This is a DynaMic Network podcast.
Welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate
the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in stat-based battle simulations.
I'm Johnny DC. And I'm his twin brother, Marvelous Joe. And in this episode, we are doing a throwback
review to the 1993 animated theatrical film, Batman, Mask of the Phantasm. We were interested
in reviewing it now. because we just got done reviewing X-Men 97. And of course, both that
cartoon and Batman, the animated series for which this film is a tie in to were both popular
Saturday morning cartoons that a lot of us 90s kids grew up with. Yeah, it's a nostalgia episode.
The question is, does Batman mask the phantasm hold up to the animated series in the same
way that X-Men 97 held up to the 90s series? We'll find out later on this episode. Before
that we're going to break down the comic book movie news from this past week, of which there
was only one major news item, and that was the trailer for Venom 3. There was some casting
announcements made for the new Superman movie, but other than Beck Bennett as Steve Lombard,
I didn't really have too much to say about the casting choices. But as always, we list our
segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if you
want to skip ahead to a particular topic. Our artificially intelligent duel simulator AJ9K
has a quick message for our listeners, so listen up. Why hello there, do you want even more
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On the Sanjo World podcast, host Zachary Heppard speculates on fights between fan favorite anime
and manga characters. The show is currently on a season hiatus, so this is the perfect
time for you anime fans to catch up on Sanjo World's 40 episode library. And on the Console
Combat podcast, hosts John and Dean find out who would win in fights between popular video
game characters. In yesterday's episode, they found out who would win in a fight- between
Mr. Incredible from the Incredibles video game against the Thing from, I'm guessing the 2005
Fantastic Four movie tie-in video game, or maybe like the Thing from the Marvel Nemesis game.
I'm not sure. Either way, sounds like a great matchup. Visit dynamicpodcasts.com or click
the link in our show notes to listen to all of the shows in the DynaMic Podcast Network.
But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize. A no prize is an award Marvel used to
give out to fans. Our version, the Dynamic Duel No Prize, is a digital award we post on Instagram
for the person that we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week's question
was, who's your favorite Green Lantern and why? And of course this was coming off of the news
that the showrunners for the upcoming Lanterns television series in the DCU was Damon Lindelof
and Chris Mundy. We got four different answers for this week's question, so we're going to
break down our honorable mentions before announcing this week's No Prize winner. Our first honorable
mention goes to Judson Batty who said, Hi guys, Judson Batty here. I'd say my favorite Green
Latin is Sinestro. I feel like the stories when he is a Green Latin and not yellow in the Sinestro
core just some of the most interesting, whether it's the early ones where he's training how
Jordan or prequels with Abin Suh. or even the new 52 when he gets the Green Lantern ring
back. I feel like they just make for a really interesting reads because it really pushes
the boundaries of what the ring and the core allow to happen. Good to hear from you again,
Jutsson from the land down under. For everyone who is confused by us claiming that Jutsson
was from Austria or from New Zealand, those people need to watch Dumb and Dumber and Flight
of the Conchords. Yeah, totally. But his answer of Sinestro is actually an interesting one,
considering Sinestro is, of course, one of the lead enemies, if not the lead enemy. of the
Green Lantern Corps. He started off as a Green Lantern but then defected, and recently for
a time came back to being a Green Lantern, and even a White Lantern. He's a very complex character,
if you don't know too much about him, I definitely suggest listening to our Sinestro vs Magneto
duel episode. Yeah, he trained Hal Jordan. He was, I think, really good friends with Abin
Sur, who was Hal Jordan's predecessor. And that's pretty much what I remember from your backstory
on him, Jonathan. Wow, you also need to go back and listen to that episode. That was like five
years ago. Come on, give me a break. Good answer, Judson. Our next honorable mention goes to
Mickey Mathingian, who said, it was because of Mickey and my favorite Green Lantern is
Jon Stewart. I think you guys have asked this before, but I'm going to answer it again. He
was my favorite because of the Justice League cartoon. I grew up on that. So he was like
the first Green Lantern I was introduced to. I also just really like his story. with him
being one of DC's first African-American superheroes and the fictional backstory, too, with him
being an architect and a really good sniper. Yeah, thanks, guys. Yeah, I didn't grow up
really with the Justice League cartoon that was a little bit after my time when I was in
high school. So I never really considered Jon Stewart to be like the Green Lantern. But just
from doing this podcast and doing research on the various Green Lanterns for our duel episodes.
Jon Stewart has become my personal favorite Green Lantern. It used to be Kyle Raynor and
then it was Hal Jordan, but I just love the backstory of Jon Stewart, how he's this Green
Lantern of prophecy and yet his military and architecture background kind of blend the best
of all worlds for each of the human Green Lantern characters. If we were left with just one human
Green Lantern, I would definitely pick Jon Stewart. I would agree. I think... between the recent
Green Lantern vs. Quasar episode we did and the Green Lantern Beware My Power animated
feature film. I think Jon Stewart has quickly become my favorite Green Lantern as well. Fantastic
answer, Miggy. Our final honorable mention goes to Cyrus Moore, who said, Hey guys, Cyrus Moore
here. Although my favorite Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner, I feel like he's gonna be a popular
answer. So therefore I'd like to go with Reloc Hag, who is just a really cool Lantern to start
with. He's an alpha lantern. He has a really interesting backstory. He's a centaur. I mean,
you can't get any better than that. Okay, I'm not gonna lie. I had to Google this guy. I
know nothing about him other than he looks like a total badass. Seriously, he has one of the
coolest designs out of any Green Lantern ever. Like I know the Green Lanterns span all the
races in the galaxy and the universe, but this particular centaur race is just a really cool
design. Reloc Hag, it's spelled R-E-L-O-K. H-A-G. If you don't know him, look him up. I think
you'll be similarly impressed. And the fact that he's an alpha lantern, like that just
gives him some extra cred in my book because those guys are awesome. The hell is an alpha
lantern? They're kind of described as the internal affairs of the green lanterns, but they're
essentially elite lanterns. Interesting. Now, Cyrus also mentioned Kyle Rayner, who was your
initial favorite Green Lantern, Jonathan? Yes, yeah, he was the Green Lantern that I personally
grew up with in the comics when I began reading DC Comics. He was, in fact, the only Green
Lantern that existed at that time. So he was my favorite by default. So, great answer, Cyrus.
