1902-08-05 1 1 0 REPS 14835 0 House of Representatives. 1902-08-05 Mr. Speakertook the chair at 3.30 p.m., and read prayers. 14835 Questions 14835 14835 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - I wish to know from the Minister representing the Minister for Defence : - Whether he is aware that a trooper, returning from South Africa by thes.s. Norfolk, and suffering from appendicitis, was not allowed to be landed at Adelaide by the military doctor of that port, though the military doctor on board certified that he was in great danger? . Whether he is aware that a certificate from Captain Cutler, of thes.s. Norfolk, is in existence to the following effect : - "The s.s. Norfolk arrived in Adelaide on Wednesday with one of the troopers suffering severely from appendicitis. The military doctor onboard, Dr. Jermyn, wished him tended and taken to the hospital, but was refused by the military doctor there. The man was then taken to sea, but was so bad the following evening that he had to be operated upon on board. The sole excuse for not allowing him to land was that he was not a South Australian. (Signed) Thos. E. Cutler, Master If this is a correct statement, what step the proposes to take in order that soldiers returning wounded or invalided from serving their country in South Africa may not have their lives endangered by similar inhuman treatment. 14835 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member was kind enough to send me a copy of the questions which he has just asked; and, upon inquiry, I have received the following information : - Trooper Harold Burkitt, 2nd Australian Commonwealth Horse, was found the night before arriving at Adelaide to be suffering from appendicitis by the medical officers on board the ship. After consultation and after an examination of the patient, the health officer, Dr. Ramsay Smith (not the military officer), stated that it was not necessary to land him. No certificate of the description mentioned has been received by the General Officer Commanding. I am communicating with the military so that no such trouble as that referred to is likely to arise again. 14836 14836 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Has the attention of the Postmaster-General been drawn to the evidence given before the "Free Carriage of Newspapers Commission" now sitting in New South Wales ; and, if not, will he find an opportunity to read the report of the same in the Sydney Morning Herald of the 26th July? Is the sworn statement of Mr. W. McLachlan, Secretary to the New South Wales Railway Commissioners, true that the Postal department now pays such commissioners for the loss occasioned by the carriage of newspapers ; and is there any explanation of this state of affairs ? 3.Is it true, as stated in such evidence, that special trains are run from Sydney to southern districts so as to defeat the early delivery of Victorian mail matter and newspapers? Has the Postmaster-General any contract with the New South Wales railways in regard to newspaper carriage ; and what are its terms ?. Do the New South Wales railways charge Victorian newspaper proprietors different rates for carriage of newspapers than they charge New South Wales newspaper proprietors ; and, if so, what steps does the Postmaster-General propose to take in reference thereto ? 14836 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The answers to the honorable and learned member's questions are as follow : - The attention of the Postmaster-General has been drawn to a statement of evidence in connexion with the subject referred to, as published in the Sydney Morning Herald of the 26th July. He, however, awaits the official copy of the evidence. Mr. McLachlan'sevidence has been misunderstood ; the New South Wales Railway Commissioners are not being paid by the Postal department for any loss occasioned by the carriage of newspapers. Special trains are. not run, but ordinary goods trains are timed to leave Sydney at an hour suitable for the conveyance of Sydney morning newspapers to the southern districts. These trains do not carry mails. The arrangement for the early despatch of these trains was made in 1887. There is no contract now with the New South Wales Railway Commissioners for any special carriage of newspapers. A payment at the rate of £2,500 per annum was made up to the 5th August, 1901, to the Railway Commissioners for the conveyance of newspapers by all trains, but this was discontinued by the instruction of the Postmaster-General on that date. The Deputy Postmaster-General of New South Wales has been informed by Mr. McLachlan, secretory to the New South Wales Railway Commissioners, that the commissioners propose to charge the newspaper proprietors an annual rate for the carriage of the New South Wales newspapers. The arrangement has not yet been confirmed, and the Postmaster-General is not aware of the details. 14836 14836 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr KIRWAN asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What is the total amount received in Western Australia from Federal Customs and Excise duties from the 8th October, 1901, to 30th June, 1902? What is the total amount received in Western Australia from the State Customs duties during the same period ? Do the actual receipts agree with the figures in his original estimate presented to this House ; and, if there is a difference, what is the amount in each case ? 14836 KWT Protectionist 1 0 TURNER, George Sir GEORGE TURNER - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The actual receipts were, therefore, £303,078 in excess of the estimate. There was no estimate for the special Western Australian Tariff. 14836 14836 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice - Has he considered the probable effect upon Australian meteorological conditions of flooding from the sea the great interior depression around Lake Eyre in South Australia? Has the extent below sea-level of the depression above referred to been ascertained ? Will he consider the advisability of having a survey made of the depression in question, with a view to determining its extent and the point at which its sea-level contour approaches nearest to the sea, in. order that those studying the matter may have authentic data to work upon ? 14836 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE -The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The matter has been under consideration. As far as it possibly can, viz., Lake Torrens is a vast inland salt lake, from 35 to 170 miles north of Spencer's Gulf, with an average breadth of 20 miles, and about 80 feet above sea level. Lake Eyre is a large salt basin, about 120 miles long by 40 miles wide, 35 feet below sea level, north of and divided from Lake Torrens by a range of hills. I have applied to the South Australian Government for any information they have, and to ascertain as near as possible the length of cutting and cost for carrying out the project. At present this cannot be made, but may be so at some future date. 14837 bill In Committee(Considerationresumed from 1st August, vide page 14835): Clause 3 - The Governor-General may authorize the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund, which is hereby appropriated for the purpose of bonuses on the manufacture in Australia after the commencement of this Act of the goods specified in the schedule to this Act according to the rates set out in the said schedule. Provided that no bonus shall be paid in respect of pig-iron, puddled bar iron, iron or steel pipes or tubes, or steel, unless the same is manufactured in works operated by a State Government. Upon which Mr. Kingston had moved by way of amendment - That all the words after the word "schedule," line 7, be omitted. 14837 L2G Wentworth 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I am glad to have an opportunity to deal with this measure before the committee comes to a final decision in regard to it. For the last fifteen rather weary months we have been watching the legislative antics of my friends opposite ; but the series of gyrations connected with the measure now before us is unprecedented even in this Parliament. A Bill was introduced for the specific purpose of encouraging the manufacture of iron in Australia from Australian ore by private individuals ; but in committee an amendment was moved which said that under no circumstances should private individuals receive the encouragement proposed. When the ostensible purpose of a Bill is practically nullified in that way, the only course open to an honorable Ministry is to throw it under the table. But in connexion with this Bill very peculiar action has been taken. The Government, instead of throwing it under the table, have made inquiries from the different State Governments to ascertain if they will be good enough to accept a bribe of £250,000 for the creation of the iron industry. They have all replied that they wish to have nothing to do with such an undertaking, and are unwilling to receive the money. Now, therefore, the Bill is brought before us again, and the Government ask us to excise the proviso which was inserted in clause 3 when it was originally taken into committee. But we are not told whether the Government will stand or fall by their proposal. They intimate to the House by their action that they are of opinion that private individuals and not the States should be entrusted with the establishment of the iron industry in Australia. But if the amendment of the Minister for Trade and Custom is defeated, will they still go on with the Bill, and send to the Senate a measure, the provisions of which they disapprove We have a right to know whether our affairs are being administered under a system of responsible government or whether Ministers are to be regarded simply as a committee appointed to record the votes of the majority. If the Ministry have a policy they should stand or fall by it. I desire to know whether, in the event of their proposal upon recommittal being defeated, the Government will go on with the Bill ? We have . a right to look for an answer to that question. No two principles could be more diametrically opposed than those involved in granting bonuses to private individuals and in the offering of bonuses with a view to a State Government carrying on an industry. If the Government, like some doctors who believe in two kinds of quackery, tell us thai we can pay our money and take our choice, they will be degrading Parliament, As a free-trader I am absolutely opposed to the bonus system, but I would rather give bonuses to private individuals, with whom we could deal afterwards, than offer them in order to assist in the creation of a great State monopoly. Such a monopoly could not be interfered with. Either the Federal Government would have to shut out all imports by means of high protective duties, or the State Government carrying on the industry would be compelled to so reduce the price of its products as to practically tax its own people in order to prevent competition. If the iron industry were established as a State monopoly, and it were exposed to outside competition, the State would have to crawl to the Federal Parliament again and again, and ask that the duty might be increased until it reached the prohibitive point, or make its own people supply any deficiency created by the sale of the goods under cost price. One of the great principles of our constitution is that which gives the Federal Government power, with the consent of the States, to take over more and more of the States services. For instance, with the consent of the States, we have the right to take over the railways, and we might also, assume the control of their funded debts. But, in adopting the proposal to grant bonuses for the establishment of the iron industry by a State Government, we should be reversing this wholesome principle. It is proposed that £250,000 should be granted by us in order to create a new service in one of the States. There is no authority in the Constitution to justify us in granting money for the purpose, of creating a State industry over which we should have no control. 14838 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable member admits that we have the right to grant a bonus to a private individual. 14838 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - Yes ; because we could control it to some extent in that case. A private individual would carry on the industry only as long as it paid, and he would bear any loss that might be incurred, but we should have no control over the business if we once handed it over to a State Government. If the iron industry were established as a State concern in New South Wales, it might be conducted under conditions that would render it impossible to enter upon the same business in any other part of Australia; but there is no reason why we should with Commonwealth money foster an industry of that kind against the principle of equality of trade. I would point out to honorable members who hold free-trade views, that this policy of granting bonuses is associated with a scheme for the imposition of ad valorem duties. Some honorable members believe in bonuses pure and simple, but the policy of the Government is that the moment the iron industry has been established us the result of the bonus system, heavy ad valorem duties shall be imposed to keep it in existence. Therefore, I warn honorable members who profess free-trade principles, that they would not be voting for bonuses pure and simple, but for bonuses coupled with protective duties of a highly objectionable, character. I hope the committee will reverse the vote previously recorded. It was then generally understood that the States would have cheerfully acquiesced in the proposal. We are now, however, dealing with this question in the .'light of the fact that the States will have nothing to do with it at present. The Government have in this matter displayed very bad judgment. Why should we have been called upon to waste week after week in the discussion of proposals which were not embodied in the Government policy, and for which there is no urgent need? When the Prime Minister issued his manifesto, the principle he enunciated was " revenue without destruction." The Tariff' was to be framed primarily for the purposes of obtaining revenue, but its incidences were to be such that they would not harshly interfere with existing industries. Our State finances are still in such a position that no man can thoroughly understand them, and yet the Government ask us to vote £250,000 for the purpose, not of maintaining a struggling industry, but to encourage the establishment of an absolutely new enterprise. The proposal is untimely, and should, on this account alone, be rejected. What right have we, until we know how our finances will stand, to vote £250,000 away - which will involve the raising of revenue to the extent of £1, 000,000? Where is the money to come from? We might be committing ourselves to an expenditure which would seriously cripple our finances. It has been strongly urged 07.1 the one hand that we should dispense with loans, and endeavour to construct necessary public works out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, and yet, at the same time, the Government propose to give away £25.0,000 to establish an industry which, in spite of all bonuses, may prove a rank failure. We have no right to adopt either the original or the amended proposal. Apparently we have no responsible government here. I have asked the Minister for Trade and Customs if he intends to stand or fall by the proposed amendment, but I can get no answer. Are we to be told that the Government, if defeated, will pass the Bill even in an emasculated form ? If so, Ministers will not be discharging their duties according to the first principles of political honour. Are they prepared to father in another Chamber a measure of which they do not approve 1 If they do not disapprove of it, why should they seek to recommit it 1 As I have said, I am entirely opposed to the bonus system in any form, and especially to bonuses of which certain Tariff arrangements are the complement. Further, I am strongly averse to any attempt to introduce a system of socialism which makes an enormous departure from the main principles of the Constitution. This proposal was not before the country at the last general election, and I do not believe it would be favoured by the majority of the people. 14839 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I think the position taken by the honorable member for Wentworth is a sound one. It might be urged by some honorable members that it is useless to seek for any promise from the Government, because it would be impossible to rely upon them for any length of time. First of all they introduced a Bill which was intended to assist in the establishment of the iron industry by means of private enterprise. The committee, however, amended the Bill so as to provide that bonuses should be offered to State Governments only. This was a complete reversal of the Government policy, but Ministers led honorable members to believe that the alteration was just what they desired, and they cheerfully adopted it. Now they have changed front once more, and are asking honorable members to upset the work already done. Is not that a wonderful position for any Ministry to assume ? Should the purpose of the Government in recommitting this Bill be defeated, do they intend to resign? Do they propose to stake their official existence upon the result of their action? Anybody who knows them knows that in their vocabulary the word "Billet" is spelt very differently from the word " Bill," and consequently will not suspect them of- entertaining any such serious intention. If they are defeated upon their present proposal, we shall still find them hanging on to their billets. Perhaps we may even witness the spectacle of the Minister for Trade and Customs rising to declare that, despite what has happened, the Government are quite prepared to swallow whatever the committee choose to present to them. Many reasons were given by the acting leader of the Opposition why honorable members should vote against the amendment. Having considered the matter very carefully, I cannot see my way to abandon the position which I previously took up in this connexion. I have consistently opposed the bonus principle. I oppose its application to private individuals upon the ground that we have no light to assist any class at the expense of the rest of the community. On the other hand I claim that no State is in need of the pecuniary help which we should afford it by the passing of this Bill. The least powerful of them is quite able to struggle along without any such aid. My object in voting as I did upon a previous occasion was to insure that private individuals should not receive this artificial encouragement. The more I study the matter the more I am convinced that, owing to the very scant deposits of iron ore throughout the Commonwealth, this is an industry which should be controlled by the State. Evidently if it were placed in the hands of one or two private individuals it would be sure to develop into a monopoly. The same arguments which apply to the State ownership of railways are equally applicable to the State control of the iron industry. Honorable members should recollect that there are not more than one or two big deposits of iron throughout the Commonwealth. 14839 KIQ 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr Macdonald-Paterson - There are many more than that. 14839 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - There are not many deposits of true commercial value. After closely examining the matter from all points of view, it seems to me highly undesirable that any private monopoly should be created in connexion with the production of iron, and therefore I do not intend to reverse my previous vote. That vote was given for the express purpose of defeating this Bill. My imagination did not then depict the depths to which the Ministry are prepared to descend. I did not realize that, though the whole purport of the measure might be changed, they would still be prepared to accept it as their own. I never dreamed that Ministers would be ready to proceed with the Bill in a form absolutely different from that in which it was introduced. I should like to know how any honorable member who supports the clause as it stands can, at a later stage, turn round and say - " I voted in favour of granting a bonus to the States for the production of iron, but, because that proposal was defeated, I am now prepared to offer the same encouragement to private individuals." I shall vote for the amendment ; but, having done so, it will be impossible for me subsequently to favour granting a bonus to private individuals. The Ministry seem to be pushing this measure forward without rhyme or reason. Originally they fixed the date upon which it should come into operation as the 1st July of this year. That date has now passed, and because the Government saw that it was otherwise impossible to get the Bill through the House, they have given a reluctant assurance that if it be carried they will possibly allow a day or two to elapse before they make it operative by proclamation. The object of providing for its enforcement thus early is to prevent people in other parts of the world from knowing that any encouragement is to be offered to private enterprise to engage in the production of iron. This knowledge will thus be confined to one or two firms who happen to be acquainted with what is transpiring here. The Minister for Trade and Customs has affirmed that he is almost certain that one or two firms will embark upon the undertaking. As he has seen the prospectus which they have issued, I should be glad if he would inform honorable members of the estimated cost of production as it is set down in that document. That information has been carefully concealed from us. It has only to be pointed out to the Minister that there are one or two individuals who are prepared to engage in this enterprise, and he immediately becomes alert and eager to push any measure through this Chamber. 14840 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I wonder if there is a second man in the committee who would make that statement 1 14840 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - A good many think it. 14840 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I do not believe that there is one who thinks it, including the honorable and learned member himself. 14840 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY -There are hundreds and thousands who believe it. Has the Minister ever shown any consideration for the thousands of people who have been ruined through the drought ? 14840 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must insist upon the honorable and learned member confining his remarks to the question before the Chair. He must know that he is travelling altogether beyond the standing orders. 14840 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - -I submit that for the purposes of comparison it is perfectly competent for me to show that if this Bill be carried, the bonuses payable Tinder it will be appropriated by . one or two firms only. I was pointing out that no man is consistent in declaring that he is in favour of granting a bonus for the production of iron to the States exclusively, and afterwards affirming that he is willing to grant the same encouragement to a particular individual or set of individuals. The Minister for Trade and Customs himself made one declaration upon this point on Friday last. Having affirmed that he is in favour of granting a bonus to the States, which is equivalent to collecting money from the people and handing it back to them, how can he consistently declare that his words had no reference to the people of Australia, but were limited to the. members of a particular syndicate? These are the people of whom the Minister was thinking, and so far as language goes, seeing that there are probably more than one in the syndicate, he may be perfectly right in speaking of " people." But the Minister did not say from how many people the money had to be taken, and the. passing of this Bill will make the taking of the money none the less robbery. Wherever I find robbery, legal or otherwise, I shall denounce it, because I am against all injustice and oppression. The pity is that we too often find men who are skilled in the law using their abilities, not to uplift, but to degrade the people ; and there is no doubt that the intent in the present instance is. to take from the whole of the community in order to give to individuals. I should be swerving from my duty if I did not oppose such a proposal, and I intend to fight this Bill at every step. I shall vote against the amendment proposed by the Government, and for the BUI as it now stands ; and I trust that many honorable members intend to do likewise, so that we may have the pleasure of seeing what the Government will do in the event of a defeat. None but a prophet can tell what action the Government, may take under the circumstances, because they seem to be guided by no principles of honour or reason. Past Ministries in Australia, in case of a defeat of the kind, would have resigned, but from the facing-both-ways attitude assumed by the Government we know that, whatever may happen, they will say that that was their exact intention all along. It behoves honorable members to vote steadily for the Bill as now presented, if only to keep Ministers to their professions in favour of such a measure. 14840 JRR Tasmania 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir EDWARD BRADDON - It is my misfortune, so far as concerns this Bill, to differ From several of the party with whom I act. I do not, however, differ ' from all of the free-trade party, because a considerable number are, like myself, in favour of bonuses and. against duties on iron.- I should like to give the committee the benefit of the opinion of the community of Launceston, which is, perhaps, the most free-trade in Australia. During the federal elections another free-trader and myself addressed, at the Albert Hall, Launceston, a packed audience of 2,000 or more, and, at the same time, an opposition meeting was held around the corner, the chairman of which said he considered himself fortunate in having fourteen people present. The Chamber of Commerce, Launceston, has forwarded to me the following resolution : - That this Chamber is clearly of opinion that any bonus granted by the Federal Parliament should be to stimulate private enterprise, and not for State monopoly. A copy to be forwarded to the Honorable C. C. Kingston and each of Tas mania's representatives in both Houses, and to solicit their support and interest to give effect to the views expressed. 14841 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That is not a declaration in favour of bonuses per se. 14841 JRR 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir EDWARD BRADDON - It is a declaration, indirectly, of a desire to see bonuses granted to private enterprises, and not to the States. I ask the labour party where is the sense in excluding from amongst us capital absolutely necessary for carrying on enterprises by means of which an enormous amount of labour will be employed ? 14841 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - We are not excluding capital, but trying to exclude the capitalist. 14841 JRR 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir EDWARD BRADDON - We cannot do without the capitalist when we want his capital. 14841 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - We do not want his capital ; there is sufficient capital in the country. 