1908-05-13 3 2 0 REPS 11050 0 HouseofRepresentatives. 1908-05-13 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 11050 petition Mr. WATSON presented a petition from certain boot manufacturers carrying on business in New South Wales, praying the House not to make the amendment requested by the Senate in item 353, paragraph b (kid and patent, and enamelled leather). Petition received and read. 11050 Questions 11050 11050 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - In last Saturday's issue of Sydney Truth appears the following statement - Attention is directed to a movement on the part of the Photographic Material Supply Houses. The four principal houses of the trade in Sydney are Messrs. Baker and Rouse, Messrs. Small and ' Co., Harrington and Co. Ltd., and J. H. Squires and Co. - the three former have branches or agencies in Melbourne. The main anxiety of a photographer is to secure a continuous supply of satisfactory dry plates and paper. 11050 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Is the quotation necessary for the purposes of the question ? 11050 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - Yes, Mr. Speaker. I wish to show that a combination exists, and to draw the attention of the Attorney-General to it. Those who purchase from the . suppliers bind themselves by an agreement which says - We, the undersigned Dealers, agree to observe and abide by the following. In view of this statement as to a trustification for the plunder of the Australian nation, will the Attorney -General have a searching investigation made as to its truth, and commence legal . proceedings against the firms mentioned, if they are acting in violation of the provisions of the Australian Industries Preservation Act? 11050 KFK Protectionist 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If the honorable member will furnish me with a copy of the paragraph to which he has referred, I shall be pleased to look into the matter. 11050 Newspaper Subvention- Proposed Cablegrams to Great Britain 11050 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I wish to know from the Minister representing the Prime Minister if there is any truth in the report published in the local press that the Government has agreed to pay a heavy subvention to the London Standard Newspaper Company for the weekly issue of news relating to Australia? 11050 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - A question, upon notice dealing with this matter appears on today's business- paper. 11050 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Question No. 5 deals with the matter, and I cannot allow it to be anticipated. Later - 11050 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - On Wednesday last the honorable member for Wentworth. moved for a return showing the publications which have received payment from the Government for services in connexion with the advertisement of Australia. I asked if I should be in order in submitting an amendment requiring that the return should also show the arrangements made with, and the payments made to Mr. John Plummer bv the Reid-McLean Administration. The right honorable member for East Sydney then said - I shall give notice to move to-morrow for a return giving the information desired by the honorable member for Corio. As notice of a motion has not been given by the right honorable member, as promised, I desire to know whether I am now precluded from submitting the amendment which I wished to move on that occasion ? Mr. SPEAKER.- The honorable member will recollect that, under our Standing Orders, notice is required of any motion. But if he will look at the business-paper he will observe that the motion proposed by the honorable member for Wentworth is set down for to-day. When that is called on it will be competent for the honorable member to move the addition of the words that he desires. Until it is called on, the honorable member cannot move an amendment. 11050 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - Then I give notice of my intention to move to amend the motion of the honorable member for Wentworth by striking out the words " received payment from the" with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " and the persons who received payment from." 11051 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - As a personal explanation, I wish to say that the right honorable member for East Sydney is desirous that I should amend the motion to which the honorable member for Corio has referred, with -a view to meeting the honorable member. It is perfectly immaterial to me whether he moves an amendment upon my motion, or whether it is amended on my own motion. 11051 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - The leader of the Opposition promised, on Thursday last, te move in the direction indicated ; but he evidently forgot to do so. 11051 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - He did forget. It is not always easy to remember these details. I am perfectly willing that my proposal should be amended in the direction desired by the honorable member for Corio; but I assure him that action in -that direction would have been taken without any interference upon his part. 11051 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - Without trenching on questions which have been put upon the business-paper by the honorable member for Maranoa, I wish to ask the Treasurer, as representing the Prime Minister, whether, In considering the very excellent object in view - that of sending information by cablegram to the Mother Country regarding Australian affairs - he will take into consideration a larger scheme than that of supplying any one newspaper with Australian news? I refer to a scheme which would provide for the transmission of cablegrams which would be open to the whole of the British press. As I have said, I do not desire to trench in any way upon the questions which appear on the notice-paper ; I simply ask whether the Government will take that point into consideration in dealing with the matter ? 11051 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The Prime Minister has been considering this question. I am not in a position to say how far it has advanced.' But I will communicate to my honorable colleague the question which lias been asked by the right honorable member, and. I have no doubt that to-morrow a reply will be furnished. As far as I am aware, however, the whole matter is still under consideration. 11051 11051 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Last week the Treasurer was good enough to say that he deplored the lobbying in connexion with the Tariff going on within the precincts of the House, and I, therefore, ask him whether he is aware of any results following the issue of a circular, dated 31st October, 1907, sent out by the Victorian Chamber of Manufactures, which has evidently reduced lobbying to a fine art. The circular reads - Members are again reminded of the necessity of placing before as many protectionist members of the Federal Parliament as possible, all the information and reasons why the duties proposed should be maintained or amended in any way. When their respective items are under consideration of the House, members are particularly urged to be alert. The secretary and Tariff Committee of the Chamber are in daily attendance at Parliament House to carry out the desires of the manufacturers- 11051 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - So are the agents of the importers. 11051 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Yes; but while we have heard so much about them, we have heard nothing of the lobbying to which the honorable member for Wentworth is directing attention. 11051 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The circular continues - and representatives of each industry should be present when their items are being considered, and it is especially necessary that the secretary should be kept well posted up as to the requirements of the members. 11051 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have not seen the circular which the honorable member has just read, but I conceive that there is no harm in issuing such a circular, and, indeed, look upon it as a proper course to take. I know nothing of the lobbying referred to, and hope that the honorable member did not receive the circular to-day from the secretary to a free-trade organization. 11051 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - I did not. 11051 11051 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Is it the intention of the Minister of Trade and Customs to postpone the proclamation in respect to the size of grain bags? 11051 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - No. 11051 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs, without notice, the following questions - Whether an arrangement has been entered into between the Minister and the Premiers of the several States, whereby cornsacks will be uniform 'in size, and limited to contain an estimated weight not exceeding 200 lbs. ? Whether the Minister has, in view of such an arrangement being confirmed, decided to withdraw the proclamation previously intended to come into operation on the 15th inst. ? Will the Minister, in determining upon any action in this connexion, provide, that if arrangements as suggested be made, they will include sugar sacks equally with those intended for other purposes? 11052 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - The honorable member, this morning, was good enough to tell me privately of his intention to ask these questions, to which the answers are - Whilst there appeared to be unanimity of sympathy and opinion as to the restriction of cornsacks in the direction indicated, no definite arrangement was arrived at. I have no doubt, however, that the States will take action in aid of the object we have in view. There is no intention to withdraw the proclamation, which will become operative on Friday, 15th inst. I believe any action of the States in the direction of enforcing special railway rates on bags containing over 200 lbs. will necessarily include sugar sacks. 11052 11052 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I desire to ask the Treasurer a question, without notice, whether in view of the very protracted character of the debates upon the Senate's requests upon the Tariff, he proposes to take such steps as will bring those debates to a speedy termination ; or whether he will permit them to continue during the whole of the remainder of the session ? 11052 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I am not, nor is the Government, desirous of continuing the debates upon the Tariff. 11052 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - What about the " stonewall " last week? 11052 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The continuation of the debates is due to another section of the House. 11052 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - That was not the case last week. 11052 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - As far as I am personally concerned, I wish the Tariff were out of hand. But I cannot prevent those honorable members who desire to debate the question from doing so. The debates will go on in the ordinary way, and it will depend upon honorable members themselves as to how long the proceedings upon the Tariff continue. 11052 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I also should like to ask the Treasurer whether he can give the House any information as to what steps the Government intend to take with the object of bringing the debates upon the Tariff to a conclusion? Will the Government say whether they intend definitely to fix a day next week when the Senate's requests shall be finally disposed of? 11052 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - This week. 11052 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - Will the Government determine that the House shall, if necessary, sit on Saturday, or on any given day, right on until the consideration of the Senate's requests is concluded? 11052 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member for Kennedy is, . in consequence of his duties as Chairman of Committees, confined to the chair for a very long time, as I also am through being in charge of the Tariff. No doubt, the work has become very irksome to him. I hope that we shall be able to finish our work on the Tariff by next Tuesday or Wednesday, and, if it De possible, that will be done. Honorable members opposite, judging by their outcries, are extremely anxious about this matter, but they are not going to disturb me in the slightest degree. I shall carry the Tariff through in the ordinary way. 11052 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON - Following up the Minister's answer to the last question, I desire to' ask him whether he does not think that he has made a misstatement of fact in alleging that honorable members on this side of the Chamber have delayed the Tariff. Is it not a fact within the Treasurer's own knowledge that several honorable members on this side of the House have refrained from speaking, in order to expedite the passage of the Tariff, whilst honorable members on his own side have continued speaking for the purpose of prolonging the debates? 11052 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE -In reply to the honorable member, I have to state that it is scarcely right to say that any honorable members on this side of the House have endeavoured to prolong the debates. That statement is not correct, so far as I know. I do not say that the whole of the debating has come from the members of the Opposition. What I do say is that a large proportion of it has come from that quarter - from the Opposition corner. As far as the Government are concerned, we shall proceed as expeditiously as is reasonably possible to complete the Tariff, and I hope that we shall be able to do so by Tuesday or Wednesday next. 11052 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - With reference to the fact that the duties have been collected from the public for the last eight or nine months, and in view of the promise of the Government that the system which has been described as " the new protection " shall be applied to the new Tariff, I wish to ask the Treasurer whether the measure which is to carry that good policy into operation has yet been prepared, and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Government to submit the Bill to Parliament so that it may be passed into law without delay? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I recognise, and have always recognised - and I have referred to the fact several times - that the new protection policy is a part of our Tariff proposals j and I venture to think that if I had not given promises to that effect the Tariff would not have been dealt with as expeditiously or as fairly as has been the case. With reference to another part of the right honorable member's question, I have to say that, as he is aware, there is a certain case which is now sub judice - being under the consideration of the High Court - and the Government are unable to complete the Bill referred to until judgment in that case is delivered. The Prime Minister said the other night, however, that the Government are quite ready to complete their Bill. 11053 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Is the Bill ready, subject to any alteration that may be necessary? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The Bill cannot be completed until the judgment of the High Court is given. f 11053 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - But is it ready, subject to any alteration? Have the Government got the Bill drafted? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I say that the Government cannot complete the Bill until the decision is given. 11053 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - I recognise that. 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - But the Prime Minister has given his promise, and, as far as I know, the Bill is completed as far as is possible. 11053 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I understand that another place has adjourned until the 20th inst. with a view to then resuming its deliberations iri connexion with the Tariff. I should like to ask the Treasurer whether he will endeavour to expedite the business of this House so as to enable the Senate to proceed with the consideration of the Tariff when it re-assembles, and to allow honorable members here to return to their homes on Saturday next, and to remain there until the other Chamber has completed its work? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I do not like to definitely promise that honorable members will be able to return to their homes on Saturday and to remain there until the " Senate has completed its consideration of the Tariff, because, in this matter, honorable members who reside at a great distance from Melbourne, have to be considered. But the Government are endeavouring to get the consideration of the Tariff completed so that it may be ready for the Senate when that Chamber re-assembles. 11053 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I do not think that the Government are doing that. The Treasurer himself postpones one item after another. 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member is scarcely right in making that statement. When I wish to have an item postponed for a definite purpose, surely I am at liberty to move in that direction ! Further, the postponement of an item "does not delay the consideration of the Tariff. 11053 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I understood the Treasurer to say that the honorable member for West Sydney was at fault when he said- 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did not say anything of the kind. 11053 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Then I will ask the Treasurer straight out whether it is not a fact that of his own volition a number of items in the Tariff were postponed ? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - So far only two items have been postponed, one because I desired an opportunity to reconsider it, and another because the Opposition wished it to be postponed. There may have been a third item in respect of which a similar course was taken, but I am not sure. 11053 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - As the Treasurer has expressed a desire to consult the convenience of honorable members who reside in other States, will he extend a little consideration to those who are so far removed from their homes that they can return there only after Parliament has been prorogued - I refer to the representatives of Queensland, Western Australia, and Tasmania? Will he consider the possibility of so expediting business as to allow them to leave Melbourne by the end of the month ? 11053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Honorable members should know, and, I believe, do know, that the Government desire to dispose of the remaining business as soon as possible. But I must draw attention to this fact, that yesterday we did not sit for a very good reason, and one as to which I am sure no honorable member would offer any objection. Had it not been for the very unforeseen and sad event which prompted that adjournment, the House would have sat yesterday, and would probably have disposed of a great deal of business. I hope to be able to return the Tariff to the Senate on Tuesday next, or, at the latest, on Wednesday. 11054 11054 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - - 1 desire to ask the Treasurer whether it is a fact .that there are vacancies in the Civil Service of Papua, and, if so, what steps the Government are taking to fill them ? 11054 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The matter is under the consideration of the Public Service Commissioner. I do not know whether he has made any report up to the present time. The question is in the hands of the Prime Minister. 11054 11054 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I wish to ask the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, whether he is prepared to communicate to the House the substance of the report which he has received from his officials relating to the importation of inferior guns from Belgium. 11054 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - In reply to the honorable member, I wish to say that no definite report has yet been received. We are making inquiries into the matter, and we find that the task is a very difficult one, because no assistance" has been received from those who have complained. But we have asked them to help us in every way that they can, and it is our earnest desire to prevent, if possible, the importation of inferior guns. Immediately I obtain definite information upon the matter, I shall be glad to advise the honorable member. 11054 11054 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - I desire to ask the Treasurer whether he is aware that the Opposition " push " are intriguing with honorable members sitting ' behind the Government 11054 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I must ask the honorable member not to describe in that way honorable members sitting in the Opposition corner. 11054 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - Then I desire to ask the Treasurer whether he is aware that the Opposition corner party - the anti-socialistic party, or the Constitutional party - are intriguing to oust the Government from office, and to instal the right honorable member for Swan as the head of a new Ministry, with the honorable member for Kooyong filling the position of Treasurer? 11054 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr Liddell - I desire to ask you, sir, whether the word " intriguing " is a proper one to use in that relation? 11054 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The honorable member thinks that they are doing it openly 11054 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If any honorable member, who conceives that the term can> be applied to him, objects to its use, I shall ask the honorable member for Maranoa to withdraw it. 11054 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - I do not know any other term to apply to the action of members of the Opposition corner. 11054 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In answer to the honorable member's question, I may say that I have heard certain rumours, but I have no personal knowledge of their accuracy. Honorable members of the Opposition corner have not yet approached me in reference to the matter. 11054 11054 JSM ALP 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr THOMAS BROWN - I wish to ask the Treasurer whether he is aware that a large number of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic extensions in New South Wales, which have been approved, are " held up "' because the money voted for these purposes has been exhausted, and that in consequence great public inconvenience is being, suffered. If so, what steps does he propose to take to remedy this condition of affairs? 11054 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I am very anxious to get the Additional Estimates passed. The honorable member knows perfectly well that a great deal more money has been required for these extension works than was provided upon the EstimatesTnChief. 11054 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Twice as much. 11054 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I cannot state exactly how much ; but it must be remembered that all the Treasurer has to work on, until the Additional Estimates are passed, is the Treasurer's Advance, and that Advance cannot meet every demand until it is recouped by amounts upon the Additional Estimates. I am exceedingly anxious to have those Estimates passed.. They are, no doubt, very large, and the works to which the honorable member refers, and' many other works, have to be carried out; but, as I say, the Treasurer's Advance cannot meet all such demands. That is the reason for the delay, a.nd the sooner the Additional Estimates are passed- the sooner the money will be available. J have gone to considerable length - indeed, I have gone as far as I possibly can, financially - in> allowing tenders to be called for works for which the money has not yet been voted, so that no delay shall take place after the Estimates are passed. 