Public Programme, Second Talk. Melbourne (Australia), 6 April 1981.

Dr Warren talks about many things which are beyond me to understand. I can't help laughing why people get stuck up on them, I really don't know, because it is so obvious that God cannot be bought, you cannot pay for God, it is absolutely obvious for any intelligent man, it should be obvious. How much did you pay to become a human being from a monkey, what did we do, did we cut our tails or anything to become the monkey? We have become by the grace of God. What can we pay for the grace of God? It is very simple, you cannot, God doesn't understand money. It is human beings who have created money and all the things like economic woes and all the economic problems. God doesn't understand these economics you have made. He doesn't understand! This is all your own doing. Your own projection and complication and you are entangled into it. It is as simple as that. And when you see these people who live on other people's money, I call it OPM, are parasites. You won't live on other people's money, you, any one of you. So they do not have even a simple self respect. Not only that, but these parasites are cunning. It is so obvious, so very obvious, that we like to be fooled. The more cunning the befoolers, the better we are. I went to Calcutta once for a program and I had many programs, but one of them was in a very posh place as they call it, in a hotel they had the program. I said this hotel is an irrelevancy. These people will not be interested in Sahaja Yoga. They are too rich. All over the world very rich people will never understand, they want somebody who will take money from them, and they can show off their money. And we had a program and there were two halls. I told them take a very small one because I know them too well, and the bigger hall was occupied by another fellow who had some sort of a show on, stuff, and they were amazed that, except for two people, most of them who came inside went to his program and after eight days he was arrested in Poona for robbing people. But all of them went to his program and not to mine. When it was written articles about him and all those things and he looked so dishonest from his own photographs of, if you could see him, he was so dishonest to look at and people could not see that it was so simple to see that. See, so that shows you have lost every sensitivity to know what is plastic and what is real. It makes me laugh sometimes, when the other day in the aeroplane they were discussing these things and they were telling me most seriously how much he was tortured by another group and they took three thousand pounds just to get some horrible mantra which has no meaning and they worked very hard for days together and she broke his back and they broke every part of his bone in his backbone area, all sorts of things that he did and he became so nervous, a recluse, they even became frightened of a garlic, if they see a garlic, I mean after getting realisation you have to become a person who is absolutely powerful and in control of yourself but not aggressive and not to be such, become cowardly recluses and he told me all these things and I did not know what to do because it was such a description. They don't know whether to laugh or to cry really because this thing behind it is all hocus pocus absolutely hocus pocus, I mean this is absolutely absurd to say that you fly, see the light and all this nonsense, and on top of that there is the suffering of a person, a person who is a genuine seeker, a seeker, who is seeker. He is a man of god and he being tortured like this makes him so unhappy. I just don't know what to say about the whole thing, things that are happening. You have to wake up to your/self-esteem and know that you are created human beings for a special thing, and not to be vamoosed and cheated by these horrible fake people. One has to understand this and the innate nature of God to understand what will happen to you as realised souls, if you become abnormal and freaky then it is not that you have got your realisation, on the contrary a person who is realised becomes extrmely normal, is the most normal person.

Apart from these things there are some diseases built within us which make us extremely stupid. Really built in I should say, because we have come from matter, we are gross, our origin has been gross, we came from matter and we grew up to see that there is something beyond the matter that is the spirit and we are the spirit, but we get dominated by this matter, we really get dominated by matter, all through in our ventures, for example, if you are sitting in a chair, and you can't make a chair out of some matter, you cannot sit on the ground, you have formed the habit, the habit of matter, matter starts growing on you, you become such a slave, such a slave of matter that you cannot get over it, any matter that you start using, for example if you start using a bath, then you can't do without a bath, you use electricity which is a material form, if it fails everything goes out, you cannot do without it. So matter is all the time trying to overpower the spirit, but the beauty is, through your evolution, you evolve to a stage where you are human being and you start seeing that matter cannot dominate your spirit. This should be the self estimation, there should be the understanding that you are the spirit and not the matter. When you see this simple point then you understand that you cannot purchase God. Then also another point, that one understands that it is not the way, that materially you see, somebody say somebody you should but spiritually, if he does say something spiritual then you should accept for example seeing the light, if they say you see the light, to see the light I have to be away from the light, do you see the point? You have to be the light. So it is a very simple thing, if you understand it is commonsense, that if you have to be the light, then you have to be inside the light, part and parcel of the light. But to see the light you have to go further. Actually from this distance I can't see the light, if I really have to see the light I have to go much further to see this light. All these things that they are copying and telling you is such a camouflage and they have been very good at befooling you. It is impossible to convince people who want to be befooled. It is impossible. It is easy to befool them because they are anxious to be befooled. Alright, but those who want to really be alive, then they should get it, then their attitude is very different. Then they should like to go and see what these disciples have got, these people who have paid so much money, that they been with people for fifteen and twenty years, go and see them, what have they got? If they say, "alright, I am feeling very much better, and happy", you look at the face and know they are not. Supposing they say "I feel relaxed", so what? What is so great about feeling relaxed, so called relaxation, you can feel relaxed even in some company you might feel relaxed, so what? What is so great, is that something God's work? Just to relax you? Some people say "I feel better", this might be ego pampering. But what powers did you get yourself? If you become the spirit then you have to have powers of the spirit flowing through you, isn't it? It should be common thing, logical conclusion. 'What is the power, what have I got from that? They have taken all my purse, my money. thousands of pounds have gone to him, what did I get from him? "We should have an understanding, but this nobody asks because there is a big mafia in all these organisations, you are not supposed to ask questions, you are not supposed to talk. You are put in different compartments, there is a big secret going on, I you tell the vidya they just laugh, nobody knows the meaning of the words, are so stupid. Some of the words of the mantras mean this finger, some of the words mean scorpion, some of them mean the serpent, all kinds of things, and some of them means the silence.

In a ridiculous way these people have befooled you. I think it is a spite they have, or is it a spite of the satanic for the divine people who have come on this earth to seek God? It is that attack of these negative people who are trying to divide you completely, ruin your nature on this earth, you have to be aware of that. You are very vulnerable because you are saints, you are born vulnerable because you have no self esteem, you treat yourselves so cheaply. You do not judge what lions' den you are entering into and you can be so badly hurt, with all your sensitivity, with all that, you do not give a second to think that even if there are thousands of them going before I am going there I must find out what kind of a nonsense is going on. If you go there as an ordinary visitor, you will immediately find out that this is a fake and a false one, you have been warned in the bible there will be fakes and false people coming on this earth.

Now there are another type of people also, having covered the chakras later, we will learn how to avoid, who are bound by futuristic idea, as he said about Krishna, of giving very subtle forms of this. But we must see what it is doing, like Church of England, can you imagine, Church of English owns the whole of Soho. And the question was raised, "how can you own Soho, where all the prostitutes are earning their living?" And the answer came in that Christ looked after Mary Magdalene, who was a prostitute, you can see, and the people accepted this answer. Then the whole thing with the ritual starts, "come along here and sit down, and bring the child and we will baptise it." It's a joke, it's a very big joke. Baptism is a living process, it's a living happening. Did Christ baptise anyone himself? Did He put His hand on anybody's head and say "you are baptised by me"?

Ask the question, did He really? Then how are these people doing it? They are taking Christ in their hand as if they found him somewhere in the storm somewhere. What right have they got to say they are baptising?

It is a living force of God which resides within you and says, "I will appear before you like tongues of flames." Let them explain this quality. Let them say, "He is our Father who art in Heaven", what does that mean to you? For that you have to read Bible. What was Christ? Who is Me? (...?) Why he came on this earth? Really, what was His purpose? There is nothing there. Just some few people who were not realised saw him and noted down, finished. How can that become such an authority for anyone who was an observer, that you are writing. It's very deep, it is because it is so narrow that it is extremely deep. You have to be right in it to see. For example, you are standing on a well which is very narrow, but just hardly you can see anything inside, you can just see something in the middle. To see the complete vision of that well you have to go in and see the narrower side, and that we are not able to do because Bible is the last word. Now I could say that any other persons would come and say, "now what is the authority of Bible, now what authority is there, if you say Christ is the authority of Bible." Take it like that, Christ never wrote Bible, He never wrote a word, so you are correct. Could be some journalist who wrote about Him, could be anything absurd. If they do say Gita, ask them "who wrote Gita?" Krishna never wrote Gita, never, did he write it? So what is the authority of it. Gita has no authority as such, how can you say it was written by Krishna? He had nothing to do with it. Anybody, supposing you' see me today and you write about me, you can write anything, anything you feel, like a journalist came just to sort of find fault with me. She was paid by some fake guru and she wrote that I chewed betel nut, which I have never eaten all my life I wish that I could because I think there are some people, but I never eat and she said she saw me eat betel nut and she never has.

