1913-11-05 5 1 0 REPS 2889 0 HouseofRepresentatives. 1913-11-05 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 2889 bill Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. 2889 Questions 2889 2889 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN -I ask the Treasurer whether it is a fact that within the past two or three weeks the Commonwealth Bank has advanced to a tramway trust here £25,000 at 4½ per cent. ? 2889 KFJ LP 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have no knowledge of the matter. If the honorable member will give notice of the question, I shall try to obtain the information for which he seeks. 2889 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - This is notice enough, surely. 2889 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr PATTEN - Can the Treasurer tell me what rate of interest is being charged to country borrowers by the Commonwealth Bank? 2889 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I cannot answer the question off-hand. If the honorable member will put it on the notice-paper, I shall ask the Governor of the Bank to supply the in Formation desired. 2889 Closure. 2889 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I ask the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to apply the closure during the discussion of the Postal Voting Restoration Bill? 2889 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The question is not in order. 2889 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Surely it is a perfectly reasonable question. 2889 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must not discuss myruling. 2889 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - It is a question seeking for information; why will you not allow the Prime Minister to answer it ? I give notice that to-morrow I shall move- That this House disagrees with the Speaker's ruling that the member for Capricornia may not ask the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to apply the closure during the discussion of the Postal Voting Restoration Bill. 2889 2889 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs if the Government has yet fixed a day for the meeting of the Federal Quarantine authorities and the State Health authorities with a view to the removal of the quarantine embargo on Sydney and its suburbs? 2889 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Arrangements have been made for the holding of a conference on Monday next. 2889 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I ask the Prime Minister if the Government has abandoned the idea of holding an inquiry into all the circumstances surrounding the small-pox outbreak in Sydney? 2889 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The conference to be held on Monday next will enable us to do that. 2889 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The meeting on Monday will be merely a conference. I refer to an investigation of the whole history of the epidemic. 2889 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall see first what the conference brings forth. 2889 2889 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr HOWE - Has the Prime Minister read the article which appears in today's Age dealing with the operations of the Beef Trust in Australia, and, if so, does he propose to take action which will enable the Administration to control the operations of the Trust? 2889 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall be glad if the honorable member will give notice of the question, but I say generally that the Government is watching as closely as possible the operations of the Beef Combine, or whatever it may be, and will use every effort to prevent any Trust from doing damage to the people of Australia. 2889 2889 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, since the House rose on Friday morning last, you have had an opportunity toreadthe Hansard record of your decision regarding the third reading of the Loan Bill, and if so, whether you are still of the opinion that the third reading of the Bill was carried by this House? 2890 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - There was never any doubt about the matter. The third reading was carried, as I stated at the time, and the Hansard record confirms my statement. The question cannot be raised now. 2890 2890 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - Is the Minister representing the Minister of Defence aware that fifteen shipwrights have been discharged at Cockatoo Island because no work is being done, although there is a great deal of work to be done there? Will the honorable gentleman inquire why these men have been put off ? 2890 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I am not aware of the facts, but I shall have inquiry made, and inform the honorable member of the result in due course. 2890 2890 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Has the Minister of External Affairs read the press statements to the effect that the Victorian Government proposes to extend its operations in regard to the providing of refrigerating accommodation for primary producers, and is the honorable gentleman disposed to make inquiries from the authorities of this and other States before handing over to a private company all matters connected with refrigeration in the Northern Territory? 2890 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - It is not proposed to hand over, to a private company, all matters in connexion with refrigeration in the Northern Territory. There is already refrigerating accommodation there. I think that the honorable member, in asking the question, had in his mind the freezing works the establishment of which was contemplated by the last Government. As I said last week, I have been considering the possibility of having such works established by private enterprise. On the facts before me, I do not think that we would be justified in carrying out the works at the public expense, at all events at the present time. 2890 2890 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - In regard to the offer made by the Federal Government of £500 to pay the expenses of a visit to Australia of an expert in cotton-growing, I should like to know whether the Prime Minister has yet received any information as to any future contemplated action, seeing that the matter had to be considered last month at a meeting of the British Cotton-growers' Association ? 2890 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am quite without information on the matter, so far as I recollect. 2890 2890 K5D ALP 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY -Has the Minister of External Affairs received any communication from the States as to how many are prepared to join in the Panama Exposition ? The Commissioners are leaving us in a day or two, and it would be well if they could be given an answer before they go. 2890 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I have received no communications recently. The last intimation we had was from Victoria to the effect that if the other States were agreeable, that State would join. South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania were, I think, inclined to send exhibits, but they would not share in the financial responsibility. New South Wales was, I think, rather inclined to join, but I have not heard further to that effect. I believe that the visit of our American cousins has had the result that what was a possibility has become a probability, namely, that there will be concert between the States and the Commonwealth. 2890 2890 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to the fact that the Prime Minister of England has been deprived of his vote on account of living in his wife's house, and, if so, will the honorable gentleman forward our Electoral Act as a guidance to England? 2890 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - That is so thorny a subject that I would much prefer to keep out of it. 2890 2890 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Has any definite information been received by the Government as to whether the Defence Conference will be held next year, and, if so, will the Prime Minister kindly afford the House an idea as to the date? 2890 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am quite unable to give the House any information on the subject. 2891 2891 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - Has the attention of the Minister representing the Minister of Defence been drawn to a circular issued by Mr. J. W. Barrett, the Commonwealth Organizer of the Australian Freedom League ? There are three cases cited in that circular, on which I think the Honorary Minister ought to get a report, in order to see whether the statements made are founded on fact or otherwise. The cases are those of Yeo, Ettridge, and two brothers named Size. I shall hand the circular to the Honorary Minister, so that he may make inquiries. 2891 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I shall have inquiries made as to the accuracy of the statements in the circular. 2891 2891 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - This Parliament has, on past occasions, considered and voted on questions of great importance to the Empire; and I should like to know whether the Prime Minister will set aside a day before the close of the session when we may discuss the position in the Old Land, where there seems to be one law for -the rich and another for the poor. Larkin, the strike leader, has been sent to gaol for three months, while Sir Edward Carson, who has spoken just as freely, is at liberty? 2891 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I think we have enough to do to mind our own business. 2891 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - We have to suffer for it, at any rate ! 2891 Loan Bill, Third Reading. 2891 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - Mr. Speaker, I -should like to ask you a question in view of what took place last week, as shown in the following report in Hansard. 2891 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is not in order in quoting from a Ilansard report of the debate last week. 2891 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - This is a question affecting you, sir, and the business of the House. 2891 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The question should have been raised at the time, and it cannot be raised now. 2891 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - Then I rise to a question of privilege, and shall conclude with a motion. It would not have taken a moment more to ask the question, but, of course, if there is a desire to evade the question, that is another thing. The question concerns the passing of a certain Bill in this Chamber ; and I think it is just as well we should know exactly where we are in relation to it. Last week a Bill was introduced and passed. 2891 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member is now distinctly going behind my ruling. He cannot raise a question of privilege on a matter already passed and dealt with -in the House. The matter is not one that has suddenly arisen, and the honorable member is not in order in raising a question of privilege under the circumstances. 2891 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I only wish to say that you distinctly said the third reading was not carried. 2891 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member knows there is a proper course to pursue, and that no question of privilege can arise at this juncture. 2891 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - All right, we shall see. 2891 2891 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - Has the Minister of External Affairs any information in regard to the 2,000 lost sheep ? 2891 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - So far as I remember, the sheep started from Avon Downs Station, when purchased, on the 1st August, and, as they are travelling through the intervening country, I cannot communicate with them by telegram. 2891 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Are they all dead? 2891 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I hope that, like a good many sheep supposed to be lost, they will prove to be not beyond redemption, and will soon turn up at Bitter Springs, to which point they are consigned. 2891 2891 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Will the Government set a day apart for the further consideration of my motion in favour of placing the Postal Department under a board of management so that it may be fully discussed, and a decision arrived at? 2891 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I intended to say, last Friday, had I not been prevented by the intervention of the honorable member for Capricornia with a motion, that we hoped to provide the same facilities for the disposal of private business later on in the session as has been the case hitherto.. 2892 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - I object to the reflection that the Prime Minister has cast upon me. The honorable gentleman had ample opportunity to make a statement, had he desired to do so, seeing that my motion was not agreed to. 2892 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 2892 2892 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - A statement has appeared in the press that the Director of Fisheries has said that if the public did not take up the question of providing fish the Government would have to take the matter in hand. I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether the Government are prepared to enter, without delay, into the fish business? 2892 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - My attention was drawn to the paragraph to which the honorable member refers, but I am not aware that the Director made any such statement. If he did, he certainly did not do so with the sanction or authority of the Minister. 2892 2892 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I ask the Postmaster-General, without notice, whether he can inform the House when he will introduce the Bill providing for the change of management of the postal service ? 2892 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - It all depends upon how business progresses in the House. 2892 2892 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether he can say if the whole of the Excise lost during the peculiar position created by the repeal of the Excise Act has been paid into the Treasury? 2892 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Not yet. The matter is receiving the attention of the Department. 2892 2892 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - If he will take into consideration the necessity of inaugurating a week-end parcel post, whereby producers could send goods to their customers at a minimum charge for parcels of 3d. up to 2 lbs. weight, providing such parcels are lodged at the various post-offices in time for the first parcel delivery on Saturday mornings? 2892 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE -Arrangements are now being made to give a trial of a service in connexion with the parcel post system by which agricultural produce will be handled within certain areas, and consideration will be given to the honorable member's suggestion. 2892 2892 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr PIGOTT asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Whether he will inform the House, in connexion with the Commonwealth Bank - Out of the total of£2,700,000 in the Savings Bank Department, what sums have been deposited in the city suburban branches, and what in the country branches? Out of the total advances of£458,000, how much has been to country borrowers ? 2892 KFJ LP 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I should be glad if the honorable member could defer this question for a few days. I have written to the Governor of the Bank asking for the information. 2892 2892 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS asked the Honorary Minister, upon notice - On what data is based the following statement made by the Engineer-in-Chief of Commonwealth Railways in his report : - " While jarrah sleepers are known to have a life of only about fourteen years, karri powellised will last double this time." 2892 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The answer to the honorable- member's question is as follows: - The Engineer-in-Chief of Commonwealth Railways reports that the statement in his report was - With regard to the relative life and durability of the two kinds, it is confidently anticipated that while jarrah sleepers are known to have an average life of only about fourteen years, karri, powellised, will last double this time, and that the information on which he based the statement was obtained by correspondence and verbal communications with the Western Australian authorities. 2892 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers: - Audit Act - Treasury Regulation Amended (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 275. High Court Procedure Act and Judiciary Act - Rule of Court - Amendment of "Practitioners Admission Rules " - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 254. Land Tax Assessment Act - Regulation Amended (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 276. Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations Amended, &c. (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1913, Nos. 219, 220, 224, 225,242, 247,255, 258. Regulations Amended, &c. - Statutory Rules 1913, Nos. 218, 221, 223, 229, 230. Public Service Act - Appointment of C. T. Young, as Draughtsman, Professional Division, Class E, Lands and Surveys Branch, Canberra, Department of Home Affairs. Appointment of C. S. Vautin, as Draughtsman, Professional Division, Class E, Lands and Surveys Branch, Department of Home Affairs. Railways - Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway - Western Australia Section - Report by Engineer-in-Chief for Commonwealth Railways on the subject of Water Supply. 2893 bill 2893 2893 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - I rise to a point of order, and I direct attention to standing order 274, which reads - No member shall digress from the subject-matter of any question under discussion, nor anticipate the discussion of any other subject which appears on the notice-paper. I draw special attention to the words" anticipate the discussion of any other subject which appears on the notice-paper." You will notice, sir, that the first Order of the Day is the Postal Voting Restoration Bill, and that Order of the Day No. 6 is the Electoral Bill of 1913. On looking at Part 10 of the Electoral Bill of 1913, I find several clauses relating to voting by post. For instance - 109. An elector who - has reason to believe that he will not, at any time during the hours of polling on polling day, be within 5 miles of any polling place for the division for which he is enrolled; or being a woman, will, on account of ill-health, be unable to attend the polling place on polling day to vote; or will be prevented by. serious illness or infirmity from attending the polling place on polling-day to vote, may make application for a postal vote certificate and ballot-paper. The application may be in the prescribed form, and must be signed by the elector in his own handwriting in the presence of an authorized witness, and must be made and sent, after the issue of the writ for the election, and before the polling day for the election, to the returning officer for the division for which the applicant elector is enrolled. In the case of an application under paragraph (a), (he applicant must state in the application his reason for his belief. An elector shall not make, and a person shall not induce an elector to make, any false statement in an application for a postal vote certificate and postal ballot-paper. Penalty : Fifty pounds, or one month's imprisonment. Then follows a clause dealing with authorized witnesses. I shall not weary honorable members by reading it. We have other clauses dealing with the duty of authorised witnesses, the issue of certificates and ballot-papers in connexion with the postal vote, the inspection of applications for the postal vote, the numbering of applications and certificates dealing with the postal vote, the initialing of postal ballot-papers, the duty of the Returning Officer to notify the issue of postal vote certificates and postal ballot-papers, and directions for postal voting, these occupying fully a page. Another page deals with the duty of an authorized witness, and with the duty of persons present when an elector votes by post, also with the preliminary scrutiny of postal ballot-papers. We have on still another page clauses dealing with the counting of postal ballot-papers, with the " review of decision," and with mistakes that may be made in connexion with the postal ballot-papers. You know very well, sir, that it is the practice of this House to prevent any anticipatory discussion on a Bill or motion. We need not refer to the practice of the House of Commons, because we have both practice and traditions of our own. We have had experience in matters of this kind extending over twelve years. The other day you ruled out a motion having reference to the Tasmania grant on the ground that there was a motion already on the notice-paper dealing with that matter. I would not like it to happen that we should forget our practice. Owing to the excitement which has permeated the political atmosphere for the past week - I do not think that you will be at all disturbed - but we may be, because we are only human, and it is possible that there may be a little mental disturbance or storm preventing us from arriving at a decision as cool as that at which we might arrive in other circumstances. But I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will see your way clear to carry out the practice of this House, which I venture to submit is that an honorable member should not be allowed to anticipate a discussion on business that is on the paper. The Bill which the honorable gentleman proposes to introduce covers the whole of the ground which I have just set out and which is embodied in the Order of the Day No. 6 - the Electoral Bill of 1913. The mere fact that any particular party has a majority does not justify this riding rough-shod over the practice of Parliament. The absence of a member of the Opposition is not a reason why we should abandon the political - I shall not say " game," because I do not like the word - but political procedure. I submit that it is due to you that the Prime Minister, who has charge of the Postal Voting Restoration Bill- 2894 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member may not go into that matter. He must discuss the point of order. 2894 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - I submit that the Prime Minister is not in order. If the Electoral Bill were out of the way, the Prime Minister would be in order in introducing this measure, and to put it in order he should move that Order of the Day No. 6 be discharged from the business-paper. He could move its restoration after the Postal Voting Restoration Bill had been dealt with. I would point out to you the disadvantage that might follow the adoption of the course now proposed by the Government. It is possible that some honorable members might have been away from the Chamber for a week- 2894 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - That has nothing to do with the point of order. 