1917-07-26 7 1 0 REPS 514 0 House of Representatives. 1917-07-26 Mr.Speaker took the chair at 9.30 p.m., and read prayers. 514 Questions 514 514 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - I wish to know from the Treasurer how long it is since the Government decided to tax entertainments got up by committees for saying farewell to soldiers going to the war or receiving back men from the Front? 514 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have no knowledge of the matter, but if the honor- . able member will place his question on the notice-paper, I shall be prepared to answer it later. 514 514 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER - Has the Treasurer seen the report in to-day's Age of a debate in- the Legislative Assembly of Western Australia, at Perth yesterday, during which the statement was made that the State has been required by the Commonwealth Treasury to redeem certain Treasury bonds? Does the right honorable gentleman regard this as an act of repudiation, which it is alleged by the ex-Treasurer of Western Australia to be. Is there any understanding concerning the non-payment of these bonds during the war ? 514 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have seen the paragraph referred to. The statement made in the Legislative Assembly of Western Australia was not sufficiently clear, and was not based on facts. The ex-Treasurer of the State in using the word " repudiation " did ' so improperly, and without justification. I cannot understand the use of such an expression by men who have had responsibilities. The Commonwealth has lent about £30,000,000 to the States, and under an agreement about £3,800,000 more should be paid to them by us during the present year. But the difficulties in the way of borrowing money should be' as well known to those who spoke on the subject in the Legislative Assembly of Western Australia as they are to honorable members and to me. The Commonwealth has behaved most generously to the States. It went on to the London market to borrow £7,500,000, and also borrowed £3,000,000 more, with the consent of the British Government, from the War Fund, in order to fulfil its obligations to the States, and to enable their public works to be continued. As I have said, £3,800,000 remains to be paid to the States during this calendar year under the agreement between them and the Commonwealth. When I came into office I discovered that the States had borrowed £18,000,000 from the Commonwealth on the understanding that they would pay the money back within two years, it being thought, no doubt, that the war would then be over. At the end of two years, the period of the loan was extended for another year, which has now nearly expired. The obligation to pay this money is as binding on the States as the obligation to advance them money is binding on the Commonwealth', and a reasonable understanding might be arrived at regarding the two agreements. "A week ago the Treasury telegraphed to the Government of Western Australia, through the Prime Minister, saying that we should do our best to fulfil our promise to advance £3,800,000 more this year, and we hope to find the money to do that. The market is perhaps a little better than it was, but it is not advantageous to go on to the London market for small amounts. Although that telegram was confidential, those to whom it was sent might have prevented the statement which was made about repudiation. 514 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr Higgs - Has money been raised for the States which the Treasurer refuses to pay to them? 514 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - No. We have paid to tie States all. the money borrowed on their behalf. To comply with the letter of the agreement, we must raise a loan of £6,800,000 to repay the £3,000,000 borrowed from the War Fund of the British Government and to provide £3,800,000 more for the States this year. I believe that we shall be able to do that, though there are difficulties in the way. 514 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - I understand that the Treasurer is asking the States to pay up? 514 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - Honorable members have been given all information concerning this matter in the Treasury statements that have been published. I think that the obligation of the States to pay us the money that they have borrowed under the promise to pay it back is as binding as our obligation to advance further money to them. The two agreements should be looked at together, and an understanding should be come to with regard to th'em. lt is my desire to be generous to the States - and that we have been - but we should be treated generously, too. 515 515 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY - Is the Minister for Home and Territories prepared to make a statement concerning the oil finds in Papua ? 515 KCO NAT 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I can make known the general position. Oil' was discovered in Papua about 1911, and in 1913 bores were put down under the advice of an expert. When Dr. Wade took charge in May, 1915, five bores had been put down, and although oil has been obtained from them, they ceased to be used because of the mud that rose with it, and it was thought better to put down other bores. The plant that was used in the first instance was rather small, and the bores too narrow for deep sinking. Two more bores have therefore been put down, and one of the old bores has been redrilled. Of the new bores, No. 6 was commenced in 1915, and No. 7 iri October, 1916. Bore No. 6 is down to a depth' of about 500 feet. 515 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - What is the size of the bore ? 515 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - I forget the size for the moment. The No. 7 bore is wide enough to get down to at least 4,000 feet, and is now down to about 1,700 feet, at a point determined by the geological knowledge of the expert, Dr. Wade. It has been successful in respect of quickness of boring, and the fact that as greater depth is attained there is a comparative absence of mud; and there are other indications that the bore will develop well. The actual cost of No. 7 is about £1 16s. per foot. Case artesian boring in Australia costs about 30s. per foot, and when I remind honorable members of the exceptional conditions in Papuan - the distance from the source of supply, the fact that the boring is done at places where rain falls every day and averages from 150 to 200 inches per annum, that the natives are attacked by pleurisy and pneumonia, that the site is approached through an almost impenetrable jungle, and that it takes several months to make a road to the site from the nearest point at which the vessel touches - 'they will understand that the enterprise is attended with great difficulty. One cannot compare the outlay from 'the beginning of the enterprise because that might run to about £25 per foot, but comparing the actual cost of drilling with the cost of similar work on other fields in Australia, America, and Russia, the result of No. 7 bore is good. Up to the present time there has been an expenditure of about £65,000. The last bore has been put down at a rapid rate, a depth of 300 feet having been reached in the first month. The cost compares favorably with that on other fields, and at present we have about 2,000 gallons of oil, but commercial quantities cannot be touched until we get down to a greater depth. The oil is of first class quality, and compares well with that from Sumatra and other parts of the Dutch East Indies. If the boring is successful the results will be of great advantage to the Commonwealth. 515 JNV 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD - Has the Minister been approached by any person or persons representing private enterprises with a proposition to develop the Papuan oil fields? 515 KCO 0 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - There have been many suggestions from the United Kingdom and other places in regard to allowing private persons to engage in this enterprise, but I have not felt justified in acceding to the suggestions. 515 515 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr ORCHARD - Is the Treasurer aware that under the present law soldiers' pensions are subject to income tax ? If so, will he introduce an amending law to exempt them from taxation ? ' 515 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I believe the House has already been informed that it is the intention of the Government to exempt soldiers' pensions from taxation. A Bill for that purpose will be introduced shortly. 515 515 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if the Standing Orders impose any limit on the length of an answer which a Minister may give to a question, and whether you will allow questioners to ask questions of the same length as some of the answers that have been given this afternoon ? 516 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It seemed to me that the answers referred to were of somewhat unusual length, but the matters to which they related were certainly of very great importance. I would suggest: to Ministers that when a question involves the making of a long statement in reply, it would meet the wishes of the House if they would first obtain leave to make a statement. 516 516 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - Will the Assistant Minister for Defence make inquiries into the remissness of officials at the different camps in giving soldiers their leave too late to allow of them leaving camp? Many receive their leave after the train . has left, or so shortly before the departure of the train that they have no time to catch it. 516 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member's question is very vague. If he will give me specific cases I shall make inquiries. The intention of the Department is that every man entitled to leave shall get. it. 516 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS - When passes are issued at the Seymour Camp, the men sometimes have not the opportunity to catch the train to Melbourne unless they travel by motor car. It would seem that the officials at Seymour are in collusion with the proprietors of the motor cars. Will the Minister look into that specific case? 516 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I shall certainly ask that inquiries be made into the case to which the honorable member has drawn attention. 516 516 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST - Has the Prime Minister read in the press a report of statements made by members of the Council of the Employers Federation in New South Wales in criticism of a Judge of the High Court? Have members of the Council of the Employers Federation greater privileges in that respect than are enjoyed by other members, of the community ? If not, what authority exists for protecting High Court Judges from attacks of this kind ? 516 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I have not seen the report; but I shall look at it, and answer the honorable member later. 516 516 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS - Is the Minister for Home and Territories in a position to give the House the information he promised in regard to the expenditure in the Northern Territory? 516 KCO NAT 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - At the request of the honorable member, I personally prepared a statement on the finances of the Northern Territory, and it has been ready for some time. I thought, however, that I would make two or three additions in regard to agriculture, pastoralism, and mining. I hope to be able to complete the statement next week, and lay it on the table. 516 516 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr SAMPSON - Will the Prime Minister make available the recommendations of the Advisory Council of Science contained in the papers now lying on the Library table? If not, will be explain why the documents are marked " Confidential"? 516 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The papers we're marked " Confidential and Secret," as all similar papers are marked when they are handed to me in the usual way by the Secretaries of Departments. When the Leader of the Opposition asked for the papers, I handed them to him without any alteration of the indorsement. From him they passed on to the Library table with that indorsement, which appears on all official papers. There is nothing confidential or secret about them. They are public property, and may be used as honorable members see fit. I read in the press a criticism in regard to the matter, and I am glad that the honorable member for Wimmera has afforded me an opportunity of explaining that, in an effort to comply with the request of an honorable member, without waiting to remove the red tape, I handed over the papers in the state in which I received them. For that I have been condemned. 516 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I wish to know whether the papers are now available, or whether the embargo that any honorable member who wished to peruse them must give his word of honour not to communicate any of the contents to the press still remains on them. 517 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I have not seen the papers. I handed them over as they were handed to me. I have tried to explain how it came about that the words "Secret and Confidential" appeared on them. They were on them when they were handed to me, and every honorable member who has held Ministerial office knows that papers are usually so marked when sent to me by departmental chiefs. No doubt the Librarian, on seeing that inscription upon them, was quite right in demanding from any honorable member that the documents should be read with the qualification to which the Leader of the Opposition has referred. I know of no reason why the contents should not be published, but I confess that I have not seen the papers and cannot express any opinion until honorable members give me a few moments in which to peruse them. 517 517 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE - I have received the following telegram from the Queensland Recruiting Committee: - Committee instruct me to state that the cost of recruiting in New South Wales, as given in the House yesterday, was totally wrong and misleading. The Queensland figures given include salaries, recruiting employees, office expenses, travelling allowances, rail, steamer, and coach fares of recruiting employees and recruits, also recruits' meals, medical examinations, printing, stationery, advertising, and all the other many contingencies. The New South Wales figures as given cannot possibly cover all these items. Will you please correct. Will the Honorary Minister inform the House whether the figures that he gave yesterday in regard to the cost of recruiting in the different States were correct? 517 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The figures given by me in answer to the question submitted by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie were supplied by the officials of the Department. The honorable member for Moreton has already handed me a copy of the telegram in which my figures are criticised, and I shall have the matter inquired into in order to see whether the statements made are in any way accurate. 517 517 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE - Can the Prime Minister tell me why Mr. P. J. Brookfield, the member for Sturt in the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales, has been prosecuted for an alleged offence in March last, and why such a long period was allowed to elapse before the prosecution was instituted ? I would like to know, also, whether the Prime Minister is aware that the repeated prosecutions of Mr. Brookfield have created an impression among the workers of Broken Hill that he is being treated very unfairly, in fact persecuted, and that this feeling has grown to such an extent that there has been a total cessation of work in Broken Hill to-day as a protest against the prosecutions ? 517 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Until I saw a paragraph in the press this morning I was not aware that Mr. Brookfield had been prosecuted. I confess that as a citizen I frequently wondered why he had not been prosecuted, but as Attorney-General of the Commonwealth I was not officially aware of the fact that he had been. Probably the prosecution referred to is being dealt with by the State magistrates. It may even be that the offence is against a State law. If that is so, the more credit falls on the State law and the greater criticism descends on the Commonwealth law and the Department over which I have the honour to preside. I am not aware that Mr. Brookfield has been treated unjustly. If he has been treated so, he shall have justice. He deserves justice, but he certainly does not deserve mercy. He will have what the law gives him, but no more. I am not surprised to learn that the men at Broken Hill have ceased work; I should be surprised to learn that they work for any length of time continuously. I am aware that they have threatened to do certain things. I am perfectly aware that it is their practice to do so, and I am sure that when the honorable member for Barrier has been a little longer in this Parliament he will learn that the rumblings which disturb him so greatly affect us not at all. 517 517 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY - Last year the Treasury undertook to pay the salaries of officers in the Public Service in regular fortnightly payments, but since then there has been a considerable hitch. I understand that the Treasurer has appointed a Board to overcome the difficulties raised in the case of the Postmaster-General's Department, and I would like to know from the right honorable gentleman whether he has in his mind any probable date by which his Department will be able to keep its promise? 518 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have not heard lately the progress that has been made. I may say that the desire is to meet the wishes expressed by the honorable member, and I am hopeful that the difficulties that have arisen will be overcome; i? the honorable member will place his question on the notice-paper for "Wednesday next it will give me time to supply him with full information on the matter. 518 518 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON -I desire to ask the Minister representing the Minister for Defence whether he will have very distinct instructions sent direct to area officers and others controlling the ' training of cadets in order that parents may be relieved from harassing notices. I have here a third notice which has been addressed to a lad, the father and mother of whom told the officers concerned, months ago, that he was dead. - This last notice was received only the other day, and threatened the lad with prosecution if he did not make good his drills. Such notices are both harassing and hurtful to parents, and I ask the Minister to see that officers are instructed to exercise greater care in this respect. 518 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The honorable member asks that because of this specific case a general instruction Should be issued 'to all area officers throughout the Commonwealth. Definite instructions are given as to the procedure to be adopted, but the honorable member must recognise that individuals sometimes fail to accurately carry out the directions received. If the honorable member will supply me with the particulars of the specific case to which he has referred, I shall be glad to make it the subject of special inquiry. 518 Purchase of Land at Sydney. - Board of Control. 518 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Will the Treasurer state whether it is true that the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank has recently purchased, at a cost of £70,000, a block of land adjoining the bank's present premises in Sydney ? 518 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I have no knowledge of the matter. 518 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - Last session, and early in the present session, I asked the Treasurer whether he would give consideration to the desirableness of appointing a Board to control the Commonwealth Bank. Will the right honorable gentleman state whether he has considered the question, and if so, with what result ? 518 KFJ 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I forget for the moment the answer that I made to the honorable member's question on a. previous occasion, but if it was that the matter would be considered, I can only say again that it will be considered. 518 518 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON - It is announced in the press that the Imperial Government have appointed a Select Committee to inquire into the medical inspection .of recruits for the army. Will the Minister representing the Minister for Defence see that" copies of the report of that Committee are made available to members of this Parliament? 518 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - I shall look into the matter and see what can be done. 518 518 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - I desire to ask the Minister for Trade and Customs whether he is aware, and if so, whether it is by his direction, that the Postmaster-General's Department is demanding duty - in some cases up to 12s. per catalogue - on illustrated circulars sent through the post by English houses to Australian citizens ? 518 KK9 NAT 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - I shall make inquiries and will endeavour to supply the honorable member with an answer to his question to-morrow. 518 518 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - Is the Treasurer aware that income tax forms are not available at the different post offices throughout the Commonwealth, and will he see that they are, as many applicants for them are being disappointed ? 518 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - I am not aware that they are not available, and will take steps to have them provided. 519 519 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether he is aware that, though thousands of cases of apples, bought by middlemen and speculators, are deteriorating in cold storage, the public in the suburbs of Melbourne have to pay6d. a pound for apples? Is. he aware that such a limited number of cases of apples from cold storage are unloaded, on the market in Melbourne that prices range from8s. to 14s. per case for apples bought by speculators and middlemen at from 3s. to 4s. per case? In view of the plenary powers possessed by the Government under the War Precautions Act, what does the Government propose to> do to protect the general public throughout Australia from extortionate prices charged for apples and other foodstuffs? 519 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - It is known that, in accordance with custom extending over many years, considerable quantities of apples are held in cold storage, but there is no available evidence as to ownership. The price of apples is above the average this season, owing to a shortage in the crop. 3.. The Government will use its powers to protect the general public from exploitation. The interests of the producers, on the other hand, must also bc considered. ' 519 519 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice - On what sites in or around Melbourne is it proposed to erect a Commonwealth Serum Institute? What is the reason that the Government have decided not to erect the institute at the Federal Territory? For what purpose does the Government propose to utilize the 900 square miles of lond acquired as Federal Territory? 519 KCO NAT 1 0 GLYNN, Patrick Mr GLYNN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - On an area adjacent to the Lymph Dep6t at the Royal Park, Melbourne. I am advised by my colleague, the Minister for Trade and Customs, whose Department has dealt with the matter, that there are special reasons why an institution dealing with scientific work of this particular nature should be placed near a large centre of population. For the purposes intended when, in accordance with the Acts passed, the Commonwealth acquired the Territory. They include the building of the Federal Capital, and the settlement of the area acquired. 519 control. - Supply of Iron and Steel Plates. 519 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Who will be in control of the construction of the proposed cargo vessels ? If such Controller has been selected, has he had experience in the building of merchant vessels? Will such construction be divided amongst the States? 519 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to. the honorable member's questions are as follow : - It has not yet been decided. See No. 1. Yes; as far as possible. Mr. PAGE (for Dr. Maloney) asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Are any plates being rolled at the Broken Hill Company's iron and steel works, Newcastle, and, if so, what are their measurements? Are they large enough to use in the building of ships? 519 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Arrangements are being made by which it is believed that plates suitable for shipbuilding will be available. 519 519 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Treasurer, upon, notice - On what date does he propose to introduce a Bill for an Act to impose a tax upon profits? 519 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - As soon as the War-time Profits Tax Assessment Bill is passed, I propose to move in Committee of Ways and Means for the imposition of the tax, and to introduce the necessary Bill. 519 519 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - . In view of the fact that more than twelve months have elapsed since £2,068,000 was expended on Government . steam-ships, will the Prime Minister explain the cause of the delay in the introduction of a Bill to legalize the said expenditure? 519 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I refer the honorable member to my reply to his previous question on this subject. 520 Punishment for Neglecting to Salute. - Men in Maribyrnong Camp. 520 KXO 0 0 PAGE, James Mr PAGE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice - What penalty is inflicted on a private soldier who neglects to salute an officer? Is any penalty inflicted on an officer who fails to return the salute of a private? By whom would such a charge against an officer be laid? 520 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - A soldier would probably be admonished. The officer would probably be reprimanded. By the officer's commanding officer. The private would be able to lay a complaint against the officer through his commanding officer. 520 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice - Will he state what is the number of members of the A.I.F. at present in the military camp at Maribyrnong? How many men have been in this camp for three months and under? Will he state how many men have been in this camp up to from four to twelve months and upwards? Will those men who have been the longest time in training be included in the next batch to be sent to the front? 520 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - 1,209. 352. 856. Yes. 520 520 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether he has received any official intimation of the appointment of a special Commission by the Imperial Government to inquire into the possibilities of cotton-growing within the Empire? Whether he will advise the Imperial authorities of the special advantages possessed by Australia for cotton culture? Whether he will invite the Commission, when appointed, to visit Australia, so that full inquiries may be made into the question? Whether the sum of £500, which was set aside for this purpose in 1912 by the Fisher Government, is still available, and will it be utilized in advancing the interests of Australia in regard to cotton-growing? 520 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - 1, 2, and 3. The British Board of Trade proposes to appoint a special committee to consider the question of increasing the supply of cotton in the Empire. The Government has asked the High Commissioner to act as its representative on the Committee. I have asked him to keep the Government fully advised in regard to the matter. In 1913 the Commonwealth Government agreed to contribute £500 a year for three years towards the cost of a cotton expert who was to be attached to the Queensland Agricultural Department, on the understanding that the expert advice of the specialist was to be available . for the Northern Territory. No such appointment has been made, and the amount has not been placed on this year's Estimates. The Science Council has been granted a sum of money to inquire into the possibilities of cotton-growing in Australia. The matter is now being taken in hand. 520 520 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Is he aware that Mr. Justice Higgins, in the recent Postal Electricians' case heard in the Arbitration Court, expressed the opinion that the administrative act of Mr. Fisher, postponing the appointments, till six months after the war, of those junior mechanics and mechanics who had passed the examinations and were awaiting appointments, was illegal and contrary to the regulations ? Will he therefore take the earliest opportunity of rectifying the injustice done by giving these men their rightful appointments? What is the object of the Department in not permanently transferring those officers who passed the mechanics' examination and who are now acting satisfactorily as mechanics? Is the Minister aware that these officers, whilst acting as mechanics, are deprived of their annual increments? 520 KXK NAT 1 0 WEBSTER, William Mr WEBSTER - Inquiries are being made, and replies will be furnished as early as possible. 520 520 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - In reference to a statement made by him at Bendigo on the 27th of March last, concerning the Tariff, viz., " It is the intention of the Government to develop Australian production and industry, and to proceed with such amendments of the present Tariff as may be necessary to attain this end." - When does the Government intend to proceed with the said amendments? 521 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The policy of the Government in regard to alterations of the Tariff has already been declared. 521 521 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether it is the intention of the Government to take any action in the near future in the direction of securing a reduction in the abnormally high prices now being charged the general public for meat and other foodstuffs? If any such action is contemplated, will the Prime Minister state when and by what means the Government intends to remedy this evil? 521 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - It is practically impossible to fix the price of meat unless the price of live stock is also fixed. The interests of the community will in this respect be most carefully safeguarded by the Government. 521 521 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr McWILLIAMS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Is he aware that the selling price of sugar in New Zealand by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, prior to 2nd instant, was as follows: - Brewers' crystals, £21 2s. 6d. per ton; No. 1 and 1a, £20 2s.6d. per ton ; No. 2, £19 12s. 6d. per ton; No. 3, £18 12s. 6d. per ton? That on 2nd instant the price was raised £1 per ton? That the company's price of Australian sugar in Australia is about £8 per ton in excess of the price charged by the said company in New Zealand? 521 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Yes. The sugar used in New Zealand is duty free, and is produced by black labour in Fiji. 521 521 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - Whether he will cause a return to be prepared and laid on the table of the House showing The number of prosecutions under the provisions of the War Precautions Acts and Regulations for offences under Regulations 28, 28a, 28aa, 28b, 28c, and 28d? The name and address of each defendant. The name of the person authorizing such prosecution in terms of section 6, sub-section 3A, War Precautions Act 1914-16. The result of each such prosecution, setting forth - Whether the defendant was convicted or acquitted. If convicted, what penalty was imposed, and whether he was bound under section 8, War Precautions Act 1914-16. Whether the fine (if any) was paid or whether imprisonment was suffered. Nature and . description of the offence charged, with full particulars of words or statements alleged to have been made, reports alleged to have been spread, and particulars of written articles, sufficient for identification, not submitted to the censor. If defendant was charged with making statements or spreading reports likely to prejudice recruiting, particulars of circumstances under which the statements were made, or reports spread? 