1938-11-02 15 1 2 REPS 1092 0 House of Representatives. 1938-11-02 Mr. Speaker. (Hon. G. J. Bell) took the chair at. 3 p.m., and read prayers. 1092 Miscellaneous Issue Of Writ 1092 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I desire to inform the House that it is my intention to issue a writ onThursday, the 10th instant, for the election of a memberto serve for the electoral division of Wakefield, in the State of South Australia, in the place of the HonorableC. A. S. Hawker, deceased. The dates in connexion with the election will he fixed as follows : - Issue of writ, Thursday the 10th November, 1938; nominations, Monday the 21st November, 1938 ; polling, Saturday the 10th December, 1938; return of writ, on or before Tuesday the 10th January, 1939. 1092 Motion 1092 Motion (by Mr. Lyons) - byleaveagreed to - Thatso muchof the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspendedas would prevent Notice of Motion No. 1 - Want of confidence in the Government - taking precedence of all other business until disposed of. Mr.CURTIN (Fremantle)3.2]. - I move - That, because of its lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. Opposition Members. - Hear, hear ! 1092 009FQ Fremantle 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - I think it can be taken for granted that the Government never did possess the confidence of honorable gentlemen who sit behind me, 1 believe it is now clear that it fails to hold the confidence of the people of Australia, and on their own declarations, it fails to hold the complete confidence of many honorable gentlemen who sit behind the Ministry.It also fails to establish a concert of mind in respect of urgent national problems on the part of Ministers themselves. As a government, it confronts Australia with an entire lack of either consistent or constructive leadership in respect of matters which are of vital importance to the public welfare and to public safety. Its lack of leadership is attested by declarations of Ministers themselves, notably those of the Deputy Leader of the numerically strongest party composing the Government, who within recent days has made a plea which can only be construed as evidence of the lack of something which above all things it was the obligation of the Government to supply. If leadership be lacking in Australia, it is because the Government has failed to furnish it. If there be need for better leadership than we have had, it is because the Government has given to us either weak or, as I fully believe, bad leadership. That the Government has no constructive outlook upon the great problems of the nation, is evidenced by statements which Ministers themselves have repeatedly made. I instance the announcement by the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) of the rejection of a certain monetary proposal submitted at a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers. In respect of that matter, the Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Hughes) came to the rescue, not of his colleague the Treasurer, but of that gentleman's antagonist, the Premier of New South Wales. 1093 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - He did nothing of the sort. 1093 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The Premier of New South Wales urged the adoption of a monetary policy which was not, and never has been, acceptable to the Treasurer during the whole period of his occupancy of that office. It is now almost certain that the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) is about to engage once again in that most popular pastime of his, the game of political musical chairs. The right honorable gentleman proposes to set the Government revolving around the chairs in the Cabinet room, and we shall discover that one, two, or three newcomers will occupy chairs to the exclusion of one, two, or three of their present occupants. This will be given to the country as evidence of a reconstruction of the Ministry. The Prime Minister has made very many reconstructions of the Ministry. As a matter of fact. I should say that, sitting behind him to-day, the number of his ex-Ministers almost totals the number of his present Ministers. We are once again to be treated to a. repetition of this sort of thing. I put it (o the country that no previous reconstruction of this Government represented a reconstruction in outlook or in programme so long as the senior Ministers continued to remain such. I regard it as a rather despicable piece of . political manoeuvring that, whenever the Government discovers that its hold on the country is weakening, two or three of its junior Ministers are selected as scapegoats for the impossible position in which the leadership of the Government has landed it. As one who lias a sense of sportsmanship, I regard the veiled attacks upon the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) by supporters of the Government, and I understand even connived at by members of the Government, as representing the latest and, I believe, the blackest chapter of unconcern for political principles on the part, of senior Ministers, .and a complete regard only for their own authority. The present Minister for Defence has held that portfolio for but a year, hut the programme which the holder of this office carries through must incontestably be the programme of the Government. Four of the senior Ministers - the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons), the Treasurer (Mr. Casey), the Attorney-General -(Mr. Menzies), and the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) - had another colleague who previously held the portfolio of Defence but who, owing to the wisdom of his electors, is no longer here. That gentleman returned from an Imperial Conference, and, with the support of the Prime Minister, announced a defence programme which was justified by the Government on the ground that, it was completely adequate to all the needs of Australia in respect of ensuring its safety, and also completely sound in the steps essential to preparedness which are implicit in any effective defence programme. The present Minister for Defence inherited that programme, but lie had not, been in office long when the Prime Minister announced a very extensive expansion of the programme, to cost £43,000,000 over a given period. Then came the great international crisis. Assurance after assurance was given to this House and to the country that the £43,000,000 programme embraced everything which the country could expect any Government to do in order to ensure the safety of Australia against any reasonable contingency that could be foreseen. But what do we find now? The international crisis has passed. The threatened danger is no longer as great as it was, for it must be apparent to everybody that the Munich pact has lessened the probability of a European war in the near future. With those lessened portents of war in Europe obviously any logical examination of the position in Australia must lead to increased reassurance here, for the dangers to Australia, I venture to say, are increased if Europe should be at war, when Great Britain is involved in such a war, but they are inevitably greatly reduced when the indications are that Europe has passed the prospect of war, and further, that there is less likelihood of Great Britain being involved in a European war. 1094 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - The honorable member is only looking at one thing. Mr.CURTIN.- I shall look at everything. If it were true, as the Government stated during the international crisis, that every step was being taken to protect Australia, and that the programme which had been envisaged was so sound that the people could have complete confidence in the measures which the Government had formulated, how comes it that immediately the international crisis is passed there is unloosed in Australia propaganda which suggests that what had been told to this Parliament was not accurate, and that, instead of an assurance that the defence organization of this country was as good as sound leadership could make it, the very contrary was the case? Now we are to contemplate far-reaching additions to the programme which this Parliament had submitted to it, and which, in broad principle, it approved. After the Imperial Conference one programme was advanced; very shortly afterwards that programme was elaborated : during the international crisis we were told that the programme arranged was adequate, complete and soundly based ; but, now, for political reasons, the Government deems it once more desirable to evict certain Ministers and make room for other members of the parties opposite, in order to satisfy the clamour of its own supporters. The Government, as a matter of fact, has brought the country to the verge of war hysteria in order merely to provide the requisite atmosphere to enable certain changes to be made in the Ministry - changes which, when all is said and done, are not changes in the organic character of the Ministry and will merely have the effect of making scapegoats of certain Ministers who have not been responsible for the leadership of the Government, and whose roles have been relatively subordinate, although, maybe, important in themselves. The Ministers who are to be sacrificed have not been responsible for the national leadership which we have been told on the authority of the Attorney-General himself has not been satisfactory because the results do not attest to satisfactory leadership. Upon that very point alone it must be clear that the manoeuvres, the changes of front, and the inspired newspaper articles which have appeared in certain newspapers, with their suggestions for a stupendous increase of the already colossal expenditure which Australia is making, are of such a character that the Prime Minister finds it imperative to do things which he apparently previously was opposed to doing. These changes are to be made merely to placate certain powerful interests which stand behind this Government. Apparently to satisfy these interests the Prime Minister and the Minister for Commerce, who are the leaders of the parties which form this Government, are once again, metaphorically speaking, to throw some Christians to the lions. The Prime Minister's tenure of office seems to demand that more or less annually he must sacrifice some of those who servo in his Ministry. One can regularly see in what is known as the ex-Ministers' alley justification for that statement. There will be new recruits in the ex-Ministers' alley next week. Then, again, what kind of leadership has this Government given in respect of the great national problems of the economic organization of Australia and the social order of the people? It has not, in any respect, developed a sound national conscience in Australia on these important subjects. It has given no leadership at all. In the newspapers which support this Government repeated declarations have been made recently which can be crystallized in the statement that the Government is suffering from both tiredness and old age and is unable to grapple with the problems which face Australia at present. 1094 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - The Leader of the Opposition has no newspapers to support him ! Mr.CURTIN.- The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) would not be here if some newspapers had not sent him here! The difference between us is that I am here in spite of news- papers, and he is here because of them. The newspapers always tell him what he has to say. The economic position of Australia is far from being satisfactory, and until' it is satisfactory there can be no guarantee of the capacity of Australia to develop requisite measures to ensure its integrity if an attack should be made upon it. It is upon the industrial and social conditions of the people that this nation depends for its ability to devise measures essential to its security. Because certain interests represented by those who sit behind the. Government realize this, they are seeking to throw suspicion on the patriotism of the Australian people and are declaring that voluntary service for the defence of this country is not sufficient. My first answer to such statements is that a decently well-managed Australia would not lack patriotic Australians. My second retort is that resort to compulsion to defend the country implies that those who would be compelled to serve have not been justly treated by the country. Therefore that policy partakes, in my opinion, more of the practice of the totalitarian states than that of democratic states. It would, in fact, appear to be an extraordinary contradiction in principles for the country to resort to dictatorial methods rather than democratic methods in order to defend itself. 1095 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Sir Charles Marr - The Fisher Government favoured compulsory military training. 1095 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Well, we object to it. Compulsory military training is no longer a part of the programme of the Labour party. The present Prime Minister was a member of the Government which suspended compulsory military training. 1095 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - The Scullin Government not only suspended compulsory military training, but also cut the defence vote to the bone. Mr.CURTIN. - The Labour party is not the only party in the history of this Parliament which, at times, has reduced the expenditure on defence. Surely the honorable member must realize that defence expenditure must be viewed in the light of the conditions which prevail from time to time. That is the logical answer to this interjection. In 1931, when the Scullin Government reduced the defence vote, it was acting in accordance with the practically universal tendency of governments. The honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) apparently does not know that some time earlier than that the present Minister for Commerce, as Leader of the Country party in this Parliament, was not satisfied with the proposal to reduce the defence estimates by a certain amount, as the Opposition desired to do on that occasion. He wanted a much greater reduction. The honorable member for Wentworth was not in the Parliament at that time and apparently he has not made himself acquainted with the political background of the subject. 1095 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - I know the Government that reduced the defence expenditure. 1095 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Even the Bruce-Page Government reduced expenditure on defence. Defence expenditure must depend entirely upon the conditions which prevail in the world from time to time. Obviously that must be the position. I say that any increase of defence expenditure after the Munich Pact so far as Australia is concerned appears to me to be an utterly unjustifiable and hysterical piece of panic propaganda. That is what I say in respect of the alarmist statements that have been made. There has been a great abuse of candour on the part of the Government in respect of the statements previously made in this Parliament with regard to the effectiveness of our defence programme, and to the adequacy of the provision made - for this Parliament has voted every penny that the Government has asked for in order to put the defences of this country into shape. We have certainly as an Opposition said that a great deal of this money was, in our opinion, being frittered away, and that a good deal of it would go in high profits to the profiteers. We have asked for a closer scrutiny of the details of the expenditure, but, in the main, the Prime Minister and the Minister for Defence know that this Parliament has given to the Government the defence provision which the Government sought in order to put our defences into shape. 1096 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - " Mark your own ticket." Mr.CURTIN. - That is so; they marked their own ticket, but they have now discarded that ticket in order to write a new ticket, much larger in volume, and I venture to say,not sufficiently justified to this Parliament or to ' the people. I believe that the greater part of this hysteria is based merely on a desire to provide a background for political manoeuvring. 1096 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - Is not our policy also the policy of the British Labour party? Mr.CURTIN.- The BritishLabour party has supported the armament programme of Great Britain, and that is the programme which is being carried through. This Parliament has already had before it the financial statements of the Treasurer covering the defence requirements of this year. It has also bad several statements by the Minister for Defence in exposition of the details of the defence provision. The works section from revenue has been voted by this Parliament. Now we are told that the works programme is to be greatly augmented. 1096 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - Who has told the honorable member that? 1096 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The great newspapers, and they tell us that the Minister for Defence will not hold his portfolio very long. I wish the Minister for Defence to realize that I am not making any personal reflections upon him in the course of this speech. He inherited this programme from his predecessor a year ago. The three years' experience of the junk in the Air Force and all the rest of the inadequacies in respect of Australian defence are not his responsibility, nor is he culpable in connexion with it. He inherited the legacy from the previous Minister for Defence, a legacy for which the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General, the Treasurer and the Minister for Commerce cannot be exonerated from complete responsibility. I object absolutely to the Minister for Defence being made to carry the whole of the odium of the criticism levelled against the defence programme in recent weeks. I say, that if the Country party allows the honorable gentleman to be made the scapegoat of this newspaper political intrigue, the last elements of political decency have evaporated from it, and he cannot accept another porfolio without loss of dignity and personal prestige. The other day the Government, in order to make it clear that its conception of defence and of the requirements of the nation had not been fully put to this Parliament, called a conference of State Premiers. The Premiers came here and propositions were made to them. What were those propositions? In broad outline they were that the Premiers of the States should forgo certain provision that had been made for them out of loan funds for works in order that that provision should be allocated to works which would be selected as more appropriate in building up the defence organization of the Commonwealth. Of itself that may have been a good or a bad proposition, but at least the Premiers were entitled to know specifically, and the Commonwealth ought to have been in a position to tell them, what works the Commonwealth Government had in mind which should be the subject of arrangements with the States, so that the States would employ their loan funds on these works as against works which appeared in the Estimates of the State governments themselves as submitted to Parliament, That was not done. The press made it clear that the principle which the Prime Minister put up to the Premiers was that the Commonwealth proposed to ask the States to transfer some part of their loan works programmes from works they had already in mind to those which had a defence significance. What were those works? Leadership is said to be an obligation of the Commonwealth Government; butdid the Commonwealth Government give a specification to the conference of Premiers as to what those works were? Not at all. I believe what it contemplated doing was to set up some sort of investigatory body to make recommendations either to the Commonwealth Government or to the Premiers, or to both. Quite obviously defence is the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government whether it be in connexion with equipment, services or works. To place the defence of Australia on a proper basis is a matter for formulation, not by the State Premiers, but by the Commonwealth Government. The Commonwealth Government called that conference. It is obvious that it did so hurriedly. I fully believe that the conference would not have dealt with that subject but for the newspaper clamour, and the Government yielded to that newspaper clamour in order to convene a conference, premature in point of time because the Commonwealth Government had not formulated proposals which it could submit to the Premiers of the States; it had merely formulated a general principle. What, in effect was said to the Premiers was, " We want to take from your works programme for defence works yet to be discovered. Will you agree to the principle of making this money for works which you have in mind available for works which some day in the near future, when we are advised, we shall have in mind?" 1097 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir Earle Page - That is not so. 1097 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - I have read the official report and statements of the Premiers themselves. 1097 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir Earle Page - I can quote the statement of one of the Premiers to the contrary. 1097 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The right honorable gentleman knows that the Premiers went away declaring that the conference was a failure. He also knows that, because some of the Premiers are in political agreement with the party which supports the Commonwealth Government, it was necessary to provide some sort of facesaving resolution. Otherwise, the public would have been fully informed regarding the complete incompetence of the Commonwealth Government, and its failure to submit positive proposals to the States. That conference would not have been the fiasco it was if the Prime Minister had been in his place in Canberra, instead of the right honorable Minister for Commerce, who acted in his place. 1097 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Sir Charles Marr - The Leader of the Opposition did not- 1097 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - I have a suspicion that the honorable member who has been evicted from the Ministry, and who is to be joined shortly by someone to sit beside him in the role of distinguished ex-Minister, is face to face with this proposition: Everything the Government is doing, or contemplates doing, either in respect of defence, or works, or monetary programme, will be more in line with the policy of my predecessor, the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), than with any political principle that he has ever advocated during the whole course of his career. We are to find money for defence. The Treasurersays that we can find whatever money is required. The Premier of New South Wales who was to come into thisParliament and straighten things out, but who, apparently, has "missed the bus ", says that there can be a rearrangement of monetary policy to ensure that the requisite provision will be made for works and services, and he is after a £10,000,000 railway scheme for New South Wales, as a contribution to defence. 1097 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Sir Charles Marr - Not enough. 1097 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Perhaps not, accordingto the honorable member, but that is what the Premier is asking for, and he has outlined his monetary policy. I find that our distinguished counsellor and adviser, who, from time to time, comes to the rescue of the Commonwealth with advice published in the columns of the Melbourne Herald - I refer to Professor Copland - says, " Of course it can be clone." It can be done for defence. It is even possible to have an issue of credit for defence, but not to build houses for the people, to build hospitals for the people, or to build schools for the people. If there is to be an alteration of the country's monetary policy, and we find the right honorable gentleman, the Minister for External Affairs, agreeing with the Premier of New South Wales, I wonder how those directing the policies of the Sydney Morning Herald, the Melbourne Herald, and the Melbourne Argus, can justify their present attitude when they look back upon the things they wrote, or caused to be written, in 1930 and 1931. Quite obviously, the Government contemplates a very large addition to the defences of the country. I believe that it is already committed, or will very shortly be committed, to the acquisition of a battleship, which will cost many millions of pounds - I cannot say how many. This money can be provided only in two ways. It. can come out of the revenues of the country. or it can be borrowed, unless the Prime Minister scraps everything he has said on the subject of monetary policy. Where does the Government stand in respect of leadership in this matter? It is true that it appointed a royal commission to investigate monetary matters, and it is also true that the Government has made periodic announcements of its intention to bring down legislation to give effect to some of the recommendations of that commission, but nothing has been done, and, in my opinion, nothing will be done. All that the Government proposes to do is to make a reshuffle of portfolios. It will then claim that there is a new Government, that it has wiped out the last year of inertia, stalemate and confusion, and it will ask the people for a new lease of life because it has put a new label on itself. This label will have been earned, not by the displacement of the senior Ministers, of the Prime Minister, the Minister for Commerce, the Treasurer, and the Attorney-General, but by the displacement of some of the junior members of the Government. The four Ministers whom I have mentioned have been the leaders of the Australian Government, and any criticism directed against the Government's leadership by the newspapers must be accepted bythose gentlemen, and not by the junior Ministers, or the Ministers holding the less important portfolios, among whom I include that well-known firebrand, the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White). I would not hold him accountable for the declarations of policy of the Government, however much he might like to be responsible for declarations of policy. What is it that Australia needs? It needs an assurance of work for the people. This means that the Government must embark upon enterprises to provide employment for at least 100,000 persons who at present are out of work, and also for a great number of other persons who, despite the activities of the State Governments, have been only intermittently employed over a long period, so that they and their families have not been able to enjoy a decent standard of living. If we are to make demands upon the patriotism of the Australian people, the first necessity is to ensure that they shall be em ployed and enjoying a reasonable living standard. There are those who say that useful people ought not to be uselessly engaged, but the Government has repeatedly passed to the States the whole responsibility for the employment of the people. The latest fiasco was brought about because the States, which were doing all that they humanly could with the resources at their disposal to employ the people, were asked to surrender a part of their funds so that the Commonwealth might spend the money on defence equipment. 1098 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - That is not so. 1098 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Well, on defence works then. I have here, on the authority of the Minister forDefence, a schedule showing wherethe defence works are to be undertaken, and the amount of money to be expended in each of the various States. From this it is evident that by far the greater part of the expenditure is to be in the two States with the greatest population, and that Queensland, Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania will share in the expenditure only to a trifling degree. Yet the Premiers of the States were asked to give up their loan funds, which were to be employed on road making, water supplies, &c, in order that the Commonwealth Treasurer might have more resources at his disposal for defence works. From the point of view of the Premiers, this meant that, unless they knew what the proposed Commonwealth works were, there was every indication that there would be less money for them to spend on works, and greater demands would be made upon them to provide sustenance for those out of employment. Clearly enough the Premiers of those three States would have nothing whatever to do with the proposal. They agreed to what I have called a face-saving resolution. 1098 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - They agreed to all the principles. 1098 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Principles ! There is no Australian Premier, no Leader of the Opposition, no man of common sense in Australia, who would support the principle that works requisite for the defence of this country should be prohibited from being undertaken. If the honorable gentleman were to say to the Opposition that some other provision for the defence of this country was needed, as he has often said in this chamber, he would get it. As I have already said, he has had every penny for which he has asked; but the Opposition claims the right to criticize details, and expects a greater exposition of what are the requirements of defence than has been given to it. The Government has failed to give us what we have asked for; nevertheless we have voted the money sought in the appropriation measures that have been placed before us, and the responsibility of seeing that it has been wisely expended is the Government's. The committee of the whole House is not in a position to scrutinize the details of the Estimates. I believe that not only the Premiers of Australia, but also the whole of the people of Australia would give a complete patriotic response if they were told frankly by the Minister what it was thought it was necessary to do in order to ensure the safety of this country. 1099 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - They have done that. 1099 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Very good, they have. I say to the Prime Minister and to the Minister for Defence, " How comes it, if you have the full confidence of the people of Australia to do everything that you deem proper for the defence of this nation, that you have completely changed the broad outline of your defence policy " ? 1099 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - There has been no change. 1099 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - When the previous Minister for Defence came back from the Imperial Conference, he announced a programme that would cost so much for years to come. He was given the money. Then there was an elaboration of that programme which was to cost £43,000,000. That was the second change in the programme. Does the honorable gentleman say that he does not contemplate that the programme will be again departed from? Is he or the Prime Minister willing to say now that the £43,000,000 programme represents the total financial requirements of Australia so that it can be safe? 1099 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - The expenditure will be expanding or contracting, according to circumstances. 1099 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - According to circumstances! There is a declaration! What alteration of the circumstances has occurred since the programme was announced that makes it now inadequate ? That is the question I put to the Government - I put it also to the people of Australia. My own answer is that at the time the £43,000,000 programme was announced, the international situation was disquieting. There was a possibility of conflict in Europe. But, the Prime Minister himself has taken full responsibility for assuring this Parliament that the efforts of Mr. Chamberlain, and indeed, the efforts of this Government, have contributed towards saving Europe from immediate war. 1099 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - For how long? 1099 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - From the war which would have happened a month ago but for the signing of the Munich Pact. Am I now to believe that it was merely a piece of "flam "? Does the Minister for Trade and Customs suggest " that? He cannot have it both ways. However, Mr. Chamberlain, in agreeing to the Munich Pact, agreed to a set formula which would avert war between Great Britain and Germany. 1099 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - Is that the only danger? 