WEBVTT

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 Healthy Warren 95.1 FM, community radio at its best.

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 It's four o'clock.

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 All right, welcome to Politics and Science.

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 I am your host, John Barkhausen, and this is a special edition starting a little bit

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 early, an hour earlier, and cutting off the previous show with Stone Hill and Blue Suede

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 Rock, so thanks to him for making room for this special edition of Politics and Science

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 with Dr. Raymond Peat.

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 Dr. Peat has a PhD in biology and has specialized in physiology.

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 Ray, are you there?

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 Can you?

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 Okay, well, you're not coming through.

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 Okay, try that again.

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 Hello?

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 Oh, you're there.

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 Okay.

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 Yeah, so if you could fill us in maybe a little bit about your background, it would be great.

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 Okay.

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 In the 1950s, I started studying Blake around 1958, I think, ran across him in a literature

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 course and wrote a paper on him.

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 No, I meant, yeah, 1958.

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 No, '55, I think, was when I started with a literature course.

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 And then I started my thesis on him in '58 and '59, finished my master's degree at the

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 University of Oregon with a thesis on Blake, and then by chance I taught a combination

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 of courses, mostly biology, but a painting course or two at a little college in Urbana,

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 Ohio.

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 And then because of mostly political things connected to anti-war, anti-atomic bomb testing

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 in the atmosphere and such, I left Urbana and started my own college in Mexico, named

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 it Blake College, and the government shut that down in '65.

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 So I taught linguistics at Montana State for a year and tried to restart Blake College

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 in Oregon.

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 That went on for a couple of years with the FBI constantly watching the students and such.

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 And then I went to graduate school in 1968 at the University of Oregon.

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 And I had been studying in relation to language and Blake's ideas, theory of knowledge.

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 I had been thinking about concentrating on brain physiology, but at the university I

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 found that that was the most dogmatic area in the biology department other than genetics.

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 Biological theory was sort of a caricature of primitive computer theory at the time.

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 So I found a really physiological area of biology that was reproductive and aging physiology.

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 That's what I did my thesis on.

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 And since then I've just been following up similar ideas, both in theory of knowledge

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 and function of the brain and how the reproductive hormones, for example, affect the brain function.

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 Yeah, and maybe you could say a word or two about a lot of your work has been just basically,

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 from my impression, is coallating a lot of the research that's been done over the last

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 century.

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 And maybe you could say a little bit about that.

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 When I ran into the biological dogmatism of the nerve people, they were basing everything

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 on an all or nothing function of nerve membrane.

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 From the reading I had been doing and some experiments, I was very skeptical about the

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 whole membrane control of cell biology.

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 And starting from when I was about eight years old and read about the history of inheritance

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 in the encyclopedias, I saw that there was very good evidence for the Lamarckian type

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 of inheritance all the way through the early decades of the 20th century.

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 And it was essentially stamped out by not permitting any more teachers to describe the

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 Lamarckian theory starting in 1947.

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 And that seeing that the modern biology people were explaining everything in terms of genes

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 and membranes, I looked around in the literature contemporary with what we were being assigned

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 and saw that Otto Warburg had solved most of the problems of how cancer develops, for

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 example, on the basis of damage to the respiratory energy producing system.

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 That was very convincing to me that people were ignoring him or denying his work had

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 any validity without even understanding it.

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 They always misquoted and misrepresented it.

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 At the same time, I ran into the work of Gilbert Ling in the early 1950s and saw that he had

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 demonstrated the irrelevancy of the so-called nerve membrane or cell membrane in general.

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 His work had basically solved all of the problems that my professors were working on and mystifying,

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 really confusing and creating problems where there weren't any problems.

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 And I wrote to him, I think it was in the fall of '68, and said, "You seem to have solved

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 all of these problems that are confusing my professors."

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 And he said, "You just don't understand science.

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 Science is about prestige and money and power."

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 And I've written to him three times over the decades and he's been very helpful each time.

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 Yeah, he's a, I mean, I have his book and it's way over my head in terms of math and

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 probably other things as well, but he is a brilliant man and just the face of it, his

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 theory of how cells function makes so much more sense.

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 But I think we're leaving a lot of people in the dark here about what exactly we're

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 talking about.

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 I think in general terms, you've focused on research that's been basically not in the

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 media, which is why I think it's important for you to be on radio stations like this.

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 And by the way, we are having a fundraiser here.

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 So if anybody would like to support independent science and free speech and community media,

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 feel free to go to wmrw.org where you can stream the show and you can also make a donation.

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 And we're grateful for any amount.

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 And thank you for that.

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 But I think a lot of your research, Ray, has been about basically environmental influences

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 on life and countering basically the mainstream science who is saying it's all genetic, that

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 environment has very little influence on why we get sick or anything like that.

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 Would you say that's true?

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 Yeah, except that I see the mainstream as having been exactly where I've been, except

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 they got shut down financially and in publication.

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 The same time Lamarckism was extirpated from high schools and universities, the field theory

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 of embryology was definanced, just disappeared, even though it was the mainstream based on

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 soundless facts.

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 The genetic control people, if you look at summaries of the classic papers in genetics,

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 you see how hypothetical and rationalistic it is.

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 It's sort of like it could happen approach to science.

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 And they define themselves as the mainstream simply by shutting off publication to the

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 dissidents.

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 But now it's coming back, people like Shapiro with his bacterial demonstration of environmental

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 and transgenerational influences.

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 John Cairns is another bacteria person who has kept alive the influence of the environment

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 on inheritance.

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 There's been a continuous environmental, developmental field approach in all aspects of biology,

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 but they've been systematically quieted.

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 And it seems like there's some ideological reasons.

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 We've talked about these before, but there's also some very pointed financial reasons in

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 that if the environment does affect our health, it means that corporations that are polluting

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 that environment are basically doing it at our expense in dollars and also our expense

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 in quality of life because they're killing us by poisoning.

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 You can see that over and over.

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 Every generation has its area of concentration.

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 The behaviorist psychologists basically defended poverty and oppression because they said what

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 happens to the brain of the fetus in utero is purely genetically determined, so the mother

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 can be starved half to death.

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 That isn't going to hurt the offspring.

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 And the medical establishment went along with that, justifying basically starvation, living

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 for the poor classes.

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 Yeah, I mean, all the science influences public policy in an enormous way, and so it has had

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 huge repercussions.

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 The only time I had an actual employment contract was from the Catholic University of Chile.

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 And under the government in the early 70s, they were encouraged to do research on the

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 influence of economic factors on the development of intelligence, and I got a job directing

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 a project in the influence of nutrition on brain development at the Catholic University

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 in Valparaiso, and that was part of the social change that was shut down in the coup of 1973.

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 And the whole economic intellectual environment had progressed to that point that they were

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 interested in the fetal influences of nutrition, but the American influence wiped that out

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 with Kissinger and, you know, Tate.

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 So you were there for the coup in Chile?

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 No, no, I didn't get there.

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 Oh, you didn't?

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 No.

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 Oh, you had the job, but you never got there in time.

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 Yeah.

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 Well, I guess there wouldn't have been a job.

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 Yeah.

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 Well, that's another reason that was a terrible tragedy, not only all the loss of life and

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 the stealing of their democracy.

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 Yeah, but that happens constantly in the U.S. ever since 1947 seems to be when it started

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 in every field of biology and psychology.

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 That's right.

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 We had the Cold War in biology before, and who wrote that book?

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 Carl Lindgren.

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 Carl Lindgren, that's right.

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 Yeah, while we're accusing Russia of having ideology mixed with their science, we're practicing

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 it more than anything.

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 Even the humanities were subject to the same influences.

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 Linguistics, when Blake College was shut down, I thought I would just simply shift my activity

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 to teaching linguistics.

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 I saw that the influence of Chomsky with Pentagon funding had spread across the country by the

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 late 1960s.

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 It was getting into essentially every department of the humanities.

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 I taught a course through the Honors College at the University of Oregon on interdepartmental

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 conceptions of human nature.

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 We got speakers from 10 different departments, and each of them said, "Our departmental most

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 important insight to human nature is Chomsky's generative language theory, speaking of totalitarian

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 cultures."

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 Yeah, so we're on the subject of humanities, and maybe we should get to Blake before the

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 time whizzes by and we haven't had time to discuss it.

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 This is a call-in show, but I'd like to wait for a while so we can hear Ray's thoughts

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 about William Blake, his art, and how art relates to science.

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 Your thesis for your master's, I found it online, Ray, but there's one copy of it at

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 the library in the University of, where is it, Seattle University?

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 Oregon.

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 Oregon, thank you.

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 Yeah, and I don't think they would allow me to take it out from here.

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 It was called "William Blake and the Mysticisms of Sense and Nonsense," and I bet it's interesting

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 reading.

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 I concentrated on his philosophy, epistemology and ontology and ethics, and that idea that

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 he was important in all of those areas guided my thinking in science, since it went along

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 with what I had been learning on my own, and that he was putting things together, creating

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 an image of human nature that was very different from anything that dominated our cultural

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 institutions.

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 You were introduced to him in school, you said?

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 Yeah, in a world literature course when I was a sophomore, I think I started and first

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 read some of his forms and saw that his language, even though they had the introduction to that

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 section, described him as a Christian mystic and had his songs of innocence.

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 I could see that there was irony and complexity in his language that was unique in my experience.

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 So I considered him one of the two or three brightest professors at the college, Arthur

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 Kreissman, who let me sign up for a course just in Blake for my third year of college.

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 So I spent that quarter reading people who had commented on Blake, Arthur Prye and Jacob

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 Bernowski, who happened to be a biologist, commenting on the historical setting as well

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 as Blake's own writing.

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 That pretty much formed my philosophical orientation to read and figure out how Blake fit in with

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 the mainline philosophers, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Locke and Hume.

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 Blake had commented on several of his contemporary philosophers and pretty much ridiculed them

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 as he did some of the scientists.

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 As he worked for publishers as an engraver, he was able to be acquainted with the authors

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 that were being published and engraved.

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 So he and Henry Fuseli, the painter, illustrated Erasmus Darwin's books.

00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:58.840
 Erasmus Darwin along with Lamarck really was the main initiator of evolutionary thinking

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 in biology.

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 His grandson, Charles, sort of degraded the concept and turned it into a kind of imperialism

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 along the lines of Malthus.

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 Stress, capitalism and imperialism were shaping a lot of Darwin's ideas.

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 In a later edition, Darwin said, "Well, no, I'm not exclusively saying that competition

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 between species or between individuals is quite natural selection isn't the only thing."

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 He said, "There are other forms of inheritance."

