1933-10-12 13 1 4 REPS 3456 0 House of Representatives. 1933-10-12 Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. H. Mackay) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 3456 Miscellaneous 3456 3456 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have to inform the House that I have this day issued the writ in connexion with the by-election for the electoral division ofFlinders, and that the dates fixedwere those that I announced yesterday. 3457 Questions 3457 3457 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Will the Prime Minister secure from the Commonwealth's representative in Canada a report upon the recent decision of the Canadian farmers' organization in favour of the nationalization of banking and currency reform, so that the House may be fully informed with respect to the matter? 3457 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I shall give consideration to the honorable member's request. 3457 3457 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Is it the intention of the Minister for Commerce to convene a conference of the fruit-growers of Australia, or, if possible, to make better arrangements than have hitherto prevailed for the marketing of fresh fruits exported from Australia during the coming season? 3457 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - As the result of representations by the various fruit growing associations, this question is receiving attention. 3457 3457 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to a statement from Washington which appeal's in to-day's press, that it is understood that, on account of the incapacity of Great Britain to meet its payments to the United States of America, it is proposed to make an offer of 10 per cent, of the total debt, or, failing that, the payment of 1,000,000,000 dollars, equal to one quarter of the total debt? Will the right honorable gentleman also inform the House whether the Government had any knowledge of the probable acceptance of such a proposal when the budget was framed without provision for payments on account of war debts this year? 3457 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The Government has no official knowledge of such an offer having been made, and cannot comment on what is merely a newspaper statement. 3457 3457 KOC 0 0 HAWKER, Charles Mr HAWKER - Has the attention of the Minister for Commerce been directed to the following statement in regard to the international wheat agreement, which appeared in the press of Monday over his name: - Australia is free to export up to 142,000,000 bushels of the 1933-34 crop, provided that not more than 103,000,000 bushels is shipped before the 1st August. In addition to this, the agreement provides that 150,000.000 bushels may be shipped between the 1st August, 1934, and the 31st July, 1935. Does that statement imply that the total quantity permitted to be exported from Australia for the two years is 292,000,000 bushels, or only 255,000,000 bushels, as was understood earlier? 3457 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - I can best answer the question by drawing attention to the fact that, when originally drafted, the agreement contemplated- that Australia should have the right to export 255,000,000 bushels during the two years, distributed as to 142,000,000 bushels for the first year and 113,000,000 bushels for the second year. This allotment to Australia was based on an anticipated world demand of 1,550,000,000 bushels for the two years. Subsequent to that estimate having been made, however, it was found that the conditions in European countries were so favorable to production that the world demand had declined from 1,550,000,000 bushels to 1,312,000,000 bushels, and it was necessary to recast the export quotas. It was suggested that all the participating exporting countries should accept a pro rata reduction of their original allotments. As this would have meant a substantial reduction of Australia's quota of 255,000,000 'bushels for the two years, this country dissented from participation in any further restriction, and as a result was able to maintain its quota at 255,000,000 bushels for the two years. But it agreed not to ship, before the 31st July. 1934, more than. 105,000,000 bushels of the 142,000,000 .bushels which constituted its export quota from the 1933-34 crop. The specific answer to the honorable member's question is, that the total amount permitted to be exported from Australia during the two years is 255,000,000 bushels, made up as follows: 105,000,000 bushels before the 31st July, 1934, and 150,000,000 bushels during the ensuing year. 3458 3458 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - Can the Prime Minister state whether the figures in the budget in connexion with the prices of export products refer to the prices in Sydney or London or at country railway sidings? 3458 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If the honorable member will place his question on the notice paper, I shall obtain the information from the departments by whom the figures were supplied. 3458 3458 JVR 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr NAIRN - Will the Prime Minister say whether it is intended to proceed this session with the Bankruptcy Bill? 3458 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - It is the intention of the Government to proceed with that measure this session. 3458 3458 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - In connexion with the investigations at present being made by the Commonwealth Grants Commission, will the Prime Minister afford to members of the State Public Service of South Australia the opportunity to tender evidence? So far, the attitude adopted towards their request to do so has not given them satisfaction. 3458 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The Government will not interfere with the conduct of the commission's affairs. The commission is free to take evidence wherever it desires. It will, of course, have presented to it the case for each State by the Government of that State, but if it desires to obtain outside evidence it is free to do so. It does not seem to me that this is an instance in which the Commonwealth Government should direct the commission as to the channels through which it should obtain its information. 3458 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - But cannot a body of public servants such as that in South Australia claim the right to be heard? 3458 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I think that if that body made application to the commission, it would be heard; but the Commonwealth Government cannot step in and direct the commission to hear evidence of any particular body or any particular person. The commission must be left free to obtain its evidence where it will. I understand that the case which is being presented by the State Government will deal with the position of public servants. 3458 3458 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr ABBOTT -Will Parliament have an opportunity at an early date to discuss the Government's proposals for the development of the Northern Territory? 3458 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Various proposals are at present being considered by a subcommittee of Cabinet, and when a definite proposition has been evolved, it will be laid before Parliament. I can give no assurance, however, that this will be done at an early date. 3458 3458 KZX FLP; ALP from 1936 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON - Will the Prime Minister urge upon the Commonwealth Bank Board the need for reducing the rate of interest charged by the bank to persons who have borrowed money for the purpose of buying their own homes? Will he also urge upon the board that the bank, which is making a substantial profit at the present time, should charge not more than 3 per cent. to workers on money borrowed for the purpose of purchasing homes? 3458 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The Commonwealth Bank Board is free to manage its own affairs, and the Commonwealth Government will not dictate to it regarding the rate of interest to be charged by the bank, nor attempt to dictate to it regarding the management of the bank in general. The Government, however, is doing everything it can to reduce taxation so that the general trading banks will be in a position to reduce their interest charges, and in this direction the Commonwealth Bank has on all occasions set an example to the other banks. 3458 3458 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - Will the Minister for Commerce state whether any trade commissioners have yet been appointed to Eastern countries in accordance with the decision reached by the Government some time ago? If no appointments have yet been made, will the Minister state what qualifications the Government considers applicants should have to enable them adequately to represent Australia? 3459 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The Government has decided to appoint trade commissioners at Batavia, and Hong Kong in the East, but no appointments have been made. I have received many applications for the positions, and I am prepared to continue to receive others from persons who consider themselves fitted for the posts. It would be inappropriate for me, in answer to a question without notice, to set out the qualifications in detail which the Government expects of the appointees, but, if the honorable member is interested, I shall be pleased to supply him personally with the information at a later date. I might add that no appointments will be made until the necessary enabling legislation has been passed by Parliament. 3459 3459 KK7 0 0 JENNINGS, John Mr JENNINGS - In view of the public concern in Sydney following another proposal to dump garbage outside of Sydney Heads, and having regard to the danger to public health generally, particularly the health of hundreds of thousands of surfers on the ocean beaches, the nuisance caused by and the expense involved in the practice, and the damage to the fishing industry in the vicinity, will the Minister for Commerce consider the position with a view to enlarging the prohibited area as defined by the Beaches Protection Act, or of making any regulations or legislative amendments considered necessary by local municipal councils? 3459 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The purpose of the legislation to which the honorable member has referred was to prevent the spoliation of beaches in and around the metropolitan area of Sydney. If any evidence can be adduced that the legislation has failed to achieve its objective, consideration will be given to proposals for extending its operation. 3459 3459 KMZ 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr MARTENS - Can the Prime Minister state whether the committee recently appointed to investigate certain aspects of the tobacco industry in North Queensland has yet submitted its report, and, if so, when the report will be available? 3459 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The report may be expected within a few days, and as soon as the Government has had an opportunity to consider it, it will be made available to honorable members. 3459 3459 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - Has the Government yet appointed a commission to deal with electoral redistribution which has become necessary as the result of the recent census? If the appointment has not yet been made, when may we expect it? 3459 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - No appointment has yet been made, nor can one be made until the count is completed. An interim count has been made, but the final figures must be available before the commission can operate. The personnel of the commission has been practically defined in the act itself. 3459 3459 JTB 0 0 MCNICOLL, Walter Mr MCNICOLL - Would it be possible for the supplementary explanation in connexion with the defence estimates to be issued to honorable members some time before the Estimates themselves come up for discussion so that they may be able to give it the consideration it deserves? 3459 JWT UAP 1 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - I hope to be able to make it available very early next week. I have just received the proof from the printer. 3459 3459 KPN 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Hugh Mr MCCLELLAND - Will the Prime Minister state what is the amount of relief afforded Australia each year as a result of the suspension of payments on the war debt which Australia owes to Great Britain and what arrangements, if any, are being made to meet these payments should they be demanded in the future? 3459 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The answer to the honorable member's question is contained in the reply furnished to-day to a question on notice asked by the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory). 3459 3459 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Has the Government under consideration a proposal relating to the interchange of concessions to the Matson Shipping Line in exchange for similar concessions for Australian shiping in American waters, and if so, will the House be given an opportunity to discuss the matter before it is finalized? 3460 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The position is at present in too nebulous a condition to be submitted to the House. The Government has made certain approaches to the New Zealand Government suggesting collaboration and consultation in a matter of interest to the two dominions. 3460 3460 KYX 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr RILEY - Do the Commonwealth and State Governments propose to take action to make it compulsory for wireless to be installed on intra-state vessels? 3460 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The report of the committee which was appointed to investigate this matter has been received. The committee during its investigations received a request from the Premiers of Victoria and New South Wales that its inquiries should be widened to include intra-state shipping as well as interstate shipping and that request was complied with. The report dealing with intrastate shipping has been sent to the respective Premiers. The general report contains certain recommendations in connexion with the installation of wireless on the smaller class of vessels which are not covered by the Navigation Act and is now receiving the attention of Cabinet. 3460 3460 KYX 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr RILEY - I ask the Postmaster-General whether telephone subscribers can expect any relief in respect of telephone rentals and other charges during the next month or so? 3460 KXQ UAP 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - The honorable member's question relates to a matter of policy. But the facts are that the telephone charges to-day are as low as they can be made in view of the conditions of this country and the necessity for providing telephone communication over long distances in sparselypeopled areas. The telephone system of Australia is efficient, and the charges are as low as those in any other part of the world. Under existing conditions, while there may be some readjustment, it is impossible at this stage to make any reduction of those charges. 3460 Papers The following papers were presented: - Tariff Board - Report and Recommendation - Wire letting from the United Kingdom. Ordered to be printed. Railways Act - Report on Commonwealth Railways Operations, for year ended 30th June, 1933. Seat of Government Acceptance Act and Seat of Government (Administration) Act - Ordinances of 1933 - No. 21 - Pharmacy. No. 22 - Dentists Registration. No. 23 - Medical Practitioners Registration. 3460 Bill Motion (by Mr. White) agreed to - That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to amend the Spirits Act 1932. 3460 Motion Second Reading Debate resumed from the 6th October, (vide page 3402), on motion by Mr. Lyons - That the bill be now read a second time. 3460 F4U Capricornia 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE .- As the Government evidently intends to dispose of this measure before resuming the debate on the budget, the Opposition desires to take the earliest opportunity to test the House on the question of the restoration of the percentage reductions in Public Service salaries, wages, pensions, and social services. I therefore move - That all the words after " That " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - "the bill be withdrawn and re-drafted to provide for the complete restoration of the percentage reductions in Public Service salaries, wages, pensions and social services. In this discussion I should like to deal with other matters, such as the failure of the Government to do something practical for the unemployed and the wheatgrowers ; but as those matters do not come within the ambit of this measure, I shall reserve my remarks on them for a future occasion. I know that criticism of the budget and the consequential legislation is most unpopular in certain quarters, because the public press of this country has specially endeavoured to create the impression that there is a great deal of merit in the budget proposals; but now that the public has had an opportunity to study the budget and the consequential legislation, and to see them in their true perspective, the critics of the budget are growing daily in number. The Government is fortunate that it was not in office at the height of the depression, and also fortunate in that its tenure of office is coincident with some improvement in our economic life, for which the last Government's policy was largely responsible. The Government, in making the disbursements outlined in the bill is deserving of severe criticism, pandering, as it is, to the wealthy sections of the community, and conferring but niggardly concessions upon the poorer sections. Much has been said of the remission of federal land tax, which, it has been stated, will be a great boon to the struggling farmers of this country. The rich city land-owners will certainly obtain substantial relief under this measure because two-thirds of the federal land tax is paid by them. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), in his second-reading speech, said that, in addition to the reduction of the land tax by 33½ per cent. last year, the present bill provided for a reduction of the former rates to 50 per cent., and that the relief given to federal land taxpayers on the 1933-34 assessments would amount to £400,000. That relief is in addition to the concession of £700,000 which was given in the previous budget presented by this Government. As the federal land tax was not increased under the financial emergency legislation of 1931, there is no justification for this further remission, particularly while the claims of the poorer sections of the community - the old-age and invalid pensioners, war pensioners, and the lower paid public servants - have been disregarded. As no person pays federal land tax unless the unimproved value of his land exceeds £5,000, the proposed remissions will not benefit the smaller landowners, although the Prime Minister has stated that they will receive substantial relief and will, in turn, be able to pass on some of their benefits to the workers in the community. We know that a number of reductions of income taxation will be made us a result of the budget. The lowering of the company tax from ls. 4.8d. to ls. in the £1 will give a concession amounting to £585,000. A reduction has also been made to the extent of 15 per cent, in the rate of tax on incomes derived from personal exertion, and that will mean a concession amounting to £200,000. There is also to be a reduction of from 10 per cent, to 5 per cent, of the special tax on income from property, and that will give away £1,100,000. The reduction of the assessment rate on shipping owned abroad will give a sop to shipping interests worth £25,000. On principle this party is opposed to such remissions until complete restoration has been made of the cuts in pensions, Public Service salaries and social services. We have been assured that the alleged benefits from the proposed relief from taxation will be passed on to the workers, and that everybody will share in the resultant prosperity; but although members of the Government have expressed pious hopes in this House I have been listening in vain for authentic statements from representatives of big trading concerns outside. With one or two exceptions we have heard nothing on that point. The banks have been silent on the matter. The only banker who has spoken is, 1 think, the representative of the Queensland National Bank, who is candid enough to say that the relief from taxation will enable his bank to reduce the rate of interest by only one-twelf th of 1 per cent. ! What a tremendous relief that will give to the unemployed, and to the struggling farmers who wish to borrow money to carry out necessary improvements on their land, such as the provision of sub-artesian bores, the fencing of their properties, and ring-barking operations on scrub lands. The " down-trodden " banking interests, as a result of this Government's policy, may be able to reduce the- rate of interest, by one-twelfth of 1 per cent. ! 1 can imagine how eloquent the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) would become if, as a member of the Opposition, he were discussing the price of tea. He had a good deal to say when on this side of the House about the necessity to compel manufacturers and others to pass on to the consumers the benefit of any concessions which they obtain. Is the reduction of the duty on tea to be passed on to the consumers, or will the Government allow the big tea companies to retain the full benefit of it? Definite pronouncements have been made by representatives of these companies that they "will not be able to pass on the reduction. Obviously, then, there is nothing in the talk about the reduction of duties resulting in a reduction of the cost of living, and an increase of the purchasing power of the masses. "We were also informed that the duty of 4d. per lb. on raw rubber placed a heavy burden on motorists and every other section which uses the products of the big rubber companies of Australia. Although the present concession is worth £225,000 te those companies, the excuse has already been made that they will not be able to pass the benefit on to the users of motor tyres and other rubber goods. I should like to know what steps the Government intends to take to force those companies to pass on the relief given. Much has been said about the necessity to reduce the sales tax, which, of course, is a most objectionable impost; but the large trading companies have announced that the reduction of the tax by 1 per cent, is equivalent to only 1¼d. on purchases amounting to 10s., and is therefore too small to permit of a reduction of retail prices. Apparently, only the big traders will benefit by the reduction. So much for all' the talk that the benefits will be passed on to the consumers of Australia. A number of amendments of the law relating to invalid and old-age pensions are proposed. The Prime Minister informed us that provision was made in the bill for the restoration of the amount of pension which was taken off under the Financial Emergency Act 1932. As the reductions then made were not part of the rehabilitation plan, they should not have been made. The present Government acted very unfairly in that matter. In addition to the all-round cuts embodied in the Premiers' plan of 1931, the pensioners and the public servants of the Commonwealth were singled out for a further reduction last year to enable this Government to remit taxation for the year 1932-33 to the tune of £2,100,000, largely for the benefit of wealthy interests that are the backbone of the Government's support outside Parliament. A similar sum to that taken from the pensioners in 1932-33 was handed back to wealthy land-holders - chiefly big city owners, who got two-thirds of it. Those further cuts were made when the Government knew that it had a surplus for the year of £1,314,000. It would not entertain the suggestion made to it that before the further reductions were effected, overdraft rates and interest rates on mortgages should be further reduced, and that bondholders should make an additional sacrifice, but singled out the invalid and old-age pensioners and the public servants. Last year, when the budget was before Parliament, the Opposition accused Ministers of deliberately underestimating the revenue, in order to justify a further gruel cut in public service salaries and pensions. The Government denied that it would be a party to such an action, but its aim, undoubtedly, was to bring down the living standards of invalid and old-age pensioners and its own servants, so that it could subsequently play the part of Father Christmas, and say to them, "Look what we have given back to you ". Circumstances were altogether different when this country was faced with a deficit of £10,000,000, and a prospective deficit in the following year of £20,000,000, compared with the time when we had a surplus of £1,314,000 followed by a surplus in the next financial year of £3,500,000. Although the Government budgeted for a deficit last year, the revenue exceeded the estimate by £7,000,000. Receipts from customs and excise duties alone amounted to £3,090,000 more than was expected, showing that there was no justification for the impost placed by the present Government in 1932 on that section of -the community for whom the Opposition hopes to obtain relief, if my amendment is accepted. We are now told by the Prime Minister that, subject to certain restrictions, invalid and old-age pensions are to rise or fall according to the rise or fall in the retail index number for food and groceries. That sounds very well, but no doubt it will be very bewildering to a large number of invalid and old-age pensioners, some of whom will he induced by the tory and Nationalist press to look at this bunch of carrots dangling before them, and think that something is to be done for them. The fact is, however, that the pensioners are being hoodwinked. The intention of the Government, doubtless, is to ensure that the cut in pensions shall stand for many years; it has no intention to restore pensions to the former level of 20s. per week. Even in the darkest hours of depression, the Scullin Government refused to make a cut of 20 per cent, in pensions; a cut of only 12i per cent, was imposed. The pension rate was reduced by 2s. 6d. a week at a time when the Government was facing a certain deficit of £10,000,000, and a probable deficit of £20,000,000. The desire of the Scullin Government was to provide a pension with as great purchasing power as the pension of £1 had before there was any fall in the cost of living; and at no time did it even suggest that the new amount at which it was fixing the pension was to be the basis on which pensions would be calculated for the future. The cut was purely of an emergency character, and the intention was to restore the rate to its old level as soon as possible. The previous Government not only made a cut in pensions, which was less than equivalent to the fall in the cost of living, but it also determined that workers on the basic wage in the Public Service should receive no cut in real wages. Those principles were preserved by the Scullin Government, but they have been definitely violated by this Government. Instead of the real basic wage being preserved, we find that to-day 900 adult Commonwealth public servants who are entitled to the adult basic wage under an award of the Public Service Arbitrator are receiving less than the basic wage. Many of these people are finding it well nigh impossible to carry on with the meagre income that they are receiving, and are in much more urgent need of assistance than are the big companies and the wealthy land-owners which are receiving substantial relief under this measure. The Labour party stands definitely for the restoration of invalid and old-age pensions to £1 a week, and for the removal of the objectionable amendments made to our pensions legislation last year respecting the property of pensioners. I hope that the Prime Minister will, even at this late hour, save honorable members from the painful necessity of voting on this issue by himself moving amendments of the nature desired by the Opposition. I had hoped that a statement to that effect would have been made before this debate occurred, and that we should, at this stage of the consideration of the bill, bc assured that the objectionable features in the 1932 amendments of the pensions law would be removed. I was, therefore, surprised that the Prime Minister, while admitting that the Government had a large sum of money with which to grant relief to various sections of the people, chiefly the wealthy section, should have made use of the following words: - Careful consideration has been given by the Government to the effect of the recent property provisions of the Pensions Act, with the object of ascertaining whether they w«re operating harshly and called for amendment. The conclusion arrived at was that the law was based on sound principles. I presume that the right honorable gentleman's sentiments were endorsed by his party. The cruel policy of assigning pensioners' homes and of claiming, as a first charge against the pensioners' property, the amount paid in pension since the 12th October, 1932, is to be continued, while remissions of taxation to the extent of £7,500,000 are to be made to wealthy friends of the Government. We are told that this is sound policy; but what about the court prosecutions of old-age pensioners that are taking place to-day in the different States? For the first time in their long lives, many pensioners are being forced to face police magistrates on charges that at some time, years ago, they made misleading statements in their claims for pensions. By these tactics the Government hopes to frighten a number of timid, nervous and highly-strung old people from claiming the pension. The holding of this spectre of court procedure before them is, of course, intended to have that effect. The Prime Minister, in the course of his speech, pointed proudly to the fact that, by reason of the amendments made in the pensions law last year,. 