1909-05-28 3 4 0 REPS 169 0 House of Representatives 1909-05-28 Mr. Speakertook the chair at 10:30 a.m., and read prayers. 169 papers 169 10.30 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER By the division taken yesterday afternoon the House declared that it was not disposed to continue the discussion of the proposed Address-in-Reply to the speech of His Excellency the Governor-General, and as that course was taken in opposition to the Ministry, we do not propose to proceed further with business at this sitting, and will take the earliest opportunity to consider our position. But before moving the adjournment -of the House I wish to be allowed, by the courtesy of the Opposition, to lay on the table— Correspondence regarding a Conference between Remresentatives of His Majesty's Government and the Governments of the self-governing Dominions on the subject of Naval and Military Defence, and to move - That the document be printed 169 10.31 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Mr. Speaker- 169 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Judas ! 169 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Order! 169 F4S ANTI-SOC 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook It is time that this was stopped, and it. will have to be stopped. 169 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I had yesterday to call the attention of the honorable member for Hume to the fact that he must not employ the expression which he has just used, and at my request he withdrew t. I ask him now to withdraw it again, and I think that it is due to the House, as this is the second occasion upon which a withdrawal has been required of him, that he should express his regret that he has been led to repeat it. 170 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Yesterday, when you, Sir, requested me to withdraw the expression, I did so, and I withdraw it again now. But when I am out of the Chamber I need not withdraw it. 170 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr Crouch —IS that a proper withdrawal? I would point out, Sir, that the expression has been used, not in the heat of the moment, but deliberately. Its use was deliberate yesterday, and again this morning. 170 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER The honorable member for Htime has absolutely withdrawn his remark. What he may do outside the Chamber is no concern of mine. The question of taste which arises as to the propriety of using such an expression must be settled by the honorable member himself; it is not the concern of the Speaker. 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN On reflection, I think that it will be more convenient if I defer, until the adjournment is moved, the remarks I had intended to make. 170 adjournment 170 170 10.34 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I move- That the House do now adjourn I may add that I learn that in another place the Address-in-Reply has been adopted. 170 K4I PROT 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook Until when it is proposed to adjourn? 170 10.34 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I am willing to meet the convenience of honorable members in the matter. 170 10.35 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN —The occurrence which took place when I rose to address you just now, Mr. Speaker, calls for some brief notice. Last night I deliberately' refrained from referring to the subject, first, because personal conflict is antipathetic to me, and, in the next place, because I wa's of 'opinion that the honorable member for Flume was not weighing his words. 170 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Order! HONORABLE MEMBERS - Hear, hear 170 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne —Hear, hear. I must have a "go" if the honorable member for Ballarat does. 170 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER May I say to the House that, when the Speaker rises to intervene, applause is as much out of place as any sign of disapproval? The expression of either approval or disapproval should be suppressed on such an. occasion. I rose to remind the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, as I reminded him yesterday, that it is not in order to refer to remarks which have been withdrawn. As the honorable member for Hume has withdrawn the 'expression upon which he is commenting, the honorable and learned member for Ballarat must not further refer'to it. 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I intend to deal only with statements made by the honorable member in the speech which he delivered yesterday afternoon. Personal criticism, while a necessary element in political discussion, should be removed as fax as possible from personal altercation, in which I do not propose to take any part. I was unable to gather from his remarks any coherent statement of the supposed or alleged grievances of the honorable member, but whatever may be in his mind, no small section of honorable members is already fully acquainted with all the facts. 170 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne They axe much the same as their leader 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Moreaver, of' the members of the party with which I have always been associated, only four now sit on the other side of the Chamber, and three of them have, expressly disclaimed, both here and outside, any sympathy with the honorable member's remarks and actions. Therefore, he stand absolutely alone. 170 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I will teach the honorable member that before I have done with him. 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN He is entitled to stand absolutely alone. We are all compelled to do that at times 170 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I will make the honorable member stand alone by-and-by. 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN —I have often stood alone before. 170 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL But not for long 170 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN That has been due to the choice of others. 171 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison The honorable member has slung over his friends. 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I think that I have made a sufficient reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Hume. If any particular allegation is made by him, it can be dealt with later. It is sufficient to say that his grievances, i f he has any, exist only in his own mind. My reply to the interjection of the honorable member for Hindmarsh is that there is not time to discuss my relations with the Labour Administration. In the entertaining review of the Attorney-General last night, there were convenient gaps in what, by courtesy, might be called his argument. 171 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald If any one could have seen the honorable member then he would not have thought that he considered the speech entertaining- 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Th e interjection_ is very good as a joke, but has no relevance as a statement of fact. 171 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald I never saw a man look so cowed. I was really sorry for the honorable member 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN If that were truth ! 171 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald It is 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN How odd then that four or five honorable members have come to me this morning, to say, " I never saw you appear less interested than you were yesterday afternoon." These were not all honorable members sitting behind me, and they, at all events, correctly interpreted my mood. 171 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Th e honorable member's true character will be known before long ! 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I was about to remind the interjector and the Attorney-General very mildly that, if we are to rely on statements of past relations, and the fact that I have been found in opposition at crucial moments to both of the Labour Governments 171 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne And found wanting! 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN We also require to remember that it has been by the hands of the Labour Party that each of the two Ad- •ministrations with which I have been connected have been removed from office. 171 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer At very different periods of time. 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Th e inconvenient fact which I have mentioned requires to be remembered. 171 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins Th e honorable member resigned from office. 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Whe n an adverse vote had been carried by the Labour Party on each occasion. 171 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins No t against the honorable member's Ministry. 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN In the second case that was distinctly so. 171 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins Bu t as to the first case? 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN In the first case there was not a vote given in terms against the Ministry, but there was what was quite equivalent, since on the hustings before we were returned, and also here, I had announced that the Government would accept their amendment as a challenge to us. I made no complaint on either of those occasions, and, on the latter, united with the members of the Labour Party in order to make the proceedings as brief as possible. We were then at the close of a session; and i f we had chosen to require a vote of want-of-confidence debate before retiring, and to fight that question in the House, the remainder of the session, or the greater part of it, would have been fruitlessly consumed. We were then in the middle of November, and, consequently, we should have had a dislocation of public business. 171 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts I s the honorable member referring to last session ? 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I am 171 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts Doe s the honorable member not remember- that he submitted a motion for the purpose of entering into a long debate, but that the Opposition prevented him from carrying that purpose out? 171 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I did no such thing ; I submitted a simple-motion for the adjournment of the House, and induced silence on the part of every honorable member who was supporting us, or sympathized with us. I even declined support that was offered to us from other parties, and which would have resulted, at least, in a long debate, and, upon terms, in my retention of office. I claim no special virtue for that. I say that the state of business made our action the proper thing to do in the public interest, and we did it. The course which we took yesterday was, as far as possible, modelled on the same lines. I have indicated that, at this stage of the session, due discussion of the lengthy opening Speech, much of it unable to be dealt with this session, would have been to the prejudice of public business, and the postponement of necessary measures. It was unjustifiable. Consequently I made a short statement to that effect, paving the way so that the Prime Minister on behalf of his party, could give any exposition of his policy he thought necessary under the circumstances. So far as that policy is concerned, I may say, in passing, that, before it was announced, I had been discussing, the general questions of the day, most of which it touched upon,, and that, after the policy was announced, I continued the discussion at length in many parts of the Commonwealth. Though, as the Prime Minister said last night, he had not read the criticism, that is not a matter for which I am in any way responsible. 172 10.34 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Ma y I say tbat I read one, but refrained from discussing it for obvious reasons? 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Ther e may have been more than obvious reasons. 172 10.34 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I shall discuss it later on. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Th e fact was that in the report of my financial criticism of the Premier's policy, in the Sydney speech, the different financial periods and some of the figures were confused to such an extent as to make it difficult to understand my conclusions. 172 10.34 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher In some of the reports. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN In one of them. 1 afterwards, in successive speeches, in order to make up for that defective report, dealt with those matters point by point. If the Prime Minister did. not acquaint himself with those speeches, that is his affair, and not mine. The fact remains that, so far as the policy is concerned, I have already fully expressed upon it the opinions which were shared by my associates and myself. Indeed, I summarized them again, except on the financial question, in Melbourne the night before we met here. I have done my part as to the policy. Now as to procedure. We adopted a method which gave the Prime Minister the opportunity if he had thought fit, after I pointedly directed his attention to the state of the House,' and to the impossibility of his hoping to carry out his programme, of •submitting any proposition he desired as to the conduct of ibusiness. This gave the Prime Minister every opportunity, and the widest latitude for taking a course himself, or suggesting any step to us which would have left a clear course open. When, in the exercise of his undoubted prerogative he chose to take no course or step, but to require a challenge from us, we gave him at once the same kind of 'direct challenge that was given last session to us. That is to say, we gave him a challenge that was disposed of without loss of time. We did this knowing that it must be followed by the motion for the adjournment of the House, on which it is possible for any ventilation of grievances to take place. That was fully calculated on by us, and would be fully understood by the merest tyro in politics. Consequently, when he said that the closure was applied last night, the statement, though technically justifiable, is not justifiable in fact. 172 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Nonsense 172 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes —Th e honorable member and his friends would have applied the other gag, had he had the numbers. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Indeed , we should not. 172 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes Th e honorable member and his friends did what they were able to do, and will do so to the end. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Of course, we shall; but. we shall not do all we are able to do, when we do not think it judicious or wise. 172 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Se e what is said in the Melbourne Age this morning. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Parliamentar y practice is plain. After pointing out that the action yesterday amounted to an application of the closure, the newspaper went on to say that honorable members took advantage of the motion for the adjournment of the House. Is it to be supposed that honorable members on this side did not know that a motion for the adjournment of the House must follow, as the next step, which, when launched,' was bound to throw open the gates? The youngest member knows that. 172 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor Bu t the speech of the Governor-General could not be discussed. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Exactl y ; as a speech that is true. 172 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor Therefore , what the honorable member says is a quibble. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Is it ? As a matter of fact, portions of the Governor-General's speech were'- discussed all the evening. 172 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor The n they were out of order. 172 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN No , they properly came under the motion. When, the Prime Minister asked' that there should be no limitation of debate, and expressed the opinion that, under the circumstances, the motion should be given a generous interpretation, I , ' and every one here, assented. There was no attempt at any time during the whole of the debate to object in any way to the course which honorable members opposite took. They had a free hand. There was not a single appeal to the Speaker on the point. 173 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald It is quite evident that the honorable member did not take any notice of the speech of the Attorney-General 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I do not say that I heard the whole, though I heard the most, of that speech. 173 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald .—It will take the honorable member a long time to explain this morning 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I do not propose to do more to-day than to point out that, although no motion was proposed by me, the Prime Minister did not see fit to make any motion of his own, or suggest any actioni for resoiving the condition of affairs in the House to which I had most pointedly •called his attention. In the absence of any action on his part, or a proposal of any kind for meeting the present situation, i t became our duty to take the action we did. That action was absolutely justified, and will be justified. 173 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Rot ! 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I do not propose to deal further with last night's situation, because honorable members on both sides of the House are aware that the course adopted was in accordance with one of the most familiar motions made daily in Parliament. It was known as well to the youngest as to the oldest member of the House that after the success of the first motion not only would every opportunity for criticism be supplied on the very next motion—tha t for the adjournment— but , further still, when the House meets again that criticism would be resumed, and would necessarily range over the whole field into which honorable members felt inclined to enter. It would embrace a discussion of every business proposition that can be dealt with this session or which honorable members think may not be dealt with, although it ought to be. 173 10.30 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Is not that an assumption? 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN —No . I say that in the natural course of events after the passing of such a motion as that carried last night i f a change of Administration follows 173 10.30 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Tha. t is an assumption, and the honorable member ought not to discuss it here. 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I am simply referring to the natural course of events, and have never, either by word or by implication 173 10.30 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher —Ther e is a very studied implication. 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN No t in my mind. 173 10.30 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Th e honorable member is the first man occupying his position that I have heard speaking in this way. 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I have heard the honorable member, or rather some of his colleagues, doing little else lately. All I say is that i f events follow the usual course— I am prepared to choose any other term that the honorable member prefers—an d i f a change takes place in the Administration of the country there will then be the fullest opportunity in this House to consider all the practical questions relating to the session or to this Parliament. Consequently no action has been taken which can prevent the right of free criticism of the whole of the parliamentary business hitherto passed or yet to1 be passed.. 173 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts Why apologize? 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Whe n I apologize the honorable member may make a point of it. At present I am not apologizing but analyzing our procedure. With all these opportunities offered for discussing in Parliament every question now proposed or that may hereafter be proposed, no honorable member can say that the present Ministerial party will lose a tittle of their rights, privileges, or powers of speech as the result of our action. What they did lose was the opportunity to enter upon the general and profitless discussion here of a programme for the next election. To that waste of time I distinctly took exception yesterday from the same motive that led me to take a particular course at the end of last session, when retiring from office. My object was to avoid a hopeless sacrifice of parliamentary time at a period of the session when there is no time to be lost. 173 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison Th e usual misrepresentation. 173 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Eas y to say, but impossible to prove. Honorable members opposite regard this artificial pretence of a grievance as another little bit of very dry fuel that they wish to use as soon as possible in order to raise their little hot-air balloon to catch the eye of the country. Let them puff it as soon and as high as they can. The cool judgment of the electors hi a very short time will deprive it of its breath of buoyancy. I have not the least. alarm as to that, and not the least interest in it. It is not my business to send people to" the country, and, therefore, I shall not talk about it, and do not talk about i t . 174 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison Oh! 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Whe n I do not speak of it one half of the honorable members opposite, in chorus, invite me to do so, and when I speak of it the other half object. There is no pleasing them. The Government, well within their rights, declined to follow the straightforward course that we took last year in similar circumstances. They even declined to choose their own path out. This forced us to choose the shortest that could be taken. We are content with the result, and will proceed with any other step that may be necessary to get to real business or enable us to put our consecutive and comprehensive platform of Liberal legislation before the country. 174 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews Th e honorable member should look at the Liberals behind him. 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Thi s is not a joke. I am merely quoting from the speeches delivered last night. All the taunts then hurled at us from the Government side"of the House were to the effect that its programme was identical with our own, and that, therefore, we should not object to their holding office. 174 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES .—We said that ours was the same as the honorable member's used to be. 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN When I tell honorable members opposite that we shall go to the country with a Liberal programme, we are greeted with the machine-made laugh. Honorable members opposite are thus laughing at everything practical in their own programme. 174 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor A programme dictated by the Chairman of the Employers' Federation. 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN Th e honorable member's programme was born mutilated. Our programme is liberal and practical, and when put to the electors it will sweep the countrv. 174 10.57 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Th e honorable and learned member for Ballarat has just favoured us for the first time with some excuses for his present action. He has found that which we feared he had lost for ever^—hi s facility for explaining and excusing everything—an d has given us fresh occasion for amazement, and for some little amusement. The honorable gentleman has been endeavouring to elevate political assassination into a fine art, and to place it upon a scientific basis. It appears now that the reason why he assassinated the Watson Government was that he was inveigled under specious pretences to draft an amendment which he had not the faintest idea would have the result that followed its adoption. 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I rise to a point of order. Last night I contradicted the honorable member when he made the same statement. I told him then that it was entirely erroneous, and that he had read the speech in which, the charge was made against me, but had failed to read the reply that I made at the same time. 174 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I see no point of order in the honorable member's contention. 174 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I submit, sir, that the honorable member is not entitled to repeat an assertion relating to an honorable mem- .ber that has been directly contradicted by that honorable member. 174 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER It is customary in Parliament for an honorable member to accept the assurance of another honorable member. 174 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Th e honorable member for Ballarat has explained that he was entrapped into drafting the amendment, which brought about the defeat of the Watson Government. I quoted last night, by way of reply, the words used by the right honorable member for East Sydney to the effect that that was a hollow and specious statement of facts. If the honorable member says it is not true that he drafted that amendment, or that he voted for/ it under the belief that it was not vital to us, let him still take refuge in what flimsy protection such a denial will give him, for no other mani in the country will believe him. He has explained and justified the assassination of the Watson Government which he promised! to loyally support. Had De Quincey lived until now he would have been able to include in hisdelightful essay on Murder as a Fine Art the methods of the honorable member for Ballarat, for no man has adopted such a variety of methods, and none has contrived to more successfully evade the consequences of his political crimes. His last assassination in some respects out-Herods Herod, but his former achievements ran it hard for first place. Then there was the assassination of the Reid Government. He made that Government, he pledged him-.self to support it, he destroyed it by a speech which the right honorable member for East Sydney very properly assumed was not only the beginning of the end but the end itself. The right honorable member therefore came down with a Governor-General's speech of one paragraph; but did that save him from the wrath to come ? We go out be- cause our speech contains thirty-two clauses. He went out because his contained only one clause. Was the life of the right honorable member's Government cut short because the programme put before the House was too long for consideration? Rather it was such as could have been comfortably got through in one sitting day, and the right honorable member had such in contemplation. But it did not save him for a single hour. The honorable and learned member for Ballarat has told us that the right honorable member for East Sydney was under a complete misapprehension. When at Ballarat he gave the right honorable member notice to quit he never meant it. At the very moment when the right honorable member's political brains were falling over his shoulders, when his scalp was dangling at the honorable member's belt, the honorable member was really his best friend. God save us from such friends! Last night the honorable member abandoned the finer resources of political assassination and resorted to the bludgeon of the cannibal. Having perhaps exhausted all the finer possibilities of the art, or desiring to exhibit his versatility $n his execrable profession he came out and bludgeoned us in the open light of day. It was then that I heard from this side of the House some mention of Judas. I do not agree with that ; it is not fair—t o Judas, for whom there is this to be said, that he did not gag the man whom he betrayed, nor did he fail to hang himself afterwards. 175 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Order ; the honorable member is referring to a remark that wan "withdrawn, and his reference to it aggravates the injury of it. I ask him to withdraw and apologize. 175 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Tw o old jokes. Keep on repeating them 175 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Ver y well, Mr. Speaker. I shall be pleased to refrain from touching on that subject again. The honorable member for Ballarat said that he afforded the Prime Minister an opportunity to make an amended statement. 175 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin To choose his own course 175 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES That was very good of the honorable member, and had the Prime Minister known that it was the length of our programme to which exception was taken, we should have been most happy to cut off the part which offended the honorable member. But since I have been in Parliament I have never known the leader of any Government to bring down a programme —excep t in the one case that I have already referred to—whic h the House did not say and know was unlikely to be wholly completed in that session. It is the custom of Governments to do so, and it has never been the practice of any House desirous of pushing on with the public business to throw out a Government because its programme was too long, when that programme contained those things which were necessary to be done at the time. Now what is to be done ? The honorable member says that his programme and ours are the same. His is the Liberal programme, and he has allied himself with those Liberals whom we see around him—wolve s whose eyes gleam redly through their sheep'swool covering—i n order the more speedily and effectively to carry it out. He says that he slew us quickly in order to save us from the tortures of a lingering death, and that in order that there should be no interruption of public business. He declared that it was this alone that actuated him in committing an act of the basest ingratitude towards this party, and one without precedent at any rate in the history of the Commonwealth Parliament. The people of this country, in spite of every effort to the contrary, ' will be made acquainted with the true facts of this case. Although the honorable member has thrown over him the shield of the most powerful organ in this State, if not in Australia, he will find that even that will not now save him, for the people can never be made to understand how it happens that the honorable member, who was our ally for the best part of nine years, and who was prepared to be our colleague fifteen months ago 175 JSM ANTI-SOC 0 0 BROWN, Joseph Mr Tilley Brown - That is not true 175 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Th e honorable member for Indi "must withdraw that remark. 175 JSM ANTI-SOC 0 0 BROWN, Joseph Mr Tilley Brown Certainly, Mr. Speaker. 175 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES I did the honorable member for Ballarat an injustice last night when I said he was prepared to give us only four portfolios. He was prepared to give us a majority in the Cabinet. There never was. and never can be, a way of explaining the damning fact that he was prepared to sit in a Cabinet in which we had the majority of votes. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin O n a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I informed the honorable memberlast night that his assertion that I would be a member of any coalition with the Labour Party was absolutely unfounded. 176 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Th e honorable member told me so, anyway. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I left it to the honorable member to make the coalition, to determine who should be leader, and everything else. Yet that statement is repeated todav. 176 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Th e honorable member for Ballarat is going much further than raising a point of order.. 175 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES —Th e honorable member for Ballarat has an excuse and an explanation for everything, but I will put this point in such a way that neither excuse nor explanation will help him. The honorable member offered at that time two alternatives. At the best, all he can say is that there were to be four portfolios for each party, and he was to be Prime Minister. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No , never 176 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne It is true 176 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Wil l the honorable member for Hume kindly refrain from continually interrupting ? 176 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I will, sir, at your request. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Ther e were to be four portfolios allotted to each party. This -should be most interesting to honorable members opposite. 176 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Thi s is really interesting; we were not in it. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Wher e we were, the honorable member and his party are now. I commend to all honorable members opposite these facts. There were to be four portfolios for each party. 176 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Hear, Hear! 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Eithe r the present Prime Minister was to lead, or the honorable member for Ballarat. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No , No! 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Th e honorable member was willing, as always, to step down for the good of his country. In the alternative, there were to be five portfolios for the Labour Party. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No t even in my dreams. .That was left to my colleague. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES I was approached personally by a member of the Deakin Government, and a distinct offer was made to me that, in case we pushed the matter, we should have five portfolios. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin That offer was not made by me, or to my knowledge. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Nothin g is done on the honorable member's behalf, or for which he will take the responsibility. But the facts are as I have stated, and the honorable member has only two alternatives. If he did not propose to go into the Ministry, he proposed to desert and assassinate it as he is doing now; or he was going to sit in a Cabinet in which the Labour Party had an overwhelming predominance; and which, certainly, as he must have known, would, if formed, have promoted exactly those measures which it now proposes to do. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No . The condition was as to our programme, nothing more. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Mr . Speaker, when the honorable member, says "our programme,"' whose programme does he mean ? 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Ours 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Doe s he mean the programme of the party he now leads? 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Ver y much the same. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES It is indeed the same f For his is a programme that changes to fit the bewildering circumstances of political warfare. It is the programme of those who from time to time are whirled in violent gyration around the honorable member. Hestill remains the same. Parties change- Circumstances change. He alone remains constant and unshaken. But yesterday he was here. To-day he is there. But the day before he offered to stand equal in all things with us. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No , never. 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Indeed , he offered us the superior position. Now he leads the cohorts of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, these are facts that no explanation or excuse from a man even more ingenious and more evasive than the honorable member can get over. 176 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin If they were facts ! 176 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - They are facts, too 176 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES The people of this country will know that here is a man who condemned a party to whose policy even yet he can formulate no objection on political grounds, and who resorts to that contemptible weapon the "gag" in order to consummate his nefarious purpose; a mart who, when the inscrutable Providence -which decides the puny affairs of men places 'him and his new party on this side, will in the fulness of time assassinate them, and bravely declare he did it for their own good. 177 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —On no other condition, I assure the honorable member. 177 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES There is surely some moral obliquity about a nature such as his. No act that he commits, no party that he betrays, no cause that he abandons, affects him at -au. He regards himself as the selected and favoured agent of Providence. Everything that he does he does for the very best. He does it because there is nothing else that can be done to conserve the welfare of the people and the interests of the nation. To realize this noble ideal he has assassinated Governments, abandoned friends to the wolves, deserted principles, and deceived the people. Just now he wishes to fill the empty spaces of Australia; and he gathers about him those gentlemen who are responsible for the isnonopolization of the lands of Australia. He proposes to establish a citizen defence force. He has been converted to that policy. I have to declare that he 'has done much good in his time, for I heard him convert himself on the for .of a national defence force when he spoke in London. Up to that time he had been uncertain. 177 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —I had declared myself only five years before. 177 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES The honorable member may change again, of course. He may come round to the other side once more. But he proposes to establish compulsory military training with the assistance of gentlemen who have declared it to be the most dangerous and infamous expedient to -which a British- speaking people could resort. 177 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne —Has the honorable gentleman the letter of the honorable member for Parkes, written to the Prime Minister? 177 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Ah, yes! The cohorts behind the honorable member for Ballarat declare that we on this side of the House are disloyal; that wFen we seek to establish an Australian navy we do wrong. And so, the honorable member for Ballarat has allied himself with those who have always upheld what they call the cause of loyalty to the British Empire. Amongst others he has allied himself with the honorable member for Parkes. That. honorable member of late has been profoundly moved in reference to the position of Imperial affairs. We are given to understand that he has addressed many public meetings in regard to this matter, and that everywhere he has met with the most amazing expressions of approval of his policy—whatever that may be. This is what the honorable member for Parkes says of the honorable member for Ballarat— Mr. Deakin has told the people of England, through the Colonial Conference in 1907, that the present contribution— to the Naval Subsidy- is "unpopular in Australia," that "nobody approves of it"; and in doing so, he has, I have contended, said what is politically untrue, and has libelled the Australian people in regard to their loyalty to the Empire, as well as charged them, inferentially, in the eyes of their kith and kin, and in the hearing of other nations, with national ingratitude. 177 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —I believed in payment in kind instead of in cash. 177 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES The honorable member for Parkes said this in a letter addressed- to the present Prime Minister, dated 20th May, 1909: He also said— Australia has been maligned and discredited unjustly in the eyes of the British people by Mr. Deakin; and you and your fellow-Labour representatives, who voted against a contribution of any amount in 19031 failed to voice the feelings of the Australian people, but represented only certain Labour organizations, by whose mistaken judgment the principle of opposition to a participation in the cost of Empire defence became part of the "Labour" programme. Formerly the honorable member for Ballarat assumed an attitude of unrelenting hostility towards honorable members opposite, and would never ally himself with them. Then, however, he was still hoping to be taken into the bosom of Father Abraham! 177 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne .—And he told us that he was doing the opposite all the time. 177 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Nothing of the kind 177 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES He is the political mercenary of Australia. He will lead any party—he will follow none! He is faithful to only one thing—himself. He is tine to only one power, and bends the knee to only one principle, and that is that which is at any time the most powerful. To the Age he never turns a deaf ear. Of that organization, the Orange Lodge, a manifestation of whose power in active politics we saw lately, owing to the incredible energy of our friend the honorable member for .Dalley, we see him a servile and humble adherent. He has done all these things; le has abandoned his party, and he h pplied the gag to those who were his friends and allies, and prevented them from explaining their policy, a policy which he declared—was it lye or six or ten days ago—to be a good one for Australia and a policy which even now he is unable to attack successfully. He sits there now and declares that he is content to leave everything th the cool judgment of the people. He means the refrigerated, the hypnotised jpdgment of the people. Let him get to the people, whilst the facts and the memory of his latest acts are fresh in their minds. When he says, "We will sweep the country," the statement is perfectly true. The honorable gentleman will sweep the country, but we shall be the men who hold the broom and he will be the broom with which we shall sweep it. 178 11.23 JX9 Kalgoorlie ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER I wish to offer my congratulations to the honorable and learned ..member for Ballarat upon at last assuming what I believe to be his rightful position in this House. I have believed for some considerable time that he should be associated politically with those in whose company we now find him, the individuals whom he described as the wreckage of the black labour party of Australia. I wish also to congratulate the Opposition upon electing the honorable and learned gentleman to his present position, because they are well advised, who, when dealing with persons accustomed to use the stiletto, make those persons walk in front instead of behind them. The right honorable member for East Sydney will appreciate that statement. I am not surprised that under existing circumstances the right honorable gentleman, who was accustomed to sit on the front Opposition bench, is content nowto have the honorable and learned member for Ballarat in front of him. It is fitting that the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, the prospective. Prime Minister, should make his first statement to the House in the form of an apology. He has apologized to those with whom he was associated in the troublous times of the past, and he has apologized to the House for the course followed with his sanction, if not on h1s motion yesterday. He rightly felt the denunciation of the four members of the Liberal Party who spoke, and it is fitting that he should make an exulanation and an apology this morning, but I am afraid that he did not strictly adhere to the facts n what he said. He said that honorable members . opposite were adopting towards the Labour GQvernnlent the attitude adoptecr by rrieinbers of the Labour Party when his. own Administration was about to Le driven from office. . Quoting from Hansard for 27th November, page 2389, I find that he: said— Finally I did move, a motion which could not: be objectd to, and on that third opportunity-arising for all honorable members to speak, the only honorable member who did so was the honorable member for Wide Bay. That was the attitude adopted when the honorable and learned member was about to, relinquish office. Every honorable member was given an opportunity to explain his position. When those with whom the honorable member was associated for a number of years expressed a desire, yesterday, to put their position before the country, it was most objectionable that he should endeavour to gag them. As members of the Labour Party we cannot have any possiblecomplaint. 178 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson Then, why do not honorable members go out gracefully. 178 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER I ask the honorable member for Wimmera to say who was responsible for initiating the debate to-day. So far as I know the members of the Labour Party had not the slightest intention to say a word this morning. I had made a few notes of the speech which I had intended to deliver yesterday. The honorable and learned member for Ballarat is the person who initiated the present discussion. Does the honorable member for Wimmera believe that the Labour Government have shown any unreasonable hesitation in leaving office? Will he say that if after the motion carried against them yesterday, they had asked for an adjournment until next Wednesday, such a request would have been unreasonable? 178 JSM ANTI-SOC 0 0 BROWN, Joseph Mr Tilley Brown To enable the Minister of Defence to slip away, the honorable member means. 178 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER —The honorable member for mdi is unable to appreciate the conduct of a party that is straight and above' board. He interprets everything they do. in the light of the actions of people who are as warped in their views as himself. We are justified in asking what is to be the programme of the Government that will succeed the present Government. The honorable .and learned member for Ballarat hasmade no statement • as to what the policy of his Government is going to be. He certainly said at the Melbourne Town Hall' the other night that it was intended to haye effective protection as a plank of the platform of the Liberal Party, but only in last night's Herald we saw that the right honorable member for East Sydney emphatically repudiated any agreement to go beyond the terms of a fiscal truce. Where is the honorable and learned member for Ballarat to get effective protection? 179 JSM ANTI-SOC 0 0 BROWN, Joseph Mr Tilley Brown We have it 179 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne We have not 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER Those who, with the honorable member for mdi, believe that the present Tariff is sufficiently protective can have no cause for complaint. But did the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, when the Tariff was passed, admit that it was sufficiently protective? We know that he considered that it had been amended out of all recognition by the Corner Party, and by the wreckage of the black labour parts' of Australia. He contended that the Tariff, as passed by this House, was not satisfactory. 179 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest What did he really say? He did not say what the honorable member says he did at all. 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER It is sufficient for me to have to listen to the honorable and learned member's speeches, without having to read them again. 179 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest To misrepresent them 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER I do not misrepresent the honorable and learned member. And if I am correct in stating his view of the Tariff as it is passed this House I again ask where he expects to get effective protection from. Are we to rely for it upon the hon- .orable gentleman who, as Postmaster-General, was so accurately described by the Tight honorable member for East Sydney as the most stupendous joke pf the century? 179 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Is this the Freeman and Wallace party coming up again? Is the honorable member of Maribyrnong never -to be forgiven for protecting the public against Freeman and Wallace? 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER The honorable gentleman can mention the names of Freeman and Wallace as often as he pleases, in an -endeavour to associate me with that particular firm. I make him a present of his suggestion. 179 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin That is the reason for the honorable member's hostility to the honorable member for Maribyrnong. That is the reason for the hostility displayed towards him. 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER The honorable and learned gentleman is making a statement which he must know is absolutely incorrect. 179 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin It is absolutely true 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER My hostility to the Government of the honorable member for Ballarat was due to the fact that I have never believed in him. I have always believed that he is what is described in the outside world as a political flzgig; one of those persons who will sell their friends, and those most closely associated with them, in order to aggrandize themselves and secure their own position. It does appear to me that the honorable member for Maribyrnong could not have. been more accurately described than he was by the right honorable member for East Sydney, when the latter declared that in his capacity as Postmaster-General he was "the most stupendous joke of the century." But to return to the taunt which has been hurled against me regarding the action which I took in this House and nowhere else respecting the postal prohibition imposed upon the correspondence of Messrs. Freeman and Wallace, I merely wish to say that all I ever claimed was that the firm in question should have their case submitted for determination to an impartial tribunal. 179 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger A great deal more was done. 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER I challenge the honorable member to say that I did anything beyond that in or out of the House. 179 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger The honorable member was associated with those who did. 179 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER The only association I had with any one else was when the honorable member for Riverina declared his intention to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the prohibition imposed upon the letters of Messrs. Freeman and Wallace, I certainly said that I would support him. I hold that the meanest criminal in the community is entitled to be tried and convicted before he is punished. The right honorable member for East Sydney made a similar statement. Is he also to be charged' with being interested in this particular firm? When the prospective Prime Minister resorts to such questionable and despicable methods of obtaining satisfaction against those whom he knows were particularly interested in securing his removal from office, and against those who will ultimately pursue him, I think that he is adopting, a very miserable attitude. 180 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I will pursue him all my life.ot 180 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER I think that the honorable member for Hume will admit that on a former occasion I did as much as did any member of this House to secure the removal of the honorable member for Ballarat from office, and I know that there was a certain amount of jubilation amongst his followers when they found that my name was not included in the Labour Cabinet. I think that the future Prime Minister and his supporters have adopted a line of conduct which can only result in their own political annihilation. Those honorable members who have now secured a fiscal truce from the howling protectionists, who desired to pile on additional duties, can afford to say, "We are dealing with an individual who is unreliable, and who is likely in a spasmodic outburst to do injury to our cause, and therefore it is fitting that he should walk in front of the column." In leaving the case of Messrs. Freeman and Wallace I wish to add that the attitude which I adopted in reference to that firm is one which I shall uniformly observe in the case of any individual or firm who is judged on ex perle evidence. No individual will ever vainly appeal to me to assist him to have his case decided upon its merits, and in the light of day. In connexion with the present situation it is interesting to note that no policy has yet been submitted by the prospective coalition Government. Its members have merely repudiated the statements of one another. At present, therefore, we are limited to a discussion of their past achievements. I am satisfied that if this House did the right thing, instead of adjourning till Tuesday next, it would adjourn till next July in order that in the interim the electors might be afforded an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon those who have so grossly betrayed their trust. 180 11.39 KQP Kennedy 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD I fail to recognise any need for the use of the strong language which has . been indulged in this morning. I congratulate the prospective Prime Minister upon his present political associations. When I said this morning that I felt deeply sorry for him last evening when he was so uneasy and pale under the trenchant criticism of the Attorney-General, I can assure him that I meant it. I always feel sorry when a man so far forgets himself as to fall from a high position to the lowest depths of political degradation. The honorable member for Ballarat showed us how comfortable he was last evening by losing his temper the moment the proceedings of the House opened to-day. I see the late leader of the Opposition sitting on the Treasury bench for the moment. I wish to congratulate him, and at the same time to give him a little advice, if' he will take it from me. Whether he takes it or not is neither here nor there, but I am going to offer it. There is no need for him to go and ask the prospective Prime Minister to do this, that, or the other by way of carrying out his policy.. I can let him into the secret history of our party in this House. We never asked the prospective Prime Minister to do anything for us, as he will admit. We never went to him and tried to coerce him into doing anything, and he will indorse that remark. ' On former occasions he has always agreed with me that we never unduly pressed him by going to him and asking him to do this, that, or the other in connexion with the carrying out of a certain policy. Whether the honorable member for Parramatta wants some free-trad project to be carried through, or whether he wants anything else in his political platform to be carried out, he has nb need to press the honorable member for Ballarat. He has only to get the honorable member for Illawarra, or one or two other honorable members on his side, to go to a public meeting and say, "This is what we want." And the honorable member for Ballarat is so putty-like that he will immediately mould his opinions to the desires of his. party. I give that information gratis to the honorable member for Parramatta, who, I am sure, will appreciate the spirit in which it is given, and use it to the fullest possible extent. In this House we have never carried a reform or any measure which was branded with the ideals and thoughts of the Labour Party by asking the honorable member for Ballarat to act. We simply published our proposals to the' world, and, although on one day the honorable member was opposed to them, on the next day he was prepared to come into the House and carry them out. Was that done for the sake of holding office? What was it done for? The honorable member had one idea in his political cared, and that was to keep certain honorable memhers off the Treasury bench. He is now associated with them, and I offer him my hearty congratulations. I remember the time when he stood on the floor here and indignantly denied the statement of the honorable member for East Sydney, who had accused him of betraying his Government in connexion with the Ballarat speech. The honorable gentleman said that he did not mean his speech to be taken in that way, and that he had no intention of going to Ballarat to give the honorable member for East Sydney notice to quit. Does not the book David Syrne, which has just been published, say that David Syme, of the Age, practically sent the honorable member to Ballarat to give the honorable member for East Sydney notice to quit? 181 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —That is absolutely an error. 181 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD Is it not a fact that, although the honorable gentleman had been speaking, on the Thursday in friendly terms to the honorable member for East Sydney, on that very day the Age had sent to the London Times a cablegram to the effect that Mr. Deakin was going to Ballarat to deliver an address to give Mr. Reid notice to quit? 181 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins No, to the Daily Chronicle. 181 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD I thank the honorable member for the correction. The cablegram must have left here on Thursday or Friday at the very latest. Under those circumstances, what can we expect? We cannot expect anything else from the honorable member for Ballarat. 1 congratulate my honorable friends opposite. I can imagine the honorable member for Maribyrnong sitting in the, !Ministerial room before the fire with the honorable member for East Sydney, and the latter telling him that he was the most stupendous joke of the century. I can also imagine the honorable member for Corio, whom I do not see in his place just now, telling the honorable member for East Sydney how he juggled with the finances of New South Wales, and I fancy that I can hear the honorable member for East Sydney telling him that he was a freak of nature—the rest of the remark I leave out. I can also imagine the honorable member for Franklin saying before the last election that he would thank God if the Labour candidate would only beat Mr. Deakin. I can imagine him sitting subsequently alongside the honorable member for Ballarat and saying that he would never be associated with any Government which included him. I can also imagine the honorable member for Swan mounting a table in one of the rooms and delivering an address on dirt-eating. He seems to have swallowed so much of that commodity that. one could almost take him to be a rubbish heap. Still, I suppose that he could give a very interesting lecture in that particular line. I can imagine the honorable member for Richmond telling the honorable member for Parramatta how he removed several skins from his body, and how the latter shed his skins like a snake in the spring time. I can imagine the honorable member for Wentworth telling the honorable member for Ballarat that he put a stiletto in the back of the Reid Government. No doubt it would be ver' interesting to listen to all these little exchanges. From the bottom of my heart, I sincerely congratulate honorable members on the other side, with the exception of one or two who, I know, are not very comfortable over there. I remember the time when the honorable member for Fawkner sat in the Opposition corner, and was accused of telling the Employers' Federation that there was going to be, a class fight. When he was accused by the honorable member for Barrier of having made the statement, he tried to wriggle out of it. I am pleased that there is to be a class fight. I am thoroughly convinced that if the workers of Australia hope to get reforms which will be lasting and beneficial to them, they can only achieve their ends by a class struggle. I hope that a class struggle will be made, and that it will be as bitter as it is possible to make it. I make that remark after years of serious• consideration. I have observed the conduct of those who from time to time have pretended to be their friends, but who, whenever vested interests were attacked in any shape, immediately came together to down a proposed reform. The honorable member for Darling Downs got the honorable member for Ballarat to go to Queensland recently to deliver certain addresses in the interests of their party. In Brisbane the honorable member for Ballarat advocated a land tax, but when he got' to Darling Downs, where he was pledged to deliver a similar speech, he had to back down on the land tax at the in stigation of the representative of the constituency in this House. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin The honorable member is absolutely incorrect. 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD I have reports of the honorable member's speeches on both occasions, together with the criticism of the Brisbane daily newspapers. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin HaS the honorable member copies of both the Brisbane newspapers? One of them reported me. as opposed to the land tax, while the other said that I supported it. 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD In one place the honorable member supported the land tax. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin A State land tax 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD No 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Yes 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD In another place the honorable member opposed a land tax. He was in favour only of a State land tax, when he got to the Darling Downs. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin It was a State land tax that I advocated when in Brisbane. 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD The honorable member wriggled and quibble in reference to the matter all the time. He has already promised members on this side that, at the next election, he will declare in favour of land taxation. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin That is not so 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD The honorable member has told certain honorable members on this side that, although he will not advocate a land tax during the life of this Parliament, he will be prepared to do so at the next elections. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin A State land tax 182 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins That was to be part of the policy of the proposed coalition. 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD Yes, and the honorable niember was prepared to join the party on those terms.. He may shake his head, and say "No," but I hope that he will not add another qualification to those of which he has already availed himself. He \yas prepared to join this party, and agreed to the imposition of a land tax as part of the policy for the next election. 182 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Never 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD Now, the honorable member is trying to defeat the policy which he a,reed should be laid before the electors in a few months' time. Under these circumstances he will require a good deal of watching. However, I offer my hearts' congratulations to honorable members opposite. I am sure that they are extremely happy. The honorable member this morning showed how happy he was last iight by the excited manner in which he interjected during the speech of the Attorney-General. No men in the chamber look more happy than do the right honorable member for Swan and the honorable member for Ma.ribyrnong, to say nothing of the honorable member for Darling Downs, who knows that his doom is sealed. 182 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom He does not know that 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD The honorable member realizes that he made a political mistake when he invited the honorable member for Ballarat to come to Queensland, and he there advocated a land tax. He now wishes that he had not asked him. 182 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom The honorable member is making a mistake. 182 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD The honorable member is more gifted with speech than I ever hope to be, and will have an ample opportunity to explain his position. I congratulate the late leader of the Opposition, the honorable member for Parramatta. Before he does anything rash, I advise him to look over the strong men with whom he has to deal—the strong intellectual and political entities in the party in the persons of the honorable members for Maribyrnong, Darling Downs, and Batman. I have shown him how he can squeeze and mould the prospective Prime Minister into any shape he desires. When he has done so, the others whom I have named will humbly follow. I hope that honorable members opposite will be a happy family, and that the time will never come when they will separate. I again offer them my hearty congratulations, though I except a, few whom I shall not mention, whom I know not to be very comfortable in their present positions. 182 11.54 KEA Wentworth FT 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I rise to make, not a speech, but a personal explanation. Last night, when speaking of the honorable member for Cook, I said— This honorable member, who talks of political principles, offered to support Sir Hector Carruthers. He interjected, " That is untrue." His words were withdrawn, but the honorable member on several occasions repeated the assertion that my remarks were entirely in-' accurate. I have consequently since spent some time in trying to get at the facts. 182 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page —What has this to do with the new Government? 182 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I hope that my honorable friend Mill let me avail myself of this opportunity to do full justice to the honorable member for Cook, and .to myself, because my statement was deliberately contradicted. 183 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page Has the honorable member the original letter? 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I have a copy of the original letter. The honorable member for Cook is well able to look after himself, without the assistance of the honorable member for Maranoa. On the 22nd April, 1903, the honorable member for Cook wrote from Forbes a letter addressed to Mr. J. H. Carruthers, in which he said— I am desirous of assisting in any way I can the liberal element in politics. Mr. Carruthers thereupon asked him if he could take k hand in organization work at Forbes, to which the honorable member replied on the 29th April, 1903— I have read the manifesto of your party in the press. Re organizing, I will do all I can in any part of the district; but would rather not publicly initiate. . . The main thing is to organize before the Labour Party. In a letter written by him a day later to the Secretary of the Liberal Reform League he said— Re forming a local branch. I have written Mr. Carruthers, in answer to a query similar to yours. As far as Forbes itself is concerned, I would rather not be the visible mover in initiating, for my own sake politically, although when once the association is started, I would throw myself into it unreservedly. 183 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts Was this before he was elected? 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY Yes 176 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook —Nearlv half the members of the Labour Party have, at some time or other, opposed the Labour organization. 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY Nov that I have refreshed the memory of the honorable member for Cook, I do not think that he will deny that he wrote that letter to the Secretary of the Liberal and Reform League of New South Wales. 183 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts A great deal of what has been written is newspaper concoction. Passages have been cut out and others inserted. The honorable member is quoting from the newspaper statements. 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I. am quoting from copies of the letters themselves. 183 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Thomas Brown —They have been mutilated. 131 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook —They have not been mutilated. 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The copies from which I have quoted have been published in a newspaper, but can the honorable member say that, substantially, what I have read as coming from him is not true, and merely a newspaper concoction? That is a straight question which he obviously cannot answer. 183 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts Ask the men in the tin mines. 183 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The honorable member might also ask some of the "scabs" who cart pianos in times of strike! I hoped, when I rose to do justice to the honorable member, that he would show a desire to treat me similarly, but, as he does not, I shall have to refer to some remarks which he made on the subject some time ago. He did not then deny having done that with which he is now charged, but his attitude was that the letters which he wrote were written in confidence, and it was scandalous to publish them! He has accused me of having made a mutilated statement, but I have proved my words to him by reading portions of his own letter, and referring to his own words as reported in Hansard on the ioth October, 1907, when the honorable member acknowledged that he had written to the association and the Liberal politician referred to. However, I have said enough to prove that it was not worthy of this Chamber for the honorable member to contradict me in the way he did last night. 183 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts —I do not desire to say very much. 130 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Does the honorable mem desire to make an explanation? 183 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts Yes 130 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER A personal explanatjon may never be debated. If the honorable member desires to make any explanation as to the statement of the honorable member for Wentworth. or to withdraw anything, he is at liberty to do so, but he cannot debate a personal explanation. 183 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts I desire to say that at the time this incident occurred, certain members of the New South Wales Labour Party were speaking in reference to the Boer War. I very strongly held views opposite to those expressed, and certainly did write some letters in reference to speeches made by them in the district in which I live. Those letters have been manipulated by the press of New South Wales altogether out of their meaning. Pieces have been cut out and pieces put in with the effect that the context has been altogether destroyed ; qualifications which would convey a totally different meaning have been altogether omitted. 