1907-11-29 3 2 0 REPS 6811 0 House of Representatives. 1907-11-29 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m, and read prayers. 6811 petition Mr. DUGALD THOMSON presented a petition from the Sydney Chamber of Commerce, praying that the Australian Industries Preservation Bill be set aside. Mr. MALONEY presented a petition from persons engaged in the musical instrument trade, praying the House not to sanction any duty on pianos higher than that levied under the first Federal Tariff. Petitions received and read. 6811 Questions 6811 6811 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I desire to ask the Postmaster-General, without notice, whether, as it is rumoured that the Government intend to construct a new cable to Tasmania, the shortest route will be selected, making Stanley on the northwest coast of Tasmania the terminus, and thus saving the cost of at least 80 to 100 miles of cable, and of the laying of it? 6811 KNJ Protectionist 1 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER - Negotiations are in progress, and inquiry is being made. It is premature yet to say what will be done. 6811 6811 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - In some income tax cases recently heard as between the States of New South Wales and Victoria and certain taxpayers, the question of the status of the High Court was raised, and applications were made for leave to appeal to the Privy Council. Can the Attorney-General inform the House as to the result of those appeals? 6811 KFK Protectionist 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - A cablegram has just been received to the effect that the petitions in Baxter, Flint, and Crouch's case have all been dismissed, but the reasons for the judgment will not be given until a laterdate. 6811 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Those were petitions for leave to appeal ? 6811 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Yes. The position, shortly, is that the High Court held that Federal officers' salaries were not liable to taxation by the States. That was held in Deakin's and Lyne's case. The matter was brought up again before one of the State Judges, who followed the decision of the High Court, but gave leave to appeal to the Privy Council. The Privy Council held that Federal incomes were liable to be assessed for purposes of taxation by the States. The matter arose again in Baxter's case before the High Court in Sydney, and in Flint's case in Melbourne. The High Court re-affirmed its decision, and refused a certificate for leave to appeal to the Privy Council. A petition was then filed with the Privy Council for leave to appeal by the State of New South Wales in Baxter's case, and, I understand, by the Government of Victoria in Flint and Crouch's case. 6811 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Were the circumstances similar in each case? 6811 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - They were in Flint and Baxter's case. I believe there was a difference in Crouch's case, simply from the fact that the remuneration of a member was involved, instead of a public servant's salary. 6811 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Then, does Crouch win or lose? 6811 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - In Crouch's case the petition has been dismissed. The petitions in these three cases have been dismissed. The position, therefore, is that the judgments of the High Court remain. 6811 6811 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether any of the agricultural implement makers have yet furnished the security demanded by the Department, and, if so, how many? 6811 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - I do not know whether any securities have yet been given, but the time allowed - fourteen days - has not yet expired. When the time is up, I shall give the honorable member the information asked for. 6811 Circulation of Committee's Decisions 6811 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Customs, and, in doing so, to make a short explanation. I understand that each day the only information, except the very ample reports - which are not official - of the press, given to merchants as to the duties fixed by 6812 Excise Procedure Bill [REPRESENTATIVES.] Personal Explanation. the Committee of Ways and Means is contained in a copy of the items dealt with posted at the Customs House. Some merchants have drawn my attention to the fact that, however desirous they are of preventing errors in their entries, they find it impossible, in the circumstances, to keep absolutely up to the Customs regulations.I, therefore, ask the Minister whether, as each division of the Tariff is dealt with, he. will cause the result to be published in a handy form, so that it may be circulated amongst merchants. I am told that would be a great convenience if it were done. 6812 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - The honorable member's request appears to be reasonable, and I shall endeavour to comply with it as soon as possible. 6812 6812 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Excise Procedure Bill before the adjournment for Christmas? I understood from the honorable gentleman's recent statement that he proposes to give a general outline of the new protection policy of the Government before the House rises, and that any measures relating to that question are to be dealt with subsequently. 6812 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - If time permits which I doubt - we should certainly deal with the Bill to which the honorable member refers, but before it is dealt with the statement in relation to the new protection will be made. 6812 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Will not the Bill be dealt with until after the Tariff is disposed of? 6812 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - It will not be dealt with until after the statement is made. If time permitted, and the Tariff were disposed of - which is a contingency I am afraid that I cannot contemplate- 6812 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Bill is not likely to be dealt with before the Christmas adjournment? 6812 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - No. 6812 6812 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - I desire to ask the Treasurer whether, as increments recommended by the Public Service Commissioners, as from the1st July last, are being withheld until the Estimates are passed, is it not rather hard upon the officers concerned, who, in most cases, although they have looked forward to receiving the increments, will not be likely to get them now until next July ? Could not the Treasurer make provision 'that all increments shall be paid to those in receipt of under £300 a year, as I understand has been done already in the case of officers receiving under£160? 6812 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The matter has been before me, but at present I do not feel disposed to deal with the whole of those increments before Parliament passes them in the ordinary way in the Estimates. The amount is considerable. I will look into the matter again, but I am not at present prepared to take the responsibility of paying them. 6812 personal explanation 6812 KNJ Protectionist 1 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER - I am sorry to have to trouble the House with a short personal explanation. A small newspaper, published in Melbourne, has made a statement to the effect that I have used my Ministerial influence to get leathers for hats, and machinery for hat-making, placed on the free list, and also to obtain a heavy duty upon hats and caps, and that the result means thousands of pounds to me personally. I should have taken no notice of the statement in the newspaper to which I refer, had not the lying statement been reprinted in quite a number of country papers in Victoria, and, as I learn now, in some New South Wales papers. I have to repeat what I said before, that neither in the case of material nor in. the case of manufactured goods in the hat-making, or any other industry have I a penny of interest, directly or indirectly. 6812 Questions 6812 6812 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether the boys employed as messengers at the Government Printing Office, and also the telegraph messengers, who are compelled to remain on duty at Parliament House during the present extraordinary hours of sitting, are receiving any extra payment: During last session, when there were all-night sittings, the Prime Minister promised that some arrangement would be made to recompense these boys ; and I desire to know whether any arrangement, if made, has been carried out? 6812 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The customary time for considering this matter - and I am sure it will be considered in the best possible spirit - is Christmas Eve. New South Wales [29 November, 1907.] Government Printing. 6813 6813 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is the Prime Minister aware that Parliament is being thoroughly sweated, and, if so, will he say what is proposed to be done regarding payment for overtime ? Are we to have leave of absence in lieu of payment, or how do we stand generally in this connexion? 6813 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I think the question is a very fair one. Speaking for the Government, we are prepared to give the Opposition leave of absence from this time forward until the end of the session. 6813 6813 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - I desire to know from the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to impose a poll tax, or hut tax on the natives of Papua, and, if so, whether it will be under the authority of legislative or of Executive action ? 6813 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The question of the taxation of the native population of Papua will come before this House prior to any steps being taken by the Government. 6813 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - There will be a statement made beforehand? 6813 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Yes. 6813 6813 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What was the amount paid to the New South Wales Government Printing Office for printing the report of the Colonial Conference and the report of Mr. Beale in connexion with Patent Medicines respectively? What is the value of Commonwealth printing executed by the New South Wales Government Printing Office from 1st January to 31st October of the current year? Is he aware that in many cases boys are engaged doing men's work in the Government Printing Office, Sydney ? Is he aware that a married man with a wife and two children and ten years' service is being paid 25s. per week, and another, thirty years of age with a large family and sixteen years' service, is in receipt of 35s. per week, and that in many instances wages are being paid which are not fair and reasonable? Under such circumstances will he consider the advisability of withholding any Commonwealth work from the Government Printing Office, Sydney, until the State Government see that existing sweating is abolished? 6813 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In answer to the honorable member's questions, I beg to state - 1.£270 and£487 respectively. 2.£16,690 10s.10d. No. I understand that boys are not engaged doing men's work. This is a question which it would not be proper for me to officially ask the State Minister to reply to. I, however, happen to know that there is a young man in the Government Printing Office, Sydney, who married very early, and whose promotion was delayed in consequence of his inability to qualify himself. I understand that he has now passed the necessary examination, and that he will receive promotion. I have no knowledge of any other case. I have not ascertained that there is any " sweating " in the Government Printing Office, Sydney, nor do I believe that it exists. I do not consider that there is any necessity for action on the part of this Government. 6813 6813 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Referring to his answer to paragraph 2 of question No.1 of yesterday, regarding rebate of duties on machinery used in the various processes of manufacture of fibrous materials for the production of hats - Does the Minister realize that his reply discloses a serious defect in the method of keeping the accounts of his Department as it appears that though duties are rebated to importers there appears to be no record of the amounts so remitted to individual importers, or even of the total amount of rebates? Has the Auditor-General offered no comment on the loose system of bookkeeping which, from the reply, appears to prevail ? What means, if any, are employed by the Department to trace rebates of duty in connexion with different descriptions of imports? 6813 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - It has already been explained to the honorable member that no rebates were given under the 1902 Tariff. As this was the case it is evident that no record was possible. The goods being free of duty in common with a great number of other goods, no occasion arose for any special record. None was required or necessary. 2 and 3. See reply to No. 1. 6813 6813 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether it is a fact that the Australian claim made upon the German Government in connexion with the treatment of vessels trading from Australia to the Marshall and other German Islands is, after years of waiting, no nearer settlement? Does the British Government indorse the claim ? Does Germany refuse to arbitrate or make a settlement unless Great Britain includes in the arbitration some resuscitated claims by Germany upon Great Britain? 