This is a Dynamike Network podcast.
Hi and welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films
and debate the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters and stat-based
battle simulations. I'm Marvelous Joe. And I'm his twin brother Johnny DC. And in this episode,
continuing Spooky October, aka Spooktober, Jonathan and I are coming at you with another Halloween
inspired episode. Last week we reviewed Blade Trinity. And before that we... hit the characters
of Andrew Bennett and Dracula against each other. For this episode, it's going to be a demon
duel. We're going to find out who's going to win in a fight between Trigon and Dormammu.
This is a big one. They are vastly powerful, interdimensional demonic entities. And the
duel is just going to be insane. Yeah, these definitely aren't like your typical demons.
This isn't Etrigan versus Ghost Rider here. These are like the big daddy. demons, essentially
the devil. Well, not so much for Marvel, but we're gonna get into this Big Daddy Demon Duel
later on this episode. Before that, we're gonna break down the latest Kong-Fuk movie news that
came out this past week, including all the drama surrounding the Aquaman 2 production, as well
as all the drama surrounding the Daredevil Born Again series production. Lot of drama. Yeah,
we got Big Daddy Demon Duel's and a lot of mama drama going on. As always, we list our segment
times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes. if you want to
skip ahead to a particular topic. As our listeners may know, our dual simulator is so advanced
that it's gained sentience and has named itself the artificial life form for running extensive
duels, just a rather very intelligent simulator 9000 or Alfred Jarvis 9000. He has a quick
message for our listeners, so listen up. Why hello there. Do you love listening and chatting
about Marvel and DC? Then become a part of the dynamic dual community on Patreon where you
can choose from three tiers. The dynamic 2-0 tier lets you listen to this podcast without
ads and gives you access to its Discord chat group where you can chat with Johnny DC and
Marvelous Joe. The fantastic 4 tier gives you that and more with two bonus episodes each
month including bloopers and top 10 shows where Johnny and Joe count down your favourite Marvel
and DC subjects. The X-Force tier makes you an executive producer of Dynamic Dual. where
every month you help the hosts choose what to review and who to fight against each other.
And finally, the Dynamike Podcast Network tier allows aspiring podcasters to create their
own battle-focused show using this Monte Carlo simulator. Johnny and Joe will help you develop
your show, provide graphic support and consultation, and get you simulation results to announce
on your show. Pitch the twins your show via email at dynamicduelpodcast.gmail.com or by
reaching out to them on social media. your pip cheerio. Thanks, AJ 9K, and thanks to everyone
who supports the podcast. Be sure to tune in to the Max Destruction podcast, which is part
of the Dynamike podcast network this Wednesday, where this whole month Ken is going to pit
some of the spookiest characters from film against each other, including Pinhead versus Pennywise,
Candyman versus Leatherface and Predator versus the Alien Queen. Yeah, last week, I guested
on his podcast where we found out who'd win in a fight between. Jason vs. Michael Myers.
Definitely check that episode out. Also tune into Senjo World this Thursday to find out
who would win in a fight between Dio Brando from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Denji from
Chainsaw Man. The host Zach also has these spooky characters being put up against each other
this month. Visit dynamicpodcasts.com or click the link in our show notes to listen to all
the shows in the Dynamike Podcast Network. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize.
A no prize is an award Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the Dynamic Dual No Prize,
is a digital award that we post on Instagram and in our email newsletter for the person
that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week we asked, what Marvel
or DC character that has not headlined to their own video game do you want to see get a solo
game? We got so many fantastic answers for this. In the end, there were just too many great
ideas, and what we had to do was nail down the great ideas that went into more specifics regarding
the gameplay. Right, right. There are a lot of characters that I think would make for great
open world games like Batman Arkham City or the Spider-Man game. So we had to prioritize
answers with more definitive gameplay aspects. Yeah, let's go ahead and run down the honorable
mentions as well as the no prize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to Matt Lamb,
who said. Hey guys, it's Matt Lamb here. See, I'll definitely ask this question a while back
and I'll give the same answer, just with some new details. I'd love to see a Nightcrawler
video game and I'd love to see it as an amalgam between Assassin's Creed and a game called
Aragami. It was a stealth game where you play as a ninja wraith with shadow powers. I personally
love stealth games, especially given the opportunity to try and ghost a level without killing a
guard or being seen. And I'd love to see a game like that with Nightcrawler. Yeah, we may have
asked this question before. I know recently we did ask what your guys thoughts were regarding
a Marvel versus DC video game and somebody gave a Nightcrawler answer for that, which we didn't
give an honorable mention. But for this question, a Nightcrawler video game in the vein of Assassin's
Creed sounds totally awesome. Yeah, I love stealth games like Metal Gear, like Splinter Cell.
I think that style of game would be perfect for Nightcrawler who, you know, could totally
stab some fools in the shadows. And, you know, isn't like insanely over the top powerful with
like body armor and stuff that he wouldn't be invulnerable in this game and would make it
a challenge. Right. And, you know, he's really good at hiding in the shadows due to the nature
of his blue colored fur. So you can have Nightcrawler hide in the shadows up on the ceilings and
walls and stuff like that and then teleport where he needs to go to. I think it would be
a whole lot of fun just trying to stay undetected. Oh, I want it now. Yeah, great idea. Our next
honorable mention goes to John Spees. Who said? Hey, fellas, it's John Spees. So I have this
idea. It could be three titles, but it's basically one game. So let's take, like, let's combine
the old Myst game with Portals and Arkham and create a crime-solving puzzle action game.
