1933-10-18 13 1 4 REPS 3541 0 House of Representatives. 1933-10-18 Mr. Speaker (Hon.G. H. Mackay) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 3541 Miscellaneous 3541 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister and Treasurer 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - by leave - I desire to inform the House that Senator the Honorable Sir Harry Sutherland Wightman Lawson, K.C.M.G., has been included in the Cabinet, and was, on the 17th October, 1933, appointed by His Excellency the Governor-General to be a member of the Federal Executive Council. 3541 Questions 3541 3541 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - I have received from the secretary of the Victoria-Riverina branch of the Australian Workers Union a letter stating, inter alia, that, owing to the complete exhaustion of the funds available for work at the Mitta Mitta Junction or Hume Reservoir, the services of all the men engaged on that work will be dispensed with in the course of a few days, and that the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission in Victoria has made representations to the Federal Government for the advance of a sufficient sum to enable it to complete this work. Will the Minister for the Interior consider that request, in order that the dismissal of a number of men may be avoided? 3541 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - This matter has already had the consideration of the Government, and has been discussed in this House on two or three occasions during the last few months. The whole position was gone into two or three years ago, when it was decided to bring the work at the Hume Reservoir to a completion when a height sufficient to impound 1,250,000 acre feet had been reached. The original scheme provided for the impounding of 2,000,000 acre feet. The work is practically completed to the lower height. At a meeting held recently in Albury, an endeavour was made to induce the four contracting parties, the States of Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia, together with the Commonwealth, to come to an agreement in the regard to this and other works. Unfortunately, however, unanimity cannot be arrived at. Yesterday, while in Melbourne, I had an interview with the Victorian Minister for Works and Water Supply, as the result of which he and Ministers from the other Stares concerned will shortly visit Canberra, when the matter will again be gone into. 3541 Miscellaneous Commonwealth Assistance - International Agreement: Control of Export from Australia. 3542 KV7 Parramatta UAP Minister for Commerce 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART .-by leave -The Government has given the fullest consideration to the prospective position of wheat-growers after the sale of their 1933-34 harvest, and has carefully studied the representations that have been made regarding the adverse effects which a continuance of present low prices would have upon the solvency and stability of the industry. The present very low price is, to some extent, due to reaction from the market activity which was evident while restrictions were under consideration, and the unusually violent speculation in North America recently. The Government believes that it is yet too early to determine what the average price next season is likely to be, and, therefore, what will be the measure of the need of the industry for financial assistance. It is not unreasonable to anticipate that, for the major part of the next crop, prices will be considerably above the present level. In October, 1931, the export price of Australian wheat was 2s. 41/4d. a bushel, approximately the price prevailing to-day. Thereafter the price movement was as follows: - November, 2s. 101/4d. a bushel; December, 3s. 31/4d. a bushel. From the last date to the end of the season the price did not fall below 3s. 2d. a bushel. In this connexion I may mention that every increase of lcl. a bushel in the price of wheat would add almost £750,000 to the incomes of Australian farmers from the sale of the forthcoming harvest. The Government, therefore, considers that a postponement of its final decision in the matter is justified. The position will be closely watched, and after a few weeks the Government will be in a position to determine what assistance is necessary. The industry may rest assured that appropriate action will be taken in the light of the position as it then appears. Last week I intimated to honorable members that the Government was carefully considering the measures necessary to ensure that Australia would comply with its undertaking under the international wheat agreement, and at the same time assure to farmers a ready sale for all wheat produced by them, whether or not its export had to be postponed. Since thenI have received the latest estimates available of the volume of the forthcoming Australian harvest, and have had consultations with State Ministers, and representatives of wheatgrowers, voluntary pools, flour millers and exporters, and grain exporters. Following upon receipt of the latest crop estimates, and the consultations referred to, the Government has considered its policy in regard to the matter, and I am now in a position to indicate the steps which it is proposedto take. The latest estimate of the next harvest is about 185,000,000 bushels, which would be disposed of as follows : - Requirements for home consumption, seed and poultry - 50,000,000 bushels. Available for export- 135,000,000 bushels. Australia's export quota for grain and flour for the year ending the 31st July, 1934, is 105,000,000 bushels. The anticipated exportablesurplus is, therefore, 30,000,000 bushels in excess of the quota. It is desirable that, the export of flour be not restricted for thu following obvious reasons : - Flour trade contracts are difficult to maintain, and, once lost, would be difficult to regain. The production of flour provides labour. The production of flour in undiminished quantity is desirable to ensure supplies of offal for poultry and other purposes. It is a matter of indifference to the wheat-grower whether his wheat is exported in the form of grain or of flour. For the above reasons, it is not proposed to diminish the export quota for flour below the export in 1932-33, provided that the Federal Flour Mill-owners' Association is satisfied that the export this year will reach the same proportions as that of last year. The export of flour during 1932-33 was the equivalent of 30,000,000 bushels of wheat. This was in excess of the export during 1930-31 and 1931-32. Allowing 30,000,000 bushels to cover flour exports, the total amount of grain which may be exported is 75,000,000 bushels. Export at present is handled by voluntary pools in the States of Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia, and by independent persons and exporters in all States. The anticipated crop surplus of 30,000,000 bushels, and the carry-over from the 1932-33 season as at the 1st August, 1933, must be provided for until the 31st July, 1934, after which it may be exported. Arrangements must be made to ensure that this wheat will be freely purchased, if it is freely offered by farmers. No legislation will he necessary in order to ensure compliance with the agreement, while at the same time providing for the ready purchase from farmers of the surplus which cannot be exported till the 31st July, 1934. The following procedure is proposed : - A proclamation will be issued under the Customs Act prohibiting export of grain and flour except under permit. Licences will be issued to all exporters, and quotas will be allotted under conditions which I shall define. Exporters of flour and grain will be required to furnish particulars of their exports of these commodities, the flour exporters for the year 1932-33, and the grain exporters for the three years from August, 1930, to July, 1933 ; and the percentage of the business conducted by them during that period will be the basis for calculating their quota of the current year's export. They must give an assurance that they are still actively engaged in the export of wheat or flour, and that they have reasonable anticipations of being able to engage in the trade during the current year to the extent of their allotted quotas. Licences to export will be subject to conditions. Each licensed exporter will be required to undertake to buy from farmers, so long as they are freely offering wheat for sale, or to hold for farmers and make advances in respect thereof, onebushel of wheat for every two bushels which he is entitled to export during the year from the 1st August, 1933, to the 31st July, 1934, this being necessary to ensure sale for the estimated carry-over on the 1st August, 1934, of 52,500,000 bushels, which is exactly half the export quota. If the exporter elects to hold on behalf of farmers, he will be required to make advances to farmers in the usual proportions in which advances are made by the pools, and under similar conditions. The responsibility of the licensed exporter tobuy wheat for holding, or to hold wheat on farmers' account, will stand so long as farmers are freely offering wheat on the market. If, at any time, there is stagnation in the movement of wheat, indicating that exporters are not acting up to their obligations, the Minister for Commerce will have power to call upon exporters to purchase wheat or hold it on farmers' behalf, for deferred export, in theproportion of one bushel for every two bushels already exported by them. 3543 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr Nock - What about the price? 3543 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - It will be fixed exactly as at the present time - by competition. Competition for the handling of wheat will be entirely unrestricted. Any licensed exporter may purchase wheat in excess of his quota. So long as wheat is flowing freely the question of fulfilment of the obligations of individual exporters will not arise. The Minister's powers are available for use, however, if at any time there is any lag in the movement of wheat. 3543 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - How will it be determined whether the wheat is " freely offering," irrespective of the price? Mr.STEWART. - Wheat will be regarded as freely offering if the farmers desire to sell it. The Government is hopeful that the upward trend will be such that the farmers will desire to receive advances rather than sell. Exporters who purchase for holding will be given assurance that, in the calculation of the 1934-35 export quotas, the amount of wheat, held by them on the 31st July, 1934, may be freely exported after that date, and that the total amount of wheat so held will be deducted from the total permitted export in 1934-35 before quotas for that year are calculated. In other words, there i3 a big inducement for .shippers to purchase some of this carry-over wheat, because it will not operate against their quota next year. That has operated tremendously in favour of the grower. The working of the plan will be subject to review by the Minister from time "to time. For this purpose the various interests will be invited to nominate representatives to form .a consultative committee, which will meet monthly under the chairmanship of the Minister for Commerce. This consultative committee would comprise representatives of Australian wheat-growers, the voluntary pools, the grain exporters, and the flour exporters. I may say that no licensed exporter will have a vested interest in the quota initially allotted to him. The allocation of quotas at the outset is necessary to provide a working basis. If circumstances arise which, in the opinion of the Minister, justify a revision of the basis of allocation, the Minister will take action accordingly. As a result of my consultations with the various interests concerned, I am satisfied that the plan devised will work satisfactorily and that finance will readily be available to the pools and the merchants to enable them to observe their obligations to hold wheat, on farmers' account, for subsequent export. 3544 F4Q Yarra 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN .- by leave- - I should not have asked for the privilege of addressing the House at this stage were it not for the fact that, in my opinion, at least a warning note should be struck immediately in the interests of the growers. The principle should be laid down that if the Government interferes with the free disposal of a commodity produced in tins country, and forces the growers to withhold 'from 30,000,000 to 50,000.000 bushels of their product, the obligation rests on it to finance the canyover. That , is the first proposition I submit for the Government's consideration. In the second place, I think that it is unsatisfactory that the growers should be left at the mercy of the buyers. It will be impossible to determine the meaning of the expression " freely offering for sale." It may be claimed that the farmers are not freely offering their wheat, because they are not offering it at the price submitted to them by the buyers. This arrangement, I fear, will give an opportunity to the buyers to bring down the price early in the season to enable them to make a profit later. The only satisfactory way to give protection to the growers is to establish a compulsory national pool, financed by the Government of the day. If the growers are left at the mercy of the buyers, they will fare hardly. The present proposal is that the buyers who receive licences shall have the option of either buying the wheat offered, or holding it and making an advance upon it. 3544 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - That is all that a compulsory pool would do. 3544 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr SCULLIN - If I had the time at my disposal I could show that there is a difference in the case of such a pool, but I am dealing with the present proposal of the Government. The amount of the advance will not be the full value of a proportion of the wheat, calculated on a conservative basis, to protect the buyer or the pool, as the case may be; the Government is taking action to deprive the grower of his opportunity to sell his crop outright. That will impose a greater disability on a grower the poorer he is, and, because of this restriction, he must content himself with having a large proportion of his crop unsold. Nothing will be done to ensure to him the money for his wheat to enable him to carry on his operations. I repeat that the obligation rests on the Government to finance, through the Commonwealth Bank, the whole of the carry-over wheat of the growers who are refused an opportunity to sell it- 3544 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- by leave - Speaking as Acting Leader of the Country party, I regret that I have not had an opportunity to peruse carefully the long statement made by the Minister. It is difficult to express an opinion ou all the details without a close examination, but the announcement, I am sure, will be most unsatisfactory to the wheatgrowers of Australia. The Government has a great responsibility in this matter. I am aware that it has entered into the agreement against its wish ; but although this plan has been forced upon Ministers, it is their absolute duty to see that the interests of the growers are conserved. The statement that wheat may be " freely offered for sale " leads me to say that the great majority of the growers will have no other recourse than to send it in immediately, and they will have to accept any price offered, which everybody knows, is at present wholly and absolutely unprofitable. It is impossible for this great industry to be carried on in Australia at the price at. present ruling, yet the future of the industry means much to Australia. If the wheat-growers collapse, the whole nation will suffer. The only two methods by which the Government can assist the growers are by the formation of a compulsory pool, or by the imposition of a sales tax on flour for the purpose of making provision for the payment of a bounty to the wheatgrowers. Owing to the deplorable fianancial circumstances of these producers, they will have to sell their wheat at whatever prices they can get, and this will mean absolute disaster to those who have not already been ruined by the low prices that they have received for many years. This Government, which at one time viewed a compulsory wheat pool with a sort of holy horror, now proposes to take control of the whole of the export trade of this country without making one single provision for the protection of the producer. Its action is hardly understandable. I have not yet been able to judge the effect of this proposal on the export trade of Western Australia. In one year that State exported more than half of the wheat shipped from Australia, mtd in the last four years it produced fully one-third, if not more, of the total wheat exported. Before this scheme is put into operation, we should make a careful examination to ascertain how it will affect the individual States. * Now that the Government is taking control of the wheat industry, the responsibility rests upon it to ensure that the wheat-growers receive a reasonable price for their product. As other industries have been fully protected, it is the wish of the great majority of honorable members that at least some protection should be given to the wheat-growers. 3545 JOM West Sydney 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY , - by leave - I join with the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) in saying that the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) should have circulated among honorable members copies of his statement prior to its delivery, and I hope that in future when copies of ministerial statements are made available to the press other copies will be distributed among honorable members. 3545 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - Copies were not made available to the press until after the Minister for Commerce had delivered his statement in the House. 3545 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Copies should be made available to honorable members at least as soon as they are supplied to the press. The question of calling upon the farmer to dispose freely of his wheat opens up a wide field of discussion. For instance, will a farmer be considered to be not " freely disposing " of his wheat if he sees fit to hold it because the price he is offered is below the cost of production? We who represent those directly engaged in secondary production have constantly fought to ensure them a proper return for their labour, and therefore it is only reasonable that we should try to obtain for those engaged in primary production an adequate return for their products. It appears to me that under the Government's proposals a wheat' merchant, by determining that a farmer is not freely offering his wheat for sale, will be able to prevent him from disposing of it for export. As the result the small farmer, particularly, is likely to be placed, in a serious position, having generally to dispose of his product immediately it is ready for sale in order to satisfy the demands of such creditors as implement makers, banking institutions, fertilizer companies and others. I am utterly opposed to the Government taking any action to place these small farmers in the hands of the exporters. In my youth, I was associated with farming activities, and I know that even in normal times the market can be manipulated to the disadvantage of the grower. I have known of occasions upon which merchants have sidetracked trucks of grain to keep it off the market, and so enable them to force the growers to accept a price much lower than that which they would have received had proper methods of competition been operating. The merchants play no part in the production of wheat, yet they rake off a profit much greater than the actual return to the grower. I am opposed to any scheme under which powers greater than they possess in normal times will be given to these merchants. I join wholeheartedly with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) in stating that if the Government takes control of the export of wheat as is no doubt its intention under the international agreement which it has signed, it should make provision for the growers on the lines of that suggested by the farmers of Western Australia, who, at a meeting held on Monday night last, carried a motion similar to that which I moved in this House last Friday, requesting the Government to guarantee to the growers, at least, a price of 3s. a bushel for their wheat at country sidings. I urge the Government to come .to the rescue of the wheat-growers, and not to allow the merchants to " bear " them as they have done in the past. A guarantee of 3s. a bushel would go a long way towards enabling the farmers to meet their commitments. Later: 3546 KAY Corangamite 0 0 GIBSON, William Mr GIBSON - Will the Prime Minister state when honorable members will have an opportunity to discuss the statements which the Minister for Commerce has just made with regard to wheat? 3546 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - At the proper time, a definite proposal will be submitted to Parliament. Honorable members will then have full opportunity to discuss the matter. 3546 KLL Hindmarsh 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - Will the Minister for Commerce inform me whether the consultations which have taken place during the week-end in regard to the wheat situation have included a consultation with the Federated Australian Wheat Growers Association? If the views of that .body have not been obtained in any way will the Minister see that it is recognized when any further consultations or conferences are held. 3546 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - If the association referred to by the honorable member is that represented by Mr. Bussau, I have had consultations with that gentleman in Melbourne. 3546 KPN Wimmera 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Hugh Mr MCCLELLAND - Will the Minister inform me what agreement, if any, has been reached by the exporting countries that are parties to the wheat agreement as to the exportation by each exporting country of a smaller quota in the event of the importing countries not requiring the estimated 562,000,000 bushels? 3546 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The estimate of 562,000,000 bushels was made after most exhaustive inquiries into the harvest prospects of the season, .and the conference was, of course, in a position, at the time the agreement was made, to make a reasonably accurate calculation of what those expectations would be in the northern hemisphere, particularly in Europe. No suggestion has been made to me that the estimate of 562,000,000 bushels as the import demand for this year has been in any way shaken. 3547 Questions 3546 Germany's Withdrawal 3546 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - In view of the statement made by the Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Latham) in the press regarding Germany's notification of withdrawal from the League of Nations and the Disarmament Conference, will the Prime Minister make a considered statement to this House giving the Government's views on this question? 3546 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The statement which was given to the press at a time -when the House was not sitting was an indication of the general attitude of the Government to the question raised by the honorable member. A considered statement will shortly be made to the House on the subject. Later: 3546 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - In view of the fact that Germany has joined Japan, Russia, and the United States of America, by withdrawing from the League of Nations, does the Prime Minister consider that Australia should continue its contributions towards the upkeep of this futile organization? Also, will he consider saving the expenSe involved in the High Commissioner's attendance at alleged disarmament conferences, and find for him, instead, some useful employment, so that Australia may receive an adequate return for the large outlay of public money required to maintain him overseas? 3547 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Nothing has occurred which, in the opinion of the Government, would justify the action suggested by the honorable member's question. 3547 3547 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - I have received a number of letters from hospital authorities in my electorate, all complaining that their telephone rates have been increased by 50 per cent. Will the Postmaster-General inquire into this matter with a view to restoring the original rates? 3547 KXQ UAP 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - The position is not quite that suggested by the honorable member. It was the practice of the department for a number of years to give to hospitals, ambulances, and other similar State organizations, the privilege of half rates for ground rental and telephone calls. As these concessions were costing the department a considerable sum of money, it was considered necessary to curtail them to the extent of charging the usual,ground rental and half rates as before for calls. These are all State organizations maintained by State funds, and the concession given by the Federal Government through the Postal Department is really in the nature of a Commonwealth grant to State instrumentalities. This grant is becoming too large, but, in deference to the honorable member's representations, I shall give the matter he has raised further consideration. 3547 3547 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - Some time ago the Minister for Health stated that pensioners who had had their pensions reduced because they were in receipt of war pensions would have the amount made up by the Repatriation Department. There are in Australia many persons in receipt of Imperial war pensions, but, up to the present, the concession referred to by the Minister has not been extended to them. Will the Government consider placing both classes of pensioners on the same footing? 3547 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I shall look into the matter to see whether the honorable member's request can be acceded to. 3547 3547 KX9 0 0 WATKINS, David Mr WATKINS - I understand that the Prime Minister has received a wireless message asking for the restoration of the Papuan grant, as promised to the people of Papua by a previous Minister for Home and Territories. This grant was reduced from £50,000 to £34,000; but, in view of the hardships being experienced by many of the planters, it should be restored. Will the Government take steps to ensure that the residents of the Commonwealth Territory of Papua are treated at least as liberally as those residing in territory held under mandate for other nations? 