WEBVTT 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:08.000 Alright, this is WMRW LP1 and I think I have Maggie on the line. Maggie, can you hear me? 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:10.000 Yes, I can and I'm right here. 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.000 Okay, great. That doesn't sound too bad. We're talking to Maggie Gunderson today. 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:18.000 This is Politics and Science on the 16th of March, 2011. 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:24.000 And today we're discussing our nuclear catastrophe in our world today happening in Japan. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:31.000 And after Maggie's off, we'll be talking to Raymond Peat. Dr. Raymond Peat is a physiologist from Eugene, Oregon, 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 talking about how to mitigate the effects of radiation. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Maggie Gunderson is a founder and president of Fairwinds Associates and a freelance paralegal specializing in environmental, 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:45.000 nuclear safety and energy litigation in federal and state administrative law hearings. 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:49.000 And you worked in the nuclear industry for a while, right Maggie, as did your husband Arnie? 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:51.000 Yes, we both did. That's where we met. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:57.000 Well, thankful that you're with us here today. And I was hoping you could bring us up to date with what exactly is happening 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.000 over in Japan and what the ramifications are for that part of the world and for us. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:08.000 Okay, well, the news that just came during the last hour is that all the fuel has 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.000 Say that again, we lost you there. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:18.000 All the fuel has boiled dry in Unit 4 and that was in the spent fuel pool. It's not in the reactor itself. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:27.000 Now that was a full core offload. So that's a tremendous amount of radioactive fuel that is getting very, very hot. 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:34.000 And there's a fear that it could catch on fire. If it catches fire, those particles become airborne. 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.000 A worse scenario than having a meltdown. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 It is? 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:44.000 Yes, it is. Because that radiation will travel anywhere. If there's a meltdown, it does get into the water table, 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:51.000 but you're able to monitor. You might even be able to, they might even be able to corral some of the contamination 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:58.000 and do things to mitigate. This is airborne and this will go wherever the air blows. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:04.000 It's like if you see someone smoking a cigarette and somebody just walks past and the plume changes. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:08.000 This plume can move in whatever direction the wind is blowing. 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:15.000 It can go toward Tokyo, toward the U.S., toward Mainland China and across the rest of Japan. 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.000 It can go whichever way the wind is blowing. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:23.000 And I know Chernobyl was terrible because it was an explosion and that forced the radiation. 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.000 And that was a core meltdown, wasn't it? 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:35.000 No, there was a graphite fire. The Chernobyl plant is a graphite plant and was not a liquid reactor like we're talking about. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:44.000 And there was a fire in the graphite. Only at Chernobyl, only 90, well, only 3% of the radiation escaped. 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:50.000 The other 97% is still inside the containment inside the sarcophagus that they built around it. 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:56.000 This accident, since the containment has failed, this radiation is getting out to the environment. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:04.000 Matter of fact, the U.S. Surgeon General was on a tour in California and spoke of the fact that anyone in the U.S. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:08.000 should consider getting potassium iodide to protect their thyroid. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.000 It would be a prudent thing to do. 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:19.000 And the NRC announced today and the State Department announced today that they've told all personnel in Japan, 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:26.000 U.S. personnel in Japan, to go at least 80 miles away from what's happening. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.000 And that's more than double what the Japanese are saying. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:36.000 So the NRC is usually, I never thought of them as being actually that worried about low-level radiation. 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:43.000 Well, it's not low-level radiation. It's not an explosion like a bomb, but it's not low-level radiation. 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.000 Okay. 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:50.000 There are no more personnel on site operating the plant. They've had to remove them because the radiation levels are too high. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.000 So basically, they're just running their course. 00:03:53.000 --> 00:04:01.000 They're running their course. They do have people who are risking their lives to keep putting water on the plant and taking care of the plant. 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:08.000 That way to try and keep pumping seawater up there. But there's no operational things that they can do. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:15.000 And so that's the fuel rods. Are they the ones in -- is number four one of the reactors that was out of commission? 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.000 And so all the fuel rods were waiting to be -- 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.000 Yes. All the fuel rods had been offloaded into the fuel pool. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:32.000 So what's really scary about that is that there is no -- there are no rods put in, control rods to put in to slow down the reaction. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:40.000 The fuel rods are in the fuel pool, and there's no way to -- as the water burns off, there's nothing to keep that fuel pool cool. 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.000 Geez. 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:50.000 If the fuel gets really hot and starts a chain reaction, it cannot be stopped because there's not anything to moderate that chain reaction. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:57.000 That was the difference with Chernobyl. Chernobyl is a plant that works -- as the chain reaction is going on inside, 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:04.000 the operators have to work really hard to pull it back. It's like a gas pedal pushing downwards all the time. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:11.000 In the Japanese plants, which are the same as the Vermont Yankee plant, they're boiling water reactors, the same vintage, same design. 