WEBVTT

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 The following show was recorded on the 7th of February 2012 and more

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 information can be found about Ray Peat's work at RayPeat.com that's R-A-Y-P-E-A-T.com

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 Hello and welcome to Politics and Science. I'm your host John Barkasin and

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 this is part three of a discussion about progesterone and Dr. Raymond Peat's work

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 with progesterone over the years. Dr. Peat, for those who don't know, has a PhD

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 in biology from the University of Oregon and with a speciality in physiology and

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 has done a lot of research in the fields of endocrinology and science history. So

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 Ray, welcome once again to Politics and Science. All right, so in the last two

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 shows, Ray, we covered some of the history of and your work with progesterone. This

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 week, I'm hoping, we'll be able to cover some of the politics and economic

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 pressures affecting the science of progesterone. So to start this off, in

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 spite of its proven anti-cancer, anti-inflammatory effects, progesterone is

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 now deemed a carcinogenic substance under California's Proposition 65. So I

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 guess my question is how did this turn of events come to pass?

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 Yeah, the proposition says that you can sell carcinogens in any form you want,

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 but you just have to quote the law that says this is known by the state of

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 California to cause cancer and/or birth defects and such. But it isn't a

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 law against selling carcinogens, just that you have to warn against them. And

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 the-partly driven by lawyers who were given the opportunity to enforce the law

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 instead of the state, lawyers could make-collect the fines themselves. They

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 chose to interpret the law to mean that the presence of anything which could be

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 carcinogenic in any other situation makes a product require the warning. So

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 that it ended up that parking lots had to be warned that they were

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 carcinogenic. The public had to see a sign if they went into the parking lot.

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 What was the rationale for the parking lots, Ray? Oh, it was either the

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 paving material or the fact that there were cars there emitting exhaust fumes.

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 Oh my god. Chocolate producers were sued, manufacturers of drinking glasses that

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 had paint on the outside, bread manufacturers, potato vendors, vegetables,

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 anything that-there was a whole wave of these insane prosecutions and lawyers

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 made a lot of money. And the real function of that law, besides enriching

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 lawyers, it was to put the warnings everywhere in the produce department of

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 grocery stores and on apartment buildings and on fishing tackle and

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 hardware and so on. So that it became a joke. Everything was labeled a

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 carcinogen, so the carcinogens became invisible. The real carcinogens were

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 submerged in this phony warning business. And it was still legal to sell

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 carcinogens, but since everything had the warning, the public basically wasn't

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 warned against the real carcinogens. And physicians could prescribe the

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 carcinogens as long as they were under a doctor's orders. That's a

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 brilliant, brilliant strategy on the part of business, it sounds like. Yeah, and

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 very bad for the public. It had been brought to the attention of the

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 Attorney General and so on. And the lawyers basically are in control of the

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 government so that anything that would impair their ability to shake down the

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 public doesn't interest the law enforcement people. I gathered some

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 evidence and asked the Attorney General if non-profit corporations aren't

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 supposed to take money from industries to destroy their competitors and such.

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 And I gathered up evidence that made it look pretty clear that that was what was

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 going on. They said if I can prove that they have committed a crime, they will

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 investigate. So if you do all the work. Then they would just investigate and say

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 they would prosecute. And I didn't quite follow, what does a non-profit have to

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 do with it? The non-profit organizations were being formed either as

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 fronts for lawyers to extort money or as I couldn't prove it because I

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 couldn't subpoena the documents. But on its surface it looks very much like the

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 competing industries are using those organizations to get rid of progesterone

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 among other products. Sure that makes perfect sense. So they basically form

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 kind of a cartel and go after their competitors. It's a very strange

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 law where you, it sounds like the Wild West, where you just anybody can

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 deputize themselves and go after somebody else to enforce that very open

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 ended law. Yeah and the state prescribes the type of penalty that they can get. I

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 forget it was like $50 for each drinking glass that was sold without a warning.

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 Wow. I heard it was a huge amount of money, millions of dollars that the

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 lawyers have collected. That's so Kafka-esque and it sounds so

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 ridiculous but it actually has serious repercussions for somebody who's trying

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 to sell a product that they think is is helpful. For instance what happens to you

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 if you don't obtain the California seal of approval of not being a carcinogen?

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 If you don't have 10 employees or more the law doesn't apply to you so you

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 legally shouldn't be able to tell anything without a warning except the

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 lawyers ignore that. They go ahead and extort money from people who just on the

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 face of the law it can't be applied to. And do they threaten to pursue you in

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 court if you don't pay them off or do they actually? Oh yeah, oh they do.

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 First they threaten you then they pursue you and they keep it going for

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 years. So it's basically extortion I guess. Yeah, if you google

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 "shakedown lawyers California" you'll get some of the history of it.

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 Okay I had no idea because in our state I think it carries quite a bit of

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 weight if you're listed as a carcinogen in the state of

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 California. Yeah, the California lawyers were getting big money from foreign

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 corporations even outside the US because they do business with California and

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 California has such a big economy that they control the world.

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 Okay well that sort of sets the context for the legal environment in California

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 and when did you become aware that progesterone was going to be coming

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 under the sights of these guys? I guess about 10 or 15 years ago some of

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 the manufacturers started labeling the progesterone itself known by California

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 to be a carcinogen. So it was already a done deal when you first heard about it?

