1902-08-01 1 1 0 REPS 14805 0 House of Representatives. 1902-08-01 Mr.Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 14805 miscellaneous Mr. DEAKIN(Ballarat- Attorney-General . - In view of the information which has reached us, I take the first opportunity this morning to move, without notice- That this House expresses its deep regret at the appalling disaster which has occurred in the Mount Kembla colliery, and its sympathy with the relatives of those who have been killed or injured. The resolution is simplicity itself, as probably befits any reference to such a catastrophe. It appears that tragic incidents of this kind are inseparable from coal-mining, one of the greatest industries upon this or any other continent, and that the resources of science and the training of those engaged in the industry are alike unable to guard against awful sacrifices of human life, sudden and terrible. It is with the deepest regret that I submit this motion as some indication to those now suffering that their calamity has not passed unnoticed in this House, and that the representatives of Australia are all in sympathetic touch with them in their great affliction. 14806 JRR TASMANIA FT 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir EDWARD BRADDON - This motion must necessarily appeal to every honorable member of this House, and to every member of the community. It is one of the saddest features of our industrial life that men employed in mining and some other avocations carry their lives in their hands in their daily operations, and are occasionally stricken down, as these men have been, by an overwhelming disaster. We know that the men who work in mines are capable of performing deeds of quiet heroism. The facts are not always published, but if they were they would invariably justify our highest admiration. When we think of the domestic trouble caused by this lamentable disaster, our hearts must bleed for the unfortunate members of the families of those who have been stricken down. I second the motion. 14806 KYJ Bendigo 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - As the representative of the great mining community of Bendigo, I desire to express my fullest sympathy with the motion submitted by the Acting Prime Minister. In times past we have had very many mining accidents of a tragic and fearful character in Bendigo and other parts of Victoria, but never such an appalling disaster as this.' Perhaps never in the history of Australia has there been such a dreadful wreck of human life, with all the consequent prospective human misery. I desire to express my own sympathy and that of the minors of Bendigo, and of Australia generally, and I trust that when the proper time arrives everything possible will be done to lessen the misery resulting from this dreadful catastrophe, and that those who have been involved in suffering will have the hearty assistance and substantial support of the people of the Commonwealth. Mr.FULLER (Illawarra).- As the representative of 'the district in which this unfortunate accident has occurred, I desire to join with the Acting Prime Minister and those who have spoken to the motion, in expressing my sympathy with those who have been afflicted. In my position as representative of the district, I knew many of the men who have been stricken down. Unfortunately some of the heroic men who attempted to save the doomed miners have sacrificed their lives, among them being Major McCabe, one of the leading men in the district. This adds to the very serious consequences of the disaster, and, I join with other members in expressing my sincere sympathy with those who have been overwhelmed with sorrow. 14806 KQU Melbourne 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - As one largely interested in an adjoining property, I feel that it would not be out of place on my part to express my deepest sympathy with those who are suffering in consequence of the disaster. The sad loss of life and- dislocating of trade will be attended with disastrous consequences to the district, and,' so far as I am concerned, and the company with which I am connected, everything possible will be done to help those who are suffering. 14806 F4R Bland 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I think the Acting Prime Minister is to be complimented upon having given the House an opportunity to express its feelings in regard to this disaster. I do not. suppose there are any of us who do not feel the deepest sympathy with all the relatives of the men who have been killed or injured. The disaster is, unfortunately, one of several that have occurred in New South Wales, and the only relief we can feel in the midst of the present trouble is afforded by the knowledge that some steps have been taken in the past to provide for such emergencies as that which has now arisen, and that relief will be afforded to those who are left behind. There is no necessity to say more than that we are all in sincere accord with the motion. Question resolved in the affirmative. 14806 009MD Ballaarat Protectionist Attorney-General 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that you will be good enough, on behalf of the House, to forward this resolution, by telegraph, to the Mayor of Wollongong. 14806 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I shall be happy to do so. 14806 K5D IND; ALP from June 1901 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I desire to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the Government will grant £10,000 or £15,000 towards assisting the families of the unfortunate victims. In the case of the disaster at Mount Pelee the American Government voted £100,000 for the assistance of the sufferers. 14807 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The considerations involved in the honorable member's question will require serious deliberation. 14807 Questions 14807 14807 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - I desire to know whether the Secretary for Home Affairs will lay upon the table the correspondence which has passed between the Superintendent of Public Works in South Australia and his department, with reference to the charge of 10 per cent for supervision in connexion with the carrying out of works for the Commonwealth? 14807 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have no objection to lay the correspondence before the House. I regret that I was not present last night when certain references were made to this matter by one honorable member from South Australia. 14807 14807 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - I desire to know when the report of Judge Dashwood on the pearl-shelling industry at Thursday Island will be available ? 14807 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - As soon as the Government Printer can publish it. The report is accompanied by maps and tables of figures, and the printing will therefore occupy a little longer time than usual. 14807 14807 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I desire to ask the Treasurer whether, in view of the recent debates on the subject of loans, and the necessity of carrying out certain public works without delay, he intends to continue to hand over to the States month by month all the surplus revenue, instead of appropriating some part of it for the construction of public works. 14807 KWT Protectionist 1 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - I have no power to retain any portion of the money. The Constitution compels me to return month by month the amount collected in each particular State, after deducting the amount expended upon transferred services in that State and the State's share of the new expenditure. The question whether we should affirm the principle of appropriating revenue for the construction of these works, to which loan funds have hitherto been applied, is one that honorable members will have to carefully consider, because it will probably involve taking revenue from the poorer States of Tasmania and Queensland for the purpose of carrying out works in New South Wales andVictoria. 14807 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Queensland is not a poor State. 14807 KWT 0 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - I am speaking from the revenue stand-point. The matter is one which we shall have to very carefully discuss, and I propose to give honorable members an opportunity to consider it when I bring forward the Estimates - during the current month, I hope. An Honorable Member. - Why not bring them forward at once ? 14807 KWT 0 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - The trouble is that we cannot obtain the necessary information. 14807 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Could not the Treasurer almost at once consult the House, and thus settle the policy of the Commonwealth with regard to minor public works, so that he may make the necessary appropriations, and forthwith proceed with the works, which are now practically suspended for want of funds ? 14807 KWT 0 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - We cannot decide what we shall do with the surplus revenue until we know what the financial position of each individual State will be, and how the expenditure of a certain amount of money would affect it. I proposed to pay for these works out of loan funds, but honorable members were pretty evenly divided upon the question whether they should be constructed out of loans or out of revenue. If honorable members are prepared to affirm the principle that these works should be constructed out of loan funds, well and good, but I cannot ask them to consent to the works being paid for out of revenue until we ascertain the financial position of the States: It is difficult at present to obtain the necessary information to enable us to frame the Estimates, and the Defence Estimates have to be practically redrafted owing to the heavy reductions made. I hope to be able to deliver my financial statement by the middle of this month, and the House can then discuss the question whether these works should be constructed out of surplus revenue. 14807 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - Why are we not discussing the Estimates now, instead of wasting time in the consideration of measures which there is no prospect of passing? 14808 KWT 0 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER -The Estimates are not yet prepared. 14808 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - In the meantime, will the right honorable gentleman- make a substantial advance to allow of some of thesE works being proceeded with 1 14808 KWT 0 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - The House was good enough to provide me with an advance of £50,000. A large proportion of that sum had to be appropriated to pay debts which had been incurred in Queensland, and which could not otherwise be discharged. The advance, therefore, has been practically exhausted, and I have to carry on other works with the money that is in hand. I cannot provide the funds necessary for large undertakings, but all minor works which are absolutely necessary are, I believe, being carried out. 14808 bill In Committee(Consideration resumed from 31st Jul}', vide page 14S05) : Clause 3 - The Governor-General may authorize the payment out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, which is hereby appropriated for the purpose, of bonuses on the manufacture in Australia after the commencement of this Act of the goods specified in the schedule to this Act according to the rates set out in the said schedule. Provided that no bonus shall be paid in respect of pig-iron, puddled bar iron, iron or steel pipes or tubes, or steel, unless the same is manufactured in works operated by a State Government. Upon which Mr. Kingston had moved, by way of amendment - That all the words after the word "schedule," line 7, be omitted, 14808 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - When this matter was previously before the committee I spoke at some length, and I have no desire to traverse the ground which I then covered. Considering the inordinate length of the session and the urgency which exists for bringing it to a close, I regret that the Government should have revived this Bill, especially when there are important measures awaiting consideration. To my mind legislative action in connexion with this matter might very well have been deferred for the present, and a fair opportunity given to the States to decide whether or not they are prepared to embark upon the iron industry. Last night the Minister for Trade and Customs made a very impassioned address, from which I gathered that he is strongly in sympathy with the view entertained by a number of honorable members that this industry ought to receive special attention at the hands of the States Governments. Yet, because he has received a message from the States Premiers indicating that they are not prepared to immediately nationalize the work of iron production, he abandons his convictions and invites the committee to adopt the original proposition of the Government. Surely the Minister realizes that lightning changes occur in politics, and that very frequently a Government hostile to a measure to-day are its strong advocates to-morrow. The honorable member for Bland instanced a number of such changes in the New South Wales Legislature, pointing out that. important measures like the Old-Age Pensions Bill, and the Arbitration Bill, had been placed upon the statute-book through the instrumentality of men who had previously opposed them. I have in my mind a further instance. Just about twelve months ago I introduced to the present Premier of that State a representative deputation of farmers and settlers, who requested that legislation should be enacted to assist land-holders by making monetary advances. The Premier strongly opposed such a step, as an unnecessary and unwise interference in the domain of private enterprise. Before the session closed, however, he had evidently realized the error of his ways, seeing that he had introduced and passed through the Parliament a measure which practically gave effect to the views of the deputation. If the Bill under consideration be passed, and the same amount of pressure is brought to bear upon the New South Wales Government, I am convinced that history will repeat itself. 14808 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable member is referring to the Advances to Settlers' Bill 1 14808 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - I am referring to tm> Advances to. Settlers' Amendment Bill. The original Act provided for advances to settlers in the drought-stricken areas only. But what I desire to emphasize is that, despite the unfavorable reply which the deputation received, the period for repaying loans has been extended from ten to 30 years, the maximum advance has been increased from £200 to £500, and the Bill has been made applicable to land-holders general]}'-. I claim that if any industry ought to be under the direct control of the State, it is the iron industry. I know that some gentlemen view such a doctrine with suspicion, because they regard it as an incursion into the domain of practical socialism. Their inconsistency, however, is evidenced by their admission that the' State ownership of the railways, telephone and telegraph systems, has been amply justified. This is an experiment upon similar lines, and I hold that the nationalization of the iron industry will be abundantly warranted by results. In support of that contention, I would point out that there is a great dissimilarity between the Australian States and other .communities, such as Canada and America. In those countries the railways, which are the largest consumers of iron, are in the hands of private enterprise. In launching upon the work of iron production, a State would be assisting its railways, which consideration furnishes an additional reason why the industry should be nationalized. Further, the iron industry is the mother of all others. 14809 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - It is the backbone of most industries. 