1913-11-12 5 1 0 REPS 3058 0 HouseofRepresentatives. 1913-11-12 Mr. Speakertook the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 3058 Questions 3058 Cadets 3058 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - I wish to know from the Prime Minister whether, in view of the hardship which is caused throughout Australia by some of the provisions of the Defence Act relating to cadets, he can say when the Government intends to introduce an amending Bill to allow the sons of widows who are the sole support of their mothers exemption from drill? 3058 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall be glad if the honorable member will give notice of the question; I am not prepared to answer it at once. It raises a series of very important considerations, and will require to be looked into most carefully. 3058 3058 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Some time ago the honorable member for Maribyrnong asked me a question regarding the payment made to officers of the police force for services rendered during the recent election. The Chief Electoral Officer reports - In connexion with the elections in 1910, the police acted as doorkeepers at the larger polling booths, and those who were engaged received 10s. each from the Divisional Returning Officers. In connexion with the referendums, 1911, the police authorities in Victoria objected to constables acting as doorkeepers, but agreed to those who were doing ordinary police duty at the booths receiving a meal allowance of 2s. 6d. each, which was paid through the Police Department. A similar arrangement was observed in connexion with the last elections. The payment of such meal allowance has to be made through police authorities, who have not yet submitted their account, but it is expected in the next few days. 3058 3058 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I wish to know whether the Government has decided to reimburse the Government of New South Wales all the expenditure incurred in the active quarantine in that State during the recent small-pox outbreak? 3058 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not know what is being done. 3058 miscellaneous 3058 JX9 Kalgoorlie 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - I desire to make a personal explanation. In a newspaper, published in Melbourne, yesterday there is a letter signed by Mr. Hungerford, the general manager of the Western Electrical Company of Australia Limited. He makes the statement that I am reported to have said that the company deliberately swindled the Commonwealth out of £5,900, that action was taken, and that the whole amount was recovered by the Commonwealth. I say that that is absolutely true. 3058 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is entitled to read the extracts in connexion with a personal explanation. 3058 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - The company deliberately swindled the Commonwealth out of £5,900. 3058 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Surely this is not a personal explanation. 3058 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr FRAZER - It is a personal explanation, because an attack has been made on me. The company kept the sum that I have mentioned in a suspense account for about five years before distributing it among its shareholders, its excuse being, when the facts were made known by its late accountant giving information to the Department, that it had not been called' on to pay the money. The ex-Prime Minister knows that I asked him to call for a special report upon the matter from the Auditor-General, which was done. Mr. Hungerford says that eventually a claim was made, which the company found to its surprise that the departmental officers were unable to substantiate in any way from their records; but, although the company was under no obligation to assist the Department, it placed its books and records at the disposal of the officials, and after they had satisfied themselves as to the amount they considered to be due, the company paid it. Those statements are quite true, but the company knew that the Minister of Trade and Customs had the power to take its books if the company had not placed them at our disposal. The Commonwealth owes the company nothing, so far as that is concerned. I certainly intended to have the books taken from the company if they were not made available to the Department. Mr. Hungerford also says that if the conduct of the company had been as I asserted, I should have initiated a prosecution against it, and that the company would have gladly availed itself of the opportunity to have the facts publicly sifted. I tell Mr. Hungerford that I took counsel's advice, and was informed that, while there was no doubt that a criminal act had been committed, it was doubtful whether, under the circumstances, a jury could be got to convict. Mr. Hungerford can take that statement with my compliments. I placed an embargo on the company, saying that I would not deal with thieves, and that it was not to be considered as a tenderer for Commonwealth supplies during my terra of office. This Government has lifted that embargo. 3059 L1R Balaclava LP Postmaster-General 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - I did not intend to reply to the honorable member if he had not concluded his remarks by saying, " This Government are to blame for lifting it." 3059 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Does the Minister desire to make a personal explanation ? 3059 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - I do; but I wish to go a little further and explain the facts, and for that purpose I ask that I may be given leave to make a statement. 3059 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It is not in order to reply to a personal explanation, but if the Minister desires to make a statement to the House. I ask : Is it the pleasure of the House that the Postmaster-General have leave to make a statement? Honorable Members . - Hear, hear. 3059 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - When tenders were called for the supply of certain goods to the Department, one of the conditions was that if there was any increase in the duty, the Department was to pay the increased duties to the tenderer, and if there were any lowering of the duties, the tenderer was to be called upon to refund to the Department the amount of the duty overpaid. 3059 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - That is in accordance with the Customs laws. 3059 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - That is so. In this particular case the Department overlooked the fact that the Customs Act contained this provision, and did not call upon the company referred to, and nine other tenderers for the sale of goods to the Department, to refund duty overpaid. In this case the honorable thing for the firm in question would have been to have informed the Department that they had received this money in excess, but they were not legally bound to do so. In the majority of cases we have sharp business men to deal with, and they stand on their legal rights. When the Department, through the information given by the accountant who had left the employ of these people, called upon them to refund the duty overpaid, and the amount was fixed by an inspection of their books, they did refund the overpaid duty. In five other cases claims were thereupon made from other tenderers, in one instance for over £1,000, and in others for smaller sums. Some of the money has been repaid, but four companies have not yet paid up, and I have given instructions that legal proceedings be taken against them for the recovery of the overpaid duty. As a matter of fact, within the strict legal terms of the contract, it was the duty of the Department to call upon these people to refund the money. 3059 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - But they knew they were keeping it wrongfully. 3059 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - As a strict matter of law they were entitled to retain it until they were asked to refund it. But what happened so far as the Department is concerned? When the company in question was debarred from tendering, and fresh tenders were sought from firms supplying similar goods, the best tender received was between £6,000 and £7,000 in excess of the prior tender by this company. In another case, I believe that the difference amounted to £12,000. 3059 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - What percentage would that be ? 3059 L1R 0 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - It would be 25 per cent., probably. I found that the Department would be at a loss of probably £20,000 if I had continued the embargo on these people. It is our duty in this, as in every other Department of the Public Service, to watch these matters very carefully ourselves. We call for tenders, we have a standard, and it is our duty to protect ourselves, and see that we get what we are asking for. When the embargo was taken off this firm, the prices for the goods came down something like 20 or 25 per cent. Although in the circumstances this firm probably deserved some punishment for their sharp practice, though it might be characterized otherwise as looseness on our part, I was, by removing the embargo, saving the Department in connexion with two tenders alone probably £20,000. 3062 Questions 3059 3059 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Will you permit me to draw attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that this morning when I received proofs of the Hansard report of my remarks yesterday, I found that there had been taken out of them statements made by another member, to which I had replied. The other member may, conscientiously, and in keeping with the forms, correct the report of his remarks, and his corrections, when made, may lead to the impression that my remarks have little or no sense or connexion. Would it. not be possible, under the circumstances, for members to have the privilege of seeing what is interpolated into the reports of their speeches, particularly when the interpolations are in the form of statements to which they have replied. 3060 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I may say that my speech is made wholly unintelligible by the omission from it of statements that were made during the time that I was on my feet. 3060 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I shall make inquiries of the Principal Parliamentary Reporter in regard to the matter. 3060 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - May I ask you, sir, if it is a fact that you have given instructions that all your rulings are to be taken out of the proofs submitted to members ? 3060 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Certainly. I claim the right of every honorable member of this House to see my uncorrected proofs before they are put into the hands of other honorable members. May I call attention to the danger which could arise from a wrong use of incorrect proofs, and which might affect any honorable member. If the uncorrected proofs of members' speeches are to be put into the hands of other honorable members, there will be no sense at all in any honorable member being permitted to revise the report of his speech, to correct errors, before it appears in Hansard, and if the uncorrected report of the Speaker's remarks is to go before other honorable members, the uncorrected reports of every member's speech may also go before other members. The Speaker should not be placed under a disability under which no other honorable member suffers. If the rough and uncorrected proofs, especially of important rulings, which may contain errors, coming from the hands of the printer, are to be put into the hands of other honorable members, then neither he nor any member of the House will be safe from subsequent misrepresentation. 3060 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - A few mouths ago you gave a ruling with which I entirely agree. Upon that ruling I desire to ask you a question. Your ruling was to the effect that no honorable member had the right to see the uncorrected proof of another honorable member's speech. The question I desire to ask is : By what right, and by whose authority, the Hansard staff supplied you with an uncorrected proof of my utterances and replies to questions by you to me? Do you claim a right which is denied to other honorable members? 3060 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - In the hands of the Speaker, and in the hands of the President, the whole of this question of proofs really rests. I do not get the proofs of other honorable members' speeches, except in so far as they may raise questions upon which I have to intervene. 3060 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - But uncorrected matter, sir? 3060 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! I have never received uncorrected proofs of other honorable members' speeches, nor have I ever sought to get them in the ordinary way, except where they have been included in my own proof sheets as relating to something in connexion with which I have had to intervene. It would be necessary in a case of that kind for me to see what happened immediately before I intervened that I might know whether my own report was correct. 3060 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - You have seen uncorrected reports of my remarks. 3060 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The honorable member should be careful, or he will be turned out. 3060 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! For instance, an honorable member may raise a point of order, which I have to decide. I could not possibly decide the point of order without knowing what it was. Very often an interjection, or perhaps two or three, are interpolated by other honorable members altogether. These interjections could not be excised from the proofs. When I spoke of an honorable member not having the right to have access to another honorable member's uncorrected proofs, I wanted to say that in this matter it is my duty as Speaker to safeguard every honorable member of the House from the liability of his uncorrected proofs being brought in evidence against him when he has not an opportunity himself of revising them and correcting matter which may have erroneously got in, or may have been erroneously reported. In this connexion I may say that this is particularly necessary at the present time, because I have received an intimation that the Hansard Staff find it increasingly difficult to accurately report honorable members speeches, owing to the amount of interruptions that take place, and even their trained ears are not to be absolutely relied upon to give a faithful report of what has taken place in such circumstances. 3061 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I should like to ask you, sir, one question : On this very important matter, have you departed from the custom of the past? 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have not departed, so far as I am aware, from what has been the practice all the time. 3061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - My proof has been altered, I understand, by the direction of Mr. Speaker. If you, sir, did not do it, I hope that you will be good enough to tell us who did it, because nobody would act in such a matter without your authority. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - So far as I am aware I have given no instruction to alter anything in the proof of what the honorable member said. 3061 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - No, sir, but you have taken out several rulings of your own, which has altered the position. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - That is a different matter entirely.I have taken out matter of my own, but have not altered matter of the honorable member. That exactly brings me back to the point at which I started, and that is, that there is no reason why I should be placed under a disability which I would allow no other honorable member to lie under. 3061 personal explanation 3061 L0I North Sydney 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Colonel RYRIE - In regard to the proceedings of last night, I find that it is not made clear in the reports in the press, and in the minds of people, that in transgressing as I did - and I admit that I transgressed - I was subject to very great provocation. I want to make that clear. 3061 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - So was I yesterday. 3061 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Colonel RYRIE - There were hurled at me epithets which would have incited any man to take the action which I did. I might, sir, draw your attention to this fact, that, although the honorable member for Melbourne Ports insisted that I should withdraw my statement before he withdrew his, after I voluntarily got up and withdrew my statement, he did not withdraw anything. 3061 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Yes, he did. 3061 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - He did it first. 3061 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Colonel RYRIE - The honorable member for Melbourne Ports insisted that I should get up first. There were a great many epithets hurled at me from round the Chamber which have never been withdrawn, and one in particular imputed cowardice to me. That, I think, was very unfair. I was even called a " damned scoundrel." according to the newspapers. I object to an epithet of that sort being hurled at me, because it is very unfair. I fail to see where the imputation of cowardice could have any weight. The honorable member for Maranoa, as big a man as myself, was very persistent with his epithets. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member must not refer to that. 3061 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Colonel RYRIE - I do not like to allow a charge of cowardice to rest on me. 3061 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - If you want a demonstration, come upstairs. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3061 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Colonel RYRIE - I would like to have that matter set at rest quietly and dispassionately. I suggest to honorable members that if they would select six of the biggest or the best men they have, and come quietly- 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Colonel RYRIE. - Let me finish my sentence. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3061 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - Here you are, sir, I'm on ! 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3061 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - Here you are ! 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! 3061 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - Here you are ! 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Will the honorable member for Hunter be seated? 3061 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I want, sir, to take a point of order. 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Will honorable members maintain order? 3061 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - Melbourne Ports- 3061 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Will the honorable member for Hunter be seated for a moment. Every day I have to make an appeal which it should not be necessary for the Speaker to make. My position is difficult enough ordinarily, in all conscience, as honorable members must admit. This continual interruption of the business by disorderly interjections, and by audible remarks all over the chamber, prevents me from hearing or knowing what is going on. The honorable member for Hunter, I understand, has risen to a point of order; but I have not been able to hear one word he has said on account of the interruption. This must cease, else I shall take other action. 3062 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I desire to ask,' sir, whether the honorable member for North Sydney, under cover of a personal explanation, is justified in this deliberative Assembly in asking that six honorable members from this side should go, one after the other, to meet him, so that he could deal with them. 3062 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - That is cowardice again. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - No. The honorable member for North Sydney, if he did say so, was certainly out of order. At the same time, I again emphasize the importance of honorable members remaining quiet so that I can hear what an honorable member is saying. Otherwise I am not able to intervene. The honorable member for North Sydney would not be in order in proceeding on those lines, because a personal explanation must relate to something in which he had been misrepresented or misunderstood, or to something that lie lias said which has not been made sufficiently clear. 3062 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I ask, sir, that the honorable member for North Sydney be called upon to withdraw the statement. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! I understand that the honorable member for North Sydney, in making a personal explanation, made some statement - I do not know what - which has been regarded as offensive. If he did so, I ask him to withdraw the statement. Colonel Ryrie. - One thing I omitted, sir, in my personal explanation was to draw your attention to the aggravation to which I was subjected. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order 1 Before the honorable member proceeds with his personal explanation, I ask him to withdraw the reflection, or something objectionable which he is stated to have said regarding other members. 3062 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - It was a breach of the privileges of the House. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! I ask the honorable member to withdraw any offensive remarks before he proceeds. Colonel RYRIE.- Very well, sir, I withdraw any offensive remarks, but honorable members did not know whether I was going to ask them to come and have a cup of tea or not. My complaint, sir, is that the epithets " hangman " and " executioner " were hurled at me, and in the circumstances I think that the provocation was very great. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I certainly understood that the honorable member for Melbourne Ports did withdraw the words he had used - that was my impression. But if the honorable member for North Sydney knew that words of an offensive character had not been withdrawn by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, the time for him to draw my attention to the fact was then, and not now. The question cannot now be raised. 3062 Questions 3062 3062 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I wish to ask you, sir, some questions regarding the elimination of certain remarks of yours from the proofs of other members' speeches. Firsts has such a custom been adopted by any predecessor of yours ? Second, are you aware that honorable members are allowed a certain number of copies of their proofs to be forwarded to those whom they may deem it advisable to send them to, and the proofs, mutilated as they are to-day, would be totally useless and defeat the privilege which is allowed to honorable members ? Hence we are put under a disability, which I am sure you will not desire us to be under when you realize the effect of your action. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - In regard to the first question, I do not think that in the history of this or any other Parliament there is a precedent for the proceedings which have taken place so far as the Speaker's intervention is concerned. In this case, amidst great scenes of disorder, tumult at times, the Speaker is called on suddenly to give a ruling or to interpose in relation to some matter that has come up- 3062 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I object. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Which involves him making a statement. 3062 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I protest against such a statement from the Chair. 3062 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! In the course of his remarks he may make a statement which, in the circumstances, may not be as clear as he would have put it in a calmer atmosphere. If honorable members will look at the Hansard proof, they will see that very frequently interjections come in, and that there is sometimes an indication that interjections are so numerous that they are not taken down, an intimation that there was disorder, or that several members were interjecting. In those circumstances it would be grossly unfair to the Speaker, or to any other honorable member, to have uncorrected Hansard proofs circulated over the country or put in the hands of other honorable members. Although it is the practice, and it is allowable, for honorable members to have a certain number of copies of revises, it is not the practice to give them uncorrected proofs for the purpose of general circulation, unless they are satisfied that the proofs do not need correction. There is, I understand, only one uncorrected proof in the first instance sent to an honorable member for his correction. He may correct the proof, or he may not, as he pleases, and then, on application, he is entitled to get a certain number of revises. 3063 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr MCDONALD - I would like to know, sir, who authorized the sending out of the proof which I hold in my hand? This morning a proof was sent to me, and it is simply impossible to say what it means, owing to the peculiar way in which it is pasted together. There was a good deal of interjecting on the opposite side while I was speaking, and the result was that I had to listen, and then to reply, and thus get something in. If I have not an opportunity to see what I was replying to, how can I correct the proof or say whether it is correct or not? This is the first time in the thirteen years' history of this Parliament that this sort of thing has been done. I would like honorable members to see this proof that I hold in my hand. The speech is. chopped off after a couple of lines. Then there is a break, and then follows another couple of lines, which, in their turn, are succeeded by another break. Under the circumstances, it is not possible to do anything with these proofs. During my thirteen years' experience in this Parliament, I have never seen a proof like it. I wish to know upon whose authority this change has been instituted. 3063 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I should like to make some reference to this matter. I have received a similar proof. 3063 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! Is the Prime Minister about to ask a question ? 3063 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Very well, I shall raise the question later if you will not allow me to do it now. 3063 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Prime Minister will see that if I permit him to intervene when a question has been put to me, every other honorable member may claim a similar right. It is irregular to ask a series of questions in regard to the same matter. I will make inquiries into the question which has been raised., and ascertain what has been done. 3063 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I wish to ask you, sir, if you will be good enough io see that the old practice is reverted to? I confess that my proof was entirely unintelligible, and, moreover, it consisted of a series of slips cut out from somewhere and pasted on a whole sheet. It is impossible, I submit, for an honorable member to intelligently review his own speech in the absence of the matter which has preceded it. I confess I did not think over the matter at the time. I thought that perhaps the position was one peculiar to myself. I do submit that it will impose a disability upon honorable members, and will seriously impair the value of Hansard as a permanent record, if that practice be persisted in. 3063 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Why not regard the matter as one of privilege, and settle it now? 3063 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Is it not better to have the thing settled without submitting a motion in the House? My honorable friends opposite must recollect that all this trouble arises out of their seeing and making use of other people's proofs when they had no right to do so. I ask you, sir, to take action with a view to remedying this matter. 3063 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I can only say that it is my desire to meet the wishes of honorable members. I desire to safeguard their rights and privileges, and to protect them from having their uncorrected Hansard proofs brought up in evidence against them - a course of procedure which is against all the previous practice of the House and of this Parliament. I do not know what has been done in regard to this particular matter, and I can only inquire into it with a view to seeing how far it has proceeded, and direct the attention of the Chief of the Hansard Staff to it. 3063 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I join with the Prime Minister in his desire that the old system should be reverted to. I join with him and with Mr. Speaker in affirming that so far as practicable the unrevised Hansard proofs ought not to be permitted to go beyond the hands of honorable members, so long as they are white proofs, as between the member who spoke and the member who intervened- 3064 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - And Mr. Speaker also. 3064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - And Mr. Speaker, too. I suggest that as they are only proofs- 3064 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Honorable members have no more right to use them than they have to repeat a private conversation. It amounts to the same thing. 3064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - With all due respect to the view which you, sir, have expressed, I suggest that any ruling which you may give, and which intervenes in the speech of an honorable member, should be incorporated in the uncorrected Hansard proof of that honorable member. It should be recognised by honorable members that Mr. Speaker's unrevised proofs cannot be used against him any more than a private member's unrevised proofs can be used against him. When once we have reached that sensible point we shall understand each other a great deal better. 3064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I shall certainly have regard to the wishes of honorable members. In the words of Mr. Speaker Lenthall, " I have neither eyes to see nor ears to hear, save only as the House shall direct." 3064 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - Did I understand you, sir, to say in regard to alterations made in the form of the distribution of Hansard proofs, that you did not know who gave the instruction for those alterations ? 3064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member did not rightly understand me to say that. I am not aware that honorable members' speeches have been mutilated by the form in which the Hansard proofs are distributed, and I gave no instructions in regard to that matter. I have already said that I will have a consultation with the Chief of the Hansard Staff in regard to the whole matter, and will endeavour, as far as possible, to meet the wishes of honorable members. 3064 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - May I be permitted, sir, to direct your attention to a few remarks which I made on Friday last, when, in the course of a seven minutes' speech, you gave seven rulings. I propose to hand the proof to you, and I ask that it should be returned, because it will be an interesting exhibit for a museum. At the same time I desire to know who gave the instructions that this alteration should be made in the method of distributing the Hansard proofs ? 3064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Before I can give a definite reply I must see the proof. If the honorable member will hand it to me. I shall be glad. Later : 3064 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I am sorry to trouble you again, Mr. Speaker, but there is amongst my honorable friends some misapprehension regarding the reply which you gave in reference to the alteration of the form of distributing Hansard proofs. Are you in a position to say who gave the order to alter what had been the custom and practice up to the occurrence of a certain incident a few days ago. If you are not in a position to give us the information, will you give the House an opportunity to investigate from where the order came ? 3064 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - So far as any instructions given by me are concerned, they related only to my own speeches. I have already said that I shall consult the Chief of the Hansard Staff, and when I have done so I shall be in a position to inform the House of the matter. I shall take the earliest opportunity to consult with him. 3064 3064 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST - I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Speaker's statement earlier in the sitting, he has any objection to removing the embargo which was placed on the honorable member for Ballarat yesterday? 3064 3064 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - On the 15th October last the honorable member for Corio asked the following question - Will the Postmaster-General obtain a report as to the number of country telephone lines erected in Victoria under the guarantee system on which a loss to the Department has occurred, and in respect to which the guarantees have had to be enforced? The honorable member for Herbert also asked that similar information be furnished in regard to the other States. The desired information has now been obtained, and is as follows - New South Wales, 37; Victoria, 32 ; Queensland, 12 ; South Australia, 4; Western Australia, 2; Tasmania, 5. 3065 3065 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The honorable member for Batman recently put a question in respect of the publication of a compendium ©f the Regulations under the Defence Act. The reply is as follows: - It is considered that such a course is hardly advisable at the present time in view of the fact that during the transition period of the Defence Scheme two sets of regulations have to be kept in force, the one applicable to the voluntarily enlisted men, and the other to those serving under Part XII. of the Act. Under these circumstances, the regulations can hardly be otherwise than bulky, but when it is possible to consolidate the Commonwealth Military and Universal Training Regulations it is considered that much of the difficulty pointed out by Mr. Brennan will be overcome. A manual of offences and penalties under the Act and regulations is, however, being prepared now. While this manual could not be considered to be a compendium of all the regulations, seeing that it only deals with offences and penalties, it is thought that same will contain a good deal of information in a concise form which should be useful. 3065 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - I desire to ask the Prime Minister -whether it is the intention of the Government to restore the right of this House to challenge the life of the Government by the old constitutional method of a no-confidence motion? 3065 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - All that I have to say is that that right has never been taken away from this House, and that it seems to me- to be exercised every hour of every day that we are here. Later: 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - I wish to ask the Attorney-General a question concerning at matter of constitutional law. Will he say whether there is any precedent in the British Empire for the action of the Government in preventing a no-confidence debate being continued to a finish? 3065 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I feel sure that the honorable member, with his long parliamentary experience, must know that a question of this kind can only be addressed properly to the head of the Government. 