WEBVTT 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.000 Welcome to Politics and Science. 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:12.360 Politics and Science can be heard weekly on WMRW LP1 95.1 FM, airing on Wednesdays at 00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:16.200 5 p.m. and Sundays at noon. 00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:23.920 And in the Bellows Falls area, it can be heard on WULL LP Bellows Falls at 101.1 FM, airing 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:30.560 from 3 to 4 p.m. on Sundays and from 9 to 10 a.m. on Mondays. 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:34.340 Politics and Science presents the viewpoints of its participants and does not necessarily 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:38.920 reflect the viewpoints of any other person or organization. 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:50.040 All right, I'm back on the air and I believe I have Dr. Raymond Peat here. 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:55.280 This is Politics and Science on the 30th of March, 2011. 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.200 And Dr. Ray Peat, can you hear me? 00:00:58.200 --> 00:00:59.200 Yes. 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:00.200 Oh, good. 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:01.200 Is there an echo? 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.200 No. 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:03.200 Okay, great. 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.200 Tell me if it starts happening. 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.200 Okay. 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:15.000 Dr. Ray Peat is a physiologist and an endocrinologist from Eugene, Oregon, and has a website with 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:22.720 a lot of excellent articles on it on a variety of subjects, but mostly about physiology. 00:01:22.720 --> 00:01:25.680 And that can be found at raypeat.com. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.880 That's R-A-Y-P-E-A-T dot com. 00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:34.240 Ray, thanks so much for coming on Politics and Science again. 00:01:34.240 --> 00:01:42.440 Well, we've talked about radiation before, but I think it was two years ago we had two 00:01:42.440 --> 00:01:43.440 shows in a row. 00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:46.040 I didn't know it had been that long. 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:50.480 Yeah, it actually has. 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:56.360 But in light of the Fukushima power plant, which is in process of melting down as we 00:01:56.360 --> 00:02:02.920 speak, and probably will be over the next, I don't know how long, they've been unable 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:06.280 to get control of it, so it'll probably keep going on for a few months. 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:13.040 And there is quite a bit of radiation being given off from that plant, although the exact 00:02:13.040 --> 00:02:18.040 amounts are subject to debate, I understand. 00:02:18.040 --> 00:02:22.400 But in light of that happening, I thought we should revisit radiation and do it in the 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:29.520 context of your recent very excellent newsletter, which was entitled "Radiation and Growth," 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:33.360 came out this January 2001. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:39.800 And if people go to Dr. Peat's website, they can read a lot of those newsletters online. 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:45.160 And also, I believe you can sign up for the newsletter and get it hot off the press. 00:02:45.160 --> 00:02:48.640 You're publishing that six times a year now, is that right, Dr. Peat? 00:02:48.640 --> 00:02:49.640 Yeah. 00:02:49.640 --> 00:02:56.040 The reason I wrote that newsletter last fall was two things. 00:02:56.040 --> 00:03:04.000 The transportation safety people, I think the echo is coming back. 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:16.680 The TSA instruments that irradiate people had got my interest up again in radiation. 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:25.160 And then I saw that there were people selling radioactive rocks as therapeutic things, for 00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:30.840 example, to wear around your neck to cure breast cancer and so on. 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:39.880 And I saw that T.D. Lucky, who is now at least 90 years old, was interviewed by one of these 00:03:39.880 --> 00:03:47.000 rock ladies talking about his radioactive rock that he liked to rub. 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:56.400 And I saw that since his history for 50 years has been serving the nuclear industry to tell 00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:05.440 people that radiation is good for you rather than harmful, I realized that with Obama and 00:04:05.440 --> 00:04:15.880 his nuclear industry support, that T.D. Lucky and the radioactive rocks were just part of 00:04:15.880 --> 00:04:24.400 a new wave of promotion of radiation security ideas. 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:26.440 I see. 00:04:26.440 --> 00:04:34.440 And T.D. Lucky, I think in this recent newsletter you talked a little bit about how he worked. 00:04:34.440 --> 00:04:35.440 It was interesting. 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:41.280 So he was a spokesman for the Lawrence Livermore Laboratories? 00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:50.680 I heard about his talks when I was talking about Ernest Sternglass and his low-level 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.680 radiation book, for example. 00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:01.520 I talked to people who worked in the nuclear industry, and they said, "Oh, that's rubbish. 00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:03.400 No one should read that stuff. 00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:05.520 It's all phony." 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:16.880 And I found out that they had been given weekly seminars at the nuclear factory to debunk people 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:26.200 like Goffman, Pauling, and Sternglass, and T.D. Lucky was one of the regulars at those 00:05:26.200 --> 00:05:35.920 industry seminars to educate the workers that those people were such lunatics and phonies 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:43.120 that no respectable person should even look at their publications. 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:52.880 And I looked up some of the references that T.D. Lucky cites, and one of them was published 00:05:52.880 --> 00:06:02.760 in a right-wing crazy medical journal, and others are published in nuclear-supported 00:06:02.760 --> 00:06:13.520 radiation protection journals, basically giving the nuclear industry position and nothing 00:06:13.520 --> 00:06:16.720 from the real biologists. 