1920-02-27 8 1 0 REPS 28 0 House of Representatives. 1920-02-27 Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers. 57 Questions 57 Concessions from Imperial Government. 57 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr RICHARD FOSTER - Has the Prime Minister a statement to make to the House as to the probability of securing more substantial and effective concessions from the Imperial Government, particularly in regard to our primary products, in return for the generous preference given to Great Britain in the Australian Tariff? 57 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I shall probably be in a position to make a statement on this subject at an early date. 57 adjournment 57 57 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have received from the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. Nicholls) an intimation that he desires to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, " the dismissal of men from the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow." The honorable member will not be able to move as he desires until the motion for the adoption of the Address-in-Reply has been dealt with. 57 miscellaneous Mr. McDONALD took the oath and subscribed the roll as member for the electoral division of Kennedy. 57 Questions 57 57 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - May I ask honorable members generally not to put to Ministers without notice questions of which notice can be given ? When the subject of a question is of such urgency that obviously it would be detrimental to the welfare of any considerable body of citizens to delay the asking of it, it is proper to ask it without notice; but, as honorable members know well, it is not usually under such circumstances that questions are asked without notice. I shall be glad if honorable members will be good enough to confine their questions without notice to matters of real urgency. I shall answer such questions if I am able to do so. Mr.FENTON.- I have a question to ask which I consider important, because there are quite a number of troubled hearts in the community among the soldiers and their relatives. I wish to know whether the moratorium provisions for the protection of soldiers and their dependants who are renting houses are still in operation against rapacious landlords? 58 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - That is a question of which I think the honorable member should give notice, especially as I am unable to answer it right away. 58 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr MAHON - The question which I wish to put to the Prime Minister is one which I think he can answer without notice. In view of the fact that persons interned during the war were not informed of the charge against them, nor confronted . with their accusers, I wish to know what steps it is proposed to take to satisfy this House and the people of Australia that injustice has not been done to many accused persons. I desire, also, to obtain information as to the number of persons who were interned and the number still interned, but I shall put on the notice-paper my questions on those subjects. 58 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - In view of the statement of the Prime Minister, I suggest to the honorable member that perhaps the whole of the questions might reasonably be put on the notice-paper. 58 KLB 0 0 MAHON, Hugh Mr Mahon - The first of my questions can well be answered immediately. 58 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If the honorable member says that that question is urgent, a different complexion is put upon it. Question not answered. Upon other honorable members rising to ash questions without notice - 58 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - In view of the statement of the Prime Minister that it is not the intention of Ministers to answer questions without notice, unless they are of an urgent character, it would be wasting the time of the House to permit the asking, without notice, of questions which might reasonably be set down on the notice-paper. Therefore, I ask honorable members to give notice of all such questions. 58 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Has the Speaker become the Prime Minister? 58 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! It is entirely at the option of Ministers themselves whether they will answer questions or not 58 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Hear, hear; but it is not for the Speaker to take upon himself the responsibility. 58 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! It is not in order for an honorable member to interject while the Speaker is on his feet. Since the Prime Minister has informed the House that it was not the intention of Ministers to answer questions without notice, it must be obvious that if I permitted such questions to be continued, I would be doing something which was not conducive to the proper conduct of 'the business of the House. 58 58 KYD NAT 1 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I must respectfully request honorable members generally not to load the business paper for Friday mornings with questions on notice related to the Department for which I am responsible, when Ministers have very little time at their disposal for obtaining the answers. 58 58 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice - Will he lay on the table a full statement showing how the profits from army and troopship canteens have been allocated and apportioned? 58 L0I NAT 1 0 RYRIE, Granville Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE - The surplus profits of the army and troopship canteens have not yet been allotted or apportioned. It is proposed, at an early date, to introduce a Bill constituting a Trust for the administration of these moneys, and it is intended such moneys - over and above all the obligations under the Repatriation Act and Regulations - shall be devoted to the widows, orphans, widowed mothers, and other immediate dependants of our fallen soldiers, and also to the more seriously disabled returned soldiers. 58 58 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Is it the intention of the Government to guarantee a minimum price for wheat for the 1920-21 season? If so, will early intimation, giving full particulars, be published ? Has the Government considered the advisability of fixing a minimum price for wheat for a period of years so that production and country settlement may be stimulated? If so, what will be the terms and period of the guarantee? 59 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - 1 and 2. A guarantee of 5s. per bushel at country sidings has already been announced for the season 1920-21.. No. See answer to No 3. 59 59 KIT 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr MACKAY asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whetherhe will make a statement as to the progress of his negotiations with the representatives of the dairying industry for its better organization and for the marketing of butter and cheese ? 59 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - Conferences have been held in each State, and delegates appointed to a Central Conference, which will be held in Melbourne early in March, when the details of the scheme will be considered. 59 59 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Whether he will favorably consider an amendment of the Income -Tax Assessment Act this year with a view to assessing the incomes of farmers and graziers on the average of their incomes for five years? Is it a fact that in Great Britain all incomes other than farming, grazing, and mining are based on a three years' average, and the three industries before mentioned on a five years' average? 59 KXG NAT 1 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - This matter will be considered by the Royal Commission, which it is proposed to appoint to inquire into and report on the whole incidence of Commonwealth taxation. No. A somewhat complicated system of assessment prevails in Great Britain. Some assessments are based upon averages such as the honorable member refers to. The farmer grazier may elect whether he pays income tax based upon the annual value of his property or upon his average income of the preceding three years. Of course, conditions in Australia arc not the same as in Britain. For the information of the honorable member, I may say that recent press cable advice from London indicates that the Royal Commission sitting in London to inquire into the incidence of British Income Tax intends to recommend the abolition of assessment on the average income of three years, and to substitute assessment on the income of the preceding year. Mr. STEWART (for Mr. Gregory) asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Will he favorably consider a retrospective amendment of the War-time Profits Tax Act which will afford relief in cases where it is stated the Act has been found to operate very harshly on pastoralists and graziers, who, prior to the war, had made no profits, and in many instances had shown heavy losses, and who now are being heavily taxed on book profits (increases of stock) which, it is alleged, may never be realized? 