1938-11-03 15 1 2 REPS 1189 0 House of Representatives. 1938-11-03 Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. T. Bell) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers: 1189 miscellaneous Statement in " Canberra Times ". 1189 N76 Kooyong UAP Attorney-General 1 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr MENZIES . - by leave -The Canberra Times this morning has published, under appropriate headlines, the statement that the Attorney-General - meaning myself - has served on the Government, or on the Prime Minister, an ultimatum in relation to the reconstruction of the Cabinet.I take this opportunity to say at once that the story that I have served an ultimatum either on the Prime Minister or on the Government is completely untrue. I have not done so either directly or indirectly, and I can attribute the report only to a malicious desire to engender bad blood between the Prime Minister and myself who are, not only colleagues, but also friends. I merely add that any matter concerning either the constructing or the reconstructing of the Cabinet is, on my side of politics, one for the Prime Minister solely to determine, 1190 Motion Debate resumed from the 2nd November (vide page 1154), on motion by Mr. Curtin - That, because of its lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. 1190 C7E Cowper CP Minister for Commerce 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE . - I feel deeply grateful to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) for the action that he took and the speech that he made yesterday. In the first place I thank him for the tribute that he paid to the work which my colleague, the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), has -been doing. I regard that as a very decent and sportsmanlike action. My colleague has been the victim of one of the dirtiest press campaigns ever instituted in Australia, culminating last Sunday week in the publication of a malicious slander in a Sunday newspaper, which said that he had left the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers in order to attend a dance. What actually happened was that after the conference had concluded its deliberations the honorable gentleman attended the Journalists' Ball at the. request of the journalists themselves, and in the company of the majority of those who had been present at the conference. We who are associated with the Minister for Defence appreciate the tribute paid to his work by the Leader of the Opposition, because we know him to be as able and loyal a colleague as we could wish to have. As Minister for Defence he has had a super-human task to perform; he has had to arrange for the expenditure of exactly twice the amount expended in the previous year, and I venture to affirm that he has been the means of saving this country hundreds of thousands of pounds which might otherwise have been wasted. 1190 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - Would it have been wasted if another man had been Minister for Defence ? 1190 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - No. But he is undoubtedly a man who pays great attention to detail; the comfort which honorable members enjoy in this Parliament House is testimony to that, -because he inspired most of the alterations for the convenience of members. My second reason for being grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for having raised the issue of Commonwealth leadership at the recent meeting of the Loan Council and the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers is that I am thus enabled, by an exact narrative of the facts, and by the quotation of the official statements of members of that conference, to expose the misrepresentation and misstatements of which a section of the press has been guilty in an attempt to sensationalize a practical effort to solve a most difficult problem. By premature, ill-founded and incorrect anticipation of what was to be considered, they made worse an atmosphere which was already difficult;- by lacing the atmosphere with lying stories of intrigue and motives, by publishing maliciously untrue accounts of my implication in these intrigues, they brought to the conference a feeling of mistrust and suspicion. On the Sunday previous to the conference, I made an appeal to the press to refrain from an endeavour to create this atmosphere, and pointed out that at that time, some of the State Premiers had not even received the communications embodying the Commonwealth Government's proposals that had been sent to them and that it was absolutely improper for myself or anybody else to. make statements in regard to those matters. Despite this atmosphere, which unfortunately did not dis. appear until the conference had actually concluded its deliberations, and an opportunity was afforded to discuss the matter in detail, the State governments respected the confidence reposed in them by the Commonwealth Government, and up to the present moment have treated as confidential supporting documents which had been sent to them with our memorandum. This, to me, is the most practical proof that could be furnished of their desire to co-operate with the Commonwealth Government, and is a certain guarantee that wc shall succeed in our aim to secure a national plan of development and defence and to evolve the necessary machinery to carry it out. Australian settlement and development have not been: along lines suited to the carrying out of a considered plan. Settlement was begun in different parts of the continent at different times, and from those various points, the country was " peacocked " in a more or less haphazard fashion. With such a huge continent, the development of ports was essential for the export of minerals and Other primary products, and those ports grew bigger and bigger. In the early days there was no question that the existence of those ports as a principal Centre in the industrial life of the country was safe enough, sailing boats being the only vessels on the ocean and the range of guns being so short. But today, with vessels having a speed of 30 miles an hour, a gun range of 30 miles, find the ability to catapult aeroplanes into the air in order to launch an attack on our towns, it is quite obvious that steps must be taken to ensure that all of our vital industries shall not be on the coast but shall be distributed throughout the length and breadth of the country. If that can be done on a considered plan, we shall have such a distribution of population, such a lay-out of our railways, roads, water supplies and power propositions, as will ensure better land defence than would otherwise be possible. It is manifest to any person who considers the defence position in the light of the test to which it was subjected during the critical last two or three months, that the haphazard system of the past has not given the results that are needed in this country; there must be a concerted plan. The problem is further complicated by the fact that, in addition to the money that we need for our development, provision has to be made for an unexampled expenditure on defence works and equipment, and arrangements have to be completed for the conversion of a -huge amount of internal loans. Just after the war, Australia was faced with a very difficult financial problem; arrangements had to be made for the conversion of the whole of the war loans, totalling more than £200,000,000, during a period of three or four years, and simultaneously money had to be raised for developmental purposes. This led to the constitution of the Loan Council. It would have been absolutely impossible, without the elimination of competition between governments, to achieve the result of, first, the conversion of the war loans raised in times of enthusiasm, and secondly, the raising of the money necessary for developmental purposes. So successful was that co-operative arrangement that the people, at a referendum, agreed to its being embodied in the Constitution. We are now faced with an even greater problem, in that we have not merely to convert loans but have also to find money for developmental purposes and for defence. The Government believed that the Loan Council was the proper body to initiate the necessary planning, and that an expert committee should be attached to it for the purpose of obtaining all the details of the different plans. It took to the Loan 'Council and the conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers three specific proposals. The first proposal was that arrangements should be made for the conversion of loans aggregating £70,000,000 which are falling due, and, concurrently, that an additional £4.000,000 should be raised for definite purposes. The second proposal was that the States should agree to substitute for certain pf their proposed works other works which would have an indirect defence value and would not cause any displacement of labour. The third proposal was for the formation of a council to advise the Loan Council and the various governments regarding the order of importance and priority in public works needed for developmental and defence purposes. When a statement on these lines was made in this House, the Leader of the Opposition first said that it contained platitudes; but immediately afterwards he said - These suggestions are on all-fours with everything the Opposition has said during the last few years as being the basis upon which to make Australia a safe country. If they were platitudes, what the honorable member had been saying for many years also was platitudinous; tut they were not - they went right down to the very fundamentals of the position. The honorable gentleman further said - I believe that the suggestion for an advisory committee- 1198 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER Order! The right honorable gentleman is not in order in reading the report of that debate. 1192 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - The Leader of the Opposition, I am sure, will acquit me of any intention to misquote him when I say that he believed that the suggestion for the appointment of an advisory committee was a good one. 1192 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - Hear, hear! 1192 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - The honorable gentleman suggested that that committee should be attached to the Loan Council, the activities of which should he expanded to permit of that being done. That was exactly the proposition which the Commonwealth placed before the State governments. Co-operation was secured on all of these three points. It was a matter, not of passing any facesaving resolution but of actual agreement on specific details. I suppose that no one will doubt that arrangements were made for the conversion of £70,000,000 of loans, and for the raising of an additional £4,000,000 for defence purposes. In the second place, arrangements were made for works to be dealt with in detail, and for the transfer of works between the various governments. Far. from the Commonwealth Government not having brought down specific recommendations, the Premier of New South Wales told the conference that his officers had already been in communication with the Defence Department, and had prepared schedules of works which were at that time under discussion. Mr. Stevens, according to the official report of the conference, said : - Our officers, in conjunction with the military officers and the Minister for Defence, have prepared fairly comprehensive schedules of works. These are now before the Defence authorities. It is for those authorities either to accept them or substitute others. That gives the lie to the story that the conference had nothing to consider. The whole matter had already been discussed between the officers of the Defence Department and officers of the various States. The Minister for Defence yesterday gave testimony as to the kind of work that would be required in the several States. If one glances at the statements made by the Other Premiers one sees that they either submitted certain propositions or were ready to submit them, as was also the Commonwealth Government. This brings me to the third point, the formation of an advisory committee. This proposal was supported in every quarter. The Premier of New South Wales said : - You, Mr. Prime Minister, have suggested that the Loan Council should appoint an advisory committee, and that its functions should be defined in relation to (a) such works as will serve the dual purposes of defence and development, and (b) purely developmental works and industrial development, coupled with migration. The suggestion is that this advisory committee shall consist of officers of the Loan Council, officers of the Commonwealth and State Governments, military officers, and men chosen from outside because of their knowledge of industry. Its constitution would necessitate an agreement to extend the activities of the Loan Council. I am prepared to support such a proposal, provided that the committee will also deal with the financial policy which will be necessary for the success of the scheme as a whole. It was suggested that there was a vague proposal, but here was a proposition stated in precise terms by one of the State Premiers. The Premier of Victoria (Mr. Dunstan) declared: - Victoria will be only too pleased to cooperate in forming an advisory or investigating committee, but I emphasize that the powers of the governments must not be handed over to any committee. Should a committee be appointed it must be purely advisory to the governments which must accept the final responsibility for any action that may be taken. That is what the Commonwealth Government suggested, and I take it that it would also be the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition. 1192 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - I am not prepared to surrender governmental powers to boards or committees. 1192 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - The committee was merely to recommend the order of priority of certain works, and the various governments concerned would have to take responsibility for their decisions regarding them. The Premier of Queensland (Mr. Forgan Smith) remarked: - I believe that the, resources of Australia are such that with national planning the defence expenditure can be met, and a large amount of developmental work can be done; but we should not overlook the necessity for organizing, not only jobs and works, but also the finance on reasonable terms which is necessary to carry out the scheme. Therefore, I give every support to the proposal for establishing new industries in the areas that are economically most suited for them. The Government should do everything in its power to encourage the establishment of now industries. Our watchword should be the establishment of industries right throughout the Commonwealth, not their concentration in any one area. 1193 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - Does the right honorable gentleman say that the Commonwealth Government did not intend that the advisory committee should decide the priority of works? 1193 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - I shall quote the words of the motion submitted by me at the conference, which will show that no such suggestion was made. The motion was in these terms : - That an advisory committee be appointed to consider the problems of industrial development and the location of industrial facilities in Australia, and to report upon the order of priority in which public works related thereto should be carried out. That the advisory committee consist of representatives of the Commonwealth, of the States and of industry. That the committee report from time to time to the Loan Council. The Premier of Victoria suggested that the motion should be amended to read as follows : - That an advisory committee be appointed to consider the problems of industrial development and the location of industrial facilities in Australia, and to report thereon to the Loan Council. 1193 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - It seems extraordinary that Mr. Dunstan should have moved such an amendment if he had not placed a stronger construction on the Commonwealth proposal than its text suggested. 1193 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - The suggestion of certain State Premiers was that the representation on the committee would be so strong that the various governments would be compelled to adopt its recom mendations, as those of experts. The representative of Western Australia, Mr. Troy, said- So long as the. States do not lose the initiative that they now possess in regard to public works, I cannot see much wrong with the proposal. In any case, the States should not refuse to co-operate in a matter of such importance. Mr. Ogilvie, the Attorney General of Tasmania, stated We are prepared to co-operate with the Commonwealth and the other States in an endeavour to arrive at a plan aimed at development for defence. The Commonwealth Government's proposals so far have been on extremely broad and general lines, and are capable of very varying interpretation. A body of the nature suggested should be appointed, even if it only undertook the investigation of an insignificant portion of the expenditure of loan money by the various governments. With the exception of about ?130,000,000 expended in connexion with primary production, the public debts incurred by the States since 1918 have represented expenditure on public works. In addition, in the last eight years, ?48,000,000 has been expended on semi-governmental works, whilst about ?78,000,000 has been expended by way of unemployment relief works. This expenditure totals well over ?600,000,000. If, in regard to even 10 per cent, of that total, a planned investigation had been made as to the best way to use the money, so that the works undertaken would stand behind Commonwealth defence activities proper, ensuring that in respect of vulnerable industries there would be alternative sites for the provision of transport and power, Australia would have been in a much better position than it finds itself in to-day. I take it that, in the next twenty years, we are almost certain to require a sum almost equal to that already expended on development. Surely we cannot start too early to arrange a definite plan under which the Commonwealth and the States can work together. The proposal submitted to the conference was not published in the press in its precise terms. All sorts of wild stories were circulated about extraordinary expenditure on development, but the idea of giving effect to the plan immediately was carefully concealed. The impression was given that it was a long-range and visionary scheme. Certainly it was a long-range plan, but not a visionary one. I have previously brought forward proposals for co-operation between the Commonwealth and the States, and they have been regarded as fantastic. They have been objected to by the Opposition in this Parliament, yet they have received the active support of State governments composed of men of the same party as the Opposition. These schemes were actually brought into being. 1194 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - What schemes? 1194 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - I shall give several instances. Take the formation of the Loan Council and the validation of the financial agreement. That proposal was submitted to the people, and agreed to by an overwhelming majority. Yet, in 1929, when we tried to ensure that the agreement would be given effect, the Opposition in this Parliament opposed the Financial Agreement Bill on the second reading and in committee, and even on the third reading, although Labour governments were in office in three of the States and had endorsed the proposal. I shall give another illustration of co-operation. When the Federal Aid Roads scheme was introduced in this Parliament, the great majority of the members of the Labour party voted against it. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) supported it, as did several other Labour members, because they realized that it would be invaluable to the States, and would assist in developing the country, as well as give skilled and permanent employment. 1194 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - The States had to ask the Commonwealth Government to amend the scheme drastically. 1194 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - When the original bill was submitted, the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), who was then Leader of the Opposition, opposed the scheme on the ground that its continuation invaded State rights, hut the present Leader of the Opposition objected to it more recently only on the ground that the Commonwealth was being made the victim of the States. That is typical of the opposition met with in regard to matters of this kind. The proposal for the standardization of railway gauges has for years been part of the policy of the Federal Labour party. The Bruce-Page Government took the first substantial step in the direction of the standardization of gauges by providing for the conversion to the standard gauge of the line from Grafton to Brisbane, thus providing a uniform gauge from Albury to Brisbane. The right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes), the honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr) and the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) will recall that the Opposition kept us at work for two nights in succession in getting that measure through the House. Although the standardization of railway gauges was one of the cardinal features of the policy of the Federal Labour party, and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition voted for the Grafton to Brisbane proposal, the majority of the members of the Labour party voted against it. To secure the standardization of the section from Grafton to Brisbane, we had to secure co-operation between the Labour Government of Queensland, the Government of New South Wales and the Commonwealth Government. The Bunnerong power station supplies electricity for the whole of the industrial life of Sydney. It is situated on the seafront. Its position is very exposed, and it can readily be seen from the sea or the air. It stands out like a sore thumb, and it invites attack. Surely one of the first things that should be thought of is the provision- of an alternative source of electric power, lest in . the first week or month of a war, the Bunnerong power station be smashed. Yesterday, Alderman Cramer, a member of the Sydney County Council, condemned the proposal to expend a further £70,000 on the Bunnerong power house, because of its excessive vulnerability. He suggested that the money should be expended in some other place on the provision of an alternative supply of power so that, in the event of war, the industries of Sydney could not be paralysed at a stroke. If, for instance, a supplementary power house were established at Lithgow, Sydney could still be supplied with power even if the main source of its supply were destroyed. However, to make that a commercial proposition, it would be necessary to develop a series of industries around the new source of power, so as to provide a profitable outlet for it. We must have our plans ready and carried into effect, because the destruction of Sydney's power supply is something that might happen at the very beginning of a war. The advisory committee would have such plans ready and determine the order of priority in which the works should be carried out. Let us consider another example of the need for planning. Great Britain has made tremendous efforts to provide in that country immense stores of food so that the population may not be starved out in wartime. However, because food is essentially perishable, and because it is difficult to provide a large amount of storage except at excessive cost, the Government of Great Britain has requested the dominions in their turn to establish refrigerated store houses on deep water if possible, so that, at the outbreak of war> the stored food may be shipped across to Great Britain as quickly as possible. It is necessary at the same time to establish in the vicinity of those storehouses other industries which can use the refrigerated space. That is another development which must be undertaken without delay. Not so very far from here the railway between Sydney and Albury becomes a single track, which would create a dangerous bottleneck in time of emergency. Either the track should be duplicated, or another line should be constructed which could handle the traffic in time of need. These matters require planning and cooperation, and they will never be attended to unless a scheme of the kind we have envisaged be put into operation. Therefore, we suggested that a new investigating authority should be attached to the Loan Council, which is the only body really representative of the Commonwealth and States. If that were done, no Government would feel that its sovereignty was being invaded. It would have the final say in regard to the allocation of the money to be expended on works. At the present time, the Loan Council allocates funds to the various States. Surely the seven governments ought to consult as to the order of priority of the various works to be under taken in order that precedence might be given to those of the greatest defence value. Moreover, having the greater part of our population in two of the eastern States, it- is imperative that we should devise means to establish more industries in the States with smaller populations. That can be done only if all the facts are marshalled, so that we may know what steps should be taken to ensure that industries shall be established in those States. It may in some instances call for some form of Commonwealth subvention. An example of what can happen when such matters are unregulated is provided by the Lithgow ironworks. Years ago the ironworks were established at Lithgow, 100 miles from the sea, and near coal supplies. Why were they shifted down to Port Kembla, a place which is vulnerable to attack, so that £400,000 has had to be expended on its defence? It was because of the State railway policy in regard to freights. Honorable members will realize the importance of having as many baskets as possible for our eggs. We must plan to bring about the proper distribution of our population, and the proper location of our industries. These matters were discussed by the Loan Council, which agreed to two out of the three proposals put before it, while consideration of the third point was deferred until a later meeting. Therefore, the suggestion that the conference was a failure is a grotesque libel of the facts. However, the results that we are seeking can be achieved only by co-operation between the State and Commonwealth authorities, and we should do everything possible to ensure that co-operation, if. in the end, it cannot be obtained by the ordinary constitutional means, it may be necessary to adopt other methods. The Prime Minister has appealed for unity and co-operation in order to make a success of the present system of voluntary military training. I appeal to all sections for co-operation in this matter of planning our economic and industrial development. It is a matter which cannot be dealt with by any. one parliament, or any one government. The co-operation of all parliaments and all governments is essential. I appeal first for unity within our own parties, and then for the co-operation of all parties in this Parliament, and of all parties throughout Australia, to ensure that this country, which we all love, shall be satisfactorily defended. 1196 JSC Batman 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr BRENNAN .- Some of us have listened with interest, ro parts at least, of the most earnest and eloquent address just delivered by the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page). Some of us, no doubt, sympathized with him in the grievance which he discovered in the early part of his oration.