But the winner of this week's No Prize is... Peter Trull, who said... What's up, Dynamic
Dudes, it's Peter. Uh, my favorite Green Lantern has got to be... Hal Jordan easily. He's the
one I grew up on the most and he's literally one of the greatest lanterns of all time. He's
mentioned in different comics, several of them, that he is the greatest lantern. Not even greatest
green lantern, but other lanterns of all the lantern core. Like he is the best. So what
else would you think other than Hal Jordan as the best green lantern of all time? Thanks
guys. So the only reason we didn't give the no prize to Miggie for his answer of Jon Stewart
is because one, I think We have in fact asked this question before, and two, because Hal
Jordan is the iconic Green Lantern. As much as I like Jon Stewart, I have to admit that
when it comes to other forms of media and just, you know, the public perception of the character
with the movie and everything, yeah, everyone knows Hal Jordan as the quintessential Green
Lantern. The dude can wield basically any ring and is just a master of it. I remember you
had a graphic novel called Green Lantern Fear itself, in which there was a segment at the
end where Kyle Rayner and Alan Scott were discussing the greatest Green Lantern of all time, and
they were talking about how Hal Jordan was the best of them. He was, you know, the specter
at the time, he was dead. But I always think back to that when I think about the greatest
Green Lanterns and how if you were to ask the core themselves who the best among them is,
a lot of them would actually pick Hal Jordan. Yeah, maybe. Or they'd be like... Oh, that
guy who killed all of us? Fuck that guy. He redeemed himself. He's all good. He's good.
He was possessed. What are you gonna do? That's true. But great answer, Peter. You win this
week's note prize. If you're the listener, want a shot at winning your own note prize. Stay
tuned to later on in this episode when we'll be asking another question of the week. And
now that that's done, on to the news.
This past week we got the first official trailer for the Venom The Last Dance movie which is
coming out in October. And right off the bat I just want to talk about my kind of love-hate
relationship with the Venom franchise because I actually really liked the first Venom movie.
As you will learn if you listen to our review I think we gave it about three and a half stars
and then I really disliked the Venom sequel Let There Be Carnage which I think we gave
about two or two and a half stars in our review. This third movie is really just a big question
mark as to whether or not it'll be closer to the first film and what made that so enjoyable
or closer to the second film which was kind of a dumpster fire. And honestly, I couldn't
really tell you judging off of this trailer. It kind of looks like it's a mix of both. There
are some great moments where we see Venom take on a group of criminals running a dog fighting
ring it looks like. The intro to this trailer was really fantastic. But then there were like
these jokes that were sprinkled through that it made me think of the second movie. And one
of the biggest criticisms we had of Venom let there be carnage is that Venom became a parody
of himself. You know, it's always kind of cute and fun to make Venom a quirky character. But
these filmmakers have to understand that they have to do it within reason. You know, if Venom
starts making too many jokes. then he doesn't really feel like who he is from the comics.
You know, the jokes have to be used sparingly and that's how you get the most out of them.
Yeah, I've never really saw Venom as a comedic character. So I was actually taken aback by
the first movie and pretty much despised the second. There are jokes sprinkled in this trailer,
but by this time I'm familiar enough with what they're going with to not entirely hate it.
Honestly, the first time I saw this trailer, I couldn't tell if it was gonna be like over
the top ambitious or actually more low key. It looks like the primary antagonists of this
movie are going to be General Orwell Taylor. It looks like played by Chiwetel Ejiofor who
is in charge of like this elite military symbiote hunting squad called the jury. In the comic
books, the jury were like a bunch of Iron Man knockoffs. Like they literally stole blueprints
to the Iron Man suit and then made their own venom fighting suits of armor. But here they
look a little bit more generic. I'm not sure if that's them being carried on that helicopter
and then being dropped into the water to fight Venom, but it really looks like that's who
they are. In addition to the jury and General Taylor, it looks like we're also getting other
symbiotes and the xenophage who are alien monsters that actually feed off of symbiotes. We see
one attack Venom on top of an airplane, which was a pretty crazy looking scene. So it's interesting
that Venom is kind of facing threats from both sides. The humans coming after him in the form
of General Taylor and the jury and the clintar coming after him in the form of other symbiotes
in the xenophage. So Eddie Brock looks like he's being put through the wringer even more
so than he usually is in these films and you know, he goes through a lot physically throughout
the course of this franchise. And Tom Hardy I think does a fantastic job of portraying
the wear and tear that the symbiote takes on his body and the duelity of the character and
everything. And that's definitely one of the things I'm looking forward to the most and
seeing. in this upcoming movie because these characters have been through a lot together.
Yeah, Eddie Brock and the symbiote, there's a bromance there. It's almost like a buddy
comedy in a way that the way they play off each other. And there were definitely some like
iconic scenes in this trailer that kind of played up on that with like Eddie Brock trying to
master the we are venom line with venom. That was weird because they did it correctly in
the first movie. So you think they would, you know, have it down already. That's true. But
also, I'm thinking of Eddie Brock riding the venom symbiote horse. That was pretty cool.
I remember there was a moment in the Venom comics when Flash Thompson was Agent Venom. He had
acquired the symbiote at the time and he had used the symbiote in a bunch of weird ways,
including some ways that I hate. Like he turned a car that he was driving into the Venomobile
by having the symbiote take over the car, which I thought was kind of bullshit because a car
is not an organic being. The way they had the symbiote take over a horse makes so much more
sense to me and I think just works. really well. I can't wait to see the venom horse in the
movie. How do you feel about General Taylor apparently being a variant of Baron Mordo?
Because of the casting? Yeah. That's a little weird right? You know if we're talking about
the multiverse, there's a very strange shot in this trailer that I know a lot of people
are talking about where we see General Taylor acquire the sample from the bar in Mexico that
Eddie Brock left behind in the end credits scene for Spider-Man No Way Home. Apparently that
piece of symbiote was left behind in the Marvel Cinematic Universe apart from the Sonyverse
and yet we see General Taylor somehow acquiring that sample. It's really unclear what's going
on here, whether or not Eddie Brock leaving the sample behind in the MCU is going to be
retconned to have been actually left behind in the Sonyverse or what the hell is going
on? Who the hell knows? Yeah, Marvel and Sony's relationship right now is like really weird.
