1933-03-08 13 1 4 REPS 3 0 COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA. PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. FirstSessionoftheThirteenthParliament. (Fourth Period.) House of Representatives. 1933-03-08 The House of Representatives on the 2nd December, 1932, adjourned until a day and hour to be fixed by Mr. Speaker, and notified by him to each honorable member. The House met pursuant to such notification. Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. H. Mackay) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 3 miscellaneous 3 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Honorable members will have learned with very deep regret of the death of the Honorable Josiah Thomas, which occurred in Sydney on the 5 th February, 1933. Entering the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales in 1894, he had a notable career in the State and Commonwealth Parliaments, extending over a total period of 35 years. He entered the Commonwealth Parliament in the year 1901, being elected to the House of Representatives as member for Barrier, a seat which he held until he retired on the expiration of the sixth Parliament. He was elected a senator for New South Wales at the general election of 1917, and after being defeated at' the general election of 1922, was again elected in 1925, his term expiring on the 30th June, 1929. Mr. Thomas attained ministerial rank early, being Postmaster-General in the first Fisher Ministry. In the second Fisher Ministry, he was Postmaster-General for approximately eighteen months and Minister for Ex ternal Affairs for the balance of its term of office. He enjoyed a reputation as an able administrator, and after he left the Federal Parliament he continued to take a keen interest in public affairs. The sympathy of this House is extended to his widow and sons in their bereavement. I move - That this House expresses its deep regret at the death of the Honorable Josiah Thomas, a former member of the Commonwealth Parliament, and Minister of the Crown, places on record its appreciation of his meritorious public service, and tenders its deep sympathy to his widow and family in their bereavement. 3 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN .- I second the motion. I met Mr. Thomas before 1910, and was associated with him in this Parliament when he was a member of the Fisher Government. He was a zealous Minister and an active member. Always genial, he made friends rapidly, and retained the respect and affection of all with whom he came in contact during his many years of parliamentary life. One by one the members of the first Federal Parliament are passing away. We regret their loss, but we know that their public service to Australia will be long remembered. 3 KXT Gippsland 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON .- The members of the Country party desire to be associated with the expressions of regret and sympathy which have fallen from the lips of the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin). 3 DQC North Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES .- I take this opportunity to express my deep regret at the death of my old friend and colleague, Mr. Josiah Thomas. It was my happy fortune to be associated with him throughout his parliamentary career. He and I entered the Parliament of New South Wales together, and both were elected as members of the first Federal Parliament. We remained firm friends and colleagues throughout the whole period of his public life. Subsequent to his retirement from the House of Representatives he was elected to the Senate, and there, as here, he enjoyed the friendship of all with whom he was associated. He was a good man, a loyal colleague, and a patriot in the best sense of the word. We all deeply lament his death. Question resolved in the affirmative, honorable members standing in their places. 4 miscellaneous Mr. LYONS (Wilmot- Prime Minister and Treasurer - by leave- [3.6.]. - With deep regret I rise to refer to the death of Sir Elliott Johnson, who passed away at Geelong, "Victoria, on the 8th December, 1932. The late honorable gentleman was a member of this chamber for many years, representing the division of Lang from 1903 to 1928. He was Speaker of this House from July, 1913, to the dissolution of the Parliament in 1914, and from June, 1917, until the 28th February, 1923, having been re-elected Speaker for a third term on the 27th February, 1920. In that year he was honoured by the King being created a Knight Commander of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George. Sir Elliot Johnson has not been a member of the Federal Parliament since I entered it, and, therefore, I have not been personally associated with him in the legislature. Nevertheless, I have full knowledge of his distinguished service as Speaker and of his great industry and wide knowledge of public affairs, which made him a valuable member of the Parliament. He will be remembered, too, for his keen interest in art; examples of his own talented brush were presented by him to the Commonwealth. Honorable members will, I am sure, join with me in extending deep sympathy to his daughter, Miss Flora Johnson. I move - That this House expresses its deep regret at the death of the Honorable Sir William Elliot Johnson, K.C.M.G., a former Speaker of the House of Representatives, places on record its appreciation of his notable public service, and tenders its deep sympathy to his daughter in her bereavement. 4 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN .- On behalf of the Opposition I second the motion. I recollect that when I first entered this Parliament many years ago Sir Elliot Johnson was a militant member of the Opposition ; and a doughty fighter he was. I learned at that time to respect his ability and tenacity of purpose, and later to esteem him personally for his many manly qualities. He had an artistic temperament and a kindly, lovable nature. At all times to meet him was a pleasure. I join with the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) in conveying to Miss Johnson the deep sympathy of honorable members. 4 KXT Gippsland 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON .- On behalf of the members of the Country party, I endorse the sentiments which have been expressed by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin). In the first two Parliaments of which I was privileged to be a member I learned to know Sir Elliot Johnson in both his official and private capacities, and developed for him a profound respect and esteem. The news of his death caused deep regret to all honorable members. 4 KFK Darling Downs 0 0 GROOM, Littleton Sir LITTLETON GROOM . - I, too, express my sincere regret at the passing of Sir Elliot Johnson. I was a member of this Parliament before he entered it, and was associated with him throughout his parliamentary career. He was a keen, capable and active member of this House, wonderfully industrious, always wellarmed in his arguments, and quick and ready in debate. The sincerity of his convictions and his honesty of purpose endeared him to those with whom he worked. When he was elevated to the Speaker's chair, he graced his office with his fine qualities. He occupied the chair at a time when party feeling ran high; but, during scenes of great excitement, he kept his head clear, fulfilling his duties conscientiously, impartially and fairly. When he came to leave the 'chair he carried with him the respect and admiration of those over whom he had presided. He had dignified his position by the manner in which he had done his work. As Chairman of the Library Committee, he gave invaluable service by developing the artistic side of our collections. He himself possessed high artistic taste, and he did not spare himself in the slightest degree in order to perfect the Library and to give effect to his wish that the art collection of the Library should be housed in a separate institution in this city. We regret his loss, too, because of his sterling qualities as a man. Those who were closely associated with him found him a most loyal friend. He carved out his own career, and many incidents of his early life were exceedingly picturesque. He came to this country from across the seas, and fought his way upwards, and it was by merit alone that he ultimately attained the high positions which he so well filled. To-day we deplore his death, not only because of the loss of a useful member and a dignified and just Speaker, but also because of the ending of our personal friendship with him. Although a strong party man, he never allowed party feeling to interfere with his personal friendship, or to lessen his estimation of others. We are rightly placing on record our appreciation of his services, and we join together in expressing our deep sympathy with his daughter in her bereavement Question resolved in the affirmative, honorable members standing in their places. Motion (by Mr. Lyons) - by leave - agreed to - That Mr. Speaker be requested to transmit to Mrs. Thomas and Miss Johnson a copy of the respective resolutions, together with a copy of the speeches delivered thereon. 5 miscellaneous 5 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - I desire formally to announce to the House that, on the 14th January, 1933, the Honorable Thomas Walter White, D.F.C., V.D., was appointed by His Excellency the Governor-General to be Minister for Trade and Customs, vice the Honorable Sir Henry Somer Gullett, K.GM.G., who has resigned that office on account of ill health. 5 bill Assent to the following bills reported : - Appropriation (No. 2) Bill 1932-33. Appropriation (Works and Buildings) (No. 2) Bill 1932-33. Beaches, Fishing Grounds and Sea Routes Protection Bill 1932. Bills of Exchange Bill 1932. Colonial Light Dues Appropriation Bill 1932. Colonial Light Dues Collection Bill 1932. Colonial Light Dues (Rates) Bill 1932. Committee of Public Accounts Bill 1932. Commonwealth Public Service Bill 1932. Financial Relief Bill 1932. Income Tax Assessment Bill 1932. Income Tax Bill 1932. Invalid and Old-age Pensions Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1932. Judiciary Bill 1932. Jury Exemption Bill 1932. Patents, Trade Marks and Designs Bill 1932. Sugar Agreement Bill 1932. War Service Homes Bill (No. 2) 1932. Wheat Bounty (Claims) Bill 1932. 5 miscellaneous 5 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - by leaveThe conversion loan recently floated in London was to cover a New South Wales 4 per cent, loan of £9,621,000, maturing in London on the 1st July next. The new loan was issued at 4 per cent, at par, and is redeemable in 1970, subject to the option of the Government to redeem it at any time after 1955 on three months' notice. The loan was underwritten in the usual manner. The subscriptions received amounted to £6,184,000, the underwriters being left with the balance, which represents 34 per cent, of the loan. The terms of this loan compare favorably with those of the conversion loan issued in London in October last to cover the New South Wales loan of £12,360,000. On that occasion a short term loan, with a currency of five years, was issued, the terms being 3$ per cent, at £97 10s., and the yield to the investor £4 ls. 2d. per cent. The loan which has just been issued is a long-term loan, with a currency of from 22 to 37 years, and the yield to the investor is 4 per cent. Long-term and short-term loans appeal to different classes of investors, and, in view of the large amount of the short term loan issued in October, it was necesssary on the present occasion to offer a loan of long currency. The terms of the new loan were fixed after close consultation with the underwriters and other financial authorities, and in the present market conditions in London, must be regarded as satisfactory. 6 Questions 6 Anomalies 6 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - Does the Government propose to take any action with reference to anomalies affecting invalid and old-age pensions? 6 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - From time to time a number of cases which were claimed to be anomalies in pensions have been brought under the notice of the Government. These are at present being considered, and, when they have been examined carefully, and a decision come to in regard to them, honorable members will be notified of the intention of the Government. 6 6 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - As the arrival in Sydney recently of the Matson liner Lurline completed the company's programme for the control of the Pacific to the detriment of Australian shipping and seamen, has the Government yet arrived at any decision as to how this problem shall be dealt with? 6 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I have at this stage nothing further to add to what has already been said on this matter. 6 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - The Prime Minister said that the Resident Minister in London was dealing with it. 6 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I repeat that the matter was discussed at Ottawa by the representatives of Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain, and an arrangement was made that the matter would be taken up again by those representatives in London. Circumstances have prevented its final consideration. 6 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - And we shall be killed in the process. 6 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I hope not. The Government will notify its decision to the House when it is in a position to do so. I assure honorable members that I am anxious to complete this matter, and as desirous to give information to them as they are to receive it. 6 6 KK7 0 0 JENNINGS, John Mr JENNINGS - With reference to the leasing of Cockatoo Island Dockyard, can the Minister state whether the previous staff of 400 employees, who possess a good record of service, will have continuity of employment under the new conditions? 6 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - In the main, yes. 6 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - About 400 men have been dismissed. 6 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - On the 1st March, 400 men were engaged at the dockyard, practically the same number as had been engaged there during the previous two years. On the following day that number was reduced to 300, but the next day it was again increased. From information received this afternoon, it appears that there are now 359 men employed, every one of whom was formerly employed at the dock. 6 6 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - Is the Minister for Health in a position to make a statement regarding the embargo recently imposed by the New Zealand Government on the importation of Australian fruit ? 6 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The New Zealand Government placed an embargo on the importation of Australian fruit and vegetables towards the end of last year. Negotiations are proceeding between the Governments of New Zealand and Australia regarding the visit to Australia of a Minister from New Zealand, or vice versa, with the object of clarifying the position, not only with regard to the embargo on fruit, but also in relation to reciprocal trade generally between the two dominions. 6 6 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - Earlier in the present session, I mentioned in this chamber, and later, with others, made representations to the Government regarding the great disparity between the prices of Danish and Australian butter in Great Britain. Can the Minister give the House, and those engaged in the dairying industry, any indication of the steps being taken by the Government in relation to this most important matter? 7 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - It is a fact that there is a wide and, to some of us, inexplicable, disparity between the prices obtained for Australian and Danish butter in England. It appears, however, that this is a matter between the sellers and the consumers of butter. Nothing that we can do will alter the position in any way. 7 7 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr DEIN - In view of the undertaking given by the Postmaster-General in this House last November that the exorbitant charges for telephone services would receive consideration, I now ask if such consideration has been given to the matter,- and, if so, with what result ? 7 KXQ UAP 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - I gave no promise in connexion with exorbitant charges by the telephone department, for the simple reason that our telephone charges are the lowest in the world, rot-withstanding that the service rendered is as efficient as in any other country. The costs of these services are being scrutinized carefully in connexion with the financial position generally, and as soon as it is possible to give some relief in that direction, it will be given. 7 7 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - Recently, a person in my electorate was refused an assessment on the valuation of his property made by the Valuer-General of New South Wales for taxation purposes. Instead, an arbitrary figure was fixed by the Federal Land Tax Department. Is it a fact that valuations made from time to time by the State Valuer-General can be ignored by the Federal Land Tax Department for assessment purposes? Further, can the Federal Land Tax Department fix its own valuations of land' for assessment purposes, irrespective of the valuation of the State ValuerGeneral? If so, will the Prime Minister confer with the various State Governments with a view to removing this harassing anomaly, either by preserving the status of the Valuer-General, or by abolishing arbitrary valuations by the Federal Land Tax Valuation Board, or vice versa? 7 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The answer to the first two portions of the honorable member's question is in .the affirmative; the Federal Land Tax Department may make its own valuations, regardless of any other valuation by a State or municipal authority. Representations have been made to the Government with the object of coordinating the work of these different valuing authorities, which are doing practically the same work, in order to avoid overlapping and duplication. These are now being considered. The Government is hopeful that it will be able to achieve something in the direction indicated. 7 7 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - Earlier in the session I asked a number of questions regarding the introduction of a housing loan scheme for Canberra. Can the Minister inform the House whether anything has been done in that connexion? 7 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - A couple of months ago a scheme which was formerly in operation in the Federal Capital, whereby persons desiring to build could borrow money through the banks, was restored; but, so far as I am aware, no one has availed himself of it. 7 7 JVZ 0 0 CAMERON, Malcolm Mr CAMERON - Can the Prime Minister inform the House what has been done in connexion with the proposal to appoint a royal commission to inquire into the ramifications of the motor spirit companies in Australia ? 7 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The matter is under the consideration of the Government, and I hope to be able to make a definite statement in regard to it within a few hours.. 7 7 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I ask honorable members to place on the notice-paper the remaining, questions which they desire to ask without notice. 7 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - We have been in recess for three months. 7 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - My reason for making this request is that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) has given notice of his intention to move the adjournment of the House. In addition, there are important matters which the Government wishes to deal with to-day. I am desirous that the time at the disposal of the Leader of the Opposition and other honorable members for the discussion of the important question which he proposes to raise shall not be limited, and I, therefore, suggest that honorable members either place their remaining questions on the notice-paper, or ask them without notice to-morrow. 8 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Is the Prime Minister entitled to refuse honorable members an opportunity to ask further questions, seeing that time is set apart for the submission of questions? Have not honorable members the right to continue to ask questions, regardless of the attitude of the Prime Minister, so that at least the public may know that honorable members are anxious to ventilate the many matters of public importance about which information is required ? 8 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The latter portion of the honorable member's remarks does not bear on the question of order. The control of the business of the House is in the hands of the Prime Minister, and he is within his rights in refusing, as he has done, to answer further questions. 8 miscellaneous Sino-Japanese Dispute: - Thirteenth Assembly 8 KZO Kooyong UAP Attorney-General 1 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM . - I lay on the table the. reports on the sessions of the Special Assembly of the League of Nations in March, April, July and December, 1932. These sessions were called to consider the Sino- Japanese dispute, but the July session also dealt with the admission of Turkey to the League of Nations. I also lay on the table the report of the Australian delegation to the Thirteenth Assembly of the League, and move - That the paper be printed. Motion (by Mr. Hughes) proposed - That the debate he now adjourned. 8 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Is this a motion which the House can discuss? 8 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - No debate can be permitted on the motion " That the debate be now adjourned." Question put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) 61 7 Majority . . . . 54 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion (by Mr. Latham) put - That the resumption of the debate be made an order of the day for the next sitting. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) 61 7 Majority . . . . 54 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. 9 Questions FormaL Motion For Adjournment 9 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have received from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) an intimation that he desires to move the adjournment of the House this afternoon for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, " The paramount necessity of taking immediate steps to provide finance for Commonwealth and State authorities, enabling them to absorb a large number of unemployed on useful public works and land development." Five honorable members having risen in support of the motion, Question proposed. 9 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN . - I offer no excuse for drawing the attention of Parliament to the vital and paramount subject of unemployment. I see no need at this stage to emphasize the urgent necessity for providing work for the unemployed, nor do I think it necessary, in the limited time at my disposal, to stress the suffering of the many thousands of our fellow Australians who have been for a very long period on sustenance. I believe that ail honorable members and every person in this community are only too well and painfully aware- of the serious position of our many thousands of unemployed citizens. Month after month and year after year the position has been becoming more desperate, and all this time, I am sorry to say, our people have been looking in vain for relief. The unemployment problem eclipses all others in its importance. The latest "available official figures show that there has been no improvement of the position in the last twelve months. The returns for the December quarter of 1932 show 28.1 per cent, of unemployment, as against 28 per cent, for the last quarter of the preceding year. We must be guided, not by the propaganda disseminated so freely by the Government and its supporters, but by those official figures which show that there has been no improvement. Most probably those figures do not include many thousands of boys and girls leaving school each year, who are seeking work, for they will not have registered with the unions, and therefore are not reported to the statistical department. This most serious problem places an obligation upon the Government. At the last elections the present Ministerial party secured large majorities in both Houses of Parliament by promising the people that if it were only returned to power it would reward the people for their confidence in it by providing employment. Now the Government should live up to its promises. This Government possesses greater power than any State government to finance proposed v undertakings. This Parliament has power to legislate on banking and currency, and to arm the Commonwealth Bank with authority to finance public works and land development. It should be asked to confer extended powers upon that bank so that it may create credits, and so make a substantial forward move towards providing employment. The Government should immediately introduce legislation to remove from the Commonwealth Bank the danger of having its activities limited at any time by the trading banks demanding payment of the cash reserves which they now have deposited with the Commonwealth Bank. If those cash reserve deposits were made statutory we should make a decided reform along the lines proposed in the Commonwealth Reserve Bank Bill that was introduced by the Labour Government which I had the honour to lead nearly two years ago. In 1931, a list of useful works, which included land development, was drawn up by the State governments, and submitted to the Premiers Conference. Various proposals were advanced to improve production in Australia when that became necessary, as it will when matters become more normal. The State governments and other public bodies were eager to go ahead with those activities if finance could be provided. Those works could be now undertaken with advantage. I contend that the Commonwealth Government could make finance available, even though it be on a limited scale. That would bc a contribution of a practical character towards the great problem of unemployment, and would ease the position somewhat. Obviously, it is more desirable to finance useful works than to finance sustenance payments, although the actual outlay might be greater. By providing unemployed men with work, not only is some value received for the money expended, but the manhood and morale of the workers are preserved. If we con; tinue to spend money on sustenance, our people will sustain such a loss of manhood and morale that many decades will have passed before they recover. Both when my party was in power, and since, its members have advanced suggestions to enable a start to be made towards overcoming the problem of unemployment not fraught with any danger of inflation or monetary crisis. It is estimated that the expenditure of £1,000,000 a month would employ 50,000 persons directly. In turn, their purchasing power would bring about the employment of thousands more. That would give a practical start to the re-employment of the workless. It is generally known that not only are the majority of our workless barely existing on the food they are able to afford, but they have very little clothing, and their homes are practically depleted of furniture, which has gone to the sales rooms to provide a little money to purchase the necessaries of life. If 50,000 of those persons were given some permanency of employment, at the basic wage or a little more, they would be enabled to replace some of that furniture which has been sacrificed to tide them over their dreadful position, as well as provide themselves with food and clothing. I do not wish my proposal to be met with the cheap sneer, " Oh, start the printing press going, and keep it working at high pressure." I have never advocated such procedure, and I do not do so now. From my study and from my experience while occupying the responsible position of Prime Minister, I know that more can be done to meet the situation than is being done by this Government. I also know that, unless more is done, serious consequences may ensue to the people and 'the nation generally. Recent speeches made by the Prime Minister seek to excuse the lack of activity by his Government, despite the fulsome promises made by himself and his colleagues little more than a year ago. The right honorable gentleman and some of his Ministers claim that what this Government has done compares favorably with what was done by its predecessor in office, and have quoted figures in a general way to try to .prove their contentions. Those figures will not bear examination. In the first year that my Government was in office, it provided for the direct expenditure on unemployment of £2,500,000, merely to ease the position while it was seeking more substantial means of grappling with the problem. In its second year of office it endeavoured to raise £12,000,000 to relieve unemployment, but was frustrated by the Senate. 