1912-08-06 4 3 0 REPS 1678 0 House of Representatives. 1912-08-06 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers 1678 Questions 1678 Fining of Cadets - Western Australian Cadets 1678 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - I wish to know from the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, if the Defence Bill which has been introduced will have the effect of reducing the penalties imposed on cadets for failing to attend drills? I wish, too, to know if the Minister will take into consideration the advisability of remitting all the fines that have been imposed on cadets for not attending drills? 1678 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - In conformity with the provisions of the Bill, the Minister has been making recommendations in respect to the fining of cadets, and has asked for the remission of fines in all cases in which cadets agree to make up the time that has been lost. 1678 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Is it a fact that the brigade majors, or area officers, have been instructed to. apply to the magistrates for the, suspension of fines pending action being taken by the Government? 1678 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - That is so. The request has been sent through the proper channel for the suspension of action, in view of the recommendation that the Minister is making, and of the introduction of legislation which will probably meet with the approval of Parliament. 1678 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - Will the Minister, in framing new rules, consider the advisability of instructing the area officers to send a notice each quarter to the parents of cadets who have not attended drills, in order to give them an opportunity to compel their sons to make up lost time during the remainder of the year? 1678 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I shall have much pleasure in bringing the suggestion under the immediate notice of the Minister. 1678 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I wish to know from the Minister representing the Minister of Defence if he can now inform me as to the reasons why the Western Australian Cadets were not represented at the recent Inter-State contests in Mebourne? I asked for the information some weeks ago. 1678 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The. information has been available to the honorable member for a considerable time. 1678 1678 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - Can the Minister of Home Affairs inform the House when he expects to know the boundaries of the new electorates of New South Wales? 1678 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I cannot say exactly. We have sent over the quota, ana expect a report from the Commissioners almost any time. 1678 1678 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - In view of the distinct issue which has been raised between the honorable gentleman and the Argus as to the alleged widespread insubordination amongst certain workers under his Department, will the Minister of Home Affairs refer the point at issue to an impartial individual to determine? At the present time each party is denying what the other affirms. 1679 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I am not responsible for what the Argus says or does. It is in a state of spiritual lunacy at present. I can only be responsible for my Department. The charges are absolutely false. 1679 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Has the Minister called for a report from any of the leading officials of his Department in reference to the statements which appeared an the Argus? If he has a report which enables him to say that the statements are false, will he lay it on the table, so that the public interest in the matter may be satisfied? If he has not such a report, will he have one made? 1679 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I did speak to my officers, but there is no such report. I called their attention to the charges of the Argus, and, though they did not say it, I could see that they thought the Argus is suffering from Chinese leprosy. 1679 1679 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I wish to know whether the Prime Minister will consider, in connexion with an amendment of the old-age pensions law, the desirableness of affording persons who are not naturalized another opportunity to qualify for pensions without waiting for three years? 1679 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - This is an evergreen question. When the last amendment of the law was made, we gave special facilities to aliens to become naturalized, in order that they might take advantage of it, but, unfortunately, quite a number of them did not avail themselves of the opportunity. 1679 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - They did not know of it. 1679 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I admit the reasonableness of extending to those who, although not citizens of the Empire, have rendered good service to the country, some consideration. The matter will receive favorable attention. 1679 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers - Conciliation and Arbitration Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1912, No. 163. Electoral Act and Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Act - Provisional Regulations - Statutory Rules 1912, No: 161. Lands Acquisition Act - Land Acquired under - In the Federal Territory and New South Wales - For Commonwealth purposes. At Guildford, Western Australia - For Defence purposes. Seat of Government (Administration) Act - Ordinance No. 3 of 1912 - Traffic (No. 2). 1679 Questions 1679 1679 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice - Whether he has noticed in the daily papers that a large number of Maltese workmen are being imported by the Mr Lyell Mining Company, in Tasmania, to work at the Mr Lyell mine ? Have they been brought to Australia under contract ? If so, what are the terms of the contract? 1679 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I have seen it stated that a number of Maltese are employed by the Mount Lyell Mining Company, but not that they were imported by that company. No Maltese, so far as I am aware, have been brought to Australia under contract. If they have, the contracts are void, because I have not given approval to any applications to introduce Maltese labourers under contract. 1679 1679 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - Will he place on the table of the House the plans of the alteration of railway route from Kalgoorlie towards Port Augusta, which will save 5 miles in distance and£20,000 in cost? 1679 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - A survey of the proposed route is now being made, and the plans are in course of preparation. 1679 1679 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice - Is it true that the Queensland State Government have discontinued, or suspended for a period, State-assisted immigration? What are the reasons advanced for such discontinuance or suspension? 1679 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The honorable member's questions have been brought under the notice of the Premier of Queensland, who has just telegraphed in the following terms : - Immigration still proceeding, but no new applications will be received until our contract steamers have nearly completed transport of immigrants already approved. 1679 Inspector-General - Battleships and Aeroplanes 1679 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice - Is it true that the Inspector-General of the Commonwealth Military Forces is entitled to the privilege of a two-berth cabin on a steamer and a two-berth compartment on a train when travelling alone on duty by sea or rail on such journeys as involve night travelling? Is any other officer in the Commonwealth public or military service entitled to such a privilege ? Who recommended the privilege or allowance, and what were the reasons for granting it? 1680 KZG ALP 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The answers to the honorable member's questions are : - Yes. Not that I am aware of. 3. (a) The Inspector-General. To enable him to deal with secret and confidential papers with due privacy. Mr. WATKINS (for Dr. Maloney) asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice - The cost of one up-to-date battleship and one first-class cruiser respectively, complete in all details? The cost of one aeroplane to carry two men? How many aeroplanes could be purchased for one up-to-date battleship and one first-class cruiser respectively? 1680 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The answers to the honorable member's questions are : - Cost of battleship, about£2,000,000; cost of battle cruiser, e.g., H.M.A.S. Australia, about£2,000,000 ; cost of first-class cruiser (prior to introduction of battle cruiser), about £1,000,000. The cost of a modern biplane capable of carrying two men can be stated as£850, the spare parts necessary add£250, and the total cost therefore may be set down at£1,100. About 1,800 for one battleship or battle cruiser, and about900 for one first-class cruiser. 1680 1680 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - What are the names of the officers appointed as a Committee to recommend a definite scheme for the building of the Capital City? Upon what date was the Committee appointed ? Has the Committee's report been drafted? If so, will he lay a copy of the report upon the Table of the House? If not, will he state the date upon which the report will be ready? 1680 K5D ALP 1 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The answers to the honorable member's questions are : - Colonel D. Miller, Secretary, Department of Home Affairs, Chairman ; Lieut. -Colonel P. T. Owen, Director-General of Works; Mr. C. R. Scrivener, Director of Commonwealth Lands and Surveys; Mr. G. J. Oakeshott, Commonwealth Works Director for New South Wales;Mr. J. S. Murdoch, Architect, Department of Home Affairs; and Mr. Thos. Hill, Commonwealth Works Director for Victoria. Twenty-seventh June, 1912. 4, and 5. The exhibition of the competitive designs in Melbourne and Sydney has only recently been completed. Reproductions of the premiated and other designs are now being made for the information and guidance of the Committee, who have been instructed by me to exercise the utmost expedition in completing their work. 1680 1680 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - If he will consider the following resolution passed by the Senate on 31st July, 1912 : - " That, in accordance with section 22 of the Electoral Act, the distribution be disapproved of and referred back to the Commissioners with an intimation that due consideration does not appear to have been given to the diversity of interest and the absence of means of communication between the districts of Mount Magnet and Cue and the other portions of the proposed Division "D" and that the Commissioners be requested to make the distribution on the basis of exising enrolment and not by way of anticipation, so as to give each division as nearly as is practicable an equal number of electors " ? Whether this resolution, intimating as it does, that the distribution of electorates made by the Commissioners, was not in accord with the views of the Senate in certain particulars, is not a direction to the Commissioners as to the manner in which they should carry out their duties, and consequently is an infringement of section 22 of the Electoral Act? Whether in asking the Commissioners to make a fresh distribution, the Government will omit all reference as to the manner in which they shall carry out their statutory duties in making a fresh distribution? 1680 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The matter to which the honorable member's questions refer is within the province of the Minister of Home Affairs, who has asked for my advice in relation to it, and to whom my opinion has been forwarded to-day. From this the following extract is taken : - The Minister for Home Affairs forwards for advice the following minute by the Chief Electoral Officer : - " I desire to bring under the Minister's notice the terms of the amendment moved by Senator Henderson and carried by the Senate, in relation to the proposals of the Electoral Commissioners for Western Australia ; and to suggest that, in view of the provisions of Part III. of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902-11, the Attorney-General's advice be obtained as to the correct legal procedure. It is presumed that the motion for the adoption of. the report may be taken to have been rejected ; but there would appear to be some doubt whether the Act contemplates that the Commissioners should when called upon to prepare a fresh distribution, receive or act upon directions." The resolution as carried by the Senate was as follows : - " That in accordance with section 22 of the Electoral Act, the distribution be disapproved of and referred back to the Commissioners with an intimation that due consideration does not appear to have been given to the diversity of interest and the absence of means of communication between the districts of Mount Magnet and Cue and the other portions of the proposed Division "D," and that the Commissioners be requested to make the distribution on the basis of existing enrolment and not by way of anticipation, so as to give each division as nearly as is practicable an equal number of electors." Section 22 of the Electoral Act is as follows : - "22. -(1.) If either House of Parliament passes a resolution disapproving of any proposed distribution, or negatives a motion for the approval of any proposed distribution, the Minister may direct the Commissioners to propose a fresh distribution of the State into divisions. " (2.) The Commissioners shall thereupon reconsider the matter, and forthwith propose a fresh distribution, but for that purpose it shall not be necessary to cause the action provided by section 17 of this Act to be taken." The Senate's resolution is clearly a resolution disapproving of the distribution proposed by the Commissioners, and enables the Minister to direct the Commissioners to prepare a fresh distribution. The Senate, in its resolution, has stated reasons for the disapproval, and has requested the Commissioners to alter the distribution in a certain way. The Commissioners are not bound to comply with any such request. It is obviously convenient, however, that the Commissioners should be aware, not merely of the bare fact of the disapproval, but of the particular matters disapproved of and the reasons; and the Senate's resolution appears to be designed to that end. In my opinion, the only direction which the Minister should give to the Commissioners is a direction to propose a fresh distribution. But he should send them, for their information, a copy of the resolution of the Senate, and the debate thereon. 1681 1681 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - Are there any means of redress for the technical error availed of by the employers in the supposed registration of the Australian Actors' Union, such error being made in the Registrar's Department. The application for the cancellation of the registration of the Australian Actors' Union was heard by Mr. Justice Higgins in the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration on 1st August, 1912. The applicants were J. C. Williamson Ltd., George Marlow Ltd., William Anderson, Frederick Aydon (on behalf of Rickards' trustees), and Brennan's Amphitheatres Ltd.? Will the Attorney-General read the decision of Mr. Justice Higgins and state the best course to pursue and prevent any further error of such a character? 1681 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are : - No means are at the disposal of the Department to redress the error. As to the means at the disposal of the parties, I am not in a position to advise. I have read a report of the decision. The error was one of inadvertence, and it is not likely to be repeated. The question of amending the law is receiving consideration. 1681 1681 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDOUGALL asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether his attention has been drawn to the statement which appeared in the press to the effect " That the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank had been asked by the Prime Minister to recommend some one for the position of Deputy-Governor of the Bank?" Did the Prime Minister agree that the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, as a condition to his acceptance of the position, should be considered in the appointment of a DeputyGovernor? Have the Government delegated their powers to the Governor of the Bank in the matter of selecting and appointing a Deputy-Governor ? 1681 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The answer to all the honorable member's questions is " No." 1681 1681 KQT 0 0 MCDOUGALL, John Mr McDOUGALL asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - What was the estimated cost of the telephone line between Heywood and Dartmoor? What were the revenue estimates? What is the distance between Heywood and Dartmoor ? What is the estimated cost of erecting a telephone line between Dartmoor and Mumbannar ? What are the revenue estimates? What is the distance between Dartmoor and Mumbannar? Is there a difference in the estimated cost per mile of erecting the lines mentioned ? If there is a difference, what is the explanation ? 1681 K8L ALP 1 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - The following information has been furnished by the Deputy Postmaster-General, Melbourne : - The estimated cost of erecting the telephone line between Heywood and Dartmoor was£413 4s.11d. The estimated annual revenue from the telephone line between Heywood and Dartmoor was £41 12s. 6d. The distance between Heywood and Dartmoor is 265 miles. The estimated cost of erecting a telephone line between Dartmoor and Mumbannar is£198 10s.9d. The estimated annual revenue in connexion with the line between Dartmoor and Mumbannar is£109s. 5d. The distance between Dartmoor and Mumbannar is 5 miles 43 chains. The estimated cost of the erection of the Dartmoor-Mumbannar line is higher than the estimated cost for the Dartmoor-Heywood telephone line. The reason for the higher estimated cost in the case of the Dartmoor-Mumbannar line is as follows : - The Dartmoor-Heywood line is constructed for J of a mile on existing poles, for 7 miles on new poles, for 14! miles on trees, and for 4 miles on fences. The estimate for the Dartmoor-Mumbannar line provides for the line to be erected on new poles for the whole distance, viz., 5 miles 43 chains. It will thus be seen that the Dartmoor-Heywood line is a part cheaply constructed line, and the DartmoorMumbannar line is a standard all-pole line. 1682 supply In Committee of Supply: 1682 Casual Labour in Commonwealth Service - Day Labour - Public Works Expenditure - Public Works Committee - Federal Territory and Capital - Loan and Trust Funds - Re-votes - Post and Telegraph Department : General Post Office, Sydney : Extension of Telegraph and Telephone Facilities : Perth General Post Office - Defence Works - Commonwealth Buildings in Melbourne - Acceptance of Australian Tenders for Commonwealth Work - Northern Territory : Expenditure : Railway Construction. Division 1 (Home Affairs), £151,372- 1682 3.15 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Honorable members who- came into this Parliament in the early days of Federation, will remember that, in order to enable works to be carried out in the Commonwealth, it has always been the practice to take up the consideration 'of the Works and Buildings Estimates immediately after the Budget statement. 1682 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Are you quite sure about that? Do you mean after the delivery of the Budget, or after the debate on the Budget? 1682 F4N ALP 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - It has been the practice, almost, I think, without exception, to take these Estimates immediately after the Budget; but, of course, if the question is going to be contested, I think the Opposition must be heard on the matter. It would, however, be a very great convenience if we could discuss and deal with these Estimates even before the debate on the Budget takes place. In recent years, as I pointed out when making the Budget' statement, it has become more urgent than ever that an early opportunity should be given to honorable members to consider and pass the Works and Buildings Estimates, so that the works may be proceeded with. Honorable members have only to look at the aggregate amount set down for these purposes to see that, if we are to make headway as the country desires, we must get an early expression of opinion from this Committee, and from Parliament as a whole, authorizing the various Ministers to proceed with the works outlined in these pages. It is for this reason that the Government have taken the course of bringing these Estimates immediately before the Committee in order to 'expedite their passage. Although there is no desire on the part of the Government to restrict the consideration or discussion of any item whatever, it is hoped that all the items will be passed within a reasonable time. I shall ask the co-operation and concurrence of as many honorable members as may view the matter in die same light as I do, in a suggestion that they should restrict their criticism to within as short a space of time as possible. 1682 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON -YOU ask us to do that on. every measure, now. 1682 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I am sure the honorable member for Lang will not object to my making a request. That is all I am doing. I am not here to complain of the Opposition discussing, or criticising, or voting on, these items; but I am sure there is no intention on the part of any honorable member to delay the passage of the Estimates which are necessary to enable the works of the Commonwealth to be carried out. Ministers will be' ready at all times to give all the information they have in their possession regarding the items as they come before the Committee. I move - That item No. 1, ^8,500, be agreed to. 1682 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The course which I propose to follow is this : I shall allow a general debate on the first item. We shall then deal with the items in the Estimates individually. 1682 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The first question before us is raised by the suggestion of the Prime Minister, that the Works Estimates should be taken at this stage of our proceedings. That course is contrary to the usual practice, and to precedents followed elsewhere. But it is a course which has been followed, with good reason I must admit, on more than one occasion, even during the present Parliament. There are a number of works' which .can be proceeded with more .expeditiously if ' parliamentary sanction can be ' obtained for them at an early date. But, while that is true, it must also be remembered, on the other hand, that these works are subsidiary and closely related to some of the most important, if not all the important, propositions which the Government are submitting to Parliament. They are, in many cases, intimately connected with the policy of the Government. The questions which are at issue in this general debate necessarily include the whole of the particular propositions which the Works Estimates are intended to authorize. As a consequence, a debate on the first item of these Estimates, commences the discussion in this House of the whole of the financial proposals of the Government, embraces within it the whole sphere covered by these Works Estimates, most of them subsidiary, in many cases, to what may be termed the general policy of the country. In the remaining instances, they are subsidiary to, and in harmony with, the particular policy which a Government may be seeking to introduce, or to continue. Consequently, upon the first item, the House has free scope in regard to all the items which appear in the Estimates. The whole of this volume is open to criticism. It must be admitted that on many grounds such questions are capable of being more satisfactorily dealt with when the enormous expenditure which is entailed by the carrying out of these proposals is taken into account, together with the discussion of principles. Otherwise, it must be at once apparent that no matter what practical advantages there are in getting the Works Estimates, so to speak, out of the way - getting them authorized - having the Departments instructed to proceed with them ; whatever practical advantages may accrue from the adoption of that course, there are, notwithstanding, grave disabilities, owing to the fact that by this method of procedure discussion tends to become more speculative than practical. The House will have authorized the execution of the works giving effect to the Budget, which is afterwards to be debated. 1683 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - We did this for the honorable member's Government. 1683 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I have said 'that this course has been followed on several occasions, and have acknowledged the practical advantage arising from it. But I am also pointing out the crippling effect of a debate on the' works schedules before the questions of principle and of policy to which they relate have been discussed. In several respects we are putting the cart before the horse. In other respects the horse is being put first, and is doing a great deal of useful service. One very important condition as to this debate is the order of procedure which the Prime Minister proposes to follow in regard to the Budget itself. If the Budget is to be postponed until the closing days - and almost the closing hours - of the session, as it was, I think, the year before last, debate upon it must become perfectly superfluous. 1683 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I undertake to bring on the Budget debate within a reasonable time. 1683 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Then it is the intention of the Prime Minister to proceed with the Budget debate at once? 1683 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Yes, early. 1683 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Subject to the necessary introduction of other measures, in order that Parliament may not come to a gap at the close of the Budget debate, I presume that the Prime Minister will postpone the chief items of business until that debate has been disposed of? 1683 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - After these. Estimates go through, the Budget will bethe first, and the continuous business of the House - unless, of course, it has to be interrupted for the transaction of some other necessary business. 1683 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - That assurance removes an objection that would naturally be taken if the practice which was allowed in very exceptional circumstances were permitted to encroach upon the ordinary procedure of Parliament, to the very grave injury of some of the most important interests of this country. That practice would enable the principles upon which the policy of the Government was founded to be discussed only after the works intended to give effect to those principles had been authorized. The Prime Minister's statement does, as far as possible, remove that objection as far as is consistent with the immediate taking in hand of the practical proposals before us. 1683 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I pledge myself to do what I have stated. 1683 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Of course, I accept the Prime Minister's word without any question and without a pledge. The particular proposals before us in regard to Works will give the Minister of Home Affairs an opportunity - which I hope he will take - of answering certain questions recently put to him, most of which are based upon newspaper statements. 1684 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Those matters are not in his Department. ' They relate to the Post and Telegraph Department. 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I understood that the complaints were general, and covered the employment of day labour in any Departments. 1684 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - They relate to men employed in the trenches for undergrounding work, and that is under the Post and Telegraph Department. 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - Of course, it is, in one sense. 1684 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The same applies in all the Departments. 1684 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - That is what the honorable member's motion says, but these works are under the Post and Telegraph Department. 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I have not noticed even that, but have noticed that by letter and otherwise - including some verbal statements - complaints have been made. I am far from saying that these statements are to be accepted without question. 1684 K5D ALP 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - Hear, hear ! 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - I am not insinuating that. But a reply is certainly called for. The Minister of Home Affairs will admit - and I speak merely on account of his replies to previous questions - that in his Department at present there are being employed a larger number of persons than at any previous period in the history of the Commonwealth. He will admit that the terms of payment for services rendered are higher than they have ever previously been.' He will admit that there is a great eagerness to obtain Commonwealth employment. When, therefore, a number of private citizens - men of business, men of observation - agree in stating, from what they Have personally observed, that the officers in charge are not obtaining from the men employed the work which they have been accustomed to give under other conditions, a reply is called for. 1684 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'malley - They have not made such a charge. There has been no charge made. People have been saying that we are doing too much work. 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - The Minister is relying upon the word "charge." I am not even putting the matter as strongly as that. These are statements which have been made, authoritatively, and by responsible people. What I am asking is simply that there shall be a reasonable reply to these inquiries, a statement that the Minister is satisfied that he is obtaining for this Commonwealth, which employs him, proper service from the men whom he employs, and his assurance that every safeguard is taken to insure; that a fair return is given. 1684 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - What does the honorable member assert that the charge is? 1684 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - It is that owing either to laxity or indifference or want of vigilance, on the part of inspectors, men are seen* idling their time away when they ought to* be employed, and when they have nothing visibly to excuse their idling. These are the: statements, which I see repeated on every, hand. We are at the very outset of the debate on the Works Estimates, and the Minister should take advantage of the proper opportunity thus afforded him to put himself and his Department right. 1684 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- <rA statement like that just made by the Leader of the Opposition - based on assertions made in-, the -public press, or on private information! that he may have at his disposal - that Ministers are not exercising due care in the expenditure of public money, and that ment employed by the Government are not giving in labour the equivalent of the wages received by them, certainly calls for an reply. Let me say at once that this Government does not knowingly employ anyone from whom it is believed an equivalent in the way of labour is not being obtained.'! for wages paid. That has been, and will continue to be, the policy of this Government. As to our sheltering any one in the Service, either because of his political'opinions or 'because of the fear of something happening to this Government if his*, services be not retained, such a consideration has never been taken into account, and never shall be, so far as the present Administration are concerned. I wish the Committee and the country to know that the* Government intend to continue the POliCY of day labour just so long as it is commensurate with the public welfare, and as- - long as they can by that means do better than is possible by any other reasonable- system of carrying out public works. The Government, however, are not called upon-, to reply to any mere tittle-tattle, or any attack made upon them by way of innuendo or otherwise, regarding the manner in which, they are carrying out public works. Our - record is before the country, and I repeat that we shall not employ, or retain, in the- Public. Service any person who is not giving in labour the equivalent of the Commonwealth money paid to him. 1685 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - But how do the Government know whether they are getting the equivalent of their money? 