1926-07-14 10 1 1 REPS 4115 0 House of Representatives. 1926-07-14 Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Littleton Groom) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 4115 Questions 4115 4115 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - Has the Minister for Trade and Customs yet' had time to consider the Tariff Board's reports on the iron and steel industry? 4115 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - I recently received from the Tariff Board one report on the industry referred to, and am waiting for another to complete the reports on that industry. They are receiving consideration. 4115 Importation of Petrol 4115 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY -Will the Minister for Trade and Customs table at once the report of the Tariff Board on the application of the British Imperial Oil Company for assistance in connexion with the importation of case petrol? 4115 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - Yes. 4115 4115 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - A number of people residing in and around Sydney have crystal wireless sets and make payments to the Postmaster-General's Department for the service of the broadcasting stations. Now that Farmers in Sydney has altered its wave length the owners of crystal sets are unable to get into communication with that station. Will the Postmaster-General Bay whether there is any means of protecting the interests of the public in such a case? 4115 KAY CP 0 0 GIBSON, William Mr GIBSON - Farmers' wave length has not been altered, and there is no reason why the owners of crystal sets should not be able to receive from it as well as from other broadcasting stations. 4115 Expropriation Board 4115 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - Has the Treasurer received either officially or personally any serious complaints concerning Mr. Peck, the chairman of the Expropriation Board in New Guinea? If so, what action does the Minister propose to take concerning the gentleman? 4115 C7E CP 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE - I have not received any serious complaints concerning the chairman of the Expropriation Board in New Guinea. 4115 Preference to Unionists 4115 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice - Is it a fact that the Commonwealth contract forms provide that successful tenderers must grant preference to unionists? 4115 KHG CP 0 0 HILL, William Mr HILL - The special conditions of contract contain the following clause: - In carrying out the work under this contract, preference shall be given - other things being equal - firstly, to returned soldiers and sailors with satisfactory records of service; and, secondly, to members of trade unions. 4115 4115 KXR 0 0 PARSONS, Walter Mr PARSONS asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether the Government will make the completion of the North-South Railway a necessary condition before it proceeds to build railways in the Northern Territory from any other direction, or assists in the building of railways having for their object the drawing of the trade from the Northern Territory east or west? 4116 F4B NAT 1 0 BRUCE, Stanley Mr BRUCE - This matter, which is one of policy, will receive consideration. 4116 4116 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - With regard to the Minister's previous reply to questions in relation to the loss of the Dorrigo,. is it a fact that the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854 which cover the transfer and sale of British ships refer mainly to preserving the rights, privileges and responsibilities attaching to the registry of ships under the Britishflag, and do not prohibit colonial governments exercising due precautions' for the preservation of life and property at sea within the limits of those colonies 7 If so, will he take such steps as will ensure the following data passing over from the vendor of any sea-going ship to any Australian owner ; - Drawings, showing the vessel's stability curve. Drawings, showing effects of all structural alterations (if any) made since the determination of the stability curve as in (a) ; and Reasons for carrying ballast (if any), and, also, the practice with regard to the water ballast tanks when the ship is (i) in light trim; and (ii) with deck cargo? In view of the several important points that have been raised since the Court of Marine Inquiry brought in its finding in regard to the Dorrigo disaster, will the Minister order the re-opening of the case and the- investigation - before competent naval architects - of the several matters, in order that happenings similar to the wreck of the Dorrigo may be avoided in the future? 4116 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : The sale and transfer of British ships are subject, throughout the Empire, to the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894, not 1854, as mentioned by the honorable member. There is no express prohibition in this act of action of the nature suggested in the question. As previously stated in my answer to the honorable member's question on the 24th ultimo it is not possible under the Merchant Shipping Act to impose in any Dominion conditions on sales and transfers made within its jurisdiction which are not equally applicable in other parts of the Empire. Since the finding of the Court of Marine Inquiry into the loss of the Dorrigo, no new evidence whatever has. been discovered or fresh facts adduced that would warrant the reopening of the inquiry; 4116 4116 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What was the amount of each loan floated abroad during the years ended 30th June, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, and 1926 respectively ? 4116 C7E CP 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE - The particulars desired by the honorable member are as follow : - 4116 4116 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - What was the value of raw cotton exported from Australia for the years ending 30th June, 1922, 1923, 1924, and 1925? What amount has the Federal Government paid each year towards the guaranteed price on seed cotton since 1920, up to 30th June, 1926? What bounties have been paid by the Federal Government since 1st January, 1917, and what is the total amount paid under each act? What was the total sum spent by the Federal Government in assisting and handling Australian dried fruits? What is the present price of American middling cotton lint on the Liverpool market? What is the rate of wages paid to cotton-pickers in the United States of America? 4116 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - The information is being obtained. 4116 4116 K4M 0 0 COOK, Robert Mr COOK asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - What was the percentage of telephone development in metropolitan and country areas, respectively, during this past three years? What was the capital expenditure during the same period in the same areas? 4117 KAY CP 0 0 GIBSON, William Mr GIBSON - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - 1923-24. - Metropolitan areas, 56 per cent.; country areas, 44 per cent. 1924-25. - Metropolitan areas, 45 per cent. ; country areas, 55 per cent. 1925-26. - Metropolitan areas, 44 per cent. (approximately) ; country areas, 56 per cent. (approximately). 1923-24.- Metropolitan areas, £1,529,223 (56 per cent.); country areas, £1,212,018 (44 percent.). 1924-25.- £1,598,411 (47 per cent.); country areas, £1,795,796 (53 per cent.). 1925-26. - (Figures are not yet available, but will be supplied to the honorable member at a later date). 4117 Australia's Delegation to Seventh Assembly 4117 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr WEST asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Have the following been appointed to represent Australia at the forthcoming conference of the League of Nations at Geneva : - The Hon. J. G. Latham, M.P., Mr. Manning, M.P., Sir Arthur Rickard, and Miss Freda Bage? Will they receive their expenses in connexion with such conference? Will the Prime Minister furnish) the House with reasons why four members of the Nationalist party have been appointed, and no member of the Opposition, representing at the last election 1,262,992 voters? 4117 F4B NAT 1 0 BRUCE, Stanley Mr BRUCE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: Yes. In making the appointments, the Government's only aim was to secure a delegation which would effectively represent Australia. As I have already indicated in statements to this House, the Government feels that the personnel of the delegation is such as to inspire the confidence of the people of Australia. 4117 4117 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE asked the Minister for Markets and Migration, upon notice - How many dairy farmers are there in each State in Australia, and what is the total number of dairy farmers in Australia? What were the average gross earnings of each dairy farmer during 1925? What has been the total saving made by the Dairy Export Control Board in handling the exportable surplus of butter for 1925-26, and how has it been done? How much is this saving per head of dairy farmers in Australia for the year 1925-26? 4117 KXT CP 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - The information is being obtained. 4117 4117 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr LISTER asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Whether representations have been made during recent months on behalf of cities and towns whose population exceeds 5,000 persons for a special Federal grant of £5,000,000 for road construction under similar conditions to those imposed upon shires and municipalities under the grant for country roads? If so, what decision (if any) has been arrived at. 4117 F4B NAT 1 0 BRUCE, Stanley Mr BRUCE - A deputation composed of representatives of Melbourne municipalities recently waited on the Minister for Works and Railways and urged that a grant of £3,000,000 be made for expenditure on roads within the metropolitan areas. The Minister informed the deputation that it was impossible to agree to any portion of the proposed grant under the Federal scheme being expended within the metropolitan areas. With this decision the Government concurred. A further communication has just been received from the chairman (Councillor A. J. Dunkin, Collingwood Council, Melbourne) of the conference of metropolitan municipalities on main arterial road construction, requesting a special Federal grant of £5,000,000 for the larger towns and cities of the Commonwealth. The Government is, however, unable to vary the decision already arrived at. 4117 4117 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - On the 8th July, the honorable member for Indi (Mr. Cook) asked the following questions: - Is it a fact that large quantities of oats have recently been imported into the Commonwealth. If so, what was the quantity, and where was it imported from. I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : - Yes. The imports since 1st April last were: - Canada, 53,655 centals; New Zealand, 867 centals; Chili, 49,250 cents; United States of America, 1,120 centals. Total, 104,892 centals. 4118 Movements of Chairman: Salary and Expenses 4118 F4B NAT 1 0 BRUCE, Stanley Mr BRUCE - On the 30th June, the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) asked the following question, upon notice - Is it a fact that Mr. Larkin, chairman of the Commonwealth Shipping Board, is in London; if so, how long has he been there? Is it a fact that the head-quarters of the Commonwealth Shipping Board are in Sydney? What salary does Mr. Larkin receive as chairman ? What expenses, if any (a) in Australia, (b) outside Australia, has he been allowed since his appointment? Is it a fact that, apart from salary and expenses, he receives an amount for entertainment purposes; if so, how much has he received? I have now received information from the Commonwealth Shipping Board to the following effect: - Mr. Larkin has been in London since April, 1925. Yes. £3,500 per annum. Travelling allowance : (a) £102, (b) £1,356, to the 31st May, 1926. Yes; £1,009 to the 31st May, 1926. 4118 4118 KI7 NAT 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE - On the 8th July, the honorable member for Barker (Mr. M. Cameron) asked the following questions : - What is the area of the Commonwealth Remount Farm, near O'Halloran Hill, South Australia? What is the capital value of this property? What is the annual cost of maintaining this farm? What useful purpose (if any) is being served by retaining this establishment? I am now in a position to furnish the following replies: - Area, 587 acres. Purchased in 1913 at a cost of £12,679 17s. 7d. Cost of improvements since effected, £5,820. Thecost of the remount depot, and including the farm, spread over a period of the past three years, averaged: - (a) Pay and allowances of personnel, £2,749; (b) maintenance of remounts, £805. (a) Breaking in, training for military purposes, preparation and issue of horses for the use of the Citizen Forces; (b) area for small camps and schools of instruction; (c) site and danger area for field artillery ammunition stores; (d) growing fodder to reduce the cost of maintenance of remounts. 4118 Importations 4118 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - On the 9th July, the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) asked the following questions : - What were the importations of petrol and other petroleum or shale spirit in gallons during the year ending 30th June, 1926? What was the value of pneumatic tires and tubes therefor imported during the same period ? I informed the honorable member that the reply I had given previously was based upon eleven months' actual figures and one month's estimated figures. I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following complete information to 30th June last : - 115,649,169 gallons. Pneumatic tires, £2,045,421; tubes therefor, £321,987; total, £2,367,408. 4118 Dr. de Luca's Treatment. 4118 KI7 NAT 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE - On the 26th March, the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked me a question concerning Dr. de Luca's method of treating tuberculosis. I am now able to inform him that some preliminary information has been received, with a statement by Dr. de Luca, that when the work is complete, he will disclose full details of the laboratory process. The information at present supplied is not sufficient to enable an estimate of the value of his work to be made. 4118 bill Message from the Deputy of the Governor-General recommending an appropriation reported. In committee ( Consideration of the message of the Deputy of the Governor-General) : Motion (by Mr. Pater son) agreed to - That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act relating to the export of canned fruits, and for other purposes. Resolution reported and, by leave, adopted. 4119 bill Message from the Deputy of the Governor-General recommending an appropriation reported. 4119 bill In Committee of Supply: Department of Home and Territories, £7,000, agreed to. Department of Defence. Proposed vote- £168,469. 4119 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY . - I suggest that at this stage the Minister for Defence should take honorable members into his confidence regarding the expenditure of the departments under his control. 4119 KI7 Calare NAT 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE . - When the bill providing for an appropriation for naval purposes was before the committee, I promised to give a detailed account of the Government's naval expenditure when the estimates were under consideration. The estimates now before the committee relate only to new works; but when the naval estimates are brought forward I shall keep my promise by making a full statement on naval matters. 4119 KMU Wentworth 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr MARKS .- Yesterday I asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice, whether any amount had been included in the estimates for carrying out the recommendation of the Public Works Committee to establish a naval training college for boys at Geelong. The Minister replied that no money had 'been placed on the estimates for that purpose. I look upon this as one of the most vital matters that has ever come before this Parliament. The Minister informed the House yesterday that from the time the training ship Tingira was taken over by the Commonwealth in 1912, at a cost of £15,000, until the present date, over 2,800 bluejackets and other naval ratings had been trained on her, and drafted to the Royal Australian Navy. During the war, the ship trained 1,000 ratings for our fleet, and in the last six months it has trained 71. The condition of the ship, as disclosed by the committee's report, is almost deplorable, and it is time we closed it up and moved to a better and more up-to-date establishment on shore, which is considered by the admiralty as the better system. But where shall we move, in view of the fact that we have to find 400 new ratings for the ships that are being built? Those new ratings have to be intensively trained in signalling, gunnery, seamanship, and other branches of naval work. Boys spend twelve months on the Tingira before they are sent on board a sea-going cruiser, or to special classes at Flinders Naval Base. Apparently that ship will continue as a training establishment during this and next year, and will then cease to function. The report presented by the Public Works Committee on the 3rd September, 1925, after an exhaustive consideration of the matter, stated - George's Head does not lend itself to the construction of the buildings such as are proposed. With regard to Flinders Naval Base, it was reported that the creation of a boys' naval training establishment there would entail just as much cost for buildings as would Geelong, and in addition a considerable amount for clearing. Moreover, it offered the vital objection of mixing the boys and grown men. With that view I entirely agree. Paragraph 22 of the committee's report, which is their recommendation, reads - With this reservation as to title, the committee is satisfied from its investigation that an establishment of the class contemplated is necessary, and that Geelong offers an ideal site for its location; and recommends that when the land becomes Commonwealth property, necessary construction work be put in hand as early as possible. As no amount is placed on the Estimates for carrying out the committee's recommendations, the question asked the other day by the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) arises, " Where are we in this matter?" There is an annual wastage of 200 in the personnel of our fleet. Where can boys be trained in that number? It is highly undesirable to mix boys and men at Flinders Naval Base. The Public Works Committee decided in favour of an establishment at Geelong. The Tingira has been gathering in annually about 300 boys at a plastic age, and has been a God-send to thousands of lads who wished to go into the navy. If a lad wishes to go into the navy, he may go either via the Jervis Bay Naval College or by the Tingira entry. In the former casey he sits 'for., examination at the age of thirteen, and, if he is successful, .passes into the. college at the age of fourteen. The demo,cratic system . of ' allowing two cadetships yearly from the- Tingira . to the Jervis Bay College should appeal to honorable members . opposite. . If the Tingira is closed, and, as has been suggested, enlistments, are sent to. Flinders Naval Base by direct entry at the age of seventeen," there will be no more cadetships from the lower deck of the Tingira, to Jervis "Bay College.. I know that the Minister for Defence has always favoured a greater age than fourteen years for naval recruiting. That is borne out by conversations .with the Minister, and also by a paragraph - T do not know whether it is true-which appeared in the Daily Guardian about a fortnight ago, in which the Minister is reported to have said - . I have definitely decided to make an end of Tingira's method of naval- recruiting. I propose to stop the recruiting of boys aged 14-i years. I will take boys' of at least 16 years. In this matter I am vitally opposed to the Minister. I wish that I had time to quote some of the views respecting the recruiting age as expressed by men who are now dead, but who served for" a lifetime in the British Navy, and in some cases rose to be Admirals of the Fleet; but the views of Nelson, Rodney, Jellicoe, and Beatty are well known, and agree with those expressed in a statement by an Admiral of the Fleet, the late Lord Fisher, who had 61 years' service in the Navy, ' and was responsible for the efficiency of the British. Fleet at ' the' time-, of the Jutland naval .engagement. By' scrapping hundreds of obsolete ships, which, could neither chase . nor steam away, and replacing them by modern vessels,' he brought the fleet to a high standard of efficiency. In his lectures to his officers in the Mediterranean he said - The enemy will suddenly confront us as an apparition-. At every moment we must be' ready. Can this be acquired by grown men? No, it is the force of habit. You must commence early. Our Nelsons and Benbows began the sea life when they first put their, breeches on. The brother of the Black Prince (John 0'Gaunt) joined the navy, and was ina sea fight when he was 10 years .of age. Far exceeding anything known in history does out future Trafalgar depend on promptitude and rapid decision, and on every eventuality having been foreseen by. those in command. . But these attributes cannot toe, acquired late in life. So begin early arid' work continuously. Everything hinges on the question of age. If the Tingira is scrapped, and the boys have to go to Flinders Base, it will be too late to train them properly at seventeen years of " age. Every" naval; authority agrees about that. Admiral Lord Fisher, commenting on an incident at Trafalgar, when a midshipman nine years of age, during a heavy gale, endeavoured to catch a blue-jacket who had slipped off one of the upper yards, said - I consider this instance a striking testimony to the inestimable benefit of . sending little boys to - sea when they are young. What splendid Nelsonic qualities were developed! That is the midshipman of the older day, and one often has misgivings that the modern system of sending boys to sea much older is a bad one when such magnificent results were produced .by the old methods. One would like to give it a trial of sending boys to sea at nine years old: The Osborne system of naval education has its great merits, but it has been a grievous blow to it departing from the original conception of entering at twelve years of age. Now let us come -nearer home. The second naval member, of the Naval . Board, Captain Cayley, a most efficient officer, when giving evidence before the' Public Works Committee, on pages 2.' and 3, said - My experience in the Royal Navy and in the Royal Australian Navy is' that the Australian boy is quite as good as boys of corresponding agc and training in the Royal Navy, and, intellectually, he is more alert; also, he does take to the sea if he is caught young. When the Royal Australian Navy was started in 1913 it was necessary to' recruit grown men, and, as a body, they were not a success..... The establishment at Osborne House will iri no way duplicate .any service that is being rendered by - either Jervis Bay Naval College or Flinders Naval Base..... The average number of entrants now is about six per week; but, unless we can expand the training establishment, we shall have to close down on recruiting - which would be a tragedy* - and borrow more, ratings from the Royal Navy. At present about 90 per cent, of the personnel of the squadron is Australian,' and our aim is to gradually eliminate the 10 per cent, of ratings borrowed from the Royal Navy. Commander Garsia, Officer Commanding. the Tingira, when before the Public Works Committee, on' pages 11 and 12, stated! - Under the stress of action, when men ' have to be alert, physically fit, and. 