I think you missed something there, Mr. Kim. If you would dig back to that
original post, you'll see that I said something that amounted to 'all else
being equal, or near equal, opt for the faster weapon'.
Here's a few hard numbers to chew on:
The actual formula for double attack is (SKILL+LEVEL)/500, with the integer
converted to a percentage. 50th level with 200 skill equals 250/500, with
.50 being the result. 50 percent chance to double attack. Monks cap at 250
in DA, all other classes cap at 200.
For dual wield, it's (SKILL+LEVEL)/600. 50th level with 200 skill equals 40
percent. Monks cap in Dual Wield at 250, and rogues cap at 210. All other
classes cap at 200. Also, once dual wield exceeds 149 in skill, checks are
made to see if you double attack with the secondary as well, provided you
have double attack as a skill. This check is based on your dual wield
skill, and its corresponding percentage chance.
[For those of you wondering why monks get such a bonus in DA/DW, keep in
mind that monk hand speed never drops below 30. They need the increased
attacks to remain competitive with other melee classes who can use faster
weapons, weapons with proc effects, etc.]
I'm not going to bore you all to tears with all the charting and the
formulae used, Monte Carlo simulations, how the fixed damage bonuses due to
strength, offense and weapons skills seriously skew the results in favor of
speed, and about half a dozen other variables. Most of those numbers are
intentionally and forever hidden from the end users view.
Suffice it to say with two weapons of a given efficiency, the faster will
always win out in terms of real damage in any time period beyond 30 seconds.
And, the faster the weapon is (while maintaining the same eff. rating), the
wider the gap in damage results between it and the slower weapon.
Here's an example:
Using round numbers here, and mythical weapons, both with a .25 efficiency
rating, a 5 dam/20 delay and a 10dam/40 delay weapon. All results assume a
50th level player, with 200 in all his combat skills, and 100 STR.
The 5 dam/20 delay weapon will outperform a 10dam/40 delay weapon by about
27 percent in a two minute time period, in the primary. If you have double
attack, it goes up to 44 percent, thanks to double the amount of DA
activation checks.
It will outperform by 39 percent if used in the secondary, mainly thanks to
twice as many DW activation checks.
If your class is capable of 'quad' attacks (see above), it goes up to a
staggering 73 percent overall spread between the faster and the slower
weapons.
Now, this is an extreme example, most real world weapons aren't that
polarized. But you can still expect a marked advantage over the faster
weapon. Enough of an advantage to even sacrifice some small amount of
efficiency in favor of speed. A well balanced scimitar, (5 dam/21 delay,
.238 eff rating), outdoes a barbed leather whip,( 7 dam/28 delay, .25 eff
rating), by 14 percent in a two minute period used as the primary, and 19
percent as the secondary.
At 50th level, in pure melee combat, two minutes is pretty close to how long
a typical fight lasts. Drop the time period down to one minute, the gap
narrows, but is still evident. Drop it down to 30 seconds, it's a dead
heat, still. Anything less than 30 seconds tends to favor the whip.
You can run this trend down all the way to 17th level for a bard, and the
corresponding skill levels, the spread remains the same for primary weapons,
and reaches it's narrowest point with secondary, but it's still within 10
percent of the peak spread.
This, by the way, totally disregards the target's defense, assuming a
randomized hit with every swing. If you factor in the highly variable
factors of target defense and AC, first you go nuts, then you come up with
results even more in favor of the faster weapon, as you get more chances to
hit as well.
There are some cases, though, where the raw damage numbers DO matter.
Fighting mobs with damage shields(druids, fire elementals, etc), it's best
to use a slower, heavier damage weapon, to minimize the damage YOU take.
For a Rogue, your backstab damage is predicated on the amount of normal
melee damage you can inflict with one hit, as backstab is simply a fixed
multiplier(based on skill and level) on a normally resolved pierce attack.
Higher the base number, the bigger the backstab.
If you take a look at the good 2h weapons, you'll find they are generally
*much* more efficient than a 1h weapon, by as much as 100 percent.
They HAVE to be, to make up for being so much slower than the 1h
counterparts, and to compete with dual wield. 2h weapons, especially 2h
slash, are purpose designed to be the most efficient weapons in the game.
They don't break the above results, at all, but the natural efficiency
brings the curve around again, offsetting reduced attack chances.
Sorry for using such a large chunk of bandwidth, this was never intended to
be such a lengthy thread on my part, simply an interjection, and a lot of it
was due to perhaps less than clear language from me. This is my attempt to
correct that.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Kim [mailto:kim@...]
>> Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 10:01 AM
>> To: eqbards@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [eqbards] Not really Bard specific
>>
>>
>> Oh I completely agree, most of what he says is spot on. But
>> this was just plain wrong. :-) He was considering only one
>> attribute (weapon speed) when slecting the best weapon to have
>> in your second hand. While I agree speed is of overriding
>> importance if you're trying to rapidly increase the dual wield
>> skill, once you have it maxed it's damage rate you want to
>> maximize. Damage rate is determined by speed *and* damage, so
>> the rule of "fastest weapon" does not apply any more.