12,074 persons had been frightened intosurrendering their pensions, and 13,250 fewer applications had been made for pensions this year than last year. I hope, however, that in committee the Government will listen to representations by honorable members of all parties for the removal of a number of anomalies in the pensions act. Consi deration should certainly be given to such cases as that referred to in a telegram which reached me only to-day, io the effect that persons already in institutions who apply for pensions are granted an allowance, but are not granted anything for -their maintenance. Some such cases are in the Rockhampton Benevolent Home. As many of these institutions are maintaining their operations under great difficulty, such an anomaly, surely, demands the attention of the Government. I wish to refer, also, to the subject of war pensions. The Prime Minister has explained that concessions to the value of £248,000 are to he made to war pensioners in certain circumstances. These concessions are all right as far as they go, but I submit that, before remissions of taxation which, taking into account those proposed in this budget and those made last financial year, will amount to £9,500,000, war pensions, and also invalid and old-age pensions and Public Service salaries, should have been fully restored to their former level. There was surely no need, for instance, to grant concessions of taxation in respect of shipping owned abroad, for no extra taxation was imposed on these interests under the financial emergency legislation. Yet the Government intends to grant such concessions, amounting to £25,000, while it continues to penalize pensioners and public servants in Australia. I invite honorable members to contrast the Government's treatment of pensioners and public servants with that of the wealthy land-owners of Australia, who hold property of an unimproved value of over £5,000, and to remember, in doing so, that the federal land tax was not increased during the emergency period. Remissions of land tax were made over a two-year period amounting to £1,100,000. Notwithstanding that this item escaped any additional impost during the financial crisis, it is now being cut by one-half. Two-thirds of the amount of the cut is at present being paid by city land-owners. Public servants had to surrender £S last year for the benefit of this allegedly poor section of the community. That was, of course, in addition, to the reduction they suffered under the provisions of the Premiers plan. Under the Scullin Government's policy, there would have been no further wage reduction imposed on public servants who had suffered a cut exceeding the deduction that would ordinarily have applied under the system of cost-of-living adjustment operating in the Public Service. Moreover, the cut of £8 would not have been imposed last year on the great majority of public servants. It is true that this Government is restoring the £8 that was taken last year under this heading, but the deduction should not have been made in the vast majority of instances. The making of it was immoral and unfair. The Scullin Government's policy was that no further cost-of-living reductions would -be applied until after the special cut had been restored. This Government is now providing for a restoration of 2£ per cent., on a flat rate, of the special cut which was made on a sliding scale of from 3 per cent, to 25 per cent. This will mean that an officer on a salary of £300 a year will receive £7 10s. In other words, in' twelve months' time he will still be worse off by 10s. than if he had not lost the £8 cost of living allowance last year. Whereas the original emergency cut in the Public Service varied from 3 per cent, to 25 per cent., it will now vary from \ to 22-J per cent. In the darkest hours of Australia's financial history the public servants of this country accepted in a good spirit the inevitable cuts that were necessary under the Financial Emergency Act. They believed that the assurances given by the representatives of the party now in office would be honoured, and that the members of all political parties regarded the reductions as of a temporary nature. In April, 1931, the Commonwealth public servants voluntarily accepted a reduction in the cost-of-living allowance three months before the due date, because they realized that it was their duty to share in the sacrifices then being made. The unjust reduction of salaries last year, due to a further reduction in the cost of living, cost them an additional £240,000. They rightly contend, now, that the Government is in' a position to restore all the emergency cuts, and that they are entitled to a complete restoration before remissions are made in federal land taxation, which was not imposed as an emergency measure, and which amounts to £1,100,000 over a period of two years. If the financial emergency reductions are restored, adult Commonwealth public servants will still be losing £42 per annum owing to the annual adjustment necessitated by a variation in the cost of living figures. I say unhesitatingly that public servants' salaries, pensions and social services should be restored before any relief is given to the wealthy friends of the Government. "When the Financial Emergency Bill was under discussion in this chamber, the present Prime Minister, who was then the Leader of the Opposition, said that the cut would be restored, so far as his party was concerned; at the first opportunity. One would have believed that an effort to give effect to his promise would have been made by the right honorable gentleman as soon as his Government assumed office; but he, and those with whom he is associated, have sought by devious means to rob the public servants of one concession after another. Attacks have also been made upon arbitration court awards. Public servants have been compelled to send their representatives to appear before the Public Service Arbitrator to fight for a retention of the conditions for which they struggled' so strenuously in previous years. The Government has been successful to a degree in whittling away many of the privileges they previously enjoyed. For some time the salaries paid to junior public servants have been lower than the normal rate, and travelling allowances and travelling time have been seriously interfered with. Public servants have been compelled to yield substantial concessions over and above their salary cuts because the arbitration court awards have gone against them. When the present Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition, he gave a definite assurance that the reductions in pensions and social services and public servants' salaries would be restored as soon as practicable. That opportunity was afforded to him when the budget was being framed. Instead of honouring his promise he remitted taxation to the extent of £7,500,000. In view of the improved state of the finances, I believe that all those sections mentioned in the amendment I have moved have a right to expect complete restoration. When the Financial Emergency Bill was under consideration in committee on the 9th July, 1931, the Prime Minister, who was then Leader of the Opposition, said - I appeal to the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) not to persist in his amendment, because he lias the assurance of the Treasurer, on behalf of the Government, that this is merely an emergency measure. Every honorable member on the Opposition side has looked upon it in that light. I was one of the first to suggest general reduction of expenditure, because I knew that it was inevitable. Were it possible to avoid those cuts I would have done all in my power to prevent them. Not one member on this side of the House supports with pleasure the reductions of wages and pensions, and, so far as we are concerned, the reduction will not operate longer than is necessary for the restoration of financial stability. At the earliest possible moment honorable member") on this side will stand behind any proposal for the restoration of the wages and conditions that 'have been enjoyed by the public servants up to the present time. Possibly, in three years the circumstances of the Commonwealth will have so improved that the old conditions can be restored. I hope that the right honorable gentleman will honour that promise and that he and those behind him will support my amendment. At that time the present Prime Minister and the members of his party viewed the reductions merely as a contributory and temporary method of achieving budgetary equilibrium. The statement, however, was good enough on the eve of an election, and was made with the object of securing the votes of a large number of public servants. In consequence of the suspension of the war debt payments to Great Britain, the budget was balanced within one year; but notwithstanding that result, and the severity of the impositions under the financial emergency legislation, the Government actually took a further £240,000 from public servants' salaries during the year 1932-33, which wa3 a distinct and inexcusable departure from the Premiers plan. There was no more justification for the additional imposition mentioned than there was for a further reduction of interest rates on internal loans. The Government singled out public servants and invalid and old-age pensioners at a time when it had a surplus of £1,300,000, and had received unexpected relief through the suspension of war debt payments to Great Britain. On the one hand it confiscated a large portion of the earnings of its servants, and, on the other, granted substantial taxation concessions to vested interests in this country. The time has arrived for the Government to consider this matter on a non-party basis, and to do justice to those who have made more than a fair sacrifice. Fully 85 per cent, of the Commonwealth public servants are employed in the Postmaster-General's Department, which showed a profit of nearly £1,000,000 in the year before last, and £750,000 during the last financial year. In fixing rates and wages of employees engaged in industry the Arbitration Court takes into consideration the ability of the industry to pay the wages sought; but although the Postmaster-General's Department has made substantial profits during the last two years, the Government has declined to make a reasonable restoration of wages to the postal employees. The reductions imposed upon public servants in India and South Africa have already been restored. The Government speaks of partial restoration being made, but although the reductions in maternity allowance, public servants' salaries, and pensions during the last financial year amounted to £1,680,000, the restorations to be made this year on a yearly basis amount to only £1,513,000. Last year the Government granted to its friends remissions of taxation amounting to over £2,000,000, and it proposes to remit a further £7,500,000 of taxation this year. In order to satisfy the rapacity of the wealthy interests which support the Government, the Treasurer went so far as to budget for a deficit of £1,176,000 this year, and £3,672,000 next year, a total deficit of £4,848,000 for the two years. He decided practically to empty the Treasury because the friends of the Government, like cormorants, demanded what they regarded as their rights. The Government has adopted an extraordinary way of balancing its budget. In the light of these facts, what becomes of the protestations of the Prime Minister that his party stands for a balanced budget? In his policy speech of the 31st December, 1931, the right honorable gentleman said - Surely, the first contribution towards the restoration of confidence in the present and the future of Australia is to pay its way, and to live within its income. If we are returned to power, this is the road we will follow, and I am confident that when it is followed, and that when we demonstrate to our people and to the outside world that it is our intention to adhere to it, from that day on will be a better day for the Commonwealth ... If returned to office, we will therefore proceed by every means within our power to balance the budget - in other words, to show that we can live within our income. I say, unhesitatingly, that if Australia is to-day in a better position than was the case two years ago - if the ship of State is on a more even keel, and the adverse trade balance rectified to any extent - the credit is due to the Scullin Administration. Had the Government not decided to remit taxation amounting to £7,500,000 this year, it would be able to show a surplus of £5,476,000 at the end of the financial year; and if it completely restored wages, pensions, and other social services for the remainder of this year, it would still have a surplus of approximately £2,000,000 to assist the wheat-growers of this country, because £3,500,000 would have sufficed to restore all such cuts for the remainder of the year. My amendment does not propose something impracticable. It asks for nothing that is not capable of achievement, or which ought not to have been done by a government which professes to stand for political honesty and the fulfilment of a promise given in this House by the leader of the Nationalist party. The Labour party will not agree to the granting of concessions to the wealthy interests in this country until the contract entered into between this Parliament and the public servants and invalid, old-age, and war pensioners has been honoured by restoring to them the cuts to which they have been subjected. 3466 KIU Denison 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN .- The measure under consideration, which has been described as an omnibus bill, is the instrument for giving effect to the proposals of the Government as set out by the Treasurer (Mr. Lyons) in his budget speech. Australians, generally, regard this omnibus as one which can climb the bill from the trough of depression and bring this country to a higher level of prosperity than it has enjoyed for some time. In considering the proposals before us, we have to decide whether the relief proposed should be granted at all, and, if so, whether it should be granted now. The Opposition says that the proposed relief should not be granted, because certain other things have not been clone. The Country party, on the other hand, while welcoming the lightening of the load of taxation, is disappointed that that load has not been lightened more. I shall deal first with the attitude of the Opposition. The point made by its Leader (Mr. Scullin) yesterday, and repeated by the Deputy Leader (Mr Forde) to-day, was that before relief from taxation should be granted all cuts under the financial emergency legislation passed by this Parliament should be restored, notwithstanding that last night the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) showed that that would add £7,000,000 to the annual expenditure of the Commonwealth. 3467 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - -No. He included assistance to the wheat-growers in that amount. For the balance of this year the expenditure would be about £3,500,000. 3467 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition addressed himself to the big battalions, and to-day the Deputy Leader played a tune consisting of only four notes - vena, deena, dina, doh - representing respectively pensioners, public servants, wheat-farmers, and the unemployed. It was the same tune that his chief played. Dealing first with pensions, I find, from the latest figures available to me, that the amount spent on pensions of all kinds by the Commonwealth during the financial year 1932-33, was £17,725,089. Invalid and old-age pensioners numbered 249,167 ; and, in addition, there were 269,810 war pensioners. Compared with the taxation receipts of the Commonwealth for that year, the expenditure on invalid and old-age pensions was 19.18 per cent., and on war pensions 12.39 per cent!, a total of 31.57 per cent., or, roughly, one-third of the revenue received from taxation. Most Australians will, I think, regard that as a substantial proportion. It is all very well for Opposition leaders to talk in a loose and large way about restorations; they know that at the moment the Opposition has no 1.1221 responsibility for the finances of the country. Its sole concern is to appeal to those who, it says, have been " immorally " dealt with by the present Government. The proposals embodied in this measure include the granting of relief to pensioners to the extent of £900,000 per annum. That is in addition to the expenditure last year, which, as I have already stated, was 31.57 per cent, of the taxation receipts. I welcome these restorations, as I feel certain other honorable members do. It is significant that since the law in regard to pensions was altered last year, there has . been a substantial reduction of the number of persons drawing pensions. The reason is fairly obvious. It became patent to any observer that the pensions law was being abused, and collections were made which could not be justified. Consequently, the tightening up of the regulations has effected a useful purpose. It is to the benefit of those who arc genuinely dependent upon a pension that others who cannot be placed in that category should be erased from the pensions list. Personally, if it be practicable, I shall be glad to see the property qualification raised. As a private member, I have no information as to what such a procedure would cost the Government, and I have no proposals to submit in detail; 'bust I know that, if something along these lines were .practicable, it would 'be greatly acceptable to pensioners. I do not forget 'that the full purchasing power of a pension is greater now, when >the payment is 17s. 6d. a week, than was the case in 1925, .when a. pension of £1 a week was paid. When referring to the Public Service, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition used the word "suffered," declaring that public servants had "suffered" a reduction, because of a variation in the cost of living. It is the accepted practice of arbitration tribunals that reductions of salaries or pensions should be brought about because of increases in the purchasing power of those payments or vice versa. The fact that 17s. 6d. now purchases as much as could be .bought for 23s. 9d. in 1925, shows that, in reality, persons who are totally dependent on .their pensions and are in receipt of the full amount, are better off with the smaller sum than they were then with the larger amount. The cost-of-living adjustment, which the Government proposes shall be made when such a course is justified by rising prices, should reveal itself as a substantial improvement over other arrangements which have operated in the past. The matter of pensions is altogether too political, and it would be desirable to remove this social service from the arena of political warface. If it is right that wages should rise or fall in accordance with the cost-of-living index, it is also right that a similar procedure should apply to pensions. 3468 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Thebasis for the two payments is entirely different. 3468 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - In both cases the basis is the index figure covering the cost of food and groceries. 3468 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - What about clothing and shelter? 3468 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - Those factors do not come into the ordinary cost of living calculation. Regarding public servants, for whom honorable members opposite profess such great concern, I realize that, when the £8 was taken from them last year, there was much disappointment in the Service. I personally was not satisfied that it was awise thing to do; but it has to be remembered that the situation then was ominous. It is all very well to review the situation in retrospect; as it were, through the spectacles of to-day when the situation is better. The Government is responsible for the proper conduct of the finances of the country, and, at the time to which I refer, it had to be particularly cautious. It was condemned even for being cautious. It is a very easy thing for any one to criticize and condemn. The fact is that a party charged with the responsibility of government must display more caution than it need when in opposition. It is understood that lower paid public servants - and I presume that those on from £5 to £6 a week constitute the majority in the Service - will have their real wage fully restored ; that apart from the cost of living being reflected in their earnings, they will suffer no reduction of their real wages. Those on £6 a week will continue to lose a proportion, but they will have a restoration of at least 60 per cent. of the amount which was taken away from them. On the other hand, public servants on £1,000 a year will receive only a 20 per cent. restoration. That indicates to me that the concern of the Government is principally for lower paid officers.I should like to see something more done for the group of public servants who earn between £6 and £10 a week, but I must accept the proposals of the Government, because I believe that full consideration has been given to the claims of all grades and sections in the Service, and that if the improvement continues further restoration will be made. When I interjected yesterday during the speech of the Leader of the Opposition that a cutting of costs was desirable in industry, I was immediately subjected to a counter attack from the corner party. As soon as one mentions cutting costs, those honorable members can visualize nothing else but a cutting of wages. In an earlier period of this session, when the Leader of the Opposition moved the adjournment of the House to consider the desirability of reviewing the method of fixing the basic wage, I indicated my general attitude and made it plain that I deplored the continuing fall in wages. I am glad wages are gradually being restored to their former level. I should like public servants, especially those on the lower rungs, to receive more. Some of the higher paid public servants I should like to receive less, particularly one or two of them, and we shall hear more about that later. In these matters a government must take a comprehensive view of its finances. It is idle for public servants to compare themselves with employees in private industry, as the conditions are widely different. The fact that certain industries, Voluntarily or compulsorily, have restored the whole or part of the wage reductions that were made at the beginning of the depression, does not afford a convincing argument for the similar treatment of public servants. On the other hand, public servants are bound to make the comparisons which they do between themselves and those employed by large insurance and banking institutions, and it has been a constant source of complaint among the former that, while wage reductions were imposed upon them, officers in those financial institutions either did not suffer a wage cut or did so only to a minor degree. Public servants argue that those employees are engaged in similar work, and have similar responsibilities; and they contend that if the principle of equality of sacrifice is to be equitably carried out, bank employees and others should also have sustained proportionate wage reductions. I agree with that contention, and I think that it is to be regretted that the managements of those institutions did not do more in this direction as an act of public policy. Federal public servants are also quite entitled to compare themselves with State public servants, or vice versa. It is regrettable to me that while Commonwealth public servants are to receive a partial restoration of their wage reductions, that is not possible in some of the State services, particularly the Tasmanian service. 3469 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr Baker - The Forgan-Smith Government is making a restitution of wages to public servants in Queensland, and recommending automatic increases of salaries, which were suspended by the Moore Government. 3469 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - That makes it all - the worse. It is desirable that the sacrifice made by public servants throughout the Commonwealth should, as nearly as possible, be the same. It seems to me that it could be just as readily agreed, by consultation, to give public servants an even-handed restoration as it was agreed, by consultation, to make wage reductions. Otherwise, it is obvious that the Government with the greatest reserves can du more than its neighbours whose finances are less satisfactory. Recently public servants in the employ of the Government of Tasmania asked for the restoration of some portion of their cuts, but the Government intimated that because of the position of the finances the request could not be complied with. Naturally, its refusal leaves a sore spot in that State at least. If the position in Queensland is as the honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Baker) has stated, there will be dissatisfaction in that and other States because of the inequality of treatment. In the general interest of Australia it is desirable that there should be complete harmony in the public services of the Commonwealth and all States. I notice that the Government proposes to restore the cuts made in the salaries of judges, of whom there is a limited number in the federal jurisdiction. The sum involved is not very great. I feel, however, that the principle involved is of. the highest importance, and in keeping with what I have just said about equality of sacrifice as between Commonwealth and State public servants, and between public servants and employees of our large financial and other institutions, I believe that restitution of salary deductions should be made to our judges, as to other public servants. Having regard to what is 'being done over the Commonwealth Public Service field, the judges should not be singled out for what cannot be denied would be exceptional treatment. I believe, however, that the members of the federal judiciary who voluntarily made sacrifices of salary in the general interest a year or two ago will continue to give a lead to the rest of the community. 3469 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - Only some of them have done that. 3469 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - Although these cuts in social services and salaries were necessary at the time, they give rise to resentment, and the flames of discontent never lack plenty of enthusiastic farmers. The ideal which brought the present Government into power was the ideal of a united Australia. If that ideal is not pursued, there can be no doubt whatever that the strength of the Government will wane. Out of the common pool, as between the Commonwealth and the States', and having regard to all the circumstances, there should be applied in. these times the principle of share and share alike as much as possible. This criticism touches only one phase of the budget, and does not affect my general support of the Government's proposals so far as the second reading is concerned. The bill now before the House giving legislative effect to the policy contained in tha budget does not profess to give the same percentage of relief in taxation as it does in Public Service cuts. It gives a greater percentage relief in regard to taxation, and, for this reason, it is open to criticism. But the Government's action is capable of explanation. The partial restoration of cuts made in salaries and social services is due to the relaxation of the economy measures rendered necessary a year or two ago, and it is being adopted because of the ability of the Commonwealth to pay on the higher scale. Taxation remissions, on the other hand, are made with a view to stimulating business and increasing the prospects of employment. The Leader of the Opposition complained yesterday that the Government was budgeting for a deficit; that it was throwing overboard the Premiers plan at the behest of its wealthy friends outside; that, in effect, it was adopting a financial position which business men would not tolerate in the conduct of their own businesses. I submit that, in this matter, the Government is taking an ordinary business risk in view of the increase that has taken place in the price of our exportable commodities and the improved condition of business generally. Its policy in this respect may be likened to that of an enterprising manufacturer who, when business prospects are improving, decides to manufacture ahead of market requirements, so as to build up stock and be in a position to take advantage of an anticipated increased demand. The criticism of the Leader of the Opposition, to my mind, falls down of its own weight. If the right honorable gentleman and his supporters had their way, they would continue the burden of taxation on industry, and spend borrowed millions on works which would be of as much value as holes in the ground. The business of sandshifting will never save Australia. 3470 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - There is not much of that being done by the States. 3470 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - A fair amount of it is being done in the Federal Capital Territory. 3470 KYX 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr Riley - The honorable member is indicting the .Government which he supports. 