1903-09-02 1 2 0 REPS 4498 0 House of Representatives. 1903-09-02 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 4498 petition Mr. SALMON presented a petition from certain railway employes of Victoria, praying the House to . so amend the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill that its provisions shall apply to public servants. Mr. SYDNEY SMITH presented a petition from certain members of the Coal and Shale Miners' Mutual Protection Association of Airly Industrial Union of Employes, praying the House to so amend the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill that its provisions shall apply equally to all vessels engaging . in the Australian coastal trade, whether Australian, oversea, or foreign. . Mr. TUDOR presented a petition from certain electors, praying the House to pass into law the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill.? Mr. AUSTIN CHAPMAN presented a petition from 10,050 electors of New South Wales, praying the House to pass into law the Bonuses for Manufactures Bill. Mr. CRUICKSHANK presented a similar petition from certain electors of Queensland. Petitions received. 4498 miscellaneous 4498 4498 KYT Kooyong 0 0 KNOX, William Mr KNOX - As to-morrow is the annual public holiday which is observed in Victoria because of the Royal Agricultural Show, has the Prime Minister any objection to fixing the time of meeting of the House at a later hour than 2.30 p.m.? 4498 009LR Hunter Protectionist Minister for External Affairs 1 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - If I may do so now, I move, with the concurrence of honorable members - That the House, at its riding, adjourn until tomorrow at 3.30 p.m. I do not think I can ask honorable members to postpone the hour of meeting beyond that time. Question resolved in the affirmative. 4498 Questions 4498 4498 JR7 0 0 BONYTHON, John Sir LANGDON BONYTHON - I wish to read some correspondence, which I shall follow with a question addressed to the Minister for Trade and Customs. I shall read first a letter addressed to him by Mr. S. J. Jacobs, the President of the General Council of Chambers of Commerce of the Commonwealth of Australia. It is in these terms - I have the honour to transmit to you the following resolution, passed at the meeting of the General Council of Chambers of Commerce of the Commonwealth of Australia, recently held in Adelaide -. - "That it is in the highest degree essential to the commerce of Australia that statistics of the movements of all goods between the States should be published monthly, and that the Federal Government be respectfully asked to take the neceasary steps to procure the issue of such statistics." The Council expressed the opinion that the statistics referred to in the resolution are essential in the interests of producers and traders, who would thereby be enabled to satisfactorily gauge the markets of the various States, and arrange supplies in relation to demand. Considerable changes in the trade of each State have necessarily followed the adoption of free commerce between the States, and without frequent publication of statistics there is much working in the dark. I have, further, to respectfully urge that such statistics should be published in the form of quantities rather than values, which are inconsistent and, consequently, illusive. In moving the resolution referred to in that letter, Mr. Jacobs is reported to have stated that- As members were no doubt aware, at present they only get these . statistics once a year, and it was not easy always to discriminate between Inter-State and oversea shipment. He did not think too much attention could be given to the necessity of collection and prompt publication of monthly statistics giving full details of the trade between the various States. The publication of these statistics waB absolutely essential to the producers, in order that they may know what markets they had in the States for their produce, and thus regulate their production according to the consumption. Hitherto they had been largely indebted to the press for the supply of statistics. It was a case of absolute necessity which hardly left room for discussion. To his mind the great thing was to adopt a system of statistics whereby the producer could ascertain the demand and regulate the supplies between the different States. The reply received from the Department was as follows : - Adverting to my letter of the 11th ult. , in reference to yours dated' 23rd June, re publication of monthly statistics of Inter-State trade, I am directed by the Minister to inform you that the matter has been considered, but it is not deemed advisable to adopt the practice. The question I wish to ask is, why is it not deemed advisable to adopt the practice f 4499 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Although the honorable member's question is a very short one, the preamble was so long that I am not sure that I have entirely grasped the whole of what he read. My impression is that it was not deemed advisable to adopt the practice because of the expense ; but if the honorable member will give notice of his question, so that I may have an opportunity to look into the papers again, I shall be able to give him definite information on the subject. 4499 miscellaneous Sir EDMUND BARTON laid upon the table the following paper : - Immigration Restriction Act, Correspondence in regard to the Heathdene case. 4499 Questions 4499 4499 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I wish to know from the Postmaster-General if it is to be understood from his answer to a question asked last week that he intends to move the Cabinet with reference to certain decisions of the Public Service Commissioner? If so, is that an indication of political interference with that officer 1 4499 JZT Free Trade 0 0 FYSH, Philip Sir PHILIP FYSH - I think I can gauge the purport of the honorable member's question, inasmuch as several applications have been made by members of the House and by the civil servants themselves through the proper channels for the reconsideration of decisions which have been given by the Public Service Commissioner, and which have appeared, so far as the individuals affected were concerned, somewhat harsh. It was my intention, if there happened to be a generality of such cases, to seek an interview with my colleagues as to the advisability of asking the Public Service Commissioner to review his decision. That is as far as I have- gone in the expression of an opinion on the subject. I have not yet sought the interview to which I have alluded. 4499 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON -Will the Minister inform the House what process is provided in the Public Service Act for the reconsideration of any decision of the Public Service Commissioner ? 4499 JZT 0 0 FYSH, Philip Sir PHILIP FYSH - Speaking from memory, I believe that the Public Service Act provides that the decision of the Public Service Commissioner shall be final, unless the Minister remits its consideration to the House. If any action is to be taken, it will be in reference to some principle laid down, and I have not yet done more than secure a collection of the facts in respect to the complaints made by certain officers. When I think I have the facts sufficiently clearly before me, I may ask my colleagues to reconsider the matter. 4499 4499 KDF PROT; FT from 1913; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910 0 0 EDWARDS, Richard Mr R EDWARDS - Has the Minister for Trade and Customs yet received the reply of Mr. McDowall, the Queensland Electoral Commissioner, to the charges which were made against him 1 If so, will he lay it upon the table for the information of honorable members 1 4499 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have no doubt that the honorable member is aware that I received it two hours ago. 4499 KDF PROT; FT from 1913; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910 0 0 EDWARDS, Richard Mr R EDWARDS - I am not aware. How could I know that ? 4499 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have not yet read Mr. McDowall's statement, but I have been told that it is a denial of 'everything that has been said against him, and contains a request for an inquiry. The advisability of granting an inquiry is a question which I shall submit for the consideration of the Cabinet at its first meeting. I have the papers with me, but I do not think it would be a wise thing to place them upon the table until an inquiry has been held. In the interests of Mr. McDowall, I think it is better not to lay the papers on the table at present, though, personally, I have no objection to that course. I think the matter had better be postponed until the Cabinet decide whether or not an inquiry shall be held. 4499 4499 L0Y 0 0 WILKINSON, James Mr WILKINSON - I desire to ask the Minister representing the Minister for Defence when it is likely he will lay on the table the return promised a little while ago, showing the unexpended balance in respect of the contingent fund of the Queensland Defence Forces. 4499 009LR Protectionist 1 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - The Minister for Defence is not present, but if a return has been promised, or ordered by the House, I shall endeavour to see that it is laid on the table as soon as possible. 4500 4500 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I desire to ask the Postmaster-General whether it is his intention to sanction the letter-carriers in the Melbourne metropolitan district the holiday which has usually been allowed on the day of the Royal Agricultural Show in Victoria. Hitherto, both under State and Federal administration, the letter carriers have, on the Thursday of the Show week, been given a holiday after the first delivery of the day. 4500 JZT Free Trade 0 0 FYSH, Philip Sir PHILIP FYSH - I, this morning, received notice from the honorable member from Bourke that he intended to ask a question on this subject, and I promised to give an answer. I am now awaiting a consultation with the heads of the Department as to how far the practice referred to by the honorable member for Yarra mav be continued. I am not desirous of making any new practice, unless under special circumstances ; and within an hour I hope to be able to arrive at a decision. 4500 4500 K7X PROT 0 0 CRUICKSHANK, George Mr CRUICKSHANK asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Is he aware that the Narrabri-Walgett mail service has been running in an irregular manner for over six months ? Have the contractors been fined each time they were late ; if not, why not ? Ifthey have been fined, have these fines been remitted ; if so, why so ? Are the contractors on this line allowed to run late every mail ; and, if so, what is the rea- son ? 4500 JZT Free Trade 0 0 FYSH, Philip Sir PHILIP FYSH - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - Upon inquiry the Postmaster-General has been informed that the mail service referred to has been running irregularly for some time past. The contractors have not been fined, because the Deputy Postmaster-General considered that sufficient reasons had been given for the irregularities that have occurred, and which have been caused by (1) insufficient time having been allowed in the time-table, except under verv favorable conditions ; (2) by conditions caused by the prolonged drought which has, until recently, prevailed in the district ; (3) by heavy roads, since rain has fallen on the black soil over which the greater part of the road passes, and the cutting up of the roads by the heavy traffic in connexion with the railway construction. Answered by reply to question No. 2. The contractors have been informed that they must adhere to the time-table unless good reasons can be given for any delays that occur, and that, if the excuses fire not considered satisfactory, they will be fined for all delays. 4500 4500 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Has his attention been drawn to the following newspaper paragraph : - Bendigo. Infection of Fruit. , At the meeting of the Bendigo District Vine and . Fruit Growers' Association on Saturday a letter was received from Sir John Quick, M.P., intimating that, in compliance with the fruit-growers' request, he had interviewed the Commissioner for Customs with regard to a proposal that certificates issued by Government inspectors in reference to "clean" fruit intended for export in other States should be recognised by inspectors in the State to which the fruit was forwarded. He (Sir John Quick) had been informed that the Customs officials had nothing to do with the inspection of fruit, but if in the course of their duties they came across any diseased fruit, they brought it under the notice of the Agricultural Department's inspectors. It was decided to communicate with the Minister of Agriculture, with a view to having the proposal carried into effect. Is the report substantially correct ? If so, have instructions been issued to the Customs officials in Victoria to act accordingly? If the answer is in the affirmative, will he see that similar action- is taken in all the States? 4500 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In reply to the honorable member's questions I have to state - Yes. The officers of this Department have general instructions to assist in any direction the State Governments may desire in carrying out State law. I have directed reports to be obtained from each State as to the practice prevailing. This Department has no power in the matter, as it can only act as the agent of the State Government, and such action must depend upon the latter, and the terms of the State law in force. If desired by a State, the Customs officials will act as the cases may require; 4500 4500 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice - How -many, and which, of the warships torpedo boats, and gunboats, previously the property of the States, are to be retained by the Commonwealth? Has any scheme (and if so, what,) been arranged as to the organization and numbers of the Australian Naval Forces ? Do the Government propose to appoint an Australian Naval Commandant ? When may the House expect to receive a full statement of the future Australian naval policy of the Commonwealth v 4501 009LR Protectionist 1 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - The answers to the honorable, and learned member's questions are as follow : - It is proposed that only the following vessels be retained : The turret ship Cerberus j the first-class torpedo boats Countess qfHopetoun and Childers. With reference to the gunboats Protector,Palumah, and Gayundah, it is proposed to retain them for another twelve months certain, from the beginning of the present financial year. No. This is under consideration. Pending decision as to certain improvements in harbor defence; it is not in contemplation to make any statement further than that made by the Prime Minister in his speech in reply on the . second reading of the Naval Agreement Bill. 4501 4501 JWG ALP 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice Has the Perth Chamber of Commerce represented to the Minister that much delay takes place at present in passing entries at the Perth Custom House, and that a larger staff is necessary ? Is it a fact that the staff at this place has been reduced in strength, and that the further dismissal of temporary hands is contemplated ; if so, why? 4501 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In reply to the honorable member's questions - 1, Yes. No reduction in the staff at Perth has been made by this office, but a report will be obtained on the subject. The arrangement of the staff is in the Collector's hands, who reports that he has no doubt that when the new Customs House is completed there will belittle cause for delay. No temporary officers are being dismissed, but a number of them have been continuously employed for niue months under section 40 of the Public Service Act. Under sub-section 3 the employment is limited to nine months, and they cannot be longer employed except under sub-section 6. If necessary other competent clerks will be employed. 4501 4501 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Will the collection of duties under section 1)2 of the Constitution on goods passing from State to State entirely cease on the 8th October next (with the exception of Western Australia) ? ' Will all entries and other documents hitherto required for Inter-State transfers under section 93 still be =4 "" =", ' or is it proposed to alter or simplify them in any way ? Are the advalorem duties credited to a consuming State under section '93 in' all cases whether on goods as originally imported or goods made up in the State) based on values when imported to the Commonwealth, or on the prices charged by the vendor in one State to a purchaser in the other ? Is the practice hitherto followed in the last named respect to continue ? 4501 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In reply to the honorable member's questions - Yes. The fullest information as to the duty on goods transferred is absolutely necessary, and the possibility of this being obtained by a simplification of the present methods is now receiving careful consideration. The duties credited are claimed on the import values. Yes, and for the period provided for by the Constitution. 4501 bill In Committee (Consideration resumed from 1st September, vide page 4454) : Clause 2 - Where under a law of the State, made in pursuance of the Constitution, the State is at the commencement of this Act distributed into Electoral Divisions equal in number to the number of members of the House of Representatives to be chosen therein, those Electoral Divisions shall, until both Houses of the Parliament have passed a resolution approving of a proposed distribution of the State into Divisions, be taken to be Divisions within the meaning of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902. 4501 KCO South Australia 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I have given notice of an amendment to strike out clause 2, with a view to substituting another clause, a copy of which has, I believe, been printed and circulated. It may be convenient if I explain the provision which I propose to substitute, in order to induce honorable members to come to what I consider a compromise which is fair and also consistent with the Electoral Act. The difficulty in which the Minister finds himself after having submitted the motions regarding the distributions at so late a stage is that there is no time within which a redistribution could be made under section 32 of the Act if the reports and maps are referred back to the Commissioners. But that could be easily got over so far as the time is concerned - and that is the only difficulty upon which the Minister has insisted - by slightly amending sections 18 and 19 of the Electoral Act so as to reduce the period during which the maps are to be exhibited from thirty days to seven days. Under section 18, objections or suggestions in writing may be lodged with the ( Commissioner not. later than thirty days after the first publication of the proposed distribution. . It is provided in clause 19 that the Commissioner shall forthwith, after the expiration of the thirty days forward his report to the Minister. It is plain, therefore, that if we reduce the thirty-day period to seven days it will be possible to have the whole matter reconsidered within a fortnight or three weeks, and motions can then be submitted to the House, not for the rejection of the distributions, but for their adoption as contemplated by the Act. This course would involve the least possible violation of the principles of the Act. The redistributions would be made in accordance with the Act in every respect, except that the distributions would be exhibited for only a week prior to the , receipt of the report by the Minister. Considering that in some States not one objection was received, the publication of the distribution seems to me to be the least important part - if it can be considered an important part - of the prescriptions of Part III. of the Electoral Act, relating to the method to be followed in making the divisions. In South Australia there was not a single objection to the recommendations of the late Commissioner. 4502 KU9 FT 0 0 SOLOMON, Vaiben Mr V L SOLOMON - I- think there was only one. It referred to Goodwood. 4502 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I understand that no objection was raised whilst the maps were being exhibited, but that the objection was raised for the first time by the honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Batchelor, iri this chamber. 4502 JR7 0 0 BONYTHON, John Sir Langdon Bonython - No objection was raised within the period allowed by the Act. 4502 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Exactly. But even if there had been a dozen objections the fact would still indicate that the electors in the constituency affected which contains 25,000 or 26,000 voters relied to a very small extent for the alteration of the divisions upon any objections they might enter during the time the maps were exhibited. I do not think that very many objections were received in New South Wales. 4502 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - There were thirty-five altogether, of which fourteen were received from one electorate. 4502 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - In that State the maximum number of electors in a division is about 35,000, and the minimum 12,000, and, even if those objections were received from the electors in one division, instead of the whole State, they would bear a very small proportion to the whole. All these facts indicate that the prescription in the Act with regard to the maps being exhibited for thirty days is of very little importance, and honorable members will therefore see that by adopting the course I suggest they will be making the least departure from the principle of uniformity embodied in the Act. By inserting a clause such as I am proposing, we should really be observing the very essence of the principle to be followed in connexion with the distribution, namely, the principle of uniformity as regards the quota. The Government are asking us to ignore the quota, which is the very essence not only of the distribution of members among the States, but the very essence of the method of the distribution of the States into districts for the purposes of electing representatives to this House. The Government have asked us to ignore the quota with regard to four of the States, and to thus violate the essential principle of the Act at the very inception of our work. I am afraid that if a precedent of this kind were created, it might be turned to a very mischievous account hereafter. Surely if we are entitled at this stage to wait until the conditions as regards population become more settled in some divisions, it might be urged with equal justice that the Act should be suspended when conditions become varied at a later stage. The very initial precedent of violation which we should afford, would, I am afraid, be used ' to justify the suspension of the Act on some other occasion, perhaps, to enable the members of a future House to retain their seats. I do not for a moment allege that that is the motive operating with honorable members here, but the members of a future Parliament may be so actuated, and that may be the motive attributed to us by the electors. It is at least necessary that we should appear to b& sincere and honest, and I hope that honorable members will recognise the desirability of adopting the line of least resistance, and involving the least violation of the principle of the Act, which I now suggest. The honorable member for Bland, in replying to an interjection made by me yesterday, seemed favorable to a compromise such as I am now suggesting. At all events, he gave his adherence to the principle for which I am contending, and I hope that, with his assistance, I shall be able to carry my amendment. 4502 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I expressed a doubt as to the possibility of doing what the honorable member desires within the time at our disposal. 4503 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - But if we allow for only seven days' instead of thirty days' publication of the maps, ample time will be allowed for the redistributions, and for the consideration of the reports. The Minister, himself, has shown conclusively that the reports could be reconsidered and again presented to us. He has shown that since the report of one Commissioner was presented thousands of electors had returned to some of the New South Wales divisions. 4503 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I said since the last collection. 4503 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - That makes my position all the stronger. He showed that there had been an addition of 2,000 electors to a- total of 14,000 in one division within a few months, and therefore there must have been such a change in the conditions which formed the data for the Commissioner in drawing up his report as would justify him in making a redistribution approximating, at all events, to the conditions which at present obtain. 4503 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - In order to give effect to the honorable and learned member's idea, the Commissioner would have to wait until the new lists were completed. 