If she had written bible about me it would have been very funny than that is not the authority either. Moreover they did not have tape recorders to tape anybody's lectures or anything, even the photgrapher was not there, that is today all these things are there, so what is the authority? This is the problem with us that we accept certain things as an authority because we think we can control people by this misappropriation of authority to ourselves.

There have been people who have said "I am the Christ". I said "alright" I said, "alright,walk on the water"(....) no chance because Christ could walk on the water because he was Omkara Himself. Omkara he can walk because he has no body as such he can walk on the water,(...) alright, "walk on the water" ,first step he can take on the water, the second he will go down. All such hocus pocus will be found out. if -somebody says "if you give me money I will make you fly", let him go off this leaning tower of Pisa what it is meant for, after all it must be used sometimes, and throw him down, see how far he goes with flight. Have a nice show for it. That how you can find out these people whether they have it or not. So this is how I find in this country, also is in a very bad state from these people who are here to spoil your chances of realisation. And it is very difficult to give realisation to people who have been to these people, have been initiated, have been really spoiled in their Kundalini. I have worked day in and day out to neutralise it, I have been working. For the interest in your Self can only come when you have such a thing that is very important and that is theyou about Visshudhi.

The Visshudhi is the centre placed at the back of the backbone here which has given to human beings a speciality which separates him from animals, that he raises his head up. By raising his head upward he has been able to create a new dimension for himself. And this new dimension is a dimension by which he creates ego within himself. Before becoming a human being your brain was flat and all coverd with the super ego. Animal like dogs, or you can say horses, they have the super ego. I hope you can see all of you before becoming a human being, and when you become human beings a locking system took place by which you started developing, or you can say a twisting system took place by which you started developing our action. For example an animal does not know how to make a chair out of wood, an action physically, at the most it might carry this chair you have made, put it there and let you sit on that. It can take the chair a man has made and sit on that, but he cannot make anything for himself. Maybe he can weave for himself a small little nest or something like that at the most. So you with your action can overpower the matter. You have been able to achieve great heights in overpowering all the five elements and by using them as power, for example, electricity, magnetism, sound, (everything?), ether. But animals when they come in contact with human beings they also can become conditioned as far as their understanding of relationship with human beings is concerned, but it is not that they could be made to act on to some matter, and this action, physical action has given a by-product which is called as ego.

This is the beginning. Then the second action is the thinking. The animals don't think of the future, he doesn't have any insurances. Animals are not bothered about--insurance, of what will happen to my great grandchildren when I die, what part of my house will be going to which children, he is not bothered about all these things and he does not-even have such a sense of possession as human beings has, so it happens that we start developing our ego when we start planning for the future, thinking of the future, going into the future and also when we use our physical being to create something or any physical work or aggress something.

If any animal goes and attacks a cow or something, say a tiger, and brings it home for his family, he is not a cow, he is not egoistically like human beings are. Like human beings, if they earn about five hundred dollars they become very egoistical, they think they have earned such a lot of money and they have done so much that they have earned the right to dominate the wife and vice versa. But an animal doesn't think he has the right to dominate, for whatever he does is in the nature of his own personality, he doesn't do it as the idea that he has to do this and he is very important and he doesn't have this ego, so he does not even think that this is karmas and he has to pay for it and he has done something wrong and go to a Brahman and pay a lot of money "because I have done such a thing", these ideas do not come into the head of an animal because he is not into that dimension. A new dimension of karma which human beings are because of this situation, because of ego, if you feel you have done that the Mother will come, if you had no ego you would never have felt that. These two things are at this point and you should see very clearly (...) It should start from there and pull down from there, actually it should start from these two points, animals start developing

But you cannot put your attention inside, that's imposible. I cannot tell you just to put your attention inside, some happening has to take place within you. Supposing something is (....) false then your attention goes there isn't it? In the same way when your Kundlini awakening takes place, then your attention goes through that which is awakened there and you just start seeing the way, or, you can say, feeling the way, but it is such a quick thing, a split of a second, that sometimes you miss everything except that you see the cool breeze and start feeling it.

Sometimes you do start feeling it, and it's here, and here, and so many people feel that it has come up now, and its throbbing, now its alright, it has started. It depends on what sort of runway you have, if the runway is horrid, then you go on feeling all the bumps. Sometimes the runways are so badly spoiled that it takes months for the Kundalini to rise, but now I think in Sahaja Yoga we have developed such methods and techniques, such permuations and combinations, that now it is much easier to raise the Kundalini than it was, say, ten years back.

Then I had twenty disciples with whom I worked for two years to give them realisation. In London I had six disciples for four years working to give them realisation. There are now nearly a thousand in UK and in Sydney we have lots of them also. And in India also we have thousands.

And they just get it in a second, but it is a different thing now because it has evolved so well. But this happening is a living happening, this you can't jump, take off your clothes, stand on your head, wear some badges, wear some clothes, but you can't make the Kundalini rise unless you see the pulsation at the triangular bone, you can see the pulsation of the Kundalini, until you feel the pulsation of the Kundalini and see the pulsation, you can see the rising of the kundalini. You can see. You can also feel the cool breeze rising, you can also feel with a stethoscope the sound, lap lap lap lap coming up to here which Kabir has

very clearly said (....) coming up to the apex of yourhead.

Anahat is the thump of your heart, and that is how we feel the Kundalini and then it breaks through and then you feel it on your fingers, actually feel it, it is an actualisation of the experience. This is what the baptism is. When Warren has said that we have never had our real baptism, do not be angry with him. Because it is a fact, you have not got your realisation. Christ has said you have to be born again, you understand He has said it, so now they are saying we are born again, another form of self certification. First it was a baptism, now there is another thing started, we are born again. Now when they come and us, these people they change from one to another. How is it that Christ, that how is it that through Christ, who has said so, and you will see that only through Sahaja Yoga, ultimately you will pass through the gate of Christ only, to get to the Kingdom of God. It is a fact, what He said, and He never told lies. He told the complete truth, and nothing but the truth. But the way you interpret it, the way you understand it, is so narrowish, that you do not want to accept it.

This is the gate where our start, and this is the greatest thing we have done. Now this Visshudi chakra is the centre of Shri Krishna. If I say this is the centre of Shri Krishna you may start doubting me. You may doubt mealso, it is not proper, with Indians because they know of this centre, they know where Shri Krishna resides. They know there are sixteen petals for this and they know he is called as the complete incarnation of the sixteen petals, all this they know, I do not have to bother with it. And the centre here of Christ is actually bit confusing because it is called as Mahavishnu. Not as Christ, but as Mahavishnu, and he is called as Bodha not as Buddha, but Bodha, it is a difference of language.

In one of my lectures on Christ, you will find out what is his origin, why He was called Jesus, why He was called Christ and what is the origin of these things, why He arrived, who was His mother and everything you will find out from that lecture. It is better that you go through that lecture and see for yourself. We have lots of these tapes already in Sydney and we can send it over to you and you can look at it from that angle because in this small little time I cannot elaborate talk about Krishna, and about Christ, but the only thing I have to tell you is there is a very great relationship between both of them, and Christ is the word that comes from the word, Chrinsa, and Chis in India is means for agriculture and Chrisna and Chrisi also is the word for-agriculture and agriculture means the one where you sow, and they are the sowers of the seed. They are sowing the seed in the fields. So the sowing of the seed is done by Shri Krishna, and the Gita he is described is also another very interesting thing about Shri Krishna which they have very much confused. Krishna never wrote Gita, first of all, and it was never written by an absolute Brahmin or anything who was a born brahmin, it was written by the illegitimate child of a fisherman. How can he write, a man like that, that you are born as a Brahmin you have to be born as a Brahmin what he was meaning, then you have the aptitude for. it, that means you are a seeker of God, all the seekers of God are Brahmins and all the seekers of power are Shachtihis, and seekers of money are payshics, which means the attitude, but Hindus as usual have made like all others, have made a mess out of these, made a Mess out of all their philosophers. According to them if you are born a Brahmin, even if you are born the greatest crook in the world, you are a Brahmin. And even if you are a person who is a very highly evolved person, then if you are not born in a Brahmin family, then you are good for nothing. This caste system is such a horrible thing in India, it has no explanation at all in the scriptures because it is written that in everyone resides the spirit, the spirit is in everyone of you, how many have mastered it? You can have those aptitudes, but as usual, people have escapes for everything, on this point that everybody has the spirit within them. Gita has described it, that everyone has the spirit, but one has to know when he says that the spirit within them that every human being has the spirit within them, not the devils. Because Krishna himself has killed so many devils in his lifetime, because one of the powers is sobhandana, means to kill so many devil on this principle that there is spirit in everyone, why did he kill so many devils? The devils do not have spirit. There are devils, and devils and devils, for example say, Hitler if he comes to ask for a realisation, do you think he can get it and should get it? His greatest reward would be for all his lives to come.