11055 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers - Papua - Ordinance of 1908 - Mining. Defence Acts - Military Cadet Corps - Substituted Regulation 30 (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1908, No. 52. 11055 Questions 11055 11055 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Was the following instruction issued to his officers on the 12th September : - " Printing Paper, coloured, for covers of weekly publications and similar productions, registered for transmission through the post, may be deemed * News, and dealt with under item 35215 under security " ? Is it a fact that the effect of this instruction was that the publications described could get their cover papers in free if British, or 10 per cent, if Foreign, instead of paying 15 per cent, or 20 per cent, under the Tariff? Is it a fact that, without the above instruction, the said cover papers would have been dutiable under the Tariff at 15 per cent, or 20 per cent, according as they were of . British or Foreign origin? Is it a fact that the importers were permitted to get their said goods free owing to the Minister "deeming" them to properly belong to the following- item of the Tariff : - " 352D. Printing, in Rolls or Folios known as Newspaper, to be used exclusively for Newspapers under Departmental by-laws, in sizes not less than 20 x 25 inches or its equivalent." ? Did the Minister, when the paper duties were passing the House, take the House into his confidence as to the "instructions" - vide also Notice Paper, date 6th May, 1908 - which he had issued to his Department to " deem " otherwise dutiable articles free? Have the effects of the Minister's " instructions" ever been made public? Could the papers in connexion with these matters be laid upon the table of the House? In the Minister's answer of the 6th instant, he said that the Sydney Bulletin was specially mentioned in that " instruction," which had the effect of allowing in free that journal's otherwise dutiable super-calendered paper, because - to use the Minister's words - " the question first came up in regard to that particular paper." Could the Minister say who first approached the Government in the interests of that paper? Did the Minister point out to the Sydney Bulletin that super-calendered paper was, or could be, made locally under a duty, and that consequently so strongly Protectionist a paper could well afford to set an example by buying its raw material from Australian manufacturers? 11055 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - The answers to' the honorable member's questions are as follow : - Yes. No. No. The view taken was that the paper in question was printing paper, and consequently there was no option but to deliver free. There was no question of taking the House into confidence in this instance more than in the thousands of other cases which have arisen from time to time. As a rule, when a question as to rate of duty is submitted, the Comptroller-General decides the matter at once. Any person not concurring in such decision can at once appeal to the Minister, and if not satisfied with the latter's ruling, has a short and easy way of applying to the Court for final review. Yes. No objection to furnish them for perusal of the honorable member. The question was submitted to the Minister in the first instance by the Comptroller-General, who informs me that he received a telegram from the State Collector of New South Wales on the subject generally of the rate of duty to be charged on such papers. Nothing is known of the reasons why the Collector applied to the Comptroller-General on the point, beyond the fact that the instance under remark was one only of many hundreds of similar cases. The Minister had nothing to do with the Bulletin in the matter, and beyond approving of a recommendation made to him by the Comptroller-General, was not otherwise interested therein. The same question arose on the same date (4th September) in regard to other magazines in other States, and similar instructions were given in such instances. It may be explained that the only reason why the authority of the Minister was specially asked in this instance was, because, as originally introduced, the exemption was to be made under Ministerial by-law, otherwise the decision would have been given as a matter of course without, reference to the Minister. 11055 11055 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDOUGALL asked the Minister . of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whether it is not true that the manufacturers and importers of manures have formed a business combine with a view to stifle competition and raise prices to the farmers and gardeners ? Is he aware that since such combine has come into existence the price of superphosphates has been increased by 7s. a ton, and that the said superphosphates contain 2 per cent, less water soluble phosphoric acid than formerly, and are consequently 16s. a ton dearer to purchasers than last season \ also, that the combine has raised the interest on promissory notes due by 1 per cent. ? Does he know that the combine has refused absolutely to sell manures to farmers' unions and associations at a lower rate than it sells to the individual buyer, thus reversing the business tactics of the manure companies when selling in open competition with each other? Is he aware that the firms constituting the combine advertise on the lines of a single business concern; and also, that when an agent of the combine violates the selling terms of the ring by undercutting a rival agent in price, the said agent will be dismissed without a certificate of character? . Has it come to his knowledge that even while certain local manufacturers were touting for a duty on artificial manures they had already entered into combination with the importers? As a manure combine is prejudicial to the best interests of the farmers and gardeners of the Commonwealth, will he use whatever constitutional means he may have to put a stop to its unfair trading? Will he undertake to extend the scope of his inquiry beyond the city offices and agents of the companies concerned in the combine, and when such inquiry shall be complete, will he print the detailed result for the information of the public ? 11056 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - In reply to the honorable member's questions, I have to state that inquiries were made some time ago, but the information obtained was not sufficient to establish the existence of a combine. Now that an amending Act has been passed, further investigations will be made. 11056 11056 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH askedthe Minister of Defence, upon notice - Whether the sum of £122 3s. 6d. was spent by the Defence Department in the purchase of uniforms for a military tournament at Aldershot, England? Were any Commonwealth troops, then present, and what was the special occasion which caused this liberality with Commonwealth funds ? Is it proposed to repeat this expenditure? 11056 KDR Protectionist 1 0 EWING, Thomas Mr EWING - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - 1, 2, and 3. Uniforms to the value mentioned were loaned for use at a Military Tournament, Aldershot, England, the display being intended to be representative of all the Forces of the Empire. No Colonial troops were present. I am not quite sure, but I think I am correct in saying that the occasion was in connexion with military charities. These uniforms have since been returned without cost to the Commonwealth. 11056 11056 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDOUGALL asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whether, in view of recent statements regarding the unscrupulous practices of the British shipping ring, he has taken steps to guarantee that goods foreign-made and dumped into Britain will not be shipped to Australia and landed as goods of British manufacture admittable under the low preference duties? 11056 JX7 Protectionist 1 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - In reply to the honorable member's question, I desire to say that every effort is being made to insure the preference being allowed only in proper cases. 11056 bill In Committee (Consideration of Senate's requests resumed from 8th May, vide page 1 1046) : Item 303. Timber, viz. : - Timber, undressed, n.e.i., in sizes of 12 inches x 6 inches (or its equivalent) and over per 100 super, feet, is. 6d. ; and on and after 6th December, 1907 6d. . . . . Request. - Make the duty is. Upon which Sir William Lyne had moved - That the requested amendment be made, with the following modification : - " Add new sub-item : - Oregon, undressed, in sizes of 12 inches x 6 inches (or its equivalent) and over, per100 super feet, 6d." 11056 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I have had considerable difficulty in framing certain amendments which I desire to propose in connexion with the timber duties; and, therefore, I desire that there shall be a postponement of these items, with a view to circulating the proposals to-morrow. I move - That the further consideration of the requests made in regard to item 303 (Timber) be postponed. Motion agreed to; requests postponed. Item 304. Wicker, Bamboo and Cane, alt articles, n.e.i., made of, whether partly or wholly finished, ad val. (General Tariff) 45 per cent., and on and after 6th December, 1907, 35 per cent.; (United Kingdom) 40 per cent., and on and after 6th December, 1907, 25 per cent. Request. - Make the duty (United Kingdom) 30 per cent. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made. 11056 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON .- I should' like further information as to any special' advantage that is expected from' decreasing the margin of preference by 5 per cent. Is the request made, and agreed to by the Government, with a view to carrying out the pledges to the British people to give a substantial preference to British products?' Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Requested amendments in item 1306 (Wood, all articles made of) and in item 309 (Tool Handles) made. Item 312. Photograph Frames and Stands for Pictures, Picture Frames (on pictures or otherwise), ad val. 35 per cent. Request. - Insert the words "Of wood" after " (on pictures or otherwise) ". Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made. 11057 KXO Maranoa 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE .-I should like to have an explanation from the Treasurer as to the effect of this proposal. 11057 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - The Minister is proposing that we agree to the request made by the Senate. 11057 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I have just discovered that my copy of the schedule has been erroneously marked " accept the request," and. that the intention was that I should move that the request be not made. The Department advises me that the request ought to be rejected, inasmuch as its adoption would lead to great confusion. I shall, therefore, ask honorable members to vote against the motion. Question put. The Committee divided. 26 23 Majority ... ... 3 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Requested amendment made. Item 318. Bent Poles, rough. . . . Request. - Leave out " Bent," and after " Poles " insert " for Vehicles." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made. 11057 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- I should like to know at what rates straight poles, which, if the word "bent" be left out, will come under this item, are now dutiable. 11057 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - At the same rates as fixed under this item. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Requested amendment in item 319 (Bent Poles, dressed), made. Item 326 - Fancy Goods . . . . ad val. (General Tariff) 35 per cent., and on and after 7th December, 1907, 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom) 25 per cent. Requests. - Make the duties (General Tariff) 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom) 20 per cent. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendments be made. 11057 KXO Maranoa 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE . - In order to make the duty 20 per cent. all round, I move - That the modification "but that the duty (General Tariff) be made 20 per cent." be added. 11057 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - No preference? 11057 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - These are all foreign-made goods, and the preference of 5 per cent, is useless. The preference proposal is only a blind in this case. 11057 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - It was a wrench to me to agree to the reduction requested by the Senate. However, I did agree to it, and will stand by it; but I hope that the duty will not be further reduced. 11057 F4R South Sydney 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON . - I trust that the Committee will not reduce the duties further. We have imposed certain duties upon empty bottles under other items. This item includes cut-glass bottles that contain perfumes, &c. Local people who put up perfumes and so on will have to pay a heavy duty on the empty bottles, while if the duty on this item is unduly reduced the importers who bring in the full bottles will have a distinct advantage. That will be an injustice to those in Australia who put up that class of goods, importing the empty bottles, and having to compete with those who import the full bottles. Question - That the proposed modification upon the requested amendment in item 326 (Fancy Goods), be made - put. The Committee divided. 17 32 Majority ...... 15 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Modification negatived. Motion agreed to. Requested amendments made. Item 329. Pencils and Penholders of wood, free. And on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 329. Pencils of wood, but not including Pencils with metal or other clamps or attachments, also Penhandles of wood (including metal attachments for nibs), free. Item 330. School Pen and Pencil Sets and boxes, free. Request. - Leave out the items. 11058 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - The reason for the Senate's request is that these items do not appear in their proper place in the Tariff. I wish to have them dealt with together, and on the same lines. They should be included in another item. 11058 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - What course does the Minister propose to take with respect to the Senate's request? 11058 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I propose now to postpone the consideration of this item until we come to deal with item 357, referred to in the Senate's request No. 198. I shall then announce to the Committee what I propose to do with respect to the duties. I move - That the consideration of the requests in regard to items 329 and 330 be postponed until after the consideration of requests in item 357. 11058 L1H Hunter 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL .- Why should these items be postponed? I do not see why these articles should not be left where they are at present in the Tariff? 11058 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The honorable member will see that pencil cases, pen and pencil sets, and penholders, n.e.i., are dealt with in request No. 198, affecting item 357. 11058 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - They are included there with bill files and leather clips. 11058 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - All I can say is that the Treasurer needs very careful watching. 11058 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - This seems to me to be about the only place in the Tariff where these articles can really be dealt with together. The Senate proposes that they should be mixed up with other things elsewhere in the Tariff. 11058 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - This is really a departmental matter, and the officers of the Department have asked me to put these articles where the Senate has requested that they should be included. 11058 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - But what do the officers of the Department ask the Minister to do about the duties? Is the honorable gentleman going to tax these articles as proposed bv the Senate to the extent of 35 per cent. ? 11058 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is a matter I will consider before we reach item 357. 11058 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If the Minister will say that he proposes that these articles should continue to be free of duty I shall not object to the postponement of the consideration of the items as long as he pleases. 11059 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - With respect to duty they are left just as they are, where the Senate has elsewhere included them. 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I beg the honorable member's pardon. The Senate proposes that some should be taxed at 5 per cent, and some at 35 per cent. There is only one little sub-item that the Senate proposes should be duty free. If anything in the world should be duty free, surely it is these school requisites? I should like the Minister to say what he proposes to do about it. 11059 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I propose to postpone the consideration of these items until we come to deal with item 357. 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Will that be with a view to making all these articles free? As the Minister, apparently, is not disposed to give the Committee any satisfaction in the matter, I move - That all the words after the word "that" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "the requested amendment be not made." 11059 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member can attain the same object by voting against the motion. 11059 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY . - I think that the Minister should be able to give some information to the Committee. From a hurried survey of what is proposed by the Senate, I am of the opinion that no alteration with respect to duties is suggested. 11059 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - Here is one case. The item before the Committee refers to " pencils of wood, but not including pencils with metal or other clamps or attachments." These are made free. Other articles are made dutiable at 30 and 35 per cent. 11059 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The Senate's request makes more items free. 11059 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - This is really farcical. I have already told the honorable member that we are going to make some of these articles dutiable and others free, and surely he can take my word for the present and remind me of my promise when we get to the other item ! 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member said nothing of the kind. 11059 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I said so two or three times. 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member is making the farce if there is any farce. 11059 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I do not desire to say anything disagreeable, but the honorable member is really delaying the consideration of this item after I have acquainted him with my intention. 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am satisfied now that the honorable member has made a statement. Why did he not do so before? Motion agreed to; requests postponed. Requested amendments in item 333 (Jewellery unfinished, &c.) ; item 335 (Jewellery being machine made, Chain in the rough, &c.) ; item 336 (Jewellery, n.e.i.) ; and item 339 (Watches, Clocks, Src), made. Item 340. Watch and Clock Main and Hair Springs; Compasses of all kinds except, for external wear and except those of gold or silver or mounted in gold or silver ; Ships' Chronometers, Patent Logs, and Sounding Machines; Microscopes; Telescopes; Barometers and Thermometers' except advertising, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent.; (United Kingdom), free. Request. - Leave out " ; Barometers and Thermometers except advertising." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) pro posed - That the requested amendment be made. 11059 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Under what item will barometers and thermometers fall if we agree to the request? 11059 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - They will fall under the item "Glassware, n.e.i.," and will be dutiable at 25 and 20 per cent. 11059 L1H Hunter 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL .- I do not see why the. duties on these barometers and thermometers should be raised from 5 per cent, and free to 25 and 20 per cent. What is the reason for this sudden change of face on the Treasurer's part? I should like to hear an explanation before I record a vote. These are necessary articles which cannot be made here. 11059 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - We are told that they are all made in Queensland. 11059 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - Glass thermometers are used very extensively in hospitals. They are very expensive articles. Not only is their initial cost heavy, but they are constantly broken, and have to be replaced. The supply of thermometers is a heavy item of expenditure to nurses, medical men, and hospitals. I am satisfied that we shall do a great injustice if we make dearer these absolutely necessary articles. Every one knows that when a man is sick his temperature has to be taken frequently. 11060 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Does not the honorable member think that they can afford to pay a duty out of the profit of 500 per cent., which is obtained on these articles? 11060 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - That is the way in which the protectionist is continually talking. Does not the honorable member know that the price of the articles has been so arranged as to leave the lowest margin of profit? I should like to know the reason why the duties on these articles, which were fixed here after very careful consideration, is proposed to be considerably increased at the request of another place. 11060 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST . - I think that the Senate's requested amendment should not be made. We ought to encourage the use of these necessary instruments all over the country. A barometer is necessary nearly everywhere, especially in tropical districts, to give warning of storms, and the thermometer is in daily use by every one. I do not suppose that one could find a household without a thermometer. Why the Treasurer wants to impose an extra duty I do not know. I am sure that thermometers are not made here. Colonel Foxton. - Yes, they are. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I very much doubt the statement that good, reliable, and tested instruments are made in this country. Colonel Foxton. - They are made in Sydney and Brisbane. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - How many? Colonel Foxton. - Any number of them. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I should like ito see some of them. I think that the request of the Senate is altogether adverse to the progress of the country, and I shall vote against it. 11060 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON .- I think that I understand why the Treasurer, in common with other strong protectionists, is anxious to remove these articles from an item under which they bear a low duty, so that they will fall under another item which carries a high duty. I think that the explanation is that the protectionist microbe which gets into the blood of some protectionist, and sets up a fever, is considered worthy of special development. It has been suggested by some honorable members that this industry is carried on, not in Collingwood, as we are usually told, but in Sydney and Brisbane. Whether it is carried on in those places or not, I consider that those who are obliged to have recourse to the use of these instruments in hospitals, sick rooms, and elsewhere should be able to procure them at the lowest possible price. So far as I can see, the only effect of raising the duty will be to increase their cost to the users. I shall certainly oppose the motion. 11060 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - When this item was under consideration previously there was a long debate, and. it was very clearly proved that this glassware was made in Queensland, especially in Brisbane. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - How many articles do they make - two and a half in a year, I suppose? Colonel Foxton. - Oh, no. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I have not yet seen one. 11060 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I have made inquiries, and there is no doubt that in Queensland they have an industry. It is struggling at the present time; but it is producing very good articles indeed, and can produce pretty well all that are required. 11060 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr Liddell - What is the struggle of the industry compared with that of many persons for life? 11060 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE -I am quite satisfied that the industry is being carried on, and is turning out articles, which are well made and give great satisfaction. That is the reason why I have submitted the motion. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - This is some little tin-pot . industry in Brisbane. Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [3.50].- I do not understand why the right honorable member for Swan takes such strong exception to the proposed duty. The industry is not a tin -pot one, and what he has said shows that he knows nothing about it. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - How many high-class thermometers are made in Brisbane in a year? Colonel FOXTON.- Very many. I have seen many scores of such thermometers in the factory there. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - And the beautiful pocket thermometers, are they made there, too? Colonel FOXTON.- Yes. 11060 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Why should all who use these scientific instruments be required to pay high duties on them merely because a few are made in Brisbane? Colonel FOXTON. - I thought that the right honorable gentleman was a protectionist. 11061 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I am a protectionist; but I have not run mad about protection. Colonel FOXTON. - Let me read a letter which I have received from Messrs. J. and W. Wilson Ltd., the firm which manufactures these instruments in Brisbane - When this item was being debated in the House of Representatives previous to going to the Senate, it was insinuated that Clinical Thermometers could not be made in the Commonwealth. At the time I was under the impression that they were being made, but having no specific information on the subject, did not feel justified in contradicting the statement that they could not be made. Since then, I have seen clinical thermometers made in Australia. The letter continues - Now the same may be said again - It has been said - and I wish to impress upon you that as good (minute or half -minute). Clinicals as are made in any part of the world are made by Mr. J. B.. Arrighi, Redfern, Sydney. The writers are referring to a rival firm. 11061 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - But if the duty is imposed, they, as well as their rival, will benefit. Colonel FOXTON.- Quite so. They say - We will also make them when we find there is a demand for such articles, but at present the imported article is too cheap for a large trade to be done in them. 11061 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - " Too cheap!" Then they wish to make them dearer? Colonel FOXTON. - I can understand those who hold free-trade principles laughing at the idea; but my contention is that, since we have given protection to every other industry, this should be similarly treated. 11061 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - There is protection in regard to all other glass making. Why worry about this? ' Colonel FOXTON. - Why not protect the whole industry? The writers go on to say - and, besides, the Medical professions are prejudiced .against Australian-made Clinicals - 11061 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr Liddell - The honorable member has no proof of that. Colonel FOXTON. - even if offered al the same price as the imported article, they will not condescend to try them, and invariably demand Hick's English-made Clinicals - 11061 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - Because they are the best in the world. Colonel FOXTON.- or some other foreign makers who have a reputation for Clinicals, and the most effective way to dispel this prejudice against local-made instruments is to make the imported article more expensive, then the other can be offered at an advantageous price, and as soon as it becomes profitable to manufacture these or any other articles in Australia there will be no scarcity of competent hands to make them. During the debate, another member wished to know what standard we used, was it the Berlin, Paris, or London. Our standard instruments are all certified at the Kew Observatory, England, and each one is accompanied with a certificate of absolute accuracy, and all the instruments made by us correspond exactly with those standards, and standard temperatures, or standard weights, or measurements are the same whether in France, England, Germany, Australia, or any other part of the world. 11061 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Are these instruments sent to England to be tested? Colonel FOXTON- No. But the standard instruments with" which they are compared have been tested at Kew, London. The letter continues - We wish to impress upon you that we make Thermometers and Barometers of whatever design the exigencies of the case demands ; we have made Thermometers up to 30 feet in length for silos and deep oil and brewing vats, besides they are also made in Sydney and Melbourne. Then follow a number of testimonials as to the excellence of the firm's manufactures, with which I shall not trouble the Committee. 11061 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr Liddell - Is the honorable member prepared to give a certificate to the clinical thermometers which he says are manufactured in Australia? Colonel FOXTON.- Seeing that everything which the persons engaged in this industry have to buy is taxed to protect other industries, their business also should be protected. 11061 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - What about the wire-netting industry? Colonel FOXTON.- I have nothing to do with that at the present time. Honorable members who are of the medical profession show that they have a prejudice against the Australian-made article. 11061 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr Liddell - Not at all ; but we take an interest in the welfare of the people. Colonel FOXTON.-Have the medical members of the Committee tried Australian-made clinical thermometers? 11062 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - We have not seen one worth trying. Colonel FOXTON. - How are Australian-made clinical thermometers to prove their excellence if the medical profession persists in regarding them as not worth trying ? 11062 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - The manufacturers should do what Hicks did - make their thermometers so true as to be absolutely reliable. Colonel FOXTON. - How can their reliability be proved if the medical profession will not test them? 11062 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - We are willing to test them at any time. Colonel FOXTON.- There has been a prejudice against every Australian manufacture until a market has been found for it. Our wines were pronounced vinegar until persons on the other side of the world found them good, when they came into vogue, and were sought after by Australians themselves. So with other Australian manufactures. 11062 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - Is it not a fact that the Australian-made clinical thermometers are standardized under Government supervision at Brisbane? 11062 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Clinical thermometers have not yet been made at Brisbane. 11062 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr Wilson - That is so. How, then, could they be standardized there? Colonel FOXTON.- All scientific and graduated glassware made in Brisbane is properly tested and certified to, and when clinical thermometers are made, as they will be, they will be similarly standardized. The grading is everywhere a mechanical process, so that there can be no question as to its accuracy, the graduations being marked on the glass by a machine. I appeal to the Committee for justice to an Australian industry, to assist it in overcoming the prejudice which exists against everything not bearing a British hall-mark. 11062 L1H Hunter 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL .- The honorable member 'for Brisbane has spoken strongly on behalf of an industry existing in the electorate which he represents; but I hope that the Treasurer will agree to exempt from duty clinical thermometers used bv physicians and surgeons. 11062 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Why? 11062 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - Surgical appliances which could, to a certain extent, be made in this country, may be imported duty free, but, as has been shown, clinical thermometers are not made in the Commonwealth. Colonel Foxton. - Yes, they are made in Sydney. 11062 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - They were being made there under free-trade. 11062 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Even the Tariff of 1902 imposed no duty on clinical thermometers. 11062 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - At any rate, the Brisbane firm does not seem to be yet in the position to make these instruments. Very frequently a patient's life hangs by a hair, and everything then depends on the regular and accurate recording of his temperature. If the Treasurer . visited one of our hospitals, he could be shown miles of charts recording temperatures, which, in some cases, are taken, not from hour to hour, but every fifteen minutes. 11062 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Does the honorable member mean to say that we cannot make these little instruments here? 11062 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - It is a scientific instrument, and the Treasurer knows nothing about science. 11062 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I have had it used on me. 11062 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - I am sure that the Treasurer has great sympathy for the sick and the suffering, and I hope that since clinical thermometers, like cotton wool, which has been made free, are used chiefly for the suffering and the poor, he wilt agree to except them from the request. Any honorable member who professes to represent his fellow-workers should refuse to vote for a higher duty on clinical thermometers. 11062 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member has just been told that they can be made here. 11062 L1H 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL - The local- manufacturer in a letter which has been read on this subject, clearly indicates that if they are subject to a higher duty, they will be more expensive. He complains that he cannot at present make them because the imported instruments are sold at a verv low rate. It is well for the sake of suffering humanity that they are cheap. I move - That the following modification be made : - After "Telescopes" insert "and Clinical Thermometers." 11062 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON .- In support of the modification proposed bv the honorable member for Hunter, I would re- mind the Committee that, in the letter quoted by the honorable member for Brisbane, it is claimed that the industry to which the request relates is already established in Brisbane and Sydney, and it also exists, I understand, in Melbourne. Freetraders are invariably told by protectionists that the object of a protective tariff is to encourage the starting of industries and to help them over their infantile stages, and that once fairly started they do not need protection. Since this industry has been started, and .has apparently flourished and developed under free-trade conditions, the argument for protection in this case falls to the ground. Then we have the further naive admission by the manufacturers in Brisbane - an admission that we do not often obtain from our protectionist friends - that they desire an increased duty to enable them to charge a higher price, because they cannot compete against the low prices charged for the superior imported article. Here we have another protectionist ' fallacy exposed. Our protectionist friends opposite never fail to assure us that protection cheapens prices. These manufacturers point out that what they object to is cheapness - they object to the public being able to obtain these instruments at a low price. We are asked to impose a duty which will be practically prohibitive in its operation in order that local manufacturers may sell an inferior article at a higher price." We are here to see that the public are not robbed or unduly fleeced for the gain of any firm or individual, and we should be wanting in our duty if we accepted the request. I support the proposed modification. 11063 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - No great objection can be. taken to the proposed modification, but I shall expect honorable members to support the motion subject to that modification. Proposed modification agreed to. 11063 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON .- Are we now asked to agree to the Senate's request to strike out certain words? 11063 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Yes.' 11063 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON - Then I shall certainly oppose the motion. 11063 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - If the motion is lost, the modification will also go. 11063 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- If honorable members wish to vote against barometers being dutiable at more than 5 per cent, under the general Tariff, they should resist the motion. 11063 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - But a compromise was agreed upon. 11063 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The Minister certainly said that he would expect honorable members to help, him in carrying the motion if he agreed to the proposed modification, but, in reply, I did not hear anything that could be interpreted as being in the nature of a compromise. I think that honorable members are free to vote against the requested amendment. The honorable member for Brisbane said what was very much to the point, and whilst I do not know that , a case has been made out for taxing barometers, I consider that we have taken the sting out of the requested amendment by the modification providing for the insertion of the words " and clinical thermometers." Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [4.15].- I suggested to the Treasurer that he should accept the proposed modification as the controversy ranged chiefly round the question of whether or not clinical thermometers should be subjected to a higher duty. Before that modification was agreed to a number of honorable members who had listened to the previous debate left the chamber, and they will probably return under the impression that clinical thermometers are still affected by the request. I hope that it will be made clear that the Treasurer has gracefully given way in respect of those instruments, and that the motion now relates really to a request in respect of other instruments which were not even mentioned during the debate. 11063 L1H Hunter 0 0 LIDDELL, Frank Mr LIDDELL .- When I moved a ' modification of this request, I felt sure that the Treasurer would accept it. He was good enough to do so, and although he said that he would expect honorable members to agree to the request as modified, it was impossible for me to make any binding agreement with him. I made no agreement with the Treasurer, and I do not think he expected me to do so. 11063 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON . - I would point out that by rejecting the request, as a whole, we shall retain clinical thermometers in "this item, under which they are dutiable at 5 per. cent., as against the proposal that they should be dutiable at 25 per cent. On the other hand, if we agree to the request,_ as modified, we shall make all other thermometers, as well as barometers, dutiable at 25 per cent. I am not prepared to do that, and shall vote against the motion. 11064 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- Apart from clinical thermometers, the articles included in this item to which I attach much importance' are barometers. To levy a heavy tax upon these instruments, which are used by small coastal vessels, would subject that class of shipping to an increased disability. In this connexion, we must recollect that these vessels have to compete with ships which get their barometers free of duty. Seeing that lives at sea might be imperilled as the result of vessels not being equipped with barometers, surely we might place these articles upon the free list. Of course, oversea shipping companies do not care whether we impose an additional £3 upon their barometers or not. But there are many small coastal vessels which, as the result of the operation of such a duty, would purchase a cheaper and less efficient article. 11064 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Why does the honorable member use the term " less efficient " ? 11064 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Because a cheaper article is usually a less efficient one. We ought to see that small coasting vessels are not penalized in the way that is proposed. 11064 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Seeing tha they get their living in Australia, they surely ought to buy something Australian. 11064 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - They get their living off the coast of Australia, which is subject to very rapid weather changes. The honorable member for Brisbane knows that a great many small vessels, employing about two men, trade along the Queensland coast. Colonel Foxton. - They do not carry barometers. 11064 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Do not the schooners of the pearling fleets carry barometers? Colonel Foxton. - Hundreds of ketches do not carry those articles - vessels which are at sea for six weeks at a time. 11064 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Then it a verv Foolish policy for them to adopt. The little yachting that I have done has taught me the extreme value of using a barometer off the coast of New South Wales, where sudden changes from the south are always heralded by a sharp rise in that instrument. I suggest that the Treasurer should consider the coastal shipping of Australia, rather than the industry of making barometers in Brisbane. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment, as modified, made. Item 341. Kinematographs, Bioscopes, including sensitized and exposed films; Kine to scopes, n.e.i., ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. Request. - Insert "a" before " Kinematographs " ; leave out " including sensitized and exposed films"; insert "and" before " Kinetoscopes"; leave out " n.e.i." j insert new paragraph. Sensitized and exposed films for Kinematographs, Bioscopes, and Kine to scopes, free. 11064 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I have had several proposals made to me in reference to paragraph b of this item, but I really feel that the best course we can adopt is to disagree with the request of the Senate, both in respect of paragraphs a and b, and to retain the item in the form in which it left this Chamber. I therefore move - That the requested amendments be not made. 11064 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON . - I understood that it was the intention of the Government to agree to the request of the Senate, and the Treasurer might at least have favoured the Committee with the reason which has induced him. to depart from his former decision. 11064 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I did intend to agree with the request of the Senate irt paragraph a, and to propose certain amendments in paragraph b,' but there seems to be such a diversity of opinion in reference to the item that I think it is better to retain it in the form in which it left this House. 11064 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON - May I point out that these imported kinematographs, bioscopes, and kine to scopes are very valuable aids to the education of the community. They are used to reproduce the general characteristics of foreign countries. They serve to illustrate the habits, dress, and customs of the people of those countries, and also the scenery to be found there. It is the practice ' for schoolmasters to take their pupils to- places of amusement where these machines are in use, for the purpose of increasing their geographical knowledge. The children thus become just as familiar with the architecture, the type of people, and the general characteristics of distant' lands as they would be if they actually travelled through them. For a very small sum they can thus enjoy all the advantages incidental to travel, which, under ordinary circumstances, would involve a long voyage, and very considerable cost. Bv the use of kinematographs, bioscopes, and kine to scopes, all the scenes associated with these distant lands are brought vividly to their minds, and they thus derive a considerable educational benefit. I have also seen various processes of manufacture reproduced by means of these mechanical contrivances. For instance, I have seen pictures illustrative of the building of a large battleship, from the laying clown of the vessel to her launching. These pictures must come from abroad, and to impose a tax upon them is really to levy a tax upon education. I therefore move - That the following words be added - " except as to exposed films and kinematographs " ; and proposed new paragraph b. 11065 L0K Laanecoorie 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON . - We f.ll realize that we cannot produce in Australia scenes which can be obtained only in other parts of the world. Even the most rabid protectionist does not desire to prevent the films specified in this item from being admitted free, because we recognise the. advantage which their use confers upon the general community. But I would point out to the honorable member for Lang that sensitized films can be, and will be, made in Australia. Colonel Foxton. - It is the intention of the Senate that the films, both sensitized and exposed, shall be free. 11065 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I should like to differentiate between films of an educational character, and those which are known in the trade as " faked " films. The " faked " films can be made in Australia quite as well as they can be made in France, whence most of them come ; and, as I have said, I think it would be an advantage if we could make a differentiation between films of an educational character and those which are made simply for the purposes of amusement. In the capital cities of the various States, there are now a number of highly trained m.en doing this kind of work remarkably well, such as Mr. West, and others, who reproduce in the evening the scenes of the day on the football ground or the race-course. Colonel Foxton. - No foreign competition would interfere with that kind of work. 11065 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I do not say . that it would, but I think the Treasurer might so frame his proposal .as to make the exposed films free while subjecting the sensitized films to a duty. 11065 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I have listened to the remarks of honorable members, who seem to have an intimate knowledge of the subject ; "and it seems to me that if I were to propose to agree with the Senate's request in paragraph a as to exposed films, I should meet the suggestion which has been made. I ask leave to withdraw the motion. Motion and modification, by leave, withdrawn. 