liked that? Being challenged? Not much.

00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:52.520
 Well, Szent-Györgyi wasn't... I mean, I wasn't around, but he wasn't a fringe character saying

00:33:52.520 --> 00:33:57.320
 these things. And it sounds like he was getting a lot of things right. Why wasn't he taken

00:33:57.320 --> 00:34:05.640
 seriously at the time? Was his work not conducive to making products? Yeah. The commercial level of

00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:12.680
 science just couldn't do anything with him. And pretty much the same with Warburg. And I don't

00:34:12.680 --> 00:34:19.880
 think Warburg really paid enough attention to Szent-Györgyi. He was a more practical, concrete person

00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:24.760
 than Szent-Györgyi, but I think Szent-Györgyi was really on the right track. Everything that he

00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:30.840
 proposed practically was validated 30 or 40 years later. I think in his book, The Living State,

00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:38.280
 he said that nature never gets rid of anything and only builds on top of it. In an old interview,

00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:45.560
 you said that serotonin might be a very old hormone. And then yesterday I was reading that

00:34:45.560 --> 00:34:51.880
 prolactin also was thought to be a pretty old hormone. And I was pretty intrigued when you said

00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:58.920
 that originally about serotonin. And do you think of the hormones as having a layered effect in

00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:07.720
 evolution? Oh yeah. And that's the problem with therapies. They forget that when they fix one

00:35:07.720 --> 00:35:15.960
 layer, the organism can go wrong above and below it in many other ways. If they're thinking in

00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:22.920
 molecule acting locally on the receptor, they're forgetting the whole big picture of this electric

00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:30.040
 state. An excess of electrons, for example, will activate hormones at all of these levels,

00:35:30.040 --> 00:35:38.120
 the oldest and the newest in a coordinated way. And so for conventional drug therapy for any

00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:44.200
 disease, including cancer, becomes infinitely complicated. The fact that the organism is

00:35:44.200 --> 00:35:52.360
 coherent in May Wan Ho's sense makes the therapy basically possibly coherent and very simple,

00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:58.200
 something like changing the environment in a coherent and appropriate direction rather than

00:35:58.200 --> 00:36:03.960
 trying to, in a reductionist way, act on parts of the organism. If you change the

00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:12.280
 polar outside conditions, the Vernadski energy source and sink, then you're giving the organism

00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:18.120
 a better opportunity to refine and maintain its coherence. Do you look at the growth hormones

00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:22.600
 and the ones that inhibit oxidative metabolism as the oldest and then the ones that promote

00:36:22.600 --> 00:36:29.960
 differentiation and oxidative metabolism as newer? Yeah. And I think the hormones are all of them in

00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:37.640
 a sense, they're used on an ad hoc basis, whatever the organism has at hand, it will use. So I think

00:36:37.640 --> 00:36:43.800
 the healthy organism in a healthy environment in the Vernadski sense, something that's making good

00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:51.000
 energy available in that condition, you hardly need your hormones. The flow of energy is the

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:58.600
 whole thing and the way you use the energy, the proper application of your differentiated state,

00:36:58.600 --> 00:37:05.000
 that has all of the functions that the hormones can be used for. And since the hormones all have

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:11.320
 some harmful side effects, like when the pituitary was removed from animals, they lived several times

00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:17.080
 longer, showing that largely the reproductive related hormones were responsible for aging.

