1913-12-02 5 1 0 REPS 3641 0 House of Representatives. 1913-12-02 Mr. Speaker took' the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers, 3641 Questions 3641 General Post Office, Brisbane 3641 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - I am informed that overtime due for the month of September to 'the letter carriers' connected with the General Post Office. Brisbane, has not yet been paid. As complaints of this nature are becoming all too frequent, I ask the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Postmaster-General, if action will he taken to expedite the payment of the money that is due. 3641 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - Inquiry will be made into the matter, and the honorable member will be informed of the result. 3641 3641 JLM 0 0 ABBOTT, Percy Mr P P ABBOTT - I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether his attention has been drawn to a letter which appeared in the Tamworth Observer on Tuesday last.' It is alleged in that letter that the British Australian Tobacco Proprietary Company Limited has stocks of Australian tobacco in hand sufficiently large for four years' consumption, and, therefore, is not prepared to buy any more leaf. The company's buyer, it is said, has advised farmers not to continue tobacco growing because there will be no market for that product. Will the Minister -have an inquiry instituted to ascertain the cause-, and whether there will be an opportunity to sell tobacco leaf, and whether the price of the manufactured article will be affected in any way? 3641 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I have not read the letter referred to, but my attention was drawn to the same matter by a letter handed to me by . the honorable member for Maranoa. I have had inquiries made, and the two honorable members concerned can see the official file, which gives the results. 3641 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - That is useless to me. I want to make the facts public. 3641 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I should like honorable members to see the file, and when they have done so, I shall be prepared to make public the information which they desire. 3642 3642 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS - Will the Prime Minister state whether it is necessary for the Commonwealth to ask for permission to exhibit at the Panama Exposition under its own flag ? I may explain that I have seen it stated that Canada and Australia are asking for permission to do this. I wish to know if the Commonwealth Government has asked for such permission, and, if so, why? 3642 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I am informed by the Minister of External Affairs that he knows nothing of the matter, and this is the first time I have heard of it. The statement referred to cannot be true. 3642 3642 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - On Friday last the honorable member for Grey asked me whether there was any truth in the rumour that the wages of temporary office cleaners had been reduced. I told him that I knew nothing of the matter, and the Secretary of the Department was at the time unaware of the facts ; but I have ascertained since that in the Home Affairs Department there are two temporary office cleaners who, in accordance with a decision of the last Minister, have been receiving 9s. per day. The Public' Service Commissioner, however, has drawn attention to the fact that section 40 of the Public Service Act provides that temporary employe's shall be paid at the same rate as permanent employes for doing similar work, and that the permanent office cleaners are receiving 8s. 5d. per diem I saw the Public Service Commissioner about the matter on Saturday, and I am afraid that his decision must stand. 3642 3642 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDONALD - I ask the Prime Minister, who, with others on the Ministerial side, has complained from time to time of the delay in laying the report of the Auditor-General on the table, whether he will adjourn the consideration of the Budget and Estimates until the report for the present year has been presented, so that we may properly discuss the financial proposals of the Government. 3642 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I say frankly that I am bitterly disappointed by the late appearance of the Auditor-General's report. I should think that I have asked for the report a dozen times, and the latest information is that it is likely to be here during this week. I say that that is much too late, and I can tell the honorable member that next year the report will be presented earlier. 3642 3642 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD - I ask the Assistant Mini ster for Home Affairs when may we expect to have the balance-sheet showing the operations of the Saddlery Factory up to the 30th June last. 3642 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - And balance-sheets showing the operations of the other Government factories. 3642 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The factories referred to are under the control of the Minister of Defence. I shall bring the questions under his notice, and furnish replies later. 3642 3642 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - As on the 20th August the Colonial Sugar Refining Company promised to pay to the Commonwealth money which it admitted waa rightly owing I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs, on the 2nd December, whether any of that money has yet been paid. 3642 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - On Saturday last £100,000 was paid, and the balance is now being adjusted. 3642 3642 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I wish to ask you a question, Mr. Speaker, regarding a paragraph that has appeared in the newspapers to the effect that a collection of manuscripts which once belonged to Governor Macquarie, and which concern the early history of Australia, is for disposal in London, and that the sale of the papers is being postponed pending the decision of the Commonwealth . regarding their acquisition. I should like to know if anything has been done, or whet-be? it is proposed to do anything, to obtain these papers for- the Commonwealth. 3642 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I extremely regret that so much publicity has been given to this subject. It has had, I am afraid, a prejudicial effect upon our negotiations for the acquisition of the manuscripts, which had been proceeding quietly up to a certain point, when, unfortunately, newspaper prominence led to the appear.ance of other competitors for their possession. I can only say, as I said before, that the matter is still under the consideration of the Library Committee. 3643 3643 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD - In view of the continuation of the small-pox outbreak in New South Wales, will the Minister of Trade and Customs state whether the Government intend to take any step to prevent the epidemic obtaining a foothold in the other States? 3643 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr Thomas - Not until after the election is over - not until after Saturday. 3643 KFK LP 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I am afraid that the honorable member for Barrier is judging others by his own standard and his own methods; but as I "have to answer this question, I desire to say that the arrangements which were arrived at were satisfactory to the health authorities, and also to the Director of Quarantine. These are: being carried out in good faith, and it is believed by those competent to advise «s that they will prove efficacious. 3643 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - That is very vague. 3643 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers: - Pearl-Shelling Industry - Royal Commission on - Minutes of Evidence, Appendices, and Indices. Unemployment - Report on the Conference of the International Association on - held at ('hent, September, 1913, by Mr. Donald Campbell, Commonwealth representative, together with note by the Commonwealth Statistician. Ordered to be printed. Defence Act - Regulations amended (Provisional) - Factories (Government) - Conduct and Management of, and Employment of Persons - Statutory Rules, 1913, No. 296. - Universal Training - Statutory Rules, 1913, No. 205. Papua - Ordinance No. 15 of 1913 - Appropriation, 1913-14. 3643 Questions 3643 3643 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr MCWILLIAMS - I desire to ask the Minister representing the Minister of Defence whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the police had to be called in to preserve order in the Military Camp at Liverpool, and if he intends to obtain a report in regard to the incident ? 3643 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I shall bring the honorable member's question under the notice of the Minister of Defence. 3643 F4S LP 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I should like to say a word or two about that question. In the first place, I wish to state that the incident-- 3643 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Does the honorable member propose to obtain the permission of the House to make a statement? 3643 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr Fisher - I presume that there will be ti general discussion. 3643 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Does the Prime Minister desire to make a statement? 3643 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - i wish to reply to the question just asked. 3643 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr mcwilliams - i would like to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the incident? 3643 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - You ruled last week, Mr. Speaker, that a question could not be repeated. 3643 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - It is not worth while bothering about it. 3643 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It is perfectly correct that- 3643 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - This is an application of the "gag" by the Opposition. 3643 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! It is correct that a question once asked and answered cannot be repeated; but if the Prime Minister desires to make a statement, he can do so with the leave of the House. 3643 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - I do not desire to make a statement. Later: 3643 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether there is any foundation for the report that fight went on at the Liverpool Camp between those who wanted to go to a canteen and those in the Military Department who are opposed to anything of the kind ; and whether there is any means of putting a stop to this sort of thing? 3643 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK - So far as I understand the matter, the position is that a new order has been issued this year in connexion with the training operations. Hitherto, the rule has been to allow the trainees out of camp during the evening, so that they may go into the town of Liverpool. This year an order has been issued that they must not go into the town of Liverpool, but must remain in the camp. It appears that some of the young trainees resented this decision. They could reach Liverpool only by crossing the river bridge, and at the bridge there was an insufficient guard, with the result that some of the young trainees began to play up. My own opinion is that the incident has been much exaggerated. 3644 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWilliams - If it be true that they commenced to pull women off bicycles, I do not think that it has been. Mr. JOSEPH COOK. - I do not know that that was done. I believe that the guard was strengthened, and that since then there has been no trouble. Exaggeration will go on until the end of the chapter. 3644 3644 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - I see by the newspapers that several members of another place, as well as members of the Ministry, have been talking a lot of silly stuff about the Labour party and trying to beat the Prime Minister at the game. I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he is going to take steps in regard to this ? 3644 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is not in order in asking such a question. 3644 3644 KES 0 0 FALKINER, Franc Mr FALKINER - Will the Minister of External Affairs inform the House whether any bores have been put down lately in the Northern Territory? 3644 KCO LP 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Machinery for boring has been sent up in the direction of Anthony's Lagoon, and I think that a contract was recently entered into with a local station-owner to sink some necessary wells there before a bore is put down. I may add that I have under consideration a scheme for the construction of a series of wells, in accordance with Captain Barclay's report in 1911, to connect, say, the Camooweal route with Newcastle Waters, and thence on to the Victoria River country. 3644 KES 0 0 FALKINER, Franc Mr Falkiner - Has anything been done in the past? 3644 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - Not very much in the way of boring. So far, work in this direction has consisted almost solely of well sinking. A few sub-artesian bores have been put down, the greatest depth reached being about 400 feet. If the honorable member desires detailed particulars, I shall be happy to supply them to-morrow. 3644 3644 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER asked the Honorary Minister, upon notice - Hasthe Government decided to go on with the construction of the proposed new General Post Office for Perth, as planned by the officers of the Home Affairs Department? Is there any likelihood of the work being immediately put in hand? 3644 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The answer to the honorable member's questions is as follows: - An answer is awaited to a communication addressed to the Premier of Western Australia with reference to certain proposals as to road width,&c, forwarded by him; and on receipt of the expected reply I hope to be in a position to give early effect to the personal representations of the honorable member. 