1931-07-07 12 1 4 REPS 3428 0 House of Representatives. 1931-07-07 Mr. Speaker (Hon. Norman Makin) took the chair at 3 p.m., and offered prayers. 3428 Questions 3428 3428 JOS 0 0 BELL, George Mr BELL - Has the Prime Minister informed the Governments of the States of the motion made by the Attorney-General on Friday last for the approval of the Statute of Westminster? Will he delay further consideration of that motion until the State Governments have had time to consider it? 3428 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - The Attorney-General is forwarding to the State Premiers a copy of the motion and his speech thereon. The Government will not delay proceeding with the proposal, but the debate is not likely to be resumed until the urgent measures now before the House have been disposed of. 3428 3428 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - I ask the Minister in charge of the War Service Homes Commission if it is still the policy of the department not to evict tenants of war service homes who are out of employment, and whose sons also are unable to get work? If so, will he explain why men arc being evicted from war service homes at Newcastle because their payments are three months in arrears, although they have already paid as much as £500 towards the purchase of their homes? 3428 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - The instruction was issued some time ago that no unemployed occupant of a war service home was to be evicted for non-payment of his instalments, and that instruction is being rigidly observed. 3428 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - Question! 3428 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - I have repeatedly stated that if honorable members will bring to my notice any instances in which this instruction has been departed from I shall have the injustice rectified immediately. No such instance has been brought to my notice. 3428 Travelling Allowances - Use of Motor Cars. 3428 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Will the Prime Minister allow me to have access to departmental files, so that I may obtain information regarding the cost of the hire of motor cars for Ministers, and the use of government cars by Ministers? I make this suggestion in order to save the cost of having the information prepared by a salaried officer? 3428 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - Last week the honorable member for Angus gave notice of a series of questions relating to the travelling expenses of Ministers, ministerial secretaries, and other public servants. I was advised that the preparation of the information would occupy at least a month, and involve the payment of a considerable amount for overtime. The expense was estimated to be approximately £300. The honorable member now proposes that he should be allowed to conduct this investigation himself. I reply frankly that the honorable member is incapable of doing it. 3428 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Irisk the Prime Minister if the wives of Ministers are allowed to use motor cars at the expense of the taxpayers. If not, will the right honorable gentleman investigate rumours that that is occurring in Melbourne? 3428 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - If I were to investigate all rumours, I should be even a much busier man than I am. 3428 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Answer the first part of my question. 3428 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - The wives of Ministers are not allowed to use government motor cars for private purposes, and I have not heard any rumour or report that they have done so. 3428 Five-days Week. 3428 KIT 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr MACKAY - I ask the Prime Minister whether the five-days week is now in operation in the public departments at Canberra; if so, were the heads of departments consulted regarding the possible inconvenience to the general public? As the Government proposes to exempt from this new arrangement the officers of the Postmaster-General's Department and the Trade and Customs Department, will they be paid extra for working on Saturdays? 3429 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - The advisability of instituting a five-days week was carefully investigated. The Government laid down as essential conditions that the innovation must not increase cost, decrease efficiency, or cause inconvenience to the public. With those principles in mind, the Public Service Board discussed the matter with heads of departments, and presented a report which the Government; has adopted. Those who will not be able to enjoy the privilege of a fivedays week will receive no extra emolument. 3429 3428 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory I understand that the sugar agreement has been completed and signed. In view of the sacrifices that are asked of the people, will the Prime Minister favorably, consider the imposition of an excise duty on sugar consumed in Australia, so that the national finances may derive some direct benefit from the agreement? 3429 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - Of course, the Government will consider any suggestion, but I cannot see how the people would be benefited by the imposition of an excise duty which would increase the cost of sugar. 3429 Mr. Theodore 3429 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - Will the Prime Minister inform the House whether there is any truth in the newspaper report that the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) is to be sent to London to attempt to re-adjust Australia's external indebtedness? 3429 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - No such decision has been reached. 3429 3429 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr KEANE asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What amount of overseas interest will require to be paid by Australia during the present financial year? What is the average rate of interest payable? 3429 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - £28,568,452. £4 15s. 3d. per cent. 3429 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr KEANE asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What steps have been taken to secure a reduction of interest on the overseas debts? What will be the financial gain to Australia if the Hoover plan is adopted? 3429 KVS 0 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - This is a matter for consideration after the plan of financial rehabilitation now before Parliament has been put into operation and the financial standing of Australia in the oversea markets has been restored. If the Hoover proposals are adopted, Australia will forgo her share of reparations for the present year amounting to £830,000. At. the same time, Australia will secure relief from interest payments during the present financial year on its indebtedness to the Government of the United Kingdom, amounting to £3,920,000. The net gain to Australia for the year will thus be £3,090,000. 3429 3429 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - What amount was paid by the Commonwealth Government as travelling allowances, during the financial year ended 30th June, 1931, to (a) His Excellency the Governor-General, (b) the Judges of the High Court, (c) Commonwealth Judges other than those of the High Court,(d) Ministers of the Crown, (e) senators and members of the House of Representatives, (f) members of the Public Works Committee,(g) members of the Public Accounts Committee, (h) heads of departments, (i) departmental secretaries, (j) ministerial secretaries, (k) members of the Tariff Board, and (l) all other Commonwealth employees ? 3429 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - The total amounts paid from travelling expenses votes are shown annually under appropriate headings in the Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure. As, however, to obtain the detailed information desired by the honorable member an exhaustive examination of the accounts of the various Commonwealth departments would be entailed, necessitating considerable expenditure, represented by the salaries, &c, of officers, I do not feel justified in authorizing the work to be proceeded with. 3429 Financial Assistance 3429 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr KEANE asked the Minister for Home Affairs, upon notice - What financial assistance has been gives to the Moonta copper mines by the Commonwealth Government? What further financial assistance is contemplated? 3430 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - The Government of South Australia utilized an amount of £5,000 out of the Commonwealth Government's unemployment grant for the purpose of assistance to Moonta mines. Senator Daly has been conferring with the Premier of South Australia in connexion with the matter, and his report will be considered at an early date. 3430 3430 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Has the Postal Department recently leased to any person a block of land at the corner of Murray and Queen streets, Colac? If so, to whom has this lease been made? What are the terms, annual rent, and length of lease? Were any, and, if so, what, tenders were called for leasing the land; if not, why not? Are there any special conditions attached to the lease? 3430 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow:- Yes. Mr. H. C. Sleigh. £78 per annum for two years certain, with an option of renewal for a further three years. No; the offer was regarded as a favorable one, and a prompt decision was essential as the applicant was considering other sites. Moreover, it was not considered that any benefit would result by inviting tenders; in fact, had this procedure been adopted in this instance, it is possible, as a consequence of the delay which would result, that no offers would have been received. No. The conditions are the same as those usually inserted in similar cases. 3430 3430 KIB 0 0 LONG, William Mr LONG asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Is it a fact that federal public servants were exempt from all State income taxation prior to 1907? In view of the fact that in the various States federal public servants are subject to special State taxation, will the Treasurer give consideration to this when imposing the proposed further taxation upon this body? If it is inevitable that the 20 per cent, reduction must be made in salaries, with a view to obtaining equality of treatment, will he include in the 20 per cent the various impositions by the States? 3430 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow:- Yes. This fact was kept in mind in framing the Financial Emergency Bill. Provision has been made in clause 17 of the Financial Emergency Bill to limit tha effect of any. increase in State taxation above that in force on the 30th June last. 3430 3430 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Crouch) has asked a series of questions upon notice regarding interest on government deposits, sales of exchange, and the note issue. These questions have been referred to the Commonwealth Bank for advice. 3430 3430 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Did the trading banks agree in association with the present economy plans to reduce their interest charge on overdrafts and advances? Have they yet done so; if so, what is the maximum interest to be charged by them? From what date did such reduced interest begin? Is it in the power of the Commonwealth to legislate in this direction? 3430 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - Representatives of the trading banks consulted by the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers in May and June last, expressed the view that interest charges on deposits, overdrafts and advances should be reduced on the adoption of the plan of financial rehabilitation proposed by the conference. These views were tentatively expressed by the representatives of the banks, and it was understood that the banks would finally consider the proposal at an early date. The Chairman of Directors of the Commonwealth Bank, at the request of the Prime Minister, recently convened a conference of representatives of the banks and savings banks. On the 1st July, the Chairman of the Commonwealth Bank advised that the following action was then decided on:- Commonwealth Bank. - Reduction of 1 per cent, in respect of both deposits and advances as from the 26th June, and the 1st July respectively. Trading banks. - Reduction of 1 per cent, in respect of deposit rates as from the 26th June. Immediate reduction of 1 per cent, on advances in necessitous cases, and gradual reduction generally. Commonwealth Savings Bank. - Reduction of 1 per cent. in respect of deposits as from the 1st July, and concurrently interest on securities held by the bank comprising municipal and similar loans, if not otherwise dealt with by legislative action will be voluntarily reduced by same amount conditionally that no rate will be less than 4 per cent. per annum. State Savings Bank of South Australia. - Reduction of interest rates by 1 per cent. as from the 1st July. It is not clear yet whether this applies to both deposits and securities. Western Australian Savings Bank. - Same as South Australia. State Savings Bank of Victoria. - No decision yet arrived at. See answer to No. 2. Yes. A bill dealing with interest charges was presented to Parliament some time ago. The Government decided, however, not to proceed with the bill if the banks were themselves prepared to make the desired reductions in interest charges. 3431 3431 K7U 0 0 CROUCH, Richard Mr CROUCH asked the Treasurer, upon notice - In order to avoid the expense of departmental audit, will he accept the certificate as to the sales tax from a licensed or duly certified auditor that the conditions of the bond have been complied with? Would such an acceptance mean increased expediency and economy? Is it a fact that the trading banks, after one year's experience of bond guarantees, decline to further continue such guarantees? Have the insurance companies in consequence raised their premiums on such bonds to 10 per cent. with a minimum premium of £1? Can he see his way, by regulation or otherwise, to obviate this additional tax on industry and trade? What has been the cost of administering the sales tax for the last twelve months? 3431 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow:- It is regretted this is impracticable. No. Not so far as is known to the Commissioner of Taxation. Banks are, however, requiring further fixed deposits equal to the amount of the fresh security which the present form of the Sales Tax Acts requires and, failing such further deposit, banks are declining to give the further guarantee. Nothing is known to the department on this heading. An amendment of the law to secure this result is awaiting presentation to Parliament at the first suitable opportunity. This information is being obtained. 3431 3481 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde .- On the 3rd July, the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Price) asked the following questions, upon notice: - In connexion with the importation of tea into the Commonwealth for the years 1928, 1929, and 1930, will he supply information showing (a) the total importation (in lb.) and (b) the total value of importations, from each of the following: - India, Ceylon, China, Java, Sumatra, and other countries? What is the duty on tea? What amount of revenue does the Government receive from tea? I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information: - . Figures relating to the imports of tea during calendar years are not available. The attached table shows imports during the nearest financial years to the years mentioned by the honorable member. The imports from Java and Sumatra are not recorded separately but are grouped under the heading " Netherlands East Indies " in the following table: - ' Tea - (a) In packets not exceeding 20 lb. net weight, per lb. fid. British preferential tariff;6d. intermedite tariff;6d. general tariff; (b) n.e.i., per lb., 4d. British preferential tariff; 4d. intermediate tariff; 4d. general tariff. Plus 4 per cent. primage duty. The figures of revenue for the past year on individual items are not yet available. The present duties have operated only since 6th November, 1930. 3432 Armaments. 3432 F4Q ALP 1 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - On the 19th June, the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Crouch) asked me the following questions, upon notice : - Are Italy, Poland, and France members of the League of Nations? Have these countries, under Article 8 of the Covenant, given the Australian Government full and frank information as to their armaments, military programmes, and warlike industries? Have the military forces of these countries increased or decreased since 1825? Has the Council of the League yet formulated any, and, if so, what, plans for the reduction of armaments? Has the Australian Government, as a member of the League, or any of its delegates at any convention of the League, made representations urging that that part of Article 8 which requires " the reduction of national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety " should be complied with ? Replies were furnished by me in regard to parts 1, 2, 4 and 5. I am now in a position to furnish the following reply in regard to part 3: - The budget expenditure of these countries on armaments shows an increase since 1925. A memorandum prepared by the department of Defence in connexion with the matter is being placed on the table of the library for the information of the honorable member. 3432 3432 L4X ALP 0 0 MOLONEY, Parker Mr PARKER MOLONEY - On the 14th May, the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the following questions, upon notice : - What were the prices f.o.b. for dried fruits to be sent to the East for the years 1929 and 1930, respectively? What were the prices charged for the same goods for sale in Australia for such years ? What were the prices realized in England for such goods and years, showing (a) the gross price realized; and (b) the net price returned to the producers in Australia? Is it a fact, as alleged, that Chinese importers in China could purchase in these years Australian dried fruits in England and pay the freight to China at a less cost than the dried fruits could he purchased here f.o.b. for China without the freight being charged ? What were the dates and the prices realized for the 1929 and 1930 seasons for dried fruits, particularizing the prices, varieties and places where such goods were sold by the Dried Fruits Board? What were the prices paid to the producers for such dried fruits, and what were the dates of such payments? What were the differences between the gross prices realized and the prices paid to the growers? Is it a fact that the firms of Walker and. Company, Wing Young and Company, and P. W. Heyman, of Melbourne, have cancelled sending dried fruits abroad owing to the impost of 30 per cent. being charged on the pries f.o.b. quoted on dried fruits? Is the addition of the exchange which is being added at the present time to the f.o.b. price of dried fruits and other products exported, likely to develop the overseas market, which the Commonwealth primary producers hope to make for themselves for future trade? I am now in a position to furnish the honorable member with the following replies:- The minimum f.o.b. prices fixed by the Dried Fruits Control Board for the shipment of Australian dried fruits to the East were as follows:- Terms - Demand draft less 5 per cent. rebate. The prices for similar varieties of dried fruits sold for consumption in Australia were: - 3. (a) The average gross price, per cwt., realized on sales in Great Britain were as follows : - The charges, &c, between the gross price realized in Great Britain and the sweat box return to the grower are estimated to aggregate 18s. per cwt. for sultanas and 16s. per cwt. for currants and lexias. The net return to the producer would be the gross price realized in Great Britain, less charges, plus the current rate of exchange. No. Details are not available as the functions of the Dried Fruits Control Board ' do not include the actual sale of dried fruits. These sales are effected by exporters through the usual trade channels. 6 and 7. See answer to No. 5. Cancellation of orders by the firms referred to has not been brought to the notice of the Department of Markets, nor has the Dried Fruits Board any knowledge of such action being taken by the individual exporters. The board deals with apnlications for licences which are available subject to general conditions which aim at securing to Australian producers of dried fruits the benefit of the exchange. The fact that the benefit of the present high rate of exchange is secured to the Australian producer as far as it is possible to do so has not retarded the demand for Australian products in oversea markets. At the present time oversea countries are rapidly absorbing the Australian surplus of wool, wheat, butter, meat, and fruit. 3433 3433 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - On the 3rd July the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) asked the following questions, upon notice: - What has been the amount paid by the Commonwealth in bounties from 1920 to 1931, inclusive, showing the industries for which the bounties were granted and the State in which the bounty was received? What amount has been expended by the Commonwealth in the Commonwealth Oil Refineries ? What amount has been expended by the Commonwealth in Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited? The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - l.- £423,177, including £375,001 for purchase of shares and £48,176 contribution by the Commonwealth towards losses in the early years. £350,000 for purchase of shares. An annual subsidy of £45,000 is payable to the company by the Commonwealth as a contribution towards the maintenance of the coastal and island radio stations, and the company pays the Commonwealth 30 per cent. of the revenue received by the company from such stations. The net cash payment by the Commonwealth on this account for 1930-31 is £33.000. 3434 Child Endowment - Allowances - War Pensions 3434 KVS ALP 1 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr THEODORE - On the 2nd July the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Hill.) asked the following questions, upon notice : - What is the number of Commonwealth public servants receiving child endowment? What is the amount so paid for the years ending 30th June, 1930 and 193.1 ? What was the total amount paid to Commonwealth public servants in travelling allowances, overtime, and any other allowances, including child endowment, for the years 1929-30 and 1930-31? How many Commonwealth public servants are in receipt of war pensions? Are any of these pensioners who are in receipt of pensions for their wives and families also receiving child endowment for their children? The answers to the honorable' member's questions are as follow: - The following information, in reply to questions 1 and 2, relates to the permanent staff under the Public Service Act for the year ended 30th June, 1930. Similar information for the year ended 30th June, 1931, is not yet available. 9,890. £263,043. The following information relates to permanent officers and other employees under the Public Service Act for the year ended 30th June, 1.930. Similar information for the year ended 30th June, 1931, will not be available for some time. This information is not readily available. It can only be secured by an examination of the war pensions files, and inquiry regarding the present occupations of war pensioners. In view of the expense which would be involved, it is regretted that the information desired cannot be furnished. 3434 papers The following papers were presented : - League of Nations - International Conference relating to Economic Statistics (November-December, 1928) - International Convention. Protocol to the International Convention. Final Act of the Conference. Air Force Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1931, No. 78. Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1931, No. 83. Gold Bounty Act- - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1931, No. 74. Naval Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1931, Nos. 79, 80, 81. Northern Australia Act - North Australia Commission - Fourth Annual Report, for the year . 1930. 3434 bill (No. 2). Motion (by Mr. Parker Moloney) agreed to - That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act relating to the marketing of wheat, and for other purposes. 3434 bill 3434 Debate resumed from the 3rd July (vide page 3408) on motion by Mr. Theodore - That the bill be now read a second time. 3434 KZO Kooyong 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM .- This bill is entitled, " a bill to make necessary provision for carrying out a plan agreed on by the Commonwealth and 'he States for meeting the grave financial emergency existing in Australia, reestablishing financial stability, and restoring industrial and general prosperity." 3434 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - A bill to bring in the millennium ! 3434 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - But it deals with only a part of the problem that confronts the Commonwealth. The Premiers' plan has as its object the reduction of expenditure by all the Australian Governments, the reduction of interest rates on public loans, the securing of additional revenue, the reduction of bank interest rates, and the reduction of interest rates on private mortgages. Since this bill provides only for the reduction of Commonwealth expenditure, it is obvious that it relates to only a portion of the plan which, in its turn, deals with only a portion of the problem which confronts the people of Australia. . I agree that the reduction of government expenditure contemplated by the bill is necessary as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of public credit. This expenditure must be reduced because of the obvious failure of the budget to produce the expected results. In his speech on the financial rehabilitation plan, the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) admitted that the Commonwealth revenue was short of expectations to the extent of approximately £21,400,000, less about £4,000,000 from the sales tax. There is a deficiency in customs of £14,000,000, and a shortage in direct taxation of £4,000,000. No previous Commonwealth budget has failed so disastrously. When it was introduced it was known that the position was extraordinarily difficult, and yet from the day of its operation it failed, and the position has become worse from month to month. In short, the budget was a striking tribute to the incapacity and incompetence of the Government, and in particular of the Treasurer. The supporters of the Government - ' those of them that are left in this House and in the press - have vociferously declared from day to day that at this particular juncture the Ministry, and the Treasurer especially, should be exempt from parliamentary or other criticism. Honorable members on this side are willing to assist the Government in carrying out this plan, because we regretfully acknowledge that it is necessary if we are to overcome the difficulties that beset us. But I am speaking for the Opposition as a whole when I say that we refuse to accept the view that the Government, the Treasurer, or any other member of the Ministry, is to be exempt from criticism at the present time. Our support of the plan, which the increasing seriousness of the financial position of the Commonwealth has forced the Government to adopt, must not be interpreted as support of the Government itself . 3435 KZ6 0 0 LACEY, Andrew Mr Lacey - When does the honorable member intend to move a no-confidence motion ? 3435 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - We shall do that so soon as we are satisfied that all honorable members now supporting the Government are prepared to vote in accordance with their real opinions. 3435 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - Move a no-confidence motion on this measure, and we will support it. 3435 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - My particular reason for making this statement is that, when speaking on the financial rehabilitation plan, the Treasurer said that had the legislation proposed by the Government been passed, and the Government been able fully to operate its financial proposals, there would have been no need to attack pensions or the basic wage. The honorable gentleman also went on to Bay that he believed in the plan which had been propounded at the Premiers Conference in February last. From this we are entitled to assume that, although the plan agreed upon at the conference in Melbourne a few weeks ago is now before the House, the Government still believes in the financial proposals submitted by the Treasurer at the previous conference in. February. Those proposals, I remind honorable members, included legislation for a fiduciary issue - an attempt ito settle our difficulties by politicallycontrolled inflation. For that reason, I wish to make it quite clear that, while the Opposition supports the plan now before the House, it maintains its uncompromising hostility to any proposal for politically controlled inflation. I say this because certain honorable gentlemen appear to believe that members in opposition now entertain such a kindly spirit for the Government that they are willing to feed out of its hand. I wish to make it quite plain that that is not the case; that in supporting this bill, we do not surrender our right of criticism within or outside this chamber. This plan is introduced as a means of meeting the grave financial emergency existing in Australia, of re-establishing financial stability, and of restoring industrial and economic prosperity. It was only in February last that the Treasurer said again what he had often said before. and his statement is printed on page 28 of the report of the February conference as follows: - If by merely reducing expenditure, we could rectify the position, and distribute over the whole of the community the burden that must be borne, that would be a simple expedient, and well within our power; but unfortunately the serious economic problem that exists to-day cannot be solved by those means. And ho went on to speak of the reduction of interest, and the desirability of bringing it about. 