1933-10-13 13 1 4 REPS 3511 0 House of Representatives. 1933-10-13 Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. H. Maokay) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 3511 Questions 3511 3511 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - Has the attention of the Minister for Commerce been directed to the serious position of the poultry farmers of Australia? Will the Government consider the granting of a subsidy to the industry or guarantee the export of eggs in shell and in pulp to Great Britain? 3511 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - Representations on this matter have been received from the New South Wales Egg Marketing Board, and a survey of the position is being made, by both the Department of Agriculture in that Stale and the Department of Commerce. 3511 3511 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Is the Prime Minister aware that only 30 of the 2,698 farmers in South Australia, who are working under the operation of the Farmers Relief Act, have been able to meet all their commitments? Will the Government consider the granting of a bounty or other assistance to the industry? As the farmers are in this position notwithstanding the bounty paid by the Commonwealth last year, what will be their statu this year if they are not given further assistance? 3511 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - As has already been pointed out, the whole subject is receiving the consideration of the Government. A definite announcement of policy will be madeat the appropriate time. 3511 JVR 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr NAIRN - In the event of there being a surplus of wheat above the 105,000,000 bushels that may, under the international agreement, be exported by the 31st July next, will the Government provide for an early payment to the growers so that they may not have to stand out of their money until the surplus is exported subsequent to the 31st July? 3511 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - As the Prime Minister has already stated, the whole subject, including the limitation of exports, is now under the consideration of the Government. 3511 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB - Is the Minister for Commerce aware that new season's wheat will be marketed in South Australia in from four to six weeks? Will the Government's statement in regard to the procedure to be adopted in connexion with exports be made by that time? 3511 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - We are aware that time is of the essence of the contract, and accordingly the Government's deliberations are being accelerated. I hope to be able to submit concrete proposals to Cabinet during next week. 3512 Christmas Relief 3512 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - Are plans being made by the Government to afford special relief to the unemployed during the Christmas season, as has been done in each of the last three or four years? 3512 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The honorable member is in error when he says that a special grant has been made by the Commonwealth in each of the last four years. The Government is appropriating a substantial sum which may be utilized for this and other unemployment purposes. The budget figures indicate clearly that the amount to be spent on works from revenue has been doubled, and, in addition, a substantial loan appropriation is intended. If Parliament passes these proposals promptly, the money will be available for relief work prior to Christmas, as well as during the remainder of the financial year. 3512 Annual Report 3512 KYX 0 0 RILEY, Edward Charles Mr RILEY - Is the Postmaster-General yet in a position to state when the annual report of his department will be available to honorable members? 3512 KXQ UAP 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - Since the honorable member last raised this question I have made inquiries into it. Some little time must elapse before the report will be available. As with postal organi zations all over the world, time is required after the close of the financial year to obtain full information concerning the widespread ramifications of the department. 3512 Sale of Property - Parliamentary Etiquette 3512 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr DEIN - In how many cases has the Pensions Department ordered the sale of the property of a deceased pensioner, with a view to defraying the cost of the pension, since the amendment of the act last October? 3512 JWE UAP 1 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The latest information that I have is that in no case has the property of a deceased pensioner been sold by the department. 3512 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr HOLMAN - It has recently come to my knowledge that certain honorable members have contracted the habit of referring to the Pensions Department grievances affecting persons in constituencies other than those they represent. The member for the district knows nothing of the matter until he receives from the department a letter forwarding a copy of its decision. I should like the Treasurer to inform honorable members whether that is the recognized practice of the department. In the event of such a departure from parliamentary etiquette, could not the department be directed to advise honorable members concerned before it has taken action, and thus frustrate any attempt by an honorable member to act contrary to the spirit of parliamentary comradeship? 3512 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I have no personal knowledge of occurrences of the nature referred to by the honorable member. The department, of course, cannot prevent any citizen, whether a member of Parliament or not, from making representations to it on behalf of an old-age pensioner. I should think, however, that the dictates of ordinary good taste would induce honorable members to confine their attentions to their own constituencies. Apparently, there has been an absence of good taste in some quarters. I am afraid, however, that neither the Government nor the department can treat such persons as it has been found necessary to treat the dog "Cæsar" - confine them to a particular area. 3512 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Could not the department be instructed to reply only to the member for the district concerned? 3512 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I do not think it would be right to do so. Any citizen is at liberty to make representations on behalf of a pensioner, and to receive the reply of the department. I shall inquire whether it is possible for the member for the district to be notified when representations are made, so that he may, if he cares, render whatever assistance lies within his power. Honorable members having interjected during the asking and answering of the question, 3513 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I ask honorable members to assist the Chair by refraining from interjecting while a question is being asked and answered. Such interjections are most disconcerting, and detract from the dignity of the chamber. Honorable members should realize that a question rightly belongs to the person who asks it, and that he does not need the assistance of other honorable members. 3513 3513 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN -Has the Minister for Commerce received advice from any of the States as to whether it has passed, or is about to pass, the necessary legislation for the inauguration of a Commonwealth plan for the stabilization of the butter industry? 3513 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - Since I made my last statement on the matter, the position has not altered. The result of consultations between the different States is still awaited. 3513 F4U FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Can the Minister for Commerce say whether the desired legislation in connexion with marketing will be introduced during this session? 3513 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - I have stated a number of times, in reply to questions, that this matter was discussed at the last Premiers Conference, by representatives of all the States and the Commonwealth. That conference resolved that the Premiers of the States, in collaboration with their Ministers for Agriculture, should prepare a concrete proposal for submission to the Commonwealth Government. The representatives of the Commonwealth at the conference promised that any such representations would receive sympathetic consideration. The result of these consultations is still awaited. 3513 3513 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - Has the attention of the Minister for Health been directed to the technical quarantine difficulties that have arisen over the return to Australia from the United States of America of the dog "Cæsar"? In view of the fact that similar difficulties may arise in regard to other animals, even those of great value, will the Government consider the advisability of amending the quarantine law? 3513 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - Because of the danger of introducing disease, the regulations issued under the Quarantine Act prohibit the importation of dogs and other animals from most countries of the world. It is recognized, however, that special circumstances exist in regard to the dog "Cæsar", and these are at present receiving consideration by Cabinet. It is hoped that the technical difficulties will be overcome, and the dog released in the near future. 3513 3513 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr FENTON - Will the Minister for the Interior state whether it is true that the Government is contemplating the construction of a railway between Yass and Canberra? If so, will he give an assurance that, before anything definite is done, a full inquiry will be made into the proposal? 3513 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - No serious consideration has yet been given to the proposal, hut it has been mentioned as an undertaking which would provide work for the unemployed in the Federal Capital Territory and surrounding district. It does not seem likely that the work will be undertaken; in any case, such a project would have to be submitted for the approval of Parliament. 3513 3513 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Dr EARLE PAGE -Has any reply yet been sent to the Government of New South Wales in response to its request for an additional subsidy to assist in fighting the tick menace in the northern parts of the State? 3513 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - My department is in communication with the Department of Agriculture in New South Wales regarding this matter, and it is hoped that a more intensive campaign for the eradication of tick will be undertaken. The Government of New South Wales did apply for an increased Commonwealth grant for this purpose, but Cabinet did not feel justified in placing on the Estimates an amount greater than that provided last year. No increase will be made in the future without the consent of Parliament. Apart from the expenditure of more Government money, more could be done, I believe, by the co-operation of cattle-owners themselves with the Government authorities, and this is the almost unanimous opinion of the local pastoral protection boards. 3514 Motion Formal Motion for Adjournment. 3514 10000 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - I have received from the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) an intimation that he desires to move the adjournment of the House this morning for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, " The urgent necessity fortaking steps to prevent chaotic conditions arising in the wheat industry by financing this season's crop through the Commonwealth Bank to at least 3s. a bushel, and by establishing a satisfactory marketing organization ". Five honorable members having risen in support of the motion, 3514 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. The position of the wheat-growers this year is very grave, and for that reason I have taken this early opportunity to bring under the notice of the Government the need for taking immediate action to assist them. My party has thousands of supporters throughout New South Wales engaged in the wheat industry, not only as growers, but as workers employed in the handling of wheat from the farms to the ships' holds. Now the overseas market for wheat has collapsed, and the livelihood of these people is threatened. This is one of the most important Australian primary industries, and its success or failure has an important bearing on Australia's financial position both at home and abroad. Next month the wheat crop will be ready for "the market, and immediate action to finance the growers should be taken. Honorable members will recall how the growers of citrus fruits were sacrificed because of the delay by the Government in making satisfactory marketing arrangements. At the last moment an effort was made to find a market in London for oranges, but the mandarins were allowed to rot, or to be distributed free in the streets of Sydney. The Government was supposed to have been negotiating an agreement with New Zealand, but time was allowed to drag on, and when the crop was ready the growers found that the New Zealand market had been lost. The experience gained in this respect should be a warning to us not to delay in regard to wheat marketing arrangements. The overseas wheat market has simply collapsed. According to reports published on Saturday, prices have reached the lowest level for the last two years, the Sydney price being 2s. 7½d. f.o.b. or1s. 11d. at country sidings. It is further stated that the Liverpool market was deluged with foreign wheat, German selling at 17s. a quarter, Hungarian at 19s., and Russian at from 20s. to 21s. 3d. There is little likelihood of any improvement in the market for the New South Wales crop coming forward next month. Western Australian wheat, for January delivery at Bombay, brought only 23s. a quarter. Indications are that prices will be still lower, in spite of the agreement entered into by the Government for the restriction of exports, the purpose of which was to stabilize markets and increase prices. Growers have no confidence in the future, and unless something is done to stabilize the market, they will endeavour to dispose of their crops as quickly as possible, thus further disorganizing selling arrangements. Before dealing with the new season's crop, a market has to he found for 4,000,000 bushels still in the silos, and, according to a report in yesterday's newspapers, there is a total carry-over of 15,000,000 bushels from last year in silos and at sidings. The export market for the year ended the 30th June, 1933, absorbed 119,082,536 bushels, but Australian producers missed the peak prices, which touched 3s. 3¾d. a bushel in September, 1932. The highest price this season was 3s. 3d. f.o.b., or 2s. 7d. at sidings on the 7th September.From then on prices declined steadily until on last Friday week, the export price to the producers at country sidings was1s. 9½d. a bushel. Again, on last Saturday, it was evident that buyers were not interested. There was little demand, and there seemed to be a general expectation that overseas prices would decline still further. The price ex silos was 2s. 6½d., which is equivalent to ls. 9£d. at country sidings. The position overseas at the moment is most disturbing, and the offerings of Russian wheat seem to have an important influence on the market. Last week 229,000 quarters of Russian wheat was placed on the British market as against 130,000 quarters for the previous week. There appears to be severe competition among European wheat-producing countries, and also Canada and the United States of America, for the world's wheat market. There can be no stability for Australian producers until something is done by the Government to assure to them a price of at least 3s. a bushel. The American government is threatening to clump a largs portion of its carry-over on the Eastern market at 20 cents, or about lid. a bushel. We are further informed that we have practically lost the market that we formerly had in the East. Since the operation of the