1685 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - That can be determined only by our responsible officers. The Minister in charge of each Department is responsible to this House, and if any Minister fails in his duty - if he fails to conserve the public interest and the public money - then we, as a Government, fail. It is far better that the Government should fail as a whole than that any discredit should be brought upon the Commonwealth generally. The charge to which reference has been made has to be proved, but our policy is that we must receive in labour the equivalent of all wages paid to every employé, and that policy applies not only to casual labour, but to the permanent service. 1685 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The Prime Minister's maxims, so far as they go, are excellent, and his clear and explicit statement as to the principles which guide him and his colleagues in conducting all these great public works, is a gain to the controversy now proceeding on this question. It was due to the country that the Government should enunciate a doctrine so clear and business-like as that to which the right honorable gentleman has just given expression. Here we are about to vote£3,000,000 of public moneys for the carrying out of public works, and just as the people outside have to work hard for their money and to spend it economically, so every man in the Government employ has a right to earn the money which he receives. If that principle is observed then the pay should at least be generous and adequate for the work performed. That is a sound doctrine, with which no one will quarrel, but I venture to suggest to the Prime Minister that he still leaves quite untouched the whole field of controversy. He has not dealt with the whole question as put in a nutshell by the honorable member for Herbert, when he asked, " How do the Government know that they are receiving the equivalent of the wages paid?" We have no proof that everything is proceeding satisfactorily. We have, on the one side, statements made in all seriousness, and nothing in reply, save statements that for the credit of the Government had better not be made by the Minister of Home Affairs. He does him self no credit by the way he answers these queries from time to time. 1685 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - Why is his Department always singled out? 1685 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - For the same reason that the Public Works Department in each State is always singled out for criticism of this kind. It is the spending Department. 1685 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - His Department does not carry out postal work. 1685 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Does it not carry out the undergrounding of the telephone wires? 1685 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - No. 1685 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Then all I have to say is that it ought to be carrying out that work. 1685 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - That shows that the honorable member has confidence in the Minister of Home Affairs. 1685 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - No; but the fact that such work is not carried out by the Department of Home Affairs seems to me to show that there is something wrong in the relationships of these Departments. In normal circumstances - I do not say that this principle should apply to every detail of construction work - the Department of Home Affairs should carry out all the large construction works of the Commonwealth. I suggest to the Minister of Home Affairs that he should explain to the Committee all the details regarding the carrying out of these works. He should tell us how they are being carried out, and what power he gives his inspectors. Everything depends on the powers possessed by them, for nothing so demoralizes men as to cease to have any respect for those who are placed over them. If the statements are true that men engaged in certain occupations go over the heads of their inspectors and make application to the Minister to be heard from time to time, then such a want of discipline is calculated to bring into contempt the whole system of day labour. There is only one way in which work can be carried out by day labour. I have had something to do with the day-labour system in my time, and have had to deal with public criticism of the character now being directed against the Department of Home Affairs. In connexion with the undergrounding of the telephone and telegraph wires in New South Wales many years ago, the honorable member for Hume, then a member of the State Parliament, asked for a Select Committee, and his request was readily agreed to. The Government granted a Select Committee, taking care, of course, that its composition was fair, and an exhaustive inquiry was made into all the details of that work. 1686 JSM 0 0 BROWN, Thomas Mr Thomas Brown - And that inquiry converted the honorable member for Hume to the day-labour principle. 1686 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Yes ; the honorable member for Hume has often said that that inquiry converted him to the day-labour principle. We granted him the inquiry with the greatest cordiality, and helped him with it from first to last. If this kind of criticism is going to continue concerning the public works of the Commonwealth, the sooner we have an inquiry the better for all concerned, and especially for the Minister. If day labour can stand on its own against the contract system, the sooner he demonstrates that to the public the better. That was the issue decided by the Select Committee in New South Wales to which I' have referred, so far as that work; went. I do not say that it ought to be the issue here; but 1 do say that the Minister is entitled to tell the Committee the precise methods of business that are applied to the construction of these great works. 1686 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - He will do that. 1686 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I mean in regard to the employment of day labour in their construction. We require to know whether inspectors, for instance, are given sole control over the men employed under them, and are instructed to see that they do their work. We should be told, also, whether it is a fact that men may leave their work at any time they think fit to consult the Prime Minister, or to ask that they might do so. 1686 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - They never came to me. 1686 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The statement made is that the right honorable gentleman's secretary directed them to the Postmaster-General. That was a very proper proceeding, if he did so; but the question is how did they come to be at the door of the right honorable gentleman's Department ? 1686 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I cannot say anything about that. 1686 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That is the very thing we require to know. It is as much in the interests of the Government as in the interests of the public that discipline in the carrying out of public works should be put upon a proper footing if we are to continue the construction of public works' by day labour. I admit that there are reasons why the undergrounding of telephone and telegraph wires should be carried out by day labour. It is obvious that work like that under the footpaths of a city is carried on under great difficulties. The foundations of buildings have to be considered, and great care must be taken in connexion with all sorts of pipes for gas, water, and sewage. There are, in consequence, a great many risks attending work of this kind, and where it is undertaken by contractors they must make provision to guard against such risks. In the circumstances, it may ' be better - I do not say it is - and more economical for the Departments concerned to take the risks and carry out such work themselves. The fullest inquiry should be made into all these matters, and the most complete statements made to the House respecting them. We should not have the Minister of Home Affairs burlesquing the matter by making statements which reflect no credit upon him. After all, the spending of hundreds of thousands of pounds of the people's money is a serious matter, and should be treated seriously, and a full and complete statement of what is taking place should be made to the House. 1686 KZA East Sydney 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST . - I have had no personal charge of work carried out by day labour for a Government, but I have been a keen observer of the way in which such work has been carried out., I believe that the Government Departments receive good value for money expended in that way. No better illustration of the difficulties involved in carrying out some Government works could be given than that mentioned by the honorable member for Parramatta. When it is necessary to make excavations in the streets of a city, no one can estimate what the requirements of the work will be. It is impossible," in such cases, for complete specifications to be drawn up before the work is undertaken. The only way in which such work can be carried out effectively and economically is by day labour under the supervision of departmental officers. With respect to the charges which have appeared in the press, honorable members opposite can quite understand that the Contractors' Association make it their business, through the people they have employed, and the journal they run, to condemn the day-labour system on every occasion. From the establishment of the system in New South Wales, twenty-five years ago, up to the present time, we have had the same condemnation of it from the same people. The reason is obvious ; because it interferes with their business. The honorable member for Illawarra recently quoted from a publication called Building, which is edited by a Mr. Taylor. We can quite understand that this gentleman must run the publication in the interests of . the Contractors Association. From the front to the last page of it he must do all he possibly can to make the day-labour system appear as bad as possible in the eyes of the public. 'When the conductor of such a publication can stoop so low as to publish an illustration of the residence recently purchased by the Prime Minister and describe in the next issue the house occupied by the Attorney-General, intimating his intention, if possible, to discover what kind of houses are occupied by the other members of the Government, it is not difficult to believe that he will publish anything which may belittle the day-labour system. From my experience and knowledge of contracts, I am satisfied that it would be unadvisable to abandon the day-labour system in the carrying out of Government works. In view of the extensive works which require to be carried out for the Commonwealth, I think it would be wise to appoint a Works Committee of some kind to report upon some of the big undertakings which confront us. A great deal of information might be obtained as the result of inquiries by honorable members who have a knowledge of such matters. Their reports would give members ' generally greater confidence that the money voted for the Works Department would be expended advantageously. I wish to make a short reference to the condition of affairs in the Sydney Post-office. I see that on these Estimates a vote of £500 is put down for works in connexion with that building-. We might just as well put the money in the gutter, because that amount is ridiculously inadequate to carry out the improvements which require to be made there. The Sydney newspapers have for some time past been directing the attention of the' authorities and the public to the fact that it is impossible, under existing conditions, for people to be properly served in that post-office. 'A boy sent to purchase j£i worth of stamps has to wait for over an hour before he can be served. Owing to lack of space, the same thing may be said of other branches of the office. I hope that something will shortly be done to relieve the existing congestion. I do not know whether I shall be in order, on these Estimates, in referring to another matter connected with the post-office. I allude to the facilities afforded for the sale of stamps. I have said that a person requiring to purchase £I worth of stamps at the Sydney Post-office has to wait for about an hour before he can be served, because of the crowd at the counter. This difficulty might be obviated if more licences were issued for the sale of stamps. There appears to be a desire to save the 2 J per cent, commission paid to persons who are given a licence to sell stamps ; but if I were Postmaster-General, 1 should issue a great many more of these licences. I believe that the damage to and loss of stamps by persons authorized to sell them would cover the commission, and the Department would gain, rather than lose, by extending these facilities for the purchase of stamps by the public. Referring again to the Sydney Post-office, I repeat my hope that something will be done to remedy the congestion existing there. The building was commenced! about forty years ago, when it was impossible to foresee the growth of Sydney. It is strange that the Government do not provide much better facilities for the transaction of post and telegraph business than exist at present in the Sydney Post-office. I hope that my remarks will have the effect of causing the Government to make some movement, because the longer the delay, the greater the cost, and an opportunity is presented now which, as is known to the Government officials, may not again occur. 1687 KFJ Swan 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST .- I am glad that the consideration of these Estimates is being undertaken at once, because, under our financial system, we cannot afford to wait until the main Appropriation Bill is passed, half of the year having then elapsed. Although the course now pursued is not quite so regular as we should like if the conditions were different, the Government are, I think, acting wisely in submitting these Estimates at the first opportunity. Doubtless some interest is taken away from the general Estimates, and we are not able to give very much time to these Works Estimates, inasmuch as we are all anxious to see these public works put in hand immediately. The difficulty that presents itself to my mind, as it has doubtless presented itself to others, in considering the Estimates, is that of ascertaining what money there really is in the hands of the Government, how much is being spent, and what balance is likely to remain at the end of the year. This difficulty, as I shall show, is real, and in no sense imaginary. We desire more light from the Treasurer. 1688 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I shall give it to the right honorable member. 1688 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The officers at the Treasury are, I know, experienced, capable, and reliable, and we are fortunate in having such men to look after our financial affairs. 1688 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Let me know what is wanted, and I shall endeavour to give the information. 1688 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - It would be of great advantage if there were a balance-sheet prepared showing the ordinary revenue and expenditure - moneys in hand from all sources, including loan and trust funds - and our liabilities for the year on account of all services, in addition to the amount we propose to expend in the ordinary way. 1688 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - What liabilities, may I ask? 1688 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The expenditure from loan funds, trust funds, and such like. 1688 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - What for? 1688 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - In order that we may know how much money the Government have in hand, how much they are going to spend, how they intend to spend it, and what balance they expect at the end of the year. I do not make these suggestions in any unfriendly spirit, but in order that we may have as much information as possible. The estimated expenditure on " Additions, New Works, and Buildings" is .£3)985,921. On the construction of the Fleet it is proposed to expend £1,196,829; but this amount, although it is shown as a charge against revenue, is money already in hand. This is a balance from the Trust Account, and has already been charged as expenditure; it is shown as expenditure again, but, as honorable members will see, it is put right by being included with other moneys in the deduction of £2,261,541 from funds accumulated in previous years. The annual votes amount to £2,789,092, which, together with the special appropriation .for the construction of the Fleet, brings the total to £3,985,921. The annual vote under the control of the Department of Home Affairs amounts to £991,647 ; and of the Postmaster- General, to £830,000 ; and here I may point out that this is not the real amount of money that the Postmaster-General is provided with for the year to spend. He has £429,460 in the Trust Fund as a sort of nest-egg ; so that he will be able to expend £1,259,460. Unless honorable members look closely into these accounts, they will not observe that £429,460 is already appropriated and available for the Postmaster-General in the Trust Fund. 1688 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I made that very clear in my Budget-speech. 1688 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The annual vote under the control of the Treasury is £4,400; the Defence Department, £900,925 ; and the Department of External Affairs, £62,120 ; making a total for the annual votes, as I said before, of £2,789,092. We all listened with much attention to the Budget-speech, but it is not possible to keep in our minds everything that is said, although, of course, we can refer to the official report ; and the accounts on their face show clearly that this £429,460 is in a Trust Fund, and available, as well as the £830,000. I am sorry to say that during the past year a good many sums voted have not been expended. Perhaps this is not easy to avoid, but every effort should be made to expend money on the purposes for which it is voted. There is nothing more unsatisfactory to the people generally than to find money voted for, say, a post-office or a drill-hall, and the work not to be carried out. Post-office buildings are, of course, very necessary, but we find that we are asked to re-vote £74,607 under this head ; while, on Defence, the re-votes amount to £142,792 ; on Trade and Customs account, £1,678 ; and on lighthouses, £2,500. In regard to the lighthouses, not a penny of the money voted last year was spent. In connexion with quarantine, £18,000 has to be re-voted ; while in connexion with the Federal Capital and the stores on Darling Island, we have to re-vote £39,409. Altogether, last year there was £278,466 voted, and not spent, although the works are those in which the people generally take great interest. There is another direction in which I desire to see an improvement. I allude to the practice which exists of securing parliamentary votes, and not' spending them at all. My former reference was to the practice of inducing Parliament to authorize votes, and not spending the whole of them. Last year thirty-eight distinct separate votes were obtained for public buildings, not including post-offices - votes amounting to £51,291, in addition to forty-nine distinct separate votes for post-offices aggregating £37,046, making a total of £88,337, not a single penny of which was spent. 1689 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I thought the complaint was that the Government had spent too much ? 1689 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have not said a word in reference to the Ministry having expended too much. We might spend a hundred times as much as is being spent, and still be doing good. 1 make that statement without at all assenting to the proposition that we should extract a lot of money from the people that we can do without. But in reclaiming the wilderness and building up Australia and filling it with desirable people, I do not know how much could not be profitably expended. However, the fact remains that £88,337 was voted last year upon eighty-seven distinct separate works, not one single penny of which was expended. The Appropriation (Works and Buildings) Bill was assented to on the 17th November, 1911, seven and a half months before the end of the financial year. 1689 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Of course, some of the contracts were outrageously high. 1689 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - But none of these eighty-seven works was commenced. I do not wish to be too hard on the Department of Home Affairs, because I appreciate the troubles which are experienced by the Minister. I know that sometimes it is difficult to get plans out, to select a site, and to get a work put in hand quickly. But when I hear so much boasting about his Department being a " business Department," and when I am told that a new régime has been instituted, so that things are done very differently now from what they used to be, I am justified in calling attention to these matters. 1689 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - A new broom. 1689 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - If the Minister of Home Affairs did not boast so much about his " business capacity " I would not, perhaps, taunt him with the fact that last year votes were obtained for eighty-seven works, including forty-nine post-offices, and yet not a single penny was spent upon them. If I may be pardoned for being parochial for a moment, I may refer to my own State in this connexion. It seems to me that there is room for great dissatisfaction there, inasmuch as last year £28,888 was voted for nine works, including some post-offices, of which only £8,596 was expended. In addition £15,200 was voted for four Defence buildings and ten post-offices, but not a single penny was spent. Honorable members will realize that when the residents in sparsely-populated districts are told that a vote has been agreed to by Parliament for the erection of a post-office or other building in their locality, and when the whole year passes without anything being done, great dissatisfaction is caused. In Western Australia,£37,136 was voted last year for post-offices, but only £18,254 was spent. Similarly upon defence works £49,328 was voted, but only £18,780 was expended. In other words,£86,464 was voted for these two important services, and only£37,034 expended. Roughly speaking, therefore, no less a sum than £50,000 has unexpended. I hope that the Minister of Home Affairs will take a note of this matter, and insist that when Parliament votes money for specific works they shall be proceeded with as quickly as possible. In olden times we were not in a hurry to put public works in hand, because we used to be short of money ; but that is not the case now. There is now plenty of money available.. Every endeavour should be made to have works authorized by Parliament commenced at the earliest possible date. It is proposed to vote several amounts which are to be paid into the Trust Fund. That fund was brought into existence with the best of intentions, and principally to provide for trading accounts. For instance, in the matter of rifles, clothing, &c., a Department receives certain moneys for the goods which it sells. It is quite reasonable that a Department which runs trading accounts should desire that it should be debited with its ordinary expenditure and credited with its ordinary revenue, and that it should be paid for anything which it may manufacture or sell. Notwithstanding this, I think the time has arrived when Parliament and the Treasurer should devote serious attention to this Trust Fund. It is assuming altogether too big dimensions. Although we have the good fortune to possess officers of very great ability in the Treasury, the fund is now getting into a complicated condition. I have had to consult the Treasury several times to ascertain what this item or that item means. 1689 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - And the right honorable gentleman got an answer every time. 1689 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Yes, I received a full explanation every time, but it was not quite satisfactory to me. When I tell honorable members that the Trust Fund amounted to £i5,442>568 on -the 30th June last, they will see that the figures are getting very large. On the 30th June, 1911, there was £11,530,306 to the credit of the Trust Fund, and during the year there were receipts to the amount of £14,103,260. During the year, therefore, there was in the Trust Fund £25,633,566, while the expenditure was £10,190,998, leaving as a credit balance on the 30th June last the enormous sum of £i5,442>568- The majority of these heads on which the Trust Fund is based should be abolished. If they are not, the time will soon come when they will be abolished by the House, and a better system adopted, so that the Parliament will know what the amount in the Treasury is, how much the Government need to spend, and what balance they will have at the end of the year. Take, for instance, the expenditures on old-age pensions and Fleet construction. I cannot see any reason why these items should be included in the Trust Fund. They could just as well be managed without being in the fund. All that the Treasurer wants is a vote for the year, the same as he takes for anything else._ He should let the House know what he is doing, as he does with regard to railways and other works of construction. That plan would work better and avoid having these large amounts in the Trust Fund. 1690 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - That is a very subtle argument. 1690 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - There is nothing subtle about the matter. I am speaking from knowledge. I am making these remarks as much in the interests of the Government as I am in the interests of the country. 1690 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - It looks to me as if the right honorable gentleman wanted the surplus to go to the States. 1690 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - No; I may have something to say about that matter. There is no necessity for the Treasurer to pursue this system. I think that it keeps back information which should be clearly before Parliament. I hope that the honorable gentleman will see whether he cannot largely adopt my suggestion. Regarding telegraphs and telephones, this year there is available for expenditure £830,000 - but there is £429,460 in the Trust Fund, making a total of £1,259,460, instead of what I thought at first on looking at the Estimates, £830,000. This, I think, shows the difficulty of ascertaining the amount which is really available. It is hidden away in the Trust Fund. One can find the figures by searching the Budget-papers, and I have found them. At the same time I found the Loan Account; but if I had not made this search I would not have come across it. I was not aware that in the Loan Account there was a credit balance of £39,525. Take the Small Arms Ammunition Fund. This is a trading account, in which purchases and sales continually take place. There was an item °f £177>73I on the last Estimates, and there was a balance of £28,863 m the Trust Fund, making a total amount of £206,594 available for last year. I find an item of £12,600 on these Estimates, an item of £152,210 on the General Estimates, and, hidden away in the Trust Fund - not mentioned anywhere in these figures- a balance of £89,767, so that there is a total amount of £254,577 available to the Government for small arms ammunition. No honorable member could see the position by a mere inspection of the papers - he would have to ferret out the information. The amount of money which is available is not, I think, shown as clearly as it should be shown. Then, in regard to the Loan Account, unless one searches the Budget figures, he will not find anything about the Loan Account in the Estimates. Seven hundred thousand, pounds have been borrowed, and of that sum £660,475 have been spent. That is stated at page 65 of the Budget-papers. It is nowhere shown in the Estimates that there was a balance of £39,525 in the Loan Fund, and that the Treasurer had sPent £400,000 in the purchase of land and the erection of a building in London, £226,000 on the redemption of South Australian Treasury bills in connexion with the Northern Territory, and £34,476 on the South Australian railway from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta. There is an Act which authorizes the Government to borrow £2,460,476, namely, £600,000 for the purchase of land in the Federal Capital Territory, and doing work there ; £1,000,000 for the construction of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway ; £600,000 for the purchase of land and erection of buildings in London, and £226,000 for payments to South Australia. We only get this information by looking to the Act. We do not find it stated unless we examine the Budget-papers that only £700,000 of that sum has been borrowed yet. There is a balance of £39,525 to the credit of the Loan Fund. Nowhere is that shown as an asset. 1691 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We do not show any assets. 1691 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - It is shown in some of these Budget-papers. 1691 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We do not show liabilities and assets. 1691 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The Treasurer ought to show when he has cash. This sum of £39,525 is not mentioned in the Trust Fund. It is included amongst the balances, so I am informed, at the top of page 3 of the Budget-papers, and is included in the cash item of £1,694,035. Does the House realize that the expenditure of £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 on the trans-Australian railway is being left absolutely in the hands of the Minister of Home Affairs? No estimates of expenditure in connexion with the work have been placed before Parliament, and we know nothing as to the salaries to be paid, the number of men to be employed, what it is proposed to do, or what methods it is proposed to follow. The Treasury apparently has no knowledge of what is to be done by the Department of Home Affairs. In the States the day has long since passed when loan expenditure was allowed to pass without being scrutinized most carefully. 1691 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - That will be done here. 1691 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I do not know why the. Prime Minister permits the present arrangement to continue for a day. There should have been a statement regarding the expenditure on the Trans-Australian railway and all other works to be constructed out of loans. Such a statement should be put before Parliament immediately. 1691 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - That will be done. 1691 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The right honorable member's time has expired. 1691 KYV South Sydney 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY .- I draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that of the amount voted last year for expenditure on the Federal Capital, £31,000 was not spent. I ask the right honorable gentleman if the Government has any definite works policy in regard to the Federal Capital, or is it content to proceed in a slip-shod fashion, without formulating a policy ? This is not the way in which a great national undertaking should be dealt with. We have spent an enormous sum on resuming land in the Federal Territory, and have spent money on constructing roads and providing accommodation for those connected with the Military College. But the more settlement increases in the Territory, the more the value of the land there will increase. 1691 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We have got value for our money in the land that we have resumed. 