521 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Yes. 521 521 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - In reference to his statement of the 16th of March last, to the effect that the Government had resolved to prohibit the importation of luxuries into Australia, when does he propose to prohibit the said luxuries? 521 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - As already stated by me, in reply to a question by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, this matter is receiving the most serious consideration of the Government. It is most complex, and is full of difficulties. I hope to be able to make a further statement shortly. 521 521 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice - Whether he is aware that at the last meeting of the Broken Hill City Council a motion was carried requesting the member for the Barrier to urge upon the Minister for Defence " the advisability of bringing into operation Saturday morning drill for our trainees under defence scheme, in lieu of the existing evening and Saturday afternoon drill."? Will the Minister seriously consider the matter, with a view of taking action in the manner indicated ? If not, will the Minister state the reasons for refusing to make the desired alterations? 522 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - No. This matter is now under consideration of the Government. See answer to No. 2. 522 522 KRN 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whether any precautions aTe being taken to guard against an outbreak of bubonic plague supervening on the present plague of mice and rats in Australia? 522 KK9 NAT 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr JENSEN - The responsibilities of the Commonwealth in this regard are limited to guarding against the introduction of plague from overseas. The precautions against such introduction are continuously and rigorously taken under the Quarantine Act. Any dangers likely to arise from the plague of mice is a matter for State control. 522 522 KRN 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether any arrangement has been made to secure bags for next season's 'harvest of wheat and maize? 522 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - Arrangements are being made. 522 Cost of Construction 522 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice - When will the inquiry into the cost of construction of the east-west railway, promised to the House by the Prime Minister on the 14th of February last, and recorded in Hansard on page 10512, vol. lxxxi, be put in operation? 522 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - In February last the Joint Committee of Public Accounts intimated to the Department their intention of inquiring into the expenditure incurred in connexion with the east-west railway, but they did not proceed with the investigation prior to the general election, which took place shortly after. The Public Accounts Committeefor this Parliament has not yet been elected. 522 Reports on Securities. 522 KRN 0 0 SINCLAIR, Hugh Mr SINCLAIR asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Whether any one, in addition to the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, inspects or reports on securities offered by clients negotiating loans from the bank? 522 KFJ PROT; WAP from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST - The Act places the responsibility on the Governor alone, and it is not known in the Treasury what methods are employed by 'him in the cases referred to. 522 miscellaneous The following paper was presented : - Defence Act. - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 149, 150, 151, 157 522 Questions 522 522 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON A s a matter of privilege, I should like to ask, Mr. Speaker, whether some arrangements cannot be made by which honorable members may be supplied with copies of the replies to their questions on notice, in stead of them having to wait until next day in order to obtain them from the Hansard record ? 522 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER I understand that i t is usual for an honorable member, if he .so desires, to receive typewritten answers to the questions he asks. 522 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES Ther e is very musfo in what the honorable .member for "Brisbane says. It is a waste of time for Ministers tq read the answers to the questions on notice. Hardly anybody can hear what the answers are, and i t would be very much better if , when questions were called on, the replies were handed to honorable members, who could then obtain the information they require without wasting the time of the House by having i t read. 522 budget 522 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir JOHN FORREST — I have to in form honorable members that, owing to various causes, I shall not be able to make the Budget statement on the 1st August as arranged. I propose, however, to deliver it on -the 8th of 'the month. 523 miscellaneous The following Sessional Committees were appointed (on motion by Mr. Hughes), three to form a quorum: - Standing Orders Committee. Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister, The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Charlton, Mr. Fowler, Mr. Poynton, and Mr. Tudor. Library Committee. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Anstey, Mr. Archibald, Mr. Glynn, Mr. Higgs, Sir William Irvine, Mr.McDonald, Mr. Bruce Smith, and Mr. Wise. House Committee. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Richard Foster, Mr. Livingston, Mr. Mathews, Mr. Page, Mr. Rodgers, Mr. Laird Smith, and Mr. Watkins. Printing Committee. Mr. Bamford, Mr. Fenton, Mr. McWilliams, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Riley, Mr. Sampson, and Mr. West. 523 supply 523 Question—That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair, and that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply— proposed. 523 KYV South Sydney 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY .- I have received several complaints from people who have sons at the Front, and one of those complaints is very serious. A lady in my electorate had. two sons on service, one of whom was killed and the other sent home wounded. She received information from the Defence Department that she had to apply for the deferred pay in respect of the son who was killed. She filled in the necessary papers; but, after all the arrangements had been made, an order came to her from the Treasury or the Defence Department to the effect that from the amount due there would have to be deducted £18. I have in my possession two letters, one from the sergeant-major of the company, and the other from the lieutenaut in charge, giving the soldier a splendid character, and speaking generally in the highest terms of him. The amount deducted is for fines, and the mother is quite at a loss to know what these fines can be for. I made inquiry at the barracks, and was informed that since the present Government came into power, the policy of the Department has been altered. Previously when a soldier was killed, any fines there might be against him were wiped out by the fact of his death. 523 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Ernest Mr Groom . - Who told you the policy had been altered ? 523 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY The gentleman in charge told me that under the present policy any fines may be deducted from amounts due. This I regard as disgraceful. The poor woman has lost a son who was her support, and it is necessary that attention should be called to her treatment in the matter of the deferred pay, though I regret the fact, because I know that such occurrences will not encourage recruiting. I made some further inquiries as to what these fines are inflicted for, and I find that if a man loses his rifle he is called upon to pay a certain amount. It stands to. reason, however, that if a man is killed in action he cannot come back with his rifle; and yet i t appears that in such a case a fine of £6 is imposed. Clearly there should be some arrangement made whereby,, in the case of a man killed in action such fine shall be remitted. There is another little matter to which I should like to call attention. We have provided that if a woman loses her son at the war, she shall receive a pension of £1 per week; but if that woman happens to be in receipt cf an old-age pension, she is, on that account, paid only 7s. 6d. a .week by the Treasury. It was understood that the policy of the Government was to so amend the law as to allow persons under these circumstances to receive the f u l l pension. 523 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - If she got the full military pension, the old-age pension would be cancelled. 523 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY I wish to alter tihat. She should get both pensions in f u l l , because of he sacrifice she has made. The New Zealand Government has not been cheese-paring in this way, and allows a woman who has lost a son to receive the f u l l old-age pension and the f u l l military pension as well. Another matter I wish to bring under the notice of the Minister is the fact that instructional staff sergeants-major are receiving less pay than corporals who have volunteered to go to the Front. This creates discontent, and i t does not seem' ight that instructors should be paid less than the men .whom they are drilling. 524 JWO Cook 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS .- I move - That all the words after the word " That " be struck out, with a view to the insertion of words to cause the motion to read as follows : - " That a Royal Commission be. appointed to investigate and report upon the publication, issue, distribution, and financing of the Critchley Parker election pamphlets." Every honorable member is aware that during the last Commonwealth election the country was literally flooded with pamphlets and other printed matter of a sectarian character, all issued over the name of Critchley Parker, at 376 Flinders-lane, Melbourne. The price of printing paper has increased greatly of late. The newspaper proprietors of Australia, notwithstanding their immense resources, are complaining of this increase in price, and are finding it necessary to place a restriction on their issues; but during the last) election no restriction was placed on the issue of the kind of literature to which I am drawing attention, which strewed the Commonwealth almost knee-deep. There was widespread circulation in every State, showing that powerful organization was behind it. It must have cost an immense amount of money to distribute that literature. Where did the money come from ? 524 KES 0 0 FALKINER, Franc Mr Falkiner .—Perhap s from the unions. 524 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS The honorable member is associated with the Pastoralists Union, and,, therefore, no doubt gives a correct answer so far as one union is concerned. It is time that an inquiry was made into this unmeasured distribution of sectarian . election literature. We should know the forces at work, and we should know what advantages they are to reap 'from their huge expenditure, what favours they are to get from the Government which has succeeded because of i t . If the Pastoralists Union provided the necessary money, that fact,. no doubt, is" related to the exemption of the pastoral industry from taxation under the War Profits Bill. The matter should be subject to searching inquiry. The putting out of this literature has done an immense amount of harm by causing feuds and dissensions. We were told i t was the highest aim of this so-called National Government to unite all sections of the community for the great tasks with which we are confronted. 524 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - The National Government had nothing to do with Mr. Critchley Parker. 524 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS —Le t us have an inquiry into that. 524 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - Why do you not make an inquiry, and pay for ib? 524 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS It is beyond the means of any member of this House to institute such an inquiry. Only an authority clothed with power to call witnesses before i t , and to compel them to give evidence, can properly institute such an inquiry. I shall "not deal with t,hi3 literature in detail; there is too much of i t ito make that possible in the time available. I have here a sheet upon which is depicted a. priest, holding a waddy in his hand, and before him on the floor is an Irishman, bound hand and foot. The priest is telling the Irishman that if he does not vote as he is told he will neither marry nor bury him. Alongside is printed this statement— Arrayed on the one side you have the Roman Catholic Church, the Sinn Feiners, the Industrial Workers of the World, and the pro-Germans, and on the other the rest of the community. There is also a picture of a shamrock, with the words— Under this emblem conscription was killed, and the name of Australia dragged in the dirt. On another sheet is a picture of a Protestant minister standing in the pulpit, and admonishing his hearers to— Think of Eternity, and vote for the National party. The statement is also published that— Tlie Caucus party, led by Mr. Tudor, has a big proportion of the Catholic vote assured to i t ; that that means 631,444 votes, of which all but a small exception will be cast against England and the National party. Don't stop to listen to any other reason. That is what is going to happen. Another cartoon shows a large snake curled up, with its fangs showing, and objectionable epithets issuing form its mouth. On an opposite page is an Australian workman, as it is alleged the Roman Catholic Church would have him—tha t is, carrying a priest on his shoulders. Another picture shows, a priest using a battering ram against the door of Parliament. I hold in my hand a sheet the size of an ordinary newspaper, of which there were several issues. This issue is dated 19th April, and is marked No. 2. Such sheets were distributed ad lib. to the community and an immense amount of money must have been spent on their distribution. Here is another quote— The election suggests an invasion of Australia. We are threatened by the foreigner. Rome has come among us and put our own people against us. Ireland gloats over the strife and dissension wliich the Roman Catholic Church has raised here through her agents. Another cartoon shows Australia dressed as a woman, and carrying the British flag, an Australian soldier in uniform with the word " Volunteer " printed on him, and the third person in the picture is a priest. The soldier is saying to Australia, " I am ready to go, but what about him," pointing to the priest. The cartoon practically calls upon one section of the community to refuse to go to the war while priests are left in Australia. No literature that has been issued in this county could have had a worse effect upon recruiting than this to which I am drawing attention. Why has Mr. Critchley Parker not been proceeded against? Why has not the War Precautions Act been put into operation agains him? These cartoons were used during the New South Wales State election, then during the Commonwealth election last May, and now that a bye-election is taking place in New South Wales, they are being distributed about Dubbo and Macquarie with the words printed on them, "Vote for McLeod and be Loyal." I produce a sample for inspection. McLeod is the Nationalist candidate for the Macquarie seat in the State Legislature. So that, in spite of all protests and assurances from the Government that this literature is damaging to National harmony, i t is still being issued broadcast. This sort of thing has continued for months, and it appears as if in this time of war persons are to be allowed to divide the community on the sectarian issue without any action being taken. I have no desire to interfere in any religious matter. These pamphlets have no religious object. They ar« political only, and party political at that. To illustrate the view taken by the Catholic members of the community, I quote the following resolution passed by the Golden Grove branch of the Catholic Federation of New South Wales:— That the members of this branch protest in the name of the Catholics of this district against the issue and distribution of certain pamphlets over the name of Critchley Parker. They are a cause of discord, and, in effect, prejudicial to recruiting. Hence we instruct our honorary secretary to write to our Federal representative and request that he will ventilate the matter on the floor of the House, and have a regulation introduced under the War Precautions Act to prohibit the issue and circulation of those and like pamphlets. The War Precautions Act 1914 provides that the Governor-General may make regulations, inter alia, '' To prevent the spread of false reports, or reports likely to cause disaffection to His Majesty, or public alarm, or to interfere with the success of His Majesty's Forces by land or sea." . War Precautions Regulation No. 28 made thereunder provides that no person by word of mouth, in writing, or in any newspaper, periodical, book circular or other printed publication shall spread false reports, or make false statements likely to prejudice recruiting. War Precautions Regulation No. 28a gives power to the censor to require the editor or printer of any newspaper or periodical to submit, before publication, matter which relates or refers to the present war, or any subject connected therewith or arising therefrom, or publications which would be an offence under Regulation 28 above mentioned. War Precautions Regulation No. 43 provides that " If any person attempts to cause mutiny, sedition, or disaffection among any of His Majesty's Forces, or tiie civilian population, lie shall be guilty ©f an offence against 'the Act . " Several prosecutions have taken place under this Act, but for some reason Critchley Parker escapes. He is a greater offender than those against whom the law has been put into operation. The matter was brought under the notice of the Government by the postal officers of New South Wales. The letter carriers' organization, finding that literature of this kind was being distributed through them, and that people were raising objections, made a protest to the Postmaster-General, and asked that the issue of sectarian pamphlets through the channel of the Post Office, and per medium of the letter carriers, which was insulting to many of them, should be prohibited, but the Government absolutely refused to take any such action. 526 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - As a matter of fact, the Post and Telegraph Act prohibits the transmission of scurrilous and offensive matter of that kind. 526 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS The honorable member is correct. There is a provision in the Post and Telegraph Act which prohibits the transmission of literature of this description through the post. There is a little paper connected with the Industrial Workers of the World, and called Direct Action. The Government have found that they have power to suppress that journal, and have taken action against i t . A great deal is said about the Industrial Workers of the World and Direct Action. I disagree from that organization and everything connected with it, but in reality its propaganda is a- very tiny affair when compared with the" issue of these pamphlets by Critchley Parker. Apparently it is part of the programme of the present Government to magnify the Industrial Workers of the World as much as possible, in order to make out that they are fighting a dangerous .giant. But, as a matter of fact, i t is not of anything like the proportions that might be inferred from the exaggerated statements that we hear concerning i t . 526 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - The general secretary of the Australian Workers Union admits that the Industrial Workers of the World is 'a very dangerous organization. 526 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS t is unfortunately true that a few members of the Industrial Workers of the World have found their way into the unions, and, in sparsely attended meetings, are exercising an influence altogether disproportionate to their number. They are undoubtedly causing a great deal of trouble and • dissension in Australia. But whilst action can be taken by the Government against this little double foolscap paper, issued by a few recalcitrant workmen, most of whom have come from Great Britain, we are told that no action can be taken to suppress the objectionable literature of Critchley Parker and the Mining Standard, which appears to be supported by some of the wealthy classes of this country. The honorable member for Wentworth interjects about Archbishop Mannix. That gentleman has made some statements which have been seized upon, and a great deal of publicity has been given to him. But Dr. Long, the Anglican Bishop of Bathurst,' New South Wales, said deliberately, when I was. in charge of the recruiting campaign in that State, that he would refuse to allow ecclesiastical students belonging to his church to enlist. 526 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - Are you sure that he did not say he would refuse to allow them to become combatants? 526 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS I am not under any misapprehension about the matter at all. As a matter of fact-, several authorities' of the Anglican Church have taken steps to prevent ecclesiastical students enlisting with the Forces, I am not making any attack upon Bishop Long particularly, but if any action at all. is to be taken in this matter, let it. be taken against all persons alike. The figures relating to recruiting show that the Roman Catholic section of. the community does not compare unfavorably with any other religious denomination in respect of its representation in the fighting Forces of Australia. Figures regarding denominational representation in the Expeditionary Forces were published b" Colonel Gerald Campbell in the Sydney .daily press, about a month ago. I have not the particulars with me, but the figures for the Roman Catholic section of the community, compared to adherents, were greater than those for the Methodist section, to which I belong. I know that in my own electorate very many Roman Catholic families are represented in the firing line by a considerable proportion of their numbers. 527 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr Bruce Smith Ther e are some figures iu the paper you are reading which show the opposite to be the case. I think the utterances of Dr. Mannix deserve all they get. 527 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS I am making no apology for Dr. Mannix or anybody else. The honorable member seems to have made a study of the Parker pamphlets and accepted their authority in preference to Colonel Gerald Campbell. I think that attention ought to be called to the. fact that Mr. Mahon, who was a Minister in the last Labour Government, has associated the previous Cabinet with the issue -of these 'election pamphlets The following statement was telegraphed from Western Australia to the Sydne press on the 27th April, 1917.:— Mr. Mahon, M.H.R., who acted as Attorney-General during Mr. Hughes' absence in England, said— I observe that Mr. Hughes repudiate the above sectarian production, but he cannot disavow close .personal intimacy with its author, Critchley Porker. Ever since Mr. Hughes .became Leader of the Government, Critchley Parker has had frf>e entry to the Prime Minister's office. Further, the power and authority of the Federal Government have been used by Mr. Hughes to safeguard Critchley Parker's .private interests. Prior to Mr. Hughes' departure for England he became aware that Parker was threatened with an action for libel 'hy a powerful American company, supposed to be dominated by -German shareholders. Mr. Hughes directed that a regulation should be prepared under the 'War Precautions Act providing, amongst other things, that no action should be proceeded with during the' currency of the war in such cases as Parker's without the written consent of the Attorney-General. 1 refrain from disclosing the reception thia move had, but i t was subsequently passed by the Federal Executive, and is now law. Parker was waiting in the ante-room on the day Cabinet considered the regulation, and was seemingly very much relieved when informed that the Hughes regulation had been passed, and that the law action threatened against him would be stopped by Government authority. These facts are on the public records. Critchley Parker issued the same kind of literature during the conscription campaign, but Mr. Hughes did not repudiate it. I do not associate the Prime Minister with these pamphlets. I know nothing about them. But here is the statement made by a gentleman who was acting as Attorney-General for the Prime Minister. 527 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Why not read the Prime Minister's reply? 527 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS I have not got it, or I would read it. 527 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - The honorable member is aware that the Prime Minister, who is attacked in that statement, was absent from Australia when the regulation was made. 527 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS What Mr. Mahon says is that the Prime Minister set this propaganda going before he went away, but, because of some delays, the matter did not come before the Executive Council until he had left Australia. 527 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - The Prime Minister deliberately contradicted that. 527 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS t is only fair to say that the Prime Minister repudiates any connexion with this literature whatsoever. I have no doubt his reply to Mr. Mahon will be quoted 'by members ou the Government side. 527 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Critchley Parker got £600 out of the Commonwealth Government for some printing. 527 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS Senator Needham, in another place, asked the Government a series of questions in regard to 'other publications by Critchley Parker which are subsidized Try the Government. On 13th July, Hansard page 159 it is admitted by the Leader of the Government in the Senate, that a publication containing 535 pages, entitled The Manual of Emergency Legislation Comprising AM Acts of Parliament, Regulations, Proclamations, Orders, Ac, Relating to and Made in Consequence of the War, was issued by Critchley Parker and the Government jointly. It bears the name and arms of the Commonwealth of Australia, is certified as " published by authority," carries the imprint of Critchley Parker, and is published at 7s. 6d. • There is another publication bearing the arms of the Commonwealth Gazette, published at 5s., which also bears the imprint of Critchley Parker. Tn answer to another question submitted in the Senate, i t was admitted that there is at present in the hands of the printer a publication compiled by Critchley Parker, which is to be issued under the authority of the Commonwealth. All this shows that Mr. Critchley Parker is in very favorable relationship with the Government, and that the Government is in a kind of partnership with him in regard to the issue of certain literature dealing with war-time legislation. The Government is at present patronizing the greatest enemy to recruiting in Australia. A few days ago i t was stated in the Senate by Senator Pearce that some of the literature referred to in the amendment was issued in Western Australia by the Labour organizations, and the honorable member for Wentworth has said in this chamber that it was issued by Labour organizations somewhere. 528 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - I was merely repeating a statement made by Dr. Mannix in Melbourne. Surely he ought to know. 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS If the honorable member refers to New South Wales, I can give his statement an emphatic denial, as the one who was in charge of the Labour campaign in that State. Certainly the Labour organizations there had absolutely no association -whatever with the issue of these pamphlets. If any Labour organization in any State was associated with the issue of such literature i t should be exposed. I should like to see the matter thoroughly ventilated and in-vestigated 528 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - You are aware that Dr. Mannix complimented the Labour organizations on issuing this literature. 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS I am not interested so much in what the reverend gentleman said as the honorable member appears to be. I have more to do in looking after the interests of my constituents. If we can ascertain by means of a Royal Commission what it cost to issue this vast amount of literature, in whose interest it was issued, who paid for i t , and where the money came from, i t will be work well worth doing. We ought to know if there is a force at work in this country which by the expenditure of large sums of money on elections expects to get some quid pro quo in return. There is a suspicion in the minds of the public that such is the case, and therefore the matter ought to be investigated. In addition to the matter of these pamphlets, the huge sums of money spent during the recent elections ought to be investigated. The people want to know in whose interests this large amount of money was put up. 528 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - On whose side was it put up? 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS On the honorable member's side. An officer receiving £1,500 per annum was taken out of the Tourists' Bureau in New South Wales and put in charge of organization work at a salary of £2,000 per annum for five years. We saw full-page advertisements appearing in the newspapers day after day. We ascertained that the cost of these advertisements ranged from £50 to £200 per issue. 528 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Were they issued by Mr. Critchley Parker? 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS No ; but i t only shows that the country was deluged with money during the last election, and the people ought to know where this money came from, and the purpose for which i t was expended. 528 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - The honorable member is slandering his own supporters by saying that they were bought with our money. 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS I have said nothing of the kind. The honorable member knows that the whole scheme of the Commonwealth electoral legislation was framed with a view to preventing the corruption of the electors by the expenditure of large sums of money. Each honorable member returned to this House is called upon to submit a return showing that he has not spent more than £100 on his election. 528 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann The provision is absolutely farcical. 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS The honorable member knows perfectly well that the cost of the election of honorable members on his side of the House would probably run to £10,000 each. 528 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Will not the honorable member take off £1,000 ? 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS No . There were about fifty National candidates elected, and there was at least £500,000 spent, on the elections. It is just about time the public had some means of finding out where this money came from, and the extent- of the expenditure. 