Ottawa agreement, circumstances have arisen which have placed restrictions upon other wheat-growing countries, and they have set out to try to dispose of their products in markets about which they had not previously bothered. They have taken advantage of the market in the East, and naturally that has been to the disadvantage of the Australian growers. We are asking that the Government make immediate provision, through the Commonwealth Bank, for the financing of this season's crop up to at least 3s. a bushel, and, in doing that, we are guided by the agreement itself, because, if the Government has any faith in the scheme to which it has subscribed for the stabilization of the overseas market, it should accept our proposal. The agreement states - That prices be calculated according to the average price of all parcels of imported wheat of all grades sold during each week in all parts of Great Britain. The minimum average gold price calculated as above, to be maintained for sixteen weeks before it will be necessary for importing countries to adjust their tariff, shall be 12 gold francs per quintal (220 lb.). According to the Minister's statement, 12 gold francs per quintal is equal to 4s. a bushel sterling, or about 5s. a bushel in Australian currency. As the purpose of the agreement is to establish a price of 43. a bushel sterling, the Minister should be prepared to back it up by accepting our proposal. If the Government is o£ the opinion that the existing banking: system of Australia is sound, and that, the policy it has adopted will meet therequirements of those engaged, not only in primary production, but also in otherwalks of life, it should 'be quite willing to test that banking system by guaranteeing, through the Commonwealth Bank, a price of 3s. a bushel to the wheat-growers. The Government has strongly opposed any suggestion from this side of the chamber for a change in our existing credit system. We contend that the credit resources of the country should be controlled by the people instead of by the private banking institutions which have brought about such ruin and suffering in the country. If the present banking system will not meet the requirements of this country, it will be condemned in the eyes, not only of the wheatgrowers, but also of every other section of the community, and should be superseded by some other system of credit. I urge upon the Government the necessity for setting up a proper marketing organization to handle this season's crop. The implementing of the wheat agreement calls for immediate attention in this respect. Whether we support the agreement or not, we have to accept it, since it has been signed, and will, no doubt, be carried by a majority of the House. There should be no delay in setting up a marketing organization. Honorable members naturally expected that .the Government's proposals for the assistance of the growers would have been submitted concurrently with the agreement, because any delay must seriously affect the small farmers particularly. They, like the industrial workers, have no resources at their disposal to tide them over a difficult period. Even some of the large wheat-growers have had their resources seriously impaired because of the extension of the crisis in Australia, and as a result are entirely at the mercy of the wheat merchants who, we know from past experience, are always capable of regulating the market to the disadvantage of the growers. Those fortunate few who have means at their disposal to enable them to tide over periods of depression such as the present one are in an infinitely better position than the smaller growers, because they can store their wheat for an indefinite time and regulate the market to their own benefit. As the agreement has already been fully considered by honorable members there is no need for me to repeat the figures relating to the quantity of wheat available for export. Some honorable members have indicated their surprise that this motion has been made by my party. We submit that we have an equal right with other honorable members to deal with the problem of marketing Australia's wheat for export. We have supporters in the country a3 well as on the waterfront, and in the transport services who handle this product for export. We do not desire the price of wheat to fall below the cost of production. I am not saying that 3s. a bushel will meet the cost of production, but at least it will be some return to the farmer. The transport of our wheat overseas provides considerable work on the waterfront of Sydney for the people I represent, and it is my object to see that the wheat is exported under proper marketing conditions rather than be allowed to rot at railway sidings. I am as anxious as any one else that the growers should receive the maximum benefit possible in the existing state of the world's markets, because their benefit is our benefit. I place my appeal before the Minister conscientiously and sincerely. I regret that at the outset the fact that this proposal came from the group to which I belong should have occasioned laughter. Our intentions are honest. We love this country as much as do the members of any other political section, and we desire to see it prosper to the advantage of our people in every walk of life. I hope that my proposals will meet with the wholehearted support of every section of the House. 3516 K0A Angas 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr GABB .- I can hardly understand why the motion moved by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) should have met with derisive laughter, unless it was looked upon by some honorable members as one of the party moves on the political chessboard Of course, there is a party influence behind every move in this House ; but regardless of the source of the motion, I welcome this opportunity to place publicly before the Ministry the need of the wheat-growers. Unlike the honorable member for West Sydney, 1. am not now concerned about testing the banking system. My concern is to persuade the Government to hasten its decision in regard to giving assistance to the wheatgrowers. When the budget was introduced I was inclined to think that it was an election budget until 1 noticed that there was no special provision in it for the wheat-growers. Had it been an election budget such a large and important section of the community as the wheatgrowers would not have been overlooked. I place on record a letter which I have received from the Premier of South Australia. It is not marked " confidential," so, in reading- it, I do not think that I am breaking a confidence. It contains official figures for South Australia, and states the position of the wheat-growers much better than I can. The letter, which is dated the 29th September, 1933, reads - In view of the low prices rilling for wheat, and the probability that world prices will not secure to the grower a payable price for his product next year. I would strongly urge you to use your influence in getting the Commonwealth Government to guarantee to the farmer ' at least 3s. per bushel at country sidings for the coming year. I believe the only effective and equitable way of doing this is by means of a flour tax. You are fully conversant with the prevailing conditions in this State, and realize theimportance of the agricultural industry to South Australia. I am convinced that had the farmer received a payable price for his product during the last three years our deficit and unemployment figures would have been reduced by at least 50 per cent. In order that you may understand how precarious is the position of many farmers in this State, I am forwarding a statement of the operations of our Farmers Relief Act. From this you will note that the final incidence of the distribution for the season 1931-32, as compared with 1932-33, was as follows: - " The capital advances not recovered for the 15)31-32 season amount to £47,451, and for 1932-33, £183,161. The total quantity of wheat sold was 8,244.020 bushels for 1931-32, as against 5,065,746 bushels for 1932-33. This was largely due to the failure of the crops on account of rust aud other diseases. As evidence of this, 783,000 cornsacks remained in the hands of the applicants after harvest. In many vases the actual yields were nearly 50 per cent, below the figures as estimated by applicants. The repayments for 1931-32 amounted to £487,142, as "compared with £383,623 for 1932-33. I have communicated with the other State Governments who are interested in wheatgrowers, and understand that they will support my request. In 1932-33, the partial failures of farmers operating in South Australia under the Farmers' Relief Act numbered 1,346, or 49.8 per cent, of the total, while those who had a total failure numbered 144, or 5.4 per cent. Only 39 farmers were able to pay all their creditors, and they represented 1.5 per cent, of the total. Out of 2,698 farmers, only 39 were in a position to meet all creditors. These figures are official, and are, therefore, inescapable. I am deeply concerned as to what will be the plight of the farmers this year if they are not assisted. If the exportation is to be limited this year to 105,000,000 bushels, probably a considerable quantity of wheat will have to be carried over, and I am wondering to what low level the price may fall. There is every justification for the introduction of a flour tax to assist the industry, because, in my opinion, many of the secondary industries are too heavily protected. The fall in the price levels of secondary products has not been proportionate to the drop in the prices received for primary products. I am not particularly desirous of testing the banking system. If considerable inflation would be involved, I should like to examine the proposal carefully before supporting it, but as thu Government is in a position to remit taxation, the wheat-growing section has every claim to financial assistance. 3517 KF9 Kalgoorlie ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN . - I support the motion submitted by the honorable member for "West Sydney (Mr. Reasley). All members of the House who understand the needs of the farmers, particularly those honorable members who are associated with the Country party, know that despite all the talk about Australia having turned the corner, the wheat farmer is in a worse position now than ever. In the farming district in Western Australia, with which I am most familiar, 60 farmers abandoned their holdings last year. Those who are* in touch with the man on the land are anxious that the Government should take action to help him this year. I am not supporting this motion for party purposes. It is essential that something should be done at once. All the talk about economic recovery will mean nothing if the wheat-farmer, fails. -I have no wish to criticize the Government unduly, but I regard its methods as too slow. An old proverb states, " He gives twice that gives quickly." The Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) is fond of saying, " Time is of the essence of the contract," and, if he were as closely in touch with the wheat-farmers as he is with city interests he would force his Cabinet to make an immediate declaration of its policy regarding the plight of the wheat-farmers. A telegram from Canberra published in -the Melbourne Age of the 12th October informed us that the Country party wished the matter to be discussed at the earliest possible moment. The statement continued - The Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) said to-night that he was satisfied that the Ministry would be able to devise a simple plan to dispose of the whole of this year's Australian wheat harvest at a price which would be satisfactory both to the wheatgrowers and to the people of Australia. We are pleased to have that assurance, but it is too nebulous. Definite information should be given. When I asked the Prime Minister last Friday to state the Government's intention, I was informed that it was not the usual practice to make known the policy of the Government in .reply to questions. On other matters honorable members are furnished with replies, but on the vita! subject of assistance to the wheat-growers, so that they may at least make ends meet, information which should have been given months ago is. withheld. A press telegram from Adelaide, dated the 12th October, stated that the South Australian House of Assembly, without dissent, had agreed to a motion that the Federal Government be asked to take steps immediately to ensure to wheat-growers a payable price for grain used for local consumption. The South Australian Government, belonging to the same party as the present Federal Ministry, would not agree to such a motion unless the needs of the farmers were most imperative. A telegram from Perth, dated the 10th October, stated - In both Houses of the State Parliament to"day, the adjournment was moved to direct attention to "the parlous condition of the wheat industry owing to restricted markets awd the consequent low prices for the coming season ". Motions were agreed to urging the F. tate Government ,to negotiate with the Coinmonwealth Government for a guaranteed price sufficient to bring the average price at sidings to 3s. a bushel. That is a most modest request, because 3s. a bushel at the sidings will not pay the grower. Most of the wheat production in Australia is carried on in dry areas, and that is particularly true of Western Australia and South Australia. In such districts, 3s. a bushel at the sidings would not be a profitable price; and, in the circumstances, a guarantee approaching 3s. 6d. a bushel is necessary to enable the farmer to obtain even a living wage. We are told that the position abroad looks unpromising. The Melbourne Age of the 10th August stated - INTERNATIONAL WHEAT POSITION. GENERAL Lack of Confidence. The Lindsey Walker Wheat Company Limited, in its weekly report on the international wheat position, states - "The abundance of cheap offers on the markets of the United Kingdom just now are largely inferior wheat from Russia, Germany and France, but through the very low prices at which this grain is offered the market for all wheat has declined to almost the lowest level that it reached in the depths of the world's depression in 1930. The lifeless European market is causing concern, and the pressure of offers is creating a general lack of confidence. Russian competition is a serious blow for Canada's crop movement, but fortunately some of the Russian wheat is unfit for milling. At the moment the United States of America could make a greater contribution towards restoring confidence in trading by publicly announcing the withdrawal of her policy to subsidize" exports from the Pacific coast ports to the Eastern markets. Private buyers in Japan and China are not likely to purchase Australian wheat while America's subsidized exports remain fi possibility. Sirica America played such ali important part in the staging of the world wheat conference, it. is unfortunate that Australia should at present be suffering most from an obstacle in trading created entirely by the Government of the United States of America. 1 That statement proves that other conntries are awakening to the fact that the farmer needs assistance. In Chicago, wheat futures are' quoted as follows :: - December delivery, 84 i cents (3s. Bid.) a bushel; May, 88g cunts (33. 8§d.) ; July, 80*' cents (3s. 7id.}. The cash price, of number 2 hard winter wheat at New York is 03? cents (3s. 10|d.) a bushel. We are told that in the United States of America the primary producers are in dire distress, yet they are expecting for their wheat 10¼d. a bushel more than the amount which the Commonwealth Government is being asked to guarantee to our farmers. A French philosopher has stated that the parliamentary machine has to be kicked in order to make it. march, and it seems that this Government will not be galvanized into action except by agitation on the part of honor-' able members who are familiar with the wheat problem. Next month harvesting will commence in Western Australia and South Australia, and the farmers there are in a state of suspense. It is of the utmost importance that the Government should make an announcement immediately, and assure the farmers that they will be treated liberally. The Government is proposing remissions of taxation. This shows definitely that the financial position is far better to-day than when the Scullin Government provided a wheat bounty of 4£d. a bushel. I- therefore support the motion. 