you
Welcome to the Dynamic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we review superhero films and debate
the superiority between Marvel and DC by comparing their characters in stat-based battle simulations.
I'm Johnny DC. And I'm his twin brother, Marvelous Joe. And in this episode, we will be reviewing
the newly released film in theaters, Venom, Let There Be Carnage. And uh, you know, it
was, it was dumb. It was not great. It was definitely at least not better than the first movie. but
we'll give you our full thoughts about the film later on this episode. Before that, we're going
to break down the comic book movie news to have come out in the past week. Yeah, there's no
DC news this time. I think they're saving all of that for the upcoming DC fandom later this
month. So we're going to have to settle for Marvel scraps, including Disney settling Scarlett
Johansson's lawsuits over Black Widow and The Eternals gets an updated synopsis. As always,
we list our segment times in our episode description, so feel free to check out the show notes if
you want to skip ahead to a particular topic. If you guys have been listening to the show
for a while, you know that only our most recent four episodes are available to the listening
public. Everything else is only available through subscription. So if you guys want access to
over 200 episodes of archived content, including our Captain America Civil War review, our ScarCrow
vs. Mysterio duel, our Venom review, our Penguin vs. Kingpin duel, our Spider-Man No Way Home
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and you could do so by visiting dynamicduel.com slash subscribe, which is linked in our show
notes. We want to give a huge shout out to our newest patron, Levi Yeaton, who is also our
newest executive producer of the show. So Levi, be sure to flaunt that shit. You officially
helped Jonathan and I in our monthly executive producer meetings, determine the content for
this show, including duels and reviews. Although we haven't determined too many reviews lately
because there's so much new stuff coming down the pike. No, but welcome aboard, Levi. It's
going to be a lot of fun. But with that out of the way, quick to the no prize. A no prize
is an award Marvel used to give out up until the 90s to fans. Our version, the Dynamic Duel
No Prize, is a digital award we post on social media that Jonathan personally draws for those
who we feel gave the best answer to our question of the week. Last week's question was a doozy.
We asked you guys off the back of the Injustice trailer, should Batman have killed the Joker
in the comics? Why or why not? And we got a whole ton of great answers here. A lot of people
on both sides of the coin. It was really hard to pick just three honorable mentions and the
winner. So we want to thank everyone who answered. but let's go ahead and run down our honorable
mentions. Our first honorable mention goes to DC Joe, who said, Batman should have definitely
killed the Joker after maybe the first or second one, like when he thinks he'll be reformed,
that's understandable, but after that, it's just a pattern that he's not willing to see.
And honestly, that makes him an accomplice. Yeah, kill him. Either that or, I don't know,
extradite him to a state that has a death penalty. That's what I'm saying. You know, how often
has the Joker shown to be incapable of rehabilitation? You know, every time the Joker escapes from
Arkham Asylum, because he's always going to fucking do that shit, Batman has blood on his
hands for always taking him back to that minimum security nuthouse and letting Joker escape
and kill more people. It's on Batman. He's an accomplice to this mass murderer. To say Batman
is an accomplice is very, very unfair, I feel like. He's trying to stop the Joker. And to
say that the Joker is beyond rehabilitation, I also don't think that's fair. We don't know
if the Joker is going to kill again. I mean, he's insane, which also means you can't kill
the guy. He's not responsible in a way for his own actions. We just need to help him control
those. You say that you're unsure as to whether or not the Joker will kill again? I will literally
place every cent I own on a wager that he will in the comic books. Our next honorable mention
goes to Mike Croft, who said, and Batman definitely should not kill the Joker because anyone who
knows the injustice storyline sees what happens to Superman after he decides to cross that
line and the last thing we need is a Batman who goes on murder sprees. Yeah and injustice
was a perfect example for why heroes should not be killing because once a hero makes that
exception for their rule of not killing then why not just kill any villain? That's so stupid.
Why not just become a complete authoritarian? That shit is so black and white, it's ridiculous.
DC really needs to get over this black and white shit, which is another reason why I think Batman
should kill the Joker, to show that there actually are shades of gray in the world. Just because
you make an exception for one mass murderer doesn't mean you need to make an exception
for everyone who ever commits a crime ever. Like if you need to be that black and white,
then set a limit. Once you kill 100 people, guess what? Your ass gets killed by Batman,
okay? And we all know the Joker has killed well more than 100 people, so just do that. if you're
incapable of making decisions that aren't like- No, because then it's gonna be like, oh, well
wouldn't it be better if I just like limit that to like, if they kill 50 people? That'll make
my life a lot easier, right? That's not how it works. Why? It's a shade of gray, why not?
Okay. All I know is that Captain America will put a fool down and do so with good judgment.
Next honorable mention goes to Michael Haggerty, who says- Hi guys, Michael Haggerty here. Uh,
I'm gonna say yes, he should, but, um, not for like any other reason. than to see what Batman
is without Joker? Because we've seen what happens to Joker when there's no Batman in the case
of The Dark Knight Returns. So what happens to the Batman then if there is no Joker, if
there's no that opposite side of the coin? Does he make his focus on more of a different supervillain?
I 100% agree with this answer. I think this is a fantastic answer. Do it for nothing less
than the story. It would be so great to see what happens to Batman, the fallout, the consequences
of his actions if he chooses in fact to kill the Joker, because it's not something that's
ever been done in the comics. And if you're like really concerned about a Batman universe
without the Joker, guess what? It's comic books. They could bring the Joker back as villains,
always come back. So just do it for the story. Well, I was going to say like we've seen what
Batman is like with the Joker dead. The Joker has died in a few like elseworld tales, like
the Dark Knight Returns. You know Batman kept being Batman and in justice Batman kept being
Batman. There's always new threats for him to face. There's always new crime. So I don't
think he would ever stop being Batman just because the Joker was dead. But in terms of seeing
what would happen to Bruce Wayne if he killed Joker, we've seen that as well in the Batman
Who Laughs. It breaks him. It breaks Bruce Wayne. You know, Batman killing the Joker is what
the Joker has always wanted. Because he knows that Batman has such a staunch moral code,
that if he violated that, it would destroy him mentally. And basically turn him into the Joker.