Question from audience: how can you be sure he wasn't Shri Krishna casting out devils?

Shri Mataji: For that you must get your realisation. That's all, you see, when you reach Nirvikalpa then you become the absolute. For example I'll tell you, when you get your realisation, you get your vibrations, alright? And with these vibrations you can find out what is true and what is not true. For example we had some Brahmins at one of the programs I had first arranged, and I didn't know they had a big fight with the organisers and they said, "She is not a Brahmin, so how can she hold a program here", or something like that. And they were sitting in the front of the hall and I said, "who is Brahmin among you, who thinks he is a Brahmin, just come forward", so five or six of them came and sat, so I said to them, "put your hand like that" and they started shaking their hands, and they got frightened. I said, "why are you shaking", and they said, "because we are Brahmins, and You are the power." And I said, see to your neighbours, "are they also shaking?" And they said they be also shaking, they be also Brahmins. I said, "see now who are they", and they said they were some people who had come from an lunatic asylum. He said only two people there are shaking, I said "will you believe what you have seen, that when you thought you were Brahmins, you are mad too to believe such a thing". Now to believe that Hitler was also good, is a typical sign of escaping, to like horrible things, you see, just to have an idea that everything is fine, is the best place for jumping into the devils' hand. And that is what is happening to people, they never doubted anyone.

And I don't know where you people get these ideas about everybody's life, even Christ, he too a (...) in his hand and He was whipping them all. He was love and compassion, no doubt, but He did whip them, and He also said "don't throw pearls before the swines", was true, His compassion had a special purpose which I will tell you just now, why He got himself crucified, which is a very important thing, but when we just say that everything is fine, everything is good, the reason is we do not want to face the reality. Because, maybe we cannot understand that there could be anything bad, but after realisation, you will discover that yourself there are problems, is something wrong, even in the best there are problems you have not seen and faced. Perhaps there are problems in you which you have not wanted to see in others but after realisation you get out of yourself. Like this sari I am wearing, if I am not identified with it, I see a spot I would like to clean, I will have to deal with, I see and I deal with it, I am not saying it is a good thing to have a spot, but supposing I am identified, I say, "oh, there's nothing wrong, absolutely normal". There are among these gurus, not one, but so many these days, that you have not at all any idea, if you had you would not have allowed.

Now whatever happens to us in our consciousness, is only limited to our human awareness, and whatever we see in our human awareness, like at the time Shri Krishna came, we got our human awareness, in that we got only two points, one is our super ego, which is our conditioning, and another is our ego, which we have achieved at a rate that we have done this, I am that, I am this, I like that, you like this. So we are only two things, either super ego, or ego. We wobble it. The third thing which should be in us, is our spirit in the heart. And for that the point is the central point by which we balance, between these two, the desire and the action. We've got a balancing in the centre, by understanding what is the best.

For example a person drinks a lot, he kills himself by drinking. He suddenly tells himself he knows it is bad, that his father killed himself by drinking, so he takes a life which is very much more in moderation. You start learning by so many experiences, right and wrong, how to keep in the centre, that's what you can learn with human awarenes, if you can only learn how to keep in the centre. Now, you have to go beyond human awareness to be the awareness of the spirit, and when you become the awareness of the spirit, should become that you should ask for, when you become that the whole picture will be before you. Because you can feel it yourself, and understand what is right and what is wrong. On your vibratory awareness, which is a new dimension. Even children. Take ten children who are realised souls. If you ask them what is the matter with another person, then immediately they will raise the same finger and say this is the matter. If you ask the person "have you got a cold or bronchitis or something", and he will say, "yes". If this hand shows the whole left side, then it means he suffering from emotional trouble. You do not know anything about your chakras at all before realisation. One must accept what it is, that is nothing wrong, it is only your ego which stops now listen. Then once you get your realisation you start feeling your different centres, you start feeling it inside you and you start feeling the centres of others. Anyone who wants to know if Hitler was or not only has to ask the question and you can feel it, and can't even bear it, horrible vibrations you get from him.

