1910-10-05 4 1 0 REPS 4115 0 HouseofRepresentatives. 1910-10-05 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 4115 Questions 4115 4115 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - A telegram from Vancouver appears in to-day's newspapers to the effect that the International Dry-farming Congress was opened yesterday at Spokane, in the State of Washington. Has the Government arranged to get a full report of what takes place there, the subject to be dealt with being of particular interest to this country? 4115 JOC ALP 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - We have obtained reports from each meeting of the Congress, and a request will be sent for full information in reference to this one, so that statements which may be of interest to us may be available. 4115 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I think that the Minister will find that his Department is a member of the Congress, and pays a certain sum annually, entitling it to the reports of the conferences. 4115 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - That is so. 4115 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - When the reports come to hand, will the honorable gentleman see that they are published in a form in which they may be so circulated as to reach those whom they are intended to benefit? 4115 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - I shall endeavour to do so. 4116 4116 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Home Affairs to an advertisement which appeared in yesterday's newspapers, headed, " Department of Lands and Surveys, Perth, 23rd September." The advertisement points out that there is in Western Australia, surveyed and open to selection, 550 blocks aggregating 643,000 acres, serviceable for wheat-growing or sheep farming; 323 blocks, aggregating 102,000 acres, serviceable for fruit, sheep, and cereals ; and 240 blocks, aggregating 37,000 acres, suitable for dairying, fruit, root crops, and stock. I draw the honorable gentleman's attention also to a statement made on the date I have given by the Minister of Lands for Western Australia, to the effect that 1,000,000 acres of land have been surveyed for settlement in that State, but have not yet been sold. Will the honorable gentleman see. that these facilities for settlement are advertised in London, so that the people there who need land may come to Australia and get it? 4116 JOC ALP 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - The advertisement referred to is one with which I have nothing to do, it having been issued apparently by the authority of the Government of Western Australia; but if the honorable member will give notice of his question, I shall look into the matter. 4116 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - Will the Minister of External Affairs publish another pamphlet, similar to that already issued by his Department for circulation in the Old World - and dealing in glowing terms with the possibilities of Australia from the point of view of farmers - showing where Australians must go to avail themselves of the opportunities to which that pamphlet refers ? 4116 JOC 0 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - I see no reason for the issue of any such pamphlet as the honorable member suggests. I believe that that to which he refers gives full particulars as to where the land is obtainable, and the prices at which it may be secured. 4116 miscellaneous Mr. HUGHES laid upon the table the report of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the administration of the Post and Telegraph Department. Ordered to be printed. 4116 Questions 4116 Telephone Rates - Vancouver Mail Service-Subdivisional Promotions : Expenditure Involved - Salaries 4116 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Has the attention of the Postmaster-General been drawn to the following statement in to-day's Age: - If you want a telephone now you must guarantee to take it for four years, pay two years' rent in advance, and subsequently one year in advance. This is very severe on a man of moderate income and on one living in a rented house. Has any new regulation been issued, or is this in keeping with my own experience of five years ago, when I had to pay so much extra for the erection of a new line ? 4116 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The regulation referred to has been in force since Federation, and applies only to cases in which new lines have to be erected. It does not affect 99 per cent. of the telephone subscribers, new subscribers usually paying only for a year in advance, and after that half-yearly in advance. But where the Department has to erect poles and lines for the convenience of a single subscriber, the Deputy Postmasters-General are empowered to demand two, three, four, or five years' rent in advance, according to the cost of the work. No new regulation has been issued, and I am surprised that the Age should publish such an article as that referred to. 4116 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Have the Government decided to call for tenders for a new mail service with Vancouver after the expiration of the present service? 4116 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - As Canada is calling for tenders returnable on1st November, the Government have decided not to call for tenders until after that date. 4116 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Will the Postmaster-General lay on the table of the House a copy of the specifications, showing the terms on which tenders are being called by the Canadian Government for tie new Vancouver mail service ; and also state how far the Commonwealth Government are committed to those terms? 4116 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I shall be pleased to lay a copy on the Library table, and may say that we are in no way committed to the terms. 4116 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - In reply to a question put by the honorable member for Bourke on 28th ultimo, in reference to the in the Postmaster-General's Department, amount which would have been required the following statement has been supplied to grant certain subdivisional promotions by the Public Service Commissioner: - Amount of money which would have been required to grant subdivisional promotion to all the officers in the Fourth and higher classes of the Clerical Division, and in Class E and higher Classes of the Professional Division, in the Postmaster-General's Department, Victoria (excluding postmasters, telegraphists, and officers on the Central Staff), during the following Financial Tears : - Amount provided on the Estimates in each of the Financial Years mentioned - 4117 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Will the Minister of Home Affairs cause to be printed for circulation amongst honorable members the document which he has just presented, in reply to a question put by the honorable member for Bourke? 4117 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - It is merely a statement furnished in reply to a question, and will appear in Hansard. 4117 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - How many officers in the Clerical Division of the Postmaster-General's Department in Victoria (exclusive of postmasters, telegraphists, and officers of the Central Staff) in (a) the first class, (A) the second class, [c) the third class, (d) the fourth class, were receiving salaries below the maximum of their classes on the 30th June in the undermentioned years : - 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910? How many officers in each of the classes mentioned in the preceding question were granted subdivisional promotion in each of the years mentioned ? 3: How many officers in the Professional Division of the Postmaster-General's Department in Victoria in (1) Class A, (2) Class B, (3) Class C, (4) Class D, (5) Class E, were receiving salaries below the maximum of their classes on the 30th June in the undermentioned years : - 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910? How many of the officers in each of the classes mentioned in the preceding question were granted subdivisional promotion in each of the years quoted? How many officers in the Public Service Commissioner's Office in (a) the first class, (b) the second class, (c) the third class, [d) the fourth class were receiving salaries below their class on the 30th June in the undermentioned years : - 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910? How many officers in the Public Service Commissioner's Office in each of the classes mentioned in the preceding question were granted subdivisional promotion in the years quoted? 4118 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - In reply to the honorable member's questions, I lay on the table the following return, which has been furnished me by the Public Service Commissioner : - 4118 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The question just asked by the honorable member for Bourke required the preparation of a return giving minute details, involving great care and expense. Formerly, such information always required to be asked for in the shape of a return, instead of being obtained in answer to a question, but our practice seems to be becoming more and more lax. The authority of the House should be necessary to any request of the kind. 4118 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - For some time the practice has been growing of asking for such information in reply to questions. It is purely a matter for the Government to decide, but I understand that they have allowed the practice to be followed with the object of endeavouring to- save expense. 4118 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin - There can be no saving, but extra cost must be involved. 4119 4119 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - I wish to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he will have any objection to treating notice of motion No. 3 for to-morrow as unopposed ? The motion deals with the expenditure of Government Departments, and, as such propositions are usually allowed to pass without opposition, I desire to know whether there is any reason why in this case there should be any departure from the ordinary course. 4119 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member will have to submit his motion, and if he makes out a good case the Government will be prepared to do what he desires; otherwise they will not. 4119 4119 KW8 0 0 THOMSON, John Mr JOHN THOMSON asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - What are the means taken to prove the efficiency of officers, including postmasters, in fourth and fifth classes, or clerical divisions? At what intervals are these tests carried out? How many of these officials passed such tests during last year? Is it intended to recognise these officers by increase of salaries and promotion? Similar information regarding telegraphists? 4119 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - In answer to the honorable member's questions, I have to state that the Public Service Commissioner reports - The efficiency of these officers is determined by the manner in which their respective duties are performed, and the general quality and value of the work upon which they are engaged. Specific tests in such cases are impracticable. 2 and 3. Answered by 1. Postmasters are advanced in order of efficiency and seniority by subdivisions and classes as vacancies occur, and in accordance with the classified values of post offices, such values being dependent upon the volume and nature of the business transacted. Other clerical officers are advanced on efficiency and seniority, and with due consideration of the value of the work performed. Tests as to the efficiency of telegraphists are held from time to time as the exigencies of the Service require, and when vacancies occur the officers are promoted in accordance with the efficiency disclosed at such tests. 4119 4119 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice - Whether it is correct, as reported, that the Government propose to open a State Hotel at Port Moresby, for the accommodation of officers and visitors generally ? If so, is it proposed to combine the business of selling intoxicating liquors with the provision of accommodation? If so, will the Minister state the reasons that have influenced the Government in arriving at this decision ? 4119 JOC ALP 1 0 BATCHELOR, Egerton Mr BATCHELOR - Such a proposal has been received from the Government of Papua, and is now under consideration. 4119 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers - Defence - Memorandum by the Chief of the General Staff and of the Commonwealth section of the Imperial General Staff, 1909- 10. Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations Amended - Postal - Pathological specimens (cancer) - (Provisional) - Statutory Rules1910, No. 80. Telegraphic - No. 17, &c. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 83. Public Service Act - Regulation Amended - No. 220 - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 90. 4119 bill Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to - That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to alter the Constitution by empowering the Parliament to make laws with respect to industries and businesses declared to be the subject of a monopoly. Bill presented, and read a first time. 4119 bill In Committee: (Consideration resumed from 30th September, vide page 4039) : Clause 44 - For the protection of the revenue against the undervaluation of land, if the Commissioner is of opinion that the owner of any land has, in a return furnished under this Act, understated the unimproved value of the land, the following provisions shall apply : - The Commissioner may apply to the High Court for a declaration that the Commonwealth is entitled to acquire the land under this Act. The application shall be heard by a Justice of the High Court, whose decision shall be final and without appeal ; and the owner of the land shall be entitled to be heard. If the Justice - (i.) is satisfied that the owner has understated the unimproved value of the land ; and (ii.) is not satisfied that the undervaluation was not made wilfully with a view to evading taxation, he shall make the declaration applied for. Thereupon the Governor-General may acquire the land on behalf of the Commonwealth ; and for that purpose may, within a reasonable time, by proclamation declare that the land is vested in the Commonwealth, but subject to all leases mortgages and other charges affecting the land. The effect of the proclamation shall be to vest the land in the Commonwealth for the same estate or interest therein as the owner was entitled to at the date of the publication of the proclamation in the Gazette, but subject to all leases mortgages and other charges then affecting the land, and to entitle the owner to compensation therefor upon the basis of the improved value obtained by adding the fair value of improvements to the unimproved value stated in the return. 4120 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I propose to ask the Committee to amend this clause by adding, after the word " land," in line 5, the words " to the extent of 25 per centum or more;" by inserting the same words as a consequential amendment in subparagraph i. of paragraph c ; by striking out sub-paragraph ii. of paragraph c, and by adding to paragraph e a provision that the owner shall also be paid an allowance of 10 per cent. upon the improved value mentioned in the paragraph for compulsory dispossession. The clause, then, as amended, will provide that where there is an undervaluation to the extent of 25 per cent. or more, the Commissioner may apply to a Justice of the High Court, who, if satisfied that there has been undervaluation to that extent, may make the declaration necessary to clothe the Commissioner with the powers set out in the clause, and the Commonwealth may then acquire the land for that price, plus 10 per cent. upon the whole value, whatever it is. 4120 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - Following the example of New Zealand. 4120 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - To some extent, we are. Practically, that was the arrangement in the case of the Cheviot estate. Honorable members will see that an important change is to be made in the clause by these amendments. Formerly, it was not necessary to prove any particular amount of undervaluation, and the intention to defraud need not be shown. It was a sort of Scotch verdict of " not proven." The clause, as it will be amended, will require the Commissioner to prove only the one fact, that there has been, whether wilfully or not, an under valuation of 25 per cent. or more. That will then place the Commonwealth in the position, subject to the Constitution, of acquiring the land by paying 10 per cent. above, not the unimproved value, but the value of the land, whatever it is. 4120 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN . -The clause will be considerably improved in some respects by the amendments suggested by the Attorney-General, but in other respects, if I apprehend the effect of the amendments correctly, it will not be improved. I had on the margin of my Bill a note to insert in sub-paragraph i. of paragraph c, the words " to the extent of 25 per cent." after the word " has." That is to the same effect as the amendment foreshadowed by the Attorney-General. As, however, this is a rather unnecessary clause, we ought to make it as little drastic as possible. I call it unnecessary because South Australia has no such provision. I understand that New Zealand has it, but I have not been able to find out the number of cases in which it has been put into operation there. I believe there have been some purchases. I have heard of one or two cases in which the Commissioner has suddenly jumped on a man by offering 10 per cent. on his valuation and taking the land over, but I cannot say, from any research that I have been able to make, whether it has been found necessary in New Zealand to put the section into effect. In South Australia, in order to be sure about the matter, I asked the Taxation Department whether they have had many cases of sales of land under the Act owing to the tax being two years in arrear. There, under the Taxation Act, they have power to do what municipal corporations can do when rates are in arrears. They may make application to the Court for the sale of the land, but I believe that in only one or two cases has it been found necessary to take that course owing to the extent to which the tax was in arrears. If that is so, it shows that this clause is really unnecessary, because the other remedies were action in Court for the amount, or distress upon the goods and chattels of the defaulting taxpayer; and in all cases except one or two, where I believe the land was derelict, the ordinary provisions for the recovery of debts, coupled with the power to ask for sale, have been found thoroughly effective. They are always effective in the case of municipalities, which have had legislation on this question Ibr fifty or sixty years - indeed, before any land taxation was imposed in Australia. That being so, I regard this clause as unnecessary ; and if read in connexion with the Lands Acquisition Act of 1906, as it must be, it is likely to lead to a good deal of embarrassment. This clause must be read in connexion with that Act. 4121 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Not necessarily. 4121 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Yes; sub-clause / says that when the proclamation declaring the compulsory taking of the land is put into force, the provisions of the Lands Acquisition Act apply as far as they are applicable. That will mean the dislocation of the terms of wills and deeds of trusts. This power is not vested in an ordinary freeholder as denned by the Bill, but, under the Lands Acquisition Act, in a wide category of persons with subordinate interests, who are regarded as owners for the purposes of the Act. Whether we may have to amplify "owner" under the Bill to meet the requirements in regard to the Lands Acquisition Act, I cannot say; but it is quite clear that we can upset settlements by applying that Act; and to the extent to which settlements are destroyed we shall be obliged to make compensation, and to bring into force a whole host of provisions necessary in acquiring lands for public purposes. Under this Bill, however, all that is clearly unnecessary; and it is a great pity to interfere with settlements and other interests under the circumstances. If the clause be not excised its terms ought to be cut down as much as possible; and I suggest that after the word "Act" the words "wilfully with a view to evade taxation "be inserted. Unless the Commissioner thinks there is attempt at evasion, he should not ask a Court of Justice to declare for compulsory purchase. If this provision is not required for the purpose of recovering the tax, it ought not to be introduced merely as a penal clause for punishing people for doing something that does not involve injury to the State. All the justification that we find for the amendment of the Attorney-General is that there may be undervaluation to the extent of 25 per cent. ; and if there be such undervaluation the declaration must be made, however innocently the taxpayer may have acted. 4121 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - How can he complain if he gets 10 per cent, more than- his own valuation? 4121 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - A man may complain of the loss of his land even if he gets 50 per cent, more than his valuation. An estate may have been left to various children, and those interests may have been mortgaged. 4121 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - A Court would not make an order in such a case. 4121 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - But the clause says " shall," and I suggest that the word should be "may." If the clause remains it ought not to be more drastic than our sense of expediency prescribes. I venture to say that in 25 per cent, of the cases, there will be innocent errors of the sort mentioned, and I nm speaking on the evidence afforded by the first and only returns asked for in South Australia. 4121 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - As under the Customs Act, all the undervaluations will be "innocent " I 4121 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The Minister of Trade and Customs in his short term of office has become almost as suspicious as some of his own detectives. In Customs matters the Department cannot check values which are at the place of export. It should be necessary to show that the undervaluation is wilful with a view to evade taxation ; and the Attorney-General himself saw the necessity for altering the clause, only his alteration, instead of curing the defects, puts aside altogether the necessity of raising the question of wilfulness or evasion. Under the circumstances, I move - That after the word " Act," line 4, the words " wilfully with a view to evading taxation " be inserted. 4121 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - I do not know whether honorable members are yet fully seized of what the amendment of the Attorney-General really means ; but it seems to me that the honorable gentleman's proposal removes the last rag of decency from a measure already sufficiently drastic in the way of spoliation. The valuation of land with all improvements, in some districts, and under some circumstances, admits of innocent error far exceeding 25 per cent. ; and this fact is known to any one of experience. I do not say that this applies to all cases. In the case of city lands it rarely applies, though sometimes it does ; but in the case of some country lands it applies frequently. If there be room for error in the case of lands for which there is a market value and price with the improvements, there is infinitely more room in the case of what we call the unimproved value - when we have first to ascertain the improved value, and then subtract that very vague and indefinite thing called the unimproved value. The original provisions of the Bill were sufficiently drastic, the assumption being that every land-owner whose valuation differed from that of the Commissioner was a rogue. But an opportunity was given to prove that he was not, and that opportunity is now to be taken from him. In all cases in which there is a difference of 25 per cent. in regard to that very indefinite thing, the unimproved value of land, between the valuation of the land-owner and that of the officer appointed to make a valuation, the land-owner is to be deemed a criminal, and his land is to be taken from him, without a chance being given to him to show that he did not wilfully undervalue his land. Were it not for my belief that the clause will in all probability be declared unconstitutional, and may drag down the measure with it, I should regard this as an extremely serious matter. No doubt, as the Minister of Trade and Customs interjected, the Customs Act imposes on the man who imports goods at a certain valuation the onus of proving that that valuation is correct ; but the value of goods is always definite, and easily ascertainable from invoices. Honorable members on this side can only protest - but we must protest as strongly as we can - against violent injustice done in the name of taxation. I hope that the amendment of the honorable member for Angas will be carried, or, at all events, that the opportunity will be taken by those on this side to express their opinion of this kind of legislation. 4122 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I am at a loss to know how to please some honorable members. I have brought down a proposal which more than meets the suggestions made to me, and now further suggestions are put forward which, if adopted, would virtually disembowel the measure. We have been told that the effect of the tax will be to depreciate land values by from 50 to 70 per cent., and to create chaos in the real estate market. If honorable gentlemen opposite believe that, they should be glad to accept my proposal, which enables landed proprietors to unload on the Commonwealth at their own valuation plus 10 per cent. Personally, if I could sell whatever land I might own at my own valuation plus 10 per cent., I should consider that I was doing remarkably well by the transaction. If a man deliberately undervalues- 4122 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - " Deliberately " ? 4122 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Every man's valuations must be taken to be deliberate. The provision now before the Committee would work out in this way : If a man possessing an estate worth £100,000 valued it at £70,000, the Government would have the option of purchasing it at£80,000. What cause of complaint would such a man have, were the option exercised, even though the undervaluation might have been unintentional ? 4122 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The proposal is that the Commonwealth shall be at liberty to take from a land-owner his property at 15 per cent. under what it says is the correct value. 