WEBVTT 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:06.780 Today's going to be another exciting discussion, deep dive into nutrition, learning together, 0:00:06.780 --> 0:00:09.200 just having a free flow conversation. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.940 And I'm joined by two individuals who tell you it's going to be a little hard for me 0:00:12.940 --> 0:00:17.880 to keep up, but I'm just going to try to catch a tiger by its tail and learn a little bit 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:22.240 and hopefully try to translate it to our audience because you guys go into the weeds and that's 0:00:22.240 --> 0:00:30.280 good, we need that. And to do so, we have a discussion today on the topic of nutrition, particularly the issue of 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:36.560 seed oils, and we're joined by Brad Marshall of FireInABottle.net and Dr. 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:42.000 Ray Peat. You can visit Dr. Ray Peat's website, raypeat.com, and also join his 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:47.480 newsletter. So Brad and Dr. Peat, thank you for joining us. 0:00:47.480 --> 0:00:48.480 Well, thanks for having us. 0:00:48.480 --> 0:00:50.180 I'm excited for the opportunity. 0:00:51.460 --> 0:00:52.920 Very good. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:54.560 Dr. Peat, I wanted to start with you, 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.360 just some open questions to kind of get us thinking, 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:01.720 what is the ideal diet for a child? 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.280 You know, when you're thinking about raising a child, 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:09.520 I know my audience is a lot of younger people in their 20s, 30s, maybe they're 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.360 starting a family and maybe they found this podcast because they're thinking 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:18.120 okay I just don't know where to go. Some people are telling it's all about this 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:24.120 or that, it's keto, it's plant-based, it's this or that and is there a 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.760 little shorthand guidance you might be able to have for our audience, Dr. 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.680 Peat, about what is the best ideal diet for raising and upbringing a young child into 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:34.680 the world? 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:39.320 Dr. Peat Wilkinson It depends on the age. 0:01:39.320 --> 0:01:47.040 Milk is the ideal food until they're about a year old. At birth, because of the effects 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.840 of the different oxygen tension 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.600 and higher estrogen and so on, 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:58.600 at birth the baby is overloaded with iron. 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.220 And so milk is very low in iron 0:02:03.220 --> 0:02:08.600 to allow the baby to grow into its iron. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:25.000 And so the apparent iron deficiency of milk is just right. We don't want to listen to the experts that say 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:31.200 since plain simple milk is low in iron, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.300 a baby needs supplements. 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:40.680 The high estrogen that increases during a woman's pregnancy 0:02:42.640 --> 0:02:45.000 has a very powerful effect. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.680 Even on borderline iron intake, 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.280 her body is going to load up on iron 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.840 under the effects of estrogen. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:00.840 It becomes nine or 10 times as efficient as a man's body 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.640 at extracting iron from food. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:10.000 And that guarantees that essentially all babies 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:15.000 are going to be born with an excess of iron. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:20.000 And at about a year of age, 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:25.000 they will have grown into their overload on iron, 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.320 and so they can start eating a mixed diet 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.120 even before a year if it isn't 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.920 iron content food like meat. 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.000 The metabolic rate is extremely high in newborns, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:54.440 partly or largely because of the absence 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.320 of polyunsaturated fats in their tissues. 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:07.200 By the common test of so-called essential fatty acids, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.640 almost all babies are born deficient 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.360 in the so-called essential fatty acids, but in fact, that's ideal for metabolism and the brain. 0:04:20.280 --> 0:04:24.940 As soon as a baby or an animal is born, 0:04:26.860 --> 0:04:31.600 the exposure, like a calf, 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:37.040 starts growth on milk 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.080 with a relatively low content of polyunsaturated fats. 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:53.680 As they mature and start eating other foods, their tissue starts loading up on PUFA. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:58.960 Same happens in babies that are down on a mixed diet. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.740 Their tissues progressively load up 0:05:03.740 --> 0:05:14.640 on polyunsaturated fats and that increases, but the fats from 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:21.000 the environment are diluted gradually by the growth of the body. 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:28.640 So like the... And where are kids, where are children getting a lot of their PUFAs in the 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:38.400 environment, you're saying? Yeah, from foods other than milk. And so as they shift to more 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:48.680 environmental foods rather than milk, their PUFA content increases, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:53.080 but as long as their body is increasing in volume, 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.520 that is a slow increase. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.680 In the 20s, when growth slows down greatly, 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:10.680 the rate of accumulation of PUFA in the tissues accelerates. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:25.000 So by middle age, people have a very high content of tissue PUFA and that increases into old age 0:06:25.020 --> 0:06:29.840 and the degenerating demented brain 0:06:29.840 --> 0:06:34.840 has a very high level of polyunsaturated esters 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:45.960 of cholesterol which lowers the free cholesterol 0:06:46.260 --> 0:06:56.740 in the brain and so impairs all of the metabolic processes that free cholesterol should participate in. 0:06:56.740 --> 0:07:11.580 And as that lifelong accumulation of PUFA continues, the metabolic rate is like a mirror image of the PUFA concentration. 0:07:11.580 --> 0:07:31.840 Baby has a very high calorie consumption and CO2 production, heat production, but by middle and old age, the heat production and caloric requirements are much, much lower. 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:40.920 So you tend to get fat unless you sharply reduce your calorie intake after middle age. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:47.800 So, if you're at that one-year-old stage and you said you're introducing mixed foods from 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:55.960 one to two to three to four, what are the best dietary principles to follow in the proper 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:12.160 nourishment of a child to very high in PUFA. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:22.080 A few tropical nuts are safe as far as PUFA go. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.000 Fatty fish are another source. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.640 They talk about the fish fats as being needed in the brain 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:37.960 because the adult and old brain has such a high content 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.120 of what we think of as fish oils, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:48.160 the N minus three highly unsaturated fatty acids, 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.480 but those are exactly corresponding 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:57.560 to the decreased cognitive ability 0:08:58.560 --> 0:09:00.640 and decreased metabolic rate. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.760 And so, even though they say 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:42.260 rate. And so even though they say the PUFA N-3 long chains are brain foods, they're exactly fat seeds and especially fish, cold water fish with a high fat content should be avoided. Should children be, should fruit or sugars, you know, table sugar or fruit, should that 0:09:42.260 --> 0:09:45.360 be limited for children or should that basically be to whatever 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:46.360 the child desires? 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.800 Yeah, basically what they desire. 0:09:49.800 --> 0:10:14.320 And traditionally oatmeal was one of the first things to introduce into a child's diet and that's not terribly high in PUFA but at least it's very high in carbohydrate. 