What a freaking loser. What? You don't call Batman a loser? Are you saying that his moral
code is so fucking rigid, that he can't violate it once without falling apart at the seams?
That's ridiculous. That's a strong man. People are like, Batman has this moral code. and he's
like a role model to kids and stuff like that. And I'm like, what kid out there is not killing
people just because Batman doesn't kill people? He's not a moral figure. Oh, me. He's a freaking
fictional character. I don't know, we'll see when the time comes, you know? But if kids
start killing people, that shit's on you, dude.
That's all of our honorable mentions. We want to give a big thank you to Brandon Estregard,
Frank, Dustin Balkam, Tyson Lee, Michael Harreld, Evan Tomke, Markey High, and Corey Wooten for
giving such fantastic answers. But the winner of this week's No Prize is... Meggy Mathengian
who said, Hey guys, it's me and I don't think Batman should kill the Joker because all life
is sacred and everybody has a chance for redemption, even someone as evil as him. I get the utilitarian
point of view, but I don't think that justifies killing. there's a better way to stop evil.
I think if one focuses on developing good character instead of the consequences of their action,
then the right choices will naturally follow. I think Bruce is morally sound enough that
he's doing the right thing. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become
the villain. What an act line for this whole debate. Batman should not become the villain.
Batman should not stoop to the level of villainy by murdering people. Everyone sees the Joker
as a murderer. You should just be seeing him as a human because that's what he is. When
you dehumanize your enemy, then there's no limits to what atrocities you yourself could commit
against them. We're not dehumanizing him. He has dehumanized himself through his own actions
against his fellow man. Which one of us is not capable of committing atrocities? Me, I'm not.
We all make it do that shit. Not that shit. You could do other shit that's bad, right?
So like, who are you to cast the first stone? Oh, I could cast a stone against the Joker
given that I've never killed anybody. Yet, that we know of. What?
Mickey was talking about how there's always a better way to defeat evil. Why hasn't Batman
found that way? Why does he keep doing the dumb thing of putting Joker back in Arkham Asylum
over and over again when it proves to be ineffective? Is that not the definition of insanity? Batman
is a little bit insane, but also I think the important note here is that the Joker is quite
possibly smarter than Batman or freaking anyone else in Gotham. He finds a way to escape despite
their best efforts. And if you think Batman isn't trying to keep him in there, You are
wrong, my friend. Arkham Asylum is a piece of shit facility. It's like falling down. What?
Like freaking throw Joker in the Phantom Zone or something like that. That's basically worse
than death. Good. Alright. That's the perfect compromise then, right? Something worse than
death, but he's still alive. So there's no murdering, but he's still forever trapped in a hell of
his own making. I think that's the way to go. Did you not see what happened in Lego Batman?
Joker went into the Phantom Zone and got fucking Voldemort and Sauron and King Kong. That's
fucking Lego Batman. That's what would happen. That's stupid. That's what would happen. Congrats
once again to Miggie. You win this week's No Prize if you the listener want a shot at winning
your own No Prize. Stay tuned to later on in this episode when we will be asking another
question of the week. And now that that's done, on to the news!
Alright, as we reported a few months ago, I think back in July, I believe end of July,
we learned that Scarlett Johansson filed a lawsuit against Disney regarding her earnings for the
Black Widow movie. Basically, her contract stipulated that the film would only be released in theaters
and then Disney released it day and date on the Disney Plus streaming app alongside theaters.
And she wasn't happy about that because her salary was in part determined by the overall
theatrical box office of the film. And since Black Widow didn't earn as much. in theaters
because of the streaming release. She was trying to get what she felt was owed her. Yeah, she
was trying to get some Disney Plus money. Yeah. Now, back then, Jonathan and I kind of speculated
that this whole thing might turn into a giant paradigm shift where like Disney Plus and all
the other streaming services are going to have to reveal their data to the public and how
that might affect the productions that they put out there and how much they pay talent.
But all that speculation was largely moot due to the news this past week that Disney has
settled. with Scarlett Johansson. We're not sure about the numbers, but it's no less than
40 million, according to reports. And this sucks, honestly, I think, because I was really hoping
that we were gonna go the distance and really get those numbers. But, you know, that's a
huge can of worms that I don't think any of the streaming platforms are ready to put out
there. So Disney really had no choice but to settle. And you know, there's precedent for
it. We know that HBO Max avoided potential lawsuits like this by paying out. the talent for films
like Wonder Woman 1984 and other movies. Yeah, and the same thing with Emma Stone and Disney
for Cruella. Right. So basically it was kind of a case of greed on both sides. The thing
is that Disney has so much more money as a corporation than Scarlett Johansson. So, you know, Scarlett
was considered the underdog in this whole affair, especially considering some of the dickhead
comments that Disney made, like calling her callous for bringing this up during like a
pandemic, and revealing her salary that she got for the film. You know, yeah, that was
lame. They created a PR nightmare for themselves where they had really no choice once the hearing
started, but to try to, you know, pay this away. Yeah. They were probably literally like, how
much is going to cost to make this all disappear? Scarlett. But you know, despite all the shit
talking that was going on, mostly on Disney side, it seems like everybody's cordial with
each other now. You know, Scarlett Johansson is talking about how great it is to work for
Disney and Disney's talking about how great it is to have Scarlett Johansson as part of
their talent. Right. She's going to end up making a Tower of Terror with them still. Yeah. Which
was surprising to me. I didn't think that was going to happen. Yeah. And maybe we'll even
get future appearances from her in the MCU. If they ever decide to bring her back, you
know, maybe for a Black Widow 2 or something like that, they can find a way to do that,
especially with the reveal of the multiverse within the MCU. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. In
other Marvel news, we got an updated synopsis for Eternals, which is coming out in just a
month, which is super soon. You know, we already got the final trailer that was released a few
weeks ago, and it looks like Marvel is trying to keep the marketing train going by revealing
a little bit more information about the movie, since it seems like people still have a lot
of questions about it. Yeah, it's a huge mystery still, I think. Part of that mystery has been
revealed with this new description, which reads, The Eternals takes place across two time periods.