528 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - The amendment will not cover the point to which the honorable member is now alluding 528 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H CATTS t will cover a portion of i t , and may give a clue to the source and direction of the main body of election expenditure. I ask all sides of the' House to join in carrying the amendment. I hope that there will be no effort to side-track i t . . There are means of sidestepping this matter by moving the adjournment of the debate and using the majority of the Government to stifle discussion on i t , and to prevent any vote being taken. I want the people to understand that if the representatives of the Government move for the purpose of adjourning this debate, knowing perfectly well that the question will be put at the bottom of the business paper, and be crowded out by a long list of Government business, which will prevent i t ever coming up for discussion again, they will be just as much voting against the proposal for the Royal Commission as if they voted straight oub against i t on a division in the House this afternoon. Let the people of Australia watch this matter closely. Some honorable members opposite have protested that they desire that there shall be an investigation into this matter. The honorable member for Hume indicated some weeks ago that there should be an inquiry into it, and I claim his vote for a Royal Commission, to probe the matter to the bottom. We shall see how he votes. This is surely a time when we should avoid raising the sectarian issue. If this issue is to be raised, and is to be made a bone of contention in Australia at elections, what will be the position of our soldiers at the Front? Roman Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians and .adherents of the Church of England are fighting side by side. They are comrades in arms, and suffer and die together. If the people of Australia are to be divided on sectarian lines by this literature, there will • be the same division among the soldiers in the trenches, making their lives absolutely unbearable, 'just at a time when there ought to be brotherhood in arms and the best! of good feeling among them. Surely nothing should be done at this time to divide the people of this country ! Not only has this bone of contention prejudiced recruiting in the past; i t is also doing i t now, and the Government would be well advised if they would give this meed of justice to the Roman Catholic community, who have been slandered outrageously by the issue of this literature. They will also do much to bring about that unity and concord in the community they say they desire to see established if they will grant a Royal Commission to probe this matter to the bottom, and allow the people to see that the great parties who control the destinies of Australia repudiate association with the issue of this scurrilous literature, and prevent, once and for all, any recurrence of this unsavoury strife. 529 KEA Wentworth 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY .- Having listened attentively to the honorable member, and being entirely in accord with the principle which, with much fervour and beating of the breast, he would have us think is actuating his action - that all local discord should be buried at this time - I was trying to find some possible excuse for this digging up of dead history other than a design to inflame those very passions that he pretended to be deprecating. If honorable members opposite, who are of all denominations, seek to get out of this business a solid church support for their political candidates, or if they wished to prevent this sort of thing in the future, I could have understood action being taken in this House. But are they endeavouring to find some explanation of an election that is past, and endeavouring to give te this particular incident of the election a weight which it certainly does not deserve? The secretary of . my campaign committee was a Roman Catholic, and in the Wentworth electorate it was noticeable that the people who were getting the pamphlets referred to were Roman Catholics. We waited for a long time, and then we found that Dr. Mannix, in Melbourne, actually congratulated the party which honorable members opposite represent for- its cleverness in reproducing and circulating the pamphlets in question. If it is a matter for contempt for any man at such a time as this to try to make political capital out of those religious differences that are buried down in the hearts of the majority of every people, how much more contemptible, and how degrading it is beyond all words when men come forward beating their breasts and proclaiming their own rectitude, while they are quietly circulating and thriving by the things that they profess to dislike? 529 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins Has not the honorable member finished with the business; why does he allow i t to come up again ? 529 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY If the honorable member will come forward and say that Parliament is in favour of stopping the carriage through the post of all this sectarian literature, on whatever side i t may be used, I am prepared to meet him half way; but that is an entirely different thing,. If , however, honorable members endeavour in this way to find some explanation for the result of the recent election, and, in so doing, attempt to inflame a bitterness that every loyal person in Australia wishes to see dead, I can only say that words fail me to express my utter contempt for their action. Many causes contributed to the great result of the last elections, and I do not think that least among them was the honorable member for Cook himself. 530 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - My majority was increased by 2,000 as compared with the result of the previous election. 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY But the honorable member took an unfair advantage over his constituents. I went into his electorate, and found that the argument which had most weight there was an argument addressed to the electors, not only with the usual photograph of the candidate—jus t to show how attractive he was - but with photographs of Himself, decked but in every costume known to the sartorial art. In one photograph I found the honorable member portrayed, not only as we see him here - no t only as an ordinary member of the great plebs—on e of ourselves— but decked out as even a lily has never been known to bloom. He was shown in this pamphlet in f u l l evening dress, with his title at the foot. It was not just " Brother Catts, issuing literature for the Labour party," but '" J . H . Catts, Campaign Director." 530 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - The honorable member went round spelling my name "Katz." 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I did not. I drew attention to the fact that there were in the Labour movement two men named Catts, but that one of them spelt his name in the German fashion. I was particularly careful to spell the honorable member's name " Catts." 530 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - But the honorable member did it very cunningly, suggesting that I was a, German. 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I have said many things against the Germans, and against the honorable member, but why should we charge either, the Germans or the honorable member with this connexion ? I have said that a very important member of the honorable member's party in Melbourne— a man whose importance in the party is not sufficiently recognised - i s that Katz who was for a considerable time secretary of the Clerks Union. 530 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - It was not " playing the game." 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY It was playing i t up to the hilt. It was a public duty that I performed. 530 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - A little bib over the Hilt, waa it not? 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I played i t up to the hilt, and put i t in the right place. That Mr. Katz was one of the first men in Australia to lead the revolt against the Prime Minister when he showed his preparedness to do his duty by the country, and he was aided and assisted afterwards by Mr. Catts, the honorable member for Cook. There were two other men with German names—one , I believe, born in Germany, and the other, like Mr. Katz, born in Australia—wh o with Mr. Katz worked up the conspiracy in the Melbourne Trades Hall which led to Mr. Hughes being ejected from the movement which owed more to him than to any other ten men in Australia. 530 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine - A recommendation of the Prime Minister's services to the Labour movement, by the honorable member for Wentworth, is a recommendation indeed. 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY Le t us consider for a moment what sort of a recommendation i t is that we can give. The Prime Minister was driven from his party on no principle opposed to his party platform. 'He was driven from i t because he did not think that any duty he owed his party was incompatible with his loyalty to his own country. 530 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - Who are the judges of that? 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I might very well ask who are the judges of still another matter. We have had to-day the honorable member for Barrier criticising the Government for their prosecution of the Industrial Workers of the World. 530 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine - Nothing of the sort. 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY n dat the same time honorable member after honorable member on the Opposition benches tell us that he has nothing in common with the Industrial Workers of the World. We had the honorable member for Cook telling Mr. Brookfield at the last elections that he must withdraw his statements or go out of the partly.. 530 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts I did not! agree with him in any way-. 530 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY And the honorable member said that he must withdraw his statement or himself . The Labour party at the outset were ^ as firm with Mr".- Brookfield as they were with the Prime Minister. But what happened to Mr. Brookfield? He has not withdrawn, and he has not gone out of the party. Not only has he not gone out, but the East Woollahra Labour League, in my own constituency, denounced the Central League for pretending that i t was going to put him out! of the organization. It declared that the Central Executive had no right to dictate to a member of the Labour organization on a question affecting his conscience. 531 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - Was that the branch that the honorable member formed in his constituency ? 531 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr KELLY I should like that interjection to be recorded, since nothing could do more to let the members of the East Woollahra Labour League know how sensible is the honorable member's appreciation of their efforts. However, that league evidently had some weight with the movement, because its protest against any attempt to interfere with "liberty of conscience ' ' was enough to save Brookfield, and he is still in the Labour movement. There was liberty of conscience for Mr. Brookfield, but no liberty of conscience for Mr. Hughes. No liberty of conscience was allowed honorable members now sitting on this side of the House who then belonged to the Official Labour party, and who merely sought to do their duty; but there was all honour and praise for the men who had the " p l u c k " to encourage men to come to Australia and to join organizations subversive of our society and our civilization! It was because the public realized that fact,. however much men might beat their breasts—tha t on one side were these forces of disintegration, and on the other were the forces of loyalty - i t was for that one prime great reason— that Australia recorded the verdict she did when she was appealed to last May. If honorable members opposite have any sincerity at all in making this move in connexion with sectarian pamphlets, I ask them to address themselves to- the future. I invite them to make it a broad programme for the future, and not to deal merely with the misdeeds of this or that man in connexion with elections that are now passed, in the hope of awakening and, perhaps, gaining a party advantage out of sectarian differences which no honest man should now wish -to keep alive in Australia. 531 KEX Brisbane 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON . -It is refreshing to hear the honorable member for Wentworth, who, one can well understand, desires that many of the facts of the last general election should be buried and forgotten. Such a desire is natural on the part of honorable members on the Government side of the House. 531 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd I should think that the honorable member would like them to be forgotten. 531 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON No t at all. 531 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - The honorable member had the narrowest squeak of his life. 531 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Honorable members on the Government side of the House need not lay the flattering unction to their souls that there is any likelihood of their conduct during the last election campaign being soon forgotten. They have left on .the political records of Australia an indelible stain which will never be removed. 531 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - What did they do? 531 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON That is the sort of question that is usually put by a man who is seeking to cover his own misdeeds. The election was certainly one of the most bitter and most keenly-contested that Australia has ever known. The issues that were before the people seemed to most citizens to require a calm, judicial, careful attitude on the part of candidates.. All the essential facts, wliich were many and serious, demanded the most careful investigation, and i t was imperative that the verdict of the people should be based on a thorough appreciation of those facts. But, instead of the people being allowed to make up their minds after calm consideration, based upon an intelligent presentation of the facts, all sorts of side issues were introduced, with the object of preventing a proper judgment and decision on the part of the electors. Undoubtedly the sectarian question was the most disturbing element introduced. The honorable member for Wentworth suggested in his closing remarks that all parties should unite to destroy the sectarian bitterness and differences which, unfortunately, exist. I heartily agree with that sentiment. I hold my religious opinions strongly, and the fact that I do o incites in me the desire that every man should be at liberty to hold his religious opinions just as strongly, and that he should be equally free to express them. That, however, is not the attitude adopted by many to-day. There are, fortunately, in the community a number of people who are willing to allow that freedom of thought and of speech in regard, not only to religious, but other questions. But such was the conduct, of affairs during the last general election that no unprejudiced observer, either in Australia or abroad, would believe that i t reflected the general feeling of the people. 532 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - Does not the fellow who is " licked " always squeal? 532 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON — Not always. The honorable member, being a Scotchman, will appreciate my point when I say that deep down in the hearts of the people of the British Isles there is a sporting instinct which enables them to take a beating with a good spirit, provided that they are beaten on fair grounds and after a fair trial. I like that sporting instinct, and it is more marked in the British people than in any other people of the world. They can put up a fight and take a beating, and the man who is not competent to take a beating is not worthy of a victory. We in Australia are trying to build up a nation, and, necessarily, this nation must be • built up of many classes— of people from all parts of the world, with different ideas and methods, and entirely opposite views. If we accentuate the differences that go back for centuries, how are we to. secure in this country a united people who will make Australia progress? There is nothing more disintegrating than religious differences. We thought we had abolished religious wars; and, so far as actual fighting is concerned, I think we have reached that stage. But it really seems as if we had simply transferred the quarrel and opposition from the physical arena to the political arena. No person can deny that the issue of these sectarian leaflets during the election 'was not a religious movement, but a political movement. These pamphlets, under the name of Critchley Parker, were not issued for a religious purpose; they were not issued in order to secure some specially religious result, but entirely with the obvious purpose of effecting a political result. Prom that point of view I contend that they were political .pamphlets, pure and simple. It may only be a coincidence, but it is a remarkable and unanswerable fact that their political colour was one-sided—tha t they were issued as political pamphlets against the Labour party. 532 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman That is bunkum! They hit me very hard. 532 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I know they did. They. were issued evidently in order to hit members of a particular faith, and that is why I object to them, no matter whether they affected members on this side or on the other. 532 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - That is in opposition to your previous statement. 532 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON No , it is not, as I shall show. They were issued to secure the triumph for the National party— that is undeniable. Their whole argument throughout their issue during the election period was political; and I am confirmed in that opinion because of a little slip that was attached to them. I now qubte from the Worker of 2'9th March in reference to the cartoons issued by the Statesman and Mining Standard— The supplies were so plentiful, and the distribution so thoroughly carried out, that only a devilishly deep-laid scheme could have been responsible. Thoroughness of the kind could not have been the result of mere individualism and casual chance. t is true that Holman disowned the scurrilous leaflet, but the infamous thing had then been scattered broadcast, and had largely achieved its hideous purpose. That was after the State elections in New South Wales. The whole point is in the note which was attached to the quotation from the Worker, and which accompanied the issues of the Statesman and Mining Standard during the Federal election, as follows:— With your help a similar result should be obtained in the Federal elections. Fresh literature is now ready. Any one going through these publications from beginning to end must see that they are nothing but arguments in favour of "downing" the Labour party and supporting the members of the National party. 532 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - The only one I saw had no reference to political parties at all. 533 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON —That they were meant for political purposes is very obvious. 533 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Surely no one doubts that? 533 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Honorable members opposite are denying i t . I am confirmed in my view by two particular occurrences. The Prime Minister, speaking at Bendigo on the 23rd April, is reported to have said— I want to say authoritatively that I have noticed with considerable pain that certain literature is being circulated in this district, and throughout Australia presumably, which is giving offence to certain of my fellow-citizens of the Roman Catholic faith. I want to repudiate this literature, to say that it is offensive to me us it is to those who hold a different religion to myself. This literature can serve no useful purpose in this campaign. It misunderstands entirely the nature of the issues by which the people are confronted. This campaign has nothing at all to do with religion. I do not deny that -there are some men who are not loyal to Australia, but the fact that they are not loyal to Australia has nothing at all to do with their religion. Therefore, I want emphatically to repudiate this literature, some ot which is most offensive, arid to say that, as far as I am able, I shall see that Australia is purged of it during the rest of this contest. That is exactly the attitude that was taken up prior to the New South Wales elections! by Mr. Holman. A week before the elections, Mr. Holman dramatically repudiated the • Critchley Parker leaflets in almost the same terms as those in which the Prime Minister, a fortnight before the Federal elections, repudiated the later issues. It is remarkable that, although the Prime Minister promised at Bendigo, on the 23rd April, that he would see that Australia was purged of this literature during the balance of the election period, no less than two issues took place between the date of the right honorable gentleman's speech and the elections)—No . 3, dated 26th April, and No. 4, dated 3rd May. If the Prime Minister was sincere and honest in that statement that he would purge Australia of this literature, how is i t that he was not able to stop the issue of the two later numbers of this paper which was causing so much trouble? He was able to do a tremendous lot in the way of stopping the issue of Labour newspapers, and was able to exercise a censorship over the press during- the election period that can never be forgotten in the political history of tha country; but all his protestations, and all his promises at Bendigo as to purging the country of this literature, were so much, clap-trap. Then there is 'another point. The first issue of this newspaper that came to particular notice during the elections was only a comparatively small one of four sheets, whereas the later publications were greatly increased in size. No; 2 of the publication was .a very much larger sheet than No. 1, and No. 3 Was twice the size of No. 2, or four times the size of the first issue. It is a peculiar faot that the' fourth issue, Bated only two days before the elections, came back to the original small size. How is i t that, as the money began to come in, and as the surreptitious and bad influence of these leaflets, and the detrimental effect they were apparently having qn the Labour party became evident, the issues increased in size, and that invitations were sent' out to the people to purchase them at a cheap rate, with a promise that they would be forwarded so promptly that there would be no difficulty in having them distributed by those willing to help the National cause? Every issue printed asked the public to keep the movement going, and help i t along, because of the good influence i t had had against the Labour party in the New South Wales election, and of the likelihood of a similar effect in the Federal elections. There is another fact that confirms me in the opinion that these issues were meant for a particular purpose, a fact! which, though i t may be only a coincidence, is rather significant. The address of the Statesman and Mining Standard is given as 395 Collins- street, Melbourne, and I have here a copy of a letter sent out by Mr. A. S. Whyte, secretary of the National party, who dates it. from the National Campaign Council, National Mutual Buildings, 395 Collins-street—ith e same address as that of the Statesman and Mining Standard. The letter is dated the 29th March, 1917, and ia a copy of one sent out to the editors of country newspapers— The National Campaign Council, National Mutual Buildings, 395 Collins-street, Melbourne, 29th March, 1917. The Editor, Dear Sir, - During the present Federal elections, it is the intention of the National Campaign Council to circulate to the country newspapers of Victoria a daily budget of brightly written matter bearing on the question. A copy will be forwarded you each day, and the Council will be grateful if you will find room in your journal for such extracts as meet your views. Yours faithfully, A. S. WHYTE, Publicity Secretary. Mr. Whyte is a very estimable gentleman, and a very capable journalist. 534 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler How do you connect Mr. Whyte with these pamphlets ? Is not the. building in Collins-street a', large building with scores of offices in i t ? That is a dastardly insinuation. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Mr . Whyte was filling a very useful place in the press gallery of this House. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Are you accusing Mr. Whyte of being associated with these pamphlets ? 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I ask the Minister to allow me to finish my sentence. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - The insinuation is entirely unjustified. It is not the same building either. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON —Th e Minister is quite on the wrong track. I was saying that Mr. Whyte filled a very useful place in the press gallery, • but he suddenly became secretary of the National Campaign Council. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - No, he did not. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Organizer , then, or publicity agent, with a salary beginning at £600, and a promise in the future of • £750. I do not suggest for one moment that Mr. Whyte had anything whatever to do with the Critchley Parker pamphlets. 534 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - You made that suggestion a little while ago. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I am going to make now exactly the same suggestion that I made then. I do not • suggest for a moment that the Critchley Parker pamphlets came out of Mr. Whyte's office, but i t is a coincidence, which the public noted, that the Statesman and Mining Standard came from 395 Collins-street. and that Mr. Whvte's office was also at that number. Undoubtedly in the mind of the public, and in my own mind, the National Campaign Council had some very interesting connexions with Mr. Critchley Parker's Statesman and Mining Standard office. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - You suggest that the Campaign Council had some connexion with these pamphlets? 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I do 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Then, as Chairman of the Campaign Council, I say that that statement is entirely untrue 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Very well. I must accept the honorable gentleman's denial, and withdraw the statement. It will be very satisfactory, not only to myself, but to a large section of the public to know, through the Chairman, that the National Campaign Council dissociates i t self from any connexion with the pamphlets. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Hear, hear ! We did that. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON It was a good thing to do. 534 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - That was public news long ago. 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt It waa published all over the country 534 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - You know you subsidized the thing- why run away from it? 534 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt The Leader of the Opposition has made a direct charge, and I rise to order.. I ask that the honorable member be called upon to withdraw the statement, because it) is untrue. 534 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, The Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER f the statement is offensive to the Minister, I ask that it be withdrawn.. 534 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - I withdraw it, but I can believe it. 534 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, The Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER I ask the honorable member to withdraw his remark unreservedly. 534 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - I withdraw it. I shall have a word or two to say on the subject presently. 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I wish that there were' hope of realizing the suggestion of the honorable member for "Wentworth that a stop should be put to this sectarian strife. But how can we indulge in such hope in view of the fact that yesterday representatives from a number of States met in Melbourne, and decided to form a federation for the express purpose of keeping sectarianism alive? 534 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton Have not those persons as much right to form a federation as others have to form a Catholic Federation? 534 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON I am a Protestant, but I allow to the Roman Catholic the right to believe such doctrines as he may think fit to believe, reserving the same right to myself. To build up the citizenship of this country on right lines, we should put a stop to sectarianism. I happen to know not only that there is being organized in Victoria the federation to which I have just referred, but also that in Queensland religious feelings are being deliberately and maliciously worked upon for the purposes of the next State election, and that probably the next Victorian election, too, will be fought on the sectarian issue. When these elections take place, we shall know the worth of the protestation of honorable members opposite that sectarianism is distasteful and objectionable to them. The honorable member for Cook has mentioned that the pamphlets which have been objected to, and others like them are at present in circulation in the Macquarie electorate, with a view to winning a by-election for the Government of New South Wales. But no useful suggestion has been made regarding the .stoppage of sectarianism. Probably few members hold the same views on this subject that I hold. I have not the slightest objection to the distribution of religious or political literature of any kind. Let men print what they like. The most malicious lies were published about me and about my comrades of the Labour party during the last election. I have such an absolute love of freedom of speech and freedom of the press that things would have to be very bad indeed before I would interfere with any man for saying what he thought, or with any newspaper for printing what i t liked. But when sectarianism is introduced into politics, i t is time to call a halt. If these pamphlets had been issued straight out as religious pamphlets, I would not have objected to them. I cannot think that the Roman Catholic, the Presbvterian, the Methodist, or any of the other great Churches, would worry about what -their opponents might say of them, or be afraid to meet- the arguments advanced against them. To stop the circulation of this literature through the Post Office is in line with the proposal of the Prime Minister last night, to stop the circulation of the Industrial Workers of the World literature. Do honorable members think that a cause can be silenced by chopping off a head or two, or preventing the circulation of literature in support of i t ? The history of the world shows that that is impossible. You may silence an individual, but you cannot suppress a movement. It may be crushed, but if there is life an truth in ib, i t cannot be stopped. I am so fond of liberty of speech and thought, and conscience, that I am prepared to allow all sorts to have their say. 535 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is why you turned us out of the Labour party. 535 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON The honorable member will nob accuse me of harboring ill-feeling against any member opposite and particularly against members with' whom I was once associated. He and others were not put out of the Labour party; they left i t . 535 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr Boyd - They would have been tossed out. A motion for their expulsion was moved by the honorable member himself. 535 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON No 535 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - The Prime Minister was removed from the chairmanship of the Labour party on the motion of the honorable member. 535 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON My motion was open and honest. Such motions are constantly being moved. 534 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, The Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER —Th e honorable member must confine himself to the amendment. 535 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON e in this Parliament are responsible, for the purity of the public life of the community. We must keep clean and clear the political issues that the people have to determine at election time. Those who cloud such big issues as were before the electors last May are traitors to Australia. The disloyalists during the last election were those who supported and encouraged the issue of these pamphlets.- They did a disservice to Australia, the effect of which will rebound upon themselves. As a man sows, so shall he also reap. The distribution of literature of this kind can result only in a harvest of trouble and sorrow, and I am sure that many honorable members opposite are to-day heartily ashamed of what was done. Will they not join with us in asking for the appointment of a Royal Commission to find out who was responsible—whethe r Nationalists or Labour men, men in high positions in the religious world, or men without religion? Let us know what men were responsible. It is such men who should be deported From a country where we are trying to establish liberty, justice, and freedom. 