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:27.560 And during gestation, the brain develops pretty much in proportion to the availability of fructose and glucose. 0:10:28.940 --> 0:10:33.940 And the more you displace those by fats, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.400 the more you tend to slow metabolism. 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:44.400 So all sorts of carbohydrate, if you take into account 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:56.000 their relative lack of PUFA, all of those are brain-activating foods, especially fruits. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:02.000 So, is it, I mean, there's the common adage that people, parents are worried about their 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:05.340 kids eating too much candy, but if you've got, 0:11:05.340 --> 0:11:07.940 I mean, is it okay for kids to eat candy a lot? 0:11:07.940 --> 0:11:09.900 I mean, I know there's a lot of ingredients in there. 0:11:09.900 --> 0:11:12.480 I mean, assuming you had, you know, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.100 a candy with a good fat, you know, 0:11:15.100 --> 0:11:17.220 and lots of sugar and table sugar added, 0:11:17.220 --> 0:11:19.660 is that okay for kids to eat to their satiation 0:11:19.660 --> 0:11:21.220 or is that not good? 0:11:21.220 --> 0:11:31.120 Well, they should tend to eat it in batches, not keep it in their mouth a long time and 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:39.600 support cavities, but if you eat a lot of it and then rinse your mouth, that's fine. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:40.600 Wow. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:41.600 That's interesting. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:50.800 So it's really - that's something that I think is very interesting for folks who there's there's a lot of you know conventional 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.200 wisdom that would say you know you're one of the essential things you've got 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.920 to do if you want to be nutritionally conscious for your children young 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:07.720 children is to limit their access to you know table sugar type foods and candies and things like that. Yeah. That, that pretty much grew up, uh, 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:12.160 along with the cholesterol myth, uh, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.480 in the early 1950s, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.240 the seed oil industry was seriously 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.960 damaged by the petroleum chemists who 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.600 learned how to make paint and plastics out of petroleum 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:38.360 and so they didn't need the seed oils. And so instead of using the polyunsaturated seed 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:50.360 oils for paint and varnish, they decided to sell them as human food and pig food, for example, because 0:12:50.360 --> 0:13:11.720 they found that high-proof soybeans and corn were ideal for fattening pigs cheaply for market because of the cheapness of producing weight as fat 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.360 and general growth. 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:31.640 But the nutritionists working on how to fatten a pig took the same information. The rate of growth was the center of what a nutrition is supposed 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:48.240 to do. A vitamin that makes you put on weight faster was evaluated. You would give an extract of food and if it made you grow faster, then they would look 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:54.200 for which component it was and identify that as a vitamin. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:14:07.400 But that blurring between fattening pigs and feeding people caused lots of problems. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:12.400 But the seed oil industry, to convince people 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.720 that they weren't going to just get fat like pigs, 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.960 that there had to be a reason to make people 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:32.880 eat the paint stock, the previous seed oils that had been used industrially. 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:54.800 And to do that, they resurrected the work of the Burrs from 1929 and 30 claiming that the PUFA are essential nutrients. That was 0:14:54.800 --> 0:15:07.760 multiply debunked all through the 30s and 40s. There was nothing left of the Burr's claims. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:18.640 But the seed oil industry brought back supporters of that doctrine and said they simply ignored 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:25.000 the disproofs of George Burr's experiments and said, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:30.400 if the polyunsaturated are essential nutrients, 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.300 then the more you eat, the better. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:39.320 And so they looked for a reason for getting people 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.840 to eat larger amounts of polyunsaturated fats 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.680 that wouldn't do if they would eat a gram a day, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:53.680 which would be implied by the Burrs' research, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:56.360 even though that was wrong. 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.560 Wouldn't do the industry any good 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.480 if people met their nutritional needs 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.560 with just one gram a day. 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:16.560 So they said the more you eat the better because, and then they connected it to the fact that 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:33.000 these toxic oils lower your cholesterol and they resurrected some other failed research claiming that cholesterol caused heart disease. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:45.000 It had clearly been established in the 1930s that things that cause heart disease 0:16:45.220 --> 0:16:50.220 cause you to defensively make more cholesterol protectively. 0:16:54.140 --> 0:16:57.480 Things like polyunsaturated fats 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:01.180 that inhibit your thyroid function. 0:17:02.260 --> 0:17:09.600 Your metabolic rate goes down as you eat the PUFA, partly because your 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:17.520 thyroid hormone simply isn't available as it should be. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:25.000 And so, eating the seed oils lowers your thyroid function, 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.400 and the thyroid function lowering the metabolic rate 0:17:34.380 --> 0:17:39.380 requires a defensive adaptation to raise the cholesterol, 0:17:41.540 --> 0:17:43.560 but it's the low thyroid 0:17:49.320 --> 0:18:12.740 and the elevated polyunsaturated fats that are damaging the blood vessels, to produce the defensive systems against heart disease 0:18:12.740 --> 0:18:19.520 increase cholesterol so you can make more defensive hormones 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:24.960 and compensate to bring up your metabolic rate. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:25.000 And so they got the situation exactly backwards. to bring up your metabolic rate. 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:33.200 And so they got the situation exactly backwards. The PUFA do lower cholesterol, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.200 but they do it by creating a heart disease 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.900 supporting condition. 0:18:43.220 --> 0:18:56.240 And that shift to fear cholesterol, then a professor Yudkin wrote a book saying 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:05.000 it isn't saturated fats that cause cholesterol to rise, it's sugar. 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:10.280 And in fact, sugar is part of the defensive system 0:19:11.120 --> 0:19:15.160 that helps you overcome the suppressive 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.840 metabolic effect of the PUFA. 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:22.840 The sugar helps to restore your cholesterol system, 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.580 your active pro-respiratory DHEA, 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.980 pregnenolone and progesterone, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:37.120 and it protects the cells, prevent heart disease. 0:19:37.120 --> 0:19:41.960 So the fear of saturated fats 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.000 because they simply are not PUFA, 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:48.660 which they wanted to sell. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:54.680 That extended to the sugars 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.240 which support the saturated fats 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.860 and oppose, protect against the PUFA. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:16.080 And so the teaching parents to starve their kids for sugar came about right after the phony 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.120 cholesterol theory of heart disease. 0:20:18.120 --> 0:20:19.120 Right. 0:20:19.120 --> 0:20:24.020 So there's a lot of confusing paradigms on top of each other where we stand today from 0:20:24.020 --> 0:20:25.760 your position. 0:20:31.120 --> 0:20:35.680 Why is it that if sugar rots your teeth and rots your face out, why would it be healthy though? You know, you said you got to swallow quickly and wash your mouth out. I mean, 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.680 is that really something we should be eating at that level if it rots your face? 0:20:54.600 --> 0:21:05.000 The problem with cavities is that other things in our metabolism, things that suppress thyroid, such as PUFA, change the composition of our saliva and the saliva should be very antiseptic. 