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:22.480 So when people are listening to this information that we're getting from the mainstream press 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:27.440 and from other sources, like even this radio station, how are they supposed to ascertain 00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:30.520 who's got the accurate data and who doesn't? 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:40.760 Well, if you just read the references cited by T.D. Lucky or any of these people who are 00:06:40.760 --> 00:06:49.640 propagandizing against Pauling and Goffman and Sternglass, and then if you read Sternglass's 00:06:49.640 --> 00:06:55.960 books, for example, you can judge for yourself. 00:06:55.960 --> 00:07:05.120 Sternglass pried some information out of the agencies, although much of it was just completely 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.520 destroyed and not made available. 00:07:08.520 --> 00:07:20.800 But the information that he got was very public, very simple, factual, population information, 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.720 mortality figures and so on. 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:38.280 Everything public and very sound and absolutely in a different world from the political fantasies 00:07:38.280 --> 00:07:43.320 that the Lucky people fight. 00:07:43.320 --> 00:07:48.080 And this talking about Ernest Sternglass brings us back to some of the history that you cover 00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:54.840 in this newsletter, again entitled "Radiation and Growth, Incoherent Imprinting from Inappropriate 00:07:54.840 --> 00:07:55.840 Radiation." 00:07:55.840 --> 00:08:03.840 And I guess Ernest Sternglass worked with Linus Pauling, who was famous as a Nobel Prize winner, 00:08:03.840 --> 00:08:07.880 and they were both working to stop atomic testing. 00:08:07.880 --> 00:08:14.920 Can you explain a little bit why they got involved with that issue? 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:28.040 In the '50s, Linus Pauling was talking about the genetic effects of even one alpha-emitting 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:38.880 atom ingested into the body, he was saying that alpha particle delivers all of its energy 00:08:38.880 --> 00:08:42.760 to a very small area. 00:08:42.760 --> 00:08:49.200 So if it hits a nucleus, it'll either kill the nucleus or mutate it. 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:57.360 And he said that every mutation ultimately can be considered as a fatality, even if it 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:06.480 comes 100 generations later, because it's not introducing anything of value, but simply 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:09.880 destroying some information. 00:09:09.880 --> 00:09:19.440 But he was emphasizing the mutation damage done by any radioactive isotope, natural or 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:20.440 artificial. 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:32.560 And so he said that any addition made to the background radiation by the isotopes is going 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:34.160 to cause cancer. 00:09:34.160 --> 00:09:43.200 But the terrible thing is that the fallout from nuclear reactors and atomic bombs gets 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:51.480 into the atmosphere as particles, which when ingested, if they stay in the body, they'll 00:09:51.480 --> 00:10:01.680 eventually emit a particle which will either kill a cell or probably cause a mutation. 00:10:01.680 --> 00:10:13.320 And so he was already making that point between the absolute difference between radiation 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:21.620 that you get while walking past a granite table or a granite bank or something. 00:10:21.620 --> 00:10:26.040 That passes through, delivers very little energy. 00:10:26.040 --> 00:10:35.400 But any single alpha emitting isotope that you swallow is going to deliver all of its 00:10:35.400 --> 00:10:40.960 energy as that alpha particle is absorbed by the cells. 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:51.480 So it's like an absolute difference, not just the idea of the sievert or the REM was 00:10:51.480 --> 00:11:02.920 used, they spoke of the renkin or the energy of the radiation coming out of a source, the 00:11:02.920 --> 00:11:16.320 rad as the absorbed dose of radiation and the REM or the equivalent in a person. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:24.800 And the sievert is the new unit referring to that effective dose. 00:11:24.800 --> 00:11:36.880 But that effective dose, unfortunately, is part of the obscuring the actual dangers because 00:11:36.880 --> 00:11:43.720 they define effectiveness as a killing or a mutation. 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:54.080 And that's exactly what Linus Pauling was talking about in which any single isotope 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:59.480 particle would be enough to cause cancer. 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:09.960 But the people who are defending the industry are using this sievert unit or the radiation 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:23.320 effectiveness biologically against the Pauling, Goffman, Sternglass people because effectiveness 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:28.440 they are defining only in terms of mutation or killing. 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:37.200 And so their journals are full of showing how harmless particular types of radiation 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:49.600 are if you don't kill the cell instantly and don't mutate it so that you can find a broken 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:57.400 chromosome or a piece of changed DNA right after the exposure, then you have done no 00:12:57.400 --> 00:12:58.400 harm. 00:12:58.400 --> 00:13:08.560 And that's where the situation is totally being falsified by the industry people. 00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:22.080 And someone to check for the newer view that even it goes far beyond what Pauling and Goffman 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.040 recognized the mutagenic effects of radiation. 00:13:26.040 --> 00:13:35.800 And Sternglass was he was forced to recognize that there is something far beyond mutation 00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:45.640 and killing effective radiation when he saw the many changes that were happening around 00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:57.960 Three Mile Island where he got his large numbers were in stillbirths, thyroid deficient babies 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:09.280 born or not born because of miscarriage by the mothers after they had ingested the isotopes. 00:14:09.280 --> 00:14:19.960 Large numbers of underweight babies, miscarriages and thyroid deficient babies were produced. 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:29.360 And then when he followed up all across the country, he looked that the miscarriages and 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:38.080 thyroid deficiencies followed just in the number of months that you would expect from 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:43.000 the damage to the developing embryo. 