1691 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - Yes ; but that land is not being put to its proper use. The honorable member for Swan mentioned a number of works for which money was voted and not spent, and in so doing put his finger upon the weak spot of the administration of the Home Affairs Department. Apparently the staff of the Department is not large enough to enable it to carry out all the works for which Parliament votes money. But the Government should see that money rated by Parliament is spent. The time has arrived when we should have a Works Committee and a works policy. What is the use of voting money if it is not to be spent? Last year there was a flourish of trumpets about the proposal to establish a timber-storing shed, and money was voted for the project, but nothing was spent, and this year we are asked to make another vote. We should have some explanation as to why the work is not carried out. Is not the Department capable of acquiring the necessary land, and constructing buildings for this project? If timber had been bought and stored, it would now be seasoning in anticipation of its use. I wish to know what the Department intends to do in regard to the Federal Capital. Competitive designs have been received and dealt with, but, apparently, nothing has been done towards planning the city. The Minister told me that plans could not be drawn until sites had been selected. That is moonshine. Plans could be drawn for the accommodation above the basement line of the various buildings. The Minister knows what buildings are needed, and what their capacity must be. Such buildings should be planned above the basement line, and when their sites have been chosen, basements can be built up to suit the plans. A large number of immigrants are now coming to the country, and we should give employment to all that can be employed to push on with necessary works. In Victoria of late a great many artisans have been out of work, and yet the Home Affairs Department has money which it cannot spend. Apparently there are not enough architects and' overseers. I hope that the Minister will enlarge his staff. Another matter to which I direct attention is the congestion at: the Sydney General Post. Office. In the stamp-selling room, persons stand at the counters five and six deep ; the telegraph despatch room is always full, and the telephone cabinets are always occupied, while many persons wait outside to get connexions. It is a scandal that the Government does not give greater conveniences to the public there. What is necessary is to resume land for the enlargement of the building. The alterations that have been made have bettered things a little, but there is still not enough room. I hope that we shall have a statement as to what is to be done. The Minister of Home Affairs told us last year about the brickworks he is going to provide for, but no preparation for the making of bricks has yet taken place. He was also going to provide lime works, cement works, sewerage works, and underground tunnels for telephone wires ; but nothing has been done. Indeed, grass is now growing on streets that have been formed. No doubt the Department's inaction is due to the desire to please the Victorian representatives in Parliament. I again appeal to the Prime Minister to say whether, in his opinion, the time has not arrived, seeing that we are spending so much money on buildings and works generally, to form a Public Works Committee in this House, the Committee to go through the plans, and see that the works are carried out properly. Its appointment, will be no reflection upon the Departments. 1692 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - All Public Works Committees are drag-anchors ; they are delay associations. If we had a Public Works Committee in this House, we should not be able to carry out one-tenth of the work that we do. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - That does not apply to New South Wales. 1692 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - It does; ask honorable members who know. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY -- I will compare the public works policy of New South Wales with that of this Government, as shown by the list of works read to-day by the honorable member for Swan as having been passed by this Parliament, and not even started yet. The Public Works Committee of New South Wales keep ahead of the work of the Parliament. 1692 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Does the honorable member mean a Public Works Department? 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - I mean a Public Works Committee that would report on any work before it was passed by this House, and say whether it was suitable or not. 1692 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I think it is absurd. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - Perhaps the honorable member has had no experience. It has saved the New South Wales Government millions of pounds. 1692 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We are dependent upon the Public Works officers to get the plans prepared. 1692 K5D ALP 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - The Public Works officers of the States. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - I am aware of it, and yet the Prime Minister says the public works policy of the States is not up to ours. 1692 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Nobody did anything until we came into power. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - The Government have not done very much in the last' year, seeing that so much money has been voted and that in some cases nothing whatever has been done. 1692 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The honorable member has not looked at the Estimates. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - I am accepting the statements of the honorable member for Swan. He has been through these Estimates more than I have, and I take his word for it. Is it not better to have a Committee of this House to go through any large work that is to be undertaken, and recommend it to this House, than to depend upon the officers of a certain Department, and on a certain Minister ? 1692 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr Wise - We have to depend on them afterwards to carry the work out. 1692 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - Any system will be preferable to the present one, which has hung up so many public works. I appeal to the Treasurer to give some consideration to the congested state of the Sydney Post-office. Something will have to be done there to cope with the business. When the question of establishing the Commonwealth Woollen Mills at Geelong comes before the Committee, I shall be only too pleased to utter a few well-chosen words upon it. 1692 KFP Wakefield ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - - I d° n°t share the anxiety of the honorable member for South Sydney about the slow progress of the Federal Capital. In my opinion, nearly e,very public work in the Commonwealth ought to have precedence over the work at that spot. This applies particularly to the work of extending, postal and telephonic facilities to outlying districts. I agree with the honorable member that the creation of a Public WorksCommittee in this House, on the lines of the Committee that has been in existence in New South Wales for many years, would be a distinct improvement on present methods. Individual members know very little indeed about the details of public expenditure, for which every member of the House ought to feel an individual responsibility. The public expenditure of the Commonwealth does not merely concern the Ministry of the day and the particular Minister controlling the Department in which the expenditure is incurred, but each individual member of the House ought to feel a distinct responsibility regarding it. I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say that the policy of the Government was to continue the day-labour system so long as they were satisfied that they obtained a fair return for the expenditure involved. We must all agree that that is a proper policy, but we want to be assured that it is carried out. I am not at all satisfied that it is. Reference was made to-day to the allegations made recently by the Argus, and the Minister of Home Affairs characterized them as a tissue of lies. We want more than the word of the Minister in this matter. We require a stronger refutation to the statements that have been made, not only in the Argus, but repeatedly in the public press in different parts of the Commonwealth. I shall be dissatisfied, and I hope that a majority of the members of this House will refuse to be satisfied, until the statements are refuted by a complete inquiry into the work, and an examination of the officers who are responsible for it. I am not opposed to day labour, but I am very strongly opposed to day labour as it is conducted to-day, because we have no check on it at all. 1693 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I hope that is not true. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Unfortunately, it is absolutely true. Some honorable members on the other side referred to experiences in New South Wales, but that was a very unfortunate reference, because public inquiry into the question in that State a few years ago established beyond the shadow of a doubt that political interference had come into play, and that works conducted on the day-labour principle were costing 50, 60, and even 100 per cent. more than they ought to cost. The matter as it stands to-day is a public scandal. 1693 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - The honorable member is referring, I suppose, to uncongenial manual labour that he never does himself. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am referring to manual labour and the inefficiency of oversight and control, which is responsible in respect of some of the public works to-day in the Commonwealth for a cost of anything up to 50 per cent., and in some cases 100 per cent., more than the works ought to cost. 1693 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - In the Commonwealth? 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Yes. 1693 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Well, make a specific charge. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am making the statement that these alleged facts, are creating a great deal of concern. 1693 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Get down to bedrock. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am glad that honorable members opposite have brought me to that point, because I wanted to come to it. These allegations are made. I cannot prove them, but honorable members opposite, by their conduct, are showing the weakness and rottenness of existing conditions. They cannot prove whether these allegations are right or wrong. I challenge them to say if they can prove that the published statements are not correct- 1693 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - We are not making them. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - This is a serious matter, and I want to probe it to the bone. I am qualifying my charge by saying that I am not in a position to prove- the allegations or to disprove them; but I ought to be. As a member of this House, I want to be in a position of proving their truth or otherwise. 1693 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Let the honorable member go and have a look at the men at work. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I have seen this sort of thing with my own eyes. From observation I can say that what is alleged is absolutely true. 1693 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - The honorable member is making the charge, then? 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Yes, and I say that it is absolutely true; but I want to know to what extent it is true. 1693 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Will the honorable member tell us what he saw? 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I have seen loafing on many occasions. 1693 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Where? 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I want an inquiry. 1693 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Let the honorable member bring a charge, and he will get his inquiry soon enough. 1693 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - An honorable member has just handed me a statement made by the Minister of Works in New South Wales. I have not time to read it to the Committee, but know what it contains. It is an eloquent statement. 1694 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - What did the honorable member see himself? 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I am not going to be led off the track. Honorable members opposite have to. answer this question, not only to this House, but to the electors of the Commonwealth. 1694 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - This is a cowardly insinuation on a body of manual workers. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The honorable member for Maranoa does not run his station on these lines. 1694 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - -What station ? 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The honorable member's own station. 1694 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page -i never had one. I wish I had. I rise to order. The honorable member for Wakefield has accused me of owning a station. I do not own a single sheep - not even a goat or a dog. 1694 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That is not a point of order. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I could give an ample illustration which would implicate my honorable friend, but the Chairman would call me to order if I did. I challenge honorable members opposite to determine the truth of these charges by a proper investigation made by a Committee appointed by this House. If, as the result of such an inquiry, it is proved that I have made statements which turn out not to be founded on fact, I will make a very ample apology, and no one will regret that they have been made more than I shall. 1694 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - After the honorable member has crucified the men. 1694 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member is slandering a body of hardworking men. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - No; I am standing by the hardworking men who have to carry the loafers on their backs. 1694 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - What does the honorable member know about it? He never did a day's work in his life. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I know enough about it to be sure that the people of the Commonwealth will want an explanation. 1694 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I should like to have the honorable member in one of those trenches. I would see that he did not straighten his back if I were in charge. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Let me remind honorable members opposite of the statement made by Mr. Griffith, the Minister of Public Works in New South Wales, the other day. Similar statements have been made repeatedly by him. 1694 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - What is the statement? 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The honorable member knows what it is, and he knows the reason for it also. I want a proper inquiry to be made. I have not seen a single officer in the Commonwealth service concerning this day-labour business, because I felt it to be my duty not to do so. 1694 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I have. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I want to get my information through this House. We shall see in a few days what the attitude of honorable members opposite is, and whether they are going to give us the Committee of Inquiry which we want. 1694 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The honorable member has said nothing to justify the appointment of such a Committee. 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The honorable member knows that he can get justification from thousands of men in the streets, and from officers in the Department. No one knows that better than the unions. The best men in the unions are prepared to-day to demand that a full investigation shall take place, and that an alteration shall be brought about immediately. 1694 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - What unions? 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I believe that this loose way of doing business is costing this country tens of thousands a year - I might say hundreds of thousands. I will give one illustration from my own State. A little while ago Parliament authorized the construction of a railway to Brown's Well. Tenders were called for. 1694 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - Was that a Commonwealth work ? 1694 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - No, but it was a work undertaken under Labour administration. In South Australia the Legislative Council always insists on the insertion of a clause in a Railway Bill providing for construction after public tenders have been called for. The Government Department tendered for the work at £155,000. A contractor tendered for £105,000, and another contractor for £89,000. The day after the contract was let the contractor who was undertaking the work advertised in the Adelaide newspapers for men to build the railway. He announced that he was ready to pay1s. a day more than the highest wage paid by the Labour Government in South Australia on its own works. 1695 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Some of the contractors in South Australia urged the labourers to induce the Labour Government to raise wages. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - No one is complaining about the increase of wages. They have been increased again and again, and very properly so. But the complaint is that, although wages are increased, men are giving a lesser return for a higher wage. That is the explanation of the financial position in regard to Commonwealth works. It is due to the added cost which the people have to meet in consequence of the existing bad administration and control. 1695 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - Is that railway finished yet? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The work is proceeding very rapidly, and will be finished a great deal sooner than the Government could have finished it. The men will be paid higher wages also, but there will not have been any loafing. That is the explanation of the whole business. Moreover, the contractor will not endure any political interference. 1695 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Will the honorable member say how much work will have to be done after the railway is supposed to be completed? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The man who is building that line is just as efficient as the best Government officers in the whole Commonwealth, State or Federal. I know that from the work which he has done previously. I am well aware that there are some kinds of work that it is inadvisable to have done by public tender. Undergrounding work such as that which has been referred to this afternoon is of that character, because the conditions are such that no officer can possibly estimate what work of the kind is likely to be worth. Consequently, if it were to be let by public tender, the departmental officers in making an arrangement with a contractor would have to allow, a very wide margin to cover contingencies. But there are other works possibly the greater proportion of public works undertaken by the Commonwealth - that could be let by public tender. Why not do, as has, been done by South Australia for many years - call for tenders for these works, and allow the Department to tender with outside contractors? 1695 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - That is fair. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It is, and until such a test is instituted, it is impossible for us to know what sort of deal we are getting. 1695 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - The question is whether 9s. a day is a munificent wage to pay a man for working in the trenches? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The question is how much work the Government get for their 9s. a day? It would be better to pay 10s. or 12s. a day for good men than to employ wasters at 8s. a day. 1695 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - With that wage you would probably get good men. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It is, in that respect, that a private contractor has an advantage over the Government. He will pay higher wages, and employ only good men. Very often, however, in connexion with Government works, when you have obtained all the good men that you can secure, you have to take on the duffers and the wasters. Is it true, as is alleged, that these wasters are put on because some member of Parliament interferes - because of political influence? 1695 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - How many times has the honorable member interfered in that way? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I have never done so, and never shall do so ; but I know of many cases where members of Parliament, and even Ministers of the Crown, have interfered. 1695 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - In connexion with Commonwealth works? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - No; I have known such a thing to occur in more than one State, but I do not know what is the position in connexion with Commonwealth works, and I cannot get to know. 1695 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Why should not a member of Parliament recommend a man for employment if he knows him to be a good worker? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I have no objection to that, but I do object to a member of Parliament, when a man has been sacked because he is a waster, going to the responsible Minister and asking him to reinstate that man. 1695 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - We all object to that. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - It is done. 1695 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Where? 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I want the Minister of Home Affairs to give us a chance to prove where it is done. 1695 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Well, I shall say that it is an absolute falsehood. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I will not take the honorable member's statement. 1695 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - And I will not take the honorable member's statement. 1695 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I will not take the Minister's statement, and have no right to be expected to do so. The CHAIRMAN. It is the practice of the House for an honorable member to accept the statement of another honorable member. 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Then I will accept the Minister's statement, but I shall ask the Prime Minister to give us an opportunity to prove its correctness or otherwise. This is a very serious matter, affecting not only members of Parliament, but the taxpayers of the Commonwealth. It is one of the burning questions of the day. 1696 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - I wish the honorable member would make a direct charge. 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - If I were in a position to know as much of what the Ministry is doing as the honorable member and the rest of the Caucus are, I would make some very definite charges. 1696 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - I can assure the honorable member I know nothing. 1696 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member for Wakefield is making statements- in regard to Government works. Let him give us a direct charge, and I will vote with him for the appointment of a Select Committee. 1696 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - So will I. 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I invite honorable members opposite to read the statements made by the Minister of Public Works in the Labour Administration of New South Wales. While in New South Wales a few days ago, I inspected some public works in course of construction there, because they were of a character that I desired to see carried out in South Australia. I wished to ascertain what they cost, because 1 have been advocating similar work in South Australia for the last fifteen years. The man in charge told me what the estimated cost was, but, he added, " We have not finished yet, but they have cost double what they were estimated to cost." 1696 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - What works are they? 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - They relate to the railways, and consist chiefly of facilities for handling produce. I make these statements to-day with the reservation that I, and honorable members gene- Tally, cannot prove their truth or otherwise. We desire to be able to do so, and I, therefore, wish to know whether the Prime Minister, who stated to-day a policy -with which every one will agree, will -give us an opportunity to ascertain whether or not that policy is put into practice. The statement made oy the Minister of Home Affairs is not good enough. I ask honorable members opposite if they agree with two statements made to-day by the Minister of Home Affairs in answer to questions put to him, and whether they think they indicate an administration of public affairs that should commend itself to them? 1696 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Does the honorable member believe in " speeding up "? 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I fancy that the honorable member would be one of the weary ones; I do not think he would be a man to " speed up." The time allotted to me under the Standing Orders has now almost expired. I have only to say that I feel very strongly regarding this question, and that I have had to speak very plainly to the Minister of Home Affairs - a great deal more plainly than it is pleasant for me to haVe to do; but I tell the Minister straight out that he will get no peace from me until we have a public inquiry, and establish the truth or otherwise of these charges. 1696 KZG Adelaide ALP Honorary Minister 1 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS . - The extravagant and irresponsible utterances of the honorable member who has seen fit anonymously to slander both officers and manual workers in the Commonwealth service- . 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Not officers. I did not speak of the workers either. I referred only to loafers. 1696 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The extravagant and irresponsible utterances of the honorable member, in which, under cover of parliamentary privilege, he deliberately slandered officers and workmen in the Government service, might well be allowed to go but for the fact that they will appear in print, and may be read by some persons who do not know him. We have had from the honorable member certain statements, to the effect that persons employed in the Government service are not giving a reasonable return for the wage paid them>. 1696 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - That is right. 1696 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable member at first made these statements as a reference to something, which actually existed. Called to question, he said, " I am giving my statement of alleged facts," indicating very clearly that he had nothing whatever to support the assertions . he was making, except that some one had alleged something. He proceeded to say that he was unacquainted with the position, and that it was impossible for him either to assert or to refute anything until he had obtained some more information. An honorable member, however, ought not to make assertions in this House until he has something to support them. He ought not to proceed on idle allegations, and make assertions which slander the inspectors and the official staff generally of the Department of Home Affairs. He ought not, in such circumstances, under cover of parliamentary privilege, to assert that practically all the men working for the Department of Home Affairs are loafers and wasters. 1697 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - He neither asserted nor inferred anything of the kind, and the honorable member knows it. 1697 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The time, perhaps, has arrived when honorable members on the opposite side may be given to understand that, while it is their bounden duty to criticise, and while it is their duty to call the attention of the House and the public generally to anything that is being done of a character that ought not to be done, or to any errors on the part of the Ministry, it is not their duty, under cover of parliamentary privilege, to assert that all the persons working in the Department of Home Affairs are loafers and wasters. 1697 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I rise to order. The honorable gentleman has just made a statement which includes the whole of the members of the Opposition. Referring to the Opposition, he said that they had made statements which slandered officers and men of the Works Department. It is a most offensive statement, and I ask that it shall be withdrawn unless some substantial proof of it is forthcoming. 1697 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - If the honorable gentleman made such a statement, he will withdraw it; but I understood him to be referring to a speech made by the honor- able member for Wakefield. 1697 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - In addition to the statements made by the honorable member for Wakefield- 1697 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - 1 rise to order. I require the words of which I have complained to be withdrawn. I am a member of the Opposition. 1697 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have already, ruled that if the honorable member for Adelaide referred to members of the Opposition generally he must withdraw the statement. 1697 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Certainly he did, .or I should not be standing where I am. I am a member of the Opposition. The honorable member for Adelaide spoke of members of the Opposition, and said that it was time they learned that they must not do this sort of thing. It was most offensive of the honorable member to make a charge of that kind. 1697 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - On the point of order, I wish to say- 1697 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I have asked the honorable member for Adelaide to withdraw the statement objected to, if he made it. 1697 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I made no such charge as is alleged by the honorable member for Parramatta. 1697 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I heard it. 1697 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The whole difficulty is that the reply I am endeavouring to make to the extravagant utterances of the honorabe member for Wakefield is of a character to rile the honorable member for Parramatta, and with the acuteness characteristic of him, the honorable member seeks to create an impression in another direction in order to lessen the severity of the castigation which he knows the honorable member for Wakefield is deserving of. I come now to another feature of the remarks made by the honorable member for Wakefield, to the effect that supervision, in so far as public works are concerned in the Home 'Affairs Department, and under the Government generally, is of such a character that men are not giving an adequate return for the wages paid to them. The honorable member must know that he is making charges against inspectors, foremen, supervising engineers, and, in fact, against men in official positions throughout the Public Service. So far as I understand the situation, every officer in the Government service knows well the policy of the Ministry, and that they are expected to get a fair return from all under them in the execution of their duty. If, as alleged by the honorable member for Wakefield, there are public officers who are not properly supervising the work intrusted to them; if there are officers whose supervision is insufficient to prevent those under them neglecting their work, it is the bounden duty of the honorable member to tell us who those officers are. It is not the duty of any honorable member to rise in his place in this House and make a general charge to the effect that the supervision of Government works is of such a character that loafers and wasters are continued in the employment df the Government. If there are loafers and wasters employed, responsible officers have neglected their duty. The honorable member for Wakefield has never specified any officer here or anywhere else. We have nothing but reckless charges, and it is most unfortunate that, in such circumstances, any honorable member, under cover of the privileges of Parliament, should attempt to malign public officers or those under them. If ' there are any manual workers in Government employ who, as alleged- by the honorable member, are loafers or wasters, it is his duty, and the duty of every other honorable member who knows of such a thing, to bring the matter before Parliament. If there be one such case, or the matter be somewhat trivial, it is at least the duty of any honorable member who knows it to bring it before the Minister concerned. I venture to suggest that no Minister at present occupying the Treasury bench, and no honorable gentleman who previously occupied it, would neglect to have such a matter investigated at once, and, if the charge were proved, to have the offender summarily dismissed from the Public Service. I can appeal, despite the little differences we have occasionally, to honorable members opposite to say whether it is a fair thing for any member of this House to come here in a fine, large, general way, with acknowledged inability, and without data, to specify a single instance of what is complained of, and assert that the inspectorial staff are not doing their duty, and are conniving, and winking the eye, at the employment of loafers and wasters. It is distinctly unfair in the circumstances. If I knew of an instance of such a thing, it would be my duty to call attention to it. If it were an isolated case, or there were one or two instances of the kind, I should feel it my duty to go to the Minister concerned. The honorable member for Wakefield, who tells us that he knows of these things from his own personal observation, has deliberately neglected his duty. If he is personally aware of instances of the employment of loafers and wasters in the Public Service, he should have called the attention of the Minister concerned to the fact. He should have specified the particular instances, that the Minister might be in a position to make inquiries on the spot. But, as a matter of fact, now that the honorable member has cooled down, he knows that he has been making wild, reckless, and extravagant charges. 