10 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - And the people. 10 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - Principally by the propaganda of the right honorable gentleman. If the proposals then put forward were not acceptable to those who now sit on the Government bench, let them advance plans giving effect to their electioneering promises. In order to reduce unemployment in Australia, the Labour Government lost millions of pounds in revenue through lessening imports. The present Government has collected £3,500,000 more from customs revenue in eight months than was received in the corresponding eight months of the previous year, much of that increase being at the expense of our industries and our unemployed. Notwithstanding *he repeated assertion that those importations are for the purpose of capital expansion, the fact remains that almost £2,000,000 of that amount' was collected from duties on textiles. However, I shall not pursue that subject now; it will be dealt with during another debate. Because of its fiscal policy this Government is in a better position to provide funds than was its predecessor in office. Moreover, it came into power at a time when the budget had been balanced, whereas, when my Government assumed office, the financial edifice was crumbling about our ears. If this Government earnestly endeavoured to do what its predecessor in office sincerely strove to achieve, we should very shortly have thousands of homes much brighter than they are to-day. We laid the foundation of a balanced trade and a balanced budget", and upon it we attempted to build, with the object of restoring men to employment. Neither public nor private budgets can be permanently balanced until the unemployed problem has been solved. The declared policy of the present Government is to reduce taxation, and by that means assist employment in private enterprise. There is no guarantee, however, that any taxation thus remitted will be utilized in the relief of unemployment. No attempt has been made to show that that will be the result. Let me illustrate that point. The banking institutions, and the big city land-owners generally, will benefit very substantially during this financial year by the remissions of land tax that have or are to be made. Can it be said that they will employ that money directly in providing additional employment? I think that it cannot. Yet that money could be employed directly by the States or the Commonwealth, or by other public bodies, in the relief of unemployment throughout Australia. The unemployed problem must be attacked at once, and boldly. One has only to witness the dire straits to which so many of our fellow Australiana have been reduced to realize that delay in dealing with the matter would be extremely dangerous. The unemployed have displayed a wonderful and a commendable degree of patience. I suggest, however, that we should not try their patience too far. It has been suggested that, iu order to cope with certain economic difficulties in Australia, the producers should reduce their output of foodstuffs. What an indictment of governments, as well as of the people, such a proposal is, when so many thousands are hungry, and the sustenance provided does not furnish sufficient to maintain men, women, and children in bodily health ! It may keep them in existence, but it certainly does no more. The lack of any provision for the replacement of clothing and boots that have been worn out ought to make us hang our heads in shame. No comparison with what was done by another government, and no assertions in regard to the action taken by the people at the last election, furnishes an answer to criticism. Let. it be granted that the people emphatically rejected the proposals put forward1 by the last Labour Government. Theydid so at the request and the behest of the present Leader of the Government and in response to the propaganda of the press -which stood behind him. Instead of sneering at Labour's proposals, let the Government unbosom itself, and acquaint the country with the action that it intends to take to solve this very grave problem. I do not contend that the problem can be wholly solved; I know that there is a world-wide aspect of it; but a long way may be travelled towards its solution, and much may be done to alleviate the suffering that is now being endured. What the Government that I led did was to ease the position in our 'first year of office, and then to endeavour to grapple with the whole matter in a bolder and more general way. It is well over a year since the present Government raised high hopes that money would flow into industry, and work be provided. It is now incumbent upon it to show that a commencement has been made to achieve that purpose. I affirm that very little, if anything, has been or is being done in that direction. It is time that this Parliament stirred the Government intoactivity. Is the position to be allowed to drift as though nothing were happening? Three years ago the whole of the financial edifice of Australia was tumbling about our ears, and the Government of which I was the Leader had to grapple with the position. So far as the budget is concerned, the conditions are not so acute to-day as they were then. My Government had not complete control of this Parliament; the present Government has. Honorable members opposite said to the people, " Change the Government, and you will restore confidence. Money will flow into industry, and you will be able to secure employment." "Where has employment been provided? The official figures show that there has been no improvement of the position. I urge the Government to concentrate it3 energies upon, and to devote its efforts to, a solution of this problem. We are facing national disaster, with a third of our people out of employment. Over a million persons are on the brink of starvation. We ought to face this as we would any other national crisis. If it were a national crisis due to an attack by a foreign foe, we would mobilize, and organize all the forces of our country. In this national disaster, the enemy hunger is attacking the people, and we should organize all the forces of government, of finance, and of trade and commerce in an endeavour to drive it out. Instead of hunger and misery, there should be plenty for all. 12 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I support the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) in the motion that he has submitted to this House. It would be fitting to move the adjournment of the House every day until practical steps had been taken for the purpose of dealing with, this most important problem. The party that holds office to-day undertook that duty. They told the people that, if given the power to govern, they would provide employment for those who needed it. On that promise and that undertaking, ' they received the support of the country at the last election. 12 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - That is not a fair presentation of the Prime Minister's (Mr. Lyons) policy speech. 12 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - It is as fair a presentation as can be made of it. My friend who has interjected is not so unfortunately situated as are those who are un employed. It is to the latter that we should leave the decision as to whether my presentation of the case is fair or otherwise. "The people of this country were told that the plan known as the Premiers plan would solve all the problems with which Australia was confronted. Numerous conferences were held, until the stage was reached at which it was considered that the time was opportune to give practical effect to the proposals that had been advanced. But, as the Leader of the Opposition has shown, the figures relating to unemployment prove that the position has not improved in the slightest degree. Consequently, the Government must stand condemned in the eyes not only of those who are unemployed, but of the whole of the people of Australia, for having failed during the last twelve months to honour its obligations. Honorable members sitting on the Government side of the House will probably quote figures, and make statements concerning the relief work that has been provided, and in all likelihood reference will be made to the State of New South Wales. It will prove interesting to honorable members to examine the circumstances of those who are engaged on unemployed relief work in New South Wales to-day. It can be shown that these men are really worse off under the scheme at present in existence, than they were under the previous Government, in regard to the provision of food relief. 12 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - That is nonsense. 12 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - It may appear to be nonsense to the honorable member, whose situation is not similar to that of those who are unemployed. I invite him to place himself in the posit i'-n that is occupied by those men. Let him go into the high-pressure tunnels, in which men are working with muck up to their knees, and make an examination o'i the relief that is being provided under the scheme in operation in New South Wales to-day. Apart from sustenance, which is barely sufficient for the needs of those who are unemployed, no provision is made for clothing, blankets, or boots. We are now approaching the winter months, and the responsibility rests upon this Parliament to see that at least every man, woman, and child is properly clothed during that period. "We are entitled to ask the Government what it proposes to do in the direction of providing warm clothing where it is needed. Only during this week I was informed that in the Coast Hospital there are persons stricken with disease as a result of malnutrition, brought about by their inability to procure necessary sustenance. Let this be a warning to the Government. If it does not take steps to meet the position, the health of the community will be seriously affected. Even at this moment the Government could provide a greater measure of assistance out of revenue. Customs receipts have increased to a marked degree, and a government which was able to find £2,000,000 for the wheat farmers, and £250,000 for other primary producers, and to remit £700,000 in land tax, and £500,000 in income tax, a total sum of £3,450,000, should be able to do something to relieve the acute distress existing amongst the people, by providing warm clothing for them. We have to thank the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Casey) for the information that the Government proposes still further remissions of taxation. The honorable member is in the fortunate position of being able to forecast the Government's policy, and we have been assured on his authority that the Government proposes to make further concessions to those who supported it at the po! 1. Talk about spoils to the victors! This Government is carrying out that principle with a vengeance. It has been said that the remission of taxation will result in more employment being made available, but we know that the wealthy city land-owners who have benefited from recent taxation remissions have, instead of doing anything to help the people, actually approached the courts for the further reduction of wages and the increasing of working hours. The Government of New South Wales has sacked hundreds of railway employees I challenge the figures quoted in the House to-day regarding the employment now being given at the Cockatoo Island Dockyard. The Minister stated that 350 men of the original 400 had been reemployed., but I know that last week only 100 men were at work there, and that was the position until two days ago. It is a remarkable thing that certain information can be given to the House in answer to an inspired question, while we on this side of the chamber are not even permitted to ask questions. It may be that during this week some extra ship painters and others have been employed on a job which has recently come in; but it is unlikely that the work will last long. We assert that the Government should provide clothing and shelter during the coming winter for those in necessitous circumstances. The assistance which it is claimed has been forthcoming from the Defence Department has come to be regarded as a joke. Time after time we have made representations to charitable bodies which were supposed to be distributing clothing provided by the department, and have been told, either that no clothing was available, or that it was of such poor quality as to be practically of no use whatever. It has become increasingly evident during the last three years that the Government of this country is in the hands of certain people outside Parliament. Therefore, we direct our appeal at this time to those who are directing the policy of the nation, and ask them to do at least one humane act, by providing warm clothing during the winter months for those in dire need of it. 13 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - With the opening words of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin), I entirely agree. He stated that we should all be anxious to improve the lot of the unemployed. That is so. It is needless to stress the sufferings of the unemployed at the present time in order to justify any action for their relief. But the right honorable gentleman claimed that there had been no improvement in the position during the last twelve months. I think that honorable members who have travelled around the country, and observed conditions for themselves know not only that there is more employment, but that there has been an improvement in the general tone of the community throughout Australia. 13 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward 13 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - In what part of Australia ? 13 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - In the honorable member's own district. 14 10000 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - I should like the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) and the honora'ble member for East Sydney (Mr. "Ward) to know that they are not permitted to make observations -while another honorable member has possession of the floor. All interjections are disorderly. 14 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I cannot understand why any heat should be brought into the discussion of this matter. The position is too serious, and the sufferings of the unemployed are too real, to allow us to use it for party advantage. Conditions have certainly improved, and they have improved in Newcastle among other places. In order to emphasize this point, I shall quote an article published in the Sydney Morning Herald of the 15th February last, in which the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Stevens, i3 reported as follows: - Largely as a result of the measures adopted and of the co-operation of Federal and State Governments, and of the leaders of industry in a reconstructive policy, one-third of the factory employees who lost their jobs since the depression began have got them back again on a permanent basis in recent months. The returns show an increase of more than 13 per cent, in the number of factory employees since Tune, 1032. 14 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - Due to the Scullin Government's tariff policy. 14 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - That quotation answers the statement of the Leader of the Opposition that the Commonwealth Government is enjoying an increase in revenue at the expense of Australian industry. The newspaper quotation continues - In the metal trades (a key industry) the numbers employed have increased from 8,400 a year ago to 11,200 to-day, and there is less rationing. Last February 4,300 rationed employees were working 20 hours a week; at present only 1,000 are rationed, and they get 38 hours' work a week. In addition, the number of employees in leading retail shops has increased by 10 per cent., the increased wages bill being £0,000,000 per annum, and the receipts from the wages tax indicate an allround increase in employment. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) advised honorable members to press insistently until something was done by the Government to help to relieve unemployment; but if the honorable member's policy were adopted, unemployment would be vastly greater in Australia than it is to-day. During the last few weeks I had an opportunity of visiting the great industries of New South Wales, and what did I find? When the Lang Government was in office in New South Wales, 2,000 men were employed in the steel works near Newcastle; the. day I was there the number employed was just under 3,100. Therefore, the number employed had, in the interval, increased by over 1,000, and these men were drawing good wages. The honorable member for Hunter has asked me where this improvement in employment is taking place, and I am telling him that it is to be seen in his own district. As a result of the return to office of a Commonwealth Government in whom the controllers of industry have confidence, there is an improvement of 50 per cent, in the employment figures for the Newcastle Steel Works, as well as the other allied industries which I had an opportunity to inspect on my recent visit to that city. I may add that this improvement is also due in part to the fact that the leader of the movement to which the honorable member for West Sydney belongs was removed from the treasury bench in the New South Wales Parliament, and a government which the people can trust was returned to office 14 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - Surely the Prime Minister knows that the steel works are not in my district. 14 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I am not referring to the honorable member's immediate electoral district, but to the district of Newcastle, of which he is a representative in this chamber. Let me now direct attention to the improved position in Victoria. I am emphasizing the improvement in the numerically larger States, but what I am saying is true also of my own little State. The following statement appeared in the Melbourne Argus of the 2nd February, 1933: - State Ministers were greatly impressed by the decline in the number of persons receiving sustenance during the second half of last year as revealed in a comprehensive table presented to the Cabinet on Tuesday by the Minister in charge of the Sustenance Department (Mr. Kent Hughes). The table indicated that while on 2nd July the total number of persons registered for sustenance in Victoria was 47,098, on 31st December the number had declined to 30,944. Since December the decrease had continued. The average weekly costs of all sustenance payments in each of the following months were: - July, £29,809; August, £30,310; September, £27,025; October, £25,1)80; November, £25,480; December, £23,232. Lest honorable members think that this statement might have been coloured for political purposes, let me point out that Messrs. Edward Dyason and Company, in their monthly commercial statement dealing with commodity prices, trade balances, unemployment, &c, show that in June, 1932, the number of persons registered at the Labour Bureau in Victoria, as unemployed, was 44,'7l2, and on the 15 th February of this year it was 27,473. That this improvement is general in the State of Victoria is evident from the statement of the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Casey) to whom reference has been made this afternoon. He informs us that the relative position as regards sustenance and unemployment is exactly the same in the city of Geelong as it is throughout Victoria. 15 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - Would it not be fairer if the Prime Minister compared the unemployment figures for June of 1931 with June of 1932, instead of with February, 1932? 15 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I have not the slightest objection to doing that. In June, 1931, the number registered at the Labour Bureau in Victoria for employment was 39,000, and in June of last year the figure was 44,712. 15 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - That shows a big increase in unemployment. 15 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Apparently the honorable member and his friends are delighted that there was an increase in June of last year. But let me give the figures in greater detail. In June, 1931, the number registered for employment was, as I have stated, 39,000; in September, it Was 41,000; in December, 37,000; in March, 40,000 ; in June, 44,000 ; in July, 43,000; in August, 39,000; in September, 34,000; in October, 31,000; in November, 27,000 ; in December, 27,000 ; in January, 28,000, and in February, the number was back to 27,473. The improvement in Victoria is typical of the improvement throughout Australia. The right honorable the Leader of the Opposition claims that, in its first twelve months of office, his Government provided £2,500,000 for the relief of unemployment. The facts are that the money made available from trust funds for road work to provide employment in 1929 waa £1,000,000. In 1930-31 the sum of £1,000,000 was provided in the budget, but subsequently £750,000 was taken out of the fund and given to South Australia. 15 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - For the relief of unemployment. 15 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - No; it was given as financial assistance to South Australia, thus leaving only £250,000 to be provided by the Commonwealth for unemployment in that year. 15 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - That is not so; I was at the conference which decided the matter. The right honorable gentleman was not. 15 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - But I was in this House, and I know that the amount mentioned was given to the State of South Australia in the form of financial assistance. The remaining provision made by the Scullin Government during its two years of office included £500,000 in December, 1930, to be divided among the States; £100,000 for the repatriation of surplus coal-miners in the northern district of New South Wales, £40,000 for relief in the Federal Capital Territory and the Northern Territory, and £300,000 in 1931-32 for federal works. This made a total of £2,190,000 in two years. This Government in one year has made available £1,972,000 for the relief of unemployment. Let me emphasize, also, that at meetings of the Loan Councils and Conferences of Premiers, this Government co-operates with all State Governments in proposals to relieve unemployment and the arrangements to be made for the raising of the necessary money. During the last financial year the gross expenditure of the Commonwealth and the States in this direction was £10,700,000. The amount approved for this financial year is £20,700,000, nearly twice the total provided by the Commonwealth and the States in the previous year. The right honorable the Leader of the Opposition has told the House that his Government submitted proposals for the expenditure of £12,000,000 for the relief of unemployment, but that it was unsuccessful because of the attitude of the Senate. Compared with the amount spent during the first year of the Scullin Government's term of office, this Government and the States are, this year, making provision for nearly twice the amount mentioned by the right honorable gentleman. In this matter we must be guided by the States, which decide what amount can be spent profitably for the relief of unemployment, and there is a limit to the amount which they can spend: The Commonwealth has practically no field for the expenditure of substantial sums in this way. We might spend a certain amount on post offices and in the territories under our control, but we have not the same opportunities as the States for expenditure on reproductive public works. I am afraid that, so far as the Commonwealth grants are concerned, some portion of the money, at all events, has been spent on works that are not reproductive. If we continue to borrow for the purpose of carrying out public works we shall add to the burdens of the taxpayer, and that will make worse the position of industry, and increase unemployment. The policy of the Government is to adhere to principles of sound finance, so that those who control industry may have confidence in governments and in national financial policy. If the taxation which burdens industries can be gradually reduced, they will be able to expand and employ more people. Already our policy has reduced the interest burden of the Commonwealth and the States, and has made possible a reduction of the interest burden on industry, which is thus encouraged to provide more employment. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) asked whether the remission of land taxation has increased employment? From the true story of the wool industry, related recently by an expert committee, it is clear that if some relief had not been given to that industry more people would have been added to the ranks of the unemployed. That is true of the wheat-growing industry also. The object, and indeed the proved effect of the Government's policy, is to enable industry to launch out, and thus to provide jobs for those who are out of work. I have pointed out on many occasions that it is impossible for governments to absorb all those who are unemployed. The only possibility of permanently and profitably employing our people is by re-absorbing them in the industries in which they were previously engaged. A continuance of heavy government borrowing would deplete the money market, increase interest rates, and make it impossible for new industries to commence or existing industries to expand. In addition, the swelling of the public debt would make additional taxation inevitable. In co-operation with the Governments of the States the Commonwealth Government has done its best to afford immediate relief to the workers. To-day the States have funds sufficient to enable them to carry out all the public works which they have submitted to the Commonwealth Government for approval. 16 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - Up to a limit. 16 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - There must be a limit. The State Governments made an honest effort to expend the grant for winter relief within the prescribed period, but there is a limit to what can be done in the organization and carrying out of profitable reproductive works within a given time. As a result of the conferences of Australian Governments, representing all the parties that constitute this Parliament, programmes were formulated and financial provision was made for all works that could be profitably undertaken during the financial year. I repeat that the amount approved this year for public works and unemployment relief was £20,700,000 as compared with £10,700,000 for the previous year. I appreciate the concern of the Leader of the Opposition for the unemployed - a concern that is shared by all of us - but the right honorable gentleman must admit that the Commonwealth Government can do little more to grant immediate relief on sound lines. The Government in conjunction with the Governments of the States has done everything possible to ameliorate distress, and it is now incumbent on this Parliament to shape such a course that confidence will be restored in the minds of those who are controlling industries. It is impracticable for governments alone to absorb the unemployed; our only hope is to increase the absorptive capacity of private enterprise. 16 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! The right honorable gentleman's time has expired. 17 JPV Darling 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY .- The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) sought to bolster up his defence by quoting various authorities. He brought to his aid the testimony of the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Stevens, Sir Stanley Argyle, and other Victorian Ministers, and a private firm of economists, who are selling their opinions to whatever government will buy them, but he refrained from submitting the information compiled by his own officer - the Commonwealth Statistician. For his own convenience he used as the basis of his comparison the figures for the year ending the 30th June last. That comparison is quite misleading. The true test is a comparison of the figures for December, 1931, with those; for December, 1932. During the general election campaign the " All for Australia " party asked the electors to return them so that confidence might be restored in the minds of business people and the controllers of industry, increased avenues of employment opened, and real money provided. That party was placed in power, and during the last twelve months it has tinkered and faltered, and absolutely failed to attack the problem of unemployment. There is no more real money in circulation to-day than there was during the Scullin Government's regime. Prosperity is still just around the corner, and the Prime Minister still talking futures by referring to that uncertain period, "when confidence has been established." It is only too clear that, in twelve months of Nationalist rule, confidence has not been established.' For the last quarter of 1931, 28 per cent, of our people were unemployed. By December, 1932, that figure had increased to 28.1 per cent. Those figures are the true test to apply to this " prosperity-confidence " government. They show clearly that unemployment has slightly increased, and that indicates a decrease rather than an increase of confidence. The Prime Minister, in endeavouring to minimize the Scullin Government's provision for the Unemployed, stated that £750,000 was given to South Australia, not for the relief of the workless, but to support the finances of that State. He must know that, if that grant had not been made, the amount expended on un employment in South Australia would have been less by £750,000. The right honorable gentleman professes to believe that the right way to establish confidence and reduce unemployment is to make gifts from the Treasury to the wealthy sections of the community. remissions of land tax may establish confidence in the minds of the wealthy landlords in the cities ; but commerce,, agriculture and pastoralism have not been helped in any way. It is idle for the> Prime Minister to pretend that this remission of land tax was a relief to the primary producer, and will Facilitate the return of prosperity and the increase of employment. The majority of the taxpayers who benefited by the remission were of the type of the Horderns, the newspaper proprietors, and the shipping companies. Even although one-third of the land tax is paid by the man on the land, who amongst the rural producers will get advantage from the recent remission ? Not the men with 4,000 or 5,000 acres, but only the big men with land of an unimproved value of £100,000 or more. These are the " men on the land " to whom the Government has given bountiful presents worth up to £1,000. While the horror of unemployment is overwhelming civilization, the Commonwealth Government prates of establishing confidence, and tinkers with the problem. Daily the position is becoming worse. Onefifth of Australia's population is on the bread-line. About 1,500,000 of our men, women and children have not enough to eat, and are inadequately clothed. Many of our people are being slowly starved to death, and their resistance to disease is being reduced. Yet the Government does nothing but talk of restoring prosperity. The unemployed, who have waited vainly for three long years for an opportunity to earn the wherewithal to feed, clothe and shelter themselves, their wives and their children, have been very patient; but I cannot conceive that they can maintain that attitude much longer. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) has mentioned the measures which his Government proposed, but which were rejected by the Senate. The present Government, with a majority in both chambers, has the power to alter the statutes governing the Commonwealth Bank. The rising tide of unemployment can be stemmed only if the people control finance. Any system which allows private enterprise for its own profit to manipulate the flow of the financial life-blood of the community cannot endure. The proposals of the Scullin Government were designed to stabilize finance and increase price levels. What that Government was prevented from doing the present Government has the power to do. Credits can be made available for the relief of the community only through a governmental instrumentality; no help can be expected from private institutions conducted wholly for the profit of their shareholders. 18 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. 18 KZO Kooyong UAP Attorney-General 1 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM . - The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) has raised a subject the importance of which every honorable member recognizes, and he addressed himself to it in a speech the general moderation of which' honorable members must also recognize. He conceded that it was not possible, by mere governmental action, to deal with the whole problem of unemployment. He referred in a rather guarded manner to the subject which the last speaker (Mr. Blakeley) referred to more particularly - the control of hanking and currency vested in this Parliament - as indicating a possible means, and indeed the proper means, of dealing with the position. If the Government introduced what the last speaker referred to as the control of finance by the people, the insecurity and instability which must develop in a community when there is a reasonable fear of political control of banking and currency would add gravely to the unemployment problem. Since that fear has diminished or passed away, there has been a very real improvement in our position. When it is suggested that the unemployed problem should be dealt with by spending money upon land development works or on relief to the unemployed, we must surely ask where the money is to come from, and how much has already been provided. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) has shown that this year some £18,000,000 is being spent for this purpose, and all honorable members who have followed the recent financial history of Australia will know that when the Loan Conference met early this year the States had not been able to spend the proportionate amount of money allocated to them. There are, I suggest, only two legitimate sources of money, and one illegitimate source. The legitimate sources are loan and revenue, and the illegitimate source is the extension of bank credit or the inflation of currency. 18 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr Baker - That is the policy which has been adopted by the United States of America. 18 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - That country does not, to-day, present a very cheering picture. That, I think, is recognized by all honorable members. The first legitimate source of income is a loan. I doubt whether any responsible individual would recommend that loan moneys should be spent on unemployment relief or sustenance. That would be quite impossible financially, and would lead the community into a worse state. Loan moneys may be properly spent on reproductive works. We have had many so-called reproductive works undertaken in Australia, and I think that the people have now realized that a considerable portion of the burden which they bear is due to the expenditure on SO-called reproductive works authorized by some governments in the past. A work is not reproductive from a financial point of view unless it will provide for working expenses, interest, and sinking fund payments. Many works which are now proceeding, were believed by the governments responsible for inaugurating them to be works of this description, but the fundamental principle, in relation to any loan moneys, is that' neither governments nor individuals should, as a general rule, borrow money until they consider that they will be able to repay it. That is the ultimate criterion, and loans for sustenance and relief payments - to which I do not think the Leader of the Opposition was referring - could not be justified at all. 18 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I did not suggest that they could. 18 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - The expenditure of loan moneys must therefore be confined to reproductive works, and is being conducted by the States much better than it could be by the Commonwealth. The other legitimate source of income is revenue, and as everybody knows, more revenue means more taxation, and at this stage of the national economy of Australia, we can safely say that more taxation will mean less employment. Then there is the possibility of using the control of banking and currency, which this Parliament has, for the purpose of making money available in order to meet the difficult circumstances of this country. This is the illegitimate source of money. Everybody admits that the circumstances are difficult at the present time. We have debated the subjects of extension of bank credit and of issuing more money again and again on the floor of this House, and I can only repeat what I have often said, and what recent experience has shown, that to interfere with banking in the manner that has been suggested would be to follow a path of the gravest danger, and the ultimate result would be to aggravate the difficulties seriously. Speaking generally, the world position has, unfortunately, become worse, and recent events must have made all honorable members apprehensive as to what the immediate future may contain, and the more distant future bring forth. No one can at present gauge the result of the crisis in the United States of America, world-wide as it is bound to be in its later effects. In these circumstances, and they have become more serious in the last few days, it is gratifying to be able to point to Australia as probably the only country in the world in which a definite improvement appears in some directions. I am not saying that prosperity is round the corner. I do not as a rule deal in those rather cheap phrases; I prefer to submit facts from which reasonable conclusions may be drawn. Therefore, I do not say that the cloud of depression has lifted or that the roseate dawn will soon appear, nor refer to silver linings or the sun rising in the east. But I shall make one or two references to the actual position of Australia to-day. Let us consider the significance of the facts to which the Prime Minister .briefly referred. In the last seven months of 1932, from May to December, the proceeds of the wages tax which is used for unemployment relief in New South Wales, exceeded by £315,000 the proceeds of the same- tax for the corresponding months of 1931. That improvement took place despite a fall in the basic wage, which would ordinarily decrease the sum collected. The collection of an additional £315,000 means - the rate of tax being ls. in the £1 - that over £6,000,000 more had been paid in wage3. That is a definite and indisputable improvement. It was objected that the figures used compare June with December, or different periods. The Leader of the Opposition referred to some figures which the Prime Minister actually used - figures in respect of the metal trades. I shall compare the first quarters of 1931, 1932 and 1933, the figures relating only to the metal trades themselves and not to associated employments. The number of persons employed by members of the Metal Trades Employers Association in New South Wales was in the first quarter of 1931, 8,75C; in the first quarter of 1932, 8,436; and in the first quarter of 1933, 11,200. Honorable members, I am sure, will be plea.ed to have that evidence of real improvement in employment. 19 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The right honorable member's time has expired. 19 KX7 East Sydney 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD .- I arn pleased to have this opportunity afforded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) to draw attention to the critical position of the unemployed of this country, but I shall not be so optimistic as he was in suggesting that the Government is likely to adopt any suggestions put forward by the Opposition, nor am I prepared to say that the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition himself would be a cure for unemployment. In view of the actions of the Government, it is vitally necessary that every occasion should bc availed of by members on this side of the House to disclose to the people of this country the fact that this Government' has no regard at all for the unemployed, and is absolutely callous in its attitude towards them. Let me analyse the figures quoted by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) and the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham). It is said that figures cannot lie, but I contend that liars can figure, and I think that on this occasion my contention can be applied to those who quoted the figures. 20 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must not reflect upon the veracity of other honorable members. 20 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The Prime Minister quoted from a speech of the Premier of New South Wales in an endeavour to show that the position of New South Wales in respect of employment had improved. Every one knows that the Premier of New South Wales, during the election campaign, and since, made many statements. As. a matter of fact, he has been referred to as " the saintly Premier ". But I do not think that any reasonable person would rely upon his statements, because we find, upon analysing them, that many of them are not in keeping with facts. The Prime Minister to-day said that there had been an improvement in New South Wales because of the reduction in rationing. Rationing was dispensed with in the railway and tramway services, but instead of more employment being given, we find that 1,200 men, many of whom have had up to twelve years' service, are to be dismissed from that service. Yet some honorable members say that there has been a return to prosperity in New South Wales. It is easy to quote figures obtained from the food relief depots. Tn New South Wales to-day many deserving persons have been refused relief at the food relief depots at the instigation of the State Government. The Prime Minister cannot appreciate the extent of the want and poverty existing in the community merely by visiting the Millions Club and the Chamber of Manufactures. Although I am not anxious to be seen in his company, I am prepared to make that sacrifice on behalf of the unemployed, and if he will accompany me, I can take him to places where he will be able to see real suffering, and obtain a true knowledge of the effects of unemployment. Those who oppose the granting of assistance to the unemployed say that only reproductive works should be undertaken. Like the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham) claims to be sympathetic towards the unemployed. Yet the right honorable gentleman says that if we cannot construct reproductive works, the money cannot be found, and, consequently, the unemployed cannot be assisted. The Government has given no indication of what it considers should be done for the unemployed. While it is looking round for reproductive works which may be undertaken, the party to which I belong desires that some real assistance shall be given to those in our midst who are in desperate straits. The Government says that it has done everything possible for the unemployed. Parliament has been in recess for three months, during which period I have not seen in the press any statement that Cabinet has given consideration to the alleviation of unemployment, although I have heard that it adjourned in order that its members might see one of the test cricket matches. I am not prepared to accept at its face value the statement of the Government that it has done everything possible for the unemployed. The Attorney-General speaks dispassionately regarding unemployment; he deals with the subject as a business man, claiming, no doubt, that he is a member of a business man's government. The right honorable gentleman, who claims that money should not be spent on other than reproductive works, recently had a little jaunt overseas at the expense of the taxpayers of this country. In reply to questions which I asked I have been informed that the individual expenses of the* Attorney-General on his overseas trip amounted to £1,671. 20 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Does the honorable member propose to connect his remarks with the subject before the Chair? 20 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I was dealing with the Attorney-General's statement that any money made available for the relief of unemployment must come from eather loan or revenue, and endeavouring to show that some of the country's revenue has been used for purposes other than those which would assist the community generally. What was the result of the Disarmament Conference which the right honorable gentleman left Australia to attend? Can that conference be classified as a reproductive work? One result of the Disarmament Conference is that the present Government, instead of disarming, is said to be making provision to increase the defence force of this country. In view of the lack of results from the Disarmament Con- ference, it can justly be said that the individual expenses of the right honorable gentleman in connexion with his pleasure jaunt overseas cost the country £1,671, without conferring any benefit upon it. The Prime Minister has said that if the present Government were not in office, and a Labour government had control, its policy would result in further unemployment. In my opinion, work is important only when it is performed in order to produce things that are necessary. When a country has ample supplies of the things required by the people, the need for work is not so great. What is desired is that every person in this country should have an opportunity to obtain the necessaries of life. A Labour government, faithful to the policy of the Labour party, would see that no person in the community was hungry or in want in a land of plenty. 21 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - Like the Lang Government did. 21 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - Yes. Notwithstanding the opposition of the moneyed class, the Lang Government in New South Wales was able to provide a larger measure of relief for the unemployed than has its successor. In support of his statement that conditions had improved in New South Wales, the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham) said that there had been an increase of £315,000 in the amount collected in unemployment relief taxes. That increase is easy to explain; it is simply that, previously, dishonest employers were withholding money and defrauding the Government. The present Government in New South Wales, has the support of the " money hags ", who see that every penny is paid as it becomes due. Instead of the additional amount referred to by the Attorney-General being an indication of improved conditions in New South Wales, it is merely evidence that the employers are now paying the tax into the Treasury in order to assist the present Government of that State. It is only natural that the Minister who is interested in the omnibus services of that State should protest when anything is said against its honest and saintly Government, since he knows chat a " crook " deal, in which he is interested, has just been put through by it. 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 21 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) said that a " crook " deal, in which I am interested, has just taken place in New South Wales. The remark is offensive to me, and I ask for its withdrawal, and for an apology. 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -If the honorable member for East Sydney made the offensive remark referred to, he must withdraw it and express his regret. 21 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - To what remark do you refer, Mr. Speaker? 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -The Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) complains that the honorable member for East Sydney alleged that he had been concerned in a " crook " deal with another Government. 21 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - I withdraw the word "crook" and substitute "questionable"? 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's withdrawal must be without qualification. 21 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - I withdraw the remark. 21 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - I ask for an apology. 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Minister for Commerce feels the remark so keenly that he asks not only for its withdrawal, but also for an apology. I therefore call upon the honorable member for East Sydney to express his regret for having made the objectionable statement complained of. Mr. Ward not replying, 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If the honorable member will not comply with the call of the Chair, I shall have to name him. Mr. Ward continuing silent, 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I name the honorable member for East Sydney for not obeying the direction of the Chair. Motion (by Mr. Lyons) proposed - That the honorable member for East Sydney be suspended from the service of the House. The House divided. The tellers appointed for the "Noes" declining to act, 0 0 AYES NOES 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I declare the question resolved in the affirmative. In division: 21 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - You, Mr. Speaker, are exercising your authority in protecting other members of this House. I suggest that in this matter you should show some impartiality. 21 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If the honorable member has any complaint to make, it will be attended to at the proper time. 22 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein) made a remark to me which I consider insulting, and I ask that he bc called upon to withdraw it and apologize. Later 22 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - While the division bells were ringing, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) complained that the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein) had made a remark to him which he considered offensive. I did not hear the remark myself - it was spoken in an undertone - but if the honorable member for Lang did transgress the Standing Orders, as is suggested, I ask him to withdraw the remark and express his regret for having made it. 22 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - I withdraw the remark, and express my regret. The honorable member for East Sydney then withdrew. 22 KHO Martin 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN .- The House is indebted to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) for having brought before it at an early stage of the present series of sittings the matter to which he called attention. But I regret, as do other honorable members, the course which the debate has pursued, and the regrettable scene which we have just witnessed. In the few remarks I have to make I shall endeavour to emulate the example set by the right honorable member. I was struck by the absence of any definite scheme from the speeches of the mover of the motion and of those who supported him. Apparently, we are 'to extend credit, either by interfering with the currency, or by other means. We are to get money, and do something with it; but what we are to do with it has not been made clear. 