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:47.120 Same with the production of leukemia. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:51.560 It was intrauterine exposure that was producing leukemia. 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:54.320 But then he looked at all across the country. 00:14:54.320 --> 00:15:02.240 He looked at the figures 18 years later in the scholastic aptitude scores. 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:11.360 And the first response to his pointing out the falling scores, which happened in Utah, 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:18.600 there was a tremendous, I think it was a 26 percent decrease in scores 18 years after 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.720 the heaviest exposure to bomb tests. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:31.120 And it right across the country, the scores decreased in proportion to the radiation exposure 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:34.960 of the mothers 18 years earlier. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:42.360 The first reaction was that, well, more poor kids are now taking the test. 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:51.760 And he showed that that was wrong, that in fact there were lots more poor kids who were 00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:54.000 scoring lower taking the test. 00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:05.760 But he looked at the high range, the very highest scoring students had decreased more. 00:16:05.760 --> 00:16:14.240 They were the most sensitive to the destructive effects of prenatal radiation exposure. 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:25.280 And he didn't, one of his co-authors suggested that in vitro experiments with so-called cell 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:39.560 membranes showed that the free radical production propagated in these membrane lipids and would 00:16:39.560 --> 00:16:45.760 have an extreme sensitizing effect to a very small amount of radiation. 00:16:45.760 --> 00:16:54.880 But that wasn't, that was in vitro, somewhat hypothetical membrane thinking. 00:16:54.880 --> 00:17:03.920 But Sternglass showed that some mechanism must be causing this much higher sensitivity 00:17:03.920 --> 00:17:07.760 than simply mutating or killing cells. 00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:20.400 Even the industry people pretty much have to accept that the women who were exposed 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:30.160 while pregnant to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, their children had smaller brains and 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:35.400 were mentally retarded in proportion to the amount of radiation they got. 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:43.760 And that was blamed on just the killing of brain cells. 00:17:43.760 --> 00:17:55.920 But just recently a study in Seattle of women getting dental x-rays, they would shield their 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:07.600 whole body, but if they got a whole set of dental x-rays, the women, pregnant women delivered 00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:15.360 underweight babies from the general physiological effect. 00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:23.120 Something happened when their head was irradiated by the dentist that was transmitted to their 00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:30.120 whole body that made the pregnancy less successful. 00:18:30.120 --> 00:18:41.520 So the Sternglass effects are supported by this kind of study that shows that irradiation 00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:47.640 of any part of the body will affect the success of the pregnancy. 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:54.480 Even when the baby is born underweight, the brain is also underweight, sometimes worse 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:58.360 than the general underweight of the body. 00:18:58.360 --> 00:19:09.320 So there's something happening, lingering for months after the exposure in these actual 00:19:09.320 --> 00:19:13.440 experiences in people. 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:21.320 Fifty years after the people were exposed to the bomb in Japan and twenty years after 00:19:21.320 --> 00:19:30.360 the Chernobyl workers were exposed, samples of their blood have been tested with removing 00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:36.520 the cells from their serum. 00:19:36.520 --> 00:19:45.680 Their serum was then added to healthy cells and it was able to cause mutations or chromosome 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:52.960 breaks even twenty to fifty years after they had been exposed. 00:19:52.960 --> 00:20:03.840 So the dental x-rays affected the whole subsequent pregnancy, but here people were demonstrating 00:20:03.840 --> 00:20:12.160 lingering toxic effects circulating in their body fluids decades after exposure. 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:18.000 If I could just play devil's advocate here, I would think that if somebody had survived 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:28.280 for twenty years with those toxic effects from radiation in their blood and were still 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:34.760 alive then I would think that the body was coping with it. 00:20:34.760 --> 00:20:47.120 Well the exposed people had worse health and a higher rate of death from all causes, infectious 00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:55.880 diseases, heart disease, cancer, everything reduced the population faster, but the healthiest 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:05.280 of them who survived a long time still were radically injured. 00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:20.000 And the fact that it can linger through a person's long lifespan, studies have been 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:27.360 done many times in animals and a few times in humans showing that for example radiation 00:21:27.360 --> 00:21:37.640 to a man's head will be associated with birth defects in his offspring. 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:45.200 Something is transmitted through his body the same way it is through a woman's body, 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:54.880 which is sperm destabilizes them genetically so that the resulting offspring is genetically 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.240 disrupted. 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:04.560 And the animal studies show that that sort of effect can go on generation after generation 00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:17.320 often getting worse each generation once the disorganization of the genome begins it can 00:22:17.320 --> 00:22:23.160 ultimately lead to the complete ending of the line, but sometimes it doesn't happen 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.880 for several generations. 