1910-10-04 4 1 0 REPS 4040 0 House of Representatives. 1910-10-04 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 8 p.m., and read prayers. 4040 miscellaneous 4040 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have received a letter from the Governor-General, transmitting, for the information of honorable members, a copy of the following despatch . from the Secretary of State for the Colonies acknowledging the receipt of the resolution agreed to by the House of Representatives in reference to the death of His Majesty King Edward VII. - Commonwealth of Australia. No. 315. Downing-street, 35th August. My Lord, . I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Your Excellency's Despatch No. 152 of the 8th of July transmitting copies of . Resolutions agreed to by the Senate and the House of Representatives on the assembling of the Fourth Commonwealth Parliament on the 1st of July in reference to the death of his late Majesty King Edward VII., and the accession of His Majesty King George V. These Resolutions have been laid before the King, and I have received His Majesty's commands to request that you will convey to the President of the Senate and to the Speaker of the House of Representatives his sincere thanks for their expression of sympathy and loyalty and for their good wishes. I have the honour to be, My Lord, Your Lordship's most obedient, humble Servant, Crewe. Governor-General, His Excellency the Right Hon. the' Earl of Dudley, G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O., Sc., &c. 4040 bill Assent reported. 4041 Questions 4041 4041 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - When does the Prime Minister propose to lay on the table a copy of the report of the Postal Commission? I understand that it has been forwarded by the Chairman of the Commission to the Governor-General, and I thought that it might be laid on the table this evening. Will the honorable gentleman make it convenient to lay it on the table as early as possible? 4041 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Ministers would like to see the report before laying it on the table, but they have not yet received it. There will be no undue delay in making it available to honorable members afterwards. 4041 4041 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Has the Cabinet yet considered the request of the Canadian Government that the Commonwealth Government should consent to an alteration of the present Vancouver mail service, so as to make Auckland a port of call, with the further stipulation that future contracts must provide for the inclusion of a port of call in New Zealand? If so, is the Postmaster-General in a position to make a definite statement on the subject? 4041 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The matter has been considered, and the Government have decided not to alter the present contract, Canada having been notified to that effect. When a new contract is under consideration, we shall determine whether New Zealand is, or is not, to be included. There is to be no alteration in the present service. 4041 special adjournment Motion (by Mr. Hughes), by leave, agreed to - That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 2.30 p.m. to-morrow. 4041 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers: - Defence Act (sec. 140). - Proclamation exempting from the training mentioned in Part XII.all persons residing in parts indicated by untinted portions of Map attached to the Proclamation. Papua - Ordinances of 1910 - No. 11. - Supplementary Appropriation 1909- 10, No. 6. No. 12- - Appropriation 1910-11. Defence Act - Military Forces - Regulations Amended- Nos. 3 and 3A (Provisional Statutory Rules 1910, No. 89. 4041 Questions 4041 Official and Semi-official Post Offices - Saturday Half-holiday, Allowance Post Offices - Post Officers' Residences. 4041 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - On the 18th August last, the honorable member for Wentworth asked the following questions : - What is the number of official post offices that have been reduced to a semi-official status during the years 1901-1910 inclusive? What is the number of official post offices recommended by Deputy Postmasters-General in their respective States for reduction to a semi-official basis during the years 1901-1910 inclusive ? What are the cases where the recommendations of the Deputy Postmasters-General in this regard have been finally overridden? What are the reasons for the Department's refusal to act on the above recommendations of the Deputy Postmasters-General ? What are the number and names of official post offices now earning less than £400 per annum? An interim reply was given, but full particulars are now available, the Deputy Postmasters-General in the . several States having furnished the following information : - New South Wales, 66; Victoria, 27 (two restored to official status and one further reduced to allowance status); Queensland, 11 (one further reduced to allowance status); South Australia, 11 ; Western Australia, 13 ; Tasmania, 4 (eight others reduced to allowance status before inception semi-official system). New South Wales, 78; Victoria, 27; Queensland, 11; South Australia 11; Western Australia, 14; Tasmania, 12 (including those reduced to allowance status). New South Wales, none; but in three cases final action has been postponed pending further reports ; Victoria, none ; Queensland, none ; South Australia, none; Western Australia, none; but in one case action was postponed until a suitable position could be found for the postmistress; Tasmania, none. See No. 3. New South Wales, 42, viz. : - Adamstown, Bellbrook, Boggabilla, Broadwater, Bundanoon, Burraga, Catherine Hill Bay, Clifton, Concord, Coopernook, Dalmorton, Dandaloo, Dural, Huston, Goolagong, Howell, Howlong, Ivanhoe, Jones' Island, Kyamba, Laurieton, Lawrence, Leadville, Louth, Moama, Mossgiel, Mulwala, Nambucca Heads, Pilliga, Pooncarie, Smithtown, Sofala, Sutherland, Tabulam, Tareena, The Rock, Tomingly, Watson's Bay, Wiseman's Ferry, Wollombi, Yamba, Yetman. Victoria, 2, viz. : - Flinders, Linton. Queensland, 47, viz. : - Banana, Bauhinia Downs, Bloomsbury, Bollon, Camboon, Camooweal, Cape York, Cardwell, Clare, Clarke River, Coen, Collaroy, Dirranbandi, Donaldson,. Donor's Hill, Durah, Eidsvold, Engelsburg, Eulo, Fairview, Floraville, Gilbert River, Hawkwood, Junction Creek, Jundah, Leyburn, McDonnell, Marlborough, Mein, Moreton, Mount McConnell, Musgrave, Nebo, Nerang, Palmerville, Raglan, St. Lawrence, Tangorin, Tate, Thornborough, Twin Hills, Urandangie, Walsh, West" Leichhardt, Westwood, Windorah, Wyandotte. Of the foregoing offices Camooweal (grade six), Cape York, Junction Creek, and Palmerville (grade thirteen) are important repeating and line-repairing stations; and all others, excepting Nerang, are necessary line-repairing stations. Reduction of Nerang to semi-official status has been recommended. South Australia, 48, viz. : - Alice Springs, Barrow Creek, Beltana, Magill, Blumberg, Brighton, Burnside, Carrieton, Charlotte Waters, Clarendon, Cockburn, Curramulka, Mallala, Morphett Vale, Nairne, Nuriootpa, Oodnadatta, Palmer, Payneham, Pine Creek, Port Victoria, Dally Waters, Elliston, Farina, Fowler's Bay, Hahndorf, Koolunga, Lyndoch, Macclesfield, Blanchetown, Powell Creek, Red Hill, Stansbury, Tea Tree Gully, Truro, Two Wells, Watervale, William Creek, Willunga, Memingie, Mintaro Central, Mitcham, Hammond, Katherine, Kilkenny, Wirrabara, Yankalilla, Yardea. ' Western Australia, 35, viz. : - Armadale, Balingup, Balladonia, Bremer Bay, Broad Arrow, Brown Hill, Carnamah, Chidlows Well, Condon, Cookernup, F.sperance, Eucla, Eyre, Fitzroy, Fortescue, Fremantle South, Grass Valley, Hamelin Pool, Hay-street East, Israelite Bay, Jarrahdale, Kalgoorlie Rail, Lagrange Bay, Mullewa, Northam West, Nullagine, Trafalgar, Turkey Creek, Walebing, Wallal, Waroona, Widgiemooltha, Winning Pool, Wooramel, Yundamindera. Tasmania, 15, viz. : - Bellerive, Cressy, Evandale, Fingal, Forth, George Town, Gladstone, Glenorchy, Kempton, Mathinna, New Town, Ringarooma, Ross, Sandy Bay, St. Helen's. 4042 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - As a number of small storekeepers in the suburbs of Sydney who have allowance post-offices on their premises will have to close their stores in conformity with the Saturday half(holiday law, which comes into operation on 22nd inst. - Is it proposed to make any alteration in the business hours of such offices in conformity with the altered ordinary business hours? 4042 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, has furnished the following information : - The ordinary business of the small storekeepers who conduct allowance post-offices in the suburbs of Sydney is of two classes, namely, (a), that which the provisions of the Saturday Half-holiday Act compels to wholly close at 1 p.m. on Saturdays, and (b) that which includes business which the Act permits to be carried on after 1 p.m. on Saturdays. There are only fifteen cases of the class specified in paragraph (a), and inquiries are being made as to the possibility of altering the hours for postal business thereat or removing the post-office business to other suitable places if found necessary. In the cases specified in paragraph (b) there is no necessity to alter the postal hours, as the storekeeper or some member of his family is in attendance to conduct the business permitted under the Act. 4042 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Has he received a report from the conference of officers on the matter of providing residences for post officers in country towns? If he has, will he state what the decision of the Department upon the subject is? 4042 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Yes. I have approved of the conclusions arrived at by the conference, which were : - " That, in the case of cities and certain large towns where residences can be easily obtained, and where a considerable staff is employed in the post-office, quarters for the postmaster on the postal premises are unnecessary and should not be provided in future ; that with regard to other places no hard-and-fast rule can be laid down, and that the question of whether quarters are to be provided or not should depend upon the circumstances of each particular case, the factors to be taken into consideration in deciding the question to be whether or not the postmaster can obtain suitable accommodation within reasonable distance of the office ; whether, if so, the local office arrangements will permit of one of the staff residing on the premises in the position of caretaker ; and whether the working arrangements of the office necessitate the postmaster being on the premises considerably before or after ordinary hours, &c." 4042 4042 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Where, and upon what work, is the Commonwealth trawler engaged at the present time, and how long is the vessel likely to remain in her present locality? Who controls the movements of the vessel, and gives instructions as to the various localities to be visited by the trawler? Have the investigations by the aid of a trawler up to the present time furnished sufficient data upon which to base a reliable opinion as to the commercial prospects of trawling in Australian waters? Is it proposed to utilize the trawler for purposes other than those connected with trawling work. If so, for what purposes? 4042 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The answers to the honorable member's questions are these - Queensland waters; about a month; Fisheries investigation. The Director of Fisheries, subject to the approval of the Minister. The reports already published indicate the nature and results of the investigations which in some localities promise commercial success. It is not considered desirable to do so. An exception, however, has been made whilst the vessel is in the vicinity of Brisbane for ten days during the present month, to permit her to convey members of the Ornithologists' Society to islands 40 miles from Gladstone. This, however, will not seriously interfere with her ordinary work. 4043 Military Transportation - " Angus " Invention 4043 KW8 0 0 THOMSON, John Mr JOHN THOMSON asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - What is the length of railway line from Wallangarra to Brisbane? 'What is the length of railway line from Tweed Heads to Brisbane? ls it a fact that in construction of line Tweed Heads to Brisbane provision has been made, by increased width of tunnels, bridges, fta, for adopting standard-gauge width of line? Has similar provision been made in construction of line Wallangarra to Brisbane? Will the Minister, when conferring with States authorities as to establishing uniform gauge for transportation of troops, consider the advisability of providing through line with Brisbane via North Coast line of New South Wales, now in course of construction, either from Tweed Heads or from Kyogle viâ Beaudesert to Brisbane? 4043 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The answers to the honorable member's questions are these - 233 miles. 69 miles. I am informed that the line from Tweed Heads to Nerang, 20 miles in length, has steel bridges, tunnel and concrete culverts wide enough for four feet eight and half gauge, but wooden bridges and sleepers are of Queensland standard dimensions. From Nerang to South Brisbane, 45 miles, the line is much older, and was built for three feet six inch gauge only. The line from Wallangarra to Brisbane is only Queensland standard dimensions, 3 ft. 6 in. The matter will be noted for consideration. 4043 JZF 0 0 FULLER, George Mr FULLER asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice - Is the Minister aware that a former Ministry obtained through its Minister for Defence a written report of its expert concerning " The Angus invention " for overcoming the break of gauge difficulty incidental to the Australian railways ? 2.Is he aware that this expert advised " that the Angus invention would do all that is claimed for it " ? Will he lay the written expert report above referred to on the Table of the House? Is he aware that a number of prominent experts (including Professor Warren, Chief of Engineering School, Sydney University, and Henry Deane, formerly Engineer-in-Chief for New South Wales Railways and now Consulting Engineer for Railways for the Commonwealth) have furnished reports to the effect that the Angus invention is mechanically sound, and mathematically correct, and should be given practical trials to demonstrate its great value? Will he lay these reports on the Table of the House? In view of the great importance of overcoming the break of gauge difficulty for defence and other purposes, will he at once have the fullest inquiry made in relation to the invention referred to ? 4043 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - 1, 2, and 3. A report was furnished by Major Harding, Departmental Inspector of Ordnance Machinery, and a copy will be laid on the table as desired. 4 and 5. The Department has been informed of the existence of such reports, but no copies have been received. This matter is receiving consideration. 4043 Applications to Educational Establishments - Long-service Increments. 4043 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - If any Federal Department during 1909 applied to Messrs. Stott and Hoare or any other educational college for students, and, if so, what were the Departments, and what were the dates, and how many were so employed ? 