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 So in a weak, second-handed way, he recognized that his grandfather and Lamarck did have

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 some importance.

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:24.680
 Samuel Butler, in a couple of books, put down Charles Darwin as a phony for misrepresenting

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 who really thought of the idea of evolution of species.

00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:40.960
 Wait a minute, Charles Butler said that he thought of the evolution of species?

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 I didn't follow what you said about Charles Butler, I'm sorry.

00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:54.760
 Samuel Butler wrote, for example, Unconscious Memory, that analyzed the thinking of Erasmus

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 Darwin and Lamarck and showed that memory and inheritance are very similar biological

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 processes.

00:23:12.320 --> 00:23:24.840
 If you look at it in terms of present biology, it would reduce to the idea that genes are

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 always under the influence of chemical modification other than the DNA bases.

00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:40.920
 They're being methylated, for example, and the way they're expressed is modified by several

00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.320
 different kinds of chemical reactions.

00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:55.640
 So it's a chemical and physical process that blends between memory and inheritance.

00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:07.280
 And Darwin had acknowledged in the idea of Jammuels something from the whole physiology

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 affecting the inheritance.

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 And Samuel Butler pointed out that Erasmus Darwin and Lamarck had been much more coherent

00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.320
 in their description of the process.

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 And it turns out that now we talk about it as epigenetic modification of the DNA and

00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:33.640
 its expression.

00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:46.320
 But for 150 years, the Lamarckian view sort of disappeared from the main currents.

00:24:46.320 --> 00:24:51.720
 And I know we've talked about this before, but why did everybody come down on Lamarck

00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:52.720
 so much?

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 Was it just to justify the social power structure that was in place?

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 Yeah, the man who succeeded him at the French institution denounced him and said that basically

00:25:08.800 --> 00:25:17.200
 he was an anti-Christian with his ideas contradicting the Bible.

00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:30.640
 So there was a lot of Christian theological attack during the 19th century.

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:41.680
 The current issue tries to put evolution on the side of progress and science and put religion

00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.320
 against all of that, which they were in the case of Lamarck.

00:25:45.320 --> 00:25:57.520
 But with Darwin, Darwin became the imperialist philosopher.

00:25:57.520 --> 00:26:03.280
 The strong winning is the direction of progress.

00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:14.360
 So at the time I started graduate school, Conrad

00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:19.560
 Lorentz was about to get the Nobel Prize.

00:26:19.560 --> 00:26:25.440
 There was a whole current in science justifying militarism.

00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:37.600
 And Conrad Lorentz was the ideologist of the Racial Hygiene Institute justifying genocide

00:26:37.600 --> 00:26:39.040
 in Germany.

00:26:39.040 --> 00:26:48.400
 And that was really mainline genetic thinking in America and Germany in the 20s, 30s, and

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.400
 40s.

00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:57.840
 And the defeat of the Nazis made it embarrassing for the Americans to keep using those terms

00:26:57.840 --> 00:27:00.440
 of genocide and so on.

00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:13.560
 By the 60s, Lorentz was being rehabilitated and they were talking about his Nazi beginnings.

00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:28.120
 And my professors were all basically committed to the same genetic determinism.

00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:39.360
 You can see that tendency in Darwin, the way he considered that even botanical species

00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:47.480
 from England were going to displace native species in New Zealand, for example, the way

00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:52.080
 white people were displacing the brown people.

00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:58.040
 Just a real imperialist racist.

00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:06.560
 During the 19th century, a lot of the Christians were going on to Darwin's side along with

00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:08.160
 imperialism.

00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:20.360
 But the Protestant traditions, the same ones that supported the American Revolution, the

00:28:20.360 --> 00:28:29.120
 Great Awakening, had a lot of democratic impulses, equality, anti-slavery.

00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:40.560
 And in the 19th century, feminism and social equality and so on were part of the Protestant

00:28:40.560 --> 00:28:42.840
 or Christian revival.

00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:54.920
 And William Jennings' brand against Clarence Darrow was sort of caricatured the backwardness

00:28:54.920 --> 00:29:00.920
 of people who opposed Darwinism.

00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:16.440
 But the trial, the monkey trial, occurred at the height of the eugenics domination of

00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.720
 biological thinking.

00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:33.600
 And William Jennings' brand represented the public common persons and anti-racial thinking

00:29:33.600 --> 00:29:44.640
 with Clarence Darrow siding with the imperialists and racists and Brian siding with the common

00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:49.320
 person against racism and genocide.

00:29:49.320 --> 00:29:55.920
 And he didn't put it in the proper political language.

00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:05.080
 And so he's been ridiculed ever since as an ignorant person opposing progress.

00:30:05.080 --> 00:30:12.600
 But when you look at it in the context of who the geneticists really were, the people

00:30:12.600 --> 00:30:21.840
 who set up Hitler's genocide, and you see that Brian and the Christians were really

00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:25.040
 on the right side.

00:30:25.040 --> 00:30:28.480
 On the side for human rights, basically.

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.440
 Yeah, basically.

00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:41.800
 And Blake was at the center of all of those movements that influenced American history

00:30:41.800 --> 00:30:54.920
 and scientific thinking, philosophical thinking in that sort of underground, unofficial atmosphere.

00:30:54.920 --> 00:31:04.560
 Well, he certainly had an incredibly productive lifespan, and both in art.

00:31:04.560 --> 00:31:10.440
 I don't know if everybody out there has seen his paintings and etchings and drawings, but

00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.000
 they're certainly astounding to look at.

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:21.800
 And in addition to the artwork, he writes an immense amount of poetry that goes with

00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:23.960
 it and some of its prose too, I suppose.

00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:33.040
 But he's an amazingly accomplished person for somebody who never, from our point of

00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:36.120
 view these days, from somebody who never went to school.

00:31:36.120 --> 00:31:40.960
 Maybe you could comment a little bit on his education, such as it was.

00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:47.840
 Yeah, he went to a drawing school, I think, when he was 10, and then was apprenticed to

00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:51.120
 an engraver when he was 15.

00:31:51.120 --> 00:31:58.800
 And he started associating with the educated people through the engraver when he was an

00:31:58.800 --> 00:32:09.360
 apprentice and was writing poetry in his late teens and early 20s.

00:32:09.360 --> 00:32:23.120
 But as simply a craftsman, he was not really at the center of their movement, which was

00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:28.760
 educated writers who were getting published and having people illustrate their books.

00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:37.400
 So he knew these people and became friends with some of them, like William Godwin and

00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:47.840
 Mary Wollstonecraft, and Joseph Priestley, the oxygen guy, who was also the founder of

00:32:47.840 --> 00:32:54.640
 Unitarianism, or one of the founders.

00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:05.320
 These people were the radicals and progressives who were actually in danger of being imprisoned

00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:09.200
 or killed by the government for their opinions.

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:20.280
 Some of Blake's acquaintances were tried for treason in 1795.

00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:32.600
 The atmosphere among the people was such that all three of the first ones tried were acquitted

00:33:32.600 --> 00:33:40.400
 by the juries, and the government had 30 other people indicted.

00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:48.760
 They dropped the cases against them because it was getting so embarrassing because the

00:33:48.760 --> 00:33:56.680
 transcripts of the trials were being published, and it was hurting the government to lose

00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:04.120
 the cases and get all of this publicity for the anti-government view.

00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:09.760
 They had a list of 500 that they intended to prosecute if they had been winning with

00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:10.760
 the juries.

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:16.680
 And these people were all accused of treason against the king?

00:34:16.680 --> 00:34:30.240
 Yeah, high treason for belonging to the corresponding society, which stayed in touch with the revolutionaries

00:34:30.240 --> 00:34:33.720
 in America and France.

00:34:33.720 --> 00:34:45.320
 And it was treason to express opposition to a monarchy.

00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:53.400
 The law actually said it had to lead to armed rebellion, but the prosecutors were bending

00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:59.080
 the interpretation and saying that having a bad attitude was treasonous.

00:34:59.080 --> 00:35:06.480
 Yeah, a violent, rebellious attitude.

00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:13.800
 So it sounds like Blake was doing a lot of reading, and he was right in the thick of

00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:18.480
 whatever cultural movements were happening at that point.

00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.600
 Did he read science also?

00:35:20.600 --> 00:35:33.760
 Yeah, his parents were for a time attending the Swedenborgian church, and Swedenborg was

00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:44.880
 a real scientist who did some very 100-year premature nerve research.

00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:56.240
 So Blake knew a lot about nervous anatomy, biology in general, and knew all of the scientists

00:35:56.240 --> 00:36:10.080
 in London really, at least to the extent of reading things that the publishers had.

00:36:10.080 --> 00:36:20.840
 Because so many of them were radicals in opposing monarchy, he was friendly with them politically,

00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:31.880
 but he didn't accept their rationalistic, stylish way of thinking about reality.

00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:43.640
 Priestley had some ideas that Blake found scientifically justifiable, such as energy.

00:36:43.640 --> 00:36:53.520
 He and Priestley believed that matter was made up of energy, and Blake saw energy as

00:36:53.520 --> 00:36:57.680
 being the essence of human life.

00:36:57.680 --> 00:37:11.840
 He once referred to being so inspired that sparks were coming out of his fingers.

00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:26.000
 The main scientific mood of those deists and rationalists was that reason was where attention

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:38.040
 should be put rather than on experience, and that matter was some sort of an inert something,

00:37:38.040 --> 00:37:43.840
 like having intrinsic energy.

00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:54.640
 It was an idea about matter that a lot of people still have, that consciousness can't

00:37:54.640 --> 00:38:02.120
 possibly come out of matter because matter is something that has to be pushed around

00:38:02.120 --> 00:38:12.920
 by extrinsic forces like billiard balls.

00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:24.200
 So Blake was doing better thinking about the philosophy of science even than Joseph Priestley,

00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:32.800
 especially the worst mechanists.

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:49.200
 He not only was putting energy into matter, but he wanted to see experience as a part

00:38:49.200 --> 00:38:58.040
 of the nature of matter, that everything was following the same principles, whether it

00:38:58.040 --> 00:39:09.160
 was a piece of sand or a bug or a person.

00:39:09.160 --> 00:39:20.440
 The energy and interaction were the essential properties of matter and of life.

00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:31.320
 So it's a building aspect of matter that it actually gains complexity?

00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:35.240
 It gains what?

00:39:35.240 --> 00:39:36.240
 Complexity?

00:39:36.240 --> 00:39:42.640
 Oh yeah.

00:39:42.640 --> 00:39:56.800
 He sometimes called the principle of life or of knowing the poetic genius, and this

00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:06.200
 he saw as being a universal thing, that a plant or an animal, its form was expressing

00:40:06.200 --> 00:40:08.920
 its poetic genius.