Once some Sahaja Yogis were asking about some devilish people and got actual blisters, specially with this Hitler, actual blisters, they got, actual blisters. After realisation you get real actual self consciousness because you become the spirit within the heart. The spirit resides in the heart but this is the base of its' seat. There are seven seats in the head, and the seat of the spirit is here. when the Kundalini goes, it is just a small thread of Kundalini rises because there are lots of problems and a very small thread through the Brahma nadi in the very centre -most channel, rise and opens and when it opens the grace comes to you, and when the grace comes down you get completely relaxed, and it falls in either side of the ida and pingala nadi, the sympathetic nervous system manifesting our left and right sympathetic nervous system. By this you first feel relaxed, thoughtless, and when it is little bit established you start feeling the cool breeze, because your spirit has started manifesting, and you just feel a cool breeze, like a wind coming. First you may feel a bit tingling, giddy, heat, all that going round, sometimes people a little bit shake, also because the nerves are not properly built up, if they do not have the strength to bear it, then it sometimes happens that you shake, doesn't matter. It takes some time to work in some people, in some people it doesn't take time at all. It is the quality of the central path of your Sushumna that is important. if it is very simple, there is no problems, then the Kundalini takes no time She is anxiously waiting, She is your mother, She is the desire, the pure desire within you to become one with the spirit. Unless and until you achieve it, whatever you may try, you can do anything you like, you spoil your Sushumna, but you have to get it because otherwise your seeking will not cure, but you have to reach the place where you can say "I have found it." If you have not found the spirit, you will never be happy with anything sort of thing you do. Anything you do., Be kind to yourself. Be gracious to yourself and get your realisation. This is the simple thing as a Mother I would like to tell you.There is nothing to be done except by getting your realisation. But if you are an adamant person, and if you are employed by some of the false gurus, like some of the poor people who come here who have been to false gurus, you cannot get realisation. I am sorry if you cannot get it, I cannot help you. But if you are coming here by yourself and you want to have it, if you do not have the desire for it you will not get it, at any cost.You are not being forced to do it, your freedom is completely respected. If your freedom is not respected, how are you going to enjoy it, the freedom of your spirit? So it is completely in your hands, be free and accept, whether you get realisation or not. Now this chakra of Visshudi is very important because there are sixteen sub plexes which are looked after, for example ear, nose, throat, all these things are looked after by this centre of Shri Krishna, and this centre has got two sides, one is the left, and one is the right, I have to talk about it because people in the West somehow suffer from the left visshudi, one of the main reasons is the heavy smoking, right is affected by the smoking, but later on it goes to the left also. But more important, you people have developed a theory, I don't know how, that you have to be guilty for everything. Maybe it is from your childhood, your mother said don't do this, don't do that, don't spoil the carpet, maybe your confessions in the churches, I don't know what to blame but it is a very good indulgence for people to sit down and think "oh I shouldent have done this I should not have done that", criticising yourself. This is also a very good escape of egoistical people. They are egoistical, they dominate others, then they sit down and weep on their left visshudi. This left visshudi is such a dangerous place, that it creates problems of the worst nature in human beings. For example, if you have any cancerous growth in you and if you have left visshudi, it is going to be difficult to cure. Because the escape of the Kundalini has to be through the visshudi chakra, and the escape of all these tensions of the cancer. And if you have this kind of a bad habit of sitting down and indulging into this kind of a nonsensical thing, like sitting down like Lord Byron and reading some tragedy and making some tragedy out of it, it is a drama! What is there to be tragic about? What is wrong with you? You are very rich people, you have everything, don't you very say count your blessings one by one? How many blessings have you got? You are specially blessed in this Australia, I think you are specially blessed. But you want to show that you are extremely miserable. The worst at this are the French I should say. "Mother you shouldFor when I went to France, they said, not say you are a happy person because they will think you are not sensitive", I said, "Really?", for the French are very sensitive people, to what? Not to holiness, not to purity, they are sensitive to God knows what. Ten feet you walk along the road and find a prostitute standing on the road, walk another ten feet find alcoholics lying in the street, are these sensitive people? Sensitive to their spirit? What are they sensitive to? Is this a very good thing that in the night you drink a lot, sleep with ten women and in the morning they feel guilty. Who asked them to go into this kind of a life and then sit down and cry and say "I feel so guilty, I have done so wrong and so forth." That is why I have to talk about this centre, is very important also because the centre of the sister of Shri Khrishna, which is so very important, of Shri Vishnumaya. The relationship between brother and sister is absolutely God given, in all relationships. For us Indians we do not have this problem, really we don't. I tried to explain it. The other day we had a very interesting talk, because two Indians have come with me, very great Sahaja Yogis they are, they said "Mother, why did you say that girl cannot hold the hand of a girl?" I said, "you won't understand."They said, "no, no, we would like to, does that mean to say we should close our girls' schools in India? I mean for a girl to hold the hand of a girl, it is much better." I said "this is rather difficult for you to understand." They said, "if a girl holds the hand of a man is that a holier relationship?" Is absurd. They think will it be holy to hold the hand of a man, it won't. They value the holy relationships. To this holy relationship is gone, it is the sole power of the brain. Like, if you go and see the zoo. If there is a wombat, it behaves like a wombat, if there is a monkey, it behaves like a monkey, if there is a tiger, it behaves like a tiger, but a human being if you put him in the zoo, you will see, he will eat up all the foods, he will cut down all the trees, he will go to all the depths of it, he will break his nose, he will lose his ears, he will spoil it all, he cannot sit quiet. You give him a tree, he will eat the fruits, he will have the bark inside himself, he will have the roots inside himself, he is so irresponsible, it is so horrid the way this brain is moving, all the time with this relationship, that relationship of all the types, he cannot sit quiet. You see when he is sitting for five minutes he thinks it is a jail, it is so boring, he must always be doing something important. And what is the important thing he does? Is to really ruin himself. He must go to a pub, he must go to a friend, he must go somewhere he will really ruin himself for his sense of holiness and all his sense of sanity. That's why we have no sense of sisterliness, the relationship of a sister. This is so much missing that to talk about it in England was impossible, because they said this is a Victorian or a Georgian or everything moves according to whatever moves that horrible England to the kings that worked so hard to ruin it.The kings themselves were such horrible things, I don't know how they managed to stay. So you are branded a Georgian or a this or a that, whatever you say, they cannot see the integration of anything, after one second they say, this is absolutely Victorian, so I say alright, doesn't matter, what is good, I would like to know. They said to be Victorian everything has to be condemned, there has to be something good about it also? This is how the whole outlook of the people always trying to brand you, what about yourself? What brand are you to give to yourself? That's the point nobody wants to see. What brand am I? What is my brand? 1 am no brand. That's what you are. Sometimes I feel so many people the way they think they have no sense, like in the night like nocturnal animals they do that and that, and that is how they have broken themselves like mad, for what? For what? Be in the centre. You must just wait for something to happen, you are. For what? You just have to wait, it is going to happen, this is your own, you are the people who are searching the soul, for which it is all created, the whole seed is there, you just have to get it, for why are you breaking everything that God has given you, it is such a beautiful being he has created, you are the most beautiful one, have you not seen when you go to the zoo all the animals are looking at you?It is a better bet they are looking forward, what have you got to give to them, I don't know. But once you have your realisation you will know the meaning of your being, you will know what you are. This is what one has to establish. We have really done lots of wrongs to ourselves by not understanding really, self realisation. one must know that you are the diamonds, that you are the saints, that you have the rights to the kingdom of God, you are specially made for this purpose, like being the people who are, you have climbed up there, instead of that you are lost into your egos and super egos and frankly what you are doing is destroying all your chances of your ascent which is so easily to be done. It is such a living process which is going to work out, it is not going to harm you in any way it is for you only, it is all there, it is Sahaja, it is within you, it is spontaneous, and it is going to work out, only thing you must know you must not treat yourself so shabbily and with such hatred towards yourself. It is no good to have such a low opinion towards yourself. This is the left side, the right side of course is the people who talk big, the people who say, like politicians, who talk down people, when they speak they just dominate and by their speech they control you. This centre, right side people have who are hot tempered, who lose their tempers and frighten people with their tempers and say such horrible things and people are so frightened just to keep them quiet they manage somehow. This type of people have the right vissudhi and if they have the colds it is a balance come to them, and if they talk too much they have the problem of trying to speak and some people lose their voices if they talk too much because the balance comes into them.Now the centre one is of Shri Khrishna. Shri Krishna is the one who creates the witness in us, he is the one who refuted all kinds of formal ritualistic things in religion. But he didn't become a hippie, that's one thing one should understand, he didn't go to another extreme. You see when he said that all these junks and formal things that are there, he didn't say that you take to drugs and other nonsensical forms of things, he said that if you have to get over this, you have to see it as a drama, the whole thing is a joke going on, it is a drama with life, but for that you have to become, it is not a question of achieving it with rational thinking, you have to go beyond your mind to achieve it, and that going beyond is done by your Kundalini. Now that he did not do it does not mean he was there, he was very much there, like a painting you have first the background, then you have another colour, then you have another colour, then you have a third colour, now the fourth colour, and now the time has come for the whole picture to be there. Everybody has played his part, a very important part in our evolution, everyone is needed, among you may be many who is having trouble with his vissudhi, especially Hari Rama Hari Krishna people, they suffer mostly from throat cancer. Because they go against Shri Krishna, by taking his name so vainly on Oxford street, they would stand with those things they get in the market, then they attach it here, and go on dancing. Making mockery out of Shri Krishna. Apart from that they take the name of Shri Khrishna unauthorised. Who has authorised them to take the name of Shri Krishna? They spoil this chakra completely because if you take the mantra this way you spoil the left visshudi really badly.All those who have been given mantras have spoiled their left visshudi, because these mantras are not like one mantra to somebody. I mean, are we only one chakra, or part of a chakra? And that too like Tinga they say, and all these things, where are they within us? They ran short of the names I would say, so they started getting hold of any names, or they were sinister giving such horrible names to you. This left visshudi you catch so badly. Most people who took these mantras when they speak their lower jaw will be like this, they have difficulty to talk. They cannot talk properly. This is one of the things you will find they have pain in the left hand side at the back, this is the beginning of it. Anything mantra that has been given to you has to have logic. It is a big sign, it is not something nonsensical, you come here, I give you a card, finish. It is a big science, you see how many deities are there. You must know where the problem is, it is like the Kundalini is rising here, a very big power, and now that here is an obstruction, and you want to get rid of that obstruction, then you say again the password, and you go on again, but if the Kundalini has not started, what is the use of saying a mantra? What is the use of having a mantra? If the Kundalini is staying down there, and you are saying a mantra about a chakra and it would be something like this, "that I am frozen in England" and saying a password for a bridge here. This is absurd. Because you are so naive about it, our Indian women think they are so very westernised and sophisticated, they also are equally naive, they don't want to know anything about the scriptures, they are not half witted or anything, they do not know anything about Lord Krishna, the mantra has to be connected with your development in your Kundalini. Not only that, but it should relate to the movement in your Kundalini. It should be given by a person who is a realised soul. Jagrut, awakened. The mantra has to be awakened. And that you will find in Sahaja Yoga is such a simple thing.For example, the Kundalini is stopping at this point, then what is the mantra for this point, Lord's prayer, or "I forgive", to make it shorter. That is the weapon Christ has given us of forgiveness, at this point, which stops your thinking. If any Dick, Tom and Harry cannot do it, you have to have realisation for it, and then because the Kundalini has reached there, and is stopping there you have to say alright, this is Lord's Prayer, you say Lord's Prayer. what is the mantra over here? It is Allah Akbar, you put these fingers here, and say "Allah Akbar" three times, if you don't want to do sixteen. But you have to be a realised soul, or the one who says to do it has to be a realised soul. It is an authority from God, not some theological college. It is a mockery, do you get knowledge of God from a theological college? I mean you must enter the Kingdom of God to know what He is, what He is like, what is His whole vidya, His knowledge. You will find that His knowledge is very different from the knowledge you have. Have you ever known that this is the visshudhi chakra?You have not known this before, it is not written. Some things had to be just told by Me also, because this was left for Me to be told. Now this chakra, the visshudi chakra, gives you the witness that Lord Krishna has described that you become the (...?) I would like you also to listen to the tape on Shri Krishna which is very good, recently I spoke about him in a very detailed manner. You can have all these tapes brought down to Melbourne, and listen to them, but listening to them only is of no use if you start living again in a funny way. I do not want you to make a pickle out of me as you have pickled out others. Put it into practice. Because when I spoke in America they were all taping me down, and everybody said "Mother you should not allow them to tape because sitting there are writers and this and that and they will use your knowledge and spread the, and I said "what can I do?, after all the Kundalini I have to awaken and I said "let them do it, I will be very happy to sit down if they can do it, let them do it I would be very happy." Anybody who says why should it be you, I will be very happy to settle down, because I gain nothing, what do I gain? For anybody who is willing to do it, I will be very happy to retire, absolutely. Because by God's grace I am a married woman, very happily married, I have my own children, I have grand children, why should I bother my head, travelling around like this? Yesterday in Sydney, today here in Melbourne, then again to Sydney, then to India, why should I do this? For what? Only because I love, I know this is my mission, I know I have to do it, this is my job, but if anybody else can do it I will be very happy for them to do it.Now when it comes to this awakening, and all that, it is the thing that happens to you, it is the thing that moves within you, and you have to feel the movement, it is not a blind game where you throw the money into the fountain and say "now I am going to enter into the marriage." You can do what you like. Somebody says jump, do this and so that. Nothing. Every bit is logical. First your Kundalini must arise, if it does not I cannot give you a certificate, nobody can give you a certificate, It is nothing like this. So in America when I went and they all had tape recorders, something bad has come out of it, it is called Born Again.