4503 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I think that I can remove that difficulty. The Minister will acknowledge that the provisions of the Electoral Act have been generally adhered to by the Commissioners. We might have similar migrations of population from one part of a State to another three or six years hence, and surely we could not reasonably be called upon to suspend the operation of the Act whilst people were shifting about from place to place. We must apply the provisions of the Act to the existing conditions, and we must not tamper with the law or violate its principles in order to suit the convenience of any political party. The principles of the Act apply just as clearly now as they would do twelve months hence. The honorable member for Bland - suggested a difficulty in connexion with the completion of the lists. No doubt the quota is based upon the number of electors, but if the Minister wishes to secure a new revision he can insure that revision being made expeditiously by amending section 34 of the Electoral Act; which . provides that the electoral rolls collected for any division must be published for the consideration of the .districts concerned for thirty days Any difficulty in the way of notice may be easily removed by an amendment of section 34. I do not think that sections 34 and 38 are really obligatory as regards the question of immediate revision. My idea is that they apply only to the first roll collected after the passing of the Electoral Act, because honorable members will see that section 32 in Part V. of the Act, which deals with these Special Revision Courts, declares - The Commonwealth Electoral Officer for each State shall, as soon as practicable after the commencement of this Act, prepare lists of all persons qualified and entitled to have their names placed upon the roll for the States, specifying in such lists the particulars required to be specified in the roll. The provisions which follow that section in Part V. of the Act deal with the first electoral roll collected, and the Court which is to undertake its revision is Galled in section 38 a " Special Court of Revision." Subsequently, in Part VII. of the Act, provision is made for General Revision Courts, which may be held at anytime the Minister chooses to fix by proclamation. It is only in the case of the Special Revision Courts that the Act requires the rolls collected to be exhibited for thirty days. There is no provision relating to the exhibition of the rolls prior to the holding of General Revision Courts, which may sit at any time the Minister chooses to fix by proclamation. Therefore there need be no delay in the holding of another Revision Court for the purpose of correcting the lists, and thus completely complying with the provisions of Part III. of the Electoral Act, which relates to the method to be adopted in distributing the States into electoral divisions. In order to emphasize the point that there is no obligation imposed under the Act to publish the lists for thirty days, I would refer honorable members to section 50, which declares - A new roll for any. division or new rolls for all divisions in a State shall be prepared whenever directed by proclamation and in the manner therein specified. After the provisions as regards the first rolls and the Special Revision Courts have been exhausted, the Act lays it down that new rolls shall be framed whenever the * Minister thinks fit to decide, and in whatever manner he may determine by express proclamation. Therefore, there can be nothing in the excuse which is relied upon by the Minister that it would be impossible to hold Revision Courts within the time at our disposal. Throughout the Act it is clear that different provisions obtain as regards the collection of future rolls from those which relate to the collection of the first rolls. The first rolls differ from future rolls not only as regards the period during which they shall be exhibited, but also in the method of their collection. There is every possibility, therefore, of the Electoral Act being complied with as regards the States which are affected by this Bill if the House be willing to adopt the course which I suggest. The principle of uniformity contemplated by the Electoral Act and by all Federal legislation will then be adhered to. We shall thus avoid setting the bad precedent of providing that the divisions of the smaller States are the only ones which shall comply with the conditions of the Electoral Act. Considering the extent to which this matter has been threshed out, I do not think I need refer at greater length to the provisions of the Act. If the sections relating to the holding of Revision Courts, require amendment, the Minister can easily enough introduce a clause substituting seven days for thirty days in respect of those provisions. There can be no possible excuse for refusing to comply with the terms of the Act, which are mandatory. It is abundantly clear that if we disagree with the schemes recommended by the Commissioners, we must refer them back to those officers for reconsideration. Section 22 provides - If either House of Parliament passes a resolution disapproving of any proposed distribution, or negatives a motion for the approval of any proposed distribution, the Minister may direct the Commissioner to propose afresh distribution of the State into divisions. The word " may " used in the section is mandatory. Under the previous sections I am aware that if both Houses of Parliament approve of any distribution, the Governor-General "may," by proclamation, declare the names and boundaries of the divisions. I hold, however, that the word " may" as used in that section is mandatory, because in respect of the Governor-General it is always used for "shall." It is futile to argue that it* is permissive. One cannot maintain that the same word is not imperative when applied to the Minister under section 22.' I am aware that that is the contention of the honorable and learned member for Indi, but I respectfully submit that it will not hold water. Wherever the word ' ' may " is used for a necessary object it is obligatory on the part of the Administration to fulfil the conditions which attach to it. This Bill will not get rid of that obligation. It does not suspend the operation of those sections. It proposes to retain the divisions under which this House was constituted. At the same time it does not say that the obligation imposed by section 22 is suspended - the obligation to refer the reports -back to the Commissioners for reconsideration. While suspending the operation of the Act as regards four of the larger States, and continuing the existing electoral division in them, we shall have in the smaller States conditions which are not suspended. >and are inconsistent with this Act - conditions which ought to be applied to all and which the Minister refuses to apply. I trust that the House will not consent to the suspension of some of the provisions of an Act which is supposed to be uniform. If clause 2 be negatived I shall move - That the following new clause be inserted : - " 2a. In respect of any redistribution of a State into divisions under section twenty-two of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902, prior to thirty-first March, One thousand nine hundred and four, ' seven days ' shall be read for ' thirty days ' in sections eighteen and nineteen of the said Act." By cutting down the period of time from thirty to seven days all the objections put by the Minister which have reasonable force will be overcome. I trust that the honorable member for Bland, who yesterday seemed to be favorable to the adoption of this method as offering a fair solution of the difficulty into which the Ministry has led us, will not depart from the opinion expressed by him, and which led me to draft this provision' by way of compromise. I hope that honorable members will pave the way to the adoption of this amendment by agreeing to the omission of the clause. 4504 KIN Hume Protectionist Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I cannot agree to this amendment. I have no desire to say anything that might be regarded as offensive; but it seems to me that the amendment is an absurdity. The time specified in it would enable people resident in large centres of population to inspect the alterations, and to obtain all the information necessary ; but it would be absolutely impossible to circulate the maps in any large State within that period. Indeed it would be impossible to distribute them over one-tenth part of a State within seven days On the last occasion we found that it was as much as we could do to exhibit the maps throughout each State and to obtain the objections within thirty days. In States such as Queensland, Western Australia, or New South Wales, we could not carry out this work under thirty days. For that reason, if for no other, I must object to the amendment. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - My amendment is that the maps shall be exhibited for seven days after their publication in each place. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - That means seven days after they have been issued from the Lands Department. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - Seven days after the first publication. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I take the proposed clause to mean seven days after their publication by the Lands Department. Immediately after their issue by the Department they would have to be distributed throughout the length and breadth of each State, in order to enable the electors to examine them. We should also have to advertise the fact that the maps were on exhibition in order to call public attention to them, and to enable objections to be lodged by those who desire to make them. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - The amendment refers to seven days after the first publication not in any place but in " the " place. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - But the maps would not reach some of these places within two or three weeks after their publication. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - They must reach each place at some time or other. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - It would take a least a fortnight for the maps to reach certain places. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I do not think the honorable member is serious. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I am perfectly serious. I do not think the honorable and learned member knows what it is to be called upon to distribute these maps throughout the length and breadth of a great State. 4505 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - Why did the Minister delay so long in bringing these matters before' the House ? 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - There has been no delay. I have no desire to say anything that might tend to prolong the debate ; but I have abundant information to show that, notwithstanding all the vicious assertions which have been made against the Government, there has not been one day's loss of time since we entered upon the work last year. The honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, said that these particular provisions of the Electoral Act were mandatory ; that the word " may " was peremptory and really meant "shall." He compared the use of that word in sections IS and 19 to its appearance in other provisions in the Act ; but if he will refer again to the Act he will see that in most of the other cases which he cited it refers not to the Minister but to the Governor-General. 4505 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I said so. 4505 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - This quest on has now been debated for many days, and the same arguments and assertions have been repeated ad nauseam. It is very necessary that the Bill should be dealt with at once, in order that we may be able to complete the preparation of the lists and circulate them. A considerable time will be occupied in completing and circulating the lists, in holding the Revision Courts, and in making all the preparations necessary for holding the general election, and it is undesirable that this work should be delayed for one moment. Two or three weeks have elapsed since the first motion relating to the schemes of distribution was submitted to the House, and honorable members of the Opposition appear to forget that every day's delay may give rise to complications. I hold, and I think that the House will agree with me, that the honorable and learned member's proposal cannot now be carried out. We have gone as far as we can by adopting the States divisions and making them Commonwealth electorates. The honorable and learned member advanced no new argument in support of his proposal, but said that the honorable member for Bland had made some reference to the desirableness of referring the rejected distributions back to the Commissioners. I do not think that that honorable member intended it to be inferred from his remarks that he would support the adoption of that course at the present stage ; but in any event the Government do not propose to accept this amendment. Much time has .been unnecessarily wasted in dealing with this question, and I trust that honorable members will realize that we should settle it without further delay. It is quite impossible to accept the amendment, and the Government intend to adhere to the clause as it stands. 4506 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - The honorable gentleman said that the new lists would interfere with this proposal. 4506 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The new lists have not yet been completed. Even if these divisions were returned to-morrow to the Commissioners nothing could be done by them. The Chief Electoral Officer must first obtain the complete lists from the State authorities and carefully examine and revise them. In Victoria agents have recently been collecting the names of voters, and a number of claims have been sent in by them. These applications must necessarily be examined with care, for it has been found that a great many of the names submitted to the Electoral Officer are those of persons under age. In some cases it has been discovered that the applicants are not more than sixteen years of age. It will thus be seen that unless the various names submitted by agents are carefully examined names may be placed on the lists which should not appear upon them. Another point to be remembered is that a collection of names has recently been made in New South Wales, and that we have been able to obtain but little information from the State officials. In order to confirm the statement which I made yesterday, I had an interview this morning with the Chief Electoral Officer, and inquired whether, in accordance with my instructions, he had made a personal application to the State officials to be supplied with information when in Sydney last week. He informed me that he applied at the State Office and was told that the lists were with the Government Printer. He then applied at the Government Printing Office for these lists, but was informed that they were so. cut up and distributed that it was absolutely impossible to supply them. Certain honorable members stated yesterday that they had obtained complete lists from the State Office. 4506 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - Complete lists of certain electorates. 4506 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have a copy of a telegram which was sent yesterday by the honorable member opposite to the Electoral Officer in Sydney. It reads as follows : - Kindly wire total number, males and females, electors on new roll for Darling, Barrier, and Kiverina. That does not look as though the figures produced yesterday were as reliable as they should be. I have told honorable members of the difficulties with which the Chief Electoral Officer has had to contend, and I think I am safe in saying that if the proposed distributions were returned to the Commissioners to-morrow they would not be in a position to deal with the new names in less than a fortnight. In my opinion the Chief Electoral ' Officer should have been given more information by the State Electoral Officer. . 4506 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The honorable member did not ask the State officer for information. 4506 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The State officer has been asked for information, but the Commonwealth officer has up to the present time received very little from him. As it would be at least a fortnight before the Commissioners could get to work if the proposed distributions were returned to them, it is practically impossible to carry out the proposal of the honorable member. 4506 L2G Wentworth 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - The Minister misunderstands the position. All we have done so far is to formally disapprove of certain proposed distributions, and now that the Government has introduced this Bill to make it lawful to hold the forthcoming elections under the old divisions, we have for the first time an opportunity to move that the proposed distributions be referred back to the . Commissioners. 4506 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - An amendment to that effect was moved when one of the motions disapproving of a proposed distribution was before the House, but it was withdrawn. 4506 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - That does not affect the present position. A subject of this kind, which has stirred the community to its depths, should receive a most searching investigation, and as honorable members on this side of the Chamber have been asking in vain for information, and obdurate Ministers are deaf to our cry, it is only to be expected that we should try to make our voices heard by the electors. The Minister has tried to defend the Department which was recently under his control by throwing the onus of blame on to other persons. It was known, however, that, under the Constitution, half the members of the Senate must present themselves for re-election at the end of three years after the inauguration of Federation, and that probably, to save expense, the members of the House of Representatives would seek re-election at the same time. But the history of the honorable gentleman's electoral administration has been a history of blunders from beginning to end, so that the Electoral Office is in a state of absolute chaos. I do not say that there were no difficulties to be overcome. There must be difficulties in dealing with a complicated matter like this, but as the proper representation of the people is of such importance, the Minister should have given the closest attention to the subject, especially as the duties of his Department were not very onerous. Now that we ask that, the proposed distributions of which the House has disapproved may be returned to the Commissioners, we are told that there is no time to alter them, although the Minister himself stated that there would be time if prompt steps are taken. The objection to the proposed distributions, taken by Ministers and their supporters, is that the drought caused a great exodus of population from the country districts to the towns or more settled coastal districts ; but that as all that we now require is a review of the position, taking into consideration that fact, it is surely not necessary to set the whole of the machinery of the Electoral Act in operation again. The objections to the proposed distributions have been dealt with by the Commissioners, and all they need consider now is the alteration of boundaries necessary to meet the changes effected by the migration to which reference has been made. That being so, will any one tell me that an adjustment cannot be made within seven days 1 In my opinion the objection to which I have referred has been raised by the Government merely to fortify their position. As they were able to obtain a majority under the old divisions, they think, on the principle that the devil you know is better than the devil you do not know, that they have a better chance of being returned again with a majority if the boundaries are left as they are than if they are altered. I believe that honorable members came to the conclusion that certain unfairness had been perpetrated, especially to the country districts, owing to the peculiar conditions. Those honorable members, like my honorable friend the member for Gippsland, do not, I am sure, for a moment desire to see the principle of the Act controverted, but, only as a matter of expediency in point of time, deem it necessary to vote for the proposal of the Government. If that honorable member, and those who think with him, could be told that the original procedure, under which these schemes might be returned to the Commissioners for revision, could be carried out in time, and, from their point of view, substantial justice done to the country districts, I am sure they would a thousand times rather take that course than the legally unconstitutional course which the Government are trying to force through both Houses of Parliament. 4507 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - So far as Victoria is concerned, I do not think that anything like the whole of the people who were driven from the country districts by the drought have yet returned, though they are returning. 4507 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - That is a very difficult matter to determine ; and, as I said before, it is, to my mind the crux of the whole question. There must be anomalies under any conditions, because no man can map out electoral districts and give a system satisfactory to everybody. That is the very essence of the principle of this part of the Electoral Act. We felt that nobody could be fully satisfied, and we determined, under these circumstances, not to allow politicians to so fix boundaries as to exactly suit their own convenience. 4507 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - I was opposed to that proposal, and in favour of the Government and Parliament taking the responsibility. 4507 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I am taking the Act as it was passed by a majority of this House. We are shaving down the point upon which the difficulties have occurred. Honorable members who are supporting the Government agree that since the drought was practically broken, the people who migrated have been returning in large numbers to their original residences. That has been going on for month after month. When is the point to be reached when the people can be said to have all returned ? The principle I enunciate I am perfectly sure is * sound in an enormous issue such as we have before us. Even if the circumstances were different, and the original division- of the electorates under State arrangements was better than it is - though I say it is more anomalous than that: propounded by the Commissioners - we ought not on any consideration, in dealing- with a question on which the whole voting power of the people depends, to break a law by passing another measure unless it is justified by' overwhelming argument - nothing less should induce the House to practically crucify such a principle. It is very difficult to appeal to empty benches. 4508 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I desire, Mr. Chairman, to draw your attention to the state of the Committee. [Quorum formed.] 4508 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I do not think it is necessary to say much more at present with regard to the attitude of the Government. It is not often that we find a Government, by an act of the Legislature, practically passing a vote of censure on themselves. There is nd doubt, however, that this Bill is an absolute vote of censure on the Department for Home Affairs. It is an acknowledgment of weakness - a confession that in the most serious business the Minister had to entertain, he was too feeble for the difficulties of the situation. I do not desire to make any imputation, but I think the Minister is on tenterhooks between two positions. Either there has been a great deal of weakness and incapacity, or it suited the Minister that the Electoral Act should not be carried out in its entirety. I do not know how the action of the Government is going to be justified to the people of Australia. I am not one who places enormous reliance on mere scientific divisions or upon quotas ; but that has nothing to do with the question before the House. An Act was solemnly passed in this House, after the most careful consideration - an Act which said in effect that members must keep their hands off the division of the electorates. We have now, through causes which show absolute incapacity on the part of the Home Department, been obliged, from the point of view of honorable members who support the Government, to consider a measure which, after nearly three years of our existence as a Commonwealth, takes us back to what we considered to be a tentative arrangement - to divisions which no one ever thought would be needed for another election. Whatever may be the result of the next election - and I do not care whether the election favours our side or the other side - the people of Australia must feel that the very institutions under which the democracy record sets vote and by which the majority are supposed to rule has been tampered with by the guardians of the Constitution. We have to look forward to a period of two or three years during which it may be said by any man in the street that those who are legislating, presumably in the interests of the Commonwealth, have attained their positions by the absolute surrender of an important principle deliberately adopted by this Parliament. 4508 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - The Minister complained of the number of sittings that had been occupied in discussing the proposed distributions, and accused some honorable members of wasting time. That charge cannot lie against me, because, through ill-health, I have so far given silent votes upon the motions submitted. But I do not feel disposed to allow this measure to pass without saying a few words to indicate my reason for having voted against the rejection of the proposed distributions. The Minister who introduced the Electoral Act said that it was founded on the principle of equal representation of which I am a 'strong supporter, and it is because I believe that the present proposal involves a departure from that principle, which may be of a more permanent character than at present appears, that I am opposed to it. I can quite understand the honorable member for Gippsland supporting a Bill of this character, because he is opposed to the principle of equal representation. He considers that the country divisions should have a preference over the city electorates. He believes that the value of a vote is to be gauged by the influence which it exercises on legislation. 4508 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I must call attention to the state of the Ministerial Benches, Mr. Chairman. I think that we, are at least entitled to have a. few members in attendance. [Quorum formed], 4508 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - The honorable member for Gippsland contended that we should confer upon the electors in the country relatively greater voting power, because the community of interest among the city electors, and the greater facilities afforded for recording their votes, gave them a great advantage. I do not see how it is possible to estimate the value of a vote upon that basis. The only principle upon which I conceive it possible to confer the franchise is by giving every adult the right to vote, and by so distributing the electorates that the voting power of each individual shall be as nearly as possible equal. That is the principle involved in the Electoral Act, and from which we are now asked to make a departure. We are told that the drought which has recently prevailed throughout a great part of New South Wales and Victoria has resulted in driving voters from the country districts into the cities, and that when normal conditions are restored they will drift back to their former places, of residence. It is suggested, therefore, that the distributions made by the Commissioners would involve serious inequalities. I should be perfectly willing to support the Government if I thought they aimed at securing for every vote an equal value, but I believe that their proposal will intensify the inequality 'which would obtain if the distributions proposed by the Commissioners were carried out. I feel very strongly upon another point. When we were discussing the suspension of the fodder duties with a view to afford relief to the drought-stricken settlers, we found it difficult to persuade the Government that any drought existed. The honorable member for Gippsland told us that we were endeavouring to secure a modicum of free- trade by a subterfuge, and the honorable member for Moira informed us that we were squealing for assistance which would not have been needed if ordinary foresight had been exercised by the settlers in the drought-stricken districts. Now we find that Ministers have a very different story to tell. As soon as it was discovered that the proposed distributions of the electorates would seriously affect some members of the Ministry and their followers, they contended that no fail- distribution could be made, because the drought had caused an exodus of population from a large area of the inland districts. They found no fault with the New South Wales and Victorian Commissioners, but some suggestion of improper influence was made in connexion with the work of the Commissioner for Queensland. It is admitted by the Government, who ask us to reject the work of the Electoral Commissioners, that the reports of those officers are based upon the figures with which they had to deal, and are in accordance with the Act under which they were required to work. Whilst I admit that, to a certain extent, drought conditions have influenced the removal of the population from the country, I do not agree that normal conditions will so re-adjust matters that the electoral divisions which the Government desire us to accept, will reflect, even in a reasonable degree, the principle of giving to every vote in the State, as nearly as possible, an equal value. No doubt, since the drought has broken up, there has been a considerable return of population from the city to the country. This is evidenced in the case of the Darling electorate, which suffered from the effects of the drought quite, as acutely as did any other constituency in New South Wales. As a result there was a considerable exodus of population from that district. Yet, according to the figures which were quoted by the leader of the Opposition, and the accuracy of which has not been controverted, there has recently been an increase of more than a thousand male voters in that electorate. That division is now only about 140 males short of the voting power which it possessed when the Federal elections took place. Of course, a wide distinction must be drawn between mining districts and those whose interests are either pastoral or agricultural.0 4509 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - 1 beg to call attention to the state of the Committee. [Quorum formed.] 4509 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - Whilst the people who were driven by drought from the mining districts of the States will rapidly return to them under the altered conditions which now obtain, that remark is not applicable to' the same extent to agricultural and grazing districts. The return of population to the latter will be much more gradual. I regret that in New South Wales sufficient inducement has not been forthcoming to attract people to the agricultural and pastoral districts in which they resided eight or ten years ago, before the localities in question were afflicted by drought. I know that as regards the western parts of New South Wales that remark is specially applicable. There has been a gradual exodus of population from those districts during the past eight or ten years. The Minister, therefore, has not merely to provide for an abnormal condition of things which will remedy itself within the next year, or within two or three years: For example, in 1901 the drought-stricken divisions of Darling, Barrier, Riverina, Canobolas, Robertson, Bland, Macquarie, Gwydir, and Hume contained 96,505 male voters. According to the returns of last year, upon which the Electoral Commissioner based his divisions, they contained only 89,915 male electors - a decrease of 6,595. But the revised returns, which were prepared towards- the close of last year, and at the beginning of the present year, show that at the present time there are 94,104 male electors in those divisions, so that the decrease, comparing the latest figures with the number of voters which the divisions contained when the last Federal election took place, represents only 2,406 voters. 4510 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - Do they comprise the drought-stricken districts? 4510 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - They were more or less drought-stricken. 4510 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The electorate of Hume was not drought-stricken. 4510 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - If the honorable gentleman travels through his electorate he will find that the people residing there suffered severely from the drought. With the exception of Orange, which is favorably situated, all parts of my electorate suffered severely, and the further west I travel the greater, I find, have been the ravages of the drought. As compared with th% number of electors in the Hume division at the last general elections, I find that, when the Commissioner framed his scheme, there was a shortage of only 583 male voters, and, according to the latest returns, there is now a shortage of only 108 male voters. The same remark applies to all the other electorates. Of the nine electorates which I have named, those which show to the best advantage are Darling and Barrier. The number of male voters in Darling is only about 140 less than was the number on the rolls at the last general elections, while the number of male voters in Barrier is only about 149 short. We have to remember that the divisions on which the first Federal Parliament was elected were based upon the principle of one man one vote, and that we have now extended the franchise to women. The extension of the franchise to the women of the Commonwealth is responsible for the great difference in the number of electors in the existing States divisions, as compared with the electorates framed by the Commissioners. In the electorates I have mentioned the returns show that there is a shortage of only 2,309 male voters as compared with the number on the rolls at the last general elections ; but, so far as the female voters are concerned, there is a remarkable disparity between those divisions and the city and suburban constituencies. We find, according to the figures which Mr. Houston had for his guidance when preparing his scheme of distribution, that there were from 10,000 up to 17,000 females in each of the fourteen electorates comprising large centres of population, while there were from 8,000 down to 4,000 in each of the twelve country electorates. . In the electorate of Darling, for example, there were only 4,189 female voters, in Riverina 5,571, and Barrier 5,577, while in the electorate of Lang there were 17,500, in the electorate of Parkes 17,776, and in the electorate of North Sydney 17,697. The fact that we have extended the franchise to women is responsible for the great difference between the conditions ' which prevailed when the Government of New South Wales prepared the first Federal Divisions, and those which obtained when the Commissioner was required to make his distribution. I hold that, in this respect, no removal of abnormal drought conditions will make any alteration. These facts must be taken into consideration. If we have two or three good seasons the Minister will find that, if he desires to adhere to the principles underlying the legislation which his Government has succeeded in passing, a very radical alteration in the electoral divisions of New South Wales will be necessary. Believing, as I thoroughly do, in the principle of one adult one vote, I fail to see any reason for giving voting power practically to gum trees and acres. That is what in effect we shall do if we depart from the principle of the Electoral Act. What do the Government propose to do 1 They have asked the House to reject the scheme submitted by the Commissioner appointed by them to divide New South Wales into electoral divisions, on the ground that the drought conditions, of which we ore asked to believe' they were not cognizant until the report was submitted, seriously affected the population of country districts. They assert, however, that as soon as the effects of the drought have disappeared many people who were forced to leave the country districts will return, and that the 'old State divisions will more truly give expression to the principle of one adult one vote than would the divisions framed by the Commissioner. If I believed that assertion I should heartily support the action of the Government. But as I consider that in dealing with this question factors other than the recent drought have to be borne in mind - that the extension of the franchise to women has really brought about a great difference in numbers - and as I desire that the spirit of the Electoral Act shall be observed, I feel bound to record my vote against the Ministerial' proposal. Do the Government propose to observe the spirit of the law? They have rejected the report of the Commissioner for New South Wales on the ground that it does not give expression to the principles of the Electoral Act, inasmuch as it fails to take into consideration the abnormal drought conditions which prevailed in New South Wales, and they urge us to pass a piece of legislation that will enable them to revert to the old State divisions at the next general elections. I contend, however, that those divisions do not and will not give expression to the principle of one vote one value which underlies their legislation. What do the Government .propose to do with respect to the Electoral Act which they have passed ? Do they intend to abrogate the principle of one vote one value by resorting to arbitrary States divisions which were framed without regard to it ? Let them come out into the open, and let us have a straight-out fight. If they believe that the drought has been responsible for the inequality in numbers in many of the electorates to which they refer, and that as soon as it3 effects have disappeared people who left the country districts will return to them, . and thus enable the Commissioners to divide the States into divisions that will be in accord with our legislation, let them boldly say so. Do the Government propose to give effect to the legislation which was enacted by Parliament at their instance, by returning the proposed distributions to the Commissioners, or do they wish to abrogate the provisions of the Act by providing for the retention of the existing divisions, and allowing the present inequalities to continue ? If the Government proposed to carry into effect the letter and spirit of the legislation which we have passed, I would support them, but as it seems to me that they intend to abrogate it, I shall vote against them. 4511 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - As by this Bill we are being asked to abrogate the provisions pf the Electoral Act, I draw the attention of honorable members to the wording of section 12, wherein it is provided that - Each State shall he distributed into Electoral Divisions equal in number to the number of Members of the House of Representatives to be chosen therein, and one Member of the House of Representatives shall be chosen in each Division. Under that provision distributions were made by Commissioners, and two of those distributions were approved of by the House, because they could not be said to conflict with the interests of honorable members. The four other distributions, however, were disapproved of, although no adequate reason was given for that course, because even the Minister did not challenge the capacity or impartiality of the Commissioners. The Government and those who support them put forward the excuse that there has been a drought; but it has been shown that the New South Wales Commissioner made a very big allowance on that score. The fact that there was a drought is an extraordinary discovery for the Ministry to make, seeing that when it was actually in existence they were unable to realize the fact, because they wished to wring .£500,000 out of the pockets of those who were suffering through it. 4511 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Is the honorable member in order in speaking from the position which he now occupies, since standing order 48 says that - The front seats, Dearest to the right hand of the Speaker, shall be reserved for Ministers holding office under the Crown ? 4511 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - May I call your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that members of the Government are not now present to occupy the seats referred to in the standing order, and that when Ministers are here, they frequently sit in other parts of the chamber. I am aware that it is inconvenient to' have honorable members of the Opposition sitting on "the front seats nearest to the right hand of the Speaker but what are we to do ? We rise to address the Committee, and find ourselves confronted with rows of empty benches. Therefore, in sheer desperation, and to emphasize the fact that when this most important question is under discussion, members of the Government and their supporters do not think it worth while to be present, some of us crossed the floor this afternoon, and took our seats in the places usually, reserved for Ministers. 4511 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir William McMillan - I would also suegest, Mr. Chairman, that, owing to the frequent changes in the constitution of the Government which have taken place recently, you may not know that the honorable member for Werriwa is not now a member of the Cabinet. 4512 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It is not the practice of the Chair to interfere with honorable members in regard to a matter of this kind ; but, as my attention has been directed to the standing order, I must rule that honorable members are not in order in occupying, seats reserved for Ministers. 4512 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I might have saved you the trouble of ruling, Mr. Chairman, by pointing out that, as I was addressing the Chair, I was standing, and therefore could not be held to be occupying a seat. Since the members of the Government, and those who sit behind them, who should be the ' strongest supporters of the law, are desirous of abrogating its provisions, it is only seemly that the members of the Opposition, who wish to see the law carried into effect, should take their places. The Minister in charge of the Bill seems to object to the discussion which we have had, and his attitude reminds me of a scene in an old play, in which a number of rogues complained to the King that they were, forced to carry on their felonious proceedings at night-time, because, if they thieved during the hours of daylight, the police would catch them, while even in the small hours of the morning they were liable to molestation. The Minister should not complain of waste of time, since he was able to get the second reading of this important measure carried during one sitting, ' though only because those who are in favour of it did not see fit to enlighten the House as to the reasons which actuated them in voting for it. The Electoral Act having provided for the distribution of each State into divisions, goes on to say in section 15 that - For the purposes of this Act a quota shall be ascertained in each State as follows : - The whole number of electors in each State, as nearly as can be ascertained, shall be divided by the number of Members of the House of Representatives to be chosen therein. Until rolls are compiled all persons qualified to have their names placed on a roll shall be deemed to be electors for the purposes of this Part of this Act. The Commissioners, however, are allowed in making any distribution to - adopt a margin of allowance, to be used whenever necessary, but in no case shall such quota be departed from to a greater extent than one-fifth more or one-fifth less. The Bill before us does not repeal those provisions. All it does is to provide that the electoral divisions made under the law of a State shall be taken to be divisions within the meaning of the Electoral Act. That being so, if the measure is . passed as it stands, I shall challenge in the High Court the right of any honorable member elected under it to take his seat in this Chamber. 4512 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - The honorable member will provide plenty of work for the lawyers. 4512 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - As I have pointed out before, a large part of our legislation seems to be framed to give work to the lawyers. Unless we repeal sections 15 and 16 we shall find ourselves in a difficulty. Clause 1 of the Bill reads - This Act may be cited as the Electoral Divisions Act 1903, and shall be construed and read as one with the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902. There will be some little difficulty in reading and construing the Bill with the Electoral Act, unless sections 15 and 16 are repealed. Is it not perfectly clear that it is impossible for us to comply with the requirements of sections 15 and 16 if we adopt the distributions made under the States Electoral Acts 1 Therefore, our best course would be to repeal these two sections, and at a later stage I shall take steps in that direction. No doubt the Bill as it stands is an ingenious device on the part of the Ministers to accomplish their end without allowing the public to become , acquainted with what is really being done. The intention is to circumvent sections 15 and 16, but whether that intention can be carried out in the manner proposed is a matter for argument. The High Court, might hold that clause 2 is mandatory, and that it overrides the sections of the Act to which I have been referring, but on the other hand they might conceive it to be their duty to give effect to the provisions of the Act, and to regard the clause in this Bill as useless and mischievous. Over three months ago I pointed out what was likely to occur. I was then told that I was wrong to accuse the Government of improper designs in regard to the distributions, but events have proved the correctness of my view, and have shown that the indignation of the Minister at my repeated suggestions that the distributions would not be carried out was merely simulated. I am pleased to think that although some honorable . members are bent upon voting for the clause, very few indeed have the courage to defend it. The Minister now contends that there would not be time to refer the reports back to the Commissioners. Three weeks ago he said the exact opposite. At that time thirty days were required for the publication of the redistributions, and another thirty days had to elapse before the Revision Court could be held. The effect of the amendment proposed by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, would be to reduce the sixty days to fourteen days, so that there would be a saving of forty-six days. Only twenty-one days have elapsed since the Minister made his first statement, and although a net saving of twenty-five clays would be effected under the proposal of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, the Minister still raises the time difficulty. Many honorable members in this House are acting in utter disregard of principle, but I trust that Parliament may yet refuse to stultify itself in the way now proposed. There would be an end to all honesty in public life if the professions of honorable members in this matter proved to be utterly untrustworthy. It is only by adhering to those great moral principles that form the very basis of our civilization that we can carry on the operations of every-day life. We are now asked to act in defiance of a law to which "we ourselves assented. When I see the way in which the Ministry can sometimes induce men who are otherwise honorable to do something which is absolutely and entirely wrong, I am led to reflect how much care ought to be exercised in the constitution of a Government. 4513 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -I must ask the honorable and learned member not to discuss the motives of Ministers or of honorable members. 4513 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I regret that in Parliament I cannot express in plain language my idea of what the Ministry have done. I recognise that the proper place to do that is outside. I shall certainly- express iny opinion of their action upon the public platform, and I venture to say that for so doing not one of them will institute an action for libel against me. What they propose constitutes such an absolute contravention of the law which was enacted by this Parliament that the more one examines it the more one sees how utterly wrong it is. Of course, I can understand the honorable member for Gippsland objecting to any alteration being made in the existing boundaries. But I hold that Parliament having enacted a certain law, it is our duty to obey it, and to insist that it shall be carried out in its integrity. If the excuse urged by the honorable member were sufficient, it would justify a man in breaking every law that has been enacted. A greater outrage upon the electors of Australia has never been perpetrated. The worst feature in connexion with the whole affair is that the people generally do not realize the importance which attaches to the exercise of the rights which they enjoy. If in Australia every elector had had to fight for his right to exercise a voice in the selection of Parliamentary representatives, he would guard it much more jealously than he does. Under the proposals of the Government, 100,000 electors in New South Wales will be deprived of their votes. No one can deny that that is the effect of the legislation proposed, because it is admitted that in the State in question, 213,000 electors will return only the same number of representatives to this House as do 111,000. I trust that the action taken by Mr. Reid to draw attention to the tactics which have been resorted to upon the present occasion will bear good fruit. To my mind, the Minister for Trade and Customs must be a very close disciple of Governor Gerry of Massachusetts. If the electors of the Commonwealth do not hurl out of power those who assent to these proposals, it will be a bad outlook for our future Parliaments. 4513 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable and learned member is again transgressing the rules of debate. He must not discuss the action of Ministers. 4513 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I understood your ruling to be that improper motives must not be attributed to them. I must be at perfect liberty to discuss the action of any Minister, otherwise there would be an end to all discussion. If the Ministry are not prepared to accept the divisions recommended by Mr. Houston, let them call for a fresh distribution, but by all means let us observe the provisions of the Electoral Act. I wish that the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, who, as Minister for Trade and Customs, insisted that the law should be obeyed, were as imperative in that direction upon the present occasion. If that had been the point upon which he severed his connexion with the Ministry, I should honour him for it. 4514 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must again ask the honorable and learned member not to transgress the rules of debate. 4514 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - In order to show the hollowness of the Ministerial argument, I would point out that section 50 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act provides that - A new roll for any division, or new rolls for all divisions in a State, shall be prepared whenever directed by proclamation and in the manner therein specified. Thus it is absolutely within the power of the Minister to obtain a new roll practically up to within a few days of the general elections. Section 52 provides that - Rolls shall be printed whenever the Minister so directs. It is therefore within the power of the Minister to obtain fresh rolls at any time, and he should take the responsibility for any delay that has occurred in dealing with this matter. By all means let the blame rest upon the proper shoulders. What is to become of Executive Government if a Ministry is to accept no responsibility for its action ? If the rolls that are now being compiled are not being prepared in a proper way, the blame must rest with the Minister. It may be that he has made an unwise selection of officers to carry out the work. If that be so, he should dismiss them at once. Instead of doing anything of the kind, however, he is seeking now to do these officers greater honour. If they have been guilty of one-tenth of the charges which he makes against them, they should be dismissed with ignominy from the service. Section 53 of the Electoral Act provides that - Supplemental rolls, setting out additions and alterations since the last print, shall also be printed immediately after the holding of each Revision Court and immediately previous to a general election. The House foresaw that some delay might take place in the preparation of the rolls, and it therefore expressly provided for the printing of supplemental rolls. Can any honorable member, after his attention has been drawn to these provisions, say that we have not time to return the various rejected distributions to the Commissioners, and to deal with revised schemes before the next general election ? In view of these provisions in the Electoral Act can it be said that the action of the Government has been due to a desire to study the interests of the electors ? Then, again, section 55 provides that - New names may be added to the roll pursuant to - Claims, Applications to transfer, Lists prepared by the returning officer for each division ; while it is set forth in section 57 that - If the claim is in order, the returning officer or registrar shall, pursuant to the claim, immediately enter the claimant's name, and the particulars relating to him, on the roll, and shall file the claim. It will thus be seen that there is no necessity for any delay. Any elector, no matter where he may be residing, may apply, at practically the last moment, to have his name placed on the roll. Lists could be prepared a month before the day of election, and exhibited in public places ; and if any elector found that his name had been omitted, he would be able to at once apply to have the omission rectified. 4514 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - That would not be a very easy thing to do in the country. 4514 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - In view of the sections I have read, the Minister's argument falls to the ground. The honorable gentleman said that he was led to ask the House to reject the schemes relating to the distribution of New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, and Western Australia in the interests of the people, and that many country electorates were deserted by hundreds of people in consequence of the drought. We find, however, that the number of male voters on the electoral lists is practically the same as the number on the rolls compiled three years ago. As the honorable member for Canobolas has shown, there is now a shortage of only some 140 male voters in the electorate of Riverina, and a short- . age of something like 120 male voters in Barrier. 4514 KYT 0 0 KNOX, William Mr Knox - Have all the lists been exhibited? 4514 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Yes ; and I am informed that further additions have recently been made, with the result that the discrepancy is now less than it was when the distribution of New South Wales was carried out. The Government are proposing, however, that we should abrogate the main principles of our Electoral law. Why should honorable members pretend that they favour a certain principle by passing a law to give effect to that principle, and then support the adoption of a course which will be wholly contrary to it? Why should the Minister say that he believes in the principle of one vote one value when he is asking the House to act in a way that will render it impossible to give effect to it? If he objects to the law as it stands, he should seek not to defy it, but to have it amended. He should not, as a member of the Executive, refuse to carry out the law as it stands. When a Minister declines to carry out the provisions of an Act, he is, in effect, making. law instead of administering it. If we revert to the existing divisions in New South Wales and Victoria, the women of those States will reap very little advantage from the extension of the franchise to them. I have never held that wonderful reforms are likely to follow the extension of the franchise to women. I was never strongly in favour of that principle ; but, inasmuch as we have provided for it, it is not for us now to depart from that provision in our Electoral law, unless we boldly declare that we consider a mistake has been made, and proceed straightway to amend the Act in that direction. Let us do boldly what some honorable members are now secretly endeavouring to do. The Minister is secretly endeavouring to bring about a position of affairs under which the extension of the franchise to women in certain States will be of no real advantage to them. Are we to go on ' in this way ? Are honorable members to stultify themselves merely because they consider that they must stand by the Ministerial proposal, whether it be right or wrong ? If it is to be a question of the Ministry, right or wrong, let us go before the country on that issue. Let us say that we go before the people, not as men able to think for ourselves, but as a mere body of automatons. There are many honorable members sitting behind the Government who I feel satisfied do not approve of what is being done, but are so subject to party discipline that they are becoming mere marionettes. 4515 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr Kennedy - Party discipline is a bad thing. 4515 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - It is when it leads men to act against their conscience, and to break the pledges which they made to the electors. Is it not time that we endeavoured to bring about a change ? Any honorable member who, after his election, has been led by study or otherwise to change strong views held by him in regard to any particular question should resign his seat rather than vote against a principle on which he was returned to Parliament. Otherwise, what is to become of our Parliamentary institutions ? 4515 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - It depends upon the lives we live. 4515 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - As long as a man keeps his word, I care not what he does. A man might commit technical offences against the law, but as long as they were not offences against the moral sense of the community, I should not object. I object, however, to any departure from the principle of truth. In this respect we should set the highest example to the people. Are we doing so ? Could there be better evidence that we are not than the fact that scarcely any honorable member has spoken in defence, of the action of the Government ? Indeed I would rather not have heard any speech at all than the remarks of one honorable member because they lowered him in my esteem. If honorable members on this side of the Chamber had been ready to break their faith, they could, on two or three occasions, have turned the Government out of office. But, although they considered the continuance of Ministers in office an evil which was not to be counterbalanced by the good to be derived from any of the measures they proposed, yet, as they had professed themselves in favour of those measures, they gave the Ministry the support necessary to have them placed on the statute-book. If people generally ceased to act according to their belief as to what was right, what would become of all government and all civilization ? Truth is the basic principle underlying all religions, the very light shining from the countenance of the Almighty. Since we have solemnly announced our belief in great principles, and embodied them in a statute, we should not go back upon them. What the Minister should have done was to say - " The rolls are not ready, so the proper distributions cannot be made, and as the Ministerial head of the Department I take the blame upon myself." If he had done that, we should have known- how to act. He tells us in effect, however, that the rolls are correct, and that everything is prepared, but that the proposed distributions will not suit some of the Ministerial supporters. Could there be a worse reason for disapproving of them ? No doubt every honorable member, to make sure of his own election, would like to represent a constituency consisting of one person. But we should be careful lest we come to be called the second " Rump" Parliament. Honorable gentleman will remember that in Cromwell's time a Parliament so-called tried to provide that it should exist for ever, and honorable members who are supporting the Bill are practically actuated by the same desire as actuated the members of that Parliament. It is with the greatest regret that I have seen honorable members so blinded by party considerations that they are ready to vote for what they believe to be wrong. I intend, in order that there shall be no incongruity between the Bill and the Electoral Act, to move an amendment providing for the repeal of sections 15 and 16, so that the intention of the Legislature may be made manifest. 4516 KEW South Australia 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I shall vote for the amendment, and I shall do so out of fidelity to the Electoral Act, which was introduced and carried through Parliament by the Government of which I had the honour to be a member. As regards some of its most important principles, it was agreed to with practical unanimity by the members of both branches of the Legislature. 4516 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I draw attention, Mr. Chairman, to the state of the Committee. I am quite sure that the deliverance which we are about to hear will be worthy of a proper audience. [Quorum formed."] 4516 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - The two principles to which I specially refer are those of one adult one vote and one-vote-one-value, which was adopted, subject to certain limitations ; and another of equal importance, that no division should be adopted for future elections unless it had been recommended by an impartial officer appointed by the Governor-General in Council, an officer who knew no party, and whose duty was, subject to the directions contained in the Act, to do what he thought right under all the circumstances of the case.' Has any argument been advanced against that principle 1 I have spoken previously in regard to the adoption of the principle of one-vote-one- value. Personally, I should prefer to see no limitation to that principle. I take it that every elector has an equal right to -a voice in the affairs of the Commonwealth, whether he lives in the country or in a town. It should not follow that because a country resident removes to a town the effect of his vote shall be in any way diminished, nor should the reverse occur. There were other honorable members, however, who held a different view, and an attempt was made to arrive at a compromise. While I cannot find within the four corners of the Act an exact declaration, such as I should have desired, of the positive equality of electors, the views of honorable members on both sides of the Chamber were fairly met by the adoption of a provision allowing a Commissioner to depart from the quota by a margin not exceeding one-fifth more or one-fifth less. Therefore, if the quota foi- a State were 25,000, it would be possible for a Commissioner to arrange the borders of two divisions so that one should contain 20,000 electors and the other 30,000, a difference surely large enough to satisfy every one. It was considered a fair arrangement by both branches of the Legislature, although at the time the drought, to which reference has been made, was at its very worst. The Act declares in trumpet tones that, subject to specified conditions, there shall be equality of votes. It does not provide that in all cases a distinction shall be drawn between country and town electors. 4516 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - The margin is to be used "whenever necessary:" 4516 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Quite so. The wording of the provision to which the honorable and learned member refers shows that it is not to be considered necessary to use the margin in all cases, and I am inclined to think, although I have not looked into the question very closely, since I am i content to take whatever fate allots in a matter of this kind, that the South Australian divisions are practically equal. My point is that Parliament and the Government knew what they were doing when they passed the Act. We were in the very middle of the drought when the Government proposed a certain margin, and that margin was cut down in this Chamber, and the lower margin of one-fifth to which I have referred adopted. On the question of the difference between country and town divisions, 1 know that as a matter of fact a larger percentage of the number of electors on the roll goes to the ballot-box in the country districts than records its votes in the town 'divisions. That arises to a great extent from the fact that the city population is largely a floating one, and consists of workers who move hither and thither to secure opportunities of employment, so that at election time they are often not within a convenient distance of the division to which they belong, and in which they are entitled to record their votes. Time and again that has been proved to be the case in South Australia- 4517 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - That would hardly apply to such large electorates as are provided for under the Federal distributions. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Indeed it' would. 4517 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - Not to the same extent as in electorates containing only a few thousand voters. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I venture to say that in the south-eastern district of South Australia, containing a farming and pastoral pojralation, a much larger proportion of voters will poll than in the city of Adelaide. 4517 KIN PROT; IND from 1910 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The experience in New South Wales has, in nearly all cases, been quite the opposite. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - I am only speaking of that which I know in my own State. 4517 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - The right honorable gentleman is applying his local knowledge of South Australia to the whole of the Commonwealth. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - South Australia is of very considerable area. I do not say that the people in the agricultural districts take a greater interest in politics, but they are on the spot at election times, and as the polling places are numerous, the percentage of votes recorded in such cases is much larger than in the towns. Are we going back upon what we declared last year? I do not intend to do anything of the kind until I am convinced of an absolute necessity, and I know of no necessity. The Minister told us that he had done his duty, and I have every reason to believe that he has. . He informed us, further, that if the House decided upon having fresh distributions in the ordinary way, ample time could be allowed for referring the reports back to the Commissioners. What. would be the effect of the amendment proposed by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn? To give the Minister additional power by shortening the time necessary for the purpose. Whereas thirty days were required to comply with , certain provisions of the Act, we propose to reduce the period to seven days, and that surely should assist him to a great extent. He will have twenty-three additional days in which to perform all the other acts necessary to secure the adoption of a fresh distribution. . I am sure that the Minister will not attempt to shield himself by suggesting that he has not time to refer the reports back to the Commissioners. He told us some few days ago that there was time for him to do so, and we now propose to assist him by smoothing the way for a rigid and proper adherence to the terms of the Act. Are honorable, members not content with a difference of 50 per cent, between the number of electors in one constituency and in another ? 4517 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It is not a difference of 50, but of 40 per cent. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON -Suppose we adopt 20,000 as the quota. One-fifth of 20,000 would be 4,000, and would result in a minimum of 16,000. One-fifth added to 20,000 would result in a maximum of 24,000. The difference between 24,000 and 16,000 would be 8,000, or 50 per cent, of 16,000. 4517 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - If the figures are taken the other way, 8,000 represents only 33£ per cent, of 24,000. 4517 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - There is no other way of applying the percentage than that which I have adopted. A margin of one-fifth above or below the quota is permitted, and there is no getting away from the result which I have stated. I take it that the Minister does not seriously contend that he cannot refer the reports back to the Commissioners on account of the want of time, because such a position would be inconsistent with his previous statement. The amendment of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mir. Glynn, is wisely conceived for the purpose of removing the possibility of difficulty in regard to time. If there be any difficulty with regard to the distribution of the electorates, is not a margin, of 50 per cent, sufficiently large? I venture to say that every honorable member who looks at the question fairly will come to the conclusion that it is sufficient. But something else is proposed, apparently because 50 per cent, is not regarded as sufficient. Let us have equality of voting power by all means. I concede a margin of 50 per cent, because I cannot help it, but any further variation cannot possibly commend itself to honorable members generally, and I hope that no slight excuse will be regarded as sufficient to justify us in going back to the conditions of years ago, and of retaining the divisions as we then found them. 4518 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - We have to take into account the addition to the voting strength of the electorates brought about by the extension of the franchise to women. 4518 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr KINGSTON - Yes, that has resulted in a large addition to the number of voters. At the inception of Federation only one State elected its members upon the adult franchise, and that was South Australia. Now the franchise is uniform throughout the Commonwealth. Surely the progress of events during the last three years has been sufficient to justify the fresh distribution directed by the Electoral Act - a direction which was decided upon when we knew all the circumstances, and knew what was wanted. We then provided for a distribution by an officer properly qualified for the -work, and declared that no distribution other than that recommended by him should be accepted. Can we go back upon that ? Are we going to disregard the principle of one vote one value even with the limitation I have stated, or go back upon the more important provision in the Act that it shall not be within the power of the Minister to do what he pleases. with regard to the distribution of the electorates? We then decided that there should be no interference with the action of the Commissioner, except so far as Parliament might interpose in the interests of the people. We acted wisely, and we should adhere to the principles then laid down. We acted, not under the influence of heat or 'passion, but deliberately, and for the good of the country. I do not for a moment suggest that the Government, with whom I had the honour to be associated, or honorable members generally, or any section of them, are desirous of "gerrymandering," or anything of that kind, but I do say that we ought in the public interest to preserve the safeguards between ourselves and the public. We ought to recollect that naturally each one of us may be somewhat biased in his views. The best of us, and all are good, approach elections naturally inclined to think of - perhaps to dwell unconsciously upon - what may suit our views. I venture to think that it is highly probable that any distribution that might be adopted would involve alterations to the prejudice of some of the sitting members. Let us pledge ourselves to adhere to that which we rightly provided to prevent considerations of that sort from swaying us too much. We did it purposely, we did it for all time, we did it for the forthcoming election, and had no thought but for that which was good. Shall we, as the elections are more nearly approaching, in our heat and fear that the distribution may affect us, abandon the safeguards which we ourselves deliberately provided for the public good, and against the operation of influences which ought not to prevail in such matters as are now under consideration ? I have no sympathy with the suggestions made against the Government. I do not believe that they are capable of doing that which has been attributed to them. But it is a pity that the appearances are such that suggestions of the kind should have been possible. I say, further, that the action now proposed would form a mischievous precedent. What might be done innocently to-day might be done mischievously to-morrow. Let us do what we / can for the honour of the Australian Parliament, for our own honour, and for the good of the country to which we are proud to belong. Let us hold fast to that which we deliberately provided, and do everything we can to strengthen the hands of the Government to give effect to what is necessary on that behalf. The honorable and learned member for South Australia Mr. Glynn seeks only that. Let us give the Government the advantage in the matter of time, or any other facility that may be desired. At the same time let us resolve that we shall not surrender the principle of one vote one value, subject to the limitations to which I referred. Let us pay full heed to the still greater principle. that, in the distribution of the States, we shall not be left to our own unbridled will, but that we shall be guarded by official assistance and impartial advice against such mistakes as that into which we are invited to fall to-day. 4518 KYR Kalgoorlie 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr KIRWAN - The speech to which we have just listened is well worthy of the right honorable gentleman who delivered it. Those honorable members who have differed from him on questions of policy have never accused him of inconsistency, and he has to-day afforded another proof of his strong adherence to principle. He has shown that the subject is one which should be discussed apart from all party considerations, quite apart from all personal feeling as to the effects of the distributions. The only objection raised by the Minister to the amendment proposed by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, is that the proposed period of seven days would not be sufficient to enable the requirements of the Act to be complied with. The Minister referred to the enormous area of some of the States, and to the difficulties in the way of receiving objections, and of publishing the proposals of the Commissioners throughout the various States within the time specified. I would point out that if seven days are insufficient, thirty days would also be insufficient for the publication of the distributions in every small town in the States. It would take many months to publish the distributions throughout Western Australia, but the large centres of population in that State could be easily reached within the seven days . proposed. The amendment does not contemplate the limitation of the period for the publication of distributions submitted by the Commissioners in the first instance, but applies only to the revised reports, and therefore it seems to me that there is not much strength in the objection raised by the Minister on that score. If we send back the proposals to the Commissioners we shall simply require them to follow upon the lines adopted in the cases of South Australia and Tasmania. The right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, declared that, in the case of South Australia and Tasmania, the policy of equal electorates had been adopted by the Commissioners as nearly as practicable. Reference to the reports of those officers will show that that is so. In South Australia, the constituency of East Torrens contains the largest number of voters under the proposal which has been accepted by the Government, and that of Barker the smallest, the figures being 26,727 and 21,791 respectively. The difference between the two is 4,936. Yet - as was pointed out by the previous speaker - it was quite possible for the Commissioner to have made a difference of 10,000 electors between the numerical strength of the largest constituency and that of the smallest, and still to have complied with the Act. In Tasmania the Electoral Commissioner has adhered even more closely to the principle which the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, and those who support him desire to see established. In the island State the division which contains the largest number of voters is Northcote and that which contains the smallest is Darwin. The former possesses 17,314 electors and the latter 15,134, a difference of 2,180. It is obvious, therefore, that the divisions effected in the two States in regard to which the recommendations of the Commissioners were accepted, approach very closely to equal electorates on the basis of one vote one value. Under the electoral divisions to which the Government desire the House to revert, the discrepancies will be much greater, and much in excess of what was contemplated under the provisions of the Electoral Act. In some of the States the figures are not yet complete, but in Western Australia the greatest difference which obtains is in respect of the divisions of Perth and Fremantle. The margin in that case represents 7,226 voters. In Queensland the difference between the largest electorate and the smallest represents very nearly 50 per cent., the figures being 33,053 in the division of Brisbane as against 16,480 in Maranoa - a margin of 16,573. In New South Wales the figures are incomplete. 4519 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I endeavoured to obtain the complete figures by telegraph to-day, but I cannot do so. 4519 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr KIRWAN - I am merely pointing out that the figures in New South Wales are incomplete. In Victoria we are unable to secure any figures regarding the number of electors upon the rolls for each division. The least that the Government could have done in asking us to sanction a scheme of this character was to supply us with as full particulars as possible. Probably if the figures were available the discrepancies in Victoria would be greater than those which obtain in any other State. I should have thought that' the Government would have been only too glad to accept the proposal of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. It would have released them from a very awkward position, and would have shown that they desired to secure a complete distribution of seats -upon a fair basis. If their motives were all that they represent them to be, they would not hesitate to accept that proposal. It is scarcely necessary for me to point out that very serious charges are levelled against the Government outside of this House. Those charges are of such a nature that every member of the Ministry, and every Government supporter, ought to bitterly resent them. The Ministry are charged with considering, not the interests of the electors and of the Commonwealth generally, but those of their own party and individual members of this Chamber. That is a matter which affects every representative in this House, and one would naturally expect tbeGoverninentto rise superior to such allegations by asserting that they were prepared to again remit this question to Commissioners who are absolutely impartial, and to abide by their decision. Instead of doing so, they have devised one excuse after another to prevent an unbiased electoral division of the States. That is not what we expected from the first Australian Government. Certainly the Ministerial attitude upon this question has come as a surprise to me, because I anticipated that they would rise above party or political considerations. The charges which have been made outside the House imply that there are certain honorable members whose positions would be very seriously jeopardized if the proposals of the Commissioners were adopted. Indeed, I have heard it suggested that even the Prime Minister himself would not feel too secure. The Minister for Trade and Customs, in the course of his speech, inferred that time was being wasted by honorable members upon this side of the House. In answer to that suggestion I would point out that when the honorable member for Macquarie moved the adjournment of the 'House some months ago, for the purpose of calling attention to the delays which had taken place in putting the machinery provided by the Electoral Act into motion, the Minister admitted that he had allowed five weeks to elapse from the time that Act was assented to before making any attempt' to comply with its provisions. He did nothing whatever during that period. At the end of the five weeks he forwarded a circular to the States Governments, asking if they would co-operate with him in the collection of the Federal rolls. The interval between the end of that five weeks and six months was wasted in correspondence with the States Governments, and the usual red-tapism. Practically nothing was done by the Minister till the Commissioners were appointed, six months after the Act had been assented to. 4520 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Electoral Commissioner for New South Wales was not appointed till about four weeks ago. 4520 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr KIRWAN - Exactly ; yet the Minister has the temerity to suggest that time has been wasted by honorable members upon this side of the House. The blame really rests with the honorable gentleman himself. Indeed, the Government are responsible for the whole muddle into which our electoral affairs have drifted. I intend to support the proposal of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. 4520 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - In my opinion the proposal of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, affords the Government and Parliament an opportunity to save its reputation for decency and honesty, and to take up a dignified position by remitting to an independent person the work of distributing the States into divisions for future elections. Surely if that principle were a sound one when we passed the Electoral Act, it is equally sound to-day. If honorable members desire to know the attitude upon this matter which should be taken up by a high-minded Ministry, they have but to refer to the speech of a late member of it, that of the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston. He has taken up the attitude which would be adopted by a Government which considered that it held in its hands the reputation of Parliament, and that it was its duty not merely to refuse to do anything which would stain that reputation, but to abstain from committing an act which would seem to cast a reflection either upon the motives of Ministers or upon the motives of Parliament. I am sure that the position assumed by the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr Kingston, is far more likely to accomplish that than is the attitude which has been adopted by Ministers. I wish to point out that we are deliberately departing from the provisions of the Electoral Act which was recently passed by us. We deliberately . provided in that measure that the considerations by which the Commissioners should . be guided in dividing the States into Federal electorates should be - Community or diversity of interest, Means of communication, Physical features, Existing boundaries of divisions ; And we declared that, subject to those considerations - The quota of electors shall be the basis for the distribution, and the Commissioner may adopt a margin of allowance, to be used whenever necessary - That is, whenever those considerations rendered it necessary to use them - but in no case shall such quota be departed from to a greater extent than one-fifth more or one-fifth less. Those are the considerations which we determined should justify any departure from the principle of equality of representation, and we- declared that in no case should the quota be departed from -to a greater extent than one-fifth more or one-fifth less.' No considerations other than these were to guide the Commissioners. Under this Act we declared, for example, that no temporary climatic conditions prevailing in any part of the Commonwealth should influence the determination of the Commissioners. No allowance was made in the Act for any such consideration, and yet, when it was before us, the drought, which is now put forward as a ground for the rejection of certain divisions, had reached its most acute stage. If that consideration was one which ought to have operated, why was it deliberately omitted from the Act itself, especially as it was then our unfortunate daily experience to learn of loss and disaster arising from the drought? Notwithstanding the provisions of the Electoral Act the Ministry intend to pay regard to a consideration for which it was not. deemed wise or necessary to provide. We have also the important fact that we have extended the franchise to women. Is that fact to have no significance in connexion with the forth coming elections ? Are we to go on as if no such change had been .made 1 I admit that in Western Australia and South Australia, in which women were already admitted to the franchise, the difficulties which this proposal will throw in the way of female voters will not be so great as in those States which comprise the great majority of the people of Australia, and in which female suffrage did not previously exist. In those States in which the franchise had not been extended to women prior to Federation, certain divisions existed, and the result of this extension of the franchise has been to nearly double the number of electors, and to give rise to great inequality in certain electorates. We are asked, however, to pay no regard to that fact. This is the first occasion on which this Parliament has ever thought of taking into its own hands the work of framing electorates for its own members. Honorable members had nothing to do with the divisions on which this House was originally elected. As members of this Parliament they had no voice in . the framing of those divisions. The boundaries were determined without consideration of their interests. They came together as a Parliament possessing apparently a higher sense of honour than is illustrated by the proposals now before us. Having then had experience in a division of the States without being personally concerned in the division, they declared - " We shall not put our hands to this work. We will place it under the authority of independent men." That was a proper attitude to take up, and we hoped that it would be observed foi: all time. I can safely say that I am not opposing the Government proposal from personal or party considerations. Even although the schemes of distribution submitted by the Commissioners operated more or less disadvantageously to particular members or to particular parties, I should not be found objecting to them provided the Government gave evidence of an -honest desire to abide by an independent decision. 1 feel that, for the sake of our own reputation, and in order to gain the confidence of the electors, there is nothing about which we ought to be more careful than the work of dividing the States into electorates, because it is work in relation to which we might unconsciously place our individual interests above the public welfare. As the right honorable member for South Australia has said, that may be done in the future. 4521 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - We should not be the sole judges in our own interests. 4521 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Exactly so. We should be satisfied to allow the independent authorities, who were selected because of their competency and honesty, to decide all. such matters for us. As a reason for his refusal to accept the amendment submitted by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, the Minister for Trade and Customs has again said that the original voters' lists were so materially affected by the effects of the drought, and that the latest figures which have been obtained are also affected so materially by like considerations, that it would be useless to again refer the distributions to the Commissioners. But the . honorable gentleman has not yet answered a statement which I made some days ago. I shall repeat it, and I call upon him to answer it if he can do so. I contend that under the Commissioners' schemes the electorates which the Minister declares have lost much of their population owing to the drought would obtain a larger measure of representation than they are entitled to in respect of any population that ever existed within their bounds. The Minister may say - " Oh, that may be so ; but those electorates will grow in the future, and we must make provision for the further increase that is likely to take place." But are we never to obtain a re-adjustment of electoral boundaries as long as there are growing districts within them ? Is that to be a reason for deferring the work of redistributing the States ? If so, we shall never have a redistribution. Any Minister who is called upon to arrange for the redistribution of Australia into electorates in the future will be confronted with difficulties not only as great but sometimes greater than those which present themselves to the Minister at the present time. Therefore, an argument of that kind is altogether fallacious. The New South Wales divisions which the Minister has named have received under the Commissioner's scheme a larger measure of representation than is justified by any population that was ever within their boundaries. The Minister also asserts that another difficulty in the way of the acceptance of the amendment proposed by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, is that the electoral lists are incomplete, that they have not been revised, and that they may comprise many names which ought not to appear upon them. But will not that objection apply to those lists when they are being used, as they will be, in connexion with the existing divisions? The lists of which the Minister makes this assertion must necessarily be the basis of the rolls. He says, however, that Revision Courts will be held, that those whose names have been omitted from the rolls will have an opportunity to rectify the. omission, and that the lists will be corrected and purged. But will not that remark apply with equal force to the rolls relating to the divisions as prepared by the Commissioners? In either case the rolls will have to be purged by the Revision Court. To sum up the position, therefore, the argument as to the effects of the drought on certain country electorates is met by the fact that the measure of representation accorded under the Commissioners' schemes to those divisions is larger than that to which they would have been entitled in respect of any population that ever existed within their boundaries, and the objections as to the incompleteness of the lists must apply, not only to the existing divisions, but to the electorates outlined by the Commissioners. These facts seem to me to completely dispose of the Minister's objections to this amendment. I regret the attitude taken up by the Government, quite independently of any effect it may have on the membership of the new Parliament, because we are departing deliberately, and for no sufficient reason, from what we have already determined to be the proper principles to secure the due representation of the people of Australia. The Minister has stated that there is time to comply with the provisions of the Act, and return the proposed distributions to the Commissioners so that they may submit fresh ones. The amendment of the honorable and learned member for South Austaalia, Mr. Glynn, by substituting for the period of thirty days for which under section 34 the lists must be exhibited, a period of seven days, would give twenty-three days more. By accepting that amendment the Minister would be taking a course which would do both ,him and his colleagues high honour in the future, and would be avoiding those conclusions which, in the absence of a good reason to the contrary, must obtain possession of men's minds. Above all, he would be keeping beyond suspicion that which I think is the highest possession of this Parliament - its honour before the people of Australia. 4522 L2I Macquarie FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I am not surprised that the Minister for Trade and Customs felt uncomfortable under the strong fire of criticism directed upon him by the right honorable member for South Australia, who, as an old colleague and friend, is anxious to save the Ministry from the imputation which must naturally rest upon them if they persist in this attempt to fasten upon the people of the Commonwealth an electoral law which will give unequal representation. 4522 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I draw attention to the state of the Committee. [Quorum formed.\ 4522 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I regret the absence of the Minister. If he feels that the matter is of such importance that the right honorable member for Swan, who succeeded him in the office of Minister for Home Affairs, cannot be fully conversant with it, he should remain in his place in the Chamber to explain his proposals to the Committee. Now we find, however, that not even the Minister for Home Affairs is present, and the Postmaster-General, who is left in charge, will, H feel sure, admit that he knows nothing whatever about the measure. 4523 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member may make that complaint in the House, but he must now confine his remarks to the clause before the Committee. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The House disapproved of certain proposed distributions, and the Minister thereupon regarded himself as the sole person capable of judging whether revised schemes of distribution should be submitted by the Commissioners. Instead of doing what the law required him to do, he has brought in a Bill to legalize an illegal act, and before I conclude my remarks I shall make a charge of a more serious nature against him and against the Government. If any one else had taken the action to which I refer he would be placed in the dock, and be made to answer for his conduct. 4523 JZT 0 0 FYSH, Philip Sir Philip FYSH - I ask that the honorable member be requested to withdraw that statement. 4523 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The statement is disorderly, and should be withdrawn. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I was interrupted before I had finished what I wished to say. I am ready to withdraw when honorable members have heard my charge. 4523 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Withdraw unconditionally. 4523 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member to assist the Chair in maintaining the rules of debate, and to withdraw unconditionally. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I withdraw in deference to your wish, Mr. Chairman, but a wrong interpretation has been placed upon what I desire to say. According to the Electoral Act, which became law at the instance of this Government, if any officer - and in this connexion the Minister is an officer - attempts to deprive an elector of his right to vote, he is liable to a penalty of £200, or, in default, imprisonment. The Minister, however, is trying to deprive 200,000 electors of the Commonwealth of their' representation. 4523 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - Parliament is omnipotent. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - No doubt a Government with a majority at its back can do, within limits,' anything it likes. The people will shortly have an opportunity of expressing their feelings with regard to the action of the Government, and I venture to say that their verdict will be unfavorable. I feel very warmly with regard to this matter, because, as the right honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, has pointed out, a very important principle is being entirely ignored. A great injustice is about to be inflicted upon 200,000 electors in the Commonwealth, and I feel sure that when the Minister goes before his constituents he will be unable to justify his action. The right honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, stated the case in such a way as to merit the consideration of honorable members on both sides of the Chair. He pointed out the risks that would attach to a departure from the main principle of the Electoral Act. The right honorable gentleman further stated that he did not believe that the Government had acted from unworthy motives, as had been suggested, but he pointed out that grave suspicion would undoubtedly attach to them if the present Bill were placed upon the statute-book. We have no desire to improve the record of the Ministry. The interests of the free-trade party would be best served if they were to go to the country with all their imperfections thick upon them. But we are acting in the interests of the public, who will be unjustly treated if the Government are allowed to persist in their wrong-doing. The right honorable and learned member for South Australia spoke as a friend of the Government. The Minister sneers at the idea of the right honorable gentleman appearing in that capacity. He was their friend so long as he assisted the Government ; but immediately he considered it necessary to resist their attempt to set aside an important principle, for which he had consistently fought for many years, he was regarded in a different light. 4523 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Chapman - The honorable member could not say a good word about the right honorable gentleman a few weeks ago. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I have differed from my right honorable friend on many occasions, and so has the Right Honorable G. H. Reid. We have both fought against him upon principle ; but he will admit that neither the Right Honorable G. H. Reid nor I have condemned him personally. 4523 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I cannot recollect anything that I considered unfair. 4523 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - That is a fair admission. 4524 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Chapman - The right honorable and learned member for South Australia does not say that the statements regarding him were not untrue. 4524 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The right honorable and learned member does not respond. 4524 KEW 0 0 KINGSTON, Charles Mr Kingston - I cannot recollect, and I do not intend to try. 4524 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I differed from the right honorable and learned member in regard to the Goldring case, and I still feel strongly about it, but that does not prevent me from applauding him for standing up for his principles and endeavouring to prevent the Government from acting in a manner inimical to the best interests of the electors. This afternoon the Minister for Trade and Customs read a telegram which I despatched to Mr. Mclntyre, the Chief State Electoral Officer at Sydney, but which by some means or other was delivered to the Chief Electoral Officer for the Commonwealth. That wire was transmitted last evening because the Minister produced a document containing certain figures regarding the accuracy of which the House had no knowledge whatever. Certainly he. endeavoured to convey the impression that he was in possession of an important document which showed that recent statements by the leader of the Opposition were not correct. We all know the Minister's capacity for engineering, and, therefore, it behoves us to closely watch his movements. Accordingly I wired to Sydney to ascertain whether there was any substantial difference between the figures which were recently used by Mr. Reid and those contained in the official returns supplied by the Electoral Office. I did not receive a reply to my telegram, but evidently the Minister thought that he would score a point against me bv reading that communication. I do not regret that he has done so, because the telegram in question was a public document to a public officer. In the absence of any official acknowledgment to that wire, I sent >a further message to Mr. Mclntyre about 12.30 p.m. or 1 p.m. today. The reply which I received contained figures which are identical with those quoted by Mr. Reid a few days ago. 4524 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - Did the reply come from the Federal Electoral Office or from the State Electoral Office? . 4524 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - From the State Electoral Office. It is impossible to get any information from the Commonwealth Office. Some months ago I moved the adjournment of the House to call attention to the neglect of the Minister and his officers in carrying out the provisions of the Electoral Act. On that occasion I pointed out that, as a result of his dereliction of duty, there was a danger of thousands of electors iu New South Wales being disfranchised. To-night the honorable gentleman has quoted from a communication which is addressed to the Premier of New South Wales, and which is dated November last, notwithstanding that the Commonwealth Franchise Act was passed in June of last year, and the Electoral Act in October. To that he received a reply in January or February giving the information which he sought. 4524 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That related to the collection of the names of female voters. 4524 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - No. I should like the Minister te produce a copy of the correspondence which took place between the Commonwealth Government and the Premier of New South Wales in regard to this question. I am satisfied it would prove that the Minister has displayed an utter incapacity to deal with this important matter so far as that State is concerned. I do not desire to attribute motives, but I say that the outside public will attribute motives. Unless some better explanation is forthcoming, they will declare that he acted designedly. Although the lists were completed in January or February, and notwithstanding that the Electoral Act empowered him to appoint Commissioners to -undertake the work of dividing the States into new electorates, no steps in that direction were taken until the end of April of the present year. Indeed, in the case of New South Wales the Electoral Officer was not appointed until three or four weeks ago. Now the honorable gentleman seeks to legalize an illegal act. Under the provisions of the Electoral Act, neglect or refusal on the part of any officer to discharge any official duty, or any interference with the right of a single elector, is punishable by a fine of £200, or twelve months' imprisonment. Will the Minister assert that that provision applies only to some subordinate officer 1 I say unhesitatingly that he alone is responsible in this connexion. Had he faithfully discharged the trust committed to him there would have been no necessity for the introduction .of this Bill. Now he seeks to make it appear that although the statute which this . House deliberately passed declares that, in the event of either House disapproving of the divisions recommended by the Commissioners, the Government shall refer them back to those officers for reconsideration, it is left to his own sweet will to determine whether that course shall be pursued. Senator O'Connor, who, 1 understand, is shortly to be elevated to the High Court Bench, and who must, therefore, according to the view of the Government, be accepted as a very high authority upon legal matters, the Attorney-General, and Senator Downer are unanimous in declaring that the word " may " in section 22 of the Electoral Act is mandatory and not permissive. I am indeed surprised to find the honorable member for New England supporting the proposals of the Government. In effect, he says that the miners and farmers of Armidale ought not to have equal political power with the electors of the adjoining division of Richmond. In the former electorate there are 24,000 voters, and in the latter only 17,000 or 18,000. Between the two electorates there is merely a bridle-path, and yet the honorable member denies to his own . constituents the same voting power that is enjoyed by the electors of Richmond. Why should not the vote of the miner of Hillgrove be equal to that of the farmer in the electorate of Richmond ? I do not think that this question should be considered as a politician's question. If we divided the States in accordance with our own desires, no doubt we should endeavour so to adjust the boundaries that our own seats would remain undisturbed. If that course were to be observed the Government would be able to divide the States into electorates in such a way that it would be practically impossible for the Opposition to win any seats. Many years ago a similar effort was made in one of the states of the United States of America with the result that the Republican party secured the return of fifty members, representing 50,000 voters, while the Federalist party were able to secure the election of only eleven members, although the constituencies which they represented comprised 56,000 electors. That is what is known as gerrymandering, and my desire is that we shall be free from the suspicion of desiring to encourage anything of the kind in relation to the Commonwealth Parliament. When the people of the State in question had the true facts brought before them they spoke with no uncertain sound, and nearly all the men who were guilty of interfering with the rights and privileges of the voters never again entered into public life. The people of Australia, too, will not be slow to deal with any attempt to interfere with their rights and privileges. Is it right that some 35,000 electors' in the Lang division of New South Wales should have no greater power than is possessed by about 13,000 to: 14,000 electors in the Darling division? 4525 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - The honorable member is beating the wind. 4525 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - My honorable friend will by-and-by have an opportunity of putting this matter before his constituents. He has thrown out a challenge, and I promise him that I shall have a few words to say to his constituents in relation to this matter. I shall ask them whether they consider it is right that, according to the Minister's own figures, 30,562 electors in the Riverina and Darling divisions should have as great a voting power as is possessed by 48,578 electors in the New England and Hunter divisions. It is exceedingly difficult to obtain any reliable statistics from the Government. They ask us to approve of divisions without putting before us any official information relating to them. The Minister furnished us last night with an incomplete return, and I have experienced great difficulty in securing information which should have been supplied to us by the Government. According to the figures which I have obtained, there is a difference of nearly 10,000 in the ' number of voters in certain country constituencies in Vic-' toria as compared with other country electorates. Yet we are asked to pass a Bill! that will allow such a state of things to exist. I trust that the Government will not be successful. I have already pointed out that the Electoral Act provides a penalty for undue interference with the rights of any one voter. 4525 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - Why does not the honorable member, impeach the Ministry 1 4525 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I believe that if they succeed in passing this Bill, the public will say that they should be impeached, for. I do not think there could be a more barefaced attempt to interfere with the rights and privileges of the electors of the Commonwealth. 4525 KFK PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; IND from 1931; UAP from 1934 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr L E GROOM - The public desire to see some . business carried out by us. . 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - This Bill was introduced only on Wednesday last. 4526 L0Y 0 0 WILKINSON, James Mr Wilkinson - And it has been almost continuously discussed since then, although it contains only three clauses. 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - -But it affects the continuance of the rights and privileges of 200,000 electors. Does the honorable and learned member think that is a matter of no importance 1 When the Bill was introduced it was proposed that the motion for the second reading should "be submitted on the following day. The Opposition, however, took exception to the adoption of that course. The leader of the Opposition was so strongly against the Government proposal to revert to the existing divisions - and that feeling is entertained by honorable members of the Opposition generally - that he resigned his seat, and is now appealing to the electors of East Sydney, and through them to the electors of the Commonwealth to approve of his action. Mi-. Mauger. - The electors of the Commonwealth do not care a straw about it. 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The honorable member will be able later on to explain his action to his constituents. We asked that the motion for the second reading should not be proceeded with until Tuesday last, and the Government eventually agreed to that request, an undertaking being given that the Opposition would assist the Government in closing the debate on that day. I was not present when that undertaking was given, but I felt that as far as I could do so consistently with my duty to my constituents, I should endeavour to abide by the undertaking. As a matter of fact, the honorable and learned member for Illawarra, the honorable member for Canobolas, the honorable member for South Sydney, and other members of the Opposition, desired to speak on the motion for the second reading, but they adhered loyally to the compact, and allowed the motion to be dealt with last night. 4526 KFK PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; IND from 1931; UAP from 1934 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr L E GROOM - What has this to do with the Bill ? 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - In the first session of this Parliament honorable members sitting behind the Government debated the Defence Bill for six weeks, although they knew that it was never likely to reach the Committee stage. The Government also allowed the House to discuss the Inter-State Commission Bill and. other measures at great length, notwithstanding that they never intended to proceed with them. 4526 KFK PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; IND from 1931; UAP from 1934 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr L E GROOM - The honorable member is now endeavouring to block the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. 4526 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is this Bill more important than the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill ? 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - That is the question. The Government could easily have brought forward the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, of which honorable members on this side are more sincere supporters than are many of those opposite. I am afraid, however, that we are making a vain appeal, since it is evident that honorable members opposite came to some understanding with the Government weeks ago, an act which was nothing short of political treachery. But the time is- not far distant when they will have to face the electors, who voted for the Constitution in the belief that in any electoral law passed in accordance with its provisions the principle of equal representation, as far as each State is concerned, would be adhered to. Honorable members who support this Bill will, therefore, have to answer for a betrayal of trust. Although the people of the Commonwealth have all to submit to the same taxation, we are not giving them an equal voice in regard to the affairs of the Commonwealth . 4526 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Have the electors an equal voice in regard to the election of senators 1 4526 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The members of the Senate are chosen to represent the States as separate entities. 4526 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - But in the election of senators the representation of the States is unequal. 4526 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH -Yes. I objected to that provision. The value of each vote cast within any one of the States for a senator is, however, the same ; but my honorable friend is prepared to make a distinction between the voting for the Senate and the voting for the House of Representatives by making the votes cast for members of the House of Representatives unequal in value. As I have said, I opposed the acceptance of the Constitution, and the Prime Minister warned the electors against returning me, on the ground that I would try to infringe its provisions, whereas it is he, and the members .of his Government, who axe ready to do that. The Government have, on several occasions, tried to evade the terms of the Constitution, while we on this side have endeavoured to prevent them from doing so. It is the Government and their supporters who are trying to break the Constitution, and to create more dissatisfaction than already exists with respect to federation . There is yet time for the reports to be sent back, but the Government appear to be afraid to place it within the power of the Commissioners to reply to the statements which have been made by the Minister without adequate data. I challenge the Minister to produce any reliable official document which will support his remarks with reference to the decrease in the population of the Riverina and Barrier electorates which is said to have resulted from the drought. I have regarded it as my duty to enter the strongest protest against the action of the Government, and I hope that a number of honorable members may be induced to take to heart the words of the right honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, and to support the amendment. By following that course they will do justice to the people of the Commonwealth and at the same time prevent a violation of the Constitution. 4527 KPX New England 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - I am very reluctant to take any part in this debate, because I quite recognise that, in view of the tactics pursued by honorable members opposite, those who desire to see the Bill pass . will most readily achieve their end by maintaining silence. I feel, however, that it is necessary to make a few observations in explanation of the vote I intend to give in support of the Government. The honorable and learned member for "Werriwa, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, and the honorable member for Macquarie were most persistent in directing attention to the unsatisfactory condition of the rolls upon which the distributions were made, and yet they are now clamouring for the adoption of the reports of the Commissioners. The honorablcmember for Macquarie repeatedly declared that it would be impossible to conduct the elections fairly upon the rolls that had been compiled in New South Wales and other States. He still believes that the rolls are in an unsatisfactory condition, and yet because he thinks the interests of his party would be served he is anxious to secure the adoption of the distribution recommended by the Commissioner. The honorable and learned member for Werriwa has denounced the supporters of the Government as dishonorable, and the proposal of the Government as the basest that could possibly be submitted He stated on a former occasion that the rolls for New South Wales were deficient to the extent of 150,000 names, and yet because he believes that the distribution proposed by the Commissioner would result in a gain of one seat for the party to which he belongs, he is clamouring for its adoption. The honorable member for Kalgoorlie on the 18th of June last stated that any distribution made upon the basis of the rolls at the disposal of the Commissioners would be unjust. 4527 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr Kirwan - We desire that the reports should be sent back to the Commissioners for reconsideration. 4527 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - It was urged in support of the Government proposal for the rejection of the distributions that the divisions were unsatisfactory, because they were based upon rolls collected at a time when large areas in Victoria, New South Wales, and Queensland were, to a considerable extent, denuded of population owing to the drought. I submit that that contention was a good one. I have a very intimate knowledge of the greater part of the western district of New South Wales. For some years I represented the State electorate of Bourke, which is now included in the Federal division of Darling. Ten years ago that district had a larger population than it has to-day. Any comparison made between the number of electors on the roll in 1901 and those on the roll last collected could not be a fair one, because a drought of more or less severity has prevailed over that country for a series of years and the population has been gradually reduced. 4527 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is not drought the normal condition in that part of New South Wales? 4527 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - -The honorable member did not think so when he wanted to impose heavy rentals upon the unfortunate settlers. I desire to illustrate my point by referring to the three State electorates which embrace a large extent of the western country of New South Wales now included in the Federal electorate of Darling. I have obtained some figures from the Electoral Officer of New South Wales, who informed me that he had none that were later, and at the same time reliable. These returns show that in the Barwon electorate in 1899 there were 2,917 electors on the roll, whereas in 1902-3 the number had been reduced to 1613. In the Bourke electorate in 1699- 1900 there were 2, 42 7 electors on the roll, and in 1902-3 only 1576. In the Cobar electorate in 1899-1900 there were 3,246 electors, whereas in 1902-3 there were only 2, 4 IS. "Why was not the honorable member for Macquarie honest enough to tell us the Dosition in regard to the State electorate of Bourke ? That district contains a smaller number of male electors to-day than it did last year. 4528 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I gave the figures for the Bourke electorate. 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - Then I beg the honor able member's pardon. Take the three State electorates of the Barwon, Bourke, and Cobar. During the year 1899-1900 those districts contained 8,590 male electors, whereas in 1902-3, they contained only 5,607 voters - a decrease of 2,983 males, or more than one-third. If, in three State electorates during a period of three years, the population of adult males was reduced by one-third, is not that substantial proof that the drought did result in an exodus of population from the western divisions of New South Wales? If such a reduction in the male population took place, what must be the position in regard to the female portion of the community 1 The men fought on throughout the weary drought, submitting to all sorts of privations, but they sent their women away. Thousands of females left the interior of Australia during the prevalence of the drought for the easier conditions which obtain in our coastal cities. Seeing that one-third of the adult males in three State electorates in the western portion of New South Wales quitted their homes during the comparatively brief period of three years, must not the reduction in the number of women have been proportionately greater? 4528 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr Kirwan - Does not the same argument apply to South Australia ? 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - I take my stand absolutely on the conditions which obtained in New South Wales. I have not the presumption to argue about the effects of the drought in South Australia, of which I- have no knowledge. 4528 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - The honorable member voted on the proposals relating to the electoral divisions of South Australia, Queensland, and Victoria. 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS -I repeat that the figures I have given prove that my facts are correct. 4528 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - The honorable member, means his fancies. 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - If the honorable and learned member for Werriwa intends to insinuate that I am not stating what is absolutely true 4528 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - As far as the honorable member knows. The true position could not be explained to him. It would be a hopeless task. 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - I think that the observation of the honorable and learned member for Werriwa is beneath contempt. In this connexion I have quoted the figures which were supplied by the Chief Electoral Officer of New South Wales. The honorable and learned member for Parkes has submitted certain statistics which relate to the period between 1901 and 1903. Whilst be was speaking I ventured to ask why he did no go further back. In the western districts of New South Wales the drought has been in full blast for several years. I have a painful knowledge of the fact that the biggest losses were sustained there in 1899. Had the honorable and learned member gone back for a period of ten years, he would have discovered that there were then more adults in the western constituencies than there are to-day. 4528 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - Therefore no divisions ought ever to be made, because a drought may take place. 4528 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - The seasons in this country come in cycles, and when a cycle of good years is experienced, it is only reasonable to expect that population will be restored to its normal numbers. I repeat that the figures of the honorable and learned member for Parkes relate to the year 1901. In that year the number of adult male electors in the Barwon State electorate was 2,004, in 1902 it was only 1,613 ; but in 1903 it was 2,057. Admitting that in 1 903 there were considerably more names upon the electoral list - because, according to the statement of Mr. Mclntyre, the rolls had not then been purified - do not those figures bear out the contention of the Minister for Trade and Customs that the bush population are returning to their homes, and that consideration of this matter might with advantage be deferred for a year or two 1 In the State electorate of Bourke there were 1,756 adult males in 1901, and 1,472 in 1903. But in 1899 there were 2,427, showing a falling off of more than one-third. These figures afford ample proof that the contention of the Minister is absolutely correct. Reference has been made to the electorate of Cobar. I am aware, that in 1901 the male voters in that district totalled 1902, whereas in 1903 they numbered 2,907. But in that case the increase is easily explained. There had been a large exodus of miners from that district, but the moment sufficient rain fell to enable the great Cobar mine to resume full operations they returned. My chief objection to the proposals of the New South Wales Commissioner is based upon the fact that he has ignored, in a very marked manner, the provisions of the Act relating to community and diversity of interest as well as to means of communication. He has wiped out. the electorate of the Darling. After full consideration of the matter, I hold that it would have been very easy for him to secure a better distribution. The great mining interests of Broken Hill are in full sympathy with those of Cobar, Nymagee, and White Cliffs, and it would have been very easy for him to map out an electorate which would have embraced all those mining centres, and to have included the large pastoral and agricultural interests to the north and south in separate divisions. Under his recommendations the votes of the settlers of Bourke and Brewarrina would be completely swamped by the inclusion of Broken Hill. Similarly Riverina, which contains purely an agricultural and pastoral population, would be absorbed by the large mining population of Cobar, with which they have little in common. The proposal of the Government is that we shall revert to the existing electoral boundaries. Numerous statements have been made as to discrepancies which exist, having regard to the fact that the women of the Commonwealth are" now admitted to the franchise. Every one must admit that we are bound to bear in mind the extension of the franchise to women, and it was for that reason that I said that certain honorable members of the Opposition were simply beating the air. We have to admit the existence of discrepancies which go beyond the provisions of the Electoral Act, but in the circumstances we are compelled, for good reason, to suspend certain portions of that measure. Whilst I am strongly in favour of granting the people of the country districts a greater measure of representation than is accorded those residing in large centres of population, I am no advocate for any absurd disparity between the number of electors in town and country divisions. A proposal has been put forward that the rejected reports of the Commissioners should be returned for reconsideration. I- stated a few evenings ago, however, that time would not permit of the adoption of that course. 4529 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Minister said that there was plenty of time for the Commissioners to reconsider their schemes. 4529 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - If the honorable member made such a remark, I feel satisfied that it was merely a hasty retort which should not be unjustly vised against him. I believe that the Minister has since corrected the statement. But what are the facts ? The honorable member for Kalgoorlie, who keenly supports the proposal to return the rejected schemes to the Commissioners, recently put before us a statement showing how many weeks would be occupied in the reconsideration of the redistributions if the terms of the Electoral Act were complied with. If, for example, we sent back the New South Wales scheme of distribution, at least four weeks would be occupied by the Commissioner in reconsidering the divisions. It would then be necessary for the new maps to be publicly exhibited for a period of four weeks, after which they would be submitted to us. We should then have to deal with a motion relating to them. That would probably occupy our attention for another two weeks, the printing of the rolls would extend over a period of five weeks, the lists would have to be exhibited for a month, the work of the Revision Courts would extend over fourteen days, and the general preparations for the elections would occupy at least three weeks. It would thus take twenty-four weeks to cany out the Opposition proposal, or, in other words, it would be impossible for us to have a general election within six months from this date. 4529 JZF 0 0 FULLER, George Mr Fuller - We could shorten the process provided by the Act. 4529 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - Honorable members now admit that, having regard to the provisions of the Electoral Act, time will not permit us to return any of these schemes to |; the Commissioners. They urge, however, that it would be possible for us to amend that law. What is the proposal submitted by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn1 Under section 18 of the Electoral Act objections may be lodged with the Commissioner within thirty days after the first publication of the proposed distribution. The honorable and learned member proposes that that time shall be cut down to seven days, and that the Commissioner shall forward his report to the Minister seven days after its first publication. Section 34 of the Act requires that the lists shall be publicly exhibited for thirty days, but the honorable and learned member proposes that that time shall also be reduced to seven days. I thoroughly agree with the Minister that it is absurd to imagine that it would be possible for electors in all parts of a State to lodge objections with the Commissioner seven days after the publication of his scheme. But even if we adopted the honorable and learned member's proposal - namely, that the work which we deliberately determined should extend over a period of thirteen weeks should be performed in three -weeks - it would be impossible to have a general election before next January. I think I have shown ample grounds for the course proposed by the Government. I do not wish to occupy the attention of the Committee at undue length, and if the honorable member for Macquarie had not referred to me, I should probably not have spoken at this stage. Another proposal which is much favoured by the Opposition is designed to bring about a state of chaos, honorable members opposite believing that in that event each State would have to be polled as one electorate for the House of Representatives. That is an idea which finds favour with those democratic members who fought so desperately against the acceptance of the Constitution Bill. There is not the slightest danger of such a condition of affairs arising. If there is any conspiracy to induce the representatives of New South Wales in the Senate to bring about such a state of affairs, I am satisfied that it will fail. 4530 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable member in order in saying that there is a conspiracy to induce the Senate to do .certain things. I resent the insinuation. 4530 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I did not hear the honorable member make use of the words referred to. 4530 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - All this is in keeping with the proceedings of the Opposition. It seems to me that there is no sincerity shown by them in dealing with this measure. The whole thing is a piece of organized political hypocrisy. 4530 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the honorable member to withdraw that expression. 4530 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - If the word "hypocrisy" is objected tol will withdraw it. I regret that the Federal Parliament should have degenerated into a kind of comedy house, but for that fact I am not responsible. In order to illustrate my view of the attitude taken up by the Opposition, I desire to mention that I recently selected twelve State electorates in New South Wales in which, according to the rolls of 1898, there were 38,254 voters, while in twelve others there were only 21,948. That is the state of affairs which was allowed to exist in 1898, notwithstanding that the leader of the Opposition in this House, the honorable member for Macquarie, and the honorable member for Parramatta, were members of one of the strongest Governments which ever existed in that State, and were masters of the situation. This condition of affairs was allowed to con- 1 tinue by the Government of which the honorable member for Parramatta, who is now burning with indignation, at what he describes as an outrage upon the democracy of Australia, was a member. That Government could have introduced a Bill to remedy the unsatisfactory position, but it did not do so. 4530 KYR 0 0 KIRWAN, John Mr Kirwan - That is no justification for the action taken by this Government. 