1911-11-17 4 2 0 REPS 2825 0 House of Representatives 1911-11-17 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 2825 Questions 2825 2825 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - I wish to know from the Minister of External Affairs if the following report of remarks alleged to have been made by him yesterday, appearing in this morning's Argus, is correct : ' - Queensland is full up. This great continent is crying out for people, and there are not snips enough to carry those who want to come, yet Queensland has actually asked that agricultural immigrants from Russian Siberia should be warned off. The Russian Consul in Melbourne waited on me to-day concerning some of these immigrants. He stated that the Consul in Brisbane had been informed by the Queensland Government that the immigration depots were full, and had been asked to stay the immigrants from Russia and Siberia. If it is correct, I should like to know what the honorable gentleman means by the expression that Queensland is " full up." Does he mean that the State has as many immigrants as it can assimilate, or does he mean that it is " full up " of immigrants in the sense in which I might use the word if I said that I am " full up " of the -Victorian election? 2825 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The statement in the Argus is correct with this exception, that it was the Vice-Consul and not the Consul for Russia who called on me. He informed me that a number of Russian immigrants have been going to Queensland for some time past, but that the Consul there has been notified by the State Government that, as the immigration depots are required for immigrants coming from Great Britain, it would be glad if he would take steps to prevent further immigrants coming from Siberia. 2825 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - The statement that Queensland is " full up " of immigrants is hardly correct. 2825 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - It is. " full up " of Russians. That is what is the matter. 2825 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I understood that the State, having made arrangements for immigrants from the ' United Kingdom, did not desire any more from Siberia. Those who come from Siberia pay their own fares, and do not put the country, to any expense, and yet they have been asked by the State not to come. 2825 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - May I invite the attention of the Minister to the golden opportunity which now offers for the Commonwealth to step forward pointing out that large parts of the Northern Territory possess in great measure the resources and advantages of Queensland, and that there is room there for tens of thousands of suitable settlers, if they will come? 2825 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I told the Vice-Consul that if two Russians from Queensland: could be selected, I would make arrangements for them to visit the Northern Territory to sp.y out the land, with a view to .getting as uri any Russians as would come to settle there. 2825 2825 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Some days ago I asked the Minister of Home. Affairs to lay on the table the papers connected with the appointment of Watchman Ross. I now have the papers, but they do not disclose the cause of the appointment. ' Will the Minister obtain from, the Director-General of Works, and lay-by the table, a statement of the reasons of the appointment? 2825 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - T - The man was appointed because we wished to protect the Commonwealth property for which we are responsible. 2825 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - I desire the Minister to lay on the table a' statement from the Director-General of Works as to the reasons for the appointment. 2825 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Does" the Minister wish to convey to the House that the ordinary police protection is not sufficient, and that the poor fellow Ross had to be put on to watch the police and the building?. 2826 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - As As Minister of Home Affairs, I am responsible for the. protection of the property of the Commonwealth, and when there is ,£25,000. or .£30,000 worth of property, it is going to be watched, even though some members of the Opposition desire to make capital out of the fact that I am, looking after these properties, not as they wish me to do, but as I think proper. 2826 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The Minister has misunderstood the request of the honorable member for Richmond. He has asked if the Minister will lay on the table the papers relating to the appointment, giving particulars as to the vacancy created, the applications sent in, and the reasons for the appointment which was made? 2826 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - T - The honorable member for Richmond asked to have the papers laid on the table of the Library, and they were laid there - every paper connected with Mr. Ross' appointment. 2826 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - There is nothing about the appointment. 2826 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - Eve Every paper connected with Mr. Ross is there. No member of the Opposition is going to run the Department of Home Affairs while I am Minister. When members of the Opposition become Ministers, they can take advice, and no doubt will do as their officials tell them, but that is not my plan. 2826 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The Minister promised me that he would lay on the table of the House the papers connected with the appointment. 2826 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'malley - O - On the table of the Library. 2826 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - My statement 'is virtually correct. Will the honorable gentleman fulfil his promise, and lay on the table of the House all the papers connected with the appointment of Watchman Ross ? 2826 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The The honorable member asked for the papers connected with the appointment of Ross, and they were all laid on the table, every paper in the Home Affairs Department. That is what he got, ' and he will get nothing more. 2826 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - There is nothing in the papers about the appointment. 2826 2826 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr OZANNE - Will the Minister representing the Minister of Defence lay on the table the papers relating to the disbanding of the Drysdale battery? I wish to know why it was disbanded ? 2826 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I shall ask the Minister to supply the information. 2826 2826 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - The sum of .£1,200 is set down for the provision of quarantine accommodation' in Queensland. In view of the fact that ship passengers had recently to be brought all the way from Thursday Island to Sydney because of an outbreak of an epidemic, is it the intention of the Government to spend the money in providing quarantine accommodation in Northern Queensland, or is the station at Moreton Bay to be enlarged and added to? 2826 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Inquiries are being made as to the best place for a quarantine station in Queensland. We are waiting for the report of the Director of Quarantine before spending any money. 2826 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Will the Minister, see what can be done for the removal of the leper station from Peel Island, Moreton Bay, to whatever new quarantine station is created ? 2826 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - Surely not. 2826 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The control of lepers is wholly a State matter. I do not know that what the honorable member asks is possible, but I ' shall inquire into the subject. 2826 2826 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr MCWILLIAMS - Will the Minister representing the Minister of Defence lay on the table of the Library the reports of the expert who selected the site for the Naval College? 2826 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I shall s-ubnuj the question to the Minister of Defence for his consideration. 2826 miscellaneous 2826 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I wish to give notice that I intend to ask this afternoon for leave to move then a motion providing that hereafter on every sitting day, unless otherwise ordered, Government business shall take precedence of general business. 2826 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Prime Minister can do that now. Is it the pleasure pf the House that leave be given? 2827 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I object. There is no need for the motion before next Wednesday. 2827 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The Prime Minister will remember that recently, when the afternoon usually devoted to private members' business was taken for Government business, he promised to give the time back later in the session. In view of the statement just made, I ask if he intends to redeem that promise? 2827 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - What I said was that the time taken would be given back later in the same day, but the Opposition, in the exercise of its undoubted rights, occupied the whole day in the discussion of Government business. 2827 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - It was the Ministerialists who took up most of the time. 2827 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - At any rate, a day will be made available for private members' business before the session closes. 2827 Questions 2827 2827 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr CANN - Has the Minister of Trade and Customs yet received from the Royal Commissioner/Mr. Paull, his report on the iron bounty question? If so, will he lay it on the table of the House? 2827 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I shall lay it on the table as soon as the questions without notice have been dealt with. 2827 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Has a report been received from a Royal Commission appointed by the Commonwealth? 2827 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - No special Royal Commission was appointed by the Commonwealth Government. Mr. Paull, and Mr. Smith, an auditor, were appointed as " approved persons " under the Manufactures Encouragement Act. They have submitted a report, and that is the document which I intend to lay upon the table, and I shall move for its printing. 2827 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Does the Minister say that that report is not the same as the report of the Royal Commission to be presented to the State Government? 2827 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - It is not. 2827 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then has the honorable member a copy of that report? 2827 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I have. 2827 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then will the honorable member lay it upon the table of the House, as it is very important? 2827 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The report of the Royal Commission of New South Wales is a purely State matter, and, so far as I know, it is not usual to lay State documents on the table of this House. I could obtain a number of copies from the State Government for honorable members to see. 2827 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - I thought the honorable member promised the honorable member for. Nepean to lay that report on the table? 2827 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I was referring to a different report altogether. 2827 2827 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whether it is a fact that recently the Hunter River Meat Preserving Company wished to export 750 cases of meat at Newcastle? Whether the company delivered the usual notices, also the declaration as required by the Act, also deposited the fees at the Customs House ? Is it. true that there was no officer to inspect the meat on arrival at Newcastle, with the result that the steamer departed, and the meat was left in a truck on the wharf? If there is no inspector acting at Newcastle, will he see that one is appointed at once ? 2827 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - I am advised that the company in question desired to export 175 cases of canned meat. The company had not complied -yvith the requirements of inspection of the men at time of slaughter. That is probably the case. I shall have inquiry made as to the necessity for such an appointment and attendant expenditure. 2827 2827 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr CARTY SALMON asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - Whether, in view of the fact that Mr. C. A. Topp still holds his Commission to distribute Victoria into Federal Electorates, he will consider the advisability of using his abilities and experience in the' proposed redistribution of seats? Whether he will ascertain if Mr. C. A. Topp's proposed trip to Europe will interfere with the discharge of the duties under his Commission ? If not, is there any other reason for displacing Mr. Topp ? When is the report expected by the Minister? 2827 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - 1 to 3. In view of the fact that the report submitted may be either adopted or referred back to the Commissioners by Parliament to propose a fresh distribution it is highly inadvisable that any Commissioner should be absent until the redistribution is finally determined. It is not considered desirable to disturb the arrangements which I have already indicated. It is anticipated that the report will be submitted to Parliament for consideration early in the next session. 2828 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - The Minister has not answered the second question. 2828 2828 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Whether he will inform the House of the terms of the proposals made by the Oceanic Steamship Company, of San Francisco, for tha establishment of a service between America and Australia? Whether the Government is prepared to stipulate in any contract for such service that Brisbane, Sydney, and Melbourne will be Australian ports of call on both outward and inward voyages? 2828 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - The .answers 'to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The terms of the proposal referred to are - A service every 2S days between San Francisco and Sydney, by vessels of 6,000 tons gross register, calling at Honolulu and Pago Pagi, the time occupied each way to be 20 days, and the subsidy to be ^'1,500 per trip for a five years' contract. This is a matter which will be given full consideration in any negotiations for such a service. 2828 2828 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON asked the Prime Minister, u-pon notice - Whether he will grant a further opportunity this session (should private members' day be abolished forthwith) of discussing the report of the Royal Commission on Tasmanian Customs Leakage ? Owing to the present condition of the public finances of Tasmania, and in view of the said report, does not he think some action should bc taken during the present session to give effect to the recommendation of the said Commission ? 2828 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - I cannot promise to do so. I do not think further discussion of the report would affect the policy of the Government. 2828 2828 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr CARTY SALMON On a point of order, I desire to ask whether, when a member places upon the notice-paper a number of questions under the one heading, the Minister is in order in stating that he has answered the whole of the questions when he has not answered a distinct portion or paragraph contained in them? 2828 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER The Minister is at liberty to answer a question as he thinks proper. I have no control over the way in which he frames his replies. 2828 bill Bill returned from the Senate with an amendment. 2828 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers : - Bounty paid to Messrs. G and C. Hoskins, Lithgow, under the Manufactures Encouragement Act - Reports with reference to. Ordered to be printed. Public Service Act - Postmaster-General's Department - Papers relating to the appointment, on probation of J. H. A. Pike as Engineer Operator, Wireless Telegraph Station, Pennant Hills, New South Wales. Defence Act - Military Forces - Regulations Amended (Provisional) - No. 207 - Statutory Rules igir, No. 182. Financial and Allowance - No. igg - Statutory Rules ign, No. 183. No. 166- Statutory Rules igii, No. 184. 2828 budget In Committee of Sup-ply (Consideration resumed from 16th November, vide page. 2796), on- motion by Mr. Fisher - That the first item in the Estimates, under Division I., the Parliament, namely, "The President, £1,100," be agreed to. 2828 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I am in an amiable frame of mind this morning, and do not intend to say anything that will hurt the feelings of honorable members opposite. We all seem to be in a. rollicking mood after the moving events pf yesterday, and apparently there is no disposition to trouble about Budgets and such things as natijortal expenditure, which, after all, would seem to be only trifles light as air compared with what took place yesterday. However, we must come back to sober reason and look into the Budget, since it affects every man, woman, and child in the community to a very vital degree. I shall ask' honorable members this morning to consider one or two of its financial aspects, away from the heat of party conflict, and with a desire only to see exactly where we are going and whether it is not time to call a halt in the extravagant manner in which we are disposing of the national funds. I take it that when taxation is imposed the reason for it should be well established, but the outstanding feature of this Budget, in its accounts of last year at any rate, is that taxation has been imposed which was not needed, and taxes have been brought into the Treasury to be put into Trust Funds for use in years other than that in which they were raised. In that respect this Parliament is setting a precedent to all the Parliaments of Australia, and even, I think, of the world. This is the first time that I recollect taxation having been imposed in a time of rolling prosperity to meet the demands of the year, and the whole of it being diverted to years other than that in which it was raised. In other words, this Budget shows a surplus of _£2, 000,000 last year. We were previously told that land taxation was needed for purposes of revenue, and the Prime Minister altogether discarded the idea that he wanted to. impose it for penal purposes or for purposes of social experiment. He said, " I need the revenue," but the year's operations, show that he did not need it, nor did he use it, because that and a great deal more has been put into a trust fund and specially appropriated this year. In order that there may be no mistake about that matter, I have here the record of what the Prime Minister said when introducing the Land Tax Bill. The honorable member for Angas asked him why, since he did not expect much revenue from the Bill, he did not combine an acreage tax with a value tax, and to that the F'rime Minister replied - I .hope the honorable member is not under that delusion, because I do desire revenue, and I have never uttered a word to' the contrary. 