One storyline is set in the past when they operated as a formidable team and a close family unit.
The second storyline is in the present. when the group is fractured and split apart, can
tend to live among humans hiding in plain sight. The prevailing threat of the Deviants, which
once again threatens the existence of mankind, means the Eternals need to put their differences
aside and regroup. So basically it's gonna be a story of superhero family drama. Where they
were once close, something split them all apart to leave their separate lives and now they're
gonna have to reconcile to face this new Deviant threat with the approaching Celestials. This
synopsis was a huge surprise to me. I thought the film would probably show kind of what happened
in the past, just in flashback, just to set the story up with the majority of the story
sort of happening in modern day, but it kind of sounds like they're going to be swapping
between present and the past throughout the movie, which is really interesting. Yeah. I've
always been a big fan of nonlinear narratives. I think there's a lot of opportunity to get
creative when you don't tell a story in chronological order. In addition to this new synopsis, Marvel
also released a new TV spot called Protect, which featured a lot of new footage from the
movie. It was about 30 seconds long, but we got some really cool action beats here, including
seeing Angelina Jolie's, Thena in action. We see more of Icarus's eye beams. We also got
to look at a new deviant monster that we hadn't seen before. It looks kind of like a flying
squid kind of thing. A lot of tentacles. It's really crazy. The designs on these deviants
are just out of this world, but not actually. because they were actually created here. It
is a delicate balance between revealing enough to the public so that they're enticed to see
the film, but not revealing so much so that they feel like they have a good idea of what
the plot line is overall. Marvel has definitely given away too much in their trailers before,
like with that man and the Wasp, but they definitely didn't give too much away with like the Avengers
endgame campaign. Right. And I think the Eternals campaign is kind of following the latter's
approach. Yeah, yeah, it seems that way. But speaking of the Eternals, That brings us to
our question of the week.
Who is your favorite Marvel or DC character created or partially created by Jack Kirby
and why? Yeah, Jack King Kirby was a big time creator during the Golden Age and Silver Age
of comics. He created so many of the characters that we know and love from Marvel and DC. The
Eternals being some of those characters that he created. So we'd like to hear your thoughts
on his work by telling us your favorite character. Record your answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking
on the red microphone button in the bottom right hand corner. which will prompt you to leave
us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to leave
your name in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and draw that
person a dynamic do-or-no prize that we'll post to social media. Be sure to answer before October
9th. And we're excited to bring you guys a new sponsor for this show. Yeah, HBO Max. They
want us to tell you guys about the new Batman podcast they have out called Batman The Audio
Adventures. Bruce Wayne may appear to be a wealthy playboy. But beneath his facade, his true identity
is that of the Batman, waging an endless war against crime. Join the Caped Crusader in Batman,
The Audio Adventures, the first scripted audio original featuring Batman and his villainous
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Live alums, this rollicking adventure told across 10 episodes is written and directed by Emmy
winner Dennis McNicholas, includes devilishly delightful original music by Doug Bossie, and
performances by Rosario Dawson, John Leguizamo, Chris Parnell, Melissa Villaseñor, Seth Meyers,
Jason Sudeikis, Brooke Shields, Fred Armisen, and many, many more. Go to HBOmax.com slash
Batman Audio Adventures for more and stream Batman the Audio Adventures only on HBO Max.
Special thanks to HBO Max for sponsoring this episode. And now let's go ahead and get into
our main event where we review the latest Marvel and Sony film to have hit theaters, Venom,
Let There Be Carnage.
Alright Venom Let There Be Carnage was directed by Andy Serkis and stars Tom Hardy, Woody Harrelson,
Michelle Williams, Naomi Harris, and Stephen Graham. Now if you have not watched the movie,
this will be a spoiler review as all of our reviews are, so if you're interested in possibly
seeing this film, I would suggest not listening further because we will give away the entire
plot of the movie in our discussion of it. That being said... I don't necessarily recommend
this film. If you are a fan of the original, it's likely that you'll have more of an appreciation
of the sequel. But if you didn't care for 2018's Venom movie, I would just say give this one
a skip or wait until it's on streaming. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really care about the first
Venom movie. I thought it was kind of a step back for the genre actually. And I feel the
same way about this film. It's like a step back from a step back, you know, I would have much
preferred to have not seen this in theaters. To me, this is totally a streaming film. Unfortunately,
Sony doesn't have their own streaming platform upon which they could have released this. So
we were all kind of forced to see it in the theater. And it's doing really well, actually.
Yeah, it's actually broken this year's three day opening weekend record, beating out Black
Widow by about 10 million dollars. So regardless of what we say about this film, the franchise
is definitely going to continue because it is so popular. I think a franchise continuing
is always a good thing because whether or not the previous movie was garbage, there's at
least a chance to improve there. The first Vandom movie came out in 2018. We gave that film 3.5
stars saying it had its problems but overall we found it entertaining. And while there was
little to praise about that film other than Tom Hardy's performance and the serviceable
action, I still felt like the first film did a decent job of establishing the franchise.