3547 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - The grant to Papua was reduced from £40,000 to £34,000 by the present Government, the reduction from £50,000 to £40,000 having been made by a previous government. The ' present Government recognizes the position of the people of Papua, and is giving consideration to the problem which confronts them, and to the suggestion that the grant should 'be restored to the original amount. In addition to the grant of £34,000 last year, a grant was also made in regard to the production of rubber. That grant has been renewed, the current Estimates showing an amount of £30,000 set aside for this purpose, although, a3 the duty on rubber has been reduced from 4d. to 2d. per lb., the amount may need, to be reduced. 3547 3547 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - Having regard to the urgent necessity of restarting the shale oil industry at Newnes, will the Prime Minister take steps to ensure that the final report of the Shale Oil Investigation Committee shall be presented as early as possible after the return from abroad of Mr. Rogers, the Commonwealth oil fuel expert? 3547 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Senator McLachlan, who has been handling this subject, has informed me that he has learned from the chairman of the Investigation Committee that the report may be expected early in December. 3548 Miscellaneous 3548 KIU Denison 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr HUTCHIN - I desire to make a personal explanation. In the Age newspaper of Saturday last, there is a report dealing with pensions, and it purports to give an account of a party meeting held in Canberra. In the course of the report the following words occur: - The first hint of the trouble was given at a meeting oi the United Australia party yesterday, when critical speeches were delivered by Messrs. Hutchin, Dein, Lane, and several other Government members. That report was entirely unauthorized, and is wholly untrue. My comment on the budget, insofar as it related to the Financial Relief Bill, was made during the second-reading debate on that measure, and my comment on the remainder of the budget will be made at a later date. 3548 Questions 3548 3548 KFA CP 0 0 GREEN, Roland Mr R GREEN - On the first day that Parliament assembled for the present session, and on more than one occasion since, I have asked the Minister for Commerce questions relating to the plan for the stabilization in Australia of butter marketing. Will he state whether it is a fact that, on Friday last, the Parliament of Victoria gave permission for the introduction of a bill to deal with this matter, and has the Minister received any official information from New South Wales and Queensland regarding their intentions? 3548 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - I have no knowledge of the occurrence to which the honorable member refers, but I read in the press to-day that certain State Governments are contemplating legislation along the lines he indicates. As I have previously stated, the arrangement made at the conference of Premiers in Victoria a little while ago was that consultations should take place between the various States on this matter, and the results thereof conveyed to the Commonwealth Government. The representative of the Commonwealth Government gave an assurance that immediately on receipt of this information sympathetic consideration would be given by the Commonwealth Government to the passage of complementary Commonwealth legislation. Up to the present moment I have received no word that any consultation has taken place between the States. 3548 3548 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - Has the Postmaster-General yet received from the Australian Broadcasting Commission the report of the commission's activities during the year ended the 30th June last? Can he say whether it is true that the commission intends to enter the publishing business by issuing the report in booklet form? 3548 KXQ UAP 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - The commission's annual report has not yet been received, but I understand that it is nearing completion. When it is received it will be laid on the table of the House. I have no knowledge of the matter referred to in the second part of the honorable member's question. 3548 3548 KAY 0 0 GIBSON, William Mr GIBSON - Will the Postmaster-General inform me whether the net profit of £82,000 announced by Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited for last year is equal to the amount paid by the Government, to this company at the rate of 3s. for each listener's licence? 3548 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill Speaking from memory, 3s. out of each listener's licence fee paid under agreement to Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited for the use of patent rights, represented from £60,000 to £70,000 last year, and so would be slightly smaller than the amount of profit stated by" the honorable member. 3548 3548 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Has the attention of the Minister for Commerce been directed to the action of the fruit-growers at Kurrajong Heights, who, being unable to find a market for their product, sent a consignment of mandarins to Sydney for distribution among the unemployed, the freight being paid by the Australian Labour Party? If the Minister has seen this report, will he say what action he intends to take to help these growers, and in the meantime will he guarantee the freight charges on any other consignments of mandarins sent to Sydney for distribution among the unemployed? 3549 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - My attention has not been drawn to the particular circumstances referred to by the honorable member, but the Government has given considerable attention to the disposal of the citrus crop, and has agreed to reimburse exporters of citrus fruits to the full extent of their financial outlay. 3549 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - But that does not cover mandarins. 3549 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr STEWART - The Government has also given consideration to the disposal of the mandarin crop. This, of course, is essentially a State matter, but I have been in consultation with the Minister for Agriculture of New South Wales with the object of taking joint action in this regard. Negotiations are still proceeding, but no results can yet be announced. 3549 3549 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Will the Minister for the Interior inform me what action his department is taking to apprehend the murderers of Constable McColl in Arnheim Land? Is it the intention of the Government to send a police escort to protect the peace mission during its visit to Caledon Bay? 3549 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - Action in connexion with this matter has not yet been finalized. It is hoped that some arrangement will be made for a peace expedition to visit Arnheim Land in the near future. I am not able to say more on the subject at the moment. 3549 3549 K0D 0 0 COLLINS, Thomas Mr COLLINS - Will the Minister for Repatriation inform me whether it is a fact that the funeral expenses of deceased destitute ex-soldiers are borne by the Government? Is any provision made for the erection of headstones on the graves of such men? If not, will the Government make provision for this to be done, irrespective of the cause of death? 3549 KMW UAP 1 0 MARR, Charles Mr MARR - Provision is made by the Repatriation Department for paying the funeral expenses of ex-soldiers in certain cases in order that no returned man shall be buried in a pauper's grave. The department has contributed as much as £15 towards the funeral expenses of deceasedexsoldiers in certain cases. The erection of tombstones on the graves of ex-soldiers is not a matter for attention by the Repatriation Department, but if the honorable member furnishes me with any suggestions in this direction, I shall be glad to submit them to the Government for consideration. 3549 3549 JVT 0 0 NELSON, Harold Mr NELSON - Will the Minister for the Interior inform me whether, in view of the possibility of an important discovery of gold at Tennant's Creek, the department will despatch a geologist to the locality in order to obtain an independent report upon the field? I should also like to know when the Government intends to appoint a qualified assayer to assist those who are practically interested in mining development of Central Australia? 3549 KXY UAP 1 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - I shall see that attention is given to the two matters mentioned by the honorable member. 3549 3549 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - Will the Assistant Minister in charge of war service homes inform me whether it is the policy of the Government to dispose of war service homes in cases where occupiers are meeting current payments as requested by the department? 3549 JWT UAP 1 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - As I have explained on many occasions, it has certainly never been the policy of the Government to act in that way. 3549 Papers The following papers were presented: - Australian Soldiers' Repatriation Act - Repatriation Commission - Report for the year ended 30th June, 1933. War Pensions Entitlement Appeal Tribunal - Report for year ended 30th June, 1933. Ordered to be printed. Defence Department - Estimates, 1933-34 - Explanatory Statement prepared by direction of the Minister for Defence. Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. - 1933 - No.6 - Amalgamated Postal Workers' Union of Australia; Australian Postal Electricians' Union ; Australian Workers' Union; Commonwealth Public Service Artisans' Association; Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association ; Fourth Division Postmasters, Postal Clerks and Telegraphists' Union; Line Inspectors' Association.. Commonwealth Public Service; Arms, Explosives and Munition Workers Federation of Australia; Commonwealth Naval Storehousemen's Association; and Commonwealth Storemen and Packers' Union of Australia. No. 7 - Arms. Explosives and Munition Workers' Federation of Australia; Amalgamated Engineering Union: and Australasian Society of Engineers. No. 8 - Commonwealth Foremen's Association. No. 9 - Amalgamated '.Postal Workers' Union of Australia; Australian Postal Electricians' Union; Australian Third Division Telegraphists and Postal Clerks' Union; Australian Workers Union ; Commonwealth Medical Officers' Association; Commonwealth Postmasters' Association; Commonwealth Public Service Artisans' Association; Commonwealth. Public Service Clerical Association; Commonwealth Telephone Officers' Association ; Commonwealth Temporary Clerks' Association; Federated Public Service Assistants' Association of Australia : Fourth Division Officers' Association of the Trade and Customs Department: Fourth Division Postmasters. Postal Clerks and Telegraphists' Union; Line Inspectors' Association, Commonwealth of Australia.: Meat Inspectors' Association, Commonwealth Public Service; Postal Overseers' Union of Australia; and Professional Officers' Association, Commonwealth Public Service. No. .10 - Meat Inspectors' Association, Commonwealth Public Service. No. 11 - Amalgamated Postal Workers Union of Australia; and Australian Workers' Union. No. 12 - Arms, Explosives and Munition Workers' Federation of Australia. No. 13 - Arms, Explosives and Munition Workers' Federation of Australia; Commonwealth Foremen's Association; Commonwealth Naval Storehousemen's Association; and Commonwealth Storemen and Packers' Union of Australia. No. 14 - Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association; and Australian Postal Electricians' Union. No. 15 - Arms, Explosives and Munition Workers Federation of Australia ; Commonwealth Storemen and Packers' Union of Australia; and Commonwealth Naval Storehousemen's Association. Commonwealth -Bank Act - Treasurer's Statement of combined accounts of Commonwealth Bank and Commonwealth Savings Bank, at 30th June, 1933, together with certificate of the Auditor-General. Defence Act - Peculations amended - Statutory Pules 1933. No. 110. Naval Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Pules 1933, No. 1.12. Public Service Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1933. No. 1H. Wine Overseas Marketing Act - Fifth Annual Report of the Wine Overseas Marketing Board for the year ended 30th June, 1933.. together with u statement by the Minister regarding the operation of the Act. 3550 Bill Message recommending appropriation reported. In committee (Consideration of Governor-General's message): Motion (by Mr. Lyons) agreed to - That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of st bill for an act to provide relief to taxpayers, to amend laws relating to financial emergency, and for other purposes. Resolution reported and- - roy leave - adopted. Second Reading Debate resumed from the 13th October (vide page 3540), on motion by Mr. Lyons - That the bill be now read a. second time. Upon which Mr. Forde had moved by way of amendment - That all the words after " That " be omitted with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "the bill he withdrawn and redrafted to provide for the complete restoration of the percentage reductions in Public Service salaries, wages, pensions and social service!?." 3550 JWE Corio UAP Assistant Treasurer 1 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY . - In a number of the speeches delivered on the motion for the second reading of this bill, and particularly in that of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), reference was made to matters that are not definitely mentioned in the measure. I hope, sir, that, in replying to some of the points raised, you will give me the same privileges that you have extended to other honorable members. 3550 10000 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr SPEAKER (Hon G H Mackay - Order! To what is the Assistant Treasurer referring?- 3550 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I am not casting any reflection upon the Chair. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred, for instance, to matters relating to taxation. 3550 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Assistant Treasurer must proceed with his speech. The Chair will indicate when his remarks are out of order. 3551 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The principal contention of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition was that the budget, on which this bill is based, is a rich man's budget, that the Government is ladling out a million or so to its wealthy friends, and is offering only a few crumbs to those most needing assistance. Opposition Members. - Hear, hear ! 3551 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I am glad to have the assurance of honorable members opposite that I have not misinterpreted the remarks of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It is worth while analysing what is a good catch-cry, which may have the effect desired by honorable members opposite. Let us first of all examine the remissions of taxation and the increased expenditure to see if this charge can be sustained. In order to do so, I shall deal briefly with the different exemptions of taxation proposed, to see what class of the community will benefit, and then with the increase of expenditure, in order to show who will be assisted. In the first place, the rate imposed on companies is to be reduced from1s. 4.8d. to ls. in the £1. As stated by the right honorable the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) in his budget speech, this remission will relieve principally taxpayers in the lower range. Those with higher incomes will continue to pay tax at the rates appropriate to the total incomes, and, consequently, will not benefit by this particular remission. I have taken the trouble to analyse the figures with respect to the number of taxpayers in Australia, and I find that 75 per cent. have a taxable income of from £1 to £300, thus showing that by far the greater number are in the lower range. An amount of £585,000 is being remitted by the Commonwealth in consequence of its action in reducing the company rate. If 75 per cent. of the taxpayers are in the lower range, it cannot be said that the Government is assisting its so-called wealthy friends. It is also a fact that the taxation imposed upon this section has never been so low as it is to-day - it is lower than when the tax was originally imposed in 1915-16 - while the rate paid by the remainder, though now to be reduced, is still considerably higher than it was originally in 1915-16. The charge made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition cannot, therefore, be sustained. In consequence of the remissions proposed with respect to life assurance companies, £710,000 will be lost to revenue as the result of the new method to be employed. This is a technical matter, full particulars of which will be given in committee. There are about 2,500,000 ordinary life and industrial insurance policies in operation in Australia, representing a total of over £350,000,000, or an average of about £150 for each policy. The object of the proposed reduction of taxation is to assist these companies for the benefit of policy-holders and debtors. I am surprised that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition should be opposed to this reduction. 3551 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - I did not say one word against it. 3551 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The honorable member included the concession to life insurance companies with other proposed remissions of taxation. 3551 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - That represents only one-tenth of the total. 3551 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The honorable member's charge had the support of his party. The alteration of the rate of tax on incomes from personal exertion will affect the revenue by £200,000 a year, and will be of especial benefit to taxpayers with small incomes. These taxpayers will also be the principal beneficiaries of the reduction of indirect taxation by an amount estimated at 4.3 millionpounds a year. Of that sum, about £750,000 represents primage duty on commodities including beer and tea, which are consumed chiefly by the average taxpayer. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is inconsistent regarding the duty on tea. He said that the small reduction of the primage duty on tea was scarcely worth making, yet about two years ago he moved that the duty on this commodity should be reduced. 3551 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - The tea merchants have said that they cannot pass on so small a reduction of duty to the consumers of tea. 3551 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - Would that not also have applied to the reduction of duty which the honorable member himself proposed two years ago? It is true that whereas he then proposed a reduction of the duty from 4d. to 2d. perlb., the present proposal is for a reduction from 4d. to 3d. per lb.; but with the removal of the primage duty on tea, the two proposals are practically the same. The extension of the list of articles to be exempted from the sales tax, and the general reduction of the tax from 6 per cent. to 5 per cent., will, it is estimated, result in a loss of £2,500,000 per annum to the revenue of the Commonwealth; yet the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the alteration was scarcely worth making. He complained that the reduction amounted to only about l1/4d. in 10s., but I remind him that the whole of the sales tax at present in force is equal to only about. 71/4d. in every 10s. His chief complaint was that the reduction of the sales tax by 1 per cent. would not be passed on to the consumers. Are we to understand that the honorable gentleman is opposed to the reduction? He must be either for it, or against it. I assure him that a large majority of the people of this country are enthusiastic about the proposal to reduce the rate from 6 per cent. to 5 per cent. Additional expenditure contemplated in the budget includes £635,000 a year to pensioners, £550,000 to public servants as a partial restoration of amounts taken from them, and £248,000 to war pensioners. I emphasize the values of these concessions to persons with small incomes. The man in the street will gain at least £1,000,000 from the reductions of direct taxation, and a further 4.3 million pounds from the reductions of indirect taxation. Of the total benefits amounting to £9,500,000 per annum, which taxpayers will derive from the Government's budget proposals, about £7,000,000 will go to the taxpayers with small incomes. If will be seen, therefore, that the charge of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the Government proposes to ladle out millions of pounds to its friends, is without foundation. 3552 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Will the Minister explain why there has been a stock exchange boom ? 3552 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I am not aware that there has been such a boom. Although most of the suggestions and criticisms of honorable members are matters for consideration in committee, there are a few points to which I desire to refer now. One of them, is the misconception in the mind of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition regarding the effect of any cost of living reduction on the pay of public servants. In future, any reduction of pay due to a fall in the cost of living will take place only after the original cuts have been absorbed in cases in which real cuts still exist. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Beasley) quoted figures from a publication issued by the Commonwealth Statistician regarding the capital liabilities and assets of life insurance companies, and said that although the capital of these companies was under £2,000,000, their liabilities amounted to £108,000,000, and their assets to £148,000,000. The honorable member's misunderstanding of the position is excusable, because the tables from which he evidently obtained his information do not contain any footnotes to show that the capital of the mutual companies is not included. 3552 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Nor are any other figures relating to the mutual companies included. 3552 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - A mutual company really has no capital, and although it is true that the non-mutual companies, which exist to make profits for their shareholders, have not a large amount of capital,it is true also that they transact only a. small proportion of the business done. A true understanding of the position can be gained only by assuming some capitalization for the great mutual companies. The honorable gentleman suggested that the life insurance companies had stored away somewhere "kidney fat" amounting to about £40,000,000. The figures quoted by him apply only to the Australian assets and liabilities of these companies. I am assured that a number of them do a considerable volume of overseas business, which, if taken into account, balances their assets and liabilities. Many companies do not distinguish in their balance-sheets between Australian and foreign liabilities. Mr.Forde. - Where did the Minister get that information? 3552 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I obtained it during a long conversation with the Statistician.. Other aspects of insurance which have been mentioned will be dealt with in committee. I understood the honorable member for West Sydney to say, when speaking of the future application of the cost of living index figure to the amount of a pension, that, before a pensioner could get his pension increased by 6d. a week, prices would have to get back to the 1929 level. That is not so. A return to 1929 price-levels would entail the restoration of the pensions to £1 a week. Prices would not have to rise to anything like the 1929 level to justify an increase of 6d. a week in the pension. 3553 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - The index figure would need to rise above 1600 before a pension of £1 a week would be paid. 3553 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - I am not surprised that the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson) is under a misapprehension regarding those pensioners who earn over 2s. 6d. a week. I hasten to assure him that the provision of which he complains will be wiped out entirely by this bill, and that in future a pensioner will be able to earn 12s. 6d. a week, or enjoy an income of that amount, without his maximum pension of 17s. 6d. a week being affected. 3553 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - He could do that before the act was amended last year. 3553 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The bill restores the position that existed before the amendment was made last year. 3553 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGrath - Can a pensioner have an income of 12s. 6d. a. week without his maximum pension being affected ? 3553 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - Yes. Referring to the relief from taxation that is being granted to shipping companies, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) claimed that this section of industry has not been called upon to make any sacrifice in recent years, yet it is to enjoy the benefit of a reduction of taxation from 1\ to 5 per cent. That matter, too, will be dealt with in committee, but I should like to point out that the tax on shipping companies has been by an arbitrary assessment on a percentage of the total receipts earned by them in Australia from freights and passenger fares. That method, which may not have been a completely equitable way of meeting the situation, was adopted for want of a better, for there are many difficulties encountered when taxing oversea shipping companies operating in Australia. The Government believes that some relief is due to this branch of industry in view of the reduction of freight rates that has been made lately, and in anticipation of further benefits in this direction. The honorable member also complained about the taxation relief that is to be given to insurance companies. As I have already stated, this will represent a definite benefit to 2,500,000 policy-holders in Australia, the vast majority of whom have small policies ranging from £100 to £150. 3553 KMZ 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr Martens - In what way will they be benefited ? 