0:21:06.340 --> 0:21:11.340 And with the overall pattern of the diet, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.960 our saliva has lost the antiseptic quality 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.400 that kills mouth bacteria. 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:27.500 So does that mean, and maybe, maybe I'm over assuming here, but does that 0:21:27.500 --> 0:21:33.380 mean that if a child was not introduced to these high PUFA foods, they avoided the fatty 0:21:33.380 --> 0:21:41.380 fish, they avoided the seed oils, they avoid the nuts with these high PUFA foods, does 0:21:41.380 --> 0:21:45.840 that mean that if they were to eat a high carbohydrate diet, high table sugar even, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.640 that there would be less likelihood of cavities coming or no? 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:54.640 Dr. John O'Connor Well, tropical people very generally eat a 0:21:54.640 --> 0:22:10.000 high carbohydrate diet and very generally, if they're on their traditional diet have extremely good teeth, but when they shift to a diet such as beans 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:21.920 and tortillas, nutritionally deficient and higher in PUFA from the beans, then the problem 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:27.500 of tooth decay becomes horrible. So it's nutritional deficiency plus PUFA 0:22:27.500 --> 0:22:32.500 that is the foundation for a high sugar diet 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.100 to cause cavities, is that what you're saying? 0:22:35.100 --> 0:22:35.940 Yeah. 0:22:35.940 --> 0:22:36.780 Okay. 0:22:36.780 --> 0:22:40.300 And that works largely through the composition 0:22:40.300 --> 0:22:45.000 of the saliva and its loss of antiseptic function. 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:49.900 So Brad, I wanna bring you in. 0:22:49.900 --> 0:22:50.820 Any thoughts first? 0:22:50.820 --> 0:22:52.420 I wanted to ask you about the kid diet thing, 0:22:52.420 --> 0:22:53.560 but I wanna go back and just let, 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:54.720 is there anything you heard 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.800 that you wanna ask about or talk about? 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.560 Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting to hear, 0:23:02.620 --> 0:23:08.640 you know, Dr. Peat's historical analysis of sort of 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:16.480 the early days of, you know, the vegetable oil industry. You know, I'm not 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:21.680 old enough to remember a lot of those things, and so that I think that's 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:26.800 really valuable insight, right, that Dr. Peat is bringing there is how did we 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:33.840 sort of, how did we get here, right? And I think that is a very interesting insight that at one 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:39.760 point, you know, vegetable oils were made into paint or linoleum, and then that's, they lost 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:44.240 that market, and that's when they said, hey, you know, let's, maybe we can sell this to people. 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:52.680 market and that's when they said, hey, you know, let's maybe we can sell this to people. So you know, that's a nice little anecdote and I'm sure that it's true, you know. 0:23:52.680 --> 0:24:05.000 And so I think that's a very interesting and valuable part of this whole discussion. I'm not nearly the expert on child nutrition 0:24:06.120 --> 0:24:10.920 that Dr. Peat probably is. 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:12.780 I don't have kids of my own, 0:24:12.780 --> 0:24:16.960 and I tend to spend my time thinking more 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:20.880 about obese adults than I do about raising children, 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.760 although I've raised a lot of piglets. 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:33.500 But just, you are a pig farmer pig farmers you have some connection to the reason why i want to bring it up is because i think having a starting point with a tangible. 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:35.640 Issue that. 0:24:36.140 --> 0:24:43.440 That you know where the rubber meets the road okay we're talking about theory it becomes okay how we gonna raise generation we have an obesity epidemic. 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:45.920 okay, how are we going to raise the generation? We have an obesity epidemic. And so I want to know, 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:56.960 it's like a whodunit mystery novel for me. Whodunit, where does this go? Is it the sugar? Is it the carbs? Is it the meat? Is it the puffas? Is it just seed oils? Or is Dr. Peat right that 0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:02.320 the nuts and the high puffa fish needs to be avoided? I want to figure this out because we 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:07.200 have an obesity epidemic for children. And if we solve that, then we can kind of know 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:09.360 where we're building the next generation. 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:12.760 Right, I mean, here's what I will say is that, 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:17.760 so I'm also a student of, I like looking at cultures 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:24.220 around the world and I know that a lot of grain eating 0:25:24.220 --> 0:25:25.000 cultures in particular, 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.400 especially like rice eating cultures in Asia, 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:31.160 or let's say the Mayans in Mexico 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:32.800 who eat primarily corn, right? 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.680 And so these are very grain-based cultures. 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.440 And if you look at, you know, 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.160 Dr. Peat was talking about metabolic rate. 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.700 If you look at these cultures 0:25:43.700 --> 0:25:45.000 where they're feeding children 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:49.640 primarily relatively low PUFA grains, 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:52.640 they have very high metabolic rates, 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:55.540 just as Dr. Peat suggests. 0:25:55.540 --> 0:25:57.560 In fact, the whole cultures 0:25:57.560 --> 0:25:59.280 have very high metabolic rates, right? 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:02.400 And so if you look at time- 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:03.720 What are low PUFA grains? 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:04.560 What do you think? 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:05.400 Right? So most time, right? What are low PUFA grains? What do you think? Rice? 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:06.860 So most grains, right. 0:26:06.860 --> 0:26:09.580 So most grains are very low in, 0:26:10.660 --> 0:26:12.420 they're very low in fat overall. 0:26:12.420 --> 0:26:13.960 A lot of the fat that is there is PUFA. 0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:16.980 So like rice, so like if people eat white rice, 0:26:16.980 --> 0:26:20.780 we're talking like that's a very low PUFA food 0:26:20.780 --> 0:26:23.820 because most of the PUFA that there is 0:26:23.820 --> 0:26:26.640 is in the bran of the rice, 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:28.980 and that gets removed when you make it into white rice. 0:26:28.980 --> 0:26:31.380 And so rice is low in poofa to begin with, 0:26:31.380 --> 0:26:33.740 but when you eat white rice, it's even lower. 0:26:33.740 --> 0:26:37.180 It's like, it's 1%, or I think it's well under 1% 0:26:37.180 --> 0:26:39.180 polyunsaturated fat by weight. 0:26:39.180 --> 0:26:42.180 And so you're talking, it's very, very low. 0:26:42.180 --> 0:26:44.780 And so like on my blog, I talk about this study 0:26:44.780 --> 0:26:48.640 about Thai rice farmers, and they have just 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:50.800 through the roof metabolic rates. 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:52.920 Like the highest metabolic rate that I've seen 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.020 in any metabolic study in the world 0:26:55.020 --> 0:26:58.680 is in female rice farmers in Thailand. 0:26:58.680 --> 0:26:59.600 But the same thing is true. 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:03.520 Like they studied the Mayans in the 1930s, 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:07.100 and they showed that the Mayans in the 1930s, and they showed that the Mayans in the 1930s had 0:27:07.100 --> 0:27:12.060 metabolic rates that were significantly elevated versus the metabolic rates of 0:27:12.060 --> 0:27:16.660 Americans. And this is another case where, you know, 90% of their calories are 0:27:16.660 --> 0:27:21.860 coming from corn, and corn has more PUFA than rice does, but still when you make 0:27:21.860 --> 0:27:26.360 it into the masa, you remove the, this is the, this is the refrajar, 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:28.840 this means rubbing, you remove the, 0:27:28.840 --> 0:27:31.340 you soak the corn in an alkaline solution, 0:27:31.340 --> 0:27:36.060 and then you remove the husks and the germ, 0:27:36.060 --> 0:27:37.480 and that's where a lot of the oil is. 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:40.280 So the, when you eat the tortillas, it has, 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.960 the traditional processing methods of Mayans, right, 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:47.080 who are one of the earliest 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:51.120 people in the world to domesticate corn, like they remove a lot of the pufa in the natural 0:27:51.120 --> 0:27:53.360 normal processing. 