3644 Employment of Artillerymen 3644 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice - Does he consider it right that artillerymen should be taken from their ordinary duties for the purpose of attending "Defaulters' Camps" and taking charge of trainees there, no additional payment being made to them therefor? In view of the fact that such work is usually undertaken by members of the Instructional Staff (who receive£156 per annum and 6s. per diem additional for attending the camp), will he state why regular troops of the Port Jackson Fortress are required to perform the duty and work longer hours without monetary recognition ? 3644 KEA LP 1 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - The answer to the honorable member's questions is as follows : - 1 and 2. It has been necessary to utilize the services of artillerymen for these duties as a temporary measure, pending the provost staff being in a position to take them over. The question of the grant of extra duty pay to noncommissioned officers of the Royal Australian Garrison Artillery, whilst so employed, is under consideration. 3644 budget 3644 Consideration resumed from 28th November(vide page 3641), of motion by Sir John Forrest - That the first item in the Estimates under Division 1. - The Parliament - namely, The President, £1,100, be agreed to. 3645 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I congratulate the honorable member for Hindmarsh on the exhaustive manner in which he dealt with the important question of where the wealth of our community resides. I must express my regret that, since Mr. Coghlan left the States, our statisticians seem to be very loath to deal with this question, which he most exhaustively investigated, and one has to refer to his book, The Seven Colonies, in order to obtain certain official information which he gave to the people from year to year. In 1901-2, he set down the private wealth of Australia at £908,000,000 in round figures. 3645 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - He was only guessing. 3645 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - The honorable member will find, if he turns up that volume, that Mr. Coghlan had a very admirable way "of reasoning out his conclusions. I will admit that, in this particular case, the total is only an approximation. I believe, reasoning from Coghlan'* figures for 1901-2, when things were not too good so far as values were concerned, that the private wealth of Australia amounts to-day to something like £1,300,000,000. 3645 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - How does he arrive at those figures? 3645 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - He sets down land and improvements at £627,000,000; live stock, £85,000,000; furniture, &c, at £29,000,000; machinery, &c, £29,000,000; mining, 4c £32,000,000; merchandise, £59,000,000; coin and bullion, £26,000,000. Those are the principal items. He estimated, also, that £130,000,000 of this private wealth was owned by absentees. I very much regret that our statisticians seem to have neglected this important branch of investigation, because I agree with the honorable member for Hindmarsh that, if we are to legislate fairly and equitably for the people of Australia, we should know as nearly as possible where the wealth of the community lies. At page 14 of the Budget pamphlet issued by the Treasurer, he has attempted, in a table, to give the people of Australia an idea of how much the taxation of this country has increased from 1909 to 1912. I do not think the right honorable gentleman has dealt fairly with the people in the way he has presented his case. The figures may be all right, but his deductions are wrong. He states that, in Customs and Excise we received £10,000,000 in 1909, and £14,000,000 in 1912. He, therefore, puts down the increase during those few years as from £2 lis. 3d. to £3 4s. 5d., or 13s. 2d. per head. I am prepared, as far as possible, to go in for prohibitive Protection, but, while we have the present moderate Tariff, it is only natural to expect a considerable inflow of revenue from Customs and Excise during these prosperous times. There was no alteration of the Tariff during that period, so how could there be any increased Customs taxation ? The right honorable gentleman sets down also, " direct taxation, Commonwealth and State." Why include State taxation, unless he is going' to include the deductions?. We, as legislators like to know what direct taxation has been imposed by the States, and it is also well to know what the local taxation is, but I do not understand why Federal taxation, State taxation, and local taxation are all grouped together, and the figures presented as if the increase shown were the total increase of taxation under the regime of the Federal Labour Government for the past three years. The Treasurer sets down direct taxation, Commonwealth and State, at £3,500,000 in 1909, and £6,750,000 in 1912, or an increase from 16s. 7d. to £1 9s. 8d., equal to about 13s. Id. per head. I challenge any honorable member on the other side to show in what way, with the exception of the land tax, any fresh taxation was imposed upon the people of Australia during the three years of office of the Fisher Government. The land tax was imposed only on 14,000 of the wealthiest landlords and property-owners of Australia, 2,000 of whom live outside Australia altogether. To put it mildly, it is misleading to state that the increase in taxation has been as indicated by the Treasurer. The land tax itself amounts only to about 5s. per head, if averaged over the whole of the people, and it is paid only, as I said, by a small number. The local taxation increased from £3,028,000 to £4,204,000, oi from 14s. 4d. to 18s. 5d. per head. The Treasurer gives the total taxation for 1909 at £17,384,000, and £25,700,000 in 1912, or £4 2s. 2d. per head in 1909, and £5 12s. 6d. per head in 1912, a net increase of £1 10s. 4d. per head. That is the cry with which our honorable friends on the other side are going about -the country - that under the rule of the Fisher Government, taxation was increased by £1 10s. 4d. per head. That is the story they wish the electors to believe, when the real truth is that the only fresh taxation imposed was the land tax, which amounts to 5s. per head. Another set of figures with which I propose to deal relates to the sugar question. I take these two tables as fair samples of the statements in the other tables, apart from the official figures, and if those others are no more true in spirit and in fact, the Budget statement is misleading. The right honorable gentleman refers to the number of tons of sugar produced and the- number of employes engaged in the industry in the following words - The number of white men employed in the industry, including in factories, on 31st December, 1907, was 41,800, while on the 31st December, 1912, it was only 27,380. On 31st December, 1907, there were employed in the industry, including factories, 4,068 coloured persons, while on 31st December, 1912, there were only 1,383. The sugar produced in 1907 was 214,244 tons, while in 1912 it was 130,059 tons, and estimated for this year 226,991 tons. On 31st December, 1912, it appears that there were 14,420 fewer white men employed in the industry than in 1907, five years previously. The number of white men employed in the industry, including in factories, were : - The Treasurer wishes to convey, and the Brisbane press are taking up the same cry, that during the reign of the Fisher Government the sugar industry depreciated. Such, however, is not the case in the ordinary sense of the word. If it had been said that owing to the bad seasons there was less sugar produced, and, therefore, fewer people employed, it would have been the truth. But why should the Treasurer go so far back as 1907 ? The reason is that in 1907 there was the highest production of sugar, and naturally the greatest number of people employed, and he compares that year with 1912, which was almost a year of drought. The difference in the figures is solely due to the failure, or partial failure, of the crop. and the right honorable gentleman answered himself by showing that with the decrease in the production of sugar there was a corresponding decrease in the number of people employed. I have picked out these two sets of figures promiscuously, and I am sadly disappointed that they should be so presented by the Treasurer, because they do not represent a true record. We ought to be able to rely on the annual financial statement as giving an accurate representation of the true state of affairs. As to rural matters, honorable members in the Government corner, and immediately behind the Government, profess to be much interested in the primary producer. In this connexion, I should like to quote some figures in reference to the claim which has been made by the Australian Workers Union. I have here a document signed by Mr. W. G. Spence, the president of the union, and by Mr. E. Grayndler, the general secretary of that body; and I think it just as well that it should find a place in . Hansard, so as to -be available for ready reference. This document, which is headed " The Policy for the Rural Workers," is as follows:- Following our usual custom of endeavouring to amicably arrange rates and conditions, an invitation to meet the Australian Workers Union in conference was extended to each of the farmers and settlers and rural producers associations in the States of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Tasmania, and Queensland. We waited patiently for over two months, and now, after quite unnecessary delay, a few of the employers' associations have written declining to meet the Australian Workers Union in conference. The remainder have not replied to our invitation. We had hoped that a conference would have been agreed to by the employers, that a settlement would have been arrived at before the harvest season began, and that the present industrial trouble would have been avoided. The attitude of the employers' associations in ignoring a matter of such vital importance to the country is to be deplored. The log of rates, hours and conditions for all occupations in the rural industries was published fully in an early issue of The Worker and in the conference report. We therefore now only summarize the rates that were approved of for the agricultural section. The log of rates for other rural industries will be published later. I rather take exception to the use of the word "log," which, in my opinion, would more correctly describe something that has already been fixed. It should be termed a " claim." 3647 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - We did not first use the word - it was first used by the other side ; we never called it anything but a claim. 3647 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - However, the document proceeds - The rates adopted for 1913 to apply to New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Tasmania, and Queensland for the agricultural industry are as follow : - Agricultural Industry Hours per week, forty-eight, to be made up as follows : - 7.30 a.m. to 5 p.m. on five days of the week ; one hour for dinner each day ; 7.30 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Saturdays. All workers not classified in this log to be paid at general farm hands' rates. Ploughmen, drill drivers, and general farm workers who are employed for a less term than four weeks shall be paid 6s. per week in addition to the log rates. The foregoing rates include board and lodging. Where board and lodging are not provided, 16s. extra to be added to log rates. Provided also that where harvester, stripper, binder, drill drivers, or ploughmen attend to their own teams after usual working hours, 7s. 6d. per week in addition to log rates shall be allowed to cover such work, which shall not be considered overtime. Overtime Rates. - Time and a quarter for first two hours worked after 5 o'clock p.m., then time and a half. Grain Carrying and Stacking Hours per week, forty-eight, to be made up as follows : - 7.30 a.m. to 5 p.m. on five days of the week ; one hour for dinner each day ; 7.30 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Saturdays. Overtime Rates. - For all work performed after 5 p.m. and before 7.30 a.m. on ordinary days, time and half. For work performed on Sundays and holidays, double time. Chaffcutting Hours per week, forty-eight, to be made up as follows : - From 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. on five days of the week ; one hour for dinner each day ; 7 a.m. to 12 noon on Saturdays; two " smokehos," fifteen minutes each, on forenoon and afternoon of each day. Provided further that after forty-eight hours have been worked in any week, overtime rates to apply. Time occupied in moving and setting plant to count as working time. The foregoing rates include board and lodging; where board and lodging are not provided, i6s. extra to be added to log rates. Overtime. - For all work performed in any week after forty-eight hours, time and half the time. Corn-Crushing, Compressing, Hay. Straw, or Fodder Hours per week, forty-eight, to be made up as follows : - 7.30 a.m. to 5 p.m. on five days of the week; one hour for dinner each day; 7.30 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Saturdays. The above rates include board ; where board is not included, 16s. per week above log rates. Overtime Rates. - For all work performed between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m., time and a quarter ; from 7 p.m. to 7.30 a.m., time and a half. Threshing Grain Hours per week, forty-eight, to be made up as follows : - From 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. on five days of the week; one hour for dinner each day; 7 a.m. to 12 noon on Saturdays; two " smokehos," fifteen minutes each, on forenoon and afternoon of each day. Provided further that after forty-eight hours have been worked in any week overtime rates to apply. Time occupied in moving and setting plant to count as working time. Time occupied in moving and setting plant to count as working time. The foregoing rates include board and lodging; where board and lodging are not provided, r6s. extra to be added to log rates. Overtime. - For all work performed in any week after forty-eight hours, time and a half. G. Spence, President. Grayndler, Gen. Secretary. That is the claim, which I understand has been sent to the rural producers' associations of Australia. 