6814 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow - Yes. Yes. Yes.. I may add that when information to this effect reached me on Tuesday last I asked His Excellency the Governor-General to despatch a cable to the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the following effect : - " Ministers have received no information from Secretary of State, but learn that German Government make it condition of agreeing to arbitrate on Burns, Philp's claim that claims by Germany' against Great Britain should be treated similarly. Ministers are unaware what German claims are referred to, but hope His Majesty's Government will not acquiesce in any course that will involve further delay." 6814 6814 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - How many temporary and casual hands have been employed in the Post and Telegraph Department in New South Wales during the present year up to date? What is the total cost of this labour? How many similar hands were employed during the financial years 1903-4, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, and what was the cost involved? What amount Has been provided on the Estimates for temporary assistance for the current financial year? What amount, in view of the present state of expenditure, is it estimated the employment of temporary and casual employment will amount to for 1907-8? 6814 KNJ Protectionist 1 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER - In reply to the honorable member's questions, I have to state that inquiries are being made, and the desired information will be furnished as early as practicable. 6814 6814 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Why are not telegraphists appointed, considering the alleged inadequate and overworked staff of the G.P.O., Sydney, and the numerous complaints by the public appearing in the columns of the daily press in New South Wales? Is it a fact that officers of the General Division who qualified for positions of telegraphists over eighteen months ago are still kept at their present grade and salaries, notwithstanding the fact that they are, and have been, performing telegraphists work. If so, why are these officers not appointed, and their rightful increases allowed them? 6814 KNJ Protectionist 1 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow - The Public Service Commissioner has concurred in the creation of four new positions of Telegraphist and has intimated that steps are being taken to make the appointments. Inquiries are being made and the required information will be furnished as early as possible. I may add that I have had a conference with the Public Service Commissioner this morning, and he is co-operating with" me to as quickly as possible relieve the pressure in the New South Wales Post Office. 6814 miscellaneous In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 28th November, vide page 6810) : Postponed item 181. Rails, Fish Plates, Fish Bolts, Tie Plates and Rods, Switches, Points, Crossings, and Intersections, for Railways and Tramways, ad vol., 12^ per cent. 6814 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - My desire is to move that the duties on this item be 17 J per cent, and 12J per cent. The recommendation of the A section of the Tariff Commission was that the duty should be 12 \ per cent., but I desire to give a preference on this item, as the importations from foreign countries are much larger than from the United Kingdom. In 1906 the importations from the United Kingdom were represented by £134,848, out of a total of £340,435 ; and in the previous year by £132,522 out of a total of ,£340,5-35. This shows a large proportion as against Great Britain, and I desire, by my amendment, to give a preference in favour of the Old Country. I move - That the words " and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val., 17^ per cent." be added. 6814 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Surely there can be a preference without the amendment. 6814 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN . - I thought the Treasurer was rising to propose that the item should be made free, but, as a matter of fact, the amendment means a fairly substantial increase of duty on about two-thirds of the imports. 6814 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Under the old Tariff the duties were 20 per cent, and 12^ per cent. 6814 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - We ought to improve as we go along. This is a tax on mining, an industry which is entitled to fair consideration, representing as it does about £32,000,000 per annum out of a total Tariff [29 November, 1907.](Item 181). 6815 production of£125,000,000 per annum. Not only so, but this duty is a fairly stiff tax on the States Governments, who are, of course, the largest importers and consumers of rails. This means a levy on the loan moneys, which, of course, come here from England in the form of goods. I remind the Committee that while we do not acknowledge that the States Governments, under the Constitution, are exempt from the payment of import duties, we take very great care that nothing imported by the Commonwealth shall be subject to any duty. Of course, this is a matter which affects the merits of the particular duty under consideration. I suggest that the Treasurer should allow rails to be admitted free. 6815 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Certainly not. I am practically reducing the duty which was levied upon them under the old Tariff. 6815 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The Treasurer wishes to increase the rate which he first proposed by 5 per cent., and this higher impost, according to his own figures, will affect two-thirds of the imports. I contend that the increased duty proposed will prove a very severe impost upon mines, and it will fall particularly heavy upon such semi-public bodies as the Adelaide Tramways Trust. The true policy would be to postpone the imposition of the duty, if one be desired, until we are assured that the local consumption can be met by local production. I understand that this is not the case at present, and is not likely to be for some years to come. 6815 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I think that we might shorten the debate upon this item very materially if the Treasurer would only be reasonable. 6815 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I am very reasonable. 6815 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Treasurer proposes to increase the rate upon rails against the foreigner to 17½ per cent. I am quite agreeable to agree to the imposition of a duty of 15 per cent. under the General Tariff if he will reduce the rate against the United Kingdom to 10 per cent. 6815 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Oh, no. 6815 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Treasurer must not forget that a bounty is also payable upon rails. 6815 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - There is no bounty upon the articles specified in this item. 6815 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is a bounty payable upon the raw product from which they are made? 6815 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Yes. 6815 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Treasurer might very well agree to the compromise which I have suggested, and thus save time. 6815 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE .- As the honorable member for Parramatta has pointed out, the fact should not be overlooked that it is proposed to grant a bounty upon the raw material from which the articles specified in this item are made until the iron industry has been sufficiently established. Perhaps the most important of these articles is rails, and it seems to me that they ought not to be subjected to a duty until the time arrives when the Government are satisfied that the iron industry has been established. 6815 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Why not. 6815 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The process of making rails, and especially steel rails, is one which will come last in the production of iron. To make steel rails, heavier and more expensive machinery is required than is necessary in connexion with any other primary process of iron production. 6815 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I understand that, in connexion with the contract into which Mr. Sandford has entered with the New South Wales Government, that gentleman intends to erect a mill for the manufacture of steel rails. 6815 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I have no desire to mention Mr. Sandford's name in this debate, but seeing that it has been introduced, I would point out that under the proposals of the Government he will get the advantage of a bounty of 12s. per ton upon the pig iron that he produces. 6815 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Which amount will go to the State. 6815 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is. the amount which will be paid upon the pig iron that he produces. But in addition he will get 12s. per ton for converting that pig iron into steel rails. 6815 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - No. 6815 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - So far as the articles specified in this item are supplied to the New South Wales Government by Mr. Sandford, the bounty payable in respect of them will be paid into the State Treasury. 6815 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Under an arrangement between Mr. Sandford and the State? 6815 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Yes. 6815 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - But I am dealing with general principles, and I think it would be wise to discuss this matter 6816 Tariff [REPRESENTATIVES.](Rails, &c.). without reference to any particular person. I desire to assist the Treasurer in disposing speedily of the remaining items in this division. All that he desires is that the manufacture of steel rails shall be established in Australia. We all desire that, and nobody wishes it more strongly than I do. But the way in which the Government propose to encourage the industry is by offering a substantial bounty upon the production of iron until it has been established, and subsequently by extending to it a substantial protective duty. I think that the same line of reasoning is applicable to a good many things other' than steel rails, but I confine my remarks to rails because they seem to me of most importance. It has been pointed out that it may be decided that State imports, under this heading, are not subject to duty. If that view should be upheld it is apparent that the duties which we impose upon steel rails will be a considerable tax upon those who have contracted to construct private railways and tramways, and that at a time when admittedly the industry is not capable of manufacturing them. As soon as the Ministry are prepared to come to the House and say, " Mr. Sandford is in a position to manufacture these rails and the industry has been established; let us extend to him a protective duty," I shall be prepared to support their proposal. But until then I think it would be a serious thing to impose this duty on rails. It will be a purely revenue duty for the time being, and will probably be collected only upon the small quantity of rails which is imported by private enterprise. I ask the Treasurer to consider whether it would not be wise at this stage to omit the word "rails" from this item with a view to its insertion in division VIb. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No; I intend to postpone that division until after the Manufactures Encouragement Bill has been dealt with. 6816 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If the measure in question be not passed the Treasurer will still be in a position to recommit the item for the purpose of re-inserting rails, and I shall be found supporting him. 6816 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I wish to emphasize the exact position in regard to this matter. The articles here mentioned which are annually imported into the Commonwealth are valued at £340,000. Of this amount £95,939 worth comes from Belgium ; Germany . £36,575; Netherlands,£255; and the United States,£75,145, or in all £207,913, out of a total of £344,435. The British imports were valued at £132,522. 6816 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Can the honorable gentleman distinguish between the items? 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - No, because all the importations come under the same heading. 6816 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable gentleman has not separate figures for the importations of rails? 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - No; I wanted to get those figures, but they could not be supplied to me by the Department. I do not wish to detain the Committee. Whatever is going to be done, I ask honorable members to come to a vote. The States get back three-fourths of the duty paid upon their importation of these items. 6816 JSM ANTI-SOC 0 0 BROWN, Joseph Mr TILLEY BROWN - Yes ; but the money for the Customs duty comes out of Loan Account, and the three-fourths share is paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - That is a matter for the consideration of, not the Commonwealth Government, but the States. If a certain sum is raised from the importation of these articles, the States get back three-fourths of the money paid in Customs duty. 6816 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr Henry Willis - At least that proportion. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Yes. 6816 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr Henry Willis - Practically, they get back the whole of the duty. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - No ; but in the past the States have been paid back a great deal more than three-fourths of the Customs duty. Therefore, they cannot, or should not, complain. 6816 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The difficulty arises, not with regard to State imports but with regard to imports by corporations or private persons. 6816 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - The Adelaide Tramway Trust does not get back a penny of the duty. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - No. I do not think that either the Adelaide Tramway Trust, the Melbourne Tramway Trust, or any private corporation should get back anything. 6816 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - The Adelaide Tramway Trust is a public body. 6816 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Under the old Tariff, the duties on these items were 12½ and 20 per cent. 6817 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Only ^20,000 worth of imports were liable to the 20 per cent. duty. 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I quite admit that the 20 per cent, duty was imposed on only tie rods. In order to save time, if honorable members are agreeable, I am prepared to take duties of 15 and 12 J per cent, respectively. I will not go below 15 per cent., and I am prepared to take that rate in order to get rid of the item without further discussion. 6817 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - The honorable, gentleman will have to come down. 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE -I am not going to come down below that rate. If it takes until to-morrow morning to get to a division I shall not give way. What I want to do is to get rid of this item, if possible, in order to enable those honorable- members who wish to go away to-night to catch the trains. I have informed the deputy leader of the Opposition that if he will mention two or three items which they wish to have dealt with before they go away, I will take those items out of their turn so that those items which are not contentious in any way may be dealt with afterwards, if necessary. I am willing to do that with a view to conveniencing honorable members, and enabling them to get away by the trains if they wish to go to-night. 6817 F4R South Sydney 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON . - I suggest to the Treasurer that rails generally will be the subject of consideration under Division VIa., and under the bounty provisions. And with regard to the larger form of rail, which is used by railway companies, as well as by State Governments, it does seem to me that we are giving unnecessary assistance if we impose a duty under this division, and then give a bounty under another proposal which the Government have in hand. 6817 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - In any case, as a matter of classification, it should go with the other iron items. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - To my regret the House has agreed to the bounty provision. I think it is unwise to propose so much bounty, and so much duty, at the same time. I suggest either that rails should be eliminated, or that the duties should be confined tb the smaller description of rails. 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No; let us- go to a division, if I must be beaten on it. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I hold that the inclusion of the larger classes of rail - and there is a distinction to be drawn - is a distinct going back upon the policy which the honorable gentleman indicated only a short time ago, namely, that the duty should follow the bounty. 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did not say that. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - It was announced in regard to the Manufactures Encouragement Bill. 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I am going to propose an additional duty, and when I get to that Bill, the bounty, too. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - The honorable gentleman is not going to get this item put through without a' little delay, because he himself announced that there would be no bounty and duty running concurrently. I do not see why steel rails should be the subject of a duty and a bounty concurrently. . 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have never said anything of the sort. 6817 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I am afraid that the honorable member for South Sydney has voted for it. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Certainly not, knowingly. I do not remember an instance of that kind. 6817 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Yes. We pointed it out on several occasions, but the vote was carried against us. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I must have missed the eloquence of the honorable member. I do not remember any such incident. Therefore I must nave been out of the chamber at the time. What I want to do is to limit the weight of the rail on which duty is to be charged. That will achieve practically the same object. A large number of small iron rails are now manufactured locally, and I do not see why they should not receive some degree of protection. 6817 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Why cannot the item of rails be postponed? 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - 4 am not going to postpone a single item. They have to be either reduced or dealt with otherwise. 6817 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Why not fix the duties at 15 and i2L per cent. ? 6817 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No; that is going below the duties in the old Tariff. 6817 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I think the Government ought to try to draw a distinction between the light rail which is at present manufactured and the heavier rail which will be the subject of a bounty in the near future if their own proposals are carried out. Why they should now propose to give a duty plus a bounty I cannot understand. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - For the simple reason that the manufacturers will not get the bounty until a certain time. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Surely the honorable member must recollect that he promised the House that there would not be a duty and a bounty running together. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William LYNE - I beg the honorable member's pardon; I have never said anything of the kind. 6818 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - We understood that the honorable gentleman did. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have never said it. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - It is a strange thing- . 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I do like these protectionists. Upon my word, they will drive me mad. 6818 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - The honorable gentleman is pelting his joss. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I must say that the kind of protection which involves the present to a private manufacturer of a sum directly from the Treasury as well as a protective duty does not commend itself to me, nor has it ever done so. I may be wrong in my opinion, but still I have been consistent in mv wrong-doing whatever it has been. I have always objected to that. kind of treatment. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Let the honorable member go to the other side and take charge of the House - that is the best thing for him to do. I do not want him. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Whether steel made from Australian pig iron takes the shape of rails or blooms, it is to be given an encouragement 6818 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It does not matter what form the steel takes ; there is a double bounty. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I fear that not one of us is sufficiently expert to be able to say what the proper difference in value should be, so far as the bounty is concerned, between pig iron and steel. I do not know. But I do object to steel rails getting a bounty and a protective duty at one and the same time. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William LYNE - Why did the honorable member come to me and advocate duties of 1 5 per cent, and 7 \ per cent.? 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I did nothing of the' sort. 6818 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It is very dishonorable for the Treasurer to say so, anyhow. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member came to me and asked me if I would take 15 per cent, and 7| per cent. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I want to get away before Christmas, and I will do a number of things . by way of compromise that I should not otherwise be disposed to do in order to get away. But the Treasurer cannot say that I " advocated " 15 per cent, and 7^ per cent. I asked him at the same time to make a qualification so far as the weight of rails was concerned. I think that it would be a proper thing to do to exempt steel rails from the operation of: this item altogether. 6818 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - All rails? 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Iron rails used for tramway purposes are made locally, and I do not want to deprive those who make them of any protection which they may enjoy. 6818 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member could achieve his object by inserting the words "except steel." 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - Very well; I will do that. If the Treasurer will temporarily withdraw his own amendment, I will move to that effect. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (by Mr. Watson) proposed - That after the word "Rails" the words "except steel " be inserted. 6818 JM2 Capricornia 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER .-! should like to ask the honorable member for South Sydney where he proposes to bring in steel rails if they are omitted from the present item ? 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - -He wants to bring: them in from Germany. 6818 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - Does the honorable member for South Sydney propose to put them in another item? I wish to know, because T also have an amendment to move. 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I propose to make then* free. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Oh, let us make everything in the Tariff free ! 6818 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Let the Minister withdraw the, Bounty Bill, and we will give him any duty he wants. 6818 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - It is, I think, very necessary to grant a preference to rails; that are made in the United Kingdom. 6818 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Honorable members opposite do not want any preference on any thing. 6818 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - They do, I think, want to grant a preference on account of steel rails. I should like to read to the Committee the following statement bearing- upon the matter of the importation of steel rails, fish plates, bolts and nuts, and dog spikes. Supplies for Australia come principally from America and Germany in addition to those from Great Britain. Preference should undoubtedly be given in favour of British goods for these reasons. Supplies come through the resident representative in Sydney of the United Slates Steel Trust, the biggest trust in the world. If business in American rails is to be allowed, then let the business be done through Australian merchants, who are now completely shut out by reason of the presence of this trust in the country. During the last two or three years a war of freights between America and Australia has resulted in supplies coming from America at as low a freight as 7s. 6d. per ton as against 25s. to 30s. per ton from England. Almost the same remarks apply as to Germany, with this difference that the lower wages in Germany, should not be lost sight of. Australian politicians claim as the basic reason of protection against British-made goods that the highly paid Australian workman must be protected against the lower paid British workman. This principle, therefore, should be carried out to . a logical conclusion by a preference or protection for the British steam-ship owners against the heavily-subsidized German steamers, and for the higher price of labour in the United Kingdom than in Germany. In New Zealand a preference of 20 per cent, is given in favour of British rails. Previous to that being given, the. rails imported into New Zealand came almost entirely from Germany and the United States. Since then they have come from Great Britain.. I would ask the honorable member for South Sydney, in particular, to support a preference to Great Britain, as otherwise it seems to be a foregone conclusion that a great proportion of the rails will come from Germany and America. 6819 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I am quite agreeable to give some preference to Great Britain. 6819 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - There is another matter which I should like to mention in connexion with the item. I desire to ask you, Mr. Chairman, whether I should be in order in moving an amendment now, or later on. in connexion with steel sleepers imported as tramway material. At the present time steel sleepers are separated from the rest of tramway material. They come in as metals n.e.i. I propose to move an amendment so as to make steel sleepers come in on. the same basis as steel rails and other tramway material. Suppose, for instance, that I wanted to let a contract for a tramway in a mine. It would be very awkward if the sleepers came in under one heading of the Tariff and the rails and the rest of the equipment under another heading. I understand from the departmental officers that they have no objection whatever to what I propose, if the Minister is agreeable. 