3436 KVS 0 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr Theodore - That was the difficulty then. 3436 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - This plan provides for a reduction in expenditure, and agreements have been made with the banks for a reduction of interest. We all know that the difficulties with which Australia and other nations are confronted are due largely to world . causes, and honorable members on this side of the Hou3e know that the imminence and probable operation of those world causes were pointed out to this Parliament, and to the people of Australia, by the last Government early in 1929. The present Government refused to pay any attention to those warnings, and the difficulties due to world causes have, in my opinion, been gravely accentuated by its policy, or lack of policy. The present plan is the result of a decision of the Loan Council and the Premiers Conference made in February last. The decision was then strongly opposed by the Treasurer, because he again propounded his policy of a fiduciary note issue. Now, if we are to give his words their face value, he says that there would be no need for any of the proposals in this plan if his February proposals had been adopted. I cannot at this stage review the whole of the Government's disastrous policy, but I point out that the Government's inflation policy has in itself had a great deal to do with the development of the present unfortunate position. It has contributed to the present lack of confidence in governments and government finance. As recently as the 18th of June last, in the speech to which I have referred, the Treasurer, speaking, we may assume, on behalf of the Government, professed himself as still an advocate of the inflationary policy previously endorsed by the Government. Subsequent to the February conference, a fiduciary notes bill was introduced into this House, and after its rejection, the Prime Minister said that the Government would go on to a double dissolution on that issue. That statement has not, in explicit terms, been withdrawn. The present plan cannot work alongside a policy of inflation. The two things are contrary, and entirely opposed to each other. There is no surer way of aggravating the difficulties which exist to-day than to pursue the Government's February policy, which apparently has now been reaffirmed. The surest way of reducing pensions and wages is to bring about inflation under political auspices. I go so far as to say that one of the conditions of the restoration of prosperity is the abandonment of this policy of politically controlled inflation. Until the Treasurer spoke the other day I thought that the Government had abandoned it, not that it was keeping the inflation policy up its sleeve, as it were, for possible production on a future occasion. I believed this because, when the Leader of of the Opposition (Mr. Lyons), Senator Pearce, and myself attended the Premiers Conference in Melbourne, this question was raised, and the Leader of the Opposition said that any conversion scheme would, he feared, be gravely prejudiced if there were still a prospect of inflation as a government policy. He asked the Prime Minister whether he was prepared to make a declaration of the Government's policy in regard to the matter. At page 132 of the report of the conference, the Prime Minister is reported to have replied to the honorable member for Wilmot in these words - 3436 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons, my last sentence was - " If a satisfactory plan can bc secured it should be the financial policy of every government." I had thought that this was the financial policy, and the whole relevant financial policy, of this Government, and that, the financial stability of Australia, was no longer threatened by a policy of inflation. I should like to obtain from the Government some statement modifying, or, 1 hope, contradicting, what the Treasurer has said, because I fear that if the Government is going on with inflation as a policy there is small hope of economic restoration in Australia. 3437 KVS 0 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr Theodore - The honorable member is trying to give a new significance to my words. He has spoken three times since I made that speech, but has not made any previous reference to what I said. 3437 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I received the reprint of the Treasurer's speech, I think, on Thursday last. I have read it carefully since then, and I find in it the statement that the Treasurer " does not want anybody to run away with the idea that the Government is making an admission that the policy propounded and placed 'before the Premiers Conference in February is unsound." I take that as meaning that the Treasurer maintains that the policy was sound, but that, unfortunately, the Government was prevented from carrying it out. That appears to me to be a fair interpretation to place upon his words. 3437 KVS 0 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr Theodore - Is the honorable member attacking our honesty in regard to the present plan? 3437 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - The success of the present plan will, I fear, be compromised so long as the statement stands that the Government still believes in currency inflation as a policy. The prosperity of the Commonwealth is seriously prejudiced by statements such as that. It is most unfortunate that the Government should take the opportunity of the introduction of this measure to re-announce its belief in the policy of a fiduciary note issue. This bill deals only with a portion of what is necessary to restore prosperity in Australia. Other things obviously must be done. The tariff has to be reconsidered from the point of view both of revenue - which is £14,000,000 down - and of protection. I repeat that, in my opinion, Australia's overgrown system of industrial regulation has fastened manacles and fetters upon our industries, which make it extremely difficult for our goods to compete in the world's markets. I add that it is useless for us to fix wages so high that they cannot be paid, and that, consequently, thousands are thrown out of work. Our whole system of industrial regulation must be reconsidered before we oan get on a sound footing again. I accept the necessity for the reduction of governmental expenditure pro posed in this bill. I do so under each of the headings mentioned - salaries, wages and pensions, including the maternity allowance, which, although not a pension, s an allied payment, and also invalid, old-age and Avar pensions. I. welcome the proposed small saving in connexion with the High Court, and I agree that there must be a reduction in bounties. I agree with the proposals contained in this measure, not, as I have already said, because I like them, but because, with the Treasurer, I believe that they are imposed upon us by an inexorable and inescapable necessity. We cannot afford to continue to make these payments on the basis on which we have been paying them. These payments were fixed on a prosperity basis, and we cannot afford to keep them up in the present difficult time. The difference between our economic position to-day and that of a few years ago is reflected in the index figures of retail prices contained in the last Quarterly Summary of Australian Statistics, for March, 1931. Taking the Statistician's index figures, which are generally accepted as indicating the cost of living - although I am aware that they are more useful for comparative than for absolute purposes - we find on page 74 a statement showing the average amount necessary in the periods specified to purchase certain commodities in each capital city, and in all the capital cities averaged. The figures show that food, groceries, and housing, which cost, on the average, £1 during the five-year period from 1923 to 1927, cost only 17s. lOd. for the first quarter of 1931. That indicates that there has been a drop in costs since 1927. 3437 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - On a few articles. 3437 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I have said that the figures are useful principally for the purposes of comparison. The Statistician's figures give a fair indication of prices; I do not say that they are an absolute guide, or that they are the measure of the diminution of costs in any one household. They are, however, the only standard of comparison that we have. A substantial reduction in costs is going on day by day, and the reductions proposed to be made will further reduce costs. To the extent that the reductions now proposed correspond to the reduction in the cost of living, they are not reductions in the values received by individuals, so far as such individuals spend their money in purchasing the items upon which these index figures are based. The position is that to-day 17s.10d. buys articles of the value that it required 20s. to buy during the period 1923-27, or 19s.10d. in 1921. 3438 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Is clothing included? 3438 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - No. One of the criticisms levelled against the index figures is that they do not include the cost of clothing. The reasons for the omission have been given many times. Not only must there be a reduction in many items of our expenditure corresponding to the reduction in the cost of living, but also, owing to the very real diminution in the national income, we must be content with less this year than satisfied us in 1925, when it cost 20s. to buy what 17s.10d. will purchase to-day. In order to put Australia on a sound basis, and to bring down the cost of living, the reduction of expenditure must be greater than the reduction in the cost of living; otherwise we shall at best remain stationary. Accordingly, I do not complain of, although I cannot say that I am pleased to be associated with, these reductions. 3438 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - They conform to views expressed by the honorable gentleman about nine months ago. 3438 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - Yes. Excepting in the case of pensions, it will befound that this bill bears a marked resemblance to proposals which I made, as Leader of the Opposition, in July of last year when speaking on the budget. 3438 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN - The honorable gentleman did not then advocate any reduction of interest. 3438 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I repeat that, generally, this bill, excepting insofar as it proposes to reduce pensions, corresponds to suggestions which I made last July. The Postmaster-General (Mr. A. Green) says that I did not then say anything about a reduction of interest. That may be so. I certainly have never suggested direct legislative action to reduce the interest of which complaint has been made - particularly bank interest and interest on fixed deposits and overdrafts. I am glad that wise counsels have prevailed, and that such legislative action is not now proposed, but that the reduction of interest is being left to agreements between the banks and the governments, or to declarations of policy by the banks. I have always said that it is impossible to control the effective rate of interest by any legislation, whatever. I repeat that statement to-day, and shall give my reasons for it. It is obvious that, so long as there is a possibility of purchasing 5 per cent. Commonwealth stocks at £60, a man who buys them obtains a return of more than 5 per cent. on his investment. Legislative action to reduce interest tends to depress the price of stocks, and, therefore, to increase interest. No legislative action can prevent the holders of stock from selling them for the best price they can get; and, therefore, no legislative action can determine interest rates in the general market. 3438 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - On the honorable member's premises the plan must fail, unless the banks agree to do what the honorable gentleman says ought not to be done. 3438 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - Not at- all. With the conversion loan scheme, the agreement of the banks to reduce interest, and the hoped-for restoration of confidence, which will increase the prices of government stocks, the interest rate ought to go down. That I shall welcome. ButI am unable to approve legislation introduced with the avowed object of depressing interest rates, because that will necessarily bring about the lowering of prices of stock, and, therefore, increase interest rates. It is in the hope that the scheme will not work that way that I am prepared to support it. 3438 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - It will work out in a way which will be the very opposite of that desired by the honorable gentleman. 3438 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I sincerely hope that it will not. Obviously, there is room for difference of opinion with regard to the various proposals of the bill, but these can best be dealt with in committee. I began by stating the divergence of the opinions of myself and the Treasurer. Let me- adjust the balance by approving very strongly what was said by the honorable gentleman in his recent broadcast speech, as reported in the press on the- 3rd instant. In that statement the Treasurer expressed, clearly and accurately, the reasons which prompted the introduction of this measure. The report reads - The time had come for vigorous action - to take stock of the damage and to set about building up and repairing. Australia had suffered an enormous loss due to the depression. As a country we could not escape that loss. We could not get rid of it in any way. We had to face it ourselves. Any one who thought that old wage rates could continue in these circumstances was living in a world of illusion. Those, unfortunately, are the facts, and the bill is a genuine effort to deal with the situation. My criticism of the Government, particularly in relation to its monetary policy, with which I began my speech, does not extend to the details of this measure. I recognize that in bringing down the bill, Ministers have faced a task which would be a difficult and unpleasant one for any administration. I shall not, by meticulous criticism of this or that detail, do anything to lessen the chance of carrying into effect the substance of theproposals embodied in the measure. Mr.LAZZARINI (Werriwa) [3.45].- The bill before the House, like its associated measure with which we have dealt, and those which are to follow, will play its part in further depressing the country economically. My colleagues and I again place on record our opposition to these proposals, and are prepared to leave the future to decide whether we are right or wrong. This and the other measures represent the action of a government that has been stampeded, and speaks eloquently of the scattered thoughts of those who sponsor them. The present depression is not peculiar to Australia. It exists in almost every other country in the world, and is continuing, mainly because those in charge refuse to face stern realities, and to get to the root of the trouble. I havehere a copy of a letter that was sent from Canada to the Premier of New South Wales, which discloses that matters are just as bad in that country as they are here. The Government, Ministers, and economists, in that country are behaving similarly to those of the same class here; they are running around ineffectually, endeavouring to prove that black is white, and vice versa. The letter, which is from the United Farmers of Canada, Saskatchewan Section, is short, interesting and apposite, is as follows: - Dear Sir, - One of the lodges of our organization, namely, the Fennell Hall Local Lodge, at North Battleford, Saskatchewan,passed a resolution at a meeting held recently, requesting me to express to you appreciation for the human stand taken by yourself recently, when, according to press reports, you stated publicly that you would not take money from labour and farmers to be given to bondholders. The members of our organization realize that it requires a man of courage and strong convictions to take such a stand against the capitalistic exploiters, and they wish to advise you that your . action is being noted in far-off Canada. We, the farmers of Western Canada, are living in troublesome times. Most of us are facing bankruptcy; our land is covered with mortgages. The prices of farm products is the lowest in history, which, of course, makes it impossible to pay either taxes or even interest payments on our loans. Our streets are crowded with unemployed men and women, and to cap it all, the powers that be, i.e., both provincial and federal governments seem to be going around in circles holding conferences, and accomplishing very little by way of a solution to the economic problem. It is, therefore, a great pleasure for us to convey our most sincere appreciation to you for the commendable stand which you have taken. Wishing you every success, Yours very truly, Frank Eliason, Secretary. This afternoon the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham) endeavoured to prove that there is still an " opposition " in the House. I do not wish to be thought ungenerous, but I believe that there was a suspicion of stage management about the whole affair. It was an endeavour to make the people believe that a sham fight at least was going on in this chamber between what was at one time a Labour government, and its conservative opponents. I guarantee that after this plan has been eventually bludgeoned through by the votes of honorable members opposite, if the Government manifests a desire to send the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) to Great Britain, the Leader of the Opposition will do his utmost to bring about the fulfilment of that desire. This bill provides for, among other things, the reduction of the basic wage of Commonwealth public servants. The Treasurer proposes arbitrarily to reduce that wage to £3 10s. a week. He cannot justify such' a reduction with any figures or any data at his disposal. It will be the lowest wage operating in any State of the Commonwealth, as well as in the Commonwealth itself. This, the parliamentary fixation of wages, is an action that all parties in this House said that they would never tolerate. Of ali the measures that are to give effect to the Melbourne plan, this is the one under which the real sacrifices are to be made. The Prime Minister and the Treasurer have been repeating, with nauseous frequency, the cry, "equality of sacrifice ". Let us analyse- some of the probable effects of this bill, so as to see whether there will be equality of sacrifice. I had a general idea of the meaning of the term " equality of sacrifice ", but out of curiosity I consulted "Webster's dictionary, from which I learned that the definition of " equality " is " a state of being equal ; a sameness, an evenness ". Turning to "sacrifice" I found that it relates, in a number of forms, to devotion to a deity. The deity before whose high altar these sacrifices are to be made is Mammon. The term is also defined as the giving up of something with loss and suffering. Let us apply the definitions of these two terms to the reductions that are to he made under this bill. Assuming that ministerial allowances are equal in the case of all Ministers, each of these gentlemen receives an allowance of £1,177 per annum. To that must- be added the £1,000 per annum which he receives as a member. 3440 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - It has been reduced to £S00. 3440 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - Allowing for that deduction, each Minister receives £1,977. When the proposed reductions have been made he will receive approximatly £1,500, which is equal to £30 a week, compared with the 17s. 6d. a week that is to be paid to the old-age pensioner. That is one example of equality of sacrifice! Then these gentlemen can recoup themselves to a large extent by way of ministerial expenses. I know well that when travelling they do not spend anything like the amount that they are allowed. Therefore, as I said in a former speech, what they lose on the merry-go-round they can make up on the razzle-dazzle. The old age pensioner has not that opportunity. I come to those highly-paid gentlemen who are Justices of the High Court of Australia. I have read the bill carefully, and I cannot see in it any provision for the reduction of their salaries. Reference is made to their pensions, and it is proposed to reduce the cost of the High Court by limiting the amount of travelling done by it; but, so far as I can see, the salaries of the judges are not mentioned. 3440 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - They are not to unreduced. If the honorable member will read section 72 of the Constitution lie will learn the reason. 3440 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - When I interjected during the Treasurer's speech he said that they were to bo reduced. 3440 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - -I am acquainted with the provisions of the Constitution. I have not had an opportunity to read the whole of the report of the Premiers Conference held in Melbourne, but. according to the press, when the Premier of New South Wales asked whether judges' salaries were to be reduced be was answered in the affirmative. 3440 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - It cannot be done byordinary legislation. 3440 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - The Chief Justice of the High Court is paid £3,500 a year, or £70 a week. I invite honorable members to compare that with the 17s. 6d. a week that is to be paid to an old-age pensioner, and to say where is the sameness, the evenness of the sacrifice. The other judges of the High Court each receive £3,000 a year, or £60 a week. J Judged according to their value to the community, I suppose that many old-age pensioners have, during their lifetime, in pioneering and developing this country, performed incomparably greater services than have been, or ever will be, performed by these gentlemen. 3440 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Did not the honorable member, assist to place two superfluous members on the High Court Bench ? 3440 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - That has nothing to do with this case. I would put three more there if I could get men who would not slash the' wages of the workers of this country, and I would consider their services cheaply obtained. There is no humbug as to where I stand. I am prepared to say what I think with regard to these matters, either here or elsewhere. I would deal with these wage-slashers as they deserve, had I the power to do so. 3441 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - When has the High Court dealt with the question of wages? 3441 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - It deals with appeals. Furthermore, all the trouble to-day in the ranks of the members of the Waterside Workers Federation is due to the action of the High Court, and was made possible because one man, who was put there for a certain purpose, did not do his job properly. 3441 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - That is a very serious reflection upon the High Court. 3441 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - Then I withdraw it, without waiting to be called on by Mr. Speaker to do so. I should have made none of these remarks had not honorable members opposite made what they considered were smart interjections. Those interjections do not frighten me. Then there is the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, who receives £5,000 per annum and £3 3s. for every day that he travels on the business of the bank away from it3 head office. His salary is to be reduced to £3,778, or £76 a week. Some of our old-age pensioners have done work of a much more valuable nature than that of the present Governor, or management, of the Commonwealth Bank. It is largely on account of the conservative policy adopted by this institution that Australia is in its present condition. The Director-General of Postal Services managed to earn only a few hundred pounds a year before he found Australia to be a Utopia for him. 3441 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr Eldridge - Seven hundred pounds per annum. 3441 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - He now gets £4,000 per annum. He will be required to give up £1,000, and come down to about £60 a week. Many of the secretaries to departments draw £2,000 a year. Their salaries will be reduced to about £1,550, which will still leave them about £30 a week,, as against the 17s. 6d. a week for old-age pensioners. 3441 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - What about members? 3441 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I had intended to refer to members' salaries in a few moments, but I will deal with them now. Members are to be reduced from £1,000 to £800 a year, or about £16 a week. Compare that with the old-age pensioners' pittance of 17s. 6d. a week ! I now come to the proposal to deduct ls. a week from the allowance made to invalid pensioners in hospitals and sanatoria. This Government will soon be taking the pennies from the blind men's boxes. The inmates of hospitals and sanatoria have been granted 5s. Cd. a week in the past, to enable them to purchase such comforts as pipes and tobacco. I have received a letter of disgusted protest from inmates of the Waterfall Sanatorium, which is in my electorate. They cannot understand a Labour government taking ls. a week from their paltry allowance. Most of these men have worked for the greater part of their lives in mines, or have been engaged in excavation work in connexion with the sewerage system of Sydney, but they are now thrown upon the industrial scrap-heap. Most of them are dying with lung trouble. No cloaking over an act of this kind by words, at which the Treasurer is an adept, will ever remove the shame of reducing the allowance of these men. Is this to be their reward for contracting a deadly disease while helping to provide one of the greatest services that engineering science can give to a nation? This one act destroys every vestige of claim that members of this Ministry have to be called Labour men, o.- even decent democrats. It leaves them in the rut of Tory conservatism, and the sooner the electors have an opportunity to destroy the Government, the better it will be for the country, and for the good name of the Labour movement. An attack is to be made on the home of the old-age pensioner. A home valued >at £810 at the present time is not a palace; it can " -vide only bare necessities. But this Government proposes to reduce the value of the home in the possession of which an aged person is entitled to receive the pension, without a special deduction to £500. Any value above that sum is to be regarded as property in the possession of the pensioner, and a corresponding reduction of the pension is to be made. The Treasurer was sufficiently generous not to include a pensioner's furniture and personal clothing in assessing the value of his home. The reduction is too great, considering how high land values are, particularly in the cities. If the old home, in which an aged couple have reared their family, is worth over £500,and if they do not wish to lose their pension, all sentiment must be thrown to the wind; they must sell out, and buy a cheaper dwelling. They have no court of appeal, except the Valuer-General. 3442 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Yes, they have. 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - The honorable member who interjects should not try to salve his conscience in this matter. One time a radical and a rebel, he now supports this stuff that the Treasurer brings down. He ought to be ashamed of himself. 3442 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Tell the truth. 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - If the honorable member further interjects, he will get all that he is apparently looking for. Many pensioners will be compelled to sell out, and buy cheaper homes, which will enable the spieler, the land agent, and the " go-getter " to make an unfair profit over the transaction at the cost of the pensioner. This reduction is an everlasting disgrace to a Cabinet that still has the audacity to call itself a Labour Ministry. When I think of the traditions of Labour, and the fight that we have had in the past to obtain the conditions that the workers enjoy to-day, I am utterly ashamed of this Government. 3442 JOG 0 0 BAYLEY, James Mr Bayley - The Labour party did very little toward the provision of old-age pensions. 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I claim to have done more for the Labour movement, without remuneration, during half of my lifetime, than the honorable member did for the section that he represents, during the period when he was striving to gain a seat in this House. I am prepared to welcome any investigation regarding my services in the interests of the Labour movement. 3442 JOG 0 0 BAYLEY, James Mr Bayley - I ref erred to the Labour party, and not to the honorable member personally; 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - The Labour party was responsible for the payment of the original old-age pension. The pension was first provided by the Reid Government in 'New South Wales, which, as every one knows, was put in office and kept there for the specific purpose of introducing the first pensions legislation. The Lyne Government, which was in office prior to the Reid Government, refused to introduce a bill to provide for the payment of the pension, and when Mr. Reid was asked by a Labour deputation whether he would do so if Labour supported an administration led by him, he said that he would "give the pension as a Christmas box ", and he did so. Honorable members opposite who deny to the Labour party the real credit for the establishment of our old-age and invalid pension system, talk with their tongue in their cheek. 