'trained to the last minute, and when they must be imbued with the necessary esprit de corps and have enthusiasm for their job, the .need for a long period of service becomes manifest. The. spiritual, as well as the material, side is essential in a fighting service like the Navy. We cannot do without the right' spirit.' Material knowledge,' though important, is less essential. I do not know whether the Minister for Defence fully realizes' the high educationa! standard that is necessary to enable petty officers to attain commissioned rank. Now that the Tingira is to be scrapped, I suppose that enlistments, say, . seven-ten years of age, will have three months' training at Flinders Naval Base, a quarter of which will be given to education, and after that they will go to sea. I ask, is it possible for a man to study mathematics, algebra, trigonometry, and physics on board a vessel at sea, and to qualify for commissioned rank? From considerable experience, I know that only in exceptional cases will that, be possible. Thus, in two or three years there will be no petty officers qualified to take commissioned rank. The Minister or the Naval Board may decide to extend the time for educational training at Flinders Naval Base; . but then the Minister will have .difficulties to face when he goes to the Treasurer for money. If there is a wastage of. 200 or 300 each year in the personnel of the fleet, the men have to be trained somewhere. Geelong and the Tingira have been rejected for training purposes, and the men will have to be trained at Flinders. More accommodation will be required there, and the Minister will -have to go, cap in hand, to the Treasurer asking for money to facilitate the erection of accommodation for the training of hundreds of men. He will say to the Treasurer, " We are going to extend tha time for educational training, because it cannot be carried out efficiently at sea, and I want accommodation for the men ;at Flinders." 4121 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr Lister - The Public Works Committee opposed the training of boys at Flinders. 4121 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr MARKS - Because it. approved of Geelong. Money must be spent at Flinders if the Geelong" scheme . is rejected ; but why not .spend it at Geelong, in accordance with the recommendation of a committee representative- pf !;:all - "sides of Parliament. I suppose 'on board ship no men- are-, more important than. the gunners and gunners'- mates, -and; the torpedo gunners' mates.- -It- is 'they who will handle' the magnicent weapons of the ' new cruisers sub marine's, and aeroplane carrier. -Unless we have properly trained men for these responsible' positions, in a few years'., time, if we enter another war, we shall be right, up against it. On the subject . pf efficiency, I could' quote hundreds of our leading naval men. On. the. 17th " December, , 1893, King Edward VII., who knew as much about the Navy. as any of his admirals, wrote to Sir .Henry Ackland, who was at that time, I. believe, in the Ministry, and urged that every possible step should be tak.en to- maintain . the efficiency of the .Navy. The situation, in Britain at that time was similar to that which we are facing " to-day. ' The Minister for Defence is, to., a certain extent, being politically bludgeoned by the Treasurer. .1 understand the. situation perfectly. I have no doubt that he requested the. Treasurer to provide. sufficient money on , 'the Estimates to enable the Geelong scheme to be carried- out, and pointed out .that at the last Imperial Conference, the Prime Minister- (Mr. Bruce), after consulting with Admiral; Sir Alan Everett and Lieutenant-Commander' Bush, who. accompanied him to London, promised that Australia would . undertake a certain- developmental programme" for defence purposes, which .involved, the construction of new cruisers, submarines," 'and a -seaplane carrier. The, two experts.' were doubtless asked to estimate the cost' o'f this extra equipment, and did so,' but, . xmf fortunately, they had insufficient data on which to frame a reliable estimate, "and this has now been largely exceeded. . Con-sequently the Minister for Defence is in a* difficult position. The Treasurer has probably said that he is willing to' provide an . amount equivalent to the estimate that the experts made, but 'nothing further. Of what use will it "be for us to spend £7,000,000 on new cruisers if we do not intend to man' them efficiently when we get them? It is a well recognized naval principle that boys must be secured young for naval training: - lit' would -not be satisfactory to man' vessels of the cruiser type with -men who had not begun their training until they were seventeen years of age, and lacked the sea instinct. The Public Works Committee recommended an expenditure of £88,700 at Geelong in " the first stage " to enable training to be commenced; £24,300 in the second stage " after occupation," which showed clearly that the expenditure in the first stage was sufficient to begin operations there; and £22,535 in what was called the " future." Surely we should not hesitate to spend even the whole of this amount of £136,535 to ensure proper training for those who will be required to man the cruisers. I point out to honorable members that it is highly desirable that these men should be in continuous training. If there is a break in the training, difficulties will undoubtedly arise within two or three years' time. I am informed on high authority that if even £20,000 could be spent at Geelong this year to provide such essential services as water and sewerage, training could be commenced. I have no doubt that we shall be told that the Minister is acting on the advice of his experts; but can we expect naval officers to stand up against the Treasurer and the Minister for Defence in a matter of this kind? When the Minister says "No money," the Naval Board are forced to agree; so the responsibility rests with the Treasurer. I wish to make it quite clear that I am not speaking on this matter at the request of the Minister for Defence; but I am well aware of his difficulty. I am also well acquainted with the views of all our leading naval authorities on this question, and they believe that we should follow the example of the Admiralty, which, while effecting great economies, is nevertheless carrying on the work of training boys for naval service. I give a warning to the Government as to the position to which it is drifting. I urge the Treasurer with all the sincerity I possess to provide at least £20,000 for expenditure at Geelong this year, so that the scheme may be established. Unless provision to that extent at least is made, a deadly blow will be struck at the efficiency of the Royal Australian Navy. Trouble will be caused two or three years hence in regard to the efficient manning of the Fleet, and dire trouble should we be engaged in hostilities. 4122 L1J Corio 0 0 LISTER, John Mr LISTER .- At last we have been given some information as to the intention of the Government with regard to future naval training, and as the representative of the Corio Division, in which Geelong is situated, I must confess that I am surprised at the statement that has been made. We must regard naval training as being quite different from military training. In the light of the statement that has been made, I feel constrained to ask what has become of the proud boast made at the time the Royal Australian Navy was established ? Surely, if it were considered necessary in those piping days of peace to set up our navy as a unit separate from the British Navy, it is necessary today that we should maintain it. I freely admit that opinions may change with the passage of the years, but in my view it is far more necessary now than it ever was before that Australia should have her own navy. I should like to see our navy staffed with Australian-born men if possible, or at least with men who have been imbibing the spirit of the Australian nation from their earliest years. 4122 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr Marks - All the Tingira boys are imbued with the Australian spirit. 4122 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr LISTER - Yes; all who have gone through that school are. But the training required for the Navy is different from that needed by the Army. It has been said frequently that the Australia a can adapt himself to any circumstances, and that is probably why our soldiers gave such an excellent account of them-' selves as they did overseas. The remarks of the honorable member for Wentworth should carry considerable weight on account of his naval experience. I believe that the only way to get men of the right type is to catch boys when they are young. The Public Works Committee strongly recommended that the naval training establishment should be located at Osborne House, Geelong. I need not enter into a dissertation upon the benefit of placing the establishment there, where there are fine buildings and a large bluestone residence, capable of providing accommodation for hundreds of men. 1 do not even consider it necessary to attempt to justify the expenditure of £20,000 that the honorable member for Wentworth suggested would he required to establish the training school there. If the work were to be done precisely in accordance with the wishes of the department, no doubt £80,000 would have to be expended, but I think that it could be carried out at considerably less cost. The Treasurer should consider the matter from the point of view of the safety of the nation. If that were done, provision would be made for the immediate needs. Another item to which I desire to refer is the sum of £8,000 for new buildings for the naval air service. This amount is altogether inadequate for present requirements. Prominence has been given in the press to the recent inquiry into the circumstances of the fatal accident that occurred a few days ago to two airmen from the Point Cook flying school. It was stated in the evidence that little or no accommodation was provided for married men employed there, and the fact was elicited that one of the victims had to travel 60 miles daily to and from his home. If proper accommodation for married men is not available in the vicinity of their employment, the Government should take early steps to provide it. I hope that the Minister for Defence will be able to influence the Treasurer in the direction indicated by the honorable member for Wentworth, and that the sum necessary to provide for the immediate transfer of the men from the Tingira to Osborne House will be voted. 4123 KYV South Sydney ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY . - I should like the Minister to furnish the committee with further information on this matter before a vote is taken. Why should the Tingira be removed from Sydney at all ? 4123 KMU 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr Marks - Because she is in a rotten condition. 4123 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - But she could easily be replaced by another vessel. It will prove very expensive to train the boys ou land instead of on board ship, and some good reason should be given for the proposal. The honorable member for Wentworth mentioned the number of men who had been trained on the Tingira, and had risen to high positions. Those who are. now to be trained on shore will not have similar opportunities to become officers. 4123 KMU NAT; IND NAT from 1929 0 0 MARKS, Walter Mr MARKS - I claim that twelve months' training on the Tingira is preferable to three months at Flinders base 4123 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - I understand that it is proposed to train the men for three months on shore, and then put them on a ship. I hope that the Minister will explain the position. The municipality of Randwick is anxious about the decision that the Government has come to regarding the Randwick rifle range. Recently the range was handed over to the- State Government, but, much to the annoyance of the local council, the Commonwealth authorities have reserved a strip of land running through it. The council claims that this will spoil the proposed subdivision, and that plenty of land is available at the Long Bay range. It is claimed that the whole of the range at Randwick should be transferred to the State. At the Long Bay range riflemen walk nearly a quarter of a mile before they reach the first firing point, and it is thought that this land, which at present is lying idle, should be made available for building purposes. The Government should sell the land to those who desire to live at the seaside. The Randwick .council and the various progress societies interested claim that the military, authorities should not monopolise land for which they have no use. I shall reserve what I have to say about the Navy until I have heard the Minister's reply to the honorable member for Wentworth. 4123 JZK Reid 0 0 COLEMAN, Percy Mr COLEMAN . - I find in the Estimates two references to the equipment which was presented to the Commonwealth by the British Government, the estimated value of which, speaking from memory, was at the time £2,000,000. A considerable time ago, I referred to the fact that a good deal of expense was being incurred to prevent depreciation in leather and other equipment comprised in the gift. A very considerable portion of the gift equipment is, no doubt, now out of date. Honorable members are aware, that the Commonwealth has incurred large expenditure in reconditioning gift aeroplanes which had been allowed lo lie and rot for some time before any attempt was made to use them. I should like to know from the Minister what is the present " position with regard to this gift equipment received from the British Government. If, as has been stated, a considerable portion of it is now obsolete, can serve no useful . purpose, and is in fact a source of expense for maintenance, we might as well sell it. I should . like to know whether there are any difficulties in the way . of disposing of' it. 4124 KI7 Calare NAT Minister for Defence 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE .- The honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Marks) has raised a question concerning training for the Navy. It is known to honorable members generally that the honorable member . has had a great deal of experience in connexion with the Navy, and any opinion he expresses on the matter is worthy of consideration. He is perfectly well aware that the matter to which he has referred has received the greatest consideration from the Minister for Defence and his advisers, and reference to the estimates and to the naval construction policy of the Government will show that we are passing through an extraordinary period in the history of our nation. During a little over three years, the Government is proposing an expenditure of nearly £7,250,000 to give effect to its naval construction policy. It is also providing for something even more important, and that is the necessary personnel... Honorable members have referred to the human factor, and the psychology necessary for the training of lads for the Navy, and they will recognize that the human factor is of even greater importance than is the construction ' policy. Those who recall the work of our Navy during the late war will recognize that at the outset we owed the safety of our homes to the fact that we were so . extremely fortunate as to have the Australia in our home waters. Had it not been for this, our ports would have been exposed to shell fire, and our people to the grievous injuries which would possibly have resulted therefrom. The honorable member for Wentworth holds very definite views on the subject of the training of boys for the Navy. But it has been possible to provide means for necessary naval construction only by the adoption for the time being of an altered system of training. I do not think that the honorable member fully appreciates the difference in mentality between the Australian and English youth. Whilst it may be necessary in Great Britain to catch boys very young, from- fourteen to fifteen years of age for training for the Navy, I do not think . that the same necessity exists in this country. Our youth aTe better developed, far better educated, and are drawn from a higher social class, living under better economic conditions than, speaking generally, the boys who are trained for service in the navy in the Old Country. The whole matter is under serious consideration, but I propose taking boys for training at a later age, and although they will be sent to Flinders they will not be allowed to associate either at mess or during training with the older men -there. I believe that the course I propose will meet the situation.- From the reports presented to me by my advisers, I have no hesitation in saying that. when between 1928 and 1929 our two modern cruisers, our modern sea-going submarines, and seaplane-carrier are completed the necessary personnel will be available to fully man these vessels. What is more important, from my point of view, is that .over 90 per cent, of it will be Australian-born.- We want something more than an Australian Navy in name. It must be composed of Australians, and will be entirely Australian when we are able to fill the higher ranks with boys who have gone through the Jervis Bay Naval College. Boys who have passed through that college and proceeded to England on the completion of their studies there have proved themselves most efficient, and in their subsequent training in England have not only held their own, but in many cases have surpassed lads trained in England. I do not wish to boast about our country, but I say that at no time has there been such progress made in connexion with its defence as there has been during the last two years. Whatever view we may hold concerning defence, we are all agreed as to the need for it until something is established to take its place. I hope that that will eventually be found in the development of the League of Nations; by the representation upon it of all countries in the world, and the exercise of its moral influence to prevent war in the distant future. We have not yet reached that day, and, in the meantime, it is our duty to be prepared to defend as effectively as possible this outpost of the Empire. The honorable member for Corio (Mr. Lister) and the honorable member for Wentworth have referred to the Public Works Committee, a body for which we all have the greatest respect, and whose work has been of great value to the Parliament. Whilst respecting the opinion of that committee as much as any other member of the committee, I have a duty to perform irrespective of its recommendation. I have to consider all that is connected with defence, and to urge the Treasurer (Dr. Earle Page) to find the means to give effect to what I believe to be the policy most vital to retain an effective defence. But there is no member of the committee who does not clearly recognize that it is not possible for us to defend this country against the attack of an enemy in the Pacific. We might hold off such an attack and protect Australia from invasion until the British Navy could come to our assistance. This country with a population of only 6,000,000 could not afford the expenditure necessary for its complete protection. I estimate that an expenditure of not less than £50,000,000 a year would be necessary for the next ten years to provide a defence to wholly protect Australia against any attacks from other countries bordering on the Pacific. Fortunately, there appears to be no likelihood of war in the Pacific. We are living on most amicable terms with our neighbours, but we must be in a position to defend ourselves if called upon to do so. I regret very much the necessity of curtailing any portion of the navy establishment, but some curtailment has been necessary, and I assure honorable members that the matter of naval training has been given very grave consideration. My own view is that it will be possible at the end of 1928-29 to re-introduce the system of boy training if it should then be found advisable or necessary. Tn view of the liberal way in which the Treasurer has met my demands for expenditure, I am not disposed to force upon him expenditure that is not absolutely necessary. In answer to the honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. E. Riley), I may be allowed to say that the department has adopted a very sympathetic attitude concerning rifle ranges and the interests of rifle associations. I shall look into the matter of the rifle range at Randwick. The Government has been asked by the State Governments to give up certain lands in its possession. Last year, after a great deal of pressure, it agreed to the transfer of the whole of the frontage to Oxford-street, Paddington, to the New South Wales Government. 4125 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - Nothing has been done to remove the buildings upon that property. 4125 KI7 0 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE - I have already informed the honorable member for South Sydney that it is not the Federal Government, but the State Government, that is holding up the work there. I have great hesitation in agreeing to give up land which, although it may not be required by the Defence Department to-day, possibly will be required for defence purposes within the next 100 years. 4125 KZA 0 0 WEST, John Edward Mr West - What position will the honorable gentleman occupy then? 4125 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - He will be in the air force then! 4125 KI7 0 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE - The policy I have adopted is to refuse to alienate federal property in the possession of the Defence Department. I have been prepared, as I did in connexion with a property in Western Australia, to lease it to the State Government for 99 years at a rental of ls. a year. If possible, I shall apply that principle at Randwick. It is always difficult, however, to dispossess people once they have established even a partial claim to an area of land. One body to whom I gave a 99-years' lease sent me a very plausible letter, saying that the land had been converted into recreation grounds, and that my approval was taken for. granted, because, as Minister, for Health, 1 would appreciate that the need for recreation was more urgent than the need for defence. Of course, public health and defence are interdependent, because, unless the community is healthy, it can neither develop nor defend its possessions. Honorable members, must agree that the estimates represent a considerable advance upon the provision made in previous years. They will observe also that almost the whole of the money is to be spent in Australia. My object is to strengthen the navy by fully equipping and efficiently maintaining the fleet which Parliament has authorized, so that, should the necesity for defending Australia arise, it may Worthily uphold the Anzac tradition. 