4122 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - We have heard it stated over and over again that land value are largely a matter of opinion, one valuator fixing a high price and another a low one. 4122 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Every one does not wish to sell his land. 4122 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Those who do not wish to part with their land will be careful in valuing it, which is all that is asked. I ascertained to-day from the Minister in charge of the New Zealand legislation that the Government of the Dominion did not continue the provision under which estates had to be resumed at 10 per cent., in addition to the valuation, because the Cheviot estate cost £400,000, and it was afraid that it might be asked to purchase five or six others. It had not the option which we ask for. Every one must know what his land is worth to him. 4122 KJC ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910 0 0 IRVINE, Hans Mr HANS IRVINE - A man may not know the unimproved value of his land. 4122 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Why should a man have to overvalue to be on the safe side? 4122 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - To be on the safe side, an owner must value his land at a price at which he is prepared to sell it. If that valuation is 25 per cent. below what is considered a fair valuation, the Government will be able to buy the land at the amount of the valuation plus 10 per cent. The difficulties referred to by the honorable member for Angas are met by paragraph e, because the interest which passes is the interest of the person who makes the undervaluation. Should such a person be a life tenant, all that will pass will be his own estate. 4122 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - The undervaluation may be made by a trustee under a settlement. 4122 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Then the interests of the various beneficiaries will pass. 4123 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I do not see how the provision can be worked. 4123 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Lands Acquisition Act has nothing to do with our power to acquire land. We may buy land anywhere as an ordinary purchaser, the power to acquire land being inherent in any Government unless withheld from it by its Constitution, and there is nothing in our Constitution which prevents us from acquiring land. The object of the provision is to protect the revenue. The Customs Act contains a similar provision, it being provided in section 161 that - For the protection of the revenue against the under-valuation of goods subject to ad valorem duties, any goods entered as of a specified value may at any time before sale and delivery to a person who shall prove, to the satisfaction of the collector, that he purchased and took delivery in good faith and without any knowledge of the entry, and subject as may be prescribed, be purchased by the Customs at their declared value with an addition of Ten pounds peT centum on the amount of such value. What is proposed here is virtually identical with the provision which I have read. 4123 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Why does the honorable member address merely the members of his own party? 4123 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I am addressing the Committee. The remark is a most impudent one. 4123 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member was addressing himself wholly to the members of his own party. 4123 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I turned towards the honorable member for Hume because 1 thought that he was taking a special interest in this matter. Contrasting the methods of this Government with those of the last' in regard to vital measures, I am bound to say that the advantage is with us. The honorable member must know perfectly well that the Government have a majority. I am doing my very best to meet objections from every quarter ; but the Government must stand by a measure in which it believes, regardless of whether or not the Opposition believe in it, and I am endeavouring, as well as I am able, to put the case from our stand-point. Surely the Opposition do not expect me also to put their side of the case before the Committee. In my opinion, the effect of an acquisition of the land will be to acquire only, as set forth in paragraph e, the estate of a person who has made an undervaluation. My honorable friend has spoken of the position of trustee estates, and I have already said that my opinion is that what will pass will be the estate of a beneficiary, whatever that is. 4123 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I think that the honorable member will find that the wording of the forfeiture clause, being different from this, throws doubt upon that contention. 4123 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I draw the attention of honorable members to paragraph d, and would remind them that " owner " includes a trustee. A trustee has a legal estate, subject generally to the equitable estate of the beneficiary, life tenants, and so forth. Whatever the interest of the owner is, that, as I understand paragraphs d and e, .will be the estate that the Commonwealth will acquire. I am unable to accept the amendment moved by the honorable member for Angas ; and if it be rejected, I shall ask the Committee to agree to the amendments of .which I have given notice. 4123 KTT Parkes FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH . - The honorable gentleman in charge of this Bill has shown a little displeasure at an observation of mine, which I wish to repeat. I remind him, again, that he has had a previous opportunity of addressing his own party in caucus during the last three months- 4123 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member to confine his remarks to the clause before the Chair. 4123 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The Attorney-General has been addressing himself to an amendment proposed by a member of the Opposition, and one would have expected him. according to the ordinary rules of debate, to address his answer to the side of the House that proposed the amendment. 4123 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I addressed myself to the remarks made by the honorable member for Flinders and the honorable member for Angas, who traversed the whole clause. 4123 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - And, in doing so, the honorable gentleman turned almost completely towards his own party for at least ten minutes. If we advance arguments from this side of the Committee, it is only fair to expect the Attorney-General to address his reply, partly, to us. It may be that he wished to address the honorable member for Hume, whom, as the third party in the House, he is entitled to try to convince, in order to turn the scale, in the event of a division. The issue under discussion is very simple, and really reduces itself to a question of whether or not some evidence shall be required to. show that an undervaluation is wilful. The provision proposed by the honorable member for Angas, which the Attorney-General has spent a quarter-of-an-hour in endeavouring to show to be unnecessary, was really contained in -his Bill as originally introduced. In sub-clause 2 of paragraph c he will find the very principle for which the honorable member for Angas is contending. 4124 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member, as usual, is in error. 4124 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member has struck that identical principle out of his own Bill. 4124 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member is in error. 4124 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That is for the Committee to determine. The Attorney-General provided in his own Bill that one of the conditions of forfeiture should be that the Justice was ' 1 not satisfied that the undervaluation was not made wilfully." That was an adoption of a method of procedure pioneered in Commonwealth legislation by the late Mr. C. C. Kingston. The Attorney-General provided that there must be an element of. wilful misrepresentation to satisfy the Justice ; but that provision he himself has since struck out. The honorable member for Angas now says to the honorable gentleman, " Your first thought was right. There should be an element of wilfulness in this offence," and he therefore proposes to replace in the Bill the clause which the Attorney-General originally had there. 4124 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member seems to be unable to see the difference between the clause, as amended by me, and the clause as it originally stood. 4124 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Will the honorable member allow sub-paragraph 2 of paragraph c to remain if the amendment be withdrawn? Will he leave the Bill as it was? I refer to this matter to show that the Attorney-General addressed his arguments to his own party to convince them, not that the amendment, as proposed by the honorable member for Angas, was wrong, but that he himself was wrong in the first place, and was now seeking to do that which was right. The question is whether we are going to compel people to be dragged before a Court with respect to an alleged undervaluation, and, as the honorable member for Flinders has contended, to empower a Judge or magistrate to forfeit a man's land at 10 per cent, over his own valuation, or 15 per cent, under the valuation made by the Crown, without some evidence of its being wilfully or knowingly done? 4124 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Does the honorable gentleman think that any Court would make such an order? 4124 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It must do so. In the clause we have the word "shall," not "may"; and a magistrate will be a mere automaton,- controlled by this statutory power. In the case of a man who has valued his estate at £10,000, whereas the Government say that it is worth £12,500, the Government now propose, not that they should take over that estate at their' officer's valuation of £12,500, but that they should take it over at £11,000, 10 per cent, over the owner's valuation, or, roughly, 15 per cent, under the valuation of the Government's own officers. The Attorney-General did not seem to understand the argument advanced, by the honorable member for Flinders. He said that, in a case of alleged undervaluation, a man would receive 10 per cent, on the proper valuation. The whole contention, in regard to value, is, however, that that advance would be 10 per. cent., not on the real value, but on the alleged undervaluation. Under the Customs Act the real value is taken. 4124 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We are putting it on the same basis - the value stated by the importer, in the one case, and that stated by the owner, in the other. 4124 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - There is no parallel between the circumstances of this clause and those of the section in the Customs Act to which the honorable gentleman has referred. In the case of goods there is an ascertainable value, concerning which experts will agree ; but the position in regard to land is altogether different. I do not know that the Attorney-General has had much practice on questions of land values, but in resumption cases - and I speak with a great deal of experience - half-a-dozen experts will sometimes give widely different valuations, differing, in some instances, to the extent of 50 per cent. It is strange that an attempt should be made to introduce into this Bill a drastic provision of this kind, which assumes that we are dealing with dishonest men. There are, doubtless, plenty of dishonest men in the world ; but it is a fair rule of life to presume a man to be honest until it is proved that he .is dishonest. In a Bill of this kind, which deals in a comprehensive and drastic manner with the principal form of wealth in this country, it hardly becomes us to begin with the assumption that every land-owner is dishonest, and to throw upon him the onus of showing, not that he is not dishonest, but that he has not undervalued his land, however innocently. This amendment is really a proposal to reinstate a provision of the Bill as originally introduced, and which the Attorney-General has .had time to discuss and to consider with the members of his party. I think I can say that, if he is prepared to restore the clause to the form in which it stood as introduced, the honorable member for Angas will not press his amendment. If that is done a land-owner will have an opportunity of showing that he has not made a dishonest valuation in the return submitted by him to the authorities. 4125 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - I appeal to the Attorney-General to withdraw this clause. Its object is, presumably, to secure correct valuations, and there are already in the Bill penal clauses providing for the punishment of any person who sends in a false return deliberately understating the value of his land with intent to defraud. Any one who does that will be liable, on conviction, to have his land forfeited. If he does any other acts, or neglects to do certain things, with the intention of evading the tax, he is also liable to conviction and his land to forfeiture. Those provisions being already in the Bill, there is no necessity for this clause. 4125 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Does the honorable member call it a penalty to give a man 10 per cent, more than he thinks his land is worth ? 4125 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - It is a penalty, because he may be living on his own property and - working it as his business. He may be in the city and may not want to sell the land' at all. It may be essential to him to carry his business on in that particular spot where he has the goodwill of his business; but under this clause the Commonwealth can take the whole of his property from him and thereby deprive him of his means of livelihood. If that is not a penalty I do not know what is. If what the Attorney-General is aiming at is a correct valuation, the whole of the machinery of the Bill is directed towards that end. A man sends in his return, and it is the duty of the Commissioner immediately he receives it to go into it and see if it is correct. If the Commissioner does not think it is correct, he assesses the value, and that assessment stands unless the owner successfully appeals against it. There you have the complete machinery to obtain a correct assessment. In this case, the whole procedure is stopped beforehand. The man is not allowed to get to the Appeal Court to see if his valuation is correct or not. The matter is taken out of the hands of the Court altogether. As soon as the man sends iii his assessment, the Commissioner, if of opinion that it is 25 per cent, lower than it ought to be, does not try to have it corrected, but takes steps right away under this clause for the purpose of depriving the man of his land. The clause is evidently not for the purpose of getting a correct assessment at all. 4125 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Does not this clause create, as it were, a superior Appeal Court ? 4125 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - It is not an appeal at all. The owner sends in what he thinks is the fair value of his property ; but, without getting it assessed by the Commissioner and heard by the ordinary Assessment Court, he finds the matter taken clean out of his hands, and an application made to the Court for the enforcement of these provisions. The Attorney-General is by no means following the New Zealand proce-dure in this case. In New Zealand the man sends in his return to the Commissioner, who assesses it. If the owner be dissatisfied, he can go to the Appeal Court, and the Court assesses the value. After the value has been assessed by the Assessment Court, and evidence heard on both sides, the Commissioner may, if dissatisfied, come in and attempt to acquire the land. If the Commissioner is of opinion that any land has been fixed by the Assessment Court at less than its capital value, he may give notice to the owner that he requires the owner to consent to the capital value being fixed at a sum specified in the notice - being the sum which, in the opinion of the Commissioner, is the fair value of the land - and that failing such consent being given, after the notice, the Commissioner may recommend the Governor _ to acquire the land on behalf of His Majesty at that sum. The owner may consent to the capital value being fixed at the sum specified in the notice, or at any other sum agreed to by him and the Commissioner. If there be no consent by the owner, then the land may be acquired. On the other hand, procedure is given to protect the owner where he is not satisfied with the value of the land as fixed by the Assessment Court. He may give notice to the Commissioner requiring the amount to be reduced to the amount specified in a notice, or requiring the land to be acquired on behalf of His Majesty at the sum specified in the notice. That is an entirely different procedure from what the Attorney-General contemplates. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The present position in New Zealand is not the one under which the Cheviot estate was acquired. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I know that; but the Attorney-General referred to New Zealand and implied that his proposal was analogous to the procedure there. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I explained that it had been abandoned there for the reasons which I gave. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member by section references in a side note to the Bill, asks us to compare this provision with the New Zealand procedure, but a comparison shows that there is absolutely no precedent for it in the New Zealand Act. New Zealand had to abandon that practice. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - They did not " have to " at all. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - At any rate, they did it. They have substituted a very much fairer procedure, and that is why I appeal to the Attorney-General to modify this clause in accordance with the New Zealand Act, if it is to remain in the Bill at all. He also has some doubts as to its constitutionality. Why is there a preamble to it? There is never a preamble to clauses in our legislation. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It is copied from the Customs Act. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - As a rule, preambles are not put into clauses. The Attorney- General wants to conceal the fact that what he is really after is the acquisition of lands. The preamble is intended to convey the idea that the clause is put into the Bill only for the purpose of protecting the revenue, but paragraph h reveals the real intention of the clause. The object is that, if the State Government does not require the land, the Commonwealth shall acquire it, and sell or lease it as it thinks fit, and thus initiate a Federal land policy. The Attorney-General stated during the debate that under this clause he was exercising the power of acquiring public lands. He cannot support the constitutionality of this clause upon that power, because he is not exercising in it the power of acquiring lands for public purposes. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We have that power. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - But the way prescribed by the Constitution is not the way in which the honorable member is exercising it. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We are exercising the power in every way that we have it. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If the Attorney-General is going to base the clause on that power, the responsibility rests with him. He is also treating trust estates exceedingly unfairly under this clause. In a great many trust estates the land is vested in the trustee who holds it as an estate of fee-simple. Under this clause, if a trustee quite innocently undervalues to the extent of 25 per cent., power is given to the Commonwealth to acquire the whole of the estate in fee-simple. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Paragraph e is an effective answer to the honorable member. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member is quite wrong. That paragraph protects only leases, mortgages, and other charges. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The effect of the proclamation would be to vest the land in the same interests. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - An estate of fee-simple vested in the trustee? 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Subject to the charges. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Does the Attorney-General contend that this clause will preserve all trust estates, and that that is the intention ? 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Certainly. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If that is the intention, I ask the Attorney-General to look more closely into the clause, and be perfectly sure that it carries out the intention. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It says subject to their liability, whatever it is. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I warn the Attorney-General to look again at the drafting of the clause if the intention is that, in exercising this power, the Commonwealth should take over trust estates and hold the land subject to the same trusts and conditions as before. 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I did not say that. I said subject to the liability of the beneficiaries themselves. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If a trustee holding the estate in fee simple, subject to certain trusts, makes a false return, under what conditions will the Government hold that land? 4126 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - In my opinion, the Commissioner would not proceed against a trustee. 4126 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - That is not the point. If the Commissioner does proceed, under what conditions will he hold the land? 4127 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member might as well ask me how I am going to fly from here to the post-office. My answer is that I do not intend to fly. 4127 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The Attorney-General is asking for a power to be vested in the Commonwealth. Under the Lands Acquisition Act, he is taking the widest powers possible, and in doing that he is under an obligation to see that all trust estates are properly preserved. However, I will leave the matter to him. 4127 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Does the honorable member say that where a trustee has, without the knowledge or consent of the beneficiaries, done something that brings the estate under this clause, the trust estate ought not to be liable? 4127 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I am asking if the land is taken over by the Commonwealth, will it not be subject to the same trusts and conditions, or does the Commonwealth take the fee-simple, and simply compensate the' trustee by handing over the sums necessary under the clause? 4127 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Is the honorable member seeking to protect the interests of the beneficiaries or not? 4127 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I am trying to find out the powers given under the clause, and the intention behind them. The honorable member for Angas has given one interpretation. In view of the fact that there is already complete machinery in the Bill to insure proper valuation, I urge the Attorney-General to accept the suggestion of the honorable member for Angas, or withdraw the clause altogether. 4127 KIN Hume 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE . - I wish to ask the Attorney-General, not as a member of the Opposition, but as one who is iri favour of a certain class of land taxation, if he has well considered this clause. I do not intend to present the legal aspect of it, but I have thought from the very first that it is unconstitutional. The country certainly declared in favour of land taxation, and of land taxation up to 4d. in the £I and it would be a pity to have any provision in the Bill which is unconstitutional. If the Attorney-General is not very careful there will be every inducement for the High Court to throw out this clause and with it the Bill. 4127 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - He has had his warning ! 4127 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - But the warnings have come from his enemy. 4127 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Still, a warning is worth taking, even from an enemy. [>47J- 2 4127 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - I _ am now speaking in the interests of proper land taxation; and I do not desire to see any provision inserted which will render the Bill ineffective, and, as the honorable member for Flinders has said, lead to its rejection by the High Court. I do not think that what the Attorney-General has said about the Customs Act applies at all. The section of the Constitution gives us power only to acquire land for public purposes. 4127 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It does not prevent our selling land. 4127 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - This is not an optional purchase of land, but compelling an owner to sell it. In my opinion, the High Court will take the view that it is not a voluntary purchase, in view of section 51 of the Constitution, which is - (xxxi.) The acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws : If we take a man's property whether he consents or not, it is not a purchase; and I ask the Attorney-General to weigh' the matter well before he approves such a provision. With the honorable member for Angas I do not think that a man should be punished unless he wilfully does something wrong. What the amendments of the Attorney-General are I do not know ; but I think it would be foolish if he proposes a clause which will have the effect of punishing a man for an act which is not a wilful act. The unimproved value is very difficult to ascertain, be he as honest as he may. I think I know as much about land as most people, and I feel sure that in estimating the unimproved value, I should sometimes find myself very far out in my reckoning. I scarcely know what course must be taken to ascertain the unimproved value; but I can quite conceive that a person may innocently be 25 per cent, below the true figure. I rose mainly to express my emphatic opinion that the clause is unconstitutional. We have no power under the Constitution to deal with land after we have got it. We cannot sell it to immigrants. 