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 Yeah I think it was 1987 when the California review happened I'm not sure

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 of the date when the Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment

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 is what California's board is called they call it WEHA and I they weren't

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 willing to give me the names of the people who were there qualified experts

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 by their definition who made those decisions but the law requires them to

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 either just automatically list it because World Health Organization's or

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 National Toxicology Program listed they could just defer to them but in this

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 case they decided to have their board of qualified experts look at the relevant

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 evidence and out of thousands of publications on the issue of cancer and

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 progesterone they picked out about a dozen articles that they said was the

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 relevant decisive evidence and of those several of them weren't even progesterone

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 there were birth control pills and things that contained no progesterone at

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 all they listed them as the relevant evidence but when I got them to send me

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 copies they weren't even about progesterone in several cases and then

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 the ones that did involve progesterone in the research every one of them was

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 totally incompetent as toxicology or science or cancer research they were

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 clearly manipulated to to get a case against progesterone but they failed in

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 every case they had only one outside person testified during the meeting

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 Richard Edgren and they asked him why he had chosen to testify and he said

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 because progesterone isn't a carcinogen and then he went over some of the studies

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 and mentioned that one of the studies using non progesterone chemicals had

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 produced some tumors that weren't metastatic but he wasn't in that moment

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 talking about progesterone but the chairman of the committee heard him say

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 metastatic even though he had said they weren't and and since the topic of the

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 meeting was progesterone you know Edgren wasn't talking about progesterone in

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 that case that was the basis for making the decision like the March brothers

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 couldn't have been sillier yeah yeah or Kafka couldn't have been more surreal

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 yeah you said Richard Edgren they asked him why he had chosen to testify it

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 sounds like he wasn't even going to be there except that he was concerned with

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 this yeah because he pointed out that if you call non carcinogens carcinogens

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 then what's the public going to think about real carcinogens you're going to

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 ruin the whole issue of public safety if you blur anti carcinogens with

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 carcinogens and one of the studies that they listed as evidence proving that

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 progesterone is a carcinogen the article introduced itself by reference to some

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 studies by Alexander Lipschutz who had published many papers and a book

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 describing the anti-tumor properties of progesterone yeah and this article

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 referenced that and said that they were checking up on on Lipschutz work but

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 Lipschutz in his paper that they were referring to had specified that

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 progesterone given continuously prevents or even sometimes reverses cancer

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 and in this paper that they the California considered evidence of

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 carcinogenicity they gave intermittent progesterone treatments exactly what

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 Lipschutz had said wouldn't prevent cancer and they concluded it doesn't

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 prevent cancer that was all paper consisted of a bad reputation of

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 Lipschutz evidence that progesterone prevents cancer and California

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 presented this this strange non refutation of progesterone as a cancer

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 preventive as evidence that it causes cancer. It's bizarre but very

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 effective it sounds like you know nobody's gonna question it because

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 they're the experts. All that was there was the title there are a panel of

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 experts it was probably the receptionist who looked up some titles that had

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 cancer and progesterone in them. And they just figured nobody's ever gonna care or

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 look into it. Yeah. And that's because there's no money behind making

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 progesterone as you pointed out in an earlier show so that they're not really

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 stepping on any big toes when they do this except the people who are actually

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 benefiting from the use of progesterone. Yeah and around the time that someone

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 petitioned to take progesterone off the list and that petition was rejected

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 because the person in charge of responding to the petition mentioned a

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 study that was done at the World Health Organization Cancer Research Agency as

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 having shown that progesterone was a carcinogen. So I looked that up and the

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 people at the World Health Organization said they didn't know of any such thing

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 but they looked carefully and finally found one with the same date that

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 California had cited and it wasn't about progesterone. What was it about?

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 Synthetic progesterone. Oh I see. And California had cited that one obscure

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 article not about progesterone to refute the petition that had presented evidence

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 that progesterone protects against cancer but that was just a way of saying

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 no don't bother us at the point that I asked them who made the decisions that

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 were decisive even though the decisions violated their own regulations. The head

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 of the agency said we don't have the resources to answer your questions

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 anymore. Like go away. Yeah. Please go away. You're bothering me. Yeah. And around the

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 same time someone petitioned to remove saccharin from the list of carcinogens

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 and there's a lot of evidence that saccharin is a carcinogen and the

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 California decided to remove it from their list on the basis that the reason

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 it causes cancer of the bladder in rats is peculiar to rat bladders and it's

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 sort of a crystallization and the concussion caused by falling crystals

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 on the wall of the bladder. Basically that's what the argument consisted of.

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 They had no evidence that it was the contact of crystals with the bladder but

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 they found the paper that said it does cause crystallization in the bladder.

