WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.000 If you have any questions for Politics and Science, you can direct them by email to politicsandscience@madriver.com. 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:11.000 That's politicsandscience@madriver.com. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Politics and Science presents the viewpoints of its participants and does not necessarily reflect the viewpoints of any other person or organization. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:24.000 Hello and welcome to Politics and Science. I'm your host, John Barkasin. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Today we feature an archive of my interview of Dr. Raymond Peat, PhD, courted at WGDR circa 2001. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:39.000 In this show, he discusses the remarkable story of Dr. Stefan Durevic and his cancer treatment known as probiazine. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:48.000 He also covers the heroic but ultimately fruitless efforts by Dr. Andrew C. Ivey, who was at the time one of America's most prominent scientists. 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:54.000 Dr. Ivey attempted to give this promising treatment the clinical testing that its positive findings warranted. 00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:04.000 In case you're interested in the subject, the meticulously written book that tells the story in detail is by Herbert Smith Bailey and is called K-Probiazine, Key to Cancer. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.000 That's spelled out at the end of the show. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:17.000 In this show, Dr. Peat also discusses the suppressed work of an earlier brilliant cancer researcher called Dr. William F. Koch, MD and PhD, and his successful cancer treatments. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:25.000 If you're interested in Dr. Raymond Peat's work, many of his writings are available at his website, Raypeat.com. 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:28.000 And now, once again, here's Dr. Raymond Peat. 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:39.000 A.C. Ivey, these people all overlap for various reasons, partly because several of the alternative health, especially alternative cancer treatment people, 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:49.000 were working on essentially the same ideas and they were all attacked by the established forces that were working on different assumptions. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:50.000 What year was this? 00:01:50.000 --> 00:02:02.000 Oh, Koch started his work, I think one of his publications was 1911, another 1914, and by the '20s he had a clinic going in Cleveland. 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:16.000 He was a professor of medicine and chemistry and he was the first person to take seriously for biochemistry the work on free radicals of Moses Gomberg, 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:20.000 who demonstrated that free radicals really exist. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:24.000 They aren't just a hypothesis that exists only on paper, 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:34.000 but Moses Gomberg showed that highly colored chemicals appear when you can get free radicals who separate in solution. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:42.000 And the color is because the electron that is no longer paired is free enough that it absorbs light in the visible spectrum. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:49.000 And so that's one of the simple ways to test an unpaired electron, is that suddenly the solution goes dark. 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:54.000 And even chemists didn't take Gomberg seriously. 00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:05.000 In Russia he was a major influence, but in the United States for probably 40 or 50 years free radical chemistry just couldn't take off. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:16.000 The industrial chemist, I think it was DuPont himself, maybe not, but anyway it was the head of one of the early plastic companies, 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:26.000 told William Koch that he had better be quiet about the idea of applying free radical chemistry in medicine, 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:32.000 because people didn't even understand it in organic chemistry. 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:39.000 And they were going to say he was talking about fantasies if he talked about the free radical basis of biology. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:51.000 And it was around 1950s that the instrumentation became available to demonstrate that free radicals really did exist in living tissue. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:04:00.000 And what was the name of the scientist who ran for president in, I think, the Peace and Freedom Party in the 1970s? 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.000 Very commoner. 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.000 He was one of the first people to demonstrate free radicals existing in living tissues. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.000 I didn't know that. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.000 When did the free radical theory start? 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.000 Well, about 1905, I think. 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:20.000 1900 to 1905 was when Moses Gomberg was demonstrating them. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:28.000 But immediately Koch was putting it into theoretical thinking about what cells are doing. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:35.000 And he applied it to the concept of polymerization and blood clotting as his first thing. 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:42.000 And he knew that in healing a wound or a cancer, blood clotting is one of the first things that happens. 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.000 And the clotting abnormalities are characteristic of cancer. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:57.000 And it turned out that for places like DuPont, the polymerization was, in fact, a very important practical industrial principle using the free radical. 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:06.000 But Koch anticipated even industrial thinking within just a few years of starting to work on it. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:14.000 He was applying it theoretically and practically to devise both explanations for disease and therapies. 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.000 He seems like quite a brilliant man. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:24.000 Yeah, so quick to apply knowledge that was very clear and definite. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:36.000 Other people couldn't accept it because it just didn't seem to fit the low standard that was common in chemistry and all branches of science and biology at that time. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:43.000 The free radical, sorry I'm pretty ignorant here, but the free radical theory, that must have come out of the atomic theory of electrons. 