14809 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - Exactly. It is an industry which, if handed over to a private company, will place that company in a position to dictate terms to every other industry. From the very outset, therefore, it should be placed upon the same footing as our railways, telegraphs, and telephones, I am surprised that, because of a little opposition from various States, the Minister for Trade and Customs should feel called upon to take his hand from the plough and to look back. If he wishes to plough a straight furrow in connexion with this matter, he must look forward. In my previous remarks upon this question I stated that if I had to choose between granting this industry indirect assistance by means of the Tariff, and direct encouragement by the payment of a bonus, I should prefer the latter course. At the same time I added that I would rather grant a bonus to the States' Governments than to private enterprise. That is the attitude which I assumed, and I am prepared to abide by it. But if the proposal to nationalize the iron industry is defeated, I ' shall not fight against assisting private enterprise in this particular direction, Although I shall endeavour to see that the interests of the taxpayer are properly safeguarded. In submitting this proposal to the committee I claim that the Minister for Trade and Customs has not supplied honorable members with sufficient information to warrant them in taking the step which he asks If this were merely a question of voting £250,000 for the assistance of some private company, it would lose some of its importance. We have to remember, however, that in order to raise .the amount we shall have to impose additional taxation to the extent of £1,000,000 ; and, under the circumstances, the necessity for information and for thoroughly safeguarding the interests of the taxpayer is accentuated. Canada has, I suppose, experimented more extensively with the bonus system than has any other British community. The Dominion Government have followed different lines from those which have hitherto been adopted in Australia. The States here have directly undertaken the work of developing our natural resources by means of railway extension, harbor accommodation, and postal and telegraph conveniences, whereas the Canadian policy has been, to assist private enterprise by the granting of bonuses. We are invited by the Minister to take Canada as our example in dealing with the establishment of the iron industry, and he has quoted figures showing the great development which has followed the application of the bonus system in that country. The Blyth River Iron Mining Company, who strongly urge the adoption of the bonus system, have circulated a reprint of an article from the Canadian Iron and Steel Industry Magazine of May, 1902, and I presume we may regard the statements therein as reliable. In that article it is stated that the number of blast-furnaces in Canada is about fourteen, and that there are four in course of construction, and four more projected. It is estimated that the total capacity of the furnaces in existence and in course of construction in Canada represents 1,090,300 tons. 14809 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The total consumption in Canada last year was only 190,000 tons. 14809 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - No ; that was the consumption of pig iron only. 14809 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN -The production rose from 44,791 tons, in 1894, to 244,976 tons, in 1901, and, according to the article, the output of the Canadian furnaces is 22 per cent, of the capacity, as against 60 per cent, in the case of the furnaces in the United States. On a per capita basis the production in the United States is four times that in Canada, the former being 475 lbs., and the latter 110 lbs. The writer of the article strongly favours the bonus system, but he urges the very significant contention that a duty or bonus should be so framed as to be efficient in hard times as well as in good times. The true import of that statement is found in a table which shows the amounts which have been expended in bonuses in Canada. In 1884 the amount paid was 44,090 dollars, and every year shows a variation, until in 1891 the figure is 20,153 dollars. In 1901 the expenditure had increased to 351,259 dollars, showing that there have been periods of prosperity and periods of depression. Much is said about great benefits which result to wage-earners from the introduction of capital by means of the bonus system, and to hear the arguments usually advanced one would suppose that the wages fund was wholly drawn from capital. But the common experience of hard-headed, practical commercial men is that capital does not pay wages for any very lengthened period - that if wage-earners are not able to produce their own wage fund and a little over, an industry very quickly comes to a standstill, and the wage-earners have to seek elsewhere for employment which will enable them to provide the fund. (Committee counted.) 14810 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - When that happens capital, as a rule, has gone also. 14810 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - Capital will not stay long where any very great demands are made on it, no matter what the industry or the assistance granted may be. There is a further paragraph in the article, which I commend to the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, who is the high -priest of protection in Victoria. The contention of that honorable member when the Tariff was under review was that protective duties, whilst blocking importation, result in the decreasing the prices of commodities within the charmed circle on which its benefits are conferred. The article states that the Canadian mine owners have to face unfair competition at the hands of the American mine-owners, who are selling iron in Canada at 3 dollars per ton less than American consumers have to pay for the same article. Under the circumstances, it is contended that further assistance should be given, and in the Argus or Age of yesterday may be found a cable message stating that a new steel corporation has been founded in Canada for the purpose of meeting and resisting the competition. This corporation has a capital of £3,600,000, and it is to receive assistance from the Canadian Government by way of bonus to the extent of £1,000,000, with the further extraordinary concession of exemption from the federal taxation for twenty years. It is anticipated that by these means the mine-owners of Canada will be able not only to meet the competition of the American mine-owners, but also to produce iron 30 per cent. cheaper than is possible in America. The bonus system in Canada has been in vogue for a number of years, and, as there has been fair opportunity to demonstrate its good as well as its bad qualities, the results should prove instructive when it is proposed that we should embark on a similar policy. It will be readily admitted, I think, that the Economist is a reliable and competent authority on politico-financial questions. In that publication of 3rd May this year there is an article from a Canadian correspondent on the subject of Canadian finances, and it appears that the Dominion Government, by way of loans which have been converted into subsidies, and by subscriptions for shares and subsidies direct, have expended 200,000,000 dollars, or about £40,000,000. An Honorable Member. - On the iron industry ? 14810 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - No; on general subsidies, mainly on railway construction, waterways, and so forth. The provincial Governments of Canada have expended £6,600,000 in this direction, and the municipalities £3,600,000, or a total of £50,000,000, and this is in addition to other concessions. In connexion with railway construction the Canadian Government, besides giving monetary assistance in the way of enormous subsidies, has given something like 50,000,000 acres of land to private companies in order to encourage and promote the construction of railways. The article says - The St. Lawrence water route, from the Great Lakes to Montreal and Quebec, has cost the Canadian taxpayer 100,000,000 dollars; and there are several other works in projection which will cost enormous sums of money. The article mentions these facts as showing the abuses that may arise under the bonus-giving system. It points out that subsidies have been given for the extension of these facilities on the ground of public services and advantages, and that the private companies have controlled the works in their own special interest, so that the communities affected have asked for the construction of opposition lines for the purpose of getting a "fair deal " by the roundabout method of competition. The Dominion Government are asked to subsidize the construction of those opposition lines, or to spend money in their construction. This must be admitted to be a wasteful expenditure, which would have been avoided if the Canadian Government had followed the wiser and more enlightened System adopted in Australia of constructing lines of railway by the State and running them in the public interest. The article in the Economist goes on to say that- The other day the New Brunswick Legislature was only just prevented from guaranteeing the bonds of a railway several years old, which had been hawked about for sale since 1897, the object being to benefit certain speculators. Then it goes on to refer to a matter which should receive the serious attention of this committee and of the Government, and points out that the system of granting bonuses has had a demoralizing influence upon the political life of Canada. It has introduced a system of log-rolling, of watering stocks, and so forth. Perhaps I cannot do better than quote a short paragraph dealing with this particular phase in the words of the writer : - It is scarcely necessary to say that a good deal of corruption in Dominion, provincial, and municipal affairs is engendered by this system. The subsidy is almost always ' ' milked " by the politicians who grant it, while the contractor, whose profit comes from construction, and sometimes, too, by handling the bonds, takes care of those, in or out of Parliament, who may be disposed to question the wisdom of developing the country in this fashion. It is only right to add, however, that the best men on both sides of politics would like to see the whole business abandoned. Unfortunately, the promoters and contractors have made a great many people believe that subsidies are necessary to enable us to keep step in material advancement with the United States, an argument which every census shows to be fallacious, and which at best is merely saying that it is right to do evil that good may come. Unfortunately our information on Canadian matters has hitherto been very limited, even though the Dominion is part of the great British Empire to which we belong. I trust that the tendency of drawing all parts of the Empire together will have such an influence that in the near future we shall know very much more of Canada than has been the case in the past, and that Canada will know more of us. The article I have quoted seems to me to indicate grave reasons why we should enter upon this system of granting bonuses to private companies only with a great deal of care, and that we should at least have sufficient information to indicate what are the dangers to be avoided, and how best to safeguard the public expenditure under the policy to which we are asked to commit the Commonwealth. I intend strongly to oppose the Government in the proposal now submitted, and to endeavour to have the Bill passed in the form in which it was amended at the instance of the honorable member for Bland. That is not unreasonable. If the Bill be so passed it will give an incentive to those States that like the idea of working their iron deposits to set to work in that direction, and if they are unsuccessful no great harm will have been done. I know that on the Opposition side of the Chamber there are some honorable members who. are altogether opposed to the granting of bonuses, and who believe that if an industry is to be left to private enterprise at all, it should be left to it entirely. Some of those who voted for the proposal of the honorable member for Bland felt that if it comes to be a question of choosing between bonuses to private enterprise, or to the States Governments, they would prefer to leave the matter under the control of the Governments. But I understand that some of those honorable members are now inclined to question the wisdom of that course. I want them fairly to face this phase of the matter - which do they prefer, bonuses to private individuals without restriction as set out in this Bill, or bonuses to the States Governments? If they prefer the method of granting bonuses to the States Governments they should, even though they would prefer to have no bonuses whatever, stand by the vote they previously gave. I venture to prophesy that if they go back upon their former vote, the alternative course will be carried whether they like it or not. Mr. HIGGINS(Northern Melbourne).It is lamentable that we should be coming to a dead-lock with regard to this measure, considering the very small line of demarcation between the views of honorable members, and the fact that the vast importance of the iron industry is generally recognised. It is evident from the remarks of the last speaker that he recognises the iron industry to be a parent industry, one from which other industries branch, on which other industries lean, and which will give work and new resources to the people of Australia for a long time to come. Upon that point there is a general agreement; and I think also that there is a large majority in the House who would like to see so valuable and so cardinal an industry in the hands of the State. They recognise that it is not safe, in the interests of the people, to leave such an industry in the hands of private enterprise. I, at all events, am one of those who, rightly or wrongly, believe that. But although I may not see my way to the State taking up the matter at the present time, I think it would be lamentable if the iron industry were not started. I do not think it will be started by a State Government. I should like, therefore, to make a suggestion- that we should insert a clause in the Bill to the effect that, if bonuses be granted to any private company or firm, there shall be an option for the State to take over the industry at a valuation to be fixed, upon giving a certain notice. 14812 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - A good method of putting difficulties in the way of the State ever doing the work ! 14812 KHC Northern Melbourne PROT 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - Nothing of the sort. It would still be open to a State to start the industry. 14812 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - An honorable member who believes in the State engaging in the industry should vote straight in that direction. 14812 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - Each one is entitled to his own view. But there is this point to be considered - that the State is not a good pioneer of industry. Nearly all industries are pioneered by private enterprise. The selectors in the back-blocks made rough roads for their own purposes in the first instance. You also find the selectors establishing their own temporary post-offices. It is private enterprise that often erects the first schools, and so with nearly all the other requisites of civilized life. After private enterprise has established these things, the State comes along and puts them in order. 14812 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The State pioneered the railways in Australia. 14812 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - I am not arguing against the honorable member's principle. 14812 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - Is the honorable and learned member speaking on behalf of the Government ? 14812 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - The honorable member for Macquarie, from his official position upon the opposition side of the Chamber, no doubt knows whether the Government is in favour of this proposal or not. But it does not concern me whether or not the Government is. I am. 14812 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The honorable and learned member took up a similar position for the Government in regard to the GovernorGeneral's allowances. 14812 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - I do not know what the Governor-General has to do with iron ore. I think it would be an advantage to the particular State of the Commonwealth which took up this industry if the pioneering work were done by private enterprise. It is like the case of the shark and the pilot fish. The pilot fish comes along and nibbles at a piece of meat, and then the shark - if I may compare the State to the shark - puts in an appearance, drives the pilot fish away, and takes the food. 14812 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Does the honorable and learned member think that the iron industry would be run by business men or philanthropists ? 14812 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - By business men. I recognise that men would not take up an industry unless they hoped to make money out of it. Honorable members will perhaps recollect that I suggested an alteration in one of the clauses, to the effect that any company or body of persons who obtained the bonus should do so subject to certain terms with regard to the wages and hours and conditions of labour of its employés. I think that there might also be a Specific provision in the Bill to the effect that no bonus shall be paid to any company or persons except upon the condition that a State may buy them out at a valuation to be settled by arbitration, and upon a basis which has yet to be thought out. The pioneering work would then be done by private profit-seekers, and in the course of a few years, when the States Governments had become more amenable to reason, as I hope they will be, we should be able to compel them to take over the industry and to work it upon lines which experience might dictate. In our present financial system it would not be advisable for a State to enter into a huge enterprise of this kind. It would be like entering into an unknown country. Let the country first be explored and tested. There is a great advantage in giving a bonus. If we give a bonus we know exactly how much we are spending ; we know what we can afford to lose, and we have no care, no worry, and no responsibility. But if a State should be the first to enter upon the establishment of the iron industry, it would have to work a most difficult undertaking under unknown conditions. I would not presume to say how far the industry would succeed in Australia for some years ; having regard to the conditions operating in America, and in Canada, particularly, I would not say how far it might not be undercut from outside. Until private enterprise has clone the exploration work, I should not like to see any State enter into a business which might involve a great many incidental calls upon the public purse. I think it is a dangerous thing. I .say this hoping, at the same time, that in the course of a few years the business will be carried on by one of the States. I should much prefer it to be conducted by the Commonwealth than by any of the individual States, but that cannot be done. 14813 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Why not ? 14813 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - Because the Constitution will not allow it. 14813 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - We were told in New South Wales that the Constitution could be amended in the easiest possible manner. I admit that the honorable and learned member did not say so. , 14813 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - That is the old story. We have to deal with existing facts and make the best of what I might call a bad job. The next best thing to the establishment of the industry by the Commonwealth is that it should be taken up by one of the States, and a State would enter upon it to the greatest advantage at a time when it could profit by the experience of the private profit-seeker. I have never known an industry to be taken up by the State which had not previously been tested by private profit-seekers. The State often fails, but when it does succeed, it succeeds always in cases in which it has followed the experience of the private profit-seeker. With all respect to the honorable member for Bland, I think that those who are advocating the immediate thrusting of the iron industry into the control of the State are the enemies of the State working of monopolies. This is a monopolistic industry, but it is a mistake to desire the States to set the ball rolling. We cannot get the State to work with its cumbrous machinery until we have had the experience of men who commence operations for the mere purpose of profit. 