2894 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - The order of business is set forth in the notice-paper, and it is possible for an honorable member, looking at the business-paper for a week ago, to have concluded that since there was no reference to the Postal Voting Restoration Bill, the question of postal voting would be discussed on the Electoral Bill. An honorable member might very well say, " I shall attend a week hence in my place in Parliament, because the Electoral Bill, which provides for voting by post, will not be further discussed until then." I submit that this Bill is not, and cannot be, in order until the Electoral Bill dealing with the question of the postal vote has been disposed of, and that the Prime Minister cannot properly proceed further with it. 2894 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Mr. Speaker- 2894 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I am quite prepared to give my ruling. As a matter of fact, I have already decided this point of order. I did not care to interrupt the honorable member, but I would point out to him now that this question was raised last week by, I think, the Leader of the Opposition, and I then decided that it was competent for two Bills relating to the one matter to be on the business-paper at the same time. That ruling is supported by May, 11th edition, page 468, where we have the statement - and this is what I had in mind in giving my decision - that - There is no rule or custom which restrains the introduction of . two or more Bills relating to the same subject, and containing similar provisions. That makes the position quite clear, and there can be no question that the matter is perfectly in order. 2894 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - What about our own Standing Orders? 2894 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - May I supplement what I have said by calling attention to the terms of one of our own Standing Orders, which provides - No member shall digress from the subject-matter of any question under discussion, nor anticipate the discussion of any other subject which appears on the notice-paper. This simply deals with a matter which is before the House. 2894 F4S Parramatta LP Prime Minister and Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK .- I think it well to state frankly at the outset that this shorter Bill is being submitted because of the late stage of the session at which we have arrived, and because the prospect of passing the larger measure within reasonable time this session seems to be somewhat remote. 2894 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - The honorable member is afraid to go on with the Electoral Bill. 2894 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Is the honorable member sure he has not received orders from his bosses outside? 2894 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Yes; from the Argus. 2894 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order. I hope that the proceedings of the House will be conducted in an orderly way, and that an honorable member, no matter on what side he may sit, will be permitted to speak without unseemly interruption. I do not propose to allow interruptions to go to the length to which they have gone, and I refrained from taking extreme measures in the hope that the better sense of honorable members would soon prevail. I intimate to the House now, that honorable members must be heard in silence, or as nearly as possible in silence. Reasonable interruptions now and again will not be objected to, but anything in the nature of disorder or continuous or repeated interruptions will not be permitted. 2894 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If opportunity offers later we shall be glad to attempt the larger measure of electoral reform., Meantime, we feel that we are pledged to make an effort, and a serious effort, to put this proposal before both Houses of the Parliament. If there be one thing more than another to which this Government pledged itself at the last election, it was the restoration of postal voting, and it is in accordance with that pledge, reiterated from every platform in the country, that this effort is now being made. I do not intend to debate this matter to-day. If there be one question that is already threadbare, it is that of the postal vote. There was not one speech made in this House during the lengthy debate on the larger measure in which the question was not discussed and re-discussed. I do not think any member in the House can throw any new light upon the subject or break any new ground. 2895 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - I have not spoken yet! 2895 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Light comes from many quarters, and the honorable member may have some new thought to contribute to the question. The Government hope to get the measure through the House, and upon the statute-book if possible. I move - That the Bill be now read a second time. 2895 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- I presume the Prime Minister has no objection to the adjournment of the debate. 2895 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I do object. We propose to go on. What reason can there be for postponing it? 2895 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The extraordinary way in which the motion has been moved. I move - That the debate be now adjourned. Question - That the debate be now adjourned - put. The House divided. 36 37 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 2895 F4S Parramatta LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK .- I reply to that challenge by moving - That the question be now put. Question - That the question be now put - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the Bill be now read a second time - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. 2896 Clause 1 - This Act may be cited as the Postal Voting Restoration Act1913. 2896 KHE Capricornia 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS .- I think we might get a more appropriate title for the Bill if we had a little time to consider it. There are two main objections, of course, to the postal voting principle, and the first and most important is the possibility of doing away with the secrecy of the ballot. 2896 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member will notice that the clause deals with the short title of the Bill. 2896 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I should like the Bill to have a proper name, but I had not had time to compose one. However, the Attorney-General may consent to recommit the clause. 2896 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Shall I be in order in moving that the title of the Bill be altered from the " Postal Voting Restoration Act 1913" to the " Commonwealth Electoral Act Amendment Act 1913 "? 2896 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I do not see anything out of order in such an amendment. 2896 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I understand that the honorable member for Maribyrnong is asking a question on a point of order, and I submit that what he seeks cannot be done. What can be done is that, if an amendment is carried in some portion of the Bill which involves a change in the title, then the title may be subsequently amended. 2896 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - In an ordinary sense, the Attorney-General is correct in saying that all we can do is, in the event of amendments being made in the clauses, to change the title in order to bring it into consonance with the amendments made. But we must not merely take what is on the face of the Bill as covering the scope of the Bill, because it goes much further. The Bill provides that certain postal votes are to be restored ; but it goes further, and gives power to the Government to make certain regulations, and contains a number of clauses which are covered under the principal Act. I maintain that the honorable member for Maribyrnong is quite in order, if he so desires, in discussing all those provisions in the principal Act which this particular clause seeks to re-enact. 2896 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Maribyrnong desires to propose an amendment in the short title of the Bill; and, so long as that amendment is in harmony with the general purport of the Bill, I cannot see that it is out of order. In my opinion, the amendment would be quite in harmony with the purport of the Bill, and I rule it in order. 2896 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I move - That the words " Postal Voting Restoration " be left out, with a view to. insert in lieu thereof the words " Electoral Amendment." I complain, as of course one must, that we; in a free Parliament, are denied free discussion on a very important amendment of the Electoral Act. 2896 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - Is the honorable member in order when he says that we are in a free' Parliament, and are denied free discussion ? 2897 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - -The remark is not in order; but I was waiting for the hon7orable member to lead up to the subject-matter of his amendment. 2897 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I desire to express, as dispassionately as possible, my feeling in regard to this proposal. A measure of this kind requires the very closest attention, because on our Electoral Act depends whether we obtain a true reflex of the opinions of the people. If the community are allowed every possible facility to exercise the franchise without let or hindrance from others who may or may not possess influence over them, the more likely we shall be to have a Parliament in consonance with the feelings and aspirations of the people. 2897 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member's remarks are wide of the question. 2897 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I am giving my reasons for my amendment, which will have the effect of widening the scope of the Bill. 2897 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is just where the honorable member makes a mistake; the amendment does not widen the scope of the Bill by one iota. That might be done by amending the title of the Bill, but we are -not now dealing with the title. 2897 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I admit that we shall have to deal with the full title later on. 2897 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - What the honorable member is moving is 'merely what he thinks would be a better short description of the real title. 2897 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Have honorable members ever known the short title to be discussed in this way before? 2897 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I am afraid that honorable members do not exactly grasp the purport of my amendment; and I hope that the Government will afford opportunity for discussing the question as fully as possible. If there is anything of importance to the country it is the franchise, and facilities for exercising the franchise. 2897 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That has nothing to do with the short title. 2897 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - It is difficult; but I have endeavoured to keep as closely as I could to the clause. 2897 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Attorney-General 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - The object which I have no doubt the honorable member for Maribyrnong desired to attain, namely, the widening of the scope for amendments in the measure, will not be attained by the proposal before us. The effect of the amendment is not to alter the title at all, but merely to alter the short title of the Bill, which is a short description in the body of the Bill of what the real title is. The real title remains unaltered; and, therefore, nothing is gained by the honorable member, either in the way of widening the discussion or the power of amendment. 2897 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - No objection can lie to the proposal of the honorable member for Maribyrnong. An objection to an alteration of the title might lie in the nature of so restricting debate as to prevent giving effect to the order of leave itself. The order of leave is to restore the provisions of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902-9 with respect to voting by post. Therefore, this is an amendment of the Electoral Act and is -an Electoral Act Amendment Bill. While the amendment does not seem relatively important, I see no reason why it should not be agreed to, and I see no practical disadvantage that will follow, so far as debate is concerned, but I submit that where discussion is limited there should be very good reasons why an amendment of this sort should not be allowed. The title is inserted for a special purpose, which is quite apart from the matter - it is merely a placard - and the honorable member for Maribyrnong very properly takes exception to that, a,nd seeks to have the title of the Bill changed to "an amendment of the electoral law." This really is a mere amendment Bill, like dozens of measures which have been introduced relative to the electoral law, and they have all been introduced under the generic term " to amend the electoral law." This is the first time in our history on which an attempt has been made to introduce a similar Bill other than under that designation. The reason for the change in the title is wholly unconnected with the thing itself, but has a party complexion that is so obvious that nothing is necessary to emphasize it. The amendment may be agreed to, and then we may discuss this measure for what it really is - an amendment of the electoral law. 2897 KHE Capricornia 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS .- I always have much pleasure in accepting the advice of the Attorney-General when I think it ought to be followed, but, in the present circumstances, I do not think the honorable gentleman is assisting the Committee. From his long experience at the Bar, and in a State House, he should be able to assist us, but, so far, he has not helped us much. Now he says ' Pass this clause as it is, and when you come to the title you can alter it." But we can only do so by a certain process. The Standing Orders say that a decision in Committee cannot be reversed in the same Committee. 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That matter has not arisen. I have ruled that the amendment is in order. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I am surprised at the Attorney-General trying to side-track the Committee. He should be satisfied with getting the second reading through so expeditiously, without trying to get this clause through by a subterfuge. 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The question is the short title of the Bill. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - If we pass this clause the honorable member for Maribyrnong has no possible chance of getting his amendment agreed to unless the Bill is recommitted. The very remarks of the Attorney- General show how necessary it is to have full and free discussion, and I hope I may be permitted to make a few remarks about the title with which it is proposed to christen this Bill. I object to the title suggested by the honorable member for Maribyrnong. The honorable member must be aware that there is already a Bill on the notice-paper that will need the title of " Electoral Act of 1913." I would call this " a Bill to permit the manipulation of postal ballot-papers." 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member must not be frivolous. I cannot entertain any such suggestion, and the honorable member is quite out of order in making it. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I am sorry if you think that I have offended against the ordinary rules of debate by describing this as " a Bill to permit the manipulation of postal ballot-papers." 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - Do you rule that "manipulation" is not parliamentary? 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Undoubtedly; in the circumstances it is not parliamentary. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - There may be honest manipulation and dishonest manipulation. Standing by itself, the word is as innocent as a babe - as innocent as the Attorney-General looks, but is not. 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I often contemplate the face of the honorable gentleman when it is in repose, as it mostly is. 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - The Bill should be given a proper name. I do not wish to come into conflict with the Chair. I have great sympathy for the Chair, because, no doubt, it must be very trying- 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The question is the short title of the Bill. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I was coming to that. We should give the Bill a proper name, and I shall give some reasons why we should give it a name which is not a mere colourless thing such as that suggested by the honorable member for Maribyrnong, which does not convey the idea at all. What we should do with this measure is to indicate to the general public, as far as its name will permit us to do so, what is the political game of the Attorney-General. 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must not refer to anybody's " political game." 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - I withdraw the words "political game," and I shall substitute something else. The Bill should carry on its face- 2898 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Its face value. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - That is a very good expression. The Bill should on its face describe what it means to the Attorney-General and his party, and I submit we can show that best by giving it its proper name. I give notice of a further amendment, " That the Bill be called ' a Bill to enable the Attorney- General and his colleagues of the Liberal Association to manipulate postal ballot-papers.' " 2898 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member must know that he is deliberately breaking the Standing Orders when he repeats an offence for which he has already been called to order. 2898 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - If that is your view, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the remark. Amendment negatived. 2898 JLY Bourke 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY .- I move - That after the word " Restoration " the words " Sick and Invalid " be inserted. I have no desire to occupy the time of the Committee, save to say that I am quite prepared to vote for a Bill to provide for postal voting for the sick and the invalid, but that I absolutely object to people who are quite capable of walking to a polling place being allowed to vote by post. If my amendment be carried, the Bill will be so restricted as to provide for voting by post only for the sick and the invalid, and that is all the Government say they desire. 2899 KEX Brisbane 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON . - I have been waiting to hear whether the Attorney-General is prepared to accept the amendment. 2899 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - No. 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Then what becomes of the protestations of the Government that they merely desire to restore voting by post for the benefit of the sick and the invalid? 2899 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Those provisions are included in the Bill. 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - The Government have either been in earnest in their statement that they desire voting by post to be retained for the benefit of the sick and the invalid, or they have been throwing dust in the eyes of the people. I shall support the amendment, although I am very strongly opposed to voting by post in ordinary circumstances. I do not think that such a system of postal voting has been promulgated as will give us a guarantee of freedom from corruption, but I am prepared to go a long way for the sake of the sick and the invalid. 2899 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - What guarantee does the honorable member want? 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - That this Bill will be what it pretends to be. The Government say that it is designed to enable the sick and the invalid to vote. 2899 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - They do not; they say it is a Bill to restore postal voting. 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - From a thousand platforms it has been declared over and over again that we have robbed sick people of the power to record their votes. 2899 JOY 0 0 BENNETT, James Mr Bennett - The postal voting system is for the benefit of country people everywhere. 2899 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Why should they have any privilege over city residents? 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - The Labour party have been abused, in both their public and private capacities, as being opposed to the sick having power to vote. The Government have professed a particular care for the sick and the invalid, and have wept crocodile tears from every platform over the poor sick, who cannot go to the polls. They now appear to be ashamed of their own professions. I strongly support the suggestion made by the honorable member for Capricornia, and, if I were in order, I would suggest that this Bill seeks to encourage impure elections, and that it will lead to the corruption of the voting system. 2899 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Even when considering the short title to the Bill we cannot shut our eyes to the object at which it aims, and I wonder how far the Government are prepared to go in the matter of providing postal voting facilities for the sick and the invalid. I submit that there are good reasons - reasons advanced by the Government themselves, and reiterated a thousand times by the Prime Minister himself - for making this Bill what it professes to be - a Bill to provide for voting by post on the part of only the sick and the invalid. What right has any other section of the community to special facilities for voting away from the polling booth? 2899 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Will the honorable member vote for the Bill if this amendment be carried ? 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - Certainly not. Does the Prime Minister think that I am such a fool that, because I secure one amendment, I am going to swallow every other provision of the Bill ? A suggestion of that kind, applied to any other Bill, would be repudiated by the honorable gentleman. 2899 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - The carrying of this amendment would not alter the principles of the Bill. 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - No. I am prepared to consider, freely and fully, any suggestion to give the sick and the invalid power to vote; but I am utterly opposed to the provision of facilities for those who are not sick or invalided to record their votes away from the polling booth. 