4127 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Why not? 4127 KIN 0 0 LYNE, William Sir WILLIAM LYNE - Before the Bill was introduced I talked over the subject with the Prime Minister, and I told him what I am saying now. I have heard it stated that some arrangement is to be made with the States to take the land over under their laws; but I can see no power that we have to that end under the Constitution. "We may depend there will not be 'wanting money to fight this Bill; indeed, in my opinion, this Bill will be fought as no Bill has ever been fought in Australia. Every technical point that can be taken to the High Court will find its way there ; and I think I am safe in saying that hundreds of thousands of pounds will be readily found to support the views of the opponents of the measure. On this ground alone we ought to be most careful not to insert any doubtful provisions. I desire these opinions to be placed on record now, because I am firmly convinced that it was not the intention of the framers of the Constitution that we should take into our hands lands for purposes such as those contemplated in the Bill. I speak as a member of the Federal Convention knowing what the feeling there was, and I can say that this clause was intended merely to give us power to acquire lands required for carrying on the government of the Commonwealth. The sub-clause was deliberately surrounded with conditions to prevent our taking anything unduly from the States; and as the members of the High Court Bench are aware of the facts, the Attorney-General will do well to reconsider the clause. The penalties are very severe, and should be sufficient, without providing foi the compulsory taking of land. There may be those who say I am wrong in my view, but such views ought to be expressed, if there is any idea that the Bill is placed in jeopardy. 4128 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I trust that this issue, which is a very important one, will not be obscured. This is not a question of land taxation. 4128 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - It is a question of punishing those who will not pay the tax. 4128 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - We must all admit that this is not essential to land taxation. It is a matter upon which men, irrespective of their views on land taxation or any principles associated with this measure, can unite. This is an entirely separate question, only indirectly associated with land taxation. The object is to penalize an owner who, in the opinion of some other persons, has undervalued his property by more than a certain percentage. What is the evidence brought against that owner? The evidence of professional and Crown valuers, given- on oath, who are subject to no penalty, however extravagant their estimates may be. The necessities of their employment lead them to lean to their clients, and to fix a valuation as high as their conscience will allow. This they do professionally, being subject to no penalty ; so we have the owner, with all these extreme penalties hanging over his head, pitted against men who are acting simply in a professional capacity, and who differ much among themselves in their business calculations, as valuers notoriously do differ. That being clear, I have here two illustrations taken from the State of which the Attorney-General is a representative. I quote them because they are within the experience of a man of standing known to myself. In one instance, that of a suburban area, he placed the unimproved value of his vacant land at £25 an acre. This was set down by the Government valuers at £40 an acre; and on this they insisted under examination and cross-examination. The result was that the Judge visited the spot, and decided that £25 was a fair valuation. Here was an error on the part of the sworn Government valuers of more than 25 per cent. ; yet on their side there was no risk and no penalty for an honest mistake. The second illustration is one which the Attorney-General may recognise, because it attained some repute. Again it was a question of suburban land, in North Sydney, valued by the owner at £4 a foot. The Crown valuer and another authorized sworn valuer assessed the land at £9 a foot. There was a great deal of cross-examination, and in the end the sworn valuer, who had been called in, offered the proprietor in Court £6 a foot, which was promptly accepted. The Judge, not deterred, visited the land with the experts, and, after examination, fixed the value at £4 a foot; by this time the gentleman who had agreed to purchase at £6 repudiated his bargain. In this case we have an error of over 100 per cent., upon evidence given, no doubt, in good faith. The land- valuers assessed the value to the best of their ability, but, of course, leaning to the side of their clients' requirements so far as they honestly could. We have to face the fact that in these cases the scales are not evenly weighted. If those who support the higher valuations ran any risk, measurable, with those of the owner, there would be an element of equity, which' at present is conspicuously wanting. We have valuers whose official reputation is not injured when they fix the highest possible value in a sanguine mood, pitted against a man subject to extraordinary penalties if he undervalues his property. 4129 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWilliams - Professional valuations often differ to the extent of 33 per cent. 4129 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - We know from our own experience that they differ continually. The two cases I have given are illustrative of many. What we have really to consider is how we can make the sanctions and penalties for true and false evidence anything like equal, so that those who value on the one side shall have the same measure of liability as those who value on the other. Unless we can achieve this, there must be hardship. 4129 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Commissioner's valuation may be overruled by a Justice of the High Court, and the provision will still apply. 4129 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - So the Bill proposes. In all cases where we have on one side the Crown with its power, authority, and inexhaustible means, and on the other a private individual, protection for the latter against aggression and mistake is essential. Those who wilfully undervalue their estates should be punished severely. That is just. 4129 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - We are trying to provide for that. 4129 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - My complaint is that honorable members opposite are not trying to do so. They put on one side professional opinion, with no liability, and on the other the opinion of a man who, having everything at stake, is also subject to a heavy penalty should his valuation be 25 per cent. below that of the person who values for the Government. However large any holding may be, its owner must be a weakling compared with the Crown, with its inexhaustible purse, and power to heap evidence on evidence. The provision is one with which no fair-minded man should wish to be associated. None of us would like to exercise the authority here given. Valuations are opinions, they are estimates, and often assumptions. The Attorney-General should at least accept the suggestions from his own side, to make the scales of justice fairly even, instead of weighting them heavily against the owner of the land. 4129 L1P Gippsland 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE .- I am sorry that the Attorney-General will not accept the amendment of the honorable member for Angas, because it is wrong to punish for acts which have not been done wilfully. It must be remembered that the differences in the valuations of experts, to which reference has been made, occur in regard to the valuing of land with all its improvements, and if experts vary as to the value of land with its improvements, they must vary far more in regard to the unimproved value of land. According to the definition clause - " Unimproved value " in relation to land means the capital sum which the fee-simple of the land might be expected to realize if offered for sale on such reasonable terms and conditions as a bona fide seller would require, assuming that the actual improvements thereon, or appertaining thereto, and made by the owner or his predecessor in title, had not been made. 4129 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Such a valuation would require a historical research. 4129 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE - Exactly. The first difficulty that arises is as to the improvements appertaining to the land. Had an amendment proposed by the honorable member for Richmond been agreed to, owners would have had some idea of the allowances to be made in respect to improvements, but the definition I have read is so wide that great difference of opinion will exist as to whether drains, embankments against inundation, and other works of that kind, are improvements appertaining to the land whose value is under consideration. In regard to these matters alone a bona fide error of at least 25 per cent. may be made. It is also provided that - " Value of improvements " in relation to land means the added value which the improvements give to the land at the date of valuation, irrespective of the cost of the improvements. A bona fide mistake of at least 25 per cent. might easily be made in applying that definition. 4129 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Does the honorable member think that a land-owner will be punished for a bond fide mistake? 4129 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE - Yes. Apparently, the honorable member has not read the provision under discussion, which, if the unimproved value of land is understated, allows the Commissioner to apply to the High Court, and if the Justice is satisfied that the owner has understated the value to the extent of 25 per cent., the land may be acquired by the Government. It is not necessary that the understatement should be wilful. Before a man can value his land, he will have to come to a decision, not merely on questions of fact, but on questions of law arising out of the facts. There is nothing more difficult to value than country land, in regard to which a great many things have to be taken into consideration. I have known experts to undervalue as well as to overvalue. The price which land will fetch at auction often depends on the number of persons present at the sale, and on the position of those who want certain blocks. I have known land on which a reserve price of £2 an acre has been put to bring £8 an acre. I concur with what has been said as to the probable unconstitutionality of this part of the measure; but, apart from that, I do not think that these powers should be exercised unless it can be proved that there has been a wilful understatement of value for the purpose of evading taxation. 4130 KFP Wakefield ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER . - The provision under discussion is one of the thumb-screw class. The Bill, as introduced, bristled with injustice, and none of its provisions are more unjust than those under discussion. Apparently the Attorney-General desires to make the clause more generous in one direction and more unjust in another, penalizing the man who makes a mistake, whether wilfully or otherwise. He told us that the Minister in charge of the New Zealand Land Tax legislation had informed him that the Dominion had ceased to apply its powers of resumption, because it feared that it might have to resume too many estates like the Cheviot estate. Apparently, the Attorney-General looks forward to such a prospect with pleasure, which gives ground for the suspicion that the principle of land nationalization is disguised in this proposal. If the New Zealand Government did not wish to resume a large number of estates, why should the Commonwealth be in a hurry to do so? In my opinion, there is no power to take over this land. The Labour party appears to be anxious to get the last drop of blood from every landowner who possesses property of which the unimproved value exceeds £5,000; but these provisions may come back like a boomerang, and injure those responsible for them. If we on this side cannot carry the Amendment of the honorable member for Angas, we can protest strongly against the proposal of the Government. The desire of the Government ought to be to get, not an abnormal, but a fair average, valuation when these assessments are made. Under the conditions laid down by the Attorney-General that will be almost impossible. When the Government of South Australia were dealing with an amendment of the Land Taxation Act they were informed by the New Zealand Government, that they had abandoned this very principle, because it was impracticable and unworkable, and because land there was more frequently over-assessed than under-assessed. Instead of bringing about something approaching uniformity of assessment, it led to the opposite result. It was found that one man was paying on an assessment 25 or 30 per cent. more than his neighbour, and that he was paying, according to the admission of the Department, more than he ought to. simply because of the fear of the penalty that was hanging over his head. The penalty under the New Zealand Act, however, was as nothing compared with that for which this Bill provides. The Government cannot expect to have for some time a fair and satisfactory assessment. That is not likely to be secured until trained officers have been obtained, and until the whole system has been placed on something like a practical and scientific basis. Meantime, there will be penalties exacting enough without this additional penalty of taking away from a man his home and his land, because of a mistake that may have been innocently made. In the experience of every State Government having a taxation Department it is infinitely more difficult to obtain a fair assessment in Australia than it is in New Zealand. In the Dominion there are not such variations as obtain in the Commonwealth. Here, in 100 assessments we may have land that is from 100 to 300 per cent. more valuable than other land not more than a quarter of a mile away. Experience in the Courts shows that valuations of land often vary from 20 to 60 per cent., and another point to be remembered is that for taxation purposes a man is not supposed to have an assessment made at the top market price. The true principle is to get a fair average value - to determine the value of the land, not to-day, but over a given number of years. The Attorney-General knows that that principle is recognised in the Courts in connexion with State and municipal assessments, and I sincerely hope that he will accept the amendment and not introduce into the Bill machinery that will very often penalize men when they are quite innocent of any wilful misrepresentation. 4130 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I hope that since the Committee has thoroughly ventilated its opinion upon this clause we shall have an opportunity to get to a division. The points at issue are perfectly clear. There have been intruded into this discussion questions of constitutionality that are quite irrelevant. Nothing is more certain than that the clause is constitutional. Otherwise the lawyers opposite would have told us so long ago. If the Opposition were only half as sure as the honorable member for Hume is that the clause is unconstitutional they would have been twice as quick as he has been in saying so. In any case, the honorable member for Hume need have no fear that the measure is imperilled in any way, even if the clause is unconstitutional, it is clearly severable from the Bill, and in no way, therefore, is the Bill as a whole jeopardized. We have the power to do what we propose, and we ought to exercise that power. The honorable member for Wakefield has spoken of the injustice of this procedure, but if it be an injustice to ask a man to take for his land 10 per cent. more than he has said it is worth, then injustice is something with which we have never become fairly acquainted. This is hot a penalty clause in the proper sense of the term. It is merely a method of insuring that reasonable care will be taken by a taxpayer in estimating the value of his land. I freely admit that one valuator may say that land is worth £2 per acre, while another declares that it is worth £4 per acre. But if a man asked me how much I wanted for some land that I possessed, I should know what I wanted, and if he said, " Will you take anything less ?' ' I should be able to tell him at once what my decision was. Every man is in the same position. We may not know how much another man's property is worth, but we know how much we believe our own property to be worth, and we are asked to state in these assessments what we believe is the honest value. 4131 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - What happens if a taxpayer's valuation is 25 per cent. below that made by the Commissioner? 4131 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member is assuming that taxpayers are going to be so unfortunate as generally to submit valuations 25 per cent. below the real value of their properties. The trouble in this country is not that land is too cheap, but that it is top dear - not that people charge 25 per cent. too little for their land, but that very often they ask 25 per cent. too much for it. We merely ask that a land-owner shall put a fair valuation upon his property. 4131 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - And then the Commissioner may come along and say that the valuation made by the owner is 25 per cent. below the true value. 4131 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - If the honorable member has any land, is he not able to say what he will take for it? If I said to a man, " What will you give me on my watch?" and I accepted his offer of £2, I could blame no one if, later on, I were informed that I could have obtained £3 upon it had I demanded that amount. A man has no right to value his land at, say, £2 per acre if he is not prepared to sell it at that price. 4131 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - £2 per acre might be above the market price, and yet the owner might not be' prepared to sell his land for £3 per acre. 4131 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - A man who values his land at a certain price cannot complain of being unjustly treated if some one gives him that price, plus 10 per cent., for it. 4131 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - But the unimproved value is the market price, less improvements. 4131 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member for Gippsland has been speaking as if the question of unimproved value were something new. It was the unimproved value which he said at the last general election he was in favour of taxing, and I point out that it is idle for a man to be in favour of a land tax if he is not in favour of making such a tax effective. It is well known that evasions are not easier under the Customs Act than they will be under this measure ; yet they go on with some regularity, and occasionally we hear of very substantial cases. Section 161 of the Customs Act deals with those honest and honorable gentlemen who are at some loss to put down the real value of the goods they import, and who resort to faked invoices. 4131 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - That provision is absolutely necessary, because the value referred to is the value in other parts of the world. 4131 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I do not deny that; but my contention is that when a taxpayer has said that his land is worth a certain price per acre, the Commissioner should be entitled to acquire it on paying an extra 10 per cent. I do not blame those who were returned here in opposition to land taxation for endeavouring to defeat this Bill, but I do blame those who, although returned to support the principle, are ready to emasculate the Bill by omitting from it provisions that will make it effective. I emphatically declare this to be one of the most salutary provisions of the Bill - to insure that the assessment made by every individual taxpayer shall be an approximately fair assessment of the value of his land. If a man values his land at a certain price, and will not sell it at that price, he must have an idea that it is worth a great deal more, and has undervalued it, because he desires to pay less taxation than he ought to do. The honorable member for Parkes said that this amendment merely repeated the wording of the sub-clause in the Bill as originally introduced. That is true in one sense, but not in the proper sense, because the clause will be so modified by the amendment which I have foreshadowed, that practically its whole purport will be entirely changed, and to retain the whole of the sub-clause would be to defeat the purposes of the section. In reply to the honorable member for Wakefield, I would say that New Zealand abandoned this principle for a reason quite different from that which he gave us. To begin with, the principle in the New Zealand Act differed from this in an essential particular, in that, when a price had been fixed which the owner would not accept as a fair valuation, the State had to take it at its own valuation if it were lower. In view of the existence of large estates like the Cheviot estate, worth £400,000, the New Zealand Government were a little timid at going on. We are not in that position. Mr. Fowlds, the New Zealand Minister of Education, who is well versed in the Act, declared that there was no more effective method of securing sound assessments of the true value than such a provision as this. It is perfectly fair and constitutional, in keeping with the whole aim and scope of the measure, and amply justified by precedents, and I hope the Committee will accept it. 4132 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON -- I wish to enter my protest against the clause, and express the hope that the amendment of the honorable member for Angas will be carried. The Attorney-General says the clause is constitutional. I pointed out before that I believe, if it is put to the test, the High Court will probably rule it out as unconstitutional. I gave some reasons on that occasion, and do not intend to go into the point again. I see no necessity for the clause. The Bill contemplates self assessment. Is it likely that the Commissioner will recommend the taking over by the Commonwealth of a. property away back from all communication, simply because the owner undervalues it? What would be the use of it to the Department if it was taken over? Consequently, the man away back will be able to undervalue his property almost with impunity, whereas another man, close to a city or means of communication, although he may make the most honest calculation possible, runs the risk of having his property taken by the Commonwealth at his own valuation, plus 10 per cent., if the Commissioner thinks the unimproved Value is 25 per cent, more than his estimate. Therefore the man will be given 15 per cent, less than the Commissioner's estimate. We do not want to penalize a man unless it is clear that he has wilfully undervalued his land. Where it is not proved that a man had a wilful intention, his land should not be taken from him at 10 per cent, above his valuation. He should be given at least a fair price for it in accordance with the Commissioner's estimate, but before any land is taken away, the owner should have the right to have the matter tested by appealing to the Court, or submitting it to arbitration. It is unfair and un-British to penalize a man if he has not intended in any way to defraud the revenue. The Attorney-General seems to think that this is a matter of buying and selling - that because a man has a piece of land, and knows what he wants for it, he should be able to put down its unimproved value at once. That contention evades the whole issue. The question is not what a man wants for his land, but what its unimproved value is. If the Attorney-General knows anything about the lands of Australia, he will know it is most difficult to accurately assess the unimproved value of countless pieces of land. I know of blocks of land which I would not be surprised to see one man value at £2 an acre, and an equally competent man, but with no better reputation as a valuer, at £4 an acre, unimproved value. The unimproved value of a block of that fine land which is now selling at such high prices in Victoria would be probably what the land would bring if it were in its native state, supposing all the other improvements were in the locality. But one man would say it would bring £[20, another £25, and another even £35 an acre, without an axe being put on to it. That shows that it is extremely difficult to get at the exact unimproved value. It would be very easy for plenty of people to honestly value their land 25 per cent, below the value the Commissioner would fix. It is unnecessary to put in a clause like this, because it is contemplated that we shall have a Commissioner to assess the land as soon as such a thing is feasible. To come suddenly upon people, and treat every one as being out to defraud the revenue, without proving him guilty of any intent in that direction, is unjust and uncalled for, and practically unheard of in British legislation. It seems, however, that the Government are out to hit the land-holder. They want to go back to a certain class of the community, and say : " We were after such and such scalps, and we have secured them." That seems to be their whole anxiety. It has long been apparent to the Opposition that it is futile to appeal to the Government on grounds of justice and fair play. The Government say they do not want to do anything unjust, but they take fine care, when easy ways of modifying their own measure without materially injuring it are pointed out, not to adopt any of them. Heaven knows that the measure, when first thrown on the table, was crude, and anomalous, and harsh j in fact, the harshest Bill ever promulgated in connexion with land taxation in Australia. 4133 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Why did not the Opposition modify the "gag" last session when they were in power? 4133 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Why do not the Government "gag" us'? The more the clause is looked into the less necessity will be seen for its retention. If the Attorney-General will not delete it altogether, I hope the Committee will carry the amendment of the honorable member for Angas. 4133 KZA East Sydney 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST .- The clause, and, in fact, the whole Bill from its very inception, has received a marvellous amount of opposition. During one period of the discussion there were fourteen members sitting on the Opposition side, and seven of them belonged to the" legal profession. Every one of those gentlemen is a direct opponent of the measure, and yet they ask the Government not to include a penal clause in the Bill. Every sane man in Australia would laugh at the Government if they did not insert a penal clause in a Land Tax Bill to deal with people who attempt to break the. law. 4133 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The Attorney-General says that" it is not a penal clause. 