14813 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The railways were new when the State took them up here. 14813 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - That is a very different thing, but we had private railways in Victoria. The first railway in Victoria was constructed by private enterprise. 14813 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - I am informed that the first line constructed in Victoria was that running from Melbourne to Williamstown, and that it was built bv the State. 14813 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - We had the Hobson's Bay line, and also the Geelong to Melbourne railway was built by a private company. All that I am putting is that in view of the tremendous movements to control the output of iron and rails in America and elsewhere, it is impossible. for us to foresee how the iron industry will succeed here. There are men who are willing to risk their capital in it, provided that they have a chance of making reasonable profits. 14813 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Would they enter upon it with the certainty that their works would be taken from them if they established them successfully ? 14813 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr HIGGINS - That is a mere question affecting the conditions to be imposed. I think the honorable member is quite right in saying that a man who believed it possible that if he successful established an industry it would be taken from him, would be chary in entering upon it. But if we provide conditions which will show those who may think of entering upon the industry that they will not. be robbed of the fruits of their labours, they will be far more likely to take it up. It is foi- this reason that I still adhere to the view which I took when the committee last divided upon this question, and I shall certainly vote for the excision of the proviso. I voted on a former occasion for a modified excision of the words, but that proposal was not accepted. I should still vote for it if it were proposed, but it is not. A compromise has been suggested by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports that no bonus should be paid to any private company or individual for a period of two years, in order that the States might have time to take up the industry. That proposition was not accepted. I should be willing, although with regret, to adopt it. I prefer to see the proviso omitted, so as to leave the industry to private enterprise in the first instance, and when that had done the pioneer work, to enable a State to take it up. 14814 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I have listened with some surprise to the peculiar proposition for encouraging the iron industry, which has been made by the honorable and learned member for Northern Melbourne. His proposal is that a bonus of £250,000 shall be given to private individuals. 14814 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr Higgins - That is not so. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON -j-The proposal is, I suppose, that the Bill should be passed, as the Minister desires, in a shape providing for a bonus of £250,000 to be paid' to private individuals who enter upon the iron industry, and that at some period subsequent 'to the payment of that bonus a State should take up the industry. Presumably the honorable and learned member proposes that the State shall take it up only if it is a success. If it is a failure, the State is carefully to-let it alone. If the honorable and learned member's proposal were carried out it would mean that private individuals would be induced to establish the industry by their own enterprise and perhaps at considerable loss, the State contributing £250,000 to make good that loss. But as soon as they had proved that the industry could be successfully carried on the State would say to them - "We will take your property, work it ourselves, and annex the profits." 14814 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr Higgins - At a fair valuation. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Take it, I presume, on payment for the works and land. Any one who enters upon such an industry does not look to the profits of the first few years to recoup him. He looks to their continuance for an indefinite period - to the accumulated profits for his return. 14814 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - We should have to recompense them accordingly. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Of course. If the honorable and learned member means that on taking over the works the State should pay the owners a sum representing not merely the money expended upon them and 10 pei' cent, as compensation for resumption, but an amount based upon the anticipated profits for a considerable number of years, I do not think it would be a good thing for the State to entertain. On the other hand, if a State could take over the property on paying merely an additional 10 per cent, for resumption, surely it would be impossible to find any individual so simple as to enter into the industry. 14814 KHC 0 0 HIGGINS, Henry Mr Higgins - The honorable member's argument is against all option to purchase. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - If it is desired to establish the iron industry it cannot be well done with an option to purchase. 14814 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Indeed it can. Nearly every Act authorizing the construction of a private railway Or tramway gives to the Government or local authority the right to purchase it after a certain time. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - After a considerable number of years. 14814 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - That is so ; but I do not understand that the suggestion here is that it should be done at once. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - There is far more trouble in establishing an iron industry than in constructing a railway or a tramway. 14814 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Regulations could deal with question of terms. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I suppose the Minister is favorable to this proposal, as he is defending it 1 14814 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - r favour anything which asks fora fair protection of the State. 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - We are beginning to see that this proposal is made under the wing of the Government. If the Minister anticipates starting an iron industry under these conditions, I am very much afraid that he will be disappointed. I was rather amused at his touching references to his belief in a State iron industry, and his regret that no State had seen fit to undertake its establishment. He says that a month ago that he hoped, and fervently believed, that some State might embark in this enterprise, and for that reason he accepted with delight the amendment which he now resists. 14814 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I did not say anything of the sort. Considering that I divided against the amendment, how could I have accepted it with delight? 14814 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - That is what the members of the committee understood. The Minister read the refusals of the States almost with tears in his eyes; and it is very astonishing that he resisted the proposal previously, and is resisting it to-day. He also spoke very touchingly, and no doubt truly, as to the great importance of the iron industry. But what does his proposal mean ? Does it recognise the importance of the iron I industry 1 It says that this large industry I can be established by giving a bonus of £250,000, and that it will not be created, whatever its prospects may be, without that gift. It is too big an industry to be affected by the offer of that bonus. If there is a profitable outlet for the enterprise, not for the first 'few years, but during the- course of many years - if investors can be convinced in that respect - they will not wait for a bonus of £250,000. If no profitable outlook is promised, no such sum will induce them legitimately to embark in the enterprise. If they do, it will be done simply in order to get hold of' that £250,000. They will float some concern on the markets of the world where the facts are not so well known as they may be to themselves, with the object of annexing the bonus, and the premium which will attach to flotation, owing to the gift of the bonus, and leave the company thus established to its fate. Either the bonus is not sufficient to induce the starting of the industry unless otherwise it can be a success, or the Minister means at a subsequent period to propose an additional bonus or duty if it is not successfully established. The Minister has .given a glowing picture of the growth of the iron industry in Canada, but what are the facts? Before the bonus was given Canada manufactured 36 per cent, of her own requirements in iron. What has been the result since the bonus was -given? Further bonuses have been asked for, higher duties have been requested, and to-day not a paltry £250,000, but millions are required to support this industry, which is said to have been so thoroughly established by the bonus system. Surely the Minister was unfortunate when he went to Canada for an example to us. Everything which is feared here has occurred there, and some of us feel that the course of embarking in this giving of bonuses in connexion with the iron industry will be attended with the same objectionable results as have occurred in Canada. In this case the Minister proposes to impose protective duties after the cessation of the bonus. It is not the bonus itself only that we have to deal with. Even under the Ministerial proposal there are to follow protective duties, which, we may feel certain, will not stand at the moderate level at which they are proposed, if the industry demands higher ones. Having brought into existence this bantling, it has to be supported at all hazards. It must be brought to manhood if possible, and the State will be asked to do it. 14815 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - The duties will be as high as necessity demands, and as low as circumstances permit. 14815 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Here is a candid admission by the honorable member. We know what demands we had in other directions when we were framing the Tariff. But what are- the demands likely to be in connexion with the iron industry ? I am against the giving of any bonuses. I am asked to vote to give a bonus to a State. How can I legitimately and consistently give such a vote, especially as I am more opposed to a bonus being offered to fi State than to its being thrown open for the acceptance- of all 1 A strong objection to this assistance to industries is that it creates an opportunity to levy taxation from the people. Under a bonus, without coming duties, that cannot be done, I admit, to the same extent as can be done under .protective duties. In this case protective duties are to follow, whether a State or a private person takes up the industry and those duties rise with the necessity. My objection, and that of other free-traders who think with me, to that is that it creates an opportunity for taxation being drawn from the people of the State, or if that opportunity does not exist, because the duty is not sufficiently high to exclude competition by the outside world, then every industry, and every other consumer of its product is made to pay for the support of the producers. That is the position, and it is not relieved because the bonus is given to a State ; in fact, it is intensified. If a State establishes the industry, and it cannot compete easily with the outside world, it will get what it demands, to enable the continuance of the competition with the outside world. There will be a tax, levied on the consumers of the material. 14815 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - A State can pull less strings than a private syndicate in that connexion. 14815 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I do not say that a. State would endeavour to get all the profits which a duty, if too high, would allow. 14815 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - As regards getting an increased bonus, or an increased duty, a private enterprise syndicate will pull more strings 'than a State can do. 14815 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I believe that the honorable member is right in that respect, Only I think that the State would have more weight in the getting of the help. If the State is to do outside business, apart from meeting its own requirements, it will demand, and probably will get, this higher duty, which will handicap the other industries of the Commonwealth, because pf the prices which will have to be paid for the material it produces. As regards what it uses in its own departments - and that represents a very large proportion of the total consumption - even if . it costs 50 per cent, more than the article could be imported for, the State will use the product of its industry, and ' will make the people at large pay the extra prices, and thus support all those engaged in its production. That I consider is a national loss. Holding that opinion I cannot depart from my objection to vote for a bonus to a State. A.t the present stage there is really no question of a State industry versus a private industry. Any State, if it likes, can start an iron industry to-morrow. 14816 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - It could be done under private enterprise also. 14816 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Under private enterprise also. 14816 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - How about the£250,000? 14816 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Unless it is intended ss a means of getting something immediately by the flotation of a company which the company would have no light to get, scattered over an industry like the iron industry, which should run through the ages, £250,000 is a mere nothing. If the industry would not start without the bonus, it would not start with it. If the industry will start without the bonus, and it will if the opportunity is there, then it should not be given. Surely no State needs a bonus of £250,000 ? What « farce to offer that sum to the States ! Cannot the poorest and the weakest of the States find £250,000? Tasmania could raise that sum to-morrow if she wanted it, and so could any other State in the Commonwealth. From that aspect, the whole thing is ridiculous. There is nothing that may be put into this cr any Bill which will prevent any State, if it wishes, from embarking in the iron industry. For that reason also I do not see my way to support the giving of a bonus to the States. Then we . have this other question - although it is a most important one, the Minister has given us no information - how will it affect our financial position ? If we have to provide £100,000 a year for the payment of these bonuses, and if we are going, as the House has expressed its desire' that we should, to pay out of revenue much which hitherto has been paid out of loan account, where are we to get this sum of £100,000 a year from? Are we to raise £400,000 or £500,000 in order to provide for it ? If not, we should have some indication from Ministers regarding ways and means. The Loan Bill has not yet been passed, and may not be, and the Government should be able to tell us how they propose to find the money. In the interests of the industry itself, and of our own financial position, it would be infinitely better for the Ministry to allow this proposal to stand over for the present. The members of the labour party have expressed themselves against giving bonuses to private individuals. 14816 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - No, not all of us. We are all in favour of giving the preference to the States. 14816 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - - -Some of us, including myself, are against giving bonuses to private individuals. 14816 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - So am I, but others are not. 14816 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The honorable member for Bland said yesterday that such a strong feeling existed in New South Wales in favour of the Government establishing the iron industry that, if some agitation were made, the Ministry would probably enter upon the industry before many months were over. If the view of the honorable member is correct, we had better, from his point of view, reject the Bill, and leave the States to take their own course. 14816 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - - Those who favour the establishment of State iron works in New South Wales say that we shall assist them if we pass this Bill. 14816 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - If this Bill were passed, the States Governments would probably not have the same opportunities of establishing the iron industry as would be afforded in the absence of federal legislation. The honorable member for Canobolas was wrong in stating that, if honorable members on this side of the Chamber supported the Government in excising the. provision for bonuses to the States, there was only one way to do it. 14816 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - If the Bill is passed in its present shape it will assist in the establishment of State iron works in New South Wales, because the Government of that State will then be able to obtain assistance from the other States. 