6819 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Does the honorable member desire to move a separate item? 6819 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - No. I think what I desire can be obtained by way of an amendment. 6819 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member can. move it as soon as the present amendment is disposed of. 6819 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Where are steel sleepers included now? 6819 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - Under manufactures of metal n.e.i., item 171; whilst the rest 01 tramway equipment comes in under item 181. I hope that the Minister will accept such an amendment when I move it. 6819 L1D Robertson 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - - It seems to me that this will be a severe impost upon private tramways and railways whether for public convenience or for mining purposes. It is only in such cases that it will actually be felt. If we remove steel rails from the item we shall have left materials used largely by the States Governments, who will have returned to them a very large proportion of the revenue collected in respect of the duty. In this way local manufacturers will be disadvantaged rather than benefited, inasmuch as the States Governments in calling for tenders for the supply of material of this kind -will take into consideration the fact that if they accept a foreign tender they will secure a good deal of revenue from the duty. I do not think that the item is worth the time that the Treasurer has devoted to it. If he is prepared to agree to duties of 15 per cent and 10 per cent. I shall have nothing more to say. 6819 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Ten per cent, would be lower than the old Tariff. I am prepared to accept duties of 15 per cent.. and i2L per cent. 6819 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - If there is anything at all in preferential trade we should have a preference of at least 5 per cent. The Treasurer has shown that two-thirds of the imports do not come from the United Kingdom, and if he will agree to duties of 15 per cent, and 10 per cent. I shall be satisfied. 6819 JX9 Kalgoorlie 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER .- It appears to me that since steel rails have not yet been made in Australia, the only effect of the duty, if the item be passed in the form proposed by the Treasurer, will be to raise revenue. There is, of course, the further consideration that steel rails may be made in a New South Wales foundry. 6820 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is no doubt about that. 6820 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - I am prepared to give the iron industry to which this item relates very considerable protection by way of bounties ; but I am not prepared to penalize other industries - and particularly railway and tramway construction schemes for the development of the Commonwealth - by imposing a duty. I shall vote for the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, but not for a duty to operate concurrently with the bounty, and I think that the proposal submitted by the honorable member for South Sydney to insert after "rails" the words "except steel "- 6820 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Rails are not the subject of bounty. 6820 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - But steel is. 6820 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - Once we produce the necessary steel we shall soon manufacture the rails. The proposal of the honorable member for South Sydney to insert after the word " rails " " except steel," and then to add a new paragraph providing that steel rails and sleepers imported from the United Kingdom shall be free and that those imported from the rest of the world shall be dutiable at 5 per cent., will have my hearty support.. 6820 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Anything to oppose the Government. 6820 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - If the Treasurer had his deserts I should be taking up that position. 6820 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - The honorable member for South Sydney said that he objects to a duty being imposed on this item, because we have already agreed to the second reading of the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, under which a bounty is to be given on the production of iron and steel. In reply to that contention I would point out that under another measure we have granted bounties on the production of coffee, tobacco, tobacco leaf, fish, dried fruits, and other things, and that in spite of the representations of some honorable members of the Opposition duties have been imposed upon those commodities. The honorable member for South Sydney himself voted for some of those duties which, in proportion to the value of the goods to which they relate, are much heavier than are these. I have never objected unless on the grounds- of fair play to vote against protective duties affecting industries in even my own State, but many other honorable members have invariably voted for high duties on goods and have done so regardless of whether or not they were the subject of bounty. I ha.ve said on several occasions that, in the absence of good reasons to the contrary, I would accept the old duties, and I have- not endeavoured to reduce them. I have recognised that where an industry has risen with that assistance, and has since been working under the old duties it would be to some degree unjust to those engaged in it if the duties were so soon removed. Whilst, personally, I should be quite willing under ordinary circumstances to agree to rails being admitted free, I am faced with the situation that just as the iron industry, which has been working under 'great difficulties, is about to produce steel rails, it is proposed, by the very honorable members who have supported much higher duties on imports affecting other industries, that it shall be treated differently from every other industry. I am not inclined to fall into that trap, more particularly as we have accepted as a compromise much higher duties on, other iron manufactures than are those now under consideration. This particular article is produced in one State, and apparently a different treatment is to be given to it than is meted out to industries in another State. I do not think that is right. I agree with the position taken up by the honorable member for South Sydney, that where a bounty has been given there should not be duties. If the honorable member had carried out that principle his position would be perfectly sound. But he has not done so. He has voted for duties on articles in connexion with which we are not merely considering, but have actually passed a measure granting bounties. I am quite willing that there should be an adjustment providing for the imposition of duties of 15 per cent, under the general Tariff and 10 per cent, on imports from the United Kingdom. That would represent an average of 12^ per cent. , which was the duty imposed under the old Tariff. 6820 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I should prefer to take 12 \ per cent, all round. 6820 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Will the Treasurer take 12J per cent, all round? 6820 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes, I will. 6821 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I am prepared to accept that - 12^ per cent, was the duty under the old Tariff, .and would leave things as they were. 6821 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I shall not object to that. I am quite willing to fall in with the views of honorable members if they agree to revert to the duty under the old Tariff, but I certainly do object on the grounds of fairness to 'the other proposals that were made. 6821 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I think that this is an item in' connexion with which a preference should be provided. I have submitted the item, and we have had a proposition to leave out rails, which I absolutely object to. Then a proposal was made to make the duty 10 per cent., which would be lower than the recommendation of the Tariff Commission and lower than the old duty. In the circumstances I would very much rather agree to a duty of 12J per cent, all round, which is the duty that was imposed under the old Tariff. If honorable members are prepared to accept that I shall not press the Government proposal any longer. I do not wish to detain the Committee, but I should like to know at once whether a majority of honorable members are inclined to accept the suggestion that the duty should be 121 per cent, all round and let the matter drop. 6821 KGZ Fremantle 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES -431-- There is some misapprehension as to what is included in this item. Some honorable members appear to think that steel rails are not included. I remind the Committee of the importance of steel rails to Australia. We have in the whole of the Commonwealth less than 15,000 miles of railway. In Victoria alone there are 3,342 miles of railway, and if the mileage laid down' in the other States were in proportion we should have in Australia 113,000 miles of railway. It is ali very well for Victorian members to propose to tax steel rails which have to be laid in the other States. 6821 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - Why say Victorian members ? 6821 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - Because they go in for taxing everything. 6821 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - In this instance we wish to assist a New South Wales industry. 6821 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - As compared with the other States Victoria is covered by a network of railways. 6821 KVJ 0 0 STORRER, David Mr Storrer - The people of the State have paid for them. 6821 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - But they have paid no duty to Western Australia to be allowed to lay them. We are being asked under this item to contribute to the revenue of the Commonwealth before we can lay a mile of railway. We can only afford in Western Australia to build railways out of loan money, and honorable members would appear not to mind our borrowing money and handing it over to the Commonwealth to spend on the richest States, which last year had huge surpluses of revenue. Queensland has 3,114 miles of railway; Western Australia, with an area one-third larger than Queensland, has only 2,312 miles, including 700 miles of private lines. New Zealand has 2,520 miles of railways, and the United States, with an area considerably less than that of Australia, has 217,000 miles of railways. We have heard a good deal of talk in this House about the necessity 'of opening up the country, but taxing the construction of railways is not likely to bring that about. People have been walking about Australia long enough, while the members of various Parliaments have been talking about what they were going to do to open up the interior. We have an opportunity here to do .something practical by allowing steel rails to be imported free. We cannot open up a country with cheap whisky, yet 2s. a gallon has been taken off whisky in Western Australia, whilst a proposal is made to increase the duty on steel rails. If I wished to prevent the opening up of a country, I would give people cheap whisky, and I guarantee, many would not get far into the interior. They would be kept down near the coast. The policy .of the present Government would appear to be dear rails and cheap whisky. There is no sense in it. If. we. could make steel rails in Australia I would say that we ought to do so. I should be prepared to vote for the highest bounty necessary to secure the manufacture of rails in Australia, but I am not prepared to vote for a high duty on rails when they are not made here. In Western Australia the Government are borrowing .money to build railways, whilst the Commonwealth Government are retaining 25 per cent, of the duties collected from Customs and Excise. 6821 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr Henry Willis - What are they doing with that 25 per cent. ? It goes back to the States. 6821 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - They are playing with it, or are spending it in the richest States. Let me tell the honorable member that in Western Australia last year we built between 400 and 500 miles of railways, and this year money has been voted for nearly 400 miles of railway construction. 6822 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr Henry Willis - The honorable member forgets that Western Australia gets bacik the money that he says is retained by the Commonwealth. 6822 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - Is it our own before we get it back? Id is borrowed money. In Australia we have only two-thirds of the railway mileage that has been constructed in Canada. Is it any wonder that we so often hear so much of the prosperity of Canada when we learn that the railway mileage constructed in the Dominion is one-third more than we can claim for Australia? 6822 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Australia is twice as progressive as Canada. 