11065 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I move - That the requested amendment be made, but that the words " and exposed " be not included. As I 'understand, it is desired that sensitized films shall be free, while exposed films shall be dutiable. 11065 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - That would shut out the educational pictures. 11065 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - It would be better to accept the entire suggestion of the Senate. 11065 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - That is what. I proposed ; but now I understand that honorable members desire sensitized films to be free, and exposed films made dutiable. 11065 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Honorable members do not wish that, but they urge that, at least, exposed films ought to be free. Colonel Foxton. - So as to admit films that cannot be made here. 11065 L0K Laanecoorie 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - - I think that the Treasurer, by this proposal, is making a worse error than if he accepted the whole suggestion of the Senate. My object is to protect those who, like the Kodak Company, are not making films here now, but who are erecting buildings and installing plant for the purpose of making them, if protection! be afforded. We do not desire, however, to have a duty on exposed films which .can be obtained only from other- parts of the world. I quite see the difficulty of making a differentiation between educational films and films for mere amusement, and, under the circumstances, I think it would be advisable to adopt the request of the Senate in itSentirety. 11065 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - As a layman, I find myself fh a considerable difficulty in view of the conflicting advice tendered by honorable members. 11065 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - Both sides are agreed' on this point. 11065 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - But another honorable member has written a letter stating: that he desires exposed films made dutiable, and sensitized films made free. Colonel Foxton. - Does the honorable member give any reason ? 11066 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - How can the exposed films come into competition with the local films ? 11066 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I do not profess to be an expert, and I am only trying to meet the wishes of the Committee. As there seems to be some difference of opinion, I think I had better revert to my original proposal to adopt the request of the Senate. I ask leave to withdraw the motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the requested amendment be made. Requested amendment made. Item 342. Talking Machines, Graphophones Gramaphones, Phonographs (commercial or business), including all accessories, ad val. (General Tariff), 35 per cent. ; and on and after 7th December, 1907, free ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent. ; and on and after 7th December, 1907 free. Request. - Insert the words " except Horns " after the word " accessories." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made. 11066 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I do not know what reason there is for excepting horns. 11066 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Because they are made to a, considerable extent in Australia. 11066 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Only some of them ; many horns are made in one piece without seams, and these, I do not think, are produced in Australia. Then, a difficulty arises from the fact that, when machines are purchased abroad, or imported, they are bought with the horns attached ; and I understand that it is the intention to make the machines free. How will it be possible to separate the horn from the rest of the machine? This is a distinction not worth making, seeing that only comparatively few horns are made here. 11066 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The officers and experts of the Department advise us that horns are made here in considerable* numbers. 11066 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I am very doubtful about that, because nearly all the machines come in equipped with horns; and it would not pay, with some sorts, to make the latter here, owing to the necessity there is for elaborate and costly machinery. 11066 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The horn is part of the instrument. 11066 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - But when a person purchases a machine in England, France, or America he purchases a horn with it. 11066 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Not always. 11066 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I should say that a horn is purchased with a machine in nine cases out of ten. 11066 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Not so often, I think, because many people desire a horn different from those ordinarily given with the machine. 11066 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The great majority of the machines are bought with the horns attached. At any rate, this request, if agreed to, will, without much benefit to any one, create a difficulty to purchasers and Customs officials alike. 11066 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - The information, supplied to me with reference to these goods is that it is known that one importer of gramaphones has placed a contract locally for the supply of 1,800 horns per annum. It is further known that the output of local makers amounts to thousands of horns per annum. I have just received further information that one local contractor has entered into a contract for the supply of 4,000 per annum. Three local manufacturers make horns up to 5 feet in length. So that it is evident that a great number are made in this country. It is for that reason, doubtless, that the Senate has requested that the goods be made dutiable. 11066 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr WYNNE .- I am aware that one manufacturer in Melbourne alone has made between 5,000 and 6,000 of these horns already. There are twelve or fourteen factories in Sydney making horns for gramaphones. As so many of our people are employed in the industry, it would be a great mistake not to agree to the duty. I have received a letter from an importer, who gave an order to a local firm for 1,800 horns, and who says that owing to the duty being knocked off and the goods being allowed to come in free, imported horns have flooded the market, with the result that the local manufacturer had been unable to carry out his contract. I think it would be a great mistake not to agree' to the request. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. And on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 344. Spectacles and Spectacle Frames (not being gold), and glasses for spectacles, ad val. (General Tariff), 10 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. Requests. - Leave put the words " and glasses for spectacles," and insert in lieu thereof the words "and spectacle glasses and lenses in a finished state." Make the item free. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to- That the requested amendment leaving out the words " and glasses for spectacles," and inserting in lieu thereof the words " and spectacle glasses and lenses in a finished state," be made. Requested amendment as to alteration of wording made. . Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment making the item free be not made. 11067 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY . - I cannot understand why the Treasurer is opposing this request, which is in the interest of an Australian industry. Lenses in the rough are not made in England, but come from abroad. 11067 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - About one-seventh of the imports come from Great Britain. 11067 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The proposal of the Senate is practically that the makers of finished lenses in Australia shall be able to make them on equal terms with the makers of lenses in Great Britain. If we give this preference to the people of Great Britain,' the raw material of lenses can be imported to Great Britain from abroad, made into the finished state, and shipped to Australia to compete with the Australian maker in his own limited market. In the interests of the Australian industry alone we should accept the Senate's request. In the absence of any information from the Minister we should not do this injury to an Australian industry. I have received a letter from friends in Sydney,' in which they strongly urge that the proposed preference should be given. They say that the best glasses come from England, arid that consequently a general reduction in the duty might be to the detriment of those using spectacles and other glasses in Australia. I do not know whether that is so. Indeed, I fear not. If the ' Minister is acting upon, such a supposition, let him tell the Committee so. The Senate has made this request in order to protect an Australian industry in the first place, and, secondly, in order that the users of spectacles in Australia. - those afflicted with short or bad sight - shall be subjected to as little additional burden as this Parliament can impose upon them. Question - That the requested amendment making item 344 (Spectacles) free, be not made - put. The Committee divided. 25 26 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Requested amendment made. 11067 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - I wish to ask whether the Treasurer is going to take any notice of these repeated defeats? Item 347. Slipper Forms and Royal Cord in the piece ; Prunella ; Lasting ; and Stuff for Boots, Shoes, and Slippers, ad val. (General Tariff), 10 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 5 per cent. Requests. - Insert the word " and " before the word "Lasting." Leave out the words "and" Stuff." Make the item free. Requested amendments as to the wording not made, but the word " felt " inserted before the word "Stuff," and the words " under Departmental by-laws " inserted after the word " Slippers." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment making the item free be not made. 11068 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr WYNNE .- This item covers the raw material of the slipper maker, which is not made, and, I am told, cannot be made, in the Commonwealth. 11068 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - What is the duty on slippers? 11068 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr WYNNE - Twenty-five or 30 per cent., but that will be of no advantage to the manufacturer if a big duty is put on his raw material. I see no necessity for imposing a 10 per cent, duty in this case. 11068 L17 Dalley FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS .- An industry that clamours for and obtains 30 per cent, protection ought to be the last to ask for free-trade in regard to its raw material, which is the manufactured article of some other trade. Surely Australians do not admit that they cannot produce some of these articles. I shall vote for a duty of 10 per cent., because the least that the fortunate clamourers for a 30 per cent, duty on boots, &c, can do is to grant a protection of 10 per cent, to smaller manufacturers in other walks of life. 11068 KYJ Bendigo 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK .- The free-trade section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 10 per cent. The protectionist section recommended 5 per cent., so that I shall feel bound to vote for the Government proposition and against these articles being free. Many of those included in this item are finished articles, such as slipper forms. 11068 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Slipper forms should not be included with stuff for slippers. 11068 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Slipper forms have undergone a certain amount of preparation. Lasting is also a kind- of finished article. In any event duties of 10 and 5 per cent, are quite justifiable. 11068 F4P East Sydney 0 0 REID, George Mr REID .- As I propose to vote with the Minister on this solitary occasion, I feel I owe it to the country to make some explanation. I think that the position taken up by the honorable gentleman in this case is a perfectly fair one. Only a low duty is proposed, and we should treat the people interested in this item in the same way as we have treated others. 11068 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Wynne - It is a revenue duty. 11068 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - That is so, and a 30 per cent, duty was imposed to give protection to the finished article. We are, in this case, looking after the interests of the revenue. I think that, for once, the Minister is right, and I have to congratulate him on the fact. 11068 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- I agree that the free-traders in the Committee are looking after the revenue in supporting duties of 10 and 5 per cent, on this item. I congratulate the Treasurer on having relaxed his protectionist principles so far as to be prepared to vote with free-traders on this occasion. One always experiences a certain amount of gratification upon securing recruits for his side, from whatever quarter they are obtained, and, for my part, I warmly welcome the Treasurer into the free-trade fold. Question - That the requested amendment, making item 347 (Slipper Forms, &c.) free, be not made - put. The Committee divided. 21 28 Majority ... ... 7 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Requested amendment made. Item 348. Boots, Rubber, viz. : - Gum and Wading Boots, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free. Request. - Make the item free. 11068 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - In view of the result of the last division, I feel that it would scarcely be right for me, in dealing with an item which must be dealt with on the same principle as the last, to again call for a division, when to do so would be to permit the leader of the Opposition to again vote with the Government, and insure the rejection of the motion. I therefore move - That the requested amendment be made. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. Item 350. Rubber Manufactures, n.e.i., and Articles, n.e.i., in which Rubber forms a part; including Bandages, Elastic Stockings, Leggings, Knee Caps, Thighpieces, and Wristlets; Hat-makers' Press Bags and Rings; Gas Bags; Soles, Pads, and Heels; Cash Mats; Rubbered Tyre Fabric ; Tyre Rubber ; Tyres, not accompanying Cycles or Vehicles; Tubes, valved or unvalved ; Rubber Stoppers or Corks, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent. Request. - Leave out the words " , not accompanying Cycles or Vehicles." 11069 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - It was originally proposed to allow the tyres of vehicles to come in as part of the vehicles at the same rate of duty as that fixed on the vehicles. However, when later on motor chassis were made dutiable at 5 per cent, and free, provision was made in item 381, paragraph j, to permit tyres to come in under the same conditions. That is why this request is made. I move - That the requested amendment be made. 11069 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Does the requested amendment mean that a duty should be paid on the tyres in addition to the duty imposed on the complete vehicle? 11069 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No. . Motion agreed to. Requested amendment made. And on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 353..... Leather, viz. : - Kid and Patent and Enamelled Leather, ad val. 20 per cent. Request. - Make the duty per square foot, 2d. Sir WILLIAM LYNE (Hume- Treasurer) Tv33]- - This is- an item about which I have considerable doubts. I think that I included this request as amongst those which I proposed to accept. It has since been represented to me very strongly that it would be scarcely advisable to make the requested amendment, and that it would be better to leave the item dutiable at 20 per cent, under the general Tariff as it left this Committee. I am not an expert in the matter, but I understand that the proposed duty of 2d. per square foot would not effect what those who advocate it desire. 11069 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - What is the difference between the two rates? 11069 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The Committee, when previously considering the item, decided to impose a duty of 20 per cent. The duty proposed by the Senate varies from about 12^ ,per cent, on the higher grade goods to 30 per cent, on the lower grade. 11069 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - That imposes the higher duty on the lower grade article. That can scarcely be right. 11069 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr Salmon - The ad valorem duty would be the better duty to adopt. 11069 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Unless some good reason be given later on why I should change my present opinion, I think it would be better to adhere to our original proposal, and I therefore move - That the requested amendment be not made. 11069 JYR Fawkner 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr FAIRBAIRN .- I agree with the Treasurer that the question raised by the Senate's request is a somewhat difficult one to decide. It should be remembered that the item covers a raw material required by bootmakers. The question is whether we should admit high-class kid worn by the people of the upper classes at a lower rate of duty .than inferior kid. There is a conflict of opinion. 11069 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I am well aware of that. 11069 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr FAIRBAIRN - My suggestion is that we should make the item read " 2d. per square foot, or ad valorem 2o-per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty." That ought to protect both the Sydney and the Melbourne manufacturers. The subject is one upon which we should certainly hear the honorable member for Batman. 11069 F4R South Sydney 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON . - Glace kid is now being made in Australia, and in my electorate an article is being produced whose quality is such that experts have been unable to distinguish it from imported kid. The boot manufacturers and tanners of New South Wales are agreed that a duty of 20 per cent, is a reasonable compromise, the former recognising that the tanners must receive protection. If a rate of 2d. per square foot were agreed to, it would be equivalent to a duty of i2i per cent, ad valorem on the best leather, and would come to as much as 33^ per cent, ad valorem on inferior leather, which is sometimes sold for as little as 6d. per square foot. 11069 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - It is down to Sd. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - That makes the ad valorem rate still higher. The disparity in duty would be so great that it would be a mistake to make the amendment suggested by the Senate. 11070 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR . - A deputation representing all the tanners in Australia waited on the Minister in regard to the duties on leather and boots and shoes. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - Only Melbourne men were represented on that deputation. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The tanner who has, I believe, the largest business in the electorate of the honorable member, was present, and spoke at the deputation. He has been referred to as the largest manufacturer of glace kid in Australia, but I doubt that he is. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - He certainly produces the best glace kid. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - No; others produce a much better article. I understand that the deputation agreed that it would be a fair compromise between the tanners and the boot manufacturers to fix the duty at 2d. per square foot. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - That was agreed to only by the Melbourne men. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Representatives from New South Wales and South Australia were present. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I this afternoon presented a petition from the boot manufacturers of New South Wales, praying the House not to make the amendment requested by the Senate. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - That petition was taken round Sydney last week by an importer. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I do not believe it. It was sent to me by one of the biggest boot manufacturers in Sydney. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Many of the Sydney boot manufacturers refused to sign it. Mr. Whvbrow, one of the largest, did not sign it. 11070 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - He is a Melbourne manufacturer. 11070 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - He has also one of the largest businesses in New South Wales. T admit that there is a difference of opinion, and the Committee seems determined to reject the proposal for the imposition of a dutv of 2d. per square foot ; but I shall vote for the request, as it was agreed to as a compromise between' the boot manufacturers and the tanners. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. And on and after 7th December, 1907 - Item 353..... Leather, viz. : - Calf, n.e.i., White Sheep, and White Lamb, ad val. 15 per cent. Request. - Make the duty 20 per cent. 11070 K4I Bourke PROT Honorary Minister 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK . - I understand that the Senate's request does not quite convey the wishes of that body. The members of the Senate desired to make white sheep and white lamb leather dutiable at 20 per cent.,' and calf leather n.e.i. dutiable at 15 per cent. The Government wish to give effect to that proposal, and I therefore move - That the requested amendment be not made ; but that the paragraph be altered to read - Leather, viz. : - Calf, n.e.i., ad val. 15 per cent. White sheep and white lamb, ad val. 15 per cent.; and on and after 13th May, 1908, 20 per cent. 11070 L1D Robertson 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS . - The Minister has given 'no reason why white sheep and white lamb leather should bear a duty of 20 per cent. There is no difficulty in making such leather. It is made here in very large quantities. 11070 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - That is the reason for imposing a duty. 11070 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - Very little labour is attached to the manufacture of white leather. It is merely a question of passing the skins through a solution of sulphuric acid and salt and rubbing a little oil upon them. The imported white leather is of excellent quality, and sets a standard to local manufacturers. If the duty were taken off, it would do a lot of good to the trade ; a much better article would be produced locally because a high standard would have to be maintained. If, however, we levy a duty of 15 or 20" per cent., the tendency will be to stop the importation of white leather, and the trade must use whatever is locally produced. It will encourage that slovenliness which has prevailed in the -past. Certainly it is not necessary for the maintenance of the industry. I should like to hear what the Minister has to say in favour , of imposing a duty of 20 per cent, on this article, which is used more largely by the masses than by the upper classes. It is the cheapest and most inferior kind of leather. 