4043 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The answer to the honorable member's question is - . Yes. Application was made to the firm mentioned by the Postmaster-General's Department (Central Office) in August and December, 1909, and two shorthand writers and typists were engaged for temporary work. At these dates there were no suitable applicants registered at the Public Service Commissioner's Office. The two employes thus engaged were required to register under section 40 of the Act. 4043 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Treasurer,. upon notice - When will the long-service increments of £10, due to officers of the- Clerical Division on £160 per annum, be paid? 4043 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - As the long-service increments payable to officers of the 5th Class are statutory ones, it is intended to pay them in anticipation of the passing of the Appropriation Act. 4043 bill Opening of South African Union Parliament : Prime Minister's Visit to South Africa. - Business of the Session. - Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway. - Northern Territory Acceptance Bill. - " The Commonwealth of Australia for Farmers." In Committee of Supply : 4043 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I move - That a sum not exceeding£816,619 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services, of the . year ending 30th June,, 1911. This Bill includes no special payments, and covers two months' Supply, based on the Estimates for last year. I promised the Leader of the Opposition that at some convenient time before I left Australia to visit South Africa I would make a statement regarding the work for the remainder of the session. As this is probably the last sitting which I shall be able to attend before I take my departure, I desire to state the business which the Government think is urgent and ought to be transacted this session. All of the measures on the notice-paper are important, and the Government are of opinion that their consideration will not occupy very much time. With the exception of the contentious measure now under discussion, they include the Sugar Bounty Bill, the Excise (Sugar) Bill, the Constitution Alteration (Legislative Powers) Bill, the Defence Bill, and a small Naval Defence Bill, which accords with the views of both parties, and is, therefore, not contentious. 4044 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Is it to give effect to the resolutions of the Imperial Conference? 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Exactly. It is complementary to the Defence Act. 4044 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - But the Government have not a Naval Defence Bill here. 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The object is to bring naval defence into harmony with land defence. 4044 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The honorable gentleman will find that it will be a very big Bill. 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - It does not seem so important to the Government as it does to the honorable member. The list of measures also includes the Northern Territory Acceptance Bill, the Lighthouses Bill, the Patents, Trade Marks, and Designs Bill, and the Parliamentary Witnesses Bill. There is a number of other small Bills which the Government would like to bring forward- I refer to a Judiciary Bill, a Tariff Anomalies Bill, a Penny Postage Bill, and an Oil Bounty Bill. 4044 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - When shall we see the Tariff Anomalies Bill? 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Minister of Trade and Customs expects to have it ready very soon. There will also be a Bill to make some small amendments in the Electoral Act, and that long looked for Bill dealing with the Federal Territory. As regards :the Navigation Bill, of course the Government would be very pleased indeed if it could be passed "this-session. 4044 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - How long is the session going to last? 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I hope that, with the co-operation of honorable members opposite, the Attorney-General will be able to finish the session this month. 4044 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Is the honorable member really serious? 4044 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Oh, yes. These are small Bills. The Navigation Bill has been before the Parliament for six years. I am sure that honorable members on both sides recognise it is a non-contentious measure. We shall be very pleased if it passes safely through the Senate and reaches this House before the Parliament is prorogued. I should be very glad indeed to see the Bill put through both Houses this session. For the most part, these are small measures, and I venture to say that when honorable members opposite come to see and deal with them they will find that they can be disposed of in a very short time. Experienced Parliamentarians know that immediately the end of the session is in sight an enormous amount of work can be speedily dealt with, and I feel sure that that will be our experience this year. During my absence, my duties will fall upon the Attorney-General, and may I ask honorable members of both Houses to extend to him the consideration and courtesy that they have been good enough to show me. I thank the Opposition, and honorable members generally, for the uniform courtesy and kindness which they have invariably extended to me during my term of office. 4044 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN .- The Prime Minister's opening remarks were naturally somewhat personal, and, therefore, I at once take the opportunity, on behalf of the Opposition, of wishing him bon voyage, and a very beneficial result from the interval he will enjoy before resuming his labours here. At the same time, let me say that we desire that this Parliament shall be associated with the message of congratulation that he will convey to the people of South Africa upon having attained in the councils of the Empire a position of authority equal to that already enjoyed by ourselves and by the other Dominions. We trust that he will also express our confidence in the future of that great country. Having regard to recent events, happily concluded by the union of all its Provinces, which have probably passed through a greater variety of grave dangers, during the lifetime of our cwn Commonwealth, than any other part of the earth's surface under the British flag, we trust that their new record may be one of unbroken peace and prosperity. We both anticipate and pray for them such a development as shall assist us to insure permanent peace to the Empire, based upon the closest union of all its races and Dominions, and guarantee their advance upon the high road of progress as one people. We, with difficulties of quite a minor character compared with theirs, encountering only political antagonisms or the misunderstandings and trials necessarily associated with the settlement of a new country, cannot, without much reflection, appreciate all that has been accomplished in that new Dominion. But that gives us great hope for its future. We may congratulate ourselves upon the fact that the coming Conference of the Empire will no longer be hampered by the inclusion of separate sets of representatives from each South African Province. Next year, for the first time, the whole of the self-governing peoples of the Empire will meet as Dominions in the Mother Country. It is needless to add more, except that I trust the Prime Minister will convey to the people of South Africa, in his own effective manner, an assurance that this is no expression of mere lip friendship, but a simple and sincere welcome into the home circle. We regard them as brothers, as joint heritors with us, of the Empire of which we are devoutly proud, and as a permanent pillar in its support. We look forward to the manifold tasks of civilization in that Dark Continent being enormously furthered by the union of the white peoples making that vast territory their habitation which offers magnificent opportunities for the fruitful labour of those who are, or will become, sons of the soil. 4045 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST . - I regret that the Treasurer has not given us a little more information in regard to this Bill and the finances generally. It has always been the practice for the Treasurer in introducing a Supply Bill to take the Committee into his confidence, to speak of the revenue prospects, to intimate what revenue has been received, and to compare the returns with those anticipated when the Budget statement was delivered. The honorable gentleman, however, seems to have ignored all precedents. He merely threw the Bill upon the table, and saying, " There is nothing new in it," moved a resolution. That is neither convenient nor customary. I wish also to complain that no opportunity has been given to the House to discuss the Budget statement delivered by the Treasurer a month ago, as well as the papers then submitted for our consideration. Ours must be a very contented House. The whole financial position of the country was placed before us in the Budget statement, the debate on which was adjourned a month ago, and we have not yet had an opportunity to make any reference to it. Would the Treasurer expect such treatment from the Government if he were in Opposition? I think that we have been treated very cavalierly - I was going to say contemptuously 4045 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - That is not intended. 4045 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Can honorable members point to any previous occasion when a month elapsed after the delivery of the Budget statement without an opportunity being given for its discussion? I do not think that such a record can be found in the annals of Australian parliamentary procedure. 4045 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The honorable member can discuss the finances now. 4045 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - No one would be expected to debate the. Budget on a motion for temporary supply. That, too, would be unprecedented. 4045 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - But there is nothing to prevent the honorable member adopting that course. 4045 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I wish that the honorable member would not make irrelevant interjections. The consideration of the Budget is one thing and the discussion of a temporary Supply Bill is quite another. I have waited for a month to speak on the Budget, but no opportunity has yet presented itself. Having regard to the fact that the Prime Minister is leaving to-morrow, and to the other business that remains to be considered, I do not propose to-night to deal with the general finances of the country, and will reserve any remarks I may have to make until the debate on the Budget is resumed. By that time, no doubt, we shall have forgotten the speech made by the Treasurer, and will have to turn to Hansard to refresh our memories. The debate upon the Budget ought to be initiated within two or three days of its delivery. That is the universal practice which should have been followed. I protest against the Treasurer throwing the Budget on the table of the House, and a month after affording honorable members an opportunity to discuss it, and then only under cover of a motion for the granting of temporary Supply. There is one question which I have waited, an opportunity to discuss, and upon which I cannot postpone my remarks any longer. I refer to the projected Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway. The sum of .£5,000 has been placed upon the Estimates in this connexion : but we have not been told the way in which even this small sum is to be expended. 4046 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - In preparing plans to enable a scheme to be submitted to Parliament for its approval. 4046 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The honorable member was very quiet upon that subject when he had an opportunity to take action. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I wish that the honorable member would not interject. He is merely a voting machine at the best, and has to do what he is told. To place a sum of ,£5,000 upon the Estimates in connexion with this important matter appears to me to be only trifling with it, especially in view of all the protestations we had from representatives of the Labour party during the recent election campaign in Western Australia. 4046 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - That is a very nice statement to come from the honorable member, seeing that he was in office for nearly ten years and did nothing. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - That statement is absolutely reckless and inaccurate. The Labour party are now in power and they are doing nothing. Its members are like "dumb driven cattle." The Government are not treating the country fairly by placing the small sum of ,£5,000 upon the Estimates in connexion with this important project. That money is really not required for any preliminary .purpose. A proper survey from Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta has already been made,- and plans and estimates of the work have been obtained. We have sufficient information upon which to let a contract for the construction of the line, and yet we are now told that an expenditure of. .£5,000 is necessary upon preliminary work. I wish to know exactly what the Government intend to do. We have been told by the Minister of Home Affairs that this ,£5,000 is required to defray the cost of preparing plans prior to the introduction next year of a measure authorizing the construction of the railway. But we have never had that statement authoritatively made by the head of the Government. For the Government to place on the Estimates the small .sum of £[5,000, with a foot-note setting out that the estimated cost of the work is ,£3,988,000, is unprecedented. They are not dealing with the matter in a practical way. 4046 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - We have done more in three months than the honorable member and his party did in ten years. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The Government have been six months in office and they have done nothing. All that has been done was done prior to their accession to office. 4046 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The Leader of the Government has given an assurance that the £5,000 represents necessary expenditure preliminary to the introduction of a Bill next session authorizing the construction of the work. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Why has the Bill not been introduced this session? Is all the "stuff" which appears upon the business-paper more important than is this great project? If Ministers think so, why do they not say so? No reason has been assigned by the Government for this unwarrantable delay. If the work be a desirable one, why should its initiation be delayed, I have a right to ask that question. There must be some reason for delaying the undertaking for a period of twelve months. The Northern Territory Acceptance Bill has been submitted for the approval of Parliament. There has been no delay in regard to the proposed transfer of that Territory. Why, then, should the construction of the transcontinental railway from Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta, which was the crucial question of the general elections in Western Australia, be retarded ? The representatives of the Labour party told the electors of that State that, if they were returned to power, they would build that railway, and that, if the party with which I am associated were retained in office, it would not be built. 