3442 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr Marr - Did the Labour Government ever provide for an increase in the old-age and invalid pension? 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - Anti-Labour governments have increased the pension, but only to the extent of the bare increases in the cost of living. On every occasion when an increase has been proposed, the Labour party has endeavoured to make it greater than the Government of the day desired. When the Bruce Page Government, for instance, proposed an increase of 2s. 6d. to make the total 17s. 6d., the Labour party endeavoured to make the increase 5s. We always went one better than our opponents. Yet a. government which dares to call itself a Labour Government, is now proposing a reduction in the rate of pension. 3442 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr Marr - Why not put the Government out of office? 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - We would do so in five minutes if we could on this issue. We have had no opportunity to put the Government out of office since it has taken this dastardly action. 3442 10000 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin - The honorable member must withdraw the word " dastardly ". 3442 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I withdraw it. ] would not have used it except for the interjection of the honorable member for Parkes. By the taking of this action the Government has left every principle and tradition of the Labour party behind it. Working men who could ill afford it. contributed their pennies, threepenny bits, and sixpences to the fighting fund for the election which resulted in the return of Labour to power with the largest majority any single party has ever had; and I am ashamed to say that the reward that is being given for their sacrifices is the betrayal of the principles of the Labour party. There are many former stalwarts of the industrial movement at present in the Waterfall Sanitorium who are to-day watching with amazement the destruction of all the ideals of the Labour party. 3443 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - What point is the honorable member trying to make? 3443 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I am attacking the Government for its dastardly act in reducing the amount of pension payable to our old-age and invalid pensioners. 3443 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must withdraw the word " dastardly and I ask him not to use it again. 3443 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I withdraw the word. The members of the group to which I belong will not attempt to amend this bill, for they regard every provision of it as anathema. We shall oppose the measure at every stage. The bill, which is negative in every respect, strikes a vital blow at some of the sacred principles and traditions fdr the maintenance of which the Australian Labour Party has fought since its inception. It is proposed to reduce the maternity allowance from £5 to £4, and to discontinue the payment of it altogether in cases where the income of the applicant and her husband exceeds £260 per annum. The Prime Minister himself gave reasons why it will be difficult to give full effect to this provision. He referred to the cost of making inquiries to discover whether the income of the applicant was within the limit of £260 per annum. In my opinion, it will cost nearly as much to make these inquiries as it would cost to pay the allowance to all applicants, irrespective of income. I object to this provision because the inquisitorial formula which must be observed in respect to the granting of old-age and invalid pensions will be made to apply in the case of applications for the maternity allowance. I can make no complaint about the asking of these numerous questions, because the law requires it; but I consider that all citizens, irrespective of their income, should be entitled to the pension. If the Government felt that it was necessary to do so, it could impose extra taxation in the case of persons with substantial incomes, and so ensure the return of the money to the Treasury.' But while the law stands as it does, it is undoubtedly necessary to ask a certain number of questions of the applicants for the pension. I object, however, to the asking of these questions during the very period in a mother's life when she should not be disturbed and upset by such inquiries. The introduction of thi3 principle into our maternity allowance legislation is entirely wrong, and no government responsible for. it is entitled, for a single moment, to be regarded as a Labour government. This Government should no longer pretend to stand for the idealism and principles of the Labour movement. The Treasurer indulged in more characteristic word-spinning when he referred to the payment of living allowances to certain war pensioners. If the . honorable gentleman had dealt openly and straightforwardly with the subject, he .would have said that the Government intended to discontinue the payment of these allowances in certain cases; but he took the more round-about course, and said that it intended to regard the allowances as part of the pension. This, of course, means that certain war pensioners will be deprived of their allowances. The honorable gentleman could not have justified the straight-out discontinuance of the payment of these allowances, so he did not say in plain language what he intended to do. 3443 JZK 0 0 COLEMAN, Percy Mr Coleman - The returned soldiers themselves made certain proposals. 3443 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - Certain conservative individuals who control various soldier organizations have made certain proposals. I do not think that the rank and file of the returned soldiers had ah opportunity to express an opinion. I object to the proposals of the Government for the reduction of the salaries and wages payable to persons in its employ. In my opinion, the action of the Government in this regard is entirely out of accord with the arbitration policy of the Labour party. Labour fought an election about eighteen months ago on the arbitration policy of the Bruce-Page Government. That Government dared to interfere with our arbitration system, and, in consequence, was defeated on the floor of the House by the Labour party, with the assistance of certain former government supporters, or semi-supporters. An appeal was subsequently made to the people, and Labour was returned to power with an overwhelming majority. The party has since been wrecked, and the policy on which it was returned has be.come a thing of shreds and patches. This Government has shown its utter incompetence and inability to control the affair's of the nation. Opposition members interjecting, 3444 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - At one moment honorable members opposite thirst for the blood of the Government, and at the next they fight for it like mad mullahs. When this measure is enacted, Commonwealth public servants and others in the employ of the Commonwealth Government will lose the privileges which they now enjoy under the arbitration system, privileges of which the members of this Government said they would be deprived if the Bruce-Page Government were returned to power at the last general election. As a result of the action which the Government proposes to take in interfering with awards of the Arbitration Court and in laying its hands upon the basic wage, a precedent is being established which will be followed by the capitalistic institutions, and, particularly, the financial institutions, of this country. The Government is adopting a principle which may be useful when we have a " dinkum " Labour Government in office. . This Government has adopted a policy which even antiLabour Governments have not had the courage to introduce. It has remained for this alleged Labour Government to interfere with the basic wage, to reduce the invalid and old-age and war pensions, and the conditions under which the maternity allowance is to be paid. The Government has adopted the policy which conservative judges of the Arbitration Court would not tolerate. I hope that when a real Labour Government occupies the treasury bench- 3444 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - That will not be for twenty years. 3444 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - The honorable member is as inaccurate in that calcula tion as he was when he said that he would win the Warringah seat by 10,000 votes, and squeezed in with only a few votes to spare. This bill is a scandal, a disgrace and a degradation- 3444 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Those words are unparliamentary, and must be withdrawn. 3444 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I withdraw them. In conclusion, I shall repeat what I said in speaking to the second reading of another measure - that this is Labour's day of degradation and disgrace. 3444 KXT Gippsland 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON .- The members of the Country party will support the 'Government in carrying out the decisions reached at the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers held in Melbourne, which are embodied in this bill. We regard this measure as in the nature of a draught of nauseous medicine, which Australia must take as a first step towards its financial recovery, and we think that if we spurn this bitter draught, it will intensify the malady. A sick child is not restored to health by a weak or indulgent nurse who gives heed to the complaint of the child that the doctor's medicine is nasty, instead of insisting that the medicine shall be swallowed. I hope that when a vote is taken on the second reading of this bill there will not be in this chamber too many whose attitude will be that of the weak and indulgent nurse. Eight months ago, I spoke in this chamber of the need foi- taking this medicine in much the doses the Government is now prescribing. 3444 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - The honorable member advocated a 30 per cent, reduction. 3444 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - Nothing of the kind. I advocated a 20 per cent, reduction on all controllable expenditure, and I further said that if the Government did not take its courage in its hands we might get into such an unsatisfactory financial position that even a bigger sacrifice would be inescapable. I said that such a reduction was inevitable, and I believe that had the treatment been undertaken sooner it would have been better for the patient. Eleven precious months have passed since, the previous conference of August last, and during that time we have been financially slipping backwards at a tremendous rate. Even if the reductions in Commonwealth and State expenditure agreed upon at the last Melbourne conference are made, we shall still not restore budgetary equilibrium. For the financial year just closed, the deficits of the Commonwealth and the States amount to over £30,000,000, almost half of which will be the deficit of the Commonwealth. We are also told that if the Commonwealth and States were to continue their expenditure as at present for the current financial year, there would be a further deficit on the 30th June next of approximately £40,000,000. If the reductions proposed are made, the position will be only partially met. \ Quorum formed.] The effect of the reductions which are being made will only bridge, to a comparatively small extent, the tremendous gap which lies between our present revenue and our expenditure. Some honorable members have said that if success attends the proposals of Mr. Hoover for an international war debt moratorium, and Australia is by this means saved £3,000,000 of interest on war debts, certain reductions need not bo made. I point out that with all the reductions proposed, even with the benefit of the remission of war debt interest, which I trust we shall get, and notwithstanding heavy additional taxation, we shall still have many millions of pounds to add to last year's deficit of £30,000,000 for the Commonwealth and the States. To those who say that the Public Service reductions should be confined entirely to- the most highly-paid officers, whom some describe as the " tall poppies," a most striking answer is to be found in the graph which has been circulated and which gives the relative proportions of the different salary groups to the total salaries bill of the Commonwealth. It shows how futile it would be to bring about the 20 per cent, reduction of public service expenditure agreed upon at the Premiers Conference in Melbourne recently by reducing only the salaries of the higher-paid officers. If all the officers in the Commonwealth Public Service drawing over £500 a year worked for nothing the result would be a saving of less than 10 per cent. in the Commonwealth salaries bill. If we adopted the ideas of some of the misguided gentlemen who sit in the corner opposite, and of the notorious Premier of New South Wales, whose disciples they are, and chopped off all salaries over £500 a year, the result in the Commonwealth service would be a saving of only 2^ per cent., whereas the Premiers Conference decisions require a saving of eight times that amount. The graph also shows that Commonwealth Public Service salaries up to £399 a year account for 77.7 per cent, of the total salaries bill, and salaries up to £499 for 90.1 per cent. Salaries of £500 and over represent less than 10 per cent, of the total. When, as a nation, we are compelled to save in millions, it must be obvious that every one must bear a share, and that it is impossible to obtain a sufficient reduction by dealing only with the higher paid officials in the Commonwealth Public Service. If the man on the basic wage outside the Public Service has been compelled to lose 10 per cent, of his wages in actual cut, plus a greater amount than that due to the reduced cost of living index figures, making the total reduction he has suffered over 20 per cent., surely no one inside the Service should regard himself as sacrosanct. I feel sure that there is no honorable member who does not regret very much indeed the necessity to reduce invalid and old-age pensions. Less than eight years ago the pension rate was 15s. a week. At that time revenues were abundant, prices were higher than they are to-day, and the cost of living was dearer. The country could then afford to pay a higher rate, and the Bruce-Page Government felt fully justified in raising the rate from 15s. to 17s. 6d. a week. And two years later, when revenues were still good, and the cost of living still comparatively dear, the same Government again raised the pension to the level of £1. Now, however, when the nation is immeasurably poorer than it was a few years ago, and the cost of living has, to a certain extent, come down, a reverse proceeding on the part of the Government of the day is inescapable. The money cannot be found to continue at the old rate. But what will make it easier for the old people is the fact that the cost of living is to-day lower than it was in 1923 when the pension was increased from 15s. to 17s. 6d. a week. In that year the index figure for food, groceries, and housing, the- three factors upon which wages are fixed, was 1805, whereas for the first quarter of this calendar year it was 1546. There has been a considerable drop. 3446 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - What does the honorable member regard as a considerable drop? 3446 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - A drop from 1805 to 1546, which means that with the present reduction the pensioner will be better off than he was when he was formerly receiving 17s. 6d., although he may not be quite so well off as he is to-day with a pension of £1. The small bondholder who has an income no larger than that of a married old-age pensioner couple is to be reduced by a very much higher percentage. I trust that if the Commonwealth finances at some future time permit us to restore the invalid and old age pension to £1, something will also be done for the small bondholder who is keeping himself independent of the pension, but is being hit harder than the pensioner. 3446 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - The .honorable member does not seem to be able to get over the hit at the bondholder. 3446 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - During the course of his speech the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) claimed for the' party to which he belongs a very substantial part of the credit for the granting of old-age pensions. 3446 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - The honorable member cannot deny it. 3446 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - I did not wish to claim for any particular party special credit for the granting or increasing of pensions, but since the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) seems to claim some special credit in that regard for his own party, I shall give him in brief the history of old-age pension legislation - how these pensions came to be paid, and when the different increases were made. Legislation providing for Commonwealth old-age and invalid pensions was first proposed by a Liberal Government, which went out of office before that legislation could be put into effect. The Labour Government which succeeded held office for only a short period, and it also had no time to put pension proposals into operation. Another Liberal Government then took office, and provided for an old-age pension at the rate of 10s. a week. That rate of pension continued until 1916, when just prior to going to the country the Labour Government then in office increased the pension to 12s. 6d. a week. Subsequently, when the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) was Prime Minister, and during his absence in Great Britain, the Right Honorable W. A. Watt, who was then acting Prime Minister, moved to increase the rate of pensions from 12s. 6d. to 15s. a week. Two more increases in the pension were made during the administration of the Bruce Page Government. Although, therefore, honorable members opposite may claim some credit for giving or increasing the' pension, what has been done is substantially to the credit of those on this side of the House. The honorable member for Werriwa referred to the judiciary and the salaries of its members. I understand that there are certain constitutional difficulties in the way of reducing those salaries, but, if that be the case, I hope that these legal gentlemen will offer to make a sacrifice in conformity with that made by other sections of the community. The remarks of the honorable member for Werriwa about the cost of the judiciary came from a quarter from which they were not to be expected, because only a little while ago 'that honorable member was a member of the caucus which compelled the present Government, practically at the point of the party bayonet, to appoint two additional High Court judges, although the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General both considered that at that time they would be superfluous. Honorable members in the ministerial corner who are complaining about the payment of £60 a week to members of the judiciary, were responsible for adding to that expense by insisting on unnecessary appointments being made when the Prime Minister was in Great Britain. Those honorable members, if they refresh their minds by reading the cables sent by the Prime Minister, will know that the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General pleaded with the caucus not to make these appointments until their return. The Prime Minister pointed out in his cables that the appointments were being made just at the beginning of a long vacation, when they were less necessary than at any other time. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) and the honorable member for Werriwa must take their full share of responsibility for those appointments, and for adding unnecessarily to the cost of the judiciary. 3447 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - That argument is too thin. 3447 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - I do not know whether the honorable member for Melbourne was also a party to this little plot. 3447 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I thought that it was tune that some decent men were appointed to the judiciary. The previous Government appointed a very bad lot of men. 3447 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - I submit that the interjection of the honorable member for Melbourne is a reflection upon our judiciary, and should be withdrawn. 3447 10000 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr McGrath - I ask the honorable member for Melbourne to withdraw the remark to which objection has been taken. 3447 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - If it is unparliamentary, I withdraw it. 3447 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Mr. Deputy Speaker, I draw your attention to the fact that the honorable member for Gippsland has stated that the appointment of certain judges was a plot. 3447 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - A caucus plot. 3447 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley - That remark is most offensive to me, and I ask that it be withdrawn. 3447 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON - If honorable members object to my use of the words "caucus plot " I am willing to withdraw them, but this was the first time in the history of the parliaments of the British Empire that the Government of the day was over-ridden in respect of the appointment of members of the judiciary by the members of its own party. I come now to Part VI. of the bill. It was with great relief that most honorable members heard, on Friday last, the announcement of the Prime Minister of the Government's acceptance of the plan unanimously adopted by the Returned Soldiers Pensions Committee. Some of the representatives on that committee will, doubtless, be subjected to criticism from some of their league members, for agreeing to a reduction of any kind, and I take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the members of that committee for the splendid public spirit that they have shown in their desire to help this country in a time of difficulty. The soldiers previously helped this country during a crisis, and now they are repeating their good work. If honorable members were, without exception, prepared to show the same courage in facing the criticism of their constituents, it would make it much easier for this Government to do the right, though unpopular, thing. I hardly thought it possible that a million pounds could be saved without affecting the soldier's own pension or that of the orphan and the widow, and I am particularly glad that that has been found to be practicable. Of course, that does not mean that the soldier pensioners, as a whole, will not. suffer some reduction, because a large percentage of them are married men, and will, therefore, suffer some sacrifice because of the reduction in the pensions of their wives and children. It has been said that the unmarried soldier will escape any sacrifice, since his individual pension is not to be reduced, but the figures show that a large proportion of the unmarried soldiers are badly incapacitated. Indeed, it is possible that their incapacity has largely prevented them from marrying. A large proportion of them are so badly incapacitated, that they are unable to undertake the responsibility of a wife and family. We owe a great deal to these men, and no one desires that their pensions should be reduced. I hope that this Soldier Pensions Committee, in its efforts to save a further £281,000, will be helped by those who are in a position to do so, by surrendering the whole, or a portion, of their pensions for the time being. If that is done the sacrifices made by those men will render unnecessary further sacrifices by those who are less able to afford them. Part VIII. of the bill relates to the reduction of bounties. In the present, circumstances of Australia, the proposed reductions are justified, but in respect of the manufacturers of sulphur and wire netting, who are protected by 'bounties in lieu of duties, I hope that the reduction of bounties will not be offset by an increase of duties. Sulphur is an essential constituent of superphosphate, and wire netting is necessary to the man on the land, and if duties are imposed on these commodities the manufacturers' share of the general sacrifice will be passed wholly on to the primary producers. Part VIII. would have been much more complete if it had provided for a general reduction of duties as well as of bounties. The Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) said on Friday last, in justification of the 50 per cent, reduction of the bounty on gold, that the exchange rate on gold to-day is £30 10s. per cent. That argument is equally applicable in favour of a reduction of duties, because the manufacturer has that protection in addition to the ordinary duties. He is getting also the benefit of lower wages, lower rates of interest on bank overdrafts, and high duties, at a time when lower duties would suffice. A few weeks ago, I brought to the notice of the Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin) the tremendous gap existing between the average prices of primary products and manufactured goods respectively. Taking the prices in 1911 as 100, the average prices of primary products in January last was 117 and of manufactures, 188. I said then that I did not believe that the rehabilitation of Australia's trade was possible until that gap had been closed to some extent. The Prime Minister asked me whether my figures included the tremendous advantage which the export industries are at present enjoying owing to the exchange. I replied that I was satisfied that they did. I have since found confirmation of that statement, because, by April, many months after the exchange had risen to its present rate, the figure for primary products had risen from 117 to 119, and for secondary products from 188 to 193. No general rehabilitation of industry and re-employment of our people can take place until something is done to bring about a greater conformity of the prices for primary and secondary products. So long as the present gap between the two remains, the depression in Australia will continue. The effect of it is that the primary n roducer, to exchange his goods for manu- factured products, has to part with 60 per cent, more than previously. Therefore he is unable to buy the same volume of the products of the secondary industries as he did formerly, and I see no hope of employment being found throughout Australia in the secondary industries until they can afford to sell at prices which those engaged in the exporting industries can afford to pay. So strongly do I feel regarding the need for lowering duties and reducing prices in conformity with the reductions in salaries and the general decrease of the purchasing power of the people, that I would propose an amendment in committee but for the limitations imposed by the title of the bill, which declares that the bill is " to make necessary provision for carrying out a plan agreed on by the Commonwealth and the States ". An amendment relating to tariff duties would not come within that title, and therefore would be ruled out as irrelevant. The only alternative open to me is to move an amendment to the motion for the second reading, but I shall not do that, because I and the members of my party have no desire to help the Lang faction in this chamber to destroy the bill. "We believe that this legislation, unpleasant though it is, must be enacted, and as a party, we are willing to accept our share of responsibility for doing something which undoubtedly is unpopular, but we believe, is right and inescapable, and something without which Australia cannot possibly be restored to prosperity. Whilst we shall support the bill, I wish to make it perfectly clear that I consider that this portion of the plan, and indeed the whole plan agreed to by the Melbourne conference, is incomplete, because it does not provide for relief in respect of the undoubtedly high cost of production, both primary and secondary. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham) referred to restrictions on industry which add tremendously to production costs. I agree entirely with what he said. We have to remove some of the shackles from both the primary and the secondary industries before industry can again become buoyant and work be found for the unemployed. The export trade should not continue to be entirely the responsibility of primary production. "We should remove the handicaps from industry to such an extent as to enable the big natural industries to play their part in the export trade, and thus help the country to meet its overseas obligations. It is too much to expect one branch of production to get Australia out of its difficulties, while another great branch, which is growing from year to year, is left to the enjoyment of a highly sheltered market without any responsibility in regard to the load of overseas obligations. We cannot, however, expect the secondary industries to take their proper part in the export trade until action is taken to remove some of those conditions which clog their wheels and make production unnecessarily expensive. The members of the Country party regret the omission from the bill of what we regard as a vital part of any plan of rehabilitation, and hope at a suitable opportunity to get from the House an expression, of opinion in regard to the reduction of tariff duties. An amendment to the motion for the second reading might only help those whom I believe to be the enemies of Australia to defeat the bill. Therefore, we shall support the measure, although we regard it as an incomplete plan for the economic rehabilitation of Australia. Debate (on motion by Mr. Parker Moloney) adjourned. 3449 bill Bill brought up by Mr. Parker Moloney, and read a first time. 3449 bill 3449 Debate resumed. 3449 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY .- I listened attentively to the remarks of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham), and like the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) came to the conclusion that his speech was designed merely to make a show of real opposition to the Government, and thereby placate the supporters of his party outside this chamber. The alleged Leader of the United party (Mr. Lyons) is absent, and perhaps there is a feeling amongst supporters of the Nationalist party that enough ginger has not Been put into the debates in this chamber since the change of leadership. The absence of the honorable member for Wilmot presented an opportunity to his deputy to make a show of hostility to the Government in order to be able to claim that the Nationalists are the parliamentary Opposition. It is obvious, however that he is engaged in a sham fight, for the purpose of creating the impression that the Opposition parties are resisting the Government in some directions, when actually they are very pleased with the policy if has proposed. One may reasonably predict that the Opposition, having forced a so-called Labour government to adopt measures which, after all, are of Nationalist origin, will not show much consideration to its catspaws, should a later opportunity present itself to remove the Ministry from power, because the plums of office will be just as tempting to them as they are to those now enjoying them. 3449 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - The honorable member held on to office for a long time. 3449 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - That may be so in the honorable member's opinion; I am just as good a judge of political tactics as is the honorable member, and I knew which was the proper and fitting time to act, particularly when the demand for my resignation was being made by the avowed enemies of Labour. I can claim, however, that I rely on my own judgment in such matters, and I hope that I shall never have to take any advice from the Opposition or accept their policy while I am associated with the Labour movement. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred to the policy of the Bruce Page Government, of which he was a member, and emphasized the need for scrapping all our industrial legislation. He put up the case that was advanced at the last general elections. He claimed that while the plan might effect a certain redress of the position, it was not sufficient; that, sooner or later, Parliament would have to accept entirely the proposals which his party had put before the people at the last general election. One must be quite honest, and admit that there has been a definite measure of consistency in the attitude of the honorable gentleman. He and his party went to the poll with a certain programme. ' The Bruce-Page Government urged that u certain course should be taken. It argued that what it termed the restrictions and hampering alleged to be caused by industrial awards should be abolished. The members of the Labour party, who then formed the Opposition, contended that such a course would throw the workers into the open economic ring, where they would be exploited in all directions. Consequently, the proposals of honorable members opposite were strenuously resisted by the Labour party. 3450 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Sir Maxwell - The Bruce-Page Government desired the abolition of the Federal Arbitration Court, leaving arbitration to the State tribunals. 3450 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - That was the Nationalist policy, but we had had at the time an experience of what would happen under such an arrangement. The Nationalist Government in New South Wales had already brought about the abolition of rural awards, and various Nationalist organizations in other States were endeavouring to achieve similar reactionary objectives, so that it was obvious that their intention was to scrap all industrial tribunals, Federal and State. I point out - and this cannot be denied by any supporter of the Nationalist party - that when a policy is formulated at the Nationalist conventions that are held . annually, no line of demarcation is drawn between Commonwealth and State as regards the operation of the Nationalist policy, and it is the bounden duty of the party's representatives in Parliament, whether in the Federal or State arena, to endeavour to apply the policy in their own sphere where it is practicable. If that is not so, why are annual conferences held to formulate the general policy of the party? Just before the last general election took place, the Nationalist party was endeavouring to apply to the federal arena a policy that it had already applied in the State of New South Wales. [Quorum formed.] The utterances of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham) this afternoon are in line with the objectives of the Nationalist party. I am not complaining that honorable members opposite hold certain opinions; I am contrast ing their attitude with the attitude of the gentlemen who at present occupy the treasury bench. Members of this Parliament went to the polls at the last general election on a definite issue, the retention of the principle of arbitration. I. might very appositely read a passage taken from the Prime Minister's speech, when he appealed to the supporters of Labour in his then role of Leader of the Opposition. He stated - The proposal you are being ashed to vote for by the present reactionary Government is nothing less than the abolition in one fell swoop of our federal arbitration system, the system which has grown out of the misery and oppression of the workers; the system which our fathers won for us, and the humanitarian statesmen have given us, building it up, act upon act. That conclusively proves that the main issue on which the elections were fought was the retention or abolition of the principle of arbitration. The result of the general election is well known. Labour was returned with an overwhelming' majority. Naturally, it was expected by those who supported the Labour party that the new Government would be the staunch custodian of arbitration in all its aspects, and would not depart from the principles enunciated by the present Prime Minister when he made his appeal to. the workers for their support. Yet, after eighteen months of office, the Government has definitely departed from its pledge, and betrayed the trust reposed in them by the workers. The provisions of the 'bill that is now before the House cut right across the principle of arbitration, in a ruthless fashion, and will do what Labour has always bitterly opposed, by giving to a Minister the right to determine what wages and conditions shall prevail in industry. The Leader of the Opposition is certainly in what must be to him a most agreeable position. A so-called Labour party has destroyed the very thing which it was elected to defend, and which he has always endeavoured to destroy. When next there is an appeal to the country, the honorable gentleman will be able to hold up against the present supporters of this Government decisions of which they have approved which are entirely contrary to the pledges upon which Labour was returned to office eighteen mon ti is ago. The Opposition is now in a very favorable position, and if the Deputy Leader gave free expression to his feelings he would declare himself much ' pleased at the turn which events have taken. This so-called Labour Government has disregarded its promise to the electors that the salaries of public servants and others under semi-government control now covered by Federal or State awards should be determined by arbitration. It has arbitrarily cut back the basic wage, and departed from- the policy previously adopted in arriving at that wage. The late Mr. Justice Higgins, in the Harvester judgment, laid down a formula for the determination of the basic wage. How jealously that principle has been safeguarded by Labour. Tear after year, Labour organizations have endeavoured to improve that formula by bringing it up to modern standards. Even during my short term as a member of the Government, representations were frequently made by the trade unions to the effect that the basic wage should not be determined solely on the statistics made available to the Government. Many unions expressed the view that the scope of the Statistician's inquiries was much too circumscribed; that the data on which he worked did not allow justice to be done to the workers. At that time the Government was anxious to investigate the subject exhaustively, in order that the interests of the workers should be safeguarded; but now it has changed its views entirely, and jettisoned the formula altogether. I suppose that the services of Professor Giblin will not be needed any longer when this measure has gone through, as no statistical inquiry of any kind will be required to determine the index figures for the basic wage of the salaries of public servants. The Government has decided to take off the £34 cost of living allowance, and then superimpose other reductions. We hear a good deal about constitutional practice in these matters. I am given to understand that, while, according to regulations, it is not proper to grant cost of living allowances retrospectively, a reduction of that allowance is to be given retrospective application. Time after time the unions have asked that their claims should have retrospective applica tion, but have been ruled out of court on the grounds that the Constitution did not permit of it. Now, when it suits this Labour Government to apply a reduction retrospectively, the Constitution is thrown aside. Perhaps this is being done because it is thought that the trade unions have not sufficient money to fight an action against the Government through the courts. Not only is the Government going to interfere arbitrarily with wages in a general sense; it proposes also to save £1,000,000 from what is termed " miscellaneous expenditure ". I hope that when the bill reaches the committee stage details will be given as tq, what " miscellaneous expenditure " really comprises. Embodied in it, no doubt are many concessions that have been won by the Public Service, merely because they have been able, by using their numerical and financial strength, to see that justice was done to them. It is remarkable that a Labour government, which owes its existence to the strength of trade unionism, should now be the destroying agent in this matter. Obviously, the Government has accepted entirely the policy of the Nationalist party. That is why the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham) concluded his remarks this afternoon by saying that he would support all the proposals embodied in this plan. His conscience enables him to do so, as they are Nationalist proposals. 3451 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Has not the plan been approved -by the Labour Governments of Victoria and South Australia? 3451 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - Those are not Labour governments. 3451 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Then what are they? 3451 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Time alone will determine whether those are or are not Labour governments. It will be a ease of history repeating itself. Whenever Labour faces a crisis, and the real test of adherence to Labour principals is being applied, we find the same things happening as in the case of the States referred to - a complete surrender to the desires of the people. Eventually it will be possible to determine who really are the true supporters of Labour. I have no doubt as to what will happen to the so-called Labour Governments of Victoria and. South Australia. The opinions of those who do not prize office and emoluments, the rank and file, will eventually prevail, Hud the proper treatment will he meted out to those who have abandoned their pledges. The Deputy Leader of the Country party (Mr. Paterson) went to great pains to justify the reduction of wages proposed by this measure; there seemed to be nothing else in his mind. But he uttered not a word as to the possibility of workers living on ?2 or ?8 a week. AH that mattered to him was that the great bulk of public servants in receipt of but moderate incomes should have their wages cut. He did *not consider whether it would be possible for those people to exist on the wages they would then receive, or whether they could keep up their superannuation and unemployment tux payments. All he thought of was "Let us get at them so that we can cut their wages ". The honorable gentleman, however, went to some lengths to plead for the " unfortunate " bondholders. That seems to be an obsession with him, for on each occasion that he has spoken to measures of this description during the past two weeks, he has referred to these " unfortunate " bondholders. It is interesting to see who some of those people are. The Premier of New South Wales made known the names of a few of these unfortunate bondholders, and I think we ought to have them recorded in the Commonwealth Hansard, so that those who follow events may know them. Speaking of these unfortunate, bondholders, when the proposal for dealing with tax-free securities was under discussion, he said - "We have Sir Alexander MacCormick with his ?17(5,500," said Mr. Lang, "Is he a poor person whom we should help? Then there is Thomas Buckland with ?141,000, and Sir Norman Kater with ?42,000. These are the people to whom it is proposed to give concessions. Then there are the Cohens and the Levys with their ?42,000; Ormond Charles Smith with his ?109.000; Jessie Love with ?17,000; Bennett with ?07,000. There are the Mails and the Halls with their ?1S0.000; Ralph Lester Smith with ?129.000; F. C. Futter with ?52,000; W. S. Futter with ?45,000; David Edward Lewis with ?198,000; 6. B. Vicary with ?169,000; Amy Vickery with ?53,000; Austin Howard Smith with ?20,000. " So I could go on through the list. There are the McIlwraiths with ?58,000; Sir J. Bonython with ?332,285; the Hayes family with ?115,000, and Conniber with ?64,900: Fairbanks with ?2S,900; and the Frasers and Stephens and Knoxs with ?340,631 - all poor people in New South Wales. Further on in the list there is Rebecca Smith Hill, who has ?39,000. There is also Laura Marie Hill, who is fairly poor, having ?43,326. There is Saunders, with ?100,000; McPhillamy with ?50,000. "Dryhurst and Darker have ?55,000. We also have a nice young man named Watt, who had only ?91,991; M. Brown has ?03,000, Falkiners ?60,000, Rymill ?54,000, T. H. Payne ?48,000, and another Payne ?50,000. These are the people it is proposed to let go free." 3452 KVS 0 0 THEODORE, Edward Mr Theodore - Are all those tax free investments ? Mr. Lang: Yes. Those are the unfortunate bondholders for whom the Deputy Leader of the Country party (Mr. Paterson) is so much concerned. 3452 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Nonsense; I referred to the bondholders who drew less than ?100 a year as income from their investments. 3452 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Right throughout this discussion piteous pleas have been made by honorable members opposite on behalf of the bondholders, while not one word has been said in defence of those whom I, and those who support me, represent. 3452 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - That is absolute misrepresentation. 3452 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - The honorable member says we are misguided. Well, I do not desire ever to be guided by him, or by those belonging to the party he represents. If he cares or dares to challenge our interest in Australia and our regard for its welfare, let me tell him that my people were in this country, building it up, long before he ever thought of coming here. 1 will not subscribe to his proposals for bringing about in Australia the conditions which existed in Scotland or elsewhere, and I do not propose meekly to accept his declaration that those of us in this corner have no regard for Australia. We have more regard for it, probably, than he has. The honorable member questions our motives when we seek to defend the interests of the people, but our motives are purer and nobler than his own. Long before anything was ever done for old-age pensioners and invalids by the interests represented by honorable members opposite, the Labour party had been endeavouring to mould public opinion, and to rectify the wrongs from which these people suffered. The Labour party succeeded in its endeavours, and it was the weight of public opinion, as developed inside and outside Parliament, that forced the governments of the day to recognize the claims of those now in receipt of pensions. In the older countries, and no doubt in that from which the honorable member for Gippsland comes, those claims have not yet been recognized, and the needy aged must perforce seek shelter in the poor houses. Even in this country, many who are unable to obtain relief have to resort to a similar course. Yet, when we try to defend the interests of those who have obtained some small measure of justice after so long a fight, honorable members opposite with the concurrence of the Government cry stinking fish. When the opportunity presents itself, as it does now, to force conditions down again to the old level by economic pressure,, honorable members opposite, and the interests they represent, are only too glad to avail themselves of it. I can assure them, however, that we will continue to fight for the old and the infirm who have no other protectors, and we want no guidance from those who have been politically opposed to us ever since political parties took form in Australia. I trust that I shall never accept direction or advice on these matters from honorable members opposite. Before discussing the contents of this bill, I feel that it is necessary to make some reference to the change in policy of the Government. We need only go back two or three months to the time when the Government formulated its monetary policy, and declared its intention to stand by it. After the New South Wales elections, when the people endorsed the Lang proposals, the Treasurer of the Commonwealth (Mr. Theodore) was forced to announce .a definite policy, one which is well known to honorable members on both sides of the House. Many honorable members on this side honestly and. sincerely believed that when the Treasurer advanced those proposals for monetary reform a few months ago, he intended to carry them out faithfully. He has not done so, however, and he has left his New South Wales supporters high and dry. The Government announced its intention to stand or fall by those proposals. It said that it would pass the proposals through this House, and send them forward to another place. If they were rejected there, it would take steps to test the feeling of the people on the issue. It believed, it said, that the time had arrived when the people should be given an opportunity of declaring whether the elected representatives were to control the Government, or whether it was to be controlled by private banking institutions and the Commonwealth Bank Board. The Government professed to believe that the psychological moment had arrived to test this issue at a general election. What has become known as the Gibbons plan was before the Labour party, and the Government formulated its policy largely upon that plan. Although the plan bears the name of the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Gibbons), the Treasurer was, largely responsible for its creation. The Gibbons proposals are as follows: - (1.) That the Commonwealth Bank be required to create sufficient credit as and when required for the following purposes: - (a) Finance the requirements of the Commonwealth Government in connexion with all services covered by parliamentary appropriations; (h) meet that portion of the internal loans maturing during the financial year which has not been otherwise provided for; (c) provide for financing State and Commonwealth loan works programme up to a limit of £20,000,000; (d) provide financial accommodation through the Commonwealth Bank, trading banks, State financial institutions, and, if necessary, through insurance companies, to be used for productive purposes in primary and secondary industries. The ultimate amount of credit to be issued under this head to be determined by the effect upon the commodity price levels. (2.) The credit under the various heads to be made available at an interest rate not exceeding 5 per cent, per annum (3.) An effective exchange pool be continued to provide Australian Governments with first claim on Australian funds in London. The external exchange rates to be fixed at such rates as will give primary producers the full benefit of the exchange premium on their exports to compensate for the diminished market prices. The Government's proposals, based on the Gibbous plan, were submitted to the Commonwealth Bank Board in February of this year, while the Premiers' Conference was sitting in Canberra, and the board rejected them. The board carried a resolution stating that, subject to the Government making adequate cuts in social services, salaries and pensions, it would continue to provide financial support. The Government, in a bulletin issued about this time, commented upon the resolution of the Commonwealth Bank Board as follows : - The Gibbons proposals submitted to the Commonwealth Bank Board were rejected. The Government was not prepared to accept onerous conditions imposed by the Bank Board, namely, drastic reductions in war, old-age and invalid pensions, public service salaries, and social services. That was only four months ago. All honorable members on this side of the House expected that the Government intended to proceed with its policy, that there would be no cutting of pensions and wages, and that if it failed, the people would be asked to declare who was to govern the country - their elected representatives, or the financial institutions. The Government in a further bulletin attacked the Labour movement in New South Wales in these words - Thi- whole edifice of Labour ha,3 been imperilled by the journalistic mouthpiece of the renegades of the Labour movement in New South Wales. Despite these attacks, the Federal Labour party will triumph to give effect to its policy. That is to say, in spite of the so-called renegades, the Government would triumph, and carry out its policy, and its policy, as I have pointed out, was substantially the Gibbons plan, which provided for the amendment to the Commonwealth Bank Act, the issue of a fiduciary currency, and the taxation of interest. The same statement published in the Government bulletin then went on to attack the Lyons programme, which it described as a "vicious circle," saying that it was foolish to talk about restoring confidence and balancing the budget by a process which would create more unemployment, and more stagnation in industry. This is what the Government said - Once the people hear the whole of the truth, they will see how vital it is to retain the Federal Government in power, to prevent the destruction of the system of arbitration, reduction in wages and pensions, and a restriction in purchasing power which must prove disastrous to business and our manufacturing interests. Again the Government declared that it could never agree to the Lyons policy, which would reduce the purchasing power of the people by attacking what had been regarded up to then as vital Labour principles. The bulletin continued - The Federal Government's monetary policy for the rehabilitation of Australian finances is daily gaining ground and support for it has been received from world-wide economists, such as Professor Custav Cassell, of Stockholm University, an authority on exchange and international movements of capital. That was the Government's policy, which it apparently regarded, almost right up to the present, as sound and proper. Why, then, has it now surrendered? Why has it agreed to accept a policy which only four months ago it violently denounced, a policy which the Leader of the Government informed the Labour party they would never accept? They said that they would go to any lengths to prevent the policy of the Opposition from being given effect. We have had plenty of evidence, even within the last few weeks, that the policy which the Government formerly espoused, and has now rejected, was the proper one, and that it should have been carried out. In the Melbourne Age of the 1st July there is published the following cable: - The Bank of England, the Daily Herald states, is about to change its financial policy, abandoning deflation in favour of slight inflation.. The Daily Herald states that this is the best news from Threadneedle-street for a long time. Deflation inevitably caused bad trade, unemployment, and a wage cut. " lt may be hoped, " it adds, " that the joint stock banks will follow the lead of the Bank of England, and will follow this new line of courage as well as caution ". 3454 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - That has been denied since. 3454 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I have not seen any denial. I hope that within the next few weeks we shall have the document before us. The McMillan Committee on finance and commerce, which was appointed in England in November, 1929, presented its report about two weeks ago. In the course of its references to the trade depression, the committee attacked the policy of the Bank of England. Extracts from that report which have been published in Australia show that the committee did not advocate wage or salary reductions as a remedy for the present trade crisis, and that a majority of the committee was opposed to the policy of the Bank of England. I emphasize that the committee comprised the greatest financial experts in Britain - men not associated with the Labour party. The following extract from remarks made by Lord D'Abernon was also published recently : - The Central Banks have so far failed in what should be their main, objective - the maintenance of price stability and restoration of prices approximately to the 1928-29 level as the only practical means of avoiding a very grave political and social danger. Wo must discard the mugwump notion that deflation is respectable and virtuous while anything that can be termed inflation however unjustly is immoral and disreputable. The report goes on to show that the trend of events has been against the policy originated by the Bank of England. When, a few weeks ago, I mentioned in this House the association of Sir Robert Gibson with the policy of the Bank of England, I was referring to what Sir Robert Gibson himself had said in my presence when I was a member of the Government. Sir Robert Gibson has endeavoured, through the agency of the Commonwealth Bank, to give effect to the policy of the Bank of England. Although that was denied by the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. Crouch), the honorable member for Kennedy (Mr. Riordan), when speaking of banks in Western Australia, made it clear that their policy had been dictated by the Bank of England. Why has the Government surrendered the policy which it once believed to be necessary for the rehabilitation of the finances of the country? The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Latham) smiles when he reflects on the Government's change of front, and its acceptance of the policy he has advocated. Indeed, the Government has gone further than the honorable gentleman proposed to go in October last. The present so-called Labour Government presents a sorry spectacle to the country." During the course of a speech made by the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore), I asked whether the proposed salary reductions would apply_to the judiciary. According to the unrevised proof of the honorable gentleman's speech, he answered that the judiciary would share in the cut that was to be made. The Treasurer has no right to attempt to mislead the House. If, as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition states, the salaries of the members of the judiciary are protected by the Constitution, and those gentlemen are to suffer no reduction in their emoluments, it is well that those who will be called upon to make sacrifices should know it. It may be that the members of the judiciary, like the judges of Victoria, will make a voluntary sacrifice only after considerable pressure is brought to bear upon them. Only at the. last moment did the Victorian judges agree to any reduction of their salary. Another departure from Labour principles is contemplated by the Government. It proposes to vest in a Minister of the Crown the right to determine the rates of pay and conditions of employment which shall prevail in any industry not specifically controlled by the Public Service Arbitrator. The new proposals will apply to the employees of the Cockatoo Island dockyard who are now working under both Federal and State awards. The bill provides that the Minister may so interfere with the awards under which they are working that the employees of the dockyard may be placed at a decided disadvantage as compared with workers, say, at Mort's Dock. A Labour Minister is to be given the powers of an Arbitration Court judge; he will be able to sei aside or to regulate even State awards to the detriment of those now working under them! 3455 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - Heaven forbid! 3455 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I do not know in what Minister these powers will be vested; it will probably be the Minister for Defence. The Government will use his knowledge, and his training in the Arbitration Court, to destroy many things which he at one time assisted to build up. Time will determine which Minister will be given these powers, i It will then be for us to let his constituents know his attitude in regard to these matters. Reference has been made to the taxation of federal public servants by the States. I am not complaining about that; but it would appear that these proposals will mean that public servants will be called upon to bear more than their fair share of the sacrifice. It would be interesting to see what would happen should the Constitution permit the States to pass legislation to exempt State public servants from Commonwealth taxation. I leave it to constitutional authorities to say whether that power exists. It would be interesting if New South Wales passed legislation to exempt State public servants from Commonwealth taxation. 