1921-10-26 8 1 0 REPS 12142 0 House of Representatives. 1921-10-26 Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 12142 Questions 12142 Land Tenure, Queensland. - Homes in Country Districts. 12142 KIT 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr MACKAY - Has the Assistant Minister for Repatriation any further information about the building of War Service Homes on land which is held under a perpetual lease or a miner's homestead lease? 12142 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - On the 19th October, the honorable member asked me if the Government had been able to arrange with the Government of Queensland for the surrender of leaseholds to permit of War Service Homes being erected on freeholds, it being the policy of this Government that that shall be the tenure. At the time, I had not received a definite reply from the Queensland authorities, but a letter has since come from the Premier of the State, in which he advises that his Government is not disposed to alter the tenure of land held under perpetual or miner's homestead lease. 12142 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Have new arrangements been made for the erection of soldiers' homes in Western Australia, and, more particularly, for the erection of such homes in the country districts of the State? 12142 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - A premature announcement on the subject was made in Western Australia a few days ago; but we are about to conclude an arrangement with the Government of the State highly satisfactory to this Government, the soldiers, and to the Commonwealth. It provides for the completion of the balance of our programme of construction in that State, and for giving effect to our policy of developing country construction separate from metropolitan construction. 12142 12142 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY - Can the Minister who is in charge of shipbuilding explain why a start has not been made with the construction at Cockatoo Island of the 12,000- ton merchant vessels of which Parliament has approved? 12142 KYD NAT 1 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I understand that there has been delay in connexion with the shipbuilding agreement. 12142 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - That is all fixed up. 12142 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - I have not been advised. 12142 12142 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - In view of tha enormous rents paid for Federal offices in Melbourne, will the Prime Minister request Cabinet to consider the completion of the Melbourne Post Office, and remove the present eye-sore of a tin shanty in Elizabeth-street, especially in view of the reported intention to spend one-third of a million on the Sydney Post Office? 12142 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - I shall be glad to ask the Cabinet to consider the matter, although I think it would be more appropriate to ask this House whether it is not of the opinion that, in the impecunious state of the country, we could well continue to do our business in tin shanties until the return of normal conditions, which, we are told, will come in due season. 12142 12142 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr HECTOR LAMOND - In view of the distress caused by lack of employment among returned soldiers, will the Government consider the establishment of a scheme which will afford either work or relief to families that are now destitute! Some of the cases are appalling. 12143 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - It is extremely difficult to know how to reply to these questions, since the Government is told, on the one hand, that it must not spend money, and, on the other, that it must start works for the absorption of the unemployed. As I understand that contributions to this question will come from various quarters during the debate which is to be continued this afternoon, I shall listen with interest to any suggestions that may be made by the adoption of which we could do both of these very desirable things. 12143 12143 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr MARKS - In order to settle the continued press and public controversy as to Australia's contribution to Empire naval defence, I desire to ask the Prime Minister a question dealing with the matter. The Imperial Conference, I understand, considered the following points: - (a) Co-operation between the various portions of the Empire, (b) one power standard as a minimum, (c) method and expense of Empire cooperation to be settled by the various Parliaments, (d) the final determination of the various Parliaments to be deferred until after the. Washington Conference ; and settled (b) and (d). Do I gather rightly that this Parliament will not be asked to consider Australia's co-operation until after the Washington Conference? 12143 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - The honorable member has been correctly informed that the Imperial Conference considered the matter of co-operation between the various portions of the Empire, and left the methed and expense of it to be settled by the various Parliaments. It also decided upon the one power standard as a minimum, and that the final determination of the Parliaments on the subject should be deferred until after the Washington Conference. It considered, but arrived at no decision on the subject, the co-operation between the various portions of the Empire. Two points were settled, one being that the Empire qua Empire must have a one-power standard as a minimum, and the other that the manner of the co-operation between the various portions of the Empire should be settled by the various Parliaments after the sittings of the Washington Conference. 12143 12143 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - Will the Minister for Home and Territories give sympathetic consideration to the suggestion that a pension shall be provided for Henry Lawson sufficient to keep him in some degree of comfort for the remainder of his days? When the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony) asked this question on my behalf the Minister said that he would like a suggestion as to the amount to be provided. I think that the honorable gentleman should easily arrive at a satisfactory amount - £3, £4, or £5 per week, as may be considered sufficient. 12143 KYD NAT 1 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - In the answer I gave to the honorable member's question last week I expressed my sympathy with Mr. Lawson, but said that the fund was exhausted. If the fund were replenished, we could readily make provision for him. 12143 12143 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Is the Minister for Trade and Customs aware that very large quantities of news print manufactured in Japan are finding their way into Australia, and that it is said that four big metropolitan newspapers in Australia are being, or have been, printed on Japanese manufactured paper? Having regard to the fact that under the Tariff we have given some measure of preference to Great Britain, and that from 40,000 to 50,000 persons in the paper industry of the Old Country are partially or wholly unemployed, will he take steps to prevent these large quantities of Japanese news print coming into Australia? 12143 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The matter has been brought under my notice. I suggest that an appropriate time to discuss this question will be when the Tariff item relating to news print is before the Committee in connexion with the requests made by another place. 12143 12143 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN - In view of the need for economy, will the Prime Minister try to arrange for the coming Premiers' Conference to be held at Canberra, instead of at Melbourne? 12144 DQC NAT 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES - That would be a splendid idea. I have no doubt that the economies so secured would be considerable. I am afraid, however, that the honorable member is overlooking one point which I also missed. The invitations that I issued met with such an enthusiastic response as to rather astonish me, until it occurred to me that inadvertently I had called the Conference for the date on which the Melbourne Cup is about to be run. Might I suggest to the honorable member for Canberra that it would be a very splendid idea, and one calculated to give the Capital an entirely new aspect, if some great event, such as the Melbourne Cup, were to be moved there? I think that an invitation then sent to the Premiers, and, indeed, to the people of Australia generally, to meet there would receive the same enthusiastic response as that which has attended my invitation to the Premiers to come here. 12144 12144 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Whether it is a fact that sugar is supplied to Australian jam manufacturers at £26 per ton for the purpose of manufacturing jam for the export trade? Is it a fact that for Australian consumption the charge is £46? If so, does the Minister intend to take any steps to rectify this apparently serious anomaly ? 12144 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - Yes. The price is £46 ls. 6d. per ton. It has always been the practice to allow a rebate on sugar used in export jams and fruits to enable jam manufacturers and others to compete in the world's markets, and in that way to assist the orchardists to obtain a market for their surplus fruit. The present arrangements arc simply a continuance of that policy. It may be added that, though the present price of sugar in Australia is somewhat above that in some countries, there has been an immense net saving to the Australian public over the, whole period of control. 12144 12144 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY asked the Minister in charge of Shipbuilding, upon notice - How many days waB the ferry boat Biloela in the charge of the Island Transport Company? Were any material or goods supplied by Cockatoo Island Dockyard to such company for use on the Biloela; if so, what were the material or goods? If so, why has no money been received by the Dockyard from the Island Transport Company for the use of the Biloela or for the supply of such material or goods? 12144 KYD NAT 1 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr POYNTON - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Six days. Yes. Coal, oil, and waste. No claims have yet been rendered by the Dockyard to the Island Transport Company for the hire of the vessel or for the stores supplied. These claims will be rendered in the usual course. 12144 12144 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Will he inform the House if the following reasons, amongst others, induced the Government to propose to establish the explosives industry in Australia, viz.: - Helping the development of Australia, In pursuance of the Protective policy of Australia. Helping the production of coal in Australia. Helping the defence of Australia. Helping the development of gold and other mining production in Australia? Has the Government abandoned this policy; and, if so, will he inform the House what were the reasons for such abandonment? Were any threats made from outside? 12144 KNF LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 MASSY-GREENE, Walter Mr GREENE - The answer to the honorable member's questions is as follows : - 1, 2, and 3. When the Government decided to recommend a deferred duty on explosives it had reason to believe that such a policy would lead to the establishment of a modern explosives factory which in time of war would be of great value to the country. As there does not appear to be any immediate prospect of these anticipations being realized, the Government decided, for the time being, to abandon the proposal. 12144 Returned Sailors' and Soldiers' Imperial League 12144 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr MAHONY asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Is it a fact that three members of the Returned Sailors' and Soldiers' Imperial League have been appointed by the Federal Government as organizers in seeking employment for mcn out of work? Is it a fact that only members of this league are receiving employment from this source? Has the Returned Sailors' and Soldiers' Imperial League undertaken the Employment Bureau connected with the Repatriation Department? 12145 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The Assistant Minister for Repatriation will answer the honorable member's questions. 12145 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Recently with a view to assisting in the endeavour to obtain work for ex-soldiers, the Government approved of financial assistance for a limited period being made available to the Returned Sailors' and Soldiers' Imperial League to permit of a more extended canvass being made through the agency of that body. The league appointed its own canvassers. No. No. See No. 1. 12145 12145 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Will he furnish to the House an epitome contrasting the taxation enforced in the United Kingdom and Australia, in order that members may compare the various means of raising revenue? 12145 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The information desired by the honorable member has been compiled, and is as follows: - INCOME TAX General Exemption United Kingdom, Exemption where total income does not exceed £130. Abatements of £120, £100, or £70 where total income does not exceed £400, £600, or £700 respectively. Commonwealth Exemption of£156 to married persons or persons with dependants. The exemption diminishes by £1 for every £3 of the excess over £156. Exemption of £100 to single persons without dependants diminishes by £1 for every £5 of the excess over £100. New South Wales Exemption of £250 Victoria Up to £500 exemption of £150, over £500 no exemption. Queensland Up to £200 of net income no liability to tax. Where net income exceeds £200 exemption is reduced by £1 for every £4 above £200, so that exemption vanishes at £1,000. South Australia Exemption of £150 Western Australia Exemption of £100 for single person and £156 for married person. Tasmania Returned soldier unmarried, £156 ; returned soldier married or widower, or widow having dependant child under 16, £200 ; person not a returned soldier unmarried, £125 ; person not a returned soldier married or widower or widow, £156. Commonwealth ofaustralia. Income from Personal Exertion - Rate of Tax upon Income derived from Personal Exertion. For so much of the whole taxable income as does not exceed £7,600 the average rate of tax per pound sterling shall bo threepence and three eight-hundredths of one penny where the taxable income is One pound sterling, and shall increase uniformly with each increase of One pound sterling of the taxable income by three eight-hundredths of one penny. The average rate of tax per pound sterling for so much of the taxable income as does not exceed £7,600 may be calculated from the following formula : - For every pound sterling of taxable income in excess of £7,600 the rate of tax shall be sixty pence. COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA Income from Property. - Rate of Tax upon Income derived from Property. For such part of the taxable income as does not exceed £546 the average rate of tax per pound sterling shall be given in the following formula : - For such part of the taxable income as exceeds £546 but does not exceed £2,000 the additional tax for each additional pound of taxable income above £546 shall increase continuously with the increase of the taxable income in a curve of the second degree in such a manner that the increase of tax for one pound increase of taxable income shall be - For such part of the taxable income as exceeds £2,000 but does not exceed £6,500 the additional tax for each additional pound of taxable income above £2,000 shall increase continuously with the increase of the taxable income in a curve of the third degree in such a manner that the increase of tax for one pound increase of taxable income shall be - For every pound sterling of taxable income in excess of £6,500the rate of tax shall be60pence. In addition to the above rules there is a super-tax of 70 625 per cent. Company rate - 2s. 8d. in the £1. Queensland Income from personal exertion - On the first £1 of taxable income derived from personal exertion the rate is 6 6/1000d., increasing with every additional £1 by 6/1000d. to 30d. in the £1 when the income reached £4,000. Exceeding £4,000- on the first £4,000, 30d. in the £1 ; on each £1 in excess of £4,000, 36d. in the £1. Taxpayers deriving income from freehold lands the unimproved value of which does not exceed £1,280 may deduct the land tax paid on such lands. Prom produce of property and taxable incomes of absentees - On the first £1 the rate is 12 4/1000d., increasing with every additional £1 by 4/1000d. until the taxable income reaches £3,000. when the rate is 24d. From £3,001 to £4,000 rate increases by 6/1000d. to 30d. in the £1 at £4,000. From £4,000 upwards 30d. in the £1 on the first £4,000 and36d in the £1 on the excess. Where income is derived partly from personal exertion and partly from property tax is charged under each heading at the rate which would be applicable if the whole income were taxable only under that heading. A super-tax of 20 per cent. is charged with a reducing exemption of £200. Companies. - Companies generally except foreign companies (see below) are taxed according to profits made. CompanyRate. Chargeable at property rate. Life Assurance Companies at one-half rate. INCOME TAX Western Australia On taxable income not exceeding £7,766 the rate of tax per £1 sterling is 2006 pence where the income chargeable is £101 and shall increase uniformly with each increase of £1 sterling of the. income chargeable by006 pence. Such rate of tax may be calculated from the following formula : - Income exceeding £7,766- 4s. in £1. In addition to the above, there is a super-tax of 15 per cent. Property rate is the same as Personal Exertion rate. Dividend Duties Act -1s. 3d. in the £1. Company Rate. 1s. 3d. in £1. Additional tax of one-fifth of the above rate. LAND TAX Commonwealth of Australia Statutory exemption to residents of £5.000. Absentees, no statutory exemption. Rate of tax to residents - For each £1 in excess of £75,000, rate of tax is 9d. Rate of tax to absentees - Up to £5,000,1d. in the £1. From £5,000 to £80,000 2 l/18750d. for first £1 of excess over £5,000, and increasing uniformly by 1/18750 of a1d. per £1. For every £1 in excess of £80,000, 10d. in £1. In addition to the above rates, there is a super-tax of 20 per cent. New South Wales General exemption £240. Tax of1d. in the £1, which applies to freehold lands only in the Western Division. victoria. General exemption £250, diminishing at rate of £1 for every £1 in excess of £250, so as to leave no exemption when Unimproved Value reaches £500. Rate of Tax,½d. in £. Queensland General exemption of £300, but this is not allowed to absentees or companies. If the taxable value - Provided that if the taxable value of all the land owned by a taxpayer is less than £750, and all such land is used by him only for agricultural, dairying, or grazing purposes or a combination of any such purposes, the rate of tax shall be - If the taxable value - And in addition- on all undeveloped land - . In respect of the financial year beginning 1.7.1915 - Nil. In respect of the financial year beginning 1.7.1916 -1d. in each and every £ of the taxable value. In respect of the financial year beginning 1.7.1917 - l½d. in each and every £ of taxable value. In respect of the financial year beginning 1.7.1918 - 2d. in each and every £ of taxable value. In respect of the financial years thereafter - 2d. in each and every £ of the value, and m assessing such value no amount of exemption shall be deducted. SOUTH AUSTRALIA Land Tax No general exemption. Rates - Up to £5,000,½d.in the £1. Exceeding £5,000, an additional½d. for each £1 above £5,000. If the owner is an absentee, an extra 20 per cent. on above rates. (Land is liable to the absentee tax if three-fifths of the entire beneficial interest is held by absentees.) The absentee tax is not imposed in the case of a life insurance company doing business on the mutual principle, nor in any case where the income is used for public or charitable purposes. WESTERN AUSTRALIA General exemption- £50 U.V. and £250 I.V. Rate of tax -1d. in the £1. Absentees -1½d. in the £1. Tasmania Amusements duty shall be payable as fellows : - EXCESS PROFITS DUTY United Kingdom A tax of 60 per cent. of any excess profits was levied on profits arising in the accounting period commencing on or after 1st January, 1920. (This tax has now been terminated.) Australia A tax of 75per cent. of any excess profits was levied on profits arising in the accounting period commencing on or after 1st July, 1916. (This tax has now been terminated.) 12157 papers The following papers were presented: - Customs Act - Proclamation (dated 5th October, 1921) revoking Proclamation (dated 28th August, 1918), and prohibiting the Exportation (except under certain conditions) of Butter. Excise Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1921, No. 194. Northern Territory - Ordinances of 1921 - No. 11 - Darwin Town Council (No. 4). No. 13 - Observance of Law. Public Service Act - Appointments of Dr. G. H. Brandis and Dr. L. P. Brent, Department of Health. Railways Act - By-law No. 20. War Service Homes Act - Land acquired under, in New South Wales, at - Balmain, Hamilton, Weston. 12157 Budget 12157 Debate resumed from 21st October, (vide page 12140), on motion by Sir Joseph Cook - That the first item in the Estimates, under Division I., The Parliament, namely, "The President, £1,100," be agreed to. On which Dr. Earle Page had. moved, by way of amendment - That the item be reduced by 10s., and that this be taken as an instruction to the Government to reconsider the Estimates for the purpose of reducing the total expenditure from revenue by the sum of £2,817,108, the amount of the anticipated deficit, in order to square the ledger. 12157 KFE Dampier 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- In supporting the amendment submitted by the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), I desire, first of all, to express my surprise at the answer which the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) gave this afternoon to a question addressed to him. One would assume from it that the right honorable gentleman classed economy with extravagance. I am satisfied, however, that when he wants money he goes not to the spendthrift but to the economist. There is much difference between economy and extravagance. It was suggested by the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) that our Leader in submitting his amendment represented only what he termed the extreme section of the Country party. I want to assure the Committee that he is representing every member of this party, and that we are perfectly sincere in our desire. This is not the first time that an effort has been made by us to secure economy in the administration of the finances of the Commonwealth. The amendment was well considered before submission, and. we realized to the fullest extent the responsibility that we were taking in putting it before the Committee. Our desire is that honorable members generally will realize fully their responsibilities in respect of it. 12157 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr Foley - But there is a big difference of opinion as to the direction in which economies should be made. 12157 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Yes. Honorable members, however, have to reply to only their constituents. We may be wrong in the suggestion we are bringing forward, but we feel we are fully justified in submitting the question to the Committee, and we ask the Government to give us that economy which we conceive to be absolutely necessary. We demand, and have demanded for a long time, constitutional government. I do not care what party is in power, so long as Parliament decides that certain things shall be done. I am always prepared to follow the law and use constitutional methods of getting over any difficulty that may arise with regard to my opinions.We must, however, have constitutional government, and I think that every member is of that opinion. During the war we were quite prepared to permit the Government to undertake responsibilities without conferring with Parliament. To-day the position is entirely different ; and, in my opinion, every member of the Parliament should insist that we return to that system of government we enjoyed prior to thewar.We require, secondly, economic administration. I am sure that there is not a member of the Country party who would for one moment declare that public works shall cease to be carried out; but we recognise the fact that for many years there has been no economy in the administration of the affairs of Australia. There has been extravagance, not only so far as Parliament is concerned, but amongst the public generally, and it behoves us, as the representatives of the people, to give a lead. We have heavy debts to finance, and we have made promises to the soldiers which require large sums in order that they may be carried out to the very letter. To that end we demand that there shall be economy in administration, and an immediate stoppage of the present extravagance. I regretted to observe the attitude of the Prime Minister when the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) was submitting his amendment. That honorable member may be somewhat of a novice here - he has not had a long parliamentary experience; but I venture to say that there are very few members who have been here only for the duration of his term who could have dealt with the subject in the same terms, and shown such a grasp of the facts, as he did. He may have made a few errors, but they are errors which any one might make under the circumstances. Few of us, even Ministers, could take up the Budget and deliver an address showing how economies could be effected, and quote figures so full of intricate details, without falling into some error. It is extremely difficult to understand how the Treasury officials frame the figures; they do not adopt the same methods as those adopted by the ordinary commercial man. Even the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook), as I shall show later, has made errors in his Budget statement. But the levity of the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) was quickly changed when he saw the attitude of the Chamber, and began to realize that there were honorable members, particularly among his own followers, who were strongly desirous of supporting the amendment, not because they desire to oust the Government- 12158 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member talks of constitutional government - does he not know that constitutional government requires that this motion be taken as the most deadly of all censure motions? 12158 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Then why did not the Treasurer or the Leader of the Government take the usual action? 