4133 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST - I do not know what the" Attorney-General said, but members of the Opposition have been anxious the whole of. the afternoon to defend those who would break the law if they got the opportunity. The Attorney-General, on the other hand, has been endeavouring to so frame the Bill as to prevent people from breaking it. All our laws - criminal and otherwise - contain penal clauses, the object of which is to deter people from breaking them. The object of this clause is similar, and it would be absurd for this Parliament to pass a Land Tax Bill without it. We cannot help noticing where the main opposition to the Hill is coming from. All those who have been so anxious to remove this penal clause to-day have used their best endeavours to prevent the passage of any land taxation measure whatever. The clause provides that the owner shall furnish a return of the value of his own land. That is only a reasonable request to make to those of our citizens who own land. We have heard a great deal about the difficulty of making valuations. In my occupation, and in positions that I have occupied in New South' Wales, I have had to obtain valuations of land. The valuers I have employed have been respectable business firms, and I have been sometimes in doubt whether they have not been in collusion with one another to arrive at the same figure, because their valuations have been so near to one another. No one outside this House would believe that a man who owns land does not know the value of it. Such a supposition is absolutely ridiculous and not within the realm of reason. The Attorney-General has made it very plain that no honest person need fear this clause. Honorable members who have taken part in the discussion of Tariff questions must realize that severe punishments are necessary if the revenue is not to be defrauded. We make laws against the commission of murder in order to deter people from that crime ; and we must have punishment in the case of a land tax in order to secure fair returns. I do not know whether the legal gentlemen opposite are looking to future business in their efforts to make this clause vague and uncertain ; but my opinion is that if the desire of the Committee be to prevent litigation, the punishments must be severe. It must be proved to the satisfaction of the Minister of Customs that there is an attempt to defraud ; and surely we may take it for granted that such an official will perform the duties of his office in a lenient and just way. 4133 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The honorable member has " got hold of the wrong end of the stick." 4133 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST - That is not so. The honorable member is one of those fortunate " people who own land, and he is, apparently, very anxious to keep " hold of the right end of the stick " in order to protect himself and his friends. The compulsory purchase provision is intended to prevent people breaking the law ; and I regard it as one of the most desirable in the Bill. 4134 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn -; - The honorable member does not know what the law is ! 4134 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST - I think I do, for I have been obeying the law all my life, and have never got into trouble. The Attorney- " General is only doing his best to. carry out the will of the Parliament and the country. Honorable members opposite seem to have in idea that we on this side desire to punish people simply because they own land. That idea is altogether erroneous j all we desire is to protect the honest" land-owner against the dishonest land-owner, and all honorable members who believe in land taxation, no matter on which side of the House they sit, should assist the Government in their efforts to that end. The Leader of the Opposition referred to suburban land valued at so much per foot, but, in the vast majority of cases, suburban allotments will not come within the scope of the operation of the Bill, and, therefore, the honorable gentleman's illustrations are Ml beside the point. It is essential in a measure of this sort to provide against the actions of evilly-disposed persons. The disposition to grumble at paying taxes seems, in some cases, to be innate ; and as persons who own large areas are generally covetous, the grumbling is all the louder on their part. When a man gets a few acres, he usually wants more; and this is one of the reasons for the introduction of a Land Tax Bill. In my opinion, the best interests of the country will be served by supporting the Attorney-General, because, unless we secure the revenue, our legislation will be nothing more than a farce. 4134 KYJ Bendigo 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK .- The honorable member for East Sydney is under a misapprehension as to the scope of the clause, and as to the nature of the objections of honorable members ion both sides. None of the critics of the clause has taken 'any objection to the most drastic provisions against undervaluation. If the honorable member looks at clauses 65 and 67, he will see that there are penal provisions sufficiently drastic to enforce this land tax. For instance, there is a fine of £500, with triple taxation and even forfeiture. 4134 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member is surely not in order in discussing those clauses now. 4134 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - The honorable member for East Sydney has stated that we on this side are not in favour of the penal clauses, which I know are not now under discussion j and what I am now pointing out is that the clause before us is not necessarily a part of any scheme of land taxation. We say that the clause- is, so to speak, an interpolation ; it provides a compulsory method for the acquisition of land, and the method of acquiring land or any other form of property is provided for by the Constitution, and should be dealt with in separate and appropriate legislation. 4134 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - We have to punish before we take the land. 4134 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - We on this side contend that there is ample provision in the Bill for punishment for dishonest undervaluation, without taking a man's property from him at a slight increase on his own valuation. The honorable member seems to be under the impression that this compulsory method of acquiring land is only to be brought into operation in cases of dishonest undervaluation ; and if dishonesty were the test, there would not be the same strong objection to this part of the Bill. We must remember, however, that the honorable member for Angas proposes that, before this clause operates, there shall be proof that the undervaluation is wilful. Is the honorable member for East Sydney in favour of the amendment to that end? He has said that noone can object to the penalization of the dishonest, and no one is objecting ; but we contend that this clause should not be brought into operation merely because a man makes a bond fide mistake. There may be a mere error of judgment to the extent of 10 per cent., or even 50 per cent. Such a mistake is not necessarily wilful or dishonest, and if the honorable member for East Sydney is convinced of that, I claim his vote for the amendment of the honorable member for Angas, who wishes to make it a condition that an owner shall not be deprived of his property until it has been proved that his undervaluation was wilful. A mere mistake, without metis re a,. is not to be sufficient. 4134 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - There is no provision for bringing the fact that the mistake was not wilful under the notice of the Justice. 4134 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - If the amendment of the honorable member for Angas be- agreed to, subsequent amendments will have to be made, so that effect may be given to it. 4135 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The honorable member knows that it is difficult to prove wilful intent. 4135 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - As the clause originally stood, the onus was on the landowner to prove that his undervaluation was not wilful. In revenue cases the onus of proving innocence is sometimes cast on the defendant, but that gives him the opportunity to avoid forfeiture by stating his source of knowledge. Had the clause been allowed to stand as it was, it would not have been so manifestly unjust. The provision now before us amounts to a refinement of' cruelty and injustice, men who are compelled to value their land to assist the Crown being made liable to its forfeiture for an undervaluation, even if innocently made. I object to the clause on three grounds: first, because I believe that it is unconstitutional ; secondly, because I regard it as contrary to the principles of natural justice; and, thirdly, because " I consider it unnecessary for the enforcement of land taxation. None of us objects to the imposition of heavy penalties for wilful undervaluation; but surely the penalties provided by clauses 65 and 67; under which wilful undervaluation is punishable by a fine of .£500, the levying of treble taxation, and forfeiture of the land, are sufficient. In view of the existence of these penalties, can any member of the Labour party say that the Bill, even without clause 44, would not be equipped with all provisions necessary for the punishment of dishonest valuation ? 4135 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - If I thought that the lawyers would interpret the word " wilfully " as it -is interpreted ordinarily, I should be more easily influenced by the honorable member's arguments. 4135 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - " Wilfully " is the clearest word in the criminal code; it covers "intentionally " and " dishonestly." Honorable members do npt wish to punish men who have made honest mistakes, but that will be the effect of the provision under discussion. We should not force land-owners to overvalue their properties to avoid the risk of forfeiture for undervaluation. The Attorney-General, if he refuses to take the advice of the honorable member for Angas, will be sinning against light and reason, and will render the Bill open to attack in another place. 4135 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The acceptance of the amendment of the honorable member fo* Angas would not cure any possible un-' constitutionality. 4135 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - It would make the measure more reasonable. 4135 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The original clause did what the honorable and learned member wishes us to do now. 4135 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I admit that, and I am sorry that the alteration has been proposed. 4135 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I am willing to consider the retention of sub-paragraph ii. of paragraph c if " wilfully " is left out. 4135 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - The provision would then not be open to such serious objection. 4135 JOK Batman 0 0 BEARD, Henry Mr BEARD .-- When we come to a division, the members of the Opposition should all be found voting for the clause. A great deal of fuss was made about the effect of the proposed tax on the numerous properties which are said to return only 2 per cent, on their value, it being stated that the Government was proposing to confiscate the whole profit, and to reduce the owners to bankruptcy. What would be easier under this provision than for these land-owners to undervalue their estates to the extent of 25 per cent., and to let the Government take the land at in per cent, on their valuation? If they did that, they would lose only 15 per cent, of the value of their properties, and could unload them on the Commonwealth. It might be said that the Government would not buy them; but it would have to do so for the sake of its own reputation. Having heard the burden of their song, I think that the singers will be found chirping on this side. 4135 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The only argument to support the position of the Attorney-General seems to be that of the honorable member for Batman, that the clause will relieve those whose lands are a burden to them by enabling them to unload on the Commonwealth. 4135 JOK 0 0 BEARD, Henry Mr Beard - That is the argument of the Opposition. 4135 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No one on this side has suggested a reason so foolish, and honorable members opposite are in poor case when that is their only reply to our statements. We are considering now the case of those who may honestly and bond fide undervalue, and have as little sympathy with those who may practise fraud as has the honorable member for East Sydney. That honorable gentleman, however, is not voicing the aspirations of those whom he represents in trying to impose severe penalties on innocent lawbreakers. A great deal has been said of late by members of the Labour party about certain men who are in gaol and leg-ironed for having innocently broken the law. Now they are thirsting for the blood of men who innocently break the law by making honest undervaluations. 4136 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - They are no better as lawbreakers than are the men who are in gaol. 4136 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then will the honorable member be satisfied if he can send some one else to gaol? Is that the be-all and end-all of his political existence ? It is a fine Labour aspiration. All that the honorable member wants, it seems, is to put some one under the lash of the law. How that will help those who are suffering to-day I do not know. It is not my desire that any law-breakers shall escape. A man who wilfully breaks this law should pay the penalty ; but what we are seeking to do now is to defend the man who honestly undervalues his land from having it taken from him because of that mistake. I see no reason why we should impose such a penalty. When the Attorney-General attempts to put it into operation, he will find himself, with his limited Federal powers, in a sea of difficulties, and will be the first to wish that he had never meddled with it. Those who have no thought but a selfish one in this regard could wish him joy, in a political sense, of all he obtained from it. When he puts it into operation the troubles of the Federal Government will begin. The Bill provides for other penalties that are severe enough without our going the length of declaring that a man's land and home shall be taken from him - and that is what the Government propose - in the case of an undervaluation. Let such a man be punished adequately for his offence. 4136 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - But the other penalties to which the honorable member refers do not relate to this clause. 4136 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am opposed to this clause as being wholly unnecessary. Punish a man for whatever wilful fraud can be proved against him, but why go further, and take away his land ? Are not the Government satisfied when justice has been done? If the other penalties are not considered sufficient, make them more drastic, but why pass such a provision as this? Those who have had any experience know that undervaluation and overvaluation of land is an every-day occurrence. The lands of Australia to-day, on the whole, for shire and municipal purposes, are rather over, than under, valued. The reason for that is obvious. The shire taxation is limited in extent. In New South Wales it is based upon the unimproved value, and the limit of the tax is 2d. in the£1. There is, therefore, a tendency, it seems to me, to place a high valuation on the land. No reasonable ratepayer would object to the valuation being to the uttermost farthing for municipal and shire purposes, because he knows that if the valuation of the land comes down to any extent, there must be a corresponding increase in the rates. In these circumstances, there is no incentive to be constantly appealing against the undervaluations and overvaluations on the one side or the other, as long as rough justice is done. Many of the lands within the jurisdiction of shires to-day are, on the whole, I believe, overvalued rather than undervalued. 4136 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The position is the reverse. 4136 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Surely the honorable member does not mean that. 4136 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Let me give an illustration. I have a small block of land, the unimproved value of which is fixed today at £30 per acre. I believe that that is an over-estimate, but I do not complain, for I think the tax, based as it is on the unimproved value, is fair and very low. Half-a-mile away, and fronting the same main road, there is land valued at £100 per acre. It is not, in my judgment, worth half that amount, yet the shire taxation is being paid upon it on that basis. Here we have already at hand a basis of assessment for the Federal Government. They have no independent machinery, and, in all probability, the shire valuations will be taken as a basis for the imposition of the Federal tax. If a man paying the shire land tax to-day on a small block of. land, at the rate of£100 per acre, should honestly say, " This land is worth only£50 per acre," and value it for the purposes of this Bill at that rate, he will be liable at once to lose his estate if it is big enough to come under the Federal tax. This provision has nothing to do with honest land taxation. The Bill provides many other penalties for undervaluation. In one part it is declared that if a man undervalues his land he shall be regarded as having committed a fraud until he proves the contrary. There is nothing British about that provision. The onus of proving that he has not committed a fraud is thrown upon the land-owner. 4137 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - That does not apply to this particular clause. 4137 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK -No, it is in addition to the penalty with which we are now dealing.I suggest to the Attorney-General that, by allowing the penalties already in the Bill to remain, and not pressing for this, he will stand as good a chance of having the lands of Australia fairly valued, and of securing a full measure of taxation out of them, as he will do if this clause be passed as he proposes. I fail to see the object of this provision, unless it is designed as the beginning of a large scheme of land nationalization. Does the Attorney-General imagine that a man would submit to a penalty of, say,£500 and the payment of treble taxation, and yet continue to wink at the law? 4137 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr Chanter - The honorable member has not had much experience of landowners, or he would know how wilful undervaluation is carried on. 4137 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If the Government have reason to suspect, after the Act has been in operation for a time, that the penalties are insufficient, they can ask for further powers. Why should they seek to clothe themselves with these autocratic powers at the initiation of this scheme? Why assume that every land-owner is going to undervalue his land ? I have pointed out reasons why I believe that land is overvalued for shire purposes. 4137 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - In Victoria land is very much undervalued for municipal purposes. 4137 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That is merely the honorable member's statement against that of a vast army of expert men, who have spent most of their lives in valuing land, and whose opinions count for infinitely more than do his or mine. The Minister has plenty of penal machinery elsewhere in the Bill, and I hope he will allow the matter of wilful fraud to be absolutely proved against a man before proceeding to the extreme step of confiscating his property. 4137 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We do not confiscate it. 4137 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Government take it from him, at any rate. What is the difference? I hope the honorable member will not proceed to that extreme in this Bill. Give the Act a chance, and if it does not work out well, the honorable member can always come again to Parliament and get further penalties. My own opinion is that he has plenty in the Bill. 4137 KXO Maranoa 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE .- I should like to put one aspect of the matter before the Attorney-General. I am of the opinion of several members of the Opposition, that the clause is very drastic indeed, and will mean endless litigation on the part both of property owners and the Commonwealth. As practical men, we do not want to rush any individual into the Courts and subject him to expensive litigation, simply because he is a land-holder. I do not think any honorable member on this side wishes that. If there are any who do wish it, they are very few. I should like to show the Minister how a man could undervalue his estate, and at the same time not do it wilfully. In fact, at the time of making the return it would be the real value. In the Western Riverina and western portions of New South Wales and Queensland, there are times when the land is practically valueless for pastoral purposes. We have seen that happen many times. I know one man who went to Western Queensland with £70,000, and left Barcaldine railway station with nothing but his swag, so that he did not make much money by taking up land. Suppose the owner of a property had a successful year this year, and land in that district was at a good price; that then a succession of droughts began, and every year the land depreciated in value. Suppose, then, that when the owner put in his assessment at the end of the financial year, a good spring suddenly followed, and the value of the land rose by, say, 100 per cent. Would the Minister say that that man had wilfully misrepresented the case to the Commissioner, and would he then step in and take the land from him at that price? 4137 JOK 0 0 BEARD, Henry Mr Beard -No. 4137 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - He could do so, under this clause. 4137 JOK 0 0 BEARD, Henry Mr Beard - He could ; but he would not. 4137 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - There are two words - "shall" and "may" - to the use of which, in Acts of Parliament, I take great exception. The Attorney-General, I know, desires to do what is just. He wants to rope in those who are dishonest ; and if he kept the clause as it stood originally in the Bill, I think every honorable member would be more satisfied. It is not mv desire to punish an honest man ; but I think we all desire to punish the dishonest man. The same arguments as have been used to-day were used when the clause in the Customs Act, allowing the Crown to take goods at their invoice price, plus 10 per cent., was being considered. We were told that the Government were becoming trading merchants, and would do this, that, and the other. I think that there have been only three cases of action taken under that section of the Customs Act. I appeal to the Attorney-General to do as the honorable member for Parramatta suggests. If we find that the clauses are not drastic enough, it will be within the province of the Government and Parliament to make them more drastic. 4138 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I hope that the Committee will come to a division on the question, which has been argued at great length. I suggested some amendments in the clause, entirely with the view of meeting objections that had been outlined at an earlier stage; but I find that my attempt at amendment is treated with the utmost disdain and scorn. I am now told that I have made the thing infinitely worse than before, which is, of course, most unsatisfactory for me, and, apparently, worse for the Committee. The honorable member for Maranoa spoke about the position of persons with pastoral holdings which are subject to a depreciation of value owing to droughts. A man always knows what the value of his land is. If his land is worth very little, he will put down a very small amount in his return. If it is worth a lot, he will put that down'. After the drought of 1893 had gone over this country, the honorable member knew to within a little what his own property was worth. It may have been worth only one-fifth of what it was before the drought came; but, whatever it was, he knew it. Let him, therefore, put that down in the assessment paper. 4138 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - It is not the ground that is of value to the pastoralist ; it is the grass and water. That is the only asset he has. 4138 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - That argument applies to all classes of land. The value of land used for agricultural or pastoral purposes depends entirely on the extent to which it meets those purposes. If you cannot get any grass on land on which you are running sheep, you have to feed them or drive them off. The question is, what is. the position of the owner of land in those circumstances? If a man has a piece of land, and a drought comes, and he has no grass, the capital value of the land is depreciated ; but he knows it, and nobody knows it better than he does. He can say, " My land is not worth one-tenth of what it was five years ago." There may be plenty of cases where that applies. We are only asking the owner to say what his land is worth. I know many cases where, during drought 5'ears, if a man could have got 10 per cent, above his own valuation, he would have been the happiest man in creation, and glad of the chance to unload his estate. I have never yet known a case where a big squatter or pastoral owner was not influenced by one of two things. Either he had confidence that the present was a mere passing phase, and that good times would come again, or he had abandoned all hope and was seeking to unload. If he is seeking to unload, this is the best chance he has; because he has only to put his own valuation on the land, and we will give him 10 per cent, more for it. The honorable member for Maranoa has stated that we desire to do justice. I hope we all have that desire, however our views may differ as to the means. There is, I know, a strong desire on the part of honorable members on this side to do justice; and one of the most effective refutations of the ridiculous statements that are made from time to time in the press, and by some members on the other side, that those on this side come here with their minds made up, and have no opinions of their own, is to be found in the fact that criticism of amendments put forward by the Government comes quite as frequently from this side as from that. I am prepared to strike out the word " wilfully," from subparagraph ii., of paragraph c, and then to retain the sub-paragraph. That will, I think, meet most of the objections urged against the clause, .and is going as far as, and perhaps a little further than, I ought to go. I have no other desire than to protect the revenue, and compel people to realize that it is a very serious thing to undervalue their land without some good cause. If that amendment will meet the wishes of the Committee, I am prepared to consider it. If the honorable member for Angas will withdraw his amendment, I shall move my prior amendments, and then move to amend sub-paragraph ii., as I stated. 