Stuart Carlton 0:00
Welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes a podcast in which I get someone who is smarter and harder working than I am to teach me about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton I'm assistant director with Illinois, Indiana secrets. And I'm joined this week by Renie Miles. Hey, Renie, how are you?

Renie Miles 0:23
I'm pretty good. How are you?

Stuart Carlton 0:24
I am also good. Good-ish. 

Renie Miles 0:24
And I just wanted to throw out my bad joke is that I'm a longtime listener. First time co host There we go. Longtime listener first time co host but always with us in spirit reading miles. Yeah, I'm doing okay. Rainy. It's starting to get to me. I'll be honest, we're in I don't even know what week I think week 724 of the lockdown. And yeah, just I know just yet even for introverts. It takes its toll.

Stuart Carlton 0:58
I never knew how extroverted I was. And so we've talked on past episodes, as you know, as a longtime listener, first time co host, we've talked with a couple of experts on, you know, sort of the safety of going outside. Is it safe to do is it socially responsible to do and how to do in a way that is safe and socially responsible? But, but I think there's more to the story of why we might want to do it, you know, because I think everybody's feeling stir crazy. Everybody's feeling cooped up. And so I wanted to talk about that in detail. Unfortunately, you have a friend, you know, somebody who is an expert in this?

Renie Miles 1:35
I do.

Stuart Carlton 1:36
Yes, yeah. An old friend, an old friend. I mean, she's not old, but she's been your friend for a long time. Anyway, and so we're excited to have our guests. Our guest today is Dr. Ming Ko. She's the head of the landscape and human health lab, where she studies on the connection between natural faeces features, not natural feces, that's different lab, natural features and human and physical and mental health. And so let's Kick on the interstitial music and then we will bring in our guest min. co thank you so much for joining us on teach me about the Great Lakes. How are you today?

Ming Kuo 2:13
I'm good. Thank you for having me on.

Stuart Carlton 2:15
Oh, we're thrilled. So I'm really interested in the work that you do but let's start really big picture. So you research the connection between people and nature and how that helps people be physically and mentally more healthy. How did you how did you get into that kind of a field? What made you want to study that?

Ming Kuo 2:31
Well, I'm the kind of funny thing here is that I'm not a I wasn't a nature lover who was sort of determined to show how good natures I was interested in the dark side of the physical environment. how crowded or noisy or difficult settings, challenging settings made us debilitated us or affected our emotionals and I actually studied in inner city Chicago for a while with the with the secret aim of Studying all the evil things, and but I got the money from the Forest Service. And sure enough, it turned out to my complete surprise or not not complete, but very large surprise that the amount of greenery around Chicago public housing, apartment buildings really made kind of huge differences in many different ways. So I've just been kind of following that up my whole career.

Stuart Carlton 3:27
No kids like what kind of what what do you so you were you were studying in the inner city? And you sort of did some sort of measurements of like, how much green space there was, I don't know, you kind of trees or parks or something? And what kind of differences Did you find there?

Ming Kuo 3:41
Oh, gosh, there's a whole range. So I guess there's a whole series of effects I would talk about I would describe as individual functioning and then there's also neighborhood health and functioning. So on the individual level, people were coping better they were dealing with big challenges, and just in their lives in a more effective way. They were, they had better impulse control, better cognitive functioning, so they were able to concentrate better. They were getting along with their neighbors, which kind of leads into this sort of neighborhood level effects we're seeing, or we saw people getting along better, less aggression, less violence, both by residents sort of own reporting of what they did. And also crime statistics. So, so we saw sort of healthier, safer, stronger neighborhoods. Wherever we had more, more greenery. And because it's public housing, everyone is everyone is poor, and people are randomly assigned to different buildings. Alright, so it actually was a really good study system then. Right, because you had sort of natural controls, I guess. Exactly. Yeah. For a scientist, Chicago Public Housing is kind To order

Stuart Carlton 5:02
maybe only first. It's Yeah, still. That's that's so that's really fascinating. So you're saying that just the presence of Grenier when you control for other things, or greenspace just made a really wide ranging difference in terms of individual and neighborhood level outcomes. Yeah. That's fascinating. Remember itself.

Renie Miles 5:20
And main, can you talk about, more generally what you found since then, in terms of the benefits of being in a natural environment for people?