- Some of us, perhaps, did not sympathize quite so much. The right honorable gentleman concluded his speech by making a symposium of all that matter which he had already submitted to the Loan Council. As everybody knows, he went to that meeting of the Loan Council charged with a mass of undigested matter regarding public works of a defensive character. Even now he maintains that it was not a chimerical scheme, but a highly practical one to establish industries, and to enter upon works, which would be practical and more or less reproductive in their nature, while above all possessing the attributes of defence, so that they might amplify the already enormously expanded defence policy of the Government. I should like to ask the right honorable gentleman a few simple questions. Is it not a fact that he was Deputy Prime "Minister in the Bruce-Page Government for seven years? During all that time what did he do in regard to these matters which he foresaw were urgent, and which he still maintains are essential? He has been a member of the present Government for four years. During that time what has he done in regard to those so urgent matters ? "What has he to show for the time that he has occupied positions of power and responsibility in succeeding governments in this Parliament? What, in a word, has he done except talk about these things? He has done nothing. Are we to assume that he has been a mere cypher in three successive governments; that they did not take him seriously, and that he has been content to remain a Minister, even though not-taken seriously? It is idle for him to complain in this Parliament, and still more idle for him to make it a ground of complaint against the Opposition, that he has not been able to give effect to his proposals, when he has, apparently, not even been able to convince his own party of their importance. The right honorable" gentleman began with a serious complaint against the press, and it is quite refreshing to hear such a complaint from such a source. He did not state ' precisely what part of the press was blameworthy, against what particular newspapers he complained, but, in general terms he voiced a bitter complaint against the press as such. I confess that I am not here for the purpose of making a spirited defence of the daily press, but I should like to ask the right honorable gentleman does not he, and his Government, and his party, live by this press which he so roundly castigates? What, may I ask, would be the Government's chance of survival if it did not accept direction in regard to every hysterical, swashbuckling scheme that is a dumb rated in the press, and put before the people? It could not live, politically, for a day. I suggest that it is only because the Government is in extremis, because it is at its last gasp, that the right honorable gentleman is now biting his friends. It is because its members are fighting and contending with one another, that a leading member of the Government ventures now to make this belated attack. But does he think - he is vastly mistaken if he does - that because the press is strong it will be merciful? He will be ridden to death as will every public man who places his political and personal fortunes in the keeping of daily newspapers. The Attorney-General sometimes complains that he is misreported in the press. I heard such a complaint quite recently. It is very amusing to realize that ever since the right honorable gentleman has been a member of this Parliament, he has been the darling of the press. He sits in his place in this chamber the very embodiment of wisdom, saying nothing, and basking in the unearned adulations of the daily newspapers. That is the extent of his contribution towards a solution of the serious problems which are harassing the people of Australia. His efforts, it is true, have been no more fruitful than his inaction. The right honorable gentleman came to this Parliament as the chosen of the moneyed interests in Melbourne to rise to the Prime Ministership, when, in due course, the present holder of that high and distinguished office had been included in the long list of those, who, having left the Labour party, are themselves left. One newspaper published in Melbourne issued instructions to its special representatives in Canberra that whatever else they did, Menzies was to be praised. They may criticize even the head of the Government and other members of the Ministry, hut as the Attorney-General had been chosen by "big business " as the successor to this high office, whatever he says and whatever he does - if he ever does anything - he is to be constantly praised. Because one newspaper said that he had no imagination - he was shocked that any section of the press should make even a minor reflection upon his impeccability - he rose in indignation to disown the soft impeachment. There is nothing more disturbing in public life than to see a man in politics driven by external forces which are not responsible to Parliament. There is nothing more calculated to excite terror in. the breasts of the people than to find a public man in a responsible position with his ear to the ground in order that h,'.c popularity may not be disturbed. It is necessary and desirable to get to the root cause of the present failure in leadership and of the disintegration and personal jealousies and recriminations. When the Attorney-General first entered State politics, he had the reputation of being an eminent lawyer, of possessing a striking personality, and of having courage, wit am i originality. He displayed these qualities at the expense of our friends in the corner and also at the expense of the Assistant Minister. He stated his views forcibly and revealed himself as a man of originality and vitality. But he was not in the State Parliament long before he found that it did not pay. He then came to Canberra where he had an entirely different outlook. He became a different man. He came chained to the financial interests which had nominated him for the highest position in" this Parliament under marching orders. In lesser things perfect, in greater things wanting. For example, in setting the seal upon Australia's nationhood by the adoption of certain relevant sections of the Statute of Westminster, he has failed lamentably. On several occasions he has declared that .that statute embodies a significant part of the policy of this Government, but the voice of the flatterer has told him to " go slow " and he has not dared to do what he knows to be his duty. He has listened to the voice of the groundling, and has flagrantly broken pledges he has repeatedly given in matters of high statesmanship. My mind goes back to the men who made great names for themselves in this country. I recall such men as Higinbotham, Higgins, and going further back, Wentworth, men of individuality and courage, who did something to build up this young country, and were themselves. The Attorney-General is a tableau a Lid prefers to be a statue placed in position for decorative purposes. He is afraid to speak his mind. Even minor criticism which appeared in a section of the press concerning what is alleged to have passed between him and the Prime Minister unnerves him. Everybody knows that he has been nominated, and that he has accepted nomination, as Australia's next Prime Minister, under the terms and conditions of those who wish him to hold that office. He has competitors, of course. My honorable friend, the Treasurer, also complains. 1197 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - Why be so spiteful ? 1197 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr BRENNAN - I am not spiteful. I have always been on friendly terms, in a personal sense, with the Attorney-General. I should like him to be a statesman, fearless and unashamed, refusing to be the instrument of outside interests. I should like him to stand up with shoulders squared to the newspapers which are covering him with adulation quite unearned. I shall now leave this potential leader. I am dealing' with the leadership of this Government, and all of the gentlemen to whom I am referring are at least potential leaders. The Treasurer is an amiable person of the English tradition, a.nd, of course, loyal to the " old school tie ". In his opinion, no departure may be made' from the accepted tradition. He is a competent Treasurer in many respects. He is a pleasing man to deal with. He holds 30me views on finance, orthodox to-day, not so orthodox yesterday, and some opinions on defence that are not made in Australia. During this debate we have heard much on the subject of defence and finance. About a year ago the Treasurer attended a conference at Canberra - I think they designated it the (Summer School - on political science, at which he contributed an interesting historical paper on Australia's relations with the Mother Country. Being historical it was for the most part historically accurate. At the close of the discussion at that conference the Government, which of course includes the Treasurer, was charged with neglecting the defence of this country. It was said that very little had been done, and that money for the defence of Australia was not made available by the Treasury. The Treasurer nose indignantly and said that whatever money was needed for defence would be provided, and that the Minister for Defence was the only Minister who could " write his own ticket". That went very well until the House met; but when he entered this chamber he was confronted with questions by honorable members in Opposition as to whether that statement was to be taken literally, and he replied, "No, not literally; caution has to be exercised ". Such expenditure he explained had to run the gauntlet of investigation and examination. I have not his precise words before me but they are on record. He gracefully recanted. In due course a meeting of the Loan Council was held at Canberra. It was what is generally known as a " frost ". It was a " washout ". I think that is the correct phrase. 1198 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane Mr. Lane interjecting, 1198 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - 'Order ! The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) must cease interjecting. 1198 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr BRENNAN - The right honorable the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) elaborated a scheme for submission to that conference, which was, as the Sydney Morning Herald said, nebulous, and full of idealism, utterly impracticable. The right honorable gentle man submitted that scheme, but nothing was done about it. The Governments of the several States were represented at the conference. There was Mr. Dunstan from my own State. There were at least three Labour Premiers, and there was, of course, the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Stevens. The newspapers had worked up an atmosphere of hysteria and public terror on the question of defence in Australia. The imaginary enemy! And what was the result of it all? The result was that the mountain laboured long, and brought forth not even a mouse; the conference produced nothing. And for what reason? The Premier of Victoria, Mr. Dunstan, is a practical man, and he has a scheme of works, amongst other schemes, for the unemployed of Victoria. He is supported by the Labour party of Victoria and has his practical proposals put into operation and- carried through. He went to the conference and said, " What is the proposal? An advisory council to decide the priorities of these urgent works in each of our various States in favour of defence " ? Mr. Dunstan rejected it. Mr. Stevens from New South Wales rejected it; all rejected it in various terms of -polite negation. It was all left in the air. Nothing was done. Mr. "Stevens discovered himself, suddenly, as an inflationist, with an interest in the unemployed, and then this curious development occurred. The Commonwealth Treasurer (Mr.Casey) returned from the conference, at which high finance stood its ground and the Premiers got away with the hone. The Treasurer made an attack upon his colleague of the United Australia party in New South Wales, Mr. Stevens. He accused him of being an inflationist, which, of course, he is; but then, in the words of the play, " Aren't they all " ? since the far-off days when Labour was turned out of office because it had the same ideas. The honorable gentleman accused Mr. Stevens of being an inflationist, and the Argus of the 25th October reprimanded him. If it were a Labour newspaper advocating the raising of money for legitimate Labour purposes, for the people who are unemployed, for the rising tide of youth who have been cheated out of their rights in this country, for the construe- tion of workers' homes and for the abolition of the slum - in redemption of the promise made several years ago by the Prime Minister, which has never been redeemed - one could understand it, but the statement appears in the one time ultra-Conservative and profoundly right-thinking journal of Victoria. It makes these observations - There seems to be more fear than rage in Mr. Casey's attack upon Mr. Stevens. This getting " the blow in fust " is poor tactics and is not likely to perturb Mr. Stevens unduly. "In Federal circles", Mr. Casey says (whatever the phrase may mean), "Mr. Stevens' policy of liberal credit is regarded as a policy of inflation." How these brothers in the United Australia party do love one another - lt does not matter how it is regarded or what it is called. Money is required for the defence of Australia, and the Commonwealth Government must find the money- " Must find the money " - not even " real " money, mark you ! It continues - A courageous policy of defence is demanded, and the Commonwealth Government must find the policy - the present Government or another. A little lower down it says - Theories! What concern have we with theories when we are .naked to our enemies ? "Naked to our enemies" ! In 1933, through its then Minister for Defence, Sir Archdale Parkhill, the Government introduced a policy of defence which was considered to be completely adequate and sufficient - all-embracing and revolutionary in its magnitude, but still necessary and sufficient. It is now merely a " flea-bite ". After all these millions of pounds have been spent and a programme of £40,000,000 odd has been a dumb rated and published, now, in the light, of the public declaration of the present Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) that this £43,000;000 programme is merely a beginning. Already we have £53,000,000 of expenditure in sight. In spite of all, we are naked according to protagonists of the United Australia party. In my view, to a great degree, we are naked because the more money which is poured into the maw, the insatiable maw to which there is no bottom, the more naked do we become. From my point of view, it is ridiculous to expend money in amounts which increase by millions of pounds with every flow of hysteria from the swashbucklers. From my point of view it is ridiculous, but from the point of view of the diseased sensationalists, it is the acme of perfection. The Argus says - But the Commonwealth Bank is not, whatever the Federal Treasurer may think, or may submit to, the dictator of Australian Government. It has no responsibility to the people. The Commonwealth Bank has no responsibility ! It must not stand in the way ! That newspaper applauded the appointment of the Commonwealth Bank .Board; and when the Labour Government was in power, and this country was scratching for its life to find money for works, to pay the debts of the country, and to keep it out of the bankruptcy court, said then that we must' be "guided by men who were disinterested and had the stable wisdom of the members of the Commonwealth Bank Board. But to-day, for war purposes, when there is no war, it says that the Commonwealth Bank Board must not stand in the way of money being poured into the insatiable maw. In 1935, £7,000,000; in 1938, £53,000,000, and in 1939, £100,000,000! The Commonwealth Bank Board must be swept aside, and the Commonwealth Government must find the money ! From where? From out of the blue? What was the reaction of the Treasurer when he awoke and saw what this imperfectly orthodox newspaper had published? Previously, the Argus had been a respectably Conservative journal. It has now become a stunt journal, but, not being used to or trained in the profession of stunting, when it comes into competition with a newspaper which has always been a stunter, like the Melbourne Herald, it is completely out-distanced. The Treasurer was so concerned with this unexpected bolt from the blue that he not merely made a statement, but actually wrote a letter to the paper, and the newspaper was so flattered- that it gave the letter a privileged place alongside the leading article. Under the heading " Defence and Finance ; Mr. Casey States His Policy" is a long letter signed " R. G. Casey, Canberra." He starts by saying- Sir,- -I have read the leading article in your issue of to-day with amazement and consternation-- I quite believe it - In the whole of my political life, I have never experienced such a public misrepresentation of my views. The wheel is turning. This is the second phase of the somersault. The letter goes on - You state in effect that I say that the money necessary for defence cannot be found; that there is a certain quantity of money normally available; and that the necessities of defence in a national emergency must be restricted. Nothing is further from the facts. Why should it be? When did it become far from the facts in the mind of the honorable gentleman that there is a certain quantity of money normally available for defence? [Leave to continue given.] The honorable gentleman continued in this way - Just as much money will be found for defence - just as much and just as fast as it is wanted. Let me state, too, just as definitely and just as unequivocally that the Commonwealth Bank Board does not stand in the way of raising money for defence, and would bc swept out of the way if it attempted to do so. Whatever the Argus may profess to fear., the idea of the board's attempting to dictate defence or any other policy to the Government is so ludicrous that further comment would be superfluous..... I repeat, as 1 have stated publicly before, that since I have been Federal Treasurer the Defence Department has in effect written its own ticket in matters of finance. And so the Treasurer - the antiinflationist, the orthodox financier and defender of the Bank Board, so familiar to us in his best English-Australian style with everything in perfect order - immediately he is challenged in the inspired columns of the Argus, upon which he depends for his political existence, recants and makes a full confession of faith not in accordance with what he had conceived to be Argus policy but in accordance with what he sees to his great surprise and consternation is the suddenly-changed policy of the Argus. As the electors of Corio are still the electors of Corio, and still Argus readers, and do not discriminate greatly between the Argus of to-day and yester- day - the Argus of stunt days - and the Argus of pre-stunt days, it follows that the honorable gentleman who depends on the press to win the Corio seat must, as the weathercock changes with the moving wind, change ever so rapidly - from day to day if necessary - adjusting his policy no longer in accordance with old school tie conditions but in accordance with that which will best suit him to hold his place or a better one in this extraordinary Government of spare parts. I come now to the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) who is a potential leader in this Government. But really one does not like to criticize him; * it is a shame to take the money ; he offers such poor resistance. It is to the more hopeful gentlemen who are getting such liberal support from the press in respect of which they are so restless this morning that I wished rather to address a little friendly criticism and advice. No doubt as the result of press reports this morning, there will be a lot more personal explanations later in the day. Undoubtedly the Government is crumbling, and it is equally true that the seeds of disintegration and decay were planted in it at the beginning, not in the sense that certain organic matter possesses from its beginning its element of disintegration, decay and death, but in the fact that it has always been composed of mutually discordant parts. In the early stages it was a United Australia party Government composed 'of an ancient order of quitters to which faculty a certain number of freshers was added; but they were all United Australia party members. When the next election came around it could no longer be known as the United Australia party Government. Room had to be made for the Country party. Then the problem of the adjustment of portfolios followed. It was a protectionist Government and as it would never do to have a Country party representative as Minister for Trade and Customs so the page boy, the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) was made the nominal Minister for Trade and Customs and the Minister for Commerce was chosen from the Country party because it would not sound so bad calling such a member a Minister for Commerce. Then when we -sent as a delegation to England the Minister for Trade and Customs ostensibly to uphold the inalienable protectionist policy of Australia, and the Minister for Commerce trying his best to pull it down, as he has frequently said he would do, it was also necessary to send the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) to stand between them and keep the peace. The Attorney-General also stands nominally for protection, but as he has no views on this subject his task was easy; he looked the part to perfection. Consequently, when the great struggle took place in England it was not a struggle between our representatives and those of the British Government. The real struggle which took place was between the Minister for Trade and Customs, who abdicated in favour of the Attorney-General, and the Minister for Commerce, who was putting the opposite view. A friend of mine who was in London at the time, and who recently returned to Australia, said to me the other day, " You sent over three Ministers, but they did not seem to know what they wanted. They were pulling in different directions, so that it was very difficult to tell exactly what Australia requires in regard to the adjustment of our trade relations ". The Minister for Trade and Customs got over his dilemma easily; he set out for Brighton with a. posy of flowers which he presented to the Mayoress of Brighton and conveyed to the Mayor and. Mayoress of that city messages on behalf of the Mayor and Mayoress of Brighton in Victoria. He then faded out of the picture and was not heard of again except insofar as the newspapers published very illuminating and interesting pictures of all three gentlemen attending the various test matches. In one of these pictures they appear as three graceful curves on the grandstand observing a test match, and the Prime Minister is represented as looking quizzically into their faces and saying, " Ah, there you are!". That is the history of this important mission to England. To-day, in Australia, we no longer have government on principle by a number of persons holding the same political views like honorable members on this side do, standing to the same platform and the same ideals and, as the late Labour Government revealed, prepared to form a homogeneous government capable of giving effect to a definite policy. Today it is purely a question of numbers against the Labour party. At -all times Labour, at a moderate estimate, stands at least for about half of the people of Australia. We possess a homogeneous policy, but opposed to us is a government which survives by taking a man into the Ministry to-day and rejecting him tomorrow - reconstruction as the Government is pleased to call it - and to-day taking in men whose views differ from its own and carrying them along until circumstances make it essential to throw thom overboard and appoint somebody else. Some are brought in because, like the Assistant Minister for Commerce and the Minister for Defence, they crash their way in by criticizing and attacking the Government. It is dangerous to have too big a tail, so this Government appointed two parliamentary secretaries. It gives them nothing to do but leaves them moving around like goldfish in a coloured bottle. These are the so-called parliamentary secretaries. In England such officials sit at the table and accept responsibilities. A Minister in the House of Lords is represented by a parliamentary secretary in the House of Commons, and vice versa, and that secretary shoulders responsibility. He exercises important administrative functions, but in Australia that is not at all the case. Here supporters of the Government are appointed as parliamentary secretaries and the Government says, in effect, to them, " If you keep on supporting us long enough you will enter the fold in one of these reconstructions, but only providing you keep quiet ". In that way aspirants to Cabinet honours are kept quiet. On the other hand, however, we have the Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Hughes), the rogue elephant of the Government, which does not know whether he is safer in or out of the Cabinet. The Government took him in and he opposed its policy. When the Government favoured sanctions he opposed them and was put out of this Cabinet, but when he threatened all sorts of "things it begged him to return. He was less dangerous in than out. Then he discovered that the Prime Minister was getting the good oil direct from London and said that that would not do, so he attacked the Dominions Office. I do not quite know why he did so, but the Prime Minister immediately defended the Dominions Office and we witnessed the spectacle of two senior Ministers fighting each other in the public gaze. Then the Minister for External Affairs' went off to New Guinea and decided to establish the capital in a certain place, but on his return he was told that the capital must be established on a different site. He does not know yet where the capital of New Guinea is to be. That is how this Government is carrying on. What wonder is it, therefore, that this motion should be moved? What a great thing it would be if it were carried by men anxious to do a public duty in scorn of consequences and in scorn of party. I invite honorable members to carry the motion, which reads - That, because of its lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. It has never had my confidence.* 1202 KUG Warringah 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER . - My remarks at this juncture will be confined to a limited ambit. My first comment is that I have always thought that purely destructive criticism advances no cause. After listening to the debate, and particularly to the address just delivered by the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan), I am satisfied that whatever merit the criticism levelled against the Government for any of its past delinquencies may contain, no alternative has been given, to any honorable member who has any sense of responsibility of government but to oppose the motion. I have heard many excellent speeches delivered by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) in this House. I always listen carefully to his speeches, knowing that he can be relied upon- to make some contribution towards the solution of the problems confronting this Parliament, but I feel that in moving this motion he himself has no belief in his cause. When I am confronted with the choice of voting either for a government against which I have directed some criticism, or for an opposition which has advanced no constructive alternative for the solution of the very urgent problems confronting this country, my duty is very plain. I say deliberately, despite the comments of the honorable member for Batman, that I would have no hesitation whatever in crossing the floor of the House to vote a government out of power if I thought that the result of so doing would be to place the destiny of my country in better hands. But I am not satisfied that that would be the result of such action on this occasion. Indeed, I am convinced that if it were, the Consequence would be chaos in Australia. What we need in this country is scientific government. But no constructive ideas have been advanced by honorable members opposite for solving the problems that face us. I am earnest enough to believe that in any completely organized society every able-bodied man or woman should be able to obtain work. But after listening to the declarations of honorable members opposite, who claim that their primary purpose in this Parliament is to represent the working people of Australia, I have been forced to the conclusion that if they were placed in charge of the affairs of Australia our condition would be worse rather than better. They have given us no idea as to how our defence programme should be managed, or as to how the disorganization of industry, due to the diverting of operations to defence work, could be coped with. The transfer of a large proportion of our industrial activities to defence work must inevitably cause a tremendous disorganization of industry. But apart from observations made by the Leader of the Opposition in a recent speech, and to certain remarks of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), no honorable gentleman opposite has given any indication that he is at all concerned about scientific planning, or that he would attempt to adopt such a policy. It is necessary, of course, that any pronouncement in respect of scientific planning must be expressed in somewhat general terms; but it is my firm conviction that unless the Government is placed on a scientific basis, the democracies cannot hope to survive. We are being forced to incur wasteful expenditure on armaments. No one in his senses would deny that every penny "spent on re-armament is robbing the country of real wealth. Unfortunately, Australia at the present moment cannot adopt any other policy. As I listened to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition on this motion, I detected some measure of inconsistency in his views. He said there was necessity for adopting proper defensive methods in Australia, and that those which the Government had adopted were inadequate. Yet he went on to complain that further unnecessary expenditure on defence measures was unwarranted. It appears to me that there can be no escape from expenditure on defence measures in view of world activities at present. Each nation of the world is indulging in what is known in Germany as "defence economics"; that is, the complete control of the resources and economic strength of the country in time of peace for military preparedness. We do not desire war. The British .people, particularly the Australian people, desire peace above all things. But I am not foolish enough to believe that peace comes merely by expressing the pious hope that it will come. I have had forced upon me, therefore, the obligation to support a programme involving a huge expenditure on defence measures, although I know that a careful analysis of the situation must strengthen the belief that money spent in this way inevitably lowers the living conditions of the people. It is because of this that I am particularly concerned about the nature of government. At present, democracy functions in a certain way. I do not propose to make any .comment upon the methods by which cabinets are chosen, nor, in the course of my speech, shall I discuss personalities. Appointments to a cabinet is a matter entirely for a Prime Minister. But, under the present system, Ministers have no time whatever to give any really constructive thinking to the problems of the country. As a continuance 'of this policy must finally bring disaster, it ought to he changed quickly. As things are, honorable members may at any time interview Ministers. Ministers find their hands more than full with administrative details. It is a remarkable fact that practically every letter which an honorable member receives from a Minister bears his own personal signature. The amount of time that is taken up by Minis ters in purely administrative detail is wholly disproportionate. Ministers have no time, in present circumstances, to devote to thinking about the solution of the problems which face the country. Our system is to blame. I have heard attacks made upon the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby). I shall not join in them. I realize that whatever criticism may be levelled against the honorable gentleman - and there is room for criticism of his administration in certain respects - he has discharged his duties in an infinitely better way than did some of his predecessors. While I would prefer that persons whom I criticize were present at the time of the criticism, I feel that in justice to the Minister for Defence, I should say that the condition of the defence services of this country when he took over the portfolio were such as to place upon him a tremendous task, which he has done his best to discharge. 