1698 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - No, he does not. He will make them again. 1698 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable member says that he does not, and that he will make these charges again.; but he knows that he has been making reckless charges. There is no evidence to substantiate his statement, which, so far as I can see, was made only on the strength of a statement published in the press to the effect that something is wrong in the Government Service. There has been some confusion as to which Department is concerned. Some newspapers have asserted that it is in the Home Affairs Department, and others that it is in the Post and Telegraph Department. The honorable member for Wakefield, with his usual carelessness, has seized hold of these allegations and proceeded to make still more reckless charges, on the strength of allegations that appeared, where ? In the newspapers. Let me put the position plainly to the honorable member. Suppose there were certain persons in Australia who were about to have some dealings with the honorable member, and desired some proof of his bona -fides. Would he send them to the Daily Herald, of South Australia, for a character, or. to the Sydney Worker, or the Brisbane Worker t 1698 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I should not need to send them to any one. 1698 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Oh, yes, the honorable member would. Would he send them to the Labour Call, in Victoria ? He knows that he would send them where h"e thought they would get an opinion which would see him through his difficulty, if he had one. 1698 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - The. newspapers referred to would give the honorable member a bad character, I suppose? 1698 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Those that know the honorable member. This is all political, of course. Because some statement appears in a newspaper, which every one knows does its best to injure this side of the House, the honorable member seizes the opportunity to make a charge which he must now very much regret. I respect very highly the utterances by the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy 'Leader of the Opposition, both of whom dealt with the matter in such a manner as to meet with the approval of every honorable member. They spoke, as they ought to do, as members of the Opposition, whose duty it is to criticise this side with a full appreciation of the responsibility attaching to their position. Neither honorable gentleman so far forgot himself as to make wild, extravagant, reckless charges without a shadow of foundation, and then seek, because of statements appearing in a newspaper called the Argus, to have appointed a Select Committee to in- quire into the allegations made. Supposing that by some awful catastrophe honorable members opposite were in power, and the Daily Herald, of Adelaide, or the Worker, of New South Wales or Queensland, or the Labour Call, of Victoria, made some statements respecting their administration, would they immediately ask the House to appoint a Select Committee? 1699 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - They ought to challenge inquiry. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - They ought, as we always do. 1699 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Does not the Honorary Minister think that the Minister in charge of this work should make a statement to the House as to the methods of his procedure ? 1699 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - I am going to make a statement; I have not been given a " show " yet. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I have no doubt that the Minister will make -a statement, and I have expressed the opinion that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader have only done their duty to the public and to the House. I should not have intruded in this debate but for the fact that honorable members opposite have not copied their leaders, but have gone off at a tangent, and made statements of which they must feel ashamed in their cool moments. Something has been said about some railway tender in South Australia, in regard to which misrepresentations may be made to the public. It was desired to construct a few miles of railway from Tailem Bend to Brown's Well, and, under the legislation of South Australia, it is always necessary to call for public tenders. The Public Works Department of that State sometimes tenders in competition with private contractors, and there have been times when these departmental tenders have justified the Government in accepting them. 1699 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - 1 can reply to that very nicely. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - There are other times, of course, when the departmental tenders have not been of such a character as to justify their acceptance. I believe that when the honorable member for Wakefield was a member of the South Australian Parliament, tenders by the officers of the Public Works Department were accepted. Recently, when a Labour Ministry was in office in the State Parliament, trie departmental tender for this particular few miles of railway was refused, and a private one accepted. That is all that there is in the charge made. 1699 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - That is an absolutely incorrect statement. 1699 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - What was the difference between the two tenders? 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Some thousands of pounds. 1699 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The difference was 62 £ per cent. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The Public Works tender, I believe, was £150,000, while the private tender was £80,000 or ,£90,000. Honorable members know that when contractors do not desire to undertake a particular piece of work they make their tender so high as to insure its being rejected, though they never neglect to put in a tender. So it is with the Public Works Department. When the Department wishes to undertake a work it tenders at a price that it is believed will be accepted; and, in such circumstances, they invariably obtain a contract, and the work is carried out to the advantage of all concerned. In other circumstances the Department adopts the method of _ outside contractors, and tenders at a price that they know will not be accepted. 1699 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - The Public Works Department's tender is the Departmental estimate of the cost of the work. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I have shown all that there is in the statement made by the honorable member for Wakefield, who ought not to seek to make the public believe that the tender of the Public Works Department is abnormally high, because of the necessity of paying high wages, or because, as alleged by him, the Government can get only loafers and wasters to work for them, while private contractors have the services of men out of whom they can knock a greater amount of work. I hope that, although some little heat has been caused by the utterances of the honorable member for Wakefield, that gentleman, now that he has had time for reconsideration, will- 1699 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Apologize to the House. 1699 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Apologize, not to the House, but to the officers of the Department of Home Affairs, and the men employed therein. 1699 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I rise to a point of order. The Honorary Minister, before resuming his seat, made a statement that was absolutely and wilfully incorrect. 1699 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That is not a point of order. 1700 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Then I say these few words as a personal explanation. 1700 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - I ask that the honorable member for Wakefield be compelled to withdraw his allegation that the Honorary Minister made a statement that was "absolutely and wilfully incorrect." 1700 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - If the Honorary Minister considers the words offensive I am sure the honorable member for Wakefield will withdraw them. 1700 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I withdraw the words, but I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to insist on the Honorary Minister withdrawing his statement. 1700 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I think the honorable member for Wakefield had better leave the Honorary Minister to me. I desire to make a personal explanation. This is the statement of the Honorary Minister which I took exception to at the time, and it is quite evident he was not aware of what he was saying - Perhaps the time has arrived when honorable members on the opposite side may be given to understand that, while it is their bounden duty to criticise, and while it is their duty to call the attention of the House and the public generally to anything that has been done of a character that ought not to be done, or to any errors of the Ministry, good, bad, or indifferent, yet it is not their duty, under cover of Parliamentary privilege to assert that all the persons working in the Home Affairs Department are loafers and wasters. There is an implied statement, applied to the whole of the Opposition, that we charge the persons working in the Department as loafers and wasters. 1700 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - How does the honorable member get this in as a " personal explanation " ? 1700 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - T say that I was quite justified in requiring the withdrawal of those expressions, which contain an implied charge that we on this side make a wholesale accusation against the officers and persons working in the Home Affairs Department of being loafers and wasters. No such accusation was made, and it ought not to be attributed to the Opposition by the Honorary Minister. 1700 KHU Dalley 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE . - I should not have risen but for the attitude on this side in relation to the utterances of the honorable member, for Wakefield. To some extent I am not with " my own people " on the question. I take it that if charges are made against the administration of a Commonwealth Department, it is the duty of the Ministers concerned to at once give attention to the charges. The Argus is a "big" newspaper, and no one can deny the fact; any statement made in that newspaper, reflecting on Departmental administration, should not be passed lightly over. I submit that the honorable member for Wakefield did the right thing, and I take exception to the attack to which he has been subjected by honorable members on this side of the chamber, and to the attempt which was made to howl him down. I desire an investigation into the charges which have been preferred against the day-labour system by the Argus newspaper. If those charges be correct, let the existing condition of things be remedied1 at the earliest possible moment, but if the allegations be untrue, let us pin that journal down to a deliberate mis-statement of fact. Because a member of the Opposition deems it his duty to take a certain course of action in the public interest, surely it is not for honorable members upon this side of the chamber to attack- him, to repudiate his utterance, and to attempt to howl him down. I say that it is a wrong thing to do. Even the Minister of Home Affairs himself to-day replied to a question in a manner which did not redound to his credit. When a newspaper like the Argus prefers definite charges against a Department, it is idle to tell me that it is afflicted with Chinese leprosy. Such an answer does not afford a solution of the problem which we have to face. The Government must see - especially when we are attempting to carry out contracts under the day-labour system - that that system is effective, that the inspectors engaged upon them do their duty, or that they go out, and that men who will not do their work go out with them. It is the duty of the Government and of every Minister to answer the charges made by the Argus, and to prove that they are false. If they cannot do that, they stand condemned. 1700 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - No. 1700 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - I say " Yes." It is enough for me to know that there was a column of matter in the Argus setting out that men engaged on our public works are in the habit of loafing. 1700 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - It is easy enough to make that statement. 1700 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - And it is easy enough lo repudiate it. From the Labour stand-point, when a great newspaper prefers charges against a public Department, it is the duty of the Government to demonstrate that they are false. If the allegations be not true they can be easily disproved. 1701 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The Government would need to do nothing else if it adopted that course. 1701 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - That may be so. The Argus deliberately affirms that men are leaving their work, although they are paid to do it, that they are drunk at their work, that they refuse to do their duty, and that they simply flout their superior officers. If that be so, the position is a very serious one. Certainly a statement of that character ought to be at once inquired into by the Government. Let us investigate the matter, and justify our officers, who, I hope, are discharging their duties effectively, and at the same time let us redeem the men of the odium which will otherwise attach to them. I know that the daily press are accustomed to cast slurs upon the Labour party. They attack the Government because they desire to show that our methods are not in the best interests of this country. But when they make charges it is the duty of the Government to reply to them with such effectiveness as will sweep them off the face of the earth, at least for some time. I think, too, that some inefficiency has been exhibited in carrying out works in the Federal Territory. I am not satisfied when I find that there was an unexpended vote there last year of £31,000. I am not satisfied that there ought not to be more money on the Estimates for the Federal Territory for the current financial year. I have a very keen suspicion that the Minister of Home Affairs has been subjected to certain Victorian pressure. I am not unaware that at the recent by-election, while sitting in my room, I heard a member of my own party, who entertains a Victorian prejudice - he calls himself a Nationalist - say- 1701 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - It is the worst of parliamentary etiquette to refer to anything that one hears in one's room. 1701 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - I admit that, and I am sorry I was about to offend. But I am perfectly sure that certain influences have operated with the Minister of Home Affairs. I sincerely trust that the Government will strive to push to completion the buildings in the Federal Capital. The site has been selected, the design of the city has been approved, and the only thingcnow remaining is to put the work in hand as soon as possible, and carry it to completion. 1701 JUV Franklin 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS . - Ever since I have been a member of this Parliament I have been impressed by the fact that time after time Ministers will ask Parliament to authorize a particular vote, will dwell upon its extreme urgency, emphasize the necessity which exists for it being at once proceeded with, and yet, at the end of the year, that vote will be found to be unexpended. For works in Tasmania last year £17,419 was voted, of which only £4,000 was expended, and we are now asked to approve of the expenditure of £11,497of the original sum. In other words, not 20 per cent. of the vote was expended. Now, either these works are necessary or they are not. If they are not, they ought not to be submitted to Parliament; if they are, they should be proceeded with, and the money should be expended within the financial year. It is not enough to say that the State officers are in fault. I am sure the Minister of Home Affairs will agree with me when I say that he has one of the most efficient officers in Australia at the head of the Works Department in Tasmania, and I am satisfied that any delay which has occurred in pushing forward works there does not lie at his door. If there be one thing which stands out more prominently than another in connexion with our public works system, it is the absolute necessity which exists for appointing a permanent Public Works Committee to overlook and report on all important public undertakings. 1701 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - It ought to have been appointed long ago. 1701 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - From inquiries which I have made, I believe that honorable members on both sides of the Chamber, as well as the members of the State Parliament, are unanimous in their testimony that the New South Wales Public Works Committee has proved of inestimable value, in that it has prevented the useless expenditure of hundreds of thousands of pounds. If a necessity exists for the appointment of such a body in a State, how much more pressing is that necessity in connexion with the public works of the Commonwealth ? For instance, honorable members may be asked to approve of a vote for a work in Western Australia or in Queensland. How can the representatives of, say, Tasmania be expected to know what warrant there is for assenting to a public work in Queensland ? We have either to vote for it blindly, or to oppose it blindly. It is not fair to honorable members or to their constituents to ask them to vote enormous sums, such as we shall be asked to vote for many years to come, without having the slightest knowledge of the necessity for the proposed expenditure, or of the manner in which the money is to be expended. As regards the mode in which works are carried out under the day-labour system, I, for one, will not accept the position which the Honorary Minister has asked us to take. It is not the duty of a member of Parliament to go spying about tunnels and underground works to see whether men are working fairly or not, and then make a report to the Minister. I refuse to become an informer, even to oblige the Minister, whose duty and privilege it is to see that the work is properly carried out. Persons have come to me, and made certain statements, but I have refused to voice them publicly, and will not do so. These statements should be made before a proper Inquiry Board. The present position cannot be allowed to continue. In connexion with the construction of overland railways and the Federal Capital, and in other directions, we shall be called upon, during the next few years, to spend from £15,000,000 to £25,000,000. The policy of the Government is that public works shall be carried out by day labour. It is the bounden duty of the Government and the House to see that the money is fairly and properly expended. I cannot understand the attitude of a Minister who allows these charges to be made inside the House, and out of it, without challenging an inquiry. 1702 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Has there been one specific charge made? 1702 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn - There have been plenty of charges made in the Argus. 1702 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Has there been one charge made in this House? 1702 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - I think that there have been sufficient charges made to warrant the Minister in demanding that an inquiry should be held. This is one of those business propositions of which the Minister of Home Affairs is so very much in favour. These charges are made, not only publicly, but privately, wherever one goes. Were I in the Minister's place, I should challenge an inquiry, and would not wait for a private member to move for the appointment of a Select Committee. The very honour of his Department is involved. I am not making one charge against either the Minister or any member of his staff ; but I hold that when such charges are made it is the duty of the Government, as well as of the Minister, to seek the fullest possible inquiry. If the honorable gentleman has nothing to fear - and I do not express an opinion on that point -he should not wait for the notice of motion on the business-paper to be dealt with. 1702 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - I expect that he has already asked his officers to report on the charges. 1702 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - If the Minister has taken that step, and a report has been made to him, it should be laid upon the table of the House at once. 1702 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The honorable member does want things done suddenly. This is the first day we have ever heard of the charges. 1702 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - This is not the first that we have heard of the charges. 1702 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - Which charges? 1702 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - That the work of the Department is not carried out in a satisfactory way. I cannot think that any honorable member on the other side can have any purpose to serve in trying to prevent an inquiry from being held. It is in the interests of the policy in which honorable members opposite believe - the day-labour system - and also in the interests of the taxpayers, who will be called upon to find from £15,000,000 to £20,000,000 during the next few years to carry out public works, that we should have an assurance that the money which is voted for public works will be expended to the best advantage. Whilst the officers of the Department give a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, they should see that a fair day's work is given for a fair day's pay. 1702 JNV Herbert 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD .- The honorable member for Dalley has anticipated, to some extent, what I intended to say in regard to the alleged inefficiency of the oversight of the construction of public works. A few days ago I asked the Minister of Home Affairs - and I was in error in doing so, I understand - if he had noticed the article regarding this matter which has been referred to several times here to-day. I should have addressed the question to the Postmaster-General. It does not lessen the gravity of the charge whether it was laid against the Minister of Home Affairs, or against his colleague. It was a very serious charge, indeed, and one which, if based on a semblance of fact at all, discloses a scandalous state of affairs. If the charge is not true, it should be investigated at once, and nailed down to the counter as a lie. The Minister, not for his own credit, not for the credit of the Cabinet, but also for the credit of his officers, should have the matter investigated. They are not in a position themselves to conduct an investigation. 1703 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - The responsible Minister is investigating the matter. 1703 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - It is some days since I asked the Minister of Home Affairs if he had noticed the article in the Argus, and if he intended to get a report. There is nothing very mysterious about a report in this connexion. There are officers in the Department, and any report submitted by them might be substantiated or otherwise by architects and engineers in outside practice who are competent to express an opinion on this matter. There is no rule-of-thumb in this business ; matters of this kind are now reduced to an exact science. The officers in the Department can say exactly what a lineal or cubic yard of excavation should cost in a certain description of ground ; so they should be able to tell, to 1s., what a rod of brickwork ought to cost. They ought to know the cost of material. If they do not possess this knowledge, they should not be in their present position. I believe, from my knowledge of the officers, that they know all these things. Not only should the Minister get a report from the officers of his Department, but he should also have their report corroborated by outside persons. Parliament has a right to know whether these charges, which are made by a newspaper - which, I frankly admit, loses no opportunity to flog honorable members on this side and the present Ministry - are true or false. When such a charge is made, it is the duty of the Postmaster-General, or whoever may be acting for him during his illness, which we all regret, or the Minister of Home Affairs, to see that it is thoroughly investigated at once. 1703 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - It is being investigated by the Department. 1703 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - The investigation should be prompt, thorough, and reliable. The Prime Minister took no notice of a matter of which I should have taken serious notice; I refer to certain charges made against the Treasurer. He should not sit down quietly under such accusations. 1703 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I corrected the misstatements that were published. 1703 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - And the press failed to give the corrections. It is that to which I take exception. 1703 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Is the honorable member of opinion that Parliament should appoint a Committee to inquire into every press allegation? 1703 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - No; but this is so serious a matter that it should be investigated. Let honorable members read the statement of the Secretary for Public Works in New South Wales, which appears in to-day's newspapers. The honorable member for Wakefield referred to a railway contract, but spoke on hearsay. Let me give a personal experience. I am not hostile to the Government, nor am I hostile to the day-labour system. As a matter of fact, I am in favour of the day-labour system, because I know the results that can be obtained from it. . The last work on which I was engaged before I entered this Parliament was a railway contract, in connexion with which I acted as an inspector. Tenders were called for 44 miles of railway in Queensland, and the lowest offer was £98,000. The line was to be carried out under the joint control of three local authorities, which were borrowing from the Government, and they came to the conclusion that it would be cheaper to employ day labour than to accept the lowest tender. The necessary hands were engaged, and supervisors were appointed. It is the supervision that is generally the weak thing about Government works. Where the supervisors are not men of character, work will always cost more than it should cost. In the case to which I refer, the line was constructed by day labour for £17,000 less than the lowest tender, the minimum wage paid being 8s. a day, though nearly every man on the job was getting 10s. a day or over, and, although the specifications required 720 cubic yards of ballast to the mile, we provided 1,000 cubic yards, put in additional bridges, made all the sidings, and built all the stations needed. Whenever men came along, as sometimes happened, with a note from the Chairman of the Joint Board, saying, " Please find this man a job," or words to that effect, they were told to go to a much warmer climate than Victoria is enjoying at the present time. The position taken up by the man in charge was, " I am responsible for this work. I have to see that it is done reasonably, cheaply, though without sweating, and I am determined, therefore, to choose my own men, and not to accept all who are sent to me." 1703 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The days have gone when men could take up that position. 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - No, they have not. 1704 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - In those days, unsuitable workers were dismissed. ' 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - That happens now under supervisors who have sufficient force of character. Such a man should be able to say to a worker, "I do not care a tinker's curse whether you appeal to a Minister or to a member of Parliament. You are not good enough for this work, and I will not have you on it. I can always get a job elsewhere if my own independence is found fault with." 1704 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr Palmer - What would happen if the man dismissed was a unionist? 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - The less the honorable member says about unionism the better, because he belongs to a body of men who, while professing not to be unionists, have- what is known as an honorable understanding, which makes them practically unionists. The Minister of Home Affairs is now being asked to undertake too much. One Minister cannot properly control meteorology, statistics, electoral administration, and works and railway constructions. The present Minister will not occasionally take a little drop of refreshment upstairs, and owing to the strenuous life which he is leading one can see that he is going to pieces. If l call in at his office at 9 o'clock in the morning. I find that he has already been there for half-an-hour or more, yet all he takes to sustain him is a little drop of hot milk. His responsibility is too great for any one man, and should be divided. I do not know that I favour the appointment of a Works Committee composed of members of Parliament. In this House we have very few practical men. I do not see one on the other side, though, of course, the honorable member for Fremantle, who is away, is a practical man. On this side we have the honorable members for Maranoa, East Sydney, Gwydir, and South Sydney, and I, myself, am a practical man. 1704 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Why these invidious distinctions? 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - I apologize' for omitting the honorable member. I know him to be a practical man. With the exceptions I have named, there are no men in this Chamber competent, in my opinion, to form a Works Committee, lt is questionable, too, whether a Parliamentary Committee could do what would be required of a Works Committee. Such a body would have to occasionally visit works in progress, arid this often could not be done with parliamentary duties to be attended to. I understand that the New South Wales Public Works Committee deals only with railway proposals, recommending or reporting against, them as it sees fit. General works it knows nothing about, and it is not asked to know anything about them. 1704 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - It inquires concerning all works the estimated cost of which exceeds £20,000. 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - It recommends the works, but does not supervise them. We want something more than a recommendation, because this Parliament does the recommending. I now come into conflict with the honorable member for Dalley in regard to the money being spent on the Federal Capital site. It is an absolute waste of money, and an injustice to Australia. The less money put upon the Estimates for the purpose, the better, and here, too, complaints are being made in regard to works being carried out by day labour. With regard to day labour, at a certain port in my electorate money is being borrowed from the State Government to build a breakwater and a viaduct. There . is almost an open roadstead there, the harbor being to a small extent sheltered by an island. The intention is to build from the island a breakwater extending north, and from the southern end of the island a viaduct in the neighbourhood of. 3 miles long to connect with the mainland. Mr. Cullen, the Chief Engineer for Harbors and Rivers in Queensland, made an official report on the matter some time ago, when the local authority asked the State Government for the loan of the money. In this report he said, amongst other things, that, whilst the breakwater might be built by contract, the viaduct, being a much more important work, and it being necessary for it to be perfectly stable and reliable, should be built by day labour. No higher testimony to day labour could be given than that statement, coming from a gentleman of Mr. Cullen's position and ex'perience. Every railway that has. been built in Queensland for a considerable time has been built by day labour, and there is no intention, so far as I know, to depart from the system. 