59 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - The points raised by this question were very fully considered by the Parliament when the amendment of the War-time Profits Tax Assessment Act 1918 was under consideration, and it was considered that very full provision was made for relief to pastoralists, especially those operating in districts liable to severe drought, in which the capital of the business was liable to be lost or reduced owing to drought. It is probable that pastoralists have not made themselves acquainted with these provisions of the law. This matter will doubtless be considered by the proposed Royal Commission on the incidence of Commonwealth direct taxation. 59 Date of Termination - Trial of War Criminals 59 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - On what date did the war between Great Britain and her Allies and Germany, Austria-Hungary and their Allies, cease to exist officially? On what date will the War Precautions Act of Australia cease to have force or effect? 59 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The state of war between Great Britain and Germany ceased on the 10th January, 1920. A state of war still exists with Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey. At the expiration of three months after the issue by the Governor-General of the proclamation specified in section 2 of the War Precautions Act 1914-1918, declaring that thewar with Germany and Austria-Hungary has ceased. 59 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether he, as Prime Minister of Australia, and member of the Peace Council, was communicated with in regard to the reversal of the Allies' policy in connexion with the trial of the war criminals? If so, did he agree to that policy of allowing the said criminals to escape the consequences which might result from a trial by an allied tribunal? 60 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - No. See answer to No. 1. 60 60 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Mr HIGGS asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Is there any truth in the report that German exports to Great Britain in 1919 were valued at £ 1,000,000, whereas the exports from Great Britain to Germany during the same period were valued at £14,000,000? Will the Minister be good enough to cable to London to ascertain from the proper authorities what were the principal items and the countries of origin of the said exports from Great Britain to Germany? 60 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - I am unable to say. It is not thought the information required by the honorable member is sufficiently urgent to warrant the expense of cabling. 60 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether the Government have yet come to a decision in respect to trading with Germany? If so, will he inform the House of the nature of that decision? 60 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The Government's policy in this connexion will be announced in due course. 60 Royal Commission's Report: Supplies foe Bundaberg Refinery. 60 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - When he expects to bc able to lay on the table of the House the. report of the Royal Commission on Sugar? 60 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The report will be placed on the table of the House as soon as the Government has had an opportunity of considering it. 60 K6S 0 0 CORSER, Edward Mr CORSER asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - In view of the promise made that not less than 1:3,000 tons of raw sugar should be sent from the sugar districts of North Queensland to the Bundaberg refinery, and as 200 employees of the said refinery are prematurely thrown out of employment by the non-delivery of this raw sugar, thus swelling the numbers of unemployed caused by the recent severe drought, will he say when the shipment of raw sugar to the refinery will be resumed ? 60 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The delivery of sugar has been dislocated owing to the strike,, but the question of further deliveries will be considered so soon as the normal condition of shipping shall have been resumed. 60 Victualling Allowance - Rates of Pay - Promotions 60 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice - Is it a fact that the victualling allowance for the lower deck of the Australian Navy was, in 1914, ls. 8d. per diem? Is it a fact that the victualling allowance to-day is still the same, viz., ls. 8d. ? Is it a fact that if all the men have to remain aboard when their ship is in harbor this allowance would not be sufficient; and when the men go ashore on night leave they have to pay the greatly increased price without any additional allowance? Does he think, viewing the tremendous increases in all prices, the victualling allowance is sufficient? In view of the greatly increased price of " slops," in some cases more than 100 per cent., will he have inquiries made with a view to the allowance for " slops " being increased ? Is it a fact that the rates of pay for the lower deck of the Australian Navy are considerably lower than those of the Royal Navy; and, if so, will he take steps to have them brought up to those of the Royal Navy? Is it a fact that the opportunities of promotion from the lower deck are not so great as in the Royal Navy, and will he have inquiries made with a view to the Australian Navy being brought into 'line with the Royal Navy, ' particularly respecting the " mate " system? 60 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The allowance in 1914 was ls. 4d. per diem for sea-going ships and ls. 2d. per diem in harbor establishments. The allowance was increased to ls. 8d. per diem all round in 1918. No. ' There is a fixed price at which rations are issued to messes, and if the approved scale of food cannot be supplied at ls. 8d. per head per diem the Government bears the excess. See answer to No. 3. . The Naval Board reviewed this matter about six months ago, and substantially increased the allowance. The rates of pay of the lower deck are not lower than those of the Royal Navy. As regards opportunities of promotion, the two services are in line, including the " mate " system. 61 61 JOG 0 0 BAYLEY, James Mr BAYLEY asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice - Whether the suggestion has been made that the Sherwood Government Reserve at Brisbane, locally known as the Old Powder Reserve, should be handed over to the War Service Homes Commissioner, to enable him to erect thereon a number of war service homes? If so, will he take into consideration the fact that the reserve above mentioned is necessary as a lung for the rapidly-growing suburbs adjoining it, and will he take steps to have it transferred from the Defence Department, in whom it is at present vested, and handed over in trust to the communities interested? 61 KYD NAT 1 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The answers to the honorable member's questions are - Not as far as the Commissioner is aware. This is more a matter for consideration by the Minister for Defence. 61 miscellaneous 61 Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to - That the Standing Orders be suspended in order to enable the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means to be appointed before the Address-in-Reply to His Excellency the Governor-General's opening speech has been agreed to by the House, and to enable all other steps to be at once taken to obtain Supply, and to pass a Supply Bill through all its stages without delay. 61 miscellaneous 61 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON .- I move - That the honorable member for Riverina (the Hon. John Moore Chanter) be appointed Chairman of Committees of this House. It is unnecessary for me to make a lengthy statement in submitting this motion, since the honorable member for Riverina is well known to the majority of honorable members, and has previously filled with distinction and credit to himself the position of Chairman of Committees. I can say with confidence to new members that in the honorable member, if he be elected, we shall have a fearless and impartial Chairman. The honorable member held this office during the whole of the last Parliament, as well as on previous occasions, and I hope that my motion will meet with the concurrence of the House. 61 JNV Herbert 0 0 BAMFORD, Frederick Mr BAMFORD .