Mooladhara Chakra, Kovalam, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala, India, 9 February 1979.

...[TO THE] deity then the deity disappears from them, all right? The attention goes away from the place. Then they bring the Satan there and play the havoc. See these tantrikas have no relationship with our ancient Scriptures, no relationship at all. For example Rajnesh will never mention any one of our ancient Scriptures, nothing. They have no relationship with any deities. They have no relationship with any great writers we have had, like Adi Shankaracharya. Not a word. Holiness is the basis of religion and spirituality. In which Scripture this is written? Does he mean to say that he is, he has nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with God, nothing to do with anyone, but only sex? [Allude you?] people are really, why don't you think are you only sex point?

The interlocutor: So many things are written about it.

Shri Mataji: Because you people wanted.

The interlocutor: [INAUDIBLE]

Shri Mataji: Where is it?

The interlocutor: [INAUDIBLE]

Shri Mataji: No. No, no, no, no.

The interlocutor: There's nothing about sex?

Shri Mataji: Not a word.

The interlocutor: [INAUDIBLE]

Shri Mataji: No, no...What? You see that way these people have spoilt even ashwa medha yagna which was the..., such a great thing, you know. They have used it for their own purpose saying that this is the symbol of this. Even Shiva and Shakti, nonsensical people call it sex. How can you do that to God? You sublimate into that, the greater thing. What is sex? Every Dick, Tom, Harry can do sex...

The interlocutor: We are used to do it so...

Shri Mataji: Yes, then what? That's why they are telling you to do it and, but if you do it in a wrong way you'll have diseases, you'll have impotency, no children will be born to you if you misuse it. There is a sanctity about it.

The interlocutor: May I ask you a question?

Shri Mataji: Yes.
The interlocutor: Do you say that one should never use sex?

Shri Mataji: No, no, one should. One should be married. One should use sex. It's meant for a happy married life and for having children, and leading a very happy and a good life. You must have a good sex life. You see, we do not think of sex at all in India. Never. This is spontaneous. You see, we never think of sex and all this nonsense. We don't read about it. I mean, I can tell you except for few anglicised and westernised Indians whom you meet, you will hardly find anyone asking. Now they have met villagers. They don't even think about sex, is a thing, relationship with the wife, very sacred relationship. When you are with your wife, you see you indulge into it at the extreme point. That's all. We do not sit and read about sex. Why should you read about it? This is spontaneous thing. Why should you read?

The interlocutor: I don't read this.

Shri Mataji: That's it. But that's what they are doing it. This is another kind of Hitlerism. I can tell you this is another kind of a cruelty to human beings. See, you will be enticed absolutely; you would not find out, you will not know that this is a mistake. You'll get into it and then you'll realize it's a mistake. This is a destruction of your own being. By wars you have destroyed others. By this you will destroy yourself. What I say has a bearing in the Bible, has a bearing in Quran, has a bearing in what you call any of the Scriptures, of Upanishads and all that, every word of it, Gita and also of Adi Shankaracharya, every word of it.

He has made forty crores of rupees. This also you don't understand that he's playing on your ego. You think you can purchase him, you can handle him. You don't understand this, you see. He is too cunning for you.

The interlocutor: But how can you explain that so many western people....

Shri Mataji: Mad...

The interlocutor: ...went to him and go to him every time?

Shri Mataji: How can you explain so many Germans wanted to kill thousands of people like so many of them were burnt alive and put in the gas chamber? Do you, can you explain it? Very easy to befool you people, very easy. The trouble is you all think you are very clever. You can be outwitted by a cleverer cunning fellow. You are not cunning. You are only clever. Any cunning man can outwit you just like this. It's very easy to befool you. Then you should also think why is it that Indians do not even take his name in the morning? Indian Government is anxious to oust him. Why don't you think like that? If India is a place of wisdom, then why he is not at all respected in this country?

The interlocutor: In fact in all houses his name is also mentioned he's considered most inauspicious [INNAUDIBLE].

Shri Mataji: Inauspicious. In his house, you see, if anybody mentions his name in Indian homes we think it is inauspicious; we think he's a Ravana. He's the incarnation of Ravana, Rajnesh is.

The interlocutor: Incarnation of?

Shri Mataji: The Ravana.

The interlocutor: There is a...