Ming Kuo 5:32
Ah, I think two of the main themes have been academic achievement is, well, three sorry. Sure, if I keep thinking about it, I'll come up with more academic achievement, we seem to be we have very consistent patterns of greener schools having higher academic achievement even after you take into account poverty and other kinds of things raised bilinguals status. And furthermore those schools that get greened show a bump in academic achievement shortly thereafter, and then that bump sort of continues each year after the after the greeting happens. So we've got academic achievement, we've got attention deficit hyperactivity disorder symptoms seem to be systematically reduced after kids have had a little bit of green time. And that's not just true for the hyperactive ones, who probably they're they're going to have a reduction in ADHD symptoms just because they got to be physically active. But your attention deficit kids who don't have hyperactivity, they show the same, same benefits. I'm starting to look at physical health outcomes.

Stuart Carlton 6:53
Even with kids, I can think about that a lot because I've got I've three now I have three kids at home and we've been cooped up with with, you know, the social distancing stuff and and on the days and the weather has been crap, like, you know, it's the Midwest weather is crap this time of year but it's getting better. And and on the days where we can go outside I think I see that difference and part of its energy but we have we have a basement where they can run around and stuff and I think I think I can see that nature exposure making a difference, like even on that short timescale. Does that pass the sniff test for you? I guess, can it be like on that sort of timescale? Or is it more because of a repeated exposure over time?

Ming Kuo 7:30
Oh, no, actually, or, yeah. It does pass the sniff test. And kind of that's one of the great things about studying the effects of nature on people is it turns out to be hugely powerful and fast. And so, you know, for a scientist, it's really nice when you run studies and they keep coming up the way you expect. So even when you give people a little tiny doses of nature, so five minutes of playing With soils substantially reduce or change your serotonin, or the smell of roses for five minutes or the smell of other fight insides, the fighting sites are these, or the sets that give off that are given off by various like pine and lavender. There's, you know, we can actually watch your physiology we spritz you with little pine scent. And voila, we watch your heart rate decrease and just all your indicators look better.

Stuart Carlton 8:36
Holy mackerel.

Renie Miles 8:39
So Ming, can you talk a little bit about us being in this COVID crisis and what some, some benefits might be related to what's going on with us?

Ming Kuo 8:53
Yeah, I'm really glad to talk about that because I've been thinking about the effects of, I'm caught. I'm going to call it crisis virus crisis syndrome,

Stuart Carlton 9:02
virus crisis syndrome,

Ming Kuo 9:05
VCS, I guess. VCS is virus crisis syndrome are the effects of being in the crisis not the effects of the crisis sorry the virus itself. So just sort of living through this pandemic even aside from even if you're completely well right. So I there are a whole bunch of effects and any given listener may experience some or some or none of them but some things that you may be experiencing are first of all, just the kind of mental fog or, or what I call the curly symptom. If you remember The Three Stooges curly would sometimes Sam I'm trying to think nothing happens. Sir finally that that's, that's almost become a way of life. You know, we're having trouble making decisions. We can't solve problems the way we normally can. We can't do mental work the way we are It's harder or we can just only do it for a little while before we have to take a break or we just our mind just kind of wanders off into some other topic.

Renie Miles 10:08
But you've been watching me haven't.

Ming Kuo 10:13
This is just self report here. Another cognitive effect. That that's likely is what I call the hamster wheel of rumination is when when you're right when your brain gets hold of some worry, like, Oh, am I gonna lose my job or, oh, my mom's in a nursing home and she's gonna be abandoned or, you know, God knows what terrible scenarios we can come up with. And we just brain just like hangs on to them and chews on them runs on the hamster wheel thinking the same thing over and over, which is really miserable and not really very productive. Right? It doesn't. If all you do is worry the same thing. You're not actually you're not doing anything to improve the situation. You're just sort of marinating in that terrible state.

Stuart Carlton 10:59
Yeah. Boy that one hits home like lately, since this whole thing started. I've slept past 331 time, I think. And it's just that same thing. It's rare and I'm even I'm so unbelievably lucky. I have a steady job, at least for now. You know, and I, we live in an inexpensive place to live. We're all healthy, at least for now. But, but it's like, just you wake up and it's the same thoughts over and over and over in your brain and compounds itself. Frankly, it's horrible. Yeah, the hamster wheel of rumination is is my pain.