4126 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr Lister - Has the Minister anything to say about the accommodation at Point Cook? 4126 KI7 0 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE - Having regard to the fact that the coroner's inquest on the recent fatality is proceeding, and that the whole matter is sab judice, it would be better to allow it to remain in abeyance until I am able to make a complete statement upon the defence estimates. 4126 KF9 Kalgoorlie ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN .- The amount provided in the Estimates for the civil aviation branch is £2,680, as compared with £4,200 last year. All honorable members, particularly the Minister for Defence, will agree that the proposed vote is a very small sum for such an important service. We all are agreed that Australia should be able to defend itself should the necessity arise; but, fortunately, as has been observed by several honorable members, so far as one can see ahead, this continent is in less danger of foreign aggression now than at any previous time in its history. The war risk, apparently, belongs to the remote future, but the bread-and-butter needs of the people are of immediate concern. Therefore, I again draw the attention of the Minister, who, I know, is sympathetic, to the need for providing a larger sum for the development of civil aviation. I have on many previous occasions urged the Government to agree to the extension of the aerial mail service from Derby to Wyndham. At present the Western Australian airways extend from Fremantle to Derby, a distance of 1,600 miles, and it is desired that the service should cover a further distance of 472 miles to Wyndham. At one time the annual cost of a weekly service from Derby to Wyndham was estimated :it £9,000 per annum, but, by the use of a smaller and more efficient type of aeroplane, that figure could be considerably reduced. Landing grounds were estimated to cost £3,200. Even those sums are small in comparison with the expenditure that has been incurred in the more thickly-populated parts of the continent. With the exception of Darwin, Wyndham is the most isolated settlement in Australia. It has a mail service every six weeks for eight months in the year, and for the remainder of the year a very irregular service, if any. Naturally, the Defence Department judges all civil aviation proposals in relation to their influence upon the defence of the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth Government regards the development of the remote portions of the continent as mainly the concern of the States; but I submit that a sparsely-settled area like the Kimberleys constitutes a menace to the whole of Australia. This Parliament has acknowledged that fact by paying large bounties to the Queensland sugar industry in order to encourage the settlement of white population in the north of that State. Such a development is highly desirable in the interests of the nation, but the present policy is responsible for ill-balanced development. North of the Tropic of Capricorn there are 6,000 white people on the western side of the continent, as compared with 180,000 on the eastern side. If the danger from the north, which the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Marks) thinks he foresees, should prove real, the weak spot in our ramparts will be the north-west of Western Australia. If landing grounds were established and a regular civil aviation service were conducted . along the coast, our aviators would acquire training and local knowledge which would be of immense advantage in the event of Australia being embroiled with another nation. So far as the Commonwealth's interest in it is concerned, the north-west might as well be part of the Chinese empire. To-day Malay poachers from the Dutch islands are gathering trepang off the north-west coast, and are treating it by boiling plants ashore. They carry on their operations month in and month out, but never within 100 miles of the ordinary tracks of steamers. The only wealth that is being won from the Kimberley coast is being taken by aliens without let or hindrance by what is supposed to be a sovereign Commonwealth. Some time ago, a young pearler saw a Malay lugger at work off the north-west coast. He boarded the vessel and compelled the Malay skipper to sign the log with an admission that he was engaged in taking trepang from Australian waters. I brought the facts under the notice of the then Minister for Trade and Customs, and, for all the interest he showed in the matter, this theft of marine wealth might as well have been occurring in Madagascar. The north-west coast is absolutely neglected by Commonwealth departments. What happens up there is not any Federal. Minister's " pigeon." I am sure that the Minister for Health will recognize that an aerial mail and passenger service is of the utmost importance to the health as well as to the defence of the north-west. The pathetic death of Lady Campbell illustrates the conditions there. This lady resided, with her husband and three children, at Waterloo station. She was preparing to leave for Wyndham - 164 miles distant - for her confinement when she suddenly became ill. A messenger was sent to Wyndham for a doctor, who set out at once on horseback, but arrived too late to save the life of the unfortunate woman. From the time the messenger left the station until the doctor arrived at the station eleven days elapsed. If the aeroplane service for which I am now pleading had been in operation two lives would have been saved. Surely the narration of this tragedy should be sufficient to convince the committee of the stern necessity for an aviation service in that distant part of the continent. Australia cannot afford to sacrifice the lives of people who are engaged in opening up the out-back areas. I confidently ask for the Minister's favorable consideration of the urgent request of the residents in the extreme north-west of the continent. 4127 F4U Capricornia 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE .- On several previous occasions I have brought under the notice of the Minister for Defence the need for the erection of an aerodrome at Rockhampton. It has been estimated that the 74 acres required for the aerodrome would cost about £3,170, plus the cost of preparing the area- £330- ^ making a total of £3,500. The Minister, in commenting upon that estimate, said, " As such a considerable expenditure is involved, I regret that the funds available for civil aviation services will not permit of any further action at present." An aerodrome at Rockhampton would be a tremendous aid to the development of civil aviation in Queensland. That city, which has a population of 26,000, is the chief city of- central Queensland, and is the port of a very rich pastoral, agricultural, and mining area. The residents of the back-country about Longreach, Clermont, Springsure, Rolleston, Barcaldine, Blackall, Winton, and Nebo would be served by the establishment of an aerodrome at Rockhampton, for they would be able to reach the city of Rockhampton by aeroplane. In the absence of an aerodrome at Rockhampton, it is impossible to develop civil aviation there. The only landing ground for an aeroplane is the race-course, on which there are so many obstacles that an aviator places his life in jeopardy if he attempts to land there, although some have successfully done so. The people of Rockhampton want an aerodrome where any aeroplane may land safely. The cost of £3,500 should not daunt the Minister, because it is a mere bagatelle by comparison with expenditure incurred by the Government to provide much less-needed facilities. When proposals for the construction of new railways are being considered, the question whether they will pay is not the only one to be studied. Railways are often built merely to open up new country. If the residents of the western part of Queensland, who, at the present time, are suffering from the effects of a drought, are to enjoy some of the amenities of life such as are enjoyed in the large centres of civilization, the Government must spend this sum of £3,500 to provide the proposed aerodrome. That would make it possible for the people of the western parts to travel to Rockhampton by aeroplane. A number of aeroplanes are operating in the back country of Queensland, and are becoming increasingly popular. I am pleased to say that up to date there has not been a serious accident with them. The Civil Aviation Department has been starved for funds. The expenditure in that department last year was approximately £131,000 - a truly niggardly amount for a great public department. I give the Minister for Defence credit for taking a live interest in .civil aviation ; he has been to the backblocks. and is aware of the disabilities of the settlers there. I hope that he will give to this . proposal the measure- of sympathetic consideration that its importance warrants, and will approve of it. I have not mentioned this matter during the last few months, because I have been waiting until the Estimates were brought forward. 4128 KI7 Calare NAT Minister for Defence 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE .-In reply to the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, I assure him that, although money for civil aviation is not included in the Works and Buildings Estimates, the appropriation of£250,000 agreed to by the Parliament a few weeks ago is available for the Minister to use if he considers that it would be justifiable to use it, or any portion of it, for civil instead of defence aviation. The matter of civil aviation is under discussion by the cabinet, and I shall outline the Government's policy, and give the committee all the information it desires, on matters connected with defence, when the Estimate's are under consideration. . Proposed vote agreed to. Department of Trade and Customs. Proposed vote- £10,380. 4128 KRD Ballaarat 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH .- The potato-growers of Australia have during recent years suffered from a succession of unprofitable seasons. The year before last . they had too good a crop, and potatoes were so abundant that in many places it was not profitable to dig and market them. Last year they had a fairly good season, and this year the average yield is about 2 tons to the acre, which will not compensate them for previous bad years. They receive little or no benefit from the protection policy of this country, although they are nearly all good protectionists. They grow a commodity for the sale of which they depend on' the home market. No potatoes are exported from this country, and the growers have unselfishly supported duties imposed with the object of establishing new industries. For many years they have contributed their quota to the establishment of other industries. During some seasons they may do well, but over the period of the last 30 years their business has not been a flourishing one. With a yield of only 2 tons to the acre, following upon bad seasons, the market is now being deluged with importations from New Zealand. There are two grounds of objection to those importations. First, there is the danger of potato disease being introduced. I have read that 25 tons of New Zealand potatoes have been condemned in Melbourne, and some time ago I asked the Minister whether any New Zealand potatoes had been condemned in Sydney.. I understand that inquiries are still in progress with a view to supplying me with an answer to that question. The danger of the introduction of the powdery scab disease cannot be overstated. Now that mining has almost ceased there, the city of Ballarat depends largely upon the primary producers' in the surrounding country, of whom there is no more important section than the potato-growers. If the disease obtained a hold in the potato-growing districts near Ballarat, business people would be almost ruined, apart from the ruin of the potato-growers themselves. It is, a remarkable fact that the only shipment of NewZealand potatoes to Melbourne was condemned, and that Melbourne is the only port in Australia where New Zealand potatoes have been condemned. It is safe to assume from those facts that there is laxity in examining the imports elsewhere. I ask the Minister not to be content with the examination made in New South Wales. It is an anomaly that, although the Commonwealth Government inspects everything else coming into the country, the inspection of potatoes is delegated to State officials. I do not wish to impute motives to any one; I merely state that the only shipment to Melbourne has been condemned, while many shipments to New South Wales have been accepted. I hope that the Minister will insist upon a rigid examination being made. Apart from the effect of the importations upon the price of potatoes, the existence of the potato-growing industry is threatened by the introduction of this disease. I turn from the introduction of diseased potatoes to mention the duty on potatoes. It is only once in several years that there is a shortage of supplies, and immediately that condition arises, there is no competition from abroad. The potato-growers have already asked for a duty of £4 a ton, and I hope that the Minister will expedite the hearing of their application by the Tariff Board. Evidence will be submitted showing the precarious position of many potato-growers. I hope that the Minister will instruct the board to attend to this matter at once, and make an early recommendation to Parliament. 4129 KMQ Perth 0 0 MANN, Edward Mr MANN .- I wish to direct attention to the recent action of the Minister by which the price of sugar in Western Australia was increased. I have arrived from Perth to-day, and I take this, the earliest opportunity I could get, of bringing the matter forward. Widespread indignation has been caused throughout Western Australia' by the increase in the retail price of sugar. The events leading up to the action by the Minister are important. Until the year 1922, when the sugar agreement was made, manufacturers and others in Western Australia bought sugar f.o.b. Adelaide, and were under a great disadvantage as to price. Under the agreement of 1922 provision was made for a flat rate in all the States. That agreement imposed upon Perth a disability that did not apply to the other capital cities. The flat rate in the other States applied to the capital cities, but in Western Australia it applied to Fremantle only. The consequence was that the manufacturers and the consuming public in the Perth district were placed under a grave disability. 4129 10000 0 0 RYRIE, Granville The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sir Granville Ryrie - I would remind the honorable member that the committee in dealing with the estimates of expenditure for additions, new works, buildings, &c. If he is allowed to discuss the price of sugar, the committee may be drawn into a debate on the general Estimates. 4129 KMQ 0 0 MANN, Edward Mr MANN - Is there any difference between discussing the price of sugar and discussing a disease in potatoes? The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Had the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) not concluded his remarks when he did, I should have called him to order. 4129 K1J Martin NAT Minister for Trade and Customs 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN . - I wish to inform the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) that I shall do my best to expedite the hearing of the application before the Tariff Board for an increase in the duty on potatoes. I wish to repudiate entirely the suggestion that the Minister is responsible for anything that has happened in Western Australia. 4129 KMQ 0 0 MANN, Edward Mr Mann - I rise to a point of order. I have been precluded from stating my case, and I wish to know whether the Minister is in order in attempting to reply. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The Minister is out of order in replying to the remarks of the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Mann). 4129 K1J NAT 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Mr PRATTEN - The position in Western Australia respecting the price of sugar has arisen entirely because of the greed of the retail grocers there. Proposed vote agreed to. Departmentof Health. Proposed vote, £41,385, agreed to. Departmentof Markets and Migration. Proposed vote, £3,000, agreed to. Territories of the Commonwealth. Proposed vote, £66,500. 4129 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY . - I wish to refer to the item, " Construction and filling of petrol tank," in relation to the Northern Territory. I have frequently said that every effort should be made to cheapen the cost of production in the north and north-west of Australia, and this can be brought about in the early stages at least by the Government facilitating and cheapening the supply of petrol and crude oil at the various ports of the north. I know that tanks have been erected at Darwin, but whether for petrol or crude oil, to. meet the requirements of the public, I do not know. It is time that we had that information. The other day I saw some small 450-gallon tanks at the works of the Commonwealth Oil Refineries Limited; and, if the people of the far north could obtain their petrol supplies in tanks of that capacity, it would be of tremendous assistance in helping the development of the country. Petrol is required for the motor car, the motor tractor, and, in many instances, for pumping plants. I should like to know what the Government intends to do to enable the people of the Northern Territory to obtain petrol and crude oil as cheaply as possible. 4129 JVT Northern Territory 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON . - I endorse the remarks of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory). The supply of petrol and crude oil will play an important part in the development of the Northern Territory. The rail freight on fuel oil to Oodnadatta is £19 9s. 5d. a ton, but the total cost of delivery at Alice Springs is £37 19s. 5d. a ton. This cost is prohibitive. Recently I had the pleasure of riding on a motor truck carrying 21/2 tons of merchandise and mails over indescribable tracks in the Northern Territory, and the speed at which it travelled was a revelation to me. In two days we travelled 300 miles. If the Government established facilities for the bulk handling of oil, say, at Port Augusta and at the railhead, much of the cost of bringing supplies from Melbourne would be eliminated. Recently the Commonwealth Oil Refineries Limited notified one of the largest consumers of petrol in the Territory that he must not increase his sales of Commonwealth Oil Refineries spirit. In effect, he was told that he had reached the maximum of his supplies. I am satisfied that the cost of petrol in the far north could be considerably reduced by establishing bulk depots at rail heads and northern ports. 4130 KHG Echuca CP Minister for Works and Railways 0 0 HILL, William Mr HILL .- On the 18th December, 1924, Cabinet approved of the establishment at Port Darwin of one 8,000-gallon crude-oil tank and one 450-gallon petrol tank, including pipe lines, distributing depots, excavations, foundations, &c. These are provided for the navy. Until two or three large tanks are established there, it will not be possible for the Government to consider providing petrol for private use. I realize the difficulties referred to by the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) and the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson). When I was in Central Australia, it was costing £17 a ton to take petrol from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs, and that was absolutely prohibitive. I have been in consultation with the Chief Commissioner of Commonwealth Railways on the matter, and inquiries have been made as to whether it would be possible to distribute petrol in small lots from Darwin southwards, but so far nothing definite has been done. It will be necessary, I think, to wait until the petrol tanks that are being constructed there are completed. This work is under the control of the Department of Works and Railways. It is estimated that the expenditure on it during the year 1926-27 will be £3,000, and that amount is being set aside for the purpose. The vote last year was £17,300. In view of the representations that have been made, I will bring the matter before the Government again to see whether, when the tanks are completed, it will be possible to supply petrol in small lots to graziers and others in the Northern Territory who need it. The investigation made up to date show that it would be expensive to operate a scheme of the kind ; but we may be able to find a way out of the difficulty. Proposed vote agreed to. Motion (by Sir Neville Howse) agreed to - That there be granted to His Majesty to the services of the year 1926-27, for the purposes of additions, new works, buildings, &c, a sum not exceeding £296,734. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted. Resolution of Ways and Means, based on resolution of Supply, reported and adopted. Ordered - That Dr. Earle Page and Sir Neville Howse do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by Dr. Earle Page and passed through all its stages without amendment or debate. 4130 bill In committee (Consideration of message from the Deputy of the Governor-General) : Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) agreed to- That it is expedient that an appropriation of moneys be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to authorize the raising and expending of certain sums of money. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted. Ordered - That Dr. Earle Page and Mr. Hill do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presented by Dr. Earle Page, and read a first time. 4131 4131 C7E Cowper CP Treasurer 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE . - I move - That the bill be now read a second time. This bill covers the loan programme for the year 1926-27, as recently submitted with the budget. The total of the loan estimates for Commonwealth works, &c, is £10,560,499. For the redemption of the Port Augusta to Oodnadatta railway loans, it is necessary to raise £90,340. It is proposed also that the Treasurer shall raise moneys required by the Federal Capital Commission. The amount to be provided this year is £2,000,000. The total of these items is £12,650,839. From this there may be deducted the sum of £1,000,000 required for the Grafton to South Brisbane railway, the raising and spending of which is authorized by the Grafton to South Brisbane Railway Act. The total requirements for Commonwealth works, for the Federal Capital Commission, and for redemption loans not otherwise authorized, are thus £11,650,839. This is the amount of the bill now before the committee, and full particulars are set out in the schedule. The chief items of expenditure included in the bill for Commonwealth works, &c, are - As already explained, the bill also includes £90,340 for loan redemption purposes, and £2,000,000 for the Federal Capital Commission. Honorable members are aware that the unexpended balances of revenue appropriations at the close of each financial year lapse. The unexpended balances of loan appropriations, however, do not lapse. As a result of this practice there was, until last financial year, a large accumulation of live loan appropriations, many of which could not be used. It was considered advisable to clear up the position by providing in the Loan Act of last year for the lapsing of the unexpended balances then existing under the usual annual loan appropriations of former years. At the same time, provision was made for the full amount of the loan expenditure of last year to be appropriated in the Loan Act of that year. It is proposed to continue this practice. In this way, each year's loan programme can be dealt with as a whole by Parliament when the annual Loan Bill is under consideration. In accordance with this practice, provision is made in the bill now before the committee for the lapsing of the unexpended balances of the appropriations made in last year's Loan Acts. In addition, authority is sought in this bill for the expenditure of the full amount of loan money required for the loan programme of this year. This provision regarding lapsing relates only to the appropriation of loan moneys; it does not relate to the authority given by existing Loan Acts for the borrowing of money. The effect of this is that authority still exists for certain moneys to be. borrowed under the Loan Act of last year, but moneys so borrowed can be spent only for the purposes set out in the bill now before the committee. Towards the programme of loan works for 1926-27 there is a considerable amount of loan money in hand or in sight. These moneys consist of the present loan fund balances and the amounts payable, up to September next, as instalments of the recent London loan of £6,000,000. It will suffice, therefore, if Parliament now gives authority for the Treasurer to borrow £3,500,000 for the purposes of the loan programme for 1926-27. It is not possible to state now the terms and conditions under which further moneys will be raised for works. I may say, however, that it has been definitely decided to borrow in Australia the sum of £2,000,000 required for the Federal Capital Commission. The time for the raising of this money has not yet been decided. This bill does not .provide for conversion or redemption, operations in respect of war loans. Authority for dealing with these conversion operations is contained in existing laws, and it is not necessary to include such redemption operations in the annual Loan Bill. The loan requirements under the migration agreements are not dealt with in this bill, but are provided for in the bill recently passed relating to development and migration. Any information required in regard to the works included in the Loan Bill will be furnished during the course of the debate. Mr. Mann. Is the Government now borrowing money for the purpose of redeeming loans? 