Conversation in Dr. Johnson’s House, Birmingham, UK, 17June 1979
This talk is the same as  the previous one: https://www.amruta.org/1979/06/16/this-is-not-the-work-of-mediocres/

Now, I think this is such a big subject that I don’t know how will I be able to give the complete idea about it. But so far, I think I have explained to you that you have a purpose in life, and there are milestones of your evolution placed within you as centres, subtle centres, which you can see with your eyes pulsating and can feel through the stethoscope. And here is ego and superego within you which has given you the freedom, an independent personality and you can act as independent people. And with this personality, only, you achieve that higher state. And when you achieve that, the manifestation of that Divine Force, through you, starts flowing. At the end of the day, I would say that you become a hollow personality; that you become the real instrument of God, that the power starts flowing through you and you see it flowing and working and you can manoeuvre it.

Of course, again talking about the snakes: they give you no powers whatsoever, and take away all the powers you have. But the whole Creation has been created, and you have been manifested as human beings to achieve your own powers.

So there’s a sweet story about Radha and Krishna: once they say Radha was jealous of Shri Krishna’s flute. So She went to Krishna and She said, “What is this? All the time you are putting her [flute] to your lips, I don’t like it.” He said, “Why? Are you jealous?” She said, “I am very jealous of her. What is her speciality? What is so special about her?” He said, “Why don’t you go and ask her?” He said, “It’s better that you go and ask her.” So She went and asked that, “What is your speciality that He’s all the time keeping you near His heart? And all the time He’s using you?” She laughed aloud and she said, “Do you know what is my speciality? My speciality is that I have no speciality. I have become a hollow person. I am absolutely hollow and He plays and the world enjoys and I see the thing flowing through me, and I just watch all that. And people say that it is the murli, it is the flute, that is playing. I just find I am just a hollow personality.” So Radha went to Krishna and She said, “All right, next time you make a hollow personality out of me!”

This is what it is! And whatever is promised has to be done, is to be done. God never makes promises which He doesn’t keep.

May God bless you all.

I hope you all will get Realisation and you will steady it. That’s very important, because as I have told you, it’s not meant for lousy people.

Thank you very much. I am so happy to see so many people here who are seekers, who are deep people, who have been seeking all their lives and they have to realise that this is the only way it has to be done.

As I said, I don’t know how people charge money for it: it’s something ridiculous and it’s very, very low, I mean, if you talk about it. You cannot charge money for your love. I work in India and they told me, “Mother, can you give us a list of people whom you have cured?” I said, “It’s very embarrassing. Don’t ask me such questions!” They said, “But you must give us the list of people whom you have cured!” I said, “I have never made a list.” So he said, “Oh really? Why not?” I said,“Do you make a list of people whom you feed? Whom you love? Whom you give them mercy, to your own children? Do you make a list of all that? How many times you have done washes to your children? Or you enjoy it so much [that] where is the time for all these nonsensical things?” Has to be! It’s very embarrassing I think.

It is that beautiful way of giving.

May God bless you again and again. And let’s see now what happens. How far you get it.

I would say we will ask some questions, and if you can ask some questions. But you should not be very sensitive about it. Because people ask me very, very direct questions and when I give them an answer they feel hurt. And I don’t want to hurt you for anything because you are already very much hurt. I do not want to hurt you. But it happens, and it happens like that, that you ask funny questions and when I tell you the answer, sometimes you feel hurt. So just ask me questions.

Seeker: When I go into relaxation I get convulsions in the abdominal area.

Shri Mataji: How can that be relaxation my child? Just tell me. How can that be if there are convulsions? It’s a sickness. It’s a possession.

Have you seen possessed people? They get the same thing. When they are possessed they get the same thing. They feel relaxed because somebody else has taken their responsibility, but physically they can’t bear the pressure and they have contortions. It’s very easy to find out: you must be having lots of lunatic asylums here, you can go and see them, when they are possessed how they behave. Say, epilepsy is one of them. If you have seen in epilepsy how people get into a kind of a posture from where they cannot get out for hours together. It is possession.