3470 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - At the appropriate time, I 3hall deal with the proposals which I have in mind. The total provision for new works to be financed from revenue this year is £1,625,000, and from loans, £810,000, making a total of approximately £2,435,000. To this we have to add expenditure by the States, with much of which I personally disagree. I particularly disapprove of the proposal to spend £2,500,000 in New South "Wales on city sewerage works. I realize, of course, that government expenditure on works must not come to a complete stop ; but I contend that even if some of the works contemplated are useful, and have an economic value, this aspect of government expenditure must always be watched carefully. Especially is this necessary if the works programme would involve, as it would under the proposal of the Leader of the Opposition, a continuing burden upon the taxpayers of the Commonwealth, because any immediate good which it might do to the workers directly employed would be definitely offset for years by the added burden of taxation which the general community would have to bear. The Leader of the Opposition has urged the adoption of a practical and extensive loan works programme. He has made a similar announcement on other occasions, but he has never indicated precisely what he regards as a practical pro- . gramme. 3470 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Yes, I have. 3470 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - Since he has never stated definitely how extensive this programme of works should be, I would describe him, without offence, I trust, as a generalissimo of generalizations. It is, I suppose, natural that the right honorable gentleman should express deep concern for the position of our wheat- . farmers, because they are a fairly numerous section of the community, and it is the business of the Leader of the Opposition and his supporters to appeal to the big battalions, knowing that God fights on their -side. Therefore, the right honorable gentleman has included them in his list. The bill before us and the budget proposals do not indicate that a bounty is to be provided for our wheat farmers, as was done out of loans by the Scullin Government, and last year out of revenue by the present Government. It is, however, a fact, that this Government is fully mindful of the position of our wheat farmers. It realizes that present world prices provide little, if any, margin for profit. It also realizes that the best way to help our wheat-growers in their present dilemma is to cut their costs, and to this end it has done two things. It has reduced taxation in various ways, and has lowered customs duties on commodities required by primary producers. I remind honorable members that the cutting of costs is not entirely ' and often not mainly a matter of cutting wages. Costs of production 'can be reduced by lower tariffs, lower taxation, and lower interest charges. The Government has kept, in mind all these factors in framing its budget. I turn now to the unemployment problem and the improved prospects for work following legislative sanction being given ro the Government's programme. As one step, the Government has reduced income tax upon incomes derived from personal exertion. The Leader of the Opposition contended that this tax should not have been reduced until certain other things had been done. I wonder how many honorable gentlemen opposite will really object to a reduction of their personal income tax. The reduction of the tax on incomes earned from personal exertion will leave more money in the hands of the private citizen to employ for his own and the public benefit in two directions, namely, by investment and by increased domestic expenditure. Every one knows that, due to the imposition of heavy taxation in the early years of the depression, domestic staffs and all those services which touch the home, were, of necessity, reduced. I suggest that one of the first effects of this relief in income tax will be more employment in that field. The bill also provides for a reduction of the companies tax from ls. 4.8d. to ls. Critics ask, "Is this proposal fair, and is it sound policy?" It is contended by some that the cut has only been restored to public servants to the extent of something more than 2i per cent., and that the effect of the Government's proposal will be to increase unduly the profits of shareholders. Actually, it will definitely and permanently lower costs of production, and through lower costs, will widen the demand and increase turnover.. That cannot be denied. The reduction of company income tax also should assist towards the earlier establishment of those new industries which we all hope to see functioning in this country before verylong. The intention of the Government concerning the extraction of oil from coal and shale are constantly the subject of question by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James). This reduction will help forward that enterprise. Other enterprises that are likely to 'benefit are the big newsprint industry in Tasmania, and the fisheries industry referred to the other night by the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Perkins). Every lessening of the load of taxation increases the prospect of the birth of new industries. Although the Opposition advocates theestablishment of new industries so thatwork may be provided for those who are unemployed, it would not make this reduction until all the other proposals it has put forward have been given effect. In that attitude, I believe, it is demonstrably unsound. Further, it would not remit at all the sales tax, which the Government proposes shall he remitted to an amount of £2,500,000.. If the policy of the Opposition were adopted, the wide range of commodities' upon which the sales tax is levied wonk remain at a higher level of cost to the consumer than will be the case when the proposed reductions have been made. It surely can be regarded as democratic to remove a tax which affects practically the whole of the people. Yet the Opposition would not interfere with it until all the privileges that have been withdrawn and the cuts that have been made had 'been fully restored. Let me revert for a moment to the question of company income tax. The federal public servants have an efficient propaganda organization which commands my admiration. An argument advanced in one of the many circulars issued by that ' organization among honorable members is that company taxation is society's dividend from industry. A more specious statement it would be hard to imagine. In opposition to it, I contend that the undue taxation of industry makes society's dividend increased unemployment. The United Country party, through its spokesman, the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), has stated that its idea of what should be the major item of policy for Australia at the moment is the reduction of taxation by £20,000,000. The £7,000,000 which the Government now proposes to lift, plus what was lifted last year, making a total of £9,000,000, fall far short of satisfying that party. To me, it is strange that the propaganda of this party on this question should be undeviatingly in line with that of the Sydney Bulletin. Yet its members are professed freetraders, while the Sydney Bulletin is a high protection organ. The reason, of course, is obvious; hut as it has no connexion with the bill, I shall refrain from mentioning it. The Government also proposes to give substantial relief to costs of production by a lowering of indirect taxation through the Customs Department. Thai the Country party is highly gratified at this, is proved by the fact that ir has rushed in to take all the credit. It always wants it both ways - every tax must be removed, and every assistance rendered. lt is traditional, of course, that the farmer is a grumbler. If crops are poor, he grumbles about the lack of rain ; and if rain falls and there are abundant crops, he complains that they take too much out of the ground. However, I am glad that there is a Country party in our political family. It takes all sorts of animals to make a zoo; and the smaller animals are always jealous oi the '-' Lyons". I have- no desire to delay the passage of this measure. I rose merely to accord it general approval. There are one or two points in it which are capable of improvement. But it marks a .milestone in the march of Australia from depression to better times, and I hope that it will be followed before long 'by a bold statement of government policy, which will convince the people that Australia has not yet reached the limits of its development. I trust that measures will be introduced which will be calculated to people the unpeopled parts of this continent, and enable it to absorb usefully from our own people and from the Homeland, those for whom one would think its vacant spaces are legitimately destined. 3472 C7E Cowper 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE .- I regret that the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Hutchin) should have disfigured a most thoughtful speech by cheap criticism and insinuations. His remarks were generally characterized by a sound line of reasoning, and possibly the future may cause him to modify his criticism in certain directions. The speech of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) left one with the impression that he considers that the depression has ended, that the darkest, hour has passed, and that the dawn is at hand. I would remind him that,- as .36 per cent, of the members of certain trade unions, and 26 per cent, of the total population of Australia, are out of work and unable to obtain it, we cannot do other than recognize that we are still passing through the night, and that whatever light there may be is merely moonlight, or, at the most, the twilight that precedes the dawn. "When one considers that the value of Australia's production declined from £447,000,000 in 1929 to £314,000,000 last year, and that it is only- out of the wealth produced by private citizens that the salaries of public servants can be paid, one must realize that the restoration of those salaries to the level at which they formerly stood - a stage that we all hope will some day be reached - is possible only as the result of an immediate revival of private industry. The experiments of all the governments of the world in piling on extra burdens and increasing unemployment during the last four years must make it patent to every one that improvement can be best effected by reducing the load on industry to the greatest possible extent and, especially, by reducing taxation. I had hoped that the different matters included in the hill would have been dealt with in separate measures. So many radically different matters are contained in it that, without making a hotchpotch of one's remarks, it is most difficult to deal adequately _ in a second-reading speech with the principles that underly its important features. The time limit imposed on speeches at the committee stage will preclude one from dealing satisfactorily with the general principles underlying the individual items. The one advantage of the continuance of this form of legislation is that it impresses on Parliament and the people the fact that, after all, the Premiers plan is still operating, and the different cuts represent concerted action. It surely points the way to what J said yesterday was necessary - combined action by the Commonwealth and the States in effecting alterations to the impositions that have been placed upon the people. I was glad to hear the honorable member for Denison say that he regarded it as altogether wrong that State public servants should not benefit in the same degree as federal public servants by the betterment of their conditions. It is undeniable that the question of pensions has been made a political football. The manner in which it is approached is not such as to commend itself, either to the pensioners themselves, or to the people of this country. I had hoped that it would have been removed as far as possible from the arena of politics, and that the sub-committee appointed by the Government eighteen months ago to investigate the whole matter would have recommended some form of national insurance that would have enabled pensions to be placed on a contributory basis. Under such a scheme, the anomalies which have resulted from the different alterations of the law, and 4 those that already existed, could have been wiped out, and a fresh start could have been made. Before there is a general alteration of the conditions governing either Public Service salaries or pensions, it is necessary to remove many of the incredibly harsh anomalies that exist. At the committee stage, I shall propose an amendment that, I trust, will be supported generally by honorable members, and 'be accepted by the Government. Its object will be to overcome the difficulty caused by the sections enacted last year in relation to the homes of pensioners. Its acceptance would not, I believe, have any appreciable influence upon the expenditure of the Government; on the other hand, it -would ease immediately a position that is causing intolerable hardship and considerable mental anguish to the thrifty old folk among the pensioners. I am pleased to note that there is to be some restoration of public servants' salaries. Apparently the Government is satisfied that this can be done. The Government "is the only body which is in a position to determine the extent to which that restoration can and ought to be made. I am sorry, however, that this is not part of a co-operative plan embracing both State and Federal activities; because the result will be merely to accenmate the position referred to by the honorable member for Denison - that is, the discrimination between those who are employed in mercantile offices and those who hold government positions. The bill also deals with, land tax and income tax. I consider that the time has arrived when we should consider not merely the reduction of the land tax, but its complete abolition. I commend the Government for the hold and courageous action in connexion with this matter that it has taken during the past year. A year ago the Government reduced the tax by 33-J per cent., and now it is proposed to reduce it by a further 16f per cent., making a total of 50 per cent. Later, the Country party intends to move for the total abolition of the tax. There can be only two reasons for keeping the tax in operation, namely, that it has some definite effect in bringing about the subdivision of large estates; or, on the other hand, that it is essential for revenue purposes. The Government has accumulated a surplus of £4,800,000, which it is not using for the reduction of taxation this year, and the amount expected from the land tax is no more than £1,200,000. Therefore, so far as revenue is concerned, the Government could very well abolish the tax immediately. It has been suggested that the tax was imposed for the purpose, either of forcing the subdivision of large estates, or of preventing the aggregation of such estates, thus crowding out settlement. But if that were the intention of the act - and some members of the Labour party assert that it was, while others deny it - there can be no doubt that today this is largely a revenue tax. Take, for instance, the section which deals with the aggregation in the hands of one owner of estates in different parts of the country. It is obvious that, if one holding is hundreds of miles away from another, the ownership of the two by the same person cannot be impeding land settlement. 3473 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - Surely the right honorable member knows that owners of city land pay most of the tax. 3474 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE - Then this must obviously be a revenue tax, and we should say so frankly. From time to time it has been stated, even by the Commissioner of Taxation, that land has been forced out of the taxing range as a result of the operation of the tax. For my part, however, I have never been impressed by that statement. The unimproved capital value of the land assessed for federal tax has increased during the ten years from 1917 to 1927 from £184,000,000 to £306,000,000, an increase of roughly 60 per cent. Moreover, in -spite of the alleged subdivision of property, the amount of revenue collected under the tax is twice as much now as when the tax was originally imposed. Further than that, the number of taxpayers has increased from 14,900 to 26,700.' If the tax is forcing land out of the taxable field, judging by these figures, it is doing so remarkably slowly. In my own State of New South Wales, out of the total area of alienated land, no less than. 41 per cent., or 31,907,000 acres, is subject to the tax. It would be difficult to imagine a more clumsy or inefficient instrument for the purpose of forcing the subdivision of land. Indeed, the Constitution itself is opposed to the principle of such a tax, because it is laid down in the Constitution that federal taxation shall not discriminate as between States or parts of States. The federal land tax at the present time presses so heavily on city land-owners that from them is collected 66.4 per cent, of the tax. No one will suggest that city allotments with a 30 ft. or 40 ft. frontage should be further subdivided. Therefore, the land tax has become a revenue instrument only, and should be considered in that light. The existence of this tax reduces the value of the security which land-owners may pledge when seeking accommodation from banks or from private money lenders, because the tax is a first charge on the land. During the four years of the depression, the tax has really been a capital levy, because there -have been no returns out of which to pay it. The land tax, together with' the super tax on income from property, is doing more than anything else to keep up private interest rates. I am glad that the Prime Minister, even though for 30 years he was an active member of the Labour party, no longer entertains any illusions on this subject, because he told a deputation recently that the only reason for the retention of the tax was that the Government needed the revenue. He added that, as soon as sufficient revenue was available from other sources, the land tax would be removed. I have shown that he is holding back more than enough of the accumulated surplus to do this now. Although the greatest part of the tax is paid by city land-holders, a very considerable portion is .provided by rural land-owners, and it constitutes a burden which presses very heavily upon them. Therefore, I hope that the Government will accept the amendment to be moved in committee for the immediate abolition of the tax. Last night, when I wa3 speaking on another matter, the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) interjected to say that when I was in office I did nothing to reduce taxation. I have uo desire to quote extensively from my own record, but I refer honorable members to the fifteenth report of the Commissioner for Taxation. On page 9, it is recorded that the super tax of 20 per cent, was removed, and a 10 per cent, reduction made in the land tax, and this was done during the period that Mr. Bruce and I were in charge of the Treasury. On page 10 of the report, it is set forth that the income tax rates were three times reduced by 10 per cent., while a further reduction of 12-J per cent, was made later, making a total reduction of 42J per cent, during the period of our administration. Concessions were also made to those with small incomes, the exemption rate being raised from £100 to £300. It was found that, as taxation rates were reduced, the revenue received by the Government remained fairly constant because of the stimulus given to industry. In some instances, it actually increased. Since the taxation increases of the last four years have been imposed we have reached a point when the law of diminishing returns has begun to operate. "When the rate on income derived from property was increased from 7i per cent, to 10 per cent., the amount of revenue received actually declined. The Government would find that, if it adopted a bold Polley of reducing the rate of taxation, the decline of revenue would not be anything like what it fears. Even the concessions which have been made during the last year have proved that. During the committee stage of this bill, the Country party intends to move for the total repeal of the land tax, for liberalizing the conditions under which the property of old-rage pensioners is charged with the amount of pension paid, and for the abolition of the super tax on property income. [Quorumformed.] 3475 KZF Barton 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE .- Though I cannot agree with the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) in all that he has advocated, I am in hearty agreement with him on his proposal to liberalize the conditions upon which old age pensions are paid. The relief of the pensioners should have been the first consideration of the Government. The property sections of the amending pensions legislation were designed to prevent well-to-do people, who declined to support their aged parents, inheriting the property of those parents after they had been a charge upon the State during their old age. These sections are sound in theory, but they have not worked out well in practice. It has been found that, in very few oases, have the parents of well-to-do persons .been in receipt of old-age pensions. Already, we are told, over 12,000 pensioners have surrendered their pensions rather than sign the form giving the department certain rights over their property. I have before me particulars dealing with a number of cases in my own electorate in which pensioners owning small properties have refused for sentimental reasons to sign the form to which' I have referred. In other cases, the pensioners have been mis-informed by the political opponents of the Government who have stated that the property of pensioners will be confiscated immediately they sign the form. As an illustration I shall quote the case of a humble dweller who has suffered because of the propaganda of the members of the Lang group. The house and land belonging to this person are valued at £450, and the encumbrances are assessed at £127, leaving a net valuation of £323. "When I asked this old lady why she re fused to sign the card in order to obtain a pension of 17s. '6d. a week, she said, " The Government will take my house from me". I told her that if she agreed to the Government's proposal she would receive a pension of 17 s. 6d. a week, and that if she cared to let part of the house at, say, Ss. a week, she would receive, in addition, a pension of 15s. a week, which would be an income of 23s. a week. This, lady, who is 61 years of age, is now receiving from her relatives 13s. a week, most of which is absorbed in the payment of rates and taxes and other things. She is dependent upon a relative for her food. It is a great pity that many pensioners of Australia have been misled by the members of the Lang group, who, in their efforts to canvass votes for the next election, have no regard for the comfort of pensioners. Although I have been accused of making, outside of this House, statements contrary to the Government's policy, let me say that I have had brought before me many cases of pensioners who have been unjustly deprived of their pensions because of the unfair rulings of the Deputy Commissioner for Pensions. I shall read two or three rulings of the Deputy Commissioner, and I fancy that honorable members, when they hear them, will scarcely credit that such extraordinary decisions could have been given by a. responsible officer. On the 3rd July the Deputy Commissioner sent me the following communication : - With reference to your pergonal representations concerning the abovenamed, I have to say that the pension in this case has not been reduced. With regard to the daughter, who is in receipt of an invalid pension, [ have to say that the rate, of the invalid pension is dependent to an extent on the circumstances of the parent. In this case the mother is a pensioner, and her circumstances, as far as income is concerned, are obviously not good. She, however, owns her own home, and is therefore able, without cost, to give the daughter free lodging. I pressed the department for a reconsideration of the case. In my letter I said - If this girl were living with a stranger and she was paying 12s Cd. a week, there would be no question as to whether the householder was contributing anything to her keep. I- submit that it is an unfair ruling to penalize the daughter by deducting 2s. Cd. per week from her pension. The following is the reply of the Deputy Commissioner . - With reference to your further representations concerning theabovenamed, I have to say that I am not prepared to vary my decision in this case. I must remind you, however, that all decisions given by me are subject to appeal to the Commissioner. I am certainly of the opinion that restrictions should be imposed upon the Commissioner in the interpretation of the pensions law, and that a formula should be laid down to enable just decisions to be given. I wrote to the Assistant Minister (Senator Massy-Greene) in connexion with this case, and his reply made me conscious for the first time that in the Pensions Department there is a Deputy Commissioner, an Acting Commissioner, an Assistant Commissioner and the Commissioner himself, and that if any honorable member disagrees with the ruling of' the Deputy Commissioner he has the privilege of climbing step by step until he reaches the Commissioner. I suggest to the Government that it might eliminate two or three of these intermediaries so as to place the department upon a business basis. The Assistant Minister, in his reply of the 28th September, stated - These cases were brought under my notice in your letter of 24th August, and I would like to state that the cases were not dealt with by the Commissioner, Acting Commissioner, or Assistant Commissioner, as variously stated by you, but were all dealt with by the. Deputy Commissioner, Sydney. In my letter I referred to the Commissioner and the Acting Commissioner. At that time I did not know that there were four officers holding some form of commissionership. 3476 KFW 0 0 GUY, James Allan Mr Guy - There is a Deputy Commissioner in each State. 3476 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - At Canberra, Mr. Metford is the Acting Commissioner, and Mr. Heathershaw is the Commissioner. I do not know who is the Assistant Commissioner. I honestly believe that the Assistant Minister(Mr. Guy) does not know much about the Invalid and Oldage Pensions Act. He lives in sunny Tasmania and does not come much into contact with cases of hardship. 3476 KFW 0 0 GUY, James Allan Mr Guy - I have a good deal to do with the administration of pensions. 3476 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The letter from the Assistant Minister (Senator MassyGreene) continues - The relative papers have been obtained from Sydney, and the Commissioner has reversed the decisions of the Deputy Commissioner and has restored the pension from the date of reduction in each case. Honorable members interjecting, 3476 10000 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - I must ask honorable members to refrain from interjecting while the honorable member for Barton is addressing the House. The continual interjections are most disorderly, and create a bad impression generally. 3476 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The following is a letter from the Deputy Commissioner, dated the 13th June last : - With reference to your personal representations concerning the above-named, I have to say, that the fact that the father is in permanent employment cannot be overlooked. Though his circumstances cannot be regarded as good, he is, without further cost to himself, able to provide pensioner with free lodging. Under the circumstances, she must be deemed to bo receiving some benefit from the parents, and the pension of 30s per fortnight is, therefore, the highest payable. In that case, the father was receiving a pension of £110 a year, out of which his payments were - Rent, £437s.; friendly society payments, £4 4s. ; insurance, £3 8s.; and sick and accident fund, £2, or a total of £52 19s. - leaving the old gentleman the sum of £57 13. with which to pay for food and clothes and for medical attention for his wife, who is afflicted with rheumatoid arthritis. In those circumstances, it is entirely unjust that the pension of the daughter should be reduced by 2s. 6d. It is simply absurd to reducepensions on the score that the pensioner is receiving free lodging. 3476 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - The honorable member voted for the Government's proposals when they were before the House. 3476 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - At that time I was under the impression that pensions would not be reduced to less than 17s. 6d. a week except in respect of those who had an income. Another instance is that of two old gentlemen, who own two properties. Although the Commonwealth Savings Bank in New South Wales has taken over the whole of the revenue received from those properties, the pensions of these two old gentlemen have been reduced. Many of the homes which the pensioners are compelled to transfer to the Commonwealth have been paid for largelyby their children; but, because the homes are in their parents' names, and because there is no record of any money being spent by their children on the homes, the Deputy Commissioner has refused to entertain any claim on their behalf. The Government, by restoring the pension to 17s. 6d., is acting wisely. I would support any proposal to delete from the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act the provision which enables a levy to be made upon the home at the death of the pensioner. I come now to the proposals outlined in the bill. The first problem confronting the Government is the provision of work for the unemployed. As I have stated to many public servants and members of trade organizations, the man who is working for a. dole of 13s. a week should be the first to receive the consideration of this Government. In many cases, he has children to rear, and he should take precedence over old-age pensioners, public servants, and all others. No doubt, he has been in the habit of receiving at least the basic wage, and often has been paid a high salary. I have known a medical man to do pick and shovel work. We must remit taxation that is bearing heavily on industry, if the unemployed are to be placed in work. I oppose the suggestion that we should abolish the land tax. I have yet to learn that a man who owns land, the unimproved value of which is over £5,000, is not entitled to meet this impost. As the leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) has said, this tax is not having the effect of breaking up large estates. The Government has been unwise in agreeing to a reduction of the tax, probably as a result of agitation by the Country party. 