14841 JRR 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir EDWARD BRADDON - The labour party desire, above all, to encourage such enterprises as will furnish a large portion of the community with the means of support, and it is 3hort-sighted on their part to decry and discourage the introduction of capital which we all desire, and without which a great many industries would not have been flourishing amongst us to-day. 14841 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - This subject has been exhaustively discussed,, honorable members having, entered upon an elaboration of detail on the two former occasions when the Bill was before us,- and I shall do no more now than make a few remarks on the question- immediately before us. Owing to having to leave the House earlier .than I expected, I had no opportunity of hearing the speech of the Minister for Trade and Customs last week, but on looking through the remarks which the honorable gentleman then made, I confess -I cannot, place very much reliance on the Canadian statistics as published in the Year Book of Canada. The Minister made a strong point by comparing the returns of 1900 with the returns of 1901, but I do not think that one line of figures, which forms the basis of the Minister's argument, is very trustworthy. As to production the Minister will, I think, acknowledge that the statistics from 1SS4 down to 18S9 or 1900 do not indicate the success of the bonus system. 14841 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I thought the figures for 1900' very encouraging, and the later figures much more so. 14841 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - But the Minister must acknowledge that there was a tremendous declension of exports between 1885, the year in which bonuses first became operative, and 1900. A shrinkage of exports from 35,000 tons to 6,000 tons does not indicate success. 14841 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I did not bother about the export figures. 14841 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I wish to bother about all the figures, without which the sum total may not be complete. 14841 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The last figures, quoted by no less an authority than the honorable member for Melbourne, show that 66,000 tons of pig-iron have been exported from Canada in the. first eight months of the present financial year. 14841 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Surely the Minister must acknowledge that it is a very lame argument to rely on the comparison of two years in order to maintain the position -he has taken up in regard- to bonuses - to compare the years 1900 and 1901, when the figures from 1885 to 1900 show his case to be a bad one. If there be a cause in existence for twelve or thirteen; .years for the nOn-production of successful results, and the statistics show good, results in one year only, there must be some unknown factor to explain the apparent success of that one. year. If bonuses were in existence from 18S4 to- 1900, and the statistics indicate failure, then the apparent success in 1900. must be due- to some other cause or causes. And we need not go very far to find the' cause. The Minister, in his second speech on the bonus proposals a few weeks ago, stated that within the last five or six years there had been an investment of about 50,000,000 dollars in Canada in the production of pig-iron. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I did not say that. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The Minister said that five companies had been formed in the last five or six years with a capital of 50,000,000 dollars. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I said that 50,000.000 dollars was put as the total investment in Canada, looking a little ahead ; and the honorable member will find that to be the case. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I think the Minister must have taken his information second-hand from the Year Book. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Yes, I did ; and it is shown that the investment increased from 25,000,000 dollars to 35,000,000, and then to 50,000,000 dollars. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - It is stated in the Year Book that within five or six years the total investment will approximate to 50,000,000 dollars. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - It does not say that 50,000,000 dollars will be invested at the commencement of that period ; the amount is then set down at from 25,000,000 to 35,000,000 dollars. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The enormous increase of production has been since 1895. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable and learned member ought to read the whole paragraph in the Year Book. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - It is too much to ask me to inflict the whole quotation on the committee. The Year Book states that during the year1895large deposits of chromic iron were found in Coleraine, in the province of Quebec, the ore averaging over 50 per cent. of metal, the quality of which is said to be equal to that of the metal found in Sweden. It is since then that there has been an enormous increase in the invested capital, and the indication is that this increase has been brought about by the more profuse exhibition of nature's bounty, and not by the miserable percentage of profits represented by the bonus. The production of pig iron in Canada in 1884 was 29,000 tons, and 34,000 tons in 1900. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The total local production in Canada is 102,000 tons. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The Minister appeals to us to encourage local production from local ores. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - And it is local ore in Canada. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The Minister's idea seems to be that ore taken from an adjoining State or province not in the Dominion is nevertheless Canadian. I suppose the Minister regards geographical proximity as bringing an adjoining province within the jurisdiction of the Dominion Parliament, seeing that the great bulk of the ore comes from Newfoundland. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - That is not the fact now. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - As I said before, it is very strange that the Minister should rely on the figures for one year in disproof of the statistics for about twelve years. In 1884 there were 29,000 tons, and in 1900, 34,000 tons. These figures do not indicate a success. The Minister says that in 1901 there were 99,000 tons. But evidently that increase is explained, not by the operation of the bounty, but by the enormous investment of American capital. If the Minister looks at the figures, he will also see that we cannot depend upon the 34,000 tons for the year 1900. For this reason : I find that in the table given as to the total production of iron ore in Canada in 1900 the figures are put down as 35,000 tons odd. In 1899 the total is given as 74,000 tons odd. But the value in 1899, for nearly , double the quantity, is put down at 240,000 dollars, and the value for 1900 at 583,000 dollars. Surely there must be some mistake in the figures; and, if so, the Minister's comparison between 1900 and 1901 is valueless, because it is based upon a set of figures the first of which is utterly unreliable. I cannot see that there is any way out of this difficulty except the explanation that there is a huge mistake in the figures. Un luckily, I cannot check them, because the StatisticalRegister for 1901 is not procurable. As to the general question of the granting of bonuses to assist industries, I take the stand in the beginning- and I am glad that it has been again mentioned by the acting leader of the Opposition, Sir William McMillan - that a law which can be taken advantage of only by a particular person is undoubtedly ultra vires. 14842 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston -I do not think the acting leader of the Opposition said that. 14842 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I state that first. I say also, in regard to the bonus policy of the Government, that a State itself is an individual. A State, in respect to our fiscal policy, has no relation to the Federal Parliament. We must frame a general law which can be taken advantage of by a State or by an individual. Surely if this Parliament frames a law under which a bonus can be given to a particular firm - or we will say to six firms, one in each of the different States - that would be ultra vires of the constitution ; because it would be granting a preference to particular persons as against others. It would not be an uniform law. Similarly, if this Parliament frames a law which can be taken advantage of only by a State - which is really an individual in regard to our policy - it must be a violation of at least the spirit of the Constitution and probably also of the letter of it. I, therefore, think that it is a mistake for those who have advocated the payment of bounties to States, to insist upon that policy. It may be a logical policy to prevent monopolies, but it is unconstitutional, and is open to the possibility of a great amount of political pressure from the States. Some State representatives will be trying to strengthen themselves relatively by comparing themselves with the Federal Parliament and federal politicians ; and it will be found in the future that some State politicians will be standing on the ground of the pressure they are likely to bring to bear upon federal members, with a view of getting this bounty system extended for the benefit of the States. That is a vicious element to introduce into our policy, in addition to its unconstitutionality. Besides, we are not compelled to aid the States in this way. If a State wants to give a bounty to a particular industry, it can ask permission from the Federal Parliament to grant that bounty. 14843 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston -Applyfor financial relief. 14843 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Oh, no; if a State desires to give a bounty to an industry it can do so with the permission of the Federal Parliament. And it is a far more equitable course for a State like Tasmania - so well represented by my right honorable friend, Sir Edward Braddon - for the Legislature of such a State to grant a bonus to one of its own industries, if it wishes to do so. If the policy is a good one, we shall be glad to see it result in benefit to Tasmania ; and, if it is a bad one, the other States will not have to pay for an experiment which can benefit only Tasmania. 14843 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I had intended some weeks ago, when this measure was discussed in the House, to say something in regard to its general principles. But I was too late for the second reading debate, and then I supposed that I had missed my opportunity. This occasion gives me another chance to say a few words on the general principles affecting the measure. It appears to me, in the first place, that the question is very much complicated by the situation which has been brought about in consequence of the amendment carried at the instance of the honorable member for Bland. Because, I take it, that if the amendment now proposed by the Minister for Trade and Customs be carried, we shall then have the Bill before us in the position in which it originally stood, so that every honorable member will have the opportunity to say " yes " or " no " to the general principle of granting bonuses to private firms or companies. 14843 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The Bill will then apply either to a State or to companies. 14843 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The right honorable gentleman has not very clearly announced his intention to the committee. I understood the acting leader of the Opposition to say that he thought the Minister might have made the position of the Government clearer. I am bound to say from what I have heard of the right honorable gentleman's statements this afternoon, that I am not aware of what course he proposes to take, supposing that his amendment is negatived. Because that would leave the Bill as it is now, and the Minister would be bound either to take it as it stands or to abandon it altogether. Which course he proposes to take the committee does not know. If we did know, it would lead to a clearer - and I might say a more honest - expression of views with regard to the question. It has been suggested to me - and I mention it to show what a complicated position the question is in - that, although, as a freetrader, I am opposed to all forms of bonuses, if I were to vote for the retention of the clause as it stands, including the amendment moved by the leader of the labour party, it would be the most effective way of killing the Bill. But that course would require me to put myself in the position of voting for a form of State socialism which . I utterly disapprove of , and although I might protect myself by stating that I was doing this for the purpose of more effectually killing the Bill, yet, at some future time, I should be open to have this vote brought up against me - probably without an opportunity of stating to those who so accused me of voting against my principles that I had explained my purpose to be a matter of mere party tactics. Therefore, I have made up my mind to vote against the proposal inserted in the Bill enabling the Government to pay bonuses to the States ; and I shall give my reasons for that course. 14844 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable and learned member will vote for the amendment ? 14844 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I ah ill vote for the proposal of the Minister, but not because I am anxious to help bini. He knows that. He knows that my object is to negative a more objectionable proposal than the one he has put intO the Bill. Because I would infinitely rather see a bonus paid to private individuals than see one granted to a State ; for the reason that the granting of bonuses to States appears to me to open up an avenue for the worst form of political corruption, both in the working of a great enterprise of the kind proposed, and in creating a sort of channel through which unprincipled politicians could work all sorts of political pat-poses, by enlarging upon it and making it a sort of outlet for helping the employed and other classes who might assist them politically. But the question is not to be decided by figures such as have been mentioned by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. From the free-trade point of view, it cannot matter what has been the. result of Canadian experiments. From that point of view, a bonus to private individuals is as objectionable, on principle, as bonuses to States. The only thing we have to consider here, as free-traders, is whether iron is a commodity upon which we may fairly collect revenue for the purposes of the Commonwealth and of the States - whether it should not be included in the ordinary category of commodities upon which we have to collect from £8,500,000 to £9,000,000? My direct purpose, then - -which may be pursued in an indirect way - is to try to kill the Bill altogether, because I say, in the first place, that it is distinctly opposed to free-trade principles. But I also say that it is opposed to the policy of the Government themselves, for the reason that, as the acting leader of the Opposition has pointed out, the policy laid down by the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth at Maitland was this - " We do not intend to protect industries ; we "are going to collect revenue." But we never heard a word at Maitland about the Government collecting a million of money more than was wanted for the Commonwealth and the States, in order to devote £250,000 out of that million to paying bonuses either to the States or to private individuals. Honorable members must recognise that every pound that is wanted for the purposes of this policy must be collected through the Customs, and it can be obtained only by collecting £4 in order to get the £1. Therefore, if in the future the revenue of the Commonwealth does not show a surplus as it has done in the past, an extra million must be raised from Customs in order to get the £250,000. And for what ? Not to prevent the destruction of industries, but to create entirely new industries in the Commonwealth. Has, that policy ever been foreshadowed by the Prime Minister, either at Maitland or elsewhere ? Honorable members will recollect what an amusing difficulty the right honorable gentleman at the head of the Customs deportment experienced when, during his speech upon the Tariff, he was endeavouring to prove to the House that the object of the Government was really to collect revenue, and how now and then the truth came out of him and we found him warming up to the subject of protection. But the part he was playing, whatever- he might have felt or might have desired, was this - " We are merely seeking revenue by means of tin's Tariff." There' is a complete reversal of that principle, because the Government are not merely seeking revenue, but they are deliberately taking four times the amount involved by this Bill out of revenue, and taxing, the people to the extent of another- £1,000,000, in order to obtain £250,000 to give away to assist certain individuals or certain States to embark upon a particular industry. Why one industry more than another no one knows. The State, as it appears to me, has no particular association or identification with the iron industry any more than it has with the timber industry. But we are asked, in the first place, to reverse the policy of the Government. 14844 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - What is their policy? 14845 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Their announced policy is to get revenue through the Customs, but their actual policy now appears to be to spend revenue as it is collected through the Customs, and to diminish the quantity of revenue obtained for the legitimate purposes announced by the Prime Minister. I am opposed to the State bonuses. I am opposed . to private bonuses, but, like all free-traders under present conditions in the Commonwealth, I am prepared to fine down, I will not say my free-trade principles, but my free-trade actions, in order that we may get enough revenue to carry out the work we have to do in the first ten years of the Commonwealth's history. We all know that at the end of that ten years we shall have an opportunity of fighting but this issue, without this revenue question to divert us, on the true principle of " yes " or " no " - free-trade or protection. But, in the meantime, we recognise that, although we are not called upon to sacrifice our principles, we have to adapt our actions to the exigencies of the situation. The question is, how can a free-trader most effectually get rid of both these proposals, the one to give a bonus to a State, and the other to give a bonus to individuals,, and leave the whole measure one for getting revenue 1 It must be by getting rid of the Bill altogether, because by so doing we shall avoid the necessity for collecting £1,000,000 of money through the Customs. My objection to the State bonus is this : - First of all, in my judgment, it is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution', because the Constitution actually contemplates that the States themselves shall give bonuses. Can it be said for a moment that when the Constitution! provides that a State may be empowered under certain conditions to give bonuses to industries within its own territory it was intended that the Commonwealth should give a bonus to a State? Why was it contemplated that a State might give a bonus, to an industry within its own territory? Because it was recognised that inasmuch as the State in which that industry was carried on. would benefit as against the other States by its establishment, therefore the cost of carrying it on should fall upon that particular State. Therefore the Constitution provided; that ! if any industry were to be started and [ maintained in any particular State the , money which was required to give it this ' artificial support should come out of the funds of that State. Is it not a complete contradiction of that principle to ask the Commonwealth, consisting, of six States, to put it* hands into its pockets and take from them a sum of money sufficient to artificially assist an industry in a particular State ? No one doubts for a moment that there is only one State of any importance in which this industry is likely to be established on any large scale. I am quite aware that the Tasmanian people are sanguine enough to expect that this may lead to the establishment of a very large industry in that State. I do not propose to argue against the possibilities of Tasmania, but every one knows that there is no State so well adapted to the furtherance of this industry as New South Wales. What follows ? It follows that this means that the people of New South Wales are to be assisted in the development of this industry at the expense of every other State in the Commonwealth. It is a very great pity that we have not in existence at the present time the Federal Count, which we have required for many months past, in order that a. question of this kind might be decided at a very early date in its. existence. I feel satisfied that under section 91 of the Constitution not only is the question arguable, but that there are strong probabilities that a Federal Court would prevent the diversion of Commonwealth moneys, coming, out of the revenues of the six States, to amy particular State for- the encouragement of an industry within the territory of that State. But I have other objections- to a State bonus, many of which apply to private bonuses, though to a State bonus particularly. We are all too well aware of the . effects- resulting from putting any enterprise into the hands of a State. We know that in the- history of our railways until the institution of commissioners solved, the difficulty - if it did solve the difficulty - they have been a means of enabling, politicians to put their friends by tens, hundreds, and thousands, into the public service of the country. We know that whenever anything in. the nature of a private enterprise has come into the hands of a Government, the result has been the same. In the face of that, and in the face of the experience of all the States with their railways, some honorable members are now prepared to1 indorse a proposal to put into the hands of a State an industry to which there can be no limit. Parliament has some control over a railway, but it cannot be doubted for a moment that the experience of all countries in the world is that the State cannot work an industry as cheaply as can private enterprise. If the State undertook this enterprise, politicians would be putting hundreds of people into the industry at a minimum wage irrespective of the amount of work done for that wage, and when in time it was discovered that the industry was involving the State in loss, the State would then request the Commonwealth Parliament to increase the import duty upon the commodity, in order to enable it to compete with a similar commodity coming from other parts of the world. Under this proposal we shall really be creating what will be one of the most dangerous and most troublesome institutions in the Commonwealth. Upon these grounds I certainly object to this bonus being given to any particular State. Moreover, the States have declined to take up the industry. Notwithstanding the tempting invitation which has been offered to the different States Governments by the Ministry, I think I am right in saying that not one of them has intimated any desire to take this function upon themselves. Seeing that in the Constitution the States had had reserved to them the right to give bonuses themselves, I have no doubt that they were very much astonished - if they had not carefully followed the course of events in this House - to find that it was actually proposed to give them bonuses to carry on State industries. Turning to the question of a bonus to private industry, I have another sort of criticism to offer. My criticism of bonuses to private industry is this : that even from the point of view of the protectionists, the proposal is premature. Wo must remember that it was only in January of last year that, for the first time in the history of Australia, the whole of this Commonwealth was offered as a market to this particular enterprise. We know that for years past attempts have been made in New South Wales to open up this industry. Ministries there have been approached in order that a contract might be offered for a very large supply of railway iron, and whenever the persons interested have been told by freetrade Ministers that this enterprise must stand upon its own merits, they have always replied in these terms - " We are shut out of Victoria b)' their Tariff. We are shut out of Queensland and South Australia and every other State in which railway iron is required for State railways." But in January of last year the whole situation was altered, because by the introduction of Inter-State free-trade the whole of Australia with its population of 4,000,000 became a market for the enterprise. 14846 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - I do not think that Victoria charged a duty upon railway iron. 14846 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr Kennedy - There was no duty on rails in Victoria. 14846 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Surely no Government imposed such a duty ! 14846 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It was said so. That was the answer given by Mr. Mitchell, who, as' many New South Wales members know, was endeavouring to start the industry in that State. His answer was that he was shut out of the other States and had only the limited market of New South Wales. 14846 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - He had not read his Tariff. 