14817 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Does the honorable member suppose that a bonus of £250,000 is likely to influence the Government of New South Wales ? That State could raise ten times £250,000 if it desired to establish the iron industry. I intend to vote against bonuses in any form. I shall vote against this clause, and I trust that the Bill will be defeated. I am satisfied that by granting bonuses, either to the States Governments or to private individuals, we shall enter upon a policy the end of which we cannot see. The Commonwealth will be dragged into giving more and more support to any industry that may be created upon such a false basis. I look upon the proposal to grant £250,000 as worse than a scheme involving an outlay of £1,000,000.' If it were proposed to spend the larger sum we might look upon that as ending the matter, but a grant of £250,000 will simply introduce the thin end of the wedge. If the industry were started under that bonus we should have appeals for further assistance made to us within a very short time. We should be asked not to destroy that which we had created, for which the future held out great hopes of prosperity. A bonus of £250,000 would be a mere drop in the ocean. We must not look to the expenditure of a year or two in connexion with such an enterprise, but to an outlay extending over decades. If the opportunity presents itself the iron industry will be established upon : 1sound basis, and under such conditions that those engaged in other industries will not be required to contribute to its support, and consumers will not have to pay more for what they require. The industry will then grow with the progress of the Commonwealth, and may even, by means of an export trade, bring wealth to our shores from other parte of the world. 14817 KUF Darling 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - I listened with great interest to the reason which the Minister gave for asking honorable members to reverse the decision previously arrived at. Although the right honorable gentleman spoke with great earnestness, and stated that he had the most convincing proof of the necessity for restoring the Bill to its original form, the facts adduced by him seemed to me to constitute the strongest arguments against his proposal. The information received from Canada proved that large sums of money had been spent by the Dominion Government, and that the ironworks had greatly increased their output, but, at the same time, we find that those engaged in the enterprise are still crying out for more assistance, and that there is no perceptible end to their demands. There are any number of men who will produce anything in the Commonwealth if the Government will, pay them to do so. The reports quoted by the Minister indicate that there are such dangers connected with the bonus system as should frighten every honorable member. I do not think that the reports from Canada had much to do with the desire of the Government to restore the Bill to its original form. I should be sorry to say that the lobbying which has been going on for some time past had anything to'do with their action ; but the fact that some honorable members have changed their opinion has, no doubt, largely influenced them. They have been relying upon the count of noses rather than upon the figures from Canada. The honorable and learned member for Northern Melbourne made a most extraordinary proposal. He evidently thinks that a heavy loss will be incurred in connexion with the establishment of ironworks. He, therefore, suggests that a handsome- bonus should be granted to induce some one to undertake the experiment, his idea being that the State should, in the event of success, take over the works. Is it likely that the Government will be able to take over the industry unless they pay the firm for any loss which it lias incurred ? Would it not be a great deal safer for the State itself to find the money necessary to embark upon the undertaking ? The party with which I am associated are prepared to stir up public opinion upon this matter in New South Wales if the Bill in its present form becomes law. At the same time, we have just cause of complaint against the Minister' for Trade and Customs. When the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Bland was carried, we accepted his assurance that the Opposition had not succeeded in killing the 'Bill, and that the Government intended to proceed with it. It is a very big strain upon our faith, therefore, to find the Minister now attempting to reverse the decision arrived at by the committee, and it is misleading to the section with which we are associated. The replies received by the Minister from the States Governments are just what might have been expected. But despite the statement of the Premier of New South Wales, I hold that if the Bill passes in its present form he will be unable to resist the pressure of public opinion that will be brought to bear, and will be compelled to embark upon this industry. At the present time, however, he can excuse Government inaction by the plea that he has no assurance that the Bill will pass both Houses of this Parliament. As the honorable member for Bland has pointed out, past experience teaches that the States Governments will never enter upon any large undertaking until they are forced to do so by public opinion. In effect, the proposal of the Minister for Trade and Customs is to borrow money from one set of British capitalists for the purpose of advancing it to another. "We know that syndicates are always ready to secure privileges, which they dispose of to a large 'company, in which they receive a big share. In mining circles these individuals are known as "first robbers." If the industry does not pay they close down the works, and deputations wait upon -the Government pleading for further assistance, either by way of the payment of an increased bonus or the imposition of a higher duty, so that they may put money into their own pockets. Honorable members are practically asked to allow themselves to be used as mere tools for the benefit of a few capitalists in Great Britain. Even if the proposal of the Minister is assented to, we have not the slightest guarantee that the iron industry will be established by private enterprise. This is a question in which the labour party has taken a very keen interest for a considerable time, and I unhesitatingly say that the action of the Minister is calculated to defeat his own wishes. It i§ all very well to argue that none of the States Governments will embark upon this industry. But I would point out that New South Wales has a sufficient surplus income to engage in it even without any artificial aid. I venture to say that, if the Bill be carried in its present form, within a year or two one of the States will nationalize the industry. 14818 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The Government offered to confine the Bill to the* States Govern ments for two years, but the party to which the honorable member belongs would not agree to the proposal. Mr. SPENCE.Syndicators do not care twopence whether or not the iron industry becomes established so long, as they can attack somebody's pockets ; There is always something rotten associated with appeals to the Government to aid private enterprise: The whole principle is a bad one. There is absolutely no justification for offering this- bonus at such an early stage in our federal history. At the present time we have not a penny to spare. We cannot get a telephone wire put across a street, at a coat of- 30s., 'because there is no money available, and yet it is proposed to offer private individuals £320,000 to engage in these industries. I do not like the look of this proposal, and I protest against the lobbying which has been going on within the precincts of this House.' We had. enough of that in connexion with the Tariff proposals. If only a man and a boy are engaged in an industry they can get almost anything for which they choose to ask from this Government. Of course lobbyists do not worry me, because my views upon this question are well known. Since I have occupied a seat in this Parliament I have been astonished to find prominent labour men interviewing honorable members on behalf of the British capitalist. To what is- the country coming when we witness that sort of thing? The time seems to be rapidly approaching, when we shall have to frame a standing order for the purpose of- preventing lobbying. When I see honorable members- professing certain principles- and deliberately placing, obstacles in the way of the realization of those principles, there is a big strain on my belief in their sincerity. The honorable member for North , Sydney, and others- who think with him, had better be careful or they will fail to accomplish the object they have in view. There are many who believe in the bonus system, and many who are opposed to it, and the voting will be somewhat mixed ; but I sincerely hope the committee will adhere to the previous decision. If the States fail to take the matter up" there will always be the opportunity for the Government to carry out their desire to encourage private enterprise. No doubt we have all received the circular to which reference, has already been made., and from the statements therein we can see that the drift in Canada is in the direction of monopoly. In Australia it is clear there would be a monopoly; practically, from the start ; and that means- that the Government would give away money which it had no right to give away, and the country would ultimately suffer. To resume the industry at some future time would prove a most costly and stupid method. It is idle to speak of experiment in connexion with one of the oldest industries in the world ; and the Government would be able to employ experts with as much or more ease than could any private company. We have the United States, England, and Canada, from which to select men of experience, and they would more readily work for a Government than for corporations who are not always the most satisfying of employers. Experiments in the iron industry have already been made elsewhere, and scientists could easily apply, at a comparatively trifling cost, any tests which might appear necessary. 14819 KQU Melbourne 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - The honorable member for Darling seems to have very great faith in State control, but he cannot have looked at the statistics which show the result of the management of Government railways and tramways. In Australia there are no Government tramways or railways which would not pay much better in the hands of private individuals. 14819 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - The Sydney tramways pay better than do the private tramways in Melbourne. 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - The average return from the Australian railways is 3.21 per cent., but the dividends paid by the English companies and by companies in other parts of the world are much higher. The returns of the tramways in Sydney are 3.56 per cent., whereas in Brisbane, where there is a much smaller population of 120,000, private tramways return three or four times as much. 14819 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - I can give many instances in which tramways have been taken over by municipalities, and have paid much better than they did in private hands. 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - The honorable member is dealing with tramways in the old country. In Australia there will be a sad state of affairs when we find State socialism creeping in and taking control of all enterprises, and especially an enterprise like the iron industry. The honorable member for North Sydney referred to iron manufacture in Canada prior to the granting of the bonuses, but he said nothing about the increase in the export of iron from that country. In 1892 the export of pig-iron from Canada was only 3 tons, whereas in 1901 it was 5,623 tons, and in the first eight months of the present financial year it reached the enormous figure of 68,669 tons, valued at 661,000 dollars. The increase of over 60,000 tons in eight months is, I contend, entirely due to the bonus. 14819 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Does that not apply to the sugar industry on the continent ? 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - I dare say it does. 14819 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - But all those in Australia who are interested in the sugar industry are. opposed to the continental bonuses. 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - That is because those interested in the sugar industry desire to look after themselves. In Queensland we had a very good example of the effect of rejecting a proposal for granting what was equal to a bonus. In 1883 the Government of the State proposed to arrange for the construction of a transcontinental railway on the land-grant system ; but the idea was so strongly opposed by the combination of pastoralists and the labour party that the Government went out of office. 14819 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - The sum of £220,000 was ready to be paid in bribes directly the agreement was signed. 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - If that railway had been, built in 1883, thousands of head of stock in Queensland would have been saved during the drought ; and the public of that State after twenty years have turned round and granted a concession to a Scotch syndicate to build a similar railway, feeling that in the present state of the finances, the Government are not able to undertake the enterprise. That is an instance which should be seriously considered in connexion with the Bill before us. I do not say that the State should not have the right to acquire any ironworks which maybe erected. In granting any concession, the State should reserve the right to come in at the expiration of some period and purchase- 14819 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - From that point of view, the honorable member ought to vote against the proposal of the Government. 14819 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - I shall not vote against the proposal of the Government, but I should not object to vote for such a period being allowed as to insure that those who start the works will be recouped for losses which will necessarily occur at the commencement of a venture of this nature. It would be ridiculous, however, to compel a company to sell to the Government at an advance of 10 per cent. at the end of, perhaps, four or five years, just when the works were beginning to pay, after losses had been incurred. Personally, I should rather see the Bill carried as now proposed, because its scope can be broadened at any time to enable the Government to step in and purchase. While I should not like to see the Bill lost because a provision of that kind was not inserted, still I prefer that it should not be inserted now. Frequent reference has been made by the honorable member for Darling to the necessity which has arisen for further assistance to the Canadian iron industry; but surely that honorable member has not looked carefully at the telegrams which have appeared in the press. The Government of Canada have seen that American combinations are likely to get control of the shipping between Canada and Great Britain, and, as would be done here in similar circumstances, it has been decided to contribute a bonus of £1,000,000, and give twenty years' exemption from wharfage and other charges in order to retain communication with the old country. The object is not to bolster up the iron industry, but to retain the present growing trade. Mr.Spence.- Where is the difference to the taxpayer? 14820 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - It is certainly to the advantage of the taxpayer to keep trade, the loss of which would entail still heavier taxation. 14820 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - But the Americans undersell the Canadians at a loss. 14820 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - It is sometimes an advantage to sell at a loss. It appears to me that honorable members of the Opposition are in a difficulty. If those who are against bonuses vote for the retention of the amendment of the honorable member for Bland, they become State socialists, or, at any rate, will vote for what is State socialism, and I hardly think that the majority of those honorable members would care to be identified with that movement. 14820 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - The honorable member is prepared for State socialism, seeing that he is willing to give power to the Government to take the works over. 14820 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - I have no objection to the Government taking the works over if necessity arises ; but the honorable member for Bland contends that there should be no possibility of private enterprise. As I have said, I prefer that any provision as to purchase by the State should be omitted, but rather than see the industry thrown back as railway enterprise was in Queensland, I am prepared to accept the measure with a clause to that effect. I shall support the Government proposal. 14820 KYD South Australia 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The question is not one of private enterprise versus State control, but whether we ought, as a Parliament, to assist private enterprise to the extent of a quarter of a million, and thus enable a syndicate to float a company. We have had a varied experience of such concessions, and I look on this as one of the most serious proposals of the kind which ever emanated from a Government. I am astonished to find the Minister for Trade and Customs fighting for the Bill, because hitherto I have recognised him as one who believed thoroughly in State control of large enterprises which come within the category of monopolies. The bonus will not be claimed by more than two companies, who will very soon be able to so arrange matters as to avoid competition. 14820 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - In Canada there are eight companies. 14820 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston -There are many more than eight companies in Canada. 