12158 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - We should have done so. 12158 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - How was it, then, that the Government did not make up their minds to accept this as a no-confidence motion until they saw the danger ahead? What is the usual attitude of a Leader of a Government under such circumstances? Was the usual practice followed to-day at question time? 12158 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Keep to the point, sir - constitutional government ! 12158 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - It is for the Government to decide whether a motion or amendment is or is not one of censure. The honorable member for Cowper submitted this amendment feeling sure that the Government would not treat it as one of want of confidence; and the Government did not so treat it until later. As I say, even to-day all questions have been answered, and Ministers are taking full responsibility, and showing that they do not treat the amendment as one of censure. 12158 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Oh yes, they do. 12158 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - Does the Country party intend it as a motion of censure ? 12158 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - When I returned from Western Australia, and was shown the amendment, I pointed out that it must be accepted as one of censure against the Government, and, after consideration, I declared my intention of supporting it, as I am now doing. However, I was referring to th,6 levity shown at the early stages of the debate by the Prime Minister - a levity that was insulting as a contrast. I do not think that this House has experienced anything so humiliating as it did on Friday last when the honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Bayley) rose in. his place, and the Prime Minister came in to answer questions. I repeat that I have never seen anything so humiliating as the conduct of the Leader of the Government on that occasion, when he gave promise after promise in regard to specific requests in order that the honorable member for Oxley, and others of the National party, should be able to salve their conscience by so phistically explaining to their constituents that they were all in favour of economy, and that the Prime Minister had' afforded every opportunity for its exercise when they reached the' individual votes on the Estimates. 12159 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The Prime Minister gave no promise that had not been given two or three times in the course of the debate. 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - We all know that when we come to the individual items it is a matter of member against member, and, probably, State against State. In the case of the Defence Estimates, for example, honorable members opposite have already moved that they be reduced by £2,800,000. 12159 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - And your party would not support us in any shape or form. 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - And why? After perusing the Estimates I was satisfied that the Defence vote should be considerably reduced. 12159 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton -. - Then why did you not move an amendment to my proposal? 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I do not think that the whole reduction should be made on that vote alone; there are many items which show excess of costs, and reductions should be made in those. The proposal of the honorable member for Hunter (Mt. Charlton) was all right in its way, but it is impossible for members, without that knowledge of the Departments which Ministers should have, and which departmental heads have," to effect reductions when dealing with individual votes. It is only a farce to suggest that that should be done. The responsibility rests wholly and solely with the Government. From an old campaigner like the Treasurer I am surprised to hear what I can only describe as his plaintive wailings at the way in which his Budget is being attacked. 12159 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - There were no "wailings," whatever else there may have been. 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I must say that I do not think there is a member of the 1 Chamber who has more, or closer, friends than the Treasurer. The criticism .that has been directed against the Budget, and sometimes against the Treasurer, is in no way personal, except in so far as it relates to the Treasurer as one of the most prominent members of the Government. He should not complain of a little hard hitting, because I know of no honorable member who is so strong in his criticism as was the right honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Joseph Cook) in the old days, when he was Leader of the Opposition. The mild yet earnest criticism offered by the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) cannot be compared with the arbitrary and imperious demands made by the present Treasurer when the Fisher Government were in office. 12159 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - He was a brute then. 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The Treasurer is a good fighter, and I am sorry that my policy makes it necessary for me to attack him. However, the interests of the country must be considered first. I wish to make it clear that the Country party realizes its responsibility in connexion with the amendment which our Leader has moved. The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) stated distinctly that in his opinion this Budget was extravagant. He realized that the time had arrived for economy in Commonwealth public services. 12159 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr Foley - He also said at the end of his speech- 12159 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - That he would like to save the Government. He told the Committee that if he could be satisfied that a stable Government would be formed, he would vote to put the present Ministry out of office. If the honorable member could see his way clear to form from honorable members on the Ministerial side a new and stable Administration, he would not continue to support the present Government. 12160 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr Foley - A lot of honorable members agree with him, and this vote will test them. Mi. GREGORY.- If the honorable member is of that opinion, the amendment will receive one vote that Ave have not been counting upon. 12160 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - The honorable member will find that the fruit is not yet ripe. 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The honorable member will hardly suggest that I have been a seeker of office. The Government will admit that on a couple of occasions when their' position was very serious I have shown my readiness to give them every opportunity. No one can accuse me of having sought favours, or suggest that I am supporting the amendment in the hope of plucking the fruits of office. In my opinion, it is absolutely impossible for this Committee to effectively alter- the Estimates. If honorable members think that the Estimates are extravagant, the only course open is to refer them back to the Government. It will be for the Government to consider what action they will take if the amendment is carried against them. 12160 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - What action would the honorable member take if he were a member of the Government? 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I would consider such a vote a straight-out expression of want of confidence. There can be no escaping from that view; and as soon as the amendment was moved the Government should have treated it as a motion1 of Avant of confidence. I am ashamed of the Government for not having done that. In the absence of departmental reports, it is very difficult for a private member to judge whether the Treasurer's estimate of revenue will be realized. The smattering of knowledge , one is able to gain by reading the daily press and the periodicals leads me to believe that there will be a considerable reduction of importations as a natural result of the operation of the new Tariff, and the reduction in the purchasing price of the people owing to the low prices received for all primary products. 12160 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - And " £5,000,000 has been allowed for that reduction. 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I agree with the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) that the Treasurer's estimate of revenue will not be realized. It is unfortunate that, although the last financial year closed some three months ago, honorable members have not yet received the report of the Taxation Commissioner, and, in the absence of official information, it is incredible that £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 is outstanding in respect of income tax, and, I hope, war-time profits tax. I assume that the Treasurer expects to receive this year the whole of the war-time profits tax that is in arrears. A sum of £2,000,000 has been placed on the Estimates on account of the war-time profits tax, and I should like to know how much of the £3,000,000 of arrears that has been already paid represents income tax and how much wartime profits tax. 12160 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - It covers all taxes. 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Unless a large proportion of the arrears are paid in during the current' year, the Government will not receive anything like the £15,000,000 of income taxation that they estimate, unless Parliament agrees to an increase in the rate of taxation, and we have been assured that that will not be proposed. 12160 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Let me state the case again. The arrears at present total £8,900,000- 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - How much of that is war-time profits tax ? 12160 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The total receipts from war-time profits tax are only £2,000,000. " Even if the honorable member agrees with me that there will be a normal amount remaining at the end pf the year, there is well over £5,000,000 extra to be collected in arrears, alone. 12160 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - If the arrears of income taxation amount to £8,900,000, does it not strike honorable members that there must be something very rotten in the finances of this country ? Must not this huge amount of arrears be due to appeal after appeal by men who have said that they have npt the money with which to pay the taxation demanded of them and must borrow for the purpose? Otherwise it would be impossible for such a large amount to be in arrears. 12160 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Everybody admits that there was a great shortage of cash last year. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - And there will be a big shortage of cash this year. 12161 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - No. That position has eased. ' 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - That is where we differ. It is more than possible that the Treasurer's estimate will not be realized. No doubt, when a> Tariff has just been altered, and when a country is suffering the usual bad times that follow a war, it is very difficult for any Treasurer to correctly estimate the revenue he is likely to receive; and the right honorable gentleman ought to remember that last year's estimate of the Customs revenue was very much out. It is quite possible that it will be equally as much out on the other side this year. 12161 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - - We have provided for being as much out the other way as we were last year. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - When we are dealing with the Estimates for the Taxation Department, I hope that full consideration will be given to the position of certain oil companies. I trust that the Treasurer will let honorable members know exactly how these companies stand, because it appears that one of them, which has been doing two-thirds of its business in Australia, has paid no taxation to the Commonwealth, while another, which has been doing only about one-third of the total business of the Commonwealth, has been obliged to pay very heavily. I have all the papers with me. It appears that in 1915 these facts were brought under the notice of the Taxation Department and the Attorney-General's Department, and that in the same year the Income Tax Assessment Act was amended in order to take away from the Commissioner of Taxation his power1 to levy a tax of 5 per cent, on the turnover of any company in regard to whose returns he did not feel satisfied. This amendment deprived the Commissioner of the power to> impose taxation upon a company which it was clearly apparent to ordinary business circles was earning huge profits, but being a subsidiary company to the various other corporations was enabled to transfer the whole of its profits to a foreign corporation and so avoid the payment of any taxation here. This case shows grave laxity either on the part of the Commissioner of Taxation in not bringing his knowledge before the Government or on the part of the Government, presuming they were possessed of the Commissioner's knowledge, in allowing' a measure to remain on the statute-book which enabled a company that had been successfully trading in Australia for many years to avoid all payment of taxation. I hope that the Treasurer will be able to tell the Committee what steps have been taken by the Government, first, in regard to the action instituted two and a half years ago against the Colonial Combing, Spinning, and Weaving Company for the recovery of a very large sum of money; and secondly, in regard to the advance of over £100,000 to Messrs. Kidman and Mayoh for the building of certain vessels, a matter into which the Public Works Committee inquired on behalf of the Government in December last. Both matters affect the finances to a considerable extent, and there should have been some finality in regard to them. 12161 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - There should have been, but we cannot get finality, because both matters are in the Law Courts. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The Treasurer complains that certain of the criticisms of the Leader of the Country party upon the manner in which the Budget had been prepared were somewhat caustic, but I think- it can be proved that the right honorable gentleman's complaint is not justified. We. are told that the gross public debt of the Commonwealth at 30th June, 1921, was £401,720,025, but that by deducting £69,710,993 for certain purposes the net Commonwealth debt at the same date was £332,009,032. The Treasurer is taking credit for loans to the extent of £16,750,000 raised by the Commonwealth in London for States public works, and for loans to the extent of £27,927,464 for soldier land settlement, wheat silos, &c. I would like to. know where the Treasurer, in making these deductions, got the money? 12161 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I got it from the people of Australia. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Was it not obtained mostly from the note issue ? 12161 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - No. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - What amount of money was advanced to the States from the Australian Notes Fund ? Sit' Joseph Cook. - I think that originally it was about £16,000,000, at the beginning of the war. 12161 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Would the amount 1 be the £16,750,000 described as having been raised by the Commonwealth in London foi States public works? 12162 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - There were two amounts- one of about £18,000,000, raised in London, and the other of about £16,000,000, taken from the Notes Fund. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I was under the impression that the Commonwealth Government raised an amount of money in London, but instead of advancing it to the States utilized it for their own purposes and made a separate advance to the States out of the Australian Notes Fund. 12162 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That is quite correct. That was the transaction which took place at the beginning of the war. London would not lend money to the States, but they were willing to lend it to the Commonwealth. Therefore, we borrowed it, and in turn, made advances to the States. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Was not the money advanced to the States taken from the Australian Notes Fund ? 12162 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Yes. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Therefore, money taken from the Notes Fund is still a debt against the Commonwealth. 12162 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Not against the Commonwealth, but against the States. They are paying interest on it. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The total value of notes in circulation at the end of July, 1921, was £58,140,012, against which the Commonwealth had a gold asset of £24,037,643, leaving a balance of £34,102,369, which has evidently been utilized by making loans to the States or by investments in Commonwealth activities. To that extent it is a Commonwealth debt, but it is not shown in any part of the Budget statement. 12162 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Yes, it is. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Undoubtedly it is not. In other words, our indebtedness as a people is £34,103,000 morel than is shown in the Treasurer's Budget statement, and to that extent it is a blunder. Our total indebtedness, Commonwealth and State, is nearly £817,000,000. Up to the end of June of this year Commonwealth payments in respect of interest and sinking fund totalled £21,594,000 per annum, and those of the States, up to Jnne of last year, £16,840,000, or a total of £38,434,000. My leader (Dr. Earle Page), and I also, -a fortnight ago dealt with the huge commitments of the Commonwealth and the States in the very near future. In 1923 Commonwealth loans to the amount of £39,000,000 will have to be redeemed. This money was obtained at4½ percent., and there is certainly no hope of redeeming it in 1923 at that rate. In 1924 there will be another £25,000,000, representing war gratuities, due for redemption; in 1925 another £74,000,000, and . in 1927 £75,000,000, or a total of £213,000,000 to be redeemed within the next six years. In addition, State loans to the amount of £154,000,000 fall due shortly. This money was borrowed at 3 per cent. or3½ per cent., and redemption loans will have to be floated at a much higher rate. It is clear, therefore, that within the next few years our interest and sinking fund obligations, which now represent about £38,500,000 a, year, will increase to £44,000,000 or £45,000,000. This position must cause honorable members a good deal of concern, especially in view of the fact that there will be insistent demands in all the States for additional loans for the purpose of developing this country. We must remember, also, that production is diminishing, and, what is worse, the value of our assets is depreciating. Take our railway systems. We have always boasted that the Commonwealth and State railways represent a great asset, sufficient, indeed, if sold, to pay off the whole of our national debt. But can any honorable member, after perusal of the financial statements of the various railway systems of the Commonwealth during the past few years, say that they are such a valuable asset to-day? 12162 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY -Do you want to sell them? 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I do not, and I am not suggesting that they should be sold; but unless considerable improvement is shown in their administration they will be com e more useless than at present as a revenue-earning asset, and the roads will be utilized to a greater extent for the carriage of our primary products to the seaboard. 12162 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr Foley - Is the honorable member in favour of the Commonwealth taking over the whole of the State railway systems? 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I am not. I have seen too much of inefficiency in Commonwealth administration in connexion with other activities to favour Commonwealth control of our State railways. 12162 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - But it is going to come, and the sooner the better. 12162 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I hope that time is a long way off yet. 12163 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine - Is the honorable member in favour of wiping out the Federal system, and allowing the States full control of these activities? 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - That would be better than the Federal system as administered during the last seven or eight years. I realize, of course, that much of this inefficiency is due to control by the party machine. If there were more independence in the selection of candidates for Parliament, we would have men here prepared to put the interests of Australia before the interests of party. Our whole financial position is drifting very seriously. I want to point to some startling examples in connexion with railway administration. Last year the South Australian railways showed a loss of £561,000, and the total deficit of the past five years is no less than £1,072,000. 12163 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - Not on railways alone? 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Yes, on the working of the railways. I obtained these figures from the official returns only a few nights ago. 12163 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - But I know that is not the position. 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The honorable member has no knowledge of this subject. I repeat that during the last five years the loss in working on the South Australian railways totals £1,072,000, and the worst feature is that the tonnage last year represented a reduction on the 1914 figures of no less than 300,000 tons. 12163 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - But give the reasons. The Broken .Hill mines were closed for two years. That traffic is a very big item in South Australian railway finance. 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The simple fact is that during the last five years the deficit has amounted to the sum I have stated. In Queensland the deficit in 1918-19 was £1,418,000; in 1919-20, £1,229,000; and in 1920-21, £1,739,000. In 1914 the tonnage was 4,301,000 tons, and in 1920-21 3,867,000 tons, the reduction again being very considerable. In "Western Australia in 1916-17 the deficit on working was £214,000; in 1917-18, £289,000; in 1918- 19, £359,000; in 1919-20, £399,000; and last year, £418,000. The tonnage in that State shows an increase from 2,750,000 tons in 1919-20, to 3,000,000 tons last year. In 'New South "Wales the deficit in 1918-19 was £193,000, and last year £137,000; but in that State also the tonnage shows a slight increase. Mr. Fraser, the Chief Commissioner, only about a" year ago pointed out that, although there had been a considerable increase in the mileage in the New South "Wales railway system, there had not been anything like a corresponding increase in the tonnage hauled. In Victoria in 1919 there was a loss of £163,000 in addition to a payment of £91,000 for non-paying lines, and in 1920 a loss of £212,000, although there was a fairly substantial increase in the tonnage as compared with the previous year. A careful examination ;of the population statistics discloses the dangerous position into which we are drifting. "We must do something to encourage production, particularly when we find that in a prosperous State such as Victoria the population in the metropolitan area has increased by 40 per cent., whilst that in the rural areas has increased by only 3 per cent. Figures such as those are very disquieting, and prove that the policies of the various Governments need amending in order that development in rural districts may be facilitated. 12163 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I am afraid the honorable member will find that it is the same everywhere. 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Yea; but we have to realize the danger. 12163 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I quite agree that it is very serious; our only comfort is that other countries are quite as badly off as we are. 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Other countries are worse off financially, but that is no reason why the drift should continue. I believe our true position has been apparent to the Treasurer for the last two years, but he is loath to admit it. 12163 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - On the contrary, I have been facing it for two years, but have not received any credit. 12163 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - One must excuse Ministers to some extent in connexion with their administration, because Parliament is almost continually in session, and they have not sufficient time to attend properly to administrative work; but they cannot altogether shirk their responsibilities. It is difficult and almost impossible for Ministers to keep in close touch with the activities of their Departments when the House is . sitting so constantly. I do not -desire my references to be regarded as attacks upon Ministers when I say that in almost every instance Departments are overmanned and the administration wasteful. The Prime Minister's Department, for instance, should not be a spending Department, but one to watch over all other Departments and to attend, among other matters, to the requests submitted by deputations. It is impossible for a Prime Minister to attend to his numerous duties and at the same time administer a huge spending Department. It is wrong from an administrative point of view. 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I agree with the honorable member entirely. 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I trust that in the near future the present policy will be altered so that the Prime Minister's Department shall cease to control various branches of the Service. Honorable members opposite do not wish our Public Works policy to be curtailed, because they are anxious that employment shall be found for our people; but it is useless to employ men on public works which are not returning interest on the capital. The present system is extravagant, and it is very desirable that many of the matters now dealt with by the Prime Minister's Department should be handled by other branches. In 1917- 1918 the cost of this Department was £162,000, but it has now grown to £329,000. The expenditure in the Department of the Treasury has increased from £451,000 in. 19.17-18 to £817,000. 