And I still feel that way. I rewatched the first movie right before seeing Let There Be Carnage,
and I'm really glad I did because not only is it a fun movie, but seeing the sequel immediately
after just made it so very clear to me that the sequel really leans into what made the
first movie merely mediocre and just doubled down on that. Venom, Let There Be Carnage is
not a disaster by any means, but it lacks an interesting plot. It's borderline goofy at
times. It doesn't have a whole lot of characterization outside of the main protagonist. It failed
to do the source material justice, definitely. And really it's just too short of a film. Yeah,
I cannot believe how short this film was. Like when it ended, I was like, what? We're like
already at the close of the third act. What the hell happened? Yeah, the movie is just
over 90 minutes, like an hour and a half. But it also doesn't feel like the studio left a
lot on the cutting room floor. You know, it just feels like they didn't have enough story
to tell basically. Exactly. Yeah, totally. And surprisingly, it was Tom Hardy that wrote the
script alongside Kelly Marcel. What? I did not know that. Yeah. Wow. I would have expected
much more of an effort from him, I guess. Yeah, me too. I was going to go into this sort of
blaming the studio, saying, you know, once again, it's a studio not respecting their characters,
not knowing enough about their characters. But it's kind of hard to say that now knowing that
Tom Hardy was the writer. Yeah, I don't know if he's written previous efforts before, but
I'll definitely say he did a better job of acting in this film than writing it. Because the story
is mostly a series of character building moments for Eddie and Venom, with the plot's driving
elements revolving around Cletus gaining the symbiote and attempting to kill the hero. It's
not a complex story, like the prime conflict for the protagonist is basically this tug of
war of whether or not he should be a crime fighter, which is never interesting to see. and the
fact that Carnage is the driving force is disappointing since they really dropped the ball in terms
of developing Cletus Kasady. By the time the film ends and Cletus dies, I honestly felt
like I barely even knew the character. There was so much wasted potential in regards to
Carnage who, if you listened to our last episode, had so much more background to pull from. The
film could and should have explored the origin of these alien Klintar symbiotes and their
means of reproduction. They definitely, I think, had the space to do that in this movie. We
should have also witnessed the relationship between Cletus and Carnage and how it compared
to any of Venom. I don't think we got nearly enough of that. We also didn't get enough of
the relationship between Venom and Carnage. You know, in the comics, it's established that
there's an innate antagonism that Clint are have among their kin, but we didn't get any
explanation of that here. Yeah, you're right. Like, I have no idea how Carnage even came
about. Like, if anyone bites Eddie. Are they gonna get like a new carnage symbiote in them?
Like, they didn't get to the reproduction aspect at all. They could have totally made this a
normal runtime film just by adding those essential bits. Ultimately, I think one of the biggest
disappointments was that we should have been truly afraid of Cletus Kasady, you know, who's
not just a serial killer, but in fact a mass murderer. And yeah, this film is PG-13 and
it has to stay that way because eventually it's gonna be folded into the Spider-Man franchise.
I get that. But there are ways to portray a character of that dangerous and disturbing
nature that don't need explicit violence. Yeah. Just have it happen like in the dark or like
off frame. Just like, show some blood splatter or something like that. Right. Yeah. I mean,
look at characters like Heath Ledger's Joker, you know, the dark night was a PG-13 movie
and he was horrifying. Yeah. Look at other PG-13 films like the ring and what you can get away
with there of a horrific nature, you know, the PG-13 rating does have some leeway. and this
film just didn't capitalize on it, which they needed to do, I think, for a character like
Carnage. They just left him as kind of bland overall, really. Like, I don't get the movie's
choice to turn Cletus into this lovesick clown, as opposed to this scary figure, because he
enjoys killing. That's what makes him scary. That's what I didn't get from this film. There
are so many times during this movie when I was watching this, just expecting Carnage to just
like kill anyone he came across. Instead, we got Woody Harrelson in a weird haircut. So
bizarre. Yeah, Carnage is sometimes described as being as violent and insane as the Joker.
And I don't understand why the filmmakers wouldn't have taken Joaquin Phoenix or what Heath Ledger
did with the Joker as inspiration. Woody Harrelson is every bit the actor as Heath Ledger and
Joaquin Phoenix. And that's so disappointing that they didn't do more with him. The movie
was, frankly, cheesy at times when it came to the villains and some of the side characters,
even the Eddie and Venom dynamic. What made the first film interesting is that they really
towed the line with the humor. Like it presented Venom not just as an amusing creature, but
a dangerous one. Like when he told Eddie to rip off these guys' heads and pile the bodies
and heads in the corner of the room, it was like, what? That's hilarious and scary. You
know? The first movie balanced really well the amount of jokes we were willing to tolerate
from a threatening monster villain. But in this sequel, Venom was pretty much a teddy bear.
You know, he was totally non-threatening, almost always being played for laughs. I think they
leaned way too heavily on the humor, probably thinking that's what audiences loved the most
about the first film. Yeah, he freaking went to a rave and everyone thought he just was
like the coolest guy there. I was like, shouldn't he be like trying to eat everyone? Shouldn't
they be horrified by him? Yeah, totally. Venom should be threatening and scary. First and
foremost, with only like the occasional hint of whimsy as a means of subversion and interest,
never ever in my whole life have I ever wanted to see Venom flip pancakes while singing or
wear glow sticks at a rave. He's almost a parody of himself in this movie. Make him scary first,
jokes later, if at all. Yeah, for every like turds in the wind kind of joke. we should definitely
be seeing like a decapitation or two. Right, exactly, like the first movie. Beyond the story
and the humor, I didn't feel this sequel brought anything new to the table visually that the
original film didn't have. I thought the end fight with Carnage was not necessarily better
than the end fight with Riot. They were actually kind of similar, but I found the fight with
Carnage to be even more of a confusing CGI fest. There were just like so many tentacles flying
all over the place. The action was a little bit undiscernible. And I thought Carnage was
gonna use his powers in all kinds of cool ways because Venom was like, oh shit That's a red
one But really he didn't get too creative with his powers the movie should have explained
what a red one actually meant Exactly and why he was red why there was an apparent lack of
symbiosis between Carnage and Cletus Because it didn't look that way to me like the way
Cletus would visually Morph into carnage as opposed to being covered up by him like how
Eddie is covered up by venom, right? The transformation seemed to imply that Cletus and Carnage had
a more cellular level of bonding, like in the comics. But then the film contradicts its visual
cues with dialogue about how Cletus and Carnage were less connected, which felt wrong to me
because Cletus and Carnage in the comics are essentially one and the same. Yeah, yeah, it
seemed that way based on our last episode compared to what I learned in our Venom vs. Clayface
episode. Like Eddie, Brock, and Venom are separate entities, where Cletus Kasady is Carnage. So
they kind of dropped the ball there. But with all that negativity aside, I know I probably
sound disappointed in this movie because I kind of was. But Jonathan, tell me something good
about this film. What did you like about this movie? Let's get some positivity in here. It
is a good popcorn film in that its merits are pretty much solely based on entertainment and
just having a fun, good time. I did legit laugh a number of times at the jokes and just the
character of Venom. Yeah, I'll say this movie is funnier than the first one. Yeah, I think
I could guarantee that you will be smiling in the theater if you see it there. You know,
everyone harps on how Venom should not be comedic, and I actually agree with them. That didn't
stop me from laughing, though. If Tom Hardy wrote some of these jokes, Tom Hardy is a funny
guy. Let's go ahead and talk about that in our character breakdown. You know, Eddie Brock
and Venom were both played by Tom Hardy. I think he gave a great performance here, as he usually
does. Tom Hardy is just a brilliant actor. And I think he's this film saving grace, much like
how he was the best thing about the first film. But I'll say again that it is hard to watch
a movie where the primary conflict for the hero is whether or not he wants to be a hero. You
know, we kind of touched upon that for our Luke Cage season one review. Like, we know these
characters as being someone who will fight crime. And when it takes like two movies to get the
character to that point, it can get a little bit exhausting. Oh, totally. Yeah, absolutely.