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:35.280 Do you know, speaking of Japan, previous nuclear horrors which are the atomic bombings of Hiroshima 00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:38.680 and Nagasaki, do you know how that was studied? 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:44.560 I had heard that official health studies of the effects of the bombing didn't start until 00:22:44.560 --> 00:22:49.280 three years after the bombing, but perhaps I have that wrong. 00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:52.260 Do you know anything about that Ray? 00:22:52.260 --> 00:23:00.000 There were lots of effects, I don't remember exactly when they started, but both Goffman 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:06.580 and Sternglass have reviewed those so it's worth looking at both of them. 00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:15.440 One of the tricks the government used was to draw a circle around the bomb and then 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:25.740 take people who were within a given radius of the bomb explosion and analyze their health, 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:34.140 but the bomb explosion produced a cloud that went off in a triangular path according to 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:38.060 the movement of the wind and the air. 00:23:38.060 --> 00:23:49.620 And so the inclusion of everyone within a radius 360 degrees around was just a very 00:23:49.620 --> 00:23:58.580 obvious trick to dilute the actual effect of the people who got the fallout in a concentrated 00:23:58.580 --> 00:23:59.580 form. 00:23:59.580 --> 00:24:05.940 I see, instead of comparing the downwinders to a control group of no exposure? 00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:17.420 Yeah, it was similar to adding Canadians and Argentines to the Hiroshima population to 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:24.620 include people in the radius who didn't get any radiation exposure at all. 00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:30.060 And so these, going back to Ernest Sternglass and Linus Pauling who were campaigning to 00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:37.580 stop above ground testing of atomic weapons, how were his studies and Linus Pauling's studies 00:24:37.580 --> 00:24:39.080 received? 00:24:39.080 --> 00:24:52.460 Well, I was one of the people talking about the difference between John Goffman and Linus 00:24:52.460 --> 00:24:53.460 Pauling. 00:24:53.460 --> 00:25:01.100 John Goffman was saying Linus Pauling was a neurotic and a quack, and I was saying that 00:25:01.100 --> 00:25:05.860 John Goffman is either insane or a liar. 00:25:05.860 --> 00:25:06.860 At the time. 00:25:06.860 --> 00:25:07.860 Or just stupid. 00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:17.940 And 20 years later, he suddenly had an insight and said that was the stupidest thing he could 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:26.620 have ever done, but he was doing it regularly as his profession for the government to campaign 00:25:26.620 --> 00:25:30.820 against Linus Pauling and the anti-bomb people. 00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:39.140 Yes, he was one of the main spokesmen for the Atomic Energy Agency, wasn't he? 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:40.300 Yeah. 00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:48.740 And his old stupid arguments are still, you can still find them anywhere on the internet 00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:55.500 and in the professional journals of radiation protection. 00:25:55.500 --> 00:26:01.180 The industry is never going to give up as long as they're subsidized and supported by 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:04.580 the government. 00:26:04.580 --> 00:26:08.060 And any insight into how he happened to change his mind? 00:26:08.060 --> 00:26:10.420 It was a sort of an epiphany, wasn't it? 00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:23.420 Yeah, he said he was in the middle of a talk and said, this is a crazy thing to be saying. 00:26:23.420 --> 00:26:34.540 Until we know that we're destroying all future generations of humanity, we should go on testing 00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:38.460 until we're sure. 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:49.260 And he later said that he and hundreds of other people in similar positions should be 00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:52.100 or could be tried for war crimes. 00:26:52.100 --> 00:26:59.980 Yeah, and there was a quote recently that was in that letter by Chris Busby, Professor 00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:01.940 Chris Busby, who just wrote a reply. 00:27:01.940 --> 00:27:06.460 If you search his name, you'll probably find his article on the internet. 00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:12.140 Just wrote a reply to the atomic industry experts who are denying that there's any danger 00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:15.340 from the Fukushima plant. 00:27:15.340 --> 00:27:24.460 And he's quoted Goffman as saying that the nuclear industry is waging war on humanity, 00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:27.140 which is that's quite a turnaround. 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:33.420 Yeah, and it wasn't really a total turnaround. 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:37.340 He still loved atomic bombs. 00:27:37.340 --> 00:27:51.180 And he still, Linus Pauling in 1959 said that the figures for a low cancer rate in Denver 00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:58.220 must be wrong because cosmic rays give people a lot of radiation. 00:27:58.220 --> 00:28:05.180 The nuclear industry likes that argument that if you live in Denver or fly in an airplane 00:28:05.180 --> 00:28:14.940 at high altitude, you're getting many times more radiation than breathing fallout from 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:17.340 the nuclear plants. 00:28:17.340 --> 00:28:31.180 And because of several, I guess, both personal and scientific reasons, both Pauling and Goffman 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:40.420 never gave up that basic perception that would tend to validate those propaganda lines of 00:28:40.420 --> 00:28:42.580 the nuclear industry. 00:28:42.580 --> 00:28:50.820 Just before he died, Goffman was still saying that you get more radiation by living in Denver 00:28:50.820 --> 00:28:52.700 than at sea level. 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:59.180 It's true that a certain kind of radiation is more intense, but the cosmic rays that 00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:08.500 they're talking about are relatively harmless compared to if you are at sea level where 00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:16.580 you get fewer of the primary cosmic rays, you get secondary and tertiary cosmic rays 00:29:16.580 --> 00:29:23.300 that deliver their energy into your body at a much higher rate. 00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:33.060 So one of the most popular arguments of the industry is that anyone who flies or lives 00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:41.220 in the mountains has nothing to complain about getting some isotopes from the industry. 