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:59.000 Yeah, ordinary chemistry on paper, they would show an atom coming loose or an atom with other atoms attached to it coming loose from another group and taking one electron away. 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:06.000 Each atom had been contributing an electron to a pair that made a stable compound. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:12.000 On paper, they could take away a group with one electron and allow it to combine somewhere else. 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:18.000 They just couldn't believe that that could really exist in a watery solution, for example. 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:25.000 But how Moses Gomberg first did it was with, I think it was triphenyl ethane. 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:33.000 Anyway, it had three large carbon rings attached to one tiny little molecule in the center. 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:47.000 The tendency of the benzene ring to repel because they were placed too close together and the whole group wasn't very soluble in water. 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:56.000 The force of the water and the closeness of these large groups, if you diluted, if you kept adding water to a solution of this compound, 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:03.000 as it got very highly dilute, the color would suddenly change from clear to a deep purple. 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:13.000 As you got it diluted enough, the groups would be able to fall apart from each other and exist freely in solution. 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000 Anyone that knew homeopathy, which a well-educated doctor did in 1900, knew that the principle of homeopathy was that some compounds become chemically more reactive when they're highly diluted. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:35.000 So it was natural for someone with a medical education to see the importance of this chemical principle. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:44.000 But not many people who had studied homeopathy as well as classical medicine also studied chemistry, which Koch did. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:51.000 The first time I heard about Koch was, I think, 1943 or '44. 00:07:51.000 --> 00:08:00.000 People were circulating little mimeographed newsletters about the scandal of how he was being persecuted by the FBI and so on. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:10.000 The history of his two trials, it's been written up. Koch himself told some of the stories. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:15.000 These stories have never been refuted. They're pretty well documented. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:25.000 He said that criminals who tried to kill him later were proven to be, at that time, agents of the FBI. 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:36.000 The public didn't start hearing of mob FBI connections or CIA connections until the Church Committee in the '70s brought out the stuff. 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.000 But it was something that had been going on for a long time. 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.000 Is that pre-Hoover? 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Oh, no. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 That was Hoover. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.000 Hoover was there for about 50 years. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.000 Yeah, he was quite a gangster. 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Why were they going after him at that point? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:02.000 Well, his clinic was so successful in Cleveland that it was bringing a lot of attention to him, even though he followed DuPont's advice. 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:10.000 Maybe it wasn't DuPont, but anyway, he followed this industrialist's advice and didn't explain the pre-radical basis. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:16.000 He was just having objective results that brought a lot of attention to his clinic. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:25.000 He had tried to publish all of the details in the period 1917 to 1921. 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:35.000 He submitted papers all over the world, but the standard medical journals wouldn't accept pre-radical chemical explanations for any biological events. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:44.000 So the government then was claiming that he had a secret method, simply because he couldn't have journals to publish it. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.000 They called it a secret quack method. 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:59.000 But years later, after I had studied books thoroughly, and I had also been studying Otto Warburg's work and Albert Szent-Györgyi's work on cancer, 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:08.000 I noticed dramatic parallels between the work Szent-Györgyi was doing all the way through from the '30s when he got the Nobel Prize, 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:15.000 all the way down to I think it was about 1973 or '74 when I wrote Szent-Györgyi. 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:28.000 I outlined over about two pages the amazing similarities between Koch's work that he had described in his book, done between 1910 and 1925 or so, 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:35.000 and what Szent-Györgyi started doing in about 1932 and continued to the 1970s. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:44.000 I outlined this amazing set of parallels and said, "Is this just coincidence, or were you influenced by W.F. Koch?" 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:50.000 Because in all of Szent-Györgyi's work, I couldn't find a single reference to W.F. Koch. 00:10:50.000 --> 00:11:02.000 He answered that he had the highest respect for the work of W.F. Koch, which obviously meant that since he had never referred to it in print, 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:07.000 that he knew what had happened to Koch and he didn't want it to happen to him. 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.000 Maybe we could go back a little bit and talk about Koch's cancer therapy and how he was persecuted. 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.000 Who was he threatening at the time? 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:27.000 I think it was the FDA itself that accused him of violating the law by selling something that they said couldn't cure cancer. 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:34.000 So they had it analyzed and couldn't detect anything in it, but the machinery... 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:35.000 They had his cure analyzed? 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Yeah. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:42.000 They said it was distilled water, and he made some in court according to his procedure, 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:49.000 and he took this highly colored material and diluted it and was so dilute that it looked like distilled water. 