H.H.Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi speaking in Marathi at a Sahaja Yoga public meeting at Rahuri Agricultural University, with Sahaja yogis speaking in English. Rahuri, Maharashtra, India. (1982-0201)

[NOTE] This is a discussion on TM beginning with Shri Mataji speaking in Marathi, followed by Marcus and Rustom in English on the techniques of TM, and its effects.

Shri Mataji: हा, आता सांगायचं म्हणजे TM मध्ये सगळी भूतविद्या स्मशाणविद्या असते. आणि ते काय करतात, कि तुमच्यात हि भूत घालतात, आणि ते भूतं तुम्हाला वेडयासारखी करून टाकतात. अहो, लोकांना इतकं म्हणजे, भीती बसते कि त्यांना जर तुम्ही लसूण दाखवलं तर थरथर थरथर कापतात. लसणाला भितात, म्हणजे भाजीला भितात, म्हणजे काय हे? माणसाला इतकं युजलेस करून टाकलेलंय. इतकंच नव्हे लसणा तरचच तर सोडा, पण त्यांची हि स्थिती आहे कि त्या लोकांना जर तुम्ही एखादा धूप जाळला, किंवा देवाचं नाव घेतलं तर थरथर थरथर होतात.

बरं, would you like to say something about TM? Someone? Varey? Someone, what happens with TM? Would you like to say something Marcus? Please tell them, because now they are coming to India and trying to show TM technique, better tell them. आणि उडण्याचे यांचे फोटो घेतले कि, आम्ही उडतोय म्हणून म्हणजे काय करायचं कि अस स्परिंग वर बसवायचं, सांगतात ना, आणि मग म्हणायचं कि आम्ही उडतोय. म्हणजे जसं आपण आता घोडयावर वगैरे बसायचा प्रयत्न केला आणि शिकलो जसं सर्कशीत असतं तसं थोडंसं एक मिनिट वर येतो मनुष्य. त्यांचे फोटो ...... यांच्या सगळया मांड्या सगळया घासलेल्या, खाली सगळी हाडं मोडलेली, अशा स्थितीत हे माझ्याकडे आले, विचारा त्यांना.

I am telling them, how much you were damaged? Come along, now you go and tell them. थोडी शक्ती जास्त वाटते, पण जेंव्हा ते भूत डोक्यावर बसते, तेंव्हा माञ माणसाची दयनीय स्थिती होऊन जाते.

Marcus: First thing we do with TM is to pay the money. First, they wanted money from you. When you pay then you get the technique, so-called technique. The first thing you get is a Mantra. The first mantra I got for 300 pounds was ‘Inga' and they supposedly give you mantra according to your age, just start with, which is nonsense. But because we don't know anything in the west and we think this man looks like a ‘sadhu', we go headlong into it.

Secondly, when you start getting involved, and you do this technique every day, you do in the morning for 20 minutes and you do in the evening for 20 minutes. And slowly as you do this, repeating this mantra in your mind, you start to go in regions that you just don't know about, because in the west we don't know anything about meditation at all.

What happens, you start getting into subconscious regions and superconscious. You start seeing things. Then, when you get more involved and you want to go deeper into some sort of meditation, you do, what they call it ‘Siddhi technique' (TM Siddhis) of which, one of them is the flying technique. And actually, what you pay is 2000 pounds for a little phrase, you say, I forgot it...(laugh). Actually, you will laugh when I will tell you the technique they taught. One of them, one of the siddhis so called, for mastering eating is ‘Bronchio To'. You repeat that over in your mind ‘Bronchio To'. And the flying technique is the relation between the body and space, ‘Light is Cotton Wall', can you imagine, you say that in your mind and you jump like a frog on a match. And because you are told it will make you fly and somebody who is completely hypnotized, then you do it. And what happens is, you get into some sort of frenzy like you see in Rajnish people, they get into a frenzy and these people who do this dancing thing, they get into a frenzy. And what happens that you go mad eventually, and you smash yourself up and down on a match, like this. And eventually, you smash your Mooladhara to pieces completely. And what happens as you do this technique more and more, you will become completely ruined, although you don't know about it.