And if you want it for kids, it can be Detective Chimp. If you want it for teens, it can be
The Question. And if you want it for adults, it can be Roar Shack. I love this idea. I totally
remember the old, like, almost escape room type video games like Myst where you just point
and click on different elements within a room. I would love to see this as a Detective Chimp
game personally and not just for kids. Like I would totally play that as an adult because
Detective Chimp is dope. Yeah, he could deal with some quite mature themes as a member of
Justice League Dark, right? Sure. Yeah, just like Coward the Duck, which is probably why
we pit those two against each other in a Christmas duel that we did a few years back. But no,
I think that's a fantastic idea. Like combining the investigative elements of a game like Myst
with the puzzle solving aspects of a game like Portal. I think that's a winning recipe and
a whole lot of fun when you incorporate like superhero themes, especially with the character
as fun as Detective Chimp. Yeah, 100%. I could see this as a mobile game too. It would just
be awesome. I would love to play it. Yeah, I'd play the shit out of it. Great answer, John.
Make sure to listen to his podcast, The Blast from our Past Podcast with his brother Adam.
Yeah, they're great friends of the show. Love those guys. Our final honorable mention goes
to Colby Hentges, who said, Hey, boys, Colby Hentges. The video game I want to see would
be She-Hulk, Ace Attorney. It would look and play just like the Phoenix Wright games. Capcom
can even make it. You do some cases as Jen Walters, some cases as She-Hulk. Unlock bonus cases
you can do as Matt Murdock. But in a very Harvey Birdman way, all the cases will be defending
superheroes against ridiculous claims. I think it'd be fun. Now, I've never actually played
the Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney video games, but I've heard a lot about them over the years,
and I've always been interested in checking them out. I know there's a lot of famous elements
from them, like the objection cut scene and everything like that. With the little knowledge
that I do know about the gameplay and how fun these games look, basically it's the only lawyer
video game out there, right? But I think applying that to the superhero lawyers, like She-Hulk
or Matt Murdock, Daredevil, is a fantastic idea. It definitely suits She-Hulk a little bit better
because part of the appeal of her courtroom stories is how kind of outlandish they get
with the superhero community involved. And I think it would be really cool to, you know,
like go over the evidence and then see how it contradicts the witness statements, then drill
them on the inconsistencies to try to get my client declared not guilty. Sounds really interesting.
I did not know this game existed, but I love unique games like that. I think if you had
some quick action scenes with She-Hulk where she had to like punch someone who leapt over
the witness stand or something like that would be awesome. That would be interesting. Yeah,
Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney is one of the gems in Capcom's game library. So great answer,
Colby Hentges. We also want to give a shout out to Andrew Shunk, Christopher Manotti, Nate
Mantineo, Scott Camacho, Travis Herndon, and Unworthy Collector from Instagram and YouTube
for all going to our website and leaving your answer. But the winner of this week's no prize
is... Rick McGrew who said, for video games, I think the blue beetle would be really cool
because you can play it as he just gets the scarab and the way you unlock is him learning
the new abilities that the scarab would do. So one of my favorite video games of all time
has to be the Metroid Prime series. The graphics, the gameplay, the puzzle element that it had
was just so enjoyable to play. And I think it would translate really well into a blue beetle
game. where, like Rick said, you know, the more control he gains over the scarab that's attached
to him, the more abilities he unlocks, which allows him to explore previously locked areas
of the gameplay map. Yeah, and also allows him to defeat previously undefeatable villains
using his new abilities. I think that's a great idea. I think a Blue Beetle game in the vein
of Metroid Prime is a fantastic idea. There's just so much potential there. Yeah, and it
doesn't even have to be a first-person shooter. Like you make that third person, you could
also add like a combat mechanic to it, which would be really cool with like all the different
arms that come from his back and stuff and blades that he can make. It would be amazing. Like
the character of blue beetle was made for a video game. Come on Warner brothers. I know
that you and Disney are flushing out your video game divisions. Our listeners have given you
two bad ass games each they should totally run with because they sound amazing. Absolutely.
I would play the heck out of all of these and I'm not even a gamer barely. They just sound
like a lot of fun. Just take my money. Take it. So congrats to Rick McGrew for winning
this week's No Prize. Guys go check out his podcast called the Retro Nomopod. If you the
listener want a shout out winning your own No Prize, stay tuned to later on this episode
when we'll be asking another question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news.
Okay, so there's been a lot of drama surrounding Aquaman 2, and this past week it turns out
that basically all of the rumors we've been hearing are true. Some users on Reddit all
banded together and they paid the court fees to get therapy notes from Amber Heard's therapy
sessions released. And they leaked them online and all of this shit about Aquaman 2 came to
the surface including the fact that according to Amber Heard... Jason Momoa wanted her fired
from set didn't like her and basically the same with James Wan because he felt that anytime
He posted anything about Aquaman 2 fans were just riled up by the fact that she was in the
movie So it just created a very toxic environment on social media for any promotion regarding
the film So both Jason Momoa and James Wan reportedly wanted to get her replaced in the role Which
Warner Brothers was ready to do until Amber Heard's? boyfriend at the time, Elon Musk threatened
to sue the studio. And since, you know, he's the richest man in the world, they took the
threat seriously. I just think that's all hilarious. I think it was largely displayed during the
trial against Johnny Depp that she does have somewhat of a victim complex. So when she stated
things like Jason Momoa dressed up like Johnny Depp in order to tease her. Right.
went to his defense saying that's how Jason Momoa dresses. He wears a lot of rings, a lot
of necklaces. He dresses in this very bohemian style, similar to Johnny Depp, but of course,
she would not really see it that way, right? Right. Variety also released information saying
that Ben Affleck, Henry Cavill, Gal Gadot, Ezra Miller, and Jason Momoa would not be returning
to their same roles in the DCU, though they did say that Jason Momoa is in talks to return
as Lobo. in the Superman legacy movie, which was really interesting. I didn't think it would
happen that soon. I don't think any of that was a surprise, except for maybe Gal Gadot.