'Honorable members will see that the taxation applies, not only to large estates, but to city ana town areas, and therefore could not be justified alone on the ground of breaking up large estates. There is the explicit statement of the Prime Minister, when introducing the land tax last year, that his revenue needed it. The result shows that he woefully, I had almost said wilfully, under-estimated his receipts for the year. It is about time to say something on this question of under-estimating revenue. It is just as criminal to underestimate your revenue intentionally for the purpose of imposing penal taxation as to over-estimate it in order to avoid taxation. The one is just as reprehensible as the other, yet this Government, in a time of rolling prosperity, imposed taxation unnecessarily. This is the first time in the history of any civilized Government that we have had a Government bringing down propositions for special taxation when the country has been on a boom tide of prosperity. It is the first time that a Government have brought down proposals for taxation to meet the ordinary needs of a normal year of expenditure. In that respect therefore the Government are creating precedents, and are being followed now, in New South Wales in particular, by a Government actuated by the same ideas. The Government there are bringing down taxation for the mere sake of putting on a tax, and not because they need the revenue, just as we do not need it here. They are imposing the tax with a penal object in view, in order to hit savagely at a section of the community, under cover of needing the revenue for the ordinary purposes of government. 2829 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford Are they not going to reduce fares and freights in New South Wales ? 2829 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Freight s and fares in booming, prosperous times are generally reduced without the imposition of extra taxation. What merit is there in im- . posing additional taxation in order to cut down charges and decrease the revenue in other respects? That is not statesmanship, but simply taking from one section of the community to give to another—th every essence of class Government. 2829 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - I thought that adjusting the incidence of taxation was statesmanship ! 2829 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It is the very perfection of statesmanship, so long as the taxation is fairly and equitably adjusted amongst all classes, and so long as the object is to make the principle of sacrifice apply to every individual in the community in proportion to his ability to pay it. That is the fundamental principle which ought to underlie all taxation. But is that the case here? 2829 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - It is the principle we are trying to carry out. 2829 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I quite believe it is the principle my honorable friends opposite are "trying " to carry out, but they are making a very clumsy mess of the work. 2829 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The reason the honorable member is declaiming is that the work is too effectively done. 2830 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald And the honorable member's party would not repeal the taxation! 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I should have thought that, after the tongue-wagging in which my honorable friends opposite have been engaged all the week, they would have been quite tired this morning, but here they are, as fresh as paint, notwithstanding what befel them yesterday. I repeat that this is the first time in the history of any country that I know of, when, at a period of booming prosperity, special taxation has been levied for the ordinary purposes of Government. Usually at such a time surpluses are supposed to be accumulating by reason of the buoyancy of the ordinary revenue; and it is the opportunity to reduce the charges on the people. Yet, in two or three of the States, as well as in the Commonwealth an d in the States where labour Governments are reigning—i t is supposed to be in acordance with their canons of taxation to place imposts on the people when prosperity is at its highest. We should remember that every pound we put into circulation now creates a vested interest for itself; and, later on,' when the revenues begin to decline, as they will do. in- the lean years, we shall have exhausted our reserves of taxation, and will find the vested interests the most difficult problem of all to deal with. In my judgment there is a very serious time ahead of the Commonwealth; and I say that in no Cassandra spirit. There is every indication that the years are beginning to turn, arid both the Prime Minister and myself regret the fact. 2830 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Cheer up ! 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It is not for us on this side to " cheer up " ; honorable members opposite may have occasion to "cheer up " themselves before this Parliament expires. The Government would not get through this year but for borrowing money - from previous years to pay present bills; they are drawing on their capital in a time of prosperity, and, with all the land taxation, they have to borrow ,£1,750,000 from last year to pay the bills of this year. If that happened in connexion with any outside business, the shareholders would ask whether it was not time to wind up or have different management. 2830 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - There was a " winding up " yesterday ! 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Quite right; though, happily, or unhappily, for us, it does not " wind up " the condition of affairs in this Parliament—the Labour party are here just as jaunty as ever! Let us hope that what has taken place will lead to a little sober reflection, so far as the finances of the Commonwealth are concerned, and cause the Government to look ahead of the immediate present to that inevitable time when there will be greater stringency in our revenue. But even if there be no greater stringency, and next year is an equally booming period, we must look for a certain deficit of ,£2,000,000. 2830 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Our statesmanship will get over all that ! 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Perhaps it w ill ; honorable members opposite may be contemplating more direct taxation in the shape of an income tax. Notwithstanding that Mr. McGowen is " making them sit up " in my own State to the tune of a .£750,000 Income Tax.. 2830 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - The honorable member will have his share of it. 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I think I shall be just out of it. 2830 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I have repeatedly called the honorable member for East Sydney to order;-but I shall not do so again; 2830 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - I do not see why I should be referred to in that way.- . 2830 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Will the .honorable member.-resume .his -seat?. . 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Nowj I subscribe entirety to the canons laid down by Mr. McGowen in .introducing his Budget. He made use of some admirable sentiments, and enunciated two . principles, the first of which is that no Government has a right to take from the people more than is required to govern the country. 2830 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - It comes in very handy this year ! 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not think so. If the Estimates were analyzed, it would be found that they are unduly inflated. Does the honorable member mean, for instance, to tell me that the Government are going to spend about £[4,500,000 on public works in the next six months ? 2830 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Is the honorable member quite sure that his principle is sound? 2830 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I think it is fairly sound. 2830 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - "Fairly?" 2831 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS There is no doubt about the " sound "—w e can all hear the honorable member for Parramatta. 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The Honorary Minister need not be insulting; he is somewhat like myself—whe n he tries to be humorous he becomes anything else. I do not claim any authorship for the principle, but merely quote it as one laid down by Mr. McGowen. The second principle is that no Government has a right to collect taxation unless it can be shown that necessity demands it. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Hear, hear ! 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Has necessity been shown for the increased taxation now being collected? I am aware that a brave effort in this direction is being made both by this Government and the Governments of the States where Labour rule obtains; but an analysis of the expenditure shows that they are creating artificial needs in order to justify the imposts on the people—tha t the money is not required for the ordinary purposes of government within the year. 2831 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Are the Army and Navy artificial needs? 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Where is the relevancy of that remark? Do the Army and the Navy represent the whole of the expenditure of the Government? 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - A good- deal of it ! 2831 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams A good deal too much of it ! 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The remark of the honorable member for Hindmarsh would be relevant or sensible only if it meant that the whole expenditure was represented hy the Army and Navy; and no one has suggested that the expenditure under these heads is too much. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - The honorable member for Franklin has said so. 2831 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams I do not say that it is too much. 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I shall leave that point, as honorable members opposite do not seem to care about it. I do say, however, that incorrect statements have been made in this House, and incorrect statements are being made to other Houses in Australia, for the purpose of justifying penal taxation, and for no other purpose. We are creating vested interests in out expenditure, which will push us further next year. As sure as we are living today, there are financial difficulties looming ahead, which we shall be unable to sur-mount without further taxation or the most drastic retrenchment next year. 2831 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The Government will not spend the money this year ! 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not see how they can spend £[4,500,000 in six months. So far as we know, the Government have never spent even £[2,000,000 in a similar period; and a great deal of the money we are now voting will fall back into the Treasury at the end of the year. It is not fair that the Estimates should be inflated on the one hand or depressed on the other. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - How can we have a deficit of £2,000,000? 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I say that a Treasurer who under-estimates his revenue to the extent of £[2,000,000, and on that estimate bases further taxation, ought not to hold his seat ten minutes in any civilized community. With the small population of Australia, it is a crime against the people of the country to wrongly under-estimate the revenue for the purpose of justifying further taxation. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Does the honorable member think that the Treasurer purposely under-estimated the revenue last year? 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - That he purposely did it? 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK If the honorable member, by putting words into my mouth, wishes me to indicate that the Prime Minister tried to delude the House, I say no. The honorable member can see only one thing, and that is always something ulterior. I am charging the Treasurer with culpable inability to size up the financial -affairs of the country. Does the honorable member understand that? That is different from imputing unworthy motives. 2831 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - The honorable member said that the Treasure: had done this purposely. 2831 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I say that the Treasurer who under-estimates his revenue to the extent of £[2,000,000, and on that estimate imposes further taxation, is not the man to hold the position of Treasurer in any country. It is just as bad to under-! estimate as to over-estimate revenue, especially when we run into big figures like these. 2831 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Does the honorable member not think that the Treasurer was nearer in his estimate as to the revenue from land tax than was any honorable member opposite? 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not know that that helps the honorable member. 2832 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Some honorable members estimated that revenue at £4,000,000. ^ 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Who said that? The honorable member might as well say that we estimated it at £[6,000,000 or £[7,000,000. So far as I recollect, it was estimated on this side of the House that the Land Tax would yield from £"2,000,000 to £[2.500,000. That estimate was not much more astray than was the estimate of the Treasurer. 2832 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - Only a million. 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The Treasurer's estimate was £[500,000 below the actual receipts. I shall not deal further with that point, but I wish to make it clear that it is time we stopped under-estimating our revenues to the scandalous extent that we have been doing of recent years, and that it is more than ever necessary that we should do so now that we are making that underestimate of revenue a basis for wringing further taxes out of the people. I invite the attention of honorable members to the very serious fact that the taxation of this country during the last ten years has gone up enormously. In 1901-2 Commonwealth taxation amounted to £[2 5s. 5fd. per head — I am referring to taxation alone, not to services or charges—whereas , according to the Estimates it will amount to £[3 9s. 1d . per head for 1911-12, or an increase of £[1 3s. 8d. per head in respect of every man, woman, and child in the Commonwealth. If we add to that the increase of State taxation to the tune of 6s. per head, we find that in ten years our taxation has increased by practically 30s. per head. 2832 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Will the honorable member compare that taxation with the taxation per head of other countries? 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I shall be glad to do so. As a matter of fact, our taxation is far heavier than that of other countries. I had by me some figures dealing with this very matter, given the other day by Mr. David Fell. Mr. Fell is a competent accountant, and a friendly one, so far as my honorable friends opposite are concerned, and he showed that our taxation was much heavier than that of the Old Country, Germany, and nearly every .European country. 2832 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - - Does the honorable member refer to the taxation of the Commonwealth ? 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK If we take the Commonwealth as well as the State taxation, unquestionably we are a long way ahead of many other parts of the world. 2832 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Not if we add to the Imperial taxation the local government taxation. 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK This increase of taxation to the extent of .30s. per head means an increase of £[7 10s. per family. My figures do not include local government taxation. 2832 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - But the State Governments do what the local governing bodies, do in England. Does not the honorable member know that? 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not. I know that the State Governments carry out some of the functions which the county councils do in the Old Country, but to only a small extent. Even if he includes local taxation in the taxation of -the Old Country, the honorable member will find that our taxation is quite as high as that of Great Britain. The honorable member is making these statements without knowing what he is talking about. 2832 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - I know as much about the matter as the honorable member does, but I thought we desired to get at the truth. 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK So we do, and the truth is that in respect of State and Federal taxation we are paying £[1 9s. 8d. per head more than we did ten years ago. 2832 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Would not the honorable member compare the wealth production of to-day, per head of the population, with that of ten years ago? 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I leave it to the honorable member to put that matter before the working men of South Sydney. Let him tell them that, although they are paying by way of taxation £[7 ios. per family more than they were ten years ago, they must think of the wealth they are rolling in now as compared with the. wealth of those days. In five years, according to Mr. Nash; the cost of governing Australia has increased by over £[20,000,000. In 1906-7 it cost £[36,250,857 to govern Australia 2832 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - That includes the railways. 2832 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It includes everything. The cost in 1906-7 was £[36,250,857, whereas this year it amounts to £[56,006,021, an increase of practically £[20,000,000. In other words, there has been an increase of 55 per cent, in five years, and the population during that time has increased by only 10\ per cent. I do not wish to draw a wrong inference from these figures. I do not mean to suggest that it is costing 55 per cent, more to govern this country than it did five years ago. A great part of this increase is due to the increased prosperity of the country, and some of it to increase of population. But we have the significant fact that the expenditure is equal to the revenues. That is the ugly fact we have to face. While we are spending 55 per cent, more than we did five years ago, we are spending more this year in almost every State than we are raising; and during this five years' period, the increase of population has 'amounted to only ioj- per cent. I am able now to give the honorable member for Hindmarsh the figures relating to tiie taxation of other countries, to which I referred a few moments ago. Here is what Mr. Fell said the other day, and it is very interesting as bearing on this question— As regards taxation, I have just received statistics regarding the taxation in the various States. In New South Wales the taxation per head is stated at ^5 14s. 4d., including Federal Customs and Excise. Mr. CANN.—Doe s that include water and sewerage rates? Mr. FELL.—It includes every form of taxation, even the land tax. Germany is taxed to the extent of £1 2s. 3d. per head; the United States £1 8s. per head. An HONORABLE MEMBER.—Wha t does that include? Mr. FELL.—That includes all internal revenue. Mr. CANN.—Bu t not local government taxation Mr. FELL.—It includes what is known as municipal taxStion. Mr. MCGOWEN.—Th e honorable member is aware that the railways do not belong to the Government! Mr. FELL.