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:54.000 He gave them the sample and had them analyze it, and they said it's distilled water. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:02.000 So the jury could see that their own eyes had seen stuff go into it, and the government was telling them it wasn't there. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:09.000 So twice he was acquitted, but he decided it was time to get out of the country with people trying to kill him 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.000 and keeping him constantly in court instead of doing science. 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.000 So he spent the rest of his life after 1944 in Brazil. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:23.000 Are there any remnants of his work still operating in Brazil? 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:24.000 Yeah. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:30.000 I guess about 15 years ago I talked to a very old man who had worked with him, 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:37.000 and I don't think there's probably anyone still living who is directly connected with him. 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.000 He died, I think, about 1968. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:43.000 And what was the distilled water solution? 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.000 Was it homeopathy? 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:51.000 Well, these people that worked with him said that it was done by judgment. 00:12:51.000 --> 00:13:00.000 He used a red platinum electrode and passed alcohol vapors, not an electrode but a reactor. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.000 It was heated electrically to just the right color of red, 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:08.000 and then he passed a stream of alcohol vapor over that, 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:16.000 and at that temperature the alcohol polymerized into a water-soluble chain of molecules 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:22.000 which were unstable enough that they would release the individual, 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:30.000 either carbon, oxygen, hydrogen group, or a small chain of those carbon-oxygen groups into solution. 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.000 And that was the primary reagent. 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:41.000 He also used benzoquinone at high dilution, but that was just an easy-to-make, lower-potency thing. 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:49.000 The primary reagent was this thing which required the judgment of knowing just how red your platinum reactor had to be. 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:54.000 And so people who had seen him do it could repeat it, and there were people in Brazil, 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:59.000 might still be there, I suppose, their lab, have passed the technique along. 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.000 I haven't heard from them for years. 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:06.000 And how did this affect, how was it in the anti-cancer therapy? 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:13.000 He, well, one of his early publications had to do with the muscle spasms 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.000 that typically follow removal of the thyroid gland, 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:25.000 and the parathyroid tend to be removed along with the thyroid if the surgeon doesn't make a special effort, 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:34.000 even though that was used as the explanation for why thyroid surgery causes these muscle spasms. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:38.000 Even the most careful surgeon who takes out the thyroid, 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:44.000 even when he leaves the parathyroid, typical for the patient to suffer these spasms. 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:50.000 And anyway, Koch experimented with the removal of just the parathyroid glands 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:58.000 and found that if you give any salt electrolyte, such as potassium, sodium, magnesium, or calcium, 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.000 if you give it generously, you prevent the spasms. 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:10.000 And he was arguing that the parathyroid gland was involved in detoxifying compounds that derive from ammonia, 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:16.000 guanidine and methylguanidine, and that these chemicals are poisonous 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.000 and known to cause seizures and muscle spasms. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:27.000 And he could demonstrate that he was causing those to be passed off in the urine by increasing the salt intake. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.000 And that was published, I think, in 1917. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:34.000 But then A.J. Carlson, a very powerful professor at the University of Chicago, 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:39.000 and his group decided that one hormone has only one action, 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:46.000 and that they basically proclaimed that the parathyroid hormone has the action mobilizing calcium, 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.000 and that in a calcium deficiency, you get the spasms. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:56.000 But there are just terrible problems with that, the whole setup, 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:03.000 because their description of what's happening to calcium turned out to be without foundation. 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:12.000 It was all a hypothetical theory that attempted to describe this hormone in terms of one singular action on calcium. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:16.000 And that one turns out not to be the way they thought it was, 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:22.000 and still no one has reverted to consider Koch's explanation. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.000 But anyway, Koch explained the toxicity. 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.000 These compounds, they're similar to what ammonia does, 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:40.000 but the amino or ammonia group occurs in many chemicals that produce seizures and spasms and overstimulation. 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:43.000 We now call it excitotoxicity. 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:50.000 And ammonia and serotonin, just a tremendous range of amino compounds, have this action. 