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That is in collecting taxes. 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Yes; but we have a Taxation Department, and when inquiries were recently instituted in . Sydney and Melbourne in connexion with a request for accommodation for the Income Tax Department and other governmental activities it was found that in the Commonwealth Taxation Office in Sydney, 640 officers were employed, although only 140 were engaged in the State office. The State Department had nothing to do with land tax; but, quite apart from that, the difference is very marked. When inquiries were made in Melbourne it was found that in the Victorian State office, which dealt with land, income, and amusement taxation, they had 168 employees, whilst in the Commonwealth office there were 440 officers. 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - After all, the test is : What does it cost to collect in each case? 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - It is an extravagant system, which is creating a good deal of friction between the Department and business men. During the last few years quite a number of men have started in business in every city as taxation experts, who are finding remunerative employment in compiling the returns and in watching the assessments of taxpayers. Some of these men have done good work in fighting the Department, and in getting a reduction in the assessments made. 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - There is no doubt about that. 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - It seems extraordinary that the policy adopted by the Government should be the means of creating extensive employment in this direction. . 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - And all that given in, the cost of collecting in pre-war days was 5£ per cent., and to-day it is only 2£ per cent. That is the test. 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - There are instances where large sums are received, and which necessarily reduce the cost of collecting the whole. 12164 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I agree, but there it is. 12164 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - In comparison with the States the administration is extravagant. Honorable members consider that drastic reductions can be made in connexion with the proposed expenditure on defence ; but I do not think it is the duty of members of this Committee to say precisely where economy shall be effected in the Departments, because without a knowledge of departmental working we may unintentionally injure some deserving official. The cost of administration is abnormal, and the members of this party were hoping that the Treasurer had made up his mind to effect drastic economies in various directions. It would not be economical to stop all public works; but only those works which are necessary and which can be profitably undertaken should be carried out. The Post and Telegraph Department, for instance, has been starved for many years, although there has been a continual demand for additional telephone exchanges, and judging by the evidence tendered it would pay the Government to erect exchanges even though the cost be high, because the undertakings would be profitable. Although the Treasurer has provided money, I do not think it will be ample for the purpose. 12165 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - One and three quarter millions. 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - That is probably more than the Department will spend this year. Such expenditure would be wise, because greater telephonic facilities should be given to the people, particularly those in the "bush," to -whom the telephone is the greatest boon that can be given. We need money spent on immigration. I do not want the Government to bring people here to increase the population of our already over-crowded cities. I would like to see men and women leaving the cities and going on the land. In view of the cry of the unemployed, particularly from returned soldiers, I am surprised that special efforts are not being made by the Government to induce people to take up work in connexion with primary production. 12165 KTU 0 0 SMITH, William Mr Laird Smith - The Treasurer is most anxious to get his Estimates through, in order to go on with the work on the River Murray. 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The Minister need not stop the work on the Murray; there need be no delay whatever. If Ministers have left it to the last moment to get that item through, it is unfair to the Chamber, and it is evidence of bad administration. It is not right to tell honorable members that they are delaying the carrying on of such a work, because, from the day it was started, every member has given all the assistance possible. 12165 KTU 0 0 SMITH, William Mr Laird Smith - Do you say that the Treasurer would be justified in spending money now? 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - If money was needed the House would have voted it. 12165 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Last year we spent, on the Murray, about £40,000 or £50,000. This year it is proposed to spend £335o,000, which means about £1,400,000 between the Commonwealth and the States. Do you suggest that I should proceed, before I get the consent of the House, to spend at the rate of £335,000 a year? I have not got the money to begin with. 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I have always helped the Treasurer to get Supply. I was suggesting a big immigration policy, but care should be taken that men are brought here for the purpose only of settling on the soil. It would be useless to do anything that would attract people to the cities, because there are already too many in the crowded centres, having regard to the productive capacity of the country. I regret that the Government have not done more in connexion with the million farms proposition initiated in Sydney some time ago. Had they got more closely into touch with the promoters of that scheme, they might have started a vigorous immigration policy in an endeavour to settle Australia's empty spaces. 12165 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - How could they develop and economize at the same time? 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - -We should have more economic administration, and then we would have more money to spend on public works. If we simply spend money without the slightest care being exercised, it will do no good to anybody. The honorable, member for Melbourne Ports does not wish us to breed a class of men "who will not give a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. 12165 K4F 0 0 CONSIDINE, Michael Mr Considine - We do not propose that. 12165 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The honorable member for Barrier has a policy, but the time is not yet ripe for it to be put into operation. In the meantime, let us do the best we can with the money at our disposal. I think the member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Mathews) recognises that, owing to the wonderful resources of this country, we have been enabled to start secondary industries, and these can only be successfully carried on by the creation of big markets. The more people we settle in the Mallee country, on the River Murray, and in the out-back parts of Australia, where machinery and other articles necessary for production will be required, the better it will be for the whole of the people. I give way to nobody in my belief in the resources of Australia. The Treasurer knows that I was one of the first and most enthusiastic supporters of the River Murray Settlement scheme, and I realize the enormous advantage that Australia will derive from it by reason of the increased production that will follow. 12166 KTU 0 0 SMITH, William Mr Laird Smith - Was not the present Treasurer responsible for it? 12166 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I do not know that he was responsible for it, but he had a lot to do with it. We have enormous areas awaiting development in Western Australia, and I want the Government to advance some definite policy other than voting money for the purpose of getting into touch with the Imperial authorities in regard to their project to assist reservists and others to settle in the Dominions. I understand the Imperial Government are quite prepared to give financial assistance to men desirous of coming to Australia. In the southwestern and western portions of Western Australia there is an enormous belt of wheat-growing land, and about 500,000 farmers could easily be settled on it. In the north-west, in the Kimberley District, there is also wonderful country, but assistance in development is required, and the settlers must be assured that no matter where they go facilities will be afforded them to get their products to the markets of the world. There is grave danger in having the northern and north-western parts of Australia unpopulated and undeveloped. It is quite possible that many British people could be induced to help in the settlement of those vast areas. I am. very sanguine that petroleum oil will be discovered in the northern part of Australia, because it is in a line with the oil-producing countries of Sumatra and Borneo. In the statement made by Professor David a short time ago, the opinion was expressed that there was a possibility of oil being found. There is not the slightest doubt about the remarkable mineral possibilities of that northern country, and if there were a good mineral find, or a discovery of oil, it would be a start in the direction of development, and would do much to give a great fillip to settlement. 12166 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Spend .money in the north and economize in Melbourne Ports. 12166 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - If the Government carry out a big immigration scheme i it will be a big help to Labour. There is no man who has fought harder than the honorable member for Melbourne Ports to build up secondary industries, and he knows perfectly well that what is needed for the successful development of those industries is the nearest possible market for the producer. It is only by increased production that the desired result can be obtained. Nobody can examine' the Estimates without realizing that the Government have been careless; that the cost of administration is far above what it should be,, and that the Ministers have done little,, indeed, in the direction of giving generous assistance to the primary industries. I wish the Government would agree to take back the Estimates. If the vote upon the amendment is defeated, I assure honorable members that there will be no possibility of making any substantial alterations in the Estimates. 12166 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I would emphasize that, whether the amendment be agreed to or not, it will still be the duty of the Treasurer to try to retrench. 12166 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - If the responsibility for the Estimates and for the financial policy of the Government were entirely that of the Treasurer, I would accept the assurances of the right honorable gentleman. But there must be considered the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) and his .dominating methods, his control of the Cabinet, and the irresponsible- manner in which he has spent public moneys without consulting Parliament; in view of all of which honorable members will not be justified in accepting the statement of the Treasurer. If the latter Minister were free, if he had control, and could use his own judgment, I would accept his assurances. Honorable members are not even sure that the Treasurer will remain lone at his post. Practically all honorable members are under the strong impression 'that he will be appointed to the High Commissionership ; and then there will be another Treasurer. I trust that honorable members will realize the importance of the amendment of the Leader of the Country party, and will recognise how difficult it would be to secure economy in respect of any of the various items contained in the Estimates, if that amendment were rejected. They should give full heed to the demands of the people for economy in administration. If they do so, I am sure they will vote for the amendment. 12166 KNP Fawkner 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL .- The honorable member for .Swan (Mr. Prowse), in the concluding portion of his remarks last week, stated that every honorable member on the Government side who voted against the amendment of the Leader of the Country party would foe false to the pledges which he had made to his constituents. In one of the Melbourne daily papers very recently the attention of honorable members was drawn to the fact that their constituents would very narrowly scan the division lists when the amendment was put to the vote of this House. I shall vote against the amendment. I shall do so deliberately and after very careful consideration of the position. I deny that I am under any compulsion. I am not under the thumb of the Government. I exercise my own judgment in a matter of this kind; I have complete freedom of action. The position, as it presents itself to my mind, is this: So far as the Estimates are concerned, the Treasurer, who is a man of great experience, who has an intimate knowledge of the working of Public Departments, and who has, I believe, a sincere desire to finance the Commonwealth in its best interests, has come to this House and said', in effect, " I have done my very utmost in the way of cutting down, consistent with the interests of the community, and I can do no more." 12167 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member might add, " within the limits of the settled policy of Parliament." 12167 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - Quite so. STow, how has that statement been met? It has been met by the amendment of the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), which, on the face of it, appears to be a very harmless proposition, but which, in its intention, is an absolutely deadly thing. I do not think any one can believe for a moment that the honorable member ever intended his amendment as aught else than a vote of censure upon the Government. I have had the speech of the Leader of the Country party read to me. I have gone through it most carefully, and I have attempted to make an abstract of it. The honorable member emphasized the fact that Australia's debt is enormous; that it is, indeed, a staggering burden. He pointed out that there exists the greatest possible need for retrenchment in order that Australia's obligations may be met. Then the honorable member for Cowper proceeded to make most damaging charges, both against the Treasurer and the Government. He stated that in the compilation of his Budget the Treasurer was deliberately throwing dust in the eyes of the people; that the Treasurer was deliberately juggling with figures, and, in such a way as to deceive the people, to make it impossible for them to detect the true state of affairs. Then, having made specific charges in which was really involved the honour of the Treasurer, the Leader of the Country party wound up by bringing the whole of the Government into the same condemnation. He asserted that the Government were allowing the Commonwealth to drift into financial ruin, through ignorance and incompetence. And yet the honorable member said, " I do not intend my amendment to be regarded as a vote of censure." If one-tenth of what he said about the Government is true, they ought not to remain for another minute on the Treasury bench; and the honorable member for Cowper knows it. I carefully probed his speech to ascertain whether there was any practical suggestion for a solution qf our financial difficulties. But, so far as that question is concerned, one is told that it is no business of the critics of the Government to point out ways in which money could be saved. But is it not the business of those critics? If the amendment were to be taken as its mover would have it understood that he desires - if it were to be treated in a non-party spirit; if honorable members were to accept the advice that they should meet in a non-party spirit and discuss the situation - then, when that honorable member is told by the Treasurer that he has done his utmost, and that neither he nor the Government can do more in the direction of retrenchment, it would become his bounden duty, as a critic of the Government, to point to directions in which retrenchment may be effected. It is only on the understanding that his amendment is intended as a vote of want of confidence that he could say, " I am challenging the Government. I am going to turn the Government, out, and then I will show you a better way." The honorable gentleman, in dealing with these various difficulties, reminds one- of the old Scotch minister's method of dealing with a knotty problem which he encountered in the course of an address to his people. It was a problem that he could not tackle, and he said, "My friends, let us look this difficulty fair in the face, and pass on." That is a splendid way of dealing with a difficulty, and it seems to me that that is the way in which the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) has dealt with the difficulties that are facing this Government. He has looked the difficulties " fairly in the face;" he has drawn them in the ugliest possible outlines, and then he has " passed on." That is my reading of the situation as far as the honorable member for Cowper ia concerned. He deals in his speech with the subject cf the alleged overmanning of Government Departments. He says that our Departments are overmanned, that our officers are overpaid, and that large economies can be effected in that direction. How? Of course, by reducing the size of the staffs and by reducing their emoluments. Does the honorable gentleman suggest that economies should be effected in that way? He does not say so in so many words, but he says that there, is overmanning and overpayment, and he leaves us to draw the inference that economies should be effected in the way I have indicated. My attitude in regard to the amendment is that I refused to be coerced into voting for it on the assumption that to vote! against it is to vote against economy. I am as keenly anxious as any other honorable member in this Committee to effect every economy that can be* effected. We are all in favour of economy, as some honorable gentleman on the other side suggested, " so long as it does not affect us." In this connexion a friend of mine told me an appropriate story the other day. A suggestion was made in a, household that they should have a self-denial week, the object being to raise money towards a cause in which all members of the household were interested. One1 morning they had a family conclave, at which the matter was discussed. Each member of the family said what he would do without. The1 father started off, and the request for self-denial went round the family circle. One said he would do without tea, another without sugar, a third without milk, and so on. At last they came to the young hopeful of the family, a little school chap. The father said, " Well, Jack, what d6 you propose to do without?" Jack replied, " If you do not mind, dad, I will do without soap." That was his way of economizing. It seems to me that there are many people who are willing to do without soap, but they will not agree to deny themselves anything. That is where .the shoe pinches. I do not care "tuppence" for the professions of economy of a man whose economy involves no self-denial. The sooner we as a people recognise that fact the better. The sooner we recognise that real economy will involve self-sacrifice on the part of every one, the better. I do not care a snap of the fingers for what any man says on the subject of economy if he is not willing to face that position. I hope that when we come to deal with the Estimates the Minister in each of the Departments will give us the fullest possible information, and that wa will be able to make certain economies. 1 would like to see the sincerity of honorable members in this House tested in the following way. We are told by the honorable member for Cowper that values are being deflated on all hands', and that prices are coming down. If the country is really to believe that we are sincere in our protestations of economy, the first thing I would suggest is that we begin with ourselves. Here is something that I can understand. A great deal of the argument that we have listened to in this chamber, and that we have read outside in the columns of the newspapers, I profess my utter inability to follow. Possibly that is due to my density, or possibly to my inexperience; but, honestly, I do not understand it. Here is one specific piece of expenditure that I can understand. It was deliberately incurred by this House, and the House that incurred it can delete it. That is the very first thing that every man who talks economy in this House should do, because we know that our constituents are suffering a diminution in their incomes, and that they must suffer a still further diminution. There are certain directions in which any fool can lead. The difficulty of leadership arises when you want to lead in a direction that your followers do not want to go. I could easily lead in the direction of an increase in salary. I would like to know who can lead in the direction of a reduction. The honorable member1 for Cowper, in his long and carefully prepared speech, does not suggest that line of economy. 12168 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Will you be in Parliament when we move to Canberra? 12169 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I hope I shall. 12169 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Every member of the House can lead in the direction that you are suggesting. The item is in the Estimates for any member to deal with. 12169 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I will see what members are prepared to do when we come to that particular item. The honorable member for Cowper has drawn a most appalling picture of the condition of Australia. He has told us that by reason of the cowardice and incompetence of the Government we are being led slowly but surely to financial ruin. We have a Committee the members of which have reported to this House that to make arrangements for us to do our talking at Canberra instead of here, will' involve an expenditure of close on £3,000,000 within the next three years. 12169 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - You will not be able to follow your profession there. 12169 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - That interjection introduces the personal element again. " When you have no case, abuse the other side." This proposed expenditure on Canberra is another definite item in regard to which the House has it within its power to lighten the burden of the people of Australia. An expenditure has been suggested this year of nearly £500,000, but the Treasurer has resisted that demand, and has put down £200,000. All honour to him. I have no doubt that he has put down that amount in spite of the pressure that has been brought to bear upon him by some of those members who are loudest in their demands for economy. If I had my way not one single penny would be spent on Canberra at present that could be avoided, and we should only spend what is absolutely necessary to prevent the deterioration of work' already done. I would pursue that policy until we are in a better financial position. Those are two points - honorable members' emoluments and the proposed expenditure on Canberra. One of the remarks of the honorable member for Cowper is that the Defence proposals of the Treasurer are an extravagance. He spoke of the immense amount that it is proposed to spend on the Permanent Forces and in doing that he was following the Acting Leader of the Labour party, the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton), who moved an amendment to secure the reduction of the Defence Estimates by nearly £3,000,000. I think that economy can be applied to our Defence expenditure. I would not vote a penny more than could be helped, for Defence, and I would make the Minister in charge of the Estimates justify every penny of the appropriation for which he asks; but I am astonished that the honorable member for Hunter should have moved an amendment which he must have known would inevitably be defeated. 12169 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I did not know that it would be defeated. Its defeat rested with the Committee. Honorable members who, like the honorable member, believe that the Defence expenditure should be reduced should have supported me. 12169 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I am about to show how far I can go with the honorable member. Were it in my power, I would at once destroy every armament and all munitions of war in the world. I shall point out how that could be done. There are two ways of stopping war. One is by stopping the supplies that are the sinews of war. Yet, although to-day the world is groaning under its burden of warlike expenditure, and its heart is almost broken by the disastrous experiences of the past six or seven years, in Great Britain £200,000,000 is being voted this year for warlike preparations; in France, a similar amount; in the United States of America, £300,000,000; in Japan, £150,000,000; and here in Australia, £7,000,000. Without the co-operative- association of labour, money is absolutely useless. We are constantly hearing from Opposition members that wars are caused by capitalists, by a knot of financiers, who, working in co-operation in different countries, foment international troubles in order that war may be brought about, so that, by their hellish alchemy, ' they may extract from the blood and tears of the people the gold with which they enrich themselves. Here are the financiers and capitalists, according to Labour members, providing hundreds of millions of pounds for the purposes of war. Our honorable friends opposite suggest that this money is stolen from the pockets of the working classes, who alone supply the funds for prosecuting wars. But without the co-operative association of Labour, all this money is absolutely useless. We hear constantly of the solidarity of Labour; that Labour's cause is one throughout the world; that there is a unity of object and of spirit in its ranks that make it all-powerful. If that be so, I would point out a way in which Labour could prevent war. Let it declare that every penny voted for warlike purposes shall be regarded as " black " and unholy, and let it refuse to touch it. If Labour is solid, if its solidarity is anything more than the dream of a devout imagination, let it in the different countries influence those of its people who are engaged on armaments and munition making, so that they shall throw down their tools and refuse to do another stroke of work on things which have for their ultimate use the destruction of human life. Such a step would render impossible the building of another warship, the casting of another gun, the manufacture of another rifle, the making of another cartridge. Therefore, I say that Labour has it in its power to stop war absolutely. 