4138 K99 Lang FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - - I d° not see that the proposal made by the Attorney-General will make any great difference. The Attorney-General has described the amendment of the honorable member for Angas as practically a " disembowelment " of the Bill. 4139 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I did not say that at all ! 4139 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - I think "disembowelment" was the word used. 4139 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It does not follow that "disembowelment" attached to the amendment ; I said there were some people who wished to disembowel the whole measure. 4139 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - I understood the application of the term to be to the amendment; but, at any fate, if the clause is passed without that amendment, it will practically amount to a " metaphorical disembowelment " of the landowner. The honorable member for Maranoa has told us that the Attorney-General only desires to "rope in" those who are dishonest; and we give the Attorney-General credit for that desire. But that is exactly what is asked by honorable members on this side, who support the amendment of the honorable member for Angas. 4139 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Then the suggested amendment of the Attorney-General ought to suit honorable members opposite! 4139 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - The suggested amendment does not meet the case so effectually as that proposed by the honorable member for Angas. Honorable members have expressed a desire not to unduly penalize or harshly deal with any persons under this Bill; and the suggestion that this is a step in the direction of land nationalization has also been mildly repudiated. But if we are to accept all those statements as sincere, our obvious duty is to support the amendment of the honorable member for Angas, which aims only at justice being preserved. It has been pointed out that the clause as it stands, or even as amended in the way suggested by the Attorney-General, will still have the effect of unduly penalizing many landowners who, in perfect good faith, may send in a return undervaluing his land to the extent of even more than 25 per cent. Under the clause as we have it, such landowners are not only liable to have their land compulsorily purchased, but are subject to further drastic penalties under another portion of the Bill. Under the circumstances, we ought to seriously consider the advisability of accepting the amendment of the honorable member for Angas, which makes the clause apply only to those persons who wilfully undervalue their land for the purpose of evading taxation. Surely the mere fact that a person may innocently make an undervaluation should not subject him to the drastic penalties provided? 4139 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn - Does the honorable member think that evasion of the taxation will not be wilful? 4139 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Not necessarily so in all cases, but if the undervaluation is for the purpose of evading taxation, it is dishonest. 4139 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn - That is all we mean. Mr.W. ELLIOT JOHNSON. - And that is what the amendment provides for. 4139 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn - So does the clause. 4139 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The only difference is that the onus of proof is changed. 4139 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - The amendment of the honorable member for Angas is better. Evidence should be given to show deliberate intention on the part of a land-owner to undervalue his land for the purpose of evading taxation; and, if that is the desire of the Attorney-General and other honorable members opposite, I call their attention to the fact that ft is what the amendment of the honorable member for Angas secures. Assuming that we have the right to impose land taxation, I am just as eager as honorable members opposite to see that there is no intentional evasion; but I am also anxious that no injustice shall be done to a person who innocently happens to make a mistake. 4139 KXK Gwydir 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER .- I am at a loss to know why honorable members opposite do not accept the suggestion of the Attorney-General. That honorable gentleman has made a concession which, personally, I do not favour, but, inasmuch as honorable members opposite have urged that the proposed conditions are not strictly equitable, he is driven to meet them; and, when he does so, they continue to urge that the amendment of the honorable member for Angas should be adopted. 4139 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I have not said a word myself yet. 4139 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I fail to see the consistency of honorable members opposite. The honorable member for Parramatta raved as usual about the injustice perpetrated on the land-owner, but the records will show that honorable members on this side who have had to deal with land-owners and their interest have always acted justly. It is an insult to infer that we are here for the purpose of persecuting men who are on the land; we are here in order to pass an equitable and effective measure of land taxation. If honorable members opposite had their own way, this land taxation would not be effective - just as it failed in New Zealand, and there required amendment on the lines suggested by the Attorney-General. The honorable member for Maranoa has talked about the injustice heaped on the man in the western districts of Queensland j but he must know that in the north-west of New South Wales, and the portion of Queensland to which he referred, the lands are under leasehold, and will not come within the operation of the Bill. Even assuming that there are some lessees who have the right of purchase, and who may come under the Bill, what is the value of their land in drought-stricken areas? Does the honorable member mean to tell me that values are going up and down according to how the rain falls? 4140 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - The Attorney-General told us so, anyhow ! 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I do not care what the Attorney-General or anybody else said ! 4140 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Hear, hear ! The honorable member is a great authority ! 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Anyhow, I claim to be as great an authority as the honorable member is. Pastoral land is assessed, not on the annual producing power, but on the average producing power ; all the disabilities are taken into consideration. In the shire assessments such a liberal allowance is made for the prevailing conditions that the difference between the assessed value and the actual value in the market is very striking. 4140 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Does the honorable member mean leasehold land ? 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I mean either leasehold or freehold. 4140 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The shires are obliged to make a statutory valuation of the leasehold land. 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I do not care what the shires are "obliged" to make - I tell the honorable member the valuation they do make. 4140 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - That valuation is twenty times the annual rental. 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - In the district I represent I have seen land assessed by the shire councils at £2 per acre, and I have seen that land subdivided and sold at auction, the lowest block at £4 10s., and the highest at £9. That represents the prevailing conditions in regard to shire- assessment throughout the north-western portion of New South Wales, and there is no justification for the statement of the honorable member for Parramatta that over-assessment is the common rule. 4140 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The honorable member has quoted only one case. 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Surely the honorable member does not desire me to occupy time by quoting a whole list of cases. Any ordinary, sensible man would take a concrete case as representing the conditions. 4140 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - An ordinary, sensible man would do just the contrary ! 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Men like the honorable member for Parramatta would make this Bill, absolutely ineffective if they could. 4140 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Abuse, as usual ! 4140 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The honorable member would so frame this measure as to leave loopholes big enough for a motor car to drive through. I warn the Attorney-General that the party behind the Government has a mandate from the people to impose a land tax which shall effectively apply to those who should be called on to pay it, and that it is our duty to see that Ministers do not in a weak moment yield to the wiles of the Opposition, and its appeals for sympathy for the man on the land. The honorable member for Parramatta and others have referred to the penalties in another part of the Bill as if they were sufficient, although those honorable members know that those penalties do not cover the set of conditions provided for by the clause. The object of the clause is to prevent men from wilfully undervaluing their land, the Government being permitted, where an owner has sought in this way to evade legitimate taxation, to acquire his property for the good of the people. That is a fair provision. In New South Wales to-day, when land is resumed by the Government, and a Board of Arbitration is appointed to determine its value, a mass of interested evidence is submitted, with a view to increasing the price which the Government has to pay. Men are always ready to inflate values when the Government wishes to buy, and to undervalue when the Government intends to tax. Our duty is to see that fair taxation is paid, and to prevent the evasion of just responsibilities. No doubt, honorable members opposite are ready to insert in the Bill provisions which would render it useless, and would do harm to the party responsible for it. I am with the Attorney-General in regard to the striking out of the word " wilfully " in sub-paragraph ii. of paragraph c, though after what has taken place this afternoon, I shall watch carefully the proposals of the Opposition. 4141 KDD North Sydney LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS . - According to the honorable member for Gwydir, land should be valued, not on the basis of its production in the year of valuation, but on its average productivity ; whereas, according to the honorable member for Maranoa, a man valuing after a series of droughts might make his valuation too low, and after a series of good seasons might make it too high. The Attorney-General seems to think that if land had decreased in value by the time that the valuation was called for, the owner would be justified in writing down the value, and that the Government would accept such a valuation. These differences of opinion show the difficulty of determining the unimproved value of land. The Attorney-General defended the proposal before the Committee by referring to the section in the Customs Act under which, if an importer has wilfully and grossly undervalued goods liable to ad valorem duty, the Government may take them at an advance of 10 per cent, on the valuation; but it must be remembered that, while it is possible for an honest importer to prove his bona fides and the value of the goods, it is never possible to prove the unimproved value of land, there being always land, even in suburban areas, whose value it is very difficult to get at. To show that valuations may honestly vary beyond the 25 per cent, margin provided for, let me instance my own experience. Within recent years I have bought land in three of the suburbs of Sydney. Within the Kurringai Chase shire, I have 100 acres which is notoriously overvalued, notwithstanding the statement of the honorable member for Gwydir that shire councils invariably undervalue. The New South Wales Act restricts shire councils to a rate of 2d. in the £1 on the unimproved value of land within their boundaries; but as that did not give a sufficient revenue in the Kurringai Chase shire, values there were deliberately inflated, with the consent of the taxpayers of the shire. Were I to value my land there for the purposes of this Bill, I should fix a much lower value than that on which the shire levied its rates. I have other land at Bondi, in the Waverley municipality, which I bought for ^720, and which within two months afterwards the council valued at over £1,000. 4141 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Was it bought at a forced sale lc ? 4141 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - No; the holding in question consists of five or six allotments bought at auction. Were I valuing the land for the purposes of the Bill, I should declare the valuation to be ,£720, which is what I paid for it ; but if the Government accepted the municipal valuation, which is more than 25 per cent, higher, my land would be liable to forfeiture, although my valuation was given in perfect good faith. 4141 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr Chanter - Would not the Court take that into consideration? 4141 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - The clause does not provide for that being done. I have another block of land on the Narrabeen Lagoon, which I purchased for 17s. 6d. a foot, and for which I was offered £2 a foot immediately afterwards. Were I to value that land for the purposes of the tax at the price which I gave for it, the valuation would, no doubt, be accepted, but I should be giving an undervaluation. We are making a mistake in asking the owners of land to value it when, if we are to have a national system of land taxation, we should have a national system of land valuation. 4141 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - How long would it be, then, before the tax could be levied ? 4141 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - It could not be levied before the 30th June next. But we might get an honest assessment which would serve as the basis of future State or municipal assessments. According to the honorable member for Gwydir, some of the shire councils and municipalities undervalue. That is true of Tasmania, and to a large extent of Victoria, but it is notoriously untrue of New South Wales, where many of the municipalities have very much overvalued their lands. 4141 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The shire councils have not overvalued. 4141 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - We are dealing with the whole of the lands of Australia. Provisions like those in the clause will do gross injustice. The work of valuation should not fall on the landowners. The Government should make an independent valuation, and preserve to the owners the right of appeal. The honorable member for Gwydir is quite wrong in thinking that that would necessarily mean a three years' postponement. 4141 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member not to discuss the question of assessments. 4142 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member is only wasting time. He is simply " spinning " out the debate until the adjournment for dinner. 4142 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - I am no more wasting time than the Attorney-General is. I am dealing with the question on its merits. 4142 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member has been dealing with a matter that has no relation to the question before the Chair. 4142 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - The honorable gentleman is no judge of the question of relevancy. I am endeavouring to show that the Attorney-General's proposed amendment will act with great injustice on many people, and I am suggesting an alternative. The Attorney-General's desire is to push this clause through Committee, within three minutes of the adjournment for dinner. I do not care whether he does or does not. For my part, he could have had the whole Bill a fortnight ago, for it will do the Government no good. The proposed alteration will not improve the working of the Bill, but I leave it to the Government to do what they can with it. 4142 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- I am prepared to accept as an improvement upon the original proposals of the Attorney-General, the proposition now made by him. I do not think that the omission of the word " wilfully " will make any difference, but if the honorable gentleman thinks it will, I have no objection to its being left out. When we come to clause 65, we may endeavour to shift the burden of proof from the owner to the Government. Meantime, will the Attorney-General consider whether it would not be better to strike out that clause? The question of resumption where forfeiture will result is not to be raised by an undervaluation of less than 25 per cent. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendments (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to- That after the word " land," line 5, the words "to the extent of 25 per centum or more" be inserted. That after the word " land," line 19, the words " to the extent of 25 per centum or more," be inserted. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the word "wilfully," line 21, be left out. Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) peal to the Attorney-General to forego this provision altogether? 4142 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I cannot agree to do that. 4142 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It seems to me to be an excrescence on the Bill, and altogether foreign to an ordinary taxation measure. I do not know why it has been inserted. Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8p.m. Amendment agreed to. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the following words be added to paragraph e - " together with the amount of 10 per centum upon that improved value, by way of an allowance for compulsory dispossession." 4142 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- I am not sure that I understand the effect of this amendment. I think it would be better if the words "10 per centum " were not qualified by the words, " by way of an allowance for compulsory dispossession," because, in the next paragraph, we to a great extent incorporate in this clause, the provisions of the Lands Acquisition Act of 1906. If I am not mistaken, there are in that Act provisions for compensation for the compulsory taking of land, so that the effect of these words would be to make the addition of 10 per cent cover all allowances for compulsory acquisition. We may, therefore, be cutting down to some extent the effect of the incorporation of the Lands Acquisition Act. 4142 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr Chanter - Is not 10 per cent. sufficient ? 4142 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I think that there ought to be an addition without any remission of compensation. This amount of 10 per cent. should simply be a margin given by the Commissioner to cover the possibility of his making an error of valuation. It is quite a different thing to say that this 10 per cent. is to be a sort of commutation of the amount to which a man would be entitled under the Lands Acquisition Act of 1906. 4142 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I see the honorable member's point and will look into it. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 45 to 47 agreed to. Clause 48 (Substituted Service). 4142 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - There is a misunderstanding, Mr. Chairman. We understood that we were proceeding to a division on clause 44. 4143 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The Chairman put the question that the call for a division be withdrawn, and it was agreed to. 4143 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - And the honorable member for Angas, who made the call, withdrew it. Clause agreed to. Clause 49 - The following provisions shall apply in any case where, whether intentionally or not, a taxpayer escapes full taxation in his lifetime by reason of not having duly made full and complete returns : - (a)The Commissioner shall have the same powers and remedies against the executors and administrators of the taxpayer as he would have had against the taxpayer in his lifetime. The assessment shall be at the rates payable in respect of the years for which the tax ought to have been paid, and the amount payable shall be treble the amount of the difference between the tax so assessed and the amount actually paid by the taxpayer, and shall be a first charge on all the taxpayer's estate. 4143 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I submit that a division ought to have been taken on clause 44. 4143 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - That point of order cannot be taken on clause 49. 4143 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We are not properly dealing with clause 49. The question, " That clause 44 as amended be agreed to," was put to the Committee, and those voting with the " noes " took their places on this side of the chamber. There was no opportunity of hearing what you were saying. Every honorable member sitting on this side fully believed that we were proceeding to a division on clause 44, and it would be a denial of justice to the Opposition to allow this clause by misadventure to be passed without a division.I venture to say that no one on this side was aware that you had passed from clause 44 to other clauses. Some one has said that the call for a division was withdrawn. I could understand an honorable member, who had moved an amendment, withdrawing a call for a division upon it; but we were dealing with a clause in respect of which every honorable member had an interest and a right to demand a division. The great bulk of us were totally unaware of what was being done by you. We shall suffer a denial of justice unless you enable us, sir, to have our votes recorded on a clause on which we desired to divide. 4143 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - On the point of order, I would like to explain that before we adjourned for dinner, it was agreed that we should have a division on clause 44. When the question was put, a few minutes ago, " That the clause as amended be agreed to," several honorable members of the Opposition cried, "Divide." I was amongst the number. I wished to go to a division, but at least five or six honorable members on this side said that they did not. The result was that, although neither I nor any one else that I know of asked that the call for a division should be withdrawn, the Chairman himself, from what was said, thought that there was a withdrawal of the call. I do not think the question was properly put. 4143 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I put it. 4143 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - The question might have been put again, and then the voices would have been taken one way or the other, but there was some confusion as to what really occurred after that point. In justice to the Chairman as well as to members on the other side, I must say that at least five members particularly asked the honorable member for Darling Downs and myself not to take a division on the question, although it had been arranged before the tea hour that there was to be a division. 4143 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Upon the Chairman putting the question " that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill," those on this side cried "Aye," and the honorable member for Darling Downs and the honorable member for Angas cried " No," whereupon the Chairman directed that a division should be taken. The bells were rung, the honorable member for Balaclava and others came in, and went over near where the honorable member for Angas was sitting. I think the honorable member for Parramatta was also there or thereabouts. I said, " I have amended the clause to suit you, and now you call for a division." I was addressing my remarks more particularly to the honorable member for Balaclava across the table, and he said " No division," or words to that effect. The Chairman then said, " Is it the pleasure of the Committee that the call for a division be withdrawn?" or words, to that effect. The Chairman understood, and I understood, that it was withdrawn, and I am sure honorable members on this side were under the impression that there was to be no division. It did not matter to this side whether a division was taken or not, but when, through some blunder or misunderstanding on the other side, honorable members sitting there do not get what they want, it is of no use for them to blame the Government or the Chairman. In the circumstances, no further time ought to be lost. Honorable members on the other side have made their protest, and the position is clear. 4144 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I came into the chamber to vote, and was sitting here waiting for the vote to be taken. When I asked why it was not being taken, I was told that the Attorney-General had called the division off, and I could not understand that. The Chairman evidently put the matter while the confusion was on. 4144 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - No blame attaches to any one. 4144 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - No; except that it is the invariable practice in Parliament, where there has been a mistake, to rectify the matter. 4144 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - When the clause as amended was put, there were voices on both sides, and I said, " The Committee will now divide." The glass was turned up, and in a little while a discussion took place in this corner, and I clearly heard the remark " No division." I then said, in a clear voice, "Is it the pleasure of the Committee that the call for a division be withdrawn?" and there was no objection to that. I then proceeded with the next clause. 4144 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - We did not hear you. 4144 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I cannot go backnow. 4144 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I watched the whole affair, and I think the Attorney-General has given a very correct statement of what took place, but a large number of members on this side, in consequence of the noise in the chamber, did not know what you were doing. They have been deprived of their right to a division which they wished to insist upon, and which they would have had if you, Mr. Chairman, had known their feelings. 