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:56.000 And the carbonyl group that was the essence of Koch's treatment, 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:01.000 whether the carbonyl was in his polymer that he made on his platinum reactor, 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:07.000 or whether it was the carbonyl that was part of the benzoquinone molecule, 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:13.000 it was this which Koch explained as drawing electrons to itself, 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:18.000 away from the electron donors of the ammonia compound. 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.000 And during this time, not only was free radical chemistry an underground current, 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:30.000 the acid theory, Gilbert Lewis, this was happening at the same time. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:34.000 Lewis was a professor and chemist. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.000 I think his theory came out in 1914, 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:45.000 and it was a general theory of acidity and alkalinity in terms of electron withdrawal or donation. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:53.000 And it was exactly compatible with Koch oxidation reduction explanation of how his catalyst worked. 00:17:53.000 --> 00:18:01.000 But again, the Lewis theory, which was totally general as a description of acids and bases, couldn't take on. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.000 People brought out the Brunstad-Lowry theory of acids, 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:11.000 which is what everyone now teaches that acid is a hydrogen ion donor. 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:16.000 pH is a description of the concentration of hydrogen ions. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:21.000 And even though it's not a general theory, because there are acids which contain no protons, 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:26.000 no hydrogen ions, this is the standard theory of acids and bases. 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:31.000 So Lewis's theory of acidity, which was true and general, 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:35.000 was displaced by basically erroneous theory, 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:40.000 which is now everyone's chemical textbook description of what an acid is. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.000 They're still saying it today. 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:49.000 Yeah. And just totally ignoring the implications of Gilbert Lewis's good theory, 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:56.000 and especially the implications it has for biology and medicine and biochemistry. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:10.000 But Szent-Györgyi was essentially looking for evidence of Koch's high-energy promoter of oxidation as an electron acceptor in physiology. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:22.000 Koch had postulated that benzoquinone was useful because there was a quinone molecule in the cell that this was a close imitation of, 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.000 and would therefore activate. 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:35.000 And it wasn't until 1950 or so that it was discovered that there in fact is an essential oxidizing quinone in the cell, in the mitochondrion, 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.000 and it's so ubiquitous that it's called ubiquinone. 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:47.000 But at the time Koch was saying this, analytical chemistry wasn't refined to the point that it could go beyond theory, 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.000 which had therapeutic results. 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.000 And so they said it couldn't have therapeutic results because it isn't there. 00:19:53.000 --> 00:20:00.000 But Szent-Györgyi appreciated the logic, and so he was working on the respiratory chemistry, 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:07.000 and in the process accidentally discovered things like big parts of the Krebs cycle of the mitochondria 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000 and ascorbic acid and so on. 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:15.000 But this was really in the process of working on respiration itself. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.000 Is this what he received the Nobel Prize for? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:26.000 Yeah, for his discoveries that led to the Krebs cycle and ascorbic acid and so on, respiration, muscle studies too. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000 The muscle action was another one of Krebs things, you know, 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:41.000 the methylguanidine causing muscle contraction by donating electrons to a system that should have the electrons withdrawn by the oxidative catalyst. 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.000 And this became clearer and clearer in Szent-Györgyi's work, 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.000 why he was working both on muscle contraction and oxidative metabolism. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.000 At the time, it seemed like he was working on two separate lines. 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:08.000 But it is the explanation of Szent-Györgyi's whole career, basically, because he later became explicit in showing why the donation of electrons to muscles causes them to contract. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:19.000 And another theory besides the proton theory of acids, another theory that just becomes an obstacle to understanding is the membrane theory of cell function, 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:24.000 which explains cell electricity in terms of ions and protons. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:33.000 And Szent-Györgyi was working on the direct involvement of electrons and respiration as the primary thing that regulates those electrons. 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:43.000 And in consciousness, for example, consciousness disappears instantly when oxygen is no longer available to accept electrons, 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:48.000 before there's any detectable change in cellular energy level. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:55.000 And Szent-Györgyi was focusing on these things that really work, really explain cell physiology, 00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:01.000 and basically ignoring the silliness about protons and cell membranes and so on. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:11.000 And one of Szent-Györgyi's experiments involved adding electron donor chemicals and electron acceptor chemicals to a living muscle. 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:23.000 And if the donor and acceptor were related to each other in terms of their oxidation potential, the muscle would contract in their presence. 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:29.000 If these two molecule groups were not tuned to each other, the muscle wouldn't react. 