1704 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - It is the same in Victoria., 1704 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - I believe the same system is being followed in New South Wales also ; but I am speaking of the State with which I am most, intimately acquainted. In New South Wales, Mr. Griffith has stated that he is going to make a comparison between day labour and contract work by letting a contract for a certain length of railway, and building an equal length by day labour. I am afraid it is impossible to make a comparison in that way, because no two railways are identical. The country is not alike, sleepers are more difficult to get in one place than another; in one place there is more rock that earthwork ; and on one line there are more bridges to build than on another. If the Minister of Home Affairs tried to make a similar comparison here between contract work and day labour, he would be in the same position as the Minister for Works in New South Wales. The attempt would be an utter failure, and would give us no real testimony as to the relative merits of the two systems. I should like to remind the honorable member for Swan, who spoke about the amount of money that had to be revoted, that last year the Works Estimates came on very late. Parliament did not meet till late in the year, and naturally the Works Estimates were considered still later. Consequently, a lot of work was not finished; but there is no necessity whatever for the Department to wait until the Works Estimates are passed to have the plans and specifications prepared. No case is yet on record of any of these Estimates having been " turned down " after being submitted to Parliament; and there is no reason why the Department should not anticipate parliamentary approval of them, and be ready to proceed with the works as soon as the money is voted. 1705 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Or even earlier. 1705 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - It might be done even earlier ; but the Department could anticipate the vote by Parliament. I am entirely opposed to the present system whereby the Minister of Home Affairs has to depend on the State Public Works Departments to have his works supervised and plans and specifications prepared. The time has now arrived for us to have a Works Department of our own. The honorable member for Lang and the honorable member for Franklin will confirm my statement as to what was going on at Thursday Island only recently. When the Pearl-shell Commission was there, a quarantine station was being built, and a jetty was also being built. The officer in charge of the work at the quarantine station was an officer of the Public Works Department of Queensland. That man does not care a button for the Minister of Home Affairs. He is in the employ of the State, and when the State is not working in harmony with the Commonwealth, as is the case with Queensland and some of the other States, the State authorities would rather back up their own officer, if he were in conflict with the Minister of Home Affairs, than do the reverse. If the Minister of Home Affairs said to this man, " Your work is not proceeding satisfactorily," he would go to his own Department, which would support him on every occasion. I am not making any reflection on the officer at Thursday Island. He is an efficient officer; but the system is very unsatisfactory, and should be superseded at the earliest moment by the establishment of a Federal Public Works Department, in which our own plans and specifications will be prepared by our own staff, and our own supervision engaged. The officers in it would be responsible to this Parliament, and no State Parliament should have control over them. I hope the Minister of Home Affairs will take into consideration the matter of which I have spoken. I have referred to it here before, but am sorry to say that my words of wisdom have fallen unheeded by him. He takes not the slightest notice of them. He goes on his own way, sometimes rejoicing, and sometimes the reverse. The Argus is flogging him just now, and he does not like it. If he would take advice that has been tendered to him from this side of the House, as well as from outside, he would possibly give less opportunity for these press criticisms. 1705 KYJ Bendigo 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK .- It is evident from these Public Works Estimates, which have been submitted to us to-day, that the Federal Government is rapidly becoming the largest employer of labour in Australia, if indeed it is not so already. Therefore, it is only prudent and wise that we should survey the manner in which many of our public works are being carried out, especially in reference to labour conditions. I do not intend to import any heat into this discussion. 1705 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We wish to hear criticism. 1705 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I know what it is to have been in office, and I know' that there are occasions on which the contract system is altogether inapplicable, and when the day-labour system must be adopted. I am not going to condemn clay labour. On the other hand, I am not going to advocate its universal adoption. Discrimination and great judgment have to be exercised by those responsible in deciding whether a particular work should be done by contract or by day labour. I know as a fact that many private enterprises are at the present time being carried out by day labour. Proprietors have" found it advisable, owing to the uncertainty of the labour market, to adopt that method. Indeed, they have been forced to do so, because of the high prices which contractors have to submit in tendering for a work in consequence of the uncertainty of the .labour market, and the liability to strikes. But certainly when day labour is resorted to the Federal Government as the employer ought to obtain guarantees and assurances, firstly, that every effort will be made to secure the services of the best nien who may be available ; secondly, that they shall be paid well ; and, thirdly, that they shall be expected and required- to do their duty. 1706 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Quite Tight. 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - If they will not do their duty they ought to be amenable to discipline. 1706 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - They ought to be " sacked." 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - These are principles in which the Government ought to acquiesce. 1706 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - 1 say that such men ought to be dismissed. That is more than saying that they should be amenable to discipline. 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Discipline in the case of such conduct means dismissal in the end. I hope that if Ministers have any suspicion that those conditions are not being complied with in connexion with Government work some change will be made. 1706 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Instructions have been given to that effect already. 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Otherwise great discredit will be brought upon Commonwealth Departments. Dealing in order with the three points which I have mentioned, I would draw attention to this fact: Whilst, with reference to the permanent hands employed by the Federal Government, . there are qualifications which conduce to the employment of the best men available, there is also a large area of employment within the control of the Federal Government as to which there' is no such guarantee. I refer to those work men who are regarded as outside the pale of the permanent Service, and who come within the category of casuals or exempt hands. Honorable members will be surprised if they make inquiries to find to what extent of late years the area of exempt or casual service has been extended.. Parliament, in framing the Public Service Act, made provision for the registration of applications for temporary employment in the office of the Commissioner. But I have found that of late years ' various Departments have gradually encroached uPon the system of registration, and have, indeed, been dispensing with* it altogether. They have relegated the engagement of casual employes either to inspectors or officials, or. have adopted some other indefinite and indeterminate mode. As a private member of this House, in common with other honorable members, I have been frequently asked by persons in search of employment how to obtain work in connexion with Commonwealth enterprises. I have advised these applicants to send ir* their names to the Public Service Commissioner, in order that they might be registered. 1706 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Hear, hear ! 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - But I have found' that many men have had their names on the register for )'ears and have not been1 able to get a job. How is that ? The reason is that in the course of time the practice has grown up of not having resort to* the register in the engagement of casual' employes. I ask the Prime Minister to take a note of that fact. 1706 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We want to know these things. 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - The service-rendering and employment-giving Departments have been ignoring the requirements of the Public Service Act in reference to registration, and have resorted to the practice of engaging hands without reference to the Public Service Commissioner's employment register. 1706 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I will inquire to-morrow. 1706 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - The law requires that men who want a casual job shall have their names registered, and shall be engaged in order of precedence. But I know more than one man in my own electorate, as well as others in different pasts of Victoria, whose names have been registered for years. Their hearts have been almost broken through failure to get a job after long waiting. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Has the honorable member any idea as to what Departments have been following that practice? 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I believe that the practice is followed particularly by the Post and Telegraph Department. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I will make inquiries tomorrow. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I believe that the Public Service Commissioner is quite prepared to do his share of the work. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - If the honorable member will ask a question on the subject tomorrow, 1 will answer it. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Of course, the Public Service Commissioner has nothing to do with the engaging of casual labour. His task is simply to keep a register. It is supposed that in practice men will be able to get a job by registering their names. That practice, if adhered to, would be to some extent a check. But I have ascertained that in actual practice the Post and Telegraph Department and the Home Affairs Department have been in the habit of engaging hands without reference to the Public Service Commissioner. The result is that unfortunate men whose names have been registered for years in the office of the Public Service Commissioner have been lamentably disappointed. 1707 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - .Hear, hear ! Quite right ! That is true. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - This is a matter that ought to be inquired into. There is a growing feeling that political patronage has been creeping into the Public Service during the last few years. 1707 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - The trouble is that men who register their names, afterwards get a job, and when we inquire for them, they are not to be found. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - So far as the temporary Service is concerned, the regulations require that certain tests and examinations shall be imposed by the departmental officers. It may be that even to that extent too much power is given to departmental officers, and that outsiders - men who are unknown to departmental officers - are unable to get a share of any work that is offering. The departmental officers may be actuated by bias or personal feeling and sympathy. These are questions that will have to be tackled, and if there is such a thing as political or departmental patronage, and if working men in the Commonwealth do not have a fair share of any Commonwealth employment that is going, we ought to know the reason why. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Hear, hear ! 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I do not disguise the fact that there is a suspicion of political, as well as departmental, patronage. The feeling has been growing that a man cannot obtain a billet under the Government unless he has a letter from a member of Parliament. It is thought by many that a letter from a member of Parliament, and particularly from a member of the Labour party, will prove an avenue to a Government billet. 1707 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Is the honorable member referring to a position in the permanent service ? 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - No, to the casual, or exempt, service. 1707 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - There should be no need for that kind of thing. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Certainly not. I decline to give any one a letter of introduction or recommendation to any departmental officer. It should be beneath the dignity of a member of Parliament to do so. Such a thing ought not to be tolerated. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I do not think the honorable member is quite correct in that view. If, for instance, we were anxious to obtain good miners, and the honorable member knew of one, he would be right in giving him a letter of recommendation. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I would give him a certificate of character, but not directed to any individual. 1707 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - If an honorable member knew of a good man, he would be quite justified in recommending him to the Minister. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I do not recommend a man to any particular Minister. I would give a man a certificate of good character, but that is the utmost limit to which I would go. 1707 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr Ozanne - -Why, the honorable member has recommended men. 1707 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I have given letters of character, but no letters of recommendation to any political or departmental officer. The time has arrived when these matters ought to be inquired into, and the air cleared- I heard a charge made recently in this House against the administration of the employment conditions in connexion with the Federal Capital - a charge which has not yet been dealt with. If was made by the honorable member for Wilmot during the debate on the Address-in-Reply, and I wish now to bring it once more under the attention of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Home Affairs. Let us have some explanation or refutation of it, if either be possible. The charge made by the honorable member was based upon an article which appeared, not in the Argus, but in a technical periodical called Building, published in Sydney. It is the Sydney contractors' journal. Some time ago, that journal published an article in which complaint was made that workmen employed by the Department of Home Affairs in connexion with the Federal Capital were not giving a fair return for their wages, and that things were at sixes and sevens. The Department denied the accuracy of the charge, and then this journal, it appears, took steps to inquire into the accuracy of its first allegation. A man was sent to the Federal "Capital to watch what was going on, and to take notes, and, after remaining there for seven months, he made a report to Building, which returned to the attack in the article quoted by the honorable member for Wilmot. In that article, the following passage occurred - We can now unhesitatingly say, and are prepared to prove, that the day labour system of work at the Federal Capital site is a public scandal. There is no system, but a " jumbled order of things, disgracing the administration of the Home Affairs Department, and retarding progress generally at the site." The work is not only snail like, the men are not only at the lowest stage of demoralization as regards' honest labour, but the work itself is a disgrace to good construction. That is the charge. I have no personal acquaintance with it, but I heard this statement read, and was somewhat staggered by it. I waited to hear a refutation, or an explanation, from the Department, but none has been given and, as we have been challenged to give some basis for our complaint, I have read this extract, and invite the Minister to make an explanation. I am not making any personal charge against the Minister. These things may be going on behind his back. 1708 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - They are not going on. 1708 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - He should have some official, authentic report in explanation of these extraordinary charges. If a shirking of work is going on in connexion with the Federal Capital, it may be going on in such a manner that the public is not receiving value for its money. We are spending £100,000 a year in connexion with the Capital, and men are being employed by the Department on the day-labour system. I should like to know what precautions are taken to secure the best men for the work, and I should like some assurance that men are not appointed because of political opinion or political favoritism, lt is quite possible that, if men obtain employment because of political favoritism, they will not be so amenable to discipline as would others who got these appointments as the result of ordinary competitive examination or some test as to qualification. 1708 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Does not the honorable member recognise that he has quoted from a biased source? 1708 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I do not know the paper, but I think it would be well to follow up the allegations. I shall endeavour to do so. Mi. Ozanne. - The same sort of thing has been going on for centuries. 1708 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - We are in Opposition at present, and we are dealing with the Government. Here is a specific case. If these things are being perpetrated at the present time, it is no answer to say that they were going on in times past. The Government is becoming such a great employer of labour in connexion with not only the Federal Capital, but the Northern Territory, and the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway, on which £5,000,000 will be spent, that the public are entitled to some assurance that public money will be well spent, and that there will be no shirking or loafing. 1708 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - They will get that assurance. 1708 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - If these men receive good wages and work eight hours a day, it is just as well that the public should have guarantees that they do their duty, and do honour and credit to those who employ them. So far as the Federal Capital is concerned, I am disposed to concur with the honorable member who has just resumed his seat, that under existing circumstances it is too great a burden for one man to carry, and that, notwithstanding the desire of the Minister to do what is right and proper, it is too much to expect him to be able to look after the multitudinous enterprises coming gradually within the jurisdiction of the Department of Home Affairs. It is more than one man can do. 1708 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Every Minister is overburdened. 1708 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - What does the honorable member suggest? 1708 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Having launched upon the building of the Federal Capital - and it is one of the biggest enterprises that we have in hand - we should take care that the work is done properly, and surrounded with every essential to efficiency and success. I do not think that one Minister, or a Department having its head office in Melbourne, can undertake to carry out the supervision of that great enterprise so far removed as it is from the Seat of Government. I think the time has arrived when we should seriously consider whether the carrying out of the works connected with the Federal Capital ought not to be placed in the hands of an independent Commission. The InterState Commission, when created, might be intrusted with a portion of the responsibility; but, in any case, we should have some Board or Commission like the Railway Commissioners of the several States to deal with our great public works. It is impossible that the present system should be tolerated much longer. It is impossible for the Minister of Home Affairs to look after these great works, involving the expenditure of millions of money. We are just npw commencing expenditure in connexion with the Federal Capital, the transcontinental railway, and Northern Territory, and it would be money well spent to call into existence a Public Works Commission, authorized to supervise these great undertakings, and instructed, as are the Railway Commissioners of the different States, to carry them out on business principles, and as directed by Parliament, to the best advantage, free from all political influence. Once a work is approved by Parliament, those charged with carrying it out should be freed from all political influence, dictation, or interference. No Minister or member of Parliament should be allowed to send letters, or give instructions, to those intrusted with the carrying out of these great works to put on men who might not be able to pass an examination or test as to their fitness. Such a regulation would relieve members of Parliament and Ministers of a very great deal of trouble. I know, from my own experience in the State Parliament of Victoria, that one of the greatest worries of public life was the difficulty of dealing with a number of deserving persons who were in search of work. Naturally an honorable member would feel inclined vo do what he could to assist persons residing in his electorate to secure work, and it. might happen in such circumstances that the best men were not always employed in the Government Service. Conditions should be imposed which should secure the employment of the best men available for any work undertaken. This should apply, not only to permanent employes of the Government, but to casual employes also. Every man in Australia should be afforded the opportunity to comply with the necessary test to secure his employment as a permanent or temporary servant of the public, without fear, favour, or affection. If, when we launch these great Commonwealth undertakings, employment upon them is only to be obtained through political influence and favoritism, there will be a carnival - I will not say of political corruption -but of errors and disasters which will recoil upon those who are responsible for it. I should be very sorry to see our Federal institutions disgraced by any such disaster. We are all concerned in the success of these great enterprises, and in seeing that there shall be no disgrace brought upon Federal institutions through the employment of labour as the result of political influence, mainly of the dominant majority. 1709 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I have given my pledge to the country that every work we undertake shall be tested and compared with work of the same kind done by private persons. 1709 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - There is only one way in which to carry out such a promise, and that is to see that the best labour is employed. 1709 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - All our factories are required to keep careful accounts of all work done in them. 1709 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - I ask the Prime Minister and the Minister of Home Affairs whether they will inquire into these charges in connexion with the Federal Capital to begin with? 1709 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - I have done so. 1709 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - They are made by the Builders and Contractors Journal. 1709 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - They are made upon the authority of men who apparently were at the place, and saw what they complained of. They are made in a public journal, and it is of no use to say that we may ignore such criticism. It is of no use for honorable members opposite to follow the example of the ostrich and, burying their heads in the sand, say "It is all right, there is nothing in them." There are the charges and the proof, and we should have some inquiry. 1709 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - There is no proof, but perhaps some evidence of what is complained of. 1710 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - There is what is known in law as prima facie evidence that something is wrong, and the matter should be looked into. We should know upon what conditions men have been employed at the Federal Capital, ana" whether only New South Wales men are employed there. 1710 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Minister of Home Affairs will tell the honorable member all that. 1710 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - Why should only men from one Slate be employed there? 1710 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - What odds if they are all New South Wales men? 1710 KYJ 0 0 QUICK, John Sir JOHN QUICK - We are dealing with national works in national territory, and men in all the States should have an equal chance of employment upon them. Every Australian citizen should have a fair chance to secure employment in connexion with the building of the Federal Capital. The work should not be confined to the residents of any one State. There should be a central registry for employment established, where men desiring employment in connexion with these undertakings could lie registered and given an opportunity, in their turn, to pass any test required to secure employment. I have dealt with the charges made in connexion with the work at the Federal Capital, and have shown that complaints of the kind referred to are not confined to one journal. I come now to the charges made in the Melbourne Argus, and I direct the attention of the Prime Minister and his colleagues to the fact that two or three serious charges have been formulated in a circumstantial manner. I need read only one paragraph from the Argus to indicate the circumstantial character of the charges - It may bc noted that as far back as February last the inspectors wrote asking the Postmaster-General to receive them as a deputation, in order that they might reilly to certain charges formulated against them by a deputation of the men. There «is on the face of it prima facie evidence of a substratum of truth as the basis of a charge so circumstantially made. I ask the Prime Minister to bring this under the notice of his colleague the Postmaster-General, and see whether the inspectors have been complaining of want of discipline on the part of the men employed in carrying out postal work. Let him ask whether they have been reporting some of the men for refusing to obey orders, and whether they have complained that they have been unable to get them suspended or dismissed The Prime Minister very properly said just now that men in the Public Service who would not do their duty should be dismissed. That is quite right, and I ask. the right honorable gentleman if he will now inquire whether the inspectors have reported men for having refused to do their duty and for having been insubordinate and insolent ? 1710 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable ' member's time has expired. Sitting suspended from 6-jo to 7. 15 p.m. 1710 JXA Hunter 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON . - I agree with 'those honorable members who complain of the non-expenditure of sums voted on the Estimates, but I realize that it may be impossible for a Minister to expend in the financial year the whole of the money allocated to particular works. Circumstances may arise to prevent the work being carried out as expeditiously as was expected, such as unprecedented rains, and so forth ; but, wherever possible, it should be the aim of the Government to see that the votes are expended. I am chiefly concerned with the expenditure in the Postal Department. The Government have done well in placing considerable sums of money at the disposal of the Department in order to provide additional facilities for those who reside in country districts; and I trust that the responsible Minister will exercise all the power he has with a view to seeing that this money is expended in the way intended. Much has been done, but much remains yet to be done; and I feel sure that' the Government will do their utmost to provide the necessary additional facilities. I am pleased to see that the Government recognise the necessity of doing something for the poorly-paid officials in allowance offices, and have allocated a sum of money to that end.. There are some works that personally I am not at all anxious to see hurriedly carried out. On the military side, I think we are, perhaps, going a little too fast. There may be justification for some of the heavy expenditure that is being incurred, but I notice that, on the Military College it is proposed to spend £113,000, and on the Naval College £73.000. 1710 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - The Military College is only a temporary building. 1710 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - It is a large sum of money, and I am doubtful whether we are justified in the expenditure, especially if the building is of a temporary character. We have to find all this money out of revenue ; and if we set ourselves the task of. following out a certain scheme, which involves additional expenditure every year, I am afraid that, in the next two or three years, we shall have taken up more than we can carry. I should, therefore, like to see the Government exercise the pruning knife as much as possible. I may say that I thoroughly approve of carrying out Government works by means of day labour. It is, of course, necessary that criticism should be launched against the proposals of the 'Government, but I deprecate criticism such as that we heard this afternoon from the honorable member for Wakefield. The Leader of the Opposition, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and the honorable member for Bendigo gave us fair criticism ; but the honorable member for Wakefield went to extremes. I take it that the people of Australia, who returned us here to represent them, require us to carefully and calmly review any proposed expenditure, and place our views dispassionately before the country. The honorable member for Wakefield, however, went so far as to say that the day-labour system was costing 50 to 100 per cent, more than would the contract system ; and he ought to have offered some justification for the statement. 1711 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - I said that some of the work carried out under the day-labour system was costing that much more. 1711 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - The honorable member, when challenged, failed to justify his statement ; and yet he asked this House to institute an inquiry. If we are to have an inquiry every time a little criticism is launched against the expenditure of a particular Department, or against the working of any part of the governmental machine, we shall cause considerable expense to the taxpayers, for no one can tell where we shall end if we are called upon to deal with alleged charges. If there is one scintilla of justification for the charge that men are loafing, a strict inquiry should be made, and it can best be made, not by a Select Committee, but by the responsible Minister, who can call for reports from officers in whom he has complete confidence. If any of the employes are found malingering, it is the Minister's duty to take the necessary steps to clear out those who are guilty. I cannot see why works which can be carried out with success by means of contract, cannot be carried out with equal success by means of day labour. A contractor must employ men in whom he has confidence to see that the work is properly performed, and the same can be done in the Commonwealth service. What is to prevent the Government from appointing men equally capable with those who are appointed by contractors, and thus insuring that the work is done on fair lines as between employer and employed? All men should have a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. The honorable member for Wakefield, without offering any proof whatever, said that Mr. Griffith, the Minister of Works in New South Wales, had already spoken eloquently against the system of day labour. I have read most of Mr. Griffith's statements, but I have never seen him yet condemn the day-labour system ; in fact, he has said that it is a success. Only recently, he instanced the State brickworks, and the Kiama quarry as successes ; and all that Mr. Griffith is doing is to introduce, side by side with day labour, a system of paying a percentage of 5 to per cent, to the man in charge of the work on its- cost in accordance with their tender. 