11070 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The honorable member knows the reason for imposing the duty. He told us that the leather was made here in large quantities. We want to protect the local manufacturers. After all, it is a small matter. 11071 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I think that the Treasurer should address at least a few words to the Committee on this question. He is seeking to impose a duty of 20 per cent, on the manufacture of an article which is very easily and inexpensively produced. But he has given no reason why it should be levied. Evidently honorable members are satisfied, but I, as a member of the Committee, should like to know why I am asked to vote for a duty of 20 per cent. 11071 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - To help a very good industry. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made, but modification made. Requested amendment in item 355 (Crust or rough tanned goatskins, &c.) - made. Item 356. Paper, viz. : - And on and after 9th December, 1907 - Manufactures of, framed (including the weight of the frame), or unframed, having advertisements thereon, including Price Lists n.e.i., Trade Catalogues n.e.i., Show Cards n.e.i., and all Printed or Lithographed Matter, Pictures n.e.i., and Posters of all kinds, used or intended to be used for advertising purposes ; also all Printed Bags and Cartons; Calendars and Almanacs n.e.i., per lb., 6d. Request.- After " Printed" insert " Photographed"; make the duty per lb., 6d., or ad val. 35 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to - That the requested amendment as regards alteration of wording be made. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment as regards alteration of duty be made. 11071 F4P East Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 REID, George Mr REID .- This is a monstrous proposal. Surely protection can be carried out in a straightforward way by imposing duties which are considered adequate for the purpose. 11071 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The Senate carried this request by seventeen votes to nine. 11071 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - I do not feel overwhelmed by the statement of that fact. 11071 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It shows the strong feeling there. 11071 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - I think that the nine senators have more sense than the seventeen, if I am bound to express an opinion on the subject. Surely it is beneath the national protectionist policy of Australia to put a tax of 6d. per lb. on price lists and trade catalogues ! What an extraordinary way that is of trying to carry out a national policy - to prevent useful information from coming into the country ! 11071 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - That has already been agreed to. 11071 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - I am very sorry that - having an opportunity of doing . so - I have to disagree with it. The seventeen senators were so anxious to " go one better ' ' that they have requested a duty of 6d. per lb., or 35 per cent, ad valorem. That, in my opinion, is going too far. I do not suppose that we can do anything more than object to the requested amendment. I do not know which is the cheaper rate, but it seems to be a monstrous thing to put a duty of 6d. per lb. on these articles. 11071 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - Surely a duty of 6d.per lb. is quite sufficient protection to give in respect of these articles ! Such advertisements, when contained in a magazine, are dealt with in paragraph d of this item 356, but, of course, it would be out of order to allude to that item now. I do not know the effect of the alteration requested by the Senate in paragraph a of the item, but surely the Minister can decline their request for a duty of 35 per cent. I think that it applies to only the higher class of advertisements, and will increase the cost of themyery much. Great care has been taken in other items to insure that all legitimate printing shall be done here and therefore there is no necessity to put on this percentage in addition to, or in conjunction with, a duty of 6d. per lb. on price lists and trade catalogues. There are certain things which, owing to their very nature, must be imported. A duty of 6d. per lb. ought to be enough to prevent the importation of anything which can be printed locally. I cannot vote for a duty of 35 per cent, in addition to the duty of 6d. per lb. 11071 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - It is not in addition, but an alternative. 11071 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - It is an alternative, but it is an addition in this sense : that two duties are proposed, namely, 6d. per lb., or 35per cent, ad valorem if the latter will yield a larger return. That is, I think, going too far. and therefore I shall vote against the motion. 11071 KYJ Bendigo 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK .- I think that in making this request, the Senate was guided by the knowledge that there is a very great distinction between the values of a number of the articles included in this paragraph. Some of them are very cheap, in fact, as cheap as dirt, whilst others are of the most valuable character. Some of the advertisements are framed, and some are unframed. A duty of 6d. per lb. will, it is believed, operate unequally on the rubbish as compared with the highly valuable articles, and the materials included in the paragraph. The A section of the Tariff Commission recommended a' differentiation based upon the consideration as to whether the advertisements were framed or unframed. We suggested a duty of 25 per cent, on the former and a duty of 6d. per lb. on the latter. I think that a duty of 35 per cent, is excessive. I shall be prepared to support an alternative duty of 25 per cent. That would, I consider, operate with greater equality than would an all-round duty of 6d. per lb. It is most unfair that the cheap stuff should bear the same rate of duty as the highly-finished and very valuable articles included in the paragraph. I shall vote against the proposal to fix the duty at 35 per cent., but I would suggest that, as a modification, a duty of 25 per cent., as recommended by the A section of the Tariff Commission, might be accepted. 11072 K5J Batman 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON . - I hope that the Government will stick to their proposal, because a duty of 35. per cent, means effective protection. 11072 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Make it 50 per cent. ! 11072 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - Yes, I would, because some of the printing for New South Wales is carried out in Japan. 11072 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Where is the proof of that? 11072 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - -In another place, Senator Vardon exhibited catalogues and bills which had ' been imported from Japan, where the wages of a journeyman printer average 8s. or 9s. per week. We are told now that a duty of 25 per cent: will be sufficient. 11072 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - In the case of these bills, what percentage would a duty of 6d. per lb. represent? 11072 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - The honorable member knows that a duty of 6d. per lb. would not stop the importation of the rubbish which is coming in. It will not enable Australian labour at £3 per week to compete with Japanese labour at 8s. or 9s. a week. We should see that importation of such articles is prohibited. They are brought from a country where ships are loaded by women with children strapped to their backs, ls that what honorable members want to see introduced here? That is the sort of competition we -have to contend with. 11072 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is that what protection does there? 11072 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - A duty of 25 per cent, is not sufficient protection. In Australia we have plenty of printers to do all the printing work which is required to be done. Will honorable members on the other side assert that we cannot do our own printing, or that the catalogues which are distributed by various firms cannot be printed here? We find that honorable- gentlemen who were prepared to vote protection are now prepared to vote free-trade. 11072 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Is a duty of 6d. per lb. free-trade? 11072 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - As regards this item, it is practically free-trade. It is hardly any protection. I ask honorable members who belong to the new Constitutional Party and believe in effective protection to vote for a duty of 35 per cent., as recommended by the Government. 11072 K7U Corio 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH .- I think that it was an oversight not to insert the words " or the value " after the words "the weight" in the phrase "including the weight of the frame." I wonder how the honorable member for Bendigo can think that a duty of 35 per cent, .is excessive, when he knows the quantity of printed matter which is constantly imported from Germany. At the bottom of the majority of lithographed advertisements he will find some such words as " Made in Bavaria." It seems to me that it is not a right state of things that printing for Australia should be done in Germany. 11072 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr Mcdougall - Some Victorian postcards are printed in Germany. 11072 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - That is so. Coloured supplements published by newspapers are often printed in Germany. The Australasian, for instance, has published a coloured supplement printed in Bavaria. Such printed matter ought to be taxed. It is unreasonable that advertisements in the English language intended for use in this country should be printed in foreign lands. 11072 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - The honorable member need not be afraid so far as newspaper imports are concerned. The Minister will deem them to be what they are not. 11072 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - To use a well-known phrase, the honorable member seems to have a "bee in his bonnet" in regard to certain imported paper used by the Sydney Bulletin. It is unfortunate that he cannot accept the replies by the Minister of Trade and Customs to his questions on the subject. Advertisements are printed in foreign countries for use in Australia because the wages of printers in those countries are less than they are here. 11073 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Notwithstanding their highly protective duties? 11073 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - In the absence of a protective policy, the wages in those countries would be much less. A lot of work is done abroad on the score of cheapness, and I think it only reasonable that those who pay high wages should be protected. 11073 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Would the honorable member make this item free so far as imports from the United States are concerned ? 11073 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - I should be prepared to agree to a very strong reciprocal Tariff with the United States of America, and I would make these duties so high that, whilst we entered into reciprocal Tariff agreements with countries where fair wages conditions prevailed, our own workmen would still be adequately protected. Honorable members who are not in favour of effective duties are placing obstacles in the way of reciprocal agreements with other countries. I hope that the honorable member for Bendigo will see his way even now to agree to this request. 11073 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - It is all very well to seek to prevent the importation of printed matter from Japan, but the honorable member unfortunately would adopt a rule of thumb way of effecting that object. It is proposed to keep out printing from all countries, whether high wages or low wages prevail in them. 11073 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It is always a good thing to have something to give away. 11073 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then the honorable member should propose that the duty be increased to 250 per cent. It is an anomaly to tax importations twice. Large firms having agencies in Australia 11073 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Indent agencies, with a room and a man. 11073 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am speaking of agencies such as those established here by chocolate manufacturers and others whose works are abroad, and who employ large staffs in Australia. Confectionery is taxed to the extent of 3d. and 2½d. per lb., and now it is proposed that labels and advertising matter used in connexion with it shall be taxed to the extent of 50 per cent. These duties in many cases will be equal to 50 per cent., and, superimposed on those on manufactures in connexion with which the printed matter is used, they savour of protection run mad. When we raise these objections, we are told that some business men in Australia have their printing done in Japan - that at some time or other during his long business career Anthony Hordern made an importation of printed matter from that country. I do not hesitate to say that he was wrong in doing so, but are we going on the strength of a case like that to penalize the people of all countries where the workers are not sweated? If the honorable member for Corio is satisfied with the logic of his statement, he must be prepared to allow printed matter to come in free from countries where the labour conditions are satisfactory. It is absurd that we should superimpose these duties on others upon imports in connexion with which this printed matter is used. 11073 L0K Laanecoorie 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON .- I think that the Senate's proposal is very reasonable. It goes without saying that under an item covering a wide range of qualities there should be some difference between the duties imposed on high and low-grade manufactures. 11073 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Quite so, and honorable members of the Opposition argued the other way when the request in respect of leather was under consideration. 11073 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - Exactly. Honorable members must agree that lithographic printing covers a wide range of qualities. 11073 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - As in the case of leather. Modify the request by proposing a duty of 20 per cent., and we will agree to it. 11073 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I hope that the Government will not accept such a proposition, and I am sure that some honorable members of the Opposition would not. 11073 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then there is no analogy between this request and that relating to the duties on leather. 11073 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - The fact that the printed matter covered by this item, in some cases, is of very high value, would make it unreasonable to impose an all-round duty of 6d. per lb. I think we are all agreed that we should have an alternative ad valorem duty. 11073 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - We are not. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I am astonished that any honorable member should urge that on imported material of low quality the same duty should be imposed as is levied on that of very high quality. 11074 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Under this proposal a duty of 6d. per lb. will have to be paid on printed matter of the poorest quality. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I hope so. I think we are agreed that there should be an alternative ad valorem duty. 11074 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - No. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - Do I understand that honorable members of the Opposition wish to disagree with the request that an ad valorem, as well as a fixed, duty should be imposed? 11074 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Yes. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I am sorry to hear that. On some of the higher-priced lines the duty collected will . be as much as 2S. 6d. per lb., and I think that they should be so taxed. A great deal has been said in regard to cheap printing obtained from Japan, and I propose to read the evidence of an Australian master printer who visited that country. He states that when in Yokohama he inspected a Japanese printery, managed by a cute American, and found that it was turning out lithographic work in a style which would not be discreditable to any Australian printing office. He states that in the matter of value it would compete with anything turned out by an Australian printer. 11074 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - And those works were managed by a cute Yankee - a good protectionist, who left his country to find cheap labour. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I am glad to say that he could not find it in his own country. The Australian master printer to whom I have referred states that he discovered that wages paid in the trade in Yokohama were about one-sixth of those received by men doing similar work in Melbourne or Sydney. He gives specific instances in which men were paid 9s. per week. Surely we do not desire to expose our own workers to such competition? 11074 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - But higher wages are paid in other countries for a lot of this work. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I have given the evidence of a master printer who visited printing works in Japan, and who testifies that the work is well done. That is not surprising, since it is well known that the Japanese are the most expert copyists in the world. In respect of wages alone, we should have to impose a duty of something like 600 per cent, in order to make good the difference between those paid in Japan and Australia. We are asked to agree to a duty of 35 per cent., and I am sorry that the honorable member for Bendigo should have committed himself to a much lower impost. 11074 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - He stands by the duty which he recommended as Chairman of the Tariff Commission. 11074 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Mr SALMON - I do not know whether some of the evidence now available was given before the Commission, but in the light of specific information in respect to this important matter, I think that he may perhaps consider that a duty of 35 per cent, is bv no means too high. 11074 L1D Robertson 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS . - I am rather surprised that the honorable member for Laanecoorie, who, outside the House, is very _ reasonable, should be prepared to support this request. If some honorable members had their- way the policy of protection would be carried to the point of prohibition. 11074 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member for" Laanecoorie has said that a 600 per cent, duty ought to be imposed. 11074 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - The honorable member for Batman has also urged the imposition of high duties to keep out matter printed abroad. I can quite understand protectionists arguing in that way, seeing that they are willing to grant manufacturers the benefit of duties of 100 per cent. - as they did the manufacturers of furniture. This Committee has extended an inordinate measure of protection to all classes of manufacturers. SirWilliam Lyne. - The duties imposed can scarcely be called protection vet. 11074 L1D FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - The Treasurer desires to impose prohibitive duties. I maintain that it would be a good thing for the public if we could make commodities cheaper than they are. In respect of many articles, our manufacturers already enjoy effective protection by reason of the oversea freight charges. 11074 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Why " stone-wall " the Tariff? 11074 L1D 0 0 WILLIS, Henry Mr HENRY WILLIS - I wish to say a word 6tr two because I was rather surprised to find the right honorable member for Swan anxious to support a 15 per cent, duty upon a certain article when he might have secured its admission free. I really do not know whether he is a protectionist of a free-trader. But this circumstance serves only to evidence the state of demoralization which the Committee has reached. 11075 KUF Darling 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE .- In spite of the attempt of the honorable member for Parramatta to discount the importance of the "printed in Japan" idea, I maintain that there is a good deal of truth in the assertion which has been made. When I examined the Christmas calendar issued by Mr. Hordern - which was printed in Japan - I did not fail to observe that it contained no imprint. That fact in itself is very significant. The calendar in question is a very fine production. It reproduces the Australian waratah and other native flowers, and altogether it is a work which reflects credit upon the printing establishment responsible for it. I have been informed that the contract for die production of this calendar was obtained for a clever American, who let the work out in Japan, where it could be done cheaply. If my information is correct, it evidences a new development of considerable interest to us, because, when the contract was let, it was doubtless assumed that the successful tenderer would have the work done in America, which is recognised as a high wage country, This is a case in which I shall vote for the imposition of a higher duty. I do not think that it matters what rate we impose on this item. The artistic work to which I have alluded can be successfully undertaken in Australia, and there is very widespread competition for it. 11075 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - It can be undertaken in every city in the Commonwealth. 11075 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - Consequently there is no reason to apprehend that the effect of levying a high duty will be to enhance the prices. Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.4.5 p.m. 11075 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I hope the Committee will not agree to strike out the duty of 35 per cent. In many cases there is a vast difference between a fixed duty of 6d. and an elastic ad valorem duty. As honorable members know, a fixed duty of 6d. may bear very heavily on one class of goods and very lightly on another. The suggested amendment was supported by the Government in the Senate, and was agreed to by seventeen votes to nine, showing clearly that the Senate felt very strongly on the point. I do not attach much importance to a vote of the kind, but when we find such a large majority, I think it is as well to agree to the request. 11075 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- I trust that the requested amendment will be made. All these advertisements must be to advertise goods sold in Australia, and, in this connexion, the argument used so frequently by honorable members opposite as to the " poor farmer " or the " poor miner " cannot apply. I am not sure whether decorative tin plates come under this item, but, in any case, I think they should. If Australian manufacturers send Home for show cards and any sort of advertising matter, or for decorated tins in which to place their Australian goods, they ought to pay duty, because, in some of these lines, it would pay the foreign manufacturers to keep their machinery going at a loss, in order to supply us at a cheap rate. I feel confident that honorable members opposite cannot " put up a fight " on this item as they have on others, because no other industry can possibly be penalized if this requested amendment be made. Question - That the requested amendment, making the duty on item . 