We used to live in a place in Scotland to call a TM academy. They have these academies all over the world, where you go and do these techniques, and you learn all about how to fly? And the first thing that you taught, how to lead a pure life, supposedly. How to restrain your mind? Restrain your eyes? And how to become a Brahmachari? So-called. But this Mr Guru, himself this Maharishi. He is the most impure person probably on this earth, and several people, who have been to us have been molested by him physically. And as you are taught, as you are told by the people who are closed to him how to imitate a pure person because he himself looks, he is dressed in white robes, he has got big bushee bed, his eyes are on ground all the time thinking of money, and he is just a show. I can tell you, it is just a show. Because all the TM people have blue suits, they have a white shirt and a big red tie and short hair and they look very nice to believe me they look very nice. But underneath, when you become a Sahaja yogi, you can feel chakras, and it is horrible, absolutely horrible.

About three years ago, we were becoming mad in Scotland doing this TM stuff and Regrett Wendvas, who owns some property in England. He saw mothers photograph in a magazine, because in the west we have a magazine called ‘Yoga Today', and somebody has written an article about Mother, and they had a photograph of her. And he put his hand after the photograph of Mother, and he got his cool breeze on his hands. So he went to see Mother.

Because he has done TM for about 7 years, he was shaking like a leaf and when he phoned the ashram in London, he started to get very hot, especially in his throat area and started to shake with his hands like this... And when we came to mother, there was about 25 of us, because we were very close. And when we came before Mother, some people who had been doing this flying technique would just start jumping for no reason like frogs. And some people started screaming and some people started growling. Actually, there was a bit like a zoo, to begin with. But thank Mother, we became human now. And despite everything we being through we becoming no more. Because so many people become so mad doing TM. Because when you do this flying technique, something like a spirit enters you and you start doing this jumping.

And when we first came to Mother, it was so bad that some people who are Mother's disciple used to take Mothers name and the person would jump out the window screaming. They couldn't stand the name just of Mother.

But because TM is so bad, and because it ruins you so much. All the people who came out of TM at that time, there are only very few left because what happens to you is you get ruined so badly by something which you just don't know what is happening inside.

And there are only very small hands left in the west, there are millions and millions of people doing TM. Because in TM everything you learn, you are taught, not to tell anybody. It's a very secretive business, everything you are taught, you are taught in a room just with one person and its so secretive that you practise it on your own in your own room. There is nothing collective about it, as a result, you become so meticulous, you become so washed and proof that your whole heart freezes out completely. As a result, Mr Mahesh Yogi, he has a personal bank account in Josey with so many millions of pounds in it, that I wouldn't like to say how much it is?

When you get involved in this TM racket, you get so hoodwinked by it and you become, you get a position in high rocky, you are given, you are to become a minister or you become some sort of flying instructor, or you become a TM teacher, or you become a governor or you become an executive governor, or you become a chief minister and they have a little place in Switzerland, where they have big seats and you are given the position in the world government.

They invite big scientists from all over the world to come and speak there. Because with this TM, they do lots of scientific research. They prove everything scientifically because they sit somebody down, they test his blood pressure, when he is saying ‘Inga – Tinga'. And they test somebodies brain when they doing this flying, and because the person who is doing the testing, does TM, he thinks he is right. But as doctor Bujorjee will tell you the brain waves of a person doing TM, the brain waves of a person who does this flying is the same as a person who is epileptic in the beginning stage. And I am sure doctor Bujorjee will tell you about this.

Mother: Thank you very much.

बुरजोर्जि इथे आपल्याला सांगणार आहेत TM चे अनुभव. हे मोठे सायकियाट्रिस्ट आहेत, आणि MBBS आहेत, चांगल्या रितीच शिक्षण झालेलं सायकियाट्रिस्ट. मोठ्या घराण्यातले आहेत, आणि ते आठवड्यातून काही दिवस लंडनला आणि काही दिवस जर्मनी मध्ये जाऊन प्रॅक्टिस करतात, आठवड्यातले दोन भाग करून. सहजयोगासाठी ते इथे आलेले आहेत. यावर्षी माञ त्यांचा काही कार्यक्रम भारतामध्ये आहे. आज आपल्याला राहुरी ला कार्यक्रम आहे म्हणून ते आज इथे आलेले आहेत. आणि कर्म धर्म संयोगाने मी असं ऐकलं कि TM ची काही लोकं इथं आलेली होती, आणि ते प्रश्नही आपल्यापुढे आले आणि वस्तुस्थिती सांगणारी मंडळी लगेच पाठोपाठ आली, हे आपलं भाग्य समजायचं. मी आता डॉ. बुरजोर्जि ना ... जे स्वतः ब्रेन व्हेव्ज वरती ट्रीटमेंट देतात आणि स्वतः रिसर्च हि केलेले आहे.