22 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I referred to a- list of useful works which was drawn up in 1931, and is still awaiting attention. 22 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - I take it that those works are either now under construction or are in the list of those to be constructed out of the £1S,000,000 loan raised recently. 22 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - They are not. 22 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - I put it to the right honorable gentleman, as a financial leader and a statesman, that it is apparent that the population of Australia has not increased during the last ten years to the extent that was anticipated, and that, in consequence, we have outbuilt what would otherwise have been a justifiable programme of public works. Some honorable members say, and others less informed than they repeat the statement, that the country has sustained heavy losses through building railways and other public works which were not justified. Those works were, in most cases, justified on the assumption that the material progress of Australia would be as rapid in the ten or fifteen years immediately following their construction as in the previous ten or fifteen years. Unfortunately, our population has increased more slowly than was expected, and, moreover, the increase has been confined chiefly to the large cities. Many public works which were constructed only after the fullest investigation, and on the assurances of the immediately adjacent population that they would lead to development and prosperity, have therefore proved disappointing. In New South Wales it is now generally recognized that there is neither the population nor the production to justify further heavy expenditure on public works, and that ir districts where railways have been built, unless there is some indication that the population will be largely increased in the near future, we should not embark on other similar undertakings. If the list to' which the right honorable gentleman refers were gone through item by item, it would be found that a large number of perfectly justifiable works must be postponed for perhaps a quarter of a century before the situation will have so improved as to justify further expenditure. A firm might establish profitably half a dozen branch stores; but it would not follow that 60 branch stores serving the same population would increase its profit tenfold. On the contrary, that might bring about its ruin. The principles which apply to the activities of private firms operate similarly in connexion with expenditure on public works. The right honorable member for Yarra did not himself fall into the vulgar error of suggesting that money should be obtained, somehow, with the indefinable credit of the public, and used directly to provide relief; but, so far as I could follow the opinions expressed by two other honorable members on the opposite side,. one of them at least - I refer to the honorable member of whose presence and counsel we have just been deprived - created the impression in my mind that money, when obtained, should be expended directly on relief. He added that he did not care whether or not work was provided by the finding of the money - that that was necessary only when commodities had to he produced, and that there was a store of commodities which, under an enlightened government led by a statesman of the type to which he owned allegiance, could be divided up in a proper way among the unemployed. I ask honorable members whether they dispute the statement that there is a genuine, though regrettably small, improvement in the industrial position of Australia to-day. I am not one of those who think that the problem of dealing with unemployment has been solved, and I do not entirely support the proposition that nothing more can be done to alleviate the evil, even though that contention might to a limited extent have the support of the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) himself. I believe there is more that a government can do, not by providing direct relief - such expenditure does not lead to any improvement - but by the judicious outlay of limited sums of money for the encouragement of new primary production. I have in mind, particularly, the improvement of the production of fruit and fish. Of both those commodities larger exports might be made, and the prosperity of the country thereby enhanced. 23 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - That suggestion was made in the submission of this motion. 23 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - I agree with that proposal, and I am grateful to the honorable member who brought it forward. It is a statesmanlike idea, and this is not a time to find fault with practical proposals. I am glad that I am speaking in advance of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway), because, as a rule, I so thoroughly agree with him that he leaves me little to say. This is an opportunity for an honorable member to make what humble contribution he can to the solution of a pressing national problem. I submit to honorable members opposite that the industrial position shows a definite improvement. There is still a vast body of unemployed; of this I have had proof in my own constituency, and in my own personal circle in the last two or three months. I do not represent the fashionable areas of the City of Sydney; I have a vast working-class population in my electorate. But the situation is improving by the operation of the forces to which we may legitimately look for some improvement. Those have at last been set in motion. The large body of the unemployed of Sydney, as of Melbourne and other large cities, is not composed of those who have been discharged from government employment. It comprises chiefly men who have been discharged from private enterprise, and we must depend for their re-absorption in industry upon the businesses that employed them three years ago. That is slowly going on, but it is definitely proceeding. Honorable members opposite are reduced to sorry straits, indeed, when they assert that the unemployment tax imposed in New South Wales under the Lang Government was fraudulently withheld while that administration was in power, and that the returns were now being fraudulently swelled, so that the returns under the Lang Administration might be contrasted unfavourably with those now being received. The suggestion of a gigantic conspiracy between the employing classes in Sydney and the present Government of New South Wales is absurd. 23 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - The tax is paid by the employees. 23 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - Of course it is. If the employees had engaged in such a " conspiracy " they might, perhaps, have held back the tax; but is that the kind of vigilance we have attributed in the past to Mr. Lang? If the receipts from this tax have increased by £315,000, there must have been a corresponding increase of wages amounting to over £6,000,000. 23 KHL Melbourne Ports 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY . - I support the appeal that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) has made to the Government to find work for the unemployed. I may say in reply to the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Holman) that I do not consider that the position in regard to unemployment has improved. We have to be guided by the figures furnished by the Commonwealth Statistician, which are supposed to be as reliable as those published in any part of the world. 24 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - The honorable member knows the material on .which the Statistician bases his figures. 24 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - It is the same material as that which has been used during the last decade. It is certainly not worse, and probably it is slightly better. Whatever faults there may be in regard to the figures that I intend to quote, they would apply equally to the statistics relating to the good times that we have experienced in the past. The figures issued by the Commonwealth Statistician are the only ones that I am prepared to accept. Why should we be asked to take those supplied by private groups, who may be actuated by selfish interests? The Commonwealth Statistician never paints the industrial picture so black as it could be made if it were possible to ascertain the actual unemployment position throughout Australia. I was once engaged in the office that is responsible for the compilation of the cost of living statistics. The figures used are those supplied by the trade union organizations, who are asked to send in returns of the number of unemployed. Sworn declarations are now made as to the correctness of the figures, though many years elapsed before the organizations could be induced to do that. The figures relate merely to the percentage of unemployed organized workers in Australia; but everybody knows that there is a large body of unorganized men in this country who usually obtain less work than those who are organized. The figures indicate merely the number of totally unemployed, but of course there is a great number of partially employed persons who never register as totally unemployed. It is amatter of common knowledge that more men and women are now employed part time than when Australia was enjoying prosperity. Therefore, as I have already indicated, the picture presented by the figures of the Commonwealth Statistician is not so black as the actual position would be. In New South Wales the percentage of unemployment in December last snowed an increase, just as it did for the December prior to that. Fifteen months ago the position in that State was the same as it was three months ago. If we take the unemployment situation of the Commonwealth as a whole, we find that we are no better, but probably a little worse off than a year ago. The amount of unemployment in the metal trades was as great last December as it was during the last quarter of the previous year. We have had two or three years' experience in trying to improve the general economic situation in Australia by imposing retrenchment upon the workers, and by economizing in every direction; yet we have gradually, but surely, made matters worse every quarter. The living standards of the people have gradually gone down, and this retrograde movement will continue so long as the present policy is pursued. It is obvious to those who watch the results of the reduction of wages because of slight falls in the cost of living that the moment the basic wage is reduced the cost of living figures are further depressed, because of the operation of an inexorable economic law. Statesmen the world over, and all governments, have repeatedly asserted that what is required is a restoration of price levels. Every big business man agrees that that is what is most needed; but Australia is the last country to move in this matter. Throughout the world in the last three or four months courageous efforts have been made by governments to check the fall of prices. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), and certainly the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham) ever since he has occupied his present position, have repeatedly said " The Government cannot help to employ people; that must be left to private enterprise." The Resident Minister in London has also stated several times that the Commonwealth Government, like all governments, must not, and cannot, employ labour. But what is the duty of a government? Surely it is to improve the general comfort and happiness of the people. That is what it represents the people for. In times of crisis, when private enterprise is absolute^ insolvent - and private employers are going insolvent in large numbers every month - governments should lend a hand in providing employment for the people. Surely Ministers do not deny the prevalence of private insolvency. I take it also that this Government does not deny that our unemployment figures are, in some cases, as unsatisfactory, and in other cases, more unsatisfactory than they were twelve months ago. I have quoted the figures for the December quarter, because they are the latest avail.able. Not only are insolvencies increasing in Australia, but crime is also increasing. The Chief Secretaries of all the States could substantiate this statement. General Blarney, the Chief Commissioner of Police in Victoria, in replying to a statement that I made to the effect that crime was increasing said that the fact that the figures were increasing was not evidence of neglect on the part of members of his force, because the increase was in the same ratio as the increase in unemployment. We therefore must face the fact that unemployment is increasing, insolvencies are increasing, and crime is increasing. I admit, of course, that there are certain professional criminals who live by pitting their wits against the law. I am not speaking of that class of crime, but of petty crime. This class of crime is increasing by leaps and bounds, and it always increases when unemployment increases. 25 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -The honorable member's time has expired. 25 KWC Calare 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY .- The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) has directed the attention of the Government to the most pressing and difficult problem of unemployment, and the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) is probably correct in his statement that the official returns show that there has been very little improvement in the position throughout Australia within the last few months. Although it must be agreed that unemployment is less acute in certain directions than it was twelve or eighteen months ago, and that things are not nearly so desperate in some of the States as they were, I do not think that any Commonwealth or State Minister, or any government, can honestly express satisfaction with the existing situation. We must recognize that unemployment is still severe. We are approaching the winter months., when the hardships due to unemployment will be accentuated. Undoubtedly it costs people less to live and clothe themselves in the summer than in the winter. In the winter new clothing and more and better food are needed if people are to avoid suffering. The real problem that we have to face is the provision of some form of remunerative and reproductive work for the people. It is futile for any member of any political party to think that a government can, by a stroke of the pen, provide relief work of a satisfactory character. The present situation reminds mo that while I was a member of a former New South Wales Government a committee, which included capable representatives of every section of the community, presented a report to the Government on unemployment which contained eighteen recommendations, but, unfortunately, every recommendation began with the words " The Government should." The responsibility of doing everything was thrown upon the Government. The committee recommended that the Government should do this, that, and the other thing, and every one of its recommendation? involved the expense of a large sum of money which the Government would have had to find in order to give effect to the recommendations. Unfortunately, although the Leader of the Opposition has truthfully stated the difficulty, he has not submitted any proposals for providing reproductive and useful occupation for the unemployed. 25 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - I invited other honorable members to submit other proposals if they did not consider mine satisfactory. 25 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - At no time since I have been a member of this House have I directed unfair criticism at any other member of it. When I have not been able to offer constructive criticism of the various proposals that have been under consideration I have remained silent. I have never ridiculed or belittled the proposals of other honorable members. On this occasion I have a definite proposition to submit. In the first place it is essential that the Commonwealth and State Governments shall co-operate in dealing with the unemployment problem. No government can work effectively on its own. There is one undertaking which can be put in hand in Australia to-day that would employ probably a greater number of men than any other, and that would involve the use of material 100 per cent. Australian. This material, in the final analysis, represents practically only wages costs, for all the raw material is of Australian origin. The work that I refer to is the unification of the railway gauges of Australia. This work could he economically undertaken with tremendous advantage to the whole community. Itmay be said that the undertaking would cost a lot of money. That is quite true; but, in my opinion, the Government would be justified in borrowing money to carry out the work, because it would enable tremendous savings to be effected. If this work were put in hand as a relief work, thousands of our unemployed could be absorbed, and there would be created the spending power which the Leader of the Opposition desires to see created. In this undertaking practically all material would be of Australian origin. The sleepers, . the steel rails, the bolts, the bricks, the concrete, and practically everything else needed would be 'produced locally, and the production of it would also provide employment for men who are now out of work. Because the raw materials would be of Australian origin, 1 contend that practically the whole of the money spent on this undertaking would go in wages. Whether men were required to hew stone or timber, or to put the finishing touches to other products, they would be using local material. I emphasize that our present railway system is similar to that which existed in the United States of America years ago, and in that country they had to spend large sums of money to unify their railway gauges. We waste much valuable time and large sums of money in transporting passengers, mails, stock, and merchandise over our different railway gauges. This is uneconomic, and at a time like this should be rendered unnecessary. If the Commonwealth and State Governments would co-operate in the work of unifying our gauges they would confer a lasting benefit upon every section of the community. This work would not only be reproductive, but it would reduce unemployment over the next two or three years. It would be much more desirable for us to put this enterprise in hand than to waste our money in temporary public works which would not be reproductive. The unification of our railway gauges would occupy two or three years, but the work would be of lasting benefit to the Commonwealth. A fact which very few people realize is that almost one-third of the population of the world - and what applies to the population of the world applies equally to the population of Australia - is engaged directly or indirectly in some form cf transport. The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) will agree with me that the bulk of our coal-mining population is dependent upon transport for a living. The miners hew coal that is used for generating electric and other forms of power, which is part and parcel of ourtransport system. The men engaged in the manufacture of rails in our steel works are also vitally interested in the transport problem. So also are those engaged in the manufacture of locomotives and other machinery. Unfortunately, there has been a great curtailment of transport in the last two or three years. No one can deny that the transportation of passengers, goods, and stock has greatly diminished. This has unquestionably meant the dismissal of a large number of men who were formerly engaged in the transport industry. I have gone to a good deal of pains to analyse the figures in relation to transportation, and I am firmly convinced that a great deal of our present difficulty is due -o problems associated with the transport industries. To-day, millions of tons of shipping are lying idle all over the world, because international trade has been strangled. Unfortunately, Australia's policy of building up high tariff barriers has contributed to the strangling of international trade. This has meant that thousands of men usually employed on our waterfront have lost their employment. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) will agree that the bulk of the unemployment in his electorate is among men who have lost their jobs on the waterfront because both international and interstate shipping have been thrown idle owing to the lack of trade. 26 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 26 JWE Corio 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY .- The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) and the honorable members who sit behind him have shown clearly that they regard the figures published by the Commonwealth Statistician in relation to unemployment as accurate, and a true reflex of the unemployment situation throughout the Commonwealth. They say nothing, of course, about the basis upon which the figures are compiled. They do not tell us thai they are compiled from returns furnished by certain unions only, or that a number of unions do not keep any close check on the figures from which they .supply their information to the Commonwealth Statistician. I cannot believe that the figures produced by the Commonwealth Statistician with such trouble and travail are worth very much as an accurate reflex of the unemployment position in Australia. 27 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - But surely the honorable member will agree that at least they are accurate as a basis of comparison, taking year by year and quarter by quarter. 27 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I doubt even that. Obviously, it is to the interests of union officials to make the unemployment position appear as bad as possible. 27 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - On sworn declaration? 27 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - One may well ask why this method of compiling statistical information iu relation to unemployment has not been queried before; but it must be remembered that until the last three or four years our unemployment figures have not greatly concerned the people of this country. It did not matter very much whether the percentage was 5 or 6 or 4-J. For this reason, no one quarrelled with the figures or interested himself very much in them. But in recent years, they have become really important. If the right honorable gentleman has done nothing else in introducing this discussion he has made evident, the very great need for reform in the method of compiling these figures. It is «t r; ugo that the honorable gentlemen who have accepted these figures as providing a sound basis for this afternoon's debate should have been at some' pains to ignore an interjection by my friend, the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath), who asked if they would accept the cost of living figures as being just as sacrosanct as the unemployment figures. The answer obviously is that they do not. 27 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - They are accepted as the basis for the fixation of wages. 27 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I ask honorable gentlemen opposite -how they would co-relate the sustenance figures with the unemployment figures produced by the unions? In New South Wales the figures for last year indicate a drop of the order of from 60,000 to 40,000 in the number of those drawing sustenance; and in Victoria, as has been stated, the decrease was from about 40,000 to about 27,000. In Geelong, in my own electorate, the number of those drawing sustenance fell from about 1,300 at the time of the last general election, to, approximately, 650 twelve months later. There has since been a slight seasonal increase, making the number about 800 at the present time. I suggest that there has been improvement in much the same degree throughout the Commonwealth generally, and I know that to be the case in at least two other Victorian constituencies. 27 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - There has been a shifting of men from sustenance to relief work. 27 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I have been through the figures with the sustenance officer in Geelong, and I am aware that there is a turnover of about 100 per cent, per annum in the number of those who are drawing sustenance, that is, on the average, no one man draws sustenance for more than six months in the year. However, that fact has no immediate bearing upon the subject, other than as evidence that the declared number of unemployed are not 100 per cent, unemployed at. any one time. To obtain a correct perspective of the position in an electorate, one must interview the sustenance officers, and the secretaries of the unions predominating in that electorate. The strongest industrial organization in Geelong is the Geelong branch of the Textile Workers Union, and it is pleasant to note that not one member of that union is unemployed at the present time, though, previously, very many of its members were without employment. The Leader of the Opposition suggested that if £1,000,000 a month were provided - from some unspecified source - the expenditure of that money would enable 50,000 additional men to be employed. At the prevailing rate of wages, the expenditure would represent a labour cost of about 65 per cent., a figure that has not, to my knowledge been equalled anywhere in the world. Certainly nothing approaching that percentage has obtained previously in Australia, and I doubt whether it could be achieved. I suggest that nothing approaching 50,000 men could be employed for an expenditure of £12,000,000 a year. Coming to the matter of reproductive work, there is great difficulty in discovering at the present time, works the return from which would add to the national income; indeed, such works are practically non-existent. The best that we can do is to carry out works which will add to or improve our capital equipment. Debate interrupted under Standing Order 257b. 28 papers The following papers were presented : - Air Force Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 16. Appropriation (Unemployment Relief Works ) Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 146. Audit Act - Transfers of amounts approved by the Governor-General in Council - Financial year 1931-32 - Dated 30th November, 1932. Australian Soldiers' Repatriation Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 137. Beaches, Fishing Grounds and Sea Routes Protection Act - Regulations- Statutory Rules 1933, Nos. 7, 8. British Phosphate Commission - Report and Accounts for year ended 30th June, 1932 (12th year). Census and Statistics Act - Census Regula tions - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 142. Commonwealth Bank Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, Nos. 139, 140. Commonwealth Employees' Compensation Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 143. Customs Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 21. Customs Act and Commerce (Trade Descriptions) Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 22. Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 147. Statutory Rules 1933, Nos. 1, 9, 18, 24, 25. Dried Fruits Export Charges Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 20. Export Guarantee Act - Return showing assistance granted to 31st . December, 1932. Financial Emergency Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 19. Financial Relief Act- Regulations amended, &c. - Statutory Rules 1933, Nos. 11, 27. Gold Bounty Act - Return for year 1932. High. Court Procedure Act and Judiciary Act - Rules of Court - Statutory Rules, 1932, No. 145. Inscribed Stock Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 135. Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act - Regulations amended- Statutory Rules 1933, No. 4. Judiciary Act - Rules of Court - Dated 1st December, 1932. Dated 19th January, 1933. Jury Exemption Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 136. Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired at Mascot, New South Wales - For Defence purposes. Nationality Act - Return for 1932. Naval Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, Nos. 5,6. Norfolk Island Act - Ordinances of 1932 - No. 7 - Motor Car. No. 8 - Census. Northern Territory Acceptance Act and Northern Territory (Administration) Act - Public Service Ordinance - Regulations amended. Papua Act - Infirm and Destitute Natives Account - Statement of Transactions of Trustees, 1931-32. Ordinance of 1932 - No. 8 - Maintenance Orders (Facilities for Enforcement). Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, Nos. 13. 14, 15. Quarantine Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 138. Sales Tax Assessment Acts (Nos. 1 to 9) - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, No. 144. Seat of Government Acceptance Act and Seat of Government (Administration) Act - Ordinances of 1932 - No. 22 - Matrimonial Causes. No. 23- Sheriff. No. 24 - Coroners. No. 25 - Juries. No. 26- Juries (No. 2). Ordinances of 1933 - No. 1 - Nurses Registration. No. 2 - Hospital Tax. Court of Petty Sessions Ordinance - Rules amended. Juries Ordinance - Juries Fees Regulations. Public Baths Ordinance - Regulations amended. Public Health Ordinance - Sale of Food and Drugs (No. 2) - Regulations amended. Transport Workers Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 12. Treaty of Peace (Germany) Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 3. War Service Homes Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1932, Nos. 134. 141. Wire and Wire Netting Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933, No. 26. 29 miscellaneous Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 1) : Special Customs Duty (No. 5) : Excise Tariff Amendment (No. 3) In Committee of Ways and Means: 29 KZR Balaclava UAP Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE . - I move- Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 1) That the Schedule to the Customs Tariff Proposals introduced into the House of Representatives on the tirteenth da; of October, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-two, be amended as hereunder set out, and that on and after the ninth day of March. One thousand nine hundred and thirty-three. at nine o'clock in the forenoon, reckoned according to standard time in the Territory for the Seat of Government, Duties of Customs be collected in pursuance of the said Customs Tariff Proposals as so amended. That, excepting by mutual agreement or until after six months' notice has been given to the Government of the Dominion of New Zealand, nothing in this Resolution shall affect any goods the produce or manufacture of the Dominion of New Zealand entering the Commonwealth of Australia from the Dominion of New Zealand. Special Customs Duty (No. 6) That on and after the ninth day of March, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-three, at nine o'clock in the forenoon, reckoned according to standard time in the Territory for the Seat of Government, in addition to the Duties of Customs collected in accordance with the Customs Tariff for the time being in force or in accordance with Customs Tariff proposals, there be imposed in lieu of the Special Duty imposed by the Customs Tariff (Special Duty) Proposals introduced into the House of Representatives on the thirteenth day of October, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-two, a special duty of Customs at the rate of fifty per centum of the amount of duty otherwise payable (not including Primage Duties) on such of the goods included in the items specified in the first column of the Schedule hereto as are specified in the second column of that Schedule which were exported from the country of export after the third day of April, One thousand nine hundred and thirty, and which are entered for home consumption on and after the said ninth day of March, One thousand nine hundred and thirty- three. That in this Resolution " Customs Tariff proposals " shall mean Customs Tariff Proposals (not being proposals relating to Special Duty or Primage Duties) introduced into the House of Representatives on or after the thirteenth day of October, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-two, and shall include any amendment of such proposals. That, excepting by mutual agreement or until after six months' notice has been given to the Government of the Dominion of New Zealand, nothing in this resolution shall affect any goods the produce or manufacture of the Dominion of New Zealand entering the Commonwealth of Australia from the Dominion of New Zealand. Excise Tariff Amendment (No. 3) That the Schedule to the Excise Tariff 1921-1928 as proposed to be amended by Excise Tariff Proposals be further amended as hereunder set out, and that on and after the ninth day of March, Onn thousand nine hundred and thirty-three, at nine o'clock in the forenoon, reckoned according to standard time in the Territory for the Seat of Government, Duties of Excise be collected in pursuance of the Excise Tariff as so amended. That in this Resolution " Excise' Tariff Proposals " means the Excise Tariff Proposals introduced into the House of Representatives on the following dates, namely : - 25th February, 1932 ; and 24th May, 1932. The amending customs tariff resolution which I have just introduced covers some 75 items and sub-items. There are eight lines of goods upon which increased duties operate. Two of these increases relate to revenue items, two are increases arising out of reduced duties given effect to in September last on the Tariff Board's recommendation in respect of which the board subsequently recommended increased duties; and three are straightout protective increases which have been recommended by the board. The remaining line is an increase in the ad valorem rate only, but, as it is accompanied by a substantial reduction in the fixed rate,- it can scarcely be regarded as an increased duty. There are 51 reductions, for which adequate reasons are advanced in each case by the Tariff Board. The most important relate to oilmen's stores, wool felt and fur felt hoods and hats, hoods other than of felt, socks and stockings, wireless " sets and parts, rabbit traps, and vessels exceeding 500 but not exceeding 1,000 tons gross register. The only excise amendment is an increase imposed on cigarette papers of id. per 60 papers. The special duty resolution now frees thirteen important groups of goods from the 50 per cent, surcharge.. It will be remembered that these surcharges and certain prohibitions were introduced by the last Government as a necessary financial measure. The changes now effected leave only eight items still subject to the 50 per cent, impost. The Government regrets that it was unable to lift all of the special duties, but the items on which they now remain concern goods which have important revenue significance. Two of the increased duties should be specially mentioned. These are the increases imposed on negative and soft positive cinematograph film, and on rubber. With regard to the former, it has recently hecome the practice to import a negative or soft positive copy only, and to print the whole of the Australian requirements from this. Previously five or six positive copies of a film were imported, but, with the increase in the rate of duty from 2£d. to 4d. per foot on foreign films there began the importation of only one negative copy of each film, and revenue returns progressively contracted as this practice grew. It is estimated that, as a consequence, revenue from this source has diminished by at least two-thirds, quite apart from the depression factor. An increase of 8d. per foot is proposed on this class of film. The proposal also has the merit that it makes the British preference granted under the item an effective one. Under the suggested duties there also exists a large margin for the protection of the local film printing industry. The other increase relates to the imposition of the 4d. per lb. duty on Papuan rubber. At present this rubber is free of ordinary customs duty, and this subjects local rubber manufacturers to serious administrative difficulties. So gravely were these difficulties regarded by the rubber companies that they intimated that they would have to cease purchasing Papuan rubber. The matter was exhaustively investigated by the Government, and it was decided to impose a duty of 4d. per lb on Papuan rubber in order to remove the manufacturers' difficulties, and obviate the necessity of stationing a customs officer on a firm's premises to see how much Papuan and how much foreign rubber went into manufacture, in order to determine the drawbacks when exporting. The amount collected in duty will be returned to the Papuan administration as a grant in aid. Relatively, the Papuan growers will be better off than formerly ; the rubber manufacturers' complaints are largely met, and there will be no loss of revenue or additional expenditure so far as the Government is concerned. It will be noted. that there is a group of 367 items covering machines, machine tools and appliances which were previously admissible under a customs bylaw. These goods were admitted free, British preferential tariff, and 15 per cent., general tariff, at the Minister's discretion, but by cancellation of the by-law, which might have been done at any time, they could be made dutiable at 45 per cent. British preferential tariff and 65 per cent, general tariff. These machines are not manufactured in Australia, and it is not necessary or desirable to maintain the duties. Potential manufacturers of such goods who may desire the imposition of protective duties are now placed in the same position as manufacturers of other classes of goods; they must go before the Tariff Board and prove their case for increased duties. It is often not fully appreciated to what extent both primary and secondary industries are assisted in bringing down production costs through by-law entry; primary industries by the admittance of necessary plant for country factories and other articles used in the country, and secondary industries by the cheaper entry of raw materials and essential machinery for manufacturers. The schedule that I have just tabled gives effect to - the Government's tariff policy, which was fully explained by the Prime Minister at the last elections, and endorsed by the people. It may be summarized as - a selective tariff, where efficient industry is an essential qualification to tariff shelter; a competitive as distinct from a prohibitive tariff; the measure of protection to be guided by the recommendation of a skilled Tariff Board, and not by arbitrary ministerial action. This accords also with the Ottawa agreement, whereby the first responsibility of each government is recognized to be to care for the industries, whether primary or secondary, upon which its population depends, while at the same time assisting the commercial solidarity of the Empire. Irrespective of Ottawa, however, this trend in tariff adjustment was inevitable and essential to bring to a reasonable level the prohibitive rates of many items on which the Tariff Board had not had opportunities to report as it is provided ' that they should do under section 15 of the Tariff Board Act. While the results may be unsatisfactory to sincere freetraders or stern prohibitionists, the aim is to attain a fair balance between primary and secondary industries, and in conjunction with the comprehensive schedule already before the House to bring the greatest measure of development, employment, and general prosperity to Australia. Progress reported. 55 miscellaneous The Minister for Trade and Customs laid on the table reports and recommendations of the Tariff Board on the following subjects: - Apparel, Cement-making machines, n.e.i., &c, Cotton piece goods resembling woollen piece goods, Machines and machinery, n.e.i. Sulphite of soda, Towels, &c Ordered to be printed. 55 miscellaneous 55 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I understand that the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) has a lengthy speech to deliver when the sitting of the Committee of Ways and Means is resumed, so it may meet the convenience of honorable members if the sitting be now suspended until 8 p.m. 55 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - I wish to take the opportunity to refer to the attitude of the Prime Minister earlier in the day. 55 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - There is no question before the Chair. If honorable members object to the proposed suspension of the sitting, it is for them to make their objection known; but there can be no debate. In the circumstances, I call upon the Clerk to read the next order of the day. 55 miscellaneous In Committee of Ways and Means: Consideration resumed from the 13th October, 1932, on motion by Sir Henry Gullett(vide page 1167, Vol. 135) - That on and after the fourteenth day of October, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-two, at nine o'clock in the forenoon, reckoned according to standard time in the Territory for the Seat of Government, Duties of Customs at the rates respectively specified in the column of the schedule hereto headed " British Preferential Tariff" be imposed on goods the produce or manufacture of the United Kingdom . . . And on motion by Mr. White (vide page 29) - That the Schedule to the Customs Tariff Proposals introduced into the House of Representativeson the thirteenth day of October, One thousand nine hundred and thirty-two, be amended as hereunder set out . . . 55 KZR Balaclava UAP Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE . - On the 13th October last, this consolidated schedule, covering the tariff amendments of the Scullin Government and the six tariff proposals introduced by the present Government, was tabled in this committee. This schedule is the first complete and comprehensive schedule introduced into Parliament since 1920. Covering, as it does, every tariff item, and affecting all phases of our commercial life, I regret that my predecessor, the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett), who is better acquainted with its intricacies and more informed upon every detail relating to Ottawa - where he and the right honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Bruce) acquitted themselves so well - is not here to implement its details. I trust that his health, which has suffered so severely in the rigour of his public duty, may soon sufficiently improve, as I hope and believe that it will, to enable him to resume his place in this House. For convenience in debate, this schedule of 438 major items, or 1,733 minor items, has been grouped into eight sections, which, while allowing the full discussion of every item, will enable honorable members more readily to appreciate the action that has been taken in respect of each group, and it is hoped will also prevent the debate from becoming interminable. These groups are as follow: - Items under which the rates are the same as those operating under the 1921-1930 tariff; Items which have been amended in accordance with the Ottawa Agreement, but not otherwise amended ; Items which were passed by the House of Representatives during 1932; Revenue items not included under any other heading; Items amended by the Scullin Government and supported by Tariff Board recommendations; Items amended by the present Government and supported by Tariff Board recommendations ; Items amended by the Scullin Government which are not supported by Tariff Board recommendations ; Items not included in other groups. The co-operation of the leaders of all parties in the House has been sought for the acceptance of this simplification, and it is hoped that, with the adoption of that procedure, the debate may be considerably curtailed. The Ottawa Agreement was intended to have a profound influence on both the volume and the direction of future trade in the British Empire, and should stimulate a healthy reaction in all industries. Meeting in a natural atmosphere of goodwill and helpfulness, the underlying desire was to Understand the problems of each section of the Empire. Personal contact enabled problems to be explained and comprehended with a goodwill not otherwise attainable. The final result, it is sincerely hoped, will be beneficial to each and every unit of the Empire, which with its diversity of production and immense and varied resources, can, by the example of such economic cooperation, set a much-needed lead to the world. The primary industries of Australia, upon which our general prosperity depends, will benefit in every section. Substantial preferences have been granted on the following: - Wheat and wheat flour. Barley Macaroni Sugar Butter and cheese. Milk powder. Condensed milk. Sugar of milk. Casein Canned meat. Dressed poultry. Meat extracts. Sausage casings. Apples, pears, oranges and grapes. Canned fruits. Dried fruits. Dried peas. Honey Eggs Leather Tallow Wattle bark. Asbestos Copper Zinc Lead A very valuable quota restriction on supplies of meat was also agreed to.With the exception of wool, of which the Empire produces a surplus, practically every commodity that we export is benefited under the agreement. It should be more generally realized than it is, that Great Britain buys 90 per cent. of our butter exports, 97 per cent. of pork, 96 per cent. of lamb, 88 per cent. of mutton, 38 per cent. of bacon and hams, 55 per cent. of canned meats, 79 per cent. of fresh fruit, 95 per cent. of wine, and 63 per cent. of dried fruits exports. Without her goodwill, and if precluded from the grant of preferences in that market, Australia could not pay for essential imports and meet her overseas commitments. It is the one and only great market that is able to absorb most of our exports of primary products, and if for any reason we lost Great Britain as a buyer, our position would be parlous indeed. One important fact which many critics of Ottawa ignore, is that 96.2 per cent. of our exports are represented by primary products. The products of secondary industries represent only 3.8 per cent, of our exports. Of a total secondary industries production of £113,000,000 in 1930-31 only £3.500,000 was exported. These figures should be remembered by those who demand prohibitory tariffs for secondary industries, and resent reasonable competition in the Australian market. They show in the clearest possible manner that the market for the manufacturing industries is at present mainly a domestic one, and that a return to profit-making levels and increased employment therein is inseparable from the prosperity of the rural industries. Sitting suspended from 6.1V to 8 p.m. 57 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - The Ottawa agreement offers the one great opportunity for an increasing and improved market in the United Kingdom for our primary products. In the midst of economic desolation it is the only hope for our primary producer. . Any hand that is raised against it renders a disservice to our primary producers, to our manufacturers, and to Australia. The defeat of any item which implements the agreement would necessarily be regarded in the gravest light by the Government. The Government's attitude is that its pledge and contractual obligations, which have been adopted by this Parliament, and which are given to the United Kingdom and the Colonial Empire, will be completely and sincerely fulfilled. The leader of the Australian delegation at Ottawa, the right honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Bruce), declared at the opening of that momentous conference that the Ottawa meeting was the consummation of the work of Joseph Chamberlain and Alfred Deakin - which it undoubtedly is; for without going into the history and details of preferential trade within the Empire which was so exhaustively dealt with by my predecessor, it will be recolected that, after 1907, when the dominions wooed but failed to win Britain from her traditional freetrade policy, Australia introduced a" preferential tariff, as a result of which British manufacturers benefited to the extent of from £3,000,000 to £10,000,000 worth of trade annually, which' might otherwise have gone to foreigners. Australia, with a population of only 6,500,000, thus became Britain's best customer, with the single exception of India, with its population of 300,000,000. Now, by force of economic circumstances turned protectionist, Britain is reciprocating by according Australia preference on the foodstuffs she purchases. Australia's record of preferences was so good that her capacity for granting new benefits was relatively limited. The undertakings given in articles 9 to 12 provide that - Protection by tariff shall be afforded only to those industries reasonably assured of success. That there shall be full opportunity of reasonable competition on the basis of the relative cost of economical and efficient production. That the tariff will be reviewed in this light. That no protective duty shall be imposed against United Kingdom goods in excess of the recommendation of the Tariff Board. These undertakings were willingly given as an earnest of our intention to review the protective portion of our tariff, and particularly those parts which have never been made the subject of Tariff Board inquiry. Especially does the undertaking relate to those sections of the tariff which were increased on ministerial initiative, without com1"pliance with the requirements of the Tariff Board Act. These articles, which are much the same in the agreements between the United Kingdom and Canada and the United Kingdom and New Zealand, are frequently misrepresented and misunderstood; yet they are thoroughly consistent with the Government's policy declared at the last elections wherein the Prime Minister said - Turning to secondary industries, and the controversial subject of the tariff, let me say at once that the majority of the members of the party which I lead have taken strong exception to the tariff schedules introduced into the last Parliament. This attitude has inspired propaganda by the extreme section of protectionists directed to prove that the Opposition is a party which stands for a policy of low protection that would not safeguard sound Australian manufacturing from excessive overseas competition, or uphold Australian standards of living. I, therefore, desire to make quite clear the real tariff policy and intentions of the United Australia Party. The policy of protection is still maintained by the Opposition. The Nationalists and the Country party stood firmly behind the Massy Greene and Pratten tariffs. A substantial majority of the Opposition object to the tariff-making of the Scullin Government on two main grounds. They object to the wholesale raising of duties by arbitrary ministerial action and without reference to the Tariff Board, and to the subsequent brushing aside of Tariff Board recommendations. Further, they object to tariff-making of a prohibitive kind which they deem surely calculated to breed monopolies. They did not object to the special emergency tariff prohibitions and surcharge duties for the adjustment of the balance of trade, although they did ask that a time limit should be placed upon them. We believe, too, that such emergency measures should be subject to ratification by Parliament within a reasonable time. As to the future, the United Australia Party would not, even where it has any disagreement with particular tariff items, engage in sudden, drastic changes upon ministerial initiative, and without investigation by the Tarff Board. We believe that tariff changes of such a character may easily prove bad for industry and business generally, and consequently for employment. Where the tariff has been raised to what may be considered excessive levels without reference to the Tariff Board, we would submit cases for hearing as soon as practicable, and we would in broad principle' abide by the recommendation of the board. We do not believe it possible to remove tariff-making from Parliament, but wc strongly favour the fullest possible investigation by a non-political tribunal before duties are altered. Wc fully recognize, as the Nationalist and Liberal parties have done in the past, the great importance to local manufacturing, and of the dependence of a great section of our farmers, who do not produce for export, upon the consumption demand of the industrial workers. I need scarcely say that the United Australia Party stands for the fullest attainable measure of preferential Empire trade. The abandonment by Britain of the old freetrade policy appears to open the way to a great extension of reciprocal tariff agreements between the two countries. As soon as the British Government is ready for action, we would gladly enter into trade negotiations. Every step should also be taken to extend preferential trade agreements between Australia and the other dominions. This may be briefly summarized as - Efficient industry as an essential qualification for tariff shelter. A competitive as distinct from a prohibitive tariff level. Tariff-making through the Tariff Board., and not by arbitrary ministerial action. In framing the articles at Ottawa, it was not visualized, nor is it now contemplated, that " reasonable competition " should mean destructive competition. Article 10 refers to " reasonable competition on the basis of the relative cost of economical and efficient production, provided that in the application of such principle, special consideration may be given to the case of industries not fully established." It is clearly and concisely stated that the competition is to be reasonable - not unreasonable or unfair. Criticism of this principle could only be based on the assumption that protection means prohibition, and the elimination of all competition from our markets. Not only is competition to be reasonable, but it is also to be based on the relative cost, of economical and efficient production. If in such