1909-10-08 3 4 0 REPS 4327 0 House of Representatives. 1909-10-08 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 4327 Questions 4327 4327 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - I understood the Prime Minister to say last night, when dealing with the sugar industry, that an investigation would be made by the proposed InterState 'Commission ; but the idea prevails with some honorable members that the Government intends to appoint a special Commission to conduct an inquiry. . I ask the honorable gentleman whether he will be good enough to make his intentions in this respect clear, and, if he intends to appoint a special Commission, to outline the scope of its investigation. 4327 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is a question on the notice-paper dealing with this matter. 4327 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - I did not know that. I have no wish to anticipate a question of which notice has been given. 4327 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN -Before replying to the question on notice, I may inform the honorable member that what I intended to convey was that in the future all inquiries of this character will be referred to the Inter-State Commission, but that, as the measure providing for the creation of that body has not yet been passed, the Commission may not be able to undertake this particular investigation. 4328 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether it is the intention of the Government to appoint a non-political Board or Commission for the purpose of conducting an inquiry into all matters relating to the sugar industry ? If so, will the inquiry embrace - The incidence and effect of the bounty and Excise provisions of the Sugar Bounty Act of1905? The success or otherwise of such provisions in securing the industry to white labour ? The advisability or otherwise of extending such legislation ; or, in the event of such legislation being allowed to lapse, whether other and more direct legislation may be necessary to maintain the white-labour policy? Whether the division of the profits of the industry, as between the grower, worker, miller, and refiner, are- fair and equitable? 4328 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - It is the intention of the Government to appoint a non-political Board to inquire into matters relating to the sugar industry, should the Inter-State Commission not be able to make that investigation sufficiently early. Among the subjects to be investigated are those set out in paragraphs a, b, c and 3 of the honorable member's question. 4328 4328 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr JOHNSON - I wish to know from the Minister of Trade and Customs whether the comparative statement regarding Excise inspectors, revenue, and cost of collection in New South Wales and Victoria, for which I asked on the 29th September,' will be available shortly? 4328 KFK Protectionist 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I shall make inquiry. 4328 4328 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I wish to know from the Prime Minister, with reference to the employment of a new agency for educating the public on political questions - the cinematograph - whether he could allow an operator to take pictures showing this House at. the commencement of its sittings, in order that the public may see how earnest Government supporters are in the conduct of business. I had better not say more. 4328 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The fuller, closer, and ampler the knowledge of this Parliament, possessed by the public, the more highly will its labours be appreciated. 4328 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers : - Federal Capital Site, Yass-Canberra- Further correspondence regarding (dated 28th September, 1909). Ordered to be printed. Bounties Act - Regulations amended, Nos. 20 to 28 - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 103. Quarantine Act - Regulations amended (Provisional), No. 5A - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 100. Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under, at Maribyrnong, Victoria - For Defence purposes. Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations Amended, &c. - General (Holidays); Postal; General Postal - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 104. Regulations for securing telegraph lines, &c, from interference by house removals, &c- Statutory Rules 1909, No. 109. Postal; Telegraphic; Money Orders - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 111. 4328 Questions 4328 Applications for Enrolment - Failure to Enrol 4328 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr BOWDEN - I have received several complaints from electors who, having made application for . enrolment, have had their letters returned to them through the post-office. Cannot the Minister of Home Affairs arrange with the Postmaster-General for instructions- to be given to postmasters to record these applications, or to forward them for registration, instead of returning them ? 4328 JZF Free Trade 0 0 FULLER, George Mr FULLER - I shall take an early opportunity to consult with my honorable colleague, with a view to having the matter rectified. 4328 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - Is the Minister aware that persons who, twelve months ago, took the trouble to go to the Kew post-office to enrol are now being informed toy the police, who are calling at their houses, that their names are not on the rolls ? 4328 JZF 0 0 FULLER, George Mr FULLER - I am not aware of what took place twelve months ago, but" I shall make inquiry into the matter. 4329 4329 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - I wish to know from the Prime Minister whether the Government intends to adhere to its proposal to borrower, 200, 000 for the construction of public works in various parts of Australia? 4329 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - That proposal stands, subject only to the later proposal in the Constitution Alteration (Finance) Bill. 4329 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - Does the honorable gentleman mean that no loan will be floated if the agreement with the Premiers is adopted, but that, if it is not. the proposal to borrow ,£1,200,000 will be persevered with ? 4329 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Should the agreement be adopted, the floating of a loan will probably be unnecessary. There may be what is sometimes termed financing, to carry on from one year to the other, so that funds will be available. If the agreement be hot adopted the financial proposals of the Government will be proceeded with. 4329 4329 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH - I wish to know from the Prime Minister whether a communication has recently been received from the Government of Cape Colony asking that explosives made there with black labour may be admitted to the Commonwealth under the preference agreement on the same terms as British-made explosives? 4329 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Speaking from memory, the request, came from Cape Colony that dynamite manufactured there should be admitted under the preference agreement. As dynamite is not one of the commodities to which the agreement applies, this would not be acceded to. Further communication is proceeding. I am not aware whether the dynamite referred to is made by black labour or by white, or by both black and white. 4329 4329 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - The splendid collection of Australian books recently acquired by the Commonwealth from Mr. Petherick is now buried in a cellar. I ask the Prime Minister whether arrangements cannot be made to have the best part of it placed in the Queen's Hall, and allow Mr. Petherick to attend there for an hour on certain days of the week when Parliament is not sitting to give information to students of Australian history who wish to investigate it? ['5<S] Under the present arrangement it is almost useless. 4329 009MD Protectionist 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I shall call the attention of the Library Committee to the suggestion of the honorable member. 4329 4329 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr HEDGES - Has the attention of the Postmaster-General been called to the fact that both the Fremantle and Perth Chambers of Commerce are protesting against the proposal that the mail steamers should call at Albany ? 4329 KYJ Protectionist 1 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Yes. The final settlement of the time-table will probably be come to to-day, when the representative of the Orient Company will arrive from Sydney. 4329 bill 4329 Debate resumed from 6th October (vide page 4205), on motion by Mr. Groom - That this Bill be now read a second time. 4329 JM2 Capricornia 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER .- I wish to state some of the objections to the agreement between the last Deakin Government and the Government of South Australia for the transfer of the Northern Territory to the Commonwealth. It is proposed, I understand, that the Commonwealth shall take over the Territory, and all liabilities contracted in regard to it, and undertake to construct a railway between two fixed points, following a practically already determined route, taking over the existing line from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta. Those who have carefully studied the map of Australia must feel that the proposed railway would cost a great deal of money, and would not follow the route best adapted for developmental purposes. The other States, and Queensland in particular, have developed their territory by means of long trunk lines, reaching out to the great pastoral plains inland, and. by shorter lines opening up agricultural and mining ' areas nearer the coast. I am satisfied that no matter what this Parliament may do, there is no likelihood of the Northern Territory being populated to any appreciably greater degree within the next thirty years. I do not mean to suggest that there mav not be steady progress, but I certainly think that while Queensland is busily engaged in opening up some of the finest dairying land in the world, extending along some thousand miles of coastline, we are hardly likely to induce a great number of people to settle in the Northern Territory. The people will naturally make further south, towards centres of population where the conditions are better. That being so, the only business-like policy to be pursued in opening up the Territory is, to my mind, that of constructing railways where there are possibilities of the maintenance of settlement. We are informed that the best portion of the Northern Territory may be said roughly to lie between Pine Creek, the terminus of the present railway line, and Camooweal along the tableland. In the northern part of the Territory to which I have just alluded, there are possibilities of closer settlement. Big runs could be cut up into selections, as has been done in Queensland, with the result that they would carry probably four times the number of stock now upon them. It is the intention of the Queensland Government to link up their western lines from Cunnamulla through Long Reach and up towards Cloncurry. That extension would run to Camooweal, and a railway line from Pine Creek to Camooweal would open up that portion of the Northern Territory which is best suited for closer pastoral occupation. For many years such a line would be ample for the purpose of development. I entirely agree with the view put forward by the honorable member for Wakefield that the South Australian Government might very well extend their own line from Oodnadatta to the MacDonnell Ranges, and so develop that part of the Territory for themselves. There is a natural line of demarcation between the MacDonnell Ranges, which comprise fair country with immense "mineral possibilities, and the tableland stretching away towards the northern coast. There is between the two what is more or less desert country, which could not be profitably occupied at the present time. The Commonwealth, however, might take over the northern part of the Territory to which I have drawn attention, and it could be thoroughly and at the same time cheaply developed by a line from Pine Creek to Camooweal, which would thus connect it by railway with the rest of Australia, leaving the southern part of the Territory to be developed by South Australia by means of the existing railway line. In this way the Commonwealth would be relieved of the necessity of building, an enormously expensive line - a line which I understand would cost between ,£5,000,000 and £6,000,000 - and the money saved by building the comparatively short section I advocate would be available for throwing out short developmental lines to open up agricultural lands and mineral fields. 4330 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is an excellent Queensland proposition. 4330 JM2 0 0 ARCHER, Edward Mr ARCHER - If the line which I have suggested were built it might have the effect of drawing up north some of the extreme western trade. I do not know whether the honorable member would describe that as being good for Queensland. That State proposes to link up its western lines, and advantage should be taken of this opportunity to develop the Territory in a way that would be most economical from the stand-point of Australia, and most profitable to the Territory itself. The honorable member for Grey, like the Government of South Australia, believes, apparently, that that State would benefit bv the through line, and is desirous of saddling on the people of the Northern Territory an enormous and quite unnecessary expenditure. Under my proposal we should be able to develop the country as far as would be practicable within the next ' fifty years for less than one-half of the cost of the trans-continental line. I do not wish to deal further with the Bill at the present stage, but I thought it due to South Australia, which has hitherto shouldered the burden of administering the Territory, that I, in common with other honorable members who are opposed to the desires of the State Government as expressed in the agreement, should make my position clear. I must freely admit that the question has not been discussed from a parochial standpoint. Every honorable member has approached its consideration from the viewpoint of what is best for Australia, and we ought certainly to endeavour to do what is best also for the Territory. The people most concerned are not those of Queensland, South Australia, or Victoria, but those who -will inhabit the Territory, and they should receive our primary consideration. 4330 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON . - I had intended to go fully into this question, but as I understand that the Government are anxious to bring the second-reading debate to a close I shall confine myself to a statement of what, I think, should be my attitude towards it as a supporter of the Government. I am prepared to vote for the second reading of the Bill, but clearly on the understanding that in Committee I shall have a free hand. I do not wish it to be inferred, because I vote for the second reading, that I am in favour of the agreement which appears in the schedule to the Bill. 4331 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - It is in the same position as is the agreement with the Premiers. 4331 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - As the schedule contains the whole agreement I thought it necessary to make this explanation of what my attitude is. 4331 KTT Parkes 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - I recognise that there is a desire to shorten this debate, in order that the opinion of the House upon the agreement which has been entered into between the Government of the Commonwealth and that of South Australia may be speedily ascertained. For my own part, I fail to see how it could be prolonged unless honorable members wished, as some representatives of South Australia have done, to enter upon a long discussion as to the character of the soil and the possibilities of the Territory. That, I think, does not touch the real question before us. A remark made a moment or two ago by the honorable member . for Yarra, suggests that some honorable members are under the impression that the agreement embodied in the Bill can be treated as part of the Bill itself, and amended to meet the wishes of the House. I am. sure, however, that the honorable member knows that the question involved in this Bill is not on what terms we are prepared to take over the Territory, but whether or not we are ready to take it over on the terms embodied in the present agreement. Although favorable to the general proposal to take over the Territory, I shall do my utmost to oppose the proposed agreement in every possible way. Although its terms may be advantageous to South Australia financially, we ha,ve always to keep in mind the Australian point of view. Having regard to the proposal that we should construct a railway through this stupendous area, we must realize that this is one of the most far-reaching expenditure propositions that have been before us. It is generally conceded by people well versed in the geography and environment of Australia that some day or other Port Darwin will afford to all the Australian capitals and the people closer connexion with Europe and the Northern Hemisphere generally, either by wireless telegraphy, mails, or even railway communication. It is of the utmost import- ancc, therefore, to Australia that in taking a first step towards the establishment of that route of communication we should not incur an expenditure of many millions on an undertaking which might ultimately, have to be abandoned, or might have to be continued at great disadvantage to all the Eastern States. The position is not that we have to take either this agreement or nothing; for I have little doubt that a modified set of conditions can be obtained which will be equally beneficial to South Australia and more just to the Eastern States who would ha.ve to contribute the cost. From what I know of the opinions of explorers, I am led to believe that that part of the Territory through which the railway line, as conceived by South Australia, would run is of a very barren and arid character. It is admitted by all, notwithstanding the advocacy of certain representatives of South Australia, that the construction of the line originally conceived by the people of that State would be a calamity to the Commonwealth. 