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - I wish to put to the Prime Minister a question that I put to the Attorney-General. Is there any precedent in the British Empire for the action of the Government in preventing a no-confidence debate- 3065 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member has already asked that question, or a question of the same character, two or three times. 3065 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The Attorney-General told the honorable member to direct his question to the head of the Government. 3065 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Then I beg the honorable member's pardon. I did not know that the Attorney-General had done so. 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - The question I desire to put to the Prime Minister is whether there is any precedent in the British Empire for the action of the Government in preventing a no-confidence debate being continued to a finish? 3065 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - As my honorable friends opposite are constantly claiming credit for making precedents, I should think that they would therefore appreciate our action on this occasion fi we have made one. 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - It shows what a fraud you are. 3065 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs a question without notice-- 3065 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH Cook - Will the honorable member allow me to interrupt him on a point of order? This kind of thing is beginning again to-day. I made a reply to the question put by the honorable member for Hindmarsh, and he immediately called out, " It shows what a fraud you are." I require those words to be withdrawn. 3065 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Prime Minister desires that an expression used by the honorable member for Hindmarsh shall be withdrawn, and I ask that the honorable member withdraw it. 3065 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - I withdraw the words, Mr. Speaker. 3065 3065 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD - Has the Prime Minister yet received the report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the railway gauges of Australia, and, if so, will he state what steps are being taken by the Government to invite consideration of the Committee's recommendations by the various States? 3065 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall be glad if the honorable member will give notice of his question. I may say that the recommendations of the Committee are available, and are of the most valuable character. They appear to bring the question within the region of practical politics. I am only awaiting a favorable opportunity to thoroughly investigate the whole matter, with a view, I hope, to future parliamentary action. 3066 3066 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - There is in this morning's newspapers a report to the effect that two postal officials have been appointed, with authority to proceed to Great Britain and the United States of America, to make a special investigation into telegraphic and telephonic matters. It is only a few years since Mr. Hesketh made very exhaustive inquiries in the same direction. I desire to ask the Postmaster-General whether Mr. Hesketh's inquiries and recommendations have been found useless, and what special qualifications the two officers have for the appointment they have received? 3066 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE - The improvements in telephonic matters, in the United States of America more particularly, are so rapid that it is necessary for us to keep pace with them. The information obtained by Mr. Hesketh was of great value, and advantage has been taken of it. The gentlemen who are to make these inquiries are two of the most competent young officers in the Department. 3066 3066 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - The Premier of Victoria - Mr. Watt - has published a splendid speech, bearing upon Australia, which was made by Governor Adams, one of the visiting Commissioners from America. I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether he will request Mr. Watt to supply copies for distribution amongst honorable members of this Parliament? 3066 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I shall be very glad to do so. 3066 3066 KGG 0 0 HANNAN, Joseph Mr HANNAN - I desire to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether he has made any inquiries regarding the charges made by the Western Australian Government for the inspection of potatoes - a matter which was brought under his notice recently by the honorable member for Ballarat - and whether any action has been taken by his Department? 3066 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - A despatch was immediately forwarded to the Government of Western Australia, but I am not aware that any reply has yet been received. If the honorable member will give notice of his question, or put it again to-morrow, I shall be glad to give him a more complete reply. 3066 3066 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER On Friday last, the Prime Minister intimated to this House that he would not reply to questions on account of a vote of censure on the Government having been moved. I wish to ask the honorable gentleman what has since occurred that enables him to do today what he refused to do on Friday last? 3066 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK I do not wish to appear discourteous to the honorable member, but I shall decline to answer any more questions on the subject. 3066 motion 3066 3065 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I have received from the honorable member for Adelaide a letter, which reached me yesterday, but which I have not had an opportunity to bring before the House before. The letter reads— Dear Mr Speaker, During the proceedings in the House of Representatives on Friday last, two points of order were submitted for your consideration in respect of standing order 119. In each case you ruled against the point raised. I then submitted another point for your consideration, but before I had concluded my remarks you were pleased to say that my contention was " merely another way of submitting a point upon which you had ruled, and an attempt to get behind your ruling." Such words were a serious reflection upon my conduct and knowledge of the Standing Orders. My point was, and is, that " a certain motion having been interrupted by standing order 119, the ' Orders of the Day' must then be taken in rotation unless the House otherwise orders." I contended that it was at that moment competent for the House to order that something other than considering the Orders of the Day in rotation should be done. Of that there can be no doubt. In the circumstances, I respectfully request that you, in equal public manner, withdraw the reflection you placed upon me. Faithfully yours, E. A. ROBERTS. I wish to explain that when I said that what the honorable member was doing was only another way of getting behind a ruling already given, I did not intend' in any way to reflect upon the honorable member himself. I should be very sorry indeed to reflect intentionally upon any honorable member. I merely used terms which I find have been used very frequently by other occupants of the Chair. I assure the honorable member, and I take this opportunity to state publicly, that I had no intention of reflecting personally upon himself. Later : 3067 KZG Adelaide ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS Permit me to thank you, sir, for reading the letter I was privileged to send you, and for your generosity in withdrawing what I deemed to be a reflection on myself. You evidently omitted to mention, however, that the point of order I raised was a good and valid one, and must stand. 3067 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I can assure the honorable member that I omitted nothing from his letter. 3067 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS I do not suggest that. I claim that the point of order I raised last week was a good and valid one, and must necessarily be upheld. The Hansard report would indicate that the point I raised could not be upheld and sustained by you; but I am confident that, after thinking the matter over, you will agree that it is a good one. 3067 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I am afraid that that question does not arise at the present time, nor am I called upon to express an opinion as to whether the point was a good and valid one. I expressed my opinion at the time, but, unfortunately, in language which the honorable member construed to be a reflection on himself; and I now wish to disclaim any intention of the kind. 3067 Questions 3067 3067 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER I s the Minister of Trade and Customs aware that recently a doctor and a nurse have been alleged to be suffering from small-pox in the quarantine area, although they are reported as vaccinated ? In view of this fact, and, therefore, of the futility of vaccination, will the Minister now endeavour to remove the embargo on the people of Sydney? 3067 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM I have not any such knowledge, but, as the honorable member states that such is the fact, I shall call for immediate inquiries in order to ascertain whether the circumstances are as he alleges 3067 3067 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Can the Minister of Trade and Customs inform us whether any of the persons who owe the Commonwealth a certain amount of money for sugar Excise have paid, and, if so, how many, and how much ? 3067 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM Nothing ; has been paid, but the whole matter is receiving the attention of the Administration at the present time. 3067 3067 KR8 0 0 SHARPE, James Mr SHARPE Has the Minister of Trade and Customs obtained any information in regard to the Beef Trust now operating in Queensland, and, if so, what is the nature of that information? I should further like to know whether inquiries re being made in other States in view of reports to the effect that the Beef Trust has also started operations elsewhere? 3067 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM Inquiries are being made in Queensland, and in other States, but the information obtained cannot al this stage be disclosed. 3067 3059 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer I s the Postmaster-General in a position to inform the House when we may expect the Accountant's report dealing with the different branches of the Post and Telegraph Department? 3066 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE I have a report from the Accountant with reference to the balance-sheets. That report was ready at the end of last month, but the difficulty is that the Government Printer has so much in hand that he experiences great trouble in printing the document for presentation to the House. I hope, however, to have the report ready for presentation on Friday or Tuesday next. 3067 adjournment 3067 3067 3.35 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I desire, according to notice given yesterday, to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz.: - " That in the opinion of this House the Commonwealth Government should draw the attention of the British Government to the state of affairs existing in the New Hebrides." Five honorable members having risen in their places, Question proposed. 3068 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON I do not intend to discuss this question at length, because, in my opinion,, very few words are necessary to show the Minister of External Affairs the necessity for a thorough investigation in reference to affairs as we find them in the New Hebrides at the present time. I presume that quite a number of honorable members, if not all, are in possession of certain incidents, and more than incidents, that have occurred in this very important group of islands. It appears, from general complaints, that the dual control is not at all satisfactory, at any rate to the British residents. As to the poor and unfortunate natives, while we make a boast that there are no slaves under the British flag, I am afraid that investigation into the treatment of those people in the New Hebrides would disclose the fact that a large number of persons, apparently, are engaged in what we may term the slave trade. From a document I have in my hand, I learn— By the Joint Convention of 1906, the New Hebrides were brought under dual control of Great Britain and France. (The Condominium was proclaimed in Vila on the 2nd December, igo7, and since then the British and French flags have waved side by side over the Islands.. Each Power has its own Resident Commissioner, with his administrative staff, while the administration of justice is placed in the hands of the Joint Court. This Court consists of three Judges, a President, who is nominated by the King of Spain, and a British and a French Judge. The Public Prosecutor is a Spaniard, and the Registrar is a Dutchman, as is also the Natives' Advocate. The other officials consist of an equal number of British and French. It is very evident that there has been an endeavour to enlist the services of quite a number of people belonging to different nationalities. Many startling things have been stated, but I do not propose to repeat or deal with many, in view of the fact that this deliberative assembly is part and parcel of the Empire, and I have no desire to be the means of raising complications. The New Hebrides question is a very important one to the Commonwealth. Recently one of the biggest events in the commercial and, I might say, maritime history of the world has come about. I refer to the opening of the Panama Canal. Undoubtedly, with the fleets of the various nationalities passing through that canal from one ocean to the other, the New Hebrides group of islands, situated as they are on the direct route between America and Australia, will become more and more important and of greater value to the Commonwealth. However, I am not dealing with this subject from the aspect of territorial acquisition. It has been said on fairly good authority that the British Government would be very glad to hand over their portion of the control of the islands to the Commonwealth. On the other hand, there is a statement which comes from a French source, that there is a very great desire on the part of the people of France - o r a section of them, at any rate - t o obtain complete control over the whole group of islands. As I have said, I am not going to talk about the international aspect of the matter, or to discuss it from the point of the acquisition of further territory, though it is quite likely that a little later on we shall be called upon in this Parliament to discuss that important topic; but what I do say is that as the British Government are partly responsible for the manner in which the natives of these islands are treated, it is incumbent upon any Parliament with British instincts to take up some stand against the treatment meted out to these islanders. There is what is termed " illegal recruiting." I can quote many cases to show how cruelly and how dastardly some of the natives are treated, but I shall confine myself to one case, in. order not to take up the time of honorable members— In October, 19,12, a Tanna man, called Neai, proceeded against M. Debechade, of Vila, in the Joint Court, on the charge of having recruited his (Neai's) wife, without her husband's consent, about August, 1910. He protested to the captain at the time, but the only reply he received was, " The woman in question is not reported on board my ship as a recruit. I am only going to take her to Vila to explain the missionary matter before the Government." But the woman nevertheless was taken to Noumea. Neai went to Vila twice to protest. Protests were also made in 'Noumea, Paris, and London, but without avail. On 15th February, 191a, the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies wrote as follows " His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris has received instructions from the Foreign Office to make urgent representations to the French Government with regard to this case, and to request them to do all that is in their power to insure the speedy return of the man's wife." On the 4th October, 1912, the Court decided that it was incompetent, on the ground that the breach of the Convention was alleged to have been committed before the inauguration of the Court, and that, as .the woman Yfttehe was now in New Caledonia, the claim should be brought before the Court of that Colony. Mr. Jacomb, a lawyer residing in these islands, who is particularly friendly with the natives, and whose advice is invariably given in their best interests, when he was fighting for this poor, unfortunate, defenceless woman, protested. He persisted in his protests and appeals, and in about July, 1912, she was ordered by the French authorities to be repatriated. But although she was then brought to Tanna, she was again recruited in the same ship without being landed. A few months later, after two years of illegal detention, Yatehe was actually returned to her husband on Tanna, but she was suffering from a foul disease, contracted in Noumea. These are strong statements, but they are made in respect to defenceless women. It appears to me that if any man desires to indulge in the slave trade, or to treat these poor, unfortunate people in the way some coloured people were treated in years gone by in British communities, whether the Government concerned is French, Russian, or auy other, it is the right of the Commonwealth Parliament, seeing that we are so closely situated to these islands, and seeing that, though an Australian Legislature, we are a British Parliament who believe in British traditions being maintained, and especially in the protection of these men and women, to raise a very serious protest indeed. There is further evidence of exceptional cruelty. It appears from information that I have been able to avail myself of that there are commanders or captains of small boats trading in these waters from island to island who do their best to coax these natives to go on their boats when they are lying in harbor, or close to the shore, and who, as soon, as they get a sufficient number of natives on board, weigh anchor and take them away. I shall read an account of the inhuman treatment meted out to a poor, unfortunate native who was engaged by a Frenchman— Cases do now and again reach the Joint Court. Such a case was that of M. Boulerand, of Uripiv. This man seized one of his labourers, tied has hands and feet behind his back, and suspended him from a rafter in such a way that he just touched the ground faCe downward. Mrs. Gillan, the missionary's wife, went and pleaded with the Frenchman to punish him in some less cruel way, but he refused. Mrs. Gillan persisted, and at last M. Boulerand offered to release him if he was paid £14. Finally he took down the boy, who had been in that position from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. Then he savagely struck him! down, and Mr. Gillan went over and paid £ i 4 , t o save his life. M. Boulerand handed him over, to Mr. Gillan just as if he would a sheep for which he had received payment. (From £12 to £14 per head is the regular price paid by planters who get their labour through professional recruiters; others do their own recruiting.) Bj careful treatment the boy recovered, and Mr. Gillan succeeded in bringing the Frenchman before the Court. He was convicted, and fined £2, but was allowed to keep the £14 paid him by Mr. Gillan for the boy's liberty. I am sure that I am appealing to a sympathetic heart when I appeal to the Minister of External Affairs in regard to this matter. It is quite likely that he will reply that we in this Parliament need to be very careful in handling tliese, perhaps, intricate and delicate international questions, and that sometimes a loose word in a sentence may be interpreted in quite a wrong fashion and lead to difficulties arising between the British and French Governments. I do not think that it is likely that any great international trouble may accrue. I rejoice in the fact that there is such a wonderfully good feeling existing between the English and French nations. For some years now we have been: sailing along, in a sense, in comparative security in the knowledge that two great nations, as well as others intimately associated with them, are doing their best to maintain the peace of the world. Reasonable people belonging to these two nations, and especially those who have control of the Government, would not be aroused to any reprisals by this matter being brought up in the Commonwealth Parliament. This group of islands is situated in a very important position, as far as Australia is concerned. It will be practically in a direct trade route between the Panama Canal and Australia, and is going to become more and more important. That is probably the reason why such active steps are being taken at the present time to enable the French to obtain supreme control in that locality. I understand that the area of the islands, which are about thirty in number, h something like 5,000 square miles, with a population, native and otherwise, approximating 100,000 souls. have here a copy of the report of an important conference held at Paama, in the New Hebrides, on 24th June, 1913, by the representatives of a number of churches engaged in missionary work in the islands. 3069 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney - Were they all of one faith ? 3070 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON The minutes and resolutions are signed on behalf of the conference by Charles F. Grunling, representing the Melanesian Mission; Frank G. Filmer, representing the Church of Christ; and Fred. J. Paton, moderator, representing the Presbyterian Mission. 3070 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - I had a telegram from the Bishop of Melanesia to the effect that the Church of England was not concerned in the conference. He sent me this information to prevent misapprehension. They were not parties to the resolutions, although they were not necessarily against them. 3070 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON t is rather peculiar, then, that the first signature should be that of the representative of the Melanesian Mission. The secretary of the Conference was Thomson MacMillan, who I should say, by the name, belongs to the Presbyterian Mission. Quite a number of resolutions were passed, and I can hardly conceive of a number of responsible representative men affixing their signatures to a document of this kind unless there was something transpiring on the islands that needed immediate attention. I trust that, as the result of what has taken place, the Minister will make representations to the British Government on this subject. I notice in the press this morning a statement by the Minister that the present Government, as well as previous Governments, have had an intimation from the British Government that, prior to any arrangement being made in the future between the British and French nations, the Commonwealth Government would be consulted on these points. 3070 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - Speaking from the history of the matter for the last five years, I believe we shall be consulted before any final step is taken. 3070 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher At the Imperial Conference in 1911, a resolution to that effect was carried, and the Colonial Office promised to give effect to it 3070 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON I am glad to hear this, but certain things appear to have transpired on the islands that must claim our immediate attention as a Parliament. The one thing upon which Britishers, and particularly Australians, pride themselves is that, when we go into a dark-skinned man's land, we treat the natives fairly. We have taken Australia from the aborigines, and we are now endeavouring, in every State, to pay every regard to their requirements. We have in Victoria mission stations where the natives are allowed to live, as far as practicable, in as near their natural state as possible. Generally it is our boast that we are paying due regard to the interests of this class of people. The natives in the islands are not armed to the teeth as civilized nations are, although sometimes they have internal disturbances, and sometimes their practices assume cannibalistic forms; but, generally speaking, they are an unarmed and unprotected people, and they are taken advantage of by recruiters who come from civilized countries. It is a standing disgrace to civilized nations, and to our common Christianity, that there are still white men who are prepared to conduct this kind of traffic, robbing husbands of their wives, and baking away children who have not reached the age of sixteen. Although, according to the arrangements between the British and French Governments, no boy or girl under sixteen can be recruited or employed by anybody on plantations, or in other classes of work, yet, in the case of one girl, who came to the British Resident to obtain employment from a British employer on the islands, and admitted that she was six months under the age of sixteen, her testimony, and the testimony of quite a number of other witnesses, showed that she had already been in the employment of a French planter for three years 1 This shows that they pay little or no regard to any agreement that has been made. There are some members of the House who can give information of what occurred in the earlier history of Australia, and the islands in close proximity thereto. Some of them have seen things done on some of the recruiting boats that were absolutely painful, and a disgrace to our civilization and common Christianity. desire to draw the Minister's attention to the following information appearing i last night's Herald, which seems to come from a French source— NEW HEBRIDES CESSION ARTICLE SUPPORTS CHARGE M. Malherbe Outlines. Sydney, Tuesday. Latest newspaper files to hand from New Caledonia support the statement of the Rev. F. H. L. Paton, Foreign Missions' Secretary for the Presbyterian Church in Victoria, that he has received reliable information of the possibility of the New Hebrides being handed over to France. La France Australe contains an article by M. Henri Malherbe. purporting to describe in detail negotiations between England and France during the recent visit of President Poincaré to London. M. Malherbe writes— esident to England was intended to settle decisively the New Hebrides question," writes M. Malherbe. " The presence of the French Foreign Minister in London left no doubt on that point." " The condominium was to be denounced, and the New Hebrides were to be definitely ceded to France on the following conditions :—Th e cession of the Banks Islands to the Crown, and religious and commercial freedom to France in the islands annexed; the cession of Wallis Island to England, of the French rights over Muscat, at the entrance to the Persian Gulf; the correction of the frontier to the advantage of England between Nigeria and Dahomey." Some time ago, however, it was announced by the Manchester Guardian that the British Prime Minister had suggested to M. Poincare the possibility of ceding the New Hebrides to the Commonwealth control, France gaining in compensation some British territory in West Africa. Ifc Is not for me to suggest the lines of negotiation. I am prepared to leave the matter, with confidence, in the hands of the Minister. If the British Government have it in mind to relinquish all control of the New Hebrides, if they do not wish to retain any control of a territory so far removed from Great Britain, they might make arrangements with the Commonwealth .to take their place and to act for them. But, if we are going to have anything at all to do with the control of the New Hebrides, I should like the whole group, numbering thirty islands in all, to be handed over, supposing that the British Government can make satisfactory arrangements in regard to other territory. I know that, in suggesting that, I am suggesting that the people of the Commonwealth should shoulder further burdens; but we should have a greater share in the government of islands which are within a few thousand miles of our coast. There is enough information in the possession of the Minister, and of honorable members, to make us feel that the time has arrived when, in the interests of the natives, and for the sake of the fair name of British justice, action should be taken to prevent the recruiting of boys and girls and of men and women; indeed, kidnapping is taking place, cases of it having been brought under the notice of the authorities. Unfortunately, by reason of the strange composition of the Court, and from other causes, justice is very long in being served in the New Hebrides. I understand thafc a Court there, which deals with certain classes of offences, is composed wholly, or in part, of the captains or commanders of the British and French visiting vessels of war. But, at certain seasons of the year, British war vessels are absent altogether from the waters of the New Hebrides, to avoid the hurricanes which then prevail; and it is, therefore, sometimes six months, and even eight and nine months, before a Court can be constituted. As a result, occasionally an unfortunate native charged with an offence has to lie many months in prison, or is engaged out to a planter, pending trial. I have done what I consider a public duty in bringing this matter under the notice of the authorities, and I trust that the Government will make very strong representations to the British Government, with a view to bringing about a better state of affairs in the New Hebrides. We should take uj> this matter heartily, see it through, and do what we can to protect the natives of the islands, and to re-establish British justice there. 3071 KHE Capricornia 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS .- I am sorry that I did not know until the House met that it was the intention of the honorable member to raise this question, because I hold certain views regarding it which I should like to express fully. I cannot understand the attitude of those honorable members who think that the Commonwealth does not possess sufficient territory, and wish to annex islands which belong to other nations. We have tried, in our desire to grab, to settle the New Hebrides by spending Commonwealth money in sending British farmers there. We have subsidized Messrs. Burns, Philp, and Company's steamers, nominally for a mail service to the New Hebrides, but really for the conveyance of British settlers there, and the attempted settlement has proved a failure. According to the census of 1904, there were in that year 200 Britishers and 400 French settlers in the New Hebrides; but, hitherto, French interests have been dominant in the Islands, and the trade has been mostly with New Caledonia, a French Possession. We cannot adopt the attitude that the British are kinder to the natives at any place than are the French, or other foreigners. What is taking place to-day in Fiji? Are not the Hindoos there practically enslaved by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company? What is happening in our own Territory of Papua, where the natives do not get their wages until the end of the twelve months? 3072 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton In F i j i , Hindoo women are flogged with whips. 3071 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS My honorable friend read a statement some time ago showing that Hindoo women are flogged by Britishers in F i j i , a British Possession. Why should we single out particular instances, and complain of the treatment given to the natives of the New Hebrides by the French ? If an inquiry were made, I am confident that there would be little to choose between the conduct of the British and that of the French towards the natives of the New Hebrides. I do not know that we want more territory. We have millions of acres in Australia which we have yet to settle. 3072 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney - Let us give the white men in Papua votes. 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS We ought to use our influence to secure better treatment for all the natives of islands near to our coasts, but there is much to be done to set our own house in order, and we need to be careful. . I hope the opinion that I am about to express will not be offensive to the Minister of External Affairs, but I think that until there is a Labour Government in power in Australia the natives of any of the islands of the Pacific or of Papua will not get a fair deal. 3072 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Oh! 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS I ask the honorable member whether it is not a fact - an d I appeal to the missionaries—tha t until the Labour Government took charge in New Guinea very little was done for the natives there. 3072 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Hear, hear; and in the Northern Territory, too. 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS Yes . The Church of England Standard, I think, mentions the fact, giving credit to the Australian Labour Government for its endeavour to do justice to the natives of Papua and of Australia. My honorable friends opposite are the instruments of the Capitalistic party, and it is not in the interests of that party that they should interfere to see that the natives get fair treatment and a good rate of wages. We must judge the party by its'past. What did it do for the natives of New Guinea, or of Australia, prior to 1910, when the Australian National Labour party took office ? Honorable members opposite had no time for the native. They have no time for white men, let alone natives. Anything that will keep down the wages of white men will be supported by them. The next measure which we are to consider is one for keeping down the wages of white men in Australia. It appears that the condominium in the New Hebrides is not giving satisfaction, and it is hard to see how it could. The Court there is composed of a Britisher and a Frenchman, with a Spaniard, appointed by the King of Spain, as President. 3072 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - And the lawyer is a Dutchman. 3072 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher A member of one of the most law-abiding nations in the world. 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS No exception can be taken to the composition of the Court under the peculiar circumstances of the case. A dual control was arranged for, and therefore the two nations concerned must be represented. I believe that the proceedings of the Court are conducted in French, and that, of course, puts Britishers at a disadvantage. But we ought not to do anything calculated to cause ill-feeling between France and Great Britain, or between France and Australia, or between the New Hebrides aud the Commonwealth. According to my reading the French in the New Hebrides consider that their nation is entitled to the sole control of the islands. I sympathize with the honorable member for Maribyrnong in having to avail himself of the motion of adjournment to bring forward this matter, all other opportunities of free discussion having been closured. 3087 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER Order! 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS I shall not say anything more on the point. I merely express sympathy with the honorable member in not being able to have this matter discussed on any other motion. It is too big a question to discuss on a motion of adjournment. There are too many interests involved, and members can only speak on the motion for about a quarter of an hour. 3072 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - But should we not take advantage of every opportunity to see that better treatment is meted out to these unfortunate people? 3072 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS I agree with the honorable member in that. That should be our aim. The aim of all the civilized people of the world ought to be to secure the better treatment of those whom we describe as the uncivilized people of the earth. 