14820 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The honorable member for Melbourne is a thorough believer in private enterprise, but we have had some very startling experience of State concessions, of which he knows something. This offer of £250,000 will enable a syndicate to appeal to British capitalists. 14820 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - It is not an offer of £250,000, but an offer of 12s. a ton. 14820 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The maximum sum is £250,000, which will enable a syndicate to call in the aid of British capitalists and distinguished gentlemen in fixing up a very nice prospectus. A number of free shares will be given to those gentlemen, and when the company is started these shares, as is frequently done, will be unloaded on an unsuspecting public. When the enterprise collapses the public will have the shares, and the other people will have the money. Is it a proper thing for this Parliament to assist people to do that sort of thing? It has been done in Queensland and in other places several times. What experience have we had of private enterprise in South Australia recently? The Minister for Trade and Customs knows how much it was against his wish that the streets of Adelaide were given over to certain persons for the purpose of constructing privately- owned tramways. We were told that the enterprise would lead to opening up new avenues of work for the unemployed. Those who opposed the scheme were told that it was cruel to those who were out of work to offer opposition to the benevolent men who intended to spend half-a-million of money straight away upon the construction of the tramway system. Hundreds of the working classes supported the scheme, because they thought it meant more work for them. But what is the position today? The working classes have not had a penny out of it. Having secured the concession, the promoters are hawking it about in England for the purpose of promoting a company. It is more than three years since these promoters said that they had the capital, and that everything was ready to commence operations. All they wanted was the legislation to permit of the work being done. But all they have done up to the present has been to have a few loads of stone broken. The latest information we have is that one of the principals is drawing up elaborate plans, which are to be submitted to English investors. In the mean time no extra work has been found for the unemployed, and there is no guarantee that any will be found. What this Parliament is now asked to do is to sanction the giving of £250,000 by way of bonuses at the rate of 1 2s. a ton for the production of pig-iron. That will be a great inducement for company promoters to parcel out shares as they have done on many occasions for their own benefit. So many free shares will be allotted, and so many to the promoters. Look at what has been done at Chillagoe. 14821 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - Who gets the free shares ? 14821 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - Certainly not the working man. At Chillagoe, where a big concession was granted, I venture to say that the people to-day rue that the claim was ever taken in hand. 14821 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - Is that the kind of private enterprise that was referred to by the honorable member for Melbourne? 14821 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I do not want to refer to anything of a personal character in connexion with the matter, but the circumstances in regard to Chillagoe are well known to Victorians, who are acquainted with the scathing references that appeared in the press a little while ago. 14821 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - Is there not a difference between concessions in return for promises and payment for work done? In this case no company would receive payment until they had done the work. Mr.POYNTON.- As far as the actual payment is concerned, I agree that it would be possible to get money from the English public, and afterwards the promoters could sell out and leave the public with so much waste paper. It would be possible to get capital from the English public for any reasonable proposal by showing that the promoters have a guarantee from the Government of a bonus of 12s. a ton, or £250,000 as a maximum. That is a big lever to assist any one who goes to the English capitalist for money. I do not know why there should be such a hurry about this matter. The proposal was never put before the electors in a concrete form. They were never told that Parliament was to be asked tovote£250,000 of the taxpayers'money for such a purpose. The subject was not mentioned in the Governor-General's speech. Why should the matter not be allowed to stand over until the people have a chance of expressing their opinions about it? In less than eighteen months there will be a general election, when every constituency throughout the Commonwealth will have an opportunity to say whether it favours giving £250,000 to private enterprise for the purpose of carrying on the iron industry, or whether it is in favour of the States undertaking the work themselves. We are in the position of not knowing exactly where we are in regard to our finances. The Loan Bill has, been laid aside. A number of works that used to be undertaken by the States out of loan money are now to be paid for out of revenue. We also know that the revenue of some of the States is not as buoyant as we should like it to be. The result is that some of the States, in consequence of the action of this Parliament, will suffer a loss of revenue. In South Australia there has been a serious loss of revenue through the shrinkage of the railway receipts. I do not wish to be a croaker, but we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that, in consequence of the drought and from other causes, this country has avery dark outlook before it. There has never been a time when the pinch was so serious as it is just now, and as it probably will be during the next twelve months. The revenue of the Commonwealth from customs and excise must be materially affected. In face of these facts, the Minister will be wise to allow the matter to stand over until after the next general election. In the meantime, if any of the States wish to undertake iron works they can do so. At present the States have had no chance to express their opinion adequately. It is true that the Minister has read letters showing that some of the States do not intend to embark upon such an enterprise, but there are often changes of opinion in connexion with such matters. There is no one in this House who is more sincere in regard to the State undertaking works than is the Minister for Trade and Customs. He has taken strong action in regard to the nationalization of works in South Australia. Therefore, I cannot understand why he is so anxious that private enterprise should undertake the iron industry, which comes within the category of works that ought to be controlled by the State. In any case, the manufacture of iron in this Commonwealth must be a monopoly. 14822 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - How does the honorable member define monopoly in this connexion? 14822 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I do not think that more than a couple of such works will be started in any case, and the tendency will be for the two companies not to compete against each other. If they are of equal strength, they will soon arrive at an agreement ; and if one company is stronger than the other, the weaker one will have to go down. 14822 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - Will not the monopoly position be equally applicable to any one State that undertakes the work ? What is to prevent one State from squeezing the rest of the States of the Commonwealth? 14822 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The difference is that a State would not work for the purpose of earning dividends on watered shares. In conclusion, I would remind the Minister of the somewhat chequered career of the Bill. If it had not been for the casting vote of Mr. Speaker the measure would have been referred to a select committee. That is very striking evidence that the House is very much divided upon the question whether the industry should be controlled by the State or private enterprise subsidized in the way proposed. Since then we have had a series of discussions on the Bill, and opinion is apparently almost equally divided in regard to whether now is the proper time to proceed with the project. In view of all these circumstances, I think the Minister would do well to allow the Bill to go to a select committee. If it were possible for an amendment now to be tabled to refer to a select committee the whole question of what the undertaking should be, I should vote for it in preference to allowing the bonus to be paid as proposed by the Government. If the Minister persists in dividing the committee on the Bill as it stands, without giving us any information of what further proposal he has to bring forward, I shall certainly vote as before for the retention of the proviso inserted by the honorable member for Bland. 14822 KRO Gippsland PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - Honorable members will remember that when the Bill was last before us, I was one of those who, whilst they could not see their way to vote against it, as they were deeply impressed with the importance of establishing the industry, thought that the Government should have withheld the proposal until they were prepared to submit fuller particulars to Parliament, to enable us to deal with it in the light of the fullest information. The clause now before us proposes that the industry shall be a State monopoly, and I am afraid some honorable members may not have weighed fully what the consequences would be if it were carried. I am as favorably disposed towards the establishment of the industry by the State as is any honorable member, and I should be very pleased indeed to see it taken up by one of the States. But if we pass the Bill in its present form, and the industry is not taken, up by any of the States' Governments - as I believe it will not be - the effect will be to shut out private enterprise altogether. 14822 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - It would give notice of a powerful competitor. 14822 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - There would be the possibility not only of a powerful competitor against any private enterprise, but of a State as a competitor assisted by a bonus. Several persons who are interested in the iron industry have assured me that not one shilling would be invested in it while this provision remained. I can understand the attitude of those honorable members who, upon principle, are opposed to bonuses, but nevertheless may be very favorable to the establishment of the industry by private enterprise. That is a consistent attitude to adopt, but I would point out that the retention of the proviso in this clause would shut out the possibility of private enterprise. Private individuals would recognise at once the seriousness of embarking their capital in the industry, when there was a prospect of a State Government, assisted by a large Government bonus, entering into competition with them. 14823 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - That is an argument that the industry would be a monopoly. 14823 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - It has nothing to do with the question of monopoly. If my honorable friend were a member of a private company which proposed to invest several hundred thousand pounds in the industry, he would surely object to the adoption of that course if he believed that the Government of any State, supported by a Government bonus, was likely to enter into competition with it. A private company would be placed at such a disadvantage that it would not be likely to enter upon the work. I would rather see the Bill lost than passed with this proviso in it, because I believe it would have the effect of effectually shutting out private enterprise. I would ask those honorable members who are opposed to the payment of a bonus in any shape or form, but who are friendly to the establishment of the industry by private enterprise to give that aspect of the case careful consideration. It was very strongly impressed upon me by gentlemen who are interested in this industry that they would not invest one shilling of their capital in it if the measure were placed upon the statute-book in its present form. Mr.FOWLER (Perth).- There are two aspects of this subject for which I am unable to find any satisfactory explanation in my own mind, nor have I obtained it from any honorable member. In the first place, I cannot understand the reason for the haste shown by the Minister in charge of the Bill. I cannot see any great national calamity behind the possibility that this project may be set aside for a little while until we see how we stand financially. I apprehend that we have been doing fairly well in obtaining our supplies of iron from the cheapest markets of the world, and while I should certainly like to see the industry established in Australia, I am not so foolish as to imagine that it could be entered upon either by private individuals or by any State without a careful scrutiny of all the circumstances, and on the very best consideration from an expert and financial point of view was likely to prove successful. I can understand that certain gentlemen who have been perambulating about a part of this building which is supposed to be set apart for the use of honorable members should regard this matter as an urgent one. A sum of £250,000 is not to be sneezed at in these times, and if they could manage to impress the capitalists of the world of the advantage of doing something to acquire that sum the result would be sufficient to justify any exertion which they might have put forth. The second difficulty which I have is in regard to the position taken up by many honorable members, who, while professing a great admiration for a certain principle - in this case the organization of the industry upon a State or Commonwealth basis - are prepared to put aside that principle because they do not think it possible forthwith to carry it into effect. It is a position worthy of an Australian aboriginal or a Hottentot, that men professing to be statesmen should be so destitute of patience and foresight that, for the sake of a. temporary advantage, they are willing to allow a condition of things to be established in Australia for all time, which will mean that the heritage of the people of the country has been given away for a mess of pottage. The position taken up by such honorable members is analogous to the lack of foresight shown by the most degraded savages on the face of the earth, who if they obtain a meal to-day will gorge themselves to repletion without any thought of to-morrow. We are told by the Minister for Trade and Customs that he wishes to secure employment to the workers of the Commonwealth. He is so anxious about that matter, that he is prepared to hand over one of our great national resources to the handful of energetic gentlemen with whom we have become so familiar during the last week or two. The Minister must be aware of the circumstances which have made a lack of employment so common throughout almost the whole of Australia. He must recognise that it is because the natural resources of the country, to a very large extent, have been secured - in many cases by means which will not bear investigation - by a handful of people, and that those people entrenched behind the laws of the various States are able to utilize these resources in a way detrimental to the welfare of the community. On the face of it, it is absolutely preposterous that there should be this lack of employment on an immense continent so thinly populated as this is ; but, because of it, we are asked to take another step in the same direction. I exceedingly regret that such a number of enthusiastic supporters of the principle of State socialism are prepared to put it aside upon the pitiful excuses that we have heard both to-day and last night. I am reminded that not very long ago the Government sought permission to raise a loan, to enable them to carry out public works which would give a vast amount of employment. The sum which they are prepared to throw at the heads of these syndicators represents about one-half of what they desired to borrow for Government works. If they would reconsider the matter, and expend this amount in improving the telephonic service, and in carrying out other works, they would obviate to a very large extent the unemployed difficulty in several of our large centres. The honorable member for North Sydney wished us to understand that, as a rule, State industries were to some extent a tax on the general community, inasmuch as they were not prepared to market their product on a commercial basis. 14824 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - I said that a bonus, if it encouraged a State to embark in the industry, might cause a heavier taxation of the people than would be the case if a private person did, because it would always use its own product no matter what the cost might be. 14824 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - Amongst persons who have not given the subject of the nationalization and municipalization of industries very much attention, it is a common impression that these are expensive luxuries, and the honorable member for Melbourne was very emphatic on that point as regards railways and other matters. Any one who takes the trouble to consult up-to-date authorities - and numerous works on the subject have been issued of late years - will find a mass of information which proves conclusively that national and municipal industries can be carried on absolutely on a commercial basis. Speaking as a convinced socialist, I assert most unhesitatingly that socialism as a principle, stands or falls by the necessities of everyday life. I have no doubt that the ordinary impression is that socialists are very unreasonable people, but if any holder of that view will take the trouble to read up a little on the subject he will find not only that they are reasonable, but that some of the best master-minds of the world are on their side. Just before I rose to speak I was referring to the current number of the North American Review, which contains an article, not by one of those wild, hair-brained socialists, but by a sedate professor of political economy in Berlin University, on the national debts of the world, dealing particularly with the public debt of Prussia. 