- It is with sincere pleasure that I second the motion. As the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) has said, the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) is well known to the House, and during his occupancy of the chair on previous occasions gave satisfaction' to almost every one. He had occasionally to play the part yesterday described by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) as that of a flagellator, but it appeared to me that on some occasions at least the punishment meted out by him, if not merited, was, at all events, welcomed and rather sought after. The honorable member never used the whip until he had resorted to a good deal of suasion, and had asked for some consideration for the delinquent. The honorable member for Riverina is not exactly the father of the House - that is a position to which I aspire - but he has been in politics much longer than I have, having had considerable experience in the State Parliament of New South Wales, as well as in the National Parliament. His decisions as Chairman of Committees have met with the approval of the great majority of honorable members, and I am sure they will never be challenged. They will be followed, I am confident, by any honorable member who is privileged in the future to occupy the position, for they displayed such a soundness of judgment that no one could cavil at them. 61 KWL Yarra 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- It is with reluctance that I rise to take the action that I am now about to do, but there are certain matters which I desire to bring before the House. Those who were in the last Parliament will remember that the Electoral Bill was before the House in November, 1918. The sitting, which opened on the 7th November, extended throughout the night, and after a brief adjournment was resumed at 11 o'clock on the morning of the8th November. Shortly afterwards I rose to exercise my undoubted right to speak to a certain clause in reply to the present Treasurer (Mr. Watt), who was then Acting Prime Minister, but the honorable member for Riverina, who was then Chairman of Committees, ruled that I had already spoken twice to the clause, and was, therefore, not entitled to speak again. I was positive, and I think most of those present shared my view, that I had spoken only once, and I told the Chairman so. Hisreply was that I must sit down, and I had to do so because I knew that if I failed to obey his direction I would be suspended. SirJosephCook. - The honorable member knew that from previous experience. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Yes, but I have never been suspended. 62 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I have. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I am aware of that, and I think the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Bamford) must have had the honorable gentleman in mind when he said that on some occasions he thought those who had been punished by the Chairman were looking for punishment, and rather welcomed it. I make this statement because my experience on the occasion referred to may be that of any honorable member at some future date. The Hansard report of the proceedings is as follows: - 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR .- I admit that if I were in the Minister's position I would do exactly as he is doing. Naturally, Ministers want their Bill, but- 62 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! I find the honorable member has already spoken twice on this clause. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I spoke only once, Mr. Chairman. 62 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I find, on reference to the records, that the honorable member has spoken twice. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - Not on this clause. I spoke on clause 123, and before I rose I spoke to the Clerk on the subject.- That was to verify my own belief that I had spoken only once on the clause. 62 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - It is the duty of the Chairman to be accurate in checking the mem-' bers' times. The honorable member first spoke on this clause at 11.25 a.m., and again at 11.52 a.m. He now proposes to speak again, but he has exhausted his time. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I am sure I did not. I say deliberately I do not think I did, and I do not think any other member believes I have spoken twice on it. 62 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member to withdraw that statement. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - I will withdraw it. You are not going to put me out. Mr. Finlayson. You try it on. 62 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I did expect that the Leader of the Opposition would endeavour to support the Chair. When I was on my feet for the first time, the present Treasurer (Mr. Watt), who was then Acting Prime Minister, had sent to me an intimation that he wished to see me on important business. I am sure that the honorable gentleman will not mind my saying that he had then received a cable, stating that the armistice would probably take effect on the following Monday; and I was with him at the time the Chairman said I had spoken for the second time. Had the Chairman of Committees admitted he had made a mistake - and every man is prone to make mistakes - I should not have called attention to the subject. 62 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - It was the case of the record of the Clerk against your recollection. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - It was the Chairman's own record, and not the Clerk's. The Chairman stated that I had spoken at 11.52, whereas it was the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) who rose at that time. The honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) spoke at 11.53, the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony) at 11.55. the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) at 12 o'clock, the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) at 12.7, and I followed. I did not get a complete Hansard record of the proceedings until November 19th. 62 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - Anything happening after 12 o'clock is excusable. 62 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - It was 12 o'clock noon, not midnight. We assembled at 3 o'clock on the afternoon of the 19th, and then I made the following personal explanation : - On Friday week, when I rose to speak on clause 125 of the Electoral Bill, the Chairman of Committees told me that I had exhausted my right to speak on the clause, having already twice done so. I 'denied at the time the accuracy of his statement, and was threatened with expulsion; but the proof of the Hansard report furnished to me next day showed that I had spoken on the clause only once. As there was a possibility of a galley slip not having been delivered to me, I waited until the publication of the complete record, and from that it is evident that I spoke only once, beginning my speech at 11.24 a.m. At 11.52 the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) spoke. That was the time at which, according to the Chairman of Committees, I had spoken. His speech lasted for two or three minutes. At that time, I was absent from the Chamber interviewing the Acting Prime Minister. Our rights here are little enough, and they should not be reduced 50 per cent. I think I have a right to place on record the treatment meted out to me by the nominee of the Government. I have admitted that every man can make mistakes - the man who says he does not make mistakes makes the biggest mistake of all. It is true that this was after an all-night sitting, but I should be failing in my duty as a member of this House if I' allowed my rights to be curtailed without protest. 63 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Did the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) ever apologise ? 63 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr TUDOR - He never said a word about the matter, I had to withdraw the remark that I "thought" I had only spoken once - I was not allowed to think. In view of that action of the late Chairman of Committees, I am reluctantly compelled to protest against his appointment. If any other honorable member is nominated for the position I shall vote for him. 63 KXG Balaclava NAT Treasurer 1 0 WATT, William Mr WATT . - I distinctly remember the incident referred to by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor). I remember the feeling of surprise I experienced on hearing that the honorable gentleman had spoken twice, my recollection being that he had only spoken once. However, it was not my province to interfere with the Chairman of Committees, although I was in charge of the Committee at the time; I trusted that the records of the Chairman, or of the Clerk, were more reliable than the faulty recollections of Parliamentarians like the honorable gentleman and myself. We had had an all-night sitting, dealing with that troublesome Electoral Bill, and honorable members were very strained. We were trying to hasten the close of the Friday sitting in order that honorable members might catch their Inter-State trains. Surely the honorable member does not mean to suggest that because the late Chairman of Committees made a mistake- 63 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Had he risen and admitted his mistake I should never have raised the question again. 