— I am aware, of that. This taxation per head has nothing to do with business concerns, but includes everything in the form of taxation so far as I know. The United States, including a land tax of 6s. 4d. per head, is taxed to the extent of £1 8s. 8d. per head; France ,£3 2s. fa., which is fairly high; the United Kingdom, ^3 16s. 6d.; and Canada £2 7s. 8d. per bead. 2833 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - - Does the honorable member think that those figures include the cost of local government in England? 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I am inclined to think that they do not include some forms of local government. I looked up the matter some time ago, and quoted in this House figures showing that even including local government, our taxation is some shillings per head more than is that of the Old Country. I do not pretend to make any adjustment. I merely quote' these as the figures of a critic friendly to this Government, and they may be taken for what they are worth. I shall establish my point if I ask honorable members to look into this question of the increased cost of government. I am not talking now of any of my honorable friends' Socialistic ventures. I am talking of taxation pure and simple, which has in Australia increased in ten years, as I have said,' to the extent of £[1 9s. 8d. per head. That is a very serious matter for the working men and women of Australia, who have to pay this taxation, and who are already beginning to ask why the cost of everything they eat and drink and use is increasing. 2833 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Would the honorable member be in favour of reducing the State Parliaments ? 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I s the honorable member anxious to abolish them? 2833 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - I merely desire to know what method of adjustment the honorable member has in mind. 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I suggest reasonable, economical, and efficient government instead of wild-cat Socialistic government. 2833 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Go into details. 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The details show that, in every country Socialism spells increased taxation. 2833 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas And increased comfort. 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I have often, heard my honorable friend argue in this House that, as taxation is placed on the people, so their comfort is decreased. 2833 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Did I say that of the land tax? 2833 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK May I remind my honorable friend that, of the increased taxation to which I have referred, only 6s. per head represents the land tax. I have heard him say many times in this House that by taxing the people we hinder and injure rather than help them. He tells now a very different tale. Taxation is going up by leaps and bounds, yet we are already in financial difficulties. In these rolling times, we are borrowing money to pay our way in respect of the present year. In other words, we are using money that we have been able to save up by means of special taxation. There is no danger of the Government making savings from their ordinary revenues. They impose extra taxes and secure a surplus; and, out of last year's surplus, we are paying our way this year. If the Estimates in respect of the current financial year are realized, we shall be up against a deficit of ,£2,000,000. It will not work out that way, because the Estimates are inflated, and the money will not be spent. 2834 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - We have imposed taxation to save us from borrowing for a navy. 2834 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK To save my honorable friends from acting on business principles in transacting the country's business. The naval expenditure alone does not account for all the inflation. My duty has been done in pointing out that this is the result of Socialistic financing. 2834 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - The honorable member thinks that we should have borrowed to provide the Navy, instead of imposing a land tax. 2834 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK —That would have been too sensible a procedure for this Government. 'Every Government in the world borrows for reproductive works and works of a permanent character. Great Britain provides for new naval bases, large docks, and works of that character, not out of revenue, but out of loan money. My honorable friends are not following precedents. They are making them. But the people are already beginning to wonder why so much taxation is needed, and the Labour party will have short shrift when the truth becomes known. At present honorable members opposite are living a merry life, and recklessly spending millions obtained by taxation. I wish to say a word or two regarding the Department of the Postmaster-General, which is seething with discontent. Strong feeling .is rife there; public services are being curtailed, mail deliveries and other privileges are being taken from the public, but the more we spend on the Department, the less efficient it seems to be. It is time that the matter was looked into. This year we shall incur a deficit in connexion with the Department of ^2,000,000, or, deducting a year's interest, £[1,750,000. The Department has been a very costly one, and has not paid its way since it was taken over by the Commonwealth. Although we are told that for eleven years the receipts exceeded the expenditure by £[1,797,000, the statement is misleading. A private company might just as well say that, putting out of account wages and charges, its. operations showed a profit. The Department of the Postmaster-General' shows a profit by putting aside interest charges on expenditure upon buildings and plant and new capital. In eleven years we have expended on the Department £[4,753,000, which was not taken into account in making the statement that the receipts have exceeded the expenditure by £[1,797,000. Actually the expenditure has exceeded the receipts by £[2,956,000, or, adding interest for each year, by £[4,873,000. If we add also the £[600,000 to be put into a trust account this year for expenditure on new works, the deficit can be set down as £[5,500,000. In my judgment, the cause of the trouble is poor management, and the sooner the muddle is ended the better it will be for all concerned. I should now like to say something on the subject of management, but it may be better to defer it until we are dealing with definite proposals. Certain honorable members opposite, and some on- this side, have made a great fuss in the belief that the States which they represent do not receive as much expenditure as they should get. We thought that we should have done with State feeling under Federation, but it still obtrudes itself, and we hear talk of a Country party, being formed to see that the country districts get their fair share of expenditure.' To make a fair comparison, it would not be right to take only one Department. The comparison I am going to make includes the whole expenditure of the Commonwealth for the year in each State. According to the figures on page 55 of the Budget papers,, the expenditure per head in New South Wales last year was £[1 os. 3*Jd., in Victoria. 18s. ito^d., and in Queensland £[1 5s. 6jd. What' does the honorable member for Maranoa say to that ? Then Western Australia got £[1 ns. ojd. per head, South- Australia 19s. 9^d., and Tasmania, whence comes the honorable member for Franklin, £[1 os. 8£d. Apparently the States whose representatives are most clamant get the largest expenditure per head. These figures should prove a useful corrective to some of the statements that we hear.' While New South Wales receives a shilling' per head less "than the average expenditure of the Commonwealth, it contributes between 2 and 3 per cent, more revenue than the average contribution of any other State, with the. exception of Western Australia The conditions of life in the States vary, and their requirements vary, as does also their capacity to contribute revenue. It is this diversity which provides the vitality and virility of our Federation, and without differences in requirements and production we should not have the prosperity which makes Federation a success. Regarding Defence, I have no general criticism to offer. As I have said before, I shall leave nearly all details alone so long as I find the Government contributing handsomely to the defences of the country, although the Labour party's policy is contrary to that of its confreres in the other parts of the world. 2835 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - - Is not defence the cause of our increased expenditure? 2835 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Even for defence money could be provided differently, and in a more business-like way. The outstandking fact is that we are contributing this year for. defence an amount which places us, I think, third in the entire world. The vote works out this year at 21s. id. per head, and there are no countries in the world, except Great Britain and France, with a higher expenditure on defence. From my point of view, having 'regard to the, menace that surrounds . us, that is a very satisfactory feature. ; .1 only.,'hope that honorable members opposite will 'continue in this, good .way. If they dp, '.and carry out the schemes 'which' have .been sketched for them,'and the details of which they are filling in very fully, they' will hear no more adverse criticism from me. There are, however, one or two points on which I should like to help them by offer ing detailed criticism, because I think there is a real danger ahead of the compulsory training scheme. In the first place, I must refer to the pay of the area officers, already alluded to by the honorable member for Darling Downs. According to Lord Kitchener, this matter is the key of the whole position. He lays it down that the Citizen Forces will depend for their military proficiency entirely upon the efforts of the area ofiicers. So important does he consider it that he proceeds to emphasize it in several paragraphs in these words— In this connexion, may I repeat that the whole success of the Citizen Forces depends upon the thoroughness and amount of the home training under the area officer In that clause are two suggestions—on e concerning the area officer, the other concerning home trainng. The '.Government are paying the area officer ^"150 a year to do work which, if well done, is worth £500 a year. That is the plain English of the situation. They are drawing the area officers from militia men, in many cases young lieutenants, who are doing their best, but who are not well enough equipped for the important work of area commands. I speak in no spirit of derogation of these men, who are doing their very utmost, but you cannot expect the best available military talent in the world for a paltry .£150 a year. It is sweating the job, and sweating of the most dangerous kind. Remember that the system of universal compulsory training is going to be marred or made in the next five years. Before the staff corps can come from the Military College, the- efficiency and tone of the Forces will have been determined. It is, therefore, of the utmost consequence that we should have in the area officers men capable and competent for all the supremely important and multifarious duties which have been placed upon them. To place the duties on young officers and others in the militia ranks is most unfair to them and to the scheme itself. The Labour Government, who believe in high salaries) are paying,£[150 a year to a man who,-if he does his work' competently, ought to be getting at least. ,£500. If I had been carrying' out that scheme,. I should have .made a definite, appointment in each case, for five years, fixed the salary at from £400. to .£500 a' year, and obtained the most competent men 1 could get from anywhere. If they are available in Australia, all right, and a good many of them are here, but we. are not tempting the. best men here into these positions. They cannot take them. ' It means an immense sacrifice for them'. I verily believe that the Government are getting more than they are paying- for, but they are not doing the best for the trainees bv the appointment of area officers at £15° a yeai. Another point in connexion with defence concerns the training. I wish again to emphasize the fact that the Government are not carrying out Lord Kitchener's scheme. There is no provision for home training in their scheme, so far as I can find out. It is like the minimum wage. The Government have made the minimum training the maximum.. It is all the training these men will get, and it is not enough. The amount of training which was put into the Act, and which is being given, will not make the trainees' soldiers ready to meet a modern enemy. 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - lt is not a bad beginning. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The Government are endangering the whole scheme by the way they are setting it off. In one part of his report Lord Kitchener says the area officers are the key to the whole position, and in another he calls them the foundation of all success. Yet the Government, by not giving an adequate salary, are not getting the best men available to do the work as contemplated by Lord Kitchener. In the next five years the tone of the whole force will be set, and at the end of that time the Government will have to begin all over again to get a different state of affairs into the service. 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Do not be too pessimistic. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It is really too bad when one sees a Labour Government sweating these positions. My honorable friend has, of course, shown in the Postal Department and elsewhere that he does not believe in paying good wages. That is only for the platform. He does not carry out his old-time professions, and he knows it. 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Does the honorable member carry out his? 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not pretend to carry them all out. I do not pose on the platform, as the honorable member does, as the only friend of the working man. I am asking him to live up to his professions, and pay the men doing the work in these areas a salary commensurate with the task that has been given them to perform. 2836 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster And then be cursed for running the country into debt. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Cursed for getting efficiency into the military service? That comes well from an honorable member who has been worrying his life out for years because of the inefficiency that prevails in another Department. Why should he condemn another honorable member for standing up for just a little efficiency in the Defence Department? The honorable member should not be so inconsistent. The matter is far too important to trifle over. In addition to well-paid area officers, there ought to be some more incentive to home training, without which the present training will not turn out soldiers efficiently equipped for service. Lord Kitchener says that everything depends upon .the home training in connexion with his scheme. The Government are departing from the scheme in that respect. Instead of home training continuously the year round, and area officers paid to devote their whole energies to their areas, 'and to bring about home training by making it attractive in every way, the Government have limited the amount of training in the Act, and made the minimum the maximum. I hope to see some improvement in both1 these matters before long. It would be far better if the Government had started boldly, at the first, obtained area officers competent to perform all the duties laid upon them, and given them at least .£400 or £500 a year to look well after the area commands. 2836 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr Palmer - What is involved in the home training? 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Under Lord Kitchener's scheme, it was intended to be voluntary training, and the compulsory training was to test the value of the voluntary training. Instead of that, the Government have given more compulsory training than Lord Kitchener said was requisite; but, on the other hand, they are. hot providing for home training, upon which Lord Kitchener relied for efficiency. I have never seen a greater volte face than the turn-over in the caucus concerning the site for the Naval College. It is marvellous how the caucus could twist itself inside and out again in about three days. 2836 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - It was never discussed in the caucus. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK —That does not much alter what I say. The party may not have discussed it collectively in caucus, but they have made the Prime Minister go back on everything that four of his Ministers said only last week. If it has not been done in caucus, it is the more reprehensible. One could understand the party insisting on a change of that sort, but if the party did not do it, who caused the change of front ? 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Must we not listen to debates in this House? The charge made against us by the Opposition is that we will not listen to discussions. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Has the change been made in consequence of discussion in this House? 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - It may be so. 2836 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The honorable member knows very well that it was not. 2836 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - How does the honorable member know ? 2837 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not pretend to read the honorable member's thoughts, or the thoughts of the Caucus, but I am assured by a member of the Caucus that the matter was never before it. It therefore becomes the more inexplicable and mysterious. Last week the Minster of Home Affairs said that the site near Sydney was a beautiful site. This is the report— I do not think the people of Australia will complain at all when we get such a beautiful site as that we are endeavouring to secure at a reasonable price. Mr. PACE.—Wher e is the site? Mr. O'MALLEY.—It is a lovely site within a few miles of Sydney. Mr. PACE.—It ought 'to be a long way from a town. Mr. O'MALLEY.—It is some little distance from Sydney. We ought to meet the people of New South Wales in this matter. Mr. PAGE.—That is what the Minister has been doing. Mr. O'MALLEY.