1099 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The honorable member apparently disregards the circumspection which should mark every utterance in this national Parliament. He obviously invites me to contemplate some other power attacking Australia. I refuse to be so stupid as to do that in this national Parliament, but my answer is that any other power which would seek to ravage Australia would have less temptation and less opportunity to do so if war in Europe were not probable; and as war in Europe is less probable, according to Mr. Chamberlain and to our Prime Minister than we feared some little time ago, I say that every proposition that occurs to the Minister for Trade and Customs appears to be less credible now than it would have appeared to be two months ago. Because of that, I ask myself how comes it that the Treasurer and the Minister for Trade and Customs can apparently say that the country is in fact in greater danger to-day than it was two months ago? What evidence do they propose to give to justify that declaration ? Unless they are able to show better testimony than I venture to say can be gathered from an examination of the international situation, the danger which threatened has been averted. Otherwise the truth must be that the defence expenditure which, in the last five years, and up to the end of 1939, will total practically £53,000,000, has been wasted. The honorable gentlemen must really mean that the financial provision of £53,000,000 which this Parliament has made to this Government for the defence of Australia has not produced any result commensurate with that vast outlay of money. If the Minister for Trade and Customs would have us believe that we are in greater danger than we were, although I refuse to believe that, because the other week the Prime Minister told us that we were safe; the real truth must be that the expenditure on the defence of this country, authorized by this Parliament, has failed to make provision for the defence of Australia and, therefore, the £36,000,000 voted in recent years, and the £16,750,000 which is to be voted this year, making a total of practically £53,000,000 since 1933, has, in fact, been wasted owing to bad administration, bad leadership, and failure to have a constructive grasp over the essentials for Australian defence. The money has been thrown away because the Government has relied on theories of collective security and imperial co-operation insteadof using the money as the foundation upon which to build a policy of self-reliance in Australian defence. I know that there can be no argument whatever that self-reliance would cost more than imperial co-operation. That is palpable. Arguments advanced as to how strategically Australia can best defend itself are not relevant to this debate other than to show that the Government has changed its whole outlook. If it is to embark upon this programme of defence works and services, as the Prime Minister has said that it is, it is because the Government has forsaken reliance upon the possibility or probability of aid coming to us in time to be of advantage. If that be true, honorable members opposite must apologize for the sneers and jibes that they have made about the programme advanced by this side. I conclude by saying that it is not for me to establish that the Government has lost the confidence of the Opposition, because it never had it. 1100 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - The Government is still in office. 1100 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Does the honorable gentleman assure me that it is going to continue as it is now constituted? 1100 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - Why not? 1100 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - Why . the series of troubled brows which one sees on Ministers walking out of the cabinet room; the discomfiture on the part of honorable gentlemen as they march from the party rooms, indicate that the Government, which has never had the support of the Opposition, now doubtfully holds the support of those who came here to keep it in office and, positively, has lost the support of the newspapers that brought it into being. The. Government has the confidence neither of those newspapers nor of the people of Australia. 1100 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - Mr. Speaker- Government Members. - Hear, hear! 1100 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I thought, when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) gave notice of his motion of want of confidence in the Government, particularly in view of the basis of it, that there would be something to which I should be called upon to reply. With all due respect to the honorable gentleman, I am afraid that he has not succeeded in putting before this Parliament and the people of this country any case that would justify lack of confidence in the Government - in its policy, or in its leadership. When 1 speak of leadership, I am thinking not of myself, but of the policy which, for the last seven years, has been put before the people of this country by the Government of which I have the honour to be a member. The honorable gentleman has made a great deal of the fact that, from time to time, there have been changes in the personnel of the Government that I happen to lead. 1100 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - They have not been sufficient. 1100 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - That may be. I agree with the honorable member that my predecessor, the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), set a standard in this regard with which we have not been able to catch up ; in his two years - of office, he had no fewer than nineteen members in his Government. I have not succeeded in approaching that figure in my seven years of office; I have yet a long way to go, but I may he able to achieve that high standard before I come to the end of my period. The story told by the Leader of the Opposition can be summed up as a protest against the present expenditure upon defence and a plea for the reduction of the defences of Australia. The honorable gentleman suggested that the Government had changed its defence policy many times. There have been no changes of the principles involved, but plans have been varied from time to time, after consultation with expert advisers. We have not been conservative, but have been prepared from time to time to review the situation and, when it has been pointed out that there was need for expediting or expanding, we have acted as sane and sensible men would act in accepting such advice. Because of the circumstances with which we were confronted, we have been compelled to ask for greater expenditure on the defence of this country, in order that we might give some security to the people. The Leader of the Opposition has said that the responsibility for the defence policy rests not with my colleague, the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), but with senior Ministers of ray Government. I agree with him, and carry the matter further by saying that I am prepared, as the spokesman of the Cabinet, to accept full responsibility in respect of these matters. No apology is needed for the attempts of the Government to place the defences of Australia on a sound basis. Nothing that the Leader of the Opposition has said to-day has thrown any doubt upon the real merits of the defence policy put into operation by the Government. Normally, T should have taken the opportunity to place before this Parliament and the people of this country an outline of the Government's programme up to date, and I thank the Leader of the Opposition for enabling me to place the matter in clearer perspective before the people of Australia than would otherwise be possible. 1101 KRE 0 0 SHEEHAN, Thomas Mr Sheehan - The Government's policy will be altered to-morrow. 1101 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If it is, the alteration will be in the direction of greater effectiveness. We are not to be judged as supermen; we are only human, and have faults. The judgment to-day is between our policy, together with our personal defects, which we do not hesitate to admit, and the policy of members of the Opposition. The motion of the Leader of the Opposition, insofar as it relates to the defence policy of the Government - and it is the defence policy to which it refers-- 1101 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - Oh, no ; it also embraces works and services, and other matters. 1101 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - It relates mainly to defence, and that is a subject which is of vital concern to Australia to-day. I shall endeavour to keep the debate on as high a plane as possible, and not allow it to descend to a party political basis. I shall have to make certain comparisons, but I shall do so merely in order that the people may have an opportunity to judge between the policy of the Government and that of the Opposition. The first aspect to be- considered is the record of the Government, its policy for the present and the future, and the alternative offered by the policy of the Opposition. Before stating what the Government has done and is doing, let me outline briefly the state of Australia's defences when my Government first came into office; its achievements will then stand out in greater relief. -May I say frankly, honestly, and I think fairly, that when I state the position which existed when my Government assumed office I shall not be reflecting upon honorable members opposite who were responsible for that position, because their actions were dictated by the financial exigencies of the day. 1101 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - Was not the right honorable gentleman equally responsible? 1101 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I was not. I wish to show the progress in regard to defence that has been made by the Government, without reflecting upon the Government of that day. 1101 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - The same thing could be said of the governments of Great Britain, France, and Germany. 1101 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I hope that the honorable gentleman will exercise patience while I deal with the position which existed when we took over. As I proceed, I shall endeavour to show what we have done, and the progress that has been made. The ships in commission in the sea-going squadron had been reduced by two destroyers, two submarines, and one surveying ship, the submarines having been transferred to the Royal Navy. The strength of the permanent naval personnel had also been reduced by 859. It is important to bear in mind that it takes longer to train men than to build ships. The fleet training had been curtailed, and the reserve stocks of fuel and stores had been depleted. Reductions had been made of the personnel of the auxiliary services, and the period of training of the naval reserves. Looking at the position of the Army, we find that, when universal training was suspended in 1929, the strength of the Citizen Forces was 43,700. The citizen army was practically abolished, and a new one was created by voluntary enlistment. The establishment was fixed at 35,000, but the actual enlistments were restricted to 30,000. Camps of continuous training were suspended, and reductions were made in the strength of the Permanent Forces. The Army was thus dealt a severe blow, which affected its morale and reduced its efficiency to a marked degree. Do not for a moment believe that I am suggesting that the government of the day could have avoided doing what it did. I was a member of that government for a portion of its period of office. 1102 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Did not the government of the day act upon advice which was tendered to it? 1102 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - My memory is not good enough to enable me to say whether or not that is correct, but I do not controvert the statement. 1102 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - "Will the right honorable gentleman deny that the advisers of the Defence Department told us to take the steps which we took? 1102 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I could not deny it, and if the right honorable gentleman, says that that is so, I accept his statement without reservation. At different times Cabinet has, perhaps, had different advice tendered to it. Reductions were made of the permanent personnel of the Air Force, entries of cadets were suspended, and the numbers eligible for pilots' courses were reduced. The establishment of the citizen air force was reduced, and the training curtailed. The Salmond scheme, which had been adopted by the Bruce-Page Government as the basis of Australia's air defence, was not proceeded with. The average annual defence expenditure during the five-year programme of the Bruce-Page Government had been £6,700,000, but under the succeeding Labour Government the figure dropped to £3,200,000. It was at this stage that the Government which I led assumed office. Defence having been reduced to a dangerous degree, restoration was necessary before we could engage in any scheme of expansion. The foundations had to be re-laid in order that we might rebuild. The following defence expenditure will show how my Government discharged its responsibility. In 1933-34 the expenditure was £4,157,000. 1102 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - General Joseph to the rescue ! 1102 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The association of these cheap remarks with a big national question I am sure will appeal to the people of Australia. The expenditure in subsequent years was - The estimate for the first instalment, in 1938-39, of a three-year programme to cost £43,000,000, is £"16,796,000. 1102 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - And no enemy in sight ! 1102 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) can never see an enemy. I hope that there will never be an enemy to see, but we must prepare for the time when an enemy may come. We cannot rest on a guess that an enemy will never come. I now turn to the subject of naval defence. I put these facts before the House to show what the Government has done to give the public some sense of security. Honorable members interjecting, Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).I must request honorable members to cease interjecting. 1103 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I ask honorable members to give me an opportunity to place the facts before the public. 1103 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - What about the battleships from abroad? 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) must not interject again ! 1103 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - On completion of the present programme the following increases will have been made in our naval strength- The honorable member for Hunter interjecting, 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) has interjected on a number of occasions this afternoon. He must not interject again. 1103 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - In submitting these facts to the House I have no desire to make contrasts to the disadvantage of any one.. This great national subject should be considered in such a way as to make co-operation by both sides of the House possible. After I have indicated what is being done, I intend to make an appeal to the Parliament to co-operate with the Government in strengthening our defences. 1103 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Why do not members on the Government side of the House keep quiet ? 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) is quite out of order. I warn him that he must not interject. If he continues to do so I shall take other action. 1103 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - Upon the completion of cur present programme the following increases will have been made to our naval defences: - Cruisers - Strength of squadron increased by three six-inch vessels ; Australia and Canberra modernized; conversion of Adelaide to oil-burning. Four locally constructed sloops. Permanent sea-going personnel increased by 2,950. Local seaward defences provided for principal harbours. These comprise booms, three boom defence vessels and other devices for protection against submarines and minelayers. Increased oil storage and reserves of naval stores and ammunition. Strategical naval wireless stations at Canberra and Darwin. 1103 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Where is the work being done? 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I warn the honorable member for Ballarat that I shall name him if he interjects again. 1103 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If the honorable member studies the details that I have given he will see that a good deal of local work is involved. 1103 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Where is it being done ? 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member for Ballarat must apologize to the Chair for his disobedience; otherwise I shall name him immediately. 1103 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - In deference to you, Mr. Speaker, I apologize. 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member has been called to order severaltimes and he has actually defied the Chair. 1103 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green - What about the honorable member for Barton? 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green) is distinctly disorderly. I warn honorable members that I shall not tolerate further misbehaviour. There have been interjections from both sides of the House, and they must cease. 1103 JUQ 0 0 CLARK, Joseph Mr Clark - You want to wake up ! 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I name the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Clark). 1103 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - May I make an appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, to give the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Clark) an opportunity to withdraw? I am quite sure that he did not intend to be personally offensive to you in any way. I do not wish to make any reflections-- 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! 1103 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - All I should like to say, sir, is that the atmosphere in the House has been responsible for a good deal that has taken place. 1103 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I shall not disregard the plea of the Leader of the Opposition. The honorable member for Darling is not usually offensive. I have warned honorable members on both sides of the House on several occasions, and I expect them to heed the warning. In the circumstances I shall ask the Prime Minister not to take the usual action. 1103 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - I thank you, sir. 1104 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Will the Prime Minister explain what he meant when he said " three six-inch vessels " ? 1104 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I was speaking about guns, of course. When we speak of eightinch cruisers we mean cruisers with eight-inch guns, and so on. The policy of the Government has been to carry put its defence works in Australia, as far as possible. I make that remark in reply to the interjections of the honorable member for Ballarat. 1104 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - How much of the work has been done? 1104 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I suggest to the honorable member for Ballarat that if he cannot remain quiet it would be better for him to retire from the chamber. He apparently cannot control himself. 1104 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I now come to the subject of land defences. In the case of the army the following increases will have been made when the present programme has been completed - Fixed coast defences completed at the main ports. Anti-aircraft defences provided for main centres. Ammunition, modern armament and equipment provided for field army. Royal Military College expanded, Command and Staff School established, and other measures taken for improved training. The personnel of the Permanent Military Forces will have been increased by 2,140, mainly for manning fixed coast and anti-aircraft defences, additionalinstructors, and the Darwin mobile garrison. Dealing with air defences, I remind the House that when this Government assumed office in 1932, nothing had been done to implement the Salmond scheme which had been adopted by the Bruce Page Government in 1929. The Bruce Page Government went out of office in that year, and, mainly' because of financial circumstances, nothing was done from that time until after this' Government came into office to give effect to the Salmond scheme. Sir John Salmond had recommended that the first part of the scheme be completed by 1937, and this Government, in spite of the delay that had occurred, had overtaken the arrears by June of that year. The completion of Part II. of the scheme within the next three years is provided for in the present programme. The number of squadrons will then have been increased from two to seventeen, with auxiliary units such as flying training schools and similar establishments. In terms of first-line aircraft, this means an increase from 30 to 198, with reserves in proportion. The permanent personnel will have been increased by' 4,560. The Government's advisers consider that the increase provided for in the strength of the air force is the maximum that can be developed in the next three years, having regard to the extensive ground organization to be provided and the personnel to be trained. The aircraft industry has been established in Australia by the encouragement given to it by this Government. I may say, in amplification of the reply I have already given to the honorable member for Ballarat, that the Government has placed an order for 100 aircraft. I shall deal, later, with deliveries from overseas. Under the Government's policy for the development of civil aviation, our expanding resources of this nature are providing a valuable adjunct to air defence. In accordance with its policy for making Australia self-contained in the production of munitions, the Government's programme, when completed, will have provided for the modernization and extension of existing factories and the manufacture of new types of munitions. These include - Anti-aircraft gun factory for 3-in. and 4.5-in. guns. Addition to gunmanufacturing plant. Bren machine gun factory. Reconstructed Small Arms Ammunition Factory and new factory for anti-aircraft brass cartridge cases. Tool-room and plant for naval 2- pounder brass cartridge cases. New T.N.T. factory and new factory for filling explosives into gun ammunition at Explosive Factory. New naval cordite factory. New projectile factory. Additional laboratories, proof ranges and magazines. All these activities, as honorable members must realize, not only increase and improve the defences of the country, but also increase the opportunities available to our people for employment. The demands of modern warfare for munitions require that industry, and establishments such as railway workshops, should be organized to supplement the capacity of government factories in an emergency. An export committee with an advisory panel of leaders of industry has been created for this work and provided with a staff of technical investigators. A sum of £1,000,000 has been allotted for industrial organization. I have already stated that, from time to time, investigations are being made with the object of ascertaining to what proportion, if any, our defence activities should be accelerated, and the Government is doing its best to ensure that effective action shall be taken in this respect. 1105 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr Mahoney - Will the removal of the Sandy Bay rifle range be included in the Government's programme? 1105 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - For the sake of Hobart [ may hope so, but I am afraid that I cannot say definitely. In my national broadcast on the Government's defence programme, on the 24th March last, I said in conclusion: - The progress will bo reviewed continuously by the Government and the Council of Defence, mid the programme will .be considered flexible, either to be increased or reduced according to the trend of the international situation. The Leader of the Opposition referred to this point and I shall have something to say upon it later. As the result of a careful review of the defence position during the recent crisis, the Government has decided that certain parts of the programme which would normally not be fulfilled until the second and third years, shall be accelerated. It has also been decided that the programme shall be further expanded. This has been engaging the full attention of the Government and its advisers for the last four weeks. We are at present in consultation with our expert advisers in regard to this matter and we shall take the public, and, of course, Parliament, into our confidence on the subject in due time. 1105 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - Will this necessitate larger financial provision than that already made? 1105 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If it. does, Parliament will have to face the situation. If the recommendations of our expert advisers are acceptable to the Government, the responsibility will fall upon it to make the necessary financial provision. In the meantime the Government has taken important decisions on the urgent matters of man-power for the Army and aircraft for the Air Force. Army policy under the development programme to date has been based on the following priorities : first, the training of leaders and staffs; secondly, the provision of the necessary equipment and stores to enable the Army to function efficiently; and thirdly, the provision of trained personnel to handle this equipment and also to enable the necessary staffs to be trained. When the new programme was adopted last March it was announced that the experts considered the most pressing need was to strengthen the material side of the Army, while at the same time raising the efficiency of the existing forces to the highest degree possible. The Government added that it would keep the man-power position constantly under review. The military advisers to the Government have now intimated that, in view of the profound change in the world situation indicated by recent events, they are strongly of the opinion that the provision of trained personnel in increased numbers should have equal priority with the training of leaders and staffs, and the provision of equipment and stores. The Leader of the Opposition said, to-day, that there has been a settlement of the difficulties in Europe, and that, therefore, the position was easier for Australia. Let us hope that this is true, and that all that has been said on this aspect of" the subject will be realized. The bringing together 'of the leaders of certain European countries may give us some security for some years a.head; and it is the fervent hope of honorable members on both sides of the House that this will be so, but we have no real guarantee that some incident may not occur which will lead to a further crisis. A careful consideration of the recent crisis by those who have the duty to advise the Government on these matters revealed that if a similar situation arises again we cannot count upon the same length of time to prepare for the emergency. In spite of what has been done in Europe, if some breach of the peace occurs a state of emergency may develop very rapidly. The military advisers of the Government have reviewed the advice they have given to it, and have raised the question of the desirability of increased personnel iti the military forces'. The Government has adopted the voluntary system, in Australia as left to it by its predecessors. We still hope that that system will do all that is necessary for Australian defence, and that the manhood of this country will respond to the appeal to train in order that they may be prepared to meet an emergency such as that to which the Leader of the Opposition and I, myself, have referred. By such means it is hoped the men of military age in this country will be able to take their place for the defence of their own country and its hearths and homes, and not for the purpose of aggression against any other country. The Government proposes to make an intensive drive immediately to bring enlistment in the militia forces up to a strength of 70,000. It is hoped that volunteers will be forthcoming now that the urgent necessity for adequate man-power is realized. Full co-operation by the people and by all political parties is necessary to reach this total, if the voluntary system is to be retained. Honorable members opposite believe in the voluntary system; they believe it will serve the purposes of Australian defence. I, therefore, appeal to them to assist the Government in this drive for increased -personnel on the voluntary basis. If the voluntary basis is to survive and is to render the service necessary for the defence of this country in time of emergency, it is necessary to secure the co-operation, of not only honorable members on both sides of this House, 'hut also every section of the community. 1106 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander - If the appeal fails will the Government introduce a compulsory system of military training? 1106 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If the appeal fails it may he because honorable members opposite will not have thrown their weight behind the effort which the Government is making. I do not desire to make this a party political question; it is too important a matter for that. Mr. Frost.Then why Maine the Opposition if the appeal fails? 1106 F4O ALP; UAP from 1931 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I believe that the success of the appeal is largely in the hands of the employers of this country. Only by unity of effort can it succeed. The Government has taken this decision with a feeling of confidence that our democracy is prepared to demonstrate that it can be voluntarily organized for national service. The vital question of the strength of our citizen army is a definite challenge to the manhood of Australia to demonstrate the service they are prepared to render to maintain inviolate our democratic rights and our social and economic standards, and to ensure that our land shall remain unscathed by war. One of the handicaps under the voluntary system which has detracted from the efficiency of the forces has been the difficulty of volunteers obtaining leave from their employment to attend camps, In connexion with this aspect the Government wishes to acknowledge the co-operative attitude of many employers, who have approached this question in a very public-spirited way, and have not only facilitated the attendance of their employees at camp, but have also continued their pay, or made up their military pay to their normal civil wages. However, by no means have all employers taken this attitude. The success or otherwise of the Government's proposal to increase the militia forces to 70,000 is largely in the hands of the employers in this country. The degree of encouragement that they give to their employees may be the deciding factor. Might I suggest that employers have a double obligation in this respect, an obligation to their employees and ah obligation to their country to see that no obstacle is placed in the way of young men who desire to serve in the militia forces. If the youth of the community are to be expected to fit themselves for the defence of the' Commonwealth, a corresponding public spirit is necessary on the part of all other groups. I would emphasize that enlistment in the militia forces is enlistment for home defence only and for service within the Commonwealth. There is no legal power under the Defence Act for any government to send members of the militia forces abroad for service. 1107 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Cannot that act he amended ? 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I do not propose to make such an attempt. I come now to the consideration of our northern defences. The Government has decided to accelerate the enlistment, and to increase the strength, of the mobile forces provided for Darwin under theprogramme. The recruitment of this force was originally to be spread over three years, but steps are now being taken to enlist personnel for training forthwith. 1107 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - How many men are to be established at Darwin? 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS -The Minister for Defence will give the minor details at a later stage. The increased establishment at Darwin willalso entail the provision of additional accommodation to house the force. 1107 JVJ 0 0 MULCAHY, Daniel Mr Mulcahy - What about the shortage of housing in Canberra? 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - It was arranged that 219 additional instructors were to be provided for the militia forces and recruited over the three years of the programme. Approval has now been given for the enlistment and training of these instructors forthwith, as they will be required for the additional personnel in view. There have been on order through the Air Ministry for some time a large number of fast, powerful, modern twin-engined general reconnaissance type of land planes for the Royal Australian Air Force, but delivery has not been possible so far owing to difficulties in connexion with the expansion programme of the United Kingdom Air Force. Representations were made some time ago to the United Kingdom Government, and the subject has been one for negotiation through the High Commissioner in London. As the result, the United Kingdom Government is loaning to Australia, on a charter basis, a number of Avro Anson aircraft as an interim measure. The Government has, however, decided, as a necessary measure of re-insurance against the non-delivery of the twin-engined aircraft commencing next year, to order in addition 50 LockheedHudsons from the United States of America. It will be recalled that the United Kingdom Government recently placed an order for 200 of these aircraft with the Lockheed Corporation. For the information of honorable members, I give the following details of their performance : - All-up weight in lb. - 18,000. Maximum speed in miles per hour - 260 at 12,000 feet. Climb to 15,000 feet- 13.4 minutes. Maximum range with normal bomb load (1,000 lb.)- 1,250 miles. Maximum range without bombs - 1,750 miles. These are the immediate decisions which have been arrived at by the Government in order to improve the defence programme ; but, as I have already indicated, further investigation continues all the time in regard to this matter, and if further expansion of the programme is decided upon honorable members will be notified of what the Government proposes to do. Any one who takes an unbiased view of this important matter will admit that a splendid job has been done for the defence of this country. 1107 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Does the -maximum range of the Lockheed aircraft of 1,750 miles cover the return to the base? 