4046 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The- honorable member was very quiet upon this subject when he had a chance to do something. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I do not know why the honorable member so persistently interjects while I am speaking. I do not think that his action is either courteous or proper. 4046 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The policy of the Government is to build that railway. 4046 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - But when? 4046 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The Prime Minister has already given the honorable member an assurance in that connexion. 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The Prime Minister has not stated that next year the Government will introduce a Bill to authorize the construction of the railway. 4047 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Yes, I have. 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I am very glad to have that assurance. But I do not see any reason why the work should be delayed. If it be a good thing to connect Western Australia with the eastern States by rail, why not set about the work at once? 4047 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Is it not a marvellous thing that the honorable member did not think about this matter during all the years that he was a member of previous Cabinets ? 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - How often have honorable members opposite promised that they would build the line at once if they were returned to power? All that I can tell the Honorary Minister is that I have done my best in the matter. I ask him whether he has done his best? At any rate, we did something. We had the survey made. 4047 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The Government of which the honorable member was a Minister did not secure approval of the vote for that survey. 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - We did, and experienced a great deal of trouble in getting that approval. 4047 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer -It was the Watson Government which obtained that vote. 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - It was not. The honorable member is absolutely in error in that statement. We did secure approval of the vote for £20,000 for that survey. We also provided for the construction of the line in connexion with the agreement for the transfer of the Northern Territory to the Commonwealth, thus affording the South Australian Parliament an opportunity of redeeming the promise which was made on its behalf immediately prior to the advent of Federation. But I do not wish to touch upon that question, because I might say something which would not help me. If a railway from Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta will be a good project next year, it must be an equally good project now. Next year the finances will not be in a better position than they are at the present time. Nor will the season next year be better than is the present season. 4047 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The honorable member said that the Government would realize a revenue of ,£7,000,000 from the land tax. 4047 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I never said anything of the kind. It seems to me that delay is a favorite device of persons who have not decided what they are going to do. I have been accustomed to that class of politician. They say, " Let us put it off till to-morrow, because we do not know what to-morrow will bring forth. Let us promise to do it next year, and when next year comes we can say that we fully intended to do it, but something has happened in the meantime, and we do not feel able to do it until the following year." In regard to a great project like this, which affects the whole of Australia, and is bound up with the federation of the States, it is absolutely wicked that all these years should have been allowed to go by without the railway being begun. It is still more wicked that now we have the opportunity of doing the work, having this year £4,000,000 of revenue more than we had last year, the matter should be delayed by them for another year. It is simply trifling with the matter, and not worthy of a progressive or enterprising Government. We have heard a great deal from honorable members opposite about the work. They made it their one cry. They said, " The party who were opposed to us have not done this work. Put us into power, and we will do it." They have been put into power, and we find that the work is not to be done now, but is to be put off until next year. I cannot understand this trifling, this indecision, this want of enterprise. One would have thought that they would seize the opportunity to associate their names with something that is useful to the country, instead of which they are associating their names with drastic legislation, which is imposing burdens upon people, annoying and disturbing everybody, doing no good, and not connecting their administration with any enterprising work. It is not statesmanship or enterprise to put off till next year what ought to be done at once. It would have been done at once if the electors had kept us in power. We should not have come down to the House, and said, " We expect to get only £1,000,000 from the land tax," if we knew that we would get over £2,000,000 from that source. I am very disappointed with the action of the Government in delaying this great project for no purpose or reason whatever. I am surprised that' the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, and also the honorable member fpr Coolgardie, should allow this to take place. The members of the Labour party who represent Western Australia in this Parliament have gone all over the country times out of number promising what they would do, and all we now get in fulfilment of those promises is the assurance that something will be done next year. Many things may happen between this and next year, and the Government may then say that they are not able to carry out what they fully intended to do at this date. The policy of the Government in this matter involves an unnecessary delay, wastes time, loses a good opportunity, does no good to any one, and is not likely to bring credit upon those associated with it. The Government have lost an opportunity of showing the people of Western Australia that they intended to fulfil the promise which was dangled before the eyes of the people to induce them to enter Federation, and has been dangled before their eyes by the Labour party ever since. I must express my regret that the delay has occurred. The action of the Treasurer in throwing these temporary Supply Bills on the table, and giving honorable members no information regarding them, is not conducive to the public interest. There never has been an occasion like the present, where, for more than a month, the finances of the country have been before honorable members, and an opportunity has not been given for us to discuss, them. 4048 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I do not wish to delay the Committee, but I think the right honorable member for Swan is entitled to a reply to at least one part of his statement. He was good enough to say he did not think I had ever made a statement of the Government's policy regarding the construction of the railway from Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie. 4048 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Not as to time. 4048 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I clearly stated to the House that the Government intended to bring forward a Bill next session to provide for the construction of the railway. The Government do not take such a light view of the matter as the right honorable member apparently does. We do not believe that a work involving an expenditure of £[4,000,000, and the construction of over 1,000 miles of railway, should be undertaken without considering the questions of gauge and manner of construction. Not only the gauge of the railway has to be decided, but plans and specifications will he necessary. ^ 4048 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - The route is not settled yet. 4048 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - At any rate, the route is settled in so far that it is from Port Augusta towards a certain place. 4048 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Do the Government intend to wait until a uniform gauge for Australia has been determined? 4048 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No; but it would be very unwise for any Government to plunge into the construction of this line without duly considering the possibilities of the establishment of a uniform gauge between the capital cities of the Commonwealth. 4048 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The same thing has been said for the last five years, and all the reports have been in the possession of the Government. 4048 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I admit the value of reports, but it is more important to get an agreement between the parties concerned, if that is possible, before we commence the construction of such a large work as is contemplated. That is only one point, but the Government mean to undertake the construction of the line, and they recognise that in its construction there is involved a financial policy into which no Government with any self-respect, or with the interests of the people at heart, would plunge without knowing exactly where it began and where it was likely to end. The right honorable member for Swan is taking a light-and-airy view of the position when he says that if he had remained in power he would have commenced the work with pick and shovel, without considering the expense. That cannot be done. 4048 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I did not say that. 4048 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - This Government prefers to carefully consider what it is going to authorize; and it will only authorize what it can finance; and it will finance its projects in such a way that the best interests of the public of Australia will be conserved and the money of the Commonwealth will not be squandered on immature schemes. 1 can assure the right honorable member that the work to which he has referred will be undertaken in a business-like manner as soon as the Government are in a position to lay plans before Parliament. 4048 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - It is hardly to be expected that after spending half-a-day in entertaining the Dutch officers, honorable members should be in a very serious mood. I can readily understand that the entertainment has created a sort of lucid interval of cosmopolitanism in the Labour party, and that they are not quite prepared to settle down to local affairs. Notwithstanding the too conciliatory manner in which the Leader of the Opposition has treated the somewhat flippant statement of the Prime Minister in the form of congratulations upon the general results of the South African Union, I venture to think that the statement of the Prime Minister was unworthy of the occasion. He ought to recollect that there are in this House a number of honorable members who represent distant States, and who have been attending almost since the commencement of the session at half-past 10 o'clock in the morning, and remaining till 11 or 12 at night, on the distinct understanding that the session was to terminate at an early date in order to allow the Prime Minister to go to South Africa. But now we find the honorable gentleman practically waving his pocket handkerchief to this Parliament, and throwing before it a whole sheaf of business which is to occupy us for the remainder of the session. I wish to protest, as a member from another State who has been coming over regularly every week, and sitting here from 10.30 o'clock in the morning until late in the evening, against this treatment. If we are going to carry out the programme, which the Prime Minister has flippantly put before us, we shall be continuing our work in this Parliament right up to the end of December. In that event we shall have been led into this practice of early morning sittings on the understanding that the session was to close at an early date- 4049 KGZ 0 0 HEDGES, William Mr Hedges - To which December does the honorable member allude? 4049 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I shall be satisfied if we rise in December of the present year, if the complete programme which the Prime Minister has laid before us were undertaken. It is easy for the Prime Minister, who is going off on a holiday, and is naturally looking forward with some pleasure to the reception which awaits him in South Africa, to talk in this fashion. But it is not treating this House fairly. Just look at this programme. It is very easy to say, " Here are a few short measures which can easily be dealt with." We must remember that in any event we have to wait until the other House has dealt with that 'very controversial subject, the land tax. Then we are asked to deal with various other " short" questions. First of all, we have the Naval Appropriation Bill. Then comes the Sugar Bounty Bill. That is a Bill which I do not hesitate to say will raise the whole question with regard to sugar. There will be a very long debate in this House as to whether the statutory arrangement by which the bounty, which works in conjunction with the Excise, and was to be gradually reduced, is now to be fixed. There will be a debate on the Tariff affecting sugar, which, ' so to speak, will revive the whole fiscal question associated with the Excise and the bounty. Then we are asked to dispose almost in a breath of the Constitution Alteration Bill. But we know that that question is going to raise the whole question of State rights. Does the Prime Minister really suppose that the members of this House are going quietly to pass a Bill by which it is proposed to submit to the people a question as to the advisableness of handing over to the Commonwealth the most treasured amongst the rights of the States, and so pave the way to a condition of unification ? I wish to tell the honorable gentleman that a Bill such as this will occupy at least a week in this House. Then we are told that the Defence Bill is " a very short matter." Perhaps it is. There is also the Northern Territory Acceptance Bill. The Prime Minister has not thrown the slightest light upon that question. 4049 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must not discuss the various measures. 4049 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - They have been discussed by the Prime Minister. 4049 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The Prime Minister did not enter into details. 