It's like, are they together? Aren't they? It's a situationship, as the kids are saying these
days, and that extends into, you know, the upcoming Spider-Man four and everything like that. But
I'm really interested in seeing how this movie even pertains to the multiverse or if it even
does. And if so, how Tom Holland is going to get the symbiote, if he will. If that's going
to happen in Secret War, that would be really cool. But yeah, we'll see what happens. It
was really cool to see Detective Mulligan back as Toxin, although we didn't get to see him
in his Toxin form in this trailer. But we know that he acquired the symbiote, which was an
offshoot of the Carnage symbiote in the last movie. It'll be interesting to see how he factors
into the story, whether or not, you know, like he's the one that's reaching out to the Klintar
home planet and bringing all these aliens or not. but he does say that as long as Venom
lives, everyone, everything will end. So the trailer really tries to sell us on the idea
that Venom or Eddie Brock may be dying in this movie. I'm not really buying it. You know,
even the poster says, till death do they part. I don't think either Eddie Brock or Venom are
actually dying, but it is a great way to try to, you know, convince people to come see it
in the theaters, considering that most likely, you know, this will be the last Venom movie.
I'm really hoping though that he still shows up maybe in a Spider-Man movie, but we'll see.
Yeah, anytime studios say that something is the and now, I'm like, but is it? I mean, Hugh
Jackman's coming back as Wolverine. Right. Yeah, that can happen. Anything can happen. But again,
the movie comes out on October 25th of this year. We'll see if it's more of the first Venom
movie or more like the second Venom movie as it closes out this trilogy of films. But speaking
of trilogies, that brings us to our question of the week.
What Marvel or DC character do you think has had the most successful trilogy of films and
why? And we'll go ahead and count characters that have had four films, such as Thor or Superman,
you know, just count like the first three films of their franchise, and we want to know which
one you thought was the best. And that includes old franchises too. Can't wait to hear you
guys' answers! Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the red microphone button in
the bottom right-hand corner of the screen. which will prompt you to leave us a voicemail.
Your message could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave your name in case
we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and award that person a dynamic
duel no prize that we'll post to Instagram. Be sure to answer before June 15th.
That does it for all the news for this episode, now let's go ahead and move on to the main
event where we review the 1993 animated film, Batman Mask of the Phantasm.
Alright, Batman Mask of the Phantasm was a 1993 animated film that, unlike a vast majority
of DC's animated projects, had a theatrical release. It was a feature film tie-in to the
popular 90s animated television series, and though I didn't see this movie in theaters
when it came out, I became aware of the critical hype surrounding this film as I got older and
still saw the movie when I was relatively young. This was after I read Frank Miller's Batman
Year One comic arc, however, which came out in 1987. When the movie came out in 1993, Mask
of the Phantasm was the closest thing non-comic readers had to an origin of sorts for how Bruce
Wayne became Batman until Batman Begins. In my opinion though, and this is the same opinion
I had when I first saw the movie, Phantasm is kinda over-hyped and comparatively not as good
as Batman Year One, Batman Begins, and other tales of Batman's origin. It's also not terrible,
however. It's not bad. It's actually pretty good. I want to be clear. I'd still recommend
it to people, so if you haven't seen it yet, you should consider checking it out before
we get into spoilers in this review. Yeah, I mean, if you're a 90s kid, you most certainly
have already seen this film because it was pretty ubiquitous along with the television show back
when we were children. I think we first saw this movie at home back in the glory days of
VHS. Yes, yeah, I think that's correct. Just for some quick backstory regarding the film,
Mask of the Phantasm was made because Warner Brothers sought to capitalize on the success
Fox was having with the WB Batman character in Batman the Animated Series, which Warner
Brothers let Fox use for that series and which debuted on television a year prior to this
film's release. The film was originally intended to be released directly to video, though halfway
through production, Warner Bros. decided to release the film in theaters, forcing the animators
to meet a highly aggressive production schedule. And for as much praise as I've seen critics
give this film in regards to its stylish animation, I feel like they just hadn't seen much animation
back then in general. Because by this point, we'd already had groundbreaking animated films
like Akira and Mask of the Phantasm seems super basic in comparison. Well... Yeah, there was
a lot of 80s anime stuff that was truly groundbreaking in how they approached more mature subject
matter in the medium of animated film. This movie was animated exactly like how the Saturday
Morning Cartoon was, maybe with a little bit more detail and frames and everything like
that. But I think if you had never been exposed to that sort of 1940s minimalistic style, you
would still be impressed by it. Yeah, I've seen a few critics. praise its Art Deco style, but
I'm like, well, have you not been watching the cartoon? Because it's there as well. It's awesome.
I agree. Bruce Tim's style will always be iconic to me. The Art Deco style is one of my favorite
styles by far. And while I'm glad that we've kind of moved past it, I understand why it
became so influential to a lot of DC animated work in the following decades. Yeah, that sort
of retrofuturism is a pretty awesome style that I think suits DC really well. Now from start
to finish, the entire film was completed in only eight months, which is insane. It's actually
pretty interesting. Half the movie was animated in a 4-3 aspect ratio intended for squarish
television screens from that time. So to meet the animation deadline, the production studios
had to simply crop their work into a wider 16 by 9 ratio for theater screens. So there's
a lot that was animated that was left on the cutting room floor of sorts. but that full
version is a special feature on the digital and disc versions of the movie. I like watching
it in the 4-3 ratio largely because I don't think the scale of the film really suits a
theatrical format. To me, this movie always played like an extended two or three part television
series episode. Yes, I agree. I definitely agree. There was just a kind of a lack of spectacle.
As good as the story is, I just don't think it holds a candle to some of the spectacles
that we get from animated films. But certainly today, but you know, even in the early 2000s
and stuff. Yeah, it's lacking spectacle. It's lacking a number of things. I've always felt
like the Batman mask of the fantasy movie was missing something. And in doing my research
for this review, I realized what that was. Arguably, you could say fantasy was a work of corporate
passion rather than artistic passion. Bruce Timm created Batman the animated series to
tell Batman's iconic comic stories in a similar fashion as the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons
that he grew up with. But Phantasm was something of a cash grab by Warner Brothers in the same
way the Hobbit films or the Matrix Resurrections or the Fantastic Beasts films were. Those films
just lacked the same creative spirit and life that the filmmakers breathed into the films
that inspired those other works. I think that's especially evident in Mask of the Phantasm
because none of the story elements ended up being carried over to the animated series itself.