00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:19.480
 So it was kind of a lively version of Spinoza's pantheism.

00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:33.280
 He didn't see any separation between matter, energy, and consciousness, and believed that

00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:43.200
 experience was, he even said experiment was the true form of knowing.

00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:58.600
 The experiencing person couldn't derive anything new from previously learned knowledge, and

00:40:58.600 --> 00:41:08.960
 this sort of offended the university educated people who believed that they had learned

00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:12.440
 something important at the university.

00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:21.200
 And Blake was saying that every moment we're experiencing something new that is changing

00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:24.600
 what we did know.

00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:35.520
 And so the canonical knowledge that you get at the university is always necessarily in

00:41:35.520 --> 00:41:37.280
 doubt.

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:46.160
 But Blake said you can't doubt from what you experience, you can only, you can doubt,

00:41:46.160 --> 00:41:50.960
 have to doubt everything that people tell you is true.

00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:59.280
 But experience can't be doubted because that's what it is.

00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.200
 So we have a question, email question just came in concerning Blake.

00:42:03.200 --> 00:42:09.680
 It's from Jose Gonzalez, and it says, in your William Blake article you briefly talk about

00:42:09.680 --> 00:42:13.720
 the difference between the craftsman and the academic.

00:42:13.720 --> 00:42:17.920
 Can you go into further detail describing the difference between them and the knowledge

00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.560
 acquired by each one?

00:42:20.560 --> 00:42:36.120
 Yeah, the craftsman, I studied etching and dry-plained printmaking for a while to experience

00:42:36.120 --> 00:42:39.880
 something of what he was doing.

00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:52.160
 And I saw that working on a copper plate with a needle and drawing with this very fine point

00:42:52.160 --> 00:43:02.920
 and making fine lines to build up shapes, after I'd been doing it for a few hours, the

00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:17.280
 sparkly colors of the refraction lines in the copper created a sort of iridescent quality.

00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:24.640
 And for hours after I'd been working on a plate, I would see that quality in everything

00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:27.760
 I looked at.

00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:38.480
 And Blake described that sort of experience, that you enliven your senses by working on

00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:46.120
 something and that extends to every new experience you have.

00:43:46.120 --> 00:43:53.280
 You're shaping it yourself while the new stuff is coming in.

00:43:53.280 --> 00:44:01.080
 And the person who works only on the level of knowledge, what the book and the professor

00:44:01.080 --> 00:44:11.440
 say, that builds up a similar set of reflexes in that person.

00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:17.360
 So they go out seeing the world in terms of what the book and the professor have said.

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:27.640
 So they see the world as talking concepts to them, rather than the craftsman feels the

00:44:27.640 --> 00:44:42.320
 world in a sensory newness corresponding to how he's been using his body and mind in working.

00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:52.440
 So he feels the world working back at him with those same properties that he has been

00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:53.440
 enlivening.

00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.440
 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:03.120
 There's another question you brought up, Blake's perception of the world when he was working.

00:45:03.120 --> 00:45:10.560
 And Todd Mudd asks via email, "The first biography of William Blake by Alexander Gilchrist makes

00:45:10.560 --> 00:45:15.520
 frequent mention of Blake's hallucinations and visions and emphasizes the importance

00:45:15.520 --> 00:45:18.760
 Blake and his wife placed on those visions.

00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:23.080
 According to the biography, when Blake wanted to draw a famous historical person, he would

00:45:23.080 --> 00:45:27.080
 act as if its ghost was sitting literally in front of him.

00:45:27.080 --> 00:45:30.900
 Sometimes the ghost image wouldn't come and Blake would have to wait until its visitation

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:33.600
 later in order to make the drawing.

00:45:33.600 --> 00:45:38.080
 I think it's more well known that Blake saw angels as a child and was reprimanded for

00:45:38.080 --> 00:45:40.080
 this revelation.

00:45:40.080 --> 00:45:45.840
 What do you make of Blake's visions?" is the question.

00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:58.040
 I think it's that way of thinking which kids normally have and it gets trained out of them.

00:45:58.040 --> 00:46:10.200
 You can't use metaphors and imagery too much if the world around you doesn't like novel

00:46:10.200 --> 00:46:11.200
 perceptions.

00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:18.120
 You mean you have to stick to the conventional images or else you'll be ostracized?

00:46:18.120 --> 00:46:31.800
 Yeah, and the body has this capacity to concretize to different extents its thoughts, but most

00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:42.600
 people get stuck in the concretizing the thoughts as words and they start to think of the word

00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:51.560
 as somehow the identity of the concept and the concept as the identity of what's in the

00:46:51.560 --> 00:46:54.600
 world.

00:46:54.600 --> 00:47:07.240
 If you see that your body can bring up these concrete images as you think, that gives you

00:47:07.240 --> 00:47:17.400
 a much more fluid attitude towards everything you learn.

00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:25.920
 You see right in front of you your thought process and the well-trained, well-educated

00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:42.400
 person sees words as their consciousness and the words tend to carry with them all of the

00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.960
 intentions of the educational system.

00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:57.840
 So that's the cage that people built in their minds that trap their whole being in this

00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.840
 world of words and concepts.

00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:06.520
 I see, so we just sort of get lost in our abstractions.

00:48:06.520 --> 00:48:10.920
 In someone else's abstractions, actually.

00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:19.600
 And extending those abstractions and Blake repeatedly emphasized that you can't get useful

00:48:19.600 --> 00:48:22.640
 knowledge from previously acquired knowledge.

00:48:22.640 --> 00:48:25.120
 I mean, words are so tied to images.

00:48:25.120 --> 00:48:32.480
 It seems like whenever I read something, it brings up an image of some kind and I would

00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:36.320
 think in a way they go hand in hand.

00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:44.040
 Yeah, it depends on really how you read and how your mind works.

00:48:44.040 --> 00:48:49.760
 For a while I was a major in psychology in graduate school.

00:48:49.760 --> 00:49:02.960
 One of my projects was to do a questionnaire and find creative people versus good students

00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:05.080
 in various departments.

00:49:05.080 --> 00:49:16.760
 And the people who were somewhat non-conformist and creative, productive, always turned out

00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:26.240
 to have a different way of thinking, even of dreaming.

00:49:26.240 --> 00:49:36.280
 The most conventional good student type tended to even have boring language-centered dreams

00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:48.800
 versus the richer, more complex-colored and interesting kind of dreaming and thinking.

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:50.680
 So they actually think in symbols.

00:49:50.680 --> 00:49:51.680
 Yeah.

00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:58.760
 Oh, go on if you were going to say something.

00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:00.520
 Were you going to go on about that?

00:50:00.520 --> 00:50:01.520
 No.

00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:02.520
 Okay.

00:50:02.520 --> 00:50:06.920
 Well, I was wondering about, I mean, I think the idea of the image is so interesting.

00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:12.320
 You mentioned in another show about synectics, I think it was called.

00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:13.320
 Synectics.

00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.320
 Synectic, thank you.

00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:18.520
 I spelled it wrong.

00:50:18.520 --> 00:50:20.600
 Well, why don't you explain what that was?

00:50:20.600 --> 00:50:25.040
 And they used images or metaphors for solving problems, is that right?

00:50:25.040 --> 00:50:27.720
 Which reminds me of Blake somehow.

00:50:27.720 --> 00:50:36.400
 Yeah, the original Synectics book by W. J. J. Gordon was one I was talking about.

00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:41.680
 It has since evolved into some kind of other business.

00:50:41.680 --> 00:50:48.040
 But he, in the 50s, developed this group.

00:50:48.040 --> 00:50:54.840
 First they were trying to understand the creative process in art.

00:50:54.840 --> 00:51:05.520
 And they realized that there was no objective way to prove what was better in the art.

00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:13.600
 So they went to engineering and things that could have a concrete outcome that they could

00:51:13.600 --> 00:51:14.960
 sell.

00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:21.040
 And eventually it turned into working, just solving corporation problems.

00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:33.200
 But while they were developing the technique to understand how the brain is creative, they

00:51:33.200 --> 00:51:40.280
 developed these different ways of using imagery and body feeling, putting yourself into the

00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:49.520
 problem, imagining the problem in different perspectives.

00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:53.160
 And that helped people think out of the box, as they say.

00:51:53.160 --> 00:51:54.160
 Yeah.

00:51:54.160 --> 00:51:55.160
 Yeah.

00:51:55.160 --> 00:52:00.000
 And I was also curious, in the subject of visions and Blake, I guess he saw them his

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.000
 whole life.

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:07.000
 And he definitely made good use of them in his artwork.

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:16.760
 And how do you, or do you relate that at all to Carl Jung and his basically, his, I don't

00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:22.720
 know if you call it popularizing, but his, he seemed to bring to the public's attention

00:52:22.720 --> 00:52:25.920
 the fact that those images are available to all of us.

00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:33.520
 And they're in fact, according to his theory, indicative of a basically a whole other level

00:52:33.520 --> 00:52:39.400
 of mental activity, which you call the unconscious, that's going on within all of us all the time

00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:42.520
 and driving much of what we do, even though we're not aware of it.

00:52:42.520 --> 00:52:45.960
 And do you relate that to Blake at all?

00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:47.400
 Oh, sure.

00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:59.560
 I just think Jung didn't, he was sort of on the fringes of Freudian thinking, but still

00:52:59.560 --> 00:53:08.280
 I think he was tied to the same culture that affected Freud.

00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:15.520
 And Wilhelm Wright, even though he didn't talk about images, I think was closer to Blake

00:53:15.520 --> 00:53:22.320
 in attitude than any of the people in that psychoanalytic culture.

00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:23.320
 I see.

00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:29.880
 So how would you rate this, relate the psychoanalytic culture to Blake?

00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:33.360
 It sounds like you're thinking they're off base somewhat.

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:45.800
 Well, Freud with his superego and id, the id had to be repressed to form a rational

00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:47.520
 ego.

00:53:47.520 --> 00:54:03.360
 And Wilhelm Wright pointed out that the superego included the Nazis and other absolutely undesirable

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:13.880
 oppressors and that the id really had most of what was good in humanity and shouldn't

00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.080
 be repressed.

00:54:16.080 --> 00:54:26.680
 And so Wright had sex political organizations and got in all kinds of trouble in Europe

00:54:26.680 --> 00:54:35.600
 by saying that people should be sexually free and combining that with socialistic political

00:54:35.600 --> 00:54:37.440
 ideas.

00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:47.000
 And the sexual thing came out of Freudianism, but Freud pleased the authorities by saying

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:54.080
 you must repress it and accept authority.