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I take it that that is so. 1107 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - That is not a very great distance. 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I remind the honorable member that these planes are of a superior type in every regard for the purposes for which they are to be utilized. As I have said, the British Government has ordered 200 of them. I know that recently a great deal of interest has been aroused in the defence question, and I am a little afraid that in some quarters there may be an attempt to use it for party political purposes. What I have outlined is a practical defence policy. 1107 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - It is different from the policy outlined by the right honorable gentleman at the last election. 1107 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS -The policy prepared by my Government at the last election was left to the people to judge. We have gone on with that programme, and have accelerated it. We may have to expand it further, and I wish honorable members to join with the Government in its efforts to implement this policy, and not to regard the defencequestion as one of party politics. The Leader of the Opposition to-day has issued a challenge to this Government because he says it lacks leadership, particularly in regard to the question of defence. I go back to the position which existed in 1932, when the Government which was then in office, because of the financial and economic state of this country, was not in a position to carry out the defence programme it would have liked to carry out. "When the Leader of the Opposition challenges my Government in regard to its alleged lack of leadership, I draw his attention to the fact that in 1934 no mention, except one, was made in regard to the defence of this country in the policy submitted by the Labour party on that occasion, and that solitary mention was a sneer at this Government for having ordered a cruiser from the other side of the world. At the last election' two policies were submitted by the various sections of the Labour party, one by the Australasian Council of Trade Unions " which advocated a policy not of national defence, but of negotiation with other countries for collective security. 1108 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - The Australasian Council of Trade Unions is not a political party; it has no representatives in this Parliament. 1108 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - It very definitely declared its attitude in respect of the policy submitted by the honorable member. The other policy submitted by Labour was that enunciated by the Leader of the Opposition, a policy which placed its reliance solely on the provision of an adequate air force in this country. 1108 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - It placed its reliance on land and shore defence. 1108 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - That policy relied mainly on the provision of an adequate air force, separation from Great Britain, isolation, independence} call it what you will. It was a policy of non-co-operation, and opposed to the policy submitted by this Government of co-operation with Great Britain which it regarded as essential for the defence of this country. That policy of co-operation is just as essential to-day. To-day the Leader of the Opposition submits a policy containing thirteen points, some of which are included in the Government's own policy. To such a degree has reliance upon the Air Force been abandoned, that the Labor Daily says that it is impossible to be 100 per cent, enthusiastic about the policy of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), because it is too close to the Lyons policy. 1108 JVJ 0 0 MULCAHY, Daniel Mr Mulcahy - But that is a Communist newspaper. 1108 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - If the people of Australia look for leadership to the Labour party they must be prepared to accept two kinds of leadership, one by Communists, and another by near-Communists. lt is evident that the people cannot expect leadership from the Labour party, whose only hope is to join forces with us on this' great, national issue of defence. In 1934, there was no mention of defence in the Labour party's election policy. 1108 F4Q 0 0 SCULLIN, James Henry Mr Scullin - The right honorable gentleman said he did not propose to discuss defence. 1108 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I was challenged by the Leader of the Opposition, and by the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin), and I am taking up their challenge. It was suggested that there was no leadership by the Government on this important matter of defence, and I am [Hitting before Parliament and the country what we have done, and what we intend to do, and I propose to contrast it with the declarations of prominent members of the Labour party which sits in opposition ,to-day. In 1934, as I have said, there was no reference to defence in the Labour party's policy. I do not want to repeat the story I told in that year regarding the importance and urgency of defence, because I do not want to delay the House. I merely point out that the most important plank of the Government's policy that year was defence. I stressed the need for preparing to meet any emergency which might arise in the future. The Labour party did not mention defence, except to condemn the Government for getting a new cruiser, because we got it from the other side of the world. In 1935, the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) said in this House that there was no real menace to Australia. He continued - The defence vote of Australia should be substantially and progressively 'reduced, instead of being, as suggested by the present Government, calamitously " increased . . . As to the Navy, if - it should not be cut out altogether, expenditure upon it should be reduced to the very minimum, for the reasons T have mentioned, and because it has indeed brought us in the past into conflict with other powers. Our land defences might well consist of armaments only, and the harbours in our main cities are comparatively easily defended. The honorable member complained of "hysterically increasing the burden of taxation for the purposes of defence ". That -was on the 31st October, 1935, scarcely_more than three years ago. 1109 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - A very good policy, too. 1109 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - I am sorry to hear the honorable member say that. In 1937, Mr. Curtin declared - From its very inception the Labour Government has stood for Australian national defence. Between 1932 and 1935, defence, as far as Labour was concerned, certainly stood - but it stood stock still. I have quoted the statement of the honorable member for Batman, who is one of the senior members of the Labour party. If some of my colleagues, must accept responsibility for the policy of the Government, so must the honorable member for Batman accept, in some measure, responsibility for the policy of the Labour party. The inactivity of the Labour party in regard to defence during the years I have mentioned constituted a fatal defect in its policy. It takes years to plan and execute defence works. It takes years ito build factories for the production of Bren guns, for instance, and for the manufacture of aeroplanes, anti-aircraft guns, sloops, &c. Yet the Labour party was prepared to stand still, and wait until the actual emergency arose, before taking any steps to put the country in a position to defend itself. The Leader of the Opposition recently outlined the defence .policy of his party, when he laid down his thirteen points, some of which are very close to the policy of the Government. He now makes his number one point, not aircraft, but a survey of man-power resources, industrial and primary. That is something which the Government might very well consider, but I remind the honorable gentleman that the Government has already sought the co-operation of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions, and has failed to get it. The Australasian Council of Trade Unions is not a political body, admittedly, but it supports the political party of which the honorable gentleman is the leader. First of all, representatives of the Defence Department conferred with the Australasian Council of Trade Unions, and finally I have conferred with their representatives, in company with the Minister for Defence. We made concessions, and gave guarantees to allay the fears in their minds regarding the con,scription of labour, and so on. We gave definite assurances that no profiteering would be permitted by the Government, and yet we were unable to obtain that co-operation for which I had hoped, and for which I still hope, in the interests of the country. If the Leader of the Opposition can secure their co-operation in regard to a survey of man-power, he will be making a substantial contribution to the defence programme of Australia. 1109 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - But just a moment ago, the right honorable gentleman declared that these labour organizations did not support me. 1109 F4O 0 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS - The Leader of the Op- ' position misunderstands me. I know that they support him politically, but they have a different defence policy from his. I am sure that the Leader of the ' Opposition desires that adequate provision should be made for the defence of Australia, though his opinions as to what constitutes adequate defence measures differ from mine. For instance, the Leader of the Opposition has criticized the suitability of the equipment of the. Royal Australian Air Force. He says that he would obtain Hurricane, Spitfire, Lysander and Ensign aircraft. The Government must act on the advice of its experts, and the Lysander type was originally rejected by the Australian Air Board as being inferior to the Wirraway type, which was selected for manufacture in Australia. The Hurricane and Spitfire types are highperformance, single-seater fighters of short air endurance, specially designed for the defence of London, and would be quite unsuitable for Australian conditions. T,he Ensign type is also regarded as unsuitable. None of the types to which the Leader of the Opposition referred are regarded by our experts as suitable for Australian needs. Side by side with the taking of definite measures for the defence of this country, the policy of the Government is directed towards the settlement of international disputes by conference, negotiation, and consultation. The purpose of the Government is to create friendly relations with all people in all parts of the world, so that our armaments may never need to be used. That policy, enunciated at the Imperial Conference, has been put into operation. We have been in close consultation with the Government of Great Britain. During the Czechoslovak crisis that was our policy, and it was the policy of Great Britain as expressed and applied .by Mr. Chamberlain. I ask the- Leader of the Opposition whether he disagrees with the policy which, on that occasion, preserved the. peace of the world. We continue to act in close co-operation with. Great Britain, particularly in regard to relations with Italy. To-day, Mr. Chamberlain will make a statement in the House of 'Commons in which he will assert the desirability of completing the negotiations between Great Britain and Italy, and the putting into effect of the agreement which must have far-reaching effects in many directions. It will have an important bearing on the general relations between the two countries, and eventually on trade. It will also tend to ensure peace and security in the Mediterranean, and will have important effects upon the future of this country. The Government has been in consultation with the Government of Great Britain, and has expressed the opinion that the sooner the agreement is concluded and given effect, the better for the two countries immediately concerned, and probably for the peace of the world. The cable which the Government has sent to the Government of Great Britain expressing this opinion will to-day, with our consent, be used by Mr. Chamberlain himself in the House of Commons. These are indications of our desire to make friends with the people of the world so that the engines of war .and defence with which we. are providing ourselves may never have to be used. In the meantime, we must protect ourselves. We must take the advice of those who are in a position to tell us what is necessary for the defence of the country The policy of the Government has been that, plus cooperation, with Great Britain of a kind to ensure that Great Britain will contribute to our defence, we, when necessary, will make our contribution also. When I spoke to the people from the public platform, I told them that there was nothing which Australia could do on its own account to give absolute security; that security was possible only through cooperation with Great Britain. We have maintained the closest relations with the Government of Great Britain, and I do not hesitate to say that Australia can depend absolutely on the co-operation of that Government in ensuring the security of this country. 1110 F4U Capricornia 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE .- I support the motion of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) that, because of the lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. The motion, 'if put to the people of Australia to-day, would be carried by an overwhelming majority. Indeed, it would be interesting to see what would be the result of a secret ballot of all the members of this House on that motion if they were not afraid of party discipline. The Leader of the Opposition, in a masterly speech, made out an unanswerable case. Frankly, I was very disappointed with the weak and unconvincing reply of the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons). The. right honorable gentleman does not lack ability to state his case, but he realized that he was, to introduce a sporting metaphor, batting on a very sticky wicket. He endeavoured to smother the charges regarding lack of leadership. He endeavoured to cover up the dissension in the ranks of his own party, and to ignore the hostile criticism of upwards of 150 conservative newspapers throughout Australia, which have been almost unanimous in denouncing the Lyons-Page Government. 1110 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - He did not tell us whether there was to be any reconstruction of the Ministry. 1110 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - No, he did not tell us whether the " Big Four " were going to bring to bear their political sagacity to reconstruct the Ministry or whether they were going to dump politically the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby). All of that is to come. The Prime Minister hopes that ho will be able to keep quiet the rebels on the cross benches, who are full of optimism and hope that they will be included in the Cabinet when it is reconstructed, and who are afraid to jeopardize their prospects of inclusion if they speak before the reconstruction is completed. I was surprised that the Prime Minister, instead of dealing with this question on a high political plane, should drag it down to the realm of sordid party politics. He made an appeal to the House not to make this motion a party political matter, but all the time he was harking back to 1931, 1934 and 1935, quoting speeches of individual honorable members, going even to the Australasian Council of Trade Unions and other outside industrial unions, bodies that have no controlling place in the Federal Labour party. The right honorable gentleman, who does not want to make this matter a party political question, made a cheap gibe about the' number of alterations which were made in the Scullin Ministry. He is the last person who should refer to those political changes because they were due largely to political treachery that he and some other honorable gentlemen, who sit opposite, want to forget. 1111 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -Order ! The honorable member for Capricornia is distinctly out of order. 1111 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I hope that the Prime Minister will not again forget himself bo much as to refer to the political movements which caused those changes in the Scullin Ministry. The Prime Minister said that he was ready to take the full responsibility for the leadership of his Government. That being the case, I take it that the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) had the right honorable gentleman in mind when he made his speech at the Constitutional Club in which he roundly condemned the lack of Australian leadership, and said that if democracies were to maintain their place in the world they must provide leadership as inspiring as that of dictatorled countries. The statement was blazoned forth in the press of Australia and the next day the Sydney Morning Herald published the following comment : - Australian democratic leadership seldom appeared in so poor a light. If the Prime Minister takes full responsibility for his leadership, then the cap must fit him because the Attorney-General condemned the lack of leadership in Australian politics. The Attorney-General, too, cannot absolve himself from blame for lack of leadership in the Commonwealth Government, because he is deputy leader of the United Australia party, which is -the larger of the two parties that compose the composite Ministry. It will be interesting to see how the Prime Minister answers certain questions, which are on the notice paper, in regard to the reflection made by the deputy leader of his party (Mr. Menzies) on leadership in the Australian Government to-day. The Leader of the Opposition was chid with the fact that the Scullin Government cut down expenditure on defence. The Prime Minister and the Minister for Defence know quite well that the circumstances then were altogether different from what they are to-day. They know that Australia was in the throes of the worst economic depression ever experienced by this country, that' there was a deficit of £10,000,000 in the Commonwealth Treasury, and that the combined Australian governments were faced with a prospective deficit of £20,000,000. The defence advisers of the Scullin Government, acting on the information received from the Foreign Office, told the Scullin Government that Australia appeared to be safe for the next ten years. The British Government was curtailing expenditure on defence. We sent a Minister to the Disarmament Conference which was held in Great Britain. The question of disarmament was foremost in the minds of the statesmen of all countries of the world, and at a time when sacrifices were being made by all sections of the people was it not right that we should curtail expenditure on defence, especially as Great Britain, South Africa, New Zealand and some European countries were doing so? Was it not also in accordance with the definite opinions voiced by the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page), who is the Deputy Prime Minister, in this Parliament before he occupied a position in the Ministry? On the 16th October, 1921, the right honorable gentleman, speaking in this Parliament, said - I hope that the amount which has been moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) will be carried. If it is defeated, I shall move that the proposed vote be reduced by £400,000 . . . While the rest of the world is talking about a naval holiday, it is surely worth while for Australia to think about having a military holiday. 1112 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green - Who said that? 1112 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - The Deputy Prime Minister (Sir Earle Page). I could quote other passages from the speech, but on the 17th November of the same year, the right honorable gentleman moved that the vote for defence be reduced by £400,000 because it was his opinion that it was right that the world should embark on a policy of disarmament. In 1931 when the Scullin Government had to make cuts of expenditure a Disarmament Conference was in progress and we sent a representative to it. The representatives of the British Government said that everything pointed to there being world peace for at least 10 years. In the circumstances we were justified in making those cuts which were referred to by the Prime Minister. Our advisers at the time also told us that the submarines that were left on our hands by. the Bruce Page Government were absolutely useless and that the cruisers bought by that Government were of the wrong type. Those cruisers were bought by a government of which the right honorable member for Cowper occupied a foremost position. The Prime Minister referred to the suspension of compulsory military training by the Scullin Government. The right honorable gentleman was a member of the government that was responsible for that suspension and he for the last seven years has been leader of a government which, acting on the advice of the experts of the Defence Department, has decided, not to re-introduce it. Surely, it is a cheap gibe, one not worthy of a Prime Minister, that the Labour party should be castigated because it was responsible for the abolition of compulsory training. It is doubly cheap when one recalls that the man who made it was a member of the Government which took, the action. It becomes even worse when one is confronted with the fact that, although this Government has been in power for seven years, it has done nothing to re-introduce the system of compulsory military^ service. The Prime Minister referred to the expenditure by this Government of £53,000,000 on defence in the last six years. What has he to show for this expenditure? What has he done adequately to safeguard Australia and to make it capable of defending itself against an aggressor? 1112 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Imported a lot of obsolete rubbish. 1112 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I am reminded that the Government has imported a lot of obsolete rubbish. That is so. The opinion of some of the best military experts in Australia is that this country has been left in a comparatively defenceless position, which shows a lack of statesmanship on the part of a government that has expended £53,000,000 of public money in, to say the least of it, a very unwise manner. 1112 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - Who are those experts? 1112 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - The Minister for Defence wants to go on a man-hunting expedition and to come heavily down upon some of the officers in his department in order to buttress the Defence Secrets Bill that is to be thrown on the table within a few weeks. The Minister for Defence will admit that, although the Government has very little to show for the expenditure of £53,000,000, under the guise of the necessity to look to the defence of this country this Government has raised tax collections from a total of £53,000,000 in 1931-32 to £69,000,000 in 1937-38. If any one is deserving of censure for failure to place the defences of Australia in a sound and efficient condition, it is the Lyons-Page Government. I should like to remind the Minister for Defence and the Prime Miinster that a Tory government of 25 years ago held the opinion that there should be no Australian Navy and that we should present a cruiser to the British Government. Itwas the Labour party that established the Australian Navy. It decided, in doing so, that Australia would be helping Great Britain to a greater degree by the establishment of a nucleus navy than by applying the policy that had been enunciated by the Tory Government that was its predecessor. The attitude of the Labour party was supported later by a message which was sent by the British Government to the Tory Prime Minister, who, I think, was Sir Joseph Cook. The message was to the effect that the attitude adopted by the previous Government was in the best interests of the British Empire. Now this Government has been by sheer weight of evidence moved to adopt, somewhat tardily, Labour's policy of developing the defences of Australia to defend it against aggression. It is evident, I think, to every fair-minded man or woman that this Government is a rudderless ship drifting aimlessly. The Ministry is made up of a hydra-headed conglomeration of political spare parts whose chief objective is to remain in the Ministry even if the foreshadowed reshuffle takes place. 1113 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green - Some want compulsory military training and others do not. 1113 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Yes, the Cabinet is divided on that question and on a number of other questions. What else can we expect from a composite Ministry? Before I sit down, I shall give justification for the wrangling that is taking place in the Ministry. Historians tell us that while Rome was burning the chief administrator of Rome, Nero, fiddled. The incident is related as being one of the most contemptible and reprehensible actions by a responsible public man. Judging by its handling of the great problems pf defence, development and employment the Lyons-Page Government bids fair to out-Nero Nero. It has shown lamentable lack of leadership, and an utter absence of constructive ability, at a time when Australia is in dire need of sound statesmanship. This country cannot stand still; it must go either forward or backward; and it is evident that, if it depends upon the creative genius of the occupants of the treasury bench, the future will be retrogressive. This Parliament has the opportunity now to face up to the position. Surely the Opposition is justified in moving this motion of want of confidence, in view of the criticism of the Government which has appeared in practically every conservative newspaper in Australia. It is evident that, in the ranks of the Government's own political friends, there is a feeling of dismay, disappointment, and indeed exasperation at its timidity and futility. I listened in vain for an explanation by the Prime Minister of what the Government intends to do with a view to grappling with the serious problem of unemployment. To-day, upwards of 150,000 persons are out of work, and the time has arrived for the Commonwealth to take more than an academic interest in the matter, particularly in relation to the absorption of youths in industry. The statistics show that during the last six months the percentage of unemployment has risen from 8 per cent, to 9.2 per cent. Every public man is fully cognisant of the keen anxiety of parents to place their boys in employment, whether in factories or elsewhere. Prior to the last election and previous elections, a great deal was said regarding the Government's intentions, yet not one word on the subject was uttered by the Prime Minister to-day. I have ringing in my ears the right honorable gentleman's statement that the Commonwealth believed that the Teemployment of the people was a national obligation, and that it was co-operating with the State governments in their endeavour to solve the unemployment problem. He also said that substantial sums of money would be required for that purpose, as it was intended to launch out in big schemes. Questioned as to where he would get the necessary money, he said: " I have no anxiety in regard to the raising of the money. In view of the restored confidence, the money will be raised and the people will be put into employment." Yet to-day he made not the slightest reference to his lamentable failure to co-operate with the States, with a view to enabling them to put into lucrative employment the thousands of persons who are out of work. I listened in vain, too, for some refer ence which would justify the procrastination of the Government in regard to legislation effecting banking and monetary reform. What has become of the report of the royal commission which cost this country upwards of £20,000, and which made very helpful suggestions as to the legislation that should be introduced ? I also listened in vain for some reference to the Government's intentions in regard to legislation dealing with the making of small loans to working people. Prior to the last election, the government made a strong feature of the proposal to grant small loans to working people to enable them to purchase things which it was said were absolutely essential for the happiness and prosperity of every member of the household. It was stated on a number of platforms that small loans were necessary to enable fathers to establish their sons in some class of business or to permit of training for trade and professions. Many fathers are to-day awaiting a pronouncement by the head of the Government in connexion with this matter. I also expected the right honorable gentleman to attempt to justify the procrastination of the Government in the inauguration of a national housing scheme, but he endeavoured to smother up this matter and other urgent matters. Not one word did he utter in justification of the failure of the Government to tackle the problem of the standardization of the railway gauges, to which, prior to the last election, he said that his Government had given consideration, and which it intended to tackle in conjunction with measures for the defence of Australia. He made no reference to country water storage schemes, for which he promised that money would be made available; nor did he refer to his promise that the State governments would be financially accommodated in relation to sewerage construction in large country towns - a work which he described as a very necessary public utility that would provide employment for thousands of workers. One of his statements on this matter was - Such works might not at once prove reproductive, but if wisely chosen, they could not fail to prove a sound investment in the further development of Australia. As the mouthpiece of the Government, he Raid that the Commonwealth would take a larger share of the responsibility for finding employment for the unemployed, a matter which, he said, was very near to his heart. During the election campaign, he had quite a lot to say about a shorter working week. He then intimated that the Government believed in a progres- sively shorter working week for the people of Australia; yet he absolutely failed to touch upon that matter to-day, and has declined to discuss it since the last elections were held. A further project for the absorption of the unemployed which he said was under consideration was the extraction of oil from coal, yet no reference was made to that matter to-day. He also announced that farmers' debt adjustment was a matter of such serious concern to the Government and the people of Australia that £20,000,000 would be made available on that account. He prophesied that the money would be disbursed in three or four years. Nearly four years have since elapsed, yet less than half of that sum has been made available, although a bill authorizing the disbursement of £12,000,000 was passed by this Parliament. Can one wonder that a Tory newspaper like the Melbourne Herald, which played a greater part than any other newspaper in Australia in securing the return to office of the Lyons Government, should publish the' following statement: - In the absence of constructive leadership, Cabinet Ministers in the federal sphere are at sixes and sevens. There is real dissatisfaction with the conduct of the Defence Department. . . The Australian Government has reached a stage at which it borders on helplessness to face Australia's most commanding and solemn duty. The reconstruction of the Commonwealth Cabinet is imperative.. I invite honorable members to listen to what even a National Premier of one of the States has said in regard to the lack of constructive leadership in the Federal Cabinet, and then to answer the question : "Is the Opposition merely introducing party politics, or speaking with tongue in cheek when it says that the Government is deserving of censure for its lack of constructive leadership ? " Speaking on the 24th October, after the failure of the Commonwealth to place before the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers any constructive proposals, Mr. Stevens said - Nothing short of a complete policy will satisfy the needs of the situation, and that policy will not be secured hy a policy of timidity and uncertainty. Newspapers from one end of Australia to the other have criticized the Government. The following statement appeared in the Sydney Daily Telegraph of the 25th October : - The people are looking to the Federal Government for the lead which has not yet been given. We are unlikely to get the necessary drive while Mr. Thorby remains the Minister for Defence. I am not here to join in the hunt after that honorable gentleman; he is not nearly so deserving of censure as are the senior men in the Cabinet, notably the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General, the Minister for Commerce, and others who have been in the Cabinet for a much longer period than the honorable gentleman. Evidently they are attempting to make of him a scapegoat. One cannot wonder that the Melbourne Herald should declare recently in big headlines, " Tho weakest link in Australia's defence to-day is the Federal Cabinet ". Doubtless it has intelligent eyes and ears noting events in this Parliament and its precincts, and is in a good position to pass judgment on the situation, even though it speaks with a considerable degree of reluctance against a government of its making. I have some sympathy for the Primo Minister in his effort to make a constructive Cabinet out of the political remnants in the two parties from which he must make his choice. I have in mind a very strong statement by Sir Stanley Argyle, leader of the Nationalist party in Tictoria, in reply to the suggestion that in the alleged interest of that State ha should have a composite ministry. It was - Do not give us a mongrel Cabinet, incapable of doing useful work. How can one expect constructive leadership from this composite Government, in view of statements made concerning one another by gentlemen who now sit side by side in the Cabinet? How can ^Australia expect them to evolve a constructive national policy? Before the advent of this composite Ministry, when the Country party was fighting for portfolios, members of that party were loud in denunciation of honorable members, side by side with whom they now sit. The Minister for External- Affairs (Mr. Hughes), before re-entering the Cabinet, had something very interesting to say about the Nationalist party ; he described it as a " stand-pat " party, and said that it was losing touch with the people because it did not definitely and enthusiastically stand for anything at all. The right honorable gentleman is now a member of the Ministry. Certainly, he speaks out of his turn at times, and is carpeted. He was ejected on the end of the political boot because of a book that he wrote, in which the views ho expressed were somewhat in agreement with those held by the Labour party; but he was able to secure re-admission. He was carpeted for a pronouncement of Government policy in regard to New Guinea, but was forgiven. Then he aligned himself -with Mr. Stevens before knowing what the Federal Treasurer (Mr. Casey) had said, and was required to make an explanation. That caused him no concern; he is able to explain away anything that he says. He has been taken back into the fold on the condition that he is a good boy in future. He next selected a capital for New Guinea, found it unpopular, and then dropped it. When the United Australia party was first formed, .Sir Archdale Parkhill, a front-ranker in the Nationalist party, characterized the new body as a collection of spare parts; yet to-day there are members of that party in the composite Ministry, and statesmanlike actions are expected from them. Is it any wonder that there is a lack of leadership? The honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Hunter) was for some time quite an ornament in the Ministry as an Assistant Minister. I have nothing to say against him personally; he must have been a prominent member of the Country party to be chosen as one of its representatives in the Lyons-Page Government. There was a period during which he wondered whether or not he was to be admitted. The Minister for Commerce was told that he was not wanted in the Government because the United Australia party was strong enough to carry on without his assistance. The honorable member for Maranoa said - The Prime Minister is drunk with success. He can see no' further than place, power, and pay for his own supporters. He was afterwards taken into the Ministry. I turn now to the alleged " Cromwell of the Riverina ", ex-Senator Hardy. No one could say that he did not know the Lyons Government, inside and outside. He condemned it roundly on many occasions. Sometimes he praised it. Unfortunately he was defeated before he gained a seat in the Ministry, but there can be no doubt that his condemnations were qualifying him for a seat. He said on one occasion - The Lyons Government was blinded by the dazzle of vested interests. It was a monument of the people's bad judgment. Ex-Senator Hardy was one of the strong men of the Country party. At one time he was a candidate for the leadership of the party. Had he remained in Parliament long enough he would probably have reached his goal. This Government consists, as to half of its members, of Country party representatives. Another one- third of the members of the Country party enjoy perquisites of one kind or another, and are on the pay roll of the Government. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the Country party has lost its fighting force? It has become just a weak joint in the tail of the Nationalist party. The independent Country party member for Wimmera (Mr. Wilson), when describing them, said - These men are more interested in preserving intact the present composite government than they are in fighting for the farmers. I feel justified in saying that the members of the Country party are chiefly concerned about joining the Cabinet band. That is their main consideration. On one occasion they threatened to withdraw their support from the Government and to vote with the Labour party if any of their members were jettisoned from the Cabinet. They actually used the kind of force that they so often roundly condemn when it is used by the industrial unions of Australia. However, the Leader of the Country party, the present Minister for Commerce, was able to convince the leader of the Nationalist party that he should be made a member of the Cabinet, notwithstanding that he had said of the Government - I am ashamed to belong to a Federal Government that is not helping Australia at all, and especially because of its scurvy treatment of primary producers. The right honorable gentleman also said on one occasion that he would not be found dead in a 40 acre paddock with certain members of the Government. Yet he qualified to join this extraordinary team, which some misguided people expect to formulate a statesmanlike national policy for Australia! The right honorable gentleman could not, himself, bring any constructive leadership into the Cabinet. The stillborn child that he brought to the conference of Premiers recently was all that could be expected from him. The right honorable gentleman's outlook on that occasion deserved the opprobrium and condemnation that it received. How could any one reasonably expect cohesion and constructive thought from a Government made up of such incongruous parts? The Prime Minister said at one time of the Country party - The Country party made a change of policy behind the backs of the people, a condition of its co-operation with the Ministry. In other words he accused the Country party of dishonest political tactics; but afterwards, when his Government was threatened with defeat on the floor of the House, he assumed a different attitude, and the members of the Country party had not the moral courage to vote against the Government. The Prime Minister said in effect - "Don't shoot, I will put up my hands. If you come into the Government we shall be able to evolve a statesmanlike national policy for Australia." And they were taken in with poor results to Australia. [Leave to continue given.] I see the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) on the treasury bench in front of me. He also has had a little to say about the Country party. He expressed the following view: - The Country party is sectional first, last, andalways, without regard to the claims of other interests. It would have been a pity had the House been deprived of the opportunity to hear the words of wisdom uttered by the Minister for Trade and Customs in regard to certain colleagues with whom to-day he sits in close conclave. If those words were true at the time they were first uttered, ' they are equally true to-day; yet the Minister was prepared to allow the Minister for Commerce to formulate the policy that was presented to the Premiers only a week or two ago. Can any one wonder that that conference was a dismal failure? The honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) is another gentleman who has made the supreme sacrifice for the Nationalist cause. He was turned out of the Cabinet because of his independent and constructive thought on a certain occasion. As a member of the Cabinet he attempted to make certain trade agreements with countries overseas. No one could accuse this honorable gentleman of being afraid to speak his mind. Etc has spoken it on a number of occasions concerning the present Minister for Commerce, and has not been hesitant in describing his shortcomings. He said on one occasion - Dr. Page stormed his way into office a» Treasurer in 1923 with a great campaign of economy, and his performances then, and to-day, have been the most inconsistent this country has known. Another right honorable gentleman who sits dumb on the Government side of the House is the Attorney-General. He is the mystery man of the Federal Cabinet, and his promised promotion seems further away than ever. He, too, seemed to be content to allow the Minister for Commerce, who was once described by the honorable member for Henty as " the most tragic Treasurer Australia has ever had " to formulate the string of puerile platitudes which was put before the recent Premiers Conference. Not only was the honorable member for Henty very critical of certain members of the Country party, but he was also critical of the Minister for External Affairs, of whom he said - When Mr. Hughes formed a party of his own in 1930, Sir Henry Gullett said that the new party was made up of the strangest collection of political has-beens and dead-beats that has ever been seen together. The only crime the Nationalist party had committed against Mr. Hughes was that it had got on very well without him for six or seven years. Yet the honorable member for Henty had to witness the spectacle of this " political has been " and " dead beat " being taken to the bosom of the Nationalist Government. But because the trade policy that he had advanced in the best interests of Australia was rejected by the Government, the honorable member for Henty had the manliness to walk out of the Cabinet. He would not permit his administration to be interfered with by the Minister for Commerce. 1117 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That is absolutely incorrect. 1117 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - It is quite correct. The Minister for Defence was probably not present at the Cabinet meeting at the time. It is amazing to me that any sensible person can expect cohesion and constructive thought from a composite government formed of members of the United Australia party and the Country party who hold the unflattering opinions of one another that I have outlined. Of course the Assistant Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) could not allow himself to be left out of a political fight in this House or elsewhere. 1117 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - I am a man of peace. 1117 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - The Assistant Minister and the Minister for Commerce travelled together on one occasion in a two-berth compartment in a train in New South Wales, and the honorable gentleman was pleased subsequently to refer to the Minister for Commerce as a great statesman. But what was his opinion a few years ago? I direct attention to these observations that he made - I have no brief for Dr. Page. I think even inside our own party there are abler men than he. Later he said - Tt is regrettable that our financial difficulties during the war were not regulated by a man of financial stability, the man we had at that time having since -proved his capacity for harebrained schemes of all descriptions. Now he is sitting side by side with the Minister for Commerce, and hopes to impress us that- he is assisting him to evolve a constructive policy for Australia ! How comes it that the Treasurer is a member of the Cabinet composed of members who have been engaged in squabbles of this description? Possibly he will be the next victim, for in an effort to save this politically moribund Cabinet from being carried to the crematorium, an attempt is being made in some quarters to obtain a seat in the Cabinet for Mr. .Stevens, the Premier of Now South Wales. But I must return to the Assistant Minister for Commerce and his fiery political utterances. He had something to say about the Prime Minister which is worth repeating. I direct attention to the following observations that he made: - The merger of the Liberal and Country parties makes no difference whatever to my views or to the Government led by Mr. Lyons, who lias no political principles for guidance at all, and who is just a piece of flotsam on the sea getting nowhere. Later he said - F,rom the primary producers' point of view, it was choosing the lesser of two evils, and I never had any delusions at all as to Mr. Lyons . . . The career of Mr. Lyons to some people is a disappointment, but I am not disappointed because I have never founded any hopes in him ... I never had any hopes of Mr. Joseph Lyons . . . The attitude Jio took up before the Emergency Committee last year on the question of the tariff proved that he never had an ounce of back-tone in his make-iVP- Is it any wonder that newspapers throughout Australia are to-day criticizing this Government for its lack of leadership? The Government is condemned out of the mouths of its own members, particularly those of the Country party. While those honorable gentlemen were sitting in their party room facing a placard on the wall which bore the words, "Jobs, jobs, jobs," in black letters, they were concerning themselves mainly with securing portfolios. Now they have got half the portfolios they appear to be quite satisfied. But the newspapers have at last turned upon the Government, and properly so. I should like to have discussed many other aspects of the Government's maladministration, but time will not permit. 1 have said enough to show that it was ludicrous to expect the Government to formulate any constructive policy for the consideration of the Premiers. The State Premiers have grave responsibilities resting upon them, and in view of the submissions made to them by the leaderless Lyons Government, it is not surprising that they reacted as they did. They were invited to listen to a string of platitudes. We Bad to listen to the same platitudes in this House. The right honorable gentleman responsible for them said when he came into this House years ago - The only reason why I went into Federal politics was to bring about a multiplication of State Governments of Australia and to bring about new States. In view of recent happenings, the right honorable gentleman seems to have made a complete re-orientation of his views in regard to the necessity for a multiplicity of State governments. The right honorable gentleman voiced a lot of platitudes in those days. He said that if we had twenty, instead of six, States, Australia would have a population of 20,000,000. No wonder the Treasurer smiles. We heard from the right honorable member last week a grandiloquent string of platitudes in which high-sounding phrases were predominant. For instance, he said - Tlie programme involved a plan of cooperative action between the Commonwealth and State Governments and industry over a period of seven to ten years, the objective being proper economic utilisation of Australia's limited financial resources. . . . Now is the psychological moment for a definite call to national service, a. national outlook, mid a national programme. We heard, frequent references to "coordinate," - " co-operate," " implement," " resources," " potentialities," " economic utilization " and " psychological moment." No wonder the Sydney Morning Herald said that the right honorable gentleman's speech in Parliament " illustrated his disposition to obscure the substance of his proposals in a cloud of idealistic generalities ! " This Government has failed in its obligations to the people and to this Parliament; it has shown a lamentable lack of leadership ; it deserves to be sent before its masters, and when that happens it will be doomed to political oblivion. 1118 KWC Calare CP Minister for Defence 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY . - I listened with a great deal of interest to the speeches delivered by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), particularly in view of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition himself moved a motion of censure on the Government which motion has been supported by his deputy, and also in view of the fact that I have always looked upon such a motion as a serious charge against a government sufficient,, if warranted, to justify its defeat. But after having listened to the utterances of the honorable gentlemen opposite, I am at a loss to understand why this motion of censure should have been moved. 1119 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - That is always the reply of the accused. 1119 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - In view of the fact that the Defence Department has come in for more than its share of criticism, I feel it incumbent upon me, as the Minister administering it, to direct particular attention to two utterances which were made this afternoon by the Leader of the Opposition and repeated by his deputy. The Leader of the Opposition said, in the first place, that this Government and other governments over the last six or seven years had spent £53,000,000 on defence and had- produced nothing. Those, are the exact words he used. The honorable gentleman went further, and said that the Government has failed to make provision for the defence of Australia, and that the money spent on defence has been wasted. That is a serious statement, which, if true, would be a reflection on the defence programmes of this Government and its predecessors. I ask honorable members to cast back their minds over the years referred to by the Leader of the Opposition. Expenditure on defence since 193.1-32 has been as follows : - This year the Government budgeted for nearly £17,000,000, and will spend approximately £19,000,000 on defence, making a total considerably in excess of the £53,000,000 referred to by the Leader of the Opposition. 1119 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - Be fair ! 1119 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - I said that the honorable member referred to the expenditure of £53,000,000 on defence over a number of years. I have cited the specific amounts spent each year since 1931-32, and it will be seen that they total considerably more than the £53,000,000 referred to by him. 1119 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - What has the Government to show for the expenditure of that money ? 1119 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - That is what I am about to explain. The point I wish to make is that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition have emphasized that there is nothing to show for the expenditure of that money, that it has been wasted, and that the Government has not made adequate provision for the defence of Australia. Let me repeat one" phrase used by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) when he directed attention, quite fairly, to the low ebb to which the defence organization of this country had fallen at the commencement of the period referred to by the Leader of the Opposition. Leaving out of consideration altogether what party may have been in power prior to 1931-32, the fact is that at the commencement of the period referred to by the Leader of the Opposition the whole defence organization of Australia was probably at the lowest ebb i't had ever reached. What has happened since this new expenditure has been embarked upon? Take each section of the defence organization one by one up to the present time. Take, in the first place, the Navy. It has been gradually strengthened year by year by increasing the personnel, and the organization has been enlarged. This year the Government, admitting that our naval strength was not sufficient to enable it to carry out its first responsibility, the protection of our trade routes, has ordered two completed cruisers from overseas instead of attempting to wait for them to be built locally. It has been subjected to a good deal of criticism for doing so; but it considered that they were so urgently needed that vessels already constructed should be procured. In doing so, it was animated solely by a desire to protect the interests of this country. Had it waited for the new cruisers to be built locally or elsewhere, they would, not have been available during the recent emergency period, whereas, during the recent crisis, one of them was already in commission, manned by Australian personnel, and read}' to take its place had the occasion arisen. In addition, a . 6-in. cruiser is clue to arrive in Australian waters early next year to augment the Australian Navy. I emphasize that these cruisers represent only two items added to our naval strength. The Prime Minister has indicated that additional sloops are being built in Australia, providing continuity of employment for Australian workmen in the shipbuilding industry. As soon as one sloop is half-completed, the keel of another will be laid. In this way, continuity of employment will be maintained in our own shipyards. Boom defence .and harbour defence vessels are also being built in our own shipyards in addition to every form of defence against torpedo or submarine attack upon our harbours. All of that organization is being carried out in Australia at a cost of millions of pounds, and all of the work undertaken is necessary to increase the strength of our Navy to enable it to carry out what is perhaps its first responsibility, the safeguarding of the trade routes to and from the Commonwealth. I .emphasize the value of adequate protection of our trade routes, in the interests not only of Australia, but also of the whole of the British Empire. Everybody recognizes that unless Australia can maintain the flow of primary products from its shores, it would be financially embarrassed within a few weeks. Therefore, from the viewpoint of our national existence, it is essential that our trade routes should be policed in order to maintain the free flow of raw materials and foodstuffs to the United Kingdom. If the flow were interrupted the United Kingdom would be seriously embarrassed in a very short space of time. It is essential also, from an Empire viewpoint, that the trade routes should bo kept open in the event of an emergency. The. most essential organization to keep the trade routes free is an efficient and effective naval force backed up by coast defences assisted by boom and harbour defences. All of this is being provided for in the Government's defence programme. Ample provision has to be made for the laying of a foundation organization to make the whole of these services efficient. That has been done right through the years since the inauguration of the Flinders Naval Base where the training of hoys, almost in their infancy, is undertaken to enable them to be ready to take their places in the Navy after graduation. The foundation must also be laid in the munitions factories, where all sorts of munitions for war are being produced by Australian labour in government-owned factories. Another form of our naval organization, that relating to wireless equipment, is second to none in the world. Scattered from one end of the Commonwealth to the other, from Darwin in the north to the extremities in the west, air force stations are being established and linked up with our coast defences which are being re-organized and re-equipped. In Sydney, the latest 9.2-in. guns are established in groups, north and south, to protect our vulnerable areas and our key industries. Similar defences are being provided for Newcastle, in which is situated one of the most important key industries of the Commonwealth. In spite of all these preparations, honorable members opposite have the audacity to ask, " What has the Government to show for the expenditure of money on defence ? " Let me say" that preparations for the adequate defence of Australia cannot be finalized within a few months. Our defences need trained and highly technical personnel- to handle them. Preparations on the same scale are being made . in connexion "with the defence of Western Australia. Fremantle, in the electorate represented by the Leader of the Opposition, is one of our most heavily fortified ports. Rottnest Island is equipped with a battery of 9.2-inch guns and all the barrack organization necessary. All of these preparations have been carried out during the last few years. The Leader of the Opposition is not fair enough to give the Government credit for having protected his own State in a manner not accomplished by the party to which he belongs when it was in office. To-day Darwin is a heavily fortified and protected area. Foundations have been laid for the establishment of an important naval base, and for the provision of extensive oil storage tanks, in addition to those already in existence. The defence plans also provide for the establishment at Darwin of two squadrons of the Royal Australian Air Force to act in co-operation with, the naval organization. That is part of the Empire defence plan and is designed to enable Australia to take its place as a part of the Empire capable of defending itself against a major attack in company with the other parts of the Empire. The Brisbane River has also been fortified. The geographical position of Brisbane has assisted in its defence, but the improvement of its defences is all part of the coast defence system which we have been building up for several years, and for. which money has been provided year by year, as I have explained. It would be futile to provide coast defences, without also providing the necessary basic organization to train and equip men to man them, and providing ammunition. All of the necessary organization in that connexion has been going on side by side with the development of our coast defences. The artillery men for our coast defences are being trained at Sydney. Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been expended in establishing coast defences and this efficient training organization, which is the foundation of the coast defences of Australia, and we have not finished yet. Our plans provide for additional coast defences at Port Kembla, where workmen are engaged in the production of iron and steel. Unless those industries are protected, it would be useless to establish defence works for the protection of the rest of Australia. We have also been gradually increasing the strength of the militia forces.' We increased the strength from 26,500 to 35,000, and now we have approved of a plan for raising the strength to 42,000, and eventually to 70,000 men. Several thousand new recruits are being added to the air force personnel. The air force itself is being expanded at an unprecedented rate. New aeroplanes are being added to the force as fast as we can build them, or purchase them overseas and import them. The ground organization is being expanded in every direction, from Laverton in the south to Darwin in the north. Two squadrons are to be based on Darwin, another on Brisbane, and another two on the east coast. Another three squadrons are being formed to co-operate with the army at Canberra. A second squadron will be formed at Pearce next year. All of these will give us a much stronger air force. The Leader of the Opposition said that nothing had been done. He represents an electorate in Western Australia which is almost next door to the Pearce air-force station, one of the finest in the Commonwealth. Let him be honest with himself, even if he declines to be honest with us. He must know that an air squadron has already been stationed at that place. The army is being kept abreast of development in mechanization. We have been told that there are no antiaircraft guns in Australia. That is wrong. At Maribyrnong, as the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Drakeford) and other honorable members who have visited the factory, know, we have one of the finest ordnance and munition factories in the Southern Hemisphere. There, some of the finest antiaircraft guns in the world are being manufactured, guns which are equal to those in use in the British Army. Some of these guns are already actually in commission. They are high-class weapons, fast-firing and mobile, and are fitted with every device to ensure their efficiency. Yet the public are being misled, simply because I am not able, as Minister for Defence, to give all the details regarding our defence preparations. We have had to meet, not only the cost of manufacturing the guns, but also that of establishing a factory, and purchasing the equipment with which to manufacture them. To-day, we are manufacturing S-in. shells in Australia, a thing never attempted in the past. An educational order has also been placed for the manufacture of 9.2 shells. The munitions organization is manufacturing tens of thousands - I am not at liberty to state the exact number - of gas masks, which will be 100 per cent. Australian. Even twelve months ago there existed no provision in this country for the manufacture of steel helmets; to-day they are being turned out in thousands, and made out of our own Australian steel. The output of the ammunition factories lias been greatly expanded. In addition, an explosives factory, one of the finest in the southern hemisphere, ismanufacturing all the explosives required by the Defence Department. A modern factory for the manufacture of modern aircraft has been established at Fisherman's Bend. That, admittedly, did not require the expenditure of Commonwealth funds, but it was made possible by the attitude of the Government to those who were prepared to find the capital to set up and equip the factory, and train the men needed to staff it. Already one order of 40 Wirraway aeroplanes is being executed for the Air Force, and' will be delivered soon. Another order for 60 planes has been given, and the planes will be delivered next year. 1122 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Are the engines being manufactured here? 1122 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - Yes, every part of the engines will be manufactured here. Our ambition is to make the defence organization as self-contained as it can possibly be, because we know the risk we should run if, during hostilities, our trade routes were closed while -we were dependent upon overseas sources of supply. The production of ammunition inside Australia has been doubled, so that we are in a position, not only to meet our own requirements, but also to make supplies available to New Zealand. This is a defence asset to Australia, because a weak New Zealand would be a weak link in the whole chain of Empire defence. Until recently we were unable to manufacture searchlights in Australia. Todayorders can be placed in this country for the production of searchlights for the Defence Department, and they will be manufactured from Australian materials by our own Australian workmen. That is of definite economic advantage to Australia. The Leader of the Opposition said that the Government ignored the economic requirements of the country, that it had no concern for the unemployed, for instance. That is not so. All of our efforts have been concentrated on extending our defence organization so that all of our requirements can be met from within Australia. We have even introduced an entirely new system in the letting of tenders for defence equipment. Realizing the advantages of decentralization, and the better distribution of population throughout the Commonwealth, we have agreed to accept tenders for the supply .of defence material at the place of manufacture, irrespective of what it costs in freight from that point to the point at which the material is required. Thus a manufacturer in Toowoomba, or in Perth, is on the same footing in regard to defence tenders as a manufacturer in Newcastle or Melbourne. The Leader of the Opposition was also unfair when he said that the bulk of the defence works were being carried out in the States of New South Wales and Victoria. That is not correct. The defence" plan to which the Commonwealth Government is working to-day was drawn up on the best technical advice of military, naval and air force experts. It was co-ordinated by experts of the Defence Committee to meet the requirements of the Commonwealth. It was submitted to the Defence Council which, several years ago, laid down a three-years programme to be carried out in accordance with the financial resources of the Commonwealth. That was completed, and then, just before the elections, a one-year plan was adopted to carry over until the meeting of the next Parliament. Then, about twelve months ago, a further three-year plan was evolved to carry us up to 1940-41. It provides for a further expansion of every branch of our defence organization, and many of the works are to be distributed widely throughout the Commonwealth. It . is futile and ridiculous for honorable members to suggest that defence plans can be developed on a State basis. We must ignore State boundaries, because the Commonwealth must be defended as a unit. Queensland has complained several times that it is a vulnerable area, and that it is not getting its fair share of defence expenditure. Do honorable members suggest that we can differentiate between one State, and another in regard to our naval programme ? The navy is a mobile force, the purpose of which is to protect the whole coast of Australia, and the trade routes for the whole of Australia. The same applies in regard to the air force. Irrespective of where the stations are located, the air force remains a mobile force available for the defence of all parts of the Commonwealth. 1123 JXL 0 0 FROST, Charles Mr Frost - Then why put all the stations in the one State? 