All these things have come from there, only from my lectures. Because I am told when the Christians, when they called me, thinking they'd be Christians in the churches they called me bonafide because I wasn't baptised according to them, so I should be baptised by these people so I would be alright, I was bonafide. They called me in the church, and they also collected a collection for me, very interesting. But best part of it, some of them caught up as they were, I say you have to be born again. Born again, so they have got a college called Born Again, finish. It is very difficult with these mad people, anything you tell them they make a cult out of. Anything you do they want to pickle, it is such a difficult thing. They don't want to take to reality, they want to keep their egos everywhere asserting by which they pluck out all that is living and make it dead, ugly and say "this is mine, this is mine." Absurd. But-this is what happened to us. Now about Christ, I think they just listened to Christ, they said (...) they showed what Krishna has said in his lifetime, that the spirit doesn't die, it cannot be killed, it cannot be lowered, it has to rise, what ever, and it rises. Whatever you may try, it is eternal, that is what Christ has proved by His resurrection. But by His resurrection He has achieved a great, which the Jews cannot know and the Christians have not carried the message because they also do not know. But the greatest thing He has done, to our awareness is, that if you pass through that centre your karmas are sucked, your sins are forgiven.This is the beauty He has created within us, by which our egos are sucked in, He sucks in our ego, He is the sucker of our ego. And all the Christian nations are the greatest ego orientated people. Very difficult to talk to them. First thing they will do is to box your nose. If not crucify you. They are extremely aggressive people, extremely aggressive and very ignorant. They are so naive, so naive, In India it is not so difficult to talk to them because they know what is knowledge. I mean they know what is Kundalini, they know. They know what is the rising of the Kundalili, they know who can do this, it is not difficult to talk to them, because the people are so naive, in spiritual life, and then they are so ego orientated, despite the fact that Christ is the one who is the sucker of your ego, He is the one who sucks your ego, so there is no karmas after realisation. You become the spirit, and spirit does not have any karma, it is a myth, it is sucked and this is what Christ has done for us.So, when Christians, so called, came to India, they converted people in such a crude method by putting a loaf in a well which the poor Indians ate - they are naive as far as Christianity was concerned - and they said this was the meat of the cows and now you are all finished, you are Christians, so the whole village became Christians. Like that they tried all dirty tricks on Indians and they all became Christians-and now Indian Christians are the worst of all, poor things, they think they are so condemned forever, now they can never be converted, they can never be realised, they cannot be resurrected, they are doomed people, who have eaten the cows' meat, not they, but their forefathers. It is such a wretched state. But if a realised soul had come they would have seen that this is what Christ was supposed to do, which is written in the Devi Mahatmayam, that He is the support of the universe.

But the narrow visions of Christians and the narrow visions of Hindus, and the narrow visions of Moslems have made such a mess, that the time has come to get the whole picture, the complete integration, of all these great incarnations, who are within you and to understand them in reality, what they are, and becoming yourself such a vital personality and a collective being Of Christ, I don't know, I must have spoken hours and hours, about Krishna I must have spoken hours. In England also we have got about 300 to 400 tapes on different subjects which you should get them and listen to them. But again do not make it a big (... ? for you, it is to be actualised, it has to be felt, it is to be practised within yourself. It is not for giving you any big knowledge. We have a book called Advent, which is written by a French Sahaja Yogi. It is a very beautiful book, but we do not sell it to people who are not realised. We do not, because it is very difficult for a person who is not realised to get the book, that is why they crucified Christ. That is why they tortured Mohammed. That is why they tortured all the saints, because they could not bear to the truth, their ego could not bear it. So we do not give those books to people who are not realised, if you are realised then you can order a copy, you can get the book, but otherwise not. I am sorry we have certain experiences, and we feel on these experiences that unless and until human beings are realised they are not going to value anything like that, they will value anything else but their mukta, and here you do not pay a single pai, so there is no binding force.

Like many people say, I say "why are you still doing these things", and they say "we have paid for it, so let us go through it", even if it is hell you go through it, that's the mentality. Now here there is nothing paid, there's on attachment, it is your freedom which is attached to you, if you are really a seeker you will go deep into it and have the blessings, have the beauty of that spirit which is within you, which you can have. The time has come, this was the time was promised, this was talked about in John's Revelations. Also in many of the Indian scriptures it is described. But the best is William Blake*, who has described it very beautifully in his book called "Miltonll, even the place where I lived, was Surrey Hills, he has said, the first beacons will be lit in Surrey Hills, he has also said where our ashram is, that in the ruins of Lambeth Way, foundations will

(end of tape 1)

(...?) That now you want to go to my car. Now my car has shifted to London. Better go to London, that's what it is. One has to realise that when we talk of anyone like Christ or Moses or Abraham or Mohammad or anyone, we should know they are all related to each other. While we are identified with one or the other. Let us identify ourselves with all of them to understanding of Kundalini you'll be amazed, when the Kundalini rises, if somebody's a muslum he has to take the name of Nanaka otherwise Kundalini doesn't rise. All the fanatics have to give up their fanaticism before the Kundalini rises. And even if their Kundalini rises and gives them realisation then again sinks back into their fanatic (...?)

So all these things will only disappear, all these related things will disappear as soon as you find your absolute, that is your spirit. About the Spirit, I'm sorry I cannot talk in such a small time, but there's a very good tape on Sat-Chit-Anand, that is the spirit and it's best to listen to that because I would do no honour to your spirit if I just finish it in two minutes or three minutes like that.

It's a very wide subject and very beautiful. Most enjoyable to know about your own spirit, about yourself, that, truly you are not this body, not this mind, not this ego. Neither these conditionings and these old ideas you have, conceptions. You are what you are. Thank you very much. Now I'm going away to India on the 8th, and tomorrow there's a good programme in Sydney and 8th I'll be giving up and then I'll be in Europe a short time and going back to London. Maybe next year I'll be coming here.

I would request you that you must attend your collective programmes because the message of Sahaja Yoga is collectivity. If you take my photograph and meditate at home after some time you'll find you'll lose vibrations. You will not grow. You have to grow collectively. It's very important that all of you should grow together collectively. Collectiveness must be developed otherwise you must work it out, how it works on others and how it cures others and how you help others, is to be seen. Some people will be coming from Melbourne, from Sydney to Melbourne, in the beginning still, who understand Sahaja Yoga and then they will go away. Of course there is no money, nothing involved as you see, we have started in a very small way. Now next time I come I'm sure Melbourne will be a (...?) of very good Sahaja Yogis. Not doubting, but understanding, doubting doesn't give you much chance, you see, what is there to doubt, is nothing but your ego is doubting something. There's nothing to doubt, just come and see this is a new university to which you have entered, you don't have to pay anything - that's all. When you have to pay, do not doubt and ask questions, I know you'll go head long, but here you are free, you have freedom to doubt but do not pull it too fast because you will spoil your chances of realisation. May God bless you.

(applause)

QUESTIONS

Q: Why is Hatha Yoga an impediment to the heart chakra?

Shri Mataji: The Hatha Yoga that you do here is an apology for the real Hatha Yoga. Real Hatha Yoga was written by Patanjali thousands of years back for students who used to go to their gurus and they were picked up specially for self -realisation. All the children used to go to gurus in childhood from 5-25 years of age and they lived a very celebate life in those places. There was not question of their marrying each other even when today we see these gotras with the universities, we cannot marry. In the same gotra, supposing my gotra is a (...?) I cannot marry any boy from the (...?) gotra. None of my children can also marry the gotra of my husband so that purity is still maintained as brothers and sisters. You can imagine the celebacy, that all the students of the universities were brothers and sisters. These are the times when long time back they had this (...?) where people used to have four stages of life. First was the Brahmacharya when celebacy was there. Second was the (Grahasta?) where they were married, then was the (Vanavastha?) where the husband - wife used to retire as grandparents in the forest and live with their children to give them love. And fourth one when they were Sanyasis - when one of them died they lived like just, like detached people - and helped everyone around.