2899 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is now going beyond the subject-matter of the clause. 2899 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - I am anxious that this Bill shall be what it pretends to be. In this Parliament, we set a standard, perhaps, for the people of the world. We have provided that goods manufactured in this country shall be true to name. We have officers in our Customs Houses, and all over the. country, whose duty it is, to try to guarantee to the public that the goods they buy will be true to the trade description or label on them. 2900 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Is not this Bill true to its title? 2900 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - No. It is proposed to send out, so to speak, a piece of goods bearing a wrong label, a misleading title, or an untrue description. This is not a Bill to provide postal voting facilities for only the sick and the invalid; but if the Prime Minister will give me his assurance now that it will be made to apply only to that section of the community, he will remove much of my objection to it. 2900 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The honorable member is in favour, not of this Bill, but of some other Bill? 2900 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - I am in favour of some other Bill, believing that the electoral law needs to be amended. I ask that we shall be honest, truthful, and fair about this matter. The honorable member for Bourke proposes to give to the Bill a designation that will meet the views of every honorable member. There is a certain proportion of the people of the Commonwealth - too large a proportion, in my opinion - who, by reason of sickness or invalidity, are unable to go to the polls and record their votes; and, for their sakes, we ought to make some extra and very special provision. This Bill, however, does not propose to do that, and it is because I believe that it should do so that I support the amendment. 2900 F4S Parramatta LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I should like to know exactly where my honorable friends opposite stand in this matter. If there is a bond fide and fairly unanimous effort on their side to remodel the Bill, I should like to know to what extent it exists. 2900 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Then, why did the honorable member "gag" us? If he had not done so, we should have told him. 2900 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - This is the stage at which to discuss the details of the Bill. My honorable friend who has just resumed his seat, as well as the mover of the amendment, say that they wish to limit voting by post to the sick and the infirm. I understood that the sick and infirm are the very people whom they alleged - the ex- Attorney-General, perhaps, more than any other - are subject to cajolery and bribery; that they are the people who, according to honorable members opposite, are bought with money. 2900 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns - Who ever said that? 2900 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The exAttorneyGeneral. It is these very people - the sick and the infirm - who are unable to vote, who, we are told, are subject to cajolery., I am repeating the words used by the honorable member for West Sydney. 2900 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Where are they? 2900 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - They are the people who are supposed to be subject to the influence of money. The main argument of those who are supporting this amendment has been that the sick in various institutions, who are unable to help themselves - the sick and infirm in every way - are subject to sinister influences. 2900 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I think that the Prime Minister is now going beyond the subject-matter of theclause. 2900 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Very well, sir, I shall say no more. 2900 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I hope, Mr. Chairman, that since some time elapsed before you ruled that the Prime Minister was out of order, I may be allowed to say a word or two in answer to what he has said in reference to myself. The honorable gentleman has thought fit to make a statement in regard to myself which is quite inaccurate and irrelevant, and which ought not to have been allowed. I take this opportunity of stating that what he said in regard to me is not warranted by the facts. Leaving the honorable gentleman alone, because to fight with him on equal terms is impossible, since, directly any one is able to say anything to which he takes exception, he will move that the question be now put, I wish to say, on behalf of myself and every one on this side, that he shall not put us in the position in which he desires, and which he has no right to do. He shall not hold us up to the country as being opposed to voting by post on the part of the sick and the invalid. We are not, and never have been. 2900 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Then why did the late Government repeal the postal voting provisions of the Electoral Act? 2900 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - We are not, and never have been, opposed to postal voting on the part of the sick and the invalid, but we are opposed to the abuse of the principle. It is to that point to which we have directed, and must direct, our attention; and it is because of this measure being so framed as to prevent any legitimate amendment of the iron-clad provisions of the law of 1909 that we are opposed to it. 2901 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have allowed the honorable member, I think, reasonable latitude. 2901 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Very well, sir, I shall say no more about that matter. I have made our position clear. The amendment proposes to limit the scope of the Bill so that it will provide for postal voting for the sick and the invalid, and I believe that will meet every legitimate requirement in this connexion. If it be agreed to, consequential amendments must be made in the Bill. I shall be glad to learn upon what ground the amendment is opposed by the Government. This is a Bill which proposes to amend the existing law in this particular alone. It leaves the law in respect to absent voting as it is. Under the law of 1909, voting by post extended to persons other than those who were sick. Under sub-section a, section 109 - Any elector who has reason to believe that he will not, during the hours of polling on polling day, be within 5 miles of the polling place for the division in which he is enrolled- That was a pertinent and useful subsection when, and only when, there was 110 provisions such as now exist for recording absent votes. I ask the Attorney-General to agree to the proposal, in order that the measure may be brought into harmony with the law, as it will appear when it was amended. 2901 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Better move it on the next clause, where we can discuss it. We cannot discuss it on the short title. 2901 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Attorney-General took exception to the amendment of the short title when it extended the scope of the Bill, and takes exception to it now when it restricts the scope of the Bill. He wants the short title as a placard. What possible exception can he take to the proposal ? If he takes exception to it, he takes exception to a proposal that it shall extend only to the invalid and sick, when, as a matter of fact, under the existing law, and as the law will be if this measure is incorporated in the present law, an absent voter will be able to vote at any booth throughout the Commonwealth. What additional facilities does he want under sub-section al I hope that the honorable member will see that, restricted as we are by the scope of this measure, such an amendment is legitimate and proper. If he intends that the postal vote should extend to persons other than the sick and invalid, let him say so, so that we and the country will know exactly what the Government propose; but we were certainly under the impression that the gravamen of the charge against this party was that they had taken from the sick women, the mothers of this country, opportunities for voting. That is not true. We are perfectly willing that they should vote ; but we are not willing that the measure should be used as a cover for other things. 2901 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Attorney-General 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - I have never known the short title of a Bill to be debated before. Its purpose is merely to state concisely what the real title of the Bill is. 2901 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Would not the amendment of the short title be a direction to amend the full title accordingly when we come to it? 2901 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The short title cannot be taken as any direction. The proper place, if any, for substantive amendments, is clause 2. It will be quite open, on that clause, for honorable members to move any amendment of any section contained in the voting by post provisions in the Electoral Acts of 1902 to 1909. If honorable members can formulate a scheme for enabling, not merely infirm and sick people, but old people, and people who are far removed from any polling booth to vote - and now is the time to do it - it shall have full consideration by the Government. I invite them to do it; but they cannot do it on this clause. 2901 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - Will the Government allow discussion? 2901 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We shall allow discussion on any bond fide attempt to bring forward a better scheme, or improvement in the existing scheme of voting by post. We shall not deprive the Committee of a fair opportunity of discussion. 2901 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Who is to be the judge of a fair opportunity? 2901 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We shall be the judge, but if honorable members bring forward something entirely inconsistent with the general voting by post scheme, we shall not be prepared to give undue time for discussing such proposals. I want ' to test the bona fides of members like the honorable member for Brisbane. If they really desire to help us, and help [these people to get an opportunity to exercise the franchise, we shall consider their proposals, and they shall have the fullest opportunity of putting them forward. 2902 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The short title is intended only for noting purposes. There seems to be an idea amongst certain honorable members that by altering the short title they can, in some way, alter the measure. Such is not the case. 2902 KZG Adelaide ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS .- Your remarks, sir, almost make me ask, " What is in a name?" In this case there happens to be plenty in a name, because the short title was carefully thought out by the Government after their defeat last week. They have evidently submitted this scheme in the belief that they will thereby impress the public that they are giving effect to their platform pledges, and restoring to some persons the vote that they allege was taken away from them. The measure will be cited by the short title, and honorable members are, therefore, justified in taking exception to it. At the same time, we ask that the bona -fides of the Government side of the House may be more clearly shown to the public. 2902 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Why not test the question on the next clause, where we can deal with it? 2902 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - That is a new suggestion. A very much better method would have been to allow members to express in general terms their opinions on the second reading. We should then have been able to arrive at a satisfactory, agreement as to what ought to be in the Bill, but the attitude of the Government has prevented that discussion, which is essential upon a matter of such importance. The blood be therefore on their own heads. They must take the consequences. The Bill is exceptionally complicated, although only one specific clause is brought in, in order, apparently, to prevent discussion and criticism and successful amendment as far as possible, even in the direction in which the Government allege that they are prepared to consider amendments. Any member who attempts to amend this clause will find himself in difficulties at once. Amendments will have to be framed with exceptional care to fit in with the various Acts. If there is any reality in the suggestion of the Attorney-General that we should suggest amendments- 2902 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - You have had the Bill since Friday. 2902 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - That was when the Ministry changed their mind. We have had it since that moment, and have been " gagged " in the consideration of it. If there is an atom of genuineness in the honorable gentleman's suggestion that he will consider amendments of this clause, the discussion ought to be adjourned forthwith, to enable honorable members to frame them. The; Attorney-General said he had never heard the short title of a Bill discussed, but the whole of these proceedings are different from what generally characterize Parliaments, and therefore some little latitude is essential. There are ten lawyers on the other side of the Committee, but if they went into the Ministerial room they could not in two hours return with an amendment of this clause. If the Ministry are genuine in their assertion that they will consider amendments to allow sick and invalid persons to vote, they will accept the amendment now suggested. The duty will then fall upon them of" framing the measure in accordance with the short title. It would take the Law Department a couple of days to do it, but they cannot expect honorable members on this side to do it while discussion is proceeding. If they are not genuine they will oppose the amendment, and we shall understand more clearly where weare. Mr. ANSTEY (Bourke) [5.5J.- The Attorney-General said he was quite prepared to consider amendments. I want to restrict voting by post to the sick and invalid. The Bill proposes not merely to give the vote to persons who are sick and invalid, but to practically every man and woman throughout Australia, if they so desire, to exercise the right of voting by post. It is quite possible to establish safeguards in regard to the voting of persons who are sick, but not in regard to those who may declare that on election day they will be 5 miles away from a polling place. The fact that you have accepted the amendment, Mr. Chairman, shows that it is competent to move it. The' Attorney-General objects to it as an unusual amendment. 2902 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member will have an- opportunity to do what he wants by moving an amendment on a later clause. 2903 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - It seems to me that I shall not. In my view, it is quite right to move the amendment now, to restrict the Act to particular purposes. 2903 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is in error in thinking that an amendment on the clause providing for a short title can have that effect. 2903 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - It has been clearly and distinctly ruled that a Committee is bound by the title of a Bill. 2903 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -The honorable member is confusing the title with the short title. 2903 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - Should we be in order, in dealing with this Bill, in discussing the whole electoral law? Certainly not. 2903 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Everything connected with the postal vote can be discussed. 2903 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - Just so, but we are restricted to that. I have the right to propose by this amendment a further restriction. The Attorney-General has suggested that an amendment may be moved on clause 2, but I should like to know where the amendment which I wish to move would come in ? 2903 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - We cannot now discuss clause 2. 2903 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member could move any amendment on the adoption of the original voting by post provisions. 2903 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - I have looked at the clause, and fail to see where I can move the amendment that I desire to move. I could move the excision of certain words. For instance, there is the provision for the person who believes that he will on polling day be more than 5 miles from a polling place. I could move to excise those words, but in doing so I should be taking away an existing right, and in supporting the amendment honorable members would be in the position of seeking to deprive certain electors of the right to vote, a position in which they ought not to be placed. Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted - put. The Committee divided. 36 37 Majority ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 2903 KQP Kennedy 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD .- I move - That the vote of the honorable member for Lang be disallowed. 2903 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Can that be done in Committee ? 2903 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - Yes. 2903 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - The vote of the honorable member for Kennedy, as Mr. Speaker, is on record. 2903 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I shall tell the Committee all about my vote, which does not alter the case in the slightest. 2903 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - What is the objection to Mr. Speaker's vote? 2903 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I challenge the vote of Mr. Speaker on the ground that section 40 of the Constitution does not permit the Speaker to vote. It is true, as has already beensaid,that I, as Speaker, recorded a vote in the early morning after an all-night sitting. I do not remember whether I retained my seat in the corner, or crossed over; but, in any case, I voted. 2904 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - And the honorable member, as Speaker, claimed the vote as a right. 2904 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - Did I then say so? 2904 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - 1 think so. 2904 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I never spoke; the vote was never challenged. Section 40 of the Constitution is as follows : - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined by a majority of votes other than that of the Speaker. The Speaker shall not vote unless the numbers are equal, and then he shall have a casting vote. 2904 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - That is in the House - not in Committee. 2904 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - We have to recollect that there have been three periods or stages in the Speakership in British parliamentary government. The first period in the House of Commons was when the Speaker represented the Crown, and saw- that nothing interfered with the Crown's prerogative; the second period was when he became head of the House, and framed all the motions that were moved; and the third period was when- it was decided that the Speaker should be a non-partisan, and taken completely away from the realm of party politics. This latter step was taken some considerable time ago, with the object of making the Speaker a person who should hold the balance between all parties, and providing that he should on no account be dragged into party politics. When responsible government was given to New South Wales in 1852, the Constitution Act of that State provided, in section 23- 2904 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I rise to a point of order. I submit that the honorable member cannot raise a question like this in Committee. 2904 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr Mcdonald - i shall raise it in the House if the honorable member so prefers. 2904 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I know of no standing order which permits an honorable member to interrupt the proceedings in this way to challenge the vote of Mr. Speaker. There is only one way that I know of to challenge Mr. Speaker's actions, and that is when Mr. Speaker is in the chair. 2904 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Oh, no. 2904 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I say yes. 2904 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - This is challenging Mr. Speaker's action in Committee. 2904 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Will the honorable member find me a standing order which enables Mr. Speaker's vote to be challenged in Committee ? 2904 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - It has never been given in Committee before. 2904 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - Oh, yes. 2904 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I wish those constitutional authorities opposite would permit me to get a word in; but they are all charged to the lips with constitutional -lore. I submit that there is no standing order which permits the honorable member for Kennedy to raise this question now, but that the only time at which Mr. Speaker's vote or action of any kind can be challenged is in the House when Mr. Speaker is in the chair. Mr. Speaker is now sitting as a member of this Committee, and he is entitled to do anything that any other honorable member may do. I, therefore, submit that the honorable member for Kennedy cannot proceed unless he can- show that, under some standing order, he has the right to do so. 2904 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The position is a very simple one. The honorable member for Kennedy has challenged the vote of the honorable member for Lang, and he is quite right in doing so, because any member has the right to challenge a vote which he thinks has been taken irregularly in Committee. The honorable member for Lang is a member of this Committee, and as I know of no Mr. Speaker in Committee, I can take no notice of the point of order. 