1123 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - We have not done so. 1 have already explained how widely the air force squadrons are distributed. There are several squadrons at Laverton and several at Richmond, which are also training stations. Does any honorable member suggest that the money being expended in Darwin is not just as vital in the defence of Queensland as in the defence of any other part of Australia? ft is essential for the protection of Queensland, as well as of other States, that there should be a strong naval and air forces stationed at Darwin. They are probably more valuable there than if stationed at Brisbane. Our whole defence plan is designed to give the Commonwealth the maximum degree of security in the minimum space of time. We cannot establish a defence organization overnight. As for the army, one of the most essential pieces of equipment at the present time is the Bren gun, a light, automatic rifle or machine gun; and we have taken the necessary steps to have Bren guns manufactured at the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. We Iia ve expended hundreds of thousands of pounds in the purchase of the necessary machinery for their manufacture. Our purpose is to make Australia, as far as possible, independent of outside sources of supply. I defy any one, I do not care who he is, to find fault successfully with any phase of our defence organization as it is established to-day. I have read reports in newspapers of statements by so-called military experts, but let those who claim to be experts competent to criticize or contradict the advice that we receive from much higher authorities than they are, come forward and indicate who they are, where they gained the knowledge which entitles them to express opinions, and where lie the weaknesses in our system. If one carefully and impartially examines their writings and- speeches, however, one finds in many cases that they are persons whose endeavours are to create a public sentiment in favour of their own personal interests; also that the schemes they put forward are impracticable, beyond the financial reach of Australia, or already under way. I say definitely and. without hesitation that no honorable member who cares to go with me to my office or to accompany me on an inspection of the organization that is being developed in Australia in the interests of national security, could say that Australia as a nation is not doing well the job of providing for its defence. When one realizes that this Government is providing for the expenditure .on defence of £20,000,000 a year, the great bulk in Australia, one must question the justification of the Leader of the Opposition to say that the Government is doing nothing or that it can show nothing for that expenditure. To answer the Leader of the Opposition, in the brief space of time that I have available, I need only cite the coast defences all around Australia, the organization in the Royal Australian Air Force, expansion of the Navy, and unprecedented development in the inauguration of 'the manufacture of various types of munitions. We have more than doubled the number of employees engaged on the manufacture of new forms of ordnance equipment never manufactured before iu this country. We are striving for development along those lines. Instead of criticizing, as the Leader of the Opposition has done to-day, he should stand up to the utterance which was reported in the Melbourne Age of the 26th March. He is stated in that newspaper to have expressed his approval of the programme announced in the* Prime Minister's broadcast, and to have said that the support of the Labour party could be counted on to provide for the adequate defence of Australia. Despite that utterance, the Leader of the Opposition to-day criticized the Government for having altered its programme. The Government definitely has never departed from the programme that it laid down. Opposition Members. - Oh ! 1123 KWC CP 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr THORBY - If honorable members opposite will allow me to be heard, I shall explain to them that the only alteration that has taken place is a speeding-up of the programme. As the result of the experience that we have gained and of the organization that has been developed, we have brought items of the programme which were previously scheduled for 1939- 40 into the schedule for 1938-39. We are providing to bring items in the 1940- 41 programme into the 1939-40 programme. Our aim is that every £1 that we expend on defence shall be expended at the earliest possible moment. We have learned from experience that the international situation cannot be trusted. Australia is facing too great a risk for it not to be fully prepared to meet any emergency. Accordingly, the Government's programme is designed to organize the defences of this country on a perfectly balanced scale, so that no one section of the defence organization will be developed ahead of the others or that no one section will lag behind. In that way we shall have an efficient organization carefully balanced between the Army, Navy and Air Force, and the supply of munitions, with a definite link with private industry, so that in the event of emergency the great bulk of the engineering establishments will be available to supplement the supply of munitions and equipment of war from the governmental establishments. The skill and brains of the men associated with the private concerns would become in time of need part and parcel of the munitions organization. That is the explanation of the annexes to private establishments and the State railway workshops which are provided for in the budget. In addressing the conference of Premiers held at Canberra on the 29th September last, I explained the defence situation as fully as I properly could. I said, among other things - This prompts me to say that nomajor defence organization can be satisfactorily developed without the full co-operation of the States, and, with a view to securing that assistance, I propose to give a brief outline of some of the more important matters which we have been discussing and planning, partly in co-operation with officers of your respective departments and partly in consultation with representatives of various branches of industry and commerce. After having given a very full description of what was proposed to the Premiers of the States, I secured from each of them an undertaking that he was prepared to co-operate with the Commonwealth Government in any matters of a defence nature whenever either they or their officers could be of assistance. Subsequent to that conference, a meeting was held with the State officers of certain of the departments concerned, and a complete schedule of works was prepared prior to the calling of the most recent meeting of Commonwealth and State Ministers who assembled as a Loan Council. That meeting has been criticized, and what was said has been misquoted and misrepresented. What actually happened was this: The meeting opened as a Loan Council, and an additional sum of £2,000,000 was allocated for defence purposes. That was the first achievement. The representatives of the States unanimously agreed to co-operate with the Commonwealth Government in matters concerning defence. That was the second achievement. The third achievement was that the Premiers agreed to allow their officers to co-operate with officers of the Defence Department with a view to bringing about complete co-operation and the elimination of overlapping whereever it may occur. A complete schedule of works was prepared to, cover each State indicating the types of works to be carried out by the States. They will be works, not only of defence value, but also such as will absorb the unemployed. That is exactly what the Premiers agreed to do. They agreed to offer their technical officers to assist us and to co-operate with us in carrying out defence works of value which would give to the Commonwealth the greatest security that it can possibly have. 1124 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. Sitting suspended from 6.13 to 8 p.m. 1124 KLL Hindmarsh 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN .- The charge against the Government is that it has failed the nation in regard to essential leadership in matters of major public importance and issue. I strongly support the motion that has been moved by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), which challenges the Government ' to prove that it has not forfeited the right to that confidence which this House should repose in the Government of the country, and furthermore to answer the definite and direct charge of having failed to recognize its undoubted obligation to the country, particularly in a time of emergency. The Leader of the Opposition, in a most convincing case, demonstrated the repeated failure of the Government to discharge its obligations to the people of this country. Almost every person who is concerned for the security of Australia and the well-being of its citizens feels that this Government has lived far too long on the honest desire of the people to have practical expression given to public security and welfare. Unfortunately, the Government has failed pathetically in almost every requirement. I ask the country to review its record from its very inception. "What measure of major importance has it placed on the statute-book giving expression to the social and economic wellbeing which is necessary in order that a higher and better standard might be enjoyed by the community generally ? There is not' the slightest evidence of capacity on the part of the Government to serve the people in that way. The promise has repeatedly been made that that requirement would be fulfilled, but the members of the Ministry have been far more concerned about the promotion of their individual claims to place and power than in seeking to give expression to a policy which would1 enhance the wellbeing of all. Contrasting the splendid accomplishments of a Labour government in the sister dominion of New Zealand in the short period of. two years, with the record of the Commonwealth Government during the last seven years, one finds lacking in Australia that leadership which should exist in any enlightened democracy such as Australia has always prided itself ' on being. All that the Government has done, even within the last twelve months, has been to enact, legislation which, while promising to have a far-reaching effect in the promotion of public welfare and security in a social sense, actually places an additional burden on the people, and is totally unwelcome to them. Apart from that single item of legislation, its record is absolutely barren. It has had a lengthy period in which to mend its ways and to set its course on lines which would bring benefit to the people, but it has failed to live up to its promise to give to the people anything in the. nature of a substantial measure of well-being. Honorable members who support the Government definitely feel dissatisfied with the situa- tion. It is useless to try to make it appear that they are wholly satisfied with its record. 1125 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Sir Frederick Stewart - We are at least free to express our opinions. 1125 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - No one knows better than the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir - Frederick Stewart) that I have stated what is a " fact. He has exhibited grave disquietude because the Government has failed to live up to its promise to effect social reforms. He was responsible for devoting special attention to the matter of unemployment, but his persuasive qualities were insufficient to induce the Government to- take, action which would contribute to the solution of that major problem. Eight up to the present moment, it has made no really serious attempt to give to the people of Australia a lead in that most vital matter. We expected to find incorporated in the legislation dealing with national health and pensions insurance a provision to meet this very serious circumstance which possibly has proved as tragic as any factor in the distress and continuous anxiety it has brought to thousands of homes. To-day the number of unemployed is over 100,000, in a country which requires the services of every person capable of contributing usefully to its general development and well-being. The Government has no desire to implement a policy to meet that situation. When it is spoken to regarding unemployment, it says that that is not the concern of the. national Parliament, and that the States must shoulder the responsibility in respect of it. It finds it very convenient to place the onus on some other body or individual. F hope that the honorable member for Parramatta, in contributing to this debate, will be as frank as he has been at other times. He must surely be seised of the seriousness of the position to as. great a degree as any man could be. We asked for leadership from the Government in respect of the matter of a 40-hour working week, but while professing to believe in the principle of a 40-hour working week, it has made no attempt to give a practical lead to the country upon the matter, claiming that it is one for the determination of Arbitration Courts and other industrial tribunals. It might at least have followed the example set by the Government of New Zealand, by seeing that the principle was applied to governmental services. There arc other matters which are arousing the concern of the people of this country. A very serious problem is presented by foreign migration to this country, yet upon that particular matter the Government has no policy and is not prepared to move. We have repeatedly brought under notice the serious results associated with the influx of a tremendous number of foreign migrants, who in certain portions of the continent are actually establishing foreign settlements and speak only a foreign language. The Government has made no effort to convince these people that, while living in an Australian community, Australian standards must be observed by them. Instead of seeking to protect the welfare of Australia by imposing a check on this class of migration, it is prepared to allow, without let or hindrance, the entry of any person desirous of making Australia his or her domicile, and has failed to recognize the need for imposing some restraint on persons of foreign nationality, in view of the existence of means to introduce problems which have been the source of continued difficulty and crises overseas. When I returned to Australia from a visit abroad, what struck me most forcibly was the universality of our language and the absence of any form of racial disability or difference. The principal desire of our people is the promotion of the ideal of & great Australian citizenship. Unfortunately the Government has given no leadership on this important subject. I fear that it has allowed the nationals of other countries to take an unfair advantage of our lack of regulations in respect of immigration. This may become a menace to Australia. The political and social reactions on our people may prove disastrous. The pathetically futile attempts of the Government to promote improved trade relations with other countries also bring it under condemnation. It is less than twelve months since one of the most influential delegations that the Government was capable of arranging, went abroad for the purpose of arranging reciprocal trade agreements with other countries. The party included the Mini- ster for Commerce (Sir Earle Page), the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies), and the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White). These honorable gentlemen and their retinue were absent from Australia for a longer period than almost any other similar delegation. They travelled over greater distances, and visited more countries than other delegations. Unfortunately, they returned to Australia practically empty handed, and the Government can show the taxpayers nothing to offset the expense that was incurred. Another evidence of the lack of leadership in the Government is the failure of the Prime Minister .to give effect to his election promise to bring down a bill to provide for a reformed monetary and banking policy. This, in my opinion, is a most serious lapse. Still another promise that the Prime Minister has failed to honour calls for our attention. During the election campaign before last, and also during the last election campaign, the Prime Minister gave a definite promise that if the Government were returned to office, a measure would be introduced to Parliament to afford assistance for persons who desired to provide homes for themselves. We are all very well aware of the serious shortage of housing in this country. Had there been any real leadership in the Government a policy to cope with this lamentable state of affairs could easily have been devised. But nothing has been done. The Prime Minister's promises have been disregarded in this respect as in many others. The time is long overdue for a re-shuffle of the Cabinet, but the Ministers who should be retired are those who hold the principal portfolios, and not the junior Ministers. That the Government lacks leadership is the opinion not only of the Opposition, but also of certain gentlemen who actually hold Cabinet portfolios. The Prime Minister himself declared at the recent Premiers Conference that the people of Australia were waiting for a lead. As the right honorable gentleman has been in office for about seven years, he has had an abundant opportunity to give the people a lead. That he has failed to do go must surely reveal his incapacity. The Minister for Commerce, who is second in the order of precedence in the Cabinet, has also had a few words to say on this subject recently. He was reported in the Adelaide press of yesterday's date as having said - To be a real leader of a nation's affairs, one must have personality. Personality plus plan make up the essential qualities of leadership. The Bruce-Page Government and the Lyons Government survived for so long because of their long-range plans. I see the Assistant Minister (Mr. Archie Cameron) smiling. His own position in the Cabinet may be challenged very shortly .if a certain gentleman in South Australia, who at present holds a high position in State politics, should decide to seek membership of the Commonwealth Parliament. Should that happen, the Assistant Minister will have to look to his laurels. . The " long-range plans " to which the Minister for Commerce referred are of such a long range that they have not yet been sighted. This causes me to suggest that the people of Australia would welcome a little more honesty and sincerity in the utterances of the leaders of this Government. It appears to me that Ministers have made up their minds that they can deal as they like with a credulous public. So they make these cheap professions of noble sentiments and exploit the patriotic feelings of the people to the very limit. The Attorney-General has also made a notable speech recently on the subject of leadership. Possibly he has become impatient that he has not before now attained to the first position in the Cabinet. As far back as 1935 he was freely spoken of as the immediate successor to the present Prime Minister, and I have no doubt that that right honorable gentleman is holding to omeo a little too long for the comfort of the Attorney-General. In an address delivered at the Constitutional Club in Sydney recently, the Attorney-General gave his ideas on the essentials of leadership. He observed - Democracy, to maintain its place in the world, must provide leadership as inspiring as that of dictator countries. Is the leadership of Australia not as inspiring as that of other countries? If not, has the Attorney-General the requisite qualities to provide the leadership? The right honorable gentleman also said that governments should not hesitate to take the people into their confidence in times of emergency. He added - The lessons of the last crisis are lessons to myself, to my colleagues, and to the governments of this country. There can be no doubt, therefore, that the right honorable gentleman had in mind the state of affairs in Australia when he made that speech. Moreover, the newspaper organ which was mainly responsible for the formation of the Lyons Government, and which, beyond any question, made it possible for the Prime Minister to secure the leadership of the United Australia party, is also dissatisfied with the present state of affairs, and is manoeuvring to secure an alteration. 1127 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - There is no . need to look at me; I had nothing to do with it. 1127 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - The Assistant Minister must take his full share of responsibility for the present state of affairs. In years gone by he was a caustic critic of the Government. He spoke frankly about things as he found them. But it is remarkable how docile a man becomes when pay and position are involved! As a member of the Cabinet the honorable member must accept full responsibility for its actions and those misfortunes that might result from criticism levelled against the Prime Minister and other responsible Ministers. In a. sub-leader headed "Leadership Demanded " the Melbourne Herald said - The Australian Government has reached a stage at which it borders on helplessness to face Australia's most commanding and solemn duty. Disappointment and astonishment - these are the public feelings following upon the futile defence conference between the Commonwealth and State Governments. Democratic leadership in Australia seldom appeared in so pool a light. These are rather challenging remarks from a public journal largely responsible for putting the present Government in office. The article concludes by saying that during the recent critical weeks the Australian Government failed Australia. These are rather strong words, and in my opinion they justify the criticism which has been voiced by honorable members on this side of the House to-day. During the whole period that this Government has been in office it has failed to give adequate consideration to matters which vitally affect the welfare of the people of this country and mean so much to its security and economic welfare. The Government has failed lamentably to live up to the promises it has made, and it has failed to recognize its undoubted duty to serve the best interests of the country and give a lead to the States so essential at this particular time. Because of its shortcomings, and also in view of the fact that the views expressed by honorable members on this side of the House are shared by many supporters of the Government, I say that the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition to-day is amply justified, and that every honorable member of this Parliament should recognize his undoubted obligation to see that a new government is given office which will be capable of fulfilling its promises and carrying out it3 obligations to the people of this country generally. 1128 009MC Fawkner 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT .- The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) has moved a motion of censure against the Government and since early this afternoon after its carefully planned attack, the heavy artillery of the Opposition has been sending over its shells. Most of them, however, have been completely misdirected or, on landing have proved ineffectual " duds ". I do not suggest that there are no points to which criticism of government policy could not be directed - I hope to deal with one or two matters myself in a few moments - but if the alternative to the present Administration is a government consisting of honorable members opposite I only wish to say that although Australia has passed through many hazards in recent years, and some very serious ones in recent months, I can imagine no greater hazard for the future progress and security of this country than a government consisting of honorable members opposite. The Leader of the Opposition directed his attack mainly to the point that the Government is embarking on colossal defence expenditure at a time when apparently in his opinion such expenditure is not justified. With that charming obliviousness to the realities of the Australian situation which has marked the Opposition's defence policy in recent years he suggested that since four heads of governments had arranged the Munich Pact the security of the world is to-day so very much greater than was previously the case that the Government "might well slow down on its defence programme. A striking contrast is provided by the attitude of the Leader of the Labour Opposition in Great Britain. Since the Munich Pact was signed, the Labour Opposition in Great Britain has been critical' not of the fact that the British Government is accelerating its defence programme, but that it is not going either far enough or fast enough. It is undeniable that there are weaknesses of leadership in any democracy, and this democracy of ours is no exception. Contrasted with the leadership available under dictatorships, democracy must always be lacking something of decisiveness, something of speed in which decisions can be given effect, and something of ability to give effective execution to the leader's policy when it has been announced. That is part of the price we pay for the privileges we enjoy under -a democracy. We strive to resist leadership of the -dictatorial brand which may give us speedier results but at the same time achieves its objective at the expense of the freedom of the individual. That is a typical drawback in any democracy, and particularly in a democracy such as we enjoy in Australia. We have not only the usual democratic checks upon an elected government's power to give immediate effect to decisions, and its inability to override swiftly, mass objections even when they are minority objections, but in this country, there is an even greater disadvantage in that, we have the present division of power between the Commonwealth Government and the State governments. As long as those limitations of power exist, as long as the Commonwealth does not possess full powers over trade and Commerce, industry and health, just so long will leadership of the central government, no matter how dominating or persistent the leader himself may be, lack to some degree ability to give full expression to the will of the Government. I admit that at present we are not getting the best results available to us, even admitting the existence of these checks and limitations upon the central government. There - has been a deplorable tendency on the part of federal governments - and I do not except other federal governments - and of State governments, to shelter behind statements that, because of constitutional limitations, they are unable to give effect to certain policies. I feel very genuinely that the Federal Government has not in recent years given a sufficiently definite lead on such matters as employment, housing, health and other matters, in respect of which there do unquestionably exist constitutional checks, but which at the same time should not take away from the Federal Government responsibility for giving a national lead. We should have done a great deal more than we have done up to the present. Take the question of health administration alone. From 1926 up to the present year, there has not been one conference of Federal and State Ministers of Health, and no national health programme covering the whole field of health, or anything in the nature of a national fitness campaign such as has been inaugurated in Great Britain, and, more recently, in New Zealand, and which has been such a prominent feature of most of the European countries in post-war years. I do not wish to labour in detail OU] shortcomings in this regard. I content myself by saying that there have been serious shortcomings, but not such as would entitle honorable members on this side of the House to say that the Government had lost their confidence. The present Government has been in office for seven years and has brought this country from the depths of what was probably the worst economic crisis which it had ever known to the heights of relative, prosperity. While the Government has been in office Australia has passed through two very serious international crises and it has enjoyed the confidence of the masses of the people of Australia. My criticism is directed to the Government not in. the sense that it has forfeited the confidence of this Parliament or the people of Australia; but I do suggest, however, that the Government has not made the best available use of the material in the ranks of Government supporters. Opposition Members. - Hear, hear! 1129 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - The Government is not making the best use of private members by failing to appoint select committees, and to re-constitute the Public Accounts Committee. I desire now to deal with one aspect of Government policy as announced to-day, that is, the new proposals for the militia forces of the Commonwealth. We have seen a remarkable change in defence policy in recent weeks and, more particularly, in the last few days. The defence policy in more recent years has been that, our first line of defence has been our own navy working in conjunction with the British Navy and an efficient air force to repel sporadic raids upon this country. The role of the militia was to be a relatively unimportant one. It ranked last in order of importance and priority, and really only existed as a nucleus which could be expanded in time of national emergency. If anything can be inferred from the most recent statements of defence policy it is that there has been a new outlook in the minds of the Government's defence advisers. Those advisers now hold the view that the risk qf actual violation of our territory is not the remote possibility which for years we were let to believe it was. Some of us in the past did not attempt to disguise the concern we felt at the state of the militia forces. We believed that they were an extravagance, because they were inefficient, and because there was no evidence that any useful result was being obtained for the money expended. Always, however, we were met by the argument that the defence policy of the Commonwealth was such that there would be no justification for increasing the militia forces; that increased expenditure was not warranted. Therefore, we were compelled to accept the voluntary system as being the utmost, that the defence of the country required. The changed outlook in regard to possible invasion, however, has completely altered the situation. If there is even a possible risk of invasion in the life of this generation, it is not sufficient that we should continue with our present haphazard militia system. If, as one expert adviser suggests, the mini-, mum force required is 70,000 men, We should be assured that we have that number of men in the forces, all of them thoroughly fit, properly trained and fully equipped. The Government proposes that the additional men shall he raised in accordance with the existing voluntary system. It is interesting to speculate whether, in reaching that decision, the Government acted on the best military advice available. Recently, the Government brought General Squires to Australia for the specific purpose of examining our military system, and to give us the benefit of his advice regarding what changes he thought desirable. No indication was given in the speech of the Prime Minister, or the Minister for Defence, as to the nature of the preliminary report by General Squires; but widely circulated newspaper reports that have- not so far been contradicted, are to the effect that General Squires advised that the only reliable and efficient, method of ensuring the military safety of the country was to re-institute the system of compulsory training. If that be so, and the Government has disregarded the recommendation because of political considerations, it is taking upon itself a very grave responsibility. 1130 KMZ 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr Martens - Is the honorable member in favour of compulsory training? 1130 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - Emphatically, yes, and I have never sought to disguise the fact. There is only one advantage in the voluntary militia system. It involves no unpleasant political complications. But this is no time for national leaders to be concerned with such consequences, if by so doing they are placing their country in danger. The compulsory system has many advantages. In the first place, it ensures that all members of the forces shall be fit. In the old days when compulsory training was in force, 32 per cent, of the men called up for service were rejected on medical grounds. Another advantage of the compulsory system is that it ensures full and regular attendance at parades and camps, so that manoeuvres can be satisfactorily carried out. It also ensures that every year a third of the book strength is added to the trained reserve. That is a tremendous advantage, because thereby we could be building up n body of trained manhood ready to' meet any emergency which may arise. At present, there are in Australia 1,500,000 men between the ages of 18 and 45. How many of them are physically fit? Howmany are trained for defence work should they be called upon? If the compulsory system of training had been in operation over a number of years, we should know almost to a man the number available, the positions to which they were adapted in civil life, and also, to some extent, their physical condition. We could then form a fairly reliable estimate of the effective man-power of the Commonwealth. However, the Government, in its wisdom, proposes to raise a militia force of 70,000 men - that is double .the present number - by the voluntary method. With regret, I suggest that the Government will have great difficulty in securing that number. Recently, a drive was inaugurated to bring the strength of the militia up from 28,000 to 35,000. It was successful, but there is a great difference between raising a force from 28,000 to 35,000, and raising it from 35,000 to 70,000. Moreover, unless radical changes are effected, we shall still have all the weaknesses of the present system, namely, a lower physical standard, an attendance at camps of only 60 per cent, irregular attendance at parades, and the difficulties experienced by officers in conducting manoeuvres efficiently. I suggest in all seriousness, that, if the Government persists with the voluntary system, it should, at any rate, make certain radical alterations in the interests of efficiency. Even if the voluntary system is retained, all men between the ages of 18 and 45 should be compelled to register. A record should be made of the age, address, and occupation of each mau, together with any particular technical ability which he might have. I believe the Leader of the Opposition advocated that there should be a complete survey of the man-power of the Commonwealth. As well as being registered, all men should also be examined physically. If the conditions of training in the militia forces are altered, as I hope they will be, all those men between the ages of 18 and 21 who come up for registration should have pointed out to them the civic obligation which rests upon them to join the forces. There is a definite obligation upon the men of a democratic country, no less than upon those of other countries to defend it against aggression. Even in the early days of federation the Defence Act contained the following provision in section 59: - All male inhabitants of Australia (excepting those who are exempt from service in the Defence Force) who have resided therein for six months and are British subjects and arc between 'the ages of eighteen and CO years shall, in time of war, be liable to serve in the Citizen Forces. Honorable members opposite have had much to say about conscription, but they have never challenged that section of the act, and I hope that they will not challenge it now. There is an obligation on every citizen to equip himself to defend his country in time of need. I believe that if the young men were asked whether they were prepared to serve for a period of three years under the conditions which are contemplated, many thousands of them who, at the present time, either through inertia, or because they do not recognize the urgency of the matter, have not come forward as volunteers, would accept as a voluntary obligation a period of service in the military forces. It would have to be made clear to them that, in enlisting for voluntary service with the militia forces for three years, they were expected to remain in training for that period. Unless that was done, we should have the ridiculous spectacle that we see now of men joining the forces, obtaining new uniforms and equipment, and then, after the novelty has worn off, going out of training after six months or so. If this matter were put 'before the young men as a definite obligation, there would, be some prospect of raising the 70,000 men which the Government deems to be necessary for home defence. 