3518 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The' honorable member's time has expired. 3518 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- I am glad that the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) has been converted and now desires to do something for the wheat industry of Australia. As the honorable gentleman specially mentioned the small wheatgrowers, I urge him to help them by using his influence to ensure that operations should be maintained in the fat lamb industry. It is a great hardship to the small farmers that the present hold-up has occurred. The Government's subscription to the international agreement for the control of the export of wheat is a reason, additional to the desperate plight of the wheat-growers, why the immediate grant of relief to the farmers is imperative. A responsibility now rests upon the Government to do something definite. In the last few days important representations have been made to the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) in the interest of this industry. The urgency of the case has been emphasized, and I believe that the Minister recognizes that the Government should make a speedy decision. In fact, he promised that it would do so. In that respect I regard his reply to the deputation as favorable. The subject must be dealt with early next week - it is unnecessary further to -impress this fact upon the Minister. The wheat-growing industry is of primary importance to Australia, and it is a national misfortune that in recent years the farmers should have been continuously in difficult circumstances. That the tariff policy of this Government is practically one of prohibition is an added difficulty to the farming community. It is true that the Government of the United Kingdom is granting a preference of 2s. per quarter in respect of the wheat which it buys from us, but certain facts in relation to the marketing. of our wheat are disquieting. "While our exports in 1931-32 to Great Britain were 29,500,000 centals, Co Japan 12,800,000 centals, and. to China 18,600,000 centals, our exports to these countries last year, respectively, were 22,000,0D0 centals, 10,600,000 "centals, and 20,100,000 centals. There was a f falling-off in the exports, to Great Britain and Japan, but a slight increase in the exports to China. Unfortunately, in consequence of the agitation in Australia against the importation of certain goods from. Japan, we are likely to lose a considerable proportion of our wheat trade to that country. The honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. A. Green) has pointed out that the dumping of American wheat in the East may also endanger our trade with China. It is possible, too, that, owing to the failure of the Government fully to implement the 'Ottawa agreement, we may receive less consideration from Great Britain than in the past. I emphasize particularly the importance of the wheat industry to Western Australia. Owing to the tariff policy of Australia and Government interference with, and restrictions upon, trading generally, Western Australia has been placed in an extremely unfortunate position. The marvellous development of the wheat-growing industry in that State during the last twenty years has occurred in times when the cost of all farming requirements have been at least 100 per cent, greater than when the agricultural industry was developed in the eastern States. The Navigation Act also has been a contributing factor in this respect. Probably the wheat growing land of Western Australia is not so rich as that of the eastern States, but Western Australia has a most favorable climate, and, in spite of the heavy extra expenses which the farmers have to meet, cereal production has made extraordinary developments. If Australia were pursuing a sound economic policy, the wheat industry would be able to maintain its operations profitably without any assistance from the Government. In the last three years, however, the price of wheat has been definitely on the down grade until to-day it is at its lowest point. The conditions described by the Premier of South Australia apply to an even greater extent to Western Australia. As both the Government and the Tariff Board have declared, that no industry should be carried on without a fair percentage of profit, I ask whether it is just to expect the wheat industry to continue its operations under existing conditions? As assistance is given to manufacturers of every description, and to people engaged in certain primary industries, it is surely reasonable to ask that it shall also he given to the wheat industry which is one of the principal wealth producers in Australia. The Government cannot afford to allow this industry to collapse. It is essentia! that a fair price should be paid to the wheat fanner for his product. I repeat that the action of the Government in becoming a party to the International Wheat Agreement - an action which I believe it did not desire to take - places upon it a definite responsibility to assist this industry. We have made certain recommendations to the Minister, but he may have other ideas for aiding the industry. Only two methods appear to me to be likely to assist the industry, a compulsory pool or a sales tax on flour. The essential thing is that the matter shall be dealt with urgently. I do not believe that wheat can be produced for less than 3s. a bushel. "Western Australia can, perhaps, produce wheat at a tower cost than any of the other States, Wit the general opinion there is that, allowing something to the farmer for his own labour, the cost of production is from 3s. 4.d. to 3s. 6d. a bushel. In view of the extraordinarily low price of wheat during the last few yea.rs, the obligations of Australia under the International Wheat Agreement, and the present disastrous economic conditions of the industry, I urge the Government to announce definitely, not later than Wednesday next, the measures it intends to propose to assist the industry. 3520 KWC Calare 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY .- In view of the fact that the Government signed the International Wheat Agreement on the 25th August, seven weeks ago, we are entitled, without any further delay, to a definite statement of the policy it intends to pursue to assist this vitally important industry. I regret the delay that has already occurred. The operation of that agreement must necessarily increase the difficulty of the farmers in marketing their wheat. The export has never before been controlled, and it is imperative that the Government shall announce the steps it proposes to take in this connexion, and the measure of assistance it is prepared to accord the industry to save it from collapse. It has been said that we are within four or five weeks of harvesting, but in the early districts the farmers will begin to cart their wheat to the railway sidings within a fortnight. It is deplor able, therefore, that no statement of the Government's policy for helping this industry has yet been made. That 3s. a bushel does not represent the cost of producing wheat has been admitted even by honorable members who do not profess to represent wheat g.rowei-3. Yet tens of thousands of wheat growers throughout Australia have been obliged, during the last few years, to sell their wheat for approximately 2s. a bushel at country sidings. This is undoubtedly between ls. 6d. and 2s. a bushel below the cost of production, with the result that the farmers have been dependent, on one government and another for a mere pittance to help them to maintain their operations. One government granted a. bounty of 4J-d. a bushel, and another government subsequently paid a bounty of a few shillings an acre to enable the farmers to carry on. My chief grievance against this Government is that after signing the International Wheat Agreement, it has allowed seven weeks to elapse without intimating to the farmers its policy for assisting the industry. Obviously, something will have to be done to implement that agreement in Australia. Our wheat must be marketed. I say without hesitation that the consumers of this country need not fear the effect of an increase of a few pence a bushel in the price of wheat to enable the farmers to make a hare living. I remind honorable members that in 1920, when the price of wheat averaged 8s. 7. 2d. a bushel,' and the price of flour £18 15s. 6.8d. a ton, the average price of bread in Sydney was 5.9d. a 2-lb. loaf. Comparative figures for 1924 are :- Wheat, 5s. 3½d.: flour, £11 18s. 4d.; bread, 4-Jd.; and for 1929, wheat, 4s. 10fd.; flour, £12 4s. lid.; bread, 5fd. Yet during the last three years, when the average price of wheat at country sidings has been, as I have said, approximately 2s. a bushel, the price of flour has remained at between £7 and £S 10s. a ton, and the price of bread at 5$d. to 5$d. a 2-lb. loaf delivered - a higher price than when wheat was 6s. a. bushel. Is it fair in such circumstances that the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) should ask the Government to guarantee only 3s. a bushel for wheat - a figure which, admittedly, is less than the cost of production ? We are entitled to demand from the Government. which is now the responsible authority in Australia in this matter, that, the wheat-growers be given an opportunity to meet their financial obligations and to harvest their crops. All governments have admitted that our wheat exports are the basis upon which our largest overseas credits are established. If the honorable member for West Sydney is willing to assist to get for the wheatgrowers a price at least equivalent to the cost of production in Australia, he must remember that such a price would necessitate an increased price for wheat used for home consumption and necessarily a higher price for flour. 3521 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - Why does not the honorable member state a fair price ? 3521 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - If the Government will give to the wheat-growers the power to provide the necessary machinery to control the marketing of wheat a price for home consumption will quickly be fixed. We do not want promises of a certain price, unless effective machinery is provided to enable that price to be obtained. All that we ask is that the Government shall introduce the necessary legislation to provide for the establishment of a wheat marketing board with power to handle the whole of the Australian wheat crop and to implement the international wheat agreement recently entered into. Such a board should have the authority to control the export of wheat and to fix a price for home consumption. If that were done, the wheat-growing industry would be placed in a similar position to that of the industries referred to by the honorable member for West Sydney. 3521 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - That would necessitate the establishment of a wheat pool. 3521 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - I suggest the appointment of a wheat marketing board or a wheat pool controlled by the growers. The sooner this and other Parliaments realize that such an organization is necessary, the better it will be, not only for those engaged in wheat-growing, but also for the whole community. The establishment of such an organization has been postponed from time to time by various governments which are afraid to give to the wheatgrowers the right to control the industry and to market their own product. The farmers should demand from Australian consumers conditions similar to those enjoyed by people in other industries. They are not asking for anything unreasonable. On behalf of the Country party, I demand that the Government shall immediately submit to the wheatgrowers of Australia a definite scheme under which they can be relieved of their pressing financial disabilities. Prom time to time, when similar requests have been made, they have been offered a bounty of a few pence a bushel, but such meagre assistance will not place the industry on a sound basis, or assist the growers to meet their obligations which are unnecessarily heavy owing to the inaction of governments. These difficulties have been increased as a result of the international wheat agreement recently entered into, under "which a definite export quota has been fixed. 3521 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - Does the honorable member disagree with that? 3521 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - I dislike it; but I admit that the Government was practically forced into entering into some such arrangement. There is no justification, however, for a delay of seven weeks in determining what measures' shall be followed to assist the industry. Knowing that the wheat is almost ready for harvesting in some districts, and that the growers are confronted with serious difficulties, it is not unreasonable to ask the Government to recognize the extreme urgency of the matter. It should introduce legislation immediately, and co-operate with the States in order that the harvest may be handled in a business-like manner. 3521 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3521 K4X Riverina 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK .- I was very disappointed to find no reference in the budget to any intention on the part of the Government to grant relief to the wheat-farmers. Many letters expressing keen disappointment at the inactivity of the Government have also reached me; but I had hoped that by this time the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) would have disclosed the Government's intentions. Since the international wheat agreement was signed, we have realized that the Australian harvest would be in excess of the export quota agreed upon, and that difficulty would arise in disposing of the surplus. Although no definite statement has been made by the Minister I feel sure that he recognizes that this very difficult problem is urgent. As mentioned by the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Thorby), wheat will be harvested in the early districts in the northwest and be delivered within a fortnight; but as neither the merchants nor the farmers know what arrangements are to be made there is fear of a complete collapse of the market. I believe that the' Government acted rightly in signing the international wheat agreement on behalf of Australia, and I differ from the view expressed by some honorable members in opposition, who condemned the Ottawa agreement and fear that it may have a serious effecton Australian production. When the Ottawa agreement was signed, lamb was selling in London at 3fd. per lb., but to-day the price is 6.7d., showing that we are obtaining excellent results from that arrangement. Under the wheat agreement we cannot expect miracles; we must be patient. I do not admit that it is the responsibility of the Governmentto make any industry profitable; but there is an obligation upon it to see that all sections of the community receive a fair deal, and that this valuable national industry does not collapse. Under the present system, the cost of producing wheat," which is one of our main exports, is excessive. During the last two years the Government has assisted to reduce costs. We appreciate that, but the position of the wheat-growers to-day is infinitely worse than at any other time during that period. Wheat, if valued on a gold basis, is cheaper to-day than it has previously been during the last 4Q years. Although the crops in Canada and the United States of America are comparatively light - the poorest for thirteen years - the continental crops constitute a record both in quantity and quality, and are causing a glut in the world's markets. In the circumstances the Government was justified in accepting the quota provided, and in endeavouring to prevent a continuation of the tragic conditions existing to-day. It will take time to obtain results from that agreement, but something must be done at once; Last season the Australian wheat-growers received Government help, and were assisted by nature. For three yearstheir crops have been well above the average. In New South Wales, the harvest was a record, and the increased returns helped- many wheat-growers to meet some of their old commitments. The time that has elapsed since the agreement was signed has been sufficient to enable the Government to come to a definite decision. The wheat-growers do not wish to go to the Government year after year holding out their hands for a mere pittance. They are entitled to a fair home consumption price, such as is obtained by those engaged in other industries, particularly as they have to produce for export and sell at world's parity. There is also an obligation upon the people of Australia to pay , a fair price for the wheat used for home consumption. Too much political significance is attached to the imposition of a sales tax on flour or to the fixation of a price for home consumption. We should remember that at 2s. 4d. a bushel only one pennyworth of wheat is used in a 2-lb. loaf of bread. The price of wheat does not materially affect the price of bread; rail, charges and millers' and bakers' costs, which include delivery, book-keeping and. bad debts, are bigger factors. If the price of wheat used for home consumption were raised from 2s. 4d. to 4s. 8d. a bushel, the price of a 2-lb. loaf of bread would be increased by about Id. Against that additional charge might justly be placed the prosperity that would accrue, not only to the wheat industry but also to the whole community.As an alternative the Government could control the surplus, but if it should do so, it would also have to provide some cash to enable the growers to carry on. An easier method would be to give to. them the power to control the marketing of their product, and to fix a price for the home market which would not be unfair to the consumers of bread. Wheatgrowing in Australia is conducted as efficiently as it is in other countries, but we are faced with heavy and unavoidable transport charges. The cost of producing wheat has not fallen at the same rate as the price of wheat; consequently the farmers have been getting further behind each year. Superphosphates and machinery are cheaper, and freights in all States, with the exception of New South Wales, have been reduced. The price of power kerosene used in tractors is excessive. It is an absolute scandal that power kerosene is within 3d. a gallon of the price of petrol on which there is a tax of 7£d. a gallon. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) that some of the banking institutions have not played the game in the matter of intereston overdrafts. The Interest Reduction Act compelled the banks to reduce the rate of interest on overdrafts by 22i per cent, on a certain date. They did so, but at the same time they compelled their clients to open new accounts at a higher rate into which they were expected to place every penny they received. That was grossly unfair and contrary to the spirit of the undertaking. Interest on deposits has been reduced from 5J per cent, to 3 per cent., the average being about 3i per cent., but the general rate on overdraft is 5£ per cent. I again urge the Government to give the wheat-farmers power to control their own industry and to fix a price for home consumption. 3523 KV7 Parramatta UAP Minister for Commerce 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART . - During recent days in this chamber a number of honorable members - and the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley), who moved this motion, was not the least among them - have castigated the Government, first, because the budget contemplates a deficit, and, secondly, because it contains no provision for an amount of some millions to meet our war debt to Great Britain, and also because of other omissions from it. To-day, the honorable member has moved a motion which, if agreed to by the House, would make necessary the provision of some further millions of pounds, but he did not tell us how to do all these things and yet balance the budget. People outside this chamber may be somewhat perplexed at finding the representative of a wheat-eating constituency so concerned for the , interests of the wheat-growers; but it is not perplexing to me, for I remember that not long ago, when the honorable member for West Sydney was in my electorate, he professed great concern for the citrus-growers there. Apparently, he has forgotten that not long ago, when speaking in this chamber to a motion for the adjournment of the House in connexion with the embargo against the importation of potatoes from New Zealand, he said that that embargo was a factor which operated against the citrus-growers, and urged, with all the emphasis of his being, that no action should be taken by the Government to remove it, and thus possibly benefit the citrus industry. I see a certain element of "danger in a representative of a wheat-eating constituency purporting to represent the wheat-growers. The honorable member seemed concerned that 19,000,000 bushels of last season's wheat remains in silos or stacks at various places throughout the Commonwealth. Had he doubled that figure he would have been nearer the mark ; but even then, those who know the facts would not be concerned, because they know that this wheat is merely the normal carry-over from season to season. The honorable member justified his request for 3s. a bushel by a calculation based on figures in the world wheat agreement. He referred to that contingent provision in the agreement that, when the international price of wheat reaches 4s. sterling a bushel, the European countries will be prepared to consider lowering the duties on wheat. The honorable member said that 4s. sterling is equal to about 3s. 4d. in Australian currency, and that, on that basis, the 3s. a bushel for which he is asking is a reasonably close approximation. I remind him that 4s. sterling is equal to 5s. in Australian currency. Perhaps, in the light of that information, the honorable member may now desire to review his motion, and substitute 5s. for 3s., and thereby increase the cost of bread to his constituents in West Sydney by about 2d. per 2-lb. loaf. The honorable members for Riverina (Mr. Nock) and Angas (Mr. Gabb) mentioned the omission from the budget of any provision for the granting of assistance to wheat-growers. 3523 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - I said immediate and direct assistance. 3523 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - There is no significance in that. Last year no provision was made in the budget for assistance to wheat-growers, but, subsequently, provision was made for a grant of about £2,000,000. The Government believes that it is yet too early to determine whether the wheat-growing industry will need assistance this year. I suggest that an expectation of automatic annual grants to the wheat industry, or any other industry, is most undesirable. A number of spokesmen for the wheat interests this morning have referred to the annual grants - amounting to £5,500,000 in the last two years - as mere pittances. "When reduced to the bushel equation, the amount may not appear great; but the total is considerable. The Government believes that there is a more excellent way of assisting the wheat industry. Something of a more permanent and recurring nature than the gift of £2,000,000 or £3,500,000 a year is not only desirable but possible; and it has been endeavouring to attain that objective by a reduction of costs which would ensure, hot a transitory, but a recurring benefit. One way by which the Government has consistently endeavoured to reduce the cost of production has been by an increase of the exemptions from sales tax. There is now hardly an article used by the wheat-growers of Australia which is liable to this tax. I know that there are members who will jeer at the idea of the ordinary small wheat-farmer deriving any benefit from remissions of land taxes; but they should know that a considerable number of the poorer wheatgrowers are share-farmers, and as partners with the landlord will participate in the benefits of the remissions. Perhaps the greatest assistance rendered to the wheat-farmers by the Government has been the reduction of interest rates due to the policy it has pursued. The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock), than whom there is probably no more eminent authority on wheat in this House, said about twelve months ago that a reduction of the interest rate on farmers' overdrafts by 1 per cent, would be worth about 3d. a bushel to the wheat-grower. The actions of the Government since it assumed office have resulted in a reduction of the interest rate by 1$ per cent., representing a recurring benefit to the wheat-farmers of Australia of between £3,000,000 and £4,000.000. The Government believes that real assistance can be given to the growers of wheat by reducing the costs of production through the remission of taxation, the lowering of interest rates, and by arranging for the orderly marketing of their produce. I was surprised that the honorable member for West Sydney should have expected the benefit from the world agreement to be already manifest, but as the honorable member for Riverina has already dealt with that aspect of the subject, I pass it by. It may happen, however, that these benefits will be so long delayed that some relief in. the meantime will be necessary; but that is a matter which it is yet too- early to determine. Let me illustrate the difficulty of arriving at a reasonably accurate estimate of the harvest yield. A week ago to-day an honorable member who is well qualified to speak on the subject of wheat estimated that the current year's harvest would yield so many bushels of wheat. He had scarcely finished speaking when another member, equally competent to assess the situation, assured me that his colleague's estimate was wrong by between 10,000,000 and 15,000,000 bushels: At this stage no one can give a reliable estimate of the wheat which will be harvested this year, but in two or three weeks' time it should be possible to do so. On Monday morning next I shall be apprised of the latest forecast of the coming harvest in every State. Surely the Government is entitled to ascertain, as nearly as it can, what the crop is likely to be before coming to a final decision regarding the granting of assistance to the wheat industry. Every one who has any knowledge of wheat-growing, knows that the climatic conditions during the remaining weeks of this month can affect the season's crop, either upward or downward, by at least 5,000,000 bushels. During the next fortnight the climatic conditions throughout Australia may be such as to vary the harvest by 10,000.000 bushels, representing, on present-day figures, about £1,500,000 to the wheat farmers. Whether or not they will get that extra money for their wheat remains to be seen ; but surely that contingency must weigh with the Government when considering whether the taxpayers' money should be voted to assist the industry. It is for that reason that the Government has been reluctant to come to a final decision in this matter. Despite what has been said to the contrary, the present world wheat position is not due to a reduced consumption of wheat, or to a decline of the purchasing power of a stricken world. It is due to- the development of a post-war nationalism which has led European wheat-growing countries, which formerly were good customers of Australia, to depend more upon themselves. For the position which ha3 arisen the honorable member who moved this motion to-day i3 not altogether guiltless, because there is in the action taken by European countries an element of retaliation. The wheat position in the world is truly reflected by the barometer of wheat movements in the principal European countries. In 1930, Italy produced 210,000,000 bushels of wheat; this year that country's production has risen to 276,000,000 bushels. In the case of Germany, the respective figures are 139.000,000 bushels and 203,000,000 bushels. The production of wheat in France has risen from 231,000,000 bushels in 1930 to 338,000,000 bushels this year, an increase of 107,000,000 bushels. Those three countries together produced 580.000,000 bushels of wheat in 1930 compared with 817,000,000 bushels this year. There is no need to look further for the cause of the trouble in the wheat industry. Instead of having to import 62,000,000 bushels of wheat a year, as was the case in 1930, France this year baa an exportable surplus of 48,000,000 bushels. Had there been no international agreement, France would have been free to export that 48,000,000 bushels; but under the agreement that, country has contracted to dispose of not more than 25 per cent, of the exportable surplus. Honorable members will see there an immediate benefit to Australia from the agreement. 3525 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - la the action taken by France in accordance with the provisions of the agreement? 3525 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - It is in. accordance with the text of an undertaking which is a part of the agreement. The Commonwealth Government was moved to give its assent to that agreement because its policy is to grant permanent, rather than temporary, relief to the wheat industry. Some honorable members have denounced the agreement; but this morning the real representatives of the wheat industry in this Parliament have spoken in its favour. They have done so because they realize its value, and are aware that the Commonwealth Government signed the agreement, not because if, was a willing party to its terms, but because it knew that the difficulties which had arisen could not otherwise be overcome. The honorable member for West Sydney referred to a press report that the United States of America was about to unload from 30,000,000 to 35,000,000 bushels of wheat in the East and other portions of the globe. That may be perfectly true. But it must be remembered that for years the United States of America has been exporting large quantities of wheat yearly to Eastern countries, and, though this agreement still permits that- to be done, it restricts the total wheat exports of that country to 47,000,000 bushels. Had the agreement not been entered into, the United States of America could have unloaded its abnormal surplus of 270.000,000 bushels of wheat in the East, or elsewhere. Surely that is sufficient evidence of the advantage that is likely to accrue to Australian wheat-growers from the agreement. I repeat, the Government is not at all unmindful of the position of wheatgrowers in Australia, or of the urgency of the matter. Already I have made arrangements to meet representatives of the industry and of financial institutions in Sydney to-morrow morning, and in Melbourne on Monday, and, as I indicated in reply to a question to-day, the subject will definitely be placed before Ca'binet during the ensuing week. This party is as much concerned about the position of wheat-growers as is any other party or honorable- member, and it will ensure that a fair deal is given, not only to wheat-growers, but to every other section of the community. 3525 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN .- This debate has been a very useful one. It would have been even more useful had the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) given to honorable members some idea of the scheme by which the Government intends to assist wheatgrowers, and which, he declares, is to be of a permanent nature. The matter is urgent, and does not permit of delay. I admit that- the system of annual grants to wheat-growers is neither a permanent nor sound remedy, but expediency and urgency compel us to adopt it. Having cogitated on the subject for nearly a year and a half, and evolved what it terms a permanent plan, the Government, through the Minister for Commerce, should have taken the House into its confidence, and outlined its scheme. I regret that, a Minister should indulge in the practice, all too common in this chamber, of denying to private members the right to initiate a debate and questioning their sincerity. The Minister sought to discount the criticism by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) by saying that he represents a wheat-eating constituency. That criticism is equally applicable to me, but I yield to no honorable member in my desire to help the wheat-growers. After all, the basis of the whole structure of our nation must rest upon the stability of its industries, both primary and secondary, its financial edifice, and the employment of its people. An honorable member whose vision is not broad enough to see the advantage of making every industry stable, irrespective of whether it is situated in the town, or country, is not fit to be a member of the National Parliament. The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock) dealt in a practical way with various aspects of the subject, and rightly stressed the "-burden of interest. I am glad to have hi.s support of my contention that the private banks have not played their part in assisting the Government to rehabilitate Australia. The Minister has taken up that challenge, and he stated nhat, as a result of the action of the Government, bank interest on overdrafts have been reduced by 1-J per cent. [ have carefully followed the overdraft rates that have been charged by private banks, and I invite the honorable gentleman to prove that, since this Government assumed office, the farming community has enjoyed an average reduction of li per cent, on overdraft rates. I admit that, here and there, accounts have been picked out for that benefit, but it has not been general, and I do not know one private bank that has played the game to the nation in its fight to restore prosperity, as the Commonwealth Bank has done. The report of the Auditor-General of South Australia shows that, in four typical wheat-growing areas, interest represents 50 per cent, of the cost of production. The Minister also referred to the disabilities due to the development of a postwar nationalism. There is not the slightest doubt of that. The imports of three European countries have decreased by 200,000,000 bushels a year, and the Minister suggested that this was the result of retaliation, presumably, for high tariffs. In the case of Germany, the increase of wheat production is merely an act of national preservation based on its experience of a blockade during the war. I have read translations of articles which have appeared in the German press and magazines during the past four or five years, stressing the necessity to grow more grain as the basic food of Germany, so that that country should never again be starved into submission by a blockade. That was the beginning. Prance and Italy have fostered the spirit of national preservation, because of their fear of one another and Germany, and also because it is their only remedy for the world-wide depression. So "Back to the land" has become the slogan in those countries. It is paltry to say that this policy has been adopted in retaliation for the high tariff policy of this or any other country. If honorable members were to read the digest that was distributed at the World Economic Conference showing the tariffs adopted by different nations, they .would realize that Australia's contribution has been comparatively modest. The Minister answered the pleas of urgency that have been advanced by saying that the Government is waiting to see the extent of this year's wheat crop before taking any action to relieve growers. That excuse can be advanced only with respect to what the Government proposes to do regarding carry-over wheat; it has no relevance to the granting of assistance to growers should the price received by them for their crop be unreasonably low. Irrespective of whether the crop should be 175,000,000 bushels, or more or less, the outstanding question is. " Do the wheat-growers require assistance to assure them, of at least 3s. a bushel?" Then the Minister tried to prove that a considerable amount of relief has been given to wheat-growers through remissions iu taxation, and he also referred to the withdrawal of sales tax from the needs of primary producers.' Very few wheat-growers have been able to afford to buy any of the articles from which sales tax has been removed, and some of them are actually on the bread line. Therefore, those reductions have not afforded relief to them. The Minister is on even weaker ground when he refers to remissions of land tax, for, as I have again and again made it clear, two-thirds of the land tax that is collected is paid by city land-owners. If the hardship section of the act is sympathetically administered it is possible for almost every wheat-grower who is in difficulties to obtain relief from land tax. The only exception is the farmer who has income from other sources; but a man who is wholly dependent on the proceeds of his land can obtain relief under section 66. 3527 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - That is the result of action by this Government. 3527 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - The hardship section has been in operation since 1910, hut it was broadened last year at the instance of the present Government. Where are the struggling wheat-growers who pay land tax? The act provides for a £5,000 exemption, and if a primary producer owns a property valued at £8,000, including improvements, he should not have to pay land tax. It was quite unnecessary to grant additional relief to owners of city properties as has been done. The Minister referred to share-farmers, and said that they would participate in the benefit accruing to the landlord through the remission of the land tax. But in Australia the share-farmer's return is a percentage of the crop, and if the land tax were wiped out altogether he would not benefit by as much as one penny. I know something about the subject, because I once represented a district in which share-farming was extensively carried on, and I know that, sometimes, it is one of the worst possible forms of rack renting. I agree entirely with the proposal for a wheat pool. 3527 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3527 KZZ Macquarie UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON . - I hope that I shall never be accused of under-estimating the immense national value of the wheat-growing industry of Australia, and the tremendous difficulties with which those engaged in it have been faced during the last four or five years. But it is imperative that those who participate in a debate of this nature should take full cognizance of the fact that in recent years and because of the political power they wield, as a result of excellent organization, certain sections of primary industry have been successful in obtaining from governments assistance which is denied those less fortunately situated. I have in mind wheat-growers, sugar-farmers, dairy-farmers, cotton growers, grape-growers, and others. I shall not try to estimate the magnitude of the assistance which they have received in recent years, hut the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) assured honorable members that during the last two years alone wheat-growers have received something like £5,5,00,000 from the Commonwealth Government, in addition to substantial assistance from State governments. I make a plea for those primary producers who have not the advantage of a strong political pull, and who lack organization because of the paucity of their numbers or the fact that they are very scattered, but who are just as necessary to the well-being of the community as are wheat-growers. Particularly do I speak on behalf of market gardeners, poultry farmers, orchardists and apiarists, &c., whose position is just as desperate as that of the wheat-growers, whose efficiency is just as great, and all of whom are struggling in the toils of depressed prices. I therefore hope that when the Minister is formulating a scheme for the assistance of our wheat-farmers, he will also give consideration to the claims of the other sections of primary producers whom I have mentioned, and particularly bear in mind the urgent need for assistance being given to poultry-farmers and fruit-growers who are unable to pass on their higher costs of production. Every addition to the national expenditure makes more difficult the lot of these unfortunate people. The honorable member for Calare (Mr. Thorby) did not state definitely what would be a fair price to pay for the coming season's wheat, but I gathered from his remarks that he considered that if the growers arc to meet their obligations and carry on, they should receive from 3s. 6d. to 4s. a bushel. 3527 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - I did not mention a price, but said that 3s. would be below the cost of production. 3528 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON -The general opinion held by the representatives of wheat-growers in this House is that a price in the vicinity of 3s. 6d. or 4s. a bushel would he reasonable. Let us examine the position to ascertain the cost to the Commonwealth if this proposal were accepted. On the basis of present prices for wheat, if farmers received, say, 3s. 9d. a bushel for that portion of the crop which was consumed locally, they would get an additional payment of approximately 2s. a bushel, and the total cost would be about £5,000,000. I am not discussing the merits or demerits of the claims made on behalf of the wheat-growers; I merely put before the House what would be involved in guaranteeing to them what is considered a fair price. 3528 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr Nock - Bread would still be cheap. 3528 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - It might be. My purpose is not to raise objections to the proposal, but to show what is involved in it. The Government, to the accompaniment of hosannas from Country party members, is proposing to remit taxation to the amount of about £7,000,000. Now we have before us a scheme that, if accepted, will mean an additional expenditure for the special benefit of wheat-growers of £5,000,000, which will have to be provided by the people generally through some form of taxation". I also emphasize that the fixation of the price at the level suggested will mean absolute ruin to 50 per cent. of Australian poultry-farmers who, on present market values for their output, will be quite unable to pay the higher prices demanded for wheat. 3528 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - We are providing for them. 3528 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - If it is possible to do that, the objection to the proposal from the point of view of poultry farmers, at all events, will be removed; but there will still he the objection that its adoption will mean an additionof £5,000,000 to existing taxation, and aconsequent increase of the cost of living. The probable effect of any proposal to increase the price of wheat should be considered in the light of the additional burden which it will impose on other primary industries and also on consumers in the cities. We might further consider the desirability of retiring from the industry those wheat-farmers who are unable to produce at a profit except when wheat is in the vicinity of 5s. or 6s. a bushel. That problem should be faced honestly by the wheat industry itself. 3528 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3528 KX7 East Sydney 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD .- This discussion naturally hinges upon the acceptance by the Government of what is known as the international wheat agreement made in London towards the end of August, and the alleged benefits which are to accrue to Australian wheat-farmers. I use the term " alleged benefits ", because an examination of the scheme agreed to by those international market riggers - " crooks " might be a more appropriate term - and accepted by the representative of this Government, shows that it holds out little hope for Australian wheat farmers, particularly at a time when, because of their desperate plight due to the sagging of world prices, they might reasonably expect some assistance from the Government. The expected benefits to Australian wheat-growers under this agreement are really based upon the assumption that misfortune, in some form or other, will befall wheat-growers in other countries. The Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart), in reply to remarks made by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley), said that if the United States of America were able to dump 35,000,000 bushels of wheat in Eastern markets, as is reported in recent cabled reports from that country, the export quota allotted to America would be reduced proportionally under the agreement, which fixes the world import demand for wheat for this year at 562,000,000 bushels. But if the world demand for wheat this season rises above that figure the Minister must, I think, admit that the additional requirements will he met by the exportation, not of the Australian surplus, but of the carry-over grain held by the United States of America and Canada. This agreement has been " put over " Australia by the representatives of those wheatexporting countries which have been experiencing difficulty lately owing to their enormous carry-over, and I feel sure that the people of this country will soon realize, as they have never realized- before, the absolute necessity for the safeguarding of their interests by the appointment of delegates with an Australian outlook to participate in international assemblies such as the wheat conference. We were not adequately represented at the conference, which drew up this international wheat agreement or at the Ottawa Conference, because we did not have, at either gathering, delegates with a thoroughly Australian outlook. I repeat that the expected benefits to Australia from this international wheat agreement are based upon the assumption that misfortune is about to befall wheat producers in other countries. I find support for ' this view in recent reports of & drought in the Argentine, and statements that the estimated production in the western grain-growing provinces of Canada will be 173,000,000" bushels below the production of last year. It is also reported that a bad season has been experienced in the United States of America, and that the quantity of wheat produced this year is substantially less. Therefore, it would appear that, but for this agreement, under which we shall be obliged to restrict our wheat exports, our farmers would have had a reasonably good opportunity to dispose of their surplus production this season. Yet the Minister has the effrontery to argue that the agreement is a good one for Australia! He has also said that Australia was forced to accept it. Why was acceptance by Australia compulsory? The document containing the agreement, laid on the table of the House a few days ago by the Minister, shows that the Soviet Republic was represented at the conference, but was not a signatory to the agreement. Its delegates discussed the subject of world production, and agreed to " limit their exports for the crop year 1933-34 to a figure which will be arrived at upon the- completion of negotiations with the governments of the overseas wheat-exporting countries ". This year, according to late, reliable reports, the Russian wheat harvest is particularly good, and doubtless the Soviet. Republic is just as anxious as is any other wheatexporting country to do the best for its growers in the marketing of their product. As regards the working out of this agreement, Russia 13 an unknown quantity, but all the evidence suggests that the Russian exportable surplus will be much greater this season than it has been for some years; so we may expect Soviet wheat to come into competition with the Australian product in the world's market this year. 3529 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - Does the honorable member suggest that the Soviet Republic is not likely to honour its undertaking? 