— I fail to see why any animosity should be displayed towards New South Wales, and I am sorry to find that this is not yet really a national Parliament. According to the Minister, animosity was displayed in this matter towards New South Wales. In other words, the " K in g " gave his benediction and blessing to the site as a most admirable one. He also said a few other things not recorded in Hansard about the financial side of the matter, indicating that the Government would make a lot of money out of a site so near to Sydney; but that is all by the way. After the Minister of Home Affairs came the Postmaster-General, who, in the absence of other Ministers, I presume, seemed to be in charge of the Committee. This is what he said about the selection of the site near Sydney— The Government, under the advice of, I may "be pardoned for saying, the most distinguished Minister of Defence who has occupied that position in the Commonwealth, propose to establish the College at the site which has been chosen. The Postmaster-General there tells us that the best of all Ministers in the Commonwealth has advised the choice of this site near Sydney. If there is a Minister in the Cabinet • who ought to advise on a matter of this sort, it is the Minister in charge of Defence; and we are told by the Postmaster-General that this -immaculate .and best of all Ministers has advised a site at Burraneer Bay. Later on, the Post-master-General said— This is an urgent matter recommended by the distinguished Naval officer who was brought from the Old Country to advise the Commonwealth Government in the matter of naval defence, and are we to refuse the generous offer of the subscribers to the Dreadnought fund because the proposed Naval College is not to be established in Federal, Territory ? Clearly, therefore, at that time, the Postmaster-General had practically decided in his own mind that the site was not to be on Federal Territory; and he asked, "Are we to turn this money down which has been so generously subscribed, of course, with a condition? " 2837 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - There is a great deal of patriotism about a condition like that. 2837 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Never mind that point—tha t is quite another consideration, I admit. Summing up the position, the Postmaster-General said— The Minister, to the best of my knowledge and belief, appointed a Committee to select the most suitable site on which to establish a Naval College to train the youth of Australia, who are ultimately to be drafted into the Australian Navy. The Committee selected a site, the sum of £43,000 was made available, and we now submit an item to give effect to the proposal in order that we may have the officers and men necessary for our Navy. Here the Minister says that the Committee specially appointed had chosen the site near Sydney, and that money had been subscribed for the purpose. The Minister of Trade and Customs, when the honorable member for Darling Downs was speaking, interjected that Captain Chambers had recommended the site near Sydney for the Naval College; and the Minister of Defence, and several other Ministers, defended the proposal. After four Ministers had declared that to be the best site, we find them, in three days, showing a complete reversal. Now we are told that the College is not to be placed where the experts said it should be, but must be in Federal Territory. On whose advice or authority? What later authority has come into the arrangement? I think we are entitled to ask these questions. I should like to go a little further and say that, before I left office I had this matter specially inquired into. When the offer of the Lord Mayor of Sydney was made, it was accepted conditionally on the best site being available near Sydney. Commander Pethebridge, as good a man as we could get, made investigation; and I requested Admiral Poore also to make inquiries. The latter decided, without hesitation, that of all sites Middle Head was the best. All these facts are set forth in the papers which I ask the Minister of Defence to produce, so that honorable members may know exactly what has taken place. 'We have it that two admirals decided that Middle Head was the best site for a Naval College, "for amongst other reasons, that it is near Garden Island, where we have a dockyard and engineering and construction works, which are invaluable in the training of cadets. However, nothing was done; and then came Captain Chambers, a comparatively young man from Home, and of whom I have never heard as a very distinguished Naval official. I do not desire to say a word against Captain Chambers, who, I dare say, is an excellent man. In my judgment, however, the opinions of Admiral Henderson and of Admiral Poore are at least equal to that of Captain Chambers. However, Captain Chambers, before he had been, as it were, in the country ten minutes, condemned the Middle Head site as too near Sydney. I may say that I asked Admiral Poore to inquire into that point particularly, and, while he. admitted that it would be preferable if the College were a little further away, he regarded it as a small disadvantage which could easily be balanced by the discipline of the College. 2838 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It is a pity that there is not a Minister in the House to pay the Deputy Leader of the Opposition the compliment of listening to him. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It does not make the slightest difference to me. 2838 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I should like the public to know that there is not a Minister here to listen to the address of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I suppose it does not matter, seeing that the question is merely that of- the naval defences of the country. 2838 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - The public ought to know that the honorable member for Parkes is deliberately making a misstatement. 2838 KTU 0 0 SMITH, William Henry Laird Mr LAIRD SMIH The Honorary Minister who represents the Minister of Defence has been here all the morning. 2838 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - There is not a responsible Minister present. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I wish to know what mysterious twistings and turnings are going on in this matter. The public has a right to know. If we are to depend on the last words of the latest expert, I have not the slightest doubt that we could get one from- the Old Country to say that Captain Chambers was all wrong, just as Captain Chambers said that Admiral Poore was all wrong. 2838 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Captain Chambers' opinion fitted in with Labour desires. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Indeed ! As to the objection that the site at Middle Head is too near town, what do we find Lord Kitchener recommending in regard to the Military College? He does not say that that College should be placed in the bush, but that it should be at the Federal Capital, which, we hope, is going to. be a populous centre in the future. In my judgment naval and military cadets ought to be able to live near a large town just as other citizens have to do. If the Spartan discipline of such a college cannot overcome the disadvantage of the proximity to town, it is a poor look out for us all. At any rate, nearly two years ago Middle Head was recommended as the best site, and, subsequently, after an expert inquiry, Burraneer Bay was selected. Three Ministers in this .House support the' Minister of Defence in that suggestion; and yet now, without rhyme oi reason, or any explanation whatever, we are told that the College ought not to be on the site recommended by experts, but on Federal Territory. 2838 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - I suppose the Government have come to the conclusion that Federal concerns ought to be on Federal Territory. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Then " political and not naval considerations ought, in the honorable member's opinion, to determine this matter? At Jervis'Bay there are no construction or engineering works; and for this part of the training the cadets will have to be taken to.-Melbourne or Sydney. Simply on the advice of somebody in the Caucus, I presume—o or on the advice of some " spook "—the site is changed. 2838 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - It is the last straw to suggest that Deakin's " spook " has anything to do with it. 2838 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr Deakin The Honorary Minister always seems to be seeking advertisement in a despicable way. 2838 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK A s to suggestions that there is a strong desire on the part of honorable members on this side to supplant the present Government, I. am afraid that there would be such a " mess " to clean up as to make it extremely unlikely, for any one to hanker after the .job. _ By that" I must explain I mean nothing more than . reckless government. I have already pointed , out that on the basis of the Estimates there will have to be faced next year a deficit of ;£[2,000,000; and anybody can see what is coming. Nobody, therefore, need covet the job of correcting the mistakes, inflation, and recklessness of the various Labour Ministries of Australia. It is due to this House that the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, or the Prime Minister himself, should explain why the advice of expert Admirals is being slighted—wh y the advice of the special expert imported is being deliberately set aside in favour of a site said not to be the best. It is obligatory on the Government to explain why this sudden change has taken place in the course of three or four days. We ought to know whether our future Navy is to be shaped by political rather than by naval considerations, because this is a blow, it seems to me, at the future efficiency and strength of the Naval Forces of Australia. In these Estimates, I find that the Northern Territory this year takes from our revenues £411,060, and that there will be on the year's transactions a deficit of £[345,000 in respect of it. We are waiting for some policy of development. We have had this legacy passed over tr> us now for eighteen months, and yet we do not know what we are going to do with it. We have not begun, save in a fragmentary way, to deal with this very serious problem that we have taken over from South Australia. There are proposals for the appointment of Professor Baldwin Spencer, and for the expenditure of a little more money on the investigation of tropical diseases, but we have not yet any territorial policy put before us by the Government. I do not wish to be unreasonable. I know that this is a gigantic work, that its proportions are nothing less than Titanic; but for that very reason we should have from the Ministry a full statement as to what is in their minds regarding it. Surely this is not a party question. The Minister appeals to the House for suggestions. Has he none to offer?-He is placed specially to investigate this problem, yet all we have had so far from him is' a' piteous appeal to the Opposition to give him suggestions.' It is time .the Minister gave the Committee the benefit of any, proposals he has in his mind. So far as I can see, the £[25,000 or ,£[26,000 on these Estimates for the opening, up of the Northern Territory is a mere bagatelle-compared with what will be required for an adequate" policy of development. When the Government have a proposition on which they are losing £[345,000 a year, they are only trifling with it in making proposals for tie expenditure of about £[26,000 a year to convert that debit into a surplus. 2839 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - I thought that the honorable member said just now that we were spending too much money. 2839 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The Government are, in some respects; but this is not one of them. Wise expenditure here is simply investment. They will have to spend a great deal more in connexion with the Northern Territory, and the more lavish they make their expenditure on right and reproductive lines in the Territory the better. But we have no indication of any adequate policy maturing in the minds o'f Ministers to make this a reasonably paying proposition. 2839 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The Northern Territory will be a financial sink whatever party is in power. 2839 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK If it is to be a sink into which we shall keep pouring our money we ought to be made aware of that fact, so that we may take steps to minimize the loss. My own impression is, however, that whilst the Territory is a white man's burden, white men will be able to shoulder it, and that it can be improved by a reasonable policy of development. Without going into details, so far as I can see, the one outstanding requirement of the Territory is facilities. It needs railway facilities first of all, then roads and bridges and settlement. We shall have to take the "bloated squatter" up there, and the sooner the better. 2839 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - He Has had every chance of going there, but has never availed himself of it. 2839 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Because the land has not been opened up by railways. 2839 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Even land at is. a mile has not tempted him. 2839 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It takes a man about a fortnight to travel from the nearest railway to a station in the Territory, and I believe that the cost of carrying supplies' to many of the stations there ranges from £[20 to ^30 per ton. It is not the 'shilling per mile in respect of the land, but the cost of transport, that is the problem. We are confronted there with the problem of facilities and of climate. I believe a modification of the climate will come in time, but the two requirements are men who will raise stock there,' and railways, roads, and bridges to enable that stock to be taken to market. I should think that vvith our rolling seasons now is the time to begin a movement in that direction. If it be not, what are we going to do when the bad years come? They will be on us, it appears to me, before we have sketched for us any adequate policy for the development of the Territory. We need something more than a policy of detail regarding the appointment of an officer or of a medical man to investigate tropical diseases. We need a broad and complete plan of territorial development. 2840 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Does not the honorable member know that the Minister has promised a statement of policy when we reach the Estimates relating to his Department? 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not; I know that he has promised to make a statement, and I think if he had made it during this debate he would have saved a great deal of discussion later on. The Government will find that keeping back these explanations until we reach the items in the Estimates relating to them will probably cost them days of discussion. The taxpayers have a right to know what is being done to alter the existing state of affairs in regard to the Territory. This year the bounties are costing us ,£703,000. Inquiries are being made with regard to the sugar industry, and very properly so. It is time, now that a policy has been effected up there, to know exactly . where and how we stand with regard to the .continuation of the bounty. I wish now tb refer to the question of old-age pensions. For a long time I have felt that our scheme is upon a wrong footing. Old-age pensions should be lifted out of the charitable rut in which they are running. The taint of pauperism and charity should be entirely eliminated from them. Moreover the Act as administered is harsh arid irksome in every way. All sorts of inquisitorial inquiries are being made before a man is granted a pension, and the sooner that kind of thing is done away with the better. 2840 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Why did not the honorable member's Government alter it? 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Is that an answer to my complaint? 2840 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - It only shows how insincere is the honorable member, since he was a member of a Government that could have altered it. 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK If it does, then the present Administration must be doubly insincere, since they are .doing nothing in double the time. 2840 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Is that an answer to my interjection? 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK It is a perfect answer. If I arm inconsistent because .1 have been unable to overturn the existing Old-age Pensions Act, the present- Administration must be doubly inconsistent since, although they have the party behind them and the power- to do it, they are doing nothing. 2840 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - The position is better by a long way than it was before. 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I am not going to quarrel with the honorable member on that point. My complaint is that the Act itself is wrong in man) ways. 2840 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Does the honorable member say that every one should get a pension, irrespective of what he possesses? 2840 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK Yes . I think the system should be upon an insurance basis. It should be an insurance and not a pension. It cannot be justified in equity that a man who has been thrifty all his life, and saved enough to buy a house, .should have to sell that house in his old age in order to secure a pension; while another man who has lived better than he has, and has not practised thrift as the other has, can secure a pension without difficulty. Some of the provisions of the Act need attention. For instance, the provision which joins together the private income of man and wife is working very harshly. I know of two men who have been separated from their wives for about thirty years, and cannot obtain an old-age pension. One of them is seventy years of age, but cannot get a pension because his wife, from whom he has been separated for thirty years, and who is in some other part of the world, is supposed, to have a little money. Such a provision needs to be modified. We ought certainly to have some standard of character as a pension basis, but under this Bill it seems to me there is no such thing as forgiveness. If a man happens to have separated from his wife thirty years ago, then there is no forgiveness for him—i f his wife happens to have a little money he cannot get a pension, and vice versa. The more I think of it the more convinced I am that we must come ultimately to a form of national insurance which will give every man—the millionaire as well as the poor man who has subscribed to his own insurance fund the right to receive that insurance, without taint of pauperism or charity, in his old age. That is the scheme which commends itself to my mind. 2841 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - If the honorable member had that scheme, would he repeal the Old-age Pensions Act? 2841 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK There would be no need for the Old-age Pensions Act if there were in operation a scheme such as I have in mind. Of course, I would not repeal the Act until something better could be put in its place. What is the relevancy of the interjection? Does the honorable member wish to make political capital of the poor old-age pensioners? That is a contemptible thing to do. But whenever any humanitarian question is debated here, that attempt is made by those on the other side. The Government will have my hearty support for any scheme to remove the taint of charity and pauperism from old-age pensions. 2841 KXK Gwydir 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER . - I shall not occupy time with a criticism of the Budget such as that of the honorable member for Parramatta and others, but I wish to refer to a matter upon which it is necessary to speak at this juncture. The Postmaster-General, in giving what was alleged to be a reply to certain statements by me, made misleading remarks regarding the work of a branch of his Department. He wished the House to believe that the main recommendations of the Postal Commission were without justification, and emphasized the statement that the service is well treated. I admit that since pressure was brought to bear, it is better treated than it was formerly. The honorable gentleman also desired to prejudice the telegraphists at Sydney, and the honorable member for Franklin, in his usual confident and cock-sure manner, interjected that I was doing those officers no good. The Minister tried to show the House that these men are not giving to the Commonwealth a service proportionate to that given by telegraphists in other countries, and to do so applied the test of averages, which is always delusive and deceptive. He stated that the men do not operate at a rate exceeding twelve words a minute. Whenever an innovation is tried in the Department, those responsible begin to blunder and bustle about, until they do not know what they are doing. The Minister has put on one side a system introduced by the Public Service Commissioner, the wonderful organizer who has brought the Department to the pass in which it is to-day. Had not his scheme been discarded there would have been trouble such as I do not wish to see in Australia. No doubt, the Public Service Commissioner is the source from which the Minister got the information that the men do not work at a rate exceeding twelve words a minute, because he is a past-master in the application of averages. It may be news to the Committee that only recently in London, when picked telegraphists were employed on a quad, line, having been told off to do certain work, their average was 'only 1,3.7 words per minute. They were picked and specially qualified men. Regarding the work of the New South Wales telegraphists, we had no information as to the character of the lines on which they were working, or the qualifications of those with whom they were working. 