production Australian costs are higher, allowance must' be made for such higher costs in ascertaining the protection necessary. The reference to economical and efficient production in the article is important, as it lays down that the community as a whole should not be asked to bear any scale of higher costs that any Australian industry may choose to incur. The fallacy of prohibitive tariffs lies in the assumption that a country may thus make itself prosperous regardless of the rest of the world. This is a delusion. America, with all her resources, tried to live to herself, and is now tasting the fruit of her economic folly. And where America was brought down in the general collapse, no other nation can hope to stand alone I ask this committee, and the public of Australia, to view this " reasonable ' competition " from the view-point that it will be the. automatic price regulator which will prevent exploitation of the public and the formation of powerful monopolies. It will limit the excess demand price of industry, and serve as an instrument of protection to the public. Efficient and economic industry, selling its products at reasonable prices, has nothing to fear from the undertakings given in the articles of the Ottawa agreement. I now turn to other aspects, and it will perhaps be of interest to honorable members to learn that in accordance with the promise given in article -11 that a review by the Tariff Board of existing protective duties would be undertaken, the Tariff Board's attention was invited to articles S to 13 and 15. It was intimated to the board that these articles are to be regarded as recording the decision of Parliament as to the principles to be applied by the hoard in exercising its functions of reviewing and making recommendations with respect to customs duties. It is obviously impracticable for the board simultaneously to review the whole of the protective items in the tariff. Consideration was, therefore, given to the most satisfactory method of carrying out as early as possible the review which Parliament agreed should be made. Holding the view that the board would be in a position to say that no immediate alteration was required in a number of these items which had been the subject of inquiry within recent years, an expression of opinion was sought from the board as to whether any of its reports presented within the last three years required review in the light of the principles embodied in the Trade Agreement Act. It was made clear to the board that any opinion expressed by it would be accepted as an interim recommendation, and provisional only in character. It would not preclude the board from making full inquiry at a later and more convenient stage. The Government's action in this respect was dictated by a desire that the board should be left with greater freedom to conduct inquiries into those industries which had not formed the subject of inquiries in recent times. The Government felt that it was bound, as a matter of principle, to give early attention to such inquiries rather than to those which had received the attention of the board during the last few years. The board, in reply, after retailing a lengthy list of subjects covering in all some 201 reports which provisionally it considers unnecessary to review at this stage, intimated that, in the light of the facts disclosed at the inquiries, and having regard to the terms of the United Kingdom and Australia Trade Agreement, thirteen reports out of the number submitted during the last three years should be referred back for review. The reports relate to the following: - Socks and stockings. Hatsand hoods (millinery section of Item 114 (f) ) Apparel (sub-item (a) and (b) of Item 110). Waterproofed cloth. Cordage, rope and twine. Jute, hemp and flax yarns. Glue (Item 255 (a) ). Brasswork and bronzework. Domestic smoothing irons, electric (Item 190 (b) (1) ) Gears, wheels and pinions. Bolts and nuts. Deck spikes. Cresylic acid. With the exception of glue, concerning which there was a special agreement made between Empire manufacturers at Ottawa, action has been taken to refer these items to the Tariff Board for further inquiry. In respect to those 201 reports which have been submitted by the board during the last three years, and which the board considers provisionally meet the requirements of the Ottawa Agreement, the Government takes the view that it has, for the time being, substantially complied with the agreement. As regards the other items in the tariff under which protection is afforded to Australian industry, as a first step towards the fulfilment of our specific undertaking for a review to be made by the Tariff Board, references covering 65 items and sub-items have been signed and forwarded to the board, and these will be supplemented from time to time. Concern has been expressed in some quarters' with regard to the increase in imports and the consequential rise in customs revenue, and it is represented that the Commonwealth will be forced into the position of having to default with respect to its overseas obligations. The Government stands for the fulfilment of its obligations, financial and otherwise. The increased imports and buoyant revenue returns are undoubted evidence of returning prosperity. An analysis of the imports indicates that there has been an increasing proportion of raw materials and capital goods. This particularly pleasing feature of recent import statistics indicates that increased quantities of raw materials, toolsof trade and machinery are necessary to meet the demands of our local industries. Notable increases have occurred in the importation of the following classes of goods : - Pulp for paper making. Bags and sacks. Machines and machinery of almost every class. Tools of trade. Sulphur Metal alloys. Linseed Undressed timber. An examination of the import figures covering 100 important items representing raw materials of various "kinds discloses that while in 1928-29 the imports under these items were valued at £25,042,000 or 17.5 per cent, of the total commodity imports of £143,280,000, the position in 1931-32 was" £11,527,000 out of a total commodity import of £44,042,000, or 26.2 per cent. That the increase in imports and revenue returns are symbolic of what may be the lifting of the depression is also evidenced by a diminution of unemployment figures. All honorable members are aware of the great improvement in employment during recent months. A comparison of the number of persons registered for employment in the Melbourne metropolitan district for the fourth week of February, 1933, as compared with the fourth week of February, 1932, shows a decrease of 12,400. These figures were obtained yesterday from the Secretary for Labour in Melbourne, so they are authentic. The figures are 39,861 as against this year's figures of 27,473. Statistics from other States also indicate the reduction of unemployment. The Government is glad to see these and other signs of a change for the better. World conditions are so unstable that no one can predict the future with any degree of confidence, but conditions in Australia are certainly improving. Generally, there appears to be a lack of appreciation of the aid rendered to industry through admission of goods under customs by-laws. For the last year, the value of goods admitted under three of the principal by-law items, viz., Items 174, 404 and 415, amounted to approximately £2,300,000, or over 5 per cent, of the value of total imports 'for that year. There are, of course, many, other by-law items in the tariff under which goods are admitted free of duty or at nominal rates. I mention this aspect of customs administration for the purpose of indicating to those who, looking merely at the tariff schedule, protest that duties are too high, that provision exists in the tariff for the concessional admission of raw materials and capital goods. A new feature of this tariff arises out of an exploration of protected fields of industry, especially those protected under generic items in the tariff. Each of these items covers a comprehensive range of goods and materials, and where such goods are not being manufactured in Australia, it is proposed to make specific provision in the tariff at nominal rates of duty. The latest schedules introduced exemplify this principle and afford to industry at lower rates of duty essential commodities which were previously dutiable at high rates. Australian industry benefits by this refinement of the tariff by reason of being able to acquire what are mostly capital goods free of duty or at nominal rates. Much the same principle is being applied in regard to another section of our tariff. The by-laws issued under certain customs tariff items are being reviewed for the purpose of ascertaining what goods, particularly capital goods, can be specifically provided for in the tariff. Instead of being admissible at the rates provided under a by-law item at the discretion of the Minister - a responsibility which, I submit, no Minister wants - the specific enumeration of the goods in the tariff entitles the goods of their own right to admission free of duty or at low rates. As a result of this initial review, some 367 machines and appliances which were formerly admissible under by-law have been provided for' in the tariff. This action is taken in fulfilment of a promise made by the Australian delegation to the British delegation at Ottawa. The Ottawa agreement, however, is a fait accompli, and its possibilities and criticisms were fully voiced before the agreement was accepted. To ratify the various schedules and to weave into the tariff the decisions and the goodwill of the Ottawa Conference so that it may be an enduring fabric for empire economic unity and an example to the world, is the business of this Parliament. Free trade and the neglect of secondary industries would not permit us to maintain our present population, while prohibition or duties inordinately high, whether on the products of primary or secondary industries, would be dangerous to the economic well-being of the nation, stimulating some industries while dislocating trade and creating unemployment by their impact upon others. The Government's policy steers a course mid-way between these extremes, maintaining a fair and reasonable balance between primary and secondary industries. Operating equitably and away from the extremism of sectional interests, the result should be a healthy reaction in both primary and secondary industries with increased employment in the community as a whole. I ask the committee to accept the schedule. If honorable members wish to consider the new proposals before proceeding with the general debate, the Government will offer no objection to progress being reported. 61 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - As honorable members would like an opportunity to study the schedule, and also the speech of the Minister in introducing it, I hope the Minister will agree to report progress. 61 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - Very well. Progress reported. 61 adjournment Lease of Cockatoo Island Dockyard 61 KZO Kooyong UAP Attorney-General 1 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM . - In moving - That the House do now adjourn. I desire to say that the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Perkins) will, upon this motion, make a statement with reference to the recent leasing of Cockatoo Island Dockyard, which will afford honorable members an opportunity to offer any comments they may wish to pass upon the action of the Government. 61 KXY Eden-Monaro UAP Monaro- Minister for the Interior 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS . - As honorable members are aware, successive Commonwealth Governments have, for several years, been greatly worried over affairs connected with the Cockatoo Island Dockyard. That enterprise was established by a New South Wales Government, and was under State control until 1913, when it was taken over by the Defence Department, and since 1921 has been administered by the Commonwealth Shipping Board. During the war, and for some years afterwards, the dockyard occasionally showed a profit on its operations, but for the last five years deficits have been piling up steadily, and how total over £250,000. For the present year losses are being incurred at the rate of £75,000 a year. Because of the difficulty in finding useful work for the dockyard, large numbers of men have been dismissed from time to time. During the war period, it gave employment to about 4,000 workmen, but for the last two or three years the number has dropped to slightly over 400. In its efforts to find work for the dockyard, the Commonwealth has been obliged to pay more for certain works than would have been charged had they been carried out by private enterprise. Towards the end of its term of office the Bruce-Page Government invited tenders for the leasing of the yard. Several applications were received, but before they could be dealt with the Government was defeated, and when the Scullin Government assumed office nothing further was done in the matter. This Government, having in mind the unsatisfactory financial position of the dockyard, decided recently to call fresh tenders for the leasing of the dockyard, and received three applications of a character that warranted it making every effort to bring the negotiations to a satisfactory conclusion, with the result that, as from the 1st March, the dockyard passed to the control of a company, the personnel of which has been carrying on successful trading operations in Sydney and Melbourne. I refer to the Davis Gelatine Company. 61 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - The manager of the company was a member of a firm in Melbourne which went bankrupt. 61 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - I know that the company I have named is highly respected by its employees. In view of the fact that the dockyard had been losing money at the rate of over £60,000 a year the offer made by the successful company was considered by the Government to be a surprisingly good one. The difficulty experienced by the Government in carrying on the dockyard profitably was due, not to any inherent fault in management, but to a judgment of the High Court with reference to the Bunnerong engineering contract, the effect of which was to prevent a Commonwealth enterprise from undertaking private work. In consequence of that judgment it was impossible for the Government to carry on the dockyard except at a heavy loss. One way out of the difficulty was to sell the dockyard outright; but obviously that was not the wisest course to take, because, in the event of any untoward happening, such as the outbreak of war, the Government would be forced to exercise emergency powers and resume possession of the dock. 62 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - In any case who could buy it? 62 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - That aspect was considered by the Government. It did not know any one who would buy the dockyard, and had to drop that idea. It then tried to carry on, but found ' that an impossibility. Nor did it' believe that the closing down of the yard would bc a solution of the problem, because valuable machinery, essential for naval repair work, would deteriorate, and, in the course of a few years, the position would be as bad as if the Government had sold the dockyard. Therefore, the only thing to do was to lease the yard, and I arn glad to say that a satisfactory arrangement has been made with the company in question. Apart from interest charges and depreciation, a very important factor in the working of the dockyard, the average loss on the dockyard has been £60,000 a year. 62 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - How was the loss ascertained ? 62 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - The losses disclosed by the balance-sheets of the Australian Shipping Board have been - for the year ended the 31st March, 1929, £37,399; 1930, £62,420; 1931, £62,741; and 1932, £47,143. For the eleven months ended the 28th February, 1933, they were estimated to be £50,000, making a total of £259,703. 62 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - The dockyard was not doing work for private enterprise; how were the earnings ascertained during those years ? 62 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - Every job was priced. 62 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Was anything charged to depreciation? 62 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - No charge for depreciation is included in these figures. The dockyard has been leased for a period of 21 years. The rental has been fixed on a percentage of the turnover, with a minimum of '£1,000 per annum for the first three years, and a maximum of £50,000 per annum, according to the volume of work offering. Honorable members may sheer at the rental of £1,000 per annum for the first three years, but this is a large amount for the company to pay, having regard to the estimate that a continuance of government management would have resulted in a loss of £50;000 this year. Therefore, the arrangement by which the Government wi1! receive £1,000 instead of having to bear a loss of £50,000, represents a big saving. In the first year of the lease the company will pay, provided it makes a profit, a rental equivalent to 2£ per cent, of the turnover ; in the second year,, 3 per cent. ; and in subsequent years the rate will gradually increase to 5 per cent., but will not "exceed £50,000 in any one year. The Government guarantees to give work to the lessees to the value of £40,000 per annum for the first three years. During that period, should the company make a loss on the working expenses, the Government will, under certain conditions, share . on a pound for pound basis in such loss, up to a maximum of £16,666. But in the event of government work to the extent of £40,000 per annum being entrusted to the company, the Commonwealth will be under no obligation to contribute towards any loss sustained by the company. These conditions apply only to the first three years of the lease, after which the company will bear full responsibility for any loss. 62 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - The Government never gave £40,000 worth of work per annum to the dockyard before. 62 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - Last year the Government had to provide £47,143 in cash to make good the loss on the dockyard, and the average losses for the last five years have considerably exceeded that amount. The £40,000 worth of work is based on a fair average, and can safely be guaranteed by the Government. The greatest liability which the Government can be required to bear in any one year is £16,666, and that applies only to the first three years of the lease, after which the company Will have to bear its own losses and pay a rental on a percentage basis. Adequate provision is made in the agreement for the proper care and maintenance of the works and for the Government to assume control, "if necessary, in any national emergency. The employees also are safeguarded, although not specifically in the written agreement. In recent years, only a nucleus staff has been employed, and nearly all the men who were in charge of the machinery were highly skilled and experienced. In the reduction of the number of employees from 4,000 to 400, only the most skilled have been retained. That fact is appreciated by the lessees. Certain figures which I mentioned in answer to questions to-day were challenged, but they have been confirmed by later investigation. When the company took over the dockyard on the 1st March, the number of employees was 400 ; on the 2nd March, 303 ; on the 3rd March, 300 ; on the 6th March, 300; on the 7th March, 323; and on the 8th March, 359. On the 28th February, the day before the transfer, the number of men employed at the yard by the Australian Shipping Board was 400. It is true that 500 men were working there, but of that number 100 were engaged principally on repairs and maintenance from funds provided by the Treasury, and from the unemployment relief vote. As these funds were practically exhausted and most of the works were completed, the 100 casual employees would have been put off on the 1st March, even if the Government had retained control. It will be seen, therefore, that the statement that since the transfer of the dockyard to private control the number of employees has been reduced from 500 to 350, is erroneous. The whole transaction has been straightforward and above board, and I believe that even the employees will be grateful to the Government for the course it has adopted. Only to-day the Government was informed by the lessees that they have secured extra work, and they hope in a few weeks to be employing not only 359 men, but a considerably greater number than the Government was able to employ, because of the limitations imposed by the Bunnerong judgment. The transaction is one of which the Government has every reason to be satisfied. Mr.ROSEVEAR (Dalley) [8.40].- I am not satisfied with the procedure adopted by the Government to announce to the House the details of the agreement for the disposal of the Cockatoo Island Dockyard. The negotiations from their inception, have been surrounded with an atmosphere of mystery, which I have never been able to penetrate. As far back as the 1st September, when the Government's intention to lease the dockyard was first rumoured, I asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) whether the House would be afforded an opportunity to discuss the details of any proposal to lease or otherwise dispose of this national asset. The Prime Minister replied that an announcement in regard thereto would be made in due course. The first announcement on the subject was that made to-night on the motion for the adjournment of the House after the deal had been completed, the details of which honorable members have had no opportunity to discuss. Tenders for the lease of the dockyard were called for on the 5th October. On the 14th October, I asked the Prime Minister whether any tenders had been received, and I was assured that no firm offer had been made, but that contingent offers for the negotiation of the lease had been received from representatives of three sets of interests. So much was thought of these offers that the firms concerned were given an extension of time until the 6th November to amend them. On the 9th November, I again inquired whether before accepting any tender, the Government would give the House an opportunity to deal with the whole proposal for leasing. The Prime Minister replied that the Government was of opinion that any such discussion would greatly prejudice the negotiations. The Government was proposing to dispose of a national asset worth £2,000,000, and this House, which is supposed to be the guardian of the interests of the people, might not discuss the project ! Some time ago the Prime Minister informed the press that the Government had made a good business deal and disclosed some of the details of the contract. Apparently he was prepared to disclose more details to the press than to this House. Let us examine this " good business deal." For 21 years the dockyard is to be leased to a private firm at a rental commencing at £1,000 per annum. A second-class suburban hotel could not be leased for that amount, let alone a dockyard worth £2,000,000, the finest in the southern hemisphere. The Minister for the Interior (Mr. Perkins) stated, in reply to an interjection by me, that no depreciation had been charged on the plant at Cockatoo Dockyard. I challenge that statement; £65,000 was charged against the accounts of the dockyard for depreciation when it was under government control. 64 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - The honorable member has misunderstood the Minister's statement, which was . that depreciation had not been charged when arriving at the losses sustained by the dockyard. 64 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - Even if the lessees were charged for the 21 years the maximum rental of £50,000 a year, which may never be realized, there would still be unaccounted for £300,000 of depreciation, which would have been charged against the accounts of the dockyard had it remained under government control. Moreover, the Government has guaranteed to the lessees £40,000 worth of government work per annum for the first three years of the lease. I have always understood that the Government believed in giving private enterprise fair and equal opportunity to tender for government work. How can there be fair and equal opportunitywhen one firm is guaranteed £40,000 worth of government work without having to tender against other private firms? Is not that distinct favoritism? I challenge the Government to show that it has at any time, except during the war, given £40,000 worth of Commonwealth work to the dockyard. Yet a guarantee of that amount of work is part of the agreement which has been made with the new lessees. In addition to this guarantee, the Government is to share on a pound for pound basis in any losses sustained by the company, to a maximum liability of £16,666. 64 KHO UAP 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - That is not additional ; that is an alternative. 64 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - This gives another inducement to this firm to compete unfairly with other private enterprises. In tendering for work, the lessees of Cockatoo Dockyard will be able to undercut their competitors, because they know that the Government must share in any losses sustained to a maximum of £16,666. Surely the lessees are " on velvet ". They have obtained £2,000,000 worth of plant for a rental of £1,000 per annum for the first three years, risirig in certain extremely remote circumstances to £50,000; they are guaranteed £40,000 worth of government work; and when they compete in the open market against other firms, they have the backing of a government subsidy which enables them to undercut their rivals. This was certainly a " good business deal" - for the lessees, not for the Government. Reference has been made to the Bunnerong judgment, by which the High Court hamstrung the Cockatoo Island Dockyard in regard to one contract to the extent of £750,000. Another contract involving £250,000 was also lost. At the deputation at which the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Holman) and myself were present, that honorable member stated that many prominent members of the legal fraternity considered that the Bunnerong judgment was wrong. 64 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - What I said was that it could be avoided. 64 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - Instead of sacrificing Cockatoo Island Dockyard, the Government should have tested the Bunnerong judgment. 64 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - That was a decision of the High Court. 