Like that we had (Charturtvaisvath?). Now in this (Charturtvaisvath?) conditions you see the Patanjali was the great great master of realisation and the first thing that you have to do in Patanjali Yoga is (ashtung?). There are eight things, but simultaneously to be done. First thing is Ishwars, means establishment of God, means realisation. That's the first thing to be done that establish your God. Once you're established to your God then the Kundalini starts rising. Then supposing there's any problem on any centre, alright, then there is, there are other ways also of curing it. There are ashtunga and one of them is also a typical exercise for a particular chakra, if it is on the right side part of it we do use that but depending on what's the trouble. For example, I have a trouble in the throat and I try to do some exercise for the stomach, stomach will go out and the throat will remain as it is. It is like taking all the medicines in a medicine bottle without discrimination. That also is only (...?) which is the 24th part of his eight ashtungas. Eight multiplied 24.

Now why have chakra catches, also can be understood that when you pay so much attention to it is the (... yoga?) means physical exercises, isn't it? Just to, which I don't know people do it to become slaves and things and all these things. But if your attention is so much in your body only, alone, you are not only your body, you are your body, you are the mind, you are ego, superego, of all the things you are your spirit. There's no attention on your Spirit! That's why heart gets a problem because you don't pay attention to your Spirit, but your body. If you divert your attention too much to your body the spirit is angry; that's why the modern Hatha Yoga (...?), not the real Hatha Yoga, but the so called modern Hatha Yoga, even today in India, in many places, they practise the real Hatha Yoga but there are very few places and everbody's not allowed to enter there. It's very (...?).

We do use, we do use Hatha Yoga. But we do not sort of use the way you people do. When the Kundalini rises we know where is the problem is and different asanas are given. To all of them. I teach them which is to be done for each chakra if it is pertaining to the chakra that catches.

Q: I've always been given the impression, through reading about spiritual things, that you have to be a very evolved person before you start anything around Kundalini, and that it's actually quite dangerous to arouse Kundalini before you're, you know, you're cleaned up and gotten rid of your karmas and the whole business.

Shri Mataji: Very true, it's very difficult to raise the Kundalini, no doubt about it. Nobody should mess about. You have to be a very holy person to do it. Actually these people who have written books do not know a word about it. There's a one big book I read, when they said the Kundalini was in the stomach, I was astonished, I mean how can they write, he's a western man. So dishonest to write such a thing, that Kundalini's in the stomach. He doesn't know a word about it. See and how they write - God only knows from where they learn these things like that. And just to publish, just now, please, will you listen to this answer and listen to things first and tell it, because your mind is just on one question, please keep your mind to what I'm answering alright, now what happens that when the Kundalini rises She rises only under the authority of God, otherwise She does not. Because you are not in India, you will not know why I am raising the Kundalini, But Indians immediately know that what I am, there must be something about me, and they know who I am. Which I am very afraid to tell you. But they immediately know who I am. I don't have to tell them because it's already written, that only such a person can raise the Kundalini, so they know what it is. Because they have seen with their own eyes, the raising of the Kundalini. Alright, there's something special about me. That's how, alright now, what about this gentleman?

Q: If the highest and the lowest meet at the place of the Sahasrara, why do you associate Australia with Mooladhara chakra?

Shri Mataji: You see Mooladhara chakra is not the lowest, it is the holiest of holy. Is the highest. Is the first to be created. Is the greatest to be worshipped. Is first to be worshipped. If you ask an Indian he will know what it is to G..?) mooladhara chakra - if I have to declare to them that Australia mooladhara chakra they'll give up (Kashi?) and all these places and come down here (laughter). The mooladhara chakra is adorned by Ganesha who is purity, complete purity, he is innocence, he is the highest of highest, nobody can reach Ganesha, even Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha cannot reach. Now he felt that, I respect you because you are born here. Oh, he must have thought, and you are so pure, that's why you are put there. You are the highest of highest, that's why you are put there and nothing can make you impure. You are like a lotus, born in the mud.

Q: Can you feel your Kundalini rising more than once, and can you feel the sensations?

Shri Mataji: The kundalini is like many ropes, or strings tied together, like a rope, you see, you can say and one rises, then the second one rises. You can, so many people feel it, very much. Hugo told me that, Mother I was near (..?), left vishuddhi because we had done this mantra business, and he was cooking in the kitchen and suddenly he felt a cool breeze and the cool movement of the Kundalini and the left vishuddhi and he said, "I know Mother you are working there." It's like that. (...?) it's always right, once it is awakened. So I did, but you can feel it also by certain things, you can, if you want to, I mean even ( ...?) has freedom to do what they like. The Californian Indians, also, what to do if they are (...?) or folly, how can you help them.

Q: Can India be in the land of dharma?

Shri Mataji: Are you Indian?

A: No, Australian, Mother.

Shri Mataji: If I say something will they get angry with me - Australians?

A: Yes they would.

Shri Mataji: Then you tell me what is there, discretion is better part of valour.

A: Discretion Mother.

Shri Mataji: India is, India is a, I know what is the next will come after that, that why there is such a problem. India is a spiritual country, no doubt about it. Because the accent is not on material developments but is on the control of the spirit, the control of the attention. From the very childhood, the children are taught how to control the attention. "Where is your attention?", a mother will say. She will not say, "you spoiled the carpet", she will not say this, that's it, accent is not on the carpet. But, where is your attention? And still it's (basic?). So we can say, apart from that, this country has the Kundalini of the Universe. It is the Kundalini, and England is the Heart.So I don't know which one is better, which one is less, everything is so important. But definitely, India is a Yoga Bhoomi, no doubt. But yours is Punya Bhoomi, I said, Punya means where people have earned lots of credits, credits, good credits from God, is a Punya Bhoomi, no doubt about it.

They have earned, their conscience is good, Australians have a good conscience. No doubt about it, it's a Punya Bhoomi.

Q:(Warren repeats question): There are people in Australia who play straight stock on Shambali consciousness. He's surprised you haven't mentioned it.

Shri Mataji: No, I don't know them, I've not met them. But maybe they are doing some sort of a supraconscious stuff. He says it is (Warren: invisible master). No, no, that invisible master is a joke, I tell you it's a big joke. You better be your own master. Because these invisible masters that I have been to some places in America, where they, having invisible masters and all that, they're all possessed, absolutely possessed people. None of them

you see, actually one should understand one simple thing, that none of the masters can possess you, can never, they give you complete freedom.. They do their job without possessing you, how can you get connected with them, unless and until you have got Kundalini awakening? You have to be awakened, otherwise how will you be connected, just sitting together like this, and this is all supraconscious activity which you can, listen to one of my lectures where I have described all these things very clearly. You see, it might have started from the seeking only, but while seeking, when they don't find it, they want to break their heads, that's what it is. All these things have started from seeking.

(Not big nonsense?) I do not think. I do not want to say even that people who are using sex for Kundalini awakening are also wrong, because I am a Mother, I want to excuse everyone. I said maybe that they might have seen Shri Ganesha sitting there, and his trunk they might have misunderstood as the Kundalini, might be, you see as a Mother I have to make excuses for my children. But, it's a big mistake, not to, a big mistake, but plunging into the nonsense - that is true. Proof of the pudding is in the eating. Anyone you meet who says I've got it, alright, tell me where is my chakra? Where are your chakras? Finished. Where is my Kundalini? Where is your Kundalini? He will tell you, Hugo can tell, Sahaja Yogis can tell. Any great realised soul will say that the Kundalini is there. This is, this is the way you should know. Does he tell you about the Kundalini? Where is the Kundalini? What is the chakra, and when did he say. Actual thing, if someone, supposing there's a doctor, then he should be able to diagnose. He says I'm a doctor of this university, doctor of that university, ultimately you find that he's not even a doctor.

Not ever a fisherman. So anybody says anything, you should not believe, but see for yourself - what realised. Unless and until you have got realisation, you cannot understand it. Now what is it?

Q: Do you want to keep the body in God or do you want to take mote incarnations?