356, paragraph a (Manufactures of Paper, &c), 6d. per lb. or ad val. 35 per cent. be made - put. The Committee divided. 25 19 Majority ... ... 6 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Requested amendment made. Requested amendment in item 356, paragraph b (Catalogues, Price Lists, &c), made. Item 356. Paper, viz. : - Australian Directories, Guides, and Time Tables, per lb. (General Tariff), 6d. ; (United Kingdom), 6d. ; and on and after 10th December, 1907, 4d. Request. - Make the duty (United Kingdom), 6d. Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made. 11076 JSM Calare ALP 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr THOMAS BROWN . - Originally this Committee decided to reduce the Tariff from 6d. to 4d., and now the Senate desires that the duty shall be restored to 6& There were some very good arguments brought forward to show that the duty should be reduced, and I hope that we shall stand by our original decision. 11076 F4P East Sydney 0 0 REID, George Mr REID .- Of course, I cannot verify statements which have been made in regard to this matter, but I suppose that every honorable member has received a circular from the proprietors of the chief directories published in Australia. 11076 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - What is the date of the circular to which the right honorable member refers? 11076 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - The 10th September, 1907 ; but I have received a letter from the manager of the same concern, dated 6th May - only a few days ago. It does seem to me to be an extraordinary thing, but it is stated here definitely that these directories have to be published very rapidly, and that the proprietors have tried over and over again to get tenders for the work to be done in Australia, without success. 11076 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - The master printers deny that. 11076 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - Do they? 11076 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - I put a question to the Minister of Trade and Customs during the previous debate, and he said that he had inquired into statements to a similar effect, and found that they were incorrect, and that Australian printers were prepared to undertake the work. 11076 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - I think it is rather a strange thing that these statements should be made so confidently. It is stated in this circular, amongst other things, that they did manage to have the New South Wales work done in New South Wales, but at the end of the contract the printers declined to renew at any price, and the firm had again to transfer the work outside the Commonwealth. At any rate, 4d. per lb. is a very fair duty. I want to point out, however, that the duty of 4d. was agreed to in this Chamber after some debate, and the duty of 6d. was only carried in the Senate by the votes of two Ministers. That is what I am told. 11076 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No; it was carried by sixteen to twelve. 11076 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - If the two Ministers had gone over to the other side there would have been a tie, and the duty would have remained at 4d. ; so that my statement is substantially correct. It is rather hard that the Government should agree to a rate of duty in this Chamber, and that two members of the same- Ministry should vote the other way to upset the arrangement in the Senate. Ministers may very well say, when the Senate carries a certain duty against them, that they cannot help it. But if an arrangement, made by Ministers in this Chamber is upset by the votes of Ministers in the other branch of the Legislature, it is rather hard. The proprietors of these directories employ a very large' amount of labour. Of course, I cannot vouch for the statement, but they say that they spend £10,000 a year in Australia upon their work. 11076 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - They will spend more when they get all their work done in Australia. 11076 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - It is an Australian industry. There is no doubt about that. I am not objecting to its being handicapped, so far as that is done in accordance with the . protectionist policy, but even under that policy some regard might be had to an Australian industry which does employ labour. Is not a duty of 4d. per lb. enough? Surely anything that the Treasurer will accept as a compromise ought to be considered enough. 11077 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The Opposition have not always followed out the principle of adhering to compromises. 11077 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr REID - That only shows the evil of a bad example. We are only human, and when Ministers err we also may occasionally err by deserting the straight path. But. in this instance the compromise is a fair one. I am not going to prolong the debate, but I think that these people, taking their own statements, have claims which ought to be considered. 11077 F4R South Sydney 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON .- I am sure that difficulties in regard to the printing in Australia of Wise's directories do not arise to anything like the extent that has been alleged. There is no difficulty, from a printer's stand-point, in producing those directories here, any more than' there is- in producing the directories issued by John Sands, and Company in Sydney, and Sands and McDougall in Melbourne. I think that ' Sands and McDougall's Directory is published in as short a time as are Wise's directories. 11077 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr THOMSON - But Sands and McDougall's and John Sands are also big printing firms, and produce their own directories. 11077 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - There are other large printing firms in Sydney and "Melbourne, which are quite capable of producing these volumes. The fact of the matter is that in the past the proprietors of Wise's directories have 'found- it profitable to have their work done in the Old Country, where compositors wages are as low as 28s. or 30s. per week, and proportionate amounts are paid for machining work. Under the free-trade regime it paid these people to have their printing done abroad, by means of which they made a considerable saving on their typographical and other work in connexion with the production of their volumes. In this country the wages of compositors run from 52s. to 60s. per week. 11077 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Directories were free under the old Tariff. 11077 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - That is the reason why Wise's people preferred to import the printed volumes. I am satisfied that within the time that it takes to send the copy from Australia to England and to bring the books back from England to Australia, the volumes could be printed and bound in Australia. At least three months must be consumed in the two voyages, and within that time I am certain that any ' of the large printing establishments in Australia could produce the volumes. 11077 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - Does not the honorable member think that a duty of 4d. per lb would be sufficient? 11077 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr WATSON - I have not made a. calculation as to what that duty would amount to per volume j but the statement that these directories cannot be printed in Australia is, to the best of my belief, .without foundation. 11077 KYD Grey 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON .- When, this subject was before the Committee on the last occasion, the Treasurer agreed to accept a duty of 4d. per lb. by way of compromise. It is idle to compare the work contained in one of Sands and McDougall's directories with the work contained in one of Wise's directories, inasmuch as the number of names in the latter volumes is far greater. In one of Sands and McDougall's directories there are 36,000 names, whereas in one of Wise's directories, which can be compared with Sands and McDougall's, there are 116,000 names. Take a few towns. Wise's Directory of Bendigo contains 6,500 names, whereas Sands and McDougall's contains 1,500. In the case of Geelong, Wise's Directory contains 5,750 names, as against 800 names- in Sands and McDougall's. A similar comparison might be made with regard to other towns. 11077 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - It is all a question of cost. 11077 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The firm in question spends more in wages in Australia than Sands and McDougall do. 11077 F4R 0 0 WATSON, John Christian Mr Watson - I do not think so. 11077 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I am assured that Wise's have tried to get their printing done in Australia, and have failed. It is not so much a question of the printing as of the' time within which the work is done. They had one of their directories printed once in New South Wales, and the firm of printers with which they contracted refused to renew the contract. The duty of 4d. per lb. on this printed matter is a. very substantial one. When the Tariff was last before us the Treasurer voluntarily agreed to the duty of 4d. I think that the Government ought to be satisfied with that. 11077 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON .- If any honorable member will take the trouble to look at one of these volumes, he will be able to form an opinion as to the weight of it. The directory which I hold in my hand weighs about 8 lbs., or a little over, and the duty' of 6d. would amount to about 4s. per volume. I am referring to the directory for New South' Wales. 11078 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - That is the largest State. 11078 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - The honorable member will forgive New South Wales for that, I hope ! 11078 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON - The people of New South Wales will have to pay that extra price for their copies of these directories. Every person who is compelled to buy one of these volumes will be mulcted in a penalty of at least 4s. Surely that is an outrageous impost. A duty of 4d. per lb. will make the price. 2s. 8d. higher. That ought to be sufficient. If it is not sufficient protection for the local printers, I should like to know how much they would like. As the duty of 4d. was agreed to by the Treasurer on the last occasion, some substantial and weighty reason ought to be given for the reversal of our decision. I submit that no reasons have been given for an increase of the duty. 11078 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- I was much struck with the remarks of the honorable member for Grey, who has used facts and figures to prove' that this directory is peculiarly worthy of Government support, and not of Government hindrance. I have since been turning over in my mind what cause there could possibly have been for the Minister to ask us to impose the additional duty. I have come to the conclusion that he can have no other object than to benefit certain rich and important firms in Australia, competing with this directory, such as Sands and McDougall, in Melljourne, and other firms producing directories in other parts of the Commonwealth. If the Minister has any other reasons for his extraordinary action I hope he will explain them to the Committee, so that we may be able to appreciate, them at their proper weight. 11078 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - I hope the Minister will stand by his own arrangement. 11078 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The 4d. duty was undoubtedly the Minister's own arrangement. He will always keep any promise or arrangement he makes, unless it is convenient for him to get out of it. This seems to ha a case in which, for some reason, it is convenient for him to get out of his compact. Unless he has some valid ground to offer to the Committee, we are forced to the conclusion that he must be seeking to benefit and advantage certain Australian competitors of this great firm. I hope the Committee will accept the facts and figures adduced by the honorable member for Grev. Until contrary information is forthcoming, every honorable member must stand by the compact that the Minister himself made. 11078 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- One of the principal objects of the introduction of the Tariff was the removal of anomalies. We have already agreed to a duty of 6d. per lb. without any preference on the item advertisements, show cards, catalogues, &c, on which we divided a few minutes ago, and honorable members on the Opposition side are now trying to create an anomaly by imposing a preferential duty of 4'd. on directories. The honorable member for Wentworth stated that the New South Wales directory weighed about 8 lbs., and that, therefore, the duty on it would be 4s. Why, if he wanted to be fair, did he not take the case of an average, and not the biggest State? The Tasmanian Directory would be only about one-ninth or one-tenth of the size of that for New South Wales. The duty on it would, therefore, be only 6d. 11078 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - The rate is 6d. per lb., and therefore it is the same duty per in formation given. 11078 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I admit that, but why did not the honorable member state that in the case of some of the States the duty would be less than is. per volume? As Tasmania has only about one-tenth of the population of New South Wales, her directory could have only one-tenth of the number of names, and therefore would be only about one-tenth of the size, barring, of course, the advertisements, which we have already decided shall be charged 6d. per lb., if by themselves. 11078 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - Is Tasmania so rich that she can afford to pav this heavy duty ? 11078 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - This duty will not affect the poor farmer. He does not have the directory in his home, so that honorable members opposite cannot raise that cry this time. 11078 KI9 0 0 LIVINGSTON, John Mr Livingston - I think the farmers do have directories in their homes. They want them quite as much as anybody else does. 11078 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I am surprised to hear it. If the " poor farmer " has a directory he cannot be very poor. I have taken the trouble to look through these directories to ascertain where they are printed. They are . printed, I believe, by the Kelly's Directories Company, who do not state where their printing is done. I have no doubt that with their usual anxiety to get a cheap article they go outside of London. According to the imprint on the book, they have, in addition to their office in High Holborn, a place at Kingston-on-Thames. From a list which I hold in my hand of wages in the printing trade in England, Kingston-on-Thames is omitted. I see that some of the wages for compositors are as low as 23s. per week. At Exeter, compositors work 52½ hours per week for 23s. per week. I do not suppose there are three towns in Australia bigger than Exeter. Are we to allow directories which are not printed under union conditions to be brought into Australia? We do not know the conditions of labour in the place where this directory is produced. If the printing is done in Victoria or in New South Wales, or some of the other States, Wages Board conditions will apply. . At any rate, we intend to apply the new protection, and we can catch any printer who evades Wages Board conditions, employs an 'undue proportion of boy labour, or attempts to cut down wages. 11079 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member will apply the new protection when he gets it. 11079 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I have no doubt we shall have the honorable member's assistance. I believe there is a big majority in this House for the new protection. The A section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 6d. per lb., and many honorable members sitting in the Opposition corner have stated that they are prepared to vote for the recommendations of that section. They will, therefore, have to vote for a duty of 6d. per lb. on this item. I trust that they will do so, because then we shall be able to regulate the conditions under which these directories are printed. 11079 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I should not have spoken on this question, but for the remarks of the honorable member for Yarra. They are - I do not say intentionally - very misleading. The honorable member said that as there was a duty of 6d. per lb. on advertising matter, there ought to be a similar duty on directories. But the bulk of the contents of a directory is not advertising matter at all, "and other printed books, even if written by an Australian author and printed in London, are admitted free. In this case exception is being taken to a particular work, and an attempt is being made to put it on a different footing from that of all other printed books. In those circumstances, we ought to have very strong reasons before we agree to the proposal now before . us. The honorable member for Yarra's contention as to the wages paid in England might, from his point of view, be correct if there was no duty at all. But a duty of 4d., amounting to a considerable sum per volume, and multiplied by the very large number of volumes that have to be issued to pay for the cost of collection and of producing the work, represents so large a sum that, as the setting up has only to be done once, and the printing is all done by machinery, it would probably cover the whole cost of labour, even if the book were printed here. In those circumstances, seeing that the Government previously accepted a duty of 4d., and that an exception is proposed to be made of this particular work, although it is a printed book, while, if there could be competition from foreign countries, that competition will be prevented by a duty of 6d. per lb., we shall surely be doing quite sufficient if we fix a duty of 4d. against Great Britain. I hope the Committee will support the duty that was imposed when the item left this House. 11079 KVJ Bass 0 0 STORRER, David Mr STORRER .- I hope that the Committee will indorse the action of the Senate. While other books are free, as the honorable member for North Sydney said, this particular work is composed very largely of advertisements which run right through it. The Tasmania 11 ' directory is sold at one guinea. Its weight is under 3 lbs., so that a duty of 6d. per lb. is only 7^ per cent, on the price of the book. That is one of the lowest duties we have passed. We shall, therefore, be perfectly justified in charging 6d. per lb. on the article, which can well be produced in Australia. If the proprietors cannot sell it for a guinea in Tasmania in the future, there . are plenty of people who will be quite willing to pay the extra is. 6d. out of their own pockets., so long as the printing is clone in Australia. 11079 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- It is proposed to put a special disability, not upon one class of goods, but upon one particular firm which competes with certain other firms in the Australian directory market. We are asked to penalize one firm only, and to give its competitors an opportunity of shutting it out. I can see no reason for this action on the part of the Minister, other than a desire to benefit certain Australian firms at the expense of that one. If those firms refuse to do the printing for this firm, it will be shut absolutely out of the Australian market. I wish honorable members to consider that fact before they vote for the higher duty now proposed. 11080 KGZ Fremantle 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES .- The question before the Committee should be settled as we settled it before, with a preference of 2d. per lb. to Great Britain. The honorable member for Yarra argued the wrong way. He stated that the British workman is very poorly paid, but in voting for the same duty against Great Britain as against other countries, the honorable member will be offering the work on the same terms to the foreign workman, who is more poorly paid than the Britisher is. 11080 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - We are willing to make the general Tariff rate is. 11080 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - We cannot do that now. If the honorable member is consistent, and wants the highest-paid workmen in the world to do the work, he should vote for a preference to Great Britain, and not give the foreigner the same chalice as the Britisher. No one will contend that British workmen are not paid higher wages than are paid to workmen on the Continent. In this case, the suggestion of the. honorable member for Yarra is that we should offer a premium to people in Australia who require this work done to have it done by the poorly-paid foreign workmen. 11080 K5J Batman 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON .- The honorable member for Fremantle has said that the honorable member for Yarra is pleading that this work should be done by foreign workmen, but, as a matter of fact, the honorable member for Yarra is pleading that it should be done by Australian workmen. There is no need to send this work abroad, as it can be carried out here under reasonable conditions. There is no force in the suggestion of the honorable member for Fremantle that the honorable member for Yarra advocates that this printing should be done by foreign labour. 11080 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - That will be the effect of the vote honorable members opposite propose to give. 11080 K5J 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON - No; the effect of that vote will be to have the printing done here, and that is what the honorable member for Yarra has advocated: Question - That the requested amendment making the duty on item 356, paragraph c (Australian Directories, &c.) (United Kingdom), per lb., 6d., be made - put. The Committee divided.. 21 29 Majority ... ... 8 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Requested amendment not made. Item 356. Paper, viz. : - Printed Matter, n.e.i. (except newspapers registered for transmission through the post) being or containing advertisements, including Magazines containing advertisements being more than one-fifth of the printed matter contained within the outside covers, per lb. (General Tariff), 6d. ; and on and after 10th December, 1907, free. Request. - Make the duty " 6d., up to and including 9th December, 1907." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - That the requested amendment be made: 11080 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - This is supposed to be merely a formal amendment, but I am not quite sure, what will be the effect of it. 11081 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The same wording is suggested in the next item also. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - That is so; but so far as I can see, it is not stated that after the 9th December, 1907, the item shall be free. 11081 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The intention is that it shall be" free. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - There is no doubt that that is the intention, but under the wording suggested by the Senate, it is possible that the item may not be free, as intended by this Committee. It is possible,, unless we insert the word ' 1 free ' ' after the figures " 1907," that the printed matter referred to in this item may be brought under some other item, which is dutiable. 