4132 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE - That is so. For the redemption of most loans fresh sums are 'borrowed to replace the amount of the loans, less the sum that has been applied to the sinking fund. 4132 KEQ Riverina 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN .- Referring to the provision of £1,240,000 for railway construction in the Northern Territory and in the northern part of South Australia, I wish to inform the House that I recently travelled along the route of the overland telegraph line from Oodnadatta to the Katherine River, and thence proceeded to Darwin, thus following the proposed route of the north-south railway. I had a good deal of experience as a young man in developing country similar in quality to much of the land along that route. I spent some time in the north-western portion of New South "Wales in developing 250,000 acres of country that is very similar to a good deal of the land between Charlotte Waters and Alice Springs, and north of it. The country of which I had experience in New South Wales is similar to much of the land that I saw on the first 400 miles of my journey northward from the southern boundary of the Northern Territory. Later I had experience as the senior partner in a firm that developed a considerable tract of country in Queensland between Winton and Hughenden, which we fenced, watered, and stocked. This is precisely the same class of country as the Barkly Tablelands. The difference between the area in New South Wales, to which I have referred, and the southern part of the Northern Territory is that, while the former has a rainfall of about 11 or 12 inches per annum, the latter has a rainfall varying from 5^ to 8 inches per annum, little of the country having over 7 inches. I need hardly say that the rainfall makes a great difference in the stock-carrying capacity of the land. There is a tract of very bad to poor country, extending from Oodnadatta to within 50 miles of Newcastle Waters, with two or three patches of good to first class land. One of these patches was on the Burt Plain. It was about 4£ miles across, and was equal in quality to the Barkly Tablelands. Another was Maryvale, south of Alice Springs, and Glen Maggie, north of Alice Springs. The distance through those two patches would be from 30 to 35 miles, so that it may be said that in travelling for 700 miles I saw less than 50 miles of good land. Of this only 4£ miles was first class country capable of carrying a sheep to 2 or 3 acres, and the rest would possibly carry a sheep to 6 or 8 acres. The bulk of the land from Oodnadatta to within 50 miles of Newcastle Waters, with the exception of the patches I have mentioned, would not carry, on the average, more than one sheep to from 20 to 25 acres, or three cattle to the square mile. A good deal of it would not support more than one bullock to the square mile, although some of it would carry five or six to the square mile. On the return journey we travelled through the centre of the Barkly Tablelands, and practically the whole of that country is first class grazing country. I estimate that, when improved and watered, it will carry one sheep to 4 acres, or possibly one sheep to 3 acres. 4132 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - What area of such country would be the honorable member say there is on the Barkly Tablelands? 4132 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - The area of that country is, I should say, nearly as large as the State of Victoria. I think there must be from 35,000,000 to 40,000,000 acres of that country. That area can only be developed by railway construction to give access to the nearest ports, and if so developed it would carry from 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 sheep; and not less, in my opinion, than 10,000,000 sheep. There is another area which I did not see, but about which I obtained full information from several people, and that is the country west of Barkly Tablelands to the Victoria River, and extending from there into Western Australia. There is between the Barkly Tablelands and the area on the Victoria River something like -100 miles of ordinary cattle country to be crossed. If a railway were constructed from Camooweal through the Barkly Tablelands to Newcastle Waters,, it would, I have no doubt, not immediately, but later on, be extended through the Victoria River country to one of the ports in Western Australia - either Wyndham, Derby, or Broome. In my opinion, such a line is the only one that would properly develop the whole of that rich area of country. I take it that honorable members are agreed that one of the most important matters with which this Parliament has to deal is the development and peopling of the Northern Territory. It is intimately bound up with the defence of the Commonwealth and the maintenance of the White Australia policy. I assume that honorable members will also agree that the right thing to do is to develop first, the good country, and not the bad country. The country from Oodnadatta to within 50 miles of Newcastle Waters is nearly all bad or poor country. 4133 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - Did the honorable member go east and west of the line? 4133 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - No. I am assuming that what I saw was about the average of the country east and west of the line. I believe that it is so, and I asked a good many questions on the subject. Some people told me that if I had gone off the line I would have seen better country, but others told me that if I had gone off the line, in other places I would have seen worse country. It will be generally admitted that it would be an extraordinary thing if the telegraph line, which we followed, and along which it is proposed the railway should be constructed, should go through only the bad country, and that the country on both sides of the line should be better. The question is whether this Parliament will agree to spend £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 on the first section of the railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs. 4133 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - Parliament has already agreed to the construction of that line. 4133 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - I do not know whether it is possible for Parliament to reconsider its decision in that regard. Perhaps it is not, and if so it is very disappointing ' to know that the money spent upon the construction of the line will be practically wasted. ' If it were spent in developing the Barkly Tablelands we should have some result from it. We should be able to settle a number of prosperous settlers in that country. It would be stocked within a very short time, and after the construction of a railway would carry 10,000,000 sheep or more. A railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs will do practically nothing in the way of settling the country through which it will go. I estimate that that country, with 'the exception of the three patches of good country to which I have referred, is so poor that it would take from 150,000 acres to 200,000 acres to give a decent living to one family. We have a railway now to Oodnadatta, and a train once a fortnight is sufficient to cope with all the traffic there. If the line is continued for 300 miles further north, I do not think it will be necessary to run more than one train a month to carry the traffic offering. We are going to spend between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000 on this line to attain this result. It will settle few, if any, people on the land. We have a line now from Darwin to the Katherine River, in length about '200 miles, and its construction has done very little indeed to bring about settlement. Very large tracts of country are still unoccupied along one side of the railway, although the line may be said to go through country quite as good as the bulk of that through which a railway from Oodnadatta to 50 miles south of Newcastle Waters would pass. If the railway from Darwin to Katherine River has not brought about settlement, what reason have we to think that the extension of the Oodnadatta railway through similar country will have a different . result ? 4133 KMQ 0 0 MANN, Edward Mr Mann - Would not that' railway connect the country with the Adelaide market ? 4133 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - Transport backwards and forwards between the cattle stations would be the only traffic offering for the line. I do not think it would pay any man to fatten cattle on that country and send them to Adelaide by rail. The charges now are so high from Oodnadatta to Adelaide that it is only when the Adelaide market is very good that even prime fat cattle can be sent to that market by rail. Cattle from 300 or 500 miles further north would not be sent by rail to the Adelaide market unless prices offering were exceptionally high. People will travel their cattle, rather than truck them from that distance. I am unable to see how the construction of the proposed line north from Oodnadatta is going to be of any benefit to Adelaide. If the rivers and creeks were bridged, or some means provided to enable them to be crossed by motor traffic, the building of a good road over that country would,' in my opinion, be of quite as much advantage to the few settlers there as would be the construction of the railway. 4134 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - How would the honorable member get cattle in or out of that district in drought time without a railway 1 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - I do not think that it would pay any one to send cattle by rail through Alice Springs in drought time or any other time. The freight to Adelaide would be something like £4 or £5 per head. 4134 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - Nothing like so much. 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - The road, as it stands, is fairly good. If the rivers and creeks were bridged and a few patches where there are loose sand-hills were made passable by a corduroy road, that would be all that is necessary, and the cost involved would be infinitesimal compared with the cost of the railway. In my opinion, to build a railway right through from the south to the north through the Northern Territory will cost anything from £15,000,000 to £20,000,000, whilst a good road through the whole district might be constructed for £1,000,000, or less. The greater part of the road is already made, and the bad parts of it could be improved by comparatively little expenditure. 4134 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - What about the mineral possibilities of the country? 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - There are mineral possibilities, certainly, but I assume that no honorable member will contend that we should build a railway right through that country on the chance of discovering some rich mines. I do not think that would be a business proposition. I discussed the building of the railway and the quality of the country with a number of residents in the Northern Territory. One man, who has been there for 40 years, at Charlotte Waters, assured me that they only get one good season out of three; and that statement was confirmed by others whom I met. 4134 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - Where? 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - In the country for about 500 miles north of Oodnadatta. The settler to whom I referred told me that the rainfall was about 5£ inches per annum. He said that if they could depend upon getting that rainfall every year in two falls, they could manage to get along; but, unfortunately, there is only about 2-J to 3 inches of effective rainfall, and the balance of the annual fall comes in small falls of 10 or 20 points that do not do any good at all. 4134 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - Did the honorable member take the trouble to look at the sheep at Charlotte Waters? 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - I looked at the sheep at Brunette Downs, but I do not think there were any sheep at Charlotte Waters, although I have admitted that the Charlotte Waters country is good sheep country. One has to travel something like 700 miles from Oodnadatta to get to the good country. What is proposed is that we should build a railway for 700 miles through bad country; with the exception of 40 miles of country most of which is only fair ,and only one small patch which can be called first-class country. In my opinion, the right thing for Parliament to do would be to develop the Barkly Tablelands first. To do that it would be necessary to build a line from Borroloola, a port on the Gulf of Carpentaria. Some expenditure would be required at the port to accommodate deep-sea shipping, but it would not be very much. 4134 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - It would be a very expensive harbour. 4134 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - Its improvement would be necessary, but I am advised that that would not involve a great deal of expenditure. Ships call at the port now, and goods are taken to and from them in lighters; and that would be good enough for a time. A railway from Borroloola to tap the Barkly Tablelands would be about 130 miles long. That is the first work that should be undertaken. The Government should construct first the 35 miles from Borroloola, which' at present is impracticable for motor traffic. That section could then connect with good roads, which would serve the settlers until the line was extended to the centre of the Barkly Tableland to connect ultimately with the main railway from Camooweal to Newcastle Waters. Expenditure upon that scheme would bc much saner than the sinking of large sums of money in the construction of the north-south railway. I do not desire to repudiate any agreement made by the Commonwealth with the State of South Australia, but the agreement does not specify any time within which the north-south railway must be built. The duty of Parliament is to develop the good country first, and the poorer country later, if circumstances justify a large expenditure upon it. I do not know why people have settled in the centre of Australia; but as they were encouraged by successive governments to go there, this Parliament has a responsibility to provide them with decent, well-watered roads. The Government should at the earliest possible date make the road for the whole distance from Oodnadatta to Darwin passable for motor traffic. That could be done at comparatively small cost. 4135 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr Lacey - The road would compete with the railway when it was constructed. 4135 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - The South Australian representatives may be opposed to my suggestion; but leading men in that State with whom I discussed this matter agreed that the north-south line will be a white elephant. Those who have taken the trouble to ascertain the facts know that it will not be the benefit to South Australia that some people expect, and that, on the contrary, the taxpayers of the Commonwealth will have to pay heavily for the enormous losses that it is certain to make. Having seen the country, I am satisfied that the losses will be far heavier than have been estimated. Before I undertook this trip I was prepared to support the north-south railway, but what I saw along the route compelled me to change my opinion. Any practical man who is a judge of the quality of country for pastoral purposes could not help coming to the conclusion that the railway will incur heavy losses for the next 50 years at least. I doubt whether a railway over the first 600 miles north of Oodnadatta will, ever be profitable. The money that will be sunk in it could be spent with greater advantage on the good portions of the Territory, and, manifestly, that is the right policy to adopt. Even at this stage Parliament should pause before it votes money for even the Oodnadatta to Alice Springs section. I am sure that if the line is proceeded with people will declare in a few years that it should never have been built, and that the money spent upon it has been wasted. 4135 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr Perkins - What is the honorable member's view of the railway from a defence point of view? 4135 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - If military experts declare that it is necessary for the defence of Australia, I shall not say a word against it; but I believe that motor traffic would meet the requirements of defence as well as, or better than, a railway. 4135 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - The military experts support the eastern route across the Barkly Tableland. 4135 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - Yes; and I am certain that a line connecting up with .the Queensland system, crossing the Barkly Tableland to Darwin, and ultimately joining up with the Western Australian system, will be a better aid to the defence of the country than will the north-south railway. 4135 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - What is the rainfall on the Barkly Tableland? 4135 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - It varies from 13 to 16 inches. I believe the average is about the same as on the Queensland Downs, between Longreach and Hughenden, but the rain comes more regularly, and a drought is seldom experienced. 4135 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - The rainfall is less variable on the Barkly Tableland. 4135 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - Yes, and the country is quite as suitable for sheep as land in Central Queensland that has been profitably grazed for many years past. If the railway were constructed across the Barkly Tableland - and it could be done cheaply, because there are no engineering difficulties - and the country within 20 or 30 miles of the line were subdivided into 20,000-acre blocks, and the country further out into 30,000-acre blocks, it would be rushed by selectors. 4136 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - This Parliament made certain that that would not happen when it passed the Northern Territory Administration Act. 4136 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - When the railway is built, any country that is required for closer settlement can be resumed by the payment of compensation to the holders of long leases. An expert commission would assuredly advise the Government that the country along the eastern route should be developed by railway construction, and that money should not be squandered on the very inferior country along the central route. 4136 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - Does the honorable member refer to the Macdonnell Ranges 4136 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - That is second class country. 4136 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - How much of it did the honorable member see? 4136 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - What I saw is, I am told, average country. It will not carry more than a sheep to 10 or 12 acres, which is a light carrying capacity. I had expected to see exceptionally good country about Alice Springs; hut, although it is better than the areas north and south of that settlement, and has a rainfall of about 11 inches, much of it is hilly and rough, and the average is only of second class grade. The Emily Plain, to the south of Alice Springs, was much commended, but there, again, I saw only second class country. I was told that the Burt Plains comprised a very fine area of 200 miles east and west by a depth of 90 miles, but when travelling through the area I was wondering when we would reach the good part. The best of, it, with the exception of a patch, 4^ miles ; wide, previously referred "to, is second class, and the worst, comprising spinifex and shifting sand-hills, is not better than fifth class. It will be an absolute tragedy if this Parliament expends millions of pounds upon the construction of a railway through that area, and leaves good country elsewhere undeveloped. In travelling, through the Northern Territory, I had no axe to grind ; ' my only object was to judge for myself which of the conflicting opinions regarding the value of the country was right. . Some people declared that it. was first class, and could carry a large white population, and that if it were not settled and populated speedily our ambitious and enterprising neighbours to the north would take it from us. Others declared that the country was a wilderness, and that the less money we spent on it the wiser we would be. My personal investigation convinced me that neither opinion was right. The worst of the country is not a wilderness. There is no desert country, but much of the land is so sparsely grassed that it would carry only one beast to the square mile. Country of that quality is almost a desert. It is not capable qf being even reasonably thickly populated. . I give great credit to the people who are living there; they deserve every consideration from the Government, and every facility that can be provided for them. The first thing to give them is a reasonably good road; and I hope that the Government will provide that for them. 4136 KFP Wakefield 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER .- I recommend the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) to read a letter written to one of the Adelaide newspapers by Mr. Giles, a man who has - been esteemed throughout the Northern Territory as a pastoralist for 40, if not 50, years. He read the casual statements of the honorable member, who admits that he travelled only along the route of the telegraph line. Mr. Giles says that in looking for a route for the telegraph line the surveyors must have selected the most barren and worthless part of the country. The construction of that telegraph line was one of the most remarkable achievements by a small State in the history of the world. The route chosen was the easiest and most direct, and. in travelling along it - and, indeed, in travelling along most of the railways of Australia - one does not see the richest parts of the country. The railways of every State pass through a lot of poor country, and generally not through even average country. Mr. Giles is one of the whitest and most honoured men that ever went into the Northern Territory, and when the honorable member for Riverina' reads his column letter he will blush from the top of his head to his toes ; and that will be more than a 6-foot blush; The honorable member did not see for himself, but he took his opinions' from -persons he met on the route.. 4136 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Not at all. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I ask honorable members whether he did not give them that impression. He said that he' took the direct route, and that he obtained his impressions of the country, except a strip of the Barkly Tablelands, which he could not miss seeing, from others. 4137 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - Has the honorable member ever been to the Territory? 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - No; but I have many times been through a lot of the country described by the honorable member for Riverina, and I shall tell honorable members about it. If I did go through the Territory, God forbid that I, as a responsible member of this House, should tell such a tale as the honorable member has told ! He said, " I was told so," and " I was told so," all through his speech. 4137 JZK 0 0 COLEMAN, Percy Mr Coleman - He is a pastoralist. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I know he is a pastoralist, and that is why I am so astounded at his reckless statements. 4137 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - If the honorable member would go and look at the country, he would tell the same tale. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER -With his long experience, the honorable member ought to have sense enough to admit that neither he nor any one else is familiar with the character of all the different parts of even his own State. I shall pithily state a few facts, and then ask him whether he thinks he has done good by making such slanderous statements about this part of the country after an "inspection" which he never made. He dealt first with the Oodnadatta country, and in that connexion I want to give honorable members an idea how mischievous his misrepresentations may be, because persons outside this House take statements by honorable members at their face value. The honorable member said, " There is a train once a fortnight," but he should . have said, " There is a passenger train once a fortnight." I shall tell the House what trains there are, and have been for the last 30 years. The cattle season, in good years, is a peak period on the railway. The traffic has dwindled to small dimensions to-day, but it is beginning to improve, because the drought is over. In good seasons, for five, six, or seven months in the year, the line supplies the Melbourne and Adelaide markets with beef. 4137 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - And there is one good season in three. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - It also largely supplies the Adelaide market all the year round. For five or six months in the year there are trains night and day, at the end of every week, and during that busy period as many as twenty-five sets of men, and numbers of engines and other rollingstock, on occasions are commandeered from other lines. 4137 JZK 0 0 COLEMAN, Percy Mr Coleman - What are the profits of the line? 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - One profit is that the line keeps the beef market throughout Australia fairly steady. Without it no one knows what the workers, whom the honorable member represents, would have to pay for meat. The honorable member for Riverina has said that there is one good season in three ; but there is only one good season in three in many of the occupied parts of Queensland and New South Wales. 4137 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - But there is a better rainfall there. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - There is not a better rainfall there. 4137 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - They have no railways. 4137 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - Many of the railways they have do not pay. The honorable member knows nothing of the Oodnadatta country. How can he have any knowledge of it, considering where his experience has been gained? He is an old experienced squatter, and he has stated opinions contrary to those held by the Pastoral Association of South Australia. I challenge him to ascertain the views of the Pastoral Association of Queensland. Let me give him a true bill. The drought of 1896 was probably the worst drought that Australia has ever experienced; it affected nearly the whole of this continent; but at that time Oodnadatta was' a perfect paradise, . with feed 3 feet high. It was my privilege, on behalf of the South Australian Government, to go to that part of the State, and, with the police officers and their black boys, to inspect it to find pasturage for farmers' working horses. The result was that no fewer than 7,000 working draught horses were transferred to that part of the country, and they were returned to their farms the next year very fat. Not one of them would have been left had they remained in the agricultural part of South Australia. That is the country that my honorable friend refers to as " a desert." It certainly is dry country. 4138 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - With under 5 inches of rainfall. 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - Under 5 inches of rainfall is a good rainfall in many pastoral parts of this country. The honorable member comes from a good rainfall area, and misleads the House. I look upon him with compassion, for when he thinks over this matter he will realize that he has made a great mistake. Admittedly, it is dry country, but the honorable member wishes this House to believe that similar dry conditions exist for another 700 or 800 miles northwards. That is absolutely contrary to fact. I wish to quote other authorities in opposition to the honorable member. One of them is Mr. Manifold, of the Western District of Victoria. Is he not a practical man? 4138 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Did he go over all this part of the country? 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - He went over twenty times as much as did the honorable member. He took with him a fellow squatter of the Western District, Mr. Campbell, and the then proprietor of Kirk's Bazaar, a man who has made considerable wealth from his business, and knows a good deal about stock. That party, unlike the honorable member for Riverina, did not follow the telegraph line, but spent six weeks examining the country adjacent to Alice Springs. The rainfall there is from 10 to 22 inches. After a close examination the members of the' party concluded that it was the finest horse-breeding and pastoral country that they had seen. 4138 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr Lister - Did they ever select any of it? 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - They, having made their fortunes, had no reason to select it. 4138 L1J 0 0 LISTER, John Mr Lister - No man is so rich that he does not wish for more. 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I leave other honorable members and the general public to judge the honorable member's interjections. During the worst drought that South Australia had experienced for 35 years, there was plenty of feed at Alice Springs. The representatives of the Imperial and Indian Governments who from time to time visit Australia to purchase horses know all about that country. They say that it breeds the finest remounts in the world; in fact, the horses there have legs like whalebone. That country saved South Australia during . a financial crisis. If South Australia had had the means the Northern Territory would have been developed years ago. 4138 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - It was lucky for South Australia that the Commonwealth took over the Territory. 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I cannot understand why an honorable member engaged in pastoral pursuits should misrepresent the facts about the Northern Territory. His opinion is valueless. 4138 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr Prowse - The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) knows more about the pastoral industry than the honorable member does. 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I know more about that country than the honorable member for Forrest does. He is a shrewd insurance agent. I should hesitate to accept his advice, but it would be preferable to that of the honorable member for Riverina. That honorable member stated that the dry country surrounding Oodnadatta was not a desert, but I say that it is at times. There are lots of deserts in Australia, including Queensland. No pastoralist, just because he loses from . 50,000 to 70,000 sheep through drought, abandons his holding. The Macdonnell Ranges is the best horse-breeding country in the world, according to eminent authorities from India and Great Britain. If the honorable member had searched the records of the production of the district between Oodnadatta and Alice Springs, and had read the opinions of eminent pastoralists, he would not have attempted to deceive honorable members with his fairy tales. 4138 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - I have spent years developing the. same class of country in New South Wales and Queensland. 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - If that is so, the honorable member ought to be ashamed of himself. It is my bounden duty to expose his misrepresentation of the facts concerning the Northern Territory. 4138 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - Where did the honorable member gain his experience of pastoral country? 4138 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - I had 40 years' experience in South Australia. I know all about the ups and downs of the pastoral industry there. Some 35 years ago I helped to pass legislation through the South Australian Parliament to establish the pastoral industry, by making available grants for wire netting to keep down the ravages of wild dogs. We never begged for wire netting. The South Australian Government lent money to buy wire netting, and it was brought out in ships' bottoms at ballast rates, and settlers repaid principal and interest. The solidarity of South Australia to-day is evidence of what that State knows of the back country and the proper method of developing it. 4139 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - That is the best argument that the honorable member has used. 4139 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - That State set an example that could, with advantage, be followed by the other States. I am glad to be able to expose the fallacy of the statement of the honorable member for Riverina. Mr. Giles, to whom I have frequently referred, is a man of whom the people of South Australia are proud. The Territorial Association there has 300 members, all of whom are most enthusiastic. 4139 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - How many of them have seen the Territory ? 4139 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr FOSTER - Most of them. At its next meeting I shall make known the honorable member's description of the Territory. I hope that my speech this afternoon will do much to counteract the harmful influence which the honorable member for Riverina has attempted to exercise inside and outside this chamber, respecting the urgent need to develop the Northern Territory. 4139 K4Y Herbert 0 0 NOTT, Lewis Dr NOTT . - I listened with interest to the remarks of the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) and his eulogistic references to Mr. Giles, and also to the instructive speech of the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen), to whom honorable members are greatly indebted. At considerable personal inconvenience, he undertook to examine the conditions of the Northern Territory, and he came back with valuable and first-hand information. The honorable member for Wakefield took the honorable member for Riverina to task somewhat severly for referring to the unsuita'bility of the country north of Oodnadatta for pastoral purposes ; but - he himself in his criticism did not indicate the source of his own information, except that it came from some mysterious individual of the name of Giles. 4139 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - I have quoted his opinions in this Parliament for the past ten years. 4139 K4Y 0 0 NOTT, Lewis Dr NOTT - The House would be well advised to consider the opinions of the honorable member for Riverina. He has undoubtedly gone to considerable trouble to gather valuable information. The House has voted certain moneys for building railways, and if it were possible to reconsider the position, I should strongly advocate the expenditure of money to develop pastoral country, such as the Barkly Tablelands, avoiding altogether any expenditure on country which the honorable member for Wakefield has described as a desert. It is quite possible that the honorable member for Riverina followed the telegraph track, which is, as has been suggested, the ordinary stock route; and although the land along that route may differ from some on each side of it, it would certainly enable one to form some idea of the country generally. The honorable member for Riverina, with his long experience of the pastoral industry, would be well fitted to sift and analyse the opinions given to him by the people living in the district. 4139 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - The honorable member for Riverina, on his so-called tour of inspection, was accompanied by four ladies, and the trip was made as quickly as possible. 4139 K4Y 0 0 NOTT, Lewis Dr NOTT - That may be so. and I shall deal with that matter in a moment. It has been said that we should honour the agreement between the Commonwealth and South Australia. I am quite willing to honour that obligation, but there is no urgency for the construction of the north-south railway. Our first duty, I submit, is to develop the most valuable land in the Territory, and until we have ' done that, we should not embark upon extravagant expenditure to develop country which, in the opinion of many capable judges, will never be worth very much. If the country from Borroloola,' down to the Barkly Tablelands, and across to Camooweal were provided with a railway as suggested by the honorable member for Riverina, some splendid areas would be opened up for settlement. Seeing that the honorable member for Riverina is a good judge of the value of pastoral land, it is significant that he . estimated that the Macdonnell Range country would not carry one sheep to 10 acres. There is a nigger in this wood pile. The honorable member for Angas (Mr. Parsons) suggested, by a question that he asked to-day, that the Government should almost indecently hasten the construction of the line from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs. We can quite understand the sentiments of honorable members from South Australia in regard to this matter, but that should not cause us to neglect our duty to develop our best country first. I know of large areas that should be opened up long before the Northern Territory is touched. 4140 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - Where are they? 4140 K4Y 0 0 NOTT, Lewis Dr NOTT - In Central and Western Queensland. They would be tapped by a railway running from the Barkly Tablelands through Camooweal to the terminus of one of the existing Queensland lines. The lives of 7,000,000 sheep in that country could have been saved had facilities been available for removing them during the recent drought to other parts of Queensland where feed and water were available. The very fact that so many sheep were there is evidence of the carrying capacity of the country. Some of the finest sheep in Australia are bred there. Although I do not claim to speak with special knowledge of the Northern Territory, I have taken every opportunity to converse with people who are well acquainted with it by having lived in it for very many years, and also with people who have lived in parts of Queensland that are similar to the Northern Territory. It was a pleasure to me to hear the honor-: able member for Riverina speak so frankly, and I am sure that when the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) has had time for reflection, he will be the first to admit the truth of the sentiments that were expressed. 4140 KXR Angas 0 0 PARSONS, Walter Mr PARSONS . - I have no doubt that the honorable member for Riverina was honest in the view that he expressed,- but it must be patent to us all that it is impossible for any one to base a reliable opinion of the Northern Territory on a flying trip through it such as he 'has just made. He travelled' along, the telegraph line, and saw the country at the end of one of the most disastrous droughts it has known. 4140 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - The country was looking splendid. 4140 KXR 0 0 PARSONS, Walter Mr PARSONS - If it was looking splendid two months after the break of the drought, what will it look like in another twelve months? The honorable member could have seen very little country sitting in a motor car, yet he admitted that he saw some fine strips of land running east and west. In that case, it would surely be reasonable for us to suppose that there is equally good land which the honorable member did not see running north and south. I regret that this matter has been introduced just as South Australia, after many years of waiting, is about to have her patience rewarded by the Commonwealth fulfilling, at least in part, its contractual obligations to her. But, in spite of the honorable member's remarks, I do not for a moment consider that honorable members in this chamber or in another place will reverse their vote for the construction of the Oodnadatta to Alice Springs railway. To do so would be to say, in effect, to the world, "We are such absolute idiots that, although we have just passed a bill authorizing an expenditure of £1,700,000 on a railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs, we intend to reverse our decision because one of our members, who has taken a flying trip through the country, does not think it is worth a railway." 4140 KLG 0 0 MAHONY, William Mr Mahony - When was the honorable member for Angas last through the country ? 4140 KXR 0 0 PARSONS, Walter Mr PARSONS - I lived for six years at Darwin and other places as far south as Pine Creek. With all due respect to the honorable member for Riverina, I intend to pin my faith to the views of men who have lived the greater part of their lives in the Northern Territory, raised families there, seen the varying seasons over a long period of years, and have such unlimited faith in it that they have established their sons there. The honorable member said that he had- conversed with leading men in Adelaide who had confirmed his view that the country in the southern part of the Northern Territory was of no value. I should like to know the names, of some of those gentlemen, although I shall not ask the honorable member to publish them, for that might make it necessary for them to leave South Australia. South Australians, I may tell the honorable member, do not run down their own country or foul their own nest. They have unbounded confidence in the future of their State. It is regrettable that so many Australians can be found who will at any time decry their own country. Only a single word need be said to some people about the Northern Territory to cause them to cry " stinking fish " in a loud voice, and win applause from the crowd for doing so. We should be developing a race of bigger Australians, and honorable members of this Parliament should set an example. To hear some people' discuss the Northern Territory, one would think that it was a more hopeless desert than the Sahara. A good deal of country in the United States of America is similar to the poorer areas in the Northern Territory, but we do not hear the Americans condemning it. They lose no opportunity of telling us that the United States of America is God's own country. We should take a leaf out of their book. If we condemn our country, who will praise it? Although the honorable member for Riverina said by interjection a few moments ago that the drought-stricken country that he passed through was looking splendid, I assure him that it was nothing like so luxuriant as it will be in a few. months' time. It needs two or three rains to bring it into its prime. When people who have seen it at its best have described it to those who live in the settled areas, they have been disbelieved. In my opinion, the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) has a better knowledge of the Northern Territory than any other honorable member of this Parliament. He certainly knows very much more about it than the honorable member for Riverina who has merely made a flying trip through it. I suggest that the honorable member for Riverina should suspend his judgment' for twelve months, and then make another trip through it. I feel sure that he would then admit the truth of the old adage, " Second thoughts are best ". 