Shri Mataji: The one who fought against Rama. Demon, he is a demon no doubt. He is what, is he not? He is, hundred per cent he is Ravana. Be sure of it. [Hindi talk to a child] She's a born realized child.

He is very nicely playing with your mind. In London, just imagine, in London, nine people got hold of a basement and took out their clothes and danced ecstatically, just take out all your clothes and say, "No, no, no, no, no, no". And they have within five months time, I don't know, they have thousands of people. They are buying the whole of London. Why can't you see this stupidity? I mean, at least at the time of Hitler you could say that people had this feeling to kill others. But in this, to be stupid is the feeling, is it? Absolute stupidity, nonsense. If by becoming naked you can reach God, then in the bathroom every day you are like that.

I told you that don't go in the sun too much. Be careful. You see, this is also very wrong the way you expose your body to sun. You will develop skin cancers. Believe Me, you will develop skin cancers. You shouldn't burn your skin so much. It's not a good thing, you know. For sun also, you cover yourself and take the thing. Otherwise you will develop skin cancers. You should not overdo anything. Extremes should be avoided. That is how you land into difficulties, [or/for] how many people in Sweden are committing suicide today? You are rich people. Why are you committing suicide? While you find there Indians so happy, don't you? They haven't got riches or anything. How are they happy? Even when they are starving they are happier. Why?

A person: I'm not sure whether they are so....

Shri Mataji: Not all, not all, but many.

The same person: Because India is also [UNCLEAR]. They are much influenced by Europeans as well as [unclear].

Shri Mataji: No, no... They could not influence us... They tried, they tried...

The same person: [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji: What is it?

People: Cultural....

Shri Mataji: What he say?

The same person: I think he says that also the India's cultural background is been modified like that, by the West.

Shri Mataji: That is true but still we are Indians.

The same person: [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji: Yes, I agree.

The same person: But you know it can be about of the mind of the Indian people, you know the source and the education of lot of Indians, you know.

Shri Mataji: That is what you are doing now to give us ideas. You see, you people are coming and give us, giving us ideas. See, we never knew that hashish could be sold like this. Now you are giving us ideas. Apart from that you are trying to develop our country, I agree, I agree, but there's a great aggression still on. But our this culture cannot be destroyed. Because our culture is a very deep thing, is very deeply built in our inside,you see. Our family structures cannot be destroyed easily. These are just permissions on the periphery, but inside India you cannot enter. You cannot. This is also another aggression, you don't know.,for us even the sex is an aggression from you people. We never had these ideas. For us it is difficult to maintain these horrible demons in this country but for you people who are maintaining them there. We would like them to be sent to you people so that you leave us alone with our auspiciousness, holiness and spirituality. It's a very subtle aggression coming to us and you people are saints. You must understand you were saints in India in previous lives. You have to understand our difficulty. You can have your sex, you can have your sex shops, you can have all nonsense, all your lives, doesn't matters, but for us you spare us now.

In India we have a very, absolutely different ideas about the saint. A saint has to lead a very holy life. He has to be a holy person, very kind, [affected/ effected / affectionate]. He doesn't take any money from you. He's not a parasite. He lives with self-respect. Villagers just laugh, you see. They cannot understand. If you tell them, "Why do you go and sell them hashish?" they said, "Only the children go and do it. We don't do it." I said, "The children will have the sin. Why do you go and tell them?" They said, "No, the children go and have bath in the..., they don't know. They are innocent so they don't understand." But they are committing sins by doing these things. You must understand it is a very serious matter, My children. It's a very serious matter and responsibility will be your own. You are saints and how are you going about it? Where is it, in which Scripture it is written that sex should be the criteria for a saint? All right, I don't say suppress it like that. Your churches have done nonsensical thing. Of course, that's all nonsense, I agree. ...But this is another extreme, one is the suppression of sex, all right? Like nunneries and all that âˆ' that's all nonsense âˆ' but the other is even worse. You are going from one extreme to another extreme. God is in the centre. This overexcitement and these wrong ideas, I don't know how I accept. [Unclear] It is high time you people now understand because it will be very late, later on. As you said, "Why" to Me? now I am giving you an example. It's a, it's a... sort of a hypnosis, a kind of a hypnosis. You are just hypnotised. He does not explain how he does. He does not as I do. They know how to do it themselves. They know all the methods, how it is done, how Kundalini is brought up, how your heart has got the Spirit, which is brought into your parasympathetic. It's all written down in our books, how to make it out.