3073 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - Does the honorable member think that we can call them that after what occurred here last night? 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS The proceedings of last evening were rather excited. I am not permitted to refer to them, and I have not the time to do so, anyway. The attitude of the people of Australia, of Great Britain, of the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, and all who have control of native races ought to be to confer upon them the benefits of the civilization of which they are themselves the heirs. Where the British people have control of native races, they ought to teach them the English language. The missionaries ought to teach the natives of these islands our language, and give them an opportunity of reading our literature. 3073 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - -I think that they are doing so. 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS It is only lately that any effort has been made to do so. I do not wish to cast any reflection upon the men and women who devote their lives to trying to improve the lot of what we call the heathen races of the earth, but I think that a great mistake has been made in the past. Hundreds of years have been wasted because the proper course has not. been followed, and these native races have not been taught our language. We have refused to teach them our language because we wanted to keep them in subjection, and wanted them to work for us. Thafc has been, in my opinion, our attitude until recent years. I. shall join the honorable member for Maribyrnong in any agitation he may take in hand in connexion with this matter or in any deputation to wait upon our warm-hearted friend opposite, the Minister of External Affairs. I do not include that honorable gentleman in my general condemnation of the Ministerial party. 3073 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Hear, hear. He is one of the elect. 3073 KFC 0 0 FLEMING, William Mr Fleming I s Sir John Forrest a man with a small heart? 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS No ; the right honorable gentleman has a big heart. There may be other members of the Ministry who are big-hearted men, but, unfortunately, they are obliged collectively to do what their party tells them to do. The Colonial Sugar Refining Company, who, through their agents, are flogging Hindoos in F i j i , are amongst the directors of my honorable friends opposite. 3073 KFC 0 0 FLEMING, William Mr Fleming - That is not a fair statement to make. 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS I think that it is a fair statement, generally speaking. 3073 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - Some honorable members upon this side were amongst the strongest opponents of the Colonial Sugar Refining Company when the Tariff was being considered, and prophesied exactly what has taken place. 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS The honorable gentleman refers to the Free Traders; but I think that they are unregenerate. 3073 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr Glynn - Then the honorable member's conscience depends upon his policy ? 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS I think my honorable friend is wrong in his ideas in supporting Free Trade. I hope that the Minister of External Affairs will do whatever he can to influence British representatives in the New Hebrides to see that the natives are treated properly. 3073 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - When the honorable member advocates that they should be taught our language, I hope he does not propose that they should be taught parliamentary language. 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS The honorable member is taking up my time by his interjections, but I should like to say that I would not for a moment suggest that they should be taught such parliamentary language as is to be found in some of the speeches of the Prime Minister, in which he has referred to the speeches of other honorable members as " tripe " and " hogwash." 3073 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER Order 1 The honorable member is quite out of order. 3073 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS Or the references by other honorable members to " tick-tackers." My view on this question is that we have plenty of territory at present without annexing any more, but if there is anything we can do to enable the natives of these islands to be given a better show, we ought to do it . 3073 4.11 KLM Melbourne 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY .- As I understand that the debate on this motion must conclude at half-past 4 o'clock, I shall not occupy more than about three minutes. 3073 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher It need not be concluded then. 3073 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY I wish to say that I hope no friction will be raised with France under any circumstances in dealing with these islands. With the brightest hopes for the future of Australia, I am proud to see the flags of Germany, Holland, and France around our coast, because I know that the Stars and Stripes stand sentinal at Manilla, and may be appealed to in our hour of need. I wish to pay my meed of praise to the missionaries, and particularly to the Presbyterian missionaries, with whom I was brought most into contact on my visit to these islands. Under their system, the best-paid men are those who do the best work, and I wish that the other missionaries, of whatever creed or belief, were given the same advantages as are enjoyed by the Presbyterian missionaries. When I visited the islands, in 1907, I was informed that the missionaries did not teach the natives English, but that certain men devoted years of their lives to the translation of portions of the Scriptures and of hymns into certain native languages, many of which in the course of time become absolutely dead, as not a single native is left alive who speaks them. The Melanesian Mission, who have grasped about 1,000 acres in Norfolk Island, teach the Motu language, but do not teach the English language, which they were themselves brought up to speak. Traders will tell you that the missionaries adopt this course in their own interests, but I do not believe that for a moment. I recently received a letter from the Rev. Mr. Paton, or from the Secretary to the Presbyterian Mission, assuring me that the strongest missionary body in the New Hebrides—the Presbyterian Mission, which is head and shoulders over all the others—are now teaching the natives English. This is to be highly commended. I wish that the Condominium would induce the French and English to teach those under their care their respective languages. The traders never complained to me of the French Brothers, of the Roman Catholic faith, who are teaching Christianity in the Island, but they did complain of the others. On inquiry, I was satisfied that the traders were wrong. I do not think there is much difference between the trader who speaks English and the trader who speaks French. I agree with the honorable member for Capricornia that we have territory enough to look after in Australia, and do not need to annex any more, and, in this matter, I particularly desire that no friction may be caused with France, who is a good friend to us. I wish to protest that, before we poke our noses into the concerns of other countries, whether of the dear old Homeland, of France, or of Holland, we should see that our fellowmen in Papua are properly treated. Papua is a Territory of the Commonwealth, and yet the white men and women who are plucky enough to go there are given no parliamentary representation, although a majority have asked for such representation. 3074 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER Order 1 That is outside the scope of the motion. 3074 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY I wish merely to say that it ill-becomes us to complain of the treatment of the natives of the New Hebrides and other islands when we are treating white men and women residing in a Territory under our control as if they were serfs. It is all very well to speak of teaching coloured races the Christian virtues of civilized people, but we can hardly wonder that they are sometimes discredited when we find Christian nations, such as those of the Balkans, tearing and destroying one another like .savages. Even in my time the lash was introduced into Western Australia by the Ministry of the day. 3074 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER Order! 3074 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY It is time we had strong speaking on this matter, and I have referred to that as an indication that we have enough to do in our own country. I am prepared to assist the honorable member for Maribrynong by deputation or from the platform at all times, to secure better treatment for the natives, whom we are accustomed to speak of as uncivilized. In Australia we can lay claim to a higher degree of civilization than can any other country under the British flag, because here every human being over twenty-one years of age has a right to be heard in the making of the laws which all are called upon to obey. In England no man is entitled to a vote who is not possessed of property, and even the Prime Minister of England does not possess a vote, because he lives in his wife's house. I say that "we have enough to do in Australia, but we should show our sympathy with these people, and do what we can to see that they get fair play. ' I am opposed to a proposal that we should take over the charge of these islands, or should resort to a kind of threat against France . that we intend to do so. I do not believe that, on the average, the Frenchman is any worse than the Britisher. We are all human beings, endowed with God's glorious gifts, and if, in some people they shine more brightly than in others, it is, perhaps, because the latter have had more opportunities to develop their faults and fewer to develop their virtues. I know that the Minister of External Affairs sympathizes with the natives of these Pacific Islands, and will do his best for them while avoiding friction with the great French nation. 3075 4.15 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- Unlike the honorable members for Melbourne and Capricornia, I take the view that, whether we like it or not, we shall have to accept, so far as is practicable and possible by diplomatic communications with European Powers, the responsibility of tie management of the Pacific Islands near to Australia. That is a destiny which, I think, awaits this country. I do not think that honorable members ought, in this or any other Parliament in Australia, to lay any charge against a friendly nation and Government in dealing with this matter. The history of Australia itself in connexion with the Pacific Islands is such as to give us pause before attempting to set ourselves up as an example to other nations. It is our duty if there have been abuses in the New Hebrides by the traders or individuals of any nation, to ventilate the matter, with a view to having justice done to those who should receive the assistance of all civilized communities. I am sorry that the evidence supplied by the honorable member for Maribyrnong appears to support statements which do not reflect credit upon certain persons, who need not be mentioned here. I wish to clearly disassociate myself from the view that we should not look forward to the time when Australia will attempt to take over these islands, and govern them as far as practicable and possible. During the speech of the honorable member for Capricornia I interjected that at the Imperial Conference, in 1911, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. Harcourt, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, agreed that when any diplomatic action was contemplated by the British Government in matters relating to islands in the Pacific, or to any matter affecting Australia directly or indirectly, the Commonwealth Government should be advised prior to any decision being arrived at. The Minister of External Affairs must be aware whether any communication, secret or other, has been made to him on this particular question. If Australia, at any time, should decide to negotiate for the transfer of this group of islands, or other Pacific islands, it must be prepared to pay for them. In my opinion, one of the great and grave troubles in the New Hebrides, as it is in New Caledonia, is that private companies have got possession of the lands of the natives, and are holding those lands as a prize, and extorting tribute. By that means, of course, they have acquired certain rights - rights which we recognise by law, custom, and practice, and which the British nation have taught most countries the worth of - and they are endeavouring to sell them. If the Government of the Commonwealth should have to purchase those rights, according to my experience and knowledge of the amount asked for them, the matter will require very grave and serious consideration. On the main point, I do not wish to be counted amongst those in this Parliament who think we have enough possessions, and ought not to extend our lands in any way. The great mainland of Australia will, in the future - populated, I hope, rich, and thoroughly civilized - extend its civilization to the neighbouring islands in the Pacific, and what other country could do it so effectively and so beneficially? I concur in what has been said by the honorable member for Capricornia regarding our action recently in relation to our own territories. If we were in possession of those islands we would feel in duty bound to carry our policy to them in the same manner and to the same degree as we have done in the case of our own possessions. On these grounds, I would be the last to cast the slightest reflection on the present Administration. I would no more think of doing that than I would reflect on our own country, except for good and sufficient reason, and I mention it, not as a particular instance, but as a characteristic of the. country. It must not, and I think honorable members desire that it should not, go out to the public that the French Administration is less careful of justice and civilization than we ourselves would be. If any comments are made, they are made as regards the acts of individuals, and not as regards the Government, so far as I am concerned. I do not wish to be associated with them in any suggestion that the French Government and people are not as anxious as we are to civilize their own possessions, and look after the best interests of the people who are under their care in these islands. 3076 4.23 KCO Angas LP Minister of External Affairs 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN . - I intend to speak for only a few minutes, but I think I may recognise the temperate and generous spirit in which the question has been approached by honorable members. I can only assure the honorable member for Maribyrnong and the Leader of the Opposition that the Government are fully seized of the necessity of seeing that our points of view are presented to the Imperial Government, in view of the possibility of a proposed interchange of communications on the Convention of 1906 taking place in the near future. I may go beyond that, and even say that we have, by cablegram and by a pretty exhaustive despatch, communicated what we interpret to be the sense of Australia in this matter in relation to the New Hebrides. Shortly stated, the position, I think, is that, in 1887, an arrangement for the maintenance of law and order by the Naval Commission was entered into between the United Kingdom and France. When the entente cordiale was ripening, about 1905-6, suggestions were made that that might be brought into some other form of arrangement, chiefly in connexion with land titles. In 1906, the Condominium was framed. It is generally admitted that it is not a success. There are inherent weaknesses in any system of joint control, which do not at all discount from the high standing of the nations connected with it. I join with my friends opposite in paying a tribute to the traditions of France, as well as of Great Britain. I had school-day associations with France, and historically there is no nation which has higher claims to respect and to the emulation of other nations than that which has the tri-colour as the emblem of its existence. At the same time, there may be weaknesses in the system of administration, which may result in something which is not quite in consonance with the motives which inspired the nations when they entered into the agreement. There are weaknesses in the Condominium. The Joint Court is not altogether responsible for what has taken place. Some time ago, I had the advantage of an interview with the Count Esperanza, the President of the Court. It is a Court composed of the President, who is a Spanish lawyer; a Frenchman, and an Englishman. The Prosecutor is Dutch. The language is French or English. Sometimes two translations are required before the matter reaches the persons who have to apprehend what is going on. 3076 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton s not there a difficulty in getting those translations in respect of land claims? 3076 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN There would be where land claims came before the Court which are connected with natives, and where one member of the Court may not be as conversant with the French or English language as another member. This sometimes results in a misapprehension as to what is going on. But the Court has power to impose only light penalties. The maximum penalty for a breach of the Convention is £20. Further, the Court cannot enforce its own judgments. Those judgments have to be enforced by the Resident Commissioners of the particular nationalities. Representations on this point have been very forcibly urged by the Presbyterian missionaries, whose work, as well as that of the Marist Brothers, has been very disinterestedly performed. The chief weakness of the Convention, I repeat, lies in the fact that the enforcement of these penalties is left to the Commissioners of each nationality, and the complaint is that in some cases they are not enforced. 3076 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I presume that is because they have no power to enforce them. 3076 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER nde r the Standing Orders, this debate closes automatically at half-past 4 o'clock. Is it the pleasure of the House that the Minister shall be granted an extension of time? HONORABLE MEMBERS.—Hear , hear ! 3076 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN A certain amount of judicious reticence may really conduce to the end we have in view in these matters. I can only assure the Leader of the Opposition that we have kept in mind the sense of Australia that the New Hebrides possess strategic and trade advantages, and, above all, that they have imposed upon us moral obligations in relation to the natives, which we want the most ample opportunity of discharging. These matters have been put before the Imperial Government. But to return to the question of the weaknesses of the Convention. Kidnapping has been mentioned by the honorable member for Maribyrnong, and one can illustrate its weaknesses from that. The incidents of kidnapping may not be an offence which comes within the cognisance of the Joint Court at all. That tribunal has cognisance only of offences which directly relate to articles of the Convention. In respect of kidnapping, it can only see whether the terms of indenturing have been entered into and observed according to the prescribed methods. But violence, in a case with fatal results, in kidnapping is an offence against the laws both of France and of England, triable only in the National Court. There have been cases of this kind alleged, principally by the Presbyterian missionaries, which have not been punished, but that is not due - a s I have mentioned - t o any action of the High Court, but rather to the weaknesses of the Convention, which does not give it jurisdiction in matters which are incidental to indenturing. 3077 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Has that combined Court no power to protect the natives against kid napping ? 3077 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN Generally , the power to effectively protect against kidnapping is vested in the national Court of the defendant. As a result, it is alleged that the penalties imposed are very light, that they are not enforced, and that justice is thus frustrated. On the other hand, we must remember that, according to the French law, there is a power of dispensation of penalties which does not exist in connexion with the English law. For instance, where a man gives some plausible reason for his statement that he is unable to satisfy a penalty, power is given to remit it 3077 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The Minister thinks the penalty is so severe that the person convicted might lose his life over it ? 3077 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN There are practices in connexion with the jurisprudence of France, based upon law and administration, which sometimes give a different colour to a transaction from that which we attach to it . 3077 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Has anything come to the knowledge of the Government in regard to negotiations for the cession of these islands? 3077 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN I do not believe that any negotiations are pending regarding the cession of the islands of which we have not knowledge. I think it is about six months since Monsieur Poincare visited -England. I know nothing of the outcome of his visit, but I am certain that we shall be fully apprised of any steps which may be taken in the direction indicated, first, because we know what is going on, and secondly, because a resolution was arrived at in 1911 that in matters affecting our direct interests we should be informed of what was transpiring. In addition, I recollect that in connexion with the Declaration of London a remonstrance was made by the Commonwealth against being asked to agree to a declaration which had been finalized before it was submitted to us. I have no fear that any definite step will be taken that will ignore the policy of Australia, or that will, at all events, prevent us from presenting our views and suggesting what policy should be pursued in connexion with the New Hebrides. Question resolved in the negative. 3077 Questions 3077 3077 KFE LP 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY asked the Treasurer, upon notice— (1) Whether he recognises the loss accruing to Western Australia by the competition of the Commonwealth Savings Bank with that of the State? (2) Does he propose introducing legislation this session which will remedy the present conditions? 3077 KFJ LP 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST The replies to the honorable member's questions are as follow:— Yes. The Government regrets the unnecessary expenditure that is going on through the duplication of the work connected with the Savings Bank, and proposes, as soon as possible, to consult the States Governments with a view to preventing it. (2) The Government regrets that it is not possible, under existing conditions, to do so. 3077 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr PIGOTT asked the Treasurer, upon notice— Whether he will inform the House in connexion with the Commonwealth Bank— 1. Out of the total of £2,700,000 in the Savings Bank Department, what sums have been deposited in the city and suburban branches, and what in the country branches? 2. Out of the total advances of £458,000, how much has been to country borrowers? 3078 KFJ LP 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST The Governor of the bank has furnished the following replies: r. The information is not readily available. 2. It is not desirable to make public the details' of the bank's business. 3078 3078 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice— Has the General Manager been appointed for the Commonwealth Naval Dockyard, Cockatoo Island, and, if so, when is he to take up his 'duties? 3078 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY No . The matter is still under consideration. 3078 3078 KNF LP 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE (for Mr. KENDALL,) asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice— 1. What was the cost to the Federal Government of the s.s. Stuart with equipment? 2. What is the annual expenditure for running this steamer, including wages, overtime, coal, etc.? 3. What is her consumption of coal per day, and the average rate of speed obtained? 4. By what Administration was this boat purchased? 5. Has she been found suitable for the work for which she was originally intended? 6. If not, what action does the Government intend to take? 7. Is the captain, only responsible for the control of this vessel ? 3078 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN The replies to the honorable member's questions are— 1. £16,307 2. During the period of six months in which the vessel has been in service, the average monthly cost of running has been about £700. 3. So far as we can at the moment say, about .10 tons. Average speed, 6£ knots on trip to Darwin. (Speed on trial, p knots.) 4. She was purchased in 1912, and began work in April this year. The last Government was in office. 5. It is thought that she has fairly filled the requirements of the service she is engaged in, but the matter is under investigation. 6. That will depend upon the full reports which will be called for from the Administrator and the facts disclosed. 7. The captain is responsible for the working of the vessel at sea, but takes directions from the Government Secretary's Department as to :her movements. 3078 Loan : Rate of Interest 3078 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN asked the Treasurer, upon notice— Is it a fact that the Commonwealth Bank has recently made a loan of £25,000 at 4i per cent, to the Prahran Tramway Trust? 3078 KFJ LP 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST The Governor of the bank informs me that the Commonwealth Bank has not made a loan to the Prahran Tramway Trust. 3078 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr PATTEN asked the Treasurer, upon notice— Will he inform the House what rate of interest is being charged by the Commonwealth Bank to country borrowers? 3078 KFJ LP 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST The Governor of the bank informs me that the rate of interest charged by the bank on ordinary overdraft is at present 6 per cent, per annum. 3078 3078 JTC ALP 0 0 BURCHELL, Reginald Mr BURCHELL asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice— Whether any arrangements have yet been made for the Australian Navy, particularly the warships Australia and Sydney, to visit the various States? If so, will the Minister give particulars of the itinerary ? 3078 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows:— 1. H.M.A. ships Australia and Sydney will leave Sydney on or about 13th November en route for Spencer Gulf, where very necessary fleet exercises and gunnery and torpedo practices are to be curried out. The ships will be in these waters till the end of the year, and will then proceed to Hobart. Visits to other States will be made as opportunity offers, having regard to the requirements of the regular fleet exercises and practices. 3078 3078 KFE LP 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice— 1. Australia Government mails are being conveyed through districts having .railway communication by vehicle or motor, instead of by train ? 2. Cannot arrangements be made so that the public may obtain those postal facilities which one would reasonably imagine should follow the opening of a railway through a new district? 3. Will the Postmaster-General favorably consider the expediency and advisability of instructing that when a State proposes the expenditure of thousands of pounds in the construction of a pioneer railway, the Commonwealth should also provide telegraphic or telephonic communication along the proposed route of such pioneer railway? 3079 L1R LP 1 0 WYNNE, Agar Mr AGAR WYNNE The Deputy Postmaster-General, Perth, has furnished the following information :— 1. Of 2,854 miles of Government railways opened for traffic in Western Australia, approximately 2,382 miles are used for the conveyance of mails; balance of 472 miles is represented by several spur lines in agricultural areas, where services per vehicle and motor are ia operation. Road services are in reality rural deliveries, providing greater facilities for the greatest number of settlers at a cost more in keeping with the revenue. Minimum cost of conveyance of mails per railway is £7 ios. per mile per annum. Use of these lines will entail additional expenditure of £3,540 per annum, without material increase in revenue. In almost every instance the existing road services must be continued. In addition to the cost of carriage of mails, additional expenditure would be necessary in regard to allowance postmasters or mail receivers for the conveyance of mails to and from stations, sidings, etc. Present conditions do not warrant mail services by railway as well as by road. Practice is to make use of railway immediately the additional cost is justified. In some cases there is more frequent service by road than is possible on existing railway time-tables. 2. See answer to No. 1. 3. It is the practice lo provide telephonic and telegraphic communication on all new railway routes by arrangements with the Railway Department, or, where circumstances warrant, by special lines. 3079 3079 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST asked the Prime Minister, upon notice- Whether it is the intention of the Government to hold the proposed Inter-State Conference of Health Officers re the removal of the quarantine embargo without the Health Officers of the State of New South Wales? 3079 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK The Health Officer of New South Wales is in attendance at the Conference. 3079 3079 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice— 1. Who were the officials who constituted the Federal Designs Board, and what are or were their salaries respectively? 2. How many assistants had they at Canberra, Melbourne, and Sydney, to assist in the preparation of the composite design which the Board recommended for acceptance? 3. How many excursions did the Designs Board make to Canberra, what time was consumed in such visits, and who did their ordinary work in their absence? 4. How many of the comparative plans were photographed, and were copies kept at Canberra and Melbourne? 5. Can the Minister inform the House what it cost the country to prepare the composite design? 3079 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY The answers are as follow:— 1. Colonel David Miller, C.M.G., I.S.O., V.D., Secretary, Department of Home Affairs, and Administrator of the Federal Territory, salary £900 per. annum, chairman. Lieut.-Col. Percy T. Owen, A. Inst., C.E., A. Am., I.E.E., Director-General of Commonwealth Public Works, salary £1,000 per annum. Charles Robert Scrivener, L.S., I.S.O., Director of Commonwealth Lands and Surveys, salary £900 per annum. George John Oakeshott, Commonwealth Works Director for New South Wales, salary £650 per annum. John Smith Murdoch, Senior Assistant to the Director-General of Commonwealth Public Works, salary £580 per annum. Thomas Hi l l , C.E., L.S., M.V.I.E., Commonwealth Works Director for Victoria, salary £580 per annum. It should be noted that the above salaries are paid by virtue of the offices held in the Department by the officers concerned, and that additional salaries were not paid to members of the Board for the services rendered thereon. 2. None. The members of the Board themselves prepared the rough drawings, and the finished drawings were prepared by departmental draftsmen, not specially engaged for that purpose. 3. The Departmental Board held four meetings at Canberra during 1912, viz. :— ist meeting, from 23rd to 30th August. 2nd meeting, from 12th to 14th September. 3rd meeting, from 2nd to 7th October. 4th meeting, from 16th to 19th October. The whole of the members of the Board were present on all occasions, excepting Colonel Miller, who was on special duty in Western. Australia from 27th August to 3rd October. No member of the Board was relieved from' his ordinary responsibilities when sitting on the Board, and ordinary work was coped with by working longer hours. 4. The majority of the designs were photographed, the negatives being retained in Melbourne. Copies of the premiated designs and design No. 10 were kept at Canberra and Melbourne. 5. I presume the honorable member refers to the Departmental Board's design, in respect of which no special expenditure was incurred, beyond the cost of the reproduction of the design y photo-lithography, which amounted to not more than_ £50. The members of the Board during their visits to Canberra also transacted ordinary departmental business in connexion with the establishment of the Capital. 3079 3079 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr PIGOTT asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice— Is it a -fact that the Defence Department is going to countenance parades, other than to church, by cadets and trainees on the Sabbath? 3080 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY Tli e reply to the honorable member's question is: Cadets.—N o Sunday parades are held. Citizen Forces.—Instruction s were issued some time since, and such instructions are still in force, that no statutory or paid parade—tha t is, no' compulsory parades—wer e to be held on Sundays except at Camps of Continuance Training. With regard to Camps of Continuance Training, instructions were issued that church parades were to be held, and Commandants were informed that there was no objection to a portion of the day being devoted to such military exercises as are instructive and beneficial, care being taken that the observance of the Sabbath by the general community was not disturbed or affected. Instructions were also subsequently issued that Sunday evenings during camps of training were not to be utilized for military instruction, so that where practicable the troops may attend places of worship. 3080 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers: - Commonwealth Bank Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 140. Defence Act - Military Forces - Provisional Regulations - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 273. Financial and Allowance Regulations Amended (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 280. Military College - Provisional Regulations - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 283. Universal Training - Junior Cadets - Provisional Regulations - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 282. Electoral Act and Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Act- Additional Regulations - (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 277. Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under, at- Bayswater, Western Australia - For Defence purposes. East Perth, Western Australia - For Postal purposes. Melbourne, Victoria - For Postal purposes. Naval Defence Act - Australian Naval Reserve (Sea-going) - Provisional Regulations - Statutory Rules 1913, No. 281. Public Service Act - Department of Home Affairs - Appointment of J. D. Thomson, as Draughtsman, Class E, Professional Division, Public Works Branch, Central Staff. Appointment of B.H. R. Ziggel, as Draughtsman, Class F, Professional Division, Lands and Surveys Branch. Variation of appointment of C. L. Clarke, as Draughtsman, Class E, Professional Division, Lands and Surveys Branch. 