535 4.45 JRP Henty 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD .- After the fine moral lecture that we have just heard, I feel that the Church of Scotland lost a great minister in the honorable member for Brisbane. His prophecies concerning what will befall the Nationalist party if it does not support the amendment were very painful. I have been in public life in this country for nearly twenty years, and have never yet found it necessary to publicly discuss the religious opinions of any member of the community. During the last electoral campaign I was, for the first time in my political career, asked my views on a religious question, and I replied to the questioner that, as I had never yet felt it necessary to discuss religious matters in public, I did not intend to commence to do so. To the Roman Catholic, the Protestant, the Jew, the Gentile, the Buddhist, and every other person in the community, religion, like politics, is purely a matter of conscience. But when a man drags his religion into public life, he must expect it to be criticised. Were I to discuss my religion publicly, I should expect it to be criticised. I have had no connexion with Mr.- Critchley Parker nor with the pamphlets which have been issued under hi3 name, and knew nothing about them until they had been printed and distributed. I believe that their distribution did not assist this party one iota. The stirring up of religious strife does not help anybody. This literature was printed, and distributed to set certain sections of -the community at each other's throats, and I deprecate all such action. 536 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best I s that why it was circulated by the other side? 536 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD I do not know why i t was circulated bv the other side. No doubt, once i t was published, those interested in i t felt justified in putting i t to whatever use they thought would benefit their own cause. They were at liberty to do that, but, personally, I was not interested in the matter in any shape or form. In view of the statements that have been made by the Prime Minister, the Minister for Works and Railways, and other responsible leaders of this party, i t is a waste of time to rake up this matter after an interval of so many months, and i t will not do credit to this Parliament if we allow this religious strife to be continued. The appointment of a Royal Commission would put the country to great expense, and many folios of evidence would be published that would never be read. How many honorable members have read the evidence accompanying the report of any of the Royal Commissions that have been appointed 536 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Did not the honorable member read the evidence of the Postal Commission ? 536 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD No , and I have not read the evidence of any other Commission. When evidence is published by a Commission like the Fruit Commission, of which the honorable member for Brisbane was a member 536 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - And whose members wished to go to England. 536 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD And have a royal time at the country's expense. 536 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - That is quite wrong. 536 JRP 0 0 BOYD, James Mr BOYD All these Commissions publish reports and minutes of evidence sufficient to sink a ship, and probably the best thing that could happen to these documents would be to be sunk. These Commissions simply absorb the country's money, and give no adequate return for it. In order to discover whether the honorable gentlemen who are moving for the appointment of a Royal Commission are in deadly earnest, and are prepared to do their work purely out of patriotic motives, and in the interests of the public, I move— That the following words be added to the amendment: - " and that no payment be made or expenses allowed to any member of the Royal Commission, or any financial assistance be given by the Commonwealth towards the purchase of creature comforts for the members of the Commission." 536 4.52 JXA Hunter 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON . - I regard tEe question before the House as very important. Most of the preceding speakers have dealt with it from a political and party point of view. This Chamber ought to rise above that level, and in. this time of national stress the national view should predominate. It must be admitted that the circulation, at a time like this, of offensive literature and cartoons respecting an important section of the community is not calculated to promote the best interests of the nation. Honorable members have often said that when the country is at war it is necessary to have unanimity, and to avoid discord. Yet to-day there is circulating throughout the Commonwealth literature which is most) insulting, and is doing much to retard recruiting. For my part, the late election is past, and counts for nothing. Like the honorable member for Plenty, I have fought all my campaigns, seven in number, without ever having once raised the sectarian issue, and I have never permitted it to be introduced at any meeting that I have addressed. Therefore, I can put aside all consideration of the last election when dealing with the matter now before the House. What honorable members should consider is whether the person responsible for the circulation of this offensive matter should be permitted to continue his propaganda, or whether he ought not to be dealt with because of the great injury he has done to the Allies' cause. On the first day of the session I asked the Prime Minister certain questions, and to my surprise his answer left me in considerable doubt as to whether the Government, which claims to have sufficient power to do almost anything under the War Precautions Act, could deal with Critchley Parker, who is supposed to be responsible for the circulation of the sectarian pamphlets referred to. The question I put to the Prime Minister was this - SECTARIAN PAMPHLETS Mr. CHARLTON.—I s the Prime Minister aware that pamphlets, signed by one Critchley Parker, and reflecting on Catholics in connexion with the war, have been freely circulated throughout the Commonwealth ? Does the Prime Minister consider that such literature is likely to cause dissension between sections of the community at a time when harmony should prevail, and, in consequence, retard recruiting! If so, does the right honorable gentleman intend to take any action under the War Precautions Act against the person referred to, and any other persons issuing publications which may engender strife in the community during the war? Mr. HUGHES.— I have not seen all the pamphlets, but I have seen-a pamphlet, and I think it most unfortunate that it was circulated. I did what I could to prevent its further circulation. It is apparent from the Prime Minister's answer that he must have- known what the pamphlets contained; and he said he had done his best to prevent their further circulation. If the honorable gentleman found that he had not sufficient power to prevent the distribution of printed matter of this kind, he ought to have moved immediately in this Parliament to obtain such power in order to prevent a repetition of the offence. I further asked the Prime Minister— Mr. CHARLTON.—In view of the statement of the Prime Minister, that he knows, of no power under which action can be taken against Mr. , Critchley Parker, will he immediately draw up a regulation under the War Precautions Act in order to prevent such cartoons being circulated by any person or journal? Mr. HUGHES.—An y literature, by whomsoever circulated, which is prejudicial to recruiting, will be suppressed, whether it is issued by Mr. Critchley Parker or any one else, even by the Political Labour Leagues. That answer conveyed to my mind the impression that the Prime Minister had power to deal with any one who did anything prejudicial to recruiting. The question then arises—Di d the. issue of these pamphlets, wliich offended a certain section of the community, do anything to retard recruiting? Certain statements are contained in the pamphlets which give considerable offence to adherents of the Roman Catholic faith. Nobody can question that Roman Catholics have responded to the call-of patriotism equally as well as any other section of the community, but even had they not done so, there is no justification for anybody attempting to injure their feelings in this regard.' That, however', was the sole purpose of the issue of these pamphlet's, and the result is that Roman 'Catholic people in different parts of the Commonwealth feel very much hurt hy these publications being permitted to circulate without any effort being made by. the Government to suppress them. It does seem strange that, while- the Government can censor any news which they do not think desirable to give to the public - and in some respects the Allied cause would be benefited if more information were given to the public—the s particular gentleman can issue printed matter which is creating disruption and discord in the community at a time of national crisis, while no power seems to reside in the Government to protect the offended citizens. If that be really so, i t is a most deplorable position for the Australian Parliament and people to be in. But I think the Government have power under the War Precautions Act to deal with this matter, and I cannot understand why action has not been taken. I feel sure that honorable members on both sides of the House are anxious to avoid discord at this period. We are desirous of helping the voluntary system, but how can we do that if we allow the arousing of sectarian feeling in regard to the war and other matters. This outrageous conduct should not be permitted for a moment. 538 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - Other papers come within the same category. 538 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON If so, why should we not deal with them all? If we withhold certain information from the public because it is not to their advantage to know it, why should we allow the circulation of statements which are doing an immense amount of harm to recruiting? Suppose there were no provision under the War Precautions Act for dealing with this menace to the community, have we not the necessary power under the Post and Telegraph Act? I asked this question of the Postmaster-General— 1. Is it a fact that a series of pamphlets, .which apparently contained libellous and grossly offensive matter, issued over the name of Critchley Parker, were recently sent through the post? 4. As section 107 of the Post and 'Telegraph Act 1901-1910 provides that "any person who knowingly sends - or attempts to send - by post any postal article which has thereon, or therein, or on the envelope or cover thereof, any words, marks, designs of an indecent, obscene, blasphemous, libellous, or grossly offensive character shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100, or to a term of imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years," why was the sender of these pamphlets, if they are what they are alleged to be, not prosecuted under this section? Mr. WEBSTER.—Th e answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow:— 1. I have been so informed.. I ain legally advised that there is no Commonwealth law to prevent the transmission by post of the pamphlets in question. To my mind, that section clearly expresses the intention of .Parliament that nothing offensive should be allowed to circulate through the Postal Department, and we know that different. Postmasters- General in the past have used that section for the suppression of certain literature. If ever Parliament clearly expressed in language what i t intended i t aid so in that section, and if the section has no application to literature such as Critchley Parker has distributed, it is time' Parliament amended the law. If the channels of the Post Office can be used in time of national stress to sow seeds of dissension amongst the people, the sooner we amend our law the better for all concerned. We are told by the Prime Minister that, although this literature is very injurious, and causing dissension which ist detrimental to the Allies' cause, the Government are powerless to act. At the same time, the Government are constantly acting under the War Precautions Act in connexion with other matters. If the Government have not the power to suppress the Critchley Parker literature, they are doing an injustice to others whose literature they are suppressing, because, according to the statements of Ministers, they are not acting according to the law. Having regard to the fact that Parliament has enacted legislation to give the Government power in a time of crisis to do anything necessary in the interests of the nation, there is no justification for the statements of the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General that they have no power to handle this matter. I assert that already that power is vested in the- Government. At a time of • national crisis they can do anything they like under the War Precautions Act; they are in th position of autocrats, and really Parliament cannot interfere with them. We should rise above party considerations in connexion with this matter, and resolve to discover who really did circulate this literature. The honorable member for Cook ' is to be commended for having brought forward a proposal to appoint a Royal Commission. That body should have the fullest power to inquire into everything connected with the distribution of sectarian literature, and, so far as expenses are concerned, honorable members on this side are quite ready to agree to the amendment of the honorable member for Henty. We are prepared to act on such a Commission without any remuneration at all, for the purpose of eliciting the fullest information. At the same time, the Government should use the powers they possess in order. to prevent the circulation of offensive literature, which is doing so much harm to the national cause by prejudicing recruiting. The Prime Minister tells us that anything which is prejudicial to requiting will be dealt with immediately. This literature has certainly prevented many from enlisting, yet nothing has been done in the matter. If the Government are not prepared to accept the amendment, they at least should give a guarantee that whoever was responsible for this literature should be dealt with just as any other person who does anything prejudicial to recruiting is dealt with. 539 5.6 JWG Perth 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER .- I agree with the general position taken up by the honorable member for Hunter, and I congratulate him on the unique fact that in his speech he carefully and intentionally refrained from identifying honorable members on this side of the House with the issue of the pamphlets referred to. In that regard he stands on a very much higher plane than his colleague, the honorable member for Brisbane, who made an effort, with a disingenuousness which almost appears to be part of his nature, to identify the National Federation with, the issue of these wretched pamphlets. 514 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton Scotch-like . 539 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER er y un-Scotch-like. A Scotsman always attacks from the front, and not from behind, and makes his weight felt all the more on account of adopting that method. I propose to attack the honorable member for Brisbane from the front, and to point out the insidious and unfair method by which he attempted to prove his case. Having discovered that the office from which these pamphlets were issued and the office of an official connected with the National Federation bore the same number in the same street, he was prepared to state that fact and allow i t to go forth to the public so that the undoubted deduction could be made by every one who read i t that they were one and the same office; whereas the Melbourne Directory shows that the number which the honorable member for Brisbane gave is .borne by a huge range of offices occupied by oyer sixty firms. At least, I have counted sixty names of firms, and there are possibly more. It is absolutely apparent that the honorable member for Brisbane, in his eagerness to identify the National Council with these pamphlets, has put before the country an insinuation that is as unfair as i t is unfounded. I would nob have risen to speak on this matter but that I felt i t was necessary to indicate some of the methods by which some honorable members opposite seek to identify those who sit on this side of the House with the pamphlets in question. The number of these pamphlets circulated in Western Australia was not very great, but they were sent from Melbourne in envelopes, dissociated altogether from the context of the newspaper to which they belonged, and were addressed in the great majority of cases to leading Roman Catholics who were on the National Federation side. 539 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Do you think that that is the point? Is not the point " who printed them?" 539 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER I am coming to that question, if the honorable member will allow me. There is one clear indication that the circulation of these pamphlets in Western Australia was not intended for the benefit of the National Federation candidates, and could not be identified with the National Federation. The matter came under my notice through an indignant Roman Catholic coming into the office of the Federation with a copy of the pamphlet, and I immediately went to the Deputy Postmaster-General, and asked him if he had not the power to stop their circulation. He is an old and experienced servant of the Commonwealth, and he replied that he had the necessary power, and that he would have no hesitation in using i t , but, unfortunately, the pamphlets were being circulated in ordinary envelopes,, and unless the whole of the correspondence that went through the General Post Office in Perth was opened, i t would be impossible for him to trace them. Therefore nothing could be done. I understand that a little earlier a few copies of this Australian Statesman and Mining Standard reached Western Australia. 539 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - I understand that this literature was nob sealed up. 539 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER The great majority of the pamphlets that reached Western Australia were enclosed in ordinary envelopes. 539 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - I can show the honorable member one pamphlet bearing the postmark on the document) itself. 539 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER All I can say is that a great many individuals must have been at work, each in his own particular way, in this regard. At any rate, those operating in Western Australia were emphatically not on the side of the National Federation candidates. My opinion, which I give for what i t is worth, is that some individual issued the pamphlets for the sake of notoriety. I cannot imagine any one doing i t in the belief that he was helping any particular cause. I cannot imagine anyone thinking that the National Federation's cause would be assisted by them, because, I am glad to say, we have a large number of Roman Catholics in the Federation, who are as loyal to the Empire as any of us here, and perhaps are more loyal than some of us, and who have made their sacrifice and done their work in connexion with the war, and are entitled to our greatest regard and consideration. I am proud to say that the Roman Catholic Church in Western Australia, in the person of its leading men,, has taken no small part in assisting the Allies in this great war, and that the rank and file of its laity have done their share in volunteering in that State. However, I am equally indignant with honorable members opposite in regard to the issue of these pamphlets, and equally anxious to discover who was responsible. I am prepared to support the amendment if the honorable member for Cook will avoid one possibility in that regard. I do not wish t'o see a Commission appointed consisting of so many partisans on either side. 540 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - That is a matter for the Government to decide. 540 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER I am telling the honorable member what I think the Commission ought not to consist of, because i t would simply mean accentuating the evil. I cordially agree with the honorable member for Hunter that the issue of these pamphlets had an undoubtedly prejudicial effect on recruiting,, and that the person who issued' them should have been punished. The Government should have taken the responsibility of punishing him under the War Precautions Act. I do not know why they did not do so. I want to see the matter of the publication of the pamphlets investigated with a view to preventing any possible repetition of such a thing, and with a view to punishing those who were guilty, but I do not wish to see an expensive Commission appointed that will carry on its work to an unnecessary length with a totally unjustifiable amount of expense. Therefore, I propose to move an amendment on the amendment to add after " Royal Commission" the following words—. consisting of a member of the Supreme Court of Victoria. If we appoint a Justice of the Supreme Court of Victoria, we will have an inquiry that will be effective, and that will serve the purpose at which honorable members aim, and one which I am prepared to support, and which is quite justified in the circumstances. 540 5.16 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- I do not know whether the honorable member for Cook is willing to accept the suggestion of the honorable member for Perth, but I am agreeable to it. We should have an investigation in order to ascertain who issued the cartoons and who printed them. Every one will agree with me that they were absolutely disgraceful. They were certainly very insulting to a very large section of this community. In my opinion, they were issued with the deliberate intention of alienating one section of the community against those who were named in them, and creating bitter feelings in both sections, and inflaming the passions of the people. The honorable member for Perth has deprecated the party issue being brought into this matter. Other honorable members have claimed that members of the Labour party were responsible for having circulated the pamphlets. But if they will look at' the Victorian newspapers issued before the elections,- they will see that the cartoons were advertised for sale, in papers which were not Labour papers. These advertisements advised people to hurry up and buy No. 2 cartoon as No. 3 would soon be out, and No. 1 was all sold out. Let honorable members turn back the files of the Argus, and see if they cannot discover that advertisement. Is the Argus a Labour newspaper? It may be said that the newspaper was paid for the advertisement. It certainly did its best to boom these cartoons. I understood that, after a time, this particular advertisement was stopped. I suppose it was stopped because the injury that the cartoons were doing was seen, or because it was thought that they were not having the desired effect. I have been in public life a good number of years, but I have never on any platform descended to sectarianism. Sectarianism is a descent, but do honorable members wish to know who started the sectarian question at the recent election ? If so, they can find it in Hansard of the 23rd February of this year, page 10639. When we were discussing the postponement of the parliamentary elections, I was twitting the Prime Minister with having run away from conscription. Previously he had said that he had " seen the light," and on this occasion, I said that he had " seen the light," that it was not a fixed light, but one of those revolving lights used in lighthouses which sometimes flash red, and sometimes-, and then the Prime Minister interjected, " The honorable member has seen green." What did he mean ? Was he referring to the green light of a railway signal or was he seeking to introduce sectarianism ? It cannot be denied that the Prime Minister then started the sectarian cry so far as the last elections were concerned. We have this record in Hansard to prove that he fanned the flame on that occasion. 541 KXK NAT 1 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster The honorable member must be " green " if he takes that view. 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Member s of the Ministry twitted me on the day this speech was delivered, declaring that the Prime Minister had " scored " Is i t reasonable' to say that any man " scores " -by introducing sectarianism into a fight? I have never introduced sectarianism, and would sooner walk out of public life than do so. Over and over again I have said from public platforms that I would never penalize any man or woman for something which happened before their birth. Our religion is practically decided for us before we are born. Ninety-nine per cent, of the people follow the religion of their parents. I do not know who distributed these pamphlets, but I do know that in some districts they were circulated with very good effect. 541 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - In my electorate they were circulated with good effect from the point of view of my opponent. 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Judging by the result of a by-election last Saturday for a State constituency within the honorable member's electorate, I should say that his majority is being rapidly whittled away. Mr. Lutey, the Labour candidate, defeated Mr. Scaddan by a bigger majority than . the honorable member scored against Mr. Mahon in the same district. 541 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - I defeated Mr. Mahon in that particular part of my electorate. 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Then the honorable . member must recognise that his majority has disappeared. I am very anxious that a Royal Commission should be appointed, so that many of these issues may be cleared up. We were told a little while ago that Mr. Whyte, the publicity secretary of the National Campaign Council, had nothing whatever to do with Mr. Critchley Parker's newspaper, the Statesman and Mining Standard. On that point I would inform honorable members that in the Maryborough Chronicle of 17th Apijil last, .there appeared a two-column article, the opening paragraph of which read, " The following statement regarding the control of .the sugar industry is issued by the Prime Minister, Mr. Hughes." At the foot of the article appeared the statement— Authorized by the National Campaign Council 395 Collins-street, Melbourne. A. S. Whyte, publicity secretary, Statesman and Mining Standard, 376 Flinders-lane, Melbourne. The Maryborough Chronicle, as the honorable member for Wide Bay knows, is not a Labour newspaper. When the honorable member for Perth said that there was no connexion between Mr. Whyte and Mr. Critchley Parker's paper, I fortunately remembered- having seen this statement in a Queensland newspaper, and I now place i t on record. 541 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - Mr Whyte might have been identified with the Mining Standard and yet not identified with the matter of which the honorable member complains. 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR hi s article appeared bwo months after Mr. Whyte had started to work for the National Campaign Council, and the quotation I have made from the Maryborough Chronicle is very in-teresting as connecting him with the Statesman and Mining Standard. If a Commission were appointed, we might be able to get at some more of these facts, and to ascertain also why these objectionable circulars were issued in some parts of the Commonwealth and not in others. Why, for instance, were they not issued in Tasmania? 541 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - Does the honorable member say that the National party issued them in any district? 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I have every reason to believe that i t did. 541 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - I know exactly the opposite. 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR How does the honorable member overcome the fact that they were advertised for sale in the Nationalist newspapers, and not in Labour journals? 541 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - What Nationalist newspapers'? 541 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR They were advertised, for instance, in the Argus, which is a Nationalist newspaper. 542 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr Fowler - Sometimes. 542 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR During the election campaign, at all events, it supported the Nationalist party. It has never supported Labour, -whatever else it may have done. It has always done its best for the propertied classes and for vested interests. In the course of the election' campaign I made one or two interesting discoveries in regard to this literature. After addressing a meeting at Benalla one evening, I had a conversation with a gentleman who told me that he lived in a district close by, where there was no branch of either the National Federation or the Labour party. Two residents of that district, however, wrote—the one as "secretary of the local Labour branch," and the other as " secretary of the local branch of the National League"—t o Critchley Parker for copies of the cartoons that had been advertised. They forwarded the money for them; but, while the cartoons were sent to the man who wrote as secretary of the Nationalist League branch, the other man was not furnished with a copy. The man who applied as secretary of the local branch of the Nationalist League said, "What is more, I received a second supply, although I had sent no money for i t . " 542 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - The honorable member should give us the names of these gentlemen. 542 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I shall be pleased to supply them to the Commission, if i t is .appointed. I hope that the House will agree to our proposal, so that we may get at the truth. The honorable member for Wentworth urged this afternoon that everything relating to the recent election, should be forgotten. There are some things, however, which cannot be overlooked. I hope that at the first opportunity we shall remove from the Electoral Act the provision limiting the expenditure of candidates. Every one knows that i t is a fraud. There are not more than half-a-dozen members who can honestly sign the declaration that their expenses did nut exceed £100. 542 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - Does the honorable member include himself among the number? 542 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR No election has cost me £50 for the expenses which are allowed under the Act, which does not include travelling expenses. 542 KTT FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, Arthur Mr BRUCE SMITH - The honorable member expects us to believe that statement, and I hope he will believe us when we say that in no case has an election cost us £100. 542 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR We have been told that in one electorate alone eighty motor cars were employed. 542 KXK NAT 1 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster - In the honorable member's case there .was practically no election. 542 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I live in my electorate, the people know me, and they trust me. At the last election I was given a larger vote than ever before, so that, having regard to the scurrilous attacks which were made upon me- by the two morning newspapers, I have every reason to be proud. Returning to the question which we have been discussing, I would remind the House that those who make the most of sectarianism have no religious feeling or instinct. The sectarian cry is absolutely opposed to true religion, and those who raise it are, for the most part, people who never darken the doors of a church, and who are as far removed from Christianity as the earth is from the heavens. I hope that the motion for the appointment of a Commission will be carried. As to the amendment, i t does not affect me in the least. It has never been my privilege to be a member of a Royal Commission, and I care not whether members of this Commission be paid or not. There ought certainly to be an inquiry as to who was responsible for the circulation of this sectarian literature, and, if necessary, we should provide for an amendment cf the electoral law to prevent the recurrence of such a thing. It certainly reflects no- credit on any one who was associated with it at the last general election. 