This whole film, I was just like... Listen to Venom, dude. Be that lethal protector. Yeah,
well, I mean, that's where we thought his character was at the end of the first movie, you know,
because at the end he ended up killing the convenience store robber who's threatening Mrs. Chen. I
thought he was going to start off this movie at that point, but it seems like his character
backslid a little bit where he was still a little bit uncertain as to what his purpose was with
the symbiote. And that should have been something that like maybe even Carnage played upon. I
mean, like, you know, you're getting mad at me for killing people, but look at you. Are
you a hypocrite? Oh yeah, they totally could have done that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That
would have been a great arc for him to justify to himself why he is the better man, so to
speak, despite the fact that he's an anti-hero. It writes itself, man. I guess the better man
is not a good of phrase as the lesser of two evils, which is what venom is supposed to be,
absolutely. At the end of this movie, we see Eddie Brock come to the same realization that
he learned at the end of the first movie, which is kind of accepting his circumstances as being
bonded to this creature and, you know, ready to set out and fight bad guys. Venom also had
an arc here, although it was a little bit strange, you know, like at the rave, he was talking
about alien rights and stuff. It seemed like he wanted to be respected more than anything
else. The whole film was kind of like an odd couple tale between Eddie Brock and Venom.
Like it was almost like they were in a relationship. And this was the story of their breakup and
how they got back together and learned to like respect one each other and accept that they're
right for each other. Yeah, and that is an interesting primary conflict. Too bad that the whole thing
just got resolved with a mere apology. It was basically Venom saying, you got to apologize
and then Eddie apologizing and then them being cool with the whole central conflict of their
story here, you know. Yeah, it was all kind of played for laughs. There was no grand gesture.
There was no moment of cathartic realization or anything like that is just very unsatisfying.
And now that you mentioned it, like what was to stop Venom from going out and fighting crime
and eating people in those other bodies? Like why didn't he do it then? Like why did he even
need to go to Mrs. Chen for chocolate? Why wasn't he eating people right off the bat? That's
a good question. We do know that those other bodies that he was in weren't sustainable because
like as the first movie explained, it's kind of like an organ transplant kind of thing.
The symbiote has to be a match with the host. So He may not have been able to sustain himself
being attached to those hosts despite eating other people. That's the only reason I could
give. Hmm. Let's move on to Cletus Kasady and Carnage, both played by Woody Harrelson. A
lot of people may not know that Woody Harrelson also provided the voice for Carnage in this
film. I myself thought the voice was a little bit too deep, and I don't know if I'm just
being conditioned by the Spider-Man animated television series, but in that show, his voice
was a lot more like... high pitched and layered a little bit, you know, frightening. But as
far as Woody Harrelson's Cletus Kasady, I think he did as well as he could have. On paper,
it should have been perfect. But the problem, I think, was what was actually on paper. There's
only so much for him to work with based off of the script that he was given. He seemed
so much less unhinged here than he did in the after credit scene for the first Venom film.
There, like his performance was wild and like his eyes were like popping out of his head
and everything. And here he was just kind of normal guy, you know? It was really weird toward
the end of the film when Cletus was explaining to Eddie how he was like so alone as a child
just wanting to be loved and how right before he died he was like I just wanted to be your
friend basically. It seemed like they were trying to rationalize his horribly evil behavior and
while that's you know an interesting approach to take with a lot of villains, I don't think
that's the right approach to take with Cletus Kasady because he's freaking one of the most
evil villains out there. You don't humanize him. You make him an evil force of nature like
the Joker. His is the sort of evil that needs no rhyme or reason. It just is because he is
chaos incarnate. Because some men just want to watch the world burn. Exactly. It was kind
of cool in this movie, probably one of the more interesting scenes of the film when they delve
into Cletus's backstory via the use of animation. It was kind of an interesting way to circumvent
showing a lot of the violence of his past. Oh, yeah. Yeah, if they would have filmed that
with like a real kid, that would have gotten real dark. I'm sure Disney would have been
like, no, we don't want venom in our film. Right, right. But that animation was the most character
development that we got for Cletus. And ultimately, I don't think it was enough. Let's move on
to Cletus's girlfriend, Frances Bereson, AKA Shriek, who is played by Naomi Harris. What
the fuck was this character? She was so bad. Like Naomi Harris is a decent enough actress.
