1915-09-10 6 1 0 REPS 6907 0 House of Representatives. 1915-09-10 Mr. Speaker took the chair at 12 noon, and read prayers: 6907 Questions 6907 6907 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - In view of the action taken by the war authorities of Great Britain and of the allied nations to discourage indulgence in alcoholic beverages, will the Minister for the Navy reconsider the determination to provide such beverages in connexion with the launching of the cruiser Brisbane, and will he give the instruction that no such beverages shall be made available then? 6907 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - It is not my intention to reconsider the decision. 6907 K8L 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Mr THOMAS - As the Right Honorable Lloyd George, the British Minister for Munitions, has stated that the drink evil is one of the enemies against which the Empire is fighting, will the Attorney-General, if the Minister for the Navy provides intoxicating liquors for consumption at the launching of the Brisbane, intern him for dealing with the enemy? 6907 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I promised last night that no British-born subject would be interned without the consent of the Cabinet. 6907 6907 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Has the Minister representing the Minister of Defence seen in the Tasmanian press articles recommending Beaconsfield , Tasmania, as a site for a munitions factory; and, if so, have steps been taken by the Government to establish a munitions factory there? 6907 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I have read the letter in the press, but I do not know that steps have been taken by, the Government to avail themselves of the buildings and works at Beaconsfield; 6907 6907 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - I have received complaints regarding the filling of positions on the medical staff of the Western Australian Expeditionary Force with doctors from the Eastern States, and have been informed that opportunity was not given to the medical men of Western Australia to fill these positions. Will the Minister for the Navy, in making the inquiry that he promised yesterday regarding a similar complaint concerning the appointment of military officers, endeavour to ascertain whether the statements to which I now draw attention are correct; and, if so, why Western Australian medical men are not being permitted to join the Expeditionary Force of the State? 6908 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I shall bo glad to comply with the honorable member's request. 6908 6908 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - I ask the Postmaster-General what is the cause of the delay in putting on the table, for the discussion of the House, the regulation authorizing an increase in the telephone charges ? 6908 KUF ALP 1 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The regulation has not yet been passed by the Executive. 6908 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - Is it the intention of the honorable gentleman to increase the telephone rates before the House re-assembles in October? 6908 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - When the regulation comes into force it will apply immediately to new subscribers; but those who have paid rent for their telephones will receive three months' notice of the intention of the Department to increase the rates, and there will be no collection from them at the higher rate until this notice has expired. 6908 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - Are the new rates to apply only to new subscribers, and will the regulation which authorizes them come into force before the House meets again in October? 6908 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - I anticipate that the regulation will be published next week. The new rates will at once apply to new subscribers, but existing subscribers will receive three months' notice of the increase in charges, though we are not obliged to give them more than one month's notice. . 6908 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD - As it is intended to increase the telephone rates, and subscribers are very dissatisfied with the present mode of rendering accounts, it being impossible to check them, or to be sure that they are reasonably accurate, will the Postmaster-General say whether the Department is doing anything to introduce a better system of keeping the telephone call accounts? 6908 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The Department claims that its system of recording calls is absolutely accurate, and it is for subscribers to show that it is not. We have tested a great many complaints, and the complainants have always been forced to admit, when the facts were brought before them, that they had made errors. 6908 Absence of Flags From Parliament House 6908 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I ask you, Mr. Speaker, why, although every other public building in Melbourne is decorated with bunting this morning, in honour of the return of sick and wounded soldiers, this building is without flags? 6908 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The staff of the building were in attendance until the early hours of the morning, and that perhaps is the reason of the oversight. I understand that our flags are now flying. 6908 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - They were not being flown when the procession was passing through the city. 6908 Provision of Hot Meals 6908 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY - As mess-rooms in which workmen can obtain hot meals are provided at most of the British naval dockyards, will the Minister for the Navy take into consideration the desirability of making similar provision on Cockatoo Island ? 6908 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The honorable gentleman made the suggestion to me a few weeks ago, and, having considered it with the manager of the Fitzroy Dock, I have decided to do what he asks. 6908 6908 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - In view of the additional information with which I supplied the Minister for the Navy yesterday in regard to canteen arrangements at Gallipoli, can the honorable gentleman tell the House exactly what is being done there?. 6908 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - There has been no time to look into the matter. The Minister of Defence and myself have been too much occupied. 6908 6908 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I wish to know from the Minister for the Navy what provision is made for the support of the families of naturalized persons of enemy origin "who cannot get work because of the disinclination of other citizens to work with them, or to give them work ? 6909 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I am not aware that any provision is being made for their support. 6909 6909 L1P 0 0 WISE, George Mr WISE - A day or two ago the Minister for the Navy stated that the Defence Department issues the certificates of death required by life insurance societies in connexion with policy claims, but as such certificates are not issued in respect of soldiers dying in Victoria, will the Government undertake to pay the fee - 10s. 6d. - which is charged by the doctors who give them ? 6909 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I quite see the justice of the request, and shall bring the matter under the notice of the Minister of Defence, so that effect may be given to it. 6909 6909 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The regulations issued under the War Precautions Act - Statutory rules 1915, No. 130 - contain the following provisions: - 3. (2) Nothing in these Regulations shall be construed as affecting the right to trial by a civil court of persons, other than alien enemies or persons subject to the Naval Discipline Act, or to military law, for offences against the Act. 54. (1) Any person authorized for the purpose by the competent naval or military authority, or any police constable, or officer of Customs, may arrest without warrant any person - whoso behaviour is of such a nature as to give reasonable grounds for suspecting that ho has acted, or is acting, or is about to act, in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the Commonwealth. These regulations take away the right of appeal that existed before. Will the Attorney-General look into them and see that the right of appeal when an arrest takes place under section 54 is restored ? 6909 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member has put a question involving a great many matters of fundamental importance, and I am quite unable to deal with them by way of a reply to his question; but I refer the honorable member to a statement I made at the last sitting, to the effect that no British-born subject arrested under the warrant of the Minister can remain interned unless Cabinet so approves. With regard to the question of offences against the Act, I shall see whether there is anything in the regulations which deprives a British-born subject of that right to a. civil trial which was presumed to be safeguarded under regulation 3. 6909 6909 JLY 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY - Has the Minister for the Navy any answer to the statement made in the chamber yesterday by the honorable member for Melbourne? 6909 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - Yes; but the Attorney-General wishes to make a statement in regard to it. 6909 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I wish to make a statement in regard to the matter. Leave given. 6909 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I have seen the Minister of Defence, and discussed this case with him. He told me that it was not true that he had given an order at any time to arrest this man Perry, and that it was not true that he had been arrested. The Minister said that the Military Board had considered the case, and Had expressed the opinion that he was not suffering from paralysis, but from hysteria, and they had ordered him into hospital for further treatment. As far as I can gather from what the Minister has told me, it was not contended that the man was not ill. 6909 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Was an armed guard sent to take him to the hospital? 6909 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - No. Members of the Army Medical Corps, who are never armed, were sent to convey him to the hospital. According to the Minister, they asked the landlady where Perry was, and she said that he was not at home. Thereupon the Army Medical men went away. That is the statement of the Minister of Defence. I understand that the Minister for the Navy has been furnished with a report by the Department, which perhaps honorable members will permit him to read. Leave given. 6909 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - In compliance with the promise made yesterday, that I would get a statement from the Minister of Defence concerning this case, and make it available to the House, I submit the following report which has been furnished to me: - Gunner Perry. Dr. Maloney's statements summarized con tain the following charges: - That after the Minister had promised Dr. Maloney that Perry would not be arrested after desertion, an attempt was made to arrest him. That Dr. Maloney sent Mrs. Perry to the Minister, and that she was told that the Minister could not see her. That the promise made that every soldier invalided home would receive pay, board, and medical attendance had not been kept. In regard to (1), when Perry had deserted from the hospital, and was therefore liable to arrest, Dr. Maloney, on the 14th June, wrote to the Minister, asking that " no arrest be made of this poor injured man for leaving the hospital without leave." On this representation, and after looking over the file, the Minister gave instructions that Perry was not to be arrested; but, as Perry had deserted, and was not arrested, he, therefore, by his own action, became automatically discharged, and pay therefore ceased. On Friday, the 3rd September, 1915, Dr. Maloney wrote to the Minister, pointing out that Mrs. Perry " is getting desperate with her injured husband, and no allowance whatever," and "that it would be a charity if something definite is decided, for if this poor fellow is to get nothing, I must start a public subscription." It may be added that this letter ends with this paragraph - " With all greetings re your plucky act, and good luck." 6910 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - That was in reference to the occasion on which he went up in an aeroplane, which was a plucky act. 6910 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - Apparently, it was a compliment to the Minister. The departmental report continues - The Minister at once gave instructions that a Medical Board was to at once assemble, to investigate the case, and report, as soon as possible, what further action should be taken. This was on Monday, the 6th. On the 7th the Board assembled, consisting of - Colonel (Dr.) Cuscaden, P.M.O., President. Major (Dr) Wilkinson, Major (Dr.) W. R. Bird, Their report was (7/9/15) - " We cannot find any evidence of definite organic nerve disease in this man. We are of opinion that the whole disability is hysterical, and that he requires, and should have, treatment in a suitable hospital, under medical supervision." On the 8th instant an ambulance was sent to bring Perry to hospital. On arrival at his house, the ambulance waited for twenty minutes, and were told by a lady that he was not there. The bald facts of the case are that this man broke hospital. He was not arrested, as I had issued definite instructions that this was not to be done. The Board sat on his case, returned a finding that he should have further treatment; an ambulance went to bring him along, and was told he was not there. When the Minister was informed that Mrs. Perry wished to see him, he at once saw her, took down a statement of her case, and gave instructions that inquiries were to be made at once what money was due to her, and that any money that was due to her was to be paid. The Finance Member reports that all arrears have now been paid. By his own action in deserting and his non-arrest at the request of Dr. Maloney, Perry ceased to have any claim on the Department, as obviously the Department cannot be responsible for a man who has passed beyond its control by his own act. It will, therefore, be seen that on the three charges made, the statements made by Dr. Maloney are not sustained. The following is a copy of the statement by the driver of the ambulance: - Statement by Driver of Ambulance which went for Gunner Perry. As instructed, with Driver Byers, I went to the house of Gunner Perry, in Walsh-street, West Melbourne, on the evening of the 8th inst., to convey patient to the Base Hospital.. On inquiry at the house for Gunner Perry, the lady who answered said she would see. After waiting some time, about half -an -hour, she returned to the door, said he was not in, and that he may have gone to a friend's place at St. Kilda. I asked for the friend's address, and she said she had no idea where it was. I went to the nearest station, and rang up the hospital for further instructions, and was instructed to come back. There were only the two of us on the ambulance. We were unarmed. (Sd.) Alfred Edward Skinner, 10th September, 1915. Secretary for Defence. Herewith statement of Driver Alfred Edward Skinner, ambulance, re call to take Gunner Perry to Base Hospital. (Sd) R. E. Williams, Colonel, A/Comraandant, 3rd M.D. 6910 6910 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD - Can the Minister for the Navy explain why orders have been issued that all transports must be provisioned in Sydney, even when they take their departure from Melbourne ? Will he take steps to see that there is a fair distribution of the provisioning of these transports between the two cities? 6910 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I am the Minister controlling transports, and I have not issued any such order. 6910 6910 KRN 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR - Can the Postmaster-General say whether any settlement has been arrived at between the Postal Department and the Sorters Union with regard to the efficiency barrier test? 6910 KUF ALP 1 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - We have had no communication from the executive of the union in reply to letters sent to them; and I have not heard of any dissatisfaction having been expressed. 6911 KMM 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD - Owing to the great disorganization of country mail services in Victoria through the reduction of passenger trains, will the Postal Department arrange for the continuance of a daily service to the principal country towns, where they have had them for years past, whether the mails have to be carried by trolleys or by road vehicles, or on horseback ? I do not think that expense should be considered in this matter. 6911 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - The Department is doing its best to arrange with the railway authorities to carry mails where goods trains run daily, or where the people are agreeable to get their mails by trolley service. Though the passenger train service is reduced, the Post Office still has to pay the same for the carriage of the mails, and it is only fair that where goods trains are run the Railway Department should carry mails on them. I do not think that it is a reasonable request that the Postal Department should be asked to run a vehicular service alongside a railway line. 6911 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Do the State Railway Departments make a proportionate reduction in their charges to the Postal Department when the train service is curtailed ? 6911 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - No reduction of charges is made. The Postal Department has to pay the Railway Department the same amount if a train runs only once a week instead of daily. 6911 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - Does the arrangement with the various Railway Departments provide for a schedule specifying the services to be rendered on each line, or is a lump sum paid by the Postal Department? Can no reduction be made where the train service is being curtailed, in some cases over 50 per cent. ? 6911 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - There is no reduction. The arrangement is altogether one-sided, and against the Postal Department. The railway authorities carry parcels at much lower rates than those charged to the Department. They carry newspaper parcels for1s. per hundredweight, irrespective of distance, but they charge the Postal Department per mile. In New South Wales newspaper parcels are carried by the Railway Department at half pre-paid parcel rates, and, if carried at owner's risk, at a quarter of those rates. The agreement is most unreasonable, and it must be altered next year. 6911 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Will the Minister open up negotiations with the State Governments with a view to the substitution of a motor service, or some other form of transport, in order that the mail contract may be carried out in districts where the train service has been reduced. 6911 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - We have been in communication with the State Governments, and the Premier of Queensland has agreed to assist the Postal Department. With regard to the others we must abide by the legal agreements with the Railway Commissioners until they can be terminated. 6911 KXP 0 0 PALMER, Albert Mr PALMER - Does the contract with the Railway Department contain any provision for cancellation ? If so, what is the earliest date at which the agreement can be terminated ? 