Because there are a lot of unanswered questions by the end of the film that good writers, if
they cared enough, would have answered, such as, you know, where did Andrea Beaumont get
her powers? Or why did Bruce specifically choose the symbol of the bat? Or even what happened
to Joker at the end of the film? Yeah, there were a lot of, I guess, plot holes, you could
call them, although they didn't like hamper the story. I guess they're more unanswered
questions that were left unresolved. So a lack of closure. I also wondered things like why
did Andrea even court Councilman Reeves and why didn't she kill him? Basically, considering
that he gave up her father. I think it was her plan to kill him if the Joker hadn't already
gotten to him. That's just speculation, though. That's a good question. Maybe she knew the
Joker would go after him. Who knows? Right. Now. If the film doesn't succeed in my opinion
in regards to story or animation, one of several things it does succeed in is the theme, particularly
vengeance and duty. For both Batman and the Phantasm, the film presents these parallel
arcs, these internal struggles for both of the titular characters that highlight the conflict
between personal fulfillment and societal obligation in their individuel pursuits of justice. most
interesting thing about this film to me are the questions it posits about Batman's nature.
Now the filmmakers initially denied it, but much of the story from this film was borrowed
from the comic book storyline Batman Year 2, in which Batman fought a skull mask wearing,
scythes for hands vigilante that turned out to be the father of a woman Bruce Wayne proposed
to. Spoilers, if you haven't read that, sorry. But it was so obvious that that's where they
got a lot of the story from that the writer of Batman year two Mark Barr Approached to
DC Comics president Paul Levitz about it and Levitz actually agreed to give Barr a portion
of the film's earnings as well As financial credit for the creation of the Phantasm character,
which is pretty cool Now the Phantasm never appeared in the mainstream comics until recently
introduced in a run by Tom King Who has also largely run with the same themes presented
in Mask of the Phantasm such as whether or not Batman can ever find love, get married, be
happy, and still be Batman. But let's touch more on Batman and the themes in the character
breakdown. Now Batman slash Bruce Wayne was voiced by Kevin Conroy, who, as we've stated
numerous times on this podcast, is perfect as Batman. And this film showcases one of the
best examples of the heart and emotion he was capable of bringing to the role. Yeah, I don't
think we've ever seen Batman as emotional as he was in this story. You know, usually he's
kind of a stoic badass, but in this, you know, we actually see him cry, you know, and he's
like weeping and like pleading with his dead parents and everything like that. So, this
movie is just a testament to Kevin Conroy. This was actually early in his Batman career and
he went on to, you know, really define the character I think for a lot of people. Rest in peace.
Yes, RIP Kevin Conroy. Now in the film, Bruce grapples with his identity as Batman and his
desire for a normal life with his former fiancee, Andrea Beaumont. When Bruce's past with Andrea
resurfaces, he's forced to confront these unresolved emotions regarding his own personal desires
and how they conflict with his sense of duty as Gotham's protector. Ultimately, Bruce accepts,
albeit- reluctantly perhaps that the sacrifices inherent to his role as Batman, this duty to
Gotham City and vengeful crusade, transcends his own happiness. And the arc of him realizing
that was a pretty profound one I would say in this movie, and again a very emotional one.
The line of him at his parents grave where he's saying I never expected to be happy or something
along those lines was unbelievable. And still watching the film to this day kind of gets
me the fact that this guy would sacrifice his life essentially to protecting others is like
the definition of heroism. It was really tragic that moment when he was basically, you know,
begging his parents to break his promise to them. and step away from the role of Batman
and be happy with a wife and family and everything like that. It was particularly tragic because
you can assume, especially as a parent, that Batman is not what the Waynes would want for
their son Bruce. You know, they would actually want him to be happy and to move on from the
tragedy of their deaths and not be so affected by it. And so, when he's essentially pleading
with them to like let him do that, you have to imagine the Waynes. being like, of course,
but he won't let himself break his own promise that he made. Right, because he's so unbelievably
dedicated to that vow and to his cause. It's a very, very interesting character study. And
I think that, you know, goes to show why the character is so popular. That sort of exploration
isn't something that has been explored much for the character that I think warrants further
exploration, for sure. I think they attempted it in the Nolan films, especially The Dark
Knight Rises. but not to the same level of success I would argue as Batman Mask of the Phantasm.
This idea that Batman has an ending is not terribly attractive. I want Batman to continue his crusade
forever because I think that's heroic and I think giving that up is not heroic. And maybe
that's selfish of me, but it's just this ideal that Batman represents that is attractive in
a way. Well, you've always said that you like your DC characters because they're aspirational
and more symbols than they are characters. And I think Batman giving up his crusade to actually
be happy would make him more relatable and therefore more of a Marvel character. So I think maybe
that's your own bias. Maybe. I mean, do you want to see Batman give up his crusade? I don't
give a fuck about Batman. Geez! Whatever. Moving on to Andrea Beaumont, aka the Phantasm. She
was voiced by Dana Delaney. Now this was several years prior to her voicing Lois Lane in Superman
the Animated Series. So I'm sure there was not a problem with her voice when this hit theaters,
but holy crap, all I could hear was Lois Lane watching this now. And she did a great job
in the role, don't get me wrong, but her voice is extremely recognizable and it did present
a challenge for me in watching this film once again. Character wise, they were both, you
know, these spunky romantic interests. And yeah, I just, I just kind of shake it. It's like,
oh, it's, it's Lois Lane. My brain was just thinking that the whole time. That too time
in... Now we know where she went off to in the boat. She went to go get a die job and moved
to Metropolis. Change her name. Boom. Now, though we don't know it for most of the film, Andrea's
arc revolves around themes of loss and vengeance, much like Batman's. She's driven by this desire
for retribution against the mobsters responsible for her father's death and adopts the persona
of the Phantasm to exact justice. But in contrast to Batman, Andrea lacks his morality and is
willing to kill and lie to loved ones including Bruce himself, manipulating him to prevent
him from stopping her mission. The thing is, despite this, Andrea is still a sympathetic
character. because it clearly shows in the movie how the mob took literally everything from
her, including the life of her father. Alfred describes vengeance in the movie as a soul-destroying
abyss that Bruce skirts the edge of every day and that Andrea fell into long ago. I think
she recognized this as well, which is why she chose not to be with Bruce at the end of the
film. She's a study on what would happen, I think, if Batman started killing people like
the Joker. Right. he would kind of lose himself and become a serial killer, really. How could
he not? Like, he's so effective at what he does, it would be so easy for him to do that. And
once he did it once, you'd figure he'd be like, oh, it's very easy to do this. It's just, yeah,
a bad path to go down. That being said, I still think he should do it. But we've had this discussion
a million times before. If you want to hear more about this discussion, listen to our review
of Batman Under the Red Hood because they really get into it deep in that story. Yes, absolutely.