1711 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Mr. Griffith is complaining of the same thing that has been complained of here to-day. 1711 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Mr. Griffith is making a test in the way I have indicated ; but I do not agree with his action. If we introduce a system of giving a percentage to the man in charge, over and above the estimated cost, we shall, I am afraid, have scamped work with a view to speed and the bonus, irrespective of quality. I see no need for any plan except that of employing competent men as overseers, whose duty it should be to see that the work is fairly and squarely, performed as between the Government and the employe. I do not believe in any man being rushed ; but, as I say, all should have a fair day's pay for fair day's work. The honorable member for Bendigo has told us that in certain respects he believes in day labour, while in other respects contract labour is the better; but, personally, I believe iri clay labour all round. Contractors in various parts of Australia have in the past made huge fortunes out of Government contracts ; and surely the Commonwealth, or any other Government, can carry out the work just as well, and allow the people, as a whole, to have the benefit of the money thus saved? After ;ill it is the men employed upon these works who have to make a profit for the Commonwealth. I was very pleased to hear the Prime Minister say that he believed in the system of day labour being properly carried out, that he believed in having officers to superintend operations with a view to seeing that justice was done between man and man, and between the employes and the people of the Commonwealth. Under such conditions there can be no reason for the failure of that system. 1712 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Is it done at the present time? 1712 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I believe that it is. I take it that the Minister will make proper inquiries into the charges which have been made by the Argus newspaper. 1712 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - He cannot get the necessary information. 1712 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - If one of our daily newspapers can obtain information of sufficient importance to warrant it in making such grave accusations, surely the Minister will experience no difficulty in ascertaining the true position. If his officers report that conditions are not what they ought to be, it will be his duty- to make a change. As far as the great body of men employed in our public Departments are concerned, I hold that they are good men. I do not believe that there is a scintilla of justification for the charges which have been hurled against the employes under our' day-labour system. My own opinion is that they spring from political bias. In regard to certain works which are in progress in the Federal Territory, the contractors realize that they have been driven to their last ditch, and consequently they will neglect no opportunity of ridiculing the day-labour system with a view to rendering it unpopular. If the Government do their duty they will have an inquiry conducted into the works which are being carried out by them. There can only be one man responsible for any shortcomings on the part of the employes, and that is the officer who is in charge of any particular work. If he fails to do his duty he should be dealt with. The officers in charge of our public undertakings should see that fair value is received for the wages which are paid. If there were anything to justify ail inquiry being made into the methods which are being pursued upon our public works outside of what I have suggested, 1' should unhesitatingly favour the adoption of that course. But if we were to take notice of every statement which is published in the press, and to investigate its truth and falsity, there would be no end to our inquiries. It frequently happens that these statements are made by irresponsible persons. Some honorable members have contended that the time has arrived when we ought to appoint a Public Works Committee upon the lines of the New South Wales Public Works Committee. Personally, I do not think that it has. I fail to» see what works we could remit to such as body. If we are going to refer to a Public Works Committee every Commonwealth1 work which involves an expenditure of more than £20,000, the result will be an endless* waste of time. The Committee would have to visit various parts of Australia, and the chances are that twelve months would, elapse before it arrived at a decision in regard to any particular undertaking. In New South Wales the position is very different. Our engineers and surveyors have* already reported upon the transcontinental railway, and a similar remark is applicable to the proposed line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek. We are practically committed to that undertaking. If the project were referred to a Public Works Committee that body would visit all the State capitals and the Northern Territory, and its inquiry would probably extend over a period of two years. Such a- course of action is entirely unnecessary- Does anybody seriously suggest that works in the Federal Territory, involving am expenditure of more than £20,000, should' be delayed pending the decision of a Public Works Committee? We have heard a good deal about the cost of day labour ,as compared with the contract system, and yet it is now suggested that we should appoint a. Public Works Committee under which considerable cost would be heaped up without any justification. There is all the difference in the world between the position of New South Wales and that of the Commonwealth. We have to deal only with the Northern Territory and the Federal Capital . Already we have a design for the Federal City, and when once Parliament decides that a public building shall be erected there, we shall merely have to determine its location. If such a project were remitted to a Public Works Committee delay would be inevitable. It has been urged that under that system we should exercise control over the expenditure. As a matter of fact we should exercise no control whatever. 1712 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - We should have an idea of whether a work was justifiable or not? 1712 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - We should not. Nobody will say that the public buildings in the Federal Territory are not necessary. We know that most of them are required' within a certain time. I take it that the design of the Capital City which has been, approved will assist us to decide where- those buildings should be located. Consequently, there is no necessity for the appointment of a Public Works Committee. If such a body were appointed, it would have no control whatever over the expenditure, because it would merely recommend whether it was desirable to undertake a public work or not. Parliament would then be called upon to approve or disapprove that work, and if it were approved, the Minister of Home Affairs would have control of it just as he has to-day. I believe that the day-labour system has come to stay, and that any comparison between it and the contract system will work out in its favour. In New South Wales the Railway Commissioner has been carrying out a lot of work by day labour, and up till twelve months ago - I have not the later figures - it was conclusively proved that that system was cheaper than was the contract system. The result has been that almost the whole of the railways constructed there have been carried out by means of day labour. 1713 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Plenty of private firms are using the day-labour system on their own buildings. 1713 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Exactly. Under proper supervision better work is obtained under that system than under the contract system, and without any additional expenditure. The Minister can make the necessary inquiries, and, if he finds any grounds for the statements made from time to time in regard to the system, he should take proper means to have any mistakes or abuses rectified, and see that the system is given a fair and square trial. If he does that, I shall feel quite satisfied as to the result. 1713 JWG Perth 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER .- The honorable member for Hunter has assumed, I think quite in error, that the discussion initiated by the honorable member for Dalley hinges upon the question of contract versus day labour, but he has introduced quite a new phase, I think. The honorable member for Dalley, in commencing this interesting debate- 1713 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - He did not commence it. 1713 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I think that he struck the note which sounded throughout this chamber in a very wholesome fashion indeed, and I have to compliment him upon the courage with which he rose to speak in the way he did. 1713 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - You have to compliment the honorable member for Herbert, as well. 1713 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I have had some experience of what it is to stand up in a party, most of them hostile in regard to a particular point, and to speak one's opinion freely on a question before the House. The honorable member for Dalley pointed out that this was not an ordinary charge, not a mere casual criticism that appears day by day and week by week in an ordinary newspaper, but a much more serious matter. Any honorable member with a sense of proportion must realize that the 'charge which was made in the Argus, and indicated by the honorable member for Dalley, is of a kind which no Government with any regard for its own credit can afford to ignore. It is all very well for the Minister of Home Affairs, in the belief that he has an unbreakable phalanx behind him, to pooh-pooh any inquiries in connexion with matters of which he has charge, or to refuse to give information which honorable members are perfectly entitled to get, but it is quite another thing for the Minister to say, " We are going to take no notice of such charges, and we refuse to see anything in them." The charge indicated here by the honorable member for Dalley is a definite one. We all know - and I think that many honorable members on the other side have an uneasy feeling in this connexion - that public work under this Government is not' being carried on in the way in which it ought to be. No one can go about with his eyes and ears open without being made aware of the fact that there is a good deal of manipulation of work which is not altogether in the interests of the country. The honorable member for Herbert spoke of the necessity for supervision in carrying out public works. There is no doubt that with day labour effective supervision is required ; but something more is wanted. The honorable member pointed out that when he was supervising certain works he was able to say, " I do not care anything for the Minister or for the Government. I am here in a position which requires me to perform certain duties, and those duties I intend to perform." Is that the position with regard to the supervision of Commonwealth work at present? Is it not a fact that at least the Minister of Home Affairs goes over the heads of the responsible officers of his Department, and does things without consideration for them, and without consulting them? Is not that a state of affairs likely to bring about a good deal of demoralization? Is it likely that supervisors or inspectors will assert themselves as they should do when they know that perhaps the men can go past them and get the ear of the Minister in a way which they cannot hope to do, and that they will not get thanked even for the pains which they take in the interests of the public? I have information that that state of affairs is going on in connexion with public works. 1714 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Why do you not let the Minister know of it? 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I have already instanced one case, and I think that the honorable member knows what the attitude of the Minister is towards that. 1714 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Chinn case? 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I think there are more cases than one which could be brought forward if we had a proper inquiry. The honorable member for Wakefield is accused of making charges which he refuses to prove in the House. I do not think it is reasonable to expect him to do that here. 1714 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - He was asked to make a specific charge. 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - What the honorable member for Wakefield asked for, and what I asked for. is a Committee of Inquiry, composed of men with expert knowledge, who would be independent of any political influences, and have power to go into all matters thoroughly. There is a good deal of evidence which could be laid before such a body, but which we cannot give utterance to even in this chamber. 1714 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - You ought to make out a -prima facie case, though. 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - With all respect to the honorable member, I think that a prima facie case has been made out. We have had certain statements made, which are alleged to be statements of fact, and it is for the Government either to refute them or to give an opportunity for them to be probed. 1714 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - There has not been one specific charge made in the chamber to-day. 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I, for one, do not propose to make any specific charges in this connexion; but I know that there is room for a great deal of inquiry. That is what we demand, and what the Government, I think, in all reason, ought to concede. In their own interests, they should make an inquiry, because, if they stand up in the attitude of the Minister of Home Affairs, jeering and sneering at any suggestion of this kind, they may rest assured that a strong suspicion will be created in the public mind that there is something which makes them afraid to grant an inquiry. The best thing they can do, I think, is to accept the suggestion of the honorable member for Dalley in the spirit in which it was made, and satisfy the country as to whether these charges are groundless or well-founded. Almost every year I have had a grumble at a matter to which nearly every honorable member lias referred in connexion with the Works Estimates, and that is the re-voting of sums. I do not want to accuse the Government in this respect, because re-voting has been chronic since the inception of Federation. It is rather a defect of the system under which we are working than a thing which could be laid to the charge of any Government. I notice, however, that there is a greater tendency towards re-voting with some of the States than with others. Apparently in some States the works are carried out much more thoroughly and much more expeditiously than in other States. Western Australia seems to be one of the worst off of the States in this respect. 1714 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - - -It is a very slow place. 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - It is not a very slow place, as the honorable member will find if he takes the trouble to pay us a visit. I can assure him that we shall be able to satisfy, him that it is one of the most up-to-date and most live States in the Commonwealth. There is something wrong with the system of carrying out works in Western Australia for which moneys are voted. I want the Government to ascertain if there is a defect which operates to the disadvantage of Western Australia even more than it appears to do in regard to some of the other States. Mr.- West. - Perhaps the State might have better members. 1714 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - Some of the States have a greater number of members. I do not know that quantity means .quality, but, no doubt, in politics there is great virtue in numbers. Although we have been told that a grand up-to-date post-office is to be erected in Perth, the sum made available for the work this year is only £5,000. A much larger sum might reasonably have been provided for the year's expenditure. I noticed a short time ago that some of those who have properties on the site of this building were making improvements of a somewhat permanent character. That does not indicate a desire on the part of the Government to hurry on the work. In view of the character of the building, .£5,000 is a ridiculously small amount to provide for expenditure upon it in twelve months, and I should like some explanation from the Minister as to whether this is all that will be spent during the current financial- year. If so, and the annual expenditure is to continue at this rate, it will be a good many years before the post-office is an accomplished fact. There is a good deal to recommend the establishment of a Public Works Committee as suggested by some honorable members. Such a Committee would have to be a modification of the body existing in New South Wales. It would have to take over some of the responsibility of the Minister of Home Affairs, who is at present overburdened with the multitude of details that have to be' attended to. 1715 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Such a Committee would give Parliament opportunities for knowing what is going on. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - It would be the medium through which Parliament would be kept informed of the work of the Department. 1715 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - It would practically mean having six Ministers instead of one. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - A Committee could do much of the work for which the Minister has not time. To my mind, it is not the duty of the Minister to attend personally to the numerous details connected with such a work as the construction of the transcontinental railway, for instance. A Public Works Committee would attend to a vast amount of detail, and would give to the Parliament more information than is at present obtainable. A great deal of the work of the Imperial Parliament is done by Committees, which supplement the work of Ministers, and enable the Houses to keep in better touch with the multifarious details of what I may call sub-administration than is possible under our system. 1715 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - It is the same in the United States of America. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - That may be so. Here we boggle along very much in the dark regarding public works under construction. The Minister has introduced an innovation of some value in a circular that he issues to members monthly. That enables us to keep in touch, in some degree, with what is taking place in his Department, but even he will admit that we get only a vague and general idea from it of the work that is being done. I do not suggest that there should be a great amount of printing, but a Committee would always be in a position to throw a flood of light on any question of construction or expenditure. 1715 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Or material used. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - Yes. The Prime Minister has given us to understand that he has introduced a system by which we can know exactly how much is spent on every public work. I hope that that method of bookkeeping will be generally followed. 1715 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - It has been made the rule in regard to all our factories. Absolute debit and credit accounts must be kept. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - The same thing should be done in regard to all public works, such as the undergrounding of telephone wires, for example. 1715 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - It is done in regard to the construction of the building now being erected at the back of the Treasury. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - There should be an estimate made of the value of every work proposed. It is surprising how near an expert can get to the actual cost of a work by estimating it in advance. Given definite rates of wages - which should be possible under this Government - he can tell within a small fraction what a work will cost. Such an estimate ought to be made in connexion with every public work. 1715 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - It is done. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - The, estimates ought to be put on record, and with them statements ' of the actual cost incurred, so that honorable members may know whether the cost of a work has exceeded the estimate. 1715 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - That is done now. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I am glad to hear it. I suggest that the information should be made available to honorable members who desire it. 1715 KFP ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Why not allow a Committee to examine the records ? 1715 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Honorable members can obtain any information they desire from the Treasury. 1715 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - A Works Committee that would supervise expenditure would be a good innovation. Although the Prime Minister tells us that we can get from the Treasury all the information we require, I have found it difficult to obtain anything like detailed information regarding many Government works, and, no doubt, other honorable members have been in the same position. I hope that the result of the debate will be improved methods of dealing with public works, and thus a better, more efficient and economical service, together with a system which will enable honorable members to know exactly what is being done- 1715 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I have been greatly surprised at times at the tone of this debate. A comparatively new member myself, I have heard old parliamentarians complaining about not being able to get information which I have great ease in obtaining on making inquiries at the Departments. Whenever my request for information has been legitimate and reasonable, it has never been denied or refused by a Minister or by officers. I take it that if other honorable members are prepared to show the same energy, they will be placed in exactly the same position as I am. The day-labour question is not a new matter. It is an old friend, and is often brought up simply for party purposes. It has been raised in connexion with nearly every Department that has been run by the State of Victoria. If any State has been subject to criticism on account of it, Victoria, has been, especially in regard to the Newport Workshops. The statement was made over and over again, that, owing to Government supervision and the Government stroke, the action of the Government in taking full charge of the construction of locomotives for the Victorian railways was costing the taxpayers a considerable sum: but investigations made by a/i independent tribunal proved that the locomotives and other machinery were being turned out at the Government workshops at a far cheaper rate than any private individual could possibly do the work for. I regret to have to stale that trie Government of Victoria have been, in recent years, so short-sighted as to permit to be sent out of the country a large amount of work which should have teen carried out in our own workshops. The Victorian taxpayers are losing to-day no less than £150,000 through the action of the Government in sending for engines outside of Australia. That amount of money could have been saved if the engines had been made in the Government workshops. 1716 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - The money could be kept in the country. 1716 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - And the money could be kept- in the country as well. The whole thing is a scandal. It arose simply because certain officials have a tendency to discover, all of a sudden, that they require certain things constructed, allow too limited a time for local people to put in a tender, and then make that an excuse for going beyond the bounds of the Commonwealth in. order to get what is wanted. I hope and trust that the present Government will not be guilty of sending out of Australia for machinery and materials that could be made in Australia by our own workmen. I gather that some dredges are to be obtained by the Defence Department, I presume, to deepen She approaches to naval bases. I understand - and I hope that the Minister who represents the Minister of Defence in this Chamber will take note of this matter - that in connexion with those dredges the officials of the Defence Department - I presume the information refers to them - are allowing too limited a time for Australian manufacturers to tender for the work of making the dredges in Australia. I believe I am only one of many members on both sides of the House who will resent the sending out of Australia of work which can be done here; and I sincerely hope that those dredges, and anything else that we can make for any Government Department, will be made in Australia. 1716 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The Prime Minister promised that the Government would have the dredges made in Australia. 1716 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - At any rate, the complaint has already been made to- me - and it was mentioned to me again as recently as last night - that Australian tenderers are being allowed too short a time to draw up specifications, and put in their tenders for the dredges. 1716 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - That seems a strange position. If tenderers in other parts of the world are given sufficient time to tender, surely those in Australia are being allowed sufficient. 1716 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - The Honorary Minister knows that' when questions have been, put in the House on the subject, the invariable reply has been that the "articles were required in a hurry, and that local tendererscould not comply - with the conditions. Surely, when we know what is required, we ought to give local makers ample opportunity to put in tenders for the work, and,, what is more, to secure it, and have it done by Australian workmen. I take it that the Government are pledged to that principle, and, so far :is I am concerned, if I find1 that the work of constructing many more things is sent out of the Commonwealth, I shall feel that it is time for some one to move the adjournment of the House, and have a full-dress debate on the matter. I resent work being sent out of the Commonwealth that ought to be done here. 1716 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Cheer up ! 1716 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I am a little vigorous on this point, because I feel strongly about it. I do riot care in what State the work is done, so 'long as it is done in Australia by Australian workmen. We can do the work here, and why should it be sent out of Australia, and our men be allowed to walk the streets? 1717 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - We purpose sharing the work all round the States. 1717 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - That will be a good thing. So far as day labour is concerned, whenever I have found that complaints have been going round, and whenever I have had an idea that the correct thing was not being done towards the Government by any man or set of men, I have at once made inquiries at the Department which has charge of the work in question. I have also made very full inquiries with regard to the relative merits of contract work and day labour, as ascertained by the experience of the officers of the Home Affairs Department. I am in a position to state that many of our rifle butts are being constructed at half the cost that used to be incurred under the contract system. I also know that work which has been done at the forts in Victoria and the other States has been better and more cheaply done by day labour than under the old contract system. 1717 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - My trouble is that 1 cannot find any rifle ranges being constructed at all. 1717 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Any requests by country members for necessary works, especially for increased telephonic, telegraphic, and postal facilities, will always have my hearty support. If we are to have people settled in the country, we shall have to make country life more attractive than it is at present. I believe it will be found, when the splendid work that is being put into the new Treasury Buildings for the Commonwealth is completed, that the .day-labour system has paid the Commonwealth better than if the work had been let by contract. With day labour there is no inducement to " scamp " the work. Every man is supposed to put in the best that is in him. I do not think any member on either side of the House is prepared to advocate that the waster, or the man who desires to loaf on his job - or on his fellow-worker on any work - should be engaged on Government or any other work. I know that the officials hi the Home Affairs Department have said that they will not have men whom they do not consider competent to carry out the work intrusted to them. I believe that, as the result of the conditions that prevail, and the wages that are paid, we now have engaged on the various Commonwealth works men who are among the very best to be found in the States. Of course, mistakes will occur, and every man cannot be made to do exactly what we wish him to do. So far as I am concerned, I favour a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. I do not believe in a nigger-driving system. No Britisher ever responds willingly to treatment of that kind. But if you treat a man properly, he will respond in the proper spirit. I have had some experience of the employment of labour - not much, I admit - and I always found that the result of treating men as they ought to be treated was that they responded handsomely and willingly. Employers of labour of considerable experience have testified to the same thing in my presence. Complaint has been made about the necessity for re-voting money for public works purposes, and that works, authorized last year have not been carried out within the specified time. The honorable member for Herbert referred to the fact that on the present occasion a considerable amount of money is being re-voted which ought to have been spent during the past financial year. 1717 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - That kind of thing occurs every year. 1717 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - lt does; but if honorable members turn up the records they will find that the estimates for new public works were not introduced last year until 26th October. That means that the officers responsible for the expenditure of this money had less than nine months, instead of twelve, for the carrying out of the works. The same state of affairs ought not to prevail at the end of the current financial year. 1717 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - We are doing our best this session. 1717 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I remember the promise made at the close of last session by the Postmaster-General. As large sums were voted for the purpose of new and ordinary services, the honorable gentleman promised that extra hands should be employed, in order that the works might be executed within the financial year. I, for one, must join in the complaint that has been made that some of these works have not been carried out. Again, we are called upon to re-vote sums of money which were voted last year. I hope that the same thing will not occur again, and that when the next. Estimates for works and buildings are under consideration, those of us who are here will be able to congratulate the Government on having carried out well and faithfully the works authorized by Parliament. 1717 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Mr Fairbairn - The honorable member is getting a fine lot done in his constituency. 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - If it were not for the works of a naval and military character that are to be executed in my electorate, not much would be done there. It appears to me that the naval and military officers can get almost anything they ask for. 1718 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - Worse luck. 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - We may be going a little too fast in that direction. It is true that we must have defence as an insurance against aggression, and for the protection of the lives and property of the citizens of the Commonwealth. But I should be inclined to lessen the votes for naval and military purposes, if by so doing we could increase the amounts voted for post-offices, the construction of telephone lines, and other services useful to the community. 1718 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - Does the honorable member include rifle ranges? 