00:37:17.080 --> 00:37:24.200
 And if you can use the flow of energy as the organizing principle, then the movement of

00:37:24.200 --> 00:37:31.400
 electrons forming water and of oxygen and of fuel, such as sugars, forming carbon dioxide,

00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:38.200
 then the flow of carbon dioxide and water will be having the differentiating, structuring,

00:37:38.200 --> 00:37:44.760
 hormone like action. I think Karen asked you maybe a while ago in one of the 10 questions,

00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:50.600
 it was something like, do you see, is there like a necessity to aging? And you replied that you

00:37:50.600 --> 00:37:57.480
 hadn't seen any evidence of that. Is this kind of the Alexis Carroll, the heart mitochondria or the

00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:02.760
 cells that just kept thumping until his lab closed down? Is that kind of along the same lines of what

00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:07.720
 you're talking about? Yeah, I think it's our particular environment, more specifically,

00:38:07.720 --> 00:38:14.440
 the temperature and oxygen pressure of our environment. The temperature makes many of

00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:21.400
 the organisms produce unsaturated fat, but our brain development to use the energy that's available

00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:28.280
 doesn't like polyunsaturated fats. They oxidize and antagonize oxygen. They're contrary to the

00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:35.560
 flow of energy from sugar to carbon dioxide. So in this environment with relatively high oxygen

00:38:35.560 --> 00:38:43.080
 pressure and very unstable fats, the process of living has a kind of negative hormonal influence.

00:38:43.080 --> 00:38:51.240
 It's giving us signals to take emergency measures and those emergency measures don't let us realize

00:38:51.240 --> 00:38:56.440
 the proper Vernadsky organism. Do you think there's like a time in a person's life that

00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:02.440
 represents kind of that ideal metabolic state? Or do you think in our past that metabolic state

00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:09.800
 was realized versus this stress ridden culture of stress and adaptive hormones? People have observed

00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:19.160
 that newborn humans and cows, the newborn calf has an essentially saturated fat brain. People have

00:39:19.160 --> 00:39:24.920
 said this is dreadful that babies are born with an essential fatty acid deficiency in their brain,

00:39:25.560 --> 00:39:31.640
 but it happens that when you increase the unsaturated fats in the pregnant animal or

00:39:31.640 --> 00:39:38.840
 human, the brain is smaller and less functional at birth. And in the healthy situation where you're

00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:46.680
 born with a saturated tissue, as you eat these environmental fats, they are constantly slowing

00:39:46.680 --> 00:39:54.600
 your metabolism, constantly having an estrogen-like effect, tending to reduce the differentiated cell

00:39:54.600 --> 00:40:02.680
 turn everything into a sort of a fibrous lump eventually. The ideal state would be something

00:40:02.680 --> 00:40:11.080
 that could be foreseen from maybe an early fetus if you could keep the environment providing energy

00:40:11.080 --> 00:40:17.240
 and carbon dioxide and just the right amount of oxygen, but with fuels that weren't contaminated

00:40:17.240 --> 00:40:23.560
 with unsaturated fats and heavy metals, then we could see what the proper trajectory is for a

00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:29.400
 mammal-like people. I wanted to switch gears into, and let me know if you have to go and you can bail

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:37.560
 out at any time. I had like a couple of questions about antibiotics, thyroid brands, and yeah. But

00:40:37.560 --> 00:40:43.800
 I wanted to ask you, a lot of people are super interested in your take on antibiotics, just like

00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:51.080
 generally the macrolides, the tetracyclines, and penicillin, VK, and then is gas or diarrhea,

00:40:51.080 --> 00:40:59.640
 like how do you even know that you might benefit from an antibiotic? Experimenting is good. I was

00:40:59.640 --> 00:41:05.640
 prejudiced against medicine and so I was reluctant to ever use such things, but once I was sick and

00:41:05.640 --> 00:41:13.400
 the landlady gave me something and I had this characteristic penicillin odor in my mouth and

00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:20.040
 nose and it went with a kind of euphoria. And I've always noticed that just about the time I can

00:41:20.040 --> 00:41:26.360
 smell penicillin on my breath, there is this euphoric sense of well-being. And I think that

00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:32.440
 means that before that I was always in a slight state of stress and emergency from the whatever

00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:38.840
 bacteria were producing irritants and toxins. And just as soon as those stopped producing the

00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:45.320
 toxins, I would have this very pleasant euphoric sensation. I've noticed exactly what, I think you

00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:51.080
 wrote an email to somebody that you had the sensation and then I forget my first few experiences