2904 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I am sorry that I was interrupted, because it necessitates my going over the ground again. I do not desire to see any heat raised, and I have tried to discuss this question without any. As I was saying, when the Constitution was granted to New South Wales the following words were expressly inserted : - The presence of at least twenty members of the Legislative Assembly, exclusive of the Speaker, shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the said Legislative Assembly for the despatch of business, and all questions (except as herein excepted) which shall arise in the said Assembly shall be decided by the majority of votes of such members as shall be present, other than the Speaker ; and when the votes shall be equal the Speaker shall have a casting vote. And we find that there is a similar provision in the Queensland Constitution in these words - The presence of at least sixteen members of the Legislative Assembly, exclusive of the Speaker, shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the said Legislative Assembly for the despatch of business, and all questions (except as by law is excepted) which shall arise in the said Assembly shall be decided by the majority of votes of such members as shall be present, other than the Speaker; and when the votes shall be equal the Speaker shall have a casting vote. Here we have a clear intimation that, following the English practice, the Speaker should not have a vote in the overseas Legislatures. In May, 10th edition, page 339, we are told - In the House of Lords the Speaker's name is taken first, and when the votes are even the question resolves in the negative. This shows that in the House of Lords the Speaker has only one vote, and not a casting vote. 2905 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The procedure in the House of Lords has nothing to do with us; we are guided by the procedure in the House of Commons. 2905 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I must be allowed to put the case in my own way. In the same edition of May, page 340, we are told- In case of an equality of voices, the non-contents have it, and the question is declared to have been resolved in the negative. On page 344 we are told - If the numbers in a division are equal, the Speaker (and in Committee the Chairman, see page 361) who otherwise never votes - I desire honorable members to bear in mind that in the House of Commons the practice is that the Speaker never votes - must give the casting voice. In the performance of this duty, he is at liberty to vote like any other member, according to his conscience, without assigning a reason ; but, in order to avoid the least imputation upon his impartiality, it is usual for him, when practicable, to vote in such a manner as not to make the decision of the House final, and to explain his reasons, which are entered on the journal. This shows us the reason why, when Constitutions were granted to the Dominions, it was decided that the Speaker should not have a vote other than a casting vote. But there is another important consideration. Under the United States Constitution the position is quite different. That Constitution, in section 5, sub-section 2, says - Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behaviour, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member. As I have intimated, the United States Constitution differs widely from ours, because it gives the House power to make such regulations for the conduct of business as it thinks proper. 2905 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - So does section 50 of our Constitution. 2905 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I shall deal with that presently. If we look at the Standing Orders of the United States House of Representatives, as shown in the House Manual Digest, we find it laid down that the Speaker shall not be required to vote in ordinary legislative proceedings, except where his vote would be decisive, or when the House is engaged in voting by ballot; and that in all cases of a " tie " vote, the question shall be lost. Here, again, we see, even in the United States, where they have full power to frame their own Standing Orders, that it is not desired that Mr. Speaker shall have a vote ; and that, while he is permitted to have a vote, in all cases where there is a " tie " the question is lost. Again, to show how the question may be further dealt with, let us look for a moment at what took place at the time our Constitution was being framed. The Federal Convention held in Sydney in 1897 discussed proposed clause 39, now section 40, of the Constitution. The clause, as it was before that Convention, was - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined by a majority of votes other than that of the Speaker; and when the votes are equal, the Speaker shall have a casting vote, but otherwise he shall not vote. The Chairman of the Convention announced that there was an amendment suggested to the clause as follows:. - After the word " shall," in the third line of the clause, it is proposed by the Parliament of Victoria to insert the words " except as hereinafter provided," and to add at the end of the clause the words " provided that in case of a proposed amendment of the Constitution the Speaker may vote, notwithstanding the votes are not equal, and in such case he shall not have a casting vote." There was a clear indication from the Parliament of Victoria, when they passed that amendment and sent it on to the Convention, that they were under the impression that the Speaker would not have a vote; and that they desired that he should have a primary vote. 2905 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is in the House; but the Speaker in Victoria frequently votes in Committee. 2905 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I shall come to that point. 2906 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - I rise to a point of order. The point that the honorable member for Kennedy has raised concerns the right of the honorable member for Lang to vote in this Committee. I submit that the honorable member is not in order in bringing up a lot of authorities that in no way touch the question of voting in Committee. I submit that he is not in order in taking up the time of the Committee in this way. 2906 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - When I consider the honorable member out of order, I shall so rule. 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - An honorable gentleman, who afterwards sat in this Chamber, and who is now on the High Court Bench - Justice Isaacs - brought the matter before the Convention. As reported on page 461 of the Official Record of the Debates of the Australasian Convention, second session, held in Sydney in 1897, he said - The object for which this amendment was introduced was that, while preserving under ordinary circumstances the very salutary rule that Mr. Speaker should observe an impartial attitude in the House of 'Representatives, yet, when such an extraordinary occasion arose as a proposed amendment of the Constitution, his State should not be deprived, in case of necessity, of his vote, but that he should not have a casting vote. They were prepared to give him a vote, but not a casting vote. 2906 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT Best - That is in the House. 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I am talking about what took place at the Convention, and not in Victoria. Mr. Isaacs went on to say- It is not only possible, but it has actually occurred in the Victorian Assembly, that a proposed amendment of the Constitution that was considered by one Chamber, at all events, to require an absolute majority, did not have that absolute majority by one vote. If Mr. Speaker had been allowed to vote in that case the vote would have been given. It seems a hard case that the State for which Mr. Speaker is returned should be deprived of his vote when the clause of the Constitution provides that an amendment of the Constitution cannot be carried unless it has an absolute majority of the Senate, and an absolute majority of the House of Representatives. Then Mr., now Justice, Barton, replied - The argument for this which my honorable and learned friend puts is that the State is not to be disfranchised. I do not know that it really means that the State is disfranchised. . The Speaker represents an electorate in the National Assembly in the same way as the Speaker in this Legislative Assembly represents an electorate in the representative and popular Chamber. If there is a question of the amendment of the Constitution here or in the Lower House of any one of the Parliaments of the Colonies, the Speaker is not entitled to any other vote than a casting vote. A similar opinion is practically given by Mr., now Justice, Higgins, in the same Convention. The point I make is that, the moment the Speaker comes on the floor of the chamber and takes part in Committee proceedings, his conduct is open to the vilest discussion that may take place. It is inevitable. The Speaker immediately associates himself with all forms of party feeling. 2906 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - It all depends on what kind of Opposition there is. 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - The Speaker allows himself to be discussed freely and openly on any vote that may be cast. It is idle to say that, because he does not speak, and merely votes, his vote cannot be criticised, as that of any other individual may be. 2906 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Did any one attack you when you did it? 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I shall come to that later. In those cases in which it has been done elsewhere, they will be found to be entirely different from our position; because it is clearly laid down in black and white, in section 40 of our Constitution, that - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined bv a majority of votes other than that of the Speaker. The Speaker shall not vote unless the numbers are equal, and then he shall have a casting vote. 2906 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Nobody disputes that. 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - If so, the matter may take another course. I do not know whether we are the sole judges in this matter. 2906 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - More threats? 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I may be wrong - probably the Attorney-General may correct me ; I do not profess to be a lawyer - but I say that if a matter is clearly defined in the Constitution, there is a higher authority even than Parliament to interpret that provision. 2906 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - Surely there can be no higher authority than ourselves as to what we do? The High Court interprets the provision of the Acts we pass, but not our procedure. 2906 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I think the High Court has more to do than merely interpret the Acts we pass. It has to interpret the Constitution under which we work, and the very moment we do anything unconstitutional, it is open, I believe, to any citizen to take action to bring the matter before the High Court. I do not altogether approve of that. My opinion is that the House should be the highest authority and tribunal in the land, and that no High Court should have the right to undo anything we have done here; but, unfortunately, that is not the position. I have been asked whether I have recorded my vote in Committee when Speaker. I did so on one occasion, and my vote was never challenged. The present Speaker also recorded his vote in Committee the other day, and it was not challenged. It was only afterwards that some began to consider whether it was right for him to do so; and I may have gone on doing it because I did not know that I was doing anything wrong at the time; but I have now come to the conclusion that it is not the correct thing for the Speaker to do so, because the Constitution clearly and definitely lays it down, in section 40, that the Speaker shall have no other than a casting vote. 2907 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - What about our standing order No. 1 ? 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - In regard to that point, the Speaker of the House of Commons does not record his vote in the House. There is no standing order in the House of Commons that permits him to do so. 2907 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - We are not in the House now. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - That is the point honorable members are now making in saying that we are not now in the House. The Constitution does not provide for anything but what takes place in the House. It only deals with the Speaker in the House. The Constitution knows nothing of any Committee. 2907 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Hear, hear ! 2907 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - It is included in the word " House." 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I maintain that the greater absorbs the lesser in this case. 2907 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Does that apply to all the Committees of the House? 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - It applies to this Committee. 2907 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Does it apply to the Standing Orders Committee or the House Committee? 2907 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - What a ridiculous question to ask. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The Standing Orders Committee, the House Committee, and even a Select Committee are quite apart from anything done here. If the honorable member votes in Committee of the House on something which is illegal, it will necessitate the passage of an Act of Parliament to remedy it, but any action that may be taken in the House Committee, or in the Standing Orders Committee, will not occasion the enactment of a new Statute. 2907 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The House has to confirm everything dealt with in any Committee. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - No matter what the Standing Orders Committee or any other such Committee may do, it is not worth anything until the House has decided on it. When a matter comes forward in the House from an outside body altogether, what is the result? Does any one know the Standing Orders Committee? No. The gentleman in charge may be the Attorney-General, the Prime Minister, or whoever brings in the matter. 2907 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Neither does the House know this Committee. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - This Committee is part and parcel of the House. It is of no use the honorable member quibbling and trying to get out of it in that way. 2907 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The quibbling is over on your side. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - The honorable member knows that I am the last to quibble. If I was as good at quibbling as the honorable member is, I would fight with any man in Australia for the championship. I do not wish to labour the question. 2907 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - You cannot labour it much longer; your half -hour has expired. 2907 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I raise this question because I believe that, under the Constitution, the Speaker has no right to record his vote in Committee, and I trust that the decision of the Committee, whatever it is, will be in accordance with the Constitution. 2907 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have come to a decision in the matter. 2907 K99 Lang 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON . - Before you state your decision, Mr. Chairman, as I am personally involved, I should like to address myself briefly to this question. I think that the honorable member for Kennedy has but exercised his right as a member of this House in challenging my action in respect to exercising my right to vote in Committee; but the grounds upon which he relies cannot be supported, so far as I am aware, by any authority, or by any evidence of parliamentary procedure that we have. By way of illustration, I would ask the honorable member whether he would deny the right of a member who occupied the position of Speaker of the House to take part in a discussion or to vote on his own Estimates in Committee? 2908 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Yes. 2908 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Unless the honorable member is prepared to do so, all his arguments must fall to the ground ; but I have never known such a right to be denied before. I think we may well set aside the United States of America authorities quoted, as well as others which have no binding authority on our procedure, and come at once to the point. There is no standing order of our own which precludes the Speaker from speaking and voting in Committee. If the Speaker of the House cannot, in Committee, exercise his vote as a private member representing a constituency, then it naturally follows that the Chairman of Committees cannot record his vote in the House as a private member on account of his position as Chairman of Committees, which is analogous to that of Speaker in the House, as the Presiding Officer over the proceedings. Yet the Chairman of Committees has frequently done so without his right being questioned. We have a special standing order giving only a casting vote to the Speaker in the House, and a casting vote only to the Chairman in Committee. If the argument applies in the one case, it must apply equally in the other. And if the contention of the honorable member for Kennedy were valid, the Chairman could not give a vote as a private member in the House itself. But I do not know of. an instance in which a vote given in the House by the honorable member for Perth, who is Chairman of Committees, has been challenged. Our Standing Orders provide that in the case of an equality of votes in the House the Speaker shall have a casting vote; and that in the case of an equality of votes in Committee the Chairman shall have a casting vote ; but that the Chairman shall not have a vote other than a casting vote in Committee, any more than the Speaker can have a vote other than a casting vote in the House. The point is that, when the vote in question was taken, we were in a Committee of the whole, and not in the House; and, therefore, I exercised my clear right to vote, not as Speaker, but as the member for Lang. As the member for Lang, I can no more be deprived of my right to vote in Committee than can any other honorable member. I vote in Committee, on ordinary business, not as Speaker, but in my capacity as the member for Lang. I am rather surprised that an honorable member with the honorable member for Kennedy's experience should have raised a point of this kind. Section 40 of the Constitution provides that - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined by a majority of votes other than that of the Speaker. The Speaker shall not vote unless the numbers are equal, and then he shall have a casting vote. That is the practice I have followed in the House. But the House has resolved itself into Committee, and I have voted in Committee as the member for Lang, and, as honorable members are well aware, the Speaker, in Committee, does not take the Chair, and consequently cannot by any possibility give a casting vote in Committee. Our Standing Orders recognise the distinction between the House and the Committee of the whole by providing for the Speaker's chair being vacated, and a Chairman to preside and report from time to time to the House. The House would not report to itself. The honorable member for Kennedy has quoted a number of authorities from May; but the particular authority that really does bear upon this question has not been quoted by him. His authorities have dealt with the Speaker's vote, not in Committee, but in the House. He will find the matter set out at page 368 of the 11th edition of May, where the position of the Speaker when speaking in Committee is dealt with. I am surprised that the honorable member has, with all his experience, overlooked it. May says - But while in the Chair the Speaker is thus restrained- That is the Chair of the House - by usage, in the exercise of his independent judgment, in a Committee of the whole House he is entitled to speak and vote like any other member. lb will thus be seen that, in the House of Commons' practice, there is a distinction drawn between the House and the Committee. Then May goes on to say - Among the earliest examples are those of Mr. Speaker Glanville, on the 4th May, 1640, upon the granting of twelve subsidies to the King; and of Mr. Speaker Lenthall, on the 22nd January, 1641, against the " brotherly gift " to the Scottish nation. Sir Fletcher Norton spoke strongly on the influence of the Crown on 6th April, 1780; and Mr. Speaker Grenville on the Regency question, on the 16th January, 1789. On 17th December, 1790, Mr. Speaker argued at length the question of the abatement of an impeachment, by a dissolution of Parliament, and cited a long list of precedents. On the 4th December, 1797, Mr. Speaker Addington addressed the Committee on the assessed taxes, from the gallery. The same Speaker also addressed a Committee on the union with Ireland in 1799, and ' again, 6th May; 1800, spoke in the Committee upon the Inclosure Bill. In Committee, on the charges against the Duke of York, 16th February, 1809, Mr. Speaker Abbot moved the commitment of Captain Sandon, a witness, for prevarication. Again, on the 1st June, 1809, he made a speech in Committee on Mr. Curwen's Bill for preventing the sale of seats in Parliament; and on 4th February, 1811, in Committee, on the Lords' resolution for a Commission for giving the Royal assent to the Regency Bill. Finally, he addressed a Committee on the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, in 1813, and carried an amendment excluding Catholics from Parliament, which caused the abandonment of the Bill. . . . And lastly, on the 9th June, 1870, Mr. Speaker Denison spoke, and voted, in Committee, on the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, in support of a clause exempting horses kept for husbandry from licence duty if used in drawing materials for the repair of roads. If the Speaker has a right to move a motion and to speak in Committee, it necessarily follows that he does so, not as Speaker, but, as I have said, as a private member, and that that right obviously carries with it the right also to vote. If, as the honorable member for Kennedy contends, the " Committee " and the " House " are synonymous terms, and there is no distinction recognised, why cannot Bills be read and passed in Committee; and why does the Committee have to report to the House? There would be no sense or meaning in the House reporting to itself. Why, also, cannot disorder in Committee be censured by the Committee? Why has it to be reported to the House, if the House and the Committee are recognised as the same thing. That there was a very wide distinction was recognised by the honorable member for Kennedy himself when, on the 6th December last, he voted in a division in Committee on an amendment moved in the Constitution Alteration (Industrial Matters) Bill. 2909 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Here is another case. 2909 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Yes; there is another case, too; but I think it sufficient, to support the stand I take, to quote only one instance in which the honorable member voted in Committee. That, alone, is sufficient to establish a permanent precedent. I think that I have' sufficiently demonstrated that I have been acting well within my rights, not as Speaker, but as the member for Lang, in taking part in these proceedings in Committee, and if any precedent were required, which I do not for a moment admit, the honorable member for Kennedy himself established that precedent, which consequently becomes the accepted practice of the House. 