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - Surely the honorable member does not suggest that the fact that the late Chairman made a mistake is a reason why he should not be re-elected to the position, whether he acknowledged the mistake or not? The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) admits that we are all prone to make mistakes. 63 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Hear, hear ! 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - And that we are all reluctant to acknowledge them. 63 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - Not on this side of the House. 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - I hold it to be probable that even honorable members opposite are fallible. Let us be fair, and acknowledge that the record of the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) stands unchallenged for the impartial and splendid regulation of our Committees. 63 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Rubbish ! 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - Although the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) clashed with the ex-Chairman of Committees (Mr. Chanter) on a vital matter, and will doubtless tell the House something about it- 63 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I think I shall. 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - I speak with almost as much experience of deliberations of this kind as most honorable members, and I say, without the slightest hesitation or reservation, that the honorable member for Riverina, as Chairman of Committees in the last Parliament, was scrupulously just, .impartial, and able in assisting honorable members in the discharge of their Committee business. 63 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - He assisted his party ! 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - Not his party; the honorable member for Riverina, as Chairman, ruled as often against me as against honorable members opposite. 63 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - He is a good party man! 63 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr WATT - I do not regard the Chairman of Committees as a . " party man." As soon as a man is appointed to the position of Chairman he should shed all colour and atmosphere of party, and that, I think, both the presiding officers of the House have done. I am glad to hear this nomination, and I hope the House will frown down any attempt by Mr. Tudor to belittle the record and ability of the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter). 63 KLM Melbourne ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY . - Than a lawyer, I know nobody more able to ,put up a case for or against than is the Treasurer (Mr. Watt) . Possibly the profession of the law allows a man to become a sophist. I am sorry to say that the Treasurer is a sophist; to would argue either way. This election is just another phase of the division of the spoils of office. The Ministerial candidate is one of the six survivors of the noble fourteen who left a certain room upstairs when the present Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), after holding the position of chairman of the party for two days and one night, was afraid to put to the meeting a motion concerning his leadership. The chairmanship is one of the paid positions of the House. With new recruits, the National Labour party number nine, and they 'have already more than their fair proportion of offices. I accuse the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) of having been absolutely unjust while he occupied the position of Chairman. Following the occasion on which I was ordered out of the House - the first time in a parliamentary career of thirty years - the Chairman left the chair, walked on to the floor of the House, and, by his remarks, rubbed the salt into the open wound. I placed the incident on record! in Hansard in the form of a sworn declaration. On a subsequent date the Labour Whip told me that my declaration was being discussed in the House. I came into the House, and the Minister for the Navy appealed to me to agree to expunge the declaration from the records of the House. He stated that the declaration had been read when the House was in Committee, and' was, therefore, out of order. The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter), as Chairman of Committees, should have known whether the reading of the document was in accordance with the Standing Orders. However, I was in a good humour when the Minister for the Navy (Sir Joseph Cook) appealed to me, and, after first requesting that a member from each side of the House should be chosen to investigate the matter, and decide whether the Chairman or I was in the wrong, I agreed to leave the matter in his hands. Ultimately the honorable member for Riverina would not indorse his statement. All that. I desired him to do was to admit that he had made a mistake. I did not want an apology from a man older in years than I am. He would not acknowledge that he was wrong. The sworn declaration was expunged from the records. The Minister for the Navy kept his contract. I remember him saying to the Chairman, " If I were you, sir, I would withdraw and apologize, and so have done with the matter." I told the honorable member for Riverina that if he swore a declaration that my statement was wrong, I would prosecute him for perjury. I could do nothing more. He accused me of going into his district on one occasion to speak against his re-election. The only time I went into his electorate during elections was when I went, at my own expense, to urge the Labour branches of the district to adopt him as their candidate. His own common sense ought to have told him that my constituents required my presence in Melbourne during an election at which I was opposed. Even now, if the honorable gentleman will say that he regretted that he made a mistake, I will accept his word willingly. I come now to a humorous incident. Did not he, when Chairman, call me to order, and ask me to sit down, when I was singing God Save the King*! And did I not tell him and the Ministry that I would see them damned first? Whenever I am singing God Save the King, or whatever is the national song of the British race, I shall sing it standing. If the discussion to-day does nothing else, it will at least prove to the honorable member for Riverina that he, like others, is fallible. It would have been better if he, acting on the advice of the Minister for the Navy, had acknowledged that he had made a mistake, instead of compelling me to take the advantage of an opportunity, which occurs only once in three years, to register my protest. Let any honorable member read the declaration, and ask himself if any man could do more to prove that he had all the evidence on his side. 64 KDZ Grampians 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT .- Having been present in the chamber throughout all the proceedings referred to by the Leader of the Opposition, it is only fair to those who were not present on that occasion that I should state a little more than has been said with regard to the incident. Concerning the remarks of the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) I am able to state ' that everything he said regarding what happened upon the occasion in question is absolutely accurate. I can, from my own recollection, confirm his account. But, with regard to the implication that the Chairman of Committees in the last Parliament (the Hon. J. M. Chanter) was deliberately and intentionally unfair, I think it only right that one who was present and had personal knowledge of the whole incident should protest. There is not the slightest doubt regarding what occurred. There had been an all-night sitting. I understand that there are some twenty new members in this chamber. Most, if not all of them, are unfamiliar with all-night sittings. Possibly they will have become painfully familiar with such occurrences before long. 65 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - You were one of those who were always looking for all-night sittings. You would come here every day with your swag up. 