(Warren: I think the language is very much styled by some of his reading, Mother)

Shri Mataji: I just don't understand, my child, you are reading too much; better stop it. One should not read so much that you go mad. Actually, really this is too much. That's why Kabir says when I was born, I read Kabir, he said (...?) means by reading too much, even the learned have become stupid. I said how can they become stupid? I could not understand. If you read too much you get so confused, you see. All of the (...?) are in your head, and you are lost. Now, don't be funny. Don't ask about Me. I'm not going to tell you anything about myself. I'll only tell you about you, alright! Better not, because I do not want to fall into any controversies, I do not want to be crucified this time! Alright. That's between you and me.

Q: Twenty years ago my father used to tell me that I was not to make myself (...) the first half an hour of this programme was spent criticizing other people. I would have thought...

(Warren: He's a little upset at the fact that you're criticizing.)

Shri Mataji: Yes, it is necessary. Because I find that here people have suffered a lot. I have to tell about them.

You see when a Mother sees (...?) that children are doing and killed by other people She has to tell them. It is a very sad thing, I don't like it. I did not do it for years but I cannot help it now, to tell them. I find somebody like Hugo coming to me with all his backbone broken and monies lost, everything. I have to tell him. I should say "now go and garland the fellow and give all the money you have, also, and give away?" Should I? What should I do? Criticizing is only possible when you see you want to see that what is wrong. Like Christ, people said "now why do you criticize?" They do not criticize. He said the devil is not going to talk against his own home or house. It's true, they are not going to talk against, they are all friends! But they will all fight, you will see, and fall down. Do you know what harm they have done to people? Then you will not say I should not criticize. It takes courage to criticize them. Who will criticize? Will you?

A: (...?)

Shri Mataji: Why not?

A: I'm not going to say anything.

Shri Mataji: Will you, will you not criticize, if you find your own child being hurt and bothered by someone?

(Warren: it's a pointless discussion, Mother)

Shri Mataji: You are pointless really, Useless. If you are such a compassionate person do something good.

A: Yes, Mother.

Next Question: Did you explain about karma, about letting go of karma? What happens then?

Shri Mataji: You see, I was saying that you let it go mentally, or rationally. You see, it happens to you. Your karma gets sucked in by the ego, this chakra is that of Christ, alright and this chakra, when it is opened, He sucks your karmas. Ego is sucked in, is absorbed. And it is neutralised. This is what Christ has done, which nobody has been able to say, (...?) he absorbs it, we say that he died for our sins, (... means what? Still you say, "we are sinners." Now he died for, (...?) "we should suffer",. why should you suffer? You are saints! Why should you suffer? And if anybody tries any ( ?) at you, or makes you suffer, I will not allow. They had a very bad time before, no more. They better not try these tricks, I'll flog them openly, and expose them, all of them, one by one. Whether you like it or not. I have to protect my children.

Q: I've heard said that Kundalini's the power of the imagination. What truth is in that?

Shri Mataji: You will see for yourself. It is not. Yousee this is the trouble, everybody starts talking about God,about Kundalini, everybody has a right, whether you haveauthority or not. Who's going to ask you? These are likevillagers coming to the city, touching somewhere in theplugs and saying that electricity gives you a shock. Theyare so naive and so stupid and lwnely people. Then they allstart talking like this. I'm telling 1 you the truth, you cansee for yourself. Don't believe these people. what goodhave they done? You see, anybody who says anything, ask"what good have you done?" Why do you talk? Finished. Howmany people you have given realisation. But you will startgiving realisation to others once your Kundalini isawakened. The proof of the pudding is in eating. It is easyto talk.

A: Well actually, I read it in a pretty reputable book.

(Warren: what was the book?)

A: In search of the miraculous.

(Warren: the miraculous, who said it's - does it give vibrations this book, that's what you have to check)

Shri Mataji: So many reputable people, you'll find them very soon, are absolutely horrible people. You'll find them..24(Warren: it's a pointless discussion, Mother)

Shri Mataji: You are pointless really, Useless. If you are such a compassionate person do something good.

A: Yes, Mother.

Next Question: Did you explain about karma, about letting go of karma? What happens then?

Shri Mataji: You see, I was saying that you let it go mentally, or rationally. You see, it happens to you. Your karma gets sucked in by the ego, this chakra is that of Christ, alright and this chakra, when it is opened, He sucks your karmas. Ego is sucked in, is absorbed. And it is neutralised. This is what Christ has done, which nobody has been able to say, (...?) he absorbs it, we say that he died for our sins, (... means what? Still you say, "we are sinners." Now he died for, (...?) "we should suffer",. why should you suffer? You are saints! Why should you suffer? And if anybody tries any ( ?) at you, or makes you suffer, I will not allow. They had a very bad time before, no more. They better not try these tricks, I'll flog them openly, and expose them, all of them, one by one. Whether you like it or not. I have to protect my children.

Q: I've heard said that Kundalini's the power of the imagination. What truth is in that?

Shri Mataji: You will see for yourself. It is not. Yousee this is the trouble, everybody starts talking about God,about Kundalini, everybody has a right, whether you haveauthority or not. Who's going to ask you? These are likevillagers coming to the city, touching somewhere in theplugs and saying that electricity gives you a shock. Theyare so naive and so stupid and lwnely people. Then they allstart talking like this. I'm telling 1 you the truth, you cansee for yourself. Don't believe these people. what goodhave they done? You see, anybody who says anything, ask"what good have you done?" Why do you talk? Finished. Howmany people you have given realisation. But you will startgiving realisation to others once your Kundalini isawakened. The proof of the pudding is in eating. It is easyto talk.

A: Well actually, I read it in a pretty reputable book.

(Warren: what was the book?)

A: In search of the miraculous.

(Warren: the miraculous, who said it's - does it give vibrations this book, that's what you have to check)

Shri Mataji: So many reputable people, you'll find them very soon, are absolutely horrible people. You'll find them..25First you get your realisation. Can you tell where is this Kundalini? Finished. Sahaja Yoga doesn't deal with all these-dramas. You have to tell me where is the Kundalini of another person? You have to raise the Kundalini. You should be able to give baptism. You have to see that the cool breeze comes out. That's what Sahaja Yoga is. You might brand yourself, anything. So what? You might brand yourself as Shri Krishna, what to do? You can, you see this is all imagination. This is what imagination is.

(Warren: not books, not books)

Shri Mataji: You see, Sydney people never ask so many questions and they got realisation - about five hundred of them. Melbourne are more asking questions and less people getting. And this is all imagination, just think of it. Who would like to be in such imaginary powers?

(Warren: just finish your question)

Shri Mataji: But there is no question, you see people have questions ...

A: No, I don't have a question, I just want to say that...

Shri Mataji: Question has no meaning, you must get your realisation.

Q: Didn't Lord Chaitanya in the 16th century propagate the chanting of Hare Krishna in India? Wasn't he a very great person? Some say he was an incarnation of Krishna himself.

Shri Mataji: You see Lord Chaitanya (...?)16th, in the 16th. This, the one who started was this Hare Krishna fellow. I need not say, but you see his ways only. Now he's no more, thank God. But you see his ways. How does he look like? You always used to say he carried .... who was the jockey. His face was so (...?),Did he look like a happy man, by any chance? What makes you think like this, that by chanting God's name you will reach God? On the contrary you'll be arrested. I'll tell you a simple thing. For example, if you have to chant God's name, this is, say the prime ministers name, I don't know who's the prime minister. You go near his house and start chanting his name. They'll all arrest you. What right have you got to chant his name they will ask you? As simple as that. Lord Chaitanya was there, it's alright (...?) this gentleman was saying, actually he is not Lord Chaitanya, so you better (...?) confuse him with that. It's like any saying (...?) "I'm Christ" (...?) is like that, is not to be considered here but what I would say that is simple thing, use your logic.* If you want to take somebody's name you should be at least connected to that person. Supposing there's a telephone and is not connected you go on ringing a person, Shri Krishna, Shri Krishna will you reach there? You have to be connected.

It spoils your throat completely, you will see that it's an antidote of smoking, you take it from me is a nervousness in the throat, you see, and some people find an expression for the (...?), it is just an imaginary thing, there is nothing like enjoying something in the imaginations. Take the reality into your hands what Krishna has said, that you are to become the (...?) You have to know it means you have to become realised souls. Even in baptism he said you have to be (ananyabakti?) Now (...?) means you are realised when you are not the other, when you are realised then you do the bhakti, he also said the same thing.

Q: But didn't He also say that to realise him you have to have devotion towards him, to realise him you have to worship him?