4331 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is nonsense. 4331 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I heard the honorable member, in glowing terms, worthy, of a Macaulay, describe this Territory. He certainly indulged in a very fine piece of advocacy, and there was scarcely a feature of the soil, the climate or the fauna which he neglected. But we have to look this question straight in the face, prosaically, and to determine what is good, not merely for South Australia, but for the whole Commonwealth. I should be extremely glad if the interests of Australia could be made compatible with the desire of South Australia to recoup herself for her - as I view it - mistaken outlay. I know from one of the partners who constructed the line from Pine Creek to Port Darwin that they found it absolutely impossible to do that work with white labour. 4331 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is nonsense. 4331 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I would remind the honorable member that the contract was let by the South Australian Government upon alternative terms. If it were carried out by white labour the contractors were to be paid £80,000 more, and naturally they sought to earn that additional sum. They therefore put on white labour at first, and a member of the firm told me that they had ultimately to abandon it and abandon the £80,000 also. 4331 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Because, they found they could make a greater profit out of cheap coloured labour. 4332 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I am not going to enter into a controversy as to what white labour can or cannot do, but it must have been very bad country and very difficult work. There is no doubt, from the testimony of all the explorers, that the country from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek is of the poorest description - some of the least valuable in Australia. 4332 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The " honorable member is entirely wrong; he cannot get the explorers to back him up in that statement. 4332 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I observe that all the South Australian representatives are the strongest advocates for the proposed railway. I very much distrust that class of speech which develops into pure advocacy. Two or three alternative routes have been proposed, and the one which impressed me when I first heard it expounded fourteen years ago is that of Mr. Alexander Wilson. He has no interest whatever- 4332 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is a New South Wales line. 4332 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I am not talking of a New South Wales line. Mr. Wilson in a lecture which he delivered on the subject fourteen years ago, advocated the route that he advocates now. His scheme is shown on the map which I hold in my hand, and which has been printed and distributed in the House, although I observe that it has never been incorporated with the other suggested routes upon the large map which hangs upon the wall of the chamber, in order to let honorable members see what it all involves. It is a route which connects Victoria with the line to Port Darwin by the construction of 170 miles of railway from Mildura to Broken Hill; it connects South Australia with Port Darwin by carrying the existing line from Torowangie in a north-easterly direction to Thargomindah. It puts Sydney and New South Wales into close touch with Port Darwin by the construction of a connecting line of 210 miles from Bourke to Thargomindah, and Brisbane into touch with Port Darwin by a connecting line of 170 miles. It puts Rockhampton into connexion by the construction of another 150 miles, and it brings Townsville into direct connexion. 4332 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The honorable member's figures are all wrong. 4332 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I think they are as accurate as any the honorable member can give to the House, seeing that, like myself, he has never been over the ground. 4332 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I ask the honorable member for Grey to allow the honorable member for Parkes to proceed with his speech. 4332 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member spoke the other day for two hours, like Tennyson's " Brook," and nobody attempted to interrupt him. He ransacked the dictionary for flowery language in which to describe this country, and he so completely over-protested, as Shakespeare puts it, that I put his speech down as a piece of sheer advocacy which was not entitled to be regarded as of much real value in any commonsense discussion of this question* I hope the honorable member will now allow me ten minutes in which to put my views before the House. Mr. Wilson's alternative scheme shows a line of railway running somewhat east of the line proposed by South Australia. Whereas, by the line advocated in the contract, Adelaide would, be 1,896 miles by rail from Port Darwin, it would be 2,215 miles away by the alternative route, or only 319 miles further off. Melbourne, if connected by way of Oodnadatta would- be 2,379 ' miles distant by rail from Port Darwin, but via the route proposed by Mr. Wilson it would be 2,412 miles away, or an increased distance of only 33 miles. Now, take Sydney, Brisbane, and other northern ports, and we shall realize the difference. Th'ose slight sacrifices of about 300 miles in the case of South Australia and about 30 miles in the case of Victoria would be compensated for by the enormous advantages to other States which I shall enumerate, and which lead me to conclude that Mr. Wilson's alternative far out-distances the proposal of the South Australian Government. Sydney, by the construction of the line proposed by the South Australian Government, would be 2,961 miles by railway from Port Darwin, but by the -alternative route she would save 730 miles. Brisbane, by the route involved in the South Australian scheme, would be distant by rail 3,686 miles from Port Darwin, but if this alternative scheme were adopted she would save 1,500 miles. Under the South Australian scheme the people of Rockhampton would have to travel over 4,000 miles by rail to reach Port Darwin, a distance which the alternative scheme would reduce to only 1,708 miles, thus saving 2,300 miles. 4332 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - Always assuming that no other line but that will be built. 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It assumes that if this line is constructed, South Australia will be able to reach the same objective bygoing via Broken Hill. It will enable Victoria to reach Port Darwin by constructing a short length of line between Mildura and Broken Hill. It will enable Sydney and the whole of New South Wales to reach it by constructing a piece of line 210 miles long from Bourke to Thargomindah. It will enable Brisbane to reach it by constructing 170 miles of new line from Wyandra to Thargomindah, and Rockhampton to reach it by constructing 150 miles of new line from Longreach to Cork. Townsville would reach it by way of Mount Elliott; which is now being made the terminus of one of the Queensland railways. 4333 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - Will it be worth all these railways when YOU have built them? 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That is a matter for the other States to determine. It would make very little difference to Tasmania, and I do not apprehend that she will have any greater interest in the matter than the other States for a long time to come. If Port Darwin is to attain the importance which many people claim for it, as the ultimate and most convenient northern outlet for Australia, the alternative line that I have described will enable every State, except, of course, Western Australia, which cannot in any case be immediately interested, to reach Port Darwin by the shortest possible route, by utilizing their existing lines. Another aspect of the question is involved in the fact that the terms of the contract embody some most imperative conditions on the part of the purchaser. In the first place it stipulates that all the money that South Australia has ever spent upon the existing line shall be paid for by the Commonwealth. Assuming that the construction of that line has been altogether a mistaken venture on the part of South Australia, in order to give herself a monopoly of communication with Port Darwin and the rest of the Territory, it means that all the money spent on that mistaken venture is to be now paid by the people of Australia, who are to get no connexion with the line which they are called upon to pay for. 4333 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - That is a very unfair assumption. 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It is not an unfair assumption, but an arguable one, because the terms of the contract are plain. Read it either as a layman or as a lawyer, and it must be seen that it involves recouping the South Australian Government for the whole of its previous expenditure. 4333 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - We take over a liability 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - We do; and we take over a line between Oodnadatta and Port Augusta which, according to the authorities that I' have by me, is thirty years old. 4333 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Another of Wilson's inaccuracies. 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I can understand that it may be unpleasant for South Australian members, after making several eloquent speeches, to meet a prosaic statement of this sort, which may knock the bottom brick out of the edifice that they have reared. According to information, which I have from very good authorities, the line from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta is thirty years old. It still consists of the original rails, which are of iron and not of steel, and of the kind most used in those times. I am told also, for what it is worth, that it is not possible at present to run a train upon it at more than 15 miles an hour. 4333 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Does the honorable member say that those statements regarding the line are made on the authority of experts? 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - They are made on very good authority. 4333 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - The information which the Government have does not bear them out. 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - At any rate no one will deny that portion of the line consists of the original rails laid down thirty years ago. 4333 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The line has been built for only twenty years. I have lived in that part of South Australia for thirty years, and I ought to know. 4333 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The Act was assented to in 1883. 4333 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That was twenty-six years ago, and I have no doubt the construction was begun immediately afterwards. The honorable member for Wakefield must therefore be a little out in his calculations. The whole of the line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek remains to be constructed, and notwithstanding all the eloquence that has been brought to bear, I have not heard in this House one word from people whose opinions I would value as those of experts, to the effect that the country between Oodnadatta- and Pine Creek is nearly as valuable or as fertile as that which would be traversed by the alternative route suggested by Mr. Wilson. Every one who knows the eastern portions of New South Wales and Queensland and the Northern Territory, will say that the alternative line would go through, some excellent pastoral country in Australia. When, on the one hand, we are invited to enter into obligations, present and future, involving something approaching£10,000,000, and, on the other, it is suggested that we might build a railway at our leisure, which would give better communication with the eastern States, and which would make a difference to South Australia of no more than 210 miles, we should not hesitate to reject this particular measure. The object of this Bill is simply to confirm an arrangement entered into some two or three years ago between the Commonwealth Government and the South Australian Government. 4334 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The honorable gentleman does not seem to think that the Prime Minister is very successful with his agreements. 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I have not spoken generally, and I object to the honorable member putting such a statement into my mouth. I say that this was an agreement subject to the ratification of Parliament. I hope Parliament will reject it. It would be of no use for us to attempt to amend the agreement, because there must be two parties to any alteration of its terms. I have heard representatives of South Australia say, time and again, that the Northern Territory is so valuable that South Australia is not now anxious to complete the agreement. They have gone so far as to say that if this Bill be rejected, South Australia will not give to the Commonwealth another chance. Well, I should not like to see South Australia taken at a disadvantage, and I, therefore, hope that honorable members will give the Government of that State an opportunity to think the bargain over again. If the Bill is rejected, an opportunity will be afforded for further negotiations between the State and the Commonwealth Governments. 4334 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Does the honorable member say that we cannot amend the agreement ? 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member must see that we could not do so. To attempt to do so would be merely to indicate to the South Australian Government what we are prepared to do, and as South Australia would not be a party to any alterations we made in the terms of the agreement, it would still be necessary to have further negotiations with the Government of that State. 4334 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Could we not indicate our views by amendments of the agreement ? 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That would not be convenient. We cannot make a conference of Parliament, with one of the parties to the agreement absent. 4334 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - We might make suggestions. 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Honorable members can, and will, make their suggestions in the speeches they deliver upon the Bill ; and if the Government of South Australia are anxious to go on with the matter, it will be open to them to submit an amended proposal to the Commonwealth Government in. the light of the suggestions offered in those speeches. I am . sorry that I should feel it my duty, as a representative, not only of my own constituency, but of Australia, to say so many things which are not palatable to South Australian representatives, but they should remember that when they come here in this beautifully unanimous frame of mind, to advocate the taking over of the Northern Territory by the Commonwealth, for better or worse, on these terms, one is made naturally a little suspicious of the balance of their minds. 4334 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - They are as unanimous as the State Premiers were at the recent Conference. 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - There is a constant attempt on the part of some honorable members to suggest a parallel between the agreements referred to, but they have nothing whatever in common. 4334 L17 0 0 WILKS, William Mr Wilks - Should an agreement override Parliament? 4334 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I do not wish to deal with that general question. I am very sorry that the conclusions to which I have given expression are not agreeable to representatives of South Australia. I shall vote against the second reading of the Bill. I do not think that any good could come of any attempt at this stage to amend the agreement, when the South Australian Government could not be a party to our conference. Parliament is not, in my opinion, qualified in many respects to constitute itself a Conference for such a purpose 4334 KJ8 Hindmarsh 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON . - I never listened to a more disappointing debate on a great national question. The honorable member for Parkes has indulged in a great deal of gross misrepresentation. 4335 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member can make his meaning perfectly clear without using terms of offence. No member of this House should be charged with indulging in gross misrepresentation. 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - I did not assume that the expression I used would be regarded as offensive. A similar expression is used almost every day without being considered offensive. 4335 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! An honorable member who grossly misrepresents another does something which is unbecoming a member' of this House. I ask the honorable member not to apply such expressions to another member. 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - I am only too ready to withdraw the expression, but I did not dream that it would be considered offensive. I take, for instance, the statement made by the honorable member for Parkes that the rails on the line from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta are thirty years old. That statement is inaccurate. It is true that the original rails laid down are still there, but they would last for 150 years with the traffic on them. It is not a fact, either, that trains cannot be driven at a speed of more than fifteen miles an hour over that line. Many of the members of this House travelled over that line in as comfortable a train as could be found in any other part of the Commonwealth, and at a very much more rapid rate than the honorable member has mentioned. 