0:27:53.360 --> 0:27:57.240 And so that's why I also sometimes people knee jerk say, well, all food processing is 0:27:57.240 --> 0:27:58.240 bad. 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.680 And I'm like, well, no, I think traditional food processing is actually very smart in 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:05.520 what they do because people don't eat, you know, the mines didn't eat whole, 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:06.900 don't eat whole kernel corn, right? 0:28:06.900 --> 0:28:10.940 They removed the germ first and that's where the oil is. 0:28:10.940 --> 0:28:12.680 And so they make tortillas out of that. 0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:14.460 And again, they had higher, 0:28:14.460 --> 0:28:17.860 they had very high metabolic rates in the 1930s. 0:28:17.860 --> 0:28:19.480 And I like the point you illustrate 0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:21.500 about your research in Native Americans, 0:28:21.500 --> 0:28:23.260 the West Coast and the East Coast, 0:28:23.260 --> 0:28:26.520 both using methods to reduce PUFA, right, for their acorn oil? 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:33.560 Exactly. So, yeah, so East Coast and West Coast, we have first account narratives of 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.200 Native Americans on the East Coast and the West Coast, both removing acorn oil. 0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:37.200 And what period of history is this? 0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:43.400 Well, I mean, I don't know the exact dates of those, but this would have been 1700s, 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:48.560 or yeah, 1700s probably, both of those anecdotes. 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:52.560 In the 1930s, George Creil did studies 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.120 around the world of metabolic rates, 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:04.120 actually measuring oxygen consumption and CO2 production. 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:05.040 oxygen consumption and CO2 production. 0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:11.040 And he found that the American culture 0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:16.200 was outstanding in being far below 0:29:19.740 --> 0:29:24.740 the traditional cultures in metabolic rate. Many of the so-called relatively undeveloped cultures 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:31.200 Many of the so-called relatively undeveloped cultures had a metabolic rate 50% higher than Americans. 0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:41.120 In US medicine, that would be considered pathologically hypermetabolic. 0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:45.440 That was a rate that went with good health traditionally. 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.440 What was his name? 0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:50.760 George W. Krile, Sr. 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:54.000 Spell his last name. 0:29:54.000 --> 0:30:02.000 He was a famous surgeon and physiologist from 1900 until his death. 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:03.000 Right. 0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:05.440 No, I just want to make sure I have 0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:09.840 his name right. Do you know the spelling of his last name? 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:15.440 CRILE. CRILE, okay. 0:30:15.940 --> 0:30:19.140 No, I mean that sounds fascinating, but it's not, but 0:30:19.140 --> 0:30:23.860 that is very much in line with 0:30:23.860 --> 0:30:25.000 what we see. 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:29.680 And I've talked about a lot of my blog 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:31.120 about the history of metabolic rates. 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:33.280 And one of the things that I noticed 0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:38.280 is in the metabolic community in the 1930s, 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:42.420 this kind of controversy broke out 0:30:42.420 --> 0:30:44.760 because someone at a Southern school, 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:45.920 and I forget the first one, 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:56.480 studied young college women. And so these early metabolic rate studies had been done in the north, 0:30:56.480 --> 0:31:02.640 primarily in the 19-teens, and the, you know, between 1910 and 1920. And they had come up with 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.040 a couple basic equations to predict your metabolic rate based on your height, weight, 1920, and they had come up with a couple basic equations 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.440 to predict your metabolic rate based on your height, 0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:09.880 weight, gender, and age. 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:11.960 And so you put those four numbers into the, 0:31:11.960 --> 0:31:14.240 you know, onto your notebook and you calculate it out 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.960 and that tells you what your metabolic rate should be. 0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:21.040 And this was very accurate in people from Chicago, 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:23.000 in people from New York City, 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:27.940 and then somebody tried it in Oklahoma or in Florida 0:31:27.940 --> 0:31:35.040 I can't remember exactly and they found that these young women young college-age women had a metabolic rate that was around 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:41.840 15% lower than these equations suggested that they should so they had this low metabolic rate and 0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:47.600 This was repeated in Florida, Oklahoma, South Carolina, 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:56.080 and others. There was at least, I think, four different schools that tested these equations. 0:31:56.080 --> 0:32:02.480 And they said, yes, every time it was like the New Orleans, the young women here have a metabolic 0:32:02.480 --> 0:32:06.080 rate significantly below what the mainstream equations 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:11.040 would predict. And then someone in Connecticut redid the experiment again, and they said, nope, 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:15.680 the young women in Connecticut have a metabolic rate that is exactly what the equations would 0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:21.600 predict. And they thought it was just that people didn't need to have as high metabolic rate 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:26.440 in warmer climates, but then that was pretty much disproven. 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:27.720 One of the ways they disproved it 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:29.520 was by going to check the Mayans. 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:31.440 That's why they went and looked at the Mayans 0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:32.260 and they were like, well, no, 0:32:32.260 --> 0:32:34.160 the Mayans actually have a metabolic rate 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:36.300 10% higher than Americans. 0:32:36.300 --> 0:32:38.760 But what's interesting is today, 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:42.400 if you look at people in Chicago, in New York, 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:44.840 they have the same metabolic rate 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:46.080 as the Southern 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:52.440 college women of the 30s who had a metabolic rate 15% below the general 0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:57.960 population. And so, you know, something was causing those women to have a low 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:01.440 metabolic rate and now everyone has a low metabolic rate. And if you look at 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:07.400 the history of kind of oil consumption, well, you know, cottonseed oil was the first oil 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:13.920 and USDA data from the 1930s will tell you that much more of 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:17.560 the cottonseed oil was consumed in the South before it was 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:18.840 consumed in the North. 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:29.760 Yeah, during this period, thyroid disease, low thyroid function was increasing steadily 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:51.680 and rapidly. And an interesting fact that is seldom discussed is that George Burr himself, the promoter of PUFA essentiality, in 1932 or 1933, did experiments on his rats, 0:33:51.680 --> 0:34:00.480 showing that when he made them deficient, according to his definition, in unsaturated 0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:05.000 fats, their metabolic rate was 50% higher 0:34:05.460 --> 0:34:07.060 than what he called normal. 0:34:08.420 --> 0:34:13.420 So he was making normal rats and calling them sick. 0:34:14.360 --> 0:34:15.200 Interesting. 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:20.980 Yeah, Dr. Peat, I recently took, 0:34:20.980 --> 0:34:24.460 I actually stumbled across those papers recently 0:34:24.460 --> 0:34:25.960 and I was looking at them. 