184 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I believe I shall be able to produce the originals next week 184 12.2 KXK Gwydir ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I can scarcely let an opportunity such as this pass without saying a word or two. Honorable members of the Opposition must realize to the full that they have not dealt in a manly and straightforward spirit with the Government. In the whole history of politics, from what I have observed and from what I have read, I have never known an Opposition, immediately on the completion of the Prime Minister's remarks, to move the closure so as to prevent honorable members who support the Government from at once expressing their opinion on the momentous questions before the country. However, no one is more proud than myself to-day to find all the Conservative elements on one side of the Chamber. It should indeed be the happiest day for every true member of the Democratic Party, who has been fighting for years consistently for the masses of the people, to find at last the enemy all in one camp. We have at last adopted n. truly Australian method of identification. Throughout this country it has ever been the practice to adopt the branding method so that the respective owners of cattle may be readily ascertained ; and for many years we have been trying to brand the Conservative elements in Australian politics. Owing, however, to the fact that the honorable gentlemen opposite, and those whom they represent,. have hitherto had sufficient numbers to enable them to divide the spoils, vve have not been able to brand them as they are now branded—that is, as the enemies of the people of this great Commonwealth. I compliment them on having come together ; nnd I think that the leader of the Opposition is in his proper place. I admit, with some diffidence, that he was in a very peculiar position before he took this step. He and his party had had the support of the Labour Party for seven or eight years ; practically they had the support of. the party so long as they were prepared to carry into effect measures which we felt to be in the interests of the people of the country. And we must not forget that the honorable gentlemen opposite also admitted such measures to be in the interests of the people, and declared that they. were only carrying out principles embodied in their platform from time to time. -What is the difference between the platform of honorable gentlemen opposite and the platform of the Labour Party? Let any man read the two platforms—the Governor- General's speech, and the platform indicated by the leader of the Opposition, and he would find very little difference indeed between the two. The only difference is that we go one step further, and make our platform a complete reform, whereas they stop at the ritical point where inefficiency enters and stagnation commences. We of the Labour Party say to them, " We want you to go to the kernel of the trouble, and adopt a land tax in the interests of the settlement and the defence of Australia." But those men, although they have professed to be democrats all these 'ears, are not prepared to adopt that reform which alone can safeguard the future of Australia and make the people happier than they are at present. They hesitate to take the step; and why? Because honorable members in the Opposition corner —the landlords and men at the head of the Employers' Union, who represent everything that is antagonistic to the uplifting of the masses—are in the controlling position today. The power lies, not with those who have gone over with the honorable member for Ballarat, or with the men associated with the honorable member for Parramatta— but, as will be found in practical politics, with the Conservative Party in the corner, who hold the helm of State, or will do so in the course of a few days. Why are they given the helm? Simply because the other men of the combination cannot obtain the power without their aid. Those not of the Corner Party are prepared to turn topsy-turvy, or from right to ]eft, and forsake their former allies for the sake of the emoluments of office—for the sake of maintaining for a few years at the very most their position in Australian politics. In referring to the honorable members in the Corner, I do not mean the knight of the nosebag, the right honorable member for Swan. 184 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER The honorable member must not use such an expression. 184 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Well, I shall say the gentleman who, at any rate, has not had his nose long out of the bag. 184 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER That is an. improper remark to make. 184 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Shall I say, then, the honorable member who is never satisfied unless he is in a position from which he can be largely advantaged through the Treasury of the Commonwealth? Will that do? 185 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest —No; it is a mean, contemptible remark f 185 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The religion of the honorable member for Swan and, the religion of the honorable member for Ballarat is apparently summed up in the one commandment, "Man, mind thyself." They have availed themselves of every opportunity to intrigue for office. The honorable member for Ballarat claims that his present attitude is due to the fact that he and his party were threatened with political suicide if they continued to support the Labour Party. 1 admit that the labour organizations outside have determined that the time has arrived when they should place a brand on those who profess to be " as good as a labour man." We are tired of those who merely indulge in platitudes about labour, and have no real sympathy with our parts', and our party outside have determined that such men should pay the penalty of their insincerity. The honorable member for Ballarat and his party have had the support of labour for eight year, and as the result of that support have been enabled to enjoy the emoluments of office. It is true that they have given us somewhat grudgingly some of the planks of our platform. But now that we put before Parliament a programme that is practically an advance on anything that they have submitted, they not only forsake us, but ally themselves with the enemy. They are not prepared to give the Government an opportunity to prove what they are prepared to do. I recognised that sooner or later, before the next election, the honorable mem- 'her for Ballarat must withdraw his support from the Labour Party. It was only natural that he should not be prepared to lay his head on the block, and to calmly await the fall of the executioner's knife at the behest of the Labour Party. It would be unreasonable to expect any man to submit quietly to annihilation. But it seems, to me that the honorable member would have acted far more honorably than he has done had he refrained from taking action until our programme had been presented to the Parliament, and he had pointed out any parts of it which, in his opinion, was antagbnistic to the welfare of the people. Had he shown some reasonable ground for, his action, no one could have demurred. 185 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook The Government programme is embodied in the Gympie speech. 185 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Then I can only say that it is exceptional to find a Prime Minister with the courage to tell the people in advance what will be embodied' in the Governor-General's Speech at the opening of Parliament. 185 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook What I mean is that the Prime Minister has explained his policy at least thirty times. 185 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER But it was not the Gympie speech that led the honorable member for Ballarat to take up his, present position. Long Wore that speeh was delivered he had been conniving at a fusion of parties. He has taken over a programme accepted by certain organizations in the Commonwealth, and for a large part of which the honorable member for Dalley is responsible. That honorable member some time ago stepped from the ranks of the free-traders. He told his constituents that he was going to leave that party so far as its policy was concerned. Since then he has been ostracised by it, and has been induced to draw up a policy more in keeping with the position that he holds: We find now that the honorable member for Ballarat and his party have practically adopted a platform that has been submitted to other organizations. The honorable member for Da.11ey has taken up an attitude far more worthy of commendation than is that of the other representatives of New South Wales in the Opposition. Those honorable members, some of whom will be members of the coalition Ministry, came into the House as avowed free-tradrs; they declared free-trade to be a panacea for all the ills of the Commonwealth, and yet to-day they are going back on their promises to the electors. They have practically betrayed their pledges to those who sent them here. The honorable member for Dailey said that he recognised that a change in the fiscal policy, hedged about with proper safeguards, was necessary. But the other representatives of New South Wales in the Opposition declared for free-trade, and now give no sign of shame, although they must know that they have betrayed the people who sent them here. My sympathy goes out to their constituents— to the people to whom they gave the promise that they would carry the banner of free-trade to victory. If there is one attribute more. than another that the representatives of the people should possess, it is that of consistency, and of loyalty to the programme that they advocate on the hustings. But the free-trade members of the- Opposition have taken up what may be described as a brazen-faced position. In entering into the compact with the Deakinites they implored the latter to leave some crevice or loophole in the agreement through which they might crawl when they had to meet their constituents. And what is the loophole ? It is that they shall have a free hand with regard to the fiscal question. Is their attitude worthy of men who claim to be fighting for a principle that is dear to them? Is it right that they should be content to do nothing to remove an evil of which they complain, and to say: It As long as you do not alter what has been done—as long as you do not eliminate from the statute - book the measure of protection which has been granted—we will work with you; hut when anomalies are to be considered you will give us a free hand." A free hand in those circumstances is simply a phrase for throwing dust into the eyes of the people. The freedom that they have secured is freedom to vote against the Governmetit with which they are about to ally themselves, or to try ineffectively, as they profess to be able to do, to prevent the onward march of the protective policy. The name of freedom is a glorious one, and the honorable member for Ballarat uses it more than does any other man in this chamber or outside of it. It is the text from which he preaches from every platform. He says that the cause of freedom and liberty is taking him and his followers out of the ranks of the men with whom they have been allied so long, but what kind of freedom do they mete out to their friends in this House? The very first sign of their love of freedom was given yesterday, when their first act, after obtaining the power to do it, was to curtail freedom, to cripple liberty of speech, and to strangle the rights of honorable members by moving the gag. Those are the men who cry out for liberty and freedom, and their action yesterday is a sample of the treatment which they will mete out to the people's representatives. in this chamber. I welcome any such method as they now adopt, for it always recoils upon those who use such unfair means to suppress and subordinate their opponents. I shall welcome the application of the gag time after time, provided that it is put on, as it must be put on, when the people's watchdogs are trying to defend the liberties of the people that sent them here. The honorable member for Parramatta can afford to sit on that bench and smile thesmile that is. customary with him when things are going his way. 185 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook I am smiling at the. intrigues in which the Labour Party have been engaged before to-day. I am reading some of them, and they make me smile. 186 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER If there has been any intrigue ever perpetrated by any man or party that can produce a smile on the face of the champion intriguer of this country, with the exception of the honorable member for Ballarat, he is welcome to smile. 186 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks Will not the honorable member give him first place? 186 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I do not think we shall ever be able to discover another man who has done or is capable of doing what the honorable member for Ballarat has done since I have been in the chamber. When I was returned to this House, someyears ago, I felt that in the National Parliament I should find some evidence of strong men working with a strong purposefor a determined end. I find that they are strong in evil, strong to do wrong, strong to forfeit their principles, strong to. denounce that which they formerly recommended, strong to sacrifice the people who sent them here, strong to abandon every. thing that tends to make a man an honorable man in this chamber. That is where their strength lies, as indicated by what we see on the opposite side to-day. I sympathize more with the electors than with any member on that side. I welcome the fusion that has taken place. I realize that it is but the beginning of the end, and that we havegot the enemy into one camp at last. It is only a matter now of lighting on, on the lines that Nye have laid down for nearly twenty years, and upon which we have travelled religiously, without deviating to the right or the left. It is only a questionnow of moving onward towards the goal of our ambition, because that party of fragments, whose different sections have no sympathy with one another, and which consists merely of a number of men who are seeking to escape from the condemnation of the people, cannot live before the united fire that will be directed upon them by the true representatives of the people in this chamber. Many of them have cried for dissolutions. I have heard the honorable member for Parramatta, the right honorable member for East Sydney, and others, saying—" Let us give the people a chance to say what we should do." May I ask them to-day if they are prepared to go to the people? If they are, I can assure them that we are quite prepared to meet them on the hustings within the next week or two. I know that those men, whose guilty consciences must haunt them in their quiet and reflective moments, dare not, with their consciousness of wrong-doing, go before the electors within the next twelve months, at any rate. 187 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Everybody knows that the honorable member and his party are anxious to go before the people. 187 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Most people will give me credit for not usually talking with my ." tongue in my cheek," as some members opposite do.' I do not usually say what I am afraid to follow up. I assure the honorable member for P'arramatta that I am quite ready, at any time, to go to the people who sent me here, and ask them whether they indorse my action, and the action of the party to which I belong, in putting forward our programme, and administering the affairs of the country as they have been administered during the short time that we ha.ve been allowed to hold office. 187 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook I say frankly that I am not quite ready yet, so I' am not as brave as the honorable member is. 187 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I know that the honorable member has a pocket borough. He was anxious to cut off from his electorate the workers who sent him into the first Parliament. He was discerning enough to see the future so clearly that he cut himself away from the very men who put him into national politics, and made him what he is, the moment the redistribution of seats enabled him to do so. It is not to-day that he runs for the first time into the 11tonservative Camp. Tnis is not the first indication of his desire to join the enemies of the democracy. He did it when the redistribution of seats took place, forsaking the men who gave him political birth, and running into the arms of the Conservative electors of Parramatta, not for then, but for this time that he saw coming, when he would join the men whom he had condemned, at a time when he was in his proper senses, and belonged to the party that he now despises. 187 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook —The man who took ray old place came here with a majority of about 4,000 votes. 187 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER That is so, but that was because he stood as a free-trader. How is he going to stand next time? The honorable member for Pa.rramatta knows that the piesent honorable member for Nepean was elected because he was an out-and-out free-trader. 187 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook It was because the workers of the electorate are sensible men. 187 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member knows that the strong factor within the boundaries of the Nepean seat was the fiscal question. How is the honorable member for Nepean, who professes to speak the truth, and to try to teach others to-speak it, going back to the men who put him here? The honorable member is now practically tied to the protectionist element in politics. How is he going to face the people whom he represents? 187 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook I really cannot stand this any longer; I shall have to go. 187 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member for Parramatta is so case-hardened that he can stand anything. He has been in the crucible, preparing for the present situation, ever since he left the Labour Party. His has been no sudden change. It has been a slow, but continuous, change, and he is so thick in the hide to-day that he cannot be penetrated even by the sharpest of weapons. No doubt the honorable member will enjoy the emoluments of office. But while he enjoys them the bitterness will enter into his 'soul. The ghosts of his former principles will haunt him night by night. In spite of, all he may think, emoluments will not remove those spectres from' his bedside. Coming to the Corner party, it is obvious that whether they secure seats in the incoming Ministry or not does not matter. They really hold the fort. They are the men who can make or mar the new combination. Those eleven members in the Corner represent monopoly. They are the arch anti-democrats. . They are the men who are going to control this new combination. They will hold the balance of power in the triangular duel that will be going on day by day in the parti' that has been brought together by methods the most obnoxious ever resorted to in Australian politics. People talk of the three Party system in this Hquse. It has been condemned by politicians. But what do people think of the three parties now bound together in one party, the blessed trinity of monopolists, Conservatives, and arch traitors to the principles which they have espoused? We have had three parties proposing different policies and fighting on different lines until a few weeks ago; and does any one mean to tell me that these three parties are going to assimilate and work in unison for the welfare of the people? Their sole object is to defeat the Labour Party. The right honorable member for Swan may make the best of his present opportunity, for, as surely as he is sitting in this chamber to-day, so soon as the people of Australia awaken to the perfidy that is taking place, so soon will the doom of the members of the new combination be sealed. So soon also will the people of Australia acclaim the programme of the one party in politics that is not ashamed to put before the country fearlessly, honestly, and continuously, a policy that is designed in the interests of Australia. Is it any disgrace to leave these benches by the methods adopted by the party opposite? In my opinion it is not a disgrace, but is one of the best things that could possibly happen to our party. We shall now know who are for us and who are against us. 188 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson Why does not the honorable member take it coolly? 188 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER When I look at the honorable member who interrupts me, and contemplate his cold-blooded character, I am not surprised that he can take anything coolly. :But I have principles which I hold dear, and I feel for the cause which I espouse. The honorable member for Womera has been sent here to represent a constituency consisting largely of men on the land. In his district, however, there are many large estates; and there are in it many farmers whose Sons are seeking to follow the ,occupations of their sires, but who can; not get land upon which to settle. He asks me to keep cool, when I take stock of this state of things. I am convinced that when the day comes for honorable members opposite to appear before the electors they will not be able to keep so cool as they advise me to do. If we could go before the people in two months' time, I am convinced that the result would be to make a precedent in history, so that no party elected to this Chamber in the future would, for a moment, dare to do what the party opposite has done. The flag of labour is being hoisted higher and higher on the mast of popular approbation. The day of retribution for those who have done this wrong to the cause of labour is at hand. Many of them will have a difficulty in facing their electors, having regard to the pledges given in days gone by. We shall soon have an opportunity of demonstrating to the people of this country what political policy is best calculated to promote their interests. I do not altogether agree with the remarks of the Prime Minister, in which the honorable gentleman appeared to me to be urging as a favour from the new combination that Senator Pearce should be sent to England. 188 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer Th e Prime Minister did not make it a favour. 188 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Ma y I say that I complained when the leader of the Opposition was speaking that the reason for the urgent motion should be to prevent Senator Pearce from going to England. 188 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER It appears to me preposterous to expect the party coming into power under conditions now known to every one to recognise the wisdom of send-. irig the present Minister of Defence to the Conference to be held in London. I believe that from a party political stand-point they might fairly decide that it would not be a proper course for them to indorse. But. apart from that, in view of the fact that there will be so many sore heads when the selections for the new Cabinet are made, and so many members of the party who will not be satisfied, it is hopeless toexpect that the new Government will be in a position to consider the claims of any person outside their own following, no matter how beneficial to the country the appointment of such a person to such a position might be. Speaking of the land tax, the honorable and learned member for Ballarat to-day, in answer to the honorable member for Kennedy, stated that he did not advocate in Brisbane that the States should tax the land, and refuse to advocate it in Toowoomba. In justice to the honorable- and learned member, I might say that I was present at his Brisbane meeting, and distinctly heard him say that he did not favour a Federal land tax. He said that the States should imposeland taxation, but in the event of the States Parliaments failing to do so, hewould then consider whether it would not be necessary for the Federal Parliament to impose such taxation. 188 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison Th e honorable and' learned member, knows well that the States will never impose a progressive land tax. 188 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I am satisfied of that, but I wish to be fair. At Brisbanethe honorable and learned member for Ballarat posed as one who had been a land taxer for a quarter of-a century. He said that one of his pet ideals in Victorian politics was .a land tax, and that he had advocated it for years in Victoria. I do not deny that for a moment, but if_ the land tax at present in force in Victoria is the only result of many years of advocacy by the honorable and learned member tor Ballarat, then God help the people who would have to depend upon any land tax which might emanate from him as a Federal Prime Minister. There is no State in the Commonwealth in which the land tax imposed is such an apology and makebelieve as it is in Victoria. Throughout his career the honorable and learned gentleman has been propounding great ideas. He is an idealist before everything, but I defy honorable members to point to one instance in which he has adhered to an ideal, and given it effect in the statute-book of the country. He has been in politics in this country for over a quarter of a century, and during the whole of that time I think he has not been out of office for more than twelve months. If that does not indicate a hankering after the emoluments of office, I do not know what does. I say here, and now, that a progressive land tax is a proposal in connexion with which the honorable member and the party with which he is now associated can never secure the confidence of our people. The honorable gentleman can never hope, with the conservative element in the party which he now leads, to be able to give effect to a land tax which will be of any benefit to the people of Australia. In that lies our security. Honorable members opposite will never agree to an effective progressive land tax, and it is therefore only a matter of time when the people realizing that what the honorable member for Ballarat talks about he does not do will take action to displace him. He says that we cannot hope to defend this continent unless we people it. We cannot expect to hold it, or that Japan, with her teeming millions, will remain quiet very long, unless we take steps to populate the vast empty spaces of Australia. But what is the honorable gentleman's policy for the population of those empty spaces, and for the settlement of people on the best lands of the country, which are now occupied by only a few sheep? It is only a make-believe, in keeping with his professions throughout his career. The honorable gentleman knows, in his heart, that there is only one means of populating this country, and protecting it. He knows that unless we adopt that means speedily, we shall endanger the safety of this continent and this section of the Empire. He knows also that if he had continued his support of the Labour Party, a progressive land tax might have been imposed which would have done all that is desired. If he had done that, he would have proved that he was not a mere talker of platitudes, and preacher of politics, but a man prepared to do effective work in the political arena. The honorable gentleman has been eloquent in referring to the safety of the Empire. His perorations have charmed audiences of thousands during the last few months. He plays on this string from month to month and year to year, and then he attaches himself to a party that cannot give him the only reform by which this country can be populated and saved. If his action is not hypocritical, it is certainly detrimental to the welfare of this country, and the honorable gentleman ought to be branded as one who has been imposing upon the credulity of the people. I yield to no man in my admiration of the Empire. I value the liberties which have been bestowed upon us, and, although they are not all that we may desire, we must judge them by comparison with those which obtain in other countries. There is no country in the world which confers upon its subjects the same amount- of freedom that is enjoyed by those under the British flag. I am anxious to foster the development of Australia by making those monopolists who hold unduly large areas for their own aggrandizement disgorge, with a view to promoting closer settlement. But the honorable member for Ballarat is not willing that that result should be brought about. When he talks about the welfare of the great British Empire, he is simply playing with words. 189 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn Le t us have the peroration. 189 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The'honorabl e member will have to wait for the peroration, which in the case of the honorable member, when he next meets the people, will be the "Dead March in Saul." Thepublic will no longer tolerate the kind of representation which has hitherto characterized this National Parliament. I shall' remember the action of the honorable member and of his party in endeavouring toclose the mouths of their critics in this Chamber. Yesterday they attempted tostrangle discussion in this House by preventing a debate upon the Governor-General's speech. 190 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS If the honorable membei wishes to discuss that speech, he should debate the Labour Party's platform. 190 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I am not anxious to do that. To discuss the Labour platform would be like talking Greek to the honorable member. He has been so mixed up with platforms recently that, doubtless, he wants to see how the Labour Party's platform compares with that of his own organization. 190 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Throughout Australia there are only 200,000 people upholding the platform in which I believe. 190 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Ar e those people going to follow the Conservative Party and "march under the Conservative banner ? 190 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks No , they are going to make the Conservative Party swallow their platform. 190 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER If the honorable member desires to bring that state of things about I have no objection to his organization. All I have to say is that the people with whom he is associated are not altogether blind to the composition of the party which occupies the Opposition benches. They are not blind to the difficulties in the way of placing democratic legislation upon the statute-book, and I feel sure that when the time comes they will sympathize with the toilers and the down-trodden, and that as brothers and men they will respond to an appeal to their humanitarian sympathies and will help us to haul down the flag of conservatism. Three years ago the honorable member saw the cloud coming. He realized that sooner or later the free-traders would have to swallow their principles, and accordingly he took time by the forelock, and formed a party of his own. I wish him success, so long as he does not ally himself with the party which is absolutely opposed to the best interests of the people. During this debate the honorable member for Ballarat has not indicated the reason why he has departed from his promise to support the Labour Party, so long as their measures were just and reasonable. Now there is no honorable member who is more able to explain anything, i f it is capable of explanation, than the honorable member himself. Even when he is not able to satisfactorily explain any matter he makes a very good attempt at doing so. But in the present instance his case is so utterly hopeless that he dare not allow his silvertongued oratory to run for five minutes. He has failed to respect the trust committed to him by the people, and he has been unjust both to himself and to his own party. Consequently he occupies the very unenviable position in which we see him to-day. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m. I feel that it is almost compulsory to make further remarks with regard to the combination or fusion that • we find on the Opposition benches to-day. The honorable member for Ballarat has played very many parts. I do not intend to repeat what has been said, ably and concisely, in that regard by previous speakers. Sufficient has been said to enable the people of this great Commonwealth to draw their own conclusions from the Hansard report. Any debate which may be indulged in on this occasion is more than warranted by the unprecedented action which was taken on the Address-in-Reply by the honorable gentlemen who are coming into power. In addition to the many political parts he has played, the honorable member for Ballarat has been a great student of other things than polities'. Reincarnation has been, I think, one of his late studies. He has given, I believe, great attention to the possibilities of reincarnation as a factor in developing souls when they are transferred from this sphere to some other one. No stronger proof of that doctrine have I found than that which is furnished by the honorable gentleman. Surely reincarnation has come down to earth, when we find him continuously changing from one position to another, swallowing himself with that avidity which is characteristic of a man of his temperament, and proving beyond doubt that he, at any rate, can be reincarnated from month to month, or from year to year, as the political exigencies may demand. 