2841 JX9 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer I mentioned the lines on which the men were working, and the dates on which the work was done. 2841 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER There was no information as to the condition of the lines. 2841 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Surely the honorable member does not dispute the correctness of official figures? 2841 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I am not disputing that. What I object to is the use of those figures to try to prove that the men are not giving a fair return for the payments which they receive. The figures were used merely as a piece of bluff. 2841 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The statements I made ' were based on facts. 2841 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The richest thing I have read for a long time was the report of the Minister's interview with the telegraphists, when he said that he would not be bluffed. 2841 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Was the honorable member there? 2841 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I have read the newspaper report, which has not been contradicted. The abolition of proportional grading seems likely to prove a bigger curse even than the systems which formerly prevailed, because of the inability of the man at the head of affairs to understand the needs of the Department, and to apportion its work so as to get the hest results. Men who are supposed to work broken shifts have been working from 8.30 a.m. to 3 p.m., and from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. overtime twice a week, and from 3 p.m. to 8.15 p.m. and on to midnight, two or three times a week. 2842 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - Only a small percentage of the men. 2842 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER No , a very large percentage. A change of system was made without understanding the business to be done. On the 2nd November, the Minister intervened, and set aside for the moment the Public Service Commissioner's great scheme, which was paying an honour to that officer. Overtime has been worked by every staff since. Seventy-two men more than the schemes of the Public Service Commissioner provided for have been kept past 8 p.m., and some of them to midnight, although they should have gone off at 8 p.m. There have been rosters every day at 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Some men are working from 9.15 till 12.30, and others from 3 to 6.15. Most of the thirty-six who should go off according to the broken time arrangement have got away only at the sacrifice of public business. 2842 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The honorable member seems pretty well acquainted with what is going on in the office. 2842 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER It is a good thing that some one is acquainted with what is going on, so that the men's case may be properly stated in Parliament. Evidently, when the Postmaster-General made his speech he thought that no- one was acquainted with the true position. He failed to remember that the test of telegraphists in the Commonwealth is 25, 28, and 30 words per minute. A telegraphist is not often called on to work up to his top speed, and no man could work at that speed always, nor would any man be expected to do so. But men are expected to be able to work at that speed when the public business requires it. To say that these officers are getting a better deal now than they got previously is misleading. We alf know what the condition of the lines in New South Wales has been. I know they are not yet like the lines in the Old Country, nor are they working with the ease and regularity of a well-developed and complete system. I am aware that there are faults and drawbacks in a country of such vast area as ours, making the work of the telegraphist more arduous than it would be in other countries. I know also, that, if the operator at one end of the wire cannot go beyond twenty words a minute, because he is not an expert telegraphist, the man at the other end of the wire—eve n though he may be albe to take forty words a minute —canno t exceed the average of the first man. The proportion of words sent per minute is governed by the condition of the lines on the one hand, and by the expertness of the officer who is transmitting or receiving, as the case may be. I would point out to the Minister that he will not get the best out of any men by misrepresenting their position. Whether they are in Government or private employment, no men will do their best work if only half the facts are given, or if it is made out that, they are working only three hours and some minutes instead of six hours. As soon as it is frankly admitted that they are working overtime, that they have to work up to. midnight, that they have rosters for evening and night duty in order that men may be allotted to carry on the public business i.n hours which are not provided for even in the new scheme of the Public Service Commissioner, or in any suggestion that has been made since, then the House will be seized of the f u l l position, and will be able to judge more leniently, at any rate, what services are being demanded under an incomplete system. The system will never become what it ought to be unless we get some other means of devising what is a fair and reasonable duty to be expected from the men, and have it fixed by experts who understand the business. 2842 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWilliams - How many hours did the honorable member say they were working? 2842 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I have given the times. I cannot give the hours each man is working, but some men are working from 3 to 8.15 p.m., and on to midnight, two or three times a week. That is not in the scheme, and it represents overtime- Some of the men living in the suburbs work till a very inconvenient time to reach their home, the trams having stopped running. The scheme provided that the men should get off at 8 p.m.; but seventy-two more of them are being kept past that hour, some until midnight. 2842 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Does the honorable member say that the average worked in the Sydney telegraph office for the morning shift exceeds six and a half hours, or that the average of the afternoon shift exceeds five and a quarter hours ? 2842 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I say that the hours of the men working broken time will show,, in the two services they, have to render, between the morning and afternoon shifts, far more than is indicated as a fair thing by the Department, or by the Commissioner. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - In the calculation of the average work performed by these officers, the fullest extension of time is taken into consideration when a man is required to stay late ; and then it averages five and a quarter hours. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member is not correct in that statement 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - If the honorable member can prove that the official document is not correct, I will undertake to find the man who made it incorrect. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER That is for the honorable member to find out. I am giving him facts which will enable him to test whether the document is correct or not 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - I say that it is correct, and that it is taken from the time sheets. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The Public Service Commissioner told the Commission that everything was correct, and afterwards admitted that everything was incorrect. We have had that sort of thing in this Department too long. Ever since I have been in this House the men who have occupied the Ministerial chair have been ready to say ditto to everything put forward by the official mind of the Department. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - If one cannot believe the time sheets, where is one to get the facts from? 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Bluff will not answer this question. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - There is no bluff about it ; it is a question of fact. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Did the honorable member see the time sheets? 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Yes. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER And did he see that the figures he has given were correctly computed from it? 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Surely it was not necessary for me to make the calculation myself. Am I to occupy the position of a junior clerk while trying to run the show ? 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER In an important issue of this kind it is not a question of doing a junior clerk's work, but of finding out whether the facts are as they are represented to be. ' The tendency in the Department when any scheme is put forward is for those who father it to indorse it at all hazards, and see it carried through even at the expense of stretching the actual facts tn some extent. 2843 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWilliams - That is a very serious charge. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER If . .the honorable member looks through the sworn evidence taken by' the Royal Commission he can find a' thousand justifications for the charge. The idea of taking out an averaged of twelve words per minute puts the position very unfairly. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - I did not attach much importance to it. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member made a great song about it. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - I did not mention it until an interjection brought it out. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER It was part of the report furnished to the honorable member,; or it looked like it. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer -It was nothing of the kind. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I have not seen the report. That illustrates' another disadvantage under which we suffer. We do not see the full text of documents of- that kind, although the House is entitled to know exactly what they contain. I do not see how the Minister could have become acquainted with the twelve words per minute statement unless it was part of the report, and specially called for, for the special purpose of undermining the position taken up by the telegraphists of the Sydney office. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The number of words sent within the shift was given, and I worked the average out myself. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Then I take it that that is bound to be correct. 2843 JX9 ALP 1 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - It has just as good a chance of being correct as any statement which the honorable member is likely to make. 2843 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member can prove the truth of my statements if he will go the right way about it. I have no hesitation in saying that if the present conditions continue they will "be the worst that have ever prevailed in that" branch of the service, and will lead to trouble that none of us want to see. If the present state of affairs is not remedied,1 not only will the men engaged in the service suffer, but the public, who are more important to me than those men are, will likewise suffer by reason of a lack of system. This is merely a jumbjed-up proposal, brought in on -the spur of the moment by the Minister, as a substitute for the Public Service Commissioner's grading proposal, which would not work from the first. I certainly expect the Government to give us an opportunity Before the session closes of at least going to. a vote on. the motion which I have placed .on- the notice-paper. I have been promised that, and I expect the promise to be fulfilled. It may not do more than merely indorse that portion of the report which has been largely adopted, but I hope it may be the means of inducing the Government or those responsible to consider the remainder of the recommendations which have not yet been dealt with. I believe that the honorable member for Bendigo, after eulogizing the Public Service Commissioner and condemning certain other things, expressed himself, towards the end of his speech, heartily in favour of a Board of management such as the Commission recommended. 2844 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - Will the honorable member say whether the complaints he has spoken of are general throughout the States, or whether they emanate from New South Wales alone? 2844 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The statement I have is from New South Wales only. I do not think the principle has yet been applied to the other States. The conditions of the telegraphic business vary materially in the different States. 2844 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Perhaps the experiment is being made in New South Wales first. 2844 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I fancy that is largely the case, but am not in a position to say so absolutely. It will, 1 think, affect the whole of the States sooner or later. I understand that the honorable member for Bendigo{ in the final part of his speech, redeemed Himself to some extent by saying that he was in favour of what he had previously implied, by the eulogy he bestowed on the Public Service Commissioner, would not be a wise. proceeding. 2844 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir John Quick - I defended the Public Service Commissioner for what he had done under the law. 2844 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts The honorable member blamed- the system. 2844 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER So did the Public Service Commissioner, and the late Secretary. These were the two king-pins of the service, so that the honorable member is in harmony with both' of them. 2844 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - The honorable member said the Department required reorganizing. 2844 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman There is a new Postmaster-General now. 2844 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Our Hopes have always been revived with the advent of new Postmasters-General, But the new broom never seems to last long, or does not' seem large enough to get the trouble out of the office. I am not despising the new Postmaster-General. If assurance will do the work, I am sure it will be done. One of the curses of the Department has been the continual changes that have taken place in the Ministerial chair.- Sitting suspended from i to 2.1 j p.m. 2844 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER There is one other matter to which I desire to refer at this stage, because I shall not have another opportunity unless I make one on some item of the Estimates. The fallacious argument used is that a Board of Control for the Post and Telegraph Department would leave an opening for political influence, while under the present system that influence, it is alleged, cannot be exercised. We are told that the Public Service Commissioner is the only safeguard against politics in the administration of the Departments. It appears, however, that as to political influence, most men have in their minds one feature only. They think of some member of Parliament who, by reason of his position, is able to bring such influence to bear as to obtain concessions not enjoyed by the ordinary citizen. There is, however, another kind of political influence. For instance, the great officer, who is supposed to be the safeguard, is practically the greatest example of that influence of any man I have ever known. I should like honorable members to look through the declarations of the Public Service Commissioner and observe the attitude he has taken up at different stages from 1907 to the issue of his last report. When a Royal Commission was granted a certain political party was in power—no t the party at present in power—and * no move was made by the Public Service Commissioner to interpret what he might regard as the will of certain members of the Legislature. A little later another party came into power; and we saw at once how the atmosphere affected the departmental barometer. Advantages, which had hitherto been denied, were showered down on the Post and Telegraph servants. The Public Service Commissioner recognised that, owing to political action there had been an exposure of the existing conditions, and he realized that some one was looking into the matter, and learning more than it was discreet should be known. When the second party came into power— a party which, he presumed, would be better pleased with his efforts— he began to raise the emoluments of the lower paid men in the service, by giving them what he called long-service increments, as a kind of apology for a direct recognition of their claims. While the inquiry was proceeding another party came into power; and the Public Service Commissioner was asked to give evidence before the Royal Commission. He then declared that everything was all right in regard to emoluments and conditions in a general sense, and that there was no warrant for any alteration in the system. Here we observe, not the influence of one politician, but the influence of the party in power; and we also see the ability of the man to read the political barometer and observe which way it was safe to proceed. The door has been not only open, but wide open to the worst form of political influence that I have known in any Parliament I have studied. With the Public Service Commissioner what was right under certain political conditions was absolutely wrong under other political conditions. We know the political influence that may be exercised on a Minister or official to make concessions not quite within the regulations, or to obtain advancement or other advantages for an officer in the Public Service. But is' there not equally political influence when the man at the head of the Public Service denies, under one Administration, the need for any alteration, and then, under another Administration, admits the justice of recommendations to the contrary made by a Royal Commission? Under a Board of Control the Post and Telegraph service would be ten times more free from political influence, collective or individual, than it has hitherto been. 2845 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Does the honorable member not think that a Board of Control would be just as amenable to political influence as are the officers of the Department? 2845 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I am speaking of the man in charge, and not of the officers. 