Dr Rustom Bujorjee: You see, of Yoga, is to take you to God, and any form of meditation, which doesn't do that is obviously not true. Now we have heard from Mr Marcus that TM takes you only to bankruptcy, mental illness and physical illness. When I was a young doctor in London. I was working in a very famous psychiatric hospital, the most famous in England. And there, I used to find a lot of patients used to come about 6 or 8 weeks after having started TM. In those days, I never used to understand, what it was the TM did? That it used to drive people mad. We used to have all sorts of theories and all sorts of ideas, and we discussed this many times amongst yourself, but we didn't know the answer.

By next, it going to TM happen when I was in Mataji's ashram and the people from Scotland whom Mr Marcus describes came down. There were 20 of them perhaps 25 and we tried to give them realization. The first thing that happened is when we began to take mantras, that they began to shake like people who are having epileptic fits. I was very surprised. I have never seen anything like this before. So to try to protect him, we try to put sindur on their forehead. When we tried to put sindur on their forehead, they began to Shiva and to run away from us and they have no control over this. One person sitting on the ground, and he jumped so high of the ground, and ran like an animal on all four legs between the legs of somebody, out of the door into the garden. All these things really happened. They were used to growl and bark like animals. It was so bad that all the people around us wondered what was the matter?

Then, I attended a scientific seminar, a so-called scientific seminar on TM. And what we found them was the brain waves that TM eventually produces in people are the same as the brain waves that are produced in epilepsy.

Most of the people who came from TM, in addition to having to be psychologically unstable. They are very irritating, they can't bear any disturbance, their minds are not steady, they do not seem to be in control of themselves, and their intelligence is completely destroyed, their capacity to think is completely destroyed, they can't do anything anymore. They are broken, empty.

I was a doctor. You see, so I was very interested in this. So it seems to be that, there is no technique for reaching God. Rather here is a technique which will enable you to destroy yourself. Many of the people who have done TM, either their families, members of families have had heart attacks, have bronchitis, pneumonia. The mother of this friend of Mr Marcus, who first brought him died in a hospital of a heart attack, and she was unconscious for I think something like 8 or 10 days.

So you see, anything that is auspicious, anything that is True, anything that is a good Yoga, should bring you blessings. It should not destroy you, it should not destroy your mind, it should not destroy your body, it should not destroy your family and it should not destroy your wealth. And I have never done TM, but I have never seen anyone who has benefitted from TM. All it does, it places your ego.

God does not make you governors of this Universe. He does not make big big thrones to sit on, that is not his job. His job is to make you one with your spirit. And if anyone comes to you, and says if you give me money, and I will make you reach me, reach God. Then if you go to him, then you are a fool. Because you must know that God does not act through money, and it does not flatten your ego. He is not a diplomat. He is the master of this whole Universe.

Sahaja yoga is the opposite of all this. It is, in fact, the only way. You see, through Sahaja yoga, the first thing that happens by the grace of the God, which is manifested in Mataji Nirmala Devi that your Kundalini awakens. As your Kundalini awakens your attention, your Chitta which upon now going there, there, everywhere is drawn inside into your subtle body, into the chakras, which sit in the subtle body and into the gods and the deities who sit in this chakras and rule the subtle body.

In the technique of this Yoga, you say the mantras and you feel the chakras move. You take the names of Gods and you see where they are sit. You see what qualities they rule over. You see what things you do which makes the chakra close, and you should not do them. And you see, what things you should do which makes chakras open. Your attention goes inside from going outside. It goes inside from being grows, it becomes subtle and your chakras teach you the best way to live. And so your dharma is established in reality through your own feelings, not simply by listening. You learn from your own experience, and as you become deeper and deeper established in Sahaja yoga, you begin to feel the silence, that is your own spirit. And you begin to see the manifestation of your own spirit within you. So that it becomes, your attention becomes centred on your spirit, and you realize that your spirit is one with the Absolute.