4049 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I shall not go into details, 'but only deal with general principles. As honorable members know, p. very serious legal question has arisen over the Northern Territory Acceptance Bill which is estimated to cost this country £11,000,000 of money. Yet the Prime Minister waves his handkerchief as he leaves these shores, and says that it is a matter that can be dealt with " shortly " by this Parliament. I have no doubt the Parliamentary Witnesses Bill is a " short " measure, and it is possible that the Bill amending the Patents law and the Lighthouses Bill are also "short." But the Northern Territory Bill will revive the whole question as to whether or not the Commonwealth is justified in taking over this Territory, and also another point as to whether we ought to take it over until we know definitely that the Commonwealth is going to have the absolute right to direct the course of the railway. The Prime Minister has not thrown the slightest light upon that matter. Instead of that, he has told us that his Attorney-General has given a different opinion from that given by legal authorities in South Australia. 4050 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask the honorable member not to discuss that matter in detail. 4050 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I have not any intention to do so, except to say this - that we know that the opinion of very eminent counsel in this State has been taken, and that his view is of course more valuable than that of the Prime Minister's adviser, who has expressed an opinion on the contrary side. I think that we are entitled to have some clearer and more concise statement as to what business is going to be taken before the close of the session ; because I am sure that no one in this House thinks that the programme mentioned by the Prime Minister is really going to be dealt with. In fact, the honorable " Labour " member for Maranoa laughed at the statement, and said, " How long are you going to keep us here ? " The honorable member, of course, realized the farce of putting a programme like this before the House at a time when we are supposed to be getting ready to close the session. We were asked to sit at half-past 10 in the morning for a particular reason. If Parliament is going to sit for another two or three months, so as to carry us on till the end of the year, I do not think it is fair to this House that such lengthy sittings should be continued ; and if the Prime Minister intended anything of the kind, I venture to tell him that he induced us to agree to those sittings on false pretences. 4050 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I must confess to have been very much disappointed at the statement of the Prime Minister with regard to the course of business. I understood that he intended to announce a programme for the remainder of the session which would take us at the very latest into the beginning of next month. Instead he has enumerated a programme of about twenty measures, some of them of overmastering importance - certainly some of them measures which affect the future destinies of this continent in a way that perhaps no other measures have heretofore done. But the Prime Minister is going away. 4050 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I did not mention so many measures as the honorable member sta ted 4050 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -I think the honorable gentleman enumerated nearly twenty. 4050 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Oh, no; the honorable member is quite wrong. 4050 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I assure the Prime Minister that I am not wrong. If he will look at the list of the measures that have been announced, and are not yet on the business-paper, and will add them to those which are on the paper, he will find that there are eighteen or nineteen at the least. Who expects Parliament to rise at the beginning of next month, if it is in the meantime to dispose of a programme of that kind? I sympathise to some extent with the statement of my colleague, the right honorable member for Swan. I think that the work to which he has referred should proceed as speedily, and is, at any rate, as urgent, as the taking over of the Northern Territory. In my, judgment, the transcontinental railway is as much a part of the general Australian defence scheme as the Defence Bill itself is. The Northern Territory Acceptance Bill is also a part of that scheme. They are both parts of the general defence scheme, and should proceed together. At least, if there is to be precedence of one over the other, I think the Western Australian railway should take precedence in point of importance and urgency, as well as on the ground of its relation to the scheme for the nation's defence. It is even more important , than the taking over of the Northern Territory. It is of no use for the Commonwealth to take over the Northern Territory, or to think of doing anything with it in the matter of defence, until the railways are built; and, therefore, to delay those projects is to delay the real consummation of all that is desired. I thought that the Prime Minister would have curtailed very much the legislative programme for this session, we on this side having intimated our desire to close the session as soon as possible after he had left these shores. I have to congratulate the Prime Minister on his departure for South Africa on such an occasion ; but it occurs to me that he has overlooked one little duty. I hope the Prime Minister will not take this suggestion amiss; but it seems to me that before he left he might have invited Parliament to send a kindly letter of congratulation to our sister Dominion over the sea, considering that she is now entering on a new system of self-government - a system which we hope will bring the South African people all the blessings it has brought to us. It is not too late now to forward such a communication. 4051 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The honorable member for Ballarat did that when the Union was decided upon ; and I believe we have since taken some action. I have always felt that in South Africa I should be speaking for this Parliament and not for a party. 4051 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - But I think it would be fitting for this Parliament to send such a message. However, I merely throw out the suggestion, and express the opinion that it is not too late now to carry it into effect. 4051 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I shall be glad to cooperate with the honorable member. 4051 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - The Prime Minister is going as our special ambassador to do what is suggested. 4051 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is another matter to which I should like to call attention. One great question which has intimate connexion with the defence of Australia is the question of filling our great empty spaces; in other words, I refer to immigration and land settlement. I should like to know from the Government what steps they are taking with a view to meeting this great national need? Are the Government doing any more than advertising for the purpose of getting people, of our own kith and kin preferably, to come to Australia, to people this vast virgin continent ? It can no longer be said that there is no land available in Australia. In a book issued on the authority of the Ministry for circulation abroad, with a foreword by the Minister of External Affairs himself, there is expressed the hope that people from overseas will be attracted to this progressive country. 4051 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - The honorable member does not disagree with that? 4051 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Not at all ; I congratulate the honorable member on his conversion from a different point of view which he held, especially before the electors of Australia. 4051 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - The honorable member is quite wrong. I have not changed at all. 4051 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Minister who will succeed to the Leadership of the Government when the Prime Minister leaves for South Africa has declared over and over again on the platform, that not one penny-piece should be spent on immigration until very drastic land tax proposals had been carried into effect. The Minister of External Affairs, in the book to which I refer, has shown the absolute fatuity of an attitude of that kind ; because it is there stated that land is available, and particulars are given of our good social conditions, and so forth. We are told: in this publication, of great areas available for settlement, of social conditions that are all that can be desired - in short, that here is the El Dorado for the thousands of struggling hungry people of the older countries, and that the sooner they come here the better it will be for all concerned. I congratulate the Minister on coming back to a sane view of what are the conditions in our bright Australia. In the book, we ate told in' these words of our social conditions - There are none of the hardships attendant on congestion of population or severity of climate. The Australian in every section of the community is enabled to lead a comfortable and healthy life, and if he is ambitious to succeed in any avocation he is perfectly free from conservative conventions peculiar to older countries. In politics, every adult, male and female, has equal privileges, and the laws of the country are framed for the benefit of all alike. It would be absurd to affirm that there is no poverty in Australia, but it can truthfully be said that the number of absolutely destitute persons forms a comparatively negligible proportion of the entire population. No poor rate is levied in any part of the Commonwealth, for there is practically no pauper class to need it. . . . Taxation in Australia is extremely light in comparison with other countries, and in the case of farmers is practically insignificant. I pointed out the other day that that was not quite so ; but that our taxation here, including local taxation, is 21s. per head more than is the taxation in the Old Land., I do not wish to underrate this statement. On the whole, it is an admirable statement of our social conditions. The honorable gentleman says further - The best index of the general prosperity of Australia is that about one person in every three of the whole population has something in the bank. The total number of savings banks, with their branches and agencies, in the Commonwealth, is 1,717, and the depositors, to the number of 1,333,000, have accounts amounting in all to ^46, 147,289, which averages nearly twice as much as the deposits in any other country. I wish that my honorable friends opposite would issue this statement as a leaflet and scatter it all over New South Wales just now. It would be an admirable thing to do, as it would counteract many of the false statements which are being made from every platform by my honorable friends opposite and their friends, who are conducting an electoral campaign in that State at the present time. 4052 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - The honorable gentleman was at it on Saturday night. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I was at it on Saturday night, and I was quoting figures to counteract some of the tarradiddles the honorable member and his friends are constantly telling the people of New South Wales. I told them on Saturday night, amongst other things, that they had better take no risks or they might find themselves minus some of the many advantages which they now enjoy under the regime of a Government which honorable members opposite and their friends so bitterly denounce. 4052 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - The "leg-iron" Government. 4052 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I know nothing about any "leg-iron" Government, but I do know that Mr. Wade has carried some industrial laws in New South Wales which were agitated for, and supported to the full, by Mr. McGowen, Mr. Beeby, and all the rest of them. 4052 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member not to discuss matters raised by interjections. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not wish to do so, but when statements are made about " leg-irons," I say that those who forged the leg-irons were those who voted for that legislation. 4052 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I ask the honorable member not to continue to discuss that matter. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The honorable gentleman said that the Post Office was the greatest sweating institution in the Southern Hemisphere. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I said no such thing. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I heard the honorable gentleman. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable gentleman did not. He is saying what is absolutely incorrect. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I regret that I have to take the honorable gentleman's word here. I heard the honorable gentleman say it, and he was cheered to the echo. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I defy the honorable member to produce a tittle of proof of that statement. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I was present. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - 1 know that the honorable member was present, and I know that he went away a few yards, and, from a lorry, told the people that I was telling them lies. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Hear, hear ! 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member's lorry was decorated with garlands and bedecked with flowers. It blocked up the right-of-way, and the honorable member talked from it twenty to the dozen. He has just now made a statement for which there is not a tittle of justification. I am entitled to explain, in view of the statement which has been made, that what I did say was, that, whatever sweating there was before in the Post Office, it was, on the statement of Mr. Power, still going on under the regime of the present Postmaster-General, and that instead of the economic salvation they expected, things were not one whit better. That is a very different statement from the twisted statement which the honorable member has just made. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - There was no twisting. 4052 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - We cannot rectify all the evils of the past Government in a day. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Exactly. That is what I was telling the people on Saturday night. I told them they had better be careful how they changed the managers of these institutions. 4052 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -Order ! I ask the honorable gentleman not to continue to discuss that matter. 4052 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I shall quote what the honorable gentleman said a little later. 4052 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall be glad if the honorable member will do so. He will not find that I said any such thing as he has just attributed to me. One of the things which honorable members opposite are saying throughout the length and breadth of Australia is that there is no land available for settlement in this country ; that the land is all held by land monopolists, and it is impossible to do anything in the way of immigration until very drastic legislation has been passed, and that that can only be brought into operation by Labour members in both the Federal and State spheres. 4052 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Hear, hear ! 