4335 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - There must be. some very conflicting information published in connexion with this question 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - The honorable member for Parkes has said what is in the minds of a good many honorable members who have not yet spoken on the Bill, as well as of honorable members who have addressed themselves to it. He has suggested that it is possible that the Common- wealth Parliament would be prepared to take over the Northern Territory if the terms of the proposed agreement were altered. The honorable member advises that we should ask the South Australian Parliament to alter' the agreement in the light of the suggestions offered in the speeches made on this Bill. What would that mean? Instead of dealing with the question as a national one of supreme importance to the safety of the Commonwealth - because it is agreed that the safety of the Commonwealth largely depends on the peopling of the Northern Territory - honorable members have not looked at the national aspect of the matter at all. They have simply said - " What is my State going to get out of it?" The honorable member for Kennedy, for instance, made an excellent speech. He said that South Australia is deserving of the gratitude of the people of the Commonwealth for keeping out the coloured races, and he wound up by saying that he intended to vote against the Bill unless a railway were built at the Commonwealth expense, to develop, not the Northern Territory, but Queensland. 4335 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr Bowden - The people of the Northern Territory would prefer to be connected with Queensland. 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - I shall deal presently with what the honorable member for Nepean has said. South Australia proposes to hand over to the Commonwealth an enormous asset. 4335 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - What does the honorable member call it ? 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - One of the richest assets of the Commonwealth. When I say that, I do not give merely my own opinion, but the opinion of gentlemen like Professor Spencer, Professor ' Tate, and the Rev. Tenison Woods, who was one of the best geologists, botanists, and naturalists who have ever been in Australia, and who lived in the Territory for many years. I could quote many extracts, which have not yet been referred to in this House, to show what the best authorities in Australia today have to say with- regard to the richness of the soil of the Territory, the rainfall, and the mineral wealth of the county 4335 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr Bowden - The potential wealth is admitted. 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - The honorable member talks of the potential wealth of the Territory; but he ignores the fact that there is a mere handful of white people in the Northern Territory to-day. 4335 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - Why? 4335 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Because there is no ready means of communication with it, and if some honorable members had their way, there would not be any. Honorable members representing New South Wales are prepared to take over the Territory if a railway is built for the development of New South Wales. Those who represent Queensland would agree to the transfer if it involved the building of a railway to develop the State from which they come, and some honorable members representing Victoria, though not all, I am glad to say, think the transfer might be agreed to if a railway were built at the Commonwealth expense, to develop a part of Victoria. 4336 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - Will the honorable member mention the name of one Victorian member who said that? 4336 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - The honorable member for Wimmera said that the railway should go from Mildura, and I think the honorable member for Melbourne Ports made the same demand. The honorable member for Balaclava must know that the honorable member for Kennedy has contended that the railway should go through Queensland, and he has just heard the honorable member for Parkes suggesting a railway from Bourke to Thargomindah. I should like to say that South Australia is not anxious to hand over the Territory unconditionally. When the honorable member for Wentworth was speaking, he said that the honorable member for Wakefield had made the most statesmanlike suggestion he had heard, and that that honorable member was the first to make it. He referred to the suggestion that South Australia should construct the line from Oodnadatta up to the MacDonnell Ranges. That is a very old suggestion. T have here a pamphlet, in which the Hon. J. Langdon Parsons, who was Government Resident of the Northern Territory for a number of years, made the suggestion fifteen years ago. 4336 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr Bowden - Has there not been a trial survey up to the MacDonnell Ranges? 4336 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - No. I do not think there has been any more than a rough survey, but there are no engineering difficulties on the route between Oodnadatta and Pine Creek, via the MacDonnell Ranges. That was clearly stated in the admirable speech made by the Minister of External Affairs in moving the second reading of the Bill. It is not necessary, after the honorable gentleman's speech, and that of the honorable member for Grey, to go into details. The Hon. J. L. Parsons wrote - But in view of the fact that the southern portion can be best administered and developed from the south, in my evidence before the Royal Commission, page 45, I recommended that the northern boundary of South Australia should be taken to the 21st parallel of latitude. The additional area, which would include the MacDonnell Ranges and Barrow Creek, would be 125,760,000 acres. If this 125,760,000 acres be deducted from 335,116,800 acres, the area of the Northern Territory would then be 209,356,800 acres. Then, on the basis of calculation at id. (One penny) per acre, South Australia must take over £524,000 of the .total debt of ^2,852,495. This would leave the debt of the diminished territory at, say, £2;400,000. This suggestion may, perhaps, be worth considering by both the South Australian and the Commonwealth Parliaments. That pamphlet was written in 1901. Before the present agreement was made, I had an interview with the late Premier of South Australia, and urged him to do this very thing. The proposal has been discussed in the State Legislative 'Council, and will yet be carried out. But then, instead of the Commonwealth owning the line, the State will own it, and the debt incurred for its construction will ultimately be paid by the Commonwealth, the State holding all its assets free of liability. We passed ' the second reading of a Bill only the other day to take over the debts of the States, and after a certain number of years their assets will be free from liability. 4336 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The honorable member speaks very easily about paying the debts, but to take them over will not be to pav them. 4336 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - All sections of the House agreed .to the proposal to relieve the States of their debts. After a term of years, by reason of the savings made by the Commonwealth, the debts will be paid, and the States will hold their assets free of liability. South Australia has, therefore, only to borrow for the construction of this line, and leave the debts to be taken over by the Commonwealth. Undoubtedly the State stands on velvet. The honorable member for Parkes has spoken as though merely an antiquated railway was being offered to the Commonwealth. Why did he not mention that it had been offered the best watered country in Australia? Honorable members who visited the Northern Territory saw flowing down by the Daly more water than flows down the Murray. Besides that river, there are the Adelaide, the Victoria, the Roper, and other rivers more navigable than the Murray. The honorable member also said that a railway could not be built there, except by coloured labour. 4336 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - I got my information direct from a contractor. 4336 JWO Cook ALP 0 0 CATTS, James Mr JAMES CATTS -H. Catts. - We saw white men doing heavy mining work there. 4336 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Mr. T. H. Cahill, who lived in the Territory for twenty-four years as manager of several of Mr. W. F. Buchanan's stations on the Victoria River, and is now living in New South Wales, when interviewed by a reporter from the Adelaide Advertiser, laughed at the idea that the Northern Territory could not be developed without ' coloured labour. He said - A white man can do twice as much work as a black fellow, and as for standing the climate, I think I have already told you the climate is a most healthy one. I know men engaged in all classes of work - men who knock themselves about bv occasional sprees, &c, yet they are as hardy and healthy as I am. I have had the pleasure of meeting both Mr. Cahill and his brother. They are two of the healthiest men whom 1 'know. 4337 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Mr. Buchanan has never tried navvying work in the Northern Territory. 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Mr. Cahill engaged a large gang of navvies, and found no difficulty in getting them to work well. When in the Territory I spoke to a leading resident who was a great believer in coloured labour. He said that nothing could be done there without using coloured labour. Other residents said that they believed in white labour, but could not get it. When I asked why not, I was told superciliously, that having been there only a few hours I thought I knew all about the place. My reply was that I had kept my eyes open, and I told them what I had seen. I related that in the railway workshops I had found white men as skilled as any in the Commonwealth, and that on the line to Pine Creek I had seen white labourers employed. These fettlers are getting 8s. a day. The honorable member for Wakefield will remember that I assisted to increase their wages by is. a day. When I asked the people whom I met in the Territory, whether they could get all the white labour they needed for the railways, they said " Yes." All the employes I saw in the post-office were white persons, and it was the same in. the Customs office and in the Police Department. 4337 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - Those persons do not perform manual labour. 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - The fettlers, the engine-drivers, and the men in the workshops perform manual labour. There is no difficulty in getting white labour of any kind in the Territory if constant employment can be assured. 4337 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Where are the workshops ? 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - They are not far from the Port Darwin jetty. 4337 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Is any one working there ? 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Certainly. The Territory makes all its own rolling-stock. 4337 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - How many are employed ? 4337 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - One fitter and a boy. 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Nonsense. The rolling-stock is as up-to-date as is any in the Commonwealth. 4337 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - Because it is not used. 4337 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - What about the children in the Territory? 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - Dr. Ramsay Smith, the Chief Health Officer of South Australia, found that in no part of the Commonwealth is there such freedom from disease as in the Northern Territory. I had several interviews with Dr. Strangman, who had been in the Territory for six months - long enough to ,know something aBout it, and possibly to become prejudiced. He told me that it was the healthiest place that he had struck. The children there were quite healthy. I admit that the health of the women is not so good as that of the men, but this is easily explained. It is greatly their own fault, because, as they can get their house work done for next to nothing, they do not take the necessary amount of exercise. That state of affairs will be altered when the population increases, because then they will have to do their own work, instead of getting blacks to do it. Mr. Cahill says that the country cannot be surpassed for cattle breeding. But it would be a mistake to prolong the debate, seeing that the measure is going to receive such short shrift. However, I cannot allow that to happen without protesting against the unfair way in which it has been treated. There has been much misrepresentation, and a most parochial spirit has been shown. Honorable members have considered only what their States will get out of the arrangement. 4337 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr Bowden - That is the South Australian point of view. 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - South Australia is offering to hand over to the Commonwealth its richest province. 4337 JRH 0 0 BOWDEN, Eric Mr Bowden - The State is trying to make a bargain. 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - It is not trying to make a bargain. South Australia is quite prepared to drop the agreement at once. 4337 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - Them why should it not do so? 4337 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr HUTCHISON - The Government which the honorable member is following, though not so docilely as some honorable gentlemen, regards the offer of South Australia as a magnificent one. Obviously, there is no cohesion in the Fusion party. Its members have no principles in common. 4338 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Is the Labour party united on this question? Mi. HUTCHISON.- It is not one which is affected by our platform. The Government is doing all it can to carry the agreement, but it has no command over its followers. Although I have here a mass of information, it would, under the circumstances, be a waste of time to read it. I express extreme disappointment at the manner in which this great national issue has been dealt with. The Territory cannot be developed by the construction of railways outside it. By refusing to agree to the transfer, the peopling, of the Territory will be deferred, probably for many years. If we have to fear invasion at any point, it is certainly in the north, where we can strengthen ourselves only by increasing our population. I hope that South Australia will not consent to a modification of the agreement, but that she will retain possession of the Territory, making a railway from the MacDonnell Ranges, and, later, extending it to Pine Creek. It is only a matter of time when the Territory will be as valuable, to the State as it would be to the Commonwealth. It has hitherto not been greatly developed, because the State has an enormous area, with a population of only 400,000, and has required all her resources, to develop the .southern latitudes apart altogether from the northern. She is progressing so rapidly, however, that I am sure that the day is not far distant when she will rejoice that the Commonwealth Parliament rejected this agreement. 4338 KFP Wakefield ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER . - If I may be permitted to refer briefly to the general principles that have been raised during this debate, without being charged with special pleading for South Australia, as opposed to national considerations, I should like to make a few observations. I am not going to deal broadly with the question, because I recognise that there is no chance of this agreement being accepted by the Parliament, and, contrary to the expectation of some honorable members, I am delighted that that is the position. 4338 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Then why do the Government waste time in proceeding further with this Bill? 4338 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am not responsible for what the Government are doing, but I claim that they are discharging their duty as honorable men. The debate on this Bill took place for the most part before I entered the House. I have, however, read the Hansard reports of the proceedings, and desire to compliment the Minister of External Affairs on the very generous speech which he made in moving the second reading of the Bill. The honorable gentleman certainly lifted the question far above party politics or parochial considerations. I have also to congratulate the honorable member for Grey, who has> had a considerable experience in a good deal of the Northern Territory, and is therefore as well able to speak with authority on this subject as are most honorable members. Whilst, generally speaking, I do not complain of the tenor of the speeches that have been made, I certainly take exception to that delivered this morning by the honorable member for Parkes ; I have heard nothing for a long time resembling the inaccuracies it contained. I am sure that when the honorable member proceeds, if he thinks it worth while, to have his facts confirmed or otherwise, he will be the first to regret having made a speech for which there can be no justification. I speak as one who was for five years Minister of Railways in South Australia, and as a resident for nearly, thirty years of a junction town on the Great Northern Railway. That being so, I think that the honorable member for Parkes will take my word as to the actual position, as against the statements of some of the experts to whom he has referred. The honorable member said that the railway to Oodnadatta had been built for thirty years. As a matter of fact, it was opened only some seventeen or eighteen years ago. 4338 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Portion of it had been constructed before then. 4338 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The complete railway was opened only seventeen or eighteen years ago; but the first section, extending from Port Augusta to Quorn, was built about twenty-eight or thirty years ago. The criticism which the honorable member and others have indulged in, in regard to the character of the line, is entirely inaccurate. It has been said that the speed of travelling on it is something like 15 miles an hour. As a matter of fact, I have travelled over it many times at a speed of 40 and 45 miles an hour. 4339 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - What is the weight of the rails? Mr. RICHARD (FOSTER.