14846 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It may interest honorable members to know that, when I had the honour of filling the position of Minister of Works in New South Wales, Mr. Mitchell, representing a very large iron industry, approached the Government and made this practical proposal. He pointed out that when the Government bought their railway iron in England, they had to pay shipping charges, insurance, and the cost of cartage of the railway iron to the particular part of the State in which it was required. He made the suggestion that the Government should undertake to buy from a prospective company 150,000 tons of railway iron at a price equivalent to the English cost, with shipping, insurance, and cartage charges added. The Government considered the proposal and offered to do what was asked. Mr. Mitchell took some time to consider the matter, and he actually went to England for the purpose. The answer then came to the Government that, if they would give the company a 10 per cent, advantage, they would accept the contract and start the industry in New South Wales. It ended in nothing, but it satisfied me that there is no necessity for a bonus at all. As the Minister for Trade and Customs and the Treasurer are aware, there was a firm or syndicate in existence many months ago, dealing with the New South Wales Government, who were prepared to take a contract for the railway iron required for the New South Wales railways upon much better terms than those now proposed by giving them a bonus. Seeing that it is admitted that in New South Wales there are very large iron deposits, and an unlimited quantity of coal, and seeing that only about eighteen months have elapsed since the market of the whole of Australia was thrown open to this industry, it is certainly premature that the Commonwealth Parliament should now be asked to tax the people of the Commonwealth to the extent of £1,000,000 in order to give this artificial support to an industry which we have no reason to suppose will not come into existence by natural means in a reasonable time. On freetrade principles, therefore, I. am opposed to bonuses to private enterprise, and I am also opposed to bonuses to States. The question is - How can I, as an individual, effect my purpose best? As I have already said, it has been suggested to me as a member of the free-trade party that, by voting against the Government on this particular proposal to rescind the amendment of the labour party, the Bill would be made so objectionable, from the Government point of view, that Ministers would abandon it. If the Minister in charge of the Bill had told 'the committee that such was the case, I should have voted dead against it ; but inasmuch as it appears to me that the Minister is prepared to act either way in order that he may get his Bill for a bonus, or get some enactment within the very general order of leave which he has at the head of the measure - since it seems to me that he is willing to take either a State bonus or a private bonus, I think I shall effect my purpose best by voting with him in order to rescind the proposal for a State bonus, and retain the hope that, when the general bonus to private individuals again comes before the committee, I shall have an opportunity of negativing that, also. I shall vote with the right honorable gentleman who has moved the rescission of this amendment, not to help him. but with a view to defeating his Bill. Mr. HENRYWILLIS (Robertson)When this question was before honorable members some months since, in the form of Division VIa. of the Tariff, I delivered a speech in which I endeavoured to show that this particular industry required no protection whatever, and that consequently I should not think of voting in favour of a bonus. For many years past I have had opportunities for considering this question which many honorable members have not had, and I have gone into the subject pretty fully. I have already stated that I was in the confidence of the late Mr. Mitchell, who had this project in hand, and who had obtained from the New South Wales Government the promise that, if he established the iron industry in the State, they would purchase from him the whole of the State requirements in. the shape of iron rails, for a price equivalent to the ruling price abroad, plus freight and other charges incidental to importation. Mr. Mitchell, however, failed to establish the industry. He was not certain at the time that he would be able to secure from the other States a sufficient number of orders to make the enterprise profitable, but he believed that under federation - which was then in the air - he would be able to establish it, and that with Inter-State freetrade it would not only be able to standalone, but would become a very thriving undertaking. I have heard nothing from the Minister to cause me to believe that there was any tiling unsound in the arguments which I brought forward upon the last occasion ; but all the arguments advanced during the long and instructive debate which took place then have been passed over by him without notice. The right honorable gentleman, however, referred to some statistics of a rather doubtful character which appear in the Canadian Year Book for 1901. But it is stated there that the figures regarding the consumption of native ore are only approximate and subject to revision, and a significant note is added to the effect that the ore used was imported very largely from foreign countries likewise, a great deal of it being brought from Newfoundland, which, as honorable members know, is not part of the Dominion of Canada. When the Bill was originally in committee, I supported the amendment moved by the honorable member for Bland, which added to clause 3 the proviso which the Minister now wishes to rescind. I voted for that proviso in order to throw upon the Government the responsibility of giving encouragement to State socialism. It was not part of the policy of the Government, as announced at Maitland, to give encouragement to State socialism, and I naturally supposed that the addition of the proviso to the clause would cause them to drop the measure. But, true to his characteristics, the Minister of Trade and Customs has stuck to the Bill. I admire the man who will stick to his measures, but I should not admire the Minister who adhered to a measure which provided for the establishment of collectivism in connexion with the iron industry. Although a great deal might be said inf favour of the establishment of the iron industry by one of the States Governments, the people have not asked for an application of the principle of State socialism in that direction, and until there is an agitation in favour of it in all parts of Australia, I do not think we shall be justified in taking the course provided for in the Bill. My reason for voting for the proviso was that I considered that the most effective way of defeating the bonus system, a system to which I think all free-traders are opposed. We, on, this side, are now revenue tariffists as a matter of necessity ; but I hope that the time is not far distant when I shall be able to vote strictly according to my principles, in favour of free-trade as it was understood in New South Wales and exists in Great Britain. Of course, while revenue-taritfism is necessary, I am prepared to stick to my party in supporting it. But, as a free-trader, I think I shall be doing, my duty in assisting to retain in this Bill a proviso which will render it unacceptable to those for whose benefit it was introduced. All the authorities upon the bonus system whom I have been able to consult are agreed that if a bounty or bonus is paid for the establishment of an industry, and a portion of the customs receipts are applied for the purpose, the bulk of the community, rich and poor alike, contribute in proportion to their appetites. I contend that if a definite sum of money is to be given for what the Minister calls the " sufficient establishment" of this or any other industry, it should be levied by direct taxation, and the people who benefit most from the establishment of the industry, those who have a large stake in the country, should pay for that benefit in proportion to their wealth, rather than in proportion to their appetites and the size of their families. It is only by voting for the proviso in the clause that we can at the present time accomplish our object of wrecking the bonus system for which the Bill provides. If the Bill were passed, the people Of New South Wales would contribute 4s. of the 12s. per ton, or £83,000 of the £250,000, which it is proposed to pay for the production of pig-iron, puddled iron, and other raw material set out in class 1 of the schedule, while Victoria would contribute about another third, and the remaining four States of the Union the balance. If the establishment of the iron industry were likely to prove of equal value to every State in proportion to its population, something might be said for the proposal in the Bill ; but there are not more than two States, and, as pointed out by the honorable and learned member for Parkes, in all probability only one, New South Wales, in which the iron industry is likely to be established. That being so, the fact constitutes a strong argument in favour of patting aside the proposal. But the Bill does not provide only for the granting of bonuses. A bonus is to be given which, at the beginning, will equal approximately 20 per cent. of the value of the iron produced ; but at the end of five years it is to cease, and its place is to be taken by an import duty upon iron of 10 per cent., which is apparently to remain for all time. No doubt there are protectionists who might be found to support a 10 per cent. duty upon iron, but would any one support the establishment and retention of a monopoly by a duty, which, on the first revision of the Tariff, would probably be raised to 20or 30 per cent? A very plausible argument for the raising of the import duty from 10 per cent. to 20 per cent. would be the f act that the original bonus was equal to 20 per cent. upon the value of the iron produced, that the industry was still in its infamy, and that it employed thousands of men who would be thrown out of employment if more protection were not granted to it. We read of logrolling in connexion with other Parliaments, and we know how much lobbying has taken place since this Parliament met. 14848 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - On both sides. 14848 L1D Robertson 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - Yes, on both sides. I am disgusted at it. But it leads me to believe that sufficient influence would be brought to bear upon honorable members to cause them to increase the import duty upon iron to 20 or even 30 per cent. 14848 JRR 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir Edward Braddon - Has the honorable member been lobbied ? 14848 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I have been consulted over and over again. I do not think that anything has been said to me in respect to this Bill which should not have been said, but I know the object of the interviews, and I had experience of the lobbying which took place last year. The provision which the Government now -wish to rescind was deliberately agreed to by the committee, and it must be inferred from the action of the Government that they .are. of opinion that it should not be retained in the Bill, the proposal being no part of their policy. That being so, they will be justified in dropping the Bill if the amendment of the Minister is negatived. Surely the Government will not adopt the decision of the third party in this Chamber as their policy, and if the committee do not reverse the decision previously arrived at there will be no course open to them but to drop the Bill. The Minister stated that he was induced to ask the committee to reconsider their decision by the attitude assumed by the States ; but no other result could have been expected. If the proviso is allowed to remain, private enterprise is not likely to be encouraged, because it will be open to one or all of the States to embark upon the manufacture of iron at any time, and to bring their unlimited resources to bear against any private competitors. This would prevent capitalists from investing at least £500,000 in plant for the establishment of ironworks. An investment of this kind would in its turn involve the further expenditure of millions of money, and give employment to thousands of men. Some honorable members may ask why the States should refuse to avail themselves of the bonuses proposed to be offered. In the first place, there is very little likelihood of any State besides New South Wales being in a position to establish the industry, and that State would derive no material assistance from the granting of a bonus, because she would have to contribute very largely to the maintenance of the system. Moreover; the New South Wales Government is independent of the Federal Government, and as States Ministers are very jealous with regard to the' Federal Government, we can easily understand their dismissing the proposal with a shrug of the shoulders. If New South Wales desired to establish the iron industry she could do so with greater advantage by remaining independent of all aid from the Federal authorities. Under the bonus system proposed by the Government she would have to contribute one-third of the outlay involved by the system, and as it is unlikely that the impecunious States will be able to bear their share of the .expenditure, a further fairly heavy burden will probably fall upon the mother. State. Therefore New South Wales would have the advantage of only the Victorian contribution of one-third of the cost. This would be equivalent to 4s. out of the 12s. per ton proposed to be granted for the manufacture of iron. If New South Wales were to establish ironworks entirely on her own account, she would lie able to obtain, her own materials where she chose. She might, for instance, obtain supplies of hematite, which is required in the manufacture of pig iron, from New Caledonia. Upon this subject George Griffith, in his work, In anUnknownPrison Land, says : - At Prony, not only the rocks and the boulder?,, but the very sands of the shore themselves were of iron - sometimes pure, but as a rule containing from 85 to 90 per cent, of the metal. Millions of tons of it ave lying round the shores of one of the finest and safest natural harbors in the world. A thousand miles away are the coal fields of New South Wales. Since it pays to ship copper and iron from Spain, and even South America, to Swansea, one would think it would pay to ship this to Newcastle: However, there it lies, waiting, I suppose, for some one to make fortunes out of it. That is the finest deposit of ore in these southern seas, and would be extremely valuable to New South Wales. Freedom to draw upon the resources of New Caledonia would be worth more to New South Wales than 4s., or even 12s., per ton bonus.. Probably this is one of the reasons which actuated the New South Wales Government in intimating that they had no intention to avail themselves of the provisions of this measure. Sir John See, in his reply to the 'Minister for Trade and Customs, said : - I desire to inform you that my Government have given the fullest consideration to the matter of the establishment of ironworks and works of a kindred character, and are of opinion that such should be carried out by private enterprise rather than by the Government of the State. I might add that we favour both a duty and a bonus, and should be glad to support any action taken by the Federal Government in regard thereto. That is a very courteous reply, and such ! as one would expect from the Govern- j ment of an important State like New 1 South Wales. 14850 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Sir John See was even more emphatic in his statement to Parliament. , 14850 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I can quite believe it. As free-traders we are fully prepared to learn that the protectionist Government of New South Wales is in favour of a protective policy in regard to the iron industry. They know that if pressure were brought' to bear upon them to establish the iron industry as a State concern, they would be at liberty to act quite independently of the reply which they have forwarded. As a free-trader I am opposed to the bonus system, and I wish it to be understood that I think that the Bill should be made unacceptable to Parliament, and that the most effective way of securing its defeat is b)' retaining the proviso. The responsibility in this matter must rest upon the Government, and they must stand or fall by their policy. I do not think that the way in which I intend to vote should be interpreted to mean that I am an advocate of State socialism. In Australia, however, there are very many State socialists. They are to be found upon both sides of this Chamber, and in the ranks of the most conservative in other parts of the world. The very conditions which prevail in Australia tend to make a man a State socialist in many directions. It is not Jong since the Honorable Sir William Harcourt was asked whether he did not favour the municipalization of certain services in England, to which he replied - " Oh, now we are all State socialists." To a certain extent I think we are all State socialists, because we not only favour the municipalization of such services as gas, water and sewerage, fuel and ferries, but we have deliberately enacted that our railways, tramways, telephones, and post-offices shall be under the direct control of the State, a form of State socialism which very few of us would be willing to abolish. 14850 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - Each case must be considered upon its merits. 14850 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - Exactly. If it were the will of the people that the production of iron should be nationalized I do not think that in bowing to it one would have to swallow much more than he has done in the direction of State Socialism. But if we give a bonus of 20 per cent, upon the production of iron to private individuals, ! the probability is that, at a later stage, an attempt will be made to increase it to 30 per cent., and. thereby increase the railway freights to farmers and other primary producers. 14850 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Oh, no. 14850 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - The right honorable gentleman knows much better than I do what is asked of Parliament upon occasions. I can quite conceive of this Parliament being requested at some future period when the Tariff is under revision, to increase the bonus proposed to be granted under" this Bill, and I think that the advocates of such a proposal would be able to make out a plausible case by urging that the encouragement which had been afforded the industry was insufficient. But I should like to point out to honorable members that the possibilities of the iron trade in Australia are enormous. The ordinary requirements of the States themselves are considerable. For example, in connexion with the railway which it is proposed to construct between Kalgoorlie and Port Augusta, besides the steel rails required, pipes will need to be laid along the whole route - a distance of 1,000 miles. Then the consumption of iron in the construction of the transcontinental railway from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek will be enormous. I am convinced, from correspondence which I have had with iron masters in England, that capitalists are quite prepared to establish this industry in Australia without any encouragement being granted to them in the way of protection, provided they are guaranteed the trade of the several States. Knowing that, I am perfectly satisfied that ironworks can be profitably established here without 'any artificial aid. My parliamentary experience, and my observations of the working of a protective system extending over many years, convince me that if we once establish this industry by granting a bonus to private individuals, that bonus, in the form of a protective duty, will not be withdrawn from them in my lifetime, or in that of the Minister. The money that would be paid by the people would amount to millions sterling, and their annual _ contributions would pay the interest upon millions of bonded debt with which they are now "so heavily weighted. If the iron industry is native to Australia, then it can be established in our midst without any artificial aid. Not a single argument has been adduced to show that it is not native to the Commonwealth. Indeed, there is everything to prove the contrary. The facts that in this young country an enormous demand exists for iron in various forms, and that we possess every metal required in connexion with its production - such metals, for example, as wolfram - prove conclusively that the industry is native to the soil, and requires no protection whatever, though it may need some3 encouragement in the way of guaranteeing . to it the trade of the several States. If the Government would interest themselves to the extent of inducing the States to give their trade for a certain number of years to any particular firm embarking upon this enterprise upon the lines laid down by the present leader of the Opposition when Premier of New South Wales, the industry would secure all the encouragement that it requires, and the people would benefit to a great extent. Moreover, the iron industry in Australia enjoys a high measure of natural protection, inasmuch as the freight charges upon imported iron, as I learn from the expert who recently came to Australia from London, range from 17s. 6d. to 20s. per ton. Honorable members have been informed that pig-iron is brought out as ballast, and that very little freight is paid upon imported iron. I have it, however, upon the authority of the expert from London, that the freight to Western Australia is 17s. 6d. per ton, whilst to the other States it is 20s. per ton. 14851 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Has the honorable member contrasted oversea freights with local freights 1 14851 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I am very glad that the Minister has referred to local freights, because it seems to me that the rails and pipes required for the great trunk line which is projected from Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta might advantageously be taken to the latter place, thus saving the i cost of 200 or 300 miles of railway haulage, as compared with that which would be incurred if they were taken to Fremantle. Similarly, in connexion with the proposed line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek, it would be wise to send the rails to Port Darwin, inasmuch as the Pine Creek railway is only 145 miles in length, whereas Oodnadatta is 688 miles from Adelaide. As New South Wales is the State in which this industry is most likely to be established, honorable members will recognise that the local freights would be a very small consideration as compared with the natural advantages which the industry would enjoy by reason of its geographical position. I would further point out that much of the iron ore used in Great Britain is imported from Spain or South America, whilst the wolfram comes from other parts. Altogether, the oversea carriage referred to by the Minister is much greater in England than it would be if we had to import our ore to a very large extent from New Caledonia. 14851 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The idea of some people is that it should be brought from Tasmania. 14851 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I suppose that the expense would not be greater to bring it from New Caledonia. Off the coast of Queensland there is an island which is composed largely of wolfram. That wolfram could be landed in Sydney at a much lower cost than that for which wolfram is selling in England at the present time. We have everything that is required in connexion with the iron industry, including the iron ore, wolfram, limestone, and coal, in very close proximity to water carriage, which is the cheapest form of carriage available, and therefore we enjoy natural advantages which do not exist to the same extent in England. These advantages are such that the industry can be established in Australia without any artificial aid whatever. These are some of the reasons which will induce me to confirm the vote that I gave upon a previous occasion, and to side with those who favour the retention of the provison in the Bill. I believe in freedom of commerce as far as possible, and I hope that my vote will be the means of setting aside this measure, seeing that the object of the Government in recommitting it could only have been to . induce honorable members to reconsider their previous decision. If the committee will not reverse their previous decision, we may reasonably expect the Government to cast the Bill under the table, and I shall be very glad if that course be taken. Mr. JOSEPHCOOK (Parramatta).I feel that I ought to say a few words explanatory of the vote I am about to give. The honorable member for Robertson has ' declared that he will adhere to his previous I vote with the express intention of trying to kill the Bill ; find that, I believe, is the attitude of other honorable members on my own side of the Chamber. Whilst listening to the honorable member for Robertson and others, I have been wondering whether the reasons which actuate them also influence the minds of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, the honorable member for Bourke, and other ultra-protectionists. We are told that in the opinion of some honorable members the Bill must contain a clause as proposed by the Government, in order that it may pass this and the other House ; consequently, there is a complete divergence of view amongst honorable members who are taking common action in connexion with the amendment. I voted for the amendment of the honorable member for Bland, being of opinion that if a bonus had to be given it was preferable to give it to a State rather than to an individual. But circumstances have since changed. We have had the distinct announcement by the States Governments, without exception, that they will not undertake the enterprise. Nothing could be more definite or unmistakeable than the pronouncement of Sir John See,who, in addition, has distinctly stated, in response to queries in the Parliament of New South Wales, that his Government have made up their minds to have nothing to do with the establishment of State ironworks. The proposal before us is therefore not free from difficulty to one who, like myself, does not believe in bonuses, but has an anxious desire to see the industry started. I believe the industry could and would be started even without the aid of a bonus, and if we vote to retain the clause as at present, in view of the expressed intention of the States Governments, we shall not only kill the proposal for a bonus, but also prevent the possibility of outside persons undertaking the industry; for no private company would venture on such undertakings with the menace of a State bonus over them. If the Governments will not undertake the enterprise, the least we can do is to leave the way open for private individuals. I understand that the capital is already at hand, and everything favours the undertaking by private enterprise at an early date. At any rate we have now an adequate market, and the possibility of production on a competitive scale ; and to maintain the clause at present would simply mean the shutting out of any chance of the establishment of the industry, even without any aid from the Government. I shall maintain my own principles at the later stages of the Bill, and resist any proposal to kill the enterprise while trying to kill the Bill. Question - That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the clause - put. The committee divided. 18 24 Majority ... ... 6 AYES NOES Question resolved in the negative. Amendment agreed to. 14852 F4R Bland 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I understood the Minister to say that he was willing to make a compromise with regard to the period during which the States should have priority of claim for the bonus. 14852 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The honorable member for Bland previously refused to accept a compromise. 14852 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Certainly ; because I did not think it was adequate. But seeing that we cannot get all we want, I am quite prepared to now accept the compromise of giving two years' priority to the States. We ought to have some indication of the present Ministerial attitude. 14853 KEW Protectionist 1 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - When there was some doubt as to whether the States were likely to undertake the iron industry, I was inclined, in the first instance, to fix a period during which they might have preference of claim for the bonus. Since that time, however, we have had the fullest information on the subject. 14853 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - But the Minister expressed his willingness to make such a compromise after he got the information from the States. 14853 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I do not think so. If a promise of that sort were made, there is no doubt that an attempt ought to be made to fulfil it ; but the position has been properly and strongly put that such a provision would amount to a sort of threat that private enterprise might at any moment be exposed to competition with a subsidized State Government. I am inclined to think that the better course would be not to introduce a limitation of the kind. It would be useless and open to objection as a standing menace to private individuals embarking on the enterprise. Mr. CONROY(Werriwa).