I did think that maybe she would hold on to her role as Wonder Woman in the new universe,
but to get it confirmed that she won't be, and then there was no follow-up statement from
Gal Gadot's reps makes me think that all the drama regarding her is over. Yeah, no, I agree.
I mean, it's not to say that she couldn't come back to a role in the DCU, sort of like Jason
Momoa. but it doesn't sound like it's going to be as Wonder Roman. Yeah. They also did
mention in the article, the potential for Universal to perhaps buy Warner Brothers and therefore
DC in the future. So no matter what they do going forward, they need to make it work, whether
it's under Warner Brothers, whether it's under Universal, as it's a big selling point for
Warner Brothers. I think Disney should just buy them. And then we finally get that Marvel
vs. DC movie. Like, why Universal? I guess Universal is in need of the IP. Disney could buy Warner
Brothers over my cold dead body. You alone will defend this. The purchase if I have to. It's
interesting how Disney might be acquired by Apple. Oh, yeah. And then you would have Apple
versus I don't want to say universal. It's NBC Universal, which is owned by Comcast. So really
Apple versus Comcast, two tech companies. Yeah, that's weird. One company makes the products
that you surf on the other company's Internet with. We'll see how everything shakes down
with Marvel and DC business wise in the coming years Yeah, the NBC Universal thing we may
learn about as soon as next year And I just kind of want this whole thing to be done with
so if we're gonna sell just sell I think it could work out. Maybe we'll make some, you
know, Universal Monster comics or something like that. That'd be that'd be dope By we you
mean DC and not you at all. You know when I say I really mean DC In Marvel News which I
won't refer to Marvel in the first person because I'm not delusional. Um, we learned this past
week, this is crazy news. The Daredevil born again series is being overhauled in a significant
creative reboot. Basically when the writers and actor strikes are going on, Marvel executives
were able to review the footage that they had already shot for the Daredevil born again series,
about less than half of the series was shot. And they looked at it and said, wow, this is
not working. So they... let go of the head writers Chris Ord and Matt Corman, release the directors,
and are basically hiring an entirely new writing and directorial team and a new show runner.
And basically overriding their entire process, not just for this show, but for their television
series in general. Which I think is great. I think that's fantastic news. This is both horrible
and fantastic news. So the horrible news is that The Daredevil television show is likely
going to be delayed indefinitely until they hire a showrunner, new writers, and new directors,
and then get this thing filmed, produced, and out there on the streaming platform. They're
basically starting from ground zero with the show, except for, you know, the cast. The good
news about this is that Marvel has realized that their method of making television series
which is in line with their movie production process where basically Marvel was treating
these television series as eight hour long films, you know, given massive budgets and then they
would review it and then basically fix what they needed to with reshoots and post-production
special effects and stuff like that. That is the Marvel method to making movies, which is
not always successful, might I add. And I do think they need to rethink that as well. But
the process definitely doesn't work for television series that are long-form storytelling. You
know, there's a lot more story that could go wrong within the course of six to eight episodes.
And there's no overall creative vision that you get in television series when you don't
have a showrunner. So basically, Marvel's like, hey, there are some great ideas from your standard
television series-making process that we should roll into our Marvel method. And we need to
hire showrunners. We need to film pilots. We need to come up with a show bible. all things
that are essential to quality television making outside of Marvel Studios. Which seems like
a no brainer, right? I mean, I'm surprised they weren't doing that to begin with. Not necessarily
the pilot thing, but like the show Bible, like shouldn't that be the MCU Bible? They have
to have one. I'm sure they do, but you know, they're introducing new characters that have
very little to do with the greater MCU that aren't playing into that larger universe. Shows
such as Moon Knight, She-Hulk. Echo. So these shows can have their own Bible that has very
little to do with a larger MCU, but these documents need to exist that really steer the direction
of the show for the creatives producing it. Yeah, a lot of these shows, because they don't
really lead into anything else, have really lost the must see factor that the films had,
you know, during the infinity saga that we had, because like each movie dealt with like an
infinity stone. or led in some way to Infinity War and Endgame. It'll be nice to see Marvel
return to something like that for this multiverse saga. Yeah, we've said it before on the show,
Marvel needs to get back their cohesion that they once had because everything feels very
disparate right now. And I think this new process that they're gonna adapt will not only result
in a more cohesive universe, but just better television shows overall. So RIP Daredevil
coming out in 2024, but here's looking to 2025, maybe 2026. Whenever it comes out, I do think
that there's this unfortunate burden that is upon the show in that because it's coming out
in Disney Plus and it doesn't have the freedom of being on Netflix, it has an uphill battle
when it comes to the inevitable comparisons that will be made to the Netflix show. Maybe,
maybe not. You know, if they were just smart and hired the old writers from the Netflix
show, then this whole situation would be moot. Like. It's so obvious, just do that. I think
that's a great idea. I think that's the only way they're gonna avoid headlines like sure
Daredevil Born Again was good, but it wasn't as good as the Netflix show because that very
likely could be the case. I kinda hope they'd bring the show runner back from season one,
Steven S. DeKnight, cause I just think he did a fantastic job and basically setting up the
whole vibe of what the show would be. But we'll see what happens. Speaking of anticipated television
shows, that brings us to our question of the week.