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 Yeah. But there are also articles that showed that human urine

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 crystallizes in exactly the same way the rats did so there was nothing special

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 about the rat crystals. Yeah. It was just again the reaching as far as they could

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 not to see the evidence and so they took it off the list. Again just as false in

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 the other direction to take saccharin off the list because it's a big industry

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 moneymaker. Yeah. So it sounds like they're there to represent certain

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 interests and basically be a filter for what becomes available to the public or

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 not based on those interests not the public's interests. Yeah. That's their

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 public. The corporations are the only public they're concerned with. Yeah and I

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 recall from your newsletters that some of the tests they cited against

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 progesterone some of them were progestins as you said and you explained

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 last time that progestins actually have many of them have opposite effects of

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 progesterone. They're synthetic progesterone and they don't. Are they

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 considered synthetic? Is that the right term? Progestin? Well yeah they're

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 synthetic but they are there are different molecules so they aren't

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 progesterone at all. Right. Okay. And they're the industry got the FDA to

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 allow them to call them progestins even though they are good contraceptives they

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 prevent gestation but because there is a change in the lining of a rabbit uterus

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 under their influence that happens to coincide with the changes caused by

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 progesterone at least in one or two features. On the basis of that they call

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 a non-progestin a progestin. It's a contraceptive but they can see one

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 feature of overlap with progesterone so that's the strength for calling them a

00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:57.520
 progestin. I see and for those who didn't hear the first two parts of this talk

00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:04.000
 about progesterone Dr. Peat was telling us that many times progestins are

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 prescribed people think they're taking progesterone but they're actually taking

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 these different molecules named after progesterone but actually do not have

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 many of the benefits that progesterone does. Yeah in 1970 when I was

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 working on progesterone occasionally someone would say did you see the paper

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 in some big science magazine that progesterone causes cancer and at that

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 time they were actually putting it in the title progesterone causes cancer but

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 they weren't working with progesterone they were just even the editors of

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 science journals were letting them get away with calling things by what by

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 false names and by the early 70s the science world had clarified their

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 terminology enough so that they started consistently calling the the other

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 molecules progestins or progestogens and so there has been much less scientific

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 confusion about the terms but medical doctors are still pretty well confused

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 about the difference between the anti-progestational progestins and the

00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.400
 real progesterone. And consequently the public's also very confused because I

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 know a lot of people who are taking estrogen with progestins and they think

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 they're getting both progesterone and estrogen. Yeah natural progesterone has

00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:46.400
 to carry the warning that it can cause heart defects because some of the things

00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:53.200
 that are called progestins cause heart defects and so something that has one

00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:58.880
 property of progesterone gets to be called called the progestin and then

00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:06.120
 anything toxic that molecule does gets laid over on real progesterone and and

00:22:06.120 --> 00:22:15.320
 that prevents for example women with epilepsy are told to avoid progesterone

00:22:15.320 --> 00:22:20.160
 during pregnancy because it'll cause heart defects but actually the real

00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:26.600
 progesterone has been reported to prevent almost all birth defects when

00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:32.600
 it's used before pregnancy. And as we talked about in the earlier shows most

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 of these rulings seem to be connected to the estrogen industry which just one

00:22:37.600 --> 00:22:41.640
 drug alone we were talking about last week Premarin I think was two billion

00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:46.760
 dollars in sales roughly before the World Health Initiative tests became

00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:51.560
 public and estrogen sales dropped so Dr. Peat was saying last week that as

00:22:51.560 --> 00:22:55.600
 estrogen sales dropped progesterone sales were going up and this alarmed

00:22:55.600 --> 00:23:00.680
 the industry and consequently it seems like there's a move against progesterone.

00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:09.520
 Yeah and you can see it in some of the traditional centers of estrogen

00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:18.880
 promoting research they around that time turned against progesterone instead of

00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.320
 concentrating on on how good estrogen is they're stretching to find something bad

00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:32.200
 linked to progesterone. Hmm that's very interesting. Who is sitting on these

00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.960
 boards Ray? Where do these people come from? Do you know any of them or have

00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:43.400
 heard of them? Oh I looked up everyone on the board and we're talking about

00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:47.200
 the board that decided what was a carcinogen in California excuse me. Yeah

00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:56.560
 yeah some of them were linked to the the university that was doing the

00:23:56.560 --> 00:24:06.480
 anti-progesterone research and the leading anti-progesterone guy was

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:14.000
 Malcolm Pike and he and one or two others formed a company to promote a

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:24.920
 birth control pill based on his idea of protecting against progesterone and the

00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:34.560
 state of California was using federal grants and other funding to support

00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:42.520
 corporations his included so so government money was flowing into his

00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:50.200
 anti-progesterone business while he was sitting influential in saying that

00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:59.120
 progesterone is a carcinogen and everyone I looked up on the board was

00:24:59.120 --> 00:25:08.560
 either directly or indirectly concerned with with something competing for

00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:15.000
 example one of the people was on the board of a company promoting

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:24.840
 transdermal medical treatments things that will administer drugs through the

00:25:24.840 --> 00:25:30.840
 skin while most of the progesterone products were being delivered through

00:25:30.840 --> 00:25:42.080
 the skin this person was representing a company that would would probably be in

00:25:42.080 --> 00:25:49.840
 line to market a medical progesterone transdermal. I see and and what

00:25:49.840 --> 00:25:53.400
 universities were they working for and what were their fields of expertise

00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:58.640
 where are they physiologists? Do you know? Most of it there was only one biologist

00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:08.800
 on the committee and several toxicologists and the University of