4144 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr Chanter - I submit that, under the Standing Orders, it is impossible to go back. Those sitting on this side of the House, Mr. Chairman, distinctly recollect hearing those on the other side of the House, who had called for a division, withdraw that call. We also clearly heard the Chairman ask whether it was the pleasure of the Committee that the call should be withdrawn, and it was withdrawn. During that time, or immediately afterwards, a number of honor able members who- sit on the other side of the House came in. They were not in the chamber when the call 'was withdrawn. Three clauses have been passed since then, and, in the circumstances, it is impossible to go back. 4144 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - I wish to make a personal explanation, as I may be primarily responsible for the difficulty that has arisen. When the last amendment was proposed by the Attorney-General some honorable members called out " No," and I went up to the honorable member foi Angas and the honorable member for Darling Downs, and suggested that there should not be a division on it. I understood that the division was being called foi on an amendment in paragraph e of clause 44, and I called out " No division." I did not know that you had directed a division to be taken on the clause itself. I thought it was on the amendment. I, therefore, take any responsibility there is for any mistake that has happened ; but it would be only reasonable to allow those who wished to do so an opportunity of voting against the clause. 4144 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It ought to meet the wish of the Committee if honorable members will agree to divide on the clause without discussion, when it is reached in its turn on the recommittal of the Bill. I am prepared to arrange for that. 4144 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - I wish to make a personal explanation. I did not object to the withdrawal of the division on clause 44, hut I did not hear you put the question that it should be withdrawn, nor, on account of the noise, did I hear you putting the subsequent clauses. I had a small amendment to move on clause 46, but have had no opportunity of proposing it. There seems to have been a misunderstanding for which nobody is to blame. It was caused by the disorder in the Committee. We ought to have some opportunity of testing the whole of the clauses that have since been put. I should be very pleased if the Attorney-General would agree to recommit clause 46. His offer to recommit clause 44 will not do what I require, as that matter has been threshed out, and I did not care very much whether we divided on it or not, as I knew we should lose on a division. 4144 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I said that I would take a vote on clause 44 on recommittal, if it were agreed that there should be no discussion. I shall do the same with clause 46, if that will suit the honorable member. 4145 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - I ask for that to be done. 4145 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I desire to raise a question of privilege. These matters are not for the Attorney-General alone to decide, but involve the question of order in the Committee. The clauses have been put through by you, Mr. Chairman, when there has been such disorder in the Committee as prevented honorable members from hearing what was going on. The disorder is nothing unusual, as it occurs during every division, and I submit that the proper thing to do is to secure order before business is dealt with. It is not right to have these matters rushed through, when no one knows what is going on. 4145 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Whose fault is it? 4145 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I do not want to say whose fault it is ; but I respectfully submit that the Chairman should see that order is restored before he puts a clause. It has been the invariable rule of Parliament that, when the Chairman's attention has been called to anything of this kind, he should put the question over again. That is a simple way out. 4145 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I rise to order. There was so much noise and confusion that I was shocked when it was ascertained that the division was not being proceeded with on clause 44, and that the subsequent clauses had been actually put without my hearing them, or realizing what was being done. They were all put while the discussion was going on as to whether there should or should not be a division on clause 44. I strongly object to such a drastic clause, on which there was so much criticism and difference of opinion, being allowed to go through without a division simply because some one, thinking the division was on an amendment, called " No division." Every one of us most strongly objects to clause 44. 4145 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member will have an opportunity to vote against it. 4145 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - But it seems to me that there ought to be an opportunity now. In hundreds of cases of error or misunderstanding the question has been put again ; and I cannot understand the Government not assisting in placing every member in his proper position for or against the clause. I feel that I have not recorded my opinion against a provision which I regard as one of the most unconstitutional and improper in the whole Bill. 4145 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - Do I understand that the Attorney-General is going to allow an opportunity for the discussion of clause 46? It is not worth my while to simply vote on the clause, because I desire to move an amendment. I have been told that the only promise given is that we shall have an opportunity to vote. 4145 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member may move his amendment, provided there is no discussion. 4145 KDD LP 0 0 EDWARDS, George Mr G B EDWARDS - Will the Attorney-General promise to recommit the clause ? Mr. HUGHES (West Sydney- Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General [8.28J. - I have said so. I move - That after the word " taxpayer," where first occurring in paragraph a, the words " in respect of the estate of the taxpayer " be inserted. This amendment is to limit the scope of the Commissioner's powers in cases where the estate is being administered by administrators or an executor, as the case may be. Amendment agreed to. 4145 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- The amendment just passed was clearly necessary, because we did not in the beginning declare that trustees are acting in their representative capacity, and, as in every other taxation measure, that they could not be liable beyond the value of the estate. We have now to get rid of another anomaly. Under this clause, if a mistake has been .made by a person deceased, whether intentionally or not, the executors are to be mulct in treble the amount of the tax ; and that is very unfair. A dead person cannot, of course, be called as a witness; and yet, for an act which may not have been wilful, his executors are punished as though it had been wilful. By a subsequent clause, if a man wilfully evades taxation there is the penalty of treble the amount; and that is very fair, because the taxpayer is alive to reply to the charge. ,But such a penalty is not fair in the case of executors, seeing that the only person who could explain that an omission was not wilful cannot give evidence. I suggest that the words " shall be treble the amount of the difference between the tax so assessed and the amount actually paid by the taxpayer and " be struck out. This simply means that' in the case of evasion during the lifetime of the taxpayer, his executors shall be liable lo the full extent of the tax had the evasion not taken place. As a matter of fact, I do not believe that any harm would be done if the clause were altogether omitted, first because there is always a remedy against the estate, and, secondly, the remedy inures against the executors and administrators. There is no need for the clause except to accomplish something that is bad, namely, the apparent desire of the draftsman to impose a fine of treble the amount of the tax. 4146 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The suggestion of the honorable member creates a sensible distinction between the estate of a deceased person and the estate of a living one. We cannot convict a dead man of having wilfully done anything; and, therefore, the words at the head of the clause, "whether intentionally or not," seem very appropriate to the circumstances. The honorable member says that the estate ought not to be taxed to treble the amount of the difference, which is one of the penalties set forth in clause 65. If the honorable member will allow me to consider the matter and see how far we can safely go, I shall do so in the light of his remarks. 4146 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I accept that assurance. 4146 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - Paragraph d provides that no lapse of time shall prevent the operation of the clause. It will be impossible for trustees to wind up estates in land unless there is some means of obtaining a certificate from the Commissioner that he has no claim. If the trustees distribute an estate with the chance of a charge of this kind, they will be liable either to the Crown or to the beneficiaries. There certainly ought to be limit of time of, say, one or two years. Under the State Act of Victoria, trustees, before they proceed to distribute, must advertise in certain newspapers and in the Government Gazette that on and after a certain date they are going to do so; and in this clause there is no provision to protect them in any way. Under the circumstances, I do not know how trustees are to close an estate in land, because, it may be, ten years afterwards the question could arise whether in any preceding year the estate had been undervalued. 4146 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Is the honorable member speaking of the liability of the trustees, or of the liability of persons who buy the trust estate? 4146 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - If this is a; charge on the land, then the people who buy are in a difficulty; but what I am pointing out is that the trustees, unless they have a certificate, will not be able to distribute an estate, seeing that before doing so they have to satisfy all claims. A charge should only be on the land until it is parted with, because a purchaser will have to ask if there is any charge on it, and no trustee can prove that there has not been undervaluation, and great difficulty will thereby be caused in conveyancing. Unless some alteration is made in the clause, there will be much complication without any special good resulting. The Commissioner should be able to determine within twelve months whether land has been properly valued. 4146 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - By way of reply to the honorable member for Balaclava, let me say that, so far as a trustee is concerned, once an estate has been distributed, his liability ceases. As for those who acquire trust estates, it is proposed to amend clause 52 in a way which will meet their case. -The clause contains the proviso that no charge for land tax shall be of effect as against a bond fide purchaser for value who, at the time of purchase made due inquiry, but had no notice of the liability. I propose to amend the clause by adding a further proviso to the effect that persons shall be deemed to have made due inquiry who have made inquiry of the Commissioner. The man who buys bond fide and for value land which has formed part of a trust estate, or any other land, will not, if he has made due inquiry, that is, inquiry of the Commissioner as prescribed, be liable for the tax. The tax is a charge in rem, and not in personam, and therefore a trustee's liability will be extinguished once he has got rid of the trust estate. 4146 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - If a man sells land, and after his death it is discovered that he evaded taxation in regard to it, will the estate in the hands of his executors, supposing it is wholly personalty, be liable? 4146 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - If the honorable member will look at clauses 44 to 49 he will see that the tax is a debt, and recoverable as such. 4146 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Is the Attorney-General satisfied that he has power, in a measure of this kind, to create a charge on the personal estate left by a man who evaded payment of taxation in respect of land which he afterwards sold? 4147 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I am satisfied that we have the right to recover the money owing to us in respect of the tax. 4147 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member for Balaclava has shown that the clause may create serious difficulty in regard to trust estates, because there is no limitation against recovery. I hope that the Attorney-General will look into the matter. If he is satisfied that, when a trust estate has been distributed, the trustee, being functus officio, has no further liability, that meets one objection raised. 4147 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - A trustee's personal liability is extinguished with the distribution of the trust estate. 4147 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - I am pleased that the Attorney-General intends to move an amendment for the protection of bona fide purchasers for value. I would point out, however, that if the proceeds of an estate are in the hands of trustees, they will be unable to part with them until they get a certificate from the Commissioner that they have no liability in respect of the tax, and he is not bound to give such a certificate. If the Attorney-General would agree to an amendment similar to that proposed by the honorable member for Gippsland, enabling trustees to compel the Commissioner to give a certificate, that would probably meet the case. After the distribution of an estate creditors ran file a suit in equity and follow the assets into the hands of the persons to whom they have been distributed, and if trustees in an estate in which three of the beneficiaries lived in Australia, and the remaining five abroad, distributed the estate, the portions of the Australian beneficiaries could be taxed, but those of the beneficiaries living abroad could not be, which would be unfair. Either there should be a limit of time, or the Commissioner should be compelled to give a certificate. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 50 - No statute of limitations at any time in force shall bar or affect any action or remedy for recovery of land tax. 4147 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - I should like the Attorney-General to provide some limitation, such as is fixed in regard to legal rights generally. After the lapse of years it will be very difficult to obtain evidence as to the unimproved value of land. 4147 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - The tax being a charge on the land, would there not be a limitation of twelve or fifteen years? 4147 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The Attorney-General might take into consideration the rules in regard to real estate, with a view to determining whether it is advisable not to have a limitation. 4147 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I shall look into the matter. Clause agreed to. Clause 51 (Remedy against other persons where taxpayer makes default). 4147 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney -General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I move - That the following words be added to the clause : - " Provided that the responsibility of the lessee or occupier under this section shall only be to the extent of any rent or payments due by him to the taxpayer at the time of demand made or action brought by the Commissioner, or from time to time accruing due thereafter." This proviso is of a far-reaching character, and will have the effect of limiting the liability of the lessee or occupier to the amount of rent due or payable by him to the taxpayer. 4147 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN . - I had made a note of an. amendment to the same effect, which I intended to move; and I welcome the ample way in which the Attorney-General has dealt with this matter. There is an addition which the Attorney-General might consider. Under the clause as it stands, there is no provision for notice to the lessee that there are arrears of taxation. The clause provides that where a taxpayer makes default, there shall be a remedy against the lessee to the extent of any money payable by him to the taxpayer that may still be in his hands. He might part with those moneys ; but I think that the liability would still remain. It is only fair that he should get notice from the Commissioner that his landlord - the taxpayer - has not paid the tax. There is a provision to that effect, if I remember rightly, in the South Australian Act; and I suggest that after the word "occupier," the words " one mouth's personal notice by the Commissioner," be inserted. 4147 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Very well. I will look into the matter. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 52 - (1.) Land tax shall until payment be a first charge upon the land taxed in priority over all other encumbrances whatever, and notwithstanding any disposition of the land it shall continue to be liable in the hands of any purchaser or holder for the payment of the tax so long as it remains unpaid : Provided that no such charge shall be of effect as against a bond fide purchaser for value who at the time of purchase made clue inquiry but had no notice of the liability. (2.) Where the Commissioner thinks it advisable to register the charge, he may lodge with the Registrar-General or Registrar of Titles or other proper officer of the State or part of the Commonwealth in which the land is situated a certificate under his hand describing the land charged, and stating that there are arrears of land tax payable in respect thereof ; and the Registrar or other proper officer shall register it in the register and as nearly as may be in the manner in which dealings with land are registered, and shall deal with and give effect to the certificate as if it were an instrument of charge or incumbrance duly executed under the laws in force in that State or part of the Commonwealth. 4148 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister, and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - This clause declares that the tax is to be a first charge upon the land taxed ; that it is to have priority over all other encumbrances, and that, notwithstanding any disposition of the land, it shall continue to be liable, in the hands of any purchaser, for the payment of the tax, so long as that tax remains unpaid. The proviso exempts a bond fide purchaser for value who, at the time of purchase, makes due inquiry, but has no notice of liability. That, in substance, repeats the terms of the Real Property Act of New South Wales; but a doubt arises as to what is " due inquiry." The honorable member for Gippsland has given notice of an amendment dealing with the point, and the honorable member for Angas has also done so. I shall ask the Committee to agree to the clause with a further amendment providing - That the following words be added-" Provided further that a purchaser shall be deemed to have made due inquiry who has made inquiry of the Commissioner as prescribed." That, I think,- will meet the case fully; and no bond fide purchaser need be in any doubt as to his liability for unpaid land tax. In substance, I think the amendment will achieve the object at which the honorable member for Gippsland aims ; and I ask the Committee to accept it. 4148 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- 1 have given notice of a prior amendment which, I think, ought to be inserted. I propose to move - That after the word " liability " at the end of the proviso, as printed, the words " or after the expiration of six months from the date on which the tax became due and payable, unless registered under sub-section 2 of this section," be inserted. The effect of my amendment would be that, unless the Commissioner, six months after the tax became payable, and, consequently, a charge upon the land, registered that charge in the State in which the land was situated, the charge would not remain. That would overcome the difficulty pointed out by the honorable member for Balaclava. We are dealing with Federal conditions, and it would be rather hard on a person selling land in a distant State to be obliged to write to the Department at the Seat of Government to ascertain what charges under the Land Tax Assessment Act remained unpaid. We have one of the most expeditious systems of land transfer in the world, and we ought not to impose any obstacle to the prompt transfer of property. I pointed out to an English visitor within the last twenty-four hours that a big transaction in real estate might be settled here, and the transfer given, within two hours, as long as the parties could get to the Registrar's office and ascertain whether there were any registered charges or notices of trusts. If a man happened to be transferring land in Western Australia, and had to write to the Seat of Government to obtain information as to the non-payment of land taxation, there might be a- delay of a month in obtaining a transfer, and I think that such an amendment as I have stated should be accepted. In the next sub-clause it is provided that the Commissioner may register such a charge; and that shows that it is considered that it will be possible for him to make the necessary arrangements to have it registered. I do not feel strongly on this question, but I think that such an amendment as I have indicated would meet the wishes of the Committee. My object is to see that land transactions are not delayed owing to unregistered charges of the Government resting upon property. 4148 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE .- An amendment has just occurred to me in consequence of a suggestion made by the honorable member for Balaclava. It illustrates one of the many difficulties that arise in connexion with legislation of this kind. This clause purports to impose the land tax as a first charge upon the land, in priority to all other encumbrances. In some of the State Acts various charges are made a first charge upon the land. In Victoria, for instance, the expenses incurred by the Government in grants for wire netting are so treated. 4149 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr Agar Wynne - And the State land tax is made a first charge. 4149 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I was not quite sure of that. 4149 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - Rates are also made a charge upon the land. 4149 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - By Act of Parliament they are made a first charge. We shall thus have two competing first charges. Which is to prevail ? The Constitution provides that where a law of the Commonwealth is inconsistent with the law of a State the Commonwealth law shall prevail ; but that has no reference whatever to a proposal of this kind. If the Commonwealth had the power to make laws creating, for instance, first charges upon the lands of the Commonwealth, then, of course, anything that the Commonwealth Parliament declared to be a first charge upon the land would take priority over anything which a State declared to be a first charge upon it. 4149 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Is that not so at the present time? 4149 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - No; we have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to taxation. 4149 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Does not that power apply in this case? 4149 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We have power to make laws with regard to taxation, and necessary incidental powers relating to taxation; but a power to destroy existing charges created by a State is not incidental to the general power of taxation. I suggest to the Attorney-General that, if he wishes to remove one more of the constitutional difficulties with which this Bil bristles, it might be well for him to insert after the words " first charge," the words "subject to any charge created under the legislative authority of a State, and in existence at the time at which the land tax becomes payable," or words to that effect. 4149 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The honorable member suggests that we should subordinate our powers to those of the States? 4149 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member knows that no one is less willing than I am to subordinate our powers to those of the States; but that should not prevent us from endeavouring to define our powers, and to refrain from usurping powers that we do not really possess This would not be a law inconsistent with the law of a State. It would be a law inconsistent with an existing charge created under State law, which the State had .perfect authority to make. If the Attorney-General insists upon making this a first charge upon land, it would be just as well to remove that constitutional difficulty. 4149 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The amendment of -the honorable and learned member for Angas seems to render the whole intention of the clause entirely inoperative, or to hamstring it. It would have the effect of limiting the liability in respect of any land to six months. If the Commissioner did not know it within that time, and he could not register it unless he did know it, the land would escape liability. I do not think the amendment is right, or in any way necessary. The amend- v... _ ment I suggested, that a person should be deemed to have made due inquiry who has made inquiry of the Commissioner as prescribed and been told by him that there is no charge, should be quite sufficient. I come now to the suggestion of the honorable member for Flinders, who seems to doubt either the wisdom or the right of this Parliament to make its land tax a first charge upon land, because there are other charges in various States. No doubt that is perfectly true. This will not destroy those charges. If we make the tax a first charge on the land, it will be a first charge, and all that will happen will be that, if other existing first charges come in conflict with it, they will be postponed. That is eminently proper. Does the honorable member suggest that we should postpone our right until the State right has been satisfied? I cannot agree to that. 4149 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - - I do not think the Attorney-General quite heard my argument. If a first charge has been created on land in favour qf a State, that first charge is the property of the State. If we impose another first charge which takes priority of that, it becomes a first charge, not only on the whole of the land, but on the State's first charge, and therefore a charge upon the property of the State. That manifestly we cannot do. There is no use in our attempting to put in a Statute tilings which we cannot do. We have no more right to impose this tax as a charge upon the State's charge on land than to impose it upon any other portion of the property of a State. 