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member for Hunter says, " Hear, hear," but let us see what the Minister of External Affairs says on the subject. Fortunately for us. we have one of their leaders who gives the lie to all these statements, and does it authoritatively and officially. He proposes to circulate what he has written on this subject throughout the length and breadth of the civilized world. Speaking of Western Australia, this is what he says - An enormous area of wheat land has been made available to the settler by the construction of spur railways, and when those lines which it is intended to construct are completed, a further large area will be opened. According to this statement, it is not the land monopolist who has the country by the throat. The difficulty is a lack of railway communication and facilities with which this Parliament has nothing whatever to do. 1 consider these statements are well worth reading; they will be useful a little later on when we are discussing some very important problems. A little later the Minister says - The price of Government lands ranges from 2s. 6d. to £2 per acre for scrub country, and from £3 to , £5 per acre for lands repurchased and subdivided for closer settlement. This refers to various parts of Australia. 4053 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - I think only to Western Australia. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No; the Minister, in making these statements, refers generally to Australia. We are continually hearing that no land is available for settlers, except at exorbitant prices, which put it beyond the pale of any small capitalist who seeks to get enough for himself and his family. But here the Minister says that there is plenty of land open for settlement - land that has been cleared, repurchased, subdivided, and is now ready for closer settlement - and the price is no more than £3 to£5 per acre. 4053 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - That does not apply to New South Wales. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If the honorable member will be patient, I shall come to New South Wales before I sit down. The Minister has been through the whole of the States, and there are statements in this article relating to every State in the group, with a good many particulars. 4053 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - Why not get to the business of the country ? Why is the honorable gentleman wasting time like this? 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then the land question is not the business of the country ? The honorable member has been telling the people from every public platform that it is the one question, and now, when we are discussing it, he says, " Why not get to the business of the country?"' 4053 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - Let us go on with the business ; the honorable gentleman is only wasting time. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - What is the business of the country if it be not immigration, land settlement, giving to the people that birthright of which the honorable member has told them scores of times they have been robbed? 4053 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - I never mentioned the word once. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Let me go on. The Minister of External Affairs further says - Within reasonable reach of the splendid railway services of all the States there is so much room for settlement that there is no present necessity for any one desirous of undertaking mixed farming going into the back-blocks . . . There is so much fertile land in Australia that there is no need for any intending settler to take up poor hungry soil. 4053 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir William Lyne - Who writes this? 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -I am quoting from a pamphlet issued by the Minister of External Affairs. 4053 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Well, he does not know what he is talking about. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - To whom is the honorable member referring? 4053 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - To the Minister, or any one else who compiles such a statement. Whoever says that there is plenty of land available, does not know what he is talking about. 4053 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That is the Minister's look-out; it is not mine. He does know what he is talking about. This is a fair and accurate representation of the state of affairs in Australia at the present moment. I have no quarrel with the Minister for issuing this pamphlet. We are getting the truth from his lips, and it is time that we had it, because the country has been saturated with lies during the last month or two; they are being circulated broadcast over New South Wales today. Now we have the answer to them from the mouth of the Minister of External Affairs in the Labour Administration of Australia. At page 35, speaking of land which is not improved, and which may be at some distance from railways, he says it is wise to leave all such land alone - and secure an area of partially improved land such as is made available under closer settlement schemes in all the States. He says that there is plenty of land close in to railways, and that such land is being made available in every State of Australia to-day. Going into particulars, he shows that in all the States " hundreds of thousands of acres " are available for mixed farming. He speaks of the capacity of our soil for growing barley, of the magnificent crops obtained, and the remunerative character of the employment in the various districts. He says .that there is abundance of room in Australia for settlers, and an inviting market open for all the horses that can be bred here, and advises people to invest money in land, and to go in for the, breeding of horses to supply the military requirements of India, as well as our own. Lucerne is another crop to which he refers. He says that - Experiments have proved that millions of acres of land that is offering £4 to £6 per acre in -Australia will f»row lucerne, and where irrigation is possible even better results can be secured than on the Hunter River flats. 4054 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I doubt it very much. The book is misleading, and if the Minister did his duty he would withdraw it. 4054 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - I suppose he has neither seen nor heard of it until now. 4054 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is h " foreword," signed " E. L. Batchelor. Australia, 15th Aug., 1910." so that there is no doubt of the authenticity of the publication. Dairying is another industry which is recommended. It is stated that - There is no difficulty in the newcomer securing on easy terms excellent unimproved land in settled districts at prices ranging from as low as ^2 per acre to £10 per acre. We are told that improved immigration schemes have been undertaken in Australia, and that - extensive tracts of irrigated lands are now ready for occupation in areas ranging from 15 to 20 acres to 200 acres and over. On such lands dairy farming can be conducted under the most favorable conditions. The Minister invites people to come here and undertake dairying on the share system, though I have heard share-farming denounced from the house-tops by honorable members opposite - Men who contemplate undertaking this class of farming should submit the fullest possible details of their experience and qualifications to enable the officers of the Information Bureaux to make arrangements which will permit of settlement immediately on arrival. The inference is that an abundance of dairying land is waiting to be taken up on the share system. All you have to do is to show that you are a bona fide dairyman. and they will put you on a farm in which you will begin on the share system. 4054 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Why does not thf honorable member read the next sentence '^ 4054 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I see nothing in the next sentence qualifying in any way what I have already read. I do not pretend to make full quotations. The book is an excellent one, and, I hope, will have as wide a circulation over the world as it is possible to give it. It is the best book that has been issued for many a long day. All the details of Australian life are referred to, space being given for the discussion of the possibilities of Men market gardening - On irrigated lands that are now being made available for settlement in small areas ranging to 10 or 15 acres, the prospects for vegetable growing are particularly bright. Those who have been accustomed to CloSE culture can be 'accommodated ; there is plenty of land for them. Speaking generally about the land available, T find this statement on page 73 - There are, however, available for settlement in all States large tracts of partially cleared and improved lands, which can be prepared for cropping at trifling cost, and without any delay for burning off. 4054 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Does the honorable member believe that statement? 4054 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - Does the honorable member for South Sydney not consider it .1 true statement? 4054 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do believe it. 4054 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Where are the districts ? 4054 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There are millions of acres available in Australia today. But. let me. get cn with the quotation - Enormous areas are also available for selection under easy conditions, and in areas ranging to 60.000 acres for pastoral purposes, and in the shape of improvement leases. This is not the statement of myself, but of the Government, and, moreover, so far as I can judge, it is an absolutely correct account of the position of affairs in Australia. In South Australia " about 360,000 acres are now open to application in various localities." Referring to New South Wales, the booklet says - Large areas of Crown lands are available for selection in places, and farms may still be obtained under easy conditions, though most of the land of the best quality and nearest to the railway has been selected. Pioneering work would have to be done on these Crown lands now available before a farm could be evolved , but these disabilities were just as apparent to a great many of our present-day farmers, when years ago they drove their pigs in the primeval forest through which men had scarcely trod, much less built roads or laid rails. In the North Coast portion of the Eastern Division, where 98 per cent, of the 4,000,000 occupied acres are given over to pastoral and dairying pursuits, there still remain 1,195,580 acres of Crown lands, and large areas of this, particularly among the head waters of the coastal rivers will, as facilities for transport increase, come under occupation as mixed farms, with dairying predominating. In the South Coast, though nearly 3,000,000 acres of Crown lands are unsettled, it is largely inaccessible country. On the Tablelands, which occupy nearly 26,000,000 acres of the Eastern Division, over 5,000,000 acres still remain in the possession of the Crown, and though for the most part inaccessible country, areas large enough for farms are frequently found by the more adventurous settler. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - " Still unsettled " is ;> different thing from being " available." 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - These lands are only awaiting the construction of railways and other developmental works. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - - The book is wrong; it is misleading. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Tn New South Wales, the writer says, there are available, in places for selection, large areas of Crown lands, and in other places a large quantity of land will be available as soon as railways have been built into it. I do not: know that my honorable friends are going to build railways into it, not yet awhile at any rate. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - The honorable member would induce people to come here and they could starve while the railways were being built. That is the effect of a work like that. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -The honorable member is always talking about people starving. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I am talking sense. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - We are told in this book by the Minister of External Affairs that there are no starving people in Australia, that there is no pauper class here. Every statement which the honorable member makes is answered by the Minister. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I said that if you induced men to come before building the railways, they would not be able to get on to the land, and consequently they would have to wait. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There is an abundance of land on which they can settle. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - - There is not. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - There are millions of acres of land on which they ran settle. 4055 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - There were 400 or 500 applicants for every block the other week. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member will find that there will be 400 or 500 applicants for every block so long as human nature lasts, and that system of balloting for land which is rife in our State obtains. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Does the honorable member say that the majority were only gambling ? 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not know what the honorable member means by gambling. 1 do not call it gambling if a man wants in a bond fide way to get a little more land for himself. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - The honorable member admits that it was bond fide. Air. JOSEPH COOK.- I do not follow the honorable member's chop logic. All i say is that a number of these applications for land are from men who have land. That has been proved over and over again. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Sufficient land? 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Sufficient to keep them, yes. They are looking ahead, they have sons who are growing up, and want to get a little land tor them. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - They do not get it. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member says that they should not get it. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I say that they should. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -Then this is not gambling ; it is bond fide. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Hear, -hear ! 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - All right. Then it is distinctly understood that many of these men who have applied to ballot for additional blocks have already living areas of their own. 4055 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - The honorable member says that they want land for their children, and cannot get it. 4055 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - They want the land for the time when the children will be ready to work it. The other day - on Friday, I think it was - we tried to induce the Attorney-General to leave alone the men who had a little land for their children, and he said, " No. If it is a consolidated block they shall pay the tax." There is just one other quotation which I wish to make, and this also relates to New South Wales. It is one of those statements which convey a world of truth and meaning - With the area of ordinary Crown lands, the lands made available under the Closer Settlement Act and the areas voluntarily released by the large landholders, a man with a little capital will experience no difficulty in getting a start in New South Wales. I might - repeat that for the sake of the honorable member for Hunter, as he seems to be sceptical about New South Wales. 