3647 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr Palmer - Do you think the rural industries will carry those conditions! 3647 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - If these demands are so exorbitant, and the rural producers can place such a strong case before an Arbitration Court as to show that they are, then they should be rushing to the Court instead of trying to avoid it. Where there is a difference between two sets of people, the employers and the employes, we have provided a tribunal to which they can go in order that they may have these differences adjusted, and it is, to say the least of it, un-British if people will not respond to a call of that kind. I understand that in nearly all the States there are farmers paying the rates provided in this claim. 3648 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - The original claim was actually made on the wages being paid by some employers. 3648 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I understand that is the case. It is said that the rural workers will not guarantee efficiency, but in nearly every -other sphere of work, where there is organization and proper treatment meted out, the employer can depend on getting a good class of labourer. In all walks of life, we find some men better than others, and so it will be to the end of the chapter. For instance, some honorable members may say that one honorable, member should not be in this Parliament because he does not possess the mental calibre of another honorable member, but, nevertheless, all honorable members are paid the same salary, and it is a fact that a man of less mental calibre may work harder than a man of superior mental calibre The cry about inferior workmen should not he raised. Everywhere, in the business world, and also in the rural industries, among the ranks of employers, we find inferior men. They are in every walk of life. Then why hurl the charge at the workers alone? But I hope that some scheme will be evolved whereby the farmer will be in a better position to pay wages, and the men will receive at the hands of the farmers much greater consideration. 3648 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - If you stop the trusts from robbing the farmers, they will be able to pay better wages. 3648 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I shall try to show honorable members how much has been done by avoiding the middleman just a little. The question of the remuneration and conditions of farm labour is no new problem. " Mr. Edwin A. Pratt has recently written a book dealing with agricultural organization, especially as it applies to Great Britain, and he has the following paragraph dealing with workers in rural parts- There are not sufficient houses in the country districts, and one of the reasons why more are not built is that labourers cannot afford to pay the rents which would have to be paid to ensure a reasonable return on construction. If, by means o£ agricultural co-operation, the farmers are able to effect material savings in production and on transport, and, at the same time, secure a better return from sales, they should then be well able to give the higher wages which would enable their labourers to pay reasonable rents for decent cottages. I think that agriculturists, particularly advanced agriculturists, and those following rural pursuits, have not dealt with their employes as they might have done to get the best out of them. Before we can get suitable agricultural labourers, it is absolutely essential to have better provision for the men on the farms; and the better men a farmer can get for the wages he has to pay, the greater will be the improvement in his own position. I think it would pay farmers to set apart small portions of their farms for the men they wish to employ. If a young man is keeping company with some young lass in the district, and is desirous of providing a home for himself, why should not the farmer nut off a little corner of his paddock", and build a house, and allow the man and his wife the use of a little plot on which to grow vegetables, and keep a cow, and so make themselves somewhat comfortable ? 3648 KEB 0 0 KENDELL, William Mr Kendell - Hundreds of farmers are doing it. 3648 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I admit it; but the bulk of the farmers are not doing it. They have not made the proper provision for the agricultural labourers that might be made. Recently, some immigrants who came out were engaged to go to a place beyond Bendigo. They got their passes, and went up by train, and they were met by the farmer. They put their boxes in his trap, and were driven out to the farm, but the farmer drove them to a place below the house, a mere ramshackle affair, and said, "Here you are; this is your crib for the time being." They asked, " Is this the place you are going to put us in?" and when he said,. " Yes," they said, " We are not going to stay." 3648 JMB 0 0 ARTHUR, John Mr Arthur - I am sure it was not in Bendigo. 3648 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - It was beyond Bendigo, but not far beyond. The very sight of the hovel was enough to induce them to make up their minds to clear out. 3649 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr Spence - You can bet it was a wealthy farmer - no others would do it. 3649 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Honorable members are talking about the efficiency of labour : but what encouragements are given to induce a man to become an efficient agricultural labourer? What encouragement are the rural producers giving to a young man who wishes to marry and bring up a family ? If a little encouragement were given in the way I have suggested, it would meet with a response that would be of wonderful benefit to the producers, because every one knows that the better he is treated, as a rule, the better the ordinary Britisher responds. I was working on a farm as a youngster, and although I could, as they say, eat and digest wire nails, I have actually gone without a meal sooner -than take some ot the food provided for me. Harold Begbie has also been writing about the British farm labourer. In a country centuries old, some of the wealthy people have not yet made suitable provision for the people they wish to have working for them. Harold Begbie writes - The English agricultural labourer is not an inspiring figure. He is depressed. He is disheartened. He is embittered. They know nothing about the pettiness of party intrigue. All they know is this : they want houses, and cannot get them ; they want land, and cannot get it ; they want a fair wage for their long day of exhausting toil, and they cannot get it. . . An opportunity is now presented . . . to give to the labourer not only land, home, and a living wage, but to give him, and all who care for the march of the nation, a new inspiration, a fresh faith in the essential goodness of life. Then the land crusade will be the greatest, and a long way the most glorious, revolution in our modern history. Surely we do not wish our farm labourers to become a dejected, depressed, and embittered lot. Can we expect to get the best work out of men of that type? Certainly not. The honorable member for Corio and the honorable member for Echuca have asked whether the land-owners can afford to pay the wages demanded by the rural workers. I say that they can, and that, as a matter of fact, some employers are paying them. 3649 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - They can afford to pay those wages if the Millers Association does not rob them. 3649 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Why should not the farmers meet the representatives of the rural workers and reason this matter out? As a rule, in such circumstances the President of the Arbitration Court, or his Registrar, acts as Chairman. If that course were adopted, the matter could be argued out with the farmer on the one side and the employe on the other. In that way a solution would be arrived at. In this connexion, I am reminded of what happened a little time ago when there was a dearth of artisans in Melbourne, and when a large number of contractors were complaining that they could not get sufficient men to carry out the works which they had in hand. On that occasion a contractor who is a constituent of mine remarked to me, " I hear a lot of talk about employers not being able to get men. I have never experienced any difficulty of that kind. I believe in treating a man as a man, and in paying him good wages. Upon none of my jobs have I ever been short of an artisan. It is true that occasionally I have to put men off, but as soon as I advertise for hands they come along to me again." What applies to the contractor when there is a big demand for workmen in our city areas applies also to the farmer. I recollect when I was a lad that men delighted to work for the farmers in the district in which I was resident. In those days they received 6s. and 8s. a day for binding after the reaper. But times have changed since then, and to-day farm work is not the heavy drag that it used to be. We do not now see a man behind a single-furrow plough drawn by a team of bullocks. It is true that that sight can still be witnessed in Palestine, but it was a common occurrence when I was a little boy on the farm. In those days men would always go to good employers, because they said that the tucker was good, the treatment was good, and the wages were fair. As a result, they were happy. 3649 KEB 0 0 KENDELL, William Mr Kendell - The honorable member is not making any allowance for the agitators who come round. 3649 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - In the early eighties, when the shearers thought they were not getting a fair deal, the agitator came in for much abuse. I remember picking up fleeces in a shed for 10s. a week, and at that time the shearers were receiving only 12s. 6d. per 100 for the sheep which were shorn. 3650 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The agitator has been abused for 2,000 years. One of them was crucified then. 3650 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Before the agitator came on the scene the shearers were paid only from 8s. to 12s. 6d. per 100 for shearing; rouseabouts received from 10s. to 15s. per week, while some of them worked for as little as 5s. per week and their keep. What is the position to-day? The shearer receives 24s. per 100, and the rouseabout 36s. or 37s. per week. The position which they occupy is due to the efforts of the agitator. God bless the agitator, I say, when he is able to bring about such desirable conditions. I am as much an agitator for the farmer to organize as for the employe. I say that some farmers would do a good deal better if they were members of organizations. I wish to show what money could be put in the pockets of the rural producers if they would only organize. During the past twelve years I have had a good deal of experience in connexion with the dairying industry. Thirteen years ago there was no such thing as cooperative selling companies, so far as dairy produce is concerned, in Melbourne. But to-day there are three such organizations. 1 will not deal with similar institutions in New South Wales. The honorable member for Richmond could tell us a glowing tale of what co-operation has accomplished in the Byron Bay district of that State, and also by the Coastal Farmers Co-operative Company, and the honorable member for Moreton could render a similar service in regard to what it has accomplished in Queensland. I propose to deal only with Victoria. During, the eight years of its existence, the Western District Cooperative Company has marketed £4,164,000 worth of butter and cheese; the Gippsland Co-operative Company has marketed £3,756,000 worth ; and the Victorian Co-operative Company £3,800,000 worth; or a total value of nearly £12,000,000. What have been the profits? Honorable members know that before these companies came into existence- the farmers used to send their butter to local agents, who charged them 5 per cent, for selling it. The profits of the Western District Co-operative Company during the eight years it has been in existence have amounted to £38,193; those of the Gippsland Co operative Company, - during the past eight years, have totalled £31,551; and those of the Victorian Co-operative Company to £30,000; a total of £100,464. These figures, however, do not represent the whole of the gain which has flowed to the farmers from co-operation. I may tell honorable members that a ton of butter can be marketed to-day for £10 less than it could be marketed ten or twelve years ago. Then the dairy farmer was charged more for the salt, machinery, acids, &c, which he used. In some cases he was charged 100 per cent, more than he is charged to-day. What has brought about this reduction ? Unquestionably it has been the combination of the dairymen. They used to pay £7 per ton for sending butter to England by the Orient Company's and the P. and O. Company's lines of steamers, whereas to-day they pay only £4 or £5 per ton. That reduction, I repeat, has been brought about by combination on the part of the dairymen. All the factories wrote to the shipping companies, declaring that they were united in making this demand for a reduction of the freight charges. A conference resulted, and, for the most part, the dairymen got their way. 3650 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - But the biggest reduction was made in respect of the mail contract. 