190 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr Thi s is "Reincarnation in our time," not "Socialism in our time." 190 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Exactly . It is not the honorable member for Ballarat alone who is an example of the doctrine of " reincarnation in our time." On that side of the House we find the process to be absolutely general. I hold in my hand a few remarks which have been uttered during the last few months in connexion with honorable members who constitute the Conservative Party here to-day. I propose to put on record one or two of the absolutely inexplicable utterances which have emanated from those honorable gentlemen who to-day find themselves in opposition to the party which sits on the riebt of the chamber. At Ipswich, on the 27th November, 1906, the honorable member for Parramatta compared the Deakin Party with "a row of fowls out in the rain— feeble, poor, and few." Whether they have gone to roost in his hencoop, or whether he has gone to roost in theirs, I do not know. I suppose that one may conclude thai they are not now in the rain, but in the sunshine of anticipation of the offices which they are to fill.i The honorable member for Parramatta is welcome to the companionship which he has formed. When a man can make an utterance of that kind only a few months ago with regard to the leader whom he now follows, and the party whom he is associated with, and whom he described as a number of fowls out in the rain, it must be an indication to the public as to what parties can come together in this House for a common purpose. Before we come to a verdict on a matter of this kind, we require corroborative evidence, and the more corroborative it is the more damning will be the verdict which must be uttered by the public when they read the reports of our proceedings. Senator Clemons, who has some knowledge O'f the honorable member for Ballarat and political parties in this House, used these words— The place Mr- Deakin held in Federal politics was that of a skilful fortune-teller with a shifty utterance. His political aims and decisions were as uncertain as the flight of a butterfly. How prophetic was that utterance made by Senator Clemons in Launceston on the 18th July, 1905. Here is a man, who nearly four years ago could see through the honorable gentleman, and describe him in the words I have just quoted. Never has any utterance more truly portrayed the conduct of the honorable member for Ballarat during the recent recess. I now come to the opinions of the honorable member for Ballarat with regard to other persons, and the public will marvel how they could come together after the utterance I am about to •quote. In the Age of the 22nd December, 1905—an d that newspaper always reports the honorable member for Ballarat correctly— h e is reported to have made these remarks— Our personal relations do not appear to me to demand more attention than they have already received. After repeated interviews I found him (Mr. Reid) vacuous and insincere. I wonder what the honorable member for East Sydney has to say of the honorable member for Ballarat to-day— I had been warned that I had to do with an unscrupulous and untrustworthy politician, and I found by bitter experience when Parliament met that I had to meet, as I told him to his face, black treachery as well. His treachery was to the men who at great risk to themselves had placed and kept him in power, against whom he aimed in his proposed dissolution the deadliest blow he could direct against the protectionist policy and party. That is the opinion of the honorable member for Ballarat with regard to his attitude after the defeat .of the Reid Administration. Are there any words which could be more damning to the personal or political reputation of any man than the words used on that occasion regarding the honorable member for East Sydney? How true they are to-day! That they have been proved up to the hilt by recent actions in •this chamber must be self-evident to every observing man. To-day the honorable member for East Sydney is practically gagged. He cannot say on this occasionwhat he would like to say. I feel that he dare not allow himself to speak. Otherwise the words uttered by the honorable member for Ballarat on that occasion werenot an indication of his true feelings towards the right honorable gentleman. Then the honorable member for Ballarat, as reported in the Argus of the 13th July, 1905, made use of these words regarding the right honorable member for East Sydney— Mr. Reid, who, without notice or justification-, treacherously threw a bomb amongst the men behind him, found himself hoist with- his ownpetard. My old objections to taking office when Mr. Reid came into power remained as strong as they were when I declined his overtures. I neitherexpected nor desired it. Nothing but a great emergency would have induced me to accept it. The one man in Australia responsible for forcing me into his place—whic h I was far from envying and am far from welcoming—wa s Mr. Reid. His breach of faith with our party wasso indefensible that it made an instant severance inevitable. Either the Ministry or the whole of the business of Parliament had to be sacrificed. Yet to-day these men are cheek by jowl. 191 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest The honorable member, appears not to like it. 191 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Th e right honorable member should be ashamed of it, but I welcome it,, as do the people of Australia. Why should I object to be relieved of the company of men whose utterances indicatetheir character? The salvation of the Labour Party lies in separating themselves from their enemies, and standing compact before the country, ready to fight for the public welfare. 192 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Th e honorable member's constituents will require him to say why he supported these men so strongly. 192 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER M y constituents have never had occasion to accuse me of playing them false, or of not honestly advocating the principles upon which I was elected. They cannot accuse me of breaking my election pledges, as the honorable, member and those associated with him are doing. I am not here by his help or that of his party ; I was returned despite the bitterest opposition which could be given to any man. I was returned, not by deceiving my electors, but because I hopefully and manfully gave utterance to the truth that is. in me, and explained my parliamentary ambitions. 192 KGZ WA Party 0 0 HEDGES , William Noah Mr Hedges Wha t will they think when they hear of the company which the honorable member has been keeping, and is now denouncing? 192 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Th e honorable member should keep silence; the further he pushes into this debate the worse' it will be for his allies. Let me proceed with my exposure of the perfidy of these men as evidenced by their utterances. 192 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest Perfidy is not a parliamentary term. 192 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I withdraw it, because, like many other terms which are true and applicable in this connexion, it is not parliamentary. . Mr. Reid, replying to Mr. Deakin, on the 14th Julv. 1905 192 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I am not insisting: on a mere matter of form when I ask the honorable member to refer to his fellowmembers by the names of their constituencies. Mr. Reid, Mr. Deakin, and others whose names might be mentioned, are not in this House except as the representatives of constituencies, and must therefore be referred to in their representative capacity. 192 KXK ALP 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER A s I am quoting from passages in which the names of these gentlemen appear, I naturally feel it difficult to follow the rule of debate to which you, sir, are drawing attention, and sometimes forget, that I should speak of them by the names of their constituencies. This is what the right honorable member for East Sydney said of the honorable member for Ballarat a day after the utterances, which I have just quoted, were published— I consulted him (Mr. Deakin) again on Wednesday, June 21st, three days before his speech at Ballarat, and I could still have sworn that he was as loyal and cordial as ever. I told my colleagues, as it seemed with a fallacious confidence, on the day before the Ballarat speech, that I could tell when a man had any ulterior motives or designs in his mind, and my personal intercourse with Mr. Deakin until the previous Wednesday had convinced me he was the same loyal and generous ally he had always been. That was on the Friday. Then came the Saturday's speech of my friend and ally. If that was the speech of the loyal and. generous ally I had taken him for, then I and all my colleagues acted wrongly and foolishly in doing what we did, and the suicidal mania became feasible. I' do not know how these men are going to justify themselves before the public, having regard to their previous attitude to each other. I come now to deal with another member of the Opposition, who has the respect of every man in this chamber, and, I think, of the people outside, the honorable member for North Sydney. It is only recently that he has fallen from grace. In order that I may not do him an injustice, let me quote what he has said about the man with whom he is now associated. This is a report of his remarks on the 14th September, 1905— But what of Mr. Deakin? Has he not risen, yet fallen? Risen to office but fallen in repute. Either he must be found guilty of disloyalty to the cause he advocated when he assisted so ardently in the formation of the late Ministry, as well as to Mr. Reid, and to those of his own party who took office in the Ministry with his approval, or he must be ranked as one of those whose political perceptions are becoming so blunted that he cannot weigh the decency, effect, or meaning of his own words and actions. In other words, the honorable member for North Sydney excuses the honorable member for Ballarat for his peculiar .position by indicating that he is not responsible for his actions—tha t the only reasonable and charitable view is that the leader of the Opposition cannot weigh the full effects of his words. Yet to-day the honorable member for North Sydney is found sitting in company with the honorable member for Ballarat. and will probably be a member of the Administration that is about to be formed. If ever there was got together a party of insincere men in any Parliament in the world, it is the party which will occupy these benches within the'next week or two. As I say, we have no complaint to make, because it will be our privilege to pillory these men every time we get a chance, until we can get them to appeal to "the country. It is our duty to the people, more than our privilege, to see that no stone is left unturned in order to leave on their reputation the stigma of reproach they have so deservedly earned for inconsistency during the time they have occupied positions on both sides of the chamber. I have shown a few of the beautiful inconsistencies developed by this fusion of parties; and I now have to charge the honorable member for Ballarat, and those associated with him, with absolute insincerity in their desire to populate and protect Australia. I have in my hand a list which shows unmistakably the earth hunger prevailing in this country. It is marvellous to think that with 3,000,000 square miles of territory we are not able to find land for 4,250,000 people in order to enable them to support their families and -benefit the nation. Here are some figures taken from the Sydney Morning Herald and other newspapers during the last few months— Upper Hunter, 190 applicants for 1,500 acres, 2 blocks. Muswellbrook, 85 applicants for 1,750 acres, 2 blocks. Murwillumbah, 211 applicants for 40 blocks. Murwillumbah, 108 applicants for 26 blocks. Lismore, 53 applicants for 687 acres, 3 blocks. Ganmain (Wagga), 374 applicants for 11,475 acres, 22 blocks. Hay, m applicants for 6,635 acres, 3 blocks. Tweed, 181 applicants for 31 blocks. Muswellbrook, 43 applicants for 1,339 acres, 4 blocks. Forbes, 32 applicants for 1,946 acres, 1 block. Forbes, 11 applicants for 840 acres, 1 block. Bingara, '59 applicants for 2,625 acres, 10 blocks. Kempsey, 25 applicants for 475 acres, 2 blocks. Wyalong, 20 applications for 2,350 acres. In my own electorate, during the last month or two, seven blocks of country, which were part of cancelled improvement leases in New South Wales, and which had been declared unfit for pastoral use by the Minister of Lands, were opened as grazing blocks, and for these there were 700 applicants. The figures are an indication of the earth hunger to-day in New South Wales, and, to some extent, in Victoria and the other States, and represent one of the evils that the present Government are making an honest, sincere, and effective effort to remove. What are members of the Opposition likely to do in this regard? They have already declared that they desire immigration, but to what part of the Commonwealth do they propose to send immigrants? Do they propose to send them to walks all around Australia ? Is it to those large areas of land that would feed thousands of human families and bring prosperity to the country ? No, they propose to send the immigrants to the Northern Territory— int o the torrid zone. The Government or party which could dream for a moment of importing immigrants, and sending them to the Northern Territory, contemplate one of the most diabolical acts of which any Administration could be guilty. Some honorable members did not take advantage of the opportunity presented of investigating on the spot the conditions and possibilities of the Northern Territory, but I did; and I say without hesitation that those lands will never be occupied excepting by the overflow from more favoured lands in the southern parts of the continent. Men cannot be transferred from cold or cooler continents to the Northern Territory, and induced to live there, unless they have passed a period of acclimatisation in the more southern and favoured parts of the country; and to send immigrants there would be the worst that could possibly be done for the advancement of this great continent and its future safety. There is no doubt that we shall have to take over the Northern Territory for defence purposes; but God forbid that the day is near when we shall attempt to delude immigrants from other countries into settling there, until they have, as I say, passed through a period of acclimatisation. As to opening up land for the applicants I have mentioned—fo r those sons of farmers and others who cannot find a place in which to put their labour to profitable use —w e are absolutely without any hope from any Government that may be formed of honorable members opposite. The honorable member for Ballarat suggests- that this matter should be left to the States, bur be knows as well as I do that to do so would be only a means of evading the question and escaping the responsibility which his position will carry. What can be done in the States, with "the Legislative Councils constituted of landlords, some elected and some nominated? In my judgment, there is not a State in Australia where the Legislative Council would agree to an effective progressive land tax for the benefit of the people; and, therefore, the honorable member for Ballarat is insincere when he puts his proposal forward and professes to be anxious for the safety of this continent from foreign attack. "While he has the landlords of the Opposition corner applying the brake to his political machine, the honorable member for Ballarat has no hope of placing on the statute-book a Commonwealth progressive land tax. I regard the imposition of such a tax as the king-pin of our progress, as likely to be the centre of all prosperity and success. Unless we have areas of land suitable for settlement to offer intending immigrants, we cannot expect, and ought not to attempt to induce, them to come here. The honorable member for Ballarat says that we must trust to the States to pass land tax legislation. What does that mean? Mr. Wade has intimated that he does not intend to do anything of the kind; but let us consider for a moment what would be the position if such a measure were passed by the Legislature of New South Wales. Would it attract population from abroad ? Certainly not. It would simply attract to New South Wales land-seekers'from other parts of the Commonwealth. It would be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. We should simply transfer people from one State to another. We should benefit one State by impoverishing all the others in the Union. Such a proposition, therefore, is impracticable, and, that being so, all the professions of the honorable member for Ballarat as to a desire to encourage immigration and, in that way, to secure the safety of the Empire, may be regarded as mere moonshine. 194 2.47 L17 Dalley FT 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS During this debate, Mr. Speaker, I have not observed any anxiety on the part of honorable members on this side of the Honse to catch your eye. We have had from the other side of the House speech after speech attacking honorable members of the Opposition, and, listening to them. I have been led to speculate as- to how the public are likely to regard these proceedings. Will they not be inclined to ask—"Wher e do we come in?" We were promised that we should have in Federal politics a rarer atmosphere, but I must freely admit that as a member of the Parliament of New South Wales I never saw so much bad taste exhibited in connexion with the displacement of a Ministry as we have witnessed in this House within the last twenty-four hours. We have had a review of the history of the relations that existed between the Deakin Administration and the Labour Party. We have listened to the honorable member for Hume castigating his former colleague, and we have heard much that in my judgment, will create on the part of the public a feeling of disgust in regard to Federal politics. 194 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor —Wit h regard to fusion politics. 194 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I intend to deal with the fusion. We have been informed that the Labour Party entered into a compact with the Deakin Administration to keep them in office until certain measures were passed, and for a reasonable period after that time. The Attorney-General and the honorable member for Hume have vouched for the truth of that statement. They have said that there was a compact to keep the Labour Ministry in power for a reasonable time, and it is well that that fact should be placed on record, since the Labour Party on the platform and elsewhere, never fail to take to themselves special credit for purity of motive. It will be interesting to the public to learn that the Labour Party, without the knowledge of the electors and behind the backs of their own leagues, entered into a secret compact with the members of the Deakin Party by which the one was to assist the other. I can conceive of nothing more obnoxious in the world of politics. They complain of the tactics of those who are anxious to remove them from office, but such tactics dwindle into insignificance when compared with the secret compact made by the Labour Party behind the backs of their leagues. 194 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor N o secret compact ever existed 194 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Wha t power have the Labour Party to enter into a compact with another party by which each shall be secured in turn a term of office? I thought that their only concern was to carry into effect the planks of their platform. I make no apology to the Labour Party for the vote which I gave yesterday. According to the newspaper reports, as the result of the coalition we are to revert to the old svstem of representative and responsible government. We are to have in power a Ministry having behind it a majority of the members of this House— a Ministry responsible for its own acts and making no alliance. Every member of the party is to have a personal responsibility—i s to be personally responsible to his electors for his acts in this Parliament. And this is what the Labour Party describe as a return to conservative conditions. 194 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I s that a special brand of virtue of which the Opposition have a monopoly ? 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I am merely stating what the newspapers report will be the result of the Coalition Ministry. Until I see the coalition in working order, I must take those statements at their label value; but, personally, I am going to be responsible to my constituents for all my votes and actions. 195 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I s responsibility to one's constituents a special brand of virtue enjoyed only by the Opposition? 195 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Yes ; the Labour Party are responsible only to their leagues. 195 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher That is not so. 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Th e Prime Minister and his party have not that virtue. As a matter of fact, they are tied down by their leagues. Towards the close of last session, when the statement of Ministerial policy was under review, I gave expression to views.which I can indorse to-day. 195 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Doe s the honorable member say that we are not responsible to our constituents ? 195 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Onl y in a secondary degree. 195 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Ever y honorable member must be responsible, at all events, to the majority. 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Th e honorable member is very keen, but he does not put the position clearly. Every member of the Labour Party, when before the electors, can always excuse any of his votes by explaining that he voted in accordance with the will of the majority. 195 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas H e cannot. 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS It has been done time after time. 195 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Ho w can he i f the particular matter on which he votes is not covered by the platform? 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Labou r members are returned to Parliament as members of a fighting party, and as such they meet in caucus, and the public are absolutely unaware of what is decided in caucus, either as to the life of a Government or otheiwise. The public do not know whether there is a majority of the party, or how great the majority is, in favour, for instance, of supporting the Deakin Administration, or how many are opposed to it. What I am fighting for is to have these, matters decided in this House in the open light of day. We are returned as public representatives, and our decisions should be made public. I am not grumbling at the attitude of the Labour Party, but I am grumbling at their decisions being come to in caucus. Such a "practice is destructive of the principle of representative government. 195 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Ha s not the same thing, taken place lately in the caucuses of other . parties ? 195 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS If it has, I have not been present. I think the Prime Minister took up a very manful position in his replv to the attack made by the leader of the Opposition, and reconciled himself to the inevitable fact that the numbers are against him. But I am not at all attracted by the squealing which has gone on since, or by the amount of secret history that .has been disclosed to the public in our debates. All I can say is that i f Australia can stand 111 members of this Parliament, at ^600 a year each, squabbling like this, with seven or eight Ministers fighting not to go out of office, and seven or eight others fighting to get into office, it is a very fine country. I honestly believe that the citizens of Australia, the men who are not anxious to enter public life, are heartily sick of the conduct of politics. I am only too glad to see some solution arrived at. We have now onlv two parties, and it is easy for a man to choose which he will be with. I have chosen to be with this party. A man has now to be either with the political Labour Party or against it. The members of the Labour Party ought to be only too glad to come over to this side in opposition, in view of the coming elections, for I can understand their being in a stronger position after a few months in opposition than they are to-day, or than they would be i f they continued in power up "to the time of the elections. The honorable member for Ballarat is now the leader of this party. He must have a marvellous genius for commanding his temper, because I cannot understand how any member could take the attacks that have been made upon him so calmly. I do not know whether my nature is different, or whether I am not keen enough at playing the game, but I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that even you, with your long parliamentary experience and judicial nature, could not have sat upon these benches and taken attacks upon you in the way the honorable member for Ballarat has takenthe attacks upon him. It shows either a masterly self-control or a total indifference to the opinions of others. I do not know yet how to put it. It is still a mystery to me. I am used to the rough-andtumble of political life, but if any one said to me half of what has been said to the honorable member for Ballarat, I would not try to meet it even by mental exchanges, but I would ask my opponents if they really meant what they said, and if they did I would take pretty prompt steps to show them what I would do. As an old hand' at parliamentary life I am certain that the public, when they read these severe attacks made by honorable members upon one another, will refuse after a while to believe either side. They will come to the conclusion that it is only part of the game, and that it is impossible for it to be genuine, or else flesh and blood could not stand it. I have beard attacks made, not only upon the political position of the honorable member for Ballarat, but even on his very manhood. I cannot understand how any honorable member can take it so calmly. Perhaps I am taking it too seriously, but if it is only banter, I think that in a serious time like this banter could be very well left on one side. I may be wrong, but my opinion is that the honorable member for Ballarat is to-day the only possible leader of a radical force in Australia outside of the Labour Party. Time after time I have supported his measures, and I have simply now to wait until he brings in his platform. If , as some honorable members predict, he simply waits upon the honorable members in the Opposition corner, and displays Conservative views, I shall not vote for him any longer. I am backing him now on his past experience, and on his avowal of radical principles, and a radical policy. In doing so, I believe I am' correctly interpreting the wishes of my electors. If not, they will have an opportunity very shortly to vote against me. If the fight has to come, it might just as well come now as nine months hence. The Labour Party have fought me for years, and I would much sooner meet them in a fortnight's time than nine months hence. We are really entering upon a new condition of politics in Australia. The Labour Party, for the first time in the history of the Commonwealth, will appeal to the public to be intrusted with straight-out powers of government. They already hold twentyseven seats, and if they can onlv capture twelve more, they will be the ruling force in Australia. There will then be no danger of the disclosure of secret compacts or negotiations such as we have heard lately. Tbe greatest smudge upon Federal politics has been placed there within the last day or two bv the Attorney-General and the honorable member for Hume, when they stated that arrangements were made to keep certain people in power for a certain time, and that afterwards it was to be turn-and-turn about. For the last few years I have not occupied the' most enviable position in the House. Rightly or wrongly I have gone for what I have believedjfb be the duty of a responsible representative, and I have not gone back on the principles that I was returned to advocate and defend. Honorable members have said that I had to swallow a pill or bolus, but, if I did, I swallowed it four or five years ago, and it is digested now. A lot of other honorable members are only now swallowing their pill, and I hope it will not disagree with them. Although it is apparently the usual custom in this debate to show by quotations that on a certain date an opponent said certain things, and on another date said the opposite, making the quotations with a good deal of vim and vigour, I shall ask the leave of the House simply to quote myself. On the 27th November, 1908, when dealing with the Ministerial statement made by the present Prime Minister, I said— The Labour Party have never been met by a solid, well-organized force in proper battle array; but live on the divisions of thought and opinion in this House and in the country. I feel sure that the submission of a Liberal-progressive platform, under a proper leader, would make a sjreat change, because the sympathetic vote now given to Labour would be transferred. The honorable member foi Calare interjected— If there had been a true Liberal Party there would have been no Labour Party. There is no more earnest Labour member in the House than the honorable member for Calare, and that interjection of his states the true history of the position both in State and Federal politics. If the Liberal forces had kept pace with the demands of the people we should never have known a Labour Party in this country. 196 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor Is there a true Liberal Party on the honorable member's side of the House at the present time? 196 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I am not to be drawn into answering that question. In the speech from which I have quoted, I went on to say— But the people were afraid of the Conservatives, and were only too glad to come under the Labour banner, which offered some hope of progress. The only Liberal leader that I can discern in this House is the late Prime Minister. I was not returned to either support or oppose that honorable gentleman; and all I could do was to vote for legislation in which I believed, whether introduced by his or any other party; and I am in that position to-day. That last sentence puts my position even to-day. 1 still believe, from my experience of the honorable member for Ballarat, that he is the true leader of the democratic forces of this country. He is the natural leader of the advanced party .in this House. What separated me from him in the past was the fiscal issue. I was with him in all questions of advanced legislation. If I could fall in with the methods of the Labour Party, I should have no hesitation in putting myself at the disposal of the Labour leagues. But I ' oppose their methods to-day, because I consider that they exercise more tyranny than any party that I have a knowledge of. I do not consult any Labour league as to whether I shall support advanced politics. I have views of my own, which I lay before the electors. If they choose to return me to promote those views, well and good. But I will not submit to what the Labour Party call discipline. There is no machine politics in Australia that exercises such tyranny in the name of discipline as that exercised by the Labour Party. 197 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor We manage to set along very well. 197 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison It is pure freedom. 196 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS It is a kind of freedom that I do not understand. I will quote a Concluding passage from the speech to which I have already referred— I am simply pointing out that the Labour Party have succeeded because they have readily conformed to the twentieth century idea of politics, and have organized their forces. I wish to See put forward in this Parliament a programme clrawn on liberal and progressive lines. Such a programme will receive my support, regardless of by whom it may be put forward. The late Prime Minister introduced some legislation for which I voted, and I find myself associated with a party, some of the members of which are not prepared to vote fbr measures which I should favour. I am still waiting for.the coming of that leader. I am not " buying a pig in a poke,'' but am backing the honorable member for Ballarat on his past performances. If his policy be in the direction of radicalism, no man will be more pleased than I ; and I shall not believe, until it is proved to me, that a man with his record is going to surrender the Liberal principles to which he has always adhered. There are many honorable members who, in the past, have sat on the opposite side to me whom I am pleased to see on this side of the Chamber now. I can assure them that this side required a leaven of radicalism. We have it now. It came to us with a strength of eleven or twelve votes. I do not say that there was no liberal thought on the Opposition side previously. I am not so unjust as to think so. Nor do I say that honorable members have no right to express conservative views. Their views in politics are the concern of their electors. But, nevertheless, I am' glad to see an accession of Liberalism to this side, and trust that, for old association sake, the honorable memUer will take care that the platform of his Government is devised on Liberal lines. 197 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook He is there for that purpose 197 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I hope that that is so. 197 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Th e honorable member should not make any mistake. 197 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I am not mistaking any one for the honorable member for Hume. He has not been himself lately. I know that he is a good man for sticking to his friends. He has done so all his life. 197 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I am a good man for sticking to my enemies, too. 197 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I think that there are some very strange people amongst his present friends; but that is his business. When the honorable member looks at his last night's speech a week or two hence, I think he will find that it will read something like this: " There is another swindle on, and I am not in i t . " That is how it sounded to me. I hope that I am not doing the honorable member an injustice. 197 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster I think that the honorable member's description is quite correct, as far as the swindle is concerned 197 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER Th e honorable member admits, then, that the coalition is a swindle? 197 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I did not say so, but that is what the honorable member for Hume probably thinks. I have not. been to the party meetings, but have read what has been going on. As to the new protection proposal, no honorable member is more sympathetic towards it than I am. I am pleased'to see the right honorable member for Swan putting on radical clothes at last. I remember saying, last session, that I did not know how he would get into them; but that is his business. I am also pleased that the Opposition Corner is adopting liberal views, at the instance of the honorable member for Ballarat; and the country ought to be grateful to him for the change that he has brought about. This morning it was said that the honorable member for Ballarat was the " boss intriguer." In my judgment, the honorable member for Parramatta has shown himself to be deserving of that description. He has got the honorable member for Ballarat on to this side. I had thought that it would be impossible for any one to do that. I do not doubt that we are going to have a big struggle in the future. But at the next elections the public will not .fail to be told what. the cause of the trouble is. It amused me to hear some honorable members opposite say that they did not have a chance of discussing the Governor-General's speech. As a matter of fact the speech is little more than a repetition of the platform of the Labour leagues. It is creditable to the Prime Minister that it should be so. Last session I took the opportunity of saying that it was of no use discussing what the Prime Minister then said; that we should have to wait for the Governor-General's, speech to know what his policy was. But, as a matter of fact, the speech was already writtenby the Labour leagues, and if the Prime Minister was the honorable man that I took him to be—as I know that he is—the Governor- General's speech was bound to be a formal statement of the programme of the Labour leagues. If the Prime Minister had not made it such, he might have had a nine months' longer tenure of office, but at the expense of a sacrifice of principle, and his own leagues would have put him out of power at the earliest opportunity. That, in fact, is one of the objections that I have to the Labour Party. I believe in the strong man theory, and I hope the honorable member for Ballarat will prove to be the strong-man on this occasion. I have no complaint to make against those who approve of the drawing up of a political platform by political leagues., but I hold the view that nations are advanced very often not by the action of numbers of individuals, but by the work of strong men who at different periods of their history appear upon the scene and lead them. No one will deny that machine politics exist in Australia to-day. The Australian Political Labour Party is probably as well organized as any political party in the world. If an honorable member like myself is attacked, no one on the same side thinks of coming to his assistance, but let a member of the Political Labour Party, though the humblest in their ranks, be attacked, and the whole party at once comes to his assistance. 