6822 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - I am speaking of the number of miles of railways constructed in the two countries. Natal is but a little country, comprising not more than one-eightieth of the area of Australia. Yet, in proportion, Natal has eighteen times our length of railways per square mile. The area of Australia is ten times that of Cape Colony, and yet that country has in proportion four times our length of railways. Japan, a country that we have to fear in the future, is another instance. If we had railways in the same proportion as Japan has, we should have a million miles of them. Japan on an area of 13,000 square miles has 5,000 miles of railway. 6822 KFN ALP 0 0 FOSTER, Francis Mr FOSTER - Do they import the rails or make them there? 6822 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - They are now putting up a big steel plant, where they will be making something that we will not like if we are not ourselves careful in the same direction. The United States of America have 20,000,000 tons of rails laid down more than we have. They have paid no tax or duty on them to any other country. Let us make the rails here. I will help the Government to give a bounty to encourage their manufacture, but I shall not vote for a duty on them. We must open up Australia, and must have rails to do it. Look at the huge Northern Territory, and the immense areas of land between here and there. Those honorable members who paid a visit to the Territory recently went by water. Think of the senselessness of people who, instead of laying rails to open up a country, travel round the edge of it by sea. Within the last six weeks, I saw train loads of cattle which had come down from the Cooper Creek country. They had been brought via Oodnadatta to Adelaide, and then across to Melbourne to feed the Melbourne people. Why should we not have rails laid to those splendid areas of country? There is not a rail laid there to-day. 6822 KDF 0 0 EDWARDS, Richard Mr Edwards - Are there any people there ? 6822 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - How could people live there if we forbid the laying of rails? People will go wherever the railways go. Open up the country, and people will follow. They could not possibly live in that country without rails. In the interests of settlement, people should be given facilities for 'travelling about the country, and for sending their produce to market. They must have rails for those purposes. This country is a finer one than people recognise. There is not a railway that has ever been built in Australia but has developed country which has turned out a credit to the people who authorized the building of the line. I know of many railways which it was said would ruin the State when they were built, and yet every one of them has helped hundreds and" thousands of people to settle on the land, and so turn the interior of Australia to proper use. In America, where there are so many fine rivers, the water is used for irrigating, and rails are laid alongside the rivers to carry the produce. The policy of America from the start has been cheap rails and cheap carriage. We must recognise that we can hold Australia only by developing it with railways. We shall never hold it against, the great Eastern powers if we are to tax railway construction. It is disgraceful for any man who pretends to legislate for the benefit of Australia to vote for one penny of duty on steel rails. We should do our best to devise some means by which we can make rails in Australia. That would be sensible. But we must within the next twenty years lay in Australia at least another 15,000 or 20,000 miles of rails. I ask the Committee to support the amendment of the honorable member for South Sydney, to place steel rails on the free list. 6822 JWO Cook 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS . - Throughout the discussion of the Tariff, I have not voted for a single duty where a. bounty is being paid, and I am not going to do it in this instance. One cannot be surprised at speeches such as the honorable member for North Sydney delivered just now, because it is characteristic of the House as at present constituted. Taking the House as a whole, there is practically no out-and-out fiscal conscience at all. Members are going for what happens to suit them on every individual item, which, of course, I do not disagree with. 6823 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Does not the honorable member think that he might leave other members' consciences to themselves? 6823 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS - I am referring more particularly to the honorable member for North Sydney, who has been a life-long free-trader, and yet is prepared to vote for a duty on an article which cannot be manufactured in the Commonwealth, in addition to the huge bounty that is to be paid. 6823 KVJ 0 0 STORRER, David Mr Storrer - The honorable member for North Sydney is consistent. . 6823 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS - If the honorable member for Bass thinks that it is consistent for a free-trader to support a duty as well as a bounty on an article that cannot be made in Australia, he has a peculiar idea of consistency. On any item as to which a bounty has been passed, I absolutely object to voting for a duty. Honorable Members. - Divide ! Divide ! 6823 JX9 Kalgoorlie 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER . - It is all very well to cry " divide," but when I previously spoke, I thought that there, was going to be an almost unanimous vote to place steel rails on the free list. I am afraid that developments have occurred which seem to indicate the .possibility that that will not be done. I cannot understand the attitude of the Committee in being prepared to vote for a revenue or protective duty upon a commodity, of which the Minister himself admits that not a single pound has been produced in Australia yet, especially when we are assured that there is to be a bounty to encourage its manufacture. I am prepared to support that bounty, but, apparently, a number of honorable members are ready to sneak a duty on to the article in addition. 6823 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The bounty and duty should not be concurrent. 6823 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - They should not be. We committed ourselves the other night to a proposal for a bounty. Now it is proposed that one of the commodities, which is to be the subject of a bounty, shall receive additional consideration. 6823 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We are all opposed to " double banking " ; and is not the question now whether, before steel rails are actually made, there should be a revenue duty on imported rails, or whether there should be a bounty when they are manu.factured with no duty in the meantime? 6823 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - I unhesitatingly accept the latter alternative. There ought to be no revenue duties which tend to discourage the opening up of the country, especially in view of the fact, in the present instance, that no one suggests that steel rails are made within Australia. 6823 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The honorable member has voted time after time for duties upon constructional material. 6823 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - The honorable member has been with me in many divisions, and if his conscience is clear we may take it that my conscience is clear also. I have certainly not intentionally voted for a duty when we are paying a bounty. We ought to adopt the suggestion of the honorable member for South Sydney, and make rails subject to duty by proclamation, so as not to penalize users of rails that are not made in Australia. It is unaccountable to me how a duty of 12J per cent, was ever imposed; and I take the view that having perpetrated a blunder, we ought not to perpetuate it. 6823 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The honorable member will observe that this item relates to rails - not necessarily big, heavy rails, but rails of any sort; the term covers all the small rails used in mines for skips, and so forth. 6823 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Would the honorable member approve of exempting steel rails from duty? 6823 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall not vote for any exemption, because I prefer a duty of 121 per cent, to a bounty. I shall vote for a duty, and endeavour to eliminate the bounty. 6823 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - A bounty has been agreed upon ; the second reading of the Manufactures Encouragement Bill has been passed. 6823 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Though the second reading is passed, every provision in the Bill is subject to consideration, and may be altered. 6823 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - The honorable member knows that the Bill will not be thrown out. 6823 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not; the honorable member may find the Bill thrown out, because of some provisions made in the meantime. All we have done has been to affirm the principle of a bounty, but no details whatever have yet been dealt with. 6824 Tariff [REPRESENTATIVES.](Rails, &c.). If the duty be fixed at 12½ per cent., the scope of the Bill may be so altered as to exclude steel rails from any benefit under the measure. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - But we have been invited to discuss the Tariff on the assumption that the Manufactures Encouragement Bill will pass through as placed before the House. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - But the further consideration of the Bill has been deferred, so that we may consider it after the duties have been fixed. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We have sanctioned a bounty. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -We have sanctioned the principle of a bounty on iron. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I suggest that if the Bill be not passed in the form in which it has been sanctioned in principle, we should support the Government in recommitting the item in the Tariff now before us. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I, on the other hand, . suggest that we should vote for a duty of 12½ per cent. on steel rails, and alter the bounty accordingly. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Then the whole thing must go into the melting pot, and we shall not know where we are. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - As I did not vote for a bounty on iron, I am now taking a consistent course. A duty of 12½ per cent. has been in operation for the last six years. In discussing this question, I am bound to mention Mr. Sandford, since he owns the only large iron-works in Australia; and I point out, that now he is about to manufacture steel rails, it is suggested that he should be deprived of the benefit of this revenue duty of 12½ per cent. I understand that the , £70,000 he received from the New South Wales Government was , to enable him to erect mills for the special purpose of making rails. Mr. Sandford rolled steel rails at Eskbank nearly twenty years ago for the State Government. I may explain. . however, that he simply rolled old rails after they had been cut up and melted ; in other words, he made steel rails from scrap. That work was put an end to when Mr. Eddy became railway commissioner in New South Wales. That gentleman at once introduced larger engines, which instead of 60-lb. rails, which Mr. Sandford used to roll, required 85-lb. rails. Mr. Sandford, I may say, was given compensation by the State Government for the termination of his contract. To Mr. Sandford I owe nothing, for he has been a bitter opponent of mine all my political life ; but, in justice, I must recognise that he has made a brave fight for this industry. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If Mr. Sandford is paid a bounty in the meantime, he will have the benefit of at least 20 per cent. instead of 12½ per cent. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Mr. Sandford told the Tariff Commission that he did not desire a bounty, and he gave the reason. He had to give an undertaking to the State Government, under the arrangement I have mentioned, that any bounty must be handed over to the Government ; and, under the circumstances, he naturally prefers a small duty of 12½ per cent. 6824 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - That is because Mr. Sandford made a bad bargain with the State Government. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Mr. Sandford made a bargain which has resulted in the erection of the first blast furnace in Australia. I am inclined to think, however, that it was not a good bargain for himself ; and, if that be the case, there is no reason why we should further penalize him. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Penalize him? We are proposing to give him the benefit of what is tantamount to 20 per cent. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am referring to that provision in his agreement. I opposed the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, because, as I said before, I prefer a small duty to a bonus. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Have we to discuss the Tariff on the assumption that that Bill is to pass, or on the assumption that it is not to pass? 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There seems a desire to discuss the Tariff on the assumption that Mr. Sandford will receive a bounty on steel rails. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE -That is because the House has sanctioned a bounty. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Not at all; the House has approved of the principle of a bounty, but the details have yet to be agreed upon. 6824 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If the bounty is cut down I shall be with the honorable member. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That result is very likely to be arrived at when the matter is thoroughly discussed in Committee. 6824 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - We may limit the bounty to the production of steel ingots. 6824 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Yes. We have merely approved the broad principle Tariff [29 November, 1907.](Item 181). 6825 of granting a bounty upon the production of iron, and it does not follow that we shall extend that bounty to the manufacture of steel rails. Therefore we shall be doing a fair thing if we continue to Mr. Sandford the duty which has been operative for six years past, but of which he has not been able to take advantage until this moment. 6825 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Let us fight to knock out the bounty. 6825 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall certainly oppose it. Meantime we ought to continue this small duty upon steel rails. 6825 KVJ Bass 0 0 STORRER, David Mr STORRER .- I was under the impression that the debate upon this item would not occupy more than a few minutes, and why so much heat has been imported into it, I cannot understand. For the past six years a duty of 12½ per cent. has been, levied upon iron, and we have also determined that it is necessary to grant a bounty upon the production of that commodity in order to encourage the establishment of the iron industry. Yet it is now proposed that the duty shall be remitted. It is like giving a man a pound with one hand and taking 25s. away from him with the other. If we wish the iron industry to prosper we ought not to abolish the duty upon rails. I trust that the old rate will be retained. 6825 KYT Kooyong 0 0 KNOX, William Mr KNOX . - The Committee is apparently of opinion that it is of the first importance that the iron industry should be established in the Commonwealth. But notwithstanding that the Manufactures Encouragement Bill has passed its second reading it has a perilous time in front of it. I think it is dawning upon the minds of several honorable members that if we desire to assist the establishment of the iron industry we ought to view this question from the stand-point of whether or not the operation of a duty will have that effect. I think that the policy of the Labour Party will be to prevent the Manufactures Encouragement Bill from passing. 6825 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - I do not know why the honorable member should say that. 6825 KYT 0 0 KNOX, William Mr KNOX - I think that a majority of the party are opposed to the Bill. Personally, I favour the imposition of a reasonable duty upon rails, altogether apart from the fact that we have already committed ourselves to the general principle embodied in the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, the passing of which is, however, exceedingly doubtful. I am satisfied that honorable members do not desire that a bounty and a protective duty shall be simultaneously operative. 6825 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST .- If we wish to develop the iron industry in the Commonwealth, we should develop it in the way the House has agreed to, namely, by means of a bounty. We ought in this matter to adopt a straightforward course, and ought not to consider the fact that Mr. Sandford has concluded, an arrangement with the New South Wales Government under which any bounty that he may receive will be paid into the State Treasury. 6825 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I think that we ought to consider that. 6825 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I cannot see why we should retard the progress of Australia by placing a duty upon an article which is absolutely necessary to its development. Steel rails are not made here, and we desire to encourage their production by the granting of a bounty. Why we should be asked to tax all the States Governments and others by imposing a revenue duty upon steel rails is beyond my comprehension. The time has arrived when we should endeavour to establish the industry in a straightforward way, namely, by means of the granting of a bounty. If we adopt that course, we shall not injure any of the States, or any of those persons who are engaged in railway enterprise. On the other hand, if we levy a tax upon rails, we shall inevitably retard the progress of the whole Commonwealth. 6825 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS .- The honorable member for Swan has said that there is nothing like a straightforward course. I also believe in a straightforward course, and I voted for a bounty as the least objectionable method of assisting to develop the iron industry of Australia. I have voted for a bounty system which will apply not only to Mr. Sandford, but to any other maker of iron who may put in a claim. It was not passed in the interests of Mr. Sandford only, but in the interests of Australian manufacturers, and it extends to the production of steel rails. It may be that a friend of the right honorable gentleman in Western Australia will claim the bounty. I certainly agree with the right honorable gentleman that the imposition of a revenue duty on an article when we are unable to produce it is not only absurd, but also a tax upon the community generally. The chief users of 6826 Tariff [REPRESENTATIVES.](Rails, &c.). steel rails in Australia are the States Governments. They practically use the bulk of the imported rails in the construction of railways, which are designed for the development of their territories. If we impose a duty of a revenue character, we shall get no compensating advantage in the way of assisting the iron industry, but we shall compel every person in each State to carry a burden which will tend to retard the process of developing its resources. Because, after all, there is a limit to the borrowing capacity of each State, and to the amount which it can afford to expend on railway construction. Every tax of a needless character which we impose is a tax upon the States. The honorable member for Swan prefaced his remarks with the statement that he likes a straightforward policy. So do I. I am sorry that the right honorable gentleman was a member of the Ministry which imposed a duty of 12½ per cent. on steel rails in the old Tariff. That duty, which is certainly not consistent with a straightforward policy, was imposed upon Australia by the Barton Administration, in which the right honorable gentleman took a prominent part. 6826 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest -That seems to be about the only argument which the honorable gentleman can use. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I remind the downy member for Swan - because the swan has more down than has any other bird that I know of - that the Government of which he was a prominent member wanted to impose a duty of 15 per cent. Now, in the name of the sacred frog, if, as the honorable gentleman states, a duty of 12½ per cent. is a severe impost upon the users of iron, what would be a duty of 15 per cent. ? 6826 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - That is a very poor argument. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I admit that it is a very poor argument; but what a poor illustration of a straightforward course it is ! The right honorable gentleman has referred to the conduct of the honorable member for Parramatta. But the former is a protectionist or a free-trader when it suits him. On this particular item he and I happen to be in accord, but I am sorry that his straightforward policy was not initiated five years ago, when this item was under consideration. 6826 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The honorable member should not destroy his friends. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I do not know who are my friends. The party of which I am a prominent member has no friends. 6826 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The honorable member has one friend, any way. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I may tell the right honorable gentleman that the party in which I am a prominent member is very solid.. Every morning we have our caucus in the train, and the great trouble is that invariably the party make me their spokesman ; but we do not quarrel either here or outside. I think that the straightforward policy to which the right honorable gentleman has professed to be so much attached is rather belated. I wish that it had been practised in the time of the Barton Administration. 6826 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The honorable member has changed his views since then. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - They are not the only things changed. The right honorable gentleman has changed his supporters since then. I remember the time when he was very much attached to the Labour Party, but he will not have their support now. I suggest to the Treasurer that if he is prepared to accept a duty of12½ per cent., as I am told he is, he may as well climb down to the dead level. If he is prepared to accept a duty of 12½ per cent. he cannot justify it as a protectionist duty. 6826 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It is not in the true sense. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - Then what the deuce is it? 6826 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I wanted to get duties of 17½ per cent., and 12½ per cent., and it was only to settle the matter that I said that I was prepared to take the lower duties. I thought that I had made a liberal arrangement which would be generally accepted and stop further debate, but it seems that the disease of talking is. spreading. 6826 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - I am opposed to a bounty and a duty. On general principles, I oppose an import duty on iron ; it is a tax. upon the users. We should not levy a revenue duty ; in this case, as in others, it can be of no assistance to the local industry. I hope that the bounty will be effective for the purpose which we intend. 6827 4.25 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON I rise to say a few words in reply to a remark by the honorable member for Swan. Another honorable member made a somewhat similar statement, but decline to take any notice of it from him. The right honorable gentleman said that some honorable members who have been free-traders all their lives were voting for protection in this instance. May I tell the honorable member that throughout this Tariff I have been voting for what I call protective duties simply because we could not get anything else. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - That is not so in this case. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I recognised that those who were induced to start industries under the old duties had some claim for the continuance of those duties, at any rate for a time. I have often voted what I call protectionist duties, partly because, in some cases, I could not get less - that is where I did not think that there was any claim - and partly because in other cases I thought that there was a just claim owing to the. encouragement which had been deliberately given by our policy. Throughout the Tariff I have been acting on that principle, and with regard to industries everywhere. I have opposed, and shall continue to oppose, a bounty upon the production of iron. The bounty would give assistance to the makers of some articles which are now free. Although those articles are duty free, yet I shall oppose the bounty, and give no assistance which has not been already given. 6827 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I would vote this duty cheerfully if there were to be no bounties. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - There should be no duplication. If a bounty is carried, then the duty ought to be remitted, or we should put in a provision that it shall be deducted from the bounty. When I am asked to vote differently in the case of this industry, and to give no recognition to a duty which has been in existence, I am asked to do an injustice which I have not attempted to do in the case of other manufacturers. I do not think that I am inconsistent in the least degree. I believe that, as a rule, honorable members know how I intend to vote on a Tariff question before I have voted. Therefore I think that the honorable member for Swan is quite wrong in his statement. I shall not reproach him with having supported the imposition of a higher duty when he was a member of the Barton Government. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Do not do that. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I do not intend to. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - My statement was only used by me as an argument, and I do not want to press it. 6827 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - It should be remembered that we are producing a number of the articles which are to be the subject of a bounty, but not steel rails. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I admit that. I do not wish to see a duty and a bounty, because that is going beyond either what is necessary or desirable. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Does the honorable member think that a duty on steel rails is justifiable under any conditions - in the present state of this country? 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - What a question for the right honorable member to ask me. Can he be thinking? He has been voting duty after duty on articles which affect construction in this country far more than do rails. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - When and where? 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Let the honorable member consider the votes that he has given for duties on cement, other machinery, and iron work, and many other items. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - We make them in the country, but we do not make any of these rails. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The rails are proposed to be made here, whilst many of the things for duties on which the honorable member voted are not made in Australia. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I should like to know which. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The claim made on their behalf was that they would be made in Australia if we imposed a duty. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - What is the honorable member referring to? 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - All through the Tariff that has been the case. Then the right honorable member speaks of steel rails as if they were all important. 6827 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - They are more important than nine-tenths of the other items in the Tariff. 6827 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Consider the return of duty paid as shown in the figures supplied to us. I could, if need be, point to items that we have already carried affecting the developmental policy of the country infinitely more than this duty does. 6827 L0P Wimmera 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON .- I intend to vote for the continuance of the old duty. Under the proposal accepted 6828 Tariff [REPRESENTATIVES.](Rails,&c.). by the Treasurer there will be no change. I cannot understand why it is that some protectionists intend to vote to wipe out the duty on steel rails. A great deal has been said about the granting of the bounty. Presuming that the Manufactures Encouragement Bill gets into Committee, and becomes law, it will merely involve the payment of the bounty on the production of pig iron, and steel made from it. But what about the manufacture of rails from the raw material? Surely the manufacture of steel rails from the simple steel is in itself an industry as much entitled to a duty as any other commodity included in the Tariff. So far as the amount of the bounty proposed to be paid is concerned, I must say that I am not very much impressed by its value. The amount proposed to be paid is very small if we really desire to establish a great industry. The probability is that Mr. Sandford under present conditions will be able to obtain the whole bounty paid. The capacity of his blast furnaces enables him to turn out about 50,000 tons per annum, and his resources in reference to the two processes through which steel has to go, would enable him to obtain the whole amount. Even if he were to do that, however, he would be able to produce only about one-eighth or one- tenth of the total requirements of Australia. So that the bounty proposed to be granted for the development of the iron industry is a mere infinitesimal proportion. I shall vote for the continuance of the duty of 12½ per cent. on steel rails, because I consider that it is a branch of industry the claims of which for a measure of protection are as great as are those of any other item in the Tariff. Question - That the words "except steel " proposed to be inserted after the word" rails" be so inserted (Mr. Watson's) amendment - put. The Committee divided. 15 27 Majority ... ...12 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 6828 JM2 Capricornia 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER .- I move - That after the word " Rods " the words " and steel sleepers " be inserted. Steel sleepers are part of tramway equipment, and should come under the same heading. Otherwise, they will be included under manufactures of metals n.e.i. Question put. The Committee divided. 16 18 Majority ... ... 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 6829 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I would suggest to the Treasurer that a much better apportionment of this duty, and one more satisfactory to all concerned, would be to provide for a general Tariff of 15 per cent. and for a duty of 10 per cent. on imports from the United Kingdom. 6829 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - But we already have a duty of 12½ per cent. 6829 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - I thought we were to have duties of 15 per cent. and 10 per cent. 6829 KIN Hume Protectionist Trea surer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I do not object to the honorable member's proposition. I told some honorable members that I would agree to an all round duty of 12½ per cent; yet. whilst I do not like to go below the old Tariff by providing for a duty of 10 per cent. on imports from the United Kingdom if it is thought desirable that we should have duties of 15 per cent. and 10 per cent., I shall offer no objection. I move - That the words " and on and after . 30th November, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 10 per cent.," be added. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 182. Iron pipes, Cast and Wrought, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. 6829 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I had intended to propose duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent. on this item,butI was asked last night to propose instead fixed duties of £2 in the General Tariff and £1 10s. on imports from the United Kingdom. These fixed duties would be about equal to ad valorem duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent., and I am quite agreeable to move them, as that would be a better method of collecting the duty, and one more acceptable to those who import the pipes. I move - That after the words " 30 per cent." the words and on and after 30th November, 1907, per ton (General Tariff), 40s.," be inserted. Amendment agreed to. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That after the words " 25 per cent." the words " and on and after 30th November, 1907, per ton (United Kingdom), 30s.," be added. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 183. Iron and Steel Tubes or Pipes (except riveted or cast) not more than 4 inches internal diameter; including Flexible Metal Tubes; Galloway and Vertical parallel Boiler Tubes; Water Bore Casings ; Wrought Iron Fittings for pipes, free. 6829 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I was asked by a number of honorable members to make the item apply to pipes not exceeding 6 inches internal diameter, instead of 4 inches as stated in the item. I have heard no good reason why that should not be done, and I move - That the figure "4," line 2, be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figure "6." Amendment agreed to. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That after the word "Wrought," line 5, the words "and Malleable" be inserted. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 184 (Rolled Iron or Steel Beams, &c.) agreed to. Postponed item 185.Bolts, Nuts, Rivets, and Washers, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That after the words "30 per cent." the words " and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent." be inserted. That after the words " 25 per cent." the words " and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 20 per cent." be added. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 186. Barbed Wire, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent. 6830 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I had thought of proposing duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent., but I am prepared in this case to accept duties of 25 per cent. and 15 per cent. 6830 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Why not make the duty the same as that on wire-netting? 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - This is very different from wire-netting. 6830 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I am reminded by this item that on a previous occasion we had a big fight, and decided then that wire-netting, in connexion with which there is a big local industry, employing many hands, should be dutiable at 5 per cent. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member knows the circumstances under which that was agreed to. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - On the principle on which we have acted throughout, I am willing to admit that there should be a duty of 10 per cent. on barbed wire. 6830 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 25 per cent. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Certainly the industry is not one of much importance. The manufacture of barbed wire involves merely the importing of wire, and with a machine twisting in the barb. There are not many person's engaged in the industry, whilst the wire-netting industry provides employment for comparatively a great many hands. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member should not use the duty on wire-netting to support his argument, because the chances are that I shall ask for the recommittal of that item. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Barbed wire and wire-netting are used practically by the same people, and both for fences, and yet an increased duty is proposed on barbed wire. I think that a duty of 10 per cent. would be sufficient, and it is really too much when compared with the duty on wire-netting. I should like to know if the Treasurer is prepared to accept 10 per cent. ? I am willing to agree to duties of 15 per cent. and 10 per cent. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - All right. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Then, I move - That after the words " 30 per cent." the words " and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent." be inserted. That after the words "20 per cent." the words "and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 10 per cent." be added. Amendments agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 190. Plates(except plain tin) and Sheets and Pipes and Tubes of any Metal, tinned, plated, polished or decorated, ad val., 15 per cent. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I wish to direct the attention of the Treasurer to a promise made that item 189 would be recommitted if the duties on machinery and machines were altered. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes, but we cannot recommit the item now. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I wish only to remind the honorable gentleman of the promise, and of the fact that reductions have since been made on machinery and machines. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Yes, I understand that. Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the word "tinned," line 3, be left out. That after the word "polished," line 3, the wordy " metal cased " be inserted. Item, as amended, agreed to. 6830 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I move - That the following new item be inserted : - " 190a. On and after 30th November, 1907, Antimony, known as star antimony, and antimonial and lead compounds, namely, type metal, linotype metal, anti-friction and plastic metals, ad val., 25 per cent." This is in connexion with an industry established at Balmain, and producing star antimony, &c. There is a system under which buyers in London will not buy here. The article goes to England, and has to be purchased there, and then is re-imported here for use. I do not think that that is a proper practice. It is about time it was stopped. That is why I am proposing this item. 6830 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - The Minister ought not to ask us to try to pass the Tariff promptly, and then spring these unexpected items on us, when we are doing our best to assist him. The proposal had better be postponed. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I want to get rid of this division to-night. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The Minister has to recommit one item in the division. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I am not sure whether I will recommit anything. 6830 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The honorable gentleman promised. 6830 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I said that I would have it altered, and I will see that that is carried out. 6831 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - We do not know how far the effects of this new proposal may extend. It may upset a whole industry. 6831 KNI 0 0 HARPER, Robert Mr Harper - Make it 15 per cent. 6831 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I will raise no objection, if the Treasurer will agree to a duty of 15 per cent, in the second column. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I will agree to that. 1 will make the rates 20 per cent, in the general Tariff, and 15 per cent, against the United Kingdom. Proposed new item amended accordingly, and agreed to. Postponed item 194. Bolts, Carriage (§ of an inch and under in diameter and 4 inches and under in length), ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. 6831 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - This item was postponed by me at the request of the honorable member for Boothby, who said that he desired to make further inquiry. I do not know that there is any objection to it now. Item agreed to. Postponed item 200. Droppers, patent steel of all lengths, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. 6831 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I propose to ask the Committee to negative this item. The articles will then come in, I believe, under a duty of 20 per cent, in another item. 6831 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - If the item is omitted, steel droppers will become dutiable at 25 per cent, and 20 per cent. Why should that be? 