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:27.820 And what I was wondering is, 0:34:31.160 --> 0:34:35.080 it looked to me like the amount of PUFA 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:38.360 in those rat diets that made them hypermetabolic 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:43.360 was almost below the rate 0:34:43.500 --> 0:34:48.800 that one could get in a normal mixed diet. You know what I mean? 0:34:50.000 --> 0:35:01.040 Yeah, but one person in his lab tried it on himself for six months, the laboratory purification 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.540 to try to create a human version of his rats. 0:35:12.540 --> 0:35:13.460 And his PUFA levels did gradually go down 0:35:15.700 --> 0:35:20.700 and after about four months, all of this man's prior symptoms disappeared 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:26.820 and didn't recur when he went back to his usual diet. 0:35:26.820 --> 0:35:31.820 But all he demonstrated was that doing his best 0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:35.160 to eliminate PUFA for several months 0:35:36.140 --> 0:35:39.160 improved his health very noticeably. 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:42.560 Yeah, that's great. 0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:47.320 Brad, you mentioned in, what was it, the 1930s, 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:50.160 you looked at the caloric intake. 0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:53.280 It was like 5,000 calories per person or something 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:55.640 that the USDA, what was that? 0:35:55.640 --> 0:36:00.640 Right, so the USDA, in the 1939 yearbook of agriculture, 0:36:03.240 --> 0:36:06.080 which is, the Yearbook of Agriculture 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:10.360 is like the USDA's big publication for the year. 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.160 And I think it was more important back then than it is now. 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:14.400 I don't even know if they still do it. 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:17.360 But back then, to be written up 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.880 in the Yearbook of Agriculture was a big deal. 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:22.940 And so this is the USDA's really flagship publication 0:36:22.940 --> 0:36:25.620 from back then in 1939. 0:36:25.620 --> 0:36:27.240 And every year it's about a different topic. 0:36:27.240 --> 0:36:29.420 So one year it might be about soil. 0:36:29.420 --> 0:36:33.920 The next year it's about you know, this one was called food and life. 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:44.960 And so they reported on on American diets and and they're the USDA publications are 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:48.240 very much about economics, right? They're not about 0:36:49.020 --> 0:36:51.020 So the point of the study was not 0:36:52.660 --> 0:36:56.200 Really about nutrition it was about 0:36:59.020 --> 0:37:01.020 How much people 0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:03.840 How much food different families bought? 0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:07.820 people, how much food different families bought given different income brackets, right? 0:37:07.820 --> 0:37:09.320 That was really what it was about. 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:12.600 But then they indexed all of the numbers and saying, 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:14.480 okay, well, is this a good diet? 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:15.360 Is this enough calories? 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:16.520 This is enough protein. 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:20.520 And interestingly, in those old USDA publications, 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.120 there does not seem to be a concept 0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:25.120 that eating too much is bad. 0:37:26.300 --> 0:37:29.580 That concept apparently did not exist yet 0:37:29.580 --> 0:37:33.280 because there's not even like a hesitation 0:37:33.280 --> 0:37:35.420 where they say, well, maybe you shouldn't eat this much, 0:37:35.420 --> 0:37:37.380 but here's what these people do. 0:37:37.380 --> 0:37:41.420 There's no, when you read the pros from back then, 0:37:41.420 --> 0:37:48.500 it seems like, well, more food is more nutrition is more better. There's no, you know, they 0:37:48.500 --> 0:37:53.640 don't, that's just, it's just more is better. That's what they 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.980 thought in the 1930s, right? And so you're like, well, that in 0:37:56.980 --> 0:37:59.660 and of itself is interesting, the fact that they're not 0:37:59.740 --> 0:38:02.260 saying, like, but watch your calories, like, there's none of 0:38:02.260 --> 0:38:12.360 that language. And so, right, and so what they, an interesting thing about this is, in the 1930s, if people could afford to 0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:21.680 buy and eat more food, they did. And so what you find is that the most, the families who 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.280 were eating the most most were the wealthiest 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:28.320 city dwellers basically and so 0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:38.400 You know probably the least active people probably lawyers and doctors, you know, these are not day laborers, right? They're not the ones who can afford the most and best food 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:40.960 and and it's all 0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:47.720 The numbers are all averaged to what an adult male would eat. 0:38:47.720 --> 0:38:51.640 And they don't tell us exactly how they do that math. 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.740 But by the estimation of the USDA in 1939, 0:38:54.740 --> 0:38:59.740 the richest East Coast cities, 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:02.520 the average man would have been consuming 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:04.500 something like 4,500 calories. 0:39:04.500 --> 0:39:05.760 Interestingly, on the west coast 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:12.160 The number is like 5,100 calories. So according to the USDA in the 1939 0:39:13.720 --> 0:39:17.440 Wealthy, you know a doctor living in San Francisco or 0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:22.080 Portland would have been consuming a little over 5,000 calories a day 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:24.880 normally 0:39:23.700 --> 0:39:25.540 assuming a little over 5,000 calories a day normally. 0:39:27.380 --> 0:39:29.860 That's a man or everybody? That's per adult male. 0:39:29.860 --> 0:39:32.400 And so you have to assume that it's gonna be less 0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:35.260 for a woman or for a 12 year old, you know, but it's, 0:39:35.260 --> 0:39:36.500 and they have some, they have formulas. 0:39:36.500 --> 0:39:39.460 So 4,000 to 5,000 calories a day. 0:39:40.380 --> 0:39:43.020 Absolutely, that is what the USDA says. 0:39:43.020 --> 0:39:45.800 Dr. Peat, do you think that, is that accurate? 0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:47.000 Oh yeah. 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:49.200 What were they eating back then? 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:54.100 I mean, it's actually quite explicit. 0:39:54.100 --> 0:39:58.400 It's, the USDA will tell you, it's flour, butter, sugar, 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:05.000 potatoes, pork, some beef, a lot of dairy, you know, milk. 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:07.960 Lots of chicken at the time or no? 0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:09.880 Nope, not much chicken. 0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:13.080 Fatty fish, PUFA fish, nuts? 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:14.360 No, no. 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:20.440 It's, you know, it's meat and potatoes and flour and sugar. 0:40:20.440 --> 0:40:22.360 You know, they're eating apple pie, right? 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.620 They're eating apple pie and they're eating mashed potatoes 0:40:24.620 --> 0:40:25.880 and they're eating pork chops. 0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:29.200 They were just tearing into that stuff. And they didn't have the 0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:31.120 obesity rates like we do today, huh? 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:34.040 Right. And they're drinking it with whole milk and probably 0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:37.440 fresh baked bread. And, and that, and that's what people 0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:37.600 ate. 0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:40.000 Was there was the bread back then not as messed up 0:40:40.000 --> 0:40:42.360 genetically as the bread we have? Was that a part of the 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:42.600 fact? 0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:46.560 Well, it would not yet have been the hybridized wheat 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:51.240 that we got coming out of, you know, Mexico post 1970, 0:40:51.240 --> 0:40:55.000 but yeah, so it would have been 0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:57.780 old fashioned varieties of wheat, yes. 0:40:57.780 --> 0:41:00.480 Dr. Peat, should we be eating 5,000 calories a day? 0:41:01.720 --> 0:41:02.560 Yes. 0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:11.800 If you choose your foods the way they used to. When I worked for the Bureau 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:31.200 of Land Management in the 1950s in the woods, we had a cook who was at the time in his 50s and had learned cooking in the Navy in the 1930s and 40s. 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:57.000 And our diet was just a tremendous amount of food, all of it tending to be saturated and carbohydrate, lots of steak and ham, eggs, 0:41:57.000 --> 0:42:09.280 a huge bowl of some breakfast cereal first thing in the morning, and then pancakes and ham and eggs as the 0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:11.680 main course of breakfast. 0:42:11.680 --> 0:42:31.120 And all we wanted to pack in a grain bag tied to our belts to eat for lunch and then huge dinners, very often a pound of steak 0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:54.080 as the main course, but with soup and cold meats, cheeses, boiled eggs, everything else besides the pound of steak and various vegetables 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:55.080 for carbohydrates. 