3456 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - The States cannot do that. 3456 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - It might be worth while for them to try. If those who would suffer have not the means at their disposal to employ legal talent to argue their case, they will be forced to bear an undue share of the burden. Very little was said by the Treasurer about the proposed reductions of pensions. lt is now proposed that old-age and war pensions shall be treated as income. That proposal establishes it beyond doubt that there is no sentiment attached to war pensions; that they have been considered only from the point of view of pounds, shillings and pence. As I pointed out when speaking to the Debt Conversion Agreement Bill, the full effect of this legislation on pensioners will' not be realized until it has actually been put into operation. On the face of it, the proposal is merely to reduce pensions of 20s. a week to 17s. 6d. a week, and pensions of 5s. a week to 2s. 6d. a week; but it will go further, for many who are now receiving pensions will, under the new scheme, receive no pension at all. The honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) pointed out that, by taking into consideration the value of the homes of pensioners, the Government will take pensions from many persons now receiving them. When the bill reaches the committee stage the group to which I belong will endeavour to secure further information, not in the hope of defeating the measure, but with a view to directing the attention of those who will suffer injustices under it to what the Government intends, and also to give us an opportunity to rally invalid, old-age and soldier pensioners and their friends in opposition to such proposals. The result of the appointment of a committee to deal with soldiers' pensions will be that the soldiers will be sold. I remind the Government that those persons in the community who, under the proposals contained in this hill, are to receive reduced pensions, are a force to be reckoned with. That force will be rallied, and I hope that it will speak with no uncertain voice when given the opportunity to do so through the medium of the ballot-box. 3456 K0A Angas 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB .- The measure which we have before us is a tragic one; the more I reflect upon it the more I dislike it. Nevertheless, I can see no other way out of our difficulties than that contained in what is generally called " the plan ". In the past forms of inflation have been advocated as a means of meeting the difficult situation in which Australia is placed; but I have never agreed with the views of those who. advocated them. In my opinion, the plan placed before us offers the only hope of our financial salvation. That being the case, I support the bill. While it is regrettable that old-age pensions should be reduced from £1 to 17s. 6d. a week, it is better that that reduction should take place than that pensioners should be forced to accept 12s. a week or, perhaps, receive no pension at all. The same remark applies to the pensions of soldiers and invalids. I can understand the attitude of honorable members in the ministerial corner when they see a Labour government apparently destroying things which they have helped to build up in the past. We have sown the wind and now we are reaping the whirlwind. Scripture truly says, " As a man sows so shall he reap ". As a people, we have been extravagant; and, as a consequence, we are now forced to make sacrifices. 3456 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - Cheer up ! 3456 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - It is easy for honorable members who, even under these proposals, will still have £800 a year, to cheer up; but there will be many outside Parliament who will find it difficult to be cheerful in the circumstances that will confront them. It is useless to whistle to keep up our courage. As I have said, this is a tragic measure, and I regret that circumstances compel me to support it. My objection to it is not that it means a reduction of my salary; I am thinking of those who will be less able than I to bear the burden that they will be calledupon to bear. The proposals before us include a reduction of the wine bounty. I warn the Government of the danger of undoing all the good that it did when it increased the bounty. [Quorum, formed.'] To provide for the wine bounty there is levied on the industry a special tax in the form of an increase in the excise duty. This 'proposal to interfere with that arrangement is further evidence of the intention of this Government to break faith with the people. South Australia derives no benefit from the high tariff, with the exception of the wine bounty and the grant made by the Commonwealth as compensation for the disabilities suffered by that State under federation. The withdrawal of the bounty of 4 l/5d. per gallon will make more precarious an industry which for some years has been facing a very serious position indeed. 3457 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - It is all part of the plan. 3457 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - I know it is. But if I am not prepared to vote against the bill because of its provisions with regard to a reduction of old-age, invalid and war pensions, I cannot oppose it on the ground solely that it. will make more difficult the position of those engaged in the wine industry. I do not altogether approve of the window-dressing title of the bill. It is evidence of the handiwork of the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore)-. The measure, we are informed, is designed " to make necessary provision for carrying out a plan agreed on by the Commonwealth and the States for meeting the grave _ emergency existing in Australia, re-establishing financial stability, and restoring industrial and general prosperity." I cannot see bow it will restore prosperity unless it is anticipated that substantial indirect benefits will be enjoyed by the people generally following the adjustment of the financial position. But I cannot believe that we shall reach the millennium so quickly. I am afraid that we shall have to travel for a long time along a dreary road, beset with many hardships, before we overcome the difficulties that confront us. I very much regret that the measure contains provisions to reduce payments to old-age pensioners living in their own homes. It stipulates that for every £10 by which the home of a pensioner exceeds the value of £500, there shall be a deduction of his pension by £1 per year. This will be a very troublesome and vexatious provision to operate, and I am afraid that honorable members will be much worried by representations from these aged and deserving citizens protests ing against the reduction. It will definitely discourage thrift. Those to suffer most will be the owners of small farm properties. In all but a few cases the land and home would be worth over £500, but if this new provision is applied to them, many will be in a serious position. I come now to another matter upon which I intend to speak at some length, namely, the travelling allowances drawn by members of the Ministry. Recently, feeling that the time had come when all sections of the community should be compelled to observe the strictest economy, and in view of the fact that the Government had announced its intention to reduce old-age, invalid and war pensions, I decided to inquire what economies might be possible in the allowances paid to Ministers and others. I was amazed at the return furnished a week or two ago in reply to questions asked by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) with reference to this matter. I also asked a question, and last week spoke on this subject on the motion for the adjournment of the House. ^ The right honorable the Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin) has stated that in many instances Ministers have not drawn one-third of the amount which they might properly have charged against the Commonwealth. I challenge that statement. It is not in accordance with the facts. If parliamentary procedure permitted, I should apply to it a much stronger term. I have gone to a good deal of trouble to ascertain the exact position. Ministers, we are informed, now charge £1 10s. per day instead of £2 2s., and the Prime Minister £2 per day instead of £3 3s. It is about time that the whole of these allowances were discontinued.' I also challenge the statement of the Prime Minister that Ministers have only drawn one-third of the amount which they were entitled to charge. After a careful examination of the figures, I submit that, except in the case of a few Ministers, it would be impossible to prove that they have drawn less than one-third, or one-fifth, of the amount which they could have drawn, even if they had been absent from Canberra on official business for every day except Sundays and the days when the House was sitting. I invite attention in the first place, to the allowances drawn by the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Forde) The return furnished by the Prime Minister shows that this Minister, up to the 24th June. drew in travelling allowances £525 16s. He was sworn in as a Minister on the 23rd October, 1929. Prom that date until the 24th June, he had been a Minister for 609 days. If we subtract Sundays, 87 ; the days when the House was in session, 161; and days for which travelling allowance was drawn at £2 2s. per day, 250, we get a total of 498 days. From this we find that he drew the allowance for 250 days out of a possible 361 days. That certainly was not a case of only charging one-third of the amount properly chargeable. I suggest that the Minister did very well indeed out of his allowances. 3458 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - Why should not the Minister charge travelling allowance? 3458 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - I take the view that if, because of our difficult financial position, we are obliged to cut old-age pensions by 2s. 6d. a week, Ministers receiving from £5 to £6 per day, including Sundays, are not justified in drawing an additional £2 2s. per day when travelling. I go further and say that in these times the heads of departments and, in fact, all public servants in receipt of salaries over £750 a year, should not charge travelling allowances when travelling in connexion with their work. I come now to Senator Daly, who has drawn £382 4s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and lost his position in the Ministry on the 3rd March, 1931, so that he was a Minister for 497 days. If we subtract Sundays, 71; the days when the Senate was in session, 78; and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 182, we get a total of 331, and find that he drew travelling allowance for 182 days out of a possible 348 days. It should be noted, also, that he was ill for some time, and was in hospital for several weeks. Moreover, the period included two Christmas vacations, when he would be at his home. I turn now to the amount drawn by the former' Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Anstey). His account against the Commonwealth was £369 12s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and lost his position in the Government on the 3rd March, 1931, so that he was a member of the Ministry for 497 days. Subtracting Sundays, 71; days when the House was in session, 112; and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 176, we get a total of 359. This shows that he drew the allowance for 176 days out of a possible 314 days. That certainly was more' than one-third of the allowance properly chargeable against the Commonwealth. 3458 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - Has the honorable member been up all night getting this information ? 3458 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - No; but if I found it necessary I should not hesitate to do even that to prevent the Prime Minister or any one else "putting it over me." My main purpose is to point to possible economies with a view to lifting some of the burden which rests upon our taxpayers, and in doing this I am entitled to direct criticism against the action of certain Ministers who seem to be making a good thing out of travelling allowances. I turn now to the present Postmaster-General (Mr. A. Green). He has drawn in travelling allowances £359 18s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and, therefore, was in the Ministry for 609 days up to the 24'th June, the date of the return. If we subtract Sundays, 87 ; the days when the House was in session, 161; and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 171, we have a total of 419, and find that he drew the allowance for 171 days out of a possible 361 - a little more than one-half. Another substantial account was that charged by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley), who for some time was Assistant Minister, and drew in travelling allowance £320 4s. 3459 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - Surely he would not do that? 3459 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - The honorable member for West Sydney was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and lost his position in the Ministry on the 3rd March, 1931, so that he was in the Ministry for 497 days. If we subtract Sundays, 71; the days when the House was in session, 112 ; and the days for which the travelling allowance was drawn, 152, we have a total of 335, and find that he drew the allowance for 152 days out of a possible 314. This, too, despite the fact that for a considerable portion of that time he was engaged in the Parkes and East Sydney by-elections. 3459 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - Did the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) draw more than 17s. 6d. per week? 3459 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Oh yes, much more. The next case I shall deal with is that of the Honorable J. A. Lyons, formerly Postmaster-General. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and resigned on the 30th January, 1931. He was thus 465 days in the Ministry. Subtracting from this total the Sundays, 66, the days the House was in session, 112, and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 141, we get a total of 319. The honorable gentleman thus drew allowance for 141 days out of a possible 287, winch was more than the percentage mentioned by the Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin), even assuming that a claim could be made for every day, excepting the days I have excluded. I shall deal next with the Minister for Home Affairs (Mr. Blakeley). This honorable gentleman drew £275 2s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and up to the 24th June, 1931, the date of the return, he had been in the Ministry 609 days. Subtracting from this total the Sundays, 87, the days the House was in- session, 161, and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 131, we get a total of 379. The honorable gentle man thus drew for 131 days out of a possible 361. [Quorum formed.] Here is the first evidence of any approach to the one-third to which the Prime Minister referred. The 131 days is near enough to one-third, if the Minister had been travelling and had drawn for every possible day; but the Minister had not travelled every day. This Minister has his home at Canberra, where he and his family live. Nevertheless, I am glad that he has not "grabbed" as much as some of the other Ministers. His figures in this respect are better than those of the Ministers who live in Melbourne. The inference I draw from that is that the Ministers who live away from Canberra do draw travelling allowances when going to and coming from their home3, although the Prime Minister has denied that this is so. In the light of the figures which I have quoted, I challenge the right honorable gentleman to substantiate his statement in this respect. I am satisfied, from my examination of the figures, that expenses equivalent to at least one day have been claimed for the journey to and from Melbourne, although the Prime Minister has said that nothing is paid from 4 p.m. until after midnight, on the day the journey is commenced. The next case is that of the Minister for Markets Mr. Parker Moloney). This honorable gentleman drew £247 16s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and up to the 24th June, 1931, the date of the return, he had been in the Ministry 609 days. He was absent from Australia from the 25th August, 1930, until the 30th January, 1931, a total of 157 days. Subtracting from the total of 609 days the Sundays, 64, the days abroad, 157, the days the House was in session while he was in Australia, 137, and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 118, we get a total of 47 6 days. The honorable gentleman thus drew travelling allowance for 118 days out of a possible 251 days, which is a little better than half. But even if he were absent on official business for every one of the 251 days, and- did not draw for the other 133 days, he would still not be in the one-third, let alone the one-fifth, sacrificial class mentioned by the Prime Minister. I have not taken into account any travelling allowance in the case of this Minister for the five months he was absent from Australia. I do not know what allowance he drew during that time. I come now to the case of Senator Barnes, who drew £241 10s. This honorable gentleman was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and up to the 24th June, 1931, the date of the return, he had been 609 days in the Ministry. Sub.tracting from that total the Sundays, 87, the days the Senate was in session, IOC, and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn, 115, we "et a total of 30S. The honorable senator thus drew allowance for 115 days out of the Possible 416. This is near enough to one-third of the possible total if the honorable gentleman had been travelling on official business on every day except those for which I have accounted. I do not think that any one would, for a minute, regard that as a possibility. However, 1 am glad that Senator Barnes has not been as hungry as some of his colleagues. The next case is that of the Attorney-General (Mr. Brennan), who drew £241 10s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and up to the 24th June, 1931, the date of the return, he had been 609 days in the Ministry. He was absent from Australia from the 17th July, 1930, until the 6th January, 1931, a total of 174 days. Subtracting from the total of 609 days, the Sundays, 62, the days abroad, 174, the days the House was in session, 119, and the days for which travelling allowance was drawn while he was in Australia, 315, we get a total of 470. This honorable gentleman thus drew travelling allowance for 115 days out of a possible 254. That is a little better than one-half of the possible, but a long way short of the one-third or the one-fifth mentioned by the Prime Minister. Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 8 p.m. {'Quorum formed.'} 3460 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - I have emphasized that, in my view, no Commonwealth employee or -parliamentarian in receipt of £750 or more per annum should draw travelling allowances. In the figures supplied to me relating to the travelling allowances of the Attorney-General (Mr. Brennan), the amount paid in connexion with his recent six months' trip abroad was not given. I now propose to refer to the allowances drawn by the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton), when he was a member of the Government. These amounted to £184 16s. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and he resigned on the 30th January, 1931, having been in the Ministry 455 days. He was absent abroad from the 6th December, 1929, until the 2nd July, 1930 ; a matter of 207 days. There were 35 Sundays, 207 days when the honorable member was abroad, and 60 days when the House was in session. One finds, therefore, that the honorable member drew the allowance at £2 2s. a day for 88 days out of a possible 153 days, which is a little more than half. In this instance, also, the allowance was not drawn on only one-third or one-fifth of the number of days when it might have been taken, as was suggested by the Prime Minister. I now examine the allowances paid to the Prime Minister himself. He drew £179 Ils. He was sworn in on the 23rd October, 1929, and up to the 24th June, last, he had been a Minister for 609 days. He was absent abroad from the 25th August, 1930, to the 6th January, 1931, or 157 days. In the period of 609 days there was 64 Sundays, 157 days when the Prime Minister was absent abroad, and 137 days when the House was in session, and the Prime Minister was in Australia. Thus the Prime Minister drew the allowance of £3 3s. for 57 days out of a possible 251 days. His is the only case except one in which a Minister drew only one-fifth of the total possible sum, and for that I' think that he is to be highly commended; but no one will claim that the Prime Minister was absent from Canberra on every possible day. The right honorable gentleman stated in the House the other day that the £3 3s. a day to which he was entitled by way of travelling allowances while attending the conferences of Commonwealth and State Ministers in Melbourne would have exceeded the total allowance that he had drawn. I question that statement, but I do not intend to examine it in detail. What I wish to know is why the Prime Minister, when receiving a salary of about £7 a day, every day in the week, should be entitled to collect an additional £3 3s. a day as a travelling allowance, particularly when attending a conference in Melbourne where his home is, and where he need not incur even motor car hire, because of the convenient tram service? While I admit that the comparatively small amount drawn by the Prime Minister by way of travelling allowance is gratifying, I do not approve of the argument that he would have been justified in drawing £3 3s. a day extra, while in Melbourne, particularly at the present time when so many thousands of our citizens are reduced to the dole. 3461 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - But he did not draw the allowance then. 3461 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - I realize that he said that ; but he pointed out that if he had drawn the allowance during that period it would have exceeded the total payment made to him. While I do not mind the right honorable member drawing attention to the fact that he personally had collected only one-fifth of the allowance to which he is said to be entitled, although I question it. I object to his acting like a hen with her chickens, and sheltering his colleagues who have collected a great deal more. The Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) drew £159 2s. He was sworn in as a member of the Ministry on the 23rd October, 1929, and resigned on the 9th July, 1930. He was reinstated on the 29th January, 1931. From the 406 days spent as a member of the Ministry, I subtract 5S Sundays, 116 days when the House was in session, and 75 days for which the travelling allowance was drawn, a total of 249 days. This calculation shows that the Treasurer drew travelling allowances for 75 days out of a possible 232 days, or about one-third of the number of days for which he might have collected the allowance had he travelled on public business on every possible day. I frankly admit that I was surprised and pleased when I saw those figures. But I do not admit that the Treasurer was entitled to three times the amount paid to him. The Minister for Defence (Mr. Chifley) drew £50 8s. He was sworn in on the Srd March, 1931, and was in the Ministry for 112 days up to the 24th June, the period for which the return was prepared. Allowing for sixteen Sundays, 49 days in which the House was in session, and 24 days for which the allowance was drawn, one finds that he drew the travelling allowance far 24 days out of a possible 50. The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Holloway) drew £53 lis., the honorable member for Wannon (Mr. McNeill) £50 Ss., and Senator Dooley £58 16s. In their cases, as in that of the Minister for Defence, they drew about half the amount which they would have been permitted to draw had they been absent from Canberra on every possible day. As a general rule, it seems that Ministers collect in respect of about half the possible travellings days. The last case is that of the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Culley) j who while an Honorary Minister, drew £16 10s. He was sworn in on the 3rd March, 1931, and up to the 24th June, he was 112 days in the Ministry. Subtracting sixteen Sundays, 49 days on which the House was in session, and eight for which the allowance was drawn, we find that, out of a possible 47 days, he drew about one-sixth of the amount that he would have been permitted to collect. For that record I commend the honorable member, and, from the point of view of economy, T regret that he has left the Ministry. I wish to emphasize the point that in the period under review are two Christmas vacations. There were also days when Ministers were in Canberra, attending Cabinet and caucus meetings, and when the House was not sitting. There were also days spent by Ministers in their own electorates trying to make their seats secure. I sincerely hope that they do not charge travelling expenses on those occasions ; other honorable members are not entitled to do that. In addition, there were days, other than Sundays, which Ministers spent in their own homes. It has been stated that an examining officer investigates the conditions under which these allowances are made; but I am not prepared to accept that assurance. On one occasion an ex-Minister told me that he left Melbourne in an aeroplane one afternoon and returned to Melbourne early in the morning of the third day, and his travelling allowance was made out as £6 6s., or at the rate of £2 2s. a day for three days. If that charge was checked up by an examining officer, I arn not prepared to accept the statement that proper supervision is exercised. "When the ex-Minister, to whom I have referred, drew the department's attention to the fact that he had been given three days' travelling expenses, the officer replied, " That is the rule ". I claim that it is high time that rule was altered. Tb.e time is rotten ripe when neither public servant, nor parliamentarian receiving £15 a week, or more, should be paid these allowances. The Prime Minister said that " welter " was a racecourse term. I believe that a welter has been made of it by several members of the Government, and that they have selfishly availed themselves of the opportunity to draw this allowance. I remind the Government that " welter " has several meanings, one of which is, " To tumble about, or wallow as a hog in the mire ". Returning to the consideration of the position of the old-age pensioners under this bill, I hope that the House will not agree to the proposed reduction to £500 of the value of the home that may be held by an old-age pensioner without his being regarded as having property that affects his pension. I ask honorable members to consider this matter carefully. I am prepared to vote for the adoption of the Government's general plan of reductions; but, if I get a chance, I shall vote against this particular proposal when the bill is in committee. Let us assume that a widow owns a house valued at £700, and is now drawing a pension of £1 a week. It is proposed that for every £10, in addition to the first £50, by which the value of her house exceeds £500, her pension shall be reduced by £1 per year. In this case the extra value amounts to £150, which would cause a reduction of £15 a year, or 5s. 9d. a week, in the pension. So, instead of suffering the general reduction of 2s. 6d. a week, this widow will receive a cut of 8s. 3d. a week, reducing her pension from £1 to lis. 9d. a week. Talk about equality of sacrifice ! The proposal is grossly unjust because it means a cut of 40 per cent. A widow may own the cottage in which she lives; but she cannot eat wood, stones, and mortar. If she sold her property, she could only do so at a tremendous loss. This reduction would almost crucify some of the pensioners because of their thrift in providing a home for their old-age. 3462 KDJ Martin 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE .- With the views expressed by the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) and the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) I concur. We find ourselves in disagreement with the entire provisions of the bill before us, inasmuch as it is devoted to a reduction first, of wages and salaries; secondly, old-age, invalid and soldiers' pensions; and, thirdly, the maternity allowance. But behind these reductions there are causes of the utmost gravity, which it is necessary that we should recognize and state. First of all, the bill represents an entire acceptance on the part of the Government of bankers' demands. In the next place, there is a complete surrender to the antihuman economic system of the day to fight which the Labour movement was brought into existence. Also, there has been an abject worship of the point of view, the ethics and the psychology of forces which we consider are avowed enemies of humanity and of Labour. I refer to the unquestioned acceptance by the Government of the authority of university professors, statisticians and the like. I propose to refer briefly to each of those. In respect of the first item, we have to recognize and admit that the bill proposes what is in the nature of an . arbitrary application of wage and salary reduction; consequently it violates the entire .principle of arbitration and conciliation, which is one of the chief planks in the platform of the Labour movement. The maintenance of that principle was the only issue at the last federal elections, and the present Government was elected and pledged to protect, support and make it effective. The proposals of the Government bring into force ministerial authority over wages and salaries, in a way that we strongly oppose. I doubt if the Government has realized what a dangerous principle has been incorporated in that portion of the bill. It is possible that an antiLabour Government will be in office after the next elections. Has the Government realized what effect is going to follow from the exercise of the power which this measure seeks to place in the hands of a Minister in an anti-Labour Government, against the wage and salary-earners of this country? As an example of the extent to which the Government has' unfortunately surrendered its Labour principles, we find that, among other things, there is provision for the appointment of a committee for the deciding of certain wage cuts. These, I understand, are to cover employees who are not provided for within the functions of the Public Service Arbitrator. It seems to me that this is to be what might be termed a handpicked committee. It is curious to notice that in the composition of the committee there is no intention of having a representative of the workers, unionists or otherwise. May I remind this House of the attitude that was taken up by supporters of the Government when we debated a tariff item relating to textiles. On that occasion, it may be remembered, the group to which I have the honour to belong, opposed an increase in the tariff designed to benefit employers who at that very time were approaching the Arbitration Court for a 10 per cent. reduction in the wages of the employees in that industry. Members calling themselves Labour men, and supporters of the Government, assailed me and the members of the group to which I have the honour to belong, because, they said, it is not the function of Parliament or of Ministers to deal with the question of wages; that it is entirely a matter for the Arbitration Court. That was only a few weeks ago. I inform those honorable members that they are to-day expected to support a hill which seeks to establish the opposite principle which in its character menaces every worker throughout Australia. It is natural that we should consider the effect upon employees in the Commonwealth Public Service of the proposals relating to the reduction of wages. The views of those employees can best be ascertained by considering a statement that has been issued by the Australian Federation of Postal Unions, from a portion of which I quote the following : - Hitherto, the basic wage for the Federal Service has been adjusted on the cost of living figures for the four quarters of the year. To fix a basic wage on the figures for a single quarter as now proposed by the Government, represents a radical departure from the practice hitherto operating in the Service, and in a time of falling prices means a materialloss to the employees concerned. Had quarterly adjustments been in operation during the time when prices were climbing, Service employees would have received substantially more than they did receive. With annual adjustments during the time of rising prices and quarterly adjustments during the time of falling prices, Federal Service employees are being doubly penalized. That represents an important point of view. No one can doubt the accuracy of the statement in regard to the injustice that is being inflicted. The statement proceeds in the following terms : - The basic wage for the Service is based on the same formula as adopted by the Commonwealth Arbitration Court, but without the addition of the " Powers " 3s. Child endowment is paid for by deductions from the wages of all employees. The Government's proposals provide for the fixing of a basic wage of £182, plus child endowment, based on the cost of living figures for the quarter ended the 31st March, 1931. This represents a reduction of £34 compared with the previously existing basic wage, or a drop of £16 more than the drop that would ordinarily have taken place (under awards) on the cost of living figures for the twelve months ended the 31 st March, 1931. The Governments proposals provide for the reduction of all wages up to £250 by 18 per cent., subject to the proviso that there shall be no reduction below the new basic wage of £182;. wages from £251 to £1,000 are to be reduced by a uniform rate of 20 per cent. ; wages in excess of £1,000 are to be reduced by 22½ per cent. The severity of the Government's proposals will be seen from the following typical examples : - The basic wage is to be reduced by £34, compared with £18 under awards. A wage of £234 (£4 10s. a week) will be reduced by £42 (18 per cent.) compared with £18 under awards. A wage of £200 (£5 a week) will be reduced by £52 (20 per cent.) compared with £18 under awards, A wage of £312 (£6 a week) is to be reduced by £62 ( 20 per cent.) compared with £18 under awards. In addition to these reductions and taxes, postal employees in particular are being increasingly subjected to many pin-pricking economies in other directions. In this regard recent happenings point to the conclusion that many highly-placed officials in the Postal Department are endeavouring to justify their existence at the expense of the general body of employees who carry out the real work of the postal, telegraph, and telephone services. In respect of the reduction in pensions, the honorable members forWerriwa and "West Sydney have dealt with the principal aspects that call for our condemnation; therefore, I shall not go over the same ground where it may be avoided. But I feel justified in registering my protest against these reductions, which, besides being another specimen of the violation of the principles of the Labour movement, are in my opinion, reckless and callous in the extreme. While the Treasurer was making his second-reading speech, I inquired as to whether it was not a fact that a double cut in the pensions of the old people was proposed, in the light of the particulars that he gave of the change that was to be made in the method of establishing eligibility for a pension. I refer to that portion of the proposal before us which alters the act in respect of the property that an old-age applicant for a pension may possess. I agree with every word that the honorable member for Angas (Mr. Gabb) said on that subject, as well as with the remarks of my colleagues. To illustrate the injustice of this proposal by citing a specific example, I quote from a letter received only to-day by the honorable member for West Sydney" from a Mr. G. P. Whight of S Mincha-street, West Brunswick, Victoria. It reads - A perusal of Mr. Theodore's statement made in the House yesterday, particularly that portion which relates to old-age pensions, is my excuse for presuming to write you. I observe that in addition to reducing the maximum pension from 20s. to 17s. 6d. per week, it is proposed to treat the value of the home over £500 as property. In order to show you what the effect of this will be in many thousands of cases, I propose to cite my own case as an example. Before doing so, I wish to explain that in this State, and particularly Melbourne, property is practically unsaleable (land is assessed in this particular suburb at a higher value than it was four years ago) and generally, assessments are quite 50 per cent, above present values. I am aware, also, that the other States are in much the same position - some three and a half years ago I purchased this property for a total outlay of £800 (the amount at which it is assessed) and I have since laid out a further £25 improving it, making the total cost £825. I made the purchase to enable me to get a house to lire in at a fair rental, and paid down £200 cash, borrowing the balance (£600) from the Credit Foncier at 6 per cent. At the present moment my position in the matter is as follows: - Amount (which is now about the present value of the property) still owing Credit Foncier, £583. My income as a superannuated civil servant is £104 per annum, and my expenditure is as follows : - My position after payment of these charge* is - My wife has just been granted a pension of 12s. 6d. per week which gives us 32s. 6d. per week to live on. If this property is to be treated wholly and solely as my own (it is really the bank's ) we shall, if property is to Be treated as at present, lose about the whole of the 12s. 6d. pension granted my wife, and as I observe, it is proposed to reduce the superannuation payments by an amount equal to the Government's reduction in their contribution, I shall lose another 2s. in the £1, which will make my weekly pension £1 16s. instead of £2. (Incidentally, I notice the Victorian State Parliament are not taking under the scheme anything from State superannuation pensioners drawing £104 per annum or less.) When this proposed reduction in superannuation is made, I shall be in the enviable position of a man drawing 16s. a week for self and wife to live on. Having outlined what I (in common with many others) am to have handed out to me after a life of devotion to the ideals of the party, I presume to make the suggestion that in the allocation of any old-age pension, the property which is mortgaged (as in my own case) shall not be considered the property of the pensioner, but of the mortgagee. If something of this kind is not done, I shall certainly be compelled to forfeit to the bank, and what I have paid, as outlined, must be lost. I suppose there are many thousands situated throughout the Commonwealth as myself, and it seems to me the banks may look forward to a good time if these disastrous proposals are carried into effect. The letter proceeds along similar lines. I mention that as a concrete example of the evil effects which are inevitable as a result of the adoption of the proposals in this bill. .The position is regarded so seriously that these old people, who, up to the present, have had no organization such as have the returned soldiers to fight for them, are being forced to get together and organize pensions defence leagues, the first of which is to be formed in Sydney on Saturday next. It is lamentable that a movement of that kind should be forced into existence when a Labour Government is in office. I am also totally opposed to any reduction in war pensions. Honorable members are aware of my opinion in regard to the just claims of returned soldiers. The promises made to them during the war with respect to the payment of pensions and allowances to widows and dependants are solemn obligations of the nation which should be honoured to the full, lt will be to the lasting disgrace of Australia if this House finally agrees to a reduction in invalid and old-age pensions and to cuts in war pensions and allowances. I have heard with extreme regret that persons officiating as representatives of soldiers have surrendered the rights of the soldiers by agreeing to some measure of reduction in war pensions and allowances. I do not believe that decision of the representatives of returned soldiers reflects the opinion of the rank and file of the returned soldiers in Australia. On the contrary, I believe that this surrender on the. part of the soldiers' representatives is, to a large extent if not entirely, the ugly work of reactionaries in charge of soldiers' organizations. I make the statement on my own behalf, and on behalf of the members of our group, that soldiers' organizations, or the ex-soldiers themselves, are not fair in further applying to us for assistance while they allow their own representatives to take up an attitude and arrive at a decision which certainly has not endorsed our action in the past, and which offers us no encouragement to continue in the work we have attempted on behalf of returned soldiers and their dependants. 3465 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - Does the honorable member suggest that, having regard to the financial position, the Commonwealth is justified in paying some of the pensions at present paid ? 3465 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - Did the honorable member have any regard for the financial position of the Commonwealth when he, and those with whom he is associated, sent men to be butchered on the other side of the world? 3465 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Or of what the consequences would be? 3465 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - Tes. 3465 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - That is not an answer to my question. 3465 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - That is my answer to the honorable member's question. I am speaking from the view-point of one who considers that the war-time promises of this country in respect of pensions and allowances to returned soldiers, the wounded and limbless men, the widows and orphans of soldiers, were of such a character that they represented a solemn obligation of the nation to which it is committed for all time, while these unfortunate people are alive This obligation should not ba bartered away under any pretext whatever, but should be honoured to the full. In common with the work we are doing for invalid and old age pensioners and those who are to suffer reductions -in wages and salaries, the members of this group say to our returned soldier comrades that we are prepared to carry on their work; but no longer through those officials who have failed to extend to us some measure of bare courtesy, and hardly any opportunity for consultation. These officials while posing as the representatives of a non-party organization have given many indications that to them non-party means anti-Labour. I suggest to our returned soldier comrades that they should put their own house in order before they can expect a fair deal. Just as the people of this country have reason to feel disappointed with their representation in this House - except on the part of our group - so are the returned soldiers entitled to feel aggrieved at the character of the service rendered through their elected representatives in their present hour of need. 3465 KYX ALP; FLP from 1931 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr C RILEY - They should start a militant minority group. 3465 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - The honorable member would not have a place in it, anyhow. 3465 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - It was a militant minority group that brought into existence the Labour movement responsible for the election of the honorable member to this House. The proposed reduction in the maternity allowance is an attack upon principles which are the most distinctive features of the legislative enactments of the Labour movement, and as such it is to be deeply lamented. It is an attack upon the motherhood of Australia, disguise it as you may. The £260 per annum income limitation to establish eligibility is to be deplored. It destroys the whole character of the proposals as originally introduced by a Labour Government and permits the introduction of inquisitorial methods which will cost very much more than the saving contemplated. I base that contention on the opinion of the Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin) himself who some time ago, when just as strongly opposed to any reduction in the maternity allowance as we are, stated that the policing that would be involved in respect of income limitation to establish eligibility would cost more than would be saved by the proposed reduction. Let us examine briefly some of the backgrounds of these proposals. I said earlier that there are three types, the first of which represents an entire acceptance of the bankers' demands, and as evidence of this I remind honorable members that, following the conference of Premiers held in February last, the bankers presented an ultimatum. I do not know what else to call it. That was the conference at which Mr. Lang launched his proposals known as the Lang plan. 3466 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The " Lang gang ". 3466 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - Mr. Speaker, I invite your attention to an interjection by an honorable member who has not the brains of a sparrow, nor the moral stimulus of a peanut. 3466 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin - Order! I suggest that the honorable member should pay no attention to interjections. All interjections are disorderly. 3466 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - I withdraw that remark and say that the honorable member has the brains of a sparrow and the moral stimulus of a peanut. The ultimatum" of the banks was as follows : - Subject to adequate and equitable reductions in all wages, salaries and allowances, pensions, social benefits of all kinds, interest and other factors which affect the cost of living, the Commonwealth Bank Board will actively co-operate with the trading banks, and the Government of Australia, in sustaining industry' and restoring employment. Such was the stand-and-deliver attitude of the financial interests of the country at that time. But it was resisted by the present Government. In no circumstances, said Ministers, would they consent to do what the banks demanded of them. That they were right we must realize when we recall the struggle which has been going on in this country in recent years. On the one hand we have had predatory financial interests striving for dominance, and opposed to them the Labour party with a specific platform and with a clear mandate to strive for the rejection of the demands of the financial interests. Finally, the fight reached a stage at which the financial interests, through their executive in this Parliament - the Bruce-Page Government - and after a number of financial hawks from overseas had visited this country, were bold enough to advocate the entire abolition of our system of conciliation and arbitration. There was immediately a definite issue placed before the people in circumstances unprecedented in the history of Australia. We all know that the popular will declared emphatically against the menacing aims of the banking interests, and equally emphatically for the platform and policy of the Labour party, the result being the formation of a government pledged to give effect to that platform and policy. . But that Government has now treacherously surrendered that platform and policy by accepting the demands of the hankers. This bill is its expression of that surrender. 3466 KEQ CP 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr KILLEN - Can the honorable member suggest how the Government can pay out money which it has not got and cannot get? 3466 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - I remind the honorable member that apparently there is no difficulty in securing the necessary funds provided we meet the demands of the banking interests. 3466 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - We have to do what they want ! 3466 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - That is so. We must do what the bankers want before money is made available. The position is very much the same as if outlaws secured possession of the entire water supplies of Australia, and, though human beings might be perishing from thirst, refused to make one drop of water available until they were paid whatever price or terms they demanded. In spite of the effect of world causes, the financial chaos which now exists; in Australia is to a large extent due to a forced depression. When everybody knew that credit resources were shrinking, and when even the ordinary activities of public utility bodies on reproductive works could not be continued, and we proposed that the Commonwealth Bank should increase its credit resources to the extent of £20,000,000, to provide work for our workless, starving people we were howled down, and decried as inflationists, repudiationists and the like. What really has happened is that this country has been hard hit. It is like a person who has met with an accident causing a heavy loss of blood. We know that medical science can often remedy the loss of blood by a transfusion of blood, more blood being put into the system. But it is vital that this be done with sufficient promptitude and be in time to save the patient. Yet when we suggested similar financial treatment for our stricken nation we were told that it meant flooding the country with notes, and bringing ruin upon us. " The experience of countries which had increased their note issues - after their manufacturing and business enterprises had been annihilated, and when the step naturally proved ineffective by being too late - was quoted as a reason why Australia should not try to do the same thing. No surgeon, who is not a madman, would endeavour to put blood into a corpse. Yet our friends opposite are apparently anxious that everything in Australia should be utterly smashed before we have a chance of doing something of benefit to it even under the existing economic system. 3467 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - The surgeon does not create artificial blood to put into the human body. 3467 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - Does the honorable member suggest that the bankers create the wealth or the finances of this country? The next point I wish to make is the surrender of the Government to an antisocial economic system which the Labour party and the present Government were brought into existence to fight and remove. In 1921, at the allAustralian Trade Union Conference, new objectives of the Labour party of a more militant type than had formerly been adopted, were agreed upon ; and the delegate who moved the most militant of them all, and, indeed, the principal resolution of the conference, was the present Prime Minister of Australia. 3467 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - He then stood for the "Red" objective. 3467 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - He then stood for the complete attainment of the socialization of industry, distribution and exchange, which is the objective of the Australian Labour movement. It is a principle for which members of the group to which I belong are fighting to-day. 3467 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - He also stood for the council of action. 3467 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - He approved of, advocated, and had a resolution adopted for the setting of up a supreme economic council, which was to take the place of Parliament and administer the affairs of this country in accordance with the principles and platform of the Labour movement, particularly in the direction of giving effect to the policy of the socialization of industry, distribution, and exchange. Every atom of the principles and decisions of that conference has been destroyed by a government at the head of which is the very man responsible for the resolution to which I have just referred. Not the least objectionable feature of this bill is the indication it gives of the abject worship by the present Government of the philosophy and ethics of forces here and elsewhere which have demonstrated that they are the avowed enemies of humanity and Labour. In this bill, and in some of the speeches delivered by members of the Ministry, there is unquestioned acceptance of the opinions and authority of university professors, economists, statisticians and the like. While I have the utmost respect for some university professors, some economists and some statisticians, I submit that if their opinions and theories are to be accepted withoutchallence - I challenge them - and are to be blindly followed by a so-called Labour Government, this Parliament might just as well be abolished, and our legislation entrusted to such men. 3468 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - Yes; make" them a council of action. 3468 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - So far as the workers are affected by this bill, we might just as well have Sir Otto Niemeyer as the Prime Minister and Sir Robert Gibson as the Federal Treasurer. 3468 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - Not a bad idea. 3468 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr ELDRIDGE - Yes, for the honorable member, but not for the citizens of Australia. Has it occurred to our friends that the whole system of university education in this country is open to serious challenge? Professors and graduates of our universities are to-day proving the most ruthless enemies of human progress. 3468 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin - The honorable member's time has expired. 3468 JUB Brisbane NAT 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Charles Mr D CAMERON .- It is surely wise that one should keep constantly in mind throughout this debate the all-important fact that the outstanding need of the day is economy. Nothing but the knowledge that unless we adapt our expenditure to our income the inevitable alternative must be chaos and a national debacle, enables some honorable members to support this legislation. It has been brought home to us that if we do not stand by the plan decided upon at the recent Premiers Conference in Melbourne, we must, as a people, default, and that almost immediately we will find ourselves in a position which would make it impossible to pay any wages or pensions without a probable all-round reduction of 50 per cent. I predict that the pages of our national history relating the events of to-day will be read with special interest and a measure of satisfaction by the generations of Australians to come. Many honorable members, in supporting the proposals of the Premiers Conference, find themselves in an extraordinarily difficult position. The Prime Minister and his supporters are, to a great extent, destroying some of the foundations of the edifice which is emblematical of their political faith, and which they have been building for many years. In their belated realization of the nation's dilemma, and consequent support of this and other measures which are necessary to give effect to the rehabilitation plan decided upon in Melbourne, many honorable members are risking their political lives. I have listened in vain to hear at least one member on the Government benches, who is at present opposed to the policy introduced by his own party, admit that the Prime Minister and his supporters arc entitled to some sympathy to-day. The bill deals with the following decision of the Melbourne conference: - A reduction of 20 per cent. in all adjustable governmental expenditure as compared with the year ending the 30th June, 1930, including all emoluments, wages, salaries and pensions paid by the governments, whether fixed by statute or otherwise, such reduction to be equitably effected. The bill is sub-divided into nine parts, and I shall now refer to only three subdivisions, reserving any remarks that I have to make upon the others until the committee stage. I shall first of all deal with war pensions. I fail to appreciate the remark of the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Eldridge) that the representatives of the ex-service men's organizations are reactionaries. He seemed to resent the work that the committee representative of those associations had done. Personally, 1 think it is one of the finest acts standing to the credit of the ex-service men of this country. 3468 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr Eldridge - I suggest that the rank and file of the ex-soldiers think otherwise. 