3650 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - The biggest influence at the back of the mail contract was a combination of the butter companies of Australia. In this connexion we have to recollect that butter is one of the easiest commodities to carry. It is a profitable cargo to handle, and the revenue which the oversea shipping companies receive for the frozen produce which we export must be very considerable. I am safe in saying that, during the past ten years, owing to combination, the dairymen of Victoria alone have saved nearly £250,000. Where did all this money go prior to the establishment of these co-operative organizations ? It went into the pockets of those who supplied machinery and material, and the middlemen who sold the producers' butter in the local markets and elsewhere. I say that in co-operation lies . the solution of the problem of the man on the land. I propose to say a little about Denmark presently, to inform honorable members of what that little country has done in a short space of time by organization and co-operation. The producers of Denmark "have rescued themselves from the middlemen, and, as a consequence, are now reaping handsome profits from their industry. I venture to say that, if Australian producers, wheat-growers, wool-growers, and butter manufacturers, go in for co-operation and cut out the middlemen, they will make more than enough profits to enable them to pay the wages demanded by rural workers, and at the same time' to provide themselves with comforts which they cannot enjoy at the present time. 1 can vouch for the accuracy of the figures affecting the dairy industry which I have given, and should honorable members doubt them, I have the balance-sheets of two of the largest co-operative companies before me. The honorable member for Barker and other honorable members are aware of the immense market there is in the United Kingdom alone for various classes of produce. It will give- honorable members generally some idea of this market if I give them the money value of foodstuffs pf various kinds which Great Britain requires to import to supplement her local production. The value of her importation of wheat, grain, and flour, is £48,000,000 annually; meat, £51,000,000; "poultry, eggs, and rabbits, £10,000,000; fish, £3,000,000; dairy produce, £35,000,000; fruit, £16,000,000; vegetables, £4,000,000; and wool, £33,000,000. It is interesting to know that, of the £33,000,000 worth of wool imported into Great Britain, no less than £22,000,000 worth comes from Australia. The items I have mentioned give a grand total of £200,000,000 worth of produce which Great Britain requires to import over and above what she can produce for herself. That, it will be admitted, is a very considerable market, and the markets of Germany and France are also gradually being opened to Australian producers. These figures should indicate the way in which local producers can find the money to pay well the men who work the land and enhance its value. It will not be necessary to strike a levy for the purpose. Another phase of the question deserves some consideration. I do not know whether the honorable member for Richmond will agree with me in this matter, because I am aware that, in his district, there are some very good dairy cattle. The last time I went into the subject, I found that the average annual product of a cow in Australia was valued at only £6. That figure is altogether too low. 3651 KI9 0 0 LIVINGSTON, John Mr Livingston - How long ago was that? 3651 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - It was not a long time ago, and if the honorable member for Barker will go into the figures to-day, he will find that the average dairy cow in Australia does not yield more than £7 per year. In Denmark, every cow yields £13 10s. per annum. I could show honorable members some herds of dairy cattle in the Western District whose yield averages about £14 per cow per annum, so that the average of inferior herds in some other districts must be very low indeed. 3651 KEB 0 0 KENDELL, William Mr Kendell - Is it not a question of feed? 3651 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - No. You cannot secure the butter-fat by feeding. It. is possible to alter the quantity, but not the quality, of milk by feeding. ' 3651 KI9 0 0 LIVINGSTON, John Mr Livingston - You cannot get it without feeding. 3651 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - That is true, of course; but a good dairy cow will give a good, average of butter-fat, and only the quantity of milk she gives may be increased by feeding. In America many experiments have been made to feed dairy cattle with the object of increasing the butter-fat of the milk, but they have absolutely failed. The higher average of butter-fat is due to the quality of the cow, and not to the quality of the feed. My point is that, instead of an annual yield of £7 per cow in Australia, we should get a yield up to £12 per cow. I suppose that we have in the Commonwealth about 2,000,000 dairy cows, and one can easily imagine what it would mean to Australia to raise the average annual yield by £4 or £5 per cow. I believe that it is possible, also, to obtain better yields from our wheat-fields. It may be possible, also, to improve our yields of wool, but I think that we have, perhaps, made greater advance in this respect in the wool industry than in any other industry. A few figures concerning Denmark will, I am sure, be interesting to honorable members. The country is only 18,000 square miles in extent, and much of it had to be reclaimed from swamps. It is, in spite of this, the largest exporter of butter, bacon, and eggs to Great Britain. This is due entirely to organization. In dairying, in Denmark, they have 1,157 co-operative dairy societies, with a membership of 157,000. In the production of bacon there are thirty-four societies, with a membership of 95,000. Tor the purchase of requisites there are fifteen societies, with a membership of 65,000. This is a matter of the very greatest importance, as it indicates the way in which the co-operative companies save money by buying requisites in bulk and distributing them to their members. In societies for the export of eggs there are 52,000 members; horse-breeding, 270 societies, with 21,500 members; cattle-breeding, 1,210 societies, with 31,300 members; pig-breeding, 253 societies, with 6,430 members; sheep-breeding, 102 societies, with 850 members. Of control societies there are 519, with a total membership of 12,000. These figures represent 3,610 different societies, with 449,480 members, in a population of about 2,500,000. "We have in Denmark nearly 500,000 members of various societies, formed for the purpose of saving money. What is the result? I find that out of 183,313 dairying holdings, carrying 1,282,254 cows, there are under cooperation 154,568 holdings, carrying 1,059,956 cows. This proves that nearly all the dairymen in Denmark are members of co-operative societies, working as brethren for their own advancement by the manufacture of a superior article and the marketing of it under the best possible conditions. Great Britain requires to import every year butter to the value of £25,000,000 over and above what she produces herself, and of this amount Denmark supplies £11,000,000 worth, or nearly one-half. Of bacon, Denmark sends to Great Britain every year £6,690,000 worth, and eggs to the value of £1,500,000. Some of the rules of these Danish societies, which are, by the way, being followed in Ireland and in Great Britain, are much more rigorous than are the rules of trade unions and employers associations. For instance, a pig-raiser in Denmark has to pledge himself that every pig he raises shall be sent to the factory of the co-operative society of which he is a member. Every man who milks a cow in Denmark, and is a member of a cooperative society, is pledged to send all the milk which. is the product of that cow, over and above what he requires for the use of his own family, to the factory of the society to which he belongs. Egg-producers are pledged in the same way, and one of the regulations of the societies controlling the export of eggs from Denmark is worth quoting as a wonderful example of co-operation and organization. Every member of one of these societies has a particular number in a particular district, and that number is stamped upon every egg he sends to the control society, who export them to Great Britain. In time the numbered egg finds its way into the grocer's shop in Great Britain. If, after its purchase, it turns out to be rotten, the purchaser may return the shell with the number on it to the grocer, who, in turn, sends it back to the control society, and the control society write to the producer informing him that he has been fined for supplying a rotten egg for export, and reminding him that a repetition of the offence may lead to his expulsion from the society. It is that strict control over producers and the markets which has given to the Danish farmer the great preference which he enjoys in Great Britain. The honorable member for Corangamite will bear me out that what the Danes have done in controlling the exports from their country is wonderful. They have made up their mind to send abroad only products of the best quality, and the consumer in Great Britain knows, when he buys a pound of Danish butter, that he is getting the best quality to be obtained on the market. Of course, we in Australia produce some of the finest butter to be found in the world. 3652 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr Maloney - Our cows are not the equal of the Danish cows. 3652 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - That is true. The average product from a Danish cow is £13 10s. a year, while the average product from an Australian cow is only about £7 a year. 3652 KEB 0 0 KENDELL, William Mr Kendell - They must feed their cows better. 3652 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - In Denmark, the cows have to be stalled, for there is no such thing as turning cows adrift. The average size of a dairy farm is 20 acres, and a cow is never let loose except on some of the big farms. Some of the control societies have to import the food to feed the cows which compete with the produce of the Australian cows. It is marvellous what a Danish dairy farmer can do on 20 acres of land. He is clean, industrious, and turns out a superior article. These facts inspire confidence in the purchaser of Danish butter in Great Britain. The Danish farmers fix the price, too. Practically every day a telegram is sent from Copenhagen to Tooley-street, and other places, more particularly to Newcastle, where Danish butter is disposed of. After receiving advice from Great Britain, the price of butter in Denmark is fixed, and it is sold at that price for the day. The dairy farmers can demand their price, simply because they market an article which is well worthy of contest with the produce from other countries. Trampled down, and left practically insolvent by Napoleon, what has been the result in Denmark of the wonderful education introduced by that grand patriot, Dr. Grundtvig, who went round lecturing to the people ? He brought their education to such a pitch that, followed as it was by the cooperative movement, Denmark, instead of being one of the poorest countries per individual, to-day is one of the richest countries, comparing well with the best countries under the British flag. That result has been achieved mainly by organization. If such a system were established in Australia, there would be very little complaint about the rural workers' wages. Ample funds would find their way into the pockets of the producers through the elimination of the middleman, and the savings effected by resort to co-operation and organization. Our dairy farmers would then be able to pay a decent wage and to live under good conditions. 3653 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr King O'Malley - It was Napoleon who divided up the estates in Denmark. 3653 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - No; he extracted as much as he could from the pockets of the Danes when he practically bestrode Europe. To-day, in Denmark, there are nearly 200,000 land-holders in a population of a little over 2,000,000. The suggestion I am going to make to the Minister of Trade and Customs would, I believe, bring about better results than could be derived from the establishment of a Bureau of Agriculture. In Ireland the dairymen were in a very bad state until the Irish Agricultural Organization Society was formed, with Sir Horace Plunkett at its head. He organized the dairymen to such an extent that to-day they are in a much better position than ever they were. He said to the dairymen, ' 1 Dairying has reached such a pitch of perfection in Denmark that the best thing we can do is to send a committee of Irish dairymen to that country, to make investigations and submit a report." His suggestion was adopted, and largely from the circulation of the report which was made, and organization, has followed the wonderful results which the Irish dairyman has been able to achieve. Are we in Australia content to be behind other countries in this respect ? We have had a visit from Scottish farmers, and also a delegation of Danish farmers and experts. America, Denmark, France, Germany, and even Great Britain are awakening to the importance of sending delegations of farmers to different parts of the world. Why ? In order to pick up the latest information in almost every line of rural industry. In my opinion, incalculable benefit has resulted from the sending of practical men in that way from one country to another. It has undoubtedly been of material help to Ireland. It has assisted, too, Denmark and other countries. Why should we, in Australia, be content to know less in regard to the production and exportation of wool, wheat, butter, cheese, maize, and meat? If we could get the latest information on those subjects by a policy of co-operation between the Commonwealth Government and the State Governments, the money would have been well spent. Let a sum of money be voted for the purpose of sending delegations of practical men to other countries to collect the latest information, and great results would accrue to our primary producers, I believe. The delegations would come back armed with the most useful information it is possible to glean abroad. Not only would their reports be printed, but, being capable men, the delegates could go to the rural districts and tell the farmers in meeting assembled exactly what methods are pursued in other countries. That