Ming Kuo 11:32
Right and then I'm on the emotional side. We may be feeling just sort of a general consistent tension as we're walking around, or we may feel really sad, or we may be you may be becoming crabby mccr. Emerson, now where the slightest thing kind of sets off, sets us off or we we snap when people do things that would normally you know, we would just like ride them out but but now Like we lose a certain amount of emotional resilience when we're under kind of chronic levels of threaten uncertainty. And that's another thing that nature has the potential to affect. And if I can go on on Yeah. Something that I've actually seen on my Facebook feed is stress eating. This is a known phenomenon. If you put, if you put biological organisms under chronic stress, they will, not only will they eat more, they will eat in a different pattern. They seek out high calorie foods and they, they stuffed them in. And not only that, but their fat cells work harder at storing that, that energy and the ideas. This is actually very smart of the body. Because the body knows Okay, if things are coming down the pipe that I'm going to need to have energy and resources to deal with. Now I better grab whatever I can available. And I better say, right, instead of working it off, I'm just kind of just kind of squirrel it away for a rainy day. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 13:09
that makes me think maybe maybe this is outside of your expertise. But what is kind of the role of evolution here? Right? I mean, I assume that these are adaptations, maybe some of these syndromes anywhere adaptations we have for dealing with with, you know, life on the savanna or whatever, that are now not helping us as much as that or are these like just adaptations that don't work anymore? Is there an evolutionary component?

Ming Kuo 13:33
Well, I think the stress eating is normally an adaptive thing. It's, it works more for acute stresses, right? Um, but if you just sort of live like this for weeks of weeks of your level of constant anxiety, then then you're just packing on the pounds and it's not really it's not really helpful. I think we've we've actually seen a lot of work on poverty and how How stress eating worse than poverty but, but right even though this is a good short term strategy for the body, in long term scenarios, it's actually counterproductive and actually is bad for us in the end. Another baver behavioral effect we may be seeing is kind of a lack of discipline or willpower. Where we notice for me, you know, the addiction gets that gets worse is surfing the web, I just gotta check. Maybe some useful information about COVID-19 has shown up and since the last 20 Minutes with Us check. So we may find our addictions a little bit more unmanageable. And just anything that requires willpower may be more difficult, or even become a sort of out of our out of our range of what we can do.

Renie Miles 15:00
You're making me feel better about myself in terms of things have gone lately. It's bigger than me.

Ming Kuo 15:09
Oh, definitely. Right. Yeah. So. So I mean, as a psychologist, I can, it's a terrible thing to say. But I'm, I'm kind of delighted to see all these things show up on my feet in Facebook, because this is kind of what our understanding is of what stress does to people. And so it's all kind of happening according to our understanding. And maybe one of the, let me let me related to that. Let me turn to two last effects. One is, we may be experiencing sleep disruptions. That's also stress related. And unfortunately, all of this stress and sleep disruptions are probably doing kind of a job on our immune functioning, including reducing our ability to address viral threats. Which is really kind of the opposite of what we'd like right now.

Stuart Carlton 16:04
It's an unfortunate downward spiral to be in.

Ming Kuo 16:08
Yeah. And so when we're in a, what we call, even a mild fight or flight, are they calling it flight, fight and freeze these days as well. When we're in that kind of state, the body shifts resources, and it doesn't. It doesn't make long term resource up long term investments in your immune system, it gears up for immediate threats. And so if we're like walking around as this little ball of stress all the time, then our natural killer cells which which are the ones that are that go out and find viral threats and take care of them, they're actually reduced a number and they're reduced in activity. So all of this stuff is no fun. To be in this virus crisis syndrome. Um, but the good news is we have we have a potential cure a lot of us, right outside our

Stuart Carlton 17:11
door. There we go. And so yeah, you're taking us right to the topic for the day. Well, well, segwayed maybe you should watch the show. But But so, so but what I'm hearing, let's move to that, but what I'm hearing just is like, there's all these different effects and these effects to you, as a site psychologist are predictable, right? I mean, you would have guessed that this is what's gonna happen and you're seeing it happen. But also based on your past research, you found that there are some I don't want to say the term solution, but some things that might help is that is that right? And that's, that's where going outdoors maybe comes in, let's talk about that.