6911 KUF 0 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - Twelve months' notice is required. 6911 Postal Service at Seymour Camp : Transfer of Recruits : Belated Report of Casualty Committee of Inspection for Camps 6911 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON - Complaint has been made to me of the nondelivery of correspondence and parcels addressed to soldiers in the Seymour Camp, and also of the non-receipt of letters and telegrams sent by soldiers at the camp to their relatives. Will the Postmaster-General explain whether the postal service in the camp is conducted by an officer of the Postal Department, and whether some means cannot be devised to have the correspondence and parcels to soldiers regularly delivered ? 6911 KUF ALP 1 0 SPENCE, William Mr SPENCE - I shall have inquiries made, and I shall be glad if the honorable member will give me particulars of any specific cases. 6911 L77 0 0 HAMPSON, Alfred Mr HAMPSON - I have a request from 348 recruits from the Bendigo district who are being trained in the metropolitan area that they be transferred back to Bendigo and trained at the Epsom Camp. Will the Minister for the Navy urge the Minister of Defence to facilitate that transfer, as was promised some time ago? 6911 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I shall bring the honorable member's question under the notice of the Minister. 6911 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Will the Minister for the Navy have searching inquiry made into the circumstances surrounding the notification of the death of Private Arthur Barnes, No. 681, 1st Battalion, 1st Infantry Brigade, A.I.E.F. The relatives received private advice of his death, and three times they asked the Department for particulars. They were assured that he was alive, but, eventually, four mouths after his death, they received notification from the Department that Private Barnes had been killed on the day of the landing at Gallipoli, 25th April? 6912 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I will have inquiry made. 6912 KW8 0 0 THOMSON, John Mr JOHN THOMSON - About a fortnight ago I asked the Minister for the Navy whether, in view of the damaging report submitted by Mr. Justice Rich, in regard to the Liverpool Camp, and the constant complaints about other . camps in the Commonwealth, he would ask the Minister of Defence to consider the advisability of appointing a Committee of two to inspect all camps. I suggested that the honorable member for Maranoa should be appointed from the Government side, and another member from the Opposition side. Has that suggestion been considered ? 6912 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The suggestion has received consideration, and I believe that the Minister of Defence is about to announce the appointment of some persons to constitute such a Committee. 6912 6912 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - In view of the report from the Home land, that a million badges have been sold bearing the words, " I will not buy German goods," will the Acting Prime Minister ask the House to carry, with as little debate as possible, the following motion, "We pledge ourselves on our honour not to consciously buy any German goods" ? 6912 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - For my own part, I am willing to take that oath now. But to ask the House to carry any proposal without, debate is, I am afraid, a counsel of perfection. The motto suggested is an excellent one to follow, and as individuals we can all follow it, and thus set an example to others. 6912 6912 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - As the suitability qf Beaconsfield, Tasmania, as a site for a munition factory must be well known to the Minister for the Navy, will he suggest immediately to the Minister of Defence that inquiries be made with a view to the establishment of a factory there? 6912 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I have received a good deal of correspondence from Tasmanian citizens on that subject, and I have referred it to the War Munitions Committee, who have the whole control of munition questions. 6912 K5D 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - When making any suggestion in regard to the establishment of small arms or munitions factories in Tasmania, will the Minister for the Navy include Burnie, the gate of Darwin, and the finest harbour in Australia? 6912 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I think that the town of Burnie and the electorate of Darwin are well known to the Committee. 6912 6912 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - A number of mining companies which are raising copper ore in the North-west of Western Australia . have been sending that ore to Great Britain for treatment. When the proposed metal exchange is formed, will it be necessary for all sales to be made through the Exchange ? 6912 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Nothing is necessary at present in regard to the sales of metals except registration, which amounts to merely posting to the Attorney-General a notification of the transaction. I do not think that will interfere with the companies at all. When the Exchange is established, and other conditions have to be observed, I shall be glad to obtain from the honorable member particulars of 'any mines or circumstances in Western Australia which the Exchange is likely to affect seriously, and I shall be ready to make any provision for Western Australia that is compatible with the interests of the industry and our present circumstances. 6912 6912 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - A promise having been made recently to a deputation that action in connexion with the naval subbase at Port Stephens would be expedited, will the Minister state the present position in regard to that project? 6912 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The work is proceeding as fast as possible under the circumstances. Recently foremen and other workers were sent to Port Stephens with a view to commencing preliminary works. 6912 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - Will the Minister inform the House whether there is any likelihood of a serious attempt being made to commence work at the naval sub-base at Port Lincoln ? 6913 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I will answer the honorable member quite plainly by saying that no preparation is being made for commencing any works in connexion with the proposed base at Port Lincoln. 6913 6913 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - I desire to ask the Attorney-General whether he will cause to be set out in the list which is being circulated at post-offices to prevent the carriage of newspapers advertising enemy goods, not only the names of the firms which are tabulated, but also the goods themselves, which are obviously of the most importance. If this be not done, the firms will change their names, and the goods will still be advertised. I wish, further, to ask whether in this list the Attorney-General will include the goods of enemy origin and enemy benefit operated in Sydney by Messrs. George Arnold and Company, and Messrs. J. Blau and Company ? 6913 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The scope of this embargo is necessarily limited. It has relation to those articles which depend for their sale upon extensive advertising. It cannot be effective in regard to drugs, which do not depend upon advertising for their sale. Sanatogen, to take a striking case, depends almost entirely upon advertising. I say nothing of its virtues, for I know nothing of them. If we prevent the advertising of such an article, we, in effect, prevent its sale. I do not know that I can extend the list to the goods operated by Messrs George Arnold and Company. I do not know them. I think that Messrs. J. Blau and Company advertise a preparation called Laxatine. It is proposed to add that to the list, as it falls into the same class. They do not advertise "4711," so that it could not be included. It relates to a question of importation, which is in a quite different class. If the honorable member will supply me with a list of the preparations sold by George Arnold and Company, I will see that if they are of this particular class they are added to the list. 6913 6913 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - In the absence of the Prime Minister, I desire to ask the Attorney-General whether, in view of the complete system of audit of accounts for the Red Cross collections made in a large factory in Melbourne, in which the workers subscribe amounts approaching £100 a week, the Premiers of the States will be requested to immediately appoint honorary committees to supervise and control all war collections, so insuring to the public of Australia that their loyal and patriotic gifts will be used for the benefit of our fighting soldiers at the front. 6913 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I shall bring this matter before the Prime Minister, with a view to his discussing it with the Premiers at the forthcoming Conference. 6913 6913 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that, as our time is very limited, we should decide to allow the answers to the twenty-seven questions on the notice paper to be forwarded to the honorable members asking them, and so render it unnecessary to have them put and replied to here. 6913 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Is it the pleasure of the House that that course be adopted? Honorable Members. - Hear, hear! 6913 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Then it is to be clearly understood that the questions on notice are not to be asked to-day, but that the replies to them are to be handed to Hansard for publication. Honorable Members. - Hear, hear! 6913 Invalided Soldiers - Imperial Reservists - Troopship : Length of Voyage - Canteens - Antecedents of Captain Blaubaum - Captain Sabiet - Censored Letters - Army Medical Corps : Allocation of Duties - Liverpool Camp : Strictures of Dr. Long - Mont Park Military Hospital - Vaccination - Fitting out of Troopships. 6913 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Will he request the Minister for Defence to arrange that the two unfortunate men, brought under the notice of the House through the Herald newspaper and the member for Melbourne, should receive the money, viz., 6s. a day, stated repeatedly in this House as being paid to every wounded or invalided soldier returned to Australia? 6913 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answer to the honorable member's question is - All invalided soldiers are kept on the pay roll until either discharged from the Force cured or for pension. One shilling of the 6s. per day payable to a soldier is deferred until the man is discharged from the Force. This applies to all cases. 6914 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - What are the rates of pay and of separation allowances made respectively to privates in the Australian Imperial and British Imperial Forces? What amount is paid by the Australian Government to Imperial reservists (privates), residents of Australia, who have been summoned to the front? Are any deductions made from any such payments in the case of married reservists whose wives receive separation allowances from the Imperial Government? 6914 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - The rate of pay of a private in the Australian Imperial Force is 5s. per diem before embarkation, and 6s. per diem after embarkation, of which1s. is deferred. Separation allowance for the following dependants of members of the Australian Imperial Force is payable both before and after embarkation at the rates stated: - For wife,1s. 5d. per diem. For each child under sixteen years of age, 4d. per diem, For mother of whom the member is the sole support,1s. 5d. per diem. Provided that payment of separation allowance shall in no case be made beyond an amount which, together with the member's pay (including after embarkation, deferred pay) will exceed 8s. per diem. The rate of pay of a private of the Infantry of the Line in the Imperial Army is1s. per diem, but other arms vary slightly. The rates of separation allowance payable to a private in the Imperial Army are - For wife only, 9s. per week. For wife and one child, 14s. per week. For wife and two children, 17s. 6d. per week. For each additional child, 2s. per week. The Commonwealth Government pays on account of reservists returning to the colours, other than commissioned officers, the difference between the British Army rates of their rank and the Australian Imperial Force rate of pay of a similar rank, and the difference between Imperial and Australian rates of separation allowance. Such difference of pay and separation allowance, however, is paid, not to reservists personally, but to - Wives and families now resident in Australia and remaining in Australia. Relatives residing in Australia who are dependent upon a single man - reservist. Single men without dependants in Australia will receive the difference between British Army rates and Australian Imperial Force rates on return to Australia. From (2) it will be seen that payment is made by the Commonwealth Government of the difference between the Imperial and Australian rates of pay and separation allowance, so that in the case of a married reservist both pay and separation allowance are taken into account in ascertaining the amount payable. 6914 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - What time elapsed from the date of sailing of the last troopship with wounded soldiers from the port of embarkation in Egypt to its arrival in Melbourne? 6914 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - A troopship which left Suez on the 15th August arrived at Melbourne yesterday. 6914 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Whether it is a fact that, though no intoxicating liquors are allowed in the canteens of the Australian Imperial Forces while in Australia and during transit to Europe, as soon as control passes to the Imperial authorities this prohibition is withdrawn? Is it a fact that not only are such liquors available in the military camps in Europe, but that a rum ration is served to the troops in the trenches? Is it correct that a similar reversal of local conditions occurred in the case of the Canadian troops ? Will the Minister make representations in the proper quarter that this conflict of methods is not satisfactory to Australia, and will he join with Canada in offering a strong protest to the Imperial authorities against their continuance of these practices? 6914 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - No information is available. Yes, this is understood to be so. A ration of rum is issued at the discretion of the General Officer Commanding on the recommendation of the medical officer. Nothing is known concerning the matter. The Minister does not consider it advisable to make representations on this matter. 6914 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - In view of the inquiries made by the Government into the parentage and antecedents of Captain J. Blaubaum, A.M.C., will the Minister lay the particulars on the table of the Library ? Is it a fact that Captain T. H. Sabiet has left with the Forces for the front? 6914 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Information is not yet to hand; the request will be considered. Yes. 6914 KXN 0 0 OZANNE, Alfred Mr OZANNE asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - In censoring letters written from the front, has the censor the power to confiscate pages of such letters without intimation that such has been done? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The censor has this power if there arise military reasons for exercising it. Letters from the front are censored by the field censor, and it is not the practice to censor here those which the field censor has passed. 6915 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is seniority in the Australian Army Medical Corps permitted to outweigh private professional experience and attainments in the allocation of duties in connexion with Australian wounded at the front and in Egypt? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The principle in the selection of medical officers for active service is to give preference to those who have given up their time during peace, to learn military training. Exceptions to this, however, were made when hospitals on lines of communication were being raised, and positions were given to seniors, both medical, surgical, and specialists, without considering military experience. 6915 K99 0 0 JOHNSON, Elliot Mr W ELLIOTT JOHNSON asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Whether he has read the strictures of Dr. Long, Anglican Bishop of Bathurst, published in the press, on the site of the Liverpool Camp, as a result of a visit extending over ten days? Whether, in view of the Bishop's statement that "After one has been all over the ground one wonders why this should have been chosen as the site of a great camp. It has nine reasons to condemn it for every one to recommend it," coming so soon on top of the Commission's recent adverse report, it is still the intention of the Government to retain this site as a training camp for the troops? Have any other areas been offered to the Government, and, if so, what is the reason for not taking steps to secure a more suitable location for the Camp? Are there not more suitable locations for a camp site within what is known as " Liverpool Resumption Area," including a place known as " Green Hills," and, if so, have any steps been taken to obtain expert reports concerning such sites? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The whole question of the Liverpool Camp site is at present receiving the Minister's personal attention. It is noted that Mr. Justice Rich had no fault to find with the site. 6915 JWY 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Referring to questions previously asked of him concerning the alleged wasteful destruction of large quantities of carcasses of both beef and mutton at the Mont Park Military Hospital, has any inquiry been made into these allegations; if so, will he state the result of such inquiry? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - This matter is being inquired into at present, and as soon as information is available the honorable member will be informed. 6915 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is it the practice of the Defence Department to compel soldiers going to the front to be inoculated with the germs of cow-pox and other diseases as a so-called preventive against small-pox and typhoid fever? Is it not a fact that inoculation or vaccination is not compulsory in the Department of Defence of the United Kingdom? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - The Department does arrange for vaccination of troops against typhoid and small-pox, and men are not enlisted unless they agree to this being done. It is understood that vaccination and inoculation, although strongly urged, are not compulsory with the English troops. In many cases, however, men are refused enlistment unless they agree to inoculation. ' 6915 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - What were the complete terms of the Department's first contract made with Messrs. Cone and Company, Port Melbourne, in January or February, for fitting out troopships? What are the terms of the new agreement? Was this new agreement made retrospective, and, if so, for what reason? Will the Minister lay upon the table, today, all the papers connected with the- Auditor-General's inquiry into certain allegations with reference to the carrying out of Messrs. Cone's first contract? 