3553 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - Less money will betaken from the companies by taxation, and that will enable them to charge lower premiums or pay higher bonuses, or, iu the case of the stronger companies, pass on the relief to debtors. The action of the Government in this respect is completely defensible, and, no doubt, will be further discussed in committee. The honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) claimed that the Commonwealth Government was continuing to operate unjustifiably in fields of taxation which were intended to bc exclusive to the States. The matter has come in for a great deal of controversy, and I cannot see that any good purpose would be served by dealing with it cursorily on an occasion such as this. The enormous increase in expenditure on social services and the incidence of the war, including a debt of hundreds of millions of pounds, for which the Commonwealth is wholly responsible has entirely altered the relative position of the Commonwealth and the States, and the attitude of the Federal Parliament can be completely defended. I have studied this subject closely, and if the honorable member can throw fresh light on it I shall be glad to hear his views on another occasion. To refer to it casually in this debate is merely to add fuel to the fires of contention. I believe that his object in referring to the subject on this bill was to imply that if the Government had the will, so to do, the taxpayers could be saved millions of pounds. His reasoning is entirely fallacious. The honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Baker) had occasion to say that the Government would become possessed of hundreds of thousands of pounds as the result of 12,074 persons having surrendered their pensions: He also referred to what he thought was a discrepancy iu figures which were given in the budget speech. He stated that, as the expenditure on invalid and old-age pensions for last year was £10,771,061, and the estimate for 1933-34 is £11,000,000, the Prime Minister should have given £228,939, and not £635,000, as the additional expenditure on pensions for the present year. The figure given by the Prime Minister represents the annual increase' in the expenditure and is quite easily explained by the fact that the decreases in payments which were inaugurated in October last operated only for a portion of the last financial year, and the proposed restorations also will operate only for a portion of the current financial year. When those two factors are equated, and the difference taken out, the figures given in the budget speech will be found to be correct. A number of honorable members have referred to sales tax- exemptions. For the information of all, the Government has had printed a complete list of sales tax exemptions, in alphabetical order, and that was laid on the table and circulated on Friday last. Honorable members of the Country party should be particularly interested, because by far the most formidable ' section is that which relates to exemptions on primary products. The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) said that, in his opinion, insurance companies would not pass on the benefits they will derive from the decrease of taxation. That is a misconception with which I hope to deal in committee. The honorable member claimed that it would be more beneficial to retain the sales tax at 6 per cent, and use the money that is now being remitted in other directions, including the complete restoration of social services and salaries. Few will agree with him for whilst the benefits he suggests would be merely sectional, the reduction of the sales tax by 1 per cent, will be enjoyed by the whole community. 3554 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Does the honorable gentleman believe that an additional 1 per cent, of sales tax deters persons from buying goods? 3554 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - The proposed reduction will leave in the pockets of the people £1,350,000 to be spent in other directions, and I am confident that a majority favour a 5 per cent, rather than a 6 per cent, sales tax. The honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson) made a point which should be answered, because it might leave a misconception in the minds of some honorable members. It might be inferred from his remarks concerning the collection of income tax by the Commonwealth Government' that, in recent months, trickery has been used in holding back assessments in order to affect the budget figures. That assumption is quite inaccurate. The honorable member said that £3,500,000 had been collected in income tax during the first three months of this financial year. That figure is quite correct. I have discussed the matter at length with treasury officials, who assured me that no attempt has been made to juggle income tax collections. On the 30th April last the net debit of tax amounted to 13.3 million pounds, while at the 30th June the figure was 16.5 million pounds. As the honorable member is aware, taxpayers are allowed 60 days in which to pay their assessments. As might have been expected, the increase in the amount of tax outstanding has been noticeable since the depression set in. The amount at the 30th June this year represented an increase over last year, when the total outstanding was also greater than in the previous year. This position is due to the difficulty experienced by taxpayers in meeting the requirements of the law. Almost every honorable member, I suppose, has received letters from constituents asking him to use his influence to induce the department to allow more time for the payment of the tax. Honorable members of the Country party, I may add, have not been backward, and, I think, rightly so, in bringing before the department requests of this nature. These applications, with regard to overdue taxes, and amounts in dispute, and the sympathetic attitude of the department, have been responsible for late collections of taxation in recent years. In this respect the position this year bears, I should say, a good relation to that of last year, so there is no justification for the implication in the remarks Of the honorable member for New England that the Taxation Department, acting under instructions, held back assessments this year. 3555 KVU 0 0 THOMPSON, Victor Mr Thompson - I did not imply that the department had been acting under instructions. 3555 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr CASEY - That, at all events, was the very definite impression which I gained from the honorable member's speech, and I think all honorable members will agree, that he inferred that some "funny business" had been going on in regard to collections of income tax this year. 3555 KHL Melbourne Ports 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY . - I agree with the Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Casey) that this bill can more profitably be discussed in committee. I support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), that the bill be withdrawn and re-drafted to provide for the complete restoration of the percentage reductions made in Public Service salaries and wages, pensions and social services. The bill is a violation of a definite promise made by the previous Government, with the approval and unanimous support of every honorable member then in this House, that the legislation under which reductions were made would be regarded as an emergency measure, and that the whole of the cuts made in salaries, pensions and social services would be restored before action was taken to give to other sections of the community relief from taxation. No one contemplated that Parliament would be asked to consider legislation of this kind until the whole of those cuts had been restored. I hope that the amendment will be carried, so that the Government will be forced to withdraw the bill and re-cast it, in such a way as to give effect to the solemn undertaking given by this Parliament to the people of Australia. I do not suggest that the hill does not contain some proposals which every honorable member could support; but that is not the point. My chief objection to the bill is that it will not benefit adequately the poorest section of our people, who have been obliged to make such heavy sacrifices during the last few years, while it gives substantial relief to the wealthier classes. In offering this objection to the bill, I do not wish it to be inferred that I object to relief from taxation being given to any section of the people. My objection is based on the fact that it ignores the promise given by Parliament when the emergency legislation was passed while, at the same time, the taxation levied upon the well-to-do citizens is to be reduced to a lower level than that which existed prior to the adoption of the Premiers plan. The Assistant Treasurer spoke of the advantages which would accrue to .the people of Australia from the adoption of some of the proposals in this bill. He omitted to mention the Government's proposed remission of land taxation, probably because that is the most difficult to defend at this juncture. I am absolutely opposed to any interference with the existing land tax, and shall vote against those clauses of the bill dealing with this subject. I am also opposed to relief from taxation being given to overseas shipping companies, and, until there has been a complete restoration of the cuts made in salaries, pensions and social services, I shall also oppose relief being given to insurance companies. Remissions of taxation to some insurance companies may be passed on to the people, but I am convinced that these proposals will benefit much more those people who are in good circumstances. The Assistant Treasurer has very much exaggerated the advantages to the working classes of this feature of the Government's financial policy. Those provisions which enable the Government to take advantage of pensioners with life insurance policies are to be kept intact. Nearly all pensioners have, by means of insurance policies, made some provision for their decent burial. The Government is retaining those vile sections which enable it to levy on policies in order to reimburse the Treasury when the pensioners die. This bill will strengthen the policies, and will therefore be of advantage to the Government. My strongest objection to this bill is that while it hands out relief to people who are not in urgent need of it, it is leaving untouched the worst features of the emergency legislation, although the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) has indicated his intention to submit an amendment to make the measure more acceptable. In its present form the bill does not alter any of those provisions in the act which permit the pensions department to levy upon the value of homes left by deceased pensioners. This I regard as one of the worst features of the act. Until it is rectified, and the position is restored to what it was prior to the adoption of the Premiers plan, we shall not be justified in handing out relief to other people in the community, as is contemplated in the bill. Fop the reasons I have stated I shall vote against every clause of the measure. The Assistant Treasurer quoted certain figures to show that the Government's proposals for relief from taxation are well balanced. It has been well said that figures can bo juggled to prove anything. 1 certainly cannot interpret the aggregate relief proposed as the Minister has done. As I understand the position, the Government proposes to restore to invalid and old-age pensioners £635,000, to public servants £550,000, to soldiers' dependants £248,000, and to the superannuation fund £80,000, making £1,500,000 of a total remission of £9,500,000. This sum of £1,500,000 is the only restoration that has been made to those people who made substantial sacrifices under the Premiers plan. 3556 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - It is not so much as was taken from them last year. 3556 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - That is so. Last year the Government could have made the first quota of the restoration had it desired to do so; but when -we on this side argued that that- should be done, the almost cowardly statement was made by some honorable members opposite that if, as we suggested would be the case, thousands of persons voluntarily relinquished the pension rather than prejudice their property rights, that would be definite proof that they were not entitled to it. The Government now says that the repeal of these provisions would involve a loss of revenue amounting to £500,000 or £600,000 per annum. That is a contradiction of the assertion that those who relinquished the pension because they feared that at death their property would not pass to their children, were not entitled to receive it. Surely all fresh applications would have to withstand the searchlight of investigation by the officers of the department! The administration has been so tightened up during the last twelve months that any person who is not entitled to the pension would have his claim rejected. The property provisions in' the present act were never envisaged by those who initiated this social legislation in Australia. Throughout the whole of the debates it will be found that it was never intended to take into consideration the home of a pensioner, whether it was a cottage or a castle, whether its value was £100 or £1,000, so long as it was not used to provide rent, interest, or any other form of profit. That basis was observed until last year. The present proposal is to restore the amount of the pension to what it was when the Lyons Government took office, but does not embrace the repeal of these objectionable provisions, which discriminate against those who have been thrifty, have made greater sacrifices, or have been more fortunate than their fellows, and have obtained homes of their own. In their case, the payment by the Government will be in the nature of a loan. Upon their death, their property, which in the majority of cases has been bought by their children, and, in many cases, partially with the gratuity payment made to returned soldiers, will have to be sold, so that the amount that they have drawn since the enactment of these provisions may be repaid to the Government. Those who occupy their own homes have always been regarded by every government as the best citizens, because they have a stake in the country; yet under this legislation the dependants of pensioners who come within this category are penalized. Surely that was never intended by those who initiated the pensions law! A similar provision does not operate in any other country I join issue with those Ministers who say that no social legislation in the world is equal to the Australian. From careful reading of changes that have taken place, I can say that the amounts paid to invalid, aged, and destitute people in Scandanavia, Canada, Great Britain, the United States of America, France, and Italy have been increased during the years of crisis. It is inaccurate for honorable members to say that because the unit of currency in other countries is not so high as it is in Australia, their pensions are not worth so much as is that paid in Australia. My information is obtained from the International Labour Office of the League of Nations, which I represent in Australia. 3557 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr Abbott - The pension in other (min tries is not comparable with that in A n;-i tralia. 3557 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - In proportion to thu standard of living it is relatively higher than the Australian pension. During the years that the pension has been reduced in Australia it has been raised in other countries. My real objection to the present proposals, however, is that, by conferring benefits on well-placed citizens, industry will not be revived to as great an extent as it would be if the amount involved in the proposed remissions were spent on works. In dealing with pensions, it is necessary to consider the happenings of the last year. By administrative act, dictated by Government policy, the value of pensions has been reduced in a hundred and one different ways. Only by coming in contact with the people can one learn what has happened. In thu aggregate, a greater amount was taken last year from pensioners by the Lyons Government than it is now proposed to restore. There is some hope for pensioners if in future, as the Assistant Treasurer says, an income of 12s. 6d. a week may be earned mid the pension remain at 17s. 6d. a week; but I desire to see it restored to £1 a week. 3557 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - That is true; but the position is no hotter than it was previously. 3557 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - I have already said that the money value of the pension will be restored to the position that it occupied when the Scullin Government left office, but that the scheme is totally different from what it then was, because of the property and other provisions that have since been enacted. I have come in contact with scores of applicants for invalid and old-age pensions who, on the grounds of character, length of residence in Australia, and lack of means of sup port, are unquestionably entitled to them, but because of separation from wives or husbands for 20 or 30 years have had their claims rejected. They are unaware of the whereabouts of the wife or the husband, as the case may be, and do not even know whether he or she is alive or dead, but they ave held to be disentitled to a pension because they cannot prove that* they have not refused to maintain each other. I am acquainted with the case of a highly respectable man who has travelled all over the mining areas of Victoria, having followed the occupation of a miner until he could no longer work. Thirtyseven years ago his wife declined to accompany him from one mining town to another, not because he and she were bad friends, but, because she did not care for the life. Time after time he offered to provide a home for her. At 67 years of age he applied for an old-age pension. On several occasions over a period of six or seven months I pressed his claim ; but the answer of the. department is that, because he cannot prove that he is legally separated from his wife, he is not entitled to the pension. Another case is that of an invalid who is being maintained by a small group of ladies attached to the Church of England in South Melbourne. He is completely crippled, yet cannot get a pension because he is unable to show that he did not refuse to maintain his wife. 3557 KFW 0 0 GUY, James Allan Mr Guy - That has always been the position. 3557 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - The administration has been tightened up until it has become ridiculous. It was never dreamt that consideration would be paid to circumstances extending as far back as 20 or 30 years. In many cases, elderly married couples apply for and are granted a pension, but because the old lady is paid the nominal amount of, say. 5s. a week for doing light work for a family with whom she has been associated for years, one half of the sum thus earned is credited to the husband as income, and the pension of both is reduced from 17s. 6d. to 15s. a week. If she refused to take the 5s., she would be charged with having made herself eligible for the full pension. 3557 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - She will receive the full pension in future. 3558 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - That amendment of the act was made last year, and by its means pensioners have been deprived of hundreds of pounds. I hope that before the bill is passed the Government will reconsider the provisions which make property a charge on the pension. Surely there is no justification for their continuance! Another alteration has been made which was never intended. A pensioner is supposed to have an income exemption of £50, and . to be entitled to the full pension until that figure is increased by a complete unit of £10. In some cases pensions have been reduced by such small amounts as 3d. and 6d. a week, because of interest received by pensioners on money in the bank. Although the small amount of interest earned has not increased the pensioner's slender capital by more than a few pounds, his pension has been, cut down by 3d. or 6d. a week. Surely that is a recent innovation! A pensioner aged SO years, who was drawing 17s. 6d. a week, was notified that his pension had been reduced to 17s. 3d. In some cases even smaller reductions have been made. An old man who had £50 in the bank, and whose interest 'had increased the amount to his credit to £56, had his pension brought down by 7-Jd. a week! Such treatment was not received by pensioners prior to the advent of the present Government. During last year, from £600,000 to £700,000 was saved by these cheeseparing methods, and money is to be handed 'back to taxpayers; but the Government does not intend to abolish the provision which gives it power to levyon the property of deceased pensioners. The reason advanced is that the cost would amount to £500,000. When the Opposition appealed to the Government not to force aged folk to surrender their pensions, I remember the Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Casey) saying that, if they voluntarily gave them up, it would be clear proof that thousands who were drawing pensions were not entitled to them. 3558 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - I do not remember saying that. 3558 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - The Assistant Treasurer certainly did say it. The fact that the Government attempts to justify its present attitude by saying tha.t the relief sought for pensioners would cost £500,000 or £600,000 a year shows that it believes that all those who voluntarily gave up their pensions would successfully re-apply for them if the lien on the property were eliminated. In that case, clear proof would be furnished that these people should not have been deprived of the pension at all. I give the Government credit for wishing to do the beat it can for the pensioners, and I hope that honorable members on this side will be able to convince the House that it would be unjust to grant relief from taxation to wealthy companies and individuals, or even to reduce the sales tax, until pension cuts have been restored to the rates ruling before the adoption of the Premiers plan. The administration of war pensions has been similarly tightened up. One of the worst cases that has come under my notice is that of an old lady, who was getting a small pension 'because of the loss of a son. My experience of the Repatriation Department is that it is always willing to do what is right in these matters ; and when it was pointed out that the lady's income was not sufficient for her maintenance, a slight increase of the pension was granted; but immediately the increased pension was paid a corresponding amount was deducted from her invalid pension. I have seen files in the office of the Repatriation Commission when I have made inquiries into shocking cases of hardship, and the officers have admitted to rae that they were ashamed of them. On one occasion I was asked to mention a certain matter in this House, and I did so. The mother of a deceased soldier waa receiving 19s. lid. a fortnight, and, because a questionnaire had been answered particularly conscientiously - she even stated that she sometimes visited her married daughters and obtained a meal and a night's lodging - the department assessed the assistance thus received iu food and shelter as equal to her pension, and the payment was stopped altogether. Harsh treatment such as that was not received by pensioners during the regime of the last Government. The legislation has been so tightened up in the last year or two that the pensioners are in' a most unenviable position, and- 1 hope that the Opposition will be able to induce the Government to modify the most objectionable provisions of the law. 3559 KIO Maranoa 0 0 HUNTER, James Mr HUNTER . - I intend to vote for the second reading of this bill, because I agree with all that it contains, and because when the measure reaches the committee stage an opportunity will be presented to consider its contents in detail. I shall oppose the amendment submitted by the Opposition, because, if accepted, it would result only in the withdrawal of the measure and would not achieve the objects desired by the Opposition. That would precipitate an election, and the people, after their recent experience of Labour administration, do not desire another Federal Labour Government. The bill does not contain all that I should like to see in it. The leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) has given notice of his intention to move for the elimination of certain provisions of the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act, and, in his absence, I propose to move it. Members of the Country party object to the department having a lien on the homes of pensioners. This provision was hurriedly passed last year, and was not fully considered by the Parliament. I recognize that the bill is urgent, in that it provides for a reduction of taxation; but I object to the newspaper talk about a political crisis. I am in a position to know the attitude of the Country party to the Government, and I arn not aware of a crisis having arisen over this legislation. 3559 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member must discuss the bill. 3559 KIO 0 0 HUNTER, James Mr HUNTER - The press should not have suggested that a private member had no right to make his personal position clear in connexion with any bill, and that the passage of all the legislation introduced by a government must be forced through. By a great majority members of all parties in the House are opposed to the Government taking over the homes of deceased pensioners for the purpose of recouping itself for payments made to them. If these payments are not pensions, but are merely loans, a definite statement should be made that loans are being advanced to the old people on the security of their homes. When an aged person has no means, the full pension is paid; but if the pensioner happens to have saved sufficient money to provide a home, the so-called pension becomes a mere loan. Having had experience of this provision, we should be satisfied that it is most undesirable. The press has made certain statements as to the cost of eliminating the lien on the pensioner's property, but any honorable member is entitled to challenge them. We may at least assume that if this provision is removed, the majority of those who voluntarily gave up their pensions when the provision was enforced will re-apply for them. The great bulk of them were afraid to take the pension under the conditions demanded. I have come in contact with a considerable number of these persons, and I have advised them, to apply again for the pension. I have told them that they were foolish to relinquish their pensions because the property provision in the act had not been properly considered by Parliament, and that no government would dare to put up for sale any properties taken over under the act. In one case, a woman, on the death of her. husband, bought a house, and, ar the time, her children were just starting work. The .house was purchased through a building society, the period of purchase being twenty years. No one can honestly say that that woman owns that house. Her children are now men, two of whom are married, the remaining three being single. None of them has done a stroke of work for two or three years, except casual work such as droving. No one can say that when this woman dies the home belongs to her estate or that she has been receiving a pension wrongly, and therefore the Government should regard the home as its security. 