11081 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I do riot think the honor - able member need be afraid that what he suggests will occur. The wording proposed by the Senate is " 6d. up to and including 9th December, 1907." 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - -But it does not provide that the item shall be free after that date. 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - It must be if there is no duty imposed. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - This printed matter might come under some other heading. 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - It would come under item 371, where honorable members will find that "printed matter n.e.i." is made duty free. There is nothing in the amended wording suggested by the Senate that would make the item dutiable. 11081 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Apparently the only alteration of the wording suggested is to leave out the word " free." 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Honorable members will see that under item 371, all printed matter n.e.i. is made duty free. If there were any necessity for the use of the word " free " in this case, I should not object to its insertion. 11081 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - In every similar case we have used the word " free." 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Honorable members opposite are very suspicious that something is going to be done which does not appear on the face of the Tariff, and one does not feel disposed to accept proposals for amendments when they will not take one's word. 11081 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Why not add the word " free " ? 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Because it is of no use to repeat that word, when it is as clear as possible that there can be no misinterpretation of the Tariff.' I ask the Committee to agree to the request. 11081 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I ask the Minister to state why, if the position is as he has stated it, he invited the Committee on a previous occasion to agree to the proviso that on and after the 10th of December; 1907, the item should be free? »' 11081 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - That was probably an oversight. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - If that course has been pursued throughout the Tariff, why should we make an exception here? It may or may not have the effect which the Treasurer states. 11081 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - Can the honorable member cite a case where an article has been dealt with separately, as in item 371? 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I can cite many cases where, when an article has been made free on and after a given date that has been stated. 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - So it is stated here to be free, and item 371 makes it free after the date mentioned. 11081 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - That is another item. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I think that if I had time to look up the discussion in another place, it would be found that item 371 was not given as a reason for leaving out the word " free " in the case of this item. 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Does the honorable member mean to suggest that the Senate has requested the insertion of these, words as a kind of trick? 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - No. 11081 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is what it comes to. 11081 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The Senate can make a request without being guilty of a trick. I cannot see what the honorable gentleman objects to, because this item includes magazines, which are not specifically included in item 371. I think that the absence of the word "free" is an omission. We can do no harm by inserting the word ; on the contrary, we shall protect ourselves by doing so. Yet, when the omission is pointed out to the Minister, he wants to treat the item differently from every other item that we have made free, and expresses annoyance at the Committee raising an objection. I move - That the modification "but after that date free " be added. 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - T , will not accept the amendment. As all printed matter n.e.i. is free, under item 371, it would be ludicrous in this item, which will naturally fall under item 371, to say that it is free. 11082 KYT Kooyong 0 0 KNOX, William Mr KNOX .- From the corner we cannot hear what the Treasurer says at the table. If I correctly understand the few words I heard, he intends magazines to be free. If that is his intention, I cannot understand why he should not agree to the insertion of the word "free" in this item. It is idle cn his part to waste the time ot the Commit- . tee in this way. . His attitude seems to be dictated by a spirit of opposition. I hope that the Committee will unanimously decide that the word "free" shall be inserted. 11082 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - - The Minister has stated that the printed matter referred to in paragraph d of this item is included in item 371 ; but in the latter item lean find no mention of " magazines containing advertisements being more than one-fifth of the printed matter contained within the outside covers." 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - It includes " all printed matter n.e.i." 11082 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I notice that " books n.e.i." are specially mentioned in item 371, but that magazines are not. 11082 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - This amendment' seems to bc proposed in a spirit of pure cussedness on the part of the Opposition. I have repeatedly said that item 371 makes " printed matter, n.e.i.," free, and that we do not require to state that fact a. dozen times in the Tariff. 11082 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - What about magazines ? 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - They are free, I am sorry to say. ' I tried all I could to get a duty levied upon them, and in my estimation it is an improper thing that they are not dutiable. 11082 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable gentleman is just the man to. tax knowledge. 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I do not find much knowledge in imported magazines, two-thirds .or three-fourths of the contents of which are advertisements. There is very little that is worth reading in them. If the Committee want to take charge of the Tariff, let it do so. I do not want to get a ridiculous Tariff. I wish to avoid all repetition, and I ask the Committee not to agree to insert the word "free" in this item when that is not necessary, I do not intend to allow this stupid, absurd amendment to be made without entering a protest against it. It is not wanted, and it is only moved because the honorable member for North Sydney has the insane idea that the Senate wanted- to trick him. If there were any reason for inserting the word, I would agree to its insertion. But the provision suggested by the Senate is only required to make it certain that a duty was payable up to a certain date. From that date, the item will be absolutely free,, and that is provided for in a later item.1 The next request of the Senate is worded in exactly the same way. Therefore I want to know why honorable members should seek to put in this item a word which is not required. 11082 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Under what item, do books that are not n.e.i. come? 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - They come, I' think, under another item, but item 371 covers all books, n.e.i. It is not treating me quite fairly for honorable members to try to insert in item 356 the word " free " when there can be no possible doubt that all printed matter, n.e.i., is free under item 371. I hope that they will accept my assurance that the insertion of the word "free" will be only a repetition. I desire that there shall be no avoidable repetition. I have just been informed that if my proposal is not carried, there will be two statistical headings in the Tariff, and that it will create confusion. 11082 KYT 0 0 KNOX, William Mr Knox - That is- a valid reason, but it was not stated previously. 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member for Swan referred to magazines. This item mentions magazines containing advertisements being more than one-fifth of the printed matter contained within the outside covers. Item 371 would therefore cover magazines containing advertisements being less than one-fifth of the printed" contents, that is, if this item remains operative, as it will if we insert the word " free," and there would, as I have said, be two. statistical headings. 11082 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - Why not omit the item ? 11082 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - We must have authority to collect the duty up to the 9th- December. 11082 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The item was framed carefully bv the experts of the Department. It is dangerous to make ar> alteration such as is proposed, and I appeal to honorable members not to interfere* -with an arrangement which is. the result of a good ileal of departmental consideration. 11083 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Would it not simplify matters if we disagreed to the request? 11083 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - No; because the word "free " would then remain at the end of the item. If we make the requested amendment, that will settle the matter once and for all ; but if there were the slightest doubt as to the printed matter coming within paragraph d being free, I should take steps to make it so. 11083 F4P East Sydney 0 0 REID, George Mr REID . - I hope that the Treasurer will not think that any difference in regard to the wording of the item is due to mistrust of his assurances. The Tariff will be construed, not in accordance with Ministerial assurances, but according to the ordinary rules of construction, and if the printed matter coming within paragraph D is to be free, the logical thing to do would be to leave out the item. But We know that in a Tariff like this, unless we say specifically that a thing is to be free, it is almost sure to be treated later on as dutiable, under some item within which we did not intend it to come. It is extraordinary, since the Minister has told us that he means printed matter n.e.i. to be free, that he should refuse to allow the word "free" to be added to the item. 11083 K4I Bourke PROT Honorary Minister 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK . - In the Tariff as introduced, item 356 imposed a duty on magazines containing advertisements being more than one-fifth of the printed matter contained within the outer covers, while item 371 made magazines free containing a smaller proportion. The Committee determined that all magazines should be free ; but, to authorize the retention of the duty collected up to the date of its decision, it was necessary to agree to the item as it stood, adding the words " and on and after roth December, 1907, free." Then, to obviate the necessity of keeping two sets of statistics in regard to the one class of article, it was thought well to- alter this Molding in the Senate to " free, up to and including 9th December, 1907." The effect of this is that all magazines are now dealt with as coming under item '371, and "the statistics regarding their importation are kept under one heading. If the Committee insists on adding the word " free" to the item, it will create confusion in the minds of importers, and make necessary the keeping of two sets of statistics. 11083 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr WYNNE .- The Treasurer having stated that it is perfectly clear that duty is not. to be charged on magazines, the Committee should accept his assurance that the wording gives effect to its intention. On asking a departmental officer for an explanation, he told me that the effect of adding the word "free" would be to complicate the passing of entries. The wording suggested by the Senate legalizes the charging of duty up to the 9th December last, and makes it clear that from that date magazines must be ad- .mitted free. If the word "free " is added, importers of magazines will not know under what item to bring them, and trouble will be caused in regard to the filling up of the statistical forms required ' by the Department. 11083 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - No duty has been charged since 10th December. 11083 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - I should not have prolonged the discussion by speaking but that, in the first place, the Minister does not seem to be anxious to push on with the work before us, and secondly, that he has charged me with having-- 11083 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I withdraw the remarks to which the honorable member refers. 11083 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The Treasurer knows that I made no accusation of trickery against him or against the Senate. It is idle for any one to tell me that the statement of a Minister in respect of Tariff items can be accepted. I do not mean to suggest that Ministers intentionally say 'what they believe to be contrary to facts, but I know of cases in which it has been pointed out to Customs officers, that during a debate in Parliament the Minister then in charge of the Tariff stated that a certain article would not be dutiable. After a lapse of time the Customs Department has charged duty, and replied that the Crown Law authorities advised that duty must be collected in respect of that article, and that it could not be made free merely because of any statement by a Minister. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us to make absolutely clear our determination in respect of the Tariff. The honorary Minister has stated that if the word " free " be allowed to remain, importers will experience difficulty. I would point out that, to importers, a still greater difficulty would arise if the item were allowed to remain without the addition of words providing that after the date named it shall be free. The requested amendment provides for a duty of 6d. up to and including 9th December, 1907, but there is no statement as to whether or not a duty is to be collected in respect of it as from that date. Unless we wish to create confusion, we should provide, as we have done in every other case, that after -the date named the item shall be free. lt is useless for the Minister or the officers of the Department to assert that the addition of the words I suggest would give rise to difficulty in the preparation of statistics, for they certainly would not prevent the printed matter referred to in the item from falling under item 371. 11084 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - - It is admitted by the Government that whatever -form of words be adopted, this item will be free as from 10th December last. The Honorary Minister states, however, that the addition of words providing that as from that date it shall be frees would give rise to inconvenience, since we should thus have two items, both being free, in respect of the one class of goods. The Government proposal will ' not obviate that result, since the adoption of the Senate's request would not have the effect of including this item with item 371. 11084 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - But it would. 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I think that I can show that, according to ordinary principles of construction, it would not have that effect. Item 371 refers to all printed matter "n.e.i." The letters "n.e.i." do not mean all printed matter not subject to any duty, but all printed matter not included in any other item in the Customs Act. Item 356 will appear in the Customs Act in its present form, and the mere fact that it is free as from 10th December last will not bring magazines, for instance, within item 37i- 11084 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - - It will leave under it all magazines less .than one-fifth of which consist of advertisements. 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Minister gave away the whole point of his argument by referring to that very distinction. The item with which we are now dealing covers only magazines the advertisements in which comprise more than one-fifth of the printed matter within the covers. 11084 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - The rest must go somewhere. 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Quite so; and they go under item 371. 11084 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - Hear, hear. 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorary Minister agrees with me. I must remind him, however, that item 371 is confined, and always will be confined, as it stands, to -magazines less than one-fifth of the printed matter of which consists of advertisements. 11084 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - How can the honorable member say that when there is no limitation in item 37.1 ? 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The limitation is to be found in the letters " n.e.i." I therefore suggest that the Government is fighting for a shadow. 11084 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - - No doubt the arguments used by the honorable member come as readily to him as do others used by him in another place ; but, to my mind, they carry no weight. If the 'honorable member's argument in regard to magazines is sound, it must be equally good in respect of the " printed matter n.e.i. (except newspapers registered for transmission through the post)" covered by the item now under consideration. 11084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The answer is that newspapers registered for transmission through the post, being an exception to item 356, at all times are necessarily included under item 371. 11084 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I fail 'o' appreciate the distinction which the honorable member would draw between the two items. Item 356 and item 371: are both free. This is not a matter on which I feel very strongly, but the officers of the Department have carefully thought it out, and they consider that their proposal will prevent trouble, not only to the Department, but to importers, by obviating the necessity for two sets of registrations. That being so, unless it can be shown that our object will not; be carried out in this way, I think that it would not be fair to act contrary to the desire of the Department. There is no danger whatever to be apprehended. 11084 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Oh, yes. 11084 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - The honorable member is very imaginative in regard to this matter. It would be very unwise of the Committee to insert this amendment, which is a double-barrelled one, and one which would produce complications instead of leaving the position as plain to the importers and to the Department as it is at the present time. There is no necessity whatever for the amendment, and I say that we ought not to commence filling up a lot of pages of the Tariff schedule with double-barrelled duties of this character. 11085 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - Unfortunately, we cannot pay too much attention to the Treasurer's statements in this Chamber. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is a very insulting remark to make, and one for which the honorable member has no justification. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If the Treasurer will hold his tongue for a moment 1 will prove it. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member should not be offensive. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I hope that I am not offensive. I shall prove my statement. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - And become much more offensive than the honorable member has been in the past. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I wish to refer the Treasurer to an item- called wood screws. I suppose that he remembers it. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I do not remember much about it. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Treasurer admits that he does not remember much about it, and he certainly knows less. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member is not fit to be addressing the Chamber. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - After the insults that the Treasurer has been recently hurling across the chamber, I am prepared to admit that he is an authority upon insults.. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - The honorable member is endeavouring to make himself one. 11085 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the Treasurer not to continue his interjections. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Then I must ask the honorable member not to use offensive, language towards me. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I repeat that we have reason for taking what the Treasurer says in regard to this matter with a little suspicion, to say the least of it. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - That is an offensive statement for the honorable member to make and one which I resent. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Will the Treasurer allow me to 'explain? I meant no offence to him personally. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - No. The honorable member never does. 11085 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must again ask the Treasurer to cease these interjections. 11085 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I will not allow the honorable member to go on as he is doing. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Treasurer will allow me to go on until I have made my point. He may bully all that he chooses . 11085 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Will the honorable member for Parramatta address the Chair? 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - When the item of wood screws was under consideration, the Treasurer insisted upon re-arranging it precisely as he proposes to re-arrange this item. It was pointed out then - as it has been pointed out now - that trouble would be occasioned in regard to the statistics of the Department- 11085 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - When was this? 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member will find what took place recorded upon page 6768 of Hansard. 11085 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - Upon what date? 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Upon the 28th November of this present session. 11085 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - Then I rise to a point of order. I submit that the honorable member is out of order in quoting from the debates of the present session. 11085 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The gag? 11085 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch - It is a good thing to gag debate of this sort. 11085 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then I shall not auote from the Hansard report - I shall speak from memory. Upon the occasion in question, the Treasurer pleaded that he wanted to re-arrange the item of wood screws so as to make the administration of the Department easy. What was the result? Under the first arrangement made these screws were dutiable under the general Tariff at 5 per cent., and were admitted free under the Tariff for the United Kingdom. But, notwithstanding a long debate which took place upon the item - a debate similar to that which is taking place now - we found that wood screws were subjected to a duty for fourteen days. I hold in my hand a complaint which reached me only to-day from the Meadowbank Manufacturing Company in New South Wales - a protectionist firm - pointing out that during those fourteen davs it had had to pay clutv upon ten cases of these wood screws. 