14824 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - How does the honorable member know that he is not a socialist? 14824 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - While it is just possible that he is a socialist, still he is a man of such standing that I think very few honorable members would care to cast a stone at him. In this article he is enthusiastic in pointing out the advantages to the Kingdom of Prussia from the adoption of State socialism as regards its railways and other national industries, and he makes out a wonderful case for the adoption of the principle which might be worth the consideration of the Minister for Trade and Customs. At the present time, with the development of commercialism which is taking place, there is no difference between a State industry and a large private industry so far as general management goes. At one time it was argued that a private industry had always the direct supervision of those who were specially interested in its success. But at the present time the position of the shareholders in many of the large industries of the world, in respect of the management, is quite as impersonal as is that of the people of a State. As regards the management of the iron industry in Australia, the proposals of the syndicate are practically on all fours with those which would emanate from a State, or possibly, from the Commonwealth-, if the constitutional difficulty were overcome. The first step would be the provision of a certain capital, and the next step would be the appointment of a manager, who would act in precisely the same way, whether he was representing a State or a private individual. I feel sure that if it is sufficiently attractive to a private company to embark in this industry under these conditions, the State after a little more hesitation, perhaps, and a little more inquiry, will be perfectly prepared to do so. All I ask for is that necessary interval to enable the State to institute the inquiry which the people naturally expect. As regards the possibilities of the industry, even the Minister is in absolute ignorance. It is at present in the clouds. He is not certain whether it can be made a commercial success or not. Under such circumstances, there should be appointed a commission which would be able to put such information before the States and before private individuals as would furnish some basis to go upon, and. if its report were favourable to the establishment of the industry within the Commonwealth, it would afford to the Minister, who is anxious for the nationalization of such industries, a splendid opportunity for going to the people of the Commonwealth and asking them to alter the Constitution in the direction of enabling the Government to take up the work. Surely that is a prospect which ought to have some attraction for him. 14825 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - One would think that I was groping after something to do, as if I had not plenty already to do. 14825 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - The Minister has always such a vast amount of superfluous energy that anything which is likely, in his opinion, to tend to the welfare of the people of his State, or of the Commonwealth generally, will have his best attention, and command his best work. I hope that as the result of the division a little more time will be given to the States to consider where they stand, and to the people of Australia to develop the ideals of national progress, as a good many of us understand them, and that is to give the population of the country the full advantages of its own national resources. 14825 K7U Corio 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - When, on a previous occasion, I attacked what I regarded as a socialistic addition to the clause, I was the only member of the committee who then took up the position of an individualist, and I am very glad indeed to learn, in the course of this discussion, that I have received support from quarters whence I did not expect it to come, and whence, certainly, it did not come on that occasion. I believe that if the committee could vote free from party influences there would be a majority in favour of the institution of a bonus, I also believe that if one section of the committee could be excluded, both the main. Ministerial side and the main Opposition side would vote in favour of stopping this proposal to introduce socialism. When the honorable member for Perth expressed his surprise that a professor of political economy in Berlin University should be a socialist, he gave perhaps the strongest argument against socialism which has yet been given here. When I asked whether a professor was a socialist, the honorable member said that he was a professor of political economy, and he seemed to think that that was a clinching answer to my question. I am ready to accept his deduction, and to state that no man who is a sound political economist could be a socialist. I take it that the great difficulty, in regard to the position which has been attempted to be taken up by certain honorable members, is that the State which owned the works would feel that it was its duty to give the best terms it could to its own constituents ; it would not act impartially to the whole Commonwealth. The duty of a State, as a State, is to look after its constituents who pay the taxes. For instance, if Tasmania or New South Wales were to spend public money in addition to the bonus of £250,000 in establishing ironworks, are we to expect that it would treat equally with its own people the inhabitants of Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia, who wished to use its iron 1 The people who were taxed to support an iron industry would certainly expect to receive more advantages than the people of other States. If a State establishes the iron industry, it will not be able to confine its attention to the smelting of iron, but will have to carry on smithies and foundries. It cannot go backwards, but must continually extend its bounds. To institute this State industry necessarily means the extension to all industries. The most forcible argument against this socialistic proposal is to be found in the fact that every enterprise upon which the State enters involves an increase in the cost of administration and of production. 14825 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - What about the railways? 14825 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - The effect of State control of the railways in Australia has been to largely increase the cost, not only to those who use them, but also to the general body of citizens. If the users do not pay it in fares, they do in the additional taxation which the deficit brings. 14825 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - How about the Silverton Tramway ? 14825 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - Might I refer the honorable member for Bland to the statement recently made by the Honorable J. H. Gordon, Attorney-General for South Australia, when speaking recently with regard to tenders received for the construction of locomotives. He said - There seemed to him to be something wrong when, for ten locomotives, Martin and Co. could tender at £45,280, or £13,309 less than the tender from the Government mechanical engineer. He believed Martin and Go. paid the same scale of wages, so the enormous difference in the tender suggested that they got more out of the men for the money. 14826 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - They are making railway carriages at Newport cheaper and better than those constructed by private manufacturers. 14826 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - If the honorable member had read the evidence given in the case of Speight v. Syme he would know that the cost of constructing engines and carriages at the Newport works is outrageously high, and largely in excess of the prices charged at the Phoenix foundry at Ballarat, or at the Sandhurst carriage works. The honorable member might also have read reports in the newspapers to the effect that between £400,000 and £500,000 worth of material which had been taken into account by the railway department as an asset, is about to be destroyed as useless or sold as out of date. Any honorable member who compares the results obtained under the Government control of manufactures with those achieved under private management must admit that the cost in the former case is excessively large. The effect of establishing ironworks under Government control would be to largely increase the cost of iron, and this would affect nearly every industry in the Commonwealth - in some cases, even to the point of disaster. When it is remembered that every industry in Australia is dependent upon the use of iron or machinery in one form or another, the position becomes critical if the original cost of the iron is largely increased. No industry can possibly succeed unless it is placed under proper control. If the aspirations of the members of the labour party are realized, the ironworks established here will be under the dual control of the Commonwealth and State, because the Commonwealth will have to satisfy itself that the bonus is being properly applied. We shall, therefore, have a control of the very worst description, namely, that of Parliament. This must prove ineffective, because both the States and Commonwealth Parliaments are already overworked and will not be able to give to the industry the close attention and economical management essential to success. Therefore, it must either fail, or involve such heavy expense as to make the operations utterly unprofitable. So far as the State control of the railways and the post-office is concerned, I hold that anything that can be done properly by individuals should be left to private enterprise, and that in all other cases the work should be carried out by municipalities if possible, or if not by municipalities, by the State. 14826 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That is rank socialism. 14826 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - If the honorable member agrees with that view he must admit that his amendment should be struck out, because he has not proved that individuals cannot effectively carry on the manufacture of iron. 14826 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I say that they cannot do it as effectively as the State. 14826 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - The honorable member has not quoted any instance in which a Government has taken up the iron industry, and therefore his statement is in the nature of a prophesy rather than an argument. The railways and post-office stand upon a footing altogether different from that occupied by the iron industry, but I am sorry that the States Governments have taken over the railways to work them. They should rather allow private enterprise to have control; and take a fair share of the profits. I believe that they could make a profit out of the railways by leasing them. The political management of our railways has been so inefficient that efforts have been made in almost every State to remove them from political control, by appointing commissioners. Some reference has been made to the feeling regarding this Bill in New South Wales. I might point out that the Age of 21st July contained the following telegram from Sydney : - The Carcoar Municipal Council hits adopted a motion to the effect that the action of the Federal Parliament in amending the Bonus Bill and making it applicable only to the States as manufacturers is one tending to the destruction of the iron industry, and in order to insure the industry being developed, the Federal Government be requested to reconsider the proposal, with the view of extending the bonus only to manufacturers of iron made from Australian ore. All the municipal councils of the State are to be asked to cooperate with the Carcoar council in bringing the matter before the Federal Parliament. The Council of the Chamber of Commerce of Melbourne, on 22nd July, passed the following resolution : - That this council, while not expressing any opinion as to the wisdom or otherwise of giving bonuses, records its strong objection to confining their operation to the States alone, believing that they should be open to all members of the community. The Argus of 3 1st July contained the following telegraphic message from Sydney : - In the Legislative Assembly to-day, replying to Mr. Ferguson, the Premier (Sir John See) said that he had written to the Federal Government, saying that the establishment of steel and iron works was a matter for private enterprise. This Government was not in a position to undertake the responsibility of establishing these works. The Government could not see its way to do anything o£ the kind. At the same time he would be glad if the Federal Government offered a bonus in connexion with steel and iron works, because he felt that they would be established in this State. These expressions of opinion from New South- Wales should have some influence upon the honorable member for Bland. 14827 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - No. It is because I know those who uttered them that I am not influenced. 14827 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - The recent committee of the House of Commons, which was appointed to consider the question of the State purchase of cables, and which was composed of nien holding the very- highest positions in English politics, passed a resolution upon very much the same lines as the anti-socialistic arguments which I have used during this discussion. They point out - That the State does not obtain favorable, terms for the transfer of property to itself, and that when the transfer is made there is constant pressure for an increase of the wages of the working staff and for an indefinite reduction in rates. These objections would not be fatal if. it were established that submarine cables would be more efficiently managed by the State than by private companies, but no serious attempt has been made to prove this point, and we ourselves are decidedly of a contrary opinion. If ironworks were established under State control, an agitation would very probably be raised with a view to securing a reduction in the prices charged to consumers, and if this proved successful, the whole of the taxpayers of the Commonwealth would be called upon to pay taxes in perpetuity in order to keep the industry going. I hope the committee will support the Government, so that the industry may be established . under the control of persons who are able to carry it on without imposing too heavy a burden upon the taxpayers, and who from, the experience of the past and the teachings of history best make it effective, permanent, and successful. 14827 KEW Protectionist 1 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I have been somewhat surprised to hear some of the observations made by honorable members, but as I desire that a division shall be taken as early as possible, I do not intend to do more than briefly refer to them. [Committee counted.] I have been taunted with professing a desire to see the iron industry 'established by the States, whilst refusing to afford the necessary facilities. If honorable members give the matter the slightest consideration, they must come to the conclusion that those taunts are entirely undeserved. From first to last, there has been an endeavour on the part of the Government to give the States every reasonable opportunity to embark upon this enterprise, if they choose to do so. In connexion with the Tariff, we introduced Division VIa., without any express provision in regard to the States. A suggestion was then made that it would be a proper thing to extend its operation -to them. We introduced the necessary words without any demur, and, therefore, our intention was perfectly clear from the beginning. Further, when the matter was previously under consideration, it was put that the States Governments ought to be given a preference over private individuals. Believing in that policy then - as I do now - but holding that there were doubts as to whether any State would nationalize this industry, I contended that we ought not to confine the payment of the bonus to the States for all time. Accordingly, I moved to limit the exclusive right of the States to the bonus for a couple of years. In taking that action, I was surely doing what was reasonable and liberal under the circumstances. At first those who pleaded the cause of the States sought for a shorter period; but just as we gave way the term was enlarged. Finally, however, they refused to be satisfied with any limitation, and desired to expressly 'provide that at no time should private individuals be permitted to share in the benefits conferred by this Bill. When we were asked to concede that we were asked to concede too much. If the iron industry is to be nationalized, surely two years is a reasonable period to allow of the States taking some action in that direction. I hold that a considerable advantage would be gained by limiting the exclusive right of the States to the bonus, in that it would operate as a stimulus to action, and thus induce an early settlement of the question, to the benefit of all concerned. Therefore, the charge of inconsistency which has been levelled against the Government in connexion with their declared preference for the States undertaking the work is not justified by the facts. This is not an ordinary undertaking. The question is whether money shall be given to private individuals for the purpose of carrying on a certain enterprise that is beneficial to the community, or whether the work shall be undertaken by the State itself. No doubt, it is right that we should give a preference to the States over a private company ; but at the same time the claim of any State, which is only a component part of the Commonwealth, to the benefit of the whole of the federal expenditure in this direction is not so great as would be that of the Commonwealth itself. We see what are the probabilities. The Commonwealth has no power to undertake this work. We recognise that New South Wales possesses a larger claim to preference over private enterprise than any other State, though not so great a claim as that of the Commonwealth itself. At the same time I do not flinch from the position which I previously took up. If the States are willing to undertake this work, let us give them a reasonable period in which to do so, but do not let us conserve to them the right for all time and give . the private individual no chance. Various sneers have been levelled against the States Governments. We have been told that though they speak in the plainest possible terms, they are liable to depart from the views which they now enunciate. I hold that they speak with authority. They are the only persons who can speak authoritatively on behalf of the States which they represent. Do they represent public opinion? Certainly they ought to be acquainted with it. Do we not know perfectly well that however enthusiastic this or that section may be, unless it approximates to a majority, the inertia on the other side will prevail ? What reason have we for believing that the opinion of New South Wales has not been faithfully interpreted by its Premier ? How do those gentlemen stand who suggest the reverse? Upon what do they rely? Only this moment I have had placed in my hands leading articles which were published yesterday in the two great Sydney newspapers - the Daily Telegraph and the Sydney Morning Herald - in which this question is discussed. 