1 know that in the constituency I have had the honour to represent for years, I have had to fight them time after time, and they have often brought the whole of their forces into the constituency to oppose me. Let it not be forgotten in this connexion that mine is a labour constituency. It is not a pocket borough, such as I heard referred to to-day. where the influence of certain powerful vested interests are sufficient to secure the return of a candidate. There is no stronger labour constituency in the Commonwealth than that which I represent, and I have had to fight all the forces of the Labour Party to secure my election. Honorable members opposite will not deny that the easy course for me would have been to join their ranks years ago. I have not done so, and there must be some reason for my refusal to do so. In political principle we are not so far removed, but my reason for not joining them is that the members of the Political Labour Partv have not, in my opinion, the personal freedom which they ought to have. I cannot, of course, disclose confidences given to me, and I shall not attempt to do so, but I do make this speculation, that in the ranks of the Political Labour Party to-day there are many members who would like to have the freedom I have. 198 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher The n they ought to be out of it. 198 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS The n I hope they will come out of it. 198 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I hope they will, too. 198 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Th e honorable member for Perth is coming out. 198 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Yes . and hear thenames they will call him when he does.. 198 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison Wha t is the honorable member .for Perth prevented from doing as a member of the party? 198 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Suc h make-belief is of no ' use in this Chamber. Let any honorable member opposite leave the ranks of the Political Labour Party to-morrow, and we know that his position on every publicplatform would be made a hellish one. 198 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Wha t would happen to a member who left the " fusion party "? 198 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Well , take my own case. 199 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Th e honorable member does not belong to them. 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I am giving an illustration of personal political freedom. I have been associated for years with honorable members included in the party cn this side, and I have never known any one at meetings of those members to have his •opinions fettered in the way I am referring to. If any man wished for greater liberty than I have been given amongst honorable members on this side, he would be a political anarchist. 199 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL The n why did the honorable member leave them? 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I say openly that I left them because they were rather too conservative politically for me, but they now have a radical and liberal leader, and, perhaps, have seen the error of their ways. Throughout this debate my name has been -associated with a certain outside organisation. My association with it has been referred to sometimes in a bantering way, sometimes in terms of ridicule; at other times with severity, or in a sneering way. But I have stood that kind of thing before, and am prepared to do so again. I lhave stood it in this Chamber and on public platforms in Australia. It may be said that on this question I am wrong, or that I have a "rat," but i f I have, it is my own rat. 197 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I hope that it is not a plague rat. 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS If it were i t would probably be in the honorable gentleman's pocket. It has been said that the fusion ihas been brought about by the outside party referred to. I must admit that, at the present time, the platform proposed is very much like that of the outside party, and I am waiting to see whether, in about a fortnight's time, it will not be more like i t . The members of the outside party to which I refer have realized that the political Labour forces of Australia have no right to the title of " Labour." They annexed it. The source of the most powerf u l influence in the political Labour Party to-day is to be found in their title. The most magical word that can be used on any platform in Australia is the word "Labour." The whole stock-in-trade of honorable members opposite is comprised in their title of the " Political Labour Party." I may be wrong, but I am beginning to think that, as a partv, they are more political than labour to-day. • They are in the habit of indulging in personalities, in reference to the wealth and position of individuals opposed to them, but I am sure that there are many Labour supporters in the country who would be very glad to be as well off as are some of the members of the Political Labour Party. When they claim to be Samaritans and supporters of down-trodden humanity, I should like to see them practice a little of the doctrine they preach. If there is any poverty at all I seem to have my fair share of i t , but I do not travel on that, and do not desire to do so. When honorable members opposite denounce honorable members on this side as the " fat men " of the community who stand behind the vested interests of the country, I put my own case, and I say that I do not stand behind the vested interests of the country. 199 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor WNo , they are behind the honorable member. 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS The y are not behind me When I hear honorable members opposite charging honorable members on this side with being well off, and trying to make the public believe that they are mere supporters of wealth, I cannot forget that there are some of themselves who could buy up the worldly possessions of those whom they denounce'. These personalities are most distasteful, but I know there will be a very keen fight at the next election, and that the Political Labour Party will not be too scrupulous as to the means they will employ against those to whom they are opposed. The outside organization to which some honorable members opposite have referred in tones of disgust, is the Orange Party of Australia. Let me say openly that I am a member of it, and I believe I took a fairly active part in the drafting of the platform of that party. They have come forward with a political platform, and are as keen in political warfare to-day as are the Labour leagues of Australia. Candidates who look for their support will get it only upon their platform. 199 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL The y always vote in big squadrons. 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS The y do nothing of the sort. The honorable member received their support at the last election. He cannot deny that. 199 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL I do deny it . 199 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS A m I to -understand that the honorable member does not want their support at the next election? 200 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor The y did their best to down me. 200 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Th e best friend the honorable member had was Mr. Vale. These are matters which should be stripped of all disguise, and the party to which I refer make no pretence, but come forward boldly as a political party. They have a perfect right to form themselves into a political body, and to adopt the machinery that is best calculated to serve their own interests. The Labour Partv say, " Those who are not with us are against us. Those who will not come with us we will put to the sword." The rank and file of the organization to which I belong—eve n i f they are ill-advised—ar e at least honest in their desire to give effect to their own platform. They have as much right to organize as has the Labour Party. I recognise that at the next election there will be a struggle for supremacy, and I hope we shall win. An attack has been made on the honorable member for Maribyrnong, because he belonged to the Orange order. In my judgment, the time has gone by when an apology for belonging to it was necessary. There are men in the Labour Party itself who only a few years ago were themselves members 'of it. Yet the honorable member for Dalley is frequently used as a chopping-block because of his association with that order. Honorable members opposite say, " Poor devil, he is to be pitied." Now I neither ask for nor require the pity of honorable members. I repeat tliat there are members of the Labour Party to-day who only a few years ago were members of the organization to which I belong. I say further that the Labour Party owes its origin to that very institution. I am sorry that the democratic forces of that institution ever , allowed them to get away from it. With most of the views of the Labour Party I am in agreement, but I differ from its members upon the question of the machinery which it employs. If they are honest in their views they must in the future fight for true Socialism. They must publicly avow themselves as Socialists. 200 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas Wh o objects to doing that ? 200 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Man y honorable members who are sitting on the Ministerial benches do not advocate Socialism when they are before the electors. They call themselves the "advanced forces" of labour, and so on. XXXX KYD 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON What is true Socialism? 200 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS It is remarkable how sensitive some honorable members are toany observations made by members of the Orange institution. They at once flatly deny the truth of those observations. But no contradiction is heard of statements made by the other side. The members of the Labour Party say, " We do not want sectarianism in politics." Yet they, know perfectly well that I have never advocated the introduction of sectarianism into our political life. A man's religion is his own concern between himself and the Creator. But the Orange institution is a political one. Its members believe that the Labour leagues are working for the dismemberment of the Empire, and that under the guise of Australian nationalism they intend to attack the integrity of the Empire. Consequently they have combined in the open light of day, as they have a perfect right to do. Let any member of the Labour Party announce his candidature for a seat in Parliament in opposition to the candidate selected by the Labour leagues, and see what the result will be. 200 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts D o not the Orange lodges do the same thing? 200 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Th e Attorney-General endeavoured to make it appear that every honorable member sitting on these benches ought to wear a rosette. I wish that they did. If their political .programme is an advanced one, there is no doubt that the Orange institution will support them. To say that a man was drummed out of that institution because he voted for the honorable member for Corio is not true. The honorable member for Cook knows that. Prior to the last election he was accorded the assistance of the Orange lodge. 200 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts I deny it 200 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Doe s the honorable member deny that he went to the" lodges and asked for their support? 200 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts Yes 200 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Thre e or four times whilst the honorable member for Dalley has been speaking he has turned his back to me to address honorable members opposite. Upon each occasion I have called his attention to the fact that he must address the Chair. He must realize the great risk of provoking disorder which attaches to any honorable member in possession of the Chair addressing honorable members personally. I hope that he will not break the rule again. 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I can only plead as an excuse for my transgression that I was watching some rather slippery customers, and therefore had to keep my eye upon them. I am astonished at the denial of the honorable member for Cook, but,, nevertheless, I must, accept it., The Orange institution has no quarrel with the Labour Party whatever. But when the Attorney-General spoke in the way that he did, he could not have acted in a manner more calculated to excite the resentment of that institution. He taunted it, and practically challenged its opposition. I repeat that the Orange Party has nothing whatever, against the Labour Party. There is nothing to prevent a member of. that party from receiving its support. 201 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor It has opposed the election of every member of the Labour Party. 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS Onl y of recent years. However, I should not have referred to this matter had it not been for the attack made by the Attorney-General. So far as the fusion, of the political parties in this Parliament is concerned, I merely wish to say that in my opinion the two ablest men in i t — I refer to the right honorable member for East Sydney and the honorable member for Ballarat—hav e been kept apart for too many years. 201 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts The y are not joined now. The right honorable member for East Sydney has absolutely a free hand upon the Tariff. That has been granted to him by the honorable member for Ballarat. 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I do not know whether the right honorable member has an absolutely free hand in respect to the Tariff or not, but I do know that the honorable member for Dalley has a perfectly free hand.' The Labour Party in the past have been successful chiefly because there has been no other party in politics which approximated to it from a progressive stand-point. In some States they have been Radicals, and in other States they have been Conservatives. At the next election they will have to meet a federalized party, and the issue will be made very clear indeed. I regret that these two able men in public affairs have been separated by fiscalism. 201 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page The honorable member does not object to people doing as they like? 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS No ; no one should object to a fair go. As I said in my opening remarks, I would just as soon have the general election held a fortnight hence as nine months hence. Let us get the agony over. The labour people in my electorate say that I am dead. If I am dead I want to show them that I am a lively corpse. There is no question that at the general election we shall have a good fight. On his past professions and actions I can accept the honorable member for Ballarat as a liberal leader. ' If he does not bring in a liberal programme my course will be very clear. I can vote against him. 201 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page Ha s he acknowledged the honorable member's programme? 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I have never asked the honorable gentleman, but it looks as i f he has taken it over, and i f he has I ought to be satisfied. 201 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews Does the honorable member think that honorable members in the Opposition corner will follow a liberal programme ? 201 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS They _ will follow the honorable member for.Ballarat, and i f he brings down a liberal programme they will support him. In their own interests some years ago, the Labour Partv sank fiscalism. In their ranks are extreme protectionists and extreme free-traders, but they are now growling because the party on this side has followed their example. At the last election I told my constituents that I was absolutely f u l l of the struggle about fiscalism, and that when it came to a question of 30 or 3? per cent., it was of no interest to the workers, and I advocated the idea of new nrotection. My only opposition to old protection was that it took money from the manv for the benefit of the few. If , however, means can be devised for insuring the benefits of protection to the worker and consumer, as well as to the manufacturer, it will have my support. Australia to-dav is protectionist. A free-trader who will come down to a duty of 25 per cent, is not a man worth wasting breath over. What I fought for in my younger days was to remove taxation from the necessaries of life, and to put the burden upon the shoulders of the wealthy. But I found that there was no chance of attaining that object. I am now an advocate of new protection, for I desire to see the benefits conferred by the Tariff shared by workers and consumers as well as by manufacturers. Right through the struggle over the Tariff I voted for the lowest duties on the necessaries of l i f e; but, as regards other articles, I stated openly here that I was in the scramble. It was not then a question of principle, but a mere scramble for duties in favour of certain industries. The only thing I am certain of is that I did not get enough protection for my own electorate. It is all very well for some honorable members to pretend that they are actuated by high principles, but when I found men voting free-trade for other States and protection for their own States I thought it was time for 'me to wake up and vote for what I could get. Four years ago I saw this situation coming. I believe that, in Victoria and New South Wales, there will be no- two members more bitterly attacked than will be the honorable member for Maribyrnong and myself. I welcome the attack, and my honorable friend does not seem to be very sorry about .the matter. 202 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I am not much hurt. 202 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr WILKS I do not wish to detain the. House any longer, sir; but as honorable members on this side did not seem to want to attract your-eye, and I had heard many speakers from the • other side, I thought it was only fair that I should rise to express my views, especially as my name had been imported into the discussion. There is no doubt that the execution of the Labour Government is coming off, and it might just as well come off now as a fortnight hence, for the Labour Party have had every opportunity by platform and public utterance to defend their position. I vote for the party on this side, not blindfold, but in the blind as regards their policy. I do not know what it is, but I hope that it is on radical lines. If , however, they allow themselves to be governed by Conservatives, they must not expect my support any longer. 202 3.42 KIN Hume IND 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE I do not intend to delay the House many moments. I wish briefly to refer to a remark which was made by the honorable member for Ballarat. He said that he had listened to what I had to say last night, but that he could not find anything which would give a reason for my strong attitude against him, and the course which he has taken. I want to make the position very clear. I had been, at least I supposed I was,, in the confidence and the confidant of the honorable member for some years. Up to within, I think, about ten days—a t any rate up to the day before he approved of the right, honorable member for Swan and Senator Sir Robert Best going to Sydney — I was "with him. I never got the slightest hint that there were negotiations going on behind me. I accepted what the honorable member for Ballarat said to me in the same good faith and confidence a's I had been in the habit of receiving his statements for some years. As I have stated, I was with the honorable member up to that event, and I thought .that I was in his confidence. He told me that nothing would be done by him without first consulting me. That took place within an hour and a half of his announcement to the press that he wras not going to take office in a Ministry, and also the statement that was made the same evening that the right honorable member for Swan and Senator Sir Robert Best were going to Sydney to negotiate as to the formation of a ' Ministry. I was asked by some of my friends to see the honorable member for Ballarat next day. I went into his room, and told him that I had come to ask one question, and that was whether the right honorable member for Swan had gone to Sydney with his concurrence, and whether he himself had pledged his party, as far as he could, to support a Ministry which that right honorable gentleman might form. He told me that he had done so. It was done behind my back, sir, and I told him what I thought of him, and what I will always think of him. That is a pretty plain reason why I feel so hurt at the manner in which I have, been treated. Although I gave my f u l l heart and my f u l l brain to the honorable member, I found, within a few hours, that he had been working behind me in a way which I have not language to describe. This makes it impossible for me, seeing the close relations which existed between us, to ever believe in him again. I might reasonably have anticipated that he would hate placed confidence in me but when I complained, he said, " I could not tell you about it, because i t was Sir John Forrest's secret." I exclaimed, " I am supposed to be in your confidence, and you have held back what you call Sir John Forrest's secret," to which "his reply was, " I could not give away Sir John Forrest's secret." I think it will be admitted that, throughout my career in both State and Federal politics, I have shown myself 'to be a strong protectionist. I have fought harder for protection than perhaps any one else has done. If I may be allowed to say so, I injured my health in the long Tariff struggle. But in connexion with the fusion —whic h will become confusion—o f parties opposite there is no statement as to what action will be taken to preserve the Tariff. I am not satisfied, and never will be, with the Tariff as it is, because its effectiveness was destroyed, or, at least, seriously injured by the efforts, of the Corner Party. There are many anomalies in it which I shall ask whatever party may be in power to rectify, and a number of duties which should and must be imposed in the interests of Australian industries. Tariff questions will not be allowed to rest. It is all very well for the honorable member for Dalley to say that it does not matter whether the duties that are imposed amount to 20, 25, or 35 per cent, ; it matters a great deal to the people of this country. I rose to clearly explain why my heart has been taken out of me, and my belief in human nature destroyed, by the action of the honorable member for Ballarat. In yesterday's Melbourne Herald I read a statement made by a prospective colleague of. his, or, at any rate, by one who will get something from him—the right honorable member for East Sydney—whic h astounded me, and which I wish to have recorded in Hansard. It is as follows— The comments of the Herald on the terms of the fusion show that there has been a misconception as to the clause relating to the Tariff, said Mr. G. H. Reid to-day. "The clause referred to, as published this , morning in the Age," continued Mr. Reid, " is • no interference with the protectionist policy of the present Customs Tariff, unless to rectify anomalies. Before the fusion, the free-traders in the direct Opposition requested Mr. Joseph Cook to make our position under the clause perfectly clear to Mr. Deakin. • We pointed out that i f an alteration in the Tariff was proposed which raised the fiscal issue as between free-traders and protectionists, that we free-traders held our- •selves perfectly free to vote according to our convictions. To make assurance 'doubly sure, when the united party met, I . then defined our position again before the whole of the members of the new party. I pointed out to them that it would be most undesirable to leave any room for future recriminations as to the observance or non-observance of the basis of fusion. I told them that it must be understood distinctly that in becoming members of the new party weTiave agreed to a fiscal truce, and i f the Tariff 'question is re-opened to rectify any alleged anomalies, we have reserved our right to vote in accordance with our own convictions and those of our constituents." What does that mean, but that there is to be an absolute giving away of the protectionist position, and the hauling down of the protectionist flag? It is asserted not only" that no fiscal question is to be raised which may bring free-traders and protectionists into conflict, but that even when the rectification of anomalies is proposed, the free-traders will assert their right to fight against, and, if necessary, prevent it. The paragraph finishes with this sentence— The fiscal truce is not to last only during the present Parliament, but during the next one. Did any. one ever hear of such an arrangement being made for a Parliament not yet elected? 203 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly Th e Labour Party has made a similar arrangement. 203 KIN IND 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE I am not speaking oil behalf of the Labour Party; I am showing' how brutally I and my opinions have been sold in connexion with what has taken place. 203 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts TTh e statement which the honorable member has read shows that the honorable member for Ballarat has deliberatelv sold the protectionist cause. 203 KIN IND 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE I cannot think anything else. I shall not detain the House longer, and should not have risen at all had it not been that my old leader stated last night that he could not find a reason in anything I said for the strong feeling which I have shown in regard to his actions. 203 3.53 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN I shall not detain honorable members more than a few moments. But in justice to mv late colleague and myself, one or two simple facts must be added to his statement. What he said about calling on me on the afternoon when the right honorable member for Swan left for New South Wales is perfectly true, and so is his statement that I did not inform him of the departure. It was particularly desired bv the right honorable member for Swan that he should arrive in Sydney and have an opportunity to see the then leader of the Opposition before the fact that he had left for the purpose was announced in Melbourne. He requested me not to mention the circumstances to any one, and I agreed not to do so. On the following day, I should have informed the honorable member for Hume of the fact that the right honorable member for Slwan had gone to Sydney, and of all the circumstances connected- with his visit there. The honorable member is. again correct when he says that he protested very strongly —vehemently—agains t the proposal that there should be a coalition Government of this character. But when the honorable member left me, so far as I am concerned, he appeared to be content with my own position, since I did not propose to become a member of the Ministry. . 204 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne Th e honorable member is quite mistaken in his recollec-' tion. 204 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest I desire to make a personal explanation, and, in doing so, I .should be sorry to take up more than two minutes of the time of the House. Last night the honorable member for Hume said that he had heard me give orders that all copies of a Banking Bill I had prepared h'ere to be burnt when I left the Treasury. 204 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne That is quite' true. 204 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest Th e honorable member went on to say that he took care that the copies were not burnt. He also said I had kept back from my colleagues the fact that a Bill was being prepared, and that he only heard of the existence of the Bill from the authorities of the Bank of England when he was in London. I desire to say that a Banking Bill had been considered by my predecessor, Sir George Turner, and also by myself, when I was Treasurer; that a Bill was drafted by the Treasury officials under my direction; that I consulted the Bank of England in, London and other bankers here; that the Bill was not settled for submission to the Cabinet when I left office; that the Bill so far as I. had got with it, all the papers connected with it, and also Sir George Turner's notes, were all left in the Treasury when I left office; that. I never gave any instructions to any officer to burn them, or any other public document, in my life. 204 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne O h ! 204 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest Further , I say that I have consulted Mr. Allen, the Secretary to the Treasury, and he says that Sir William Lyne must be under some great misapprehension, as I never gave any such instruction or made any such suggestion. 204 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne I did not say it was Mr. Allen. 204 KFJ WA Party 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest Mr . Allen goes on to say that the Bill and all the papers, as I left them, are still in the Treasury. 204 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne That is not correct. 204 3.58 JSM Calare ALP 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr THOMAS BROWN Whe n the debate has reached a stage at which personal explanations and recriminations are called forth, it is about time that it was ended; and I do not propose to contribute very much to its length. During the earlier part of the discussion I heard from my side of the House some attempts at congratulating honorable members opposite, though it is true there was a certain strain of irony about the congratulations. However that may be, I do not propose to follow' the example then set, because from the attitude which honorable members opposite adopt, and more particularly from the looks they present, I should say they have hardly settled down to the new order . of affairs, or reached the stage at which congratulations are acceptable. But I feel disposed to offer a word of congratulation to the honorable member who is about to quit the position of Prime Minister—the leader of the party with which I ha.ve been associated ever since • I entered into Commonwealth politics. The people now learn that within the ranks of labour, are to be found gentlemen as capable of discharging the highest functions of administration as any who could be found outside the party, and that the destinies of the Commonwealth are just as safe in their hands as they could possibly be in the hands of others. 