3080 bill 3080 Debate resumed from 7th November (vide page 2971), on motion by Mr. W. H. Irvine - That this Bill be now read a second time. 3080 4.47 KJE Flinders LP Attorney-General 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE . - The Bill raises, for the determination of the House, a question which is, in terms, a very simple one, but which involves one of the most fundamental principles, and which, perhaps, represents the most vital distinction politically between honorable members on this side and those who occupy the Opposition benches. It is no less than this question: Whether a Government intrusted with the control of public affairs and the expenditure of public funds by the whole people, -presumably for the benefit of the whole people, is entitled to exercise the power of giving or withholding employment in such a way as to give preference to one section of the community over other sections? I do not intend to occupy the attention of the House at any very great length over that point. The point is, in itself, so simple, so clear, so definite, that it needs very little from me to explain the measure. It will be for the House itself to decide definitely aye or no whether the principle of Government preference to unionists initiated by the previous Administration, after, as I shall point out, deliberate conclusion on the matter, is to become part of the administrative law of this land. Before going further, however, it may be as well that I should state the actual facts as to what took place. On the 15th September, 1911, the following minute was issued to the Director-General of Works by the Minister of Home Affairs in the late Administration, the Hon. King O'Malley: - I am informed that in the building trade we are paying men only 8s. 3d. per day for forty-four hours a week. I desire that we should pay not less than 9s. per day irrespective of the number of hours worked per week ; absolute preference to unionists. Please furnish a list of non-unionists employed. There was no reason assigned as to why the Minister should require a list of non-unionists to be supplied. The reason will, however, be apparent, I think, from a consideration of what actually took place in pursuance of this order. On the 19th September, the then Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Deakin, asked the then Prime Minister, the right honorable member for Wide Bay, a question in regard to the matter. The question, which will be found reported in Hansard, Vol. LX., page 570, was as follows: - I observe from the Melbourne morning newspapers that the Prime Minister has stated it to be the intention of the Government to adopt some method of granting preference to unionists. No doubt, on a matter of such importance, he will desire to take the House into his confidence at the earliest moment, indicating the extent and manner in which the principle is to be applied, and how it will affect existing legislation or regulations made thereunder. The right honorable member for Wide Bay replied - I take no exception to the question. The recognition of the principle of preference to unionists is not a new thing in the policy of the Government, it having been part of our policy for some time past; the declaration to which the honorable member refers is that in future the recognition will be general instead of being confined to particular instances. Capital and labour are better able to deal with each other when organized. The unions have recognised rates of wages and regulations governing conditions of employment which enable us to know what price we must pay for labour and under what conditions it can be employed. In many trades, unionists will not work with non-unionists, and it is an advantage to have labour organized in unions so that it may be dealt with. . . . On that, a motion was made by the then Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Deakin, challenging the attitude of the Government. The motion will be found reported at page 768 of the same volume of Hansard, and I may say that it embodied the deliberate views of all who then constituted the Opposition, and who now support the Government. It was in these words - That, in the opinion of this House, the preferences in obtaining and retaining employment recently introduced into this Department by the Minister of Home Affairs are unjust and oppressive, prejudicial alike to the public interest, to the Public Service, and to the relations between Parliament and the public servants. 3081 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns s. - As a new member, may I ask if that motion was debated ? 3081 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It was. 3081 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns - It was not treated as the vote of censure moved last Friday was treated. 3081 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It was debated at length. If the question is addressed to me seriously, with a desire to obtain information, I may tell the honorable member that he will find the debate on the motion reported at length in the succeeding pages of Hansard. The only part of the debate to which I desire at present to refer is the distinct statement made by the then Prime Minister, the present Leader of the Opposition, and reported at page 785, that - In taking this step with regard to the Public Service, the Government have acted deliberately. The division on the motion will be found at page 953 of Hansard, and the whole of the members sitting behind the Government of that day, with the single exception of the honorable member for Gippsland, voted or paired with the " Noes." That is the plain record of the facts. I have no hesitation in saying that not only did this action on the part of the late Government involve an entirely new departure in the administration of public affairs in any British community, but that it involved a principle to which, I think, no British people who have been accustomed to the free parliamentary government and responsible government which we have hitherto enjoyed, will long continue to give their sanction. Honorable members have always been at liberty to move in support of their own views, and of those of their supporters as long as they have remained private members, but it has always been the position of Governments in British communities, at all events, that once they take their places on the Treasury bench, the trust with which they are then invested is regarded as a sacred one, to be administered for the benefit of the whole of the people equally. In adopting this policy of preference to unionists, the late Government departed avowedly, deliberately, and openly from that principle. 3081 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson -I am glad that the honorable member admits that we did it openly. 3081 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - Not only did they do it openly, but they do not appear to have had the ordinary symptoms of shame which such a course, one would think, would bring with it. Several honorable members interjecting, 3081 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I had hoped rather to evoke that outburst, and I am very glad it has come, because I want this issue to be finally determined, if possible, by the people of Australia, and it is desirable that we should know at once exactly how far honorable members are prepared to go. The claim put forward by Governments that they are entitled to use their administrative power to put those who support them into public offices- 3081 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - That has been done for years and centuries. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Does the honorable member now say - - 3082 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - You have done it. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- Does the honorable member now say that he is prepared to support this action on the part of the late Administration on the ground that they were entitled to put their own supporters into public offices? 3082 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - That is most unfair. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member says that this has been done for centuries. Apparently, he is prepared to support it on the ground that a Government have the right to put men into public offices because they are supporters of the party to which it belongs. 3082 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - An unfair statement to make. 3082 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley y. - Do not misrepresent him. What are the members of the Inter-State Commission but supporters of the present Government ? Mr. SPEAKER.- Order ! 3082 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - Such a statement is typical of the honorable member. 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- Order ! 3082 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns - Your own supporters- 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- The honorable member for Grey is out of order. I have several times called for order, and my call has been disregarded. It will be necessary for me, if it is not obeyed, to have recourse to other means of enforcing it. 3082 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - As a matter of privilege 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- Order ! 3082 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - The honorable member for Grey has been wrongly charged. 3082 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton n. - I did not interject. 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Then I am sorry that I mentioned the honorable member's name. I mistook the voice. It was the honorable member for Illawarra who offended. I ask him to cease interjecting. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I shall ask honorable members to consider for a moment the logical and only result of the action which was taken so deliberately by the late Administration. If their action is to continue, it is one which may probably be adopted by both sides. 3082 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - It had been done by one side for years. 3082 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster r. - The other side has always done it. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If this is done, then we shall have introduced into Australia those tactics which every wise and prudent man has hitherto denounced or deplored in connexion with the political affairs of that great country, the United States of America. There is no greater admirer of the energy and character of the people of America than I am. But we know that, for two or three generations, the wisest men in America have not only felt ashamed of, but have deplored, the existence of the policy of a clean sweep, which takes place whenever an Administration goes out and a new Administration comes in. That great country is now endeavouring to free itself from the trammels of that kind of thing. It is doing so in its State, and also in its Federal, administration with some measure of success. But at the very moment when the people of the United States of America are trying to free themselves from it, we shall implant that rotten principle in the history of Australia, if honorable members opposite have their own way. 3082 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - No, we shall not. No one wants it. 3082 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley y. - The honorable member is not prepared to follow on these lines in his Department. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I hope that we shall never follow them. " 3082 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - A Bill is not necessary to do what the honorable member desires. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If anything were required to show the necessity of an Act of Parliament to do what we propose, I think it would be found in the jeers and conduct of honorable members opposite at the present moment. Does not every interjection made by them mean that if they were again intrusted with power they would once more introduce the principle ? 3082 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - No, it does not. 3082 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - It is the Attorney-General's misrepresentation to which we object. 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3082 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - It is the honorable member's legal contortion. 3082 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns s. - They would have it on the statute-book if they had a majority. 3082 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! The honorable member for Illawarra is again out of order. 3082 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - One of the most significant features of the application of this principle by the late Administration is to be found in the words which were used in the order as actually framed, and on which the present Leader of the Opposition, then the head of the Government, endeavoured, both in this House and outside, to justify their policy. I refer to the use of the expression " Other things being equal, preference shall be given." Even if other things are absolutely equal, that fact does not take away the inherent injustice of preferring one section of law-abiding citizens to another. But were other things ever equal in the administration of the late Government? Is it not notorious that in every Department which they administered, and more especially in the Department of Public Works, presided over by the honorable member for Darwin, all those who got employment after the issue of this order were practically coerced into joining a union before they obtained it, while those who were in- 3083 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - Who got the preference before that time? 3083 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - The honorable member for Dalley is out of order in repeatedly interjecting. 3083 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - If necessary, I am going to repeat my interjection. 3083 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- The honorable member is again out of order. 3083 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - I am going to repeat the statement. 3083 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - If the honorable member persists in interjecting he will compel me to adopt another course. I have no desire to do so, but I must preserve order. 3083 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - I have no desire to insult the Chair, but when the Attorney-General makes such statements as he has been making I must enter my protest. 3083 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - Order ! 3083 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - I defer to you, sir, and apologize. 3083 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - Whilst no exception can be taken to an occasional interjection, repeated interjections, especially in a loud voice, by the same honorable member must inevitably lead to disorder. I accept the honorable member's apology. 3083 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I have no hesitation in saying - and I take the whole responsibility of the statement - that, so far as ordinary channels of information with regard to these matters would enable us to judge, those who sought employment in the Department to which I have referred were compelled to join unions without any question of whether the merits of one applicant were superior to those of another. Those who were already in employment were practically coerced into joining a union, or they found their position impossible. If such a principle is adopted and becomes part of our common policy, not only every Minister, no matter from what side, but every departmental head and subordinate officer, who is engaged in connexion with the employment of men, must become the willing or unwilling agent of a political press-gang for the time being. If preference is given by one political side to one section of the community, it must inevitably, in the ordinary course, cause the other side to give preference to the other section of the community. This raises the vital question : What are the circumstances, or what are the facts, that would justify any Government, either by law or in administration, in giving preference to one particular section of the people? A Government cannot give preference to one section without creating a disability in the other section. What right have we, as a Government, or as representing the whole people of Australia, and administering the taxpayers' money, to ostracize a section for no other reason than that, in the exercise of their ordinary liberty, they decline to become members of voluntary and irresponsible associations? No side of the House has any right to do it. What are those unions that claim this extraordinary privilege? What do they offer to the community in return for the monopoly which they claim the right to create ? 3083 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - They are the best workmen. 3083 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- I do not dispute for a moment that those unions contain in their ranks many of the best workmen. 3083 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - That cannot be disputed. 3083 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- I have never disputed it, nor have I ever disputed that the best men in every vocation in life naturally tend to form themselves into unions. I have never disputed the right to conjointly enforce demands, by any legal means, with the greater power that union and association gives, rather than that men should be obliged to do so singly. I think this applies to all occupations in life, and not merely to those to whom alone my friends opposite give the name of ' workers. ' ' There are workers in all lines, and all workers are entitled to associate themselves in unions for the purpose of securing to themselves the full benefit and reward of whatever they have to sell or dispose of, whether it be labour or products. But while people are perfectly entitled to co-operate for those purposes, they are not entitled to claim that the whole machinery of the State should be used to give them a preference which they are unable to gain by their own natural association. I have more than once, in referring to this matter on previous occasions, drawn a contrast between the position of the guilds of the Middle Ages in Europe, which for, perhaps, 200 or 300 years- 3084 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - For nearly 500 or 600 years. 3084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - The guilds existed, it is true, for 500 or 600 years, but, if the honorable member has studied this subject, he will know that their period of actual power and utility did not last so long, but only so long as they recognised their duty towards the community of which they were a part. So soon as they degenerated into selfish organizations, working solely for their own ends, they lost their whole power. 3084 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - We shall have syndicalism presently ! 3084 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster r. - That was not the reason for their losing power, and the Attorney-General knows it. 3084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I am not surprised that this discussion should create a little warm feeling. 3084 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - This question has defeated two Governments in the past. 3084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- It is the vital principle that separates the whole political point of view of my honorable friends opposite from the political point of view of honorable members on this side. As I say, while those guilds operated for the benefit, not merely of their own members, but of the whole community, they were strong, powerful, useful elements in the civilization of those times. But there were certain principles, above all others, which they placed right in the forefront of their programme and policy. One was the creation and maintenance of the highest form of efficiency in their members. Perfectitude in their particular art was the aim and object of every member of the guild, and, moreover, they recognised that it was a necessary part of their duty towards the public to train the young members to take the places of those who departed. Perhaps the most important point in connexion with the present discussion is that the members of the guilds always held before themselves the ideal of creating a working harmony between the master and the man - between the man who directed the operations and the man who manually conducted them. There was one general scheme from which their whole usefulness proceeded. The young were to be taken and. educated in their duty towards the community as a whole; they were to be made thoroughly efficient workmen, and those who became the more skilful, or by their thrift managed to accumulate a little money, always had the chance of becoming masters and employers of labour. Throughout the scheme there ran the thread which gave life and essence to the whole - that real, rational harmony which ought to exist between all parts of the vast industrial machine. 3084 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - The industries were small then. 3084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - I am quite prepared to admit that one cannot push an analogy between the conditions of 400 and 500 years ago and the conditions of the present century beyond a certain point. I admit that in many ways the conditions then were very different; the businesses were small, and so was the capital involved in each particular industry, and the number of men employed. 3084 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - And the employer knew his men then. 3084 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - I am glad the honorable member has made that interjection. I agree entirely with what the honorable member desires to point out, as I gather from what he says, namely, that the great difficulty of modern industrial arrangements arises from the fact that the employments are so large that the master is often not in sufficiently close touch with his own men. That is a fact known to all of us, and it creates one of the greatest difficulties in attempting to deal with modern industrial conditions. But this does not exempt us from the duty of endeavouring to find, as applying to the new circumstances, some method of dealing with industrial conditions which shall be, not only rational and workable, but just to all sections of the people: 3085 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Just! 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Just. 3085 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The Attorney-General talks about justice after what we saw in this Parliament yesterday ! 3085 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER R. - Order ! 3085 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - If the Attorney-General wishes to see justice done, let him reverse the decision of yesterday. 3085 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER R.- The honorable member for Grey is distinctly out of order, and I appeal to him to remember my obligation to carry the Standing Orders into effect. Mr. Anstey(to Mr. Poynton). - Go out of the chamber ! 3085 K4E 0 0 CONROY, Alfred Mr Conroy - On the next occasion the honorable member will go out for a week ! 3085 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey y. - And the honorable member for Werriwa also ! 3085 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER - Will the honorable member for Bourke be silent? 3085 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr Anstey - I wished to draw your attention to the remark of the honorable member for Werriwa. 3085 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER R. - I cannot allow those frivolous remarks to continue. I am a sufficiently old parliamentary hand to know when an honorable member is in earnest and when he is indulging in frivolity; and I trust that it will not be necessary to insist in a more effective fashion on the Standing Orders being observed. 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - No one will admit more readily than I the immense difficulties that confront us in attempting a solution, from any point of view, of the industrial and capitalistic question which arises, not merely in this country, but in every other civilized country in the world. One of the difficulties undoubtedly arises from the aggregation of employment to which reference has been made, and there are other great difficulties. I refer by analogy to the guilds of the Middle Ages for the purpose merely of pointing out that in those times the cooperation of workers was based on a fundamental recognition of the principle that they existed, not solely for themselves, but for the community as a whole. I am not going to say anything on the question of the efficiency of existing unionists. We hear all kinds of things said, but, personally, I am not in a position to speak, because I do not know anything of the matter. But I do know that, since about the year 1890, present trade unionism has, unfortunately, taken a totally new turn in its development. 3085 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - It is absolutely necessary for self-preservation. 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - I am glad to find that my statement of a simple fact evokes a chorus of approval; bub whatever the results may be, the facts are undoubtedly true. Until the year 1890 the operations of unionism were purely industrial organization, but since 1890 - approximately from the time of the London dock strike and the shipping strike in Australia - the whole trend of unionism has taken a new course. The honorable member for Dalley has interjected once or twice that he belongs to an old union that still, I believe, adheres very largely, as some other unions do, to what I cannot help believing is the true principle of industrial unionism, and which marked the earlier development of unions; but since that time a new element has appeared in unionism, and the unions - a large number of them - especially in Australia, have ceased to rely so much on ordinary methods of industrial organization, as on making their unions the fighting regiments of political warfare. Honorable members have agreed with me in that statement of fact. I do not intend to occupy any time in condemning such a thing. I am not mentioning it for such a purpose; I merely set it out as a fact, and because it is not without its significance in connexion with the Bill now before the House. A question which I should like to ask some of my friends opposite is - what do the unions offer the community in return for the monopoly they desire to get? 3085 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley -Industrial peace. 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - Ah ! I felt sure " industrial peace " would be the answer. 3085 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - It is merely a gramophone answer. 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- "The millennium of industrial peace in which there shall be no strife." 3085 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - There will never be industrial peace in the present state of society. Strife is absolutely necessary. Without discontent there is no improvement. 3085 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Of course, I know that honorable members opposite always coo like doves about industrial peace in the House; but is it always so outside? Do they say that they are prepared to take away absolutely from the workers under all conditions the right to strike ? 3086 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Never! 3086 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe e. - We stand by it, and fight for it every time. 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I am glad to hear that plain and candid admission from the honorable member for Dalley. We have heard it from others. Let me tell the honorable member that I am with him on that point. I say that the time is not yet ripe in industrial development when we can, by law, effectually prohibit strikes under all forms and conditions. I have said it in this House and outside the House on mere than one occasion, and I repeat it again. But the consideration which honorable members opposite say they are going to give for the monopoly they claim is that there shall be a cessation of strikes. In 1904 the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act was passed, and in the very forefront of that measure was section 6, which provides - No person or organization shall, on account of any industrial dispute, do anything in the nature of a lock-out or strike, or continue any lock-out or strike. and now, though honorable members placed that provision on the statute-book, they say that they are not in favour of enforcing it. 3086 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Who says it? 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Honorable members say that we cannot prohibit strikes. 3086 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Who said that? 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE The honorable member for Dalley said it, and the honorable member for Maranoa has said it. 3086 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We are in favour of arbitration as opposed to strikes. 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member for Maranoa, on page 116 of Volume LX. of our Hansard, used these words - The right to strike is the only weapon the workman has, and we are not going to give that up. 3086 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - His union has given it up. 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- Senator Rae,a leading member of the Labour party, on the 14th September, 1911, is reported, on page 431 of the same volume of Hansard, to have said - My object in making the quotation- It was a quotation from a London correspondent relating to some troubles at Home - is to show that, until we get an absolutely effective system of arbitration - one under which we shall not suffer from the law's delays, and take months and months, very often, to get a partial or ineffective verdict - until we secure a very radical reform in the sweated conditions of the workers, even in sunny Australia, men will resort, whether I approve of it or not, to strikes as a reserve power. Can an opinion be more freely expressed that the prohibition embodied in our Statute is a nullity and a farce? There is a newspaper called The Worker, published in Sydney, which is supposed to represent some of the views of the party to which honorable members opposite belong. 3086 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - You have often read it. It has amused you. 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - It has amused me, but it sometimes makes one think. I see that in the issue of the 9th January, 1913, under the heading of " Coming Strikes," this paper says - Don't be surprised if 1913 presents us with some of the greatest strikes on record. It i» not difficult to foresee that in every country where capitalism tyrannises, there will be revolts against the tyranny. About a year and a-half ago, there was a congress of New South Wales trade unionists. I do not suppose honorable members will dispute that this was a fairly representative body. It was the fourth annual congress, and the report of the proceedings is given in The Worker of the 13th June, 1912. Under the heading of "The Right to Strike," it points out that a proposal waa made by a Mr. A. Lewis, of the Northern Colliery Employes Federation. The motion, the division on the motion, and the amendment that was carried are rather significant; and I call the attention of honorable members to what actually occurred. The motion was - That we demand the repeal of all industrial legislation that takes away the right of combination and the right to strike. After a lengthy debate, the motion was not carried, because the numbers were even. 3086 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Well, it was not. carried. 3086 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- No, it was not carried, but it is a rather significant fact that the motion that all industrial legislation that did not reserve the right to strike should be repealed obtained the support of a full half of the members of that thoroughly representative body. Now observe the terms of the determination finally adopted by the majority. It was an amendment moved by a Mr. Morrish - That pending the establishment of the Federation of Labour, present industrial legislation be allowed to stand. This legislation has been, it would appear, accepted merely as a stepping-stone to something further. If it is a steppingstone to syndicalism, I object to it. If it is a stepping-stone in which, under the plea that the party are honestly endeavouring to bring about industrial peace, they seek to attain to a position of affairs in which they will not be governed by this industrial legislation, then I say it is a matter particularly pertinent to the inquiry whether it is just or not to give preference to industrial unionism. I ask the pertinent question - What do the members of the unions offer to the community in return for the monopoly of Government employment, which they demand at the hands of the community? And the answer is, industrial peace. But that is only until another step is reached. Since the Labour Government that adopted that policy climbed into power three and a half years ago, I venture to think that there have been more breaches of industrial peace than there had been for almost a generation previously. 3087 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is incorrect. 3087 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Do honorable members on the other side really claim that any condition approaching general industrial peace has been introduced? 3087 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Can you say whether any decision given by Mr. Justice Higgins has been violated by the workers? 3087 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I do not know. I am not dealing with decisions given by Mr. Justice Higgins. There have been more strikes- 3087 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - It is the same all over the world. 3087 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- That is perfectly true. The condition is not confined to Australia, but applies all over the world. All that I say is that if any particular section claims that the Government should, in the administration of public funds, give them preference over their fellow citizens, they are bound to show some real consideration for it. Can it be said that there is no political connexion between those unionists who claim that Government money is to be expended in giving employment to them in priority to their fellow-citizens, and the honorable members who supported the Government which gave them preference ? Do they not move, live, and have their being in political unionism, and in claiming this preference are they not really making a claim against the Government funds in support of their constituents who send them into this House ? I made this statement before, and the honorable member for Darling replied to it on a certain occasion not very long ago. I supported what I said by reference to the expenditure of the money of some of these unions and the returns of the accounts, and the honorable member brought out in reply to my contention a synopsis which he made of the whole of the expenditure for the last twenty-five years of the very powerful and representative union of which he is the president. 3087 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - Watered down for a period of twenty -five years. 3087 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster r. - I draw your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the interjection of the honorable member for Wannon. 3087 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - I ask for the withdrawal of the interjection. That report was genuine, and audited by public accountants. 3087 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER R. - I did not hear the interjection, but if the honorable member made anything in the nature of a reflection, either on the House generally or on an honorable member, I must ask him to withdraw it. 3087 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I withdraw it; but I do not know of any statement that I made to which the honorable member could take objection. The honorable member does not know what I said. He must have been asleep. 