- Forty-one and a half pounds, I think ; but I will ascertain the weight and will presently give the honorable member the information. 4339 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Does the honorable member say that 4i1-lb. iron rails are safe for fast travelling? 4339 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Those rails were laid down before I had any official experience of the railways of the State, and it comes to me as a surprise to learn that they are of iron. I understood that the greater part of them were steel rails, but I would point out to the honorable member that rails, whether of iron or steel, that were made twenty years ago, are infinitely better than the rails that we obtain to-day. As to the life of the line, let me tell honorable members that we have in South Australia a narrow gauge - 3 ft. 6 in. - line constructed twenty years ago, on "which 40-lb. rails were used, until some twelve months since, and that over it has been carried the largest and heaviest traffic known in any part of Australia. That being so, the statements which have been made as to the character of the railway to Oodnadatta, and the length of its life, are as inaccurate and misleading as any of which one could conceive. It is almost impossible to deal satisfactorily with a question of this kind, unless we have absolute and reliable data supplied for the guidance of honorable members by the Government of South Australia on the one side, and on behalf of the Commonwealth on the other. Should this question ever be reconsidered by this Parliament, it will be desirable to have fair and reliable data, such as have been submitted to us, by one of the contracting parties - South Australia - and that those data should be checked by independent experts representing the Commonwealth. If that were done we should have a fair and solid basis on which to "work. I am sure that honorable members will not charge me with anything in the nature of a biased advocacy of this agreement, since, personally, I am utterly opposed to it. A very large section, if not a majority of the people of South Australia are not in favour of the agreement, and I hold the view that if it is rejected, as it will be, by this House, there will not be any great sorrow on their part. This agreement, so far as South Australia is concerned, represents absolutely the irreducible minimum. If this Parliament is not prepared to accept it, the sooner South Australia knows that the better it will be, both for that State and the Commonwealth. I wish now to refer briefly to the strange and inaccurate ideas formed by some honorable members as to the real character of the Northern Territory, which I am confident will be one of our richest assets- of the future. What is offered to the Federal Government is an enormous area of land, with infinite possibilities - an area larger than any which is to be found unpeopled in any other part of the world. The greater portion of it must one day belong to, and be controlled and developed by, the Commonwealth, not only because of its great productive possibilities, but because the defence of Australia will never be completed unless it is developed. 4339 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Was the honorable member ever in the Territory? 4339 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I have been within a short distance of the MacDonnell Ranges, but fox nearly thirty years I have lived in Quorn, and during that time have met continually drovers, pastoralists, and others on their way from the Territory to town. I should, therefore, be able to speak with as much authority on this subject as those honorable members who have seen only the northern part of the Territory. During half a lifetime I have constantly been coming into contact, not only with explorers, who have only one idea of the country, out with men who have been carrying on its development; and, generally speaking, there is only one opinion expressed by them as to its great possibilities. Some honorable members consider that the figures available with regard to stock on the runs are not such as might reasonably be expected of country such as this is claimed to be. But honorable members should be made acquainted with the conditions that have been operating, and operating largely, in the direction of retarding development. If we go back to the time when the railway to Oodnadatta was completed, examine the records as to the station developments, and the number of stock carried, what do we find? In the early nineties, the price of stock fell to such a low dead level that pastoralists, even in settled districts, were in many cases practically ruined. It was in 1893 that two train-loads of cattle from the north - the finest cattle that were ever taken to a market in Australia - were submitted to auction in the Adelaide market, and realized prices that did not pay the expenses of transport. The stock agents to whom they were consigned had to send to the owners for a cheque to cover the expenses. That was the experience of cattle station-owners all over Australia. Not much encouragement was then offering, for the development of station properties, particularly when development meant heavy cost, owing to the absence of railway facilities beyond Oodnadatta. Again, in later times, when the prices of stock were considerably higher, and became, indeed, almost abnormally high, there was no possibility of an extension of holdings in the Territory, because dealings in land were held up by the Government. In the first place, South Australia proposed to develop the country by means of a land grant railway, and areas were consequently withdrawn from allotment. Later on, in connexion with the intention of the Government to transfer the Territory to the Commonwealth, settlement was again held up. But for that fact, during the last six or seven years there would have been big station developments in the Northern Territory. Those who know anything of "the country are aware that owners of cattle-stations there of late years have been making fortunes. They have been taking advantage of the high price of meat, and have been coining money by the sale of _ not only store, but fat cattle. Let me again remind honorable members, and particularly the honorable member for Parkes, that over this railway, which is in such a "dilapidated" condition, every week, three, and sometimes five, specials travel, carrying fat cattle, and that those big cattle specials run over portions of the line, ' not at 15 miles an hour, but up to 30 and 35 miles an hour. Some of the cattle are trucked at Hergott Springs from the Cooper Creek country, and others are trucked at Oodnadatta, the head of the line. 4340 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - Hergott is the chief trucking place. 4340 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Hergott is the chief trucking place from.' Queensland, while Oodnadatta and Mount Dutton, within about 28 miles of Oodnadatta, are the chief trucking places for cattle at the head of the line. The honorable member for Parkes, again on the authority of some "experts," who evidently do not know anything about the country, refers to a lot of it as fourth-rate desert. But South Australia, when she pushed on the construction of the railway, and reached Oodnadatta, had practically got over the worst of the country. Let me tell the honorable member that in 1896, when Australia was in the grip of a big drought, and some of the best agricultural districts in Australia were face to face with failure, Oodnadatta and the country round it was receiving and depasturing' no less than 7,000 draught horses, belonging to the farmers down south, which had been sent up there to save their lives. 4340 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - That is no argument for the whole line. 4340 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am simply saying that that applies to Oodnadatta, and the argument for the whole line is infinitely stronger. 4340 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - It applies to the worst part of it. 4340 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It applies to the worst part of the line. That shows how necessary it is for this House, when dealing with a question of this kind, to be furnished with unbiased expert opinion. The Federal Government will never again have an opportunity to take this territory over from South Australia on the terms submitted in the agreement. 4340 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Does the honorable member think that South Australia will carry out the line as proposed in the agreement ? 4340 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I think South Australia will not only continue the line, but will include it in the public works policy of next year. 4340 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr Palmer - Would not that be a good thing from the point of view of Australian; development ? 4340 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Possibly it would, and I shall indicate what will1 probably be the basis of a future agreement, if any other agreement is submitted' for the consideration of the Federal Parliament. South Australia will, and ought to, determine, once and for all, that she will never give away the MacDonnell Range country. Instead of being waste land, as the honorable member for Parkes says, that part represents the. finest pastoral country in the world for a big area, with the finest climate in' the world. I recommend the honorable member for Parkes, if he wants to recruit his health, to spend1 three months there. If he did, he would' come back delighted, and paint to this House pictures in far more glowing colours than the honorable member for Grey could! ever use. I am speaking now fully conscious of the fact that the agreement is very shortly to be rejected, but South Australia ought never again to suggest losing control of the MacDonnell Range country. Its pastoral* possibilities are marvellous. People have not the remotest idea of its capabilities, both for cattle raising and fattening, and also for sheep. 4341 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Is it being used to-day ? 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It is being used considerably, but not one tithe as much as it will be used when railway facilities are extended to the MacDonnell Ranges, so that stock may be got away. 4341 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Stock can be driven. 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Fat sheep cannot be travelled long distances to the markets. If we want to fully develop the best stations in the interior, we must have railways, and from that point of view railway communication will pay. As regards agriculture, I know it is a long way from the sea-board, and that freightage charges would be so great that I put agriculture out of the question for the present, although I believe that in the future there will be agricultural operations there. I am sure that the conditions of climate, soil, and rainfall' are more favorable than they are in immense areas now settled and growing wheat in other parts of Australia. 4341 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Is it not a fact that the Port Augusta to Oodnadatta railway involves South Australia' in an annual loss of £80,000 ? 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The annual loss is between £60,000 and £80,000, but that is one of the greatest justifications for South Australia tackling the development of the Northern Territory by continuing the line northwards, and turning her present loss into a gain. The honorable member for Parkes says that South Australia's blunders should not be covered up by forcing the Federal Parliament to take over the country on the terms of the agreement suggested by South Australia and agreed to by the Federal Government. But I do not know that South Australia has blundered. 4341 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Let us say she has made an unsuccessful venture. 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - South Australia ought to receive the commendation of everybody in Australia for the position she has taken up and the pluck she has shown in dealing with her northern problem. Some forty years ago when she had a mere handful of people she spanned the continent with the electric wire - a work which should always be remembered, and is remembered by all reasonable people, to her credit. That work might have been regarded at the time by critics as an exceedingly risky venture. At all events, it was a very plucky one ; but look at the successful result of it to-day. It is also a question whether, from a national point of view, the construction of the railway line- from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta should be regarded as an unsuccessful venture. I do not refer to the conditions obtaining to-day at the head of the line, but only twelve or eighteen months ago the American Fleet and the people of Melbourne were fed with fat beef from that very country. If South. Australia had to face the work again, she would, from the point of view of national development, do what she did before. Her people are now only beginning to realize the possibilities of that country, and I believe no more popular public works policy could be submitted to them next year than the completion of the line from Oodnadatta, to the MacDonnell Ranges. 4341 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - But they will not do it. 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - If I know anything about South. Australia, I say she will do it. I know that the producers are red-hot in their view that South Australia should have an opportunity to do it. So far as the future is concerned, I believe that South Australia ought to say to the Federal Government: - "We can handle and develop the country up to the twenty-second parallel" - not the twenty-sixth, where the boundary exists to-day - " but a.ll the rest of the country beyond the twenty - second parallel is too distant from the Seat of Government' at Adelaide, and presents altogether too many difficulties for this State to handle." She should therefore suggest that the Federal Government should accept the country north of the MacDonnell Ranges, leaving the country to the south to be retained and developed by herself. 4341 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr Johnson - In other words, South Australia is to pick the eyes out of the country, and leave the Commonwealth the rest. 4341 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - But it has been argued in this House as a reason for rejecting the agreement that there is nothing but desert and desolation to the south of the MacDonnell Ranges. Why, then, are all my honorable friends from Queensland and New South Wales so anxious to have a finger in that pie? The honorable member's interjection is altogether in favour of the Federal Parliament accepting this agreement. This Parliament does not realize the inheritance which is being offered to it. If it did, it would at once accept it. If the agreement is rejected, generations to come will say that this Parliament consisted of the biggest blunderers that were ever known. It will be said that if the members of this Parliament did not know the value of that country, they ought to have ascertained it, and that if they did not know (hat they had in their hands so great a gift, they ought to have known it. The dividing line along the twenty-second parallel will not only definitely determine how much of the country South Australia can handle properly, . but will mark the division between the temperate and tropical zones. I would transfer to the Commonwealth in the area to the north of that parallel a land which is tropical rather than temperate. That reminds me of the statement made by the Prime Minister last night in answer to the Leader of the Opposition regarding the sugar industry. If the difficulties in the way of development in a similar climate in Queensland are so great, those that will naturally arise in the development of the Northern Territory will be infinitely greater. The Queensland country in question is nearer the Seat of Government, and its development can be more easily prosecuted. The dividing line which I suggest would not' only determine which portion of country South Australia can conveniently and effectively occupy and develop, but, as I have said, it will divide the temperate from the tropical zone, and, looking info the future, I say that that dividing line can be continued from east to west, so as to make a similar division across the Commonwealth. The country to the north could then be constituted a separate State, subject to legislation suitable for the development of a tropical country. In my opinion, that would be a solution of many difficulties, and would meet with the almost unanimous approval of the people of South Australia. If there were any possibility of the adoption of the agreement, I should be prepared to deal with the whole question now as a representative of South Australia, but, knowing the fate of the agreement, and holding the convictions that T do about the value of the MacDonnell Range country, and about the reasons which should prompt every patriotic South Australian to stick to it through thick and thin, I could not advocate its cession to the Commonwealth. If the position were otherwise than it is, I should challenge many of the figures which have been submitted, and statements which have been made, and analyze them from beginning to end. The position now is that this Bill is likely to be rejected. If it is to be rejected, the sooner that is done the better. I know very well that the people of South Australia desire to adopt some other course to deal with this country, and to deal with it effectively. They do not wish to shackle it, but to develop it. The Commonwealth Parliament should not desire to retard the progress of the northern part of the Territory. It should be their desire to develop it. If we do not do so, and any trouble should arise in the near future, it is bound to be concentrated there. It is just there that the weakest of all our weak places from the point of view of defence exists, and this consideration should arouse the immediate attention of the Commonwealth Government and Parliament. I say that, regarding the question from the highest moral plane, the only right to ownership is occupation. In the Northern Territory we have a country that is not only big as a pastoral and agricultural country, but that is as large as the territories of several nations of the Old World. It is absolutely unpeopled and unoccupied, and if we do not establish our right to its ownership, some of the nations of the East will be trooping in there, and if they once get in they will take a lot of getting out. From the point of view of defence, therefore, the Commonwealth must people this country, and the sooner we secure possession of it the better. Then if the possibilities of the development of similar country in North Queensland are such as I rejoice to believe they are, and the efforts made to turn these great productive areas to profitable account are as successful as similar efforts have been in that State, there will be a bigger future for the Northern Territory under wise administration than the most sanguine of us to-day anticipate. 