00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:15.200
 Southern California has I think the biggest concentration of anti

00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:23.160
 progesterone work. I looked at the USC website about five six years ago and I

00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:33.000
 found easily I think it was 140 references to the glorious properties

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:42.840
 of estrogen and I found I forget numerous but not a competitive number

00:26:42.840 --> 00:26:48.080
 numerous references to progesterone but every one of them was about its harmful

00:26:48.080 --> 00:26:55.720
 properties and if you look at them objectively you have to look hard to

00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:04.360
 find an objectively beneficial effect of estrogen and you have to stretch very

00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:10.560
 hard to find a harmful effect of progesterone. Is the contents of this

00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:14.680
 library because they've called it or they've just always cultivated articles

00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.400
 with the right attitude as far as they're concerned? Well the things on the

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:26.280
 website were research projects in progress. I think they were all in progress.

00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:30.120
 Right so they're being funded through the university probably from

00:27:30.120 --> 00:27:36.960
 pharmaceutical? Yeah. Research companies? Yeah. So that's basically that

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:41.520
 university has come down on the side of the pharmaceutical companies that are

00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:49.960
 funding them. Yeah there are several labs around the country.

00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:57.760
 Berkeley has more recently moved in that direction. Michigan was a big

00:27:57.760 --> 00:28:06.520
 center of estrogen research and some of those people moved to UC Berkeley and

00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:12.160
 interestingly the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory is involved in

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:18.600
 antiprogesterone research which seems to have grown out of the chemical warfare

00:28:18.600 --> 00:28:23.920
 line of thinking. Yeah that's really interesting that's a weapons lab

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:29.000
 basically and why are they interested in estrogen research or

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:36.400
 antiprogesterone research do you think? Well obviously would be for benign and

00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:46.680
 harmless purposes. I'm sure. Yeah are they affiliated with businesses do you

00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:50.280
 know? I don't know anything about the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. I don't

00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:55.320
 know I think it's all government money. Well one of the things you've written

00:28:55.320 --> 00:29:03.240
 about Elwood Jensen who's the supposed inventor of the concept of the receptor

00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:11.400
 protein the hormone receptor is that right he invented that concept? Yeah

00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:20.920
 there were the idea of receptors in general was being discussed in various

00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:30.760
 fields but for estrogen the enzymologists were progressing very

00:29:30.760 --> 00:29:39.680
 quickly in understanding the effects of estrogen and molecules like estrogen

00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:49.800
 through the 1940s into the 1950s and one of the lines of very productive research

00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:56.920
 was showing that you can change estrogen back and forth between estrone and

00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:06.120
 estradiol. Estrone is relatively inactive estradiol is very active and

00:30:06.120 --> 00:30:18.720
 that was classified as enzymology and Jensen's argument was that if

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:29.360
 estrogen acts by activating a genetic program and so it's only a female

00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:35.920
 acting substance because females are genetically determined to be female and

00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:41.760
 so what estrogen does is act on a receptor that activates a genetic

00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:52.520
 program and if something is acted on by enzymes men have enzymes that are going

00:30:52.520 --> 00:31:01.200
 to do the same reactions and the enzymology tended to generalize the

00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:11.480
 estrogen issue and make it a masculine problem as well as female but Jensen

00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:20.000
 got the only support from the atomic energy commission which controlled the

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:32.160
 isotopes needed to do enzyme studies and he used an isotope labeled form of

00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:40.680
 estrogen and in his experiments with uterus tissue claimed to show that there

00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:46.920
 was no oxidation or reduction of estrogen by the uterus and said that's

00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:54.520
 the end of the enzyme tradition it's all receptor and genes now and that spread

00:31:54.520 --> 00:32:04.800
 through the research world and by mid 1960s was the dogma but then the

00:32:04.800 --> 00:32:10.720
 enzymologist started getting the same isotopes that he had had and showed that

00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:16.080
 in fact the old 1940s research was exactly what's happening and now

00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:21.840
 everyone knows that estrogen, estradiol and estrone are perfectly

00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:30.160
 interchangeable and that's exactly where progesterone and thyroid and stress

00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:37.040
 hormones interact with estrogen. Progesterone turns off some of the

00:32:37.040 --> 00:32:43.640
 enzymes that activate estrogen and activate enzymes that inactivate

00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:52.480
 estrogen so the enzyme approach opens up the whole issue of environmental

00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.800
 physiology, nutritional, metabolic effects on the estrogen system and

00:32:57.800 --> 00:33:05.560
 estrogen's deranging effects on all of those systems so that's all now coming

00:33:05.560 --> 00:33:16.200
 back but 50 years of belief in a genetic explanation of why estrogen is so good

00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:21.000
 for females and harmless to everyone else.