1131 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Does the honorable member himself belong .to the militia forces? 1131 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - I served with the militia forces for three years, and I do not ask that any one should do more. Why should a few public-spirited men shoulder a responsibility that belongs equally to all the able-bodied men in the Commonwealth? If the percentage of physical unfitness is as high now as it was before and during the war, there is a large field available for intensive physical training to bring our manhood up to the required standard. There would be not only a distinct benefit to be obtained from discipline, but also physical advantage, particularly to those who at present do not measure up to the normal physical standards. 1131 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green - Does the honorable gentleman believe in Saturday afternoon training ? 1131 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - I do not. In that respect, I am in full agreement with the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green). At the present time, one of the most irksome features of the militia system is the Saturday afternoon training period. I strongly advocate the elimination, as far as possible, of half-day training periods, because a period of training in camp is by far the most valuable military training that a man can receive. I think, however, that camp life could be made a great deal more attractive than it was when I was in the militia. I certainly do not advocate a return to the old system which was tedious and irksome to the great majority of trainees. With imagination and some knowledge of the psychology of young men, camp life could be made not only thoroughly instructive, but also attractive. 1131 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Does the honorable gentleman believe in conscription? 1131 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - I am certainly not in favour of conscription of men in this country for service overseas, but I am in favour of service within this country of men for the defence of the country should it be invaded, as was originally contemplated in the Defence Act. That is all 1 advocate and that is all that, to my knowledge, has 'been advocated, at least during my term in this Parliament, by any honorable member who supports this Government. I feel strongly that this matter of the training of our manhood should not be permitted to resolve into a question of political expediency so far as the Government is concerned, and I do not consider that we should be asking the young manhood of this country to shoulder a burden by asking them to accept their part of the responsibility for the defence of Australia. We have great possessions in. Australia, not merely material possessions, but the possessions of personal liberty, which are worth defending; and, if our expert advisers tell us that we need a strong militia, the young Australian men should be prepared to do their part. We, in this House, should accept pur responsibility to ensure that the militia system is efficient, effective, and one that will thoroughly safeguard the people and this country. 1132 L07 Werriwa 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI .- . If the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) had. carried his argument a little further what he said would have borne the appearance of sincerity. He advocated a survey of the manhood and physical fitness of Australia; he should have gone further and advocated a survey . of the material wealth. There are, in this country, hundreds of millions of pounds of foreign capital which has to be defended, and if our manhood is to be called upon to defend that wealth, the financial means by which that wealth is defended should be provided by that wealth. I remind the honorable gentleman that the Australian democracy of which he is so proud is not- beneficial to the unemployed, or to the men engaged on relief work. I am reminded to-night of those people who, during the conscription campaign were known as " would-go-godders ". They were so known because they were always saying, " Would to God I were young enough to go ", but would never dig into their pockets or bank accounts in order to show evidence of the patriotism of which they boasted. The people who are so ready to call upon young manhood to lay down its life are never willing to finance the business of war except by loans at high interest. The more the dead the higher the interest! I do not intend to dwell on that aspect, because my time is limited and I have other matters on which to censure the Government. I concur with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) that the Government has shown a lamentable lack of leadership. I go so far as to say that in the two parties which constitute the Government there is not one man who is sufficiently capable, .or sufficiently determined, to face the problems which confront this country. Before and since the last election) and particularly in the last few weeks, the Government has promised to do the things which it claims are essential to the best interests of this country, but nothing has ever been done. This Parliament is called together allegedly to do something and it is adjourned sometimes the next day with nothing accomplished. That is because the Government has no leader and the Ministry is unable to make up its collective mind. The capacity, of. the Government to do nothing reminds me of the likening, by one public critic, of the Government to a blindfolded blind man groping in a dark room for a black cat which is not there. The Government shows the same futility of purpose as a dog chasing its tail. Its policy is aptly summed up in the words, "Never do to-day what you can put off until to-morrow ". There is only one thing in .which Ministers excel, and that is roaming around the world poking their noses into the problems of other peoples whilst they refuse to do what they were sent here to do - govern Australia. The base of a healthy nation is a healthy people, but this Government has consistently refused to tackle the lamentable conditions which exist as the result of unemployment and semi-unemployment in Australia. I include in the two categories every person who is engaged on relief work and even include those persons who work on the basic wage because that wage is npt nearly sufficient to provide them and their families with the necessaries of life. I see opposite me the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart). That honorable gentleman has almost shed tears in this chamber in speaking about the problem of the absorption of youth of Australia into industry. I have heard him and other honorable gentlemen opposite speak in different parts of the country about that problem, but I have never heard that they have done anything concrete to induce the Commonwealth Government to accept the responsibility for the solution of the problem. The expenditure of a few thousand pounds on vocational training is a sheer futility. Something more substantial than that is needed. A great deal has been said about the need to provide for the defence of this country, but it can only be defended by a manhood strong in health and vigor. It is tragic that I should now have to repeat what has been said on countless occasions, not only by myself, but also by other public men. That is that one cannot rear a healthy nation from mothers and fathers who are stunted by malnutrition. In the face of the malnutrition which is rampant in this country it is futile to talk about calling upon our manhood to defend it. The honorable member for Fawkner said that young men should be trained, but he should have gone to the root of the trouble and advocated a policy by which the adequate training of those young men could be undertaken. That policy consists in the making of a strong and healthy people by the provision of means under which mothers * and children will have proper care and attention from the time of procreation. In that way, the diseases and troubles which are. inherent in the conditions under which children are brought into the world would be eliminated within the course of a generation or two. If there is anything which this Government could do to develop this country and make itself reliant it is that which I have urged. Not only is the Government failing to recognize its obligation to undertake that policy, but it is also perpetuating the trouble by allowing the continuation of the system of rationed relief work in the States, even on works undertaken for defence purposes by the State governments with Commonwealth funds. When the Prime Minister was asked whether the Government would ensure that the works carried out by the States would provide full time work, he said that neither ho nor any of his Ministers would interfere in the conditions of the rationing in the States to-day. That means that in New South Wales there will be nothing else but rationing and part-time jobs for the unemployed on works undertaken with money provided by this Government. The Commonwealth Government is perpetuating, in the name of patriotism and loyalty to this country, the most degrading conditions which it would be possible to place upon a people. I could produce statistics and talk for hours to prove my contentions in this matter, but there is no need for me to do so ; the proof has been given so often before. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) in his budget speech, and other honorable gentlemen opposite, have tried to spread the belief that unemployment has shrunk by using the figures supplied by the Commonwealth 'Statistician. Those figures are entirely wrong, and the Government should' tell the Commonwealth Statistician that until he can compile accurate records of the unemployment he should refrain from making further returns. The unemployment statistics are based only on the returns from a few unions. They take no cognizance of the fact that there are tens of thousands of young men who have never had employment, and who accordingly have never registered with a union. I can prove to every honorable member opposite from the Prime Minister down, if they should accompany me, that far from it being true that there is less unemployment now, the number of unemployed around Sydney has swollen tremendously. I agree with what the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) said in respect of the failure of the Commonwealth Government to implement a housing policy as was promised in at least two policy speeches. In one policy speech the Prime Minister promised that £20,000,000 would be expended on the provision of houses, but not one tent was put up. The next promise was that £10,000,000 would 'be provided, but not ten million farthings have been spent. I invite honorable members to traverse the portion of my electorate beginning at Helensburgh or Waterfall, to see the conditions under which families are living in that wonderful district. The only thing which mars its glorious beauty are the habitations in which men, women and little children are herded; they are an outrage on natural beauty. In the city of Sydney, two or three families are compelled to live in the one house. At Port Kembla will be found 20 or 30 "guests" in a four or five-roomed house, the sexes being herded together as they were in the bad old days of 100 and 150 years ago in Great Britain and on the continent of Europe. Every day there are evictions from houses in the suburbs of Sydney. Nothing is more urgent in Australia today than the provision of workers' homes, yet the Government stands by and does nothing to relieve the position. Two or three families frequently have to pool their resources to enable them to pay the rent of a five- or six-roomed house. The rents charged by the grasping landlords and building companies ' for ordinary workmen's houses in Sydney have risen by from 9s. to 12s. a week in the last few months. No worker on the basic wage with a couple of children can secure a house worth living in under 22s. or 25s. a week, and one with a larger family has to pay up to 30s. a week. This is a physical impossibility, and the result will be the introduction into this country of that terrible system which threatened to eat into the very vitals of the civilization of the older world, namely, the herding together of two or three families in the one house,, and, what offers the greatest threat to this nation, the herding of the sexes in close proximity to one another, because they must have a roof over their heads. This is the deadliest threat that could be aimed, even at civilization itself, yet the Government does nothing hut talk of building battleships and putting guns around the coast. The guns ought to be trained on some of the landlords who are perpetuating these conditions. If that were done, I would help to man them. It is hypocritical humbug to say, " Populate or perish." The Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Hughes) and the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) continually use that phrase. Let them go into the slums and offer the advice to the people who live in them. They would be rightly cursed if they did so. How can a nation be expected to develop under these conditions ? The Government hides away from these things. I have often said that if poverty would only parade itself as wealth does in its arrogance, something would have to be done about it; but it shrinks away like a wounded thing, and hides itself in a hole. Because it does not offend the aesthetic sense of honorable members opposite, they forget all about it and are only too pleased to refrain from doing anything in respect of it. Of what use is it to talk about the defence of the country and the development of ite manhood in circumstances such as these ? The Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) told us all about the guns he is putting around Australia, the aeroplanes that are being built, and the battleship that is to be purchased; I suppose it will be an oil burner. The day on which an enemy fired the first shot not an aeroplane would take the air because there would be nothing with which to fuel it. The Defence Department has not one month's supply of fuel. If the whole of the transport system were paralysed by the stoppage of the running of every motor car and other oilburning vehicle, there would not be sufficient fuel to fly 500 aeroplanes for even a short period. I see the honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) sitting opposite to me. That honorable gentleman was handed his electorate on a silver plate because of the proposal of the Government in respect of the Newnes shale oil field. What has happened to that proposition? I recall raising this matter in 1925 and 1926, when Mr. Charlton was Leader of the Opposition, and it has been raised periodically since, but what has been done in regard to it? A large number of aircraft is to be built, but they will remain on the ground. Reference has been made to the blocking of trade routes. It would only need a few oil tankers to be sunk, to leave Australia without supplies of oil fuel. There is coal from the north of Queensland to Victoria, from the coast of New South Wales to beyond Bourke, yet the Government will not exploit these resources to provide the nation with oil fuel, because it is controlled by the oil kings. The Premier of New South Wales went to England and brought back a man to see what could be done in connexion with the formation of a company to extract oil from coal, but on his arrival it was learned that he was one of the controllers of one of the biggest oil rings in the world. That is typical of what has been done all along. Efforts to locate well oil in Australia were sabotaged by the en- gagement of interested oil magnates to engage in the search. That sort of thing is to be expected only from the inmates of a mad house. Thirteen of the inmates of Kenmore would do a better job than this Government is doing to-day. Mention qf oil reminds me of the wrongful exploitation of motor car owners by the collection of a tax for the establishment of motor car manufacture in Australia. The receipts must now total nearly £1,000,000. I wonder if the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has used the money for some other governmental purpose? It is to that kind of trickery that the Auditor-General sometimes refers - faked figures in the budget. I can recall sitting in this Parliament nearly twenty years ago when a tariff was brought down designed to encourage the building of farm implements in Australia. One of the arguments which the honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse), the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory), and a few other free traders trotted out, was that the International harvester, imported from the United States of America, could be purchased for £98, that £120 would have to be paid for the machine of Australian manufacture, and that the duty would raise the cost of the imported machine to £135. They failed to realize that the American combine was prepared to sell its harvester for £98 because machines were being manufactured in Australia, the charge to the Argentine farmer being £160 because the machine was not manufactured in that country. The same argument applies, to the motor car industry. When a commencement is made with manufacture in Australia, the price of imported cars will drop by at least £100. The Government will take no action, because it is subject to the control and dictation of the vested interests which, bring foreign cars into this country. The price of the Chrysler car is £490 in Australia, and £175 in the United States of America, a difference of £315. These figures have been. supplied by Holdens. The Dodge car costs £404 in Australia and £139 in the United States of America, a difference of £26>5. The De Soto costs £465 in Australia and £162 in the United States of America, a difference of £303. 1135 JWE 0 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - Is the honorable gentleman taking exchange into consideration? 1135 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - The honorable gentleman always introduces something that does not matter. The exchange merely gives his friends, the financiers, a rake-off. The fact cannot be denied, that Australians have to pay £404 for a car which in the United States of America coats only £139. The Ford V8 costs £343 in Australia and £104 in the United States of America, a difference of 6239. The Hudson costs £478 in Australia and £156 in the United States of America, a difference of £322. The Hupmobile costs £645 in Australia and £163 in the United States of America, a difference of £482. The Lafayette costs £450 in Australia and £135 in the United States of America, a difference of £315. The Packard costs £750 in Australia and £214 in the United States of America, a difference of £536. The Plymouth costs £411 in Australia and £109 in the United States of America, a difference of £302. The 25 horse-power Studebaker costs £485 in Australia and £145 in the United States of America, a difference of £340. The 30 horse-power Studebaker costs £745 in Australia and £203 in the United States of America, a difference of £542. The Terraplane costs £415 in Australia and £134 in the United States of America, a difference of £281. 1135 JVR 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr Nairn - What has this to do with a motion of want of confidence? 1135 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - This Government has collected £1,000,000 from motor-car owners in Australia with the object of encouraging Australian manufacture and thus putting an end to this burglary of the Australian people. This is one other governmental activity in which it has failed. What has the Government done in regard to the drought problem in Australia? The white man has lived long enough in this country to know from experience that periodic droughts are the natural order of things. During the State elections in New South Wales, I went right down into She south-western portion of that State - the far Riverina. I visited Balranald, Hay, Deniliquin and other places. I traversed hundreds of square miles of parched desert country, with a river running right through it. I had previously seen the fertility of Yanco, Griffith and Leeton - similar country, but irrigated. I saw at Balranald household gardens which were better than anything I have seen around Sydney or even in Canberra. In Deniliquin, I saw flowers as big as my head. They grew in such luxuriance because the ground had been irrigated. But I also saw sheep in country nearby dying in thousands. If I had my way, I should gaol the squatters for cruelty to dumb animals. To save the life of the sheep in a time of drought the squatters only need to irrigate a relatively small area and plant lucerne. This would provide fodder for the sheep when it was needed. If this Government possessed any degree of leadership whatever *it would force these squatters to irrigate part of their property so that sheep would not suffer in this cruel way when droughts occur. For my part, I would take the land away from squatters who leave their sheep to depend solely upon rainfall. What is going on in other parts of the world as well as in this country, reveals very clearly that we are tobogganing to a depression very much worse than that from which we have scarcely emerged. The Government has declared that any amount of money can be found for defence, but apparently nothing can ' be found for constructive work. The trade balance of Australia this year is worse by £30,000,000 than it was last year. Since this Government has been in office expenditure on Commonwealth public works has declined by £25,000,000. In consequence of the dictatorial attitude that the Government has adopted at Loan Council meetings concerning the works programmes of the State governments, expenditure on State public works has declined by £85,000,000. This means that, in the period under notice, £110,000,000 less has been expended on public works than in the previous period. Happenings in the United States of America, Great Britain and other countries display all the portents of depression, but this Government is not doing anything whatever to meet the situation, except talk about spending .money on defence. The plain fact is that if this Government has control of Australia much longer no one will want the country. We shall be told we can keep it. The Prime Minister was recently asked by a deputation to find some means to abolish the slum areas in our big cities, but he replied that no money could be found foi this purpose; all the available money was needed for defence works, lt seems that our unemployment 'problem is to be left to take care of itself, and that our youth are to be left to languish in idleness and hopelessness. Money can be obtained for defence works, but not for construction works. Only a few days ago, according to a press report, the Treasurer (Mr. Casey) said publicly - Let me state at once as definitely as i cab that money has been found for defence, money is being found for defence, and money will be found for defence - just as much and just as fast as it is wanted. Let me state, too, just as definitely and just as unequivocally, that the Commonwealth Bank Hoard does not stand in the way of raising money for defence, and would be swept out of the way if it attempted to do so. The honorable gentleman made it very clear that the Government would sweep away the Commonwealth Bank Board if it attempted to withhold money required for defence works. This shows that the Government can obtain money if it wishes to do so.. I want to know why it will not raise money for constructive and reproductive works. I have no doubt whatever that if, in the course of the next month or two, a gold-field were discovered in Central Australia similar to those discovered years ago at Kalgoorlie and Coolgardie, and more recently in New Guinea, steps would be taken within 24 hours, to build a city in the desert replete with water works, roads and all necessary facilities, including picture shows. Men would rush to the field, ruin their lives working in metalliferous dust, and be sent off to a sanatorium. After the gold had been won, holes would be dug in the ground, called vaults, and the gold would be buried back into the ground. A start would then be made to print paper money. But even if gold to the value of £1,000,000,000 were discovered, it would not of itself make a blade of grass grow. What we need in this country is the development of our great natural resources. The use of men and machinery to develop our resources and produce wealth is what is needed. Gold, after all, is inanimate; To think that gold is synonymous with, progress is an idea stupid enough to originate in the madhouse. What we need is the application of the energy of our people to the production of wealth. To suggest that the expenditure of money on really productive enterprises is inflation and therefore dangerous is ridiculous. Any man who made such a statement could be truly described as a lunatic. What is dangerous is the expansion of credit by the means Germany adopted in order to destroy the effect of the Versailles treaty. We all know how the currency was inflated in Germany at a time when, in actual fact, the productivity of the country was declining. We must release the productive energy of our people, and provide work for those who are unemployed, if we expect our country, to prosper. [Leave to continue given.] r In actual fact the great majority of our people have very little to look forward to in life. Even if we leave out of account altogether the relief workers, and those who are unemployed, and think only of the basic wage men and those who are but little removed from the basic wage, we are faced with hundreds of thousands of people who have very little prospect of anything from Monday morning until Saturday night except grinding hard work. If this Government possessed even the rudiments of leadership it could formulate a policy which would in very truth cause the desert to blossom as the rose. Such a policy would mean the economic salvation of the country. We should then not have to drag emigrants to Australia. Men and women from other lands would be falling over themselves to get here in order to participate in the prosperity that would abound. The great natural resources of this country could be utilized to provide a happy home, not only for the few millions of people here, but also for millions of others from overseas. Then there would be no need to talk about forcing people to fight for their country. Every man, woman and child in an Australia developed in that way would be proud to defend their country. As it is, two-thirds of our working people are engaged in relief work, or are living on the dole, or are receiving the basic wage or very near it. They are living under conditions of drudgery which are appalling. The way to encourage patriotism is to develop the natural resources of the country, remove hardship from the masses of the people, and take the fear of to-morrow out of their minds. Only in this way shall we be able to recreate the race. 1137 KZF Barton 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE .- We have just listened to a remarkable oration from the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini). He dished out for us the tripe that is served to people in the Domain year in and year out by those who claim to speak for the Labour party. The honorable gentleman has recently been elevated to a high position in the executive of his party. Probably his colleagues are delighted with his utterance. The Leader of the Opposition has moved - That, because of its lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. As the honorable gentleman had given notice that he intended to speak to this motion to-day, I attended the sitting expecting to hear some sound reasons in support of his view; but I have never previously listened to such a lamentable display of ignorance and stupidity. Of course, the honorable . gentleman's language was such as we might expect from a journalist of his ability; but his speech was a complete failure, for it did not provide any proof whatever of the contention in his motion. We have just passed through a serious international crisis, and it might have been expected that the Leader of the Opposition would discuss matters of vital consequence to the people ; but, at. is was, he simply wasted the time of Parliament. He entirely failed to demonstrate any lack of leadership on the part of the Government. As for the honorable member for Werriwa, for whom the honorable member for ' Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) had to step down from the executive of the party, the least said the better. If the speeches of honorable gentlemen opposite reveal the kind of leadership that they would give the country, then we should be wise to disregard their views completely. The Leader of the Opposition had. something to say in Sydney a day or two ago about leadership. He attended the Labour party conference and urgedthe representatives there assembled to allow the members of the Parliamentary Labour party to select their own leader. The honorable gentleman was given a great reception at the beginning of his speech, but his concluding remarks were received in stony silence. He had hardly left the hall when Mr. Lang walked in. I do not know whether they were afraid to meet each other or not. The conference gave Mr. Lang a wonderful reception and when he moved his motion the Leader of the Opposition was left high and dry. Mr. Lang secured over 400 out of a total of 600 votes. In my opinion, the Leader of the Labour movement in this Parliament has not the ability to lead a flock of hens in a farmyard. His attempt this afternoon to prove that this Government is lacking in leadership was one of the most lamentable efforts I have ever listened to. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) and the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) referred to unemployment and housing and, in general terms, said that ruin faced us everywhere. They charged the Commonwealth Government with responsibility for all of these things; but irresponsible statements of that kind will carry no weight with the people. I trust that this country shall never be inflicted with a government composed of members of the Labour movement. Mr. Lang may be a fool, but after the fiasco last week, the Federal Labour party has proved itself the biggest fool in Australia. I have studied the Labour movement for years and I am unable to understand why any honorable member supporting its platform could see fit in the present circumstances to charge the Government with having forfeited the confidence of the people. Particularly is this charge unjust in view of the fact that the Government. has done such wonderful work for Australia since it has been in office. I do not know whether the tone of the party would be improved if Mr. Forgan Smith entered this Parliament, or if it could be any worse if the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Gander) gave up his seat in favour of Mr. Lang. Mr. Lang, however, would not take the risk of seeking to become a member of this Parliament. Because of their lack of leadership, honorable members opposite are the most hopeless " mob " that ever entered the political life of this country, and I trust that no government led by the present leaders of the Labour movement in this House will ever hold office in this Commonwealth. During the last election campaign, the honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Curtin) and Mr. Lang and his henchmen came into the Barton electorate and declared that I was in favour of conscription and that if a United Australia party government were returned to office conscription was a certainty. When the Leader of the Opposition came to Hurstville to address a meeting, there were only 200 people present at 8 o'clock, and scouts were sent around with megaphones to try to whip up an audience to hear the honorable gentleman. The same thing occurred when Mr. Lang addressed a meeting at Bexley. On that occasion, the lie was repeated over and over again that the United Australia party stood for conscription. Honorable members announced recently to the whole of Australia that they would drop a bombshell into this Parliament which would result in the Government being blasted out of office. We heard the "bombshell" this afternoon; it was only a squib of a cracker. Nobody ever suspected that such a weak charge could be levelled against a government of this country. In contrast with the statements made by honorable members opposite, let me now cite some of the notable achievements of this Government. In 1931-32, after Mr. Lang had tried to ruin the country, the wealth produced in Australia amounted to only £380,000,000; last year it amounted to £663,000,000. 