00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:57.380 But it's a total deception and it's sort of sad that Goffman and Pauling never investigated 00:29:57.380 --> 00:30:02.060 the issue enough to be able to knock that one down too. 00:30:02.060 --> 00:30:04.540 Well, can you knock it down for us, Ray? 00:30:04.540 --> 00:30:08.940 Because I don't think you've quite explained why the cosmic radiation isn't the same as 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:10.900 ionizing radiation. 00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:18.180 Well, the idea of linear energy transfer is the essential thing. 00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:26.700 And the higher the velocity of a particle, the less likely it is to stop in your tissue. 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:34.580 And if you look at a track of a particle going through a target or a piece of tissue, when 00:30:34.580 --> 00:30:45.900 you find one that is losing enough energy that it's coming to rest, the track where 00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:55.500 it enters the tissue is only a pale gray showing not much interaction with the substance. 00:30:55.500 --> 00:31:02.180 And as it slows down, it's like the point of a pencil. 00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:13.700 The chemical reactions become saturating and black, exposing the film or whatever it's 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:15.980 stopping in. 00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:27.100 The ionization becomes extremely intense at the very last micron or two of movement 00:31:27.100 --> 00:31:29.140 of the particle through the tissue. 00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:34.260 It delivers all of its remaining energy right in that cell. 00:31:34.260 --> 00:31:42.100 But if it passes through you at a high velocity, very little radiation is lost. 00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:50.660 The type of radiation that we're exposed to when the cosmic ray primary goes through 00:31:50.660 --> 00:32:00.300 us, it's the decelerating type of radiation where the particle is weakly deflected by 00:32:00.300 --> 00:32:05.820 passing through near the atoms in our body. 00:32:05.820 --> 00:32:13.900 But the energy delivered is very small per unit of tissue. 00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:28.620 And experiments have been done showing that their secondary and tertiary particles mostly 00:32:28.620 --> 00:32:32.500 are ending right near the surface of the Earth. 00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:39.780 And so those are the ones which are doing most of the biological damage from cosmic 00:32:39.780 --> 00:32:40.780 rays. 00:32:40.780 --> 00:32:47.380 So as far as the cosmic rays are concerned, it's worse to live at sea level. 00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:54.940 But the industry argues the reverse, that high altitude is where you're getting the 00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:55.980 worst radiation. 00:32:55.980 --> 00:33:03.780 So they're turning the evidence exactly upside down to support their interests. 00:33:03.780 --> 00:33:11.260 They do the same thing with the idea of radon gas. 00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:20.660 They say people who are exposed to radon in their homes have less lung cancer than people 00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:21.660 who aren't exposed. 00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:25.540 Therefore, radiation is good for you. 00:33:25.540 --> 00:33:34.140 But the lung is the place that's least exposed to radon. 00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:36.660 It dissolves in fat tissue. 00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:46.580 And the brain being mostly fat is where your subcutaneous fat and brain get most of the 00:33:46.580 --> 00:33:49.180 radon exposure. 00:33:49.180 --> 00:33:57.380 And in fact, the figures show that dementia corresponds very closely to radon exposure. 00:33:57.380 --> 00:34:01.260 So you're saying the radon actually ends up in your brain if you're exposed to it. 00:34:01.260 --> 00:34:04.900 And over time, that might cause Alzheimer's or dementia? 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:05.900 Yeah. 00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:13.260 But the industry says since you breathe it, you would expect lung cancer. 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:20.420 But no, you wouldn't expect it because it goes through your lung in a fraction of a 00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:21.420 second. 00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:25.820 And does that coincide with radon maps of the United States? 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:28.140 Yeah, dementia does. 00:34:28.140 --> 00:34:33.100 But lung cancer doesn't because it's a complete irrelevancy. 00:34:33.100 --> 00:34:35.100 I see. 00:34:35.100 --> 00:34:39.860 So it's a little bit of a red herring they're raising there again. 00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:41.860 Yeah. 00:34:41.860 --> 00:34:51.220 Some of the other experiments with cosmic rays that make the linear energy transfer 00:34:51.220 --> 00:35:04.660 very clear, putting about a half an inch of lead as a roof over animals will cause them 00:35:04.660 --> 00:35:13.700 to miscarry or become sterile or develop cancer and other diseases at a very high rate. 00:35:13.700 --> 00:35:22.980 And that's because of the slowing effect of the lead on the cosmic rays, increasing the 00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:28.800 probability of them coming to rest in your cells. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:36.820 So a slow cosmic rays is somewhat equivalent possibly to inhaling one of the lower, less 00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:38.060 harmful emitters. 00:35:38.060 --> 00:35:42.780 But once you inhale it and it lodges in a certain part of your tissue, all that energy 00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:47.220 is delivered right to one part of your tissue. 00:35:47.220 --> 00:35:48.220 Yeah. 00:35:48.220 --> 00:35:49.220 Yeah. 00:35:49.220 --> 00:35:55.780 It's the coming to rest in your tissue that delivers the deadly energy. 00:35:55.780 --> 00:36:11.020 And besides that killing mutating energy, the decelerating energy that's less harmful 00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:21.380 immediately, it still can have long range effects by giving misleading signals to the 00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:29.300 developing cell interactive systems. 00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:39.380 One of the basic tricks behind this idea that radiation is only dangerous if it kills or 00:36:39.380 --> 00:36:46.500 mutates is the research done with bacteria. 