542 JX7 Eden-Monaro 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN . - The speech just delivered by the Leader of the Opposition does him no credit. We could have understood a man like the honorable member for Brisbane trying to make party capital out of this sort of thing, but the honorable member for Yarra would have done well had he approached the consideration of the question from the stand-point adopted by the honors able member for Hunter. No good purpose can be served by these attempts to throw mud. I should like, for a moment, to put before honorable members my own position. For a long time after setting out on the election campaign, I was not aware that this literature was being circulated. Indeed, I was half way through the fight when I first learned that sectarian pamphlets were being sent through the post, principally to Irish people in my district, and, as the result of it, I lost many good friends. 543 KIL 0 0 LYNCH, John Mr Lynch - That was my experience 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN It was the experience of most honorable members on this side of the House. In endeavouring to ascertain who were responsible for the circulation of this literature, one naturally asks, " Who were most likely to be injured by these pamphlets?" and the only answer that can be given is that they injured our National party.. Throughout New .South Wales they did our party much harm. They lost us thousands of votes, and also many good friends. I heard a rumour that the pamphlets were being reprinted on behalf of one section of the community. It is a remarkable fact that these pamphlets were posted to only one section of the electors, and the position grew so " ho t " that I had to issue an advertisement and send circulars round the district in reference to the matter. 543 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins -It got too "hot," did it? 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN It did, and I am sorry to see the honorable member for Newcastle is getting into bad company, because I never before Heard of him connected with a dirty business like this. This is the circular I sent out— Tlie dirty literature being distributed throughout Eden-Monaro is evidently being done by my enemies with the intention of injuring me and the Nationalists cause. It may catch unwary people, but sensible people will despise the authors and spreaders. They remind me of the bid days when poison baits were distributed for wild dogs. 543 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - You know the electors! 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN I knew that the intelligent electors were not to be "gulled " by this sort of " tripe," for i t certainly is only " t r i p e . " It is well known that in New South Wales— I cannot speak for other electorates through.- out Australia;—thes e publications injured the National party very much. 543 KIL 0 0 LYNCH, John Mr Lynch - Immeasurably ! 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN Immeasurably, as the honorable member says. During the elections I asked from the platform and through the press who was likely to be .most injured by these pamphlets, and the answer was very plain to everybody that the National party were the greatest sufferers- Members of that party would be fools to distribute literature of the kind; yet we have the Leader of the Opposition charging the Prime Minister with starting the sectarian cry, because in some interjection he referred to the "green light." I never heard a " thinner " suggestion in my life, and i t is certainly one not worthy of the honorable member for Yarra. There is no necessity to introduce these sectarian issues. 543 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - I said so at the time. 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN n d you charged the Prime Minister with starting them. 543 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Of course, he did ! 543 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN I contend that we ought to try to find out by whom these pamphlets and cartoons were circulated, and punish them and I am sure that we shall find it was not the Nationalists. Many of the electors thought that we were responsible, but i t is a sort of thing that I would entirely repudiate. I do not accuse every honorable member opposite of using these means to further their party purposes, because I know that the honorable member for Newcastle, for in stance, and others, would not stoop to such measures. I say unhesitatingly, however, from my own knowledge and judgment, that it was the friends and supporters of honorable members opposite in New South Wales—the Caucuses —wh o spread this literature and made capital out of it. There is no doubt that a resort to sectarian disputes is despicable, and fortunately does not count for much where I come from. We can .tolerate each other, and allow every man to go to his own warm spot in his own way. That reminds me of an old pensioner for whom I obtained a pension, and who, in thanking me, said, " God bless you; may you have a warm spot in this world, and. the next world, too." Surely we ought to be able to fight our battles on principle, quite apart from dirty business of this kind. I do not believe that any decent Labour man was behind the movement, but, emphatically, it injured the National party, and i t was evident from the very commencement that it would do so. Under the circumstances, as I say, i t is absurd to charge the National party with having anything to do with the business. I hope we shall find out, and punish, the guilty parties. While I do not believe that this move had its origin in the Labour party, I am of opinion that, when friends and supporters of that party found out. the effect of the pamphlets, they obtained special numbers, and distributed them ad lib. It is notorious that this literature was always posted to the supporters of the National party. 544 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson - Not in Queensland. 544 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN n New South Wales i t was. 544 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Nor in New South Wales. 544 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN t any rate, that was my experience, and a Commission of inquiry would ascertain the truth. The attempt to fasten the responsibility on the Prime Minister only shows how vindictive honorable members opposite are becoming. It seems to be a perfect mania on their part to ascribe every trouble to that honorable gentleman, of whom, however, I am not a champion, for I am ready to "clout" him, or any one else, when I think they are behaving badly. In my opinion, this literature was distributed for the purpose of injuring the National party I represent, and, therefore, I resent the insinuation that we had anything to do with it. I have no doubt that a properly-constituted inquiry would prove that the movement was handled by the enemies of the National party in New South Wales. 544 5.40 KYV South Sydney 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY .- After the remarks of the honorable member for Eden-Monaro, I feel quite confident that the House will appoint a Royal Commission. I lay no charge against honorable members opposite. In my own electorate I took no notice of the pamphlets, which I do not think affected us as a party one way or the other. Efforts were made to injure the Labour party by declaring that it was dominated by Rome, and the people were asked whether they were prepared to trust members who were controlled by the Pope, and so forth ; and while the pamphlets may not have injured the Labour party, the intention was to interfere with that party's chances at the election. If, as stated, the National party have suffered, there can be no harm in instituting an inquiry with the object of sheeting the blame home to the proper people. I hope that in Australia we shall never reach the position that we find in Ireland, where the people are rent in twain by sectarianism, but that in all future elections pamphlets of this kind will not be permitted to go through the post. In this young country we have no room for sectarian bigots who desire to stir up strife amongst the people. In political matters we can afford to be generous to one another; but if the sectarian feeling is allowed to grow we shall find ourselves confronted, not with political, but with religious, issues. I remind honorable members opposite that, while they may have won at the last election, we may win the next, and that the party which relies for success on sectarianism can last only for a short time. No matter what a man's religion may be, he ought to be judged on his political policy and character. I do not happen to be a member of the Church of Rome, but I have many good friends who are, and I find them as honorable and as straightforward as any in the community. I resent the fact that such insults should be thrown at our follow citizens, for there is no doubt that if we allow 25 per cent. of our population to be thus treated, there will be created a bad feeling which will be very hard to eradicate. I appeal to both sides of the House to allow a Royal Commission to be appointed - either a Commission consisting of the Chief Justice, or an unpaid body of men - for we really ought to get at the bottom of this matter, with a view to preventing any recurrence of such issues in the future. The Prime Minister and his colleagues, and the members of the National party, say they had nothing to do with the issue of these documents. 544 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr FINLAYSON Nor had we 544 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr RILEY Quit e so; and, under the circumstances, we ought to have a unanimous vote in favour of a Royal Commission. The guilty parties, who ought really to be treated as criminals, did not undertake this kind of work for the good of the country, but because they could make money out of i t ; and I trust that honorable members opposite will follow the honorable member for Perth and the honorable member for Henty in supporting the motion. This will take the party sting out of any Commission appointed, and result in a report which will have a satisfactory effect in future elections. 545 KIL Werriwa 0 0 LYNCH, John Mr LYNCH .-While I feel that a great grievance exists in consequence of the publication of these pernicious pamphlets, I think the discussion has within it a strong element of insincerity. I am proud of my race and creed at all times, but I must say .that I felt humiliated during my campaign ' when I had these things pushed under my nose by my co-religionists, and some of the members of the old Labour party. I only discovered the circulation of this literature when the campaign was half over, and I never opened my mouth regarding it at any time - the thing was really too dirty to refer to. We have very small pretensions to be considered a democratic community while it is possible for gutter-sniping tactics of this sort to affect us. When our very existence, involving not only our religious liberties, but our every other prized liberty, is in the balance; could there be suggested a greater reflection on . our democracy than the idea that tactics of this kind can really settle the fate of parties and principles so vital to us? It is true that even in this fair land we have literary prostitutes engaged in their despicable work - human blowflies not content with battening on their natural element, filth, but equally ready tq pounce on what is pure and true. Unfortunately this sort of thing has its effects. We find men on all sides who have such a poor conception of higher principles that they are willing to descend into the gutter, and plant in the minds and hearts of ignorant! but honest people feelings of antagonism and antipathy towards those with whom they should be standing shoulder to shoulder in the preservation of all our rights and liberties, and the material prosperity of the country. That sort of thing is going on now, and it will never be extinct, even if we appointed a dozen Royal Commissions, until education Has made such progress that no self-respecting man would connect himself with this sort of thing under any circumstances. My co-religionists in hundreds were influenced by this literature to vote against me, but I would rather have to dig out rabbits for a living than be elected by the votes of those to whom such filth could appeal. The Government of which I am a supporter should provide for an inquiry to purge itself of the charge made against it. Let us find out who circulated this literature, and who paid for its circulation. It seems to me that money can command anything. But if our Democracy is to attain the ideals that we seek, it is essential to purge ourselves of sectarianism. When in Victoria a dominant and militant body were excommunicating from the Labour party a section of Catholics because of the opinions they dared to hold I was in arms against that, as I was against the action of the same body when it expelled the ablest and best members of the party for holding other opinions. Whether literature of this kind be issued with the object of gaining political power or with the desire to injure the religious feelings of others, we should prevent it. I trust that an inquiry will sheet home the blame to the persons responsible for what we deplore, and that our desire for liberty and toleration will have a foundation on actual fact. I believe that there are criminal zealots on both sides of politics, and I hope that those who have been responsible for the publication of this literature will be discovered, and the rest of the community purged of the gross reflections upon it which their action has caused. 545 5.53 KX9 Newcastle 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS .- I agree with much that was said by the last speaker. The 'demand for the stoppage of the circulation of sectarian literature of the kind complained of comes not from a small section of the people, but from a very large body of the community, who feel that they were grievously insulted by what occurred during the last electoral campaign. The circulation of political literature at election times is to me not a matter of much concern. During nearly a quarter of a century of political experience I have known such literature to be circulated by every political party; but sectarianism should not have been allowed by the powers that be to intrude into the recent contest. Under the War Precautions Act the Government had full authority to prevent that. This is, I suppose, the freest Democracy in the world, and no more serious harm could be done to it than to divide our people -with religious dissension. In this country, persons of every creed are inter-married, and religion is in no sense a party matter. Any political party that sought advantage by stirring up sectarian feeling should be sent into political oblivion. We know who printed the publications of which complaint has been made, but there is some question as to who distributed them. The distribution cannot be considered as blameable as the original production. 546 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER It was in the distribution1 that the whole fault lay. 545 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS It is the originator of a crime who is the guilty man. If the person against whom a crime was directed found i t possible to turn its consequences against the criminal, he would not be to blame. 546 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - But surely the man who circulates counterfeit money is as bad as the coiner. 546 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS My contention is that if a man issued a document in order to injure me, and I found that I could, by giving i t a still further circulation, injure him, I could not be considered as guilty as he. I do not care who was to blame in this matter; the fact remains that the circulation of this literature was permitted under the censorship, and that i t is still continuing. If the circulation of this literature is injuring recruiting, as we all believe, the Government should ascertain who is responsible for its circulation, and should put an end to i t . Members of every creed have volunteered tq serve at the Front, and are fighting side-by side, or have been buried side by side. I have seen cemeteries where the names on the graves show that men of all creeds sleep beneath, and, to me, i t seems a crime and a shame that the distribution of literature calculated to divide the fathers and mothers of the boys who have won fame for this country on the battlefields of France and Turkey should be permitted. Whether a Commission be appointed or not, the Government should find out who were responsible for the circulation of this literature, and, furthermore, should at once prevent its further circulation, treating i t as they would treat disloyal literature. Surely nothing could be more disloyal than to circulate publications like those that have been referred to this afternoon; nothing could be more harmful to the community. Yet those who printed this literature are in receipt of Government money for work done. The Government has patronized those whose publications have done more to harm recruiting than anything else that has taken place since the war began. I . hope that things will be cleared up, and that at least while the war is on, the circulation of everything that tends to damage recruiting will be stopped. 546 KYD Grey 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON . - I saw in. my district one of the circulars to which reference has been made, and during the electoral campaign repudiated it from every platform. I found, however, that this literature was being circulated wholly among Roman Catholics, which is a very significant and damning fact. I did not meet one Protestant who had received it- 546 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins But i t was all printed by one person. 546 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON It was printed by Mr. Critchley Parker, I understand, and1 the National' party executive in Victoria was approached to authorize its circulation, but, to the honour and credit of that body, i t must be remembered that i t turned' down the proposition. Who was really responsible for the circulation of these pamphlets ? Had I wished to use them to gain votes; I would not have sent them to the Roman Catholic electors in my division; i t would have been to the Protestants that I would have sent them. Labour candidates, because of the circulation of this literature, got thousands of votes which they would not otherwise have got. In my election, many electors turned clean round in the fortnight preceding the poll. 546 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Who was responsible for the original circulation? 546 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON I am speaking of the circulation during the Federal election campaign, which influenced thousands of electors to vote for the Labour candidate. Roman Catholics have written to me to say that this literature did the National cause considerable injury. 546 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - How many "wowsers"' went the other way? 546 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON The honorable member should be the last to- speak about "wowsers." I was surprised to hear the honorable member for Brisbane vaunt his love of liberty of conscience. Many of us have had to suffer because we exercised liberty of conscience. There was no such thing allowed by the party to which the honorable member belongs. Notwithstanding that I was instructed by the executive of the United Labour party of South Australia to recognise the Prime Minister as my leader, I , and twenty-eight others, were declared disloyal for doing so.. I referred to the matter during the last Parliament, and, if necessary, can again produce the resolutions. We were declared disloyal because we voted for conscription. 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - Declared disloyal to what? 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON To the party 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - So you are. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON The honorable member knows that at the conclusion of the famous conference at which conscription, was dealt with, the president ruled that we had a free hand in regard to conscription, as there was no plank in the party platform regarding it. He ruled that we were free to express ourselves for or against conscription. Within fourteen days of that Conference twenty nine of us were declared disloyal to the party. The officials straightway took a plebiscite, out of its proper order, and, with the brand of disloyalty upon us, they called for nominations. Those are the gentlemen who ask for liberty of conscience ! My contention was, and is, that each member of the party should have had perfect freedom to vote as he pleased on the conscription issue, because it was not part of the platform. The action taken by the State Conference was unconstitutional, because that body had no jurisdiction over members of the Commonwealth Parliament. 547 KES 0 0 FALKINER, Franc Mr Falkiner - They wanted the job for their fellow-men. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON Ther e is no doubt that that was their object, and they reckoned that they had me and others " in the bag," but they did not succeed. The lowest thing they did, in my opinion, was to circulate these pamphlets, and they succeeded by that means in winning a large number of votes. 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - Where? 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON In South Australia. On .the night prior to the election this literature was placed under the doors, even under the doors of convents. 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - Well, you support a Royal Commission, and prove that statement. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON I will support a Royal Commission to send the honorable member to the Pront, where he ought to have been long ago. The honorable member went about the country taking credit" for having enlisted, and he has been in camp ever since last October. 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - Did I not follow your advice? Then, why have the Government not sent me away? 547 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, The Mr SPEAKER The honorable member for Adelaide i? out of order. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON I never advised the honorable member to remain so long in Australia after he enlisted. I urged him to enlist, and felt proud when he did so. 547 KEX 0 0 FINLAYSON, William Mr Finlayson Do you say that he is trying to avoid going to the Front? 547 L1T 0 0 YATES, George Mr Yates - Are you coming down to the level of Boyd and Palmer? 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON Even if I got down to that level I would still be on a higher plane than the honorable member. 547 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, The Mr SPEAKER Several times 0 I have called for order, and I wish honorable members to understand that when I do that I expect silence to be observed. I do not wish to resort to extreme measures if I can avoid it, but I will be obeyed. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON I do not care a tinker's dump if an inquiry is agreed to. But if this matter is investigated, honorable members opposite will be sorry. 547 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine Then why do you want to prevent us investigating this matter? 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON The honorable member ought to be the last to talk about anything. A man of his physique, who says he will not fight for his country and will not ask anybody else to enlist, ought not to be in this Parliament. He is not above taking the King's money, but he is too cowardly to fight for his country. I do not know him; I do not want to know him. 547 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine - But you will know me before I go out of this Parliament. 547 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON The honorable member is not in his Labour Volunteer Army in Broken Hill now. He will find that this House is a place different from that from which he has come. I do not know how he has the face to stand before Britishers. 548 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, The Mr SPEAKER Order! 548 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Look at the serried ranks on the Ministerial side. 548 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON The honorable member is another specimen; he has said that if a gun were placed in his hand he would not shoot. Honorable members interjecting, 548 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, The Mr SPEAKER The next time an honorable member interjects immediately after I have called for order I shall name him. I ask honorable members to cease interrupting, and I ask the honorable member for Grey to refrain from making personal references which provoke interjections. 548 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON —M y remarks have been provoked by the interjections. I did not wish to attack anybody, bub I will not take my gruel lying down. I was about to say that I am indifferent as' to whether or not a Royal Commission is appointed. If there is a possibility of stopping the circulation of this objectionable literature under the War Precautions Act, tne Government ought to bake action; but I wish all speeches and publications which are calculated to do injury to recruiting to be stopped, no matter how high the dignitary from whom they emanate. Let all be placed on the same level—Arch bishop Mannix, the Trades Hall, and Critchley Parker-^—an d let us suppress all papers that allow this offensive matter to be printed. That is the best action we can take in the interests of the country. 548 KLM Melbourne 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY .- I desire to approach this question with all seriousness. Looking back over a long political life, I believe there was more bigotry and sectarianism introduced in the last election than in any other in my recollection. That was so, not only in Victoria, but in other States that I have visited. What has happened in the last few months makes one wonder whether this accursed sectarianism, which is the flaming sword of what we call bigotry, will ever be eliminated. I take it that the honorable member for Grey wishes the light to be thrown on this matter, the truth found, and the fault exposed. If so, he will vote for the appointment of a Royal Commission; but if he is supporting the issue of this scurrilous matter - and I should be sorry to believe that of him - he will vote against the proposal. What were these pamphlets? Those who take an interest in caricature must have smiled when they found the authors diving back into the early part of last century to find something with which to lash a section of the community. They went back to the time of Daniel O' Connell, when no Catholic in Ireland had a vote. Very few people in Ireland have votes now, because, according to the latest issue of Whittaker' s Almanac, only one man in three in Ireland has a vote. Critchley Parker is a man of great mentality. 548 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER Do you know him? 548 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY I do; and apart from this sectarian question, I have at times benefited by being in his company. 548 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - You mean that he has lucid moments? 548 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY In the words of Mrs. Wings of the Cabbage Patch, he has not prayed fervently enough to the Lord to prevent him " going sour." 548 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - He is paid; that is the trouble. 548 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY I should be sorry to think that filthy lucre prompted him to do this work. When we see such bigotry in the community, we cannot wonder that the great King Akbar tried to have only one religion in his domain. In his lips Tennyson placed these eloquent' words— I tremble at the Moslem and the sword, I shudder at the Christian and the stake. On one occasion in the State Parliament I helped to get Sir George Turner out of a difficulty by suggesting a meeting of representatives of all religious denominations in order to arrive at an agreement on a simple prayer to be read in the State schools. The then Premier of Victoria thanked me for my suggestion, but what was the result? The conference culminated in a book of large dimensions issued at a cost of 18s. Like King Akbar, I then lost all hope of composing religious differences; but I never thought to see religious bigotry become so active and bitter as. i t . has been in the last few months. The Prime Minister will admit that no honoratle member of the House has defended bigotry and sectarianism. The mover of the amendment was only too willing to accept the suggestion of the honorable member for Perth that a Judge of the Supreme Court of Victoria should be appointed as a Royal Commissioner. I think I voice the sentiments of a majority of those who hold the faith in which I was brought up when I say that we should have no objection to any decent member of a Protestant faith, whether he belongs to the Anglican, the Presbyterian, or the Methodist Church, being appointed to inquire into this matter. We do hot wish any bigot to be appointed. We desire an inquiry that will discover who printed this matter, and who circulated i t ; and if punishment is due, let i t be administered. Nobody in this Chamber has defended the action of Mr. Critchley Parker. Why, then, should there be an objection to a Commission of inquiry?Let us throw light upon this matter. There is no higher religion than the truth. Let us know the truth, so that we may prevent, the repetition of these offences in the future, because there is no greater curse than sectarianism and bigotry. As one who has reverence for the faith! taught at his mother's knee, I have never pointed the finger of scorn ab any religion, although sometimes I have had to criticise strongly the members of various denominations. I have always hoped that 'this century would see the last of the curse of sectarianism and bigotry, and also of war. I look through the eyes of that great French poeb, Victor Hugo, a portion of whose works I have had the honour to translate, and I hope that his visions will be realized. Speaking of this century in which we are permitted to live, , but in which he, like Moses on Mount Pisgah, in sight of the Promised Land, was not destined to live, he s a id - All bail to that coming. century whose dawn in rainbow hues of glory is upon us, when war wil be dead, when poverty will be dead, when kings will be dead, and when bigotry will be dead, but when men shall live; when for all there will be but one country, , and that country the whole, .broad, teeming earth; when for all there will be but one hope, and that hope the widest heavens. All hail to that coming century which shall hold our children, and which pur children shall inherit. What a glorious day it will he when bigotry is dead. As the honorable member for Newcastle has said, our religions are made for us before we are born. What honorable member' has been converted from, the religion of his parents? The Ministry have only to say the word. Let them choose the Commission. We do not ask for any choice in the matter. All we ask is that .there shall be a Commission in which honorable members from both sides and the people can have confidence, and then such a blow will be dealt at sectarianism and bigotry that, in years to come, the people will rejoice at the common sense displayed by this Parliament in coming to the decision which we hope to see made to-night. 549 K6S Wide Bay 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER .- In my political career I have always denounced sectarianism. It is a matter that should not be introduced into politics. Holding these views, I am certainly inf favour of this matter being settled, and settled, I hope, once and for all. I shall support the amendment .put forward by the honorable member for Perth. During the recent elections hundreds of the electors of Wide Bay, men who had voted for me time after time in the State elections, turned against me, because they said that, the Nationalist party was responsible for the circulation of Critchley Parker's literature to which reference has been made to-day. Of course, I denied it, and I had every reason to do so, because I recognised that if the pamphlets had been circulated by the Nationalist party, they would not have been sent to the people to whom they were sent in my electorate - the majority of these diabolical circulars were sent to Roman Catholics. Not a twentieth part of them went to the Protestants in Wide Bay. I found afterwards that these men to whom I have referred, in very many cases, got these pamphlets through the circulation of them by the Labour party. For example, a railway guard who delayed his train in order to distribute them at different spots, was a strong Labour man. Another strong Labour agitator not only circulated the pamphlets, but also put his initials on the back of them. If a Royal Commission is appointed, I trust that this man will be called upon to show where he got them, and why he circulated them. 549 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS Did he print them? 549 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER It is a strange thing that a Labour newspaper could say a week before these things were issued that their readers should look out for the circulation of such literature, and that i t would appear week before the elections. It did appear a week before the elections. The circulars, were not placed in open envelopes, or addressed on the back, as one honorable member has said. They were placed in closed envelopes. I had two addressed to me, and I have them in my possession now. A man who circulated those pamphlets, knowing of their offensive character, is just as bad as one who hears a libel and circulates it. It is just as well that we should get at the bottom of this matter, and see who is to blame. I told my electors that I had nothing to do with the circulars, and that neither the Liberal party nor the National party would have sanctioned such things. The Prime Minister denied any knowledge of the matter, and the secretaries of many of our National organizations stated in the press that they could not be responsible for the circulation of any literature that did not appear above their signatures. What further proof could we have than those statements? Yet some people had the idea so driven into their minds that these pamphlets emanated from the National party, and they were so irritated by what was contained in the literature circulated, that they refused to vote for any National candidate, though at previous elections they had always voted for the men standing in the interests of the National party. I told them that I intended ,to support the party which I considered the best for the community as a whole, and that I was not to be drawn from the track, even if they wished to be so drawn away, by literature of such a character. I told them that if they chose to be drawn away by it, I did not seek their votes. In one district I was asked whether it was not true that the National party were responsible for the money 'which provided for the circulation of the pamphlets. My reply was that I did not believe for a moment that the National party would put their money into, or recognise in the slightest degree, literature of such a kind. I do not care what a man's religion is. I hold with any man who practises what he believes to be right, and respects the religion he professes. We are all taught that without charity we cannot be saved. I have never found a bigoted man who could be called charitable. Sitting suspended from 6.S0 to 745 p.m. 549 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER I have no respect for those who have not the courage of their religious convictions, and I have a supreme contempt for men who sit upon the political rail. Most people have been taught their' religion at their mother's knees, and whatever their religion may be, I do not think there should be any criticism, or any discussion, as to whether they are right or wrong. We are taught to judge, not, that we be not judged. It is not our province to say who is right, and who is wrong. Some of my dearest friends are adherents of several different churches, and I should be very sorry to say, in respect of their religious beliefs, one word that would in any way hurt their feelings. Just before the House was dissolved, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister whether he intended to censor any literature that might be issued in connexion with the then forthcoming elections, and the answer he received from the right honorable gentleman on the floor of the House was that he would not. I should be very sorry to think that, in putting that question, the Leader of the Opposition had any thought of literature of this kind being circulated during the campaign. But thinking over the matter subsequently, it seemed to me that he was tying down the Prime Minister to a promise not .to censor something the circulation of which was contemplated. We on this side have nothing to fear from the most thorough investigation of this question, and I feel that if the investigation be carried out as it should be, more particularly in Queensland, it will lead to disclosures of which our honorable friends opposite will be very muchashamed. 550 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - Let us have them. 550 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER n these circumstances, I welcome the amendment, and shall certainly support it. 550 K4F Barrier 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE . - I desire to support the amendment for the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the issue and distribution of this sectarian literature during the election campaign. I do so, not on the basis of the faith or religion that has. been attacked in these publications, but on the ground that they were circulated with the sole object of causing dissension amongst the working classes. ' I do not know by whom they were circulated, but I do know that no one connected with the Political Labour League on the Barrier had anything to do with their distribution there. These pamphlets and newspapers were printed and circulated for one purpose only- 551 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr Corser To down the Nationalists 551 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE That may be the honorable member's opinion, but my view is that they were printed and circulated with the sole object of creating dissension in the ranks of the workers. Prom time immemorial - a s long as there have been religions—attempt s have been made on the part of those who profit from dissensions in the ranks of the workers, to divide them by means of religious differences. Again and again attempts have been made to bolster up religious prejudices amongst the workers, with the object of preventing .them from coming together. It is from that stand-point that I approach this matter. I have the greatest respect and toleration for every faith or "ism." It is a man's own private concern as to whether he shall worship at this altar or that, or at no altar at all. 551 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - Does " ism " include anarchism ? 551 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE If the honorable member has studied the subject of anarchy, he must know what it means. The literature of which complaint has been made represents an attack, not only on the faith of a large majority of the Irish people, but upon Irishmen generally, whether they be Protestants or Roman Catholics, or profess no religious belief whatever. Here is an extract from one of the pamphlets printed by Mr. Critchley Parker:— In fact, the sufferings of Ireland have not been above but very markedly below the average; thirdly, such wrongs as she has suffered have been all, without exception, brought upon her by her own treachery and cowardly brutality. Let us consider each of these three points. That the wrongs of Ireland are in the past is admitted by every unprejudiced observer. It is admitted inferentially by the Irish malcontents themselves when they invariably seek for a pretext for their treacheries! in the wrongs of the past. In point of fact,, for many years past Ireland has been the spoilt darling of the United Kingdom. It has had laws passed in favour of its peasantry that the farmers in Great Britain would give a great deal to have extended to them. Why, .then, do. the Irish always turn to the wrongs of the past? ' The answer is, firstly, that they are stuffed up in their priest guided schools with a history deliberately falsified in the interests of the Catholic Church in order to keep them Roman Catholic, and to keep them dissatisfied with Great Britain for fear that Catholicism might be undermined; and secondly, that they are a people given to living in the past, a people with little or no reasoning faculty, but with an immense amount of vindictiveness, and a people also who have a curious liking for the feeling that they are suffering injustice. They are not really happy unless they can see that they are suffering some grievous wrong; and as they cannot find any injustice in their treatment to-day, they try to persuade themselves, that they are still suffering from the injustices bf the past. Now for the second point. Get an Irishman with all that power of insincere eloquence which is characteristic of the race, and which mokes them all, or on enormously large percentage of them, " playboys " of the Christy-Mahon type to hold forth upon the historic wrongs of "dear old Ireland," and then compare all that he has said (at least fifty per cent, of which may be discounted) with the story of Servia, the" story of Poland, the story of Prance, and the story' of Spain in the grip, of its beloved Church in its palmy days, the story of the Jews, the story of the natives of Peru, the story of almost any country and any people that has played a big part in history, and the woes of Ireland wilr fade away into- the trivial things that they always have been - the trivial woes of an essentially trivial people. And so the article continues. Although the basis of the attack is claimed to be the influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, it cannot be denied that i t is an attack on the Irish as a race. It accuses them of being treacherous, unreliable, disloyal, and of having no real grievance. It is a remarkable fact that, as pointed out by the honorable member for Brisbane, the pamphlets and newspapers complained of were circulated throughout New South Wales in the first place in connexion with the State elections. 551 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - What newspapers? I did not see any of them. 551 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE I am referring to the Statesman and Mining Standard edited by Critchley Parker. 552 KYA 0 0 PIGOTT, Henry Mr Pigott - But the honorable member spoke of newspapers. The newspaper he has named is circulated in Victoria, not in New South Wales. 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE n this particular instance it happens to have crossed the Border. It was circulated throughout the length and breadth of New South Wales during the last State elections. As the honorable member for Brisbane has said, when the Federal elections took place, Critchley Parker pointed to the great victory that had been achieved as the result of the distribution of this scurrilous literature, and urged that as an added reason for its further dissemination. The injustice of the whole thing, to my mind, is that a man should be permitted to print and circulate this literature for the purpose of creating religious bigotry and hatred amongst the working section of the community, with the object of dividing the workers, destroying their organization, and thus benefiting the people most interested in bringing them to loggerheads. No man will say that this literature is likely to have a good effect on any man born in Ireland or of Irish parents. It cannot be said that its circulation is likely to lead to harmonious relations between Irishmen and those born in other parts of the United Kingdom. It was circulated with the sole object of creating discord. On the one hand we see people being constantly prosecuted under the War Precautions Act for making remarks, regarding the huge profits that, are being reaped during the present war. When people attack profits, prosecutions follow; but when other people attack sections of the community who have been born in a different land, or profess a different faith, no prosecutions are launched. More harm was done from a recruiting stand-point — and I am no apologist for that — by the distribution of these pamphlets and cartoons than ever was done by the statements made by Brookfield and others. As I said before, we find, the Barrier Truth being prosecuted for publishing opinions that could in no way be construed as being half as offensive or half as effective as these publications; and Labour men are continually proceeded against for making statements, while other men and other newspapers are permitted to make statements infinitely more damaging. 552 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - Would you like to see all prosecuted who make statements detrimental to recruiting? 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE No. 552 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - I thought not! 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE No t for making statements that could be construed by the honorable member as being prejudicial to recruiting. 552 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - I did not say that 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE The honorable member wishes me to say something that he can possibly use against me or the party of which I happen to be a member. 552 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr Orchard - Are you against recruiting ? 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE I do not wish to burke the question; I am not against recruiting, because I believe that there should be no interference with the man who thinks i t his duty to go to the war; but there should be no compulsion on the man who does not think i t is 'his duty to go. 552 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Is that the reason you organized the Labour Volunteer Army on. the Barrier? 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE I shall tell the honorable member the reason. The people who sent me here did so in order that I might express in this House opinions that I have expressed outside. While I am in this assembly, whether it pleases honorable members or not, my duty is to represent the people who elected me. I am not going to burke that position, because I am prepared .to stand by anything I say here, just as I was prepared to stand by anything I said outside. The honorable member for Grey, before the adjournment for dinner, reflected on me personally, because of the fact that I had not volunteered. 552 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Because you said you would not volunteer, and that you would not ask anybody else to do so. 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE That is my position. 552 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - You said you would not fight for your country. 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE I did not make that statement. 552 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is the effect of your statement. 552 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE The statement I made I am prepared to stand by. The Labour Volunteer Army at Broken Hill, as the honorable member interjected- 553 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is the "won't fight army." 553 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE No ; it is the army that is causing so much fight that the honorable member is very nervous about it. 553 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That is what was said before the last election. 553 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE The Labour Volunteer Army is an anti-conscription organization, which was formed prior to the referendum in October last, for the purpose of fighting conscription, and it has done good work in that direction. I have no wish to deny my association with the Labour Volunteer Army, because I am proud of the fight that it put up at Broken Hill, and proud to have been a member of it. 553 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - What was the object of its formation! 553 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE I have told you the object. So far as my own personal position is concerned I have not to ask the honorable member for Grey, or any other honorable member of this Parliament, what my opinions shall be, nor, having certain opinions, have I to ask their leave to express them. The honorable member for Grey may have done much for the Labour movement in his time. I do not know whether he has done so or not, and I am not here to say that he has not; but, for myself, I am only a young man, thirty-one years of age. I came to this country when four years of age, and I have worked for my living from my thirteenth year up to the present time. I have never lived on the Labour movement, despite the charges that were' made during the recent campaign by the Prime Minister and others. During the whole of my years in Australia the Labour movement has not benefited me personally, with the exception of placing me in the position I now occupy. I have expressed my views, and I have worked for my living; and if by any chance I should be removed from this Parliament, I shall be prepared to do the same again. I shall also be prepared to stand by those opinions which placed me in this assembly, and which put me in other places outside Parliament, as the Prime Minister may remember, if he recalls the coal strike, when Bowling, and others were gaoled. I am not going to change my views because I happen to find myself in this Parliament. I did not come here for the purpose of securing a reputation as a nice sort of gentleman, affable with both sides of the House. The people who placed me here did so in order that I might voice their opinion as to what action should be taken by this Parliament. They sent me here because they thought they 'could trust me to express the aspirations of the Labour movement inside Parliament, just as they had trusted me to express them outside. As to my position, so far as recruiting and conscription are concerned, I believe that all wars are caused by conflicts between the various nations to secure markets. I cannot help seeing that huge profits are being made out of the war, and that the patriotism of others is being profitably exploited by people in this and other countries. I realize that those who, because of their age or for other reasons, are what in Broken Hill we term the "Would-to-God Brigade"—wh o boast of their patriotism, and wish they were young so that they might go to the trenches —ar e to-day making much profit out of the blood and suffering of the men at the Front and their dependants. Let me tell honorable members opposite that many who have gone to the war and fought, and have come back, are my personal friends; and they are not those who are squealing —i t is not from them that the criticism comes, but from "the stay-at-home, profiteering patriots. 553 KMC 0 0 ORCHARD, Richard Mr Orchard - This is all very interesting, but what has it to do with the motion ? 553 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr CONSIDINE It has this to do with the motion: that I do not propose to sit down silent while honorable members ask for the reasons of my attitude. They have asked for those reasons, and I am prepared to give them. It has been stated by honorable members on the other side that none of them had anything to do with the raising of the sectarian cry. The Prime Minister, in the course of his election campaign at Bendigo, when dealing with Mr. Brookfield, Adela Pankhurst, and myself, is reported to have gone to some length in explaining to his constituents that I am blessed with the name of Michael Patrick Considine. The honorable gentleman knows his reason for emphasizing the fact that I possess those names; and honorable members may judge whether it was for the purpose of pointing out that I was either Irish born, of Irish extraction, or a member of the Roman Catholic faith. I do not know myself, and perhaps the Prime Minister may explain; but I say that statements of that character lend colour to the belief that certain men, at any rate, were interested in raising the sectarian issue. I know that during the campaign at Broken Hill the local organ representing the National interest was published day after day with leading articles raising the same cry, and also raising the Sinn Fein cry. These people were allowed to publish such scandalous stuff with impunity, while other men are persecuted as soon as they touch the subject. The whole thing calls for a Commission of inquiry. I do not care whether i t is discovered that honorable members on this side, or anywhere else, are responsible for the dissemination of this literature— whether or not Labour leagues or unions are found to be guilty. Whoever is engaged in the nefarious business of trying to stir up religious animosity with a view to dividing the workers, I am against all such effort, and will support any course of action which tends bo prevent it . 554 DQC Bendigo NAT Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I have not had the advantage of listening to this debate from its inception, but if what I have listened to is a sample of what I have missed, I arn not sorry that circumstances prevented me from being present. Of all the impudent and audacious efforts ever made in this or any other Parliament to fasten on their opponents the sins and guilt that belong to the accusers, this is the most audacious and the most impudent. Those gentlemen, who are now posing as the victims of the methods to which they take exception, wish the public to believe that they .themselves went through the election dressed in spotless garb, their bro.-s garlanded with emblems of purity, and that their methods were unstained by slander, abuse, ot vile innuendo. Their conduct, it would appear, was such as to be a very pattern for lesser men to follow. They fall upon this literature of Mr. Critchley Parker as if it was a thing foul beyond the power of words to describe - a thing against which their very souls revolt, and but for which they would have won the election. Sir, this is so much canting humbug. Why, I say deliberately that there is not a sink of iniquity that they did not bottom, not a term of foul abuse to which they did not resort, not a device at their disposal which they did not employ. They denounce the literature as sectarian ; but they have omitted to mention that before Mr. Critchley Parker appeared on the scene a banner-bearer from the other camp carried the oriflamme of sectarianism throughout the country, inviting the disloyalists to rally round his flag. This man, for political and sectional purposes, abused and debased his high position. Now, those who sought to shelter under his wing, and found too late that it was one from which the feathers had moulted, come whining about the sectarian literature of Mr. Critchley Parker. Having been beaten with ignominy by an indignant people, they ask for the appointment of a Royal Commission into this matter as though this literature, and not .their own conduct, was the cause of their defeat. These gentlemen would have the public believe their methods during the campaign were above criticism. Sir, the truth is, they were beneath contempt. I have a file of extracts from the journals which supported them, but I have too much respect for this Chamber to lay them on the table. Their press reeked with abuse of me, and they lived on this vilification during the election. Had I been a Lucifer dipped in the seven hells, I could not have been so bad as .they represented me to be, nor has my life been long enough to have committed one-twentieth part of the crimes with which they charged me. Now, having had the worst of the contest, they complain of Mr. Critchley Parker's literature, but for which, they, say, they would have won the election. Let me now say a word on these cartoons. So far as Mr. Critchley Parker's loyalty to the Empire is concerned, I respect him, and would have honorable members of the Labour party emulate him; but, so far as he is responsible for raising, the sectarian banner, I condemn him.. What is more, I condemned him during the election campaign, and did what I could to suppress the literature about -which complaint was made. This I did in terms so emphatic and unambiguous as to leave no room for misunderstanding as to my views concerning it. This is what I said at Bridgewater - I have endeavoured to fight my political battles treating as sacrosanct the religions actions of my fellow citizens. I do so now, and I want to say authoritatively that I have noticed with considerable pain that certain literature is being circulated in this district, and throughout the rest of Australia, which is giving offence to certain of my fellow citizens of the Roman Catholic faith. I care nothing what the religion of a man is. He is free to worship God in any way he pleases. That is one of those privileges that our fathers have won for us, and I should be the last man to infringe that right. So I want to repudiate this literature, and say that it is as offensive to me as to those who belong to the Roman Catholic Church. This literature can serve no useful purpose in this campaign. It misunderstands entirely the issues with which the people are confronted. This campaign has nothing at all to do with religion. It has everything to do with principles, political, economic, and national. It is a question whether a man is for Australia or against her. I do not deny that there are some men in Australia who are not loyal to Australia; but the fact that they are not loyal to Australia has nothing to do with their religion. Therefore, I want emphatically to repudiate this literature, and I will see, so far as I am able, that Australia is purged of it for the rest of this contest. Subsequently, Archbishop Mannix, speaking of the Critchley Parker literature, the circulation of which the Labour party now denounce, said that - He was glad to hear that the Labour party in Bendigo had been wise enough to buy the cartoons and distribute them to the Catholic people and every honest man in Bendigo. My reply was - and I now repeat it - that that was a shameful and abominable thing to do. It would have been dishonorable in a Protestant, but it was contemptible and treacherous in a man professing the religion, of the Archbishop. What shall we say of men who, to gain a political or sectional end, distribute literature which insults their co-religionists? In the repudiation that I have read, I stated that I would take action, and I instructed the Solicitor-General to notify Mr. Critchley Parker that under no circumstances would this literature be permitted to be circulated. But, as I told the honorable member for Hume, in reply to a question which he put to me in the House, there is no law in force in Australia under which this literature could be suppressed. It could be suppressed only by the exercise of our powers under the War Precautions Act, and therefore, short of raiding the office, nothing could have been done regarding it. Now, will any one say that this literature prejudiced recruiting ? It was an appeal to sectarianism, and for that I condemned it; but it certainly did not dissuade men from enlisting. On the other hand, it strongly urged them to fight for their country. In any case, in what way does this literature stand out amongst that circulated during the electoral campaign which might affect recruiting ? Had it been the only literature of its kind, I should have been to blame for not having suppressed it. But the pledge I gave in Parliament before the campaign opened is a sufficient answer to the charge now brought against me. I said to honorable members opposite, who strongly urged that no censorship be imposed on free speech, that they might say what they pleased. Honorable members opposite, and those who supported them, took full advantage of that assurance. If there was anything that they could then have said that they did not say, I invite thom to say it now. But they are like squeezed lemons. They exhausted their venom during the campaign, and anything that they might say now would be but the pale ghost of their electoral utterances. They were given a fair run. The Censor did not interfere with them, and there was no depth of abuse to which they could descend into which they did not plunge, so far as personal abuse of myself was concerned. 554 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine What about the Barrier Miner 554 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES The honorable member is the only person in this House who does not represent a majority of the electors. But for a nuke he would not be here, and he is not worth bothering about. This literature which appealed to sectarianism I condemned, and I sincerely regret that i t was circulated. I have lived all my life in peace and harmony with my fellow citizens of all creeds. No man can say that in any contest, or in any place, I have sought to create dissensions between men because of their religion. Amongst my best friends in this country are many Roman Catholics.