6915 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Messrs. Cone and Company were to receive 10 per cent, on cost of labour and material, preference to be given to unionists. The full text of the agreement will be made available. It was deemed advisable to revise the original agreement, making it more explicit, and adding new conditions, whereby the Department is having its work carried out at less cost, and it was made retrospective. The papers mentioned will be made available for the information of any honorable members desiring to sec them. 6915 Financial and Allow rANCE Regulation - Agistment of Horses - Naturalized Enemy Subject: Permit - Colonel Hall. 6915 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - With reference to Statutory Rule No. 61 of 1915 amending Financial and Allowance Regulation 64, and granting the maximum pay of their substantive rank to officers holding temporary rank after six months' service in that temporary rank, is it a fact that the increased rate has only been paid to officers so situated from 5th May, 1915, although due to them for periods much before that? If the officers in question have fulfilled the necessary conditions of appointment and service, are they not justly entitled to the increased rate after six months' service in the temporary rank? In view of the facts of the case, will the Minister direct that the increased rate, viz., £350 per annum, be paid from the time when these officers completed six months' service in their temporary rank? 6916 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Yes. No provision existed prior to the date named. No; the amendment to the regulation is not retrospective. No. 6916 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Who made the arrangements for the agistment of horses on Ghin Ghin Estate, Yea? What is the price per head per week that is being paid for them? 6916 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - The Director of Remounts, on the recommendation of Major F. G. Purcell. Two and sixpence per head per week. 6916 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is the Minister aware that a naturalized enemy subject working on a wharf at Woolloomooloo Bay, New South Wales, in terms of a permit granted in accordance with regulations issued by the Defence Department, which allows such persons to be on wharf, dock, or pier, was responsible for a strike there on 6th September ? Will the Minister consider the necessity of refusing to issue such permits in future? 6916 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - No information has been received of any such occurrence. Inquiry will be made. Permits are only issued after stringent inquiry, and are withdrawn if there is any ground for suspicion. It is not thought that an absolute prohibition of all naturalized subjects of enemy origin would be justified. 6916 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is Colonel Hall, who is described in the official list of censors supplied to Parliament as a " journalist," a member of the Australian Journalists Association, which is an organization of employees registered under the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act; and, if not, why is the Minister for Defence employing a non-unionist? 6916 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - No. He is employed as a military officer, and the principle of preference is not applied in such appointments. 6916 6916 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice - Is it proposed to allow naturalized Germans, Austrians, and Turks to vote at the Referenda? 6916 JM8 ALP 1 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr ARCHIBALD - Natural-born and naturalized British subjects enrolled as electors have the same voting rights under the law. 6916 6916 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice - What was the date of the first case of cerebrospinal meningitis reported, and was it reported to the authorities? What was the date of the first telegram for Flexner's serum for this dread disease? In view of the extraordinary precautions taken when one suspicious case of small-pox was discovered in Melbourne during the epidemic in Sydney when barriers were put up that practically isolated Sydney, and in view of the fact that the mortality of that smallpox epidemic was under 1 per cent., whereas with the best results we can hope for in cerebro-spinal meningitis 60 per cent, of deaths occur, what does the Government intend to do in the way of quarantine or other precautions to prevent the spread of a disease which is recognized by the highest authorities as the most terrible and deadly disease of modern civilization? 6916 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - The date of first military case was 27th May, 1015. 20th July, 1915. A supply of the serum was available locally at the outbreak of the epidemic, and when it was found that this was likely to be exhausted a further supply was cabled for, and will be here in the course of a few days. The measures of isolation and disinfection which have been applied have been adopted on the recommendations drawn up by a conference of all the authorities concerned. 6916 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Will he inform the House as to the number of cases of cerebro-spinal meningitis and the number of deaths recorded to date from the first outbreak in a camp? Is it not a fact that the contagion and infection of cerebro-spinal meningitis is more easily spread than small-pox? 6916 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - I am informed by the Defence Department that since the first outbreak of cerebrospinal meningitis in a camp there have been 110 cases of the disease with forty-four deaths. This refers to military camps and hospitals only. No official information is available as to the number of cases and deaths amongst civilians. Expert medical opinion is that such is not the case. 6917 6917 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Whether the rifles issued to rifle clubs - many of such rifles having become the private property of members - have been called in in all the States; if so, will these rifles be returned before the conclusion of the war? If it is correct that all rifles have been called in, will the Minister consider the advisableness of issuing a limited number of rifles to each club, to permit of shooting practice being continued? 6917 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I have been supplied with answers to the honorable member's questions, but they are of a confidential nature. I shall be pleased to show them to him privately. 6917 6917 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - Recently the honorable member for Wentworth asked me the following question: - Will the Minister for the Navy have inquiries made into the statement appearing in the Argus this morning in regard to news matter not directly referring to the war that the censor on three occasions forbade publication of news in the Argus which was allowed to appear in the Age? Will the Minister inform the House to-morrow whether that statement is a fact? I promised to have inquiries made, and have received the following official statement : - In connexion with a statement appearing in the Argus that on three occasions matter not referring directly to the war was forbidden to the Argus and allowed to appear in the Age; so far as the censor is concerned, there can be no differentiation as to the press, nor any motive for it. Extreme care is taken to give all papers identical directions, issued at the same time, and any release by the censorship is conveyed to all. Previous to the honorable member's question, the matter had received attention, and the following are the facts in regard to the three cases to which it is presumed reference is made: - The censor, by direction of the Honorable the Minister, notified papers that the Prime Minister requested no reference be made to the arrangements for bringing the body of a distinguished officer to Australia until arrangements were officially released. The Argus scrupulously respected the request. The Age on the 2lst ult., without referring to the censor, published a notice of the funeral arrangements. The paper was called upon' for an explanation. The explanation given is considered to be satisfactory, as it did not disclose the so-called official source of the information. The Age on 27th ult. published, without submission to the censor, a description of the armament, &c., of the Torrens. The censor asked their authority for publishing such particulars without reference. The paper, in its explanation, said the information had been obtained from a source which would be regarded by the censorship as official. No notice was given to the Censor's Department of any official release, and it is against the rules of the censorship to disclose such matter unless sanctioned by proper official sources. The Argus refrained from publishing particulars of the armament, &c. Further inquiry is still pending as to the source of the release claimed by the Age, such release not having come from the censor. On the subject of the statement made as to changes in personnel in Medical Unit in Egypt, the matter was withheld by direction, but was mentioned in Parliament, and no objection would have been made to reports of any statement in the matter in Parliament, as parliamentary reports are not subject to censorship, except in the rare cases in which the Federal Government have given specific orders. 6917 6917 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is the Minister of Defence aware that the warrant officer artificers, Commonwealth Military Forces, have been debarred from appointment as inspector for shells in the Defence Department, on the plea that their services cannot be spared? Is the Minister aware that all these men were recommended by the Chief Inspector for Shell as qualified and competent to carry out the duties of inspectors of shell? Is it a fact that the responsible officer recommended that these men's services could be spared to go with the siege battery in a junior capacity to men whom they had trained ? If so, will the Minister ascertain what circumstance now exists which justifies the refusal to grant these men the preference conferred on them by the Defence Act, Part VI., section 63, sub-section 3? 6917 KK9 ALP 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Yes. The Chief Inspector of Shell stated that the artificers were' qualified to carry out the duties of what are now termed "viewers" during the manufacture of shell. In any case, they cannot be spared at the present time to carry out these duties. For the siege brigade there was one appointment only to be made. This was offered to one of the warrant officers who had previously volunteered; but as he made conditions as to rank and pay which could not be granted, he would not accept the position, which was subsequently given to a junior, who thereby received promotion to the rank allowed. The artificers cannot be spared. 6918 6918 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - Is the Minister aware that cau de Cologne is manufactured by distillation? Was he so aware when he granted Mr. Blau permission to visit America ostensibly to buy machinery for manufacture of the particular eau de Cologne sold by him? Did Mr. Blau explain to him the nature of the machinery necessary to manufacture, and why the same was not procurable in Australia; if so, what exactly was the machinery in question? Was the Minister aware that eau de Cologne was already being manufactured in Australia? Was he aware that Mr. Blau was a trader, not either manufacturer or chemist? Did Mr. Blau give him particulars of the capital that would be necessary to start the manufacture of his particular brand of eau de Cologne, how it was to be provided, what labour it would employ, and what profits it would yield? 6918 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - I am aware that distillation processes are used in the manufacture. Yes. Yes. I was not aware that it was being manufactured to any considerable extent. Yes. One of the reasons given by Mr. Blau for his wish to go to America was that he wished personally to engage a chemist. Yes. The capital was to be purely Australian. The amount of capital was stated, the number of persons to be employed, and a time when the manufacture would be commenced. 6918 6918 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - How many recommendations to prosecute for infringements of the Enemy Trading Act have reached him to date? In how many cases has it been decided to prosecute? How many prosecutions have been inaugurated, and how many dealt with? 6918 DQC ALP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member should move for this information in the form of a return. 6918 6918 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Is he aware that a shipment of laxatine was landed by Mr. Julius Blau after his recent visit to America? Is he aware that Mr. Blau used to import laxatine from Austria-Hungary which had the same trade mark on the label? Is he aware that the new consignment purported on the labels to have been made in England? Is he aware that pharmacists in Sydney were recently invited to exchange their old stocks of laxatine for new stocks, and that the new stocks bear labels with the enemy trade mark and the words, "made in England" printed thereon? Is he aware that one of his officers recently steamed off one of these " made in England " labels, and found the original enemy label underneath it? What steps does he propose to take to terminate this fraud on the public? 6918 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Inquiries are being made. 6918 Official Analyst: Mb. C. R. Churchward's Appointment - Position of Messrs. Harders and Willgerodt 6918 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Is it true that Mr. C. R. Churchward, who has recently been appointed as an official analyst, for the purpose of the Customs Act, has had no training in general analytical work ? Is it true that he failed twice at an examination at the Adelaide University to pass the first year in organic chemistry? Will the Minister state what are his qualifications for the position he has been appointed to? Will the Minister place on the table all the papers in connexion with this appointment, including the qualifications of all other applicants? 6918 KWL ALP 1 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - No. I am not aware. A course of study for some years at the Adelaide School of Mines, and several years' practical laboratory experience. No applications were called for. Mr. Churchward had been doing a considerable part of the Department's analytical work for several years. The range of his duties was widened, and he was formally gazetted as Customs Analyst. This was done on the recommendation of the Federal Analyst. 6918 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Will he lay upon the table of the House all papers connected with the appointment to and continuance in the Federal Service of Andreas Harders, and also of Heinrich Conrad Otto Willgerodt? 6918 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Papers in connexion with the appointment, in 1909, of Mr. Willgerodt to the Commonwealth Service will be placed on the table of the Library. Papers relating to the appointment of Mr. Harders, who is an Australian by birth, and has been in the Public Service for twenty-eight years, are not available. There are no papers relating to the continuance in the Service of either of the officers named, as no question affecting their continuance in the Service has arisen. 6919 papers The following paper was presented : - Panama Pacific Exposition, San Francisco - Correspondence between the Minister for Public Works, Victoria, and the Minister for External Affairs, in connexion with Australian representation at. Ordered to be printed. 6919 adjournment 6919 6919 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have received a letter from the honorable member for Melbourne, intimating that he desires to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, cases pertaining to the Base Hospitals and the Camps." Five honorable members having risen in their places, Question proposed. 6919 KLM Melbourne ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY .- The Minister of Defence seems to have been struck very forcibly by the statement that I " admired his pluck," which I made in my letter to him regarding the Perry case. My reference was to his plucky flight in an aeroplane, and if it has given offence to him, I can only say that he must be under a misapprehension. I think I can make out a clear case against Senator Pearce in regard to Gunner Perry. I was definitely promised that Perry would not be compelled to return to the Base Hospital. I did not ask for his discharge as a soldier. Can it be imagined that, had I done so, I would have repeatedly made both written and personal requests to the Minister for monetary assistance for him and his poor wife? 6919 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - In any case, if he was discharged, why did the authorities send for him ? 6919 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - That is a point that I was about to mention. Speaking on behalf of his colleagues, the Minister for the Navy in this House said, in reply to a question that I put, that Perry was being taken back to go before a Medical Board. The inaccuracy of that statement is shown by the answer supplied by the Minister of Defence himself, in which it is stated that the Board visited the man the night before the ambulance was sent for him. This then can be only an after-thought. I think honorable members will agree with me that the intention was to drag back the man to the Base Hospital. I repeat that accusation, and say that the promise made to me was broken, not by the special order of the Minister, but by officials under him. 6919 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Did Perry and his wife desire that he should continue to draw his pay? 6919 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Yes. 6919 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Then it was absolutely necessary that he should go before the doctor. 6919 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - He went before a doctor, and was tortured and tormented by him. Where is that doctor now? Is he still in the Base Hospital ? Coming now to the report that has been furnished, I desire to say that Colonel Cuscaden is a personal friend of mine, and that I have a great admiration for . him. If I were a woman about to become a mother he is one of the first medical men whom I would call in. As a matter of fact, he is a woman's doctor. Neither Colonel Fetherston nor Colonel Cusca'den have had that experience which alone should entitle a medical man to be at the head of our Army Medical Corps. A proposal to appoint a gynaecologist - a medical man skilled only in the treatment of the diseases of women - to the head of the Army Medical Corps in England would be scoffed at. Why was this medical man appointed to such a position here? Why should not the Department have availed itself of the services of some of the highest consulting surgeons to the Melbourne and Alfred Hospitals, the two great operating hospitals in Victoria ? According to a parliamentary book before me, among the consulting surgeons at the Melbourne Hospital are Dr. W. Moore, Colonel Ryan, and Dr. Stirling. Colonel Ryan is at the front ready and willing to fight ; Dr. Moore is here, and Dr. Stirling is in Melbourne, and is possibly the greatest surgeon on the Melbourne Hospital Staff at the present time. Then, again, among the surgeons attending in-patients are Dr. Fred. Bird, who is also away at the front, and is one of the four greatest surgeons practising in Victoria. I have nothing to say against Major Wilkinson, but I do not find his name in this list, nor do I find the nam© of Major W. R. Bird. Colonel Cuscaden's name is on the list of consulting surgeons, but he is a woman's doctor. For the first time in the history of any country, women doctors have been appointed to the head of the Army Medical Forces. 