- It would be sufficient explanation for the Minister to say that the promise was given to the honorable member for Bland before it was known that the Government would have a majority of six in the division just taken. Now that the voice of the Committee is in favour of the Government no more need be said. Perhaps if the debate continues a little longer, the Minister may be able to think of some other reason than that I have indicated, or he may change his mind with the same readiness he showed a few minutes ago. Then again, on two occasions last week the Minister said he was in favour of giving bonuses to the States. If he is in favour of that policy, how can he favour giving bonuses to individuals? I trust that any honorable member who voted in favour of State bonuses will be careful to give his reasons before he departs from that vote and supports a proposal enabling the bonuses to be granted to private individuals. Iron is the raw material of over twenty trades. Are we to tax the twenty for the benefit of one" The proposal of the Minister is not only to tax them in this way, but, in addition, to impose a protective duty of 10 per cent. Iron is more largely used than is any other material, and the very fact of imposing this duty will tend largely to discourage manufactures. But I do not think there will be much backsliding from amongst those who are in favour of the State as opposed to private individuals undertaking the iron industry. Let honorable members look at the energy the Minister has displayed in connexion with this question. Look at the way he has spoken to his brief ! But he has not ventured to state his reason for changing his opinion on the question of the manufacture of iron by States or individuals. This is the man who originally came here with a character for standing up to his opinions. Apparently, in his view, standing up for one's opinions means only standing up for them when there is a majority in their favour. My objection to the clause as it stands is that we are asked to give a bonus to a set of individuals, and not one, word of argument has been adduced in favour of it. The Estimates are nob yet before us, and we do not even know where the money is to come from. 14853 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - I do not wish to be unfair or uncharitable, but it is remarkably strange to see the Minister for Trade and Customs in the new guise of champion of private enterprise when the other night we heard him so eloquently claiming that the manufacture of iron was a proper subject for governmental control. He then pointed out that his only difficulty was to know whether the States Governments would take the matter in hand, and he said that if he were assured that they would, no member of this House would be more ready to give them that opportunity and to assist them in every way than he would. Now the Minister is asked whether he will give the States the reasonable period of two years within which to consider their position. Up to the present the matter has not been seriously considered by the States as States. A hurried decision has been arrived at by different Governments for the time being, but though they control the affairs of the States to-day they may be gone to-morrow. Because of that opinion the Minister ranges himself under the banner of private enterprise, and is fighting, not for what he professed last week, but for a set of private capitalists. The suggestion thrown out by the honorable member for Bland is not an unreasonable one, and certainly it did not meet with the Minister's opposition last week - that is, that the different States should have an opportunity of making up their minds. Why should not a proviso be inserted in the clause to the effect that it should be open to the States to avail themselves of this provision for the next two years, after which it shall be open to private enterprise? 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I have been looking up the remarks I made on a previous occasion, and which have been referred to, and I have found them. 14854 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The remark was made by way of interjection, I think. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I wish to give honorable members the full benefit of whatever I said, not abating one jot or tittle. 14854 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown -The right honorable gentleman should know whether the principle isa good one or not, without reference to what he said last week. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - As regards the suggestion made, what I am afraid of is that the States will not take up the matter of the manufacture of iron, and the thing will be " stuck up." 14854 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - Give the people an opportunity of saying whether the States Governments should take it up. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - This is what I find I said, amongst other things : - I do not flinch from the position I previously took up. If the States are willing to undertake this work, let us give them a reasonable period in which to do so. But do not let us conserve to them the right for all time, and give the private individual no chance. 14854 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That was after the Minister had received the answers to his inquiries. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Yes, it was and I am reading the passage in order to make it available to honorable members at the earliest opportunity. Of course, when I was put to it, what I said was this -"I do not think there is a chance." I do not think there is the slightest chance of the States undertaking this work. 14854 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - Give them three months. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - No. I will not. Honorable members know that it is not our intention that this industry should be jumped at a moment's notice by anybody. It is our intention that it should be open to fair competition by a good many. We do not desire to create it for any particular individual, company, or State. On that point our idea would be in connexion with the schedule to insert a provision that the bonus should not be payable except as regards a future time, both as to commencement and expiration. Honorable members know that this question was raised in connexion with the date of the commencement of the Act, and the Government then promised- 14854 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - But that was not what the Minister was referring to. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - No the question has been discussed from two points of view. 14854 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The right honorable gentleman practically indorsed the proposal of the honorable and learned member for Northern Melbourne. 14854 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - It was my proposal originally. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The proposal of the honorable and learned member f or Northern Melbourne covered two points - one having reference to the right of purchase and the other having reference to wages, but, so far as I recollect, the honorable and learned member did not speak upon this point at all. 14854 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - Yes, he did. 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - He was not the one who suggested it by any manner of means. He directed his attention to the question of the right of purchase and to the question of wages. I think that under all the circumstances honorable members have a right to expect us to fix a future date for the commencement of the bonus. That would give all an opportunity of getting word of the competition. I am sorry that in view of the improbability of the States taking up the industry, there should be any special condition of the kind, but I think it is possible to establish a claim for a reasonable time during which preference shall be accorded to the States over a private individual. The Government, therefore, will not resist a reasonable proposition in the direction. Amendment (by Mr. McDonald) proposed - That the following words be added, "Provided that for two years after the commencement of this Act any State Government shall have prior claim to such bonus." 14854 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I do not thirds the words used by the honorable member will carry out the idea effectually. I shall draft a proviso, if honorable members will agree to that course, which will have the same effect. Honorable members will recollect that I brought forward a clause with the same purpose. What I suggest is a proviso to the effect that if within a certain time any State declares its intention in a certain way - and I think it ought to be by resolution of both its Houses of Parliament - to avail itself of the provisions of this Bill, then its provisions shall apply only to the States. 14855 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Will the right honorable gentleman make that time two years ? Mr.G lynn. - That will suspend the operation of the Bill for two years. 14855 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - Is the right honorable gentleman going to agree to that? 14855 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I am going to submit a proviso which will give to the States a preference for a limited time. We proposed that before. 14855 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - It was not accepted before. 14855 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - No, it was not accepted. 14855 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - Then why does the right honorable gentleman go back upon his party now ? 14855 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON -For this reason : That certain expressions were used in debate which probably give honorable members the right to say that they expected it ; and, therefore, we intend to propose it. 14855 KQP ALP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD -paterson. - Will the preference be given for three or six months ? 14855 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - Surely the right honorable gentlemen is not going to propose two years ? 14855 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - We shall not have a general election before that time. 14855 KIQ 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr Macdonald-Paterson -Then we shall set aside the Bill until after the general election. 14855 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - The right honorable gentleman will do himself a lot of harm if he does this. 14855 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I am inclined to think that two years is, under the circumstances, too long. 14855 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Passing a Bill to operate in two years' time is ridiculous. 14855 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I say that perhaps a proviso of the description to which I refer should extend for a period of one year, which should be long enough for the States to make up their minds on the subject. I believe that they have made up their minds, and are not likely to depart from the decision at which they have arrived. We have certain information on that point ; but, as I have said, for the purpose of keeping faith with honorable members in the strictest sense of the word, I am prepared to submit a proposal to give preference to the States for one year. Sir WILLIAMMcMILLAN (Wentworth). - This has been a remarkable exhibition of inconsistency. The right honorable gentleman only two minutes ago indorsed expressions used by one or two honorable members to the effect that if there were any attempt to tamper with this proposal by tying it up, it would be impossible, under the shadow of the threat of a State taking up the industry, for any private individual to act. The right honorable gentleman agreed with that. He admitted that the argument was perfectly sound, and he said that they had approached the different States Governments, and that each had refused to take action. He also said that he was perfectly certain that the States would refuse to touch it. 14855 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - That is the reason the clause was recommitted. 14855 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - The right honorable gentleman expressed the opinion, as a responsible Minister, and on the basis of the correspondence with the States Governments, that he was perfectly certain they would not touch it for several year's. Now he turns absolutely right about face and declares that in spite of his own expression of opinion, he is prepared to agree to a' certain proposal. I say it is trifling with the whole thing. It simply shows that it would have been far better, far more constitutional, and far more in accordance with the honour of responsible government, if, when this Bill was wrecked before, the Government had thrown it under the table. It is a very serious position that this Chamber is placed in. We are face to face with the question whether there is any responsibility in what we call Ministers of the Crown. If this kind of thing is to proceed further it will be far better to vote for a committee to manage the business of this House. The right honorable the Minister for Trade and Customs, who has some reputation for strength of mind and strength of character, should surely know his own mind within ten minutes ? We have belittled ourselves not only before the people of Australia, but before the people of the Empire. I shall explain that. We passed a resolution here the other day, and the Government gave its countenance to a proposal by which private individuals would have an opportunity of starting an industry of this kind. That course was taken on the good faith of the Government in the passing of a certain part of our Tariff, and yet the very Government who proposed this have turned round and accepted an absolutely different principle, and have thrown over those people who attached some importance to the faith of Ministers. What are we to expect from responsible government if no one can know what the intentions of Ministers are ? The best thing we can do now is to negative the whole clause, and let the Bill be at once destroyed. That is the only proper course to pursue. I do think that my honorable friends of the labour party ought really to accept the opinion of this House upon the matter as so far expressed. 14856 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - " So far " is good. 14856 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - If we suspend this proposal for a year, or for two years, we shall practically be attempting to legislate for the next Parliament. If a year is proposed we shall be then under the shadow of a general election. What private enterprise in the world would attempt to undertake an industry of this kind under those circumstances? I say we are trifling with the whole thing from beginning to end. Let us decide upon one thing or the other, like responsible people, and not make ourselves the laughing stock of the outside public, as we are doing. I hope no attempt will be made to interfere with the vote which has been taken. I intend to vote against the clause altogether, in order to save time and have the Bill put under the table. Mr. WATSON(Bland).- It is well enough for the honorable member for Wentworth to talk of accepting the vote of the committee ; but those of us who desire to go a little but of the beaten track in political movements find it rather an unwise thing to accept the vote of the committee, because we do not quite know how soon that vote may be changed. So far as the opinions of some honorable members are concerned, they have changed very considerably within the last few weeks, and the Minister has changed his opinion within the last few minutes. I understood that he was going to stand by the proposal he made last week. 14856 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn -Sodid we who voted with him. 14856 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - If the honorable member for Melbourne had been in his place, and had heard the proposal the right honorable gentleman made last week, he would understand that it was that the States should have priority of claim to the bonus for a period of two years. 14856 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - I never understood that. 14856 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - The Minister now puts forward another proposal which, from the point of view of those who desire to see the States given an opportunity of going into this industry, is not worth a snap of the finger. What opportunity is afforded to a minority that may exist at present in a State to become a majority in favour of entering upon this enterprise in twelve months' time? There would not be time even to shift a Ministry, clinging limpet-like to their seats, in that period. We cannot expect the people of New South Wales, of Tasmania, or of any other State in which coal and iron are found together, to give an expression of opinion upon this subject, except at a general election, and no general election is due in any of the States likely to enter upon this industry for the next two years. Unless we allow a few years during which we may get an expression of opinion from them, it is utterly useless to put forward any such proposal as the Minister now indicates that he is willing to agree to. So far as I am concerned, therefore, I say that I have no option left but to vote against the Bill and the clause. I say, at the same time, that I am prepared to vote for such a proposal if sufficient time is. given. I think the honorable member for Kennedy ought to persist with his amendment seeking to enact a period of two years within which priority shall be given to the States. Any less period than that is of no value. Two years is even too short, but I am satisfied that we cannot expect any definite expression of opinion on this subject to be obtained from New South Wales in less than that time. The present State Ministry is not likely to take the matter up until the pressure of public opinion is strong enough to induce them to do so. I am convinced that there is every probability of that expression of opinion being given at or before the next general election, but sooner than that one cannot rely upon it. I think, therefore, that the suggestion put forward most recently by the Minister is quite different in spirit from that put forward last week, when the right honorable gentleman spoke a second time upon this subject. The Minister proposes now to give twelve months' priority to the States. The minimum period spoken of last week was two years ; the period of one year is inadequate. 14857 KED Moira 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - I am somewhat surprised at this reversal of attitude on the part of the Government. It is difficult for honorable members to understand where they really are. With regard to the proposal to give the States priority for a period of two years, I would point out that those who support it say in the same breath that there is not the slightest chance of the States taking advantage of it. 14857 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I said quite the contrary. 14857 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - The honorable member said there is no chance of a general election taking place in either New South Wales or Tasmania for two years to come. 14857 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I said that a general election would take place within two years. 14857 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - We have been informed by the Governments of those States that they have no intention whatever of taking action towards the establishment of. the iron industry as a State monopoly. Is there any likelihood that their-attitude will be changed until . there has been a general election ? 14857 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - They may be converted within less than two years. It has taken a shorter period than that to convert other Governments in regard to other reforms. 14857 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - But their hands cannot be forced until there has been an election. The sooner we have a decided opinion from the Government in regard to this matter the better it will be for all parties. On a previous occasion, when a provision similar to that now submitted by the honorable member for Kennedy was before the committee, those who now advocate it refused to accept it as a compromise ; they would have nothing less than the complete control of the iron industry by the States Governments. I am amongst those who have no fear that the persons employed in this industry would be injured if it were undertaken by private enterprise, since Parliament can always control the conditions under which it must be carried out ; but why do the Government blow hot and cold upon this matter ? I voted for the excision of the proviso because I believed that the Government would abide by the decision of the committee, but we had hardly arrived at a decision before they went back upon their own statements. Their action has been unfair to their supporters and to the committee generally. 14857 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The Minister for Trade and Customs stated last week that he was in favour of this proposal. 14857 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - -Certainly not. 14857 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Yes, on Friday. 14857 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - I clearly understood, that the Government would stand by the clause as it was originally introduced. We have been informed by the Minister that the States Governments refused point plank to take steps for the establishment of the'iron industry. We know that many honorable members voted for the provision, not because they are in favour of it, but because they wished to defeat the Bill, and if the Government are not now going to stand by the clause as it was originally introduced, I shall refuse to countenance the continuance of the present farcical proceedings, and, although I have told my constituents that I am in favour of granting bonuses for the establishment of the iron industry, shall vote against the Bill. 14857 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The honorable member for Moira has rightly described these proceedings as farcical. I never knew a Minister to trifle with a committee as the Minister for Trade and Customs has trifled with this committee. If he had had any intention of supporting a proposal for the giving of fi preference to the States Governments for any period, he would not have asked the committee to- excise the proviso added to the clause on the motion of the honorable member for Bland, but would have moved the addition to it of words which would carry out his intention. The Minister could have saved all the discussion which we have had during the last three days by taking some such course as that. 14857 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - He has been in favour of our amendment right through. 14857 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Then why did he get the committee to rescind it % 14857 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Because he has also been opposed to it right through. 14858 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - He appears to be alternately in favour of it and opposed to it. Usually a person allows a decent interval to elapse between his advocacy of one set of opinions and his adoption of another set. But the Minister shifts from one attitude to another with the rapidity of a lightning change artist. He opposed the restriction of bonuses to State undertakings as against the interests of the industry and of the Commonwealth, and because there is no hope of any State Government establishing ironworks ; but, having got together a majority, and rescinded the proviso of the honorable member for Bland, he turns round and proposes the very thing he previously opposed. Every member in the committee has reason to complain of this change of attitude. No section of the committee can form any definite plan when the Minister departs in this way from a policy which he says he will stand by. 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - It is a little extraordinary to hear the complaints of honorable members, some of whom have been away, and therefore do not know what has taken place. 14858 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - I have not been away. 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The honorable member was conspicuous by his absence from the division which took place on the 19th June. The Government have been perfectly consistent throughout in this matter, and I shall prove it to a nicety. What we are defending to-day is the attitude we took up on the memorable 19th June. There was then a great difference of opinion as to how the States would act, and we supported the proposal that a certain period of time should be given to them in which to make up their minds. 14858 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - Then why did not the Government put a provision to that effect in the Bill? 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Because a number of honorable members opposite voted against it. Some of them, the honorable member himself included, voted in a different way to-day from that in which they voted then. 14858 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - I did not do so. 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The honorable member, at my instance, paired with the honorable member for Tasmania, Sir Philip Fysh, on the 19th June. I explained to him that my colleague was absent, and asked him to pair with him. My colleague was against the establishment of a State monopoly, and the honorable member in pairing with him must be regarded as voting in favour of such a course. SirW illiam McMillan. -I did not pair upon that matter, but upon a different question altogether. I cannot exactly recollect what the occasion was, but when I paired with Sir Philip Fysh.it was in reference to the vote given prior to that mentioned. I did not vote in the division to which the Minister has referred. 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I understood that the honorable member paired on this question. I did not obtain another pair for Sir Philip Fysh. 14858 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That pair is not recorded in the division on my amendment. 14858 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - No. I was asked to pair, but I refused, and I did not vote upon that question. 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - At any rate, whatever the position was, a number of honorable members voted for the State monopoly which they had loudly denounced, and the result was that the amendment which was proposed by the honorable member for Bland was carried by a considerable majority. Now where are we? 14858 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - Where are those honorable members, from the Government side, who voted for the amendment of the honorable member for Bland? 14858 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Iam,not complaining of their being on my side of the Chamber tonight; but I. complain of their having been on the other side, against the Government, upon the occasion to which I have referred. They knew, however, that they had done wrong, and they have brought forth meat for repentance by voting in favour of striking out words which they assisted to insert. We are fighting for two things. First of all, we propose to place a. time limit upon the preference which is to be given to the States. When speaking upon the amendment moved by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports upon the amendment proposed by the honorable member forBland,on 19th June, I said - I am willing to accept the amendment of the honorable member for Bland, if he will alter it so as to read, " provided that if any State shall by act passed before the30th June,1904, provide for the establishment of "State ironworks." 14858 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - I paired against that amendment with Sir Philip Fysh, and not upon the main amendment of the honorable member for Bland. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The honorable member voted against that, as he says, and we were beaten by a majority of four, the numbers being 20 against 16. Then the division took place upon the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Bland, and it was carried against the Government by 25 votes to 12, or a majority of 13. How does our position to-night differ in the slightest degree from that we occupied on the 19th June? 14859 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - The Government have reconsidered the question, and have decided to take a different course. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Is not our attitude precisely the same as it was ? There is no doubt about it. We were opposed to the absolute limitation of the bonuses for all time to the States, but we were in favour of a preference being, given to the States for a limited time. Upon both these issues we were beaten, and we had time for further consideration. What did we do when we- were defeated ? We reported progress immediately after the amendment was carried against us. Since then we have obtained further information on the subject, and our first object was to remove the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Bland, and carried against us. 14859 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - There is no need to remove it if a preference is to be given to the States for. a, period of two years. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The two points were raised in different ways, and we are similarly raising them now. AVe have succeeded in removing the proviso inserted at the instance of the honorable member for Bland, and we now- find ourselves face to face with a proposal, for which we ourselves voted on the 19th June, giving a preference to the States for a limited time. I admit that there are now stronger reasons for rejecting, that amendment than existed some time ago. I have mentioned these, and 1 have pointed, out the further evidence we have with regard to the unfavorable attitude of the States. 14859 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - The right honorable member said it was- fatal. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I do not think that I went so far. as that, although X spoke strongly. On .Friday last I said - If 'the States are willing to undertake this work, let us give them a reasonable period in which to do so, but do not let us conserve to them the light for all time, and give the private individual no chance. That statement was made in the early part of my speech. 14859 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - That was after the Minister had said that the States would not entertain the idea. What is the use of giving them an opportunity of doing something which they say they will not do 1 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - We cannot tell what may be done in the future. There may be a change in the attitude of the States at any time, and, in view of the wide division of opinion upon this subject, it is only fair that we should endeavour to meet the views of those who believe that there is a likelihood of the States embarking upon the enterprise. I should not be treating the committee fairly if I refused to give an opportunity of the character referred to. I have previously indicated that it is not our intention to bring the bonuses into force immediately, because it is inexpedient that we should play directly into the hands of any particular individuals. We have not departed from the lines previously laid down, and we are found to-day contending foi" practically the same principles that we fought for six weeks ago. 14859 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - But did not attempt to embody in' the Bill. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - That is hardly worthy of the honorable member. 14859 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - It is true. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Under all the circumstances, I. resent the suggestion that there has been any change of front on the part of the Government, and I was sorry to hear the observations made by the honorable member for Moira. He was one of those honorable members who endeavoured to assist us in doing that which we are now proposing to do, namely, to give the States, by way of preference foi" a certain period, a chance to earn the bonus. The honorable member did not hold then, because the proposal was negatived when he voted for it - and that was only six weeks ago - that it was his duty to support the exclusive application of the bonus to private individuals. 14859 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr Kennedy - I stated my reasons then, and I stated them again to-day. 14859 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The honorable member has shown by his vote to-day, for which we thank him, that the attitude we have adopted in resisting the limitation of the bonuses to the States, to the total exclusion of all private enterprise, is the right one. I ask the committee to give fair consideration to this matter, and to recognise that the attitude of the Government has been consistent and just throughout. 14860 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Minister has quoted from Hansard, but it will be apparent to honorable members when . they have the report of the Minister's speech in their hands that on the occasion to which he has referred he was- speaking, not of his intention, but of his belief. He said that he " believed " that the States should conduct such enterprises as that proposed in connexion with the establishment of ironworks, and he suggested that we should give the States a chance to do so. That is what he had always said, but in his hand at that particular moment he held a sheaf of telegrams, which he read later, and from which it appeared that the States had not the slightest intention to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill. Therefore1 what the right honorable member then said with regard to his intention had reference to his past intention. His intention when he spoke was that the whole matter should be left to private enterprise. The right honorable gentleman has referred to his utterances on Friday afternoon, but when honorable members have an opportunity to read the Ilansard report they will see that there is not one line of the context that will convey the impression, that the Minister was then in favour of giving the States one or two years in which to make up their minds. When we pleaded for time, he pointed to the telegrams as conveying the final decree of the States, and he said in so many words that the States had no intention of going on with the enterprise. In the face of that does the Minister mean to tell the committee that on Friday afternoon he was in favour of giving the States an opportunity of reconsidering the matter'! I am sure that when the pages of Ilansard come into the hands of honorable* members they will see how utterly baseless such a contention is. The Minister represented that the States had left him in such a position that he had no option but to declare in favour of granting bonuses for the encouragement of private enterprise. Now he has the hardihood to tell us that he has not changed his mind. What was he fighting for ? Why was he so anxious to recommit the Bill? There was no necessity to recommit the Bill if he had held his present view all through the piece.. I utterly deny that the Minister has treated the committee fairly. I have seen a number of extraordinary gyrations on the part of Ministers, but I am sure that no honorable member has ever witnessed or read of anything equal to the last performance of: the Minister for Trade and Customs. The honorable member for Wentworth has referred to the Government as a committee to record the votes of honorable members, but we do not want even a committee. All we require is a sort of automatic push or pull machine into which we can place our motions and then count our votes. There would be, at least, some stability in such a machine. 14860 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - What does the honorable member want ? 14860 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - We are satisfied with what the Government is now proposing, but what guarantee have we that they will not proceed upon another tack by this time to-morrow? Our position is not to be altered by charging some honorable members on this side of the House with inconsistency. Some honorable members who supported the Government to-day did so for the same reason that actuated them in voting against them on a previous occasion. They wished to kill the Bill, and they were perfectly consistent, and were perfectly within their rights in voting as they did. We do not want the Bill, which has been introduced by the Government for its own purposes. The Government have posed as the guardians and saviours of the people, and have professed to bc anxious to provide work for the unemployed, and to give private enterprise a chance, but when private enterprise had a chance the Government basely threw it over. I am sure that if any member of the syndicate interested in this matter could be permitted to express his opinion regarding the attitude of the Minister, he would use terms a hundred times more harsh than any employed by us. He says that the attitude of the Government to-day is the same as it was upon the 19th June last. That is utterly untrue. 14860 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must withdraw that statement. 14860 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Very well, sir. I withdraw it, and say. that the statement of the right honorable gentleman is not borne out by the facts which I shall place before the committee. Upon the 19th June, the Ministry had not communicated with the Governments of the various States in reference to this matter, and consequently were not in possession of their determinations as they are to-day. Upon that date they did not know whether or not the States intended to embark upon this enterprise, and therefore it was perfectly consistent for them to say they were in favour of allowing the States Governments a certain period during which they should enjoy exclusive rights to the payment of the bonus. But to-day the Ministry know that the States Governments are not ready to nationalize the production of iron. Yet they now urge that we should give to the States which they say have no intention of embarking upon the enterprise a chance to do so. If that is not inconsistent with their attitude upon the 19th June, I do not know what is. Doubtless some honorable members will see their way out of this maze. If they do so it will be more creditable to their ingenuity than to anything else. I shall listen to further explanations from those who support the right honorable gentleman with a certain amount of interest, but not with amusement, because the matter is altogether too serious a one for mirth. As one who believes that the State should control this industry, I have no complaint against the Government for changing their minds in that direction ; but what guarantee have we that they will not again change their minds in the opposite direction? The Minister has said that his attitude to-day is precisely what it was on a former occasion when he was defeated by thirteen votes. The amendment of the honorable member for Bland was rescinded by a majority of six votes. Surely, with such a majority behind him, the Minister can muster enough courage to proceed with the Bill in the form which the committee previously determined it should take. I do not thank heaven for many things; but at least I thank it that I am not a Government supporter, because I can well understand the feelings of disgust, indignation, and subdued fury which must animate honorable members opposite, although it is extremely difficult, when looking at their amiable countenances, to believe that they could be furious at anything. I can, however, understand that they would be furiously indignant at such an extraordinary volte face. Take the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, as an example. On Friday he went away primed with an excellent idea which he had obtained fresh from the Minister. Probably he saw certain persons upon Sunday or Monday, and told them the position that he occupied in relation to this Bill. Now, however, he finds that he does not occupy that position. The action of the Minister does not give him a chance. If I were a Ministerial supporter I should be very loth to follow the crack of the whip. As, however, I am not a Government supporter, I can only say that we can place no reliance upon the promises of a Government, which, as we have seen times out of number, has no policy but that of the greater number of this House - no intention but that which is gathered from their whip, and no idea of statesmanship other than what is seen in the columns of the morning newspapers. 14861 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is travelling outside the standing orders. 14861 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - If what I have said is offensive, I withdraw it. Lacking as they do all necessary qualities of statesmen, the Ministry still essay to lead the first Federal Parliament, where politics were to be lifted up to the heavens, and where superior beings were to wander in polished halls of marble to make laws for a glorious Commonwealth. Between the promise and reality, I am sure that even the most optimistic of men must admit there is a great gulf. I entirely agree with the honorable member for Moira, who has submitted to a great deal from this Government, but has made up his mind to submit to no more. Sir EDWARDBRADDON (Tasmania) - I confess I am immensely surprised that the Minister for Trade and Customs, whom I have always regarded as one possessed of considerable backbone and courage, should have shown himself a mere jelly-fish - a sort of protoplasmic Minister, who is ready to yield at any moment, and upon any point I have supported this Bill earnestly, although with some degree of reluctance. That reluctance has arisen from the fact that with the passage of this measure we also carry the imposition of certain duties upon iron. However, I have supported it, and now that the States are to be allowed a certain period within which they may determine whether or not they will embark upon the production of iron, I can only say that the Bill is of no earthly use to capitalists, and that it cannot effect the purposes for which it was introduced. As I have already announced that Lam opposed to State enterprise in this direction, I shall have the dismal pleasure of voting against the Bill. 14862 KQU Melbourne 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir MALCOLM McEACHARN - I feel that by the action of the Minister I have been placed in a position of considerable difficulty. I certainly did not understand, nor do I think now, that by the use of the words which he has read he intended to indicate his determinations to consent to defer the period when private enterprise should be able to embark upon the iron industry, and participate in the proposed bonus. I feel that if we are going to allow the States twelve months in which to decide this question, the Bill will be rendered valueless. My reading of the position of the Minister is that he came down to this House with various telegrams from the States Premiers to show that they had no intention whatever of embarking upon the enterprise, and that he- therefore wished to recommit the Bill. If there had been any desire upon his part to give the States twelve months in which to decide whether or not they would nationalize the production of iron, why did he not inform those whom he wished to support the Bill of that desire ? Personally, I am in this difficulty - I shall either have to support the proposal to give the States priority of claim for twelve months, or else vote for the rejection of the measure. I have no desire to adopt the latter course, and yetI feel it is equally wrong that we should be asked to postpone for twelve months the period when private individuals shall be allowed to embark upon the iron industry. Had the intention of the Minister been made clear, I should have known how to act. As a Government supporter, I feel that I. have been misled in this matter. 14862 KQP Kennedy 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I am sorry that. I cannot accept the proposal of the Minister for Trade and Customs. Upon a previous occasion he told us that he thought two years was a reasonable time within which to allow the States to decide whether or not they would nationalize the iron industry. If his remarks then were true, they are equally true to-day. I must certainly express my sympathy with the right honorable gentleman in the awkward position in which he finds himself. He is apparently prepared to sacrifice any principle in the Bill if, by so doing, he can catch votes. That is the position which he has adopted all through the consideration of this measure. He has got himself into an awkward position by suggesting, as a compromise, that my amendment should be limited to twelve months in lieu of two years, with the result that a number of supporters have told him that they are practically disgusted with the action of the Government in this matter. That is not a very enviable position for him to occupy. I think that twelve months is altogether too short a period within which to insist that the States must decide this question. No one can seriously regard the telegrams received from the Premiers of the different States as their final decision in this connexion. I do not suppose that the question of whether the industry should be nationalized was even discussed in Cabinet before those replies were sent. I would further remind the right honorable gentleman that it is quite possible for a change of Government to take place in the States at any time, and for the incoming. Ministers to hold quite a different set of opinions from those entertained by their predecessors. Under such circumstances, he did not treat the committee fairly in accepting the communications received from the various States Governments as absolutely final, and in endeavouring to reverse the decision arrived at by the committee the other night. It is very humiliating for the committee to vote in a certain direction to-day, and in an. opposite direction tomorrow. Such a practice is becoming common in this Chamber. If the Minister is agreeable to allow the States twelve months to decide whether or not they will embark upon the iron industry, where is the necessity to proceed with this Bill at the present time? He could drop the measure and revive it next session. 14862 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr Isaacs -Then why did the honorable member propose two years? 14862 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - Because the Government do not feel inclined to drop the Bill. 14862 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr Isaacs - Does the honorable member desire to kill the measure? 14862 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - As far as I am personally concerned I intend to vote against it. The Minister for Trade and Customs has taunted honorable members upon this side of the Chamber with having supported the amendment of the honorable member for Bland for the purpose of killing the Bill ; but I should like to remind him that a large number voted with him upon the last division from similar motives. If the honorable gentleman believes that the State should do the work, where were his principles when he told those who voted for the amendment in order to kill the Bill that he was prepared to carry the measure through without further amendment? His principles were thrown to the winds, merely because he received messages from the Premiers of the various States. The Minister is in a very peculiar position, and he will find that he has wasted a considerable amount of valuable time. He ought to know that there is no possible hope of this Bill becoming law. He has shown that he is prepared to abandon his principles and hand this bonus to a syndicate ; and I shall cast my vote against theBill. Sir WILLIAMMcMILLAN (Wentworth). - I do not want to prolong the debate, but I should like to say that the whole of the speeches clearly show the absolute want of determinative opinion on all sides of the Chamber. There is an absolute chaos of opinion, and neither any State nor any individual will be justified in attempting to start this industry until a further period has elapsed in which the real opinion of the country may be made known. Although perhaps a little humiliating, it would be far better for the Government, as a matter of common sense, to withdraw the Bill. Public opinion may be matured between this and next session, or between now and the election of the next Parliament; but the discussion has been of such a character, and there is such uncertainty as to a possible reversal of opinion in this Chamber, that to my mind it would be impossible for a large capitalist, or even a State, to undertake ironworks until assured by the results of another election that their position was sound and stable. 14863 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - A proposal has been made that the period during which the State shall have preference shall be two years, and I have offered to make it one year. In that action I think I have, to some extent, gone further out of my way than, perhaps, I should have done on calm deliberation ; but I do so for the purpose of giving full effect to any words which. I uttered last Friday - that is the position, and I cannot get away from it. It was not in my mind that an amendment of this sort would be moved, but when my attention is called to what I said, I hold to any promise which may have been made ; no member of the Government would be " worth his salt " who did not do so. Let the position be clear - the Government have offered every concession, and can. go no further. If honorable members will not accept the proposal for a period of one year, we shall vote against a. period of two years. 14863 KJI Indi 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - I am reluctant to advise, but I feel that we are running great risk of losing a very valuable. Bill. I feel extremely perplexed in this matter. There is a. diversity of opinion and a diversity of voting, and. whichever way we decide must have momentous consequences to this continent. I fear very much that in the conflict of opinion amongst its friends the Bill may be lost. I certainly should prefer to see the Bill in; such a form that the State and private individuals alike had the same opportunity. Mr.Poynton. - Does the honorable and learned member for one moment think that private enterprise would take up the industry under such circumstances? 14863 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - It is only in the interests of the Commonwealth that we are attempting legislation, and if the State and private enterprise were placed on the same footing, the Commonwealth would at the earliest possible moment create the greatest amount of benefit. Until the honorable member for Kennedy spoke I was inclined, rather than risk the loss of the Bill, to vote even for his amendment, because I understood that some honorable members on the other side had declared their intention of voting against the Bill if the period were not made two years. But when the honorable member for Kennedy says that he is not a friend of the Bill, and is desirous of preventing its becoming law- 14863 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - I want a State monopoly. 14863 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - As I understand, the amendment of the honorable member for Kennedy is not proposed in any friendly spirit, and I feel that I should not be advancing the cause I wish to serve by supporting it. We all know how extremely important iron and coal are to any country which makes any pretence to becoming an industrial nation. In the current number of; the Windsor Magazine there appears a most important article, which is written by one who is undoubtedly a protectionist - Mr. Ernest E. Williams - but which contains facts and information of vital interest to us all. The writer reminds us that not merely as the possessors of a little territory which we know as the British Isles, but as an Empire, we have a tremendous future before, us, and points out that our hope lies in the development of its mineral resources. If honorable members read that article they will hesitate very much before casting a vote which may lead to the destruction of the Bill before us. Mr. Williams shows that iron, as the material for our machinery, is almost the best measure of our wealth and power, and points out that in 1870 England produced 6,000,000 tons of iron, as against 4,500,000 tons produced by the United States, Germany, and France combined. But in 1901 England and Germany each produced 7,750,000 tons, while the United States produced 15,878,000 tons. We all recollect that Mr. Gladstone ridiculed the idea that the United States, under her Tariff laws, could establish effective means of competing with England in the iron industry. Here, however, is proof of the wisdom of the Tariff provisions of the United States. I should like to read a few words from the article, because it refers directly to these Australian States. This question does not concern Victoria to any great extent as an iron producer. Victoria can hope to benefit from the industry only as a member of the Commonwealth, and, though I take no credit for the circumstance, the votes of the Victorian representatives will be the most unselfish that can possibly be given in any Assembly. 14864 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - That is something new for Victoria. 14864 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - It may be something new for the honorable member for Barrier to recognise the fact. The article, which is entitled "Our Hope of Industrial Dominion," says- As it is impossible to sketch within my limits the . most cursory outlines of the Empire's slumbering wealth, I will speak of these two test products to which I made reference earlier - namely, coal and iron. Then follow observations, with quotations from official sources, to show the extent of what the writer calls the " slumbering wealth " in the States of Australia. He says- There is hardly a province in the Empire which does not give signs of rich and extensive iron deposits. Australasia is full of it ; in three districts of New South Wales alone it is estimated that there are 13,000,000 tons of ore, containing nearly 0,000,000 tons of metallic iron. Speaking of the Cloncurry district of Queensland, Mr. R. L. Jack, the Government geologist, has said: - "The most striking features of the country are mountains of pure specula and magnetic iron ore. . . It is singular to reflect that these deposits, which, if they were located in England, would be colossal fortunes to their owners, are at present absolutely valueless, owing to their geographical position." In Western Australia, so large is the quantity of iron that it is impossible to work accurately with a magnetic compass. Tasmania's prolific iron deposits ceased to be worked after the discovery in the early seventies that the ore contained chromium, but this assumed defect is now declared, by specialists to be an advantage. 14864 JRR 0 0 BRADDON, Edward Sir Edward Braddon - The writer of the article is not very much up-to-date. Those iron deposits of which he speaks are at Ilfracombe, in Tasmania, whereas the biggest deposit, perhaps, in the world is at the Blyth River, in that State. 14864 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - The writer shows that the presence of chromium, so far from being a disadvantage, is now regarded as an advantage. Speaking of coal, he says - And coal is in equal abundance. Of New South Welsh coal the world is already beginning to hear ; and one runs little risk of exaggeration in saying that the present yearly output of some 0,000,000 tons is the merest scratching of the great body of coal which lies waiting for the piCk in New South Wales. Western Australia, again, gives such encouraging promise of coal that the Government has already found it worth while to construct a railway specially for the purpose' of serving one coal-field. I read these extracts for the purpose of emphasizing the necessity of not, by any diversity of opinion on details, losing this valuable measure. I ask honorable members", whatever they do, not by any inadvertence to lose a measure which will ultimately work to the benefit of all Australia. If we can avoid it, I do not want any money to go out of the Commonwealth to private individuals. I much prefer that any one State should keep in its hands the whole profit arising from its mineral deposits, and I shall do nothing to prevent any State obtaining such benefit, or nothing to place a State in a disadvantageous position as compared with private individuals. But . every State in which there are iron and coal deposits has the power to retain those deposits so far as the land has not already been alienated. Every State has the power to dictate the terms on which its citizen's may work the deposits, and while that power remains, wo run no risk, as a Commonwealth, in seeing that the States have the .same opportunities as are given to private individuals. It is misleading to say that we are going to benefit private individuals. Our great primary object is to benefit the people of the Commonwealth as a whole, and if we can only do that by giving inducements to private enterprise as well as to the States, why should we be deterred from taking that course? Why should we deprive ourselves of great benefits merely because some of our citizens may derive advantage? I hope that, whatever happens, we shall not by any slip or accident prevent the development on this continent of an industry which is the mother of the arts and the source of most of the sciences. Mr. BROWN(Canobolas).