2909 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The honorable member for Kennedy has challenged the vote cast by the honorable member for Lang, upon grounds which he declares to be good as set forth by the Constitution. I wish to emphasize the fact that this is a Parliament created by the Constitution - created by Statute - and that its powers, privileges, and rights depend wholly upon that Statute. It is a Statute passed by the British Parliament, and has to be interpreted just as every other Statute is. Every one of its sections must be given its full meaning, as provided by the Acts Interpretation Act, section 12 of which declares that - Every section of an Act shall have effect as a substantive enactment without introductory words. I ask honorable"- members to consider for a moment what was the practice when the Constitution was brought into force, since it is necessary that they should do so in order to realize what section 40 of the Constitution really means. The Standing Orders are wholly ineffective as an authority in this case. 2909 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - They are not, because they are framed in the terms of section 50 of the Constitution. 2909 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - But the Standing Orders, like regulations, may not be inconsistent with the Act under which they are made. 2909 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Certainly not. 2910 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Then the whole point turns, not on what our Standing Orders permit, but upon the meaning of section 40 of the Constitution. In construing the terms of an Act, certain rules of interpretation are accepted by all Courts, and the main one is that the ordinary plain construction of a section is to be taken unless there appears some good reason to the contrary. Section 40 is very clear. It provides that - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined by a majority of votes other than that of the Speaker. The Speaker shall not 1 OtC unless the numbers are equal, and then he shall have a casting vote. Those words are clear and unambiguous. The only uncertainty arising, if it arises at all, is in regard to the meaning of the word " House," and as to what were the rights of the Speaker at the time that this Statute was passed. I shall deal with the last point first. We have to assume, since it is one of the principles accepted under the rules of interpretation, that the Legislature knew the circumstances to which the Statute referred, and knew what Were the powers of a Speaker at that particular time. These powers are set forth at page 368 of the 11th edition of May. 2910 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Does the honorable member know that this provision was taken from the Canadian Act? 2910 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - This is an Act of the British Parliament, and the British Parliament had before it the practice of centuries, modified as time went on, as to the rights, privileges, and duties of the Speaker at that time. Upon that point the whole question turns. The Speaker of the House of Commons in the House itself, at the time that the Act was passed, had a casting vote in the House, but he did not have an original vote. In Committee it was the practice of the Speaker to vote; but, as May shows at page 368, the practice had gradually fallen into desuetude, and that right was becoming less and less exercised as time went on. I do not deny that the Speaker of the House of Commons had that right then, and has it now. That was the state of the law -or the practice of the Commons at the time the Constitution Bill was passed. If section 40 of the Constitution is not to be taken as absolutely meaningless, it must refer to the powers then exercised by the Speaker. It must limit them, because, otherwise, it would be a perfectly meaningless thing for a Legislature to pass. The practice of the House of Commons was so well known to the House of Commons that it was perfectly absurd to suppose that they would introduce a mere declaratory clause. The Speaker had the right to a casting vote in the House, and an original vote in Committee. He rarely exercised that vote, and does so more rarely as years go on. The Convention, when discussing this matter, also knew exactly the position. Although the Act was passed by the British Parliament, it was, in effect, drafted by the Convention, and, except technically, it is the work of the Convention. Section 40 was substituted for section 39, as shown on page 461 of the Convention debates, and reads' as follows : - Questions arising in the House of Representatives shall be determined by a majority . of votes other than that of the Speaker, and when the votes are equal the Speaker shall have a casting vote, but otherwise lie shall not vote. A proposal that, in case of a proposed amendment of the Constitution, the Speaker might vote, notwithstanding that the votes were not equal, and that in such cases he should not have a casting vote, was rejected, and the effect of this, and the acceptance of section 40, was to limit the power of the Speaker to a casting vote only. This Parliament exercises the whole of its powers under that Statute. Without it it has none. 2910 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Section 40 was taken from a section in identical terms in the Canadian Constitution, and Bour moi. shows that the Speaker frequently voted in Committee under the Canadian Constitution. 2910 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I do not care where the section was taken from; I say it was applied to this Parliament, and was applied to it by the British Legislature. The Constitution of the Canadian House of Commons is entirely different from ours, and the application of that section there is not to be supposed to be identical with its application here. It is contended that the words " House of Representatives," in section 40, affect the vote of the Speaker only when the House is not in Committee; but let us look at the section and the Act generally to see what the "House of Representatives" means. 2910 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The section can apply only to conditions in which the Speaker can have a casting vote. Can he have a casting vote in Committee ? 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member wants me to concede the whole point. If this does not apply to the Speaker in Committee, then, of course, the honorable member's position is established. In sections 24, 34, 35, and 60, the words ' House of Representatives ' ' appear, and in every case they are used, not in distinction from Committee, but in distinction from the Senate. They mean the House, whether sitting in Committee or not. No one can deny that this question has arisen in the House of Representatives. 2911 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - According to your argument, would the Speaker or the Chairman of Committees have the casting vote in Committee? 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Chairman of Committees. 2911 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Then the section cannot apply, because it says the Speaker shall have the casting vote. 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - If section 40 does not make any difference to the position of the Speaker as it exists in the House of Commons, why is it put there? The Speaker in the House of Commons clearly has the right to vote in Committee, but can only exercise his casting vote when the House is not in Committee. There was no need to put in section 40 if it is only intended to re-enact that. The right of the Speaker to exercise his casting vote was never, and would never have been, challenged. This was put in for a specific purpose, and whatever was the intention of the Legislature, it is a clear prohibition, and operates against the Speaker, whether the House happens to be in Committee or in the House. The matter ought to be fairly looked at apart from any party bias, and if it operates unjustly, surely we can agree to an amendment of the Constitution at an early moment. Will the Attorney-General say that it is not an arguable point ? 2911 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Not only is it not an arguable point upon the section, but the point has been tested both in the British House of Commons and the Canadian House of Commons, and in this House in the same language. 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Either section 40 is utterly meaningless, or else it means what the honorable member says it means, and if the powers of our Speaker are identical with those of the Speaker of the House of Commons, there was no necessity for section 40 to confer those powers upon the Speaker. 2911 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Why did they differentiate between the President and the Speaker ? 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - A pertinent question. The Senate is in a different position from that of this House, because a section such as has been referred to does not operate with regard to it. 2911 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The President of the Senate votes in Committee 2911 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Under the circumstances, I should like the honorable gentleman to look at this point fairly and squarely, and to give us his reasons why he does not agree, if he does not, with the views which have been expressed from this side. Since the matter affects the House and the country very materially, I ask that he will give an opportunity for the matter to be referred, if necessary, to a more impartial tribunal than this is. Legislation to which the House of Representatives may agree may become vitiated by this very thing to which we object. With all deference to you, Mr. Chairman, the honorable member for Lang, so long as he is Speaker of the House, never ceases to be its Speaker, and his contention that he is in the same position as yourself is quite opposed to the plain words of the Constitution. There is in the Constitution a prohibition directed against him; there is none against yourself. The honorable member for Lang does not cease to be the Speaker of this House because he vacates the chair when the House goes into Committee; if he ceased to be Speaker, he could not resume the chair. 2911 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Attorney-General 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - I feel very much tempted to reply at length to the argument of the ex-Attorney-General. If I do not do so, it must be understood as not implying any disrespect to him, but I feel that the time allowed for the conduct of Government business will not permit of it, and that I shall consult the public interest best by moving - That the question be now put. Question - That the question be now put - put. The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the vote of the honorable member for Lang be disallowed - put. The Committee divided. 35 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Sitting suspended from 6.39 to 8 p.m. Clause agreed to. Clause 2 - Sections three, four, fourteen, twenty-three, thirty-five, and thirty-eight of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 191 1 are repealed, and the provisions of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902-1909 which were repealed by those sections are hereby revived and re-enacted. 2912 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- The Government have chosen to enact this legislation without laying the measure before Parliament in such a way as to enable honorable members to follow the proposal submitted; and the Bill has not been explained by the Prime Minister or any of his colleagues. This proposal, so far as I know, is without parallel in any British Parliament. It is not only an extraordinary piece of legislation, but, in my opinion, it will defeat the purpose of honest government. It is either intended to deceive, or it is not. If the Government are afraid to put their proposals before Parliament in a straightforward way, they should have the courage and honesty to say so. Enactments of this kind cannot be justified under any circumstances or conditions, and particularly when we are dealing with the foundational principles of representative and responsible government. The franchise of the people is all important; and the Labour party have been the pioneers of the extension of the franchise to all. Honorable members opposite laugh and jeer now; but they never without pressure freely voted for any legislation which had for its object the extension of the franchise. Honorable members opposite belong to a party which to this day keeps in existence in the Legislatures of the States, Houses elected on a privileged franchise, or the members of which are appointed as nominees, to govern a democratic country. Now, because they cannot take away the privilege of electing both Houses of the Commonwealth Parliament on a democratic franchise, they pose as Radical legislators, who are in favour of a greater extension of the franchise. It is said that the proposal now is to restore what the Labour party took away; but we took away nothing. 2913 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - The Federal Convention gave our present franchise. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Constitution, at the lead of the late Charles Cameron Kingston, did give a free franchise to the people of Australia. 2913 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - He had not very much to do with it. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - He was the one man who secured every right existing in the Commonwealth at the present time, to all citizens of the Commonwealth. 2913 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - He could not do it by himself. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Mr. Kingston was preceded by the late Sir George Grey, who undoubtedly gave the greatest lead in Australia, and in other countries, on this particular question. The Government, their supporters outside, and especially their press advocates, say that the late Government took away certain privileges from the electors of Australia. 2913 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Certain rights. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - We could not take away their rights. 2913 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - The late Government did so. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - We did not. It was proved, and admitted, on evidence which has been quoted again and again by Ministers, who do not belong to our party, that the postal vote had led to corruption. 2913 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Is the right honorable member referring to the Queensland postal vote? The Queensland Act is absolutely different from the Commonwealth Act. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Does the honorable member say that Liberal Ministers in Queensland did not determine to repeal the postal vote because of the corrupt practices that prevailed under it? 2913 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - I say that the Queensland Act is quite different from our Act. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - If the Government are so sure of their position, may I ask whether they have asked for reports from their responsible officers as to the operation of the postal vote while it was in operation ? 2913 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That was all gone into in this House. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Perhaps the honorable member will allow me to ask the Prime Minister whether he has asked for reports from the men who are responsible for the administration of the Electoral Department, as to what their opinion is of the operation of the sections providing for postal voting. 2913 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I asked the right honorable gentleman if he had consulted the officers before he repealed the sections, and he would not' tell me. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I was not asked. 2913 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Yes, you were. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - We had evidence through the Courts, and from our own officers, that there was corruption, and that the law was such that it was almost impossible to prevent it. 2913 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Will the right honorable gentleman say that the Chief Electoral Officer advised the repeal of the postal vote? 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I am asking the Prime Minister, who is proposing to restore the postal vote without giving this Parliament an opportunity to review the matter- 2913 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The honorable member is reviewing it now. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Did the honorable gentleman, before taking this drastic step, inquire from the responsible officers whether there were good reasons for repealing these sections of the Act? There is silence. 2913 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Prime Minister's answer is a very fair one to the question. 2913 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No doubt the Attorney-General would say that a fair answer to my argument would be a motion that the question be now put. It is a matter of indifference to any one who is aiming to represent a portion of the people what action the Prime Minister or the Attorney-General may take. After all, we must remember we are the passing creatures of a day in the progress of a country. Let it be said, to the immortal credit of our race, that they are not seriously affected by either conceit or bumptiousness in their representatives. The progress of a country goes on whether the people are required to give up their privileges or not - whether their representatives seek to subserve their own interests or not, the great heart of the people stands true for ever, and they make steady progress. If the Government are so anxious regarding the postal vote, it would only be fair to give them an opportunity to deal with it effectively and positively. I have no other view to express than what I have expressed again and again. If the Government can bring down reports from their professional heads of departments- 2914 KFC 0 0 FLEMING, William Mr Fleming - The right honorable member objected to their being named in the matter on a former occasion. 2914 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The right honorable gentleman asked why the officers should be " dragged in." 2914 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - And he refused to bring a report down from the Chief Electoral Officer. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The statistics and the facts were laid before the House - facts, to my own knowledge, under practically the same law, as, for instance, at Gympie. 2914 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Do I understand the right honorable member to say that that was under practically the same law ? 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - For all practical purposes, in regard to the postal vote. 2914 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - I am afraid the right honorable member has not read the Queensland Act. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - What was proved to have happened was that postal votes were taken from two ladies by a certain justice of the peace, and, when it was discovered by him that they had not voted as he had expected them to vote, the votes were put down the sewer and never posted, and, of course, never delivered. 2914 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - That is what the honorable member for Maranoa said he would do, and what he did do. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The honorable member for Parkes is very good at interjecting. 2914 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - Very good ; I have studied it 1 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I remember that the other night the honorable member interjected a statement about my personal affairs, and said he had his information on the most reliable authority. 2914 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I asked a question. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - And he never apologized or admitted his error. There was not a word of truth in the honorable member's statement, and I asked his authority. 2914 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I made no statement; I asked a question. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - As I was saying, the votes of those ladies were never delivered, and the person who failed to deliver them was afterwards able to say that he had lost them. What guarantee have we under such circumstances - and there are hundreds of other cases I could give - that the postal vote is an honest and effective way of recording the verdict of the electors ? 2914 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Is the right honorable member altogether opposed to the postal vote? 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No. and I never have been. 2914 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - Why did 'the honorable member not deal with the matter during his term of office? 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The late Government did deal with it. 2914 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The right honorable member cannot possibly reply to all these interjections. A casual interjection might be permitted. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The honorable member for Wannon assumes, or is trying to assume, that we did not give a substitute for the postal vote. We created an absentee vote, which, according to the Prime Minister, is almost as good as the ' postal vote. 2914 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Does the absentee vote enable the sick and invalid to vote? 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Prime Minister in this House said that an absentee vote is just as good as the postal vote. 2914 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph COOK - I do not think I said anything of the kind. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Unfortunately for himself, the Prime Minister is reported in Hansard to have said so. 2914 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - There is another interjection there which casts a doubt on that. 2914 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I do not wish the Prime Minister to be misrepresented. If, in this instance, the honorable member has been misreported and done an injustice, it is only fair that people should know, because, Heaven knows, he is under enough difficulties without that standing against him. If he says he did not say, and never intended to say, and never had it in his mind to say, anything of the kind, we should admit that he has been wrongly reported, and that he has been done an injustice. Will the honor- able member take that view ? 