I like her in a lot of the stuff I've seen, but sometimes she makes these really weird
character decisions that play off so bad. She did not need to be in the movie. Like you mentioned
earlier, The whole thing with Cletus needing like a love story angle was completely unnecessary.
It's like they only had her here because they needed somebody who would be able to destroy
both of the symbiotes, who had a power set of that nature. Yeah, I mean I was thinking about
that the whole time I was watching the movie. Like, this is like the worst character to have
Carnage fall in love with, even though I know it's a precedent in the comics, because she
is his weakness. It's like Superman falling in love with a Kryptonite woman. and then getting
pissed at her for being made out of kryptonite. It's weird. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of the
performance, like Naomi Harris was very inconsistent. At times she had this like weird girly cartoony
voice. It was strange. I don't understand what her motivations were, like why she was so hell
bent on causing destruction. I don't get why she like all of a sudden had a change of heart
at the very end. And I was like, no, Carnage, she's doing too much, blah, blah. That was
stupid. Like she just got done killing the guy that she wanted to kill, allegedly killing,
you know, Detective Patrick Mulligan. And then only afterward she was like, this is too much.
And it's like, what are you talking about? Like you knew this was all part of the plan. Like,
you know, Shriek, Carnage and Cletus, they were all set out to get their revenge. If I wrote
this film, Shriek would not be in it. Cletus would have escaped from his execution and just
gone on a killing spree. And that was the film. Like Venom had to stop this killing spree.
Yeah, and he would have had to have been a little bit more creative in how he did that, considering
that they didn't have, you know, a built-in failsafe with the shriek character. Who didn't
see that coming a mile away? Everybody fucking saw that. I also just want to point out that
the worst line of this movie was when she was like, peeps tried. Botched it. Ugh. Let's move
on to Anne Wayne, who was played by Michelle Williams. Kind of like the first movie, she
was really just a supplemental character. She didn't have too much bearing, except for the
cool moments where she got to don the symbiote again. I really liked that they brought She-Venom
back, if only for a little bit, because I really liked her appearance in the first movie. And
I like that Anne likes being Venom. Anne she still likes Eddie Brock, it seems, even though
she can't handle his continual lying. I'm really glad that the movie chose not. to pair those
two up together in the endo and keep Dan around because I just don't think it would fit the
characters for them to end up back together. And I like Dr. Dan. It was nice that they gave
him a little heroic moment here in the final battle where he was pouring fire on the symbiotes.
Yeah, I kind of get the feeling that this is probably the last time we'll end up seeing
those two characters in the franchise, maybe, but I think you've kind of done all you can
with them anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, I agree. The last character that I want to talk about is
Steven Graham, who played Detective Patrick Mulligan. He was generic cop, big deal, but
every time he was on screen, I kept waiting for hints toward Toxin. Because in the comics,
he becomes Toxin. Wait, what? Yeah, Toxin is Carnage's offspring. He's more powerful than
Carnage and Venom combined. He has like these poison claws. He's an okay character, but he
ends up bonding to Detective Patrick Mulligan. They didn't do anything with him until the
very end of the movie, but it was so confusing how they went about it. Because like Shriek
killed him. Essentially or almost killed him it like she tied this chain around his neck
I thought she was gonna hang him, but she ended up just like throwing him backward It was really
bizarre and it turned out he didn't die and he has glowing eyes why he has glowing guys
Absolutely no idea because toxin himself doesn't have glowing guys You know he looks like carnage
on his top half and venom on his bottom half I gotta say if he's the villain in another
venom movie I'm not looking forward to that at all like venom going up against another
symbiote and like one who's played by an actor as mediocre as this guy. I totally agree. It's
like, oh, that's gonna sell tickets. Yeah. Considering we've got Riot in the first film and Carnage
in the second film, let's see something new for the next film. Like maybe they go down
the route of Null and we finally get the history on these alien symbiotes and things like that.
That might be cool. And with that story, you could even bring Carnage back and maybe do
him justice this time. But definitely not Toxin. I don't think he's a strong enough character
for a third film. But let's go ahead and break down the story highlights. So the film starts
off in 1996. We see a young Cletus Kasady fall in love with Frances Bereson at the St. Estes
home for unwanted children. She is a mutant with a sonic scream who's taken to a special
holding facility at the Ravencroft Institute. The whole mention of mutation was really surprising
to me. This was like the first time we've heard anything about mutation since the X-Men films.
Yeah, and I have kind of mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it is exciting to see that
they may be working toward mutants within the multiverse or whatever. On the other hand,
I really hate that she will be the introduction to mutants, because Shriek in this movie just
sucked. They're her peeps! They botched it! I would have preferred if the introduction
to mutants was just more impressive, I guess. So en route to the Institute, Shriek nearly
kills Patrick Mulligan, who was an officer helping facilitate the transfer. He shoots Shriek in
the eye and he believes he killed her, but she's successfully transferred in secret. Which kind
of confused me later on in the movie. I'm wondering why they kept her incarceration at Ravencroft
a secret, even to local authorities. Was it just like a government, like secret experiment
center? And maybe that's why it was off the books. Like they were trying to keep mutation
a secret. That's the only thing I could come up with. It would have been nice if they kind
of like explained that though. Back to the story in the present. Detective Mulligan asks Eddie
to speak with the serial killer Cletus Kasady to potentially get more info on his past murders.
Cletus gives Eddie some kind of vague poem for some reason, and Venom memorizes Cletus's cell
drawings and deduces the location of several missing bodies from the killer's past. Why
do you think Cletus had such a draw to Eddie Brock? Like, was it just because he was a former
TV personality? I still don't understand why Cletus saw Eddie Brock as like a family member.