3087 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- The figures which were cited by the honorable member for Darling as a proof that the powerful union of which he is the president was not engaged to any great extent in political warfare did not seem to me to support that contention. At present I have not the reference in Hansard, but honorable members can look it up. 3087 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - This Bill does not affect the Australian Workers Union. 3087 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The Australian Workers Union, which is registered as a union under the Arbitration Act, is a union of workmen, any one of whom may at any time be engaged in Government employment. It depends on the character of work that the Government takes up. 3088 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - I desire to raise a point of order. I do not want to limit the scope of the honorable member's remarks in any way, but simply desire to ask that we shall be allowed to cover the same ground as he is covering. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable member can describe the nature of unions. 3088 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Will you allow the Speaker to say so ? 3088 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - The honorable member for West Sydney is out of order. No point of order has been raised, and no objection has been taken to anything that has been said. The honorable member has simply intervened in the middle of an honorable member's speech to ask me a question. 3088 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - If you desire it I will take a point of order. Are the honorable member's remarks with reference to the whole field of arbitration and all matters incidental to industrial organization in order? I only want it made perfectly clear. I do not wish to limit him in the slightest degree, but ask in fairness that, as you have allowed him to go so far, and if he wishes to go on, we shall be allowed to travel over the same ground. We only want the same latitude as has been accorded to him. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE ine.- The object of the Bill is to prohibit preference and discrimination being given in the Public Service to members of political or industrial associations. I shall endeavour to show that it is unjust to give such preference. 3088 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We are not objecting to your doing so. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE ine. - I do not object to the honorable member dealing with that point either. I do not know why the point of order has been raised. 3088 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Bill provides that no preference or discrimination shall be made for or against any person in relation to any employment by the Commonwealth, or by any Department, or authority thereof on account of the membership or non-membership of any political or industrial organization. The scope of the discussion must necessarily be limited by the terms of the Bill itself. 3088 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I rise to ask you, sir, and to ask the Attorney-General, and the Government, if, as the Attorney-General is travelling over the whole field of unionism, we may take it that the same scope will be allowed during the whole of the debate? 3088 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook k. - No, you don't. You asked for it, and you got it. 3088 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Does the Attorney-General agree with that? 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I agree with what the Prime Minister says. 3088 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - Is there one among you manly enough to speak out?. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It is quite impossible for members on either side of the House to discuss whether preference shall given to unionists without discussing the nature of unionism. I never suggested for a moment that either side of the House should give up its right to do so. 3088 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - The honorable member should address his remarks to his Prime Minister. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - So far as I know, the Prime Minister has said nothing inconsistent with my statement. When the point of order was taken, I was saying that one representative and important union is not merely a political organization, but is in direct connexion with the party which was recently in power and is now in Opposition. I have here the report of a speech delivered in this House on the 19th August by the honorable member for Darling - it is to be found at page 259 of the Hansard records of this session - in which he gives a balance-sheet of the receipts and expenditure of the union for a period of twenty-five years, the last year included being 1911. This statement shows that, amongst other expenditure, there was paid to organizers- 3088 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable member cannot quote the official report of the debates of this session. 3088 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R. - The honorable member will not be in order in quoting the official records of the debates of this session. 3088 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I suppose I shall be in order in referring to the figures contained in the balance-sheet. In it the following items are included: - " By organizers' wages and expenses, £53,227." It cannot be said that all that money was expended for nonpolitical purposes. 3089 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - The Liberal party has spent more in one year. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- The question is not what has been spent. The honorable member is entitled to assume, if he likes, that political organizations on both sides have spent large sums - I do not know whether that is so or not - but that is not the question which I am asking the House to consider. The question is whether this union, of which the honorable member for Darling is president, is a political association. I come to another item in the balance-sheet, " By Worker and other co-operative works, £85,622." I take it that the Worker referred to is one or both of the newspapers of that name published in Sydney and in Brisbane. It cannot for a moment be suggested that either of those newspapers is an organ of industrial, and not of political, development. 3089 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - What are the Herald. Telegraph, Argus, and Age? Are they industrial organs? 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - They are political organs as well. I am not questioning the right of the union to spend money in this way, but I say that spending it so, it cannot claim to be a purely industrial, non-political organization. 3089 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - We are rather proud of being political. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE . - Another item in the balance-sheet is, " By donations to other unions, £34,961 "; and, again, " By political and parliamentary, £14,360." No man who has had any experience of public affairs can read these figures without coming to the conclusion that a very great portion, if not the bulk, of the money subscribed by the members of the Australian Workers "Union has been employed for political purposes to secure the election of members to this Parliament. 3089 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - That is the statement that the honorable member made a few months ago, but he cannot prove it. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - The honorable member wants proof, and I can give him only a little, but it is good as far as it goes. 3089 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - The Attorney-General cannot prove against the unions of this country that they spend their funds on political purposes. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE. - There has been a by-election since the law was passed requiring organizations to make returns of their electoral expenditure, and a good many returns have also been submitted in connexion with the last general election, but they are not complete, whereas those for the Werriwa by-election, to which I refer, are complete. I am using now figures which were published in the Melbourne evening Herald, but I have taken the trouble to verify them by a reference to the original return in the possession of the Department of Home Affairs. I find that the total expenditure of the Labour candidate for the Werriwa division was just under £100, of which amount £62 13s. 6d. was contributed by the central branch of the Australian Workers Union, Orange. Two-thirds of the expenditure of the Labour candidate during that electoral campaign was borne by the union of which the honorable member for Darling is the head. 3089 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - We are proud of being political. I have never denied it. 3089 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe e. - I only wish that we were more political. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I am prepared to accept those admissions. If honorable members say that the unions are political, that they are their political supporters and constituents- 3089 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - They are not all political. 3089 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE INE.- I believe that they are not all political, but, since 1890, the trend of trade unionism in Australia has been for the unions to become more political than industrial. No one questions the right of the unions, if they choose, to spend their money on political purposes, but, being political associations, have they the right to claim from a Government which they helped to put into power positions for their members in the service of the country, paid out of the public funds of the country? If they have the right to do that, we on our side have the right to reward our political supporters with public office at the country's expense. I shall not occupy time in discussing the matter further. The issue, as I said at the beginning, is a very simple one. It is for Parliament once, and I hope finally, to decide that no future Government in Australia shall adopt the rotten and injurious principle of rewarding its own supporters, or of holding out baits to future supporters, out of the public funds, -which are contributed to by the taxpayers of the whole community. 3090 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I wish to make a personal explanation. When the Attorney-General referred to a balance-sheet which had been prepared by the honorable member for Darling, showing the application of the funds of the Australian Workers Union for a period of twenty-five years, I interjected that the statement watered down the situation. It was not my desire to reflect on the honorable member for Darling or on the balance-sheet. I merely wished it to be understood that, as the balance-sheet covered a period of a quarter of a century, instead of being confined to more recent years, in which the Labour situation has been acute, it does not put the position as strongly as it could be put. 3090 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- I presume that there will be no objection to an adjournment of the debate. 3090 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - The measure is a very simple one. We can go on. 3090 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Attorney-General has also indicated that it is a very simple Bill, yet in his speech he roamed all over the world, and scanned, at least, five centuries of guild enterprise and legislation to show that what the Government propose is to preserve the individual rights of every member of ' the community. What he has shown is that there is something in the Bill about which he said nothing. In mild, gentle, and plaintive language he stated that the party on this side lives, moves, and has its being in industrial, political unionism. 3090 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - In political unionism. 3090 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- Well, I leave out the word " industrial." The honorable member's attack, however, was not on political unionism, but on industrial unionism. Under cover of the plea that unions have sometimes political views, he is going to destroy unionism if he can - the same unionism which was ably supported, trained, directed, and cared for by the Prime Minister. The honorable gentleman worked himself into a state of excitement, which was unusual for him, declaring that no Government has the right to discriminate between the employment of unionists and non-unionists in the Public Service. I do not agree with him, and I think that this party disagrees with him; but, as he is prepared to make the matter an issue for the determination of the constituencies, I say, on behalf of this party, that we are prepared to accept his challenge, and the sooner the better. The honorable gentleman is prepared to exclude permanent and temporary employes in the Public Service of the Commonwealth from the protection of a law of this country which is afforded to unionists in the employment of private persons. What right have the Government or Parliament to enact laws prescribing the conditions and wages of labour, and the advantages to be conferred upon workmen belonging to organizations, and, while enforcing those laws upon private employers, to refuse to make the conditions provided for applicable to the employment of unionists by the State? The Attorney-General and the Government are quite inconsistent in taking up the attitude they have adopted in this Bill. 3090 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr Patten - Surely every award does not include preference to unionists? 3090 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - That is so; but does the honorable member say that because every award does not include preference to unionists, that an award of the Federal Arbitration Court giving preference to unionists should not apply if the unionists are employed in the Government service? 3090 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr Patten - No; but I say that no award should include preference to unionists. 3090 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - The Attorney-General contends that unionists, if employed hy the Commonwealth Government, shall not enjoy the advantages of an award of preference granted by a Judge of the High Court. The honorable member for Hume would not approve of that which the Attorney-General and the Prime Minister are submitting in the terms of this Bill. The Prime Minister's followers do not agree with the principles, if they can be called principles, which are laid down in this measure. When the honorable member for Hume is free to express his own opinions, without knowing the policy of the Government, on this matter he is frankly against them, but when we come to deal with the matter as an issue to which the Government are committed, I venture to say, from our experience of the honorable member, that we shall find him voting docilely with the Government. 3090 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr Patten - That is gratuitous. I have said that, personally, my opinion is that we should not allow preference to unionists in any award. 3091 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts tts. - " Scab " labour is what the honorable member wants. 3091 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - If the honorable member and his friends would not allow preference to unionists in any award given by the Court established by this Parliament for that specific purpose, let me ask what is the view on 'this matter held by the Minister of Trade and Customs, and the honorable members for Kooyong, Eden-Monaro, and Wimmera? All these members supported legislation to provide for conciliation and arbitration in industrial affairs. They assisted to pass measures framed with the object of enabling a Court to determine disputes that had arisen, or might arise, between employers and employes. They were members, or supporters, of the Government that passed this legislation, and are they now behind the present Government in the proposal before the House, and behind the honorable member for Hume in the view he has expressed ? Do they now propose to deprive unionists employed upon public works of the rights conferred by Federal legislation, which they assisted to pass, upon unionists employed by private citizens 1 3091 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The honorable member's Government swept away all the safeguards of that legislation. 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - So far from sweeping away all the safeguards, we enlarged the scope of the measure, and imposed no disability upon any one. 3091 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - But the honorable gentleman knows very well that his Government swept those safeguards away. 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I say that we did not. We extended the principle of arbitration, and we called upon employers and employes alike to form themselves into organizations. We extended the scope of the law, which was passed by this Parliament, and has twice been indorsed by the people at general elections. In the course of his lengthy and carefully-prepared speech, which was, no doubt, effectively delivered, from his own point of view, by the Attorney-General, the honorable gentleman carefully avoided dealing with persons outside governmental preference to unionists. He abstained from telling the people that these laws have been passed by the Federal Parliament to promote the organization of both capital and labour. The party on this side believe that there can be no hope of industrial peace, and little hope of continued industrial, political, and social progress, unless both employers and employes are organized, and in a position to present a united case to the Court. On the question of the Government managing industrial affairs, I have, from the first time I spoke in this Parliament, contended that a Government and a Parliament are incompetent bodies to deal with industrial affairs. This Parliament wisely, in my opinion, transferred to the Conciliation and Arbitration Court, with one exception, the powers and duties of Government and Parliament in fixing the rates of wages and conditions of labour. This legislation has worked exceptionally well in Australia. In the Public Service of the Commonwealth we have employed about 29,000 persons, and, I think, three-sevenths of the number are casual or temporary employes. I believe the true figures are about 17,000 permanent employes and 12,238 temporary or casual employes, making a grand total of 29,238. 3091 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - There are a great many more than that. 3091 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Are those figures up to date? 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - These are definite figures of the number df persons in Government employment as may be seen from the last Public Service Commissioner's report. 3091 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - I understood the number was over 19,000 two or three years ago. 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Do the Government propose in this Bill to prevent temporary employes in the service of the Government obtaining preference under an award by the Federal Arbitration Court? 3091 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We prevent the Government giving any preference to unionists. 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Not only the Government, but any agency of the Government.. 3091 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - And any agency of the Government, of course. 3091 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I expected that the Attorney-General would have made his position definite and clear in words that could be understood by every one. We are to understand that if Mr. Justice Higgins, presiding over the Federal Conciliation and Arbitration Court, established under law by this Parliament, makes an award giving preference to unionists, that award under this Bill would not be effective in securing preference to unionists who are casual employes engaged upon public works. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The right honorable gentleman means in a dispute between the Government and their casual employes ? 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Yes; or even in the case of a pending dispute. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Yes, certainly; the Bill would cover that. 3092 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley y. - The Government have introduced a Bill to enable them to ignore an award of the Arbitration Court. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - We are getting closer to what is contained in this Bill. The railway enterprises of the Commonwealth will probably involve the employment of thousands of workmen of every kind. 3092 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Why should unionists have preference in that employment? 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - I am not asking the honorable member for Wilmot why they should, or should not, be given preference, but I wish the public to know what the Attorney-General did not tell this House and the country, and that is, that thousands of men will be employed in the construction of the transcontinental railway who, because they will be Government employes, working under Government officials, will be deprived of the benefit of an award of preference to unionists granted by the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I am not quite sure that I understood the right honorable gentleman's question. Will he give a concrete instance ? 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - I can give the honorable gentleman a concrete instance. In the ordinary course of administration there will be a large number of employes engaged upon public works, under public officers of the railways and other Departments. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - The honorable gentleman means temporary employes. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - For instance, I take the construction of the transcontinental railway. There is a large number of men employed on that work at the present time. 3092 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - And every one of them is a trade unionist. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- That is not my point at present. They are working, not under contractors, but directly under departmental officers, and, as I read this Bill, they will be considered for all practical purposes as temporary Government employes. As the wording of the Bill prohibits any departmental officer from granting preference at all in regard to employment under his Department, even an award of the Conciliation and Arbitration Court will not reach these men in the employ of the Government. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - If men are in the Government employment, the order for preference cannot have any effect upon them. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- I say quite off-hand that the men are in the employ of the Government. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It has no application in that case. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- What are they, then? Why is there all this shuffling by legal men as to the position of the men ? If the men are engaged by Government officers to do Government work in or under a Government Department, and are paid with Government money, surely they are in the employ of the Government? 3092 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - On the other hand, if doing the same work and paid with the same money, the men were working for a contractor, they could go to the Arbitration Court, and get an award. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- I anticipated that point by declaring that the Bill discriminates by providing that persons working under Government officers at similar work and under like conditions shall not get the rights that belong to workmen in private employment. 3092 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I said that. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Is there an honorable member who heard that? 3092 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Surely that is not intended. 3092 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- That is the effect of the Bill. The Attorney-General carefully avoided saying it in those words. I do not even say that he cunningly avoided doing so, but, lawyer-like, he skilfully evaded that issue. .Men in Government employment will not get an award that can be given by the Judge of the Arbitration Court to men who are working under a contractor for the Government, as the honorable member for Grey has pointed out. Is that a fair position to take up ? 3093 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I do not understand your question yet. If you refer to men who are in Government employment, this Bill will have no effect upon them. If you refer to the Government employing persons and choosing whom they shall employ - casual or temporary employes, who are not in Government employment - it will apply directly to them; they will get no preference. 3093 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- Order ! I would remind the House that this is not a dialogue. 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I feel sure that, with your permission, sir, honorable members will be glad to get as full and clear a statement of the position as it is possible to obtain. The Attorney-General was not clear upon that point. He wain perfectly clear on the other point. As regards the fact that the Government -should not give preference to unionists directly employed by them, he took care to put the State on a pedestal. He said, in effect, ' ' When dealing with State money the Government have no right to discriminate between citizen and citizen." In my opinion he has not looked at our own laws, in which we do discriminate. As regards the Public Service, for instance, the law provides that no youth can enter the Public Service of the Commonwealth unless he has performed his duty as a cadet under the Defence Act - that is, if he is fit to serve. Why should we discriminate between that one and another one? As regards unionists, the Attorney-General acknowledges that they are the best men. He admits that every body of able workmen will organize, and advises them to do so. He did not tell the House that, from the earliest ages, unionists have had to fight their way through the bitterest of opposition, nor did he say that unionists have organized their own societies and brought that organization to a stage which enables Courts to deal with them effectively, economically, and with advantage both to themselves and to the employers. The honorable gentleman proposes, as far as he is able, to destroy all that has been done by not allowing preference, and so preventing Government employes from getting the advantage they would get if employed privately. The Minister of Trade and Customs need not shake his head. If the Bill means anything, it means that. It is striking at the very principle of unionism. 3093 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Surely that is not intended! 3093 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton n. - Of course it is. 3093 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - It is not intended, and the Bill does not do that. 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - The honorable member for Eden-Monaro may make that remark, but that is what the Bill says. 3093 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Will you show how it hits unionism at all? 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- May I say to the honorable member, before we adjourn for dinner, that, in my opinion, the Bill does two particular things. First, it prevents any Ministerial grant of preference to unionists in any circumstances, and, second, it prohibits a Court established by the Commonwealth Parliament from giving preference to any Government employe of any kind whatever. 3093 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Do you say that it prohibits preference to unionists? 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - The honorable gentleman was talking to the Attorney-General while I was speaking, and, for his information, I repeat that, in my opinion, the Bill does two things. First, it prevents a Ministerial grant of preference to unionists, and, second, it prevents quite as effectively preference to unionists being given by law - given honestly by a Court's decision. It prevents workmen, in Government employment from getting the benefit of that award. Does the Minister of Trade and Customs deny that? 3093 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - That would not prevent people from .joining unions. They could still enter unions as freely as ever. 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- Does the honorable member believe that that is a right thing? 3093 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - You used the words " Preference being given by law to workmen in Government employment." You mean no special class, do you? 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- They may be unionists or they may be workmen. If there were some workmen not unionists the Bill would apply to them. If they were unionists it would not apply. Obviously that is what it says. 3093 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - And non-unionists would get preference. 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- Certainly, for the reason that they had not committed the offence of joining and being in a union. 3093 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - That is their object. 3093 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - That is the object of the Government. Sitting suspended from 6.S0 to745 p.m. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - When the sitting was suspended I was addressing myself to the question of the scope and effect of this email measure. As far as I could ascertain from the friendly interjections of the Attorney-General and the Minister of Trade and Customs - the two legal members of the Government present - the Attorney-General holds one view and the Minister of Trade and Customs another. 3094 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - I did not express any view whatever. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - That makes my case all the stronger. The Attorney-General stated that what I put forward as a layman's opinion of the Bill was correct. The actual wording of the measure is as follows : - No preference or discrimination shall be made for or against any person in relation to any employment by the Commonwealth or by any Department or authority thereof, on account of his membership or non-membership of any political or industrial association. I maintain that this Bill will discriminate as between two parties of employes who may be working upon the same railway. Let us assume that the Government employ certain contractors to undertake a portion of the work of railway construction. The workmen who are employed by the contractors, who receive their money through a' Commonwealth Department, may- if they resort to the Conciliation and Arbitration Court which has been established under Statute - obtain an award granting preference to unionists. 3094 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr Patten - And they may not. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - It is obtainable, because that is the purpose of existing legislation. But what will be the effect of this Bill upon employés who are working directly under departmental officers, and who are paid by them? Being Government employés, they will not be able to share in any such award by the Conciliation and Arbitration Court. Do honorable members say that that is a fair proposition for the Government to bring forward? Do they contend that legislation of this kind will not discriminate between unionists and non-unionists in respect of Government work? It used to be the policy of every party in this Parliament to insure that the Commonwealth Government should be the very best employer in the country. But it is not so now. 3094 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Oh, yes. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - From the time of the memorable Fusion that party has hit the toiling working classes by every possible means. 3094 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Just give one illustration. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - Since the present Government came into office they have done everything they could to court the smile and favour of trusts, combines, and monopolies. 3094 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - Give us one instance. 3094 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - The opportunity is not afforded us to give instances. Recently we were prepared to give instances when we were closured. To-night, when my time is limited, honorable members opposite wish me to fritter it away by giving useless instances which are already known to everybody. The very object for which the Fusion was brought into existence was to stem the rising tide of organized labour. Honorable members opposite said so quite openly. It was one of the questions on which they appealed to the country, and, largely by wilful misstatements to the electors regarding our position, they were returned to office. Tonight the Attorney-General, in a very dramatic way, exclaimed, " This is the issue upon which we want to go to the country!" I say, " Go ' ' - and, again "Go." They ought not to swagger around like young children, declaring that they are going to do this, that, and the other, and then employ every device to keep honorable members . from getting to the country. The object of this Bill is to crush industrial unionism. The Attorney-General is wiser than are some honorable members sitting behind him. He took care to safeguard himself by declaring that organized labour throughout Australia was composed of the very best workmen - the most capable workmen - and he added that it was a natural law of human progress that caused the best men to band themselves together. If that be true in regard to the best men, how much more necessary is it for us to protect those who are not even unionists? In our most militant times, not only have we protected the unionists, but have fought for the non-unionists, too. 3094 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - We are doing that all the time. 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The insidious attempt which is being made to lead people to believe that unionists fight only for themselves in the Courts, and by means of legislation, is absolutely unwarranted, and has not a single fact to support it. The unionists have pioneered every piece of legislation which has made life tolerable and worth living. 3095 KXU 0 0 PATTEN, Robert Mr Patten - Even by calling non-unionists " scabs." 3095 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- Order ! I have several times called honorable members to order, and I must insist upon silence being preserved. I do not propose to be continually calling "Order!" 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The Treasurer supported the principle in favour of which I am now speaking, and if we knew his mind, I believe it would be found that he supports it to-day. 3095 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - If he were Prime Minister, we should get a fair deal. 