2915 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Were you misreported about the sixpenny land tax ? 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No, and I did not say I was. 2915 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Did you not say you had " 6d." on your notes, although you advocated "4d."? 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - That is an absolute fact, which I admit. I wish to know from Ministers whether they feel there is any warrant for submitting a Bill of this kind in the way they have? 2915 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Why are we doing it if we do not? 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I presume they are doing it for the purpose of burking discussion and preventing the deliberation of a newly-elected Parliament on the important matter of franchise. 2915 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I invited assistance and suggestions, but we do not seem to be getting any. 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I have taken some pains to discover the parts of the Acts repealed and restored by this Bill, but it is not an easy task. I venture to say there are some Ministers who could not say what particular sections in the Acts mentioned are repealed. 2915 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Reinstated. 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - As I read the clause, they are both repealed and reinstated. It is almost an enigma, unless we delve into all the Electoral Acts since the Commonwealth commenced. I believe it would be wise, late in the day as it is, to amend the clause by omitting the reference to the repeal of sections 14, 23, 35, and 38 of the Electoral Act 1911, and then afterwards striking out the words " and the provisions of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902-1909 which were repealed by those sections are hereby revived and reenacted." This would permit of the main provisions dealing with postal voting coming down to the House in an ordinary Bill and being dealt with in the ordinary way. I warn the Government that by this proposal they are initiating a practice and a system of legislation that will work both ways with more than one party, because it may be applied to other questions. It is certainly an innovation that will not be defended by jurists or experienced responsible politicians. Further, in the state of business it is unjustifiable, and should not be proceeded with. 2915 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - There is abundant opportunity in the Bill as it is now to make any amendment to the postal voting system. 2915 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Does the Attorney-General, on behalf of the Government, say that this is a desirable way of enacting legislation 1 In my opinion it is not, and, therefore, to afford an opportunity to the Government to put forward their side of the case, I move an amendment - That the words "fourteen, twenty-three, thirty-five, and thirty-eight " be left out. If this amendment is carried, I shall further move to delete the words at the end of the clause - And the provisions of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1902-1909, which were repealed by those sections, are hereby revived and re-enacted. The purport of that will be to enable a measure to be brought down in a plain form dealing with postal voting, and to be dealt with by the House as a measure of this kind should be. 2915 KJE Flinders ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Attorney-General 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - The Government cannot accept the amendment. The position was explained at a much earlier stage of the Committee. It is very simple. The Government have seen fit to introduce this Bill in its present form, not with a view of inviting the Committee to go into the whole process of manufacturing a new system of voting by post. That was done previously, and, in the view of the Government, the system so arrived at acted well, notwithstanding everything the honorable member has said, and brought an easy, safe, and proper method of exercising the franchise to many thousands of persons who have since been deprived of it. We do not invite the Committee to enter into a scheme of making a new system of voting by post, as if it had never been tried. What we do is to bring forward again, and ask the Committee to sanction as a whole, that system of voting by post which has been found thoroughly safe and efficient; but, in so doing, we give honorable members full opportunity to suggest amendments if they have any real bond fide desire to help us in perfecting this scheme. 2915 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - You will not let us get at those provisions. 2915 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If honorable members have any real bond fide desire to improve any part of the scheme of postal voting which has been found not completely effective., or to help us to make it effective, or to perfect it, we shall welcome any such suggestion, and we have drafted a Bill which gives honorable members full opportunity to bring forward any such amendments. 2916 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Will the honorable member show us where there is room in the Bill to do it? 2916 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Time will not allow me to instruct the honorable member in parliamentary procedure from Alpha to Omega. I have already shown the Committee where it can be done. If any honorable member chooses to take the trouble to look into the sections which are re-enacted in this Bill, and he has any real objections to the working of any of those provisions, and desires to amend them, parliamentary procedure will allow him to do it under this Bill; but we cannot accept the amendment of the Leader of the Opposition, because we do not invite the Committee, at this stage of the session, to re-enter on the discussion of the whole of the machinery for postal voting as if we were making a new kind of machinery that had never been tried before. We are determined to get this matter through; and, if honorable members do not desire honestly and seriously to help us, and if they waste the time of the Committee in other ways, they have only themselves to blame. We have already wasted two or three hours this afternoon on a matter that should never have been brought up. As I said before, we shall give full attention to any matter brought forward bond fide with a view to improving the measure ; but we do not intend to give consideration to any matter brought forward with any other object. 2916 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES .- I hope I may be permitted, before the honorable gentleman closes my mouth, to say a few words. The Attorney-General, who is a man of standing and reputation in the community, has assured us that this Bill is before the Committee in such a form as to permit of fair discussion. That I utterly deny. 2916 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Have you any amendment to move? 2916 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The tenor of the honorable member's remarks would lead us to believe that if any honorable member wishes to move an amendment which would make the Bill more effective or modify it in any reasonable way, he can do so. That again I utterly deny. In the whole history of this Parliament there has never been put upon the business-paper legislation of this sort. Every honorable member opposite, including the Attorney- General himself, is utterly unable to tell us what this measure actually does. I say that deliberately. I assume that the honorable member would have told us what it does if he were able to do so. It proposes, by repealing certain sections of the Act of 1911, to restore certain other sections of the Act of 1909. 2916 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Under which we worked for years. 2916 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Very well. Let us suppose that it does what it intends to do, and that it is confined to the repealing of certain sections which prohibit voting by post, and let us assume, further, that it is the desire of a member of the Opposition to amend one of the sections in the Act of 1909, which deals with voting by post. I invite the attention of honorable members to a plain statement of concrete facts. Section 18 of the Act of 1909 amends a provision of the principal Act dealing with voting by post, and relates to authorized witnesses. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I desire that the term " authorized witnesses " shall include or exclude justices of the peace. Will the Attorney-General tell me by what means I am to bring such an amendment before the Committee? 2916 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - By an amendment of clause 2. 2916 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I cannot do it. I can only vote against the clause in a blind, unreasoning way. There is no other course open to me, except the eminently reasonable and proper one which the Leader of the Opposition has stated. I wish to emphasize what the Leader of the Opposition has done. By approving of the first part of the clause, he has assented to the principle of voting by post, and he has requested that the sections dealing with voting by post, namely, sections 109 of the principal Act, and the following sections, shall be placed on the table by the Government, so that we may deal seriatim with them. I wish to show that this is an eminently reasonable thing to do, whereas the proposal put before us by the Government is eminently unreasonable, since it asserts, in effect, that the principal Act was perfect, and that it not only provided for voting by post, but precluded the abuse of the system. In the very Bill by which the Government proposed originally to amend the principal Act, they proposed to amend these very sections. The Honorary Minister, when introducing the Electoral Bill, said that he recognised the weakness of these sections, and that was why it was proposed to take out the provision dealing with authorized witnesses. Section 118a of the Act of 1909 provided that the authorized witnesses - justices of the peace and others - should take from the electors the completed postal ballot-paper, and post it to the Returning Officer. In the Bill to amend the Electoral Act, which the present Government introduced, it was proposed to take away that right, because it violated the secrecy of the ballot, and to lodge it in the hands of the electors themselves. How can it be consonant with fair play, both to the Opposition and the people of the Commonwealth, that the Attorney-General should deliberately say that this is an endeavour to re-enact a proposal which he himself, through his lieutenant, has declared to be unworkable and unfair, and to assert, further, that we have ample opportunity to make any amendment we please? The Honorary Minister, when introducing the Electoral Bill, said - In the old days we were charged with being responsible for the Act under which a justice of the peace . . . could collect these ballot-papers in their envelopes, could know pretty well how the voters were voting, and then go away and lose the votes that were cast against their party. The honorable member for East Sydney interjected - Is it not a weak spot when we find that interested persons do the posting? The Honorary Minister replied - That is why we are altering the Act. The Attorney-General now proposes that we shall accept this measure with that blemish, which, in itself, is sufficient to condemn it. All that we ask is that we and the country shall be treated fairly. We ask that section 109, and the following sections dealing with voting by post, shall be laid on the table, so that we may consider them. We propose to deal with them fairly and on their merits. If there be, on the part of the Government, any sense of the responsibility which belongs to men in high office, they should not prostitute their positions by acting in this way. I ask honorable members to consider what this Bill does. It declares that - Sections 3, 4, 14, 23, 35, and 38 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1911 are repealed . . . Can honorable members tell me what that means ? I turn to the. Electoral Act of 19 11, section 3 of which provides that - Section 2 of the principal Act is amended by omitting therefrom the words " Part X. - Voting by Post." Then, again, section 4 provides that - Section 8 of the principal Act is amended by omitting therefrom the words " except the powers of that officer under Part X, of this Act." So far, so good. We come now to section 14, which provides that - Part X. - Voting by Post - of the principal Act, including sections 109 to 121 (both inclusive) is repealed. That section, therefore, covers the whole of the sections dealing with voting by post. I now ask the Prime Minister to glance at section 23, which enacts that - Section 158 of the principal Act is repealed, and the following sections inserted in its stead : - " 158. A ballot-paper shall (except as otherwise provided by regulations under section 139 or the regulations relating to absent voting) be informal if - it is not authenticated by the initials of the presiding officer or by an official mark as prescribed ; it has no vote marked on it or has votes marked on it for a greater or lesser number of candidates than the number required to be elected; or it has upon it any mark or writing (not authorized by this Act or the regulations to be put upon it) which would in the opinion of the returning officer enable the voter to be identified : " Provided that paragraph (c) shall not apply to any mark or writing placed upon the ballot-paper by an officer, notwithstanding that the placing of the mark or writing upon the ballot-paper is a contravention of this Act. . . . What relation has that to the postal vote ? Why is that section repealed in this way under cover of a Bill, the short title of which is " The Postal Voting Restoration Act " ? It has no bearing on the postal vote. When we proposed to move this afternoon that this Bill should be entitled "A Bill to amend the Electoral Act," we were not permitted to do so; but it is intended, under cover of this measure, to introduce an amendment wide-reaching in its effect, and which relates to the effect of the franchise over the whole community, and is not restricted to postal voting. There is no attempt to explain this proposed alteration. Then, again, section 35 of the Act of 1911, which this Bill repeals, provides that - Section 174 of the principal Act is amended by omitting paragraph iv. therefrom. Was there ever before in the history of this Parliament a position in which honorable members, in order to ascertain the meaning of a Bill, had to consult three separate Statutes? Are we not usually supplied with amending Bills showing in black type the proposed alterations, so that the plainest man may read and understand them? In this case, the Bill is simply thrown upon the table without any explanation or any attempt to explain it. For the moment I cannot find paragraph 4 of section 174 of the principal Act. It does not even appear in the consolidated Statutes, and I defy any one to trace it. Finally, section 38 of the Act of 19 11 provides that - Section 182 of the principal Act is amended by omitting from the table of Electoral offences and punishments the words " voter's certificate." All these sections which I have just recapitulated have no relation one way or the other to voting by post. The provision for their repeal has been inserted in this Bill in such a way that only hours of industrious effort have enabled us to trace some of them. The reason for their insertion is not known to any of us. Clearly the Attorney-General does not apprehend the reason, or, surely, he would have told us why, in a Bill to provide for the restoration of postal voting, there should be a reference to these other matters. I do not know whether they are good or bad; I cannot see what is their scope, and should be glad to be told why they have been introduced into this Bill. I ask the Attorney-General to confine this Bill to the restoration of the postal vote, and to eliminate these other matters. 2918 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - There is nothing in the Bill except that which is immediately necessary for the restoration of the postal vote. 2918 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Whatever bearing sections 23, 35, and 38 of the Act of 1911 have to the postal vote, it must be admitted that they have it because they have a bearing on all votes. 2918 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - No; look at section 23. 2918 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I have read section 23, and also section 158 of the principal Act to which it relates. I say emphatically it is not confined to informal postal votes, but extends to all votes. Under a Postal Vote Restoration Act, we should deal only with postal votes. That I am prepared to do, and claim that we have a right to do, but we also have a right to expect that, when dealing with section 14, which is hereby repealed, section 14, which covers 109 and subsequent sections, shall be placed on the table, so that we may make suitable amendments. That is, after all, the shortest way and the best way, and if that is done, we are perfectly prepared to agree to it; but we desire that our amendments may be fairly considered and debated. They cannot be debated and considered now. The measure is so drafted as to make its clear meaning absolutely unknowable, even to the legal mind, and does not permit of that clear and reasonable discussion and debate and amendment that a measure of this sort, which goes to the very basis of democratic government, demands. 2918 F4S Parramatta LP Prime Minister and Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The honorable member has just spent fifteen minutes in showing that it would be wicked to waste further time in this debate. If the clause is unknowable and unamendable, why does the honorable member invite the Attorney-General to help him to amend it, and put it right? My reply to the honorable member is that we gave him every provision referred to in this clause in a larger Bill many weeks ago, and the Opposition declined to take the opportunity to amend it to their hearts' content. 2918 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - What are you going to do with that other Bill? 2918 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - The Opposition have persistently blocked every opportunity to amend and consider it. 2918 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - What bunkum! 2918 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member for Gwydir has been warned by me several times. 2918 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - That is not true. 2918 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I name the honorable member for Gwydir for insulting the Chair. 2918 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I move- That the honorable member for Gwydir be suspended from the service of the House. 2918 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -I trust the honorable member will be given an opportunity to withdraw the remark, and apologize to the Committee and the Chair. 2918 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - If the Chairman takes the remark as a personal reflection, I withdraw it, and apologize. Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put - That the question (Mr. Fisher's amendment) be now put. The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. 2919 JXA Hunter 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON . - I was very pleased to hear the Attorney-General say that he would be prepared to consider any amendment in the Bill which might be brought forward. . Personally, I have always held that provision should be made for the voting of the sick and the infirm, and in the last Parliament I could not see my way clear to eliminate from the electoral law the provisions for postal voting, as the weight of evidence in favour of that course did not seem sufficiently heavy. In view of the many statements that have been made here since as to the abuse of the postal voting system, I have come to the conclusion that it is our duty to provide machinery to permit of the voting of the sick and the infirm without the possibility of abuses, and I have drafted an. amendment which, I think, will do that. This ought not to be made a party question. The Prime Minister laughs. 2919 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I should think so. 2919 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - If the Prime Minister will turn up Hansard, he will see that I have deplored making this question a party one. 2919 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - But the honorable member's party has made it a party question. 2919 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The Liberals have made it a party question. 2919 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I have always stated that I consider it a people's, not a party, question, and that every facility should be given to the electors for the recording of votes, so long as the elections are conducted purely. 2919 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Then why did the honorable member vote for the repeal of the postal provisions of the electoral law ? 2920 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - If my memory serves me aright; I voted with the honorable member for the retention of the provisions giving opportunities for the voting of the sick and the infirm. 2920 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - The honorable member, and the honorable member for Bourke, voted with this party in that matter. 