What upcoming television series for Marvel or DC are you most looking forward to, and why?
Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in the bottom
right hand corner of the screen, which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your message
could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case we include you on
the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer, and award that person a Dynamic Duel No Prize
that we'll post to Instagram and our email newsletter. Be sure to answer before October 21st.
But I think that does it for all the news for this episode, so let's go ahead and get into
our main event as part of Spooktober. We're gonna find out who would win in a fight between
the interdimensional demons of Trigon and Dormammu.
Alright, Trigon versus Dormammu. These guys are the big badass demons of the respective
universes. You know, like Marvel has some pretty badass demons like Mephisto, Satanish, Lucifer,
and Asmodeus and things like that, but Dormammu eclipses them all. He's not a hell lord like
them, but he is a class three demon who is in charge of an entire dimension known as the
Dark Dimension, also known as the Realm of Darkness. Wait, what? The Dark Dimension? That's fucking
Trigon's domain, bro. That domain and multiple other dimensions that he's conquered because
he is DC's premier demon lord, like no contest. Well, that makes me feel bad for DC because
Trigon is super lame and he's gonna get his demon ass beat by Dormammu, who is so freaking
powerful, you're F'd. This is gonna be hilarious. Dude, you think Dormammu is powerful? Not with
a name like Dormammu. Like Trigon, yeah, it's a powerful, strong name. fucking Dormammu,
you're giving me shit about Andrew Bennett. What the hell is a Dormammu? What the hell
is a Trigon? Trigon sounds like some kind of like tech company. Like they manufacture printers
or something. Like buy your next Trigon printer. Yeah, like a really bad ass printer, right?
Whereas fucking Dormammu is like a company that makes moomoo's or something like that, you
know? What? It's like, yeah, you can't fit in your clothes, buy a Dormammu. Oh my God. I
don't know how you're gonna talk that shit about the Lord of Darkness, but uh, you'll pay the
price. You're gonna pay the price for it. We'll see. We'll see. To explain the methodology
behind our duels, let's go to our sentient duel simulator, Alfred Jarvis 9000. AJ9K, tell our
listeners how you go about determining a winner in our duel matchups. Yes, of course, sir.
The way I determine a winner between the contestants is by running 1000 Monte Carlo simulations
using the characters statistics. A Monte Carlo simulation is a probabilistic model used to
determine outcomes through random sampling. In this case, I randomised the statistics along
a normal distribution as a way to simulate the many variables that can occur during battle.
The stat parameters are based on the official Marvel power grid from which the DC characters'
statistics are extrapolated. Additional stat categories are included such as range, damage
potential, versatility and perception in order to create a more detailed and accurate simulation.
The results of the 1000 simulations provide a percentage of wins for each character. The
contestant with the higher percentage is declared the victor, as they have a higher probability
to win any given battle. In an equitable pairing, neither character should win 100% of the matches.
The comic book stories have shown that there's even a way for Batman to defeat Superman, so
the confidence rate of my method falls in line with the precedents that have been established
in the source material. My mathematical simulations are without subjectivity or bias. Feats are
not the sole consideration, nor are fan votes tabulated for determination of the winner.
Thanks AJ9K! Before we run the simulations though, we like to break down each character's histories
and abilities before improvising a scenario on how we imagine one of the 1000 simulations
would play out beat for beat. And I believe it is my turn to go first with the Marvel characters
backstory, so let me go ahead and tell you all about Dormammu, aka the Lord of Darkness, the
Dread One. the god Tyrant, the eater of souls, the ass kicker of Trigon. Dormammu came into
existence thousands if not millions of years ago in the realm of the Falteens, an ancient
race of immensely powerful extradimensional beings of pure magical energy. After several
millennia of existence, Dormammu and his sister Umar began to pull matter into themselves,
taking on physical form, a practice forbidden to the Falteen race. After slaying their father,
Dormammu and Umar were exiled from their native realm and cast out into the multiverse. They
explored numerous dimensions, absorbing more matter into themselves, until they settled
upon and conquered the realm of darkness, also known as the Dark Dimension. The realm contained
portals into other universes, which Dormammu and Umar used to absorb other dimensions into
their new domain. After a time, Dormammu discovered a portal into the realm of the Mindless Ones.