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:39.000 And this was about as close as you can imagine coming to verifying what Koch was saying about the electron acceptor and donor, 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:47.000 that the donating an electron to a muscle system or any cellular system causes it to go into the active state, 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:55.000 and the high-energy oxidant causes it to stabilize and go into a resting state. 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:04.000 And for all of these people, Warburg, Koch, and Szent-Györgyi, cancer and allergy and muscle spasms and seizures 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:11.000 were all examples of the activated state in which there are excess electrons. 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:18.000 And oxidation was the basic answer to restoring the cell to a stable resting state. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:24.000 This puts the cancer problem in a different evolutionary light. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000 These people were seeing cell division as the basic state of any cell, 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:43.000 that at a point in evolution, oxidative respiration came in and made it possible for cells to stop dividing long enough to form part of a functioning multicellular organism. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:51.000 And so the reversion to cancer became simply interference with the ability to respire on the cellular level. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:57.000 So the problem with cancer and spasms and seizures is that your cells are just not getting the oxygen. 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.000 Or can't use it. 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:05.000 Warburg's definition of cancer metabolically was that it's aerobic glycolysis. 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Ordinarily, glycolysis is a process similar to fermentation in which sugar is used very wastefully, 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:19.000 and it happens in the absence of oxygen because metabolism is very efficient. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:24.000 And glycolysis happens normally only when there's no oxygen because it's so inefficient. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:31.000 And when you block the oxygen apparatus or the supply, you get intense glycolysis. 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:38.000 And so if it's the apparatus rather than the supply which is blocked, this is what happens in disease. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.000 And so this is aerobic glycolysis versus anaerobic. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.000 Anaerobic is the normal glycolysis. 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:51.000 Aerobic glycolysis is evidence that the respiring organ isn't working right. 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.000 And so all these people were on this different track of looking for the causes of disease and cancer. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:01.000 Why do you think they were so shunned by the powers that be, the medical people at the time? 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:09.000 Well, in the case of Koch, I think the way Koch tells the story is just that they couldn't understand. 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:19.000 And he actually makes sort of almost a case for rational behavior on the part of the government and the medical association. 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Just in terms of their being badly educated, badly motivated authoritarian people, 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:32.000 they simply couldn't see and didn't want to learn what these people were saying. 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:40.000 My professors all the way through college and graduate school treated Otto Warburg's work as a strange, 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:46.000 faint idea of this very famous, powerful German, even though he got the Nobel Prizes 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:54.000 and is recognized as solving both ends of the essential oxidative cellular mechanism, 00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:03.000 applying that to cancer, which he did very early, was simply put down as character flaw in this otherwise great scientist. 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:08.000 But it seems, I can see maybe they wouldn't understand and maybe they shunned him, shunned him, 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:15.000 but to try to kill Dr. Koch, it actually shows that they were threatened by him. 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Yeah, I think the way to understand it really, even though Koch does tell the story in his book, 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:29.000 I think the best way to get insight is to read Herbert Bailey's book about probiazone, 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.000 because here they were contemporaries. 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:39.000 Andrew Ivey was one of the biggest establishment doctors in the country, 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:47.000 the founder of several medical associations and vice president and head of the medical school at the University of Illinois. 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:54.000 He was chosen to help found the Naval Medical Research Institute in Bethesda 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.000 and ran it for a year during the Second World War. 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:03.000 The board of the American Medical Association, which he had belonged to, 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:11.000 chose him as America's representative to the Nuremberg trial to testify on universal medical ethics. 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.000 He was simply one of the biggest of shots in American medicine. 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:23.000 And when this Yugoslav doctor who had a cancer treatment, he thought, came to the United States, 00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000 he quickly found out who the big shot was in medicine and took his idea to Andrew Ivey, 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:38.000 who was an intelligent person and had been thinking along the lines that the cancer is the loss of some restraining process. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:43.000 He, I don't think, was quite up to the speed of Koch and Szent-Györgyi, 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:47.000 but he understood the thinking that was fairly common at that time, 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:53.000 that there might just be a lack of restraint that allows cells to start dividing. 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.000 And this line of thinking has been demonstrated over and over. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.000 For example, many people don't think about why our liver is as big as it is and no bigger 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.000 when it has such a capacity for producing new cells. 