0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:59.040 And everybody was really lean, I bet, huh? 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:00.040 Yeah. 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:05.000 I calculated that I was eating about 9,000 calories a day. 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:09.200 So now the argument would be, well, 0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:11.280 back then everybody was exercising way more 0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:12.680 and we're all a bunch of couch potatoes. 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:15.160 So that's why we can't eat 5,000 calories a day. 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:16.860 What would you say to that, Dr. B? 0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:20.760 Oh, yeah. 0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:23.480 My work was just walking through the woods, 0:43:24.720 --> 0:43:27.000 putting plants on the map. 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:32.640 It wasn't heavy work. 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:36.760 Just basically walking. 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:41.920 So were you doing like, were you doing any cardio in that job or anything to do 9,000 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:45.380 calories a day and not be overweight or whatever? 0:43:45.380 --> 0:43:47.020 No, not at all. 0:43:47.020 --> 0:43:49.220 I mean, I don't think, Dr. Peat, 0:43:49.220 --> 0:43:52.700 people didn't really do cardio 0:43:52.700 --> 0:43:56.060 for the sake of doing cardio back then. 0:43:56.060 --> 0:43:57.080 Is that correct? 0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:58.700 That's been my impression. 0:43:58.700 --> 0:44:01.340 Yeah, never heard of it back then. 0:44:01.340 --> 0:44:03.260 When did cardio get invented? 0:44:03.260 --> 0:44:04.100 Like the 70s. 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:05.400 back then. When did cardio get invented? Like the seventies? Uh, 0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:10.120 yeah. John Kennedy, uh, with his touch football, 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:14.760 uh, and so on. Uh, and Sputnik in the fifties, uh, 0:44:18.280 --> 0:44:18.360 they did tests and found that, uh, uh, 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:22.000 Americans, uh, even in their teams, uh, 0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:39.120 were by far the weakest people in the world. So as part of the response to Sputnik, the government started promoting various types of exercise, but then the Kennedys 0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:45.000 popularized the idea of jogging. that came on in the 60s. 0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:52.680 So gentlemen, help me understand something here. 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:56.720 So 1930s, you guys are saying that there's this rise 0:44:56.720 --> 0:44:59.720 in these low metabolic rates for women, right? 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:01.440 And you, Brad, were suggesting 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:03.880 that's cottonseed oil doing that, or? 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:12.320 Well, my suggestion is it's cottonseed oil. But what I can say is that the metabolic rate 0:45:12.320 --> 0:45:19.480 happening in the 1930s in women is real, and it's captured by at least four different universities. 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:26.800 And then a university in the North redid their study again and said, nope, our metabolic rates have not changed. 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:27.920 There's something different 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:29.620 about the metabolic rates in the South. 0:45:29.620 --> 0:45:33.180 And I've postulated that this could be due 0:45:33.180 --> 0:45:35.480 to the rise of cottonseed oil in the South, 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:37.280 but no one did that experiment. 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:40.340 We don't know why, but it definitely did drop. 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:44.960 So why do we still see, 0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:49.800 like, I'm just trying to map this damage, I'm trying to investigate 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.000 this train wreck that happened in the last century. 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:56.120 I'm like, look, I mean, as best as I can as an armchair detective here, I'm sitting here 0:45:56.120 --> 0:46:02.280 and I'm thinking, okay, so you're seeing already in the 30s a drop in metabolic rate, and you're 0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:04.680 linking that to cottonseed oil or maybe something else. 0:46:04.680 --> 0:46:11.520 Dr. Peat might have something to suggest there, but then what happens like why is it that they you know the famous thing people? 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:16.520 I think was you or somebody's showing photos of people lining up to see Star Wars in the 1970s 0:46:16.680 --> 0:46:20.600 And everybody's thin as a rail is that you that posted those photos or somebody else? 0:46:20.600 --> 0:46:23.840 Those are not mine, but I know Dr. Goodrich or somebody posted 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:25.000 Yeah, and they're like and then they show you know Those are somebody else. 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:28.760 And they're like, and then they show the 2000s, people lining up for Star Wars and everybody's 0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:29.760 obese almost. 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:31.140 And it's like, what happened? 0:46:31.140 --> 0:46:35.240 So what was going on that in the seven, you're saying the metabolic rates were dropping low 0:46:35.240 --> 0:46:36.240 in the thirties. 0:46:36.240 --> 0:46:40.600 Well, why do we see, why does it like, how come it takes to the seventies, eighties, 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:45.080 nineties before this explosion and obesity and diabetes and all this other stuff. 0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:46.080 Or maybe I've got it wrong. 0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:47.080 Can someone help me? 0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:59.680 I think it was the very heavy propaganda starting in the 50s for polyunsaturated fats as more 0:46:59.680 --> 0:47:06.220 than an essential nutrient as a way to protect against heart disease. 0:47:08.020 --> 0:47:08.860 Okay. 0:47:08.860 --> 0:47:12.980 Yeah, I mean, and I think what Dr. Peat means 0:47:12.980 --> 0:47:14.560 is that if you look at the amount 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:17.780 of vegetable oil consumption, 0:47:17.780 --> 0:47:22.780 it was sort of creeping up in the 30s, 40s, 50s. 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:45.000 up in the 30s, 40s, 50s, it didn't really explode until the 60s and 70s, even 80s, 90s. I think that my suspicion is that for most people, sure, like, you know, 0:47:45.840 --> 0:47:47.940 I think this is a long-term process. 0:47:47.940 --> 0:47:52.000 I think where you start to ingest too much PUFA, 0:47:52.000 --> 0:47:56.600 your metabolic rate probably dips to the most, 0:47:56.600 --> 0:47:58.840 for a lot of people, that might, 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:02.640 the fact that you're not burning fuel as fast, 0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:06.080 that might mean your appetite dips for a while 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:08.160 and you maybe might, you know, 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:11.320 it seems like people at a certain age, 0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:13.360 their kind of weight gets kind of set. 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:17.080 And then I feel like you start to see the obesity oftentimes 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:18.000 in the next generation. 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:19.720 And I'm not sure exactly what, 0:48:19.720 --> 0:48:21.720 I don't understand exactly what drives that. 0:48:21.720 --> 0:48:24.480 I'm not trying to pretend that I understand it. 0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:27.280 But I think that the the polyunsaturated 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:31.080 fats are much more damaging to kids. And I think that you see 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:35.540 every generation, you see higher childhood obesity. And then, you 0:48:35.540 --> 0:48:39.920 know, when once you're obese in childhood, you're going to 0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:43.080 probably fight obesity for your life, you know, 0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:45.480 that's a genetic switch that turns on or something? 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:47.960 I don't, no, I don't believe it's a genetic switch. 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:50.680 I just believe that in a growing, 0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:54.640 like in a growing child before your metabolism is set 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:59.200 and your adipose tissue has matured and your, 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:02.140 you know, there's a lot of things as you grow that gets, 0:49:02.140 --> 0:49:04.340 you know, a child is very plastic 0:49:04.340 --> 0:49:06.440 and can adapt to a lot of situations. And at some 0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:10.440 point, you sort of are set the way that you are. And it's not 0:49:10.440 --> 0:49:14.080 to say that you can't change these things. But, you know, I 0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:18.540 see personally, I see obesity is something that often happens in 0:49:18.540 --> 0:49:22.120 your youth very young. I mean, I was obese by the time that I was 0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:26.020 in first grade. 