204 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr Chanter An d so is the marriage tie. 204 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr THOMAS BROWN Quit e so the- marriage tie is just as safe in the hands of the present Government as it could possibly be in the hands of their critics, who have endeavoured to make use ' of this cry about the marriage tie as a means of besmirching and defaming men who are very much better than themselves in this respect. I am glad that an opportunity has been given to the honorable member for Wide Bay, and those associated with him, to disclose what they are able to do ' as administrators; and' every unbiased man will admit that they have done much to place the public departments on a more stable footing than that on which they found them. Their critics, i f they are prepared to give credit where credit is due, must accord that meed of praise to them. I do not wish to lay any special blame on the late Postmaster-General, but the Post and Telegraph Department had drifted into a condition that was making it a by-word amongst the people; and the present Postmaster- General has had to adopt some veryunpopular methods to bring about a better state of affairs. He has not been afraid to do so; and I hope that those who succeed him will carry on the good work he has initiated, and, in a short time, remove any cause there may be for the complaints and abuse which have been hurled at the Department. Similar observations may be made as to the Defence Department. We have had no proper scheme of defence, and though we have been talking about a citizen soldiery, the forces have never been placed on a practical or satisfactory basis. Apparently the Administration has not had that sympathetic aid it deserves; but the present Minister has made a move in what I think will be regarded as the right direction. Then as to the White Australia legislation, the Fisher Government have signalized themselves by the extent to which they have unearthed and brought to light the various methods by which undesirable immigrants, and also, it may be said, opium, were being introduced. For their work in this connexion the Government have placed the Commonwealth under a debt of gratitude. In regard to the introduction of Asiatic labour, honorable members must adopt two alternatives as an explanation of the work done by the Government, The first is that, when the Chinese learnt that a Labour Government was in control, they thought it a good opportunity to send undesirable immigrants and also opium to Australia. If' that explanation lie not accepted, then the alternative is that the traffic in undesirable labour and opium had been going on more or less largely all the while, and it required a Labour Government to find it out and put a stop to it. Whatever may be the explanation, I think that every believer in the policy of a White Australia—ever y one desiring to see Australia thickly peopled with white races holding ideals and sympathies akin to his own—wil l concede that the Government has done good work in both these particulars. I wish to congratulate the Prime Minister on the substantial work he has done in the administration of his Department, and in initiating matters of policy. In the few weeks of the session that remained at his disposal, he lifted the Capital Site question from the ruck into which it had fallen, and remained for years, and enabled it to be satisfactorily dealt with. I trust that those who succeed the present Administration will continue his good work, and carry it to completion. Then, again, the great iron industry received substantial assistance at his hands by the passing of the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, and I trust that "oefore long Australia will be able to produce high class manufactures of metal from her crude ores. Still' another good work done by the present Government was that of giving to the public servants of the Commonwealth the common rights of citizenship enjoyed by the rest of the community— right s that had hitherto been denied them. The Prime Minister showed by his action that he had the courage to strike *out on new lines. I am sure that the public servants of the Commonwealth are men of intelligence and capacity, and that they will so use their newly acquired privileges that the incoming Government will not dare to attempt to take them from them. In- ' deed I feel sure, that the States will be compelled to follow in our wake, and that the public servants of the States will soon enjoy these larger measures of citizenship, and use them to the genera] welLbeing of Australia. In these directions the Government have done good work, which, as a member of the Labour Party,'I can heartily commend. Then,* again, they met the Parliament with a .policy that is a distinct advance upon and a departure from the policies hitherto submitted. There may be a difference of opinion as to whether it is in the best interests of the Commonwealth, but I am sure those who have considered it for themselves are satisfied that it is not merelv new, but distinctly Australian, and fitted to meet the requirements of an Australian community. The incoming Ministry will have to follow closely in the steps of the present Administration." It is significant that those who are opposed to the Government have not dared to attempt to displace them by questioning any of their acts of administration, or the policy which they have submitted to the country. They have adopted other methods knowing full well that for the time being,- at all events, the Labour Government have behind them a large volume of public opinion. They dare not run counter to that opinion, but 'they hope soon to win it back, and to make their footing more secure. I am not here for the special purpose of keeping any particular party in power, but I certainly recognise the importance of effective administration. I want to see good liberal reforms provided for in Commonwealth enactments— reforms which the Commonwealth urgently needs—an d I desire to see such measures effectively administered. If, as the result of the fusion of parties, that has taken place, a large section pf the Opposition have been converted from their life-long adherence to Conservative principles, and brought so far under the banner of Liberalism as to be ready to carry out these reforms, I for one shall not complain. I shall certainly do my best to bring about that result; but I question very much whether that is the object lying behind the movement. I am fearful that it is intended not to bring about liberal reforms, not to secure the passing of legislation thatwill benefit the whole community, and will not bend to special interests and privileges, but to keep up those special privileges, and to ibend the powers of legislation and of administration, as they have been bent in the past. For that reason, I sincerely regret that the Fisher Administration is to give place to a Ministry representing the fusion Of parties. However, by their acts. they must be judged, and I shall await .with interest a statement of the work they propose to do. I see before me a combination of parties and interests that hitherto have been vitally antagonistic. We have before us the extreme Coaservatives on the free-trade side sitting with the'Liberal or "good as a Labour man." We have, too, the extreme Conservative on the protectionist side sitting with the Liberal or " good as a Labour man." Then, again, we have still another party consisting of honorable members who, so far as I am aware, have never professed any sympathy with democratic aspirations or legislation. That party held the balance of power, when th'e Tariff was under consideration, and exercised it in the interesta of the wealthy section of the communitv. Whenever they were called upon to vote for an item which meant high protection, and at the same time would yield much revenue, they voted with the protectionists to carry it into law. On the pther hand, i f , by voting with the free-trade section, they could secure the passing of a large revenue producing item, and defeat the protectionists, they were quite prepared to do so. The result is that the present Tariff is one of the highest revenue producing Tariffs, and, therefore, is incompatible with any degree of protection or free-trade. Those who so devised it took good care that the burdens of its revenue-producing items were placed, not upon the shoulders of the particular section of the community that they represented, not upon the shoulders of those best able to bear taxation, but upon the shoulders of the starving men and women, the workers of the Commonwealth. I fear that that policy will be repeated- in connexion with this fusion, and that, instead of getting liberal reforms, as some honorable members on the other side hope, from the present combination, they will find themselves, as in the case of -the Tariff, the tools of that extremely conservative Opposition Corner; who are out to look after the interests of their own particular section, of' the community, as no doubt they are entitled to do. If they can use the democrats on that side of the House to further their interests, so much the worse for those democrats. I am very glad that we have reached a stage which I regard as an epoch-making one in the history of the Commonwealth and of Commonwealthpolitics. Our lines are now' diverging. In the division which was recently taken, and in the divisions to be taken, there will be found on the one side of the House those who are pledged up to the hilt to the democracy of Australia, those who have in their life-work outside and inside the House done something substantial for the democracy, and- on the other will be found from this time forward those who are opposed to generally beneficial reforms, and strive by legislation and administration to further the interests of the specially wealthy classes of the community. We have reached a position where we can have a straight-out fight, and the electors will not in the future, as in the past, be hoodwinked by side issues such as free-trade and protection, or the claims of candidates to be "as-good-as-. Labour-men." There will be the two issues presented to them of radical democracy and old-time Conservatism, and they will' be able to make, their choice. If they are wise in their day and generation they will not spend forty years wandering in the wilderness of inconclusive and. unsatisfactory legislation and administration, but will strike straight out for the land of promise. The sooner they make up their minds to attain that object, the sooner they will get there, and the democrats on this side of the House will do their level best to get them there, and keep them there. I wish to commend the Prime Minister, who is about to retire from office, for the good work he has done,-not only in the administration of the functions of government, but in keeping the party free in years gone by from any alliance, combination, or fusion that would submerge its identity, and prevent it from being the live fighting factor that it has been. In the years to come there will not be so much danger on that score as there was in years gone bv. We have heard recently about the negotiations that took place here for an alliance or combination of the Labour Party with others, and1 the House' probably realizes that that attempt, about which there has been so much bitter contention to-day, was not the first of its kind. There had been previous moves in that direction, and it took sturdy, strong men in the Labour movement to keep it free from those entanglements. It has been kept free, and to-day it goes forward on a mew line of progress. I think that in bringing that about those who have been engaged in this great struggle have realized the expectations of those who sent them here. We have now, as we had beifore, two parties in the House, but before we had them so confused by other issues that the electors were unable to distinguish them. To-day the electors can distinguish them. Thev find that under fhe compelling force of the growing labour movement those'whose opinions yesterday seemed to be as far apart as the poles, and who have called each other hard and bitter names, are to-day ranged under onebanner and under one leader. That banner is antilabour, and that leader is against the labour movement, however much he may deny it. 207 4.41 KNJ Maribyrnong Liberal 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I shall endeavour to keep as free as possible from the personalities that have so much degraded this debate, and to confine myself to facts. I am extremely sorry that the honorable member for Hume has left the Chamber, because I intended to direct his attention to the fact that he was not always so anxious about the future of the protective policy and the Protectionist Party as he appears to be at present. 1 shall show that he was prepared to enter into an alliance with a party containing a large number of free-tmders—no t freetraders who had agreed to a common platform and a common policy, but free-traders who claimed freedom of action on Tariff matters. 207 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney Are they on this side? 207 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The y were, and are now. I shall prove from documentary evidence that they wjere given freedom of action, not at a time when the Tariff had been settled, as the last speaker said, on the highest basis yet reached, but when there was in force a Tariff which was crippling the industries of Victoria. What was the honorable member for Hume's anxiety then ? He was prepared to enter into an alliance- 207 KVJ 0 0 STORRER, David Mr Storrer H e was in the same party, as the honorable member then. 207 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER It is a pity he is not in the same party now. It would be much better for him. 207 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence H e is too straight "for that. 207 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I think-his straightness, and his crookedness also, are recognised. He was prepared to enter into an alliance that provided that " the free-trade members of the Labour Party shall have perfect freedom of action to vote for or against any proposed reduction or increase of duty." The honorable member for Hume now objects to the' position taken up by the right honorable .member for East Sydney. He claims that protection is in imminent danger at a time when the highest Tariff that.has ever been placed upon the statute-book of Australia is the law of the land, and yet, long before this Tariff was even inaugurated, he was prepared to ally himself with the free-traders in 'the Labour Party, and to give them freedom to vote just as they liked upon any items submitted, in order that he might get into office. 207 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison Exactly , because he knew that the Tariff would be all right. 207 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER We knew that our Tariff would be all right. But we also knew that there were free-traders in the Labour Party who were prepared to make it all wrong. My honorable friend knows that. Yet the honorable member for Hume was prepared to enter into a compact with them. Here is a statement made by the honorable member for South Sydney, then leader of the Labour Party, as to the agreement entered into. Each member ivas to— decide for himself how far the particular circumstances prove necessity or the extent to which the proposal should be carried. The honorable member for Hume had absolutely no objection to enter into an alliance with honorable members opposite on terms giving the free-traders of that party a free hand uyjon the Tariff, when many of the industries of Victoria were positively being snuffed out in consequence of the duties in existence. 207 KVJ 0 0 STORRER, David Mr Storrer Th e Labour Party is not a free-trade partv 207 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Ther e are five freetraders in the present Ministry. 207 KVJ 0 0 STORRER, David Mr Storrer Who are they? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER There are the Prime Minister 208 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison He is not a freetrader. 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I supported the Kingston Tariff. I never stood as a tariffite at any time. I always stood as a Labourite. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER M y honorable friend is evading the question. Did he enter this Parliament as a free-trade labour man? 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher No. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Then how did he enter Parliament in regard to the fiscal question? 208 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford Let the honorable member look up the Prime Minister's votes upon axe-handles, and find out. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Oh , yes; when it was a matter of axe-handles or bananas, there were several of the free-traders opposite who gave protectionist votes. 208 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook The Prime Minister gave more free-trade, than protectionist votes in the first Parliament. We always looked upon him as one pf the, free-traders. 208 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook Hear , hear! 208 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr The DEPUTY SPEAKER I must ask honorable members to cease these "interjections. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I say again that the Prime Minister entered this Parliament as a free-trader. I say, also, that the Postmaster-General is a free-trader. The Minister of Defence is a free-trader. 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I have answered the honorable member, yet he continues to say the same thing. How can one deal with a man of that kind ? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Th e honorable gentleman has not answered me. 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher Le t the honorable member ask his leader. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER A labour man is " neither fish, nor flesh, nor good red herring." in regard to the Tariff. 208 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDougall Is the party to which the honorable member now belongs in favour of the new protection? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Wha t was the use of talking about the principle of the new protection until we had established the old protection ? Many of us on this side of the House were advocates of the application of the new protection long before some, of the members of the Labour Party came into the political arena. 208 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDougall Doe s the honorable member expect to get the new protection established by the votes of those on his own side of the House? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER We are quite as likely to get it from this side of the House as from the Labour Party, who, as I said before, are "neither fish, nor flesh, nor good red herring " on the fiscal issue. 208 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney The honorable member has only mentioned three members of the present Government who he says are freetraders. He said there were five. Who are the others? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I will mention the five. First, the Prime Minister says that he is neither protectionist nor free-trader. 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I shall take no further notice of the honorable member's statement. 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I know that the Prime Minister voted against us nine times out of ten on the first Tariff. I know also that the first Tariff was rendered largely inoperative from my point of view owing to free-trade reductions. 'At that time, the new protection was not on the platform of the Labour Party. They adopted it after they were forced by shees weight of public opinion, and when they began to recognise the importance of the fiscal question. But no one can deny that it was absolutely essential to establish protective duties of Customs before the principle of new protection could be applied. 208 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL Who first brought the new protection policy forward? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The Anti-Sweating League and the Protectionist Society of Victoria advocated the principle long before my honorable friend ever dreamed of entering the Federal Parliament. 208 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr Hall When? 208 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher In the early nineties 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER It was advocated when the Bill for the Federation of Australia was under discussion. 208 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDougall Is Mr. Walpole a member of the Anti-Sweating League? 208 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I know nothing about Mr. Walpole. The honorable member seems to know a good deal about him. My point is that the honorable member for Hume cannot logically or consistently find fault with a party such as this, on the lines on which it is organized, in view of the fact that he was prepared to» receive free-traders into his party, and to give them an absolutely free hand on the Tariff, although he knew that at that time Tariff reform was absolutely essential, whatever may be the position at the present time. Now I come to another point. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor The honorable member is absolutely wrongs His present party opposed protection, and he knows it. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The very term "new protection" was coined in my office. The honorable member for Yarra ought to know that. But he is a mere pigmy—a baby in politics. Until he came out as a candidate for Yarra, he knew nothing about the question. I venture to say that he never heard the term new protection until he came to Australia. The principle was advocated in this country before he came here. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor I was born in the country 209 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor The honorable niember simply means that' the phrase was coined in his office. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor The honorable member for Bourke got up in his place and opposed the new protection principle. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Both the phrase and the principle for which it stands were formulated there. I shall be very happy to show the Minister of Trade and Customs a document which sets out a resolution .carried at a joint conference of the Protectionist Association and the Trades Hall Couneil, in which the general principle was hid down. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor When? 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER During the time when the first Tariff was being introduced. That resolution laid down the principle that before Wages Boards or Arbitration Courts which are the instruments of what is known as the new protection—can be applied, the old protection must be secure. That resolution, as I 'say, was signed by Tepresentatives of the Trades Hall Council and of the Protectionist Association. I repeat that the phrase was coined in my office, it was advocated by the Age, and worked out as a practical scheme, long before my honorable friend dreamt of entering the political arena or took a part in political. matters. 209 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor The honorable member refers only to the phrase. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER And also to the principle. 209 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor No. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER In 1894, in Conjunction with the present leader of the Opposition, we were working at the establishment of the first Wages Boards ever introduced into Australia. 209 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney That is right 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER My honorable friend, the member for Melbourne knows that that is so. He was working with us. 209 L6Z 0 0 HALL, David Mr HALL Were the Wages Boards to apply only to the protected industries? 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Evidently the honorable member does not know how many Wages Boards there are in this State now. 209 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor That had nothing to do with protection. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER It had everything to do with protection. The principle was that these Boards should be applied to all protected trades. 209 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney That was the only thing that made protection decent. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor And it was a '.prinéiple that honorable members opposite opposed. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I am speaking wit1in the knowledge of men who have been associated with me for .years, and I say again that we have consistently advocated the application of the principle of the new protection, and did so long before the Labour Party associated L themselves with it. I say also that that principle is just as safe in our hands as in the hands of the Labour Party. The country knows that; and will confirm what we have done. 209 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor We hope that the country will have a chance of expressing its opinion. 209 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The country will have a chance in good time. If my honorable friend consulted the best interests of the country rather than what he considers to be the chance of snatching a party victory, he would not advocate a dissolution t the present time. 1 notice that the Prime Minister, on two occasions, has repeated, and that two leading members opposite have :said, that a dissolution should come now. A dissolution of this Parliament should. come when the busines of this Parliament is completed. It would be unjustifiable to cause the exoeme of an election -in two succeeding years. It would be unwarranted to appeal to the country when there is in this Parliament a party which is prepared to carry on the business, of the country. Not that I 6tear. a dissolution. but I say that the conduct of the business which this Parliament has to do is more important than a dissolution. I am sorry that the honorable member for Hume is not present. because I wish now to allude to a statement he made in reference to an attempted alliance or coalition between the Labour Party and a section of the late Deakin Government. 209 JUV 0 0 McWILLIAMS , William Mr McWilliams What is the good of it all? 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER -The good of it all is that I wish to bear testimony, from my own personal knowledge, to the fact that the honorable and learned member for Ballarat did not intend to take part in it; had signified his intention to retire from the leadershiji, and, in order that the business of the country might be carried on, had requested the honorable member for Hume to take the responsibility of leadership, and try to form a combination between the Labour Party and the liberals. 210 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley The honorable member knows that the honorable member for Hume in speaking was excited. 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Unfortunately, statements made in excited, moments are used on the public platform, falsified, exaggerated, and turned and twisted, very often in such a way as to appear to be exactly he opposite to what they are. The facts are that when the Post Office crisis arose there was at the back of it some of the very worst forces of Australia. That crisis was brought about because I determined that a public utility should not be made use of for gambling or immoral purposes. 210 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Is that why the honorable gentleman dropped the Telegraph Bill? 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER That is another of the honorable member's innuendoes. I never brought forward •a Telegraph Bill, and never dropped one. The honorable member is always making innuendoes carrying inferences which he knows to be untrue. I repeat that I know nothing whatever about a Telegraph Bills and never dropped one. I am prepared to admit that the honorable member for Yarra backed up my action; but I do say that my attempts to keep that public utility free from the operations of those engaged in gambling and immoral practices led to my being treated in a way that was simply brutish, and almost unbearable, and that the Post Office crisis was largely brought about through my action in regard to those particular matters. 210 JUV 0 0 McWILLIAMS , William Mr McWilliams And some of the men who supported the honorable gentleman most strongly were amongst those who at the time sat directly opposite to him. 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Let me say, also, that amongst those who supported me most strongly was the present Prime Iflnister. 210 KJ8 1 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison And the honorable gentleman is now associated with some of those who opposed him. 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Some of the most bitter opposition came from the man who was responsible for the crisis. I say that advisedly, and am prepared' to prove it. At that time the then Prime Minister said that the state of his health, and other circumstances, demanded that he should retire, and he handed over to Sir William Lyne authorit' to attethpt to effect an ailiance between the Labour Party and the then. Liberal Party. If there is now an alliance which my honorable friends opposite do not like, and which they believe will retard progress—though I do not think it will, for a moment—they and they alone are responsible for .it, because of their isolation, their selfishness, and their machine- Politics. 210 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley The honorable gentleman should not get excited. 210 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews Is their machine politics any worse than dictation by the Age newspaper? 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I will ask the honorable member for Darwin whether I am not right when I say that there is not a single member of the Labour Party whoP is not first responsible to the labour leagues,. and who must not first be indorsed by them before he can go to his constituency. 210 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence That is not correct 210 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley They all have to be selected 210 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney I have been selected, and I am proud of it. 210 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Who selects the honorable member's crowd? 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER No one selects me 210 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews They have to be selected by the Age 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The Age may support or oppose me, but it does not attempt to, say that I must sign a pledge to submit myself to the Age before I can go to my constituency. 210 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDougall Is not Joshua, the grogmaker, the political boss of the honorable member's party? 210 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I know nothing about Joshua or Moses either. I am discussing now the methods of the Labour Party. r said at a meeting in my constituency, anc1 I repeat the statement to-day,. that there is not a single member of the present Labour Ministry or Labour Party who is. not first responsible to an irresponsiblelabour league. 210 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor —What dbes the honor able gentleman mean by " first responsible. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER A member of the party must first be selected by a labour league. 211 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor Exactly 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The league may be comprised of zoo members, and there are many that have nothing like that membership, and it can compel the labour candidate to stand down, and he can never reach his constituency. 211 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor .—That is not true. It is utterly ridiculous. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER It is true in Victoria, and true in New South Wales. 211 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews There is nothing to be ashamed of in it in Victoria 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER There is nothing to be ashamed of in it, if an honorable member is prepared to be a machine politician, and not a democrat. 211 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews —I would rather be a machine politician than be subject to the Age newspaper, as the honorable member is. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Did not the honorable member have to stand down once? 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER No; I was never allied to the Labour Party as it is at present constituted. When I was associated with the labour leagues with Lormer and others there was in existence what was called the Progressive Liberal League; which was not allied to the labour unions. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor When was this? 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER Before the honorable member appeared in the political arena. He is merely repeating what he heard. He personally knows nothing about it. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor I do 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER The honorable membei .ought to know, that the present political labour machine came into force about the .time when the honorable member for Bourke was asked to sign the labour pledge, and when the honorable member for Richmond, in the State Parliament, refused to sign the labour pledge. He must know that that is what separated the honorable member for Richmond from the Labour Party 'in Victoria. I was allied with the Labour Party, just as the honorable member for Parramatta was, at a time when there was no pledge. I was not pledged to the party, but I received their support, and should be receiving their support to-day if thei were anything like loyal to. people who made Some sacrifices for them. I never signed any pledge. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Was not the honorable 'member asked to stand down for East Bourke Boroughs, and did not McKenzie and Warde get the selection in 1892 ? 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER There was no pledge in existence at the time. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Did the honorable member nominate for Last Bourke Boroughs in 1892? 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER I did; but I never signed the labour pledge. I never signed any pledge that I would not stand again if I was not selected. That is the matter with which I quarrel. As the honorable member for Ballarat stated at the Town Hall the other night, we have no objection to selection bl the party. Every party must make selections. Every party must decide what candidates it will support; but outside the Political Labour Party no party calling itself a democratic party says "You must first come to us. We have the right to decide whether you shall go to the constituency." The honorable member for Yarra knows that he cannot stand for a constituency until he is selected. Until he is selected, no member of the Labour Parry can go to the electors. 211 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney As a labour candidate. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER That is so. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor I think they will select m. I have run straight. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER That is another dirty innuendo. The honorable member is not the only member who has run straight. 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor .—The honorable member does not appear to like it. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER —I have no objection to it, but I will tell the honorable member what I do like. I like straightforward statements. I do not believe in dirty inferences. No man can say that I have not run straight throughout • my political career. I have run as straight as has the honorable member who makes the dirty insinuations. The honorable member for Yarra knows very -well that what I am stating is correct. He says that he will obtain the selection of the labour league. I hope that he will. But he admits there is a possibility that he may not: 211 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Hear, hear! 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr MAUGER ThenI ask, "To whom is he first responsible—to the league or to his constituency ?" I shall say no more at the present juncture,- but I wished to make clear the one or two points in connexion with the matter which has been disc'issed. 211 4.46 JWY Riverina ALP 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER I regret that the leader of the Opposition has made no reply to the statement read by the hoiorable member for Hume. 212 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I was making a personal explanation at flie time, and thus was prevented from doing so. 212 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER When certain negotiations were taking place for the combination that has now been effected, the honorable member for Ballarat stated that the Free-trade Party had agreed not to interfere with. the present Tariff in any shape or form, except so fax as the correction of anomalies was concerned. Now the right honorable member for East Sydney has published to the world a declaration that he made no such agreement with the honorable member. He asserts that he agreed not to interfere with the Tariff as it stood, but that le reserved to himself and the whole of his Free-trade Party a free hand in regard to the correction of anomalies. 212 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin YOU will find the explanation published in the newspapers tomorrow morning. It has been given to the press. 212 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER I think that the honorable member will find before long that he has associated himself with persons with whom it is necessary that all agreements should be put into writing, so that they may be produced when occasion arises. 212 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews The honorable member wants them to give a pledge? 212 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER Of course 212 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin This is what I read: No interference with the protectionist policy of the present Customs Tariff in rectifying anomalies "; and the reference of the right honorable member for East Sydney relates to the word "anomalies." He claims the right to exercise his judgment as to whether an anomaly is an alleged or a real one. 212 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER The right honorable member for East Sydney, in his published statement, declares that at the meeting of the two parties, he made it abundantly clear that the members gf his party were to have a perfectly free hand in dealing with all matters of Tariff concern rwhich did not involve an interference with the Tariff as it stands to-day. Where it is shown that, in the interests of Australian industsies, it is absolutely necessary to correct anomalies, he has proclaimed to the world that he reserves to himself and his party a perfectly free hand. If that is an alliance Which is satisfactory to honest protectionists I arm at a loss to understand it. 212 4.50 JWO Cook PROT 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS During his speech this afternoon the honorable member for Dailey referred to my connexion with an Orange lodge. I wish therefore to make one or two remarks in the calmest possible way, and without the introduction of the slightest feeling. Prior to the last election I was for some ten or twelve years a member of an Orange lodge. I joined that organization in my teens, when it was a religious, and not a political, body. When I was selected as a labour candidate prior to the Federal elections I was invited by the Orange lodges in my constituency to submit my name to them for selection. I refused to do SO. They selected the chairman of the Importers' Association of Sydney, Mr. Hindle. He was. my opponent, and they placed upon him the official seal of the organization. The honorable member for Dailey stated that I sought the support of the Orange lodges. 212 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks —Did not the honorable member go round to those lodges asking. for votes? 