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - And does not the honorable member, therefore, think that the public men in the different Parliaments of the world should see that money is not voted for warfare? After all, the workers have to fill their stomachs. 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - We hear so constantly of the vested- interests of capital that we have come to associate the principle of vested interest with Capital; but, if Labour refuses to take up the position that I have spoken of, there must be such a tiling as the vested interest of Labour - an interest so immense that it is not prepared to sacrifice it. We know the tremendous power of Labour to render the expenditure of capital futile. The reefs at Broken Hill are lying untouched to-day because Labour, for its own purposes, refuses to co-operate with Capital in extracting the mineral wealth that they contain, and .work has been brought to a standstill. Why should not Labour do the same in regard to the manufacture of armaments and munitions of war? 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Are you doing your duty as a representative man in throwing the whole onus on the working classes, when you vote money for warlike purposes ? 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I am not throwing the onus on the working classes, and it is my duty, as a public man, to try to indue© the Parliaments of the world not to vote money for war expenditure. 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Then you should have voted with me. 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - No. That brings me to the practical point. I say that unless the other nations will agree to take the step of disarming, it is useless for us to take it. 12170 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - You are not prepared to set an example? 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - It is not a question of example. I am free to admit that I believe that, possibly, if we, as a nation, took that stand, we might be justified in the result, but I confess that I have not as yet the moral courage to ado.pt that course. Has my honorable friend ? 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I do not hesitate to say that I have. 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - Do I understand the honorable member to say that he would be prepared to scrap all our armaments, and not to vote a penny for war expenditure ? 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - After the bloodshed of the past few years, it is a disgrace that the public men of the different countries of the world are not doing something to' bring about universal peace. 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I look for very little result from the Disarmament Conference at Washington. Even if we disarm to a certain extent, if we limit our armaments, that will not necessarily bring us nearer to universal peace. It will ease the financial burden under which every country is groaning, but it will not change the spirit of those countries, which will be as bellicose as before. Nothing but complete disarmament would do that. I do not throw the burden on Labour, but I make an earnest appeal to Labour. If we cannot influence the capitalists, if we cannot influence the Parliaments of the world to refrain from voting money for war expenditure, I appeal to Labour to refuse to allow the money that is voted to be spent. 12170 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I hope you will support Labour when it takes action on those lines. 12170 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - If there were anything like a universal stand in that way, I would willingly contribute to the strike fund. What are the' prospects of success at the Washington Conference? China, the other day, declared deliberately that, no matter what Japan might say, she would not believe her, and the members of the Japanese delegation arrived in Washington arrayed in military uniforms and were escorted by mounted troops. Militarism displayed everywhere! I wonder what tune the bands played? Certainly not " Rule, Britannia." I should have liked to see a conference of Labour sitting at the same time as the Washington Conference, to discuss the same questions, and resolving to exercise its power to prevent war. If it did that, it ' would have the approval of every right-thinking man. The inconsistency of my friends opposite lies in their saying that they wish for complete disarmament in Australia, no matter what any one else may do. 12171 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - We have not said that; but we wish to reduce the Defence expenditure of the country by £2,800,000. 12171 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - If the members of the Labour party are not in favour of the complete scrapping of our armaments, they are in the same category as, I think, the delegates to the Washington Conference, in looking only for an easing of the financial burden. I wish to go further than that if possible, and to kill war right out. 12171 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - So do I. 12171 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I would like to say to the capitalists, "If you will foment wars, you may fight among yourselves, and hit one another with your money bags, but we will not help you." The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) spoke of the magnificent resources of Australia. They are magnificent. What is it that prevents their development? The want of money. Yet we are voting millions for warlike purposes. ' If we stopped making armaments and munitions, we should have millions more to spend in other directions. 12171 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - In productive paths. 12171 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - Yes, and although that would not change the hearts of men, it would create conditions in which the spirit of brotherhood would have a chance to grow. Coming back to my original contention, I have to consider my attitude to the amendment now before the Committee. I feel that I should not be helping the cause of economy by voting for it. What would happen if I voted for it, and it were carried, and the Government went out of office? How would the country be benefited by that? 12171 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Our side would come into office. 12171 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - If I were sure that my honorable friend entering the Treasury would be able to do better work than the present Treasurer, I might be disposed to vote for the amendment at once. But I am not satisfied that the honorable member would be able to do so, and I say that without any wish to belittle him. I do not see that a change of Government would be for the benefit of the country. I feel that what we want, and certainly what I should like to see, in Australia, is a Government which would formulate an unpopular programme - a Government that would sit down and consider what was in the best interests of Australia, rather than what would be most likely to secure votes in an election campaign. The curse of this country and what has led us into the financial impasse in which we find ourselves to-day is the fact that we have had Governments and parties going to the country, and trying to outbid each other for popular support. The National party is not free from blame in this regard. We made a big bid for popularity and for votes, and we got them. The party on the other side made a bigger bid for popularity. They made promises the fulfilment of which would involve the Commonwealth, according to the estimates of the right honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), in an additional expenditure of something like £16,000,000. The people of the Commonwealth, to their credit be it said, did not accept the offers of the party opposite. There, I say, is the curse of Australia. We want a strong Government that will sit down and say what is, having regard to existing conditions, not the best thing for their party and the worst thing for the opposing party, but the best in the interests of Australia. Let them rely on the inherent strength and truth of their programme for support, and tell the people that if they do not care to accept their policy they will go down with it. 12171 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - The Country party is such a party. 12171 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I for one should be prepared to take my stand on such a programme, and trust to the common sense and to the level headedness and sense of fair play of my constituents, and if I were not justified by the event, so much the worse for me. I heard an interjection from the rear that the Country party is such a party as I have described. I am sorry to say that it is not. Whilst I have the greatest possible respect and esteem for every member, individually, of that party, for the party itself I have no such esteem. I say that the Country party has not justified its existence since it came into this House- I was astounded to hear from the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) the remark that too often party interests are allowed to operate to the detriment of the larger interests of the community. Fancy that coming from a member of a party every member of which must be a member of the Farmers Union, one plank of whose constitution is that where there is a conflict of interests between the primary producing interest and any other, the primary producing interest must prevail. 12172 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - I never heard of that plank. 12172 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - I went very carefully through the constitution of the Farmers Union. I have often wondered how it is that I find the' honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) in the ranks of the Country party. I understand it now. The honorable member does not know the constitution of the party. I have not the slightest doubt that when my honorable friend, with that courage and integrity for which he is so noted, does discover where he is, and finds his position untenable, he will get out of it in the speediest way possible. 12172 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - Does the honorable member not think that the primary industries should come first? 12172 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - No. 12172 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - Second? 12172 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr MAXWELL - No. I do not place them in order of precedence. I say that our duty as Nationalists is to adjust interests where they seem to conflict. It is our duty, as between apparently conflicting interests, to do the fair thing. I have said that the curse of the Commonwealth, so far, has been the competition of two political parties, each trying to outbid the other, and the confusion has been rendered worse confounded in this House by the introduction of a third party, which aspires to hold the balance of power. I believe that the people generally recognise that, and I have no doubt that in due time my honorable friends of the Country party will discover what the real opinion of the country is with regard to their party and its functions. I do not wish to further delay the Committee. I feel that in voting against the amendment I shall be doing no violence to the pledge given to my constituents when I said that I would support, in its main lines, the policy of the Nationalist party and the Nationalist Government so long as their actions commended themselves to my judgment. Although a member of the Nationalist party, I am not bound hand and foot to the Government, who happen to be the executive of the party at the present time. If I thought that they were as incompetent, as cowardly, and as unprincipled as the mover of the amendment would have us believe, I would vote for the amendment at once. But because I believe that, whatever their shortcomings may be, they have honestly endeavoured to do their best for the Commonwealth in regard to the adjustment of the finances, I intend to vote against the amendment. 12172 JPC Kooyong 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST . - I am sure that we are all gratified to see my esteemed friend the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Maxwell) in his place, and to have heard him deliver the vigorous speech he has just made. I, like the honorable member, am a supporter of the Government; but, when I say that, I say also that I owe them no slavish allegiance, and I claim absolute and complete independence, so far as criticism and action are concerned. My honorable friends opposite, and honorable members on my right belonging to the Country party, may be quite sure that a number of us who sit behind the Government are not going to be fascinated by alluring and perhaps popular amendments which may seem prospectively in their eyes to be remarkably hopeful. I have no personal or selfish motives to serve, and I can, I think, speak with complete impartiality in the matter. In my judgment, we should not be justified in dislodging the Government just now. At the same time, I believe that we are called upon to aid the Government so far as we can in giving effect to the volume of opinion throughout Australia which demands a guarantee that public administration will be carried on with the most rigid economy, having regard to the financial stress and strain now obtaining, and the crushing taxation under which the community is at present labouring. I admit that the right honorable the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) is entitled to a considerable amount of sympathy and also to generous criticism. I do not, however, propose to refrain from candid criticism where I consider it my duty to criticise. When I say that the Treasurer is entitled to generous consideration, I do uot discount the grave difficulties he has had to overcome, and the complicated financial conditions under which he has introduced his Budget. I believe there has been, on his part, a genuine anxiety to give the fullest expression to the desire of the community for economy. I believe he has made a genuine effort in that regard, and I go further, and say that the Budget he has presented is an honest Budget. At the same time, if my right honorable friend is obsessed, as he evidently is, with the idea that it is a perfect Budget, he is completely mistaken. I think that the character of the criticism in this House, combined with that which has taken place outside, should at least indicate to the Treasurer that all are not agreed as to the perfection of the Budget. While I realize that he has supplied what is metaphorically referred to as the " pruning knife " with some delicate touches, I feel that what is really required at the present time, to use the less picturesque expression of the right honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), is the "meataxe." We have witnessed the spectacle that the Treasurer, having delivered his Budget, has seen fit to attempt to reply to the criticism, in many respects legitimately levelled against it, on no less than three occasions in this chamber, and on a number of occasions outside. That is an extraordinary and significant circumstance, which cannot be overlooked. 12173 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - If the honorable gentleman will consider my replies, he will find that they have been with a desire to furnish explanations and facts. 12173 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Perhaps my discernment is at fault; but I think that that has not been completely obvious. I' do take exception to, and resent, the intemperate speech made by the right honorable gentleman on Friday last. I think that it was wanton and unwarranted. He made a most improper and vindictive attack upon various economy organizations established throughout the length and breadth of Victoria. 12173 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The honorable gentleman should know better than that. I carefully differentiated between country and city organizations. I shall continue to attack the coterie in the city. 12173 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - If the right honorable gentleman draws such a distinction I will say that he made a venomous attack upon city organizations, and forgot that throughout the length and breadth of Australia similar economy organizations have been most legitimately formed for the purpose of giving expression to the desire of the community for economy in view of the present financial stress. 12173 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I read on Friday last a letter of cordial commendation from one of them. 12173 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - The right honorable gentleman derived a very great amount of satisfaction from that letter; but the reason for his satisfaction was not very obvious. I complain of the attack which he levied against these organizations. He would have us believe their criticisms were of a personal and abusive character, but this I deny. I have read the criticisms of the various organizations to which he referred, and, speaking broadly and generally, I recognise that practically all belong to the same political party as the Treasurer. In one instance only can I recall that any personal attack was made on the right honorable gentleman. He replied in kind, and I can assure honorable members that honours were easy. So far as the right honorable gentleman's own attack on Friday last is concerned, it was, in my opinion, unjust and unwarranted. There was no such personal attack on him, but there has been an unsparing criticism of his Budget. We have aright to respect the views of associations formed for the purpose of investigation of public affaire so long as we believe that they are honestly expressed. These organizations realize that the financial responsibilities of the Commonwealth at the present time are grave and serious, and that there is not only an individual but a national responsibility. They realize that we are labouring under a crushing load of taxation.. Something like £21,000,000 Of direct taxation and £32,000,000 of indirect taxation per annum, equal to about £13 per bead of the population, is the burden that we have to bear. Our enormous debt of £400,000,000 practically represents the price that we paid for our liberty as the result of the great war, and we were prepared to readily incur it in order to assist the Allies to victory. That expenditure was absolutely justified. There is also the States debt totalling an almost equal amount, so that the people of Australia are overwhelmed with a debt that is equal to something like £160 per head of the population, and taxation amounting to £13 per head per annum. Realizing 'that the financial interests of Australia are gravely involved, we should welcome, in these critical circumstances, the criticism of the people outside who interest themselves in the public affairs of the country, so that Parliament may be a "proper reflex of public opinion, and so that there shall be afforded the people a guarantee of effective economy on our part. I say frankly to my honorable friends of the Country party that the principle of their amendment is sound. The Government are not justified in proposing to spend during the current financial year some £2,800,000 more than we shall receive by way of revenue; but when my honorable friends say that despite the economies and retrenchment which have already been undertaken by the Treasurer, we can proceed now, in a purely mechanical fashion, to reduce the estimated expenditure by £2,800,000, I feel that they are calling for what, under present conditions, is hardly practicable. While the amendment moved by the Leader of the Country party is in the right direction, it cannot be justified from a practical stand-point. It is a deplorable misfortune that criticism of the Budget is regarded from a party stand-point, but our constitutional practice justifies the position taken up by the Government in regard to the amendment. They dare not take up any other attitude.. Having regard to the financial position, th© Budget should, in my opinion, be referred to the Economies Commission. That Commission was specially formed to study the public administration generally of Australia, and has qualified itself to guide this Parliament on a question such as this. A valuable addition to its strength might be made by the appointment of a gentleman of the high reputation of Mr. Yarwood, or of Mr. Allard, of Sydney, to its membership. Both these gentlemen have given the closest attention to public finance, and by long business training and experience are highly qualified to advise. If the Commission were reinforced by the appointment of one of them to it, this Committee, in dealing with the Budget, would have the benefit of very valuable assistance. In this way, also, the confidence of the people would be secured. The people would realize that an impartial body of highly skilled business men had made a close investigation of our finances, and the report of that body would be a guarantee to them that the very best that could be done in the circumstances would be done. 12174 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - But has not the Economies Commission already reported 1 12174 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - It has reported generally, and made certain recommendations, but not with respect to the Budget. And the point with which we are now dealing is that the Budget before us is capable of still further reduction. I am anxious that, in considering it, we should have the benefit of the help and guidance of a Commission consisting of hardheaded, rigid business men, such as I have indicated. Let me quote a few lines, showing what is being done in the "United States of America and also in the Mother Country with regard to the Budget. The authorities of the United States of America, feeling the financial strain of which we are now complaining, decided to call in the services of men who are to specialize upon the Budget - President Harding has appointed two capable men, one to be called " Director of the Budget," the other to re-organize the Government Departments. " Mr. Dawes, of Chicago," says the American Review, " is the Director of the Budget under the new law, which centres in the President the business of revising estimates and presenting to Congress a well-balanced scheme of proposed expenditures and a forecast of public revenue. Back of the forcible expressions and breezy manner of Mr. Charles G. Dawes is a long experience of able public, service and of success in the 'business world. " Mr. Walter Brown, of Ohio, one of the foremost of the progressive leaders in the political period of 1912-16, has accepted the difficult task of representing the President, and taking the most active part in the work of the Commission that is planning nothing less than the thorough, up-to-date re-organization of the Departments and bureaus of the Government, to got rid of overlapping and to make the mechanism efficient for its purposes." Then we have the further statement - The Budget plan aims simply to organize the Government's business so as to make every Government dollar produce full value, just as a business concern, seeking dividends, would do; to estimate in advance of each year the prospective revenue and whence it shall come; to keep taxation closely adjusted to needs, so that surpluses and deficits may be avoided; to prevent officers or Departments' getting more money than is needed for effectively doing the precise things Congress meant them to do; and to insure that if it isn't all needed, it shall not all be spent. 12175 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - In the face of these facts, the honorable member ought to vote for the amendment. 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Instead of the cut-and-dried mechanical process of dealing with the Budget without knowledge, which the Country party would have us adopt, we should obtain recommendations, made after the closest investigation, by skilled business men well able to advise us. In the Mother Country, five business men have been appointed to advise the Treasurer. It is reported that - The composition of the Business Committee which is to advise the Treasury respecting national finance is as follows: - Sir Eric Geddes (chairman), Lord Inchcape, Lord Faringdon, Sir Joseph Maclay, Sir Guy Granet. The Committee will sit at the Treasury and report to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The terms of reference are: - To make recommendations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for effecting forthwith all possible reductions in the national expenditure on Supply services, having regard to the present and prospective position of the revenue. 12175 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Have either of those Committees yet made recommendations? 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Not yet. 12175 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - When they do make recommendations, the respective Budgets will be framed accordingly ? 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Quite so. Parliament, in the case of the United Kingdom, and Congress, in the case of the United States of America, will act with knowledge, on the skilled advice of these gentlemen. 12175 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - But have we not had such advice from the Economies Commission ? 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I have already said that we have an Economies Commission, who have given close attention to public administration and who have reported generally thereon, and that we should take advantage of it. The Country party say that the Estimates should be reduced to the extent of £2,800,000. I think it is impossible for us to mechanically cut them down to that extent, as proposed, but at the same time I am fully convinced that very substantial reductions can be made. I want Parliament to act upon skilled advice and knowledge. 12175 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - We have, had that advice. 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - We have not. 12175 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - The Commission has reported. 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I am urging that we should have a direct report from it with regard to this Budget. Mr.Hill. - The honorable member is suggesting that the Parliament is incompetent. 