Also, you're fucking evil, bro. I think it's evil to not kill him. Well, you're wrong. Anyway,
now one of my biggest problems with this film is something I noticed even as a child watching
this for the first time. And that's how the hell did Andrea get her powers. Like intangibility
and teleportation are pretty impressive feats. You'd think Batman's first question upon learning
she was the Phantasm would have been, dude. Teach me. I mean, we all know that Batman seemingly
teleports when like people have their backs turned. We know he just kind of like scampers
off and hides. So people think that he just vanishes out of thin air, but we literally
see the phantasm character disappear completely in a puff of smoke. There's no other way around
it except teleportation. So she's doing something we're here. Maybe she got into like the occult
or something. That's the idea that I have in the back of my head. Oh, interesting. I always
assumed it was technology. Why did I never assume it was magic? That's a good answer. And it's
my new headcanon, so thanks for that. There you go. But another thing that really bothers
me about this film is the twist is so obvious. And this has bothered me about other Batman
stories such as like Hush, where the newly introduced friend of Bruce Wayne is also the newly introduced
villain. Even as a kid, I was like, I bet you that's Andrea. And I was fucking right. I was
a smart kid. Moving on to the Joker, voiced by Mark Hamill. Again, we've said so many great
things about Mark Hamill's performance as the Joker. Like Kevin Conroy for Batman, he is
the quintessential Joker voice. Yeah, I think we spoke a lot about him in the Killing Joke
animated movie review that we did. This performance is also... pretty early in Mark Hamill's career
as the Joker. And it's just amazing to see how consistent these guys were throughout the decades.
Oh yeah, for sure. So the first time we see the Joker, we don't know it. He's an anonymous
mob lackey of Salvatore Valestra. There's been a number of ways that writers have tried to
tie the Joker into Batman's origin throughout the years, you know, for making him the one
who murdered the Waynes in the 1989 Batman film. or causing a citywide riot that resulted in
the Wayne's death in the Joker movie. In this film, he wasn't involved in the deaths of the
Waynes that we know of, but he represented a threat to the object of Bruce's desire and
happiness, namely, Andrea, which if Bruce had been allowed to keep, he would not have become
Batman. And honestly, that's as direct an influence to Batman's origin as I'd personally care for
the Joker to have. Yeah, I remember that the Joker was in this movie from watching it as
a kid, but I couldn't remember in the course of the film how and why and when he shows up.
Now he doesn't actually show up until like a little bit past halfway through the runtime,
if I'm not mistaken. And I thought his presence was actually sorely missed because once he
shows up, I think the film starts firing on all cylinders, but before that the pacing was
a little bit slow. I was really glad to have Joker in this movie. Yeah, originally he wasn't
going to be in the movie, but they found a way to organically bring him in. And I gotta say,
I love it. Now, as we've mentioned before, people have always wondered why Batman doesn't kill
the Joker, and interestingly enough, in this film, Joker actually seems somewhat threatened
by the Phantasm when he confronts Councilman Reeves because he knows he was one of the mobsters
that the Phantasm might be after. I feel like this is the first time I've seen the Joker
threatened by a ghost from his past. And I just thought that was fascinating. Yeah, the Joker
never really fears any of the consequences to his actions because he knows that Batman will
never kill him. So he kind of feels like he has the freedom to do what he wants. And in
a way, he's kind of right. So when he is faced with death, he of course, you know, goes above
and beyond to eliminate that threat. Whereas with Batman, he never truly wants to kill Batman,
he would rather corrupt him. It is kind of cool that he tries to do that using his secret lair.
made out of the ruins of the Gotham World Fair. I thought that was a nice little setting that
they incorporated into this film. Yeah, absolutely. It was a great place for a final climactic
battle, the way Joker was able to utilize all the different toys and stuff around him. I
loved that like, knife chopping robot. I loved like, the miniature Gotham City. It was all
pretty great stuff.
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Moving on to the story highlights, the film opens with the opening credits, just want to
touch on those briefly. It's a CG rendition of the animated Gotham Cityscape, and it's
actually pretty awesome. Of course, it's made even better by Shirley Walker's iconic animated
series score, which sets the perfect tone for a Batman movie. It almost makes you wish that
they had taken bigger swings with the animation, right? Because we have this really cool animated
setup into the film, and then all of a sudden it goes back to standard Saturday morning cartoon
fare. But at least if they had kept the environment CG or something like that, I think it would
have felt like a more true theatrical experience. Yeah, I mean, CG was pretty new to that time.
So I think that probably would have been more of a challenge for them. I could be wrong.
But yeah, I think that also would have been cool. I wonder why they didn't take that 3D
model that they had created of Gotham City and then incorporate it into the television series
kind of the same way they did with the Spider-Man animated television show in the 90s where they
had a 3D model of New York that they would keep revisiting as he was like swinging through
the streets or to use as a transition between scenes and stuff like that. I think it makes
sense for the character of Spider-Man. You really didn't have those transitional scenes with
Batman in his series. I'm not sure it would have been necessary. Although, you know, honestly...