00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:28.840
 You got too fuzzy on that last sentence I couldn't understand it. Yeah I was

00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:32.880
 saying that Elwood Jensen the reason I brought him up is because you mentioned

00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.680
 Livermore labs and he worked in the chemical weapons industry isn't that

00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:44.840
 right? Yeah University of Chicago I think is where he was working and that was a

00:33:44.840 --> 00:33:52.960
 big weapons laboratory. The government doesn't say much about their chemical

00:33:52.960 --> 00:34:01.080
 biological warfare research but if you look at the careers of some of the

00:34:01.080 --> 00:34:08.320
 famous biologists you see that there you can't explain their achievements other

00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:16.160
 than that they were being pushed by the Pentagon to get the information that

00:34:16.160 --> 00:34:23.600
 they needed for German chemical warfare. So just to put a political context on

00:34:23.600 --> 00:34:29.280
 Elwood Jensen's work and relate that to science you're saying that the fact that

00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.840
 he was able to shift the damage that estrogen does to the genetic causes that

00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.400
 sort of removed the liability of government pollution and industry

00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:48.360
 pollution away from them to basically random genetic problems. Yeah until just

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:55.760
 I guess about 25 years ago biologists thought about estrogen working on the

00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:05.480
 estrogen receptor as simply activating femaleness in genetic females and that

00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:13.120
 therefore it would act only on a uterus or a female breast or the female

00:35:13.120 --> 00:35:23.040
 pituitary as if a man didn't share practically all enzymes and genes with

00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:33.800
 women. Yeah it was just just an extreme case of genetic cleaning up of the

00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:41.320
 dangerous possibilities. And the actual reality of how things work. Yeah estrogen

00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:50.400
 has been known for about 30 or 40 years to act on every kind of tissue. You can

00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.840
 find the estrogen receptor everywhere but even without the estrogen receptor

00:35:54.840 --> 00:36:01.040
 you can demonstrate that it works on any kind of tissue and some of the

00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:06.320
 estrogenic compounds attached to the so-called estrogen receptor but some

00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:14.000
 have estrogenic effects without touching the estrogen receptor so really they

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:22.840
 should have a new name it's the sometime estrogen receptor activator system but

00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:29.440
 it isn't really the crucial thing because you can get estrogenic effects

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:37.440
 from radiation or cyanide or suffocation or various stresses and infections and

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:45.200
 so on they'll all bring on estrus and swelling of cells and activation of the

00:36:45.200 --> 00:36:57.200
 uterus and so on. Inflammation. Yeah and the overlap of stress and radiation and

00:36:57.200 --> 00:37:04.680
 industrial smoke and so on with estrogen that's one of the things that has been

00:37:04.680 --> 00:37:12.280
 carefully avoided and the receptor idea is crucial in covering that up. Yeah it

00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:17.320
 sounds like what he came up with was a very sort of smoke and mirrors cartoon

00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:22.320
 for selling a concept of how everything works in such a way that it fit in with

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:29.680
 the popular idea the gene being how a life is directed. People may be

00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:32.160
 wondering why we're talking about estrogen when this is a show about

00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:41.720
 progesterone. Well estrogen in the physiological situation activates the

00:37:41.720 --> 00:37:48.720
 production of progesterone and then progesterone knocks down the production

00:37:48.720 --> 00:37:58.160
 of estrogen so it's a matter of an occasional stimulus from stress or

00:37:58.160 --> 00:38:06.040
 estrogen which turns on a system that then definitively gets rid of estrogen

00:38:06.040 --> 00:38:15.120
 and leaves things operating for the rest of the month and it's only the

00:38:15.120 --> 00:38:20.400
 exaggerated prolonged effect of estrogen that becomes a danger and

00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:26.200
 progesterone is is the basic thing for getting rid of estrogen and if you look

00:38:26.200 --> 00:38:33.840
 at the enzymes involved progesterone inactivates the aromatase enzyme that

00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:41.600
 produces estrogen from the androgens and it activates the two types of

00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:50.160
 detoxifying enzymes the glucuronide transferase and the sulfur transferase

00:38:50.160 --> 00:39:00.040
 that attach sulfuric acid to make it water-soluble and it estrogen opposes

00:39:00.040 --> 00:39:08.520
 those and progesterone inactivates the estrogen activated enzymes that remove

00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:16.000
 the detoxified sulfate and glucuronide so it's just an amazingly comprehensive

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:22.520
 system that progesterone does and only real progesterone does that so

00:39:22.520 --> 00:39:30.960
 systematically it knocks out the production and maintenance and

00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:40.240
 activation of estrogen and it even destroys the so-called estrogen receptor

00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:46.080
 protein so at the action and the production end and all of the

00:39:46.080 --> 00:39:52.000
 intermediate steps progesterone systematically destroys the estrogen

00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:01.200
 system and that's one of the reasons that progesterone is so universally

00:40:01.200 --> 00:40:07.720
 important but it's the the opposite side of why estrogen is so universally

00:40:07.720 --> 00:40:16.520
 dangerous progesterone even protects against radiation as part of that same

00:40:16.520 --> 00:40:23.160
 system because radiation imitates estrogen and the cancers produced by

00:40:23.160 --> 00:40:33.040
 either radiation or estrogen these are equally protected against by progesterone

00:40:33.040 --> 00:40:41.880
 so it's a comprehensive protective substance against the full range of

00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:49.800
 biological variants and Elwood Jensen the inventor of the estrogen receptor

00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.920
 that concept and he goes on to talk about his work it was apparent to him

00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.560
 that very small amounts of estrogen cause cancer and that was his challenge

00:40:57.560 --> 00:41:01.160
 is to figure out why that was and he went on to try to discover other