is one of the ways in which producers elsewhere are going ahead of our producers by leaps and bounds. Of course, no harm would be done even if it were discovered, in same cases, that producers elsewhere are not so far ahead as our producers are. If, however, it were- found that in America, Denmark,-France, Great Britain, or Germany something is being done which would be of much benefit to our rural producers, our delegates would present the facts to us, and by that means we would not only obtain a considerable amount of practical information, . but should be able to furnish very valuable help, indeed, to our producers. I am not against the establishment of an Agricultural Bureau, which, however, I cannot discuss now, as it forms the subject of a measure on the business-paper. If a delegation of twelve practical men, provided with a secretary and an expert, were appointed to go abroad early next year, and visit two or three of the countries ' I have named, I guarantee that they would return armed with. a stock of information which would be of immediate benefit to our producers. If the producer in this country is content to sit idly by and allow the producer in other countries to adopt superior methods, and, by that means, to pass him in the race for the markets of the world, he is doomed to failure. But if he is alive to his best interests, and wishes to farm his land on the most up-to-date lines,, he must be brought into close contact, with the methods in up-to-date countries. I commend my suggestion to the consideration of the Minister of Trade and Customs, and will proceed to say a few words in respect to the policy of the Government in departing from the day-labour system to the contract system. In my judgment, they are making a great mistake. They are rushing to the contractor on every possible occasion. We may get our work done a little more cheaply, but once we have disorganized the fine body of workmen collected under some' of the Departments, and also disposed 'of the material which they have been using in building and other operations, the contractors will be in a position to obtain the last pound of flesh. I want to know whether the Government, who fight so shy of preference to unionists, are not showing the most deliberate preference to unionists. I say that they are. The Contractors and Builders Association, if it is not a political body, subscribes to the Employers Federation, which is a political body. It contributes to election funds. 3654 KEB 0 0 KENDELL, William Mr Kendell - All the contractors are not members of that association. Mr.FENTON. - That kind of talk will not go down. I submit that the Contractors and Builders Association and the Employers Federation are political bodies and subscribe to the political funds of honorable members opposite. I have a letter signed by the secretary and treasurer of the Employers Federation here, intimating that, when the last Queensland elections were on, over £3,000 was sent to the employers of Queensland to help them in the campaign. It is to individuals of this class that honorable members opposite are giving contracts. What is the difference between giving preference to contractors who contribute to your political funds, and giving preference to workmen who may or may not contribute to our funds ? 3654 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Does the honorable member say that preference is given to certain contractors ? 3654 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Preference is being shown to the contractors as against the day labourers. The Government material for use in the construction of public works is being disposed of, and the fine tody of workmen that has been organized are being dispersed. Later, the Government will find that it has to pay the contractors their own prices. Honorable members opposite cannot deny that the Employers Federation contributes largely to the political funds of their party. The contractors are in the federation, and, therefore, the Government is leaning towards men who want to dip into the public purse. Ministers are giving their party-political friends a " look in." There is more corruption in connexion with contracting than in connexion- with anything else. Even in supplying the requirements of the War Office, when patriotism might be expected to exercise a restraining influence, contractors have repeatedly acted dishonestly towards the British Government. The Attorney-General, speaking of unionism, said - If I had my own way, I would say that Parliament should wipe off the statute-book as the ugliest blot ever put upon it, a provision which enables a legal tribunal to grant a legal preference to unionists in any shape. But this proposal is only one short step. It may be an important step. The honorable member for West Sydney has said that it is an important step, that it will affect practically nine-tenths of the existing unions. Although the Attorney-General does not believe in preference to unionists in the ordinary sense, he believes in unionism for the members of his profession, for a lawyer has no chance of remunerative em'ployment unless he joins the union to which the Attorney-General belongs. Some of the rules of the union are more drastic than could be found in connexion with any organization, without going back some centuries of British history; and, even now, if a man does anything against the interests of the association, he is brought before a secret committee. The other day, we had a Judge actually threatening a legal luminary here to send him before that committee. I do not object to this unionism, but those who are members of unions should not object to unionism ot a kind similar to their own. There has never been, since the inauguration of Federation, a more Tory Government in power in the Commonwealth than that which we now have; and, for the information of its members and supporters, let me draw attention to some of the benefits that have accrued in this community from organization. The Carpenters and Joiners Union was established in 1860. It has 84,131 members - there being 13,000 in Australia and New Zealand. The benefits distributed in fifty-three years total £4,000,000, divided as follows: - Unemployed relief, £1,416,954; tools, £92,245; sickness, £1,011,560; funerals, £182,063 ; accidents, £98,055 ; superannuation, £638,401 ; trade privileges, £379,443 ; benevolent grants, £66,931 ; grants to other trades, £37o,774- The aid of the law was invoked in 97,000 cases, resulting in £2,000,000 in wages being recovered from employers. That union, like many others, has conferred considerable benefits on the community : yet honorable members opposite would make it appear that these institutions are not beneficial to our society. As a matter of fact, the unions are helping to bring about better government. They stand for organization and discipline, and give opportunities for the learning of business methods. They are conferring incalculable benefits upon the community, and, according to Bishop Ingram, next to Christianity no other influence in the British Empire has been more beneficial to humanity. 3655 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - That is the answer that the honorable member makes to the Attorney-General. 3655 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - The honorable member for Capricornia, who, like myself, is a member of the Typographical Society, knows the benefits that that society has conferred on its members and others. The Victorian branch of the society, and, I believe, its other branches, are in a position to insist on preference being given to its members. Here, if any one in the printing trade requires a man, he sends to the Trades Hall. The same thing is done in other trades, because it is found that in that way the best workmen are obtained, and many leading employers adopt the same method. I do not know what the Minister of Trade and Customs is doing in regard to the Printers Combine, but the following letter, signed by John F. Bracken, and dated the 1st October, which appeared in the daily papers recently, gives interesting information concerning it. Mr. Bracken is secretary of the non-Typothetae Master Printers, and wrote just after the Conference of Master Printers had been held in Brisbane. He said - The suggestion made at the recent conference at Brisbane of the Master Printers' Association (vide the Age report) that the Federal Attorney-General should be supplied with information regarding Typothetae is indicative of a natural feeling of alarm that the Commonwealth Parliament might be induced to inquire into the legality of the combine. If Mr. Irvine finds that a combine does exist he is to be advised that " it would be better to let the matter alone." Gratuitous advice, based on personal considerations, is a characteristic of Typothetae It is to be doubted, however, if Typothetae is really anxious to give the Attorney-General full access to its operations. At last year's conference at Adelaide, when the foundations of the institution were laid, the strictest secrecy was observed on some points. The Australian Printer, officially recognised as the organ of Typothetae, reported the Adelaide conference. Some excerpts make very interesting reading : - 1. It was decided that, "In view of the legal aspect, the discussion on the papers dealing wilh Typothetae be taken in camera." 3. A Victorian master printer said (after the discussion in secret) : ".The legal aspect of Typothetae, as shown by opinions read and cases cited, would need very careful handling. From the highest authority in Victoria (Mr. Mitchell), he was advised that their interests would be best served by going slowly, cautiously, and deliberately, and that no written record be preserved. He trusted that no compact would be signed. Should it be found absolutely necessary that correspondence pass between the secretaries of the different States, he suggested that each letter be returned to the office of origin, and that they finally be destroyed." 3. A Queensland delegate remarked : " Sooner or later they would be forced into the position of testing legal opinion. . . . They were providing a reserve fund, so that when the time came they would have something put by the better to sustain the fight." 4. Touching the attitude of master printers who held aloof from Typothetae, the journal from which I quote, in summarising the conference, stated : " If argument and persuasion do not have the desired result, then other steps will have to be taken. . . . The means to be adopted was to make it unprofitable for them (the recalcitrants) to stay outside." Truly this newly-born zeal for publicity on the part of Typothetae is calculated to place it in an awkward fix. Honorable members opposite often complain about the force that is used by trade unionists, and some of them even object to moral suasion; but what do they think of the statement that I have just read? I do not say that the Minister of Trade and Customs is opposed to preference to unionists, because I understand that he was a member of the Administration that provided for it in the arbitration law, but the Attorney-General, who is a powerful member of the Ministry, would destroy that provision if he could, and has called it one of the ugliest blots on our statute-book. It may be that when the affairs of the Typothetae are investigated, it will be found to be a perfectly proper combination; but the point I wish to make is that the employers who object to trade unionism are themselves combining, and are applying to those who will not join them even stricter rules than are applied by ordinary trade unions. If a printer stands outside the Typothetae, when he goes to a wholesale man for printing paper, that man first consults his list, and should the printer's name not be on it, charges considerably more for the paper, that is, if he consents to supply any. Consequently, printing is made unprofitable for those who are not members of the Typothetae. A short time ago two printers were tendering for printing work to be done for the Prahran Council. The Printers Combine insisted that the prices asked should be the same in both tenders, but one man put in a tender below that of the. other, and, for doing so, he was accounted a very bad person indeed. The master printers may be right in combining, but those who use organization to benefit themselves should not object to the labourer, who has only his brain and muscle between him and starvation, from organizing to enable him to dispose of his labour to the best advantage. The Rev. F. C. Wood said to the rural producers recently: "If you do not organize, then, if worse things come on you, you will deserve them." I hope to see organization in every branch of industry. A well-organized community is easily governed. Both sides should be organized. Let me now refer to the Commonwealth Bank, to which the Prime Minister and the Treasurer are for ever making slighting references. The Treasurer, more than any other man in the community, should he ready to defend the Governor of the bank, but it would seem that he cannot say anything too disrespectful of the bank's management. I hope the people will note this. The Treasurer has complained over and over again that he has no power over the Governor. I am thankful that he has not, because if he had, I am afraid that the bank would soon become of a political character. The late Government were wise in placing it beyond Government control, and in the hands of a man who, I believe, will conduct it on right lines. Notwithstanding that the Savings Bank branch is paying a lower rate of interest than is given by the State Savings Banks, it has deposits amounting to over £3,500,000. If the Governor would make up his mind to give an additional half per cent., I am confident that the deposits in the State Savings Banks would be very considerably reduced, and that a corresponding increase would take place in the Commonwealth Savings Bank deposits. The workers are just as keen as are other people to obtain the best interest on their money, but I am inclined to admire the Governor for having taken up, so far, what may be said to be, in a sense, a rather conservative stand. I hope we shall not hear so much as we have in regard to the rural workers. To my mind, they are one of the most deserving classes of men in the community. They are doing very necessary work, but are disorganized, and consequently are badly treated. I have put before the Committee a picture of the life of the English farm labourer, and I hope that we shall never see its like here. If we are to avoid such a thing, we must protect the men against the unfair employers There are to-day, both in New South Wales and Victoria, farmers who are recognising the claim made on behalf of these men by the Australian Workers Union. If those on the land would provide better conditions for their men - if they would provide them with small plots of land and little homes, and give them some encouragement - they would have a very desirable class of men offering for employment; and the men would carry out the work devolving upon them in a much better way, and help the farmers much more than they do at present. The primary producers and the rural workers seem to be at daggers drawn. That ought not to be, but no blame attaches to the rural workers, because they have been seeking a conference for months, and the employers have declined to meet them. If such a conference took place, I am certain that many of the difficulties which some honorable members see in the way would be removed, and that there would be a satisfactory settlement of the dispute. Only by treating your workmen well can you get the very best out of them. I hope that w.e are not going to degenerate into the low conditions that prevail in other parts of the world. If the man on the land generally would only rid himself of the incubus upon him in the snape of the middleman - if he would only do his own marketing, as the dairy farmers are doing at present - he would have ample funds to enable him to pay the rural worker all that he requires. In conclusion, let me express the hope that we shall hear no more of this reviling of the. Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, and that he will be allowed to carry on his work in a manner conducive to the welfare of the bank and of the people. The bank may not show very big figure records, but it has served the country well by preventing other institutions in Australia from charging still higher rates of interest. But for the National Bank, we should have had to pay far more than even the exorbitant rates of interest that have been charged of recent months. As a result of the action of the Commonwealth Bank in lending money at reasonable rates, the rates charged by other banks have been brought down. In that respect alone, it has conferred a great benefit on the people. Even if the man on the land cannot borrow what he desires from the bank itself, he has been able, by reason of its establishment, to obtain money from other banks at lower rates than would otherwise have been possible. I protest once more against the way in which some of the figures have been presented in the Budget, and trust that we shall hear no more from the representatives of the producers in regard to their inability to pay what is asked by the rural workers, or the wages that might be fixed on appeal to the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court. I hope that resort will be had to that Court. The Labour party are in favour of all these matters being adjusted in a reasonable way, and I believe that the difficulty in regard to the rural workers can be satisfactorily settled only by resort to the Conciliation and Arbitration Court. A Wages Board award would not be satisfactory. A Wages Board sitting in New South Wales might determine upon certain rates for that State, whilst a totally different scale of wages might be fixed by a Wages Board in Victoria; whereas an award of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court would apply equally to all parts of Australia where the work could be carried on under similar conditions. Why should a man working on one side of the Murray receive lower wages than a man on the other side ? Nothing leads to more turmoil and industrial unrest than does differentiation between men doing the same kind of work. I also trust that the Ministry will consider my suggestion that a delegation of practical men, representing all kinds of rural work, should be sent abroad, and that, on their return, they should deliver lectures on the results of their investigations. Other countries are doing the same kind of thing, and if we do not wish, to fall behind in our rural industries, I think that we ought to adopt that course. Mr. LAIRD SMITH (Denison) [5.42J. -I wish to bring under the notice of the Government a non-party question, which, is of very great importance to Tasmania. At the outset, I must express my indebtedness to the southern press - and particularly to the Daily Post and the Hobart Mercury - for the information which I propose to put before the Committee. The Government recently entered into a contract with the shipping' companies for an improved mail service between Tasmania and the mainland. 1 do not know whether the contract has yet. been signed, but, even if it has not been,, the Minister has probably so involved himself that it will not be possible for him to alter the terms of the agreement. The service, no doubt, will be an improved one ; but I, in common with many other citizens of Tasmania, and particularly the commercial section of the community, believe that we are paying too much for our whistle. The Government are about to pay an additional subsidy of £2,000 a year- or a total of £15,000 per annum - for the purpose of securing better shipping facilities between Tasmania and the mainland. In southern Tasmania - I refer to the Derwent - we have one of the finest harbors in the world. Commanders of ocean-going steam-ships support this statement, and also say that it is the cheapest port any vessel can enter. Mr. Murdoch - a member of the Marine Board, and also a member of the Legislative Council of Tasmania, and no one would accuse a member of that House of having Labour sympathies - states that the cost of entering the Derwent is about one-fourth the cost of entering any other port in the Commonwealth. A new wharf has just been constructed by day labour at Hobart, and I understand that there is 65 feet of water alongside, so that it is possible to accommodate there the largest ship afloat. In the circumstances, we naturally expected that this would be one of the first ports of call ; and we hope that, in the near future, it will become a distributing centre for many of the ports of Australia. At th present time, however, freights from the United Kingdom to Hobart are higher than from the United Kingdom to any other part of the Commonwealth. The reason for this I cannot give. A little information on the subject might have been given at a recent meeting of the Hobart Marine Board had not a member deeply interested in the shipping companies stopped a discussion of the subject by raising a point of order. I would strongly recommend honorable members to read a sub-leader which appeared in the Daily Post of 26th ultimo, entitled, " The Scandal of Freight," and another article of a similar character, which appeared on the 28th ultimo. The Hobart Mercury of the 26th ultimo also published an interesting article on the subject. Both these newspapers have taken up the question, which is a non-party one, and I would strongly recommend the honorable member for Franklin and the honorable member for Wilmot to read the articles to which I have referred. If they would co-operate with representatives of Tasmania oh this :side of the House, it might be possible to bring to bear on the Government sufficient pressure to cause action to prevent the people of Tasmania being charged such high rates as they have to pay for the carriage of produce and general merchandise. It is somewhat remarkable that the only article of commerce the freight on which from the Old Country is the same to all parts of Australia is tin plate. Tin plate is largely used in the making of cans required by jam manufacturers, and we have in Tasmania the largest jam factory in Australia. I find that the freight on tin plate is 27s. 6d. per ton to Hobart, and precisely the same to Melbourne or Sydney. But from Liverpool to Melbourne or Sydney the freight on other articles- is 31s. 3d., as against 43s. 9d. per ton to Hobart. The freights on nails are as follow : - London to Melbourne or Sydney, 22s. 6d. per ton; London to Hobart, 36s. 3d. per ton. Then, again, nails are landed at Hobart and run through to Launceston by rail. They are delivered at Launceston for only 35s. a ton, although the railway freight from Hobart to Launceston has to be paid. The constituents of the honorable member for Franklin, and the constituents of the honorable, member for Wilmot, are large users, of nails for orchard and other work, and those honorable members should, therefore, be keenly alive to this anomaly. It is about 1,200 miles from Hobart to Auckland and Wellington, and the same class of material is carried there for 22s. 6d. per ton, or 12s. per ton less than to Hobart. In the case of fencing wire, another commodity used by farmers and others on the land, the freight from London to Melbourne or Sydney is 26s. 3d. per ton; while to Hobart it is 36s. 3d., or 10s. more. . The freight on barbed wire from London to Melbourne or Sydney is 21s. 3d. per ton, and to Hobart, 36s. 3d.; but it can be sent right through to Auckland and Wellington for 23s. 9d. per ton. Freight on galvanized iron from London to Melbourne or Sydney, is 26s. 3d., and to Hobart, 30s. ; while if sent through by rail to Launceston, it is 38s. 9d. In the case of rough-measurement cargo, the freight from London or Liverpool to Melbourne or Sydney is 45s. per ton; to Hobart, it is from 52s. 6d. to 57s. 6d. : while the same class of cargo can be sent to New Zealand for 47s. 6d., and by one line of boats for 45s. 3659 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - And this Government are renewing the agreement. 3659 KTU Denison ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The Government are renewing an agreement to bolster up a combine that exists between the shipping companies of Australia, to use the honorable member for Franklin's own words. The Government subsidize that company on the plea of getting a better mail service, so as to demonstrate to the people that they have no desire to establish a Commonwealth-owned line, because the Labour Government made a splendid suggestion to them to build their own line of steam-ships and run them between Tasmania and the mainland. They desire to be contrary in every way to the late Government, and, as usual, to build up private enterprise. Honorable members on the other side represent private enterprise, and desire to perpetuate a system that is really taking from the producer in the State of Tasmania money which should stay in his pocket. I cannot get a direct statement from any leg9 gentleman as to the powers of the InterState Commission : but I hope that that body will have power to look into such a question as this,- and take steps to prevent the continuance of these' anomalies, which really give preference to certain tradespeople on the mainland. As the writer of the article' I have named puts it, under the existing system, it pays shippers to land material for Tasmania on the mainland, load it into the Interstate ships, and send it over to Tasmania in them. I remind the honorable member for Franklin, and the honorable member for Wilmot, that their power in this House is almost illimitable; because either of them can consider himself the Government's majority, and all he has to do is to hold up his finger in the House to compel the Government to do what he likes. Unfortunately, I am not in that position ; but I am willing to sink all party differences and give those honorable members every' assistance in breaking down a condition of things that should not be allowed to exist. The Government have, I believe, the power to break up the combine which the honorable member for Franklin has so often alleged to exist in the case of shipping in Australia. 3659 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - I sa\ so now. 3659 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I am glad of that interjection, and would remind the honorable member that he is even more powerful than was that other Tasmanian- member, Mr. Cameron, when he was here. If the honorable member would only exercise the great power he possesses, he could do a great deal of good. T believe I am correct in surmizing that the honorable member had a great deal to do recently with getting a certain Bill relating to the Tasmanian gra'nt brought before the House; and, if he will exercise the same pressure again, I feel sure that he can assist the shippers of produce from Tasmania to the mainland. 3659 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The Tasmanian grant was a different matter from touching a combine. 3659 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Of course, we can see how far-reaching this combine is, and the great power it has, when we find that the manager of one of the companies was able, on a point of order, to stop discussion in the Marine Board meeting at Hobart. Both newspapers, however, sinking party differences for the good of the country, in order to give the port of Hobart a fair deal, published facts and figures that must astound not only honorable members, but the people generally. 3659 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - They stopped discussion here when we were " gagged." 