If they thought of that, they probably could have found a way to make it work. I'm sure
for audience members in the theater at the time, it was like breathtaking because you have to
remember this was pre mainstream CG animated films, like pre Toy Story. Right. So, yeah,
I bet it was really cool. Now, moving on to the plot. Well, Batman confronts a gang of
mobsters led by Chucky Saul for counterfeiting. Chucky flees only to be encountered and killed
by a new enigmatic vigilante known as the Phantasm. whose silhouette resembles Batman's, resulting
in witnesses blaming Batman for Chucky's murder. Amidst a public censure from city councilman
Arthur Reeves, Batman analyzes a shard of glass with a chemical residue from the Phantasm's
signature smokey aura, while Andrea Boumont, Bruce's former fiancé, returns to Gotham after
years of being away. And this is sort of like the first plot hole. The fact that Andrea was
already in Gotham as the Phantasm, and yet we see a scene of her arriving via plane. It's
supposed to be this misdirect that actually just results in confusion later on. Well, Batman
addresses it. He's like, you came into Gotham early. Seemingly, she came in by boat and then
she probably left by boat and then came in by plane. But like, why would that matter to someone
who wasn't specifically following her movements? You know? a little bit strange. Do you think
that Andrea specifically designed her phantasm outfit to resemble Batman and therefore be
confused for him by eyewitnesses? Well that's a good question. I don't know it's possible
although I don't really think she had a vendetta against Batman per se so I think she was honestly
just trying to scare people in the same way that Batman was trying to scare people. She
wouldn't have been familiar with Batman because she had been away from Gotham for so long.
It just kind of turned into this kind of shitty coincidence for Batman. Now regarding the suit,
I didn't really touch on her appearance. I thought the design of the Phantasm was actually pretty
bomb. Again, it's inspired somewhat by the Grim Reaper character from Batman Year 2, but I
think that further went on to inspire Asriel's look from the comics. I thought Asriel predates
the Phantasm. He does, but I don't think that costume does, because for the longest time,
Asriel wore like a cybernetic Batman suit. Asriel being the guy who took over for Batman after
his back was broken by Bane. Yes, if you want to learn more about him, check out our Asriel
vs. Blade episode. During a party at Wayne Manor, Bruce is accosted by an old romantic fling
and reminded of Andrea by Councilman Reeve, who unbeknownst to Bruce... has been talking
with Andrea. Bruce reminisces in a flashback to the time he first met Andrea in a cemetery
while visiting his parents' grave. That same evening, Bruce begins his masked vigilante
career, stopping a group of bandits, though facing significant resistance and getting injured
in the process. Recognizing he needs to strike fear in criminals to have an advantage over
them, Bruce nonetheless becomes distracted by Andrea when she visits him during his training.
and the two share their first kiss. Now an interesting note for the flashbacks in this film, they
were inspired by Citizen Kane. I could see that for sure. Yeah, yeah, me too. Right when I
read that I was like, oh yeah. If you're not familiar with Citizen Kane, it's an old film
by Orson Welles, black and white, but it's highly regarded by a majority of film critics as the
greatest film that's ever been made. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much I buy into the
idea of it being inspired by Citizen Kane, because then you could say like all flashbacks are
inspired by Citizen Kane, but the kind of 1940s Art Deco feel of Mask of the Phantasm kind
of easily lends itself to those comparisons to Citizen Kane. Yeah, and sort of like the
main character being this sort of tortured billionaire. Yeah. I think if any comics character is going
to have a film based on Citizen Kane, it's definitely Batman. I think that was a really smart decision.
to take inspiration for the filmmakers. Or Tony Stark. Yeah, Tony Stark could go fuck himself.
WHAT? I SAID IT! Anyway, back to the present, mob boss Buzz Bronski visits the grave of Chuckie
Saul at the cemetery, where he's confronted and killed by the Phantasm. Batman is blamed
by the press once again to the dismay of both Mob Boss Salvatore Velestra and Councilman
Reeves, the latter of whom presses Police Commissioner James Gordon to go after Batman, though Gordon
refuses. While Batman investigates the cemetery for clues, he finds more chemical residue before
finding his parents' grave, where he's caught by Andrea, who realizes Batman must be Bruce.
Maybe a little bit of a stretch, but yeah, he shouldn't have been at his frickin' parents'
grave. Rookie move. I gotta say earlier on in the story when we see that Batman year one
moment where Bruce Wayne is kinda trying his hand at being a vigilante the first time. It
was quite comical to see him attempt that outside of the Batman costume, where he's just some
like guy who shows up and he's like, Hey guys, stop it. And like their reaction to him was
actually kind of funny. They're like, who's this guy? Right. Absolutely. To all the haters
who are like, Oh, Batman's so dumb. He's a guy wearing a bat costume. Have you considered
the alternative? I think this is a perfect example of that. Just how ridiculous it is. You better
listen to me or else. He's much better as this haunting mythical creature of the night for
sure. Batman spies on Andrea as she dines with Councilman Reeves. In a flashback, we see his
and Andrea's romance bloom as they visit a futurism exhibit at the Gotham World Fair. Andrea later
introduces Bruce to her father, Carl Beaumont, whom Bruce learns handles the finances for
Salvatore Valestra and for whom a younger Arthur Reeves worked for as a lawyer. As Bruce and
Andrea leave her father's office, they encounter a biker gang robbing a civilian on the street.
When Bruce intervenes, he becomes distracted by Andrea and gets injured, allowing the biker
gang to get away with the money. Realizing he can't pursue the life of vigilantism that he
vowed on his parents' grave and simultaneously lead a fulfilling, happy life with Andrea,
the tormented Bruce visits his parents' grave, where Andrea finds and comforts him. Best scene
of the whole movie. Yeah. Do you think that maybe Batman would just be more effective if
he wasn't distracted by his girlfriend while trying to fight crime? Like maybe he could
have it both ways and he's just kind of being dumb? Well, that's a good question. I think
he would always kind of have her at the back of his mind. He'd be afraid to take certain
risks because he could get injured and, you know, that would not be good for his loved
ones. You could argue that, you know, he probably runs into the same issue with his Robins. You
know, what happens to young Dick Grayson if his caretaker, Bruce Wayne, gets killed while
being Batman? But for some reason, Bruce's romantic life seems to affect him more, I guess. Well,
with Robin, he's setting up a legacy, so he knows that if he ever kicks the bucket, he
has someone to take up his mantle. That's true. Why doesn't he just train his wife or girlfriend
to, you know, kick ass too? That's a fair point considering, you know, Andrea actually can
fight and be a masked vigilante as the phantasm. I don't know, maybe if he knew that they could
have fought crime together. Maybe they should have ended up together in the end. When Batman
was spying on Andrea and the councilman, do you think he was crying or do you think it
was just raining on his face? Rain, dude. Rain. Batman doesn't cry like that. It's always in
the rain. You can't prove anything. Back in the present, Salvatore confronts Arthur Reeves
and confirms Reeves' suspicions that Batman is killing mob bosses. Meanwhile, Batman deduces
that Salvatore, Buzz Bronski, and Chuckie Sol were business partners in the past. While investigating
Sal's office, he notices a photo of Sal, Buzz, Chuckie, and Andrea's father, Carl, all together.