As yesterday, that music you heard? Of chitananda lagari, you see you get these vibrations you must [UNCLEAR] that. This is what is written in our Scriptures, is there, and this is how one has to achieve. And even a person like Shankaracharya has said that, "Na yoghe na shanghena", means "neither by yoga", means the way you do Hatha yoga "neither by [unclear] works out" but it works out through the grace of Mother. A person like Shankaracharya, Adi Shankaracharya, such a learned man, who wrote Vivekachudamani, later on he just wrote the praise of Mother, that's all. He said, "Nothing more is needed." Now Rajnesh is just the opposite of it. He's teaching you how to insult your Mother.

Nothing was wrong with Freud as you can say, because you cannot understand what was wrong with him. You do not have the complete idea as to what you are. I will tell you just now what you are and what you have to achieve. I'm waiting for all of them to come. You just think over; it's a very big responsibility. You people have given up materialism, you have started seeking God. Why? Because you were saints in your last life. It is described that saints would be seeking much more in the Kali Yuga, at this time. When these demands started all these thugs have also started supplying. What is the transformation of the person who talks to you intermittently? What did he get within himself, an experience? What is an experienced [GW: experience?]? You see if he says is an experienc you should say, "Can you make out what's wrong with me?" Ask him. These people can make out. He told me this chakra is catching, you will also say. Isn't it? I mean, there should be some knowledge of yourself. You must get some knowledge within yourself. Your consciousness must have a wider dimension, you understand? Now he told me that your left Vishuddhi is catching. So I asked you left Swadishthan to be, to be settled. It pains you there also. Now he doesn't know where it pains you. How did he tell Me? See now. So he could feel that is chakra is catching.

The same person: Catched.

Shri Mataji: Catched, caught up. Now I ask you, "Do you feel guilty?" That's it. It has been other things also. All of them can tell you. All of them can tell you what's wrong with you. Even if you have ten Realized children here if you tie up their eyes they will tell the same thing, that this is catching in this person and you will also feel the same. You put your hands and you will feel this finger burning. See? When your sensitivity will improve you will also tell about others. It is your instrument must start working. What are the experiences you are talking about? Like a hashish experience, then like a hallucination experience, then other experience; you had many like that, you see. "I was very high. Somebody says I'm very high." But what did you get? You see, you are, you are just regarding to something by some sort of a chemical thing or a hypnosis. Still all of us have not come.

You have taken the photographs? Very nice then, I must say. I have professional photographs also. I think you are very good. Did a good job and we are all surprised. If you want you can take just now but they all have not yet arrived.

Sahaja Yogi: [INAUDIBLE] not coming?

Shri Mataji: No, but let Mr. George come and see Me. Tell him. Because he still gets sick, you see. I must [unclear]. You tell him today because tomorrow I won't have any chance. All right? If you want you can. Come along, come forward. This sit space is free if you want to get....

Now you are better. Much better now, see. See, you are in a way more sort of connected with Sanskrit language. You are the [UNCLEAR] connected with Sanskrit language. But I was surprised that how Germans were influenced by this horrible tantrikas. They, they don't know superficial things. You know, to know about tantrikas is like entering into the house through the sewage. First enter into the sewage only and then they got, I mean they never got any knowledge. No German has written about Shankaracharya. Most surprising. Not a word. They have written books after books over tantrikas, which is sewage for us, absolutely sewage. They could never enter because perhaps some way or other they were guided into it or taken into it. Mislaid completely. Even Jung I was surprised, even Jung, you see. Poor thing, you know, they, they come to whatever they read and whatever it is, they could never reach the reality. We have to reach to the bone of this country. Then only you'll get that peace and bliss which is promised. You must understand them not from outside but from inside. For that you have to go inside. But these all superficial experiences,if you depend on, then what's the use? [Hindi talk]