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.000 They're Westing -- I mean, they're General Electric boiling water reactors, 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:21.000 and they also -- both General Electric and Westinghouse now are owned by the Japanese. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:30.000 The boiling water reactor work -- you have to push the gas. You have to push the reaction to happen, and you have a lot of control on it. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:36.000 But they don't have control on this because this is the spent fuel all just sitting there together. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.000 There's no control rods in there. 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:45.000 And as the decay heat causes many chain reactions, you could have a fire or a meltdown in the fuel pool itself. 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.000 So that's -- 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.000 And that's as technical -- that's about as technical as I can get. 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:56.000 You listed on your website that I'm a nuclear expert, and I am an industry expert, but I'm not. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:02.000 I'm a paralegal, and I'm a mediator, and that's the angle. I'm not as technical as Arnie. 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:08.000 Okay. Well, you're probably more technical than I am and most of the people listening, so I think that suffices. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:14.000 What's the -- so that's just going into freefall, basically, and what's the state of the other reactors? 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:18.000 There's six of them there; is that right, at that Fukushima power station? 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.000 Yes. There are -- two of them already are in partial meltdown. 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:27.000 What happens when you have -- when the reactor's operating and when they stopped it? 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:33.000 And when the storm came up, when the earthquake started, they stopped the reaction. 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.000 Emergency system worked, and the reaction was stopped. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:43.000 But when they couldn't keep the reactor cool, there are things that -- there's 5% of the heat is decay heat, 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.000 and that is what has kept burning. 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:50.000 The other 95% was stopped, but the decay heat is enough to keep boiling off all the water. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.000 The diesel had gotten swamped by the tsunami, so they didn't have any backup power, 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.000 and they couldn't cool the reactor for a really long time, any of them. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:03.000 So my understanding -- and this has been changing hour by hour, so I'm not -- 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:05.000 I can't be totally clear on what's happening. 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.000 I saw three different reports before I came on with you. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.000 Two reactors have had a partial meltdown. 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:16.000 You know, they have parts that are melting down, and how bad that will be will depend on how much seawater 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.000 these employees who are risking their lives being in such a high radiation area. 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:23.000 I mean, it's just incredible. 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:29.000 They are pumping in tons of seawater to try and make like a lake under the reactors. 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:34.000 These reactors are raised, though, and in a boiling water reactor, 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:38.000 the control rods come up from the bottom into the reactor itself. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.000 So whereas a pressurized water reactor -- and I worked on pressurized water reactors. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.000 I have never worked with boiling water reactors. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.000 I worked on nuclear fuel reload core design. 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000 So that's doing the calculations for the fuel -- each fuel reload on PWRs. 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:58.000 However, you know, whether it's a year or 18 months, whatever, the utility has decided to run for it. 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:02.000 And the BWRs, the control rods come up from the bottom. 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.000 So those daughter products can come through. 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.000 The bottom of the reactor is not as tight as on a pressurized water reactor. 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.000 It's very tight. 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.000 The control rods come down from the top. 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.000 So those daughter products that are generating all this excess heat are slumping into the bottom 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:22.000 and making a molten mass, and that is coming out of the bottom of the reactor. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.000 That's why they're trying to cool it. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:29.000 They're making a lake underneath that between the base of the metal reactor and, you know, 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.000 the vessel itself and the concrete base of the containment. 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:37.000 Someone asked me, is this special concrete, you know, special nuclear-grade concrete. 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:38.000 It's concrete. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.000 It's just regular concrete. 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.000 I mean, like you would find on a bridge or something. 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:44.000 There's not a special nuclear grade to it. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:49.000 And how long can that hold up to temperatures that I've heard are like 2200 degrees? 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Well, as--no one knows. 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.000 I mean, we're in uncharted territory here. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.000 The fuel pool can get up to 4000 degrees, and we're in uncharted territory. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.000 And there are some studies--I looked at them today-- 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.000 and NEI, the Nuclear Energy Institute, which is the lobbying arm of the industry, 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.000 is saying, you know, there can't be a fire in the fuel pool where there's already been one. 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.000 You know, the containment can't leak. 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.000 Well, two of them have blown their lids off. 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:14.000 Right, so this-- 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:18.000 We need to go back and look at the general design criteria on every nuclear plant. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.000 And a lot of them are just--they're too old. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:26.000 Vermont Yankee, Oyster Creek, Cogrom, these are very, very old, old, old plants 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.000 that don't have any current safety standards around them. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:35.000 And they have been--all of the parameters under which they were built have been grandfathered in, 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.000 so they don't meet the current regulations. 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.000 Yeah, that's scary. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.000 And Vermont Yankee got an uprate 10 years ago, I think, so it's actually-- 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:47.000 An uprate is really a frightening thing because if there's an accident at Vermont Yankee, 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:53.000 then there is 40% more radiation than a normal accident because of the uprate. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:57.000 Even though the uprate was 25%, the way that the daughter product act, 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:02.000 the way the material act, you get 40% more radiation in the uprate. 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:09.000 And the emergency evacuation plan was designed around the way the plant was built before the uprate. 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:14.000 It is not possible to get everyone out before there would be a lethal dose 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.000 if there was a severe accident at Yankee like there has been here 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:23.000 because there's just--the evacuation plan, emergency plan does not work. 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:25.000 We only have a few more minutes, Maggie Gunderson. 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.000 I was wondering--people would say, well, the Vermont Yankee is not at risk 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:33.000 because it's not an earthquake zone and there's no danger of tsunami, 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.000 but it is next to a river. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.000 Is there a flooding danger there? 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.000 Yes, there is a flooding danger there. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:44.000 Hurricanes that could knock out power or do something to unstabilize the grid. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:49.000 Vermont Yankee's backup power is diesel, just like the plants in Japan. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.000 If they were involved in a flood or a hurricane and couldn't operate, 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.000 then there's no backup power there. 00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:01.000 And if a huge storm, flooding, knocked out the service water that cools the plant 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.000 and that comes out of the Connecticut River, or a terrorist--I mean, 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:10.000 one of the things--Union of Concerned Scientists has really worked hard pushing the NRC 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:16.000 on the threat matrix since 9/11, since 2001. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.000 There's not enough protection at these intake structures. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:25.000 And if somebody took a Miami Vice-style boat and filled it with dynamite 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:28.000 and ran it in there and knocked out the service water at the same time 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.000 the diesels were knocked out somehow, you couldn't cool that plant. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.000 And the NRC does not consider that a realistic part of its threat matrix, 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:38.000 so they don't even consider these as possibilities. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.000 Well, that's not very reassuring, to say the least. 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.000 Maggie, I know you're not a meteorologist, 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:48.000 but do you know how the fallout from what's happening in Japan might behave? 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.000 Have you talked to anybody who has an opinion about that? 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.000 I don't know that. No one knows. And again, no one knows. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.000 I mean, will a lot of that come from the Pacific and come to the U.S.? 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:03.000 There was extensive data from bomb testing that was done in the Pacific originally, 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:09.000 and a lot of that strontium and cesium were carried to the U.S. during those tests 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.000 and absorbed into kids' muscles and bones and things. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:17.000 So I don't know. No one knows. We're in uncharted territory. 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:21.000 This accident is worse than Three Mile Island, worse than Chernobyl, 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 and is the worst accident that this world has ever seen, 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:28.000 of any kind of industrial accident or any kind of-- 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 You know, in terms of an illness, the only other thing that was as bad as this 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.000 was the bubonic plague, but that ended. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:39.000 Here, there's a half-life of hundreds of years on some of these radioactive isotopes 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:45.000 and with plutonium, and these plants are running with a mix with some plutonium in them. 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.000 There's going to be 250,000-year waste left. 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.000 Well, it sounds like you were once, I assume, in favor of nuclear power. 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.000 It sounds like you may have changed your position. 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.000 That's correct. I was in favor of nuclear power. 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:03.000 I believe-- You know, I'm a woman, and I was part of Jobs for Energy Independence, 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.000 which was a U.S. organization, and I was working in the nuclear industry 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.000 in part to make sure when there's plenty of energy available, 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.000 women and minorities have jobs. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:19.000 When energy gets really costly or there's economic issues, women and minorities lose those. 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.000 So that's why I began in the nuclear industry. 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:26.000 And the scientists had assured me it was the safest thing, and I don't believe it anymore. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.000 Well, I can see why. Maggie, I'm going to have to-- 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:29.000 I hope-- Oh, go ahead, please. 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:33.000 I hope I've answered all your questions, and I want to tell everyone, please, 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:38.000 to be praying or thinking for the people of Japan. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.000 This is a terrible, terrible tragedy. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:43.000 All right. Thank you very much, Maggie Gunderson. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.000 I hope to check in with you again soon. 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:47.000 Okay. You're very welcome, John. Take care. 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:48.000 Yeah, you too. Bye. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.000 All right. That was Maggie Gunderson, who is founder and president of Fairwind Associates. 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.000 She's a freelance paralegal specializing in environmental nuclear safety 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and energy litigation in federal and state administrative law hearings. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.000 So I'm going to put on some music and-- Let's see. 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Something by Tom Waits. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.000 And I'll be back with Dr. Raymond Peat, a physiologist, 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:14.000 and we'll be talking about radiation, its effect on life, and how to mitigate the negative effects, 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:15.000 which I think is all they have. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Here's Tom Waits. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:21.000 Just like a bullet in the charcoal eyes of Monroe 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:26.000 She wouldn't took it then to California for a trip 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.000 Moon was gold and her hair like wind 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Said don't look back just come on Jim 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:40.000 Oh, you got to hold, hold, got to hold 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.000 Standing right here you got to hold me 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:47.000 Store watch 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:51.000 And a ring made from a spoon 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:55.000 Everyone's looking for someone to blame 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.000 And you share my bill, you share mine 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:05.000 All right. I'm back live here on the 16th of March with Dr. Raymond Peat, 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:10.000 who's a physiologist and a biologist and a science historian from Eugene, Oregon. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.000 Ray, can you hear me? 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.000 Yes, very well. 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:14.000 Oh, good. You sound great. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:16.000 Well, thanks for coming on today. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:21.000 I thought considering the catastrophe and tragedy that's happening in Japan right now, 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:25.000 we talk about radiation, which is probably going to be circulating around the globe, 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:30.000 and some of it will be heading toward the United States and Canada, I'm sure. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.000 And I thought maybe we could talk about radiation's effects on the body 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.000 and in ways that it can be mitigated. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.000 So maybe you could start out just by talking about radiation. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:48.000 The first issue of my newsletter in 1981 was about the issue of radiation damage. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.000 Radiation damage? 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:55.000 Yeah. And I read lots of mostly Soviet research. 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:59.000 They were the ones mostly interested in how to repair damage. 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:06.000 And the main factors are the amount of magnesium in the cell and the metabolic rate. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:14.000 And it happens that thyroid hormone is what's needed for the cells to retain magnesium at a high level. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:24.000 And this old research that I reviewed 30 years ago, the central idea was the high metabolic rate 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:32.000 dating repair processes so that once the damage was done, it was almost immediately repaired. 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:37.000 The thyroid function was very high, allowing the cells to retain magnesium. 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:45.000 And just in the last couple of years, a group studying the radio-resistant bacteria, 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.000 they've been found in several situations. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:57.000 They were discovered at Oregon State University when they were sterilizing food with super intense radiation in a can. 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:02.000 And the irradiated food, after a few weeks, rotted. 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:07.000 And they found there were bacteria that survived millions of rad. 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:17.000 And this type of bacteria just recently was found not to have any special resistance of its DNA, 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:27.000 because the protein system that repairs the DNA is what is uniquely resistant to radiation damage. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.000 So the DNA can be torn into tiny fragments, 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:37.000 but if you have the enzyme left for repairing the bacteria, 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:42.000 it re-strips all their DNA from tiny little scraps if their proteins are good. 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:51.000 And this group recently discovered that manganese is a central factor for these bacteria. 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:58.000 What the manganese is doing is catalyzing very fast tabulism of glucose. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:04.000 Hey, Ray, I'm going to interrupt because we're having the same phone problem again where it's clipping your voice. 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.000 Yes, it's a terrible echo. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.000 Oh, you're getting an echo. I didn't know that. How's that? 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.000 When you talk, how is that? 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000 That made it decrease. 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.000 There's a slight echo, but it sounded like there were three of us for a while. 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.000 I just don't understand why it's doing that. 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.000 Well, try it again and we'll see if it goes. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.000 I may call you back and see if we can get rid of that. 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:32.000 Okay. Anyway, the very fast glucose metabolism is almost all turned into carbon dioxide. 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:40.000 And carbon dioxide happens to protect, to stick to amino groups of protein. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:49.000 And that's been my approach to defense against aging and stress, keep the carbon dioxide up high in mammals. 