1203 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - The honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) is being very unjust to his predecessor. 1203 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - Justice to one person may involve injustice to another. It does not matter a penny piece to me what comment the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer (Mr. John Lawson) may make. I say deliberately that the task which confronted the present Minister for Defence when he took over his portfolio was one. of stupendous magnitude, and it would not have been so had his predecessor had sufficient vision in respect to the matter. 1203 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green - The honorable member is showing a very poor spirit. 1203 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - He is criticizing a man who is not here to defend himself. 1203 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - I said that I would prefer that he was here. The duty of the Minister for Defence has been to discharge, to the very limit of his ability, the important duties that devolve upon him. But no Minister of this Government can discharge his duties properly under our present system, for he has practically no time to devote to policy. It is well known that re-armament must result in a complete disorganization of the industries of a country, for men trained to undertake industrial work of one kind and another are taken away from their own activities and absorbed in the establishments of the armaments manufacturers. . That must necessarily have a very disturbing influence upon the industrial equilibrium of a country. Moreover, the method by which rearmament programmes are financed may play an important part in the life of a community. The sources from which money for re-armament may be obtained are : First, taxation ; secondly, loans ; and thirdly, partly from taxation and partly from loans. If additional taxation is imposed for defence purposes, the purchasing power of the people is necessarily diminished. A re-armament programme dependent upon taxation must, therefore, not only disorganize industry but also lessen the purchasing power of the community. It also lowers living conditions. On the other hand, the expenditure of loan money on re-armament must necessarily result in inflation and boom conditions. Boom conditions always follow a programme of loan expenditure. In the light of these considerations, it is essential that Ministers should have ample time to think about the best methods of financing our defence programme, and they should also have the advice of competent experts. It appears to me that unless we adopt a system under which expert advisees are available to the Government, we can never hope to develop scientific government in this country. To obtain scientific government we must aim at a completely co-ordinated nation. Each department requires particular officers to fulfil the function of evaluating trends in national, economic, and financial affairs. These men should be able, by reason of their training as economists or sociologists, to observe the trends in a country and to outline the possibilities of the future. I shall never support the delegation of the supreme power of Parliament to outside bodies; but I am a strong believer in the policy of making available to Ministers, experts qualified to advise them on national and international trends. If an officer trained for this purpose were appointed to each department, he could advise the Government as to future probabilities. He could say whether the probabilities were 90 per cent., 80 per cent., or something less that certain things would happen. Ministers would , then know the trend of affairs. Other executive experts could then give the Government advice as to the plans necessary to meet the trends that were observable. I suggest the advisability of appointing a highly-trained official to a permanent position as secretary of the Cabinet, with the duty of co-ordinating the information made available by these trained officers in each department. I think it would be advisable also for each Minister to have appointed a private member as his parliamentary secretary. Heaven alone knows that under existing conditions private members can do very little for the advancement of their country; and I am quite sure that very many of us would willingly give our time to serve in such a capacity as I have suggested, and to help Ministers with the administrative detail which at present snows them up. There is no more essential moment than the present for scientific planning. With one person advising the Government, for example, on naval matters, another advising it on military affairs, and a third making suggestions in regard to the air force, it is unlikely that we shall develop a properly co-ordinated defence service. One man qualified by training and experience should be able to evaluate the various proposals advanced by the representatives of particular branches of the defence forces, and place the various suggestions before the Minister with his carefully considered advice upon them. Under such a system co-ordinated and scientific government would be possible. I wish to revert. to a matter, at this stage, in fairness to myself. It has been suggested, by interjection, that persons should not be reflected upon in this House if they are not here to defend themselves. 1204 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - The honorable member attacked a man who cannot be here to defend himself. 1204 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - I said definitely that I would prefer that he were here. 1204 KZZ UAP 0 0 LAWSON, John Mr JOHN LAWSON - The honorable member attacked his predecessor. 1204 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The Honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. John Lawson) must not interject. 1205 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - When I think it is my duty to do a certain thing, I do it, and I shall not apologize for doing so. 1205 K9A 0 0 GANDER, Joseph Mr Gander -What about having a " go " outside? 1205 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - The honorable member for Reid (Mr. Gander) has been interjecting a good deal this morning; I warn him that he must notcontinue to do so. Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m. 1205 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - We must realize that, unless the armament programme is scientifically managed, the livelihood and the standard of living of every man and woman in this country will be seriously affected. Because of that fact I stress the necessity for a sane and scientific financial policy being formulated by Ministers in consultation with their scientific advisers. I have suggested that the imposition of taxes for the purpose of financing such a programme may result in a reduction of the standard of living, and that loan expenditure may lead to inflation. It may be, and probably will be, that by a proper co-ordination ofboth those methods the programme can be given effect to without serious results. An outstanding feature of the recent conference of Premiers was the desire of the State Premiers to find employment for every person capable of doing work. The defence programme of the Government will probably lead to between 30,000 and 40,000 persons being taken from the ranks of the unemployed and given employment. No one can quarrel with the necessity for concentrating on defence works at this juncture. Subject to that, in my opinion, the energies of unemployed persons capable of doing work should be directed to the creation of public assets. If the activities of men and women be directed to the creation of public works, then an asset is created, which may support the currency provided. Such assets are entirely different from most defence works. There is no reason why developmental works which create public assets could not be financed by the Loan Council. We must realize that we cannot continue our armaments programme for all time. The nations of the world will not do that. At some time or other - I hope that we shall not have to wait too long - disarmament must be brought about, otherwise war must result. Money spent on armaments is money diverted from the real wealth of the community, so that the more money expended in that direction, the poorer and more impoverished the people become. When disarmament does come, another very serious problem will arise, because then the industrial structure will have to be re-organized. A diminution of the expenditure on armaments will lead to a contraction of credits, with a falling off of profits, thereby causing unemployment, lower wages and, finally, depression. That is a . natural consequence unless proper . precautions are taken. The financial statement of the League of Nations for the first quarter of 1938, shows that the total gain in production of the world during the last two years had been neutralized. Unless strong action is taken by the Commonwealth Bank, the probabilities are that a contraction of credit will come in Australia; the trend of events points that way. In passing, I wish to refer to the difficulty of determining what is the financial policy of the Commonwealth Bank. . I have read the Bank's monthly bulletin, but the way in which the figures are published makes it impossible for me to determine with any degree of certainty what policy the bank is applying. One cannot be sure whether the bank is applying a policy of contraction of credits, or of inflation. These appear to be matters of outstanding importance. There is no need for me to deal with the various matters which necessarily are involved in a programme of armament. Once a plan of armament has been decided on, the problem is how the financial structure shall be adapted to deal with it. 1205 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - What form should the structure take? 1205 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr SPENDER - I have already indicated that only when full information based on the advice of experts has been placed before one, can one say what is the correct financial policy to implement. I, personally, would not take the responsibility of saying " This or that policy is the one which ought to be implemented " unless I had before me the advice of experts. No man, unless he himself had been trained to deal with such matters, could safely decide on a policy, particularly in view of the complexities of finance and the varying details which must be considered before a satisfactory policy can be formulated. My view is that, in respect of developmental works whereby permanent assets are created, no difficulty need be experienced. But expenditure on armaments, which always causes dislocation unless carefully managed, since both capital and services are drawn from industry, and the effects on credit which usually accompany disarmament, are matters which I frankly admit demand a long-range financial policy which I would not venture at this stage to propose. It is a matter which must be dealt with by a proper balancing of the means of obtaining revenue, both by imposing taxes and raising loans, with the whole financial structure. I have merely sought to indicate that we cannot expect satisfactory results unless there are in each department men, who, by reason of their training, are able to follow the trend of events and determine what plans should he adopted in the circumstances. Such plans should then 'be placed before Ministers, who should be given sufficient time to study the situation before being called upon to decide what course should be followed. In making the suggestion, I wish to make it plain that I am not advocating the delegation of the authority of Parliament to any outside body. I always have been, and still am, definitely opposed to the delegation of the sovereign powers of the Parliament. I am, however, convinced that the sovereign powers of the Parliament in this respect cannot be scientifically exercised unless there are available the advice and assistance of properly qualified experts. I agree with authority being given to other bodies in regard to certain matters, but not in respect of the financial policy of a nation. That is preeminently a matter for Parliament. I do not believe that, under the present structure of democracy, and having regard to the heavy administrative burden thrown on Ministers, there can be any scientifically balanced policy unless it is implemented in the manner which I have suggested. I am convinced that unless we do that, democracy will find itself unable to compete with those governments which are free from the difficulties associated with a democracy; and if we cannot compete with them, we must ultimately succumb to them. I am a believer in democracy, but I am not satisfied that leadership can mean anything in the end unless we lay correctly the foundations of scientific government. 1206 K4X Riverina 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK .- The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) has moved that the Government has lost the confidence of this House, and he has also asserted that it has lost the confidence of the people of Australia. I oppose his motion, because I recognize that the honorable gentleman and those who sit behind him are suffering from an illusion. The motion is a deliberate attempt to capitalize the panic conditions which have been created in this country by the press as the result of the recent war clouds in Europe. We must beware of panic conditions. Honorable members know well that the press of Australia is frequently on the wrong tack. Only this morning we listened to the Attorney-General making a personal explanation arising from a statement in the press. During the latter twelve months of the last Parliament numbers of election campaigns were planned by the press. In some instances, the date of the election was given. But these elections did not take place. The Parliament lasted for its full term, expired by effluxion of time, and the elections took place in the ordinary way. Honorable members know too, that the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Hunter), who was then in the Cabinet, was, according to the press, replaced a number of times, but the fact remains that he did not leave the Cabinet until he retired to give more time to his own business. We know also that some months ago, when Australia's trade delegation was absent from this country, the press intimated that immediately on its return there would be a drastic re-construction of the Federal Cabinet. Some newspapers went so far as to name the new Treasurer and the new' Minister for Defence, as well as the prospective holders of other portfolios. In that instance also the press was astray. During the last week we have had a repetition of these prophecies. We get reports of party meeting matters that have not been mentioned. They remind me of the man in charge of the lift in a city building who, on Tuesday last, said to me, as I stepped from the lift, "I have just given a chap the name of the winner of the Melbourne Cup ". I replied that, in that event, the lucky person would no doubt share the dividend with him. He proceeded, " Yes, I am sure that I have given to one man the name of the winner, for I have given the names of 22 different horses to 22 different men, and I must be right in one instance". I am particularly pleased that ire their charges both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader exonerated the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) from blame in respect of the defence policy of the Government. 1207 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - We attacked the leadership of the Government; we did not attribute the lack of leadership to the Minister for Defence. 1207 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - I appreciate that both honorable gentlemen exonerated the Minister for Defence from blame. 1207 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - That is going too far. 1207 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - Those of us who read the newspapers have noticed that for a considerable time there has been a campaign of calumny against the Minister for Defence. When negotiations in respect of the overseas air mail were in progress, the same thing happened, notwithstanding that the negotiations had been in progress for almost twelve months when the present Minister took over the portfolio. When he took control and was negotiating week after week he was condemned by the press for what he was doing and for what he had not done. When finally, the airmail agreement was signed and submitted to this House, and the Minister's second-reading speech had been made upon it, honorable members were given a night or the week-end to consider it. Faults were found with it toy some and it was commended by others, hut when the debate was resumed it did not last more than two hours. The bill was passed by the House within that short space of time in spite of all the press condemnation. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The only complaint in connexion with the air-mail agreement arranged 'by the Minister for Defence with the approval of the Cabinet since that time is in connexion with the surcharge. 1207 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - The honorable member is utterly unfair. He knows that the bill was brought down at the death-knock of the session and was passed rapidly only because Qantas Empire Airways Limited refused to proceed unless the agreement was ratified. 1207 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - What I know is what I have said; the debate lasted only two hours, and members know that the gag was not applied. That is evidence that there was little to complain of in connexion with the bill. . The complaints against the agreement have 'been voiced only by city interests because a three-penny surcharge is being imposed. I come now to deal with defence matters. The portfolio of Defence is very different from that of Interior or Postmaster-General. If there is complaint in the press or by the public regarding the operations of the Department of the Interior or that of the Postmaster-General, the respective Ministers are able to go before the people or come to Parliament and make statements as to what has 'been done and what is proposed to be done. They can explain and defend their position. But that cannot apply in connexion with the Defence portfolio, because it is necessary that there should be very much more secrecy in regard to our defence operations. We do not desire that the world should know exactly what is being done in connexion with the defence of our coast, the militia and our boom defences, our preparations for the manufacture of munitions and of antiaircraft guns, and the provision of aeroplanes and the types and the number provided. The information given by the Minister for Defence and the Prime Minister during yesterday's debate will, I am sure, remove a lot of the apprehension that existed in the minds of the people of Australia and will give them a much greater sense of security. The knowledge of what is being done and that the 'Government has not idled on its job must be reassuring. The crux of the complaint of the Opposition seems to be that now the Munich Pact has been signed, we have peace and all is well and that the Government is doing too much. We are thankful we have peace, but there is .no specific time during which peace may last. The policy of the Government is safety first. If it did not adopt that policy the Opposition would have reason to condemn the leadership of the Government for neglecting to take the necessary precautions to provide for the security of this country. I submit that that is the Government's first obligation. The people of Australia look to the Government to do it and they will appreciate the information supplied by its leaders during this debate. Another step which the Government took was to assist a company in connexion with the proposed development of the Newnes shale oil deposits. Was it not leadership to endeavour to exploit those deposits for use in case of emergency in order that we may have within our own country the necessary supplies of fuel for our aeroplanes and for transport in case of interference with the trade routes of the world? We appreciate it, even if it was opposed in the vote by the Opposition. I have known the Minister for Defence perhaps longer than any honorable member in this House, and I am satisfied that it matters not what job he is given to do, he will do it well. For promptness in dealing with members' requests he has no rival in the Cabinet. The information which the honorable gentleman gave us yesterday in connexion with the training of personnel for the militia, the steps being taken for the manufacture of munitions or guns for our coast defences, the provision of mobile anti-aircraft guns, shore defences or wireless, or the provision of oil storage or other requisites for use in case of emergency, indicated to the House that he has a particularly good grip of the department, even though he has only had control of it for twelve months. I pay this tribute to the work and the energy displayed by the Minister for Defence in the administration of his department, and for the way in which he explained the position to us yesterday. We have a respite at present; we are satisfied that, for the time being, we have peace; but surely that is no reason why we should disregard the risks of the future. We can see by the preparations being made in Great Britain and France that those countries recognize that the world is not safe. You cannot press a button and produce a cruiser; you cannot make an aeroplane in a day. We know that aeroplanes ordered from the United States of America will not be supplied for five months. The filling of orders sent abroad for the supply of aircraft during the term of office of the previous Minister for Defence was months behind the delivery time schedule. I repeat that the Government's obligation is to make provision for our protection and to have regard to all the facts of the position. Complaint was made by the Opposition with regard to the employment position. Honorable members opposite said that the Government was not doing anything to provide employment for those out of work. Surely it is ridiculous to suggest that this year we could expend £16,000,000 for our defence requirements, 75 per cent, to 80 per cent, of it in Australia, without, providing increased employment. That is my answer to that charge. The provision of works for defence purposes, the manufacture of munitions, guns, aeroplanes, and the construction of railways and roads, must mean increased work for the people of Australia. 1208 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - What preparations are made to curtail excess profits? 1208 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - I am not dealing with profits. I have not the balance-sheets to do so. Some of these works are not yet in operation; but I am sure we can accept the undertaking of the Minister for Defence, whom I regard as one of the most practical men in this House, that they are being put in hand and that he will see that there is no unreasonable exploitation; also that if such is attempted action will be taken to endeavour to limit profits. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition, in his most entertaining speech yesterday, was so hard up for evidence' to sustain his leader's charge of no leadership that he dipped into the now dim and distant past. when the Bruce-Page Government was in power. The honorable gentleman recalled a reference by some other honorable member of this House to the present Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) as the " tragic Treasurer ". I think that most honorable members of this House know, even if the Deputy Leader of the Opposition does not, that so far as the finances of Australia during the period of seven years of office of the Bruce-Page Government are concerned, it was the State finances, and not the Federal finances, which showed a big slip. The figures show that during that period State debts increased from £520,000,000 to £719,000,000, an increase of £199,000,000, while the Commonwealth public debt increased by only £20,000,000, and against that increase there were asset increases in respect of extended telephonic and telegraphic facilities and buildings, valued at no less than £35,000,000. 1209 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - "What about the drift to the bad in the trade balance amounting to £70,000,000? 