0:49:27.700 --> 0:49:30.800 There's no reason for that. You know, I wasn't like out. 0:49:32.740 --> 0:49:35.720 I wasn't out at the all you can eat buffet all night. 0:49:35.720 --> 0:49:36.560 I was an active kid. 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:37.380 I was running around. 0:49:37.380 --> 0:49:39.620 Were you eating 9,000 calories a day like Dr. Peat? 0:49:39.620 --> 0:49:40.780 Well, not in kindergarten. 0:49:40.780 --> 0:49:41.860 And that's the thing, I wasn't. 0:49:41.860 --> 0:49:43.700 I wasn't eating that much. 0:49:43.700 --> 0:49:46.560 Like my mom was very, like my mom didn't buy us. 0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:50.480 We didn't get bacon. My mom thought that was bad. It was too 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.080 high in fat. We didn't get that. We did have margarine, though. 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:56.880 We did not have butter, because butter was bad. That was bad. We 0:49:56.880 --> 0:50:01.400 had margarine. And so, despite the fact that everything in our 0:50:01.400 --> 0:50:04.600 house was low-fat, and it was lean, and it was low-calorie, 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:06.420 and we had skim milk, we had all the things that everything in our house was like low fat and it was lean and it was low calorie and we had skim milk, right? 0:50:06.420 --> 0:50:07.260 We had skim milk. 0:50:07.260 --> 0:50:09.620 We had all the things that we were supposed to have 0:50:09.620 --> 0:50:13.260 and yet by kindergarten, I was chubby, right? 0:50:13.260 --> 0:50:17.020 And so my mom was doing everything right 0:50:17.020 --> 0:50:19.340 except that the only cooking oils we had, 0:50:19.340 --> 0:50:23.020 which we used judiciously were vegetable oil based. 0:50:24.140 --> 0:50:25.800 You know, we had margarine on our toast, 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:28.080 but like we weren't, you know, 0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:31.920 my mom was very careful about feeding us things 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:33.760 that she thought would make us fat, right? 0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:35.700 Like that was, we didn't have soda in the house. 0:50:35.700 --> 0:50:39.380 Like we, my mom tried to do everything she could 0:50:39.380 --> 0:50:42.360 to avoid that for us, but yet it didn't work. 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:44.520 And my parents both struggled with their weight 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:49.320 and all of us kids, you know, to one degree or another, struggled with our 0:50:49.320 --> 0:50:53.480 weight. And so, you know, you can see that it starts very young, and it's 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:57.280 not - you can do all of the right things, and it still happens - ”the right 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:04.840 things", and it still happens, right? We know that. And so, I ... yeah, and so that's 0:51:04.840 --> 0:51:07.120 where I think it does. I think there is 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:10.320 sort of a generational knowledge, or it's just that 0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:15.120 children are very apt to the particular damages as you're 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:19.520 growing if there's too much PUFA around. Dr. Peat, any 0:51:19.520 --> 0:51:30.500 thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's all epigenetic, induced by the environment. 0:51:30.500 --> 0:51:42.760 And the real problem is that we don't have any science left, science in the abstract 0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:45.000 sense of objectivity. 0:51:45.780 --> 0:51:50.780 What we have is industry guided propaganda research. 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:58.400 The nutritional so-called science 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:03.600 is under the heavy dominating influence 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:06.640 of the food industry. 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:12.440 Dr. Peat, do you think that they know that their stuff is that bad or they just choose 0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:16.560 to ignore the science that suggests their products, these PUFA products are bad, these 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:18.360 high PUFA oils? 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:33.720 It's bad for their business to do actual science. They choose what gets published and what gets taught in the universities. 0:52:33.720 --> 0:52:53.760 I forget exactly what year it was, sometime in the late 80s I think. I had been traveling around giving talks on the dangers of PUFA, and on one trip I had 0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:58.400 talks scheduled up and down the West Coast. 0:52:58.400 --> 0:53:05.000 And on that trip, every time I would get to a site, it would mysteriously be locked up. 0:53:05.840 --> 0:53:10.840 And if we held the talk, it would be at some, 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:15.200 someone's house locally. 0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:19.420 When I got to the last stop, 0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:25.000 I found that not only the auditorium was locked up, 0:53:26.580 --> 0:53:29.740 none of the publicity had been done, 0:53:29.740 --> 0:53:33.800 and the person who had scheduled my talk had been fired. 0:53:35.300 --> 0:53:40.200 Just 100% intervention mysteriously. 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:49.800 Some outside influence caused all of these sites to close up and pretend that 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:58.180 nothing had been scheduled. When was this? I forget the year, but probably 86 or 88 0:53:58.180 --> 0:54:03.080 around then. How many people were like you talking about seed oils and 0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:07.520 universities and the dangers of high PUFA? Is that what you were talking about, I'm assuming? 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:12.400 Yeah, and I didn't know anyone else who was doing it. 0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:16.280 You didn't know anyone? There's no academician or anybody that was talking 0:54:16.280 --> 0:54:20.680 or lecturing out publicly? No. There's basically, you've been a voice in the 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:33.840 wilderness here for a while, huh? Yeah's pretty. Yeah. In doing my dissertation research, I came across the history of age pigment 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:45.000 and what the factors are that cause that. The polyunsaturated fats and respiratory stress 0:54:47.700 --> 0:54:51.880 caused by such things as estrogen dominance 0:54:53.020 --> 0:54:56.940 led to the formation of age pigment, 0:54:56.940 --> 0:55:01.500 which is an alternative electron acceptor, 0:55:02.860 --> 0:55:12.760 a last ditch effort of the stressed organism to consume electrons so that life 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:34.000 could continue. Abnormal consumption of electrons has its own effects, intensifying the effects of stress, 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:38.600 estrogen, and damage to the mitochondria. 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:50.160 But the role of PUFA that I ran across in trying to understand the effect of reproductive aging. 0:55:50.160 --> 0:56:03.760 That was the core of my subsequent thought giving importance to the dangers of PUFA. 0:56:03.760 --> 0:56:07.400 So is that what you were talking about in those lectures that were being mysteriously 0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:09.400 canceled when you would show up? 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:10.400 Yeah. 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:15.040 Were they all fired or just one gentleman was fired, you said? 0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:23.760 The only one that I inquired about was a person I had known, and it was caused by the fact 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:27.600 that he had scheduled my lecture. 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:32.600 Did any of your work in the 80s or 90s hit the popular press at all in any local newspapers 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:33.600 or anything? 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.480 Or was it creating buzz back then? 0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:42.840 No, I don't know of any reporting about it. 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:46.480 So what do you—I'm just curious, I don't want to go off too, but I just got to ask you, 0:56:46.480 --> 0:56:48.760 what do you think about all this newfound interest 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:49.600 in seed oils? 0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:51.480 I mean, you've been out there talking about them 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:53.880 as a lonely voice, that must be maddening 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:56.800 when nobody else seems to pay attention 0:56:56.800 --> 0:56:58.400 or listen to what you're saying, 0:56:58.400 --> 0:57:01.240 decade and decade and then now all of a sudden, 0:57:01.240 --> 0:57:03.180 because of the internet and things going on, 0:57:03.180 --> 0:57:05.320 there's this newfound explosion 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:10.120 of people talking about seed oils and how toxic and damaging they are to our health. 0:57:10.120 --> 0:57:12.680 How does that make you, what do you think of that? 0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:16.040 Oh, I'm glad it's finally happening. 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:30.520 Did you think it would happen sooner? I did my best to try to get people thinking about it. 0:57:30.520 --> 0:57:34.720 Do you feel that the corporate forces are going to continually suppress this information 0:57:34.720 --> 0:57:37.360 from being popularly reported? 