4342 KXK Gwydir 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER .- I have been very much amused during this debate to note the enthusiasm displayed by some honorable members, who apparently are prepared to go to any length to bolster up a proposition which really ought to be discussed calmly and deliberately. I fully appreciate the obligation of the Commonwealth in respect to the Northern Territory, from the stand-point of defence. I appreciate also the effort made by South Australia to render some service in developing the Territory- I cannot congratulate the people of that State upon the wisdom displayed in undertaking a task which it should have been obvious when the South Australian Government undertook it was greater than they could possibly hope to perform. It is useless for honorable members to rave about the possibilities of the Northern Territory for all purposes. There is a vast area of land there unpopulated. We have been invited by many honorable members to believe that it would be an easy matter for the Commonwealth to settle a population permanently in the Northern Territory, and so secure the safety of the Commonwealth. I am one of those who believe that nothing of the kind can be done. I do not believe that the possibilities of the Northern Territory are as they have been described. In my opinion the country does not offer sufficient inducements for the permanent settlement of many people of the white race. If the Northern Territory is to be populated by white people, it must be by the gradual overflow of population from the coastal regions. Men require to be acclimatised to enable them to live in such a country. Go where one will in the Northern Territory he will find that every white man there would be glad to get out of the country as early as he could. 4343 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Nonsense. 4343 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Government officials who are compelled to remain there, and people who have invested money in the country, were the only persons I could find who were willing to stay in it one day longer than was absolutely necessary. 4343 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - That is totally incorrect. The honorable member's inquiry must have been made from only one source. 4343 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - My inquiries were as general as were those of the honorable member for Boothby. The difference in opinion between us is due to the fact that I ' listened to both sides of the question, whilst the honorable member apparently listened to only one. 4343 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - The honorable member appears to have heard only one side. 4343 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I made it my business to hear both sides; and I heard the observations of men who confessed that they remained in the Northern Territory only because they could not get away. 4343 JWC 0 0 CARR, Ernest Mr Carr - My experience there was different. 4343 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The honorable member has a perfect right to say what his experience was. I am giving mine. What did we find at Palmerston? We found that there is only one white man to every eleven coloured people. This was the result of many years of effort on the part of the South Australian Government to settle that portion of the Northern Territory which is supposed to abound in mineral wealth, is to be awaiting only the miner's pick to disclose the richest mineral treasures to be found on the Australian continent. Most of the white people there, apart from the public officials, are engaged in business, and "there are very few of them, because most of the business is done by coloured aliens. We found that many of the miners, were such men as are to be found in the back-blocks of Australia, who have been driven further back by circumstances over which they had no control - to seek a refuge where they would not be known and would probably remain undiscovered. There is' always a certain number of the population who are seeking shelter in these remote parts to start life afresh, or to forget their early environment. What are the possibilities of this great country ? If honorable members will look at the maps furnished by South Australian officers, they will find that, after all is said and done, there is only a very limited portion of the Northern Territory that can be described even as good grazing land. As for its fitness for agriculture, that is only mere imagination. What many honorable members have said as to the possibilities pf agriculture in the Northern Territory, jil the more favoured areas, cannot \y proved. Let me say at once that I believe there are more monuments of failure in the "Northern Territory than are to be found in any other country I know of. Monuments of failure of effort are to be seen on every hand by those who look for them, or who desire to learn the actual character of the country. To give one illustration, I may inform honorable members that a gentleman- went up to the Northern Territory in the early days, when it was supposed to be a pastoral Eldorado. He hoped to acquire a very large area, on which to run cattle, and, later, to graze sheep. He took 5,000 head of cattle with him, and secured, some hundreds of square miles of country on the Beatrice Hills, on the Adelaide River. He built a huge head station and out-stations. The result, according to the statement made to me by a man on the spot, who knew what he was talking about, was that after five or six years of strenuous effort, without having realized anything, this man mustered what was left of his stock, and was glad to get away with 2,000 or 3,000 of the 5,000 he took with him. 4344 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Beatrice Hills is right on the coast. It is rice country, not cattle country. 4344 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It is 100 miles up the Adelaide River, and it was considered cattle country in those days by men who had had many years' experience of the pastoral industry in Australia. Of what use is it for honorable members to try to misrepresent the position? I am not a South Australian representative. I went up to the Northern Territory to learn something of its history and possibilities, and I did not go there with my mind made up that it was destined for a glowing future. I went there to look into the subject for myself, that I might be able to form a judgment which would guide me in dealing with it in the future. When I was in the country, all that remained of the efforts of the man to whom I have referred were the ruins of the chimney of his homestead, and one of the members of the party took a photograph of it. To get there, we went through country which, viewed from the hills, might tempt any man to invest in it as pastoral country. We had the greatest, work to find our way through the tall spear grass, which was growing 7 feet and 8 feet high around us, whilst underfoot w,as bog. This is the country in which buffaloes are supposed to thrive, and where the honorable member for Boothby had the pleasure of hunting them. I did not go there to hunt buffaloes, but to get information. We drove through a district in which a Victorian had taken up over 300 square miles of country for pastoral purposes. After spending a large sum. of money there, he abandoned the place' in disgust, handing it over, with the cattle which remained, to his manager. We had a cup of tea at the manager's house, and found that he is now driving the mails, to eke out an existence. 4344 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - He said that all that he needs is a railway following the straight route. 4344 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - They all said that. They have the railway on the brain. Everywhere those who are connected with the land favour the expenditure of Government money on railways which may increase the value of their property. They- do not consider whether a line will pay or not ; what they look at is the possibility of getting rid of something which, without a railway, they cannot use. I have been told since I returned from the Northern Territory that, in the country which I did not see, there are great possibilities. But I spoke to men who had lived in that country for years, and got their opinions about it. They told me that it would never be used in our time, and possibly during the next century, for anything but cattle breeding. Notwithstanding the wonderful pastoral possibilities of which we have heard so much, any man can take up land in the Territory for is. per square mile, which is little enough for those who think that in a few years they could make a fortune there by following pastoral pursuits. Not many men have made fortunes there, even in the most favoured parts. There are men like Mr. Buchanan, who breeds cattle there, and tops them up for the market 011 the luscious feed of the plains in the northwest part of New South Wales, who perhaps do not lose money, but the prospects are not sufficient to warrant the expenditure of millions in building the proposed railway. A line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek would not pay working expenses for many years to come. 4344 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - It would never do so. 4344 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - That is my opinion. I have heard of men risking their lives to cross some parts of the Northern Territory, but I do not wish to paint- too black a picture. In my opinion, the possibilities of the Territory are not so great as we have been led to believe them to be. I do not know why there has been so much exaggeration. The mineral wealth of the Territory is said to be very great, but we found there more monuments to the folly of the British investor than in any other place which I have visited. There are big "shows," where machinery has been erected costing thousands of pounds, but so far as I can ascertain, no dividends have been returned to the shareholders. At the railway station at Port Darwin we found great drums and castings of all kinds lying in the yard. This was machinery ordered by some expert, of which delivery had never been taken. At the time it was being painted to preserve it from the weather, There is gold in the Northern Territory, but only in little runners. There is no reef of any breadth, or going down any distance. When I was there, they were boring to try the ground at a depth below that to which they had then mined, but, although the drill passed through some fissures in which there was gold, the prospect is not good. I went down several copper mines, and found that there is not enough ore to give a profitable return, unless the price of copper increases fabulously. When we were in the Territory, copper was very high, and, therefore, men were investing their money in copper mines, but my investigations corroborated the information I had received respecting these mines. The people with whom I was in conversation were all in favour of the transfer of the Territory to the Commonwealth, because they have no hope of South Australia doing anything for them. They hope that the Commonwealth will relieve them of the responsibilities in which they have become involved. At Pine Creek elaborate machinery has been erected, and a little cyaniding is done for a few Chinamen, who are fossicking about, finding gold in fissures, where, no doubt, the deposits are rich, but so much intervening material has to be removed that no one else would think the gain worth the trouble. Indeed, without a cyaniding works at hand, there would be no gain even to Chinamen. We have heard about dairy farming being possible. But during the rainy season, when feet, not inches, of rain are recorded, agriculture is impossible. Of course, rice might be grown. 4345 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - How far inland did the honorable member go - 100 miles? 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - More than that. I should have gone still further, had there been vehicles to carry the party. As for settling immigrants in that country- 4345 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - New chums could not be sent there. 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - They would have to be acclimatized first. There are many drawbacks to life in the Northern Territory. Had we gone there two or three weeks later, we should have been there in the best season of the year, but, as it was, the conditions were good, for the Territory. Nevertheless, we suffered greatly from mosquitos, sandflies, and other insect pests, which torture the inhabitants during ten months of the year. 4345 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - I am afraid that the honorable member viewed the country from the feather-bed stand-point. 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I am not a feather-bed man, as the honorable member knows. The honorable member for Maribyrnong could describe more graphically than I can the sufferings inflicted by insects, but I carried the marks of their bites for three months after my return. Any one with a thin skin suffers terribly. Of course, the people there did their best to put their house in order in anticipation of the Parliamentary visit, and everything was at its best. They showed us what had been done in the Palmerston Gardens, where thousands of pounds have been spent in experimenting in connexion with' the production of cotton and other tropical plants. 4345 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Nonsense. Only one white man and a couple of Chinamen are employed there. 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER -Additional labour has been employed from time to time, and scientific experts have been engaged to show how crops. like hemp and flax may be obtained. 4345 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Last year there was an expenditure of only £300 or £400. 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - That may be. On the gardens they are not spending as much as they used to do, but thousands of pounds have been spent in getting them into good order. We were shown from a distance a magnificent avenue of cocoanut trees as high as the roof of this chamber, but, although our guides drew attention to their magnificent foliage, and the inviting shade which they offered, they did not drive us through the avenue. Being somewhat curious, I availed myself of an opportunity to walk through it, and then discovered that every cocoanut tree was riddled with white ants. These ants are to be seen on every hand. Even a small plant cannot be grown, save in a kerosene tin, raised from the ground by a couple of bricks. Ant hills are more numerous than shrubs in that part of the Territory through which I travelled. As for trees, I saw only a few. 4345 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - I remember when the neighbourhood of Brisbane was partly covered with ant hills, and even now weatherboard houses there have to be built on stumps surmounted by copper caps. 4345 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - But there were never, in the neighbourhood of Brisbane, ant hills 25 feet high, nor ants with such a well-developed boring apparatus as that of the ants of the Northern. Territory. As little timber as possible is used in the construction of buildings in the Territory. The floors of dwelling houses are of concrete, and the walls are of iron, the studs alone being made of timber. 4346 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - I think the honorable member is suffering from white ants ! 4346 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I sympathize with the honorable member, who, I am sure, is in earnest in his advocacy of this agreement, but who, as a representative of the Territory is simply carried away by its assumed importance. Perhaps if it were my electorate I might find myself in the same position, but I do not think that I could possibly draw such a picture of it as the honorable member has done. In that part of the Territory which I visited, the absence of timber is a living witness to the absolute uselessness of the country for productive purposes. 