In a flashback, Bruce remembers his sunset marriage proposal to Andrea. just as a swarm of bats
emerged from a nearby cave on his property. As Bruce drops Andrea off at her father's home,
they notice he has company. The following day, after Bruce investigates the cave from where
the bats came, Bruce receives a letter from Andrea saying that she can't marry him, that
she's leaving to Europe with her father, and that he should forget about her. In his grief,
Bruce rededicates his vow to his parents and becomes the Batman. Another really iconic scene
in this film is when Batman puts on the cowl for the very first time and you just see the
look of shock and horror on Alfred's face. That was, I thought, really effectively done. I
don't love the way he came to adopt the mantle of the bat because it's not entirely clear
why he chose the bat in this movie, but that reveal of him as Batman without even seeing
him on screen was fantastic. You have to imagine that Alfred seeing Batman become this monstrous
figure, a guy who, like he says in this movie, diapered his bottom since he was a baby, is
actually significantly terrifying. Yeah, he's like, that's way scarier than, you know, fighting
crime in your civilian clothes like you were before. Right. Now back in the present, Salvatore
visits the abandoned World Fair, the secret hideout of the Joker, attempting to hire him
to kill Batman, though Sal angers Joker in the process. After Councilman Reeves returns Andrea
home from a date, Andrea and Batman confront each other in her room, with Batman inquiring
about her father Carl and Andrea accusing Batman of being controlled by his parents. When the
Phantom attempts to kill Salvatore in his home, it finds that the Joker beat him to it, poisoning
Salvatore with Joker venom and rigging his body with a camera to find out who's really killing
the mob bosses. The Phantasm manages to escape before the Joker blows up Sel's home, only
to then be chased down by Batman. The Phantasm disappears, however, and Batman is forced to
flee from the police, who believe he's responsible for the Joker's explosion and Sel's death.
Badly injured in the police pursuit, Batman is rescued by Andrea, who takes him back to
Wayne Manor. I wonder if Joker rigged the camera on the body because he knew that the killer
wasn't Batman. because he knew that Batman doesn't kill. I think it's that exactly. Yeah, he was
trying to find out who was really going after the mob bosses and therefore later on, possibly
even him. Now you brought up a point earlier about a plot hole as to why Andrea was dating
the councilman. And I am kind of angry now because I didn't think about that. And I do have to
wonder, like, if she's coming into Gotham, why not contact Bruce, her former fiance right
away? I wonder if she was waiting for her whole crusade to be over with, and then maybe she,
like Batman, considered the possibility that they could continue their lives together? Or
what was going on there? Why did she have to make her presence known as Andrea to begin
with? She should have just snuck in and been the phantasm all the time. She didn't need
her alter ego there out in public. That's very true. Plot hole, dammit. Now Andrea reveals
that on the day of Bruce's marriage proposal, the visitors at her father's house were Sal,
Buzz, and Chucky, demanding money from her father Carl, who had it tied up in investments. After
lying to the mobsters, saying they'll have their money the next day, Carl explains to Andrea
that they had to flee or face death from the mob. Though Carl made a fortune in Europe and
later paid back the mob their money, it wasn't enough for them, and Bruce deduces that the
phantasm must be Carl. Bruce and Andrea rekindle their love for one another, and the following
morning, as Bruce contemplates retiring the cowl after settling this whole matter, he recognizes
in the photograph of Carl, Cell, Buzz, and Chucky that another familiar face, one of Cell's mobsters,
is in fact the Joker. Now that was an interesting twist, because I had forgotten that the Joker
was the mobster that worked for Salvatore. The camera always kept going back to the long nose
henchmen in the flashbacks and everything like that. But even then, I didn't put two and two
together until this scene where he's looking at the photo. I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, that
is the Joker. Right. Yeah. And of course, the Joker has a alternate history as a mobster,
not only from the comics, but also, of course, Tim Burton's 1989 Batman film. So I thought
it worked really well as a quasi history of sorts for the Joker in the Batman animated
series universe. After Joker confronts Councilman Reeves, suspecting he may be the Phantasm,
Reeves ends up in the hospital, unable to stop laughing. Batman visits him and learns that
Reeves and Carl kept in touch while he was away in Europe. When Carl refused to help Reeves
find his election campaign, Reeves turned to the mob and gave them Carl's location in exchange
for money. When Batman arrives at Andrea's to tell her the news, he answers her phone only
to hear the Joker threaten to kill her. As Batman manages to prevent a bomb strapped to a plane
from the World's Fair from blowing up Andrea's home, we see Andrea at the World's Fair where
she remembers in a flashback when she witnessed the pre-Joker mobster leave her father's house
just before she found him dead. Now, the scene of Batman interrogating Councilman Reeves in
the hospital as he's, you know, dosed up on Joker venom and can't stop laughing was one
of my favorite scenes in the movie. And I think one of my favorite scenes in the movie. favorite
Batman interrogation scenes I've ever seen. A lot of props has to go to the animation department
for, I think, realistically depicting this condition that the councilman is in. It was very believable.