Ming Kuo 17:43
Yeah, um, so I want to preface this by saying you don't actually have to literally go outdoors even even if you have if you have a kind of Green Street to look at from your window or I don't know, magnolia tree, I have a magnolia tree, my neighbors have a magnolia tree which is starting to bloom. And I can see that from my, my home office area. So all of that has an impact. bizarrely enough, even I think the shortest time amount of time people have shown is in the order of seconds, like just a 17. Second view of nature has measurable effects. And that was it that was even a simulated wasn't the real nature. It was a simulated ager. So the tiniest, even the tiniest doses make a difference. And it doesn't have to be, you know, Sherwood Forest or the Grand Canyon. Even any little bit of nature that makes you feel better, if you feel better, then that's probably enough that it's going to have many of these other effects.

Renie Miles 18:56
And so why do you think that nature has has such an effect, Dennis?

Ming Kuo 19:02
Oh, well, they're actually a whole variety of ways it does. I guess the one of the main ones is if you think about this fight flight freeze response, one of the best doc is sort this out, actually been tremendously well documented. And we kind of need to stop doing this because we just avoid showing the same thing over and over. But we while we totally absolutely, positively know is that nature is good for stress reduction and helps us not only go from fight flight freeze to our normal baseline levels of whatever stress slash relaxation but actually moves us past that normal state, into a kind of rosy, calm, happy, truly relaxed state. So and when you're in that truly relaxed state, that's when that's when the body starts to make decisions about you know, okay, it's like, okay, I feel like this I must be, I must be truly safe. And I can afford to make long term investments in immune system functioning and, and, and other things. So the immune system turns out to be kind of a big deal in health. And if we're in that deeply relaxed state, then that's when we make these particular investments, new, long term immune functioning, which obviously has a whole variety of benefits for our physical and

Stuart Carlton 20:33
mental health. And so when you're saying investments, or you're talking about like these sort of subconscious processes that your body does, whether or not you want it to is that is that what you mean by investments or?

Ming Kuo 20:43
Yes, right. It's so depending on our

Stuart Carlton 20:46
investments is a triggering topic right now. Just in general.

Ming Kuo 20:53
No, this is right. These are all decisions the body makes, whether you would like it to or not, whether it's actually adaptive for your situation or not. This sort of the programming that's built in, because generally speaking, if we were, if we were about to be attacked by a lion, then that was not the time to make long term investments of our resources, our body should take whatever energy it has, and it should put it into running or fight, right? Not not boosting our immune backup system.

Stuart Carlton 21:28
So even even the small time in nature, you're saying might be on a small time experiencing nature might be able to help this so so like eating lunch outside, maybe or eating lunch, if you have a porch, you know, even just that kind of exposure, which is, I mean, going to be very safe in the terms of viral spread, right, as you feel a backyard or a porch where there aren't other people. But you're saying that even that can make a positive difference in terms of people's well being in a way that in this sort of subconscious way. Is that is that right?

Ming Kuo 21:58
Right. Right. So Have you have some greenery, a walk at lunch, lunch on a porch a walk in a green, a tree line neighborhood makes makes a real difference. And then you know if you can get a little further out to something that's sort of mostly natural like so in on our campus, we have the Japan house area. There's a lot of walking past there. And if you are careful about maintaining, you know, the six foot distance, you can really get away from things I mean, mentally you can feel like you have gotten away from your concerns, you can stop the hamster wheel of rumination you can achieve, you know, just a lightness and a calmness of mood. That's, that's really quite striking. And you will probably most likely return afterwards to find that you're now able to function and focus in a way that maybe you weren't able to before them. Wow.

Stuart Carlton 23:01
Yeah, that's really great. And for those of you who haven't listened to our last couple of episodes, we've recently had an epidemiologist from the University of Illinois Chicago doctor on her show, and an ER doctor, who is also an epidemiologist Franco's adger, which talk about, you know, going outside and how to do so both safely and responsibly. And I think they both agree that you can go outside safely and responsibly, responsibly, excuse me. And it sounds like you're saying there's just a ton of benefits from that.

Ming Kuo 23:31
Right, right. Yeah. So every every, every description, every symptom of virus crisis syndrome that I that I mentioned, the hamster wheel of rumination, the mental fog, the emotional resilience, the irritability, stress, eating, lack of discipline, or willpower,

Stuart Carlton 23:50
if you like, you're just running down my list here. It's like

Ming Kuo 23:54
every single one of those is something we have experimentally shown to improve When we have some kind of contact with nature

Renie Miles 24:05
so, so having been steeped in this all this time How do you incorporate it into your life? Are you to think about it as you're as you're out and about in natural environments, or do you kind of just let yourself go or? Well,

Ming Kuo 24:21
one thing I did was, um, I combined My my, my shopping trip with or I did my shopping trip one week at the local farm, an ag store, and I bought eight baby chicks.