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - That is not the point now, : Honorable members had gone through an all-night sitting of the House and we were resuming next day. The Chairman of Committees (Mr. Chanter) obviously referred- to and relied upon his notes. It is equally obvious that his notes on that occasion were inaccurate. There is not an honorable member of this House who fails to realize that the Chairman honestly believed that the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) had spoken twice. 65 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Why has he not said so? 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I cannot say. These situations are, after all, more the outcome of habit than anything else. Some people readily admit their mistakes, others do not; I have been accused by my friends of being one who is always too ready to apologize, and who withdraws what may be deemed to be an objectionable statement far too soon. It may be that there are honorable members opposite who are tardy in making reparation for 'hasty and unjust statements with respect to honorable members upon this side. 65 K4W 0 0 NICHOLLS, Samuel Mr Nicholls - I have always apologized for anything unkind I may have said about you. 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I am glad to hear that, ' and I believe it is true also. But I object to this whole subject being raised now, and to the stressing of the implication that Mr. Chanter was, upon the occasion in question, deliberately unfair. I am satisfied that he was not, but that he made a purely accidental mistake, and that he honestly believed that the honorable member for Yarra had spoken twice. 65 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - When I said that I had to withdraw it. 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I deprecate the fact that recriminations to which, unfortunately, we have become accustomed in the past should so soon be launched in this new Parliament. It was once said of a great house, whose scions came to their doom in- consequence of such principles, that of the past they forget nothing and from it they learn nothing. I trust that those remarks will never be said of the Opposition in this- chamber. 65 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - What we want to know is, are you a Government supporter? 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I am a member of the Australian Country party, which' is a very good party. I have not risen in support either of the Government or of the Opposition, or, indeed, of any party. This is not a party question, but one having to do with the impartiality of an honorable member who held an office of authority in this House. It is a subject which should be above all party. Had it been raised in a party spirit, such as the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) has implied, the procedure would be a degradation to this House and to those honorable members responsible. I plead that, in this new Parliament, which" consists of at least one-third new members, and includes the cream of the intellect of the country, as typified by the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. Nicholls), who has just interjected, we should endeavour to forget all those bitter memories of the past, all those personal, and almost vindictive, recollections 65 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - Is Mr. Chanter a member of your party ? 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - So far as I know, the honorable member for Riverina is perfectly able to answer for himself. 65 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - Did he not attend meetings in your party room- 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Mr. Chanter is as well able to speak for himself as is the honorable member for Darling. Other honorable members interjecting 65 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson - Order! I have called for order several times. I must ask honorable members to obey the Chair. 65 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Mr. Chanter endeavoured to be perfectly impartial. Upon the occasion under review he made a purely unintentional error. 66 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr Ryan - Did he admit his error? 66 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I am delighted to hear the voice of the new honorable member who has just interjected, but I would be still more pleased to listen to him upon an occasion when he was not interjecting during remarks made by myself. I strongly deprecate that this matter should have been raised, and I ask the House to unanimously elect the honorable member for Riverina to the office of Chairman of Committees. 66 JPV Darling 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY .- I move, by way of amendment - That the words " Riverina (the Hon. John Moore Chanter) " be omitted, and the words " Dalley (Mr. William George Mahony) " be inserted in lieu thereof. It is unnecessary for me to add that honorable members oh this side of the chamber believe that Mr. Mahony would carry out his duties equally as well as, if not better than, the honorable member who was Chairman of Committees during the last Parliament. I believe, at any rate, that no such quarrelling and fault-finding would have to be recorded, after three years' occupancy of the chair in Committee by the honorable member for Dalley as during the regime of ' the honorable member for Riverina. 66 KEV Maribyrnong 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON .- I second the amendment. I see no reason why these positions should not be contested. From whatever side of the House a member is chosen to occupy the position of a presiding officer, we have a right to look to him to deal out evenhanded justice. I know that there have been times when we have had an all-night sitting, after a long day in Committee, and without any sleep, when we say and do things which we afterwards regret. We usually find that if a man has made a mistake he has been ready to make amends. In the first words which I spoke here I said that it was likely that I would say and do things on the spur of the moment which I might afterwards have cause to regret, but that if I did I hoped that; I would always be found sufficiently manly to admit my mistake and own up, whether that involved a public apology or not. 66 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - The Chairman of Committees should set lau example in such matters. 66 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - I agree that our presiding officers, ki matters pertaining to the observance of the Standing Orders and decorum, should present a pattern and example which we should all be delighted to follow. The evidence which the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) has presented this morning shows conclusively that the gentleman who occupied the position of Chairman of Committees in the last Parliament made a mistake, and failed to admit it. I think that he ought now, even at the eleventh hour, to admit the mistake he made. A man who shows himself reluctant to admit that he made a mistake is likely, in the position of Chairman of Committees, to commit grievous errors in the future. I feel sure that if it had been the Prime Minister who suffered as the result of the mistake made by the honorable member for Riverina as Chairman of Committees in the last Parliament, he would have been only too ready to admit his mistake, but because it was the Leader of the Opposition who suffered as the result of his mistake, he is not prepared to admit it, even at the eleventh hour. 66 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That is a very grave charge to make. 66 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Then why has the honorable member for Riverina not admitted his mistake before? We should not forget that his denial of the right of the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) to speak a second time upon a clause of a Bill in Committee was accompanied by a threat which meant expulsion from the Chamber if the order of the Chair was not obeyed. It should be remembered, also, that the honorable member for Yarra deports himself in the* Chamber in a way which honorable members generally might well follow. He is amongst the least offensive members of the House, and is prompt in obeying the demands of the Chair. I have pleasure in seconding the amendment moved by the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley), in order that honorable members may he given an opportunity to show that they do not approve of some of the actions of the Chairman of Committees in the last Parliament, and may be able to record their votes against his election on this occasion. There seems to be a happy combination between the so-called Nationalist party and the so-called Country party.We have had an impassioned address by the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett), who urged the House to be unanimous in. placing the honorable member for Riverina in the chair as Chairman of Committees of this Parliament. It is significant that this appeal should have come from the Deputy Chairman of the Country party. It gives colour -to the rumour daily gaining currency that, after all, the so-called Country party is merely an unimportant wing of the National party. 