3477 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - The Government is fighting for the big city land-owners. 3477 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I do not accept that suggestion from the honorable member, because the Labour party, with which he was formerly associated, has always fought for city interests as opposed to those of the man on the land. The Government ought to prepare a synopsis of what the States are doing for country people. In the New South Wales Parliament, the Country party dominates governmental activities, and great concessions have been made to the primary producers. Ministers such as Messrs. Bruxner, Drummond, and Buttenshaw dominate the politics of New South Wales. 3477 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - They are in Parliament for that purpose. 3477 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - They are seeking, by virtue of their numbers, to obtain concessions at the expense of other interests that are in as great difficulties as are the primary producers. Mr.SPEAKER.- Order ! 3477 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The Commonwealth Government should be most, careful in making reductions of the land tax, and in giving concessions with regard to wheat. The experience of the last two grants made to wheat-growers should make Ministers cautious lest they may go too far in this direction. The wheat farmers of Australia ought to organize their industry on the lines followed by the sugar and butter industries. The Government should not spend loan money in order to recompense primary producers; if any money is to be paid to them, let it be given out of revenue, instead of placing a burden on posterity. I am prepared to give every possible assistance to the farmers so long as an unwarranted toll on the national finances is not made by the Government because of the value to it of the votes of members of the Country party. The sales tax is a most iniquitous impost which is bearing heavily upon small business men. I know of a case in which a man who could neither read nor write, and who was paying only 12s. or 13s. a month in sales tax, was fined £1 each, because in a certain month he did not furnish a return. This impost is wrong in its incidence, and should be reduced to at least 2½ per cent. I am not certain that the Federal Government is doing right in abolishing the federal entertainments tax. 3477 KCH 0 0 DENNIS, Samuel Mr Dennis - We should not rob the States of every field of taxation. 3477 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - If the States do exploit this field of taxation, they should devote the revenue received to the maintenance of their hospitals. If there is one particular impost that should be reduced immediately if is the sales tax, which is bearing most heavily upon small wage-earners. The rich man can look after himself, but the Government should study the interests of those on the lower rungs of the social ladder. My constituents hold me partly responsible for the programme outlined in the budget, and I regret that these proposals are placed before Parliament without honorable members having had a voice in their preparation. I had promised my constituents to take action in certain directions, but under the present system an opportunity to do so is denied me. Probably the French method of government, namely, the appointment of committees of members to assist Ministers, is better than the cabinet system in this country. If one wishes to interview a Minister, one has to discover first whether he is in Sydney, Melbourne or Canberra. Sydney business men are much harassed, at times, because of difficulties experienced in dealing with the customs and taxation departments. Recently a constituent of mine wished to have certain goods released by the customs authorities. For three weeks he had been seeking possession of his property, and finally, with my assistance, he succeeded. But when I came to Canberra I had to telephone to the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White), who was then in. Melbourne, and he referred me to Mr. Abbott, the Deputy Comptroller, who told me to communicate with Mr. Mitchell, the State Collector. After six or seven days, a decision in the matter was given. Business men have a feeling that they are regarded with suspicion, because statements by men of the highest integrity are not readily accepted. I recently produced to the customs authorities a declaration to the effect that a certain firm had imported malt for years under certain conditions, and although I could furnish cablegrams from overseas firms as to the nature of the goods, the business of the local firm was dislocated for a month. It would be advisable to appoint a parliamentary committee to report to the Government regarding the conditions operating in various departments, with a view to the prevention of friction with the business community. I have no complaint to make regarding the qualifications of some of the officers in charge of departments, but they are liable to act automatically. Keen men are needed to straighten out the difficulties of business firms who continually find themselves in trouble with departments. Almost any business house in Sydney will support my statement that the usual departmental methods interfere seriously with their operations. Taxes should be collected in such a way that commercial activities are not interfered with, and much relief could be afforded by more sympathetic administration. 3478 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) spent most of the time of his speech discussing the effect of the amendments to the invalid and old-age pensions law made last year. The pity of it is that the honorable gentleman supported those proposals when they were introduced. His present attitude is too belated. He must carry his part of the responsibility for the actions of the Government, which he supported, although he now knows that there is in his electorate, as in other electorates throughout the Commonwealth, widespread resentment at the effect of those amendments. In the circumstances, it is perhaps fitting that I should refer to certain statements which the honorable member made in discussing this subject last year. He said, among other things, that the pensioners themselves recognized that these adjustments were necessary. To-day he admits that the making of thorn has occasioned great difficulty and distress. He referred particularly to the effect of the property provisions of the act, and I understood him to say that if an amendment were moved to repeal the provisions relating to the assignment of a deceased pensioner's property to the Government, he would support it. Yet, in discussing the Financial Emergency Bill on the 22nd September last year, the honorable gentleman said - The provision under which the amount of pension paid will, upon the deathof a pensioner, bo a first charge upon his estate, is a wise one. He therefore justified his support of these amendments by stating quite definitely that they were wise. On the same occasion, the honorable gentleman said - I do not believe that a lower rate will be paid to more than 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. in the aggregate. Of course, the object of his remarks was to water down the effect of the amendments. It has since become obvious to the honorable member that there is so much resentment in his own electorate at the effect of these amendments that something will have to be done to review them. The right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page), who also supported the amendments of the pensions law last year, has now adopted the same attitude as the honorable member for Barton. It is well, however, that whatever the pensioners throughout the various electorates feel about these amendments, and whatever may be done now or later to remove the injustices, regard should be paid to the fac't that, during the last twelve months, great hardship has occurred in consequence of them. A mental note should be made of those individual members of Parliament who were responsible for the imposition of these hardships. I, with the members of my party, intend on every possible occasion to direct attention to this aspect of the subject, and' to ensure that the people' responsible for these amendments shall have public attention directed to them. Even now that the pension is to be restored to 17s. 6d. a week, we should remember that a large number of pensioners have suffered a severe contraction of their income by the reduction of the pension to 15s. a week. Those members who were responsible for the passage of that act must be called upon to carry their responsibility. Et is for this reason that I have directed attention to the remarks qf the honorable member for Barton last year, and contrasted them with his attitude to-day. I also wish to register my protest against the manner in which this measure is being submitted to Parliament. This is a comprehensive bill, as were the measures which originally imposed the financial emergency cuts, and subsequently provided for a certain measure of relief. The responsibility for the introduction of proposals in this form must be laid upon the shoulders of the former Commonwealth Treasurer, Mr. Theodore, who introduced into this Parliament the first comprehensive bill of this kind. The reason for the adoption of this method by the Government of which he was a member, and. by the succeeding Government, tq make it difficult, if not impos sible, for honorable members to vote against the second reading of the bill without allowing themselves to fall into the trap of voting against certain things which they desired to see accomplished. The effect of introducing comprehensive bills of this character is really to tie the hands of honorable members. This bill deals, in its early provisions, with the federal land tax. I cannot support the proposals of the right honorable member for Cowper in this connexion. It is strange to me that the Country party should continue to fight strenuously for the large city property-owners, and for the more influential sections associated with the land. It was disclosed last year in this House that two-thirds of the federal land tax is paid by city property-owners. The Country party has, therefore, become, to a large extent, the mouthpiece of big city property-owners. But even if we follow the application of the land tax from the city to the country, we find that, in most cases, this taxation is paid in respect of big pastoral properties held by such interests as the New Zealand Loan and Mortgage Company, Dalgety and Company Limited, Goldsbrough, Mort Limited, and so on. It will thus be seen that the members of the Country party, in fighting for the reduction and ultimate abolition of the federal land tax, are doing very little to assist that section of the farming community which actually works On the land, and which is of real producing value to the country. It was also pointed out last year, when this subject was under discussion, that the farmer who owned an average wheat farm of 600 acres did not pay a penny of land tax. The argument that" the land tax is strangling the farming interests is therefore shown, on analysis, to be quite without foundation. In fact, I cannot understand the attitude of the Country party on this subject. It appears to me that prominent members of the party, like Mr. Trethowan and others, who are associated with big insurance, banking, and other financial interests in the city, are able to exert sufficient influence upon their political organization to determine its policy, with the result that the real farming community is being strangled in order to buttress the big property interests in the cities and to obtain concessions of this character for them. 3480 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - That is a most unfair statement. 3480 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I have just completed a tour of the country, and from my personal contact with practical farmers I have gathered an abundance of evidence that this is the case. Honorable members surely do not forget that the deputation which waited on the Prime Ministerlast year to ask for the abolition of the federal land tax was headed by the principal figure in the firm of David Jones Limited, of Sydney, the gentleman who was appointed by this Government as chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Commission. It will hardly be denied that that gentleman was interested chiefly in the welfare of the big city interests. For these reasons I cannot understand why the party which alleges that it represents country interests should follow its present policy in this connexion. Any benefits that would flow from the adoption of the policy enunciated by the leader of the Country party would benefit, principally, the big city interests. It is as well that we should remember that, while the federal land fax was designed mainly to break up big estates, it was also intended to ensure that city property owners whose property was improved by the expenditure of government money should in return be called upon to make some contribution to the general revenue. In the same way it is only fair that the owners of pastoral and agricultural properties improved by the construction of highways, railways, water conservation schemes and the like should also make a contribution to the general revenue. To my mind this is only equitable and just. Ithas been argued for quite a long while that the remission of taxation will result in the provision of greater employment, but, unfortunately for the Government, experience has not justified that claim. Considerable relief from taxation was granted last year, but there has been no real improvement in the unemployment position. It is true that the figures disclose that the percentage of unemployment at present is 25.7, and that this figure shows a slight improvement, upon the returns for the last two years; but we must bear in mind that, on a conservative estimate, at least 5 per cent. of the people now returned as employed are actually working merely for food. If the Government intends to ask us to accept the proposition that the remission of taxation results in the provision of employment, it should bring forward some substantial evidence to that effect. So far the evidence does not bear out the declaration. 3480 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - The honorable member has quoted figures obtained from trade union returns. 3480 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - If those figures were good enough for the Prime Minister to use in his budget speech, they should be good enough for me to use in my speech. I contend that there has been no real improvement in the unemployment position of Australia. The relief from taxation that has been granted has not had the effect that we were told it, would have.- In my opinion, the only way in which the position can be improved is for the Government to adopt a policy which will have the result of increasing the purchasing power of the general mass of the community. People will not embark upon new private enterprises, nor enlarge existing undertakings unless they can be satisfied that there is a market for their output. That is the crux of the whole matter. There is room for great extensions of industry to provide the ordinary necessaries of life, such as clothing, shelter and the like ; but the system under which we live is such that everything is done for profit. Therefore, people must be assured of the return of production costs as well as of a measure of profit before they will embark upon new undertakings. Unless private enterprise can be assured that there will be a market for the goods that are produced, it is not likely that business will be enlarged to provide greater employment for the people. It resolves itself into a question of the purchasing power of the people, and we cannot expect any definite improvement while that remains at the low level at which it is to-day. A determined effort is being made further to reduce it, and I am certain that the adoption of the tariff schedules recently tabled in this House will result in manufacturers approaching the Arbitration Court for a further reduction of wages. Every means will be taken by Australian manufacturers to diminish competition from overseas manufacturers, and, ultimately, the burden will fall upon the workers. While wages remain at the present low level, there is very little prospect of a revival in industry. We can argue until we are black in the face that a restoration of financial stability and reduced unemployment depend largely upon the efforts of private enterprise which should be encouraged by reductions of taxation. Our arguments will be of no avail until the purchasing power of the people is improved. Proof already exists that the crisis through which we have gassed developed largely in consequence of the decreased purchasing power of the people, that it is impossible adequately to arrest the drift by the financial proposals of the Government, and that complete restoration is impossible until radical alterations of our financial system are effected, and definite proposals are adopted to augment the purchasing power of the people. Under the bill, it is proposed to remit £710,000 of the taxation now imposed upon insurance companies. According to figures published by the Commonwealth Statistician, the assets and liabilities of ordinary and industrial insurance companies were, in 1930, as follows: - Paid-up capital, £1,706,160; assets, £143,000,000; liabilities, £106,000,000. There was thus a surplus of assets over liabilities amounting to £37,000,000. While the liabilities increased in 1930 as against 1929 by £284,000, the assets increased by over £9,000,000. In submitting the budget, the Prime Minister did not explain very clearly the method to be employed in arriving at the basis upon which these remissions are to be made. 3481 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - That information will be given in committee. 3481 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - It is very difficult for honorable members to follow what is proposed. This morning I felt disposed to ask whether some explanation of the proposed amendment of the law could be given. The Prime Minister referred to remissions being made on an actuarial valuation of the liabilities and the profits, but in view of the Statistician's figures the House will be pleased to have the information which the Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Casey) says will be given in committee. It is also proposed to grant taxation concessions to overseas shipping companies to the extent of £25,000. The House is entitled to know why the Government should offer this concession to these interests. The overseas shipping companies are entitled to register where it suits them best; but at a time when other countries, including Great Britain, are endeavouring to overcome their own financial difficulties, and are certainly using every means at their disposal to assist their revenue, it seems strange that this Commonwealth Government should make a concession of £25,000 to shipping companies registered overseas. The Prime Minister has merely informed the House that the rate of 7½ per cent. is to be reduced to 5 per cent. Mr.Fenton. - In the hope that the reduction may result in lower freights. 3481 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - That may be what the Government has in mind, but experience shows that concessions are not likely to be obtained from this source, and, even if they are anticipated,£25,000 cannot be regarded as a very attractive bait. 3481 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - One company granted concessions worth £24,000. 3481 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - An overseas transport committee was set up allegedly to eliminate competition, and so prevent certain freighters from picking the eyesout of our overseas shipments. I am notsure whether the Government has renewed the agreement with the overseas shipping companies entered into by the previous Administration, but I remember reading of a controversy between the parties, and if my memory servesme aright, the representatives of that committee refused to give any further concession when the agreement was about to be renewed. I shall deal now with the amendments of the law relating to invalid and old-age pensions. Provision is made in this bill to restore £635,000 to pensioners. Last year, the Government said that it was necessary to take £700,000 from pensioners in order to balance the budget. Its original proposals provided for a reduction of pensions to the extent of £1,100,000; but owing to the agitation that developed largely by the organizations which the pensioners set up to defend their interests- 3482 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - Rot! 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! 3482 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I cannot help it if there is rot in the mind of the honorable member. That is his business. 3482 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - It is in the honorable member's mind. 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein) is distinctly out of order in disregarding the direction of the Chair. It is most discourteous of the honorable member to term a remark by the honorable member for "West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) as " rot," and I ask him to obey the direction of the Chair and not repeat the offence. 3482 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Last year the Government proposed to take £1,100,000 from pensioners; but after an intense agitation started by organizations set up to defend the pensioners- 3482 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - That is not true. 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3482 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I ask that that remark bewithdrawn. 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - If the honorable member for Lang persists in being disorderly, I shall have to name him. I ask the honorable member to apologize to the Chair and to the honorable member addressing the House for his disorderly remarks. 3482 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - In deference to your wishes, sir, I do so. I inferred from the remarks of the honorable member for West Sydney that I was one of those to whom he was referring, and it is hard for one to sit here- 3482 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! The honorable member has complied with the direction of the Chair. If he disagrees with a statement made by another honorable member he will have ample opportunity to reply. 3482 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I was saying that it was due to the work of pensioners' organizations set up to defend their interests that the amount by which pensions were to be reduced was amended. These organizations have done a wonderful work by directing public attention to these unnecessary impositions. Their influence in the electorates has been sufficiently strong to make their demands felt, and there is no doubt that their claims have found recognition in the budget recently presented to Parliament. The point I wish to stress is that last year the Government said that it was necessary to make further inroads into pensions in order that the budget might be balanced, and that after surveying the whole financial field it subsequently reduced the amount by which pensions were to be cut from £1,100,000 to £700,000. A little over two months after the presentation of the budget the people were advised that there was a surplus of over £1,000,000. The claim of the Opposition that there was no justification for any further interference with pensions was fully substantiated. Yet later in the year, in order to dispose of the surplus, the Government brought down amending legislation remitting taxation to wealthy land-owners to the extent of the amount by which pensions had been reduced a few months earlier. The £700,000 taken from the pensioners was in November last handed over to these wealthy land-owners. The stand we took up in this regard has been fully justified. Pensioners were put in a false position by the Government. There was no justification for interfering with the 17s. 6d. rate, even on the basis of the Government's own reckoning. There is just cause for complaint by those whose pensions were reduced to 15s. or less. The money was unjustifiably taken from them, and we shall make that known throughout the country whenever the opportunity presents itself to do so. It is now proposed to base pensions on the cost of living, and under this scheme it is extremely doubtful whether pensions will ever reach the old level. I do not think they will. Again I have to lay the responsibility for the introduction of such a scheme upon Mr. Theodore. He it was who first suggested that pensions should be based on the cost of living. In speaking in the House in June, 1931, he referred to the purchasing power of money and said that at that time 17s. 6d. would purchase slightly more in food and groceries than could be bought for 20s. in 1925. His words are now being used by the supporters of another government. Pensions are now to be regulated according to the index figures governing the cost of living in respect of food and groceries alone. 3483 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - It was never contemplated by the Government at that time that a restoration would be based upon the cost of living figures. 3483 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I am pleased to hear that. In March of this year the index figure upon which this calculation is based was 1317. Pensioners will start off at an index figure of 1400. There has been a steady fall in the figures since 1929, and from 1931 the fall has been over 90 points. Even on that basis the cost of living would have to return to the level at which it stood in 1929 before pensioners would receive an increase of 6d. a week in their pensions. It seems quite obvious that the Government is safe in submitting these proposals, and that this scheme has been brought forward only as a talking point for supporters of the Government. They know that the figures will never reach a stage at which an increase in pensions will be necessary. The most serious aspect to the pensioner is that his pension is now definitely fixed at 17s. 6d. a week. It was never expected by the people that the amount of the pension would be determined by any rise or fall in the cost of living. In any ease, the cost of living depends on more than food and groceries - the only items which the Government proposes to take into account. If the Government is honest, it will take all factors, including clothing and shelter, into consideration. Pensioners are human beings, although it would appear that the Government, in adopting this proposal, scarcely thinks so. Among these unfortunate people who are forced to accept pensions are many of the pioneers of this country whose efforts have made possible our enjoyment in this later day. When in their prime, few of them thought that they would have to depend on the State in their declining years. Circumstances have been unkind to them, but that is no reason why this generation should seek to evade its obligations to them. Unsatisfactory conditions in industry have contributed largely to the ill-health of those who seek invalid pensions. In serving their country, they lost their health and strength, but that does not justify the Government in ignoring their claims or despising them as it has done. Until this Government submitted these proposals it was never contemplated that the pension should have any relation to the cost of living. 3483 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - Was not the pension increased from time to time because of increases in the cost of living? 3483 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - The pension was increased from time to time according to the capacity of the country to provide the necessary finance. 3483 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - That has been the main consideration throughout. 