It’s not only that your stomach will be absolutely relaxed but you will relax the stomachs of others.

Seeker: Will this take us to God realisation?

Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?

Seeker: Will this take us to God realisation? This Self-realisation, will this take us to God?

Shri Mataji: Of course, of course! You see there are some people [who] just arrive there very fast, but some people go through certain stages.

The first stage of Realisation, when the Kundalini crosses over the Agnya Chakra, is called as Thoughtless Awareness. Only with this Thoughtless Awareness you can start curing people. You can cure people if your Kundalini has crossed the Agnya. That’s how you find many people can cure, but they don’t know how to do it, they don’t know how to manoeuvre it.

And then we have the Kundalini rising above the fontanel, which we can call as the time, I call it, as Self-realisation. Because that’s the time you become another human being with collective consciousness. With that, you can start giving Realisation to others, correcting your own chakras, everybody’s chakras, and you can start feeling it. So many things will happen. I mean it’s endless. I cannot  tell you how you realise the bliss of the Divine by that.

It’s something so wonderful that you will be amazed. We have here one Sahaj Yogi. In the beginning, you know, I had only six of the for four years, for your information, in England. And I worked with six of them. And one of them in the beginning felt like, “Let’s see how this collective consciousness works!” So he said, “My father has not written any letter to me.” I said, “All right, you don’t write to him, you just think about him and feel his vibrations.” He started getting a heat here and burning here. He said, “Mother what does that mean?” I said, “All these centres are of you father. So you telephone to him and find out. He must be having bronchitis.” He had bronchitis. But when the fellow talked to him, his bronchitis got all right. It’s that fantastic.

So from Thoughtless Awareness you jump into collective consciousness, collective awareness. This collective awareness gives you the powers of collective consciousness by which you cure others. Even sitting down here you can cure other people, you can awaken their Kundalini, even give them Realisation. But that person you talk to on the phone should be connected and that he should know that there is a movement by some deliberations of somebody who is, we call, a Sahaj Yogi.

Then the third state is complete Self-realisation. That state comes, we call it as Nirvikalpa Samadhi, means where there is doubtless awareness, that you have no doubts anymore left about it. It’s not rational but it is a state in which you settle down.

In that state you have no doubts anymore about it. Then the powers are dynamic, and you start working on so many dimensions that you are amazed how things work out.

For example, I’ll tell you we have a lady here, I must say she is doubtlessly aware. She doesn’t feel anybody’s chakras or her chakras. All the time her vibrations are throughout. She wrote a letter to me saying that, “Mother there is a girl who has got cancer, she is about ten, eleven years of age and I don’t know how we can help her. She has come all the way from Hong Kong and they are saying that she has to die in about three months time.” I said, “All right.” “And she’s now going to America for further check up.” So she went to America and the American doctor said, “She has no cancer, nothing. Who told you she has cancer?” This is [just] one of the many times some dynamic things that will happen. At first you cannot believe it, it is so fantastic.

So this is the state of doubtless awareness. First the thoughtless awareness, then the doubtless awareness.

Now, the ‘awareness’ word, you see, is, in the dream we call it awareness only. Say, now, I say that normally what we are, in conscious mind, is a dream. So this is also awareness. And even after that is awareness. But in Sanskrit there are two words: one is ‘buddha’, another is ‘prabuddha’. If you put ‘pra’, means ‘enlightened’. So we should call it ‘enlightened awareness’. So it is thoughtless, enlightened awareness. And enlightened awareness is also termed as ‘samadhi’: so is ‘nirvichar samadhi’. And the second one is the doubtless, enlightened awareness: is the ‘nirvikalpa samadhi’, where there is no vikalpa.

Now this also is the term one has to understand, very carefully, what is a ‘vikalpa’. But I think that I will do some other time. And this is what is the Self-realisation. When you have achieved that, then there is God’s realisation [which] starts, where you start controlling the nature, you start controlling all that you see and you become the master of all that, but you do everything for the hita (हित), means for the well-being of your own and of the whole.

Your connection with the whole becomes absolutely clear cut when you become God-realised.