4141 JVT Northern Territory 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON . - I must express a certain amount of admiration for the honorable member for Riverina for expressing his opinion so candidly. Knowing the vast area of the Northern Territory as I do, I was not surprised to hear his conclusions. It must not be understood that he has totally condemned the Territory, for he said quite frankly that some of the land in the eastern districts of it are equal to the best land in Queensland, and that there are large areas of first class country in its western districts. But his conclusions in regard to the southern areas are, in my opinion, quite erroneous, though he is not by any means the first pastoralist to express such views on a first impression. I feel sure that he, like many others, will alter his views after he has had more experience of the country. The honorable gentleman travelled over a stock route that is traversed by thousands of cattle every year, and is kept in a practically eaten-out condition; and he could have had little opportunity to inspect the country either to his right or left. In brief, his view is that the country in the north, east, and west of the Territory is good, but that that' in the south is not worth the expenditure of public money on it. I have pointed out in this chamber on many occasions that it is impossible for any one to pass reliable judgment on the Territory without a much wider experience of it than can possibly be gained in one brief visit. My first impression of Central Australia was similar to that formed by the honorable member. When I went along the route of the overland telegraph line, I thought it was remarkable that cattle could exist there, but since that time I have availed myself of opportunities to inspect the country for 100 miles or so east and west of that route. When one reaches the sloping country back from the telegraph line, magnificent land is found. Only recently I was at a station that breeds horses that are averaging £38 a head on the Adelaide, market. Will any honorable member suggest that horses commanding that price are not of high quality? In my opinion, Central Australia is quite suitable for the raising of sheep and cattle. Although I realize that it will not be possible to run two or three sheep to the acre, my experience of the country enables me to estimate its carrying capacity as, roughly, one sheep to 6 or 3 acres. Some of the land will carry five or six head of stock to the square mile, and it would be fair to say that it would take one sheep to 5 or 6 acres. It must also be remembered that there are tremendous areas where the breeding of cattle, horses, or sheep can be carried on even in drought periods. I was in Central Australia in November last, before the last drought broke up, and, although the conditions in the northern portions of South Australia were most deplorable, cattle dying in all directions, I did not see one beast in Central Australia that could be described as being in poor condition. This was due to a superabundance of top feed and supplies of sub-artesian water at shallow depths. I do not suggest that this country is the garden of Australia, but I realize that it is capable of producing great wealth in sheep, horses, and cattle, to say nothing of its immense mineral possibilities. I had the pleasure, a couple of weeks ago, of being on what is regarded as an exceedingly small run in Central Australia; its area is something :like 150 square miles. The owner has wisely sacrificed numbers for quality in the breeding of his stock. He has good horses and cattle, and he is getting better financial returns than other land-holders whose runs range up to 2,000 square miles. 4142 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - That argument applies in many parts of Australia. 4142 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Yes. So successful has this owner been that in the next few years he will be able to retire. Recently he sent fourteen Clydesdale horses to market, and received as much for them as was paid for a whole trainload of horses dispatched from another station. This shows the false economy practised on some of the big holdings, where quality is sacrificed for quantity. The honorable member for Riverina had a better opportunity of inspecting the northern than the southern portion of the Territory. When passing through the southern part he proceeded along the stock route without deviating east or west. 4142 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - I also followed the stock route in the north. 4142 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - But there the honorable member travelled east and west to the Barkly Tablelands. Although the honorable member praised that country, I am inclined to think that Central Australia is more suitable for the small man who intends to raise sheep. The Barkly Tablelands are admittedly rich in Flinders and Mitchell grasses, and are supplied with sub-artesian water at depths varying from 200 to 300 feet; but they do not contain a stick of timber. The honorable members knows that, when one crosses that belt on horseback, one is unable for hundreds of miles to find sufficient wood to boil a "billy." It is true that those tablelands are on the edge of the monsoonal belt, and get some rain every year, which cannot be said of Western Queensland ; but I have known periods when the grass there was rank in some places and dead in others, and when there was no top feed for cattle, as there always is in Central Australia. A hundred miles east of Alice Springs one sees the " old man " salt bush growing to a height of from 15 to 20 feet over large areas. During the recent drought - the most severe experienced in the last 30 years - stock was kept fat on the run recently visited by me. The honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) and the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart) recently visited this area, and can bear testimony to the truth of the statement that within six weeks of the time when rain fell there recently, prime cattle were sold at Alice Springs at £7 10s. a head. I submit that that is a far better price than is obtained at the northern end of the Territory, where it was recently boasted that £5 a head had been received. I do not suggest that the honorable member for Riverina had an ulterior motive when he spoke as he did this afternoon ; on the other hand , I feel" disposed to applaud him for having had the courage to express his opinion on the country as he saw it. It is most unfortunate, however, that he did not have an opportunity to visit the pick of Central Australia, east and west of the overland telegraph route. Being a pastoralist, he naturally paid most attention to the pastoral possibilities of the Territory; but the promise of success in mining operations should not be overlooked. A week or two ago I inspected various mineral deposits that have been opened up within the last few years. If " shows " not half .as good as these were located in the southern States, hundreds of men would be employed on them; but under present conditions the properties are almost unworkable, particularly base metal propositions. A large capital expenditure is required for the establishment of the necessary plant and for "the carting of flux, coke, and other material required for the treatment of the ore. The railway to be built in the Territory will assist these base metal propositions. I have seen the "shows" of which the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) spoke. I think that I can say, advisedly, that I know a good deal about Central and Northern Australia, because I have travelled hundreds of miles off the beaten tracks. The honorable member is interested in a. silver lead mine, which, if it were located in almost any other part of Australia, would command unlimited capital. Personally, I would not care to invest money in such a venture under existing conditions, because of the isolated position of the field and the high cost of carting mining requisites. I recently inspected the White Range country, where the hills average from 400 to 500 feet in height, are 2 or 3 miles wide, and 7 or 8 miles long. According to assays made by Government officials, the whole of these hills would yield an average return of 8 dwt. of gold to the ton. There is no mine on the Rand in South Africa to compare with this field, and there are others equally rich. The further one goes towards the Tanami district the more promising the prospects become. I am confident that when the railway is extended to Alice Springs, and the carriage of mining machinery is facilitated, there will be the biggest "strike" of gold in the western part of the Territory that Australia has ever known. 4143 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - Would the construction of the line open up that country? 4143 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Yes, because it would enable heavy machinery to be carted within a reasonable distance of that area over the worst portions of the track in the Northern Territory. In South Australia, from Lake Eyre northward, the country is fairly barren, and there is such a scarcity of water that I do not suppose it would carry one sheep to 30 acres. 4143 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - It has been settled for 30 years or move. 4143 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Yes, but cartage is most difficult over that country. Sitting suspended from 6. SO to 8 p.m. 4143 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - I have said that the country in the Northern Territory is deceptive from the pastoral point of view. Men who have visited the Territory have lauded certain areas as great pastoral country, and condemned other areas as poor country, and I have known that the areas condemned were really good country, and" those praised were indifferent country. The honorable member for Riverina compared the areas adjacent to the railway between Darwin and the Katherine River with the very poor country at the southern end of the Territory, which, in his opinion, is useless country. I can inform him that there is a great difference between the carrying capacities of these areas. In the northern areas referred to the grasses grow to a height of from 12 to 14 feet, and the pastoralist who puts stock into that country can only expect them to die, because it is impossible for them to live on those grasses. That country cannot be compared with the country in the southern part of the Territory, which appeared to the honorable member to be valueless. No one going through that southern part of the Territory, even though it may be after a number of bad seasons, will find poor horses or cattle, and it is obvious that if horses and cattle can be kept in good condition during trying seasons, the land must have some considerable value. I know that after a number of years of scanty rainfall, and within six weeks of a fall of rain, fat cattle were marketed from that part of the Territory. The conclusion at which the honorable member for Riverina has arrived is that the Government would not be justified iu constructing the line from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs. He prefers that it should devote its energy and expenditure to the construction of a line running up from Bourke through New South Wales and the western areas of Queensland to Camooweal, and thence westward to Newcastle Waters. 4143 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - I also recommended the construction of a good main road. 4143 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - I agree with the honorable member as to the advantage of the construction of such a line as that to which he referred, and I also agree with the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) and that that line should be continued through the western portion of the Northern Territory into the northwest of Western Australia. If such a Hue had been constructed, it would have prevented the loss of stock to the value of millions of pounds. It was very gratifying to hear such an expert in pastoral matters as the honorable member for Riverina telling the House the value of the country through which such a line would pass. 4144 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins - Would the adoption of that suggestion mean the construction of two lines? 4144 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Tes. The north-south line is the one under discussion, and the honorable member for Riverina suggested the construction of a line running east and west, and crossing the north-south line in the northern part of the Territory. 4144 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - The construction of such a line has been the intention for 30 years past. 4144 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - That is so. The value of that line does not detract in any way from the merits of the extension of the north-south line from Oodnadatta northwards. I believe the construction of a line across to Wyndham is essential; but what we are concerned about is the development of the Northern Territory, and to confine our efforts to the northern part would be a fatal mistake. The honorable member for Riverina, on the track on which he travelled over the Macdonnell Ranges, met with a good deal of rocky country after passing Alice Springs, which would not be likely to favorably impress any one, but if he had deviated from the line east and west for from 50 to 100 miles, as he did in the northern part of the Territory, the carrying capacity of the country he would have been able to see would have been a revelation to him, and he would have returned from the Territory with an opinion of its resources very different from that which he has expressed this afternoon. 4144 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Is it not a fact that in other parts of the Territory the country east and west of the overland route is much worse than the country on the route itself? I was told that that is the case. 4144 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - I can speak of the country from the experience of settlers within the last five years. The impression was held, and is still held, that the country east and west of the north-south line in the central part of the Territory is more or less desert country. But a reference to the records of the Lands Department showing the lands taken up in that area during the last five years is sufficient to refute the statement that that country is worthless. There is a great deal of spinifex country there, but it is soft spinifex, and that is not bad country for cattle. I know some young men who settled in the Central Australia country within the last four or five years and are to-day in a position to sign a very substantial cheque. They started without capital, their only assets being their hands and the will to conquer; and they have conquered. Some of them are here now, looking for other young fellows to go back with them on the share system. They have found that under present conditions the cost of dog-netting their areas is prohibitive. They have found also that it is useless to employ the aborigines as they cannot be trusted. One settler found that with the employment of aboriginals his annual natural increase was about 27 per cent. When he dispensed with native labour and he and his partner took turn about at shepherding, the natural increase rose in one year to about 60 per cent. These men are satisfied that the country on which they are settled is sheep country. In the Arltunga district a man named Cavanagh has made a fortune out of sheep. He did not go in for a very extensive flock, but a flock of 5,000 or 6,000 that he could manage. It is proved that the country is sheep country. I do not say that it has a great carrying capacity, but the areas available are vast, and there is room for the settlement of hundreds of settlers. With sympathetic treatment from the Government, much greater production might be anticipated from that Central Australia country. The Government might undertake to dog-net 50,000 or 100,000 square miles of that country and subdivide it for settlement, because the dingoes are the big menace to stock there. Owing to the high freight on all material required for fencing, the cost is prohibitive for individual settlers. 4144 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - That was tried at Mataranka. 4144 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - The honorable member says that sheep raising was tried at Mataranka, which is in the northern part of the Territory, where it is a common thing to see grass from 15 feet to 18 feet high. As a sheep man the honorable member knows that with spear grass growing to that height, the country is not suitable for sheep. I have always contended that the northern part of the Territory is not sheep country, and the fact that settlers failed with sheep at Mataranka does not prove that sheep cannot be successfully grazed in other parts of the Northern Territory. A settler named Nickers on the overland track told the honorable member that the country was fairly good, but what did that same gentleman tell the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart) when he visited the Northern Territory? He told that honorable member that at the time he was holding something like 2,000 square miles of country; but that if the Commonwealth Government would do for him what was being done for settlers in Queensland and would give him wire netting at a reasonable cost, spreading the payment for it over a number of years, and assist him in providing water, he would select 20,000 acres from his area of 2,000 square miles, would go in for sheep, and would never look back. 4145 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - And he said also that the Government could take the rest of his area. 4145 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - I want to say that the area occupied by Nickers is not an exceptional area in that part of the country. I admit quite frankly that if I had known the work that is being done to-day by motor transport, I doubt that I should have advocated the construction of the railway from Oodnadatta to Alice . The motor car and motor truck are mobile vehicles. They are not confined to a definite track as a train is, but can deviate from the main track to any place at which loading is to be obtained. In view of the development of motor traffic in the Northern Territory, one is justified in questioning the wisdom of the construction of the proposed line. If the amount which the Government contemplate expending on the construction of the railway were put into a bank and the interest on it used in the construction of roads throughout the country it would be possible to open up, not merely the north-south route, but also eastern and western routes in the Northern Territory, and the capital would remain intact in the bank. I would agree entirely with the honorable member were it not for the necessity for transporting fat stock, which causes me to hesitate in advocating motor transport as a complete substitute for railways. I have recently met pastoralists who had stock too fat to travel on the roads, and it would mean much to those men if they could entrain their cattle and deliver them in sound condition. When buyers were paying £7 10s. a head for cattle at Alice Springs, they knew they would obtain £15 or £16 a head for the same beasts at Adelaide. If it is decided to substitute droving for railway transport, a vast improvement must be made in the stock routes. It is no wonder that Central Australia has a bad name for its cattle. The honorable member for Riverina and the honorable member for Bass will admit that the stock driven recently from Central Australia to the head of the railway at Oodnadatta, and thence taken by rail to Adelaide, had to travel for three weeks with three drinks of water. Is it possible to land stock in good condition if they have only three drinks of water in three weeks ? Such, however, are the conditions provided by the Government on the stock routes of the Territory. It is true that there are wells here and there, and that they are all right for one mob of cattle; but, when the droving season arrives, tens of thousands of cattle are travelling. The first mob at a well has a drink, the second mob has only half a drink, and the third mob has to wait four days for half a drink. The Government does not seem to appreciate the vastness of the Territory and the difficulties under which settlement is being attempted. Persons who travel in a motor car from well to well may think that there is plenty of water; but let them mount an old horse, tail up a mob of bullocks, and drive them to the wells under existing conditions. They would then have a different tale to tell. The country is in a deplorable state, not because of its unproductivity, but because of the bad stretch between Oodnadatta and Charlotte Waters, which is severe on travelling stock, and injures the reputation of the pastoral industry in the Territory. If cattle have to travel for three weeks with only three drinks of water, how much worse would the conditions be for sheep, lt is a recognized fact -.that cattle travel twice as fast as sheep, *o that sheep would have to travel for six weeks on three drinks of water. Those drawbacks could be removed if the Government would deal justly with the pioneers who are doing the spade work of development. If -there were good stock routes, with abundance of water, T would favour a policy of road construction rather than railway construction; but, with the existing policy, or lack of policy, the railway is the only' safe way. Although the argument of the honorable member is good as applied to the pastoral industry, it is not applicable to industries that require machinery and other materials not used by the pastoralists. Here, again, one sees the short-sighted policy of the Government. The railway is to be constructed, but the Government is making no preparation for the development of the country through which it will pass. The promotion of general development should be an adjunct to a railway policy; the two should go hand in glove. We should not just build a railway, and afterwards mourn the losses on it. If tha Government is serious in its developmental policy, it still has ample time to put the country into a state of productivity ready for when the railway is completed to Alice Springs. Mining is one of the industries that should be promoted now, but there is little prospect of doing anything in that direction during the discussion of the Estimates. The Estimates include an item of £400 for the encouragement of the mining industry in the whole of the territory. Any man who knows anything about mining knows that to sink a prospecting shaft costs about £6 a foot. Therefore, a £400 subsidy on a £1 for £1 basis would provide for about 133$ feet of shaft-sinking. Imagine seriously attempting to develop mining in a territory of 500,000 square miles with 133$ feet of shaft ! But that, nevertheless, is the Go.vernment's idea of encouraging mining in the Northern Territory. Unfortunately, the Government has lost sight of the things which are material to the development of the territory. The freight on benzine from Quorn to the head of the railway is £8 0s. 8d. per ton. On the same basis it will cost from £16 to £18 a ton from Quorn to Alice Springs, or about £47 a ton to transport Commonwealth Oil Refineries spirit from Melbourne to Alice Springs. Development under such conditions is impossible. All these things must be taken into consideration in any development policy. I do not wish to deal severely with the honorable member for Riverina. I realize that he placed before this- House his honest convictions, and all 1 regret is that he had not the opportunity of seeing more of central Australia. I am convinced that if he had seen more of it his honest and candid criticism of the country would have been different. I am gratified that he was more than pleased with the possibilities of vast areas of the Barkly Tablelands, and was impressed with what he heard of the western territory. I hope that the debate to-day will be an incentive for honorable members to acquire first-hand knowledge of the Territory. I am convinced that the more knowledge honorable members acquire, the more attention this Parliament will pay to the development of that part of Australia. 4146 KV8 Wimmera 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART .- The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) has re-opened a subject that has often been debated in this Chamber - the wisdom or otherwise of constructing the line from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs. It should be obvious to all honorable members that no debate can alter the fact that this Parliament has already authorized the construction of the line; but, notwithstanding that, the honorable member should be commended for bringing the subject of the development of the Northern Territory again before the House. Having just returned from a visit to that very interesting part of Australia, I should like to touch upon one or two matters regarding the productivity of the Macdonnell Range country, that has been debated somewhat vigorously by the honorable member for Wakefield, and by others. I should not care to pit my pastoral experience against that of the honorable member for Riverina, for I believe that he is better qualified to speak on pastoral subjects than most members of this House. Nevertheless, I have had some experience in developing outback country, and I have had the added experience gained during two visits to the Northern Territory. I saw it on one occasion under what I understood were adverse conditions, and I saw it on the last occasion under more favorable conditions. I stayed some days at Alice Springs, and in the Macdonnell Range, and travelled hundreds of miles westwards into the country. The honorable member, in my opinion, took a somewhat pessimistic view of the possibilities of development. As the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson) has 'said, to go through the country in a motor car. travelling rapidly along the stock routes, and to trust to the information gained from the few persons one meets on the track, is not always the most reliable way of ascertaining the possibilities of the country. I have always said that the obligation to build the north-south line existed, and should be honoured ; and, in saying that, I had no axe to grind. I would fight for the development of my own constituency as vigorously as any honorable member would fight for that of his, but at times I try to look beyond it. I have always taken an impartial and active interest in the Commonwealth's obligations respecting the building of the north-south line, and the establishment of the Federal Capital, I think that the building of a railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs is justified. When visiting the Northern Territory, I, like the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson), was very much impressed with the possibilities of motor transport. Some two and a half years ago, in the capacity of Minister for Works and Railways, I toured that country by motor car, and the trip was regarded somewhat in the nature of an adventure. Last month I again visited the territory, and found that the trip from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs is an every day occurrence, not in light motor cars, but in heavy motor trucks, carrying at times loads of over two tons, and travelling, on good patches of road, faster than some railway trains, certainly faster than the train from Marree to Oodnadatta. I agree with what the honorable member for the Northern Territory said, and I hope that the Minister will take note of his appeal for' the improvement of that road. Of the stretch of 350 miles over which the motor trucks travel, 330 miles is passably good. The remaining 20 miles is the cause of. all the trouble, and it would not need a large sum of money to repair the bad patches of road. I suggest that the Government send an officer there to ascertain the bad patches of road, and, by expending a little money in improving them, confer a boon upon the residents of the territory. If the road were improved, the motor owners could rightly be asked to reduce freights a little, and I feel sure that they would agree to do so. Motor transport will be an important factor in lessening the loss on the railway when it is constructed, because the motor vehicles will act as feeders, to the railhead at Alice Springs. I understood the honorable member for Riverina to say that cattle would not be trucked over this line when constructed. I do not agree with him. On both my visits to the territory, I discussed the trucking of cattle with the cattle men. They told me that cattle that were prime at Alice Springs, were stores when they reached Oodnadatta, because of the lack of water and feed on the route. Nothing will reduce the condition of a beast more quickly than lack of water. The cattle men of the Macdonnell Range country are in effect breeders of store cattle. Their cattle never reach the Adelaide market in prime condition. When the railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs has been built, I believe that nearly all the cattle in that country will1 be trucked to the southern markets. 4147 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Only if the market is attractive. * 4147 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - Port Augusta is a magnificent port, and facilities could be established there for the export of beef. That would be a second string to the bow of the cattle men of the territory. They complained bitterly to the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson), the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson), and myself, about the lack of water along the stock route. The Government has stated that a considerable sum of money has already been expended in sinking, bores for water. That may be so, but the settlers, rightly or wrongly, are almost unanimous that the Government's policy has been wrong, because the bores have not been drilled deep enough. In some cases the bores were sunk to 150 feet, at considerable expense, and the plant, for some unknown reason, was removed somewhere else. 4147 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - Did not one contractor offer to drill 100 feet for nothing if the Government would pay the cost of drilling another 100 feet? 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - One contractor, a Mr. Horwood, was so confident that water could be obtained that after drilling for 350 feet he said that if the Government would pay for drilling another 100 feet he would drill a similar distance for nothing. The Government should make a searching inquiry respecting the policy of those controlling water boring operations. I have always held the opinion that the water conservation policy for the Northern Territory was wrong, because of insufFicient attention being paid to the conservation of surface water by the construction of dams and the like. Throughout the Macdonnell Range country there are possibilities of water conservation. I know what has been done in this direction in the Mallee country of Victoria, and I suggest that the Government should borrow the services of some of the engineers of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission of Victoria, who have been responsible for the reticulation of the Mallee country. That scheme consists of the conservation of the waters of the Grampians in a lake there, and their reticulation for a distance of 200 miles as the crow flies through the arid and sandy country adjacent to the River Murray. That is one of the most remarkable and successful schemes of water conservation in the world. If the engineers responsible for that work were sent to the Macdonnell Ranges for three or four months and instructed to report freely on the conservation of surface waters there, I am satisfied that it would be time and money well spent. 4148 KZT LP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RODGERS, Arthur Mr RODGERS - Is there not a great amount of evaporation in that country? 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - Undoubtedly the evaporation is great, but it is not great enough to prevent the conservation of water. Water is conserved at Broken Hill, and the honorable member knows that there is not much difference between the evaporation at Broken Hill and that at Alice Springs. 4148 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - The difference is in favour of Alice Springs. 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - That is so, because the rainfall at the Macdonnell Ranges, being of a monsoonal nature, is better for catchment purposes. The railway from Marree to Oodnadatta is not in a good state of repair. The new locomotives that have been ordered, are too heavy for the line, and their speed is limited to 25 miles an hour because of the bad state of the permanent way. The Algebuckina bridge is a remarkable structure, but because the new locomotives are unable to cross it a deviation of the line has been made. 4148 KFP 0 0 FOSTER, Richard Mr Foster - South Australia has always regretted building that bridge; a level crossing should be there. 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - The honorable member is, perhaps, right; but the bridge is there and the locomotives are unable to cross it. A low level crossing has now been constructed at that point. The provision of both of those works has cost the taxpayers a great deal of money. It is rumoured that the Government intends to strengthen that bridge. Honorable members should be informed of the cost of the deviation and of the proposed repairs to the bridge. 4148 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - It is proposed to strengthen the bridge. For years we have known that it would require strengthening to take the extra traffic that will pass over it from the new line. 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - Did the estimate of the construction of the railway from, Oodnadatta to Alice Springs include repairs to the existing line? 4148 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - I think not. 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - It would be interesting to know the cost of putting the existing line in a good state of repair. 4148 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - It would be a big item. 4148 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - It would be a big item indeed, and the House should be informed of it. The differences of opinion that have been expressed to-day emphasize once more the necessity for the appointment of some permanent committee of this House, on the lines of our existing committees, to inquire into developmental schemes, quite distinct from the Public Works Committee and \he Development and Migration Commission. Honorable members have the responsibility of voting millions of pounds for various works and railway construction about which the majority of them know little, and the few honorable members that know anything at all are at sixes and sevens respecting the wisdom of the expenditure. I cannot resume my seat without paying a tribute to the work of the pioneers in our out-back country. They deserve well of this Parliament, and the Government should do whatever it can to make their lot easier. They do not ask for statues, band rotundas, lawns, or anything of that kind; all that they want is a stock route, a decent water supply, a moderately good road to enable them to reach the centres of civilization occasionally, and medical facilities. It is a reflection upon the Government that it has not long ago provided a medical practitioner for Alice Springs. The nearest doctor to that far-away inland town is at Oodnadatta, which is 300 miles south, and his only means of conveyance is the camel. The Government refused to provide £1,000 on the estimates to meet the expenses of settling a doctor at Alice Springs, on the ground that there might not be sufficient work to keep him fully occupied. The result has been that white women will not live there, and a halfcaste problem has grown up which will later cause the Government a great deal of trouble. 4149 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr Jackson - Another body has now established a hospital there. 4149 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - I give every .credit to the Australian Inland Mission for providing the hospital there, which the Government should have established many years ago. I urge the Minister to give a liberal interpretation to every request that the people in the far interior make for medical attention, water supplies, and roads. Every facility should be given to honorable members of this Parliament to visit central and northern Australia. When the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) and I wished to visit Alice Springs recently, we had to press our claim for travelling concessions. We did not ask for a special motor car, but merely for a pass that would entitle us to travel on the 2- ton lorry that plies regularly between Oodnadatta and Alice Springs. I think I am entitled to say that it was only when we intimated that we could rightly demand a trip to Port Darwin and back, which would have cost four or five times as much as a trip to Alice Springs, that our request was granted. I understand that the trip which the honorable member for Riverina has just concluded cost him over £100. 4149 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - That is a shame. 4149 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - It certainly is not right. I do not say that honorable members should be entitled to hire a motor car and take a trip to the Territory whenever they have a passing fancy to do so, but I certainly contend that they should be granted facilities to travel on any regular conveyance to the interior. If the members of this Parliament had a better knowledge of the needs of the far north they would make fewer mistakes in legislating for it. If a railway is put through to the Macdonnell Range country, I believe that the story of pioneer settlement in the Mallee will be repeated there. 4149 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - What does the honorable member think of the possibility of sheep raising in the Macdonnell Range country ? 4149 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr STEWART - Given a railway, I have no doubt whatever that sheep will replace cattle there. One reason that they are not there at present is that it is too difficult to get them in and out; and another is that before sheep can be managed, fences and water provision are necessary. It is impossible to carry wire netting or scoops and ploughs on the backs of camels. Soon after the railway is operating, sheep raising will be undertaken in a substantial way in the Macdonnell Range country. The railway, in my opinion, is thoroughly justified; but, pending its construction, I urge the Go- vernrnent to give every consideration to providing water schemes, roads, and medical facilities for the pioneers there. It is a peculiar thing that it is possible to determine the attitude of practically every honorable member on this matter by merely ascertaining the State that he represents. If we listened only to honorable members who represent South Australian constituencies, we should come to, the conclusion that the Northern Territory is a magnificent country, while honorable members who represent constituencies in New South Wales and Queensland assure us that parts of it are all right, but that it should not be developed from the southern end. I represent a Victorian constituency, and I have no axe to grind. In ray opinion, the Government is making no mistake in: seeking to develop the Territory from the southern end. 4150 KF9 Kalgoorlie ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN .- I listened with keen attention to the remarks of the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart). Although I have always been, and still am, of the opinion that the Commonwealth should honour its pledge to South Australia, my idea of the value of the country from Marree to Oodnadatta has been considerably changed by a visit I have paid to it. I regret to say that those parts of Central Australia that I have seen are not nearly so fertile as I was led to believe they were. 4150 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - The honorable member has not yet seen Central Australia. 4150 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - I admit at once that I have not been beyond Oodnadatta; but, as my opinion is unlikely to affect the construction of the railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs, I must say frankly that, although I have seen a good deal of what is called the desert country of Australia, the country between Marree and Oodnadatta is the poorest I have seen anywhere. Whatever its condition may have been years ago, it has been destroyed by overstocking. Prom Hawker onwards, properties are pointed out that years ago carried 40,000," 50,000, and up to 100,000 sheep, which to-day are not carrying one-tenth as many. The salt bush there has been completely eaten out, and the country is now a wind-swept waste. I wish to make it quite clear that I am not -speaking of the Northern Territory, but of the wilderness between Marree and Oodnadatta. 4150 KV8 0 0 STEWART, Percy Mr Stewart - That is a reflection upon the constituency of the honorable member for Grey (Mr. Lacey). 4150 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - The honorable member for Grey is something of a pioneer in this House in that he is trying to unlock what is now a desert. I have a good deal of sympathy with him. The truth about this country is to be found somewhere between the pessimistic views that the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) holds of it - though Ave must, oi necessity, pay a good deal of deference to his opinion - and the optimistic estimate of it of the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster), who would lead us to believe that it is not necessary to die to get to Paradise, but merely to travel north from Oodnadatta. The suggestion made by the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart), that honorable members should be given every facility to visit the interior of Australia without heavy expense to themselves, is well worthy of the earnest consideration of the Government. Honorable members are expected to vote huge sums of money for developmental works in these areas, and if they had a little personal knowledge of the country they would be able to spend the public money much more intelligently than they can possibly do now. It is remarkable that only two or three honorable members of this House have traversed the continent from north to south. In the circumstances, it cannot be expected that public money will be spent to the best advantage. I can understand the warmth of the honorable member for the Northern Territory in discussing this matter, for I was one of a party which contemplated a trip to the Northern Territory some eighteen months ago under his guidance. For some reason which has never been disclosed, the motor cars that were to have been used by the party were not made available. It has been suggested that the Federal Government should take over the north-weSt of Western Australia, and that it, together with the Northern Territory and a considerable area of northern Queensland, should be controlled by this Parliament. The reason that the Government of Western Australia ia not willing to hand over that part of its territory to the Commonwealth is that it is afraid that the same wasteful expenditure of public money may occur there that has occurred in the Northern Territory, and that there will be just as little to show for it. Although the Western Australian Government has spent less than one-third as much in the north-west of Western Australia as this Government has spent in the Northern Territory, it has established a meatworks there, and has done something towards providing a regular service of steamers. The responsibility for lack of an air service must be laid at the door of the Federal Government. 4151 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - The meat-works at Wyndham have saved the Northern Territory and the north-west portion of Western Australia at times. 4151 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - Yes; and I respectfully suggest that the Government should take the earliest opportunity of sending a party of such ardent inquirers as the honorable members for Wimmera and Riverina to inspect the country between Darwin, Broome, Derby, and Wyndham, no portion of which has a rainfall of less than 20 inches per annum. I hope that in the near future that country will be under the control of this Parliament. The settlers should be given a voice in the government of that area, by the establishment of an administration somewhat on the lines of the advisory council in Papua, or on the lines on which the Crown colony of Hong kong is governed. There are men in the Northern Territory who, having lived there for years, love it just as others are devoted to the southern parts of Australia, and commissioners of that type could he depended upon to see to its successful development. 4151 KJM Bass 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr JACKSON .- I think that my views on the subject of the Northern Territory are well known both inside and outside this House, since I have expressed them on many occasions in various parts of the Commonwealth. After a second visit last month to the Macdonnell Ranges I have no reason to alter the opinion that I formed five years ago, supported by the evidence given before the, section of the Public Works Commitee of which I was a member. I have stated on many occasions that I did not support the construction of the north-south railway because of the pledge made to South Australia. I am in the same position as the honorable member for Wimmera. Since my constituency is in the State of Tasmania, I, unlike honorable members from South Australia and Queensland, cannot be regarded as biased. Although I respect the judgment of the honorable member for Riverina, I must set against it the opinion of men who have made money out of the Territory. I shall only mention one of them, Sir Sidney Kidman, who stated to the Public Works Committee that there was no better sheep land in Australia than that in the Macdonnell Ranges. I believe that that country will be developed by sheep-raising, and that the Government would do well to follow the advice of the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart) in regard to water surveys. Oh my way to Alice Springs recently I met a gentleman who went to the Northern Territory 23 years ago. He has made money out of cattle and sheep, and he told me that the wells between Oodnadatta and Alice Springs were in a worse condition now than they were in when he first settled in that country. Five years ago it was the duty of a well-repairing party to see that the Government wells were kept in order; but no such arrangement exists to-day. The wells are supposed to be kept in repair by contract. On reaching a well north of Alice Springs recently, a mob of cattle was unable to obtain water because of the large number of stock that required a drink. They had to travel to the next watering place, which was at Burt Well. There is was found that the bucket was at the bottom of the well, and when it was recovered the drover noticed that there was a hole in the bottom of it. 4151 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - The rope was broken and worn out. 4151 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr JACKSON - The settler had only one eye, and he had the misfortune to injure it through a piece of the rope striking it. For three days he was unable to use his eye; but I am pleased to say that the sight is now unimpaired. There is no proper care of the wells in the Northern Territory. 4151 KYV ALP 0 0 RILEY, Edward Mr E RILEY - That is a serious reflection on the Government. 4151 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - Does the honorable member suggest that those wells are not kept in good order? 4151 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr JACKSON - Yes ; I say that definitely. 