00:54:54.080 --> 00:55:07.560
 And Blake, according to some of his biographers, who was sexually a very advanced thinker,

00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:17.280
 didn't believe that women should be the property of their husbands and such.

00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:19.560
 And where would you fit Jung into all that?

00:55:19.560 --> 00:55:25.240
 Because he disagreed pretty violently with Freud about a lot of things.

00:55:25.240 --> 00:55:38.440
 Yeah, I think his emphasis on imagery is very good, but he tried to stereotype it into sort

00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:42.640
 of perpetual personality types.

00:55:42.640 --> 00:55:53.560
 And Blake would have said that we have we and worms and everybody has certain properties,

00:55:53.560 --> 00:55:57.720
 but we're always going someplace new.

00:55:57.720 --> 00:56:07.680
 That you can't say that a person is bound to any one of these personality types.

00:56:07.680 --> 00:56:08.960
 I see.

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:16.880
 So he didn't want to stereotype any living thing, it sounds like.

00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:18.040
 Yeah.

00:56:18.040 --> 00:56:29.040
 Each thing is different in its unique species and individual personality.

00:56:29.040 --> 00:56:41.480
 But within that species and form, every individual is always becoming something new.

00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:53.880
 And I think a lot of his epistemology, that basing experience, putting experience as the

00:56:53.880 --> 00:57:03.800
 basis of all knowledge, I think that grew directly out of his thinking about evolution

00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:13.120
 and reading Erasmus Darwin's thinking about evolution.

00:57:13.120 --> 00:57:25.320
 Blake saw that each thing, the lamb and the tiger, each one had its own character or genius.

00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:42.320
 But each one was also an individual experiencing and has to be free to be itself and to, like

00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:55.360
 the human, has to always be exploring, getting new sensory information.

00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:06.640
 And how does the image, the idea of the image in Blake was so amazing with creating these

00:58:06.640 --> 00:58:15.440
 fantastic and yet very specific images and saying basically how he felt the world worked,

00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:27.800
 how does that all relate to his ideas about science?

00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:45.440
 I think Wilhelm Reich, as thinking about science, he said that the people who identify with

00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:57.400
 what Freud called the super-ego, they want to put all life in spiritual things and that

00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:04.280
 makes them see the body as a worthless lump.

00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:18.760
 And matter versus spirit is an absolute contradiction in that Freudian thinking that Wilhelm Reich

00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:30.280
 emphasized over and over that matter itself is the source of experience and knowledge

00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:38.400
 and it's a deformation of personality that makes people think about matter as something

00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:44.480
 else, something outside of consciousness and knowledge.

00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:51.760
 The Kantian idea that the thing in itself is unknowable, where Blake and Reich would

00:59:51.760 --> 01:00:08.000
 say that the genius of matter is what knows.

01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:14.720
 It was about resonance and interaction and such.

01:00:14.720 --> 01:00:25.560
 Electricity was a great interest in the whole culture, not just in so-called sciences, but

01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:37.320
 the idea of electrical interactions entered into common thinking so that people were getting

01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:46.040
 so-called medical treatments by getting shocked with mild electrical current.

01:00:46.040 --> 01:00:59.840
 So this idea of energy as part of life, some places Blake said there's no body distinct

01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:09.400
 from the soul, but other places he identified the body with energy.

01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:18.040
 What he was denying was that there is this inert nature behind what we experience as

01:01:18.040 --> 01:01:21.160
 nature.

01:01:21.160 --> 01:01:30.840
 There is no such thing as a thing in itself which is this inert, passive matter.

01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:35.000
 He's saying it's all energy, not inert.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:36.000
 Yeah.

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:47.240
 The substance out of which we and the universe are made is something which you can call "genius"

01:01:47.240 --> 01:01:55.200
 or "energy" or "matter" if you don't get the wrong understanding of what matter means.

01:01:55.200 --> 01:01:56.200
 I see.

01:01:56.200 --> 01:02:03.880
 And a lot of his paintings and drawings, he has basically put the human into the spirit.

01:02:03.880 --> 01:02:11.720
 He represents a lot of the spiritual ideas with human figures.

01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:13.000
 Yeah.

01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:18.280
 But that's not...

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:21.720
 No, go ahead, sorry.

01:02:21.720 --> 01:02:30.440
 It was explicit in saying that you can see the human, if your eyes are properly open,

01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:40.300
 you can see the human existing in everything, meaning that you aren't degrading something

01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:43.360
 into just matter.

01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:45.240
 I see.

01:02:45.240 --> 01:02:51.600
 And practicing sort of an elitism of living things.

01:02:51.600 --> 01:02:54.000
 Yeah.

01:02:54.000 --> 01:03:10.240
 And the human, he didn't limit it to just people, even though he, in talking about Jesus,

01:03:10.240 --> 01:03:25.000
 sometimes would say that Jesus was only a man, but he was the best man, the most alive

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.240
 or the most conscious.

01:03:29.240 --> 01:03:35.720
 I have to say at this point that it's 5.03 and you're listening to WMRW LP Warren and

01:03:35.720 --> 01:03:37.600
 you're listening to Politics and Science.

01:03:37.600 --> 01:03:41.800
 I'm John Barkas and my guest today is Dr. Ray Peat.

01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:47.240
 He's a biologist and a physiologist from Eugene, Oregon.

01:03:47.240 --> 01:03:51.560
 And we're very grateful that he's on the show today helping us out with our fundraiser.

01:03:51.560 --> 01:03:57.320
 If you like shows like this or if you like music or if you like independent media, please

01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:04.880
 consider going to WMRW.org and making a donation to support this little community radio station

01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:12.400
 that does try to do alternative news and alternative reporting on issues like we're talking about

01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:13.400
 today.

01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:14.400
 Let's see.

01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:20.560
 So, and if people want to call in, I think it's appropriate now if you have questions

01:04:20.560 --> 01:04:28.520
 about Blake and his role in the world and how it relates to science.

01:04:28.520 --> 01:04:33.320
 We certainly welcome your calls and we also welcome calls about any other thing you'd

01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:36.720
 like to talk about.

01:04:36.720 --> 01:04:42.440
 So let me see here what I have.

01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:45.560
 I wanted to read a quote from Blake.

01:04:45.560 --> 01:04:51.840
 It's very short off of one of his plates that he did his engravings and it's from "There

01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:54.880
 is no natural religion."

01:04:54.880 --> 01:05:02.680
 And it's just simply this, "Therefore God becomes as we are that we may be as he is."

01:05:02.680 --> 01:05:10.480
 And that seems like a very actually dangerous thing to say when he made that in a way because

01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:12.440
 he's bringing God down.

01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:16.120
 He's saying God in a way is created by us.

01:05:16.120 --> 01:05:25.160
 Well, Spinoza said it in a much more boring way.

01:05:25.160 --> 01:05:36.720
 Spinoza was trying to get away from already at that time the concretizing matter in a

01:05:36.720 --> 01:05:47.240
 way that was justifying ways of thinking and ways of being in society.

01:05:47.240 --> 01:06:02.080
 And when you separate spirit from matter, you tend to metaphorically separate merely

01:06:02.080 --> 01:06:08.080
 working people from educated and powerful people.

01:06:08.080 --> 01:06:18.600
 There's a tendency that you can see a thousand years ago the philosophers, mostly Jewish

01:06:18.600 --> 01:06:27.680
 and Arabic or Islamic philosophers were thinking about these issues.

01:06:27.680 --> 01:06:36.800
 The same thing that Aristotle differed from Plato on Aristotle saw matter as creative

01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:41.520
 and formative, containing the formative principle in itself.

01:06:41.520 --> 01:06:53.440
 And a lot of the medieval philosophers were pretty clear in their thoughts on what it

01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:58.320
 means to define matter in one way or another.

01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:07.880
 And Plato by putting knowledge in a world of forms relegated human life to the material

01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:13.680
 world which was only temporal and not real.

01:07:13.680 --> 01:07:29.720
 And people like Blake realize still that that's where the important argument is.

01:07:29.720 --> 01:07:41.960
 Politics and medical so-called science, physics, all of these take on an ideological attitude

01:07:41.960 --> 01:07:49.280
 in medicine, its genetics and the cell membrane.

01:07:49.280 --> 01:08:01.720
 In physics, it's currently a tendency to mystify the whole thing into completely non-experiential

01:08:01.720 --> 01:08:13.880
 quantum mechanical theories of mysterious interactions that can't have any understandable

01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:18.080
 base in reality, but it comes out of their calculations.

01:08:18.080 --> 01:08:20.760
 So it's all mathematical modeling.

01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:21.760
 Yeah.

01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:31.160
 And that's exactly why Blake said that when you reason, which he spelled U-R-I-Z-E-N,

01:08:31.160 --> 01:08:39.480
 when your reason is separated from the body and emotions and senses, it becomes tyrannical

01:08:39.480 --> 01:08:42.960
 and stupid.

01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:52.640
 He was referring to the chemists and physicists equivalent of his time who were letting the

01:08:52.640 --> 01:09:04.800
 deist idea of God and matter get into their thinking about scientific issues.

01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:12.400
 I'd like to talk more about that, but what I've noticed when I looked up Blake and a

01:09:12.400 --> 01:09:18.280
 few books about him is that he was being referred to as a Platonist.

01:09:18.280 --> 01:09:20.480
 Is there any accounting for that?

01:09:20.480 --> 01:09:33.960
 Yeah, many of the critical comments that I saw when I was starting to study him, they

01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:43.760
 were complete idiots like the people that edited the book that I ran across in my world

01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:46.400
 literature course.

01:09:46.400 --> 01:09:50.880
 They simply misunderstood anything of his they read.

01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:58.920
 They thought it was nice to include some poems about lambs and tigers and little kids in

01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:09.400
 their anthology, but they totally misinterpreted where Blake was using the word ironically.

01:10:09.400 --> 01:10:11.920
 They took it literally.

01:10:11.920 --> 01:10:20.720
 That's pretty much the way Blake criticism went until around 1950.

01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:25.760
 Are you familiar with one of the paperbacks I have which seems pretty good, it's by Kathleen

01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:26.760
 Rain?

01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:30.960
 Yeah, she was a pretty good one.

01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:35.560
 It's called William Blake, appropriately.

01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:39.520
 You referred to the deists, were they part of the Enlightenment movement?

01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:42.120
 Oh yeah.

01:10:42.120 --> 01:10:45.480
 Could you tell us about that a little bit?