2845 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Is it not true of all Boards and Commissions that they are amenable to political influence? 2845 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER No; where the authority of a Board or Commission is strictly laid down, it is strong enough to resist any influence o'f the kind. A Board has no need to study the political barometer, because it is appointed for a given term, and fortified in its position by certain laws and regulations. Of course, if honorable members say that, in spite of all safeguards that may be devised, there is no Board proof against political influence, they have a poor opinion of humanity, even as we find it to-day. I admit that men born and bred under the present system cannot be expected to be free from its faults; and the Public Service Commissioner is one of the keenest political observers I have ever known. The men in the Department today give more attention to political indications than they do to the improvement of the system of which they are a part; and that feeling permeates the whole service under present conditions. Matters could not be worse from this point of view, and they could be made much better, not only in the interests of the officers themselves, but of the public. I may say that, whatever the result of my proposals may be, I shall return to this question. When I have convinced myself that a certain course of conduct is the best for the Commonwealth and the service, it will be a queer day when I cease to advocate the change I deem to be necessary. To present a report, and have some of its recommendations adopted, is a mere palliative. The concessions made by the Public Service Commissioner—wh o is a wise man, and knows when to ' ' come in out of the wet'' —ar e not by any means a radical cure for the situation; and so sure as we leave the canker there, the trouble will appear in worse form later on. We must go to the root—w e must eradicate the disease that has affected this great Public Service, not only under the Federal regime, but long before. With the expenditure of £[250,000 per annum, we have left scarcely a vestige of the system of the Public Service Commissioner. All the grading, re-grading, and so forth, on which that gentleman has been building for years, has gone out of existence as if it were a matter of no importance— it has melted under the light of criticism and common sense. The only thing that has not gone is the Public Service Commissioner. I have no personal feeling against him. Indeed, I entered upon the inquiry prejudiced in his favour. But a man who could give evidence as he did, and subsequently shelter himself behind a report dealing with the report of the Commission, in which, in effect, he declared that he did not mean what he said when before the Commission, and that he had other things in his mind which the Commission failed to draw from him, must lose my respect. It would have been far better for him to stand like a man by his evidence without trying to excuse himself, and to make it appear that he knew all that the Commission reported before the Commission made its report, although he gave no indication of that knowledge to us. VVe are spending nearly ,£4,000,000 per annum on our Public Service. That service comprises 20,000 permanent and temporary employes, and there is every probability of a vast increase in its numbers during the next few years, since every Department is likely to grow in importance, and its expenditure must grow with it. Is the Parliament prepared to allow this great instrument of- public utility to be handled by the same men as have handled it in the past, and to produce even more dire results than have occurred since 1906-7. If the Parliament decides to do so, it will do so with a f u l l knowledge of the actual position. The changes which we recommended are based on evidence clearly set forth in our report, and available to every man who seeks for information and guidance. The experience of the service is no longer a closed book to the Parliament. Honorable members can no longer plead ignorance of the state of affairs that has prevailed in connexion with it. We have opened everything to them. As to political influence, there is no man in Australia Who knows more of politics than does the gentleman who is" at the head of the Department which is supposed to suppress political influence. 2846 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The honorable member has given him a good dose; he had better leave him alone. 2846 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER If the right honorable member will .read the Public Service Commissioner's report on the recommendations of the Postal Commission, and read it in the light of .his actions, he will say that I have given him only a homoeopathic dose. I wish to refer for a moment to the financial feature of this question. In 1906-7, and during part of 1908, when the Treasurer's purse strings were drawn tightly because of the desire to return to the States money that ought to have been retained to provide for our own departmental requirements, what happened ? We have it in evidence that about that time the Public Service Commissioner met the Treasurer of the day on' a trip across from Sydney. He admits that he warned the Treasurer to be careful of his Estimates because of the prospects . of a drought. Whether that is all- that he told the Treasurer" I do not know, but One can hardly believe that nothing more happened between two old friends in the course of that long railway journey. The result was, however, that the Treasurer began, to be careful with his Estimates, and that meant refusing the Post and Telegraph Department the assistance necessary to effectively work it. 2846 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Who' then held office as Treasurer ? 2846 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The honorable member for Hume. The Public Service Commissioner not only" exercised his power in the direction in which I have spoken, but when he goes to the king pin we find political influence being used against the De apartment which he had to effectively staff. He discredited the men who were responsible for the working of the Department, while obtaining some credit himself for conserving the .interests of the Treasury. 2846 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Does the honorable member mean to say that the Public Service. Commissioner advised the Treasurer to be careful in dealing with his Estimates, as we were going to have bad seasons ? 2846 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER That is admitted. At that time the Postal Department was crying out for additional hands. There was a demand for as many as 600 hands for the Department in New South Wales alone, and that demand had -been refused from time to time. A large amount of the trouble and discontent in the Department was caused by the very man who was supposed to allay those troubles. 2846 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - This is too much. How can the Public Service Commissioner carry on his duties under attacks of this kind ? ... 2846 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The right honorable gentleman need not gibe at me. 2846 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - It is very unfair. I do not attack a man who cannot answer me. 2846 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The Public Service Commissioner has every chance of answering me. He. took up his office time, I presume, for weeks and weeks, in building up a castigation. of the Commission and a denunciation of its findings. He has caused that denunciation to be printed and published. Does the right honorable member think I am going to allow a man to attack me' within the covers of a report and j e t make no answer to him? If he does" he must think that I am like himself, and' ready to accommodate myself to every breeze that blows. 2847 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - We are all sick of this. 2847 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER The right honorable gentleman belonged to a Government 2847 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr Ryrie - Give us a show ! 2847 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER Our warrior from North Sydney is anxious to take a hand in the debate. I shall reserve what I have to say regarding the right honorable member for Swan for a time when it can be used more effectively. When honorable members talk of political influence I invite them to look at the conditions that have existed during the last five or six years. 2847 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - There are worse things than political influence. 2847 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER There are, and indications of those influences are not altogether wanting. We created the office of Public Service Commissioner in order that the service might be kept free from political influence. It is because I know it is the general feeling that political influence should be kept out of the service that I am pointing out that it is a fallacy to suppose that the present system is a safeguard against anything of the kind. I shall not attempt to distinguish between political and social influence, the influence of the club or family influence. Nor shall I attempt to distinguish between political influence and the influence of relatives, or the influence of the bridge table. I shall not refer to the influence that results from men playing bridge night after night, and which, wittingly or unwittingly, forms a bridge over which one of their friends can walk to a place of greater safety than he had before. It is a delusion that we are safeguarding the Public Service from political influence by keeping, it under the control of a gentleman of the calibre of the Public Service Commissioner. I shall reserve until we reach the Postal Estimates other comments that I may have to offer with respect to the Department. I have fulfilled the mission which I rose to fulfil this morning; 2847 KCP Boothby 0 0 GORDON, David Mr GORDON .- With the indulgence of honorable members I should like my first words in this House to be a personal tribute to my predecessor and friend of many years' standing, the late Honorable Egerton Lee Batchelor. In addition to the ordinary responsibilities which a new member must feel on entering this House, I have cast upon me the obligation of following a gentleman who set in this Parliament a high standard of personal character, whose work was distinguished by great party loyalty, and who gave efficient service to the public of Australia. It shall be my endeavour to gain that party confidence which my late friend was able to secure from his side of the House, and my aim to win, as Mr-. Batchelor was able to do, the respect of honorable members of all sections, and that of all loyal Australians. I do not know that I should have been so presumptuous as to take such an early opportunity of entering into the debates of the House but for a remark that was made yesterday by an honorable member opposite which suggested to me a train of thought with reference to a subject that has always been very near to me. I refer to the obligation assumed by the Commonwealth when it took over from South Australia the Northern Territory. I know that in the opinion of some people the Commonwealth made an excellent bargain when it took over that Territory, and I should like to remind the Committee that for many years the State from which I come endeavoured to do its duty to the rest of Australia in respect of that vast stretch of country. For many years the State from which I have the honor to come has carried the white man's burden for the whole continent, and even during times of great financial stress has refused to allow the introduction of coloured labour, resisting all attempts to that end. Yesterday, reference was made to a medical report dealing with the difficulty of developing tropical Australia with white labour, but it will take more than one such report to convince me that Australians cannot solve the problem without abandoning the policy of keeping the Commonwealth white. I have had an opportunity to examine parts of Central Australia and the Northern Territory, and have read many reports, including medical reports, regarding the country, and shall with difficulty be persuaded that it is not possible to develop our tropical regions without black labour. At the same time, I admit that the problem of developing a tropical country with white labour is one of the greatest that has confronted the European race. Downingstreet has had to deal with tropical countries where there are native populations, and there have been created difficulties such as we shall have to face in Papua, because in such places certain diseases are always present to which the natives are practically immune, though able to communicate them to white persons. We have no such difficulty to face in the Northern Territory, where we have practically a clean slate, and we have an opportunity to set an example in the development of tropical agriculture with white labour. Australians have faced and solved other problems in the past in a way that has earned us a reputation which is the . envy and admiration of the world. With reference to the suggestion made yesterday that the Government should undertake the control of the pastoral industry in the Territory, I think that the proposal is premature, because private enterprise has been more successful in that industry than in any other. In the breeding of high-class stock, and in the development of the wool industry, until Australia is the chief producer of wool in the world, our pastoralists have set an example to all other countries. Central Australia is more or less a pastoral country, and the first step towards its development is to provide means of transportation. Today the settlers there have the same means of transportation as were enjoyed in Egypt in the days of the Pharoahs. From Oodnadatta to Pine Creek, goods can be transported Only by camel trains, and when a few years ago I twice crossed the continent during the height of the mining boom in the MacDonnell Ranges, it would have been almost impossible to lose one's way on the Gibberstone salt bush plains, because of the mining machinery strewn along the track. It had been cast off various camel trains, and was lying there to be picked up by others, while adventurous spirits elsewhere were putting money into mining ventures, and wondering why dividends were not coming to them. Not being a mining man I cannot give an expert opinion, but there is every reason to believe that the mineral prospects of Central Australia are worth developing, though they cannot be developed until better means of transportation is provided. I view with some concern the choice of the 4-ft. 8j-in. gauge for the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway, because that may mean the choice of that gauge for the central transcontinental line. My desire is 'that for our connecting trunk lines that gauge shall be chosen which will give the best hauling capacity, the highest speed, and the maximum comfort. May I add that we in South Australia regard it as an obligation on the Commonwealth that it shall give attention to the matter of railway communication at the earliest moment. But we do not consider that this Government should have accomplished in eighteen months what the State was struggling to do for over forty years. I appeal to the Minister of External Affairs to make himself personally acquainted with the Northern Territory at the earliest opportunity. South Australia laboured under great disadvantage in having that Territory administered by Ministers who had no personal knowledge of tropical conditions. If the Minister of External Affairs were to travel from Port Darwin through Central Australia, he would find the trip of great interest, and would appreciate, as most Australians fail to do, the vastness of the continent and of the Northern Territory. I have heard it said, and I have also read the statement in Hansard, that the transcontinental railways are desert railways ; but the representatives of South Australia know that it is not competent for any man, whatever his experience may be, to apply the word "desert" to any part of Australia. I resent the suggestion that the word is a proper one to designate any part of Central Australia, or of tropical Australia washed by the Indian Ocean. If I at any time use the word, it is merely 'in a comparative sense. We have no right to label, and at the same time to libel, any part of Australia as desert. Mr. Frank Bullen, a writer of excellent sea stories, after visiting Australia, wrote a book in which he characterized its central districts as a vast and howling wilderness; but he did not go further north than the park lands surrounding Adelaide. It is not only the libels of the " globe trotter " of which we have to complain ; our own people are often guilty of running down the country, and referring to its central districts as a veritable Sahara. Without proper means of communication, they might as well be a Sahara, because it is impossible to bring produce ,from them. The finest cattle country I have visited in Central Australia, lying between Barrows Creek and the Gulf of Carpentaria, is on the Frew River; but an Adelaide company, after breeding cattle there for some years, had finally to leave them there to die of old age, because it was impossible to drive them across the dry belt to a railway station. The rainfall of a portion . of Central Australia is the smallest on the continent, being less than 5 inches; though it increases to 5 feet at Darwin. South Australia is not impatient ; but we hope that the Minister of External Affairs will, before the session closes, state the policy of the Government for the development of the Northern Territory. If, as some critics affirm, South Australia did little in developing the country, it must be admitted that it did that little uncommonly well. It sent explorers through the Territory, constructed a telegraph line across the continent, and commenced a railway which our financial obligations alone prevented us from continuing. In South Australia there is a fair average number of Scotchmen, yet, it is thought that the State would have been well advised, from a business point of view, in extending the line a few hundred miles further, . tq, make the connexion of the Northern Territory by the shortest route. We must remember that there are two Australias, one lying in the tropic or semi-tropic zone, the other in the temperate. We are endeavouring as best we are able to develop the tropical region whilst living in the temperate, and having very little knowledge of the burdens which the tropics always impose on a white people. However, I am quite sure that we, as a people, accustomed as we are to pave the way and break the roads for others, will be able to face the problem, with the courage born of the certainty that we are endeavouring to solve it for the benefit of a White Australia. A remark was made to-day that " the squatters had had every chance to develop the Northern Territory, and had not availed themselves of it." I prefer to refer to them as pastoralists, which is the more modern term. We have left behind the squatter of the old days within the rainfall line, and the pastoralist of to-day often has not a very easy row to hoe. A few years ago, in company with my late friend, Mr. Batchelor, and the, honorable member for Hindmarsh, and to the knowledge of yourself, sir, I had the pleasure of making an extensive trip through the Gawler range country. It was the time of the great drought. The heat was terrific, the thermometer being day after day at 117 and 118 in the shade. We saw then at first-hand the difficulties against which the pastoralists had to contend in developing the parts of Australia west from Port Augusta. I should like to recommend the honorable member