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Not at all, when it has the facts before it. 12175 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Is it suggested that the recommendations of this Commission, or any Commission that might be appointed, should be accepted by the House, or merely that they should be put before the House for discussion? 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Placed before the House for discussion. 12175 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Then all I can say is that I wish we could get such a Commission. 12175 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - We have had the report of such a Commission. 12175 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - Then are you prepared to accept it ? If you are, I am. 12175 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I hope that my honorable friends will realize exactly the point I am putting. I ask that we shall follow the lead given us by great nations, such as the United States of America and the Mother Country. Wo are fortunate in having at hand men who can give the closest attention to the subject of our public affairs and public administration, and who are capable of advising 'us. The Commission would report to the House. The Government have largely attempted to give effect to the recommendations of the Economies Commission. 12176 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - -What trie Economies Commission has done is to tell us distinctly that it cannot undertake this work. Its recommendations provided for a system of managing the Public Service, which we have embodied in a Bill that is now before the Senate. 12176 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Quite so, but the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) has said that the Commission, has already reported. My reply is that it has not reported on the Budget. It should be asked to report on the Budget, and to state whether or not it represents the greatest measure of economy that could properly be effected. This House has not the knowledge to economize with the degree of guarantee the public are entitled to that the economies undertaken "are justified and are properly effected. 12176 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - The Government would have spent the money before the report was due. 12176 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I do not think so. I do not suppose that all honorable members accept the same view that I do in this regard; but I wish to give the Treasurer the fullest credit for what he has done. As he has told us, he has kept Iris hand and eye closely on the expenditure, and has reduced it by something like £11,500,000. Of course, that saving comes in. a natural way so far as a considerable proportion is concerned, but I must also say that the Treasurer has, in. many respects, paid out of revenue - which I commend most heartily - considerable sums of money which he could legitimately have paid out of loans. 12176 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - There is £2,000,000 of such charges in this Budget which ought, strictly speaking,' to go to loan,. 12176 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I admit that. The Treasurer has told us that the actual expenditure out of revenue last year was £64,624,000, and that he contemplates spending about £4,250,000 less this year than the actual expenditure of last year. So far as I have been able to investigate, a very considerable proportion of that £4,250,000 represents non-recurring items. In the case of war pensions there is a reduction of some £700,000, in repatriation work a reduction of something like £1,500,000, and in various other war services a reduction of some £700,000 - > at least, upwards of £3,000,000 of a nonrecurring character. I note, moreover, a saving of some £900,000 on public works. The fact remains, however, that the Treasurer has reduced the estimated expenditure for the coming year considerably below the actual expenditure of last year. There is one very significant matter to which the Treasurer has referred. The contemplated revenue for this year is something like £61,500,000, and the Treasurer very properly points out that he contemplates spending £20,000 less than that amount. He said in his Budget statement - I have managed to bring the estimate of expenditure out of revenue to a figure slightly below the actual expenditure of last year. This has been effected despite having to find additional amounts as under. These sums amount to upwards of £4,000,000. I ask honorable members to see whether there is not room here: for considerable reduction. Amongst the additional 'amounts which the Treasurer has to find is nearly £800,000 for military defence, £172,000 for naval new works, and £360,000 for air services. The Treasurer then refers to additional expenditure on invalid and old-age pensions, the basic wage, post-office maintenance, and so forth. The point I am making is that the right honorable gentleman takes credit for having reduced the estimated expenditure for the coming year by £20,000 below the actual expenditure of last year, notwithstanding the fact that he has to find upwards of £4,000,000 for additional expenditure on the services I have mentioned. 12176 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Will the honorable m "an bar let me say that, although that is so, the Estimates voted last year for defence were not spent, and we are voting no more this year for defence than last year, but £25,000 less. 12176 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - What was voted last year is beside the question aud does not interest me. The fact remains that we propose spending this year £800,000 on military defence alone, more than .was actually spent last year, and £172,000 more on naval new works. 12176 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - We must take the circumstances into account. 12176 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - The point is that at a time when we are struggling to reduce our expenditure, when our financial conditions are such that industry is stifled by reason of the almost overwhelming taxation - at a time when we might expect some respite - we are actually proposing to spend £800,000 more on military defence than last year. 12177 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr Marks - Would you back your opinion on this question against the naval and military experts who advise the Government ? 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - No; I am dealing with what I find in the Budget speech of the Treasurer. That right honorable gentleman and the Minister for Defence will have to satisfy the House in regard to this expenditure before we are justified in assenting to it. I have said from the beginning that this House is incompetent to deal with these matters. The Government must have advice and information placed at their disposal to enable them to judge and take the responsibility. 12177 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We must take these Defence items and see which of them are essential and which are not. 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - The assurances of the Treasurer and of the Prime Minister that there shall be further investigation, and further reduction, is the justification I have for the attitude I am taking. 12177 L0I 0 0 RYRIE, Granville Sir Granville Ryrie - You say we are spending this money - if you had said so last year, you would have been wrong. 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - There always is the carry-over; but the point is that the Treasurer was able to save something like £4,000,000 on the Estimates of last year, and I am hopeful that he is going to save £2,000,000, or perhaps at least £1,500,000, this year. I think the Treasurer should endeavour to guarantee that there will be at least a saving of £1,500,000 in the coming year. He can accomplish that saving by keeping a careful hand on the Treasury. 12177 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I believe I can. 12177 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We must consider the circumstances. I have here a most appalling set of figures, which sets out that the Defence expenditure of the United States of America in 1920 was £696,000,000, while in 1914 it was £48,000,000. 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - The Prime Minister is not comparing like with like. Our insignificant affairs, I think, can hardly be compared in magnitude with the responsibilities cast on the United States of America and the Mother Country. 12177 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - But the country which issues an invitation to disarmament is spending on arms I do not know how much more, but about fifteen times as much as in 1914. 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I am not dealing with the question of disarmament at present, but anything we can do for the consummation of such a glorious objective we are anxious to do. What I feel is that this country is crying out at the present time for further retrenchment - for our financial affairs to be put on a more stable and economic basis; we have to concentrate all our efforts in that direction. 12177 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - How will you vote? 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I have already stated how I shall vote. 12177 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - Then be consistent ! 12177 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - The Treasurer anticipates receiving revenue this year to the amount of £61,750,000, and I sincerely hope that his anticipation may be realized. Beyond a few passing remarks, I shall not deal further with the prospects of the income tax or the Customs revenue, which have already been fully covered by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt). No doubt, in regard to the income tax, the Treasurer is acting on the best advice. I am mixed up with the business community every hour of the day, and so far as I have had an opportunity of judging, I do not for one moment think that the anticipation of anything like £15,000,000 from the income tax is justified for the coming year, nor do I think, having regard to falling prices, that the Customs Estimates will be sustained. I sincerely and earnestly hope that both Estimates may be realized, but I must say that the income tax in itself is of the most crushing character, and the people have a right to expect some relief in this regard. In 1918-19 we imposed a super-tax of something like 30 per cent., which produced £2,700,000; and, not satisfied with that, we imposed a further super-tax of 5 per cent., which produced something like £700,000. I say that the public are greatly disappointed that the Treasurer is not able to recommend at least some remission of this taxation, which is such that at the present time it is causing unemployment - is preventing and stifling the proper expansion of industry. The production which the Prime Ministe and the Treasurer refer to as our only salvation cannot be achieved unless some taxation relief is afforded and encouragement given for industrial development and expansion. I do not agree with the Treasurer's contention that he is justified in using the surplus of £6,118,000 as he is doing. He has quoted many precedents for the utilization of an accumulated surplus for the requirements of the current year, but the principle is bad. As a rule, these surpluses have been paid into some particular trust account. These are not normal times - they are abnormal; and when the Treasurer had an accumulated surplus of £6,000,000 he should have applied it in reduction of our loan requirements, and asked the public for only £4,000,000 instead of £10,000,000. If the Treasurer had only realized the grave injury done to Australian industry by the withdrawal of £10,000,000 from ordinary circulation, he would have stretched a point to ask the public for only £4,000,000, using the accumulated surplus of £6,000,000 to make up the £10,000,000 which he required. I understand that we are to have from the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) a statement regarding shipping and shipbuilding. I do not hesitate to say that I have totally differed from the policy of the Government in regard to both the ownership of a shipping line and shipbuilding. I have previously voiced my protest in" the House, but, whilst I was prepared to concede a great deal under war conditions, I hope the Government will now see their way clear to get rid of the Commonwealth steamers as quickly as possible, and also discontinue shipbuilding, and allow private enterprise to take the place of the present ineffective Government effort. 12178 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - We would be glad if private enterprise would. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I understand that the Commonwealth's gross expenditure on shipping, including its present obligations, amounts to about £6,000,000. There is on the present Estimates an item of £3,000,000, nearly the whole of which Ss required to meet obligations which have already been entered into. 12178 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - All of it. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I was greatly surprised to hear the Treasurer say that no ships had been ordered since the armistice. If that be so, there may be some justification for the ordering of the ships now being constructed, although I still contend that the House should have been consulted. 12178 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The five ships now being constructed were ordered immediately after the armistice. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I was under the impression that that was so, and I say that that expenditure is totally unjustified. I previously complained bitterly that contracts had been undertaken without Parliament being consulted. If that action was taken after the armistice it was the more unwarranted. I read the other day that about seven or eight cargo ships which had ben purchased in February, 1920, for £1,460,000 were sold in August last for £266,000. Ships are available at the present time for about £7 10s. per ton, for which we have paid, or are paying £28 or £30 per ton. 12178 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - Some of the new passenger ships are costing £58 per ton. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I am referring to cargo ships, which are purchasable at £7 10s. per ton. 12178 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr Marks - That is not so. 12178 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - What authority has the honorable member for that statement? 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I think the quotation I read was from the London Times. 12178 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - When the shipping items are reached I shall make to the Committee a clear and comprehensive statement setting out all the facts. The Committee will have the fullest opportunity of expressing its opinion and making a decision. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - But we are committed to the ships which have been ordered. 12178 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We are not committed to any cargo ships to be built abroad. 12178 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - We are committed to those ships in respect of which we have to meet this year an obligation of £3,000,000. According to the Budget the capital value of the ships owned by the Commonwealth at the present time is £7,130,000. Whose valuation is that? Does it represent the cost of the ships or their present value? 12178 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - We cannot deal with this matter piece-meal. I will make a complete statement on the subject. 12179 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - It is only fair to remember that the Treasurer claimed that too much is being written off for depreciation. 12179 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - That may be. The valuation I am quoting is contained in the Treasurer's Budget statement. 12179 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Is the honorable member in favour of buying ships abroad because they are cheaper than those built in Australia? 12179 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - I am not in favour of the Government either owning or building commercial ships. I commend the Treasurer for having taken steps to deal with the taxation of bonus shares in companies. Hitherto a most anomalous state of affairs has prevailed. When capital assets have increased in value and have been turned into shares, those shares have been regarded by the Commissioner as income and not capital. I appreciate what the Treasurer is doing in that regard, and also his proposal to introduce the necessary legislation to place the interpretation of the law beyond all doubt. I commend him also for the suggested constitution of a Beard of Appeal. Another important matter in respect of which he is taking action is the elimination of double taxation within the Empire. This matter should certainly have been dealt with long ago, but "better late than never." A Conference was called recently to deal with this subject, and so far as I remember, the result was a decision that the higher taxation, whether that of the Mother Country or that of the Dominions, should be taken, and the nation levying the higher tax would agree to accept half, that is to say, if the Imperial taxation was 8s. in the £1 and the Commonwealth taxation was "5s. in the £1, the Mother Country would accept 4s. in the £1, and the Commonwealth would surrender ls. That is a valuable arrangement which the Imperial Government have agreed to express in legislation. The Mother Country is now awaiting the co-operation of Australia, and it will be necessary for this Parliament to pass the necessary legislation to give effect to the arrangement. At the present time we are deliberately penalizing British investments in Australia to a gravely serious extent. 12179 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - And Great Britain has been penalizing Australian investments also. 12179 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Only to a limited extent. W.e frame our Tariff for the purpose of encouraging the establishment of British industries in our midst. Capitalists come here relying on the policy of the country, and then find that all their profits on these investments are subject to double taxation. That is ' an iniquitous thing. 12179 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - It is bad both ways. 12179 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir ROBERT BEST - Yes ; it should have been rectified long ago, and I commend the Government for what they are doing. I do not propose to criticise the Budget statement any further. I am confident that the best interests of Australia will be served by accepting the assurance of the Leader of the Government as to their intention to further economize, and to afford this Committee the fullest opportunity of offering help and guidance to that end. I accept that assurance, and consider that public interests will be best protected by permitting the Government to remain in office. " 12179 K4M Indi VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK . - I desire to inform the Committee and the country of the attitude I intend to adopt in regard to the amendment. As to the necessity for it, there can be no two opinions. We are all agreed that economy is necessary, and I think it is a great pity that the Government have chosen to regard the amendment as an expression of want of confidence. The Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) made' it abundantly clear in his opening remarks that that was not his intention. 12179 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The Deputy Leader (Mr. Gregory) said it was intended as a vote of want of confidence, and could mean nothing else. 12179 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - I urge the Treasurer to read the speech of the Leader of the Country party. I have no desire to shift the Government from office, and, like a number of other honorable members in the House, am not particularly anxious for an appeal to the country. But it is so imperative that the economy which the Leader of the Country party has demanded should be brought about, that regardless of consequences, I shall support him. I intend to outline, briefly, one or 'two directions in which I believe savings 'can be effected. I was pleased to hear the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) say that if economy were essential it should start in this House. I quite agree that this should be done. Only last year, in about the shortest time on record, we passed a Bill increasing the salaries of honorable members by £400 per annum. It represented an annual increased expenditure of about £50,000, an amount which would provide interest on £1,000,000, and which, I think, could be devoted to very much more deserving purposes. Will the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) promise to bring down a Bill restoring the salaries of members to their former level? 12180 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Will the honorable member's Leader support me if I do so? He was one of those who asked for the increase, and he has not gone back upon the matter since then. 12180 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - I can only speak for myself. I will support the Treasurer if he will bring in this measure. It would prove to the country that he meant business. It would have a very steadying effect on an army of profiteers who are charging a great deal more for their goods than they should ask, and others who are continually clamouring for increased wages and shorter hours. I favour a percentage reduction on all salaries paid by the Commonwealth, commencing with 5 per cent on a minimum of £500 per annum, and increasing the deduction gradually to a maximum of 15 per cent. It, no doubt, would be a very unpopular move to make such a retrenchment, but the choice lies between this or unemployment. No action seems to have been taken in the direction of bringing about the amalgamation of the Taxation Departments. The State Parliaments are mostly concerned in this matter, but if tha Federal Parliament were to show that they were in earnest in desiring to bring about an amalgamation, which it is estimated would effect a saving of £80,000 per annum alone to the State of Victoria, they would get the overwhelming support of the general public, and the State Governments could no longer resist the proposal. The outstanding feature of the Budget is that the expenditure for the year is estimated to exceed the revenue 'by £2,800,000. The Treasurer excuses this by saying that he hay to meet past legacies to the extent of £1,500,000. He tells us that there is a wide gap between the estimated de crease in .revenue of £3,730,258, and an imperative increased expenditure of £3,000,000. The gap represents- £6,730,258. The- Treasurer, however, does not tell the Committee that this 1 year he has over £5,000,000 less to spend out of revenue on war services and soldiers than was spent last year. The two items practically balance one another. . The cost of administering the * Taxation Department in 1916-17 was £198,967. It has increased to £546,127 in the present year. The number of officers employed in the Department in 1916-17 was 637; to-day the employees number 2,037. The number of income tax payers in 1916-17 was 241,933. This year the number is 434,671. In the Defence Estimates it is proposed to spend on Military services £1,939,035, on Naval services £2,465,148, and on Air services £100,000. In addition the estimated expenditure on new works is as follows:- Military £1,063,819, Naval, £499,000, Air £400,000. The total expenditure under these two headings is £6,467,102. I cannot point out where saving can be effected in this particular direction, but I feel sure that in such a large expenditure savings ought to be possible, particularly when as a result of the forthcoming Disarmament Conference at Washington we may get an instalment of disarmament justifying a considerable reduction in this particular expenditure. The cost of universal training in 1913-14 was £191,950. It is estimated that this year it will be £434,302. The jump seems extraordinary. The salaries paid in the High Commissioner's Office, London, in 1913- 14 to thirty-four employees amounted to £8,445. This year the employees number ninety-two, and we are asked to spend £12,338 in paying them. The expenditure on the contingencies in the same office was £16,162 in 1913-14. It is estimated that we are. to spend £51,250 in the same direction this year, and in addition we are obliged to pay approximately £55,000 per annum as interest on £970,000, the capital cost of Australia House. If this expenditure is to be continued in the London Office, it warrants a great deal more being done for Australia than has been done in the immediate past. The Customs and Excise revenue last year was £31,809,906. Tie estimated revenue from this source this year is £26,131,000, a decrease of nearly £6,000,000. The cost of collection last year was £715,000, and it is estimated that it will cost £745,000 to collect a smaller revenue this year. The expenditure on the Federal Capital to the 30th June, 1921, was - out of revenue £1,106,096, out of loan funds £716,988, the total being £1,823,084. On this year's Estimates provision is made for an expenditure of £417,000. This is money which could be more wisely spent in other directions. I have no desire to repudiate our liability to build the Federal Capital, because we have made a contract which we must honour, but we ought to take into consideration the present high cost of building, high wages, and short working hours, also the inefficiency and bungling of departmental officers. We could save at least £250,000 by deferring expenditure in this direction until the condition of the finances becomes normal and we can get twice the amount of work done for half the amount of money we would spend at the present juncture. 12181 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Doe3 your Leader follow you in that respect? 12181 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - I am speaking for myself, and ako for the taxpayers of Australia. I do not want to see a penny piece of retrenchment in regard to settlement of soldier settlers. On the other hand, I would favour increased expenditure in this direction. No doubt soldiers' grievances have been made a stalking horse by many, but I am in earnest in this regard, as a little inquiry in the district I represent will easily prove. The Commonwealth has been fairly generous in respect of expenditure on soldier settlement, and as a result has settled 24,521 soldiers. It has advanced £28,350,000 to the States, for the purpose. 12181 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Mostly to Victoria. 