3659 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I really hope that the honorable member for Franklin will follow me in this debate, and speak to the point as he did before; and that before he resumes his seat he will intimate to the Government of the day that, at an early date, he will insist on the Inter-State Commission exercising all the powers they possess to try to break down the existing state of things. From the remarks of the honorable member for Wimmera one would think that honorable members on this side of the House, and the Labour party generally, were totally opposed to immigration, or the introduction of people to settle on the land. Personally, I warmly welcome any one who comes here to settle, because every newcomer relieves the man who is already here of a certain part of the burden he is bearing. Every man that we can bring here from any country, who is white, and a worker, will benefit Australia, but we do not want men brought from London to compete with the men that we have in our cities at the present time. We want people to come here from other parts of the world to settle our lands, and to produce wealth, because we believe that that country is the wealthiest that nourishes the greatest number of happy and healthy individuals. When the honorable member for Wimmera was speaking the other day of the recent enormous increase of population in Victoria by means of immigration, I interjected that a State member had been reported to have said that every immigrant coming into Victoria had cost somewhere about £800. I do not know whether that is so or not, but I also intimated that Victoria was not retaining its population, and the honorable member replied that I should read up the statistics. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - What can you expect with the present Government? 3660 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I have looked up the statistics, and, fearing that I might have read them wrongly, I this morning consulted the statistician to make sure that I had read them correctly. I find it stated on page 9 of Bulletin No. 19 for July, 1913, that nominated and selected immigrants had arrived in Victoria during the first seven months of 1913 to the number of 6,463. Nevertheless, on page 4, the statistician shows that, for the first six months of 1913, the excess of emigration over immigration for Victoria was 275. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - The record of the Watt Ministry has been to deplete the population, and increase the number of members of Parliament. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I must ask the honorable member for Adelaide not to interject. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - An ordinary interjection is in order in ordinary circumstances. I do not want to be bitten by the Chairman every time I open my mouth. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! It is not the first time the honorable member has spoken during the course of the speech of the honorable member for Denison. The honorable member has been continually interrupting. 3660 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - Not continually. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Very frequently. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I do not want to be jumped on by the Chairman every time I make an interjection. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I have already pointed out on other occasions that there is less justification for an honorable member interrupting who is on the same side as the speaker. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - It was not an interruption; it was an interjection. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Adelaide does not make an interjection only. He frequently utters lengthy sentences - a practice which I cannot allow. 3660 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - You will get yourself into trouble, Mr. Chairman, if you lecture honorable members in that way. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I am here to see that debate is carried on according to the Standing Orders. If I cannot maintain order, I shall see that something else is done. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I shall interject when I wish to. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I hope the honorable member will not assume that defiant attitude. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I am not defiant. 1 am quite respectful. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is quite out of order in making interjections when an honorable member is speaking. 3660 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - So is any other honorable member out of order in that case. 3660 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Undoubtedly; and it is my duty to check interjections if they are made to any undue degree, as has been the case with the honorable member for Adelaide. 3660 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I differ from you. 3660 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The interjections of the honorable member for Adelaide have been rather . helpful to me, as he has reminded me of the fact that the Victorian Government are increasing the number of members in the State Parliament, whereas, according to the figures I have quoted, the population of Victoria is on the decrease. It is remarkable to find that the States that hold their population, and are settling people on the land, are New South Wales and Western Australia - the States which have Labour Governments. They are bringing out immigrants, quite a number of whom have come from the Old Land since Labour Governments have been in power there. In each of these States we find that the immigrants are retained, and surely this ought to refute the allegation made in this House, and outside, that the Labour party, and Labour members generally, are opposed to the peopling of the lands of the country. We are not at all opposed - at least, I am not - to immigration, but we welcome all, provided they are able to go on to the land, and do not become competitors in an over-crowded labour market. 3661 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - It is disgraceful- 3661 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Order! How dare the honorable member interject? 3661 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I hope the honorable member for Adelaide will not continue this attitude of insolence towards the Chair, otherwise he will be dealt with. 3661 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - I did not mention the Chair; I did not look at you. 3661 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I am too old a parliamentary hand not to know when insolence is meant, and I wish to inform the honorable member that I cannot tolerate it. 3661 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - As a point of order, may I say that I have certain privileges in this Chamber, and that I certainly object to your calling me insolent merely because I interject. At the same time, it is not uncommon for an honorable member to call " order " when another honorable member interjects. 3661 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It is quite out of order for an honorable member who is not in the chair to call "order." 3661 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - Protectionists in particular should feel indebted to the honorable member for Maribyrnong for bringing under our notice the existing state of affairs in regard to the sugar industry in Queensland. No State suffers more than Tasmania owing to what I may call the subsidizing of the growing of sugar in Queensland. 3661 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - What about jam? 3661 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Holloa! Is there a split in the party? 3661 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! 3661 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - We know that, no matter on 'which side of the House Queensland members may sit, they always work hand in hand in regard to anything affecting the interests of their State; and Tasmanian members may learn a lesson thereby. The honorable member for Capricornia has nothing to be alarmed at if white labour in the sugar industry be insisted on. I may say, however, that when this question comes before the House I shall assist the honorable member for Maribyrnong to have the duty removed if black labour is employed. It is most unfair that growers who use black labour should reap the benefit. 3661 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - Hear hear! And I shall help the honorable member to do it. 3661 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - We all know how hard the honorable member for Herbert works in. the interest of the sugar-growing community. We know that that honorable member is in favour of a White Australia, but, at the same time, we cannot expect him to speak otherwise than he has on behalf of the industry, and when he interjected during the speech of the honorable member for Maribyrnong, I take it that uppermost in his mind were the interests of his district. I hope the honorable member will not think I am dealing too severely with him if I say now that I certainly shall not assist him to retain the duty if sugar is to be produced by coloured labour. Notwithstanding the honorable member's pleading and winning way, I shall refuse to take any such step, but, on the other hand, will help the honorable member for Maribyrnong, who has placed southern consumers under a debt of gratitude. 3661 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - The honorable member will not improve matters if we get our sugar from Java or the West Indies. 3661 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - What does it matter where the sugar is grown if it is by means of coloured labour? 3661 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I have always understood that the duty was put on in order that we might have white-grown sugar. 3661 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr Page - The honorable member for Capricornia knows that, too. 3661 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - We do not desire to do any injury to the sugar industry in Queensland. I have been wondering whether the information contained in a monthly share-list that is received by honorable members has anything to do with the present position. In that share-list we read - As mentioned above, business in Industrials has been more general. Colonial sugar, however, retains pride of place, there being a constant demand, and the shares, allowing for the dividend, are £1 higher, at£42 17s. 6d. The yield to the investor is 5$ per cent., and issues of bonus shares can confidently be expected. We pointed out above the advantage of bonus issues over those at par, and those who buy sugars now should have no reason to be dissatisfied with the growth of the investment. As we said last month, the stock is regaining its old-time popularity, and we look for a continuous rise for some time to come. 3662 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWilliams - The removal of the bounty gives them nearly £100,000 a year. 3662 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Why not call other honorable members to order when they interject? 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I wish to explain to the honorable member for Adelaide that I am quite willing to turn a deaf ear to any casual interjection, but the honorable member frequently goes beyond that, and utters quite lengthy and elaborate sentences. 3662 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Quite a lengthy and elaborate sentence was uttered by the honorable member for Franklin. 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I must be allowed to exercise a little judgment in these matters. 3662 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - Then exercise it impartially, Mr. Chairman. 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I wish to assure the honorable member that so long as he does not appear to be interfering with the speech of an honorable member who has possession of the floor, and shouting long sentences in the ear of the Hansard reporter directly in front of him, I shall not interfere. 3662 KZG ALP 0 0 ROBERTS, Ernest Mr ROBERTS - If you like, Mr. Chairman, I shall take a seat on the other side. 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - If the honorable member is entitled , to a seat opposite, I have no objection at all; and I hope that, on this understanding, we shall get along a little more pleasantly. 3662 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - I had not the slightest intention- 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -Order ! I call on the honorable member for Denison. 3662 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - You, Mr. Chairman, say that you are going to use certain discretion. It is either right or wrong for an honorable member to interject, and if it is wrong, he ought not to do so. I contend that there is no discretion on your part to allow any honorable member to interject. 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Kennedy knows perfectly well that there is always a discretion exercised by the Chair. 3662 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - No, I do not; and I hope you will not attribute such a ruling to me. 3662 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Kennedy himself exercised such a discretion for a considerable time, and it is his example that I am endeavouring, to the best of my ability, to follow. 3662 KQP 0 0 MCDONALD, Charles Mr McDonald - I wish to tell you, Mr. Chairman, that I never ruled that I had discretion in that way, and if you think there is discretion, you are absolutely wrong. 3662 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - I do not know whether, under the circumstances, I am expected to keep my remarks connected. 3662 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Go on; the honorable member was speaking about Colonial sugar shares as a good investment. 