4346 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - We were told that the railway sleepers were largely obtained from th6 forests in the Territory. ' 4346 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - There may be such forests, but none exist in that part of the Territory which I visited, nor was I able to find any one there who could tell me of any heavily-timbered country within its boundaries. I did hear that there was a belt of cypress pine on one part of the coast, but I could obtain no information as to its extent. 4346 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - The honorable member is speaking from a fourteen days' experience of the Territory; I invite him to read Searcy's book, written as the result of an experience of fourteen years. 4346 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I have read it, and know that other writers on the subject do not agree with the views of the author. I am quite prepared, however, to act on my own experience. That part of the Territory which I visited certainly does not possess such possibilities of production, as have been suggested. Even the advocates of this agreement have to admit that the bulk of the Territory comprises inferior, and, in some parts, very . inferior land. There is only a small section of good grazing country. It is coloured green on the map exhibited in the chamber. 4346 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - That is exceptionally good country. 4346 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It is good pastoral land, and might, perhaps, be suitable for sheep farming. Some people think that if cattle were turned out to eat down the rank vegetation, which- is the result of the heavy rainfall and the intense heat, large areas might be made available for sheep farming. The undergrowth, however, grows so rapidly, and is so rank, that it would not be edible. In the dry season, black boys are employed to burn it off, and a few tufts of good grass spring up round the roots of the spear grass. But how long would that keep stock alive? What would be the position during the wet season ? 4346 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - That criticism does not apply to the area coloured green on the map. 4346 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - No; the well-grassed lands are within the more limited rainfall districts. It is preposterous, however, to talk of establishing dairy farms in the Northern Territory. We are told that large areas there are suitable for irrigation. Water is certainly available, but at what cost, and with what possibility of success could irrigation be carried on ? The cost of settling the country is beyond all comprehension. Before South Australia took over its administration, the British Government endeavoured to settle colonists in different parts of it, and there can be seen to-day the evidences of its failure. I warn the Government that they do not realize what would be the cost of developing the Northern Territory in the way that some honorable members have advocated. South Australia has incurred big liabilities in connexion with the Territory, which she has no right to carry, and neither of the suggested railways would pay working expenses. A heavy annual loss would undoubtedly be incurred. Some honorable members say that we should take over the Territory, and construct the proposed transcontinental railway to insure the safety of Australia. I am one of those who think that our defence against an attack from the north lies in the vast stretch, of almost inaccessible territory between Pine Creek and Oodnadatta. If we wish to keep Australia secure against invasion from the north, we shall never build a railway from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek until people have overflowed from the settled districts into areas now thought to be practically uninhabitable. If troops from an eastern country were landed at Palmerston, or some other northern port, they could not be marched across the Territory, and be of any service in attacking even such a force as we could muster to meet them on the fringe of our populated area. But if we built a railway to Pine Creek, we should make it easy for an enemy to carry thousands of troops rapidly,' and without inconvenience, across the Territory to the borders of our populated districts. Therefore, the defence of Australia, so far as an attack from the north is concerned. depends, not upon our building the line, but in our refraining from doing so. Such a line would not pay, and, if it were constructed, it would be a national danger; it would prove a source of weakness rather than of strength. The proposal is that people from the Old World should be induced to settle in the Territory. Life there, to men fresh from colder climates, would be unbearable. God help emigrants from the Old World who are settled there ! I believe, however, that the Northern Territory will never be populated, except by an overflow from our coastal areas. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m. 4347 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The honorable member for Boothby tried to draw a comparison between Northern Queensland and the Northern Territory. I can remember the time when Northern Queensland was regarded as a country to which, on account of malaria, and other drawbacks, it was undesirable to pay a lengthened visit, but there is a mighty difference to-day between Northern Queensland and the Northern Territory as a whole. An indication of the bounty of nature is to be found in Northern Queensland in the number of edible fruits and roots that grow there, and upon which the natives can live. But what is the position of the Northern Territory in that regard? Its native population has been degenerating and decreasing for years. The experience of New Guinea and1 the Pacific Islands generally shows that -where the land is fertile in fruit products, it supports a large native population. Judged from that stand-point, the Northern Territory stands self-condemned. It is well known that for many years past its native population have been : forced by necessity to devise means to restrict their (birth-rate in order to insure an adequate food supply for themselves. A country that cannot support a native population with' its own natural food products stands self-condemned, and whereever you move in the Northern Territory, you can see evidences that that is the case there. The population, compared with the area of the country is meagre, and has "been steadily diminishing, not as the result of the influx of civilized peoples, as has "been the case in other countries, but because of the- scarcity of native food. If the Northern Territory cannot produce natural food in plenty, all the predictions about flourishing orchards and great dairying industries become so many figments of the 1 imagination. The most we can expect from the Territory is that the best of it will be available for cattle raising, and, perhaps, a limited portion for sheep rearing, but there is no possibility of successful agriculture, except to a very limited degree, even in the better class of country which has been reported upon by various officers. We have heard a lot of talk about what can be done by means of irrigation to produce fodder, and turn out butter, if it can be kept solid enough, for export to other countries. In the part which some honorable members have referred to as a possible dairying district, the cost of refrigerators would be a serious addition to the ordinary expenditure. I cannot see any possibility of all these things being done in, our time. 4347 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Is not nearly all the dairy production of Australia from artificial grasses ? 4347 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It is only. an assumption to say that this country will grow artificial grasses. 4347 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - It is being done. 4347 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I di'd not hear the honorable member give examples of it when addressing the House. If he had any reliable information on the subject, it was his duty to place it before the House when he was on his feet, and not to impart it by interjection at this stage. 4347 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - This seems to be the one piece of country that will produce nothing. 4347 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I have already admitted that it will produce white ants galore. It will also produce alligators, as the honorable member for Lang knows. It does not, and is not likely to, produce minerals in payable quantities. 4347 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - The Mount Wells tin mine is paying handsomely. 4347 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The tin ore that we saw was poor in the main. There were some better patches, but the lode was limited. I had a look at the Mount Wells tin lode, which was worked by English capital for years until those interested got tired of it. They then handed it over on tribute to some one who was working it with Chinese labour, and we saw some grass huts in which the Chinese lived as they usually live. The mine was returning a dividend at the time, because the price of tin was exceptionally high, and the labour the cheapest that could be got. That is a typical example of what one honorable member put forward as glorious illustrations of the mineral possibilities of the Territory. Take the West Arm, where some of our friends were struck with the marvellous possibilities of the Golden Boulder claim. I have had some experience in both reef and alluvial mining, and I could see no possibility of an El Dorado in that district. Since then, it has been proved that everything was dressed in its Sunday clothes for the reception of the visiting party. The best side was shown to us on all occasions. In one place, the tin deposits were piled up in heaps as big as this table, with the best pieces outside, just as a fellow selling firewood always puts the pieces of box on the outside of his load. That was the sort of thing that was shown to us as an example of the mineral wealth of the West Arm. Since that time the price of tin has fallen considerably, and we hear very little nowadays about the wealth that is won from the tin deposits in that locality. Work cannot be carried on there in the wet season because the mines are flooded so badly that it is useless to attempt to clear them of the water until the dry season comes round again. That is another difficulty that is not met with in mining in other parts of the Continent. 4348 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - If what the honorable member says be true, the mines could not be unwatered with the windlass and bucket appliances that we saw there. 4348 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It is most amusing to notice how the representatives of South Australia try to minimize any argument based on the facts as they were presented to us on the spot. 4348 L1N 0 0 WILSON, John Gratton Dr Wilson - If the mines were so good as they say, why was not a better class of machinery erected ? 4348 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I have already alluded to the fact that in no other place in Australia can one see so many monuments of the folly of the British investor. 4348 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - There is no guarantee that the gold is there. 4348 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - And there is no evidence that it is there. What evidence there is indicates that it is not there in payable quantities. It is the same with tin, copper, and wolfram. In every class of mineral deposit that has been tested in the Territory, there is no prospect of the country becoming to the Commonwealth an asset which would justify the expenditure which' it is now asked to launch out upon. 4348 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - Do not worry ; South Australia will be satisfied. 4348 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - We are now told that South Australia is going to do wonders, and is not particular about our accepting the agreement. I have always said that in the interests of Australia generally, we have no right to burden South Australia with the Territory, but it is not the gift that South Australia reckons it is. It should be given to us free of all conditions. Let us take it over, and do what wc can to develop it, and relieve South Australia of the incubus. South Australia knows that it is a very heavy burden. 4348 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Would the Commonwealth like to have a bonus from South Australia with it ? 4348 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - We are Federal enough not to impose on South Australia by asking for anything unreasonable, but no State has a right to demand that the Commonwealth shall bind itself down to spend ,£2,000,000 or £3,000,000 in building a railway, not where it may think desirable, but where the State wants it to be. The South Australian proposal is preposterous, and would, in effect, take away from the Commonwealth its right to manage its own business. We are told that some company is now anxious to build a land grant railway. God help any company that does so, especially along the route indicated by the Government of South Australia. Such an undertaking would spell ruin to it under the present industrial conditions. If it could employ cheap coloured labour, it might pay its way, but no more. But no company would be mad enough to enter into such ait undertaking in view of the conditions in the Commonwealth laws with which it would have to comply. I tell the Government that it would be sheer folly to build a railway from Pine Creek to any part of Australia. The security of Australia is best obtained by not building such a railway. The country lying between Pine Creek and the fringe of our population constitutes the best buffer that we can possibly have until we can populate, by natural overflow, the parts adjacent to our settled districts. A garrison should undoubtedly be established at Port Darwin for purposes of observation, to enforce our immigration restriction laws, and! perhaps to prevent the landing of any alien force on the northern part of the continent. Even if an alien force did land there, they could not get to us without a railway. 4348 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Would it not save us a lot of expense if we gave the Northern? Territory up to the Japanese? 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The Japanese are no more inclined than any other people to take something which is of no use. 4349 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - Give them a show, and see. 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Let me point out to the honorable member for Gippsland1 that to-day there are eleven coloured people to every 'white person in the Northern Territory. Yet those aliens have shown no inclination to utilize the land as they have done in other countries. 4349 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That statement is not accurate. 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The fact that a Chinaman has grown a few vegetables on some favoured spot does not establish the fact of agricultural development. 4349 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - There were£340,000 worth of exports last year for 1,100 people. 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I suppose those exports consisted chiefly of alligator skins and teeth. In any case, that amount of export trade is very small from so immense an area. It will be a sorry day for the Commonwealth if it ever attempts to give effect to the ideas promulgated by members who have advocated . the taking over of the Territory. I am prepared to . agree to the Commonwealth relieving South Australia of the incubus of the Territory, and utilizing it by gradually extending railways from the present State termini as additional land is brought under settlement. Further than that I am not prepared to go. In my opinion, immigrants will not go to the Northern Territory, because there are no inducements for doing so. The population is attracted to other parts of Australia by huge mineral deposits, but there is not that attraction in the Northern Territory. The existence of mineral wealth is alleged, but the hopes regarding it have been disappointed. I cannot see what other reason people would have for going there. 4349 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Does the honorable member think that the Commonwealth should take over the Territory ? 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - We are bound to relieve South Australia of the burden, if she is prepared to transfer it to the Commonwealth, but not under the conditions set forth in the agreement. Most of the land now occupied is leased for is. a square mile, which is not much for good country, and argues very little for the possibility of return on Commonwealth expenditure. 4349 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - There would be a bigger return if the land were cultivated. 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The honorable member must have viewed the Territory through coloured glasses. I ' saw nothing, and heard nothing, to lead me to regard it as likely to be very productive. The glowing and enthusiastic accounts of the honorable member for Wakefield did credit to him as a supporter of the position of South Australia. He told us that the State was injuring itself in making this offer, and that if we did not accept the offer now it would not be renewed. He made the Territory appear a veritable El Dorado. But he overdid his account. When he spoke of the marvellous productiveness of the soil, its marvellous wealth, the marvellous capabilities of the MacDonnell Range country and other marvels, I began to think that I was dreaming, and that my eyes had altogether deceived me. 4349 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - If there is no mineral wealth in the Northern Territory, how does the honorable member account for the fact that . £2,000,000 worth of gold has been obtained from it ? 