00:41:01.160 --> 00:41:07.080
 chemicals that opposed to estrogen and he came up with tamoxifen I think

00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:12.200
 everybody knows that has a lot of bad side effects a man named Dan Lednesser

00:41:12.200 --> 00:41:22.920
 gives a more insider view of where tamoxifen came from and the people who

00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:32.120
 were working on the the fact that estrogen is likely polycyclic aromatic

00:41:32.120 --> 00:41:42.040
 hydrocarbons in causing not only cancer but inflammation and and fibrosis they

00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:49.520
 were looking for anti-inflammatory things because the polycyclic

00:41:49.520 --> 00:41:55.880
 hydrocarbons and estrogen create inflammation and looking for

00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:02.840
 anti-inflammatory things they accidentally found that tamoxifen was

00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:09.440
 anti-estrogen as well and out of that line of research according to Dan

00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:19.440
 Lednesser even Celebrex the what do you call them the COX-2 inhibiting

00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:27.680
 enzades even these derived from that line of research that was thinking

00:42:27.680 --> 00:42:36.960
 about a more basic view of what estrogen does the receptor wasn't involved at all

00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:44.040
 in that kind of thinking okay well maybe I could be this quoting Elwood Johnson

00:42:44.040 --> 00:42:49.240
 but it sounded like he was involved in something to do with tamoxifen and but

00:42:49.240 --> 00:42:52.320
 the thing I didn't understand was it's been known for a long time that

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:58.160
 progesterone does oppose estrogen and does it so completely as you pointed out

00:42:58.160 --> 00:43:01.600
 and so why were they even bothering to look for something else that's what

00:43:01.600 --> 00:43:12.120
 puzzled me I think you have to imagine the mentality of like is the person he

00:43:12.120 --> 00:43:23.200
 said suggested the looking for how the estrogen affects the tissues was Charles

00:43:23.200 --> 00:43:34.400
 Huggins Huggins was um I think he founded the lab that that Jensen was

00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:42.440
 working in and according to Jensen he gave him the the idea but I think you

00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:50.840
 have to see what flakes they were even though it was the University of Chicago

00:43:50.840 --> 00:44:00.160
 they they were just totally unaware of of the world of biochemistry as related

00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:08.600
 to cancer I don't I don't really know how it was possible you'd have to have a

00:44:08.600 --> 00:44:16.640
 detailed biography of how what courses they were teaching and so on but Huggins

00:44:16.640 --> 00:44:25.680
 is the guy that theorized that since you know he read a textbook in which they

00:44:25.680 --> 00:44:33.000
 made a rooster grow its comb by giving it testosterone and the classical thing

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:39.920
 isn't so they said since testosterone makes a man develop a prostate gland and

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:48.560
 estrogen makes women develop breasts if you want to stop the growth of cancer in

00:44:48.560 --> 00:44:57.240
 the breast you will either remove estrogen or give testosterone that was

00:44:57.240 --> 00:45:05.080
 his first suggestion I think and for the prostate you would either castrate the

00:45:05.080 --> 00:45:13.400
 man or give the man estrogen or both because his simple idea was that the

00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:20.280
 female and male were opposite and so if you give the opposite hormone you will

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:26.960
 antagonize the growth promoting effect of their hormone basically a completely

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:33.000
 idiotic idea at the time he proposed it but no one was there to tell him so that

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:37.360
 immediately started doctors all over the country castrating men by the millions

00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:46.360
 and for I guess 45 50 years they were giving men estrogen with or without

00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:56.760
 castration to treat prostate cancer all on that very ignorant early 20th century

00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:02.840
 idea of opposition of the hormones I had no idea that that went on the castration

00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:12.320
 yeah and Huggins was the one who besides proposing castrating men to cure prostate

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:20.480
 cancer and giving them estrogen he first proposed removing the ovaries to stop

00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:26.560
 the estrogenic stimulation and then since some of them didn't recover from

00:46:26.560 --> 00:46:36.360
 that he took out their adrenal glands as another source of estrogen and that was

00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:44.160
 practiced up right through the 60s I think until about 1970 and at one point

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:54.280
 Huggins even proposed treating breast cancer with estrogen just didn't make

00:46:54.280 --> 00:47:00.240
 any sense but he had sort of a Frankenstein mentality let's tinker

00:47:00.240 --> 00:47:04.840
 with things and maybe we'll come up with something and he saw everything and just

00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:11.400
 black and white yeah and that that's the mentality that Jensen was working with

00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:23.000
 and he you know I think it involved basically either incredibly bad science

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:29.600
 or deliberate fraud for him to say that estrogen absolutely wasn't being

00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:36.160
 metabolized in the tissues where where it was having an effect and that was

00:47:36.160 --> 00:47:42.520
 that was his proof of the that it acted only through the receptor well that's

00:47:42.520 --> 00:47:47.360
 reminds me of HL Mencken saying that for for every complex problem there's a

00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:55.160
 simple simple concise answer that's absolutely wrong and perhaps we only

00:47:55.160 --> 00:48:01.360
 have about 10 minutes left I believe it would be good for people to hear about

00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:06.920
 how progesterone does work in combating cancer I don't think we've actually