6920 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - I rise to a point of order, which I take in the interests of the honorable member who is speaking. Under the Standing Orders, if a motion shall not have been disposed of two hours after the time fixed for the meeting of the House, the debate thereon must be interrupted, unless the House otherwise orders. It is now nearly 1 p.m., and I should like this question to be settled now, so that we may know exactly whether the honorable member will be permitted to continue when we resume at 2.15. No one desires, I am sure, to limit the honorable member in his speech to-day. 6920 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I would remind the Leader of the Opposition that the House did not meet until 12 noon to-day, so that there will be ample time for me to consider the question raised by him. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m. 6920 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I desire to refer to the point of order raised a little while ago. This is a very exceptional case, such as has not come within my experience hitherto, nor, I think, within the experience of any other honorable member. One hour and a quarter has intervened, and, under the circumstances, I shall allow the debate to proceed for the usual time namely, until a quarter past three o'clock. 6920 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I do not wish to unduly labour the matter. The great point of difference between the Minister of Defence and myself is in regard to the promise that was made to me. I do not accuse the honorable gentleman of having caused the promise to be broken, but, owing to the action of his officials, it was not kept, as I think I shall clearly prove. When I learned of the torture that this man had undergone, and that medical men of repute in this city - one of them an exceptionally good surgeon - had declared that this man was not malingering, I took up the matter purely in my representative capacity as a member of Parliament, and at the request of certain of my constituents. Then I wrote to the Department and asked that this man should not be forced back to where he had been tortured. 6920 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - You did not ask for his discharge ? 6920 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - No ; absolutely no. 6920 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - And the Department took advantage of the circumstances to discharge him. 6920 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I believe that, technically, when a man deserts his pay stops from that time ; but surely one who is injured, and is being tortured, does not lose all the rights of a human being? If medical men of repute are willing to attend him, with or without fee, surely he should not lose those rights which the people are willing he should enjoy ! 6920 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Surely it is within the power of the authorities to give him leave of absence. 6920 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - The court-martial that was held gave a verdict in the man's favour; and that fact is not denied by the Minister. On Monday night two doctors, at least, attended the man, and remained with him for a considerable period; and when I went the following day he was again carefully examined - and I supervised the examination myself - by one of the most competent surgeons in Melbourne, who declared that undoubtedly it was not a case of malingering. The wife, shrewd woman as she was, said that previously there had not been applied what are really important tests in cases of this kind. I was astonished to learn from the discussion at the Trades Hall Council, that an armed guard of three had attended at the man's home; and it is quite possible that any man outside the military would regard three men in uniform as a guard. 6920 KGG 0 0 HANNAN, Joseph Mr Hannan - I think an average intelligent man can distinguish between Red Cross soldiers and an armed guard. 6920 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - At eleven o'clock at* night ? The statement was made that these men in uniform were sent to take this man before the Board, but we know that the Board had met the night before, so that explanation must fall to the ground. The real object was to take him back to the hospital, in spite of the promise that had been given to me. 6920 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Was it not at the request of the wife that it was sought to take him back to the hospital ? 6921 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - On the contrary, that has all along been the fear and dread of the wife. A great point has been made of the fact that the man was away when the uniformed men called, but that was ewing to the cleverness of the wife, who hid him when she saw the uniforms. The next day I had the man removed to a certain place until I could bring the matter before the House. In this, perhaps, ] broke the law, but I would do the same again and again under the circumstances. I did not know that representatives of the great Labour organization of Victoria had seen this man; but we may take it that, with their experience of persons trying to obtain trade union funds, they have some knowledge of what is and what is not malingering. This man has been a splendid footballer, he fought in South Africa, and has been to China, and I ask whether he is the sort of person to malinger when he could get work? 6921 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr Orchard - It is not said by the Department that he was malingering. 6921 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - It is said that he is suffering from hysteria. 6921 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - A woman's doctor is always apt to diagnose a case as one of hysteria. A tender spot in the spine is well defined, and the reflexes are exaggerated in a way that no mere malingerer could reproduce. This case should be investigated by an independent body consisting of the very highest surgeons in Melbourne, who have offered their services without fee or reward. I do not wish to wrong the Minister, and I cannot admit that he did not say I had asked for this man's discharge. I ask, however, why they should seek to take him back to the hospital if he discharged himself by his own act ? I have obtained the solemn promise, through the lips of Senator Russell, that this man will not be forced back to the hospital, and I know the promise will be kept; and on that I have had the man taken back to Iris home. I have been waited on by members of a ladies' organization, who informed me that these people are likely to be turned out to-morrow for the non-payment of rent. Attention is being given to this matter, and I wish honorable members to remember the refusal of this poor woman of any more pecuniary assistance from me. If something is not done for this family I shall appeal to the great-hearted public, to the trade unions and others and suggest that a committee be appointed to investigate the case. If I could only bring this man into the chamber, I am sure there is. not an honorable member who would say there was any sign of malingering. 6921 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Do you not desire to have an inquiry into the conduct of the doctor who is alleged to have tortured this man? 6921 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - What has to be decided is whether this man is or is not malingering. 6921 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Was not the decision of the court martial in his favour? 6921 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - The court martial, with Captain Cox Taylor in the chair, decided that he was not malingering. I am told that Dr. Meade has been removed from the hospital, and perhaps the most serious charge made against him last night was that he had forced this unfortunate wife to give up the certificates that her husband brought from Egypt. If that be so, the Minister should compel the doctor to produce the documents. It is a great pity that the Minister of Defence has not a seat in this House, for, if he had, it would be better for all concerned. I ask again why they should seek to take this man back, if he was discharged by his own a:ct? Why should I ask for money if I thought this man had been discharged from the Army ? Why should I appeal for assistance for these helpless people? Does a man lose all his rights, human and civil, when he joins the Forces? Let an independent Board make the necessary investigation, and not Army officers. Let the matter be left to surgeons from the greatest institutions in Melbourne - say the Melbourne Hospital and the Alfred Hospital - who, I understand, have offered their services free to the Department. I say, without fear of contradiction, that in no other country in the world are women doctors permitted to have control of such matters. It is not proposed, I suppose, to have maternity hospitals or other hospitals for diseases of women at the front? 6921 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Is it not a fact that a doctor. for such Army appointments, has to be a captain or a colonel, without much regard to his medical ability? 6921 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - What we require are surgeons who understand how to treat deadly wounds. 6922 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Take the case of Dr. Carty Salmon. 6922 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Dr. Carty Salmon has been appointed to an administrative position, and I know he is not one to say that he could operate in any way comparable to that of the well-known surgeons of our great hospitals. At present the honorary consulting surgeons at the Alfred Hospital are Dr. Cooke and Dr. O'Hara, and at the Melbourne Hospital, Dr. Moore, Colonel C. S. Ryan, and Dr. Stirling. Dr. Ryan is away at the front, but the others have, I understand, volunteered their services. I want now to speak on the subject of meningitis. According to this morning's newspapers Dr. Cuscaden has said that the situation gives no cause for alarm, that the military police have been isolated, merely as a precautionary measure, and that it was not expected that fresh cases would occur amongst the men quartered in Moore-street. The death rate amongst sufferers from this terrible disease is 80 per cent, where no serum is available. With the Flexner serum the death rate is brought down to 40 per cent., and the greatest American authority on the subject has stated that rarely does a recovery take place in a sufferer under two years of age. During the small-pox scare, when a supposed case occurred in Melbourne, Sydney was isolated. I speak under correction, but I think nobody actually died from the small-pox, and the chance of infection was considerably less than in the case of meningitis. I have been informed of one man who, after kissing his child in the evening, died in raving agony from meningitis, about 4 o'clock next day. That sort of thing does not occur with small-pox. Meningitis is 600 times more deadly, and I would ask what is being done in regard to it. If any one belonging to me were about to bring a little Australian into the world, I would have the greatest faith in the ability of Dr. Cuscaden. In that branch of medical science I do not think I can speak too highly of Dr. Cuscaden; but in regard to a matter of this kind, where meningitis is concerned, he is absolutely out of it. Reverting to the case of Gunner Perry, I want to ask the head of the Government, or the Minister acting in his place, to appoint a Committee that will be uninfluenced by military considerations, unaffected by what has been said, or by the fear of injuring any one in the medical profession, to deal with it. Let that Committee decide whether this man is a malingerer or not. If he is not, then let his wife and family have. some of the money that the people of Australia are pouring out so lavishly. If that is done my object will have been achieved. I understand that men eminent in the medical profession have offered their services free. They could settle the matter in an hour. I want to prevent this sort of thing occurring in the future at any- hospital, whether it is a Base Hospital or a hospital at any one of the various camps. I want now to refer to the appointment of Colonel Kirkland to the command of the Liverpool Camp. 6922 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. 6922 KNF Richmond LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE .- I desire to put it to the Minister, and to honorable members, in connexion with the case of Gunner Perry, particularly if his is a hysterical case, as has been suggested, that if he had been dealt with, sympathetically, he would have been given leave of absence, and allowed to mix amongst his own people. That would have done him more good than anything else. 6922 K5D ALP 0 0 O'MALLEY, King Mr KING O'MALLEY - That would have looked like business. 6922 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - I do not know whether it would or not, but it appears to me that that would have been a common-sense, way of dealing with a case like this. If the man's peculiar hysteria was that he was being tortured, the simplest way of dealing with him would have been to have permitted him to mix freely with his own people. If it is not a hysterical case, as the honorable member for Melbourne still maintains, but one of paralysis caused by injury to the spine, the man would have recovered much more quickly by being allowed to remain amongst his own people than in any other way. But the point I want to put before the Minister - and I want to put it before him very earnestly - is that, the time has now come when the Government should consider the basic organization of all the big military hospitals. At ' the outbreak of the war there were connected with the Military Department a number of medical officers carrying various titles, from General downwards, who had been attached to the Military Forces for a considerable time.: They had served in the various camps, and had gone through a course of training that fitted them for the military service required in the field. The medical organization, so far as it is concerned with field operations, should be conducted more or less strictly on military lines; but where base hospitals are concerned - where there "are a large number of wounded men who will be patients for a more or less protracted period - the basis of the organization no longer requires to be military in character. While I admit the necessity of putting a military officer into these hospitals to deal with the purely military side, I do not think it is essential that the officer should be a medical man. The same basis of organization is required at the base hospitals as at the great civil hospitals scattered throughout the country. If we were to put the Melbourne or the Sydney Hospital, or any other big hospital, under the control of, military officers, calling them Generals and Colonels and so on, everybody would think we had lost our senses, and similarly in the base hospitals, where the medical and nursing sides are of the most importance, military organization is not necessary. We have had from the medical men of this country a most generous offer to come to the assistance of the Government. The gentlemen who have made that offer do not require that they should be called Colonels or Captains. What they desire to do is to give the best services they can to their country in the interests of the men who have done so well by the country. 6923 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - But you cannot get that class of man appointed. 6923 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The whole trouble has been that these hospitals have been organized, first and last, purely on a military basis. In all military concerns control goes by seniority in the ranks. Honorable members may look through the lists of the Army Medical Corps in Australia, and they will find in them scarcely any of the country's prominent surgeons and doctors, with one or two very notable exceptions. The explanation is that these medical gentlemen have been unable to give their services to the country in the way they would have liked, on account of the calls of their private practices. The result is there are medical gentlemen in the Army Service Corps senior to men who, from the purely professional point of view, would take the higher rank. In connexion with most hospitals s> small paid staff is engaged, but the principal work is done by honorary medical men who are perfectly willing to do the same class of work at the base hospitals, and I suggest to the Government that that point should be very closely investigated by the War Committee, in order to discover whether it is ' not possible to reorganize the whole of the Army Service Corps on such lines as I have suggested. While I am dealing with this point, may I also refer to the position of the nursing staff. Before the outbreak of the war there were in Australia a number of ladies who had already joined the Army Nursing Service Corps. There was a principal matron, I understand, in each of the States. These matrons were ladies who had been very highly trained in the large hospitals of the country, and who had occupied positions of high responsibility. In hospital organization, and in making nursing arrangements generally, their opinions would have been of great value; but they were not called into consultation with the Army Medical Corps at all. That was unfortunate. I do not wish to say anything against the management and control of the Base Hospital in Melbourne, but even there there is room for improvement. Things have transpired which I do not wish to mention this afternoon, those in control not having had the necessary experience. The direction of a large hospital requires a highly trained brain and great practical experience, and the requisite knowledge cannot be obtained in a day. The Government have in their service ladies who are eminently capable of advising and assisting them. A few days ago they called these ladies to Melbourne to a conference, but I am informed, on very good authority, that the Principal Medical Officer contented himself with lecturing them on what he had done, and how he had organised the hospital, and then sent them home again. He did not ask them for their advice, although they had been brought from all over Australia. I hope that the statements that have been made here will be submitted for the investigation of the War Committee, and that the Committee will make it its business to ascertain whether the base hospitals are organized on righ't lines. I trust that the persons called in evidence will not be the military authorities, but persons who have had to do with the organization of large hospitals, and able to say what can best be done. 6924 JLY Bourke 0 0 ANSTEY, Frank Mr ANSTEY .