Stuart Carlton 24:41
Is that what we hear in the background there?

Ming Kuo 24:43
That is a tremendous you cannot all your troubles just fly out the window when you are looking at baby chicks. Tell them Hello.

Stuart Carlton 24:54
We got baby chicks and that's one way that you're trying to just incorporate more natural world into your your life are there other other That maybe you're doing that you could share.

Ming Kuo 25:02
Oh, yeah, definitely taking walks I make sure to look up. I mean, my, my desk doesn't face the window. But if you can turn your desk to face the window, that's a great idea. I just make it make a point of turn around and looking looking out the back door or the back window. Um, yeah, taking walks is a really good thing because the physical activity of walking is another great stress buster. So combining that with doing a walk in a relatively green area means you're kind of maximizing the possible dose of stress reduction. One One other thing I haven't managed to do this myself because I've been just trying to stay close to home but if you do have some place that near you that feels really a way that maybe gives you a sense of awe or or Even perspective, that's another great way to sort of get out of your own head where yours or mo what's going to happen to me this, I'm worried about this, when you're when you're in that sort of self focused, worrying about the same things over and over again, getting out to where it's not human dominated nature. It's really nature nature, then that that can be really powerful in terms of helping that helping you stop. Because it's like, oh, look at this place that it doesn't, it's fine. It doesn't care whether I live or die or this happens or that the other thing is, there's something nice about being in a larger context like that, that reminds you You know what, there is a larger world out there, and there are good things that are happening and maybe just sitting in this stewing in these worries is not particularly necessary or helpful.

Renie Miles 27:00
Sometimes I just to say that sometimes the stars are that for me.

Stuart Carlton 27:06
Yeah, that's a great point. It just occurred to me that that's something totally missing from my life right now. So since of all, that's something that's been taken, you know, or that's much harder to get, and you're right, I'm going to think through how, how to how to get that again, because it's been a while at this point. And I think it's, well,

Ming Kuo 27:24
one thing I mean, I think Brittany's idea of the stars seems like a great, a great example and close to home. But another thing you can do is it's possible obviously, you know, the classic stimuli that cars are, you know, the magnificent scenery, the Grand Canyon or or being in the redwoods, but you can experience or if you just sort of take the time to look at something that's small and beautiful and at hand, if you if you allow yourself to get into it enough and really notice How beautifully this thing is put together and how, how delicate the petals of this flower are, you know, where you can actually generate off just by spending a little more time with something that you might ordinarily just kind of glance a glance over and, and not register. Yeah,

Stuart Carlton 28:17
I hear you. What's the challenge? It's such a darn challenge right now, though, because all those things you're talking about, they pull you out of the moment, right? And so you're saying it's almost we could get really well, real quick here. But like, you know, it's like, what you're saying is immerse yourself in the moment of this, this sort of beauty on the micro scale. But as soon as you start to do that, right now, your brain is gonna want to pull you out because of the VCs. Right? Yeah. What a frustrating situation.

Ming Kuo 28:44
I don't know. I think the more chances you give your yourself to do that, the better it gets at it. Meditation I understand that I'm not I'm not being brought on here to talk about meditation. But empirically, meditation has a lot of the effects and so If you were to say combine a certain amount of meditation and nature walks, all of it will kind of interact. So the, the meditation will help you be able to, to get off the hamster wheel when you're in nature. And that having done that it'll time in nature will help you stay on a kind of stable and good state when you got get indoors.

Stuart Carlton 29:27
I know you're not that kind of doctor, that sounds like a good prescription to me.

Renie Miles 29:32
Yeah, I was just gonna say thank you. Thank you.

Stuart Carlton 29:34
Oh, it really does. And that's wonderful. Your perspective, you know, based on all of the research that you've done is fascinating. And I think I think really healthy. But the real reason we have you on is for these next two questions. Yeah. And so that is if you could have a great doughnut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, but only one which would you pick?

Ming Kuo 29:55
Oh my god. It's the sandwich

Stuart Carlton 29:59
sandwich. Change the question up, but but the real reason I want to know is you live in Urbana, right or champagne? Yeah. Can I go in Urbana Champaign to get a great sandwich?