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:58.000 But apparently these bacteria carry it to an extreme so that they can survive millions of rads of ionizing radiation. 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.000 I see. So you're saying that their metabolism is high enough. 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:04.000 Does this have to do with the thyroid function as well? 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000 Well, it resembles, it's parallel to the thyroid function. 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:18.000 They do it just by this manganese containing enzyme system that very powerfully turns glucose into carbon dioxide. 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:28.000 But in mammals, it's the thyroid hormone that's primarily responsible for turning glucose and fat into carbon dioxide. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:33.000 So one of the problems with radiation is that it does damage the thyroid. 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:46.000 And I know that I guess my last guest just said that the American surgeon general who's traveling abroad just recommended that people get a supply of potassium iodine to take, which I hadn't heard this. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:20:04.000 The CDC a few days ago recommended a single dose of 160 milligrams of potassium iodide for an adult to be repeated if the iodine cloud stays around for more than one day. 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Kelp or dulse or other iodine rich seaweed, a few grams per day will do that if you don't have the pure potassium iodide. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:26.000 And even the antiseptic tincture of iodine, if you paint them on your skin, people have used that to disinfect water. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:34.000 So if you're not allergic to that, that's an alternative way of getting your iodine up. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:51.000 But I think the basic thing is to keep your thyroid hormone active if necessary by using a supplement of thyroid hormone to keep your thyroid stimulating hormone, the TSH, down as close to zero as you can get it. 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Because that's good for many reasons, including that your thyroid isn't going to be metabolizing and so it won't take up the toxic concentration of radioactive iodine if your TSH is kept at zero. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:12.000 And meanwhile, the high thyroid activity is going to accelerate the repair processes. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:24.000 If you rely on potassium iodide, that's going to dilute the radioactive contaminant so that it doesn't destroy your thyroid gland. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:39.000 But the potassium iodide tends to suppress your thyroid function, lowering the whole body's metabolic rate, and that makes it increasingly susceptible to radiation damage. 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:52.000 If you think of the inverse relationship between thyroid and estrogen, a low thyroid person usually has very high estrogen. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:57.000 A very high thyroid person has low estrogen. 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:23.000 Estrogen synergizes with radiation damage, so a low thyroid person is doing many things to make all of their tissues more susceptible to injury by all of the radiation sources, which include carbon isotopes, stesium, strontium isotopes are important ones in nuclear fallout. 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:38.000 And the iodine suppressing your thyroid gland, as the CDC recommends, isn't going to do anything at all to protect you against strontium, cesium, carbon, and other radiation sources. 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:45.000 And in fact, will tend to make you more susceptible to injury by them by suppressing your thyroid function. 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:50.000 Because if your thyroid is functioning, you'll be able to remove those quicker? 00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000 Yeah, the cells are producing carbon dioxide, which forms a defensive barrier on the proteins, keeping them from suffering destructive oxidation. 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:24.000 And the magnesium retained by the thyroid is used in the repair enzymes for DNA repair. And at the same time, you're lowering the estrogen throughout your body, which you want to avoid that synergistic effect of radiation and estrogen. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:34.000 Now, you said that potassium iodide is not good for you in the long run. In the short run, that would be something to do if you didn't have any other choice, I suppose. 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:43.000 Yeah, if you don't have thyroid pills or kelp or dulse or seaweed, then potassium iodide is fine if you're not allergic to it. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:50.000 Some people have a very intense inflammatory reaction when they take iodide or iodine. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:59.000 And in terms of raising your thyroid function, most people probably won't be able to get their hands on any thyroid supplements. How can they do that? 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:05.000 Well, the quickest way is to make sure that you're getting enough food and fuel. 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:10.000 Sugar, moment by moment, is used by your liver to activate the thyroid hormone. 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:32.000 So if you go hungry for several hours, your thyroid is going to decrease its function. And on even a shorter scale than just keeping your body well nourished, coconut oil with its short-chain saturated fatty acids competes with the inhibiting unsaturated fats that are always tending to circulate in the body. 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:46.000 And those are acting as a brake on the thyroid, so the coconut oil short-chain fats are able to compete against the inhibitors of the thyroid, momentarily liberating a higher thyroid function. 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:56.000 So that only lasts a couple hours for a tablespoon of coconut oil. So if you add nothing else, you could eat a tablespoon of coconut oil every couple of hours. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.000 And that's better than butter and other saturated fat? 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Only in the sense that it activates your thyroid function more powerfully. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:10.000 I see. And what about vitamin E and vitamin C and things like that? Are they at all important? 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:16.000 Not very. In some situations, they're protective against radiation. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:27.000 But when I was reviewing the literature 30 years ago, they were somewhat ambiguous and nothing very interesting has turned up since then. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000 Progesterone as an anti-estrogen is probably one of the other short-range protective things. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:40.000 I see. If people could take progesterone, that would lower the synergistic effect of radiation and estrogen. 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:50.000 You said before that radiation is very similar in its effects to estrogen, and people actually take estrogen as a supplement in hormone replacement. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Could you comment on the similarity in the effects of radiation and estrogen? 