67 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - Listen to the sneer at the "so-called" Country party. 67 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - By their votes on this question honorable members will show where they are. The records of divisions in this House live, and they indicate exactly the position of parties. 67 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - Of course, this is a party question, according to the honorable member. 67 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - It seems to me that the honorable member for Grampians is to-day just as responsive to the crack of the Ministerial whip ashe was in the last Parliament. I should prefer to see some evidence of heart and fight in the Country party, even upon a comparatively unimportant question. 67 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That is the honorable member's trouble, is it not? 67 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - We shall yet have plenty of trouble. It is sometimes desirable to gird a little at a certain section in this House when we find its members so amenable to the demands of the party in a majority. I shall content myself by saying that I will support the amendment in 'the hope that a majority of the members of this House will see their way to make a change in the occupant of the position of Chairman of Committees. 67 KXO Maranoa FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE . - I have nothing to say against the honorable member for Riverina as Chairman of Committees. I suppose that, like every other Chairman, he always looks after his pals. The only fair man I ever struck was Mr. Alex. Poynton, the honorable member for Grey. He made me go down on my knees, and apologize to him, when he was acting as Chairman of Committees, although he was a member of our party at the time. There was not much favoritism about that. The debate has shown that, the Country party, notwithstanding all the protestations wo have heard that it is separate and alone, has an honorable understanding with the Government. That has been made plain by the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett). 67 JOG 0 0 BAYLEY, James Mr Bayley - There will be another honorable member for Maranoa in three years' time. 67 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - The party to which the honorable member belongs has been trying for the last eight Parliaments to secure another member for Maranoa. If he will be my opponent I can tell him that I will go next time- 67 JOG 0 0 BAYLEY, James Mr Bayley - Out. 67 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - Every time the honorable member's friends have said that I would be out I have been returned. I can tell him that I will be in this Parliament when he will be out. 67 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member is wandering away from the question. 67 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - I have told the honorable member for Oxley and his friends in Brisbane that they will not get me out as member for Maranoa unless they cut the Barcoo out of my electorate. I am satisfied that the Country party is just as conservative as the other crowd opposite, and is only a Country party in name. 67 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - The Country party seems to be worrying the honorable member. 67 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member will resume his seat. There seems to be some misapprehension on the part of certain honorable members as to the question before the Chair. The question is the election of a Chairman of Committees, and not the views of parties in this House. 67 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - I do not know the name of the gentleman who interrupted me, or where he comes from, but after he has been here a little while he will understand that I shall not worry very much about himself or his party. The honorable member for Grampians has given the show away. I remember that, in connexion with a Wheat Commission which was inquiring in Adelaide, a statement was made to the effect that there was no combination and no Trust, but there was an honorable understanding, and it appears to me that the Prime Minister and his party have an honorable understanding if not with the Country party, them with the officials of that party, including the honorable member for Grampians. It is idle for us to nominate a candidate from this side. This is supposed to be an election by the House, but we know that it has been fixed up. Directly I came to Melbourne a member of the Farmers' party told me that the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Johnson) was going to be Speaker, and the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) was going to be Chairman of Committees. That is a peculiar thing, but he was a good tipster, if he was nothing else. If the officials of the party had not been discussing this particular matter, the individual members had evidently been discussing it among themselves. To debate the election of Chairman of Committees is beating the air, because it is a foregone conclusion that the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) is to be the man. I would point out to him that it is a hard thing for any man, when he does another a wrong, to own up to it publicly. 68 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - I do not see that it should be. 68 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - Well, it is a hard thing. The honorable member for Riverina accused another honorable member of doing something that he did not do, and then had the power of expelling him, when that man was leader of our party. If I had been in the position of our leader I should simply have sat down and said, " I am sticking for the truth, not for parliamentary procedure. Put me out." If he had been put out then for telling the truth, he would have had the sympathy, not only of the House, but of every man outside who believes that truth and justice should prevail above all things. 68 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The honorable member for Riverina had one of our members put out contrary to the Standing Orders. 68 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - The honorable member for Melbourne Pouts (Mr. Mathews) has escaped being put out many a time when he should have been. If he was put out on one occasion when he should not have been, it was only one instance the other way. I feel that the honorable member for Riverina, when elected, will be as fair as he possibly can be. He may make errors, but every man makes errors. If our protest does no harm or no good, it will at least let him know the feelings of us who are in opposition. I would remind the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) that ever since he has been in Parliament he has had the pleasure of sitting behind the Government. When he has a taste of sitting in Opposition, with a brutal majority against him on that side, such as we have against us now, I wonder whether he will put up as good a fight as we have done. During his first session he was always looking for an all-night sitting. He would come up here wrapped up in an overcoat weighing about 56 lbs., and with a- swag on his back like a black gin's benjamin, which had been carried about .the bush for twelve months, and with a billy-can and a water-bag in his hand, looking for it. No wonder the honorable member talks about all-night sittings. 68 K4W Macquarie 0 0 NICHOLLS, Samuel Mr NICHOLLS . - I support the nomination of the- honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony). I well remember the incident referred to by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor). Honorable members should, perhaps, sympathize with the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Chanter) instead of criticising him so severely. He has had considerable experience in the chair, but he has reached such a stage that he can no longer be relied upon. He has fallen into a condition of senile decay, and perhaps on that account it might be wise to relieve him of such an important position. Question - That the words " Riverina (the Hon. John Moore Chanter) " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " Dalley (Mr. William George Mahony) " (Mr. Blakeley amendment) - put. The House divided. 