Means your awareness becomes so clear and so much effective as if people would say that, “Look at this man! How does he do it? And how it happens?” That is the state also responsible. After all the whole Creation has been through Sahaja only – spontaneous. And in the same way this is also spontaneous.

There are only two persons, though they were born to incarnations, who were Divine, and who became themselves incarnations. They were born as human beings but became themselves incarnations. But even that gap can be covered. Why not?

Seeker: Mother you also say that there are many yogic people teaching the wrong things in the himalayas. Why does God allow this?

Shri Mataji: He doesn’t allow. You allow. I have told you, you have the freedom to choose. First thing you should know: a man who takes money, how can that be near God?

You remember, you have Christ before you. You know he took one whip and whipped these people in the church. A man like him who said, “Forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.” He whipped them. He whipped those people. That’s what they deserved, and you went to them and bowed to them. While you are all very intelligent people and why such intelligent people are being attracted to this kind of a nonsense and an absurd thing? While poor simple uneducated are better off. They know, “Oh we understand all that!” They are not stupid. You must understand [that] when you have money, all such thugs are going to come down here.

I’ll take the other position now, let’s see: supposing somebody comes out of the jail, in India, he has no social position. He cannot live socially well. So he says, “All right, let me take another form,” or “let me have a drama.” He makes a camouflage out of it. He makes a person who is very saintly – oh, very poor – now he greets you there. Or he may even master some of the ??, makes no difference. Then he comes out. He says, “You see, I will show you the water will come out of the earth, just now.” Previously he night he must have arranged that there might be a pipeline going, and he must have put some sort of a clock there, and which he must have picked up and shown you that the water is coming out. And people will say, “Oh, this is a great miracle! He hit there and the water has started coming!” So the sensible person has to go from the back door and see how he lives. And see about the pipeline. You should be on the alert. This alertness, if you do not keep in spirituality....even after Realisation you have to be alert about your attention. First the alertness is about others, but after Realisation the alertness is about you, because within you there are thieves who have come inside you, so you have to watch that.

But you people are so simple and so innocent. And I really don’t want to even blame your freedom for it, really, because they did a good job of it, no doubt about it.

Seeker: May I ask one? If you get Realisation, one raises the Kundalini and gets Realisation. Do you have to repeat that or is once enough?

Shri Mataji: Yah, yah. You have to. You see with some people it just goes [up] and goes down. One horrible guru we have in India. I don’t know what he’s done that you raise the Kundalini, you bring it up and it again sucks back. Again you bring it up and again it is sucked back. Oh, you don’t know how much one has to work hard. With some people it is not. But one has to work hard, morning till evening the whole night. Last night I think we slept about 2:30. Oh, it’s a terrible job, [but] it has to be done. But there is no guarantee about it.

Now, you will understand one thing, very simple it is, because you are coming from a different experience relative to God, that here nothing is selling, nothing is guaranteed. It’s the whim that you get your Realisation. It’s God’s whim that He gives you Realisation. It’s in complete freedom that He sits there. You cannot overpower His freedom, because He’s not seeking elections. You are to elect Him. It’s the other way round towards Him,  you see? So there is no guarantee of anything. Do you understand such a situation?

Seeker: We desire it, we have to desire it, for God. And we go to a guru and perhaps our discernment, our rationalisation, our alertness, isn’t as acute as it should be.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Seeker: How can these people, these men, continue and speak of God in such glowing terms, such heightened terms?

Shri Mataji: They have no Kundalini, they have no Spirit. They have achieved there doom a long time back. You see, a person who is absolutely shameless, what can you do about such a person? They do not want their ascent. As the story is there were some monkeys playing, and one of the monkey’s tail was cut, so he wanted everybody’s tail to be cut. That is their attitude: they want everybody’s tail to be cut! Only thing that you can do is not to have anything to do with them.

Seeker: How then do we know an authentic person who will take us to God?