1209 K4X 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK - The Minister for Trade and Customs is not in control of the trade balance. Traders import what they require, and those who produce exportable commodities in this country export what is not used here. The limitation of imports is -automatic. If people have not the finance to buy, and cannot obtain credit, imports automatically decrease. It would have been much better if that automatic economic law had been allowed to operate when the Labour Government was in power, instead of an attempt to rectify the position by bringing down a mountainous tariff schedule, the only effect of which was to dislocate trade in Australia. I point out that if honorable members care to compare the position which existed when the huge tariff was imposed by the Labour Government with the position as it' is to-day, when there has been a reduction of 1,400 items in the foreign tariff and 660 items in the British preferential tariff, they will find that the number of employees in factories to-day is 554,000, compared with 327,000 in the former period." We also find that in the Bruce-Page period referred to, the federal ' debt had increased from £365,000,000 to £385,000,000, and since that time, in spite of the £12,000,000 deficit which accumulated in the two years after the defeat of that government, we have had, as the result of the leadership and the sound financial policy of the present Government, seven budgets and a surplus for each of the seven years, and the federal debt has increased by only £5,000,000. Against that increase we have expanded our capital city; we are extending our postal and telegraphic and telephonic services; we have paid for almost the whole of the cost, of our defence services out of income. The Postal Department, during the last two years, has spent on new works alone £4,000,000, and proposes to spend nearly £4,000,000 during the current financial .year. That is an indication of the financial capacity and leadership displayed by the present Government, and is an answer to the complaint by the Opposition that the Government has lost the confidence of this House and of the people of Australia. Give us more of such financial leadership which can extend our assets by so much more than the small increase of our national debt. The Minister for Commerce, who was condemned in a jovial way by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, was responsible for bringing into existence the National Debt Sinking Fund, the Financial Agreement; and the Loan Council, which has not only had its effect on the finances of the Commonwealth, but has also restricted unlimited and dangerous borrowing by the States. This Government is condemned as having no leadership; yet since it has been in office the basic wage has increased from 63s. lid. in 1932 to 77s. in 1938. Not only have pensions been increased; confidence has also been restored. Enterprise has extended its activities. Previously people were afraid to launch out into new industries. The more new industries which come into activity the more employment is provided, and the more competition there is for employees. That is automatic and the credit should be given where credit is due. As far as taxation is concerned we realize that this year it has been necessary to increase it; but even having regard to that increase, taxation to-day is lower than it was in 1932. As far as -State aid is concerned, the States have received for their roads £28,000,000 between 1931 and 1938, and £81,000,00u has been distributed for other purposes, and in addition 'to that the primary industries have been aided to the amount of £20,000,000. A further illustration of leadership is the provision of national insurance, legislation which was condemned very largely by honorable members opposite. Yet we find that Mr. Schroeder, one of the leading voices in the Labour organization, stated definitely that this was one of the greatest pieces of social legislation in the history of Australia. In addition to that, the honorable . member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), who went back to the Australian Commonwealth Line of Steamers, would have us believe that he is concerned about the interests of the farmers, and expressed apprehension with regard to .the long-term mortgage bill which the Government has promised to introduce. It is known to some of us that the Government is preparing this measure, which, will be introduced and, we hope, passed, at an early date. We regard this proposal as still another sign of the sincerity and leadership of the Government in the interests of the people. Much has been said of late about planning for defence and development. I was pleased to hear the Minister for Commerce speak about the results of the conference held recently in Canberra. The right honorable gentleman mentioned the recommendations made at that gathering, one being the class of industries considered to be most essential, the locality of these essential industries, and the order of priority for their establishment. We know that a double line of railway is necessary from Albury to Sydney. At the present time there is a single line over one section. This should be duplicated or, better still, a branch line should be constructed from Junee to Stockinbingal to facilitate through traffic on that section of our railways. In another district there is a single-traffic crossing of the Hawkesbury River, a ferry punt on the main road from Sydney to Newcastle. If, during an emergency, anything happened at that spot, chaos would result, because, even under existing conditions, there is at times serious traffic congestion. The Government realizes this menace in time of national emergency, and proposes the construction of a second loopline, with additional roads and bridges, in order to provide freer access between north and south. Every honorable member will approve of this proposal. The hitch seems to be that the representatives of the Commonwealth and States could not reach an agreement about the committee being asked to suggest the order of priority. This somewhat parochial outlook should be removed, and we are all hopeful that soon there will be effective co-ordination and co-operation between, the Commonwealth and State Governments on these important matters. These were the main points upon which I wished to touch. The Leader of the Opposition has produced no specific evidence of negligence, delay or oversight on the part of the Government. The only criticism which the honorable gentleman and his supporters have offered is that the Government is now doing too much with regard to defence, in view of the outcome of the Munich agreement. I contend that the Government's policy of safety comes from strength is a wise one. It is in the interests of the nation and is one which should have the confidence of all honorable members. Mr. HARRISON (Wentworth) [2.4SJ. - I was intrigued by the terms of the motion moved by the Leader of th, Opposition (Mr. Curtin). I have given some study to its phrasing. The honorable gentleman charged the Government with "lamentable lack of leadership". Those who have an intimate knowledge of recent events will appreciate the absurdity of this charge. As all honorable members are aware, the Leader of the Opposition has come fresh from a La'bour gathering in Sydney - at which he succeeded in convincing a conference to vote against him by some 500 votes to 46 votes - with the "honours of victory " upon him ! We may assume that he possesses all the qualifications of leadership, for did he not successfully weld the two factions of Labour into one disunited whole? Surely a general of his capacity and qualifications should be capable of submitting a motion of want of confidence on the ground of "lamentable lack of leadership " ! Frankly, I am disappointed with the honorable gentleman, because if he has outstanding ability as a leader, one would have expected him to reveal it in a redblooded indictment of the Government. Instead, his attack on the Ministry is a poor, anaemic thing, with no red corpuscles in its structure. It is just a thing of shreds and patches. As an effective criticism of the Government, the honorable gentleman's speech was a lamentable failure. In his opening remarks he declared that Labour had no confidence in this Government. May I ask if all sections of his own party have implicit confidence in his leadership of the Commonwealth Labour movement? Recent activity within that organization indicates that they have not. An influential section of the party has absolutely refused to acknowledge his leadership with regard ' to internal matters. If he. cannot hold his own party together how can he aspire to national leadership? How can one who has not displayed the qualities of leadership in his own party challenge the Government on the same grounds? This statement of the position, I contend, disposes entirely of the attack on the Government made by the honorable gentleman. What does the honorable gentleman offer to this House and to the country? Obviously no one would put forward a motion framed in the terms mentioned unless he were prepared to offer something which the Prime Minister has failed to give. Since the Leader of the Opposition is making a bid for national leadership, we are entitled to assume that he has" something to offer the country. This is not so. The whole record of the Labour party has been such that it has occupied the treasury bench in this" Parliament for only two years in the last 24 years. 1211 KUW 0 0 STACEY, Fred Mr Stacey - That was two years too many. 1211 KNX Wentworth 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - As the honorable member for Adelaide (Mr. Stacey) has just interjected, it was two years too many, as I shall endeavour to prove before I resume my seat. Honorable members do not need to be reminded that Labour's term of office ended owing to a definite lack of leadership within the party. It was brought to a close owing to disagreement within the party and it is reasonable to assume that a similar fate would befall a future Labour government. When we remember the attitude of the various sections of Labour whenever defence measures have been introduced into this House, we get a pretty good idea of what Labour's defence policy means. Much has been said about its isolationist policy, which, we are told, would make Australia secure in time of emergency. That security, I point out, would be gained at the expense of the rest of the Empire. Labour's defence programme is but a pale shadow of what we on this side of the House consider Empire defence should mean. The Leader of the Opposition told us, in support of his contention that compulsory training should not be introduced, that voluntary training would be adequate in a well-managed country. " Adequate ", in relation to defence, is to the honorable gentleman what that blessed word " Mesopotamia " was to the unknown character in fiction. It gives him great support. Unfortunately for his party, he was not very convincing. " Adequate " may be construed to mean anything or nothing. By the last Labour Government it was construed to mean something much less than what we on this side consider offers a fair margin of safety to the Commonwealth. Action taken by the Labour party while occupying the treasury bench showed ignorance of the fundamentals of a true defence policy. The Labour Administration made such serious inroads into the defence programme that it prevented the building up of reserves, either in industry, armaments, or manpower. To be effective, a defence plan cannot be a thing of immediate growth. The expenditure of large sums of money on the purchase of aircraft, battleships, armaments, and on the training of men is necessary. Reserves upon which a defence plan can be built must be created. The action of the Scullin Government in drastically cutting down the defence vote prevented the establishing of the reserves. We have been told lately that a war in Europe would render Australia more vulnerable to attack. That statement came as a surprise to some honorable members because it presupposes that if the United Kingdom were not involved in a European conflict, Australia's safety would be assured because the British Government would be able to come to our aid. That is the only interpretation that can be put upon the statement. 1212 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - If that is the only interpretation which occurs to the honorable gentleman, his knowledge must be extremely limited. 1212 KNX UAP; LP from 1944 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The honorable gentleman speaks in such a manner as to make it difficult for any one to understand just what he means. In this debate, he suggested that the Government was spending more on defence than it should. 1212 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - I did not say that. I said it was contemplating to spend more than this Parliament had been asked to vote. 1212 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The honorable gentleman drew attention to the fact that conditions overseas to-day were much easier, and he claimed that the Government proposed at this juncture to spend on defence more money than was necessary according to the trend of events. 1212 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - No. I said that it was spending more than was provided for in the Estimates submitted to Parliament. 1212 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The honorable gentleman cannot explain his remarks in any other way. He said that members of this House and the public in general were dissatisfied with the Government's leadership because of these things, and that the Ministry was being pilloried because of its inertia. If leadership means an ability to gauge public opinion, the charge made by the Leader of the Opposition fails, because the Prime Minister has, by his legislative proposals and his knowledge of public opinion, made a definite appeal to the nation. Indeed, the opinion is strongly held that the Government should go further in its defence proposals. When the Leader of the Opposition failed to present a case that might have provided food for thought, I naturally looked to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde), thinking that he would be able to give us something tangible. But, as happens always, that honorable gentleman dealt with tariff matters as if they had a connexion with a motion of want of confidence. It was sheer temerity for the honorable member to introduce such a subject in support of such a motion. 1212 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - The honorable member could not have been here, because I did not mention the tariff. [Quorum formed.] 1212 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The honorable member, with a banging of drums, told us what a wonderful job the Labour party had done with its tariff policy. 1212 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - I did not mention the tariff yesterday. 1212 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - Even if I were not in the chamber, I could anticipate what the honorable member would say, because we have listened to him so often. I was interested in the observations of the other half of the Labour party, which treated its federal leader so cavalierly on his visit to Sydney. Opinions were expressed, evidently with authority, by the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) and the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) - who so recently has moved across to the corner benches. These two honorable members have been reared under the protection of the British flag. They owe to it all that they possess, and are dependent on it for their future well-being, yet in a national chamber they deny the Mother Country and criticize its policies. They would deny their own mother. If that be the best which this section of the Labour party can provide in regard to defence, it is definitely lacking in leadership. The majority of honorable members will agree that my contention is logical and reasonable when I assert that no defence policy is capable of achieving immediate results, and that there must be long-range planning. When the foundation has been, undermined, the task takes longer. If the plan be sound, if the fundamentals be correct, if the premises be solid, the ultimate result must be good. Those who criticize failure to achieve immediate results lack appreciation of what can be done by long-range planning. This Government has sought the advice of the best experts in the British Empire who, in matters of defence, may be regarded as entitled to precedence throughout the world. Its defence plan is based on the recommendations of those experts. There is no need to remind honorable members that it takes many years to produce the necessary armaments and gather the necessary supplies. There must be industrial planning, with the building of shadow factories, and the staffing of those factories. The required man-power and reserves must be raised. These matters cannot he finalized in a moment. The Labour party, and the critics of the Government outside of this Parliament, do not realize that immediate results cannot bc achieved by any administration. I admit that the recent crisis disclosed many weaknesses in our defence system. * It was certain that it "would, because we have not been obliged to go closely into the matter of national defence since the years 1914-19. The conditions have changed radically in the meantime. The centre of unrest was then in Europe, and there was no possibility of a challenge being issued to Australia. Our immediate neighbours were our allies, but to-day they are not. Therefore, the whole of our defence policy has to be altered. I take it that the weaknesses will be rectified. I believe that the Government completely understands what is required, and that in a short while it will develop a defence plan which will be quite satisfactory to Australia. I feel very strongly in regard to the matter of compulsory military training, but I am quite prepared, nevertheless, to support the Prime Minister if he considers that he is committed to a policy of voluntary training. In my opinion, we can achieve an efficiency of 100 per cent, only by means of compulsory military training. The voluntary system has had quite sufficient trial in Australia, and as it has not produced what was needed it should be discarded for a system of greater worth which will afford the requisite security. In advocating compulsory military training, I am supporting what may be regarded as the basis of communal life. Every young man nf this nation should be prepared to pull his full weight in the defence of those things which go to make up communal life; it should not be left to the public-spirited only to volunteer their services. The communal basis is fundamental in every community, and every man should be compelled to pull his full weight. 1213 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin - At making roads and bridges, and producing the other indis.pensables of life? Does the honorable member suggest that there should be an organized communal service to meet the requirements of the nation? 1213 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - In all essential services there must ultimately be that control which I have suggested. The honorable gentleman knows that we shall approach that position; it is part and parcel of beliefs which he has expressed from time to time. He is prepared to nationalize everything for the sake of the', country itself, yet he is not prepared to nationalize service. He is neither reasonable nor logical. He forgets that social services are of no value unless they can be protected. Without national regimentation for the protection of those services which he seeks to nationalize, they would be worthless. The honorable gentleman has not reached the idealistic stage; he is a practical man with practical knowledge. All else is purely visionary, and is used merely for political expediency. It has been proved, although in the early days the proof was npt apparent, that in all matters connected with national service and security man-power, ultimately, is paramount. Tt is necessary for us to have complete and adequate reserves of men to ensure the protection of Australia in any eventuality. I am not suggesting for a moment that universal service should be introduced with a view to participation in overseas defensive wars; that, I believe, should be left entirely to the will of the young men concerned ; it has no direct bearing op their own country, but it has an indirect bearing, the value of which may be computed individually, and, therefore, the individual should determine whether or not he shall volunteer for overseas service. That is a principle which I am prepared to support and advocate. But T say that for service within Australia for the security of the nation, there should be no. hesitation whatever in regimenting the younger men." I feel that, any plan that may be formulated by the Government will not be successful or efficient unless the States are prepared to collaborate with the Commonwealth and the Commonwealth with the States. While we have several governments operating with individual sovereign rights, until there is recognition oi responsibility for their development, and for the promotion of schemes which will make better and easier the social life of the community, there will be no efficiency in a national plan of defence. The first essential in any measure of defence is complete collaboration and co-operation between the States and the Commonwealth, but not along the lines followed by the conference held recently, which was used merely as a means for the expression of personal views. The different governments should appoint men of action who will be prepared to make recommendations out of which a complete plan may be evolved. May I conclude by referring to some of the remarks of the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender), whose speech I found very interesting. Most of the views voiced by the honorable member were excellent as ideals, but I suggest that they are far outside the realm of practical politics, with which we are concerned at the moment. The honorable gentleman expressed the opinion that a staff should be appointed to deal with trends, the value of which should bc assessed and placed before the Minister concerned, who would take the matter to Cabinet, which would eventually determine what should be done. Surely, he is aware that machinery of this nature is already in existence, and that any Minister can delegate to a specialist in his department the task of watching these trends, and acquainting him with their value? Those who can best compute the value of these trends are the members of the Cabinet. Therefore, I suggest that, as we have in our own government departments, and in the Treasury, the means of gathering information regarding financial and commercial trends, both here and overseas, there is no need to set up a special organization for this purpose. We have our overseas trade commissioners to advise us regarding trade and financial affairs in other countries. The trouble is that though this information, or the means to acquire it, is already available, Cabinet Ministers are not likely to take advantage of it unless they see that there is some direct benefit to be gained. Perhaps I should not indulge in criticism, but I have a vivid recollection that certain embargoes were imposed at one time, not on the recommendation of our overseas trade commissioners, but in spite of their advice, and of the advice of officers within the departments themselves. All of the things suggested by the honorable member are inherent in good administration. A good administrator, if he does not find them to his hand, will create them. The honorable member said that if we did not apply more scientific methods to government, our democratic system must go under, to be succeeded, perhaps, by a totalitarian system of government. I remind him, however, that the very attributes which he suggests as essential to the success of a democracy are those which are conspicuously absent from the government of the totalitarian states. The existing Commonwealth departments can obtain all the information necessary, and it is the function of Cabinet to collate and co-ordinate this information. There is no need to go on creating one department after another, and for ever increasing the number of public servants. Even at the present time honorable members sometimes get lost amongst the mass of information which is available to them in the departments. Reports on various' matters are filed away and never looked at. If the administrator is not capable, the creation of new departments for collecting information will not be of any use to him; if he is capable there will be no need for the new departments in any case. I have much pleasure in supporting the Government. I do not intend to vote for this rather fantastic motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition. I believe, as does the honorable member for Warringah, that the Leader of the Opposition himself has no faith in his own motion. 1214 KHL Melbourne Ports 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY . - I am not a bit disappointed at the concluding statement of the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison). I do not think that any one ever expected that he would support the motion. In my opinion, the fundamental issues whch led to the moving of this motion of want of confidence, have, not been seriously touched upon by honorable members who have spoken from the other side. It is quite certain that all of the Ministers, at any rate,, who have spoken, have studiously attempted to sidetrack the debate, so as -to keep, away from the real problems, at issue, and confine it to. the two. questions, of whether too. little or too much money has been spent on defence, and whether there has, indeed, been lack of leadership in the Government. Those were not the real grounds of attack, by the Opposition. They were merely incidental, except that, of course, one cannot describe defence preparations as being merely incidental. As for the question of leadership, what has that got to do with the Opposition? We do not care who leads the Government, nor do we care how many times Ministers are switched from one portfolio to- another, or how often some are dropped and others appointed. The whole point, so far as we are concerned, is whether the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) and his colleagues are giving the country good government; whether they are courageously and efficiently tackling the problems they have to face, and giving effect to their election promises. I am not a bit concerned, nor is it my business, to worry about who the Minister for Defence may be this month or the month after. I am concerned with legislation and administration, and whether the Minister, whoever he may :be, is carrying out the policy of the Government. We are concerned with policies, not with individuals. As a matter of fact, it is not the Opposition which has made so much of this matter of absence of leadership. It is a strange coincidence that the press of Australia, almost without exception, has ! been attacking the Government because of its lack of leadership, and this is the same press that created the Government, and that always supported it until power became so evenly divided 'between the protectionist party and the freetrade party within its ranks. That, perhaps, is the explanation for the change. Whatever She reason, the press that formerly supported this Government, and the one 'before it, is now unanimously telling the people of Australia that the Government is displaying; no leadership ; that, there is. uo cohesion, no, unity. and no. planned policy, and that these things, are not possible because of bad leadership,, Of course, it is not surprising that the attack should be made.. It has been obvious to every honorable member of this House that, during the last year at least, the Government has utterly failed to bring before Parliament any planned or consistent policy. Every time Parliament meets - and, goodness knows it does not meet very frequently - the notice-paper is completely changed, and a new list of legislation is placed on the stocks, though the previous fist has not been completed. The Cabinet has been so rent with internal troubles that it has lost all initiative. 'Strangely enough, after the launching of this, motion of want of confidence, the press of Australia has taken up the attack. It has not done so for the purpose of supporting the Opposition, of course, but the attack has synchronized with the moving of this motion. 1215 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron -Perhaps the Opposition knew what was. coming. 1215 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY -We did not, nor are we particularly concerned with the newspapers' attack on the Government. For my part, I have no brief for one Minister as against another. I am in agreement with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr- Curtin) when he said we have no special reason for condemning the Minister for Defence (M*. Thorby), (but we are certainly opposed to the policy, or lack of policy, of the Government. I do not charge the Government with not expending enough money on defence; I make it clear at the outset that I think it is expending to " much. When a government begins to expend on defence money which should be used for the internal development of the country, then, in my opinion, it is doing wrong. There is no need to sacri-floe the living standards of the people for the sake of this panicky defence scheme. The Government is expending much too rapidly on defence. It is making plans for more than the adequate defence of Australia. I make no excuse for saying that. When the Government suggests that more millions should be expended on defence, and that some of those millions should be provided out of the funds which -ordinarily the States would devote to their economic development, then it is time to call a halt, and that is where we are now, and where we should stop. I wish to follow up the arguments of the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender), the only one on the Government side who has touched upon the internal economic problems of Australia. It is clear to observant persons that the economic barometer all over the world is falling. In spite of unprecedented expenditure on armaments, unemployment everywhere is on the increase,- and the aggregate wage share is getting less and less in Australia, as well as in other countries. Students of world affairs are predicting that this can end only in disaster. Honorable members cannot claim to be ignorant of these matters. The bulletins issued periodically from Geneva are available to them, and in these publications the situation is clearly set forth. I make no claim regarding them because they issue from Geneva, but it so happens that the League of Nations provides the only international machinery for the teaching of the world in regard to these matters. The experts who write in these bulletins point out that, while the volume of money expended on armaments has increased by an undreamed of amount, employment is all the time becoming less and less. Expenditure on armaments cannot solve the unemployment problem, either in Australia or abroad. Figures issued by our own Department of Statistics show that we are already entering upon another period of depression. Why was the recent Premiers Conference in Canberra a debacle? The circumstances were such that this conference should have been historic, but it ended in failure, and it failed because the Commonwealth Government placed certain unacceptable financial proposals before the Premiers, who knew as much, or more, about such matters as did the Commonwealth Treasurer (Mr. Casey). The policy he put forward was one of extraction, repression and deflation. The money that he proposed to allow to the States to expend on normal peace-time projects for the economic development of this country was to be cut to the bone in favour of defence works. He offered as an excuse that the people who would have been employed on the normal developmental works would be absorbed into the manufacture of arms and munitions and into work on other defence projects. What was put before the Premiers was a declaration that peace-time operations could not be allowed to encroach upon the needs of defence. But the Premiers would not bow down. They refused the command and in doing so were watching the interests of the people of Australia. They would not allow themselves to be panicstricken into accepting the proposition that the whole of the energies of the Australian governments should be bent towards the defence, and away from the economic development, of this country. The Commonwealth Treasurer wanted a return to the old order of things and he , resented any suggestions from the State Premiers, who are at least as qualified as he is to give opinions on matters of public finance. If the Commonwealth Government wishes to go ahead with its defence programme it cannot adhere to iron-bound and obsolete methods of finance. I am supported in this by the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Stevens, who when he was treasury officer of that State, was regarded as being one of the best treasury officers that it had ever had. He understands figures ; he has been thoroughly educated in them; they are his profession, and, when he says that we cannot carry on with yesterday's methods in order to meet to-day's conditions, heed should be taken. I am not apt to agree with the Premier of New South Wales, because his politics and mine differ widely, but in the respect which I have just mentioned he has my full support. The only quarrel I have with him in this matter is that he is '20 years behind the time. The honorable gentleman was justified in risking the collapse of the conference in advancing his facts, because what he said is almost a fundamental of present-day economics. It is tedious to have to repeat what has been said so often about the last war and its aftermath, but the Australian people must be warned that we are steadily drifting back to the predicament which was brought about by that war. No matter how we may try, we cannot forget the vast