22 42 Majority 20 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Question - That the original question be agreed to - put. The House divided. 43 20 Majority ... ... 23 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. 69 JWY Riverina 0 0 CHANTER, John Mr CHANTER .- I desire to acknowledge the honour which has been paid me by electing me to the important position of Chairman of Committees arid Deputy Speaker of the House. I wish especially to thank the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) and the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Bamford) for having nominated me, and the other honorable gentlemen who have spoken to the motion. I desire also to assure honorable members that nothing that has taken place in this debate, no criticism passed upon me, "will influence me in the slightest degree in the performance of my duty. When I take the chair I know no party in this House, and I forget everything that has been said. I want to remind honorable members, if they will permit me to do so, without adopting the form of a lecture, that for the good conduct of business here there are Standing Orders made and approved by honorable members themselves for the guidance and direction of Mr. Speaker and myself when we occupy our judicial positions. If these Standing Orders are thought to be inadequate, it is within the power of honorable members to alter them. It is the duty - the imperative duty - of the presiding officers to interpret them to the best of their ability, and in an impartial manner. I may also be permitted to remind honorable members that the dignity and decorum of this House cannot be maintained by presiding officers without the assistance of honorable members themselves. They must have that support. If Mr. Speaker or I, when acting in our respective capacities, make mistakes, we are immediately open to challenge.I leave my past record in the hands of those honorable members with whom I have been associated, and my future with the members of the present Parliament. I shall be judged by my actions. All I can say is that I shall do my duty fearlessly and impartially, and as courteously as possible, in accordance with the Standing Orders. Again I thank honorable members for the honour they have conferred on me. 69 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Minister for the Navy 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK .- I rise to offer my very warm congratulations to the honorable member who has just resumed these new responsibilities. As an old parliamentarian, and one who, I believe, has come under the lash both - of Mr. Speaker and the Chairman of Committees 70 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Not lately. 70 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - May I suggest that we always think the other fellow, -and not ourselves, deserving of reproof? I now admit quite frankly that when I have come under the lash either of Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees, I think I deserved it, though sometimes I thought otherwise. But whatever our individual opinions, or our likes and dislikes may be, we should not forget what we owe to those who are intrusted with the important duty of presiding over the proceedings in this House. Now. that the little breeze is over - I regret very much that it should have blown over these proceedings, and particularly in connexion with a man of the venerable character of Mr. Chanter 70 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - But he never acknowledges his mistakes. 70 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - We have heard a good deal this morning from honorable members opposite about acknowledging mistakes, and in connexion with this matter I do not charge my memory -with one single case in which a member of that side ever acknowledged an error. 70 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Because we are always right. 70 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Now, there is the explanation ! The honorable member for East Sydney declares, that honorable members opposite are always right. Ti want to say, however, that I have known Mr. Chanter for many years. I knew him when he was a Minister in the !New South Wales Government thirty-four years ago, and I am exceedingly pleased to see him occupying the position of Chairman of Committees in this House at this time of day. I am sure we shall be safe in his hands, and I congratulate him. 70 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - You are all right. 70 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That may be so, though no one' knows better than the honorable member who has interjected that I have not always been safe. But these are little incidents in the parliamentary life of every honorable member. I feel very warmly towards my honorable friend who has just been elected to this important position, and I hope he will have a successful three years of office. 70 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - Is it not a fact that the Minister is about to transfer to a calmer atmosphere ? 70 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - No, I do not know anything about it. I like the society of my honorable friends opposite so much that I propose to stay amongst them. As to my honorable friend, the Chairman of Committees, I hope he will have good health and strength for the performance of his arduous duties, for, indeed, they are arduous in these days. Sometimes, I think we do not make enough allowance for Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees. We are prone to forget that they are human beings and, like ourselves, subject to all the disabilities of human nature. If we can only think of them just as men like ourselves, serving in their high offices to the best of their ability, I think we would then make more allowances and have more consideration for them. Notwithstanding the criticism that has been offered to-day, I feel that I can assure Mr. Chanter of the warm support of honorable members in the discharge of his duties. 70 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - I desire to make a personal explanation in connexion with the vote that has just been taken. Owing to the fact that the bells began to ring whilst honorable members on both sides were on their feet, I -was not aware that the time within which honorable members could cross the Chamber had expired. I intended to vote on the other side. Three of my colleagues in the Country party were in the same position. I make this explanation on behalf of myself and my two colleagues1. Although our votes were recorded with the " Ayes," it was our intention to vote with the " Noes." 70 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - I am one of the three. 70 KXG Balaclava NAT Treasurer 1 0 WATT, William Mr WATT . - I am sure we all sympathize with those honorable members who made a mistake in recording their votes on the last division. We often make mistakes in voting, and these honorable members have acknowledged that they omitted to cross the chamber at the proper time. I think it is a lesson to us all that we should not vote against people because they have made mistakes. 71 Supply 71 Motion (by Mr. Watt) proposed - That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to His Majesty. 71 L0H West Sydney 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN .- Earlier in to-day's proceedings the Prime Minister moved the suspension of the Standing Orders to enable a Supply Bill to be introduced before the debate on the Address-in-Reply had been concluded. Nothing was said when that motion was submitted, and it was formally agreed to. I thought at the time that it was necessary to grant Supply to enable the members of the Civil Service to be paid, and I expected the Prime Minister to give reasons for submitting the motion. I understand the procedure is that before agreeing to a motion of this nature honorable members have an opportunity of ventilating grievances. The Government are about to ask for the sinews of war to enable them to carry on. Is Supply to be granted for any particular time? 71 KXO FT; ALP from 1903 0 0 PAGE, James Mr JAMES PAGE - For three months. 71 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I have not heard that from a Minister of the Crown. 71 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - We cannot tell the honorable member until we get into Committee. 71 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I think we ought to have that information before, because when the House goes into Committee we shall have virtually agreed to some amount. 71 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Some amount. 