Shri Mataji: And did I say that you should not have devotion? You should have devotion from your heart but not this imaginary thing, "I'm in love with Krishna and the river Ganges and I'm the Yamuna river" or "I'm feeling the picture", all this nonsense, and then "I'm walking and Krishna breaks (...?)", all this imaginary thing you should not do. Just you must have devotion not only for Krishna but, for all these people. Hare Krishna movement, do they tell you what Christ did, did they tell you what Mohammed has done, (why did they cancelled all other?) Enjoyment is not the (...?) you must get the joy, not enjoy.

A: NO, but is like, is not even a reward is, just that I am saying that ... truly, I find joy, I don't chant like a (.. ) "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna"

Shri Mataji: Why don't you do it, you should if you belong to that cult you should, you dhould wear that horrible sari which is called ( ... ?) and dance with that, that's what you should do like all other sadus, if you don't do it you're a sensible woman but still you have to get your realisaton.

A: Yes but you see,

Shri Mataji: If you are satisfied with what you are I have nothing to force you, I also cannot promise you realisation my child that is one thing I have to tell you very humbly.

A: I agree with you Mataji that we should look at all the great teachers, I'm not closed off, I read all the great teachers.

Shri Mataji: That you do, but it's all on the mental level I'm saying you have to go beyond, you have to become.

Q: In this age is it possible to get realisation from any other than you or your devotees?

Shri Mataji: Of course, you also can give realisation once you are realised, of course, that's what it is and that is what William Blake has written very clearly. About him, he has said that men of God will become prophets and these prophets will have the capacity to make others prophets. This is what it is. You can do it. They, you see, you don't know in Australia, just a minute, just a minute, In Australia I didn't come before. He and his friend, Terence, were there in India, and they are half-baked because I live in the villages you see, I have most of my disciples in the villages-because the city people, the city people (...?) they all want to try this show and circus, so I go to villages, I mean in the villages we don't even have (...?) or anything. (...?) with the whole show that they wanted to run away you see, but I said "No, no, no, stay back, stay back", somehow or other,(...?) they got their realisation, very difficult, this one (...?) He didn't listen to anyone. Jai Rama, Jai Krishna, everything he has done, he's gone through every sort of a myth and then he got his realisation and then he gave realisation to two hundred people these two, so you can do it also.

Q: Yes, alright, I agree with that, but it can only come from you or your disciples, or can it come from people other than Sahaja Yogis?

Shri Mataji: Could be

(Warren: there are great realised souls) Shri Mataji: Yes, there are one or two of them, four or five I should say who 1 know. One of them is ... ?) and I said "Why don't you give realisation to them?" You see these gurus are not so simple like your Mother. He's very difficult personality. One day he told me "if anyone troubles you you had better send him over to me, I'm not going to give realisation to anyone. I gave to one and he turned out to be nothing." I didn't know he was such a difficult thing, one day this gentleman was just troubling me for nothing at all, "Why do you want to give realisation to all of them, they don't deserve it", and all that sort of thing. Always they used to ask me. Questions and trouble me.

I said, "(Gotal1) (Maharaja?) calling you" and this man doesn't receive anyone normally, you see, so he was very happy, "Oh he's such a holy man, that (Maharaji?) calling me." Really I don't know again whether to laugh or to cry, the way things happen. After some time he came in such a horrible state, poor thing, his legs were tied up here, and he was dangling them, two people were carrying them. "What happened?", really tears came into my eyes, "What has happened? What has he done out of him." So he came in and said "Mother do anything, but don't send me to (Maharaji?)."

And what did he do? He said, "you don't know, he's very cruel." I said "What did you do?" He'said that, "you see, I just told him." I said, "You talk against me?" "Yes, I said, "Mother gives realisation to everyone, everyday, Tom Harry. She doesn't ( ... ?) anyone and this and that. I said, That's all! Yes, and a little more I said something against you I know", But what did you do, you see you said you did not do ( ... ?) They had broken his legs and hands so he goes about on a tiger and he said his tiger came in the night and threw me into a ( ... ?) and I was lying there for three days with the broken legs, nobody bothered about me. For he dropped some rotis, that's a kind of bread weeat in India, that you eat now, lie down there. I was just there in all filth and everything. I was lying there for again three days, he was giving me rotis from there and then of the seventh day he sent some people to carry me out. And he said, "Now you go to that Mataji with your legs round your neck, dangling, and she is the one who is going to fix you up and now don't say a word against her."

That's what they are. Another doctor who was troubling me a lot, so I said "why don't you (...?)", this was before this thing happened, you know. So the doctor came. absolutely, in a very run down condition, I said "what happened, he said "that Maharaji asked me to clean a Shiva temple. He said its very nice you'll enjoy it very much. You are cleaning Shiva - this is a very great temple of Shiva, clean it. And everyday I used to walk three miles up the hill, clean the Shiva temple with water, buckets used to carry, and then come back, carry buckets and all that." In one month he became a very thin fellow, just like as if he has been climbing Himalayas. So I asked "why did you do like this? He said "donkeys must be given donkeys' job." Another (Maharaj?), he's a great person, I know of in (...?) I asked him, I said "why don't you go to America." He ran away. In three days he ran away, he said, "they are useless people, why are you giving them realisation? They are good for nothing! They are useless people, they don't deserve it. Let them hang themselves!"

And one of the disciples who were in America had given him realisation. He was an Indian, and he started earning money out of Sahaja Yoga. I did not know. When he came to Bombay, people found out from his vibrations that he was very hot, so I asked him "what do you do?" and he showed me the brochure! It was written: "for ordinary vibrations $200, and for special ones $500". 1 was shocked, I said "how can you do it?" He said "now I have to run a hotel for them", and I said "you run a hotel or do whatever you like, in the name of God you cannot run a hotel like (...?), you have to run it for your own sake. It's alright. And you don't pay for their stay, but you cannot make money out of it. You cannot. I know. You can do some other work, what you were doing (...?)"1 was teaching." I said, "now you should teach. You cannot go into enterprises like this in the name of God. (...?) to pay for vibrations. How much did you pay for your realisation? That you are charging?" He got very angry with me. He said, "you must have money otherwise what will you do", and this and that. I said, "see, you can do any business you like on your own but you cannot do it in the name of God and nor organisation like this is going to be raised in the name of God. And I will not have it. I really tell you, forbid it (...?)" 1 was very strict. Got very angry. Till (...?) Maharaj took it. And then he came back about a month or so. He said, "I had a very bad time in this Maharaj". I said "what happened?" "I don't know how he came to know that I have been to you. But I went to his place, I went into the gate and he started throwing stones at me. And I got hurt very badly, so I ran away to the station. Then he said to one man there saying that ah, how dare you come to see me when you have insulted Mother. And you wretched fellow" and all sorts of things.So then, poor man, he said, "for that I'm sorry, but I must see Maharaj" and all that. The third day he allowed him to see and then he said that you go and tell Mother that I will come and pay my respects. (...?) and he sent a very nice tape with all the Sanskrit music that he knew with him. When this fellow came back he telephoned to me, he said "Mother, please forgive me, this has happened." (...?) and he said this thing, He said it on the telephone "I want to meet You." But you'll be surprised he's tried and tried. He went to America, came to London, he never met me. This is what happened.

You see, I can understand your questioning is alright, but I can tell you, I asked a gentlman this morning, that before 3000, paid 3000 pounds do you find out why you are paying or did you ask any questions - said nothing. "I just paid." Before these gurus you don't ask any questions. Just go headlong before. It's only with Mother, you take liberties, go on this way or that way. For example, this lady who is Hare Krishna, did she ask any questions to her guru?

A: Yes I did Mother.

Shri Mataji: Nothing,

A: No, I asked many questions,

Shri Mataji: That's it. What I'm trying to tell you, that when you have freedom, use it for your good. Use it for your good. No. None of them has said that you should have your realisation, did they say? On the contrary, they said "perform your (...?) here (...?) your money. We have to run an organisation. We have to run this." Did they say that "I'll give you realisation"? Any one of them? And when I say I'm giving you realisation, you want to ask me questions. What does that suggest? What does that suggest, that you have no self estimation Simple thing. If you knew that you are (...?) with it: You'll get it. Now you don't ask me any questions, because your questions is pointless. Are you sent by somebody here?

A: I'm very pleased to see you.

Shri Mataji: Ah.

A: I said I'm pleased to see you.

Shri Mataji: Then why do you ask questions, now disturbing everyone. If you really love me, then sit down now and have your realisation. Be a nice boy. Come along. It's too much.

A: What is?There's a real difference between and awareness that's free.

(Warren: words words words)

Shri Mataji: Now you see, disturbed us now, he's going out. Now how many of you want to.... I do not want to answer the questions of the people who are just here to ask questions. Don't want to. All those who are asking questions are going to go away. I know that.

*(about William Blake)