212 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts I did not. I do not charge the honorable member with having made a statement which he knows. to be untrue, but I do say that he has either been misinformed or has misunderstood his informant. At the opening meeting of my campaign, in. the Nèwtown' Town Hall, I was asked whether I would accept support from Orangemen., and I replied that I would accept support from any persons who chose to extend it to me upon the labour platform, irrespective of whether they were Orangemen or Roman Catholics. I wish to tell the honorable member for Dailey that I am prepared to deposit £5 with any honorable member whom he may choose to nominate, conditionally that he lodges a similar amount; and if it can be shown that I solicited support from any Orange organization. after my announcement or selection as a Federal labour candidate, I am prepared to forfeit the money to any hospital in New South Wales, the honorable member to do likewise if proved wrong. I regret to say that, although there were ministers of the Gospel who entered Orange lodges, knelt down, and placed their hands upon, the open Bible, and declared that they would not see a brother misrepresented, those very ministers subsequently went round my electorate misrepresenting me. Not only that, but members of the Orange institution have endeavoured to induce those of an opposite persuasion not to record their votes in my favour on the ground that I belonged to the same institution as themselves. I know that [ have received votes from democratic Orangemen as well as from other democratic parties. No organization could prevent some men from voting for labour candidates. It is that fact 1which largely influenced the Orange organization in its recent determination to make a show for democracy as against the hide-bound conservatism which it had previously supported. I hope that the institution will support democratic principles, although 1 beg leave to doubt it. The honorable member for Dailey also referred to the alleged tyranny of the Labour League. I desire to mention a little bit of tyranny on the part of some of the Orange lodges. During the State elections which followed the Federal elections the then Premier. of New South Wales, Sir J. H. Carruthers, introduced the Tariff issue. In my electorate his candidate running for the Camperdown State seat had a placard abopt io feet by io feet showing a large loaf and a little loaf, and calling upon the electors in that part of my constituency to vote against the Labour candidate because of some alleged sins I had committed fedei-allv in connexion with the Tariff. I received letters from the Labour leagues, and also frcim the candidate, asking me if I was going to cowardly stand by and see him maligned on account of votes I had given in the Federal Parliament, and I replied " No." I went from this House to place m,yself alongside that man on the platform, and the result was that we administered an overwhelming defeat to those opposed to our party. It happened that in this State election the gentleman who was selected as the anti-Labour candidate, Mr. Cleggi, had opposed me most bitterly at the Federal election. He was, and is, a member of the Orange lodge, and was the selected Orange candidate in the State fight for the Camperdown seat, when I took the platform for the Labour candidate. I did not inquire what denomination the latter be-, longed to. All I wanted to know was that he held the same political faith as I did. I left him to profess his religion at whatever shrine he thought best, as a matter concerning his own conscience only. When that State election was finished the Orange lodge in Camperdown laid a charge against me of having spoken against the selected representative of the Orange institution While I was sitting in this Chamber I received letters stating that a charge had been laid against me, and calling-upon me to attend to answer it. I replied, stating that I could not leave my place in Parliament to attend a committee meeting of the Orange lodge. They wanted me to attend on a Thursday night. That would have meant losing a whole week. I asked the lodge if they would fix the meeting fol Saturday night. They refused to accede to my request. In my absence they heard the charge against me, and found that I had spoken at Camperdown in Support of a Labour candidate against a selected Orange candidate, and I was forthwith expelled from the Orange institution. I have the whole of the correspondence, and, if necessary, can produce it. The honorable member for DaIley spoke of the tyranny of Labour leagues. If any one asks me whether I am prepared to accept that kind of tyranny and indorse it—I do not care whether it is known by the name of religion or not—I cannot indorse it. It is a monstrous thing that an attempt should be made in this free country to prevent a representative of the people in the National Parliament from defending his actions, his policy, and his party on the public platform. I, for one, will not tolerate it from any section of the community whatever. 213 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDougall Was the honorable member expelled from an Orange lodge because he voted for a Labour candidate? 213 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks Let those who treated the honorable member in that way answer him. He has forgotten a lot. This is only a one-sided statement. 213 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts If there is anything omitted or forgotten I would be glad if the honorable member would remind me by interjection or speech. The hor1orable member spoke with me on the subject, as also did several of the high officials in the Grand 'Lodge. They asked me if I would submit an appeal to the Grand Lodge against the decision of the branch lodge. The honorable iiember said he thought that if I liked to appeal I would be reinstated. 213 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks From the honorable member's statement I thought that he had been badly treated. 214 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts Exactly. Some leading members of the Orange institution said the same thing, and invited me to appeal, and I replied that I would not appeal, as I did not want to belong to them any longer. Since my election to a representative position I have acknowledged neither one party nor the other. I was elected on the Labour platform, and it is my political duty to give effect to it. I know no creeds either on one side or the other. J claim for myself the right to worship where I choose, and I am prepared to allowthat liberty to any one who holds different views. I feel no bitterness towards any man because he does not belong to the same church as I do, and I hope that he cherishes no such feeling against me. 214 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks —The honorable member is not asked to do so by the Orange institution. 214 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts Xo. I was not when I joined the institution, but unfortunately it includes a number of men whom one cannot please unless he is bitter against other men. 214 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks —The honorable member is not asked to do what he is stating. 214 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts It is not what one is asked to do, but what is actually done. From the honorable member's statement it might have appeared that 1 wished to introduce the question of one man's religion against another man's into the Labour movement. That I have always refused to do. I do not seek support on any other than political or ethical grounds. If a man is suffering in any way he should have a remedy, and should not be pitted against another man because of his religion. 214 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks The honorable member knows by his own experience that it is not done. 214 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts I know that the Chairman of the Importers' Association of New South Wales was selected on behalf of the Reid-Cook Party as a candidate against me. I also know that he had the official indorsement of the Orange insXitution, and that he is not regarded as a Democrat. I -know that he sought support from working men, and I know that working men in my constituency were asked, to vote against Labour proposals, against the nationalization of monopolies and other things- which if nationalized would confer a benefit upon them—not on the ground that the nationalization of monopolies was a good thing or a bad thing, but on the ground that one man vent to one church and another man went to another church. I have refused to associate these questions with the remedies for the troubles tinder which working men are suffering. I intend to continue to pursue that course. Unfounded statements have been made as to church influences, sporting influences, gambling influences, and vested interests of various kinds. I forgone will withstand any influence of this description, whether it comes from one section or from another. I am endeavouring to do justice to the masses, no matter what side they belong to, and to do my best to give effect to the policy I was sent here to carry out--to place the Labour platform on the statute-book of Australia. 214 5.3 KWL Yarra ALP Minister of Trade and Customs 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR It was not my intention to speak in this debate; in fact, I understood when we met this morning that in all probability we would adjourn in about five minutes, but I desire to reply to some remarks made by the honorable member for Maribyrnong, criticising the method of selection by a party which he says he has never belonged to. Apparently, persons who are outside an organization profess to know more about it than those who are inside it. Any person in the community can join the Labour organization, and after the expiration of three months in some States and of a longer period in other States—it is just according to the rules of the various States—he can vote in the selection of all candidates. That is the method of selection in our party. Now, what is the method of selection in the party led by the leader of the Opposition? Let me go back to the last election, when there was a selection for the neighbouring constituency of Batman, and its present representative decided to stand for election. A deputation from the first meeting came up and waited upon the honorable member for Bourke in his room, and were told that the candidate, Mr. Coon, would have to sign a pledge that he would stand down if he was not selected by them—an organization of two or three persons. 214 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook That is absolutely incorrect 214 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR And, what is more, I have seen a letter in the honorable member's handwriting -which I do not think he will deny, to Mr. Hodges, who proposed to stand as a candidate for Mernda, and in which it is stated that unless he agreed in writing to abide by the selection of the Ministry or the committee that was formed, he would have to stand down. Does the honorable member deny that? 215 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook Let the honorable member bring the letter and we will see. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member knows that he cannot deny that, and I can bring men who were present at the deputation which waited on him in connexion with the selection of a Liberal candidate for Batman. The honorable member for Maribyrhong talked about persons having the audacity to stand up here and speak about the method of selection by the Labour organization, where every member can take part in the work. What about the method of selection by two or three persons? 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I offered no objection to the selection. That is not the point. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR That is the objection which the honorable member and those of his party have all along urged against the labour organization. 215 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook —I have a press copy of the letter to which the honorable member has referred. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The press cops' of the letter sent to Mr. Hodges, who proposed to stand for Mernda, and afterwards stood for Kooyong? I am not sure that the original is not in my possession. It is useful to keel) letters like that, which show that the candidates of the Liberal Party were selected by a committee of two or three which was self-appointed, no one having an opportunity to criticise the manner in which its duties were performed. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger There is no comparison between the two methods. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member is right; there is no comparison. 211 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger We do not ask candidates to pledge themselves. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I think that the honorable member for Ballarat was chairman of the committee. No one knows whether it was a committee of two or three, or of more. Af any rate, no outsider had any " say " in the appointment of its members. The Labour organization requires intending candidates to submit their names for selection. A man who is not selected cannot carry the labour flag. 215 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin The organization says that he never shall. 215 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor NO; the decision is for one election only.. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Honorable members of the Liberal Party also require its candidates to submit themselves for selection. The honorable member for Batman knows this to be correct. I saw him walking up and down outside this building while his committee were inside deliberating as to his selection, and the honorable member for Bourke said on that occasion, "We do not know yet. Mr. Higgins is a member of our party, and you will not be allowed to oppose him." The deputation from the honorable member was told that he could not even submit himself as a. Liberal candidate for selection unless Mr. Higgins was made a Justice of the High Court, it being the wish of the Ministry of the day that Mr. Higgins should not be opposed. The honorable member for Batman had to sign a promise that he would not stand for the position, in order to become eligible for selection by the committee. 215 JOC 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor SO he signed a pledge 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Yes, that is so, according to the statements of those who were present at the meeting. 215 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Nothing of the kind. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Mr. Hodges had to do SO. 215 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Mr. Hodges did nothing of the kind. 215 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member for Batman will not den that he signed a labour pledge. I know that he did so on more than one occasion. He ran for a seat in the Collingwood Council without being selected to represent labour, and did not get in but when he put up next time, as a pledged labour man, lie got in. He signed to run as a labour candidate for Batman, but, at that time,.the Labour Party did not take the action which the honorable member thought it should take. I should not have risen, however, had it not been for the statements of the honorable member for Maribyrnong regarding the new protection. Incidentally I have shown that these ''pure merinoes," who say that they will not have anything to do with selection as it is practised by the. Labour organization, compel the candidates of their party to submit themselves for selection by committees not one-tenth as large as those of the Labour Party. 215 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger We have urged no objection to the system of selecting candidates. 216 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook —Has a Ministry no right to say who shall put up as its supporters? 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Only under a Tammany organization. The honorable member has not yet replied to the challenge which appeared in the Herald tlê other night. 216 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook I have replied, but my letter has not been published 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The Tammany organization is a self-appointed committee like this of the Liberal Party, with a " boss," who runs things as he pleases. 216 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley The "boss" of Tammany is picked by the outside councils. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR But outsiders have no "say" in the matter. The honorable member for Maribyrnong said that these things happened before I came to Australia, forgetting, or perhaps not knowing, that I was born here. I may have been absent in America or England when he stood as a Labour candidate under the organization which preceded the present Labour organization. 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I was not then asked for a pledge of any description. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Those who determined that a pledge must be required of Labour candidates built a lot better than they knew, as the events of the last few days have shown. Can the honorable member say that he has remained true to his election pledges, whilst sitting beside the honorable member for Flinders? One of them must have broken his election pledges, unless the honorable member for Flinders has come along marvellously. 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I hope that he has 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR So do I; but the honorable member does not believe that he has. Can they remain true to their pledges and sit- side by side, banded together solely to turn the Labour Party out of office? Those who framed the Labour organization did better work than they anticinated when they decided that written pledges should be required from candidates on the platform which they shquld support if they were elected, and that meetings of the party should decide what action should be taken by it on any plank of the platform. The honorable member for Maribyrnong was elected as a protectionist, and so was the honorable member for Grampians. Both were chosen by the same newspaper. 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —I was not chosen by the newspaper. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member was on the ticket of a newspaper as a protectionist, and so was the honorable member for Grampians; but I was not, as I was supposed to be weak on the question of protection, though I leave it to the honorable member for Bourke to say who gave more votes for protection when the Tariff was under consideration, the honorable member for Grampians 0r myself. There is some doubt as to who invented the phrase "new protection," but the honorable member for Maribyrnong claims that his party originated the ideas which it covers. If so, why did they take no steps to give effect to them, action being first taken in that direction by Senator Pearce? 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger The introduction of Wages Boards was a much earlier application of new protection. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Does the honorable member say that Wages Boards are the beginning and end of the new protection principle? Will he not say that new protection means the providing, by means of an Act of Parliament, that the employers in protected trades shall be compelled to pay fair wages to their workmen? Does he say that in all protected industries fair wages are paid to-day under the WagesBoards? 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger It does not matter about the instrument, so long as we accomplish the object. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Of course, I admit— 216 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook Nothing has been more successful than the Wages Boards. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member has never sat as a delegate on a Wages Board, or he would know that one delegate after another has been dismissed. As the honorable member for Maribyrnong is aware, every representative of the first Butchers Wages Board was dismissed for taking part. 216 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —That was an exceptional case. 216 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook —And we deplore it a much as any one. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR What guarantee is there that these men shall have any protection from their employers ? 216 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook I say that so far, the Wages Boards are the most successful of any portion of the new protection. 216 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR And I say that the Wages Boards do not touch the fringe of the new protection ; and after all, I spe,'k with as much knowledge of the industrial conditions of the community as does the honorable member. 217 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook But not more; I served my time to a trade, and that is, perhaps, what the Minister of Customs never did. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I say that the first distinctive step, so far as this Parliament was concerned, in connexion with new protection, was taken by a member of the Labour Party; that the second was taken by Senator Findley in regard to an Excise duty on spirits; and that the third was taken by the present Prime Minister and the Minister of External Affairs in connexion with the Harvester Excise. I remember that when the honorable member for Maranoa asked either the honorable member for Ballarat, as Prime Minister, or the honorable member for Hume, as Minister of Customs, whether there would be introduced Excise provisions so far as the workers were concerned, the honorable member for Bourke exclaimed, "What, make our people here pay and allow the importers to go scot free? Does the honorable member .for Bourke not remember asking the question in op. 'position to the new protection ? 217 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook I do not know anything about it. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR But the honorable member cannot deny my statement. 217 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook I do not know anything at all about it. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR The honorable member's words can be found in Hansard. When 'the honorable member for Maribyrnong was speaking, about what I do not remember, just now, I interjected, " Like you did the Telegraph Bill." The honorable mem- 'her for Ballarat will remember that a Bill was introduced making some alteration in le telegraph rates, and that at that time 'the use of telephones for betting purposes 'had been prohibited—a course to which I -do not object. But when some of us expressed a desire to have a provision in the Bill then before the House, prohibiting the -use of telegraphs for iThe same purpose, the 'Government dropped the Bill, and it has not been heard of from that day to this. I do not think that the honorable member for Maribyrnong was Postmaster-General at the lime. 217 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I know nothing of the matter, and never heard of it until now. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I think it was when the 'honorable member for Eden-Monaro was Postmaster-General; but, at any rate, the honorable member for Maribyrnong was a -member of the Ministry. 217 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger NO; it was previous to my becoming a member of the Government. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR But the honorable member remembers the occurrence? 217 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —NO; as I said before, this is the first time I have heard of it. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR At any rate, the Bill was dropped, and I remember the occasion very well, because I was one who voted for placing the telegraphs add telephones on the same basis in this connexion. I should not have spoken in this debate, but for the remarks made by the honorable member for Maribyrnong in regard to the method of selection of our party. I desire to place on record what I know of the method of the Labour Party and that of the party to which the honorable member belongs; and I contend that our method is infinitely more democratic, and results in a better expression of opinion by the people. 217 5.21 K5J Batman PROT 0 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON As the Minister of Trade and Customs has mentioned my name, I desire to say that at no time did I sign any document to the effect that I would stand down" at the last election if not selected. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor I did not say the honorable member did. 217 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON The Minister said that I signed a document to the effect that, in the event of my not being selected by the Ministry, I would "stand down"; and I have to say that I was never asked to sign, and never did sign, any such document presented by the Ministry, or any other body or person. The honorable gentleman also said that, at one time, I stood as a candidate for the Collingwood City Council, as one not a Labour man, and was defeated; but that, on the second occasion, when I signed the platform of the Labour Party, I was returned. Let me tell the Minister that I never signed the platform. 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Did the honorable member never sign the Labour pledge? 217 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON No; not as a Labour candidate for the Collingwood Council; and, if he can produce any pledge that I have signed, I am prepared— 217 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor TO resign? 217 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON Yes, to resign straight away. I was never asked to sign the platform, and I never announced myself as a Labour candidate for the council. If the honorable member can produce any document showing that I was a Labour candidate, I shall take the step I have stated. What does the honorable gentleman desire to infer? The very gentleman, Mr. Edward Lewis, who waited on the Government, in regard to my selection, is now a representative at the Trades Hall. He attended as a delegate at the conference, and came to the Minister asking for support, heading the deputation; and he is the president of the league. Is that the gentleman who gave the Minister the information that I was asked to sign the platform? 218 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor —No; it is another gentleman. 218 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts —HOW does the honorable member for Batman like his present company? 218 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON I am in the right company, behind the gentleman I was sent here to support. Ought I to be on the other side? 218 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas No 218 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON The honorable member says " No," and I shall try to prove that there is good reason for my not being there. There is a party in power to-day without any fiscal policy. The present Prime Minister, in October last, boasted that his patty was the only party that came into the House without a fiscal belief. 218 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts We are, every man of us. pledged to new protection. 218 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON .—I have stated what the Prime Minister said in October. When I asked the Prime Minister in this House, to declare the policy of the Government on the scal question, he said he would do so at the proper time. The proper time was at Gympie; but what he said there was that, rightly or wrongly, the Federal Parliament had declared for protection, and that, so far as his Ministry were concerned, they had not declared for protection at all. Why should I sit behind a Ministry composed of fiscal atheists? I was not sent here fox that purpose. 218 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas NO one that I know of is complaining that the honorable member does not sit behind the Ministry. 218 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON The honorable member for Barrier, when the proposed duties on mining machinery were before us, made a strong plea for the poor shareholders in the Broken Hill mines, declaring that if they were imposed they would not be able to pay their calls. 218 K8L 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas And the honorable member is now sitting behind the honorable member for Kooyong, Mr. Knox. 218 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON No, I am sitting behind the honorable member for Ballarat, whom the honorable member for Darwin has described as the natural Prime Minister of Australia. I am asked to support a Ministry, the members of which might do as they pleased with the Tariff, as evidenced by the fact that the honorable member for Cook took twenty-four hours to make up. his mind whether he should vote for a certain duty, and finally voted for its reduction. The Attorney-General during this. debate has made an attack upon the present leader of the Opposition. Only a few weeks ago I heard the honorable member deliver at Randwick a speech, in which he declared that between the Deakin party and his own there was everything in common. To-day we are told that they have nothing in common, and, according to the honorable member, there is nothing too bad t be said of the leader of the Opposition. Why this sudden change? Speaking at Randwick the Attorney-General declared that the honorable member for Ballarat, and his party would not go back on the Labour Ministry ;- but on the very night that he made that statement a member of the Deakin party had thirteen Labour candidates nominated in opposition to him. Is it reasonable to expect an honorable member in such circumstances to stand by the party? I am expected to be loyal t0 the present Government, but I am loyal to. my constituents, and to them alone. I am here to assist in passing legislation that I believe will be in the best interests of the people. Is it reasonable that I should be asked to support a Ministry composed of free-traders such as the Attorney-General, the Minister of Home Affairs, the Postmaster-General, the Minister of Defence, and also the Minister of External Affairs? Honorable members may smile when I refer in this way to the Minister of External Affairs, but I venture to say that art examination of the records will show that when the Tariff was before us he voted forfree- trade more often than he voted for protection. Did not the honorary Minister charge his own party with having changed a protectionist Tariff, as introduced by the Deakin Ministry, into a revenue Tariff?' That being so, what does he now propose to do? The Prime Minister has said nothing as to the intentions of the Government regarding the fiscal question. He has. not fulfilled his promise to make a statement in that regard, and I should like him now to say whether the Ministry have decided to adopt a protectionist or a freetrade policy. I am here to support the policy of protection. 219 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster The honorable member vi1i have a great chance over there. 219 K5J 1 0 COON, Jabez Mr COON I think that I shall have .a far better chance of doing so behind a protectionist leader than I should have, if I sat behind a fiscal atheist. That being so, I make no apology for the vote I gave yesterday. It was in accordance with my pledges, and I do not doubt that the future of Australia will be perfectly safe if intrusted to the honorable member who I believe in the very near future will occupy the position of Prime Minister. 219 5.31 KIN Hume IND 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE I wish to make a personal explanation. The right honorable member for Swan a few minutes ago introduced the name of the Under-Secretary to the Treasury, in his effort to refute an assertion I had made re-. carding the burning of some copies of a Banking Bill. I have visited the Treasury and have seen the Under-Secretary, who ays that he is not certain whether the right honorable nember on the occasion referred to gave an instruction that the docu- .ments should be CC burnt," but that an instruction was certainly given to suppress them. He remembers that I directed that they should not be destroyed, but that one or two copies should be sent to me. There is a memorandum on the file that one copy, if not two, should be forwarded to me. The Under-Secretary to the Treasury suggested to me, he says, that the documents should not be destroyed, and he put them together and deposited them in the strong room, where they have since remained. He supports my statement, in so far as he says that- the documents were to be suppressed. T. said that I was present when I heard the instruction given that they should be burnt, but the Under-Secretary is not prepared to say whether, the word "burnt" was actually used, although he knows that they were to be suppressed. 219 5.33 KNH Melbourne Ports ALP 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS So much has. been said regarding the taking of a pledge that one would almost think it a crime to take one. Is there any Rechabite who so regards the taking of the pledge of his order? I am proud àf the pledge I have taken, and, although I regret fo have to make an personal references, I wish to ask the honorable member for Batman if it is not a fact that during his membership of the Labour Party he signed a pledge. The honorable member does not reply, and I do not wish to press him for an answer. The honorable membei for Maribvrnong said that his objection to our system of selection is that a candidate has to sign a pledge that if he is not selected he will not oppose the selected candidate. 219 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger My objection is that a man who has held oce as a Minister— who has been elected by thousands of people—must, before he goes back to the people, run the gauntlet of a clique, a machine, or a small body of men. 219 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS I would ask the honorable member to point' to one member of the Labour Party who has lost his seat at the selection of candidates. 219 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —Yes; I could give the honorable member the name privately. 219 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS I have been in the Labour mo'vernent for years, and have never known a man yet who held a seat and lost it at the selection of candidates. I know of one man 1llo held two-fifths of a seat, but lost it to another man who represented portion of another electorate. 219 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook I could give the honorable member more than one instance in Victoria. 219 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS It would be news to me. Many honorable members have made a lot out of the statement that the great protectionist movement and the Tariff are in danger, but I believe there are enough protectionists in the House to insure the safety of protection, and that we have enough protectionists even to increase the Tariff when we get an opportunity. There are also men who came into the House as free-traders, but who have admitted publicly and privately that the fiscal issue is dead, and that protection is the accepted and established policy of Australia. The Argus newspaper itself has admitted it, so that I have no fear on that score, whatever Ministry is formed. But what I do fear from what is taking place now is that the democracy of Australia will be in danger when the fusion party come over from the other side to take the Treasury bench. I ask honorable members to recall the splendid leading article that appeared in the Age of the 15th of this month, warning the honorable member for Ballarat that the course he was pursuing was a treacherous course to the democracy, and that he would not be able to perpetrate what he was endeavouring to do, because such sturdy democrats as the honorable member for Maribyrnong, the honorable member for Bourke, the honorable member for Gippsland, the honorable member for Batman, the honorable member for Htime, the honorable member for Laanecoorie, and the honorable member for Riverina, would prevent him from selling the democracy to the crusted Conservatives in the corner. 