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:10.000 A lot of this research was done in the late 1930s, and the estrogen functions were identified as similar to suffocation and stress and radiation. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:25.000 And about 15 years later, when the concept of estrogen receptor was introduced, there was a great push to distract people from the biochemical effects of estrogen 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:38.000 and blame all of estrogen's effects on the actions of a receptor protein, which was supposed to activate the genes which create the female traits. 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:51.000 But it turned out that the research was supported by the Atomic Energy Commission, and it claimed that estrogen is not metabolized in the cells where it's acting. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000 Twenty years later, that was proven to be absolutely false. 00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:08.000 The fact that it was supported by the Atomic Energy Commission and done by a man who had been working in chemical warfare, I think, makes up the whole foundation of the receptor theory suspect. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:19.000 Because the 1930s research was very clear that any stress activates, including the protein that is now called the estrogen receptor, 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:27.000 any injury to the organism increases the appearance of the estrogen receptor as well as the estrogen functions, 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:39.000 which include inflammation, water uptake, suppression of the respiratory function, and eventually atrophy and fibrosis and calcification. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:40.000 And cancer. 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.000 Yeah. 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.000 And radiation has those similar effects, I understand. 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:57.000 Yeah. Biochemically, my dissertation was part of it was trying to find anything different between radiation stress and estrogen's effect. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And I couldn't find any basic physiological or biochemical difference between them. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:09.000 They both interfere with oxidative metabolism and activate the stress metabolism. 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:19.000 So I think that means that we have evolved estrogen simply as a way to activate certain biological processes, 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:25.000 cell division in preparation for implantation of the embryo and uterus, 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.000 cell division to develop the breast to give milk, 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.000 and cell division in the pituitary to activate prolactin secretion. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:41.000 And it takes only about 12 hours of exposure to estrogen to get those processes going. 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:50.000 And so I think the biological meaning of estrogen is just like a quick jumpstart function for certain processes. 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:57.000 And the chronic use of it is completely contrary to the real biological research 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:08.000 and really has no foundation other than the marketing departments of the drug companies and whatever the military has in mind. 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.000 How does the military fit into this? 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.000 Well, they are the ones that promoted the concept of the estrogen receptor. 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:22.000 Elwood Benson went from working on chemical warfare to working on the estrogen receptor. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.000 And his group and the people in it have formed a tradition supported by the Pentagon. 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:37.000 Some of them have been working more recently at Lawrence Livermore Radiation Lab on the estrogen receptor. 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:45.000 So for 60 years now, it has been of great importance, first to the military and the Atomic Energy Commission, 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.000 and now to various government agencies. 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:56.000 That seems a little bizarre to me, but I guess they're always looking for things to use as weapons, basically. 00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:03.000 Yeah, at different times they have been interested in its birth control effect, population control. 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:08.000 That's one of the things they were studying, I think, when they, I think you've written about this, 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:15.000 they did releases of large amounts of radiation and then studied the effect it had on population and sterility and such. 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.000 Yeah, and estrogen is really a more controllable way to sterilize the population. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:28.000 Maybe you could talk a little bit about what the danger we face from what's coming out of Japan now 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.000 and this tragic meltdown of the nuclear reactors. 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:37.000 And is this particulate radiation that we're going to be exposed to 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.000 and that's going to go up into the atmosphere and travel around the globe? 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:47.000 Yeah, as long as it stays very high in the atmosphere and doesn't rain out, it isn't going to do too much harm. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:55.000 But if it doesn't rain out in the Pacific and if it happens to get through a dry spell for a few days across the Pacific 00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:00.000 and then rains out wherever it comes down, it will do a lot of damage. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:07.000 A few of the bombs that exploded in Nevada happened to stay in the air 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:14.000 until one of the fallout clouds rained down in Pennsylvania, I guess, 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.000 was the one that Ernest Sternglass happened to be on the site 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:24.000 and saw that his radiation measurements were showing extreme contamination 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.000 while the government was saying nothing had happened. 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:32.000 And that started Sternglass on his research on what was really happening 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:39.000 and he showed how the US Public Health Service was collaborating with the Atomic Energy Commission 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:46.000 and even state government agencies to put out false information and destroy the actual data. 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:50.000 Whatever we're going to hear from the governments of Japan and the United States, 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.000 I don't think there's any precedent for thinking there'll be any truth in it. 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:58.000 Yeah, I was just reading the introduction to a book about Chernobyl 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:03.000 that was published in this country just recently and edited by Janet Sherman. 