3559 KEV 0 0 FENTON, James Mr Fenton - That home would be safe for the children. 3559 KIO 0 0 HUNTER, James Mr HUNTER - It would not. I have a similar case in which the children were girls. One is now a school teacher, another a waitress, and the other an office girl. I wrote repeatedly to the department in connexion with this case, and the only answer that I received was to the effect that application should be made after the death of the pensioner. No exemption has been granted in either of those cases, or, in fact, in any case I have handled. Another case is that of an old mau 74 years of age whom I have known for many years. He told me that hu had given up his pension ; that he did not want it under the conditions upon which it was available to him, and that he would trust to luck to get a living, lie had a two-roomed house situated on an acre of land which previously had been overrun with prickly pear. The value of the allotment was £1, and of the house from £50 to £60. He told me that he was carrying out repairs to a shop, and he invited me to see his wife. I accepted his invitation . and found that his wife, who was 72 years of age, was washing out the shop. They both said that they did not want the pension if the Government begrudged giving it to. them. The house, which is a lean-to of two rooms and kitchen, is their home, and they take a pride in it. Another case is that of two old people who had a property near a town. It was valued by the municipal authority at £80. They have a son who is out. of work. The son offered the old people £60 for the property, because he thought that by putting a couple of cows on it he could probably earn a living. When permission was sought from the department to bring about the sale, it was refused, because the department considered that the house and land were its security against the pension. The act makes no allowance for sentiment or the fact that children were born and lived in the home. It treats all pensioners' homes as pieces . of government security. Although the ownership by a pensioner of cash or a bond affects his pension,- he is ' allowed to do what he likes with it. It is not treated by the department as security. While, in some instances, the homes have been built by the pensioners themselves, in most instances, they have been built by the children. Most honorable members have sprung from poor parents. At any rate I have, and I can look back to my old home in South Brisbane. My parents are dead, but that home has a sentimental value, and will not be sold while I am alive. I assume that other people have the same love and sentiment for the homes in which they were reared. When I was young, the wages of my father, my brothers, and myself were pooled for its purchase. It is impossible for any work- man on the basic wage, particularly if he has a family to keep, to acquire his own home unless the wages of his children are pooled. If the children are able to keep the parents they should do so. My parents did not receive a pension, nor did they need it. My brothers and I were lucky in that we could afford to assist them; but others have not been so fortunate. This property provision should be repealed, and I have no doubt that a full discussion will disclose the fact that most honorable members are not in favour of it. I hope that the Government will give some consideration to the various suggestions that are placed before it. There is some reference in the bill to the cost of living index figures. The cost of living of pensioners is considerably higher in the outback districts such as Charleville and Roma than in Brisbane, yet the maximum pension is the same in the country and city. 'A person who has spent ail his life in a country town does not wish, when he grows old, to live in the city among Strangers. He prefers to live among the people whom he knows, and usually builds for himself a hut on a reserve or river bank, or a little house in the nearest township. I wish to know whether this reference to index figures will enable the department, when fixing pensions, to take into consideration the higher cost of living in country areas. 3560 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - The reference relates only to the capital cities. 3560 KIO 0 0 HUNTER, James Mr HUNTER - -In that case the country people will be in the same position as before. This is a new provision, and is a distinct advantage, because previously the act contained no reference at all to index figures. I am opposed to the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde). I hope that in the committee stage honorable members will be given full opportunity to discuss the bill in detail. 3560 KRD Ballaarat 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr MCGRATH . - I quite agree with the proposal to "repeal the property provisions of .the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act; but I am much surprised to find the Opposition taking an active part in the agitation to restore pensions to people over whose property the Commonwealth is empowered to take a lien for the repayment of the pension at the death of the owners. The members of the Opposition, with the exception of the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin), to whom my remarks do not refer, must have very short memories. They should be ashamed of themselves, and should be the last people on earth to complain of the deductions from pensions in respect of homes. In a bill which the Scullin Government introduced but later withdrew, because the then Opposition would not support it, provision was made under clause 31 to penalize living pensioners, whereas the only complaint against this Government is that it penalizes the dead. 3561 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The honorable member supported that legislation. 3561 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - I did not, because no vote was taken upon it. Clause 31 provided that the value of a home above £500 should be treated as capital, and accordingly, with respect to a home valued at £700 the pension would be reduced by £20 a year, and in respect of a home valued at £900, the pensioner would receive a payment of £5 10s. a year. The best time to tax people is at their death. I admit that the property provision is cruel in its operation, and I am anxious that it should be repealed, but on no occasion did I vote to penalize living pensioners in. the way in which the members of the Scullin Government did. 3561 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The honorable member voted in favour of the proposals of that Government. 3561 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - At the time I was chairman of committees, and did not discuss the bill or record a vote upon it; but I did vote with this Government to penalize pensioners at their death. Clause 31 of the original bill provided for a reduction of pension in the case of homes exceeding a value of £500. 3561 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - I did not vote for that provision. 3561 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - I am not sure that the honorable member was not a member of the Ministry at that time. 3561 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - I was not. 3561 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - Then the honorable member must have been appointed to the Ministry a week or so afterwards. There is no doubt that the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr.Forde), who moved the amendment, was at that time a member of the Government which proposed to tax the living by reducing pensions if the applicants owned property valued at more than £500. Those who put forward that proposal ought to hang their heads in shame. Perhaps they thought it would be all forgotten by now, but the record is there for all to read. 3561 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must connect his remarks with the bill. The recorded attitude of the honorable member for Capricornia to previous legislation is not now before the House. 3561 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - When the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin), as Prime Minister at that time, introduced his pensions amendmentbill, he feared that, owing to the grave condition of the country's finances, the pensioners would not be able to get even 12s. a week. When the Lyons Government came into office, the financial position, though a little better, was still bad. The outlook to-day is much brighter, and I trust that the old pensioners' homes will be handed back to them. I do not believe that the Government will benefit one penny by this legislation, because it will not dare to sell the homes. Neither should sons and daughters, who have done their duty by their parents, be dispossessed of any property that should rightly come to them. Of course, it is not right that well-to-do sons or daughters of old-age pensioners should inherit the property of their parents. It is to their everlasting shame that their parents are compelled to draw the pension. But the act does not require sons and daughters to contribute too much in support of their parents. A single man earning £207 is asked to contribute only £1 a year, and, in the case ofmarried sons, a contribution is expected only when the income is over £300 a year. Many old people have a strong sentimental attachment to their homes, and refuse to sign the white card giving the pensions department rights over their property. In Ballarat alone, I know of at least twenty couples that are suffering from semi-starvation to-day because they refuse to sign the cards, and are, therefore, unable to draw pensions. It is not that the home may be worth much, but whatever its value, it may represent the savings of a lifetime. This aspect of the matter affects other places even more than Ballarat. In my electorate, a great many homes are built on land held on miners' right title, and the Commonwealth Government cannot touch such land during the life of the occupant. The areas are held on a year-to-year lease, and are not real property in the terms of the pensions act. However, unless the occupant transfers the property during his lifetime, the Commonwealth Government may, at his death, claim it under the act. I have been telling all the pensioners in my electorate to transfer their miner's right titles to their sons or daughters, so that these may enjoy the property upon the death of the pensioners. The property qualifications are bearing heavily on thousands of people., Since last October, I have received thousands of letters, and have been interviewed by hundreds of people on {his subject. I know of daughters who have given up the hope of marriage in order to stay with their parents. They have contributed to the support of the parents, and to the maintenance of the home; but, because they can produce no receipts for actual - payments they have made, they cannot establish any title to the property. The same applies to sons who have helped their parents. They may have paid rates and other charges on property, but no decent son, in such circumstances, would have the receipts made out in his own name. This legislation is sure to be repealed sooner- or later. For the present, we may fix the value of the property at £400 or £500 below which no claim will be made against it, but the next government, or the one after that, -will eventually restore their homes to the old people. Those administering the act have not, so far, had the courage to sell a single property. 3562 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - I know of one case in which a property was sold, because I helped to sell it through the Commissioner. 3562 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - As a general rule, the Commissioner is not anxious to sell such properties. There would be no objection to the Commonwealth taking possession of property if the pensioner, upon death, leaves no relatives. I know of one casev in which the pensioner refused to sign the white card, although she had no near relatives living in Aus.. tralia. I urged her to sign, but she declared that, she intended to keep her property so that she might bequeath it to her niece in Ireland. I told her that if her niece wanted the property, she should be prepared to pay the pension which the Commonwealth was now providing. We are under no obligation to protect people who do not live in Australia, and pay no taxes here. I have pleaded Avith the pensioners to sign, the card, and thus have their pensions restored, because I know that the act will eventually be amended. In many instances, however, they have refused to sign, and are in actual want. They will not give up their right to their property. I trust that the Government will deal equitably with these people. Honorable members opposite should be the last people in the world to attack this Government for its treatment of pensioners. The honorable member for Capricornia, for instance, was partly responsible for the introduction of the first bill that interfered with the rights of pensioners. 3562 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - The Lang party 'had nothing to do with it. 3562 KRD 0 0 MCGRATH, David Mr McGRATH - At the moment I am speaking of the Scullin Government generally, and of the honorable member for Capricornia particularly. That honorable gentleman sanctioned the provisions of the 1931 bill before the measure reached this chamber. One provision of that measure was to the effect that, a person owning a home of the value of £900 should suffer a reduction of pension of £40 a year. He would receive only £5 10s. a year. If the counter proposal made by honorable members now sitting on this side of the chamber had been agreed to, such people would have obtained a pension of £45 10s. a year. Honorable gentlemen opposite were prepared to starve people; honorable members of my party desired that they should have the full pension while they lived. It is useless for honorable gentlemen opposite to pose as the friends of the poor and the down-trodden, for they actually treated as outcasts and pariahs certain pensioners who owned property. The Scullin Government must accept responsibility for the provisions of the financial emergency measure which, it introduced. Let honorable gentlemen opposite remember the part that they took on that occasion, and cease criticizing the policy of this Government. I am ashamed that the honorable member for Capricornia should have had the audacity to submit to the Government the proposal contained in his amendment. 3563 KJQ Hunter 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES . - Honorable members sitting in this corner of the chamber have been interested to hear the death-bed repentance of the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) who supported both the Scullin Government and the present Government in their attacks upon the pensioners of Australia. Honorable members of my party declined to vote for any reduction of the standard of living in Australia, and were particularly opposed to the action of the Scullin Government in reducing payments to pensioners. It is of little use for the honorable member for Ballarat, and other honorable gentlemen sitting opposite, to pose now as the friends of 'the pensioners. These honorable gentlemen have been led to see the error of their ways by the pressure brought to bear upon them by pensioners in their own electorates. Strong pensioners' organizations have been established in the electorate of the honorable member for Ballarat; and in many other electorates, and honorable gentlemen opposite are concerned now, not for the welfare of- the pensioners, but for their own political hides. They want to save their skins at the next election. The honorable member for Ballarat has said that he did not support the Scullin Government's proposal in regard to the reduction of pensions, but we remember that he was Chairman of Committees when the Scullin Government's Financial Emergency Bill was under discussion, and so played "quite a large part in its passage through this chamber. The Scullin Government paid the price of its attack upon pensioners and others - it was annihilated at the last election. History will undoubtedly repeat itself, for this Government will be annihilated when it next faces the people. The general public of Australia will not tolerate attacks upon aged and infirm citizens. A government will come into office which will not only restore the pension to the former rate of £1 a week,, but will also remove from the statute-book the iniquitous provision relating to the attachment of pensioners' property. The honorable member for Ballarat said that the Government had no intention of taking the property of 'pensioners; but last week the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) was informed, in answer to a question, that of the amounts that had been levied upon the estates of pensioners, the Government had made claims foi- £34,299 and had received £9,802 in respect of pension payments. It is clear, therefore, that the policy of attaching the properties of deceased pensioners is to be implemented. The Government's actions in this respect have been grossly unfair. It will be remembered that last year a committee of honorable members opposite, consisting of the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn), the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane), the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Dein), the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath), and the honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. Jennings), was set up by the Government to consider amendments of our pensions legislation, and recommended among other things, that the property of deceased pensioners, valued at less than £500, should not be attached. That recommendation was published in the press. Subsequently many persons who had surrendered their pensions through fear of the attachment of their property after their decease, applied for the restoration of the pension. I frankly admit that. I advised certain pensioners to do so, for I fully expected the Government to adopt the recommendation of its own committee. Unhappily, that was not the case. Instead of removing the objectionable property provisions of the pensions law, the Government is actually, in clause 52i,, on page 43 of this bill, proposing to tighten them up. It is undeniable that claims have been made on. the property of deceased invalid and old-age pensioners, and that all such pensioners are required to enter into an agreement for the attachment of their property. Yet certain highly-paid people in this country - I refer to the judges and certain public servants - are not required to enter into an agreement for attachment of their property to recoup the Government for amounts paid in pensions. I realize, of course, that public servants contribute to a pensions fund, but the Government subsidizes their contributions. These people are not required to reimburse the Government for its subsidies. This measure is called a Financial Relief Bill; it should be called a Big Financiers' Rebate Bill. Benefits to the value of £7,490,000 are being provided for certain wealthy interests in this country which, under existing circumstances, should not be benefited. Many people who are not in distressed circumstances will be granted relief, while other individuals who are without proper food, clothing and shelter are to continue to be penalized. The Government is showing an utter disregard for the unfortunate unemployed people of this country, who are being evicted by private landlords. I know that there are some humane landlords, and I do not begrudge these a certain measure of relief. But I do object to the proposal to remit taxation to the amount of £1,100,000 to the wealthy property-owners of Australia, while the unemployed people and the pensioners remain under their present disabilities. In my opinion, any relief granted to landlords should be in the nature of a rent allowance to owners of properties Occupied by the unemployed. Some small property-owners are quite as badly off as the unemployed. People who are entirely dependent for their livelihood upon the .income from properties, but obtain nothing -from this source, are in great distress, for they have to pay the rates and taxes on such properties, which thereby become a liability and not an asset. If such people own property of a certain value apart from the house in which they live they are not eligible for the old-age or invalid pension, and possibly not entitled to obtain food relief. Their plight is therefore, serious, and the Government should give them relief by way of a rent allowance. A considerable agitation has been caused throughout New South Wales for the payment of such an allowance. The Government's proposal to remit £1,100,000 of taxation upon income derived from property would not be so* objectionable had consideration been given to those whom I have just mentioned. Considerable remissions are alsoproposed to persons upon whom additional, taxation was not imposed in attempting to balance the budget as provided for in the Premiers plan. I submit, however,, that, before that is done, full restoration should he made to those who had to suffer the hardships imposed under our financial emergency legislation. The following remissions of direct taxation are proposed: - Income tax on companies, £585,000; tax payable by assurance companies, £710,000; tax payable upon income from property, £1,100,000 ; land tax,. £400,000- in addition to the £700,000 granted in November last; taxation of shipping owned overseas, £25,000; and income tax on income derived from personal exertion, £200,000. The total is £3,020,000. Remissions of indirect taxation amounting to £4,300,000 are also proposed, and in , this respect a marked distinction is shown between two classes in the community. Those who drink the popular amber fluid known as beer are not treated on the same liberal basis as those who are fortunate enough to be able to purchase spirituous liquors. The workers who consume beer are not to obtain the same concessions' as those who can afford to purchase whisky, brandy, gin and other spirits. If the Government were anxious to afford relief to the consumers of ales and spirits, a similar reduction should have been made in each case. Many working men take a glass of beer because they feel it is of benefit to them. The reduction of the excise duty on ale is 3d. a gallon, and the customs duty has been reduced by 3d. a gallon; the excise duty on whisky, brandy and gin has been reduced by 2s. a gallon and the customs duty by 5s. a gallon; yet whereas the remissions on spirits are expected to amount to £150,000, it is anticipated that the revenue loss on beer Will total £200,000. The natural, explanation is that for every consumer of spirits there are 50 beer drinkers, and I, therefore, claim that those who consume beer should be entitled to a benefit similar to that to be conferred upon the wealthier section of the community, those who can afford to pay for the more expensive liquors. Sales taxation is also to be reduced by £4,380,000. I should like to know whether mining machinery includes handboring machines, picks, shovels, mauls, drills, boots, and all other tools of trade, and if these are to be exempt from sales tax? 3565 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - Does the honorable member suggest that boots are tools of trade? 3565 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - In coal-mines, water destroys the nails in ordinary boots, and if boots of a particular type cannot be procured at a reasonable price, the men engaged in coal-mining are at a great disadvantage. It is also proposed to exempt from the sales tax certain engines used in agricultural pursuits, and I should like to know whether the engines installed in motor launches engaged in fishing, and also the nets, ropes and other equipment used by fishermen will be exempt. The Government proposes to amend the Invalid, and Old-age Pensions Act. It is a pity it has not gone further and restored the weekly pension rate to 20s. It should eliminate not only the iniquitous confiscatory property sections, but also all the reductions imposed, such as assessing as income food and lodging given by a son or daughter to a father, mother, or by one member of a family to another. Up to June of this year the Government assessed this assistance as income, and if it, wishes to do justice to the pensioners it should repeal that provision of the act. It is most unfair to treat as income any amount in excess of 20s. a week paid by children who board at home, and to reduce the pension accordingly. It is iniquitous to force the sons or daughters of pensioners who may be in receipt of an income of £6 a week to contribute 12s. 6d. a week towards the support of their parents. I know of a case where the department has assessed a man with an income of £6 or £7 a week, and with a family to support, to contribute 12s. 6d. weekly towards the maintenance of his parents, who are pensioners. Further, it is unjust to assess as income interest upon an amount which a pensioner may have placed aside to meet burial expenses. I know of a woman in Weston who had £30 in the bank to cover her burial expenses. The department assessed her income from that, deposit at 2fd. a week, by which amount her pension was reduced. In view of these facts, it is difficult to believe that the department is giving sympathetic consideration to pensioners. When the department assumes that a new applicant for a pension has earned money, the pension paid is only 15s. a week. It is not entitled to assume the income of a pensioner, and should be guided only by specific income. Considerable inconvenience is caused to pensioners who hold a life interest in a property. I know of cases where a son has given his father a life interest in a property, and on whose death the property reverts to some one else. But, because the property is valued at over £50, the pension is reduced by £1 a year for every £10 by which the £50 is exceeded. In some instances house properties are empty, or are occupied by unemployed persons who cannot pay rent. In other instances the property consists of a (block of land from which no revenue is obtained. The department should discontinue assessing properties held by pensioners which do not produce revenue. As taxation to the extent of £1,100,000 is to be remitted in the cases of persons owning revenue-producing properties, it is reasonable to suggest that those owning nonreven(reproducing properties, which in many cases are valued by shire and municipal councils in excess of their .market value, should also be exempt. I trust that the Government will give consideration to these points. 