Shri Mataji: How do we know? Because if a person makes you authentic, that person is definitely authentic! You can see very clearly, you see, when they say, “We’ll give you these powers and this.” You cannot manoeuvre them! You cannot understand them, you do not even have the know-how. You see, how do I say you are an authentic engineer? Because you know engineering. All right? That’s how you are authentic. If you do not know how to do anything, how are you authentic? So the one who gives you the authenticity itself, is authentic. If he gives you the powers by which you know the know-hows and you yourself can bestow those powers to others, then you can say it is authentic, isn’t it. Oh, you all know all about it!

I’ll tell you what happens. Now, I’ll tell you what it is that disturbs you. Why it has happened, I will tell you. You see, they are Greek so they have to be translated. Don’t get upset about it. What has happened, really, should I tell you?

Now, the thing that has happened is that you developed your societies, you developed your countries and you became developed countries. You developed your brains also too much, and the whole thing was the Right Side movement as we call it: too much mental activities. You started analysing everything. You thought you can analyse everything, you can do everything. And you developed too much of ego.

We can say about fifty years back the ego of say a British person, was so great that it was pushing all the superego on one side. But then the suppression became painful and hurting you. So the other people who followed them, they tried to push it back again. All right? They said, “No, this is too much of ego, we just can’t bear it, it’s colossal! They are a bit too egoistical.” So they started pushing their superego too much. Now when you start doing that, what happens [is] that the wobbling starts in your brain and you are not sure as to whether it was ego or superego, you could not understand. This was the first beginning. Then the war broke out, Hitler came in and he broke your families, he broke your values in something sublime and supreme. All these things happened. Then people like Freud and all that came in to give you another kind of thoughts which also destroyed you.

Now you were in uncertain conditions, and uncertain thinking. You were basically in that position. So when something came from a foreign country, about which you had no knowledge, an ignorance, you thought, “Better not think about it because by thinking what have we done? By thinking we have invaded other countries. By thinking we have ruined our families. By thinking we have done. So better not think about it, let’s accept it. Whatever they say, let’s accept it.”  And when they came out with great words like ‘peace of the world’ , ‘a domain of this and that’ you just were charmed by that. But naturally.

Then I would say, that you are the right people for Sahaj Yoga, and you are the people. You are those supreme people who have been selected by these thugs, because now you know all the methods of the thug and you are not going to go more in that. This is for the immunity to be developed within you, that you had to go there. And there’s nothing to fear, because your Mother is quite capable. You are the ones crucified for others, because you could only do that. It was only your strength that could bear it out. It was nice that strong flowers were taken out. If they were just very weak flowers you would have been finished! So you had to play that role. Why worry about it? We are going to work it out so don’t worry about the past. You are the ??. Doesn’t matter. Moreover you will be surprised: unless and until human beings go through such experiences, they do not come to Sahaj Yoga also.

Do you know, these boys wanted me to go to Brighton, I said, “Right! You go to Brighton, then I’ll join! Not now!” Because I have been to Brighton, I know what sort of a place it is. And I don’t know, but poor things, they accepted it, and went down to Brighton. And not a single soul came to the programme. But there’s another horrible one there, which they are all jumping, shouting. They are increasing in sizes so much that they have to take another place and another place, and it’s going on there so let them go through that. What am I to do? I cannot force you.

You know, I started my work in 1970, actually, but with one person. In this England, for four years, I worked with six people, as I told you. So, it’s all right.

Most of them, even, they come in a big group sometimes. Yesterday for example we went down to another place, and most of them who were there, most of them except two or three, they were sick with something so I was improving their throats and one lady was having epilepsy, another was having another trouble, and I was just improving them.

So you are the ones which are described, what we call the real, valley entity. So what does it matter? Nothing has gone wrong with you. Not to feel very down. I’ll do it very carefully. You won’t be hurt at all. You are going to get the whole of it, and all the secrets, all the secrets. And you are going to master this art and you are going to change the whole world, don’t you worry.

You will know your powers very soon, how dynamic you are. So don’t get upset about it, and don’t harbour about the past. Somebody has to build the road. It’s nice they chose such strong children of mine. I am very happy that they did not put their hands on the crippled ones. So there’s nothing to worry about. All right?