00:41:51.080 --> 00:41:56.520
 I was watching for that as I was taking the penicillin and it happened and I was pretty

00:41:56.520 --> 00:42:01.720
 intrigued by it. One of the things that I'm interested in that I probably should explore

00:42:01.720 --> 00:42:07.560
 more but I couldn't find any specific information, but you maybe in the past, I don't know if you

00:42:07.560 --> 00:42:13.880
 feel the same way now, but you suggested two to four days of using penicillin versus a longer

00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:18.440
 dose of that. Was that something you had figured out or what was like kind of the rationale behind

00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:26.680
 that? I think it was eating a sandwich and mangoes in Mexico. I got a very bad intestinal condition

00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:34.760
 and abscess on my jaw and I realized there was a very quick connection between intestinal

00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:43.480
 inflammation and oral health. Later, I knew a dentist at some of the conferences or the molecular

00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:50.120
 meetings and such, Earl Cleary, who no one seemed to pay any attention to it. He gave presentations

00:42:50.120 --> 00:42:57.880
 on various things but he said that he had stopped his very profitable practice treating periodontal

00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:05.480
 disease with surgery. He said now he just gives them a laxative and he doesn't have to do periodontal

00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:11.720
 surgery. So if the bowels aren't right and your teeth are something's wrong with your teeth,

00:43:11.720 --> 00:43:17.480
 that could be a big indicator. Yeah. And for something, if you have a big intestinal and

00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:24.280
 massive putrid material, it can take two or three days before moderate dose of penicillin can kill

00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:31.800
 that off. I get this question like every day. Do you have any confidence in other current thyroid

00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:37.480
 brands because Cynoplus and Cynomel are not being sold anymore? I know you don't want to endorse any

00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:42.360
 specific product but is there anything out right now that you think is maybe a good substitute?

00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:50.360
 For a while in Mexico when I wasn't able to get Cynoplus or Cynomel, I found other brands that

00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:59.640
 were regularly sold there. One was Proloid S and Proloid used to be the concentrated thyroblobulin,

00:43:59.640 --> 00:44:06.040
 the colloid material without the rest of the gland but it was at least as good as the old

00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:13.160
 Armour product. But then like Armour created their thyrolar as a synthetic equivalent,

00:44:13.160 --> 00:44:19.640
 Proloid created Proloid S and I think that's still available at least somewhere in the world.

00:44:19.640 --> 00:44:26.040
 And Novoterral is another of the synthetic imitations except it has a five to one ratio

00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:31.640
 of T4 to T3 instead of the more ideal four to one or three to one. Do you know any replacement for

00:44:31.640 --> 00:44:40.280
 Sinomel like T3 Pro is mentioned frequently? That's the Saudi company, Profound Pharmaceutical

00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:46.840
 I think. Maybe, I'm not sure. I think that's the one I used for about a week and it did feel pretty

00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:54.200
 normal to me so I would guess that it's what they advertise it to be. Synthetic versus desiccated,

00:44:54.200 --> 00:45:00.840
 you would expect the desiccated like a WP thyroid to work much slower than the synthetic version if

00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.840
 it was a good synthetic? A little slower. A little slower but it's not a big deal? It only takes

00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:10.600
 two or three hours to digest. Can you explain how you make your coffee because a lot of people are

00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:19.960
 extremely interested? Really, whatever is convenient. Usually filling a paper filter,

00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:27.480
 sometimes a coffee sock but currently the little paper cones. When the water is getting hot,

00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:33.080
 I start and moisten the coffee without really getting it very hot and then as the water gets

00:45:33.080 --> 00:45:41.240
 hotter and hotter, I keep adding. So the first coffee that drips through is cool and very mild

00:45:41.240 --> 00:45:47.480
 tasting, very little caffeine in it but it doesn't evaporate or degrade some of the delicate

00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:54.120
 aldehyde type flavor molecules. Supposedly, they're the most antioxidant part and they're