14828 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Does the Minister accept their views upon free-trade? 14828 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Accept them ? I suppose there is a possibility of accepting their views with reference to New South Wales sentiment upon the question of free-trade ? It has always been suggested that they are the exponents of New South Wales opinion generally. How do they speak upon a matter of this sort ? 14828 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - They opposed compulsory education, early closing, and every other reform. 14828 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - And I had the honour of proposing those reforms a long time ago. The Sydney Morning Herald, in writing upon this question, says - Preparatory to re-submitting the Bill to aid manufactures by a bonus, and particularly iron manufactures, certain steps have been taken, both by the Cabinet, and by others, to guide Parliament in coming to a decision. After discussing the matter, that organ sums up as follows : - In our own State, which is directly interested in any proposal affecting the iron industry, the reply of Sir John See expresses what we believe to be the opinion of the great majority of those competent to form a responsible judgment upon the subject. The Telegraph writes in a similar strain. It says : - The Premier of New South Wales, the State which possesses the most favorable opportunities for establishing and successfully carrying out. the industry, replies that after fully considering the question, the Government is of opinion that ironworks, and works of a kindred character, "should be carried out by private enterprise rather than by the Government of the State." Thus, it is seen that the questions submitted by the Federal Government have received replies that are not wanting in definiteness or decision. The amendment has already extinguished the chance of works being carried on by private enterprise. Perhaps the language employed in that connexion is a trifle too strong. At any rate, let us hope for the best. The Bill has not yet finally emerged from committee. The Telegraph continues - The provision intended to give help and stimulus to the iron industry has assumed a shape which makes the industry impossible. It is apparent that a serious mistake has been made. It remains to be seen whether, while there is yet time, the error will be corrected, before still more mischief has been done. So far as any State in the Commonwealth can speak, every State has spoken through its mouthpiece, its constitutional representatives, the Government. They tell us in plain terms that they are not prepared to act. Concerning New South Wales, we find the Government saying not only that they are not prepared to act, but that they believe in the Bill as we originally introduced it. They affirm that the establishment of the iron industry is a matter for private enterprise, and they are supported in that contention by the two great .representative journals of the metropolis. Under such circumstances, however desirable it may be to induce the States to a contrary conclusion, there is nothing which would warrant us in embodying within the four corners of the Bill a provision that there shall be no hope of help to any one else for all time. We are perfectly prepared,- as we were previously, - to limit the preferential right of the States by prescribing a fair time within which they must commence operations. Some little amusement was caused by our approval of the provision suggested to the committee by the honorable and learned member for Northern Melbourne. I wish to tell honorable members that we . are prepared to do anything that we reasonably can, or ought to be asked, for the protection of State interests in connexion with matters of this sort. We know the inconveniences which ma}' possibly arise. We realize that large monopolies may be created. We know further how at different times Parliament attaches various conditions tq the granting of privileges. It was suggested by the honorable and learned member for Northern Melbourne, who was simply carrying out a proposal of which the honorable member for Melbourne Ports had given notice, that there should be a right of purchase attached to the grant of the concessions conferred by this Bill - a right on the part of the Government to acquire the works and industry upon certain terms. That suggestion was laughed at by some, who urged that it would be infinitely absurd for the State to give to certain individuals a right to start an industry, and immediately it proved to be a success, bo take it away from them. Nobody suggested anything of the sort. In South Australia I know there are very few instances in which special concessions are granted without a right-of-purchase condition being attached to them ; but, of-course, it is not a condition which enables a State to wrongfully deprive a man of that which his own enterprise has created. I venture to suggest that for years past no Bill authorizing the construction of a tramway or electric work has received the assent of the South Australian Legislature which has not had attached to it the condition that after the lapse cf a certain period, during which the promoters could obtain a reward for their enterprise, there should be a right of purchase by those chiefly interested - either the local authorities. or the Government - at a fair rate, and on a valuation to be determined by arbitration. There is much to be said for the contention that a condition of that sort should be attached. I hold in my hand a volume containing the latest South Australian legislation, and I find attached to the permission to the Broken Hill Company to construct a railway to the Iron Knob the condition that the Governor and the Railway Commissioner may at any time purchase the lease, with all the buildings, rolling-stock, plant, and jetties and other works, the price not to exceed the cost of such railway, with a fair deduction, to be determined, in case of difference, under the Arbitration Act. In an Electric Light Act passed in the same State there is the condition that at any time within three months of the expiration of three years after the passing of the Act, and at any time within three months of the expiration of any succeeding two years, the local authority may purchase at a price to be fixed by arbitration. 14829 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - Those are cases where the granting power reserves the right to resume. 14829 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Those are cases where the grantor attaches as a condition the right to resume the works and all connected therewith after a lapse of time, on such terms as shall give a fair opportunity for profit earning, and shall not deprive the grantee of one penny to which he is fairly entitled. And so, as regards this proposed bonus of £250,000 for the encouragement of the iron industry. We may reserve to the Government the right, after an interval to be specified, and on terms fair to both the Government and the individual, to acquire the industry and plant: Of course, all details will have to be considered if such a proposal is made, but the terms must be such as will leave no ground for complaint by one party or the other. 14829 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - I should like to see terms which would have that effect. 14829 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I undertake to draft any set of conditions, the honorable member desires, but it is .too much to expect me to state exactly what- those conditions shall be, when I am simply indicating the readiness of the Government to take steps for the further protection of the State. If a proposal of .the kind be- made, a clause will have to be brought down and debated every line and letter, but I am sanguine that principles which have been applied under similar conditions elsewhere may be applied in Australia. 14830 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable gentleman will do anything to get the Bill through. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - No ; I shall do only what I believe to be fair and right. Anxious as we are to have this industry established, the terms must not be unfair to Australia, but such as, while encouraging the individual, will preserve the State right even to the extent of purchase at a, fair value. In the case of purchase we should be in the same position as if the State had originally started the enterprise, except that the industry would be proved, and we should not be called upon to embark in pioneering work. I was amused to hear honor- able members talking in such a strain as to leave it doubtful whether, in their opinion, the industry will be a success or a failure. The honorable member for Bland was one of these, and I wondered why, if he is so doubtful, he should be so enthusiastic about confining the bonus to the States. 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The Minister misunderstood me. What I said was that it was unlikely Australia could successfully manufacture for export. I am of opinion that the State could supply our own requirements. I was speaking on figures supplied by one of the experts. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The honorable member for Melbourne has told us that from Canada during the last eight months of the present fiscal year there have been exported 66,000 tons of locally-made pig iron. If that could be done in Australia we should have every reason to be pleased. 14830 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - That is not a very great quantity. 14830 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - How much was imported into Canada ? 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I have not the figures as to the imports during those eight months ; I have dealt only with the statistics to the end of the year 1901. The honorable member for Bland said that what is desired can be practically gained by an expenditure of £220,000, but I am told that the expert who supplied the honorable member with the figures is of opinion that that is the amount necessary to commence experiments which, if successful, would produce 26,000 tons a year, when it would be necessary to provide plant to the value of over £1,000,000. 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I am not relying on those figures alone. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I know it is very easy to misunderstand what the expert did say; 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I do not misunderstand him ; I have all his figures in my head. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - What the honorable member for Bland said was that £220,000 would provide all we want. 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Yes, in the meantime. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The population of Australia is very little less than that of Canada, and the trade of the Dominion is no greater than that of the Commonwealth. When we are told that Canada requires a certain quantity of pig-iron and manufactured goods, we shall not be over estimating if we say that our requirements are about the same. 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - For some years to come our requirements will be much below those of Canada. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I am inclined to think that our requirements in regard to pigiron and manufactured iron are equal to those of Canada, and it is nonsense to speak of £220,000 as being sufficient. Have honorable members any idea of the amount invested at the present moment in the Canadian iron industry? The amount invested is 35,000,000dollars,or £7,000,000. 14830 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - Is that in plant ? 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - It is invested in mines and. in plant, and in two or three years the amount will reach 50,000,000 dollars. From the Statistical Year Book of Canada we learn - The united investment at Sydney, Hamilton; Deseronto, Midland, New Glasgow, Radnor, Drummondville, and Ferrona amounts to 24,500,000 dollars, which will be increased to 35,000,000 by new plant, now building. Within five or six years the total investment will aggregate, approximately, 50,000,000 dollars. 14830 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - That is merely an estimate. 14830 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - And on the other hand, we have an estimate of £220,000, representing 2½ per cent. of the £10,000,000 which is invested in the industry in Canada. Australia is capable of greater things than I thought if with £220,000 she can do what Canada finds it reasonable and profitable to do with £10,000,000. 14830 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That is merely a paper estimate. 14831 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - We know how actual expenditure tends to exceed estimates. Whether it be the building of a house or the starting of works, low estimates are held forth as an inducement to invest ; but the real test is what is done by similar people under similar conditions, and a statement that £220,000 is sufficient is difficult of acceptance by a deliberative Assembly. 14831 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - What is the relation of £250,000 to £10,000,000? 14831 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - It is 2½ per cent. 14831 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - Will so small a bonus have any influence ? 14831 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Yes, though the honorable member smiles at my reply. I do not say that in the first instance an outlay of £10,000,000 is necessary ; but what is the proportion of £250,000 to £220,000 ? I am inclined to say that in this case the bonus is a matter of very considerable importance. 14831 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - The right honorable gentleman denies that £220,000 is sufficient. 14831 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I am taking the highest and the lowest figures. I have put the case fairly and fully, after having given it the best consideration of which I am capable ; and it is my opinion that the proposal of the Government will act as an incentive, and result, as we desire, in the early establishment of the industry. There is much speculation as to the result of the proposed enterprise, but my own opinion is that it will be a success. Honorable members have twitted me with not giving all the information they desire, but I have ransacked all possible sources, and I do not know what further facts can be laid before them. In committee I have not addressed myself at length to the question for the reason that I have spoken several times previously. But for the purpose of introducing the measure originally I studied the debates which took place in the Canadian Parliament when similar legislation was proposed, and I found that the speakers referred to history, and to the encouragement which had been given to the establishment of this industry by the imposition of certain duties in America and England. They pointed to the results, and asked whether it was not possible by fiscal aid to establish the industry in Canada. In asking the committee to embark on a similar enterprise, I have briefly glanced at the circumstances which induced the Canadian Government to grant bonuses. Having shown the results of the policy in that country, I do not know of any further facts which are necessary to enable honorable members to arrive at a conclusion. Granted that there is some risk, I ask whether is it better, at this time in our history, that we should provide a sure and safe means, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned, of establishing this industry, or that we should embark upon what it is suggested will be at least a doubtful enterprise? This is not a case in which we risk a single sixpence without the assurance of a five-fold return. We are asked to pay 12s. on every ton of pig-iron produced - that is 12s., or 20 per cent., on £3 in value. And this is value produced for Australia - by Australian flux, Australian ore, Australian coal, and Australian labour. What more do we want ? How often has it been my unhappy lot, in connexion with matters of this sort, to be desirous of finding employment for our people, and failing to do so? The establishment of an industry of this sort in our midst will be a means of finding fresh and profitable employment. And there is another reason for what is proposed. For every 12s. we pay, there is an increase of £3 in our National wealth. What is the value of the ore when it is lying in the ground ? What is the good of the flux unless it is used ? What is the value of the coal unless it is employed for useful purposes ? What is the use of the labourer going about the streets with his hands in his pockets seeking for work and being unable to find it? For the £250,000 which it is proposed to spend, and which is only 20 per cent. on the value of the iron that will be produced, we shall be bound to get a return equal in value to £3 for every 12s. There is no risk. Not one penny will the Commonwealth be called upon to pay, and no claim can be sustained, unless there is submitted to the inspectors of the Government five times the amount of material wealth for the amount expended. The return we shall get for our expenditure will be a £1,250,000 for £250,000 of outlay. Why do honorable members hesitate? It is an absolutely sure thing. Those are the conditions, and the only conditions, upon which we are called upon to pay. I say, looking at the history of other countries, and at what they have been bold enough to do, that Australia is capable and bold enough to do the same at least. That being so, we should no longer hesitate to do it at the earliest opportunity. 