- But there are men in this country who are grossly disloyal, and to them I am opposed, whether they be Protestants or Catholics. In the Critchley Parker literature, although I severely condemn i t because of its sectarianism, I see nothing to prejudice recruiting, but during the campaign hundreds of statements were made by candidates standing for the Official Labour party -which had that effect. The utterances of the honorable member for Barrier were directed to that end, and even since the election he has made remarks which cannot but have had that effect. Then only recently this resolution was passed by the Trades Hall Council in Melbourne— That, in the opinion of this Council, the Political Labour Council Executive should call upon all Labour members of Parliament to refuse to assist in recruiting. Honorable members have not said a word against this open and direct attempt to prevent men from recruiting, though they have had so much to say about the Critchley Parker publications. Mr. Brookfield, the colleague of the honorable member for Barrier, the man who would " fight like hell " to release the criminals of the Industrial Workers of the World, but will not light for the Empire or Australia, has, like the honorable member for Barrier himself, done all he could to prejudice recruiting. His every utterance has been in that direction. Over and over again he has said that he would do nothing to assist recruiting, and he has opposed it by word and deed. Yet we are asked to accept this motion as evidence of the purity of motive of honorable gentlemen opposite. We are invited to believe that their very souls have been harrowed by this literature in regard to which they want a Royal Commission.' I am not responsible for the literature of which they complain, nor is the Government, nor any organization with which the Government is or was connected. We did not finance its publication, and knew nothing of it, and I took what steps I could take to prevent its circulation. On the other hand, there is clear and abundant evidence that the Official Labour party bought copies of this literature and circulated it, endeavouring to use it to the detriment of the Nationalists. I say, boldly, that the circulation of the Critchley Parker literature lost thousands of votes to the . party to which I belong, and did not gain for it a single vote. The honorable member for Adelaide cannot understand what has happened. He is one of those pliant souls who is willing to do anything within reason to please his constituents, or his party, or his country, and I took the opportunity, during the campaign, to hold him up as the very pattern of what a politician could become if he seriously devoted himself to his profession. The honorable member is very much concerned about what Mr. Critchley Parker has published. I had the support of the honorable member at one time, until his council told him that he must alter his opinion of me, and he altered i t . But he said that that was not to be regarded as a fixed and unchangeable decision; that, if necessary, he could face again in any direction they wished. If , to-morrow, his council told him to pay obeisance to Mr. Critchley. Parker, he would do so. What is more, every other member of the Official Labour party would do so. They would have to do that, or get out. Of course, they are relying on .their executives. They say, "the executives would not do such a t hin g " ; but if the executives did i t they would have to obey. I do not propose to gild the pill any more. This belated and audacious effort to place upon the shoulders of this party responsibility for Critchley Parker's literature will not deceive, for a single moment, the electors of this country. The electors had a fair opportunity of judging between the parties and the methods of the parties. I do not wish to rake up those things which I hope are buried for ever. But if honorable members desire an exhumation order issued, I can exhume from that tomb in which these things .are mow buried such a ghastly array of putrid and decaying political flesh as would horrify even honorable members opposite, who are responsible for. i t . I see before me one seat in particular that is not occupied. I have a brochure by the former occupant which is devoted entirely to myself. Like Australia, with about one person to every square mile, this document has one fact to every forty or f if t y lies, and that fact is so shrouded with inaccuracies as to almost obscure i t from view. In conclusion, I am satisfied to .merely say that there is no need for a Commission to inquire into Critchley Parker's literature. He put his name at the bottom of i t . He issued i t ; he does not, he cannot deny its authorship. If there is a law to deal with this matter, honorable members opposite can set the law in motion; or if they can point to any law that is applicable to this offence, I will set i t in motion for them; but I warn them that if I do that, I will not stop ab the case of Critchley Parker. There is no necessity for a Royal Commission. There is no connexion between the Government and these cartoons. We do not believe in them. Many members on 'this side have publicly repudiated them, and the Government as a whole repudiate them and regret their issue. Mr. Critchley Parker must take the whole responsibility for them, and no double he will do so. That' is the end of the matter. I shall. not be a party to these obvious and childish tactics on the part of the Opposition in their endeavour to shoulder upon the Government, that odium which properly belongs to our opponents. In those circumstances the proposal of the honorable member for Cook ought nob to be agreed to. 557 KNH Melbourne Ports 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS . - As usual, the Prime Minister's speech was characterized by a good deal of wit and a good deal of threatening language. He told us that he would like to see this matter elucidated, and finally intimated that the Government will not agree to any investigation. In asking for a Commission of inquiry, our purpose is to find out in whose interest the putrid pamphlets were issued. I make the statement that they were issued in the interests of the so-called National party and are being so issued at the present .time in connexion with the Macquarie by-election. Here is one pamphlet, which has on it these words - Mr. Doyle, President of the Political Labour (Caucus) Party, New South Wales, said, " The National party's success at the last election was due to the raising of the sectarian issue." Of course it was. Who made it necessary to raise that issue? Critchley Parker, 376 Flinderslane. Critchley Parker has himself answered the question. At the bottom of the pamphlet is the advice, ' ' Vote for McLeod." He is the National candidate. The Prime Minister and the honorable member for Grey fried to saddle the Labour party with responsibility for everything that Archbishop Mannix has said. Every politician knows well that time after time the whole effort of Archbishop Mannix has been thrown against the Labour party in Victoria. He takes his stand on whichever side he thinks fit, and he is quite justified in doing that. We were told that the pamphlets were not issued in the interests of the National party, but that members of 'the Labour party scattered them abroad in order to help their candidates by showing that these publications were an attack on their religion by the National party. Is there anything wrong in showing men how brutal and dirty their own political side can be ? Any political party that would father that rubbish is unfit to be in power in any Parliament. This trouble is political and not religious. I have as much respect for Roman Catholicism as for any other religion, but I have no desire to be a Roman Catholic. And I say that without any repugnance for the Roman Catholic faith. The statement has been made in my electorate that I am a Roman Catholic; that was done for no other purpose than to raise the sectarian issue, and so get .Protestants to vote against me. As a matter of fact, if there is any man in Melbourne Ports who should not receive the Roman Catholic vote, it is myself, for many reasons.- I was born and reared in an atmosphere that is repugnant to Roman Catholics, but I have always allowed every other man to choose his own religion, whilst I choose mine, and when my religion is attacked I fight for it. Throughout the length and breadth of Australia every Orange lodge or ultra Protestant Association, invariably chooses the more conservative of two candidates. Consequently, the Labour movement has always been attacked by the Orange lodges. Like myself, the Prime Minister has suffered from such attacks, and. has been charged with being pro.-Roman. That has been done in order to deprive the Labour movement of the votes of the church-going portion of the Protestant community. That was why the sectarian issue was introduced iu the last election - but not by Critchley Parker. Does any man or woman in the community believe that, on his own initiative and at his own expense, Critchley Parker produced this literature and sent it broadcast for the mere fun of the game? I am quite willing to believe that he is making a business of it, and that is the peculiarity of the Orangeman in Australia. In Ireland the Orange and the Green have been fighting each other for generations, but the Orangeman in Australia is an Orangeman for pounds, shillings, and pence, and nothing else, and is always against the ultra-Democrat, whoever he may be. In the last election he was fighting for the flag, he said. Every utterance of that statement was an act of disloyalty, because ft was not meant. There is always some other purpose behind these actions, and in the last election the object was political gain. It was evident throughout the Prime Minister's speech to-night that he was concerned about the issue of these pamphlets, and during the election he went out of his way at Bridgewater to explain that he was not responsible for them. Why did he take the trouble to make that explanation if he did not realize that there was something heinous in the very fact of their issue? He pretended to wish to have elections purified in future. Every one admits that the sectarian propaganda was a dirty business, and must tend to generate in the community feelings which we, as civilized beings, do not wish engendered in Australia That being so, are we asking too much when we request that there shall be an opportunity given to discover who was responsible for the issue of these offensive pamphlets? The Prime Minister said that no language he could conceive - and that is saying a good deal - would express what he felt regarding those pamphlets. If that is so, why does he not) allow us to go into the matter and find out who did it? Are the National party proposing to hide themselves behind the fact that Archbishop Mannix said that he applauded the Labour Leagues at Bendigo for their action in securing these pamphlets and distributing them ? I do not1 know that he said so, but the. Prime Minister says that he did. We are told that there were men in the Labour movement who showed their co-religionists that this form of putrid stuff was being spread abroad with a view to beating the Labour party, and bringing the Roman Catholic religion into contempt. But who could blame them for it, when those who were associated with the issue of the pamphlets were endeavouring to hold up their religious beliefs to contempt? 558 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - You mean that he has lucid moments? 558 KEA 0 0 KELLY, William Mr Kelly - It is like the man passing on the spurious coin. 558 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS I would like to ask the honorable member for Wentworth whether he knows a man who goes by the name of McCrystal, and as' for the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, I . know what I could say of him. 558 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - The honorable member is welcome to say anything. 558 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS u t when I am dealing with a question such as we have before us to-night, I do not employ such methods. I am dealing with a matter that is altogether apart from any opinion that the honorable member may have of me or I may have of him. At any rate, he got here by a fluke. 558 KH8 0 0 HEITMANN, Edward Mr Heitmann - I am here by a good, clean majority. 558 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS During my political life, and during the six years that I spent in trying to get into public life, I have become tired of the old bogy of sectarianism. It is always trotted out. The man who raised the question against me knew exactly what my opinions were, and the belief in which I was reared, and he raised the question, not because he thought that what was said about me was correct, but because he thought that it would do me harm in a political sense. These pamphlets have been issued for the same reason—becaus e i t is thought that they will harm the Labour party. 558 KK9 NAT 1 0 JENSEN, Jens Mr Jensen - Would it not be better to amend the Electoral Act, and make the issue of such pamphlets an offence ? 558 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS The Minister for Trade and Customs knows that under the Postal Regulations power is given to prevent the circulation of these pamphlets through the post. At least, if they have not the power the Government have been exercising i t illegally in the past, as the honorable member for Hunter has pointed out; because in dozens of cases the carriage of certain literature through the post has been stopped. No great stretch of imagination is required to lead one to the belief that this literature was such as should have been stamped out, as i t was likely to cause dissension in the community. The Minister knows as well as I do that the Government have the power to do this. The Prime Minister says that he did not have the power unless he put into operation the War Precautions Act, but he had promised honorable members on this side that he would allow us to do or say during the course of the election just what we chose to do or say, and would not interfere. He did not carry out that promise; because if ever a political party was persecuted, the Labour party was persecuted during the recent election, from the beginning to the end. We were' afraid to say anything or to make any explanation for fear that we would be arrested under the War Precautions Act. Though day after day, and week after week, the newspapers were reeking with arguments and language so extreme, that even we wondered why they were allowed to do in, we were afraid to say anything. After the experience of the last election, my opinion is that the Prime Minister and those behind him will stop at nothing to gain political ascendency. This putrid literature made things worse. The Prime Minister says that he explained his opinion on the matter at Bridgewater. Like many others the right honorable gentleman, can explain away anything and still go on in the same way. Right through he has attempted to saddle our party with everything that Archbishop Mannix has said. He introduced the sectarian question and attempted to saddle us with i t , but there is nothing new in that method of doing things, although i t is time i t stopped. I have heard honorable members opposite say that they abhor the introduction of sectarianism as much as we do. Here is their opportunity. I agree that the Royal Commission should not be formed of politicians or of men who are anxious to earn big fees, but i t is very evident that the feeling of the House has been expressed by the abhorrence which has been shown by honorable members, with the exception of the honorable member for Grey, whom I was' rather surprised to hear justify the issue of this literature. The matter is admittedly one of great public importance. It has spread ill-feeling throughout the community, and an attempt should be' made to get right down to the bottom of the matter and find out on what side Mr. Critchley Parker stood, and whether he was the first to issue the pamphlets. The Critchley Parker establishment was well known during the last election as the head centre for the distribution of the National party literature. I do not think any one will attempt to deny that fact. I have been informed that there were counters f u l l of the literature of the National party - if this sort of thing can be called literature. I do not believe that Mr. Critchley Parker did all this from any personal feeling he had on the religious question. I think that he was simply making a business of the matter, and the other side and the Prime Minister were quite willing to take all the assistance that these pamphlets gave to them in permeating the minds of the Protestants with talk of what Dr. Mannix and the Roman Catholic party were going to do with the assistance of the Labour party in the matter of handing us over to Rome and the Germans. It is unnecessary for me to say that I have no desire in that direction. Members of the Labour party hold the opinion that political fights should be fought on politics aline. If a clergyman, no matter to what religion he belongs, takes an interest as .an individual in political matters of the day, I cannot see why i t should be described as the introduction of religion into politics. At any rate, . why should the Protestants be hypocritical in laying charges against the Roman Catholics? Do we not know that every Protestant parson in Australia was fighting the last election " for the glory of his country," whether i t was from religious principles pure and simple or against the Democracy of Australia, I do-not know. I do not think that we had one out of ever thousand on our side. In any metropolitan division you could hear i t said, " You cannot vote for so-and-so; he is a Catholic. " 559 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - There was nothing of that sort in Western Australia. 559 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS The community in Western Australia is just the same as any other community, not one bit better, nor one bit worse. People in the electorate of the right honorable gentleman are up to all the tricks, the same as are the people elsewhere. It is the duty of this Parliament to stop this sectarianism from entering into politics. We are anxious to have a Royal Commission to find out how i t was introduced into the last fight. We say that the National party did i t ; they charge us with' having done i t . If they issued this literature, as we say they did, are they proud of it? They say that i t was issued by us, and in order to prove their assertion they point out that men and women in the Labour party gave these pamphlets to their friends. I believe that they did so, but are they to be condemned for their action? If a Roman Catholic Democrat lives next door to a Conservative, and sees his religion attacked, who can blame him for saying to his neighbour, " This is what your people say about our religion?" But that is just the charge that is levelled against us. Every one -claims that this question ought not to have been introduced into our political fight. 560 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - The honorable member and his party to-night are doing what he is condemning. He is raising the whole question. 560 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr MATHEWS If anything is required to prove that the Government and most of their followers—no t all, but most of them—fee l guilty in regard to this matter, we have i t in the Prime Minister's refusal to grant a Royal Commission, and we have further proof in the fact that the honorable member for Wimmera is trying to burke the question. He deliberately rose to move the adjournment of the debate. I should not like to say that he had received instructions ' to do so. If he had i t would only be in accordance with the methods which I admit are adopted by all sides, and I am not going to condemn him for his action. But whether he had or had not instructions, i t is only another proof of the desire of the Government party to burke the discussion of this question and to hide from the public the true position. If the Government were not responsible for the introduction of sectarianism in connexion with the election campaign they would welcome the appointment of the proposed Commission. Motion (by Mr. SAMPSON) put.— That the debate be now adjourned. The House divided. 32 22 Majority ... ... 10 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to; debate adjourned. 560 bill Bill returned from the Senate, with the message that it did not insist on the amendment to which the House of Representatives had disagreed. 560 bill In Committee (Consideration of Governor-General's message) : Motion (by Mr. Watt) agreed to - That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a Bill for on Act relating to the Construction and Management of Commonwealth Railways. Resolution reported, and adopted. 560 Debate resumed from 25th. July (vide page 445), on motion by Mr. Watt - That this Bill be now read a secondtime. 560 9.12 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- I shall not detain the House at any length in dealing with this measure. As the Minister for Works and Railways said when introducing the Bill, the career of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway, from the time that the original survey was undertaken, has been a varied and chequered one. The honorable gentleman was good enough to make available to the House and the country certain information which, I think, will remove a misapprehension on the part of a large section of the public in regard to the cost of that railway. We have been told again and again in the press that the construction of the line which, it was originally estimated, would cost a little over £4,000,000, had already involved an expenditure of over £6,600,000. The Minister, however, has given us an interesting explanation of the several reasons leading to the increased cost. In the first place, an important factor is the use of heavier rails than were at first proposed; while secondly, the cost of material, owing to the outbreak of war, has been largely increased. Then again, wages have increased, the additional expenditure involved under that heading, according to the Minister, being something like £400,000. We find that, allowing for all these factors, the original estimate, instead of being exceeded by some £2,600,000, has in reality been increased by only about £600,000. That section of the press which is opposed to the Labour party and to the day-labour system, for which we stand, has declared again and again that 50 per cent, of the increased cost has been the result of the adoption of the day-labour system in the construction of the line, and that if a contract had been let the whole1 work, including the ballasting and complete equipment of the railway, could have been carried out at a cost well within the original estimate. - 561 KTU 0 0 SMITH, William Mr Laird Smith The Minister also mentioned that a more 'complete system of ballasting had been adopted. 561 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Yes; involving a cost of £500,000. 561 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR If , as the honorable gentleman told us yesterday, the journey between Melbourne and Perth is to be accomplished in seventy-two hours, then a very complete system of ballasting is desirable, having regard to the speed at which the trains will run. We all regret the fact that varying gauges" are in existence in the several States, and we look forward to a time when i t may be possible to travel from Brisbane to Perth on the one gauge of line. If this railway is ever to achieve the chief purpose for which its construction was urged - if i t is to be useful as a strategic railway in the defence of Australia— we must have a uniform gauge at least between Sydney and Perth. The announcement made by the honorable gentleman in regard to the failure of - Western Australia to redeem its promise to construct a 4-ft. 8^-in. line between Perth and Kalgoorlie will come as a surprise to many. 561 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - That had to be within five years, but the Bill was withdrawn. 561 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR That is so; but when Mr. Andrew Fisher was Treasurer, he made representations on the subject to, I think, Mr. Scaddan. 561 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I admit the pledge. 561 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR And the papers show that Mr. Scaddan went back on the pledge made.. 561 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Exactly; and I complained about it. 561 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Had this Parliament been aware of the fact, I do not think that the line would have been built to-day, or, at any rate, would have been so near completion.- I realize that i t is very difficult to touch on the subject of the transcontinental line without' hearing a few interjections from my personal friend but political opponent the Treasurer, who is better informed, or, at any rate, as well informed, as any one here as regards the history of this undertaking. I am glad that the Minister for Works and Railways, in moving the second reading of the B ill , favored us with some of the facts of this history. The B ill , of course, is largely one for Committee. We have to decide by this measure whether the line shall be administered by a Commissioner or run directly by the Government under a political head; and my own opinion is that there must be a Commissioner. It is quite possible that there may be found some to say there is- no need for an appointment of the kind, but i t would be very difficult to conduct such a railway under a political head only. The railway employees in our Service to-day, and who will be in our Service in the future, are in a different position from the railway employees of any State, inasmuch as they will be able, I think, to appeal directly to the Arbitration Court for the redress of any grievances under which they suffer. It was on this question of the right of railway employees to appeal to the Court that the Deakin Government went out of office in 1904, but,, apart from that, such a right is conserved to Commonwealth public servants by an Act already passed. 562 JWO 0 0 CATTS, James Mr J H Catts - To other than railway men. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR Exactly ; and I should now like to know from the Minister whether the right will extend to the railway employees. If not, the Arbitration Act ought to be amended immediately, so as to confer the right. At any rate, even if that is not done, I think we ought to provide in this Bill for the hours of labour and so forth, whether on a weekly or fortnightly basis. I ' understand that in some cases a fortnightly basis is adopted, and it should be provided that the men shall not be employed for- more than, say, 88 hours during the fortnight. There is another matter to which we ought to give some attention. Those who have travelled much in Australia and in other lands know that on the long-distance lines, and even on short-distance lines, men employed and living in outback places are always on the look out for newspapers from the trains, in their desire to keep in touch with the latest general news of the day. In view of the loneliness experienced by men in such employment, I hope the Government will be able to arrange to place two or three families comparatively close together,, so that the nearest neighbour may not be situated ten or twenty miles away. When I was at the head of the Customs Department, and the lighthouses were transferred to the Commonwealth, I ascertained that in some of the States there were children who had never had a day's education. It must be admitted that in this regard we have a responsibility to our servants, and, though our pioneers in the backblocks may suffer similar disabilities, I make the suggestion that we should, if possible, have two or three families together, and so be enabled to provide some educational facilities. 562 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - It is not such a never-never country as all that. There will be a number of people travelling on the line. 562 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton Several schools have been put up already. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I am glad to have that information from an honorable member who is much more cognizant of the character of the country and its- population than I am. From what the Minister said yesterday, I realized that in the 1,052 miles between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie, especially coming eastward, there is practically no habitation for many hundreds of miles. 562 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - There will be soon. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR No one hopes that more earnestly than I do. If this line is to be anything but a great burden on the Commonwealtli, there must be a certain amount of population on the route; but we know that, even in the Eastern States, where the population is more dense, especially, perhaps, from New South Wales into Queensland, ' it is possible to travel for many miles without seeing much, evidence of habitation,, though, of course, there may be settlement a little distance back. 562 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - At present the policy is to put married men near the schools, and the single men elsewhere, and it is proposed to have a sort of travelling school. 562 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest On the telegraph line, and on the Oodnadatta to Port Darwin route, the people are just as isolated. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR That is no reason why we should not take steps to remedy the disadvantage in the line under discussion. 562 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - The men on the telegraph line receive all the news every night. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR I presume these tare single men, and we should do nothing to convey the idea that only single men are required in our service. On the other hand, we ought to make i t possible for married men with their families to live in a degree of comfort and enjoy some of the educational and other advantages of civilization. I hope that before long it will be possible to travel from Melbourne or Adelaide right 'through to Perth without any break of gauge, instead of having -the two or three changes that will be necessary when the line is opened. This would be infinitely better from the point of view of the handling of goods, and absolutely necessary if this line is to be used for its main purpose of defence. We can remember how General Hutton, and also, I think, Lord Kitchener dwelt on the necessity of this great work from a defence point of view. If we have ever to shift a considerable body of men, with munitions and other material, a break of gauge,, or more than one break of gauge, will seriously increase the difficulties. I Understand that even between Brisbane and Melbourne, with only two breaks of gauge, the cost and time involved in transporting, I forget how many thousands of men, would be something appalling. The figures were once given by the present Minister for the Navy at the Premiers' Conference, and I was astounded at the length of time involved in these changes. Hard put to i t as we are for cash, and faced with an increasing difficulty in raising loans for any purpose, I point out that the longer this work of making the gauges uniform is postponed, the more expensive it will be. Had the railway engineers? even at the time Federation was inaugurated, started to unify the gauges of the railways of Australia, we should probably have saved some £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 on the expenditure we shall ultimately have to face. I can only hope that by the time the line is opened, we shall know that it will be ultimately possible to travel throughout the entire length with practically no change of carriage In view of the keen interest which the Treasurer has always taken in this work,- I presume he would like to be the purchaser of the first ticket from Melbourne to Perth. 548 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER He has the right to it 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR though the right honorable gentleman has the right to travel on his member's' pass, he would, I think, like to have such a ticket as a memento of the occasion. 563 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - Like the Australian soldier, I shall be there. 562 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR But for the pertinacity of the right honorable gentleman, ,we might not be considering this Bill tonight. During the construction of the line there have been innumerable strikes and other troubles, and at least two investigations by Royal Commissions, the Chinn inquiry, and the Gilchrist inquiry. It was stated earlier in the day that honorable members do not read the evidence of Royal Commissions, but I think that at least portions of the evidence taken during those inquiries were read. There is a gentleman who desires a third inquiry, considering that he has been wrongfully treated. I have mentioned the matter to the Minister privately, though I do not know the rights and wrongs of the oase. I trust that when the line is opened for traffic things will run more smoothly than they have , run during the construction period. Every Minister connected with the work has had to face endless troubles. The undertaking is, I think, the biggest and most difficult that we have had in Australia, but I hope that the doleful predictions of some of those who opposed it may not be verified; 'and that the line may justify those who voted for it. 563 9.33 KMM Corangamite 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD . - In listening to the speech of the Minister for Works and Railways yesterday, I could not help wondering what he would have said of this work had he expressed his opinion regarding it when a private member in pre-Federation days. I remembered, too, what I had read of the call of the desert to the Bedouin. Evidently the call of the desert has been heard by the honorable gentleman. During his recent trip he seems to have swallowed everything that he heard in its favour. In the early days of Federation I opposed this giant enterprise, and have been in opposition to it ever since, both in Parliament and out. I have discussed it frequently with the Treasurer, and when the great drought occurred in that part of Australia I told him that it would be impossible for the line to pay, because, the kangaroos and emus having been killed off, there would be no traffic at all in the country. However, as we have been " let in " for the building of the line, or, as" Parliament, in its wisdom, has decided to build it- whichever phrase may be acceptable - I hope that when I cross the country I shall be able to swallow as much as the Minister has swallowed, and to wear a similar pair of glasses to see the beauties of the landscape, and to find the population that has been spoken of. I trust that that population is not entirely black. Although the finances of Australia are in a bad way, we ought to try to reduce the breaks of gauge, and certainly should not have more than one break between Adelaide and Perth. I do not wish to tread on any one's corns, but I cannot help feeling that the Government of Western Australia has not carried out the agreement into which it entered, even though it may have had a right to impose a time limit. 