01:10:45.480 --> 01:10:56.680
 They wanted to get divine right of kings, they wanted to displace monarchy and social

01:10:56.680 --> 01:11:04.320
 hierarchy and so they kicked God out of the world and said he's set it running and no

01:11:04.320 --> 01:11:17.960
 longer is intervening because the kings were claiming that they were God's agents.

01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:27.960
 The whole attitude puts the masses of people and animals and matter all into the same lump

01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:38.560
 and the degree of closeness to the monarchy was the same as the degree of closeness to

01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:42.080
 divinity.

01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:50.960
 The monarchy loved to torture and slaughter people for their insults.

01:11:50.960 --> 01:12:03.320
 It was really an absolute and pretty disgusting social system right down into the 19th century.

01:12:03.320 --> 01:12:08.680
 They were still slaughtering people for minor offenses.

01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:13.240
 So the deists basically believed in God but they thought he had just set the whole thing

01:12:13.240 --> 01:12:15.120
 up and then he stepped out.

01:12:15.120 --> 01:12:19.440
 Yeah, and they were inviting the king to step out too.

01:12:19.440 --> 01:12:25.400
 I see, but he had given, probably in their minds I'm guessing, they'd given man dominion

01:12:25.400 --> 01:12:27.400
 over everything?

01:12:27.400 --> 01:12:29.880
 Yeah.

01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:36.640
 And did Blaketon entirely disagree with all of the Enlightenment movement?

01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:37.640
 Did he?

01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:51.000
 Oh no, everything that was towards liberation and realization of the good principles of

01:12:51.000 --> 01:13:01.000
 justice and knowledge and good things, he supported them.

01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:12.000
 He supported the revolutionaries in France and America and even after Edmund Burke was

01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:20.280
 turning against the French Revolution because he saw it was a threat to his class, not just

01:13:20.280 --> 01:13:32.200
 the monarchy, and Blake and Pompey and Joseph Priestley, some of them stayed supportive

01:13:32.200 --> 01:13:35.880
 of the French Revolution.

01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:46.680
 But a lot of the deists were rationalists who wanted to protect their property and take

01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:54.040
 on the role of the monarch after they kicked out the monarch.

01:13:54.040 --> 01:14:06.360
 So deism was fine for justifying a new kind of tyranny and so Blake was analyzing that

01:14:06.360 --> 01:14:15.480
 process of how reason justifies, once it throws off an old tyranny, it becomes a tyrant in

01:14:15.480 --> 01:14:17.160
 its place.

01:14:17.160 --> 01:14:28.360
 And I don't know how closely connected Blake still was with Tom Paine following Paine's

01:14:28.360 --> 01:14:30.720
 imprisonment in France.

01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:42.120
 I suspect that George Washington actually was manipulating in a counter-revolutionary

01:14:42.120 --> 01:14:43.120
 way.

01:14:43.120 --> 01:14:51.200
 I don't know of any facts to support it, but Paine's experience in prison was that Washington

01:14:51.200 --> 01:15:01.680
 and his ambassadors were explicitly ignoring the fact that Paine was in prison, scheduled

01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:05.360
 to be executed.

01:15:05.360 --> 01:15:13.480
 Paine got really annoyed with Washington and after he got out of prison he wrote a long

01:15:13.480 --> 01:15:21.160
 letter that I think everyone interested in American history should read, showing that

01:15:21.160 --> 01:15:33.560
 already by '95 George Washington was acting pretty much like George Bush or George III,

01:15:33.560 --> 01:15:40.480
 trying to be a tyrant and very hypocritical and corrupt.

01:15:40.480 --> 01:15:47.240
 And I think Paine sort of ended up very poor in America and ostracized.

01:15:47.240 --> 01:16:00.920
 Yeah, although he was a deist that was considered by his opponents manipulated to equal atheism

01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:11.160
 and Theodore Roosevelt famously referred to him as a dirty little atheist.

01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:20.440
 And still Blake defended him as not being an atheist.

01:16:20.440 --> 01:16:30.480
 Blake didn't go along with deism, but he fully supported Tom Paine and he was the one that

01:16:30.480 --> 01:16:38.360
 advised him to get out of England and go to France to avoid being tried and executed for

01:16:38.360 --> 01:16:45.600
 his anti-monarchy opinion.

01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:50.160
 He got out in time to avoid being tried.

01:16:50.160 --> 01:16:58.360
 I think the government went along letting him get out of the country so that they could

01:16:58.360 --> 01:17:09.080
 try him in absentia and convict him, otherwise he would have been in court eloquently explaining.

01:17:09.080 --> 01:17:10.480
 That makes sense, yeah.

01:17:10.480 --> 01:17:14.720
 And William Blake helped him escape, I believe, right?

01:17:14.720 --> 01:17:15.920
 Yeah.

01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:18.440
 And then he went to France and was arrested?

01:17:18.440 --> 01:17:29.200
 Yeah, first he was elected a member of the convention of parliament, even though he couldn't

01:17:29.200 --> 01:17:36.880
 speak French, he was so famous internationally that he was made a French citizen and member

01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:39.680
 of the government.

01:17:39.680 --> 01:17:52.920
 But then the government passed a rule that foreigners couldn't be citizens and foreigners

01:17:52.920 --> 01:18:05.000
 were automatically treated as agents of the enemy and he was imprisoned and Washington

01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:09.920
 wouldn't do anything to get him out.

01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:20.760
 Some accident prevented his being executed, but finally Robespierre was executed himself

01:18:20.760 --> 01:18:25.120
 and the prisoners were released.

01:18:25.120 --> 01:18:26.760
 Wow.

01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:33.200
 Well, you know, Blake was tried for sedition and treason.

01:18:33.200 --> 01:18:34.200
 That's right.

01:18:34.200 --> 01:18:35.200
 Go ahead.

01:18:35.200 --> 01:18:48.080
 His own view, according to Gilchrist, was that the government had arranged to have this

01:18:48.080 --> 01:19:03.920
 soldier come and make a big drunk riot in his yard to incriminate him.

01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:10.480
 That was just a hearsay about Blake's opinion, but it was set up.

01:19:10.480 --> 01:19:21.800
 But the fact was that he got angry and even though the soldier was much bigger, Blake

01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:29.360
 got furious and frightened the soldier and marched him down the street to the tavern.

01:19:29.360 --> 01:19:42.160
 And the soldier got his buddy to tell the officer that Blake had been damning the king

01:19:42.160 --> 01:19:52.400
 and developed a story gradually that he had said he hoped Bonaparte would invade and so

01:19:52.400 --> 01:19:55.120
 on.

01:19:55.120 --> 01:20:06.600
 So he went to trial, but everyone that knew him said that they couldn't imagine that a

01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:15.080
 peaceful Mr. Blake could have acted so ferociously and said such things.

01:20:15.080 --> 01:20:18.920
 So he was acquitted.

01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:25.400
 And according to what I was reading, he was quite shaken by that and changed his tactics

01:20:25.400 --> 01:20:26.880
 a little bit.

01:20:26.880 --> 01:20:27.880
 Yeah.

01:20:27.880 --> 01:20:39.800
 If they had looked in his papers, they would have for sure executed him.

01:20:39.800 --> 01:20:44.800
 I think partly it was government disorganization.

01:20:44.800 --> 01:20:51.240
 The judge, I think in that case, was himself a former radical.

01:20:51.240 --> 01:20:59.440
 I don't know whether he had any influence, but there was such a mood against the king

01:20:59.440 --> 01:21:03.600
 that by that time it was hard to convict people.

01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:04.600
 Yeah.

01:21:04.600 --> 01:21:07.480
 Well, Ray, is there anything...

01:21:07.480 --> 01:21:13.400
 I have some questions about health issues that people have sent in and we could go to

01:21:13.400 --> 01:21:14.400
 those.

01:21:14.400 --> 01:21:17.280
 Is there anything coming up you'd like to do about Blake's role in science?

01:21:17.280 --> 01:21:18.280
 Oh, no.

01:21:18.280 --> 01:21:19.280
 No.

01:21:19.280 --> 01:21:20.280
 Okay.

01:21:20.280 --> 01:21:21.280
 All right.

01:21:21.280 --> 01:21:22.280
 Let's move on.

01:21:22.280 --> 01:21:28.800
 Then we're talking to Dr. Raymond Peat here at WMRLP Warren, and we're going to switch

01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:32.240
 now to his role as a physiologist.

01:21:32.240 --> 01:21:36.240
 And I'm getting a phone call right now, but I'm going to tell that person that the way

01:21:36.240 --> 01:21:45.160
 to call into this talk show is to call my Skype number, which is 802-526-2326.

01:21:45.160 --> 01:21:46.160
 That's 802-526-2326.

01:21:46.160 --> 01:21:56.680
 Sorry, I didn't give that out earlier, and I will endeavor to give it out again.

01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.440
 So one question is about the ketone diet.

01:21:59.440 --> 01:22:04.200
 It's popular these days and appears to achieve impressive weight loss results.

01:22:04.200 --> 01:22:09.600
 What's your opinion on this burning off of stored fat and how it affects your overall

01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:11.720
 health?

01:22:11.720 --> 01:22:18.920
 It's very stressful to get in that condition for most people.

01:22:18.920 --> 01:22:28.800
 Extreme hypoglycemia is needed, and that typically turns on lots of cortisol production, and

01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:34.120
 that has many undesirable consequences.

01:22:34.120 --> 01:22:42.520
 But the worst thing is that almost everyone, the older you are, the more polyunsaturated

01:22:42.520 --> 01:22:54.160
 fats you have built into your tissue, and those being mobilized and oxidized damage

01:22:54.160 --> 01:22:56.240
 practically everything.

01:22:56.240 --> 01:23:07.480
 They interfere with mitochondrial respiration, but they also break down and cause oxidative

01:23:07.480 --> 01:23:14.920
 damage to everything outside as well as inside the mitochondria.

01:23:14.920 --> 01:23:24.520
 So for a 10-year-old, it's not so damaging because their tissues are usually not so loaded

01:23:24.520 --> 01:23:33.480
 with polyunsaturated fats, but for a 30- or 40-year-old, it can be really harmful.

01:23:33.480 --> 01:23:35.480
 Okay.

01:23:35.480 --> 01:23:41.000
 All right.

01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:46.320
 Somebody used the metaphor of burning fats is like a slow-burning log and burning sugars

01:23:46.320 --> 01:23:51.320
 is like burning kindling.

01:23:51.320 --> 01:23:55.080
 What's your take on that metaphor?

01:23:55.080 --> 01:23:58.080
 With a good hot fire, you don't get any smoke.

01:23:58.080 --> 01:24:03.480
 Burning unsaturated fats, you get very toxic smoke.