14832 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Honorable members opposite have had opportunities of speaking on behalf of property, and now I shall take the opportunity of saying a word or two on behalf of the people. We have had a vehement speech from the Minister, the Right Hon. C. C. Kingston - " Continually Cursed " Kingston, I suppose would be' the proper way of addressing him. 14832 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must not refer to a Minister in such terms. I call upon him to withdraw the expression he has used. 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I will withdraw the remark, as applied to the Minister in regard to the " C.C." But it is necessary to deal with his history in connexion with this measure. Last night the Minister delivered a speech - able, I admit it was - which showed that he had thoroughly studied his brief in a way which enabled him to adopt the attitude of Mr. Facing-both-ways. Let us look at what the Minister has done in the light of his utterances of last night and to day. He tells us that even if the Government are defeated with regard to the proposal now before the committee, he is really in favour of the policy favoured by the honorable member for Bland, and has wished for it all along. If that be so, why in the name of all that is good has he not brought in a Bill on the lines of that policy? Why cannot this Ministry show a little pluck in regard to their measure? 14832 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member must confine himself to the question. 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Then I move- That the Chairman do now leave the chair. That will enable me to address myself to the whole question, and to give the reasons which animate me in continuing the debate. The Ministry have shown that they are unfit to deal with the matter. Although they have a big majority at their back, these courageous men suddenly have become cringing and. crawling in their endeavour to save their miserable souls. 14832 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I cannot allow the honorable member to allude to Ministers in such terms. He must withdraw the words "cringing and crawling." 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - If the Chairman rules that those words are offensive, I withdraw them. Of course, they were used only in a. parliamentary sense, and did not apply to Ministers personally. Why should a proposal like this be brought before Parliament at a time when the Treasurer tells us that he is unable to bring forward the Estimates for the present year ? Is there any explanation as to why there should be such haste ? Is there a single honorable member who can claim that he is thoroughly well informed on the subject ? We have asked for a Royal commission to inquire into it so that we may know what grounds there are for asking that a large sum shall be taken from the people and handed over to a State or to a number of private individuals. But the very same feeling that made the Government lukewarm with regard to the proposal that the State should undertake ironworks, because there were no private syndicates to interest themselves in such an enterprise, makes them earnest about their present proposal, now that one or two persons may be seen continually in the vicinity of the Chamber urging upon them to do something. 14832 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - Does the honorable and learned member mean the representatives of the ironworkers atLithgow? 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I refer to the representatives of the various ironworks. 14832 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - The workmen from Lithgow have been here. 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - No one has a right to come to the House, and endeavour to influence the votes of honorable members in regard to a question before Parliament. If these people wish to discuss the matter, they should discuss it outside the precincts of the House. It is not right that honorable members should be lobbied just as they are entering the Chamber. 14832 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - Plenty of free-trade merchants haunt the House. 14832 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - And the honorable and learned member for Werriwa has been consulting with them. 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - If the honorable member says that, let me tell him distinctly that he lies. 14832 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That is distinctly a most offensive expression, and the honorable and learned member must immediately withdraw it, and apologize to the committee. 14832 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - Let it go. No one will take any notice of it. 14832 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - If the honorable member repeats his statement, I shall again repeat the same expression. 14833 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I ask the honorable and learned member to obey the standing orders, by immediately withdrawing the offensive expression he has used and apologizing to the committee. 14833 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I will withdraw the expression, and instead of saying that the honorable member lies, I will say that he has made a statement which is absolutely incorrect, and that, moreover, he must be aware of it. 14833 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I hope I shall not have to plead with the honorable and learned member any further. I request him unreservedly, and without comment, to withdraw his offensive expression, and to apologize to the committee. 14833 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - Might I suggest that the honorable and learned member can secure all the purposes of this statement by means perfectly well known to him, without offending against the standing orders? 14833 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - Very well; Mr. Chairman, I withdraw and apologize. 14833 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I understand from the honorable and learned member for Werriwa, that the honorable member for Laanecoorie made use of some offensive expression. I did not hear it, but if the honor- able member used it, I ask him to withdraw it. 14833 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - The expression which I used was that the honorable and learned member himself had been in consultation with the representative of the free-traders. I made the statement as the result of my own observation. I have seen the honorable and learned member, in the precincts of the House, in consultation with Mr. Max Hirsch, who is looked upon as the representative of the Free-trade League in Victoria. If the statement is distasteful to the honorable and learned member, I will withdraw it. 14833 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - If that is what the honorable member meant, I admit that it is correct, and I regret the expression that I made use of towards him. I understood that he said something quite different, and so offensive, that I should have asked him to repeat it anywhere. The Minister for Trade and Customs now says that he is in favor of imposing certain restrictions in regard to the payment of the bonus. This is another instance of the attitude which Ministers generally have adopted in reference to this measure. When it was introduced, not one word was said about the addition of words giving any State the right to take over works started by private enterprise. It was only when he found that the committee were against him, and that he could not carry the bonus proposals without some restriction, that the haughty Minister at once became extremely deferential, and said that the proposal agreed with what the Government had intended from the first. The Government proposed that the measure should come into operation on the 1st ult. If that intention had been carried out, the bonuses would have been offered, not to a body of manufacturers, but to one or two firms who happened to be ready to take whatever the House chose to give them. Not one word was said by the Minister in introducing the Bill showing that he considered that delay was desirable to enable the scheme to be advertised throughout the world, so that we might secure 20 or 30 firms instead of one or two to embark upon the enterprise. The Government desired that the Bill should come into operation at once, so that one or two firms might be in a position to take advantage of it. The Minister said that the Government had been interviewed by one or two syndicates, and that he knew that capital was waiting to be invested in the industry. He had been behind the scenes ; he knew what was going on ; and said, therefore, that we ought to grant this money. Could a more direct appeal be made on behalf of a special body of individuals 1 If the right honorable gentleman had accepted a brief to plead their case in another court, he could have said no more in favour of starting the industry at once. Hundreds of pastoralists and agriculturists have been rendered practically destitute by the drought; but the Government have not come forward with any proposal to give them a bonus of £1 for every £2 which they can collect. They seem to think that their whole Ministerial existence depends u on their effort to force uon Parliament a Bonus Bill which will hand over this large amount of money to a few men. The Minister pretended to be in favour of a State monopoly, but if he approved of giving the bonus to one of the States - which would be a return of the money to the people themselves - how could he be in favour of handing it over to any syndicate or syndicates ? This bit of special pleading on his part comes with an ill grace and looks bad. Have we heard one argument from him in support of the excision of the proviso, save that the various States Governments will not go on with the work ? It is worth while noting the way in which the message on the subject was sent to the States Premiers. They were asked to reply as speedily as possible, so that the matter might be rushed through. No reason has been given why honorable members should reverse the votes recorded by them upon a former occasion. The right honorable gentleman has said that some 66,000 tons of iron were exported from Canada last year. So many figures have been quoted by him that we are disposed to subject them to considerable criticism, because the necessity for special pleading on his part often causes him to- refrain from quoting the available information in full. Taking his own estimate of 66,000 tons,"at£3 a, ton£19S,000 was the value of the annual export for last year. I do not know whether he thinks that men engaged in other productions are to be considered less than men under the control of some wealthy manufacturer or other. I think, indeed, he must. Although the exports in other lines from New South "Wales alone amounted to £28,000,000 last year, yet he talks as if no such thing as production can go on, unless we give the manufacturers a 30 per cent, protective duty, and also a very large bonus. Because, if his argument amounts to anything, it means that we are to pay these men a far larger sum than the value of their exports. If no account is to be taken of anything but the export - and I might remind the Minister that very often it represents the sum which has to be paid by a debtor nation to a creditor nation - it makes a very paltry show as against the £28,000,000 worth of exports from what was the free-trade State of New South Wales. The Minister talks about the consideration he had for the Premiers, and says that because they have made certain statements, we in this committee ought implicitly to bow down to them. He reads a letter in which the Premier of Queensland says that he is not likely to deal with this subject. We can all remember" with what a great flourish of trumpets he exhibited as a guide to us the opinion of Mr. Philp. When we were discussing a question which vitally affected Queensland the retention of Pacific islanders for a further term - did he then pay any regard to the statements of its Premier? Not one word, although- it was pointed out by Mr. Philpthat, as an' election would soon be coming on, the)' would be able to deal with the matter then, and that all they asked the Federal Government to do was to wait until they could get an opportunity to ascertain from the people whether a certain course was right or wrong. Despite the protest of the honorable members for Brisbane and Oxley, and despite the written and oral protest of the Premier of Queensland, did the Minister for Trade and Customs ask us to pay the slightest attention to their objections to that Bill 1 Did he not cast aside the protests as something not to be considered for a moment? Why ? Simply because it never fitted in with his own views. But when we come to consider the question of granting a bonus for the establishment of the iron industry, what does he do? Because it happens to accord with his own views, he rushes with what one might almost characterize as indecent haste to acquaint the State Premiers with the result of the vote in this committee, and asks them to send him as speedily as possible an answer, which he afterwards quotes to us as a guide that we ought to follow. Again, if regard is to be paid to the statements made by the State Premiers, may I ask, did the Minister pay any deference to the statement of. the Premier of "Tasmania when we were dealing with a question . which vitally affected its revenue ? Whatever may. be said against gambling in any form, Tattersalls sweeps did at least prevent gambling in any but one form in that State. It compelled men to take the trouble to sit down and to reflect before they indulged in any little speculation. When the. Premier of Tasmania made a protest against stopping the transmission of letters to Tattersall's, and he was supported by the representatives of that State who sit on this side of the House, did the Minister for Trade and Customs pay the faintest attention to their objection? No, although from the very nature of tilings the State was perfectly competent to deal with the whole matter. Such a bit of political work as to try .to influence the committee by getting telegrams or even letters from the State Premiers on a question of this kind before the members of State Parliaments had had an opportunity of discussing it. has never been done before. What does Sir John See know sis to whether the Parliament of New South Wales will approve of the establishment of a State iron industry ? I admit that I. have never argued altogether in favour of State socialism. Many honorable members have supported a movement like this, sometimes as the lesser of two evils. If it requires such an enormous capital as the Minister urges it does, the manufacture of iron must, in the very nature of things, be a monopoly. The supply of ore is limited, as he urges, and there are only one or two beds that can be opened. Under these circumstances, although perhaps not under others, there are honorable members on this side who will turn round and say - " Much as we are in favour of private enterprise, if we allowed this business to be held entirely by private individuals, it would be encouraging monopoly - it would be giving a grant to special individuals which they did not deserve." As the honorable and learned member for Corio very truly pointed out, we must not forget that iron is used by men in at least twenty trades, while only one is engaged in its production. The right honorable member has stated that 4,000 men may possibly bo engaged in the iron industry in time to come. That is the utmost estimate which even the Minister has dared to offer. We know his power of imagination. We know exactly how much reliance to place on his figures. We on this side have examined them too often not to feel perfectly sure that he possesses on certain subjects connected with figures an imagination which might be the envy of many poets; and even he put down the number of employes at not more than 4,000. Is he aware that in the various trades in Australia there are at least 70,000 or 80,000 men for whom iron is the raw material? Yet he not only asks us to support his proposal, but he has the assurance to say that afterwards we must continue a protective duty of 10 per cent. He does not say to us - " This is ah industry which, as soon as it is started, will bo like many others. It will become selfsupporting." No ; so far from that being the case, by giving this bonus we shall encourage another parasite to spring up one which we must always support, because it will never be able to stand without assistance. 14835 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - As I do not wish honorable members to miss their trains, I shall ask the Chairman to report progress now, if the motion is withdrawn. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Progress reported. 14835 special adjournment Resolved(on motion by Mr. Deakin) - That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next. 14835 16:13:00 House adjourned at . 4.13 p.m.