1138 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - And yet the dole remains at 7s. 6d. per week. 1138 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - That, in my opinion, is all that the honorable member is worth. The honorable member can count himself lucky to be in this Parliament. I feel sure that only an electorate like Woolloomooloo would send him here. The. social services provided by this Government to-day are another index of its worth. In 1937-38, the Commonwealth distributed in social services no less than £41,000,912. 1138 KRE 0 0 SHEEHAN, Thomas Mr Sheehan -Out of the wages tax. 1139 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - It does not matter where the money came from; it came from the people, and they are still willing to hand it over to this Government. Honorable members opposite have referred to the . money paid to the States by the Commonwealth. No Commonwealth Government has co-operated with the States more than the present Government has done. Criticism has been levelled against it for raising money and handing it over to the States. It has been said that the States themselves should collect it and dispose of it as they wish. I trust that this Parliament will never hand over any of its powers to the State governments, ana that whatever money is collected by the Commonwealth will be solely under its control. Last year the Commonwealth handed over to the States over £16,000,000, made up as follows :- These figures show how idiotic is the claim of honorable members opposite that this Government has done nothing for the welfare of Australia or for the States. In my opinion, no Government has done more to bring about an increase of employment than has the present Government. Provision has been made in the budget every year for grants to the States for the relief of unemployment. Tn the Federal electorate of Barton, which comprises three State electorates, hundreds of thousands of pounds Have been spent by local governing bodies for unemployment relief and full-time work. Much of that money has been provided by the Commonwealth. "What has been done in the Barton electorate has also been done in others. 1139 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - I thought there was no unemployment. 1139 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I can understand that interjection from an honorable member who represents a coal-mining constituency. Every now and then the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) thinks that the only way he can keep his job in Parliament is to get a strike going amongst his electors. After the fight has been in progress for a few weeks, and the miners have lost a large amount of money in wages, they go back to work. Their troubles arise because they have such poor parliamentary leaders who cannot help them in the right direction in regard to matters in dispute. As a matter of fact, as the honorable member knows only too well, strikes are the most fruitful source of obtaining votes. He realizes that that is a part of the game he has to play and that if he did not play the game he would quickly be thrown out. The inconsistency of honorable members opposite in relation to defence is shown by their attitude during the ItaloAbyssinian dispute when they demanded that Australian cruisers which were sent to help Great Britain should be withdrawn from the Mediterranean for fear that a shot might be fired by one of them which would involve Australia in hostilities. On that occasion, honorable members opposite attacked the policy adopted by the Government of standing by British Imperial policy, irrespective of the consequences. On that occasion, they disclosed themselves as isolationists, and first propounded their policy that Australians should only be called upon to fight on Australian soil. The Government of New Zealand, which the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Makin) advised us to imitate in regard to social legislation, was prepared to do anything that Britain wanted in the way of sending men overseas. "What a strange contrast between the Labour party there and here. In Australia, the Labour party tells us that the country is not worth defending, and that it would not fight on any soil except Australian. Right throughout its history the Labour party seems to have deliberately tried to create the impression that we in Australia are a pack of cowards who are not prepared to take our place beside Great Britain in the defence of the Empire, though the Labour party in every other part of the Empire has expressed its willingness to do so. Honorable members opposite have condemned the proposal to provide a capital ship for the Australian Navy, but they were very glad that the Australia was in these waters during the war, when the Scharnhorst was in our neighbourhood. To-day, Japan has a powerful fleet only a few days' sail from Australia, and we all know what Japan is doing in China. On pages 5 and 6 of the current issue of the Australian Reader's Digest, the following account of a typical occurrence in China appears: - On the 23rd December, 1937- Two patients were admitted to hospital this afternoon whose condition represents about the last word in fiendish, unmitigated, atavistic brutality. One is the sole survivor of 140 led from one of the refugee camps to the hills where they were first sprayed with a few shot and then soaked with gasoline and set afire. His head is burned to a hideous fixed stare minus the eyes, which are burned out. . . . On the 13th February, 1938- Six Japanese soldiers entered a town some miles south-west of here, and proceeded with their usual system of rape and looting. The men of. the town organized some resistance, killed three of the soldiers. The other three escaped but soon returned with several hundred who quickly threw a cordon around the town. Three hundred inhabitants were all tied together in groups of six or eight and thrown into the icy river. The Japanese then levelled the town so that there was not a wall standing. These and other paragraphs were written by a missionary surgeon in letters to his friends at home. I ask the Leader of the Opposition, and other honorable members opposite, whether, in view of such occurrences, it is not right that we should make some preparation against a foe capable of doing what Japan is doing to China? It is happening in China because that country has no capital ships, and because its defences were not properly organized. Yet cowards like these will stand up in their places in this House- Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. J. Bell).Order ! 1140 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr Mahoney - I rise to a point of order. 1140 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member must withdraw that statement. 1140 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I withdraw it. 1140 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr Mahoney - On a point of order. I object to any honorable member referring to honorable members on this side of the House as cowards. I ask that he withdraw the statement, and apologize. 1140 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have already dealt with the matter". The honorable member has withdrawn the statement. 1140 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I am very sorry to hear honorable members opposite say that the Government is wasting money in making provision for the defence of Australia, particularly after they have heard the explanation of the Prime Minister and Minister for Defence regarding the phenomenal steps that are being taken for the defence of the country. Nothing like it has ever been attempted before. Recent occurrences in Europe should impress upon us the need for taking steps to defend Australia and our families against an invader. Yet some honorable members are able to sneer, and with their tongues in their cheeks, tell the country that the Government, in making provision for defence, is doing something that it has no right to do. I hope that the people will know what to do with them, as they have done at the last' three elections. While the Government has admittedly done a great deal, I am not sure that it has done all it could or should do. Nevertheless, it has done a great deal more than any Government drawn from honorable members opposite would have done. The people would be ill-advised to swap horses now; they are such a poor lot of crocks on the other side. The Government, however, is not yet dealing in a determined manner with the defence of Australia. I believe that we should take every boy in the senior classes of our schools and put a gun in his hand, and teach him how to shoot. I do not think that the boys of to-day are any different from those when I was young, and I used to be able to hit a bull's eye with any one. As for our militia forces, I believe that we have not at the head of affairs a man with sufficient driving force to bring the standard up to what it should be. One of our greatest misfortunes is that the Prime Minister, while ostensibly in a position to allot portfolios, does not exercise an unfettered choice in the selection of Ministers. The time has now arrived when the Country party should say that the pact, or whatever it was, that has existed up to now is definitely off, and that the Prime Minister is free to select the best men for positions in the Cabinet. When the Prime Minister first took office he was able to inaugurate a very sound policy for the country. Then, unfortunately, he lost his majority, and ever since has had to rely upon the Country party to form a government, so that bc is more or less in the same position as Mr. Dunstan in Victoria, who has to rely upon the Labour party to keep him in office. I believe that government of that kind is wicked. In a crisis of this kind the Country party should not insist upon its claims. After all, the only real difference between the Country party and the United Australia party is whether the wheat-farmers should obtain a bonus or not. We believe that the primary industries should be developed along the same lines as all other industries. In the secondary industries, if a man fails in his business, he does not come to the Government for a grant to save' him from going broke. If he fails; his creditors call him into conference and ask him what he can pay. If he cannot pay, say, 10s. in the pound, he is sold up, and has to start again. The Government, however, has been cursed for the last four years with having to submit to the demands of the Country party, and, now, during this period of crisis, its position is untenable. 1141 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr Nock - Is the honorable member supporting the motion for want of confidence ? 1141 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I am not, but I believe that it would be a good thing for Australia if some of those narrow-minded men who are trying to squeeze money from the Government were to adopt a wider national view. If the honorable member interjects again, I shall be constrained to point out that the plunder which his party has exacted from the Government has done more to weaken its stamina than anything else [ know of. 1141 JXL 0 0 FROST, Charles Mr Frost - The honorable member has a high respect for his Government. 1141 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - At any rate, I have more respect for it than I have for the honorable member for Franklin (Mi. Frost), who is always cadging on behalf of the apple-growers and the potato-growers of Tasmania. I do not believe that one little island should be able to exploit the rest of the Commonwealth. If this alliance with the Country party were ended the Government would be free to act as it thinks proper. We have great resources in this country, but only a small population. So far we have only scratched the surface of the soil, as it were, yet, despite the fact that we have had to pay doles, our production has amounted to £600,000,000 a year. If we can do that, and that wealth is here, the Government should try to direct it3 efforts in a way which will give equity and justice to all. Mr. WARD (East Sydney) [10.15 J The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) has charged the Government with lack of leadership in dealing with great national problems which confront thin country. I have listened -with a great deal of interest to members of the Government parties, who put forward what they may consider to be a defence against the attack made by the Leader of the Opposition, but I feel satisfied that no fair minded representative of the people in this chamber, who listened to the generalities expressed by honorable members opposite, could make a survey of the position in Australia and then declare that in the six and a half years in which this Government has had control of Parliament it has solved one national problem. The Opposition wants to know how it can be said that the position of the people generally has been improved by the occupancy of the "treasury bench hy the parties opposite. The Government knows that it would be fatal for it to concentrate the attention of members of this Parliament, and of the people of Australia, on the problems that it has neglected to handle. Twaddle has been handed out by . Ministers from time to time in an endeavour to prove to the people, without support of facts or figures, that conditions are better than they were before the right honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Lyons) became Prime Minister. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) only this year said, " The past year has been one of appreciable economic advance in Australia ", notwithstanding the fact that, making full allowance for the inadequate data upon which the Commonwealth Statistician arrives at his unemployment figures, unemployment had recently increased. The monthly circular of the Bank of New South Wales issued in September had quite a different story to tell. It said - For the June quarter of 1938, trade union employment was stated at 91.4 per cent, of registered trade unionists, showing a fall of about O.G per cent, from the 92 per cent, recorded in the March quarter. This is the first downward movement shown since the June quarter of 1932, when the minimum of 70 per cent, was registered. . . It is obvious that the steady improvement in the employment position during the last five or six years has at last ceased. Since that statement was made the unemployment position has become worse, and in New South Wales to-day, even on. the basis of the inadequate data supplied to the Commonwealth Statistician, it is admitted that 10 per cent, of the people are unemployed. How, therefore, can this Government, which has expended £38,000,000 since it took office on what it claims to be a defence programme, demonstrate that the country is being adequately defended? Since 1914, £130,000,000 has been expended on so-called defence preparations by the various Commonwealth governments. The Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), in endeavouring to show that this Government was handling the situation that confronts us to-day, cited the fact that the Government had provided for certain coastal defences, equipped with certain types of guns, had purchased aeroplanes, and proposed to obtain from overseas a battleship. The fact that a few military men strut around the country and that a few guns have been studded on the coast does not prove that this country is adequately defended. There cannot be adequate defence when 100,000 men, who are able to enter into industry, are unemployed, and as the consequence the full energy of the nation is not being utilized. I agree with what was said. by the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini). It is not the guns that count; it is the men that man them that is the most important factor. I listened to the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) advocate the system of compulsory military service. Why is it that on every occasion on which a programme is promulgated in this Parliament under which sacrifices are entailed the worker is called upon to make the sacrifice? The so-called patriots repre- sented by supporters of the Government cut a very sorry figure when they advocate compulsory military service, because the Melbourne Sun Pictorial on the 25th February, 1936, contained this enlightening item of news: - 1142 miscellaneous Although the Minister for Defence has appealed to employers to aid the militia movement, some employers have refused to give their employees leave to attend annual camp. The first of the 4th Division camps opened at Seymour yesterday, when the 6th Medium Battery went under canvas for five days. Spoken to by telephone last night, an officer said the attendance was between 65 and 70 per cent, of the effective strength and was about the same as last year. He added that the absentees were not away . through fault of their own. All had expressed willingness to attend camp. They could not obtain leave, although their employers had had been circularized. When the youth of the country are prepared to volunteer in considerable numbers, the attitude of the employers is such that only 70 per cent, of those who volunteer can attend the training camp because the others cannot get leave. Despite what the honorable member for Fawkner says against the half -day training periods and the encroachment upon the Saturday afternoons, which are usually devoted to the recreation of the youths, the employers, if compulsory service were introduced, would not be prepared to support the policy unless it meant that the training would be done in the trainees' own time. 1142 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - I am loath, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to interrupt the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), but I should like you to notice that only one member of the Government parties is in the chamber and he is an Assistant Minister. The House has been absolutely deserted by every other Government supporter. 1142 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 1142 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - Recently, the Commonwealth Government approached the loan market to raise £10,000,000, £4,000,000 of which was to be expended on defence. A considerable portion of the loan was left on the hands of the Commonwealth Bank, which underwrote the loan. 1143 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order ! Will honorable members be seated. 1143 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I do not mind these interruptions, because I know that honorable members opposite have no real regard for the welfare of the people of this country. 1143 10000 0 0 DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order ! It is the responsibility of the Chair to order the cessation of interruptions. 1143 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The so-called patriots who are represented by the honorable gentleman opposite were not prepared to subscribe to that loa'n unless they were given the interest rate which they desired. They want their pound of flesh no matter how dire the predicament of the country or how great the needs for its defence. I agree with the honorable member for Werriwa that this Government, in trying to shirk the responsibility to deal with major internal problems, has tried to develop a war hysteria. There has been not one word from the Ministry as to the predicament of the people, but the Treasurer on the Sth June, 1936, in making a statement dealing with the bank deposits, insurance, houses and motor cars owned by the workers, concluded by saying - These figures bring out the fact that the wage and salary earners, in addition to their wages and salaries, owned over £1,000,000,000 of wealth and were two and three-quarter times richer than before the war. That is the sort of twaddle that is spoken by honorable gentlemen opposite in order to try to hoodwink the people, who are best able to judge as to whether conditions are better than they were before the right honorable member for Wilmot took office. I counter everything that is claimed by the Government in respect of improved conditions by citing the fact that in 193S the number of invalid pensioners was 125 in every 10,000 of the population, a record for this country. In the sams period the number of old-age pensioners was 325 in every 10,000, which constitutes a record, and to me, knowing the operation of the regulations in respect of income and property, proves that if the wealth of the country has been increased considerably, as has been claimed by the Treasurer, the great bulk of the people are not sharing in it, and that the distance between the very rich and the very poor has become greater than ever. Because of the critical international situation this Government suddenly became aware of the fact that the health of the people of this country was a matter of concern to it, because in the event of war only those who were physically fit would be of any use as soldiers. Such a realization in a time of emergency is not peculiar to this country, but is common wherever capitalist governments reign, because, just before the last war, Mr. Lloyd George said there were 12,000,000 worse fed, worse housed, and worse clothed, than they would be in a work house or prison. Those are people to whom this Government and any government of a similar colour would plead to defend the country. The census is the only reliable guide to the position of the people. The 1933 census showed that 1,000,000 breadwinners had an income of less than £2 a week, and that 250,000 had an income of less than £3 a week. Yet, according to supporters of the Government, the conditions of the people have improved considerably. A statement published in the Sydney Sun of the 10th October, 1936, shows how the position of the unemployed worker is viewed by this Government and other United Australia party governments in Australia. The Sydney Sun reported that it cost 25s. a week to keep a man in gaol, and 15s. a week to warm the water for the shark at Taronga Park, whereas only 7s. 6d. a week food allowance was allowed, to the unemployed, and no provision was made whatever for his clothing and shelter. The Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Hughes) has said that the working people of Australia consume less fruit, vegetables, cheese and milk, than do the workers of Great Britain, because of insufficient means to purchase those commodities. The Government has not attempted to, correct that position. It is a class Government which legislates for the benefit of only one section of the community. When the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) left .the Labour party, for obvious reasons which I am not permitted by the Standing Orders to state, but which were of considerable benefit to himself, he was reported in the columns of the Launceston Examiner of the 9th December, 1931, as follows : - Mr. Lyons referred with impassioned sincerity to the unemployment situation, and condemned the Labour Government for having failed to do something for the solution of the problem. " That, above anything, forced me to leave the party," said Mr. Lyons. What is the attitude of the right honorable gentleman to-day in respect of this very important matter, despite the fact that, according to the Commonwealth Statistician's figures, the percentage of unemployment is increasing? On the 23rd September last I asked him the following question: - Will the Prime Minister state whether, in view of the fact that the latest returns reveal a. rising trend in the number of unemployed, the Government considers it about time to cease bringing to this country considerable numbers of migrants whose presence will only accentuate the difficulty of the present residents of Australia? The reply I received was : " The question is not an urgent one." Although no fewer than 100,000 persons are unemployed in Australia, the attitude of the Government to this very serious problem is that it is not an urgent one! In the year 1919 there was a royal commission on housing, which made a certain report. The Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page), then Commonwealth Treasurer, said that he would provide the sum of £20,000,000 to give effect to the findings of the commission. So far as I can gather - and I have sought information from every source - there is no evidence that the Commonwealth Government from that time onward has done anything to grapple with this problem. 1144 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr Barnard - It has built an elaborate house for the Treasurer. 1144 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - I thank the honorable member for that reminder. A conference of New' South Wales health inspectors; held in 1936, declared "the houses available at rents allowed by. arbitration and industrial courts are, for the most part, unfit for occupation." Yet honorable members opposite would have us believe that these properties are worth defending ! The Sydney Morning Herald of the 22nd May, 1937, reported that overcrowding and slum conditions were worse than in 1913, and went on to say, " Two or more persons frequently occupy a single room, in which cooking is done by means of a gas ring." The Sydney Sun of the 12th January, 1937, reported that, of 1550 inspected houses in the Sydney suburb of Erskineville, 882 were without a bath. Yet honorable members opposite contend that no case has been made out against the Government on account of its neglect of national problems! The Government cannot claim that there has been any lack of funds to proceed with its often promised housing plan for the people, because, from 1932 to 1938 inclusive, the accumulated surpluses totalled approximately £15,250,000. The Government has not expended anything on the improvement of the living conditions of the people. As late as the 20th October last, the Sydney Morning Herald published the following: - Mr. G. R. Gerlach, executive officer of the Housing Improvement Board, in an address to the Association of Local Government Clerks yesterday, said that there were 30.000 substandard houses in the inner area of Sydney - damp, badly ventilated, ill-equipped, and lacking adequate sunlight and open space. Reference has been made in this Parliament on many occasions to the alarming fall of the birth-Tate. In view of the conditions that I have disclosed to-night, there is no need to look for any further reason to account for the fall of the birth-rate. The pre-war birth-rate was in the vicinity of 27 to 1,000 of the population. To-day, the figure has dropped to 17. Honorable members opposite speak of the necessity to populate our empty spaces. In my opinion, that can best be done with Australian children. In an attempt to supplement the natural increase of the population of Australia, the Government is launching out on a a scheme of immigration. Although it has continuously boasted that we are almost 100 per cent, a British community, for the first six months of 1938 Australia lost 5,147 -Britishers and gained 448 Greeks, 1,292 Italians, and 325 Jugo-slavs, as well as many others from southern European countries. According to the Sydney Sun of the 29th September, 1936, the advantages which Australia offers to the British workers are, climate, customs, and landscapes. Lamentable though the conditions of British workers may be in their own country, they are much better than are provided in this country for the unemployed ; consequently, there is no need to seek for a reason for the refusal of Britishers to migrate to this country. On the other hand, southern Europeans come to this country in order to escape the almost intolerable conditions in their own countries. The Labour party has no quarrel with them as individuals, because they are not responsible. Its quarrel is with those who are responsible for bringing them to this country to add to the number of unemployed, already here. Whenever the Government has been asked to do something to cope with this growing problem it has neglected to do so, the reason being that outside of this Parliament are individuals controlling the Government who pull the strings in order to have continued a policy which will provide a ready supply of cheap labour. The honorable member for Fawkner had advocated a fitness campaign, and has mentioned what has been done in Great Britain in this respect.' His idea is that something similar should be undertaken in Australia, I remember Mr. Chamberlain referring to the alarming fall of the birthrate in Great Britain and stressing the necessity to do something to improve the physical standard of the people of that country; and I also recollect that the British medical fraternity stated that Mr. Chamberlain's scheme was only " organized murder of the underfed ". I should like the honorable member for Fawkner, whom I have heard blathering on many occasions in respect of the problem of the physical unfitness of the manhood of Australia to undertake its defence, to tell me what he proposes with a view to overcoming the position of many hundreds of thousands of workers and their dependants who cannot buy sufficient wholesome food, who cannot have wholesome living conditions, and who are not able to clothe themselves properly? What does he propose in order to overcome the real cause for their lack of physical fitness? Does he suggest they should be given a few physical jerks, or is he in favour of making this Government do what it should have done in the last seven years, namely, see that no man, woman, or child, lacked the necessaries of life? The honorable member mentioned that the figures in relation to physical fitness revealed by enlistments during the period of the last war, 34 per cent. of those who offered for enlistment were rejected as medically unfit, and of those who were accepted, 14 per cent. were eventually proved unfit for active service. The position is no different to-day. Recently, I asked the Minister for Defence to furnish me with figures relating to rejections of men who had offered for service in the militia. The information with which I was supplied was as follows : - The percentage of recruits offering for service in the Militia and the Permanent Military Forces who were rejected in each of the past five years because of physical unfitness was- Professor Harvey Sutton, director of the School of Public Health at the Sydney University, is reported to have made the following statement : - I believe we should be lucky if we raised two-thirds of a million men out of an estimated total man-power of 1,500,000. The reason why there is physical unfitness among the people of this country to-day is not that they have not undertaken exercises which the honorable member for Fawkner would have them undertake, but that this Government has failed to furnish them with even the bare necessaries of life. The Government of New South Wales proposes that milk should be sold in five grades, the grade received being decided by the capacity of the recipient to pay. A worker on the basic wage or on relief work, with children dependent on him, would be supplied with the fifth grade. The honorable member for Fawkner would regard that as quite all right, and would expect under such a system the raising of physically fit citizens for the adequate defence of this country. 