May God bless you.

What’s that? Are there any other questions? No?

Shri Mataji: Yes my child?

Seeker: Can you explain what we have been told about karma?

Shri Mataji: Karma? All right. That, I must explain to you. This is another story. But where did they get it I don’t know, that “You have done your karmas, you must cleanse it.” Then why are they there? What are they doing? These are the sweepers, why don’t they sweep all the dirt? Why should we clean the dirt? You are paying them! They are paid for it!

Who does the karmas? Do you know that? The ego does the karmas. Do the animals feel that they have done any karmas? They do not accumulate any filth. Why do we accumulate our karmas? Because our ego is there. Because you feel “I am doing it.” All right? But you don’t do anything actually, you know.

I tell a story about some villagers going on an aeroplane, and they were told not to carry too much luggage, so they were very cautious. When they sat down, they took all their luggage and put it on their heads. People said, “Why?” They said, “You see we don’t want the aeroplane to carry too much luggage.” In the same way you are carrying your karmas! It is absurd! It’s only your ego that does the karmas. When your ego falls down, when you are opened out, you do not do any karmas, you know that you do not do it.

It’s very nicely explained in the [Bhagavad] Geeta. Because these people have not told you anything about it. It’s so clear cut, that the karmas become akarmas when you get Realisation. Gyan, what is gyana is awareness. When the awareness is enlightened then you become prabuddha. That means your ego falls off on both the sides. Ego is no more there. The myth of doing karma is finished. And these people play on that myth by saying, “All right, you are carrying this luggage? Now you better carry even the aeroplane on your heads!” (Laughter)

You better put all these aeroplanes on their heads. And their karmas, who is going to cleanse them? Have they thought of it? They are talking about your karmas, but what about their karmas?

Karma is a myth, as long as you are in a myth. For example in a dream you are running fast to save yourself from the police. You are running fast, you cannot find a ladder, you find half of it and you jump onto this and jump onto that. When the dream is over, if I tell you, “Now, better you jump!” You will say, “Oh, the dream is over!” Instead of awakening you, if I say, “All right, run, run, run. Still the police is after you!” Then the police will catch hold of them, those police.

It’s all mythical. It’s said very clearly that it becomes akarma. Like the sun giving you the rays: does it do any work? No it just emits, it just emits. Like people say, “Mother you must be very much working hard.” But no, you see, it just emits. I don’t do any work, nothing, it just emits. That’s my nature. It just flows.

Some say, “Mother, how can we return it back.” Like we had one girl, she said, “Mother I know very good how to massage your feet.” I said, “All right, come along. Do it.” She started massaging my feet and her feet became relaxed and she felt relaxed and she felt like sleeping. So she said, “What’s this Mother?” I said, “This is what it is!” Because I don’t do anything. Absolutely a lazy person! Just sitting down. It just emits it just flows, it works.

Like the sun’s rays come and change the whole world, the chlorophyll is created, but the sun doesn’t say, “I do it. I have done this.” This is exactly what happens to you when you get Realisation, the vibrations start flowing, then you say, “Mother it is not rising.” You never say, “I am not doing it.” “It is not coming, it is not working.” You talk in the third person. You never talk in your own way that, “I have not done it. I have not achieved it.” “I have given Realisation.” You never say that! You say, “He is not realised.” Now, [if] your own son is there, [if] he is not realised, “You say, you know, Mother, it’s not working. What to do?”

So the karmas, whatever are done, are not felt, so where is the phala (फल: fruit) about it, what is the fruit about it? Nothing! I will have to give you another lecture on Geeta, I think, then you will understand that you do not do any karmas and there are no phalas about it. It is just a myth. And this is what Shri Krishna wanted you to realise, so He played His diplomacy. And I will tell you about His tricks, because I am the only one who knows. Then you will all know about His tricks: that you don’t do any karmas, so there is no phala about it. But when you are in the dream you cannot say this. When you are awakened then you just feel, you say, “No it’s not going. It’s not coming. It’s not working. It doesn’t  work out. It’s not solved.”