Ming Kuo 30:10
Oh gosh, I don't know lots of places. Um, I guess the one I do is common ground cook, because it's your

Stuart Carlton 30:18
common ground caught on and on. And then the last question we'd like to wrap up with is, and I feel like Actually, this whole podcast has been life advice to tell you the truth. But if you had one piece of life advice for our listeners, it could be big, it could be small. It could be serious, it can be silly. You know, but if you had one piece of life advice to share based on your experience, what would that be?

Ming Kuo 30:40
I can't give you too.

Stuart Carlton 30:42
Yeah, I can never settle on the first offer. Right?

Ming Kuo 30:48
I was gonna say washer and the other one is the psychology behind the effects of nature tell us that when we when we are kind to to ourselves, when we put ourselves into situations where we feel truly calm and relaxed and and sort of serene and happy, that state of mind is profoundly important for our not only mental health, but our physical health. And so whatever it is for you, maybe it's knitting or walking or meditation, or maybe it's quiet time with friends and family, whatever puts you in that state is probably something you should make a point of doing. Not just because it's nice, but because you know that it's functional, it's crucial to our functioning and our survival as human beings to spend a certain amount of time in that. Life is good or life is okay kind of state.

Stuart Carlton 31:46
Great. Well, is there a place where people can go to learn more about your work? Is there a website or social media feed or something like that?

Ming Kuo 31:54
Oh, thank you. Can you type in KU Oh, which is my Last name and nature and health that's that works pretty well. Or talk somewhere on the web.

Stuart Carlton 32:09
We'll put a link to the TED, TED talk in our show notes at teach me about the Great Lakes calm. Or if you're doing this on a phone or whatever, it'll be in the show notes right there and your podcast player, so you can hit it there and go listen to some more of what he had to say.

Ming Kuo 32:24
There's also there's a hidden brain

Stuart Carlton 32:26
interview, a hidden brain interview. Well, if it's hidden, we'll definitely have to link it in the show notes. They're starting to punch kids. All right, Dr. Greene quo of the human, arbitrary landscape in human health lab at the University of Illinois, thank you so much for coming on and teaching us about the Great Lakes.

Ming Kuo 32:48
Thank you so much.

Stuart Carlton 33:00
There's a lot to think about there. And so I really appreciate mean coming on just a whole lot. And it shows the insidious nature I think of this whole situation, right?

Renie Miles 33:09
Yes. All the ways that we're overwhelmed, right?

Stuart Carlton 33:12
Yeah. And it's just like it's like one of it's the eat your own tail in terms of the physical and the mental affecting each other. In the subconscious, like, we are not our own friends right now cooped up, I think is really what it is.

Renie Miles 33:25
Right. And for me, it was Check, check, check check when she listed all the Yeah, I was gonna learn all the ways.

Stuart Carlton 33:32
Yes, the first one's like, Oh, that's interesting. second one's kind of funny. And then by like the 12th one.

Renie Miles 33:39
I have a problem.

Stuart Carlton 33:39
Yeah. I've got issues. Well, anyway, really, what is something you learned about the Great Lakes today?

Renie Miles 33:48
So I learned that having some contact with nature that's beneficial, can happen in just a matter of seconds. That we can if we can relax As we glance at something and kind of get lost in it for just a moment, it, it makes a difference. Yeah.

Stuart Carlton 34:09
And I learned that my life and it hadn't occurred to me, but it makes so much sense. It's really stuck with me for the last several minutes. It's just missing beauty and awe. And those are things that I think are so important that reminder that we're connected to something larger, right and, and nature is a good place to find that. But boys have been missing so that I think are going to take that and ruminate on that over the weekend and see what we can do. Well, really, I encourage people to follow us on social media since hopes not here I'm going to totally get this right. You should go to the Twitter and do I Li and secret is where you can find us on Twitter. You can also do the buoys on twitter at to yellow buoys that spelled out Tw o yellow buoys they're a fun follow and you should also go check us out at www dot teach the Great Lakes calm to listen to old epic So let's find out more about you know the benefits of nature or how to go out in nature in a way that's healthy and safe. And you should do the likes and the subscribes and the reviews and all stuff like that. And with that, we'll talk to you next month if not next week. Thank you for listening and keep grading those lakes PD day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai