1903-09-03 1 2 0 REPS 4585 0 HouseofRepresentatives 1903-09-03 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3.30 p.m., and read prayers. PETITIONS. Mr. CHANTER presented a petition from certain electors of New South Wales, praying the House to pass into law the Bonuses for Manufactures Bill. Sir JOHN QUICK presented a petition from certain railway employes in the Bendigo district, praying the House to so amend the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill that it shall apply to railway employes. Mr. MANIFOLD presented a similar petition from certain electors of Corangamite. Mr. TUDOR presented three similar petitions from certain electors of Mernda, Flinders, and the metropolitan area. Petitions received. Mr. TUDOR presented a petition from the executive officers of the National Anti-Sweating League of Victoria, praying the House not to insert any limit of time in the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. Petition received and read. PARLIAMENTARY BUILDINGS. Mr. PAGE. - I wish to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to a very objectionable nuisance which has existed in the northern lobby for some weeks past. If a similar nuisance were discovered in a private house ' the occupier would be taken to court about it. I should like to see something done quickly to remedy the state of things of which I complain. If it is not remedied, most of us who frequent that part of the building may get typhoid fever. Mr. SPEAKER. - I have, within the last day or two, taken steps which I think will remedy the trouble. If it is not remedied by the means adopted, I will summon the House Committee to consider with me what else should be done. REMARKS BY MR. KINGSTON. Mr. SYDNEY SMITH. - I should like to ask the right honorable member for South Australia, through you, Mr. Speaker, a question without notice. In to-day's issue of the Melbourne Age the following comment upon yesterday's proceedings in this House appears - Mr. Kingston's sincerity was- undoubted, but unfortunately it was understood by several that ho was u member of the Cabinet when it agreed to the procedure against which he was now inveighing. I ask the right honorable member if there is any truth in that statement. Mr. KINGSTON.- I am able to give the statement a complete denial. There is not a word of truth in it. It was never suggested, whilst I was a member of the Government, that the Electoral Act should be amended, and it was certainly never suggested that it should be amended in regard to those important matters of principle the departure from which 1! have so strongly denounced. 4586 bill 4586 Motion (by Sir Edmund Barton) pro posed - That the Bill be now read a third time. 4586 L2G Wentworth 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - Yesterday I asked the Prime Minister if he would be good f enough to postpone the third reading of this Bill until Tuesday next,, as I thought that its importance demanded that it should not be rushed through the House with anything like indecent haste. 4586 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - Rushed through ! I think it has been hanging fire. 4586 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 4586 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I do not expect sympathy from that side of the Chamber. When members of a deliberative assembly make up their minds on a question, and then determinedly absent themselves from their places day after day. 4586 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - It does not lie -with honorable members on that side to make a complaint of that kind. 4586 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - The leader of the Opposition was present only fifty-six times out of 226 sittings last session. 4586 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - One attendance by him may be worth 200 attendances by other honorable members. 4586 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Since I called the House to order three honorable members have made remarks across the chamber. I ask that attention be paid to requests from the Chair. 4586 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I should like to remind honorable members of the history of this measure. A week or so ago certain resolutions were passed, disapproving of the proposed distributions of the Electoral Commissioners of four of the States. Under the Electoral Act, the next stage which should have been followed was to return those proposals to the Commissioners for rectification. The Government, however, determined to override the Act, and, with that object, introduced the Bill which is now before us. The second reading of the measure was moved and agreed to on Tuesday last. Charges of obstruction have been hurled against members of the Opposition, but they must be considered groundless since the second reading of one of the most important Bills with which we could deal was carried after a debate of eight hours.. Yesterday we put the Bill through the committee stage. I then requested the Prime Minister, in consideration of the fact that several honorable members had refrained from speaking in order' to save the time of the country, to consent to the postponement of the third reading until next week. I think, that that was a very reasonable request. I have promised on behalf of honorable members on this side of the Chamber that if it is granted we shall conclude our remarks on the motion for the third reading on Tuesday next, so that, as under any circumstances the Bill would probably not reach the Senate until that day, the delay would be a matter of only one day. Similar requests have been complied with in the past when there has been no great hurry in regard to the legislation under consideration, and there is certainly . no danger in delaying the consideration of this measure. In view of the intense feeling on the subject which prevails in the most populous State of the union, the request is surely a reasonable one. I admit that the subject has been debated - I will not say ad nauseam, but very fully - and the salient points of our objection to the meosurehave been well brought out. That objection, briefly stated, is this : That no matter what raaybetheauomalieain the distributions' proposed by the Commissioners, they must be fewer and less disastrous to the electors than the anomalies which will arise if the divisions adopted under State enactments three years ago be retained. We have asked Ministers to meet that objection, but the only reply we have received is an inane statement about the migration of population from the interior to the more settled coastal districts because of the drought. The Coinrmissioners, however, state in their reports that they took that circumstance into consideration. The Electoral Act allowed them, in determining the boundaries of divisions, to exceed the quota by one-fifth more or one-fifth less, so that they were able to add to or take from the number of electors in any division some thousands of names. Full advantage was taken of that provision in regard to the districts which had been denuded to some extent of their population. The Government have no right to try to force this measure through, seeing the fair and reasonable treatment which has been meted out to them by honorable members on this side of the Chamber. 4587 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - Seeing that honorable members wasted all yesterday's sitting ! 4587 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - Can we he said to have wasted time when we allowed a Bill of this description to pass through Committee in the one sitting? 4587 KZV 0 0 RONALD, James Mr Ronald - Yes. 4587 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - Honorable members opposite consider it a waste of time for us to -discuss roguish acts. 4587 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable and learned member must withdraw that statement. 4587 K4E FT; LP from 1913 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I withdraw it. 4587 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I have been, as I think you, Mr. Speaker, can testify, a friend of orderly debate, and have endeavoured to conserve public time, and, without being boastful, I think I may say that no Opposition has ever exercised more self restraint than chat with which I am now associated. I do not suppose that the Prime Minister is actually bound by his conversation with me, but in fairness to myself and to honorable members on this side of the House, I must say that whilst there was no absolute agreement, I left him with the understanding that my very reasonable request would be complied with. I pointed out, as I said before, that compliance with my request could not involve more than one day's delay, and, under the circumstances, it is incumbent on the Government if they still decline to accede to our request to show that one day's delay is a matter of great importance on this occasion. The postponement asked for would in the end save time, because I have promised, so far as the Opposition is concerned, that the Bill shall be read a third time on Tuesday. Although the question may have been to a certain extent threshed out, it is of such vital .importance to the community that it is absolutely necessary for those who believe that the Government are using their power tyrannically to do everything to sustain the battle as long as they reasonably can. I do not know whether what I have said will in any way appeal to the Prime Minister. I do not know whether at a later stage he will agree to take the vote on the third reading on Tuesday. That, of course, would answer the purpose, and, without saying that he has given an absolute pledge, I think that he is morally bound, under the circumstances, to accede to the request. I had-no opportunity under the forms of the House, to bring this matter before him until the third reading had been called on, and I now ask him not to take advantage of the overwhelming majority which he has behind him on this occasion. There is such a thing as magnanimity in politics as well as in ordinary life - at least I hope that we have not given up that essential characteristic of strong men. We stand as a small band against an overwhelming majority. There has been no obstruction and no waste of time, and the speeches delivered have not been of inordinate length when the enormous importance of the question is considered. This is not a matter upon which we may change our views if public opinion should prove to be against us, but an attempt is being made to strangle that public opinion which is the very basis of our democratic institutions. The Prime Minister is silent, and I can only hope that as the debate develops - as it undoubtedly will develop - he will see his way to accede to a reasonable request, which I really understood he would grant. 4587 009LR Hunter Protectionist Minister for External Affairs 1 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - T have had some of that regard for public business which others affect, and, therefore, 1 have not yet spoken on this question. It is true that my honorable friend asked me yesterday for a postponement till Tuesday, but how he could have carried away the impression or understanding that his request would be complied with I am absolutely at a loss to conceive. As the honorable member has referred to the conversation which took place, I desire to say that he made the proposal to me in my room that the third reading of the Bill should stand over until Tuesday. I said that I saw no reason for the delay, and I mentioned, further, that I could not see why the business of Parliament' should be hung up to suit the convenience of any one gentleman, even supposing that he were not now a member of this House. I said that I thought it was wrong to entertain any such idea. I told the honorable member - and I think the House will indorse what I said - that the measure had been unduly subjected to "stonewalling," and that, therefore, I could not see my way to agree to any further delay. He asked me to take the circumstances into consideration, and I told him that I would consider the matter for myself without any Condition. Afterwards I came into the Chamber, and before the division was taken, but after the bells had been rung, I said to the honorable member, across the table - " I intend to put this measure on the paper for to-morrow, and I shall consider it for myself apart from any condition." Those are the .exact words I used, and I cannot understand how any one could have carried away the impression that I intended to do anything more than give the measure that consideration which is given to all public business by the. Prime Minister. I assure honorable members that I used no words that any reasonable man could understand - except he might have felt after the long struggle which has taken place that my words should bear something more than their ordinary meaning - as conveying that I would do anything more than consider the course to be adopted with regard to the Bill in the ordinary way. I cannot understand how the honorable member could have formed his impression after I had stated that the Bill had been subjected to undue "stone-walling," and that I could see no reason for a further postponement. 4588 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - A postponement was promised, apart from that altogether. 4588 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - I wish the honorable member would not interrupt. I wish to say that this Bill derives its importance only from the resolutions to which the House has agreed, and from no other circumstances. The passing of the Bill forms a part of the process which we have laid down for the proper carrying out, according to the law, of the determination at which we asked the House to arrive, and which has been placed on record. The Bill is intended simply to give legal effect to the decisions of the House. The resolutions were the subject of very lengthy debate. Whether the lengthy utterances of members opposite can be called stone-walling or not, after the Bill was introduced it was treated at every stage in the same way. 4588 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I rise to a point of order. You have already ruled, Mr. Speaker, on several occasions, that honorable members cannot refer to previous debates. The Prime Minister is referring to previous debates for the purpose of animadverting upon the conduct of members of the Opposition. 4588 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I also desire yourruling, Mr. Speaker, whether the Prime Minister is in order in saying that any honorable member of the Opposition has. been guilty of "stone-walling." 4588 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Upon the point of order raised by the honorable member for Parramatta, I may say that I d'id not hear the right honorable gentleman refer to previous debates. I heard him mention some facts which were altogether apart from those debates, and which are therefore open to reference. 4588 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - He referred to the> previous decisions of the House. 4588 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I think that that has. been permitted to honorable members on both sides of the Chamber, and I did not notice anything in the remarks of the Prime Minister which called for my interposition. On the point of order raised by the honorable member for Macquarie, I do not think that he would seriously suggest that the Prime Minister was out of order in his references to " stone-walling." I noticed, that the right honorable gentleman referred to " stone-walling," but he was quoting a. conversation which took place in another part of the building, and I do not see how he could relate the conversation without quoting the words then used. 4588 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I hope that other honorable members will be allowed similarliberty. 4588 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - I was about to say that the Bill was founded upon certain resolutions of the House. 4588 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I shall have something to say directly. 4588 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -Order ! It comes with very bad grace from an honorable member who has just applied to the Chair to insist upon the observance of the Standing Orders, to immediately make persistent interjections, in defiance of the Standing Orders. 4589 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I apologize, Mr. Speaker. 4589 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - I was pointing out - without referring to the debates - that we had dealt' with certain resolutions, which had been discussed at very great length. Several long speeches were delivered, which I do riot intend to quote. The subject was thoroughly threshed out, not only in connexion with the resolutions but on the motion for the second reading of the Bill; and also during its progress through Committee. In what position are we now 1 The Bill was considered in Committee yesterday, and the House adopted the report upon the same day. That fact of itself shows that no amendment was made. The Committee accepted the whole of the provisions of the Bill without altering a line or even a word, and the House adopted the report of the Committee. I ask, therefore, what is the reason for any further delay 1 Unless we are to accept the principle that, at the dictation of a gentleman who is no longer a member of this House, and whose reasons for not being a member I cannot canvass any more than I can understand, the proceedings of this Parliament are to be hung up during the time that he is absent, upon what ground are we to make the postponement'? . As I have stated, the Committee expressed its willingness to retain every line and letter of the Bill, the report was adopted, and we are now asked to vote upon the third reading of the measure. It is not as if any reasonable amendment could be moved, or any attempt made to alter the Bill at this stage. All efforts made to that end have been defeated, and to repeat them would be to unduly trifle with this House. 4589 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The time has passed at which any amendment could be proposed. 4589 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - And for that I think we may thank Mr. Speaker, as well as our Standing Orders. Therefore, the question before us is whether we shall now read the Bill a third time after what has passed regarding it, or leave it over until Tuesday. It is not the fact that the proposal involves only one day's delay. If the request of the honorable member for Wentworth were acceded to, the Bill would be delayed over to-day and to-morrow, until Tuesday, and therefore, the public business would be hung up for two days. I am sure that the honorable member is not saying anything but what he means when he appeals to the Government on the ground of magnanimity. It is true that there is such a thing as magnanimity. But is there not also such a thing as reason ? Is not this a question of pure reason? If any solid reason or any solid grounds could be urged for holding over the Bill until Tuesday the honorable member might appeal, not merely to my magnanimity, but to my courtesy. But what reason has been advanced for the proposal 1 What could be gained by the discussion of the Bill on Tuesday rather than to - day ? Under the circumstances, and using our, best powers of imagination, what arguments can be applicable to the Bill which have not already been advanced ? It is not as if this measure were the result of prolonged investigation and inquiry in Committee, in the course of which a number of amendments expressing the will of the House had been carried. The third reading simply involves the same assertion which was carried on the second reading, after a debate which exhausted all the means of legitimate discussion - to say no more of it - and which, I suppose, it is intended to repeat at every stage. We cannot complain of exhaustive speeches - we cannot apply to them in this House some of the epithets which others outside may apply to them - but we can record our opinion that this question has been adequately debated, and I submit that it has been. But the whole purpose of postponing the debate was let out by my honorable friend. He said that if we discussed this Bill to-day it would answer the purpose of the Opposition if we did not take a vote upon it until Tuesday next. What legitimate purpose of Parliament is to be served by debating the Bill to-day and not taking a vote upon it? I cannot understand it, unless there is Something behind these tactics which as yet is undisclosed. What reasonable purpose can be served by discussing the^matter to-day and deferring a vote upon it until next Tuesday ? I cannot obtain an answer to that question. Indeed, no answer is possible. If the purpose sought to be achieved is - as was the case previously - that an opportunity shall again be afforded to a gentleman to return here and make a speech upon the Bill in this House, which - had he discharged his duty by remaining here - he could have made over and over again, I will not be implicated in it. 4589 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The right honorable gentleman is very brave when the cheers are plentiful. 4590 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - That is a taunt which I regard as mere wind, and I think that is not an inappropriate epithet to apply to it, because at all events the description comes within the bounds of reason. We have been told that we have no right to force this Bill through the House after the reasonable treatment which has been meted out to us. My answer to that statement is, first, that we are not forcing it in view of the long delay that has already taken place, and, secondly, that I have yet to find some proof that any portion of the treatment which has been meted out to us has been reasonable. Mr. SYDNEY SMITH (Macquarie).I have listened to some of the insulting remarks of the Prime Minister. 4590 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order. Will the honorable member resume his seat? If the Prime Minister had made any insulting remarks I should have called him to order. 4590 L2I Macquarie FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - He referred to me in a way that I consider was insulting. 1 do not wish to apply similar language to him, otherwise I might be able to say something which he does not like. It has always been my endeavour to avoid the introduction of personal matters into our debates. Therefore I am sorry that the Prime Minister has set a bad example, especially as he is open to a reply to which I will not give expression at the present time. I hold that we ought to conduct our debates in such a way that when we quit this Chamber we can meet upon the most friendly terms. I am indeed surprised at the attitude taken up by the right honorable gentleman. He has declared that, as the result of a conversation with him, the acting leader of the Opposition carried away a wrong impression concerning the understanding which was arrived at. I wish to say that the honorable and learned member for "Werriwa was speaking last night, when the acting leader of the Opposition explained to me that his impression was that the Government would consent to adjourn the debate upon the third reading of this measure until next Tuesday. I also spoke to the Minister for Trade and Customs in reference to the matter. I asked him whether he would consent to an adjournment of the debate, and pointed out that no difficulty would be experienced by honorable members of the Opposition in continuing it - a fact which he himself admitted - till such a time that it would be impossible to proceed with the third reading until next week. AVe could easily have continued the discussion until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, when it would have been impossible for the Ministry to fix the third reading of the measure before Tuesday next. The Minister assured me that whilst he could not enter into any compact, the Opposition might confidently leave the matter in his hands, and that they would be satisfied with the decision of the Government. Subsequently he repeated that statement to the honorable and learned member for Werriwa, who will explain the impression which he gathered from the Minister's remarks. I have always endeavoured to respect any promise that has been made by honorable members upon this side of the House. For instance, when a promise was made last week, that if the second reading of the Bill were postponed till Tuesday the debate would be concluded that day, although ' I was not a party to the arrangement, I was content to abide by it. 4590 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - We did not promise that. 4590 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - At any rate, there was an impression that the entire Opposition were bound by that promise. 4590 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - What did I tell the honorable member before the division was taken last night 1 4590 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I told the honorable member the impression which I gathered as the result of my interview with the Minister for Trade and Customs. Thereupon the honorable member stated that I had better get a distinct compact from the Minister. I know the tactics of the honorable gentleman, but the honorable member for Eden-Monaro evidently knows them still better. He said in effect that I had better obtain a written agreement from the Minister, otherwise I could not accept his word. 4590 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - I did not say that. 4590 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have already allowed much more latitude than is usual in the case of the acting leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister, and the honorable member for Macquarie in discussing arrangements which were said to have been arrived at. These are altogether apart from this discussion, and I shall now have to confine the debate to the third reading of the Bill. 4590 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Prime Minister took considerable pains to place honorable members upon this side of the House in a wrong light. 4591 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Already I have allowed unusual latitude, and the honorable member must now address himself to the Bill. 4591 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I accepted what I regarded as a promise from the Minister for Trade and Customs. I admit that the acting leader of the Opposition was misled 4591 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have twice ab least asked the honorable member to continue the debate upon the third reading of the Bill. I have' pointed out to him that in the special circumstances of the case, I have already allowed the acting leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister, and himself much more latitude than is provided for by the Standing Orders, but I must now request him to confine his remarks to the third reading of the Bill. 4591 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I bow to your ruling, sir, and shall take another opportunity of dealing with that matter. I have already taken a strong and determined stand upon this Bill, because I feel that it will inflict a great injustice upon the electors of the Commonwealth. I offer no apology for the course which I have adopted. I feel that I am justified in taking any action that may be necessary to emphasize my protest against the disfranchisement of 200,000 electors of Australia. In the course of the debate last evening I referred to the very able and forceful speech which was delivered by the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston. Honorable members opposite were .so much impressed by that speech that they have endeavoured to lessen its importance by securing the insertion of a paragraph in the Age to the effect that, whilst a member of the Barton Government, the right honorable member had, in Cabinet, given expression to a contrary opinion. 4591 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir Edmund Barton - No Minister ever said that. 4591 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, has already assured the House that this question was not considered by the Cabinet whilst he was a member of the present Administration. He has felt it to be his duty to offer a strong protest against the iniquity which the Government propose to perpetrate. Because he has done so, all sorts of 9X2 motives have been imputed to him, just as they have been imputed to members of the Opposition by the Prime Minister. If an unfortunate man, through ignorance of the law, unduly influences or in any way interferes with the free exercise of the franchise by a single elector, he is liable, under the provisions of the Electoral Act, to a fine of £200, with the alternative of twelve months' imprisonment. That is the law which this House deliberately passed. It also provides that when the House disagrees with any proposed distribution, the scheme must be returned to the Commissioner for reconsideration. The Government have not attempted to comply with these provisions ; but they have not been prosecuted for an offence against the Act. They made this law, and cannot claim to be in ignorance of its terms. I have particulars relating to a case in which a man waa prosecuted under a somewhat similar law in South Australia, for attempting to unduly influence a certain voter, and was ordered to pay a fine, or in default, to be imprisoned. The Government, however, propose to break the law, not in respect of one elector, but in regard to at least 200,000. The Minister contends that the women of Australia support the action taken by the Government ; but I would point out that at a meeting held last night at Albury, a town in his own electorate, a motion was unanimously carried condemning his action, and requesting him to interview the women of the division. I do not think that the honorable gentleman is entitled to the credit which he claims for the extension of the franchise to women. The credit is really due to you, Mr. Speaker, for you were mainly instrumental in securing the insertion of the provision in the Constitution enabling the franchise to be extended to the women of the Commonwealth. 4591 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Does the honorable member consider that matter has anything to do with the Bill before the House 1 4591 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I am simply pointing out that the Minister has never been sincere in this matter. He has only been humbugging the electors. 4591 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must withdraw that expression. 4591 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I withdraw it, sir, but I contend that the gross maladministration of the Minister's Department will result in the women of Australia being deprived, to a very large extent, of the value of their votes. I believe that when they have an opportunity at the ballot-box to express their opinion of his action they will do so in a way that will not be pleasing to him. From the statements which have been made it would appear that the Government have stolen a march on the acting leader of the Opposition, but they are not likely to again catch him napping. It is said that this is a question which affects only New South Wales, but I have some facts to submit which will show that it also seriously affects the electors of this State. In the existing electorates of Balaclava, Yarra, Northern Melbourne and Kooyong, there are 140,000 electors - and possibly the new rolls will show an increase in that number - while in the electorates of Wimmera, Laanecoorie, Gippsland and ' Indi, represented by four Government supporters, there are only 72,400 electors, or a difference of 67,600. In spite of this fact the Government contend that they are observing the principle of one vote one value. 4592 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - One telegram one version. 4592 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - Yes. "Stone-wall still succeeding." 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - That remark does not apply to me ; but if I had been in the House I should have been just as strong as were other honorable members of the Opposition in opposing the action of the Government. 4592 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The honorable member contradicted my statement about the telegram. 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I think I am entitled to reply to the statement made by the honorable member. 4592 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is not bound to reply to any interjection. 4592 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - Read the message. 4592 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Honorable members on the Government side of the House must obey the Standing Orders, otherwise it is impossible for me to expect honorable members of the Opposition to do so. I appeal to the honorable member for Bourke and the honorable member for Melbourne Ports to observe the Standing Orders in a way that will assist me to maintain the dignity of the House. 4592 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - They are jackals. 4592 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must withdraw that remark. 4592 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do so ; in fact, I have already done so. 4592 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I am very reluctant to call attention so repeatedly to the Standing Orders, but I must ask honorable members to obey them more particularly. One of the standing orders provides that an honorable member addressing the House shall do so standing, and I must therefore ask the honorable member for Parramatta to withdraw the words which are complained of, not from his seat, but standing. 4592 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - You could not have seen me, Mr. Speaker. I stood up and withdrew the remark, but I beg now to do so once more. 4592 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I beg the honorable member's pardon if I failed to observe him rise. I certainly did not see him do so. 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I find that there are nearly 19,000 electors in Balaclava in excess of the number in Wimmera, so that over 18,000 electors in the division of Balaclava will practically be disfranchised. The number of electors in the Yarra division is nearly 20,000 in excess of the number in Wimmera. 4592 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - The difference is greater. 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I am dealing only with the old returns. There is a difference of nearly 20,000 between the number of electors in Northern Melbourne and the number in the electorate of Wimmera, while the number of electors in Kooyong is 22, 194 in excess of the number in Wimmera. Nevertheless, the representatives of these constituencies, with the exception of the honorable member for Yarra, are supporting the action of the Government. In the electorate of Bendigo there are nearly 10,000 more electors than are to be found in the Wimmera division. The honorable and learned member for Bendigo is supporting the Government proposal under which one miner in Wimmera will have a voting power equal to that possessed by practically two miners in Bendigo. 4592 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - The miners of Bendigo are capable of looking after themselves. 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The honorable and learned member is looking after himself. 4592 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - The honorable member should attend to his own business. He should not poke his nose into other people's business. 4592 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It is his business. 4592 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The honorable and learned member for Bendigo appears to forget that we have now a united Australia. I would point out that I stand here not merely as a representative of a division in New South Wales, but as a representative of the Commonwealth as a whole. If the honorable and learned member fails in his duty I have a right to interfere, and in this case I am pointing out the wrong which his action will inflict on the people. The members of this Parliament are only beginning to discover the Minister's engineering ability. He told the honorable member for Werriwa last night that if we would rest satisfied he would do the right thing, but to-day he repudiates the arrangement. 4593 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did not say that last night, and I have not said anything like it to-day. 4593 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Ballarat division, which is represented by the Attorney-General, contains nearly 15,000 electors more than reside within the Wimmera division. I have taken these figures from the Melbourne Age, so that honorable members opposite will not dare to question them, however much they may be inclined to do so. Therefore two miners or farmers in Ballarat are only equal to one miner or farmer in the Wimmera. Similarly, in the Flinders division there are nearly 10,000 electors more than in the Wimmera division, while in the Corio division there are 24,396 electors, and only 14,700 in the Wimmera division. Is this carrying out the principle of one vote one value? The Minister has tried to raise the question of town against country, but the divisions which I am comparing now are all country 'divisions. Why should there be these differences ? The Constitution declares that every elector shall have .a vote of the same value, and the people believed that that principle when embodied in the electoral law of the Commonwealth would be respected. The Government, however, are now designedly failing to carry out the provisions of the law. In the Corangamite division there are nearly 10,000 electors more than in the Wimmera division, while in the division represented by the honorable member for Wannon, who had the courage to vote against the Government proposal, there are nearly 8,000 electors more than in the Wimmera division. Comparing six other divisions with the divisions of Indi, Echuca, Laanecoorie, Moira, Gippsland, and one other I find that there is a difference of 36,000 electors in favour of the latter, all of which are represented by Government supporters. 4593 KED 0 0 KENNEDY, Thomas Mr Kennedy - The Electoral Act allows that difference. 4593 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - It was understood that the Commissioners would adhere to the quota as nearly as possible. 4593 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Nothing of the kind. 4593 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - It was adhered to pretty nearly in the case of South Australia and Tasmania. The Government were afraid to come into collision with their late colleague with regard to the South Australian distribution. Moreover, the public will say that they had not the same motive for disapproving of that distribution as actuated them in regard to the proposed New South Wales distribution. 4593 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - Have there been any complaints from the electors of the divisions- to which the honorable member has referred ? 4593 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Government has not given time for complaints. The second reading of this Bill was moved only on Tuesday last. 4593 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - But the proposed Victorian distribution was disapproved of some time ago. 4593 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - The Electoral Act provides that when either House disapproves of a proposed distribution, the Minister shall return it to the Commissioner, and, no doubt, the people expected that the law would be observed. The Government, however, has wilfully neglected to observe it. The Act required them to prepare rolls, appoint Commissioners, and do everything necessary to put the electoral machinery into proper working order. They failed, however, to carry out their statutory duty. No doubt the Minister will try to put the blame on his officers, but he and his colleagues alone are responsible. If any one else tried to prevent an elector from recording his vote, he would be guilty of a criminal offence, and liable to imprisonment for twelve months. But the Government are destroying the representation of 200,000 electors. It was not provided, when we passed the Customs Act, that the electors of Lang division, for example, should pay only in proportion to their representation - that is, that they should contribute only one twenty-sixth of the total revenue raised in the State of New South Wales. Parliament rightly decided that every man and woman in the Commonwealth should be amenable to taxation. But the Government object to give the electors of the Commonwealth equal. representation. I have endeavoured to enter my protest as strongly as possible against the great wrong which is being inflicted upon the electors of the Commonwealth. I admit that there is a strong combination against us on this occasion. I should not be in order if I were to explain how that combination was brought about. Some of the honorable members who belong to it are sorry that they agreed to join it, but they are remaining loyal to the Government. That circumstance is very unfortunate, because, with their assistance, the Government will probably succeed in disfranchising 200,000 electors of the Commonwealth. 4594 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - To what combination does the honorable member refer 1 4594 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - I do not wish to deal with matters of a personal nature in this House. I shall take an opportunity of speaking freely on the public platform, and I shall give honorable members an opportunity of appealing to the Law Courts if they think fit to test the accuracy of any statements I may feel called upon to make during the coming electoral campaign. A number of honorable members who are now supporting the Government told the electors that every vote would have an equal value, and that they would, therefore, have an equal voice in all matters which might claim the attention of the Federal Parliament. 4594 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - Does the Constitution embody that principle 1 4594 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - Yes, it goes further. It provides that the. number of representatives shall be calculated according to the total population of the various States. 4594 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - Tasmania has as many representatives in the Senate as has New South Wales. 4594 L2I FT 0 0 SMITH, Sydney Mr SYDNEY SMITH - My arguments apply to the representation in this House. But equal voting power is given to every man in any particular State, so far as the election of the senators for that State is concerned. I regret that the Government have not redeemed their promise to postpone the debate upon the third reading of the Bill till Tuesday. I kept my promise to the Government last Tuesday, and I shall continue to fulfil all pledges which I may make, notwithstanding that the Government are not always to be depended upon.' We have done our duty in resisting, so far as we were able, a dastardly attempt to take away the rights and privileges of hundreds of thousands of electors. 4594 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It was understood by honorable members on this side of the House that the third reading of the Bill would be postponed till Tuesday. I do not mean that there was a precise promise made to that effect, but honorable members left for their homes last evening in the belief that the third reading would be held over until Tuesday, and that was the understanding with which we met here to-day. 4594 009LR 0 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir Edmund Barton - Not on mv part. 4594 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not know on whose part it was, but, undoubtedly, that was conveyed to me and to nearly all the other honorable members on this side of the - Chamber. I was informed that the Minister in charge of the Bill had made a statement to the effect indicated. It was certainly not understood that the Prime Minister would treat the request in the stiff and off-hand manner in which he has received it to-day. It is unfortunate that there should have been any misunderstanding. The Prime Minister referred in most contemptuous terms to a right honorable gentleman who is not a member of this House, and his attitude was supported by a number of his followers. I venture to say that the right honorable gentleman referred to will soon again be a member of this -House, and, if he so wills, he may be here when many of those who supported the Prime Minister'scontemptuous remarks are no longer amongst us. I do not know that it is unusual or unreasonable to ask for a postponement such as that now desired, in order to meet the convenience of a distinguished member of this Chamber. It is only a quibble to say that he is not a. member of this House, because we know that he will be elected to-morrow. He was entitled to considerate treatment . in regard to this vitally important question, to treatment such as has been, over and over again, meted out in this Chamber - always to its credit and to the credit of our parliamentary institutions. When, therefore, we asked that the third reading of the Bill should be held over until the return of the right honorable gentleman, who thought this matter of such supreme importance that at great expense to himself he appealed specifically to the electors upon it, he should have been granted the courtesy of an opportunity to speak upon the Bill before it is finally disposed of. It seems, however, that we may ask in vain for any fair treatment in connexion with this measure. Honorable members have sat stolidly behind the Government whilst the most important matter that has ever come before this Chamber - the most important that can ever come before it, because it relates to the distribution of political- power - has been dealt with. I should like to remind the honorable and learned member for Bendigo that it is the business of honorable members to give their attention to everything which affects the Commonwealth, whether it relates to Bendigo or to some distant part of Western Australia. The honorable and learned member, who has written a treatise of world-wide fame upon the Constitution, wants to know whether it is any of our business to poke our noses into the electoral affairs of Bendigo. I would remind the honorable and learned member that the affairs of his electorate are just as much our concern as his. The honorable and learned member voted against the wish of the majority of the representatives of New South Wales.- He assisted the Government to contemptuously cast aside the scheme of distribution which suited us. It was his business then to poke his nose into our electorates to some purpose and to assist the Government to override the feelings of a great majority of the people of New South Wales. I do not question his right to do so. It was his duty to take that interest in the matter, and equally it is the duty of every honorable member to have regard to the conditions of the Commonwealth, irrespective of whether those interests are in Bendigo or Northern Queensland. The honorable and learned member ought not to forget that this is a Federal Parliament, and his interjection, therefore, was a most untimely one, especially, coming as it did, from so distinguished a federalist. What has been the course adopted by the Govern-' ment upon this most important matter t They made every provision for a fair and equal distribution of political power throughout Australia. They mentioned that matter in the Governor-General's speech as being one of first rate importance. They have spent thousands of pounds in qualifying themselves to make the distribution as evenly as the circumstances of the. case would permit. Now, after all this work, to use an old couplet, it seems that the policy of the Government has been - To promise, pause, prepare, postpone, And end by letting things alone. After all this waste of money we are asked to cast aside the work which has been accomplished, to declare ourselves unequal to the task of fairly apportioning the political power of the Commonwealth, and to fall back upon the old State rolls - rotten as they have repeatedly been alleged to be - as the basis of the distribution of political power for the election of the next Parliament. All this has been foreseen and foretold. Personally I knew what was coming, and I warned the Minister that he was deferring consideration of this matter till time would not permit of its being adequately treated. For many weeks past I have seen through the little game of the Government. They have been straining every nerve to feel the pulse of honorable members upon this matter, and to arrange the electorates to suit their own convenience and their own party purposes. That is a strong statement to make, but I believe that it correctly describes the situation, and it is due to the importance of the matter that we should state our opinions as plainly as possible. The honorable member for Laanecoorie has asked whether we can point to a single instance in which the people have raised an objection to the Government proposals. Similarly, the honorable member for Melbourne Ports has declared that "the electors do not bother" about this matter. That is a nice doctrine to lay down' in a representative assembly. Are we to keep our eyes upon danger signals outside so that we may escape anything which may threaten us ? May I remind honorable members that when the public outside rise in their might, and demand that we shall do certain things, it is because they are disgusted that we have not done them without being told. I remember a speech which the late Mr. Gladstone delivered upon this point. He said that the question of the distribution of political power ought always to be considered when there was no agitation outside ; when there was no active demand from the people for it. Then, he added, it could be discussed most calmly, and Parliament could make its arrangements free from agitation and party passion. But in this Parliament a new doctrine has been promulgated. We are. told that the people outside do not " bother " about the matter - that there is no sign that anybody objects to the distribution of political power proposed j and, therefore, that we are quite absolved from blame, no matter what action we may take. I say that the acquiescence of the people outside is no criterion that they are contented ; that they hold no pronounced opinions upon this matter ; or that they are not interested in the distribution of the political power of the Commonwealth. . Their apathy may arise from many causes. It has often arisen from causes which are antagonistic to our Parliamentary institutions as a whole. Therefore, it is no argument to say that we ought to take no steps for a fresh distribution, because the people outside do not " bother " about it. I commend the political attitude of the honorable members to whom I have referred to the general public. I have yet to learn that in Parliament we must only do our duty when the stockwhip of the people outside is held over us to compel us to do it. Why do the people in some quarter's take no interest in this matter ? It may be because they trust their representatives, and, if so, it makes our responsibility so much the greater. It increases our obligation to see that they obtain a fair distribution of political power, so that they may exercise their equality at the ballot box. In my opinion this Bill is deliberately designed to evade a full and just distribution of the democratic rights of the people. We want no strict enforcement of those rights. We' are not asking for any mathematical nicety in any scheme of distribution. We do not ask for what is impossible. Surely there are sufficient difficulties inherent in any scheme without the intrusion of these alien and rejected political theories. I have yet to learn that in this Commonwealth Parliament under the Constitution which has been given to us, we must go back to the old theory which has been set up by the honorable member for Gippsland that there is, and ought to be some special political virtue in living in the country or within a prescribed geographical a7-ea. We have no right to intrude these difficulties into any scheme of distribution that may be proposed. 4596 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Act makes ample, provision for ordinary contingencies. 4596 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Exactly. We ought not to make provision for the old, obsolete political theories which have been voiced by the Minister for Trade and Customs and some of his supporters. Provision has been made in the Electoral Act for'' a margin of one -fifth either above or below the quota. But that provision was not made in order that we might have a restrictive classification of the voters of the Commonwealth. "It was not inserted so that we might say to a voter in the country, " Your vote shall be equal to that of two electors in the town." It was inserted rather because it recognised that in the grouping of electorates a more convenient and equitable arrangement might be made by allowing for a slight deviation from the strict, rigid theory of the quota than would otherwise be possible. It was that which led to the incorporation in the Act of the provision which has been abused, torn asunder, and misrepresented at every point in this debate. The Minister himself boasted last night that it was a. singular circumstance that there had been a large and growing majority behind him throughout the whole of the discussion upon the Government proposals. "Might is right." Evidently that is the theory which is being developed by honorable members in this Chamber. 4596 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It is not only the theory, but the practice. 4596 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable and learned member for West Sydney is quite correct. At any rate that is the theory to which utterance was given by the Minister. Because a large majority of honorable members is behind him he argues that this Bill must be right and proper. May I remind him that before to-day the largest majorities in the British Parliament have been the most corrupt majorities, and in saying that I do not reflect in any degree upon this Chamber. I have no reason to do that. I make the remark merely to emphasize the monstrous doctrine which is laid down by the Minister. Has he forgotten that the Government of Walpole, the strongest and longest that ever existed in the British Empire, was notoriously the most rotten that it ever had ? To sa)' that the testimony to the justice of his action is the fact that he is supported by a large and increasing majority, is no argument to address to a representative Chamber such as this. One might fairly retort that if that majority has been increasingly large, it has also been increasingly dumb. The principle which they have observed throughout has been to sit tight behind the Minister, and say nothing. Whenever an honorable member opposite has dared to say anything, we have seen the Minister contemptuously wave him down with a flourish of his hand. It is a, pitiable sight to witness in this, the first Parliament of Australia. I should not have believed that such a state of things could prevail had I not seen it with my own eyes. I care not what the attitude of the Government and their supporters may be, but when the result of their combination is to force upon this House a measure which is deliberately intended to deprive the people of their_ votes, I say that that majority is being used for a purpose which is alien to the very Constitution itself. To say that the Minister has a majority behind him upon this Bill is no argument whatever. I entirely concur in the wise remarks of the right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, who said that we could not be trusted to " fix up " our own seats. He affirms that we have legislatively declared our incompetence to do so; that we have legislatively, affirmed that it was not a wise thing that each of us should have the determination of our own electoral boundaries. That was a wise remark to make, and a very proper one. It expresses the idea underlying the Electoral Act. In it we declared that we have neither the knowledge nor the proper temper to fairly distribute the political power of the Commonwealth. Further, we declared that this was a question for the people outside, and was only secondarily a question for representatives in this Chamber. It is no part of our duty here to act as electioneering agents for the purpose of making our own (Milling and election sure. I trust that honorable members will not take anything that I may say in this connexion in any personal sense. I should personally be well satisfied to see -every member of this House returned as a representative in the new Parliament. That, however, ought only- to be after we have taken every means in our power to see that in the grouping of the electorates the electors have an equal voice in the selection of the new Parliament. The Minister appeared to dispose of the proposed divisions in a simple and airy way. He turned to the map and remarked that all the trouble in «relation to the distribution of New South Wales might have been obviated if the Commissioner had started from the east and worked towards the west, and as he made this observation he flourished his hand as if there were absolutely no difficulties in the way. There is an answer in Mr. Houston's report to every criticism of his scheme. The Commissioner did his very best to meet every objection that has been pointed out, and he gives cogent and able reasons why the division he -has made is in the circumstances the best that could be obtained.- He informs us that he has tried to secure community of interest in the far back western districts of , the State, that he has endeavoured to segregate the mining interests of Broken Hill, Cobar, and other places, but that, for reasons which he deals with very cogently, he has been unable to do so. He declares that we cannot secure community of interest in any and every part of the Commonwealth. It was because of these inherent difficulties that we provided in the Electoral Act for variations from the mathematical quota. Are we deliberately to add to these difficulties by foisting upon the distribution old worn-out theories from which it has taken the British Parliament, and those of our own States, fifty years to free themselves ? I regret to see the very scant interest that is, and has been, taken in this matter by honorable members who should be mostly concerned in it. I remember reading a statement made by Disraeli - and no one would suspect that he was a democrat - in which he very- clearly and properly laid it down that democratic rights demanded that there should be an equality of electoral power as the basis of the society in which those rights were supposed to exist. That is a fundamental principle, the repetition of which ought to be unnecessary in a House of this kind. The proposal now before us is deliberately intended to outrage that basis of democratic rights, and to violate it in its most vital part. It outrages the very theory of democracy, as we have known it to exist, at all events, in Australia. What has been said by way of defence of the Government proposal ? I have heard nothing but miserable apologies. I have heard in this Chamber the most abject and miserable excuses for this strange departure from fundamental principles. We are told' that if the Commissioner's scheme for Western Australia were carried, out a few miners in that State - only 250 in number - would be classified with people with whom they have no community of interest. We are told also that there is a slight alteration in one of the electoral boundaries, and that, therefore, the scheme submitted by the Commissioner must be uprooted. Then, again, we are informed that under the scheme some farmers in other parts are associated with miners, ' and it is in vain that we point out that in the divisions to which we are deliberately reverting a- worse condition of affairs exists. Every anomaly that has been pointed out in the new scheme before the House is more than matched by the condition of things in the divisions to which we propose to revert. If honorable members believed that we were reverting to a better scheme I .could understand the introduction of this Bill and the attitude of the stolid majority behind the Government, who are waiting to vote like mere machines without giving any reason for the attitude they have taken up. But the Minister knows that the divisions to which we are going to revert are bristling with more anomalies than are the schemes that have been submitted to us by the Commissioners. In my judgment no question approaching in importance to this matter has ever come before the House. There is no question so important as that relating to the distribution of the political power of a free people. Compared with this all other questions sink into insignificance. Tariffs, if they are wrong, may be set right. Erroneous legislation, no matter what its character, can be rectified. We can remedy mere legislative errors ; but an error in the fundamental principle of the distribution of the political power of a free people may carry us irreparably far, and, much as we should like to do, we may not be able to return to the true position. A free people can always overcome whatever disasters they may have to face. It is impossible, however, for the people to overcome those difficulties if they are no longer free - if we purposely shackle them as it is proposed to do under the old, fossilized system of grouping the electorates to which we are about to revert. The principles of the distribution of political power, once adopted, are very difficult to uproot. Once we allow the idea to gain ground in the Commonwealth that there is a difference in the voting, relationships of people residing in different States, and in different geographical areas, it ' will be hard to dislodge ' it. Now is the time when such a pernicious principle should be uprooted and cast for ever aside as having no place in the relations of this Federal Parliament. An error in this matter may affect the fortunes- of the whole Commonwealth, and may vitally affect the character of a people. These are considerations which it should be unnecessary to emphasize in a House of this character, but many honorable members appear to have deliberately shut their eyes to them. It is because of considerations such as these" that it is necessary for us to protest loud and long against what we regard as the iniquity which is being perpetrated by the Government and against what is unquestionably an outrage upon the free people of the Commonwealth. Mr. HUGHES (West Sydney).- I do not desire to speak at any length upon this question ; but I feel that I cannot allow the third reading of the Bill to pass without making some protest, in common with other honorable members, against this attempt to supersede the schemes of the legally authorized . Commissioners by the powerful method of a parliamentary majority. One can only regret that the Minister in charge of this measure fails to realize the extraordinary inconsistency shown by him. He denies that the majority have a right to- express their views in a constitutional way, and at the same time he forces upon us, and through us, upon the electors of New South Wales the principle of pure majority rule. The Minister for Trade and Customs takes so little interest in this matter, that he has temporarily handed over the charge of the Bill to a colleague, who, I am sure, feels very much out of place. I can hardly understand a man accepting such a. position save under some kind of stress. The Minister for Trade and Customs has handed over his duties to a colleague, and, quite secure in the knowledge that he has a majority behind him, has left the Chamber. He has attempted in a boisterous and extraordinary way to justify his action. I had the pleasure of hearing one of the speeches delivered by him - and it is always a pleasure to listen to the honorable gentleman, because he is invariably amusing, if nothing else - and when it was not really absurd it amounted to an attack upon the leader of the Opposition. The Minister is apparently under the impression that he is destined by fate or some other irresponsible, terrible, and inconsistent power to do a great deal for this country if he only has the chance to do it. This is one of the chances which fate has given him to do something for the country, and how is he carrying out his work ? He selected the Commissioners for the several States, and doubtless he had good reasons for appointing them. But he declares now , when it ought to be, and is apparently, too late to do so, that lie made a mistake in appointing the Commissioner for New South Wales, and that he should have selected another man to do the work. Perhaps the honorable gentleman's experience in selecting Commissioners in days gone by has been different, and has led him to believe that a protest of the right kind will meet with a response more in accordance with his own views. I believe that the Minister made some reference to the framing of the old divisions of East Sydney and West Sydney, to which he desires we shall now revert, and said that the leader of the Opposition and I mutually waited upon the Commissioner who framed those electorates and requested him to re-arrange the boundaries. He knows, of course, that 'that statement is perfectly untrue, I believe he is aware that it is untrue ; but so many incidents which it is very convenient to forget, occurred in those days, that I can readily believe that he may not have any clear recollection of them all. As the assertion made by him is a distinct reflection upon myself, I may be allowed to say that it is not true, and I trust that he will permit his memory, sluggish and uncertain as it is, to be revived, at all events to that extent. I am very much astonished - although my feelings have received so many shocks that there is probably little or no room for astonishment - at the silent and somnolent attitude of honorable members sitting behind the Government. They sit - I should not say like monuments, because I can conceive that there may be some excuse for monuments remaining in one position without evincing any traces of intelligence - but they remain in their seats and say nothing. We cannot believe that they have indorsed the policy of the Government ; but they have agreed to support it by their votes and their silence. One can only regret that party government makes such things possible. Party government has many objections, and these have been urged from time to time against it. I cannot conceive, however, of any more salient example of the deficiencies of party government than the present attitude of the Ministerial supporters. Honorable members are not prepared to defend their position from the hustings. They sit here and say nothing, quite content in the belief that in Victoria, at any rate, little or no attention will be paid to what happens in New South Wales. Thus they hope, with a reasonable prospect of success, to avoid the consequences of their malfeasance. The action of the Government is a blow at the principle of adult suffrage, and even at democracy itself. It has been pointed out that the necessary corollary to adult suffrage is that each vote shall have the same value. The Minister in charge of the Bill, when, by a singular dispensation of Providence, he was, in some measure, leading the Federal campaign in New South Wales, mentioned, among the many things which he had heard from other persons and repeated with the air of one who had just made a discovery for himself, that his objection to the draft Constitution was that under its provisions the vote of one elector in Tasmania would be equal to the votes of six electors in New South Wales. Although the honorable gentleman is not a mathematician the statement was fairly accurate. It set forth the only objection to the Bill which he was able to probe to the bottom and explain to the people. Now, however, without a blush, he openly advocates a proposal which is in direct contradiction to the principle which he then advocated. He proposes to take from the people of New South Wales what he previously declared to be the inalienable right of every free man. He has set aside the Commissioner's report, his reasons for doing so being so trivial that they are unworthy of even passing comment. But what really actuated him is apparent to all. He has behind him a majority which is firm, and unlikely to be affected by anything that may be said by an honorable- member speaking from this side of the Chamber. Those who comprise that majority have a reason for their conduct, and it is perhaps the more powerful because it is one which they can hardly put forward in this Chamber. The Minister, trusting to his majority, leaves the Chamber, and allows the discussion to proceed as it may. I question whether the Treasurer knows enough about the measure to be able to defend its provisions if he were called upon to do so. His reputation for straightforwardness is so good that I feel confident, since he has thrown in his lot as a supporter of the Bil], that he cannot have considered it on its, merits. However, it is the misfortune of all good men to be sometimes inveigled into curious positions, and I shall therefore not say more about that matter. Those who support the measure, however, hardly realize its importance. If the people once get the idea that there is corruption in the adjustment of the electoral boundaries, the reputation of this Parliament, and of parliamentary government itself, will inevitably suffer. The people are confident that if the franchise is extended -without regard to position, status, or locality, the liberties which they have won will be efficiently safeguarded ; but once they begin to suspect that there is a deliberate attempt upon the part of their representatives to so manipulate the electoral boundaries as to deprive them' of their power, the reputation of Parliament will suffer, and the gravest results may follow. The honorable member for Parramatta has pointed Out that if the Government asked us to substitute for the schemes of the Commissioners more perfect ones, little or nothing could be said against the proposal. But, although the Commissioners were specially chosen by the Minister, and appointed by the Government, we are asked to substitute for their proposals the retention of the old divisions, whose glaring inconsistencies may be noticed at a passing glance. It will be seen from the report of the New South Wales Commissioner that, while there are undoubted inconsistencies and objectionable features in his scheme, these are emphasized and accentuated in the arrangement of divisions sanctioned by the. State. That being so, and inasmuch as the wide divergence from the quota allowed by the Act enabled the Commissioner 'to fully provide for the movements of the population from one part of the State to another, about which we have heard so much, I am unable to see why his proposed distribution should not have been approved of. I know that an objection was lodged against the proposed boundaries of the new division of West Sydney, and it was reinforced by a petition which set forth good reasons for an alteration. The Commissioner, however, was unable to give effect to the wishes of the petitioners, not because of any lack of force or relevancy in their suggestion, but because' to do so would have required the alteration of the boundaries of the adjoining divisions, which was not possible. There must be faults in every plan of distribution, but it is inconceivable that Members of Parliament should be allowed to divide the States in order to serve their own interests. No one would dare to suggest such a thing. It is idle to suppose, however, that the majority who support the measure will be affected by the arguments of those who oppose it, nor is the Minister who enjoys their support likely to listen' to what we have to. say. Under these circumstances, I leave it to the people of the country to decide whether we or the Government and their supporters are in the right. 4600 JZF Illawarra FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910 0 0 FULLER, George Mr FULLER - I do not desire to say very .much about the Bill at this stage, but I wish to enter my protest against the action of the Government and those who are supporting them. It is very significant that the honorable and learned member who has just resumed his seat should have declared himself against the proposal of the Government. We know that he is one of the strongest democrats in New South Wales, and one of the strongest supporters of the principle embodied in the Constitution, and in the Electoral Bill, of one vote one value. When we were fighting for federation, and looking forward to the union of the six Australian States into a great Commonwealth, we thought that the Federal Parliament would take its position upon a higher plane than that occupied by the States Parliaments. But I have never known, or heard of, any State Parliament taking such an extreme and stultifying step as that now contemplated. It is lamentable that the first Federal Parliament should practically disfranchise many thousands of electors and deprive a large section of the female voters, who have been only recently endowed with the franchise, of an opportunity to exercise their privilege. 4600 K4E Werriwa 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - As the Bill relates to elections it would be perfectly competent for me to refer to the mode in which the elections were conducted in the earliest days of the Aryan race, but 1 do not propose to adopt that course. I may, however, be permitted to say that never have principles been so loudly extolled and so little practised as by the Government and their supporters. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports, who plumes himself upon being a democrat, has asserted his belief in- one vote one value, but still he is content that the voters in his electorate shall have only two-thirds of the voting power exercised by voters in" other electorates in Victoria. Then, again, how can the honorable member for Bourke, who has no less than 65,000 electors in his division, rest content whilst only 38,000 electors are required to return a representative for Gippsland? In each of the cases referred to there is a difference of between 25,000 and 26,000. If we put these figures into averages, we find that it requires three and a half voters in Melbourne Ports to exercise voting power equal to that enjoyed by two electors in Gippsland. Why do not honorable members advance some reason for supporting the Bill? Is it not dear that they have no reason to advance, and that they hope that in the confusion that will exist at the time of the elections their action may escape notice, and also the punishment which it properly merits? The honorable and learned. member for Bendigo has put forward the extraordinary doctrine that each representative ought to look after his own electorate, and should interfere in no other. As was clearly pointed out by the honorable member for Parramatta, if we were to proceed on that principle we should have seventy-five representatives fighting not to promote the interests of Australia, but to strengthen the positions, of their respective electorates. How can the Minister stand up in any electorate in New South Wales and say that he was instrumental in conferring the franchise upon women of the Commonwealth? I believe that he has gone so far as to boast that women would not have been able to vote at the next elections but for his action. But under the measure now before us he is practically disfranchising them. He has conferred upon them the right to strike out certain names printed upon the ballot papers, but he has denied them the power which should attach to the exercise of that privilege. It is one of the first duties of the Government to see that not only the letter, but the spirit of the Constitution is observed. We have heard many high sounding phrases uttered by Ministers upon this very point, but when it becomes a matter of giving practical effect to the Constitution they are ready to make a wide departure from its true intent and meaning. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports evidently believes that because his constituents are not likely to take any notice of his action in regard to the Bill he can exercise a free hand. If that principle were followed out it would lead to practices which would unfit men for meeting decent people. The honorable member seems to think that he can do what he pleases, so long as he is not found out. That is a very nice position for a professed teacher of morals to occupy. The Constitution provides, in regard to elections, that the quota is to be ascertained by dividing the number of the people in the Commonwealth. That is for the purpose of finding out the number of members to be returned for each State. Then the number of members to be chosen for each State is to be determined by dividing the number of the people in the State, as shown by the latest statistics, by the quota, and if on such division there is a remainder greater than one-half of the quota, one more member is to be chosen in the State. Only four of the States made any provision for the distribution into electorates. In Tasmania and South Australia there were no distributions, and as a consequence every vote, no matter where it was exercised, had exactly the same value. When the divisions were originally made in New South Wales the same principle was carried out to a certain extent, but we have made great progress during the three years which have since elapsed. Two hundred and eighty-six thousand voters have been added to the roll, and yet the Minister desires to preserve the old divisions. On what possible ground can he justify his action ? The report of the Commissioner for New South" Wales has already shown that if the existing divisions are adhered to, fifteen of the electoral divisions of New South Wales will actually contravene the electoral law which was passed last session. Yet not one word of protest has been raised by the Minister. The only consideration which seems to weigh with honorable members is their fear that, as the elections are approaching, it may be dangerous for them to make any change in the existing electoral divisions. There can be no greater proof of conservatism than is afforded by the departure of the Labour Party from one of the chief planks in their platform, and by their voting to bring about the inequalities of the old system. Mr. Houston, the New South Wales Commissioner, shows that in the existing divisions there are 303,000 male electors and 286,000 females- a total of 589,000. In this Bill no provision whatever is made foi' the 286,000 women voters. They are to be absolutely ignored, because the present electoral boundaries are to be maintained. What would have been said of a Commissioner who presented a map containing such gross inequalities 1 4602 KRO PROT 0 0 MCLEAN, Allan Mr A McLEAN - We should have said - " Well done thou good and faithful servant." 4602 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - We should have said that he had done very good work for particular individuals, but that he had entirely ignored his duty to the State. The honorable member for New England spoke last evening of the inequalities which exist between city and country electorates, but he quite forgot the differences which exist between various country constituencies. For example, in the Richmond electorate, which immediately adjoins his own, an elector -possesses half as much political power again as does a voter in New England. Yet the honorable member voted to perpetuate that system. Indeed he even went so far as to attempt to defend it, al though there was s sufficient grace anion gS honorable members to prevent him from so doing. Some of the Victorian representatives in this House bitterly opposed Federation. Their opposition was based upon the fact that under the Constitution there was a difference in the value of the votes of the electors as regards the return of senators. To overcome that objection the advocates of union pointed out that the power of the Senate in respect of Money Bills was, to a very large extent, restricted, so that the people could never be taxed as the result of a combination of the. smaller States. That fact is significant. It shows how much importance was attached to the principle that an equal value should be given to every vote throughout the Commonwealth. Last year the Ministry themselves were strongly in favour of the principle, and hence it was incorporated in the Electoral Act. Their proposals on the present occasion, however, are altogether in opposition to it. If the tactics which they have pursued in connexion with the electoral divisions of the different States are to continue, the sooner we come under a despotism the better. If the ideas which they now champion are to prevail, we shall never obtain a Parliament which represents the whole people. Mr. Houston, in making his report, set forth the preliminary considerations which influenced him in drawing up his scheme of distribution. He said - Before referring to the scheme of distribution submitted, I propose to offer some observations on subjects which came under consideration, either preparatory to or during the progress of the work, and which affected, more or less actively, the final results. He then proceeds to point out that section 15 of the Electoral Act provides how the quota shall be ascertained. [Quorum formed.] Section 16 declares that the quota shall be the basis of the distribution. When Ministers have ceased their conversation I shall resume my speech. 4602 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable and learned member having taken his seat his speech is really at an end. 4602 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - I resumed my seat because of the conversation of Ministers. 4602 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I would point out that, strictly speaking, when the honorable and learned member resumes his seat his right of speech terminated. But as his action was the result of a misunderstanding, I am prepared to allow him to proceed. 4602 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I would point out, sir, that it would have been extremely awkward if. I had remained standing after you had risen. 4602 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I rose because the honorable member sat down, and the question of whether or not Ministers were listening has nothing whatever to do with the Standing Orders. 4602 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I repeat that the quota is the basis of the distribution. Yet in only nine out of the twenty-six electorates in New South Wales has the quota even been approached. The Government proposal constitutes an infringement of the law which ought not to be tolerated by any self-respecting House. I venture to think that a Parliament which pays so little regard to a law which it has enacted is no longer fit to discharge its duties. 4602 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable and learned member must not reflect upon Parliament. 4602 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Then I will say that a Parliament which so persistently ignores its own legislation is not able efficiently to discharge its duties. If the Minister had said that in the multiplicity of the duties of his office it had been impossible to get everything in readiness for this work we might have D understood his attitude ; but no such excuse has been offered. We find that Mr. Houston was absolutely bound down to the quota. He was not allowed to ascertain for himself whether the, quota was correct, but the Minister charges him with having failed to take steps with that object in view. 4603 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I do not, and have not done so. 4603 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - The honorable gentleman made a charge of that character against the Queensland Commissioner. 4603 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I ' did not say anything of the kind. I trust that the honorable and learned member will not misinterpret my statements. 4603 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - The Minister said that the number of electors in that State had not been properly ascertained, and he spoke as if it were the fault of the Commissioner. The Commissioner for New South Wales wrote to the Attorney General to ascertain whether he or the Chief Electoral Officer should ascertain the quota. Sections 13 and 14 of the Electoral Act provide that the Governor-General may appoint one person in each State to make a distribution, but Mr. Houston inquired whether, in addition Co making a distribution, it might not be part of his duty to ascertain the number of electors in New South Wales. That he received a reply from the Department of Home Affairs is shown by the following paragraph in the report which he presented to the Minister : - Your letter of the 4th May last, informing mc that the number of members for the House of Representatives to which the State is entitled was twenty-six, and that it had been ascertained from "the lists of adults deemed to be electors" that the quota was 22.6S4, also, in view of the advising of the Federal Attorney-General (forwarded for my information on the 22nd April last), that, under the Electoral Act, it was not the duty of the Commissioner to ascertain or verify the quota ; and that the ascertainment of the number of electors was the duty of the Electoral Office ; I was enabled to at once proceed with the work of distribution. The Ministry are therefore convicted by their own statements. If the contention now put forward by. them be correct, they neglected to furnish the Commissioner with the correct number of adult persons in each electorate. In spite of the ample time which the Department had to collect, the rolls, it failed to have a list properly prepared. Does that show that any care was exercised in, dealing with these matters ? It appears to me to "be incredible that the representatives of three States should practically combine to support a proposal by the Government which is in defiance of the very laws that we have passed. We are asked to override the provisions of our own Electoral Act. If the Commissioner had presented us with a scheme similar to that to which we are now asked to revert, we should probably have sent it back to him, and reminded him of the provisions of the Act. Mr. Houston has made ample allowance for the movement in population caused by the drought. He brought all the drought-stricken divisions up to the minimum. For instance, the electorate of Riverina, which suffered from the drought, has only 18,862 electors, the minimum being 18,148. la other words the Commissioner adhered as closely as he could to the minimum. Can it be said that' in that case he failed to make the fullest allowance for the drought ? In the .electorate of Darling there are 18,386 electors, or only 238 above the minimum. 4603 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - He wiped out the Darling electorate. 4603 JUJ 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Norman Mr Cameron - But if we had adopted his scheme the electors would still have had the right to vote. 4603 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Quite so. What the Commissioner said in effect was that a miner who resided in Cobar should not have a greater voting power than he would possess if he resided at Temora, or Wyalong, or Newcastle. 4603 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Brown - But the miner was to be associated with the man on the Murray. 4603 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Exactly. It was foreseen that there would be some difficulty in dealing with these large areas, but because a man happens to be working as a miner at Cobar, is he not to be associated with the interests of the district ? The minimum number of votes allowed for any one electorate is 18,148 and the maximum 27,220, and when we find that there is a difference of nearly 9,000 votes between two electorates it is ridiculous for the Ministry to demand that any greater allowances should be made. One cannot fail to be surprised at the action of the honorable member for Newcastle in supporting a measure which provides that the votes of 29,000 electors in the Newcastle division shall have no greater power than have the votes of 14,920 electors in Riverina. 4603 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Does the honorable and learned member think that the Commissioner had any right to include a greater number of electors in the Newcastle division than is to be found even in any of the Sydney divisions ? 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Did he exceed the quota? 4604 KX9 ALP; FLP from 1931 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - He practically reached the quota, but he did not do so in framing any of the Sydney divisions. 4604 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - According to the figures which we have in our possession, the Newcastle division contains the greatest number of electors. 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Newcastle has only eighty-three electors in excess of the number in one of the Sydney electorates. 4604 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - But the honorable and learned member should compare it with the average city electorates. 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - There is a difference of between 200 and 300 votes in some cases. 4604 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - What is the number of electors in the Werriwa division? 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - It is a country electorate, and as such does not just now come within' the scope of my argument. . The number of electors there is 18,851, but the number within the division proposed by the Commissioner is 18,255. 4604 KPM 0 0 MCCAY, James Mr McCay - How many electors are there in Goulburn? 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I cannot give the exact figures, but I believe that there are about 2,700 or 2,800 male electors on the roll, and that the total number of electors, male and female, is between 4,000 and 5,000. The city is large enough to return one representative to the State Parliament, while Werriwa contains more than five State electorates. If the honorable member for Newcastle looks at the figures he will see that at least half-a-dozen of the Sydney divisions are practically as large as the Newcastle division. 4604 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - No ; only three of them contain more than 25,000 electors. 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - At the present time there are over 29,444 electors in the Newcastle Division, while in the division proposed by the Commissioner there would have been only 26,585. The honorable member is voting to place the electors of Newcastle in a worse position than they would be in if the proposed distribution were adopted. What is there about the proposed divisions that makes honorable members so unready to accept them 1 If they were opposed to any alteration of the boundaries of the divisions which they represent, why did they not frame the Electoral Act differently 1 In the first place, they should not have given the franchise to women. The Minister for Trade and Customs has taken a great deal of credit to himself for the extension of the franchise to women, but I believe that you, Mr. Speaker, are really entitled to whatever credit attaches to that course, because of your influence in procuring the adoption by the Convention of section 41 of the Constitution. That section provides that - No adult person who has or acquires a right to vote at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of a State shall, while the light continues, be prevented by any law of the Commonwealth from voting at elections for either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth. There were many members of this House who did not think that the extension of the franchise to women would bring about the marked improvement in political life which the authors of the proposal predicted. We thought that the effect might be rather to add to the strength of the Conservatives than to help the Liberals. But, in view of the. wording of that section, we- felt that it would be extremely awkward to allow the women of Western Australia and South Australia to vote at the Commonwealth elections and not to extend the same right to the women of the other States. The action of the Government, however, practically deprives the female electors of New South Wales of the franchise. I ask the Minister, even at this late hour, to go back on his proposal. 4604 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - We cannot go back. 4604 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Any one who knows the provisions of the Electoral Act must be aware that the proposal of the Government is a retrograde one. They ask us to be not law-makers, but lawbreakers. It is significant that the Minister for Home Affairs has not taken charge of the Bill, which relates to one of his sub-Departments. Perhaps he is not in sympathy with a measure which will have the effect of depriving a large number of electors of their voting power. If so- if the Minister felt that he could not take charge of the measure - he should not have voted for it. I cannot but express my astonishment at the action of the Prime Minister in going behind the principle of the Constitution, that every vote should have an equal value. I was surprised, after hearing what was said about the Queensland divisions, to read the statements contained in the full report of Mr. McDowall. The honorable member for Herbert said that he did not agree with the proposed distribution, and he asserted that certain influences - he inferred that they were evil influences - had been brought to bear upon Mr. McDowall. It appears that, in the first instance, Mr. McDowall had the number of electors in the nine divisions supplied to him verbally by the electoral officer in Brisbane. He considered that it was his duty to ascertain the quota of electors, but, as in the case of Mr. Houston, his mind was disabused upon that point. I presume that he received a copy of the letter from the Attorney-General to the effect that it was not the duty of the Commissioner to ascertain or verify the quota, and that it was the duty of the Electoral Office to ascertain the number of electors. Then Mr. McDowall points out that in making the distribution he considered everything to which he was required to pay regard. The quota for Queensland was 24,678, and he arrived at the margin by dividing the quota by five. The result was 4,936 or, roughly speaking, 5000 votes, which would give a maximum of 29,600 and a minimum of 19,700. Upon that basis he divided the State. He also seems to have made a very reasonable allowance for the country districts, and to have taken into account the fact that a drought had prevailed over a large portion of the State. We find that in the chief city electorate, Brisbane, there are 28,638 electors, whilst in Oxley there are 29,433, and in Moreton 29,077. In some of the very large areas, such as Maranoa, full advantage was taken of the quota. The number of electors allotted to Maranoa was 20,627, to Capricornia 21,500, and to Kennedy, another large electorate, 21,000. Could it possibly be said, under these circumstances, that the Commissioner did not take into account the fact that there had been a drought 1 The alternative to adopting the divisions proposed by Mr. McDowall is to adhere to the existing divisions, which show very considerable discrepancies, particularly in the districts which embrace the tablelands and the coast settlements. These areas are affected in very much the same way as are the more populous areas of New South Wales. It has been shown that in New South Wales fully two-thirds of the women voters reside within the coastal districts and on the tablelands, and the same remark applies to Queensland. The conditions have become entirely changed since the divisions were made, and the provisions of the Electoral Act should certainly be carried out in their entirety. Honorable members are, however, apparently content to depart entirely from the provisions of the Act, and also to disregard the spirit of the Constitution. 4605 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - There is no .provision in the Constitution regarding equal voting power. 4605 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - The principle of one vote one value is embodied in the Constitution. It was specially provided in section 24 that in the event of no action being taken to distribute a State into electorates,, it should be treated as one electorate. Can the honorable and learned member deny that in South Australia and Tasmania every elector enjoyed equal voting power ? 4605 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN Quick - We wish to preserve the State electorates temporarily. 4605 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Temporarily ? How long does the honorable and learned member suppose that members should be permitted to sit in Parliament. The period for which they a re elected under tine Constitution is three years, and it cannot be urged that honorable members should have the power to so arrange matters as to enable them to retain their seats for all time. Why do not honorable members say at once that the Constitution should be amended to provide for the election of representatives for life t The effect of the measure now before us is to as nearly as possible approach that condition of affairs. The honorable and learned member cannot plead ignorance in the matter. He is well acquainted with the provisions of the Constitution, and yet we find that he is among the very first to assist the Government in setting it aside. I do not care to say all I feel regarding the action of the Prime Minister. There are many things which cannot be provided for in a Constitution, such as codes of honour, and codes of morality. But none the less when those intrusted with the interpretation of the Constitution are regardful neither of honour nor morality, it will be a sorry day for those who have to live under it. The Bill is a distinct negation of the Constitution. So far as men can break the law the Government are infringing it. The provision in the Constitution relating to a State being treated as one electorate was inserted after the fullest discussion. It was pointed out that there might be some difficulty in inducing the States to make the necessary provisions for the distribution of the electorates, and the framers of the Constitution made provision ford any such contingency. Is it not absolutely staggering to find the honorable and learned member for Bendigo and the honorable and learned member for Indi, who were among the framers of the Constitution, casting their votes in such a way as to bring about results entirely opposite to those contemplated when the Constitution was framed 1 The Bill is skilfully framed in order to disguise its real object. Any one reading the Bill would never dream that its effect would be to disfranchise 286,000 electors in New South Wales, and something like 100,000 electors elsewhere. What can be thought of the manner in which Members of Parliament must have approached the Minister who framed such a Bill ? What can be thought of a body of men who, simply because they are in a majority and absolutely regardless not only of the Constitution but of the pledges which they gave as law-makers, when they framed their own Electoral Act, meet together, and without a single word of argument turn round find .vote against all that they have previously done? Might we not expect long descriptions in the newspapers of secret meetings, and all sorts of suggestions as to the motives which actuated them? How is it that there has been no debate upon these1 proposals from Ministerial supporters ? Is there a caucus upon the Ministerial side of the Chamber? Do they secretly meet and decide what they shall do 1 It is a singular circumstance that not one of them has assigned reasons for his action. 4606 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - I gave reasons when the resolutions were under discussion. 4606 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - When the resolutions were under discussion the honorable and learned member made a statement which unfortunately was not supported by fact. 4606 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order. The honorable and learned member must not refer to previous debates. 4606 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - At any rate, during the course of the debate upon this Bill the honorable member has not advanced any reasons in support of it. As one of the framers of the Constitution, we might have expected something better from him. It was only reasonable to expect that he would entertain at least a sentimental attachment to that instrument of government, and that at all hazards he would feel impelled to adhere to its provisions. I hold that it is not for us by any back-stairs method to depart from the terms of the Constitution. But I would ask - " Have we not laid down in the Electoral Act the course that shall be followed in connexion with this matter ' Have we followed that course 1 Are we not making the very name of Parliament a by-word in the mouths of the people ? " Things have indeed reached a pretty pass when the law-makers become the law-breakers. Some honorable members attempt to excuse their action upon the ground that they did not agree with the law which was enacted by this Parliament. But I would point out that such an excuse would justify any individual in breaking any law. I resent the suggestion that this Bill has been debated at undue- length. Its second reading was moved only on Tuesday last. Yesterday we went into Committee upon it, and although seventy - five electorates will be affected: by its operation - and those electorates include 500,000 female voters who have not previously exercised the franchise - the report stage was reached the same night. How then can it be urged that there has been any undue delay in its consideration ? I cannot understand the wonderful unanimity on the part of honorable members, opposite. Only a fortnight ago the Minister for Trade and Customs declared that there was ample time in which to refer the distributions recommended by the Commissioners back to those officers for. reconsideration. If that course were adopted he said that there would still be a month to spare. To-day he urges that sufficient time is not available to enable new schemes of distribution to be prepared, notwithstanding that the general election's are still three and a half months distant. The mere suggestion that the Commissioners could not prepare a fresh distribution within that time would be regarded by them as a reflection on their capacity. If the rolls were not in readiness, 'the fault would rest with the Minister who has power under the Act to cause rolls to be printed whenever he so directs. Supplemental rolls may also be issued immediately previous to any general election. . Is there any difficulty in the way of a man who desires to have his name placed on the roll t Have we adopted any intricate procedure which would render it impossible for men to have their names placed on the roll shortly prior to an election ? No. Names may be added Almost immediately before an election. According to the Electoral Act, a man may practically at the last moment hand in his name to the Registrar, and ask to have it entered on the roll, and his request will be complied with. We are told, however, on some pretext or other that balf-a-million electors are to be deprived of the true value of their votes. That fact cannot be too clearly placed before the public. We are to revert to divisions in which, since the last election, there has been an increase of from 15,000 to 20,000 voters owing to the extension of the franchise to women, and as a result of the Government proposal, these women will be absolutely deprived of the true value of their rights. In order to show how thoroughly some of the Commissioners have carried out their work, I shall refer to their reports. Mr. McDowall, the Commissioner for Queensland, has been strongly condemned by the honorable member for Herbert and the Minister in charge of this measure. In his defence, I desire to say that when charges were made against him in this House he at once demanded an inquiry. The Minister, however, refuses to give him an opportunity to put his case before the public until this Sill has been dealt with. Doubtless, when it has been passed he will cause a letter to be sent to the Commissioner, saying that a mistake has been made, and that the Government have full confidence in his integrity. A great injustice has been done to this officer, who appears to have carried out his duty fearlessly and in strict compliance with the law. So anxious was he to be impartial that he first exhibited a rough map of the proposed divisions, and as soon as he found that there were valid objections to it, he caused it to be withdrawn, and made certain alterations. He sets forth in his report that - Two objections and suggestions in writing have been lodged within the thirty days allowed for that purpose in section 18 of the Act. Both these objections were against my proposed divisions of Herbert and Kennedy. Out of the nine representatives of Queensland in this House, only two raised any objection to the scheme. Seven of them were absolutely satisfied with it. 4607 L0Y 0 0 WILKINSON, James Mr Wilkinson - That is not so. I was dissatisfied with it. 4607 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - But the honorable member did not lodge any objection with the Commissioner. The report continues - One objection was from Mr. F. W. Bamford, M.H.R., for the Electoral Division of Herbert as previously constituted. The other objection was from the Cairns Political and Progress Association. The only other communication, in writing in the shape of u suggestion, was from the Cairns and District Electoral League, which is more a letter of approval than a saggestion. Mr. McDowall sets forth in full the letter received by him from the Cairns and District Electoral League ; but before I proceed to read this letter I think we might have a quorum. [Quorum formed.] The letter is really one of commendation, the writer setting forth that - I am directed further to say that, though the present system of divisions is satisfactory compared with the old pro|x>snls, still we think that, as far as this end of the Herbert Division is concerned, the severance of the more distant portions of Woothakata State Electorate would be mutually approved by Cairns and Woothakata, on the ground that our interests clash with theirs ; yet we are aware that Woothakata is, by the present means of communication and general business dealings, so far connected with us as to justify, to some extent, its inclusion in the same division. A letter was also received by Mr. McDowall from the honorable member for Herbert, in which he said - I am taking advantage of the privilege, or perhaps I had rather say, right, accorded to electors to enter my protest against your gazetted map of the re-adjusted Federal electorates of the State of Queensland. He goes on to say that he was not particularly enamoured of the first forecast map of the electorate, principally because of its unwieldiness, and also because of its want of community of interest, an objection which applies with equal force to the new Kennedy boundaries. What reply was made to that objection? The Commissioner was able to tell the honorable member that he had tried the combinations he suggested, but that - There were objections us far as numbers were concerned, to say nothing of the separation of Mackay from the other sugar districts. But, although the honorable member for Herbert took exception to the boundaries of one out of the nine proposed divisions of the State of Queensland, neither he "nor the other representatives of Queensland took exception to the boundaries of the other eight divisions, because they knew in their hearts that they were fair ones, and that they could not substantiate any objections which they might lodge. But although as individuals they were afraid to object to the Commissioner's proposals, they were ready to join with others in this House to get the Minister to propose the disapproval of the distribution. The Queensland Commissioner, in a second letter which he wrote to the honorable member, said - Again referring to your letter of the 9th inst., and my hurried reply on the 13th inst., I have gone carefully into the numbers of voters in the Herbert Electoral Division that you propose, and, as I expected, the excision of the whole of the State Electoral Districts of Mackay and Bowen leaves only 18,243 votes in the Division, and even the addition of Bourke (875) only brings the number up to 19,118. The further addition of the whole of the State Registration Division of Ayr of Bowen (547) which is really more than you propose only brings the number of votes up to 19,065, still under the minimum. This is, of course, fatal to your scheme, as the minimum is 19,742, and these figures must be rigidly observed ; other conditions may be waived, but the maximum and minimum must be adhered to. The Commissioner thought that Parliament, having passed a law, he was bound by it, and that honorable members meant him to comply with its provisions. Even the Minister for Trade and Customs did not, when the map was first published, object to the proposed New South Wales distribution. He thought that it was a perfectly fair one. But he had ,not then gained the courage which, comes from association with others. It was only after consultations in ante-rooms and elsewhere, when it was found that a good many other honorable members were dissatisfied with the work of the Commissioners, that he took the ground that "might makes right." But are all honorable members on that side prepared to assert that a thing is right because the majority are in favour of it t I should like to know what instinct impelled them to come together in regard to this matter It is said that honesty exudes from men ; a very different mo'ral quality must have exuded from those who came together and agreed to stand by this outrage upon the Constitution. But as there are many men who will do wrongful acts and yet will not tell untruths, so while honorable members opposite are prepared to inflict this injustice upon the electors, they will not get up and state, as their reasons for their action, arguments in which they do hot believe, and therefore they will not receive from me that utter condemnation which I should otherwise bestow. But one wrongful act leads to the perpetration of others, and honorable members have sown in this Parliament so fatal a seed that unless the people infuse fresh leaven, in the shape of men who will attend more strictly to what is right, and will do only what is legal, Australia has a bad time before it, because no nation ever flourished whose law-givers ignored the. great principles of truth and morality. Once the fountain head is tainted, the whole stream becomes impure, and disseminates poison wherever it travels. Our action today will create in the minds of the people a contempt of Parliament, and the feeling that Members of Parliament will do anything to secure an advantage for them. selves. No man who has any respect for himself and the institutions of the great country which we all wish to see prosper will give a vote for the Bill. 4608 KIN Hume Protectionist Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I shall not detain the House very long ; but before the debate closes, I wish to make a few comparisons to show that the statements which have been uttered by honorable members opposite have no foundation of fact. I suppose I may take it for granted that those who voted against the motions to disapprove of the Commissioners' proposed distributions were in favour of accepting those distributions. That being so, it ill becomes them to accuse Ministers and their supporters of attempting to deprive either the male or the female electors of the franchise. It ills becomes them to raise their voices in favour of what they are pleased to term one vote one value. I shall refer briefly to the condition of affairs which would have been brought about in New South Wales if honorable members opposite had had their way. I ask honorable members to notice the extent to which the figures can be said to accord with the principle of one vote one value. They are as widely - in some instances more widely - different from those which would be required to insure equal voting power in all cases, as are the numbers of electors in the divisions to which the majority of honorable members are prepared to adhere. That being so, is it not like fighting the air for honorable members opposite to pose as the only champions of the principle of one vote one value, or, as it was previously termed, one adult one vote 1 Honorable members opposite were in favour of accepting a distribution which would have allotted 26,502 electors to East Sydney, whilst the Gwydir electorate would contain 19,983, Darling 18,386, Riverina 18,862, Hume 18,512, Bland 18,587, and Canobolas 18,449. Thus far I have quoted some of the lower numbers. In West Sydney there would have been 24,700, in Wentworth 24,981, South Sydney 25,596, Lang 24,257, Dalley 26,433, Parkes 25,487, and North Sydney 24,662. This was the distribution which the members of the Opposition were prepared to accept. Now let us note the position of affairs under the present divisions, regarding which they have raised such loud complaints. Under the distribution which they were prepared to accept, West Sydney would have had 24,700 electors, whereas in the existing division, according to the latest returns, there are 21,954 electors. In South Sydney there would be 25,596 electors under the proposed distribution, whereas there were 28,764 in the previous division. In Dalley there would be 26,433 electors under the proposal of the Commissioner, as contrasted with 30,097 electors in the existing division. 4609 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Nonsense. 4609 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member says " Nonsense," but I beg to assure honorable members that I am quoting figures which are certified to by the Sydney Electoral Officer. I cannot enter into every detail myself, and I must hold some one responsible for the correctness of the data which I am presenting to honorable members, and these, I presume, are the latest. 4609 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The figures are in conflict with those furnished by the State officials. 4609 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In the Parramatta division, as proposed under the new distribution, there would be 24,494 electors, whereas in the present division .there are 23,891 electors - practically the same number. 4609 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - ;Nine of the divisions are all right, but the rest are all wrong. 4609 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I shall quote the figures for other divisions, and I shall show the small occasion which has existed for the great cry raised against the existing divisions. Illawarra would have 23,370 electors under the proposed new distribution, as against 23,333 electors in the present division. Macquarie would have 22,391 electors under the distribution, which honor able members opposite are prepared to accept, as compared with 18,734 electors in the existing division. Werriwa would have 18,851 electors under the proposed distribution, as against 18,255 in the existing division. Eden - Monaro would contain 19,913 electors if the recommendation of the Commissioner were adopted, as compared with 20,546 electors in the existing division. Robertson would contain 22,652 electors under the proposal which honorable members opposite are prepared to accept, as contrasted with 19,168 in the existing division. Newcastle would have 26,582 electors as compared with 29.444 in the present division. That is the largest of all the electorates outside of Sydney. The Hunter would contain 23,705 electors under the proposed distribution, instead of 24,001 in the existing division. Hume would have 18,512 electors under the new distribution, as compared with, 17,347 in the existing division. Bland would contain 18,587 electors, compared with-17,922 ; Canobolas, 18,449 instead of 17,530 ; Cowper, 21,664 electors, as contrasted with 24,351 ; New England, 23,520, as compared with 23,378 ; Gwydir, 19,9S3, instead of 18,354, and Richmond, 22,314, against 16,897. Now I am coming to the three electorates which we intend to retain in their present form instead of reducing their number to two, as honorable members opposite desire, in order that they may deprive the country of one representative. I shall show the number of electors that would be in these districts, and lean assure honorable members that they are increasing to such an extent that by the time the Revision Court is held there will be little difference between the numbers contemplated under the new distribution and those in the present divisions. In the Darling electorate honorable members opposite were prepared to accept 18,386 electors ; to-day the number of electors stands at 1 5,000. Each day this number is increasing, and there will be little to cavil at when the final returns are received. It has been repeatedly stated that there are only 12,139 electors in the Darling electorate, but I can assure honorable members that, according to the returns which are still incomplete, there are 15,000 electors in that division. In Riverina, under the proposal which honorable members opposite were prepared to accept, there would be- 18,862, whereas there are in the division we propose to retain, 19,234- electors. Under the scheme proposed by the Electoral Commissioner, which members of the Opposition were prepared to accept, the Barrier division was completely wiped out, and, therefore, I cannot make any comparison. The Barrier, which was the electorate eliminated by the Commissioner in order to give an additional representative to the voters in the city, will contain, I am informed, 18,177 electors. In these electorates some further figures than we had before have been obtained, whilst all the others in the list are not new ; but the ones I have given before were based on the previous collection in New South Wales. It still stands as a country electorate, and the country voters have not been robbed of one of the representatives to which they are justly entitled. I intend to publish these figures, together with a number of other returns, through the length and breadth of Australia. An Honorable Member. - Are they made to order ? 4610 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Yes, they are made to order. 4610 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I hope honorable members will take their gruel quietly. I have been subjected to a great deal of abuse, and I have scarcely said a word in reply. I hope, therefore, that honorable members will allow me to refute, in a quiet way, the unjust, unwarranted and unreasonable statements that have been made. - 1 have given a number of the figures relating to the electorates. I admit that I have not received complete lists from the State, but the officers have been furnished with sufficient information to enable me to show that, instead of doing an injustice by adhering to the existing divisions, we shall protect the country electors of New South Wales from the injury which members of the Opposition would inflict upon them. I do not wish to impute motives, although honorable members have not hesitated to level all sorts of charges against me. The fury displayed by members of the Opposition would seem to indicate that they have been strongly moved by party , considerations. It would appear very much as if they had hoped to obtain something to which they were not entitled. I have a list of the number of electors in the State electorates of New South Wales which shows that there is a disparity in many cases of at least two to one. This condition of affairs is due to the action, or want of action, of some of those honorable members who have most strongly denounced the action of the Government, who would not, when in office, allow the electoral law of the State of New South Wales to be carried out and the inequalities adjusted. I have heard some reference made to the discrepancies which exist between some of the Queensland electorates. I find that in Brisbane, under the proposed distribution, there would be 28,638 electors, whereas in the existing division there are 33,057. Capricornia, under the proposed distribution, would contain 21,528, whereas, the number of voters in the existing division is 21,308. In Darling Downs they are willing to accept 23,930, but refuse to accept 23,874 ; in the Herbert they are prepared to accept 28,218, and refuse to accept 24,338 ; in Kennedy they are prepared to accept 21,017, and refuse to accept 18,897 ; in Maranoa they are prepared to accept 20,627, and refuse to accept 16,484 ; in Moreton Ray they are willing to accept 29,077, and refuse to accept 27,103 ; in Oxley they are prepared to accept 29,443,and refuse to accept 31,197; and in Wide Bay they are willing to accept 25,622, but refuse to accept something over 25,000. There are discrepancies I admit, but those discrepancies are not serious. Now, when we examine the Queensland State electorates, we shall find that the differences in their numerical strength are more marked than are those in the electorates of any of the other States. In some instances, an electorate contains four or five times as many voters as does another. Whilst honorable members have been clamouring about the principle of one man one vote and one vote one value, this condition of affairs has existed in the different States for years past to a much greater extent than it will exist in the Federal divisions. I wish also to add that there is no country in the world where the principle in question can be applied with mathematical precision. Discrepancies are bound to arise in localities where the people are settled in large cities, and those distributed fairly over the country. The idea of equal electorates has not been carried out in any part of the world, because it is impracticable. No doubt if it were practicable we should find equally as wise men as are the members of the Opposition who would be anxious to give effect to it. I -desired to quote a few reliable figures in reply to the tirade of abuse which has been levelled against me. I have been viciously accused of having been responsible for delay, of incompetency, and of maladministration. Therefore, I have taken the trouble to obtain, for the information of the House, the dates upon which the' various steps in connexion with this matter were taken by the Electoral Department after the Electoral Act had been assented to. I will deal first with the case of New ' South "Wales. The Royal Assent to the Electoral Act was given upon the 10th October last. Upon the 11th October preliminary steps were taken towards appointing the Commissioner who was to undertake the work of distribution. That was the very day after the Act had been assented to. Negotiations in connexion with the Commissioner's appointment were continued till the 17th November, when a communication was addressed to the Premier of New South Wales, asking for his concurrence in what we proposed to do, and in the methods which we purposed adopting. 4611 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That was five weeks afterwards. 4611 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - If honorable members understood the difficulty which we experienced in getting into line with the States Governments they would agree that no time whatever had been lost. Of course, the honorable member for Parramatta is like his leader - he can do everything with a wave of his hand. He reminds me of the attitude of the leader of the Opposition in reference to the construction of the transcontinental railway. He dismissed all the difficulties surrounding it by exclaiming - " This is level country ; construct the line." The first list of male electors was obtained from the State Electoral Office in December. It was impossible to secure it earlier. In January and February of the present year, as the result of repeated communications, the unrevised lists of female electors were forthcoming. . In March the complete lists of female electors were obtained. Until that information was available the Commissioner could do nothing, and necessarily we had to depend upon the State Electoral Office for it. Upon the 20th April Mr. Houston commenced duty in anticipation of his appointment. Upon the 4th May the tentative quota was furnished. Upon the 28th April Mr. Houston was appointed Commissioner. Then he proceeded With his work. Upon the 27 th May the maps were exhibited. The thirty days during which they had to remain open to the inspection of the public expired on the 26th June, and on the 12th August the report and. maps were received from the Commissioner and laid upon the table of this House. What more could I have done, and how could I have accomplished it more quickly ? 4611 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It is a magnificent exhibition of red-tapism 4611 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have precisely similar information in reference to Victoria, which shows that not a single day was lost in taking the necessary steps. In that case a great many parallel arrangements had to be made. For instance, an agreement had to be arrived at between the Commonwealth Government and the State Government as to the officials who should undertake the collection of the Federal roll. I have similar information relating to Queensland. In the case of the northern State, I had to send an electoral officer there a considerable time before I could obtain an agreement with the State Government to do the work in the same way that it was being done elsewhere, . and to get the rolls collected by the police. The same remark is applicable to Western Australia. Whilst I was upon a visit to that State in February last, I endeavoured to get the State Government to agree to a certain method of collection, but was unsuccessful in so doing. Subsequently, I had to send an -officer to Perth before I could induce the State Government to do the work in the way that I desired. I have similar particulars in reference to South Australia and Tasmania. These I intend to publish. Indeed, in view of all the statements which have been made, I intend to publish the complete details for the whole of Australia, and I will refute every one of the accusations that have been made against me. I have now given the dates of the various steps which it was necessary to take from the time that the Act was assented to till the maps were laid upon the table of this House. Honorable members opposite seem to think that they can talk upon this question for ever. They forget that the time is rapidly approaching when the* Government desire to hold the elections. If they continue their present tactics the Government will not be able to hold the elections for this House in December next simultaneously with the .elections for the Senate. It seems to me as if honorable members opposite are adopting a course of action with some such ulterior object in view. Otherwise, I am at a loss to understand their motives. Only last night I heard a speech by the honorable member for South Australia, Mr V. L. Solomon. I at once consulted the records to ascertain under what sort of a franchise he held his seat in the South Australian Parliament as the representative of the Northern Territory. As -a result, I find that he. did not represent more than one-fourth, or one-third of the number of voters that were to be found in the other State electorates. Yet in his virtuously indignant way he posed as a strong advocate of equal representation, and of the principle of one man one vote, one vote one value. Why did he not champion that principle when he was representing the Northern Territory? 4612 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - The Northern Territory contains 100,000,000 acres more than does the whole of South Australia. 4612 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE -Does the honorable and learned member wish to deal with acres rather than with individuals ? 4612 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - No. But the Act has since been altered in South Australia. 4612 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The principle is exactly the same. 4612 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - It is the same, but it was not so in South Australia at the time that Mr. "V. L.' Solomon represented the Northern Territory. . 4612 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Then it would have been very easy for the Government to have the State divided in such a way as to prevent that discrepancy had honorable members been so anxious to guard the principle of one man one vote. I merely refer to this matter to show how inconsistent is the attitude of some honorable members. They talk about that principle as a great one, and yet they have allowed this condition of things to continue in all the States for years In South Australia the case in which the most extreme discrepancy occurred was as between the Northern Territory and the other electorates. Under the New South Wales Act a margin of one-fourth is allowed either above or below the quota. In that State, I find there are about 10,000 in one electorate, whereas a great many of the divisions contain under 2,000. These discrepancies obtain under a law which some honorable members, who at present occupy seats in this Chamber, refused to . alter, and declined to allow the Commissioners to alter. The whole of the indignation which has been exhibited upon this question is a sham and a humbug, so far ns members of the Opposition are concerned. It suits them to hurl any brick which they can at) the Government. In fact, it is absolutely impossible to do anything to please them. In one breath they exclaim, " Accept these divisions," and in the next, " Return them to the Commissioner." They do not know what they want.- They really want something which they cannot and should not secure. I have to defend the country against their attacks upon it. I can assure honorable members and the country that the Government have not been influenced in the course which they have adopted by any ulterior motives. As far as my own electorate is concerned, the division recommended by the Commissioner would suit me better than does the existing division. But a principle is at stake - the principle that we shall not inflict upon a large number of electors in the western part of New South Wales a grievous wrong because of the abnormal conditions which so recently obtained. One honorable member declared this evening that we broke the law if we touched an Act of Parliament. But we are simply asking Parliament to amend one of it's own statutes. We are taking a proper course, and all these wild assertions that we are committing a crime, which one honorable member said should land me in the dock, have no foundation in fact. We are inviting the House to amend an Act of Parliament, which in its incidence would do a grievous wrong to the people of the community. It has been urged that because the drought was in existence when we appointed the Commissioners, and in fact when the House was dealing with the Electoral Bill, we should have known then that it would extend over a further period of twelve months. But every one knows that after a drought has prevailed in Australia for some time, and has become most acute, it may be expected to break up at any moment. When we appointed the Commissioners, we acted in the interests of all who had been suffering from the effects of the drought, as well as in the interests of the people generally. We fully anticipated that months before the presentation of the schemes of distribution, the drought would have been broken up, and that the western districts of New South Wales would have returned to their normal condition. When we found that our hopes had not been realized - that up to the time of the framing of the divisions the drought had not been dissipated - we determined that some special action was necessary in order to meet the extreme and unprecedented state of affairs which existed. I have read to-night figures relating to New South Wales, which distinctly show that no harm, but rather much good, will result from the course we are taking. That being so, I think the people of this country will be able to estimate at its true worth this great and violent attack upon us by the Opposition and by certain sections of the press. 4613 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - It is an impudent attack. 4613 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I do not wish to use that term, but violent attacks have been made upon us by the Opposition and by the free-trade press of Sydney, but in which I am glad to say the country press of the State has taken no part. I think the people will see that the Opposition, and that Section of the press which has made these charges, are prepared to do anything in order to secure an advantage which they should not possess. Under these circumstances I feel that we as a Government, as well as pur supporters who constitute an overwhelming majority of this House, will receive the commendation and the support of the people for their action in saving them from the course proposed by honorable members opposite. I desire now to say a word or two in reference to the position of the women voters of the Commonwealth. The leader of the Opposition, when at the head of the State Government of New South Wales, promised to take steps to extend the franchise to women, but did not do so, and ever since I took up the question I have been subject to vile attacks on the part of those who are jealous of me, and had not the courage to take the work in hand. We have now reached the culminating point in that attack, and an effort is being made to influence the minds of those to whom I, with the assistance of my colleague and the members of this House, have succeeded in extending the franchise - an extension which has never been granted in any other Federation. A dastardly effort is being made to injure the Government and their supporters in the eyes of the women of Australia, who are now enfranchised for the first time. I am satisfied, however, that the effort will fall very wide of its mark. ' 4613 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - This is a fine display of bathos. 4613 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The leader of the Opposition had not the courage to extend the franchise to women, but many of those who were absolutely opposed to the principle of womanhood suffrage when I took up the question and declared against great odds that this- reform should be carried out are attempting to unduly influence the minds of those to whom the right has been extended. Under our proposal not one vote will be lost to the women of Australia; but if they had been left to the tender mercies of honorable members opposite, they would never have been able to exercise the franchise for the good of the whole community. I have closely followed the results which have attended the enfranchisement of the women of South Australia and New Zealand, and in answer to the contention so frequently put forward, that the women have no desire to go to the ballot box, I would point out that in those colonies from 9 to 10 per cent, more women than men recorded their votes at the elections subsequent to that which immediately followed their enfranchisement. The legislation which has been passed in both those Colonies, is legislation of which the people may well be proud. It is of a humane character, and has done good, not for any particular class, but for the masses of the people. That is one reason why I fought so strongly for the extension of the franchise to the women of Australia. I venture to think that the results which have followed the extension of the franchise to the women of New Zealand and South Australia will attend the enfranchisement of- the women of the Commonwealth- that we shall have better men in Parliament, men who will stand firm to their principles, and who will be prepared to pass socialistic and humane measures, such as have been carried into law in the Colonies to which I have referred. 4613 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I think the debate has taken a new turn, and I move as an amendment to the motion - That the word" now " be omitted, with n view to the addition of the words "this day six months." If the amendment be agreed to, the Minister will . have an opportunity to carry out the announcement made by him with so much vigour, and with such apparent courage, that he intended to publish certain facts to the public of Australia, and it will also enable the Opposition to adopt a similar course before this Bill has become law. It is remarkable that although the Bill has been discussed for several days, the Minister has endeavoured only at the last moment to defend the position taken up by the Government. I intend to show from the report presented by the Commissioner for New South Wales that the position is not what the honorable gentleman would have us believe. 4614 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I think we ought to have a quorum, Mr. Speaker.[Quorum formed.] 4614 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Dalley will proceed. 4614 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I rise to a point of order. I understand that it is a well-known parliamentary rule that when an honorable member quotes any document he must lay it on the table of the House. I ask that the Minister in charge of this Bill follow that rule in order that we may have an opportunity of inspecting the document that he has just been flourishing about the House. 4614 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Standing order 317 provides that - A document relating to public affairs, quoted from by a Minister of the Crown, unless stated to lie of a confidential nature or such as should more properly be obtained by address, may be called for and made a public document. Does the Minister desire to lay the document on the table? 4614 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have already handed it over to- the honorable and learned member for South Australia, Mr. Glynn. 4614 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It is for the honorable member for Parramatta to say what he desires shall be laid upon the table. 4614 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Here is the document setting out the figures which I have quoted. 4614 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - We find that in New South Wales the quota fixed was 22,684, and the Commissioner had a discretionary power to depart from the quota to the extent of one-fifth more or one-fifth less. 'That gave him a range of least 9,000 votes. Under the scheme prepared by the Commissioner the number of electors in the division of East Sydney is 26,502, but in the existing division there are 28,343 electors, or 1,123 in excess of Mr. Houston's maximum. Let us now look at the electorates below . the minimum - a question which more closely interests the Ministry. 4614 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The figures are a deliberate fake. 4614 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I am dealing not with the figures quoted just now by the Minister for Trade and Customs, but with those which appear in the Commissioner's report. Mr. Houston proposed that there should be 18,386 electors in the Darling division. But the division which the Minister wishes us to retain has only 12,139 electors, or 6,000 fewer than the minimum allowed by the Act. 4614 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is not correct. I have just given the figures corrected up to date. 4614 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - At 9 o'clock on the 3rd of September, the Minister, in a frenzied state, laid upon the table what he calls the corrected figures, whereas honorable members for weeks past have been dealing with official documents which contained quite different figures. That is a fresh argument to support my amendment. The Riverina electorate, which is represented by a Government supporter, contains about 15,000 electors, or 3,200 below the minimum, while the division which I represent contains over 30,000 electors ; so that I represent two electors for every elector represented by the honorable member for Riverina. The Minister, apparently because of the statement in this morning's newspaper that the women voters of Albury intend to deal rather severely with him when next he visits that town, has told us to-night that he gave the franchise to the women of New South Wales, whereas he was bitterly opposed to female suffrage at a time when honorable members on this side of the House were fighting for it. His present enthusiasm for the principle is characteristic of a new convert. But to make the principle of one-adult-one- vote effective it is necessary to give effect to the principle of one-vote-one-value, and we are striving to do that so far as it is practicable. The leader of the Opposition is not. fighting for his own life before the electors of East Sydney ; he is pounding out the life of this Government. He resigned his seat to focus the attention of the people of New South Wales upon the tactics of the Government in regard to electoral matters, but while the Minister assures the public of the integrity, honesty, earnestness, and purity of his .administration, neither he nor any of his colleagues is willing to oppose him, and give the electors an opportunity to express their opinions upon the subject. The honorable member has uttered a more severe condemnation of the Electoral Department than has been made by either the members of the Opposition or the press. He told us that for weeks he was dodging between Sydney and Melbourne like a flying pieman, trying to arrange with the State Premier. Is not that an admission of the incapacity and unsatisfactory methods of his Department ? I know that it is not usual for a fight to take place upon a motion for the third reading of a Bill, but on this occasion the Opposition are compelled to emphasize the attitude pf the Ministry in regard to the Electoral Act. We ask that the arrangement of electoral boundaries shall be removed from the sphere of political influence. Although the Government appointed the Commissioners who were instructed to divide the States, and have on every occasion referred to them as the most able men that could be obtained, they in four cases out of six asked the House to disapprove of their proposed distributions. The Minister told us to-night that it is. impossible to arrive at mathematical equality in regard to the electorates, and said satirically that not even the members of the Opposition could do so. I would point out, however, that the Commissioners for Tasmania and South Australia were able to divide those States into divisions whose population differs but very little from the quota. In South Australia, I believe, the greatest difference is about 1,200 electors. In that State, too, it is the more thickly populated districts that have the smaller number of electors, while a country district has the maximum number. The Minister has told us that it is impossible to accept the proposed distributions of New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, and Western Australia, because proper representation is not given to the people of the country districts, and because of the discrepancies between the proposed divisions. But they have in the case of South Australia and Tasmania asked the House to approve of distributions in which the representation given to the country districts is only slightly less than that given to the more thickly populated divisions, and . in the case of the four other States to retain divisions in regard to which the discrepancies are greater than the discrepancies in the proposed distribution of the Commissioners. Although the honorable member characterized the action of the Opposition as a sham, he has not the courage to take up the cudgels in defence of his proposals by opposing the leader of the Opposition on the public platform. We find that over 200,000 electors in all the States have been placed in political bondage by the action of the Government. They have been so handcuffed that, in some cases, five men will be enabled to exercise the same power that is enjoyed by two electors in other localities. All kinds of reasons have been urged by the Government for their adherence to the existing divisions. The drought has served the purpose, but' that has now passed away, and arguments based upon territorial and other considerations have been brought to bear. The Grey division, in the State of South Australia, is larger than the whole of New South Wales, but that vast territory has been granted only one representative. Half the territory of New South Wales contains a population of only 33,000 electors ; but surely it would not be contended that thirteen representatives should be allotted to those 33,000 electors, and that a similar number should be returned by the rest of the electors of the State. Is it conceivable that a territorial basis should be adopted for the purpose of distributing the representation ? Again, in New South Wales, the farmers in one district have not been accorded equal voting power with those following similar occupations in other localities. In some cases two farmers are enabled to exercise the same power that is enjoyed by one farmer elsewhere. The right honorable member for South Australia, Mr. Kingston, who is the natural leader of the Protectionist Party, has been true to his principles, and would not, for the sake of party gain, consent to any manipulation of the electoral law. He held that Parliament should not distribute the electorates. The right honorable gentleman has set for himself a very high standard in public life, and we ask that an equally high standard shall be applied to the distributions. The Electoral Act contemplated that the work of the Commissioner should be subjected to the review of the public. It was provided that his distribution should be exhibited for thirty days in order that objections might be lodged by the . electors. That course was followed, and what was the result ? In Western Australia only five objections were lodged, and, of these, two proceeded from honorable members of this House. Yet the Government refused to accept the work of the Commissioner, which was carried out with almost mathematical precision. In Queensland only two objections were received, one from the Cairns Political Labour League and the other from the honorable member for Herbert. It cannot be urged that the electors of Queensland were not ill i to the necessities of the case, or that they did not appreciate the facilities at their command. It may be assumed that the majority were satisfied with the work of the Commissioner, and yet a majority of honorable members refused to approve of it. In New South Wales the distribution was such that certain Ministers and Ministerial supporters believed that their seats would be endangered. I frankly admit that in all probability the Free-trade Party would have gained one seat, but party considerations should not have interfered with the granting pf equal political power to the electors of that State. The issue should have been left to the ballot-box, and no attempt should, have been made to throttle a large section of the electors because they happened to be free-traders. Only thirty-five objections were lodged in that State, and of these fourteen were received from the electorate of Riverina, which is represented by the strongest supporter of the Government.' It is no secret that that honorable member feared that under the proposed distribution he would lose his seat. Ministers have said a great deal about shams, but have they not been guilty of the shallowest of pretences in the arguments used in support of the course they are following? The Government have sat " like patience on a monument smiling at grief." They have been smiling at the grief of the electors of Australia. The leader of the Labour Party has not taken a very earnest part in the discussion of the Rill. He confessed that he felt himself to be in a very peculiar position. I should have liked to hear him defend the action of the Government. The honorable and learned member for West Sydney, who is a strong and ardent advocate of the rights of labour and of the principle of manhood suffrage, has declared himself opposed to the action of the Ministry. The Minister included him amongst those honorable members whom he has described as shams and humbugs. Will the members of the Labour Party allow any such stigma to rest upon the honorable and learned member for West Sydney ? The Minister appears to me to be a kind of political Macbeth. He stabs, not with official documents, but with a stiletto of newly prepared figures, compiled to-day and laid before us at nine o'clock this evening. In this matter the Government have exhibited an obduracy which surpasses any in my experience. The Opposition merely ask that, if the figures which the Minister -has submitted, are accurate, the maps should be referred back to the Commissioners for a fresh distribution. They refuse to listen to our appeal because they have 200,000 electors in their grip. They will not release those electors, in order that they may properly exercise their franchise at the ballot-box. The forthcoming general elections, w.e are told, will be fought upon the fiscal issue, and the Government desire to' start the battle with the due influence of 200,000 electors throttled. Indeed the Ministry appear to be entirely d'estitute of all feeling in regard to the rights of the citizens of Australia. I am glad to think that this question has not been fought solely by the representatives of_ New South Wales. We have had the assistance of the representatives of South Australia and Tasmania and of a representative from both Western Australia and Queensland. The opposition to this measure has, therefore, been of a national character. I hold that it will be the first duty of the new Ministry, which must shortly come into power, ,to order a fresh electoral distribution of the four larger States. I believe that the people of Australia are being sacrificed to the design of Ministers. The first work of the new Ministry, I repeat, must be a redistribution of seats. Immediately that work is completed, a fresh election will, have to take place. Thus the Government are piling up the cost of two elections as the result of their dereliction of duty. I am surprised, indeed, that the Labour Party have not been foremost in fighting for electoral reform and purity. That party must admit that in their organization- 4616 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Is the honorable member referring to the " steerage " party I 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - It appears that during the recess the leader of the Opposition referred to a certain section in this House as the " steerage " party. Let us suppose that he meant the worst construction which can be placed upon that remark, does that constitute sufficient reason for the sacrifice of an important principle t 4617 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - No ; but we accept the insult on behalf of the honorable member's party. 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - Then, let it be known to labour throughout Australia that the honorable member for Kennedy cares nothing for principle, but much for the approbation of an individual. Evidently he is prepared to sacrifice the principles of the Labour Party because the late leader of the Opposition described that party by a term which he regards as offensive. The Labour Party came into existence in New South Wales twelve years ago, and to their honour be it said that one of the main principles for which they fought was political purity. As a Radical I ask those honorable members to assist us in preserving the purity of the franchise. As far as I am personally concerned, the existing electoral boundaries of Dalley suit me infinitely better than does the division which was recommended 'by Mr. Houston. 4617 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - The Opposition has an alliance with the Federated Employers to kill the Arbitration Bill. 4617 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Those gags may be good enough for Northern Queensland, but they will not work here. 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I hold that we are fighting for a big principle. I deny that the discussion upon this measure has been unduly protracted. Its second reading was moved only on Tuesday, and it passed through the Committee stages on the following day. Had the Government deferred its third reading till Tuesday next, by which time Mr. Reid would have returned, probably these protests would not have been raised. If the Minister for Trade and Customs wishes to clear his character, which he alleges has been besmirched, I ask him to defer the further consideration of this Bill till next week, so that the leader of the Opposition may have an opportunity of replying to the figures which he has submitted. The honorable member for Kennedy has said that members of the Opposition are the ready tools of the Employers' Federation. I should like any one to accuse me of being the tool either of the Employers' Federation or of the employes. 4617 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - It is another organization of which the honorable member is the tool. 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I am not the tool of that organization either. I do not attempt to please both sides. The organization referred to knows me as fairly upon that' question as does the honorable member upon this. Whilst the honorable member for Macquarie was speaking of the Bendigo division this afternoon, the honorable and learned member for Bendigo interjected - "You had better keep your nose out of my electorate." That is a nice position for such a distinguished federalist to take up - the author of the Annotated Constitution of Australia. The honorable and learned member boasts of his Federal theories, but his ideas are as provincial as those of an alderman of the smallest country town. We are not here as the representatives of any one State or decorate. We are supposed to represent Australian interests, and an elector from the Gulf of Carpentaria or from Port Augusta or Tasmania or Port Darwin has as much right to consider that he is represented by the honorable and learned member for Bendigo as has any elector in that constituency. I should not have spoken so long except for the attack of the Minister upon the members of the Opposition. Personally I have not used any epithets concerning the Minister or any other member of the Government. 4617 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Hear, hear. The honorable member has been very decent. 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - Perhaps the honorable gentleman thinks I have been decent by accident. 4617 KZV 0 0 RONALD, James Mr Ronald - No ; by misfortune. 4617 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - It seems to me that the honorable member who interjects, and others who take the same views as he does, are by no means decent in electoral affairs. It is said that the electors do not worry about this matter. They have enough to worry about in earning their own living and paying the taxes and the salaries of Members of Parliament all over Australia, without troubling about the details of an electoral scheme. . The honorable member for Melbourne Ports tells us that he has not heard a word of protest from any of his constituents against the policy of the Government. I do not suppose that there is a single member of the House who has had a body of electors waiting upon him with reference to the subject. But it is our duty as representatives of the people to protect their rights. We are here to look after their interests. When the electors wake up at the election, and find that five men who deposit their votes in one part of the country have only the same voting power as two iu another electorate, they will realize where the sham and the humbug come in. The Minister in charge of this measure, poses as a champion of the women. He must know that there are some representatives of New South Wales who, like myself, fought for women's franchise in that State for years before he dared to touch the question. I have known the honorable gentleman during the last four years as an opponent of women's suffrage; but I ask him now as one who has the credit of arming the women with a vote, to make those votes effective. He must know that the discrepancies that occur between the constituencies arise almost solely from the addition of females to the rolls. It is only natural that the larger number of women should be found in the greatest centres of population. In the towns and cities the proportion of women exceeds the proportion of males, and therefore the women's vote will be much heavier in the large centres. Why should not the votes of these women be made effective? The argument with regard to the necessity for giving a greater power to electors in the country because of the difficulties under which they vote is worthless, because it is obvious that the thirty-nine powers which are committed to this Parliament under the Constitution, affect all classes of the community equally. The honorable and learned member for Bendigo, as a student of the Constitution, is aware that there is no individual in any country place who is more affected by any legislation which we may enact under those powers than is any individual in the cities. Before long the fight that has taken place in this House over this question will be renewed in the face of the electors. Honorable members opposite will then be called upon to justify their votes, and to explain why for personal and party reasons they are seeking to perpetuate the inequalities that at present .prevail. I do not say that the Minister for Trade and Customs is supporting this proposal to' suit his own interests. He tells us, and I believe him, that the division proposed by the New South Wales Commissioner would suit him as well as the olddivision. 4618 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Better. 4618 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - But I think that the Minister as a party leader has succumbed to the advances of certain members who thought that their seats were in danger. That is the true explanation of his attitude. The Minister is well known to be a strong advocate of the interests of his supporters ; and in a weak moment he has allowed himself to be made the instrument of their wishes. It is significant that the majority against us last night was one of thirty. The number thirty brings toone's mind the title of a comic opera, that was staged a little while ago. I will not believe that the thirty voted according to their honest conviction, but that is only another reason why this matter should be removed from the political arena. I believe that whatever Ministry comes into power after the elections, even though it should be a Reid Ministry, their first work will be to redistribute the electorates upon a proper basis. I believe that when the public of Australia consider dispassionately what has been done, and apart from party political feeling, they will demand a pure electoral system. They will demand that this work shall be taken away from the politicians, and they will insist that the electorates shall be divided by a responsible and impartial officer. If the electorates are so divided, whether I am an elector of Tasmania or of Queensland, I shall stand before the law with equal power. The Minister will know the meaning of the amendment I intend to move. He knows that during the discussion he has presented us with a fresh lot of figures. 4618 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member must know that that is not correct. I have not presented fresh figures, except in respect of three electorates. 4618 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I have referred to the figures which the Minister used. 4618 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I used both sets of figures, those given previously, and those obtained within the last day or so, and with which I was furnished to-night. 4618 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - Then I must fall back upon the figures, though I had intended to conclude my remarks. I remind honorable members that the quota for New South Wales, 22,684, was provided by the Minister for Trade and Customs. The- Commissioner had no power there. He did not manufacture his own quota, nor did he get it from the humbugs and shams on this side of the House, or from the quiescent Labour Party, but from the Minister for Trade and Customs. Now the honorable gentleman tells us that the Commissioner's figures are wrong, and, if they are, it is the Minister who has led the Commissioner -astray. That is but another proof of the honorable gentleman's incompetence. Under the law a margin of one-fifth above or below the quota is allowed, and that gives 27,220 as the maximum for any electorate and IS, 148 as the minimum. Now let us see how the figures work out for the various representatives of New South Wales in this House. I find that in the case of East Sydney, the political home of the leader of the Opposition, the number of electors under the old division that is now being forced upon us was 28,343. Under the Commissioner's division the number would be 26,502. The quota being 22,684, the Commissioner's figures show nearly 4,000 in excess of the quota. If I take my own electorate of Dalley, the number of electors, according to the division submitted by the Commissioner, would be 26,433, and under the old division there were 30,097. Honorable members will see that, under the old -division which is now being forced upon us, the number is not only up to the maximum allowed by the Act, but is actually over 5,000 above it. I now take the division of Hume, represented by the Minister for Trade and Customs himself, who is going to publish the whole of these figures to show his honesty of purpose in this matter. The -division of Hume, as proposed by the Commissioner, would contain 18,512 electors, ana as the minimum is 18,148, honorable members will see that in the honorable gentleman's electorate there would be only -about 300 above the minimum. 4619 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is according to the Commissioner's division, which I thought the honorable member was prepared to accept. 4619 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - That is according to the Commissioner's division. I now take the division which the Minister desires to force upon the country. The old division of Hume, [ find, contained but 17,347 electors, which honorable members will see is considerably below the minimum of 18,148. "So that, while the honorable gentleman -would represent a division containing 17,347 electors I should have to represent a division in which there were 30,097, and I should have to carry 13,000 electors more than the Minister for Trade and Customs. I hope that when the Minister is publishing these figures to the world he will also publish the fact that he has said that he does not believe in one man one vote and one vote one .value, but that in his opinion electors in country electorates should carry more weight than those in city electorates. 4619 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is what I never said. 4619 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - -I put it to honorable' members that that is what the Minister said. 4619 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I said there should be exactly the same voting power if we could arrange it. 4619 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - The honorable gentleman now says that the voting power should be the same if we could arrange it. We have undoubtedly gained something by the three days' debate. A few days ago the Minister told the Victorian members that he believed that the country and city electorates should not be on an equal footing. 4619 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did not say that. 4619 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - At any rate, the Minister said that preference should be given to the country electorates. Now he tells us that the city and country electorates should be as nearly as possible alike. 4619 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - When they can be properly regulated, which they cannot be in a sparsely populated country. 4619 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - If that be so, why did the Minister recommend the House to accept the Commissioner's division in South Australia, where there is a sparsely populated electorate called Grey, which is more extensive than the whole of New South Wales. We know that South Australia returns opponents to the Ministry ; and the question arises whether that is not the reason the Commissioner's report was accepted in the case of that State, and in the case of Tasmania and not the case of the other States ? The Ministry have given the Opposition the best possible cry for a political campaign, because the franchise is being tinkered with and 200,000 electors are being placed in political bondage. No doubt to-morrow the Minister will charge the Opposition "with prolonging the debate; but if ever there was an earnest battle fought in Parliament, it is the battle over this Bill. It is observable that Mr. Kingston, a member for South Australia and lately a member of the Government, takes a similar position to that assumed by the Opposition, and the proposals of the Government are opposed by representatives from all the States. It cannot be said that the battle which the' Opposition are now fighting is in the interests of the leader of the Opposition. That right honorable gentleman would have been very effective in this debate, but he realized that the attention of the people of New South Wales and of the Commonwealth generally could be more pointedly attracted by an election to the injustice which is being attempted by the Government. There is no fear of the result of the election which our leader is now fighting ; and I ask honorable members to support the action of the Opposition by voting for the amendment which I propose. I trust that this question will not be treated by the press on party lines, because it is the duty of the press to expose any action of a Government of which the people of the country would not approve. If the press of Australia does not believe in one man one vote and one vote one value, let it oppose the principle. It is, in many instances, the duty of the press to direct and mould public opinion, and the elector who has not time for politics expects the respectable journals to fight the battle for him. In matters affecting the franchise and the electorates Parliament ought to be above suspicion, because if the source of law is polluted we cannot expect the dictates of the people to be carried out. The people have a right to clearly and honestly express their political faith, and that cannot be done under the distribution proposed by the Government. As has already been pointed out, a constituency with 12,000 electors returns a supporter of the Government, while another constituency with 32,000 electors returns a member of the Opposition. If my own party were in power and introduced a similar Bill, I should take exactly the stand I am taking now. The supporters of the Government broke their silence tonight only when the Minister rose and in a mock heroic speech threw before us a lot of figures ; and I appeal to those honorable members to say whether, as representatives of the people, they can possibly approve of the action of the Government. The Minister knows the motives which influence some members to reject the recommendations of the Commissioners. I now appeal to the Government, even at this late hour, to allow the third reading of the Bill to stand over until Tuesday next, in order that the leader of the Opposition may have an opportunity to reply to the criticism of the Minister, and his declaration that honorable members on this side of the House are shams and humbugs. Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta). - I rise to say a few words on the amendment moved by the honorable member for Dalley, and supported by him in a very interesting address. I thought that I had made my last speech on this subject for the present, but the Minister has presented an entirely new edition of figures, in respect of which I find it necessary to say a few words. The honorable gentleman has been challenged for over a week past to obtain a set of figures upon which the authorities are agreed. He has to-night placed before the House a document containing another set of figures to which there is no signature. It simply bears the initials of some officer in the Department for Home Affairs. Why is it that Mr. Lewis's signature does not appear on so important a paper ? ' Why, also, is it not signed by the head officer in the State Electoral-office, whence the figures are derived? Are these officers at variance ? Is there something which makes their relations not as cordial as they ought to be 1 Why is the Minister unable to obtain both from the State and the Federal electoral officers a set of figures which could be accepted as authoritative ? Until we have a set of that description, I shall decline to take the slightest notice of the multitudinous figures which are issuing from the Department for Home Affairs. The fact that figures are being issued and corrected so frequently by the Department does no credit to it. I could not help thinking, while the honorable gentleman was making his bold defence, that it constituted the severest condemnation of the Department, and of himself as the Minister responsible for it, that had ever been heard in this Chamber. I should like the newspapers to publish the statement made by him just as it fell from his lips. I should like them to show the public exactly what a Department can do when it desires to give an exhibition of red-tape. The Minister told us that a certain communication was sent to Sydney, that five weeks later another communication was sent to the Premier of New South Wales to ask him to permit the Commissioner to undertake the work of distributing the State, and that after nearly six months had elapsed the Commissioner got to work. Did those honorable members who cheered the speech made by the Minister stop to' think that all this work might have been done in one week-end -visit to Sydney ? Did they stop to think that an interview of a few hours' duration would have accomplished all that was done by correspondence extending over a period of five months? There has never been a more shocking exhibition of departmental red-tape than that put before the House this evening by the Minister. He told us, moreover, that he had to send his officers to Brisbane, and that he experienced difficulty in obtaining State officials to undertake this work. We have to remember, however, that the officers of the Department for Home Affairs were appointed two and a half years ago. Why is it that it was not until after the passing of the Electoral Bill that these negotiations were entered into? Why was not something done in anticipation of the passing of that measure? We are told that the. Commissioner for South Australia actually completed his work before he was appointed by the Minister. He believed that he was likely to be appointed, and he lost no time in the preparation of his scheme. We hear of no such zeal in the Department. The honorable gentleman had ample opportunity to prepare for this work, so that as soon as the Electoral Bill became law the officers could complete their duties in a very short time. Instead of that, it was not until the Bill had become law that they began to enter into the difficult and prolonged negotiations of which we have just heard. If the honorable gentleman had employed some of his political enemies to visit his own Department with condemnation, they could not have done so more completely than he has done to-night. What do the figures amount to which he has presented to us? He said, for instance - and again he was cheered by his supporters - that there was a difference of 6,000, 7,000 and 8,000 between the number of voters in certain divisions, and he asked, " What is that to make so much noise about?" In the case of the Richmond division there is a difference of 6,000 voters. It is a difference of about 40 per cent, between the old and the proposed new division, and when the honorable gentleman declared it to be nothing, his supporters cheered him to the echo. To them a difference of 40 per cent in the voting power of the people is of no importance. When they are compelled to clutch at straws of this description we plainly see the condition at which they have arrived. There has been no drought in the electorate of Richmond. The people of that division have never had a better season than that experienced by them last year. There, drought is unknown. No other part of New South Wales has a better rainfall, and certainly the electorate comprises a most prolific soil. The division, therefore, is one that could have carried a larger number of electors. This is the case which the honorable gentleman presents to the House, and the Government supporters cheer him when he shows that there is a difference between what we contend for and that which the Government propose of 40 per cent, of the total number of electors. The Minister could palm off anything on blind partisans. Therefore when he referred to differences between divisions of 6,000, 7,000, and 8,000 electors, his supporters cheered as if the differences were merely units instead of thousands. This is about the sixth set of figures which he has placed before the House, but it is absolutely worthless, and should not be taken notice of. If it is to be distributed throughout the country, and to follow us round Australia, like Nemesis, we may make ourselves happy in the thought that the Minister's defence of his violation of the true principles of responsible government is a very poor one. 4621 JSM Canobolas 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - I did not in tend, until I heard the speech of the Minister for Trade and Customs, who, to-night, presented to the House an amended return, to say anything on this matter. It is to the statement of figures therein disclosed that I intend to confine my remarks. The Minister claims that these new figures prove that the retention of the existing divisions will more nearly give effect to the principle of one-vote-one-value than will the adoption of the divisions proposed by the Commissioner. Personally my views on this subject are uninfluenced by party considerations. What I desire is to see the principles of the Electoral Act honestly and fairly administered. Therefore, if the Minister can satisfy me that what he has said is correct, I shall have no hesitation in supporting his proposal. It is only reasonable, however, that the Government should consent to an adjournment of the debate to enable honorable members, who have hitherto been giving their attention to other data which we were led to suppose were fairly correct, to examine the figures now placed before us, so that we may be in a position to say whether the contention of the Minister is a right one. 4622 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I shall certainly not, on any account, agree to an adjournment of the debate. 4622 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr BROWN - The Minister in refusing to consent to the adjournment of the debate places us in an awkward position. Before I can agree to support him, and thus stultify my previous votes, I must make certain that I shall be justified in doing so. Personally the retention of the present divisions would suit me better than the adoption of the Commissioner's proposed distribution, because the Commissioner proposed to add a very large territory to an already large division which it takes me a considerable time to get round. I wish, however, to stand by the principles that I came here to support. Therefore I say that if the Commissioner's proposed distribution is not a reasonable one, it should be returned to him, or, if the Minister thinks that he is incompetent, the matter should bs referred to another Commissioner who will be competent. Surely a competent man can be found, if not within New South Wales, within the Commonwealth. No one pretends that the quota must be strictly adhered to, and the Act itself allows a departure from it to an extent not exceeding one-fifth more or one-fifth less. . The Minister, however, proposes to amend the Electoral Act, and the figures originally submitted to us show that the retention of the present divisions would. mean the creation of greater discrepancies than would occur if the Commissioner's distribution were adopted. Now at the last moment, however, he has come down with a new set of figures, which he tells us show that the provisions of the Electoral Act will be best complied with by the retention of the present divisions. I am the representative of a country district, and my sympathies are more with the country than with the city. I should prefer to see greater representation given to the country, if it could be fairly and justly granted ; but principles are principles, and, to my mind, every vote' should have an equal dilue, whether it be exercised in the city or in the country. My sympathy for the country must give way to my regard for principle. The figures which the Minister has presented to-night, and the claim which he has based upon them, are matters of considerable importance to me, and he places me in a very awkward position by refusing to afford reasonable time for investigation. If the Minister can satisfy me that, by maintaining the existing divisions, we can more closely adhere to the vital principle of the legislation which we have passed than by adopting the proposed new distribution, I shall not hesitate to follow him. Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN (Wentworth). - I understand that certain fresh figures have been furnished by the Minister, and I think that the debate might be adjourned in order to permit of these returns being studied. I find that no one really understands them. 4622 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The figures, except so far as they relate to three electorates, have been before honorable members for the last fortnight. 4622 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - I understand that they show that there are really no great discrepancies between the distribution proposed by the Commissioner and the existing divisions. 4622 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That has been the case all along, except in regard to three electorates. 4622 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - If the figures are so close, why should we resort to an illegal act? There is no ground for the career of political bucaneering upon which the Government have embarked. It is becoming more and more clear that we are drifting back to' normal conditions, and that practically there is very little difference between the two sets of divisions. If there be so little difference, why should we resort to absolutely unconstitutional action, and lay ourselves open to the charge of practically emasculating the Electoral Act ? We have had one set of figures after another, and I do not think that any one can possibly understand them. It is, however, apparent that there is practically nothing to be urged in favour of retaining the old State divisions. 4622 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - They are better than the new ones. 4622 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - But we are approaching more and more closely to the point at which there is little or no difference. 4622 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr Thomson - But there is a . difference. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - Yes, but the fact from which we cannot escape is that it is now proposed to practically annihilate an Act based on the principle which we all avow, that Parliament shall not attempt to interfere with the distribution of the electorates. We have declared that that work properly belongs to an unbiased Commissioner, and nothing but overwhelming proof of the absolute unfairness of his distribution could justify any interference on our part. Honorable members seem to have become possessed of the idea that owing to certain abnormal conditions, the results of the distribution would be unjust to some sections of the electors, and that if the existing divisions could be retained they would have a better chance of election. That is the plain, candid, and brutal truth. 4623 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger - I rise to a point of order. I desire to know, Mr. Speaker, whether the honorable member is in order in imputing motives to honorable members. 4623 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I must ask the honorable and learned member for Wentworth to withdraw the expression. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - If I have made any imputation which affects the conscience of the honorable member, I withdraw it. In a matter of this kind we must look for guidance to the Executive Government. The Minister has brought up return after return, and has overwhelmed us with information. 4623 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The complaint has been that I have not supplied sufficient information. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - The Minister has supplied it in his own way, and in such a form that it could not be verified. Everything tends to show the necessity for delay, and I think that the Minister might very well allow time for the consideration of his latest statements. 4623 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The figures which I have quoted this evening are not new, except so far as they relate to three divisions. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - Then, why were they presented ? 4623 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Because I wished to compare the number of electors in the present divisions with those in the divisions under the proposed new distribution in order to show how little cause for complaint existed. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - That is exactly the position taken up by the Opposition. There is really very little difference after all on their own showing between the two sets of divisions. What we complain of is that the Government propose to emasculate the Electoral Act. 4623 KIN PROT; IND from 1910 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Never mind about that ; we are amending it. 4623 L2G 0 0 MCMILLAN, William Sir WILLIAM McMILLAN - The Act is not in our own hands. In fairness to the people of Australia we gave up the power to fix the boundaries of the electorates, and decided that that work should be performed by an independent Commissioner. We are now told that there is very little difference between the proposed distribution and the existing divisions, and yet Ministers are proposing to strangle the principle contained in the Act, and are proving recreant to the trust which they hold on behalf of the people of Australia. Now that the Minister will not consent to an adjournment, now that our reasonable requests have been refused, I do not propose to continue the debate any longer. We have now this principle announced - and it is a fine climax to the whole affair - that there is little difference between the Commissioner's distribution and the original arrangement. And yet the whole basis of this movement has been in the first place a denunciation of the Commissioners for their work, and in the next place a statement, repeated time after time, that it would be absolutely unfair to the people of Australia to allow the new divisions to operate. The Minister has practically condemned himself out of his own mouth. He has to confess that, after having solemnly agreed to intrust to independent persons the settlement of the boundaries of the different electorates, there being', on their reports, practically no difference between the new distributions and the old, he still insists upon -defying the law. And for no other reason, so far as I can see, than to serve the political purposes of a party. We now wash our hands of the whole affair, and cheerfully await the verdict of the people on what I think has been one of the greatest constitution?.! outrages that have ever been known to be perpetrated in a British Parliament. 4623 KW6 North Sydney 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - We have arrived at an extraordinary position. Although the Minister has told the House to-night that there is very little difference between the old divisions and the divisions proposed by the Commissioners, yet he has been attempting for a fortnight to reject, as improper and unfair to the people of Australia, those very divisions. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes ; because I was not going to allow a country electorate tq be cut out in two or three of the States. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The Minister now makes use of another extraordinary expression of policy and of motive - that after inducing the Parliament to pass an Act which provided for representation fairly in proportion, at any rate, to population, he is not going to allow a country electorate to be cut out. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Under improper and abnormal conditions. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - We have heard all about these improper and abnormal conditions. We were asked by the Minister to decide this question on the figures which he furnished, and yet he now attempts to reject them as absolutely unreliable. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Which ? 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The figures which the honorable gentleman, furnished to the Commissioners, and the figures which he laid before the House at the different stages to justify the rejection of these proposals. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have not. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The honorable gentle man has got fresh figures to-night. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have hot, except in the case of three electorates. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - What is the use of the honorable gentleman saying that he has not, when in the very next breath he says that he has as regards three electorates 1 It shows that from first to last the House has been asked to decide on insufficient data an important question affecting the rights of the people and its own honour." What are the figures which the honorable gentleman has, how obtained, and what do they show t They simply show that in the case of three electorates some 10,000 persons have been found by the new collection to be qualified for addition to the rolls. 4624 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If that is the new collection ! 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It was given to me, and signed by the officer. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - We are accepting the Minister's statement. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - And I am accepting the statement which was initiated by the officer. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON -With those 10,000 persons added, the electorates concerned have, under the Commissioner's division, got more than a full representation. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No ; one of them is cut out under the Commissioner's distribution. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - But the divisions are entirely different. The exact boundaries of the Darling, Riverina, and Barrier electorates are not maintained. The Commissioner has not cut two electorates out of those three electorates, but there has been an interchange of boundaries with other electorates. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes ; and one has been left out. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The new collection only shows that there are presumably 10,000 persons more in those electorates than there were according to the figures which the Minister first presented. The analysis which we made previously shows that with those 10,000 persons there is more than a full representation proposed by the Commissioner's distribution. It must be remembered that we have only the results of the late collection in regard to those three electorates. It has also affected largely the number of electors in all the other electorates of that State. Lang electorate was reported to comprise 32,000 electors, but according to the Electoral Officer in Sydney the number is now 35,000. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have tried to obtain those figures, and cannot get them. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - I am only giving the figures as they have come from the Electoral Officer, in the same way as the Minister's figures have come from him. 4624 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No, they have not. 4624 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - North Sydney is said to have 1,200 additional electors. We are now asked to consider the divisions with three electorates collected on the new basis, and every other electorate in the State collected on the old basis. It is astonishing to me that honorable members, before taking the serious step which they propose to take, have not demanded figures which the Minister and the officers can substantiate in connexion with not merely three electorates, but every electorate in the State. I would point out that with the new figures the discrepancies are hardly altered. The Minister has said that they bring the divisions nearly into line with the proposals of the Commissioners. 4625 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - They have been that all the time. 4625 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Nothing of the sort. "We still find that Richmond has 16,000 electors ; New England between 23,000 and 24,000 electors ; and Hunter 24,000 electors. We find that other electorates have up to 35,000 electors by the new collection, but only 31,000 and 32,000 by the old collection. The Commissioner's distribution does not largely increase the number of electors in some country electorates such as Canobolas, Bland, and Hume - it brings them slightly above the minimum - but it largely reduces the number of electorates which are far in excess of the minimum. There is nothing in his new discovery that does not substantiate every word that has been uttered by honorable members upon this side of the House. We were quite willing to concede what the Commissioners have recommended. But now, because some -.figures have been received which seem to substantiate the increase in three electorates, but which do not raise the . numbers an certain electorates to anything like the proportion which obtains in others, we are asked to say that the rejection of ' the Commissioner's divisions is a right and proper act. 4625 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - The House has already rejected those divisions. 4625 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - We have rejected the divisions recommended by the Commissioners under the provisions of the Electoral Act. That simply means that the schemes recommended by them shall be again referred to them for reconsideration. 4625 KPX 0 0 SAWERS, William Mr Sawers - That would mean chaos. 4625 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - Whose fault is that? 4625 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It is the fault of the Opposition. 4625 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - The Minister has approached as closely to accuracy as we can expect him to do in that statement; but the fact remains that it was he who had the entire control of this business. He has had it in hand for twelve months, and has produced a state of chaos that is anything but creditable to himself or to the Electoral Department. The Opposition have from time to time pointed out to the Minister that he was losing his opportunity to carry out the provisions of the Electoral Act, but he has always rejected our suggestions as unwarrantable. Now that our predictions have been realized we are in the disgraceful position of being unable to carry out the terms of our own Act. I understand that the Minister, with all these sins upon his shoulders- 4625 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - They weigh me down terribly. 4625 KW6 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - That is the worst feature of the business. The Minister does not to-night feel the burden of his neglect. ' He has used some very strong language in reference to the Opposition - in fact, I think that he exhibited great audacity. I believe that even his supporters will recognise, irrespective of whether or not they give the Opposition credit for resisting these proposals, that neither honorable members- upon this side of the Chamber nor upon the other are responsible for the abate of affairs which has created the necessity for the measure which is under consideration. In attacking the Opposition, the Minister, with wonderful audacity, has failed to remember his own shortcomings in having brought about the existing deplorable condition of things. I should be perfectly satisfied, no matter how the final figures might affect individual members or parties, with a division in accordance with the terms of the Act. Having passed a measure which we believe embodies the will of the people and best secures their interests, it is not creditable to us that we should act in opposition to it ; that we should refuse to alter the condition of affairs which rendered that statute necessary; and that we should decline to recognise that large addition to the voting power of the community which has been brought about by the adoption of women's suffrage. Why were those Acts pressed forward at an early stage in the history of this Parliament ? Was it with the idea of abandoning them - of deliberately departing from their terms - or of carrying them out, irrespective of their ultimate effect upon individuals or parties % The only excuse that even supporters of this proposal can urge for their attitude is that the Minister or the Department, or both, have proved unequal to the trust reposed in them, and have for the first time in the history of a Parliament which has made such a vital change in the franchise, shown their inability to carry out the electoral laws. The new Parliament, when it is elected, will stand declared by this Parliament to be improperly representative of the people of Australia. I shall not do more than enter this final protest. I have been prompted to speak by the Minister's arguments in connexion with the figures which he has placed before us this evening. I will not characterize his action as I might, but I must say that there is every reason for disappointment on the part of the people at this remarkable departure from legislation which we deliberately enacted. 4626 L1D Robertson 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I cannot allow the third reading of this Bill to pass without offering a few observations upon it. It constitutes such a shameful abuse of parliamentary government that I must protest against it. I was prepared to abide by the decision of the House, because it seemed to me that whilst the Government had a brutal majority behind them - a phrase which, if necessary, I will withdraw - they were able to enact any legislation that they chose. Apparently, they believe that the Opposition will abide by any legislation which they think fit to force upon us. But we wish to make a protest against hurrying through a Bill of this nature at the present juncture. A subdivision of the electorates of Australia has been Carried out at considerable expense in the very face of the Kyabram economy movement. Reports have been submitted by the Commissioners, and Ministers were expected by Parliament to recommend the adoption of those reports. Moreover, at the last moment the Minister brings forward figures to prove that every electorate might be divided in a way perfectly satisfactory to the country. It must have been noticed, however, that those figures omitted all reference to certain electorates. By the Omission of those figures, the Minister was able to show that there was an equality of votes in every electorate - a thing that is absolutely impracticable. Seeing that the women of all communities gravitate towards the large centres of population, it is impossible to have the electorates exactly as they were under manhood suffrage. The honorable member for Barrier, finding that his constituency is being wiped out, is of course desirous that the old boundaries should be adhered to, notwithstanding that the effect is to lessen the voting power of a number of women. When the Minister brought forward his new figures to-night there were cheers from the- honorable member for Gippsland, the honorable and learned member for Corinella, and others who were not in favour of one man one vote, or one vote one value. They are totally opposed to equality of voting power. It seems to me that their cheers prove either that they did not believe the Minister's figures, or else that they have been serving their own purposes by supporting his action in the past. If we are to legislate for the good of the Commonwealth, we should have some regard for economy. The Commissioners having brought forward their reports, and the Minister having shown by figures that the subdivisions can be carried out more satisfactorily now because of people having re1 turned to their homes, is it not clear that if the reports and maps were returned to them better subdivisions might be made? In that case the expense that has been incurred would not be wasted. It is a. mistake to suppose that the women are not anxious in regard to this matter. Some of the women of Melbourne have made a protest against their practical disfranchisement, which is being effected by the Government. The galleries have been filled night after night while this subject has been under discussion. The people have become convinced that something is wrong, and that the Government have all to gain by asking the House to reject the Victorian and New South Wales divisions, and to approve of the divisions of South Australia and Tasmania. 4626 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - That is nonsense,, and the honorable member knows it. 4626 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - No one is betterable than the honorable member to express a common-sense view upon this question, and if he were asked in private he would say that if this is not gerrymandering it is very like it. 4626 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - The honorable member knows that he is afraid of the opposition of the honorable member for Darling under the proposed new electorates. 4626 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I am favorable to the proposed new electorates, moreover I am not afraid to meet any one in the electorate which I represent, or in the new proposed subdivision. My opponent at the last election was the strongest protectionist who could be brought out against me, a barrister-at-law, with a record in electioneering, who had the advantage of the active personal support on the platform of the Prime Minister. But wherever I spoke in the electorate I gained friends, and consequently beat my opponent. I fear no opposition; Even if I were ousted from my present seat I should run against one of the Ministers. for a certainty, and win the seat for my party. 4627 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Has that anything to do with the question ? 4627 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - In all probability I am out of order, but so long as you, sir, allowed me to go on I was happy to proceed. The Minister, in bringing forward new -figures to-night, has proved conclusively that the Commissioner for New South Wales could make a redistribution of the seats that would be satisfactory to the House, and the honorable gentleman will have to give some reason to the country for not having availed himself of the opportunity afforded him last evening to refer these divisions to the Commissioners for further report. I regret that there should be any necessity for a further protest against Ministerial action in this matter, but in pursuance of my duty to my constituents, I must oppose the action which Ministers are taking. Mr. CONROY (Werriwa). - A most extraordinary course has been pursued by the Minister for Trade and Customs in introducing an entirely new set of figures. He has read a list of new figures which he has told us entirly changes everything that has so far been done. 4627 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did not say so. 4627 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - We have had new figures for three electorates in New South Wales, whilst the Minister depends upon the figures of the old divisions in the case of the other twenty-three electorates in that State. The honorable gentleman has declined to submit fresh figures in the case of those electorates. 4627 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have not got. them. 4627 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - Then why bring forward fresh figures for three of the electorates? 4627 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Because I was able to bring fresh figures forward for three electorates, and even those are not complete. 4627 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - All this goes to show that this Bill has been introduced too soon, and that the third reading should be deferred until the Minister is able to supply honorable members with complete figures. During the whole of the debate upon the Bill the fact has been overlooked that in times past the great outcry has always been against plural voting. 4627 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - And is still. 4627 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - The voices of some honorable members may still be against plural voting, but their actions are in quite another direction, when we find them supporting a division of the State of New South Wales, which will give an elector in Riverina two votes as compared with an elector in Newcastle. So far from abolishing plural voting, honorable members opposite are supporting its adoption on a larger scale than was ever contemplated before. The same remarks will apply to the electorate of Darling. I am sure that the honorable member for Darling has times out of number stood upon the platform and inveighed against the wicked and pernicious system of plural voting. 4627 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - And will do so again. 4627 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr CONROY - I hope that the honorable member has at least sufficient consistency left never again to make the assertion that he disapproves of plural voting. If the honorable member does so I hope that amongst his audience there will be found those, ready to point out that he was among those who in this Parliament advocated plural voting on a larger scale than has ever' before been attempted. Never in any electorate in Australia has it been proposed to give two votes to each elector ; in fact, the honorable member is prepared to give two and a half votes to each person throughout the Darling. I think that I have said enough; and I now leave honorable members who support this Bill to answer at the bar of public opinion, where, if the case be clearly put by the prosecution, there can be no doubt as to the verdict. Amendment negatived. Question - That the Bill be now. read a third time - put. The House divided. 28 Bamford, F. W. Barton, Sir E. Chanter, J. M. Cook, J. H. Forrest, Sir J. Fowler, J. M. Groome, L. E. Isaacs, I. A. Kennedy, T. Lyne, Sir W. J. Mahon, H. Manifold, J. C. Mauger, S. McCay, J. W. McEacharn, Sir M. D. Page, J. Phillips, P. Quick, Sir J. Ronald, J. B. Salmon, C. C. Sawers, W. B. S. C. Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Watkins, D. Watson, J. C. Wilkinson, J. Chapman, A. (Teller) McDonald, C. (Teller) 11 Brown, T. Cooke, S. W. Edwards, G. B. Fuller, G. W. Kirwan, J. W. McMillan, Sir W. Paterson, A. Thomson, D, Willis, H. Cook, Joseph (Teller) Conroy, A. H. (Teller) 22 McColl, J. H. Higgins, H. B. Turner, Sir G. Deakin, A. McLenn, A. Fisher, A. Skene, T. Solomon, E. Fysh, Sir P. Clarke, F. Ewing, T. T. Poynton, A Glynn, P. McM. Smith, S. Hughes, W. M. Knox, W. Kingston, C. C. Tudor, F. Hartnoll, W. Cameron, D. N. McLean, F. E. Groom, A. C. Majority...... 17 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. 4628 adjournment 4628 Motion (by Sir . Edmund Barton) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 4628 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - May I ask what will be the order of business to-morrow? 4628 009LR Protectionist 1 0 BARTON, Edmund Sir EDMUND BARTON - It is proposed that to-morrow the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill shall be further considered in Committee, followed by the resumption of the debate on the second reading of the Naturalization Bill. Question resolved in the affirmative. 4628 00:30:00 House adjourned at 12.5 a.m. (Friday).