- I hope that the Minister in charge of the Bill has not given his final ultimatum upon the question under consideration. I am glad to know that he is disposed to consider the request that has been submitted to him, and I hope that he will be able to gee his way to consent to the whole of that request which, under the circumstances, is not an unreasonable one. The honorable and learned member for Indi has pointed out the great importance of the iron industry, and the desirableness of doing everything within reason to encourage it. I. agree with him as to its importance, and I am desirous of taking such a course as will permit of its development on lines that I believe will be in the best interests of the Commonwealth. - We have nationalized our railway systems, and the States Governments are the great consumers of iron. Therefore, I hold that it is necessary that the Commonwealth should nationalize the iron industry, and take in hand the work of producing iron from native ores. If the Government simply limit themselves to the mere production of the iron that is required in respect of railways and defence equipment, they will effect a saving in regard to very extensive works. But it is also within the right of the Commonwealth to endeavour to produce iron, not only for its own special requirements, but for general consumption. Therefore when the question of expending the taxpayers' money arises, and one has to choose between granting bonuses for the purpose of assisting private industry and expenditure through State or Federal channels, as the case may be, I prefer to give my support to expenditure under the supervision of the State or Federal Governments. I should prefer to have a proviso in the Bill limiting the bonuses to the States, so that they should not be made available to private enterprise. I should be willing to let that stand until such time as the people of the States indicated through their Governments that they were not prepared as States, to take up the iron industry. Then I should be agreeable to withdraw any opposition I might have offered to private enterprise taking the matter in hand. But the Minister has asked the committee to rescind the decision deliberately arrived at, and has succeeded in carrying what he desired in that respect. The right honorable gentleman cannot, however, shut his eyes to the fact' that with respect, to this matter we have a very strange combination. On the previous occasion vote's were cast against the proposal of the Government with a view of defeating the Bill, and in the hope that it would be dropped. But, as the Government were not prepared to drop their proposals, the ground has been shifted. A number of votes have been recorded for the Government that were cast against them previously. I want to know whether the Minister for Trade and Customs expects those votes to carry him through ? If so, I venture to prophesy that when the next division takes place he will find that some of those honorable members who previously supported him will vote against him. That conclusion is warranted by the tenor of several of the addresses that have been given. Possibly the Minister hopes to counteract the loss of votes in that direction by the support he gains from the labour corner. I want to see the iron industry established under State supervision. But as the proposal which I support has been defeated I have to face the new position that presents itself. At the outset, I ask the Minister whether he is prepared to insert the two . years' proviso I If so, I am willing to support him in his proposal. But, if he insists upon the twelve months' provision, I consider that he will be simply holding out an invitation to the States that will really mean nothing whatever. I will give my reasons for that opinion. The Minister tells us that the States Governments have indicated that they are opposed to undertaking the iron industry. But so far as I can read the communications that have been received, they are really opposed to taking it up at present. 14866 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - They do not qualify in any way ; they hold out no hope. 14866 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - The right honorable gentleman says that the States Governments do not qualify their statements in any way-, but the impression conveyed to my mind by the communications was that the States Governments were not prepared to take up the industry at present, and that they preferred to see it taken in hand by private enterprise, and supported by Tariff preferences, as well as by bonuses. But I want to invite the Minister's attention to this phase of the question. The New South Wales Government now has in hand the matter of the expiration of the pastoral leases of the northern division which fell in about a couple of years ago. The question is awaiting legislation in respect to future treatment. That legislation was promised last session, but had to give way to other legislation dealing with the western division of the State, which occupied the greater part of the time. The promise made by the New South Wales Government to the people is that this new comprehensive legislation upon the land question shall be the subject engaging the attention of Parliament for the corning session. It is well known that the land question in New South Wales is very difficult and intricate, that to deal with it requires a whole session, and "that there is great difficulty in compressing its consideration even within the limits of a session. If a State Government takes up that question it practically means that the whole of the time at the disposal of Parliament will be occupied for the coming year. It is customary for Parliament to prorogue about Christmas, and not meet again until about May. How, therefore, can the New South Wales Parliament be expected to take any effective step with. regard to the iron industry within the next twelve months? But if the two years' limit is -fixed it will give the people reasonable time to express -their opinions. Further, I should like to remind the Government that within two years this Parliament will have gone to its masters, who, in the meantime, will hove had an opportunity to say whether those who voted for State enterprise or for private enterprise being assisted in this way meet with public approval. I am prepared to support the two years'" proposal, and what is more, I am prepared to assist the Minister in carrying his measure if it be adopted. I am not in the position of being a false friend to the measure. I undertake to give the Bill my support light through if the Minister accepts this proposal. 14866 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - When the honorable member talks of the two years' period, does he mean for the establishment of the industry ? 14866 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - No, two years within which a State shall have the right to take the work in hand, and within which to satisfy the Commonwealth Government that it seriously intends to establish the iron industry. If, at the end of two years, the States Governments intimate that they do not intend to pursue-the work, -I am prepared to let it be done by private enterprise. But I want the people of the States to have a fair 01)pm.tunity of saying whether they want the iron industry to be carried on by the States or by private enterprise. For the reasons I have indicated, twelve months is not a sufficient time within which to get an expression of opinion upon this subject from the. people of New South Wales, whilst two years would, I think, be a fairly reasonable time. If the right honorable gentleman insists upon limiting the time to twelve months, I feel that the greater part of that time will have passed away before the State Parliament will have completed the important work Of land legislation at present .pressing upon its attention. Even if it desires seriously to face this question a session in which it can be dealt with cannot be convened before the twelve months is up, and that will be used as an argument against dealing with it at all. All I ask is, that the people of the State shall have a reasonable opportunity to express their wishes on this matter, and that we shall not be tied down to expressions of opinion received from persons who are Premiers today, but who may not be Premiers tomorrow or in a little time hence. If a period of two years is provided for, I shall assist the right honorable gentleman to cany the Bill. But if he refuses that, the position I have to face is whether an insufficient time, like twelve months should induce me to support it, or whether it would be wiser to knock the Bill out and leave it an open question until we can deal with it with a greater amount of information as to the feelings of the people upon the subject than we have at the present time. Mr. HUGHES(West Sydney). - I desire to express my regret that I should have done the right honorable the Minister for Trade and Customs so much injustice as to charge him . with having changed his mind from last Friday. I find that my diatribe in so far as that is concerned was inaccurate and ' uncalled for. I find that it was on Thursday .the .right honorable gentleman expressed the opinion which I said he expressed on Friday. I therefore have to withdraw the -statement I made. 14867 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I acknowledge the withdrawal of the honorable member, but if he looks into the matter a little more he will find that it is necessary for him to go still further back. Mr. CONROY(Werriwa). - -I should like to know exactly the attitude the Government take upon this amendment. At one minute we are told they are going to agree to it and at the next that they are not. They now appear to be trying to find out from the committee in some mysterious way whether a provision for two years' time can be carried against them or not. Surely Ministers should be able1 to say what they intend to do 1 Is the right honorable gentleman going to stand by his proposal for twelve months? Apparently, if he finds that there is not quit? a sufficient number to carry the proposal for two years, he will urge the proposal for twelve months, and if he finds that there will not be a sufficient number to carry that proposal he will -throw it over also - just as before, when he discovered that he had six votes to the good, he found that no explanation was needed as to why he changed his opinion. I may be discussing a proposal for two years when the Government, in order -to -save appearances, will accept one year eleven months and twenty-seven days. The Minister appears to be quite indifferent as to -the fate of the Bill, provided he can retain the appearance of carrying some measure which will come under the same heading. Honorable members who are supporting this proposal for a two years' preference for the State, argue, first of all, that from the very nature of it the iron industry would be practically a monopoly, and it should not therefore fall into the -hands of private individuals. If it is in the nature of a monopoly, that is no doubt a sound argument in support of the contention that the -States should take it up, but the Minister says that he has certain replies from the State Governments, and that they are not going to deal with it. It is for this reason the light honorable gentleman proposes to hand it over entirely to private individuals. Honorable members ask for a period of preference for the States, and from their point of view I do not think the two years asked for is .too long. It will be some months before any State Parliament can discuss the . subject and decide whether or not it will deal with it. If the State Parliaments decide to deal with it, some months will necessarily elapse before the . undertaking can be got into working order. That is a sufficient reason for asking for a period of two years. There is another argument in 'favour of the proposal in the fact that within the next two years general elections will take place in two or three of the -States, and it may be that a State Parliament which at the present time refuses to deal with this matter will then be ready to deal with it. Another argument may be adduced on -behalf of the Commonwealth Parliament itself. When the Commonwealth is being asked to vote away a very large sum of money -without authority from 'the people and without in any -way .consulting the electors, it is only -right that some care should be exercised. Let honorable members look at the effect upon the men who are engaged in the foundry and machine trades for which iron is the raw material, if the industry falls into the hands of private individuals who determine to make -the most of the monopoly they will have. If the State conducted the industry arguments could be brought to bear to show why the price of the raw material, pig-iron, should be kept as low as possible. In that case other -States would bring arguments to "bear upon the particular State in which the industry was being carried on. They would be able-to point out that in the interests of the men engaged in their machine shops and foundries it was absolutely necessary that their raw material should be-kept as low in price as possible. I can leave it to the committee to say whether, if the industry were in the hands of a private company, those engaged in the trades to which I have referred could go to the company and say, "This iron which you manufacture is the raw material for industries employing twenty men where you only employ one." The answer would-be, " We are established here under an Act of Parliament in which it I was promised that bonuses to the amount of £250,000 would be paid in connexion with this industry, and that promise must be carried out." I think these people would be entitled to contend that a succeeding Parliament was, to a certain extent, bound by the agreement made. Holding that view, it is perfectly clear that, though I am strongly opposed to the Bill, I must try to insist upon a delay that will give time not only to one person, but to a great many persons to come in and take advantage of its provisions. Let me give another argument which must appeal to those who hold that private enterprise should undertake this work. I cannot but think that two years is not an unreasonable time within which to advertise in the markets of the world an offer of this kind. 14868 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - The honorable and learned member is wasting our time and the time of the country. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - It is far better to take up the time of the country than to take money out of the pockets of the people either to give it to a State or to individuals. If honorable members opposite are fretting because they are not able to get this money for certain people I can understand it. 14868 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - I ask whether the honorable and learned member is using language which is in accordance with parliamentary usage, and in order ? 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member must confine his remarks to the question before the Chair. I must again call the attention of the honorable and learned member to the standing orders, by which he, as well as other honorable members, are bound. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I can easily put myself in order, sir, as you very well know. 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member must not use a threat to the Chair. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Then I move- That the Chairman do now leave the Chair. 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Under the circumstances, I refuse to accept the motion. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - You must accept it. I insist that you do. That is a threat if you like. 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Will the honorable and learned member resume his seat ? 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Will the Chairman speak in a different tone ? 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have asked the honorable and learned member on several occasions to confine his remarks to the amendment before the committee. He must do so. If he disobeys my ruling, I shall ask him to discontinue his speech. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I have my remedy, though I am very loth to avail myself of it. I was not allowed to finish my sentence just now. I was showing how we get here men who, though trained in a study which should quicken their minds and invigorate their understandings- 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member is repeating his offence. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - It is not an offence. I am perfectly within my rights. That is the ruling I dispute. 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - As the honorable and learned member has disobeyed the Chair, I order him to discontinue his speech. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I move that your ruling be dissented from. 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member can only move that he be further heard. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Mr. Chairman- 14868 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Will the honorable and learned member resume his seat? I have no other recourse now but to name the honorable and learned member for disregarding the authority of the Chair. 14868 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - I trust that the honorable and learned member for Werriwa will relieve me of the painful duty which otherwise I am called upon by the standing orders to discharge, by apologizing to the Chairman, thus removing the whole cause of the trouble. We must respect the rulings of the Chairman, in whom we have every confidence. The honorable and learned member may consider the ruling a wrong one, but I am sure that he does not suspect either the motives or the impartiality of the Chairman. 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - If I did not sit down as rapidly as the Chairman thought I should, it was not from a desire to affront him, either personally or in his official position. I was annoyed at being interrupted. 14868 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Oh ! 14868 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I will deal with the Minister in a moment. I am not receiving shares for supporting the Bill. However, I shall not continue the line of argument upon which I was engaged. I moved - That the Chairman do now leave the Chair, and I submit that I was in order. I am perfectly willing to obey the command of the Chairman to resume my seat. I am not aware that any expression fell from my lips which was insulting to the Chairman, but if he mentions anything I said which he considers a reflection upon him, I shall withdraw it. 14869 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - Is the Chairman satisfied? 14869 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It is not for the Chairman alone to be satisfied, but for the committee. I put it to the committee that as the honorable and learned member has apologized, the naming should be withdrawn. There being no expression of dissent, I withdraw it. 14869 KIQ Brisbane 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr MACDONALD-PATERSON - I do not wish to unduly prolong the debate, but there is a principle involved in the action of the Minister for Trade and Customs this afternoon which does not commend itself to my political intelligence, and I therefore, wish to say a few words on the matter. On a former occasion the honorable member for Bland carried an amendment restricting the granting of bonuses to the Governments of States, and this afternoon, after a debate which has extended over some days, the Minister succeeded in rescinding that amendment. Now, however, we are asked to consider another amendment which, though different from, is very similar to the proviso which has just been struck out, and the Minister has swung round as quickly as a gale at sea, and proposes to accept what the committee thought they had decided, when agreeing to his amendment this afternoon, not to accept. How am I, in this chaotic presentment of circumstances, to exercise my intelligence and experience on behalf of my constituents and my country ? It must be remembered that this is not a Parliament of a State, but a. much higher political body. The kernel of what I desire to speak about - the lack of party cohesion and party sympathy - has been the subject of former speeches. Honorable members will remember that I have before called attention to the absence of caucuses. I ask Ministers if there has ever been a caucus held by the party which is keeping the Government in office? Not the ghost of one. 14869 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - They think that all they have to do is to crack the whip and the party will respond. 14869 KIQ 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr MACDONALD-PATERSON - I am the quietest member of this House, but my political vitality and instincts rise in rebellion against what has taken place in this chamber within the last few hours. The action of the Minister is an outrage upon those who have consistently supported them in power. 14869 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The honorable and learned member should have listened to the Minister's speech onFriday. 14869 KIQ 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr MACDONALD-PATERSON - I did listen to it, and though I have always listened to his speeches with pleasure, I say that this is not a question of speech-making. A great principle is involved. The Ministry ask us now to vote for what they were originally opposed to, and therefore I think it is about time that some of us retired from our present position, as supporters of the Government. We have given the Ministry consistent support, and have very frequently abstained from expressing our opinions in order to facilitate business, and many of us find it difficult to comprehend the action of the Government in ignoring the existence of their followers. A spirit of tyranny exists amongst Ministers worse than that which characterized the Cæsars. The Emperors of Rome did take some of their supporters into their counsels, but the Ministry treat their followers with scorn. 14869 KDD South Sydney FT 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - The amendment proposed by the honorable member for Kennedy affords me an opportunity to place myself in the position which I have desired to occupy from the outset. As I intimated in my speech upon the second reading of this Bill, I am not in accord with those free-traders who consistently oppose bonuses. I believe that they offer the best means of affording assistance to the iron industry, but I am afraid that we may ultimately find that we shall have to pay too dearly for our whistle, in the shape of the further protection that it may be necessary to extend to the industry. The amendment will meet my views far more closely than did the proposal of the honorable member for Bland, under which private enterprise would have been entirely blocked. I do not agree with those free-traders who are opposed to all forms of State enterprise of this character, nor do I think that the position they assume is an entirely logical one. One honorable member contended that the State administration of the railways had not been entirely successful, even under railway commissioners. I think, however, that the railways in some of the States have been very successfully managed indeed ; and so far as tramway management is concerned, I think that any comparison between the private and State-owned systems in operation in Melbourne and Sydney respectively must result in favour of the latter. No tramway enterprise in Australia has been so successful as that of Sydney. 14870 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - The Sydney tramways return only 3.56 per cent. upon the capital outlay. 14870 KDD FT 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - The honorable member seems to think that the Sydney tramways are not successful because they only return 3.56 per cent., but he must admit that they give the cheapest and best travelling facilities in Australia. 14870 KQU 0 0 MCEACHARN, Malcolm Sir Malcolm McEacharn - That is not correct. 14870 KDD FT 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - It is in the character of the facilities afforded to the travelling public that the public of Sydney derive the full benefit. If the tramways return more than sufficient to pay the interest on the money borrowed for their construction, and afford cheap travelling facilities, and tend to improve the value of suburban properties, they must be regarded as successful. 14870 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - There is no analogy between providing travelling facilities and establishing the iron industry. 14870 KDD FT 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - It is rather late in the day to debate the abstract question of State versus private enterprise. I firmly believe that the whole world is progressing in the direction of the State control of all works of general utility, and I do not regret that this principle is being extended, because so long as we develop in that direction slowly enough, no danger need be apprehended. The manufacture of the iron is an enterprise upon which the State Government might fairly embark. Up to the present time, private capitalists have not entered upon it, and as we all wish to see it established, we might legitimately trust the States to undertake it. By adopting the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Kennedy, we shall, I believe do good in all directions, and I cannot see why the Government should oppose it. The Minister has told us that he has no objection to the States entering upon this industry, and his only reply , to those who were content to leave the matter to the States was that the States Governments had intimated that there was no immediate probability of their taking the matter up. Upon this ground, and no other, he declined to restrict the enterprise to State control. It must be admitted, however, that the replies of certain Premiers who hold office at present cannot be taken to represent the voice of the people. If we allow the States two years in which to make up their minds, we can settle the question of whether the people desire that another socialistic experiment shall be made, or that the establishment of ironworks shall be left to private enterprise. To that extent we are bound to consult the people in each of the States. The honorable and learned member for Parkes suggested that some constitutional difficulty might arise if we granted bonuses to certain States and taxed others in order to provide the necessary money. I protested at one time against the imposition of customs duties that were not intended for revenue, but for purely protective purposes, as being opposed to the spirit of the Constitution. The bonuses now proposed are nothing but the converse of the protective duties provided for in the Tariff ; and if it is wrong to tax the people of one State in order to secure the establishment of the manufactures in another, it must be equally wrong to impose protective duties upon all the States for the benefit of the manufacturers of Victoria. Another advantage of the proposal which we are now considering is, that if we allow the States two years within which to decide whether they will embark upon the manufacture of iron, we shall probably not be called upon to provide the funds necessary for the bonuses for at least another year. This delay will enable us to make more suitable financial arrangements than would otherwise be possible. The Government have supplied us with no data upon which we can determine whether the circumstances of the Commonwealth will enable us to pay these large bonuses. At any rate we might well defer the consideration of this measure for one or two years. I cannot understand how, in the light of his previous utterances, the right honorable gentleman in charge of the Bill can oppose an amendment in the direction of placing the iron industry under State control. If he is sincere in this matter he will surely agree to allow a reasonable time to. elapse within which pressure can be brought to bear upon the States' Governments to induce them to take up this work. If they still decline to do so, our position will then be no worse, and we shall be able to consider this Bill with a much better knowledge of the facts than we have at present. 