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- I do not wish to bring the Prime Minister into it. It is not necessary to do so. He has brought himself into it. No man ever used stronger language than he has used regarding non-unionists. No man ever paraded himself as the great pillar who would oppose non-unionists in every way more than he did. He has stated in this House that while he was in the pay of a union he took good care that no non-unionist was allowed to work with unionists. He has said that they took summary action to prevent that being done. What is he doing to-day ? He does not avow that he has altered his opinions by one iota. He does not confess that he thinks differently to-day. Indeed, he says that he is prepared to do for every one what he was prepared to do for unionists. The Bill before us will discriminate between unionists and non-unionists to the detriment of the former. The Prime Minister has stated again and again that unionists have had to submit to all the sneers and the sufferings which are the lot of pioneers. After unionists have enlightened the people, are they not entitled to the same rights as other persons? The Attorney-General traversed the action of the late Government in saying that there should be preference to unionists in Government employ, other things being equal. Why should there not be, other things being equal? The honorable gentleman has admitted that they are the best men. 3095 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - He did not; he referred to political unionists. 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- The Attorney- General stated that unionists gave the best return for the money which they received. Why, then, should they not be granted a preference? But that is not the only reason. All our parliamentary and industrial institutions are founded upon the basis that, in modern times, it is impossible to deal with the individual. As we are unable to deal with the individual, it is the duty of an intelligent Parliament to do everything that it possibly can to organize capital and to organize labour. 3095 KES 0 0 FALKINER, Franc Mr Falkiner - And will honorable members opposite allow the unionist to vote as he thinks fit? 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - Yes. May I encourage the honorable member by volunteering the further statement that unionists are usually sufficiently intelligent and independent to do that for themselves ? 3095 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - They cannot do it in the case of strikes. 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R- There have been fewer disastrous strikes since the advent of Federation, and under our complex system of industrial arbitration, than there ever were before. 3095 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - And there should be. 3095 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - And there have been less and less disasters. The outstanding feature of that legislation is to the lasting credit of the Parliament which enacted it, and of the great Judge who has primarily administered it. But most of all, is it creditable to the good sense of organized labour throughout Australia? Not one of the awards which have been given - irrespective of whether unionists have approved them or not - has been violated by the parties concerned. What can we say of honorable members opposite ? It is but a few years since they pledged themselves to the country, and violated every pledge they had made for the sake of office. See the difference. Unionists stand by their awards, whether they approve of them or not, because of their respect for the law. Fusionists in politics, on the other hand, have violated every pledge that they gave to the country for the sake of gaining temporary place and power, and now that they have temporarily regained office, they are seeking by every means to hit at organized labour, not directly and straightforwardly, but in a politically insidious and indirect way. Why should we have a Bill dealing with this matter drafted in such terms that the Attorney-General and the honorable member for Darling Downs have to consult before they can say what it means? A Government having in its ranks five members of the legal profession should certainly know the meaning of a Bill of this kind; and if they wish to place it before the public in a straightforward way, they can do so. The Attorney-General played nicely to the gallery when he said that if preference to unionists were given by Government edict, Australia would soon reach the position of the United States of America in the matter of the spoils to the victors. No one knows better than does the Attorney-General that the American system recognises that principle. It is not the principle of the spoils to unionists, but rather the principle of the spoils to the political helpers. 3096 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - A parallel. 3096 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- The parallel is complete on the Government side of the House, because if one Labour sympathizer were appointed during our term of office, honorable members opposite immediately objected to the appointment. We appointed three, and honorable members opposite tried to rouse the whole country upon the question. Not one Labour supporter has been appointed by the present Government since they came into office, and they do not intend to appoint one. They believe in the policy of the spoils to the victors. Honorable members opposite know how to give effect to that policy, but, like all persons of little virtue, they parade very much that which they have. When speaking of arbitration, I am disposed to ask the Government and their supporters whether they are apprehensive of the way in which the Conciliation and Arbitration Acts are being administered by the distinguished Justices who are called upon to deal with them ? The time has not long passed since we heard Mr. Justice Higgins denounced in this Chamber because of what were considered to be his liberal judgments in favour of the unionists. The honorable member for Parkes, to do him justice, was quite ready to, and frequently did, express his views on this question in a straightforward manner. In my opinion, the great Judge, who has been the second to hold the distinguished position of President of the Conciliation and Arbitration Court of Australia, has done a great deal for Australia. His judgments are acknowledged in every part of the world to be of the first order. Let me quote briefly what was written of Mr. Justice Higgins and his work by Professor M. B. Hammond, of the Ohio State University, in an article published in the American Economic Review in June last - The strong expressions of opinion are due rather to the fact that he (Mr. Justice Higgins) sees so clearly the fallacy in the assumption that freedom of contract exists in reality between the individual labourer, without property, and the modern employer with the vast resources at his command. The position of an Arbitration Court Judge is by no means an enviable one. He is sure to be accused of prejudice either by employers as a class or by the employes. Mr. Justice Sim, of the New Zealand Court, is as unpopular with employés as is Mr. Justice Higgins with employers, and with as little reason, for the minimum wage fixed by the New Zealand Court is from1s. to 2s. per day above that thus far adhered to by Mr. Justice Higgins, and Mr. Justice Sim has pushed the doctrine of preference to unionists farther than has been done by any of his predecessors or in any Court that I know of. Having read carefully all of Mr. Justice Higgins' decisions, and having discussed these matters at great length with him in conversation, I feel warranted in saying that he gives no evidence of bias, and I believe that most economists will agree with me that the principles on which he has based his judgments ' are fundamentally sound, and that he has, with relentless logic, argued his way to safe and sane conclusions. And this is what is said by ate impartial critic of the President of the Court to which we ask Parliament to allow every employe to appeal, whether he be a State employe or not. I wish again to state my opinion in this House regarding the competency of a Government, and more particularly of a Parliament, to settle rates of wages and conditions of labour. Honorable members who have had experience of the work of dealing with the Estimates, either as Ministers or private members, will recognise that it is impossible for a body of representative men sitting here to deal with these matters in an equitable way. I have always maintained, and I maintain more and more to-day, that the State can trust itself to the Courts as safely as can a private employer, and that it ought to do so. The State has no right to assume that the Government of the country is capable of fixing wages and conditions of labour in connexion with the various work that it is carrying out whilst a private employer has to go to a Court if necessary to have them fixed for him. It is quite true that, in all circumstances, the Government of the country must have the last word regarding the matter of cost. It is for the Government of the day to say ultimately whether they can provide the money, but no sane democratic people would object to employes of the State being paid the wages, and receiving the conditions prescribed by a proper tribunal appointed by this or any other Parliament. It was said by the Attorney-General that since 1890 a new phase of unionism had appeared. I do not think that that is correct. Some of my honorable friends think it is, but I believe that the political phase of unionism is at least a century old. Not long after the middle of Wast century Thomas Burt, Alexander McDonald, and a whole array of others, came into Parliament. - not on Liberalism. 3097 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - On trade unionism. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - Trade unionism. They went into Parliament, as Mr. Will Crooks would say, as "a deputation in boots," to tell the people of the country of the -condition of the toiling masses. After they we're able to bring certain questions before Parliament and the people, the noble Lords, and more settled politicians, saw that there was something in their policy, and they, too, took It up. The position to-day is, in a relative sense, the same, but in this Democracy of ours we undoubtedly have organized labour. We have practically every adult possessed of the right to vote, and, possessing that right, they have sought new avenues to express their political views. The workers have organized themselves into a party, instead of returning separate individuals to speak for them in Parliament. Should the Government really object to that? Do they say that there is anything improper on the part of people who earn their money in pounds or shillings organizing for political purposes as against trusts, combines, or monopolies, or large employers - organizing themselves to return to Parliament a party to conserve their interests? What is there in that to which the Attorney-General can object ? Nothing whatever. His complaint is rather a compliment to the organized body of workers. The Attorney-General also asked what unionists gave in return for their claim to preference? My reply is that they have given their lives in the past, and tha£ they are giving their best services to every country in which they are organized. 3097 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We have all done that, but we do not claim Government preference. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- The honorable member is a distinguished member of his own profession, which is more exclusive than any other. 3097 JTI 0 0 BURNS, George Mr Burns - And protected by the law. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Protected, and rightly protected, in my opinion, by the law. 3097 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - The legal profession is open to every one who will pass a certain examination. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- Members of the legal profession are sheltered by the law. The honorable member says that the members of the legal profession have to pass an examination, but so has the artisan and the labourer. 3097 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - And a cabman has to pass an examination to get a licence. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R. - Every person of whom we are- speaking has to pass an examination, and is entitled to receive the same protection as the honorable member secures as a member of his profession. But, because it is not yet a popular thing to grant them that protection, the Government do not propose to do so. Why is it to be said of a man who has served seven years at his trade in order to become efficient, and to be recognised as efficient, that he has not passed an examination ? It may be that the examination which the lawyer has to pass - not from a literary or educational point of view - requires the exercise of less intellect than is required of the hardworking artisan who has to serve his time at his trade. Then, why should the one class have all the protection that the law can afford, while the other has none? What does the unionist give up for his preference ? He risks all that he possesses. He risks unpopularity. 3097 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - He buys popularity. 3097 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- He risks everything that is near and dear to him. If he is a prominent unionist his wife and children may be starving; but let him go to an employer, and with what reception does he meet? 3098 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The right honorable member is " talking through his neck." 3098 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - Am I? 3098 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - What about the wives and children of the non-unionists whom you would shut out ? 3098 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- I am glad of that interjection. The honorable member never knew a unionist to fight for conditions that he was not prepared to give absolutely to the non-unionists. 3098 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member for Darling says he would refuse non-unionists Christian burial. 3098 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH h. - Mr. Speaker, I beg to draw your attention to the conversations on the Government benches. The continuous interruptions are very disconcerting to those honorable members who desire to listen to the debate. 3098 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I once more call attention to the fact that interjections are disorderly, and I must ask honorable members to restrain their impetuosity. 3098 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The unionists have given everything, and have cheerfully done so- 3098 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - With a brick! 3098 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER R.- I have only just sat down after asking honorable members to observe order, and disorder immediately arises once more. I must insist that an honorable member has the right to the use of his full time in addressing the House. 3098 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - The unionists are prepared to make sacrifices for the sake of their fellows; otherwise, they would not be unionists. The Attorney-General has asked, What about the non-unionists? My reply is that they are provided for by Mr. Blackwood, late president of the Victorian Employers Federation. That gentleman, in London, publicly stated that organized capital had established a workmen's organization, which they supported, in order to look after non-unionists, not because they are the better workmen, but in order to break up unionism. That is a public statement by a gentleman who is the representative of what is called the " squattocracy," and of trusts and combines. As I say, this union has been established, not for the legitimate purpose of providing its members with employment, but for the purpose of breaking up unionism. Yet the Attorney-General has the courage to come here, and, with a straight face, declare that he believes in, and would encourage, unionism, although, as a matter of fact, his every effort, and the effort of those associated with him, is to make the lot of the unionist more miserable, dire, and difficult. If they had the power, they would deprive him of every advantage he has gained by the sacrifices he has made. That is the position of the Government - that is the object of the Government - and they declare that they have done away with Ministerial preference to unionists. 3098 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Hear, hearl 3098 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER R.- I do not say "Hear, hear ! ' ' That declaration has no value, and will have no effect - it is mere display, as the Attorney-General admitted. The honorable gentleman did not tell us that this Bill before us means any serious piece of legislation; and, in reality, it is merely an attempt, politically, to reach the people by prejudice. I close, as I began, by declaring that this trumpery piece of legislation - this attempt of the Government to appear as the saviours against a horde of unionists who are desirous to destroy the country - is a display of weakness and insincerity that is common to such Governments as this. The Government will continue on their way, despite anything we may say, unless political misfortune overcomes them; but if they have a spark of political manliness in them, or if they value the traditions of our race and country, as responsible for the carrying on of the government, they will cease to make declarations, and will act. We should appeal to the people, who alone can declare what shall be done, and we on this side shall welcome, and give every facility to the Government to enable, an appeal at. the earliest possible moment. 3098 KFK Darling Downs LP Minister of Trade and Customs 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - The Leader of the Opposition has made a number of pious declarations and general statements, but has evaded the main issue of the Bill. He has talked of everything but the principle underlying the measure. Before dealing with the Bill itself I should like to make one or two general statements. The right honorable member says that ever since this Government, or " Fusion," as he terms it, was formed, every effort has been made by us to put down the working classes and interfere with industrial conditions. I challenged the right honorable member at the time, and I challenge him again now, to mention one act of Parliament or one act of administration by Liberalism to the detriment of the working classes of Australia. Inferentially, the right honorable gentleman told us that the Attorney-General had not made a straightforward statement. This is a most remarkable allegation. Hardly a man who has spoken on this side has, in the opinion of the Leader of the Opposition, made a straightforward or frank statement. I do not question the right honorable member's honesty of purpose, but I object to his exclusive monopoly of self-righteousness in this Parliament. The Bill, first of all, clearly and distinctly makes no attack on industrial unionism of any kind whatever; there is not a single line in it which in any way infringes on legitimate unionism. In the second place, there is nothing in the Bill, so far as the general arbitration laws of Australia are concerned, which does an injury to organizations of capital or labour formed for the purpose of those Acts. The right honorable gentleman spent most of his time in1 speaking as though this Bill were confined solely to an attack on the arbitration laws. He forgets the most important aspect of the minute of the late Government which is assailed by this Bill. Up to 1910 our proud boast was that the only grounds to be taken into consideration for public employment were efficiency, merit, and fitness. Never was an appointment made except strictly in accordance with the principles laid down in the Public Service Act. In 1910, however, a new principle was introduced by the Labour Government. 3099 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best . - In 1910? 3099 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - It was in 1910, I believe. As a matter of fact, the principle had been in operation nearly nine months before it was made public by a deputation from the Trades Hall in 1911, and I think I remember the honorable member for Maranoa remarking on the number of unionists who, by the operation of the rule, were already in the Public Service, and how non-unionists could not be much hurt by it. It was about that time that the announcement was made public that, "other things being equal," preference would be given to unionists. I wish honorable members to realize that the Leader of the Opposition never once during his speech attempted to defend entry into the Public Service on the ground of preference to unionists; he avoided that issue right through, although it is the vital point, and was emphasized by the Attorney-General when he remarked that it was not desirable to introduce anything of the nature of patronage into the Public Service, but that only efficiency should be considered. Up to 1910, as I say, the principle of preference was not in vogue. Names were registered in the order of application, and no questions were asked as to class, creed, religion, political faith, or anything else. The point was, " Are you efficient and fit for the position; if so, then let the best man have it ? " This Bill seeks to set aside the principle of preference clearly and distinctly. Shall the Public Service be free and open to all persons, irrespective of class, creed, or political faith, and efficiency be the basis, or shall employment be given to unionists, " other things being equal " 1 There is the dividing issue. This is a matter to be taken out of the hands of any Executive, decided by the people, and embodied in a Statute. Henceforth, by this Bill, the Executive will know that it is the wish of the Australian people that in public employment efficiency alone shall be considered. As I have said, the Leader of the Opposition, during the whole of his remarks, did not touch on this vital principle. He never attempted to justify preference to unionists as a condition of entry to the public positions. We were told, by way of interjection, that there has been no coercion of men into unions; and I should like to read the following extract from a letter dated 2nd April, 1913, and addressed to Mr. R. L. Meeking, 21a Marlton-crescent, St., Kilda - I have the honour to inform you that approval has been given for your appointment as Field Hand in connexion with survey work in the Northern Territory, with wages at the rate of is. 5d. per hour of forty-four hours per week. This approval has been given on the understanding that you are a member of a recognised union. If you are not, it will be necessary for you to take steps to join at once, otherwise the agreement lapses. If other things were equal, why make this man become a unionist ? He ought to have been selected because he was the best man for the job; but he was told that if he did not join a union his agreement would lapse. That is the way " Preference to unionists, other things being equal," works out. That letter was signed by Mr. Atlee Hunt, the Secretary to the Department of External Affairs, and the Minister at the time was the honorable member for Barrier. I am sure, however, that that honorable gentleman was only acting on the principle that any other member of his Government would have acted. That is the way in which this operates. Of course, we must reason it out. The Labour Government gave preference to unionists. Let us examine their reasons for so doing. According to the honorable member for Wide Bay and others, we should give preference to unionists because of the splendid fight unionists have put up for industrial unionism. If men are to be appointed to the Public Service, not because they are the best men for the jobs, but because they have rendered some service to the community, why should that service to the community be confined to one object only ? If a man has performed some great religious service for the community, is that not to be recognised ? Or, if he has done great work in promoting industries in certain directions, is that to be set aside ? If to reward some service rendered to industrial unionism we may depart from the principle of making appointments to the Public Service on merit alone, we are entitled to depart from that principle on other grounds; but if we are not entitled to depart from it on those other grounds, then we have no right to depart from it at all. In other words, the public offices of the Commonwealth are not to be used as rewards to any one for services rendered outside to the community as a whole. The second ground advanced by the ex- Prime Minister and others was that unionists have done such splendid work in lifting wages up. I agree with these honorable gentlemen that unionists have done splendid work in that direction. 3100 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Then why penalize them ? 3100 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - I agree with the honorable member that no man should be penalized' because he is a unionist, but I go further and say that, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned, no man should be penalized on the ground that he is a non-unionist. Why should preference be given in Government employment on the ground that the unionists have done such splendid work in lifting up wages? The matter of Government employment is quite distinct from that of private employment. We cannot compare public employment with private employment in this matter. One of the principal reasons why preference is given to unionists in private employment is that people have been victimized, but the Government have never yet victimized unionists, so that ground cannot apply in the matter of Commonwealth employment. So when we examine the reasons we find there is not one valid ground that can be advanced for giving unionists preference over other persons in Government employment. Now, let us take the strong reasons against giving that preference to unionists. First of all, giving preference to unionists would fetter and tie the hands of the Commonwealth, and prevent us from having free selection in getting the best men. The second objection to preference to unionists is a serious one. It is that unions are becoming daily more and more political. 3100 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - That is what troubles you. 3100 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - That is the trouble. We were told by the honorable member for South Sydney that one reason why unionists should get preference was that it would produce industrial peace. That sounds very nice. I am sure that if Australians thought preference to unionists was. going to maintain industrial peace, and that if there would be peace all through the country if preference to unionists was given to-morrow, there would be very strong ground in having that condition granted. But let us see what the member for Darling has said in regard to industrial peace. He has made this statement - There are only two classes in the political field, and there can be nothing but war between them until Capitalism as a social system is thrown over altogether. 3100 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - That is absolutely true. 3100 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M.- The honorable member for South Sydney, with an angelic smile, tells us that there will be industrial peace, but the organizer of the most powerful union, the honorable member for Darling, says that there will be no industrial peace until the whole social system is thrown over. So we have these two leaders of unionism telling us different tales. Even where they have had preference to unionists, I do not think we can see that industrial peace has followed. Have the Government servants been free from strikes in Australia? With a Labour Government in power, the producer suffered heavily from a strike on the railways of New South Wales. There is no guarantee in regard to the Public Service that preference to unionists will secure industrial peace. One of the most serious objections to preference to unionists is the fact admitted by honorable members that trade unions are becoming more and more political. I have a return published by the Queensland Registrar-General for 1911. It deals with small fractions only of the unionists of Australia, and it is a sample, but it shows that the expenditure from 1910 amounted to £25,428, of which £4,641 was paid away for benefits, which are the legitimate objects of unions. 3101 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - How do you know that? 3101 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - -I say they are. These benefits are, to my mind, legitimate objects of unions. This return is based upon those furnished by the unions, and shows that the total expenditure in Queensland on management of unions was £8,607, while no less than £12,180 was devoted to other payments, mainly assistance to other unions, legal and political expenses, and subscriptions to labour newspapers. To-day, we have a statement by honorable members opposite that these unions are becoming political. If I desire to join a union which is political in its objects, I am compelled to subscribe to purposes which carry out all the objects and aims of political unions. 3101 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Not in all of them. 3101 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - In many instances the moneys are devoted to that object 3101 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - Give me a typical instance. 3101 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have several times called order. I ask honorable members to allow the Minister to occupy the short time at his disposal. 3101 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member for Darling said, in opening a conference representative of over 100,000 workers - The amalgamation would enormously extend the influence of labour, both industrially and politically. Unless the industrial and political movements were interwoven it was little use striving for the accomplishment of their aspirations. Honorable members will admit that preference to unionists is to be a permanent feature of their programme. There is to be no discretion with the Government. It must be absolute employment of unionists, other things being equal. If a man comes to a public office and asks for employment, he is to be asked, "Are you a member of the union or not? " In view of the fact that unions are becoming more and more political, if he wishes to get employment in the Public Service of Australia, in respect w which employment there is a recognised union, he may have to sacrifice his conscience and political convictions before he can be employed. A condition of that sort would be the grossest violation of individual liberty that any British community has ever seen. 3101 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - A few years ago, when you were fighting your present allies, you were hanging round the coat-tails ofunionists. 3101 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M.- The honorable member's statement is grossly inaccurate. If I have said anything unparliamentary, I apologize, but I have always held my present views, and constantly expressed them. The honorable member should be the last to talk as he does. He forgets his own entry into the House and his present position. Never have I voted for preference in obtaining employment in any Government service, and the honorable member knows it. Let us see some of the grounds on which judicial preference has been exercised by the Courts. The Arbitration Act has not, at any time, given absolute preference to unionists. It has always been judicial preference, and' it is interesting to note how this has been exercised. I find that Mr. Justice Edwards, of New Zealand, where there was judicial preference, in giving an award, said - The claim of the union to a preference of employment in my opinion necessarily fails when it is ascertained that the union is not really representative of the greater number of the workmen employed in the trade, and the claims of the union have not resulted in any practical benefit to the bulk of the workmen. The first application for preference to unionists made before the Commonwealth tribunal was made to Mr. Justice O'Connor, in the Australian Workers Union case, and the Judge said - The granting of preference to members of the Union puts a limitation on the employer's freedom of choice in selecting his workmen ; it also places at a disadvantage in obtaining employment all persons exercising the same avocation who are not members of the Union. The claimants, however, have failed to put before me any reason for exercising my discretion in favour of granting preference. Mr. Reid relying on the legal position that I was bound to make the order, has abstained from urging any argument in support of my exercising my discretion to grant it. He then goes on to deal with the political side. In those days, no preference could be given To any union that applied its funds to political purposes, and dealing with that point, Mr. Justice O'Connor says - In aid of these objects rule 48 provides for the establishment of a political fund to be available on behalf of duly-pledged Labour candidates approved by the Union. There is no suggestion throughout the rules that the political ends aimed at are to be limited to the subjects set forth in the proviso to section 55. In the face of these declared objects of the Union, it is impossible to hold that the rules of the Union do not permit the application of its funds to political purposes. Apart from any other consideration, therefore, the rules themselves make the granting of the application for preference impossible. There are two points involved there. First, on the general ground of preference, Mr. Justice O'Connor decided that no grounds for preference were shown, and the second point was that the objects were political, and, therefore, preference had to be refused. 3102 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Because it was prohibited by the Act. 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - I am telling the honorable member so, and also that, in 1910, this House had rushed through it, at express speed, an Arbitration Bill which repealed the sections relating to political objects. It was especially provided that, under the Act, preference might be given to unions, although they were political in their objects and purposes. 3102 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - You do not dare to reinstate the old section. 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Our opposition to the present provision is just as keen as ever. 3102 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur r. - Why do you not repeal that part of the present Act? 3102 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We intend to do so. 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - There were three safeguards against the exercise of judicial preference to unionists in the Act of 1904. Speaking from memory, they were, first, that the application could not be granted until notice was published in the Gazette, and everybody had an opportunity of coming in and opposing it; second, that, in the opinion of the Judge, those applying for it had to represent a majority in the industry concerned; and, third, that the application could not be granted if the objects of the union were political in their character. As soon as our friends opposite got into power, they repealed the whole of those safeguards. 3102 KGG 0 0 HANNAN, Joseph Mr Hannan - Quite right. 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - That is a matter of opinion. I have here the judgment of Mr. Justice Higgins, delivered in 1911, in the case of the Federated Engine Drivers and Firemen's Association of Australia versus The Broken Hill Proprietary Company and others. At page 25 he said - But I am very loath to interfere with the employer's absolute discretion in choosing his employes without the employer's consent, or, some very strong necessity. This absolute power of choice is one of the recommendations of the minimum wage system, from the employer's point of view - he can select the best man available when he has to pay a certain rate. This freedom of choice tends to the efficiency of the industry, bracing up the men to show their powers. Moreover, I find, in this case, at present, no disposition or wish on the part of these employers to discriminate as against unionists. There is a general desire among the employers who have given evidence to be fair, and to get the best men that they can at the price. The burden of proof lies on the claimant to show that preference ought to be granted, and that burden has not yet been satisfied. 