64 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - High Court decisions have been successfully challenged. The Government, while it had control of the dockyard, was not permitted to tender against private enterprise for outside work, but this company which is now taking over the dockyard will be subsidized by the Government to enable it to tender for outside work to be carried out with plant which is actually the property of the Commonwealth. If the Government itself cannot tender for contracts against private enterprise, how can it subsidize tenderers as is proposed in this contract? The dockyard is a branch of the Defence Forces. The nation does not take into account any loss on the army and navy; it considers that defence expenditure is necessary, and expects nothing in return for it. The Cockatoo Island Dockyard is an indispensable unit of our Defence Force, and, therefore, any expenditure upon docking or shipbuilding facilities there should be treated as expenditure on the upkeep of the army and navy. The statement of the Minister for the Interior regarding re-employment at the dockyard is incorrect. Most of the men employed at present at the dockyard are painters and dockers, who probably work a day or a day and a half a week at the outside. Although 350 men may be working there to-day, it is possible that to-morrow the number will fall to 150. A vessel arrives in the morning, is docked and painted, and departs at night. I have seen as many as 700 men working at the dockyard on one day and on the next day the number has been reduced to 400. It is useless to say that this firm will bring work to Cockatoo Island Dockyard. The plant there is up to date, and the firm will be able to compete for a class of work that no other firm in Sydney can carry out. That has always been the case. The fact that private . enterprise is in possession of Cockatoo Island Dockyard will not necessarily mean that there will be an increase in the volume of work in the engineering trade. The only difference will be that certain classes of work previously performed by Mori's Dock Limited and other engineering companies, will be carried out at Cockatoo Island. The Government is guaranteeing this firm work to the extent of £40,000 per annum, and on top of that a subsidy of £16,666 is to be paid. The firm will, therefore, have a decided advantage over its competitors in the trade. There is at the dockyard an efficient body of artisans, but we have no guarantee that they will continue to be employed. As a matter of fact many of them, some with' over twenty years' service, have already been dismissed. They are trained in work which is indispensable for the upkeep of the navy. The Minister has said that in case of emergency the dockyard will be taken over by the Government. But what will be the use of that condition if there is no provision in the lease to ensure that the dockyard and staff are kept efficient? As a matter of fact, the rental which the Government is to receive will not be sufficient to cover the present, depreciation charges. My request to-day for the tabling of the papers on this subject has probably caused the Government to bring up this matter to-night, but I shall not be satisfied with this haphazard discussion. The efforts that have been made by the Government from time to time to prevent any discussion of the leasing of the dockyard, have raised a certain amount of suspicion in my mind as to its intentions. Few, details of the lease have been placed before us, and when the full particulars are known to the people they will, no doubt, find that this transaction can be placed in the same category as the disposal of the Commonwealth "Woollen Mills and the Australian Commonwealth Line of Steamers. Our shipping line, which was sold to one of the cheapest commercial crooks in Great Britain, has not yet been paid for; but that transaction will fade into insignificance in comparison with the trickery that has gone on in regard to the Cockatoo Island Dockyard. 65 DQC North Sydney 0 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr HUGHES . - I do not intend to discuss at this juncture the merits of this subject to which the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) and other honorable members have referred, but I express the opinion that an opportunity should be given to this House to discuss it fully. It is a big question, involving the broad principles of national policy. Reference has been made .to many matters concerning the dockyard. It has been said that men who have been employed there for the past twenty years . have been turned adrift. Whether these things be true I do not know, but, at any rate, one thing which emerges clear is that this great instrumentality of the Commonwealth has been disposed of, and, therefore, the House should have an opportunity to discuss, in a full-dress debate, the Government's action. I hope that that .assurance will be given to us. 65 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY . - It took the Minister for the Interior about thirteen minutes to inform the House of the manner in which the Government has disposed of this national asset, worth about £2,000,000. The Government might "have extended to honorable members at least the scant courtesy of laying on the table of the House, or of the Library, the terms and conditions of the lease entered into between it and the private company concerned. As the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) has said, no honorable member is in a pos tion to discuss this matter properly while he remains ignorant of the conditions of the lease. The statement read by the Minister was evidently prepared for him by his department. When questioned by the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Holman) regarding certain amounts of money, the Minister repeated his figures, hut did not answer the query of the honorable member. If the disposal of the dockyard is considered by the Government to be a great ^business deal and in conformity with its efforts to place this country in a sound position during the crisis through which we are passing, it is not much to its credit. First of all we have been informed that at the commencement the rental is to be £1,000 a year. Let me tell honorable members that there are on the island eleven cottages worth more than £1,000, without taking into account the value of the machinery and plant. Just before this contract was entered into, as many as 70 men were employed by the Government in reconditioning these waterfront cottages to make them habitable for certain members of this firm. Mr. Fraser, who was a member of Bell and Fraser, a firm of timber merchants now bankrupt, is to be the general manager of the dockyard. He is to occupy the elaborate establishment built for the general manager, and fitted at the expense of the taxpayers of this country with every convenience that modern science and invention can provide. I am inclined to think that the supporters of the Government know no more about this transaction than we do, and I can hardly believe. that they are satisfied with the way in which the Government has handled this national asset. Other big assets belonging to the Commonwealth have also been handled most unsatisfactorily. In withholding ,the details of this transaction, the Government is not playing the game with the public of this country. The Government has seized the first opportunity to unload this great undertaking, with no thought to the employees or to the depreciation of the plant at the island. The class of plant at the dockyard will depreciate quickly. 66 KNP 0 0 MAXWELL, George Mr Maxwell - We have 'been told that the plant must be maintained in its present condition. 66 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - We have had no opportunity to ascertain whether ample safeguards have been provided for the maintenance of the plant. The Government should inform us of the terms of the lease, and the safeguards provided in it. I know that the electrical plant at the island will, within three months, depreciate in value considerably unless constant attention is given to it, entailing a large overhead expenditure over a period of years. If the plant is not kept in proper order, it will be of no use at a time when all the resources of this country are needed for its defence. How could one go into the switch house and switch on gear if it has been left to go to rack and ruin ? This vast undertaking has been built up over a long period of years, and in it is installed the most modern plant in the southern hemisphere. It has special plant for the handling of turbines, and it is the only place in Australia where work of this character can be carried out. Only two or three years ago, a dock was lengthened to accommodate the largest British warship afloat, yet that is to be handed over to private enterprise. An inventory of the plant was taken in 1928, when the suggestion to dispose of the island was first mooted. The Auditor-General, to nay knowledge, has not visited the island to make a proper inventory of the plant, stores and equipment there. What has he to say about this matter? As the custodian of the assets of the people he should be able to say exactly what p'ant and materials are there. What chance shall we have of getting anything at the end of 21 years? I speak with some knowledge of the institution, having been employed there for some years, during which time I was associated with work of a naval character, and, in addition, I have the knowledge gained from my experience as an electrical fitter. I know what the island can do, and I agree with the right honorable member for North Sydney that we shall have to await our opportunity. . We must demand that the Government shall lay all the facts on the table of the House, so that honorable members may become acquainted with them and so from their places in this House express themselves fearlessly and effectively. The way in which this national asset, valued at £2,000,000, has been dealt with is shameful. It is a disgrace to the Government. 61 KHO Martin 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN .- I agree with other honorable members who have spoken that it is difficult to discuss this matter fully to-night, and I join with them in urging the Government to provide an opportunity for a fuller debate than is now- possible. If that opportunity is to be given it would, perhaps, be reasonable for me to postpone any remarks that I might make until that occasion arises; but since that opportunity might not be given at a time when it would be possible for me to participate in the debate, I beg the indulgence of honorable members for a few minutes whil e I put before the House such considerations as occur to me. The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) is the member for the area concerned; while the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has an intimate personal acquaintance with the dockyard, a claim which, personally, I cannot make. I do not share the suspicion which those two honorable gentlemen breathed in each syllable that they spoke in relation to this contract; but I am bound to say that, without fuller information about the contract, it is impossible for any one to undertake to dissipate that suspicion. I therefore urge the Government, in the interests of us all, and particularly of those who support the Government's action in leasing the dockyard, to let us know the circumstances connected with the lease. I shall place before honorable members my reasons for supporting the leasing of the island, although it is not a step over which we should rejoice. I entirely agree with the honorable member for Dalley that the yard is not primarily a business undertaking, but is a unit in our scheme of national defence. I agree with him that we should be no more concerned with its balance-sheet than we would be with the balance-sheet of the Army or the Navy. The three stand together, and some expense must be incurred in connexion with each of them. In its day the dockyard was an asset valued at £2,000,000, manned by about 4.000 workmen. Whether at that time it paid its way, or was a source of loss, I neither know nor care. I am speaking of those years at the close of, and immediately following the war. Cockatoo Island Dockyard was then a most valuable institution doing necessary work. 61 KX9 ALP; FLP from 1931 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - Walsh Island has also been closed down. 61 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - Walsh Island is on an entirely different footing; it was never associated with the defence organization of Australia. I have some knowledge of Walsh Island, and I know that it was commenced by the New South Wales Government after Cockatoo Island Dockyard had been handed over to the federal authorities. I understand that when the war ended the amount of work at the dockyard fell away; but of that I have no personal knowledge. It was then decided to seek civil work. Contracts were obtained, and the work was carried out with a considerable measure of success until the Bunnerong judgment stopped the Commonwealth instrumentality from carrying out the special works, because they could not be justified under any of the 39 powers of the Commonwealth. That, broadly, is the meaning of the Bunnerong judgment. The honorable member for Dalley may remember that I mentioned to him while we were both on a recent deputation that that judgment might be avoided by accepting interstate and overseas work to which the judgment would probably not apply, but I confess that that idea has never been properly investigated by me, and that I have never come to a final conclusion regarding it. The Government decided to overcome the difficulty by leasing the dock to a private firm, which would not be under the restraint which the High Court held applied to the activities of the Commonwealth Government. The High Court held that the Commonwealth Government may only enter into contracts affecting one or more of its specific powers. The Bunnerong contract could not be brought in under any of those powers, and was, therefore, ultra vires the Constitution altogether. That was the judgment of the court. Here I part company with the honorable member for Dalley. The company may hope to do two things. First, it may hope to obtain contracts which it would not be possible for the Commonwealth Government to get. The Bunnerong judgment is one affecting constitutional powers - the limits of the powers between the Commonwealth and the States, and it is doubtful whether an appeal would lie from it to the Privy Council. 68 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - How would the company stand while it is being subsidized by the Government? 68 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - That is a question which might well be considered, for it raises a difficulty of some substance.- I am not now speaking of the legal difficulties. except to the extent that, in the first place, the company could do work which the Bunnerong judgment forbids the Government to do, and secondly, that the company might reasonably expect to obtain work which would not fall into the hands of any competing firm in Australia. 68 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Does the honorable member expect an increase in the volume of work? 68 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - Yes, because the company might »i- ,,v work from overseas which otherwise would not come to Australia at all. I understand that the company has ground for supposing that it will get such contracts. 68 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - That is already the case,, because Cockatoo Island could do work which other Australian firms could not undertake. 68 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - It is true that Cockatoo Island possesses facilities which ar«. unequalled in Australia - I shall not go beyond that boundary. A docking contract which would not be open to a dockyard under the control of the Commonwealth, because the Bunnerong judgment stands in the way, would be open to a company, because the Bunnerong judgment would not stand in the way, and it would be a piece of work which would not be taken from any other dockyard in Australia. 68 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - In such circumstances the Bunnerong judgment has not been considered as a bar to the dockyard undertaking work. 68 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - It is equally ultra vires the Commonwealth whether there is competition or not. Probably the posit:on is that there was no one prepared to dispute the action of the Shipping Board. The company, however, may reasonably hope to get a certain amount of work which would not be drawn from other companies in Australia, because of the better facilities that it has, and because contracts forbidden to the Commonwealth would be open to it. Those two things together make the company leasing the Cockatoo Dockyard a more efficient business combination than any other company with inferior accommodation, or a dockyard under an organization whose hands are tied. 68 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Does the honorable member think that it is right to give the company work to the value of £40,000 ? 68 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - When we know the facts, we shall probably learn that that was a condition insisted upon by the company to help it over the transition period. I feel confident that honorable members who are opposed to the Government in this matter do not wish to be unreasonable, and that they will agree that it is no light task for a company to handle a plant valued at £2,000,000, which has remained idle for some years, and to obtain work which will keep that plant and a large body of men employed. A company which undertakes that task is entitled to considerate treatment at the hands of the Government. It is entitled to guarantees. Whether the guarantees which have been given are too great or too small is a matter for detailed consideration when all the facts are before us. I desire to be excused from entering upon that discussion now. Honorable members opposite have spoken, animated by suspicion. I admit that their suspicion is not unnatural when the facts have come out in the piecemeal way that they have. But the Government is not to blame. To-day is the first meeting of this House for some months. It may be that the recess was too long; that is a matter about which governments and oppositions invariably quarrel. During the recess, the Government has been fully occupied with the tariff and other matters. At any rate, this is the first opportunity that this House has had to discuss the matter. Although honorable members may lament the absence of detailed information, they cannot reasonably suggest that there has been any wilful concealment or suppression of facts. On the question of the policy involved, I am entirely in agreement with the Government. In the circumstances, it has followed the right course. I do not say that I understand - every detail, or even that in regard to some of the details the Government may not be open to attack. A matter which I admit might have been postponed, in view of the general difficulties of the position, but which materially affects a large body of my constituents with whom 1 am in constant touch, is that the 400 men - 1 accept that figure as being substantially correct - who at the time of the transfer of the dock to the company last year were permanently employed have, apparently, -not been the object of any clause in the contract . stipulating their protection. I use the word " apparently ", because I have not seen the contract. Apparently there has been nothing beyond a verbal promise by the chairman of the company to the Government that the men would be considered. Some of the men concerned have been put off. No doubt they will be employed again as rapidly as circumstances permit, in pursuance of that promise; but these men who enjoyed superannuation and furlough rights when they were servants of the Commonwealth Government, now find that the Government regards them as having lost their rights, as the result of a legal juggle perpetrated upon them some eight or nine years ago. With the indulgence of the House, I shall explain how that arose. The dockyard was at one time under the control of a body known as the Commonwealth Shipping Construction Board - I ask to be corrected if I am wrong. With that board the men entered into arbitration. An arbitrator was appointed, and the board was summoned before him. An award was given securing > to these men certain rights. What those rights were in detail I do not know, although I have looked into the matter as it affects one class of men - the foremen. With the conditions of the rest I am not familiar. The arbitrator gave an award which secured to these men certain rights, including superannuation rights and furlough or compensation in lieu of furlough. Then, by administrative act, the dockyard was taken out of the control of the Shipping Construction Board and placed under the control of the Commonwealth Shipping Line. I am under the impression that this is what occurred; but, at all events, this important dockyard was handed over from the control of one agency of the Commonwealth to another. Then it was discovered that- 69 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 69 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN .- I did not realize, when the Minister was speaking on the adjournment motion, that this would be the only opportunity honorable members would have to discuss this important matter. I should imagine that before the House is asked to express its view on what has occurred, at least all the documents should be placed on the table, and honorable mem. bers should be enabled to acquaint themselves with the terms of the lease. When my Government took office a lease of the dock had been almost concluded; but we did not go on with the lease. We preferred to maintain the dockyard as a government institution. We regarded it as part of the defence policy of Australia to maintain a nationally-owned dockyard, but we found many great disabilities arising particularly from constitutional restrictions. We were naturally concerned on discovering that the yard could not accept work that was offering, and could not employ the number of men for whom work could have been found if it had not been for those restrictions. As a matter of fact, work has been done at Cockatoo Island since the High Court's decision in the Bunnerong case,'Which, in my opinion, if the verdict of the courthad been properly observed, could not have been undertaken; but as there was nobody sufficiently interested to challenge the right of the Government to do the work, the operations wore carried on. I do not think that there were any competitors with the dock in Australia for that particular work, and, therefore, there was nobody to raise the constitutional issue. Yet it is not a satisfactory position for the yard to be in. My Government deplored the financial loss which the maintenance of the yard involved, and the lack of opportunity to increase the amount of work available there; but we hoped to have an opportunity to amend the Constitution in order that it might he carried on as a national undertaking, without serious constitutional restrictions. It is not possible for honorable members with the information now before them to express an opinion as to whether the present 'Government has done what is best in the circumstances. The story needs to be told more completely than has been possible in the few minutes that has been devoted by the Minister to this subject to-night. I suggest to the Government that it should lay on the table, not only the terms of the contract, but also a full resume of the experience of the dockyard in the last two years. We should be informed as to the. work that it has obtained, and the prospects of its getting more work in the future if the Constitution were amended in order to remove the present restrictions. We are entitled to ask whether it would not be wise, after all, to amend the Constitution and retain the yard as a national undertaking. I was fairly well acquainted with the position in connexion with the island when I was in office. I do not suppose that any Government would feel happy with the dockyard on its hands and working under the restrictions imposed by the Constitution. Arrangements for the leasing of the dockyard were nearly completed by the Bruce Page Government when my Government took office. We had the advantage of the best advice we could get, but we were not satisfied with the terms then proposed for the leasing of. the undertaking, nor were we satisfied with the financial standing of the proposed lessees. I have no desire to cast reflections on individuals, yet it must be recognized that the lessees would not have found it easy to observe the conditions to be imposed on them. Speaking from memory, one of the clauses of the contract stated that the Government had to be satisfied as to the financial standing of the proposed lessees. 70 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - I think that there was a forfeiture clause in the nature of a bond. 70 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - But that would not be worth much, if the lessees lacked adequate financial standing. 70 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr Latham - In fact, the lease would have been completed had it not been for the parliamentary position. We stayed our hands because we thought that it was the proper thing to do in the circumstances. 70 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - I believe that the instrument was ready to be signed when the Bruce-Page Government was defeated, but my Government was not satisfied that it would have been justified in parting with a big national undertaking on the terms proposed. Honorable members are entitled to know the terms of the lease before there is any further discussion on the matter. 70 KZF Barton 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE .- I suppose that honorable members who know the history of Cockatoo Island Dockyard for the last 23 years will agree that the most damaging charge that can be levelled against it is that it has been a politically-run institution. When a certain party is in power, very few men outside that party can get a job at the dockyard. 70 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - Some men have been employed there for 25 years. 70 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I have lived in Dalley for many years, and I am aware of the difficulties surrounding the management of the dock. When the Brisbane was being built, six workmen marched round the island for six months, and' were paid wages, although they never did a day's work. 70 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear Rot ! 