2920 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I both spoke and voted for the retention of the provisions referred to, but in view of the interjection of the Prime Minister, it is as well that the electors should be informed that I am not in any way acting the hypocrite. I have been thoroughly conscientious throughout. I know of many aged persons who, during the whole of their lifetime, have taken a keen interest in politics, but are now - perhaps because of senile decay - unable to go to the polling booths, and I am in favour of provision being made which will allow them to record their votes without having to do so. I move - That the following words be added to the clause : - Provided that where an elector, who, by reason of illness or infirmity, believes that he will be unable to attend at the polling place at any time during the hours of polling, may make application by post to the returning officer of the division in which the applicant is enrolled for a vote after the issue of the writ for the election, and within seven days preceding the day of the election. The returning officer, on a day previous to the election, and after the day for receiving applications has expired, shall instruct the presiding officer appointed at the nearest polling place to call at the address of the applicant, and who shall, if satisfied that the claimant is entitled to vote under the provisions of this section, supply a ballot-paper to the elector, who, in the presence of the officer, but so that the officer cannot see the vote, shall mark the ballot-paper in the prescribed manner, and shall fold and secure the ballot-paper so that the vote cannot be seen. The ballot-paper shall then be placed in a sealed ballot-box in the presence of the presiding officer, and shall be opened and counted at the scrutiny at the close of the ballot. The adoption of that amendment would provide adequate machinery for the recording of the votes of the sick and the infirm, and should meet the strong objection to the postal vote in its old form. The Attorney-General has stated that the Government are prepared to increase the expenditure on elections if thereby they can be conducted more purely. The additional expense which the adoption of my proposal would involve would not be great, because in many places there would be no applications, and polling booths are in most divisions so near together, such great facilities for the recording of votes having been given by both parties when in power, that it would not be difficult for presiding officers to call on applicants. It may be objected that in sparsely populated districts it would be difficult to give effect to my provision, but in that case we might also provide that persons residing more than 5 miles from a polling booth could send their votes by post, instead of having an officer wait on them. I wish to facilitate the voting of the sick and infirm, and ask the Government not to brush aside my amendment without consideration. If Ministers cannot accept it, they may be able to make a proposal which would be acceptable to both sides, and it would be best for all concerned to have some understanding on this matter, because we all desire that the sick and infirm shall be able to record their votes. It does not matter how we accomplish our end so long as the elections are clean and above board. 2920 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - How can there be a double dissolution in that case ? 2920 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - We do not desire a double dissolution, but we do desire proper electoral machinery. 2920 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - Would the amendment be workable in such large constituencies as Kennedy and Maranoa? 2920 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I should be prepared to meet such a position by providing that, where an applicant resides at a greater distance than 5 miles from the nearest polling place, he shall forward a doctor's certificate, and in such case the officer shall forward a postal voting ballot-paper to be returned on or before the date of election. We should then be sure that the person who applied was a sick person, and abuse would be prevented. 2920 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - It would cost a great deal to get a doctor's certificate. 2920 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I venture to say that, if we were to go carefully into the cases likely to occur in those scattered areas, we should not get five where the applicant resided over 5 miles distant. If it were possible to look up the old records, we could ascertain how many such persons there were; and I venture to say they would be very few. 2920 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - We expect the facilities to be made use of more extensively. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - And I desire them to be made use of legitimately as extensively as possible. The one objection I have to the postal vote is that it has been abused. More people voted by post in Victoria than in all the rest of Australia, and it cannot be contended that there were more sick people in this State than there were throughout the remainder of the Commonwealth. For instance, in Kooyong, there were more people who voted by post than in the whole of Western Australia. 2921 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Does the honorable member suggest that the postal vote was fraudulently used in Kooyong? 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I suggest nothing. 2921 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - That is the only inference. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Under the amendment, there could be no doubt as to the genuineness of the applications. Our presiding officers are men to be trusted, and they would be responsible for ascertaining whether an individual was sick and infirm. I put this amendment forward in all seriousness, and ask the Government to consider it. We desire to show that we are anxious to give every person the right to vote, and they should be able to vote if they happen to be sick; but we must prevent any abuses. 2921 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The honorable member ought to vote for this Bill. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - No ; since I voted for the postal vote, I have come to the conclusion that many people used that vote who were not really invalids. 2921 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The terms of the postal votes extended beyond invalids; it was a matter of convenience to the voters. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - I venture to say that even a majority of honorable members opposite will not contend that a reason for proposing to restore the postal vote is to convenience electors who are not ill - to enable hale and hearty men to record their votes by post. If that contention holds good, we can understand the abuses in the past. 2921 JOY 0 0 BENNETT, James Mr Bennett - What about people who are away from home? 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - They can exercise the absent vote. 2921 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - But the polling place may be miles away from where they live. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - If honorable members look at the amendment, they will see that there is provision for all to record their votes. 2921 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - But the amendment is limited to sick and infirm people. 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Yes. 2921 KFC 0 0 FLEMING, William Mr Fleming - What about the man who has to ride 60 or 70 miles to vote ? 2921 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Provision is made for him in the absent vote; all I desire to deal with in the amendment are the sick and infirm. My object is to get honorable members on both sides to consider the matter, with a view to evolving some plan that will attain the object we should all have in view, namely, providing facilities for the sick and infirm to record their votes. 2921 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I should like to know whether, if this amendment is put, I shall be prevented from moving a previous amendment. 2921 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - That is a matter of procedure. If the honorable member has a preceding amendment, he, of course, is entitled to move it. 2921 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - If the Government accept the amendment now submitted, I shall have no need to move my amendment. 2921 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I cannot make a proviso of that sort. 2921 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I desire to move that, after the word " fourteen," the words " that all portion of section fourteen- " 2921 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is out of order. We have now reached the word " thirty-eight," and behind that the honorable member cannot go. 2921 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The effect of the rejection of the amendment of the honorable member for Wide Bay is that the clause remains as it was, and the suggested amendment now is that words be inserted after the word " fourteen," which, I think, is permissible. 2921 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The point at issue is a very simple one. The Committee have decided that the words that were proposed to be struck out shall stand part of the clause, and, therefore, we cannot alter those words without recommitting them. 2921 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - As I understand the situation, the resolution the Committee arrived at was that all the words up to ' thirty-eight ' ' should stand part of the clause. That means, I submit, that we cannot take those words out of the clause ; but it does not mean that we cannot insert words between " fourteen " and "twenty-three." The Committee have not decided that we cannot insert words between those words, nor that what ' fourteen ' ' stands for cannot be amended. I draw attention to the fact that the Attorney-General suggested that, while he desired to keep "fourteen" in as an indication of his intention, he had no desire to prevent what " fourteen " means being amended. It means the retention of something like twelve sections of the principal Act. 2922 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The position is perfectly obvious. The Committee have already decided that words up to and including "thirty-eight" shall stand part of the clause ; that is, that the clause shall remain unalterable in Committee up to that word. That has always been the practice in Committee; and it would be impossible to make any progress if any honorable member could go back on work already done. I, therefore, rule that we cannot go behind the word " thirty-eight " in the clause, and that all amendments to be in order must follow that word. 2922 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Will you allow me to point out that it is quite within the province of the Committee to make an addition to the clause, and I suggest that the honorable member move his amendment as a proviso. 2922 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - There is no objection to any one moving additions. That is what the honorable member for Hunter proposes, and what I am trying to put before the Committee. 2922 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I understand now that I can move to add the words " provided that section 14 read as follows: - " 2922 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - You cannot provide anything inconsistent with what has been passed. 2922 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I rise to a point of order. I submit the honorable member for Bourke should have raised his question immediately the honorable member for Hunter announced his amendment. It is no time now to ask the honorable member for Hunter to waive his amendment after the honorable member has made a long speech. If that sort of thing goes on, we shall have long speeches all night, and there will be no finality reached. The rule is that an honorable member indicates that he has a prior amendment before the honorable member announcing another amendment speaks upon it, and not after a long speech has been delivered; and I submit that now it is too late for the honorable member for Bourke to propose his amendment. 2922 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - Is it possible for an honorable member to withdraw an amendment already moved without the consent of the Committee as a whole? 2922 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I am afraid honorable members are not following the proceedings very closely. The amendment proposed by the honorable member for Hunter has not been put from the Chair. The honorable member has made a speech and handed in an amendment, which I am now endeavouring to get before the Committee; but as I understand the honorable member for Bourke had a prior amendment, it is quite a proper thing that I should allow him to state it in order that I may ascertain whether it does precede the proposed amendment of the honorable member for Hunter. 2922 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I am delighted, sir, to hear your direction to the Prime Minister, and to have your protection; and I am surprised that the Prime Minister, after all the kindly things that I have said about him- 2922 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - What is your amendment? 2922 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I have nothing now; I simply sit down. 2922 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It appears now that the honorable member for Bourke has simply been trying to take an advantage of the Chair. I hope such is not the case, though it appears very like it. 2922 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - It is not the case. 2922 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The question is the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Hunter - that certain words proposed to be added be so added. 2922 F4S Parramatta LP Prime Minister and Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The Government cannot accept the amendment. The machinery set up by it. for recording the postal votes of those who are sick and infirm makes it impracticable, and leaves it open to some abuse; but apart altogether from that, the limitation to those who are sick and infirm cannot be accepted by the Government. We do not interpret the postal vote in that way. Since Parliament has placed on the shoulders of the voter the compulsion to enroll, we maintain we are under an obligation, as far as possible, to make his privileges correspond with that obligation. The ideal to be aimed at in all our laws such as this is equal opportunities for voting, as far as we can encompass it. Where in the proposal of the honorable member is there an approximation of equality of privilege as well as of responsibility? 2923 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - You said that the absentee vote was as good as the postal vote? 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - If I am not permitted to speak, I shall have to do something else. I have been insulted several times since I rose. It seems to be quite the thing opposite to hurl insults across the chamber. 2923 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns - You are only getting your own coin back. 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I hope the honorable member for Illawarra will be required to stop his insults. He has been insulting me all day, and I ask the Chairman to protect me. 2923 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - There is an amount of interjecting going on that is really beyond all tolerance by any Chairman. I trust that we shall be able to conduct our proceedings in a more orderly way in view of the complaint of the Prime Minister, and of a complaint I heard also from the opposite side of the Chamber earlier in the evening. Otherwise, I have the Standing Orders to carry out, and I shall not be worthy of my position if I do not do so. I have refrained from taking any extreme step time and again, and I hope it will not be necessary for me to carry the Standing Orders to their furthest, in order that I may secure the attention to which any honorable member speaking is entitled. 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - In a word or two I wish to show why we cannot accept the amendment. There is no need for heat. We claim that the amendment will seriously curtail the postal vote, as we have hitherto known it, and that makes it impossible for the Government to accept it. Where we have compulsion on voters to enroll we have to give them every privilege we can to exercise their votes. If a man is 8, or 9, or 10 miles away from a polling booth we place him under a serious disability, as compared with the man who is 8 or 9 yards away. That is the position in a nutshell. We have no right to lay an equal obligation on people with out in any way endeavouring to put at their disposal an equal privilege. 2923 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - If that is the only objection it could surely be easily remedied. 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - We wish the man in the back country, who is away from the polling booth, to have the privilege of voting reasonably and easily. 2923 KR8 0 0 SHARPE, James Mr Sharpe - What are they doing in Queensland to-day? 2923 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - They are restoring the postal vote. 2923 KR8 0 0 SHARPE, James Mr Sharpe - Not on the same lines as you are trying to do. 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I only wish to say this-- 2923 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Will you enact that justices of the peace shall not be authorized witnesses ? 2923 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I think not, out of consideration for my friends, and out of respect for them, to say nothing more. It is impossible to safeguard the postal vote in the way suggested by practically taking a Returning Officer round the country to collect the votes. It is impracticable to do so. The honorable member has, therefore, submitted a proposal that is absolutely impracticable, and his position would be far more logical, if those are the only conditions under which he will give the postal vote, if he would make up his mind to vote against it. The honorable member is prepared to concede the postal vote, as the honorable member for Bourke is, under impossible and impracticable conditions; and, of course, we cannot accept proposals which are absolutely unworkable, and cannot be carried out. 2923 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- The Prime Minister would lead the Committee to believe that, because enrolment was made compulsory, voting was also in effect made compulsory. He was quite right in asserting that, in a Democracy like this, the facilities for every one entitled to vote to record a vote should be as wide as it is possible to make them with safety ; but the principle of the exercise of the franchise rests entirely on the basis of the vote being cast under supervision. From the very earliest stages of voting it has been recognised that care must be exercised as to the manner in which votes are cast. Care was always taken in any system of voting apart from the supervision of responsible officers within a polling booth, or in the open, before the secrecy of the ballot was established, that no person voted oftener. than he was entitled to vote. I think this Parliament has developed the principle of extending the privilege and facility to vote more than any other Parliament, but abuses crept in. These were corrected by certain legislation, and certain administration, but, in my opinion, they were never totally eliminated, and they are not likely to be eliminated by any legislation. I say it is impracticable to eliminate abuses where we have an extensive system of postal voting. There should be some method of reaching electors who are more than a certain distance away from a polling place. The honorable member for Darling Downs will know that, in Queensland, fifteen years ago, a Liberal Government compelled seventy miners at Opalton to ride 120 miles to exercise their vote, and he will remember the celebrated Bonnavonna polling place to which people were carted from all parts of the colony. That was the way in which the franchise was exercised at that time, and the Labour party were loudest in their condemnation of that practice. The proposition is quite different now. Able-bodied electors, within a reasonable distance of a polling booth, should cast their votes at that polling booth under proper supervision. The sick and invalid - and a person may be invalid and not sick, or may be maimed and incapable of moving or being moved - should have every facility to exercise their franchise. But people in good health, and more particularly males in good health, ought to be compelled to go to the polling booths, because the greater the extent to which they do so, the greater will be the assurance that the franchise will be exercised as it ought to be. I should not like to commit myself to every suggestion which has been made by the honorable member for Hunter, but his amendment is certainly a great improvement on some of the proposals made by the Government, and I regret that they cannot see their way to countenance it, even if they will not accept it exactly in the form in which it is proposed. 2924 KZG Adelaide ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS .- We have had from the Prime Minister this afternoon a statement very different from those made by his party throughout the election campaign, and, in fact, up to the present day. It is now quite clear that the Government desire, not merely to restore voting by post in the case of the sick and the infirm, but to extend it to persons enjoying even the best of health. It is intended that they shall have facilities for voting by post of a character that must necessarily be open to question. Previously all the statements made by the Ministry and their supporters were to the effect that by repealing the postal voting provisions of the Electoral Act we had prevented the sick and the infirm and the mothers of Australia from exercising the franchise. Practically nothing was said of a voting-by-post system which would allow tens of thousands enjoying the very best of health to avail themselves of it if they so desired. An entirely new situation has been sprung upon us by the statement of the Prime Minister that the Government are determined to restore this system because they have in this Chamber, at the present moment, the necessary numbers to enforce their will. It is just as well that the vast difference between their pre-election cry and their utterances to-day should be emphasized. 2924 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - There is no difference whatever, except in the honorable member's imagination. 2924 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 2924 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I do not mind the Prime Minister's interjections. 2924 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I have a right to correct a misrepresentation. 2924 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable gentleman is particularly sensitive to interjections when he is addressing the Committee, but he does not hesitate to interrupt others. Let us look at the situation for a moment. Honorable members opposite can afford to .pay canvassers during an election campaign. 2924 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - I do not think the honorable member can substantiate that statement. 2924 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I accept the honorable member's disclaimer, and will say that honorable members opposite cannot afford to employ paid canvassers. But whether they can or cannot, the fact remains that paid canvassers are persistently working in their behalf. Who pays them, I do not know. They are paid to do certain work, and their work for many weeks prior to an election will be to secure votes. If the postal voting provisions are restored, as the Ministry propose, then these paid canvassers will be able to call on every man and woman within 2 yards, much less 2 miles, of a polling booth, and try to persuade them to sign a statement to the effect that they believe - not that they will - but that they "believe" that they will be more than 5 miles from a polling booth on election day. Those who do that will be able to take advantage of the postal voting provisions of the Act. If honorable members opposite think that is a proper provision to have in our electoral system, well knowing the abuse to which it can be put, let them enforce it. 