What's your name? You've done really that photograph? Eldon? Really? You see here you're walking or what? That's all right. She has got light also. Whatever comes in, in a general way... This is a very subtle happening; it's a very, very subtle happening. It is not a gross happening where you think of women and think of these dirty things that you've before liked having casinos and busy life. It is not like this. It's a deep happening. It's a very, very deep happening and a very subtle happening for you will have to be very, very religious people. While you have no idea of religion in that country, I can tell you. Religion is within, not without. Like there are some priests and they are coming ... We don't believe in our priests âˆ' just for play sake we do âˆ' but we don't think that they are saints. Saints are very different. So the value of saints is so much reduced because your Pope has started certifying somebody as a saint. Naturally the Pope himself is not a saint. How does he know somebody is a saint or not? So I don't blame you, naturally. You are quite a sort of disillusion, absolutely correct. But by, but once this disillusion melts you don't go to another religion also.

What is the reality? By knowing yourself you should know your inner being and you should know the inner beings of others, isn't it, Peter? Supposing you are an engineer, take it like that, all right? If you are an engineer, if you have become an engineer you will know about the instruments that are in your house and in anybody else's houses. [Hindi talk] Sit down, sit down. This is what should happen, by knowing self-knowledge means knowing yourself. What are you thinking about these experiences? You see, anybody can give you by putting you out somewhere. The experience of the Spirit is that by which you get the knowledge of your being and the knowledge of another person. Then something that you cannot achieve yourself, it has come [and dragged you as ...?]. It has to come [and drag you as...?]. If you can achieve God then He is no more God. If He is the Almighty then you cannot capture Him. He has to come to you, He has to give you, He has to do the job. This is like a kick you get, you see? What you call a kick, that kind of a kick which brings you [down?]. It gives you a kick. The way it is given a kick, you come down the same way. Nowhere in the scriptures is described it. Either you wipe out all the history of human beings and put these horrible people on the list, or this, their behaviour, their theories, must tally with the theories of the previous people. They must relate to that. So as I say, this is not a superficial thing, just a kick. It's a deep, embedded thing, which works out, flowers out. It's a reality, and reality takes time. Thousands of people going to Rajnesh itself suggest like it is plastic. There are gurus and gurus one better than other.

The interlocutor: Can I [UNCLEAR] Dalai Lama?

Shri Mataji: What Dalai Lama has done, also, think about... See, what you should do is to use your brains. Because somebody is a Dalai Lama must you accept? All right, what Dalai Lama has done, think it over. Has he given Realization to anyone? Has he transformed anybody's life, by which his life has become a king of happiness, joy? Has he given any peace to anyone? Think it over. You see, somebody says, "Now this is the place where you will get peace." You at least see the people who are coming out of it. Dalai Lama, I never knew was such a crook, to be very frank, till I sat just next to him because my husband was with the Prime Minister in Tibet. The Prime Minister sat so I could not come out, Lal Bahadur Shastri. So I sat next to him. I was just burning, all burning. So the Prime Minister said, "What's the matter?" I said, "Oh, God", I said, "Ma" in Hindi language, I said "You put Me on the other side". He was a parasite, [took tributes of?] such poor people. Sit down, sit down, good. He was just a parasite... Hello, how are you? Better? Now, that's it. Come along, sit down. If you want you can take another...Yes, good. He was like a parasite, and they were so poor, Tibetans were so poor, [when/Well] this man had nothing but some spirits, because of supraconscious. You will see that in Sahaja Yoga. See, we have people in this country who have called these spirits, what you call these, as we call it a smashan vidya. What do you say to smashan in English? premetorium, the knowledge of the premetorium you see. So they master some of the spirits, and they use these spirits for this purpose. They will tell you what horse you are going to win. Even that they can tell you.