3565 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - Action should have been taken years ago. 3565 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - We are now being forced to take action because of the harsh and unsympathetic manner in which the act is being administered. This Government is not responsible for all the anomalies which the act contains. The pensions department has also assessed the benefits received from friendly societies. A pensioner who was in receipt of 5s. a week from a friendly society found that his pension was reduced by 2s. 6d. a week. That practice, I am glad to say, has now been discontinued. 3565 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - That action was taken a Iona time ago. 3566 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - It was not taken more than three months ago. In other directions, the Government has taken retrospective action in regard to the restoration of pensions, but it has not done so in these cases. In order to be consistent, it should take prompt action to restore their full pension to these people retrospectively, because the original act provided that such income was exempt from assessment against a pension. 3566 JUD 0 0 DEIN, Adam Mr Dein - I know of many instances in which refunds have been made. 3566 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - It would appear that the honorable member and his friends have been specially favoured. The principle of retrospective payments does not apply all round. A government which makes remissions of taxes to the wealthy sections of the community should restore to the aged and infirm in our midst' the 2s. 6d. a week taken from them The department has been quick to reduce pensions, but it has been as slow as a snail in restoring them. I know of a number of invalid pensioners whose pensions have been cancelled suddenly after they had continued, in some cases, for as long as ten years. The reason given for the discontinuance was that the recipients were capable of undertaking light duties. At the present time, when many men and women in full possession of their health and strength find it impossible to secure employment, what chance have medically unfit persons of finding work? No one will employ them. Employers are looking for the strongest slaves they can find; they will not give work to persons who are incapacitated. The explanation given by the department for cancelling pensions is merely an excuse for securing revenue for the Government at the expense of these unfortunate people. Previously, it was not difficult for a woman who had resided less than twenty years in Australia to obtain an invalid pension, if the state of her health justified it, provided she had resided in and earned her living in this country for five years; but the position is different to-day. Recently, a woman at Cessnock, who, for many years, had kept house for a family of sons and daughters, received an injury, and applied for an invalid pension, only to have her claim rejected on the ground that she was 60 years of age when she arrived in Australia. That is harsh treatment. Prom time to time, we hear a great deal about the bonds of empire, yet this woman, who came to Australia from another part of the Empire, is treated in this shameful way. The present English and Australian pensions laws sometimes have the effect of separating members of a family from one another, or of forcing sons and daughters to incur heavy expense in visiting the Old Country to visit their aged paren ts. It should not be difficult to make reciprocal arrangements whereby persons who are eligible to receive pensions in one part of the Empire may have the pension paid to them in any other part of the Empire to which they may go with their children. That system is in operation in connexion with war pensions, and I see no reason why it should not apply to other pensions as well. The authorities in Australia do not hesitate to pay the pension of an Imperial soldier who has come to this country, and it is time that other pensions were placed on the same footing. Honorable members must be aware of the great hardship inflicted upon young working-class people who emigrate to this country leaving their aged parents alone in England with little hope of seeing them again. If reciprocal arrangements, such as I have indicated, could be made, it would be possible for these families to be reunited. Before he left for New Guinea the Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Marr) said that the Repatriation Department would make up to a pensioner the amount deducted from his pension by reason of his being in possession of a war pension. An Imperial war pension is paid to the parents of sons who enlisted in the Imperial Army, or were reservists when the war broke out, and were killed in action. Why should not a privilege granted to an Australian pensioner under the Repatriation Act apply also to an' old-age pensioner in receipt of an Imperial war pension? A sum greater than 5s. a week should be paid to pensioners while they are in hospitals receiving treatment. At such times they need more nourishing food than many hospitals can afford to give them. In many cases such food is brought to them by relatives, but others not so fortunate have to go without it merely because they are poor. The rates and taxes payable by pensioners on their property have to be paid even though the owners are in a hospital, and surely these owners are entitled to a sum sufficient to meet their needs while in these institutions. The legislation passed last year in relation to the property of pensioners is having a serious effect on the revenue of local governing bodies. In my electorate 85 per cent. of the pensioners own their own homes, but the local governing authorities say that the owners will not any longer pay the rates and taxes or insurance premiums on such properties, because ultimately the securities will revert to the Federal Government. The following letter from the Council of the Shire of Kearsley sets out the position : - Dear Sir, Re (Commonwealth) Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act - Recovery of Local Government rates due by pensioners. Council has considerable rates and fees due to it in respect of property owned by old-age pensioner ratepayers, and is experiencing considerable difficulty in recovery. These ratepayers in a number of cases are in impoverished circumstances, and it isan utter impossibility for them to pay rates for services rendered by council, as, in some instances, their pension allowance is so small. Council is informed that the pension allowance is regulated by the value of the property, which, in some cases, is non-revenue producing and would not realize the value as imposed by the ValuerGeneral if put up for sale and a purchaser could be found. The pensioner now takes the stand that the rates can accumulateon the property, as the Com mon wealth Government is virtually the owner. Under the existing law the council has no claim against the Commonwealth Government in the matter. The council considers that it is unfair that it should have to carry thu burden of meeting the cost of sanitary, garbage, and other services rendered to these properties. If the Commonwealth Government creates this impossible position for councils and pensioners then it is considered that some provision should be made for the relief of councils. It is therefore requested that you might be good enough to make representations to the Minister urging that relief in some direction should be afforded to councils in this matter. I hope that the Government will give consideration to the suggestion contained in that letter, and also to the case of invalid pensioners who are maintained by their parents. The Government boasts that the financial year just closed showed a sur plus ; but it does not say anything of the hardships inflicted on the aged and infirm, which made that surplus possible. The Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) smiles, but I have spoken only what is true. Many of the old people in our midst have been worried to death by the proposal to take their property from them. Those who are still with us are determined to carry on the fight against the Government, which has been responsible for their sufferings, with the object of overthrowing it and replacing it by a government that will not only restore the pension to the full amount, but also remove from the statute-book the iniquitous confiscatory sections of the act introduced by the present Government. Sitting suspended from 6.14 to 8 p.m. 3567 JPV Darling 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY .- I support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), which seeks to have the bill withdrawn and reconstructed, so that further restorations may be made to pensioners and civil servants with a view to placing them on their pre-depression basis. The billhas been described in various ways by its friends and supporters, always with the same shade of meaning. Some have termed it an "omnibus" bill, others a " comprehensive " measure, and still others have claimed that it is " all-embracing" legislation. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) declared that he had presented a restoration budget, and other honorable members have euphoniously called it a prosperity budget. Honorable members who are not quite so friendly to the Government have given to the budget names which can be classed as unparliamentary, and, therefore, I shall not repeat them in this chamber. I may say that I have heard the description, "Bankers', brewers' and companies' bill and budget." When dealing with the grossly classconscious bias which is apparent in the bill and budget, honorable members on this side have pointed out that both flagrantly favour the rich man. The Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) hotly denied the imputation, and declared that the Government is quite free and untrammelled, and that this bill and the budget embody the policy of the Government only. To-day the Assistant Treasurer (Mr. Casey) denied, though not quite so hotly, charges which have been made and proved against the Government, that the bill is devoted to the interests of the wealthy, and is distinctly hostile to the less fortunate sections of the community. Whether the wealthy have had anything to do with the framing of the budget or the bill, the influence of that class is obvious in each. Practically every page of the bill concedes a generous gift to the rich, a small portion being set aside to make niggardly contributions to invalid and old-age pensioners and civil servants. While the wealthy of Australia receive largess to the amount of £7,000,000 in the form of taxation remissions, 900 men in the Postmaster-General's Department are still paid less than the basic wage, and hundreds of thousands of invalid and old-age pensioners are still to be denied a complete restoration of pension reductions. Even a cursory examination of the bill proves conclusively that the rich influences which control the Cabinet and the Government have ensured that this class-biased legislation is in their favour. Fortunate company owners are to receive £585,000 through the reduction of company taxation; life assurance companies are to benefit to the extent of £710,000; property-owners will obtain an advantage of £1,100,000, as a result of the reduction of the special tax on income from property; the reduction of the personal exertion " rate by 15 per cent, confers an advantage on those concerned of £200,000, whilst the overseas shipping companies are to receive a gift of £25,000. Then a fine gesture is made by handing out £400,000 to wealthy land-owners who, last year, received a benefit of £700,000. This section of the community has had its taxation halved, and there is not a member of it who is not comparatively well off to-day. I admit that, temporarily, some properties are not producing great profits, but obviously the value must be in the land if this tax is paid. Throughout the bill there is apparent the sinister influence which works to the advantage of the wealthy and against the interests of the unemployed, pensioners, and civil servants. Preferen- tial treatment is given to bankers, brewers, large property owners and everybody who has wealth and vested interests in the country. The Bailleau group, which is "in" beer, banks and newspapers, which recently invested in aerial companies, and which controls the press of Western Australia and South Australia, has a morning and evening paper in Melbourne and a grip on the press in Queensland, and even exerts a powerful influence in New Solth Wales, has made its power felt by the Government. Some day the history and ramifications of that group will be given in this House. It is said that the Melbourne Herald created the Government. We do know that an important unit in the Bailleau group was knighted and is now Sir Keith Murdoch. Was that a quid proquo 3568 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - I rise to a point of order. I suggest that the charge that a financial group is exerting a sinister influence on the Federal Ministry is an offensive reflection and, as it is entirely untrue, I ask that it be withdrawn. 3568 10000 0 0 MACKAY, George Mr SPEAKER (Hon 6 H Mackay - Does the honorable member regard the statement as being personally offensive? 3568 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - I regard it as an offensive reflection upon the Ministry as a whole. 3568 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have closely followed the speech of the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley), and, while he has certainly expressed his opinions in strong language, I cannot say that he has contravened the standing orders by speaking offensively. He is guilty, however, of devoting his speech principally to the budget, and I. ask him to proceed to deal with the bill before the House. 3568 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - When the Assistant Treasurer was making his defence of the bill and those features of the budget which it implements, he stated that 75 per cent of the taxpayers who are to be relieved by reductions of company taxation amounting to £585,000 are in receipt of small taxable incomes of from £1 to £300. Knowingly or otherwise, the honorable gentleman failed to complete his story by telling us the amount which is contributed by that 75 per cent, of taxpayers, and the taxation that is paid by the remaining 25 per cent, who, obviously, are a little better off than the other section. I suggest that the next Government supporter who speaks should rectify the omission and supply details. I venture the opinion that it will be found that 75 per cent, of the total tax collected is paid by the 25 per cent, of taxpayers. 3569 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - It will be found that the 25 per cent, pays 90 per cent, of the amount that is assessed. 3569 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - Last year the Government made further reductions in the amount paid to pensioners and introduced iniquitous legislation which was directed at a very poor but most deserving section of the community. However, that did not prevent it from making tax remissions which benefited rich land-owners and others to the amount of £2,100,000 which included £400,000 to the land-holders. Now this class-biased Father Christmas government is handing out a further £700,000 as largess to the wealthy landholders, making a total concession to this class of £1,100,000 in two years. Even taking into account the reductions of sales tax, which after all will be to the advantage of the rich much more than the poor, the benefits conferred by the Government are overwhelmingly in favour of the wealthy, who were not called upon to make a proportionate sacrifice to assist the country in its time of need. Paltry restorations are to be made to those who bore the burden: to invalid and old-age pensioners the Government proposes, belatedly and with illgrace, the restitution of £635,000.War pensioners are to have returned to them £248,000, and public servants £550,000, but we should not forget that 900 adults in the Public Service are being paid amounts below the basic wage. 3569 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr Perkins - Who withheld the basic wage from them ? 3569 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - During the Scullin Government's regime, every employee of the Public Service who was entitled to the basic wage received it. It was left to this Government to make wage cuts in the Public Service, particularly in respect of men on the basic wage. 3569 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON - How many men did the Scullin Government dismiss from the Postal Department? 3569 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - The Bruce-Page Administration threatened to dismiss 4,000, but, notwithstanding the tremendous difficulties confronting it, the Scullin Government retained their services. The total budget benefit to invalid, old-age and war pensioners, to public servants and the superannuation fund, is £1,513,000, as against £7,450,000 relief, in the form of remissions of taxation, to the richer section of the community. Yet Government supporters protest against any suggestion from this side that the wealthy interests in this country used their influence in the preparation of this so-called prosperity budget. Take, for example, the Government's proposal with regard to land taxation. We have been told over and over again that remissions in land tax have been made for the purpose of assisting the man on the land. Those who have any knowledge of its incidence are well aware that the man on the land, will get no material advantage from this concession, which is intended specially to benefit city land-owners as a reward for party support. A farming or grazing property with an unimproved value of £5,000, and an improved value of £8,000, is not liable to pay federal land tax. A property having an unimproved value of £20,000, and with improvements valued at £8,000, is taxable on a value of £15,000, and, under the graduated scale, pays only £24. 3569 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr Abbott - What would be the income from snch a property during the last four years? 3569 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - The honorable member, whose interjection is made purely for political purposes, knows very well that under sympathetic administration by fair-minded officials, the owners of property returning little or no income have really nothing to fear. Under the hardship provisions of the act, if a land-owner is able to prove that, due to low prices for his products, or other causes, his income has so seriously declined as to place him in difficulties, he is not required to pay any tax. Under this legislation the owner of a property valued at £100,000 gets relief to the amount of £1,000, to which must be added £500 remitted last year. But, as all honorable members are aware, the majority of properties valued at £100,000 or more are to be found, not in country districts, but in the cities. This concession is a very nice Christmas gift to city landowners, and will, no doubt, be much appreciated by the Bailleaus, with their huge buildings and interests in financial institutions, by the big emporiums such as Anthony Horderns and David Jones in Sydney; Myers in Melbourne, and the owners of the many chain stores in the cities and country districts. All these people, I repeat, will benefit most from the passage of this legislation. Pensioners, public servants and wage-earners will gain to only a limited degree. The Government proposes to restore to invalid and old-age pensioners 2s. 6d. a week provided the maximum pension does not exceed 17s. 6d. a week. This will raise the limit of a pensioner's income up to 30s. a week, but it will benefit only 38 per cent, of pensioners. We should also bear in mind that, while the Government is handing back to them £635,000, a considerable proportion of this amount has been taken from ex-pensioners, because Ministers and their supporters point proudly to the fact that due to their Government's " sympathetic " administration and " generous " treatment of pensioners, no fewer than 13,200 persons have relinquished their pensions. Yet this Government would have us believe that the concession now being given to this very deserving section of our people is in the nature of a' generous gesture, whereas, as I have shown, the Government is simply taking the pension from certain persons and giving it to others. Like many other honorable members, including Government supporters, I have received, during the last twelve months, many letters from pensioners and their relatives regarding the administration of the property provisions in the act. One which reached me to-day relates to the position of a blind lady who is living in a home built for her by her children. The majority of aged people like to be quite independent of their children, and although the latter may have helped or wholly provided the home for their parents, they have handed the deeds of the property to the father or mother or to both parents. In this particular case the home is valued at £200, and because the old lady refused to sign the card, giving the Government authority to claim against the property, her pension was stopped and a demand made for the return of all money paid to her from October, 1932. The son and daughter have written to me asking whether it is not possible to get relief from the demand made by the Government against the property. As the son is out of work, there is no family income, so there is not the slightest possibility of the family being able to repay money which was loaned to them by the Government in the guise of a pension for this blind woman. The second case is that of an aged lady who has been ill for many years and is dependent on a war pension of £1 a week in respect of her sou who was killed at the war. She is also receiving an invalid pension of 7s. 6d. a week. Before going to the war, the son endured great hardships in order to provide a home for his mother. He obtained the timber, in payment for which he gave his labour, then built the house himself, living at that time, so I am informed principally on potatoes and salt. During the war he enlisted, went overseas and was killed. His mother has been asked to sign the usual card, but is too ill to do so, and the Government is now demanding that she shall repay £15 paid to her in the form of pension, threatening to take legal proceedings against her if she fails to comply with the order. Every honorable member who voted for those objectionable provisions in the act is responsible, equally with the Government which is administering them, for this iniquity. I could, if necessary, speak at great length of a number of similar cases which have come to my notice. This form of legislation is repugnant to Australian sentiment. Smacks pf the middle ages in Europe, rather than this year of grace in democratic Australia. It is to be hoped that the Government, even at this late hour, will repeal the whole of those sections in the act relating to property qualifications, and, if necessary, make some deduction from the rich, who, in this budget, are having so much largess thrown to them, without having made any sacrifices comparable with those made by the unemployed, pensioners and public servants. Prior to the adjournment, the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) made certain charges against honorable members on this side whom he termed the " loud-mouthed Opposition ". That is a favorite expression of the honorable member. During the period that he was a militant unit of the Australian Labour movement, he wrote a letter in which he said that he would not be found dead in the same paddock as the "loud-mouthed Australian Women's National League." Yet he now assiduously cultivates that organization, and appears happy to be found alive in the same paddock as its members. The honorable member charged "the loud-mouthed Opposition" with having proposed, by clause 31 of the original Financial Emergency Bill, the provision that, the pension should be reduced at the rate of £1 for every £10, by which the value of the property of a pensioner exceeded £500. The honorable member " spread " himself on that provision, and - if I may say so as one honorable member to another - made a fairly good job of it; but only because he did not relate the whole of the story. It may surprise him - it certainly will surprise those who arc not aware of - the fact - to learn that on the motion for its second reading, he voted for the bill which contained that clause, and did not make any comment upon it. As is known that provision was excluded from the bill. Introducing this measure, the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) prophesied that business men and others who benefited from this year's "prosperity and restoration budget," and the legislation consequent upon it, would most certainly act fairly by distributing its benefits throughout the country." The right honorable gentleman proudly mentioned that the Australian Mutual Provident Society had publicly announced its intention to reduce interest rates from 5$ per cent, to 4<£ per cent, in the case of private borrowers, and from 5 per cent, to 4$ per cent, in the case of public bodies. It may he pertinent to inquire what are the intentions of other friends of the Government whom it has treated most generously. They are maintaining a silence so profound that it. cannot be .pierced. With two exceptions - the Australian Mutual Provident Society and one of the hanks - little or no comment, and certainly no offer, has been made. This House was informed that relief would be afforded in respect of tea. I am advised that the most likely happening is an increase of the price of that commodity. The lowering of the customs duties on rubber, it was said, would result in the price of rubber goods being reduced, but so far there is no noticeable change. 3571 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - The bill has not yet been passed. 