4056 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I know that what I state is a fact. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member may know a little about his own district, but he does not know all New South Wales by a long way. 4056 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I know as much about the State as does the honorable member. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I dare say. I am not setting up to be an authority. I am quite content to get behind the Minister on this occasion, and let the official figures speak for me. 4056 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Because it suits the honorable member. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - These are not figures which the Minister has formulated. They are official figures, which have been given to him by the best authority he could find. He did 'not go to the honorable member for Hunter or myself, but to men who know a great deal more about these matters than either of us does, I take it. 4056 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Apparently he knows more than the Premier of New South Wales does, because the latter does not contend that at all. 4056 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - It can be seen that the Minister has never read the work before. 4056 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr Batchelor - I have read it several times. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Every one who is acquainted with the Minister knows with what thoroughness he performs his duties. He would be the very last man, I should imagine, to issue a booklet like this unless he had mastered every page of it. 4056 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - He has gone up in the honorable member's estimation. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No. I have always had an excellent opinion as to the Minister's thoroughness and his general sanity of view in regard to many matters. I venture to say that he knows quite well what he has issued. He knows that the information contained in the book is true. The honorable member for Indi knows that too, only it does not suit him to admit it. 4056 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - I know that it is not true. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If you could take the curse of party politics out of this business there is hardly an honorable member here who would not admit that these statements are perfectly correct. It does not suit their political book just now to do so. 4056 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Why does the honorable member use these quotations to-night except for party politics? 4056 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - What is the honorable member quoting? 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I have been quoting from a work which I have described at least half-a-dozen times, and the honorable member wakes up and asks, " What is the honorable member quoting?" I am quoting from a booklet called The Commonwealth of Australia for Farmers. 4056 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - It is a grand title. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Yes, and it is a beautifully got up book, which, I venture to say, will do an incalculable amount of good when it is circulated throughout the Old Country, as it well deserves to be. As to the States, the purport of the book is that there is ah abundance of land available on easy terms, and waiting only the advent of keen brains and strong arms to settle upon it an independent yeomanry, who will be able to defend it in the future, and to fill it with a happy and contented people. 4056 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Is that the statement as to New South Wales? 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - As to New South Wales, we have the statement that - With the area of ordinary Crown lands, the lands made available under the Closer Settlement Act, and the areas voluntarily released by the large land-holders, a man with a little capital will experience no difficulty in getting a start in New South Wales. 4056 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - That is not correct. 4056 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - What a marvellously large number of land authorities we have in this Committee ! Honorable members opposite do not own a foot of land. I venture to say that not one of them has ever cultivated an acre, and yet they know everything connected with the subject. Turning to the Minister's statement as to South Australia, I again find that he knows what he is writing about. He writes - Large areas of land are about to be opened for settlement north of Pinnaroo and east of the River Murray, and on Eyre Peninsula, Port Lincoln district. Here is another general statement about Western Australia - There are millions of acres of unalienated lands in the State available for settlement. 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - That is a very vague statement. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I cannot conceive of a more definite statement. 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - But there is no statement as to the quality of the land available. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Does the honorable member suggest that the Minister is trying to fool the people of the Old Country by telling them of land that is not fit for settlement? 4057 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - When land is available it is applied for over and over again. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member does not know what he is talking about. If he turns to the official records of Western Australia, he will find that of the land made available for settlement last year, over 1,000,000 acres of good land, near railways and well watered, remain to-day to be taken up. The honorable member for Corangamite knows nothing of any part of Australia save the Western District of Victoria. That to him is a little world. I would remind him that Australia is a big place, and that even if a few men have obtained possession of the broad rich acres in which he is so much concerned, he need not imagine that they represent all Australia. At all events, I refer the honorable member to the Minister of External Affairs for information as to what land is available for settlement. 4057 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - There will be a great row in the caucus about this. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not see why there should be. I could quote from this book many similar statements, but shall not weary the Committee with any more. I have quoted statements showing that there is land still available for settlement in every State, and that it is being made available by a process of private subdivision on reasonable terms. We have it that there is good lucerne land available at from £4 to £6 per acre. 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Does Sir Joseph Carruthers know anything about the lands of New South Wales? 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - He does. 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - He says that there is no Government land there available for the people. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Where did he make that statement? 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - In a speech at the Hawkesbury College to which I have previously referred in this House. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member is talking of a speech made by Sir Joseph Carruthers at a college in my own electorate, about seven years ago. 4057 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Not three years ago. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It is seven years ago. Will the honorable member wake up and get the dust out of his eyes ?- Will he remember that Australia is going ahead while he is sleeping? 4057 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - If there is so much land unalienated in New South Wales, why have the Government been resuming so many areas? 4057 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must ask honorable members to discontinue these interjections. It is impossible for the honorable member to make a connected speech while they continue, and they ma.ke my task much heavier than it would otherwise be. 4057 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - In this official pamphlet, circulating throughout the whole of the civilized world, and the cost of which this Parliament is to provide, we have the fact set out by the Minister of External Affairs that there are millions of acres available for settlement in Australia at the present time; that land is being speedily made available in every form of tenure, and that we want only people from the other side of the world to come here and make homes for themselves upon the soil. In other words, this is a statement to the effect that there is an abundance of land available in Australia ; that it is cheap, easy of access, splendidly fertile, well watered, and capable of producing everything from the products of the station to the small cultures of the market garden. This land is available to-day to any one who cares to come and take it up. I hold, therefore, that there is 110 excuse for any delay in submitting a bold, forward, immigration scheme. I hope that this pamphlet is but the harbinger of such a scheme. I congratulate the Minister and ask him to take his courage in both hands and to place on the Estimates an amount in keeping with the" importance of this subject. There is no need longer to delay. Here are statements made on the authority of official departments in every State, and checked by himself, that there is an abundance of land available at the present time, and, therefore, we should cease for ever to argue in this Chamber that we need drastic legislation to make land available for the people. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported. Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to - Thai 5 That the Standing ina Orders be suspended in order to enable all steps to be taken io obtain Supply, and to pass a Supply Bill through all its stages without delay. Resolution adopted. Resolution of Ways and Means, covering resolution of Supply, adopted. Ordered - That Mr. fisher and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in a. Hill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and read a first and second time. In Committee : Clause :i agreed to. Clause 2 (Issue and application). Mr. FISHER (Wide Bay- Treasurer; [9.53]. - Some time ago 1 informed the Leader of the Opposition that an error had crept into the Estimates-in-Chief in respect of the amount set down for Treasurer's Advance. 1 directed his attention to the matter privately, and promised that the .sum which would be asked for in that connexion would not exceed £300,000. The Treasury officials omitted to comply with that undertaking, and set down the amount at £600,000. I happened to notice the error almost immediately, and advised the Leader of the Opposition of it privately. I wish, therefore, to say that when the Estimates-in-Chief come to be considered, it is not intended to ask for more than £300,000 by way of Treasurer's Advance. C!ause agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. Schedule, preamble, and title agreed 1o. Bill reported without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages. 4058 bill (No. 2). Resolution reported from Committee on Governor-General's Message adopted. Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to - That the Standing Orders be suspended so as to allow the Bill to be passed without delay through all its stages. Ordered - That Mr. Fisher and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and read a first time. Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed - That this Bill be now read a second time. 4058 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - During the previous debate on this subject reference was made to the desirable ness of crediting the Trust Fund with interest upon the accommodation secured from it. Will the Prime Minister say what he- has arranged in that connexion ? 4058 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I have stated from the first that it is advisable that any ordinary borrowing from a fund of this kind should bear the usual burden of interest. But the honorable member for Parkes will recollect that before the Australian Notes Bill was introduced I stated that this advance should be regarded as an exception. Rightly or wrongly, it is an advance to enable us to keep faith with the States by paying them in accordance with the provisions of section 87 of the Constitution up to the end of the present calendar year. Whilst I accepted with pleasure the amendment under which the money derived from the Australian Notes Bill is to be constituted a trust fund, and whilst I agree that any money drawn from it should bear a specified rate of interest, I do not think it is necessary to make that provision in this Bill. 4058 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The Prime Minister proposes to do that. 4058 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I propose to make that provision in reference to any investment other than this one. If the Committee feel strongly upon the matter, I have always said that I would make the desired provision in respect of this fund. But I have already intimated my view that we might use this fund temporarily, seeing that the amount borrowed from it will commence to be repaid from the 1st January next. 4058 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - To borrow from a fund without crediting it with interest is very loose financing. 4058 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The honorable member must give me credit for at once consenting to constitute the money derived from the operation of the Australian Notes Bill a trust fund. No money can be used out of this Trust Fund without a Bill passing through this Parliament. No Executive can interfere with <t without the authority of Parliament. While I regret that it is not proposed to pay interest on the amount of Trust money that will be used for this temporary purpose 4058 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - What is the disadvantage in paying it? It will only be a bookkeeping credit, but it will keep the fund in its "proper position. 4058 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I quite agree with the honorable member, but it would be advisable to state the rate of interest in the Bill if we wish to start that principle now. There are other Trust Funds, and the purposes for which the money is to be used are carefully prescribed. That applies to the Australian Notes Trust Fund. The money in that fund may be invested in British Consols, Commonwealth or State stock, or may be temporarily placed on deposit in the banks. It would, perhaps, be better not to provide for the payment of interest in this Bill, but any other advance from this fund should, I think, bear the usual rate of interest. 