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:54.560 Yeah, it's exactly the same thing throughout the culture. The giant corporations have taken over everything, and if the people don't get wise, the whole 0:57:54.560 --> 0:57:59.240 system is in the process of dying, killing itself. 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:00.240 Yeah, that's true. 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:10.720 Dr. Peat, I wanted to ask you if we could do a thought experiment for a moment. Supposing that we eliminated all the seed oils over the last, the 20th century, but everybody 0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:16.160 was still eating the same amounts of nuts and high PUFA fish and high PUFA chicken and pork, 0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:22.880 would we have seen similar explosions in the rate of obesity? Or, I mean, is it really the seed oils 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:26.160 driving the obesity explosion, or is it actually the 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:29.440 other high PUFA natural products, or, you know, relatively natural? 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:34.480 I guess it's kind of debatable whether the amount of PUFA in chicken fat and pork fat, 0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:37.400 as Brad could attest, maybe that's not so natural. 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:51.360 But would it still result in a similar explosion in obesity and other issues? Chicken and pork fat has changed radically over the decades. 0:58:51.360 --> 0:59:00.080 Roughly every 15 or 20 years, the government has revised downward the amount of cholesterol 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:05.000 in an egg, going back about 60 years. 0:59:05.000 --> 0:59:10.000 And every time they examine the average commercial egg, 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:15.160 they find that the cholesterol is much lower 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:16.640 than they thought. 0:59:16.640 --> 0:59:20.200 And it's the shift of the chicken's diet 0:59:21.720 --> 0:59:31.280 causing the defective egg production loaded up with PUFA, deficient in cholesterol. 0:59:31.280 --> 0:59:38.320 But do you think, I guess what I'm saying is, how much of a role would, if people didn't 0:59:38.320 --> 0:59:46.200 eat seed oils, but they ate the same amount of high PUFA of fish, high PUFA nuts? 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:49.240 Would we still have the same rates of obesity or would it be cut in half? 0:59:49.240 --> 0:59:52.600 I'm just speculating here out loud here. 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:55.320 Yeah. 0:59:55.320 --> 1:00:13.000 You wouldn't naturally choose that much fish and fat chicken and pork and so on, as you can get in the bottled seed oils. 1:00:13.000 --> 1:00:23.000 But still, those changes are industry-promoted and damaging the population. 1:00:23.000 --> 1:00:26.360 So just - and Brad, maybe you can help me understand this, 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:28.240 or both of you, because I'm trying to see, 1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:31.200 like, if we could wave a magic wand, 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:33.520 because there's a lot of people getting on this no seed oil 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:36.360 bandwagon, but I want to know how much of the problem 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:39.800 that we're identifying here about obesity 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.680 is triggered by these other high PUFA sources, 1:00:42.680 --> 1:00:47.320 like nuts and seeds and these fish 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:49.740 and the chicken and pork. 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:54.120 People are being propagandized to make those choices 1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:57.840 that no one would have thought of making on their own. 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:00.800 Yeah, and I see, 1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:05.000 it's hard to tease out. 1:01:06.020 --> 1:01:10.240 I mean, Ana, you see the broad trends happening, right? 1:01:10.240 --> 1:01:13.100 And you see what happens in lab rats. 1:01:13.100 --> 1:01:18.100 And what I see is that the, well, 1:01:20.460 --> 1:01:24.340 the triggering event of eating a lot of seed oils, 1:01:24.340 --> 1:01:27.800 of eating a lot of high, yeah, sure, high PUFA chicken and 1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:35.400 pork, and, and other foods is that and nuts is well, and this 1:01:35.400 --> 1:01:38.720 is I don't know if we if we've actually got there yet. But the 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:41.540 initial proposition, I think of this talk was to talk about 1:01:41.540 --> 1:01:46.240 reductive stress. And what I see is all of those foods are essentially 1:01:46.240 --> 1:01:55.120 leading us to a place of what I would call reductive stress, which I'm defining as basically 1:01:55.120 --> 1:02:08.800 lack of NAD plus or not enough NAD plus. And that that is really, that place is where what is driving the obesity epidemic is essentially this 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:15.180 this kind of reductive stress that we're all in and I think that that the things 1:02:15.180 --> 1:02:21.140 that have really sparked this problem of reductive stress are definitely the seed 1:02:21.140 --> 1:02:28.480 oils. You know it's hard for me to say exactly the the proportion of that came from high PUFA 1:02:28.480 --> 1:02:31.520 chicken versus seed oils. But But mostly, I mean, when you 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:35.360 look at how much seed oils and everything, it feels like that 1:02:35.360 --> 1:02:39.880 is the primary culprit. Maybe it's 70% or 60%. And the other 1:02:39.880 --> 1:02:40.640 things are 40%. 1:02:40.640 --> 1:02:43.520 That's what I'm trying to get a just a ballpark image for me 1:02:43.520 --> 1:02:46.240 because there's a lot of Tucker I mean Tucker 1:02:46.260 --> 1:02:53.040 Tucker Goodrich has a citation that he's posted in his Twitter 1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:56.760 feed and it says like top sources of PUFA and the 1:02:56.760 --> 1:03:01.800 American diet and I'm doing this from memory but I think the 1:03:01.800 --> 1:03:07.680 number one source is chicken and Number two is another one that I wouldn't have predicted, which 1:03:07.680 --> 1:03:16.320 is grain-based desserts, so things like cake and cookies 1:03:16.320 --> 1:03:21.960 and things like that, which I would have guessed French fries 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:24.320 and potato chips, number one, and I would have guessed salad, 1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:26.600 number two, because everybody puts, you know, 1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:29.200 Kraft dressing made of soybean oil on their salad. 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.160 But according to that, it's number one is actually poultry. 1:03:32.160 --> 1:03:36.160 And number two is like cake, which I neither- 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:38.760 You're saying fried poultry or just any poultry? 1:03:38.760 --> 1:03:41.720 Well, it doesn't say, yeah, it might be buffalo wings, 1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:43.120 you know, fried in soybean oil. 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:44.880 So I don't, I don't know. 1:03:46.120 --> 1:03:46.960 But yeah. 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:51.960 Just that chickens themselves are toxic 1:03:52.080 --> 1:03:55.160 because of their artificial seed oil diet. 1:03:55.160 --> 1:03:58.840 They are sources of seed oil. 1:03:59.760 --> 1:04:00.800 They are. 1:04:00.800 --> 1:04:01.620 Absolutely they are. 1:04:01.620 --> 1:04:03.160 So you avoid chicken altogether, Dr. Peat, 1:04:03.160 --> 1:04:07.320 or at least fatty chicken, chicken fat? 1:04:07.320 --> 1:04:17.160 Basically limiting it to occasional chicken wings deep fried in coconut oil to exchange 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:25.320 as much fat as possible for coconut oil. So I want to get- 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:29.480 I just want to put a quick plug in for Buffalo, New York, 1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:31.280 home of the Buffalo wing. 1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:32.100 Anyway, sorry. 1:04:32.100 --> 1:04:32.940 Is that where you reside? 1:04:32.940 --> 1:04:34.760 I know you're up there somewhere. 1:04:34.760 --> 1:04:36.100 I'm in upstate New York. 1:04:36.100 --> 1:04:39.240 I really am in the Finger Lakes near, 1:04:39.240 --> 1:04:40.760 in Shermansburg near Ithaca, 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:43.120 but I also spend a lot of time in Buffalo, so. 1:04:43.120 --> 1:04:46.480 And we've got Dr. Peat, you're in Oregon, right, sir? 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:47.480 Yeah. 1:04:47.480 --> 1:04:51.920 So, it's interesting, just like the Indians, the East Coast and the West Coast both independently 1:04:51.920 --> 1:04:54.120 discovered that PUFA was toxic and high. 1:04:54.120 --> 1:04:55.120 That's interesting. 1:04:55.120 --> 1:04:58.280 You guys didn't even know each other's work and you came to the same conclusion. 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:06.600 So, I want to hone in on the topic like Brad suggested about reductive stress in our obesity panel, which you both 1:05:06.600 --> 1:05:07.600 were a part of. 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:14.420 I saw, Brad, you were smiling, you know, very happily when you heard Dr. Peat reference 1:05:14.420 --> 1:05:15.540 reductive stress. 1:05:15.540 --> 1:05:21.880 So I want you guys to unleash, but try as best as you can to make this accessible for 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:24.840 people who are a little new, but don't let it hold you back too much. 1:05:24.840 --> 1:05:26.840 Go try to find the balance there. 1:05:26.840 --> 1:05:32.360 Explain what is this reductive stress and how is this connected to PUFA and how is this 1:05:32.360 --> 1:05:54.440 causing obesity. Bye for now.