3529 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The Soviet Government has not accepted any definite obligation to limit its wheat exports during the currency of this agreement. In a recent issue of Broom-hall's Corn Trade News, there appears the following comment : - Latest news from Russia suggests the Soviet authorities may be willing to work with other exporters in this matter, but undoubtedly they will want a share of what trade there is. Many European countries have substantially increased their production of wheat in recent years, because, being debtor nations, they could not afford to pay for importations of wheat from other countries. I suggest that those honorable members who profess to be Christians cannot possibly endorse this agreement which, as I have shown, is based on the assumption, if not the hope, that disaster in some form or another is about to befall other wheat-growing countries, including Canada, the United States of America, and the Argentine, which, this year, are faced with the prospect of poorer harvests. It is hot right for u3 to depend upon other countries' misfortunes to rectify our own position. The world's wheat market this year will be affected by increased offerings from Germany, Prance, and Italy, which, instead of being importing countries, will have an exportable surplus. The agreement fixes the world import requirements for 1933-34 at 562,000,000 bushels, and for 1934-35 at 746,000,000 bushels. What assurance can the Minister give us that the world import requirements for 1934-35 will be more than the amount fixed for this year unless it is hoped that misfortune will befall wheat-growers in certain countries, thus preventing them from supplying their own requirements from their internal production? Under the agreement, Australian wheat exports for the coming season are fixed at 105,000,000 bushels, and for1934-35 at 150,000,000 bushels. This country may, up to the end of July next, export an additional 42,000,000 bushels, but that additional quantity will be deducted from the quota for the following year. I therefore contend that, in all the circumstances, the agreement is not likely to benefit Australian wheatgrowers. The Minister, replying to the leader of the party to which I belong, said that we represented wheat-eating constituencies, the implication being that we are not entitled to speak for wheat-producing constituencies. The Minister himself is in exactly the same position. Before he entered this. House as the representative for Parramatta, he was a bus proprietor, and, as such, was not more directly interested in the welfare of the wheat producers than is any other honorable member. I assure him that we are sincerely desirous ofdoing something to assist the wheat-growers, because we consider ourselves to be representatives of the Australian people regardless of geographical boundaries. We are anxious to promote the well-being of, not only the wheat-growers, but also every other section of the community. The honorable member for West Sydney has made a practicable proposal which, if given effect, would assist the wheat-grower to market his product at a reasonable price. The Minister (Mr. Stewart) has asked how the scheme could he financed, seeing that the Government is budgeting for a deficit. We suggest that the resources and facilities of the Commonwealth Bank should be applied to this purpose. 3530 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. Motion (by Mr. Gander) proposed - That the question be now put. Question put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. H. Mackay.) 14 41 Majority ..... . 27 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Debate interrupted under Standing Order No. 257b. Sitting suspended from 12.52 to 2.15 p.m. 3530 bill Second Reading Debate resumed from the 12th October (vide page 3509), on motion by Mr. Lyons - That the bill be now read a second time. Upon which Mr. Forde had moved by way of amendment - That all the words after " That " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " the bill be withdrawn and redrafted to provide for the complete restoration of the percentage reductions in Publ ic Service salaries, wages, pensions and social services." Mr. E. J. HARRISON (Wentworth) [2.151. - It would merely be repeating a truism if I were to remind honorable members that right finance is good government, and good government . is right finance. However, I must congratulate the Government on having done a good job during a most difficult period in the history of the country. Honorable members opposite, from the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) to the youngest member of the party, have, with sublime irresponsibility, criticized the Government'sbudget. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition moved an amendment, and tried to state a case in support of it. With his usual temerity and effrontery, he chided the Government for budgeting for a deficit. Furthermore, the party in the corner, led by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley), has also been critical of the Government's management of the finances, and the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), who claims to possess an intimate knowledge of the intricacies of finance, even to the " nth " degree, took the Government to task for daring to place before Parliament the present relief bill, even though, to most honorable members, the measure represents an attempt to rehabilitate trade and industry, and to restore to pensioners and taxpayers a portion of what is due to them. I have taken the trouble to investigate the honorable member's claims to criticize the measure, and the only conclusion I can come to is that they rest upon his ability to collect pennies from the organizations of old-age pensioners. With his colossal knowledge ofbusiness principles, he should surely he aware that the Government, in budgeting for a deficit on a rising market, is merely taking one of the common business risks that are taken from time to time by every commercial establishment throughout the country. Honorable members must know that a rising market means increasing revenue, and, although the Government is budgeting for a deficit, it is almost certain that, so great will be the stimulus given to industry by the contemplated remissions of taxation, that revenue may even exceed that of last year, and there will be another surplus. Of course, it would be unwise for the Government to take undue risks; it must play safe, and, in my opinion, it is doing so in the present budget. The criticism of honorable members opposite reminds me of the delightful satire of Byron, when he says - A man must serve his time to every trade Save censure - critics all are ready made. I remind honorable members that old-age pensions represent a social service which is peculiarly the gift of the party to which I belong. The pension was first introduced by the Deakin Government, when the amount was fixed at 10s. a week. Since then the rate has been increased five times, and reduced once. Four of the increases were made by Liberal or Nationalist governments ; and the one decrease was made by the last Labour Government, even though that party claims to possess a monopoly of sympathy with the pensioners. I have no wish to point the finger of scorn at the Labour Government for having made that reduction, because I realize that, at the time it was done, no other course was open. However, if the cut had not been made, and the remarkable increase in the number of pensioners had been maintained, old-age pensions would have cost the country not less than £29,160,000 for ten years. The present Government, therefore, felt, not only that it should continue the cut, but that it should tighten up the conditions governing the granting of pensions. The fact was that the old-age pension was becoming very popular. A pension of 20s. a week represented, in effect,the purchaseby the Government of an annuity costing £1,300, to be invested at 4 per cent., or an expenditure of £2,600 on annuities for a man and his wife. Even when the pension was reduced to 17s. 6d. a week, the value of the annuity was £1,150, which the Government still regarded as more than it should be called upon to provide. I have investigated various old-age and invalid pension systems in operation in various parts of the world, and, notwithstanding the criticism of honorable members opposite, I have come to the conclusion that the Australian system is the most generous and elastic of all. In support of that I draw attention to the following comparison between the pension schemes of Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand, Canada, and South Africa : - The only dominion "whose pension rate exceeds ours is Canada, but the age qualification there exceeds ours by five years. In addition, half of the provinces of Canada are not paying pensions. Australia is the only country that has a non-contributory invalid pension scheme. Comparing our pension payments "with the present revenue from income tax, I find that in 1931-32 the revenue from federal income tax was 13.8 million pounds, and the pension payments amounted to 11.8 million pounds. In 1.932-33 the revenue from federal income tax was £10,000,000 and the pension payments were estimated at 11.1 million pounds. The number of taxpayers compares rather unfavorably with the number of invalid and old-age pensioners, because, in 1932, there were 290,000 taxpayers and 255,609 pensioners. Those figures show conclusively that the pension payments have assumed such proportions as to absorb the whole of the revenue from income taxation. One wonders how much longer this country can continue to pay this huge amount for social services without imposing conditions to prevent those who can well afford to live without the pension from taking advantage of the wide provisions of the law. In 1932-33 the receipts of income taxation amounted to 30s. 4$d. a head, yet we are paying at the rate of 31s. lid. a head to invalid and old-age pensioners. Those figures reveal an amazing position, and most honorable members will agree that some definite alteration of the incidence of the payments for social services is necessary if Australia 13 to progress satisfactorily. If this millstone is to be placed round (.he neck of Australia for all time, the natural expansion of this young country must be retarded. It is to the everlasting credit of Australia that it has been able to maintain so generous a scheme of pensions throughout the economic crisis: In the first year of operation invalid and old-age pensions amounted to £1,433,585, and in 1931 they had increase to £11,710,000. Had the pension of 20s. been continued, with the natural increase of pensioners, the payments would have reached the extraordinary figure of £29,000,000. The increase in The per capita charge also has been very marked. In 1910-11 it was Ss. 4d.; in> 1930-31, 36s. 2d.; in 1931-32, 34s. Id.;, and at present it is 31s. lid. The ratio of pension payments to national income may be of interest tohonorable members. In 1912 the percentage was 0.7 ; in 1922, 1.1, and in 1933, 2.6. The percentage of people who became pensioners from time to time was- - in 1912, 1.73 of the population; in 1922, 1.91, and in 1932, 2.81. These steadily increasing percentages give some indication of what we will be called upon to meet in the near future if we fail to give the matter our immediate attention. The percentage of invalid pensioners was - in 1912, 2.4; in 1922, 7.1, and in 1932, .11.1. During this and other discussions in this House some honorable members have made a definite attack upon the administration of the pensions department in New South Wales. In all my extensive dealings with Mr. Theggie, the Deputy Commissioner of that department, I have received the utmost courtesy and consideration in respect of any claim that I have brought under his notice. Like the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley), I pay the highest tribute to that gentleman. 3532 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) was the only member to attack the Deputy Commissioner. 3532 KNX Wentworth UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - There were many attacks upon him. Unfortunately under the present system, invalid and old age pensioners feel that they are regarded as paupers in receipt of government charity. Nothing should be done that will tend to pauperize the old pioneers, and, until such time as a compulsory contributory insurance scheme is introduced, I fear that they will not consider that the payment is made without prejudice. In this matter the Government should legislate for the future, although it may involve an extraordinary charge on the revenues. I. commend the Government for its proposal to remove old-age pension adjustments from the arbitrary control of Parliament. It is proposed to provide for the adjustment of the pension between 17s. 6d. and £1 a week in accordance with the fluctuations in the cost of living, and this will relieve the Government of the responsibility of fixing the. amounts actually to be received by individual pensioners. I agree with the leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) that the land tax is an iniquitous impost, and, in the interests of both city and country people, should be abolished. Introduced originally for the purpose of breaking up large estates, this tax appears to have reached a point at which it is really dangerous to the Commonwealth. New Zealand imposed a graduated land tax in 1893 for the same reason as that which actuated the Commonwealth Parliament in introducing this tax. But about the year 1923 a committee expressed the opinion that the breaking-up effect of the tax had been such that its continuance would he injurious to the dominion, and it recommended a reversion to taxation at a flat rate. After considering the fact that this tax was driving men from the land ( into the big cities, with the resultant restriction, of natural exports, New Zealand, in 1931, relegated it to the limbo of forgotten, things. The Commonwealth Government should follow the example of. that dominion with regard to the federal land tax. The Royal Commission on Taxation, appointed by the Commonwealth Government some years ago, inserted the following comment in its fourth report: - The Commonwealth may determine to continue the imposition of land tax for revenue purposes only, on the ground that no further legislative impetus to the subdivision of large estates by the Commonwealth is necessary. In this event, it is our opinion that land tax should be levied on the basis of a flat rate. The commission declared that it was definitely opposed to a graduated laud tax. The New Zealand experience showed Chat it was not necessary to consider even a flat rate, because the damage done by the tax warranted its immediate abolition.. One cannot help being impressed by the fact that, when the tax first became operative, 68 per cent, of the revenue collected was derived from the country, and only 32 per cent, from the city. At the present time, however, the figures are reversed, the bulk of the tax being paid by big city property-owners. The valuations of city land have increased to such an. extent that this tax now yields much more than was originally collected. Although honorable members of the Opposition do not hesitate to attack large city land-owners, I say emphatically that relief should be given to these taxpayers. In some instances the tax is equivalent- to 10s. a foot every week. Honorable members opposite always advocate the development of secondary industries, and they even encourage the establishment of exotic industries by imposing prohibitive tariff duties, and to be consistent, they should not favour a heavy land tax on properties that are .used for secondary production. A big city business cannot expand as it normally would, if it is hampered by an exorbitant land tax. Taxation in various directions has mounted higher and higher, until now the aggregate effect is practically to paralyse trade and industry. Excessive taxation prevents the expansion of industry, and injures the very people whom honorable members opposite desire to assist. The policy of taxing city properties heavily is having a particularly serious effect on the building trades. A reduction of taxes would enable factories to expand, and would provide further employment for the workers. Heavy taxation of city properties leads to excessive rentals for offices, which are mainly rented by agents and business men in a small way, who employ limited staffs. Many of these business men find difficulty in making a living; and if office rentals are too high, they may have to vacate the premises they occupy, and dispense with the services of some of their employees. In discussing the land tax I shall not touch on the wheat industry, for mention of it seems to be a signal for honorable members opposite to protest that the majority of the farmers of Australia do not pay the federal land tax. I shall pass on to the wool industry, which provides 50 per cent, of the exports of this country. Our wool has to compete with the wool of other countries which have the benefits of low labour costs, freights, and no strangling land tax. I regret that the Government has not seen fit to abolish the land tax altogether, with the object of assisting this great export industry. The tax has served its purpose in that it has broken up a number of large estates. It was expected that the subdivision of those large estates would lead, to .closer settlement and place more people on the land ; but it has had the opposite effect, for it has driven people off the land to swell the already disproportionate percentage of the population living in the cities. Of the total population of Victoria and New South Wales, about 57 per cent, is congregated in the cities of Melbourne and Sydney. London contains only 11 per cent, of th'e people of England, while in other countries the capital cities generally do not contain more than 7 per cent, of the total population. 