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Yes, it is very desirable that rifle ranges should be constructed. 1718 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Or manoeuvre areas ? 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I am rather against the acquisition of land for that purpose. It appears to me that the Commonwealth Government are purchasing an enormous amount of property. They are purchasing manoeuvre areas in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, and Tasmania. What with the Northern Territory, the Federal Capital, and the purchases being made in this and other directions, the Commonwealth Government will soon be the owner of an immense amount of land in this country. Another topic that has been introduced in the course of the debate has reference to the appointment of a Public Works Committee. We have a Railways Standing Committee in Victoria, and a Public Works Committee in New South Wales. I am under the impression that like Committees have been appointed by other State Parliaments. But I am in agreement with the honorable member for Hunter in opposing this idea as far as the Commonwealth is concerned. Having regard to the great extent of Australia, and the fact that the Commonwealth has to carry out works in every part, it appears to me that if we appointed a 0Committee to look after the public works that are required north, south, east, and west, we should have to give leave of absence for a session or two to its members. They would seldom be here at all. Undoubtedly we have arrived at a difficulty in regard to public works. It is impossible for one Minister properly to supervise all the branches of the Service which are under the control of the Department of Home Affairs. In my opinion, the functions of the Department, will have to be divided. The work of the Minister should be shared by some other member of the Government - probably by an Honorary Minister. But to appoint a' Public WorksCommittee would be to establish an excrescence on this Parliament. There are too many excrescences in connexion with the State Parliaments, and I do not think that we require anything of the kind here. 1718 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Does the honorable member think that the Victorian Standing Committee on Railways has been a success? 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Yes, but Victoria is a very small patch of Australia. What might be advisable in- Victoria or New South Wales is not even possible in regard to the whole Commonwealth of Australia. 1718 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Victoria is a very rich patch all the same. 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - It is the richest patch in Australia. But a Public Works Committee would be found entirely unworkable when it was sought" to' apply it to the Commonwealth. At present we are overloading the Minister of Home Affairs. He has practically four Departments under his control. It is absolutely impossible for any one man to look after all these concerns with credit to himself and satisfaction to the country. 1718 JW6 0 0 CANN, George Mr Cann - The Minister has a good staff. 1718 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I am glad that he lias, and his staff can, of course, help him considerably. But, nevertheless, the work is too much for one Minister to do. I am a. stickler for having everything, manufactured in Australia that can possibly be done here. I observe that- a number of boats are to be built for the Defence and Customs Departments. I hope that these vessels will be built in Australia. There are docks and ship-builders in Sydney and Melbourne who can carry out such works as well as they can be done in any part of the world. I trust, therefore, that the Government will not send the work out of the Commonwealth. I must compliment the Minister of Home Affairs on this as on other matters - that, notwithstanding that at times the strongest of pressure has been brought to bear upon him to give orders to foreign firms, he has resisted them, and insisted upon locally-made articles being used. The Government may have had to wait a little bit longer, and to pay a little more money for the things required, but it is a good policy. The Defence authorities ought to be compelled to do the same. Let them wait a little longer for what they require, and, if necessary, pay a little more, in order that » work may be done within the Commonwealth. 1719 K99 Lang FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON . - While I sympathize cordially with the Minister of Home Affairs in having to bear the brunt of the attacks in connexion with a great deal of the expenditure proposed in the Works Estimates, I would remind him that he is singled out for this distinction because he happens to be the Minister in charge of the Department responsible for the spending of the money on public works. Criticism of the manner in which work is carried on must necessarily be brought under his notice. But it does not necessarily mean that the attacks are levelled against himself. That will be determined by his own attitude. The object of these criticisms is to bring matters under the notice of the Government in the hope that works will be carried out in a proper manner in the future. It is also hoped that if a certain section of workers have not been honestly doing a fair day's work, and that as a result of their slackness discredit has been brought upon the administration of the Department, steps will be taken to put an end to that state of affairs. I must compliment the honorable member for Hunter and the honorable member for Dalley on the speeches they have made in this connexion. It is a pleasure to the Opposition to hear such a healthy note being sounded occasionally from the Ministerial side of the House, and it inspires us with the belief that the ultimate regeneration of honorable members opposite may not be regarded as absolutely hopeless. As the discussion from the Ministerial side seems to have centered largely round the question of day versus contract labour, I may say at once that I have not heard any honorable member on this side of the House championing contract as against day labour, nor do I know that any member of the Opposition has a prejudice against day labour. All that we contend is that in connexion with public works that are carried out by day labour, the interests of the' public should be safeguarded by seeing that a fair day's work is given for the pay received out of the public funds. I am glad that at least some honorable members opposite are in agreement with us in this regard- It is a pleasure to listen to the honorable member for Hunter, because, when he rises to speak, he has generally something sensible to say to the House. As to the charges that have been made by the Argus, I would remind the Committee that it is not the business of the Opposition to try to prove them; it is their duty only to bring them under the notice of the Minister, and to ask that he shall look into them if he has not already done so. The suggestion made by the honorable member for Hunter, that the Minister should send his own officers to make a personal investigation of these works and to see that everything is proceeding satisfactorily, ought certainly to be adopted. It is all very well for the Minister to say that the charges are false ; but we have to remember that they are not made by an irresponsible journal. The instances cited are so specific in character and so circumstantial in their nature as to suggest that information has been obtained from inside departmental sources, and that they have not been put forward merely as kites flown for the purpose of eliciting information, and on the off chance that something may be wrong. We see in the newspapers day after day letters drawing attention to the same sort of thing, and inviting Ministers to inspect specific works detailed in those letters. In view of all these circumstances there is reasonable ground for an investigation by an unbiased non-political committee if the Minister himself is not prepared to make a personal inquiry. Such an investigation should be made in the interests of honest workmen employed by the Commonwealth. I am not one of those who oppose day labour, nor am I prepared to believe all that contractors are prepared to say about day labourers. We know that there is a certain element of self-interest behind a great deal that may be said on that side, but making due allowance for exaggerations that may be prompted by sel f - interest, it seems to me that these statements, made by one of the most responsible newspapers in Australia, are of such a. serious character that they cannot be made light of. Coming from such a source, the least the Government can do to clear the atmosphere, and also to remove any stigma that may rest upon honest workmen, is to appoint a Committee to investigate the charges. If it is found that there are employed in connexion with Commonwealth works men who are not giving a fair return for the money they receive, they should be weeded out, and men who will be more honest in their service - any number of whom, I am sure, may be obtained in this country - should take their places. It is not fair to the great body of good men employed that they should have to suffer in repute through the few whose conduct has been made the subject of such strong press condemnation. That unsatisfactory workmen are employed, if not on Commonwealth works, at least in' connexion with State employment, is shown by certain action which has been taken by the Minister of Public Works for New South Wales, and what is happening in connexion with State employment may very reasonably be expected to occur in connexion with Commonwealth employment, unless proper supervision is enforced by the Minister standing behind his overseers. It is alleged, at all events by a responsible newspaper, that a certain measure of malingering, a certain amount of loafing, of drunkenness, and what is known as the ca'-canny system of working is going on, and it is reasonable to believe that there may be something in these charges. It is worth while quoting the following extract from an official letter which has been sent by Mr. W. J. Hannan, Under-Secretary of Works in New South Wales, on behalf of Mr. Griffith, Minister of Public Works, to the executive of different unions in that State - In a service such as the Public Service of this State - and " Commonwealth " might very well be substituted for the word " State" - carrying out large public works over an immense area, and employing large and increasing numbers of men, it must happen in the ordinary course of business that a considerable proportion of these will be found, from some cause or another, unsatisfactory, and bc removed from the service. In almost every case the workman so dismissed considers that he has a grievance, which he very properly brings before his union. Up to the present some of the unions have made it a practice, as a matter of course, to support the claim of their member so dismissed without serious investigation. It frequently happens that a workman is dismissed for carelessness or incompetency, and such workman's cause is championed by his union because lie happens to be a good fellow and a good unionist, whereas the Minister requires that he should be a good workman. The following facts are illustrative of the methods to which, in this regard, Mr. Griffith takes exception : - The secretary of a union telephoned to the Department, alleging that two of its members had been paid at a shilling per day below the proper rate. Inquiries were instituted, and papers hunted up. A long correspondence with the officer in charge of the work ensued, with the final result that it was ascertained that one of the two men was never employed on the works and the other had been paid the full rate. It is probable that, counting lengthy interviews between officers of the union and high-salaried officers of this Department, the time involved in making investigations and conducting correspondence, looking up documents and receipts, together with the amount paid for telegrams, the cost to the. State might have been anything up to ^50 for the investigation of what was, after all, a " mare's nest." That is a fairly strong indictment. 1720 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Does it not show that the Minister of Public Works in New South Wales is anxious that public works shall be carried out effectively? 1720 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Certainly it does ; but it shows something more, too. It shows that all is not as it should be in connexion with State day-labour work, and there is need for Ministerial firmness. That is what is wanted here also. The point is that we have in this official letter the important admission by the Minister that the unions themselves are intervening for the purpose of securing the reinstatement of men who have been dismissed without taking the trouble to investigate such cases. 1720 K5D ALP 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - They have never done it with me. 1720 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - This is a statement made, not by a newspaper or any irresponsible party outside, but oy the New South Wales Minister of Works. As a further example of what we may come to if this kind of thing is not Checked in the early stages of development, I may refer honorable members to the notorious Fitzroy dock scandal and to the Prince Alfred hospital scandal in New South Wales. As honorable members are no doubt aware, Royal Commissions had to be appointed to investigate some of these things. I. have before me the evidence taken by a Royal Commission that inquired into the Fitzroy dock scandal, and I warn the Minister of Home Affairs that what happened in that case may occur in connexion with Commonwealth public works if he is not very careful in the administration of his Department. We may yet be faced with scandals which may require investigations of a similar character. I quote the following - The evidence taken before the Royal Commission shows that on occasions when it has been necessary to reduce hands political influence has been used upon the Superintendents to reinstate men. " The office of Superintendent," says the official report, "is thus deprived of the dignity and respect which it should command from the workmen, and the Superintendent himself disheartened so that he ceases to urge necessary economies lest he should suffer further the humiliation of seeing his recommendations ignored." Here is a reference to a special case- A man named Sexton was sent away, and the Minister sent him back again. I think I sent him away twice, and the Minister sent him back. 1721 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - What report is the honorable member quoting from? 1721 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - The report of the Royal Commission that inquired into the Fitzroy dock scandal. I do not say that we have reached such a state of affairs yet, but I am pointing out what may happen unless we are careful to nip this kind of thing in the bud if it is going on in connexion with Commonwealth works. I do not say that it is, but we hear references to it on the trams and in the trains, and, in addition, we have had a specific declaration on the subject on the authority of a reputable newspaper, which would not, I think, permit the use of its columns to lightly make unfounded charges of such a serious nature as those contained under the heading of " The Mail on the Job." To continue the quotation - The last time he came back he said, " Are you going to put me on again?" I said, "I cannot, in the face of the foreman's objection to you." He said, "You ought to; take that," handing me the Minister's order to put him on again. What the man handed to the superintendent was a letter from the Minister authorizing his reinstatement. 1721 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - How long ago was this? 1721 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Speaking from, memory, and subject to correction, I think it was when Mr. O'sullivan was Minister of Public Works in New South Wales. However, honorable members can look up the Commission's report for themselves. The evidence taken by the Commission shows what is possible under the day-labour system if it is not properly supervised. I do not say anything against the system. As a matter of fact, I am a firm believer in it, but with it there should be effective supervision. I realize that inspectors, foremen, and gangers may easily become unpopular by insisting upon men doing a fair day's work. Where there is even a small percentage of the men engaged upon a job who want to Iaaf, and an inspector, foreman, or ganger insists that they shall do as other , leil, . a fair day's work foc the wages paid then, the malcontents are likely to get such a man " set," to use a popular expression, and to give him a very uncomfortable time by processes which are very well known to my honorable friends opposite. 1721 KZG 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr Roberts - Can the honorable member tell us, approximately, how many decades old his last quotation was ? 1721 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - It is only of comparatively recent date. Honorable members opposite have only to get a copy of the report of the Commission on the Fitzroy dock scandal to see for themselves what happened. I believe that the condition of things then existing has since been set right, but we do not want to develop that kind of thing in connexion with Commonwealth work, and in order to prevent it we should deal with it firmly at its very inception. We should let it be understood that while the Commonwealth Government are prepared to pay the highest wages for the work they require to be done, they will insist that a fair return shall be given for the money, which has- to come out of the taxpayers' pockets, and largely out of the pockets of the wage-earners themselves.- That must not be forgotten. Any loafing upon a Commonwealth work means a fraud upon fellow-workers, who have to find about 75 per cent, of the taxation out of which this money has to be paid. I pass now to the question of the building which is being erected for the Treasury Department in Melbourne. I have raised my voice before against what I consider wholly unwarrantable expenditure on buildings of a permanent character in Melbourne. We are spending huge sums of money, chiefly in Melbourne, which should be spent on permanent buildings of the same character in the Federal Territory. I say that the time is coming when it will be necessary for representatives of New South Wales, no matter on which side they sit, to band themselves together and stand up for the rights of the State under the Federal compact. I believe we shall have the support of some honorable members from the other States if we do so. Far too much money is being spent by the Commonwealth in Victoria, and particularly in Melbourne. I attribute this largely to the fact that the Federal Parliament meets in Melbourne, and the sooner we get away from the influence of Melbourne, its press, and politicians, and get into the Federal Capital, the better it will be for everybody concerned. We are spending hundreds of thousands of pounds here 011 ' the erection of buildings on enormously valuable sites, and every penny of the money should be spent on permanent buildings of a similar character in the Federal Capital. Why is it not done? Here we have a Minister of Home Affairs who says that he is no " rubber-stamp Minister." Let him show that he is not by insisting upon this money being spent where honorable members on both sides have declared over and over again it ought to be spent. 1722 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - What buildings is the honorable member referring to? 1722 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - The buildings for the Treasury Department and for other Departments, Woollen Mills, Clothing Factories, and others. I find that a further sum of £22,750 is to be voted in connexion with the building for the Commonwealth Treasurer in Melbourne. 1722 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - We must have these buildings in Melbourne, even after the Seat of Government is removed to the Federal Capital. 1722 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - I do not see that we shall need these' permanent buildings which are now being erected for the Commonwealth. We might do with buildings of a very much less pretentious character. We might hire, or even purchase, one large building, which I might mention if it were not for the fact that values might go up suddenly if I did, in which all the branch Federal offices might be established in Melbourne when the Seat of Government is removed to the Federal Capital. If the Minister is not going to spend money on the erection in the Federal Capital of buildings for the Federal Parliament and administrative offices, it is evident that the Parliament will continue for a prolonged period to meet in Melbourne, and that is not a desirable thing for the Federation. I cannot see how we are going to move at all, at the present rate of progress. I notice that for the Clothing Factory it is proposed to vote£7,000. Last year we were asked to vote £6,700 under this head, and a sum of £1,121 in excess of that has already been spent. Where are the honorable members and Ministers who indorsed the principle that these permanent institutions should, as far as practicable, be located in the Federal Territory? I further see that a sum of £8,000 is set down towards the acquisition of a site for the woollen mills. 1722 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - The sum is £15,000. 1722 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - I am speaking of the preliminary sums for works immediately proposed in these Estimates. The location of the mills is not mentioned specifically, but a search through the Estimates reveals the item buried under a generalizing heading. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether this means the Geelong site? It is a crying shame that all this expenditure should be centered in Victoria, while, as soon as there is a mention of a vote for New South Wales, even if it be only for the construction of a dredge, the parish-pump type of Victorian politician is up in arms and talking about "the broad national view." We do not ask that money should be unfairly spent in New South Wales, but only that there should be a fair deal. The mills to which I have referred ought to be established in the Federal Territory, though, of course, not necessarily at Yass-Canberra. It has been said that the water supply there is not sufficient ; but the records of the gauges at the rivers are a sufficient contradiction. There is water in abundance over and above any claims that have been made in favour of the Federal Capital area. Then the Naval College has to be established at Geelong. Why this concentration of expenditure at Geelong? What has Geelong done that all these Commonwealth works should be concentrated there? We used to hear of Geelong as a very pleasant seaside village in which to spend a few hours; but lately it has been pushed into prominence in a way that necessarily attracts our attention and criticism, and there is every reason to believe that this lavish expenditure of public funds in the neighbourhood of Geelong is more political than otherwise. It is a remarkable fact, but whenever expenditure is proposed in New South Wales, we hear objections raised by Victorians, mostly in the Labour corner, but also in the Opposition corner. There is an awful outcry, and we are urged to take a " broad national view." Right! Let us do so; but we invariably find that this " broad national view " is bounded by Victoria. The " broad national outlook " of the honorable member for Corio is bounded by Corio Bay. 1722 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Did I not offer the honorable member the military stables ? 1722 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - I do not know ; I am not after stables, but after justice for New South Wales and every part of Australia. Every State has a right to a fair deal, and every State should have the benefit of necessary expenditure. We ' must not distribute expenditure so as to inflict injustice on any section of the community ; and I am opposing these votes because I see that injustice is being done, not only to a State, a district, or the Federal Capital area, but to the country as a whole. 1723 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Is there not a very good site for the woollen mills at Marrickville ? 1723 K99 FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - One of the best ; but I am not asking that the woollen mills should be established there - I am taking a "broad national outlook." I do happen to represent a district which is eminently suitable for the establishment of woollen mills, and where some of the finest woollen goods are manufactured - so good, indeed, are they, that they have a world-wide reputation. I am sufficiently patriotic, however, to recognise that we have a Federal Capital area common to all the States, an area which, though carved out of New South Wales, and ten times the size originally contemplated, has, with that generosity characteristic of its people, teen given cheerfully. I am merely urging that our Commonwealth Territory should have the benefit of the expenditure on these public works. I realize that, in any case, these works will have to be established in the Federal area, and that the present expenditure simply means duplication and waste. As showing the " broad national view " taken in Victoria, I may mention that a number of pettifogging municipal district bodies, of whom nobody ever heard before, are passing resolutions protesting against the Federal Capital being established in New South Wales, and against any further work being proceeded with in connexion with the Capital city. Those concerned in this agitation ask that there shall be a referendum ; but my reply is that a referendum was taken when the Constitution Bill was approved, and a solemn compact entered into with New South Wales. They are not prepared to honour the compact. 1723 JM8 Hindmarsh 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD . - There may be an advantage in discussing the Works and Buildings Estimates as soon as possible after the delivery of the Budget, but one of the disadvantages attaching to the practice is that it induces honorable members to speak upon various items when, under other circumstances, they might not be disposed to do so. I recognise that, if we delay our criticisms upon these items until the Estimates-in-Chief are under consideration, we shall then be told that it is idle to talk about them, because the money has already been voted. But I rose, not to enter into an academic discussion upon the claims of New South Wales and Victoria, but to call attention to an item of £5i°0°: which I regret to see included in the Estimates for the Northern Territory. It reads : - " Railway construction survey from Pine Creek to Katherine. ' ' The amount involved is not a large one, but there is an old saying that a straw will show which way the wind blows. I take it that this item indicates that lt is the policy of the Government to start railway construction in the Territory at the Pine Creek end. T warn the Committee to act cautiously in this matter.' I protest against railway construction from the northern end of the Territory for several reasons. We shall be handicapped by the climate, by the tremendous expenditure which will be involved, by the difficulty of securing labour, and in many other directions. It is the duty of this Parliament to see that the Territory is opened up for development as quickly as possible. I recognise that the Commonwealth is rich, thanks to the prosperous seasons which it has enjoyed, but it is not so rich that we can afford to waste money. For that reason I protest against this vote, which means approving- of a policy which must involve an enormous expenditure. The development of the Northern Territory must come from the southern end. There are certain portions of Northern Australia - I suppose fully one-third of it - which are not more than 50 feet above sea-level. Any person with a grain of common sense must recognise that we cannot develop the Territory from those portions of it which are very little above sealevel. 1723 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Or very little below it. 1723 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - There is not much of that country. 1723 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - Undoubtedly the higher lands of the Territory are located in the southern part of it, and not in the northern. We all know what are the conditions in Australia during the months of January and February. The settlement of the Territory must proceed from the southern portion of it, with the advent of the railway. 1723 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Every other State has been developed from the coast. 1723 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - My honorable friend reminds me of the remark of Thiers, who, in speaking of the Bourbon princes, said " they had forgot nothing and learned nothing." 1724 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - That does not answer my interjection. ' 1724 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - Because, sixty or seventy years ago our forebears landed in Australia from light-draught vessels, and settled in spots which commended themselves to their judgment, is that any reason why we should not profit by their experience? I admit that the amount involved in this particular vote is not a large one. 1724 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - How much ? 1724 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - About £5,000. 1724 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - That is too much. 1724 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - I am not complaining of the amount, but I object to the Committee being pledged to a particular policy in this way. I wish now to call attention to the question of the Federal Capital. We are not spending much money in that direction. I am not interested in the question of Victoria versus New South Wales in regard to the site of the Federal Capital, but I think that no harm would be done if we did not spend any money there for the next ten years. There is one thing to which we are pledged by the Constitution, and that is that the Capital of the Commonwealth shall be in New South Wales. I ask any member of this House if, in their treatment of the Federal Government, the policy of the Sydney Government, whether Labour or Conservative, has not been most niggardly ? 1724 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Not so far as land for the Capital is concerned. 1724 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - I do not know so much about that. I do not charge the people of New South Wales with approving of a niggardly policy towards the Commonwealth, but undoubtedly the policy of the New South Wales Government is that the Federal Capital shall be a second or third-rate city, for fear that it might become a rival of Sydney. It is an historic fact that the State Righters, not of New South Wales only, but throughout the Commonwealth, are the enemies of the Federal Government and this Parliament. In regard to the Federal Capital, there is no difference in New South Wales between a Labour and a Liberal Government. I feel absolutely certain that the feeling of the masses of the people of Australia is that, for a couple of generations, the seat of Government should be alternately in Melbourne and Sydney for ten years. The people of this generation are not fit to deal with this question. The State Righters' brigade is so strong, so prejudiced, and so bitter against the Federal system of government that whatever we may do in this generation we cannot do justice to building up the Federal Capital. 1724 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - The people will not stand that for long, though. 1724 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - The people of this generation cannot get out of their environment, but their children and grandchildren will grow up in a different environment, and when this bitter hatred of the Federal system has died down we shall find a Government existing in Sydney, and probably in Melbourne too, which will be prepared to deal justly and generously with the rights and the aspirations of the people of Australia. We ought to have a Federal Capital, but it should be one worthy of the Australian people. I am sorry to say that we are all more or less under the influence of the embittered feeling that obtains to-day, and are, therefore, not competent to deal with this question as it should be dealt with. I do not wish to refer to other items. These are two items for which I do not wish to vote any money, and, therefore, I thought it my duty to the Committee and the country to state as early as possible my reasons for holding the strong views that I do. 1724 KXP Echuca 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER .- There appears to me, from the experience of the past, to be no justification for assuming that, although £20,500,000 is set down as the estimated expenditure for the current year, that amount will not be very seriously increased. When I refer to the Estimates for 1911-12, I find that of the total appropriation of £19,515,000, £1,105,684 was not expended, while the actual expenditure for the year was £20,546,361, so that the expenditure for last year, without appropriation, was £2,137,045. If that was the case last year, there is no reason to suppose that there may not be a very considerable sum expended in excess of the £20,500,000 which is provided for in these Estimates. With regard to the Northern Territory, there is an important fact to consider, and that is that up to the present time its population has been a diminishing nne. Owing to the strenuous efforts of South Australia some years ago, there was a considerable number of people located in the Northern Territory, but, according to Knibbs, this year there is an excess of deaths over births and of departures over arrivals. In view of this fact, it does seem to me that we are asked to sanction the expenditure of a very large amount, not on works which may be regarded as necessary for developmental purposes, but on works which are more or less of a fanciful nature, such as the following items, the first of which is, perhaps, the least objectionable of the lot : - Additions to Darwin Hospital, £1,650 ; houses for Government employés, £21,000 ; railway and construction survey from Pine Creek to Katherine, £4,200; erection and equipment steam laundry, £1,000; new court-house and warden's office, Pine Creek, £6,000 ; public works store, £4,000 ; and additional office accommodation, £4,000.I might go through the rest of the items, but shall content myself with calling the attention of the Committee to the meagre population of the Territory. If it justifies such items of expenditure as appear on these Estimates I have no common sense at all. In 1910 the population comprised 729 males, 166 females, and 157 children. The proposed expenditure is altogether out of proportion to the condition of things existing in the Northern Territory. The proposed expenditure on new works in the current year is £58,540. 1725 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - Is not that enough? 1725 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - We should first be assured that we are likely to get a considerable population before we expend a large sum on such a work as the erection and equipment of a steam laundry. I do nor know why a steam laundry is wanted when the population is so small. Cleanliness is next to godliness, but I do not think that this expenditure is justified. The first need is a policy which will induce people to go to the Northern Territory. When there is population, it will be time enough to provide the necessaries and comforts required. To precede settlement by works of this character is to put on the people of Australia, and in particular on those in the eastern States, an unfair and unreasonable charge. The heavy expenditure on public works to which we are already committed should make us pause in regard to the Federal Capital. In this matter I am hopelessly out of touch with the honorable member for Lang. In my view, there is no justification for expenditure on the Federal Capital at present. There are railways, developmental works, and defence works to be undertaken, all of which mean immense expense, and will impose a very heavy per capita charge upon the people. We should, therefore, defer all superfluous expenditure. 1725 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - What State does the honorable member represent? 1725 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - I have the honour to represent Australia. An aspect of the question worthy of attention is this : These Estimates are the first to come before us since the Minister of Home Affairs published his determination to give preference to unionists. The preliminary work in connexion with the Federal Capital is controlled by the Minister. This is, therefore, a serious matter. 1725 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The honorable member's party in conference said that it was in favour of preference to unionists. 1725 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - I answer only for myself. To give preference to a section in the carrying out of national works is a sin against the community, and in giving preference to those of a certain political colour you of necessity exclude others who may perhaps number amongst them the best workers in the land. 1725 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - The others are certainly taxpayers. 1725 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - Yes. A man who had enough spirit to say that he would not swim with the stream unless he were convinced that it was going in the right direction would be likely to be a better man than another who would not struggle against it. That, however, is a debatable subject on which I shall not enter. So far as the Minister is concerned, the question is not whether the man applying for work is a good man, but whether he is a unionist. 1725 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - The honorable member is mistaken. 1725 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - Then has the Minister retreated from his position? Was his famous intimation in regard to preference to unionists merely a display of fireworks? I do not propose' to discuss the relative merits of the day-labour and contract systems, but the Committee is entitled to know from the Minister whether certain definite charges which have been made against his Department are or are not true. The honorable member for Bendigo referred to an article which has been published in the Argus under the heading, " The Man on the Job," and pointed out that it contains a succession of definite charges. If these charges can be met by the Home Affairs Department- 1726 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - The work referred to _ is not being carried out by the Home Affairs Department. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - Then the charges should be met by the Department concerned. This is one statement - and I am sorry that the Prime Minister is not present to hear it - Take, for instance, the case of a " man on the job who familiarly and apparently successfully wrote to the Prime Minister as " Dear Comrade," and signed himself " Fraternally yours," &c. If the right honorable gentleman were here he would be able to say whether he received such a letter. 1726 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - He has denied it. 1726 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - That labourer is as good as the Prime Minister or any other man in Australia. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - There is fitness to be observed in all things, and while the employ£ as well as the employer has his rights, I take it that when the employer is the Prime Minister, he should be addressed with respect, and with a proper regard for his dignity. 1726 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - What is lacking in the word " comrade" ? 1726 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - I have heard a general officer appeal to his men as comrades. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - The quotation continues - This labourer took time off on one occasion to interview the Prime Minister. Mr. Fisher's secretary referred him to the Postmaster-General, but the man, replying that " the Postmaster-General was no use to him," insisted on seeing the Prime Minister. He saw him. Later on he turned up at the trench, with two other convivial spirits, so drunk that he fell into the trench. This incident was duly reported. But was the man discharged? Of course not. He was shifted on to another gang. Thus kindly do Ministerial comrades protect their fellows. 1726 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Does not the honorable member in Methodist prayer meetings call other people '"'brother'.'? There is no harm in it. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - I know the capability of the Minister for turning everything into ridicule. 1726 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - I am not doing so. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - No workman, unless sure of his ground, would approach the Prime Minister in that way. That man knew that, being of the same political kidney, and under the control of the unions, the Prime Minister was not free to dismiss him. The following definite statement is made by the Argus of what the present system is costing the public in these works - Meanwhile the public are paying a weekly bill on this work of .£1,700. There are those among the officials who declare that as much as 30 per cent, of the money is being wasted. That is a definite charge. Will the documents and records in the Department refute it and other charges? if the Government make no attempt to refute them, they must stand, and we are justified in telling our constituents that these things exist, and that under the a gis of the Labour Government 30 per cent, of the public money is being wasted and squandered because the party in power represent those who are employed J in these works. It is the business of the Government to disprove the charges, and, failing an adequate disproof, we are justified in assuming that they are true. Certainly, that will be my attitude. 1726 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Any fool can make charges. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - And any honest man when he is able to refute an unjust charge is only too ready to do so. It is when a man is not able to refute a charge that he shrinks and shrivels up, and looks ashamed of himself. I am sure the Minister of Home Affairs is now looking rather ashamed of himself in connexion with these matters. The inspectors in charge of these men are said to have reported them, and the following statement is made - It was bitterly complained in this report that no notice is taken of the complaints by inspectors of open defiance by the men. under them Even charges of assault were allowed to go unanswered as though they had never been made. If that be true, and in the absence of a denial, I assume that it is true- 1726 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Why should you assume? You are slandering the working men of this country. 1726 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - I am not making the statement. I simply accept a charge that has been made, and am justified in holding it to be true unless those who are interested choose to refute it. Under the state of things that has been disclosed, there can be no discipline. If the Government are going to enter upon the great public undertakings of this country by a system of day labour, under which there can be no discipline, they are going to pay anything from 1 5 to 30 or 50 per cent, more than they ought to pay. That is a serious position for the taxpayers to face. The Argus goes on to assert - The fact is that there is enough evidence in the files of the Department to convict the Administration of the wanton use of public funds. Any "waster" with a plaintive tale can secure a place on a job, and remain there in defiance of inspectors and responsible permanent officers. Nothing more damaging has ever come under my notice. That statement is made, not by a nondescript journal, but by a journal of known reputation in Victoria. It deliberately levels a charge against the administration of the Public Departments of the Commonwealth. The position will undoubtedly be grasped by the public of Australia where they see charges of this nature levelled against those in whom they have had confidence and whom they returned to power on 13th April two years ago. They will now say, " This is a serious thing that has come to pass. The cry of the Labour party at the last election was, ' Give us a trial.' They have had their trial, and this is the way they have justified it." 1727 KXK Gwydir 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER .- I have listened with some degree of pleasure to the honorable member for Echuca, because I never thought he had so much of the pugilistic element in his composition as he has shown to-night. He has told the Committee that he disapproves of the expenditure of money in the Northern Territory, but he bases his disagreement on the smallness of the population there, and not on the necessities of the Territory or the danger to Australia of its emptiness. This 1 ' large Australian " bases his opposition upon something that he cannot remedy, and refuses to encourage the Government to spend money in order to make the Territory fit for occupation by white men, and so help to remove the danger that is alleged to exist in that part of the continent. I cannot see the logic of his contention. I take it that if there were a large population there, he would be prepared to spend millions, but he knows, as well as I do, that we cannot get a large population into the Northern Territory without spending money. We shall have to watch what is done there in order to see whether the money is spent wisely or not. 1 desire to compliment the Government 01 the progressive policy embodied in these' Estimates with regard to the expansion of the telegraphic and telephonic systems, and with regard also to improvements that are to be made to a very large degree in the post-offices of the Commonwealth. I have, never since I have been a member of Parliament, seen Estimates presented which have shown so markedly that the Government had the courage to do the right thing in a proper way. The Postal Department has been starved from the beginning of Federation, and even before, and I am pleased that at last a solid attempt is being made to remove the disabilities that have grown out of an imperfect system. I hope the Minister of Home Affairs will see, not only that the money is spent, but that it is spent well, and that the post-offices that are to be built are constructed with a due regard to the exigencies of a growing population, and hygienic conditions, while seeing that the internal arrangements are such as to enable economies to be effected in management, and supervision improved. By these means, both the public and the men who serve the public will be made more contented. Any man can spend money, but to spend money wisely requires keen supervision and a keen determination to get the best value for it. Those of us who represent country districts will be delighted to know that, so far as concerns telegraphic and telephonic facilities, although all the money available last year was not spent, largely, I believe, on account of the scarcity of labour, and partly on account of the scarcity of material owing to labour disruptions in other lands, the money is nevertheless there to spend this year, and that we are likely to have sufficient labour in Australia to enable us to fulfil our obligations in that regard. I am proud to see that money has been placed on the Estimates, so that it cannot be said that Parliament has not been liberal in respect to giving the Government money to provide facilities in country districts. The telephone is the greatest civilizer at our command. It brings people together who would otherwise be far apart. It is an economizer of time. By its means the man in the back-blocks is brought into close juxtaposition with the man in the city. It is the means of saving money. It is often the means of saving lives. It helps to preserve health. The extension of these facilities in the country is the most useful work which the Government can take in hand, as every telephone line that we construct adds to the comfort, the welfare, and the happiness ox the community. I am in the happy position o* being able to acknowledge that this Government are doing things more rapidly than they have ever before been done by any Government in Australia - State or Federal. Probably our friends opposite will reply, "Yes, but you have the money." The answer is that we have had to devise ways and means for obtaining the money. We had the courage to initiate a policy that would bring in money, and when we got it, we had the courage to spend it for the benefit of the people. In regard to the expenditure of the money, it is inevitable that, in organizing a system in connexion with the various ramifications of Government work throughout the country, difficulties should be experienced. During the last two years the obligation has been laid upon this Government., not only to lay the foundation of a new system, but to introduce very rapidly - perhaps too rapidly - the day-labour system of carrying on public works. I wish the members of the Opposition would be reasonable and recognise that a change of system necessarily brings us face to face with difficulties. You meet with men who do not " fill the bill." You meet with many men who are unsympathetic towards the policy you have in view. You meet with men who are not competent for the work they are appointed to perform. That is the root of the complaint with regard to day labour in our Public Service. We have, first of all, to get the right men, and then to allot them to the employment for which they are fitted. The same difficulties are being experienced by the Government as are experienced by private employers. Do honorable members opposite mean to tell me that every private employer - every man who has men working for him - is getting full satisfaction out of all of them? I will venture to say that under the labour conditions that exist in Australia there is not one employer of any note, who is employing any considerable number of men, who has not to put up with many whom he would rather be without, because he cannot get better at present. The same thing must happen to the Government. I do say - and I say this definitely - that I regard much that is happening in connexion with the day-labour system with sorrow. I wish well to the system. I know that it is capable of good results. I regard with keen regret the fact that a section of the men who are being employed are not giving that return to the country that is due from them on account of the money which they receive, lt is of no use to mince matters. Any man who knows anything about work, who knows the value of work, and who knows what should be done for a fair day's wage, cannot, if he goes along and watches many men at work, say that he is wholly satisfied with existing conditions. We are not getting the results that we should have in connexion with our public works, whether in the Federal or State arena. There are- men who get into the Service, just as there are men who get into private employment, who will not do the fair thing. In a private employer's service there is a way of dealing with them. The same ought to be the case in the Public Service. The sooner the Minister recognises that, and the sooner he gets rid of an element which, if continued, is going to disintegrate the system and undermine the interests of the better class of workmen, the better it will be for his own comfort and for the welfare of the Department which he controls. The Minister ought to have the courage to say, " We do not want )'0u, if you are not prepared to give the Government a fair return for the money we pay you." If it were known that such was the attitude of the Minister, and that he was prepared to enforce it, I venture to say that the trouble would disappear within a reasonable time. I remember when, in New South Wales, the Hon. E. W. O'sullivan, as Minister of Public Works, introduced a new system for the benefit of the worker. His object was to cut out the contractor, so as to secure that his profit should be divided between the worker and the Government. His intentions were of the best, but his heart was too big. When a man came to O'sullivan and made an appeal to him, he could not resist it. I tell the Minister that he will never succeed while he allows men to touch the sympathetic side of his nature, and make it control the reasoning side, with the consequence of inducing him to put on again undeserving men who have been turned off. The result in New South Wales was that the new system fell into disrepute, and was banished from the arena of politics. The same will happen here, unless we have in charge a Minister who will have the courage to do the right thing. Men should not be allowed to override just discipline; because it must be remembered that no employes are treated so well as are those engaged on Government work. No man is asked to do more than a reasonable thing, and when men are properly treated and well paid, there is every reason why fair results should be expected from them. I say, with very great regret, that there is a section - not a large one, perhaps, but sufficiently large to injure the others - who are not doing the right thing to the Government that are employing them. Something has been said in the course of this debate about the appointment of a Public Works Committee. I feel that there is a necessity for something of the kind to be done. I do not think it is necessary to have such an elaborate system, such as exists in New South Wales, because we have not the same sort of work to do. But we certainly do need some kind of supervisory body or Committee of inquiry. If we had had such a Committee, many of the things which have been done in the Commonwealth would have been avoided, and money would have been saved. Take the money that was spent in the alteration of the Mail Branch at the Sydney General Post Office. That money would never have been expended if evidence had been taken beforehand as to the wisdom of the proposed alteration. The discomfort that has been caused to the men employed would have been avoided, and the disorganization that has, resulted would not have happened. 1729 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The present system cannot go on, it seems to me. 1729 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - No; as I say, there is a lack of originality on the part of our permanent officers that is injurious to the Commonwealth. They have been brought up in a groove; they have been running in grooves for a number of years. They cannot get out of their grooves. Their environment is too restricted. They are unable to comply with the conditions which the people require to-day. 1729 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Officers are not supposed to initiate a policy. 1729 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - But they are supposed to know how to improve existing conditions, and unless they are competent to meet the requirements of the country they are not fit for their positions. There is a lamentable lack of foresight on the part of the average public servant in Australia. No matter whether it be in the Public Works Department, the Postal Department, or even the Defence Department, we find a lack of originality all along the line. Men move in the performance of their duties as though they were mere automata, instead of reasoning beings. 1729 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Not the junior officers. 1729 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The junior officers are kept down. The trouble is that men have risen more because of seniority than by merit. The system of seniority which undoubtedly prevails has resulted in the putting of round pegs into square holes until we have practically everything filled with that which does not fit. There is in vogue a system under which, just as a man has obtained a thorough hold of the work of his Department, and is able to give to it some of his own individuality, his seniority entitles him to be appointed to a vacancy in another branch, of which he knows nothing. He goes from a branch of the Service for which he is most fitted to another branch of whose work he knows nothing. There he has again to learn his work from juniors; and so the system goes on. Under it, men are placed, not where they will give the best service, but in positions mapped out for them under the principle of promotion by seniority which is largely controlling our Service, and controlling it in the most injudicious and injurious manner. This has prevented progress throughout the Service. Under such a system we have men who are constantly learning their business instead of teaching others. The standard of the highest man is below what it ought to be, and as every man under him has to keep below it, the whole standard of the Service is reduced. I am pleased to be able to compliment the Government on having made a start in New South Wales, at all events, to take Federal works out of the hands of State officers, and to establish an independent Commonwealth Works Department in that State. That is a step in the right direction. Whether it should extend throughout the States, I am not in a position to say, but I certainly think it is a proper course to follow, seeing that the Public Works Department of New South Wales has proved, in a general sense, that it has no sympathy with the work that it has had to perform for the Federation. Federal works are with it a secondary consideration. If the State requires the services of the officers of the Department, Federal works must be set aside. 1729 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - We could hardly expect otherwise. 1729 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - But see what it means ' for the Commonwealth - see what delay it involves. Then, again, for want of time, proper thought cannot always be given by State officers to F'ederal works, and plans that are ill-digested and inappropriate are often thrown down to the Commonwealth Government as the best that can be done for them. 1729 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - That means that the works cost more money. 1729 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It also means the erection of buildings that are ill-adapted for the purposes for_ which they are required. In the days gone by, the last thing that was thought of in respect of plans for postal buildings, prepared by the Public Works Department of New South Wales, was their suitability for the services to be performed in them. Honorable members will find among our public offices buildings constructed without any regard for the needs of the people a decade ahead, when the population of the district will have increased, and the staff may have to be doubled. Then, again, in many cases little consideration has been given to hygienic requirements. I could point out in my own electorate ill-lighted, ill-ventilated, and even insanitary public buildings, no thought having been given to the necessity for providing for good ventilation, ample lighting, and economy in management. During the last twelve months I have examined plans from which most of these essentials to the welfare of the Public Service and the contentment of the people to be served were missing. These facts show that State officers in the past have not had a due comprehension of what is necessary in regard to our public buildings. The same state of affairs exists with regard to our public schools. Until two or three years ago our public school buildings throughout New South Wales were a disgrace to us. There was no attempt to observe modern conditions in any sense or form. There is some argument to support the appointment of a Public Works Committee, or a body of inquiry to guide the Government, or to indorse the suggestions that may be made from time to time. Such a body might prevent a great deal of unwise expenditure, and would probably serve as a check upon those who were not too careful as to the cost of the proposed works. 1730 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - It would also inform the House. 1730 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - It could afford information required by the Parliament and the public. The honorable member for Perth has referred to re- votes appearing on these Estimates. I am sorry that so much of the money voted last year was unexpended, but I would far rather see it re-voted than dropped off the Estimates altogether. That being so, I am not going to quarrel about these re-votes. 1730 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - It is a question, not of re-voting the money, but of expending money already voted. 1730 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The failure to spend money voted for various works was due to two or three conditions, for which there is a satisfactory explanation. The honorable member for Perth complained that a sum of only £5,000 had been placed on these Estimates for the erection of a new post-office at Perth.I am rather pleased to know that the Postmaster-General has decided to erect a new postal building in that city before a catastrophe occurs in the ramshackle building now being used for postal purposes. One of the strongest features of the attack made by the Postmaster-General upon the report of the Postal Commission was that it recommended that the new post-office at Perth should be built near the railway station. It was incredible, he said, that any body of men should make such a recommendation. It is pleasing to me, as a member of that Commission, to know that the same honorable member now indorses that recommendation, and that the new building is to be erected in the locality recommended by the Commission. Incidents like these make a man think. The Government propose to spend £5,000 oa that work this year. The land is not yet bought. 1730 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - Yes, it is. The whole matter has been settled. 1730 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - The purchase has not yet been completed ; or, at all events, the land has not been paid for. I know that that means that the plans have not yet been commenced. By the time the plans are prepared, and the Department is ready for action, three parts of the year will have passed, and £5,000 will be ample to cover what can be spent by the Government during the remainder of the financial year. I think, in the circumstances, that it is wise to provide only for an amount which the Government can anticipate as likely to be spent. With regard to public works generally, I believe that the Minister of Home Affairs will be well advised if he were to appoint some competent person to the position of perambulating Inspector of Works. We should have an officer whose duty it would be to go from one place to another where men are employed on Commonwealth public works, to supervise the works generally, and see that the men employed upon them are doing their duty to the Government by whom they are employed. It may be said that we have gangers employed on each work, but in connexion with great public undertakings it is a common practice to have one supervising inspector who has a general knowledge of the whole of the works undertaken, long experience, courage to do the right thing, and just enough not to do the wrong thing. Such an officer, visiting works at unstated times, may do useful service, not in slave driving, hut in keeping in their proper place men who might otherwise become too closely associated with a local ganger. If the Minister of Home Affairs were to appoint such an officer, he would, by that, one act, remove much of the cause for the complaints and reports about which we have heard so much during the past few weeks. 1731 L0I North Sydney 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Mr RYRIE . - In view of the fact that honorable members were travelling overnight, and are now a little tired, the Prime Minister might consent to report progress. 1731 F4N Wide Bay ALP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER . - I mav he allowed to make a short statement respecting the business of the House. The Leader of the Opposition will agree with me that it is advisable to get the Works Estimates out of the way before we begin a discussion upon the general Estimates. It is necessary to get these Estimates through as soon as practicable, and, in order to do so, we may have to sit a little later to-morrow. Friday is set apart for ether purposes, and I hope that, during to-morrow and Thursday, we shall be able to make certain of getting these Works Estimates through. It would be as well if there were a tacit understanding amongst honorable members to that effect. 1731 009MD Ballaarat 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN .- I shall be very happy to expedite the passing of these Estimates, but at present I am quite unacquainted with the particular questions which may arise in connexion with them. 1731 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - They may be dealt with in the debate on the Budget. 1731 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - The honorable gentleman can get the sting in during the Budget debate. 1731 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - There may be as much time taken in avoiding the sting as in using it. I think that, after all, the Prime Minister's proposal is, perhaps, the best at present. We should endeavour to finish these Estimates before we begin the consideration of the general Estimates. Any criticism that has been offered to-night has come as much from one side as from the other. 1731 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I have no objection to it at all ; but it would not be reasonable to carry the discussion of these Works Estimates into another week. 1731 009MD 0 0 DEAKIN, Alfred Mr DEAKIN - All I can say is that I am not aware- of any intention to delay their passing unduly. But I know that there is the intention to speak on a number of the proposed votes. I shall not unduly occupy time in discussing them. Progress reported. 1731 22:22:00 House adjourned at 10.22 p.m.