3468 JUB NAT 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Charles Mr D CAMERON - The recommendations of the committee representative of ex-service men's organizations which have been accepted by the Government are in general accord with my ideas as to the method of effecting an unavoidable reduction in our annual war pensions and repatriation liabilities with the smallest measure of hardship to those most vitally concerned. I have long held the opinion, and I expressed it a week or two ago in this House, that an appeal to those who could voluntarily relinquish whole or part of their pensions, for the time being, would be successful; but when I first urged this step I found that I was ploughing, more or less, a lonely furrow. The honorable members for Balaclava (Mr. White) and Reid (Mr. Coleman) both agreed that the suggestion was worth considering, but I do not think that many honorable members had much faith in the success of such an appeal. The appeal which the Government has now promised to make along those lines, will, I believe, materially assist in bringing about a further saving of £281,770, which the committee has accepted the responsibility of endeavouring to effect. There has been much talk about the recommendations of this committee, and it has been said that certain war pensioners, particularly those who are unmarried, will make little or no sacrifice, while the great burden' will fall on the married ex-soldiers, because of reductions being made in the pensions of their dependants. About 74,000 ex-service men are receiving pensions, and, of those, approximately 16,000 are unmarried. The great majority of the unmarried pensioners suffer from serious disablements, which, undoubtedly, have made it impossible for them to establish homes or to marry. It does not necessarily follow that because they are single they have no dependants. The dependants who are now to suffer reductions in pensions include brothers, sisters, and various other persons. It is, therefore, unfair to say that war pensioners who are single will, under this proposal, escape a share in the general sacrifice, and I have ascertained that many of them will be ready to respond to the appeal for voluntary relinquishment. Other war pensioners at the moment -the subject of criticism, are those doing work, usually clerical work - ordinary work for an ordinary man. They are working and living more or less sheltered lives, but in most instances their expectation of life - using a phrase common in life assurance circles - is bad. They are constantly in and out of hospital and the end may come for them at any time. For years they have been carrying out ordinary clerical work, and it is true it is difficult to tell, from a casual glance, that they suffer any disability. It is contended that these men should not be in receipt of pensions. That contention, I consider, is quite unfair, because they are suffering from real and definite war disabilities. I appreciate the fact that the Government has undertaken to make an appeal to those who can afford to relinquish the whole or part of their pensions on the understanding that their rights will be safeguarded, and that should their disabilities increase, or their ability to earn a living diminish, they will have the right to apply again for a pension. While it will not be denied that an earnest attempt has been made to meet the nation's obligations to the dependants of those who, on its behalf, went down into the "Valley of the Shadow ", and for those who fought and suffered in its defence, it must also be admitted that the reputation which the Australian Imperial Force gained for gallantry and devotion to duty during war years, the manner in which 99 per cent, of our ex-soldiers reestablished themselves in their own homeland, playing important parts in the affairs of their country during the years of peace which have followed the Great War - their splendid record, too, so far as meeting their obligations in connexion with the provision of war-service homes - have all been greatly enhanced by the way in which they now accept their share in a fresh sacrifice. I come now to old-age and invalid pensions. No honorable member desires to reduce either soldier pensions or invalid or old-age pensions. It is poor comfort after all for an old-age or invalid pensioner to be told that Australia, even with the proposed 20 per cent, reduction, will still be paying considerably more per head for invalid and old-age pensions than is any other country. It is claimed that with the lower prices for commodities now obtaining, there will not be any actual reduction in purchasing power as the result of a 20 per cent, reduction in pensions. The ex-Prime Minister (Mr. Bruce), when addressing a meeting recently in Melbourne, was reported to have urged that the proposed cuts in old age and invalid pensions should be viewed from the stand-point of preventing the loss of the pension altogether in a national catastrophe. He pointed out that during his term as Prime Minister old-age and invalid pensions were increased by £5,400,000 ; that Australia at that time was enjoying great prosperity; that he was justified in not being prepared to leave the unfortunate pensioners, who were living on a bare pittance, in a situation different from that of the rest of the community; that the nation at that time was in a position to extend its social services, but that now the social services must share in the general sacrifice. The Under-Treasurers and experts, when recommending a reduction of 20 per cent, in pensions, said - " If this reduction is made, an increase in pensions annually, in proportion to any rise in the cost of living, might be considered. That is a commendable suggestion, but whether it can be carried out must depend on the finances of the country. If 17s. 6d. will give the old-age and invalid pensioner the same purchasing power as fi did two or three years ago - all of these pensions being obviously used to meet cost of living expenses - then surely many of the objections raised to the proposed reduction are based on a misunderstanding. The proposed amendment regarding value of property needs further explanation. I am at a loss to understand why the value of the home in which the pensioner lives cannot remain exempt from calculation as property. I should like to know what saving is expected as a result of this amendment. Surely this proposal, if given effect, will debar many aged persons from receiving any pension at all. The value of their house will not provide them with clothes and food, and it is now impossible to sell property at any price, even if the occupant desires or is compelled to try to sell his home. I have no doubt that in committee the Treasurer will further explain the proposed amendment. Then the invalid pensioner, who is without family or friends, cannot receive the pension unless he is totally and permanently incapacitated. What is his position if he has no friends or relatives? Could not exceptions be made in the case of invalid pensioners who are entirely without family or friends? I suggest that, at least, particulars in this connexion could be obtained from each pensioner by means of a questionnaire. If that were done, we might be able to do something to assist these aged and infirm people in their declining and lonely years. In. regard to the proposed reduction by 20 per cent, of all adjustable government expenditure, the decision of the Melbourne conference concluded with these words : " Such reductions to be equitably effected ". I am of opinion, after a careful perusal of the Treasurer's speech when moving the second reading of this bill, that the Government is entitled to claim that every effort has been made to make the reductions equitable so far as wages and salaries are concerned. As I understand the proposal, adult male officers will suffer a fiat rate reduction of £34 on account of the decline in the cost of living since the 1st July, 1930, and a further cut of the remaining salaries varying from 3 per cent, to approximately 24 per cent., but no adult male officer of the Commonwealth will be reduced below the basic wage of £182. However, all the economies and reductions we may propose must be considered as only the first step towards the economic and financial rehabilitation of Australia. Until the great exporting industries - wheat, wool, beef, and metals - can be carried on at a profit, all our other efforts will not lift Australia out of its difficulties. In recent years the exporting primary industries have borne far too great a proportion of the fall in national income. Giving evidence before the Parliamentary Select Committee, which is inquiring into the operation of banks, the Government Statistician of New South Wales pointed out -that the wool clip in 1927- 28 was worth £76,564,000; in 1928- 29, £71,000,000;- and in 1929-30, £43,827,000. The estimated value for. the present year is about £33,250,000. 3470 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Including the exchange ? 3470 JUB NAT 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Charles Mr D CAMERON - Yes. The wheat crop in 1927-28 was worth £53,042,000, and in 1929-30, £10,037,000. Eoi- 1930-31 the estimate is £23,000,000. In conclusion I repeat that the alternative facing the nation, if the Commonwealth and State Governments do not give effect to the rehabilitation scheme agreed upon at the Melbourne conference, is default, and a financial smash in which we all shall be involved. 3470 KFS Henty 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr GULLETT .- Support of this measure imposes upon honorable members perhaps the most unpleasant task that has yet fallen to them. One would expect, therefore, that the opposition to it would be simple and effective. I have, however, listened in vain to the speeches of the opponents of the measure and all the various economies and reductions it proposes, without hearing one sound argument. Instead of genuine criticism we have heard wretched political pander to prejudice and contemptible electioneering born of the deplorable brawling amongst the Labour factions. The opponents of the bill have offered no practicable alternative to the Government's proposals. For example, not one of them said a word about the present financial and economic condition of Australia. They did not discuss the only reason for these reductions or the sole aim we have in advocating them. Again, they slurred over the all-important mitigating effect of the great fall in the cost of living which ensures that the victims of these reductions will not be materially worse off than they were before prices declined. Those honorable members who constitute the Lang group in this chamber have offered as an alternative, by inference, what is known as the Lang plan. I marvel at their effrontery in daring to mention in this chamber that calamitous policy, which in the great State of New South Wales has been a sheer maker of misery. The most populous, and incomparably the richest State of the union has relatively more unemployment and more wretchedness than any other part of Australia. This so-called leader, operating a so-called plan, has inflicted misery after misery upon the workers he was elected to serve. A government savings bank, which, having regard to the magnitude of its operations, was second only to one other savings bank in the world, has been deliberately smashed. Obligations in respect of the overseas debt of New South Wales have been wantonly repudiated. The State, under its present leadership, is without credit and without honour. And the Lang plan is all that the honorable gentlemen in the corner offer as an alternative to the proposals of the Government ! What are the objectives of the plan, of which this bill forms part? In the first place it proposes the only means by which we can avoid national bankruptcy and all the miseries that it connotes. Next, it is the only plan that has been evolved which will, assuredly, although perhaps not immediately, restore faith in this country. 3471 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - More than that is required. 3471 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr GULLETT - Can the honorable member suggest one other step that should take precedence of those proposed in the plan ? It embodies the only policy that will avert the bankruptcy that looms so near ahead. I look confidently to it to begin immediately to resuscitate industry. I do not say that the restoration will be instant, but almost at once signs of a general revival of industry will be apparent. And, above all, it will, I believe, promote immediately an increase of employment which, surely, is one of the most urgent objectives of every honorable member, and every person of humane feelings. . I am not dealing with interest rates, but the same argument that was used in support of the proposed reduction of the interest rate on the internal public debt, applies equally to the reductions covered by this bill. We are proposing to contract the interest burden to the level of our present capacity to pay; the only reason for the reduction is that we cannot pay more and remain solvent. We believe, moreover, that none of the economies proposed are punitive; the temporary hardship We are inflicting will be followed immediately by great good, even to those who are called upon to make sacrifices for the time being. As we reduce the interest on the bond we shall increase its buoyancy and enhance its capital value. In other words, we aim at such a restoration of credit as will carry the market price of the 4 per cent, bond to par. I turn now to the pensioners. This bill, properly considered, does not destroy pensions; it preserves them. At the present time the position of pensioners is gravely insecure. The Prime Minister told the House that unless corrective and preventive measures were taken immediately, the Government would not he able to pay after the end of this month to public servants, pensioners, or bondholders, more than 12s. in the £1. If we do not adopt this plan we shall be heading for inevitable chaos, and the Government will be unable to continue to pay pensions. By the end of this month, if we do not resort to the sacrifices which this bill proposes, the Commonwealth would be fortunate if it were able to pay more than 50 per cent, of its present obligations to pensioners and bondholders. This plan will ensure that the pensioners will receive at least 80 per cent, of the rates they now enjoy. It is unfortunate that a reduction of even 20 per cent, should be inevitable, but I submit to honorable members, and even to those who have spoken against the bill, that it is incomparably better to guarantee to the pensioners 80 per cent, of what they now get - which owing to the fall in the cost of living will buy as much as 100 per cent, bought two years ago - than by the end of this month to reduce the present payments by 50 per cent. Turning now to the proposed reduction of salaries and wages of public servants, those honorable members who intend to vote against the bill are charging its supporters with a callous disregard for the welfare of government employees, as though the sole purpose of the bill was to reduce salaries and wages in the Public Service. That is not the position. The measure is designed to restore confidence, and it expresses the desire of all the governments in Australia to pay their public servants to the utmost of their capacity. Obviously, if the wage fund is depleted, it is impossible to pay government employees on the scale hitherto obtaining. The alternative, as we well know, is bankruptcy. Honorable members in the corner would not be followers of Mr. Lang if that were not so. They stand for national bankruptcy, with all its evil consequences. If one may judge their attitude by their speeches in this chamber, they would do for all the workers of Australia what Mr. Lang has done for the workers of New South Wales. That is the example which they now ask us to follow. Dealing now with the proposal to reduce the pensions payable to ex-soldiers, I think that every member of this House, irrespective of the party to which he belongs, will acknowledge that the Commonwealth has not been ungenerous in its treatment to all classes of pensioners. They have been treated more generously than have pensioners in any other country in the world. This fact must stand to the credit of the Commonwealth at a time like this when national adversity compels the Government to reduce payments to our returned soldiers. No honorable member would support these reductions if they could be averted. The fact that the bill is being supported by members from three major parties in this House is an admission of the complete inevitability of these reductions. The payment of pensions to disabled soldiers is an obligation as sacred and binding as any contract can be. Nevertheless, the discharge of this obligation, and of the other commitments necessary to carry on the activities of the Commonwealth, such as salaries payable to our public servants, must have relationship to the capacity of the Government to meet them at any given time. I submit that all the Governments exploited to the utmost their capacity to meet these obligations before they agreed to the proposals contained in the plan for the financial and economic rehabilitation of the Commonwealth, and I repeat that reductions in Public Service salaries and pensions, as part of the general scheme, are inevitable if we are to avoid national bankruptcy. I believe, further, that when all the proposals contained in the plan have been given effect, there will be a definite improvement in the figures relating to unemployment, consequent upon a revival in industry. This, I suggest, is the objective - the re-employment of our idle and distressed workers. The first -step is the adoption of those measures necessary to avoid national bankruptcy, to be followed by proposals for the restoration of confidence in industry generally. I deplore, as I have said, the necessity to make any reductions in the pensions payable to our disabled soldiers. I am not unmindful of promises made during the early stages of the war, but I cannot forget the plight of very many returned soldiers who are not pensioners. It is, unhappily, true that tens of thousands of them are in the ranks of the unemployed. Although these men are not in receipt of pensions because they are not suffering from war disabilities - from that point of view their sacrifices have not been as great as those of war pensioners - nevertheless their service in defence of their country was as great and our obligation to help them is as binding to-day as ever it was. I suggest, therefore, that among returned soldiers as a whole, pensioners and non-pensioners in a time like the present there must be some pooling of the resources of the nation. I firmly believe that when our ex-soldiers in receipt of pensions realize that some reduction is essential if we are to avoid national bank,ruptcy and increase the volume of employment, they will acquiesce in the sacrifice required of them far more cheerfully than some honorable members would have us believe. The position of exsoldiers who are out of work deserves the earnest consideration and support of all sections of the community, even if the measures taken to alleviate their distress inflict some further sacrifices upon those returned, soldiers in receipt of pensions. The same may be said of the old-age and invalid pensioners. The unemployed are in the main made up of the children and grandchildren of those who are receiving the old-age pension, so any sacrifices that may be made to afford relief will indicate the existence of a true community of interest. For these reasons I offer no apology for my vote in support of the bill. As for the Public Service, I regret that it is necessary to make reductions in salaries and wages, particularly in the case of those on the level of the basic wage; but we should remember that up to date, Permanent employees of the Commonwealth have not been called upon to make any contribution to the rehabilitation of the nation. They have been sheltered, as have no other class of the community. They have not lost one day's work, or one shilling of their pay. By contrast, for the last two or three years the basic wage in industry has been reduced by about 20 per cent., and there has been a decline in the cost of living by approximately 20 per cent. All that the Government is now asking of the Public Service is that it shall suffer a reduction of 20 per cent. Again the alternative is bankruptcy and chaos, as well as widespread retrenchment- and wholesale dismissals even in the ranks of permanent employees. In the circumstances, there should be no doubt about the decision. I congratulate the Government upon its proposal to reduce bounty payments. I am pleased to know that the gold bounty is to be reduced by 50 per cent, and other bounties by 20 per cent. But again the Government is somewhat inconsistent. Its proposals touch only the bounty side of the tariff. I do not suggest that the Ministry singled out the primary industries for punishment, but I cannot help remarking that, with the exception of the iron and steel bounties, practically all the reductions relate to bounties on primary production. It would therefore seem that again the primary producer has to carry the greatest share of the burden, and once more the secondary industries are favoured. I must, however, admit that it was impossible for the Government, in the time available to it, to bring down tariff reduction proposals as part of its economy scheme. In this matter, I am aware that I have not the support of members of the Country party. Still I do not think it is practicable to give relief by a flat rate tariff reduction of 25 per cent, or 30 per cent. A proposal along those lines would scarcely touch hundreds of protective items in the wholesale monopoly tariff imposed by this Government. 3473 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Would it not be practicable to have a flat rate reduction as a start? 3473 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr GULLETT - I do not think it would. 3473 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - Tariff revision cannot be done piecemeal. 3473 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr GULLETT - That is so; but I should have been pleased if the Government had declared that a revision of the tariff was part of the general economy scheme. I should like the Government to have declared, in connexion with this measure, that it intended, immediately following upon the passage of this bill and the other rehabilitation bills, to deal with the tariff, with a view to giving relief to the people of Australia generally. The tariff to-day is very burdensome on us all, even upon the very manufacturers whom it is most designed to benefit; but I particularly wish to see it amended in order to give relief to the primary industries throughout the Commonwealth. 3474 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Why not go back to the position that obtained before this Government came into office? 3474 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Why not go back to the 1914 tariff? Mr.GULLETT. - The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Killen) says " Why not go back to the Pratten tariff?", and immediately the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) says "No, go back to the 1914 tariff ". It is just that divergence of opinion, as represented by the views of two honorable members of the same party, that makes it impossible to deal with tariff matters in a hurry. The tariff is too controversial a matter to handle in that way. We have all witnessed the mess made by the present Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Forde), because he has dabbled hastily with the tariff. I do not believe for a moment that any good purpose would be served by linking up the tariff with the present scheme, but I regret that the Government has not seen fit, seeing that there is to he a general overhaul of our economic and financial affairs, to say that, immediately after these bills are passed, the tariff will be brought under urgent review. I propose to vote for this bill in all its stages. 3474 KLM Melbourne ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - The preamble to the bill under discussion reads thus - A bill for an act to make necessary provision for carrying out a plan agreed on by the Commonwealth and States for meeting the grave financial emergency existing in Australia, re-establishing financial stability, and restoring industrial and general prosperity. The honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) complained that we never speak of the position of the country. Well, I do not know that I have ever spoken without alluding to it. God has blessed this country, through nature, as no other country has been blessed. In proportion to our population of 6,500,000 people, there is more food grown in Australia than any other country in the whole wide world. Had this country been blasted by a famine, and we were short of food, J could understand the cry of the honorable member for Henty that we were facing insolvency. The present trouble in Australia has been brought about by the failure of the financial system of the world. This calamity has demonstrated the complete breakdown of the capitalistic system as expressed in the gold standard. When the legislators - statesmen, if you like - and the financiers of the world decreed that the gold standard should obtain, they sentenced one-third of God's people to wretchedness and misery. The whole of the East - China, with its teeming 400,000,000, India, with its 350,000,000, the Straits Settlement, and even Japan - are suffering under this cursed system no less than are those countries in which the gold standard, as such, obtains. Can the honorable member who says that this country is faced with bankruptcy, deny that our crops have been rich, or that last year the farmers, nobly answering the call of the Government and of this Parliament, largely increased their wheat acreage? 3474 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - And nearly ruined themselves in doing it. 3474 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I understand that. In response to the appeal, the farmers sowed an extra 4,000,000 acres, and this Parliament - not the Government - has let them down. When the Government tried to do its duty by the farmers, the Senate rejected the bill submitted. How I wish the people had the right of the referendum, initiative and recall, which is a plank of the Labour platform, but a plank upon which, I am afraid, the Government is going to sleep. 3474 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Does not the honorable member think that if the people had such power they might have recalled the present Government some time ago? 3474 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - And they might have recalled the late Government, also, if it got its deserts. Perhaps they would recall the butter bonus which the honorable member fastened on the people of Australia. How many of the people would agree to pay 3d. per lb. extra for their butter because the honorable member managed to induce some Ministers to agree to his proposal, and a fool govern- mont agreed to put the measure through. I wish the people of Australia could understand what they are really called upon to pay. I am a protectionist right up to the hilt. I am what is known a3 a new protectionist, hut the new protection is not understood by the people, and to that extent I agree with my friend opposite. I turn now to the subject of the maternity allowance. I propose to read the opening remarks made by myself when the Maternity Allowance Bill was first introduced into this Parliament, and honorable members may appreciate what I feel now that the Government is compelled by stress of circumstances to propose the alteration of the conditions governing the granting of the allowance. I do not impugn the honesty of the Government, but when I see a Labour Government proposing to abandon part of what Andrew Fisher, that great Labour leader, accomplished in the past, I cannot but feel regretful, and honorable members will sympathize with my regrets. When I was speaking on the Maternity Allowance Bill - not the bonus bill, as its enemies tried to brand it so that they could fasten on those who were to draw the allowances the stamp of pauperism - I said, on 24th February, 1912 - I have read somewhere that when a man reaches the height of his ideals he is either supremely happy or quite the reverse. To-night, I am delighted that one of the ideals of my life has been realized - an ideal formed amidst the misery and wretchedness of London. I was at one time obstetric officer at St. Mary's Hospital in London. My duty was to look after the unfortunate mother who stood like a sentinel betwixt life and death, handing on the torch of life - which to me is a proof of immortality - to the child coming into the world. Every mother who could not afford to send for a doctor came to the hospital, and they received with gratitude the poor bag of linen which the hospital could afford to lend them. Washed and re-washed, this linen was in such a condition that, under the hammer, it would not have fetched a shilling, but those poor people were grateful to receive it. Some of the occurrences there were of a most harrowing nature. One awful case lingers still in my memory. It was not bleeding in the ordinary sense: the blood was simply flowing. I had to send to the superintendent of the hospital, because, as a student, I did not feel competent to deal with it. In those days the treatment was to hold the womb to keep it from enlarging. Better methods have been discovered since, I am pleased to say. We had to relieve each other every three minutes. We had our coats off, and our sleeves rolled up above the elbows, and when we were relieved we wrung our hands to rid ourselves of the blood, and the filthy bugs which crawled everywhere. After such an experience as that I said that the mothers of Australia ought, next to God, to thank Andrew Fisher and the Labour party for bringing in the system of maternity allowances in this country. God only knows what the mothers will say of the Labour party now that it proposes to take away those benefits. The great merit of Andrew Fisher's measure was that no stamp of pauperism could be applied by the conservative party to those who drew the allowance. No stigma of poverty attached to any mother who, exercising her God-given gift of bringing life into the world, applied for and received the maternity allowance. More lives have been lost at childbirth than have been lost in all the battles that have ever raged in the world. The death rate from this cause, I am sorry to say, is at present increasing in at least one of the States of the Commonwealth, and the deaths .are among the mothers as well as the children. The words that left the lips of Andrew Fisher when introducing his Maternity Allowance Bill were worthy of the lips of Christ, who taught 2,000 years ago. Andrew Fisher at that time did a good work for the child and the woman. Now, by discriminating between the different classes, and by making it possible to stamp as paupers those who apply for a maternity allowance, we are tearing away the protection which he afforded to the mothers. 3475 KEQ 0 0 KILLEN, William Mr Killen - Does the honorable member think that persons of independent ' means should be able to draw the maternity bonus? 3475 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - That they should draw it is a matter for their own con- sciences, but it should be their right to draw it as women exercising God's gift. 3476 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - But the honorable member must know that there are other ways of assisting these people without giving them this money. 3476 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - If the honorable member has such an inventive mind, let him devise some better way. I thank the Treasurer (Mr. Theodore) for making an allusion to myself which I value highly. It is proposed to reduce the present expenditure on old-age and war pensions, which now amount to £11,700,000 and £8,000,000 per annum respectively. Because I objected to one person being singled out for preferential treatment, I opposed the proposal to pay £4,000 to the widow of the late General Bridges. I say now, as I said then, that every woman who lost a husband whom she loved suffered as great a loss as did the wife of any general. Does the Government propose to take back any of the money granted in that instance? It could not do so if it desired; but it will take from maimed men, who are alive, a proportion of the pension paid to them. I have in my possession a book of photographs of men who were maimed in the Great War, and although I am a medical man accustomed to unpleasant sights, I feel sick at heart when I look at these photographs of men, made in the image of God, who have been destroyed in war. I have shown the book to a number of people and asked them whether they think that the pensions of these men should be reduced. Not once have I received an affirmative reply. I do not expect ever to hear any man with a conscience advocate that their pensions should be reduced. 