14871 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I think that I am entitled to say another word or two for a variety of reasons, one of which is the interest that I have taken in this Bill from first to last, and which I do not think any honorable member will venture to dispute. I have done what I could for the purpose of making the position of the Government as clear as is the noonday sun. Any honorable member who has been in the Chamber during the debates upon this question must agree that we left no room for doubt that above all things we desired to witness the early establishment of the iron industry. That was the chief object which we had in view. We did not fail to indicate that we should prefer to see the industry established by a State on behalf of all its people rather than by any company, which, however large, could not hope to rival the State industry in extent or in the area over which the benefits of the concession would be distributed. Does any honorable member suggest that we did not speak plainly in that connexion ? I know nothing which I have omitted to do, and which could have been done, to insure the successful passing of the Bill upon those lines. I ask the honorable member for South Sydney - and I do not speak in the slightest degree with intent to leave any cause for regret - what is his position in regard to this matter? To-day he practically reproaches us with the fact that the Bill is not in the best shape. That is the reproach which he ventures to cast upon the Government of the day. I tell him that it is not our fault; it is his. We proposed the very thing which to-day he advocates, and in each instance he voted against it. Here it is recorded in black and white, on the 19th of June, page 13941 of Hansard. Upon the division which took place as to whether a preference of two years should be given to the States to undertake the work if they so pleased, the Government supporting it and doing all they could for the purpose of carrying it, we find it recorded that the vote of the honorable member for South Sydney was cast against us. 14871 KDD FT 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - That is right. 14871 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Of course, it is right as a quotation, but is it right when the honorable member rises in his place and reproaches us - as he has done to-night - for not moving in a certain direction? I say that the fault, at least, is his. We tried to do so weeks ago, and he did his best for the purpose of preventing our desires from being carried out. Similarly as regards the question of confining the Bill to the States. We voted against that proposal, and he voted in favour of it. Under such circumstances, how does it lie in his mouth to reproach us. The honorable and learned member for Brisbane has said that the Government have turned round, and that he cannot conceive of any reason for it. Of course he cannot if he is absent from the Chamber and does not know what is going on. We have not held caucuses, and I do not know that I believe in them. 14871 KIQ 0 0 MACDONALD-PATERSON, Thomas Mr Macdonald-Paterson - The Government are not going bo tyrannise over me. 14871 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - We have no desire to tyrannise. We believe that open debate is in many respects preferable to secret caucuses, and we plead guilty to the fact that we have not held caucuses of the character to which he referred. 14871 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald -but the Minister has written to honorable members asking them to support him upon this measure. 14871 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON -Why should I not do so ? Does that act constitute a caucus ? If a Minister is to be refused the liberty of writing to Government supporters calling their attention to arguments in favour of any Bill, we have arrived at a pretty state of things. But I do not think that time has come yet. As regards the statement of the honorable and learned member for Brisbane that he never heard of our proposal to restrict priority to the States to a period of years, I wish to say that we attempted to give effect to it in this House two or three weeks ago. 14871 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - And abandoned it. 14871 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - We did not abandon it ; we were beaten. As regards those who are really interested in this industry' I sympathize deeply with the remarks of the honorable and learned member for Indi. I put it again - "Let us be careful that we do not, upon a matter of detail, Split those who are in favour of the cause, and lose that which we desire to see carried out." No doubt there are various ways of injuring a Bill. We have had instances in this Chamber of honorable members voting upon the same side when there has been absolutely no sympathy between them in the attainment of a common object. There are members who voted to confine the object of the Bill to the States, but who had not the slightest desire to see it carried. 14872 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - Now the Minister wishes to use those votes to defeat the decision of the committee. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I desire to use them to prevent the Bill from being made a farce. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Did not the Minister promise that he would put the Bill through upon the lines of the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Bland? 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I did. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Now the right honorable gentleman reverses his decision. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Yes, when I find that there is no reasonable prospect of the States embarking upon the industry at an early date. When the facts are not found to be as I fondly hoped they would, I should be worse than a dolt if I did not, to some extent, alter my attitude to meet the newly-revealed condition of affairs. The Government have given a reason for their actions, and the committee, I am happy to say, have supported them. Ought we now upon a mere matter of detail - the question of the period within which the States must avail themselves of the privileges conferred by the Bill - to risk losing it altogether ? I hope we shall not be guilty of any such egregious folly, and I do ask honorable members who really desire to see the enterprise undertaken - preferably by the States, but who wish to see it established in any circumstances - not to lend themselves to the wishes of those who have no sympathy with the measure before us. Mr. McDONALD(Kennedy).- Throughout his remarks the right honorable gentleman has not told the committee what are his intentions. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I said before the adjournment for dinner that I intended to oppose giving the States two years' priority, but was willing to consent to granting them one year. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The Minister is therefore going back upon his original proposal. When he is prepared to accept one year, why cannot he lay the Bill aside until next session. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable member is entirely opposed to the Bill. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I am opposed to allowing any one to embark upon the enterprise other than the States. The right honorable gentleman told us that he would rather see the States undertake the work. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I said so, and I do not want to qualify my statement one bit. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The right honorable gentleman endeavours to qualify a good many of his remarks. He says he believes in the States undertaking this work, and adds a " but," which nullifies all his previously expressed opinions. He has been so anxious to get this measure through - for what reason I do not know - that he has actually gone to the trouble of writing to a number of honorable members, asking them to support it. 14872 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Did he send a printed circular ? 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - No, I saw a communication in his own handwriting, asking an honorable member to support this Bill. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Who are the men ? Out with the names. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The right honorable gentleman does not deny it. A few moments ago he said that he did not believe in secret caucuses. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Out with it - to whom did I write? Was it not to Mr. Watkins? 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - That is one, is it? 14872 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - Why should he not write to them ? 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Who are the others ? 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The right honorable gentleman knows to whom he wrote. I do not object to his writing to them. 14872 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable member is endeavouring to make something out of it. Let him show me that I wrote to any one whom I had not the right to address in terms of the greatest friendship. 14872 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I only wish to show how anxious the right honorable gentleman is to carry this Bill in its original form. Yet when the amendment of the honorable member for Bland was carried, he asked honorable members to assist him in passing the measure in that form, so as to give a knock-out blow to those who had opposed it. Personally, I was agreeable to do that. But there has been a change of front on the part of the Minister, from what cause I do not know. Perhaps it is due to the fact; - as was pointed out by the honorable and learned member for Werriwa - that some of the newspapers have been successful in influencing certain members to reverse their previous votes. What I complain of is the twisting and turning about on the part of the Minister. Such conduct is being carried so far that we do not know from hour to hour what the Government policy is. 14873 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the honorable member not to pursue that line of argument further. 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I hope the amendment will be carried and that honorable members will not allow themselves to be whipped into line for the sake of certain people who specially desire this concession. I understand that if the amendment is carried it may interfere with certain individuals who have almost floated companies to carry on this industry. Mr.Brucesmith. - Floated them in their own interest. 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I do not object to people floating companies in their own interest; probably I should do the same if I were in their position. But it is not a proper thing to do ; and the passing of the Bill at the present moment will only assist those people to float their companies to greater advantage. If a company had been formed, and were prepared to carry on the industry straight away, I do not know that I should have objected so strongly ; but neither the Federal Government nor the States Governments ought to grant concessions to assist people in floating companies to greater advantage. I gave a fair illustration the other night, which I think can be borne out by the honorable member for Melbourne. The Chillagoe concession was the means of enabling certain individuals in Melbourne to make a considerable amount of money, leaving the " baby to be nursed " by others. The Chillagoe syndicate could not have made the thousands of pounds they did had it not been for the concessions from the Government, and similar results will follow the granting of the concession now proposed. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - It is abominable to have suggestions made in regard to letters written by Ministers to honorable members, and I cannot understand why such allusions should be made by the honorable member for Kennedy. Surely Ministers have a right to communicate with whom they please. Does the honorable member suggest that the letters were such as ought not to have been written ? References of the kind should not be made unless the documents are produced and some charge formulated. I have written to honorable members, amongst them the honorable member for Newcastle and the honorable member for Bland. Mr.Watson. - The Minister did write to me, but there was nothing in the letter to which anybody could object. 14873 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr Kennedy - I am not objecting to the contents of the letters. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Then, why should the honorable member talk about the letters? These references are indulged in with the object of strengthening the case of the honorable member, and of throwing dirt at the Government, and if they mean anything they mean a suggestion of infamy, which no man worthy to be called a man ought to make unless he is prepared to produce the letters and sheet home a charge. The reason the honorable member has not made a charge is that he cannot do so. I never held conversations with honorable members, or wrote letters of which I have reason to be ashamed ; and it is too bad that such conduct should be indulged in for the purpose of discrediting Ministers. Mr. McDONALD(Kennedy).- I am rather surprised at the heat shown by the Minister. There is probably more in the letters than honorable members seem to think. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Produce the letter of which you spoke. 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I have not the letter. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Then let any honorable member who has the letter produce it. 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I did not refer to either of the two honorable members who have been mentioned. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Who was it ? 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I shall not tell the right honorable gentleman. When I said that these letters had been written, I did not impute any motive to the Minister. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Then why mention the letters? 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I said that the right honorable gentleman was very anxious to get this measure through. 14873 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I have shown that anxiety in the House. 14873 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - And as evidence of that anxiety I said that the Minister had written letters to certain honorable members, and I mentioned the case of which I had knowledge. 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - The honorable member means a lot more, but he has not the pluck to say what he means. 14874 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - There is no need for the right honorable gentleman to get so heated. I should not have mentioned the letters had the Minister not said he did not believe in secret caucus meetings. It was then I asked about the writing of the letters, which I regard as equal to the holding of any secret meeting. 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Who was the honorable member to whom I wrote ? 14874 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I shall not satisfy the Minister's curiosity. As to manliness, when I do anything of an unmanly character 1 ask the right honorable gentleman to remind me of it. I do not propose to take lessons in manliness from him. 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - It is not that the honorable member does not need them. 14874 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - That may be so. There are some people who need lessons and know it, and others who equally need them but do not know it. Amongst the latter is probably the right honorable gentleman. 14874 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I think this has gone far enough. Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added - put. The committee divided. 20 26 Majority ... ... ... 6 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Mr. WATSON(Bland). - I understood the Minister to say that he would insert some words providing for a period of twelve months. 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - What I said, plainly, was that if honorable members would accept a period of twelve months, I would make a proposal to that effect. 14874 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - What does that mean ? 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - There was some dispute as to what we should do. A. proposal was made for a period of two years, and I offered to make it twelve months, but the offer was not accepted. 14874 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I did not understand the Minister to say what he has just indicated. 14874 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I think the honorable member heard what I said. 14874 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I understood that the Minister was going to be consistent with the attitude he took up on Friday. He is reported in the proofs of Hansard, which have not yet been published, as saying that he intended to give the States a prior opportunity to take up the iron industry. Now he puts it forward that that statement was merely an offer of a compromise as against the two years proposal. I certainly did not understand it as. such, and I do not know that any other honorable member did. If the Minister has become alarmed at the probable defection of some of his more prominent conservative supporters, it is a different matter, but my impression was that he would give the committee an opportunity of voting for twelve months as the time within which the States could take up the proposal. Further than that he emphasized that view. I think I remember the right honorable gentleman saying that he would support a proposal for giving the States a twelve months option. 14874 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - If so, he could have moved an amendment. 14874 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - The proposal could have been made either as an addendum to the clause or as a new clause. The committee should have an. opportunity of voting on the suggestion the Minister put forward. I do not think twelve months is sufficient time to enable the people of the States to: be consulted on the matter, and to express their opinion clearly and distinctly. If the Bill is to go through, I prefer some such restriction as will give the people time to turn round sooner than have the Bill passed in its present shape. It is due to the committee that the Government should express clearly what they meant a little while ago. 14875 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - There seems to be a little warmth whenever we come to a question of recollection. Therefore, it would be well to defer the further consideration of the Bill for the present. Under the circumstances it would be better to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Progress reported. 14875 bill 14875 KIN Hume Protectionist Minister for Home Affairs 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - When we last dealt with the Electoral Bill last week, I said that I would submit the whole measure to a careful examination, so as to make it as complete as possible before it left this Chamber to be returned to the Senate. I have gone through the whole Bill with the Parliamentary Draftsman, and I shall have to move a good many amendments, which are, for the most part, more technical than otherwise, though one or two are of importance. The course I propose to take is to go into committee again for the reconsideration of the clauses in which amendments have to be made. I do not think this reconsideration will occupy much time. I move - That the Bill he recommitted to a Committee of the whole House for the reconsideration of clauses 33, 47, 80, 98a, 90, . 105, 114, 114b, 130, 146, 173, 174, 178, 197, 197a,197e, 197f, 197q, Forms K, M, N, Q, and R, and new clause 19a. 14875 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I wish to have a few other clauses recommitted for the purpose of assisting the Minister. I desire to have the Bill made as perfect as possible. I move- That clauses108,142,164, 165,197,213, and Form G be also recommitted. Mr. BATCHELOR(South Australia).I move - That clauses 43 and 74 and Form P be also recommitted. 14875 KYD South Australia 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The amendments to be proposed by the Minister have not been circulated for a sufficient period to give honorable members an opportunity of seeing whether they cover all the objections to the Bill. I am under the impression that the Bill requires two new schedules. I understand that there is no schedule providing for the issue of writs by either the Speaker or the President of the Senate. The Constitution provides that, at certain times writs may be issued by either the President or the Speaker, and there needs to be a form for the purpose. I understand also that by certain powers we are proposing to take under this Bill, we are usurping State rights in connexion with elections in certain cases. I do not know whether the honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, has included the clauses raising that question. 14875 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn -It will be raised on schedule G. 14875 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - This is not the first occasion on which this kind of thing has occurred, and I think it is very objectionable to introduce amendments without giving honorable members a sufficient time for their consideration before the Bill is recommitted to deal with them. As so very few honorable members really know what clauses ought to be recommitted, I suggest that it would be better that the whole Bill should be recommitted. 14875 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - If there is found to be anything special to do, it will be easy to further recommit before the Bill leaves the Chamber. 14875 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON -With that assurance, I shall not raise any further objection. 14875 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I point out to the Minister that there was an amendment made in clause 8 permitting a polling place to be outside of an electorate. This was done for reasons which I gave before that amendment was accepted, and I understood that the Bill was to be brought into conformity with it. The clauses which the Minister proposes to recommit do not cover the clauses which require to be verbally amended in consequence of the amendment made in clause 8. Does the honorable gentleman wish that I should move the recommittal of those clauses? 14875 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It is stated to me by the draftsman that clause 26, where the word " for " is used, gives the necessary power to carry out the honorable member's proposal, and that is the reason I have not asked that the clauses to which he has referred should be recommitted. 14876 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I am willing to accept that if in committee it is found to be the case, but in the meantime I had better move the recommittal of the half-dozen clauses affected. 14876 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - If there is found to be any doubt about it, I shall not let the Bill go without dealing with the matter. 14876 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The trouble is that I cannot call attention to these clauses in committee unless they are recommitted. I therefore move: - That clauses 7, 9, 27, 106, 140a, JOI, and .172 be also recommitted. 14876 009MD Ballaarat Protectionist Attorney-General 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN . - If the matter with which the honorable member desires to deal has reference to the proposal to vote for an electorate instead of in an electorate, I can assure him that it is provided for. If the honorable member will look at clause 26 he will see that the expression " for an electorate " is used. Under that clause it will be possible to appoint such polling places for each division as may be considered to be necessary. 14876 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - Yes ; but there are other clauses which require to be consequentially amended. 14876 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I should like to see them before passing an opinion, but am under the impression that clause 26 is ample to cover all the honorable member desires there. Mr. SYDNEYSMITH (Macquarie).The Minister in charge of the Bill promised to recommit clause lol, relating to voting for the Senate. 14876 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - No. We had a full debate upon that extending over hours. 14876 L2I Macquarie FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - If the honorable member cares to look . up Hansard, he will find that the Minister promised the honorable member for Werriwa' that the clause would be recommitted. The matter was decided in a very small House. I move - That clauses .151 and 152 be also recommitted. 14876 F4R Bland 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I trust the House will not agree to recommit clause 151. We debated the question as to how electors should vote for the Senate . during almost a whole day. We finally came to a decision one way, and now the honorable member desires to go into the whole ' question again. It is quite fair to recommit clauses in connexion with which some matter may have slipped through, or where some necessary consequential amendment has to be considered, but I see no wisdom in going over the whole ground of the Electoral Bill again. I might with just as much reason ask the House to recommit the clauses dealing with voting by post. It is not fair to recommit clauses involving large questions of principle which have been debated hour after hour, and I shall divide the House on the proposal to recommit clause 151. Question - That the Bill be recommitted to a committee of the whole House for the reconsideration of clauses 7, 9, 27, 33, 43, 47, '74, SO, 98a, 99, 105, 106, 108, 114,, 114b, 130, 140a, 142, 146, 152, 161, 164, 165, 172, 173, 174, 178, 197, 197a, 197e, 197f, 197q, 213, Forms G, K, M, N, P, Q, and R of the Schedule, and for the reconsideration of new clause 19a - resolved in the affirmative. 