3102 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - What do you object to in that statement? 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - I do not object to it. In that case the Judge was asked to give preference to unionists, and exercised his discretion, with full power to do it. He said that it interfered with the employers' discretion, with which he was very loath to interfere, pointed out that freedom of choice tended to efficiency, and found that no discrimination had been practised.F or those three reasons he said no preference ought to be granted; but honorable members opposite did not give any discretion at all to officers employing public servants. They were bound to give preference in every case that came up before them. Preference had to be given to unionists, other things being equal. 3102 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Give us Mr. Justice Higgins' decision in the Brisbane case. 3102 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M.- I shall refer to that with pleasure. In the case of the Federated Seamen's Union of Australia against the Commonwealth Steam-ship Owners Association and others, volume 5, page 170, the Judge gives various reasons in favour of preference, and then says- And there is much truth in this also. But it does not follow that an order for preference is a fit remedy. I desire to confine my remarks to the case actually before me; but, to my mind, a claimant ought to make out a very strong case before the Court could fetter the discretion of the employer in selecting his employes. The order should be shown to be clearly necessary in order to secure fair conditions for the men. Much depends on the meaning of " other things being equal." . . . I propose to say that the Court does not see fit to grant any order for preference to members of the organization at this stage, but the refusal is without prejudice. 3103 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - What point do you make out of that case ? 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - An application for preference was made to the Judge. The Judge said a strong case ought to be made out before it could be granted, and decided that in that instance it ought not to be granted. Under the decree of the late Government, if men walked up to the public office the officials had no discretion; they were bound to take them on if they were unionists, other things being equal. Let us turn now to the Brisbane Tramway case, as given on page 19 of the special report. The Judge condemned the Brisbane Tramway Company for victimizing unionists. We need not traverse that point. 3103 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - You would not do that. 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - There is no need to do it. We will assume that the Judge was justified in finding it. I presume that, like myself, honorable members opposite have not heard the evidence, and must accept the Judge's statement of the case. He says - If I could find any other method of protecting the members of this association from the intimidation which Mr. Badger practised, I should use that method rather than do anything tending to restrict him in the choice of employes ; but the law provides me with no other means. I have asked the company to undertake not to discriminate against members of this association. I have no power to make an order against such discrimination, but if the company gave me its undertaking I should be satisfied with it, and should refuse to order preference. In that case, and in those circumstances, the Judge, after full deliberation, made an order for preference. In every other case he refused to give preference to unionists. He gave it in this case because of victimization. The preceding Government granted absolute preference, but when we look to see how a Judge, in his judicial capacity, granted preference, we find that the only ground on which he gave it was victimization. Is there such a threat or so much fear of victimization by Governments in Australia that absolute preference should be granted in the Public Service? I hold that there is absolutely none whatever. 3103 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - What Government put preference to unionists in the Arbitration Act? 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - The whole of the House did it in a matter between employer and employe. It provided for judicial preference, but it did not enact an absolute preference. 3103 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - You were in that Government. 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - I supported the Bill all through, and it was on my motion that political preference was prohibited, but the Bill was passed in 1904, and I was not in the Ministry then. I have supported, and will support, the principle of industrial legislation, but I have always protested, and will protest to the end, against the use of the powers of the Government to secure political tyranny in connexion with industrial unionism. Not one reason that would hold water can be advanced in favour of preference to political unions. On the contrary, everything points to the exercise of this power as being tyrannous in its operation, cruel in its results, and utterly destructive of efficiency. 3103 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - You might give one illustration in support of that frightful charge. 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - I say that that is the result. As regards the Public Service Act of Australia, passed by the first Parliament, we all rejoiced, because we believed that it put an end to political patronage. 3103 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - This Bill has nothing to do with the Public Service. 3103 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M.- The honorable member could not. have read it. It does affect it, and it will prohibit any Government from excluding men by an Executive act from application or entry to the Public Service on account of certain opinions that they may hold or prevent preference in employment. Political patronage has an absolutely corrupting influence on the community. When we find that unions are becoming more and more political every day, as is admitted, and that the leaders are binding them more and more to distinct principles not relating to unionism at all, but to Socialism and other things altogether outside unionism, and when we give in the public employment preference to those persons, which practically amounts to giving all possible preference on account of the political views that they hold, we are really getting back to the old system that was repealed. A striking passage occurs in May's Constitutional History of England, Volume 2, page 233, applying to a state of things which, if this policy were persisted in, would be reproduced in Australia. 3104 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - -How many hundreds of years ago? 3104 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - The policy of the Opposition is always to go back to the Acts of the past for their ideas. During their regime some of the great principles that were fought for in the past were violated by them. May says - It has been noticed elsewhere that while the number of places held by members of Parliament was being continually reduced, the general patronage of the Government had been extended by augmented establishments and expenditure. But throughout these changes, patronage was the mainspring of the organization of parties. It was used to promote the interests and consolidate the strength of that party in which its distribution happened to be vested. The higher appointments offered attractions and rewards to the upper classes, for their political support. The lower appointments were not less influential with constituencies. The offer of places, as a corrupt inducement to vote at elections, had long been recognised by the Legislature as an insidious form of bribery. But without committing any offence against the law, patronage continued to be systematically used as the means of rewarding past political service, and insuring future support. That passage applies admirably to the present position. This Bill strikes at the evils of patronage, and if it is passed that insidious principle which honorable members opposite attempted to introduce will be destroyed. 3104 KXK 0 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - I suppose that passage related to the fourteenth century? 3104 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM M. - The honorable member is trying to reproduce the conditions which then prevailed. It is necessary, in the interests of the public, that the people should declare most emphatically that the Public Service of Australia shall be thrown open to everybody, irrespective of class, creed, or political views. Efficiency and fitness for the duties to be performed should alone be the determining factors in appointments to the Public Service of Australia. 3104 DQC West Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES .- To-day we have had an opportunity of seeing and hearing something of the second proposal by which the Government, on a date not yet definitely fixed, is to seek the opinion of the people. This purports to be a Bill dealing with preference to unionists, and we have had from the Attorney-General and the Minister of Trade and Customs dissertations covering a very wide field, dealing in general with the conditions of labour, with the relations between employer and employe, and, in particular, with preference of employment to unionists. The references of the Attorney-General to the measure were vague and meagre; his honorable colleague dealt with it more closely. But. I wish to say now, and at once - because one never knows in these days what may happen - that the Bill is a sham. We were led to expect a frontal attack on the principle of preference to unionists, but this measure completely evades the issue. It is a mere placard, and a very poor one. Moreover, it is impossible to conceive that the two Ministers who have spoken, both of whom belong to the legal profession, can be ignorant of the fact that the measure is in no way necessary for the purpose for which it is alleged to be required. I say emphatically, this Bill is not necessary to prevent preference being given to persons employed in the Public Service. No Act is necessary for such a purpose. At the most, it is a mere declaratory measure. It is a prohibition, but we do not know to whom it is directed. If it is a prohibition directed to the Judiciary, it is impudent; if directed to the Government, it is unnecessary. So much by way of preface. Let me now contrast what has been said to-night and what was said during the electoral campaign with what honorable members opposite now propose to do. During the electoral campaign they inveighed against preference to unionists generally, not merely against preference to unionists in the Public Service. According to the Leader of the Opposition, some 29,000 persons are employed in the permanent and temporary branches of the Public Service, and there are in Australia at least 600,000 or 700,000 adult workers, of whom, at a moderate computation, 300,000 are unionists. 3104 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton n. - Four hundred and fifty thousand. 3105 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I wish to be well within the mark. We have been told that unionism is an evil vitiating the very fountains of democratic and representative government, threatening the fabric and its foundations throughout the length and breadth of the Commonwealth. We were told that it is a great and growing evil. Thank God, unionism is growing every day ! No quarantine, nor any means known to man, can check its advance. No virus that the_ Government know of, no vaccine which they possess, can hinder this movement, which began in spite of them, is going on in spite of them, and will continue to flourish long after they are in their political graves. But they call unionism as we know it an evil. What, then, do they propose to do with this evil, as they call it? They propose to let it go on. According to' them, there are thousands and tens of thousands of non-unionists - cheerful, honest, bright, industrious citizens - who are striving, God knows under what difficulties, to earn their daily bread, and opposed to them is this tyrant, this Colossus of unionism, which threatens to take away their small opportunities for making a living. What do honorable gentlemen opposite propose to do with this terrible evil? They propose to let it go on. Unionism stretches over the whole country from Dan to Beersheba, from Bunbury to Wilson's Promontory. It affects every worker in the land. Yet the Government proposes to legislate in regard to only 29,000 public servants, who do not make up a twentieth part of the workers of the Commonwealth. Furthermore, of these public servants, 17,000 are completely beyond the scope of this measure. The permanent public employes cannot be affected in any way, good, bad, or indifferent, by this proposal of the Government. The measure, then, relates, if it relates to any one, to the 12,000 temporary employes of the Commonwealth . What an anti-climax ! We have the country overspread with what the Liberal party considers a great industrial pestilence, and Ministers propose to squirt their rosewater remedy on one out of every fifty of the sufferers. What a bold, courageous policy this is ! But let me cut into it a little deeper. This Bill, which purports to attack the general principle of preference to unionists, in no way really affects even those at whom it is aimed, because the party opposite is pledged to abolish day labour, and to substitute contract labour. When that is done in connexion with the public works of the Commonwealth, the only ground in which this little seedling could take root disappears, and there remains no one whom the measure could affect. That is the literal truth without exaggeration. We have listened for two hours to a tirade against unionism. What shall we say of the remedy that is to be applied ? We had a right to expect something; but here is nothing. , The Government propose a crusade against no living being. We have the public declaration of Ministers - God knows that that does not count for much - that they are pledged to the abolition of day labour; and the fulfilment of that pledge rings the death knell to any preference to unionists that can be affected by the measure. So much for that point. During the electoral campaign Ministers denounced unionism, and, in particular, political unionism. To-night the Attorney-General gave us his ideas on the subject of unionism, illumined here and there with the candid admission that he did not know much of the subject. It is a pity that he did not preface his remarks with that admission. He said that since 1890 unionism has been getting political, that it is no longer content with industrial organization, but had bent its efforts towards political action, its objective being Syndicalism. I do not expect that every man in this House should intimately concern himself with economics. It were to ask too much to require that men whose business it is to make laws should understand the warp and woof out of which they are fashioned, but I protest in the most passionate and emphatic way against this miserable exposure of my honorable friend's ignorance. What is Syndicalism ? It is the denial of the efficacy of the law, and of all political action. It is the red flag. It is 'sabotage. It is the pushing aside of the political machine, and the marching on to victory by force. It is, in short, the substitution of force - of direct action - for political action. The honorable and learned gentleman calmly tells us that, for years, unionism has been getting more and more political, its objective being Syndicalism. That is like saying that, for years, the people have been getting more Christian in profession and practice, their objective being hell ! I would that I could apply that to my honorable friends opposite, wishing them a rapid journey and Godspeed. What was the position of the Government as set forth during the election and by the honorable and learned gentleman. It is opposed to political unionism. According to the honorable and learned member, political unionism is a thing accursed. But the honorable gentleman who leads the Government was once upon a time a unionist. Ho cannot shelter beneath the cloak of ignorance that covers his colleagues, who have seen the industrial world only from the outside. He knows what it is to earn one's living with one's hands, and by the sweat of the brow. He has gone down into the bowels of the earth to toil. He was a miner, and has never denied his origin, being proud of it. Moreover, he has always said that he believed in unionism, and quite recently made a profession of faith, which I will read. It is to be found in the Ilansard record for the 26th September, 1911, Vol. LX., page 787- I have no sort of sympathy with the man who will work alongside another man, and see that other paying every week of his life into an organization to protect his rights, and to maintain his position, whilst he himself is skulking,, and deriving the benefit for which the other is paying and working. The honorable gentleman believes in industrial unionism, and even quite recently he again asserted his belief in it. He objects, so he says, only to political unionism. We have just listened to a wail from the Minister of Trade and Customs about political unionism, which denies the right to men in this country to freedom of opportunity to get their living. Freedom ! Freedom sounds well on the lips of these gentlemen, saturated as they are with the events of the past week in this House. Freedom of -action and freedom of speech ! The little tin gods must laugh when they hear such speeches as these from such men. My honorable friends denounce political unionism, and why? One would imagine that the use of funds for political purposes was a crime. What have we come to in this twentieth century of civilization that we should hear political action denounced as if it were anathema? After man has been marching for 300 years steadily in one direction, laying aside force and adopting more civilized weapons, when every forward step taken by the men of our race has been in the direction of securing by political means those rights which were denied to the people in the past, are we now to be told that to seek redress by political means is a crime? Unionism is charged with spending money for political purposes. In what more civilized, more equitable, or more proper way could money be spent than that by which civilization for these centuries has progressed ? Political purpose ! That is the very purpose for which we are all here. It is the principle upon which democratic government rests. This community lives, breathes, and expresses itself politically. There is not an act done, or permitted to be done, unless through political means. By political means we make the laws under which we live, and nothing can be done save under the sanction of law. Yet we are told that we are pariahs, because for the last twenty years we have begun to open our eyes and spend our money, not only in a profitable, but in a proper, direction. If the charge against unionism is that it spends its money to secure reforms by political means, it needs no answer. These gentlemen talk about freedom and independence, and their only effort in the direction of independence is to subsidize the so-called Independent Workers Union, whose solitary purpose it is to do the dirty, contemptible, work of those who dare not meet unionists face to face. That is their work for independence. As for their work for freedom and liberty, it is written in the imperishable records of this House. Why do they denounce political purposes? It is the sole cause which brings us here. It is the foundation of our very existence. I shall tell honorable members why they object to it. Even the Honorary Minister - the honorable member for Wentworth - now says that he is not opposed to industrial unionism. They all now say that they believe in it. Why? Because it is a fact so patent that the blind see it. It is a fact which screams from one end of the country to the other, so that the deaf must hear it. It is something so undeniable that every man admits it, and 99 out of every 100 agree with it - in moderation. When unionism was au outcast they stoned it. Now, when, in spite of their bitter opposition, it has grown powerful, they are compelled to conceal their enmity. These gentlemen opposite believe in unionism, providing unionism is content to put in its sheath the only weapon that is effective. They believe in unionism, provided it does not assert itself. Provided that unionism does not exercise its power, it is a good thing. They counsel unionism not to use political means. But the unionist must not break the law. What is the law? It is the opinion of those who control the political machine. What does this mean? It means, if unionists are denied the right to combine for political purposes, that a very large proportion of the people of this country are unable to express themselves at all, because these gentlemen arrogate to themselves the sole right to occupy the Treasury bench. And they will grant unionism nothing it does not compel them to grant; During the centuries of the past, they have been perfectly content to divide amongst themselves; the spoils of office, but when the hewers of wood and drawers of water organized and became a force, they joined together in order to make common cause against the common enemy. Why are they opposed to political unionism ? I will tell honorable members. It is because political unionism is effective unionism. I ask my friends in this country, who yet believe that political unionism is not as effective as industrial unionism alone, to note most carefully that, although some of the gentlemen opposite profess to believe in industrial unionism, some up to this point, and some to another, and some without reservation, the one thing upon which they are all agreed is to condemn political unionism. Why ? It is because they fear it. Political unionism means their extinction. It means that between unionists and the holy of holies there stands nothing but the determination of the people themselves and the realization of their strength. My honorable friends on the other side have denounced political unionism, but what are they going to do to check it? Nothing. Though they denounce political unionism, and fear it, they have not the courage to attack it. It is a two-edged sword without a handle. They cannot catch hold of it, and they cannot use it. The Attorney-General and the Minister of Trade and Customs quoted quite a number of extracts from newspapers and books more or less remotely irrelevant to the subject under discussion. I cannot follow them, but I do not propose for a moment to allow them to persuade the people of this country that their attack upon preference to unionists is to be taken seriously. They are opposed to it, they fear it, but they fear it too much to attack it. It is to their fears, rather than to their sense of justice, that we owe this immunity. It is true that the honorable gentleman at the head of the Government may feel some embarrassment in this matter. God knows, the human mind is a singularly complex thing, and his circumstances may even embarrass the honorable gentleman. He is a unionist himself. He may feel some embarrassment in taking part in butchering unionism. One never knows. There are depths to which the worst of men object to descend. But however this may be, the point is that the measure now before this House is a measure on which they have elected to go to the country. It is the measure upon which they must stand or fall. It is the measure by which they will be gibbeted from one end of the country to the other. It is a measure which betrays at once the hollowness of their pretentions and their lack of courage. It exposes every one of their pledges, as it were, in the pillory, that decent men and women may cast their objurgations and curses upon them. Here is a Government who declare that preference to unionists is a danger and a menace to liberty, yet dare not touch it ! We are told that the Public Service ought to be free to all without distinction of class or creed, and that public money ought not to be spent except in such a way as to secure the best men. The Minister of Trade and Customs said that one of the objections to preference to unionists was that it prevented the Commonwealth from getting the best men. I deny that most emphatically. It prevents the Commonwealth from getting the cheapest men very likely, but that it prevents the Commonwealth from getting the best men I call upon the Attorney-General to deny. The honorable gentleman has admitted that the best men are always members of the unions. 3108 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I do not admit any such thing. 3108 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - Of course the best men are in the unions. 3108 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - I made no such admission. 3108 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - The honorable gentleman says he did not make the admission; I did not suppose he would, but I heard him say something suspiciously like it. Calm reflection has, no doubt, enabled the honorable gentleman to modify his opinion, but even if the honorable gentleman did not make that statement, I will make it for him, and I challenge him to deny it. It is the experience of all those who have to employ labour that the best men are in the unions. When we are told that preference to unionists is objectionable because it does not enable the Commonwealth to get the best men, I say that that is not in accordance with experience. But this matter has no relevance to the question before the House. The proposal prohibits the granting of preference to any employe of the Commonwealth on account of his being a unionist. Let me explain what is the law and practice at the present time in regard to this matter. The law is silent. The Government can employ unionists or non-unionists. They can give preference, or can decline to give preference, to unionists. That is the position. The practice, as initiated by the Fisher Government, was -to give preference to unionists under conditions which are set out in the answers to a series of questions put by Air. Deakin to the present Leader of the Opposition, who .was then Prime Minister. These will be found at page 634 of Hansard for 26th September, 1911. Mr. Deakin sought, in his questions for information in regard to the whole matter, and, shortly, the substance of the questions and answers may be thus reduced to coherent form. Mr. Deakin was informed that, other qualifications being equal, preference would be given, in all cases, to unionists. Qualifications, such as ability, experience, and physical condition, would be considered. No Commonwealth law existed in regard to preference to unionists for permanent employes. As regards who was to determine the fittest, Mr. Deakin was informed that the officer charged with the duty of selection would do so. He was also informed that non-unionists appointed on the ground of greater qualifications or capacity would not be liable to be suspended or displaced in favour of unionists applying for appointment. Those were the principles on which the Fisher "Government acted, and I appeal to every member of this House and to the people of the country to say if any exception can be taken to them. Our action was reasonable, fair, practicable, and proper. Upon those principles the Fisher Government acted . It was a preference sanctioned by law in regard to the employes of private persons. I come now to the broad, general question of preference. My honorable friend opposite spoke about preference as if he were in some doubt as to whether it should be granted or not. Just a word as to the history of preference in this country. In 1904 a Bill was introduced by the Deakin Government providing for preference. It provided practically for unqualified preference. It was subsequently modified by Mr. Deakin, as the result of the defeat of the Watson Government. Preference was then confined to unions that did not use their money for political purposes. The honorable member for Darling Downs was one of those who voted against that proposal- 3108 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - He denies that. 3108 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S.- I do not say that it is a matter of very great importance, but there it is. The President of the Arbitration Court was at his discretion to grant preference, or to withhold it. The law remained in that form till 1910, when the political qualification was omitted, and it was subsequently amended so that practically preference rested at the discretion of the President. That is the present law. Under that law - and it has existed practically in its present form for three years, and in its qualified form for nine years - the Judge was empowered to grant preference to every union which asked for it, and which he thought deserved it. He has granted preference to one only. I submit that there can be no better way of testing a law than by showing, as a matter of fact, how it has operated. We have the fact that, in nine years, the principle on which these gentlemen opposite have lavished all their eloquence and vehement criticism has been enforced only once. The discretion rests in the hands of a man wise, and keenly alive to circumstances. In nine years, he has never exercised the power vested in him unwisely or rashly; rather, on the other hand, has he hesitated to do what he might rightly have done. He has put the law into force once, and that was in connexion with the Brisbane strike. The only occasion on which preference has been granted under any Federal law was that to the Brisbane Tramway employes, and not one member of this union has remained to enjoy it. The Brisbane Tramway Company's employe's are a living proof of the readiness with which employers defy the law when it does not suit them. We hear great panegyrics about the law, and the necessity of bowing the knee to the law; custom and precedent are thrown in our faces in this House, and we are adjured to respect authority, but the employers, like the Government, when it suits them, respect nothing. The Brisbane Tramway Company dismissed every one of their hands. The men were awarded preference; they have no employment. So for nine years, in fact, this law has done no man harm. No employer, no citizen, not one human being, has been affected by this law. Yet we hear from one end of the country to the other the honorable member for Parramatta screaming about preference to unionists like - well, like what? 3109 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr Bamford - A tin whistle. 3109 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - It reminds me not a little of a duck-billed platypus. I leave it at that. My honorable friend went to the country denouncing preference to unionists. Preference has, in fact, never been enforced in Australia under the Commonwealth Act, never been enjoyed by one human being. How, then, could any human being be the worse for it? I want to strip every pretext from these honorable gentlemen, and show the naked thing beneath, to let the people see their hollowness and the rottenness of their proposals. They denounce preference to unionists; it has never been enforced; it has never taken effect. They denounce political unionism; yet they dare not touch it. Why do they not attack it if preference be, as they say, a menace and a danger? Here is the law - the Arbitration (Public Service) Act. Why do not our honorable friends bring in a short Bill repealing that Act? Here is the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act. Why do they not bring in a Bill repealing that Act? Let us go to the country on these things. Then, indeed, the people would have some substance, not a miserable shadow, impalpable, vanishing as we approach, which will not permit us to grasp it. They tell us that preference to unionists is a danger, that political unionism saps the vitality of the nation; and they give us this measure, which has no relation to political unionism at all. They say that industrial unionism is a menace, and they give us this measure, which affects only 12,000 men, and every one of them they propose to remove from the scope of its operations. This is a bold, courageous policy if you like! Why are they doing it? They are doing it for two reasons. First, because they had not the courage to act otherwise ; and, second, because they are compelled to make some show, to persuade the people that they are desperately in earnest, and desperately courageous men. They propose to send this measure up to the Senate, in order that it may be rejected. Why? The Senate has, in its time, accepted a dozen such measures in the afternoon. What human being could a measure like this hurt? 3109 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - It will not hurt anybody. 3109 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S . - What human being would be the better for it? I do not deny that the intention is venomous. But why this miserable pretence? The Government can do this thing, not in six months' time, not after a double dissolution, but to-morrow morning. Let them summon a meeting of the Executive Council. Let the Attorney-General write a minute that in future no preference to unionists shall be granted to persons employed in the Commonwealth. 3109 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - We have done it. 3109 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - Well, well, well, did'um, did'um, did'um ! In the history of great political achievements, was there ever an achievement fit to rank on a par with this one? They have done it, and yet they bring in this measure. They have abolished preference to unionists in the Commonwealth service. In the name of God, then, what is this thing - a shadow of a shadow. It has now not even that semblance of a foundation which it had when the minute of the ex-Prime Minister existed. The Government have Already done that- which they say this Rill is to give them power to do. Are we going to the electors, are we going to drag the Senate to the electors, and ask them to give us power to do something that these honorable gentlemen say they have already done? Why, sir, there are limits even to the idiocy of the human mind ; and I truly am at a loss to understand how honorable gentlemen can have introduced such a measure as this. I feel perfectly satisfied that honorable members who sit behind the Government had no conception of the scope of this measure. They imagined it really dealt a substantial blow at preference to unionists. I should be the last to complain if the Government had done that, because they have every right to assert a principle in which they believe, or to denounce one in which they do not believe. But this is not a principle ; it is a pretext, is less than nothing. The Attorney-General has treated us to a dissertation about unionism. He believes in unionists combining. He thinks it is a very proper thing for them to do that. They can do all that they are able to do. They must not break the law, they must not use force, and, of course, they must not expect the mantle of the law to be thrown over their shoulders; whatever they can get otherwise, well and good. There are only two ways in which a unionist can achieve any advantage, and both of them have, in fact, so far as the non-unionist is concerned, the same effect. A unionist can only enjoy an advantage at the expense of a non-unionist by getting something which the latter would otherwise have got. How does it matter to a non-unionist that his bread and butter is taken away from him by unionists acting without the sanction of the law; how does it sweeten his sorrow; how does it help him the better to bear his privations? When the Prime Minister was a miner and an active unionist, I have no doubt that he took part in several strikes and resisted the non-unionist coming to take his work. No doubt, the non-unionist did not feel that any sweeter because there was no law at the back of the honorable member. If a man robs me, I do not mind whether he robs me under the sanction of the law or not. The fact is that he robs me, and' there is an end of it. If a man stops me from getting my living, I do not care whether he stops me under the aegis of the law; it is sufficient if he stops me. If unionism is bad, it does not become any better because you throw the mantle of the law over it, nor does it become any worse. But if unionism is of that kind that the mantle of the law may not be thrown over its shoulder, it is something for which civilization has no room; it ought to be put out. There is nothing in a civilized society which the law ought to permit if it does not approve. There is nothing it ought to permit if it does not believe it to be good and for the welfare of society. Therefore, if unionism is to be permitted at all it ought to be recognised by law. The unionist ought to have his privileges and his rights sanctioned and defined by law, or he ought not to be allowed to have any privileges and rights at all. What the Attorney-General says is that unionism is to have what it can get by force, and by force is to hold if. That is what he says. But when force is attempted, how does my honorable friend act? This honorable gentleman who now says, " They can get what they can get, and hold what they can hold " - when they tried to get what they could get, and hold what they could hold, what did he do? He flew to the Legislature, passed his Coercion Act, and crushed them out of existence. That is how he acted. 