which were indestructible magic beings of destruction. The Mindless Ones invaded the Realm of Darkness
through the portal, but Dormammu and Umar were able to constrain and imprison them, releasing
them only at their own bidding. Not long after, Dormammu banished Umar herself to a pocket
dimension so that he could reign in the Realm of Darkness solely and unopposed, though he
did take Umar's daughter, Clea, into his service. As the god tyrant of the Realm of Darkness,
he waged wars against other realms, conquering them and growing his dominion, and thousands
of years ago, he turned his attention to Earth's dimension. He helped create the hellish demon
lord Satanish to spread darkness and prepare his invasion, though Dormammu's plot was thwarted
by Agamotto, the first sorcerer supreme, who used his powerful eye amulet and the mysterious
Staff of One to repel him. Hundreds of years ago, Dormammu tried his hand at Earth again,
causing London's Great Fire of 1666 and using the life force of its victims to link the realm
of darkness to Earth via Stonehenge. He was stopped by a young sorcerer at the time named
Yao, who would go on to become Earth's new sorcerer supreme called the Ancient One, and become
one of Dormammu's greatest foes across the multiverse. In the modern day, Dormammu manipulated one
of the Ancient One's disciples, a sorcerer named Baron Mordo, into serving him and slowly weakening
the Ancient One over time. Feeling too weak to ward off an invasion by Dormammu, the Ancient
One sent his newest apprentice, the hero Doctor Strange, into the Realm of Darkness to stop
the Dark Lord's evil plans. Dormammu sent challenge after challenge at Doctor Strange, though the
Sorcerer was able to overcome them all. And as the God Tyrant drew upon the power of the
Dark Realm, the dimensional barriers within began to weaken, including the barrier that
contained the Mindless Ones. While Doctor Strange was not able to beat Dormammu, he did help
the Dark Lord seal the Mindless Ones back into their confinement, resulting in the God Tyrant
owing him a debt. Strange made Dormammu vow never to threaten Earth's dimension again,
resulting in the Dark Lord swearing vengeance against the hero, and thereafter trying tirelessly
to find a loophole to his bargain. You can learn more about Doctor Strange in his duel episode
against Doctor Fate. Dormammu found a workaround by manipulating or allying with other villains
to kill Doctor Strange and negate their pact. He partnered with Baron Mordo, the netherworld
sorcerer Taza, Loki, Doctor Doom, and others who were all defeated until eventually Dormammu
possessed Doctor Strange himself. Though the heroes allies, the defenders were able to break
him of the spell. You can learn more about the defenders in our Suicide Squad vs Defenders
dual episode. Later on, Dormammu unleashed the Mindless Ones on Earth in a ploy to trap Dr.
Strange and his niece Kleia when they entered the Realm of Darkness. Although Strange and
Kleia were able to free themselves, Dormammu had absorbed the power of his sister Umar into
himself, becoming so powerful that he realized that Earth's dimension was not worth his time
after all. Instead, he found it more sporting to go to war with the Lords of Hell themselves,
including whom you can learn more about in our Sandman vs Mephisto duel, and Hellstorm, who
we haven't done a duel with but will for sure eventually. Allying himself with Satanish,
whom Dormammu created all those years ago, Dormammu usurped two fifths of the Hellscape, before
facing against a stand of the united forces of Hell, led by the superheroine Hellcat, whom
you can learn more about in her duel against Catwoman. Defeated, Dormammu decided somehow
that Earth was again worth the taking, and he influenced a villain called The Hood. eventually
corrupting him enough to possess him and enter Earth's realm, though he was eventually exorcised
by the combined efforts of Doctor Strange, Hellstorm, and Brother Voodoo, whom you can learn more
about in his duel against John Constantine. Inspired by the zombie virus overtaking other
dimensions, Dormammu created a mindless plague that infected Earth, transforming numerous
civilians and heroes into mindless ones. The International Law Enforcement Agency, SHIELD,
then formed a new supernatural fighting force called the Howling Commandos, composed of Zombie,
the Living Mummy, Frankenstein's Monster, and the creature Man-Thing, whom you can learn
more about in his duel against Swamp-Thing. Together with the Absorbing Man, who absorbed
part of the Dark Dimension itself, the team was able to cure those infected with the Mindless
Plague. Recently, Ego the Living Planet was manipulated into joining a cult called the
Brethren of the Forgotten Flame, which prompted him to become the host of Dormammu, now reborn
in Earth's dimension. The Dark Lord conjured a horde of mindless ones to conquer the five
planets of Hala, Skrullos, Spartax, Eri, and Chitauri Prime to use them in a galaxy-spanning
pentagram through which he could summon the entire realm of darkness. It took the Guardians
of the Galaxy, led by Dr. Doom, to stop him, where Dr. Doom used a spell to siphon some
of Dormammu's power and conduct it into a magic metal known as Mysterium, which they used as
a giant deity-stopping bullet. The Guardians fired it at Dormammu, banishing it back to
the Dark Dimension. And that's his backstory. Powers-wise, Dormammu was a member of the Falteen,
energy deities of intensely powerful magic, whose might rivals that of the Celestials,
entities such as Galactus, and Elder Gods such as Zeus or Odin. His physical form is but an
armor shell for his sun-like embodiment. through which he commands an eternal supply of mystic
energy that can ravage the cosmos. Though he is considered a Class 3 demon, he is more powerful
than any of the Lords of Hell such as Mephisto or Satanish, whom he created. Dormammu is virtually
indestructible and immortal. If somehow his intangible raw energy form is destroyed, it's
replenished over time assisted by those who worship him throughout the multiverse. He's
capable of lifting well over a hundred tons. He can travel the multiverse and the time stream
at will. He can alter his size. He can conjure, transform, control, and absorb matter and energy.
He can summon demons or mindless ones to fight on his behalf. He has vast psionic powers,
including telekinesis and telepathy. He can warp reality. He can create and resurrect life.
He can remove and bestow powers on others. Basically, it would have been easier to put together a
list of what Dormammu can't do. He has an inconceivably massive intellect, though he is not immune
to the fault of pride, and he actually does have some training in an extra-dimensional
fighting style. He is slightly weaker in dimensions he has not conquered outside of his dark realm,
such as the Earth's dimension. There you go. Oh, what? I'm sorry, I fell asleep. Are you
done? Yeah. Okay. Sorry, I got bored by how weak and lame Dormammu is. He ain't shit compared
to Trigon. No, you're right. He ain't shit. He's whatever the opposite of shit is. You
are correct. He's way better than Trigon. Right, I mean he is shit compared to Trigon. Let me
tell you about his backstory. Hundreds of years ago, a sect of powerful pacifist humans led
by a woman named Azar left the earthly plane and all its suffering, settling in an interdimensional
land known as Azerath. To ensure that Azerath would remain a place of peace and goodness,
The humans exercised all evil from them and cast it through the Great Door in the Temple
of Azeroth where its energy drifted and coalesced in the interdimensional Aether. This evil energy
was eventually channeled into an unknown dimension by a dying alien race that worshipped evil,
and who used it to impregnate a woman from their order. The offspring was Trigon, a powerful
demon entity that slaughtered his mother and the before taking over and eventually destroying
his planet. From there, Trigon traveled across the universe, conquering worlds and eventually
the entire dimension, spreading his evil across the multiverse and siring children of his own
in an effort to expand his legacy and hate. None of his children, all sons, ever survived,
however, as Trigon either had to kill them when they inevitably rebelled and tried to usurp
his power, or they were killed as infants in an effort to stop the spread of Trigon's power.