70 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - It is men of that type for whom honorable members opposite are standing up to-night. They want to obtain political control of the dock, as in days gone by. The workmen at Cockatoo Island and at Mort's Dock have to thank honorable members opposite, and the labour unions generally, for breaking down the discipline, and making it impossible for those docks to prove useful instruments for providing employment. When one of their leaders, Donald Grant, was employed in the construction of the Brisbane, I heard him say in the Domain, " Comrades, I never work except when the boss is there, and I advise everybody to make the job last as long as possible." These matters have been spoken of in every political battle in Dalley for the last 20 years. That is why Labour has such a strangle-hold on the electorate. I remember when there were from 3,000 to 4,000 men employed at Cockatoo Island, and if the dock is permitted to remain a government institution, it will again fall under political control, and bring grave financial loss to the people of Australia. I have lived within the precincts of Cockatoo Island for over 30 years, and I have known most of the men who have been employed there. I have also known most of the foremen, and I say without hesitation that the workmen themselves will back up the Government if, by the leasing of the dock, it restores employment to them. Some honorable members who advocate the socialization of all enterprise may recognize that an important institution is slipping out of their hands; but the honest workmen who have been employed on the island for many years will welcome a change of ownership if it will provide them with employment. 71 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - If Australia were involved in another war, would the honorable member then say that the government should take over the control of the dock? 71 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I do not believe that my friends opposite are concerned about this institution from a defence point of view. They are guilty of the greatest piece of hypocrisy imaginable. They have declared over and over again that they would not spend a penny on defence, even if an enemy came inside Sydney heads to-morrow. A lad who called at my home the other day declared " I do not know any country. I only know the working class." Yet certain honorable members opposite say that they believe in the Government maintaining the Cockatoo Island Dockyard as part of the defence force. Imagine the Labor Daily publishing an article to-morrow directing attention to the importance of developing Cockatoo Island as a government institution for defence purposes ! I know that the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has been converted recently, because, according to the press the other day, he has found a new job for the navy and the army. When his party gets into power, and puts its policy of socialization into operation, I shall begin to feel nervous, because I live opposite Botany Bay, and I can easily imagine the honorable member for West Sydney remarking to the commander of a gun boat, " There is Albert Lane's place. Have a shot at it." I point out the utter insincerity of honorable members opposite. 71 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - The word " insincerity " must be withdrawn. 71 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I withdraw it, but I do not know what word I can use instead of it. It is very difficult for me to believe that honorable members opposite are sincere when they advocate the maintenance of the dock as a -government institution for defence purposes. Mr.SPEAKER. - The honorable member has already withdrawn the word " insincerity"; but he immediately repeats his offence. I ask him to use parliamentary language. 71 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I withdraw the expression. 71 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - The honorable member is a " twicer." Did he not at Newcastle condemn his own government? 71 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 71 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - I shall read out his remarks one day in this House. 71 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If the honorable member for Hunter persists in ignoring my warning, I shall have to take extreme action. 71 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I take exception to the word "twicer." Is it parliamentary? 71 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Will the honorable member continue his remarks? 71 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I wish to point out that a party which denies that it is in favour of strengthening the defence forces of this country, and then contends that the Cockatoo Island Dockyard should be maintained as a national undertaking for defence purposes is inconsistent. I want the country to know that if that is the attitude of that party, it is not following the policy espoused by it at election times. Honorable members will do well to examine carefully the terms of this lease. If they do so, they will find that it will be wise not to let this opportunity to lease the dockyard slip through their fingers. Those who are not interested in law and order, who talk revolution, and who do not want to make this a country worth living in, will doubtless criticize this action of the Government, and seek to shroud this deal in suspicion; but I believe that the Government has done something that will serve the very best interests of the Commonwealth. It has been suggested that the Government is seeking to make a gift to private enterprise; but such a suggestion could have been born only in a petty mind. If honorable members compare the cost of warships built at Cockatoo Island with that of similar vessels built under private enterprise they will see that, even after making all allowance for differences in wages and the like, it is advantageous to have such work done privately. I know that the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has worked at Cockatoo Island Dockyard, and I ask him whether he knows of any other public undertaking which has been so extravagantly managed. The Government has done well in leasing this dockyard to private enterprise. 72 KNX Wentworth UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON . - It is rather difficult for me to continue this debate after the spirited defence of the Government by the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) ; but I feel that I ought to emphasize some facts in relation to the subject. It seems that this discussion has been introduced to-night by honorable members opposite on the ground that the Government has not made available the terms of the lease ; but I have no doubt that this information will be placed upon the table in due course. It is significant to me that not one honorable member opposite has advanced a single reason to justify the retention of this dockyard by the Government. I suppose that they realize that they are treading on rather difficult and dangerous ground, because the records of this enterprise reek with corruption; but that makes it all the more necessary for the whole concern to be handed over to private enterprise so that it may be cleansed. I was pleased to read the names of certain gentlemen who are interested in this transaction. I know that they are men of integrity and business ability, who will handle the dockyard in a thoroughly businesslike way. Numerous reports have been made on Cockatoo Island Dockyard, and on various occasions tenders have been invited for its lease. The Bruce-Page Government, I remember, invited tenders, but for some reason, possibly because private investors were reluctant to have anything to do with an undertaking which smelt so highly in the nostrils of the community, no business was done. A tremendous loss has beensustained in the conduct of this enterprise which has hung like a millstone round the neck of the taxpayer- for many years. The Minister has pointed out that the loss for the last five years has totalled £250,000, and that for the first eleven months of this financial year the loss amounted to £50,000. It is surely apparent, therefore, that this incubus should be removed from the body politic. The Government may be relied upon to preserve the rights of the employees at the dockyard. When a business changes hands the rights of the employees are usually safeguarded, and the fact that 359 of the 400 men originally employed in the dockyard are still employed there, is surely sufficient evidence that effective steps have been taken to preserve the interests of the workers. The first report to which I shall refer relates to the period from 1848 to 1913, when the State Government had charge of the dockyard. In 1903, a report was submitted which indicated clearly that political corruption was prevalent at the dockyard to an astounding degree. Mr. Board, who was the manager at that period, said, in his evidence before a committee of inquiry, that he had sacked men, and the Minister had sent them back to be re-engaged. 72 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr Baker - What Government was in power at that time? 72 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - If the honorable member wants details of that kind, he can look them up for himself. Mr. Board also said that at another time he sacked twelve men for inefficiency and six of them were sent back by the Minister for re-engagement. I come now to the report presented in 1915 by the Joint Committee of Public Accounts. This report shows clearly that there is abundant reason why the Government should place the dockyard under private enterprise. One engineer who gave evidence before that committee said that he found that " the plant consisted of a number of obsolete units in an extremely bad condition ". He also said that " the boilers were practically worn out, and the capacity of the plant was inadequate ". Another witness said that " at no time was the power adequate ". In regard to machinery, evidence was given that at the time when the State authorities contracted to build warships at Cockatoo, there was a shortage of the machine tools necessary to carry out such work expeditiously. Interesting evidence was also given by Mr. King Salter who was brought out from England to be general manager of the dockyard. This gentleman had " occupied responsible positions in the building of warships under the Admiralty ", and was a thoroughly experienced man. He gave some illustrations of the difference between the cost of certain work at Cockatoo under day labour, and that of similar work under the Admiralty piece-work system. He said - The cost of riveting steam drums and waterpockets of a boiler is 40s. per 100 at Home on piece-work as against 70s. per 100 on day work here. The cost of flanging boiler ends on piece-work at Home is ls. per foot; here on day labour the cost is Gs. per foot. The cost of tubing boilers of 2,400 tubes at Home by piece-work is £20; here the cost by day labour is £30. One witness informed the committee that " the men on piece-work at Home do two and two-thirds more than the men on day work at Cockatoo in the same time ". Another stated that " in the cases of the boiler-makers, the output at Cockatoo was only about one-third of the output in England ". I could go on indefinitely along this line. Mr. King Salter also drew attention to the pin-pricking effect of the policy which made it necessary for the dockyard to be carried on under a multiplicity of industrial awards. This, he said, injured both the workmanship and productivity of the island. I quote the following paragraph from the report : - It has already been stated that the work of the island is carried on under no fewer than 51 separate industrial awards, and it was very obvious to the committee that much of the friction between certain of the unions and also between the management and the men waB due to extreme difficulty of interpreting in detail and co-ordinating this multitude of rules anil regulations. The general manager complained of the difficulty of this position. " Here I a,m ", he said, " working under 51 awards, and new ones keep cropping up every day. How on -earth can a man run an establishment of this sort and meet the contending forces of 51. different awards." Several unions cover one industry. There are two painters' unions; there are three carpenters' unions. The labourers have many unions, and many awards and conflicting awards. It is absolutely impossible to try to run this island on economic lines, when you have fo many conflicting rates of pay and overtime, and all that sort of thing, and different rates for night shift. One of the greatest difficulties here is the multiplicity of labourers' unions necessitating the employment of a much larger number of men than is necessary. One union allows its members to handle , steel and iron, another union only allows its men to handle wood. 73 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Do not private employers have to observe industrial awards? 73 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - The policy of political control accentuates all the difficulties associated with the multiplicity of awards. All kinds of fighting goes on between the unions in this so-called paradise for the workers. In dealing with, this aspect of the subject, Mr. King Salter gave some illustrations which appear on page- 16 of the report. He then went on to say - I could multiply these matters ad infinitum. I had a fight the other day between certain trades over a temporary gantry. The joiners and shipwrights had a battle royal over it as to whether it was joiners' or shipwrights' work. 1 managed to fix them up. Thesequestions of demarcation lead to endless, deputations. I shall now direct attention for a moment to the report of a royal commission, which was tabled in 1921. The real facts brought to light by that commission are to be found in the minority report. The honorable member for Barton drew attention to the cost of certain vessels constructed at Cockatoo Island Dockyard. I point out that the Brisbane, which was built there, was estimated to cost £610,000. What it actually cost . I do not know. But the Sydney - that great ship that fought and sunk the German cruiser Emden, was built on the Clyde for £385,000, while , the Melbourne was built at Birkenhead for £405,000. The recital of these figures should be enough to make certain honorable members opposite hang their heads in shame, even after all allowances are made for our inexperience in building warships. But let _ us take such ordinary work as the building of launches. The Cresswell, which was built at Cockatoo Island, cost £12,800, while the sister launch, the Jennet, which was built in Melbourne, cost only £5,000. In these circumstances it is surely high time that the unfortunate taxpayer should be relieved of the burden of this dockyard. I wish now to quote briefly from the report of the Joint Committee of Public Accounts on " Commonwealth Government shipping activities, including Cockatoo Island Dockyard." These quotations will undoubtedly interest the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear), who alleged that the Government was giving £40,000 to private enterprise. The honorable member made a great show of indignation on this score, and also complained that the dockyard would now be able to compete against private enterprise, which, he contended, was never intended. This is a strange contention, in view of the following extract from the report to which I have just alluded : - Complaints have, however, been made at various times by business competitors that to obtain private work, the Cockatoo Island Dockyard authorities had made a practice of unreasonably undercutting prices, and that losses sustained on private work had been made up from undue profits on Government work. I could go on quoting figures to strengthen the already strong case that I have made out iu favour of the disposal of this undertaking to private enterprise. I know that it is hard for certain honorable gentleman who, since their childhood days, have been in favour of the nationalization of everything, to remain silent while the Government negotiates a deal of this kind; but I point out to them that the Queensland Labour Government has only recently disposed of the last of its business undertakings - the only one left to it by the Moore Government. Yet honorable members opposite continue to preach nationalization, the socialization of credit, and so on. If they persist with such hare-brained schemes they will involve the country in ruin. The Government has made a deal on which it should be commended. I have perfect confidence in the administration, and I am confident that, when the papers relating to this transaction are tabled, it will be proved that the conditions are beneficial to the taxpayers of Australia generally; and they are the people about whom I am mostly concerned. 74 KZO Kooyong UAP 1 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM .- This is the first day of the resumption of the session, and the Government has allowed honorable members an opportunity to have a preliminary " try out " on the subject of the leasing of Cockatoo Island Dockyard. Seeing that earlier in the day certain honorable members displayed some amount of excitement in the matter, it is disheartening that the Government has received no word of gratitude for its disinterested action. The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) sought to invest the subject with an air of mystery, signifying that he does not know much about it, and surrounded the transaction with an atmosphere of suspicion. There are those who are prepared to be suspicious of anything. Yet, although the honorable member has not, perhaps, engaged in any business enterprise on a large scale, he should know that it is quite impossible to negotiate the sale or leasing of a business of this magnitude on the floor of any parliament. I am sure that every honorable member realizes, in his heart, that that could not be done. Accordingly, the fact that such negotiations were conducted in private, as is usual, although the result was ultimately announced, affords no ground for suspicion. I could not help feeling, while some honorable members opposite were speaking on the subject, that they really had an uneasy suspicion that the Government had done the best thing. For all honorable members know that, unfortunately, Cockatoo Island Dockyard has been staggering along on a painfully limited scale of operations. It has been pitiful that this huge undertaking has in recent years never nearly reached capacity in its operations, the dockyard being mostly in the hands of caretakers. ' Honorable members know that, under the present arrangement, there will be a chance of the wheels again- turning satisfactorily, of hundreds of men working on the island, in place of the few who were working or caretaking there. Honorable members who referred to the machinery at the dockyard should realize that, instead of being an asset, it has been a liability to the Government, the facts proving that all efforts to make a success of it on the part of previous governments proved failures. The honorable member for Dalley complains of the assistance which the Government is giving to the dockyard, alleging that it will bring too much work to it. 75 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - I did not say anything of the kind. 75 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I agree that the honorable member did not appreciate the significance of his criticism, but he complained about the possible payment of £16.000 to the dockyard, and of the term in the agreement that, during the first three years, the Government will give a minimum of £40,000 worth of work to the company. Why? Because that will enable the dockyard to take work away from other enterprises. I should have thought that the honorable member would be pleased to see more work going to Cockatoo Island Dockyard. He bases his criticism upon the allegedly unduty favorable terms given to the dockyard, which will enable it to get more work than would otherwise be the case. The Government frankly disagrees with the honorable member's views, and wants to see a great deal more work go to the island. As all honorable members arc aware, the dockyard has been hampered in the most serious manner as a government enterprise. Already there are signs of improvement. We are informed that it has been entrusted with a contract valued at several thousand pounds, covering work that comes from outside the Commonwealth. That has occurred within a week of the leasing of the enterprise. 75 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Can the right honorable gentleman inform honorable members as to the nature of that work? 75 KZO 0 0 LATHAM, John Mr LATHAM - I have no further details but I accept what I have been told in good faith. So long as the dockyard was controlled either directly by the Government, or by the Commonwealth Shipping Board, it could not undertake private as distinct from Commonwealth work. The Government desires this machinery to be available for the work of the Commonwealth as a whole. Speaking as a legislator, and not from a legal aspect, I regret the decision of the High Court in the Bunnerong case, and think it most unfortunate from the point of view of the" ultimate interest of the Commonwealth. * As honorable members know, I am not enthusiastic about socialistic enterprises, but I believe that when the Government finds it necessary to maintain establish- ' ments for defence purposes, it ought to be entitled to put them, to general use, so far as is necessary to keep them at a high state of efficiency, even if that means undertaking private contracts. Under- the new conditions, the dockyard may undertake private work. In recent years heavy engineering work has been scanty in Australia, jobs that might well have been done here having gone overseas. The Government hopes that, under private management, Cockatoo Island Dockyard will obtain some of that work. Although, for political reasons, some honorable members may seek to criticize the Government over this transaction,, they must realize that, from the financial point of view, it has done a good thing in the interests of the community as a whole.. They know that the community could not carry on this unending and ever increasing loss. They also know that the dockyard has been leased to a company conducted by men who are well known, successful, and highly respected, and that the action of the Government has extended opportunities for employment. Honorable members have had an opportunity to express their views on the subject in the light of knowledge gained from the press, which gave a fairly comprehensive statement of the important terms of the contract. The Government will certainly lay on the table of the House the terms of the agreement. If that had been done to-day honorable members would still have complained that they had not time to read such a long document; in any case they would have criticized the Government. I am confident that, after perusing the document, honorable members will realize that, as is the case with other agreements, this one is not all to the advantage of one side; that it is an agreement made -on the best terms, arrived at after reasonable negotiation. The Government considers that it has protected the interests of the Commonwealth from the point of. view of defence, and that it has afforded additional opportunities for employment by making possible the utilization of the machinery at Cockatoo Island Dockyard on a much more extensive scale than has been the case in the past. Question resolved in the affirmative. 76 21:56:00 House adjourned at9.56 p.m. 76 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 76 76 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory asked the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice - Whether he has seen a report in a. Western Australian newspaper of the 17th February last of an interview with Dr. Cyril Bryan, Medical Assessor of Pensions in England, in which he states that it was accepted as a principle in England that the passing of a man as medically fit for war service automatically proved his' health to be perfect at the time? If this is so, will the Minister see that similar conditions will prevail here in regard to war pensions? 76 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr Marr - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - No. The information available to the Repatriation Commission as contained in the official instructions from the British Ministry of Pensions indicates that the statement as represented is inaccurate. I willsupply the honorable member with the details of these instructions. 76 76 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr Nelson asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice - Will he define exactly what constitutes a half-caste in the Northern Territory within the meaning of the ordinances relating to aboriginals ? 76 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr Perkins - The Aboriginals Ordinance 1918-1930 defines a "half-caste" to mean " any person who is the offspring of parents, one but not both of whom is an aboriginal, and includes any person one of whose parents is a half-caste ". 76 76 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr Blakeley y asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Will he furnish a statement showing the amount of the Australian floating debt in London at the end of each month since June, 1931, to the latest date available, and the interest paid thereon? 76 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - The Australian floating debt in London shows the following variations since the 30th June, 1931: - Interest paid thereon from the 1st July, 1931, to the 28th February, 1933, totals £2,531,119. 76 76 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons s. - On the 12th October, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) asked me the following questions, upon notice: - What was the cost to the Commonwealth of the recent visit overseas of the honorable the Attorney-General? What was the individual cost of all personswho were associated with the delegation, and whose expenses were paid by the Commonwealth ? The following answer to the honorable member's questions can now be supplied : - The expenditure in respect of the Disarmament Conference, which has been brought to account in Australia and which includes expenditure up to the end of November in London, amounts to £5,163. It is impossible to allocate all expenditure to individuals, but an apportionment of cost has been made as follows: - The miscellaneous expenditure includes cost of office accommodation at Geneva, clerical assistance, cables, &c, which cannot be divided amongst individuals. The above expenses of the Minister for External Affairs also include amounts attributable to the hearing of an appeal to the Privy Council in the case of the Attorney-General for New South Wales and others versus Trethowan (the New South Wales Legislative Council case), in which the Minister appeared as Attorney-General, a Special Assembly of the League of Nations, and the Reparations Conference at Lausanne, which the Minister also attended.