- The statements of the honorable member for Melbourne regarding the treatment at the Base Hospital of a soldier named Perry, by Dr. Meade, should be fully investigated, and, if not substantiated, should be apologized for. When the Rabaul trouble was under discussion, Perry wrote to me from the Base Hospital, protesting against his treatment by Dr. Meade, and asked me to intervene; but I replied that my hands were too full, and advised him to apply to some one else. Although I did not move in the matter, I saw Perry, and found him to be in a miserable condition; a complete wreck. He walked with a stick, he could hardly speak, and was trembling and paralytic, and, although a young man, seemed seventy or eighty years of age. To say that he is not an absolute wreck would be untrue. He cannot stand erect, and he cannot speak properly. The case is a pitiable one. The authorities said that Perry was a malingerer; but when I wrote to Dr. Meade asking for a direct statement from him of the way in which he viewed the case, he merely replied that he had no answer to make, the matter having been dealt with. Perry would not stop in the hospital, and escaped from it. He said that he would rather drown himself than remain there subject to the treatment that he was experiencing and under the suspicion of malingering. What the Minister must ascertain is whether he has been badly treated. The case has not been properly investigated. Why should Perry be sent for at 11 o'clock at night merely to be submitted to an examination? When his complaints were first made, they should have been inquired into, and if he were merely slandering Dr. Meade, he should have been punished. The average common soldier cannot get justice from the Defence Department. There are officers who have proved themselves to be heroes, but there are many who have been merely shoved into their jobs. Why has not Dr. Maloney received a military appointment? Jobs have been found for Dr. Carty Salmon, for Mr. Chataway, and for Grace Watson. You have only to be connected with the Opposition to get anything you want; but on this side you have no chance of anything. Personally, I would rather grease the fat pig for my friends than for my enemies. Recently, at one of the camps, they have been dosing the men with quinine. This medicine suits some persons and not others ; and some of those to whom it was administered had the skin taken off their arms and legs. When they went to see the doctor, they were kept waiting from early morning until late at night. One of these men had to be bandaged up, and could not dress or feed himself, but he was ordered to report for duty; and when he found it necessary to go to bed for a week, his pay was stopped. That is an instance of the kind of treatment to which the men are subjected. The Minister cannot inquire personally into every case, but there should be a committee to investigate complaints. 6924 F4S Parramatta 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr JOSEPH COOK . - I wish to know what is to be the result of this discussion? Is anything to be done? My suggestion is that one of the three Ministers who are administering the Defence Department should, by seeing Perry, settle the questions that have been raised. That would take much less time than is now being wasted upon the case in office procedure and red tape. The Minister must accept responsibility; and if Perry were personally visited by the Minister of Defence or one of his colleagues, or brought to them, the honorable gentleman would see and judge for himself. Question resolved in the negative. 6924 miscellaneous 6924 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It was suggested this morning that the answers to the questions on to-day's notice-paper should be furnished to the members who ask for information, and should also be published in Hansard. Is it the desire of the House that that be done? Honorable Members. - Hear, hear! 6924 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - This procedure is to be followed only in regard to the day's questions and answers? 6924 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Yes. 6924 bill 6924 6924 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I move - That this Bill be now read a second time. This is a measure to enable the Treasurer to borrow £100,000 from the Commonwealth Bank, to be paid in respect of an arrangement regarding freights on Australian produce. Honorable members will best serve the purpose they have in view if they set forth any difficulties they find or objections they have, and I shall endeavour to answer them rather than traverse the matter at first. 6925 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - Is there any objection to laying the agreement on the table of the House? 6925 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I have already read the agreement. The letter from the charterers, which is embodied in Hansard, is the only agreement that we have. 6925 F4S 0 0 COOK, Joseph Mr Joseph Cook - What about the arrangement with the States? 6925 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES -I am glad the honorable member has reminded me of that. I will ask the Minister of Agriculture of Victoria, who had control of the matter at the Conference at which the agreement was arrived at, and who has sent a copy of the proceedings to all the other States, to furnish me with a copy this afternoon, which I shall lay on the table of the House. 6925 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Does the honorable member propose to ask the House to pass a formal motion approving of the agreement ? 6925 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - No, I propose to ask the House to express its opinion on the Bill, though actually it has nothing to do with the agreement itself. 6925 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS .- Had the Attorney-General assured the House that this transaction in regard to the export of wheat was a matter which had been undertaken because of the necessities of the war, very little real objection could be taken to the dislocation of trade that has already followed from the agreement that has been entered into, but at no stage has he done so. There may have been need for the Government to be assured that a sufficient quantity of sugar would be imported to make up the deficiency in our sugar crop, but the position in regard to wheat is quite different'. The Attorney-General has not said that it was necessary, in order to provide money for the conduct of the war, that the Commonwealth should undertake the. control of the export of wheat, so that we can regard this Bill as being outside the category of war measures. Even before any chartering of vessels had been done, dislocation of the ordinary channels of trade commenced. 6925 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - Does the honorable member refer to the elimination of middlemen ? 6925 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - No. The honorable member for Grey has clearly proved that, instead of this action on the part of the Commonwealth doing away with middlemen, it will create super-middlemen. By the wording of the agreement itself the agents of the Government' may charter through other persons, and they are to be paid a super-commission over and above the brokerage to be paid to other agents. All through this matter I have objected to the fact that the Attorney-General has not taken the House into his confidence. Even to-day we are not given any information. It was only by tracking the Minister from post to post that we could get any from him. He met us in a will o' the wisp fashion, changing his ground so often that we did not know where we stood in the matter, and the position is that to-day we are asked to pass legislation confirming & an arrangement about which we know nothing. In any case, the Attorney-General has entered upon a trading matter about which he could know very little. I do not propose to traverse the qualifications of the two agents whom he has selected. 6925 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Do they know anything about the business? 6925 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I think so, but there are others who know more about it - Gibbs, Bright, and Company are not wheat brokers. 6925 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Hear, hear! 6925 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - As wheat brokers they are unknown on the Baltic Exchange. They may have served the Commonwealth in other respects, but why they were selected to act in this matter I do not know. Discussion has already done a considerable amount of good. On the first occasion on which the Attorney-General furnished the House with any details of the commission which is to be paid to the charterers, fie failed to properly interpret what is known as the address commission in the charter party - a survival of an almost obsolete custom by which the shipper of wheat is allowed a rebate of 5 per cent, on the estimated gross freight on the vessel being loaded. The ordinary system is to divide that commission between the charter broker, who usually gets lj per cent., and the shipper, who gets the balance of 3| per cent. At first the Attorney-General said that the brokers' share - 1^ per cent. - would not be disturbed, but when honorable members on this side of the House pointed out that though it might be fair for the brokers to retain 1-J per cent, when freights were normal, and only one vessel was being chartered, it was altogether too high a proportion to allow them when the whole of the chartering was to be in their hands, and when freights are almost double the normal rates. The result of the intervention of honorable members has been to reduce the allowance to the charterers from approximately £75,000 or £80,000 to £25,000. I hope that the House will realize that the action of honorable members on this side has meant a saving of at least £50,000 to the wheat-growers of Australia. 6926 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The honorable member must not forget that I had something to say in that matter. It was not confined to his side of the House. 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - That is so. The honorable member, from his knowledge of the wheat business, was able to point out that the Government were making a present of an unusually large commission to the super-middlemen, as he called them. The Attorney-General finds his first difficulty in regard to the 3'| per cent. In the ordinary course of events this 3| per cent, forms portion of the basis upon which the wheat shipper, who almost invariably is also a wheat buyer in Australia, fixes the price he pays to the farmer. It is his ability to buy freight cheaper than his competitors that enables him to pay higher prices than his competitors can do. But the Attorney-General, in answer to the question put- by the honorable member for Wakefield as to what the Government proposed to do with this 3| per cent, that usually goes to the shipper, said that the Government proposed to stick to it. It was immediately pointed out by honorable members that neither the Commonwealth nor the States, the partners of the Commonwealth in this matter, rendered any service to the farmers such as would entitle them to make a levy of 3f per cent, on the wheat exported. In fact, "it was very aptly termed a duty on wheat export. As we are likely to have an exportation of over 2,000,000 tons of wheat this year, the 3£ per cent, should represent £350,000 which would have been retained from the farmers. 6926 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - On what is the honorable member basing his estimates? 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - On a freight of 80s. per ton and an export of 2,000,000 tons of wheat with a brokerage of 4d. per ton deducted from the 5 per cent, commission. The Minister will see that I am well within the mark. The Attorney-General, in reply to the remarks of honorable members, said that this was money that had previously gone into the pockets of the shippers, but he has since then abandoned that position. Subsequently he proposed to divide the 3| per cent, between the States and the Commonwealth, but he now says that after defraying any expenses that may be involved in the administration of this matter, the money will be handed over to the States. It seems to me that the States are to accept all the responsibility and odium that may come about as the result of this arrangement. 6926 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Will not the States be able to hand the money back in any way they like? 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I am glad the honorable member has asked that question. When wheat has been bought by the shipper it is put into great heaps. Some of it is sold to the millers, and is gristed here, but the bulk of it is shipped. However, the wheat, so far as the farmer is concerned, has altogether lost its identity. All of it has gone into a big heap, and how can the Government know which farmer's wheat has been shipped and which gristed ? The matter has gone too far for anything like an equitable return to be made. 6926 KR8 0 0 SHARPE, James Mr Sharpe - Will it not be averaged? 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - How can they average it? It is impossible to restore the status quo. 6926 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Not at all. 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - The Attorney-General has found it impossible, and- has asked the States to take over the business, and find a way out of the difficulty. 6926 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The States are in a different position. 6926 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - I have never been able to understand why the States were brought into this business, at all. They own no- wheat; they ship no wheat; and they have no responsibility. I have made it my business to see that before a ratification was made the farmers and shippers obtained certain guarantees from the Commonwealth and the States - firstly, that the Commonwealth would not limit exports, and, secondly, that the States would not withhold the use of their railway systems, or their country railway stations, or their ports, and that they would not fix prices. The whole business seems likely to get out of order. Before one ton of freight has been secured from the other side of the world, dislocation is taking place. Ordinarily wheat chartering commences in the month of August, 8 per cent, or 10 per cent, of the freight for the coming harvest being speck chartered, and, as a result, forward sales took place as early as September. To-day a certain proportion of the shipping of the world is getting out of position and away from the Australian trade. Yet, notwithstanding that this arrangement was made on the 24th July, not one ton of freight has been secured for the forthcoming harvest. As the harvest is to be a big one, a commencement in securing freights, should have been made at once. When the Prime Minister was asked why the House had not been given an opportunity to discuss this arrangement before it was made, he replied that the matter was urgent. So urgent has it been considered that a day or two ago there had not been a ton of freight chartered under this arrangement. Where, then, was the urgency? Had this business been left to those who usually obtain the freights, a big proportion would have been already secured. The Commonwealth wishes to secure and guarantee freight, but I am .unable to trace in the arrangement with Elder, Smith, and Company and Gibbs, Bright, and Company any undertaking to secure freight or anything as to the price to be paid. The Attorney-General has certainly failed to put the House in possession of reasonable information which would enable me, as a country representative, to say to. the producers that I believed that an arrangement had been made which would best serve the interests of the country. But all we can say now is little better than evidence given at a post-mortem examination. The bargain has been made, but the country is entitled to know where the responsibility rests and what financial obligation is cast upon the Government. We are asked in this Bill to vote for the Government a sum of £100,000. For what? We know that freight has not to be paid for as it is ordered - that is not the custom of the trade. Elder, Smith, and Company and Gibbs, Bright, and Company, according to the arrangement which has been made with the Government, have a right to charter, on behalf of the Commonwealth, the necessary freight. That will involve the Commonwealth in a liability, which is being shared by the States, of probably £6,000,000. Who can say that the price of freights will be maintained, and that the wheat shippers will take them off the Government's hands ? Who can say that there is not a certain element of gambling in this business? We have not been told how much of the liability has to be borne by the States. Whatever loss or profit is made is to be shared by the Commonwealth and the States, but in what proportion? The House is entirely without knowledge of this arrangement. The Attorney-General has just said that he is sending to one of his partners, the Victorian Minister of Agriculture, for information; but the House should have been in possession of that information long ago. Parliament has to accept the responsibility, and vote the necessary money, and it may have to accept a proportion of the loss if there should be a sudden drop in freight. In the very unlikely contingency of this war terminating immediately, the inevitable result would be the release of mercantile shipping, and freights would drop. In that event, if freights had been chartered by the Commonwealth, and had not been requisitioned by the buyers, the Government must make a considerable loss. That is why I am saying that it was unwise for the Government to enter into a business undertaking of this character unless there was pressing necessity for so doing. In the serious position that had arisen on account of the shortage of freights and the increase of prices, the Government had the right to ask for an assurance from those who ordinarily handle this trade that they would be in a position to carry out their arrangements as usual. We know that one result of the action taken by the Government is that the large operators in grain are standing off the market, and to-day farmers cannot sell one bag of wheat for forward delivery, as they have been able to do in ordinary years. There has been a substantial drop in the price of wheat in the world's markets during the last week or so. Wheat is down to-day to a parity of about 4b. in Australian ports. A little while ago the price was 7s. to 8s. per bushel on the home market. Australia's entire export shipping amounts, in round figures, to 10,000,000 tons per annum, and the import shipping to about 5,000,000 tons a year. Why was wheat, alone, selected for Government interference? If the principle of State acquisition of freights be right, have the Government no concern for other commodities ? Are they not concerning themselves with regard to wool freights? The prevailing custom in regard to the shipment of wool is that the freight is fixed in Australia by the Overseas Shipping Association, and probably the two firms which the Minister has selected for this job are members of that association. My contention in the early stages of this business was that if the Commonwealth ' desired to secure any means of bearing down the value of freights as against the shipping rings of the world, the right course of action was not to go to the agents of those shipping rings, and ask them to beat down their principals. Those firms have reached their present position of commercial ascendency as the direct agents and representatives of the big organizations which the Commonwealth now asks them to assist in beating down. If the Government were anxious to adopt the best means of securing cheap freights, they would have gone to the bond fide brokers, who understand the business, who know every bottom on the waters, and have such an organization that every time even a tub is chartered they are advised. I am afraid it is rather too late to endeavour to remedy the position. The Attorney-General has argued in this House that if there was to be competition by the wheat-shippers from Australia in order to secure freights from the other side of the world, the shipping people would be raising the prices against the Commonwealth; therefore, he thought it would be better to have one buying agency. My answer to that argument is this : Whilst, on the face of it, that contention may look arguable, it must be remembered that Australia produces not more than 3 per cent, or 4 per cent, of the world's