Several decades ago, in the main DC universe, a young runaway named Angela Roth fell in with
a satanic cult, who accidentally summoned Trigon during one of their rituals. Trigon disguised
himself as an angelic being and took Angela as his bride, impregnating her before destroying
the cult and abandoning Angela.
who Trigon had manipulated into finding and caring for Angela and his unborn child. Angela
was renamed Arella, and though many in Azeroth were not pleased at the idea of caring for
Trigon's bride, they came to realize that if the child was raised on Earth, it would become
corrupted and pose a threat to the entire universe of their old homeworld. Arella eventually gave
birth to Trigon's first daughter, Raven, who you can learn more about in our Raven vs. Phoenix
duel. When a citizen of Azeroth named Juris felt threatened by Raven's existence, he attempted
to hurl the infant Raven through the Great Door into the Nether. But upon opening the door,
Juris came face to face with Trigon, who disintegrated Juris with fiery energy just before the door
shut. The infant Raven herself remained unharmed by Trigon's flames, and when she grew to a
teenager, feeling her father's evil influence over her, she opened the Great Door herself
and gazed for the first time upon the dangerous evil presence of Trigon, causing her to flee
Azeroth to Earth in an effort to find beings willing and capable of stopping her father,
ultimately forming a new incarnation of the Teen Titans, who you can learn more about in
our Titans vs X-Men Teen Duel episode. With Raven on Earth, Trigon was eventually able
to amass enough power to breach DC's main dimension, where he began destroying the planet, beginning
with Manhattan. Though Raven and the Teen Titans fought against her father, they proved no match
for Trigon, and Raven fled to Azeroth where her power would be the strongest, yet unknowingly
providing a path for Trigon to find the peaceful place, which is what he wanted all along. When
Trigon entered the Temple of Azeroth, Raven made a pact with him in which she would serve
him in his realm in exchange for leaving Earth and Azeroth alone. Trigon agreed. and brought
Raven to his hellish interdimensional domain that consisted of entire worlds that lived
in perpetual terror of Trigon's wrath. After Trigon destroyed a random planet known as Zinthia
to show Raven the futility of trying to save or help anyone, Raven helped the Teen Titans
and her mother, Arela, enter Trigon's domain where, with their combined efforts, they were
able to open a portal to a dimensional void and trap Trigon there, with Arela staying behind
to guard the gateway. After years of gathering his power, Trigon was able to break free of
his prison and laid siege to Azeroth alongside his demonic horde, slaying all of its inhabitants
except for his daughter Raven, whom he corrupted completely and who joined him in his conquest
of Earth. After conquering the planet, Trigon made the Titan's Tower his throne, upon which
he entered a state of meditation to regain strength as his power continued to corrupt the planet.
During this time, The corrupted Raven was healed by a ring that contained the pure souls of
everyone killed in Azeroth, imbuing her with a white light that allowed her to corrupt Trigon's
own evil soul and seemingly destroy him. Trigon's soul merely returned to his personal domain,
however, where he gathered his power over time and continued to influence outside dimensions.
Six of his sons, however, were revealed to have survived and- grown by this point into the
deadly sins of man. As their power grew, Trigon's grew weaker, and after his sons captured Raven
in order to open a portal to his realm, Trigon's son siphoned the last of his power, completely
destroying him, only for Trigon's sons to fall to Raven and the Titans soon after. In post-Flashpoint
continuity, Trigon's origin was retconned so that he was once the evil ruler of an unknown
planet in the multiverse. who was visited by a trinity of beings known as the Divine. The
Divine possessed an object known as the Heart of Darkness that they had used on other planets
and galaxies to absorb and eradicate the concept of evil. The Heart of Darkness had no effect
on Trigon, however, who, upon consuming the object, absorbed the evil and power of nearly
100 galaxies, making him the most powerful being in that universe, before murdering and skinning
the Divine. who were then revealed to be his parents. After conquering numerous dimensions,
Trigon impregnated a woman from Earth named Arella, who gave birth to Trigon's first daughter,
Raven, and the two of them hid from Trigon for years in the peaceful dimension of Azeroth.
Eventually, Trigon descended into hell and proclaimed himself among its hierarchy of rulership, gaining
control of a pocket dimension within it known as the Underrealm, or the Dark Dimension. from
which he continues his attempts to corrupt Raven and destroy her world. Powers-wise, Trigon
is one of the most powerful beings in existence, capable of destroying entire planets and conquering
whole dimensions. His strength, speed, and durability are near unmatched in the DC Universe, and
he has a cosmic awareness and telepathic ability that essentially grants him omniscience and
the capability of possessing or mind-controlling nearly anyone. He's capable of casting powerful
illusions, and altering his physical form, allowing him to grow to colossal proportions. He possesses
telekinesis as well as the ability to transmute matter and alter reality, allowing him to distort
space-time or even raise the dead. He can emit eldritch and hellfire energy blasts capable
of destroying planets, and he can generate portals to nearly any location in any dimension. He
can fly and can regenerate from any injury. including the complete annihilation of his
body over time. He's a master of the dark arts and occultism, and though the more power he
uses, the more time he needs to regain his strength. He is made more powerful in the presence of
evil, but also weakened by goodness, purity and holiness. And that's Trigon. Oh, he sounds
pretty powerful, but it's interesting how his greatest enemies are a bunch of teenagers.