0 There is his law. Always against the unionist, and never for him. The idea of this gentleman speaking about law and denouncing the unionist. He speaks law. Why he is a member of an organization which daily defies the law, which has trampled out of existence a law passed in this State for the protection and benefit of the people of this country. There is a law in Victoria which provides for the amalgamation of the two branches of the profession, to one of which I belong. Under that law a man in this State is both a barrister and a solicitor, and is permitted to practise either branch of his profession. This law was passed in order that litigants might avail themselves of the services of a lawyer without having first to go to a solicitor. In short, it is a law which was enacted for the benefit of the people: How does my honorable friend treat it? Why, he, who speaks of freedom and the right of any man to earn his daily bread, will crush out any man who does what the law of Victoria permits him to do. I am a unionist, and I am an official of a powerful union in this country. I have seen what unionism can do, and I say that the greatest thing ever attempted is but as dust compared with granite rock alongside the boycott and the defiance of the law by the Attorney-General. He is the Leader of the Bar in this State, quite apart from the position which he occupies at present. He is the leader of that section of the profession which will not consort with a mere solicitor - this gentleman who declares that all men ought to be free to gather fruit in Eden. His opportunities to get his living ought not to be curtailed by other men. He should be able to put out his hand and gather the ripe fruit. That is the picture which my honorable friend paints. But behind every tree in his Eden there lurks a Satan, and when an unfortunate man has put out his hand once he will never hold it out again. The honorable gentleman's association wields a more effective boycott than any trade union in Australia. I say that without any hesitation. I do not wish honorable members to run away with the idea that I am objecting to it. I am not going to sail under any false colours at ail. I believe in preference to unionists. I merely say that it does not become the honorable gentleman to denounce unionists and preference. He claims, and enjoys, not only the preference which the law extends to him, but the preference which the law has denied him. I do not wish any person in this country to think that in anything I have said about the honorable gentleman's profession I am speaking beyond the card, because I am not. There are men who have been, and are now, in this House, and on his side of it, with whom the Attorney-General will not associate himself professionally at all. Let him deny that. Before any man in the community can become a member of the honorable member's profession, he must qualify himself. He must pass an examination. In short, he must do what the Leader of the Opposition said - he must serve his time just as any artisan has to serve his time. Neither more nor less. The honorable member for Dalley represents an organization whose branches extend to the four corners of the earth, and its members have to serve about as long - perhaps a little longer - than do those who qualify for the Attorney-General's profession. But when they have become members of that organization the mantle of the law is not thrown over their shoulders as it is thrown over the shoulders of my honorable friend. They have to get what they are able to get. If they get preference, they "get it by spending their money for political purposes, or by resorting to force and defying the law. That is the hard alternative to which they are reduced. The honorable member for Flinders does not spend his money. Although he defies the law, the law still smiles sweetly on him. Just one word more about the question of arbitration and strikes. The honorable gentleman said that the time was not ripe for the abolition of strikes. I am sure that if Mr. Esson were here to-night, he would say that it was by a most happy chance that he heard those words falling from the lips of my honorable friend - " The time is not yet ripe." Never since the world began was there a more apposite remark than that in connexion with this Government.. The time is never ripe for them. Why do they not send up a measure to the- Senate which reflects the statements which they made to the electors at the last election? Why" do they not say, " We are opposed to political unionism, and opposed to preference to unionists ' ' ? The time is not yet ripe. Why do not they treat the private employer fairly? The time is not yet ripe. They intend to abolish preference to unionists, because they say it does not give the Commonwealth the chance to get the best men. But they propose to allow the private employer to be submerged under this principle, which does not give them the chance to get the services of the best men. The private employers, the poor, unfortunate gentlemen whom they are here to represent, are to linger still in an inferno, whilst these gentlemen fight the sham fight up above, because the time is not yet ripe. The time will never be ripe for reform with a Government of this kind. Here is an opportunity. The time is ripe, and rotten ripe, for the people to be called upon to express an opinion in regard to this matter. When the Government denounce preference to unionists, it is conclusive proof either that they are unaware of the tendency of modern civilization, or that they wilfully shut their eyes to that which passes before the vision of every adult man and woman in the community. Every step in the evolution of mankind has been in the direction of organization and super-organization. What are the great forces which govern society to-day? In every department of production and distribution are there not combines of one sort and another that demand preference? Do they not insist upon it? Is there an organization of any sort that does not put in a plea for preference, and which, if strong enough, does not get it? I have not once, but half-a-dozen times, attended conferences with employers when they have made it a part of the agreement into which we entered that we would decline to work for non-union employers. I have signed such agreements on behalf of the union with which I am associated. Everybody who knows what employers are, what human nature is, knows that that is the very thing upon which they do insist. What is more, they declare amongst themselves that any person doing business with a non-union employer shall be boycotted. Here is one instance out of a hundred which I might give in proof of my assertion. It will be found upon page 951 of Hansard of 29th September, 1911. It has reference to the General Carters and Contractors Association of Melbourne. The agreement sets out that - Members must give preference to association members wherever possible when requiring teams to assist them in their work. Members must also refrain from assisting or employing non-associated carriers who are known to be working adversely to the interests of the Association. In short, the employers stand by preference just as the employes stand by it. Every organization stands by preference, and insists upon it, when it is able to do so. Preference is the natural and inevitable corollary of organization. It is universal in its application, and I say that the Commonwealth, in regard to its own employes, has as much right to consider a principle of this sort as it has to consider the question of a White Australia or of Protection. Let me now say a word as to why the Government should employ unionists rather than non-unionists. I will give two reasons. The first is that the most effective way of preserving industrial peace is to employ unionists rather than non-unionists. The second is that unionism having been sanctioned and recognised by law, it ought to be encouraged, and the State ought to stand out as the model employer. It ought to pay the best wages, and ought to encourage the employment of the best men. Not only that, but I say that the community recognises the principle of preference to unionists, and, having recognised it, has approved it. I will prove my statement. The Labour party has put preference to unionists before the country for years. We have never shrunk from that task. We have advocated preference in season and out of season, and when we were returned to this Parliament with an overwhelming majority behind us, we had the mandate of the people to enforce it. 3112 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - And to use public money for the purpose ? 3112 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - Yes. We had the mandate of the people to enforce it. The people gave us their mandate to enforce the policy of a White Australia. Yet the public would save a lot of money if they employed coloured instead of white labour. What is more, they did employ coloured labour until we entered this Parliament. Further, I will pin the Attorney-General more firmly to the wall by asking him why Protection is the law of the land. Will the honorable gentleman say that the community has not given us a mandate to purchase Australian goods rather than foreign goods, although the foreign goods may be cheaper ? 3112 KJE ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 IRVINE, William Mr W H IRVINE - Have my honorable friends ever had a mandate to use public money to reward their own supporters ? 3112 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES S. - The community recognises that there are other things to be considered besides mere money, and is prepared to pay for them. One of these things, for example, is white-grown sugar. We pay heavily for that. We pay heavily also, if you like, for Protection; but we pay for it because we have considered the whole question, and believe it to be well worth paying for. We are paying for white labour too, and it would be a bad day's work for us when we considered the money aspect of a question of that sort. There is the -matter, and there I shall leave it. Shortly put, the position is this: The Government have denounced preference to unionists, and, in particular, preference to unionists from the political side. They have denounced this in season and out of season. They have been in office five months, and have made no effort to deal with this matter. They have now introduced a measure that deals ostensibly with employes in the Government service. It can deal only with temporary employes, and, accepting the computation of my honorable friend, there are 12,000 of these. According to the statement made by the Prime Minister, all these will be displaced from their positions as Government employes, and will be taken over by private contractors. That being so, preference to those persons will still be continued, although they will be no longer Government employes. The Attorney-General spoke of the use of public moneys. I want to ram home the point that the private contractor will have to pay trade union rates, that he will have to acknowledge the principle of preference to unionists, and that he will pay the wages which preference to unionists involve. The public moneys, therefore, will be well looked after in the hands of the private contractor. He will see to that; so that this flimsy pretext, which the honorable gentleman has tried to advance as a reason for the action of the Government - the last shred upon which he relies - has been torn away. This measure stands condemned from every stand-point. It does not do what it professes to do. Even if it did, it would not do anything at all in this great struggle of unionism versus non-unionism. We are here arrayed on the side of unionism, and honorable members on the Government side, say what they will, are the enemies of unionism. They dare not avow it plainly, but they stand there, the enemies of unionism; and I ask for no better vantage ground than that they shall say, " On this question of unionism or non-unionism, and this alone, we shall go to the country." Let it be so, and we shall see who will win. 3113 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS .- Before coming to the subject-matter of this debate, let me compliment the honorable member for West Sydney on having tickled very effectively the ears of every honorable member of his party. David Garrick, with all his glittering brilliancy, would not have been in it with him as a jingler of the English language. This is a question upon which the two parties in this House stand divided. The whole of the members on the Government side of the House are definitely opposed to the application of the principle of preference to unionists in the Public Service of this nation. What is the design of Labour in regard to the principle of preference to unionists? In my judgment, it is the very top rung of Labour's political ladder. By design, it is for them a short cut to the Treasury bench and to their permanent entrenchment there. It is well, perhaps, that we should try to obtain a definite interpretation of the term " unionist." Who is a unionist to-day? 3113 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews s. - Employers like the honorable member are unionists. 3113 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I am referring to those who are approved unionists in the eyes of Labour. I listened intently to the debate on the Address-in-Reply in this Chamber, and was particularly struck by the earnestness and the candour of the honorable member for Fawkner. He spoke as a unionist, and was well qualified to do so. As a member of the Trades Hall Council of this State, he has been associated for very many years with the political movements of Labour. He knows its ins and outs, and has come but recently from the highest position in the Trades Hall Council to occupy a seat in this House. The honorable member left in my mind, unqualifiedly, the impression that to-day there is no difference, in the eyes of Labour, between the industrial unionist approved by them and the political Labourite. They are one and the same person. Let us come to Labour's own interpretation of the term. The Political Labour Council of Victoria controls the Labour movement in this State, and article 1a of its constitution provides that - Membership shall consist of members of trade unions and of persons enrolled as members of the organization, said members to be pledged to uphold the constitution, platform, and pledges of the organization. In the same constitution it is provided that; - AH members and intending members of branches must sign the platform, pledge, and constitution of the Political Labour Council. It is further provided that - No person shall be admitted as a member unless he or she is a member of his or her respective union which is affiliated with a recognised Trades and Labour Council, provided that such person is eligible to join such affiliated union ; provided further that any person who is a member of a trade union not affiliated with a Trades and Labour Council may apply to be admitted as a member of the Political Labour Council. Then we have the rule that - No union shall be eligible for affiliation with the Political Labour Council unless such union is affiliated with a recognised Trades and Labour Council. During debates on industrial matters in this House several honorable members have rather trimmed on the question of the position of the industrial unionist and the political Labourite. It is within the recollection of honorable members that a union not affiliated with the Political Labour Council recently sought from the parliamentary Labour party recognition of their union for industrial purposes, and that recognition was denied. We are, therefore, brought definitely down to the point - whether the political Labourite will admit it or not - that today, in the eyes of Labour, the industrial unionist approved by Labour and the political Labourite are one and the same. Let us look at the system .in operation. Labour says, in effect, to the unionists or the workers who promise to support them, " Support the Political Labour Council, and we will make the Public Service of the Commonwealth a special preserve for your employment." Whom does the Public Service of this country embrace? We have in it professional men, the Army and Navy, artisans and skilled and unskilled workmen. Are we, then, to ask the whole of the Public Service to bend the knee to, and to adopt the political doctrines of, the political Labour party, in order to obtain employment in the Service? Honorable members of the Opposition might well be candid in this matter, and say straight out that the aim of their party is to compel every member of the Public Service to support them in politics. If we have arrived at such a stage in the development of the Public Service of the nation that we are prepared to ingraft so pernicious a principle upon the legislation of this country, then, why not hand over the whole continent to Labour, both in and out of politics ? . 3114 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - You will have it handed over before you know. 3114 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - Not at all. I ask any honorable member of the Opposition to point out to me any Labour platform, either State or Federal, that contains the plank of preference to unionists. Where is such -a plank to be found in the platform of the party? I have looked diligently and carefully through the platform, but have failed to find this principle embodied in it. We have but recently fought an election campaign, and I took great care, whilst that campaign was in progress, to come as closely in touch with the community as I could. During my short life I have set up a condition of living in which, I am pleased to be able to say, I come into close and intimate contact with all sections of the community. That being so, I have many opportunities to discuss the political situation with those who are opposed to me politically, and who do not vote with me. I have discussed honestly, fairly, and candidly, with them the planks m the platforms of both parties, and it is within my own knowledge that many who support our opponents in politics are diametrically opposed to the principle of preference to unionists; that they do not wish for it, and do not recognise it or find it embodied in the platform of the party. Who sets up the Public Service of Australia, and what is it? The Public Service has been established in order to provide public utilities common to the welfare of the whole of the people. That Service is based, and exists, upon taxation levied upon the people. Workers, and all sections of the community alike, contribute to it. 3114 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Does the honorable member suggest that he is getting no value from the Service? 3114 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- I do not suggest anything of the kind. What I suggest is that every adult in Australia contributes his or her quota, either directly or indirectly, to the Public Service, and I want to know, then, whether the Opposition claim that a big proportion of the people of Australia, who do not believe in the doctrines of their party, and do not subscribe to the principle of preference to unionists, should continue to provide money for the Public Service, so that it may be a special preserve for their followers, and subsidize Labour in politics, in order that effect may be given to their doctrines. 3114 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member might say the same about the education systems of the different States. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- There is no analogy between the two. 3115 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - It has had the effect of sending us to Parliament. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- That may be. The prominent feature of the Labour party's advocacy of the principle of preference to unionists is that they have the conviction that it is the short cut to the Treasury bench, and to their permanent entrenchment there. 3115 KHU 0 0 HOWE, Robert Mr Howe - Never mind the Treasury bench; we are here just now. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- And honorable members opposite seem to occupy their present position with a great deal of discomfort. At any rate, honorable members opposite seem very anxious to return to this side. We have had several definitions of the doctrine of preference. There has been, what I may call without disrespect, the O'Malley doctrine of absolute preference, and we have had that of the Leader of the Opposition, whose idea is preference, " other things being equal." I have not, however, heard any interpretation of those words, " other things being equal;" and I ask whether anybody can say there is any sincerity in them ? When we find two men eligible for the Public Service, in connexion with whom all things are equal- 3115 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Suppose there is a man with one leg and another man with two legs! 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - That is a different matter; we are now talking of efficiency. I can see nothing in preference except an attempt to secure a legalized means of compelling public servants to vote for Labour. 3115 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - How can a man be compelled to vote in a certain way? 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- A long step is taken towards it when a man is placed under pledge to vote. In all honesty and sincerity - because this is a matter on which there should be no misrepresentation, but as much elucidation as possible - I ask what is meant by the article in the constitution of the Labour party which provides that the members shall be pledged to support the platform of the party. I am quite aware that it is impossible to mark a man's ballot-paper for him, but, as I say, you go a long way to compelling him to vote in a certain direction if you tell him that if he does not do so he shall not have a place in the Public Service. If that is not playing the political game " low dowD," I do not know what is. 3115 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - I have never seen that; it is only a candidate who pledges himself to vote for the party. I will show the honorable member an Australian Workers Union ticket to-morrow morning, and he will find on it nothing in the shape of a pledge to vote for Labour. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- Then what is the interpretation of the rule that all members, and intending members, of branches must sign the platform, pledge, and constitution of the Political Labour Council? 3115 KC9 0 0 DANKEL, George Mr Dankel - That has reference to the Political Labour League. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- With which are affiliated all trade unions. 3115 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - That is where the honorable member is entirely wrong. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- Of course, I am open to correction; but I understand that before a person can join the Political Labour Council, the union to which he belongs has to become affiliated with that council. 3115 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - There is no compulsion to come into the Political Labour party. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- I know; but if preference is desired it is asked that the unions shall become affiliated with the movement. 3115 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - What the honorable member does not seem to understand is that there are tens of thousands of unionists who are not in the Political Labour party. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - I know; and I am also aware that there are many unionists who would not touch the Labour movement with a forty-foot pole. 3115 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - What? 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - Is there not a Labour union in this State known as the Liberal Workers Union? 3115 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - Does the honorable member call that a union ? 3115 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson n. - It is an employers' union, subsidized by the employers. 3115 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The honorable member's charge falls to the ground when he says that there are many unionists who would not touch the Labour movement with some kind of pole. 3115 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - And these are the men whom the Labour party will not recognise in connexion with the Public Service, and whom the Labour Government refuse to recognise so as to give them the advantage of the laws of the country. There is a plank in the State Labour platform about which I am much concerned, and I think it just as well to have it placed on record in Hansard. That plank is " Equality of opportunity; the right to work." How do honorable members opposite reconcile that plank with the doctrine of preference? 3116 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - That is easy! 3116 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S. - I hope that some honorable member opposite, and I particularly call on the honorable member for Adelaide, will be able to explain this matter. 3116 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - If the honorable member will guarantee me that he has an open mind, I shall explain it to him. 3116 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- I may say that I came into this Chamber with a comparatively open mind. 3116 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member soon shut it up when he got inside the Chamber ! 3116 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West t. - The honorable member wants an open mind very badly! 3116 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - The honorable members who are interjecting call for a masterly rebuke from me, but I do not wish to administer it. 3116 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member can say what he likes to me ! 3116 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- This is a question on which we hold diametrically opposite opinions, and I am not one who desires to see acrimony in this Chamber. If the honorable member for Adelaide can convince me that the principle of preference is a right principle, morally and politically, I shall subscribe to it. The Bill opens up the general principle of preference, and affords an opportunity to enter thoroughly into the industrial situation. That, however, I do not wish to do. Beyond saying, as I have said on the platform, that I take no exception whatever to either industrial or political unionism. I recognise that we, on our side, come together in order to improve our political conditions, and the conditions of our supporters, and I am prepared to concede the same right to our opponents. At the same time, I must say emphatically that I am opposed to very many of the economic and social doctrines advanced by honorable members opposite. 3116 JX9 0 0 FRAZER, Charles Mr Frazer - Did the honorable member speak of improving the conditions of his supporters? 3116 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS S.- I spoke of improving the conditions of our supporters, along with those of the whole of the taxpayers of the country. The honorable member for West Sydney expressed the opinion that there was no substance in the Bill, but I contend that the principle, even if it affects only half-a-dozen people, is a vital one; and I hope that the House will determine that, in the Public Service, there shall be equality of opportunity for all, and preference to none. 3116 KUF Darling 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE .- We have listened with some degree of interest to the speeches of the Attorney-General and the ex- Attorney-General ; and, in my opinion, the remarks of the latter practically annihilated the position of the Government. We have had an admission that the principle of no preference is already in operation; and yet, although we are told important business remains to be done in the short time at our disposal, we have this Bill introduced. Further astonishment is created by the suggestion that this is to be a great test issue in the double dissolution which the Government say they desire. But it is peculiar to go to the people for authority for something that has already been done. It is a new method to adopt a law by regulation before introducing a Bill; and! perhaps, we have not yet quite realized the value of such a method. The Minister of Trade and Customs is very innocent in his idea that this Bill, if passed, will make a change in the practical working of unionism. The only effect will be to set up an inequality under the existing law in the matter of disputes which arise when men refuse to work with non-unionists. In such cases, the employes in the Commonwealth are to be denied the right to appeal to the Court for settlement. A tribunal has been set up by this Parliament for the settlement of industrial disputes and the maintenande of industrial peace; and yet it is proposed by Act of Parliament to prevent that tribunal from promoting industrial peace ; in short, this is a measure calculated to promote industrial warfare, and perpetrate injustice on a number of citizens. It seems to me extraordinary for the Government to adopt such an attitude. I do not intend to repeat the arguments, so clinching in their effect, of the Leader of the Opposition and the honorable member for West Sydney. They have torn the Bill to pieces, and shown it is not needed. I wish to reply to one or two points raised by the Attorney-General in introducing the measure. He covered a big field. He went back to the days of the guilds, and wished to know why the unionists did not take up some of the good work done by those guilds. We do not ask for the power those guilds had; because men were compelled by Act of Parliament, under penalty of imprisonment, to join the guilds; but, though the guilds certainly did splendid work, I wish to make one or two quotations, by way of reply to the Attorney-General, as to the work the modern trade unions do. The Duke of Argyll, in the Reign of Law, says- The mere founding, for example, of a voluntary society for any given purpose evolves out of the primary elements of human character a latent force of the most powerful kind, namely, the motives, the sentiment, the feeling, the passion, as it often is, of the spirit of association. Fothergill Robinson, in the Spirit of Association, says - It has been a pathfinder to the Legislature. It has built up systems of assurance which have received legislative sanction, and are now being absorbed and developed into a State scheme. It has befriended the arts, literature, science, medicine, and has rendered untold services to education. In all its expressions, from the vast federations of trade unions to the smallest gatherings of knots of enthusiasts assembled for some altruistic purpose, it has had an unmeasurable influence upon our national destiny. We shall see that by its means character has been trained and raised, a religious spirit has been manifested, discipline has been enforced, and also that the various forms of association in England have served as schools of citizenship. In these quotations, there is a complete answer to the Attorney-General in regard to the value of trade unions, because today they have behind them that same spirit ; they discipline men and make them better men. The Attorney-General inferred that trade unions have ceased to do what some of the guilds did, and that they have ceased to see that there is efficiency in their membership; but any one in touch with the trade unions of to-day knows that he is wrong. The trade unions, particularly in the Sheffield trades, and in their allied branches in Australia, do not admit members unless they are efficient tradesmen. In regard to the apprenticeship question, the trade unions are fighting for more efficient tradesmen, while the class who vote for the present Government are those who fight against it. They seek to have an unlimited number of apprentices, and to turn out the greater part of their work by apprentices, and thus not have apprentices trained properly. We recognise that the apprenticeship question is a difficult problem since the introduction of machinery. In fact, there has been a big change that has brought about the conditions of the modern trade unions, and sharper lines of conflict, as contrasted with the old guilds. Fothergill Robinson says, speaking of the change of things - The new belief which gained acceptance was that the freedom of each man to pursue his own individual interests was the surest of guarantees of national prosperity and well-being. The followers of this faith, however, failed to reckon with certain weaknesses of unregenerate human nature . The fact that the equitable distribution of wealth was infinitely more important for the true welfare of the nation than its rapid acquisition was not realized. To-day, the Labour party stand for the more equitable distribution of wealth, for a higher standard of comfort for all, and for the abolition of all low-down conditions. We are only at the dawn of such things; but our aim in this direction is higher than the question of the individual doing what he likes. Fothergill Robinson further says - The ethical standard of the age was utterly unequal to support the strain which was cast upon it when machinery rendered the accumulation of Urge fortunes a new possibility. The national conscience slept while horrors and iniquities were perpetrated, which were perhaps unsurpassed in the history of industry in any country. The struggle is not over, by any means. It is interesting to find the representatives of the class largely governed by the Employers Federation admitting the importance and value of trade unionism by the introduction of a Bill which is one step in the direction of striking a blow at that very institution in our national life that makes for the improvement of individuals and the betterment of society. I ask leave to continue my speech on some future occasion. Leave granted; debate adjourned. 3177 22:40:00 House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.