wheat, and we must pay at least the world's price for shipping. Nothing the Commonwealth may do is going to particularly bear down the price ; but, on the contrary, I believe the arrangement which has been arrived at is likely to increase the price. The largest wheat-buyers in Australia are John Darling and Son, Bell and Company, and Louis Dreyfus, and their mode of operations is this: An inquiry goes forth for freight, and an immediate response is received by their own organization. They set to work to ascertain if they can sell cargoes, and if they have the wheat available business results. If they do not obtain buyers, there is no obligation on them to accept the freights. But in this Government transaction there is an obligation on the Commonwealth to buy, so that when the Government's representatives go on the market they go as definite buyers - they must buy, and the shipping world knows that. Then comes the opportunity for the great shipping concerns to say, " The Commonwealth is trying to bear down the prices, but we know that the Commonwealth < must buy, whereas the shippers need not buy, and, therefore, we only quote them such prices as will leave them a working margin." I "think that is a rational view to take of this transaction. There is an entire absence of information as to the basis on which the allotment of space is to take place. How do the representatives of South Australia, for instance, know the proportion in which space is to be allotted to that State? What information have we been given as to what, proportion will be allotted for flour, wheat, barley, oats, or other produce? The bargain seems to have been made in a most casual way. I admit that several times the Attorney-General has changed his ground and altered his arrangements until gradually the business is being licked into shape, but that is mainly the result of the criticism from this side of the House. The whole transaction would have benefited in regard to many of its features by consultation between the Government and the representatives of the interests .involved. I could, if necessary, deal with other phases of the agreement, and point to various anomalies; but I shall confine myself to the statement that there was never any justification for this action on the part of the Commonwealth. There was at no time a demand by the wheatgrowers, by the trade, or by the States; but there was a desire on the part of the Attorney-General to make such an arrangement. That desire found expression in an attempt by him to get his partners in this agreement into line on terms of which all of them did not approve. The honorable gentleman told us that in the action he was taking he had the cordial co-operation of the States and of all the interests involved. For three days, however, many of those interests were at bay; they were bargaining and changing their position. It was only at the point of the bayonet - in order that no further dislocation might be caused by one State standing out while others entered into the agreement - that the bargain was ratified. I hope that in respect of any future bargaining of this character, affecting any exportable product of Australia, the same method will not be adopted; but that reasons will be given for the action taken, and that those primarily concerned - the producers - will have an opportunity to state their case. 6929 KYD Grey 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON .- I entirely concur with much, that has been said by the honorable member for "Wannon, although I differ altogether from the opinion expressed by him that there was no demand for this arrangement. 6929 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Questions were put to me by honorable members on both sides of the House as to what steps we intended to take for the handling of the wheat harvest. 6929 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I was about to mention that fact. The question was also raised in the press and in every State Parliament, and it was suggested that the State and Federal Governments should take concerted action to secure freights for the forthcoming harvest. The Attorney-General, in his anxiety to meet the public clamour, made a mistake in the way that he proceeded to take action. In the first place, he should have called to his counsel those who were directly interested, not only the shippers or charterers, but those who desired to secure storage for the wheat they purchased. I certainly would have consulted such people. At the same time, 1 wish to compliment the Attorney-General upon having arrived, after some delay, at what seems to me to be a much fairer basis than that of the original proposition. I was amazed when he made a statement in the House that the Governments concerned were going to retain the difference of 3f per cent, in the 5 per cent, rebate allowed. After consideration, he apparently came to the conclusion that there was no justification for such a course. , . 6929 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - It was the conference with the States that settled that point. 6929 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - Not at all. Some of the States, according to a press report, seemed to think that the retention of this surplus would be a very fine thing for them. It is idle to complain of what has been done. It cannot be denied that before this agreement was arranged there were indications in every direction of a serious shortage of freights. We also knew that enormously' high rates were being paid, and that there was a possibility of the demand for freights increasing those rates. I thoroughly agree with the honorable member for Wannon that it would have been well to consult large buyers and charterers, who employ some of the brightest men in the trade to secure charters. Had they been approached in the right way no doubt they would have been willing to place at the disposal of the Attorney-General most of the information possessed by them. After all, it will be found necessary to go to these men in order to secure freights. Messrs. Gibbs, Bright, and Company, and Messrs. Elder, Smith and Company do not propose to provide for all the freight. Acting as a kind of middlemen, they are to make arrangements with others to carry some of the produce. 6929 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - And those other persons will secure a commission? 6929 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - Yes. Having regard to all the circumstances, I think that the Attorney-General is to be complimented on what he has done. 'I pay my tribute to his great courage, and to the capacity he has displayed in dealing with a number of very important questions. He has had to deal with the metal exchange business, the question of alien contracts, the arrangements for handling the wheat harvest, and the sugar business. In addition to attending to all these matters, he has been at the beck and call df every other Minister, because he is the only lawyer in the Cabinet. I marvel that he has got out of this as well as he has done. The statement made by him last night, in reply to the Leader of the Opposition, and the reply also given by him to a question which I put last Friday, have eased my mind with regard to the disposal of the surplus of the 3£ per cent, of rebate. There may be some charges to be deducted from that surplus, but they will be trifling. I do not think that in the past the wheat-grower got the whole of the difference, and I am sure that the honorable member for Wannon does not think so. 6930 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - No; they got not the whole, but practically the whole of it. 6930 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - It sometimes pays a buyer to advance the price of wheat in certain localities, particularly when he desires to make up a cargo. What concerns me mostly is how the Attorney-General is going to return the surplus rebate to those who should receive it. I hope he will be careful. The cooperation of the States should prove valuable, but it seems to me that this money can be returned to the growers only by means of rebates on freights. Care must be taken that such rebates go to the actual producers of the wheat. Even under such a system it will not be possible to reach all the growers, because wheat is raised in many districts where there are no railways, and where it has to be carted over long distances, so that producers there would not receive any rebate. Speaking generally, I think we can congratulate ourselves on the action that has been taken, and that the Attorney-General can congratulate himself that he has got out of the whole business as well as he has done. 6930 L0P Wimmera 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON .- I agree with the honorable member for Wannon that the questions put to the Attorney-General in this House, and the subsequent Conference which he held with the State Premiers, have had the effect of considerably improving the agreement as originally proposed. This House, however, has not been treated as it should have been. The Attorney-General should have placed before us the terms and conditions agreed upon as between himself and the States. I have a shrewd suspicion that the honorable gentleman agreed with the State Ministers in Conference to rebate to them the whole of the 5 per cent, over and above the 4d. per ton necessary to pay the agents who chartered the vessels- 6930 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - .Fourpence per ton is not the gross amount. In some cases it may run up to Sd. 6930 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Other reasonable charges may be added. The main object that we have in view is to make adequate arrangements for the handling of the harvest. Information from the wheat-growing districts of Australia indicates that we shall probably have next season a record harvest, and the largest export of wheat in the history of the Commonwealth. It is highly necessary that complete arrangements should be made for the export of our surplus wheat, not only that we may be better fitted to prosecute the war, but that we may supply the Allied Forces abroad in the event of large supplies of wheat from other parts not being released for that purpose. The provision of the necessary freights was then the all-important consideration. 1 am not very sanguine of any material reduction in rates under any system of agency or brokerage. My experience as a member of the Fruit Commission, which travelled all over Australia, is that freights are generally the same all over the Commonwealth. There are no material differences. It is possible to secure a reduction only by going into the market as some spirited agents in Australia have done, and making arrangements for years ahead, guaranteeing a certain quantity of freight and possessing the ability to fill up any dead space if the particular product arranged for is not available. 6930 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - But the Commission found that the man who made his own arrangement made the best bargain. 6930 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Yes; but he was able to do so only by guaranteeing freights for several year3 ahead. 6930 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Has he got the freight for next year at the same price? 6930 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Yes, we had instances of the kind. 6930 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - He has not got it. 6930 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - I am speaking of sworn evidence given before the Commission that freights were arranged for a period of four years ahead at 15 per cent, less than the ordinary average price in respect of liners coming to Australia. 6930 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Is he likely to get the same rate for the next season ? The honorable member says he has the same rate, whereas I say he has not. 6930 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - I am not discussing the present abnormal position, but merely saying there might be a possibility of smart agents agreeing for a certain quantity of space, and so arranging the timetable and other matters as to obtain a substantial concession. Our general experience is not in favour of the view that there is likely to be any considerable reduction; and we should have some information as to how the space is to be regulated. We do not know how far it will be possible to arrange for the filling of space, or what is going to be done where it is ordered and not filled. We might find the shippers, under the latter circumstances, demanding a certain amount of money. We are speaking largely in the dark; and we should have been told who were called into the counsels of the Attorney-General and the State representatives at the conference in Victoria. At the conference with the Ministers of Agriculture, the Attorney-General modified his proposals by stating that all the surplus amount of the 5 per cent, over and above the actual expenses should be rebated to the growers; but, so far as we know, not one grower or representative of the growers was consulted. 6931 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The shipper has never been consulted. 6931 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - But the Government are constantly declaring that the Labour party is against the middleman, and in favour of the real producer of the wealth of the country ; and yet, when much could have been done on behalf of the primary producer, the latter was not consulted in the fixing of the freightage, although he has had to bear the burden of the drought, and now expects the best terms to enable him to recover. 6931 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Do you not think the proposed arrangement is better for the grower than the ordinary shipping arrangements ? 6931 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - I think that, in some instances, the freight will prove to be higher than if it had been arranged by smart and experienced business men. The redeeming feature of the agreement is that there is a possibility now of being able to secure the necessary amount of space ; but, so far as the business side is concerned, it is probable that not the best class of man has been appointed to drive a hard bargain, and, save, perhaps, some portion of the money paid on behalf of the growers. There is no doubt that the producers should have been consulted before the agreement was ratified. Even now we do not know what took place at the conference between representatives of the States and the Commonwealth ; but we do know that, after all, the 5 per cent. usually allowed by the shipping companies is largely the profit that ordinary dealers secure every year on their wheat export transactions. It is possible, with this 5 per cent., for them to go into the market, as they do, and give the full amount for the wheat less the actual freightage, depending entirely on the commission for the profit. If anything less than the full amount, less the bare expenses, is rebated to the growers, there will be an injustice done. I regret that we have had to debate the question without full information before us ; and I hope that, if there are any official papers, we shall have an opportunity to scrutinize them, in order that we may know what interests were represented when the Attorney-General, at the instance largely of this House, had a conference with the States, and brought about a modification of the agreement by affording relief to the growers to the extent of a return of the great bulk of the 5 per cent. 6931 L4X Indi ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY . - The honorable member for Wannon, like myself and others who represent country constituencies, looks at this question principally from the stand-point of the producers. At any rate, that is the stand-point which I desire to take, and which I have always taken. My only concern is that such arrangements shall be made as shall assure the producers that they will get their produce away on the very best terms. 6931 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - That is all I am concerned about. 6931 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - There will be a greater certainty of this under the proposed arrangement than if the producers were left to the mercy of those brokers and others who do not live by giving concessions to producers. 6931 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Have we got away from the brokers? 6931 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The honorable member is speaking of one set of brokers, while I am speaking of another. The brokers, agents, and middlemen whom I desire to cut out are those who, in the past, have not, to say the least, been influenced by consideration for the farmers; and I think that the agreement will result in the disappearance of a great number of those undesirables. The honorable member for Wannon said that there was no necessity for this proposed arrangement; but does he know that the mercantile marine has been lessened to the extent of some 30 per cent.? Under the present abnormal conditions, the Government would have shirked their responsibility if they had not taken some action. 6932 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - The question is whether the Government have made the best business arrangement. 6932 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - I agree with the honorable member for Wimmera in the hope that the agreement will not be accepted until there has been an opportunity for thorough investigation. There is no doubt that we should have seen the agreement, though I regard it as a start on the right lines, in view of the depletion in our mercantile marine. Under the agreement, the farmers of the country have an infinitely better chance of favorable terms than if they were left to the mercies of what I may call a shipping ring. As to the rebate of 3^ per cent., the Attorney-General said that the Government were going to " stick to it." With that attitude I do nob agree. 6932 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - There was a chorus of laughter over that. 6932 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - There was a chorus of objections. Now, however, the Attorney-General has told us that it is not so, but that the rebate is going back to the States. 6932 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - That was one of the results of the conference. 6932 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - It was brought about owing to representations made by the honorable member for Grey, and others of us, to the Attorney-General. However, the honorable member for Wannon still seems to have an objection; and that is what makes me believe that he is not so much concerned about the benefit to the farmer as about the benefit to somebody else. 6932 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - That is not a fair statement. 6932 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Perhaps it is a little too strong; but, at any rate, there will be a better chance of the rebates going back into the pockets of the producers. The States, of course, own the railways, and this gives a further chance of the money - though not, perhaps, to a penny - reaching the producers. However, as I have said, my great concern is that the growers shall have an assurance that their produce shall be got away, because it would be absolutely dangerous to their interests and to the interests of the community, if the arrangements were in a haphazard way left to the shipping rings. 