12181 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - Victoria has received £11,000,000. I have been in the homes of these soldiers and on their farms. I have clone a considerable amount of valuation work for them. I know their position well, and I can assure honorable members that they are in for a very rough spin and will need very fair and reasonable treatment from the Commonwealth and State Governments. If they get it, I am convinced that a vast majority of them will pull through. But we cannot get blood out of a stone, and many of them will require extended terms. I regret to say that, in some cases, we may have to wipe out the obligation. The question of paying back the advances made by the Commonwealth is largely a State matter; but if theState authorities cannot get the money out of the returned soldiers, how is it going to be done? Is any honorable member prepared to stand up and say that returned soldiers must be put off their land if, owing to conditions over which they have no control, they are unable to meet their obligations? 12181 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - How are you going to do all your party advocates, and at the same time keep up the " economy " stunt? 12181 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - For a start, I want to take a few pounds a year off the Minister's salary. We ought to set a good example to the rest of Australia in this matter. If we do not, how can we expect the workers to appreciate any efforts in the direction of economy? In the Department of Repatriation a very large sum of money has been spent in the purchase of land and construction of homes for returned soldiers. A great number of the homes, I regret to state, cost too much, and much of the land has been bought at above its value. An Honorable Member. - The land you valued? 12181 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - No. I am prepared to find a syndicate to take up all the land I valued at the prices recommended. A large sum of money has also been spent in the purchase of stock for returned soldiers at prices, I am sorry to say, that were about 100 per cent. above present market rates. 12181 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Is that the fault of the officers? 12181 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - No blame can be attached to any particular officer. The trouble is due to market fluctuations. A good deal has been said about the high cost of living. In connexion with this matter, I have prepared a few figures that will, I am sure, convince the Committee that the producer, at all events, is not the profiteer that some people would have us believe he is. The following comparison of prices will, no doubt, be interesting to honorable members: - Wheat last year was 9s. per bushel, and this year the farmer will be lucky if he gets 4s. 6d. A friend of mine, twelve months back, paid £12 per head for 500 bullocks, and a few days ago, when he sent a pen to market, he got only £6 6s. per head; that reduction representing a loss to him on his purchase of £3,000. Primary, producers generally are in much the same position with regard to their produce. Notwithstanding the. appalling depreciation in the price of stock and products, the Tariff has placed a further burden of £32,500.000 on the people of Australia, but principally on the producers, so it is easy to imagine what kind of a time is ahead of them. When I was in the Maranoa division of Queensland recently, taking part in the election campaign, the land-owners informed me that but for the excessive tax in the form of Customs duty on fencing wire, they would have been able to find employment for hundreds of the unemployed men who were drawing Government sustenance money in various parts of the Commonwealth. The duty on commodities essential to the welfare of our primary producers has placed an enormous burden upon them. Those honorable members who were responsible for the Tariff will be asked some very knotty questions when they go before the people at the next election. During the debate on the Tariff we had the spectacle in this House of manufacturers and artisans working together for a common purpose. My friend, the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins), and Mr. H. V. McKay, one of our principal iron manufacturers, were, for the time being, bosom friends, because Mr. Watkins wanted high pay for ironworkers, and Mr. McKay, as a director, wanted high profits for his company. Whilst I agree that we must have secondary industries to follow up our primary industries, there is a very great difference between Protection and absolute prohibition, such as we have in the Tariff recently passed. Fancy a duty of £45 on a reaper and binder. Imagine what a burden it represents to the 24,521 diggers who have been placed upon the land. The estimated cost of war pensions is £6,650,000, and of old-age and invalid pensions £5,200,000. This, I think, would be ample provision under efficient administration. I have not made an advertising medium of myself by moving the adjournment of the House to discuss pensions grievances. I have always gone straight to the responsible head of the Department, and I must confess that the Minister has met me very fairly. The Pensions Department is not managed as it should be managed. I know war pensioners in my electorate who are physical wrecks as the result of service abroad, who have had their pensions 'reduced to such an extent that it is impossible for them to meet their obligations; whilst there are others in fairly good health whose pensions have not been affected. I believe the same disadvantages apply in. connexion with old-age and invalid pensions, particularly the latter. The expenditure in connexion with invalid pensions is necessary and ample if properly distributed; but there are some anomalies that must be adjusted, and the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) would be rendering a service to the community if he arranged for a careful investigation to be made into the question of pensions generally. I do not wish to suggest that those who are justly entitled to pensions should have their payments reduced or stopped; but my complaint is that the £5,200,000 for old-age and invalid pensions is not equitably distributed. I know that I am touching upon quite a number of unpopular topics, but I consider it my duty to ventilate these matters, although by so doing I may jeopardize my seat in Parliament. There is also the question of maternity allowances, on which we are spending £700,000 a year, half of which is unwarranted because the money is not required by the recipients. If we had a Government with sufficient courage, payments in this direction could be reduced to £350,000 a year, and in doing so we would not have to penalize those unfortunately circumstanced. The position could be met by refusing payments to persons receiving over a certain income, which would be perfectly fair. Why should the taxpayers be compelled to contribute towards the payment of £350,000 a year to people who do not require it? It is the duty of the Government, and of the members of the Committee, t<5 realize the dangers confronting them, and to consider the position very seriously in the interests of the Commonwealth. The duplication of services to be found in connexion with the Taxation Departments also exists in relation to Commonwealth and State Savings Banks, and the unnecessary expenditure in this direction is as great a public scandal as the payment of maternity allowances which are not needed. In almost every country town one sees a Commonwealth Savings Bank and a State Savings Bank undertaking similar work for which the community has to pay. Tasmania has already agreed to the amalgamation. 12183 JOS 0 0 BELL, George Mr Bell -There are two in my town. 12183 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - Not a Federal and a State Bank ? The Government will have to curtail expenditure in this direction, as it is useless to have similar institutions performing the same work. If the Commonwealth Government will only give a lead in this direction the State Governments will not be able to accuse us of extravagance. It is time a definite pronouncement was made in connexion with the question of trading with Germany, as owing to compulsory disarmament Germany is able to spend £300,000,000 a year on her industries. .In these circumstances she will not feel the indemnity to any great extent, and at the same time will be able to defeat us commercially. I, saw an appalling announcement in the newspapers a few days ago to the effect that a German tender of £28,000 was accepted for a .large machinery plant required in a foreign country, for which a British firm tendered at £77,000. Germany is paying her operatives 5d. per hour, while Great Britain is paying 2s. per hour for similar services. Germany's success in trade and commerce is indirectly affecting the Commonwealth, and in view of the approach ing crisis it is imperative that the Estimates be reduced in order to balance the ledger. I have been a contractor for many years, and when contracts were not available men had to be dismissed. I am also a director of public companies, and when business is not prosperous I am reluctantly compelled to recommend a reduction in the staff. A similar policy should be adopted in connexion with Government expenditure, because if we look upon the Public Service as a benevolent institution we are on the high road to ruin. If we follow the advice tendered by the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), and, taking item by item, ask the Treasurer to recommend the reduction of expenditure where it is considered necessary, in the aggregate, by at least, £1,500,000, it will not only satisfy me, but I am sure it will meet with the approval of a vast majority of the taxpayers of the Commonwealth. Sitting suspended from 6.28 to 8 p.m. 12183 KDZ Grampians 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT .- An aspect that has intruded itself into the debate, and to which I desire to refer, is the suggestion of the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) that it would be wise to appoint a Committee1 or Commission to go into the question of economy for the purpose of helping hon.orable members to decide whether any substantial savings could be effected in connexion with the present Budget. In the course of the debate I have ventured to interject that a Royal Commission on Economies has sat and taken evidence. It seemed to surprise one or two honorable members in very responsible positions when I stated that that Commission had sent in two reports, and that I had seen and read both of them. I have the reports before me, and I trust that those honorable members will now believe that the Commission has gone into this very question. I fear that the reports have been ignored. 12183 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - I have read every word. 12183 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - No doubt the, honorable member for Wakefield has; but do . the Government know of the existence of the reports? 12183 KYD 0 0 POYNTON, Alexander Mr Poynton - They increased the cost of country telephones. 12184 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT -If so, then it wa3 the place of the Minister, and not our duty, to see that the Commission did not do so. This Committee is asked by the honorable member for Kooyong to vote against the amendment of the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) on the ground that a substantial reduction in the Estimates can he effected just as well, or even better, by appointing some Economies Commission or Committee to assist, presumably, the right honorable the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) in bringing down the cost of government. But on 10th November, 1920 - nearly twelve months ago - the Economies Commission reported - Our investigations have convinced us that largo economies are possible under a system of management which should give closer attention to organization and systematization and- with a system of continuous and far-reaching inspection in all Departments,, which will bring to the light of publicity all evidence of extravagance and inefficiency. Perhaps in another twelve months the recommendations, pf this Commission will have reached the ears of honorable members on the Treasury bench. The report of the Commission also states - The maintenance of reasonable economy in Government expenditure cannot be continuously secured by means of investigations carried out by fits and starts, and although specific evils may be put right temporarily, no lasting benefits can be insured by such means as against continuous supervision and criticism. I find that, on page 22 of the report, the Commission stated that, simultaneously with the presentation of its first progress report, the Chairman of the Commission addressed a letter to the Acting Prime Minister, in which it was stated - The investigations of the Economies Commission satisfied us that very large economies in the current expenditure of the Commonwealth are possible, and can be made. There is also much evidence indicating loss through want of economy iu the past which cannot now be recovered. So much for the suggestion of the honorable member for Kooyong to the effect that instead of pressing the amendment of the Leader of the Country party honorable members should be satisfied to ask for some fresh report from this Royal Commission, in spite of the fact that their report has actually been in existence for twelve months. 12184 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The Economies Commission recommends a system of continuous management, and that system has been approved and is embodied in the Bill now before the Senate. 12184 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I am very glad to hear that, and I feel quite satisfied that if the recommendations of the Commission can be put into effect it will not be found very difficult to bring about a large reduction in the present Estimates. I desire to address myself to the question before the Committee in the spirit which has been so generously and eloquently adopted by the right honorable the Treasurer, who stated last Thursday night - I am obliged to honorable members for their attention, and, with the facts as I have tried to present them, and such others as I hope to supply as the debate proceeds, I hope that we may keep the discussion on as impersonal a plane as we can. It is in that spirit that I propose to address myself to the Committee. Some people may think that there have been personalities bandied backwards and forwards among honorable members during this debate, but I hope to make my remarks absolutely impersonal and free from any spirit of party or personal bitterness. The question before us is not, and cannot be said to be, a party one in any sense -whatever. I am supporting the amendment of the Leader of the Country party without any desire to serve party ends. I am not in any way dissatisfied with the present Government. I do not. desire to see one change on the Treasury bench. In fact, if I may say so, I would not have a hair of the head of any member of the Ministry touched. They can remain in power, every one of them, for the whole period of the present Parliament, and the next Parliament, too. 12184 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - That is a distinctly personal remark. 12184 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - In that case I thank my right honorable friend for having, called me back to the path of impersonality which I have endeavoured to tread. I wish to speak with the highest respect of the Treasurer. I believe that he has given this question his earnest attention, and has brought in all measures of economy that he thought wise and prudent, but I do not think he has done sufficient. It is with the desire to help him- and the Government that I in- tend to vote to-night for the amendment. I am anxious that the Government shall follow what is clearly the path of their duty, that is, to withdraw this Budget, and bring back a better one more in accordance with the desires of the people of Australia. 12185 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - The whole of the Budget? 12185 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Yes, to withdraw it, and bring in another. 12185 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - You do not want to put the Government out? 12185 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I have not the slightest desire to do that; but if the amendment is carried, as I hope it will be to-night, and if the Government find themselves in a minority, I intend to show that it is their clear duty not to resign, but to take back the Budget, and bring forward another one. There is a feeling in the country, I am afraid, and one which has been most sedulously fanned, and is becoming widespread, that under no circumstances should the Government submit to the rejection of a Budget, but should immediately resign. I have some very high authorities ' to quote to-night to show that such a view is wholly unwarranted, and that it is the duty of the Government, if the House is riot satisfied with the Budget, and if the Government can, on reconsideration, see that it should be amended, to take it back, and bring forward0 another. It may be a matter of surprise to several of the high authorities in this Chamber that such can be done. I readily admit that I had not myself looked up the authorities until quite recently, but, when I heard member after member telling the Ministry that under no circumstances whatever could any self-respecting Government see such an amendment as that submitted by the Leader of the Country party adopted, and remain in office, I recalled some verses which I knew as a schoolboy. The lines refer to a Budget which Was brought down in the Mother of Parliaments in the middle of the last century, and taken back. They are as follow : - The Budget was a slight mistake, You call it quite correctly; But still confess for Candour's sake We took it back directly. They laughed it down on every side, Forgetting their dissensions; But not a single man denied It had the best intentions. 12185 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - Who wrote those words? 12185 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - They are by Winthrop Mackworth Praed, with whose poems I am sure the honorable member for Bailey must be familiar. Have I not heard the honorable member evoke the utmost enthusiasm in this chamber by his advocacy of the claims and needs of that great Australian poet, Henry Lawson? And shall it be said of the honorable member that he knows only one poet? No! He is familiar, as is every honorable member of this House, including yourself, Mr. Chairman, with all the poets of all the ages of all the nations. Following up this line of argument, and, in doing so, adopting a phrase appropriately poetical, I may tell honorable members that I have" scorned delights and lived laborious days " in consulting authorities upon the subject-matter of the political situation. I have before me two volumes of Todd on the history of parliamentary government in England. Todd has raid many wise things on the subject of Ministerial responsibility. In volume II. (vide page 502), Todd comments and adds a quotation from an utterance of Gladstone as follows: - When Ministers assume the responsibility of stating that certain expenditure is necessary for the support of the civil Government, and the maintenance of the public credit, at home and abroad, it is evident that none can effectually challenge the proposed expenditure to any material extent unless they are prepared to take the responsibility of overthrowing the Ministry. " No Government could be worthy of its place if it permitted its Estimates to be seriously resisted by the Opposition." 12185 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - The honorable member must be quoting from the wrong page. 12185 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Not so! Todd continues to quote the words of Gladstone thus: - And important changes can be made therein only under circumstances which permit of the raising of the question of a change of Government." However, I shall not proceed further with references to Gladstone, since that late right honorable gentleman was once described as having become "inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity." I propose, however, to furnish the Committee with some information regarding events which actually occurred. The people of Australia look to-day for responsible and stable government, and they do not expect that any Government in whom they have reposed confidence would retire from office upon any frivolous pretext. 12186 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - Does the honorable member call the amendment a frivolous one? 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - No; it is a very sound, sensible, and serious one. But should the Government decide to resign, in the event of the amendment being carried - as they have put it - " against them," they will have resigned for a frivolous and totally inadequate reason. There can be no justification for their resignation in such circumstances. I trust, therefore, that the Committee will agree to the amendment and that the Government- 12186 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Richard Foster - Will take it in the right spirit? 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT -Yes, and will take back the Budget and bring down to the House another. 12186 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - The Government have declared that they cannot do that. 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - All sorts of declarations are made in the heat of debate. I ask that, the Government having been made acquainted with the instances and precedents which I am about to quote, will take their position into full and serious consideration and decide whether it will not be the very best course to gracefully yield to the demand of the people. Let them take back the Budget and bring forth a better one ! In volume I., page 207, Todd refers to Sir Robert Peel. Peel will be admitted by all honorable members, of their own knowledge, to have been a great authority on constitutional and. financial matters. In 1841- 12186 KZ8 0 0 LAMBERT, William Mr Lambert - Cannot the honorable member go back a bit further? 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I have no scruples about going back into history for examples and precedents bearing upon the present situation. I may add that a nation which has no acquaintance with or regard for its history is without true knowledge and wisdom. I propose to delve even further back if necessary. Todd says - Sir R. Peel acknowledged that no Minister who is obstructed ' by a powerful Opposition, upon the first formation of his Government, is bound to resign after his first defeat. He did not consider it the duty of a Minister, having met with obstructions upon his financial propositions, at once to resign. He should not feel himself bound to resign on any single defeat, being of opinion that " the propriety pf resignation depends on a combination of circumstances." 12186 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - That must have been candid Peel ! 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Honorable members are accustomed to the candid remarks of the Prime Minister. I am bound to pay him the tribute of saying that if some of his most candid utterances could be read in association with those of Peel, the result would enhance the reputations of both great statesmen. I shall now quote an instance of what actually happened a few years later. In 1848, during the Ministry of Lord John Russell - 12186 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - That is pretty ancient. 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Ancient ? Would the honorable member wipe from the minds of the people of Australia all knowledge of the past? A nation which has no knowledge of its history is like a man who has no memory; and a man who has no memory has no mind. 12186 KZC 0 0 LAMOND, Hector Mr Hector Lamond - On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I ask that that insinuation be withdrawn. 12186 10000 0 0 CHANTER, John The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter - I listened very carefully to what the honorable member said, and I failed to note any personal application therein. 12186 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I thank you, sir, for the guarantee that, so far, I have not crossed over the line of impersonalities. This is what actually happened in 1848, when Lord John Russell was Prime Minister, and Sir Charles Wood - afterwards Lord Halifax - was Chancellor of the Exchequer, other members of the Ministry including such great figures in British political history as Palmerston and Grey. This was Lord John Russell's first Administration, and it lasted from 1846 to 1852. In Todd, volume I., page 802, the following occurs: - On 18th February, 1848, Lord John Russell being the First Lord of the Treasury, and Sir Charles Wood Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Budget was brought forward by Lord John Russell. His scheme was received with great disfavour by the House of Commons, and by the public at large, especially the proposed renewal and increase of the income tax. Though an adverse motion on this subject by Mr. Hume was negatived, the feeling in the House against the increase of this tax was too strong to be disregarded. Accordingly, on 28th February, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a new financial statement, in which he announced that the Government, in deference to the wishes of the House and the country, would not press for an increase of the income tax. 12187 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - The honorable member ought to know that that Government went out on the Crimean War. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT -I suppose I ought to know; but, as a matter of fact, this incident occurred some years before the Crimean War. 12187 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - If the honorable member says that, he knows nothing about history, or else he has no memory. And a man who has no memory has no mind. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - This took place before the Crimean War. Todd continues - Later in the session, on 30th June, Sir Charles Wood made another statement, consequent upon the great loss of anticipated revenue by the withdrawal of the proposed additional income tax, without the adoption of other measures for making up the deficiency. Finally, on 25th August,heproduced what was called his fourth " Budget," in which he reviewed at length the financial prospects of the year.. The Government not only did not retire because their Budget failed to receive the favour of the House and of the country, but they returned with Budget after Budget. They actually produced a fourth Budget, and the Government remained in office for another four years. 12187 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Sir Robert Best - But the adverse amendment was negatived, and the Government acted as the honorable member has related., subsequently. 