01:24:03.480 --> 01:24:13.040
 And cigarette smoke contains acrolein, for example, which can form acrylamide and other

01:24:13.040 --> 01:24:14.560
 toxins.

01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:23.320
 But the polyunsaturated fats break down into these toxins similar to what you get in smoke.

01:24:23.320 --> 01:24:25.320
 So it's a good metaphor.

01:24:25.320 --> 01:24:30.920
 You don't want a slow, smoky, toxic fire.

01:24:30.920 --> 01:24:32.320
 Okay.

01:24:32.320 --> 01:24:35.840
 Heart arrhythmias, what is it?

01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:38.040
 And is it AFib and tachycardia?

01:24:38.040 --> 01:24:41.320
 Does that all fit into that label?

01:24:41.320 --> 01:24:47.440
 And what are the causes and solutions?

01:24:47.440 --> 01:24:54.760
 One of the recognized things associated with it is that the blood is usually more viscous

01:24:54.760 --> 01:25:03.360
 than normal, and that makes it slower to refill after the stroke.

01:25:03.360 --> 01:25:11.200
 And just that viscosity and discrepancy between the pressure going out and the pressure coming

01:25:11.200 --> 01:25:23.240
 in tends to give complex signals to the heart, and that can contribute if the heart is sensitive

01:25:23.240 --> 01:25:27.640
 to new stimulation.

01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:35.680
 It can produce a premature contraction, or it can cause a delayed contraction if the

01:25:35.680 --> 01:25:38.120
 heart is less sensitive.

01:25:38.120 --> 01:25:46.680
 And the things that you have been eating chronically, as well as your hormonal balance, affect the

01:25:46.680 --> 01:25:58.440
 sensitivity of the heart to stimulation of either the volume of blood or nerve impulses.

01:25:58.440 --> 01:26:06.280
 And the nerve impulses are affected especially by the balance of sympathetic and parasympathetic

01:26:06.280 --> 01:26:16.600
 nerves and the opposing steroids such as estrogen versus progesterone and testosterone.

01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:25.880
 And high estrogen increases the sensitivity and likelihood to contract.

01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:35.400
 Progesterone desensitizes the heart so that it can build up a bigger charge of blood,

01:26:35.400 --> 01:26:43.120
 have a bigger stroke before it fires and contracts.

01:26:43.120 --> 01:26:52.800
 Too much of the adrenergic side will make it oversensitive and tend to have premature

01:26:52.800 --> 01:26:53.800
 contractions.

01:26:53.800 --> 01:27:01.640
 Too much of the cholinergic side can simply stop the heart and kill you.

01:27:01.640 --> 01:27:06.960
 Okay, that's...

01:27:06.960 --> 01:27:14.400
 So the thyroid sensitizes you to the sympathetic side.

01:27:14.400 --> 01:27:21.840
 And so if you take thyroid suddenly, when you've been hypothyroid, then you can get

01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:28.480
 tachycardia and a person's liver governs the way the thyroid is working.

01:27:28.480 --> 01:27:40.240
 And so a person with liver problems can have periodic episodes of tachycardia when the

01:27:40.240 --> 01:27:48.720
 thyroid suddenly becomes active against a background of extremely high adrenaline.

01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:54.960
 Combinations of high estrogen and low thyroid are very dangerous for the heart.

01:27:54.960 --> 01:28:03.320
 It sounds, even if you're trying to adjust it, it sounds very difficult to get it right.

01:28:03.320 --> 01:28:13.800
 Well if you do things gradually, and estrogen has to be kept under control because as well

01:28:13.800 --> 01:28:24.840
 as exciting nerves and contractions, it increases the tendency to clot and clotting tends to

01:28:24.840 --> 01:28:33.440
 go with the high blood viscosity and arrhythmia tendency.

01:28:33.440 --> 01:28:42.040
 So getting your estrogen-progesterone balance is probably the basic thing to work on since

01:28:42.040 --> 01:28:50.080
 progesterone has a sort of digitalis-like effect of increasing the stroke volume, making

01:28:50.080 --> 01:28:56.160
 the heart work more efficiently with fewer beats.

01:28:56.160 --> 01:29:02.440
 Somebody just wrote in, "I'm a bit confused about Ray's statements about modern quantum

01:29:02.440 --> 01:29:04.400
 physics.

01:29:04.400 --> 01:29:08.520
 The mathematical formalism makes very well proven statistical predictions about many

01:29:08.520 --> 01:29:12.520
 phenomena, for example the double slit experiment.

01:29:12.520 --> 01:29:15.920
 The problem is, however, that some people think it's a complete theory of everything

01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:20.800
 and draw arbitrary conclusions from this formalism about the nature of the universe, adding an

01:29:20.800 --> 01:29:22.720
 element of randomness.

01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:26.520
 So I think it is important to distinguish between the mathematical formalism and the

01:29:26.520 --> 01:29:32.280
 more or less deceptive interpretation of Heisenberg and others."

01:29:32.280 --> 01:29:39.760
 And it's important, I think, to look around and see the many different interpretations

01:29:39.760 --> 01:29:48.120
 of that slit experiment, and it's so convincing.

01:29:48.120 --> 01:29:54.800
 The prediction is there, but the interpretation of what the prediction means is the whole

01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:57.080
 thing.

01:29:57.080 --> 01:30:04.040
 You can find a lot of very interesting and convincing alternative interpretations, and

01:30:04.040 --> 01:30:13.400
 I would say the problem wouldn't exist except for Einstein and people of his generation

01:30:13.400 --> 01:30:20.120
 early in the century making a very mistaken basic assumption about the nature of matter,

01:30:20.120 --> 01:30:31.760
 which is that matter is entirely local, atomic, has no field properties extending electrically

01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:35.760
 beyond individual atomic interactions.

01:30:35.760 --> 01:30:50.400
 And from that peculiar atomic granular nature of matter that they believed absolutely, then

01:30:50.400 --> 01:30:57.320
 to produce the photoelectric effect, light also had to be granular to act locally to

01:30:57.320 --> 01:31:02.480
 displace one electron per photon.

01:31:02.480 --> 01:31:10.360
 So it's purely derived from the assumptions that they so firmly believed, which just 15

01:31:10.360 --> 01:31:14.480
 years later turned out absolutely not to be true.

01:31:14.480 --> 01:31:28.640
 The quantum thing of non-locality, Michael Polanyi proposed an adsorption isotherm that

01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:38.880
 was very simple, very empirical, and was not compatible with Einstein's granular theory

01:31:38.880 --> 01:31:41.000
 of matter.

01:31:41.000 --> 01:31:51.600
 But through the '20s, Polanyi's work went off in different directions to crystals and

01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:57.280
 metal working, crystal bending, breaking energy, and so on.

01:31:57.280 --> 01:32:08.240
 Each experiment he did tended to indicate a non-local nature of the energy in solid

01:32:08.240 --> 01:32:11.920
 state metals and crystals.

01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:23.440
 And following that, by 1930, there was this new long-range interpretation of the energy

01:32:23.440 --> 01:32:25.760
 in matter.

01:32:25.760 --> 01:32:38.880
 And with matter having a wave-like behavior, then you can explain photoelectric processes

01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:47.840
 in terms of one wave interacting with another wave, a sort of tuning of waves in light and

01:32:47.840 --> 01:32:54.040
 matter to each other, rather than having to imagine a particular granular nature of light

01:32:54.040 --> 01:33:03.600
 to match your granular nature of metal that you believed in.

01:33:03.600 --> 01:33:14.200
 So the assumptions are so important to the quantum people that they don't like these

01:33:14.200 --> 01:33:26.200
 critics to say that the assumptions have to be reexamined, but what they do is to say

01:33:26.200 --> 01:33:29.200
 the critics can't play in their game.

01:33:29.200 --> 01:33:31.640
 It's their ball.

01:33:31.640 --> 01:33:37.680
 Yeah, Michael Polanyi, he was ridiculed by them, wasn't he?

01:33:37.680 --> 01:33:38.680
 Yeah.

01:33:38.680 --> 01:33:49.600
 And he was so affected by that reaction of the established physicists that even when

01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:56.760
 he became a physics professor, he wouldn't teach his students the true Polanyi isotherm.

01:33:56.760 --> 01:34:00.760
 He taught the stupid Langmuir monolayer isotherm.

01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:05.000
 Yeah, go on, Ray.

01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:19.320
 I was going to talk more about that, but go ahead.

01:34:19.320 --> 01:34:20.320
 Okay.

01:34:20.320 --> 01:34:21.320
 You can if you want.

01:34:21.320 --> 01:34:24.320
 I didn't mean to interrupt.

01:34:24.320 --> 01:34:26.080
 The phone is breaking up.

01:34:26.080 --> 01:34:28.240
 Oh, it is?

01:34:28.240 --> 01:34:30.080
 You can't hear me well?

01:34:30.080 --> 01:34:32.760
 I can't understand what you're saying at all.

01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:35.440
 Okay, let's just see if it recovers.

01:34:35.440 --> 01:34:37.960
 Is it any better now?

01:34:37.960 --> 01:34:42.960
 No, I'll call you right back, Ray.

01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:45.280
 I still can't understand anything.

01:34:45.280 --> 01:34:47.040
 It's just terrible.

01:34:47.040 --> 01:34:48.040
 Let's hang up.

01:34:48.040 --> 01:34:49.960
 Can you understand that?

01:34:49.960 --> 01:34:51.680
 I'll call you back.

01:34:51.680 --> 01:34:53.960
 Oh, okay.

01:34:53.960 --> 01:34:56.440
 Yeah, bye.

01:34:56.440 --> 01:35:06.080
 All right, you're listening to WMRW LP Warren, and we'll get our guest, Dr. Raven Peat, back

01:35:06.080 --> 01:35:12.120
 on the line as soon as I figure out how to find him.

01:35:12.120 --> 01:35:14.600
 Thanks to people who have donated while the show's been going on.

01:35:14.600 --> 01:35:16.720
 Really appreciate that.

01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:19.760
 You can do that also if you'd like at WMRW.org.

01:35:19.760 --> 01:35:20.760
 Hello?

01:35:20.760 --> 01:35:21.760
 Hello, Ray.

01:35:21.760 --> 01:35:22.760
 You're on the air.

01:35:22.760 --> 01:35:27.760
 Oh, yeah, you're clear now.

01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:28.760
 Oh, good.

01:35:28.760 --> 01:35:29.760
 All right.

01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:30.760
 Got our wires crossed there.

01:35:30.760 --> 01:35:38.360
 It must have been the Heisenberg principle getting in the way.

01:35:38.360 --> 01:35:46.920
 So back to health issues, unless you wanted to say something else about that question.