6932 KFE Dampier 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- I cannot allow the debate to close without entering an emphatic protest. I object to the Government entering into huge business arrangements regarding matters of which they have no knowledge. It has been shown that the Attorney-General has climbed down, and, apparently, from beginning to end, has not known where he was. This, of course, is bound, in the end, to react on the producers. In the second place, I object to our being asked to ratify an agreement of which we have no knowledge; such a position is derogatory to Parliament, and there can be no reason why the question should have been submitted at the last moment. There has been ample time since the agreement was first arranged to afford the House the fullest information. In the third place, I object to a monopoly being given to any two firms. The Government might have employed firms to assist them, and have done a great deal of good in providing the necessary space, but there was no need to give a monopoly. I do not regard the agreement as in any sense in the interests of the producers, and, therefore, I am opposed to it. I do not propose to enter into any argument at this stage. I simply protest against the agreement being ratified without honorable members having any knowledge of its contents. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee: Clause 1 agreed, to. Clause 2 (Treasurer may borrow moneys from the Commonwealth Bank). 6932 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS .- May I bring this point under the notice of the Attorney-General % An exceptionally heavy harvest is in sight, a portion of which will go abroad as wheat, and a portion as flour. An opportunity now occurs for Australia to increase her output of flour. For the first six months of the wheat season, flour is in demand abroad. In the second half Australian millers are beaten by the Americans. Now is the opportunity to grist more flour in Australia. Extended operations in this direction will absorb labour when there is unemployment, and it will make available offal as well as flour for cheap home consumption. I would suggest to the Attorney-General that he should confer with the flour millers of Australia, and perhaps by making some concession in the matter of freight it may be possible to do something in this matter. 6933 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I shall be quite willing to do what the honorable member suggests, though it must be understood that I cannot move without the cooperation and approval of the States. At the recent conference the question of flour export was considered, and it was agreed that facilities for the shipment of flour should be afforded just as for wheat. The honorable member for Wannon would go further than that. His suggestion is that such inducements should be offered as may lead to the production of more flour in Australia, and to the export of flour rather than of wheat. That is a perfectly sound policy, and the Commonwealth Government will be very glad to support it. The adjourned State conference will meet on 15th October or thereabouts. In the meantime I will write to the various State Ministers of Agriculture inviting their opinions on this matter, and asking for suggestions as to how best it can be carried out. I will further suggest that a conference should be held with flour millers. The Government will be glad not only in this matter, but in any other, to encourage the producer, whether he be a primary or a secondary producer. 6933 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - And now that the bargain is made we will do all that we can to help in carrying it out. 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I shall be very pleased if that be the case. 6933 L0P Wimmera 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Can the Attorney-General give the Committee any information as to what tonnage may be expected from the interned vessels or from the vessels that will be used by the Defence Department? 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It is difficult to say, but we expect to be able to carry 250,000 tons. 6933 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - That is half the amount specified in the agreement ! Will any commission be paid to brokers in respect to that space ? 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - No; if they do any work we shall pay them a fair rate, but there will be no commission. 6933 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - May I explain that freight has been allotted to each State upon the basis of its amount of exportable wheat. The same principle will be adopted in regard to the allocation to individuals. Every shipper will be treated fairly, and no preference will be given to a State over an individual. Everybody, whether he be John Jones, or a State Government, will be treated exactly alike. If one man happens to get a larger assignment of freight this month he will get a smaller assignment next. Everybody will be treated fairly and in order. The matter is to be discussed in detail in October, when shippers will be able to bring forward definite requirements. The committee will then deal with them and allocate what ships are to be used. 6933 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - May I ask the Attorney-General if he intends to adopt the same policy in regard to this freight as was adopted in regard to sugar; if so, will the freight be less from Western Australia to London than from New South Wales? 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - It may be that some vessels will fill up entirely in Western Australia, though it does not follow that the freight from Western Australia will vary from that from Sydney. 6933 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - It will be an " all ports " option. 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I am not going to commit myself definitely. The question presents as many difficulties as that asked by the honorable member for Corangamite about the bull. 6933 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS .- The Attorney-General's statement regarding the allocation of space is reasonable, but I can foresee a little difficulty. The Commonwealth will have bought the freight. Shippers, however, will not have bought the wheat, and will not have requisitioned the space. The market may be drooping, and shippers may be inclined to wait in order to obtain a cheaper freightage. 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - They will not be able to do that. That will not be permitted. Clause agreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. Clause 4 (Interest). 6933 L0P Wimmera 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON .- Can the Attorney-General say from what fund interest payments will be made ? 6933 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - There are large funds to the credit of the Commonwealth in the Commonwealth Bank. Until those funds are overdrawn interest payments will not be necessary. 6933 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - One fund will be balanced against the other. 6934 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Yes. 6934 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - I should like to know from the Attorney-General what arrangements have been made in regard to the filling of space. Space must be ordered in advance, and when so ordered must be filled within a fixed period, or otherwise demurrage will be charged on account of the ship. With a bumper harvest, there may be congestion on the railway lines, making it impossible for consignments to arrive in time. What arrangements have the Government made in regard to this matter other than those which usually apply ? 6934 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - The usual chartering agreement will be made. If we charter space and cannot fill it, we must still pay for it. 6934 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - I should like the Attorney-General to consider whether some agreement cannot be come to which will make the conditions more flexible. 6934 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I shall do that. Clause agreed to. Clause5 (Closing of account). Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the clause be negatived, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following new clause: - " S. If the Treasurer is of opinion that there no longer exists any need for the continuation of the Commonwealth Treasurer Freight Arrangements Account, the Treasurer may close the account, and thereupon the balance of the Account, if a credit balance, shall be transferred to the Consolidated Revenue Fund, and, if a debit balance, shall be payable out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, which is hereby appropriated for that purpose accordingly. 6934 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS .- As it is proposed to amend the Bill, it will be entirely at the discretion of the Treasurer as to when the agreement shall terminate. I respectfully submit that we should not agree to an arrangement which may be continued as the policy of the country after the war. I think that we should provide that the present arrangement shall not continue for a greater period than the currency of the present war. 6934 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Then it will be best to add a proviso. Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to - . That the following words be added to the proposed new clause: - "Provided that this Act shall continue in operation during the present wheat season, but thereafter shall not continue in force after the expiration of six months from the end of the present war." 6934 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - The effect of this provision might be to extend the arrangement over a second harvest. That should be provided against. 6934 DQC West Sydney ALP Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I promise that the arrangement shall not be continued over a second season until this House has had an opportunity to review the whole question without prejudice. The amendment is intended to limit the operation of the measure to the present harvest, and to give the House an opportunity to approve or disapprove of any extension of it. I think that with that assurance the amendment may be accepted. Amendment of the amendment agreed to. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments. Standing Orders suspended, and report adopted. Bill read a third time. 6934 bill Bill returned from the Senate with the message that the Senate did not insist on its amendment disagreed to by the House of Representatives, and agreed to the consequential amendment of the House of Representatives. 6934 bill Message received from the Senate that it had agreed to the amendments of the House of Representatives. 6934 miscellaneous Motion (by Mr. Kelly), by leave, agreed to - That a return be laid upon the Table of the House showing - 1 ) How many recommendations to prosecute for infringements of the Enemy Trading Act have reached the Attorney-General to date. In how many cases has it been decided to prosecute. How many prosecutions have been inaugurated and how many dealt with. 6934 special adjournment Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to - That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 27th October next, unless Mr. Speaker shall, prior to that date, by telegram addressed to each member of the House, fix an earlier day of meeting. 6934 miscellaneous Mr. MAHON (Kalgoorlie - Minister of External Affairs) [4.30]. - Judging by statements made in this Chamber, some misapprehension exists concerning the visit of the Secretary of my Department to the Northern Territory. That visit was made expressly at my request, at very short notice, and at considerable personal inconvenience to Mr. Hunt, who has done, and is doing, excellent work. He has visited Bathurst and Melville Islands, and Alligator River, and states that he is quite satisfied with the progress made by the mission at the first named place, " considering that the settlement was established among natives previously untouched by white man's influence." He then proceeded via Melville Island to Alligator River, by the Leichhardt, and up the river for about 40 miles to Cahill's Settlement, which place he considered most satisfactory for an aboriginal station. He also says that it offers very fine promise as a centre of possible dairy settlement, and that portion of the original shipment of cows from Queensland was successfully taken across a wide stretch of country between Burrundie and the Alligator River, and are now in most excellent condition on fine flats adjacent to Cahill's homestead, where first-class butter is being produced with most primitive appliances and with practically no previous experience on the part of Cahill and his wife. He says that the whole place is an excellent illustration of what a man of energy can do. He then travelled overland 160 miles to Burrundie, visiting Mount Well's mine en route, carefully examining the country passed over, which, he says, is of a most varied description. He reports that extensive flats prevail in the neighbourhood of the Alligator River, which are mostly under water in the wet season, but are now covered with abundant grasses of a good quality. He carefully considered the prospects of that particular district as a settlement for returned soldiers, but he says that any proposal of that kind would involve a large amount of expenditure. Then he inspected the settlers' properties on the Daly River. He says generally the settlers are not doing well, but he is convinced that it is due to their own incapacity, as at Stapleton and Daly there are individuals who are certainly making good. He inspected the copper mines at the Daly River, which, he says, promise well. Then he motored to Brock's Creek and Mount Bonney to inspect a mine, which, he says, is carrying out developmental work. He also inspected the Iron Blow Mine, now Government property, which is being unwatered. He proposed to leave on Friday last to inspect construction works and visit the Argentine settlers, and to join the Administrator at Katherine on Monday next, for the purpose of visiting Marranboy and Mataranka and the Roper River. 6935 leave of absence Motion (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That leave of absence until the next meeting of the House be granted to the honorable member for Cook. 6935 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I understand that the honorable member is the only one whose seat would be affected by the adjournment of the House without special leave being granted. Question resolved in the affirmative- 6935 miscellaneous 6935 Motion (by Mr. Archibald) agreed' to- That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1013-1014, the following works be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for their report thereon, viz.: - Alterations and additions to the Customs House, Sydney. Additional office accommodation at Victoria Barracks, Melbourne. Barracks, quarters, gun park, &c, for the Royal Australian Field Artillery, Enoggera, Queensland. Cement works for Federal Capital and other Commonwealth purposes. Sitting suspended from 4.37 to 5 p.m. 6935 bill Bill returned from the Senate without amendment. 6935 adjournment 6935 Perry - Return of Wounded and Invalided Soldiers - Sickness in Camps - Lieutenant Patterson - Small Arms Factory, Canberra - Military Hospital Administration - Railway Carriage of CountryMails. Motion (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 6936 KRN Moreton 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR .- On the 15th August I asked the Postmaster-General if it was true that the Public Service Commissioner was evading the Arbitration Court's award in regard to letter sorters by imposing a barrier test; if so, what action did the Minister propose to take. The Minister replied - A reply from myself and the Public Service Commissioner is in the hands of the organization, and we are awaiting their reply. On presentation of the case to myself, some modification was made in regard to a matter objected to, and I am hopeful that the question will be finally settled. This morning I asked the Postmaster-General if any finality had been reached in the matter. But it appears that he is waiting for a reply from the Letter Sorters Union, while the union is waiting for a reply from him. It looks as if the Minister is a party to a move to sidestep the award of the Court which he was instrumental in establishing, and I think he was, to some extent, responsible for the letter sorters taking their case to the Court. The union went to the Court, and' asked for shorter hours and higher minimum and maximum rates of pay. His Honour fixed the minimum at £150 for sorters at present in the Service, and £168 for future appointees. All the sorters now engaged had passed a certain test qualifying them for their positions, and the Commissioner now says that they must pass a new test before they can enjoy the benefits of the award. I have failed to discover in His Honour's award that he directed the holding of any such examination, and one cannot wonder that the sorters propose to issue a writ of mandamus to prevent the imposing of this barrier test. If the Commissioner has power to force a test on the men at this stage, he has power to enforce it on them at any other stage, and so prevent officers from getting promotion. I understand that so far no application to undergo the test has been made by the sorters, although such application must be made before the 15th of the present month. Men have been prevented from getting increases to which they would have been entitled under the old order of things from the 1st August, and thus are deprived by this new regulation of increments which they would have obtained had they not gone to the Court at all. I shall read portions of the regulation regarding this barrier test, and I ask the Postmaster-General whether it is reasonable to condition in this way the increments to men already in the Service. I do not think there is any necessity for the test, and I shall show that it is altogether unreasonable. The regulation reads - The passing of the prescribed Sorting Test constitutes one of the conditions governing advancement beyond the Efficiency Bar (£168), as fixed by Arbitration Court Award. Sorters presenting themselves for examination will be required to pass the following test, viz. : - Primary Sorting (Inland). - A series of addressed letters, imitation letters or cards, shall be prepared in each State, representing the total number of post-offices (including official, semi-official, allowance, 'and receiving offices, but excluding metropolitan and suburban offices) in such State. Five hundred of these articles shall be drawn by the supervising officer to be sorted by the candidate in a maximum time of 14 minutes. The divisions into which these articles must be sorted shall be the actual sorting divisions used in the Mail Branch of the State. If when the 500 cards have been sorted the candidate has a balance of time available he shall not be permitted to utilize such time to resort any cards which may have been wrongly sorted. Boiled down, that regulation means that a number of cards representing various post-offices and semi-official offices throughout the State, excluding the metropolitan area, are to be thrown together; 500 are to be taken out haphazard, and the sorter is to be asked to sort them with a maximum error of 10 per cent. I challenge any officer in the Department to do that. The highest heads in the Department are not able to take up 500 letters addressed to various post-offices in Australia and sort them in fourteen minutes with only 10 per cent, of errors. In regard to geographical knowledge the regulation says - Knowledge of geography of States of Commonwealth, excluding State in which candidate is employed (already covered by Primary Sorting Test). Names of towns (50 in number) to be selected from official post-offices and semi-official post-offices in five States in approximate relative proportion to the total number of such offices in each State. Allowance and Receiving Offices not to be included. Candidates will be required to name the State in which each of the 50 towns is situated. Maximum errors allowed will be 5. If I were to ask honorable members of this House where the important town of Boonah, in Queensland, was situated, they would not be able to answer. This is a cruel and hard test to impose upon these officers, and although I would not like to accuse the Minister or the Commissioner of deliberately setting up this barrier test for the purpose of depriving officials of their increments-, that will be its effect. "We need not be surprised if, after the 15th of the present month, serious difficulty arises amongst the postal sorters. I hope that some way out of the difficulty will be found, and that the Department will not insist upon applying this test to officers already engaged. We must admit that the postal sorters have done their work remarkably well in the past. Letters have carried to their destination with very little interruption. The officers have many difficulties to contend with in the way of faulty addresses, but, generally speaking, we only hear of their failures, and not of the great amount of good work which they do from day to day. The sorting of mail matter and sending it correctly to its destination is a difficult task, and the small number of errors that comes to light speaks volumes for the efficiency of the postal sorters. 