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:12.000 If you cut off half an animal's liver, it will regrow the liver to the right size. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:18.000 And if you join two rats together in their circulation and remove the liver of one rat, 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:25.000 the liver of the second rat grows to be twice its normal size so it can handle the circulation of both animals. 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:33.000 And this is a well-documented theory that it was these chemicals of restraint were called "palones," 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:38.000 P-A-L-O-N-E, meaning a restraining influence. 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.000 And it can be demonstrated in the cornea and in the skin and any organ that is able to divide. 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.000 If you take an extract of that and add it to the growing culture, 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:57.000 cell division stops specific to each tissue so that the organism knows how much of a given tissue or organ it should have. 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:01.000 And when that amount of calone is produced, cell division stops. 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:09.000 So the absence of that has been considered an obvious influence in abnormal tumor production. 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.000 And people were, at that time, many people were working on tissue extracts, 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:22.000 trying to get that sort of stuff in a form that would be general enough to apply to a tumor of different tissues. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.000 And some people would extract tumors. 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.000 One of the main lines of thinking was to extract it from urine or from the kidney or from the liver, 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.000 something that had a general regulatory function. 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:41.000 Szent-Györgyi was extracting it from human urine, and he called it "retin" versus "promine," 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:46.000 "promine" being the amino promoter of growth and "retin" being the restraining influence. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:55.000 And for example, Leonel Strong, who developed the mice colonies that are in common use, 00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000 he developed strains that 100% of them will get breast cancer. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:08.000 And with using extracts of liver, Leonel Strong showed that he could not only cure the cancer of the individual, 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:14.000 but even that individual's descendants for several generations would be free of cancer. 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:23.000 So he was demonstrating hereditary imprinting as well as the cologne principle of tissue extract curing. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:25.000 He was getting the cologne straight from the liver? 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:31.000 Yeah, he had a time when he was using shark liver, but I talked to him, 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:36.000 and he said that he thought that any kind of liver would have the active material. 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.000 And I experimented with beef liver and so on. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:49.000 And you get a lot of the substances that are similar to what Coke was working with in the kind of extract that you do. 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000 Anyway, Andrew Ivey knew about this other line of research, 00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:02.000 and so when the Yugoslav doctor said that he had vaccinated horses with an organism that causes tumors, 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:09.000 actinomyces bovis, and produced a tumor and then extracted the blood of the horses, 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:16.000 let the blood clot and then extracted it the way these other people were doing liver and blood and urine and so on. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:22.000 The technique I learned from Leonel Strong was to use absolute ethanol, 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.000 grind up the liver into a fine powder in the absolute ethanol, 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:34.000 and then evaporate the alcohol from the material you've extracted and then resuspend it in water. 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:40.000 That was exactly the technique that Ivey learned from the Dureviks, 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:48.000 and it was a standard technique for getting things that are slightly oil-soluble and slightly water-soluble. 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000 It forms a sort of emulsion when you take it up in the water. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:00.000 The Durevik got his attention because he knew that it was in principle biologically reasonable, 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.000 and so he immediately was interested in testing it, 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 and he took patients whose doctors said they had only about one or two month life expectancy 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:15.000 because they were so seriously sick with cancer. 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.000 In these people who were on their last leg, he saw a dramatic result, 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:25.000 and at that point he wasn't looking for a cure, 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.000 and he was using very tiny doses like 10 micrograms per patient, 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:37.000 but one injection would cause a very high proportion of the patients to have dramatic improvement. 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:46.000 He reported this after just about two years of tests in which a lot of the patients did end up dying, 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:51.000 and the responses to one or two injections were so amazing that Ivey said, 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:58.000 "This stuff has to be studied in better ways as there have to be double-blind studies," and so on. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:05.000 This book by Herbert Bailey documents in just the most horrifying way 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:10.000 the ways in which the power structure started acting. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:15.000 One after the other, Andrew Ivey's physicians were taken away from him. 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.000 He was fired from his vice presidency, and then his professorship, 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:24.000 he was kicked out of even the scientific organizations that he had founded. 