number of men who were killed and wounded in that conflict, the thousands who are still in hospitals and sanatoriums, and the fact that, although 20 years have elapsed since its cessation, the cost of repatriation, far from falling, as one would expect after such a long period of time, is still increasing. We must not forget these things ; but for the purposes of this debate I shall confine myself to the financial aspect. We are told that the last war cost us in money - apart from the thousands of young Australians killed - £850,000,000. We have already paid £350,000,000 ' and we are still paying £19,000,000 per annum almost entirely in interest. As the result of the policy of this Government we are drifting into a set of circumstances which will, even though we do not actually engage in war, and may never be at war, produce a financial aftermath similar to that of the last war. That being so, the Opposition is justified in attacking the Government and charging it with having lost the confidence of the people of Australia. By the expenditure of millions of pounds hurriedly on defence equipment, this Government will pile up an interest burden that will not be paid off when the ships, guns and every other piece of ordnance will have been scrapped as obsolete and useless, and long before we have ceased paying the £19,000,000 a year in interest and sinking fund towards the cost of the last war. I object to giving the Defence Department a blank cheque to be filled in as its experts desire. The statements made by the Treasurer in reply to the policy enunciated by Mr. Stevens were the most foolish and ridiculous that have ever been made by a responsible Minister. All of the evidence is against the Commonwealth Treasurer and in favour of the Premier of New South Wales. In reply to the assertion by Mr. Stevens, to which no one could really object, that the financial policy of the Commonwealth must be altered to meet the conditions which operate to-day, the Treasurer merely repeated the stereotyped assertion that the Commonwealth Government -must not interfere with the Commonwealth Bank Board, that the bank board's policy is distinct from the operations of the Commonwealth Government, and that political influences must never be brought to bear on the Commonwealth Bank Board, it being sacrosanct. When honorable members in this House ask that credits be made available in order to solve the unemployment problem, the Treasurer says that it cannot be done for the reason that the Commonwealth Bank Board is beyond interference. None the less, the Treasurer declares that there is no limit tq the amount of money which the Commonwealth Government may expend on the Defence Department; the defence authorities are to be given a blank cheque to be filled in as they desire. But the money to be spent upon our peace time works is to be cut down, and the people of Australia will never consent to that. My charge against this Government is that it has not honoured the promises that it made at the last election, and has not been moral in the way in which it has failed to implement the international conventions which its representatives have signed. For years past our delegates have gone from this Parliament charged with the responsibility to vote in favour of certain conventions and they have done so. Whilst other governments in the world have gradually but surely given effect to the conventions to which Australia is a party, this Government has consistently refrained from following their lead. As the result our delegates have been loath to attend the international conferences because of the ridicule which attaches to their signing of conventions which the Government of Australia will never carry out. In proof of the correctness of what I say I need cite only the international convention in respect of hours of labour. The countries represented at the conference which drafted that convention, the design of which was to meet the unemployment problem, which is the greatest problem confronting the world to-day, have mostly given effect to it, but not Australia. The right honorable member for North Sydney( Mr. Hughes), himself a member of the Commonwealth Ministry, admits that the convention should be given effect. He has been chastised in Cabinet because lie has given voice to that opinion. The Premier of New South Wales also is aware that the solution of the unemployment problem is the greatest need in the world to-day, and, in order to approach its solution in Australia, he has advocated a sound policy, which the Commonwealth Treasurer has treated with scorn. . At the last two elections the Prime Minister in his policy speeches promised that money would be made available to the State governments and municipalities for the construction of homes for workers. That promise has never been honoured. The honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) returned from a trip abroad to talk in this Parliament about what the Government of the United Kingdom was doing to provide aid to municipal authorities in Great Britain to carry out a long-range housing scheme, the cost of which will be £700,000,000. That scheme has been in operation for three years and millions of new homes have been built. Tens of thousands of houses are being erected every six months as the result of the subsidies given by the British Government to the municipalities. The new homes in some municipalities are more than the number of homes that were within them before the scheme was put into operation. I know of one municipality in England where there are as many new homes as there were old, all as the result of the British Government's housing scheme. This Government has not only neglected to carry out its promise to assist the States in the development of a housing plan, but also has failed to do anything on its own account. There are 30,000 basic wage-earners in the Postal Department for whom the Commonwealth Government could build homes, but it will do nothing. A further promise was that the Commonwealth Government would take definite action to improve the lot of the 60,000 youths in Australia who have never worked. 1218 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The honorable member exaggerates. The number was 25,000 and the Commonwealth Government provided hundreds of thousands of pounds for them. 1218 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY -No. Thi.5 Government has done nothing. The honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) has on many occasions spoken about its neglect to tackle the problem of the unemployed youth, but has never received any satisfaction. The Government is deserving of censure for the way in which it appoints costly commissions whose reports are never discussed in this Parliament, which, if it had the opportunity, could decide either to take action or not to take action. One commission that was appointed was the commission which inquired into the high costs of petrol. The commission was appointed after a welter of agitation on the part of the people, took evidence and presented two reports, a majority report and a minority report, both of which caused controversy amongst the people. This Parliament has never had an opportunity to discuss those reports because they were pigeonholed. The same strictures can be made concerning the pigeon-holing of the report by the monetary and banking commission. We, on this side, do not agree with all of the finding of that commission, but we are satisfied that many features of the report, if given effect to, would considerably help Australia. Not one single recommendation in the report that is of any value to the people of Australia has been given effect to by the Government. Not only did the Government propose to do something to enable people to provide homes for themselves, but a proposal was also under consideration for the making of advances to persons in need. Before that could be given effect to, however, a conference took place between the Treasurer and the representatives of the associated banks. Nothing came out of it that was of any value. The private banks evidently had no intention to make advances to governments or municipalities to assist working people to purchase homes. The suggestion that small advances should be made to help persons in temporary financial difficulty was, apparently, considered at the conference which the Treasurer held with the representatives of the banks, for one private bank is now experimenting in this matter. Tt has agreed to make loans of £50 to borrowers who are willing to make re- payments at £1 a week, the idea being that the whole transaction shall be completed within a calendar year. The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock) told us this afternoon that the Government ' has decided to proceed with its proposal to establish a mortgage branch of the Commonwealth Bank. This will mean, of course, that the Commonwealth Bank will be expected to assume responsibility for the liabilities, overdrafts and mortgage obligations of certain people. The Government has agreed to take these bad debts from the shoulders of the private bankers and pass them on to the people. In other words, the associated banks will free themselves of this bad business, but will retain all the business that is profitable. There is clear evidence in Australia, as well as in other countries, that the world is heading towards another depression. The snowball is beginning to roll. Even in Australia, the number of persons in employment is less this year than it was last year, less now than it was ten years ago, and less in September than it was in March. In Victoria, 10,000 more persons were unemployed in September than in March. The amount of wages paid this year was less than the amount paid seven years ago. The amount of wages paid per capita has dropped from £208 seven years ago to £179 last year. 1219 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The honorable member must bo aware that the percentage of unemployment in Australia has been reduced from 30 per cent, to 7 per cent. 1219 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - I know all about those figures. The depression through which the country passed* several years ago began in Europe. The ripples of it took a long time to reach the coast of Australia, but they eventually reached itThe report from the International Labour Office, to which I have just referred, shows that already in Great Britain, in spite of an improvement of the quantity and value of the output of production, and in spite of the added impetus given to industry in consequence of the augmented output of war materials, munitions and ships, the volume of employment is falling. Fewer people were employed in Great Britain and in the United States of America last year than in the previous year. The percentage of efficiency has gone up, but the workers' share of the wages fund has gone down. The report indicates that it is useless to expect expenditure on armaments to result in a balanced budget. It may be true that every technical man engaged in the metal trades throughout the world is in employment to-day; but that is the only class of employee who can find work. People engaged in other industries will benefit very little by the expenditure on armaments. Just recently the manager of the aircraft factory in Melbourne told me that he could give employment to 500 more semi-skilled and unskilled men if he could get 30 or 40 more engineers. That is the situation all over the world. Unemployment is increasing day by day. In England during the last seven years, the efficiency of man-power has increased by 14 per cent., and in the United States of America the efficiency of the workers has increased by 24 per cent. The report reveals that in spite of the extra money being expended on arms and munitions in Great Britain, the people out of work are not being absorbed. We need ordinary peace-time public works to give effective employment to our people. We must proceed with a normal developmental programme. The Commonwealth Government requested the Premiers Conference a few days ago to concentrate its attention on a programme of defence works. That was why the conference was abortive. We cannot have it both ways in this respect any more than in other respects. If the amount of money paid in wages and salaries falls and the number of people in employment decreases, the volume and value of output become subordinate considerations. The report shows that the pole representing production is getting higher and the pole representing consumption is falling lower. The gap between them is growing wider. That kind of thing inevitably leads to depression. 1219 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER -The honorable member has exhausted his time. Motion (by Mr. Mahoney) put - That the honorable member have leave to continue his speech. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.) 28 37 Majority...... 9 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 1220 KLC Denison 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY . - I support the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin). I make no apology for the criticism which I shall level against the Government for the manner in which it has governed this country. One has only to read the newspapers during the last two or three days to discover the disruption that exists amongst the members of the Ministry and the utter dissatisfaction which is apparent amongst the supporters of the Government. One can only come to the conclusion that the people' of Australia have lost confidence in the Government, and that it has fallen down badly on its job. I -have always paid particular attention to the defence policy of the Government and the manner in which it has. attempted to put it into execution. Shortly after the return of Ministers from abroad, the Commonwealth Government convened a conference of State Premiers in order to formulate a defence policy and to seek the co-operation of the States in its implementation. The States agreed to forgo their loan moneys if the Commonwealth Government carried out defence works in lieu of the public works which normally would have been carried out by the State governments. Subsequently, however, the States found that they had been " sold a pup " ; the Commonwealth Government let them down. In my opinion the Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby) was largely responsible for that. In order to cajole the States into acceptance of the Commonwealth's plan he told the State Premiers that if they agreed to it the defence works which would be put into operation would help to relieve unemployment. I recognize, of course, that money expended in the northern part of Australia has a beneficial effect on Australia as a whole, including the southern part of Australia; but at the same time I remind the Minister for Defence that the extreme southern parts of Australia are just as much in need of the provision of public works for the relief of unemployment as the northern parts. Eighteen months ago the then Minister for Defence, Sir Archdale Parkhill, placed £37,000 on the Estimates for fortification of the River Derwent. The need for such fortification was recognized by the military advisers of the Government as important in any scheme for the defence of the Commonwealth. No attempt has been made to carry out that work; and for that I hold the Minister for Defence blameworthy. I endeavoured to ascertain the reason why the work had not been proceeded with, and I was informed by an official of the Defence Department that it was vetoed by some one over the Minister for Defence. 1220 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby -Who is " over " the Minister for Defence? 1220 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - From all that we have heard it appears that some one will shortly be over the Minister for Defence. I understand, however, that the Minister's instructions were vetoed. 1220 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That is not so. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - Then the Minister has fallen down on his job. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - To what work 'does the honorable member refer? 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - The Minister knows very well that eighteen months ago an amount of £37,000 was placed on the Estimates to carry out necessary defence works in Tasmania. If he does not know what those works are, I shall tell him. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - What are they? 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - Provision was made in the Estimates of £37,000 for the fortification of Bruny Island which commands the entrance to the River Derwent. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That .work is included in the defence programme. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - But it has not been put in hand. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - We must undertake works in their order of importance. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - I see that the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence (Mr. Street) is prompting the Minister. I warn him that he might lead him astray. The provision of this money was sanctioned by the Parliament, and on the advice of thye Government's defence advisers the work was to be put in hand. In my opinion, the Minister for Defence is not big enough to carry out the job which he has undertaken. I do not wish him to regard this as a personal attack upon him, but rather as fair criticism of his attempt to administer one of the most important portfolios in the Ministry. If he has not sufficient staff, it is his job to see that his staff is augmented. Is it not correct that the Minister promised the Premier of Tasmania that if' the States agreed to the Commonwealth's proposal, defence works would take the place of works normally financed by the States and absorb the unemployed? 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That is not so. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - The Premier of Tasmania has made a statement to that effect, and I would rather accept his statement as true than that' of . the Minister. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - The States agreed to co-operate; that is all. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - I have been informed by departmental officials that, owing to shortage of quantity surveyors, the defence programme cannot be put into operation fully. 1221 JVJ 0 0 MULCAHY, Daniel Mr Mulcahy - There are any number of quantity surveyors unemployed. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - How long ago was that? 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - Within the last twelve months. I made representations to the Minister of the Interior (Mr. McEwen) in regard to this statement, but his department is still understaffed. What is the use of going to the expense of bringing the Defence Department to Canberra if fortifications required for the defence of this country cannot be proceeded with? That, in my opinion, is a hocus-pocus policy. These are the actual facts, and because of them I say that the Minister is not carrying out his job. Because pressure has been brought to bear by the more prosperous States, and because he is sympathetic to Nationalist State governments and antipathetic to Labour governments, the more prosperous States are enjoying more than their fair share of the defence works. 1221 KVN 0 0 STREET, Geoffrey Mr Street - Does not the honorable member think that there should be some degree of priority? 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - Yes, and I say that the fortifications on Bruny Island should have been given priority over other defence works, because the money to put them in hand was voted no less than eighteen months ago. If the Commonwealth Government cannot do its job, it should ask the State governments to 'undertake it. That is my conception of co-operation. If the Government were prepared to seek the co-operation of the States in that way, it would have my wholehearted support. The Government has. made no provision of necessary equipment for the training of additional volunteers in the citizen forces in Tasmania. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That is not so. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - High military officials have informed me that it is so. 1221 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - Then their statement is absolutely incorrect. 1221 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - I could take the Minister to a high military authority who advised me to this effect, and I would not be afraid that the honorable gentleman would give him the sack. I asked this authority if the full complement of men could be enlisted in Tasmania, and he replied in the negative. 1222 KWC 0 0 THORBY, Harold Mr Thorby - That is absolutely incorrect. 1222 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - I received the information from an official upon whom I can rely. The Commonwealth Government later convened another conference of State Premiers to discuss the defence programme. What happened? It was a washout, because the Commonwealth wanted the States to do work which it should have done. Defence preparations are the task of the Commonwealth Government, and it is its duty to see that all the necessary defence works are carried out. It has a majority in both Houses of this Parliament, and there is no excuse for its failure to give effect to its stated policy. Instead of fighting over portfolios, Ministers should get on with their job; but it seems that honorable members opposite are animated solely by a desire to share in Ministerial honours. I have watched the international situation very closely. When the Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies), the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) and the Minister for Commerce (Sir Earle Page) returned from their trip overseas they came back with nothing but big ideas. When the Attorney-General was in Germany, he apparently wanted to go Nazi. Upon his return to Australia, he said that Germany's policy for the suppression of democracy and the strangling of Europe was the right one. He attacked the Minister for Defence, and said that that gentleman was not capable of carrying on his job, his idea being to discredit him so that he might achieve the ambition of securing that portfolio. The honorable member foi Henty (Sir Henry Gullett) also attacked the honorable gentleman. I know that United Australia party Ministers are prepared to prop him up in return for the support of the Country party. I have said previously .that one of the worst things ever done was the bartering of the portfolio of Defence for the support of the Country party. A defence policy cannot be carried out in that way. The principles of Fascism have been introduced into this House, and have the support of ministerial members. The honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) this afternoon advocated the industrial conscription of the manhood of this country. 1222 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - Did not the honorable member's leader in Tasmania do that? 1222 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - My leader is the honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Curtin). He has- voiced the policy of the Labour party, and I support it. The Australian Imperial Force which took part in the war to end war and save democracy from 1914 to 1918 was raised purely by voluntary enlistment, proving conclusively that all the man power necessary can be obtained if the right method is adopted. The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) abused honorable members on this side in a most shocking manner. I am surprised that they allowed him to " get away with it." He was supported by ex-Ministers, who are antagonistic to us because we believe in voluntary enlistment for the defence of Australia. The Leader of the Opposition has definitely stated that the Labour party would take adequate measures to defend this country. During the course of the last war, the Australian soldiers voted against conscription for overseas service, and I intend to fight to the utmost of my power to have the present system retained. I heard the Minister for De fence say that the scaling down policy of the Scullin Government was an absolute disgrace. We must .ascertain the reason for the action which that Government took. From 1914 to 1918, Australia lost thousands of men and millions of pounds. An ex-Minister has said that that war was a disgrace to civilization. That is poor compensation for the sons of Australia who sacrificed their lives, and for. the mothers who bore them. I want more tangible compensation for the loss sustained. While the Scullin Government was in office, there was a scaling down of expenditure on defence throughout the world, ' but one European power was allowed by the others to raise an immense army. 1222 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser - Does the honorable member suggest that we should have gone to war to prevent iti 1222 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - No ; I do not believe in international conflict. 1222 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser - How, then, could it have been prevented? 1222 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - By minding our own business. British military experts closely scrutinized the preparations that Germany was making, and carefully noted the large army it was raising. To-day, every country is armed to the teeth, notwithstanding the mis-statement that the last war was a war to end war. Some of the most eminent statesmen in the world have said that the conditions of Europe will determine the ideas of Europe. I say that the conditions of Australia will determine the ideas of the Australian people. I have never heard any member of the Labour party say that he would not be prepared to defend Australia should the occasion to do so arise. If there were any immediate danger, the services of every capable man between the ages of 18 and 60 years could be commandeered. 1223 KVN 0 0 STREET, Geoffrey Mr Street - The honorable member will admit that they must be trained. 1223 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - Has the Government made any effort to train them? If it were to establish an army of defence, the members of which would be paid the wages they would receive in industry, it would secure all the volunteers it required ; but no one will volunteer to work for nothing. Every successful country to-day has such an army. The aim of the Government is to relieve the wealthy of the obligation to pay for the defence of this country, and to have it defended by the sons of poor people. I realize that a plan must be laid down. I have never shirked my obligation to do everything possible for the adequate defence of this country, but I shall not consent to its mankind being sent to Europe or Asia to be slaughtered for the benefit of foreign interests. Military men camouflage and deceive with the object of raising an army which they may one day lead on to a foreign battlefield. 1223 KVN 0 0 STREET, Geoffrey Mr Street - I hope that that is not advice which has been given to the honorable member by his " military adviser ". 1223 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - If the Government were to carry out the defence work in Tasmania to which I referred earlier, I should not criticize it. 1223 KVN 0 0 STREET, Geoffrey Mr Street - I have told the honorable member that it will be carried out. 1223 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - My military advisers tell me that there is great weakness in the defence of this country, and that it lies in the Minister for Defence himself. Loving this country and its people, I desire that there shall be no weak link. If the Minister for Defence were a true patriot, he would stand aside and say that, as he was the weak link in the defence system and was not capable of carrying out the job, it should be undertaken by another. I would always act in that way in the interests of my country. To-day I heard the honorable member for "Warringah (Mr. Spender) attack a man who is not now a member of this Parliament. That was a cowardly act; no man should be attacked behind his back. I say in fairness to the ex-Minister for Defence, Sir Archdale Parkhill, that his word was his bond; if be said he would do anything, -he did it. He was a very capable man. I should like the Minister for Defence to explain why he has refused to accede to the request of the Premier of Tasmania, the Chamber of Commerce, and other representative persons and bodies, to make an aeroplane available so that the young men of Tasmania may be trained in aviation and thus be fitted to take their place in the defence of Australia. Quite recently, the Premier of Tasmania communicated with the Prime Minister on this matter. The Minister has mentioned the guns that have been placed along the coast of Australia. The only place he forgot to mention is the little island of Tasmania. Then there is the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt), another military genius, who was courageous enough to train as a soldier, but who failed to remain in the forces. He should be today playing a leading part in the Citizen Forces, demonstrating to the young men that a member of Parliament is prepared to take his place side by side with them in the defence of the country. I give credit to the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin). He is still a general, and walks with the rank and file in processions. He is not a " sooler " like the honorable member for Fawkner, who is prepared to conscript the boys of Australia, but who is not game enough to be in the forces himself. The Attorney-General was a young man capable of going to the last war. He was in favour of conscription then, and he believes "in it to-day, but the only thing he did foi- the defence of his country during the war was to duck an anticonscriptionist in the pond in the grounds of the Melbourne University. The Minister for Defence was eligible to go to the last war. He should have shown his patriotism at that time, and then he could have said, " I fought for my country, and I believe that every man in Australia should be prepared to do the same ". Those whom I have mentioned, however, are not logical. They belong to "the " Be " brigade, like myself. They will be here when the soldiers go away, and they will be here when they come back. I now come to one of the most important features of our defence policy, namely, the attitude towards it of the young men of this country. What has the Government done during the last sis or eight years to make the young men of Australia feel that they have a country for which they should be prepared tosacrifice their lives, if necessary? And it is the youth of Australia who will defend it when the time comes; it will not be those over 40 years of age. If the Government wishes to make Australia safe from any threat of invasion, it must give to the youth of the country the right to participate in industry, and to enjoy some of the good things of life. They must be given the right to earn a living, and to make a stake in the country for themselves, such as we old fogeys have. Far from having done that, however, the Government has denied them the right to work. I know men 26 years of age who have not done a day's work in their life. 1224 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - Some of them do not want to either. 