00:45:54.840 --> 00:46:01.640
 destroyed if you put the boiling water directly onto the grounds. So I like to get some of the

00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:08.120
 mild low temperature extract for flavor and then put a little of the fully boiling water at the

00:46:08.120 --> 00:46:14.440
 very end to get all the caffeine. So you do boil it at the end? Yeah, just the last half cup or so

00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:20.280
 of water. At what point is the magnesium most readily available? Like what temperature? I think

00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:26.760
 it comes out all along the way. I think it's loose so you get it even if you soak it and make cold

00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:34.520
 coffee, you're getting magnesium and the so-called antioxidants. And what would be a ratio for strong

00:46:34.520 --> 00:46:42.680
 coffee like the grounds versus water for you? I've never weighed it but a pound of coffee doesn't

00:46:42.680 --> 00:46:49.960
 last very long. That's obviously like a big thing to your approach, right? Because I mean,

00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:55.800
 you often say you're drinking five cups of coffee. Like to me, that's always demonstrated that you

00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:03.160
 were very pro-food and we're trying to get the most out of the normal easily accessible foods

00:47:03.160 --> 00:47:10.760
 versus some complicated regimen of tons of pills. Yeah, partly it's because all of the manufacturing

00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:18.440
 processes, the industry has gone towards profit and cheapness and vitamin E is no longer anything

00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:25.320
 like it was 70 or 80 years ago. The stuff I used in the lab that reacted with the ubiquinone to

00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:31.400
 produce the black color, I tried that with various more recent types of vitamin E and didn't work.

00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:37.720
 So we know that they're taking out different fractions from the vitamin E and that wax-like,

00:47:37.720 --> 00:47:45.720
 highly saturated fatty acids, I think a big part of why the old vitamin E in the 1930s and 40s,

00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:53.720
 why it was so much more therapeutic than the more recent vitamin E studies that show it's really

00:47:53.720 --> 00:47:59.560
 nothing but an antioxidant that doesn't have any of those extremely therapeutic effects that it did

00:47:59.560 --> 00:48:05.400
 60 years ago. Do you use Folgers coffee? Is that what you like? No, there's a guy in town

00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:12.920
 who scorches his own beans and it's just whatever he has that tastes good. So you're not looking

00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:19.880
 for anything specific or how they're grown or anything? Oh yeah, it varies. Panamanian coffee

00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:29.480
 is the worst. Awesome, Ray. I don't know if you have to go, but I could keep talking to you. I

00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:34.440
 wanted to talk about, I'm sad we didn't really get to your newsletter, but if you want to talk about

00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:38.440
 it, I'd love to talk about it. But if you have to go, I understand. But I was just going to ask you

00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.840
 what you were working on next and if you wanted to talk about your newsletter. Oh, well, the next

00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:49.560
 newsletter, I think I'll write about cancer and probably some of this electronic stuff. The cancer

00:48:49.560 --> 00:48:55.240
 industry, I think, is starting to realize some of the problems. There are people still saying,

00:48:55.240 --> 00:49:01.480
 "No, it's still the way it always was." But I think it was last week in JAMA, there was an article

00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:07.960
 on questioning whether so much emphasis on breast mammograms was really productive. And the

00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:14.760
 prostate doctors in the '90s, someone did a survey and asked these specialists, urologists,

00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:20.440
 what they would do if they had prostate cancer themselves. And a majority of them said they

00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:30.440
 wouldn't do anything. And there have been other parallel studies. But before that came out,

00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:36.920
 quite a few doctors started letting their patients avoid surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy for the

00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:45.960
 prostate cancer. Before that, in the '80s, the prostate-specific antigen was just being researched.

00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:52.200
 And at that time, the mortality, I think it was 20 per 100,000 population per year.