4530 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - It is some justification for my suggestion that there is at the bottom of this opposition to the Government proposal, something which, if I were permitted to do so, I should describe as a piece of political hypocrisy. 4530 KU9 South Australia FT 0 0 SOLOMON, Vaiben Mr V L SOLOMON - Perhaps a little variety will be lent to the proceedings if some honorable member who is not closely interested in the New South Wales divisions offers a few observations in regard to this Bill. I am sure that no one could accuse either the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, or myself of having any interest in the question now before the House, other than that which we all must have in seeing that the provisions of the Constitution, and of our own legislation, are fairly and properly carried out. The difficulty which has been raised by the Government, in regard to sending back of the proposed distributions to the Commissioners, seems to be met by the amendment of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. Although it is said that the time is too short for the preparation of new distributions, I would point out that the alterations to be made cannot be very much, because so few objections have been lodged by the electors. How many objections have been lodged in the State of New South Wales, with its population of. 1,300,000, or in Victoria, or in Queensland 1 The Government cannot refuse to give careful" consideration to the protest which has been raised by most of the representatives of those States against this proposal to retain the old divisions. The right honorable member for South Australia this afternoon gave us a vigorous and straightforward speech, which reminded me of his best days, when he was fighting the cause of democracy in the South Australian Parliament. 4531 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - It is most refreshing to hear the honorable member say this. 4531 KU9 FT 0 0 SOLOMON, Vaiben Mr V L SOLOMON - It may not be so in Victoria, but in South Australia we learned to fight our political battles without detracting from each other's honesty or private character, and were able to be friends outside the House. I hope that in this respect the South Australian Parliament will be an object lesson to this Parliament. 'The right honorable member is to-night advocating a policy which he has always supported. The question for the Government to consider appears to me to be whether it is wise, fair, or proper, seeing that already so much friction has been caused by Federal legislation, to send back the representatives of New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria to constituents who are dissatisfied with the proposal to retain the old divisions. Personally, I should like to see the States subdivided into not more than four or six divisions, because I hold that the larger the electoral districts, the more independent and intelligent is the representation secured. Small one-member divisions are not conducive to the return of men able to give proper consideration to those national questions with which Australia is now so greatly concerned. 4531 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I call attention to the state of the Committee. [Quorum formed.] Mr.V.L. SOLOMON.- The only excuse for the action of the Government would be that a large number of objections to the Commissioners' distributions had been lodged by electors, but that has not happened. The Constitution and the Electoral Act both recognise the principle of one adult one vote, and provide for as equal a representation as it is possible to get, considering the difference between the town and country divisions. But if the figures of the honorable member for Macquarie are correct - and they have not been refuted - the Government should at once set about securing fresh distributions from the Commissioners. We have heard a great deal about the alteration of boundaries rendered necessary because of the movement of population to the coast, owing to a series of dry seasons, but if we are always going to take into account the movements of a few hundred or a few thousand electors, we shall have to send caravans round the country to collect the votes of the people. There are, no doubt, considerable discrepancies in the South Australian divisions, because the interests and population of places like Port Darwin and Alice Springs are very different from those of the city of Adelaide; but the representatives of the State have been satisfied to accept the distribution of the Commissioner, and as it has not been proved that the Commissioners for New South Wales, Victoria, or Queensland were either incapable or dishonest, or did not make the best and most equitable distributions possible on the facts presented to them, why should not their proposals be accepted ? I did not rise with a view to occupy time unfairly, but, as a representative of a State which has been dealt with according to the recommendations of the Electoral Commissioner, to claim that the same consideration should be extended to others. 4531 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - The attitude assumed by the honorable member, and other representatives of South Australia, affords evidence that this discussion is not being pursued upon party lines: The distribution of the State of South Australia was carried out by the late Commissioner upon almost mathematically exact lines. He obeyed the law, and the representatives of that State, be it said to their honour, did not raise any objections. In Tasmania,, also, the Commissioner obeyed the law and recognised the Constitution, and his recommendations were accepted without serious question. It may be assumed that the electors of Queensland accepted the distribution made by the Commissioner for the State, because only two objections were raised. It cannot be said for one moment that Queensland is deficient in political organizations, because the Labour Party claim that they are more powerfully organized in that State than elsewhere. The labour organizations, which are supposed to jealously protect the interests of the electors, and to safeguard the principle of one man one vote, and one vote one value, did not urge one objection, but, nevertheless, most of the representatives of that State supported the Government in rejecting the proposed distribution. In New South Wales the Commissioner, Mr. Houston, whose ability and integrity are beyond cavil, received only thirty-five objections to his proposals, and, after giving them the fullest consideration, submitted his report. Some of the representatives of that State opposed the distribution, whilst others contended that it was a fair one and should be adopted. In Victoria the distribution of the Commissioner was objected to for reasons similar to those urged against the New South Wales distribution. We are now asking that the distributions which have been rejected shall be sent back to the Commissioners, as. the Electoral Act requires. The difficulty raised on the score of want of time is met by the amendment proposed by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. All we ask is that the political grip upon the question of the distribution of the electorates may be relaxed, and that the reports may be sent back to the Commissioners, who represent the public. The right honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, made a powerful appeal to' honorable members not to besmirch the political life of the Commonwealth, or to lay Parliament open to the suggestion that its members threw principle to the winds in order to suit their own personal convenience. The right honorable gentleman is no less attached to the cause of protection than when he was a member of the Ministry, and although he knows that in all probability the distribution proposed for New South Wales will probably result in gain to the free-trade cause, he is prepared for the sake of his own political honour, and for the honour of the House, and of the Commonwealth, to make that sacrifice. He is true to the principle of one vote one value, of which he has been a consistent advocate. It is absurd to raise the cry of " Town versus Country" in connexion with this matter. We know that so far as Federal legislation is concerned, the residents of the city and the residents of the country are placed on an equal footing. We do not deal with land or mining legislation, but with matters which affect all the voters of the Commonwealth alike. If honorable members are as much concerned as they profess to be, for the proper representation of the country voters, how can they approve of a distribution under which one farmer in the Darling division will be permitted to exercise the same voting power as two farmers in the Richmond electorate ? Since the last distribution, the conditions in the electorates have- been entirely altered, owing to the extension of the franchise, and a redistribution of seats is necessary, in order to secure to women the equal voting power to which they are entitled under the Constitution, and which is conferred upon them by the Electoral Act. Under existing conditions the women in one portion of the State are not granted voting power equal to that enjoyed by female voters in other portions. The arguments, used against the proposed distributions have been utterly unworthy of a national Parliament. If we desire to retain the respect of the public, we should not allow unworthy personal considerations to sway us, but should remit the whole question to the unbiased decision of the Commissioners. The Minister has urged that there is not sufficient time to permit of the reports being sent back to the Commissioners. Who is to blame for that? For five weeks after the Electoral Act was passed, the Minister allowed matters to remain in abeyance There is no justification for the attitude assumed by the Minister, and we now ask him and his supporters to forbear from besmirching the reputation of this Parliament by exercising the power of a brutal majority. 4532 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - I rise to a point of order. I desire your ruling, Mr. Chairman, as to whether the honorable member is in order in stigmatizing the majority of this House as brutal. 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, I submit that the term " brutal" is used to describe force exercised in a physical, instead of an intellectual, way. TheACTINGCHAIRMAN(Mr. Salmon). - I must ask the honorable member to withdraw the adjective " brutal." 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - I intend to dissent from your ruling, Mr. Chairman, because I have never heard the word " brutal" characterized as unparliamentary. The ACTING CHAIRMAN.- I must ask the honorable member to submit his dissent in writing. 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - I shall do so. In the House : The ACTING CHAIRMAN. - Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to report that during the debate in Committee the honorable member for Dalley described a party in this House as a " brutal majority." Attention was drawn to the expression, and thereupon I desired him to withdraw it. He refused to do so, and has handed in the following dissent : - " I dissent from the ruling of the Acting Chairman of Committees that the words 'brutal majority' are out of order." 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - The Acting Chairman of Committees has put the matter fairly well, but with this omission : that when I was called to order I declared that the term " brutal " was used by me as an adjective, and was given a physical application. I did not reflect on the character of any honorable member. I merely used an expressive phrase to convey in a mild manner my feelings upon this subject. I used the word in a physical sense, and it had no intellectual application whatever. 4533 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - There can be no doubt that under the standing orders the Acting Chairman of Committees was perfectly entitled, upon attention being called to the use of the words, to require their withdrawal. He has referred the matter to me, and I would ask the honorable member, who always yields obedience to the rules of the House, to withdraw the expression. 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - I do not thoroughly understand your decision, sir. I desire a definite ruling to be given for our future guidance. 4533 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Words which are in themselves an imputation of improper motives must be withdrawn even though objection be not taken to them. Other words which are considered by any honorable member to be a reflection upon him or upon any section of the House must be withdrawn upon attention being called to them, although they might not otherwise be considered offensive. 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I regret very much that the Acting Chairman of Committees did not accept my explanation, and, in deference to your ruling, sir, I withdraw the expression. In Committee : 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - The honorable member for Melbourne Ports, who is so keen upon the observance of the rules of the House, interjected a little time ago that "the electors did not worry about this matter." Mr. Mauger. - I did not say that. 4533 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - The honorable member declared that the electors did not "bother" about it. Am I to understand that that phrase is indicative of his standard of political morality ? There are too many politicians in our States Parliaments who take a determined stand upon any matter only " when the electors bother about it." But the electors of the Commonwealth expect their representatives in this House to act as the custodians of their rights and privileges as embodied in the Constitution and in the. Electoral Act. My desire is to focus public attention upon the attempt which is being made by the Ministry to destroy the principle of one man one vote and one vote one value. It is only thirteen years since that principle was galvanized into life and power upon the mainland of Australia by the late Sir George Grey. He it was who first gave power and influence to the Labour Party in New South Wales. Now we are fighting for the maintenance of that principle. But apparently the fisherman of the Gulf of Carpentaria, the gold miner of Kalgoorlie, the boot manufacturer of Melbourne, and the shipwright of New South Wales are not to have an equal value attached to their votes. Let honorable members frankly avow that they are fighting for their own seats. 4533 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - The honorable member is wasting time. 4533 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable member for Melbourne Ports justified in making that accusation across the Chamber? 4533 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - I withdraw it. 4534 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - This Admirable Crichton, this authority upon matters of this character, has declared that I am wasting time. If a protectionist seat were in the balance, I venture to say that he would be fighting hard. 4534 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - I have never " stonewalled." 4534 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - In dealing with a matter of this kind I cannot be accused of " stonewalling." Of course it may be urged that we are endeavouring to block the consideration of the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. Similarly it may be said that we wish to postpone the selection of the Federal capital site. I offer these remarks in the nature of a final protest. I am aware that the other side possess the necessary numbers. At the same time I wish the public of Australia to know that the Ministry, which should have preserved the Constitution inviolate, have been the very first to break it. I cannot understand how it is that the Prime Minister, who is such a stickler for the Constitution, can allow this proposal to be submitted. I hold that all the electors of the Commonwealth should be placed upon an equal footing. If that be done we are prepared to accept the challenge which has been thrown down by honorable members opposite. All we ask is that every vote shall be counted. Whether Brown votes in the town or country his vote will count, and we desire that every man, no matter where he happens to be, shall have an opportunity to exercise his right. If we allow this Bill to pass, our action in extending the franchise to women will have been nothing more than a sham. The women of Australia are to be found, for the most part, in the densely-populated centres, and it is only natural that they should remain there. The statistics show that the number of females will always be greater in the towns than it is in the country, and now that we have 3xtended the franchise to women we should give them every facility to exercise it. I am not speaking upon party lines. We are not fighting to secure another free-trade seat in New South Wales, because an additional seat for a protectionist would be provided in Victoria, so that the position would be equalized. But the public will unmistakably come to the conclusion that some honorable members are exercising their powers, not in the interests of the public, but with a view to their own welfare. When we find that the schemes for the distribution of Tasmania and South Australia have been accepted, and that the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, is boldly joining in our opposition to the Government proposal,, no one can say that our action is actuated by party considerations. How is it that the acknowledged leader of the protectionist party in Australia is willing to support the suggestion of the Opposition, that the rejected schemes should be returned to the Commissioners for reconsideration ? He declares that he is led to do so because his attachment to the democratic principle of one vote one value is even greater than is his admiration for the policy of protection. More honour to him for the stand he has taken, and more dishonour to* the representatives of Victoria, and others, who declined to allow the schemes of distribution for New South Wales and Victoria, to be returned to the Commissioner. I am not claiming that the divisions were all that could be desired. I am simply urging that both schemes should be returned to the Commissioners for reconsideration. If the Government are able to show that the Commissioners have not recognised the principle of community of interest in distributing the States into electoral divisions, those officers will have to remodel their schemes, while, on the other hand, if it is shown that their contentions are not correct we will have to abide by the result. It is not the position of the Ministry, but rather the provisions of the Electoral Act and of the Constitution, which are at stake. Rather than that we should have politicians in the first Federal Parliament plotting out their own divisions, it would be preferable to have each State polled as one electorate with all its great disadvantages. The Minister has said that there is time for the Commissioners to reconsider these schemes, and I trust that he will accept the amendment. If he is dissatisfied with Mr. Houston, the Commissioner for New South Wales, let him appoint another officer, but I urge him for the sake of the reputation of the democratic party to which be is attached, to show that he objects to Members, of Parliament framing their own divisions. 1 Our desire is that the principle of one man one vote, and one vote one value, shall be observed, and that Parliament shall not be allowed to carry out work of this kind. 4535 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I rise for the purpose of making a few observations on the change which this question has undergone, as the result of the amendment submitted by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. Before doing so, however, I desire to make one or two remarks in reference to the speech delivered by the honorable member for New England. The honorable member hurled epithets all round the Chamber with great indiscrimination and generally comported himself in a way that does not usually characterize him. He made some astounding statements. I do not know whether he had received notice of the intention of the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, to move this amendment, but he appeared to be primed with statistics obtained from the Electoral Officer for New South Wales. I venture to say, however, that all his figures go for naught when compared with a few of the outstanding features of the case. He deplored with emphasis the condition of the interior of New South Wales ; but he must admit that drought is the normal condition of a very large portion of that State. If that be the normal condition of certain parts of New South Wales, should it not be provided for in any electoral arrangements that we make? The honorable member had much to say about Bourke, which appears at present to be the storm centre of that desert country. Everyone knows and deplores the condition of that district, and hopes that 'it may soon improve. But when singling out Bourke as an example of the drought-striken portions of New South Wales, the honorable member might have dealt with the matter a little more fairly. I have here a table of returns, prepared by Mr. Coghlan, in which Bourke is joined with the whole of the drought-stricken, parts of the western districts of New South Wales. The return comprises Alma, Barwon, Bourke, Broken Hill, Cobar, Coonamble, Deniliquin, Hay, The Lachlan, The Murray, Sturt, Wentworth, and Wilcannia. I think it will be admitted that it practically embraces nearly the whole of the drought-stricken country in the western part of New South Wales at the present moment, but if the honorable member examines the return relating to these districts he will find, singularly enough, that there has been no such exodus from them as has been alleged by the Minister, and as has been so earnestly urged by himself. He will find that a wonderful uniformity is shown - that while in 1893 the proportion of the population in these places to the total population of New South Wales was 10-15 per cent., this year it is 9-27 percent. The honorable member will therefore see that, taking the ten years' period, the change which has occurred in the population of these districts is not anything like as great as he would have us believe. 4535 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - The recent increase is due to mining enterprise in certain isolated places. 4535 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is it due, for example, to mining enterprise that in Deniliquin there are to-day 2,545. inhabitants, whereas in 1893 there were 2,147 ? I was always under the impression that Deniliquin was the centre of a pastoral country, and that there was very little mining carried on in that district. The honorable member cannot account for the increase of population in that drought stricken centre by the plea that it is due to mining enterprise. I could not help thinking, while the honorable member was speaking of Cobar and Bourke, that his arguments as to want of community of interest in various places completely answered themselves. What community of interest is there between the mining community of Cobar and the pastoralists of Bourke t The honorable member desires, however, that the existing state of affairs shall be preserved. Every case in which it is alleged that the Commissioner's scheme shows a want of regard for community of interest is more than matched by the anomalies associated with the existing divisions. Under the present distribution, the miners of Cobar are associated with the pastoralists of Bourke, and the miners of Illawarra with the farmers of that electorate. It -would be easy to multiply instances of this kind, and, as Mr. Houston properly points out, it is impossible to conserve community of interest over the widely extended areas which these electoral divisions comprise. He states that he has done his best to observe the provision of the Electoral Act with regard to community of interest, but that it is impossible to absolutely comply with it in every case. It is useless, therefore, for honorable members to complain that the Commissioner's scheme does not provide for community of interest. The honorable member for New England asserts that the rolls have been very badly compiled - that many people have been disfranchised - and he quotes the honorable member for Macquarie and the honorable and learned member for Werriwa in support of his contention. But has the honorable gentleman read the Age lately ? If not, he ought to do so, because he is unquestionably guided by it, and should pay particular attention to any statement published by that journal. I would invite his attention to the following paragraph which appeared in yesterday's issue : - The widespread agitation which originated in protests made in these columns against the incompleteness of the Federal electoral roll for the State of Victoria, as first compiled by the police, has been justified. Mr. D. Miller, Secretary to the Home Department, stated yesterday that over 8,000 additional names had been obtained by the officers of the Electoral Office through various channels since the police lists had been handed in. He regards this achievement as a triumph which is unparalleled in any British community. It meant, he said, that there was now only a difference of 19,000 between the Federal roll and the census returns. Seeing that 19,000 is a very low estimate for the floating population on census day of a State like Victoria, it may be taken that the Federal roll is now as nearly complete as it is ever likely to be. That statement does not show that the rolls are in the shocking condition in which the Minister has alleged that they are. It proves that we have been justified in our criticism, but that the anomalies to which we have called attention have been rectified, the Secretary of the Department says that he regards it as a triumph unparalleled in the civilized world that they have been able to compile in Victoria a more complete roll than exists anywhere else. The honorable member for New England knows that all the reasons which he has . urged in support j jf the Bill are, with one exception, mere padding. He tells us, however, that he loes not believe that Hodge should have the same voting power as his master. 