4149 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Does the honorable member doubt the effect of the phraseology of the clause to impose a first charge? 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Surely the Attorney-General understands the position clearly. A piece of land may have as many encumbrances on it as you like. So long as they are made by the owner in favour of private individuals, this Parliament can impose a land tax as a first charge or. the land in priority to any or all of them, but this Parliament has no power to impose a land tax or anything else as a first charge in priority to a legally established first charge to a State, which is the State's property. Take an extreme case. Suppose that the charge in favour of the State was so great as to absorb the value of the land. Then that land in reality belongs to the State, and we are attempting verbally to say that we put a first charge, on that land in priority to the charge of the State, which we have no power to do. . 11 we attempt to make our tax a first charge in priority to all other encumbrances, we ought at least to prevent the clause being altogether unconstitutional by making it subject to that to which it must be subject - namely, the existing property of the State in that land. Mr.Webster. - If the State subsequently decided to take all the value of the property, it would leave the Commonwealth none at all. 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Parliament of a State may, subsequently to the passing of this Act, create a first charge, in the exercise of its legislative authority, for any purpose it likes in favour of itself. If it does so, it exercises the same function as if it took a portion or the whole of that land compulsorily. The land becomes its property. We can, however, make a law saying that, until the State has made any land its property, and has therefore taken it out of the domain that we can touch, we impose a charge upon the land. 4150 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Then, if a State imposed a land tax, and made it a first charge, we could not enforce ours at all ? 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Not to take priority of the State's charge. We could give it priority over any other encumbrance. We cannot make any law to deprive a State of property it has acquired. For instance, large advances have been made from the Treasury of Victoria to municipalities for distribution amongst farmers with a view to buying wire netting. That is a debt due to the Crown, collected by the municipalities, and paid to the Crown, and the law under which the money was advanced made the amount advanced to each farmer a first charge upon his land. That first charge is practically a first mortgage belonging to the State.. It is a part of the property of the State, just as much as are the public buildings of Melbourne, which we cannot tax. If we purport now by a law to make this tax a charge, not only on the man's interest in the land, but on the State of Victoria's interest in the land, we are attempting something that manifestly we cannot do. 4150 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The honorable member's explanation of his amendment has not, I submit with all deference, advanced his position. He has simply said that, where under any State law there is a charge by the State against any lands, we ought to make our law subject to that charge. Does the honorable member say that we cannot make ours a first charge ? We say that ours shall be the first charge. 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We cannot do it. 4150 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Never mind whether we can. We say we can. The honorable member wants us to amend our clause so as to make our charge subject to any existing charge to a State, created under the law of a State. First of all, we have a perfect right to create a first charge which will supersede the right of a State under any existing State law, and, secondly, I say that only in a case where the State has acted under its powers and actually seized a property will a difficulty arise. 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - How does possession make any difference? 4150 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I am supposing that the State has seized the land - forfeited it, and actually got it. Section 114 of the Constitution is as follows: - A State shall not, without the consent of the Parliament of the Commonwealth, raise or maintain any naval or military force, or impose any tax on property of any kind belonging to the Commonwealth, nor shall the Commonwealth impose any tax on property of any kind belonging to a State. The whole question is whether a right, which may be enforced on a happening of conditions, amounts to anything within the prohibition under section 114. If it does not, we have a perfect right to impose the charge; if it does, we have no right. The question is whether this charge comes within section 114, and, in my opinion, it does not. 4150 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That settles it. 4150 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member has his opinion, and has expressed it. I assume that he will admit that there is a difference between' a charge and a' tax. It is a question whether " tax " in the section means "charge"; that is to. say, whether there is no real fundamental distinction between the imposition of a tax and the right to do something in furtherance of a penalty in reference to the collection of a tax. Surely that must be arguable? I submit, further, that if the honorable member be right, there is no necessity for the words he proposes, because the Constitution imposes the limitation, which must be read into the words of the clause as it stands. The proposed words are either a dangerous attempt to limit our powers, or they are superfluous; and in either case they cannot be accepted. 4151 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN . - I have looked into the question a little, and it strikes me that the well-known equitable principle applies, namely, that the first in time is the first in right. In the South Australian Act, it is provided that the tax shall be a first charge, but that cannot supersede any Federal charge that may be made prior, nor could any Commonwealth charge supersede, any charge payable to the State if the latter be first in time. 4151 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is not what the Attorney-General said, but rather that the tax would take priority of State charges. . 4151 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I think that what I say was the effect of the Attorney-General's argument. The Crown of the State and the Crown of the Commonwealth have equal rights in this matter, because, in the Excise case and in some American cases, it has been held that the powers of taxation are independent - in other words, that the States have independent powers and the Commonwealth has independent powers. We have, therefore, the Crown in two equal capacities ; and the first exercise of the capacity is the first charge. 4151 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM .- I think that the view expressed by the honorable member for Angas .is the correct view. The State can act completely in its own jurisdiction, and the Commonwealth cannot limit or interfere with any valid exercise of its powers of taxation. 4151 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - That is, if the State has actually exercised the powers. 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If a debt is due to the State, it can be created a charge on the land, and the Commonwealth . cannot interfere in any way with that charge when' once operative ; on the other hand, if the Commonwealth, in the exercise of its powers of taxation, is in first, the State cannot limit, impede, or hinder that power in any way. As the clause stands, I think that is how the .Court would construe it; and the honorable member for Flinders is simply saying in his amendment what we all agree is the law at the present time. 4151 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Except the Attorney-General. 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I understand that the Attorney-General accepts that' view- 4151 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I said that, at best; the words suggested by the honorable member for Flinders were superfluous. 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If the State exercises its powers, and a charge has been created, the Attorney-General does not suggest that the Commonwealth can come in and take away that charge from the State? 4151 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I said difficulty would only arise where a State had actually exercised its powers. 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - When the State has done that before the Commonwealth charge came into existence, does the Attorney-General suggest that the Commonwealth can interfere ? 4151 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member desires to know whether the Commonwealth charge could supersede that of the State, when the latter has seized land, and I said that there was a difficulty ; but I thought that it would not. 4151 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Supposing the State has not seized the land? 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - If the State has not seized the land, but simply declared that a charge shall exist, I regard that as an exercise of the power; and that really is the proposal in the Bill. 4151 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The Courts will decide that question under the Constitution. 4151 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Quite so. Our contention is that the Commonwealth and the State is each sovereign within its own jurisdiction ; and the whole question is, which charge has been first created, for that is the one which will stand under the Constitution. 4151 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - I think it is very likely that the honorable member for Angas and the honorable member for Darling Downs have arrived at the correct conclusion; but it is quite inconsistent with the view of the Attorney-General. I specially asked that honorable gentleman whether the object of the clause is to impose this Federal charge in priority to existing State charges, and I understood him to say, more than once, that that was the object. Of course, if the honorable member withdraws from his position now, there is no more to be said ; and I shall not press the amendment. I am inclined, on consideration, to agree with the view of the honorable member for Angas and the honorable member for Darling Downs ; but I hope the Attorney-General will admit that, in reference to the cost of wire-netting, advances to settlers, and so forth, we are not attempting to make a Federal charge in priority. It would greatly relieve the constitutional uncertainty which surrounds a good deal of this measure if the Attorney-General would say. that such is the fact. 4152 KXK Gwydir 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER .- The most amusing part of the utterance of the honorable member for Flinders was that in which he asked the Attorney-General to state something that that gentleman has said it is not necessary to state. What difference would a statement make? The Attorney-General would be very unwise to make a statement at all ; he had better leave the matter as it is, and allow the Court to interpret the rights of the states. I see no necessity for the Attorney-General to embody the suggestion of the honorable member for Flinders in the clause, nor to make any statement such as is desired. 4152 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Cannot the Attorney-General speak for himself? 4152 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I represent the people just as much as does the Attorney-General. However, there seems to be no need to discuss the matter further, since the legal gentlemen have convinced one another that the Attorney-General is right. Amendment (by Mr. W. H. Irvine) negatived - That after the word " whatever," line 3, the following words be inserted: - "Subject to any existing charge to a State created under the law of a State." Amendment (by Mr. Glynn) put - That after the word "liability," line11, the following words be inserted, "or after the expiration of six months from the date on which' the tax became due and payable unless registered under sub-section two of this section." Amendment (by Mr. Glynn) put - That after the word "liability," line11, the following words be inserted, "or after the expiration of six months from the date on which' the tax became due and payable unless registered under sub-section two of this section." The Committee divided. 21 Çook, Joseph Deakin, A. Fairbairn, G. Forrest, Sir John Foster, Richard Glynn, P. McM. Groom, L. E. Hedges, W. N. Irvine, Hans Irvine, W. H. Lyne, Sir William McWilliams, W. J. Palmer, A. C. Quick, Sir John Sinclair, H. Smith, Bruce Thomson, John Wise, G. H. Wynne, Agar. Greene, W. M. (Teller) Johnson, W. Elliot (Teller) 26 Anstey, F. Archibald, W. O. Batchelor, E. L. Beard, H. E. Brown, Thomas Cann, G. Chanter, J. M. Charlton, M. Fenton, J. E. Finlayson, W. F. Frazer, C. E. Higgs, W. G. Hughes, W. M. Maloney, Dr. Mathews, . J. O'Malley, King Riley, E. Smith, Laird Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Tudor, F. G. Watkins, D. Webster, W. West, J. E. Foster, Frank (Teller) Scullin, J. H. (Teller) 22 Harper, R. Fowler, J. M. Sampson, S. Edwards, Richard Salmon, Dr. Carty Best, Sir Robert Atkinson, L. Edwards, . G. B. Kelly, W. H. Livingston, J. Fuller, G. W. Howe, R. Johnson, W. J. Moloney, Parker Page, J. Fisher, A. Ozanne, A. J. Bamford, F. W. Mahon, H. Carr, E. S. Roberts, E. A. Jensen, J. A. Majority ... ... 5 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 4152 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Will the Attorney- General see that such powers are delegated to the Deputy Commissioner in each State as will enable inquiries to be conducted in the State in which the land is situated ? Mr. Hughes. - Yes. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to - That the following words be added to subclause 1 : - " Provided further that a purchaser shall be deemed to have made due inquiry who has made inquiry of the Commissioner as prescribed." 4152 L1P Gippsland 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE .- I move - That the following words be added to the clause : - " (3.) The Commissioner shall, upon the application in writing of any person addressed to him, stating in such application the particulars of the property in respect of which information is required as to the Land Tax and other moneys due or payable thereon under this Act, and upon payment of a fee of One shilling, forthwith procure and give to such applicant, or send by registered letter by post to the person so applying (whose name and address shall be stated in such application) a certificate in writing, signed by or on behalf of the Commissioner, in which certificate it shall be stated what (if any) Land Tax and other moneys and interest are due or payable under this Act in respect of such property, with the particulars of such Land Tax and other moneys and interest, and when the same became due or payable or that no such Land Tax or other moneys are then due or payable, as the case may be. The production of such certificate so signed shall for all purposes whatsoever be deemed conclusive proof that at the date thereof no Land Tax or other moneys were due or payable under this Act other than those stated in such certificate in respect of such properly." While the Attorney-General has resolved that inquiry may be made of the Commissioner, it will not be incumbent upon that officer to return an answer. In Victoria, rates are a charge on the property on which they are assessed, and it used to be the practice in connexion with land transactions to inquire of the clerk of the municipality in which the land was situated what amount, if any, was owing on it in respect of rates. In one instance, the clerk stated that nothing was due when there was really a debt of some pounds, and two or three years later the municipality sought to recover the debt from the purchaser of the land, who had been misled by the clerk's reply to his inquiry. Chi the case going to the Full Court, it was held that the clerk's certificate did not bind the municipality, and the purchaser of the land had to pay the rates. This was seen to be unjust, and the Local Government Act of 1903 contains a provision, of which my amendment is virtually a copy, requiring council clerks to reply to applications in writing, and the replies so given bind the municipalities. This provision seems to be a complement to the proviso just inserted by the Attorney-General. 4153 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES .-I cannot accept the amendment, because the proviso just inserted does all that should be asked. We do not wish to deter persons from buying land by reason of the fact that they may thus be acquiring concealed liabilities ; but as the clause now stands, a bona fide purchaser for value who. has made due inquiry will be in the same position as such a purchaser is in other respects under the Real Property Acts of New South Wales and Victoria, and the Torrens Act of South Australia. When such a man has made due inquiry, and has been informed that the land which he wishes to purchase is not liable for taxation, he cannot subsequently be called upon to pay. 4153 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON .- I think that the Attorney-General ought to accept this harmless necessary addition to the clause, which will be of great assistance to solicitors and others interested in the transfer of land. Without some such provision, it may be impossible to obtain a reply from the Commissioner, while the public may be kept waiting for months for replies, to the great hindrance of business. The acceptance of the amendment would not weaken the Bill, and would greatly assist all who have dealings in land. 4153 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST . - Will it be necessary that all inquiries in respect to transactions in land coming within the scope of the Bill shall be addressed to Melbourne, or to the Seat of Government, before it can be known whether there is any tax due on such land ? If so, the settlement of land transactions in distant States will be unworkable, and the whole system will prove most cumbersome. Could not Deputy Commissioners or some other officers be appointed to furnish the information and give the necessary acquittance? 4153 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I said just now that that would be done. The Commissioner may delegate such powers. 4153 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Would it not be advisable to make provision for the appointment of a Deputy Commissioner in each State capital? 4153 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes -There is such a provision in the Bill. 4153 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - The Attorney- General might well accept the Amendment proposed by the honorable member for Gippsland. The new proviso proposed by the Attorney-General deals only with the position of the purchaser, who shall be deemed to have made " due inquiry " on his making inquiry of the Commissioner as prescribed. The honorable member for Gippsland suggests, however, that if provision were made for the giving of a certificate delay would be avoided. 4153 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - What would that certificate amount to? 4153 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - It would be conclusive evidence that the tax had been paid, and would he produced by the vendor. 4153 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - And the vendor and purchaser would be able to settle up at once. 4153 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Yes. I would point out that under the clause as it stands the settlement of a land transaction at Townsville might be delayed for three weeks if inquiry had to be made from the Deputy Commissioner at Brisbane as to whether or not the tax on the land had been paid. 4154 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - And evidence as to due inquiry having been made would also have to be obtained. 4154 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - That is so. The honorable member's amendment would not destroy the effect of the clause, and I am quite sure that it would give satisfaction. 4154 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - - The course proposed by me seems to he ?i perfectly convenient and proper way of securing that which the honorable' member for Gippsland desires. I wish to make it clear that once the Commissioner has said that there is no charge on a piece of land, his word, irrespective- of whether or not he has made a mistake, will be final. " Due_ inquiry " merely means asking the Commissioner whether there is any charge on the land. ' 4154 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - But the Bill does not provide that, the Commissioner is to reply to such an inquiry. 4154 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - There are many parts of Australia where there are no Commonwealth officers, but where there is a lot of land changing hands. We are dealing, not with a _ two-penny half -penny duckpond, but with a continent, and we cannot stud it all over with land officers or Deputy Commissioners. We can only do our best, and the Committee has the assurance that the Government fully realize how necessary it is to place no obstacle in the way of land settlement. We provide for due inquiry being made, and every facility will be given for making inquiry of the Commissioner, his deputies, or any officer to whom he chooses to delegate this power. 4154 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - I am surprised that the Attorney-General should refuse to accept this amendment, more especially since, according to his own statement, this measure will be administered, not merely by one Commissioner, but by a large number of subordinate officers in various parts of the Commonwealth. Those officers are not placed under any obligation to reply to inquiries. 4154 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - And there is no acquittance. - 4154 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is so. Delay may take place in replying to letters of inquiry, unless there is cast- upon the officers a clear-cut responsibility to supply a certificate.- I can understand the Attorney-general not desiring to assent straight away to the form of this amendment, because it is rather long, and may need to be examined ; but if he were to agree to an amendment providing that the Commissioner " shall give such certificate as may be prescribed, " my difficulty would be overcome. 4154 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Under the clause as amended the Commissioner may do that. 4154 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - But we require that he shall be compelled to supply a certificate when. requested to do so. Promptitude and certainty are above all things necessary in connexion with dealings in land, otherwise friction and difficulty must occur. I hope that the Attorney-General will at least promise to consider the matter, for it is one of great practical convenience. 4154 L1P Gippsland 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE . - I submitted my amendment as a practical matter, and as the result of my experience as a solicitor in investigating titles when acting for purchasers. It is the duty of a solicitor when so acting to see that the title in question is free of all charges, and to make inquiries in respect of all .such matters. The Attorney-General says that the Commissioner may furnish a reply, but we desire that the Bill shall definitely provide that a reply must be made to such inquiry. Before a solicitor can advise a purchaser of land to settle, he must know whether the land tax has been paid, or he may desire to apportion it, in respect of the current year, as between vendor and purchaser. Under the clause as amended it is provided that " due inquiry " will be sufficient to clear a bond fide purchaser of responsibility for the payment of land tax, but he .would have to prove that he had made due inquiry, and might not be able to produce evidence that his letter of inquiry had reached the Commissioner. Under my amendment, if a solicitor acting for a purchaser wrote in due time to the Commissioner for a certificate, and it had not reached him before the day fixed for settlement, he would at once telegraph for a reply, and would be able to make sure that his inquiry had reached its proper destination. I cannot see what objection there is to compelling the Commissioner to answer an inquiry. I am quite willing to adopt the suggestion made by the honorable member for Flinders that the Attorney-General, in the event of his refusing to accept my amendment, should provide in the Bill itself for the Commissioner giving a certificate " as prescribed." Question - That the words proposed to be added (Mr. Wise's amendment) be so added - put. The Committee divided. 22 Cook, Joseph Deakin, A. Fairbairn, G. Forrest, Sir John Foster, Richard Fuller, G. W. Glynn, P. McM. Greene, W. M. Groom, L. E. Hedges, W. N. Irvine, Hans Irvine, W. H. Lyne, Sir W. J. Palmer, A. C. Quick, Sir John Sinclair, H. Smith, Bruce Thomson, John Wise, G. H. Wynne, Agar Johnson, W. Elliot (Teller) McWilliams, W. J. (Teller) 27 Anstey, F. Archibald, W. O. Batchelor, E. L. Beard, H. E. Brown, Thomas Cann, G. Chanter, J. M. Charlton, M. Fenton, J. E. Finlayson, W. F. Frazer, C. E. Higgs, W. G. Hughes, W. M. Jensen, J. A. Maloney, Dr. Mathews, J. O'Malley, King Riley, E. Scullin, J. H. Smith, Laird Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Tudor, F. G. Webster, W. West, J. E. Foster, Frank (Teller) Watkins, D. (Teller) 0 Harper, K. Fowler, J. M. Sampson, S. Edwards, Richard Salmon, Dr. Carty Best, Sir Robert Atkinson, L. Edwards, G. B. Kelly, W. H. Livingston, J. Howe, R. Johnson, W. J. Moloney, Parker Page, J. Fisher, A. Ozanne, A. T. Bamford, F. W. Mahon, H. Carr, E. S. Roberts, E. A. Majority ... ... 5 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause53- Every person who, under the provision of this Act, pays any tax for or on behalf of any other person, shall be entitled to recover the same from that other person as a debt, together with the cost of recovery, or to retain or deduct same out of any money in his hands belonging or payable to that other person. 4155 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON .- We might extend the clause to cover a class of case which arises chiefly through the operations of wills and settlements, where people will have to pay the whole tax, after paying out various annuities. The Attorney- General might try to relieve a man who has to pay all the tax in that way by giving him power to deduct a fair proportion of the tax from the moneys that he has to pay to the annuitants. A man may have an estate which brings in £5,000 a year. He is the legal owner, and liable to pay the tax, but out of that £5,000 he may have to pay £2,000 or £3,000 to different people in annuities. When he pays the tax, in addition to the annuities, his own income will probably have nearly vanished. I suggest the addition of the following words to the clause - Provided that where a taxpayer is liable for the payment of a sum or sums of money charged upon the land in respect of which the tax is payable, such taxpayer shall be entitled to deduct from each sum so charged and payable by him as aforesaid an amount as contribution equal to the proportion which the said sum or sums bear to the full improved value of the said land after such sum or sums have been capitalized on an interest-bearing basis of £5 per centum per annum. That would work out in this way : Take an estate of the full improved value of £150,000, and a taxable unimproved value of £95,000. The man responsible for the tax, as the Bill now stands, would pay £1,59315s.inland taxation. He has to pay an annuity of £1,000 to A, and another of £1,500 to B. £1,000 capitalized at 5 per cent. would be £20,000, which is two- fifteenths of £150,000. Twofifteenths of the annuity of £1,000 is £133 6s. 8d. The annuity of £1,500 capitalized in the same way represents £30,000, which is one-fifth of the total improved value of the estate. One-fifth of £1,500 is £300. Therefore, the man who has to pay the full tax to the Commonwealth would be entitled to deduct from his payment of £1,000 to A the sum of £133 6s. 8d., and from his payment of £1,500 to B the sum of £300. The people in receipt of annuities ought to pay something towards the tax. It was never thought by many people, when making wills and settlements, that the man to whom the property was left, subject to annuities, would have to contend with anything like this. There will be many cases in Australia, where, after the annuities are paid, as they must be, and the land tax is paid, the owner of the land will have nothing left. My amendment will not interfere with any principle in the Bill; it will do justice; and I hope the Attorney-General will give it favorable consideration. 4155 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The case put by the honorable member for Wilmot is rather complicated and difficult. No doubt a great deal of hardship may arise in such circumstances, but I was unable to follow the precise scope of the honorable member's amendment. If he will be satisfied by my declaration that I will look into the matter, and that, as far as possible, such cases will be met, I shall be glad to make the offer accordingly. 4156 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Certainly. 4156 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- I should like to call attention to a matter germane to this clause, and to which the honorable member for Grampians directed my notice this evening. He said it was a pity that some allowance was not made in connexion with annuitants, such as the honorable member for Wilmot has mentioned. We passed in clause 29 a provision that where, under a settlement or a will of a person who had died before 1st July, 1910, there was a division amongst the relatives of the settlors, a deduction of £5,000 could be made for the share of each beneficiary from the total assessment against the trustee. Thus, if the total assessment was £40,000, and there were three beneficiaries of, say, £5,000 each, there would be a deduction of £15,000, and the tax would fall on the remaining £25,000. The word "share" does not, I think, cover annuities, and it may be that the Attorney-General could comply with the desire of the honorable member for Wilmot by sufficiently widening the definition of the word. The value of annuities could be capitalized at 4 per cent. or 5 per cent., and the necessary deduction made. The honorable member for Grampians drew my attention to this point, and I ask the Attorney-General to look at the matter in the way I have suggested. 4156 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I shall. Clause agreed to. Clause 54 agreed to. Clause 55 - If within three years after any land tax has been paid it is discovered that too little in amount has been paid, the taxpayer liable for the tax shall forthwith pay the deficiency : Provided that nothing in this section shall operate to limit or affect the liability of the taxpayer or any other person under section forty-seven of this Act. Clause verbally amended. 4156 L1P Gippsland 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE . - Ido not see the necessity for this clause in view of clause 50. The latter provides that no statute of limitations shall affect any action or remedy for the recovery of land tax, while the clause under discussion says that if within three years after any land tax has been paid it is discovered that too little an amount has been forwarded the taxpayers will forthwith pay the deficiency. 4156 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - We, in Australia, have always prided ourselves on the simplicity with which properties can be transferred under the various Land Acts of the States. Whenever property over the value of £5,000 is cut up, any solicitor, before he can pass the title of any block, has to find out whether there is any liability or charge attached ; and if, as here provided, we make this tax a perpetual charge on the land, all sorts of transfers and mortgages will be tied up. This will increase the cost of preparing transfers, and of mortgages, even of small allotments, below the value of £5,000, and will generally cause delay and trouble. I think the Attorney-General might provide that, if no claim is made within three years, the purchaser or person taking the mortgage shall have a clean title. Unless an amendment of this kind is made great difficulty will arise, especially in distant parts of the country from which it will not be easy to communicate with the Commissioner in Melbourne or at Yass-Canberra ; and people who desire to have money in a hurry on mortgage will have to wait. . 4156 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The clauses of the Bill from 45 to 52, inclusive, deal with the manner in which the land tax may be recovered, and provide for security by making it a charge on the land. Clause 55 deals with other cases where there have been simply a shortage in the payment without either misstatement or undervaluation; and here, of course, there is a clear distinction. It is to meet cases where, through no fault of anybody concerned, there has been a short payment; and the clause is very necessary. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 56 agreed to. Clause 57 - Every company which is a taxpayer .... shall at all times be represented by a person residing in Australia .... called the public officer of the Company. ... If the Company fails or neglects to duly appoint a public officer .... it shall be guilty of an offence. Penalty : Fifty pounds for every day during which the failure or neglect continues. 4156 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - It is not every company or manager of a company who will know that a public officer has to be appointed under this Bill. Under the Income Tax and Companies Acts of the different States public officers have to be registered in connexion with all companies carrying on business here, although registered abroad, and now we are providing for another public officer. Although this is a provision" which may easily be overlooked, the penalty attached is£50 a day, or over £15,000 a year. I should say that a penalty of £5 a day would be quite sufficient. 4157 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - That is the ordinary penalty. 4157 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - It would seem as if we were going to extremes in making this an absolutely penal measure; and I ask the Attorney- General to consider the matter. 4157 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The New Zealand Act provides for a precisely similar penalty. 4157 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Why so much ? 4157 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Honorable members opposite seem to think that the tax, and everything connected with it, are too much ; but I point out that, according, to the Acts Interpretation Act, the clause means that the penalty shall not exceed £50 - it may be anything less. I may add that there is a similar provision also in the New South Wales Act. We are dealing with powerful companies, and we require pecuniary penalties sufficiently high to deter them from wrong-doing. 4157 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - I remember a case in Victoria in which a company, registered in New South Wales, opened a small office in Melbourne, and, under a similar law, was sued for and mulcted in penalties amounting to more than the whole of the assets of the company. If I remember rightly, that took place under an Act which provided that all advertisements in connexion with companies must set out the amount of the paid-up capital; and, there being an omission, an informer sued and recovered the penalty of £10 a day, with the result that the company, through a sheer mistake, was completely ruined. 4157 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The New South Wales Act provides a penalty for such an omission. 4157 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - Then, that apparently was not known to the company. These offences are very small, and may arise from pure accident. The question was raised on a Bill recently before us, and a number of honorable members expressed a doubt as to whether, when a fixed penalty is mentioned as in this case, it has not to be enforced. A limit of£10 a day would be ample. At the end of one hundred days, such a fine would have amounted to £1,000, and not much harm would be done if the company omitted to register for that period. It must be remembered that the general public knows little of what we are enacting, not one man in a hundred reading our legislation. Since I left the State Parliament, I seldom read the measures submitted to it, or even the reports of its proceedings, and it is hardly likely that many members of the general public follow our proceedings very closely. I move - That the word "Fifty" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " Ten." Question put. The Committee divided. 18 Cook, Joseph Deakin, A. Fairbairn, G. Forrest, Sir John Foster, Richard Fuller, G. W. Glynn, P. McM. Groom, L. E. Irvine, Hans McWilliams, W. J. Quick, Sir John Sinclair, H. Smith, Bruce Thomson, John Wise, G .. H. Wynne, Agar Greene, W. M. (Teller) Johnson, W. Elliot (Teller) 24 Anstey, F. Archibald, W. O. Batchelor, E. L. Brown Thomas Cann, G. Charlton, M. Fenton, J. E. Finlayson, W. F. Frazer, C. E. Hughes, W. M. Jensen, J. A. Maloney, Dr. Mathews, J. O'Malley, King Riley, E. Scullin, J. H. Smith, Laird Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Tudor, F. G. Webster, W. West, J. E. Foster, Frank (Teller) Watkins, D. (Teller) 24 Harper, R. Fowler, J. M. Sampson, S. Edwards, Richard Salmon, Dr. Carty Best, Sir Robert Atkinson, L. Palmer, A. C. Edwards, G. B. Kelly, W. H. Livingston, J. Irvine, W. H. Howe, R. Johnson, W. J. Moloney, Parker Page, J. Fisher, A. Ozanne, A. T. Bamford, F. W. Beard, H. E. Mahon, H. Carr, E. S. Roberts, E. A. Higgs, W. G. Majority ... ... 6 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clause 58 agreed to. Clause 59 - Every contract agreement or arrangement made or entered into, in writing or verbally, shall so far as it has or purports to have the purpose or effect of in any way, directly or indirectly, altering the incidence of any land tax; or relieving any person from liability to pay any land tax or making any return ; or defeating evading or avoiding any duty or liability imposed on any person by this Act; or preventing the operation of this Act in any respect, be absolutely void, but without prejudice to its validity in any other respect or for any other purpose. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That after the word " verbally," line 2, the words " whether before or after the commencement of this Act" be inserted. 4158 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Is it intended that, in cases where tenants have agreed to pay all rates, taxes, and charges whatsoever, the agreement shall be null and void so far as taxation proposed by the Bill is concerned ? Mr. Hughes. - Yes. 4158 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- The clause is more important than seems to. be realized. Only yesterday my attention was drawn to it by a firm of solicitors, who said that it would very much hamper operations in regard to the development of certain mining leases in South Australia. Under the law of that State, an apportionment is provided for where a lessee has seven years of his term to run ; but future leases are left to the usual operation of the law of contract. My impression is that the High Court will have something to say about this provision, which does not seem ancillary to the purposes of the measure'. Of course, where a leasehold has a sale value, it will be taxable. The provision may be constitutional regarding existing leases, but I doubt whether it can be made to apply to future leases. As the Opposition is willing to facilitate the consideration of the remaining clauses to-morrow, nothing will be lost by reporting progress now. 4158 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The clause must be read in conjunction with clauses 26A and 26B, of which the former takes out of the operation of the measure all Crown leases other than perpetual leases, and leases giving the right to purchase. Clause 26b deals specifically with the liability of lessees, both before and after the Act. Clause 59, with which we are now dealing, relates to all other attempts to evade the Act, and whatever they may be, they are not necessarily those to which the honorable member for Darling Downs has referred. They seem to be covered by clause 26B; and, in so far as they are not, this clause will apply. The clause intends, as far as possible, to place the incidence of the tax on the person who ought properly to pay it, and will not permit of any evasion, nor of any attempt to evade. 4158 L1R Balaclava 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE . - I think that this clause goes, a great deal further than the Attorney-General intends. Under the amendment, it will be retrospective and may, so to speak, rip up numerous contracts for the sale of land that have already been entered into. A person who has subdivided and sold part of his land will have altered the incidence of the tax, and the mere fact of his having done so before the passing of this Bill will make the contracts of sale absolutely void. We are going to give people opportunities to cancel contracts already entered into, and are making it an offence to enter into contracts that will vary the incidence of this measure before it actually comes into force. Surely it was never intended that we should pass retrospective legislation by which contracts in existence shall be declared void as between the parties who have legally entered into them with their eyes open. They are to be void if they interfere in any way with the incidence of the land tax, or relieve any person of liability to pay the tax, or to make a return under this Bill. Any one who cuts up an estate, and sells part of it, will be relieved of certain liabilities under this Bill; and all contracts entered into for the sale of that land can be voided. I do not think that the Attorney- General intended that that should be the effect of his amendment. Parliament, as a rule, is strongly averse to retrospective legislation, and I suggest that the Attorney-General should leave the clause as originally drafted. Any contract entered into before the passing of the Bill should be legal ; but the clause cannot be made too strong to deal with any person who enters info a contract after the passing of the Bill, with a view to altering the incidence of the tax, or of attempting to evade it. The clause, as proposed to be amended, will go further than any legislation of the kind of which I know. Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted (Mr. Hughes' amendment) - put. The Committee divided. 25 Anstey, F. Archibald, W. O. Batchelor, E. L. Brown, Thomas Cann, G. Charlton, M. Finlayson, W. F. Foster, Frank Frazer, C. E. Hughes, W. M. Jensen, J. A. Maloney, Dr. Mathews, J. O'Malley, King Riley, E. Scullin, J. H Smith, Laird Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Tudor, F. G. Webster, W. West, J. E. Wise, G. H. Fenton, J. E. (Teller) Watkins, D. (Teller) 15 Cook, Joseph Deakin, A. Forrest, Sir John Foster, Richard Glynn, P. McM. Greene, W. M. Groom, L. E. Irvine, Hans McWilliams, W. J. Sinclair, H. Smith, Bruce Thomson, John Wynne, Agar Atkinson, L. (Teller) Johnson, W. Elliot (Teller) 30 Mahon, H. Johnson, W. J. Fisher, A. Carr, E. S. Moloney, Parker Roberts, E. A. Howe, R. Bamford, F. W. Page, J. Ozanne, A. J. McDougall, J. K. Beard, H. E. Quick, Sir John Chanter, J. M. Higgs, W. G. Edwards, G. B. Fowler, J. M. Salmon, Dr. Carty Kelly, W. H. Sampson, S. Livingston, J. Harper, R. Fairbairn, G. Edwards, Richard Best, Sir Robert Fuller, G. W. Palmer, A. C. Catts, J. H. Hedges, W. N. Irvine, W. H. Majority ... ... 10 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment agreed to. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That after the word "shall," line 2, the following words be inserted : - " except as provided by section 26B of this Act." 4159 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Will the Attorney-General explain the exact effect of the amendment? 4159 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I have already done so. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 60 (Access to land, buildings, &c.) 4159 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - Can the Attorney-General state whether the officers who are to have free access to all documents and papers are to be permanent members of the Public Service, or whether they may be officers temporarily employed? We have removed the penalty clause dealing with secrecy, but if an officer in the Public Service discloses any private information which he acquires over and above the mere valuation of the land, we have control over him. 4159 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - An exactly similar provision is made in the New Zealand Act. The clause gives a general and very necessary power. We cannot limit the Commissioner's power by saying that he may enter upon land but not into buildings, or look at deeds but not at books. 4159 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - In New Zealand the officers mentioned are particular officers, authorized under the Act. Mere temporary officers, employed to value land, ought not to be given authority to examine all sorts of private books and papers. 4159 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The wording of the New Zealand Act is exactly the same. Clause agreed to. Clause 61 - (1.) The Commissioner may by notice in writing require any person, whether a taxpayer or not, to attend and give evidence before him. 4159 L1P Gippsland 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE .- It is provided in all Acts relating to the summoning of witnesses that a man must be tendered his expenses before he can be compelled to attend a Court. I therefore move - That after the word " not," line 3, the following words be inserted : - " after tendering such person a reasonable sum for his expenses." Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted (Mr. Wise's amendment) - put. The Committee divided. 16 Atkinson, L. Charlton, M. Cook, Joseph Forrest, Sir John Foster, Richard Glynn, P. McM. Groom, L. E. Maloney, Dr. McWilliams, W. J. Quick, Sir John Sinclair, H. Smith, Bruce Thomson, John Wise, G. H. Greene, W. M. (Teller) Johnson, W. Elliot (Teller) 21 Anstey, F. Archibald, W. O. Batchelor, E. L. Brown Thomas Cann, G. Fenton, J. K. Finlayson, W. F. Frazer, C. E. Flughes, W. M. Mathews, J. O'Malley, King Riley, E. Scullin, J. H. Smith, Laird Spence, W. G. Thomas, J. Tudor, F. G. webster, W. West, J. E. Foster, Frank (Teller) Watkins, D. (Teller) 0 Salmon, Dr. Carty Fisher, A. Sampson, S. Moloney, Parker Harper, R. Howe, R. Best, Sir Robert Ozanne, A. T. Fairbairn, G. Bamford, F. W. Edwards, Richard Page, J. Edwards, G. B. Mahon, H. Fowler, J. M. Johnson, W. J. Kelly, W. H. Carr, E. S. Livingston, J. Roberts, E. A. Fuller, G. W. McDougall, J. K. Palmer, A. C. Beard, H. E. Hedges, W. N. Chanter, J. M. Irvine, W. H. Higgs, W. G. Deakin, A. Jensen, J. A. Irvine, Hans Hall, D. R. Majority ... ... 5 AYES NOES PAIRS Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clause 62 (Release of taxpayer in case of hardship). 4160 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - Does not the Attorney-General think that it is time to adjourn? He has made very great progress, and it ought not to take long now to dispose of the remaining clauses of the Bill. He smiles; but I guarantee that if he had been on this side with his friends, the Bill would have taken about three months to get through the House. 4160 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - If the honorable member had been on this side, it would have taken three minutes. It would have taken just as long as it would have taken to apply the " gag." 4160 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member is taking another course. He does not believe in that kind of thing; and nobody else, I hope, will attempt to "gag" a proposal of this kind through, so that the remark is entirely out of place. I merely suggest that he has made good progress, and that it is time for us to go home. 4160 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I am very ready to suggest that we should go home ; but it is very obvious that we must finish the Bill at some time. What I suggest is an arrangement whereby we shall finish the clauses as they stand in the Bill by dinner time to-morrow - that is, in about three hours - and take on Friday the recommittal and the new clauses, about which there can be very little discussion. That is an arrangement to which I think honorable members might come. We cannot go on for ever. I do not believe in sitting late- indeed, I am very reluctant to do so. This afternoon we wasted four hours on clause 44, and discussed it long after there was practically nothing to discuss. I do hope that the arrangement I have indicated can be arrived at. 4160 KCO Angas 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN .- It is impossible for one to pledge his word that honorable members will not speak on a matter, unless there is an absolute concert. We on this side will facilitate getting through the Bill by the time mentioned, but, considering the importance of one clause, I cannot pledge honorable members not to discuss it at greater length. The Attorney-General will remember that on two occasions where I said on behalf of others that, as far as. possible, we would terminate discussion at a certain time, we came to the exact clause mentioned by him at the time named. I would ask the honorable gentleman to accept an assurance of that kind. As far as I am personally concerned, and I believe I speak for the Opposition generally, we will facilitate the measure being passed through Committee by half-past 6 o'clock tomorrow evening. 4160 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - What about the recommittals ? 4160 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I believe, but cannot positively promise, that they will be disposed of by Friday afternoon. I do not think that there will be much difficulty about the new clauses. 4160 DQC West Sydney ALP Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - Of course, I understand that the honorable member for Angas cannot bind every one on his own side of the Committee any more than we can bind the supporters of the Government. I am satisfied with the honorable member's assurance. I understand that he agrees that, as far as he can speak for the Opposition, we shall dispose of the Bill in Committee before dinner to-morrow afternoon. 4160 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I cannot speak absolutely as to the recommittals. I do not say that we shall get through all the recommittals on Friday. It will be time to-morrow to speak about them. 4161 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - May I ask for the hearty co-operation of honorable members opposite to dispose of the Bill as far as possible by Friday at 4 o'clock? The Acting Leader of the Opposition seems to think that there is some catch in what I am proposing, but I am putting the matter quite fairly. 4161 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I should like the Attorney-General to understand that I take what he has said as being uttered in good faith. It is not a good thing to begin by imputing motives. I hesitate to commit myself with respect to any particular time for disposing of so important a Bill, though I have no wish to see it delayed one minute longer than is absolutely necessary. A measure like this, however, is far too important to be bludgeoned through without proper discussion, and I can commit myself to no course of action which would prevent fair discussion. Arrangements have, however, been suggested by the two members of the Opposition who have borne the brunt of the criticism. They have assured the Attorney-General that they will, as far as possible, facilitate the passage of the Bill, and that there will be no undue delay. I hope that there may be none. 4161 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - All I want is the honorable member's co-operation. Does he fall into line with the arrangement? 4161 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The honorable gentleman will not lose anything by adjourning now. Progress reported. 4161 miscellaneous Mr. SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Senate, stating that it concurred in the resolution of congratulation passed by the House in reference to the union of the South African Colonies. 4161 bill Bill returned from the Senate without request. 4161 adjournment 4161 Motion (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 4161 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I should like to correct a misre port which occurs in this evening's Herald in regard to a statement I made this afternoon in putting a question to the Minister of External Affairs. The newspaper reports me as saying that I "had before me an auctioneer's advertisement concerning land in Western Australia. I said nothing whatever about an auctioneer's advertisement. I quoted the statement of. the responsible Minister of Lands in Western Australia, to the effect that there were 1,000,000 acres which had been surveyed and were awaiting settlement. How the reference to the auctioneer's advertisement crept into the report 1 am unable to say. Question resolved in the affirmative. 4161 23:34:00 House adjourned at 11.34p.m.