71 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I do not know how much. Unless there is some urgent reason, such as facilitating the payments of civil servants, I shall certainly object. Although the Government have been returned by a large majority, we do not know what support they are likely to receive from the House, because we have not had an opportunity of testing their strength. We do not know whether the party which calls itself the Country party is going to support or oppose the Government. 71 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - Why does the honorable member say " the party which calls itself the Country party ' ' ? 71 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I say it advisedly, and not offensively. But that is the view I hold regarding it. Before I agree to the motion to go into Committee of Supply I wish to hear from the Prime Minister, the Treasurer, or from one of the Ministers, something in regard to what I consider has been extravagant and reckless expenditure on the part of the Government. Honorable members may smile, but I am sure that the majority of the people of Australia is anxious to have some particulars in regard to this matter. It is strange, indeed, that the Auditor-General's report, which was issued about eight months ago, was laid on the table of this House only yesterday. I have not had an opportunity of perusing it, and I do not believe it has been printed or made available, to honorable members. I notice, however, from the press that there are certain items of expenditure and certain losses on which some information should be given. I refer to a statement in the daily press of to-day, headed " Shipping Losses," which reads - Details are furnished of the loss entailed upon the Commonwealth in connexion with shipbuilding in America. An agreement was made with the Patterson, McDonald Shipbuilding Company, Seattle, to construct ten wooden cargo-carrying steamers at a cost of 5,300,000 dollars. Subsequently the contract was so amended that the cost would have been 8,900,000 dollars. Advice had, Mr. Israel added, been received that eight of the ships had been sold at a loss of £326,000. In view of the enormous increase in cost compared with the original contract, a very fortunate sale would appear to have been made. I wish to know what the Government have to say in regard to that. The paper from which this statement is taken supports the Government - I do not know upon what grounds - and the statement concludes, " a very fortunate sale would appear to have been made." The people of this country, as well as the members of this House, should have some explanation, and I am sure the primary producers in particular will want to know more about it. 71 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - Is the honorable member quoting from the Argus? 71 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I am. 71 KXG 0 0 WATT, William Mr Watt - You do not always quote the Argus. 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - Perhaps not. I am quoting from the Auditor-General's report, as published in the Argus, which shows that an alteration was made in the contract involving an increased cost of some hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that on the sale of these ships there was a loss of £326,000. 72 KWL 0 0 TUDOR, Frank Mr Tudor - Did he say anything about the Sydney contract? 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - I intend to refer to that. The Auditor-General's report continues - An expensive experiment was the establishment of a Directorate of War Propaganda. It had a very brief existence, and cost £2,266; I want to know all about that, and the reason for its discontinuance. It may be that Ministers are able to give some satisfactory explanation, and, if so, well and good. The report also refers to the cancellation of a contract with the Wallace Power Boat Company Limited, in the following terms: - Cancellation of a contract with the Wallace Power Boat Company Limited, of New South Wales, for the construction of six wooden barquentines cost, including progress payments, £51,839, while the cancellation of another contract with Hughes, Martin, and Washington Limited, New South Wales, cost £72,500. Why was it necessary to cancel those contracts, 'and why was such a loss incurred ? 72 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - That information was given to the House last year. 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - If a satisfactory explanation can be given, I shall have nothing further to say; but on the face of the Auditor-General's report, it does not appear that any great business capacity was shown by the Government in making contracts which were subsequently cancelled, and at a loss to the taxpayers of such a large amount of money. If they can give an explanation, let them give it. I am also anxious to know before the House resolves itself into a Committee of Supply, who bore the expense in connexion with the hold-up of shipping, arising out of the dispute with the Institute of Marine Engineers. I want to know whether a large proportion of that expense of holding up ships which do not belong to the Commonwealth, was borne by the Commonwealth Government. It is a most important matter, in which a very large majority of the people of Australia are interested, and if that expense was borne by the Government, we should have a full statement of the reasons why. I cannot go categorically into all the matters I wish to refer to, upon which the Government could be criticised at this moment, but there are some things on which it is appropriate a pronouncement should be made at the earliest possible moment, because they are of vital importance, affecting as they do the interests of the whole of the people. We all know that, since the election's of the 13th December last, there has been a sharp rise in the cost of living. 72 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - That was only natural. 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - Yes. It was pointed out by candidates who faced the electors that it would come about. I do not quarrel with the decision of the people of Australia, but I feel it is my duty in the interests of the electors of West Sydney to have something to say on this matter, because, although we have not succeeded in preventing a Government getting into power that is, in my opinion, backed by the profiteering interests of the country, we may still be able to do something in order to prevent that profiteering pressing too heavily on the people. 72 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - The honorable member advised the people to vote against giving the Commonwealth Government the necessary powers to deal with profiteering. 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - The High Court has not yet decided that the Commonwealth Government have not the power to deal with profiteering. Imagine an interjection of that sort coming from, an honorable member supporting the Government when he knows that, at the very height of their power, under the War Precautions Act, they repealed all regulations having anything to do with the controlling of profiteering ! 72 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - It was done at the instigation of Opposition members. 72 L0H 0 0 RYAN, Thomas Mr RYAN - Not at all. There is no better evidence of what the Government believed to be their power under the War Precautions Act than the drastic regulation proclaimed the other day dealing with the Institute of Marine Engineers, the most undemocratic regulation ever issued by a British Government. ' That proclamation, which prevented a body of men from making use of their own funds for the maintenance of their wives and families without the consent of the Attorney-General, was ample evidence of the view which the Attorney-General (Mr. Hughes) holds of the powers the Government possess under the War Precautions Act. Otherwise it was a gigantic piece of bluff on the 'part of the Government in order to achieve the result they desired. As I was saying, the Government, at the height of their power, when there could be no dispute as to their having complete authority under the War Precautions Act, repealed all regulations which had any bearing upon a reduction- in the cost of living in Australia. I ask leave to continue my remarks on a future occasion. Leave granted; debate adjourned. 73 adjournment 73 73 DQC Bendigo NAT Prime Minister and Attorney-General 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. As honorable members know, there is to be a luncheon- to Sir Ross Smith and his companions, ari-d seeing that the House usually adjourns on Friday at 4 o'clock, if honorable members have no objection, it would perhaps be as well to adjourn now. Question resolved in the affirmative. 73 12:58:00 House adjourned at 12.58 p.m.