01:35:46.920 --> 01:35:55.600
 I was just going to give an example of how the establishment excludes people who talk

01:35:55.600 --> 01:35:58.560
 about evidence too much.

01:35:58.560 --> 01:36:06.800
 Halton Arp wrote a book, Seeing Red, which describes his experience.

01:36:06.800 --> 01:36:15.200
 He was the person who, I guess about 15 or 20 years ago, was making photographs showing

01:36:15.200 --> 01:36:26.400
 galaxies with stringers of matter between them, showing a connectedness of substance,

01:36:26.400 --> 01:36:34.480
 but the galaxies had a very great redshift difference, showing that they should be moving

01:36:34.480 --> 01:36:39.280
 at extremely different velocities even though they were connected.

01:36:39.280 --> 01:36:48.680
 He made quite a few of those pictures, and he was denied use of the telescopes because

01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:57.320
 the pictures so strongly made fun of the belief in the expanding universe explanation for

01:36:57.320 --> 01:36:58.320
 the redshift.

01:36:58.320 --> 01:37:02.120
 And you just said, I was always wondering what the redshift meant.

01:37:02.120 --> 01:37:04.920
 You said it means that it's traveling at a high velocity?

01:37:04.920 --> 01:37:08.240
 Yeah, away from us.

01:37:08.240 --> 01:37:16.480
 Like the Doppler effect of sound when a vehicle goes by you blowing its horn, the pitch drops

01:37:16.480 --> 01:37:21.240
 as it passes you.

01:37:21.240 --> 01:37:31.160
 And Halton Arp has a website with some of his more recent comments, but that's the general

01:37:31.160 --> 01:37:40.880
 behavior that when you get evidence that is embarrassing to your committed assumptions,

01:37:40.880 --> 01:37:46.120
 you have to stop the person who's providing the evidence.

01:37:46.120 --> 01:37:51.600
 Yeah, it seems a lot like at the university level, it seems like it's king of the hill

01:37:51.600 --> 01:37:52.600
 there.

01:37:52.600 --> 01:38:02.040
 You've got whole departments and they've established income flows from grants, and

01:38:02.040 --> 01:38:06.080
 if you shake that up, you're really upsetting a lot of people.

01:38:06.080 --> 01:38:16.360
 Once my physiology professor came up behind me to see how my nerve setup was going, and

01:38:16.360 --> 01:38:24.800
 I showed him that as the microelectrode entered the cell, the voltage went up properly.

01:38:24.800 --> 01:38:31.000
 And I said, and now notice as it penetrates to the other side of the cell, you get a dip,

01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:33.720
 a rise, a dip, and another rise.

01:38:33.720 --> 01:38:40.320
 And then when you move the electrode back, you repeat that same pattern of voltage changes

01:38:40.320 --> 01:38:42.720
 within the single cell.

01:38:42.720 --> 01:38:56.200
 And he at some level recognized that that violated his whole doctrine of cell voltage,

01:38:56.200 --> 01:39:03.000
 which is that there's a liquid inside the membrane, which has a voltage difference from

01:39:03.000 --> 01:39:04.580
 the outside.

01:39:04.580 --> 01:39:10.600
 And for each region inside the single cell to have a different voltage, he just turned

01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:14.120
 around and he never spoke to me again.

01:39:14.120 --> 01:39:15.120
 Really?

01:39:15.120 --> 01:39:26.480
 That's sad and too bad that he couldn't just take what you found out and go with that.

01:39:26.480 --> 01:39:27.480
 Yeah.

01:39:27.480 --> 01:39:33.440
 Well, people certainly do get attached to their own ideas, I've got to say.

01:39:33.440 --> 01:39:37.560
 Okay, here's a question if you're ready to move on to a health question.

01:39:37.560 --> 01:39:40.360
 Okay, about neuropathy.

01:39:40.360 --> 01:39:47.160
 Extreme numbness, extremity numbness, like in people's fingers coming and going.

01:39:47.160 --> 01:39:50.520
 What is that indicative of?

01:39:50.520 --> 01:40:03.480
 It's common in diabetes, but it often happens years before you see the blood sugar becoming

01:40:03.480 --> 01:40:06.520
 what they define as diabetic.

01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:11.080
 So it's really something other than diabetes.

01:40:11.080 --> 01:40:18.680
 In the case of one hand, for example, it can be one of the tunnel syndromes, either in

01:40:18.680 --> 01:40:26.160
 the wrist or the elbow, sometimes up in the shoulder or neck, wherever the nerve goes

01:40:26.160 --> 01:40:28.660
 through a pinch point.

01:40:28.660 --> 01:40:37.700
 If your connective tissue swells up, the nerve gets squeezed and you get tingly numbness.

01:40:37.700 --> 01:40:46.080
 If that happens during the night, that's very common in anyone who has just a slight hormonal

01:40:46.080 --> 01:40:55.620
 imbalance away from good oxidative metabolism, causing the connective tissues to take up

01:40:55.620 --> 01:41:04.860
 water and swell, and many people who were going to have carpal tunnel surgery, for example,

01:41:04.860 --> 01:41:12.620
 or back surgery or whatever, just by taking thyroid or pregnenolone have completely relieved

01:41:12.620 --> 01:41:15.620
 the problem and not needed the surgery.

01:41:15.620 --> 01:41:20.140
 Okay, well, that's good to know.

01:41:20.140 --> 01:41:28.460
 There's a lot of interesting work being done on that now, hundreds of relevant papers.

01:41:28.460 --> 01:41:37.220
 The standard medical opinion of peripheral neuropathy is that it's produced by high blood

01:41:37.220 --> 01:41:45.060
 sugar, even though it occurs before the person has high blood sugar in many cases.

01:41:45.060 --> 01:41:56.140
 Association with diabetes lets it be blamed on sugar and particular changes such as carbonyl

01:41:56.140 --> 01:42:04.140
 attachment to proteins, a certain sugar metabolic change in the cell.

01:42:04.140 --> 01:42:15.820
 They have four or five of their definitions of the cause attributing it to sugar, which

01:42:15.820 --> 01:42:21.700
 are of interest to the pharmaceutical industry because each one of them is an opportunity

01:42:21.700 --> 01:42:24.140
 to develop a drug.

01:42:24.140 --> 01:42:33.460
 But since the same kind of process in the nerve happens way before diabetes sets in

01:42:33.460 --> 01:42:43.700
 and in people who never get diabetes, and it also happens in the brain syndromes, many

01:42:43.700 --> 01:42:53.660
 other lines of research are connecting it to toxins, endotoxin from the intestine, prostaglandins,

01:42:53.660 --> 01:42:58.900
 so that simply taking aspirin can make a tremendous change.

01:42:58.900 --> 01:43:08.060
 The nitric oxide, which is released from not only smog and cigarette smoke, but from the

01:43:08.060 --> 01:43:18.180
 irritation from intestinal toxins and prostaglandins, and from an estrogen excess and deficiency

01:43:18.180 --> 01:43:23.100
 of other steroids.

01:43:23.100 --> 01:43:34.100
 About 25 years ago, it was recognized that the brain is a major steroid organ, like a

01:43:34.100 --> 01:43:38.860
 giant adrenal or gonad.

01:43:38.860 --> 01:43:48.140
 The brain produces a lot of steroid hormones and they're called neuro-steroids, but progesterone

01:43:48.140 --> 01:43:59.980
 and DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone, the main ones are derivatives of progesterone,

01:43:59.980 --> 01:44:07.540
 but several of the minor steroids are also produced in the brain.

01:44:07.540 --> 01:44:16.820
 That was recognized as an acceptable science for about 20 years, but just recently people

01:44:16.820 --> 01:44:23.300
 are now recognizing that peripheral nerves also have their nerve steroids and are just

01:44:23.300 --> 01:44:30.420
 as dependent as the brain on the right balance of estrogen and progesterone.

01:44:30.420 --> 01:44:35.060
 So perhaps supplementing some of those would help.

01:44:35.060 --> 01:44:41.700
 Yeah, and doing everything that helps the organism to balance the natural production

01:44:41.700 --> 01:44:42.700
 of them.

01:44:42.700 --> 01:44:48.500
 All right, well that's very useful.

01:44:48.500 --> 01:44:50.500
 Here's another question from Tyler.

01:44:50.500 --> 01:44:56.540
 Can you explain the role of electrolytes in the body and specifically how they are associated

01:44:56.540 --> 01:45:04.500
 with fluid balance, regulation, and what the relationship of them being electrolytes to

01:45:04.500 --> 01:45:08.940
 adrenal fatigue?

01:45:08.940 --> 01:45:12.060
 Let me just read this because I'm messing up this question.

01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:15.740
 Can you explain the role of electrolytes in the body, specifically how they are associated

01:45:15.740 --> 01:45:18.060
 with fluid balance and regulation?

01:45:18.060 --> 01:45:23.380
 The so-called adrenal fatigue, in quotes, mentality states that adrenal dysfunction

01:45:23.380 --> 01:45:27.660
 can hamper the body's ability to maintain an optimal balance of electrolytes, sodium

01:45:27.660 --> 01:45:29.220
 and potassium.

01:45:29.220 --> 01:45:33.360
 If someone is having issues with maintaining a proper fluid balance and has symptoms of

01:45:33.360 --> 01:45:43.420
 frequent urination and also seems to exhibit signs of minor hypo or hyperkalemia, potassium

01:45:43.420 --> 01:45:54.180
 I guess levels at times, what sort of therapies are available to alleviate these imbalances?

01:45:54.180 --> 01:46:05.420
 The medical dogma is that cells have pumps in their membranes and that pumps regulate

01:46:05.420 --> 01:46:10.780
 the balance in every cell and in the kidney.

01:46:10.780 --> 01:46:17.420
 These pumps are especially important because they regulate the ion balance in the bloodstream

01:46:17.420 --> 01:46:20.300
 and thus in the whole organism.

01:46:20.300 --> 01:46:33.540
 But Gilbert Ling's work shows that the pump concept in the membrane is simply irrational,

01:46:33.540 --> 01:46:38.340
 wildly unrelated to the evidence.

01:46:38.340 --> 01:46:51.780
 His explanation, condensing it, is that the cytoplasm, the whole cell substance is like

01:46:51.780 --> 01:46:55.100
 an ion exchange resin.

01:46:55.100 --> 01:47:05.660
 When you soften your water, you put sodium, charge the resin with sodium and then the

01:47:05.660 --> 01:47:13.220
 hard water containing calcium and magnesium displaces the sodium from the resin simply

01:47:13.220 --> 01:47:21.700
 because it has a higher affinity and acid will compete against the sodium.