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:30.000 One after the other, they would threaten him and say, "You'll be punished if you don't give it to us," 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.000 and he would say, "No, it should be tested publicly," and he would lose another job, 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.000 and he went from being at the very top of American medicine 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.000 to being basically a community college teacher for the rest of his life, 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:52.000 and as late as 1964, he was interviewed and asked if he didn't regret having stuck by his insistence 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.000 that the stuff should be tested, and he said no, he still thought it should be tested. 00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.000 Good for him. 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.000 Well, and that's just because he wanted to test it. 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.000 He wasn't saying it was the cure-all or anything. 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.000 No. 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.000 Well, it makes you wonder what the motives are. 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:13.000 Well, the book, a good place to start, even before reading the book, 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.000 is to look at the congressional record from the 88th Congress 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:24.000 and the material that Illinois Senator Paul Douglas introduced into the congressional record, 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.000 the sworn testimony and a very ordered presentation in a compact form 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.000 documenting the things that Bailey says in the book, 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:40.000 and among those are naming people of two big drug companies 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:47.000 and the treasurer of the American Medical Association as offering him as much as $2.5 million, 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:52.000 offering the Durex $2.5 million for the rights of the chemical, 00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:00.000 and they refused, and the offers are still existing documents of the offers, 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.000 and basically a conspiracy, and he said it in print and over and over, 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.000 like the senator in the congressional record said, 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:14.000 "If this wasn't true, why aren't these chemical companies and the AMA officials 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:20.000 and the AMA itself and the journal of the AMA, why aren't they suing for slander?" 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.000 Because these are such horrible things that are said about them, 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:29.000 that they engaged in a criminal conspiracy to control something they thought apparently 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.000 was of tremendous economic value, 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:37.000 and one of the most convincing things is that they refused to comment 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.000 even on why they wouldn't sue for slander or libel. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000 Are you familiar with Dr. Samuel Epstein? 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.000 Oh, yeah. He's one of the still-living good guys. 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.000 Yeah, I got to see his website. 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000 He's very critical of the American Cancer Society 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.000 and basically feels they're doing nothing on the prevention front. 00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:00.000 He feels that many chemicals that are being released into the environment 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:05.000 by industry and pharmaceuticals are causing cancer, and that mammograms, 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.000 he feels that mammograms actually are not only not useful, 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.000 but they actually can spread cancer. 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:17.000 Yeah, yeah. John Goffman, his whole book on the prevention of breast cancer 00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:23.000 is posted on the Internet, and Goffman, G-O-F-F-M-A-N, 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:30.000 he was one of the Atomic Energy Commission's defenders of radiation in the '50s. 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000 That was how I came across him. 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Linus Pauling was the only scientist saying that radiation is bad for you. 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:41.000 Everyone else supported by the government, including John Goffman, 00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:44.000 who was medical officer for the Warrant Lab, 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.000 he discovered an isotope and so on. 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:52.000 He was a very top figure in medical physics, basically, 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:57.000 in physics itself, and so he was put out as a defender of the safety of radiation. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:03.000 But in the '60s, he started thinking about what he was saying, 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:06.000 and he explains how his conversion happened. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:11.000 He simply started thinking about what words he was saying publicly 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.000 and realized that they were crazy. 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Yeah, the lupicity. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:21.000 He says that three-quarters of breast cancers are caused by radiation, 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000 primarily medical radiation. 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000 Right. I was reading something that you had sent me 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.000 that said that bone density scans are basically x-rays. 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.000 Yeah. 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.000 I had never known that, and I have friends who are going in for bone density scans. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Yeah, the terrible thing is that they're going to recommend that you do it anyway 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.000 because your old and old people have thinning bones, 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:46.000 so why do they bother finding out how thin your bones are? 