Now we must understand what is the interest of God in these things. Why should God tell you who is going to win the horse, what's wrong with your father, who is going to become Dalai Lama, this, that? God has no interest in all that. He has only one interest, only one interest, that you become your self, that you get connected with the mains and start understanding Him and that the instrument that you are should have your fulfilment. That's the only interest He has. He doesn't believe in giving you kicks and these experiences so-called of such sort of a hashish and things, no. He wants to give you the complete understanding of yourself through your awareness. It's an actualisation. It is not just lecturing that I lecture you. Actually I was not going to give you a lecture because you said, "You must give us a lecture," so I am giving you. You ask them. I've been working on their back for hours together now. He will tell you, from Denmark. I have to work hard. While this Rajnesh works no hard and he has made forty crores of rupees. Just he is telling you that you go into sex like this. I still cannot understand how can you ask for a guru for this. Even a dog and a bitch knows. Don't deviate yourselves. You are the Spirit. You are not sex points. He will leave you to impotency, complete impotency. He'll destroy you completely. He's just trying to pamper your ego. He's just trying to say, "Oh, you are great, you are..." Then "You'll [UNCLEAR], you are very great." If you are a rich man then you are even greater. He knows all about your status and everything. He has all the interest in the rich people. In India also he's using the Indian women who are rich women and supplying them with men. We had a boy known as Mario, who came to me and told me that he was used by a lady of sixty-five years old for six months and this lady was giving money to him. I know her name also. Her name is Sharvishtak. I get disciples from him who had this illusion. But I would blame your brains only that you cannot understand these things. How can he? You understand machines, but you don't understand human beings. He plays on your ego, he pampers your ego and you like it. You have forgotten Christ completely. What was Christ like?

A person: ... He was a good man.

Shri Mataji: He was a very good man.

Same person: He was very, very.... full of knowledge more than other people at His time.

Shri Mataji: Not only.

Same person: If He lives now He would, He would....

Shri Mataji: You would deny Him.

Same person: He would get better over the time than some people around here.

Shri Mataji: No, He would not. You would deny Him much more than you would deny anybody else because, you see, He would not fit in to your conception of heavenly and Godly people. But only through Sahaja Yoga you will know that Christ exists within you here. You will know that He is there. You see when the Kundalini stops here you have to say Lord's Prayer and you have to take the name of Christ. Indians do it just like that because they know who He is, and they know more than you people.

Same person: I was thinking that still in everybody of us there's a Father God working. So we can ...

Shri Mataji: Yes...

Same person: So we can...

Shri Mataji: You can become that, all right. That's it, that's it, I'm....

Same person: I came just to see You. I've seen You one year ago, I don't know. You must remember, I've seen You in Delhi, [Kali Baba]. You were there, about a year ago.

Shri Mataji: Is it?

Same person: Yes.... You gave spontaneous Realization.

Shri Mataji: So now, that's what I am saying that there is a part in you now I will tell you today, once for good, all right? Now. Now this is the human being and [unclear]... All right? Now please pay attention fully. Just see here. All right. Here now this is the human being or you have read that God has made man in His own image. So God also, you can say, this is a microcosm on the base great God and you all are cells in it made in the same image as this one. Now how are you made? You are made from amoeba to a human being. All right? First you were even carbon, even matter. You were evolved from amoeba to this stage. Why were you evolved? How were you evolved, that you know. But why? These are different places of your evolution. Like when you are making a machine first you create a part of it, the base and then the upper part and the upper part, like that. The whole being that you are is created like this and these are the three main undercurrents, which have made you as a human being. This, this one, the first one , gives you the existence, the first one. This channel is called as the Ida Nadi. This channel gives you existence and passes over your heart where resides your Spirit. The Spirit has nothing to do....

[Hindi words] Come in, come in, come in. Sit down. Come this side. Sit down, sit down. You can come this side. The men can sit that side. You can come this side, and the ladies can... [Hindi talk]. Ah, you can sit there. They will come to this side. All the men should move this side. The ladies can sit there. It's all right.

So Indians know this better, that because it has the Virata, you see, God Almighty you can say, the Virata, in which we are small cells in His being. We are made the same way as the Virata is made, the Great Primordial Being, is Virata. In that blue line that you see is the undercurrent for our existence and called as Ida channel within us. Now these are subtle channels within us. It is for our existence and also it gives us the activity of our emotional life, left side. Also it gives you your subconscious area. Where whatever you are listening to Me now, goes into that, in your past. This is a recording of all your past and all the subtle recording of your past goes into this.