00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:10.200
 talked too much about that mostly we've talked about its anti-inflammatory

00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:14.720
 effects but and maybe you could cite some of the uses it's actually had with

00:48:14.720 --> 00:48:23.760
 success well Alexander Lipschitz was the person who did the most comprehensive

00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:33.440
 work showing that where estrogen causes fibrosis fibroids first and eventually

00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:40.440
 cancer it acts first on the uterus then on the breasts then on the lungs

00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:46.840
 kidneys brain and it's just a matter of where estrogen concentrates that it

00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:54.120
 tends to cause fibromas and cancers and in every one of those situations

00:48:54.120 --> 00:49:01.000
 progesterone was protective and now it's known that it has this about I think nine

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:09.640
 different mechanisms by which it eliminates the estrogen problem so the

00:49:09.640 --> 00:49:18.120
 cause and effect outcome was defined by 1950 by Alexander Lipschitz and and then

00:49:18.120 --> 00:49:26.600
 the more detailed stuff is still being developed an Italian has done some very

00:49:26.600 --> 00:49:33.480
 good work looking at the range of things progesterone does defensively someone

00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:40.920
 named Mendelsohn has done a lot of work on the protective effects of progesterone

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:50.400
 against estrogen but the the full reason of why progesterone is is protective

00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:57.000
 against cancer you have to look at the the whole spectrum of what estrogen is

00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:03.800
 doing the first thing estrogen does is cause the cell to take up water and

00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:10.320
 taking up water stimulates cell division and fat production and a lot of other

00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:18.000
 enzyme activities these effects happen within minutes of the time of estrogen

00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:25.440
 exposure and so anyone looking at simple tissue biological experiments way back

00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:32.320
 80 years as soon as they had a concentrated estrogen like material they

00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:38.640
 could see that it instantaneously was causing the tissue to take up water and

00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:48.080
 begin producing fats and other substances and to divide so it takes at

00:50:48.080 --> 00:50:54.720
 least several hours for genes to get activated and cause cellular changes so

00:50:54.720 --> 00:51:01.320
 obviously the receptor wasn't involved in those instantaneous effects of

00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:09.720
 estrogen and those are exactly what the essence of the cancer problem is if you

00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:18.680
 start an inflammation that causes cells to keep taking up water in that stressed

00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:30.440
 condition of activating cell chemistry they're using energy faster and the

00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:36.880
 stimulation of cell division is is tending to use up the supply of oxygen

00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:44.760
 and sugar in my thesis research one of the things I did was show that adding

00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:51.640
 estrogen to a system such as uterus lowers the oxygen tension it just sucks

00:51:51.640 --> 00:51:58.280
 the oxygen out of the system and so it kills the embryo that's trying to

00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:04.240
 implant if there's a little too much estrogen or not enough progesterone so

00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:10.080
 that stimulation creates an oxygen deficiency and as far as sugar is

00:52:10.080 --> 00:52:17.000
 available the sugar will be glycolyzed to produce emergency energy in the

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:24.800
 absence of enough oxygen to meet the stimulation the glycolysis produces

00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:31.880
 lactic acid the production of lactic acid leaving the cell raises the pH

00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:39.040
 inside the cell and that increased pH keeps the swelling going on activates

00:52:39.040 --> 00:52:45.840
 cell division and expensive energy so it needs something from the outside to stop

00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:51.320
 the production of lactic acid and deliver oxygen and so on progesterone is

00:52:51.320 --> 00:52:56.320
 one of the essential things for stopping that process but once it starts under

00:52:56.320 --> 00:53:01.840
 the influence of estrogen you get the lactic acid production which creates a

00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:09.960
 vicious cycle of cell activation and the lactic acid acts as a it increases the

00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:16.840
 supply of blood and spreads growth of blood vessels into the environment so it

00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:25.000
 it activates everything that you need to produce a tumor and all that's needed is

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:32.280
 the absence of an anti-inflammatory energy restoring substance such as

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:37.840
 aspirin or progesterone to stop this process if you don't have those

00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:45.160
 available of the lactic acid stimulates surrounding cells to change their

00:53:45.160 --> 00:53:55.080
 physiology in ways that you have a progressive increase of the malignancy

00:53:55.080 --> 00:54:03.800
 behavior of the cells in in the simplest situation an injury causes the lactic

00:54:03.800 --> 00:54:10.320
 acid to be produced which activates the energy changes and growth to heal the

00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:17.400
 wound but at a certain point the system should come in with the anti-inflammatory

00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:23.640
 substances such as progesterone to finish off the healing and in the

00:54:23.640 --> 00:54:30.200
 absence the healing attempt at healing simply goes on and creates this swelling

00:54:30.200 --> 00:54:36.600
 and oxygen deficient situation and if you grow cells in the culture dish and

00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:44.880
 deprive them of oxygen just by having them in a dish without good circulation

00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:52.800
 they will eventually mutate and form other types of cells that cause a

00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.680
 derangement and alteration of the tissue type so all of the steps of

00:54:58.680 --> 00:55:05.880
 cancerization can be seen structurally and metabolically in terms of wound

00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:09.560
 healing but can't be brought to completion.