Oh, as opposed to Hellcats. His greatest enemy is the freaking Sorcerer Supreme. Yeah, this
Trigon guy doesn't stand a chance. Yeah, the Teen Titans could totally kick the shit out
of the Sorcerer Supreme. Raven alone could kick the shit out of the Sorcerer Supreme. That's
the stupidest thing I've ever heard come out of your mouth. What? You said a lot of dumb
things in the course of this podcast. Raven versus Doctor Strange, let's run the stats,
bro. Come at me, roll up. Oh, I'll take that. I'll take that. Roll up. Roll up on me. No,
we'll do that later. Let's get on to Trigon versus Dormammu.
So we've got those characters' histories and abilities out of the way, let's speculate on
how one of the 1000 simulated matches will go. The winner is determined by simulations, not
this speculation, but it's fun to imagine how this fight could play out. Alfred Jarvis 9000,
what are the rules of our speculation? Well, I should say there are no rules, other than
the characters have no prior knowledge of the other going into the fight. All they are aware
of starting out is that the other character is a threat that needs to be eliminated. For
the speculation, the contestants will begin approximately 50 meters apart in a nondescript
environment that will have no bearing on the match itself, as no environmental statistics
are considered in my simulations. The contestants must earn victory on their own merit. Alright
then let's get into it. Trigon and Dormammu meet on the battlefield. Who goes first? I
mean I'm gonna say Trigon goes first because he's more badass and evil. What now? Dormammu
is gonna look across the battlefield into Trigon's soul. And he's just gonna see a lesser evil
than himself. What? Because he's the true lord of darkness, okay? Dormammu, he's gonna grow
into the size of a goddamn mountain. And he's gonna conjure the flaming sword of the Falteen.
Just, just this massive blade. Okay, meanwhile he just gets blasted with a massive wave of
evil eldritch energy that Trigon spews from his mouth. as he also grows to the size of
a mountain. Okay, but Dormammu is just gonna absorb that dark energy into his sword, and
then he's gonna raise his blade into the sky, which blots out the sun, and turns it into
this black ball of mystic energy. And then Dormammu is gonna point his sword at Trigon, which is
gonna shrink the blackened sun and hurl it right into Trigon. That's right, he just threw the
sun. I mean, that's fine. As the sun is coming at Trigon, he's just gonna... use his claws
to rip open a portal in the fabric of reality to another dimension so that darkened sun is
going to collide with a planet of innocence instead and just destroy it so Dormammu likes
that well so does Trigon because Trigon's gonna absorb the negative emotions from all the millions
of life forms from the planet that just died and he's gonna channel the energy into like
a massive snake like a stone snake that he conjures from the ground beneath them that wraps around
Dormammu and crushes his physical form. Well, Dormammu doesn't really have a physical form.
You know, he's an energy being. What? And he could just easily escape this snake. But instead
of escaping it, Dormammu is gonna transform this stone snake into like a giant, heavy iron
chain that Dormammu is just gonna send out. It's gonna wrap around Trigon and trap him
in a binding spell. Okay. And with Trigon trapped, Dora Mamu is just going to yank Trigon toward
him and just cleave him right in half down the middle with his giant flaming sword. Yeah.
Except that Trigon's just going to stop the blade with his telekinesis and he's going to
grow these massive dragon wings from his back that just shatter that magic chain that was
around him. And with Dora Mamu in close proximity, Trigon's going to use his death stare with
like his extra eyes. You know how he has like six eyes? Well that stair is gonna magically
turn Dormammu's flaming head into ice. And that's gonna spread across his whole body, just freezing
him with the coldness of death. At which point Trigon just shadows Dormammu's body with a
spritin' kick. Okay, uh, Dormammu's body is ice and it's in pieces on the ground, but all
of a sudden these ice chunks turn bright red and they melt, joining together into like this
lake of blood. And uh, from the lake... crawls this army of giant demon skeletons that surround
Trigon and just freaking tear him to pieces. Dang. Okay, well I mean any demon skeletons
that are touching Trigon, all of a sudden each of them gain six glowing eyes. Because that's
right, they're possessed by Trigon now. So they turn around and actually defend Trigon against
the other oncoming skeletons. But also, like Trigon- He's gonna conjure this barbaric black
armor and weaponry for his skeleton crew. So they just whoop the other skeletons asses.
Okay. Except for the last skeleton, because the last remaining skeleton's skull is gonna
suddenly burst into flames and uh, transform into Dormammu. And uh, Dormammu's fiery head
just keeps growing and growing until it just swallows Trigon whole. And then uh- Trigon
finds himself in the realm of darkness, in the dark dimension, where everything's like really
trippy. Oh, Trigon's own dimension. Yeah, that's perfect. No, no, no. Dormammu's dark dimension,
where Dormammu's all powerful. And he's gonna unleash the mindless ones who are indestructible
and relentless, don't like cyclops, what's the plural of cyclops? Cyclopsi. I think it's cyclopes,
actually. Sure. Anyway, they only have one purpose. to destroy everything, and they're gonna destroy
Trigon, who no matter how powerful he is, he's not gonna be able to stop them. I mean, okay,
sure, Trigon isn't able to destroy them, but he can't banish them with a swirling portal
to his dark dimension, where they're just gonna wreck havoc and demolish souls and that's gonna
empower Trigon further, like enough to just shatter Dormammu's entire dimension. which
is gonna fold up into this small black gemstone that Trigon just holds in his hand with like
a little Dormammu screaming inside of it. And with a laugh, Trigon's just gonna crush that
gemstone to dust in his fist. Match over. Trigon just crushed Dormammu's entire dark dimension.