12187 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr Atkinson - Of course; there is no similarity between the cases. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - There is this similarity, that the Government brought down a Budget which was not acceptable to the House and the country. Then the Government brought down another Budget, and that also was not accepted. Yet a third Budget was delivered and taken back', and the Government introduced a fourth Budget, which was at last accepted. 12187 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - All wrong ! Those are not the facts. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - Those are facts. They took back three Budgets. If this amendment be not negatived to-night, will the Treasurer withdraw the Budget and bring down another more acceptable to the members of this House and to the people of Australia ? If he will, I shall be delighted to support him. 12187 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - They did not withdraw three Budgets'. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - They withdrew three Budgets, and brought down a fourth. 12187 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - They only withdrew their proposals for taxation. 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - After having withdrawn three Budgets, and brought down a fourth, they remained in office for four years longer. That is a significant and important fact. 12187 DQC 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - If they had brought down a fifth Budget, I suppose they would have remained in office five years longer ! 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - If the Prime Minister were Treasurer, I know he would withdraw this Budget and bring down another, and then another, and still another. If he would do that, he could, as far as I am concerned, remain" in office four years longer. 12187 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Four years? I will do it! 12187 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - After that interjection, may I suggest that this debate be adjourned to allow the Government to consider their position and bring down a fresh Budget? It is true that Todd included in that great historical and monumental work of his the quotation which I have read from Mr. Gladstone, but I desire to add what Todd himself said, in volume I., page 798 : - The true doctrine on this point is that which was expressed by Lord John Russell, in 1851, after the Government had sustained a defeat on some financial proposition. Honorable members will remember that the Government sustained three defeats in 1848, and another defeat in 1851, and still remained in office. 12187 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - What do you think of them for doing that? 12188 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr JOWETT - I think they were one of the best Ministries that ever held office in any Parliament in the world. They were defeated regularly, time after time, three or four times a year, and they continued in office. Would not the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney) like to be one of such a Ministry, and would he not gladly welcome such defeats? I am here to-day trying to persuade the Government to take back their Budget and to remain in office for another four years. The quotation continues - He (Lord John Russell) remarked that, " Questions of taxation and burdens are questions upon which the House of Commons, representing the country, have peculiar claims to have their opinions listened to, and upon which the executive Government may very fairly, without any loss of its dignity, provided they maintain a sufficient revenue for the credit of the country and for its establishments, reconsider any particular measures of finance they have proposed." I have one more quotation that I desire to read oh this subject. I make no apologies to the Committee for reading these extracts, because they relate to vital matters that bear with the utmost importance and effect upon the issues that are now before the Parliament and the people of Australia. The people of Australia look for responsible government and for a responsible House of Representatives. They do not want a House which can be driven or goaded against its will to take certain action, but one which is responsible to the consciences of honorable members and to the electors who sent them here. The people look also for a stable Government. After the rejection by the House of Lords in 1861 of the Bill for the repeal of the paper duties, which formed part of the financial measures of the Government, the Secretary for War in the Palmerston Administration (Mr. Thomas Baring) said : - I am happy that we live at a time when experience has shown that a Budget may be modified or rejected without any change in the position of the Ministry. I am glad that we lave seen Budgets withdrawn and fresh ones introduced. We have seen taxes remitted, or taxes the remission of which, when proposed, has been refused without any effect upon the Cabinet. All we ask is that the Cabinet will rise to the occasion and accept an amendment like the one that has been moved by the Leader of the Country party in the friendly non-party spirit in which it is framed, and will retire, reconsider the Budget, and bring down a better one. The quotation from Mr. Baring continues in the following words: - In fact, a change of the Budget does not involve a change of Ministry, and I rejoice that it is so, because I think it would be most unpardonable obstinacy on the part of public men to adhere to the terms of a, Budget which was opposed to the wishes and feelings of Parliament. It would be unfortunate for the free exercise of the judgment of this House if the rejection of any portion of a Budget were to be construed into A vote of want of confidence. It has been expressly stated by the Leader of the Country party that the amendment is not intended as a vote of want of confidence. Confirmation of that statement has been given by members of the Country party who have spoken. I desire to repeat and reaffirm that in no sense whatever can this amendment be construed as a vote of want of confidence. I ask that members of this Committee shall vote for it, and give the Government an opportunity of doing what those wise and prudent statesmen whom I have mentioned did years ago in the Mother of Parliaments, to which we all look for an example. They should withdraw the Budget, reconsider the whole situation, and bring back another Budget of reduced expenditure more in accordance with the real desire of four-fifths of the members of this Committee. However members may vote on the amendment, the majority of them are strongly in favour of a reduction of the Estimates. If the Government will bring in a fresh Budget, showing greatly reduced expenditure, I will not be a party to turning one of its members out of office; but would rejoice if they remained in office another four years, like Lord John Russell's Administration did. 12188 KFF Kalgoorlie 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY .- After listening to the speech of the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett), I have come to the conclusion that his electorate ought to be renamed. When the honorable member for New England (Mr. Hay) was speaking, I joined the " Cheer-up Society." I am not a non-party man. I concluded, from the remarks of the honorable member for Grampians that he Ought to be named " the honorable member for Didn't Know It Was Loaded." The honorable member for Grampians moved a motion in this Chamber not long since which he did not know to be loaded. He said that he did not mean any harm by it, though it was a motion of a kind which in this or any other Parliament in Australia, and in the House of Commons, the Mother of Parliaments, from whom' we have borrowed our procedure, would be taken as one of want of confidence. Apparently the honorable member and his party think that they can dictate terms in Parliament without being made responsible for their conduct. If that is so, I, for one, shall do what I can to let the people say what they think of their proceedings. To-night the honorable member is following his Leader, who has moved an amendment which he does not know to be loaded. 12189 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - When did he say so? 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - The honorable member for Grampians said that his motion was not loaded, and the late honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. James Page) replied, " Well, if you do not know it to be loaded, we will load it for you," and the Labour party did so. I am a party man; I do not sail under false colours. Before the split in the Labour party, I was a member of that party, and was loyal to its rules, knowing it to be a machine organization. I helped in the making of the machine, in the hope that it would do good work, but I have never belonged to a party, nor would I join one, whose conduct was like that of the Country party, which tries to use a political machine, which it had no hand in creating, to secure what it wants. I remember the time when the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse) was a member of the executive of the Country party in the Legislature of Western Australia, and there was then a rule in its book - I could give the number of it which required that each member, before he took decisive action, whether to keep a Government in or to put one out of office, or in regard to the most trivial matters, should consult the executive of the party. I have never belonged to a party having such a rule as that. The Labour party has not such a rule. Mr.Hill.-Nor have we. 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - A member of Parliament should be at all times willing to take- his political life in his hands. He should accept responsibility for what he says and does. The honorable member for Grampians quoted certain politicians. 12189 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - Statesmen ! 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - They were politicians, every one of them. But if the honorable member had consulted May, he would know that the amendment of the Leader of his party is wholly out of order, and that the only reason that the Chairman had for accepting it was that Mr. Justice Isaacs, when a member of this Parliament, created a precedent which he feels bound to follow. According to May, and other parliamentary authorities, the amendment, which proposes the reduction of the item by 10s., a proposed reduction of £1 having already been defeated, is out of order as being frivolous. 12189 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - Is not that remark a reflection on the Chair? 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - No. The Chairman, unfortunately, feels bound by a precedent; but, according to the rules laid down in May, the amendment is out of order. The members of the Labour party are bound to vote solidly whenever the fate of a Government is at stake, and they are doing their duty in opposing the Government; but what are the members of the Country party doing? 12189 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - The honorable member had better inquire concerning the conduct of the members of his own party. 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - I act, not on the defensive, but on the offensive. The honorable member for Swan has told us that he came here to give a modicum of support to the Government. I believe that he honestly intended to do so, but his environment has been too strong for him. 12189 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - The environment has been too strong; but everything depends on what is meant by "environment." 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - I had experience of a Country party in the State of Western Australia. It was in that State that the first Country party was formed. I do not wish to see the Country party of the National Parliament of Australia come down to the level of the Country party of Western Australia. 12189 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - What did they do? 12189 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - The Country party in the Western Australian Parliament got everything it could from the Labour Government then in power, as honorable members here now who were in the- Western Australian Parliament will admit. Money was advanced to its supporters on which the Government charged interest, because it had to pay interest on the money which it had borrowed. Members of the Country party then controlled the wheat of the State as similar men controlled the wheat of other States. At that time wheat was worth nothing, because it could not be shipped from the country. Thereupon the Labour Government came to the assistance of the farmers, guaranteeing them a certain price for their wheat, and 9s. a day as wages or sustenance, and the Country party then put them out of office. When the Liberal party came into power the Country party did exactly the same thing with them. It is all right for a political party to endeavour to secure what it can, but I say that when a political party, or a section, endeavours to obtain all it can from other parties and, in order to do so, is for ever holding a gun at their heads, the gun should be loaded, and they should sometimes shoot with it. Let the Country party in this Parliament shoot to-night. I am sitting behind the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) at the present time, but I can tell honorable members that it would have taken dynamite to drag out of me what some of them dragged out of the Prime Minister very easily the other day. They would not find me doing what the Prime Minister did. I am behind the Government, and my vote will be recorded for what is contained in the Budget. I have not counted heads, but I believe there is a majority of honorable members who are in favour of the consideration of the Estimates as submitted, with the right to discuss them, asked for by the honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Bayley). The honorable member had that right without obtaining the special permission of the Prime Minister, and every other member of the Committee has the same right. The right honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) practically said, " Here is my vote. Give me a bid for it." The price the right honorable gentleman asked was that the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Greene) should be given the portfolio of Treasurer if the present Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) went to England. 12190 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - A good man, too. 12190 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - I am not saying anything against him, but, if I were Prime Minister, I would not be bluffed into doing anything of that kind. I would not support a Government that would consent to be continually bluffed. I would not palter for a moment with a party that was out to get all it could, but would never take responsibilities. If we are to trust the people, there is only one way in which we can do so, and that is by an election. I would be injured as much financially by an election at the present time as any other member of the Committee, because 'I have just gone through a very severe election, but I should prefer an election to giving way in this matter to the Country party. The people of Australia send members into the different Australian Parliaments to do big work, and they elect them for three years. I have gone into1 the figures, and considering the record of the Federal Parliament from its inception to the present time, I find that the average duration of a Parliament has not been quite two years. The people of Australia will have to consider whether they should go on in the present fashion or go back to State ideas and settle the matter in their own way. If we are to have an election within two years, instead of every three years, there must be something wrong with the existing system. Mr.Prowse. - Does the honorable member not think that representatives of the people should be given' an opportunity to consider the finances? 12190 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - If the honorable member knew something of parliamentary procedure he would know that every member of the Committee is given an opportunity to speak and vote upon every item of the Estimates. 12190 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - We tried that last year, but it was no good. 12190 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse) asked me whether a representative of the people had not the right to consider the finances. I say that every member of the Committee has that right. If the honorable member is not strong enough to assert it, then he ought not to represent a constituency. 12190 K4M VFU; CP from 1920 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr ROBERT COOK - The honorable member said he was a party man. 12190 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - Yes ; and a pretty strong party man too. There is nothing of a non-party character about my speech. I am right behind the principles of the Government. When I was elected last December it was on the understanding that I was responsible to my electors only. If anything should occur in this Chamber with which I disagree my conscience is clear that I have not to ask any other person what I shall do in the matter. There are items in the Estimates which I intend to oppose, and I shall submit my reasons for my opposition to them at the proper time. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) submitted a definite amendment that was quite in order, and said that his purpose was to secure a reduction of expenditure on Defence. That was a genuine proposal. The honorable member knew what he wanted, and he went right after it. He gave every other member of the Committee an opportunity to record a straight-out vote. The Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) has submitted another amendment, and since he did so the members of his party have been apologizing. They have been telling us that their amendment is not loaded, and that they do not mean it to be regarded as a want of confidence motion. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said straight out that he did mean it by his amendment, and there was no doubt at all that he did. If the members of the Country party desire to-night or at any other time to submit a motion or amendment, they should take full responsibility for their action. 12191 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - We are quite prepared to do so. The honorable member need not make any mistake about that. 12191 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - The honorable member says that the members of the Country party are quite prepared to do so. He quoted some beautiful poetry for us about some one who took a Budget back. The honorable member quoted Todd, but Todd did not know everything. There was a man named Jackson, who also knew something. In what year was the poetry quoted written? 12191 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - In 1848. 12191 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - Well, in 1849 there was another verse added to that poetry. Another poet wrote something about a man taking a Budget back - But if they should not take it back > 'Twould cause a sad reflection; And, worse than all, it would mean the sack, A general election ! Honorable members say they want to economize. The Leader of the Country party told us that we have political incompetents, treachery, wastefulness, extravagance, and departmental faking of figures. 12191 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - Who said that? 12191 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - The Leader of the Country party. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition would not say so, because he knows different. If, as the Leader of the Country party alleges, the Government is guilty of. treachery, wastefulness, and extravagance, and on top of all these things is incompetent, then the honorable member and his followers, in urging that his amendment, providing for a reduction of the Estimates brought down by that Government, is not to be taken as a motion of want of confidence, are not doing their duty to the people they represent. If the Government is guilty of these political sins, it cannot be politically honest. It has been held in a Court of Law that a man cannot be politically dishonest without being personally or socially dishonest. That being so, I contend that the Country party should be prepared to take the full responsibility for their action. The honorable member for Darwin (Mr. Bell) has said that he is going to vote against the Government on the score of economy. If he thinks that the Government is no longer worthy of support he is right in voting against it; but while he claims that greater economy is necessary he at the same time demands increased war pensions. If the war pensions are to be increased, then the Estimates must be increased accordingly. Another honorable member who proposes to vote against the Government on the ground that greater economy is necessary, is appealing for something else which will involve increased expenditure. Every honorable member of the Country party who has spoken has said that he believes that the Post and Telegraph Department has been starved. Not one of them has said that it would cut down the Estimates of that Department. All are in favour of an increased vote for post and telegraph services. That being so, how could they expect the Government to bring down Estimates providing for an expenditure less than that which was incurred last year? The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that he wanted to cut down the Defence Estimates. 12191 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - And we still want to do so. 12191 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - Honorable members opposite are in favour of cutting down the Defence Estimates, but at the same time they would increase the expenditure of other Departments. Does any honorable member who proposes to vote for the amendment want a reduction of the Estimates for the Post and Telegraph Department, or a reduction of war pensions? Does any one of them desire that the invalid and old-age pensions shall be reduced, or the maternity allowance cut out ? No. If we consider that a division or an item in the Estimates of any Department is too high, we shall be able to move for its reduction. I, for' one, intend to exercise that right. If, however, honorable members say that the 'Estimates as a whole are wrong, then they condemn the Government for bringing them down. I take the view that a definite policy should be laid down in regard to the Post and Telegraph Department. The Post-Office is just as essential to the development of Australia as are our railways or any developmental work. Mr.Prowse. - But the honorable member does not believe in living beyond his means. 12192 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - I do not think there are many men in Australia who would allow me to do so. The Postmaster-General should be told by the Parliament that his Department is not expected to pay - that it is to be regarded as a part of the developmental policy of the Commonwealth. If that policy were laid down good work would result. We could follow such a policy and still save money. There is much talk just now of a National Convention to consider the amendment of the Constitution. There could be no greater waste of money than would be involved in the' holding of such a Convention. This Parliament has been in existence for nearly twenty-one years, and during that time no party has had a monopoly of it. Every party has occupied the Treasury bench, and surely there can be found in a National Parliament men of sufficient brain's to be able to recommend to the people desirable amendments of the Constitution. Their efforts might be supplemented by Committees appointed by the State Parliaments' to make recommendations. In that way, the faults which have been found in the working of the Constitution could be so amended that the National Parliament would be more fully equipped to properly carry on the affairs of the Common wealth. There is no need for a Convention, and the holding of it would mean a serious waste of public funds. When the promised taxation measures are brought down, I shall have something to say with regard to the taxation proposals of the Government. The mining industry of Australia has undoubtedly been retarded of late years by Federal taxation and other causes which are not hard to find. The whole industry, which means so much to Australia, and which has clone so much for the country, is relying wholly and solely on the gold premium which is being paid by non-British countries. If the gold bonus were stopped to-morrow, every mine in Australia with two exceptions would have to shut down. There is urgent need of taxation reforms. The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) knows as well as I do of specific instances in which Federal taxation has severely handicapped the industry. I can say, however, that there was no more pleased section of the community in Australia than were the people of the various mining constituencies when the Treasurer announced his intention of repealing certain iniquitous taxation measures, and so giving the industry the relief that it needs. I shall reserve any further remarks I have to make on the subject of taxation until the measures relating to the Treasurer's proposals are before us. In conclusion, I repeat that if the amendment means anything at all, it means that this Government is incompetent. Neither the Leader of the Country party nor any of his followers will deny that they have contended that the Government is incompetent. 12192 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - I raised no such contention. I said exactly the opposite. I urged, however, that we wanted a better Budget. 12192 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - Todd also said that. The honorable members of the Country party, thinking the Government incompetent 12192 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - They do not. 12192 KFF 0 0 FOLEY, George Mr FOLEY - Every one of them, with the exception of the honorable member, has put forward that view. If that! is their honest belief, then they are destitute of every essential necessary to Australian statesmanship if they do not vote against the Government. They cannot vote against the Government if they have confidence in the Government, and, if they have not that confidence, they must come out into the open for the first time, and I am very pleased that that is so. If there is an appeal to the people the Country party may come back in strength, but it will be very many years before a party with so little of a constructive policy as was put before us by the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) is placed on the Treasury bench. 