4059 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It is a very simple thing to amend the Bill to provide for it. 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Very well; if honorable members strongly desire it, I would rather do it than have any doubt about it. Although it is clear "enough that any money that is to be taken from the Australian Notes Trust Fund is not to be part of the 25 per cent, gold reserve. T shall put in an amendment which will make that absolutely certain. That is a matter that ought not to be left in any doubt. 'It should be stated in clear and distinct language that this Bill will not permit of any of the 25 per cent, gold reserve being taken. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee: Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3 (Repayment of advance to the Trust Fund). 4059 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - I would suggest that the words " with current interest thereon" be added after the word " fund." 4059 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Make it " with interest at the rate of 3 per cent, per annum." Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to - That the words "with interest at the rate of 3 per centum per annum" be inserted after the word "Fund." Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 4 and title agreed to. Bill reported with an amendment; report adopted. Bill read a third time. 4059 bill Resolution reported from Committee on Governor-General's Message adopted. Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to - That the Standing Orders be suspended so as lo allow the Rill to be passed without delay through all its stages. Ordered - That Mr. Fisher and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in a Bill to carTy out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented, and (on motions by Mr. Fisher) read a first and second time. / n Committee : Clause 1 (Short Title). 4059 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - This Bill creates a Trust Fund into which any money that the Treasurer can spare may be put towards the cost of the naval unit. This is to make provision for the scheme of naval defence, to which all parties have agreed. The whole policy was agreed upon by the previous Government. The money may, of course, be used for any improvements of the ships that mav be determined upon. All the money proposed to be applied under this Bill is to be expended in accordance with the policy that was agreed upon by the previous Administration. We hope to have some revenue to apply to this purpose. Mr. DEAKIN (Ballarat) [to. nl.- Are there not other Trust Accounts besides the Naval Defence Account? 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Oh, yes. 4059 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - More than one. 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - There are quite a number of Trust Accounts which are not affected by this measure. 4059 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - It would be convenient to know the number of Defence Trust Accounts and the position in which they stand. 4059 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - If the Leader of the Opposition will refer to pages 64-7 of the Budget papers, he will find information in regard to the Trust Accounts. 4059 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - There has been no substantial change since those figures were prepared ? 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No. For instance, there is the Harbor and Coastal Defences Trust Account, as to which the expenditure was £223,954, and the balance at the end of the last financial year was £1,190. 4059 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Was there not a Trust Account for defence purposes of £250,000 ? 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Yes; that is the account to which I referred. 4059 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - How much of that money has been spent? 4059 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The honorable member will find the balance, namely. £1,190, set out in the last column of the table on page 64 of the Budget papers. 4060 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN . - I wish to call attention to the words at the end of clause 2 of the Bill, " towards the construction of a fleet for the naval defence of the Commonwealth." It is not often that an Opposition calls attention to the fact that, by the language proposed to be enacted, the Government is tying its hands in what appears to be an unnecessary fashion. If this is to be a Naval Appropriation Act, the term used in the title is as wide as could be chosen, and wisely chosen. No objection would have been taken if the terms of clause 2 had been made as wide as that title. There is always the possibility of some ancillary expenditure being required in relation to the naval service, and it might be both proper and convenient to meet that expenditure out of this Trust Fund. It appears to me that the Government should not be unduly restricted in this matter of defence. The whole House is at one in regard to it. It is not a party question. Anything, that will make for efficient administration and for promptitude in dealing with needs as they arise is desirable. From that point of view, it does not seem wise to include the words to which I have called attention. . 4060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The money is really intended for constructive purposes. 4060 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - That is quite right, but suppose that some other purpose becomes apparent, subsidiary to this but accompanying or forwarding it. If the words " towards the construction of a fleet " were omitted, the money would go to the Naval Defence account, and would be available for all the purposes covered by the title to the Bill. 4060 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I assure the Leader of the Opposition that there was no intention, in inserting the limiting words to which he has called attention, to prevent any necessary payments being made on account of salaries or wages in relation to naval construction. 4060 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - If the words to which I have called attention were omitted, it seems to me that the purpose would be more easily accomplished. 4060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Of course, the omission of the words would forward the intention nf the Government; but, at the same time, I do not want these Trust Funds to be loosely dealt with. I think that the Bill as it stands will enable wages to be paid. 4060 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - I am not sure that it will. 4060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I think so; and if the Bill covers that purpose, I would rather leave it as it stands. If honorable members, however, think that clause 2 is too restrictive, I shall be glad to follow the advice of the Leader of the Opposition. 4060 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - I think that Parliament likes to know how the money which it votes is to be applied. We are appropriating this money for the purpose of the construction of a fleet. I should not like to see any alteration made in the Bill in regard to the appropriation of the money. If Parliament passes loose Acts, giving a free hand to the Government to do as it likes, the money may be diverted from the purpose that Parliament intended. We have determined to build a fleet for Australia, and I think that the appropriation of this money should be devoted to that particular purpose, and no other. If it is desirable to apply a portion of the money in some other way, Parliament should be tailed together and asked to alter the Act. I would not agree to give the Government a free hand as to the expenditure. 4060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - That is the safest plan. 4060 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - I see no objection to leaving out the words " for the naval defence of the Commonwealth," but we should certainly say " towards the construction of a fleet for naval defence." We may have to use these ships in the China seas. 4060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Government will give a. fair interpretation to the words " defence of the Commonwealth." 4060 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - These are the only restrictive words I can see in the Bill. How much has already been paid for the construction of the destroyers, and will the whole of the £2.590,000 be expended before the end of the financial year? 4060 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - We have set aside £270,000 for payments to the end of September, and are paying gradually, in the best way possible to serve the interests of the Commonwealth, in instalments from time to time. The object of this provision is simply that we may have a big bag into which we can put the money, and out of which it cannot be drawn except for the specific purpose stated. I agree with the honorable member that the Bill ought not to be restrictive, but I do not agree that the words referred to ought to be struck out. These words mean, as was held by the previous Government of which I was the head, that the Commonwealth may have to be defended anywhere on the seas, subject to the direction of the Commonwealth Government or Parliament. 4061 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - Do I understand that the Prime Minister proposes to strike out the words as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition? 4061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - No; 1 would rather have the words retained in the restrictive sense. 4061 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Does the Prime Minister propose to make any amendment? 4061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I would rather leave the provision as it is. 4061 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That, I think, would be very unwise, because I understand the Prime Minister to say that he desires the Government to have at all times a very free hand as to the movements of the vessels. 4061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Yes. 4061 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - As the honorable member for Balaclava has pointed out, the clause, as worded, will very much tie the hands of the Commonwealth Government. It might be very well contended, when it was proposed to send the large vessels - which are being paid for by the Commonwealth - out of the Commonwealth waters, that that was not for the defence of the Commonwealth, but for the defence of the Empire. I am well aware that the Prime Minister, personally, is anxious that the Government should have a free hand to use the larger vessels; and I draw attention to the fact that the British Prime Minister, in speaking of the number of Dreadnoughts at the present time built, included the larger vessels built for New Zealand and Australia, and described them as not intended for merely coastal defence. I am sure that, if any contingency arose in which the Imperial Government asked for the cooperation of New Zealand and Australia in the defence of the Empire, we should be perfectly willing to lend the vessels for that purpose. 4061 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - With the sanction of Parliament. 4061 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Of course; I am not talking about the Prime Minister "playing boats" by himself. It is quite possible, however, that there might be some people who did not think imperially, but locally, and who would say that the phraseology of the clause limited the Government's action. I do not desire any limitation, but rather that the Prime Minister or the Government should have discretion. If the words objected to by the honorable member for Balaclava are retained, they might be thought to impose a limitation. I quite agree with the honorable member for Ballarat that if the clause stops at the word " defence," the latter words are not needed. The obvious purpose of the Bill is the naval defence of Australia, direct or indirect, through the Empire. If the Prime Minister thinks it desirable to retain the words, I ask him to stop at the word " defence," so as to do away with any equivocal words which might be used to impose a restriction on the Government. 4061 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I do not take the restrictive view of the honorable member for Parkes. 4061 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I take no restrictive view, but simply say that the words might raise discussion. 4061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I think it wise, when initiating legislation of this kind, to say exactly what we mean; and I think that the Government and this Parliament mean that these ships are primarily for the defence of the Commonwealth. During the very recent, widespread, and, shall I say, vigorous discussion in the country, the Government, of which I had the honour to be the chief, held that we could not prescribe the waters in which the fighting or defending would take place, and that no imaginary line could be drawn which the ships should not be ready to cross for the purpose of defending the Commonwealth. In my opinion, these words, should remain, in order to show that this is a Commonwealth fleet ; and the Government of the day will have to take the responsibility of directing the vessels, subject, of course, in a great emergency, to the calling of Parliament together. If an imaginary line were drawn beyond which the ships should not go, a position too ridiculous for contemplation would be created. In my opinion, the words impose no limitation, while they inform the world that the fleet is intended primarily, and almost wholly, for the defence of the Commonwealth, though I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that, while the ships are defending the Commonwealth, they are defending the heart of the Empire. 4061 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - And vice versa. 4061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Very well; it applies both ways. The honorable member for Parkes has told us that the armoured cruisers for New Zealand and Australia are called Dreadnoughts ; but I may say that the most recent advice we have from the advisers of the King is rather in favour of smaller craft for the defence of this country. I am not, of course, in a position to reveal the actual advice ; but we are told that with smaller vessels we get more powerful defence for less money. Of course, I am now speaking entirely apart from any political leaning or bias; but we are advised that the powerful smaller craft would be more embarrassing to the larger craft. 4062 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I am sure that the honorable member is not properly informed as to that. 4062 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The honorable member is not more closely in touch with the Imperial advisers than the Government are. 4062 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - It all depends on the meaning of the word " smaller." 