11085 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the honorable member not to go into details. 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not intend to do so. I am merely quoting an analogous case to that before us. The firm points out that on the day upon which it had to pay this duty another order - another, ukase I suppose we may call it - was issued declaring that these screws were not dutiable. But is the Customs Department granting the firm in question a refund? No. It took' this duty from that firm, and, after discovering its mistake, will not grant. a refund. That is why we wish to make the position in reference to the item under consideration perfectly plain in the Tariff. I intended no reflection upon the Treasurer, and if he would bluster a little less- 11086 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Mr Maloney - How about the honorable member's blustering? 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I hope that the honorable member will be quiet. It is not the blustering of the honorable member for Melbourne to which I object so much as the way in which he does it. 11086 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Mr Maloney - The honours are all with the honorable member. 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am not dealing with the honorable member at present. 11086 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Mr Maloney - I shall be ready when the honorable member is prepared to do so. 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The case which I have cited is exactly upon all fours with that which we are now considering. I want to guard against a repetition of this sort of administration, because, notwithstanding the asseverations of Ministers, after the Tariff has been passed, it will be handed over to the experts of the Customs Department to administer. If the Treasurer be sincere, he will not object to the insertion of words which will place the position beyond the possibility of cavil in the future. 11086 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I am rather glad that the honorable member has instanced the case of wood screws. I think he will find that when the point .was raised, I stated that if the interpretation that had been placed upon that item proved to be wrong, I would see that effect was given to the intention of the Committee. I did not discover till some days later that wood screws were dutiable, and I then asked the Customs authorities- - in consequence of my promise - not to charge the duty. 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - But what about the persons who paid the duty? 11086 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - If it be legal to do so I . shall ask the Minister of Customs to remit the duty paid, because it was charged under a misapprehension. It was not charged because theTariff intended it to be charged. Upon the occasion to which I refer, I stated that the information- with which I had been furnished was to the effect that these screws., were not dutiable, but as the schedule had to be forwarded to another .place, if it were subsequently discovered that they were dutiable, I would use every endeavour to give effect to the intention of the Committee. I did so, and I took the responsibility of my action, notwithstanding that it might not be in strict accordance with the law. I felt that I had made a promise to the Committee which I was bound to respect. I shall advise my colleague - the Minister of Trade and Customs - that under the exceptional circumstances, and in order to give effect to the promise which I gave in this Chamber, the duty . collected upon the item during the fourteen days to which reference has been made, should be remitted. 11086 KI9 0 0 LIVINGSTON, John Mr Livingston - Will there be a record of the Treasurer's promise in the Act ? 11086 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No ; it is only to be found in Hansard. 11086 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I cannot lookup Hat/sard at the moment; but, if I re7 member rightly, the question was raised, and I made a promise, which I carried out the moment I found that duty was being charged. Under the peculiar circumstances, I shall ask my colleague to remit any duties collected which were not intended under the. Tariff'. I am glad that the point has been raised, because it gives me this opportunity to make an explanation, and show that I do not desire to see the wishes of Parliament ignored in the regulation. I hope honorable members will support me in regard to the item now before the Committee, not for my sake, but ' in order to make the administration of the Tariff as simple as possible. 11086 L1N Corangamite 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Mr WILSON .- The last few words of the Treasurer show that he is getting into a better temper. ' Without wishing to be offensive in any way, I may point out that the Treasurer may hot always be occupying his present position and, in time to come, the Act may be interpreted in the way to which exception has teen taken. The easiest solution of the difficulty would be to accept the simple ,- proposal of the honorable member for North Sydney. The explanations offered by the-. . Treasurer, and by the Honorary Minister^, to .transfer cardboard and pasteboard from paragraph m to paragraph n. I feel satisfied that if there had been any attempt to manufacture the articles here the Senate would not have sent down this request concerning the issue of ,a proclamation. [ shall not vote to impose a duty which will only be a revenue one if there is no intention to establish an industry. I do not be'lieve that there is any such intention, and, therefore, I think that the Minister would, be wise tq agree to the transfer I have suggested. 11092 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE .- I am informed that there is some doubt as to whether cardboard and pasteboard are made here. Under those circumstances, and in order to avoid a long debate and to get on with the Tariff, I propose to ask the Committee not to agree to the Senate's request in that regard. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Motion (bv Sir ' William Lyne) agreed to- That the requested amendment in paragraph m he made. 11092 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - In view of what has taken place on previous requests of this kind - although what I am saving now will not prevent me from dealing with one case, and trying to get the Committee to agree to the principle - I feel, that unless I give way in this instance there will be a long debate. I move - That the requested amendment inserting new paragraph mm be not made. 11092 L17 Dalley 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS . - I am very pleased that the Treasurer has asked the Committee to disagree with the Senate -on this occasion, in consequence of some".thing which has taken place here, but he intimated that probably, on another item, he would ask us to consent to the imposition of duties by proclamation. I suppose that he was alluding to the timber duties. I believe that I have touched the spot, sir. Now that I am on it; I wish to point out that the Treasurer is proposing to surrender on a small item, and to make a fight on one more important. It has been proposed in connexion with four or five items that duties should come into operation on proclamation. But we refused, on the honorable gentleman's own motion, to sanction this in regard to locks, and, later, voted against it in. regard to lubricants, the discussion on both occasions showing that honorable members were opposed to the arrangement. If the Treasurer wishes to obtain a contrary decision from the Committee in regard to timber, there will be a fight about it. 11092 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I felt bound to refer to the matter, so that I might be free to have the question fought out in regard to some other item, should I feel so disposed. I did not wish to be bound to oppose a provision of this kind on every occasion, merely because I took exception to it under certain circumstances. T have reserved my right to deal as I think fit in regard to similar proposals elsewhere. Motion agreed to. Requested amendment not made. Requested amendments in item 356? paragraph n (Millboard, &c), paragraph pp (Pulp Boa.rd), paragraph y (Roofing Paper, &c), paragraph AA (Writing and Typewriting Paper), paragraph dd (Photographic Paper), and paragraph ee (Wax Stencil Paper, &c.) made. Requested amendment in item 357, paragraph a (Pencil Cases, &c), postponed. Requested amendments in item 357, paragraph a (Paper Lace), and paragraphs b and c (Matrices for Stereotyping) made. Item 359. Printing Ink, invoiced at 6d. and under, per lb., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), '25 per cent. Request. - Insert "News" before "Printing Ink," and and in packages containing not less than r cwt." after "per lb." Motion (by Sir William Lyne) pro- posed - That the requested amendment be made. Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [1.0.28].- I take this opportunity to draw attention to the request of a constituent to whom it seems to me redress should be given. The case is similar to one referred to by the honorable member fox Parramatta, duties having been levied contrary to the intention of Parliament. 11092 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is a number of such cases. Colonel FOXTON.- In a letter which I have received he puts the case briefly., stating that where an ad valorem duty has been levied on the contents of a bottle, duty is also charged on the bottle itself, but that where the duty on the contents is specific, no charge has been made on the bottle. The intention of Parliament has now been put beyond doubt by the making of an amendment requested bv the Senate in regard to the duty on bottles: But what I wish to draw attention to is the fact that certain persons have been compelled to pay duty contrary to the intention of Parliament, and, as a matter of bare justice, should have it refunded. 11093 KIN Protectionist 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - The refunding of the duty is a difficult matter to arrange for. In regard to screws the difficulty was not very great, because the importations involved were small, and the original importer is probably known. Trouble invariably arises in attempting to make refunds of duty in respect of imports that have been distributed. Colonel Foxton. - But' the position is different where goods remain in the hands of the original importers. 11093 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - In such cases. I shall have no objection to a refund, but I have to' test the feeling of the Committee as to refunds being made in such circumstances. The question was tested when the first Federal Tariff was under consideration, and whilst I have always been in favour of a refund where the goods are held by the original importers - where the goods can be traced - the decision of the House on that occasion was that no refund should be made. Colonel Foxton. - That was where a duty had been altered. 11093 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - All I can sal, is that the practice of making refunds has not been adopted, but that I intend to try to induce the Collector of Customs to make refunds in respect of the duty paid on screws, which existed for only fourteen days. I shall take the trouble to ascertain what was the intention so far as this item is concerned, and whilst I cannot make any promise, I assure the honorable member for Brisbane that I regard the matter favorably, and shall see what can be done. 11093 JM2 Capricornia 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER .- I wish to ask' the Treasurer whether there is any special reason why the limitation of 1 cwt. should be imposed. Many newspaper proprietors import their ink in smaller quantities. 11093 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr HUME COOK - -The limitation was recommended by the protectionist section of the Tariff' Commission. 11093 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - It will operate in favour of those who import large quantities. Why make this differentiation between large and small newspaper proprietois? 11093 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - I am informed that, as a rule, this class of ink is imported in packages containing not less than 1 cwt. 11093 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - Then there is no reason to insert the limitation. I do. not think that we ought to differentiate between the two classes of importers. 11093 JWC Macquarie 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR .- This is a very necessary differentiation. If it were not made, all inks would come, under item 358, and be dutiable at a much higher rate. News ink is sold at from 3d. to 6d. per lb. It is a cheap ink, and 'if it were not specialized in this item it would be dutiable at the higher rate imposed in respect of jobbing ink's of much better quality. 11093 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr Archer - I specially asked why the limitation as to packages of 1 cwt. should be imposed. 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR - It should be imposed because news printing ink is not imported in smaller quantities. I have been engaged in the printing industry for some years, and have no hesitation in saying that no printer would think of buying less than 1 cwt. of news ink. Without this limitation, there would be a danger of the better classes of ink, which are always put up in smaller packages, evading the. higher duty imposed to protect the local manufacturers. 11093 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Higher duties have to be paid in respect of job printing inks: 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR - If they are imported ; but there is no need to import them, since we have many local manufacturers of printers' inks. Whilst news printing ink is sold at 6d. per lb., as much as 10s. per lb. is charged for the best job printing inks. It is difficult even for an expert to differentiate between good and inferior ink, unless he has an opportunity to test them on a machine, That being so, unless we insert this limitation we shall not be able to effectively regulate the duties. Local competition is sufficient to keep the prices fairly even, and I hope that the request will be agreed to. 11093 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY . From the remarks made by the honorable member for_ Macquarie, it is clear in the first place that news printing ink imported for -the use of the great' dailies is usually priced at 6d. per lb. 11093 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - At about 3d. or 4d. per lb. 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr - The price runs as low as 3d. or 4d. 11093 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Then 6d. per lb. is a. liberal estimate.- If we accept this reque.it, we shall allow the big daily newspaper proprietors, who never import package's containing less than i cwt., an advantage of more than ioo per cent, over owners of small newspapers. 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr Even small newspaper proprietors do not import news printing ink in packages of less than i cwt. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY It seems to me that this limitation should not be imposed. Those newspaper proprietors who desire to import ink in smaller quantities w ill — if the Treasurer's proposal be carried—hav e to pay more than ioo per cent, upon it , while th great metropolitan organs will get their ink at 30 per cent, and 25 per cent. 11094 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr Archer And the Bulletin, of course. 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR - It should be imposed because news printing ink is not imported in smaller quantities. I have been engaged in the printing industry for some years, and have no hesitation in saying that no printer would think of buying less than 1 cwt. of news ink. Without this limitation, there would be a danger of the better classes of ink, which are always put up in smaller packages, evading the. higher duty imposed to protect the local manufacturers. 11093 F4P 0 0 REID, George Mr Reid - Higher duties have to be paid in respect of job printing inks: 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr CARR - If they are imported ; but there is no need to import them, since we have many local manufacturers of printers' inks. Whilst news printing ink is sold at 6d. per lb., as much as 10s. per lb. is charged for the best job printing inks. It is difficult even for an expert to differentiate between good and inferior ink, unless he has an opportunity to test them on a machine, That being so, unless we insert this limitation we shall not be able to effectively regulate the duties. Local competition is sufficient to keep the prices fairly even, and I hope that the request will be agreed to. 11093 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY . From the remarks made by the honorable member for_ Macquarie, it is clear in the first place that news printing ink imported for -the use of the great' dailies is usually priced at 6d. per lb. 11093 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - At about 3d. or 4d. per lb. 11093 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr - The price runs as low as 3d. or 4d. 11093 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Then 6d. per lb. is a. liberal estimate.- If we accept this reque.it, we shall allow the big daily newspaper proprietors, who never import package's containing less than i cwt., an advantage of more than ioo per cent, over owners of small newspapers. 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr Even small newspaper proprietors do not import news printing ink in packages of less than i cwt. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY Yes . We must not leave the Bulletin out of consideration , when we are dealing with the present Government. 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr oca l manufacturers will supply the smaller newspapers with ink. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The small man is to be supplied with the local article, while the big newspaper proprietors are to be encouraged to import their inks ? 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr here is absolutely no reason in the honorable member's statement. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The Government ought not to press this proposal.. -It is clear 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr Clear as ink. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY —Whe n the honorable member brings his colossal intellect to bear upon me all at once, it strikes me dumb. On what ground does the Treasurer propose . to confer this enormous advantage upon the great daily newspapers of Australia? During the' past few weeks, we have learned what tremendous advantages have been granted bv Ministerial ukase— behind the back of Parliament o certain daily and weekly newspapers. Here is a proposal to favour those journals, for which they ask the authority of Parliament. While I commend them for their straightforwardness upon this occasion, I hope that the Committee will oppose the proposal of the. Treasurer, even though the honorable member for Macquarie says that he knows all about all the newspapers of Australia. 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr I did not say that. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I was under the impression that the honorable member stated that he knew all about them, and that, therefore, we ought to pardon him for speaking as the one authority upon this subject. 11094 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr That was a misconception on the part of the honorable member. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I confess that I find considerable difficulty in understanding all that passes through the honorable member's mind. In that, however, I do not think that I stand alone. I hope that the Treasurer will be able to adduce some reason for his action. ' It will not be palatable for the small newspapers of Australia to learn that he proposes to penalize them to the extent of more than 100 per cent, upon their inks whilst he allows the Age, Argus, Sydney Morning Herald, and the Bulletin to obtain their inks at 25 per cent. 11094 10.45 KUF Darling 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE The honorable member for- Wentworth entertains the extraordinary idea, that country newspaper proprietors desire to import their inks. Why they should wish to do so—seein g that they can obtain the best quality of ink locally— I do not know. 11094 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly Will the Worker import its, ink in less quantities than 1 cwt. ? 11094 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE The Worker is an Australian journal which supports Australian industry. It patronizes Australian ink, which is equal to any ink that, can be obtained in the world. The big daily newspapers can also purchase their supplies clink locally if they wish to do. so. This is a protectionist Parliament, ancl, as such, does not specially study thp interests cf the importers. The manufacturers of ink who have' supplied the local market very largely 11094 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Except in the matte of percussive rock drills. 11094 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE As this is a protectionist Parliament, we desire to grant protection all round. The object of inserting in this item a condition as to quantity is to differentiate between newspaper ink and ink which is used for job printing. I. think that the alteration in the wording of the item requested by the Senate constitutes an improvement, and one which will render the administration of the Customs Department easier. 11094 10.47 L0P Wimmera 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON I clo not think • any danger need be apprehended as to the small newspapers if we accede to the request of the Senate. There was such a danger under the Tariff in its original form, but that was overcome at the instance of the honorable member for Capricornia. The object of the Senate in requesting an amendment of the item is to prevent the more expensive ink being imported under the lower duty. As a matter of fact, nearly all the news ink imported is imported in quantities over 1 cwt. It is made up in the Commonwealth into smaller parcels. 11095 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Does the honorable member think that the request of the Senate constitutes an improvement ? 11095 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON es . I rose merely to explain that under the old Tariff there was a danger, but that under the new Tariff,- with the suggested amendments of the Senate, the matter is made clear, and jobbing inks of the more expensive kind are prevented from coming in under the lower duty imposed on news inks. Motion agreed -to. Requested amendment made. 11095 10.50 KIN Hume Protectionist Treasurer 1 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE I do not desire to suggest an adjournment, though I am tired; but we have now arrived at a stage when two or three-items which have been postponed ought to be taken into consideration and dealt with, one in relation to the other. If we go any further to-night, I shall not be able, I am afraid, to deal with those items, as they should be dealt with, in one day. 11095 10.51 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON I see that in the items which follow, in relation to pencils, pens, and so forth, the duties run 5 per cent, and free, 25 per cent, and 30 per cent.,, and so forth, and I suggest that there seems no reason for these slight differences in the higher and lower grades, which can only make the administration more difficult. It would be much more simple if one or other duty were adopted. Progress reported. 11095 10:52:00 House adjourned at 10.52 p.m.