12193 JMG Wilmot 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON .- I do not know that I have quite made up my mind which way I am going to vote. I cannot, however, let this occasion pass without saying something, and I hope to treat the question, as far as possible, in a non-party way. Unlike the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Foley), I cannot see that the Budget and the finances of the country ought to be regarded as party matters. I listened to the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), and I consider he made out a very good case. I am not satisfied with the way in which the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) and the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) received the honorable member's remarks; but I cannot allow such matters to sway me - they are only by the way. 12193 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - As in the case of the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), your vote is right! 12193 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - We shall see when the division is taken. I cannot say that the Budget satisfies me, for I do not see in it any real promise of economy. I remember that during the elections the Prime Minister, at Bendigo, said that the Government would observe the strictest economy. I went before my electors on that plank, and I am doing my best to observe it. This Budget makes no provision for the future. I dare say the Treasurer has raked it a bit, and cut down this or that vote, but there is no promise or principle laid down as to what is to be done in the future to stop the financial drift. These are not ordinary times, and the Treasurer cannot take exception to my speaking in this way, seeing that I have done so on two or three previous occasions. I cannot help it if the Treasurer takes no notice - that is his own business. The financial situation is so serious that the Government ought to rise to the occasion, bub we find in the Budget no indication of any serious attempt - any heroic attempt - to meet our present desperate case. I see nothing in the Budget about reducing the maternity allowance and paying it only to those women who need it, nothing about cutting down the expenditure on the Federal Capital and other expenditure that could, very well be put aside for the present, nothing about a scheme of national insurance and old-age pensions under which the people shall be made to contribute. 12193 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - What about the charity vote of £85,000 for your little island ? 12193 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - We want more, and if there is any justice in this Parliament we shall get it. 12193 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - You are killing your chance of getting it! 12193 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I cannot help that. I see in the Budget no proposal to do away with the Arbitration Court and other lumber which has outlived its usefulness.We have piled up a huge debt with a large interest bill to meet every year, and the expenditure of that money is in no way reproductive; we are in the position of a man in business who is working off a "dead horse." 12193 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Supposing we repudiate it? 12193 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I cannot suppose anything of the sort; I cannot imagine Australia in any way repudiating her debt. We have heavy liabilities in other directions. The development of Australia must be carried on, because, although it is necessary to save as much as possible, it is necessary to tap the latent wealth of this country in order to meet our heavy expenditure, and such development involves our taking certain business risks. For instance, in the development of the oil and other industries the Government must take some reasonable risks. If I followed my inclinations I should vote for this amendment; but I am going to do what I consider is best in the present difficult situation of the country. I maybe wrong in my decision; it is very easy, in such matters, to come to a wrong conclusion, but I am trying to look at all the facts of the case. The Leader of the Country party, when he spoke, said it was absurd that the Government should regard his amendment as one of want of confidence. The honorable .member must have known from his experience of last year, and even from what happened at the meeting of his paTty when the amendment was sanctioned, that it amounted to a motion of no-confidence such as no self-respecting Government could accept. The honorable member's attitude shows -that his heart is not in his proposal, and there are honorable members in the corner who are hoping against hope that it will not be carried. 12194 C7E FSU; CP from 1920 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE - Nothing of the sort ! 12194 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - If the amendment be adopted I see no guarantee that the government of the country can be carried on. We require stable government - we require to go to work and save. If the Government do not exercise rigid economy, how can they expect the general public to do so? Unless every individual does his part in the exercise of thrift, how is the country going to pull round? Australia must get down to hard work and develop her latent wealth; and to that end the Government must set the right example. As I say, honorable members in the corner must know perfectly well that this amendment cannot be taken as any other than an expression of want of confidence. 12194 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - We desire economy, at any price. 12194 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - That is just the point. If we could get real economy by voting against the Government, I should do so to-night; but I see no promise of anything but political chaos. We must consider all the facts, and we know that if this political chaos is created, it will be no time before there is a dissolution. Personally, if I were anxious about retaining my seat in this House, there could not be an appeal to the country at a more opportune time than the present. I do not think that the people outside desire a dissolution, but rather that the government of the country shall be carried on. Unless there be a double dissolution, another election for the Senate will not be due for twelve months, and if a single dissolution were to take place now it would mean that every three years there would be separate elections for the Senate and the House of Representatives, and that would mean an additional cost of £60,000 or so every three years. 12194 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - That would not matter if by a single dissolution we saved the country £2,000,000 or £3,000,000. 12194 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I do not see how we are to save the country £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 by adopting that course. The amendment proposes that the Estimates shall be cut down by £2,800,000, so that the Government may live within their income. They can do that by refraining from spending, but if a change of Government takes place I have no assurance that we should get more economy from the incoming Cabinet than from the present Government, who have promised to give the closest supervision to the expenditure with a view to economy. I think the Treasurer should go further, and give the Committee an assurance that he will reduce expenditure without waiting for this Committee to indicate where the reductions shall be made. It is very difficult for a private member to place his finger on an item of expenditure which he can definitely pronounce excessive. He may point out an item which, in his opinion, should be reduced, but a satisfactory explanation will be given by the Department, and the item will pass. 12194 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I will guarantee that- to-day I have refused requests for expenditure totalling £50,000. 12194 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I am glad to hear that, because I am convinced that the Treasurer can save by refraining from spending. Since the amendment was moved we have heard the Treasurer promise that the strictest supervision of the expenditure would be maintained in order to see that the outgoings did not exceed the income. I believe that will be done, and if it be done properly I am satisfied that we shall get as much economy in that way as we would by compelling a change of Government, especially as we cannot be sure of getting a new and stable Government. In the present state of parties I cannot see how any other Government could conduct the affairs of the country for a month without being forced to go before the electors. This should not. be, and would not have been so if there had been less party spirit behind the amendment and more thought for the interests of the country. There are in this Chamber enough members holding the same political opinions to form a new and stable Government, but this amendment has been brought forward in such a way as to prevent the possibility of that being done. The amendment was moved in a party spirit. 12195 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - No. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON -It is all very well for the Leader of the party (Dr. Earle Page) to say that finance should be treated as a non-party matter, but the amendment is clearly a party move. 12195 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - The honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Hill) said that the gun was loaded and at full cock. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - If action in the interests of economy was necessary, why was not an open indication of it given, so that those who were in favour of the proposal could have consulted and put a proposition to the Government. If the Government had not accepted their proposal, it would have been easy to substitute another Government that would give satisfaction to the House and the country. That course should have been followed, but it is too late now, for members have already pledged their votes. The amendment savours too much of party tactics. It is a well-known fact that throughout this Parliament many members on this side of the House have held exactly the same views on finance as are held by the Country party; in fact, every honorable member on this side was returned on an economy plank. The Government have not displayed sufficient strength in this matter. If they cannot save sufficient money to enable the finances to balance, they should be prepared to retrench. They could have proposed a 20 per cent. reduction of all salaries over £500, per annum. That is quite an easy step to take, and if they cannot balance the ledger by any other means they should be prepared to do that. 12195 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Does the honorable member advocate a 20 per cent. reduction of civil servants' salaries? 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Of all salaries over a certain amount, starting with members of Parliament. When money is short the Government should be ready to take even more drastic steps if necessary. Now is the time for action. If Australia does not call a halt now, when will it? The Treasurer estimates to spend £2,800,000 more than he estimates to receive. ' That indicates drift, and not economy. The Treasurer says that he is waiting for honorable members to indicate where these reductions can be made. I have no confidence in that sort of thing. I have seen too many Budgets presented and debated to believe that economy can come in that way. But if the responsibility were placed on the Treasurer to propose the reductions, we might achieve some substantial result. There has been a little bargaining on the floor of the chamber during the day, and I ask the Treasurer to indicate what he thinks of my suggestion. The Treasurer has said that he will exercise the strictest scrutiny over the expenditure, but I want a little more from him. I want him not to follow the usual course, but to propose reductions himself. 12195 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Tasmania has done remarkably well out of Government votes. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Tasmania has not received more than justice, as the right honorable gentleman knows. The State has to thank him in a large measure for the grant that was made. If the right honorable gentleman cannot give me a better answer than that I shall have to draw my own conclusions. 12195 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - And vote accordingly. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I want to know if the Treasurer is prepared to accept the responsibility of proposing reductions of expenditure? 12195 KYV 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr Riley - The honorable member will not vote against the Treasurer no matter what he does. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Let the honorable member mind his own business. If the Treasurer does not care to give me an answer, I must conclude that he proposes to adopt the usual course and get the Estimates through in thin Committees. 12195 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - On the contrary, the Committee, as I have already stated, will be invited to give its best consideration to the whole of the Estimates, and I shall take good care to see that a full and complete explanation" is given on every vote. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - That is all very well, so far as it goes. 12195 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - When the Committee is supplied with the facts it can make up its mind as to what it wants to do on them. 12195 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - But I want the Treasurer to take the initiative. 12196 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I need no prodding to take the initiative. Every day of my life I am looking for openings for savings. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - In a serious time like the present the Treasurer should take an unusual course, if it be necessary to do so, and come here with the announcement that he has already discovered where certain reductions can be made. He is behind the scenes, and knows what can be done. A private member may call attention to certain expenditure, but it can be, and often is, easily explained by the Department, and, after a lot of talk, the item is agreed to even without a vote. I want the finances dealt with seriously. 12196 KNH 0 0 MATHEWS, James Mr Mathews - Get the Treasurer to promise to reduce wages. That is what the Country party and the honorable member desire. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I am suggesting no such thing. I have been just as consistent a supporter of high wages as the honorable member has, and I do not hold the view that honorable members of the Country party want the Ministry to reduce wages. It is not too late for the Government to accept the suggestion put forward by the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) to hand the Budget figures to the Economies Commission for a report. 12196 JUV 0 0 MCWILLIAMS, William Mr Mcwilliams - It would take the Commission two years to make a report on them. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - The members of that Commission, having had a long experience of departmental work, are in a position to furnish a report within six weeks. It is a most practical suggestion, and one which the Government should adopt. It would be a way out for them, because if the Commission reported that further savings could not be effected, or that economy could be secured in certain directions, the Government could accept their report, and we could get on to business. 12196 KDZ 0 0 JOWETT, Edmund Mr Jowett - That would mean the withdrawal of the Budget and the bringing in of another. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - It would merely mean a postponement of the consideration of the Budget, and would not cause any man to be sacked or reduced in wages. The course suggested should be adopted. 12196 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - If it is not adopted, what then ? 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I cannot help it. I am not satisfied that we will get any better result by carrying the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), because that would mean a dissolution or a very disturbed condition of affairs quite opposed to proper administration. If the Country party can give a guarantee that they can carry on the affairs of the country, I am willing to give them a chance. I quite expect that this statement means my severance from the National party, with which I have been sitting since I have been in this Parliament. My attitude towards the Governmenttonight will probably satisfy them that I ought to be sitting in another camp, and I am quite prepared to accept their verdict in that regard, although I cannot see that there is any chance of stable government following the adoption of the amendment. 12196 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - I have heard of honorable members speaking with two voices, but the honorable member has spoken with six. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - Any one of the six is better than the honorable member's. We have sent Senator Pearce to represent Australia at the Washington Disarmament "Conference. If there is to be a change of Government, will he be recalled; and if he be recalled, how will it be possible to send any one in his place? 12196 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - What has that to do with the question at issue ? 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - It has a lot to do with it. I did not expect the honorable member to take a wide outlook upon this issue. I am satisfied the honorable member will do just what he is told to do by those outside. 12196 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - That is a deliberate untruth. 12196 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I do not think it is untrue. The honorable member will vote according to instructions from the leaders of the Labour movement outside. The position with regard to the Washington Conference is really serious. If a change of Government takes place, it is possible that the new Governmentwill recall Senator Pearce, and there will not then be time to send another man. I do not say that Senator Pearce is the man I would have sent, but he is in a position to place before the British Delegation Australia's point of view concerning Pacific problems. It is very necessary that this should be done. 12197 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - Do you think that the carrying of this amendment will mean cutting down wages? 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I do not think it will. It is a very good amendment. It has done much good already, for we have had a statement from the Treasurer that he intends to exercise economy, and I feel sure that at the end of the financial year we shall find that our expenditure has not been nearly so heavy as estimated. 12197 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - You certainly will. 12197 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Not if the Treasurer gets his hand on it. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I do not share the honorable member's apprehensions. I do not say that the Government would not spend the money, but as a rule the financial year closes before all the works can be put in hand, and, as I have said, the Treasurer has promised to-night, and previously, that the closest scrutiny will be exercised over expenditure during the year. 12197 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - But the revenue might not be so great as expected. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - There may be something in that suggestion, though I think the Treasurer has good reason to believe that his estimate will be realized. 12197 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I have checked all figures carefully, and seer no reason why expectations should not be realized. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I am satisfied with the Treasurer's assurance. At first I did not think we would get the estimated revenue from Customs and Excise, but when [ consider the large amount that' comes from Excise, it seems to me that there is every prospect of the full amount being received. As a large sum is represented in arrears of taxation, there is reason to believe that anticipations concerning the income tax will also be realized. 12197 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I have received £3,000,000of that already. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - My trouble with the Government has been that they have not realized the seriousness of the position otherwise the Budget' statement would have indicated a determination to effect drastic economies and secure greater efficiency in the Public Service. If I thought there was any possibility of stable government as the outcome of the carrying of the amendment, I would be prepared to support it. 12197 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - Well, give it a chance. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I am asked to vote for the amendment and give our friends in the Corner a chance. If I did that I would not be giving the country a chance. The suggestion reminds me of the story of a little boy who was walking through the streets of London with his father. They met a man dressed in a long black coat, with a Bible under his arm. The boy asked the father who it was, and when told that he was the Chaplain of the House of Commons, the boy asked, "Does he pray for the members?" and the father replied, " No, my son ; he looks at the members and prays for the country." Now, when I am asked to give our friends in the corner a chance I feel disposed to look at them and determine to give the country a chance, not that I love them the less, but that I love the country the more. I cannot see that the best . interests of the country would be' served by the carrying of the amendment, a subsequent dissolution, and change of Government. 12197 JX7 0 0 CHAPMAN, Austin Mr Austin Chapman - But how arc you going to vote? 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I think I have already indicated how I intend to vote, but I still press on the Government the desirableness of accepting the suggestion made by the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) that the Economies Commission should be asked to report on the Budget statement. 12197 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - But if we refused to adopt that report, what then? 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - In any circumstances, I cannot see how economy will be effected by carrying the amendment. In fact, I can see nothing but trouble ahead of us. I have thought out this matter very carefully. I have listened to all the speeches that have been made, and during the past few days have consulted men experienced in parliamentary life. None of them has been able to show me how the best interests of the country would be served by adopting the amendment. Mr.Hill. - But your constituents are the people who should be consulted. 12197 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - I am prepared to consult my constituents now. Personally, no time would suit me better. If we were to go to the country to morrow we would contest an election on the present boundaries, but in a few months time, probably, the boundaries of the electorates may be altered and a number of strange people - perhaps unfriendly ones - would became voters in one's electorate. One never knows what aspirants there may be for political honours in large constituencies. 12198 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - The whole of Tasmania would not be a very large constituency. 12198 JMG 0 0 ATKINSON, Llewelyn Mr ATKINSON - It would be quite large enough for the honorable member. It takes me two or three months to visit all the places in my electorate. For the reasons given I intend to oppose the amendment moved by the Leader of the Country party. 12198 JXA Hunter 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON .- Is the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) prepared to report progress at this stage? 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Can we come to a definite understanding to complete the debate to-morrow? 12198 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON -Up to the present honorable members on this side have not taken part in the discussion. 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - Yes, for which no thanks. 12198 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr CHARLTON - We shall do our best. 12198 F4S Parramatta FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 Treasurer 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK . - A most mysterious silence appears to have fallen upon honorable members opposite, and I think it is time some of them spoke merely to let us know where we stand, although we think we know the direction in which they will record their votes. I would like to get an undertaking that we shall finish the debate by to-morrow. Everything is being held up, but I shall report progress if I can be assured that the debate will terminate to-morrow. Mr.Charlton. - I cannot speak for all the members of the Committee, but there will bc several speakers from this side of the Chamber. I am not prepared to give a definite undertaking. 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - But honorable members opposite are not taking part in the debate. 12198 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - We have done our best to help you by acting as we have. 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I trust on effort will be made to conclude tomorrow because I am at my wits' end - I say it quite frankly - to find money to keep public works going. I have exhausted all the Treasurer's Advance, and I want to come back to these Votes to replenish it. If that cannot be done almost immediately I shall have to adopt other means. 12198 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - Why not take a vote now? 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I have no objection, but I understand that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) desires to. speak. 12198 JXA 0 0 CHARLTON, Matthew Mr Charlton - I am prepared to go on now if there is a prospect of coming to a decision ; but I presume other honorable members also wish to speak. We have been silent up to the present, but I want to put my case before the debate is concluded. 12198 F4S FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 0 0 COOK, Joseph Sir JOSEPH COOK - I think the request is a fair one, and I shall do as the honorable member suggests. Progress reported. House adjourned at 10.1 p.m.