I don't know. He just kind of saw him as a kindred spirit, I guess. Maybe he had some kind of
inclination that there was something darker lurking within Eddie. Not quite sure. I'm also
not sure what the purpose of Cletus's poem was, considering that, like, I don't think he knew
where Sheik was being held or that she would have access to, like, newspapers or something
like that. So- Or that she was even still alive. Right. So basically it was Cletus just wanting
to play games with Eddie. And then Venom kind of seeing through that and cutting to the chase
with where the bodies were hidden. That was a cool scene when Venom was having Eddie draw
out everything that was on the cell walls from Cletus' cell. I thought that was like a super
cool power. I would love to have like a superpower like that. I thought it was cool when he put
the Sharpies away and then he started drawing on the page with his own strands, kind of.
If anything, Eddie Brock can give up his career as a journalist and just sell drawings all
day since Venom is so artistic and talented. Apparently revealing the location of these
bodies and getting Cletus sentenced to the death penalty gave Eddie's career a huge boost But
we never really saw how that manifested right? It's not like you got a show back or anything
like that, you know, right? Yeah, he wasn't speaking to his old colleagues back in New
York or something like that, which would have been cool So Cletus receives the death penalty
and berates Eddie for his actions Venom lashes out and attacks Cletus in a cell who bites
Eddie's hand ingesting part of the symbiote Eddie meets up with Anne who tells him she's
getting engaged to Dr. Dan Lewis. I'm really wondering if Venom did reproduce like he did
in the comics at the moment that Cletus bit Eddie's hand, or if the movie was treating
it more like a piece of venom that just kind of gained its own autonomy. I guess there's
no real difference between that and the way that symbiotes reproduce since it's asexual,
but I wonder if there was any confusion among the general public as to why this piece of
venom would turn evil. I mean, I'm still wondering that, like, why would Carnage, his offspring,
want to kill Venom? They never explained that. I guess for the film, you'd have to claim that
Cletus's own hatred of Eddie kind of manipulated Carnage into being evil or something. The Carnage
symbiote stops the lethal injection from entering Cletus's body and transforms him into Carnage.
He escapes, killing all the guards and freeing the prisoners. I thought this was actually
the best scene in the movie. I liked how Carnage manifested. during the execution process. I
think that was done better here than in the comics even. And that escape scene when he's
just like terrorizing the entire cell block, that was impressive. I was like, holy shit,
it's freaking Carnage. I thought the way he killed that one security guard with the tongue
choking thing was the most creative and disturbing kill by Carnage. Like all of those prisoners
that he walked past in that prison should have all been like massacred. Yeah, I'm not sure
why he freed the prisoners. And really the film doesn't address the mass prison breakout at
all, you know? But I'm not sure why Carnage didn't kill them, considering that's probably
what he would have done. They should have at least addressed what happened with the prisoners.
Eddie and Venom end up having a falling out, since Eddie doesn't want to eat bad guys, and
Venom leaves Eddie's body. Eddie learns about Cletus' escape and investigates Cletus' past
at St. Estes. He calls Mulligan to tip him off to the Shriek connection. Meanwhile, Venom
goes to a rave and appreciates being around people he calls weirdos. I felt like the whole
rave scene could have just been cut from the movie. You know, he could have been going around,
traveling around, and then ended up at Mrs. Chen's place. And the film would have been
probably the exact same. If not better, because we wouldn't have had to have seen Venom look
like a joke with all the glow sticks. Yeah, save that time for like some more carnage character
development or something. Yeah. Cletus and Carnage rescue Shriek from Ravencroft, which I thought
was a pretty cool scene too, and the pair destroy a group of police who come to stop them. Yeah,
I did think it was cool that like, Carnage just appeared in the cell when that like, doctor
lady was being a jerk to Shriek. Yeah, and the fight they had against the cops was pretty
impressive. This was the first time that we see Shriek use her powers in Carnage's presence,
and he gets like really pissed off at her. And at that point, everyone's wondering like, why
Carnage would even bother assisting Cletus in rescuing her. Together, Shriek, Cletus, and
Carnage burn down the old St. Estes home. Eddie is taken into the police station for questioning
and he calls Anne as his lawyer. He tells her the situation and she finds venom with Mrs.
Chen, which I thought was pretty funny, like when Mrs. Chen had the venom face. She dons
the symbiote herself and uses it to break Eddie out of jail and the pair are reunited and make
amends. Detective Mulligan stumbles across Cletus who kidnaps him. for Shriek who was seeking
revenge against the detective for shooting out her eye all those years ago. In turn, Shriek
kidnaps Anne and Dan calls Eddie to tell him that she's been taken to a cathedral where
Cletus and Shriek plan to get married. The whole marriage thing was a little weird. Eddie arrives
at the cathedral and Shriek tries to kill Venom using her powers. Carnage threatens to kill
her if she uses them again. And Venom fights Carnage while Shriek apparently kills Mulligan.
I liked how during the Carnage-Venom fight they did establish that Carnage was physically stronger
than Venom considering he was able to tear down that wall on top of Venom and Venom was unable
to push the wall off of himself. Shriek ends up claiming that Carnage is going too far and
Carnage tries to kill her and she falls from the cathedral roof, letting loose a scream
that separates the symbiotes from their hosts and destroys the cathedral spire.
manages to save Eddie by cushioning his impact. Cletus was not so fortunate, and Venom devours
the carnage symbiote. Cletus claims he only wanted to be Eddie's friend before getting
his own head bitten off. Yeah, Venom was like, fuck this guy. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how
I felt about that. Like, it was funny, but like, whatever emotional impact the film was going
for, with Cletus telling Eddie he just wanted to be his friend, they totally negated all
of that with the fuck this guy joke. So it seemed just unnecessary. They shouldn't have tried
to humanize Cletus to begin with. I also really didn't care for the fact that Venom killed
Cletus. Like I think he should have gotten locked up again, personally. You could always bring
Cletus back by saying that remnants of the Carnage symbiote are still in his bloodstream and that
it gives him a regenerative healing factor, just like in the comics. Okay, sure. Eddie
says goodbye to Anne and Dan accepting their relationship, and he and Venom travel to a
tropical location as fugitives from the law. to start over as the lethal protector. How
were they fugitives from the law though? Because of the police station escape that they did
earlier. So it's now a matter of public record, basically, that monsters exist and that Eddie
is one of them. But Eddie wasn't a monster when they escaped. That was like Ann's fault. I
mean, don't tell that to me, man. Tell that to the writers of the film. It's a huge plot
hole. Like I did not get it. I did not understand what was going on in the theater. Yeah, I mean,
you could totally say that Eddie had deniability, like he was just kidnapped by this monster
or something. And, you know, they didn't know it was Anne. Like she, Venom, doesn't look
like Anne, so she has deniability too. There is the loose thread of Detective Mulligan possibly
being alive that they would have to contend with, because if he is alive, then he knows
everything and Venom really would be a fugitive. But it's really not clear what's going on with
Detective Mulligan, so. The film ends with Venom and Eddie in the tropics in the mid-credits
scene. They're watching a telenovela as Venom hints at his alien races knowledge of the universe.