01:47:21.700 --> 01:47:31.500
 So you have a hierarchy of ions with any given solid state material that can absorb water.

01:47:31.500 --> 01:47:36.860
 It will prefer and exclude different ions.

01:47:36.860 --> 01:47:48.140
 When the cell substance is acidified, it prefers potassium because of the ratio of the size

01:47:48.140 --> 01:47:58.780
 of the ion and the charge distribution on the surface of that size.

01:47:58.780 --> 01:48:13.140
 Comparing sodium to potassium, potassium prefers the solid material with a lower electron concentration.

01:48:13.140 --> 01:48:22.780
 If the cell pH rises, the electron concentration on the given protein increases and in that

01:48:22.780 --> 01:48:32.820
 state the sodium ion is preferred and potassium is displaced.

01:48:32.820 --> 01:48:47.460
 The main thing which determines in the healthy cell the acidic pH is the oxidation of fuel

01:48:47.460 --> 01:48:53.220
 producing not only ATP but carbon dioxide.

01:48:53.220 --> 01:48:59.220
 The carbon dioxide is itself an acid even in the gaseous form.

01:48:59.220 --> 01:49:09.980
 It's Lewis acid and as it ionizes and leaves the cell, it takes ions along with it to maintain

01:49:09.980 --> 01:49:10.980
 electrical balance.

01:49:10.980 --> 01:49:18.940
 You have a steady streaming out of the cell of carbonic acid and an associated positive

01:49:18.940 --> 01:49:20.820
 ion.

01:49:20.820 --> 01:49:30.020
 So if you slow down the production of carbon dioxide and the production of useful energy

01:49:30.020 --> 01:49:42.540
 such as ATP, the pH rises not only because less CO2 is being produced and dragging the

01:49:42.540 --> 01:49:52.220
 base minerals, the alkaline minerals out of the cell, but lactic acid is formed and in

01:49:52.220 --> 01:49:59.740
 leaving the cell it takes protons out with it making the cell more alkaline and that

01:49:59.740 --> 01:50:04.540
 alkaline condition prefers sodium.

01:50:04.540 --> 01:50:11.980
 Specific clear experiments, for example, the salt gland of a turtle's eye or reptile's

01:50:11.980 --> 01:50:34.980
 eye can excrete salt when they eat a salty diet and they have to get rid of excess sodium.

01:50:34.980 --> 01:50:45.860
 The mechanism there is the same thing, carbon dioxide leaving the gland taking sodium out

01:50:45.860 --> 01:50:48.740
 with it.

01:50:48.740 --> 01:50:56.420
 So that's a way to visualize what's happening in every cell.

01:50:56.420 --> 01:51:08.260
 In a low thyroid state you have many imbalances, every cell is tending to take up sodium and

01:51:08.260 --> 01:51:19.460
 calcium to lose potassium and magnesium, but in the kidney those same processes work as

01:51:19.460 --> 01:51:30.500
 in the salt gland and the condition of being low thyroid means that you lose sodium because

01:51:30.500 --> 01:51:38.420
 you can't put it back into the bloodstream from the urine.

01:51:38.420 --> 01:51:45.620
 The reverse process of a salt gland is putting it back into the bloodstream as needed so

01:51:45.620 --> 01:51:51.660
 the urine can be relatively dilute.

01:51:51.660 --> 01:52:00.540
 So a low thyroid person will tend to put more sodium into the urine and make their blood

01:52:00.540 --> 01:52:06.780
 relatively dilute and that leads to swelling of the tissues.

01:52:06.780 --> 01:52:18.340
 The swelling really started back in the cell which became alkaline because any shift that

01:52:18.340 --> 01:52:28.020
 increases the electron density and alkalinity, whether it's an ion exchange resin or a cell,

01:52:28.020 --> 01:52:36.060
 it will make that cell take up water, hydrating the gel.

01:52:36.060 --> 01:52:44.020
 So it isn't just the kidney that's losing sodium and retaining water, it's every cell

01:52:44.020 --> 01:52:52.100
 in your body is suffering the same thing when you aren't respiring, producing enough CO2.

01:52:52.100 --> 01:53:03.100
 Wow, so that's quite a series of effects it has.

01:53:03.100 --> 01:53:11.580
 So you would say that perhaps taking thyroid or increasing your salt and mineral intake

01:53:11.580 --> 01:53:12.580
 would help?

01:53:12.580 --> 01:53:17.740
 Yeah, the salt will help the low thyroid person.

01:53:17.740 --> 01:53:26.100
 They call it inappropriate secretion of antidiuretic hormone syndrome but it's I think basically

01:53:26.100 --> 01:53:36.340
 a hormone imbalance starting with thyroid but then the adrenal hormones are involved.

01:53:36.340 --> 01:53:47.620
 When you lose too much sodium, your albastrone increases in the adrenal and that tends to

01:53:47.620 --> 01:53:57.460
 exchange magnesium loss for sodium loss and so it can keep you going in the absence of

01:53:57.460 --> 01:54:08.100
 sufficient dietary sodium but the increasing albastrone has its hormonal effects shifting

01:54:08.100 --> 01:54:19.060
 even your parasympathetic nervous system balance and causing all kinds of inflammation, progression

01:54:19.060 --> 01:54:33.340
 towards fibrosis, heart failure almost always involves too much effective aldosterone.

01:54:33.340 --> 01:54:36.980
 So we're running out of time here, we only have six minutes left and I have too many

01:54:36.980 --> 01:54:44.620
 questions so we may have to do this again sometime.

01:54:44.620 --> 01:54:48.420
 In fact one of these questions is about Gerald Pollack and Gilbert Ling and I'm going to

01:54:48.420 --> 01:54:51.580
 have Gerald Pollack on the show in a couple of weeks.

01:54:51.580 --> 01:54:57.620
 So Andre, sorry we're not going to deal with that today.

01:54:57.620 --> 01:55:01.820
 Thank you for your question but we will get to it I hope.

01:55:01.820 --> 01:55:10.620
 I hope everyone has a chance to look at some of Gerald Pollack's videos, they're just great,

01:55:10.620 --> 01:55:14.180
 very impressive things that he's doing with water.

01:55:14.180 --> 01:55:23.380
 Yeah it is, it's very hopeful I think because it's a very exciting new approach to how water

01:55:23.380 --> 01:55:29.500
 affects us all and I think it will prove to have, I mean it's a carry on of Gilbert Ling's

01:55:29.500 --> 01:55:37.420
 work and it's up Gerald Pollack I think is very good at explaining it.

01:55:37.420 --> 01:55:44.980
 Something that Dr. Ling, I have, as a lay person I had trouble understanding it.

01:55:44.980 --> 01:55:48.940
 So I thought maybe this question here, we have a little bit of time left, we have like

01:55:48.940 --> 01:55:59.220
 four minutes and it also relates to the cell and the mitochondria and our energy mechanism.

01:55:59.220 --> 01:56:06.020
 It's from Tony, he says, "Dr. Peat, you mentioned that if the cell gets damaged in the mitochondria,

01:56:06.020 --> 01:56:12.340
 for example too much calcium without other protective minerals or too much PUFAs, polyunsaturated

01:56:12.340 --> 01:56:16.300
 fatty acids in the diet, it dies, the cell dies.

01:56:16.300 --> 01:56:20.020
 So is the body able to make new cells to sustain energy?

01:56:20.020 --> 01:56:25.140
 Is this person left with less cells to make ATP and will possibly continue life with less

01:56:25.140 --> 01:56:30.140
 energy even when they are eating carbohydrates, fruit, sugar and less starch?

01:56:30.140 --> 01:56:35.180
 Will this person be able to recover with efficient glucose metabolism or have to live with the

01:56:35.180 --> 01:56:39.820
 lactic acid glycolysis like a diabetic?"

01:56:39.820 --> 01:56:52.780
 Yeah, the mitochondria themselves can be repaired and induced to multiply in an individual damaged

01:56:52.780 --> 01:57:04.580
 cell and a dying cell can be replaced from stem cells or adjoining cells given the proper

01:57:04.580 --> 01:57:17.220
 conditions and there was a demonstration of old people whose muscle mitochondria lacked

01:57:17.220 --> 01:57:24.060
 all of the necessary DNA for proper mitochondrial function so it looked like their mitochondria

01:57:24.060 --> 01:57:33.740
 were simply on the way to dying, but just by having them do some weightlifting, concentric

01:57:33.740 --> 01:57:41.300
 weightlifting, not the kind that stretches your tight muscle but the kind that only has

01:57:41.300 --> 01:57:44.580
 weight when the muscle is contracting.

01:57:44.580 --> 01:57:56.220
 So with a few weeks of concentric muscle building, they were able to find new mitochondria in

01:57:56.220 --> 01:58:00.820
 their muscle cells with all of the proper DNA.

01:58:00.820 --> 01:58:09.620
 So apparently the few good mitochondria they had left were multiplying and taking over

01:58:09.620 --> 01:58:18.940
 so something as simple as concentric exercise can restore old and damaged cells and if the

01:58:18.940 --> 01:58:27.140
 whole cell dies then a whole new cell with good mitochondria can replace it.

01:58:27.140 --> 01:58:34.340
 There were experiments taking samples from people's facial skin and finding a lot of

01:58:34.340 --> 01:58:41.300
 mutated damaged cells from exposure to the sun and when they were kept out of the sun

01:58:41.300 --> 01:58:52.940
 for several weeks completely covering the skin so it wasn't getting ultraviolet damage,

01:58:52.940 --> 01:58:56.860
 their mutated skin cells disappeared.

01:58:56.860 --> 01:59:01.380
 Stem cells had taken over and replaced skin cells with good cells.

01:59:01.380 --> 01:59:11.540
 So pretty much stopping the continuing damage and giving the cell the necessary stimulation

01:59:11.540 --> 01:59:17.740
 and work to do, things will repair themselves.

01:59:17.740 --> 01:59:25.500
 That happens even to the brain and in far advanced cases I've seen people come out of

01:59:25.500 --> 01:59:30.780
 dementia and epilepsy and very, very far advanced things.

01:59:30.780 --> 01:59:36.020
 So that's really, really hopeful Ray and we have exactly about 10 seconds left so I'll

01:59:36.020 --> 01:59:38.140
 have to let you go.

01:59:38.140 --> 01:59:39.860
 Thank you so much for being on today.

01:59:39.860 --> 01:59:44.140
 Really appreciate it.

01:59:44.140 --> 01:59:54.180
 You can find out more about Ray at raypeat.com.

01:59:54.180 --> 01:59:59.460
 And you've been listening to Politics and Science on WMRLP1, the previous show.