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:08.000 And that book starts off with saying that you'd think that the governments would want to study 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:14.000 the actual data of these accidents to improve the safety of nuclear power plants 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.000 and to understand what happens when things go wrong. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.000 But this Russian scientist was saying that all this information was suppressed 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.000 after the Chernobyl nuclear accident. 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.000 And it sounds like you're saying that you think the same thing will happen now, most likely. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:33.000 You can't have a nuclear industry or a popular nuclear deterrent idea 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:41.000 if people understand the dangers are very likely to happen from things that are fairly uncontrollable. 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:49.000 Mining the material and disposing of the material are sources of radiation exposure. 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:56.000 And they are now talking about avoiding the carbon increase in the atmosphere to prevent global warming. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:03.000 But they neglect the amount of carbon used in mining and manufacturing. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:12.000 There's a great petroleum expense in producing the fuel and the factories for making the atomic energy. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:21.000 So it's very polluting in the carbon sense, as well as the much worse pollution from the mining debris 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:28.000 and the waste disposal problems besides the leaks from the installations themselves. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:34.000 Yeah, I think one of the reassurances we're always told is that nuclear power doesn't even-- 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:38.000 the emissions from nuclear power doesn't go above the background radiation. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000 One of the things that bothers me is that the background radiation is always going up 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:48.000 and they're allowed to adjust the standard by which they set their emissions to that background radiation. 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.000 And it's going up because of their own emissions. 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:56.000 So there's a little bit of an escalating loop that's going on, whereby everybody around nuclear plants 00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000 and all of us are getting more radiation as time goes on. 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.000 The type of radiation is crucial in its biological effects. 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:11.000 The industry has the tricks of comparing living in Denver or flying in an airplane 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:15.000 with breathing fallout in the nuclear industry. 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:24.000 And it's completely ignoring the well-established fact that the gamma rays that they're counting in Denver 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.000 or in airplanes have a low energy transfer to the tissues. 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.000 They go through so fast they don't react. 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:36.000 And at lower altitudes, they talk about less radiation exposure, 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:41.000 but actually at sea level you're getting tertiary and secondary cosmic rays, 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:46.000 which have more energy delivery in a toxic way to your tissues. 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:52.000 So actually Denver has less biologically effective radiation than sea level. 00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:00.000 And another trick they use to make it seem like radiation isn't necessarily harmful 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:08.000 is to show an alpha emitter and a detector and then put a sheet of typing paper in the path 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:13.000 and showing that it stops the alpha particles from passing through. 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:19.000 But if you inhale an alpha emitter, when that particle goes, 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:23.000 it's going to hit a cell, not a sheet of typing paper. 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:32.000 And the fact that it will stop in a sheet of paper means that it has a 100% delivery of its energy to the tissue. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:39.000 And it's the delivery of energy that causes the tissue damage, not exclusively. 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:47.000 When gamma rays pass through you, they give up a little of their energy in a scattering manner. 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:52.000 So they have a very low linear transfer of energy, 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:58.000 but they still do damage by a partial giving up of their energy. 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:02.000 So the low velocity is what really harms you. 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:06.000 And so if you inhale a particulate that's radioactive, 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000 even though it might not be that much radiation, 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.000 it's the fact that you're just getting all of it in one place that makes it so serious. 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:19.000 Yeah. The beta radiation from iodine and strontium and cesium, 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:25.000 basically all of it's going to be absorbed when a particle decomposes in your tissues. 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.000 It's not as locally intense as alpha particles, 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:35.000 but much more effective at tissue delivery than X-rays or gamma rays just passing through your body. 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.000 I see. And just for those of us who don't know, 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.000 could you just quickly summarize what alpha, beta and gamma mean in terms of radiation? 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:48.000 Alpha particles are actually an atomic nucleus. 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:54.000 And so it's a big fat particle that stops easily when it runs into a cell material. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.000 A beta particle is an electron, 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:03.000 which is much more able to pass through cells without being absorbed. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:08.000 It still is a particle of matter or of electricity. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:13.000 X-rays and gamma rays are photons, so they're analogous to light. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:20.000 And the certain frequencies will resonate more with the living substance. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:28.000 So the X-rays have a fairly intense interaction with living material compared to gamma rays. 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.000 Still, they can be equated. 