14876 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I pointed, out that the Government have already agreed to recommit clause 151, and I trust that the proposal will be' agreed to .without a division. The question was decided when there was not a full attendance of members present, and in this democratic country what we are anxious to do is to ascertain the wishes of the representatives of the people, when there is a full attendance of members present. If the full sense of the committee had been . taken upon this matter I should not urge its reconsideration. I understand that many honorable members are anxious that the question should come before them again, and I hope an opportunity will be afforded honorable members in a full House to say what they really think upon the subject. 14876 L2G Wentworth 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - It is rather an unusual course for the honorable member for-Bland to object to the recommittal of this clause when the Government have given their sanction to its recommittal. 14876 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - What I said was that I should not oppose it. 14876 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - When the Minister in charge of a Bill says that he will not oppose the recommittal of a clause, it means that, so far as he is concerned, he agrees to its recommittal. I do not anticipate that there will be any long debate upon the subject if the clause is recommitted. Of course the honorable member for Bland will be quite within his right in insisting upon a vote ; but it will be very curious treatment of the honorable member for Macquarie if there is any opposition to the recommittal of the clause. 14877 KQP Kennedy 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - If there is to be no debate upon the matter when the clause is recommitted, we might as well take the division now. If honorable members cannot carry the recommittal of the clause, they will not be able to carry the amendment they desire to make. I do not altogether object to the recommittal, but it is not wise to recommit clauses merely for the purpose of further discussion when there is no possible hope that any amendment of them will be carried. If there is not some probability of the previous decision arrived at being reversed, we might just as well refuse to recommit the clause. Mr. BATCHELOR(South Australia).I join with the honorable member for Bland in objecting altogether to the recommittal of this clause. It involves a matter of principle which was debated here for a whole day. A final decision was arrived at upon it after one of the most exhaustive discussions which have taken place on this Bill. There was a good attendance of members present, and even a much better attendance than usual, and all the votes were accounted for. I ask whether there is going to be any finality to the discussion of this Bill? I feel as strongly about some matters upon which I and those who think with me were defeated, as honorable members can feel about this clause, but I do not ask for the recommittal of the clauses in which I am concerned. I think we ought not to be continually debating matters of principle which have been previously discussed and decided, in the hope that some honorable member will change his mind. 14877 KED Moira 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr KENNEDY - In my opinion, the whole Bill should be recommitted if it is thought desirable to recommit clauses which have been fully discussed and dealt with, as this has. The only clauses which should be recommitted are those upon which finality was not reached at a previous stage, and in regard to which the Minister promised to bring down further proposals. I shall oppose the recommital, in the interests of despatch. Question - That clause 151 be added to the clauses recommitted - resolved in the affirmative. In Committee(Second Recommittal) : Clause 7 - There shall be a divisional returning officer . . . charged with the duty of giving effect to this Act within his division..... 14877 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I move - That the words " or for " be inserted after the word " within." Clause 8 was amended so that in certain cases polling places may be proclaimed outside the division which they are intended to serve. Thus, it may be more convenient to have a polling place for a division in a township which lies just outside the borders of that division than within the division, while the amendment will also provide for a practice which has prevailed in Sydney, where a polling place has been proclaimed at the terminal jetty for the electors of an adjoining electorate coming from the various river suburbs at which the ferry-steamer has touched. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 9 and 27 consequentially amended, and agreed to. 14877 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Perhaps the Chairman will make any further consequential amendments that may be necessary ? The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Salmon). - As I take it to be the wish of the committee, I will do so. Clause 33 (Persons entitled to have their names on roll). 14877 KIN Hume Protectionist Minister forHome Affairs 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I move - That the following words be added, " Provided that any senator or member of the House of Representatives shall, if he so desires, he entitled to have his name placed on and retained on the roll for the division in which he lived at the time of his election instead of the roll for the division in which he lives." This proviso is added so that the names of members of this Parliament who are compelled, in the performance of their duties, to live where it is in the habit of meeting, may not have their names struck off the rolls for the divisions which they represent. Some honorable members who live in Melbourne have already been threatened with that penalty. 14877 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The need of this proviso has been brought about by the use of the word " lives," throughout the Bill, in place of the word "resides." 14877 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No ; the reason for it arose before the Bill was framed. 14878 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The word " resides " has a very different meaning from the word " lives." A Judge would hesitate to say that a member resided in Melbourne, although he might live here. The Minister, by this proviso, is giving members of this Parliament the option of having their names enrolled either in Melbourne or for a division in another State. I appeal to him to substitute the word "resides" for the word " lives" throughout both this Bill and the Franchise Act. The word "lives" is not used in any Electoral Act with which I am acquainted. 14878 K8L Barrier 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I am in sympathy with the purpose of the amendment, but I should like to know how it will work. It will, of course, not affect the State electoral rolls, but suppose that a member representing one of the divisions of Sydney took a house in Melbourne and lived here, how would he meet the requirements of the nomination paper in regard to the matter of residence ? I take it that he would have to say that he resided in Melbourne, whereas his qualification would be his enrolment in Sydney. 14878 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes, but a member's name might be struck off the roll for the division in which he formerly resided. 14878 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - Even if that happened he could have himself enrolled in Melbourne for the division in which he resided. Mr.HenryWillis. - Not unless he made application to be enrolled. 14878 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - Of course, he would have to apply to be enrolled. If a Member of Parliament will not take the trouble involved in making such an application, how can we expect other people to do so? I take it that under this Bill, enrolment anywhere within the Commonwealth will allow a candidate to be nominated. Supposing that, whilst living in Adelaide, I preferred to allow my name to remain on the roll for the Lang division in Sydney? 14878 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member could do that if he chose. The clause will not place any honorable member at a disadvantage. 14878 KJI Indi 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - I do not know whether this clause will operate exactly as the Minister desires. For the first Parliament there will be no difficulty. If a member from Queensland came to live in Melbourne, would he have the right on being re-elected to retain his name on the roll of the division which he represents ? 14878 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes. 14878 KJI PROT 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr ISAACS - There will be many cases such as I have mentioned, but those honorable members whose rights we specially desire to conserve will derive little or no benefit from this clause. What we desire to do is to allow a member to retain his connexion with the electorate he represents, and I see no other course open than to provide that a member of the House of Representatives shall be entitled to have his name retained upon the roll of the electorate which he represents, whilst a senator shall have a similar right in regard to his State. 14878 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - It is very necessary that some provision of this kind should be made. My own case is no doubt similar to that of many other honorable members. I do not quite know where my home is. I regard as my home the electorate I represent, because there lie all my interests outside of politics. I find it necessary to travel to Sydney every week. Thus I spend three days of every week in Melbourne, two days in the train, and two days in Sydney, and I am very seldom at home. In New South Wales the point has been raised that a man's domicile is the place where his wife resides, whilst on the other hand it has been held that the wife's domicile is where her husband lives. If the place where a man's wife resides is to be regarded as his domicile, it will be necessary for some members of this Chamber to change their residence every month, if not every week. I am entirely in sympathy with the object of the amendment, because in the absence of some such provision a great deal of confusion and difficulty will arise. 14878 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In order to meet the objections which have been raised, I desire to omit the word "the "before the word " division," with a view to insert the word "any," and to omit the words "in which he lived at the time of his election " with a view to insert the words " he represents." Amendment amended accordingly. 14878 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I do not think that the clause, as at present drafted, will meet the case of senators. 14878 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The word " any " is designed to do that. 14878 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Still, I do not think that the clause is drafted in the most satisfactory form. Mr. GLYNN(South Australia).- The alterations just made partly remove the objections to the amendment, but, even now, it will not meet the case of the honorable member for Barrier. In order to carry out the object of the Minister we should provide that a senator or member of the House of Representatives should not, unless he so elected, be deemed by residence incidental to attendance at Parliament to have changed his place of living. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 43 agreed to. Clause 47 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 74 agreed to. Clause80 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 98a- No person who is or within fourteen days after the issue of the writ has been a Member of the Parliament of a State shall be capable of being nominated as a senator, or as a member of the House of Representatives. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the words "or within fourteen days after the issue of the writ has been " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " at the date of the nomination or who was at any time within fourteen days prior to the date of nomination." 14879 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - I hope that the Minister will not persist in the amendment. When this was previously under discussion, it did not receive that consideration which its importance warrants. To my mind, it savours of an aggressive piece of legislation which is altogether unworthy of this Parliament. The proposal was put forward upon the ground that some of the States had enacted a similar provision in respect of Members of this Parliament. 14879 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Is it fair to discuss the question after the debate we. had upon it the other night ? 14879 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - It was not debated to any great extent. 14879 KJI 0 0 ISAACS, Isaac Mr Isaacs - The majority was so great that the. minority would not call for a division. 14879 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - The clause not only imposes an improper embargo upon Members of the State Parliaments, but also limits the choice of the electors, and therefore I protest against it. 14879 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I do not intend to debate this clause, although I quite agree that it is necessary to make clear to the outside public the way in which honorable members view it. Despite the fact that I opposed the provision to disqualify Members of State Parliaments from election to the Federal Parliament, I find that my action was completely misrepresented in South Australia. It was said that myself and others supported this provision for the purpose of protecting our own interests. I think that the clause should be struck out. We ought not to copy the very bad example set by some of the States. Amendment agreed to. Question - That the clause as amended be agreed to - put. The committee divided. 28 12 Majority ... ... 16 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 99- No nomination shall be valid unless - The person nominated, or some person on his behalf, deposits the sum of £25 in money or in bank notes or in a banker's cheque. 14879 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I move - That paragraph (c) be omitted. When the clause was before the committee on a previous occasion it went through without challenge, owing to some misunderstanding. The honorable member for Dalley then made a protest, and the Acting Prime Minister agreed to recommit the clause. I shall not detain the committee at any length, because I suppose honorable members have made up their minds on this as a matter of principle. It is inadvisable to place obstacles in the way of any one's candidature. The sub-clause is opposed to the principles which the Minister for Home Affairs hae been inculcating throughout the Bill, and is likely to be mischievous in its effects, without having any deterrent consequences, except in theory. Question - That paragraph (c) stand part of the clause - put. The committee divided. 25 11 Majority ... ... 14 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clause 105 (Deposit to be forfeited in certain cases). Amendment (by Sir Williamlyne) agreed to - That the words, " In elections for the House of Representatives the number of votes for the purposes of this section means the number of votes indicated by the number 1 " be omitted. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 106 and 108 agreed to. Clause 114 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 114B- The ..... envelope in which the postal ballot-paper is placed shall not, after it has been closed, be opened until the scrutiny. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That after the word "not," line 2, the following words be inserted, "except as provided in section 119a." Mr. L.E. GROOM (Darling Downs).Will the Minister make it a punishable offence for any person to open an envelope and look at the ballot-paper ? 14880 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I will have the point inquired into, but I am advised that the honorable member's object is attained under a subsequent clause which deals with penalties for offences. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 130 verbally amended and agreed to. Clause 140 a agreed to. Clause 142- The presiding officer may, and at the request of any scrutineer shall, put to any person claiming to vote, all or any of the following questions : - (iva.) Do yon now live within the division for which you are enrolled? 14880 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The questions provided for in this clause do not cover the case of clause 139a. That clause relates to where a man has shifted his residence, and has applied to be put upon the new roll, but where the registration has not taken place. Then the elector would be entitled to vote as though he were on the roll. But the clause does not cover the questions to be put to the elector under those circumstances. 14880 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I quite admit the force of what the honorable and learned member says. It seems to me that there should be something inserted to prevent a misunderstanding, because there is a provision in another part of the Bill that if an elector has been transferred from one roll to another, he will have the right to. vote. Under this clause there may be some little trouble. I inserted question iva., to which the honorable and learned member refers, at the instance of the leader of the Opposition, but it has been suggested to me by the draftsman that there is no occasion for it. 14880 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - If the question is left out it will be safer than will be the case if the clause is left as it stands. 14880 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I move- That paragraph (iva.) be omitted. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 146 - If the name under which the. person claims to vote is upon the list of voters for the polling place, or if he delivers to the presiding officer a voter's certificate, and his right to vote is not challenged, or, if challenged, he answers the prescribed questions satisfactorily, the presiding officer or a poll clerk shall hand to him a ballot paper duly initialed, but the presiding officer shall, at the request of eny scrutineer, take note of any objection, and keep a record thereof. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the words " he delivers to the presiding officer a voter's certificate " be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " his name is on the roll for the division and he makes and signs a declaration as required by section 140a." Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 161 agreed to. Clause 164 (Assistant Returning Officer to count primary votes). 14881 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - In regard to clause 164,I suggest to the Minister whether he ought not to change the position of the squares from the left-hand side of the ballot paper to the right? 1 believe there are only two States in which squares have been used on ballot papers, and in both those cases the square was on the right side of the paper. 14881 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Squares were used in New South Wales on one occasion, and then they were on the left side. 14881 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - There will be a good deal of informality in voting if the squares are placed on the left of the paper. Clause agreed to. Clauses 165 and 172 agreed to. Clause 1 73 verbally amended and agreed to. Clause 174- No electoral expense shall be incurred except in respect of the following matters : - (vii.) Election agents. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the word " incurred" be omitted, with a view to insert in lien thereof the words " or authorized." 14881 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - In this clause the expenses of an election are enlarged by providing that election agents, as well as scrutineers, may be employed. What is an election agent ? There is no need for paragraph VII. Paid scrutineers may be necessary, but not paid agents. 14881 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Even if it is surplusage, it can do no harm. 14881 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - I move- That paragraph VII. be omitted. Question - That paragraph VII. stand part of the clause - put. The committee divided - Ayes ... .... ... 16 Noes ... ... ...18 Majority ... ... 2 Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 151 agreed to. Clause 152 (Contingent Vote) - Mr. SYDNEYSMITH (Macquarie).In view of the attitude taken up by the Government in connexion with the previous clause, it is my intention to move an amendment upon this clause which will raise the whole question, and I therefore ask the Minister to agree to adjourn now, because there will be a debate upon the question. I desire to get an expression of opinion upon a matter which has not so far been fairly dealt with. I do not impute motives to any honorable members, but the vote previously taken upon the amendment moved in clause 151 was decided by sixteen to nineteen, and there were several pairs, in which the names of members were given for the amendment by mistake. I move: - That the words " In the case of the Senate the voters shall vote for the full number of candidates to be elected, and " be inserted at the commencement of the clause. What I propose was provided for in clause 151, as originally introduced by the Government, and it was only defeated by three votes in a thin House. I do not propose to debate the question at length, but I leave honorable members to test the question by a division upon the amendment. 14882 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - There can be very little doubt that the better place in which to have inserted this amendment was at the end of clause 151, where it stood in the Bill as originally introduced by the Government. The clause, as originally introduced, was carried against the Government by a vote of nineteen to sixteen, and, including pairs, only 47 members voted, leaving 28 members of the House unaccounted for in the division. It is also asserted that at least two or three honorable members, who were prepared to support the clause as it originally stood, were wrongly paired upon this question of plumping. The Government have been asked to recommit the clause that there might be an opportunity given to get an expression of opinion on the subject in a full House. I submit to the Minister in charge of the Bill that at 1 1 o'clock it is hardly fair to go on with the consideration of this subject. This is a very important question, and it was previously decided by 35 members actually voting, and when there were 40 members absent. If a vote had been taken on the question in a full House I should not object. I think it not an unreasonable request to ask that we should adjourn, because I confess that if we took a vote upon the amendment now there would be a great many members absent. I do not think that there should be any plumping for the Senate. While we are perfectly within our rights in arranging the details of elections for the Senate, I doubt the propriety of amending a provision which has already been agreed toby that body. In my opinion, electors should be compelled to vote for the full number of candidates to be elected, and the majority should rule. A provision which will allow plumping will provide for the introduction of all the evils of what is known as the machine system of politics, and then it will be good-bye to fair representation. Mr. SYDNEYSMITH (Macquarie).I am strongly of opinion that a division should not be taken upon this question tonight. When it was last dealt with, only 34 members out of a House of 75 voted upon it. It may be said that honorable members should not be absent, but it must not be forgotten that the hour is very late, and that many of us were travelling all last night. 14882 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member promised that if I would recommit the clause it should not be debated at any length. 14882 L2I Macquarie FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I do not wish to hear a long discussion, but I do not think a division should be taken until to-morrow? 14882 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Why not ? Are the numbers up? 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH -Whatever may be the result, I desire to see a fair vote upon the question. 14882 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Honorable members knew hours ago that the clause was to be dealt with to-night. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - It is only two hours since the Bill was recommitted. 14882 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Although the official report of debates in committee is a condensed one, the discussion of this clause occupies fifteen pages ofHansard. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - However much the question may have been debated already, I think that I am not unreasonable in asking that the division be taken to-morrow. 14882 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I shall never again believe the honorable member's promises. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I have not repudiated any promise, though the Minister endeavoured to repudiate his promise to recommit the clause. 14882 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It was a pure oversight. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The right honorable member for Tasmania has suggested a compromise, and I think the committee should have a fair opportunity of dealing with it when there is a good attendance of members. I think that the electors may be reasonably asked to select six or three candidates, as the case may be, as the best men to represent them. 14882 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That is all we want. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - No ; the honorable member wishes that the electors shall vote for one or more candidates just as they think fit. But I desire that the electors shall express their opinion regarding a sufficient number of candidates to fill the vacant seats. 14882 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - An elector may have no opinion with regard to more than one of the candidates. 14882 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - Then he will have himself to blame for not having secured the nomination of a sufficient number of candidates to represent his views. It is not likely that there will be any scarcity of candidate!). 1" hope that the Government will consent to a postponement, because I am sure that little if any time will be taken up in debating the matter tomorrow. 14883 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - As the last trains leave at 11.30 p.m., the honorable member for Macquarie . has the satisfaction of knowing that he has accomplished the object which he had in view. Under the circumstances I am compelled to report progress. I did not 'anticipate when T agreed to the recommittal of the Bill that I should be placed in the position which I now occupy by the honorable member. A promise was given that there would be no debate. I have been caught once- 14883 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I object to the Minister making any insinuations whatever. My position is straighter than is his own. His actions have always been as crooked as a <4©g'8 hind leg. 14883 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must know that he has offended against the standing orders, and I ask him to withdraw the remark which he has just made. 14883 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - If you, sir, .would coll the Minister to order when he attacks me, there would lie no necessity for me to reply to his statements. I have .just as much right to the courtesy of debate as he has. 14883 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I am sorry that the honorable member for Macquarie should become so heated over this question. I had hoped that the committee would dispose pf this Bill to-night in order that we might deal with fresh business to-morrow, but under the circumstances I shall report progress; Progress reported. 14883 23:25:00 House adjourned at 11.25 p.m.