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - That is the old fallacy of the Opposition - they believe that every one who opposes them is a rogue. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I have not treated the honorable member in that way. 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member is practically treating the electors as being rogues. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I am not. I am simply speaking of the possibilities, and of what the honorable gentleman from his long political experience must know will become actualities. Just prior to an election, when party feeling is high, and when persons can be induced for pay to canvass for votes, they will be able to do what I have said. While "the electors are, in the ordinary sense, innocent of any intention to do wrong, paid canvassers will be able to cajole thousands into taking advantage of these provisions, and if the vote of the individual does not suit the paid canvasser, then we know that it will not be recorded. That is the unfortunate feature of the situation. An innocent person recording his vote by post has to do so in such a way that a paid canvasser must inevitably see how he votes, and under the provisions proposed to be restored, he is to take the ballot-paper from the voter, and is himself supposed to place it in the letter-box. 2925 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The Government itself denounced that particular provision, and is now re-enacting it. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Five days ago the Government held a different view. They were then going on with the Electoral Bill, and, in introducing that measure, the Honorary Minister specifically denounced provisions that are being reenacted under this measure. He denounced them as being unfair and open to corruption, and said they ought not to be retained in the electoral law. The Ministry have suddenly changed their minds. What was but a few weeks ago denounced by the Honorary Minister as unfair and improper and open to corruption is now being forced upon the country. 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We have not time now for political speeches. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable gentleman need not threaten me. 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I do not threaten; I merely warn. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable gentleman does not like my criticism, and so he warns me that if I dare criticise his actions, he will apply the " gag." 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We wish to give honorable members with a bond fide desire to discuss the Bill an opportunity to do so, but we have no time now for political speeches. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable gentleman is at liberty to exercise the power that he possesses. The question of whether my remarks are, or are not, of a political character is merely a matter of opinion, and the honorable member is entitled to warn me, or to threaten me, as the case may be, but while I am permitted to speak, I have the right to say that it is because he objects to my criticism of his action that he warns me that if I persist I shall have the " gag " applied, although I am a representative of the people in this House. It is impossible for me to occupy very much time, since there is a time limit of thirty-five minutes to our speeches in Committee, and it is therefore monstrous for the Attorney-General to suggest, as he does, that I am wasting time. 2925 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member is only repeating what was said over and over again when this question was last debated. 2925 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - My remarks may be distasteful to the honorable member, but I am at liberty to speak while he permits me to do so. According to a member of the Ministry, the provisions that are now being forced upon us do permit of corruption at election time. The amendment submitted by the honorable member for Hunter is a clear indication that he is prepared to remove all the objections that were recently raised as to the prevention of the sick and- the infirm from the exercise of the franchise by the repeal of the postal-voting provisions of the Act. Those were really the only objections raised up to a few minutes ago. The honorable member's amendment clearly indicates his desire to meet them, and there is no doubt that if it were accepted it would be carried by a very large majority. But the very moment that the Opposition meets the arguments on the situation created by the Government side of the House, that very moment Ministers say they will not accept an amendment giving voting facilities to the sick and the infirm. I am justified, even although it may be considered that I am making a political speech, in emphasizing my sincere regret that there should be forced through this Chamber a measure of which, no doubt, advantage can be taken at a critical time, and which will mean that the men who have the money at their disposal - whether they have it themselves or have friends to spend it for them - will be able to secure a voting strength which would otherwise be impossible. 2926 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - An infamous misrepresentation. 2926 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member will withdraw that remark. 2926 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I withdraw it. 2926 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I would point out to the Prime Minister that if I am expected to keep order, particularly in the matter of interjections, I have a right to expect Ministers to assist me in doing so, by setting an example to other portions of the House. 2926 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Apparently it is proposed to extend the postal vote to the healthy community regardless of distance from polling booths, provided they will sign a paper to the effect that they believe they will be so many miles distant on election day, but it is questionable whether a large number who sign the paper will thoroughly understand it in that light. There is a cry that these proposals are entirely for the benefit of country people, and the Prime Minister said that we ought, in the Electoral Act, to give to the country people privileges equal to those given to the people in the cities. I have absolutely no objection. Having resided in a country district for many years, I have full and complete sympathy with those resident therein; but if the Government are so anxious to give the country people facilities, let them increase the number of polling booths by a few thousand. But what a sham and hollow cry is that about equal privileges. They might just as well say that we should give them electric trams in Warrnambool or Horsham, or build a capital city in every State, or take a railway to the door of every individual in the country. The assertion was made merely to pander to the country people, without giving them reasonable facilities. But it is intended to give facilities to exercise the postal vote to persons to whom those facilities should not be given, and that those opportunities should be taken advantage of by paid canvassers at election periods. I regret that the Government will not accept an amendment that clearly indicates our desire to give postal voting facilities to the sick and infirm, whether in the city or the country, but insists on extending them in another direction. 2926 F4S Parramatta LP Prime Minister and Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - The honorable member has not made a correct statement throughout the whole of his speech. I think it is time this came to an end, and therefore move - That the question be now put. Question put. The Committee divided. 37 35 Majority ... ... 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added (Mr. Charlton's amendment) - put. The Committee divided. 35 37 Majority . . . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Mr. Fowler- 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The question now is that the clause be agreed to. 2927 F4S Parramatta LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK .- I move- That the question be now put. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! Will honorable members resume their seats? 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I have an amendment to propose, sir. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I am very sorry, but the Prime Minister had the call, and the question now is that the question be now put. 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher -I do not think that you stated the question. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Yes, I did. 2927 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - I have an amendment to move, sir. 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Committee was not constituted, sir. Honorable members were moving backwards and forwards when you put the question. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I called the Committee to order, and then stated the question ; the Prime Minister rose, and I had no option but to call him. 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I wish to raise a point of order, sir. I submit that it is not good order, either in the House or in Committee, for a question to be put while the mass of honorable members are transferring themselves from one side of the chamber to the other. 2927 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Put the question again, sir. 2927 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - This is a matter of procedure, and even in circumstances like these, when honorable members are a bit heated in their minds, I think that they will see that it is both unwise and undesirable that a question should be put when it is impossible for honorable members to hear distinctly what is said. It is true that you, sir, have stated that you called order. That is not sufficient. I suggest that the question should be put when honorable members on both sides are reasonably attentive. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - If there is any doubt, it is, of course, my duty to state the question again, though I called order before putting the question. The question is, " That the clause be agreed to." Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the question be now put. 2927 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - What becomes of the promises made by the Attorney- General? I shall never again take a promise from the Ministerial bench. It is an absolute lie! 2927 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - I draw attention to the expression of the honorable member for Maribyrnong, and ask that it be withdrawn. 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The expression must be withdrawn. 2927 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I wish to explain what led up to it. The Attorney-General promised several times during the sitting- 2927 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I cannot accept any explanation. 2928 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I am about to withdraw the expression, but, in duty to myself, I should make this explanation. The Attorney-General promised full discussion 2928 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I trust that the honorable member will recognise that the Standing Orders do not permit of the making of an explanation when the withdrawal of a disorderly remark is asked for by the Chair. 2928 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Promises were made, and not kept, and I said that they were lies. I now withdraw the expression complained of. 2928 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I name the honorable member for Maribyrnong for disregarding the direction of the Chair. 2928 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The honorable member withdrew his remark before he was named. 2928 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I heard no withdrawal. Many honorable members interjecting, 2928 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It is impossible for me to hear what is going on. Order ! If the honorable member for Maribyrnong withdrew his remark, I am satisfied. 2928 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I withdrew it. Question - That the question be now put - put. The Committee divided. 36 35 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That clause 2 be agreed to - put. The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Clause agreed to. Question - That the title be the title of the Bill - put. The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority...... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Title agreed to. 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The question is " That the Bill be reported without amendment." 2929 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - I rise to a point of order. During the progress of the debate the Prime Minister made a speech which he concluded by moving " That the question be now put." That seems to me so utterly mean and unworthy a device that I wish to know whether, after an honorable member has made his own speech, he is in order in moving " That the question be now put," and thus preventing other honorable members from speaking? 2929 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I rise to a point of order. I ask that the words " mean and unworthy " be withdrawn. 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Brisbane must withdraw the words to which exception has been taken. 2929 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - Surely the Prime Minister does not know to what I applied those words. I did not apply them to him. 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I took it that the words used by the honorable member were applied to the Prime Minister. 2929 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - I did not apply them to the Prime Minister. May I state my point of order? 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have heard the honorable member's point of order. Has he anything to add? 2929 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - I wish to know if, after having made his own speech, it is in order for an honorable member to move " That the question be now put," and thereby prevent other honorable members from making their speeches? 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Decidedly so. Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the question be now put. 2929 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I desire to make a personal explanation. 2929 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - There is no provision in our Standing Orders which permits of a personal explanation being made at this stage. The question is " That the question be now. put." The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 In division: AYES NOES 2930 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - I submit that, under our Standing Orders, an honorable member is at liberty to make a personal explanation at the conclusion of any honorable member's speech. 2930 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Nothing can be allowed to intervene after the motion has been moved, " That the question be now put." Otherwise, there would be no meaning in the application of the closure. 2930 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - You, sir, have ruled that nothing can be allowed to intervene after the motion has been moved, ' ' That the question be now put." I submit that that is a complete reversal of the order of things. The motion moved by the Prime Minister was an intervention upon an explanation which I desired to make. Therefore, I claim the right to make my explanation now. 2930 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! That cannot be allowed. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the Chairman report the Bill without amendment - put. The Committee divided. 37 36 Majority . . . . 1 In division: AYES NOES 2930 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - In personal explanation, sir, arising out of a statement made by the Prime Minister- 2930 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I cannot allow a personal explanation to be made at this juncture. I must put now the question that I report the Bill without amendment. 2930 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - Can I make an explanation now ? 2930 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member will take his seat. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill reported without amendment. 2930 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I beg to move- 2930 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Prime Minister. Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the report be now adopted. Motion (by Mr. Kelly) proposed - That the question be now put. 2930 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Mr. Speaker- 2930 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The question is that the question be now put. 2931 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Do you, sir, say that we cannot move an amendment at the report stage? 2931 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! I must insist upon silence when the Speaker is on his feet. The honorable member for Ballarat, being a new member of the House, and, perhaps, not being familiar with the rules of procedure- 2931 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - I never thought that we could not move an amendment at this stage. 2931 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 2931 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - He never spoke. 2931 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Barrier is out of order. 2931 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - He never spoke. 2931 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Barrier is again out of order. Disorder arising, 2931 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! There must be silence when the Speaker is on his feet. I shall name the next honorable member who breaks silence by disorderly interruption. I was about to say that, as the honorable member for Ballarat is a new member, out of courtesy to him I will explain the position. The Standing Orders provide that when the closure is moved no debate can take place, and that the question must be forthwith put. The Speaker has no option in the matter. 2931 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - It shows what honorable members on the other side will do when they get the chance. Question - That the question be now put - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the report be now adopted - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Report adopted. Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the Standing Orders be suspended to enable the remaining stages to be passed without delay. 2932 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - I offer my objection to the suspension of the Standing Orders. There is no absolute need for this motion, and I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, whether it does not infringe the order which prohibits the taking of new business after 11 o'clock at night. 2932 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - There is on the business-paper this contingent notice of motion - Contingent on any report being received from a Committee, or on any report being adopted, Mr. Joseph Cook : To move, That the Standing Orders be suspended, to enable the remaining stages to be passed without delay. As to the point taken by the honorable member for Kennedy, the motion to suspend the Standing Orders is not new business. New business would be a proposal relating to a matter not before the House ; the motion relates to a matter which is before the House. 2932 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - On a point of order- Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the question be now put. 2932 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - On a question of order ! Neither rules nor practices have any influence with the Prime Minister. 2932 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The motion for the closure must be put without debate and. forthwith. Question - That the question be now put - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the Standing Orders be suspended - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Standing Orders suspended. Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed - That the Bill be now read a third time. 2933 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- Mr. Speaker- Motion (by Mr. Kelly) proposed - That the question be now put. 2933 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I desired to move that the Bill be read a third time this day six months. You, Mr. Speaker, are taking two speakers in succession from the Government side. 2933 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - When the motion is moved that the question be now put, I have no option, and cannot pay regard to which side a motion comes from. There is no discretion left to the Speaker, who must put the question forthwith, and any member, without being called, is empowered, under the standing order, to move it. Question - That the question be now put - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 In division: AYES NOES 2933 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - We want to give the Leader of the Opposition an opportunity to submit his amendment. 2933 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Speaker says that that cannot be done. I ask you, sir, whether it can be done? 2933 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Even if the call for a division were withdrawn, my decision upon the voices would stand. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question - That the Bill be now read a third time - put. The House divided. 37 36 Majority ... ... 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. 2933 adjournment 2933 Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) pro posed - That the House do now adjourn. 2934 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- What is to he the business to-morrow? 2934 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The other little Bill. 2934 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Which other little Bill? 2934 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I said " Preference." 2934 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I only heard "The other little Bill." 2934 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - That is what he said. 2934 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Did any honorable member hear any more ? 2934 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Yes; everybody over here did. 2934 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Attorney-General said " Preference." 2934 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Prime Minister said it. Question resolved in the affirmative. 2934 23:43:00 House adjourned at 11.43p.m.