who made that remark about the pastoralists and the Northern Territory to read that little Australian classic, We of the Never -Never. He will then realize how the pioneer pastoralists have faced the difficulties of that part of the country, how they have had to fight Nature at first-hand, and I think he will agree with me, when he looks at' the statistics in relation to the Northern Territory, that a great amount of pioneering work has already been accomplished there. I say advisedly that until we are prepared to do away with the system which prevailed in South Australia during the transfer negotiations - when it was possible for pastoralists to obtain only an annual permit - and to give them long and favorable terms, we cannot hope to have the Northern Territory occupied and developed to the extent that it should be. These are matters which I know will receive the attention of the Minister of External Affairs in due course. I am not in any way complaining. All I say is that we from South Australia, and, indeed, all the people of Australia, are looking to the Government for some sort of lead in respect of a policy which will enable Central Australia to be occupied and developed, and tropical Australia to be also made use of. I hold that the best defence possible for Australia is to have people of our own choice in Australia developing its great natural resources. The man behind the cultivator is always going to be a better defence to Australia than the man behind the cannon. I wish to deal with the question of defence. I desire, first, to congratulate the Government on having introduced into the Cabinet an honorable member who has had practical experience of military work. I refer to the honorable member for Adelaide, who, I understand, represents the Minister of Defence in this Chamber. I am sure that in him the House will have a man who will give his serious attention to all matters that may be brought before him. I hope the honorable member will not take it as a joke - I am referring to it purely in a military sense - when I say that I intend, as an old volunteer, to do what I can to check any conservative instincts which the Minister may have in respect to the development of the military system. I allude, of course, to conservative instincts on the military side. I do not wish to discard anything in relation to uniforms, armaments, or other things that may have been used in England, so long as they are good; but in starting a military system here we must not be so conservative as to follow the patterns of older countries merely because they have been used for centuries. The Minister might ascertain if it is a fact that it is intended to adopt the old postilion style in connexion with ammunition and other waggons used in the military service. Another matter about which I asked my. friends in the service to give me a note is the objection to the Westley Richards rifle that has been chosen as the weapon for the cadets. Its bore is .310, and the bullet weighs 125 grains. It is claimed that the breech action is different from that of the .303 rifle, and that, therefore, the cadet, after learning to use it, will have to be taught the. .303 bolt action when he is drafted into the militia at eighteen years of age. This seems to be an argument against the use of an obsolete weapon at this early stage of our cadet movement. The War Office miniature .222 bore is a cheaper weapon, with the sights and breech action .of the .303, and is certainly more accurate. These are matters of detail which I was asked to bring under the notice of the Minister. I shall be glad to supply him with further details regarding them. I merely refer to them in order to sound a note of warning that, in connexion with the military and naval system, we must be careful in this House, and in Australia generally, not to lose our heads over militarism. For my own part, I am quite prepared to be patient in regard to the introduction of what is known as the compulsory cadet system, although I do not like the word compulsory. I do not object, to the young Australian having some discipline. I think it is good for him; but we shall have to watch very carefully any attempt to multiply expense in regard to militarism in Australia. I believe too much might be made of our danger from attack.- We must be prepared to defend our country ; but I repeat that the best possible defence for Australia, is to increase our production and develop our great natural resources. To get here people of our own choice is the best means of preventing any one else choosing our population for us. 2850 L0I North Sydney 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE .- I. should like to compliment the honorable member for Boothby upon the very excellent speech which he has just delivered. I am sure that members on both sides of the House can come only to the one conclusion: that the honorable member must prove an acquisition, not only to his party, but to the Federal Parliament as a whole. I was very pleased to hear the eloquent tribute which he paid to the memory of his predecessor, the late Mr: Batchelor. I am sure that it found an echo in the heart of every man in this House. As I understand that the "Leader of the Opposition is desirous of helping the Government to conclude the debate on the Budget this afternoon, I regret that it will be impossible for me to deal with many subjects upon which I wished to touch. I must, therefore, content myself with referring briefly to some matters chiefly connected with Australian defence. I am pleased to find in the Estimates an item, for new works and additions in connexion with the Military College at Duntroon. I had the pleasure of visiting the College recently with a number of other members of this Parliament, and I am sure every one of us came away convinced that the College is being run upon workmanlike lines, and not for show. It is being carried out absolutely in the spirit of the recommendations laid down by that great organizer, Lord Kitchener. I am sure every one of the party was absolutely convinced that an honest endeavour was being made to establish and maintain the College on the lines of the great American College at West Point. It is well that that should be done, because we shall have to look to this College later on for the officers to command the great Australian Army that is to be cheated under the compulsory service scheme. The Defence Department, under Senator Pearce, are deserving of every credit for the way in which they ar.e carrying out the work in connexion with the College. While I give the Government every credit in that regard, I must deny their claim to be responsible for the inauguration of the system under which the College has been established. As a matter of fact, they were not responsible for bringing Lord Kitchener to this country ; and it was he who was primarily responsible for the establishment of the College. It was the Liberal party that brought Lord Kitchener to Australia, and therefore to them is due the inauguration of the scheme. As to the Naval College, I was very much surprised to find that the Government had decided to change the site from Burraneer Bay to Jervis Bay - a decision which is most difficult to understand in the face of the expert recommendations. We had Captain Chambers brought from England, and a great deal of trouble and expense was incurred; and yet suddenly, for some reason that I do not pretend to understand, Jervis Bay has been selected. Several honorable members have suggested reasons for this change of front, but it is absolutely inexplicable to me. Jervis Bay is practically in the bush; and we know the objections that have been raised to the Capital Site on that ground. Jervis Bay is only a small settlement on the wildest part of the coast; and there are no dockyards or provision for those stores of ammunition and so forth which are so absolutely necessary. Of course, we could cart all the stores and appliances, and provide a college with all accessories at Jervis Bay, but it would be only at enormous expense. It would be of great advantage if the cadets were near the University of Sydney, so as to be able to avail themselves of its lectures and other educational advantages. 2851 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald Are the Naval Colleges in the Old World near universities? 2851 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE At any rate, West Point and the other colleges are not in the bush. By the alteration in the site we are practically throwing back at a number of patriotic gentlemen the £43,000 promised towards the cost of - erection. 2851 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - They are so patriotic that they stipulate the College must be at one particular place ! 2851 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE They were patriotic enough to give the' money, provided a suitable locality were selected. If the Government do not accept this £43,o 0°> they will have to raise an equivalent sum from the public. 2851 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - The experts first recommended Hobart. 2851 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE The most recent experts recommended Burraneer Bay, and Hobart was out of the question. Although I am a Nationalist, I may tell Tasmanian representatives that the late Mr. Tyson, pastoralist, once desired to buy Tasmania for a ram paddock, and that I do not think that Tasmania' is- at all a suitable site in which to have the Naval College. Speaking of Defence generally, I think a great mistake is made in not giving the area officers adequate remuneration for their services. These officers must be responsible for the making or marring of our' great scheme of Defence, seeing that they have cast upon them the responsibility of moulding the compulsory: trainees into- shape. We are not encouraging the, best men to offer their services with a salary of' £15°- I know from experience, that these men have very little time to devote to their own affairs; in fact, if they carry out the duties as they ought, they will have no time at all. Then, again, the salaries paid to the non-commissioned officers who have to do practically the whole; of the work in the areas, are inadequate. The general question of the pay of our Military Forces I have already dealt with on a motion; but I emphasize the fact that it is absurd to expect the best material for pay so poor. These non-commissioned officers are actually receiving the same salary they did ten years ago, although we have been told by the Honorary Minister that there has been an increase of 40 per cent. I can prove that there has been no increase, except in the payment of the lower ranks, and that was only because, otherwise, recruits could not be obtained. We may take it that the senior non-commissioned officers are really not receiving as much as they did ten years ago, if we consider the allowances. I should like to refer to the treatment of the contingent of cadets which visited the Old Country at Coronation time. There has been considerable discussion on this question, and Major Wynne, the officer in charge, has been blamed in some way. I have some papers here in connexion with that visit, which, I think, will prove very interesting to honorable members. It will be remembered that, in reply to me, the Honorary Minister said that the whole position was due to the action of Major Wynne. 2851 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN I point out to the honorable member that he has a motion on the notice-paper dealing with this question. 2851 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE I am" not now referring to the proposal to appoint a Select Committee, and I respectfully point out that, although a few days ago the honorable member for Gwydir spoke for five and a half hours on postal administration on a motion, he was not stopped to-day when he dealt with the same question. It appears to me that it would be difficult to discuss any question on the Defence Estimates which does not clash with the motion on the business-paper. My desire is to comment on the action-of the Government in npt.seeing that proper expenditure was made to supply the wants of these cadets. 2851 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN I understood that the honorable member was replying to some criticism raised when his motion on the paper was. before the Chair. If that be so, the honorable member is-not in order. 2852 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE I shall obey your ruling, sir, and not deal with any question raised in connexion with my motion. The reason why it was supposed that Major Wynne was to blame was that he sent a wireless message of congratulation to the King. I have the original message here, and I think the House will see that it was not exactly a congratulatory message, but simply an expression of loyalty from Major Wynne and the contingent under his command. Exception was taken, however, to that message; and the following telegram was sent to Major Wynne :— Minister of Defence has observed in public press message purporting come from you to King. Desires explanation on arrival why such communication was sent irregularly, and how you can justify an erroneous assumption of the terms officers and men of Australian Coronation contingent, seeing that no such contingent has been authorized. I think I shall be able to show that this Coronation contingent was authorized in every sense of the word, except so far as expense was concerned. 2852 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - If it were not authorized, Major Wynne was a private citizen, and had no right to be interfered with. 2852 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE Quite so. The message sent by Major Wynne was as follows :— Major Wynne, Officers, and men, Australian Coronation contingent, at sea en route to England bv steamer Themistocles, send, on Empire Day, on behalf cadets of Australia assurances of loyalty and devotion lo your Majesty's 'Throne and Person, and wishes for a long and prosperous reign to the beloved Sovereign of the Great British Empire. Is there anything to take exception in those expressions of loyalty? To that message the following reply was received:— Major Wynne, Australian Coronation Contingent, At Sea, Radio, Themistocles, Durban. The King desires you to convey to all ranks of the Australian Coronation Contingent the expression of His Majesty's sincere thanks for their loyalty and good wishes.—C . WIGRAM, Equerry. 2852 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The message was sent on Empire Day. 2852 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE Yes , on the occasion of festivities on board the vessel. It has been .said that Major Wynne took this action without approaching the Minister of Defence ; that he gave no explanation of it to the Minister, and that he did not report to him upon arrival in England. I have here a copy of a letter addressed to the Minister of Defence by Major Wynne himself upon arrival at Plymouth— Sir,— I have the honour to report to you the arrival at Plymouth to-day by T.S.S. Themistocles, of the Australian Commonwealth Coronation Contingent of New South Wales cadets. Officers, N.CO.'s and men are all in' good health. The discipline throughout the voyage was excellent, and there has been a marked improvement in the drill and general appearance of all ranks as the result of the " setting-up" work daily. The necessary reports and returns have been supplied to the port officials and others as required by the Regulations. You will, I am sure, be pleasantly surprised when you see the Contingent on parade. The average physique is up to the standard required for adult regiments, except in the case of the juniors, who are, however, well advanced foi their years. On Empire Day, a big demonstration was held on board the ship, and great enthusiasm prevailed. Similarly, on King's Birthday, there was a parade and march past. The members of the Contingent are imbued with the proper spirit, and will do their best to uphold the honour and credit of Australia. The news from Captain Collins concerning the camp at Richmond Park was warmly welcomed. The lads are keen on soldiering, and anxious to learn all they can of their future profession by association with British troops. The opportunity of doing so would have been lost at Crystal Palace. I received a-cable at Santa Cruz, asking for an explanation of my " irregularity " in sending a message of loyalty to. the King on Empire Day. I am sorry to say that I had not until then realized that I had neglected to follow the proper course, and I promptly cabled you expressing regret if my omission to do so had given you offence— Can any exception be taken to Major Wynne's action in view of this letter, in which he expressed regret that he had not sent his message through the proper channel? 2852 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN I must ask the honorable member not to proceed further along the line he is now'following. I have allowed him to make a general reference to the subject. 2852 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - But this is a general debate, Mr. Chairman. 2852 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN The honorable member is now dealing with a matter covered by a notice of motion on the business-paper in reference to the visit of cadets to England. 2852 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE You allowed the honorable member for Gwydir to deal with the Postal Department and the work of the Postal Commission, although there is a motion on the business-paper relating to the adoption of the Postal Commission's report, and I took my cue from that fact. 2852 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - But the subject which the honorable member is now discussing is not connected with the expenditure of money. The Government made no grant to the contingent. 2852 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE I know that they did not, and I am anxious to show why provision should have been made by the Government for this contingent of cadets to visit the Old Country. Under your ruling, Mr. Chairman, I shall not be 'able to complete my reading of the letter addressed by Major Wynne to the Minister of Defence, who was then in England; but I think I shall be in order in showing that the contingent was officially recognised by the Government, save only in the matter of expenditure. I have'here a copy of a letter addressed to Major Wynne by Mr. Pethebridge, Secretary to the Department— Melbourne, 30th March, 1911. Dear Sir,—Wit h reference to the relative status of the various contingents of Australian cadets who may proceed to England for the Coronation celebrations, I beg to inform you that, if separate detachments come together in military formation whilst in England, the usual practice should for the time being be followed— that is, the senior officer should take command. That shows that the contingent was recognised by the Department, but we have a still more definite statement in the following letter, dated 20th February, 1911, addressed by the Secretary of the Department to Major Wynne— The Minister desires me to inform you, in reply to yours of the 16th inst., that the requests made in sub-paragraphs (o), (4), (e), and [d) on page 3 of the proposal you submitted to Head-quarters, New South Wales, on 16th inst., are granted. The Government will give recognition to the proposal only on the distinct understanding that no financial liability whatever, either in connexion with the raising, sending, or returning of the contingent will be recognised by the Goyernment. The Government would have acted wisely in placing on last year's Estimates a sum to provide for the proper equipment of a contingent of not only Commonwealth cadets, but Commonwealth soldiery, to take part in the great festivity of the Coronation. It has been said that the whole trouble arose from Major Wynne's action; that other officers who went home were quite satisfied, and had no complaint to make. As bearing on that point, I propose to read the following letter from Captain Rushall, of Victoria, the officer commanding the Australian Mounted Cadets on the Coronation tour, to the officer commanding the New South Wales contingent of cadets— With reference to the issue of Coronation Medals for the Overseas Cadets, I understand from Lt. Thornton that it would interest you to know that, so far as my command is concerned, I have not neglected the matter. Officially, I have written direct to the Minister of War, giving details of conditions under which I raised the Troop under the official recognition of the Commonwealth Government. Here we have the statement that Captain Rushall wrote direct to the Minister of War, yet no fault was found with him— In my letter, I mentioned the fact that there are at present here 3 detachments of Oversea Cadets, under their own separate management, and 3 distinct commands—bu t the object of the visit being common to all. I understand that you have taken -action, so far as your contingent is concerned, and I hope the O.C. Canadians has done the same. I presume that the officer commanding the Canadians took the same action, so that all were dissatisfied with the treatment meted out to them. 2853 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - That was only in regard to the distribution of medals. 