1224 KLC 0 0 MAHONEY, Gerald Mr MAHONEY - There is not 1 pei cent, of the young men of Australia who would refuse a job if wages and conditions were such as they ought to be. If the young men were treated properly there would be no need to introduce conscription. I cannot follow the mental processes of those who support the Government. 1224 10000 0 0 PROWSE, John Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Prowse - The honorable member has exhausted his time. 1224 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- Regarding the general question before the House, I have nothing to say whatever. I wish to discuss only the subject of defence, which is the only one of any moment with which we are now concerned. It is desirable that we should consider the attitude of the Labour party to defence, and particularly the pronouncements of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), setting forth the policy of his party. That honorable gentleman seemed rather proud of the term, " peace by negotiation ". He even" claimed that his party was the originator of it; but I do not think that there is very much to boast of in that. How could the Labour party hope to negotiate successfully and peacefully with any eastern power's demand on the subject of the White Australia policy unless we had some power to support our policy? Even with the full strength of the signatory powers behind it, the League of Nations was not able to achieve anything by peaceful negotiation when Abyssinia and China were attacked. What was necessary in both instances was that the countries concerned should have been in a position to protect themselves. The Leader of the Opposition said that we should not be dragged into war merely to uphold one form of government as against another. The whole tenor of the Labour party's policy is to the effect that Australia should take all it can from Great Britain and the Empire but give nothing in return. Its policy is wholly anti-British' so far as defence is concerned. I do not believe for a moment that the people of Australia would endorse that policy. It must be apparent to any thinking person that Australia, with its huge area, and its small population of less than 7,000,000 people, could not possibly defend itself from attack by one of the totalitarian states without the help of the British Navy. Any one who believes that we could is living in a fool's paradise. According to the Opposition, the best service that Australia can render the Empire is to attend to its own business. The Leader of the Opposition said that we should prepare to protect ourselves. But how are we to do it? He does not appear to be prepared to make any sacrifice. Conditions throughout the world have changed tremendously in recent years, and the position of Australia has been gravely altered as a result. When the Empire parliamentary delegation from Australia was abroad three years ago, we were in Home when it was announced that Mr. Eden, the then Foreign Secretary in the Government of Great Britain, had asked the French Government whether, in the event of war with Italy, the ports and dockyards of France would be available to the British Navy. A declaration of war seemed imminent, but then it was discovered that, because of Britain's disarmament policy, the defences of the country had been so weakened that it would have been dangerous to attack Italy. The Prime Minister, and other Ministers, have been abroad during the last few years, and some of them have visited Germany, Italy, and other European countries. They must have learned something of the changed' situation in regard to world politics, and I have been surprised that, since their return, they have failed to tell the people the truth regarding these matters. Professor Berriedale Keith, an authority on international affairs, has written a history of events from the signing of the Versailles Treaty up to the present time. In the preface to that book he makes this astounding statement - A very important declaration of his conception of the duty of a government by Mr. Baldwin on November 12th, elaborated on November 18th, revealed to a rather astonished world the fact that he had realized two years earlier the deficiency of British defence preparations, but had not attempted to remedy them because of the risk of loss of popularity and of seats at the general election. His doctrine, however, seems to have satisfied his followers and to go far to establish the principle that leaders should follow rather than sock to guide public opinion. The plausibility of this theory, if restricted to the sphere of domestic affairs, disappears when applied to external relations, for it is in the nature of things inevitable that the public has far too little knowledge of foreign relations to be able to form any intelligent judgment as to the needs of defence, and that1 it is peculiarly incumbent on Ministers in all matters falling within that sphere to take the initiative even lit the risk of unpopularity. The Prime Minister, and other Ministers, must have realized the change that had come over the situation, and its effect upon the security of Australia. Do they, like Mr. Baldwin, consider that the people should be kept in ignorance in regard to these strange conditions, fearing that it may have unfavorable political repercussions? Until the last year or two, we always felt confident that we could obtain ample assistance from outside in the event of Australia being attacked. That is not by any means so sure now. The policy of Australia makes us liable to attack by other countries. There is the White Australia policy, which tends to antagonize the people of India, China, Japan, and other Eastern countries. Then there is the policy of high protection and trade diversion, which has created a great deal of antagonism. We must recognize, therefore, that we are liable at any time to be attacked, and this makes it all the more necessary that those in positions , of trust should tell the people of the dangers , which they have to face. I have an extract from the Sydney Morning Herald of the 17th October last on the obligation of secrecy, which reads - Mr. W. J. Hands, who waa Controller of the Ministry of National Service in Britain in 1918, said in an interview yesterday that public opinion in Australia was far out of touch with the actual state of affairs in England -and Europe, and it was a pity that the British Official Secrets Act prevented English visitors to this country from telling Australia just what was the real state of affairs. Mr. Hands, who reached Sydney on Saturday in the Empire Star, said that Federal Ministers, who had recently been in England, were in touch with European affairs, but it was a criminal shame that the public was not taken into the confidence of the Governments. It is a shame - I do not say a criminal shame - that those Ministers who have first-hand knowledge of the difficulty which confronted Mr. Chamberlain recently when he made that courageous trip to Germany should not come into the open and take the people into their confidence. We know that more population is necessary and that it is also necessary that this country should be well protected, and we want to do everything possible for the purpose of developing our defences. The August issue of Mufti publishes an editorial in which the following paragraph appears : - The need for trained men is indicated. In the near future, it might become imperative. What then would he the fate .of a government that had had the opportunity to raise and train an adequate defence force but lacked the necessary political courage; and what the tate of the untrained young manhood of Australia? Just imagine what would happen, in the event of a sudden call to the colours, to our boys if they were not trained. It is outrageous that such a position might possibly arise. I have always believed in compulsory military service. I believe that it has a good disciplinary effect quite apart from the military viewpoint. I subscribe to the belief that, if necessary, the Constitution should be altered to make impossible the conscription of our men to fight overseas, but they must be trained to defend Australia. The returned soldiers who went through the last war and know the tragedies and horror of warfare, and whose only desire is for the efficient defence of this country, carried the following resolution at the Victorian conference of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League of Australia : - That this conference, representative of returned soldiers in this State, registers its emphatic disapproval at thu attitude of the Minister for Defence towards suggestions for lim introduction of universal military training, and views with anxious misgivings the future of the Commonwealth.. and so on, strongly urging that -we should have universal training in Australia. It is in support of that that I rose to speak. Changes in the international situation so seriously endanger Australia that it is incumbent upon us to make every effort to make this country secure. God knows what would happen if, in the event of an invasion of Australia, the British Navy were unable to give us speedy assistance. 1226 KF9 Kalgoorlie 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN .- -I listened very attentively to the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) and I regret that I was unable to follow his argument in respect of the part played by the Australian Labour party in defence. I know that the honorable gentleman desires to be fair, but he must recognize that the Labour party's policy is not merely, as he would lead the House to believe, one of peace by negotiation. That is not a full statement of the position. We consider that the policy for defence enunciated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) is more adequate than (hat of the Ministry, and we have not gone into this matter of defence without expert advice. 1226 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Did the honorable gentleman get any "good oil" from the Defence Department when he was Minister for Defence? 1226 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - That was many years ago. The policy of the Labour party is one for the most adequate defence of this country, but it does subscribe to the policy of peace by negotiation, and it is not alone in doing so. All honorable members know that it was the policy of peace by negotiation espoused by the Prime Minister of England, Mr. Chamberlain, that saved this country and Europe from being precipitated into war. If the honorable member for Swan had his way we should have been at war in defence of Czechoslovakia, which we could not have helped, and another vast amount of war debt would have been added to the £700,000,000 which we still owe in respect of the last war. 1226 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - And there would have been thousands more dead. 1226 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - Yes. Fortunately for the world Mr. Chamberlain believes in peace .by negotiation. The honorable member for Swan accused this party of being lacking in political courage. In what way? In what way does the La:bour party's defence policy 'become less effective than that of the party which he blindly follows? The honorable gentleman claims that he is not in favour of the voluntary military training system, but for the last seven years he has been a supporter of a Government which has made no move to substitute a compulsory system. Even yesterday the Prime Minister ,.(Mr. Lyons) .announced himself in favour of continuing the voluntary system. I do not intend to labour the defence question, because our position is clear. We are prepared to defend Australia against any enemy coming to our shores. That policy is beginning to have the support of not only some honorable gentlemen opposite but also men of high place in the Defence Department itself. If we in Australia are prepared to protect 10,000 miles of coastline and a sparsely populated country against an invader, and thereby defend a key position in the southern hemisphere, we undertake a courageous task. We could not depend on the British Navy, if Britain were engaged in a war in Europe, to come to our assistance if Australia were being attacked; we should have to defend ourselves. It does not require any imagination to realize that. The motion of want of confidence was based not on what this Government has or has not done in respect of defence, but on the fact that the Government is lacking in leadership. The Prime Minister very adroitly refrained from attempting to reply to that aspect of the matter, with all the blarney that he has at his command, he set off on a different tack in order to show that so much more money had been expended on defence since the Labour party vacated office than before. He cited facts and figures to show that this Government had expended more on defence than had been expended by the Scullin Government of which the right honorable gentleman himself was a member. I shall not dwell on the right honorable gentleman's change of allegiance because I have dealt with that matter before. I take this opportunity, however, to impress upon the Government that it could increase the numbers of voluntary military trainees, if it thinks it necessary, if it paid them for the job as the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Mahoney) suggested it should do. 1227 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - Will the employers give them leave? 1227 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - If they will not it is not beyond the power of this Parliament to pass legislation that will compel employers to release volunteer trainees to attend camps. The attitude of the employers towards allowing employees time to attend camp has been a difficulty in the past. It requires a certain temperament for a man to offer himself for military training, but if any one does so he first needs to be assured that his job will be safe. He cannot be blamed for that, and, in the circumstances, it is the responsibility of the Government to see that he is fully protected. 1227 KVN 0 0 STREET, Geoffrey Mr Street - 'Can the honorable member suggest any sum that they should be paid? 1227 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - I should say that it should be more than it was 50 years ago, when I as a, perhaps, misguided youth was a member of the militia and travelled regularly seventeen miles back and forth on certain nights to attend drill. We were paid 2s. 6d. for night parades, 5s. for Saturday afternoon parades, and 10s. for all-day parades. I should say that the payments should be more liberal now. The Labour party has been charged that when the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) was Prime Minister it reduced the amount of money that was being expended on defence by its predecessors, but the Bruce-Page Government, foreseeing the period of recession, set aside for expenditure on defence in 1928-29 only £3,600,000. At that time our population was 1,000,000 less than it is to-day, and consequently our danger was greater. * When the Scullin Labour Government abolished compulsory military training in 1929 the whole system was farcical. At that time when trainees were ordered to turn right they turned left and did other similar ridiculous things. Many of the men who would have been glad to participate in a properly organized system of training were disgusted with things as they were. The idea of Australians with a vote forcing young Australians who had no vote to engage in a compulsory system of training was objectionable. I well remember that in Boulder City on one occasion young fellows who were by no means slackers stationed their buglers on the dumps of the mines to signal when the police were about and, in the meantime, they broke the windows of the drill halls and in other ways showed their entire disrespect for unpopular officers. The same kind of thing happened elsewhere. When that system was abolished the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White), who was most hostile to the change, said that under a voluntary system we would not get 10 per cent, of the number of men we required. He accused me of being a slacker, and said many other unkind things about me. But although he has since been a member of the Cabinet for many years, he has not raised his voice in the House once to advocate a return to compulsory military training. He has been quite content to " sit pretty " and rely upon the voluntary system. The honorable member for Henty (Sir Henry Gullett), who was also a strong believer in compulsory military training, said a lot of nasty things about me and my colleagues at that time. He accused the Government of having wilfully and maliciously abolished our defence force. His conduct since shows that his remarks must have been for the purposes of a political stunt, for he also has been a member of the Cabinet and, so far as we know, did not urge the Government to revert to compulsory military training. The Bruce-Page Government practically suspended compulsory military training between 1921 and 1929. When the Scullin Government came into office Australia was supposed to have 371 training centres; but actually it" had only 42. We were supposed to have 47,000 trainees in service, but actually we found that only 7,000 attended drill on a Saturday afternoon. I cannot say that I was surprised, for unless a man is a keen rifle shot he does not wish to go to the rifle range every Saturday. About 40,000 of the trainees at that time watched or played football or other sports or went out with their girls, on Saturday afternoons, and I cannot blame them very much for doing so. The plain fact is that, although the honorable member for Bala1clava rattled his sword in its scabbard at that time, and, as a military officer under oath to support the activities of the Defence Department, very severely criticized what was being done, he has since had ample opportunity to effect a change of policy, but has taken no steps to do so as far as we are aware. In my opinion the Government made a wise decision when it declared that it would adhere to the compulsory system. I do not know how successful the present Minister for Defence is in his administrative work. I know, however, that his predecessor in office was a very approachable man. We could always discuss defence matters with him, and obtain a certain amount of satisfaction. .If we asked questions in the House we received fairly satisfactory answers. At any rate, we could be sure that what he told us was in accordance with the facts. I regret to say that the present Minister for Defence seems to regard every question asked him as a personal affront. Those who ask questions of the honorable gentleman must be prepared to be browbeaten, and honorable members do not like that. Moreover, the information given to us by him . is not as correct as it could be. Not long ago, when the British Government was under contract to supply Australia with a certain number of Avro-Anson aeroplanes, the deliveries were much behind schedule. Great Britain was, of course, anxious to strengthen its own force. A statement appeared in the press on a certain day to the effect that Britain was purchasing machines from the United States of America. I thereupon asked" the Minister for Defence whether the press statement was correct, and, if so, whether Australia should not also purchase some" machines from the United States of America. Possibly the British Government had discovered that the American machines were more satisfactory than British machines for defence purposes, and in dealing with such a matter efficiency is the first consideration. Undoubtedly the defence planes that Australia obtained from Great Britain a few years ago were far less satisfactory than those obtained from America. We had many accidents with the British aeroplanes that could. not be said to be due to mistakes by pilots. The fact is, that the British aeroplanes were not suitable for the long-distance travelling in Australia. When I asked whether the Government would consider purchasing some machines from America, the Minister said that it would not. If the honorable gentleman had wished to avoid giving a definite answer to the question he could have said that Government policy was involved. Actually, we find now that his statement was incorrect, for the Prime Minister has informed us that 50 Lockheed bombers are to be obtained from the United States of America. Let me give another instance of incorrect information being given in reply to questions. Not long ago the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) asked whether certain statements that the Government intended to increase the number of trainees under the voluntary system was correct, and he was told that there was no truth whatever in them. We now find that there was a great deal of truth in them. I can .quite understand that it may not be wise, in the public interests, to divulge certain decisions in relation to the Defence Department; but that is no justification for giving honorable members incorrect information in reply to questions. The honorbale member- for Henty, the honorable member for Balaclava, and the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis), who have declared themselves as keen advocates for compulsory military training, have all been members of the Government, and the honorable member for Balaclava is still a member of it. If they are so keen on compulsory military training, why do they not make a public declaration in the House to that effect, and bring their influence to bear upon the Government to obtain an alteration of the present policy ? Our charge against the Government - that it is leaderless - ds undoubtedly true, for members of the Cabinet have been telling one another in the last few weeks that the great need of the country is leadership. The Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies), with great courage, went to Sydney recently and made a speech to this effect. I do not know whether it would be quite correct to say that he bearded the lion iu his den, but at any rate he made it very clear that the country needed leadership. The Treasurer (Mr. Casey) has made similar statements. 1 In fact, our need of leadership has been shouted from the housetops. Owing to the lack of effective leadership we are surely entitled to information which will enable us to determine whether our defence expenditure of £16,000,000 this year, as against £3,000,000 ten years ago, is being wisely directed. We have good reason for believing that in certain respects, at any rate, we are not getting value for our money. Men whose word I can trust, who were once officers of the Defence Department, but are now not employed there, have assured me that many of the units of our Air Force are so much junk. 1229 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan - Was not the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green) Minister for Defence at one time ? 1229 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - I was. These AvroAnson planes are on loan from the British Government. We have had experience of gift cruisers and gift submarines in the past; unfortunately they proved to be of second-rate material. These Avro- Ansons take so long to reach the necessary altitude for bombing purposes that the pilots would be shot to pieces by modern machines long before- they would be able to reach their objective. No pilot in the Royal Australian Air Force would dare to take one of them into the air against, an opposing enemy plane. I understand that the Hawker-Demons have a range of under 300 miles. This is the sort of equipment upon which we have been spending our money. In the United States of America army planes go across the continent without having to refuel. 1229 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - The American army planes have a range of 4,000 miles. 1229 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr GREEN - That is so. It therefore behoves us to make sure that for our expenditure of £16,000,000 on defence we get good value. It would be better to cut down our defence vote to £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 per annum, and secure good value, than to lull ourselves into a sense of false security by purchasing inefficient defence materiel and fancying that we have thereby bought security. Expenditure on defence is provided for at the expense of the social development of the country, and for this reason alone we should ensure that every effort is made to get the best value for our money. 1229 KFS Henty 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Sir HENRY GULLETT . - I would not have intervened in this somewhat futile debate were it not for the remarks dropped by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) who spoke in disparaging terms of the former member for Warringah, my old friend, Sir Archdale Parkhill. I do not wish to enter into a controversy with the honorable member for Warringah, but I was a member of this House when Sir Archdale Parkhill first came into it. His work is' well known to 'me, and to honorable members all around the chamber, both as a prominent member of the Opposition, and afterwards as a Minister upon this side of the House. I have known no honorable member in recent years who devoted himself more constantly, and more assiduously, to the task of the moment and the day than did Sir Archdale Parkhill. Therefore, I deplore very much that his successor in this chamber should have thought fit to cast reflections on one who carried on his work well during his time as a member and who always supported his side in a very remarkable way, one who gave heart to many Ministers who were in difficulty at the table by his timely interventions and one who, to the best of my knowledge - and for years I was his -colleague in Cabinet - carried on the administration of his departments so admirably. 1230 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - What has that to do with the motion before the Chair? 