3571 JPV 0 0 BLAKELEY, Arthur Mr BLAKELEY - No one expected reductions to have been made already, but one could, with perfect justification, have looked for some announcement. There have been four announcements, two of which stated definitely that reductions were not contemplated, while the other two promised slight benefits to policyholders and mortgagors. If, as we suspect, the wealthy landholder, the big property-owner, the brewer, the banker, the insurance companies, the newspaper proprietors, and the mining companies, propose not to pass on the concessions they are receiving, this Parliament and the people have been misled. 3571 JLJ Gwydir 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr ABBOTT .- Listening to the speech that has just been delivered, one could not help_ despairing of the system of party government as it operates to-day. The honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) can find no good in anything proposed by a political opponent; to his retina all is black - or, possibly, red. Apparently he suffers from a super-charged spleen, and has to ease it by a violent criticism of the Government's proposals. While in some respects one cannot approve of the actions of the Government, one must, in fairness, credit it with having brought down courageous and far-reaching proposals. In regard to pensions, the situation today must be contrasted with that of twelve months ago, when the last budget was introduced. At that time the future Looked black; the position of the wool industry was desperate, Australia was threatened with bad seasons, and the Government of the principal State - New South Wales - had been running amok, threatening ruin to thousands of people. It was difficult to imagine a limit to the disaster that might happen. . The outlook to-day is immeasurably altered. The position of the wool industry has greatly improved, the financial situation is much better than it was, and the existing peace and good government in New South Wales are considerable factors in the prosperity of Australia. 3572 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - With wages reduced by 14s. a week, and 100,000 persons unemployed ! 3572 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr ABBOTT - The unemployed would have numbered 300,000 had the honorable member's so-called leader remained in power. Although the position of Australia, with the important exception of the wheat industry, is immeasurably better than it was twelve months ago, the world position has certainly not improved, and we cannot foretell what will be the situation twelve months hence. Last year, however, the Prime Minister had every justification for the budget proposals that he advanced, incorporated in which was the reduction of invalid and old-age pensions by 2s. 6d. a week. I supported those proposals in this House, and at a meeting in my electorate, at which the action of the Government was endorsed. It is unfortunate that a few weeks after the delivery of that budget the Government, doubtless acting under pressure, saw fit to alter its proposals. I believe that had they been adhered to, they would have been accepted by a large majority of pensioners. My experience of pensioners convinces me that they are eminently reasonable, and not extreme in their views. In the majority of cases their life-long political convictions incline them towards the Labour party. They realized the nature of the position, and were quite prepared to accept the proposed reduction; many of them told me so. But they were not then, nor are they now, willing parties to the property provisions. We all resent inquisitorial inquiries into our personal affairs, no one more so than the old people - who, after all, are perfectly entitled to expect consideration from the country in which they have dwelt for so long. I say frankly, that the Government lost prestige by that legislation. Having made up one's mind to take a certain course, unless it be proved absolutely wrong one is always wise to go through with it. We have been told that the property provisions were intended to prevent fraud, such as had allegedly been practised from time to time. No system is without flaws, and no section above suspicion-, but we should not judge a considerable body of decent citizens in the light of the fraudulent practices of a few who are not reputable. I cordially congratulate the pensions department upon the fair manner iu which it administers an exceedingly complicated piece of legislation. The pensions office in New South Wales, with whose work I have come in close contact, i3 considerably under-manned, and I pay a wholehearted tribute to the staff for the splendid service it renders in difficult circumstances. The property provision introduced by the Government last year has inflicted much anguish upon aged persons. Pensioners may be divided into three classes - those who contrive to accumulate sufficient money to enable them to obtain homes for themselves, those who put their life savings into government bonds or similar securities, and those who are thriftless. The latter, at the age of 65, have no difficulty in getting the full pension. The position is anomalous, because a penalty is imposed upon the thrifty. Few working men can save more than 10s. or 15s. a week, and those who manage to do so have to deny themselves many small pleasures; but the man who has saved nothing is in a more favorable position at the age of 65 years than the frugal individual who has acquired a small home. Eight years of active political life have convinced me that three important principles for' which the people of Australia stand are (1) the White Australia policy, (2) the arbitration system and (3) the pensions system, and no government or party would be well-advised to tamper with any one of them. I do not wish to imply that I agree entirely with the arbitration and pension systems in all their aspects. If the Government had adhered to the reduction of the invalid and old-age pensions by 2s. 6d. a week, as originally proposed last year, the people would have accepted the inevitable, and, since the general financial position is improving, the restoration of that 2s. 6d. could now "be considered. A little over a year ago, some of the existing harsh and difficult sections were not in the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act. It has been said that if the property provision were deleted, much extra cost would be involved, but I fail to see that anybody could arrive at a reliable estimate of the additional expense. The saving that has been made by reason of the property provision is not warranted, in view of the mental suffering that has been inflicted upon many of the pensioners. The press has announced that an amendment will be moved in committee by the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) to remove the present hardship; if he doos so, I shall support the amendment because I believe that it should be the desire of all parties to remove palpable injustice. While I commend the Government for such proposals as the reduction of taxation, I regret that this relief should 1)3 afforded 1 without considering the deletion of this property clause which so affects the invalid and old-age pensioners. The Country party desires to support the Government, but considers that it has every right to offer suggestions for the improvement of proposed legislation. The curse of the present political system is that one party seldom sees good in the proposals of another. I urge the Government to agree to the deletion of the unfair provision which gives to the department a lien on the property of a pensioner. 3573 KX7 ALP; LANG LAB from 1932; ALP from 1936 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The honorable member voted for that. 3573 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr ABBOTT - I supported the Government when that amendment was made, but the House had not full opportunity to discuss the proposal, because the guillotine was properly applied owing to concerted obstruction of business. Having regard to the improved financial outlook, we should endeavour to rectify this anomaly in the pensions law, and I hope that the Government will endeavour to meet the wishes of the majority in this House. I recognize that the Government has done good work since its advent to office, but although the financial position has greatly improved in the last twelve months, it would be foolish to imagine that our economic troubles are over. The Opposition is ill-advised in suggesting that the Government should restore all payments to the level ruling before the depression. In. my opinion, the time is not far distant when the cost of providing invalid and old-age pensions should cease to be a charge on the general taxpayers. A contributory plan should be devised to remove pensions and other social services from the hurly-burly of politics. As an illustration, many years ago, Australia could have undertaken the work of unifying the railway gauges of this country; but although the variation in gauges is largely responsible for the high costs of production, financial considerations now make it impracticable to carry out this work. I fear that if the introduction of a contributory pensions scheme is much longer delayed, it may be found almost impossible to give effect to it owing to the enormous cost that would be involved. I hope that possibly during the life of the present Government this matter will receive consideration. 3573 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The present system is a contributory one. The pensioners when they worked in industry contributed to the revenue from which others were paid pensions. 3573 JLJ 0 0 ABBOTT, Charles Mr ABBOTT - The present system imposes too great a burden on one section of the community, the taxpayers. Although I have not seen eye to eye with the Government on some matters, its administration has proved that it. desires to lighten the burdens of the man on the land. Much has to be done before Australia will again be prosperous. Political peace and the hearty cooperation of all parties in the work of reconstruction are essential. Whilst agreeing in the main with the proposals of the Government, I shall support the amendment relating to pensions, because I believe that it is necessary. I trust that the Government will give to it favorable consideration and endeavour to meet the desire of honorable members to ameliorate the conditions of the invalid and old-age pensioners. 3573 KLM Melbourne 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY .- I shall support the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) that al! the words after " That " be omitted, and the following words be inserted in lieu thereof : - " the hill he withdrawn and redrafted to provide for the complete restoration of the percentage reductions in Public Service salaries, wages, pensions, and social services ". I compliment the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Abbott) on speaking in support of a pending amendment relating to pensions. When a reduction of invalid Hid. old-age pensions was first proposed I said that I would sooner cut my throat than take even one penny from the pensioners, and I shall welcome any action taken by the Government to make easier the lot of the old men and women of Australia. Within a period of twelve months, over 3,000 invalid, old-age and war pensioners entered my office in Melbourne to seek my assistance or advice. I regret that the Government ever saw fit to reduce pensions, and I hope that it will accede to the request, to repeal the property provisions of the act. Wealthy men may not be happier because of living in mansions, but there are many old people who arc happy in homes which they have acquired as a result of much sacrifice and hardship, on the part of themselves and their children, and it wrings their hearts to know that when they die the Government will have first claim on their homes. Many old men and women have said to nil.1, " .1. do not like to take the old-age pension because it seems like charity". That cursed slur was thrown upon the pension by those who did not believe in it and would never require it. I told these old people that Queen Alexandra did not hesitate to accept a pension of £S0,000 a year. This Government, like most governments of to-day, seems to be anxious to tax people out of their homes. No savage community, not even a. cannibal community, would allow its men, women and little children to suffer through lack of proper and sufficient, food while plenty was available. The representative of the Government of the little Island of Tonga, when speaking to an audience of 1,500 people at the Wesley Church, and to thousands more over the wireless, said that he objected to the government of his country being called a comic opera government; his country had only one tax, viz., 16s. for every adult male, which entitled his wife, family, and self to full medical and surgical attention; the island had no income tax, land tax, or sales tax, and no stamp duty. He concluded his address by saying that no man, woman or child in Tonga was in need of food, and that there were many other countries, not excepting Australia, whose governments might more properly be likened to comic opera. I also am of that opinion. The last reductions under the financial emergency legislation were unscientific, and, in respect of pensioners who were not in receipt of full pensions, operated harshly .by bringing about a reduction out of all proportion to that in respect of a full pension. For instance, the lowering of a pension from 15s. to 10s. a fortnight, represents a reduction of 33-J per cent., whereas the taking of 2s. 6d. from a full pension represents a reduction of only 14 per cent. Therefore, the Government's present proposal is merely to restore a proportion of payments that were unfairly deducted. While all the reductions took effect on a fixed day, many of the adjustments that were promised in respect of cases in which the rate of reduction was higher than was considered proper, have, not been made to this day. It will be impossible for the department to handle quarterly adjustments for all pensioners within a reasonable time,_ and therefore many pensioners will be deprived of increases that are rightly due to them. I have no wish to blame the officers of the pensions department, because I know, from many years' experience, that, with the exception of one or two medical officers, they have been most sympathetic in their treatment to invalid and old-age pensioners. Those medical officers were attached to the Health Department. Of course, if the Government cared to augment the staff by giving employment to some of our workless, these adjustments could be made within a reasonable time; but I doubt whether that is the Government's intention. It has been suggested that a vote should be taken on this measure immediately. Some honorable members even suggested that a vote should be taken immediately after the speeches of the Minister who introduced the bill and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin). 3575 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr Archdale Parkhill - Why not have a referendum? 3575 KLM 0 0 MALONEY, William Dr MALONEY - I believe in the referendum, initiative, and recall. If such a system were in operation in Australia to-day there would be no need to appoint fool commissions with salaries costing up to £5,000 a year. Most of our citizens would gladly vote in favour of increasing the payments to the aged and invalid, knowing full well that every additional penny paid to them would be immediately replaced in circulation. I know that many wealthy people have been affected by the depression, but they have suffered little in comparison with the men and women who are trying to live on 17s. 0d..a week. I welcome every grain, of comfort that this Government is willing fo extend to my old brothers and sisters. We should restore to the invalid and old-age pensioners what the previous Government and this Government were compelled, through no fault of their own, to take away from them. If the Government cannot agree to do that, it should at least free the old people of the horror of having their little homes taken from them. We should give them the full pension as an act, not of charity, but of justice. 3575 K4X Riverina 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK .- The people of Australia, as well as the Government, are anxious that this relief bill shall have a speedy passage through Parliament. For that reason I shall curtail my remarks, but I must express my opposition to the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde). It seems to me that members of the Opposition have found it particularly difficult on this occasion to carry out their political duty to fault the Government. The public seem to be well pleased with the budget, and appreciate what the Government has done. If there is a fault in the budget it is that it does not go quite far enough. That the credit and financial standing of Australia have been improved is evident. Overseas loans have been converted at lower rates of interest. This is certainly an indication of the confidence of the British investor in the future of Australia. While expressing our satisfaction at this result, we should not, forget to give due credit to Ifr. Bruce, who lias helped to bring it about. It has been said by members of the Opposition that this financial relief bill contains nothing but largesse for the rich supporters of the Government. That is a biased, one-eyed view to take of a measure which contains something for almost every one. The farmers certainly are getting only a small share, but the sales tax has been reduced on a number of items which affect them, and considerable relief was granted in this direction last year. The public servants, the pensioners, the dependants of soldiers, and the insurance companies will benefit under this bill. I particularly commend the- Government on its decision to reduce the taxation on insurance companies. Life insurance is one of the methods by which the people are encouraged to be thrifty, and any government which unduly taxes insurance companies, particularly in regard to premiums, is discouraging thrift, and increasing the old-age pensions bill of the future. The proposal to restore the cut made some time ago in superannuation payments is a step in the right direction. This reduction always seemed to me to approach closely a breach of faith. An examination of the facts would show that many public servants who had contributed to this fund were, after the cut, receiving less by way of pension than they would have received if they had contributed nothing at all, but had relied upon the old-age pension for themselves and their wives. The Government should encourage its servants to provide for their old age. Other concessions have been made in regard to tea and beer, and benefits are being conferred on the vine-growers, banks, insurance companies, tobacco growers, butchers, saddlers, axemen, tailors, tyre-makers, chemists, dairy factory proprietors, builders, and fruit growers, while additional grants to the States are being made and remissions are being made in respect to land tax, income tax, super tax, primage and exchange. It is a pity that those who have spoken on behalf of the Opposition have attempted to distort the facts. The members of the public have not the same opportunity to study the Government's proposals as have members of Parliament, and the continued assertion that there is nothing in the Government's financial proposals for any one except the rich interests that support the party in power is apt to create a wholly wrong impression. As I have said, I regret that so little has been done for the farmer. There is no provision for assisting the wheat grower, though his overhead costs may be slightly reduced. A motor car must slacken speed when taking a corner. Australia has just turned the corner, and the time has now come to accelerate. To reduce the burden on industry is the best way to encourage production and provide employment. In normal times private enterprise provides 82 per cent, pf all employment, and any relief afforded to private industry by means of taxation remissions would immediately hasten the recovery. Those who are familiar with irrigation methods know that if they turn the same quantity of water through a li in. pipe as would normally go through a 6-in. pipe, it will soak into a small patch of ground at the end of the pipe, whereas if the water were allowed to flood freely through the bigger pipe it would irrigate the larger area, satisfy the needs of the ground, and' produce a better crop. The Government should make still larger remissions of taxation, and add momentum to the benefits which its policy provides. We should not deceive ourselves by raising a smoke screen of optimism regarding the financial position of the country. It is all very well to talk about balancing the budget, but we must face facts fairly, and ask ourselves how this result has been achieved. When Mr. Lang was Premier of New South Wales, he could have balanced his budget if he had been able to put into effect his proposal for a 10 per cent, levy on mortgages, and a tax of 5s. in the £1 on incomes. But, although the. budget would have been balanced, there would have been no general return to prosperity as a result. Indeed, things would have been worse than ever, because he would have taken so much from the people that their budgets could not be balanced; indeed the community would be ruined. The Commonwealth Government has taken more than was justified from an impoverished people. The figures show that in order to balance the federal budget, extra taxation burdens to the amount of £27,000,000 have been placed on industry, besides salary and pension cuts to the amount of £6,125,000. No time should be lost in removing this extra burden of taxation. I do not object to the restoration of a portion of the cuts made in salaries and pensions, but I consider that the Government has been generous in that direction. The percentage restoration of salaries and pensions is approximately the same as the percentage remissions of the abnormal taxation. More cannot be justified. It appears to be necessary to review the general economic position in the light of. the production of wealth in Australia. We are always being told that the purchasing power of the community should be restored, and some people have a notion that the only way to do that is to increase wages. Not very long ago, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Scullin) was reported to have said in Brisbane " We should give to all sections increased purchasing power so that they might be able to buy the necessaries of life." How can we give everybody such purchasing power? No government can give without first taking from somebody else. The purchasing power of the community is the aggregate value of the wealth produced by the people, and no government, can increase it. The meru taking of something from one section and giving it to another does not increase the total purchasing power of the community; it merely transfers it. Last year the wealth produced in Australia increased by only £9,000,000, making a total of £314,000,000, while the average for the six years prior to 1930-31 was £437,000,000.- It is evident, therefore, that last year there was £123,000,000 less to divide among the people, and from that lesser amount, the Government took an extra £8,000,000 in taxation. In 1930-31, taxation represented 19.6 per cent, of the total wealth produced, but in 1932-33, taxation represented 29.7 per cent. Therefore, the reduction of taxation is one of the most vital and urgent needs confronting the Government. A survey of the prices of primary products will confirm my argument. Present indications are that the value of Australia's wheat crop will be £5,000,000 less thai last year. Wool, with a lighter clip, but realizing a higher price, will be worth about £5,000,000 more, lamb, butter and metals about £2,000,000 more. Therefore, our national income will be very little greater this year than it was last year, and the only direction in which we shall be any better off will be in regard to taxation which the Government proposes to reduce. 1 urge upon the Government the need for still further reducing the federal land tax, in connexion with which there has been much misrepresentation. Fm the moment, I am not so much concerned with who pays the tax, as with the principle of the tax itself. This is a tax on capital, and, in farming and grazing, the value of a man's land represents anything from 50 per cent, to 80 per cent, of his total capital. The land tax is not merely a single impost but it is an annual charge on that capital, and there is no more justification for levying such a charge on land than there would be for levying an annual tax on bonds, the machinery in a factory, or the plant used in any other industry. The principle is unsound. The tax was first imposed for the purpose of breaking up large estates, and in that it has failed. Therefore, it should be abolished. Members of the Opposition object to the abolition of the tax because much of it is paid by those whom they describe as wealthy city landholders. It was pointed out last year, however, when this matter was under discussion, that for one large boot factory, the land tax represented an extra 4£d. on every pair of boots produced. The tax adds to the overhead charges of all big business enterprises and financial institutions, and this must be taken into consideration in fixing prices of goods and rates of interest. It has been stated that the super tax on property incomes has also had the effect of keeping up interest rates. We were informed that, if the income and super tax were removed, the Australian Mutual Provident Society would reduce the interest rate on rural mortgages to 4 per cent. The tax is to be decreased by half, and the company has reduced its interest rates to 4$ per cent. It is clear that increased overhead charges must be reflected in increased prices for the commodities produced, and the burden is eventually passed on to the user or consumer. In most industries there is reasonable competition to-day, and any reduction of overhead charges will be passed on to the public. It has been stated that, although the duty on tea has been reduced, there has been no reduction of the price, but those who have studied the reports of the tea sales iu India have observed that the price of tea there has advanced considerably. Whether or not the same quantity of tea is being produced we do not know, but it is certain that supplies are not available to the market. We are hoping that the whole of these concessions will be passed on. I consider that there is sufficient competition in the ordinary course of business, except in the case of monopolies, to ensure that the people will enjoy the benefits of most of them. I am pleased that a reduction, of primage duties is proposed, and that Parliament will be asked to adopt the report of the Tariff Board on exchange iu relation to customs duties. It may justly be claimed that the Government has been generous in the restoration of cuts. The position of the invalid and old-age pensioners has been referred to at length. I think there was not so much complaint on the part of the pensioners about the reduction of the amount of pension as about the property provisions of the amended legislation. The average person realizes that the cost of living had fallen to such an extent that 16s., which is about the average rate of pension now paid, buys as much as 22s. bought when the pension was £1 a week. The purchasing power of the pensioner has not, therefore, been reduced. Still, I agree with the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Abbott) that . the property provisions of the pensions law, which have caused so much trouble, friction and conflict, should be amended. Of course, the Government should be protected against exploitation, but action of this nature could well be deferred until the estates of deceased pensioners are submitted for probate. It should he possible to avoid harassing these old people during the declining years of their lives. Great disappointment has been expressed at the silence of the budget speech respecting assistance for the wheatgrowers, and the statement made to-day by the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Stewart) on that subject has intensified the disappointment. But the matter will come up later. I think that the list of goods exempt from sales tax might be extended, but this is a subject which can he dealt with more effectively in committee. There are reasons why the Government should add certain items to the list of exemptions, and I hope that it will extend its good work. 3578 KLL Hindmarsh 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN .- The purpose of this bill is to give effect to certain proposals in the budget speech. We have all had an opportunity to express our keen disappointment with the budget, and the introduction of this bill enables us to reiterate those opinions. Additional evidence of the dissatisfaction of 'honorable members of the Labour party is afforded by' the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), to which I give my cordial support. The glaring unfairness of the financial relief which the Government is proposing to give is ample justification for the moving of the amendment. As the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) has said, remissions of taxation equivalent to about £7,500,000 are being afforded to the wealthy sections of the community, while relief to the amount of only £1,500,000 is being given to the invalid and old-age pensioners and public servants, who have been called upon to make substantial sacrifices in consequence of the depression and economic crisis. If the concessions proposed by the Government are based on equity, I do not understand the meaning of that word. I find it impossible to reconcile the speeches of the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Abbott) and the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock). The honorable member for Riverina has affirmed that the farming community will receive very little benefit from the budget. I should like to know how he, as a rural representative, can, in these circumstances, give any support to a Government which, he has admitted, has done nothing to help the struggling man on the land. I was astonished to hear some of the remarks of the honorable member. How can the man on the land be expected to regain a sense of security when faced with this budget, and a future which appears to be so- uncertain ? Yet the honorable member, while confessing that the budget was inadequate to the needs of the farmers, went on to complain that it did not go foi' enough ! Apparently the honorable gentleman is . more concerned about the wealthy sections of the community than the man on the land. It was satisfactory to hear the honorable member for Gwydir admit that he had made a mistake twelve months ago, when he supported the Government's proposal for the assignment of the. property of pensioners, but his cm-ious explanation in" justification of his attitude on that occasion will not be satisfactory to the people who have suffered. I was rather amused to hear the honorable member talk of the dark days of the .crisis through which the country was. .passing twelve months ago, for I remembered that he was a party, at that very time, to the granting of substantial remissions of taxation to the wealthy interests of Australia. Those remissions were possible only by the imposition of heavier burdens on other sections of the community, including the pensioners. The honorable member also speciously argued that the Government was forced to adopt the course that it took twelve months ago, because of the chaos and disorder caused by the Lang Government in New South Wales. Actually, of course, the Lang Government had been defeated at the polls four months before the present Commonwealth Government made its slashing attack on pensioners. The honorable member's attempt to saddle the responsibility for the actions of this Government on to- a defeated government in New South Wales was ridiculous. This Government wrung from the old age and invalid pensioners and the publicservants an amount equivalent to the remissions of taxation granted last year. The people were called upon to make these additional sacrifices, not to meet added financial obligations, hut to benefit the wealthy supporters of the Government. The honorable member forRiverina, arguing that Australia's financial position had improved, said that the measure of the improvement was the better standing of our stocks on the London market, and the terms obtained in the recent conversion loan operations. If the honorable gentleman had looked further afield, he would have learned that South Africa, for instance, was able to convert certain loans in London at as low a rate as 3-1/2 per cent., and that India and Canada had also obtained accommodation quite as good as, and in some cases better than, that obtained by Australia. There is, therefore, no particular cause to congratulate the Government on the conditions obtained by Australia on the London market recently. The Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) said so recently us Monday last that Australia should keep faith with the world. In my opinion, it is time that the Australian Government kept faith with its own citizens. It should recognize its responsibilities to those who have made the greatest sacrifices during the economic crisis - those of our citizens who receive help under our social service legislation and also the Commonwealth public servants. As these have suffered more than any other section of the community during this period the Government, when it found that it had surplus funds at its disposal, should have dealt equitably and justly by them. Instead of doing so it is, in certain respects, intensifying the existing hardships. Some of the provisions of this bill, for instance, are designed to strengthen the law relating to the assignment of the property of pensioners, and to help the Government to recover, from the relatives of deceased pensioners, amounts paid in pensions. The Government and its supporters should feel ashamed when they realize how pensioners have been harassed and humiliated. The legislation passed by this Government has intimidated invalid and old-age pensioners. Many honest and thrifty citizens have been so humiliated that they have re linquished their claims to pensions. If the right honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Page) moves to delete certain objectionable provisions of the act he will have the support of honorable members of the Opposition, who have always opposed certain unjust provisions in the existing law; -but the right honorable gentleman and some of those with whom he is associated should remember that they assisted in the imposition of the harsh provisions to which they now object. Instead of endeavouring to make our invalid and old-age pension legislation less acceptable to our aged folk, the Government should immediately restore the pension of £1 a week, and remove many of the unjust conditions- imposed under the act and by regulations. The Government should also recognize the claims of a widow in receipt of a war pension which was regarded as sacrosanct, but which is now taken into consideration in calculating invalid and old-age pensions. It is unjust that those in receipt of war pensions should be deprived of their full rights under the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act. I also take strong exception to the way in which the Government extracts money from pensioners who have small credits in savings banks. Several cases have come under my notice, and this is a typical one. A man received 26s. in interest over a period of twelve months on a deposit of £34; in consequence, his pension was reduced by (id. a week. I asked the Prime Minister if this anomaly would be removed. I pointed out that if a pensioner is entitled to possess capital to the statutory limit of £50 he should also be permitted to receive interest on that amount. In reply to my representations I received the following communication from the Prime Minister dated the 11th October: - With reference to your letter of loth August, regarding deductions on . account of interest received by pensioners from Savings Bank deposits, I have to say that this matter has frequently been under notice. In reply to a question in the House of Representatives by Mr. James, M.P. on 29th March, 1933, the right honorable the Attorney-General said: - " The question relates not to sympathy, but to the application of the law as it has always stood in relation to pensioners who receive interest from banking deposits. Sometimes the amount deducted by the department is 3d. a week, and sometimes it is much more than that. X am unaware that it has ever been proposed that the income provisions of the act should be ignored." Your letter in effect suggests that the law be amended to exclude From the income of a pensioner, interest on Savings Bank deposits of £50 or less, his reason being that foO is a statutory exemption from property and that the interest on a like amount of Savings Bank deposits should be exempted from income. This course would, however, not entirely eliminate small reductions of pensions because when the interest on the excess deposit over £50 amounted to threepence, sixpence or ninepence per week it would be necessary to reduce the rate of pension accordingly. If the law were amended to provide that interest on a Savings Bank deposit should not be counted as income where the deposit did not exceed £50 the anomaly would arise that a pensioner who had a Savings Bank deposit of £50 would receive a pension of 17s. Od. per week whilst a pensioner with a Savings Bank deposit of £51 would suffer a reduction in the rate of his pension. In view of the foregoing it is considered that it would not be desirable to take action on the lines you suggest. I do not know if this is the Government's final word on the matter. It is paltry to deduct, say 3d. or 6d. a week from a person's pension. Further, the act provides that if a pensioner lives with a son or daughter his board shall be taken into account and regarded as income in calculating the pension. That provision is unnecessarily harsh and should not be allowed to remain operative. Section 17 of the act reads - No person shall receive an old-age pension unless his relatives, namely, husband, wife, father, mother or children, do not either severally or collectively adequately maintain him - A provision similar to this was removed from the act in 1912, but, 21 years later we find it again introduced. If the sons or daughters of pensioners are willing to assist their parents in the evening of their lives by the provision of a little added comfort in the home, the pensioners should hot be penalized. A son may contribute 45s. a week towards the support of his parents, and another, whose circumstances may not be so favorable, may pay 25s. a week, but because a son or daughter contributes the larger amount, the parents receive a reduced pension. In some cases the pension is so reduced that it almost disappears. Why should the mothers or fathers be penalized because their sons or daughters seek to give them a little additional comfort? I trust that in committee the Government will delete that section of the act which I have quoted and which operates most unfairly. If honorable members on this side of the chamber should fail in their effort to increase the invalid and old-age pension to £1 a week the Government should give serious consideration to invalid pensioners who are compelled to purchase special foods and medicines. I refer especially to sufferers from tuberculosis. These unfortunate people, at least, should have their pension restored to £1 a week. I shall not be satisfied until all pensions are restored to that rate, hut if the House does not agree that that can be done immediately, it should at least grant £1 a week to those whose health is so precarious. The amending pensions legislation has imposed additional work on the officers of the department, with the result that in some cases in which inquiries have to be made, a considerable time elapses between the submission of the application for a pension and the granting of it. Previously, pensions granted in such cases were retrospective to the date of the application, but now retrospective payments do not exceed two pension periods. The new rule has deprived a number of deserving applicants of their pensions for several weeks. This is a matter which should be rectified immediately, and I hope that the House will agree that in all cases the pension shall date from the making of the application. The provision in the act in relation to what is termed " adequate maintenance " operates harshly, and the reduction to the amount now allowed causes distinct hardship. I hope that the Government will agree to liberalize the existing provision. I take this opportunity to refer again to the harsh legislation passed by this Parliament because I was not able to do so fully in the budget discussion. The principle underlying those provisions of the act which relate to the property of pensioners is wrong, and this Parliament would do well to remove the offending sections from the statute-book. The Government may claim that it has not sold any of the homes of pensioners, and also that of £34,000 claimed, it has been able to collect only about £9,000. I am not so greatly concerned with the action taken by the Government in connexion with the property of pensioners, as with its intimidation of persons, who consequently have not applied for pensions at all. During the last 12 months over 12,000 pensions have been surrendered. I dare the Government or any of its supporters to repeat the slander uttered 12 months ago that those who would surrender pensions would be persons not entitled to them. 3581 KXQ NAT; UAP from 1931 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - Who said that ? 3581 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - Supporters of the Government made the statement many times, and before this debate is concluded the record of their speeches will be produced. Last year several honorable members opposite were prepared to support the statement of the Auditor-General that a large number of persons in receipt of pensions were really not entitled to them. I say unhesitatingly that the number of persons in the community, especially among the more influential sections, who are guilty of falsifying accounts, evading taxation, and attempting to defraud the customs, is greater than the number who make false declarations in regard to pensions. 3581 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - Does that excuse the pensioners who make false statements ? 3581 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - There is no excuse for any falsification of accounts, or wrong statements. Nor is there any excuse for treating harshly worthy citizens who are deserving of consideration from this Parliament. The Government has failed completely to show generosity towards invalid and old-age pensioners. I hope that it will abandon its callous attitude and agree to remove from the statute-book the blot caused by the iniquitous property qualifications. It should go even further and refund to pensioners the £9,000 of which they have been mulet. Then it may claim its policy in relation to a section of the community which is deserving of the most generous treatment that the country can afford is dictated by worthy motives and honest principles. 3581 KXQ Warringah UAP Postmaster-General 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL . - I am tempted to make a few observations to indicate that this is not a bill whose sole purpose is to deal with invalid and old-age pensions. I admit that invalid and old-age pensioners merit every consideration, also that they are peculiarly the stock in trade of a certain class of politician. But there is another section in the community which arousesmy sympathy to an even greater extent, and is utterly neglected by the so-called representatives of the workers; I refer to the unemployed, who have no income. Throughout this debate there has been an incessant parrot cry from honorable members opposite that further concessions should be made to invalid and old-age pensioners, and it has been insinuated that all taxation relief provided for in the measure is for the wealthy. I remind honorable members that during the depression years one section suffered even more cruelly than invalid and old age pensioners, as the result of burdensome taxation. I have in mind the great middle class, the backbone of the country, whose members practise thrift and self-denial in order to set aside a competence by which they can support themselves in their declining years, and so make it unnecessary for them to ask for an old-age pension. In common with every other section in the community they will benefit from the remissions of taxation which are provided for in the bill, and are designed to effect a restoration of prosperity in which all will share. I repeat what I have said on many occasions that it is to private enterprise that we must look for the re-absorption of the unemployed. The fact has never been denied, for it is as obvious as is a mountain peak on the horizon, that the only way that our workless can bo reabsorbed into industry is by making it profitable for investors and employers to extend their activities. When the 35s. a week that is paid to a pensioner and his wife is compared with what State Governments, whether led by Lang or another, have done for their workless citizens, it must bo admitted that our pensioners have been treated fairly and reasonably. This Government has done its utmost for invalid and old-age pensioners and for that reason it will secure its due measure of their support. Personally, I yield to none in my respect and admiration for the pioneers of Australia who are now on the country's pension list. I am prepared to give to them every consideration, hut I also desire to ensure that other classes shall receive similar consideration. Let me show how Australia's pension hill has grown. In 1910 the sum of £1,433,000 was paid to maintain this social service. In 1912 the amount had grown to £2,000,000, and in 1920 it was £4,484,000; while in 1930-31, when the Scullin Government was in office the startling total of £11,711,000 had been reached. The rate of pension was then £1 per week, and it is calculated that, if the nation's pension commitments were to increase in the same ratio during the succeeding ten years the stupendous yearly payment of £29,000,000 would he reached. Faced with the ever-growing cost of this social service the Scullin Government realized that decisive action had to be taken. It was admitted that, if the cost of social and other services were not restricted, the Government would be able to pay only 12s. in the £1 to all concerned. It took steps to reduce the bill from £11,711,000 to £11,126,000 by cutting down payments by 2s.6d. a week. The bill for 1932-33 was further reduced by the present Government by reducing pensions by 2s. 6d. a week, which is now being restored to pensioners. Last year the bill was £10,771,000. This yearit will be in the vicinity of £11,000,000, and will represent a. payment to our pensioners of approximately 4s. 6d. out of every £1 in taxation contributed by the people of this country. The Government considers this a fair and reasonable contribution for this social service. If our invalid and old-age pensioners were left alone; if so many members were not continually agitating on their behalf, but not at their request, we should hear few complaints from the pensioners who, for the most part, are decent citizens whose one desire is to spend the remaining years of their life in peace and quietness. But unfortunately this political agitation is forced upon them by their so-called friends who, apparently cannot mind their own business. Probably they realize that if they ceased their activities they would be deprived of one-half of their stock in trade and would be unable to extract so many threepenny pieces from pensioners for the payment of those agitators who batten on the old people. Although objection has been taken by a number of honorable members to certain provisions in the bill, nothing was said to-night of the wealthy relatives, sons and daughters of pensioners who, from a sense of filial duty, should contribute- to the support of their aged parents./ A great deal of hotair has been expended in criticism of the provisions of the act relating to the property of pensioners, but 1 doubt if any honorable member really believes that those sections work any injustice either to the pensioners themselves or their relatives. They merely think it a suitable ground upon which to attack the Government for attempting to prevent the bill for social services from assuming snowball dimensions, as was the case of a few years ago when the Scullin Government found it necessary to reduce the bill by cutting clown pension payments. 3582 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - Who helped that Government to do that? 3582 KXQ 0 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL - The honorable member should discuss that matter with, his Labour friends on his right. This Government is deserving of the support of all right-thinking citizens in its attempt to do an obviously unpopular thing and deal fairly by pensioners and taxpayers alike. When the provisions relating to property were under discussion, the majority of honorable members who voted for their inclusion in the act did so on the understanding that all pensioners owning a home, or property in some other form, should be left in enjoyment of it; but that relatives who were in a position to contribute to the support of their parents and declined to do so, should not be allowed to benefit by becoming wholly possessed of the pensioners' property at death. Very few honorable members will object to this principle, because, as I have stated, it is a simple act of justice to the pensioners and the taxpayers. Setting aside all the sob-stuff which has been introduced into the discussion tonight, there are few people who will not admit the justice of the Government's proposal. I know of pensioners who are living in homes valued at anything up to £2,000. Obviously, the pension is not suinciei.it to pay the rates and taxes, which, we may reasonably assume, are being paid by those relatives who will inherit the property after the death of the pensioner. Meanwhile the taxpayers of this country are expected to foot the bill for the payment of a pension to the owner. Much sympathy, spurious and otherwise, has, in this discussion, been expended on our invalid and old-age pensioners. Honorable members have been vying with one another in attacking this Government. But there are two sides to this as to every other question. Up to the present, only one side of the Government's proposals with regard to pensions has been put before the House. Thu full facts should be stated. My principal object in rising was to urge that the Government has a sound case for all that it proposes to do. I believe it to be in the interests of all sections that remissions of taxation should lie made, so that' every decent man in this country, looking for work, may obtain it. That object will be achieved if it receives the wholehearted support of the genuine friends of the workers in this House. 3583 K0D Hume 0 0 COLLINS, Thomas Mr COLLINS .