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:53.500 And they extrapolate from bacteria to human beings. 00:36:53.500 --> 00:37:00.140 To do that successfully, they just have to leave out the later lifetime effects of the 00:37:00.140 --> 00:37:05.860 radiation on that individual and then the subsequent generations effects. 00:37:05.860 --> 00:37:08.980 I see. 00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:13.300 They're using radiation to model what might happen to humans or other mammals. 00:37:13.300 --> 00:37:15.300 I mean, based on bacteria. 00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:16.300 Right. 00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:20.180 And they only studied over a short period of time. 00:37:20.180 --> 00:37:21.180 Yeah. 00:37:21.180 --> 00:37:25.100 Just the instantaneous mutating effects. 00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:26.100 Oh, I see. 00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:35.820 What they're looking at where Carmel Mothersill and her collaborators have demonstrated the 00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:39.540 bystander effect. 00:37:39.540 --> 00:37:47.380 That it is transmitted through the body fluids when a man's head is irradiated or a woman's 00:37:47.380 --> 00:37:51.900 head and the baby is affected. 00:37:51.900 --> 00:38:00.220 She and her group have shown that you can irradiate cells enough to cause death and 00:38:00.220 --> 00:38:05.620 mutations and so on in a culture dish. 00:38:05.620 --> 00:38:13.540 And then you can take the fluid from those cells and add it to fresh cells and you get 00:38:13.540 --> 00:38:20.740 those cells behave just as if they had been irradiated to analogous to the effect of the 00:38:20.740 --> 00:38:28.460 serum from the Chernobyl workers causing chromosome breaks in cells from healthy people. 00:38:28.460 --> 00:38:32.100 So there's some sort of instability that's set up. 00:38:32.100 --> 00:38:33.100 Yeah. 00:38:33.100 --> 00:38:40.140 And one of the transmitters that they have identified, there are probably a lot of things 00:38:40.140 --> 00:38:45.180 that cells emit when they're stressed. 00:38:45.180 --> 00:38:49.780 One that they've tested is simply serotonin. 00:38:49.780 --> 00:39:02.660 And they found that serotonin level of 25 nanograms per milliliter produced by the radiation 00:39:02.660 --> 00:39:11.700 damaged cells was enough to transmit genomic instability to new cells. 00:39:11.700 --> 00:39:13.980 And that's without any extra radiation added. 00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:14.980 That's just the cell. 00:39:14.980 --> 00:39:15.980 Yeah. 00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:20.340 That's just the indirect effect transmitted through the fluids. 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:30.500 And if they irradiated fish in water and then put new fish in the water, they suffered similar 00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:38.860 effects transmitted from the secretions into the water of the injured fish causing similar 00:39:38.860 --> 00:39:42.820 injury in the unexposed fish. 00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:44.400 That's very interesting. 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:45.820 That's pretty recent research. 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:50.740 I'm looking at the references in your paper and that's 2007. 00:39:50.740 --> 00:39:54.620 So is this fairly new evidence that's coming to light? 00:39:54.620 --> 00:40:02.700 Yeah, these few people are, if you look up bystander effect, you'll find hundreds of 00:40:02.700 --> 00:40:05.220 articles over the last 10 years. 00:40:05.220 --> 00:40:14.180 But I was running into it in Russian research in the 1960s already. 00:40:14.180 --> 00:40:21.460 They found that, in fact, I incorporated some of those ideas into my thesis work. 00:40:21.460 --> 00:40:29.260 They showed that first they would irradiate an animal's head and showed that it affected 00:40:29.260 --> 00:40:32.180 the pregnancy later. 00:40:32.180 --> 00:40:40.060 But then they found that irradiating any part of the animal had the same estrogenic effect 00:40:40.060 --> 00:40:50.700 and they used the term "stressin" as a name for the unidentified substance secreted by 00:40:50.700 --> 00:40:59.060 the injured tissue that would then transmit a genetic instability to the rest of the organism 00:40:59.060 --> 00:41:03.620 and the offspring. 00:41:03.620 --> 00:41:12.620 The so-called stressins are now gradually being identified as the cytokines and serotonin 00:41:12.620 --> 00:41:17.220 and other things that injured cells produce. 00:41:17.220 --> 00:41:20.060 It's interesting you brought up Russian research. 00:41:20.060 --> 00:41:26.300 One of the things I wanted to talk about today was the different interpretations of what 00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:31.780 happened to Chernobyl, at Chernobyl, with the meltdown there of the reactor back in 00:41:31.780 --> 00:41:32.780 1986. 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:39.260 We're just about at the 25th year anniversary of that event. 00:41:39.260 --> 00:41:46.980 And the World Health Organization, in association with the International Atomic Energy Agency, 00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:56.380 and UNSCEAR, which is a committee of the UN, has issued several studies about Chernobyl. 00:41:56.380 --> 00:42:01.900 And their assessment of the damage done by Chernobyl radically differs with a Russian 00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:05.980 study that just came out a year ago. 00:42:05.980 --> 00:42:13.460 I think they said immediately, UNSCEAR basically said that the only people who were harmed 00:42:13.460 --> 00:42:18.460 were the immediate workers, and then there's been some thyroid problems that could have 00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:25.020 been alleviated if the government had acted quickly and issued potassium iodine for those 00:42:25.020 --> 00:42:28.260 children who were exposed. 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:34.300 The Russian study, which I have the book in front of me, is quite amazingly thorough-looking, 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:43.380 and it's taken them many years to put together, has said that over a million people have died 00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:47.140 with many more to come. 00:42:47.140 --> 00:42:55.340 The Western journals reviewing, I think it was 300 basically Western articles published 00:42:55.340 --> 00:43:05.900 in languages that Americans could read, concluded that 28 people died as a result of Chernobyl, 00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:14.940 or maybe as many as 60 or 70 died from cleaning up Chernobyl. 00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:23.900 This group that wrote the book looked at, I think it was 5,000 studies, and concluded 00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:26.820 that a million people were killed. 00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:33.180 Yeah, and it's not over yet, because that pollution is still on the ground. 