1230 KFS 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Sir HENRY GULLETT - The honorable member for Warringah was permitted to make those remarks, and I take it that I may be permitted to say something on the other side. It was said by the honorable gentleman that Sir Archdale Parkhill left to his ministerial successor, the present Minister for Defence (Mr. Thorby), a very heavy task. I venture the opinion that the affairs of the Defence Department were quite as satisfactory when Sir Archdale Parkhill left it as they were found to be upon the occasion of the recent "mobilization " during the European crisis. The only subject I should like, very briefly, to touch upon this afternoon is the decision of the Government, as announced by the Prime Minister (Mr. Lyons) to adhere to voluntary training for our army in this country. I am profoundly disappointed in that decision. I regard it as an amazing one in the circumstances which prevail at the moment. I regard the perseverance with, and the enlargement of, the voluntary system as something which will give us no real results towards the defence of this country. I regard it as a great waste of public money. Indeed, I feel so strongly about it that I trust that this endeavour to expand the number of volunteers from 42,000 to 70,000 will fail. It carries no good wishes of mine because I do not think it represents an effective contribution to the vital defence of this country. This country is either in danger to-day or it is not. We, who do not know as much as the Government knows, must assume from the declarations and the actions of the Government, that it is ir near and real danger. I take it that this Government, or any other government, would not announce the emergency purchase of 50 new Lockheed fighting aeroplanes from the United States of America unless it believed that Australia did stand in real danger. I take it that all this expansion and reconditioning of the Navy, the discussions relating to a battleship, the enlargement on a grand scale of the air force, the upbuilding of coastal defences, and the increased manufacture of munitions, are all evidence that the Government does believe this country to be menaced at this moment. I applaud all that the Government is doing in respect of the larger part of its defence programme. That I have previously made clear in this House. I believe that the defence of this country must be on a co-operative basis with that of Great Britain. I believe absolutely that Singapore is a great outside citadel for the defence of this country; but I would not bank, as the Government appears willing to do, entirely upon Singapore. Let us, by all means, mainly with our Australian navy, and, perhaps, with portion of our air force, co-operate with all our might with Singapore, but let us be prepared for real resistance should our defences at Singapore fail, and should a hostile force get down here and engage in heavy raiding or an actual invasion of this country. If a hostile force comes to this country it will probably be a veteran force accustomed to actual campaigning. What have we in this country to-day to oppose such a force? We have some 35,000 young volunteers almost completely untrained with the exception of the country men of the force. I wish very clearly to distinguish between the light horse and other units raised in the country districts, and the great infantry contribution made by the metropolitan districts. Everybody knows that our young country man is accustomed to the use of arms; he is accustomed to using sporting rifles from his boyhood; he is a horseman and accustomed to the use of heavy tools; trenching would be easy to him; and he might, with very little training, be made into a good soldier who could be put into a defensive line with some confidence that we were not inviting him to self-sacrifice. The position with respect to the city militia units i3 entirely different. To give to city bred and born youths this wretched few days and nights of training a year and to depend upon them as a force which we could put into the firing line swiftly after an invading force landed here or war was declared, is ridiculous. In contemplating that, the Government is guilty of a very very grave offence. These imperfectly-trained infantry units would have to take the burden of the blow from raiders. High in spirit, but given no opportunity to become competent soldiers, they represent the nucleus on which a larger army of raw recruits would be based. The infantry units would be called upon to absorb the recruit who had never handled a rifle and who knew nothing whatever of war. The thought of that is, to me, an appalling one. The citizen force, with its present training, would bo a mere suicide club, if it were ti> encounter any real invading trouble. As I say, I find it almost impossible to believe that a responsible Government could propose the continuance, nay, almost the doubling in strength, of this untrained and unfortunate force. "Why, it fails from the very moment of its enlistment! It is thoroughly bad. First of all, it is grossly unfair in a democracy which, as I say, the Government has declared to be in danger, that the defence of this country should rest upon high-spirited volunteers. The only fair system is that the defence of the country should rest by law equally over all our young manhood. Any other system for the defence of this country in time of crisis must disappoint every democrat in this chamber. Some employers encourage their young employees to take part in this voluntary training; others do not, with the result that we have unequal sacrifice, not to the same acute degree as with the unequal sacrifice running through our young men, but nevertheless an unequal sacrifice which affects the competitive capacity of our various businesses and industries. Again, under the voluntary system, we do not get the most able potential soldiers. How many athletes are there in the citizen forces to-day? I suggest that there are very few. How many in the forces to-day excel in any way at cricket - not in first grade, but even in tenth grade cricket - and how many are there who get a garniof any kind of football or any other sport? Athletes do not take to the militia forces, and thus we miss the very salt of our youth under the present system. What is the physical standard demanded of a trainee? We have now a very much reduced standard. Not 50 per cent, of those being enlisted to-day would be accepted if a war-time standard were imposed. Then we come to the matter of their training. We all know .that it is a farcical training; they know as much about soldiering when they have undergone a year's training as they would know about science or an intricate trade if they spent from five to ten days intermittently in the study of it. The system does not permit of the establishment of any reserve. To me, perseverance with the system causes a feeling of dismay. Surely in the development of the defence force we have not in contemplation the winning of a war! We wish to avoid war. We do not desire the satisfaction of defeating hostile alien troops that had landed on Australian soil. Our aim all the time should be to make this country so repellant and dangerous that no invader would come here. I believe that it is absolutely in our power to do that, small though our population is. We have the necessary financial resource's. The Government, out of political weakness, out of some utterly unworthy political consideration, refuses to make a real attempt to tackle the task in hand. It certainly has gone a long way; it is expending £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 a year. Yet it contemplates the continuation of a system under which, if the outer ring of our defence were broken, this country would be defenceless, and our nationhood, of which we dream on the grandest scale, would possibly be destroyed before it had really begun to develop. To-day Australia is a temptation to all overcrowded countries. There are those who still dream that, in a period of crisis, friends would appear from some quarter - I know not where - in great strength, swiftly and surely, to aid us. I again put it to the House : Who went to the aid of Abyssinia, Austria, Czechoslovakia and - the strongest illustrationof all - the Chinese? We are living in a new world compared with the conditions that existed twenty years ago. It was unthinkable 25 years ago that the great powers of the world would have stood by and allowed the Japanese to overrun China; there would have been intervention by half a dozen countries. To-day not a single nation thinks fit to intervene; not that none do not wish to do so, but modern war presents a prospect so terrible, that none will take any step calculated to bring such a cataclysm upon civilization. Therefore, Australia stands alone - the richest, the loveliest, the most attractive of the young countries; as large in area as the United States of America and as the whole of Europe without Russia. We in this young country stand alone in the Pacific, except for such aid as, in a time of emergency, Great Britain might be able to give to us. I support the Government absolutely in its policy of co-operation. The isolationist policy of the Opposition is very much like the policy of a grazier in the big grass country at the height of the summer, when bush fires are raging, who decides that he will not participate with his neighbours in fighting a conflagration, but will meet the blaze only when it reaches his own boundary. That is a complete parallel. Foolish though such an attitude would be, it is no more foolish than the isolationist defence policy of honorable gentlemen opposite. Motion (by Mr. Thompson) put - That the question be now put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker. - Hon. G. J. Bell.) 39 29 Majority.... 10 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question put - That, because of its lamentable lack of leadership in regard to urgent national problems, the Government has forfeited the confidence of this House. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.) 28 41 Majority...... 13 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Motion negatived. 1233 bill Motion by Mr. White - by leave - agreed to - That he have leave to bring in a bill for an act to provide for the validation of collec tions of duties of customs under Customs Tariff Proposals. Bill brought up by Mr. White and read a first time. 1233 KZR Balaclava UAP Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE . - by leave - I move - That the bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this bill is to validate until the 4th May next year, the collections of duties imposed under a customs tariff resolution introduced on the 4th May this year. Honorable members will recollect that, under the Government's trade diversion policy, a licensing system was applied to the importation of certain classes of goods from certain foreign sources. Towards the end of 1937, the Government reviewed its policy on trade diversion and, on the 7th December, 1937, I informed the House of the intention of the Government to alter the licensing system, and to substitute a system of adequate duties where such action was necessary for the protection of Australian industry. Ultimately, the licensing system was terminated, except in the case of motor chassis. In the meantime, inquiries had been instituted with the object of ascertaining to what extent Australian manufacturers had incurred additional capital expenditure in the production of the goods covered by the trade diversion policy, and the need for further tariff protection to safeguard that capital expenditure, pending reports by the Tariff Board after public inquiry as to the amount of the protection necessary. As the result of these inquiries, the Government came to the conclusion that, pending a public inquiry by the Tariff Board, there was need for additional duties under the general tariff on a number of articles to safeguard the new capital which had been incurred, or the extensions which had taken place. Accordingly, in May last, the Government introduced tariff proposals increasing the general tariff rates on a number of lines, including lawnmowers of certain types, refrigerators, fractional horse-power motors, electric fans, spring hinges, advertising posters, pencils of wood,' motor vehicle springs, and shock absorbers. It was made clear that these duties were to be regarded as of a temporary nature, at least until such time as the Tariff Board had reported upon the various subjects. Up to the present, the Tariff Board has not completed its reports upon the subjects covered by the tariff proposals of May, 1938, and in order that the capital expenditure incurred may be safeguarded in the meantime, the Government is desirous of validating the duties from the time of their imposition until the 4th May next. There are no politics in this, and there is no reason for a general discussionon rates of duty or on tariff policy. Because of the tragedy which led to the adjournment of the House last week, this bill could not then be passed, and it is necessary now that it be passed through all stages in both Houses by to-morrow. Honorable members are aware that tariff proposals must be validated or ratified within six months after being" tabled. These duties are not to be ratified. They will merely be validated, so that no importer will be able to sue the Government for the recovery of duties alreadycollected. Sitting suspended from 5.57 until 8 p.m. 1234 F4U Capricornia 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE .- I do notintend to oppose this bill, but I wish to make a few observations in regard to certain aspects of it. It is rendered necessary because the Government was not prepared to allow Parliament to consider the items contained in the tariff schedule, which it seeks to ratify, within six months after it was tabled. That schedule was tabled on the 4th May last, and this bill, when passed, will validate the collection of the duties set out in the schedule, without our having first considered the wisdom of the whole of the items. The validation of these collections will mean that the collection of duties under the schedule will be continued for another six months, a full year from when the schedule was tabled. It is well to point out that this process is a departure from the intention of Parliament when it accepted an amendment to the Customs Act making it mandatory for tariff proposals to be considered by Parliament within six months of being tabled. 1234 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - I suppose that this bill is really a promise of an early session next year ? 1234 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I presume that that is so, unless the Government intends again to circumvent the intention of Parliament by introducing another validating measure. Probably, that is what it will do. 1234 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - The amendment that was made to the Customs Act, at any rate, makes it compulsory that tariff proposals be brought before Parliament for approval. 1234 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - What is the use of bringing it before Parliament in this way? We are asked to accept it en bloc without knowing what we are voting for. Eventually, we hope we shall have the opportunity to discuss the individual items, but that is to be denied us at present. I am sorry that the Government did not call Parliament together at an earlier date, in order to afford it that opportunity, instead of asking honorable members to pass legislation before to-morrow in order to safeguard the revenues of the Commonwealth by the validation of past collections of customs duties under the schedule. 1234 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - The idea of this bill, apparently, is to avoid compliance with the direction -given by Parliament to the Government to place before Parliament for consideration each tariff schedule before the elapse of six months after its tabling. 1234 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - That was the intention of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) and of Parliament in 1934. I give that honorable member credit for being consistent in his attitude towards the tariff. We, on this side, do not agree with his view. He stands, as do most of the members of the Country party, for a low tariff. 1234 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - The honorable member means " for freetrade ". 1234 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Yes, some members of the Country party are freetraders, but the policy of the Australian Labour party is for a protective tariff that will give effective protection to Australian industries. There is no halfway measure about our policy, whether it be in relation to primary industries or secondary industries. I return to the point that the action of the Government in bringing down this bill is tantamount to introducing a tariff schedule and leaving it on the table for a year, whereas it was intended, when the Customs Act was amended, that it should not lie on the table for more than six months without being given consideration by the House. Unless Parliament does consider and pass this schedule within six months from now, the Government will have to bring down another validating measure. What guarantee will the Minister give us? 1234 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - Unless the duties are altered. I remind the honorable member for Capricornia that they are only temporary duties, imposed pending inquiry by the Tariff Board. 1234 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - That is possible. We were told that six months ago, and I did not object to them. I do not find serious fault with what the Minister for Trade and Customs is doing, but I remind him that he took me to task when I was Minister for Trade and Customs for depending on the recommendations of departmental experts for decision as to the. rates of duties that should be imposed. The leaders of the two parties opposite, when the composite Ministry wasformed, declared that no customs dutieswould , be imposed unless the Tariff Board had first considered the itemsand made recommendations thereon and that the Government would abide by these recommendations. Despite that declaration, the duties, the collection of which the Government now seeks to validate, were imposed on the advice, no doubt,of departmental experts, who are very competent gentlemen, probably more competent even than members of the Tariff Board to make recommendations as to what should be the rates of duties. They, however, are the very persons who were criticized by the Minister for Trade and Customs when he was a private mem* ber in opposition. The Labour Government was toldthen that the departmental officers were no better than office boys, and that no reliance could be, placed on their advice. That was the attitude of the Minister for Trade and Customs as a private member, but his attitude as Minister for Trade and Customs is the same attitude as that which was taken by me when I held the same office. The Minister cannot have it both ways. The Government came to the conclusion that, pending a public inquiry by the Tariff Board, there was need to increase certain duties. Accordingly, in May last, the Government introduced a new schedule in which the duties were increased on a number of lines. I do not object to that because I have no doubt that the increased duties are necessary and that departmental experts satisfied themselves on all points before they made any recommendation to the Minister. I am constrained to point out, however, that it is obvious that if they are right in their recommendations now, they must have been equally right when they made recommendations to the Labour Government, although honorable members opposite declared then that they were wrong. When certain honorable gentlemen opposite pressed for the limitation of the period in which a tariff schedule could lie on the table of the House without ratification, and a time limit of six months was adopted, it was said that the old system resulted . in unauthorized collection . of taxes behind the back of Parliament. Some illuminating speeches were made in this House in July, . 193.4, when legislation to amend the Customs Act 1901- 1930 was bef orehonorablemembers..:" I shall quote certain extracts from the speeches of certain honorable gentlemen, but before I do so, let us. examine the legislation. It was brought down by the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) and the bill soughtto add these words to the appropriate section - or before the expiration of six months after such tariff or tariff alteration is proposed, whichever first happens. The honorable gentleman said that the amendment would become operative from the 1st January, 1935, and that it was intended that all schedules would be considered item by item by Parliament before the expiry of six months after their having been tabled. At first it was proposed to impose a time limit of three months. That proposal was contained in a requested amendment from the Senate, but it was decided by honorable members in their wisdom - to decline to accept that period as the time limit, because the Minister for Trade and Customs himself pointed out the difficulties that would arise if Parliament had to be called upon to discuss seriatim a tariff schedule within three months of its coming into operation. Before the adoption of , the amendment, fixing the time limit at six months, tariff schedules had remained in force from the time they were tabled until the end of the parliamentary session in which they were tabled. Before general elections it was absolutely necessary to validate the collections of customs duties, because, otherwise, all the sums collected in pursuance of the schedules would have had to be returned to the persons who imported the goods on which the duties were collected. The present Minister for Trade and Customs properly rejected the time limit of three months and suggested that it should be six months, but the then honorable member for Darling Downs, Sir Littleton Groom, an eminent constitutional lawyer, who had been a Minister for Trade and Customs in a former administration, as well as haying been the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth, indicated the difficulties that would arise in the future if the Minister for Trade and Customs tried to placate certain honorable gentlemen in both Houses of this Parliament, who were seeking the imposition of a time limit. The late honorable gentleman said - Ifa provision suchas that now beforeus had been included in the first Customs Act, this House would have had to put on one side all other legislative business in an endeavour to complete the consideration of the tariff within six months from the date of the tabling of the schedule. That would have been absolutely impossible. The first customs tariff schedule was tabled in this House on the8th October, 1 901, but it was not considered and passed until the 6th September, 1902, a period of approximately eleven months. The second comprehensive schedule was tabled on the8th August, 1907, and was not considered until the 3rd June, 1908. The third tariff schedule was tabled by the then Minister for Trade and Customs, Sir Walter Massy-Greene, on the 24th March, 1920. It was not ratified for a year and nine months. The then honorable member for Darling Downs had those facts in mind when he made an interesting speech on the subject of an imposition of a time limit. He said - I think it would be unwise, in all circumstances, to accept the proposed six months period provided for in this clause. This provision may force the Government into a false position, and place a limitation not only upon the Parliament, but also upon the administration in connexion with the affairs of the nation. 1236 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - Where lies the difficulty when bills of this description can be introduced? Mr.FORDE. - This bill does not permit us to examine the schedule; we are asked to accept it without examination. Not two honorable members know what it contains. . For the last two days we have been debating a motion of want of confidence in this Government, and one of the reasons advanced by the Government for the application of the gag, when at least eight honorable members on this side and probably eight on the other side desired to speak, was that the Government had to have passed through both Houses of Parliament a bill to validate the collections of customs duties by to-morrow, because otherwise the Commonwealth Government would be open to action in the courts of law for the recovery of the collections. If Parliament had been called together at an earlier date, there would have been no need for this bill, because honorable members could have had full opportunity to discuss the items contained in the schedule. 1236 JUQ 0 0 CLARK, Joseph Mr Clark - As a matter of fact, there was opportunity earlier in the session for Parliament to discuss thetariff. 1236 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Yes, Parliament met for a few hours and adjourned for a week. On the slightest pretext honorable members who had travelled to Canberra from 'long distances were sent away again for another week. If the Government had no other business to place before Parliament, it could at least have placed before it the tariff schedule that it now seeks to validate. Everything indicates that the Government was not serious when it accepted the time limit of six months. At any rate, it saw means whereby the desire of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Gregory) could be circumvented. The Government has by devious means taken action to avoid the discussion of the tariff item by item. The Minister for Trade and Customs realizes now the difficulties that would be encountered in having to discuss a tariff schedule within six months ofits having been tabled, but when he was in opposition, he voted for an amendment moved by the honorable member forSwan, which would have made it necessary for tariff schedules to be considered, not within six months, but within 90 days. He made a very eloquent speech on the subject. I admit that wheneven the honorable gentleman speaks on the subject either of defence or of tariff - he knows as much about defence as any member of the Ministry although he has not been allotted the defence portfolio - he is most eloquent. He was particularly eloquent when he said that there was no justification for a tariff schedule to be left on the table for more "than 90 days after being placed before Parliament. The honorable gentleman said that he could not conceive of any difficulty arising. 1237 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - I said a good deal more than that. 1237 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I am referring to the most eloquent passages in the honorable gentleman's speech.- When pressure was brought to bear upon him by his newfound friends of the Country party, whom he had roundly chastised on other occasions for their fiscal outlook, the honorable gentleman said - The effect of this clause, if agreed to, will he that tariff schedules must be ratified within six months. That was no doubt intended as a concession to the indefatigable honorable member for Swan, who may always be relied upon to take whatever steps are possible to compel Parliament to consider tariff items at the earliest possible date, and, if possible, to reject them. The Minister also observed - If the clause is adopted the old schedule will have to bc validated or money collected under it will have to be refunded. This will spur the Government to speed up its tariff debates. However, I do not intend to oppose the bill. I believe in considering tariff schedules item by item at the earliest possible date. I simply point out that the adoption of this method of dealing with the tariff does not achieve the desire of the honorable member for Swan to have tariff schedules discussed item by item within six months of being tabled. In this connexion I remind honorable members of the fine speech made on this subject by the late honorable member for Darling Downs on the 4th July, 1934, when he directed attention to the difficulties that would confront the Government if it accepted the amendment. The Minister for Trade and Customs did not see eye to eye with the honorable member for Darling Downs on that occasion, with the result that to-day he is appealing to the Parliament to pass this bill without delay because we are within one day of the expiration of the six months period during which the schedule should bc ratified. Although I am not opposing the measure, I feel justified in directing attention to the : inconsistencies of the Minister. 1237 KFE Swan 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY .- I have listened with a good deal of patience to much ado about nothing. The Minister for Trade and Commerce (Mr. White) is adopting the correct course in seeking the approval of Parliament to this bill. The object of the amendment which I, in this House, and Sir Hal Colebatch, in the Senate, were instrumental in having inserted in the Customs Act, was to ensure the supremacy of Parliament in regard tQ tariff matters, and to make n impossible for governments to give effect to tariff schedules year after year without seeking the endorsement of Parliament. 1237 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr Lazzarini - The honorable member is fooling himself. 1237 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - Nature did that for the honorable member for Werriwa. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde) discussed at some length the procedure adopted in connexion with tariff schedules introduced in 1909 and 1920, but he did not tell the House anything about the tariff schedule introduced in the last period of the life of the Bruce-Page Government and of the Labour Government in 1930, so I shall do so. That schedule was ratified in a some what similar manner to that which we are being asked to adopt on 'this occasion. Rut subsequently the Labour party introduced a. tariff schedule which remained in force for nearly two and a half years without the sanction of Parliament. In other words, the people were being taxed without parliamentary authority. Nowadays both Houses of the Parliament must agree to validate customs duties imposed by schedules that have been in force for six months without parliamentary consideration, or the schedules become null and void. The schedule introduced by the Labour Government was the most distorted ever placed before a parliament. The duties were not based upon reports of the Tariff Board. Apparently the government of the day said " We shall double the duty on this item, and treble the duty on that one ". That was all there was to it, and Parliament had no say in t lie matter. 1237 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - The introduction of this bill is only another means of depriving Parliament of the opportunity to express its mind upon the particular items of one tariff schedule. 1237 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - At least the Minister has to obtain the approval of both Houses of the Parliament to this bill and there is nothing to prevent the honorable member from discussing every item in the. schedule.In this way Parliament is giving a tentativeapproval to the duties. Mr.Forde.-Does the honorable member say that the Scullin schedule -was not before the Senate prior to the elections? 1238 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY -For how long was itbefore the Senate.?The honorable member does not seem to know what he is talking about; Theschedulewasnever finalized bythat Parliament, but was tentatively validatedfor four months in order,that, the succeeding Parliament could deal with it. In., other words, taxation was,imposed for nearly three years without the approval of Parliament. I wish, to refer to another matter relatingtoour customs duties. Section 15 of the, Tariff . Board, act provides - The Minister shall refer to,the board for inquiry and report the,following matters:- the necessity'for new, increased or reduced duties, and the deferment of existingor proposed deferred duties ; and , shall, not take any action in respect of any of'thosematters until he has received the report of the board. The honorable member for Capricornia has stated that some of theitems of the schedulenowunder consideration have not been consideredby.the Tariff Board. Mr.White.