4349 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - If that quantity of gold has been obtained, it has been obtained during a long series of years, and I should not be surprised to learn that some of it was first taken there. That is the only way in which I can understand the support which British investors have given to the mining "shows" floated in the Territory. I shall vote for the second' reading of the Bill, so that the Commonwealth may relieve South Australia of its responsibilities regarding 'the . Territory. Beyond that I am not prepared to go. 4349 KFP Wakefield ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER . - I stated this morning that the Oodnadatta railway track was laid with 40-lb. rails. I should have said that, with the exception of a few miles, 50-lb. steel! rails are in use. I make that statement on the authority of the South Australian Railways Commissioner. 4349 KW6 North Sydney FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON . - In the interests of South Australia, this Parliament should come to a decision on this important -question as soon as possible. Its settlement has been too long delayed. South Australia should know the views of the other States regarding its proposals. I would not accuse either the honorable member for Hindmarsh or the honorable member for Gwydir of wilful misrepresentation, but their accounts of the Northern Territory were absolutely contradictory. 4349 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - Because one of us knows something about it, while the other does not. 4350 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Quite so. But which honorable member are we to follow ? The honorable member for Hindmarsh pictured the country as a Paradise, possessing the healthiest climate in the world, where diseases known in other parts of Australia are not to be found, where the soil if " tickled with a hoe laughs into harvest " ; while the honorable member for Gwydir described it as a sort of Inferno, the resort of lost souls, who were only too anxious to get away. If they do not leave, it is either because they have not the means or because a goal is awaiting them in some other part of the Commonwealth. This conflict of testimony is the stranger because these two honorable members visited the Territory in company or within a short time of each other. One seemed to regard it as an Island of the Blessed, and the other as a sort of Sahara. I do not look upon it through the optimistic spectacles of the honorable member for Hindmarsh, nor through the pessimistic spectacles of the honorable member for Gwydir. The Territory has possibilities, remote rather than immediate, and will gradually respond to attempts to develop it. This development, I think, will lie steady, and cannot be forced, the tropical interior coming more and more into use as population increases in our coastal districts. That will be so with our tropical interiors generally. West of the Northern Territory there is an immense stretch of tropical country in Western Australia, and one can realize how little populated it is from the fact that it forms part of the constituency of Coolgardie, whose southern boundary is hundreds of miles distant. It is useless to say that the Northern Territory can be easily developed. If honorable members wish to know its present position, I refer them to the memorandum of the Minister. South Australia has tried to settle the Territory, and her efforts to make it progress have been commendable, but the results have not been satisfactory. In 1901 there were 1,055 Europeans and 3,041 coloured aliens in the Territory, while in 1908 the European population was 1,08 1 and the coloured alien population "had decreased to 1,892. These figures take no account of aborigines. During those seven years the white population was practically stationary. In 1907, of that population, there were 208 European- and 958 other miners, the latter mostly Chinese, while in the following year the European miners numbered only 150 and the others 674. In 1901 the imports of the Territory were valued at £106,000 and its exports at £302,000. In 1907 its imports had shrunk to £78,000 while its exports had increased to £345,000 worth. Independent of interest and sinking funds, the revenue of the Territory in 1903-4 was £57,000, and its expenditure £50,000; in 1904-5 the revenue was .£73,000, and the expenditure £5 1,000 ; in 1905-6 the revenue was £60,000 and the expenditure £69,000 ; in 1906-7 the revenue was £57,000, and the expenditure £71,000; and in 1907-8 the revenue was £56,000, and the expenditure £l2>000- Whereas in 1904-5 the revenue exceeded the expenditure by £22,000, in 1907-8 the expenditure, which steadily increased, exceeded the revenue by £16,000, a sign of retrogression rather than progress. Let us now look at the Pine Creek railway returns. Without debiting interest; the revenue from the railway in 1903-4 showed a balance over working expense of £3,787 ; in 1904-5 of .£2,360; in 1905-6 of £1,043 J in io°6-7 of £738 ;' and in 1907-8 of £402. If we take over the Territory Ave shall incur a considerable responsibility for development and a large liability due to annual loss. I do not say that that is ;i conclusive reason for not taking it over ; indeed, the present condition of the Territory is almost a reason for taking it over, so that the energies of the Commonwealth may be devoted to the development, which has hitherto been left to a State which in point of population is far from being the strongest of the six. But in considering the agreement, we have to consider, first whether the State is right in asking to be paid an equivalent of its accumulated deficits, and, in addition, interest, and even compound interest, on the amount. I wish to deal liberally with South Australia, and do not say I would refuse consideration to this item, but it is necessary to inquire how that claim is made up, whether it can be wholly justified, and, if not, how much of it should be paid. The honorable member for Wakefield has repeated a suggestion made by Mr. Parsons in a pamphlet quoted by the honorable member for Hindmarsh. In my opinion, it is desirable, in the interests of both the Commonwealth and South Australia, to give effect to that suggestion. I am totally opposed to committing the Commonwealth to the construction of any particular railway for the development of the Territory. One or two of the South Australian members, while claiming to deal with this subject wholly in the interests of the Commonwealth, do not credit other honorable members with being similarly inspired in their opposition to the project. In my opinion, a railway from Bourke through the back country of Queensland is eventually likely to be made in any case, and need not be specially considered in regard to the Territory. I do not say, that the Northern Territory could be better developed by that line than by a line through South Australia. Before we can decide questions of this kind we must have information from independent experts. 4351 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - The honorable member would not say that it is possible to develop one State by making a railway in another. 4351 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I am considering the development, not of South Australia, but of the Northern Territory, part of which might be developed by a line running into Queensland, though I am not now expressing any opinion on the subject. Possibly the Territory might be best developed by a number of short lines, running from the coast into the interior. I do not commit myself to an opinion, because I have not the information which enables me to do so. If South Australia retains the Territory, she will have the right to develop it in her own interest, though I do not think that a State will benefit permanently by compelling traffic to follow long inconvenient routes. It may thereby secure a temporary advantage, but its people will suffer in the long run. I have always opposed such a policy. South Australia will not act wisely in developing the Territory solely in her own interest. The proposal of the honorable member for Wakefield, that the State should develop the country as far as the MacDonnell Ranges, meets with my approval. I admit that we should treat South Australia rather unjustly if we took, over the whole of the Territory, including the MacDonnell Ranges, and refused to accept any responsibility for the losses incurred by her on the Port Augusta to Oodnadatta line. But if we gave her that portion of the Territory which the line was originally intended to serve - and it is said by advocates of the proposed transfer that that line will pay when it is extended to the MacDonnell Ranges - we should do her no injustice, and we should be, at ; the same time, free to develop the remainder of the Territory by constructing any line that we thought fit. 4351 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - But we should thus cut off South Australia from the Northern Territory. 4351 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Nature herself has done that. The outlet from, and inlet to, the Territory north of the MacDonnell Ranges is the north coast. It would be unprofitable to carry merchandise and stock from Adelaide to that part of the Territory, instead of by a shorter route from the north. 4351 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Does not that argument apply also to New South Wales and Queensland ? . 4351 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Certainly. Why does the honorable member ask that question? 4351 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Because some representatives of those States wish to have railways connecting with their systems. 4351 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I have already said that I object to a State constructing a railway with a view of diverting traffic from its natural course, over a long and expensive route. The natural outlet for the whole of the country north of the MacDonnell Ranges is the north coast. Circumstances to-day are entirely different from what they were when the line to Oodnadatta was constructed. 'At one time it was proposed that that railway should be part of a trans-continental line to be used for the carriage of oversea mails and pas.sengers. We are told to-day, however, and truthfully told, I think, that there is no hope of the line being used for that purpose; that Fremantle, being practically as near Colombo as is Port Darwin, preference must naturally be given ito a line from that point to Port Augusta. Such a line would not traverse the tropics, and consequently a journey along such a route would be more inviting (than would be a long trip across Central Australia. In the circumstances, therefore, I do not think that the criticisms that have been levelled at the character of the Oodnadatta to Port Augusta railway are fair. The line is quite sufficient for developmental purposes, and that is all that is claimed for it. 4351 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It is heavy enough to carry the traffic required of it. 4351 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - All the facts that I have been able ito gather show that it is quite sufficient for purely developmental purposes, and, therefore, I do not think it should have been subjected to the criticism that has been directed against it, nor do I believe that any extension of that line need be heavier than the present line. If we are to take over the Territory, in its own interests, as well as in the interests of the Commonwealth generally, we ought not to be committed to any project for the benefit of one particular State. We ought to have a free hand. After we have taken it over, we should be free to carefully examine its resources; to determine how they can be best developed ; to decide what railways would assist in that development, and what should -be their point of outlet. If we did that, and gave South Australia the control of the country as far north as the MacDonnell Ranges, so that it would have a chance of making the line to Oodnadatta a paying one, we should do justice to that State and 'to the Commonwealth. 4352 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Why has not South Australia built the proposed line to Pine Creek during all those years? 4352 KJ8 0 0 HUTCHISON, James Mr Hutchison - She has not had the money. 4352 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - South Australia has made wonderful efforts in connexion with the trans-continental telegraph line, and the construction of a transcontinental telegraph and railway ; she has done more than might reasonably have been expected of a State with her population. I have no doubt that she could now readily construct a railway between Oodnadatta and the MacDonnell Ranges. She would be quite able to develop the Territory between those two points, and the natural port for the greater part of that country would be. in the south. These are my reasons for objecting to the agreement as it stands. I shall support the second reading, because, like the honorable member for Gwydir, I am in favour of the Territory being taken over, but 1 object to the rigid conditions of the agreement, and will reserve to myself the right in Committee to support such amendments as will carry out the wishes I have expressed. 4352 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Does the honorable member think it possible to amend the agreement in Committee? 4352 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - It is only in that way that we shall be able to show what are our views. The honorable member said that the South Australian Government could gather from the speeches made during this debate the policy of which this House approves. I would remind him that varying opinions have been expressed. 4352 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE Smith - And the votes will differ on the several clauses of the agreement. 4352 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - We can arrive at the opinion of the House just as we do with regard to other Bills, in the Committee stage. 4352 KTT 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith - Could we incorporate in the agreement the proposal to divide the Northern Territory? 4352 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - Certainly ; but I do not say that South Australia would agree to such an amendment. I have not the same enthusiasm with respect to the Territory that the honorable member for Hindmarsh has expressed, nor have I such a poor opinion of it as has the honorable member for Gwydir. There are, undoubtedly, parts of it capable of development. We may meet with great difficulties in improving it in the immediate future ; but as' our population increases - and I think our own population will be the great factor in opening up the Territory - it will enter more and more into its development. I have not strong hopes of our being able to induce new arrivals from other countries to effectively settle and remain there. 4352 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - If we' do not do so, development will be very slow. Mr. - DUGALD THOMSON.- I have not great hopes of development being forced in the way that some honorable members suggest. The attractions of other parts of Australia, where there is still room for settlers, would draw, off a considerable number of immigrants in a very short time. I have more faith in our own people, familiar with the conditions, gradually stretching out, especially as means of communication are provided, in the most suitable directions. Headed by them newcomers will assist in the development of the Territory. If we were to settle there only strangers from other countries, unused to local conditions, I fear that they would gradually make their way into the neighbouring States, and that the development of the Territory would not take place. 4352 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - If we desired to keep them there, we should have to give them a proper title to their lands. 4352 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - I am agreeable that there should be an experiment in that direction on a small scale, but there ought not to be a heavy commitment. The Territory, in parts, may be of considerable value, and in the meantime I am prepared to agree to Australia undertaking that responsibility which South Australia has so long had to bear. I do not think, however, that we should take over the railway from Oodnadatta to Port Augusta, nor hamper ourselves by fixing now a route for a railway which might hereafter be found to be not the most suitable for the development of the Territory. 4353 KUF Darling 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE .- Readers of the report of this debate will find in it some of the humours of Parliament. Some very contradictory speeches have been made, and the most extraordinary logic has been indulged in. The honorable member for Parkes, for instance, claimed that those who know the Territory best offer us the least reliable guidance. Tn other words, he suggested that those who have never been near the Territory know more about it than do those who have lived there for years. I do not think that he can charge the representatives of South Australia in this House with being State Righters. They have generally shown the possession of a national spirit, and he must admit that those who live in a country ought to be most familiar with its conditions. Some strange proposals have been made. The honorable member for Echuca urged that the one thing needful was to construct a broad-gauge railway across the continent to Port Darwin for defence purposes. Such a line was necessary, he urged, to enable the rapid transport of troops to a' point of attack. Railways are built to develop a country, and not merely for defence purposes. Are we to spend millions of money in constructing a line merely to enable a rapid transport of troops to a point where an attack on Australia may never be made? The honorable member for Parkes spoke of branch lines radiating in various directions so as to bring Rockhampton, Brisbane, Melbourne, and other large centres of population in direct connexion with Port Darwin. I have never heard, however, of any -inordinate desire cn the part of the people of the several State capitals to visit Port Darwin. Then, again, I did not know until to-day that the honorable member for Gwydir is a great mining expert, but he has made statements that would lead one to believe that he is the most able mining expert in the country. I have had some association with mining, and know that those who advise capitalists as to the prospects of a mine usually make an exhaustive and close personal examination, of not only the surface, but the underground workings, before they furnish a report. I do not know, however, that the honorable member for Gwydir was long enough in the Territory to inspect many of the mines there, or that he attempted to do so. The fact that there are in the Northern Territory, as he has said, some monuments to the losses suffered by English mining investors ; that there is evidence that mines have been salted, or that in other ways capitalists abroad have been taken in by " wild cats," does not conclusively prove that mining may not be profitably carried on there. "Wild cats" are not peculiar to the Northern Territory. Every gold-field in Australia has had its failures, and I therefore discount the honorable member's references to mining losses. We have nothing to show that the Territory has been properly prospected. Every field is, for the most part, prospected by the poor man, and it is only when considerable capital is required to work a mine that companies are formed, and squeeze or buy him out. The Northern Territory has not been properly prospected for gold. Gold has cer.tainly been found there, but the actual annual output is unknown. In all the States, gold-fields supposed to have been worked out have subsequently revived, and become permanent. It was a common experience in Victoria for fields to be worked to a certain depth and abandoned, only to be developed later on, and proved payable concerns. I am satisfied that the Northern Territory will be a valuable asset for the Commonwealth, and that it is well worth taking over and developing. The honorable member for Parkes insinuates that South Australia desires to get rid of a bad bargain. We have evidence to prove, however, that the Territory comprises some splendid country, and will ultimately become one of the greatest States in the Union. I am personally acquainted with men who have lived there for years. Recently I met in town a man who had resided in the Territory far eight years. He has been all over the Commonwealth, and is free to 'go where he pleases, but he is returning to the Northern Territory, although -he could earn an excellent living in other States. I should prefer to take that man's opinion in preference to that of men who have never been through the country. An acknowledged expert in diamonds, who has been on the South African diamond fields, spent two or three years in the MacDonnell Range country, and when I met him at Inverell, New- South Wales, after he had failed to find favorable indications in the Bingera country, he told me that if the matrix of diamonds was ever found in Australia, it would be in the MacDonnell Ranges. I am satisfied that that is splendid country. It seems to me that it is quite natural and reasonable that South Australia should ask that the railway, which she has expended money in building, and the objective of which has not yet been reached, should be paid for. If we are to be guided by the common-sense which the honorable member for Parkes claimed to possess, but of which he did not show much evidence this morning, one of the first steps that we ought tq take, if we do take that line over, is to extend it the necessary 295 miles, so as to reach the MacDonnell Ranges, where everybody admits that there is a large area of very fine land, with great pastoral, agricultural, and mining possibilities. We could let the railway end there for a time. That would be a reasonable undertaking, judging by existing conditions. It is not a question of planning where to run a railway, because there is a railway already made to within 114 miles of the southern border of the Territory, and it is only necessary to construct a length of 295 miles to take it into the heart of splendid country. With regard to the possibilities of the Northern Territory, let me place before honorable members some absolutely new information, which only reached me recently. The only large sheep station in the Northern Territory is called Avon Downs, and is situated on the Barclay Tableland. The firm who own it have been established there for twenty-six years, and have never had a drought there. There is hardly any other station property in Australia of which that can be said. They have a great number of bores on the property, and they have spent about £100,000 in its development. They are sticking to it, but they are under enormous disadvantages for want of railway communication. I. have photographs here which show the grass over the horses' knees. But, after all, the best test is the one which commercial men will recognise. As they say, "money talks," and, at the last wool sales held in Sydney, the firm secured the record price of £17 10s. 3d. a bale for the wool from that station. I am pleased also to place upon record the interesting fact that it was bought by the Denton Hat Mills, of Melbourne, to be made into Australian hats for the Australian people. That high price was given because it is the finest wool in the world. In 1906, the same property secured the world's record price - 27d. per ib. - for scoured belly wool. In good country, where the grass keeps green, as they say it does up there, the belly wool has naturally a higher value, and is worth scouring, whereas in grass-seed country it is practically worthless. Let me point out to honorable members the results that must follow from the extension of railway communication to splendid country of that kind. Let us suppose that the Queensland Government extended its existing railway from Cloncurry to the border, and that the Commonwealth, owning the Northern Territory, constructed a line through the Barclay Tablelands to meet it. That line could by no possibility be regarded as coming into conflict, or competing with, the proposed Oodnadatta line, because a number of the European countries could be put into the area between the two. The accepted policy in all pastoral countries now is to run out light lines of railway for the sake of saving stock in times of drought, and the construction of that railway across the Barclay Tablelands, to connect with the Queensland system, would have meant that in the last drought not a hoof would have been lost in Queensland. That drought meant a loss to Australia of 50,000,000 sheep, which, valuing them at the low figure of 10s. per head, without calculating the loss in wool or in the possible return of lambs, were worth £25,000,000 sterling. Is it not ridiculous for honorable members to baulk at the construction of a little bit of railway, running, perhaps, up to £1,000,000, in face of the immense saving that the existence of such a line as I have described would have- meant to Australia ? I do not say that the whole of that loss of £25,000,000 could have been avoided, but a great proportion of it could have. In New South Wales, the practice now is to move stock from the drought-stricken areas to the coastal districts, but the last drought struck the coast as well as the inland country, and hence we had the immense loss that I speak of. With such a line in existence during that drought, not only all the stock in Queensland, but a great proportion of the stock in New South Wales could have been moved into the Territory and saved. Without a railway, it was impossible to travel the stock across. I am surprised at the honorable member for Gwydir and the honorable member for North Sydney talking about our population overflowing from the coast inland until it reaches the Northern Territory. They must have forgotten the fact that right across the Continent there is a strip of country, of which the South Australian part is known as the dead heart of Australia, subject to almost perpetual drought, and which can never carry a population. As it is now, the back country of New South Wales and Queensland cannot carry a big population. 4355 KW6 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 THOMSON, Dugald Mr DUGALD THOMSON - The population need not overflow from the coastal districts by land; it can go round by sea. 4355 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - Both the honorable member for North Sydney and the honorable member for Gwydir spoke about the overflow of population reaching the Northern Territory by land. There is a wide area of land which can carry only a very limited population. There is another part that will carry stock and support a few stations ; but to talk about putting a population on it, and especially on the central strip, is ridiculous. It is just this gap that requires a railway to connect the country on this side of it with the country on the other side, which never has a drought. 4355 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - How could you get the stock to the railway line in a time of drought ? 4355 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The honorable member ought to know that the accepted policy in New South Wales and Queensland is to extend light lines of railway into the pastoral country, with a view to saving starving stock. 4355 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - On the off-chance of a drought once in seven years ? 4355 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The honorable member is a Victorian. 4355 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - I know as much about New South Wales as most honorable members do. 4355 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - I am dealing with facts, and not with matters of opinion. Some day, the Commonwealth may take over all these railway lines, but, under present conditions, the States could extend them and link them up. 1 want also to emphasize the point that, as railway connexion is extended, the good country, which under present conditions can now carry only cattle stations, will be gradually brought under sheep, which pay better. That applies to country like the Barclay Tablelands. 4355 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - That country will never carry a dense population. 4355 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The honorable member ought to know that Australia has been developed step by step. First, the country was taken up for cattle. Sheep followed, and then in favoured places came agriculture; while where good mineral prospects were found by the men who followed the sheep, mining development ensued. I am speaking of existing conditions, and taking a common-sense view of the probabilities. It has been proved that there are millions of acres of splendid country -fit for sheep in the Territory. The figures which I have quoted as regards the wool produced on the Avon Downs station show that the settlers will go in for sheep instead of cattle as the country is opened up, and it has also been proved that rich copper deposits have been found, but cannot be worked at present for want of an outlet. The honorable member for North Sydney regarded it as unlikely that the traffic would go down to Adelaide, but it is a curious fact that, only recently, the same station sent its sheep right down to Adelaide, travelling them by a stock route to Hergott Springs,, and then trucking them. They were not sent to Queensland. A matter of that kind is regulated by the question of markets and other considerations, and is not governed altogether by distance. The first and best thing that we can do is to take over the Territory. It is admitted that South Australia, being a small State, has found its development too great a burden ; but it does not necessarily follow that she regards the Territory as poor country. All that we are entitled to assert is that it is beyond her power to encourage the development of the Territory and to open it up by means of State assistance, for that is what is really wanted. Still, that is no proof that the Territory is not good or worth developing. It is natural that South Australia should ask for some consideration, but the conditions which she has imposed are not as fair, from the Commonwealth point of view, as they ought to be. The Commonwealth should have been left free to decide where it should build the railway. I do not complain of South Australia asking the Commonwealth to assume the burden of the existing rn 11 w a v . seeing that her object in constructing it was to open up the country which we are asked to take over. But I should be prepared to stand by the agreement as now drawn up, rather than lose the chance of obtaining the Territory. I have a strong conviction that if we lose this opportunity we shall find that it is the last, because the very booming that has been done in this. House will open the eyes of the South Australian people to the fineness of the country which they are losing. We are the buyers, and yet we laud the article that we are going to buy, and, at the same time, expect the sellers to lower their price to us. That seems an extraordinary kind of logic to come from the professed business men that we have in this House. South Australia has never realized what a splendid country the Northern Territory is, but she will realize it when she reads the speeches which have been delivered in this House, not so much to-day as on previous occasions. I believe, as I said, that this is the last chance that we shall .get of 'taking the Territory over, and I do not expect that South Australia will consent to vary the agreement. I am, therefore, prepared to pay the bonus which she is asking. I am not particular as to the sum, because we should reckon that there are millions of pounds in the country, and should not look at the bargain from the point of view of a few thousand pounds for a railway. The country through which the existing line has been built is so dry that the rails are not likely to rust, and there is so little traffic over the line that it will not wear out for many years. South Australia has passed an Act, which could be put into operation at any time, allowing the Government to authorize land-grant railways. Early in the history of Federation, steps were taken to prevent the acquisition of 90,000,000 acres by a syndicate. Since then we have been advertising the Territory by talking of its immense size and possibilities, and the risk of syndicates trying to get hold of it is greater now than ever before. I do not know whether the Government, when they got an inkling of the views of this House, resumed communications with the Government of South Australia, with a new to ascertaining whether the State would accept a modified agreement, but it should have done so. Naturally, South Australia insists on the development of the Territory by railway construction, but we cannot take any account of the proposed routes shown on the maps. I would like to take some of our officials into my district, and lose them in a 5-mile paddock, to give them some idea of the size of Australia. Proposals like those which have been put before us have been made without any definite knowledge of the country. I have ideas respecting the proper way to develop the Territory, but there is not time now to do more than outline them. In the first place, I would give what encouragement is possible to induce Australians to go there, offering free land and other inducements for settlement. I am sure that many persons would be glad to take up the country for pastoral purposes, if it were developed by the improvement of its ports and the giving of railway carriage. At present sheep-raising would not be profitable there, for various considerations, including the difficulty of getting rid of culls, cost of carriage, the high price of labour, and other reasons that will readily occur to honorable members. These drawbacks can be readily overcome, [f we get experienced Australians to settle there, we may expect immigrants to follow them from other countries. With the increase of population there will be more prospecting for gold, and further development, until ultimately the Territory may become one of the finest States in the Federation. In old maps, portions even of Victoria, which has been called the garden of Australia, are marked " desert," yet persons are now doing well in those areas. Of course, those maps were compiled before the country was well known, and by persons who had never lived in country such as they were describing. I hope that the agreement will be ratified. Having carefully considered the whole matter, and listened to the speeches which have been made, I feel that we ought not to run the risk of losing this chance to acquire the Territory, even should the Commonwealth have to pay - unfairly, some may say - for its subsequent development. The transfer of the Territory to the Commonwealth is necessary in the national interest, even if we have to pay a bonus to South Australia on account of it. Debate (on motion by Mr. Crouch) adjourned. 4356 bill Bill returned from the Senate without request. 4356 bill Bill presented, and (on motion b) Dr. Maloney) read a first time. 4357 adjournment ORDER of Business. 4357 009MD Ballaarat Protectionist Prime Minister 1 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. By arrangement with the Leader of the Opposition, the second reading of the Constitution Alteration (Finance) Bill will be the first business taken on Tuesday. Should there be sufficient time to conclude it, the debate on the second reading of the Northern Territory Acceptance Bill will be continued, but, if not, the Telegraph (Emergency) Bill and the Post and Telegraph (Recording Machines) Bill will be taken. The second reading of the Defence Bill will be resumed on Wednesday. Question resolved in the affirmative. 4357 15:45:00 House adjourned at 3.45 p.m.