Suddenly, they're transported to an apparent alternate dimension or at least a different
location where they see Spider-Man's true identity as Peter Parker revealed. Venom licks the screen.
I'm not sure if this moment where he changes dimensions is a result of the Loki television
show or if it's going to be a result of the Spider-Man No Way Home movie during Doctor
Strange's spell. Perhaps the two events coincide simultaneously, but we don't know that yet.
Yeah, that would have made like the ending events of Far From Home and Venom 2 and Loki kind
of all happen at the same time maybe. Right, yeah, like right around the same time. Did
it seem like Venom was infatuated with Spider-Man? Well, yeah, clearly. I don't know why. Yeah,
why? I wonder if it'll lead to Venom and Eddie traveling to meet Spider-Man just so the symbiote
could be passed. Yeah, I'm guessing that Venom will probably make an appearance in the end
credits of No Way Home to transfer the symbiote. Oh, you think he's going to show up in the
end credits and not the actual movie as one of the villains of No Way Home? Uh, I don't
think so. I don't know why. A lot of people are speculating that Venom is going to be one
of the main villains of that film, which I think would be pretty cool to get Tom Hardy in that
movie, too. But we'll see. If they're planning on getting the most out of the Venom-Spider-Man
relationship, I think they should definitely save Venom as an after credits teaser for No
Way Home. That way they can both like, I guess, team up in a movie down the line. Yeah, I agree.
I don't think you need Venom just yet. You know, save their relationship for another Spider-Man
film down the line. Or Venom 3. Yeah, exactly. But that's the whole movie. Overall, I think
that the film was written and directed by actors who should probably stick to acting. Oh, damn.
Andy Serkis. I love him so much as an actor from like Gollum and Lord of the Rings. to
Caesar in the Planet of the Apes films, to Ulysses Klaw in Black Panther. He's so brilliant and
brings so much to his performances, whereas I felt he brought relatively little to his
direction of this film. I don't think that Tom Hardy wrote a great script. That is to say
the film is not a complete disaster. I did enjoy it only at the base level for Tom Hardy and
Brandon's quirky relationship, and some of the action is entertaining, particularly that carnage
prison escape. But it's full of questionable things from plot points to acting choices,
and I wish it was a better film. You know, I've been looking forward to seeing Venom and Carnage
fight in a live action film against each other ever since I was a kid. And this was not quite
the movie that I was hoping for ultimately. I am interested in seeing where Venom goes
regarding Spider-Man, and I just really hope that the Venom monster is not such a clown
in his next appearance. I kinda got the feeling that the filmmakers really, really wanted to
sell the end credits stinger, like if people so worked up about how cool that was that they
may forget how mediocre the movie itself was as a whole. I give this film two and a half
stars out of five. That's one whole less star than we gave the first Venom movie. You saw
this movie before me and you kind of let me know that you weren't quite happy with it before
even I saw it. I thought that you were being kind of harsh on it. But after seeing the film,
there were so many plot holes. and I felt they did such a disservice to the character of Carnage
that I have to agree with you. Yeah, I think it's like right run in the middle of the road.
Not a good film, but not the worst either. 2.5 stars sounds right to me. It was just too disappointing,
I think, to get a better rating than that. My biggest concern is that once again, these filmmakers
are not taking the character seriously. It's almost like Sony is going back down the path
as they did with the Amazing Spider-Man franchise, where they just don't know what the hell they're
doing. Hopefully Marvel can save them and Sony continues their collaborative relationship
with Marvel Studios. Yeah, yeah, the moment Sony goes rogue and decides to break off ties
with MCU or Kevin Feige or whatever is a dark day. I do not have high hopes for Sony manning
the reins of the Spider-Man franchise, especially with a film like this. But that does it for
our review. Let us know what you guys thought about Venom Let There Be Carnage by writing
to us at dyna or by visiting us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. You can find links to
all of our social media accounts by checking out our show notes or visiting our website,
dynamicduel.com. And on our site, you can also find a link to our Patreon page where we offer
bonus content, including bonus episodes and duels, monthly live movie watch-alongs, collectible
pincets, and access to our Discord server. Check it out right after this episode. Our lowest
tier is only $2 a month. which is also the cost to subscribe to the show on Spotify. Our next
episode is going to be a duel. It's kind of Halloween themed, but it also ties into Spider-Man
villains. We're going to pit Man-Bat versus Morbius, the living vampire. Yeah, we were
trying to save this one for, you know, when the Morbius movie was released, but everything's
been pushed back so far. We need to get this duel done now in lead up to our upcoming team
duel where we're going to pit the Justice League Dark against the Midnight Suns. So look forward
to that coming soon down the line. But that does it for this episode. We wanna give a big
thanks to our executive producers, John Spies, Ken Johnson, Jace Crump, John Storosky, Zachary
Hepburn, John Beccinina, Mitchell Phipps, Steven Lovato, Dustin Balcom, Salvador Hernandez Contreras
Jr., and Levi Yeaton for making this podcast possible. And we'll talk to you guys next week.
Up, up, and away, true believers.