1146 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser - It would be of standard quality ; otherwise it could not be sold. 1146 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - Would it be of the same quality - the best? 1146 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser - Yos. 1146 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - That is not true. If it. were of the best quality, why should it be graded? It is to be sold, not at the. one price, but at different prices. v The dairy farmer would sell the highest grade for the highest price. If that were not so, there would be no purpose in grading the milk. The workers and their dependants will get only the lowest grade. This Government believes that that is the kind of treatment which should be meted out to the workers; yet it appeals to their patriotism to defend this country! If the workers want to do the job thoroughly, as the honorable member for Werriwa "has said, there are plenty of persons in Australia against whom 'the guns could be trained before starting on anybody overseas. I have shown how the workers of this country are treated. When it comes to the masters of the Government - the bankers - what is the position? The Governor-General's speech at the opening of the present Parliament contained the following statement : - My advisers have examined the recent report of the royal commission on the banking and monetary systems of Australia, and will submit legislation to Parliament. In the first instance, a bill to establish a mortgage bank department of the Commonwealth Bank will be placed before Parliament. The mortgage bank has not yet materialized. Its principal purpose was to be the assistance of primary producers. From time to time, honorable members of the Country party have led us tt> believe that the position of the primary producer, generally speaking, is very precarious. If they would use their power m this Parliament by bringing pressure to bear upon the Ministry, they could ensure that the proposed mortgage branch of the Commonwealth Bank would be established without delay, and that cheap money would be made available to the producers who are said to need it. What happened in actual fact? How was it that after the report of the royal commission was made available the associated banks consulted with the representatives of the Government upon the subject, and were able to influence the Government's actions? In this connexion, the following report appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald on the 31st March, 1938:- The Federal Treasurer, Mr. Casey, said last night that the meeting of bankers over which he presided in Sydney on Tuesday and yesterday, had been very useful. There had been a very frank exchange of views, ' but, obviously, he could not divulge the nature of the discussions. We have not yet been informed of the nature of the discussions nor has the mortgage branch of the bank been established. Predictions have appeared in the press, however, to the effect that the bill to establish this branch of the bank will not be introduced as long as this Government remains in office. We wish to know howit is that a secret conclave between the private banking institutions and the Commonwealth Treasurer can defeat the recommendations of the royal commission which the Government had already stated it intended to adopt? The Treasurer said that the discussion had been "useful". In what way was it useful? No doubt it was " useful " for the financial interests, but to them alone. How does the Government propose to finance its enlarged defence programme? Its only idea, apparently, is to continue the old policy of raising loans and thus burden the people of Australia with a heavier national debt than they now have to carry. The Government has made an appeal to the patriotism of the unemployed people of this country in connexion with defence. It has said that, if these works are put in hand, work will be found for people who are to-day without a job. But the work will finish some time, and the people will then find that they have a heavier national debt than ever before; as the result the future difficulties of themselves and those who follow will be accentuated. During the six and a half years that this Government has been in office, the national debt has increased by £92,500,000, and has reached the colossal total of £1,275,000,000. It might be expected that the people who control finance in Australia would be glad to make money available for defence purposes, but the plain fact is that the recent loan of £10,000,000 waa under-subscribed, no doubt because the rate of interest was not considered high enough, although £4,000,000 of the money was needed for defence works. Before very long the Government will bring forward a proposal for the conversion of £6S,000,000 of maturing loans. Will the people who hold the bonds in the existing loans say to the Government, " We are prepared to accept a lower rate of interest, because we realize the Government needs money for defence purposes " ? That is most unlikely to happen. It is quite possible that a demand will be made for a higher rate of interest. Yet the moneyed people of this country, and the Government which represents them, will call upon the workers to make sacrifices in the interests of defence! As the investors of Australia refused to fully subscribe the £10,000,000 loan recently placed on the market, and left a considerable . proportion of it to the Commonwealth Bank to carry, I cannot see anything ridiculous in suggesting that the Commonwealth Bank should itself redeem the £68,000,000 of loan money which will mature in the near future. It could be done in a simple way. The Commonwealth. Bank could be given the right to accept the bonds and place an equivalent amount to the credit of each investor. The investor would then be able to make use of the credit available to him. This would tend to stimulate industry in certain directions. Moreover, the people would not be called upon to pay interest on the money to private investors, and any profit made as the result of the transaction by the Commonwealth Bank would revert to the Commonwealth, so lightening the burden of debt to some extent. We all know very well that during the war years the Commonwealth Bank was able to raise £258,000,000 for war purposes at a cost to the Government of only 5s. 7d. per cent, in flotation costs. [Leave to continue given.] During the same period the private financial institutions of Australia were asked to provide certain loan moneys. They did it at a cost to the various governments of £2 17s. per cent. The waT-time operations of the Commonwealth Bank saved Australia £4,500,000 in flotation costs alone. Recently the Minister for Defence complimented the manufacturers of Australia upon agreeing to co-operate with the Government in its defence programme. He said - The Minister for Defence, Mr. Thorby, was reported during the week as having said that the making of profits had not even been considered by manufacturing firms which had undertaken to co-operate with the Government in its new defence scheme. He said also, according to the report, that the manufacturers concerned had shown no desire to make any profits, even though they had undertaken to bear the cost of altering or adding to their factories or -installing additional machinery to meet the requirements of the Defence Department. Instead of the manufacturers carrying out that undertaking we find that the Government introduced to Parliament a proposal that additional plant and machinery should be provided for the private manufacturers out of Commonwealth revenue, without involving them in one penny of additional expenditure, or requiring them even to give an assurance that the pliant and equipment so installed would not be used for manufacturing goods for private sale when not engaged in the manufacture of munitions. Surely no honorable member of this Parliament with any experience can imagine for a moment that those who engage in the private manufacture of armaments in this country will be foolish enough to do so without profit! The Australian Iron and Steel Company, no doubt anticipating a considerable increase of profits in consequence of its acceptance of defence work decided recently to devote £2,000,000 which it had on loan from the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, to the increase of its capital, although not an additional penny was spent in extending its works or providing new equipment. Its purpose in increasing its capital by £2,000,000 was simply to have means at hand to spread the profits which it expects to make from its defence activities. Honorable members may take it from me that this marks the commencement of a private armaments ring in Australia. They may say what they like with respect to the activities of these interests, but our experience will undoubtedly be similar to that of the people of Great Britain recently. When Mr. Chamberlain flew to Germany to consult with Herr Hitler, everybody was of the opinion that war was imminent. Naturally there was a rush by the British people in general to obtain requisites to protect themselves against anticipated air attacks. Many decided to buy gas masks for themselves and for women and little children in order that they might be protected from gas attacks. Did the manufacturers of Great Britain provide these articles generously and without profit? They did not. They raised their prices for certain articles toy 500 per cent. Yet, in spite of this fact, the Government of the United Kingdom, and also the Commonwealth Government, reiterates the opinion that private manufacturers are not concerned about profits from defence orders, but are actuated solely by the desire to help the Government to carry out its' defence programme. My opinion is that the manufacturers of Australia who provide defence equipment will adopt exactly the same policy as that adopted by the manufacturers of Great Britain. The Minister for Defence has told us recently that our manufacturers are making steel helmets, gas masks, and the like, so that in the event of hostilities occurring, the people of Australia will be able to obtain necessary defence equipment. But will these articles be supplied to the people -irrespective of their capacity to pay? I do not believe it for a moment. Our people will get nothing except that for which they can pay. The unemployed men and women of Australia will not be able to obtain gas masks unless they are able to pay for them. The honorable member for Werriwa truly declared that the Government had neglected to provide any fuel equipment for its mechanised defence units. It has also neglected to do anything to give effect to the policy propounded by the honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) when he was Minister conducting negotiations for trade treaties, for the manufacture of motor car engines in Australia. Transport, of course, is a very important factor in defence these days. The proposal for the manufacture, of motor car engines in Australia was first announced by the honorable member on the 22nd May, 1936. Things did not- go well with the policy, and, ultimately, the honorable member resigned from the Ministry. Dealing with the whole subject in Parliament, he said on the 8th June, 1938 (vide page 1922 of Hansard) - Further evidence of the Commonwealth Government's commitment was the consent of the Government of the United Kingdom conveyed by cablegram, to the propositi to oiler a bounty on the manufacture of motor car engines in Australia. Had this consent not been given, the offer of that bounty would have constituted a breach of the Ottawa Agreement . . To the best of my knowledge the question of Australian and Imperial defence was specifically mentioned when the matter was referred to Mr. Baldwin . . . Cabinet decided that the matter should not be referred to the Tariff Board, but that it should bc dealt with immediately as one of great national importance, and associated with the problem of defence . . . No matter ever raised in this House was more completely discussed and endorsed by the Cabinet as a whole, livery word of my speech had been read by the Prime Minister himself before I came into the chamber ... I knew, however, that "once the proposal was sent back to the Tariff Board, exactly what has happened was intended to happen. So this proposal is held up in this wretched manner to-day . . I do say that the Government has failed. Surely honorable members will not desire anything more definite than that statement by an ex-Minister of this Government. The attitude of the Government towards shipping is also deserving of condemnation in unmeasured terms. We have been told that our trade routes must be kept open, and that they must be defended. It is rather remarkable, .however, that the produce of Australia is carried abroad, not in Australian ships, but in British and foreign ships. Yet, when the Bruce-Page Government was in office, it deliberately sacrificed the Australian Commonwealth Line of steamers instead of increasing it. What will happen to the primary produce of Australia if Great Britain requires its mercantile marine in its own waters to transport troops and equipment? What will happen to our trade routes? The Bruce Page Government sacrificed the Australian Commonwealth Line of Steamers, which originally cost £7,527,000, for £1,900.000. The liners were sold to the White Star Line, of which Lord Kylsant, now a convicted criminal, was then managing director'. The White Star Line eventually went into liquidation, and our ships were re-sold for ?500,000. The latest information is that the indebtedness in respect of them is about ?800,000, yet the Government has done nothing whatever to recover the money or the ships. As indicative of the value of this line to the primary producers, the following question and answer are interesting. Mr. Bruce was asked in Parliament in April, 1928 - What was the amount of freight saved on primary products owing to the reductions in freight charges announced by the Commonwealth Shipping Line in July, 1920? Mr. Bruce replied The approximate saving in one year was ?b75,988. Fie said further - In 1925 the line was approached by British and foreign interests with a request to increase freights by 10 per cent, lt refused to do so. In November, 1920, it was asked to agree to an increase of 15 per cent, on practically all cargo from the United Kingdom to Australia. Again it refused to do so. The Sydney Sun, on the 9th November, 1927, said- For many years all the power and influence of the shipping combine has been bent upon the construction of the Commonwealth Line. Why? Let the farmer, and the grazier, and the importer .... and the public, which is also interested in factors which affect the cost of living .... ask why! For the ?500,000 loss each year, which the general taxpayer must bear, the line probably saves millions in freights by keeping the combine ships down to a level of reason. It is strange indeed to see the country members of Mr. Bruce's Government acquiescing in a course of action so inimical to the interests of their constituents. To show how beneficial the line was to primary producers, I quote the following remarks made by Mr. Bruce, then Prime Minister, in this House on the 10th July, 1923 :- Shortly after the line was established it was carrying Australian wheat to London at ?7 10s. per ton at a time when British shipowners were charging ?13 and more, and foreign charters were as high as ?15 per ton. The Commonwealth Line's rates were a considerable benefit to the Australian farmer at that time. Despite that, this Government has done nothing whatever to assist primary producers or those who have to send their products abroad, to secure cheaper freight rates. On the contrary, when the combine raised freights and appeals were made to the Government to do something, it said that it would consult with the associated steamship companies; but it has certainly achieved nothing in bringing about some relief in this direction. 1149 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr Nock - Freight rates are 32s. a ton now, not ?7 10s. 1149 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - Can the honorable member, as a farmers' representative, justify a charge of ?13 or ?15 a ton by a shipping combine when the Australian Commonwealth Line was charging only ?7 10s.? The proper time for a comparison was when the Commonwealth Line was operating. If the line were "operating to-day wheat would be carried at very much less than the figure mentioned by the honorable member. I have mentioned the urgency of this Government doing something to provide a source of fuel for transport, but according to every statement made in this Parliament, the Government has neglected to carry out any plan or any programme likely to give to the people a source of such fuel should an emergency arise. On the contrary, it has sabotaged every move designed to bring relief to the country in this direction. It is amusing to hear people say that we shall not give up New Guinea. To those people I would say that if it should become necessary to defend our Mandated Territory, they should defend it themselves. As far as I am concerned, all I oan judge about the necessity for retaining New Guinea is that a handful of exploiters have got hold of the country, some interested in aerial transport, some in. gold-mining, and some in the search for oil, which, according to reliable reports,- has already been found. These people want to retain New Guinea in order to preserve their own commercial interests. But what happens to the unfortunate natives? The honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr), when dealing with some criticism of conditions prevailing in New Guinea, said that the natives are so satisfied that, when their employers offer them their wages at the end of the week, they put their hands behind their backs and refuse to take the money. It is quite possible that they are too ashamed at the paltry amount offered to take it. The Government has failed effectively to carry out a programme designed to protect the lives and the interest of the Australian people. Joist recently we had a disastrous air accident. According to all the reports which have appeared in the press, although equipment had been provided by the Civil Aviation Department for the protection of civil aviation, and had been in readiness and had actually been tested privately and proved effective by some aviators, this Government delayed in putting it into use. In my opinion its failure to utilize valuable equipment already installed was responsible for the loss of eighteen lives in the recent air disaster. 1150 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's extended time has expired. Motion (by Mr. Barnard) put- That the debatebe now adjourned. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.) 26 34 Majority . . . . 8 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 1150 JNX Bass 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD .-I support the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), because I feel that the time is ripe for such a motion to be submitted in order to bring under the notice of the people of this country the ineptitude of the Government. As the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, Australia has been governed by a government led by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) for the last seven years. Although the composition of the Government has changed slightly following Cabinet reconstructions, the leadership has remained the same. During the whole of the regime of the Lyons Administration very little of a constructive character has been attempted. Many promises made by the Prime Minister to the electors, not only during the last election campaign, but also in the campaign of 1934, have remained unfulfilled, and, what is worse, untackled. During the course of this debate many of the promises made during the last two election campaigns have been referred to, and it has been adequately proved that many of the problems that confront the nation have not even been tackled, let alone solved. The problem of unemployment still confronts the people of this country. Although there has been an improvement of the employment figures, that improvement has been due, not as has been claimed by the Government because of its legislation, but rather in spite of it. Much of the relief work has been done with funds provided by State governments. The Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) to-day spoke of the employment which had been brought about by the inauguration of defence works, but the fact is that there are fewer men employed at the Maribyrnong munition works at the present time than there were previously. Men who had been employed for years are now being dismissed. A man who, though anxious to work, is out of employment, cannot be blamed if he does not care under what flag he lives. Ho has no stake in the country if he is not employed. If he cannot provide a decent living standard for his wife and family, he has nothing to defend. "While I believe that we should make adequate provision for the defence of our country, I can appreciate the feelings of a man who is out of a job because of the economic system under which we live. If I were in his position, it would be difficult to induce me to fight for the support of an economic system that deprived me of the opportunity to earn a livelihood for myself and my family. I listened with interest to the statement of the Minister for Defence this afternoon regarding the measures being taken by the Government for the defence of Australia. He started off at Melbourne, and told us what had been done for the defence of that city. Then he went to Sydney, then to Newcastle, Brisbane and Fremantle. He told us something about the ships that had been built, and which were to he built. He said something about the Air Force, but what, F wonder, does he mean by the defence of Australia? What about Tasmania, that Cinderella of the Commonwealth? What is being done to defend it? 1151 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - Tasmania, . being an island State, gets more than its share of naval protection. 1151 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - I am afraid that 1 cannot appreciate the full significance of that remark. I arn unable to see the joke. I know that there is an old gun in Tasmania which has been there ever since Martin Cash and the other bushrangers roamed the island. Recently, it was moved from one site to another, but it is obsolete and of no real value for defence purposes. By asking questions, I have been able to learn from the Minister for Defence what has been done, and what it is proposed to do, for the defence of Tasmania. For the last six years, defence expenditure in that State was as follows :. - Expenditure for the next three years has been estimated as follows : - I was also informed in reply to my question that - The money will be spent on pay and maintenance of personnel, purchase of stores and material, works and services. It is estimated in Tasmania's allocation £25,000 will be spent upon pay and allotments of personnel, general expenses, purchase of stores and minor works; Army, £102,200 for pay of personnel, general expenses, stores and works; munition supply branch, £24,350 for pay of staffs general expensed, purchase of raw materials and manufacture of munitions; civil aviation, £51,000 for pay of staff, general expenses, subsidies to air services and works. It will be seen that no additional expenditure is to take place in Tasmania, with the exception of some provision for the employment of a few more men, and a slight increase of expenditure on material, stores, &c. During the last few weeks, it was frequently asked what would be the position if Tasmania were raided by an enemy. What would happen, for instance, to the electrolytic zinc works or the hydro-electric power works, if an aeroplane dropped bombs on them? Obviously, the result would be chaos, for practically the whole of the industries of Tasmania would be held up. [Quorum formed.} At the recent meeting of the Loan Council the Commonwealth Government suggested to the Premiers of the States that loan moneys advanced to the States should be expended on defence and developmental works. If that suggestion- had been agreed to, I fear that the whole of the money provided for expenditure upon developmental works in Tasmania during the next few years would be expended on the mainland. 1151 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - Where did the honorable member get that idea? 1151 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - I know only what f have heard from the Premiers who were present at the conference, and from what appeared in the press. I am pleased that Tasmania did not agree to the proposal, for had it done so, not only would the extension of the hydro-electric scheme have been delayed, but the inauguration of the paper pulp industry in that State would also have been postponed. The establishment of that new industry in Tasmania is dependent on the construction of an additional unit of the existing power scheme. There is a great demand for hydro-electric power in Tasmania, but in order to supply it additional units are necessary. I fear that, had the proposals of the Commonwealth been agreed to, these very necessary works would have been delayed. If Tasmania is regarded as being so immune from attack that little or no expenditure is necessary for its defence, I suggest that it is a State ideally suited for the building of annexes to existing engineering establishments for the manufacture of munitions. I have read the report of Sir Edward Ellington who recently reported on the Royal Australian Air Force. Although [ imagine that a more comprehensive report than that which was published in the press was furnished to the Government, the published report condemns the Government for its inactivity in regard to defence affairs, and bears out the complaints that have been made from time to time regarding the Air Force. Not only is there room for complaint about the air force conditions, but also in respect of other aspects of air transport the Government was condemned. Paragraph 9 of Sir Edward Ellington's report reads - The present training of flying instructors to not altogether satisfactory. I note that the formation .of an instructors' flight in the proposed central training establishment is included in the final programme, but it is not the present intention to form it until 1941. This is an urgent matter. The instructors' flight should not only train flying instructors for the Hying training school and cadre squadrons, but the staff should supervise the instruction at the latter and at civil schools if such are formed in accordance with my recommendation in paragraph 21. His report continues - 1 have examined the reports of flying accidents in the Royal Australian Air Force during the last three years, and compared them with the records of the Royal Australian Air Force over approximately the same period. The rate for the Royal Australian Air Force is definitely worse than in the United Kingdom, but' in a small air force such as the Royal Australian Air Force fluctuations must be expected, and the rate before 1935 was considerably better than at present. Of twelve accidents in the Royal Australian Air Force three appear to be due to disobedience of orders or bad flying discipline, and possibly a fourth is due to the same cause. This is a high proportion, and points to a need of a strict enforcement of the regulations. This report refers to the civil aviation branch. Paragraph 25 reads - Civil aviation requires experienced pilots to . operate the air transport aircraft, and to act as instructors of flying clubs. In my view, that experience should be acquired in the Royal Australian Air Force. This will add to the attractions of short service, and provide pilots for civil flying without the operating companies having to bear the cost of their early training. It will also ensure that the civil pilots are fit for service in war by reason of their early training in armament duties. It may be that during the expansion of the Royal Australian Air Force, which coincides with the considerable growth of the civil aviation services, such a practice cannot be applied, but I suggest that it should be the policy of the Government that in normal times the pilots of the subsidized companies should first have passed through the Royal Australian Air Force. The whole of the report is condemnatory of the Government for its handling of the civil branch of the air force. The report concludes with recommendations, and emphasis is placed on three most important matters as requiring attention. They are set out thus - In conclusion I wish to emphasize that the three most important matters which should receive close attention are: - Improvement in flying discipline. Improvement in training subsequent to the completion of the flying train-' ing school course. Improvement in the conditions of service of permanent officers. Finally, I would emphasize the benefits which would be gained by the Royal Australian Air Force in all respects by an increase in co-operation between the Royal Australian Air Force and civil aviation. The report places at the door of th* Government very largely the responsibility for the maladministration of aviation, and some responsibility for the fatalities that have occurred. Despite the fact that this Government has known that these occurrences have been taking place, it was not proposed by it to bring into operation a certain school until 1941. I now come to what was said in this House when a De Haviland machine was lost in Bass Strait while flying between Australia and the mainland in 1935. I asked the Minister for Defence - In view of the disaster which yesterday overtook the third of the D.H.80 type of aeroplane within a period of a little over a year, will the Minister for Defence, in addition to the search inquiryhe has promised, into the reasons for the loss of this machine,also have explored the desirability of making provision for - (1) The use in theTasmanian service of planes capable of alighting upon either land or sea: (2) Complete ground control of such planes; (31 Emergency aerodrome at or near theTasmanian coast, at Georgetown or Bird Fort, and the completion of the aerodrome at Cape Barren Island, in the Furneaux Group? The Minister promised that something would be done. Despite that request and the requests that have been made ever since, not only in this chamber,but also by other interested persons, for the establishment of complete ground control of aviation in this country, the Government has gone a certain distance and then stopped. The result is the disaster which occurred last week. Nobody regrets such a tragedy more than I do. Mr.White. - The honorable member should not discuss that now. It issub judice. You cannot blame the Government at this stage. 1153 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD -We should never blame the Government. Mr.White. - Let the inquiry take its course. 1153 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - It appears that the burden is going to be shifted on to some one who cannot defend himself. Mr.White. - That is a terrible thing to say, a shameful thing. 1153 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - Of course it is terrible, but this Government is doing some terrible things, and furthermore it is failing to do what it should do. That proves the justification for the motion moved by my leader. It is of no use for the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) to try to beg the question. Mr.White. - It is unfair for the honorable member to make charges before the inquiry is complete. 1153 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - It is always unfair for members of the Opposition to reflect upon the Government, which in its hushhush way, appoints people to hold inquiries, the results of which the public, members of Parliament and other interested persons never learn. The Minister for Trade and Customs knows well that this Government uses hush-hush methods. The time has come - indeed it is long overdue - when something should be said about these things and I am not one to be silenced by the interjections of the Minister for Trade . and Customs. What has gone on in aviation matters in Australia is due to the failure of the Government to do what should be done, but the responsibility for the sort of thing that occurred last week is shifted on to some one who is not able to answer. I am one who will not be quiet on these matters. The public wants to know the reason why the Government is not prepared to discuss the question. It is also entitled to know why it has forced this debate to proceed. The reason, of course, for the continuance of the debate is that the Government supporters wish to have their say while the press galleries are full, so that their indictments - if any-of the Opposition will be published in the newspapers, whereas the indictment of the Government by the Opposition members will not. At long last, however, the press of Australia is beginning to write about the Government in a condemnatory fashion. There is no doubt that the men who operate the aerial services are not in a position to express their opinions. They will talk, but only in confidence. It is, therefore, more difficult to bring to light the lack of methods of control of aviation, If radio beacons had been provided and proper ground control instituted in accordance with the promise given in answer to my request in 1935, there is every possibility that the various air crashes that have occurred would not have taken place, and many valuable lives would have been saved. I shall now refer to the Royal Australian Air Force. I have seen a letter from a young man who served in the Royal Australian Air Force. He was regarded as unsatisfactory, but when he left the Royal Australian Air Force and went to England he gave satisfaction, and was highly commended for his work in the British Air Force. That shows that there is something wrong here, and that a searching inquiry is needed. This Government, apparently, is not prepared to do anything to improve the position in which we find ourselves. Dealing with the general policy of the Government, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) referred to the housing problem. I also have mentioned this matter on many occasions. A year or two ago we were told that arrangements were to be made for the construction of homes for the people, but in' spite of the fact that in 1927 and 1928 measures were passed authorizing the Government to take some action, the States have not received assistance to carry out housing schemes, nor has the Commonwealth Government itself been able to cope with the shortage of houses in Canberra. It is estimated that 1,000 additional homes will be needed to meet the requirements of officers of the Defence Department who are to be transferred to Canberra in the immediate furture. Shortage of houses in the Federal Capital has been increasing so rapidly during the last five or six years, under the administration of this Government, that it is now admitted that the waiting list for houses in Canberra has reached the colossal total of 337.I referred previously to the luxury house, constructionof which has been proceeding in the last few months, for one of the Ministers. 1154 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - We shall be occupying it shortly. 1154 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - It certainly looks as if we may have that opportunity in the near future, but as the building is a miniature mansion, no Labour Minister would bo able to pay the rent for it. 1154 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member's time has expired. Debate (on motion by Sir Earle Page) adjourned. 1154 miscellaneous Motion (by Sir Earle Page) agreed to- That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 11 a.m. to-morrow. 1154 23:54:00 House adjourned at 11.54 p.m.