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - I did not say that. 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member said something to that effect. He stated that he does not believe that a semi-lunatic should have the same voting power is the best and wisest of mankind. 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - Nor do I believe that he should. 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I say that the joorer a man is- 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - I said nothing about poor nen ; I spoke of half-witted men. 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - What is the difference in the honorable member's argument ? -He put the humblest man and the half-witted man together in his speech. 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - Does the honorable member contend that there is no difference between a half-witted man and a poor man t 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Have any half-witted men the right to vote? 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - Yes, plenty of them. 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member stated that he did not think that all men should be equal, at the ballot-box. But, in my opinion, the more unfortunate a. man's position, the more he needs the protection of Parliament. 4536 KPX PROT 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr SAWERS - I ask the honorable member to withdraw the statement that I said anything about poor men. The poorest may be the wisest man. 4536 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Certainly, I withdraw the statement : but if the honorable member's comparison had any point, when . he spoke of half-witted persons, and of the wisest and best of mankind, he was referring to electors. Our theory is, and it has been accepted all over Australia, and adopted in the Constitution, that no matter what a man's condition in life, whether he be ignorant, or learned, cultured, and wise, he has the same right to vote as is possessed by every other elector. What the honorable member actually said was this- - I am astounded to think that many honorable members, for whose good sense in relation to other matters I have the greatest respect, have publicly stated, as the leader of the Opposition said, I believe, a few nights' ago, that the humblest man in this country, however poor his intellect may be, has an equal political right, and. - as I understood him to say - should have a voting power equal to that possessed by the wisest and best man in Australia. The leader of the Opposition thinks that a half-witted man is. as much entitled to political power as is the greatest philosopher. I do not congratulate him upon such a view, and although this is a democratic country I shall never lose a vote by hiding my opinions in regard to this question. I have dared to express them again and again. He repeated that statement the other night, and is, on his own showing, a believer in attaching qualifications to the exercise of the franchise. That is a good Tory doctrine, and I give the honorable member credit for having the courage to express his opinions. But, unfortunately for his views, the law places all electors on the same footing. 4536 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - If the honorable member had read further he would have found that I accept the law as it stands.' 4537 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - We on this side of the Chamber wish to see the provisions of the law carried into effect ; but the honorable member . is voting to have the Electoral Act set aside, so that the present divisions may be retained in four of the States. 4537 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - The honorable member left the State rolls in a fine mess. 4537 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That sort of retort finds a great deal of favour with the honorable member and others when they are unable to answer our arguments. He should know, because it has been set forth in the public prints, which are accessible to him, that the gentleman to whom was intrusted the revision of the New South Wales rolls wrote to the head of the Government then in power, pointing out the impossibility of carrying the revision into effect. Parliament had passed a law which, rightly or wrongly, provided that the new electoral machinery should not operate until the next general election. There is noaualogy between the state of affairs at that time and the conditions with which we are now dealing. The Minister had charge of electoral matters in New South Wales, and the party with which he has always been identified has been four years in office. In spite of the drought and all the changes of population, and the alleged rotten condition of affairs at the time we left office, they have not lifted a finger to bring about an improvement. Therefore, the Minister should address his remonstrances to his own party in the State, rather than taunt us with a condition of affairs which we are and were absolutely powerless to alter. It would have been necessary to introduce a new Electoral Bill, and that was impossible under the conditions. 4537 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - There was a provision in the law which would have met the case without the introduction of a new- Bill. 4537 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No, there was not. The Minister does not understand the position so well as does Mr. Mclntyre. He does not look into these matters as closely as do the Electoral Officers, and I therefore attach much more importance to their reports than to his opinions. Much has been said regarding the severe depression caused by the drought, and I would ask whether the distribution of New South Wales proposed by the Commissioner would have inflicted any injury upon the people of the interior? Would it have imposed any political disabilities upon them ? Would it have deprived them of their votes? Will the retention. of the existing divisions enable them to grapple* more effectively with the difficult problems with which they are brought face to face ? What harm could come to them if the provisions of the Electoral Act were carried out and they were placed upon an equality with voters in other parts of the State. The only relief required by the drought- stricken settlers was absolutely refused by a majority of members in this Chamber.- The honorable member for New England refused to extend that relief. 4537 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - That is very unkind, because I supported every' proposal for the suspension of the fodder duties. 4537 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I have a distinct recollection that the honorable member supported the Government against the proposal to afford relief to the drought-stricken settlers of New South Wales and Queensland. 4537 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - That is untrue. 4537 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The relief which these people want is not two and a-half times the voting power enjoyed by people' in other parts of Australia. At the time when their sheep were dying by thousands and their cattle were being ruined by drought, they did not ask for relief of that kind. The only practical relief that would have been of any use to them was cheap fodder to keep their stock alive. But we in this Parliament, in our great sympathy for them, were so alive to their necessities as to ring half-a-million of money out of them in one year. This argument, in my opinion, takes from the Government and their supporters the last shred of defence which they can reasonably offer for the perpetuation of the old unsound, revolting, and out-of-date condition of affairs. But it appears that our argumentation is as useless now as it has been throughout the debate. We are making a fight for a great principle. Even though honorable members will not heed what we are saying, we must still raise our voices in protest. I say with all the earnestness and sincerity of which I am capable that if the Government are wise they will still, while there is time, resolve to send these proposed electorates back for reconsideration. The official appurtenances are ready to hand for the work. They will be wise even now in causing a scheme to be brought forward which -will do justice to the whole of the people of Australia. 4538 JZF Illawarra 0 0 FULLER, George Mr FULLER - I refrained from speaking on the second reading of the Bill last night ; but I do not wish it to pass without entering a protest in regard to what I think is a piece of gross political interference with the' rights and privileges of hundreds of thousands of the men and women of Australia on the part of the Government and those who are supporting them. I should like to say in regard to the honorable member for New England, that the honorable member for Parramatta did him a slight injustice in reference to his action over the fodder duties. When I moved the adjournment of the House, and on other occasions in connexion with that matter, the honorable member for New England supported me, and referred strongly to the attitude of the Government. It is only fair to the honorable member that I should mention that. We are told to-night that the action of the Opposition upon this Bill is a comedy. As far as my humble judgment will allow me to fofm an opinion, it is the most serious matter which has come before, this Parliament. I cannot conceive of anything which is of more importance to the people of Australia than that in the first Parliament of this Commonwealth, after passing an Electoral Act in which we remedied the inequalities which existed under the State laws, we should deliberately, and behind that Act, and behind the Constitution, go back to the old condition of affairs. It is to be remarked that in each of the States where the personal element arose in connexion with the redistribution of seats, the reports sent in by the Commissioners appointed by the Government have been deliberately rejected. That is a direct condemnation of the Commissioners appointed by the Government themselves. Those reports are being rejected more for party and personal reasons than in the interests of the people of the Commonwealth. Strange to say, in the case of New South Wales the members affected are all on the Government side of the House. If their seats had not been affected by the redistribution scheme submitted by Mr. Commissioner Houston, we should never have heard of this matter. But because the seat of one supporter of the Government was obliterated altogether and the electorates of others were materially affected, the Minister in charge of this Bill, for personal and party reasons, asks the House to reject the proposed divisions. So far from its being a comedy to fight as we have been doing, in order that 200,000 electors of the Commonwealth should have the rights to which they are entitled under the Constitution, it is a protest against a tragedy. For the first time in most of the States the women are now admitted to the franchise equally with men. But what has been done during the last few evenings will deliberately take away from the women of Australia, for whom the honorable gentleman in charge of this Bill has always professed to be a champion, a large portion of the value of the vote which has been conferred upon them. We are told that it is necessary on account of the circumstances of the times to suspend the electoral law. The Government have, not always been so anxious to suspend the law in connexion with matters vitally affecting the people of Australia. On the occasion when I asked them to do so, in order to assist the people who were struggling in New South Wales and Queensland against the drought, which is now being made the ' excuse for the action of the Government, I was told the law could not be suspended. The action of the Ministry is for purely party purposes. It is well known that, in New South Wales, the Commissioner appointed is one of the ablest men in Australia - perhaps the ablest that could be found in that State for this purpose, as the Ministry recognised when they selected him. The Ministry now make the drought the excuse for the measure which they ask the House to pass ; and there have been attempts made in the course of this discussion to raise the old cry which we heard years ago in the States Parliaments, of town versus country. This, however, is no question of town versus country, in New South Wales at any rate, because if we put country electorates in that State side by side, we find that in one it requires two, or nearly three, voters to equal the influence exercised by one voter in the adjoining electorate. The electors of the Darling constituency number some 12,000 odd, whereas in the constituency which I represent there are 23,160. The honorable member for New England and the honorable member for Gippsland put forward the plea that because people in the towns live on the people in the country, therefore the producers ought to have more voting power than have town electors. That may be all right so far as State politics and affairs are concerned, but we are now in the broad arena of Australian politics, and dealing, from a national point of view, with matters affecting the whole life of the people of the Commonwealth. We have adopted, in our electoral legislation, the principle of one man one vote and one vote one value, but. now we find the Ministry deliberately asking us to suspend legislation passed in pursuance of the Constitution. I object now, as I always have objected, to the proposal of the Government. I object to the .Bill because it is opposed to the principle on which the Convention of the ablest men in Australia was elected to frame the Commonwealth Constitution. The proposal of the Government is also opposed to the principle on which the Senate is elected. The Bill now before us practically repeals the Electoral Act. People in New South Wales and in other parts of the country have for years and years been fighting for the cause of democracy, and the first plank in the Labour Party's platform in the mother State is one man one vote. There are representatives in this Chamber from New South Wales who have assisted the movement in favour of one man one vote since its initiation, and I ask them how they can honestly tell the miners and workmen of that State that the proposal of the Government gives them an equal share in parliamentary representation ? In Illawarra there is one of the biggest . unions of miners to be found in New South Wales. Why. should one miner of Cobar and other districts of New South Wales be equal in voting power to two miners in the constituency of Illawarra ; and why should one farmer in a western constituency be equal to two farmers in the Illawarra electorate ? My own belief is that the Cobar miners, to whom concessions are given by the Bill, will be the very first to resent the action of the Ministry. These Cobar miners will stand side by side with their brethren in fighting ' for that great principle of democracy which is the basic principle of the Constitution. They will regard, it as an absolute insult when they find what the proposal of the Ministry means - that one vote in their district is equal to two votes in Illawarra or Newcastle. The proposal of the Ministry is absolutely opposed to principles which are Very dear to the miners and working men of New South Wales ; and although I have never posed as an advocate of advanced democracy, I, on this occasion, must raise my voice on behalf of the men and women of the Commonwealth. They are not receiving justice at the hands of the Government. 4539 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - After the discussion we 'have had, I expected some defence of the position taken up by the Government. If we allow the clause to stand as at present drafted, it is perfectly clear that it might not be felt incumbent on the next Parliament to make any alteration in the law. If the amendment moved by the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn, is not accepted, I shall move that the words " until both Houses of the Parliament have passed a resolution approving of a proposed distribution of the State into divisions," be omitted, with a view to inserting "for the forthcoming parliamentary elections." Perhaps a better way still would be to have a provision that the Bill shall remain in force until some date of next year after the elections have been held ; because then it will be incumbent on the new Parliament, although elected under this Bill, to immediately have the electorates redistributed. Nobody has yet defended the attitude which the Government have taken up ; and it is pleasing to observe that the supporters of the Government are ashamed of that attitude, and prefer to say nothing regarding it, in the hope that no attention will be drawn to the matter. It is remarkable that the Minister for Home Affairs, who ought to take charge of and explain the provisions of the Bill, has not done so. It was the duty of that Minister to explain very fully what has been done, and what he intends to do. A fortnight ago we had the statement from his predecessor that if the distributions were sent back to the Commissioners, they could still be dealt with, and the present Minister for Home Affairs is guilty of a grave dereliction of duty in not expressing his opinion on that matter. If he were to stand up and say that in his opinion the electorates could not be redistributed within a certain time, it might have quite an appreciable effect on the votes of honorable members. Are we not bound to infer from his silence that there is still time left to send back the reports? Clause 2 of this Bill is in absolute defiance of sections 15 and 16 of the Electoral Act. Has any attempt been made to ascertain the quota? No. If the State divisions are adopted in New South Wales, no less than fifteen electorates will absolutely contravene the provisions of the Electoral Act. Is it right that Ministers should set up as law-breakers ? Ought they not to be the very first to observe the law and to insist that it should be carried out t How can they expect that the other- provisions of the Electoral Act will be observed unless in this Bill we repeal sections 15 and .16 ? When we were dealing with the case of Victoria we found that the Commissioner proposed that country districts should send in one and a quarter more members than (.hey ought to do. In fact, he proposed that one country electorate should contain as many as 10,000 electors less than any other country electorate. In other words, he proposed that five country people in one electorate should have the same voting power as four country people in another electorate.' In New South Wales, if we retain the present divisions, two and a half electors in one division will have the same voting power as one elector in another division. Take, for instance, the Darling electorate, which is represented by a member of the Labour Party who supports the Government. He is absolutely ignoring the cardinal principle of the labour platform. How can he go back to his constituents and say that they are entitled to return one member, when another electorate composed of 32,000 miners is allowed to return only one member? Although the Newcastle electorate contains about 26,000 electors, still we find its member assenting to a provision which says that only 12,000 persons in another electorate are to have the same voting power. I could quite understand that idea being promulgated by the honorable member for Gippsland, who believes that a tree has as much intelligence as a man, and that if 'a man lives in the city it destroys his interest in the country. Although he was ready to make an exception in his own favour, still he made it as clear as he could that, in his opinion, residence in the city disqualifies a man to fairly represent a country electorate. In that case I suppose when we get our " bush capital " every one of us who lives in the country will not be entitled to represent a city electorate. Was ever a more wild opinion promulgated? It reminded me of the old days in England when a man was required to live in a particular locality. At one time a statute was passed to compel a member, to live in his electorate. If the view of the honorable member for Gippsland were to prevail, a provision of that kind would have to be enacted here. One could have understood his position if he had been arguing as a member of the State Parliament, because in a State the members have to look after local interests and wants; in fact, in some cases, to- be mere local agents. When we came to deal with the Federal electorates we hoped that we should be in an entirely different position. South Australia and Tasmania were not divided for the last Federal elections. In those cases each elector had an equal vote whether he resided in the city or in the country. I am. bound to say that the divisions proposed by the Commissioners appointed to divide those States have been adopted ; but if one or two honorable members had chosen to disagree with them, I suppose they would have been rejected. Does not the whole proceeding in connexion with this matter show how unfit Parliament is to deal with it t That was pointed out when' the Commonwealth Electoral Bill was going through. It was suggested that honorable members would be likely to give too much consideration to their individual interests, and for that reason Commissioners were appointed to divide the States. When the Bill was first introduced the proposal made was that there should be three Commissioners for each State, but on the plea of economy the number was reduced to one. Advantage is now taken of that to suggest that the work has not been properly done. With whom does the fault lie ? I say that it rests with the present Minister for Trade and Customs. What do the Government intend to do with the Commissioners whom they appointed and whose divisions they have rejected ? They do not contend that they have done wrong, nor do they propose to dispense with their services, and it is, therefore, most extraordinary that they should not be prepared to accept their work. There might be some reason for suggesting a special arrangement in the case of Queensland, seeing that the first division proposed was withdrawn, and another was substituted. Although the present Minister for Trade and Customs made an attack upon the Queensland Commissioner, the honorable gentleman has given no proof * of the charges he made. He has not failed* to prove his charges because he lacked the desire to do so. One can only suggest that, as the honorable gentleman was unable to prove his charges, he should express his regret for the remarks he made. We have heard much from the honorable gentleman concerning his zeal on behalf of the country electors ; but he overlooks the fact that in some of the country electorates of New South Wales he is giving the same right to three electors that he gives to four in others. In the electorate of Bland three miners at Temora or Wyalong have but the same voting power as two at Cobar, or at the Barrier. I am unable to understand how the honorable member for Bland can support that. It may be that the honorable member, knowing his own electorate, believes* in his secret heart, that the miners of Temora and Wyalong possess only two-thirds of the intelligence of miners resident elsewhere in Australia. I do not think the honorable member is prepared to give expression to that opinion from the platform in his electorate. If such considerations as - have been suggested are to rule honorable members in dealing with a matter of this kind, what becomes of the principle of equal voting power? It has become absolutely a dead letter. The protest of honorable, members on this side, so far as New South Wales is concerned, is that, although there is a majority of honorable members representing that State in favour of the division proposed, and the people of New South Wales are on the whole completely satisfied with the manner in which Mr. Houston has carried out his work, the Minister throws the whole of that work aside. I ask what are the reasons which actuate the honorable gentleman in doing so ? They have not been given to the Committee. The effects of the drought cannot have weighed with the honorable gentleman in the coarse which he is pursuing, because ho is a member of a Ministry that drew from these very drought-stricken districts a sum of over £500,000 in customs duties alone. That probably had the effect of wringing from the people in the electorates which the honorable gentleman now professes to be so anxious about at least three times that amount, because the very fact that the duties upon fodder were so high 4541 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the honorable member not to discuss the Tariff. 4541 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I shall only repeat that sections 15 and 16 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act ought to be repealed at once. If we accept the clause before the Committee as it stands, we shall be departing from the provisions of those sections without having repealed them. Even at this stage I urge the Minister to adopt the suggestion which has been made, and send the divisions back to the Commissioners for reconsideration. Question - That clause 2 be agreed to - put. The Committee, divided. 30 Barton, Sir E. Batchelor, E. L. Bonython, Sir J. L. Chapman, A. Cook, J. H. Forrest, Sir J. Fowler, J. M. Fysh, Sir P. O. Groom, L. E. Isaacs, I. A. Kennedy, T. Lyne, Sir W .. J. Mahon, H. Manifold, J. C. Mauger, S. McDonald, C. McEacharn, Sir M. O'Malley, K. Page, J. Phillips, P. Quick, Sir J. Ronald, J. B. Solomon, E. Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Turner, Sir G. Watson, J. C. Wilkinson, J. McCay, J. W. (Teller) Salmon, C. C. (Teller) 13 Cameron, N. Cook, J. Cooke, S. W. Edwards, G. B. Kirwan, J. W. McMillan, Sir. W. Paterson, A, Smith, S. Solomon, V. L. Thomson, D. Wilks, W. H. Fuller, G. W. (Teller) Glynn, P. McM. (Teller) 24 Cruickshank, G. A. Fisher, A. Higgins, H. B. Deakin, A. McLean, A. Sawers, W. B. S. C. Skene, T. McColl, J. H. Tudor, F. Crouch, R. A. Ewing, T. T. Clarke, F. Hughes, W. M. Brown, T. Hartnoll, W. Willis, H. Smith, B. Conroy, A. H. Kingston, C. C. Poynton, A. Bamford, F. W. Knox, W. Groom, A. C. McLean, F. E. Majority...... 17 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the affirmative. Clause agreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. Bill reported without amendment ; report adopted. 4541 23:17:00 House adjourned, at 11.17 p.m.