3483 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Those who pioneered this class of legislation felt that it was the duty of the country to assist, in their declining years, those of its citizens who could not provide for themselves; and from time to time, according . to the capacity of the country to do so, the amount of the pension was increased. The discussion of the budget affords us . an opportunity to restore the pension to the full rate of £1 a week. Throughout the country there is strong resentment among people of all shades of political opinion regarding the iniquitous provisions of the legislation passed last year authorizing the Government to seize a pensioner's property after his death. A pensioner's home is to him more than a matter of pounds, shillings and pence. Sentiment attaches to a home in which a man and his wife have reared their family. Many old people cling to the family home, and derive a great deal of satisfaction from their ability to hand it over at their death to the sons and daughters whom they have reared, and who, in turn, have helped to build up the home. It is scandalous that the Government should step in and seize the homes of pensioners merely because they have had to accept assistance from the State in their old age. These people are not receiving a pension at all; they have really mortgaged their property to the Government. During recent election campaigns, anti-Labour parties have issued propaganda warning electors of the danger of a Labour Government taking the homes and the savings of the people; but it remained for the Lyons Government - an anti-Labour Administration - to put such a policy into operation. We, in this party, will endeavour to initiate and support any proposal to delete these iniquitous sections from the act now ou the statute-book. It would appear, from the Prime Minister's speech, that the Government is determined to maintain its attitude on this question, because the right honorable gentleman said that the Government had given it serious consideration, and considered it to be sound in principle. One reason given by him was that since the act was amended the number of persons drawing pensions had fallen considerably. He added that many persons not entitled to pensions had previously been drawingpensions. I resent that accusation against pensioners, because I know of many instances of persons relinquishing their pensions through the confiscatory sections of the act to which I have referred. They, no .doubt, are typical of many others holding similar views. Rather than sign away their property many people have been prepared to accept privation and hardship. The Government is callous to their suffering; it sees only a saving of about £500,000 a year. I hope that the time is not far distant when a sufficient number of honorable members will stand up for the rights of pensioners and delete these obnoxious sections from the act, even at the expense of defeating the Government. In committee, we in this party will seek to amend the bill, particularly in respect of those sections which deal with the assessing of the income of pensioners and applicants for pensions. In our opinion, child endowment should not be regarded as income. Superannuation receipts also should be disregarded when assessing the income of claimants, because, in most cases, these receipts are merely a return of moneys set aside by the recipients in earlier years. It is not right that these persons should suffer because of their thrift. We also disagree with the practice of assessing as income any profits received by pensioners from the boarding of their children. The provision in the act which allows such receipts to bo assessed as income has given rise to a good deal of trouble, particularly since the department will not disclose the basis of its calculations. Nor should nonrevenue producing property be assessed as income when determining the rate of pension. I know of cases in which pensioners in ill health have left the property in which they resided in order to get nearer to a doctor or a hospital for medical attention. In bona fide cases of that kind vacant property, which is not bringing in any revenue to the pensioner, should not be taken into account when assessing his income. Another portion of the bill deals with the pensions of soldiers. It is proposed that the wives of incapacitated soldiers shall have restored to them 10 per cent, of the per cent, taken from them under the financial emergency legislation passed by this Parliament. According to the Prime Minister that restoration will represent about £136,000 per annum. Other dependants of soldiers are also to benefit, provided that their income does not exceed 30s. a week, the amount which the department considers is adequate for their support. Remissions under this heading are estimated to cost £247,000 a year. Under the original Premiers plan the adjustments made in regard to pensions and repatriation services amounted to £1,300,000. 3484 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - The actual amount did not exceed £750,000. 3484 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - My figures include both repatriation and war services. The Government which proposes to offer £247,000 to certain sections of soldiers contemplates an additional expenditure of £1,462,000 under the heading of " Defence ". Before embarking on that expenditure it should honour the promises made to those who fought in the Great War. Those men and their dependants are now in a position to judge the value of the promises made during the war. It is reported that the officials of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League of Australia are well satisfied with the Government's proposals. If so. they are speaking for themselves. Probably their circumstances are different from those of the men affected by the cuts made in soldiers' pensions. Such opinions do not express the view of the rank and file of soldiers who have suffered seriously from the application of the emergency cuts. 3485 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3485 KVU New England 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON . - When making his speech on this bill, the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) pursued a characteristic line of argument which has become almost an obsession with him when referring to the attitude of the Country party towards the alleged wealthier classes of Australia. His speech, though excellent in many respects, was somewhat vitiated by the slur which he cast upon members of the United Country party. He charged them, when seeking further remissions of taxa~ tion, and particularly land tax and super tax upon property, with being actuated solely by a desire to pander to the wealthy commercial and landed interests of the big capital cities. The case of the United Country party was clearly put by its leader (Dr. Earle Page), who left no doubts in the minds of fair-thinking persons regarding the motive of this party in seeking further remissions of taxation. The right honorable gentleman was emphatic that the sole objective of the party which he leads was not further to feather the nests of wealthy commercial land-owning interests, but to stimulate the growth of employment throughout Australia. He also made it clear that unemployment in Australia is diminishing so slowly that more drastic measures must be taken by the Commonwealth and State Governments if there is to be an appreciable improvement in the position. Figures show that, in the last two years, unemployment has been decreased only by. 5 per cent., which is nothing much to boast about, particularly when both the Commonwealth and State Governments are proclaiming that Australiahas left the depression behind and is travelling towards its old-time prosperity. With such a slight decrease in our unemployment figures, not even the most optimistic can claim with truth that the tide has turned. I believe that the attitude of the United Country party is the only sound and logical one that has been adopted by any political party in Australia. After casting slurs on this party, the honorable member for West Sydney had not the courtesy to remain in the chamber to listen to the answers of its members, which is characteristic of critics of his type and certainly not a fair attitude for the leader of a political party to adopt. The Country party has no brief for the wealthy interests of Australia. I suppose that, in the aggregate, its supporters and members are poorer than those of any other party. It is peculiar that while supporters of the Lang party are everready to criticize this party for its alleged support of wealthy interests, they never assist it to help the poverty-stricken classes. The burden of their dirge is that the proof that Australia has not returned to prosperity is the hopeless position of its unemployed. Yet when the Country party submits a proposal to alter that position, honorable members in the corner brush it aside and say, "The Country party is supporting the abolition of land tax, which is paid mainly by the large land-owning interests; and that affords proof of its mala fides. It cannot possibly be sincere in its attitude towards unemployment, for it wants to abolish the whole of the super tax on property, irrespective of its argument that that tax has a most hampering influence on employment, particularly in the building trade. Honorable members of that party refuse to analyze the arguments advanced by the Country party, and brand all its proposals for the improvement of the position of the unemployed as cant and hypocrisy, claiming that its real motive is to line the pockets of those who are already over-protectedby the Government. Apparently, it is useless to try to convince them to the contrary; it is one of their political catch-cries, of which it would be a pity to rob them. After listening to the speeches of members of the Labour party, I am inclined to think that they are more concerned about making a case for themselves for the next election than the present position of unemployment. They realize that the Government is enhancing its prestige by lifting some of the 'burdens from the public at a critical stage in Australia's economic position, and they do not like that. I have formed the opinion that they would be bitterly disappointed if the Government were in a position to carry into effect the proposals that have been put forward by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin). Had the Government been able to "go the whole hog," in that direction, I doubt whether the two Labour parties - for there are two, and they fight like Kilkenny cats - would have even the shreds of a policy to put before the people at the next general election. 3486 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I ask the honorable member to discuss the bill. 3486 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - I shall nowoffer some suggestions to the Government which I hope it will receive in the spirit in which they are conveyed. It is not the desire of the Country party to handicap the Government in its work of restoring prosperity. I dispute the insinuation that has been made in this chamber, and outside, that the Country party has tried to obstruct the Government in carrying out its financial policy. Our criticism has at all times been of a constructive nature. I was glad to hear the remarks of the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane). Apparently certain honorable members, particularly those of the recalcitrant type, are beginning to see the light, and realize that members of the Country party are their friends. Before the next general election takes place, they will discover that, provided they are honest, those who are their most severe critics are often their best friends. If the suggestions that have been made by members of the Country party, and particularly its leader, are taken in the right spirit, supporters of the Government will find that we are really their best friends. We realize that the Government is facing tremendous difficulties, and appreciate the highly constructive effort that it has made, however tardily, to lift the burden from primary producers. In that respect we realize the truth of the axiom, " Better late than never." I assure the Government that the measure of relief outlined in the budget speech, and contained in this bill, is widely appreciated by all sections in the country. If, later on, and with the assistance of the Country party, the Government can go further and evolve a method of affording practical help to the wheat industry this season, the appreciation that is felt in the rural districts will be considerably increased. Much has been said during this debate about the position of pensioners, many honorable members having devoted the greater part of their speeches to the subject. It would appear that, if the Government is not prepared to consider the proposals of certain honorable members, it will have to face the alternative of vital votes being cast against it. 3486 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - With the result that the Government will be thrown out. 3486 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - That is not the desire of members of the Country party. I am confident that honorable members opposite would be greatly upset if they thought that there was the remotest chance of such an untoward happening. Despite the efforts of the Government to remedy injustices that have been done to invalid, old-age and soldier pensioners, much remains to be done; but criticism should be withheld until the financial position improves. We realize now that the cuts made last year were unnecessary. If when we were discussing the proposals then brought forward, we could have foreseen the position as it exists to-day, no honorable member would have advocated the cuts in salaries and social services then made. Now we should consider whether, in view of the fact that the position to-day is so much better than it was a year ago, the Government could not go further and make a more substantial restoration of the cutsto pensioners and public servants; whether, in fact; it should not adopt the proposals of the Opposition and make a complete restitution of all deductions that were authorized under the Premiers plan. The Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) told us last night that if the proposal outlined in the hostile amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition were adopted, the Government would be involved in an additional expenditure of £3,500,000. I do not know whether the Minister meant that this further expenditure would be added to the amount of the present tax remissions, or whether it would be additional cost to the Government ; but I assume he had in mind the additional cost which would be involved. Under the budgetary position as explained by the leader of the Country party, it would be possible for the Government to do what he suggested, if it cared to sacrifice the surplus which it holds in reserve for the purpose, we are told, of obviating the necessity for budgeting for a deficit next year or the year after. If the Government is prepared to sacrifice this surplus and to take a still greater chance with regard to the revenue position during the next two years, it can quite easily provide an extra £3,500,000 to restore all cuts in social services and salaries made under the Premiers plan. I admit, of course, that this would be a spectacular gesture, but it is within the range of practical politics, because, on the present budgetary position, it can remit a further £5,000,000 of taxation revenue. The Postmaster-General said last night that he could not understand our proposals, : and the honorable gentleman went on to say that they ignored all the commonsense factors of the present economic and financial situation. It is a pity that the Minister did not amplify his remarks, because I am sure all honorable members would have been interested to learn what factors were being ignored by my leader. Had he done so, possibly he would have induced some of us to change our views with respect to certain aspects of the Government's policy. But all that the honorable gentleman did was to make a sweeping assertion that Country party members were ignoring certain unnamed factors, and declare that their proposal for the remission of a further £5,000,000 of taxation was absolutely preposterous. If the Postmaster-General is right, it is surely the duty of the Government to show how it is not possible to remit the amount of taxation suggested by my leader. Since it has not done this, we are entitled to assume that, after all, the proposal is a sound one. For the same reason, the proposition advanced by the Leader of the Opposition is perfectly sound, namely, that the Government should add another £3,500,000 to its budget commitments and make possible the complete restoration of the cuts authorized under the Premiers plan. 3487 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - If that is done, what will be the position next year? 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - I admit that the Government must accept some risk with regard to next year's operations, but actually that is what it is doing with respect to the proposals now before the country. All that we suggest is that it should take a slightly greater risk, and we submit that on present prospects, as indicated in the revenue returns to date for this financial year, the risk is a comparatively safe one. 3487 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - The whole of the Country party's proposal is sheer guesswork. 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - It is not. The Government has, in reserve, a surplus of £4,860,000, and in the firstthree months of this financial year it has received over £3,000,000 from income tax which properly should have been collected last year. 3487 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - What about the accumulated deficit of £17,000,000? 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - The actual position is that the Government has a cash reserve of £4,860,000, which it is holding for emergency purposes. 3487 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - The honorable member should go to the Treasury and look for it. 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - The amount is shown in the budget speech, and the proposal made by my leader, being based on those figures, has not been disproved. If the budget does not disclose the real position, we are entitled to an explanations. Our figures have been published throughout the country, and the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) remarked last night that not one newspaper had commented on them. 3487 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - Does the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) understand them? 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - Certainly he does. He has mentioned his proposal on two occasions in this House, and his figures have not been challenged. 3487 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - No one has taken them seriously. 3487 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - At all events, we stand by the financial policy which he has enunciated, and by his figures. If they are wrong, and if the Government has not in reserve the surplus mentioned in the budget speech, the budget itself is absolutely misleading, and, apparently, leaves a good deal to be explained. We are entitled to assume that the figures put forward by my leader are incontrovertible; therefore, the course which he has outlined should be adopted in the interests of the country. If the figures upon which his proposal is based are wrong, it is the duty of Ministers to explain in what respect they are incorrect. Two proposals have emerged from this discussion. The first was that by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) to set aside £3,500,000 of the surplus which the Government has in hand for the restoration of the cuts made in social services and salaries, and, in effect, make good the deductions made under the Premiers plan. The other is the one submitted by my leader that the Government should abolish the whole of the land tax - only 50 per cent. of it is now being imposedabolish also the remaining 5 per cent. of the super tax on property, and the whole of the primage duty on imports from Great Britain. This is the Country party's proposal in a nutshell. It is riot put forward, as the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) said, because we wish to give relief from land taxation to the wealthy commercial interests of this country. Our one purpose is to offer some constructive suggestions for the solution of the unemployment problem about which honorable members of the Lang Labour party are always making so much noise. The adoption of our proposal would not cost the Government much more than would the acceptance of the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition, and it would have the additional advantage of stimulating development, and widening the area of employment throughout the country. A revival in the building trades would mean additional employment, but, as is well known, the super income tax on property is one of the retarding influences against activi ty in those trades. The big commercial interests in the capital cities pay about two-thirds of the land tax, but they also provide the bulk of employment by private enterprise. Taxation is crippling business enterprises in the cities and in country towns from one end of Australia to the other, and is acting as a wet blanket on all proposals for additional employment. The land tax is virtually a levy on capital because it has to be paid whether or not profits are earned in the financial year in which it, is levied. Its continued imposition discourages employers who, but for this burden, would be disposed to expand their businesses and provide more employment. Country party members are not supporting the proposal of the Leader of the Opposition, because we believe that until there is a more definite improvement of our overseas trade, and until the percentage of unemployed is considerably reduced, it will not be safe or wise to abandon entirely the Premiers plan. We can quite safely wait another year. If the position continues to improve, we may then find it practicable to restore the whole of the cuts made under the Premiers plan. It does not seem wise to do so now, but efforts are being made by governments and private employers to provide more work for the unemployed as quickly as possible. There is nothing sinister in our proposal. As I have already observed, we have no axe to grind on behalf of the commercial interests. The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) was right when he said that the Country party was actually hostile to the powerful commercial interests in the capital cities. We have good reason to be critical of those interests, but we realize that it is quite useless to expect employment to be materially increased at a time like this unless the Government lifts the burden of excessive taxation from the shoulders of private enterprise. Those with a knowledge of. business or industry know only too well what an enormous amount all classes of business men have to set aside for the payment of Federal and State taxation. They also know how difficult it is for business and industry to pay this taxation, and, at the same time, absorb more people in employment. Many small business enterprises could very well do with more labour, and perhaps could absorb a number of the boys and girls who come into the labour market each year, but they cannot be expected to do this when their chief concern is to budget to pay Federal and State taxation. I have seen the balance-sheets of a number of country newspapers. Usually the proprietors of such businesses can balance their budgets, but during the last four years the majority of them have been obliged to reducehands, and to confine their attention seriously to budgeting to avoid a deficit. One or two of them may be able to show a profit, but the majority are at their wits' end to find the money to pay their taxation, and to avoid discharging employees. Some have had to dismiss 50 per cent. of their staffs. Sitting suspended from 6.15 to8 p.m. 3489 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - I stated earlier that the Government has in hand the sum of £4,860,000 as a set-off against the estimated deficit of £4,848,000 for the next two years and that, therefore, it is in a position to make further concessions to the taxpayers, or to adopt the proposals of the Opposition. The Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Casey) interjected that that surplus is not held in cash, and I believe the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) said that it does not exist. 3489 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - It is the balance on accounts, not cash. 3489 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - It is money that is accounted for by the Government in its budget, which says - The estimated deficits for 1933-34 and 1934-35 aggregate £4,848,000, and will absorb practically the whole of the excess receipts for the last two years, viz., £4,860,000. Whether the surplus is represented by cash or merely by a book-keeping adjustment, does not matter; it is provided for in the budget, and vindicates the contention of the leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), that the Government is able, if willing to do so, to make further concessions forthwith to the taxpayers, or alternatively to accept the proposal of the Opposition to restore all the cuts made under the Premiers plan. There is no need for me to go further into that matter, except to say that our proposals are definitely designed not to bolster up wealthy interests, but to enable private enterprise, which normally provides 82 per cent. of the employment to make a further impression on the existing 25 per cent. of unemployment. That is a very big percentage in these days, when, according to the budget, the depression is practically at an end, and we can reasonably assume that we are marching steadily towards the normal prosperity of pre-depression days. There is no urgent need for the Government to adopt the plan suggested by the Opposition. The concessions that are to be made to public servants, old-age pensioners, and certain sections of the taxpayers, are quite sufficient, in view of the risk of what may happen in the immediate future. The Commonwealth's big task is to restore to employment those who are out of work. No party in this House, other than the Country party, has put forward a concrete proposal to that end. If the budget position improves - and it is likely to do so - a further portion, if not the whole, of the cuts made under the Premiers plan can be restored. I should support whole-heartedly such a proposal. But, under existing conditions, with 25 per cent. of the employable population out of work, public servants and old-age pensioners are being treated fairly. It would be cruel, to say the least, if the Government were to favour some sections of the community, and make no coherent effort to deal with the problem of unemployment. I am glad that the Government has restored a portion, at least, of the cuts sustained by public servants. I hope to see the whole of them restored within the next twelve months. I trust, also, that the Government will make retrospective the restoration of the superannuation cuts. If any section of the community was treated with unnecessary harshness under the Premiers plan, it was the superannuated Commonwealth public servants. The reduction of their allowance, towards which they had contributed over a period of years, was a form of barefaced robbery. I have three complaints to make against the budget proposals in relation to old age pensions. The first is that the Government has made no provision for the repeal of the provision under which old age pensioners are robbed - no fitter term may be applied - of their rights in property. That provision cuts right across an established principle, in that it differentiates between pensioners, those who have no property being granted the full pension without restriction or condition, while those who have, and who should therefore be entitled to some protection, are attacked almost vindictively. This is on all-fours with the basic principle of communism, that property must be attacked by means of taxation. If any property must be attacked, let it be that of the stronger and wealthier elements of the community. I challenge the Government to prove that any advantage has been derived from this provision. I dispute the statement of the honorable member for Denison(Mr. Hutchin) that thousands of those who have surrendered their pensions had been improperly receiving them. That statement cannot be substantiated by either the honorable member or the Government. "We are told that about 11,000 pensions have been surrendered. I contend that in 90 per cent. of those cases the motive was fear. I also affirmthat the repeal of this provision would not affect the budgetary commitments of the Government, but that on the contrary, it would remove a running sore in the ranks of old-age pensioners, whose principal concern is not the amount of pension they are receiving, but the surprising attack that has been made on the principle of the ownership of property by old and poverty-stricken people. This action cannot be, and is not being, justified. 3490 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - The honorable member voted for that provision last year. 3490 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - I did not; I was one of those who both spoke and voted against it. If the Government went fully into the matter, it would realize that a great mistake has been made. No tangible advantage has been derived by the taxpayers, but a serious hardship has been inflicted upon old-age pensioners who have property. The principle that thrift should be encouraged so that in their old age citizens may have homes of their own, has been destroyed. It has been conclusively demonstrated that this particular provision is punitive and vindictive, and that it ought never to have been enacted. Its repeal without further ado would be a graceful gesture. It is practically unworkable, has caused chaos, has destroyed the faith of many pensioners in the Government and the Parliament of this country, and has given rise to the conviction that it is foolish to put by anything for old age. The department will not he able to fix upon valuations that will be fair to either the pen sioners or their dependants. Practically no benefit will accrue to the Commonwealth. I am sorry that the Government has decided to juggle with old-age pensions on the basis of the cost of living. In practice, this scheme will prove practically unworkable. It will impose further burdens on the administration, give no pleasure to pensioners, cause greater confusion, and add to the work that has to be done by honorable members, who surely have enough to do already. I shall vote against the proposal, because I believe it to be fundamentally wrong. It is probably made with good intentions, but is, nevertheless, in the nature of a. trick and, I am certain, will quickly be abandoned. That it does not represent an increase of the pension is shown by the absence of provision for additional expenditure in the future. I trust that the Government will make the pension 17s. 6d. a week, subject to the usual conditions. That would simplify the administration, and remove much unnecessary worry from the minds of pensioners. The iogical and sensible thing would be to increase the amount that pensioners may earn, which at present is only 2s. 6d. a week. 3490 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - Under the bill it is 12s. 6d. a week. 3490 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr THOMPSON - I did not know that the Government was restoring that provision. There was no reference to it in the budget. 