563 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest It is pledged up to the hilt. 564 KMM 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD It is in duty bound to make the gauge on the line from Kalgoorlie to Fremantle the same as that on the Commonwealth portion of the line. 564 KFJ NAT 1 0 FORREST, John Sir John Forrest - I say so, too. 564 KMM 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD I trust that this Department will be put on a proper business footing—tha t control of the service will be in the hands of a Commissioner, who will be responsible for saving the Commonwealth as much as possible, though there must be a loss for a considerable time -to come. What is to be gained from the carriage of troops and mails remains to be seen. The Minister for Works and Railways will be up against a tough proposition when he tackles the Postmaster-General in an attempt to make money out of the carrying of mails. The line may benefit by bookkeeping entries, but probably the mail service will cost more than the money obtained from the Postmaster-General's Department. However, we cannot go back upon what we have done, and I am pleased that the work has been finished, because the trains will earn a certain amount of revenue, and we shall no longer be working a "dead horse." I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that something should be done to ameliorate the conditions of those employed on the line. A small settlement of gangers and repairers might be formed from which the men could travel to their work on motor cycles. o I have no knowledge of the country beyond what I have heard from those who have travelled it, and from what I can learn from the map. But it seems to me that only those who have been lighthousekeepers could live in isolation along the route. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the Treasurer should have the honour of purchasing the first through ticket, and I think that the Minister for Railways might well cause a cage to be constructed on the front of the first engine to cross the line, in which the right honorable gentleman might travel. 564 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - I shall have an elephant cage constructed for him. 564 KMM 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD If that is done, not only will the right honorable gentleman be the first passenger to arrive in Perth, but he will precede the train. If that cage precedes the engine I shall be satisfied to ride in one of the cars behind, because I will know'perfectly well that, even if the track is not ballasted everywhere, if it is able to carry the elephant cage and its occupant, the passengers in the other part of the train will be quite safe. I congratulate the Minister on the way in which he introduced the Bill, and on the way that he endeavoured to cover up all the mistakes that have been made in the past. I have said on every occasion that, although i t was estimated that the line would cost £4,000,000, it would cost £8,000,000, or even nearly £10,000,000, by the time i t was finished. The cost up to the present has been £6,500,000, and we are short of a considerable amount of rolling-stock. We have nothing like the number of engines required, and I believe that by the time the railway is running, and the track has been ballasted, it will have cost easily £8,000,000, if it does not cost considerably more. 564 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - And it will not pay for the axle grease on the wheels. 564 KMM 0 0 MANIFOLD, James Mr MANIFOLD f course, it will not. 564 9.42 KLM Melbourne 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY .- While I join in congratulating the Treasurer on the approaching completion of the transcontinental line, I do not indorse the suggestion that the right honorable' gentleman should be placed in an elephant cage in front qf the engine. By placing the tender first, the honorable member who made that suggestion, and a few of his genial friends, could be given a ride free from the smoke of the engine, and could see the country far better than in an observation car, which is generally placed at the rear end of the train, where it draws up in its course the whole of the dust along the track. 564 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman The Treasurer has been along that track before.- 564 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY He has, more than once, and he has always had my vote for this important work. I have always supported the linking up of the whole of the capitals of Australia by means of railways. Reference has been made in the debate to a bond or undertaking given by the Western Australian Government in regard to the building of the line between Kalgoorlie and Perth. All that has happened has been a delay in carrying out the promise, not that the promise has been broken. I honour the Western Australian Government for their action in opening up country for their settlers by means of railway facilities far more than has been done in any other State of Australia. If there has been delay in building a second line between Kalgoorlie and Perth, i t must be remembered that that line can be very well done without for some years, while in the meantime the Western Australian Government have been opening up new country for the benefit of their settlers. Any one who has had the experience that I have had there will agree that they are to be commended for looking after their citizens as well as they have done. The honorable member for Corangamite agreed. with the honorable member for Yarra that facilities should be provided for the workmen on the line, and I am sure the Minister in charge of railway matters will look after them as far as possible. I noticed recently when in the West that at the end of a 76-mile line to Kondinin, which has been constructed since 1916, a splendid house has been built for the use of men who may be acting as flying gangs or in other capacities on the line. It contains four rooms and a bath-room, and attached to i t is a splendid tank of fresh rain water, so that the health and welfare of the railway workers are well looked after in that State. All that was put there at first was a small hut about 12 feet by 10, but that accommodation has been improved upon in the way I have described. I hope Mr. Bell will follow the example of the Western Australian Government in that regard. I think he will, because I understand that he is a man who looks after the welfare of his men, having learnt the axiom of the keenest business men in America that, by looking well after your workers, you will get more than you pay for, because you get their goodwill. The goodwill of the workers is an asset well worth striving for by any employer of labour, and that applies particularly to a large public concern like the railways. "With reference to clause 81, the Minister will agree ,that fair-minded people, who are willing to accept fair compensation in the event of an accident, are not as well treated as if they employ a good legal adviser, and have a medical man to look after them. Clause 81 provides that, upon the occurrence of any accident, the Commissioner may require any person who may have been injured, to be examined, at the Commissioner's cost, by one or more medical men nominated by the Commissioner. That is a very one-sided provision, and I should like to see these words added: " and, if so requested, in the presence of the medical adviser of the injured person." I am only asking for fair play. The etiquette of the medical profession, which I have left, having given up medical work, is that one medical man does not see the patient of another unless that other is present. 565 JM8 0 0 ARCHIBALD, William Mr Archibald - Would not the doctors all agree? 565 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY The honorable member knows that they do not. Every medical man acting for an accident insurance company treats every one who makes a claim as a malingerer. 565 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - The honorable member's suggestion may be generally right; but the accident may take place in the centre of Australia. 565 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY A circumstance of that kind would be, of course, a complete answer. 565 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - We may have to despatch two doctors specially, and may not be able to get all the advisers of injured people there; but I will note the point. 565 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY Lean quite believe that the Commonwealth Government would be generous, rather than the reverse. Sub-clause 2 of clause 81 does not seem to be quite playing the game. It provides that if any person refuses or fails to undergo an examination in accordance with the provision which I have just quoted, he cannot recover any damages or compensation from the Commissioner for personal injury in the accident. I should think that all the protection necessary in that case is provided for by the fact that the Judge and jury would take the refusal to undergo examination into consideration, and possibly reduce the damages. At the same time, the person should not be, absolutely barred by such a refusal from recovering damages, because there may be cases, such as frequently occur, of railway shock. A man might say he was all right at the time, and afterwards find himself affected. We are only" gradually learning to appreciate the effects of shock from the results of this terrible war. Men have been injured by shell shock, without the slightest sign of in jury about them, and the shock has shown itself as late as two months afterwards. That recalls' to my mind what Mr. James Page, one of the greatest surgeons of England, and consultant surgeon to the great Midland line, said in a lecture. He said, " If ever you meet a case of nervous trouble that is hard to diagnose and without reason, go into the back history of that patient and learn if he or she was ever in a railway accident, no matter how light that accident may have been." That was his advice based on his experience with the Midland company for a score of years. All honorable members may not be aware that the sea journey from Fremantle to Adelaide is less than the land journey by no less than 314 miles. That may sound remarkable, taking into consideration the rounding of the Leeuwin; but the actual figures given to me by the Department of Works in Western Australia are: Fremantle to Perth, 12 miles; Perth to Kalgoorlie, 312 miles; Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta, 1,053 miles; Port Augusta to Adelaide, 259J miles; total, 1,687 miles. The distance from Fremantle to Adelaide by sea is 1,373 miles. To Melbourne, the journey bv sea is 1,874 miles; and-2,181 miles by land, or a difference of 307 miles. To Sydney. 2,446 miles by sea; and 2,763 miles by land, or a difference of 317 miles. My point is that shipping has an advantage of 300 miles in the journey; and if our coastal steam-ships are brought more up to date, the passenger journey by sea will be of shorter duration than by land. Vessels capable of travelling 18 and 20 knots are built nowadays, and we are informed that owing to the inventions during this war ships carrying passengers and mails will be able to make the journey across the Atlantic in two days and two nights. I made inquiries amongst the merchants in Perth, and they seemed to think that i t might pay them to send the lighter articles of merchandise by rail at luggage rates, particularly at this period, when i t is so difficult to get steamer freights. I am glad to be able to compliment the Treasurer on the attainment of one of his life's desires. I do not think the Government of Western Australia ought to be blamed for its delay in carrying out the promise to continue the broad gauge from Kalgoorlie to Perth. The pro-mise remains, and will keep. Any one who has had the pleasure of travelling by the narrow-gauge line from Perth to Kalgoorlie will certainly admit that i t is one of the most rapid and comfortable narrow-gauge lines in the world. So far as my knowledge goes, i t is the only line of narrow-gauge railways that gives good sleeping accommodation to second class passengers for 3s. 6d. per head. It was the first railway service in Australia that had a good dining car. The Perth-Kalgoorlie line is one of the straightest in -Australia; and members of this House need not hold up a finger of reproach at Western Australia for the non-fulfilment of its contract. No other State in Australia has equalled the record of Western Australia in providing railway facilities for the opening up of its land and the settlement of its people. I can only wish that Victoria, with its muddled railways, will follow the example of Western Australia. Victoria, although i t has advantages in being comparatively well settled, cannot boast of what i t has accomplished by its railways for the betterment of citizens in comparison with other States. After looking into the question in Western Australia, I came to the conclusion that the transcontinental railway might be fed, not by wide-gauge lines which ' are very expensive, but by narrow-gauge spurs. We can read in the Scientific American of the use made qf motor engines driven by petrol, and i t seems to me that traction of this kind can be used to feed the trunk line. I do not view the finances of this project in the same light as the honorable member for Corangamite. That the line will not pay interest in its early stages, I candidly admit. In that connexion, I have always felt one regret. The Commonwealth should have ear-marked the land between Port Augusta and Perth, built the line, and issued notes based upon its value. Those notes would have been guaranteed by the Commonwealth, and the whole of the permanent way, rollingstock, stations, and buildings would have constituted the security. The notes so issued would have been accepted in payment of freight and taxes levied by the Commonwealth Government. By that means, we should have saved interest, which is the curse of Government undertakings. When Mr. Justice Higgins was a member of the Victorian State Parliament, he called for a return of Victorian public debts, showing how much money had been borrowed, how much paid in interest and redemption, and how much was still owing. In round figures, £50,000,000 had been borrowed at that time, £53,000,000 had been paid in interest and redemption charges, and over £50,000,000 was still owing. The burden of interest is the cause of the Victorian railways not paying their way to-day, notwithstanding that the returns are very air. Suppose that £8,000,000 worth of notes had been issued for the transcontinental railway, as I have suggested. If the first year's operation had returned even only £5,000 above working expenses, that sum would have been applied to the reduction of the capital cost, and in time the whole principal would be paid off, and a railway, built by nothing but the credit of the Commonwealth, would remain. I will not labour the question any further, but I desire to give the House a practical instance upon which my argument is based. It is known as the Guernsey Island Market scheme, formulated in the early part of the last century. At that time there was no currency in the island, but an able financier evolved a scheme for the construction of the markets by local bricklayers, carpenters, and stonemasons, who were paid in Market scrip notes guaranteed by local rates. The market was built, and the day following the opening was celebrated as a holiday. On each anniversary of the opening day the corporation burned all the notes which had been returned to them as rent for the stalls in the market, and within ten years they had thus got rid of the whole of the liability. 567 KTU ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 SMITH, William Mr LAIRD SMITH - But the market was a paying concern from the day it was opened. 567 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY The honorable member is quite correct, and the market is still carried on, free of debt. While the railway would not pay from the outset, i t would ultimately prove a profitable undertaking, and I hope the Minister will, therefore, give consideration to this matter. 567 JWG Perth 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER . - I wish to take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister upon the fair and lucid manner in which he explained the measure, as well as upon the fact that he will, no doubt, have the honour of being in office at the completion of what will probably be one of the most important works carried, out in the Commonwealth for very many years. As one who has occupied a seat in this Parliament since its inception, I confess to a feeling of very great satisfaction that this scheme, which Western Australian members have, advocated for so long, is now nearing completion. In the early days of Federation I regarded the construction of this line as a sine qua non for the entry of Western Australia into the Union. It has taken a good deal of persuasion to get the Federal Parliament to agree to the undertaking, but we have the satisfaction of knowing that the history o'f this line is merely the history of all large railway schemes throughout the world. The great transcontinental railway across America, for instance, waa scoffed at for the same reason that still seems to influence some honorable members here in their attitude towards the Australian project. I may inform the honorable member for Corangamite, however, that while he stall regards the country through which this line passes as desert land, it is only desert country in the sense that the Victorian Mallee was desert country thirty years ago, and in the sense that the Camperdown country was regarded as a desert 100 years ago. Thirty years back, the effective development of the Mallee country, from the agricultural stand-point, was considered to be quite as impossible as the development to-day of country through which our transcontinental line runs; but we are not without proof of faith in the land, as there is a regular scramble for a great deal of the country affected by the line. Large tracts have been taken up - I regret to say the areas are too large. - and much more of it will be taken up in the near future. I feel sure that while the land may be occupied in the first instance for pastoral purposes only, it will not be long before it will be found fit for closer settlement. Indeed, a good deal of it is of very fine quality, and though the rainfall may be somewhat scanty, we must remember that country alleged thirty years .ago to be unfit for agriculture for this reason is now occupied to advantage, the rainfall having been found sufficient for agricultural purposes under- a modern system of cultivation. 568 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt We have just been stopped for four days in plate-laying in the West on account of rain. 568 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER In some of the country through which this line passes I have seen rain which would satisfy the most ardent agriculturist. Unfortunately, i t is somewhat irregular, but I think i t is recognised as a scientific fact that rain does follow settlement in Australia, and i t is quite likely that before long we will get all the rain that is wanted for effective cultivation of cereals, at any rate. 568 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - Will the honorable member state what is the lowest rainfall in the districts on which wheat can be grown ? 568 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER Unfortunately , we have not accurate data over a lengthy period, but I should say that i t comes down to about 7 inches. 568 L0P 0 0 SAMPSON, Sydney Mr Sampson - In Southern Cross? 568 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER I could not give the exact areas. The rainfall decreases as'you get into the interior, but along the route of this Hue there is evidence of sufficient rainfall for wheat-growing' in average years. 568 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - You are referring, I presume, to the Western Australian side? 568 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER Yes . The land and the rainfall there are better than on the South Australian side, and I think i t is a pity that the line was carried so far north through South Australia, thus lengthening i t quite unnecessarily, and with very little practical benefit to that State. I wanted to refer more particularly, however, to the position of Western Australia in regard to the incompleted portion of the line from Kalgoorlie to Fremantle. There is no doubt that an undertaking was given by the Western Australian Government of the day that a railway on the Commonwealth gauge would be constructed to Fremantle, and I feel sure that but for a stringency in the money market, and the outbreak of this terrible war, some means would have been found to finance that portion of the undertaking. Undoubtedly, it is quite impossible at the present time. Western Australia certainly has not the money, and cannot get the money, except perhaps at a ruinous price. While I regret that the scheme has not been carried out as originally proposed, still I feel sure that before many years elapse the 4-fb. 8^-in. gauge will run right down ito Fremantle. There is just one other matter to which I wish to call the attention of the Minister. The people of Western Australi a, particularly of Perth, look forward to the opening of this railway naturally with a good deal of interest and enthusiasm, and I hope that the Commonwealth Government will give them some opportunity of celebrating in a suitable way the arrival in Perth of the first transcontinental train. There has been some talk of holding an exhibition. I am nob sure whether the time ia quite the correct one for anything of the kind; but I hope that the Government have seriously considered the proposals put before them in connexion with the possibility of some such support being given to the people of Western Australia and of Perth in connexion with the opening of the line as will enable them to make the ceremony as fitting and as impressive as i t is entitled to be. 568 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - I shall be glad to confer with the representatives of Western Australia on that question. 568 JWG 0 0 FOWLER, James Mr FOWLER I thank the Minister for his suggestion, and I hope that the out come will be of some material benefit in connexion with the proposal. The Minister has a much greater task before him if he remains many years in office. I refer to the creation of a main trunk line of uniform gauge running right across the continent to Brisbane. Unfortunately that is something that we can hardly look forward to in the immediate future, but I trust that this Parliament will keep before i t the necessity and the possibility of it, because,. undoubtedly, without some such scheme as that the advantage of linking up the various cities of Australia by rail is, to a large extent, neutralized by the variety of gauges. Even under present conditions, I feel satisfied. that the advent of this railway will be of immediate advantage, not only to Western Australia, but also to the eastern States. It will bring the east and the west together in' a more effective way than, sea travelling can make possible, and I trust that we shall have sufficient intercommunication of goods and of persons to enable the line, if not to pay all working expenses straightway, at least to provide a reasonable anticipation that such. will be the position-in the near future. Debate (on motion by Mr. J. H. CATTS) adjourned. 569 adjournment 569 Motion (by Mr. Watt) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 569 JXA Hunter 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON .- I desire to bring under the notice of the Minister representing the Minister for Defence a . practice that has been adopted by the military authorities of bringing recruits from New South Wales to Victoria for training purposes. I had occasion to bring the matter under the notice of the House about sixteen months ago, and there was then some little improvement effected; but the Defence Department are again drifting back to the old method. lt is unfair to the lads who enlist in New South Wales to drag them to Seymour to be trained. I would not complain if there was any good or sufficient reason to advance for this action, but I am assured by the recruits that they get no drill that they could not secure in their own State. This system causes a good deal of dissatisfaction, which does not tend to help recruiting. On the last occasion on which I brought the matter forward, mothers who had come all the way from New South Wales to Melbourne to see their sons before they embarked, called to see me. To-day I find that the same practice is followed as much as ever. The New South Wales recruit runs a very great risk when he is brought to Victoria and is kept here for several months for training purposes. The climate of New South Wales is much warmer, and there is less rainfall in that State. At Seymour the rainfall is fairly constant, and there are different samples of climate every day. The result is that lads from New South Wales contract colds, and probably pneumonia and other complaints. The people over there get to hear about these things, and when they realize that there is a chance of lads having to leave New South Wales and come to Victoria for training, it retards recruiting. Parents are opposed to the transfers that have taken place. They claim that the lads should be permitted to remain in their own State until they have to embark. It is of great advantage to a soldier to remain in his own State when he is undergoing his training, because there he is among his own people and his own friends, and when he gets leave at the week-end he can return to his home and see his parents or his wife and family. I have heard several complaints on this score. A recruit from New South Wales has pointed out that he hae to be back in Melbourne on the Monday. Leaving on the Friday night he gets to his home at 6.30 p.m. on Saturday night,' and he must leave on his return at 2.30 on the following afternoon. If he is not back in Victoria on the Monday he is fined. In the case of another recruit from Maitland, he gets to his home at 8 o'clock on the Saturday night, and he has to leave on his return at lunch time the following day. There is no good reason why men who enlist in one State should be dragged to another for the purpose of being trained. I ask the Honorary Minister what justification there is for this practice that is now growing up again? The Government should instruct the military authorities that men who enlist should be trained in their own State until they embark, unless some good reason is advanced for taking them into another State. If there is any special reason, of course, we must give weight to it, but, in the absence of any such special reason, I can see no justification for the practice that is followed. It is a great injustice to the parents of the recruits and to the soldiers themselves. 569 KLG Dalley 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY .- I wish to bring under the notice of the Honorary Minister the case of a number of apprentices at the naval establishment at Garden Island. These boys were called out for a compulsory- parade on Anzac Day for the purpose of stimulating recruiting. On previous occasions when they were called out for a compulsory parade they received a day's pay, but on this particular day, when one of the most glorious things every member of the community could do was to stimulate recruiting, the Government stopped the pay of these boys. It amounted to ls. 8d. per day. I am referring to the Naval Workyards at Garden Island Sydney. There are only about half-a-dozen boys concerned, and the expenditure involved in making the alteration which I suggest would certainly not strain the financial resources of the Commonwealth. Indeed, the matter is such a paltry one that I do not suppose the Minister has any knowledge of it. These boys certainly ought not to be penalized when called out on compulsory parades for the purpose of stimulating i recruiting. I may also mention that these work yards were taken over by the Commonwealth from the Imperial authorities. In the days when they were under the direct control of the Admiralty the apprentices employed there were, privileged to attend technical classes at night-time, and to permit of them doing this they were allowed to catch an earlier boat from the island to the mainland - a boat which left at 4.20 p.m. This privilege has now been withdrawn, and they are compelled to wait for a boat till about 5.15 p.m. They have then to go home, and effect a change of dress, by which tame it is too late for them to reach the technical schools to resume their duties. The country is thus being deprived of a distinct' benefit, inasmuch as these apprentices were gaining technical knowledge, and fitting themselves to become skilled tradesmen. 570 KXK NAT 1 0 WEBSTER, William Mr Webster How long has the change been effected ? 570 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY inc e the present Government took office. I hope the Minister will see justice is done in these matters. 570 KZA East Sydney 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST .- I desire to support the remarks of 'the honorable member for Hunter in regard to the granting of leave of absence to recruits who hail from New South Wales. I placed myself in' communication with the Defence Department upon this subject, but the replies which I received were very evasive. 570 KFK 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Ernest Mr Groom Has the honorable member a reply with him? 570 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST Yes . The mothers of these lads feel that the weeks prior to their embarkation they might reasonably be kept in training in the State to which they belong. I know that i t is idle to appeal to the military authorities on this question because there is none of the milk of human kindness in them. The small concession for which I ask would exert a great and beneficial effect on recruiting. I wish also to point out that if a lad is recruited in Sydney, and is brought to Victoria for the purpose of being trained, four months must elapse before he is granted leave of absence to enable him to revisit his home. I think that the Minister will be carrying out the wish of Parliament if hfe endeavours to keep recruits within their own particular State, and to afford them an opportunity to see their parents as often as possible while they are being trained. 570 KFK Darling Downs NAT Honorary. Minister 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM . - I am advised that men are not sent into training camps outside their' own State unless there is some good and valid reason for doing so. 570 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West The correspondence does not show that. 570 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM That at all events is the information I have received. I shall bring under the notice of the Minister what has been said by the honorable member for Hunter and by the honorable member for East Sydney, and shall make further inquiries; but I am informed that recruits are not unnecessarily taken out of the State in which they enlist. There is no advantage to' be gained by doing so. The desire is that the training shall be carried out as far as possible in the States in which the men enlist; but in dealing with large bodies of recruits, and with various arms to be trained, regard must be had to efficiency, and the men must be sent where the most effective training can be secured. In some cases, even after men have been transferred, readjustments may be necessary, and, as the honorable member has said, some of them are occasionally returned to the States in which they have enlisted. The Minister, however, sympathizes with the view that as far as possible the men should be trained in their own State, and kept as close as possible to their own homes. 570 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - When I spoke to an officer on the subject on one occasion he said, " What do the men want to see their mothers for ? ' ' 570 KFK NAT 1 0 GROOM, Littleton Mr GROOM hil e such a statement might have been made by an individual officer, i t is not to be taken as representing the attitude of the officers generally. No one is in sympathy with such an idea. The Department realizes that i t is dealing with men who have feelings and emotions w ich should be studied and .considered. I have made a note of the matter to which the honorable member for Dalley has referred, and shall, as desired, bring before the Minister the two cases he has mentioned. The honorable member for South Sydney referred this afternoon to a regulation which he said had only recently come into operation, and which deals with the question of forfeiture of pay. The position is that soldiers while abroad may commit certain offences, for which they are punished by deductions being made from their pay, and that in some cases where such men have subsequently lost their lives i t has been found, when the settlement of their affairs has taken place, that deductions have to be made in respect of such penalties. I understand that the procedure is not a new one, but results from the Defence Act, which provides for forfeiture of pay in certain cases. A modification of the regulation has been made, but solely with the object of bringing i t into conformity with the Act. I shall, however, bring the'matter under the notice of the Minister. Question resolved in the affirmative. 571 22:36:00 House adjourned at 10.36 p.m.