Another side of Sahajayoga is that the Devi is ‘sarva vidya pradayini'. She is the giver of all True Knowledge. Now, I was educated at Cambridge, where I was taught by at least 20 noble prize winners. Whatever there was in science to know, I learnt and I knew. I did the research myself into brain cells. But what we know in science is very limited compared to what you can learn from the vidya of Sahaja yoga.

You see, why all the scientists are talked as medical scientists? All the scientists discovered is that such a gland is here. If you do such and such thing to that gland, it will react in such a way. All that physicist discovered is what does atom in the Universe. If you do such and such thing to this atom, they will behave in this way, that's all. It is not very deep, it is not very profound. And it takes you many centuries to discover all these things.

In Sahaja yoga, using your own instrument, you can feel the great shaktis of this Universe. How do they move to? How do they act? And how they have built this Universe? What is the architecture of this Universe? And knowing that, knowing the subtle skeleton, the subtle structure of this Universe, you know not only what things do? But why they do them?

For example, since coming to Sahaja yoga, I have discovered why certain endocrine glands are placed in certain situations. I will give you one example, you see, the Swadishthana chakra is a chakra that is concerned with the metabolism of fat of transforming fat for used in the brain or transforming fat into sugar for used by the Nabhi chakra. Now, this we know, and now we know why all the glands which deal with fat metabolism are placed there. Now the liver is the only organ in the body that can use fat, that is in the centre Swadishthana. The pancreas which controls the shift of sugar to fat and fat to sugar is also in the Swadishthana chakra. So you see, it makes perfect sense.

We know the Vishuddhi chakra is the chakra which handles growth, height. And here the two great glands thyroid and parathyroid which control this, are placed there. We know the Agnya. Agnya means command. It is a chakra of command and we know the pituitary, which commands all the endocrine glands are situated in Agnya chakra. And we know that the limbic area, which is the area of bliss. You are stimulated to get bliss and that controls the Agnya chakra that is the area of Sahasrara. So the Sahasrara integrated the whole sympathetic, para-sympathetic system which manifests in Agnya hypothalamus pituitary pineal glands and these control all the other endocrine glands all the over sympathetic and parasympathetic systems.

You see, it is very simple, if you go to the realm of chemistry, you will find the same thing. We know that the carbon atom with its four valencies is the tatwa of Lord Ganesha. We know that the nitrogen is the tatwa of Lord Vishnu, of the Satwa Guna. You know with carbon, hydrogen and oxygen you can produce any organic compound. But without nitrogen, you can not have a life. So it seems, without the power of Lord Vishnu there is no life, there is only material Universe. Now how many people of you know that that is why for life we need nitrogen. We put nitrogen fertilizers on our field. Did you know? Why it is so necessary?

You see how the other side of it is that we know that Lord Vishnu sits in the Nabhi chakra that he rules the Sushumna Nadi and he is the lord of Satwa Guna. How do we know this? I didn't read this in any book. But when people come to Mataji's feet you will see, where the Nabhi chakra is, that there is blocked, Kundalini below is moving. You can see it with your own eyes moving up and down. How do we know that it is Vishnu's tatwa? You say the mantra of Lord Vishnu, very simple "Om twamev sakshat Shri Laxmi Narayana or Shri Laxmi Vishnu sakshat Shri Adishakti Bhagwati Mataji Shri Nirmala Devi namoh namah". Then that block gives, the Kundalini rushes up to Sushumna Nadi and breaks into the Sahasrara. That is how we know.

You see, it is a direct experience. It far more satisfying than scientific experiment you can do in the laboratory because it is, you see it with your own eyes. You don't measure with any fancy instrument. You see with your own eyes, you say your own mantra and you see the effect.

Though I am a scientist, many of Mataji's disciples are scientists. Mataji herself is in fact scientist. She is a great scientist and she is the scientist of scientist and teacher of a scientist.

But those people, who refused because they say they are a scientist to believe what she says, they are many people, they are not really a scientist. Because, they are not looking, they are trying to say, it should be like this. A scientist never says, ‘It should be like this'. He always says ‘What is it?, How is it?'. He keeps an open mind. He never says it should be like this. If you say, it should be like this, then you will never discover anything.

As I can say as a scientist. Here you are many of you are students, you stand on the threshold. It is perhaps the biggest discovery that this world will ever know and use your scientific mind now to understand it, to discover it and later use your heart to enjoy it.