3476 JZK 0 0 COLEMAN, Percy Mr Coleman - They are not going to be reduced now. 3476 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Some clipping is already being done around the edges ; and in order to avoid bankruptcy further cuts might be proposed. Australia has spent approximately £780,000,000 in prosecuting the war and in dealing with its after effects. The actual expenditure to the 30th June, 1929, was £713,977,000. A further two years' expenditure at the rate of £30,000,000 per annum would bring the cost to approximately £780,000,000 at the 30th June, 1931. On the basis of pensions costing £19,700,000 per annum, that £780,000,000 represents 39 years expenditure on pensions. In reply to a question asked recently by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Parkhill), whether a person in receipt of an invalid pension of only 5s. a week would have his pension reduced by 2s. 6d. a week, the Treasurer stated that all pensions would be reduced by 2s. 6d. a week. If the Government stopped there, the position might, perhaps, not be so bad; but it goes further, for it proposes to take into account the value of any house owned by an applicant for a pension. That proposal is enough to cause Andrew Fisher to turn in his grave, if, indeed, such a thing is possible. 3476 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Andrew Fisher never faced a task "approaching that which the present Prime Minister has had to face. 3476 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I know that. As a lawyer, the Attorney-General knows that Australia is a richer country to-day than when it was held by the aborigines, even though since the coming of the white man gold to the value of £600,000,000 has been taken from the country. When dealing with applications for pensions, it is proposed to take into account the amount by which the value of any house owned by an applicant exceeds £500. Apparently, no aged person in the community must live in a house worth more than £500 ! In effect, the Government says, "How dare any person save his money in order to build a house worth more than £500 "? I hope that when this proposal comes before us honorable members will let their hearts dictate their actions, and will agree to increase the exemption beyond £500. The proposal does not say whether the valuation is to be made according to normal values, or according to values in the present depressed state of the market. If an applicant for a pension owns a house valued at £800, the amount in excess of £500 is £300. From that is deducted £50, leaving £250. The practice of the Pensions Department is to deduct £1 for every £10 the applicant has in the bank or holds in property. That means a further deduction of £25, which, added to £6 10s., which represents 2s. 6d. a week for 52 weeks, makes £31 10s. to be deducted from the pension of £52. That is not equality of sacrifice. Rather than treat old-age pensioners in that way, I would accept the plan so distasteful to the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) ; I would bring down to £500 the salary or income, not only of every public servant, but also of every private individual in the country. The Prime Minister (Mr. Scullin) made a mistake when he said that the plan proposed by Mr. Lang to reduce to £500 all Public Service salaries above that amount would not produce more than £100,000 in revenue. In 1913, before the war, there were 33 public servants in receipt of salaries of £1,000 per annum and upwards. By 1929 the number of such officials had increased to 181. Their salaries, which amounted to £62,895 in 1913, had increased to £296,995 by 1929. The salaries of 181 officers at £500 per annum would amount to £90,500, which, deducted from the £296,995, would leave- £206,495, which sum would represent the saving on that item alone. I would go further than that, for I would adopt the policy followed by England during the war when food was rationed. At that time only those persons who had children, or were sick, were able to obtain butter; others had to be content with margarine. Meat was obtainable only twice a week. Those who saved their tickets obtained a decent meal of meats occasionally. "Were we to adopt a system of food rationing we could soon wipe off our overseas indebtedness. 3477 KDJ 0 0 ELDRIDGE, John Mr Eldridge - Does the honorable member suggest that as an emergency measure ? 3477 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - Under a system of rationing every human being would have so much meat, butter, tea, bread, milk and other commodities. Invalids, of course, would be given a little extra. 3477 JOS 0 0 BELL, George Mr Bell - What about the surplus? 3477 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - It could be used to pay off the indebtedness on our bonds. In that way we could discharge our financial obligations. I hope that then we should resolve never to borrow money overseas again. It is from the latter habit that our troubles arise; it enables financial magnates to control our destinies. To illustrate the power of gold, the Bankers' Magazine stated that a few very wealthy financiers went from the United States of America to London, where they bought largely in American stocks that were low, and sold largely in English stocks that were high. They then took £11,000,000 in English gold from Great Britain to New York. The transaction brought about a depreciation in English stocks to the extent of £115,000,000, and caused an appreciable rise in the price of American stocks that they had bought. How much money those men made out of the transaction is not mentioned. That is but a small example of the practices of the financial magnates of the United States of America and Europe. It is estimated that the value of Australia's wealth is £4,000,000,000. Private wealth, lands, improvements, farms, houses, machinery, furniture, and everything else represent £3,000,000,000, while forest, water conservation, wharfs, railways, and the remaining services that go to make Australia a civilized country, make up the other £1,000,000,000. Why does the Government not declare the present to be a state of national emergency, and issue banknotes based upon that £4,000,000,000. When the associated banks of Australia issued notes, - those tokens had engraved on them the promise to pay in sterling, which meant either silver or gold. With the advent of the Commonwealth note-issue - and how I welcomed it, and still rejoice that there is only one note-issuing authority in Australia - the promise was that payment would be made in gold. That promise is untrue. Its hypocrisy is similar to that of the refusal of the post office in past years to carry letters that were addressed to Tattersalls, Hobart. A number of great financial experts and bankers come to Australia and tender advice to us. Why do not they cure the financial ills of poor old England, with its terrible burden of unemployment? If I were asked what country we should send to for financial advisers I should suggest only two. One is France. During the period when that country had standardized its franc at 124.2 to the English pound, it collected £300,000,000 in gold and raised its: gold reserve from £40,000,000 to £330,000,000. Last year France accumulated another £100,000,000 in gold, and to-day there is less unemployment in that country than in any country that has the gold standard. France has left the old road of finance, with its ruts and obstructions, and taken to a financial thoroughfare more suited "to modern needs. The other country to which I should refer is Venezuela, which celebrated its 100th anniversary by paying off the whole of its national debt. 3478 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - How do the wages and conditions of the workers of France compare with those of the workers of England? 3478 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I suppose that I know France better than I do any State in Australia, with the exception of Victoria. I resided in Paris in my student days, and acted as guide, in order to add to my income. In those days I could live better in France on £1 a week than I could in England on 30s. I know the time when I lived in London on 10s. a week, not without hardship, I confess. So I speak from experience. I found that, as a rule, the food of the workers of the Continent was better than that pf the workers of Great Britain. Nominal wages were much less, but their purchasing power was infinitely greater. I know, too, that fish could be bought more reasonably in Germany than it could in England. Financial experts tell us "Inflate and you will ruin the country". I say "Deflate, and you will doubly ruin it". Of the two evils, great deflation or great inflation, the former is the worst. If notes were issued, based upon the £4,000,000,000 which represents the assets of Australia, the issue could be increased as the population increased. It is well for us to follow the example of the Homeland. When the fiduciary issue of banknotes reached £300,000,000 in Great Britain, the people of that country became timid, and its Government very wisely resorted to a greater use of the silver standard. In 1918, Great Britain purchased 80,000,000 oz. of silver from the United States of America, and even to-day it has to hold a reserve of £5,000,000 of silver in its treasury. The Homeland reduced the content of its silver coinage more than has been the case since the time of Edward the Confessor, with the exception of the 37th year of the reign of Henry VIII. In Australia, each silver coin contains 925 parts of silver and 75 parts of alloy, whereas the British silver coin contains 500 parts of silver and 500 parts of alloy. The result is that, using the same quantity of metal, and with silver at ls. an oz., Britain could issue silver coins to the face value of £10,175,000, whereas Australia could issue similar coins to the value of only £5,500,000. The only real objection that bankers and others have made to the adoption of the silver standard is that the silver would take up too much room. But all the silver that has been mined in the world from the days when the Spaniards took the rich silver mines of South America from the native people until now would not half fill this chamber. Even if the bankers had not room to store the silver, the Treasury could take charge of it. I do not think that any honorable member will deny that next to gold, silver is the best form of currency that we have. If we had had a large silver currency, the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales need not have closed its doors. In any case, the Commonwealth Bank should have come to its assistance. I shall vote against this bill because it violates the policy of the Labour party. I look upon the platform of the Labour party as I look upon a Bible. During my 40 years of public life, I have revered the principles of this party, and I had hopes of seeing them put into practice, but now, at my advanced age, that time seems further off than ever. It appears that these principles will never be expressed in legislation until the referendum, initiative and recall is part of our machinery of government. When that time comes, the people may compel the Parliament of the day to circulate a commonsense currency based upon the value of public and private property, which to-day is estimated at £4,000,000,000. The health officer of Melbourne recently said that many people are losing their virility because of the lack of proper food. How can people properly nourish themselves on 5s. 6d. per week ? I admire my fellow Australians because they have suffered the present conditions for so long. Our greatest safeguards against revolution are the old-age and invalid pension and the war pension. The old always appeal to the young to assist them; hut if the ex-soldiers appeal to the young to-day, I do not know what may happen. During these last sad months, 1. have been afraid to talk to the unemployed because I could not trust myself. I have been afraid that by addressing them I would do harm, and I do not desire to do that. As a medical man, I would advise men to go to gaol in these cold winter months, rather than attempt to feed and clothe themselves on 5s. 6d. per week. It would cost the country more if they went to gaol, but they would be better off. I do not wish to be misunderstood. This Government has done more for the unemployed than any Government which has been in office during my long public life. But there has never been a time when the conditions have been so bad as they are now. I have studied history, and I know that even in countries without a super-abundance of food and wealth generally, it has been considered that the danger point was reached when 22 per cent, of the people were unemployed. We have gone beyond that point to 25 per cent. If we would adopt the silver standard for our currency, we could make a profit of 450 per cent, on the money wo minted, and this would enable us to provide work for the unemployed. If the nations of the world ultimately adopted bi-metallism, such a profit would not be possible, for eastern countries always endeavour to put the full value of the silver into the money they mint. Speaking of silver reminds me that to-day 46 per cent, of the unionists of Broken Hill are out of work. I have great sympathy for the unemployed miners in the silver lead mines and in the coal mines. The coal-miners were promised that if Labour were returned to power the mines would bo re-opened in a fortnight; hut that promise was not fulfilled. 3479 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - There is another strike on the coal-field. 3479 KLM ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I wish we could settle all strikes. If we would cease worshipping the god of gold, and make it possible for the people to feed and clothe themselves adequately, strikes would be unnecessary. I hope that this bill will be amended in certain important respects. I am sorry that the Government will not declare a state of emergency and issue a currency based upon the £4,000,000,000 worth of public and private property in Australia. The day must come, unless things improve, when our people will tire of starving on 5s. 6d. per week. The dole system is not a good one. We know what is happening in England to-day. Reports have appeared in newspapers that thousands of young men have grown up who have never known what it is to work, and that girls are growing into womanhood and marrying on the dole. Is that a state of civilization to he desired? Many years ago, I visited the South Sea Islands. I found that, even in cannibal villages, a cannibal could take possession of an unoccupied block of land and make a home for himself. What would happen if any one of our unemployed men took possession of a vacant block of land in any part of the Commonwealth ? I admit that our standard of living is higher than the standard of some other countries; but we should improve it. To-day we are breaking it down. The power of gold is proving too great for us. I protest against the provisions of this bill. The measure is wholly objectionable to me, and my conscience, which has never yet deceived me, tells me that I am right in opposing it. 3479 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- -The honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) told us in the early part of his speech that Australia was a marvellously wealthy country, which was endowed with every advantage ; but, later, he said that conditions were all wrong here, and that other countries were to blame for it. To a great extent, the present position of Australia is due to the way in which the affairs of the country have been mismanaged by the politician, who has passed all kinds of grand-motherly legislation, instead of giving industry a fair chance. I was struck by the ominous silence on the part of honorable members opposite regarding this bill, I do not know whether a division will be taken on the second reading, but, apart from those representing the Lang group, few members opposite have spoken on the measure. I should like the Government to state frankly what it proposes to do in connexion with the default of the New South Wales Government. The rest of Australia cannot be expected to pay the costs of this misgoverned State. If sacrifices are to be made, they should be shared by all sections. I admit that the present position is most difficult, but it has been complicated to a great extent by the long time taken by the Government in making up its mind what it would do to get Australia out of its terrible predicament. The Government's own supporters have been placed in a false position, and probably half their number will vote against the Ministry on this measure. Although the Government accepted the advice tendered to it by Sir Otto Niemeyer, and agreed with the State Premiers to the adoption of a plan for the balancing of budgets, it allowed the finances of the Commonwealth to drift for a long period, with the result that every section of the community is now called upon to make greater sacrifices than would have been necessary had prompt action been taken. There is scope for a considerable cutting down of governmental expenditure, because of the needless overlapping of the activities of Federal and State Departments. The Public Service Board was established at great expense, and now the Government has appointed a Public Service Arbitrator, whose decisions will destroy, to a great extent, the work of the board. A clerk in the Commonwealth Service, when travelling from Melbourne to Canberra, receives an allowance of 4s. 8d. an hour in addition to his salary, between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. and between 5.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. He is paid extra for the time spent when eating his breakfast and dinner ! The Department of Markets might well be abolished; the Health Department is carrying out work that is already being done by various State departments; and the activities of the Federal Forestry Department clearly overlap those of the States. Australia is not wealthy enough to stand this needless duplication of public expenditure. When we take money away from production, un- employment must be increased. Where there is waste, progress is hindered. I admit that the heavy drop in the prices of our primary products has contributed to the present sorry condition of affairs in this country, but it is high time that governments determined to eliminate all waste and extravagance. Members of the Lang group have spoken about hardships inflicted upon old age pensioners, and they have heaped abuse on bondholders whom they choose to describe as Shylocks. I think that many honorable members have received letters from thrifty persons who have managed to save a couple of thousand pounds, but whose income will be reduced, under the Government's proposals, to an amount less than that received by- old-age pensioners. I know dozens of cases in which the owners of cottages - men who by the exercise of thrift saved enough to enable them to buy two or three small houses - are unable to obtain the rent due to them, and are now in a worse position than that of old-age pensioners. All honorable members must admire the action taken by the returned soldier organizations. They are to be complimented upon the proposal that they have submitted. It shows that they are prepared to make a sacrifice at this time of national emergency. While invalid and old-aged pensions are paid as' a gift to a deserving section of the community, the provision of pensions for ex-soldiers is a national obligation, and the reductions now being made should be deemed temporary only. I hope that the time is not far distant when we shall have an old-age pension scheme, with a complete scale of benefits, contributed to by the individual, the employer and the State, in equal amounts, so that the pensioner will be able to claim that he has earned his pension, and that it is not in the nature of a gift from the Crown. We have heard a great deal about equality of sacrifice. The Government contends that there must be this equality, and the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) and others have argued that it is essential. I want to know what steps have been taken by the Government to that end. There can be no equality of sacrifice while the Government gives concession after concession to one section, and continues to add imposts to another section. The Deputy Leader of the Country party (Mr. Paterson) quoted to-night figures which showed that the price levels of primary production are 119 per cent, in comparison with pre-war days, and that those of secondary production have increased to 193 per cent. "Where is the sacrifice that the manufacturer is making? It must he recognized that practically the whole of the wealth of Australia comes from the soil, and proportionally little from manufacturing industries. Those industries have always lived on what is produced from the land. If any industries should be placed in a secondary position, surely it is the manufacturing industries, and not the great primary producing industries, upon which such a stranglehold has been placed. It is something damnable- 3481 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin -Order ! 3481 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - That word is to be found in the Bible. 3481 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - It is unparliamentary. 3481 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Then I shall use the term " abominable." My only wish is to express the severest condemnation. Prior to this Government coming into power, there were complaints on every hand regarding the burdens that were being placed upon primary production. At that time the values of primary products were fairly high; whereas now it is per'fectly well known that they have dropped to an abnormally low level, and that is one of the principal causes of the trouble in which Australia finds herself to-day. Yet we continue to heap upon primary production the m6st monstrous charges, and to raise to an even higher level the cost of everything that is required by the primary producer. A new sugar agreement has been signed and is to continue in force for a number of years. If there is to be equality of sacrifice, let the nation derive some benefit from this industry by the imposition of an excise duty of £2 10s. a ton on all sugar consumed in Australia. If the householder is not to benefit by a reduction of price why should not the nation be able to obtain some revenue from the industry, and thus make it possible to pay a higher old-age pension than is proposed? [Quorum formed.] The Government ought to be able to obtain by this means something like £750,000 a year, and thus place itself in a position to fulfil at least some of the promises that it has continually made. 3481 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - The honorable member has always growled about the high price of sugar. 3481 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - It is stupid toallege that my proposal would have the effect of increasing the price of sugar to the consumer. The agreement; fixing the price, would still stand. It provides that the price of sugar and the cost of excise will come from the sugar board. There are other directions in which additional revenue may be obtained. Under the tariff proposals of the Government, the duty on imported cigarshas been increased, but the excise on locally-manufactured cigars has been reduced. Thus the Government has made an absolute present to the cigar manufacturers of £40,000 a year. Why should not the Government, instead of the manufacturers, have that money, which could he obtained by raising the excise a little higher instead of reducing it? It is most extraordinary that the Government can afford to make a present of £40,000 a year to cigar manufacturers, yet cannot fulfil any of the other promises that it made to the people, among which was the promise that the wheat-growers would receive 3s. a bushel for their wheat, under an act that passed both Houses of this Parliament. The Government has also placed an embargo on matches coming into this country. Then let us have an excise on matches. Other countries impose an excise duty on sugar consumed within their borders. In Belgium the excise is £2 6s. 8d. a ton; in Czechoslovakia it is £11 8s. 4d. a ton ; and the price of sugar to the consumer is only 4d. per lb. 3481 KMZ 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr Martens - They pay their workers 2s. a day. 3481 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The revenue derived from the duty is used for the development of their country. In France the excise is £6 18s. 4d. ; in Germany it is £5 5s.; in Holland, £18 18s. 4d.; in Hungary, £14 16s. 8d. ; in Italy, £43 16s. 8d.; and in Poland, £19 6s.8d. per ton. In such circumstances the nation, and not the concession hunter, as in the case of the cigar-manufacturer, receives the money. Why does not the Government impose an excise duty on matches, and allow the country to obtain some advantage? If the present high prices of some commodities are to continue, the Government should sell the monopolies and allow the country to obtain some benefit. 3482 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - Why did not the honorable member bring this proposal before the last Government? 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - On these matters I have never expressed opinions different from those which I am expressing tonight. A short time ago the Government passed a measure in which provision was made for the payment of a bounty on the production of gold; but although that measure has been in operation only a short time, the amount of the bounty is to be reduced by 50 per cent. 3482 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - It is madness. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - In the circumstances, I do not suppose the Government can adopt any other course. The money is not available for the purpose; but the proposal, when compared with other bounties, is unfair. 3482 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - Its benefit was just being realized. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The Government also proposed to pay a bounty on the production of sewing machine heads, but, fortunately, that measure was rejected in another place. Only yesterday I received a return showing the extent to which the States have benefited by the payment of bounties.From 1922-23 to 1930-31, New South Wales has received £2,314,890. That amount is made up by payments in respect of cattle, shale oil, iron and steel products, sulphur, canned fruits, wine, cotton, and yarn. During the same period Victoria received £456,008. This does not include grants in respect of fruit products, which cover about £334,371. Queensland received £556,438, and South Australia £1,266,893, the largest portion of which was on wine. During the same period Western Australia received only £45,373, and Tasmania £45,585. The total amount paid to all the States during that period was £4,685,187. Under the Wheat Advances Bill passed in December, the Government provided that the wheat-farmers would be paid 3s. a bushel f.o.b. 3482 KAQ 0 0 GIBBONS, George Mr Gibbons - Members of another place who belong to the honorable member's party blocked the passage of that measure. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The honorable member forCalare (Mr. Gibbons) should have a more intimate knowledge of the work transacted in this Parliament. The measure to which I have referred was passed by both branches of the legislature. Although the Wheat Marketing Bill was passed by this chamber and another place, the Minister for Markets (Mr. Parker Moloney), in writing to the Wheat-growers Union of Western Australia, said that the Senate prevented the farmers from receiving payment of 3s. a bushel f.o.b. 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon Norman Makin - The honorable member is out of order in making more than a general reference to a measure dealt with during the current session. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I am dealing move particularly with the subject of bounties. 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is in order in making a passing reference to a reduction in bounties; but he is not entitled to refer at length to a guaranteed price for wheat, which is not covered by this bill. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The promises made by this Government have not been honoured. 3482 JT7 0 0 MCNEILL, John Mr McNeill - The honorable member knows that it is not the Government's fault that the guaranteed price of 3s. a bushel has not been paid. 3482 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - I do not know anything of the sort. It was the Government's responsibility to ascertain whether the money to pay the guaranteed price would be available before it submitted the measure to Parliament. In the circumstances, a reduction in the bounties at present paid is justified; there should be something in the nature of equality of sacrifice. Under the tariff schedules tabled by this Government such an unnecessarily heavy burden has been placed upon the primary producers that it is impossible to reduce the cost of production. "We cannot live by taking in each other's -washing. As the prices of metals, wool, wheat and other commodities have dropped considerably, these products cannot be profitably handled until the cost of production is reduced. 3483 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Mr Keane - What does the honorable member want? 3483 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Sacrifices should be made by all sections of the community. When granting concessions to one section we have no right to impose burdens upon other sections. I wish to emphasize that, irrespective of the reductions proposed to be made in our internal interest bill and other controllable expenses, there is not the slightest chance of Australia making progress unless we remove the shackles that are hampering industry today. This country, which is capable of carrying a population of 20,000,000 people, can never become prosperous until those engaged in primary production are given an opportunity to carry on under more reasonable conditions than prevail to-day, and those conditions can never be realized without a drastic change in the country's policy. Debate (on motion by Mr. Riordan) adjourned. 3483 22:50:00 House adjourned at 10.50 p.m.