4151 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - I am equally definite in stating that the wells to which the honorable member has referred, were put in through repair less than twelve months ago. 4151 KJM 0 0 JACKSON, David Mr JACKSON - I say, emphatically, that they were not in good order three weeks ago. Since the area under consideration is over 500,000 square miles, no single railway could develop it. I agree with the honorable member for Riverina that a line should be constructed across the Barkly Tablelands into Queensland. I have always held that view. A perusal of the Public Works Committee's report in 1922 will show that that body first recommended the construction of a line through that country, and then a railway from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs. But the honorable member will do nothing towards the development of the Territory by advocating that it should be opened up by means of a motor road. As to the present motor traffic, it is time that a motor road was declared; waggons could still use the old track. There are only a few spots at which some of the rivers could be crossed, particularly the Finke and the Hugh. I had the experience on my return journey recently of being stuck with a motor car in the middle of one of the sandiest stretches, because a drover had his cattle resting, at the very spot where a dry river bed had t.o be crossed. It is high, time notices were erected warning drovers that they should take cattle across at some other point. The honorable member for Riverina is credited with having said that owners will not truck cattle from Alice Springs, but I point out that in almost every instance the sworn evidence submitted to the Works Committee was that they would certainly take advantage of railway transport, because it would pay them better to obtain high prices for good meat in the Adelaide market than to send down store cattle. I hope that the item will be passed as printed. 4152 KZ6 Grey 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY .- I am rather reluctant to re-open a subject that has been discussed on so many occasions as has the north-south railway. My only reason for rising is to reply to some of the remarks of the honorable member for Riverina. We now find that honorable members are not disputing the agreement made with South Australia so much as they are trying to prevent by every other possible means the building of the line. Great credit is due to the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) and other honorable members who have visited the Territory and expressed an unbiased opinion concerning it. But some honorable members take every opportunity of advocating the construction of a line other than on the direct north-south route. In my opinion some of their statements are incorrect. A few days ago a motion tabled by an honorable member from New South Wales was under consideration. He wished to obtain an advantage by a deviation through his State. A representative of Western Australia is also trying to get a "cut" for that State. The honorable member for Riverina, I am satisfied, went to the Northern Territory with his opinion already formed, and he has taken a biased view of the potentialities of the country. I have inspected a good deal of the vast area traversed by him. It is true that owing to drought conditions, and because of a large accumulation of stock in the neighbourhood of Oodnadatta, the country immediately around that centre is eaten out, and is to some extent a desert ; but it must be remembered that in 1906 the lower portion of the Northern Territory saved the stock of a large number of farmers in South Australia. My brother went to the Northern Territory at that time with stock because of the drought in South Australia. The condition of the country then was the reverse of what it is to-day. I do not wish to discuss this matter at great length to-night,, but I should like to say that those who favour the construction of the line have nothing to fear. The bill authorizing its construction was passed by this House, and the agreements of 1910 and of last year have been ratified by this Parliament. To-day the survey of the line is being made, and I hope that in the very near future its construction will be begun. The honorable member for Riverina stated that the country between Oodnadatta and Alice Springs is of a very poor nature. 4152 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson - The honorable member said that for 700 miles it is of a poor nature. 4152 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - The honorable member's description might, perhaps, be applied to the country for the first 50 or 100 miles north of Oodnadatta, but beyond that up to Alice Springs the character of the country gradually improves. The honorable member travelled over the stock route, and did not leave it to see what the country on either side was like. He is, therefore, not in a position to give a reliable report of its character. If he had taken the trouble, south of Alice Springs, as he did further north, to inspect the country on either side of the stock route, he would have reported quite differently about it. When I visited the Northern Territory last year, I departed from the stock route on the journey from Oodnadatta to Alice Springs, and I am convinced that the party of which I was a member would have been deceived as to the character of the country if it had remained on the stock route. The honorable member told us that the country around Alice Springs is of a mountainous and rocky nature, but for the information of honorable members who have not been there, I may say that for 12 miles north of Alice Springs the country is rocky and hilly, but after that you reach the fringe of Burt Plain, which extends for miles. The statements of the honorable member for Riverina would lead to the impression that the whole of the country around Alice Springs is rocky and hilly, and unsuitable for grazing. 4153 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - I said that it is all second class country or worse, and I still say so. 4153 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - I do not agree with the honorable member. Immediately you get through the hilly country around Alice Springs you reach first class pastoral country. If it were not so far removed from centres of population some of that country might be devoted to the cultivation of wheat. 4153 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - If it had a proper rainfall. 4153 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - The Minister for Works and Railways (Mr. Hill) will, I think, bear me out when I say that when we visited the Territory in 1924 we were told that the rainfall of the district I refer to was 121/2 inches per annum. 4153 KHG 0 0 HILL, William Mr Hill - The average annual rainfall at Alice Springs for the last 45 years is 11 inches. 4153 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - Provided that the annual fall does not occur in one shower, the honorable member for Riverina and the honorable member for Wimmera will admit that a rainfall of 11 inches is sufficient for the production of wheat. 4153 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Unfortunately, the rain does not come at the time of the year suitable for the production of wheat. The country is good wheat-growing country if the rainfall were suitable. 4153 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - I am contending that it is good pastoral country. We saw sheep in that part of the Territory looking quite as well as sheep to be seen in other parts of Australia. We had to drive the animals out of high grass in order to secure a photograph of a very fine flock of sheep at Ryan's Well. What I have heard the honorable member for Riverina say about that country has made me wonder how much reliance can be placed upon his description of portions of the Northern Territory that I have not had the good fortune to visit. His pessimistic observations need not be taken seriously, in view of the opinions which have been expressed by uninterested persons like the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Stewart) and the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jackson) and others who have visited the Northern Territory. It has been said that the one thing that is necessary is a better supply of water on the stock route. When I visited the Territory, the Wells on the stock route were in good order, hut there was not a sufficient number of them. Going up, we passed a mob of 561 cattle, and repassed the same mob twelve or fifteen days later. During that time these cattle had to go six days without water. That may seem to some honorable members to be extraordinary, but because of the heavy dews' and the fodder available it is possible in that locality to drove cattle six days without water. During the time mentioned the depreciation in the value of the cattle amounted to from 30s. to . £2 per head. The wells on the stock route should be kept in good order, and a greater number should be sunk. In reply to the opinions expressed by the honorable member for Riverina, I wish to place On record the views of other people who are acquainted with the conditions in the Northern Territory. The honorable member suggested that a committee should be appointed to inquire into the character of the country before the railway is constructed. Let me remind him that that has already been done. As a matter of fact, more than one committee has reported on this project. The report with which this House is most concerned is that of the Public Works Committee. In 1922 that committee took extensive evidence, and some of its members travelled over a great portion of the Territory. It presented a report to this Parliament recommending the construction of the railway. From the report I propose to quote the opinions of some pastoralists as to the character of the country. Mr. P. V. Ambrose, a pastoralist, gave the following evidence: - Our lease demands that we should carry one beast to the mile. When we came here in 1912 we had 1,168 cattle, and now we have approximately 4,000, and have sent away a mob every year. We could carry more stock if we had more water, as the feed for a greater number of stock is available. A railway would benefit us whatever route it took, provided it came to within 200 or 300 miles of us. At present we get our supplies from Oodnadatta, although Katherine is nearer. The railway that would bring most settlement would be one from the south, because it is more fit for stocking purposes than the northern end. Here is a pastoralist living in the Northern Territory who has no interest in the southern end, and yet he expresses the opinion that the southern part of the Territory is more suitable than the northern end for stock. That refutes the testimony of the honorable member for Riverina. Another witness, Mr. Alfred John Cotton, a grazier in the Northern Territory, and also a grazier in Queensland, expressed the opinion that if a railway were built the Territory would be developed as other parts of Australia have been developed, and he said - Take, for instance, the railway from Hughenden to Cloncurry. I remember travelling over this route before the railway was built, when you could count the number of settlers on your fingers. Now since the railway has been built there are very many hundreds. If you want development of virgin country, capital must be encouraged to come. Why is it that to-day the Argentine has £100.000,000 of British "capital invested there? Because the Government of that country realize that to encourage development they must encourage capital, and offer sufficient inducement for the man with the money to invest. If you do the same in the Territory, plenty of capital will be available, for the wool-growing and stock-raising conditions are unsurpassed in any other part of Australia, owing to the formation of the country and its freedom from periodical droughts. This Northern Territory must be looked upon for many years to come as only a sheep and cattle-raising proposition. 4154 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Was Mr. Cotton not speaking of the Barkly Tablelands when he gave that evidence? 4154 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr LACEY - No, he was referring to the Northern Territory generally. We do not say that the Territory is today any more than a sheep and cattle-raising proposition. I could quote extensively from the evidence given to the Public Works Committee by men of experience in the pastoral industry who spoke in terms similar to those I have already quoted. Mr. S. J. Mitchell gave this evidence in answer to the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Mathews) - I think that this north-south railway would benefit the Territory as much as many sanguine people think. I am very enthusiastic about it. I am too old to be influenced by sentiment in a matter of this kind. I am looking at the matter in a hard business-like way. The land - is of value, and you cannot settle people there without giving an advantage to the whole of Australia, just as you cannot keep people from those lands without disadvantage to Australia. If it were proposed to carry the central railway further west still, I do not say I would advocate the idea, but it would receive my serious attention. Such a railway would take us into very unsettled country. Sir Sidney Kidman, in giving evidence before the same committee, said - There is no comparison between this and the Maree-Birdsville country. At times you can travel from the Macdonnell Ranges on the top feed, but there is nothing the other way. From what I know of the country, there is only one line of any benefit to South Australia, and that is the direct line - that is, the line to open up country which can be stocked with cattle. It is contended by all who advocate the construction of this railway, that it must be constructed in fulfilment of an honorable agreement with the South Australian Government. I did not hear the honorable member for Riverina say anything about the possibilities of mineral development in the Northern Territory. We who advocate the construction of the line contend that there are greater possibilities of mineral development there than in any other part of Australia. The quotations made by the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson) amply demonstrate that. I hope that the Government will not be influenced by anything that has been said against the decision to construct the line, but will finish the. survey as soon as possible, and proceed with the construction work immediately afterwards. I look forward to the first sod of the line being turned within the next twelve months. I said the other day that the construe- tion of roads must be discussed in this House on a future occasion ; the construction of spur lines for the Northern Territory will also have to be discussed. To make the present stock route into a road would entail a large expenditure. Heavy expense would be entailed, apart from the several crossings of the Finke River. At one stage of our trip we travelled only 30 miles from daylight to dark without crossing the Finke River. To make that portion of the track suitable for heavy motor traffic would be enormously expensive. Road transport, moreover, would not provide for the moving of stock from the Northern Territory to South Australia. Every one admits that the -country improves the farther north one goes. It is from the northern part of the line that the cattle will come. The country near Oodnadatta is not good. To be perfectly candid, the existing railway line goes through the worst country in the Territory. The last 120 miles before reaching Oodnadatta is greatly inferior to that just beyond Oodnadatta. Question resolved in. the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In committee. Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to. Schedule. 4155 JVZ Barker LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 0 0 CAMERON, Malcolm Mr CAMERON .- I should like an explanation from the Minister for Defence of several items under the heading of ' ' War and Repatriation Services." Considering the length of time that has elapsed since the end of the war, some of these items appear extraordinary. There is an item of £50,000 for " Expenditure arising out of requisition and use of vessels for transport services in connexion with Expeditionary Forces." It is strange that such an item should appear in a Loan Bill eight years after the end of the war. There are also items, " Refund to Imperial Government of hire money in respect of ex-enemy vessels, £58,000 " ; and " Liabilities in respect of " adjustments between Australian Imperial Force and New Zealand Expeditionary Force abroad, £45,000." 4155 KI7 Calare NAT 1 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir NEVILLE HOWSE . - The items referred to by the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Cameron") are legacies which I, as Minister for Defence, have inherited. The item of £45,000, which was the principal item to which he referred, was expenditure in connexion with the services of the Australian Imperial Forces. It was originally an item of nearly £75,000. I was instructed by the Government to proceed to New Zealand and interview the Government of that Dominion, and after three days residence there I was able to reach an agreement by which a saving of nearly £30,000 was effected to this Government. The honorable member has pointed out that it is time these items ceased. I think there are only a few of them left, and I hope they will all be cleared up this" financial year. 4155 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- I wish to impress upon the Government the advisability of increasing the wonderful civil aviation service provided in Western Australia and other parts of this country. Between Perth and Derby there is, I think, the best service in Australia. I have always taken a keen interest in the development of the north of Western Australia, and I ask the Government to make a sacrifice to develop that part of the country. Unless we can place people there, we cannot justify our possession of it. Two good things have been done- one is the provision of wireless stations at Camooweal and in the Victoria River country, and the other is the" inauguration of aviation services. The Western Australian service 'has done wonderful work. It has saved several lives, and is of great convenience to the communIty. The aeroplanes have compartments like those of hansom cabs, in which one can read, write, have meals, or go to sleep, without feeling either vibration or hearing noise. I am not seeking any special benefit for Western Australia. I should like the Government to carry the service right round the north-west coast to Darwin, and then link it up with the Queensland service to Longreach. If that were donn, the people in the outback would have a mail service at reasonable intervals, and facilities for transport in case of accident or sickness. On several occasions in Western Australia, patients have been taken to doctors and doctors to patients. The Government ought to do all it can to assist those who have the courage to go into the back country and promote its development. We can always find money for certain things, and it is wonderful with what alacrity the House passes a loan bill for the borrowing of £11,000,000. No question has been asked about how we shall raise the money, or where this policy of borrowing will end. The extent of our borrowing is appalling. There is no financial reason why the Government should not extend the service which I congratulate it upon having inaugurated a few years ago. 4156 JVZ Barker LP; NAT from 1925; UAP from 1931 0 0 CAMERON, Malcolm Mr CAMERON I wish to refer to the item relating to alterations of lighthouse services. The stores for Cape Borda and Cape de Couedie lighthouses, on Kangaroo Island, are landed by ships' slings, and this operation is carried out with considerable difficulty and danger to human life. Last year, two lives were lost while stores were being landed. It has been strongly urged that the lighthouses should be provisioned by means of a motor service. The present road is impassable, and I ask the Government to make a grant available to enable it to be put in proper order. The road would need to he cleared for about 100 miles, and this work could bc done at small expense. 4156 KF9 Kalgoorlie ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN .- I endorse the remarks of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) respecting the urgent need for extending the aerial service from Derby to Wyndham. Under this bill, only £8,500 is provided for civil aviation, but I understand that £250,000 is to be provided for this purpose. 4156 KI7 0 0 HOWSE, Neville Sir Neville Howse - The Appropriation Bill passed by this House a few days ago made provision for that amount. 4156 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - The remote parts of Australia seem to receive scant consideration from the Government. Yet it does not hesitate to encourage some industries by giving them bounties, and to protect others in the congested centres by means of the tariff. The people of the outback country are entitled to more consideration. The honorable member for Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson) has referred to some of the difficulties under which our outback settlers are living. I want to stress the need for the extension of the aerial service from Derby to Wyndham. In the Kimberly district, mails are received once every two months during that portion of the year when the meat works are operating. I wish to give one illustration of the difficulties of the pioneers there. In January last, the wife of a settler was suddenly taken ill on the eve of her departure for Wyndham, a distance of about 160 miles. A message was sent to Wyndham for the doctor. He set out on horseback, but arrived too late, and the unfortunate woman died the following day. If the aeroplane service had been available, two lives would probably have J been saved. Some guarantee of safety should be given to the wives of the men who are prepared to settle in the outback country rather than follow the pleasant vocations of the cities. Honorable members who represent the outback parts of Australia do not obtain the support to which they are justly entitled. I ask the Government to see that our outback settlers receive more consideration. 4156 KXR Angas 0 0 PARSONS, Walter Mr PARSONS .- I wish to draw attention to the urgent need for a new post office at Woodside, South Australia. The post office building there is 50 years old, and the dwelling house is over 60 years old. I visited Woodside recently, and inspected those buildings. I found them to be the most disreputable structures there. The town is provided with a continuous telephone service, and is also the centre of an extensive telephone system, being connected with a number of adjacent towns, such as Tweedvale and Balhannah. The accommodation in the post office is inadequate, and the building is dark, damp, and dreary. The post office has an agency for the Commonwealth Bank, but the accommodation is frequently congested, and there is a lack of privacy. The telephonist and the telegraphist work side by side, and their operations are, therefore, considerably cramped. Woodside is deserving of better post office accommodation. The present building is out of date, and it would be quite impossible to renovate it. I urge the Postmaster-General to provide a new post-office there in keeping with the importance of the town. Schedule agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. Bill read a third time. 4156 21:59:00 House adjourned at 9.59 p.m.