- Considering the condition of chaos that existed when the Government assumed office twenty months ago, it is entitled to be complimented on the current year's budget, and on the bill tha.t we now have before us. There arc, however, some regrettable omissions. Practically every section of the community will benefit from the proposed taxation remissions. That is one of tha soundest features of the bill, because the effect will be to make available, for the employment of labour in reproductive work, money that otherwise would have had to be earmarked for the payment of taxes. "When the land tax was first imposed, the object was to compel the subdivision of large estates, but in that direction it failed dismally. I am sorry that the present intention is not bo abolish this tax entirely, instead of merely to reduce it. The cost of collec tion will practically equal the revenue received from it. The reductions of taxation proposed on incomes and in other directions will afford a measure of relief to those who are mainly instrumental in promoting the welfare of Australia. It. is action along these lines which will eventually effect financial rehabilitation and the revival of industry. On the Supply Bill last week, I criticized the administration of the .Sales Tax Acts, and supported my argument with specific cases. I mentioned the case of a man who was put to considerable expense to furnish a return, and then received an assessment for 9d. I have before me now papers which prove that men have been harassed and forced to furnish returns. In one case the net assessment was id., but the department increased it to Id., thus increasing the tax by 100 per cent. The cost of that transaction was - 2d. to issue the notice, and 2d. to return it, apart from paper, printing, and other incidentals, making the cost of collection about 600 per cent, more than the actual tax. This man is struggling to eke out a living for himself and his wife. In other cases the tax is 4d., 5d., and 7d., to which are added an accountant's charge amounting to £2 18s. 9d. Such anomalies should be removed, and the people should be protected against this form of mailed-fist administration. Last year I could see no justification for the proposal to interfere with the properties of invalid and old-age pensioners. Many Government members also held the view that that was a wrong action, yet they allowed themselves *n be attached to the apron strings of the Government, and voted against the dictates of their own consciences. Had they voted in accordance with their convictions, it would have been better for the country, the Government, and themselves. I am not contending that a complete review of this social service was not needed in order to weed out impostors. It cannot be denied that every social service is exploited by "go-getters." It was never intended, however, that the pension should .be made a charge on the property of these old people. It is given, not as .an act of charity, but as payment for services well and faithfully rendered in the pioneering of this great, country. I objected to the property provisions last year, and I still do so. I believe that the Government and those who support it also hold the view that a wrong action wa3 taken; therefore, the sooner these provisons are repealed, the better. To err is human. If the Government acknowledges the making of a mistake, and rectifies it, the measure of gratification it will derive from the forgiveness of pensioners will amply repay it for any discomfort it may have suffered during the present debate. Severe hardships have also been inflicted upon men who, having served their country, have been denied a war pension because, upon their return to Australia, they endeavoured to earn an honest living, and to maintain themselves without assistance from the Government. I have fought with ' the department in the interest of many returned soldiers who have tried to be independent of a pension, but through failing health have been forced to appeal to the tribunals, only to find that pensions have been refused to them on the ground that their disability has not arisen from war service. I have in mind one case in which the applicant was probably as physically fit as anybody in Australia when he left for the front. He was engaged in contract work, and his strength was remarkable. Although this fact was testified to by reputed pastoralists and wheat-farmers, their written statements were ignored by the department. It was alleged that the man's mother had suffered from asthma, but she was still alive at the age of 90 years, and had never had that complaint. Yet this ex-soldier is left in a helpless position, because he is unable to earn his living. As the honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock) has remarked, the agreement entered into by the Government with regard to wheat offers little hope for the growers, although their success determines, in a great measure, the well-being of every other section of the community, despite the fact that some are foolish enough to suggest that Australia could live on its secondary industries. Until the wheat industry is placed on a sound footing, I see little chance of a. restoration of the cuts made in pensions and other social services, and in the salaries of public servants in view of the strong representations that have been made to the Government. I had hoped that substantial relief would be afforded to the lower-paid public servants who gracefully and loyally accepted a 20 per cent, salary reduction under the Financial Emergency Act. I trust that the Government will give au assurance before this debate is concluded that, as circumstances permit, the salaries of these officers will be restored to the former level, because they find it practically impossible to balance their domestic budgets at their present rate of remuneration. I recognize, however, that the bill contains proposals which should make possible the employment of large numbers of men in reproductive work. 3584 KYZ Kennedy 0 0 RIORDAN, David Mr RIORDAN .- The Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) has made a plea to-night on behalf of the unemployed, but it would have been more interesting to hear what he said -when he urged his party to hand out the money that is to be returned to the wealthy interests.^ One finds little in the bill that will bring consolation to those who are out of work or to parents with children leaving school. What prospect does the measure offer for those who do general labouring work? The Financial Emergency Act was passed in 1931 with a view to balancing the budget and getting the unemployed back into industry. At that time, 30 per cent, of the people were unemployed, and, to-day, after two years' operation of the Premiers plan, SS per cent, are still without work. Although this Government balanced its budget the year before last, no provision has yet been made for the workers by the Commonwealth or any of the States. The Postmaster-General has stated that the passing of this legislation will enable private enterprise to give employment to a number of people. The facts do not support this contention. Last year we were told that as a result of the reduction of taxation private enterprise would absorb some of the unemployed, but the unemployment percentage for this quarter is greater than it was for the corresponding period last year. The present unemployment percentage of 2S per cent, includes men who are registered members of organizations, but excludes the army of unemployed youths who have left school during the last four years. During the recess I travelled from Canberra to the Gulf of Carpentaria, and I found at every little wayside town from 20 to 30 unemployed whose ages ranged from 16 to 60 years, and I have no doubt that80per cent, of them were anxious to obtain work. It has been stated that men will not work while they are receiving the dole. Let us investigate that statement. Queensland pays the highest dole in the Commonwealth, and the rate to the single man humping his swag is a little over10d. a day. Honorable members can rest assured that that unfortunate does not suffer from indigestion or dropsy as a result of riotous living. The 28 per cent, of people who are out of work are no better off as a result of the absorption in employment of 2 per cent, during the lasttwo years. The Government has stated that this country is on the road to prosperity, yet no appreciable effort is being made to place men in employment. At many country railway stations the police are rounding up men who jump the trains, and at one station I saw mounted police doing this work. 3585 KIU 0 0 HUTCHIN, Arthur Mr Hutchin - Why are the racing clubs increasing their stakes? 3585 KYZ 0 0 RIORDAN, David Mr RIORDAN - The fact that the racing clubs are increasing their stakes shows that the proposed remissions of taxation will be of considerable benefit to them, and to the people who can afford to pay 10s. or11s. to attend race meetings on Saturday afternoons. The increased prize money is not likely to take one man off the labour market. This bill, although termed a prosperity measure, makes no provision for the most deserving section of the community, and as a result of its introduction there has been more rejoicing in the Millions Club than in the unemployment camp. The Postmaster-General said that unemployment stands out like a mountain peak, and he made a plea on behalf of the workers. It is regrettable that that plea was missing when the hill was being framed. The Government no doubt saved considerable money last year as a result of the reduction of pensions by 2s. 6d. a week. After the passing of the act, the pensions department worked on the assumption that every pensioner was in receipt of income, so the pension was reduced immediately by 2s. 6d. a week, and the onus placed on the pensioner to prove that he had no income, the Government in this way saving at least £100,000. By the time that some of the old people had established their right to a. pension of 17s. 6d., they had lost what to them was a considerable sum. The Postmaster-General stated that some pensioners lived in homes worth £2,000, and that the children were paying the rates and waiting for the old people to die, so that they could obtain possession of the properties. That statement is a half truth. If the dependants of a pensioner who lives in a home worth £2,000 pay rates in excess of £79 a year, an amount equal to the maximum income a pensioner may receive, no pension is payable, because, under the act, the rates are classed as income. I ask leave to continue my remarks. Leave granted; debate adjourned. 3585 Adjournment Eree Listeners' Licences tor the Blind - Pension Rights of Naturalized Aliens - Blind Pensioners. Motion (by Mr. White) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 3585 KNX Wentworth UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr E J HARRISON . - Last May I made an appeal to the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) for the issue of free listeners' licences by the Postmaster-General's Department to blind persons, and I now renew that appeal. I have collected figures in connexion with this matter which seem to me to be of such importance that the Postmaster-General should take them into consideration before bringing the Estimates for his department before Parliament. The fees collected from listeners, over and above the cost of broadcasting, amounted to £172,000 when the number of licences was 484,700. Since then the number of licences has been increasing at the rate of 10,500 a month for many months past, an increase which was never anticipated by the department when it fixed the proportion of revenue to be paid to the Broadcasting Commission. Tor August of this year the number of licence-holders was 491,233, who provide an annual revenue of £550,000. Out of this sum the Broadcasting Commission receives £294,739, on the basis of 12s. from each licence. A further sum of £78,684 is paid each year to Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited at the rate of 3s. for each licence. It is now proposed to cease this payment, and the Postmaster-General has stated that the listeners may benefit accordingly. The Broadcasting Commission receives this huge revenue in order to finance programmes for just eight first-class broadcasting stations, so that these stations are splitting approximately £5,688 a week among them. That represents an average of £718 a week for each station, and from this the commission is required to provide programmes, and that alone. No doubt, however, the money is not split evenly. Sydney and Melbourne are probably getting about £1,000 a week for the supply of programmes. We are entitled to ask what is the nature of the programmes which are being supplied in return for this revenue. According to the report of the Royal Commission on Performing Rights, the proportion of human and mechanical performances were as follows for a period of three months during 1932 : - 2FC, Sydney - July, 1932 - 59 per cent, mechanical performances: 41 per cent, human performances. August, 1932 -61 per cent, mechanical performances; 38 per cent, human performances. September, 1932 - 58 per cent, mechanical performances, 41 per cent, human performances. 3LO, Melbourne - July, 1932 - 50 per cent, mechanical performances; 49 per cent, human performances. August, 1932 - 57 per cent, mechanical performances; 43 per cent, human performances. September, 1932 - 47 per cent, mechanical performances; 52 per cent, human performances. The Broadcasting Commission cannot be using the whole of its revenue on the production of programmes, seeing that, on its own admission, over 50 per cent, of performances are mechanical. A considerable amount of revenue must by this- time have accumulated, and I contend that out of this provision should be made for granting free licences to the blind. Seeing that there are only 4,000 blind persons in the Commonwealth, the majority of whom are maintained by institutions, either government or otherwise, this concession would not bear too heavily on the department. The blind are the lowest earning group in the community, consequently only a small percentage of the 4,000 would take advantage of the exemption, and the Minister must realize that the granting of this concession would not cost- more than £1,000 a year. Action such as this would not be peculiar to Australia. Practically every country in the world has a free wireless scheme for the blind. Within the Empire such schemes are in operation in Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa, and free licences are also granted by Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Sweden, and Switzerland. Similar action has been taken by Belgium and Italy, while Russia, Holland,France, and the United States of America have no licence-fees at all. Any action taken by the Government along these lines would have the approval of every right-thinking person in the community. It would have the effect of making the loneliness of physical darkness less pronounced, and would in crease the happiness of the blind, and make their home life more contented. Therefore, I confidently appeal to the Postmaster-General to make provision in the Estimates, if he has not already done so, for giving this measure of relief to these unfortunate people. 3586 KMZ Herbert 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr MARTENS .- On Wednesday last, I endeavoured to interview the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) regarding the denial of a pension to an applicant because he was born in New Caledonia. I was told that the Prime Minister was busy, but that when he was free he would send for me. I was not sent for, and, on the following day, I again tried to see him. On that occasion, I was informed that he was in consultation with the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Casey), and that when he was free he would send for. me. Again he did not send for me. While I was waiting, however, a messenger was sent out to find Dr. Earle Page, with whom the Prime Minister desired to consult. That, of course, was the Prime Minister's own business, and not mine; but, seeing that I was repeatedly snubbed when I sought a personal interview, I feel that I am justified in bringing the matter up before the House. It has to do with the application for a pension by William Seekis, a native of New Caledonia, and a citizen of France until he became a naturalized British subject in Australia. His naturalization papers state that, by virtue of his naturalization, he becomes entitled to all political and other rights, powers, and privileges, and becomes subject to all obligations, duties, and liabilities to which a natural-born British subject is entitled or subject, and that, from the date of the document, he has, to all intents and purposes, the status of a natural-born British subject. I have received a letter from Mr. Heathershaw, Commissioner for Pensions, stating that, as the applicant was born in New Caledonia, he is not entitled to a pension, notwithstanding that he has become naturalized. 3587 KZF Barton 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE .- I sincerely hope that the Postmaster-General (Mr,- Parkhill) will to-night tell us definitely whether the Government intends to grant free wireless licences for the blind. Practically every honorable member of the House has at some time or other been in correspondence with the honorable gentleman on this subject, and has received favorable letters iu reply to his representations. While the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. E. J. Harrison) was visiting North Queensland, I had the honour to introduce a deputation to the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) on this subject. Mr. Campbell, secretary to the Australasian Association of the Blind, submitted a strong case to the right honorable gentleman on this subject. Other matters, in addition to the granting of wireless licences for the blind, were placed before the right honorable gentleman. We know very well that the organizations of the blind do their best to discourage blind mendicants from appearing on the streets; but there is a limitation to the avenue3 of employment open to these unfortunate people. A provision of the pensions act debars pensioners from engaging in business except by the selling of newspapers. We are told that, if a man sells tobacco or matches on a street corner, and is paid ls. for 6d. worth of goods, it is practically mendicancy ; but I cannot see any difference between a transaction of that kind and giving a blind man 3d. for a newspaper that ordinarily costs l£d. It should be the privilege of the Government to help these unfortunate people. We appreciate the fact that the blind pensioners are allowed to earn up to a little more than £200 a year without endangering their pension; but I hope that even more will be done for them. I trust that, in the bill now before the House, provision will be made to enable a blind man who, at great sacrifice, is able to buy a house in the course of his lifetime, to will it to his dependants. I appeal to the Postmaster-General again to make a definite statement to honorable members on the attitude of the Government towards blind pensioners and others. 3587 K9A Reid 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr GANDER .- On behalf of honorable members on this side of the chamber I also wish to make further representations, to the Postmaster-General (Mr. Parkhill) on -behalf of the blind. We have all interested ourselves in the welfare of this deserving section of the people. Personally, I have both interviewed the Postmaster-General and written him letters on this subject, and t have been promised that, immediately funds are available, the Government will do what it -can to alleviate the conditions of the blind people. I believe that, when the Postmaster-General made that promise, he spoke from his heart. 3587 KXQ Warringah UAP Postmaster-General 1 0 PARKHILL, Robert Mr ARCHDALE PARKHILL . - Unfortunately, I did not hear the first part of the speech of the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. E. J. Harrison), but I understand that it related to the granting of free listeners' licences to the blind. Probably every honorable member of the House has, at some time or another, directed my attention to the matter. All I can say at the moment is that it is not the practice to announce government policy in speaking to the motion for the adjournment of the House. When the Estimates for the Postmaster-General's Department are under consideration, a full statement will be made on this matter and on other related subjects. The honorable member for Wentworth made a slight error in saying that I had definitely promised that, when in March next it becomes no longer necessary for the Government to pay 3s. out of each listener's licence to Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, a reduction of 3s. would be made in listeners' licence-fees. I did not make a definite statement to that effect. I said that, when the Government was no longer under obligation to pay 3s. out of each listener's licence-fee to Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Limited, it would certainly reconsider the amount of the licence-fee. As the subject has not yet been considered by the Cabinet, it would be both premature and idle for me to make a definite statement on. it. At an appropriate time the Government's policy will be announced. I do not wish to say anything about the work of the Broadcasting Com- mission in the -preparation of broadcasting programmes, except that, in my opinion, and, I think, in the opinion of the public generally, the commission is doing excellent work, and is conducting its affairs efficiently and satisfactorily. I agree, of course, that every honorable gentleman, is entitled to his own opinion on this subject. I assure the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) that some misunderstanding has occurred in connexion with his appointment with the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons). I am sure that the right honorable gentleman did not intend to be in any way discourteous to the honorable member, and that he will, himself, confirm my statement that a misunderstanding has occurred. On the subject-matter raised by the honorable member, I suggest that he might with propriety and benefit interview the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Perkins). The Department of the Interior deals with the naturalization of aliens, and also with claims made by naturalized subjects for pensions. While I was Minister for the Interior, I had on several occasions to determine the course to be adopted in connexion with such applications. The honorable member may adopt that suggestion if he should feel so disposed, but in any case, his representations will be conveyed to the right honorable the Prime Minister who, I feel sure, will give them the fullest consideration. Question resolved in the affirmative. 3588 23:21:00 House adjourned at 11.21 p.m. 3588 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated': - 3588 3588 KF9 ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr A GREEN asked the Minister for Commerce, upon notice - What was the total amount paid by way of wheat bounty at 41/2d. per bushel for each of the States for the 1931-32 season? What was the total amount of bounty paid for each of the States to wheat-growers out of the 2s. 6d. per acre made available for the 1932-33 season, and what was the total amount paid out of this allowance to other primary industries, quoting the particular industries, and the amounts in each case? 3588 KV7 UAP 1 0 STEWART, Frederick Mr Stewart - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Under Part VI. of the Financial Relief Act 1932, the sum of £2,000,000 was appropriated for the purposes of financial assistance to the States in the provision of relief to wheat-growers in the States and in any territory. The following allocations were made : - These funds were provided for the assistance of wheat-growers only, and have been distributed by the States on the basis, generally speaking, of the acreage sown to wheat for the 1932-33 season. Some States utilized portion of the grant for the relief of necessitous growers. Under Part VII. of the act, the sum of £250,000 was appropriated to enable payments to be made to the States, by the Commonwealth, in respect of payments made by the States to primary producers, at the rate of 15s. per ton, of artificial manure used by such primary producers during the year ending the 30th November, 1933, in the production of any primary product except wheat. Payments of subsidy in the States, up to and including the 12th October, 1933, were as follows : - Financial assistance has been, and is being, rendered by payments of artificial manure subsidy in connexion with oats, barley, pasture improvement, fruit, lucerne, tobacco, sugar and numerous other primary products, but it is not possible, until the scheme is finalized, to prepare figures relating to the aggregate subsidy payments in respect of the various primary products. 3589 3589 KZR UAP 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White . - On the 13th October, the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) asked the following question, upon notice: - How many bushels of Australian maize were used, during the last year for which figures are available, in the production of (a) corn- flour, (b) glucose, and (c) other maize products? I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information: - Approximately 300,000 bushels; (b) approximately 370,000 bushels; (c) not known. 3589 3589 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons . - On the 12th October, the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) asked the following questions, upon notice: - Isit a fact that intimidatory tactics are being used by the present lessees of Cockatoo Dockyard against any one associated with trade unions by refusing to give them work? Is it a fact that cases are pending against the company in the Industrial Court for alleged breaches and flouting of Arbitration Court awards? Cockatoo Docks and Engineering Company has advised as follows: - All workmen employed by the company are members of the appropriate union. The companyis not aware of any cases that may be pending. To the best of the company's knowledge and belief, all Arbitration Court awards are being faithfully observed. 3589 3589 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - On the 12th October, the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) asked the following questions, upon notice: - Is it a fact that four boilers from dismantled war vessels weresold to NewZealand by the Cockatoo Engineering Company for £350 each and in it also a fact that this firm is receiving all the benefit from all the materials from these vessels? Has the Government received any payments from the company in respect of these ships; if so, how much? The replies to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - Cockatoo Docks and Engineering Company has advised that the company has not sold four boilers to New Zealand: One boiler has been sold to New Zealand for £200 f.o.b. steamer at Sydney. The sale of a second boiler at the same price to New Zealand is pending. The company receives only such benefit as has accrued from dismantled sloops since 1st March, 1933, in accordance with the arrangements made at the time of leasing the dockyard from that date. Previous experience over a number of years showed that the proceeds from sale of dismantled parts barely covered the cost of the recovery. The company, however, undertook tocomplete the work of dismantling sloops in return for the proceeds received from the sale of arisings, so that a certain measure of employment would he afforded to workmen. The Commonwealth Government has, through the Australian Commonwealth Shipping Board, been credited by the company up to the 30th September, 1933, with £572 in respect of disposals of arisings which had been taken from dismantled ships prior to the 28th February. 3589 3589 JWT UAP 1 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis . - On the 13th October, the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. E. J. Harrison) asked the following questions, upon notice: - Is it a fact that in 1917, after Captain T. P. Conway had performed meritorious service in responsible positions, an adverse and injurious entry was made on his records? Why, if such entry was justifiable, was it expunged after operating for fourteen years? I am now in a position to inform the honorable member as follows: - An entry in Captain Conway's records, relative to his not proceeding on active service abroad, was made on the 9th November, 1917. The entry was expunged in 1931 by direction of the then Minister for Defence subsequent to investigation of representations made by Captain Conway.