220 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin That was when I proposed to stand out. 220 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS A short fortnight ago, the Age uttered that warning, and more than a warning, to the honorable member for Ballarat, yet in the Age of yesterday we saw the names of the new Liberal Cabinet, and the new Liberal Party. In that new party, arrayed beside the honorable member for Ballarat, and the honorable member for Maribyrnoi,ig, were the honorable members for Parraniatta, Bendigo—a great democrat—and Fawkner a gentleman who •makes no pretence of democracy, and who is chairman of the most conservative organization in Australia, the Employers' Federation. I ask the democrats of Australia, much as they admire the honorable member for Fawkner, as an individual, whether they expect one atom of democratic feeling or action from him. I would ask the members of the late Deakin party, as they were known then, particularly the honorable members for Maribyrnong, Bourke, Batman, and Laanecoorie, whether they ..dare go before their constituents, and say that they are one and all united with the honorable member for Flinders. Those four honorable members will look well in the eyes of the democrats of their constituencies sitting cheek by jowl with the honorable members for Flinders, Grampians, Corangarnite, Echuca, Bencligo, Koovong, Fawkner, and In di—a.l I grand democrats in the new Liberal Party. I have hundreds of times stated on the platform that there was no real, difference —and I have been taken to task for it by friends of honorable members sitting opposite— between the honorable members for Maribyrnong and Bourke. for instance, and the honorable member for Flinders, because, while they were not pledged to sun- Port democratic legislation, the time would come when they would get away from it. They have proved the truth of our assertion. I have heard of missionaries going to the Solomon Islands to he eaten, or to China to be killed, and I suppose those honorable members have gone as missionaries into the ranks of the Conservatives with a strong determination to convert those gentlemen to democracy. I can say with perfect truth that the Opposition corner and fhe Opposition itself, ,before the remnant of the Deakin party joined it, did not contain one member with a shred of democracy about him. In spite of all that the sturdy democrats enumerated by the Age, on the 15th inst., can do, and in spite of the smiling face that they put upon the position which they are now occupying, the)' know well that they are no more at home over there than I. would be. The present situation has been brought about because the Labour organization has openly admitted that it will nominate pledged Labour men against those honorable members. But this is not the first time that that has been done. It was done at the last erection. The fight was fought, and some won, and some lost. But when the House met, there was no embittered feeling on the part of Labour members towards the members of the Deakin party. Although we had been engaged in strife at the .elections, almost immediately after Ave met here we got into one line of action. Strongly as the honorable members who have crossed the floor have fought the Labour movement in the past, and succeeded, they never yet made such a mistake, and never played somuch into our hands as they have now done by going over to the other side. As surely as we stand here to-day, their action will redound to the benefit of the Labour movement. I believe that the influence of the Opposition Corner Party will be detrimental to the genuine democrats who are supportingthe honorable member for Ballarat. Their influence will more than counterbalance that of the democratic members in formulating the policy of the incoming Government. No doubt the members of the Corner Party believe that their policy would be best for the country. I believe firmly that they think that it is to the interest of Australia. that a few should be better off than the many. It is inevitable that the influence of those honorable members should affect the sincere democrats. who sit opposite. Personally, I do not consider that our party has anything to complain of in the present situation. When it was announced that our party could no longer support the Government of the honorable member for Ballarat last year, r never in my most sanguine moments. dreamt that we should occupy the Government benches. I thought that . we should' be in direct Opposition. I knew that we were a minority, and considered that the Opposition side was our true place in this House., But events shaped themselves differently. Why? Because those who are supporting the honorable member for Ballarat to-day did not support him in his hour of need. I have heard some of them sa.y a hundred times that the only objection they had to the Deakin Government was that it was kept in power by the Labour Party. They say now that they. knew all along that they could get good legislation from the Deakin Party, but that that legislation was permitted to be moulded to too great an extent by the Labour Party. Yet when we announced to the late Government that we could no longer support them the then Opposition made no move to support the Deaki Government. When. a division took place, a few moved in their seats, but the honorable member for Ballarat told them to stay where they were. That was the time when they should have crossed the floor. But they did not, because they felt that there were men occupying seats in that Cabinet which they themselves ought to have, and they said—" We will turn, the Government out first and there will be a reconstruction afterwards." That is what is taking place now. We shall attain our true position in the House as a direct Opposition. Being, as we are, a compact body of men, who attend to their legislative work - do not let honorable members forget that— the incoming Government will have such an anxious tii:4 in keeping a House that if we do not secure a dissolution now, as I think we ought to do, the dissolution will undoubtedly come in a very short time. I believe that' when we come back there will be just as many parties in the House as there are now. That is only natural. The people themselves are divided on political issues, and this Parliament ought to be a true reflex of what the people think. The party supporting the honorable member for Ballarat will come back with just as many sections in it as there are to-day. There is only one party in which there are no sections, and that is the Labour Party. The Opposition Corner Party must have contained about a dozen sections, because they could never select a leader. There will always be different parties in a country where there are many shades of political thought. The honorable member for Ballarat may think that he has behind him a party of cohesion, but I have my doubts as to whether he is of that opinion, and am satisfied that he will find that he has such a restive team in hand that his legi1ation cannot be democratic. His supporters will take good care of that. Does he suppose that the honorable members for Fajwkner, Flinders Corangamite, and Echuca want democratic legislation, or legislation beneficial to the workers ? If he does not suppose that, he should not have agreed to a coalition, and if he does suppose it it is like expecting water to flow uphill. The interests of these men are against advanced legislation. It is said that "evil communications corrupt good manners." I must express the hope that such will not be the case with the democrats who support the honorable member for Ballarat. 221 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger No danger 221 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS Our party has nothing to growl at in what has happened. But, personally, I regret to say that in the future I can never look upon the honorable member for Ballarat in the same light as I have done in the past. He will admit that I always have meted out to him asmuch assistance as I could render, and have repeatedly expressed my admiration for him personally. r am sorry to say— although he may not care—that in future I shall be unable to extend that consideration to him that I have hitherto given. When I heard the honorable member for Ballarat hurl defiane at honorable members in the opposite corner, when they weregoading and jeering at him, I felt that he would always be found adopting that attitude towards those honorable members. When I heard him tell the members of the Corner Party to sit where they were, and that he did not want their support, I felt that he would look for democratic support. 221 KGZ WA Party 0 0 HEDGES , William Noah Mr Hedges ThiS is all in the honorable member's imagination. He is the only man who heard it. 221 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford Many heard it 221 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS There are none so deaf as the willing deaf. However, a change has come about, and we must accept things as they are. If we get any good legislation from the mu/turn in parvo on the opposite side, I shall he very pleased. While I shall always give my voice and vote to break down that combination, and' will bend my energies to oust Victorian representatives included in it, in order to strengthen the Labour Party. I still shall, claim the right, should they bring forward democratic legislation, to support it. In saying that, I give a promise which I know I shall never have to keep, because I feel certain that a measure that will satisfy a democrat will never satisfy honorable members who are to-day behin the honorable member for Ballarat. In conclusion, I wish again to say that, come what may, the Labour Party gains. If we retained our position on the Government side of the House, it would be for the benefit of the people of Australia, and I contend also that what has taken place will necessarily be of advantage to the party, and to the people. 222 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I desire to make a personal explanation, and will not detain the House for many minutes. The Minister of Trade and Customs made a very serious allegation with respect to the Government of which I was a member dropping the Telegraph Rates Bill, because it contained a clause making provision for the prohibition of telegrams as well as letters. As a matter of fact, the Bill was never dropped, the clause I refer to was never carried, and the Minister of Trade and Customs voted against the clause being carried. I refer honorable members to page 4158 of Hansard for the session of 1901-2. I find that Mr. Clarke, the then member for Cowper said- As indicated by the Attorney-General last night, this clause presents a suitable opportunity for submitting an amendment which I then indicated. The Committee have already laid down the principle very emphatically that the Post Office is not to be -used for letters relating to gambling, and I desire honorable members to show their consistency by adopting an amendment which will have the effect of intercepting telegrams relating to gambling. I move— That after the word " telegrams" the following words be inserted— 222 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor That is not the Bill to which I referred. I was referring to a Bill in connection with which the honorable member for Kalgoorlie took action. 222 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —The same principle exactly was involved in this case. The honorable member for Yarra voted against such a clause being inserted in the Bill. 222 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor Did I vote on the same side as the honorable member? 222 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Yes, the honorable member did. I gave my reasons, and he gave his—that it was really moved to defeat the object we had in view. We were agreed on that occasion. The Minister of Trade and Customs made it appear by his- interjection when I was speaking that I dropped the Bill, and deserted the principle. 222 6.0 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER We have had an unusually long discussion in a situation like the present. I have tried my best to exercise restraint and patience, I am afraid with very little result. I did not, of course, anticipate that the leader of the Opposition would make such a lengthy statement as he did this morning. 222 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I did not occupy half-anhour. 222 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I do not complain, but I did not anticipate that the honorable gentleman would consider so long a statement necessary. Nor did I anticipate that complaint would be made that I failed to take sufficient notice of published criticisms of the Gympie policy. 222 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin NO, the objection was that, not having read them, the honorable gentleman retorted on me as if he had read them. 222 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I read the honorable gentleman's Sydney speech in more than one newspaper. He will admit that I am doing him no injustice when I say that, as reported, the speech was not fit for discussion. I referred to some passages which I said would kill the reputation of the youngest member of the House if it rested upon them. As a precaution, I took the .Age report and compared it with other reports of the speech, but some of the statements appearing in the report are so absurd that it would be ridiculous to quote them. To give an instance of how absurd they really are, I quote one passage, and will quote as many more as the honorable gentleman - pleases, if he thinks the passage I select is not a fair one. He is reported to have said— Where was the financial balance-sheet? They had not seen it. It was not in the Prime Minister's speech. He was afraid they would only find it at the general election. The Prime Minister said it would not be safe to estimate revenue at over LII,000,000 for some years to come, and that would include Post Office revenue which would have to be spent on the Post Office; and it also included the three-fourths of the Customs which had to be returned to the States. and so on. Another passage containing a reference to old-age pensions was even more ridiculous than that I have quoted. 222 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin TWO or three statements are run into one in that passage. 222 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER There are other inaccuracies which I do not wish to quote A great deal has been said during this discussion about parties, the advantage that one party has over another, and the special independence of some particular part\' with respect to the Labour Party. I stated here not very long ago that I belonged to a party the members of which, when they become candidates, accept a platform drawn up by a conference, and agree to advocate and support it before the electors. I find, after the debate we have had that we have narrowed down the features objected to in the Labour Party's method of selection of candidates to the fact that 'they must agree to the policy before they become candidates. That now appears to be the only objection. Does the honorable member for Maribyrnong say that a member of Parliament continues to be a member of Parliament after a dissolution? 223 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Certainly,; he is responsible to those who elected him. 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Any one who knows anything of the subject must be aware that upon a dissolution a member loses his title as a member of Parliament. Every journalist drops the title usually given to q member of Parliament immediatel' a dissolution occurs. Those who were members of Parliament become after a dissolution merely members Of the community, who have to seek the suffrages of the people, as every other member of the community desiring to enter Parliament must do. What right has any one to claim that he should be allowed to pass from Parliament to Parliament without the consent of the people? 223 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger The honorable gentleman would remain Prime Minister after a dissolution until such time as he was either rejected or re-elected. 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Surely the honorable member is able to distinguih between a Ministerial and a representative position? 223 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger That is all the more reason why a person should not have to submit to any other tribunal. 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER The honorable member must know that a Minister does not occupy the same position as a private member of Parliament. 223 K4I 0 0 COOK, James Mr Hume Cook But if the honorable gentleman is not selected, he cannot be elected. 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER It may be news for the honorable member for Bourke, but 'I' can infornñ him that on more than one occasion I have been asked not to go to a selection ballot, and in every instance I have insisted upon doing so. I did so upon principle. I believe in the principle underlying the selection of Labour candidates, and it is on that account that I am here to-clay I am not afraid of the leagues. Of course, I cannot speak from personal experience of what takes place in States other than that of Queensland. But I know that amongst the wellorganized parties in the Imperial Parliament, immediately an honorable member says anything against his leader, he is struck off the list. A mere casual reference is sufficient to bring about that result. 223 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger The Prime Minister does not advocate that? 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Xo, nor do I say to the people of Australia that it is a good thing for parliamentary parties to lead in this matter. They are conservative, and there is a danger that they may become little organizations, whose members imagine that they are the salt of the earth, and who altogether forget the great principles of democracy. Victorian Labour representatives are well able to defend their own case. I can speak only of the position in my own State, and .I say that some of the finest men into whom God ever breathed the breath of life are associated with the Labour movement in Queensland. 223 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger T1eV are to be found in every other movement. 223 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I am not afraid of the taunts in which honorable members opposite have indulged. I recollect what occurred in my own State in 1890. When the leaders of the Liberal andConservative Parties found that the Labour movement was gathering impetus, they - came together as one man. They coalesced against the rising democratic tide. Upon that occasion, the father of the honorable member for Darling Downs, with one or two others, dclined to join the coalition, and that very circumstance, not only protected him from attack, but gave him, for the whole of his life, the warm sympathy of the radical voters in that part of the State. Nor do I forget what happened in 1:899, when the first Labour Ministry in the world took office in Queensland, merely for the purpose of demonstrating that they were quite capable of discharging all the functions of government. Immediately they did so, the so-called Liberal Party coalesced with the Conservative Party., and meted out to the Ministry the same treatment that we received at the hands of honorable members opposite yesterday. Before they were given an opportunity of putting their programme before the country, a motion was submitted to take the control of business out of their hands. But did that kill the Labour Party ? Certainly not. Will the action of honorable members opposite on the present occasion kill the Labour Party? A thousand times " No." It will not even give it a set-back. Some honorable members have loudly proclaimed what they have done for the people from time to time. I hope that any services which they may have rendered them will be amply rewarded. But, simply because we may have rendered them good service, we are not to assume that we have an inherent right to represent them for all time. Quite the contrary. For an honorable member to say that he will do this or that, despite the organizations is simply to say something which is absolutely opposed to all historicat teaching in regard to parties. I am glad to have honorable members before me who know all about the Labour movement. I wish to say that a member of the Labour Party is not bound in any way to an organization between Parliament. He is merely bound to the platform which he signs, and which he must advocate upon the hustings before he is elected. Between Parliaments, the organizations cannot in any way whatever dictate to a member of the Labour Party who is representing a constituency. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger -There is no occasion for them to do so. He is tied tightly enough before that. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER In what way is he tied tightly? He is tied only to the principles which he advocated upon the public platform, and which he has promised the electors to support. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger .—He can be turned out without any allusion whatever to those principles. 224 KWL 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor There never has been a case in which a man has been so turned out. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Yes, there has. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Do not let us raise a new issue. Between the Labour member and the electors no authority intervenes. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger A Labour member cannot go' to the electors without the sanction of such• an authority. The Prime Minister himself has just said so. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER The honorable member does not touch the point at issue. He seems to be desirous of insinuating that some outside power can exercise control or influence over a Labour member in Parliament 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Unquestionably. He is tied to outside organizations. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER No grosser and more wilful misrepresentation has ever been made here. 224 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts —The honorable member ought to have a bit more respect for himself. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I had not the remotest idea that the honorable member for Manbyrnong wks capable of making such a statement. 224 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts He will go and take a Sunday-school class after that. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER It is a repetition of the misstatements that have frequently been made by persons who are not familiar with the facts. The honorable member's statement is not correct. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger What is not correct? 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER The statement that from the time a Labour candidate is elected he is not absolutely free from control and influence by outside organizations. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Within the bounds of that programme, and until the next election. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Thàt is not what the honorable member said previously. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger Undoubtedly, it is what I said. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER That is sufficient for my purpose. It is admitted then that a Labour member must advocate the principles in which, as a candidate, he declared his belief. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger He can do all that, and yet be rejected without any reason whatever, and can be denied the opportunity of going before his constituents. 224 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I have no objection to that complaint at all. I shall come to the crux of the question in a moment. Every organized party seeks to reduce the number of its candidates to a minimum, with a view t0 insuring their success. If the respective parties run four or five candidates, they go to certain defeat. What methods do 'other parties adopt to eliminate the least fit and to nominate one man? We have a well-recognised system. The honorable member may or may not admit that. In my opinion, it is the best system extant today to preserve the integrity and forward the interests of a political party. 224 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger —The worst thing is that it is a system. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER If' the honorable member takes up that point, let him take it up and leave it. He does not hear the members of our party saying that the party led by the honorable member for Ballarat are immoral. 225 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I never said that. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER It has been said of us. 225 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger What I say is, that the machine is capable of being used for unmoral purposes. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER If that is the deliberate opinion of the honorable gentleman, I shall not further discuss the matter. After all this explanation, it is useless to discuss the question if such statements are to be made. The honorable member for Ballarat has not been free from blame in speaking about this machine and that machine. I am not denying that he believes that it may have a wrong influence and not the best influence in the public interest. That is a legitimate position for any one to take up; but it should have some relation to a policy. 1 believe in the system. It may have its faults; we would like to improve it. Every third year we have a duly elected conference. On the last occasion, members of the Federal Parliament formed an absolute majority of the Inter-State Conference. They drew tip the platform, and then my honorable friends want to tell the public that we are to do absolutely what a foreign body may tell us. It shows the absolute confidence of the people in their representatives when a majority of them in conference have the power of determining what the platform shall be 225 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin The honorable member is not replying to me now? 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER No; it is only a passing reference I am making. More than once the honorable gentleman has indulged, in a little hilarity about the dangers of machinemade politics. With us there are no machinemade politics. As you, sir, know well, not 10 per cent. of the actual business of Parliamert is contained in any programme. A singular thing about the position of Labour Ministers is that administrative matters are not touched at all. In that respect, we are absolutely free. I am availing myself of. this opportunity to let every honest man and woman in the country know the facts. I am not so innocent as to think that wicked, malicious, and gross misrepresentations will not be wilfully made against us in the future as in the past. Every radical party has had to meet such treatment. In every age it is the method of certain men to keep their privileges by misrepresentations. 225 KNJ 0 0 MAUGER, Samuel Mr Mauger I have to meet them every day. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I am quite sure that in his career the honorable member has not been free from such treatment, although he may be in the future. I may very well leave that matter now. When we met this morning, the leader of the Opposition indicated that it was a magnanimous actiorn, which he took the previoug evening. 225 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No; I did not put it s0 strongly as that. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I made the note "magnanimous action," because that is what I gathered from the priraseology which the honorable gentleman used. 225 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Polite action. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I do not want to misunderstand the honorable gentleman. made a short note of his "magnanimous action" in making an intimation, through the whip of the late Cook party, about closing the debate on the Address-in-Reply. I do not hold that view. With all du respect to .the honorable member, I do not think that the circumstances then and the circumstances when I gave him private and public notice of the withdrawal of our party's support, are the same. It was only after a very long, and, I think, very serious consideration, and frequent interchanges of views between ourselves, that that resolution was arrived at last year. It was so fixed in my mind at the time that I did nof feel that I was called upon to ask for the assistance of the Govrnment in any way. As I said then, it was in the interests of tjie public that I .made that statement. Whether rightly or wrongly, it was made with that end in view, and the honotable gentleman will, I think, agred with me that I was not anxious which party got an advantage at the time. If the Op- Dosition had come into power, we should have supported them. We came into power; we intended to do our best, and we did. 225 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —I did my best that it should be the honorable member who succeeded me. 225 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I am not complaining. I acknowledge at once what the honorable gentleman didr; but he will admit that never once during my leadership, did I askhim to do anything under duress or pressure, w do anything at which a gentleman would take offence. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin Quite so; the honorable gentleman did nothing of that kind. 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER Nor did I seek, at any time while the honorable gentleman was in office, to get information which another botiorable member would not be entitled to. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —I do not think that any one ever suspected that the honorable member did. 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER As regards getting anything put in writing, the honorable member knows that I hkve said that I have no use for that sort of friend. Nothing between me and another person needs to be put in writing. That is the position I occupy here. The honorable member has had a long' public career with a party which is well supported by the press. We are not so fortunate. We have only the platform from which we can protect ourselves thoroughly, and it is for that reason that I avail myself of this opportunity to state these matters as quietly and correctly as I can. I want now to refer very briefly to another matter. At the end of last night's sitting, I asked the leader of the Opposition whether the motion for the adjournment of the debate on the Address-in-Reply was moved with his concurrence and approval, and he said, "Certainly." At the moment I had not an opportunity of asking that question. T had to wait for a subsequent motion to be moved before I could even ask whether the motion was moved with his approval and consent. That courtesy is usually allowed to the Prime Minister in any Parliament, when a want of confidence motion is moved. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin But the honorable member had spoken, for I do not know how long. 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER May I remind the honorable member of the traditional courtesy which is allowed to the leader of a Government when a motion of that kind is moved l)y a private member. He is afforded the opportunity of asking the leader of the Opposition whether it is a party move or a mere motion of an individual member. That is an immemorial custom in constitutional Parliaments. I had not that opportunity afforded to me. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin I told the honorable member that I was about to speak instead of the honorable member for Parramatta, and to give an intimation which he would probahlv feel called, upon to reply to. 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER As the honorable member makes that statement, I have only to say that I heard nothing from him until we were coming through the passage together. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin No; but I stopped and spoke to the honorable member as I came out of the luncheon room. I leaned over him, and said, "I propose to take Cook's position, and make an intimation to which you will probably reply." I was careful not to use the word motion. The honorable member answered, "Yes, I will reply." 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER The honorable member is in error, though, no doubt, he believes that that took place. He did not even stop. He shook my hand. 226 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin —I leaned over the honorable member. 226 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER The honorable member did not actually stop. He shook my hand, and asked, "How are you?" but it was only when coming through the door, as we were hurrying from the lobby, that I. learned that he had taken the place of the late leader of the Opposition. I have no recollection of any further conversation, and think that the honorable member is in error as to what took place. That, however, is by the way. Even if he had said what he thinks he said, that would not have been a sufficient intimation to me. I bring the matter 'up because the honorable member for Gippsland, in a speech whose tone, quite apart from its subject matter, was such as would do credit to a member of any representative chamber, said, "I am glad that what was done was not done by one of my late colleagues." How, then, could I understand, without asking the leader of the Opposition, how it was done? A gentleman whom the honorable member for Ballarat considered one of his most trusted, honorable, and able colleagues expressed a certain amount of jov—as any one who beard him must remember—because what was done was not done by any of his old colleagues. But it was done by intimation and agreement beforehand by his old leader. Therefore, to that extent the speech of the honorable mthber for Gippsland was a reflection upon him. I do not know that I should detain honorable members further. Perhaps I have already detained them too long. If I may be allowed one personal word, it will be this: I have not been idle. I have acted to the best of my ability in the service of my adopted country. I express no regrets. I ask for no consideration. In leading in a radical movement I have had to face opposition always active. I have not always overcome it; but I am here. If I do not return I shall express no regrets. It has been my good fortune to have seen a great deal of public life, and, in some small way, to help to mould the opinions of a number of people. 227 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin NO one wishes to lose the honorable member. 227 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER I trust that, whatever be the result of the new arrangement, it will be of advantage to the Commonwealth in every *ay. That it marks a new line of division I have not the slightest doubt. That friends of the past will no longer bepolitical friends is obvious. But, above all, I hope that whichever party may add to its numbers, and whichever party may diminish, the interests and the welfare of the people of Australia will not suffer. Question resolved in the affirmative 227 18:30:00 House adjourned at 6.30 p.m.