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:52.000 And especially when ultrasound technology exists that is more meaningful, 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.000 it will actually tell you the strength of your bones, not just how dense they are. 00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.000 And in the Journal of the American Medical Association itself, 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:07.000 someone published a little graph showing tremendous inaccuracy of the bone scan 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 because of differences in fat and water in the tissues, 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:14.000 and some people have a lot of fat in their bone marrow 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.000 and others have very little fat but a lot of fluid. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:23.000 And estrogen, for example, affects the distribution of fat and fluid in your body. 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:28.000 And this technique, one of the reasons the bone scan is popular 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.000 is that estrogen seems to increase bone density, 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:35.000 where all through the early, oh, the '60s and '70s, 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.000 all of the evidence showed when you grind up the bones, 00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.000 they're not made more dense by estrogen. 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Estrogen causes calcium retention but no increase of bone density, 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000 but the x-ray technique used now for scanning 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:53.000 sometimes does give an apparent increase in bone density, 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:57.000 but this publication shows that the fat-water artifact, 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:02.000 which can be influenced by estrogen, could explain any apparent benefit. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.000 And since the ultrasound measures the strength as well as the density, 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:13.000 there are many overwhelming arguments why no one should ever have a bone scan. 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:17.000 And besides being harmless and meaningful and accurate, 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.000 the ultrasound happens to stimulate bone growth, 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:24.000 where x-rays accelerate bone loss. 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.000 Every time you get a bone scan, 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.000 your bones are going to go away a little faster just for the x-rays. 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.000 So that applies to the x-rays in the teeth, too. 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.000 Yeah, and the x-rays bounce off your teeth and jaw bones 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.000 accelerate the atrophy of your jaw bone, 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.000 but the bouncing rays go into your brain, 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:49.000 and they know that the dental x-rays cause thyroid cancer and eye cancer, 00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:53.000 cancer of the eyeball, and if they're bouncing to that extent, 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.000 obviously they're going through the brain, 00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.000 and the brain is the most sensitive of all tissues to radiation. 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.000 And so a great way to produce Alzheimer's disease 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.000 ought to be to have lots of dental x-rays. 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Oh, God. Wow. 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:10.000 It gives me another reason to be not so happy about going to the dentist. 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Do you think they could use ultrasound on your teeth? 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:18.000 Yeah. There are instruments already existing that give very fine resolution. 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.000 All you need is a transducer that you can put in your mouth, 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.000 and someone has made those, 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.000 and you can produce very fine resolution pictures of any structure you want to. 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:31.000 Wow. So all you dentists out there that are listening, take note. 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:35.000 Maybe you should say where to get Herbert Bailey's book or what the name of it is. 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.000 It's probably out of print, isn't it? 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.000 Oh, maybe one of them is in print, but you can find them somewhere. 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:46.000 Old bookstores would be where I would look, or libraries. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.000 The pressure caused the first publisher to fold up within a year, 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:56.000 and book reviews were canceled, and positive reviews were canceled 00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:01.000 while negative, dishonest reviews were published. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:06.000 So it isn't a popular book to publish or republish, 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.000 so it's probably going to be hard to find. 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:13.000 I see. But the name of it was by Herbert Bailey, and the book was called "Krebizen"? 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:19.000 Yeah, one was K-Krebizen, "E to Cancer," something like that. 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:21.000 The title is clear enough. 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:24.000 So it's K-R-E-B-I-O-Z-E-N. 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.000 I-O-Z-E-N. Okay. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.000 Thanks for listening to Politics and Science today. 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:33.000 If you want to find out more about Raymond Peat, you can go to his website, 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:37.000 RayPeat, R-A-Y-P-E-A-T, dot com. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.000 If you have any questions for Politics and Science, 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:45.000 you can direct them by e-mail to politicsandscience@madriver.com. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.000 That's politicsandscience@madriver.com. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.000 Politics and Science presents the viewpoints of its participants 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.000 and does not necessarily reflect the viewpoints of any other person or organization. 00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.000 You're listening to W-O-O-L 100.1 FM.