00:55:09.560 --> 00:55:14.640
 Oh yeah that's that's good I like that and and I think Harry Rubin you've

00:55:14.640 --> 00:55:20.120
 pointed out has basically proven that it's that cancer is not from a gene gone

00:55:20.120 --> 00:55:25.840
 bad but rather the tissue itself has developed an unhealthy state it could

00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:30.640
 you we have a couple minutes if you could maybe cover that briefly.

00:55:30.640 --> 00:55:39.320
 He's just honestly summarized the real cancer research showing that the deranged

00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:47.320
 metabolism and structure is what causes the chromosomal damage so the instead of

00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:54.080
 genes causing the tumor the tumor causes the genetic defects.

00:55:54.080 --> 00:55:58.600
 Which is the opposite of what we hear basically every day in our popular culture when people

00:55:58.600 --> 00:56:00.800
 talk about cancers.

00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:07.200
 Yeah and when an oncologist or pathologist says your tissue shows abnormal cell

00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:13.640
 division and the wrong number of chromosomes and such if you they said

00:56:13.640 --> 00:56:18.720
 that means we have to cut it out and irradiate you and so on but if you look

00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:24.900
 at the fate of those deranged cells they're going to live maybe to the next

00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:28.680
 attempt to divide then they don't have the right number of chromosomes and the

00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:33.120
 halves will die so they're very short-lived once they get to that deranged

00:56:33.120 --> 00:56:39.320
 state but the death of the cell contributes to the inflammation of the

00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:47.600
 area and so stopping the inflammation and energy deficit is always the solution

00:56:47.600 --> 00:56:49.520
 to the problem.

00:56:49.520 --> 00:56:57.260
 And it's now recognized by some oncologists that the reason a malignant

00:56:57.260 --> 00:57:03.540
 cancer reforms after they've irradiated the area or cut out the cancer or both

00:57:03.540 --> 00:57:11.540
 the reason it reforms is that stem cells are called into the inflamed area that

00:57:11.540 --> 00:57:18.340
 has been treated and even if you irradiate a healthy area it will call

00:57:18.340 --> 00:57:24.700
 stem cells in to try to repair the wound and if the radiation deranged the

00:57:24.700 --> 00:57:31.580
 fibrous material in that area you'll produce a cancer from the irradiation.

00:57:31.580 --> 00:57:37.260
 So whenever you injure a tissue by removing a tumor you're just guaranteeing

00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:42.660
 that the body will try to repair the wound by sending in new cells which then

00:57:42.660 --> 00:57:47.180
 turn into cancer cells if the area is still sick.

00:57:47.180 --> 00:57:52.060
 So the way to actually heal or to stay healthy is to make sure that your

00:57:52.060 --> 00:57:55.580
 cellular environment is a healthy one.

00:57:55.580 --> 00:58:00.380
 So for anti-inflammatory substances that people can use, progesterone is one

00:58:00.380 --> 00:58:02.900
 of them and aspirin is another.

00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:09.180
 And anti-histamines, going way back 50 years people were seeing those anti-histamines

00:58:09.180 --> 00:58:14.700
 with occasionally cure cancer but that just didn't catch on in the profession.

00:58:14.700 --> 00:58:22.500
 10 or 15 years ago when I would mention it to someone with cancer they would

00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:29.940
 think I was like the doctor saying take an aspirin and call me later.

00:58:29.940 --> 00:58:31.500
 Call me from the next life.

00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:36.020
 But you're saying that progesterone and aspirin are actually viable cancer

00:58:36.020 --> 00:58:37.020
 treatments.

00:58:37.020 --> 00:58:41.020
 Yeah and some of the anti-histamines are definitely protective.

00:58:41.020 --> 00:58:47.260
 Alright, well if people want to read more about this they can find out lots of

00:58:47.260 --> 00:58:49.780
 Ray Peat's ideas at Raypeat.com.

00:58:49.780 --> 00:58:55.260
 That's R-A-Y-P-E-A-T dot com where I think Ray you said you had 70 articles up

00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:57.260
 there or so.

00:58:57.260 --> 00:59:02.980
 Yeah, I'll be putting about a dozen more up in a couple of weeks I think.

00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:03.980
 That's great.

00:59:03.980 --> 00:59:04.980
 It's a beautiful website by the way.

00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:07.300
 I love the sombrero and the ice cream.

00:59:07.300 --> 00:59:09.580
 Oh thanks.

00:59:09.580 --> 00:59:13.980
 And we have been talking to Dr. Raymond Peat who has a PhD in biology from the

00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:20.180
 University of Oregon and with speciality in physiology and also has done extensive

00:59:20.180 --> 00:59:23.640
 research in endocrinology and science history.

00:59:23.640 --> 00:59:26.140
 And as always it's been a real pleasure to talk to you Ray.

00:59:26.140 --> 00:59:27.940
 Thanks so much for coming on.

00:59:27.940 --> 00:59:29.380
 Okay, okay.

00:59:29.380 --> 00:59:30.380
 Thank you.

00:59:30.380 --> 00:59:33.000
 That wraps it up for Politics and Science this week.

00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:38.300
 Please tune in again next week for another edition of Politics and Science.

00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:43.140
 can be found at RadioForAll.net