On the right side there is another channel here, which is golden color. This one is called as the Pingala Nadi or the Sun line. This is the Moon line and this is the Sun line within us called as Pingala Nadi, which gives us the physical being of our physical being and also our mental being. So we have left and right, two channels, Ida and Pingala. One is the moon line, another is the sun line. Now, this one outside is expressed,these two are expressed outside,this is the subtle current inside. In the medical terminology you can call them left and right sympathetic nervous systems. In the centre is our evolutionary path by which arising from the amoeba stage, from here, we have gone up gradually like that. From here we came first of all, from the carbon state to the amoeba state. Then we rose and there have been altogether line [GW: nine?] incarnations so far of the Divine power of evolution. So here the aspects of evolutionary divine power worked while this side the aspect of the existence and desire, aspect of God worked and this side this is physical being and the mental being or the creative being works on that. So God has mainly three aspects: one is the existence; second is the creation; and the third is the evolutionary aspect. This one represents the Shiva Tattwa, is the principle of Shiva or Sadashiva. This is the first and the last, it starts with this, manifests all these, again dissolves back. That's why it is called as Sadashiva. Then the second principle of creation is represented by Brahmadeva and His power is called as Saraswati. The third one in the centre, which is the evolutionary, is manifested through the incarnation of Vishnu, of Shri Vishnu. Shri Vishnu is here and when He grows to his full maturity He becomes this Virata. You go on developing from here up to this point. When you reach that point then only your Sahasrara, this petaled, as a thousand lotus petals, opens; it has got thousand petals. But you have to grow into a human being.

Now this is the point, lowest, is the centre, is the centre of innocence, occupied by Shri Ganesha, it has nothing to do with the evolutionary piercing. You see, this, this force that is here, the force residual energy that is here, the Kundalini, passes above it. Only this controls the protocol of this force, which is inside; this is the triangular bone called as the coccyx. You have got the triangular bone. This energy is placed in this; you can say like the coil it is kept there. This is the main. So this coil has to come out to go to the mains. Now this is a living process. It is an evolutionary, divine process. You cannot pay for it, first thing. It's like the plumule [GW: primule?] or you can call it, it is like the germinating force of a seed which sprouts by itself. You cannot force it. You cannot. You cannot do it. It just works spontaneously through the grace of a Realized soul. You cannot do anything about it except for one thing that is this portion, which you see here it gets stuck. This is the place where a human sustenance is regulated. This is the part of sustenance, of evolution. Now this portion of the stomach is being sustained and is guarded and guided by the forces of religion âˆ' not the religion you know of outside, like some Brahmins coming and doing Puja, or say some Pope giving you a lecture, not by that, but by maintaining it through your balancing system within yourselves, leading a life which is balanced and not extreme. Any extremes will take you out this side to the left, to the subconscious, the collective subconscious or this side to the supraconscious. So any extreme is against Me.

All the Ten Commandments described in the Bible are the ten religions we have to follow. This one is a very important thing for western people to understand. Of course in India they know that. I was just telling you that if you ask any Indian that you can reach God through sex, they'll just pull their ears to hear such a thing. But they have been told like this and they believe into it. The surprising [is/ thing?], just imagine. Even I mean, my husband when I told him he said that, "No, no. You see, they may not be believing but they must be just trying. They cannot. How can they believe such a silly thing?" He's an intelligent Indian and we have many here people intelligent ... Can you ever think such a thing will be accepted to us in India? She's a lady doctor sitting here. And because this is placed down below here, He's an embodiment of innocence. And this is your Mother, the Kundalini, sitting there. She's your Mother. Everybody has that Mother within him. And this Mother has to rise and open it out. This is not possible by forcing it. Nothing. If you are ready it will work out. Like a candle if it is ready, if it is not wet, then an enlightened candle can enlighten it without any difficulty. But if the candle is not all right, then the candle has to be put right.

That's what I've been doing for the last three days, you know, is to put your candle right. Once the candle is put right, then only the Kundalini is going to rise and give you that experience of the being by which you get this chitananda lahari, these vibrations, which are described in all the Scriptures that when you are realized these vibrations start flowing not just talking. I've seen many people just talk, "not good vibrations, bad vibrations". How do you know? You are not yet connected to the mains. Like this instrument, when you are connected to the mains the record is established, like a computer. You are made very carefully. For thousands of years this body has been created as a human being. And this is the last evolutionary thing that has to happen and get. For that you don't have to be [medical/very well] educated. There is no need for you to know much. On the contrary, simpler people get it just like that. The more you are complicated the more you'll get problems. Now cancer is the answer, because without cancer you will not understand. So cancer has come, just to teach you. This is the parasympathetic nervous system in the centre, which is giving you the energy to both the sides, like this. I will show you. This starts...