00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:42.140 It's the sort of difference that I've always seen that has led me to read foreign science, 00:43:42.140 --> 00:43:44.980 by preference to American. 00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:47.700 I started running into it. 00:43:47.700 --> 00:43:56.060 I think I mentioned previously the book by Carl Lindgren called Cold War in Biology. 00:43:56.060 --> 00:44:07.260 He documented the firings of college professors and even high school teachers who questioned 00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:15.380 the neo-Darwin approach to biology. 00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:27.260 I was aware that you couldn't trust American genetics and biology professors since that 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:32.740 academic cleansing process had been done in the late 1940s. 00:44:32.740 --> 00:44:39.220 Yeah, it sounds like science, especially, well maybe in every country, it's a political 00:44:39.220 --> 00:44:45.780 occupation because I'm speculating that people's jobs depend on taking certain points of view 00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:51.060 and holding them dear and not deviating from them, such as you were talking about genetic 00:44:51.060 --> 00:44:52.060 dogma. 00:44:52.060 --> 00:45:00.460 That's the majority view or the consensus in this country is not necessarily agree with 00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:02.460 other people's theories. 00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:13.860 Yeah, that's the idea of having a consensus of scientists and of peer-reviewed journals 00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:14.860 and so on. 00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:22.300 I see it as exactly the same as people who form their political views by taking a consensus 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:26.980 of what the network newscasters are saying. 00:45:26.980 --> 00:45:30.540 That's really how it works. 00:45:30.540 --> 00:45:38.780 It does form the political opinions of most Americans to watch the news and listen to 00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:42.220 their network radios. 00:45:42.220 --> 00:45:47.860 Today, speaking of the news, there was on Democracy Now, which is actually coming up 00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:55.380 in about 10 minutes, people who listen to that will hear George Monbiot, who's an English 00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:01.820 environmentalist and a writer who writes in The Guardian, debating Helen Caldicott over 00:46:01.820 --> 00:46:02.820 nuclear power. 00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:10.460 George Monbiot has witnessed the events at Fukushima through the news, as we all have 00:46:10.460 --> 00:46:17.140 so far, and he wrote an article saying that those events have actually convinced him that 00:46:17.140 --> 00:46:23.740 nuclear power is the answer because he said that we've had a terrible accident there and 00:46:23.740 --> 00:46:26.540 yet hardly anybody is hurt. 00:46:26.540 --> 00:46:38.860 He basically based that assumption he's making on the UNSEER and the IAEA UN health reports 00:46:38.860 --> 00:46:45.940 of what happened to the people of Chernobyl, where he said only 43 deaths resulted. 00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:50.940 Helen Caldicott thought that was an outrageous lie and an insult to the people who actually 00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:57.180 did die in Chernobyl, and he accused her of being a conspiracy theorist because, of course, 00:46:57.180 --> 00:47:07.220 an organization as prestigious as the UN Committee on Radiation wouldn't fabricate anything. 00:47:07.220 --> 00:47:10.420 Can you give us your take on that, Ray? 00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:25.740 Well, the UN is really primarily the instrument of the imperialist countries, and the nuclear 00:47:25.740 --> 00:47:35.540 industry wouldn't exist without the political support of the states, which represent corporate 00:47:35.540 --> 00:47:44.380 interests and the whole system works together. 00:47:44.380 --> 00:47:56.820 The public is taxed to finance the nuclear industry, and the state and the corporations 00:47:56.820 --> 00:48:08.180 support the universities and the broadcast media, so science has to, the same way as 00:48:08.180 --> 00:48:19.740 the who gets invaded, it isn't a matter of who is doing something objectively, it's who 00:48:19.740 --> 00:48:24.060 is hurting whose interest. 00:48:24.060 --> 00:48:31.340 Helen Caldicott is threatening to hurt the interests of the nuclear industry, and so 00:48:31.340 --> 00:48:36.820 the whole system has to exclude people like that. 00:48:36.820 --> 00:48:43.180 You said that Linus Pauling had his passport revoked for taking stands against the development 00:48:43.180 --> 00:48:46.220 of nuclear weapons and above-ground testing. 00:48:46.220 --> 00:48:58.340 Yeah, and professors, even when I was in graduate school in biology, when he had his passport 00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:10.060 revoked, the faculty, even at Caltech, were basically shunning him, and that I think motivated 00:49:10.060 --> 00:49:23.740 him to leave there under pressure, and even as recently as 1970, in the academic world, 00:49:23.740 --> 00:49:34.060 he was considered a quack and sort of an outcast, just because of his radiation peace position. 00:49:34.060 --> 00:49:35.500 Right. 00:49:35.500 --> 00:49:42.900 We're almost out of time, we have about eight minutes left, maximum, and I was looking at 00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:48.500 the Chernobyl book, it's called Chernobyl, Consequences of the Catastrophe for People 00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:56.620 in the Environment, by Alexei Yablokov, Vasily Nesterovich, and Alexei Nesterovich, and it's 00:49:56.620 --> 00:50:04.820 edited by Janet Sherman, who's an American doctor, and published by the Annals of the 00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:09.940 New York Academy of Sciences, and in it, it has some very interesting statistics about 00:50:09.940 --> 00:50:20.500 disease in the United States, and linking that to fallout, and it shows a huge, from 00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:26.380 looking at the incidence of thyroid cancer in children, a huge incidence starting in 00:50:26.380 --> 00:50:37.940 1935, the thyroid cancer incidence quadruples, and I know we're told always that the cancer 00:50:37.940 --> 00:50:41.900 rate is going down, but it's things like that that make me doubt that. 00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:52.620 Yeah, and Chris Busby's article mentioned his research, showing that just a small increase 00:50:52.620 --> 00:51:05.620 above background radiation was enough to cause something like a 20 to 90% increase in leukemia, 00:51:05.620 --> 00:51:16.980 if it was prenatal exposure, and when people say, "Oh, it's only 50% added to background 00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:27.980 radiation," as if that's nothing, an alternative point of view would be, "Well, let's see your 00:51:27.980 --> 00:51:35.540 evidence that background radiation