Except you would think that crushing the black gem would just unleash Dormammu, which is what
happens. You fall! What is? Trigon's hand that crushed the gemstone? It's going to turn into
ash and just spreads all across the rest of them as he just gets scattered to the interdimensional
void or wherever they are. And Dormammu is just going to laugh as only his fiery eyes and smile
remain. That's match over. Uh, nah, I'm going to say that's not how the magic works. Like
Dormammu was friggin crushed. That's how Trigon wanted the magic to work. But, you know, he's
just a subpar magician. So, oh my gosh, there you go. We'll go ahead and leave the match
there. Either Trigon collapses Dormammu and his entire dark dimension into a gemstone that
he crushes and destroys, or the very act of crushing it itself causes Trigon to die due
to Dormammu's superior magic. We'll go ahead and see which of these scenarios happens by
plugging in these character stats, running them in 1000 Monte Carlo simulations, and coming
back with a winner. AJ9K, hit it! Inputting data. Running calculations. Processing results.
Simulations complete. All right. This matchup, these guys are fricking off the charts on a
lot of the criteria that we judge standard characters by. Usually your most powerful characters are
able to destroy a city or a planet, you know, but these guys can destroy entire universes
and realities and have done so on multiple occasions. So, you know, it's difficult to quantify. But
overall, we did say that. the characters are actually pretty on par with each other. Yeah,
they're evenly matched in every stat category, which was surprising to me, honestly. I didn't
think they were gonna be so evenly matched, but then again, I didn't know much about Dormammu.
I thought at least Dormammu had Trigon in the fighting skill department, but we've seen Trigon
throw down with some impressive weapons of his own, you know? And I was concerned that Dormammu
was gonna take the intelligence category, considering the original version of Trigon was only hundreds
of years old compared to the millions of years that Dormammu has lived. But it turns out in
the New 52 retcon, Trigon is basically as old as time itself. Even though we all know that
the New 52 is no longer a thing, so pfft, I don't know why we went with that origin. I
don't know, some things have stuck around for a minute. I think Jonathan just likes to pick
and choose the reality that he's pulling from whenever it suits him with a better stat number.
Oh yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Damn cheaters. Actually it stands for damn good continuity. The damn
and good are hyphenated, so it's like one word. Jonathan, given that all the stats for Dormammu
and Trigon were even, including speed, evasiveness, durability, strength, damage, fighting, range,
intellect, perception, and versatility, who do you think's gonna actually win this coin
toss? Please, please let it be Trigon. Please let it be Trigon. Who are you praying to? the
gods of probability, your gods aren't gonna help you here. Geez, these are the dark lords.
I do have to say though that Instagram thinks that Trigon is gonna win because fittingly
66% of our Instagram followers who voted chose him as the winner. And I'd like to think it's
66.6%. I think we just have too many Instagram followers who are DC fans. If you're a Marvel
fan and you're on Instagram, be sure to follow us. I just think it's because Trigon looks
a lot cooler than Dormammu. Cause Dormammu just looks like a fucking matchstick. As compared
to Trigon who looks like a legit devil. Well let's see who won between the matchstick and
the devil. AJ9K, the results please. Hey Yuasa. Alright, the winner between Dormammu and Trigon
is... DORMAMU! Fucking dumb! That's right! It was close though, obviously, because it was
a coin toss. Dormammu out of 1000 matches won 507, whereas Trigon only won 493. So it was
50.7% to 49.3%. Dormammu won 14 more matches out of 1000. I mean, I feel like even if Trigon
came out ahead in these particular simulations, I would still feel underwhelmed. Like I feel
like we did not get an answer as to who would really win, because in reality, it's unknowable.
They're essentially the same character. It is noble math knows we ran the simulations. Dormammu
won. OK, run them again. We only run them once. What are you talking about? I'll freaking do
it. I'll run them again. Dang it.
Run them again. What is going on? Oh, here we go. Try God wins 501 matches. Boom. All right.
Then we'll consider the two of wash and then we'll say that Dormammu won 506 matches.
Whatever. Dormammu comes out on top and Trigon be bygons. Yeah, that makes sense. I don't
know if that made sense. No, it didn't. That is it for this duel. Let's know what you thought
about the stupid results by writing to us at dynamic duel podcast at gmail.com or by visiting
us on Instagram or X. You can find links to all of our accounts by checking out our show
notes or visiting our website at dynamic duel dot com. And on our site you can also find
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In our next episode, we're going to get good friend of the show and executive producer John
Swarovski on as a guest and we're going to review and discuss the 2011 film Ghostwriter Spirit
of Vengeance. Which I have not seen yet. I will be watching it this week for the first time.
But that does it for this episode. We want to give a big thanks to our executive producers.
Ken Johnson, John Sturowski, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Belcombe, Miggy Mathangian, Brandon
Estergard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Nick Abonto, Austin Wazilowski, AJ Dunkerley, Scott
Camacho, Adam Spies, and Andrew Schunk for helping make this podcast possible. We'll talk to you
guys next week. Up up and away, true believers. The Demon Code prevents me from declining the
Rock Off Challenge.