3662 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - And, no doubt, they are a good investment. I was of opinion, until this morning, that if the duty were removed, sugar would come down in price; but a gentleman has informed me that the great combine that controls the industry has power outside the country, and that it is very doubtful whether such effect would follow if the duty were removed to-morrow. We are told by the Attorney-General that the Government are looking into the matter of the trusts, and are going to deal with them - that all that we have to do is to bring forward evidence, and proceedings will immediately be taken. This, however, we have been told ever since the Government came into power, and yet the trusts are going on in their own sweet way. The other day the honorable member for Oxley brought under the notice of the Government a glaring case of a trust, but not the slightest attention was paid to him; indeed, from what was said here, and subsequently outside, one would think that there had been really misrepresentations made in this respect. The Age of 5th November last distinctly says that there is a' trust existing at the present time in Australia, and that it is connected with a larger trust that has a capital of £40,000,000. The Age, in its article, says - The American Beef Trust is extending its grip upon the Commonwealth of Australia. What was eighteen months ago a matter of ill-defined rumours of the intentions of one of the most important members of this vast international combination of American capitalists and refrigerating, packing, and meat selling experts, is now a matter of well authenticated fact. The trust is here, and by1st September, 1914, at latest, the largest establishment for the freezing or chilling of Australian meat for export, which it has acquired, will be in full working order. Minor establishments, either already acquired from their former Australian owners, or in process of acquisition, will be under full trust control probably before that date. We have the Attorney-General, the Prime Minister, and others asking that proof shall be brought forward ; but they might as well say straight out that they have no power to deal with trusts. The Age article proceeds - It is said 1,000 men are at work on then week by week. They will constitute an establishment capable of killing and freezing 450 cattle and 2,000 sheep per day, or, allowing 300 working days in the year, 135,000 head of cattle and 600,000 sheep per annum. As a new " competitor " for the cattle of the northern State, and the northern rivers of New South Wales, the advent of the trust works is regarded with feelings of great satisfaction by cattle raisers. Something ought to be done in regard to this important question of trusts. There is no doubt that trusts are getting a hold in Australia, and if steps are not taken immediately we shall have as much trouble to get rid of them as is experienced in the United States. There is another matter I should like to refer to, and that is the statement which has been continually made outside the House by Ministers as to the alleged extravagance of the Fisher Government - the waste of money in the enormous expenditure alleged to have been made by the late Administration ; but honorable members surely must have realized ere this that the people outside are beginning to think for themselves, and that Ministers' statements in this direction will not carry any weight. I congratulate the Treasurer upon his Budget-papers. They "were excellently compiled, and in such a concise form that their meaning could be quickly grasped. They have been a valuable aid to myself, and, I believe, to the people of Australia. From them we find that the actual Commonwealth expenditure for 1912-13, during the Fisher regime, was £23,111,462, while the estimated expenditure for 1913-14 during the present regime, is £27,246,747 - or an increase of' £4,135,285. The Ministers' excuse for this increase is that it is owing to commitments by the late Government. Are present Ministers responsible for what the late Government suggested might be done? They are not carrying out in their administration many of the acts of the late Government. For instance, the late Government would never have thought of knocking off 7d. per day from the office cleaners, in order to make a saving to the Commonwealth. That they have done so is a disgrace. 3663 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Who did it? 3663 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - It is said that the Public Service Commissioner did it. 3663 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - It is the first I have heard of it. 3663 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - There is no honorable member who would not assist the Treasurer to have justice done to these people. I believe they have to come to work at 5 o'clock in the morning in order to complete their work before the other members of the Commonwealth Service attend at their offices. Go to the waterside, or to any other sphere of work, and such attendance would be called overtime, and double time, or time and a half would be paid; yet we find the present Government cutting a paltry 7d. per day off these office cleaners, and that in a wealthy country like this, where the wealth is increasing by leaps and bounds, as so ably shown by the honorable member for Hindmarsh. I suppose this is where the saving of a million is made that the Prime Minister boasts of. To my amazement, the other day, when an honorable member was speaking, the Prime Minister interjected, " How can you get a knowledge of all the Departments in five months ?" How do Ministers get the knowledge enabling them to' save this million ? The Treasurer, in his reply to this debate, should show the country where this million has been saved. In my opinion, it is all a myth - a placard put out for the purpose of trying to deceive those it is thought will be again asked to exercise the franchise at a general election. However, we shall be able to tell the people of Australia that this saving has not been made, and that the Government of the day are afraid to interfere with a piece of the legislation placed on the statute-book by the Fisher Government. The gentleman who opposed me in Denison had the courage to say straight out that he was against the land tax, and would repeal it if he were returned. Have the Government done anything along this line, or along the lines they suggested before they got into power ? Decidedly not. So I hope we shall soon hear the last of this cry by responsible Ministers that the Labour party were responsible for an enormous expenditure. We are reverting to the old system of government - the good old borrowing policy. We find the Government of Australia launching out on a borrowing policy to construct works that are not of a productive nature. They are borrowing for military purposes - a thing unknown even in the Old Land. I wish to say with emphasis that I am strongly opposed to borrowing, even from our Trust Funds, the sum of £175,000 for the purpose of installing machinery at Cockatoo Island, in New South Wales, to make munitions of war and for the construction of ships. Such machinery should be paid for out of revenue. In addition, "the Government purpose to borrow for conduits. We all know that conduits are of a very perishable nature. It is said that they will last fifteen years, but that is a matter of opinion, and it is questionable whether long before that time something will not have superseded them, in which case they will have very little value. We should do all this work out of revenue. The Fisher Government did it out of revenue, and the present Government should continue along the same lines. Sitting suspended from 5.28 to 5.55 p.m. 3664 miscellaneous Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) agreed to- That the Chairman do now leave, the chair, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. 3664 F4S Parramatta LP Prime Minister and Minister of Home Affairs 1 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - In submitting the motion with which I intend to conclude my remarks, one scarcely knows what to say in such bewildering circumstances. One fatality following upon the heels of another makes one wonder who will be the next to add to this ghastly toll which is towering up so far as this Federal Parliament is concerned. It makes one wonder if there is not some special fatality attaching to our meeting here, and what may be the cause of it. But whatever may be the cause, it is certainly our melancholy duty to make mention of the fact that another brilliant life has closed. I am quite sure I echo the sentiments of every honorable member in this House when I say that the personality which has just ebbed away in the Hall was a very brilliant one indeed, full of promise . for the future, and one of whom the highest hopes were entertained by all members of this Chamber. It seemed to be only a matter of time 'when he would be fulfilling the highest functions attached to the government of the country, and in connexion with our Parliamentary Government. I cannot voice too highly my appreciation of his splendid intellectual abilities, and of his high devotion to duty. I am not quite sure whether his devotion to his duties here has not tended to hasten the termination of his life. He was here at the beginning of each sitting, he was here at its close, and he was generally here throughout the interval between those two points. I verily believe that his sheer devotion to his duties has helped to undermine his health, which it now appears was not robust, until it brought about the result that we have witnessed to-day. I do not know that I can add very much more. One's feelings get the better of one's brain at such a time, when these fatalities follow each other in such quick succession. I can only add the expression of my great sorrow at the closing of the life which we now mourn. I hope that those who are near and dear to our departed friend will be comforted in their sad hour of trial, and that that help which we are unable to furnish will be given to them to sustain them in this their time of need. We do not understand all that is taking place in connexion with these matters. It is our duty, therefore, to content ourselves here and now with recording the fact that another life, full of promise, big with hope, and with legitimate aspirations, all in the bloom and ardour of a full manhood, has been cut short. The sun has gone down while it is yet day. I only hope that those of us who remain may do our duty in our day and generation, and that we shall hasten to do. it, because we do not know how soon we, too, may be summoned to our account. I hope that when the tally of our life comes to be taken, we shall be found to have done our duty - as I firmly and conscientiously believe he whose loss we now mourn did his. I move - That this House places on record its high appreciation of the great public services of the late member for Adelaide, the late Honorable E. A. Roberts, and tenders its sincere sympathy to the bereaved family of an eminent citizen, whose untimely decease is a great loss to the Commonwealth. 3665 F4N Wide Bay 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER .- A few minutes ago a great personality, a member of this House, and a colleague of my own, passed away to that bourne whence no traveller returns. The Prime Minister has spoken kindly of his talents, and I agree with every word which the honorable gentleman' said in that regard. His work was, of course, more keenly appreciated by my colleagues and myself than it could be by those who were not so intimately associated with him in political matters. I join, first of all, with the Prime Minister in conveying to the widow and children whom the late Mr. Roberts has left behind him our sympathy and our appreciation of the great services he has rendered his State and the Commonwealth in his public capacity and otherwise. He was, as you know, Mr. Speaker, a man of singular intellectual ability, of a disposition strenuous and arduous. It is probable, as has been remarked before, that his desire to carry out his public duties faithfully contributed to and hastened his end. The Prime Minister seemed to indicate in his utterances that there is a fatality attaching to our meeting in this place. 3665 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - No, I did not intend to suggest that. 3665 F4N 0 0 FISHER, Andrew Mr FISHER - I think there is. I have stated on previous occasions that, in my opinion, this chamber and this building are not healthy places. These are occasions upon which we do not desire to enter upon any controversial matters, but it is our bounden duty to look after those who live, seeing that .we cannot help the dead back to life. I trust that, as my late colleague is no longer with us, the widow and children will be comforted by those Powers who are unseen, but by whom many are comforted and consoled in the hour of trial and suffering. Apart from that consolation, I feel sure that the widow, children, relatives, and friends of the late Mr. E. A. Roberts will be consoled by the feeling that his public services have done something to add to the comfort of others, since, according to his lights, he lost no opportunity in his public capacity to help his fellow man. I join with the Prime Minister in the statement that, while it is yet our privilege to render some public service, we should not delay in giving the best that we have. I can only add, at a time like this, that if these visitations are likely to be as frequent as they have been, few of the original members of the Federal Parliament will be here in the course of a very few years. The mortality amongst them has undoubtedly been very great, and I hope that we have seen the last of these tragic endings to the lives of representatives of the people in this Parliament. I may be allowed, on behalf of those on this side of the chamber, who were nearly associated with the late Mr. Roberts, to express my appreciation of the kind remarks of the Prime Minister, and the many similar remarks expressed privately by honorable members on the other side. 1 concur in the motion submitted by the Prime Minister expressing our appreciation of the services which the late honorable member for Adelaide rendered his country, and I again express the hope that those near and dear to him will be comforted in this the day of their trial and loss. Question resolved in the affirmative, honorable members standing in their places. Motion (by Mr. Joseph COOK) agreed to- That Mr. Speaker be requested to transmit the foregoing resolution and a copy of the addresses delivered thereon to Mrs. Roberts. 3665 special adjournment Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) agreed to- That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Thursday next, at 10.30 a.m. House adjourned at 6.5 p.m.