3534 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - What would be the use of placing more men on the land when those already there cannot sell what they produce? 3534 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - I draw attention to the absurdity of having a multiplicity of valuations of land for taxation purposes. Each State Government has it own valuers, and, in some States the local governing bodies also have valuers. In addition, there are .the valuers for the Commonwealth. A saving could be effected by having one valuation for all these authorities. As an example of the variations in values under the present scheme, the valuations of properties in the city of Sydney by the City Valuer in 1930 could not be justified, and it was decided to revert to the valuations made in 1927. The City Valuer himself could not justify his valuations, yet some of them were increased by the Federal Government's valuers by 40 per cent. Some papers which I have before me reveal that valuations of Sydney properties' made by the city valuer in 1930 were increased by the valuers for the Commonwealth by £23,965, or 46.4 per cent., notwithstanding that the valuations of the former could not be justified. I suggest that the Government should give this matter its attention. I come now to the federal income tax. It is estimated that, of the 3,600,000 electors in Australia, only 8 per cent, pay direct taxation. I hope, therefore^ that at an early date the Government will consider the advisability of widening the field of taxation to include some of the 92 per cent, of the electors who at present do not contribute directly1 to the revenue of the country. 3534 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - Rubbish! 3534 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - Thesepeople, who at present have no financial responsibility for the expense of government, would take a greater interest in the political and administrativesystem if it were costing them something".. Honorable members opposite complain that the Government proposes to give relief from taxation to the 8 per cent, of the electors who now carry the whole of the burden of developing Australia. 3534 K0A 0 0 GABB, Joel Mr Gabb - They do not carry theburden; the lower strata of society carries it. 3534 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - HARRISON.- -I hope that the Government will seriously considermy suggestion to widen the field of taxation, for I feel confident that if the- 92 per cent, of the people to whom I havereferred had a real financial interest in the country, the electors would be betterrepresented in this Parliament, and therewould be- a greater appreciation of thedifficulties confronting the Government. In order to show how the burden of taxation on the unfortunate 8 per centhas been increased, I mention that,, whereas in pre-war days £2,800,009 was paid in income tax, the annual revenuefrom that source is now about £26,000,000.. The 8 per cent, of our people who pay taxes are carrying more than their fairshare of the burden, and I think it advisable that the remaining 92 per cent, of the people should take some of theresponsibility of contributing at least to their maintenance in their declining' years. The Government's proposal in regard to the tax on companies will not, as the honorable member for East Sydney (MrWard) suggested, merely increase the profits of the companies ; it will stimulatetrade and industry and benefit the community generally. As many of the companies owning city properties are unable to pay dividends, the proposed remission of taxation should- encourage theinvestment of capital and a general expansion of trade. I commend the Government for its proposals with respect to soldiers' pensions. As an anti-Labour government was responsible for fixing the conditions under which Australian soldiers were sent overseas, it is only right that the reductions of pensions made during the Scullin Government's regime should be restored by this Government'. In 1931, the Scullin Government amended the law without a full knowledge of the conditions. I have made representations on behalf of an exsoldier who returned from the front in the early days of the war with other tubercular patients because he was suffering from fibrosis. On his arrival in Australia several sputum tests were made, and although the repatriation authorities said that his lungs were not affected, private medical men definitely stated that they were. About twelve months ago he was compelled to undergo a major operation for fibrosis, which had then definitely developed in his system. The repatriation authorities then decided to assume responsibility, and gave him a full pension, but when he made application for arrears he was told that in consequence of the legislation passed by the Scullin Government he was not entitled to receive any back pay. Subsequently he was paid a sum representing six months' arrears. That seems grossly unfair in view of the fact that after his return from abroad on a hospital ship he made immediate application to the repatriation authorities. 3535 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - That is an anomaly that should be removed. 3535 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - Yes. Further consideration should be given in cases where a wrong diagnosis has been made. I am glad that the Government proposes to restore the full rate, of pension to superannuated public servants. This contributory superannuation scheme has doubtless prevented a large number of persons from applying for an old-age pension. 3535 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. 3535 L08 Dalley 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR .- We have had the privilege of discussing what has been termed the restoration budget, and are now considering a bill giving effect to the Government's budget proposals. The restorations, judging upon their relative merits, are ill-balanced. Huge sums are to be given to those who have not been subjected to financial emergency legislation, while those who have suffered the heaviest blow are not to receive any consideration. The budget proposals for the relief of taxation have been applauded by some, and particularly by those to whom the most substantial remissions are being made. This bill will mean little to the great mass of Australian people, and to the unemployed nothing at all. When the true significance of the budget and this bill have been fully disclosed by the test of time, the disillusionment of the people will bring about a day of reckoning for the Government and its supporters. The budget and the bill now under consideration throw's a lurid light on the great "sell out" known as the Premiers plan. Both measures have actually been dictated by the financial corporations which were the authors of that plan. Sir Otto Niemeyer, on behalf of the banking institutions, dictated the Premiers plan, and in Melbourne on the 15th August of this year a meeting of bankers and Cabinet Ministers decided what the budget should contain. The authors of that plan definitely stated that if budgets were not balanced Australia would crumple and crash. In order to balance budgets, the representatives of those financial institutions which dictate governmental policy declared that there must be a reduction of 22½ per cent. in all adjustable governmental expenditure. Immediately an attack was made on wage standards, pensions andsocial services. I quote the dictum of Sir Otto Niemeyer to show how faithfully the bankers' plan has been carried out - I assume that everybody is in agreement that costs must come down. There may he room for increased efficiency, hut there seems to me little escape from concluding that Australian standards have been pushed too high relatively to Australian productivity and to general world conditions and tendencies. If Australia does not face that issue she will not be able to keep even those standards which she might hope to carry by taking timely action, and she will see an inevitable increase in unemployment. 3535 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Which came. 3535 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - We have the definite statement of that gentleman that Australian standards had been "pushed too high relative to Australian productivity", and that they must be smashed. Those who a couple of years ago said that the only hope of Australia was in balanced budgets, are now ardent advocates of the new policy of the Premiers Conference, viz., that as budgets cannot be balanced no effort need be made to balance them. Consequently the present Government is deliberately and definitely budgeting for deficits in the next two year's, a policy which they told us, not long ago, would send Australia to the wall. Budgets are to remain unbalanced, but the workers' living standards have gone. We have before us class legislation of the most flagrant kind. The hopes of the Premiers plan have been exploded, and it has now been definitely divulged, through the actions of Commonwealth and State Governments alike, that the real purpose of the Premiers plan was to smash the living standards of the Australian people, in accordance with Sir Otto Niemeyer's dictum. Now that those standards have been smashed, the Premiers plan has been abandoned. The banks which in 1931 said that budgets must be balanced before money could be made available to governments, are now prepared to advance money to governments which budget for deficits, because they realize that fresh investments in private enterprise are not profitable, and that in financing governments they get a gilt-edged investment for their surplus funds. So long as the living standards of the Australian people remain in their present shattered condition, it is idle to talk of a return of prosperity to this country. The purpose of this bill is alleged to be the partial restoration of cuts that were made in various directions under the Premiers plan, but the measure is not founded on equity and justice. Instead of considering how the money available can be used to the best advantage in the interests of the people, the Government has adopted a policy which will merely provide the banking and other financial and business institutions with larger profits and bank balances than they have lately enjoyed. It cannot possibly contribute materially to the solution of the unemployment problem. The Leader of the Opposition has appealed to the sense of justice of certain honorable members opposite and has asked them to redeem the promise made when the financial emergency legislation was passed that the wages and pensions cuts would be restored as soon as possible. Evidently he hopes that those honorable gentlemen will be conscientious. 3536 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - They have no conscience. 3536 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - I agree with the honorable member for Reid. It would require a super-optimist to believe that people who at first barter, and then abandon, their political principles to meet the exigencies of the moment will show any conscientiousness. The Government proposes by this legislation to benefit insurance companies to the amount of £710,000, although these institutions were not called upon to make any sacrifices under the financial emergency legislation. The Prime Minister told us that he hoped that the companies which will reap advantage from these provisions will pass it on to their debtors, but past experience does not strengthen the hope. Reference to the Commonwealth Y ear-Book shows that such institutions are not addicted to such altruism. Official statistics of ordinary life insurance companies, excluding the Mutual Life and Citizens Company, the National Mutual Life Company, The Western Australian Company, the Liverpool, London and Globe Company, and the Mutual Life Company of the United States of America, disclose that the income of these companies from interest dividends and bonds was £6,808.125 in 1930, and £6,469,996 in 1929, while they returned in dividends and cash bonuses to shareholders. £681,857 in 3929, and £851,994 in 1930. Their income, it will be seen, was £339,121 more from interest, dividends, and bonds in 1930 than in 1929, and dividends and cash bonuses to the shareholders nearly £170,000 more. There is no indication that these companies have up to date lightened the burden of their debtors as the Prime Minister has told us he hopes they will do, and there is no good reason to believe that they will do so in the future. 3536 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - They have pledged themselves to do it. 3536 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - I am not prepared to accept their verbal assurances in this connexion. If they do anything of that kind, they will certainly not run true to form. The action of the Government in this connexion is not likely to assist in the provision of additional employment for the people. These companies were accustomed in the past to lend money to private enterprise, but more recent statistics show that they have invested the bulk of the money under their control in government bonds, which they evidently consider to be a safer investment." It certainly does not appear that they are likely to resume the practice of lending money to industrial enterprises, aa the Government hopes they will do. Another provision in the bill is designed to benefit overseas shipping companies to the amount of £25,000. Is that provision likely to create employment locally or do anything to reduce freight charges? I submit that, in view of the immense export tonnage, its effects, in these directions, will be negligible. Such a provision is not at all likely to increase the number of ships trading to Australia from overseas. In any case, we have at times more shipping available than we need to transport our products. It is also proposed to remit sales taxation to the amount of £2,575,000. "While I am prepared to admit that there are certain objectionable features about our sales tax legislation, I do not think that, in view of the long list of exemptions, the reduction of this taxation on the remainder by 1 per cent, is likely to increase the purchasing capacity of the people. No one imagines that it is really the sales tax, whether it be at the rate of 6 per cent, or 5 per cent., that hinders people from spending money. The fact is " that thousands of people have no money to spend. The question is whether it would be better for revenue purposes for the Government to retain the sales tax at its present rates, and divert that £2,570,000 into channels which would create employment, and in turn increase the purchasing power, which, after all, is what we need. The subject of land tax has been debated at length and some honorable members have expressed the opinion that the relief proposed under this head will have a far-reaching benefit. Last year, the Government granted remissions of land tax to the amount of £700,000, to which it now proposes to add a further £400,000. Yet those who pay land tax have contributed in. no way to emergency taxation, nor have past remissions created employment. The honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) said that 5 per cent. of our wool producers account for 55 per cent, of Australia's wool clip, the other 95 per cent, operating only in a small way. Obviously, then, with the £5,000 exemption which operates, the majority of wool-growers will receive no benefit from a remission of land tax. The honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. E. J. Harrison) claims that land tax has been responsible for driving many persons from the land to the cities, and that one of the first results of these remissions will be to encourage them to go back to the land. We know that at present it. is impossible to market our primary products, and the position would be aggravated by an increase of the number of those engaged iu primary production; therefore, it is idle to indulge in such talk. Much of the time of this Parliament is taken up in discussing ways and means of assisting the marketing of our primary products, but, so far, the problem has been beyond us. Under the provisions of this bill, the incidence of company income tax will be reduced from ls. 4.8d. to ls. in the £1, a fall of 30 per cent., notwithstanding the fact that the emergency legislation increased it only from ls. 4d. to ls. 4.8d. or by about 6 per cent. The gift to this section of the community will amount to £85,000. Does the Government expect that this remission will create more employment, or is it merely to go towards increasing the dividends and bank balances of the rich? An amount of £550,000 is to be restored to civil servants. In my opinion, that act is long overdue. Those who originated the financial emergency legislation to implement the Premiers plan are under an obligation to carry out the promises then made that civil servants would be the first to receive restitution when the finances of Australia became move buoyant. Unfortunately, the restoration that is now being made to this section is but trifling. Honorable members opposite have made much of the fact that £635,000 is to be restored to invalid and old-age pensioners. Under the Financial Emergency Act of 1931, invalid and old-age pensioners were deprived of £1,725,000, and it has been claimed that honorable members on this side were responsible for that legislation. Where are they now? There are very few left on this side of the chamber who supported the introduction of the financial emergency measures. The fact is that honorable members who support the present Government made possible the passage of that legislation, and with them lies the responsibility for the reduction of pensions. In 1932, a further £700,000 was taken away from invalid and old-age pensioners, the Prime Minister claiming that that was necessary to balance the budget. Just prior to that action being taken, a deputation of landowners asked the Prime Minister to reduce the land tax and the right honorable gentleman promised that within a short time they would receive a substantial remission. Within two months after the £700,000 had been taken from the pensioners, a gift of £500,000 was made to land-owners in the form of land tax remissions, £250,000 was presented to those who pay income tax, a bounty of £2,000,000 was paid to wheat-growers, and £250,000 was given to other primary producers! All this serves to indicate that the pension reductions were not justified. As a result of the property sections of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act, 12,000 unfortunates have been forced off the pensioners' roll. This means that the pensioners, as a class, have been deprived of a further £480,000. Since 1931 they have sacrificed £2,905,000, and the Government this year is restoring to them £635,000 ! 3538 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - Does the honorable member object to that? 3538 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - On the contrary, I should like to see the restoration made on a much more liberal scale, and, when the hill is in committee, will give the honorable member an opportunity to vote for an amendment having that object in view. Even with this year's increase, our pensioners will have sacrificed, under emergency legislation, no less a sum than £2,270,000. The scale of cost of living increases provided is intended merely to hoodwink pensioners, because it is based on index figures relating to food and groceries only, and is to be adjusted annually, each increase of 100 points over the base figure of 1,400 entitling pensioners to an additional 6d. a week. In March last the index figure was 1,317 ; in June it had increased to 1,337. At this rate of increase it will be a long time before pensioners get the first additional 6d. a week provided for under this bill. As a matter of fact, the index figure has fallen consistently since the peak year of 1929, when it stood at 1,635. In the June quarter of this year it was, as I have stated, 1,337. There will have to be an increase of not less than 37 per cent. in the cost-of-living figures before any of the pensioners get £1 a week. The rate of pension to be paid has been discussed at length on numerous occasions. One would think, from what has been said on this subject from time to time, that there is some magic in the figure of £1 a week. The Prime Minister, when announcing the reductions in October last, defended the action of the Government by arguing that, on the cost of living figures, it would be justified in reducing the pension to11s.11d. a week, and the Assistant Minister (Mr. Casey), dealing in fractions and decimals, endeavoured to persuade us that our invalid and old-age pensioners were really living in luxury. He fully endorsed all that the Prime Minister had said, and suggested that the pensioners were getting considerably more than they were entitled to. The rate of payment to invalid and old-age pensioners has never been based on the cost-of-living figures, but on the ability of the Government to meet the obligation. Although many arguments have been advanced to show that it should be based on the cost of living index, it has never been clearly demonstrated that there is any relation between payment of pensions and variations in the cost-of-living figures. It has been the practice of every government since the introduction of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act to raise or lower the rate according to its ability to meet the bill. To be effective, the scale provided in this bill should include house rent, clothing and other necessaries, and not deal only with food and groceries. In it3 present form, it will not accurately reflect alterations in the cost of living. The other items I have mentioned are used by the Arbitration Court in determining awards which are based on the cost of living to workers in industry. 3539 KHO 0 0 HOLMAN, William Mr Holman - Does not the honorable member realize that there must be some difference in the scale for index figures relating to pensioners with an income of £1 a week, and the scale for workers in industry who may be receiving £4 a week? In the case of the latter certain items might be relatively more important. 3539 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - I do not agree with the honorable member. If the reduction or increase of pensions is to depend on variations in cost-of-living figures, these should be based on the recognized necessaries of life, and should include rent and clothing, as well as food and groceries. I suggest also, that the existing legislation should be further liberalized so that superannuation payments by State or Federal Governments should not be taken into account when assessing the amount of pension to be paid to applicants. If a person provides a home for himself in his old age, and that property is not taken into account when assessing the amount of his pension, another person who contributes to a superannuation fund, so as to ensure some income for himself in his old age, should be treated similarly. Another anomaly which the Government should take into consideration is the amount paid for board by children of pensioners. That should not be treated as income. When the provisions relating to the property qualification were inserted in the act, the argument advanced by those who supported them was that if certain young people in the community did not assist their parents, they should not benefit from any property which the latter might leave at death. I do not agree with that argument. The Government set itself out to punish children who do not assist their parents; but immediately it found that some children pay a little extra for the board of their parents, it punished the parents by reducing their pensions. The Government cannot have it both ways; if the property provision is to bc used to penalize children in the one case, it should not operate against parents in the other. I claim further that non-revenue-producing property should not be regarded as income. The party of .which I am a member will provide members with an opportunity in committee to say whether the property provisions should be struck out of the act. We also consider that the provisions which harass the relatives of pensioners should be repealed. Reviewing the concessions proposed under this legislation, I contend that we should first endeavour to assess the value of tax reductions, and the other means proposed for the disposal of the surplus in their relation to the unemployment position. Many honorable members argue that the effect of the tax remissions will be to lower costs and stimulate employment. That argument was advanced in favour of the wage reductions that have been made during the last couple of years. Wages are now at a lower level than they have been for a considerable period. What has been the result of these reductions? The purchasing power of the people has been lowered so greatly that it is much more difficult to dispose of what is produced, and the ranks of the unemployed have been swelled. The question is whether these tax remissions will have a different effect. It is claimed that they will cheapen money. There is an abundance of cheap money available at the present time, but there are no avenues for profitable investment. The following statement was made recently by the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) : - One of the most startling phenomena of the present flay is that there is an abundance of money in every country in conjunction with distress and unemployment. The hanks are at their wits' end to know what to do with their deposits. Sir Josiah Stamp has said that people arc leaving their money in banks as they are leaving their cloaks in cloakrooms; they are. afraid to invest it. It has been claimed by honorable members opposite that normally 82 per cent, of the workers are dependent on private enterprise for employment. What is private enterprise doing to-day to absorb the unemployed? Those same honorable members admit that private enterprisewill not invest its money in undertakings that are not likely to return a profit. Profits are possible only if the people are in a position to purchase what is produced. Although there is an abundance of cheap money, there are no avenues for investment, because the people have not the means to purchase the goods that are produced. Instead of making huge remissions of taxes to interests that I believe will use the money, not as the Government' intends, but for the purpose of swelling their profits and bank balances, it would be more profitable to Australia if the Government were to launch out on a works programme that would absorb the unemployed. That would assist private employment, andrestore the purchasing power of those who to-day are deprived of the right to work. In this direction, both the budget and the bill fail. The money to be disbursed will eventually reach a dead end and become frozen ; whereas, if it were utilized to provide employment, beneficial results would accrue. Because I hold these beliefs, I intend to support the amendment of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin). Debate on (motion by Mr. Casey) adjourned. 3540 Adjournment Motion (by Mr. Lyons) agreed to - That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Wednesday next at 3 p.m. 3540 Adjournment Offensive Personalties in Debate. Motion (by Mr. Lyons) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 3540 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - I desire to bring before honorable members a matter of procedure affecting the reporting of the parliamentary debates. A disorderly or personally offensive statement to which exception is taken is required to be withdrawn,but the weakness of the present practice is that the statement is nevertheless recorded in Hansard. Honorable members will agree, I think, that this practice is undesirable, and that when offensive remarks are made, and withdrawn by direction of the Chair, they should be omitted from the official permanent record of debates. Therefore, with the concurrence of honorable members, I propose to instruct Hansard reporters to that effect. Question resolved in the affirmative. 3540 15:45:00 House adjourned at 3.45 p.m. 3540 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 3540 3540 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON son asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice - Is it a fact that in 1917, after Captain T. P. Conway had performed meritoriousservice in responsible positions, an adverse and injurious entry was made on his records? Why, if such entry was justifiable, was it expunged after operating for fourteen years? 3540 JWT UAP 1 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - Inquiries will he made, and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible. 3540 3540 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr Watkins asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - How many bushels of Australian maize were used, during the last year for which figures are available, in the production of (a) cornflour, (b) glucose, and (c) other maize products? What is the rate of customs duty imposed on maize imported from South Africa? 3540 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Information is being obtained. Three shillings and sixpence per cental, plus 10 per cent. primage duty. 3540 3540 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN asked the Minister for the Interior, upon notice - Has he any report to make available as to what success has attended the release of the parasitic wasp Spalangia spp. (Bz.C.) at Brook's Creek, Northern Territory, and elsewhere, in combating the buffalo-fly pest? In what localities and on what dates has the wasp been liberated, and what has been the result in each case? 3540 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr Perkins - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Sufficient time has not yet elapsed to determine whether or not success has attended the liberations of the various races of Spalangia S. Orientalis. The parasitic wasp was liberated in the following localities on the dates shown: - Burnside Station, April, 1932, to May, 1933 (9,823 wasps); Marrakai, June, 1933 (900 wasps); Derby, Western Australia (including Broome), March to May, 1933 (2,650 wasps); Northwest Queensland (including Mornington Island), October, 1932 (15,123 wasps). In connexion with results, see answer to Question 1. 3541 3541 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice - What has been the total amount of customs duty collected on the importation of bananas into (a) Western Australia, and (b) all other States, for the years ended 30th June, 1932, and 1933? 3541 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White . - The gross amount of customs duty, exclusive of primage duty, collected on the importation of bananas was - Details of primage are not recorded separately under statistical headings. 3541 3541 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What is the total amount claimed under section 52e of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act from the estates of deceased persons who were in receipt of pensions under that act? What is the total amount paid to the department in respect to these claims? 3541 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons . - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - £34,299. £9,502.