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Because they are made here in tens of thousands. 6831 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - There is no difficulty about making them, and a high duty is not required. The only effect will be to cause greater expense in fencing. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - They have not increased in price through being made locally. 6831 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I am certain that they will be made more expensive by a high duty, but, having protested, I shall not detain the Committee longer, as it is not a large item. 6831 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- Some honorable members who are away would probably take a very different view of this proposal. There has been no intimation that these articles were to be transferred to a more highly dutiable item. It is a dangerous practice to make that proposal on a Friday afternoon, when a number of honorable members have gone away. I have seen nothing published to indicate that the Treasurer intended to take this step. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - When the item was postponed, I said that I intended to make an alteration, and put these articles into another item. That was really why it was postponed. 6831 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - lt is a big jump from 5 per cent, and free to 25 per cent, and 20 per cent. Sir JOHN FORREST (Swan) [5.io"|. - I cannot understand the Treasurer proposing to put a high duty on an article which is so much in use for fencing all over Australia. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Tens of thousands of them are made all over the Commonwealth. 6831 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Then how was it that no request for a duty was preferred to the Tariff Commission? The protectionist section of the Commission recommended that they should be free. The free-trade section, on some principle of their own, recommended a 10 per cent, duty. The articles were free previously. The Government should give some very good reasons for proposing to increase the duty so greatly. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I said when .1 postponed the item that I was going to raise the duty. 6831 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Not, surely, to such an extent as is now proposed. 6831 KI9 Barker 0 0 LIVINGSTON, John Mr LIVINGSTON .- I hope the Treasurer will not insist on raising the duty on steel droppers to 25 per cent. All over Australia it is necessary to use them for fencing, and it is often difficult to get posts. These articles should be allowed to come in free, if anything does. 6831 JYR Fawkner 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr FAIRBAIRN .- The Treasurer might make the rates 15 per cent, in the General Tariff and 10 per cent, against the United Kingdom. 6831 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I will make them 20 per cent, and 15 per cent. 6831 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr FAIRBAIRN - A great many of these articles are made here now. The metal comes in free, and there is not a great. deal of difficulty in moulding it into droppers. They were free under the old Tariff, and we might now give a small duty. 6832 KVJ Bass 0 0 STORRER, David Mr STORRER . - We have imposed duties of 25 per cent. (General' Tariff) and 20 per cent. (United Kingdom) on kindred items, and these articles ought to stand the same amount. They can be made here. When the. matter was previously referred to, I stated that they could be 'made here well. I am willing to vote for duties of 20 per cent, and 15 per cent., if the Treasurer is agreeable. 6832 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS .- The Treasurer asks the Committee to strike the item out. Therefore we must either accept the item as it stands, with a duty of 5 per cent, and free, by affirming that the item shall stand as printed, or else, if we negative the item, we will leave it to the sweet will of the Treasurer to include the articles in any other item he likes. In those circumstances, it will be difficult for any honorable member to move for duties of 15 per cent, and 10 per cent. 6832 JOC Boothby 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR .- 1 suggest that this item be placed on the same scale as item 184, namely, 17& pei cent, and 12 J per cent. Each item represents about the same amount of manipulation of the raw material. 6832 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - To stop debate, I accept the suggestion. Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That after the words " 5 per cent." the words "and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 17^ per cent.," be inserted. That after the word "free" the words "and on and after 30th November, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 12^ per cent.," be added. Sir JOHN FORREST (Swan) [5.18I.- T notice that standards and steel fencing, item 216, are 5 per cent., and free. Why should we place a different duty on another portion of what is practically the same fence? I shall certainly vote against any alteration being made in the duty on droppers. 6832 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I have here a memorandum which states that if item 200 were struck out, as was suggested, it would be neces-sary to reconsider item 216, and that standards and pillars are very similar to droppers, but are more easily made. If an alteration be made in item 200, it will be necessary to recommit item 216 in order that the duties on that item may be increased to 17^ per cent., and i2L oer cent. 6832 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- The Treasurer reminds me of certain sellers of fish in my country who always ask about double what they expect to get, and ultimately philanthropically hand over the goods at far more than their value. I rose merely to point out that important alterations are being made in the Tariff in the absence of honorable members who have gone away to seek that relaxation to which they are entitled. Amendments agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 210 (Traps) agreed to. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the following new item be inserted : - " 210a. Rivets bifurcated, on and after 30th November, 1907," free. 6832 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - It seems very strange that bifurcated rivets cannot be made here. 6832 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - These are patent rivets. Proposed new item agreed to. * Postponed item 213. Scrap iron and Steel, and, subject to Departmental by-laws, Materials foi use as Scrap Iron, free. * To continue only until the coming into force of Division VI. (a), Metals. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the asterisk be left out. 6832 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I do not know whether, on the striking out of the asterisk, the footnote can be consequently struck out. 6832 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The "Chairman has ruled that the striking out of an asterisk destroys the footnote. 6832 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - But if, after the asterisk has been struck out, the footnote remains, it will prove confusing. 6832 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - When the asterisk disappears, the footnote can have no meaning. Amendment agreed to. Item, as amended, agreed to. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the following new item be inserted : - " 220a. Steel, and steel rimmed wheels, of over 16 inches diameter in the tread, for trucks and waggons, and all steel parts for such wheels, on and after 30th November, 1907, free." 6832 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- I feel some concern for the Mother Country in connexion with this item. . 6832 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Then let us make the duty 5 per cent, and free. 6832 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I do not believe in preference. The Prime Minister said the other night that some honorable members were against every country but their own, and I think that the Treasurer is quite right in proposing that these articles shall be admitted from all countries. 6833 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Make the duty 5 per cent. and free. 6833 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - If honorable members think that the general Tariff should be 5 per cent. with no duty against Great Britain I have no objection. I ask leave to amend my amendment in that direction. Proposed new item amended accordingingly, and agreed to. Postponed item 221. Tin plates, plain, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. 6833 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I would point out that tinned copper or all tinned sheets should be included in this item. They were on the free list under the old Tariff, but they appear to have been made dutiable owing to the arrangement of duties under the Tariff now before us. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the word "Tin" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word "Tinned." Amendment (by Mr. Dugald Thomson) agreed. to - That after the word " plates " the words " and tinned sheets " be inserted. Item, as amended, agreed to. Postponed item 225. Wire cloth, wire gauze, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.; (United Kingdom), free. 6833 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I propose to negative this item. I take this course with a view to embodying these materials in item 171. They will then be dutiable at 25 per cent. under the general Tariff, and at 20 per cent. under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. 6833 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I should like to know why the Treasurer proposes to adopt this course? 6833 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Because these materials are being made in the Commonwealth in considerable quantity, and ought therefore to be protected. 6833 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- Some days ago I asked the Treasurer to postpone this item because I was aware that a large quantity of wire gauze and wire cloth was being manufactured in Australia. The Treasurer himself is now in possession of several samples. There are about 200 men engaged in the industry, and I think that the item should be omitted with a view to its inclusion under manufactures of metals. Item negatived. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the consideration of postponed items 152, 153, and 154 be further postponed until the remaining duties have been dealt with, 6833 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS .- The other day the Treasurer stated that he would not proceed with the consideration of the duty upon stripper harvesters until he had laid upon the table of the House a memorandum relating to the salient points of the new protection proposals of the Government. Are we to infer from this motion that the announcement of those proposals is to be postponed until the remainder of the Tariff has been dealt with ? 6833 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I cannot say. I do not know what the Prime Minister intends to do. 6833 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS - It looks very much like it. Motion agreed to; items postponed. Division VIa. - Metals and Machinery. To come into operation on dates to be fixed by Proclamation, and exempt from duty in the meantime. Proclamation to issue so soon as it is certified to Parliament by the Minister that the Manufacture to which the Proclamation refers has been sufficiently established in the Commonwealth. 229. Iron and Steel - Scran Iron and Steel, and Pig Iron, ad val., 12½ per cent. Ingots; Blooms; Slabs; Billets; Puddled Bars and Loops; or like crude Manufactures, less finished than Iron or Steel bars, but more advanced than Pig Iron (except Castings), ad val., 12½ per cent. Bar; Rod; Angle; Tee; Sheet and Plate (plain) ; Wire and Hoop, ad val., 12½ per cent. Mowers ; Reapers ; and Reapers and Binders, ad val.,17½ per cent. Iron and Steel Tubes and Pipes, not dutiable under Division VI., ad val., 12½ per cent. 6833 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I informed some honorable members before they left for their homes this afternoon that I intended to ask the Committee to merely complete the consideration of Division VI. of the Tariff, and under the circumstances it would scarcely be fair for me to proceed with the consideration of Division VIa. At the same time, I should very much like to do so. 6834 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - If the Treasurer did so, it would only cause more trouble next week. 6834 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have been asked to push on with Division VIa., but under the circumstances I do not feel justified in doing so, and consequently I shall report progress. Progress reported. 6834 bill Assent reported. 6834 special adjournment Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Monday next. 6834 adjournment 6834 Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 6834 KXO Maranoa 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE . - I desire to know the business to which the Treasurer purposes to give precedence on Monday? 6834 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The first business will be the consideration of Division VIa. of the Tariff. Question resolved in the affirmative. 6834 17:43:00 House adjourned at 5.43 p.m.