Today before coming here I went to see a cancer patient. Her own daughter was saying, “Mother no, it’s not flowing. Still it’s not coming up. It’s the left catching, the right catching. This side and that.” And the lady herself has touched Realisation. She was saying, “Yes, Mother, still my left is bad.” She herself was saying so. So they say, “That is left, that is right, that is front, that is another one.” Like the children say. If you take a child and say, “Now, will you go home?” So they say, “This boy will not go!” That means they are different from ‘this boy’: “This boy will not go.” They speak in [the] third person. In the same way you also speak in the third person. The whole thing becomes akarma. So the myth has to break, the dream has to dissolve.

Seeker: Does that mean there is no reincarnation?

Shri Mataji: How can you say that? “There is no karma, there is no reincarnation,” all these are their ideas, nonsense. They talk like that. Then why did Krishna Himself reincarnate so many times on this Earth? Did he have any karmas? He was Yogeshwara himself. You should ask them, “Why did He reincarnate? Did He not?” He came as a fish, then He came as this and that and that, and then He came as Rama, Parashurama, and then He came as Shri Krishna: Why? How? Because He, at least, was beyond karmas.

Actually I would explain that, how it works out, and you will all understand – this is all Right Side activities – that, when the whole machinery was set up, the whole office was set up, there had to be some officers appointed. So the people were selected out of their good deeds and good behaviour. They were made into Gods and were put permanently into places to act as officers. Like you have an officer here who will allow you to come inside the hall. A public place, or you can say, a public office, has got officers appointed. But you are the people who are going to be received, you see. For example, the queen has to come, so you appoint somebody, you see to the coach, another one is appointed to see to the laying of the red carpet. Then third is appointed with the flower bouquet there, standing. And when the queen comes they are positioned in their places. They need not reincarnate.

But you are to enter into the hall. You have to come onto the stage. It is you for whom all these permanent fixtures were created. Why do you want to be some permanent fixtures there? We have had enough of them.

Who’s going to come on the stage? Who is going to be adorned? We are in the central path. They are all settled on the right hand side and  left hand side. These are called ‘ganas’ on the left hand side and on the right...

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..why this universe was created? Why all these elements were created and then Gods were created? Why? All these chiranjeevas (चिरञ्जीव) were created: those who achieved the state of permanence, the chiranjeevas are. Why? Just to evolve you.

All right? Which is the other myth they have given you?

Seeker: Can you talk a bit more on ego. It seems that the ego is the main problem. You have to go beyond that.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no! It’s not ego, it can be both. My child it could be ego or a superego. You see, actually, nowadays it is more superego. You will be surprised.

Seeker: Like you are saying going beyond the ego.

Shri Mataji: No. Not only ego. It could be ego or superego. I’ll tell you how. I must tell you about ego and superego so you will understand.

An example of ego is that, say, a child is having the milk from the mother: in complete joy, the child is, and then you remove the child from that joy. Then he develops the ego. He says, “Why have you done it?!!” Then you tell him, “Don’t do like that!” Then you develop the superego within you. So the conditionings come through superego. And the ego is the one through which you assert yourself. And the superego is the one through which you receive conditionings.

So both could be there. And with the people who have been to these funny, horrible, people, more is the superego than the ego I tell you. I wish they were more egoistical to really slap them nicely on their faces. But they were not. They were so humble to accept them, so they are conditioned, they are more conditioned and much more affected by superego than by ego.

So we have so many cases of superego nowadays.

Seeker: How can we be obstructed?

Shri Mataji: You can be if there is [something] wrong with your chakras, there is an obstruction (baddha) in you. But the Kundalini Itself looks after it. She Herself works it out. Then you can get vibrations there by other Sahaj Yogis. They can help you. They will have to jolly well help you because they will feel the obstruction within themselves!

Unless and until you feel all right, I am not going to feel all right myself: whether it is two nights or five nights makes no difference. It is that way. I mean otherwise, even if you try to save somebody who is getting drowned, if you think you are doing it for others you are sadly mistaken. It is somebody in you who is getting drowned, that’s why you are there.

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