The voice acting was fantastic. Just really interesting. Felt bad for the guy. Yeah. I'm
still surprised that he made it out alive through the course of this movie. I guess you could
rationalize Andrea dating Kim because maybe she was trying to figure out on her own whether
or not the councilman was involved in her father's death. That's my head, Kenan now. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. She was investigating him. And that's also maybe why she actually came back as Andrea
and didn't just sneak in to Gotham as the phantasm. Plot hole filled? I'm going to say yes. We
figured it out. There you go. Now when the Phantasm confronts Joker at the abandoned World's Fair,
Joker reveals that he knows it's Andrea, who reveals it is in fact her beneath the mask
before the two fight. Using the fair's technology to his advantage, Joker nearly succeeds in
killing Andrea before Batman arrives and rescues her. Though Batman and Andrea argue over her
actions, Andrea agrees to leave and Batman pursues the Joker, who reveals that he's triggered
explosives throughout the fairgrounds, that will soon detonate. When the Joker is defeated,
Andrea reappears and grabs him and the two disappear just before the entire fair blows up. One thing
that kind of bothered me here is once Batman rescues Andrea, she starts using his name Bruce
willy nilly and they're talking like they know each other. It would be so easy for Joker to
figure out this is Bruce Wayne. What? Like kind of reckless. After Batman escapes the explosions,
Alfred consoles Bruce, saying there was no way to save Andrea, as she had already fallen too
far into the abyss of vengeance. Bruce finds Andrea's locket in the Batcave, and it's revealed
that Andrea survived the explosions and is hiding away on a boat. Batman, meanwhile, remains
committed to his vow of vengeance against the criminal element of Gotham City. And that's
the end of the movie. Makes me wonder, did Batman assume that Andrea- died in the explosion and
if so why did he assume that when he saw her teleport? I don't think he assumed that she
died especially considering the fact that he found the locket in the cave. I think that
was a clear indicator that she was still alive and that she had kind of given up on their
relationship because she didn't need the locket anymore. I think really this whole thing kind
of just embittered him in a way which in turn kind of renewed his commitment to his cause.
Like if she died, he would be sad. But I think he was more angry or at least it came across
that way to me in the final shot of the film. I wonder what she did with the Joker considering,
you know, she got away. It seems like she had a change of heart and decided to just not kill
him and then, you know, go into hiding as Lois Lane. Headcanon. No, who knows? Like they should
have addressed that fact. because it's just a weird anticlimactic element of this film
that just kind of sucks. I don't know what else to say about it. She was on this mission of
vengeance. There's no real sign that she was willing to change or would change. So why wouldn't
she have killed the Joker? Maybe he got away. Maybe the Joker was too good and he escaped.
Well, then you would think that Andrea would never stop in her pursuit to kill the Joker
and would end up in Gotham City once again. I don't know, man. Exactly. That's the problem.
One of several in this movie, which I feel almost bad not liking more. I feel like I should like
it more because critics really liked it. But again, I think critics just weren't watching
a reading a lot of stuff that you and I are watching and reading now or have in the past
to justify such a high rating for this film, like On Rotten Tomatoes. I think at the time
a lot of critics were comparing Batman Mask of the Phantasm to the live action movies that
we were getting at the time. I think when this came out it was following Batman Returns and
I would agree that this movie is better than Batman Returns. I don't know if it's better
than the 1989 Batman movie but better than Burton's follow-up and certainly better than the Schumacher
films that came out later. Maybe that's the case? Maybe they liked it because it was really
the first foray that the general... non-comic book reading public got into Batman's psyche.
That's gotta be it. Yeah, that's the best thing going for this film hands down and one that
really has yet to be done as well arguably in any subsequent film, except for maybe The Batman.
So you're probably right. Now overall, despite its strong themes of vengeance and duty, the
obvious mystery reveal and plot holes prevent the film from comparing to Batman's best stories.
like Batman Begins, like The Dark Knight, like even Batman Year One. Those were all much better
origins for the character and it's really difficult not to make those comparisons. I know critics
weren't able to do that when this film came out in theaters, but I'm reviewing it now and
that's really the only way I can review it. I'm giving it three and a half stars, a fresh
rating on Rotten Tomatoes. I would agree with that rating. It's still a good movie, but when
you compare it to some of the more recent Batman animated films that we've gotten, such as,
you know, Batman Year 1, or especially Batman The Long Halloween, that was fantastic. Yes.
Again, I just don't think that this movie, while good for its time, holds up in comparison to
the newer stuff. Absolutely, and it kind of makes you wonder, like, what if Warner Brothers
released animated films like Batman Year One or Batman the Long Halloween in theaters? Like,
how would critics respond and how would the box office respond? I think they should do
it. I mean, look at how well the Spider-Verse movies do. I think Batman the Long Halloween
has a chance of holding up just as well with general audiences considering how well that
was made. I agree. I agree. Although, I mean, you know, the Spider-Verse movies are on a
whole other level animation-wise. You would have to get up to that level of animation,
I think, for the general audiences to really make a push to go see it. Because Mask of the
Phantasm was not a box office success in theaters. It later became a success on home video. And
now that, you know, Spider-Verse has set the bar for animated films in theaters, things
like Mask of the Phantasm are kind of embarrassing by comparison. That's right. Marvel likes to
embarrass DC. That's one of my favorite things about Marvel. Did I say embarrassing? I meant...
I don't know, embarrassing. Damn it. But that does it for this review. AG9K, help close this
out. Thanks for listening to Dynamic duel. Visit the show's website at dynamicduel.com and follow
us on Instagram at dynamicduelpodcast. You can support the show on Patreon at patreon.com
slash dynamicduel and joining a tier that works for you, or by rating and reviewing Dynamic
duel on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser or on our website. Don't forget to listen to the
other shows in the Dynamite Podcast Network, including Max Destruction, Senjow World and
Console Combat. In our next episode, we will be doing a duel between the Earth elemental
characters of GeoForce and Quake. I wouldn't describe Quake as an Earth elemental character.
She more just has vibration powers. But that does it for this episode, we want to give a
big thanks to our executive producers Ken Johnson, John Swarovski, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Abalkom,
Miggy Mathengian, Brandon Esfregard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Austin Wazilowski, AJ
Dunkerley, Scott Camacho, Gil Camacho, Adam Spies, Andrew Shunk, Dean Molesky, Devin Davis,
and Joseph Kirsting for helping make this podcast possible. We'll talk to you guys next week.
Up, up and away, true believers. Your angel of death awaits, and it brought snacks.