00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:36.000 The amount of energy delivered to the tissue, linear energy transfer, LAT, 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:40.000 is how you compare the different types of radiation. 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.000 And so I suppose it's impossible to make this comparison, 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.000 but I'm going to ask you anyway because maybe there is a way. 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:50.000 If we have fallout from some accident like we're having from Japan, 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:56.000 how does that compare to going in for medical X-rays or dental X-rays? 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.000 Is there a comparison to be made? 00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:00.000 Oh, yeah. 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:03.000 The thyroid is damaged by all of them. 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:12.000 But if the cloud is very fresh, close to the factory, iodine has a half-life of eight days, 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:14.000 so it takes three months to disappear. 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.000 So if it's your thyroid you're worried about and if the cloud has taken a long time to get to you, 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:27.000 then it could be that the X-ray to your head and neck would be the worst. 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:31.000 But usually the fact that you breathe in or eat the particles, 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:37.000 it's going to mean that the fallout is worse, considerably worse, than just having a dental X-ray. 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:41.000 Now, I know there's a scientist named Dr. Christopher Busby, 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:49.000 and he's criticized the safety standards by which the international agencies grade how much radiation a person can take. 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.000 And I think he's basically talking about what you're talking about here, 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:58.000 which is that the standards that they use now take everything, all doses of radiation, 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:04.000 as if it's a whole body dose and it doesn't take into account, as if it's spread evenly through all your tissues. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:09.000 And he's saying that they don't take into account the fact that it's often quite localized 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:15.000 and therefore causes much greater damage because the energy is all focused on one part of the tissue. 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Yeah, the dental X-rays tend to cause cancer of the eyeball, the brain, and the thyroid. 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:29.000 The estrogenic effect will cause a series of dental X-rays to make a pregnant woman deliver 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:35.000 and a premature underdeveloped, underweight baby by the systemic estrogen effect. 00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:40.000 It does cancerize the things that are closest to the exposure. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:48.000 And the government's tendency has been to use whatever measure sounds the least threatening, 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:54.000 such as failing to make the distinction between the local dose and the total body dose. 00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:01.000 And they've done the same thing with interpreting the danger of the fallout from the atomic bombs in Japan, 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:08.000 where the bomb smoke went in a sort of a triangular pathway downwind from the explosion. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:18.000 They drew a circle around the center of the explosion and averaged out the people at a certain distance in any direction 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:28.000 and tended to make the people who were actually exposed to the fallout disappear by averaging them 360 degrees around the circle. 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:31.000 I see, thereby lowering the incidence of problems. 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:32.000 Yeah. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000 Well, Ray, I'm sad to say that we're out of time. 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:42.000 Maybe you could just, if you could, maybe it's not possible, to summarize quickly the things that people could do to mitigate radiation problems. 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:53.000 Yeah, eating seaweed, kelp, and if you have a bottle of iodine, you can paint them on your fingers and toes and soak up some of it for your skin. 00:40:53.000 --> 00:41:03.000 And all of this shouldn't be done until the cloud is actually here because excess iodine is toxic to your thyroid in itself. 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:12.000 But if there's an intense cloud passing over, then these external sources of iodine will protect your thyroid, but they won't protect the other tissues. 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.000 So keeping your thyroid function up is the ideal way to do it. 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000 I see. And that's done with coconut oil and -- 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000 Yeah, sugar, coconut oil, and when possible, a thyroid supplement. 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:27.000 Okay. Dr. Raymond Peat, thanks so much for being on tonight. 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:28.000 Okay, thank you. 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.000 We appreciate it, and we'll talk to you soon, I hope. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000 Okay, bye. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.000 Bye for now. And thanks for listening tonight. This has been Politics and Science. I'm John Barkhausen. 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:42.000 And that was Dr. Raymond Peat, and you can find out more about his work at his website, raypeat.com. 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.000 That's R-A-Y-P-E-A-T dot com. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.000 A lot of very interesting articles. 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:54.000 And let me just remind you that the fundraiser, although it should be over, is still going forward on slow mode. 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.000 We're at about $8,320, and we've got to get to $9,000. 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.000 So really appreciate all of you who have donated, and all of you who are about to donate. 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.000 We just have a little bit more to go, and we'll have our operating expenses for the entire year. 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:09.000 All donations are tax deductible. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 And how do you do it? 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.000 Well, you can go to WMRW.org and click on the pig to make a credit card or PayPal donation. 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:22.000 Or you can send your check to WMRW, PO Box 95, Warren, Vermont, 05674. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.000 That's PO Box 95, Warren, 05674. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.000 And this program and the following program present the viewpoints of its producers and participants 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.000 and don't reflect an official opinion of any other person or organization.