is so safe, can you prove that it isn't killing 100 million 00:51:35.540 --> 00:51:45.100 people every year, because everyone is exposed to it, and it's known that that kind of radiation 00:51:45.100 --> 00:51:51.420 causes all kinds of disease, including infectious disease, susceptibility, heart disease, brain 00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:55.420 disease, and so on." 00:51:55.420 --> 00:52:05.460 The people selling mammograms and other x-ray treatments or tests use that sort of comparison 00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:14.580 to background, but when you take your focus away from what they're specifically talking 00:52:14.580 --> 00:52:28.020 about, some Swedes did a big study about 10 years ago on the population who had been given 00:52:28.020 --> 00:52:34.940 mammograms, that they had noticed that the cancer mortality didn't decrease in Sweden, 00:52:34.940 --> 00:52:42.620 although most of the women were getting mammograms, and so they compared the ones who had had 00:52:42.620 --> 00:52:54.700 them and the ones who hadn't, and they saw that maybe there was one fewer cases of death 00:52:54.700 --> 00:53:04.100 from breast cancer, but for every six increased deaths from something else, heart disease, 00:53:04.100 --> 00:53:12.780 for example, and Goffman showed that all kinds of medical x-rays to the chest increase heart 00:53:12.780 --> 00:53:22.340 disease as well as breast cancer, but when you limit the thing that you're focusing on 00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:31.380 and forget total mortality, then you can, with a little jiggling of the figures, you 00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:42.540 can get a slight decrease in a certain kind of mortality, but basically any exposure to 00:53:42.540 --> 00:53:51.420 ionizing radiation is going to increase your chances of having a bad outcome, even if it's 00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:53.620 years and years later. 00:53:53.620 --> 00:53:57.140 So in the few minutes we have left, Ray, maybe you can summarize. 00:53:57.140 --> 00:54:02.860 We have some background radiation going up now because of Fukushima and that disaster. 00:54:02.860 --> 00:54:07.700 Maybe you can just quickly outline what people can do to minimize their exposure. 00:54:07.700 --> 00:54:17.500 Yeah, if a very intense cloud comes by with a lot of radioactive iodine, the thyroid is 00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:26.340 the first thing that's able to be protected by eating iodine-rich foods or taking enough 00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:32.460 thyroid to suppress your thyroid-stimulating hormones so the gland becomes inactive. 00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:41.180 A spoonful of powdered kelp or other seaweed will pretty well saturate your body so you 00:54:41.180 --> 00:54:45.860 don't take up the radioactive iodine. 00:54:45.860 --> 00:54:53.460 Some of the things being recommended neglect the fact that the iodine is only going to 00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:59.260 protect your thyroid, but if you take too much iodine and suppress the function of your 00:54:59.260 --> 00:55:09.340 thyroid gland, you're going to slow all of your metabolic processes, including the DNA 00:55:09.340 --> 00:55:11.380 repair enzymes. 00:55:11.380 --> 00:55:19.740 So keeping your metabolic rate high by avoiding the toxic foods is very important for your 00:55:19.740 --> 00:55:24.100 general long-range resistance to radiation. 00:55:24.100 --> 00:55:33.380 The iodine danger is passed in about six weeks after the accident, so the long-range things 00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:41.980 such as cesium and strontium, you want to help to wash those out of your body after 00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:51.060 they've been taken in, and eating a calcium-rich diet and a potassium-rich diet will increase 00:55:51.060 --> 00:55:59.300 the turnover of these in your tissues, while a thyroid-supporting diet, low in the polyunsaturated 00:55:59.300 --> 00:56:08.820 fats, will increase the repair processes and prevent, to some extent, those long-range 00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:15.500 bystander effects that can increase for years after the exposure. 00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:17.100 And you mentioned red light before. 00:56:17.100 --> 00:56:19.660 Is that an effective technique? 00:56:19.660 --> 00:56:20.660 Yeah. 00:56:20.660 --> 00:56:29.580 During, for example, if you're near a flash of radiation, if you have a CAT scan or some 00:56:29.580 --> 00:56:39.020 kind of very intense radiation, those effects will linger as excited molecules in your tissue 00:56:39.020 --> 00:56:40.380 for hours. 00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:47.140 So if in the first hour after you get a flash exposure of intense radiation, you get lots 00:56:47.140 --> 00:56:53.100 of sunlight, or in the absence of sunlight, you want bright incandescent light that's 00:56:53.100 --> 00:56:55.820 rich in the red spectrum. 00:56:55.820 --> 00:57:04.580 It's the red frequency that deactivates those excited electrons in molecules following intense 00:57:04.580 --> 00:57:05.580 radiation. 00:57:05.580 --> 00:57:11.380 And I suppose it would be best to avoid milk from cows that are eating in the field, if 00:57:11.380 --> 00:57:12.860 that comes from it. 00:57:12.860 --> 00:57:20.460 Well, yeah, but I, 40, 50 years ago, looked at the figures for the amount of radiation 00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:28.300 in milk and in vegetables, and the government was telling people to avoid milk that the 00:57:28.300 --> 00:57:33.340 cows had just absorbed strontium into. 00:57:33.340 --> 00:57:41.780 And I saw that if you ate vegetables for your nutrients, you would be getting several times 00:57:41.780 --> 00:57:49.700 more strontium than you would from the milk, because the cow has concentrated calcium where 00:57:49.700 --> 00:57:57.020 the plants tend to receive a high proportion of strontium from the fresh fallout. 00:57:57.020 --> 00:58:02.260 So the cow is a good filter even during the fallout storm. 00:58:02.260 --> 00:58:03.700 All right. 00:58:03.700 --> 00:58:10.740 Well, Ray, thanks so much for your knowledge and advice and for talking to us today. 00:58:10.740 --> 00:58:12.540 Okay, thank you. 00:58:12.540 --> 00:58:13.540 All right. 00:58:13.540 --> 00:58:14.540 Goodbye for now. 00:58:14.540 --> 00:58:15.540 Bye. 00:58:16.540 --> 00:58:19.700 And unfortunately, we're out of time. 00:58:19.700 --> 00:58:21.980 Once again, this has been Politics and Science. 00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:27.620 I'm John Barkhausen, and you're listening to WMRWLP Warren, and the preceding and the 00:58:27.620 --> 00:58:33.820 following show did and does present the viewpoints of its participants and does not necessarily 00:58:33.820 --> 00:58:39.180 represent an official opinion of any other person or organization. 00:58:39.180 --> 00:58:43.700 Some past editions of this show can be found at Radio4All.net. 00:58:43.700 --> 00:58:45.900 Search for Politics and Science. 00:58:45.900 --> 00:58:49.740 That's Radio4All.net.