4062 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I mean smaller than the armoured cruisers. 4062 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - How much smaller ? 4062 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - A good bit smaller; but, in any case, this is scarcely a matter which can be discussed here. I have no prejudice in the matter; as the representative of the Government I speak for the whole people of the Commonwealth when I say that we desire to have the best ships for the least money - ships which- will give the most effective defence, both on our own account and in co-operation with the fleet of the Mother Country. 4062 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . -The Prime Minister has not understood my point. In the endeavour to save the time of the Committee, I curtailed my observations unduly. I have not claimed that we should attempt to indicate in this Bill that this naval force is intended for any purpose other than the defence of the Commonwealth. I tried to point out that if a contingency arose, which we hope will not arise, and the question were asked whether these ships should be used for other purposes than the direct defence of the Commonwealth, objection might be urged by some members of this House that it would be ultra vires of the provisions contained in this Bill. I do not wish it to be so. If the Prime Minister found that the Imperial Government were building a number of vessels specifically for " the defence of Great Britain," he would at once, if his attention were drawn to it, take exception to it on the ground that it ought to be for the defence of the Empire. 4062 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Who is going to decide? 4062 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That is not the question now. Whilst 1 do not desire that it should be indicated in the Bill that the object of building these vessels- is -the defence of the Empire, I wish its wording to be left sufficiently wide, so that the Imperial idea with which the Prime Minister seems to be imbued from time to time - if he will forgive me for saying so - might be given effect under this Bill. If the Government of the day proposed, at some future time, to join with New Zealand in assisting the British Fleet in the China seas, some members might say that that was beyond the power given in this Bill, since the appropriation was obtained for the construction of vessels " for the defence of Australia." The honorable gentleman is, no doubt, well aware that that great authority on defence, Admiral Mahan, has pointed out in a chapter of one of his books upon " the disposition of navies," that prior to the Japanese-Russian war, the naval base for the defence of Australia was the middle of the Indian Ocean. Since that war the point may be somewhat changed. There is a very popular opinion in this country that, in- order to defend Australia, we should have our harbors full of warships; but, according to Admiral Mahan, the naval base for the defence of Australia was, some time ago, at a point in the Indian Ocean. As the Prime Minister is well aware, defence at sea is quite different to defence on land. At sea the enemy is treated as an ocean bushranger, and we go out on to the highways of the ocean to meet and destroy him. 4062 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Should we not follow him up as Nelson did ? 4062 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Of course we should. Nelson went down to the West Indies to follow the French Fleet; and he went to the end of the Mediterranean to meet them at Alexandria. Our ships would have to go across the ocean too. If we limit ourselves in this Bill, when the time comes for sending the larger ships away in response to the wishes of, and in cooperation with, the Navy of the Imperial Government we may have members of this House raising the point that there is no power to do such a thing under this Bill. We have members of this House who are not so well disposed towards the British Empire as some of us are. 4062 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Yes, they are; but they think of Australia first. 4063 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The honorable gentleman has no right to say that. 4063 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH -I may be allowed to remind these new political fledgelings that in 1903. when we had no navy of our own, and were providing a miserable and despicable , £200,000 contribution towards the , £35,000,000 for the upkeep of the British Fleet, there was not one Labour man in this Parliament who would vote for the subsidy. 4063 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - Yes, the honorable member for Maranoa voted for it. 4063 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I did not wish to mention any names. I might mention one or two others who distinctly said they did not want to vote for the defence of the Empire. 4063 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'malley - The honorable member for Maranoa voted for the subsidy. 4063 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Then I beg the honorable member's pardon. I did not think there was one solitary exception. We had many statements about defending Australia, and that they wanted Australia " to be a nation." There was plenty of that kind of schoolboy sentiment. 4063 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - Does the honorable member call the desire to make Australia a nation a schoolboy sentiment? 4063 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I say that some honorable members were not prepared to assist even to that paltry extent in the defence of the British Empire. Of course, we hope to make Australia a nation, if we can. but we want people for that purpose; and we want it done as part of the British Empire. I wish to convince the Prime Minister, seeing what his sentiments are, that it would be desirable for him to retain power in the hands of the Government to use these vessels either for the direct defence of the Commonwealth or its indirect defence through the British Empire. 4063 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - I hope he will do nothing of the kind. If the honorable member's suggestion were adopted, the. matter would be out of the power of 'this Parliament all the time. 4063 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - This Parliament would have to- say whether the ships could be used at all. The honorable member for East Sydney has shown how he would construe this clause. I can see, now that some feeling has been stirred up in the party opposite, that the Prime Minister will not entertain my suggestion, but I make it for what it is worth. 4063 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN .- I am not quite as much impressed as the Prime Minister appears to be by the fact that within the last twelve months there has been, apparently, a change of opinion in the advice tendered by some of the principal naval advisers of the Admiralty. The swing of the pendulum is almost regular. In one year the opinion is in favour of enlarging the ships, and in the next year in favour of concentrating their power. The Prime Minister is perfectly right when he says - and there, it appears, all the authorities are with him - that a Dreadnought, in size, represents what is now considered an excessive development, and that the new antagonist of the Dreadnought, though a very large vessel, is considerably smaller than a Dreadnought, but with much heavier armament. These swings of the pendulum take place from lime to time. The Prime Minister is absolutely right when he ridicules the possibility of our drawing a line on the map and saying that a vessel that can operate within that area is defending Australia, and that the same vessel would not be defending Australia if operating beyond that line. No such line can be drawn. The oceans of the world are one. It is just possible that there might be a combination of forces of such a character that Australia's safety would be determined by naval conflicts taking place thousands of miles away from Australian ports. If that were possible, Australian vessels, as well as British vessels, and those of the Indian Fleet, should, for Australia's sake, be concentrated where the crisis will take place. 4063 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - It may be decided in the North Sea. 4063 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Exactly. Of course the effective range even of the armoured cruiser now under construction, would be too limited to permit it to be transferred such a distance in time to take part in a conflict which might be brought about with forty-eight hours' notice. Where the decisive conflict will take place we cannot, and need not, know. We must provide the best defence in the best form we can, being satisfied with nothing less, and use it to the best purpose whenever and where- ever the emergency may arise. My object is to give the Government a freer hand to expedite construction in any way which may be considered necessary ; but having pressed my suggestion on the Treasurer, I shall not occupy more time in regard to it. 4064 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - The honorable member for Parkes always has something interesting to say; but I do not accept the restrictive reading of the provision. 4064 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I do not give it a restrictive reading; but I say that there are others who do. 4064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - What I said does not conflict with the statement made in the Imperial Parliament - that naval defence is subject to the Naval Discipline Act, and provides for the United Kingdom and its Territories. We also have territories, although they are not specifically alluded to. I venture to say that those responsible in rimes of emergency will give the provision a reading which will be in consonance with the traditions of our race, and the best interests of the Commonwealth and the .Empire generally. 4064 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - On the whole, it may be well to let the Bill go through ; but we shall later require an amending measure to remove its limitations. There is already a growing trouble in connexion with the management of our land defence, because of the restrictions of the Trust Fund. The great bulk of our military requirements have to be supplied from the other end of the world; and when Parliament votes £100,000 for armaments or equipment of any kind, it cannot be sure of spending the money within the year, everything depending on the conditions of the factories at Home, which may be able to do the work off-hand, or may be so glutted with orders that they cannot meet our requirements for twelve or eighteen months to come. Therefore a Trust Fund is needed, into which the money voted could be paid, to make it unnecessary to get re-votes in succeeding years, a practice which needlessly inflates the Estimates, and often causes delay, because when the manufacturers are ready to execute our orders, it is found that there is no money available pending a fresh appropriation. A Trust Fund is needed for both land and naval defence, and while it may be well to confine these provisions to the construction of the Fleet, a Trust Fund will later be needed for its maintenance. The honorable member referred to the contemplated introduction of a Naval Discipline Bill as a supplement to the Defence Act. If I am any judge, the consideration of that measure will take some time. 4064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I hope not. 4064 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member knows what naval discipline is elsewhere, and .what it must be here. 4064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Those who fight the battles of their country must be willing to conform to the ordinary rules of discipline. 4064 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Is the Government going to follow the recommendations of the Conference ? 4064 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I hope so. We must have common standards of discipline, as well as of arms. While it is true that the Home authorities may be reducing the size of vessels of war, they are not likely to come down to vessels of the " River " class for the defence of the high seas. For many years to come we must be content to accept their suggestions. The tendency now is to reduce the size of the war vessels, making their armament heavier, though giving them less of it. Great speed is particularly aimed at, especially for the defence of the trade routes. As a naval expert has said, we need something which will catch anything, which will fight anything, and which, if the odds are against it, can keep out of the way until assistance arrives. Clause agreed to. Clause 2, preamble, and title agreed to. 3 ill reported without amendment ; report adopted. Bill read a third time. 4064 miscellaneous 4064 F4N Wide Bay ALP Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I desire leave to submit a motion complimentary to the Parliament of the South African Union. 4064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Is it the pleasure of the House that the Prime Minister have leave to submit the motion? Honorable Members. - Hear, hear ! 4064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - There being no objection, leave is granted. 4064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I am indebted to the Opposition for the suggestion that it might be advisable for each House of the Commonwealth Parliament to pass a motion conveying fraternal greetings to the Parliament of the South African Union, which is to be inaugurated on the 4th November next. I have much pleasure in moving - That the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia offers most cordial congratulations to the Parliament of the Union of South Africa upon the establishment of a National Government and Legislature for that Dominion capable, under the blessing of Divine Providence, of accomplishing the tasks required for the development of its Provinces and for the unity of the Empire. I ask my honorable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, to be good enough to second the motion. 4065 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN . - I second, with great pleasure, the motion, which will enable the Prime Minister, while conveying the congratulations of the Commonwealth Parliament, to place before the Union Parliament a few words which directly express the unanimous feeling and Imperial sentiments of both Houses of this Parliament., The Prime Minister needs no credentials.' He has authority to speak for this Parliament on these non-party matters at any time, and we shall willingly indorse what he may say. But this motion also gives honorable members an opportunity of associating themselves in a more personal fashion with a memorable event in the history of the Empire. Question resolved in the affirmative. Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to - That the resolution be transmitted to the Senate with a message requesting their concurrence therein. 4065 adjournment 4065 Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 4065 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN .- If there is no other farewell to be made, once more, across the table, I wish the Prime Minister good-bye - and the pleasantest of voyages. Question resolved in the affirmative. 4065 22:52:00 House adjourned at 10.52 p.m.