2853 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE They were dissatisfied about the whole thing. I was sorry to hear some honorable members opposite cast aspersions on the lads who composed the New South Wales contingent. What has become of their statement with regard to certain scandals alleged to have taken place in Paris? I take it that they are not prepared to follow up that statement. They were not prepared to allow my motion to go to a division in order that a full inquiry might take place. Those who made allegations regarding scandals in Paris were not prepared to give any information to the press; they were dumb as oysters. I challenge them to give proof of the so-called scandals. I defy them to do so. The contingent, from its commanding officer to the youngest cadet, has absolutely nothing to fear. I do not know whether there is an arrangement to close' this debate this afternoon. 2853 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - Yes ; the Deputy Leader of the honorable member's party told the honorable member so this afternoon. The honorable member will be able to deal with other points on the Estimates. 2853 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE I always believe in honouring an arrangement made between parties, and, therefore, although there are many matters in connexion with defence with which I should like to deal, I shall not refer to them On this occasion. I am prepared to resume my seat now on the understanding that the debate is to be closed. 2853 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Then, if the honorable member will sit down on that understanding, I shall not speak. 2854 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE If honorable members opposite will give me an assurance that one of their number is not going to rise as soon as I sit down I shall be prepared to bring my remarks at once to a close. I wish to know why the Government has not attempted to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission which at so much cost investigated the administration of the Postmaster-General's Department? The public is ready to pay for an efficient service, but at present the service is anything but efficient and satisfactory. The Department reeks with 'discontent, and its employes are often on the verge of striking. I do not wonder at that, in view of the many disabilities under which they labour. The new Postmaster-General promised to remove the grievance of broken shifts from which the telegraphists suffer, but he has not done so. The men are not able to have the time off to go to their homes which they should have, and could have if the work were differently arranged. The letter sorters, too, complain that, although the maximum rate • of .the letter-carriers is .£156, their minimum rate is £144, so that a man on being promoted from carrying to sorting has to lose £12 a'year. The postal officials are, orr the whole, underpaid, and an efficient service is not to be expected from men who are not contented with their remuneration. Again, there is a large'body of temporary employes, who do not know from day to day how long-they will be kept on. Many of these men should be appointed permanently, some;.of them 'having been in the service for as long as twenty-two years: Their- position is not an enviable one, since the Minister of Home Affairs sent out his famous-'memorandum calling on his officers to- supply him with a list of the non-unionists under his control. But as it is the general wish to report progress, I shall defer my further remarks until the several items with which they deal are reached. Motion agreed to Progress reported. 2854 adjournment 2854 2854 3.50 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. The first business on Tuesday will be the consideration of the slight amendment of the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill made by the Senate, after which debate on the Commonwealth Bank Bill will be continued until the measure has been disposed of. 2854 3.52 JNV Herbert 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD .- Has the Prime Minister an announcement to make in regard to an extension of sittings ? It is rumoured that the Government intend not only to take private members' time for public business, but to have an extra sitting day, to which, personally, I am opposed. 2854 3.53 L0K Laanecoorie 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr CARTY SALMON - This morning I asked the Minister of Home Affairs a question, to which he gave no satisfactory reply, an observation which I made at the time, and I have since confirmed it by reading the printed report of the answer. A previous Government, taking advantage of the experience of the officer holding the highest position in the Victorian Public Service, made him Commissioner for the distribution of the State into Commonwealth divisions. He carried out this duty with satisfaction to every one, there being the fullest confidence in his integrity and ability, although two members might have been expected to have a grievance in regard to his recommendations. He still holds his commission, but the Amending Electoral Bill provides for three Commissioners. I was informed, not by Mr. Topp himself, that he was asked by the Minister to become Chairman of. the Board of Commissioners, and agreed to accept the position. He is a devoted public officer, who would place his private desires in the background to carry out what he conceived to be a public duty. But, as it is stated in the press that three new Commissioners are -to be appointed, one naturally wishes to know if Mr. Topp is to be superseded. I asked the Minister a question on the subject, and he gave a reply which showed that he did not know what the facts were. I do not blame him for that, because he cannot carry all the details of the administration of his Department in his head, but I then put a question on the notice-paper, and expected, as the question was put in a categorical form, to receive from the Minister categorical replies. Instead of that, the replies to questions 1, 2, and 3 were grouped together, and the very important question contained in number 2 was not answered at all. In that regard the Minister did not act fairly by me, or by the House. When questions are put on the notice-paper, the least we can expect is that answers should be given to them. If the Minister does not consider it expedient, or is unable, to supply an answer, he should frankly say so. I asked whether he would ascertain if Mr. C. A. Topp's proposed visit to Europe would interfere with the discharge of his duties under his commission. I believe, although I have had no communication with Mr. Topp on the subject, that he is prepared to remain in Australia until the work of the Commission is completed, and even until it is adopted by the House. In those circumstances a grave injustice .is being done to a highly esteemed public official by the want of consideration which has been shown to him. I do not say that the Chief Electoral Officer of the Commonwealth, the officer who we presume is to supersede Mr. Topp, is not fitted to carry out the duties, but I do question the advisableness of having the officer who might be regarded as the chief adviser of the Minister on this very subject, acting in a judicial capacity. It would stand to reason that any advice which he might give subsequently to the drawing up of the subdivisions would be in the direction of getting those subdivisions adopted. The Minister himself is losing an opportunity of getting from the Chief Electoral Officer that advice which I feel sure he would ask for if he were in a position of difficulty, and which I am sure he would get. I wish to disabuse the House and the Minister of the idea that I have any objection at all to Mr. Oldham. I have none, but I am speaking on behalf of a late officer of the Victorian Public Service, who has done this work admirably in the past and is pre-eminently fitted to do it again, because of the wealth of knowledge that he has at his command, and" his perfect personal knowledge - more perfect than that of any other man in Victoria or the Commonwealth - of the conditions which should govern such a subdivision. We are throwing all this away for what reason I do not know. The only thing I ca.n conceive of is that the Minister was led to believe that" this gentleman was going oh a trip to Europe, and that his services Would not be available. .1 now ask the Minister 'to ascertain from Mr. Topp whether his services are available, and if they are to remove from him what undoubtedly would be regarded as a stigma upon his reputation. He has done the work more than once, and should be allowed to do it again if he is prepared to undertake it, unless there is some grave objection in the mind of the Minister. If there is, it ought to be stated. If there is not, then he should undoubtedly be again intrusted with this very responsible duty. 2855 4.0 KLM Melbourne ALP 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY . - I am sure the Minister has no intention of injuring a man of Mr. Topp's attainments, the record of whose life is so good: that the matter should be cleared up. He was certainly appointed previously, and I understand that that appointment was not limited as to terms. If that was so, he should have been asked to do the work again on this occasion, or his commission1 should have been ended. No member of this House has objected to . the division of the State of Victoria when, unfortunately, it lost a member previously. Mr. Topp's record in Victoria is such that any one conversant with it would hesitate for a long time before passing him over if he was available to carry out these duties. I have nothing but commendation for the three officers who have been appointed. Their names are as familiar as household words to any politician in Victoria. One of them comes with a good record from New South Wales. If one way of getting over the difficulty was to appoint four Commissioners, that might be done. If any Federal officer is taken away from his duties to do other work during the hours, that he would have devoted, to his usual, duties, I do not see that a separate sum of money should be paid to him. If special payment is to be' given in those' circumstances I want to enter my protest against it. If it is done, a record should appear in the Estimates showing the total a mount of salary and allowances received. 2855 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher That is done 2855 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY Is any amount put down for this work? 2855 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I shall not agree to any! extra payment being given to a Common-' wealth officer. 2855 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY Perhaps the matter could be settled at once. Is a sum of money to be devoted to this purpose? 2855 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Payment will be made to any State officers employed. 2855 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY But not to Commonwealth officers? 2855 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - No; but they will, or course, be paid their expenses. 2855 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY Unfortunately , in one sense, Melbourne, within a 10-mile radius, has increased its population to nearly 600,000, which is within 50,000 of being half of the total population of Victoria. I would like to ask the Minister if , in the subdivision, it will be possible to give two extra members to the metropolitan area, because the Constitution provides that the number of electors in each constituency must be as nearly equal as possible. In that case it might mean one or two country seats being lost. Perhaps if that fact were made widely known, it might stimulate the State Parliament to make better land laws, so that more people would settle in the country districts. Could the Minister bring pressure to bear in that way upon the State Government, in order that the country parts of Victoria may not become depopulated, as, unfortunately, some of them have been? I understand that some parts of Victoria, have to-day fewer inhabitants than they had twenty years ago. 2856 KW8 Cowper 0 0 THOMSON, John Mr JOHN THOMSON . - I understand that the Minister of Defence has been engaged for some time in considering the question of obtaining a site; and suitable buildings, for temporary premises for the Naval College. I should be glad if he would delay his decision on that matter until I am able to place before him certain particulars, which I shall be able to obtain in Sydney tomorrow, with regard to premises at Trial Bay, on the .coast of New South Wales, which have been in the occupation of the Harbors and Rivers Department, and by the gaol authorities, for some years, but are not now used. 2856 F4N 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher I think the Minister is acquainted with the facts. 2856 KW8 0 0 THOMSON, John Mr JOHN THOMSON I had an interview with the Minister of Defence today, and I understand that he is obtaining a report. My desire is that he shall delay his decision until I am able to place before him some information which I think will facilitate matters. 2856 4.5 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I am rather surprised that a question like this should be raised on the motion for adjournment by the honorable member for Laanecoorie. I could quite understand such a step if the honorable member were not satisfied with the answers to his question ; but it is certainly most undesirable to discuss the personnel of a body which has the duty of dividing the constituencies. 2856 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon Would the honorable member discuss the matter after the division had been made? 2856 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON No ; but I should like to know where we could get two men who know more about such work than Mr. Reid, the Surveyor-General, and Mr. Molloy, of the Electoral Department. It appears to me that these gentlemen, in conjunction with the Commonwealth Electoral Officer, are about the most expert that could» be found for the work. 2856 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - Why more so than the man who has done the work before ? 2856 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON The anxiety and solicitude shown by the honorable member for Laanecoorie in regard to one particular person, would now practically disqualify that person from being appointed. 2856 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - Nonsense ! 2856 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON In my opinion, we ought not to discuss the men who are to do this work, because, as the honorable member for Melbourne says, we do not know what may happen. During the last ten years the population of Victoria has increased by only 114,000, and 96,000 of these are within '.the metropolitan area.- That is an exceptional state of affairs; and I am not speaking as from the point of view of the city against the country, because no one regrets more than myself that the increase is not greater in the country districts. According to the Electoral Act, if the population increases in one particular portion, we may assume that that portion is entitled to increased representation; and it may happen that practically two country members will be wiped out, and an extra member given to the city. I am sorry that that should be so, but whatever subdivision may be made, I hope it will be fair to Victoria. 2856 K5D Darwin ALP Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY Under the Electoral Act of 1902 there was only one Commissioner, Mr. Topp, but in 1909 the Deakin Ministry appointed three. The Surveyor- General must be one ; and when all the names were placed before me, I felt that three better men could not have been selected. Mr. Oldham praised Mr. Topp, who, however, he said was going away. 2856 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon That was a mistake. 2856 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY These are all honorable men, and now that the names have been announced, one could not' be withdrawn without injuring his standing in the country. 2856 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Why did Mr. Oldham say that Mr. Topp is going away? 2857 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY Because Mr. Topp is going away. 2857 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - Did Mr. Oldham recommend himself? 2857 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY Nonsense! 2857 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - Was it Mr. Oldham's remark that caused him to be appointed ? 2857 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY No ; he was speaking of Mr. Topp with the greatest praise, as every one does. As to the changes that may be 'made, I say that, under no circumstances, will I discuss the matter with anybody until the report of the Commissioners is on the table. I never talk to the Commissioners about what they are going to do, or what they are not going to do. When the report is made, I will place it on the table for honorable members to reject or accept. 2857 L0K 0 0 SALMON, Charles Dr Carty Salmon - I do not think I suggested anything to the contrary. 2857 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY Quite so. I only desire to show- 2857 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - That the Minister is the ultimate result in his Department I . 2857 K5D 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY I am; there is no " rubber stamp " about me! 2857 4.11 KZG Adelaide ALP Honorary. Minister 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS . - In reply to the honorable member for Cowper, I may say that I am aware that the Minister of Defence is anxious for temporary accommodation to be obtained at the earliest possible moment. I cannot promise to cause any delay, but I shall place the request of the honorable member before the Minister this evening, in the hope that he will be able to see his way clear to grant it. 2857 4.12 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - In reply to the honorable member for Herbert, I may say that the Government propose to take the time now given to private members' business. It is not proposed at present to have any extra sitting days, but it may be necessary to ask honorable members to make a sacrifice a little later on, and sit for some extra time in order to clear up the business before Christmas. Question resolved in the affirmative. 2857 16:14:00 House adjourned at 4.14 p.m.