6937 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Hear, hear! But we require efficient sorters. 6937 KRN 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR - Yes ; and I have no objection to the test being applied to the men who are now seeking positions in the Department. But it is unjust to impose a test like this upon men who have been twenty years in the Service. I understand that junior sorters are to be dispensed with, so that, unless the officers at present in the Service can pass this test, and so qualify to rank as senior sorters, they will not derive any benefits from the award. I regret that the Postmaster-General is not present, but I hope that he will take note of what I have said, and that a way out of the difficulty will be found. 6937 KLM Melbourne ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY . - I have had an opportunity of reading what the Minister. of Defence said to-day in another place in regard to the case of Gunner W. Perry, and I shall explain in a few moments the only objection I have to his remarks. He mentioned the_ paragraph at the end of my letter - " With all greetings re your plucky act, and good luck." Surely it was a plucky act for the Minister to ascend in an aeroplane! I admire any one who will do a plucky act, but if the Minister objects to that admiration he may consider it eliminated from my letter. On the telephone I asked the Minister if he would allow a medical man to attend on the Board which was to examine Perry. He said he would not. I said, " Will you allow me to be present as the member for Melbourne?" He answered " No." " Will you allow m« to have a lawyer present?" "No." Then I asked who would be the members of the Board, but I could not obtain that information. That is the Board which Senator Pearce sent to examine this' unfortunate man on Monday night. The promise given to me was that the man would not be forced back to the hospital, but could go to some other hospital, where he would get more skilled surgical attention. Dr. Meade claims that I have gone behind the privilege of Parliament to call him a cowardly liar. He adds, " Such conduct reflects upon the public life of this country when a politician is enabled to traduce in Parliament the honour of a man merely on the uncorroborated ex parte statements of any man." Does the. Trades Hall Council enjoy parliamentary privilege? Will the next public meeting I shall call to deal with this subject have the protection of parliamentary privilege ? I tell Dr. Meade again that if he says that Perry is a malingerer he is a liar and a coward. That has been said, and will be said by me at every meeting I have addressed or shall address. I had the greatest difficulty to discover to-day where Dr. Meade was. The authorities at the Department denied that he was there, and I think a little inquiry regarding this gentleman is advisable. I ask the Minister representing the Minister of Defence whether the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition is to be adopted that a Minister shall personally see this man? 6937 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - The Minister for the Navy was present when the suggestion was made, and I understood him to say that he would bring it under the notice of the Minister of Defence. 6937 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - If that is done. I shall be very pleased. It is painful to have to listen to these unfortunate stories. Since I spoke this morning, I have been interviewed by a gentleman who drove into the city some of the poor fellows invalided home, who arrived at Port Melbourne this morning. We know how the first party of soldiers invalided home were treated on their arrival here ; and, in passing, I should like to ask whether the doctor who examined this man was one of those who was responsible for the unfortunate hitch that then occurred. The gentleman who waited on me this morning said that among the returned soldiers whom he brought to the city to-day was a man who said that he knew Perry in Egypt and was aware that he had been treated there by Dr. Fred Bird and Dr. Springthorpe, but had not been, cured. The returned soldier went on to say, " If I am any judge of a man,' Perry is no malingerer." 6938 KNH Melbourne Ports 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS . - I regret that it should be necessary to detain honorable members at this late hour, but I wish to put before the House a quotation from a letter I have received from a constituent concerning the treatment meted out in camp to a relative of his. One does not like to be constantly hammering away at the Defence Department, but when cases of this kind are brought before us, it is just as well that they should be mentioned in the House. The quotation is as follows: - Did you notice in Friday's paper a death notice, the name of Private Prideau, from Port Melbourne? Well, that was my late stepbrother's son. He came from Seymour Camp last Monday, ill, and went to the Base Hospital at St. Kilda-road; was there Monday and Tuesday with asthma and bronchial pneumonia. On Wednesday the poor fellow was told to get up by the doctor, and he said he felt too ill. The doctor said "What rot," and got two soldiers to get his clothes on. How the poor fellow got home to Port we don't know, for he came home on Wednesday morning, and was dead on Thursday morning. They sent an ambulance on Thursday night to take him back to the Base Hospital, but he was in his coffin. They got the police's authority, and the Port Melbourne doctor's; but if he had been sent away from any other hospital there would be an inquiry; but coming from the Military Base Hospital, it will need no inquiry, but will be hushed up, so don't talk of enlisting, after that. He was only 24 years, and his mother is broken up over it. He was turned out of hospital on the Wednesday, and he died next morning. We hear of many cases of the kind, and there is no redress. 6938 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - None whatever. I have had three more cases brought under my notice this morning. 6938 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - I have made the statement in this House on two occasions that much of the sickness in camps in Victoria is due to want of proper attention. Men have to wait forty -eight hours to receive medical attention. 6938 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr Groom - Is there an adequate supply of nurses in the local camps? 6938 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - No. The people expect that something shall be done to remove these horrors. My correspondent writes, " No more enlistment after this." How can a man be expected to go out recruiting when he is brought face to face with facts like these? The Minister for the Navy is, unfortunately, not present; but it would seem that he has no jurisdiction over such cases. I place this letter on record as illustrating once more the horrors that have taken place in connexion with recruiting for our Expeditionary Forces. 6938 KZT Wannon LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS . - I wish to enlist the sympathetic consideration of the Minister for the Navy, and, indeed, of the whole Ministry, for the case of young Lieutenant Patterson, an ex-member of the Permanent Forces in Queensland, whose services have been dispensed with by the Department. I do not wish to pre-judge the case in any way, nor shall I ask the House to do so. Lieutenant Patterson has had a brilliant career. He passed with special credit all the examinations to which he was subjected, and his reputation in the Service was that of a brilliant man of very great promise. His services were dispensed with in the following circumstances: He applied for service abroad, and although as a lieutenant in the Permanent Forces he was engaged in instructing other officers who were qualifying for service at the front, he was told that he must submit himself for examination. He was not aware until he received a telegram from the Department whether the examination was to take place at Melbourne or Sydney. On arrival at Sydney he found that he had to present himself there for examination. Before leaving Queensland, he was not even aware of the purpose of the call. He felt that he was more than qualified to pass the examination to which he would have to submit, but having made inquiries from other officers as to the nature and purpose of the examination that he was to be called upon to undergo, he determined to withdraw his application to go abroad. He was led to do this because a previous qualifying examination had not been conducted upon lines such as he and other members of the staff considered to be right and fair. It was in those circumstances that he withdrew his application. Subsequent to his leaving Queensland for Sydney, there was paid into his account money to cover his travelling expenses. Later on, he sent in a warrant to secure the total of his travelling expenses, representing about £5. Those expenses were paid to him. When it was reported to head-quarters that he had not submitted himself to this examination, he was asked to make a refund of the expenses that had been paid to him. He declined to do so. He said that, as a military officer, he lived under the military law and regulations; and finally, after considerable correspondence, his services were dispensed with. No charge was made against him. He was dismissed without having an opportunity to put his case. Part of the examination to which he was to submit was oral, and he had had, practically, no prior notice of it. This young fellow - a particularly skilled officer - believing that he was working within the military laws and regulations, declined to accede to the request for a refund of the money paid by way of travelling expenses. As the result, he was dismissed from the Service; but that dismissal, I understand, has not been confirmed by the Executive. I ask the Minister for the Navy to give his very best consideration to this case, and to cause a full disclosure of the whole of the facts to be made, so that this young man shall have, at least, an opportunity to be heard, and in order that the Commonwealth shall not lose a good officer, and that his future career shall not be blighted . 6939 L4X Indi ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY .-:-I promised the honorable member for Macquarie that I would bring before the House a question relating to the motion with regard to the building of a Small Arms Factory at Canberra. As that motion has been removed from the notice-paper- 6939 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member cannot now discuss it. 6939 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - I merely desire, on behalf of the honorable member for Macquarie, to obtain an assurance that nothing will be done to give effect to this proposal until Parliament has been afforded an opportunity to discuss and deal with it. In the absence of the Acting Prime Minister, the Minister for Home Affairs will probably give me this assurance, which I think is one to which the House is entitled. 6939 KNF Richmond LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE .- It was arranged to-day that answers to questions on notice, instead of being read in the House, should be handed over to Hansard for publication. I have not been able, however, to find any answer to question No. 25 on the notice-paper, which I addressed to the Minister for the Navy in regard to certain contracts and transports. I presume there is no objection to the papers being laid on the table. 6939 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - There is, but the honorable member, or any other honorable member, may see the papers at any time. , 6939 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Is there anything confidential in them ? 6939 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - There is a report from the Auditor-General, but we expect to receive further information from him, and until we do it is not advisable that the papers should be published. 6939 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Are we to understand that the Auditor-General's report is not yet complete, and that, consequently, the Minister cannot make the papers public? 6939 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - I shall not say that. 6939 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - I wish to know if there is any objection- to placing these papers on the table of the House later on, so that they may be made public? Certain charges were made, and there has been a certain amount of suspicion ; but I understand that there is nothing of a private nature in the question. 6939 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - I shall hand in the reply to the honorable gentleman's question, so that it may appear amongst the other replies to questions in Hansard. 6939 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - Am I to take it that the Minister does not wish to place the papers on the table? 6939 KK9 0 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - The honorable member, or any other honorable member, may see the papers at the Navy Office. 6939 KFE Dampier 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- I wish to emphasize my opinion that there should be a strict and impartial inquiry into the administration and methods adopted at the hospitals in connexion with the Defence Department. An instance came under my notice recently, and everything I am going to say I can absolutely verify. A young man who had enlisted, and was at Seymour Camp, became ill, supposedly with meningitis, and on Saturday morning he was sent to Melbourne, and conveyed to the Base Hospital in an ambulance. At 3 o'clock in the afternoon a friend of his went to visit him, but there being .no record of the patient's arrival those in charge said they had no knowledge of him. The friend, however, was very persistent, and he was given permission to go through the hospital. From 3 o'clock until 4 o'clock this friend searched the hospital without success, and then he was told that, as there was no record, such a patient could not be there. However, as the friend apparently was not satisfied, he was given permission to look through the quarantine ward, and at half-past 4 o'clock some soldiers who had also come from Seymour that day said there was a young fellow on the verandah. This proved to be the man, and the facts disclosed that, although he had been at the hospital from half-past 12 o'clock, no record of his arrival had been made, and he had been left on the verandah without any attention from doctors or nurses. I can quite understand that the nurses and medical men may be overworked, and that the fault may not be theirs; but, at the same time, I am quite satisfied that there could not possibly be, in any other similar institution, such bungling and maladministration. I do not wish to reflect on any person, more especially as I understood from the officer in charge that the attendants had to work exceedingly long hours; but we know that, without good methods or administration, there is bound to be failure. 6940 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr MASSY-GREENE - The organization is at fault. 6940 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - There is no organization. This young fellow might have been very ill, though I am glad to say he was not suffering from meningitis, and has since recovered. The complaints that have been made show the necessity for the strictest investigation into the methods of the Department regarding hospitals. There is another matter to which I desire to refer, and in regard to which I am sure I shall receive the support of honorable members representing other parts of the Commonwealth. For the past nine months I have repeatedly spoken of the methods adopted by the Postal Department in Western Australia. The administration in the Defence Department is bad enough, but there is no doubt that the administration of the Postal Department, under the present Postmaster-General, is a good deal worse. The Government of Western Australia constructed a railway running through an area of 190 odd miles, and during its construction the State Government carried the mails to the people within that area. As soon, however, as the Railway Commissioner took over the line, the Postmaster-General declined to pay him his charges ; and from that time on, although, I believe, a train has been running daily, it has not carried mail matter in any shape or form, the Postmaster-General having the mails carried by motor cars, which follow the train. Under proper arrangements, the people within this area could receive their letters perhaps once a day, or, at any rate, two or three times a week; whereas now they receive them only about once a fortnight. With a Labour Government in power in nearly every State, the Postmaster-General should be able to bring sufficient pressure to bear on the State Government to compel the Railways Commissioner, if compulsion be necessary, to carry the mails by train, because it is absolutely absurd that one Government should bear the cost of a train, and another Government should have to provide motor cars in order to carry the mails over the same ground. There are several similar instances in Western Australia, and others in South Australia and Queensland; and if some alteration is not made by the time we meet again, I shall move the adjournment of the House in order that the matter may be discussed, because I feel satisfied that I shall have the sympathy and support of honorable members generally. 6940 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON . - I desire to emphasize the remarks made by the honorable member for Moreton, and I hope that the Postmaster-General will give them serious consideration. The officers of the Department, or the officers of the Public Service Commissioner's office, are really setting up a barrier to some of the most faithful men in the Service receiving their just due; and, unless some remedy is found, there will be seething insubordination amongst a big section of the employees. The treatment of these men seems to me to amount to persecution, and it leads to the belief that some of the officers in the Public Service Commissioner's office, or in the Post Office, are trying to rob the men of the result of the arbitration award. If that be so, it is a most unjust and unwarranted proceeding. Question resolved in the affirmative. 6940 17:39:00 House adjourned at 5.39 p.m.