00:49:52.200 --> 00:50:00.200
 Then they discovered the PSA and told everyone to have that measured. And they found lots of people

00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:09.080
 with very high PSA and told them to have biopsies. And so suddenly, the diagnostic rate for prostate

00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:17.080
 cancer surged hugely. But that isn't the important thing. By 1992, the death rate from prostate

00:50:17.080 --> 00:50:26.120
 cancer in just about 10 years increased 50% to 30 per 100,000. So the more diagnosis and treatment

00:50:26.120 --> 00:50:31.880
 in that situation really very clearly showed that the more medicine you have, the more deaths you

00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:39.640
 have. And John Goffman, the radiation specialist, he did nationwide statistical studies and showed

00:50:39.640 --> 00:50:45.720
 that breast cancer and heart disease correspond very closely to the access to medicine. So that

00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:53.240
 with the rich area around Marin in California, I think it was at that time the highest cancer

00:50:53.240 --> 00:51:01.160
 mortality in the US. West Virginia was the lowest. - What was it, Harding Jones that went around the

00:51:01.160 --> 00:51:04.920
 world and thought that if you just did nothing, you'd live a longer and healthier life?

00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:15.000
 - Yeah. And currently, Gershom Zajcek is saying something very similar. He has suggested that

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:22.120
 the tumor itself might be an ad hoc organ trying to defend the body against whatever is the problem.

00:51:22.120 --> 00:51:28.440
 For example, he showed studies where when a mole or a melanoma was removed, suddenly,

00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:36.360
 they popped up all over the body. And knowing that sort of study, a couple of times,

00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:43.640
 doctors told me that I definitely had to have a biopsy of a big, ugly mole. And I happened to

00:51:43.640 --> 00:51:50.040
 be experimenting with DHEA at one time just after a doctor had mentioned that. And just two or three

00:51:50.040 --> 00:51:55.960
 days after I had been fooling around with some DHEA, the mole swelled up like a maraschino cherry

00:51:55.960 --> 00:52:04.280
 and basically ate itself up. And so every time after that one, I would get a diagnosable melanoma,

00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:11.320
 big, ugly, huge. One thing was as big as a jumbo olive in front of my ear. And each time I got one

00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:17.560
 of those, I would just put a little bit of either progesterone or DHEA and vitamin E on the skin

00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:23.240
 near it, not touching it with it. But within a few days, those things would sometimes within

00:52:23.240 --> 00:52:28.840
 hours, they would radically change. For example, a color would change from spotty blue and white to

00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:34.840
 a nice tan color or the big black thing would start shrinking. And always anywhere from one

00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:41.000
 day to disappearing to two weeks, the biggest, the one like a jumbo olive took almost two weeks.

00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:47.400
 But the last little bit of it was like a gray, green, little, uh, dry mushroom, which fell off,

00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:53.320
 leaving no scar. That's it for me, Ray. Thank you. Did, did you want to say anything else before?

00:52:53.320 --> 00:53:00.760
 Ray, thank you so much. It's a total pleasure. Thank you. Uh, have a great rest of your day

00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:03.880
 and I'll talk to you soon. Okay. Very good. Thank you. Okay. Bye.

00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:15.080
 That's going to conclude this week's episode. I'd like to thank Ray again for talking with me today,

00:53:15.080 --> 00:53:19.640
 along with my patrons for their support of the show and all the content I produce. If you enjoyed

00:53:19.640 --> 00:53:24.360
 the episode, please hit that like button on YouTube, or if you're listening elsewhere,

00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:29.800
 just share it with a friend. Also, please leave any comments or criticisms in the comment section

00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:34.040
 and I'll try to get to them as well. Thank you so much for listening. We have an amazing

00:53:34.040 --> 00:53:39.560
 listenership and I appreciate, uh, just everybody listening and giving me positive feedback about it.

00:53:39.560 --> 00:53:49.400
 So thanks again. I'll talk to you guys soon. Take care.

00:53:49.400 --> 00:54:09.240
 Bye. Bye.

00:54:09.240 --> 00:54:14.880
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