3490 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3490 KX7 East Sydney 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD .- This is an astounding measure. When the Government called it a financial relief hill it probably had in mind the fact that it was intended to give relief to the wealthy sections of the community, which are the only sections for which this Government ever does anything. We were told that the bill would restore the cuts in social services which had been made as a result of the financial depression, but we find that the Government, having, at last, got its finances in order and built up a surplus, proposes to use that surplus, not for the purpose of restoring the cuts, but to hand out gifts to its friends. Last year the Government remitted £700,000 to federal land tax payers, and this year it proposes to remit a further £400,000, making a total of £1,100,000, notwithstanding the fact that land tax is paid only by those who own property, the unimproved value of which is not less than £5,000. The Government also proposes to make a gift of £-25,000 to shipowners living abroad, though they were not called upon to make any contribution during the period of general sacrifice. Another amazing proposal is that to reduce taxation on income from property. Under the Premiers plan special taxation on property income was imposed to the amount of £820,000. Last year the Government reduced the tax by 33J per cent., and this year it proposes to make another cut of 16| per cent. Further concessions are to be given to life assurance companies, notwithstanding the fact that they made no sacrifices during the emergency. They will now pay no tax on a portion of their income, while the rate on the remainder will be reduced by 30 per cent. During the emergency period the Government increased the company tax rate from ls. 4d. to ls. 4.8d., and it now proposes to reduce it to ls., a concession of 30 per cent.. This will enable the companies to pay bigger dividends to their shareholders, but the general public will not benefit by reduced prices. The Government proposes to confer these benefits on its friends and, in order to induce honorable members on this side of the House to support the bill, it has included a few provisions, such as the partial restoration of pensions and of salary cuts. Speaking in March of last year the Prime Minister . (Mr. Lyons) said that the Government would issue instructions to the effect that food relief was not to be taken into account when assessing the income of pensioners. He added that the Government proposed to ensure, by legislative enactment, that this direction would be carried into effect. Nevertheless, clause 22 of this bill provides that the value of any food relief obtained shall be assessed against the applicant for a pension if the State Government has failed to take the pension into account when granting the food relief. I am of the opinion that food relief gives only a bare subsistence to the recipient, and that it would not be taken into account when considering pension payments. Now the Commonwealth Government is, in effect, saying to the State Government, that they must take pensions into account when considering the eligibility of applicants for food relief. When the bill is in committee an opportunity will be given to honorable members to delete this provision. The Government, with the idea of handing out a few crumbs to the pensioners, has stated that the maximum pension is to be increased from 15s. to 17s. 6d. a week; yet honorable members on the other side have told pensioners that the maximum pension had not been reduced below 17s. 6d. a week. The pensioners were told, when the reductions were first made, that, as soon as the condition of the national finances permitted, their pensions would be restored. Now, however, although the Government has a surplus of several million pounds, only a portion of the cut is to be restored, and the pensioners have been promised that their pensions shall be increased in the future as the cost of living rises. Honorable members should understand, however, that, under this system, tie pensioners can never hope to have their pensions restored to the full £1 a week. The Prime Minister said that cost of living increases were to be assessed on the 1911 figures, the base to be 1,000. When the index figure rose to 1,400, the pensions would be increased by 6d. a week, and a scale is laid down for further increases in accordance with advances in the cost of living. The way in which this will work out is shown by the following table : - Accordingly, as the cost of living increases, the pensioner will .be in a relatively worse position. If the Government were sincere in respect of its proposal to" base the pension upon the cost of living, it would make to the aged and invalid a payment based on the cost of living to-day, and not one that could be increased practically fourfold before the pensioner could he said to be enjoying a decent standard of living. I do not share the opinion of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson), that the Government is sincere in putting forward this proposal. Most ministerial members have probably never experienced the poverty and misery suffered by the unfortunate pensioners. For instance, the honorable, member for Denison (Mr. Hutchin), has always held a sheltered position in life, and, therefore, cannot claim to be capable of deciding whether a pensioner can live on 15s. or l'7s. 6d. a week. It is absurd for honorable members to contend that pensioners are better off to-day on 17s. 6d. a week than they were a, few years ago when the pension was £1 a week. This unfortunate section of the community has always had to make sacrifices. Honorable members, when they suffered a reduction of salary, did not forgo any of the necessaries of life, nor did they have to consider whether they could afford to pay for certain articles of diet. The pensioners, on the other hand, have had to consider the expenditure of every penny; many of them are unable to afford three meals a day. I come now to the Government's- proposal in respect of war pensions. There are, in this chamber, honorable members who are always giving lip service to the men who served iu the war. I was opposed, to. participation in the last war just as I shall he opposed to participation in any future war, because I realize that the majority of the people have nothing to gain, but everything to lose by engaging iu warfare. The Government proposes to give very little relief to war pensioners notwithstanding the fact that it has always talked about its sacred obligations to the returned soldiers. It found justification for reducing war pensions at a time of emergency. It did not reduce the actual pensions of the returned soldiers themselves, hut it attacked the allowances of the wives and children of incapacitated ex-soldiers. Even honorable members who wear the emblem of service on their coat lapels supported the Government in its attack upon the dependants of those who fought with them on the other side of the world. It is now proposed to reduce the pension payments to the wives of incapacitated soldiers, not by 22^ per cent, as before, but by 10 per cent., and in respect of the children of incapacitated soldiers, the full pension is to be restored. That concession is to apply only to returned soldiers who were smashed at the war, and a'ble to obtain a pension, and not to the many thousands who, because of their war service, are totally incapacitated, but being unable to prove to the satisfaction of the Repatriation Department' that their disability was due to or aggravated by war service, cannot obtain a pension and are consequently walking the streets without the wherewithal to lire. The Minister for Repatriation well knows that hundreds of such cases have been submitted to him. On occasions, too, even when the Entitlement Tribunal has eventually been prepared to decide in favour of the applicant for a pension, the Government has used its prerogative to overrule the tribunal's decision. Even in cases in which incontrovertible evidence has been submitted to the High Court, the applicants have found it impossible to obtain pensions or any portion of the assistance that was promised to them, when they went to fight in the war from 1914 to 1918. I suggest that the Government should amend this legislation, so that returned soldiers who are in need of pensions may receive some measure of justice. I come now to the proposed concessions to public servants. Most honorable members are always prepared to champion the cause of the more highly-paid officers, but few are willing to take up the cudgels on behalf of the lower-paid men. The Government is providing little relief for certain sections of the Public Service. The cost of living reductions since 1931 amount to £42 per annum. In April, 1931, a reduction of £18 per annum was accepted by the Public Service three months before it was actually due, yet it has received no consideration from the Government for its sacrifice. Later a reduction of £16 per annum was imposed 12 months before it was due. These reductions are made upon a flat rate and necessarily bear more heavily upon the lower-paid officers. The Government is doing nothing at all to assist those on the basic wage, and I suggest that it should give to them the measure of relief that is being given to other sections of the community. The wages paid to the basic wage worker on the 1st July, 1930, was £216 per annum, and his present wage is £174 per annum. He is to be given no increase in wages, although when he has paid wages tax and Contributed to the superannuation fund, which payments' bring his actual pay below the basic wage, his net earnings are considerably less than £1-74. The public servant on a salary of £220 per annum on the 1st July, 1930, is to-day on the basic wage of £174 per annum. He is to receive an increase of £4 per annum or ls. 6$d. a week. The worker on £250 per annum on the 1st July, 1930, is to-day on a wage of £197 per annum. He is to receive an increase of £11 per annum or 4s. 3d. a week. Generally speaking, the members of the Public Service are not receiving the consideration to which they are entitled. There are in the Postmaster-General's Department 900 adult employees who are not being paid even the adult basic wage, yet some honorable members have the audacity to call this measure a financial relief bill. 3493 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must not use the term " audacity " lin relation to honorable members. 3493 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The Government does not intend to increase the maternity allowance. This legislation is supposed to restore the reductions that were made under the Financial Emergency Act and, therefore, the proposed concessions should apply only to those who were affected by that legislation. However, we find that the Government has decided to distribute its surplus among sections of the community which are not in need of any assistance. The Prime Minister, in order to obtain the support of honorable members, has included in this bill a proposal to restore the reductions of superannuation benefits, and I agree with the honorable member for New England that that concession should be made retrospective when it affects the great bulk of the public servants. Rut included among those who are now to receive full superannuation benefits is a section of the community which was not prepared to make any contribution to the general sacrifice under the financial emergency legislation. The invalid and old-age pensioners are to enjoy a restoration of only 12-J per cent, of the cuts they suffered, but judges are to have their pension payments fully restored. "When the financial emergency legislation was introduced in 1931 certain honorable members pressed the Government to compel the judges of this- country to bear some portion of the sacrifice that was then, being demanded of every man and woman throughout the Commonwealth. Under the Constitution, Parliament, unfortunately, has not power to reduce the salaries of judges. Members of the Bench were asked to agree voluntarily to a reduction, so that they would share in the general sacrifice; but what, was their reply? Surely honorable members have not forgotten the snub that the elected representatives of the people received from Judge Lukin when he refused to accept any reduction of his salary, and declined to give reasons for his attitude ! That judge was not receiving a small salary like the lower-paid public servant, who gets £174 per annum, but he was paid £2,500 a year as judge of the Bankruptcy Court, and was also drawing a pension of £1,000 a year from the Queensland Government, making his total income £3,500 a year. 3493 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - He was also getting travelling expenses. 3493 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - Yes, at the rate of £2 2s. a day. I would not assist the Government, to give back one penny to the members of the judiciary, but I suggest that it should use the improved financial position to make full restoration of the payments wrongfully taken from invalid and old-age pensioners and public servants and to provide assistance for the unemployed. 3493 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member is not in order in saying that the Government has wrongfully taken money from pensioners and public servants. 3494 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I am merely expressing . my own opinion, and as I voted against the Government's action in that regard, I obviously did not believe that it was right. Depriving an invalid or old-age pensioner of 2s. 6d. a week is tantamount to removing the medicine bottle from a person on a sick bed. Supporters of the Government claim that there has been equality of sacrifice, although judges, despite their enormous salaries, refused to accept a reduction when a heavy sacrifice was imposed upon the most deserving sections of the community. Honorable members opposite, to salve their consciences, attempt to justify the present proposals of the Government-, but I suggest that they should not be carried away by the press propaganda about the remarkably favorable reception that the budget has received in every part of the Commonwealth. No doubt a large number of people imagine that they will get relief because of these proposals; but, though certain sections of the commercial community will gain . by the remissions of taxation, they absolutely refuse to pass the benefits on to the consumers. When I asked the Prime Minister whataction the Government would take against those who adopted that attitude, and whether taxation that had been remitted would be re-imposed if the commercial interests failed to pass on the relief to the general public, he merely said that the Government would then have to reconsider the position. The Government knew full well that no action would 'be taken by it, because it had merely presented its wealthy friends with money which will prove a good investment when the next election occurs. Government supporters will find that those who have received gifts from the public purse will appreciate their action, and show it in an appropriate manner. Perhaps the Government has in mind that it will require funds to conduct the next election campaign. For the reasons I have mentioned, the present proposals are entirely unacceptable to members on this side of the chamber. If the Government desires support of the policy embodied in this bill, its first obligation is to restore the invalid and old-age pension to at least £1 a week, to restore the wages of public servants to the rates prevailing before the cuts were made, and to provide an amount sufficient to ensure that every man, woman and child in this country is provided at least with the necessaries of life. Instead of handing out surplus revenue as gifts to its political friends, the Ministry should have made provision for the relief of the unemployed. The Prime Minister stated that the unemployment figures showed a considerable drop, and that on the 30th June last they were down to 25.7 per cent.; but he did not tell us from what source the figures were obtained. He did not explain that the Commonwealth Statistician's department had at its disposal very vague information based on returns supplied by trade unions throughout the Commonwealth. Only 56 per cent, of them furnish unemployment statistics, and I suggest, therefore, that the figures given cannot be accepted as accurate. Trade unions are established mainly in localities where important industries are carried on, and where employment is more or less stable, so that the percentage of employment in those particular industries would be relatively higher than among the floating working-class population. In arriving at the percentage quoted by the Prime Minister, the department did not take into account, the many thousands of unemployed who are walking the roads to-day, or the enormous number of unemployed persons who are not registered by trade unions. The rules of some unions provide that, when an employee leaves an industry, he ceases to be a member. If the department were asked how much unemployment prevailed in an industry represented by such a union, it would reply, " None at all." Consequently, the data on which the Government Statistician bases his unemployment figures are entirely inaccurate, and honorable members should reject them. The correct amount of unemployment throughout Australia to-day would be, not 25.7 per cent., but from 35 per cent, to 40 per cent, of the adult population. If honorable members desire this measure to provide financial relief they should see that assistance is given to the most deserving and unfortunate sections of the community. Funds should he made available to assist the unemployed, and the Government should restore to the invalid and old-age pensioners the money that has been wrongfully taken from them. 3495 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I am sure that the honorable gentleman does not desire wilfully to transgress the Standing Orders, but I again point out to him that to say that the Government has wrongfully taken money from old-age pensioners is to reflect on the Parliament, because it agreed to the reductions. 3495 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I do not share the view expressed by many honorable members that the pensions paid to the invalid and the aged should be regarded as a charitable contribution by the Government towards the cost of their maintenance. When the pensioners were able to work in industry, they assisted to provide the revenue from which other members of the community received pensions. They, in their turn, are now merely receiving help to which they are fully entitled. The Government's suggestion that this measure will assist the community as a whole is not borne out by the facts. There was a surplus for the year ended the 80th June last of about £3,500,000, and there has been an improvement in the financial position since that date; but the Government has an accumulated deficit of over £17,000,000, and although the Government is budgeting for a deficit both this year and -next, honorable members opposite have not suggested that that should be reduced. The explanation is that the banking interests have difficulty in finding profitable avenues of investment, and they regard treasury-bills as offering the most attractive outlet for their funds. The people are being taxed to meet the interest payments on the accumulated deficit, but not a word has been said about reducing even a portion of it before remissions of taxation are made to big landowners, shipping interests and other wealthy sections. Honorable members opposite do not wish to offend the banking institutions, which are the real governors of this country. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) announced that the Government, would not attempt to dictate to the banks. Of course, it would not, because those in control of the financial institutions ' wield a power greater than that of the Parliament itself. The small measure of relief now to be given to the pensioners has resulted chiefly from the agitation by the pensioners themselves. They have formed themselves into an organization so efficient that the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein) is suffering a continual nightmare about the next election. He and the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) are rushing about, anxious to secure every opportunity to address the members of the association and to misstate the position. 3495 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) said that I had been going to the pensioners' association and making mis-statements. That remark is particularly offensive to me. and I' ask that the honorable member be called upon to withdraw it and apologize. 3495 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - As the honorable member for Lang takes exception to the statement, I ask the honorable member for East Sydney to withdraw it. 3495 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I withdraw it. 3495 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - The remark was also applied to me, but as nobody believes the honorable gentleman- 3495 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Barton is distinctly out of order. 3495 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - If I did not know the honorable member for Barton for what he is, I should probably ask for a withdrawal of his last observation. Reference to the parliamentary records will show that what has been said by the honorable members whom I have mentioned is not correct. Parliamentary privilege may not permit me to state the case, in this chamber, as I would like to state it; but I should relish the pleasure of appearing before the pensioners' organizations in both Barton and Lang, and meeting the honorable members for those divisions in the presence of the people concerned. 3495 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3495 KMW Parkes UAP Minister for Health and Repatriation 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR .- The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) seems to he more concerned about the action of the Government in restoring the cuts in pensions made by his party, than about the amount to be restored. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - Not by my party. 3496 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - Ninety-nine per cent. of the cuts were made by a Labour government. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - No! 3496 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - That is so, with one exception. This Government, recognizing its responsibility to the community, is taking the first opportunity to restore in part the reductions that pensioners were required to suffer in a time of depression and emergency. I am not finding fault with the Labour government for having made the cuts. Everybody knows that it was faced with a desperate situation, and that it did the only thing that it was possible for it to do. 3496 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - It was not the Labour policy to make cuts. 3496 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - Nor is it the policy of this Government to do so. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - Then the honorable member's Government is acting against its policy. 3496 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for East Sydney occupied the time of the House for 45 minutes in delivering his speech. He should now listen to the Minister in reply, and not interject. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - On a point of order, I did not occupy the time of the House for 45 minutes. A considerable part of that time was lost to me through the continued interruptions by honorable members opposite. 3496 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - That is not a point of order. 3496 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The Government in office at the time the cuts were made was faced, as any other government would have been, with a desperate position, and had to adopt desperate measures. I am speaking, of course, of the Commonwealth Government. The Government in office in New South Wales at that time would have made that State bankrupt if it had continued in office much longer. There would then have been no pensions of any kind. It therefore ill becomes the honorable member for East Sydney to find fault with a government which faced its obligations and endeavoured to balance the budget; nor should he find fault with a government which is seeking to restore cuts that were made in a time of emergency. The honorable member for East Sydney should be the last to speak on behalf of returned soldiers. The ex-service members of this Parliament are quite able to look after the affairs of returned soldiers generally; they do not require the members of the honorable member's party to tell them what their obligations are. As Minister for Repatriation I remind honorable members again that all the members of the Repatriation Department are returned soldiers who have the deepest sympathy with returned soldiers generally. The honorable member said that the Government of the day had given instructions for the overriding of certain decisions of the commission. Neither this nor any previous government has interfered with the decisions of the repatriation tribunals. As Minister, I am able to say that no decisions have been overridden. The Minister cannot override decisions that are given in accordance with the legislation of this Parliament. If it were left to me to decide certain matters my sympathetic heart might be touched in some cases. I might give the benefit of any doubt to the soldiers concerned if I had the power to do so, but I have no such power. The decision does not lie with the Minister. Returned soldiers are required to submit their applications first to the State boards, each of which consists of three returned soldiers, one of whom is the nominee of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League of Australia. When the decision of the States boards are not satisfactory, returned soldiers have the right to appeal to the Repatriation Cornmission, every member of which is a returned soldier. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - That does not prove anything. 3496 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 3496 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The procedure ensures that the soldiers will get a fair deal. If the decision of the commission is not satisfactory to applicants they have the right to appeal to still another tribunal which was asked for by the returned soldiers themselves. 3496 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - Definitely no ! 3497 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I am reluctant to take drastic action, but I warn the honorable member for East Sydney that it is necessary for him to observe the call for order. He must not interject immediately after he is called to order. 3497 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - Thank you. 3497 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I hope the honorable member does not intend that remark to be offensive to the Chair. 3497 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - No, Mr. Speaker. 3497 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The appeal tribunal to which I have referred was asked for by the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League of Australia during an agitation that arose while the late Sir Neville Howse was the Minister for Repatriation. While Sir Neville Howse was in charge of the Repatriation Department he gave most sympathetic attention to every case that was submitted to him. He was a most assiduous administrator, and it ill becomes any honorable member to find faultwith a returned soldier of the calibre of Sir Neville Howse, who did noble work for the returned soldiers of Australia. The appeal tribunal is the third before which returned men have the right to appear, and. it also consists entirely of returned men, one of whom was the nominee of the soldiers themselves. I assure honorable members that since I have occupied the position of Minister for Repatriation 3497 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James Mr. James interjecting, 3497 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Hunter had also better take warning. 3497 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - Since I have been Minister for Repatriation I have found the members of the repatriation staff most diligent in discharging their duties and most sympathetic in dealing with returned soldiers. 3497 KYZ 0 0 RIORDAN, David Mr Riordan - Did not the Minister say that if he had his way he would override certain decisions of the commission? 3497 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - Order ! 3497 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I ask the honorable member for Hunter to rise in his place and express regret for having made that remark. 3497 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - What remark? 3497 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member knows perfectly well to which remark I refer. I shall not give him a second chance. 3497 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - I withdraw, but I wish to know to which remark exception was taken. 3497 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The three tribunals to which I have referred give the most careful attention to every case submitted to them. It has been suggested that I have said that I would override the decisions of these tribunals. I made no such statement. I said that if it were left to me to decide certain matters my sympathetic heart might be touched in some cases, and that I might give the benefit of any doubt to the applicants; but I made it clear that I had not the power to do so. I did not use the word " override ". 3497 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - The honorable gentleman said that his sympathetic heart might cause him to give a different decision. 3497 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) said that thousands of returned soldiers now walking the streets should be receiving pensions. He added that many of these men were totally incapacitated. If they were so they would not be able to walk the streets. The words " totally and permanently incapacitated " are clearly defined in the act. I assure all honorable gentlemen that the most careful and sympathetic consideration is given to every application made by returned soldiers for assistance, but, as Minister, I have no power to depart from the provisions of the act. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) said this afternoon that cuts to the extent of £1,300,000 had been made in the pensions of soldiers and soldiers' dependants. That statement was incorrect. During the regime of the Scullin Government, the Prime Minister agreed to the appointment of a soldiers' committee to make recommendations with regard to soldiers' pensions; as a result of the adoption of certain of those recommendations, the pensions of soldiers' dependants were estimated to be reduced by £1,300,000. That amount was mentioned because it was necessary to reduce the Estimates to that extent. It was recommended that the pensions of soldiers should not be cut, and they were not cut. I assure honorable members that the pensions of soldiers' dependants were not reduced by more than £750,000, and the Government is now proposing that £248,000 of that amount he restored. Other relief will be given later by regulation. At the proper time I shall advise honorable members of the nature of this relief, the granting of which will not need parliamentary approval. As Minister for Repatriation, I amparticularly anxious that pensions should be fully restored while I hold office. Honorable members opposite should realize that members on this side of the chamber are as anxious as they are to assist those who have suffered reductions of pensions and in other directions.When salaries and pensions were cut, the finances were in a chaotic state, and the government then in power had no option but to reduce expenditure wherever possible. I regard the budget as most satisfactory, as it provides for increased expenditure, which will give work to some of those at present unemployed, and also for a partial restoration of the amounts taken from those compelled to make a sacrifice. It appears that some honorable members opposite are reluctant to give to the Government the credit due to it, and are opposing portions of this measure merely on political grounds. Mr.Ward. - Is not relief being afforded to some who have not made any sacrifice ? 3498 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - I direct the attention of the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), who said that the Government proposes to reduce the taxation paid by the wealthy section of the community, to the fact that there is to be a flat rate of reduction with respect to income taxation, and that those in receipt of low salaries will, if this measure is enacted, pay a lower rate of income taxation than formerly. 3498 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - That does not make the reductions equitable. 3498 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The will be lower than they have ever been in the history of federal income taxation. The Government believes that those in receipt of small incomes are entitled to special consideration, because in most cases such incomes are also subject to a State wages tax or unemployment tax. As a result of the relief which it is proposed to afford, commercial activity should be stimulated and employment provided. The Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) said last night that, even when government expenditure on works was at its peak, 82 per cent. of the employment in Australia was provided by private enterprise. That percentage cannot be regained unless investors are relieved of the burdens they are at present carrying. Governments do not create wealth ; they spend it. The parliaments of Australia have taxed almost out of existence those who produce the wealth of this country. 3498 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The workers in industry produce the wealth. 3498 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The workers are as essential in industry as is capital. The honorable member for East Sydney should advise those whom he represents in this chamber to work in closer co-operation with their employers, in an endeavour to assist Australia to return to financial and economic stability instead of agitating and striking as many of them are doing to-day. It is to be regretted that only a partial restoration of salaries and pensions can now be made, but it is hoped that before long complete restoration will be possible. I particularly regret that the Government cannot fully restore the reductions made in the pensions paid to soldiers' wives, but I trust that it will not be long before the original rate will again be paid. The honorable member for East Sydney referred to the pensions at present received by ex-soldiers' children, but the flat rate of 6s. now paid is found to he more equitable than when payments were made on a basis of 10s., 7s. 6d., or 5s. a week, Under the present system a man who has four or five children is to receive an extra1s. a week for each child, as compared with the amount previously received, and in such cases the pension will be increased instead of diminished. I deplore the fact that certain public servants who have not the opportunity to reply have been castigated in this chamber. If the honorable member for East Sydney considers that any case has not been sympathetically dealt with I shall, with the limited power I have under the act, see that those concerned receive a fair deal. 3498 KYI Forrest 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE .- The measure now before the House provides for reductions of land, income, and sales taxation. It also affords relief to invalid, old-age, and war pensioners, and to public servants whose salaries were reduced. I congratulate the Government upon the general principle of the budget, and upon the relief to be afforded under this measure. I cannot, however, support the amendment moved to the first line of the Estimates by the " right honorable the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin), or that moved to the motion for the second reading of this bill by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde)The Leader of the Opposition, who was Prime Minister in the previous Administration, is not competent to submit such an amendment, because many of the difficulties which we have for some time been endeavouring to overcome are due to his administration. The Government which was led by the right honorable gentleman not only increased taxation, the cost of living and unemployment, but was also responsible for depreciating the value of Commonwealth stocks, and the credit of Australia. The present Government, which has established confidence in Australia by meeting its obligations, was compelled to impose additional taxation and certain hardships upon the people. How has the surplus mentioned by the Prime Minister been obtained? A good deal of it was unnecessarily extracted from the pockets of the Australian taxpayers, and I submit that the. Government's first duty is to return the money to those from whom it was taken. It must, however, be apparent that our national income has not increased, and that our national debt has not decreased. The future does not appear very bright, particularly when one considers that, with the exception of wool, the prices of our export commodities have decreased, and that there is still a shortage of nearly £100,000,000 in the national income. In these circumstances, one is justified in saying that the Government has extracted too much in the form of taxation from the Australian people. This means that the States, which render a wonderful service to the people, are left in an impoverished condition, which prevents them from carrying out the important functions they are expected to perform. The Commonwealth Government is trying to magnify its importance by remitting taxes which, at the inception of federation, the Federal Parliament was not expected to impose, except in cases of national emergency. Such taxation was never intended. 3499 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - By whom? 3499 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - By the framers of the Constitution. Those who supported the federal system were told that the cost of federation would not exceed £750,000 a year, and that a Commonwealth Government would control only the Postal, Defence, and Customs Departments. 3499 KYX 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr Riley - We have had a war since then. 3499 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - In times like the present it is the duty of the Commonwealth to vacate certain fields of taxation The Government proposes to abandon the entertainments tax. I compliment it on having vacated that field, which, obviously, is one for exploitation by the States. Moreover, since it was never intended that the Commonwealth should impose land taxation, the affluence of the Federal Treasury provides a chance for this Parliament to retire from that field also, thereby giving the States a better chance to balance their budgets. During the debate on this bill, and on the budget, a good deal has been said about restoring to public servants and pensioners portion of the amounts taken from them. I represent, not one section of the community, but all interests in Australia, and I wish to bring under the notice of the House the claims of sections other than those mentioned - sections which have suffered, not only the cuts imposed under the Premiers plan, but those represented by the fall in world prices, which no parliament, either Commonwealth or State, can restore. Their income has fallen by over 50 per cent., yet there is no suggestion that the country should make good their losses. These industries are of paramount importance to the country. Indeed, without them neither the old-age pensioners nor the public servants could be paid. Unfortunately, the Cabinet does not contain one primary producer with a first-hand knowledge of the difficulties confronting the man on the land. Probably that is . the reason why no relief from taxation is to be given to our export industries, which establish the financial credit of this country and enable the Government to meet its obligations. On the success of our primary industries depends our ability to pay for our imports and to meet our overseas indebtedness. Yet the relief from income taxation which is proposed does not directly affect the wool-growers, or the wheat-growers, or the exporters of apples and butter. Of the £123,000,000. taxable income of this country, less than £6,000,000 is produced by the agricultural, grazing, and mining industries, the balance of £117,000,000 being the taxable income of persons in industries which have been built up under hot-house conditions. Any relief from direct taxation will apply to those persons rather than to those engaged in the great exporting industries. During the ten years 1922-32, Australia exported "wheat to the value of £173,991,146, and flour to the value of £55,851,563- a total yield of £229,842,709 from the wheat industry after it had provided the people of Australia with their requirements of wheat and flour. Australia has, therefore, derived from this industry an annual income of approximately £23,000,000. Directly and indirectly, wheat-growing employs large numbers of our people. It also provides freight for the railways and shipping. Yet not one wheat-grower in Australia has made a penny of profit during the depression. On the contrary, large numbers of wheat-growers have become bankrupt, and if those who lent them money could benefit themselves by turning them off the land, they would do so. I do not ask the Government to take into consideration the individual equation ; I speak in the national interest. The wheat-growing industry is worth saving; at least, it is worthy of mention in a national budget which reveals an overflowing treasury because of the over-taxation of the people. Primary products represent 97 per cent, of our exports, and therefore the primary industries must ultimately bear the brunt of both direct and indirect taxes. Fortunately, the wool industry is enjoying increased prices; but since 5 per cent, of the wool-growers of Australia produce 50 per cent, of the total clip, and 95 per cent, of them the other half, it will be seen that the majority of them are men with small capital. For the last two or three years they have produced wool at a loss ; yet nothing is to be done for them. For the relief from land taxation, which, after all, is a capital tax, I am thankful. This tax was imposed by the Fisher Labour Government with the object of breaking up large estates; but, although it has failed to achieve that purpose, like other taxation which brings revenue into the exchequer and enables the Treasurer of the day to magnify his position, it has been continued. Two-thirds of the revenue received from land taxation is derived from city properties; nevertheless, I am glad that an unjust tax is removed even from city properties. Business men have a way of passing on taxation, and when they are relieved from this capital tax, their customers should be given some relief. The man on the land has no opportunity to pass on his taxes; his goods are sold in the open market to the highest bidder, and he has no voice in fixing the price. The price of the goods ' be buys is fixed by the seller, but he does not fix the price of the goods he sells. The fruit-growing is Another primary industry of considerable importance to Australia, in that it provides employment for large numbers of people, and assists to establish our credit abroad. When honorable members advocate that public servants and pensioners should be paid in full, I prefer to take a statesmanlike view, aud compare their position with that of other sections of the community. Before 1 left Perth recently, I received the following letter from a fruit-grower at Bridgetown, in Western Australia: - I am enclosing an account sales for 100 cases apples, one case being lost iu transit. You will sec I get a debit balance of £5 lis. 3d., even with £5 4s. Id. exchange, and as this fruit cost mc 4s. per case to put on rails Bridgetown, it shows that I am at a dead loss on 100 cases of a little over £20. Everybody who handles our fruit gets their full charges and expenses, and the -producer, for all his outlay and work, gets nothing. The agent had no bowels of compassion; he deducted his full commission. The account sales shows a loss on the transaction of £5 6s. 3d., because the man who grew the fruit had no say in fixing its price. The letter continues - There are hundreds of growers getting returns like this, and it puts our industry in a very bad way. It simply means we must cut down our production, as the man who produces most is hit the hardest. Fruitgrowers have been trying to get straw-boards for fruit packing in free, but cannot do so. We could save 12s. 6d. per 1,000 by getting imported cardboards. Shipping freights are too high- 4s. 2d. per case - whereas they used to be 2s. 3d. 3501 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member would do well to make more frequent references to the bill, and fewer references to matters outside its scope. 3501 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - The bill provides for the granting of relief to certain sections of the community. I desire to present the case for other sections which are in greater need of relief. 3501 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - That would be outside the scope of the bill. 3501 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - The export of those apples will establish a credit for Australia in London, but of what value is that to the grower? When we were considering an amendment of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act last year, I referred to the equity of the Government's proposal to reduce pensions to 15s. a week, but urged that the inquisitorial features of the measure should be deleted. I pointed out that the legislation would prove most costly to administer and cause irritation and heartburn to pensioners. I also mentioned the case of a pensioner who had told me that he would prefer payment of a straight-out 15s. a week under the old terms rather than 17s. 6d. under the conditions then proposed. I am pleased that, in this hill, the Government seeks to modify the harshness of its previous legislation. The following table gives an interesting comparison of fluctuations in the basic wage and rates of pension paid since 1910, when the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act was introduced. The percentage of the pension to the basic wage is of particular significance: - When the basic wage fell to £3 3s.11d. in 1932, the Government proposed to reduce pensions to 15s. Had it done so, the proportion of the pension to the basic wage would have been 23.4, or practically the same as it was when the wage was 20s. in 1925. When the proposal of the Government is given effect and the pension is made 17s. 6d. a week, the basic wage being £3 3s.11d. a week, the value of the allowance to pensioners will reach high water mark. It must be remembered that the proposal of the Government is based on the cost of living; and, after all, the basic wage is determined by the Arbitration Court in accordance with fluctuations of the cost of living. I should be as glad as any other honorable member to give pensioners as much as was reasonably possible, but among the many laudatory remarks on the budget that appeared in the British press I direct the attention of the Government to this note of warning that was sounded in the London Morning Post- Don't get flushed with the idea during affluence, and return to those expensive services that were untenable. It would be a good thing if the Government and honorable members generally were to remember that, in the past, Australia set up standards of living which were untenable, and are the chief cause of the greatamount of unemployment that now exists in this country. We have not kept down to a basis of sincerity. I have here a series of articles on Japan which were written by Professor A. C. Y. Melbourne, of the Queensland University, as a result of his investigations in the East. This gentleman wrote - In some ways the economic policy of Australia is a historical accident. The gold discoveries of the nineteenth century established high rates of wages and a high standard of living which Australia has persistently endeavoured to maintain. The gold discoveries attracted many people who failed to find employment in existing industries. To provide for them protective tariffs were adopted, manufacturing industries were gradually built up, and the new immigrants were absorbed. Consequently, long before the population of Australia was numerous enough to justify an entry on large-scale production, manufacturing industries were organized on a non-competitive basis. The cost of living was raised throughout the country, and the primary industries, which derived little profit from protection, were forced to pay higher prices for all equipment and stores. Professor Melbourne then touched upon the humanitarianism of Australian legislation. I concede that that is a grand spirit if one can pay for it, hut it is vulgar and wicked to build up high standards of living on borrowed money. The professor proceeded - The burden has been increased by the general humanitarianism of Australian legislation. The maintenance of a comparatively high wage standard and the general reduction of hours of work have so raised the costs of production in manufacturing industries that Australian manufactured goods cannot be sold in competition with the manufactured goods of other countries in the neutral markets of the world. Consequently, goods exported from Australia are produced almost entirely by the primary industries, although these also are burdened with the high costs incidental to the protective system - the high cost of wages, the high cost of equipment and stores, the high cost of internal and coastal transport. In fact, in these days of falling prices, Australian primary industries are finding it increasingly difficult to pay their way. When such an eminent Australian writes in that strain, it is time that the Government took stock of the position. It is the lack of perspective by what I may term a city ministry that has caused the great State of Western Australia to become heartbroken and wish to separate from the federal partnership in order that it may be free to develop its wide expanse of territory on economic lines. Continuing his article, Professor Melbourne declared - Actually it is difficult to discover any scientific principle in the Australian tariff law. 3502 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member will admit that during the last few minutes his remarks have been outside the scope of the debate. 3502 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - Would my purpose be made clearer if I were to explain that in the paragraph which I had just begun to read, Professor Melbourne referred to the subject of invalid and old-age pensions, the high standard of living in Australia, and our few hours of labour, all of which have tended to increase the cost of living? 3502 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member will realize that it is not what Professor Melbourne has written, but what the honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) has to say upon the bill, which concerns the Chair. 3502 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - I have a more profound faith in the opinions of Professor Melbourne than I have in those expressed by any honorable member or myself, and I thought that the House might benefit by hearing a little of what this learned gentleman has placed on record. Taxation which retards the development of Australia is unjustified, and, indeed, most dangerous. The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) declared that he opposed the sending of any Australian to the Great War, and would not support any other war in which this country participated. Probably he would be prepared to go to the DisarmamentConference at Geneva to present the case for Australia. He would there sit cheek by jowl with the representatives of Japan, Belgium, France, and Germany, countries which have a population of about 400 to the square mile, whereas the density of Australia's population is only 2.21 a square mile. 3502 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - The honorable member will not help Australia by speaking in that strain. 3502 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - If I could get the honorable member and his colleagues to realize the facts I feel sure that they would amend their defence policy and be persuaded that, if we are to hold this country, it must be adequately defended and more fully occupied than it is to-day. Although it is generally acknowledged that Australia is capable of maintaining a population of from 100,000,000 to 200,000,000 people, we can as yet muster only about 6,250,000. We cannot hope to remain in undisputed possession of this, the finest country in the world, unless we show a little friendliness in our trade relations with other countries and unless we abandon standards of living for which we are unable to pay. A few years ago, when the public servants realized the difficulties of the nation they readily acquiesced in the Government's proposal to cut salaries, regarding that sacrifice as their contribution towards the rehabilitation plan then adopted. I am therefore somewhat surprised that some of them, at all events, are now so anxious to have those cuts restored, because no section of the community has truer realization of the actual position than have our public servants. But I prefer to believe that this agitation for a restoration of the cuts is the outcome of activity on the part of a limited number. Certainly it is not in harmony with the principles of the Premiers plan that all sections of the community should bear a fair share of the burden of rehabilitation. "Why spoil the scheme now ? Why not continue with sound economic proposals to bring down the cost of living so that the purchasing power of money in the pockets of the people will approximate 'its former level ? Apparently the intention now is to get back to the extravagant standard of a few years ago, with the result that there will be further borrowing, and excessive taxation on the people will be continued. I ho23e, in the interest of the nation, that the Government will take speedy action to assist the important wheat industry, because harvesting will commence in some areas within the next six weeks, and the farmers are in urgent need of help. I should have nothing to say with respect to the wheat industry if those engaged in it were on the same footing as other producers in this country. They are not in that more fortunate position, because they are called upon to sell in open competition on the world's market and are forced to buy their requirements in the highest market in the world. The wheat-growers cannot be expected to continue production under these unfair conditions. Their industry is all important to the Commonwealth. Recently the Government entered into an agreement with other wheat exporting countries to restrict exports from Australia for the next two seasons. That being so, it is clearly the duty of the Government to finance the wheat-growers in respect of the 30,000,000 or 40,000,000 bushels surplus over and above the export quota provided for in the agreement. 3503 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I cannot allow the honorable member to continue along these lines. 3503 KYI 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr PROWSE - Surely in the discussion on this Financial Relief Bill I am entitled to ask the Government to extend relief to the wheat industry. 3503 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable gentleman will have ample opportunity to do so during the debate on the budget. 3503 JUD Lang 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr DEIN .- I should have thought that every honorable member would be ready to give to this bill his blessing, but, remarkable to relate, if one may judge from the observations made, some honorable members are disappointed because, a3 a result of wise administration during the last twelve months, this Government is in a position to make, in some cases, total, and in other cases, partial, restoration of the cuts made by the former Government in social services and salaries. All honorable members, and not merely the noisy section represented by the Lang Labour party, genuinely desire the restoration of the whole of the cuts, believing that, as they were the result of emergency legislation, complete restitution should be made at the earliest possible moment. The Government has taken a step in the right direction, and I hope that, if our financial position continues to improve, there will he complete restoration of all social services and salaries in the not distant future. I was delighted, as was also every honorable member on this side of the House, to know that the Government was in a position to give substantial relief to all pensioners. Certain amendments will bo submitted' when the bill is in committee, but I feel sure that we shall never have pensions legislation worthy of this Parliament until we scrap the present act. Anomalies and injustices have been allowed to remain in it since its introduction 23 years ago, although we heard little about them until a few months ago. Some honorable members have sat in this chamber year after year and allowed the payment of pensions to persons who were not entitled to receive them, and have done nothing for many others who should have drawn pensions. Apparently they were not sufficiently interested to direct attention to the anomalies in order to have them rectified. To-night the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) cited several instances of injustices that are being perpetrated under existing legislation. It may not be out of place to remind Him that those anomalies were in the act while he was a Minister in the Scullin Government, yet he made no attempt to have them removed. Presumably he was not then sufficiently interested to mention them. I refer particularly to the provision relating to superannuation payments in connexion with the assessment of pensions. This provision has always been in the act, but to-night, for the first time, we heard the honorable member for "West Sydney raising objection to it. Another provision to which I object is that relating to the surrender value of life assurance policies. This is another anomaly which inflicts a great injustice on those persons who endeavour to provide for their old age by insuring their lives, only to find that the surrender value of their policies is taken into account and their pension payments reduced accordingly. Hitherto there has been no objection to that provision from the noisy element in this chamber. Still another anomaly is contained in that section of the act relating to the property qualification of applicants. This provision enacts that a person possessing and occupying a home of any value, be it even £7,000, may receive a full pension, whereas another applicant who may own but not occupy a house of the value of £400 is debarred from receiving a pension. To me that is not right. To show how harshly the act works, I shall give a specific case. A constituent of mine, after the loss of his wife a couple of years ago, was obliged to live in Sydney with his daughter. "While he occupied his own home he was in receipt of the pension, but immediately he took up his residence in Sydney it was withdrawn. That is an injustice that should not be allowed to continue. The honorable member for "West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) also referred to the hardship suffered by a person who owns £400 worth of nonrevenueproducing property, such as vacant land. Instances are known of persons with absolutely useless vacant land who have had to live in a state of starvation because of its having been valued at £400. The honorable member did not attempt to remedy that anomaly while he was a member of a former Min- istry, But for political motives the whole of these anomalies have been given frequent publicity only within the last twelve months. I have been criticized for having attended meetings of pensioners' associations, and have been charged with having made incorrect statements to them-. All such visits have been made by me as member for the district, and I have shown courtesy and decency by confining my activities to my own constituents, before whom I have placed a true version of the facts, setting out my own attitude truthfully and honestly. In addition, however, I have corrected some of the contemptible, spiteful, harmful, and untrue statements of members of Parliament who owe allegiance to the party to which the honorable member for "West Sydney and his colleagues belong. I repeat that I shall not be satisfied until the Pensions Act is a worthy one. Difference of opinion exists as to whether the pension is a charity or a right. If it is a right every individual above the stipulated age should receive it; hut it cannot be so regarded when it is granted to one citizen and denied to another who is equally worthy of it. Many persons who are in want will not apply for a pension, because they regard it as a form of charity, the mere mention of which lays a stigma upon them. That should not be tolerated. We are a humanitarian democracy, and the matter should be placed on such a basis that the recipient would feel that as a pensioner he occupied as honorable a position as the man who drew wages or superannuation. Some pensioners are so sensitive about having to receive the pension that they have the payments made to them in districts where they are unknown. The honorable member for West Sydney made no attempt to remove such a stigma from our citizens during the' period that be sat on the ministerial bench. I wish to make a brief reference to the provision which makes the property of a pensioner a charge upon the pension. As the community provides the means for the payment of pensions, it is for this House to say what shall be done with the property of a pensioner, upon his death. I had brought to my notice a little while ago the case of a pensioner who had no family, but made no secret of his intention to will his property to. a distant relative in New Zealand. Action of that sort should not be countenanced. The community has a right to at least a portion of a pensioner's assets. A property worth £2,000 should not be exempt from being made a charge upon the pension while another citizen who owns property valued at £400 is denied a pension. Advocacy of such a policy would be inconsistent. It is unfortunate that the present low exemption strikes at the man who provides a home for himself and his wife in his old age, as well as the man who insures his life; but, provided a reasonable exemption were allowed, I should not protest against its retention. I admit that the Scullin Government was forced by the financial position which confronted it 'to take drastic action, but I cannot escape the conviction that superannuated public servants were the greatest sufferers, in that many of them were reduced to a status below that of an old-age pensioner, notwithstanding the fact that for many years they had indirectly contributed to the payment of old-age pensions and had made a direct contribution to the superannuation fund. I .am delighted, therefore, to learn that in their case complete restoration is to be made. I also welcome the proposal to restore partially the benefits withdrawn, from . those who are in receipt of war pensions. I am pleased that the Government has found it possible to make further remissions of taxation. By lowering the cost of living, this remission will confer additional benefits on those who are having restored to them a portion of what had been taken from them. I hope that the time is not far distant when the Government will be able to restore all the cuts that have been made during the last couple of years. 3505 JNP Oxley 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr BAKER .- The purpose of this bill is to give effect to certain promises which the Treasurer made in his budget speech, and for that reason some matters to which I might have referred may more appropriately be left until we are considering the budget itself. For the same reason comment on the failure of the Government to make certain necessary adjustments in accordance with altered circumstances may be deferred until a later period. It is necessary for us to realize that the Government, at the end of the last financial year, had a record surplus, not £3,500,000 as was stated, but actually £7,000,000. According to publications which support the Government, the surplus of £3,540,000 was the greatest achieved by. any government since the inception of federation. The position was, however, that not only did the Government provide in the last budget to give back an amount of £1,200,000 by way of sales tax remission, but at the end of last November, out of the surplus which had then accrued, an amount variously estimated by different newspapers supporting the Government at from £3,500,000 to £4,000,000 was remitted to other taxpayers. When the previous budget waa being discussed, the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) stated that it was necessary to make certain cuts in social services in order to balance the budget; that unless those cuts were made, it would be impossible to make revenue balance expenditure. Various members on this side of the House accused the Government of having produced a faked budget, and I remember that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) was taken to task for having said that the Government had deliberately faked its budget. The fact remains that the budget was faked either deliberately or because the Government did not know how to do its job properly and the Treasurer was incompetent. At first sight some persons may be inclined to praise the ability of the Treasurer in producing so large a surplus, but a surplus is as much proof of the Treasurer's incompetence as is a deficit. It is very easy for a Treasurer, who wishes to be acclaimed by the unthinking as a financial genius, to budget for a surplus. "We accuse the present Government of budgeting for the purpose of obtaining cheap popularity; of deliberately arranging its financial affairs so that it would be able substantially to reduce taxation, while restoring but a small part of the cuts which it had made under the Financial Emergency Act. In the present budget, taxation remission will amount to £7,490,000 annually. For the remaining portion of the current year the remissions added to those announced in November last will amount to only £5,500,000, but, calculated on an annual basis, these taxation remissions will in future amount to practically £10,000,000. At the same time, increased expenditure will amount to not more than £1,658,000, only part of which represents the restoration of cuts already made. Yet, despite the fact that the Government is thus casting largesse to its friends, there are still malcontents ready to criticise it because they believe that no matter what benefits the taxpayers receive, they should get still more. We are inclined to overlook the fact that we are paying a million pounds a week in interest on borrowed money, and that this interest must be raised by taxation. Many of the people who are complaining because they have to pay taxes, are the very ones who have benefited by the expenditure of the borrowed money and are now benefiting by the receipt of interest, but that point is never referred to when the accounts of various wealthy companies and banking institutions are presented. If any reductions of taxation are to be made, the benefits should be first given to those who have suffered most, and among those I include the pensioners. They have been taxed to the extent of 5s. in the £1, because, whether we call it a reduction of pension or a tax, the fact remains that their incomes have been lowered from £1 a week to 15s. a week. The same applies to the public servants, whose incomes have been reduced by 3 per cent. in the case of the lower-paid officers, to 25 per cent. in the case of the higher-paid men, apart from the cost of living reduction of £8 a year. That reduction is just as much a tax as is the income tax or the land tax, and the public servants are as much entitled to consideration as is any other section of the community. The Government has made a great boast of restoring old-age pensions to 17s. 6d. a week, and thereby has tacitly admitted that the pension was, in fact, reduced to 15s. a week. Only in exceptional cases were pensioners earning 2s. 6d. a week or less entitled to receive 17s. 6d. a week. There is nothing in this bill increasing the income limit under which the maternity allowance becomes payable. This is a point which should receive the consideration of the government, especially as the reduction was regarded as being in the nature of an emergency provision. The public servants are to have restored to them only £550,000, although the reduction of their salaries was, to all intents and purposes, a sectional tax imposed on citizens who are also subject to sales tax, income tax and all other forms of taxation. In this regard, I desire to give credit to the Labour government of Queensland under the leadership of Mr. Forgan Smith. That government was the first to restore to public servants the automatic increments which had been withheld since the introduction of the Premiers plan. Not only has the annual increment for this year been paid, but the increment for last year is also to be restored. The cost of living reduction of £8 which was made last year from the salaries of public servants was estimated to save the government £240,000. This year that deduction of £8 a year is to be restored, together with 2½ per cent. of the financial emergency cut. However, it will be twelve months before the public servants regain the £8 deduction which was lost, and, at the end of the present year, they will merely have obtained the £8 for this year, and regained the cut which was made last year. They will not be any better off, despite the statement of the Government that they are receiving an increase of2½ per cent. 3506 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - In real wages. 3506 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr BAKER - I do not see any difference between wages and real wages. The proposed alterations of pensions legislation will not even restore the position of the pensioners to what it was prior to the introduction of the last budget. The Government is keeping in the act a section which received the most bitter criticism from all parties, even from members of its own party. Under that section the pension is treated as a virtual loan, to be collected from the estate of the pensioner upon his * or her death. Honorable members will remember the history of that legislation. The first suggestion of the Government was to reduce pensions in every instance by 2s. 6d. A number of the supporters of the Government, realizing that that wa3 an obvious attack upon a weak section of the community, rose in revolt, and as a result an alternative scheme was arrived at, under which the Government increased the pension above 15s. if the recipient were not in receipt of an income of more than 2s. 6d. a week ; but, in addition, upon the death of a pensioner, the Government would have first call upon any estate left by him for the amount of pension received since the 1st October of last year. That provision was given effect, and I 'believe that it has operated more harshly upon the pensioners than would have been the case had the first suggestion of the Government, to reduce .the pension in every case by 2s. 6d., been accepted. A few months after that legislation came into force, the Attorney-General (Mr. Latham) announced that pensioners who surrendered their pensions prior to the 31sit December last would not be called upon to refund any payments, but that pensioners who surrendered their pension after that date would be required to repay only the amount of pension, received since the end of December. We on this side of the House are always pleased when improvements, no matter how slight, are made in this legislation, but I draw the attention of honorable members to the fact that for months past the pensions department has been carrying out the instructions of the Attorney-General, despite the fact that there has been no legislation placed on the statute-book to empower it to do so. Surely, if the Government wishes to vary the intention of .the act, it should ask this Parliament to pass legislation so that the pensions department may act in strict accordance with the law. The section of the act relating to the support of pensioners by their relatives is not being repealed, and while at first sight it may seem only right and just that relatives should be called upon to contribute to the payments of pensioners, the position is that, under the act as amended twelve months ago, any contributions by relatives must be paid to the pensions department, which recoups itself to that extent. If, for example, a pensioner is receiving 17s. 6d. a week, and a relative is contributing 10s. a week, the department merely pays 7s. 6d. a week in order to make up the full amount of pension, whereas, prior to this legislation, such a pensioner would have received a pension of 17s. 6d. plus the contribution of 10s.. In that way the Commonwealth revenue has benefited considerably. This Government, which at one time was so enthusiastic about balancing the budget, is now budgeting for a deficit. The powerful government press, which only a few months ago was loudly advocating the balancing of the budget, is to-day applauding the Government for budgeting for a deficit. Obviously, the interests which decide the policy of this Government have not the slightest regard for consistency and the Government's one ambition is to administer this country for the benefit of those who placed it in power. Some time ago Cabinet appointed a committee to consider alterations and amendments to the pensions legislation, but it was noticeable that most of the members of that committee were honorable members whose seats are not by any means safe. Those honorable members were so enthusiastic, not- about the pensioner, but about retaining their seats that they gave to the press a statement containing four or five suggested alterations in the pensions legislation. Those suggestions are conspicuously absent from the budget and it is obvious that the recommendations of the committee have been completely ignored by the Government. According to the budget speech of the Prime Minister, there will be an increase of £635,000 in pension payments for this financial year, but on checking the figures I find that only an additional £229,000 is provided for this purpose. That, I believe, is easily explained. The increase of the pension by 2s. 6d. should amount to £635,000 per annum, but the Government, during the next twelve months, will receive an additional revenue of several hundreds of thousands of pounds by retaining in the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act the provision under which payments are refunded to the department from the estates of deceased pensioners. 3508 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - That is not the explanation of the discrepancy. 3508 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr BAKER - There may be another way of accounting for it. From week to week, and from year to year, the amount that must be repaid from the estates of deceased pensioners must increase. Over 12,000 persons surrendered their pensions as a result of legislation enacted at the instance of the present Government. The Prime Minister stated on Friday last that many thousands who might ordinarily have been expected to apply for pensions this year have not asked for, them. It may be estimated that about £750,000 has thus 'been saved, owing to the harsh provisions inserted in the act by the Government last year. That is why it does riot accept the suggestion of the Country party and the Labour party for the repeal of the provision under which the amount paid in pension is recoverable from the estate of the pensioner at his death. Of course, Ministers will contend that the reason why many persons have not applied for the pension is that they are not entitled to it; but there has always been provision on the statute-book by which those who improperly obtained pensions might be prosecuted, and the Government has not made much effort to tighten up that legislation. Aged persons who are in very poor circumstances and are obliged to retain their pensions, know that upon their death their homes will not pass to the members of their families. Those who have been able to do so have surrendered their pensions. The Government has also placed in the bill a proposal that pensions shall be gradually increased from 17s. 6d. to £1 a week, but as this increase cannot be effected until the first payday in the next financial year, at the earliest - and probably it will never be effected - the proposal is illusory. Although the intention, no doubt, is to make many of the pensioners 'believe that they will soon obtain £1 a week, in all probability years will elapse before the cost of living will rise to such an extent as to bring about an increase in the pension beyond 17s. 6d. a week. In recent months, an intensive campaign has been waged for the abolition of the federal land tax. In order to appreciate the position at which we have now arrived in regard to this tax, it is necessary to remember that some years ago Crown leaseholders were granted exemption from land tax. The federal land tax was then lowered by 20 per cent., and following that came further reductions of 10 per cent, and 33-J per cent. The present proposal of the Government, if adopted, will result in bringing the land tax down to 36 per cent, of the amount payable a few years ago. This impost was not levied as an emergency tax, but it is now to be reduced in response to the intensive propaganda carried oh in favour of its abolition or reduction. I am reminded of a similar campaign a few years ago for the reduction of costs in industry. Anti-Labour members declared that there was no intention to reduce wages, hut it was not long before wages suddenly dropped. 3508 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr Nock - Could they have been maintained at the previous level? 3508 JNP 0 0 BAKER, Francis Matthew Mr BAKER - The standard of living enjoyed by the people of Australia was then something to be proud of, and the Opposition made every effort to maintain it. Seeing that the world is becoming wealthier year by year, and there is an abundance of all the things required to meet the needs of mankind, it is foolish to contend that our standards of living should be lowered. The time is, perhaps, not far distant when people will look back to the present parliamentary debates throughout the world, and find it difficult to understand our mental outlook. In the middle ages, when the people thought that there was little left for them to - learn, the greatest thinkers argued for hours as to how many angels could dance on the end of a needle. The present economic system is crashing about our heads, yet in a smug, self-satisfied way it is imagined by many that it cannot possibly be altered. A study of history shows that just as feudalism gave way to capitalism, 30 may we expect great political changes before many more years have passed. The test which should be applied to the present situation is whether such cuts as were made in 1931 would have been made had conditions then been as they are now. I assert that if they had been; no government, irrespective of its political colour, would have dared to cut pensions, salaries, maternity allowances, and the like. It is, therefore, clearly the duty of the Government to restore, as rapidly as possible, the cuts that were then made. Debate (on motion by Mr. E. J. Harrison) adjourned. 3509 Adjournment Sittings of the House. 3509 KXQ Warringah UAP Postam aster-General 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. I intimate to honorable members that as it has not been found possible to make the necessary arrangements for the House to meet on Tuesday of next week as was at first intended, honorable members will not be asked to re-assemble untilWednesday of next week. But the sittings will begin on Tuesday of each succeeding week. 3509 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY . - This announcement of the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) is hardly in keeping with that made by the Prime Minister last week. I took the opportunity on that occasion to endeavour to ascertain the mind of the Government in regard to the sitting days for the remainder of the session, and I was informed that from next Tuesday the House would meet four days a week. Consequently, I, and, I suppose, other honorable members, cancelled arrangements which had been tentatively made for meetings next Monday night. I suspect that the reason for this alteration is that there is a good deal of heart-burning among honorable members opposite on certain matters of government policy. We are entitled to know why the Government has altered its programme. 3509 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - The honorable member is not the Leader of the Opposition. 3509 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I have as much right as the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Holm an) to know the reason for this alteration. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) said quite definitely last week that honorable members would he called together on Tuesday of next week. What arrangements has the Government found it impossible to make in this connexion? In view of what has occurred, it seems to me that we shall have to accept future statements of the Prime Minister on this subject with a certain amount of reservation. The right honorable gentleman made his statement deliberately, and not on the spur of the moment. Why has the change been made? 3509 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - There are eight rebels in the ministerial party. 3509 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - That may be so. Honorable members are entitled to a fuller explanation of this change of front by the Government than has been given to them so far. Our arrangements have undoubtedly been seriously interfered with, and that is not in the best interests of honorable members generally. I protest against this action of the Government, and repeat that in the future we shall not be able to take altogether seriously statements by the Prime Minister regarding the business and sittings of the House. Mr.ARCHDALE PARKHILL(Warringah - Postmaster-General) [10.57]. - I realize that the 'altered arrangements may cause some little inconvenience to honorable members, and I frankly regret that this change is necessary; but, as I have said, the Government has found it impossible to make the necessary provision to enable Parliament to meet on Tuesday next. 3509 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - We are entitled to know the reason for the change, and to make a protest against it. 3509 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - The honorable member makes his protests on every trivial thing that comes before the House; but I do not think that in this case his protest is genuine.' It has been made simply to show that he is in opposition. 3509 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - I rise to order. The statement of the Postmaster-General that my protest is not genuine is offensive to me, and I ask that it be withdrawn. 3509 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - I withdraw the statement. I regret any inconvenience that the altered arrangements may cause to honorable members, and I assure them that it is unlikely that any other changes of programme will bo made. Question resolved in the affirmative. 3509 23:00:00 House adjourned at 11 p.m. 3510 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 3510 3510 KXD 0 0 WATSON, William Mr Watson asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What was the total deficit in London and Australia at the 30th June, 1933, on our temporary accommodation account? 3510 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - The short-term debt of the Commonwealth and the States in Australia and London was £83,000,000, of which £52,092,160 was on account of revenue deficits. 3510 3510 JVR 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr Nairn asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What amount has been recovered from the estates of pensioners by way of repayment of pension moneys? What is the estimate of such receipts during the financial year 1933-34? 3510 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - The total amount claimed from estates of deceased pensioners under section 52e of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act is £34,299, of which £9,802 has been received, and the balance is in course of collection. No reliable estimate of future receipts can be made. 3510 Mr.Gregory asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What is the amount of the annual saving that has been effected by the conversion of the national debt in Australia, comparing the interest payments in Australia last financial year with those of 1929-30? What proportion of this amount constitutes a saving to the Commonwealth Treasury? What was the annual amount that would have been payable to the British Government for interest and sinking fund on war loan but for the British Government waiving payment for the time being? Is any provision being made for repayment, if requested? What have been the annual savings effected by the recent conversions in England? What proportion of this constitutes a saving to the Commonwealth Treasury, inclusive of exchange? 3510 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons . - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - £7,000,000. £3,100,000. £5,548,000, excluding exchange. The British Government, in accordance with the practice in recent years, has intimated its agreement to postpone payment of both principal and interest for the half-year ended the 30th September, 1933. No provision is being made for resumption of payments. In respect of conversions since 1st July, 1932, the savings are approximately - Interest, £1,280,000; exchange, £320,000. Interest, £316,000; exchange, £79,000. 3510 3510 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Will he state in what industries the Tariff Board has, in the past taken cognizance of the protective effect of exchange in making its recommendations? 3510 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - In industries manufacturing the following: -Galvanized iron, matches. 3510 3510 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Under what act or acts and sections thereof does the Tariff Board make its basis for assessing the rates of duties that it suggests in its recommendations to the Minister? Will he quote, verbatim, the sections above referred to? 3510 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Tariff Board Act 1921-1929. I refer the honorable member to sections 15 and 18 of that act. 3510 3510 KXD 0 0 WATSON, William Mr Watson asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Is the £11,000,000 sterling reserve in London still intact, or has any portion of it been used to meet overseas obligations; if so, how much has been used? 3510 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - The sterling reserve of £11,000,000 is intact. 3510 3510 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice - Is it a fact that four boilers from dismantled war vessels were sold to New Zealand by the Cockatoo Engineering Company for £350 each; and is it also a fact that this firm is receiving all the benefit from all the materials from these vessels? Baa the Government received any payments from the company in respect of these ships; if so, how much? 3511 JWT UAP 1 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - Inquiries are being made, and a reply will be furnished as soon as possible. 3511 3511 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Is it a fact that intimidatory tactics are being used by the present lessees of Cockatoo Dockyard against any one associated with trade unions by refusing to give them work? Is it a fact that cases are pending against the company in the Industrial Court for alleged breaches and flouting of Arbitration Court awards? 3511 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - I have no information which would enable me to answer the honorable member's questions. Inquiries are, however, being made. 3511 3511 KUW 0 0 STACEY, Fred Mr Stacey asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Is he prepared to consider the immediate removal of sales tax from bitumen used for the construction and maintenance of roads by all municipalities, shire councils and district councils in theCommonwealth? 3511 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons . - The proposals already submitted for the relief of the incidence of sales tax represent the full extent to which the Government finds itself able to go at the present time.