-That is not correct. The itemshave allbeen before the Board, and the Government has actually received and considered reports in respect of some of them. 1238 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY -The Minister is under a legalobligation to refer all items to the Tariff Board for consideration beforeanyalterations ofexistingrates ofduty aremade. I have no desire at the moment to consider the detailed itemsofthe schedule, but I ask the House to give some serious consideration to world conditions to-day, with the object of amending our. tariff rates so, asto foster more friendly relations between Australia) and some other countries. Let' us consider for a moment the proposal to manufacture motor car engines in Australia. Apparently the Government's purpose is to make it possible for any. individual who cares to.manufacture any small part of. a motor car to make a profit of anything from 100 to 300 per cent. There has been no attempt to deal with organizations such as General Motors Limited, nor has there been any suggestion that the situation could notbedealt with effectivelyby . requiring certain motor car organizations to paya .special rate of income tax.It has not been suggested, either, 'that duties onmotor car bodies should be reduced. Itisiniquitous impose a duty ofupto75 per cent. on certain motor earparts plus an additional duty of so much per lb. The duty on gears for vehicles is 37½ . per cent. plus '2s. per lb."The duty onth horsepower electric" dynamos is 15s. each plus 65 per cent. 1238 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - What about the duty on onions? 1238 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr GREGORY - The honor able member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) is quite happy so long as hecanvote for an increaseof duty. It is somewhat amusing to.compare, the attitude adopted by certain honorable gentlemen on this side of the chamber to-day with that adopted by them, when they . were sitting in opposition. Even the Prime Minister was a t one time prepared to vote for the freeentryof fencing wire into,this country. I shall, not oppose the bill. am pleased,that the. Government . is. asking the House,. in;a.reasonablewaytovali- datethe duties until such timeas . it is possible to. provide an opportunity for the items to be considered one by one. We are, in effect, giving tentative approval to the duties. It is better to do that than to allow Parliamenttobe entirely disregarded, as it was disregarded when the . honorable member for Capricornia was. Minister, for. Trade, and Customs. Under existing conditions Parliament has some measure of control over customs taxation, and I am pleased that Iwaspartly instrumental, in achieving, this end. 1238 L07 Werriwa 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI .- Wehave all heard of little children playingthe game of "make believe". The honorable member for Swan . (Mr. Gregory) seems to be in his second childhood, for he is playingthat old game to-night . He is , trying, to make the Parliament believe, that a different course, is being adopted by . the Governmeat on this occasion in respect of the tariff schedule now under notice than that which was adopted by the Scullin Government some years ago in respect of its tariff schedule. Actually there is no difference whatever. The honorable gentleman's chiding of members of the Opposition is a good illustration of Satan reproving sin-. Although Parliament may pass this bill, honorable members will still not have an opportunity to discuss the tariff schedule item, by item. That, after all, was the purpose that the honorable member for Swan wished to serve when he obtained the approval of this House in 1934 to his amendment of the Customs Act. He has seen fit to charge the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Forde) with inconsistency, but he himself is most inconsistent. His amendment was not an amendment at all. It is not serving the end that was desired, for the tricksters in the Cabinet are getting away with it just the same. The honorable member will swallow the pill whether he likes it or not; even if he thinks it to be sugarcoated he will find in the end that it is bitter aloes. The honorable member cannot get away from the fact that what is being done to-night is what was done when the Labour Government was in office. I challenge the honorable member to say -that there is anything different in the procedure adopted now and that adopted then. 1239 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - There certainly is a difference. 1239 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - I have stated the facts, and neither the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. White) nor the honorable member for Swan can get away from them. I rose only to emphasize to the honorable member for Swan that he is swallowing the pill proffered by the Minister for Trade and Customs, and passing a schedule of duties and approving of their collection for twelve months without having an opportunity to say whether he believes in them or not. It will be another six months before he even gets a "chance to amende these duties, and he knows only too well that that chance is but a slender one, and that he probably will not get such an opportunity until next May at the earliest. When the Parliament meets after the Christmas recess honorable members will find as usual that they have been summoned here for only a few days. They will be asked to validate this tariff again, and the Parliament will immediately go into a lengthy recess. If Parliament were kept open, and honorable members were given an opportunity to discuss proposed tariff duties, as was done during the regime of the Labour Government, no complaint would be raised. This schedule should have been disposed of at least three months ago. Perhaps the honorable member for Swan thinks that he might be able to get into the Cabinet, and makes this contribution towards his claims for consideration. I expected him to trounce the Minister for Trade and Customs, but he failed to do so. 1239 KFE 0 0 GREGORY, Henry Mr Gregory - It is said that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. I have not seen any Tariff Board reports. 1239 L07 0 0 LAZZARINI, Hubert Mr LAZZARINI - There are none. This Government gets the honorable member for Swan both going and coming. The Minister for Trade and Customs said that he would submit all matters to the Tariff Board, but a schedule of duties has been brought before the House for validation without any reports having been obtained. This is merely making a dummy of the Tariff Board. Neither the Minister nor the honorable member for Swan can get away with that. This Government is doing in an underground way what the Labour Government did quite openly. Duties are to be collected and the people are to be taxed without their parliamentary representatives having been given an opportunity to discuss the merits or demerits of the duties imposed. 1239 KXT Gippsland 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON . - The honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) has worked himself up into a state of synthetic indignation, and has shown a good deal of confusion of thought in stating that the position to-day, with reference to the powers of Parliament, is exactly the same as it was during the period in which a government, composed of members of the party of which the honorable member is such a distinguished ornament, was in office. The difference between the position to-day and then is that even though opportunity is" not given to discuss the actual items themselves", the Parliament must at least have an opportunity, within six months of the schedule being tabled, to say whether or not it shall be validated, whereas during the regime of the Labour Government a tariff schedule could be laid on the table and taxes could be collected under it right through until just before Parliament was dissolved, when a validating bill had to be brought down. That certainly is a very essential difference, even if the honorable member is not capable of seeing it. 1240 KZR Balaclava UAP Minister for Trade and Customs 1 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE . - It would not have been necessary for me to say anything further except for the assertion of the honorable member for Werriwa (Mr. Lazzarini) - and after all it is a mere assertion - that what the Government is doing now is what the Labour Government did openly when in office. It was made perfectly clear by the Assistant Minister (Mr. Perkins) during my absence abroad that these duties were of a temporary nature and were imposed in the first place so that industries would not be injured because of arrangements made under the trade diversion policy. As the Assistant Minister said, they were to remain in force only until the Tariff Board's reports were received. All of the matters concerned have been referred to the Tariff Board. The Tariff Board Act says that no action may be taken to change duties until a report has been received from the Tariff Board. Does the honorable member wish to debate each of these items, put them into law, and alter them next month? The honorable member for Swan moved his amendment in order to hasten Parliamentary consideration of tariff proposals. I admit that it causes some inconvenience to governments, but it also ensures that these proposals must be debated within a reasonable time. 1240 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - What is the record of the present Government in that respect? 1240 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - I shall remind the honorable member of the record of the Government which was in office when he was Speaker in this House. The different Ministers for Trade and Customs in the Scullin Government within a period of two years brought down no less than 30 tariff schedules, eleven cu*- toms, one export, four primage, three special duty, ten excise and one Canadian. Were they debated in this Parliament? The Scullin Government tried to have them debated and had such an unhappy experience that only two out of 30 were ratified, the rest being validated when that Government was turned out of office and went to the country. I have been Minister for Trade and Customs for nearly six years and I have brought down numerous schedules, every one of which, after discussion, has been passed into law. This schedule is to operate only for a few months and after the expiration of that period a new schedule will be brought down and debated. If it be found that these duties suffice the House will then have an opportunity to pass them into law. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time and reported from committee without amendment or debate; report adopted. Bill - by leave - read a third time. 1240 bill Message recommending appropriation reported. In committee (Consideration of Governor-General's message) : Motion (by Mr. Archie Cameron.) agreed to - That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an Act relating to the marketing of apples and pears. Resolution reported and - by leave - adopted. In committee: Consideration resumed from the 20th October {vide page 1029). Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3 (Definitions). 1240 KEM Flinders 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, James Mr FAIRBAIRN .- I move - That after the definition of " approved growers organizations" the following definition be inserted: - " ' grower ' in relation to a poll of growers taken for the purpose of this Act, means the occupier of an orchard from which at least two hundred and fifty bushels of applet; or pears were exported in each of at least two of the three years preceding the taking of the poll in relation to which the expression is used; ". This definition I have taken from previous legislation introduced by the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson), but I have altered it slightly. That proposal related to a grower who had exported 250 bushels of apples or pears in each of the three preceding years. My proposal relates to two at least of the three preceding years so that, should a grower lose his crop on account of some disaster, and be unable to export in one year - quite a common occurrence - he would not thereby be precluded from having a vote in any poll that was taken. I intend later to move an amendment providing for the taking of a poll, and if that be agreed to this definition will be necessary. 1241 JTY Barker CP 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON . - I suggest that, if the honorable member proposes to move for the insertion of a provision for the taking of a poll of growers, it might be as well to state the franchise under which the poll is to be 1241 KEM Flinders 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, James Mr FAIRBAIRN .- [ am prepared to meet the Minister in any reasonable way. I have been informed that this is where the definition should be inserted. From conversations I have had with the honorable gentleman I understand that, if this be introduced, the result will be that a grower, wherever referred to in the act, will have to come under the definition - which might well have embarrassments. I can see the Minister's point, but I should like an undertaking from him that if the amendment which I propose to move is agreed to he will provide an opportunity for the insertion of a definition of this sort. 1241 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - I give that undertaking. Amendment - by leave - withdrawn. Clause agreed to. Clause 4 - (1.) For the purposes of this act. there shall be an Australian Apple and Pear Board. (5.) Any member appointed to represent the growers in a State shall be selected from a panel submitted by the approved growers' organizations in that State. (12.) On the occurrence of any vacancy in the membership of the board by reason of the death, resignation or removal from office of any member, the Governor-General may appoint a person to fill the vacancy, and any person so appointed (other than the Government representative) shall hold office for the residue of the term of the member whose place became vacant: Provided that, where the member whose place became vacant was selected from a panel submitted by the approved growers' organizations in any State, the person appointed to fill the vacancy shall, subject to sub-section (9.) of this section, be selected from such a panel. 1241 JTY Barker CP 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON . - I propose to move - That the words " such a panel ", sub-clause (12), be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words, " a panel submitted for the purpose in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section." On account of a panel being of considerable age, it might be necessary for arrangements to be made for the submission of a new panel in the event of a vacancy occurring on the board. The only remaining person on the panel might represent an organization which already had representation, and the effect of the operation of the clause in its present form might be to disfranchise for the time being a very deserving body of growers. 1241 KEM Flinders 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, James Mr FAIRBAIRN .- I have a prior amendment. I move - That the words " from a panel submitted by the approved growers' organizations in that State." sub-clause (5).be omitted, with a view to insert in lien thereof the words "by a poll of apple and pear growers in that State ". I am particularly keen to have this alteration made, because I feel that in the setting up of a board for the control of the export of a product by an industry the correct procedure is for the organization of the industry to approach the Government with a definite proposal in relation to the board, and for the Government then to introduce legislation constituting that, board with statutory powers. In this case, not through any fault of the Minister but due, I think, to a certain degree of disorganization, this proposal did not come from the industry. In Victoria, owing to a faction fight which existed at the time, the only organization with which the Minister was able to get in touch, or which was recommended to him by the Minister for Agriculture in that State as being the authoritative organization, was considered by a very large number of growers as not representative of the industry. I have no wish to criticize that particular organization. I have seen a good deal of the work that it has done, and know that it has done very good work indeed; but it was felt that the board was not truly representative of the growers. Shortly after the introduction of this legislation, a poll was taken of the 400 members of that particular organization, and those who considered that the previous board was not representative were elected to the new board, indicating that there was some real substance in the feeling that the board to. which the Minister originally put his proposal did not atthat time have the complete confidence of the industry. I feel that if this legislation is to be successful, it is essential thatthose engaged intheindustry shall consider that their representatives on the boardhavebeen in actual fact elected by the growers themselves." I know it is very easy to say that there are definite virtues in submitting a panel and allowing a man of the Minister's abilitytoselect those who,in his opinion, are the most efficient. I have no doubt whateverin my own mind of-the ability of the Minister, given a reasonable panel, to select very adequate representatives. It is not of what may happen, but of the principle, that I am afraid. I agree that there may be something in the argument that,given a panel, the Minister might select more adequate representatives than in certain, circumstances the growers themselves might elect. I point out, however, that the same argument may be used in respect of Parliament itself. You, Mr. Temporary Chairman (Mr.Collins), may well think: that if you were given the task of selecting members of this Parliament, you might materially improve its personnel. I am sure that, if the Minister were given the right to select a parliament from the people, of Australia, his selection would be an excellent one: but, great as is my confidence in him, I should not suggest that he be given that power. I do not think that any member of this Parliament would suggest that the Minister, or any individual in Australia, should have the right to select a parliament from a panel. I believe that Signor Mussolini performs that task with some degree of success. I have heard it said that the Fascist Council which he selects is a much more efficient body than was the old Italian Parliament. But we in Australia still consider that we are capable of electing suitable representatives to this legislature. That is how the growers feel in this matter; they want to have the right to select their own representatives, and I regard their claim as a reasonable one. My support of this measure was conditional on that right being given to the growers. In the circumstances, I am not prepared to compromise on this point, although I am willing to meet the Minister as far as possible, because I appreciate' the very great efforts he made, before introducing the bill, to ascertain the views of the whole of the growers in every State. Every honorable member who has spokenhas testified to his efforts. But, nevertheless, if the bill is to have thereal confidence of those who are engaged in the industry, he must, in my opinion, grant to the growers the right to select their own representatives. 1242 JXL Franklin 0 0 FROST, Charles Mr FROST .- I support the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn), and trust that the Minister will accept it. I agree that the growers will wish to know who are to represent their industry. I would not support the proposal if it related to growers who produce only for the local market. 1242 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - Why should not the local growers be represented? 1242 JXL 0 0 FROST, Charles Mr FROST - This bill deals with the export of apples and pears, so why should the growers who sell their products on the local market have any say in the appointment of a body to control the export industry? In my opinion, it is wrong to place upon the Minister the responsibility of selecting the members of the board. It is provided in the bill that Tasmania shall have four representatives on the board, and the growers in that State are to submit a panel of eight names from which the Minister will make a selection. Western Australia is to have two representations who will be chosen from a panel of four. The same applies to Victoria, while South Australia and New South Wales are each to have one representative, and the growers in each of those States will submit a panel of two. It would be much better, I believe, if the growers were to choose their own representatives by ballot. According to the present proposal, the Minister will make the final choice, and he may not select the' best men'. He will not know them as well as 'will' the growers among whom they have lived all their lives. The Minister will probably' have to accept the advice of the Ministers for Agriculture in the various States. It would be easier and more satisfactory if the growers were allowed to select their own representatives. In Tasmania, where the industry is highly organized, the growers at present select their own representatives on the State board,and they are quite satisfied with the way the system works. It is the same principle as is applied in electingrepresentatives to Parliament. The people choose the men they want, and, in the same way, the fruit-growers should be allowedto choosethose whomthey think are best able to advance their interests. I am in favour of the amendment. 1243 KXT Gippsland 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr PATERSON .- I support the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn), and I endorse the remarksof the honorable member who is representing the Opposition (Mr. Frost) in this matter. It is not proposed to take a poll to decide whether this organization shall come into existence. That being so,I thinkit is at leastdesirable that a poll should be taken to determine the membership of the board.I agree with the honor able member for Flinders that, if that weredone, thegrowers would have more confidence in the board. They would feel that the members of the board reallywere their representatives. I know that there may be some difficulties in the way of obtaining a list of growers, but it has been done in the past, and if the difficulties have been surmounted inthepast, they can be overcome in the future. 1243 JNX Bass 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD .- I find myself to some extent in disagreement with my colleague from Tasmania,the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. Frost), in regard to this clause, and I do not agreewith what has been said by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn), or the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson); It would require time to take apoll of growers for the election of a board, and this would delay the coming into operation of the act. The proposal in the bill to select the board from a panel nominated by the growers seems to me to meet all difficulties. The honorable member for Gippsland said that the growers wanted to elect their own representatives, but they will be virtually electing their own representatives if they nominate a panel from which the final selection is made by the Minister. That is undoubtedly the best way to constitute the board in the first instance. After the scheme has been in operation for some time, the system might be varied; and the members of the boardappointed by election. The proposal of the Government regarding the appointment of the board is much the same as the system by which the workers' delegate is appointedto the International Labour Conference inGeneva. He is selected by the Government from a panel nominated by the trade unions in the various States. I am fortified in my opinion by the suggestion of the growers' organizations themselves. The Fruit Board of Tasmania suggests that the growers' representatives onthe federal board be elected by a vote, of members of the principal organizations of growers. Failing that, they suggest that the growers' representatives shall elect the members of the federal board. , It seems to me that the difference between what is proposed in the bill, andwhat is suggested by the Fruit Board in Tasmania, is so slight as not to be worth consideration. I am convinced that the proposal in the bill will prove satisfactory, and therefore I support the clause as it. stands. 1243 KZF Barton 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE .-I desire to point out to the members of this Parliament, and to Australia generally, that there is another party to this arrangement besidesthe growers. There is the public. We should not make this board too restricted in its representation. Even the two representatives from Tasmania who have spoken on the bill cannot agree as to how the board should be constituted. The amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn) is all right asfar as it goes, but this Parliament ought to take into consideration the fact that the consumers are also interested. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - But the consumers are in Great Britain. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE -This arrangement will not work any better than did the Paterson butter scheme, under which the worst butter was sold in Australia at the highest price, and the best butter sent overseas. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - That is all nonsense. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE -It is not nonsense, as the consumers in Australia know, because they had to eat the butter. 1244 10000 0 0 COLLINS, Thomas The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Collins - The clause under discussion has to do with the constitution of the board. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - Other boards representing primary industries have been formed, and have failed to give the best results as far as the consumers are concerned. If I am able to show that this proposed board will be no more successful, I am entitled, as a representative of the consumers, to suggest that the board should be constituted in such a way as to guard the people of Australia from exploitation, 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - But they are not affected. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I am aware that the honorable member for Gippsland has never given any consideration to the consumers. All that he has ever thought of is to get the highest price for products of the poorest quality sold in the home market, and to send the best of the stuff abroad. 1244 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member to confine his remarks to the constitution of the board. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The proposed constitution of the board is wrong. In the first place, it is proposed that it shall consist of one person nominated by the Commonwealth Government, four members to represent the growers of apples and pears in Tasmania, two representatives of the growers in Victoria, two more from Western Australia, and one from each of South Australia and New South Wales. I point out that New South Wales, which has the largest population of any State in Australia, is to have only one representative. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - But New South Wales is the smallest exporter. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - It is the largest consumer. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - That has nothing to do with this bill. 1244 JVR 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr Nairn - I rise to a point of order. The amendment before the Chair has nothing to do with the representation of the States on the board. The point raised by the amendment is whether the board shall be appointed by the Minister from a panel nominated by the growers, or whether it shall be elected directly by the growers. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - Clause 4 has not yet been passed, and I submit that I am entitled to discuss all matters pertaining to the constitution of the board. I submit that I am entitled to discuss the whole of the clause as well as the amendment. I am surprised that the honorable member for Perth, who is a lawyer and sometimes occupies the Chair, should take such a point. 1244 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - The honorable member may proceed. 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I point out to honorable members what many of them have probably not noticed previously, namely, that the bill provides for a representation of the growers on the following basis : - New South Wales, one ; Queensland, one : South Australia, one; Western Australia, two; Victoria, two, and Tasmania, four. The representation of exporters is : Victoria and South Australia, one; Western Australia, one, and Tasmania, one. Queensland and New South Wales have no representatives of the exporters at all. Why should Tasmania have such an overwhelming preponderance of representation on this board ? The honorable gentlemen who represent Tasmanian constituencies in this Parliament are the biggest squealers in it. Their attitude is that if they cannot sell their potatoes on the mainland and if they cannot have a board that will do what Tasmania wants it to do, the mainland is at fault. I shall move an amendment which will give the consumers in each of the States representation on the proposed board. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - Ridiculous ! 1244 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - It would be ridiculous to the honorable gentleman who foisted on this country the Paterson butter scheme. 1244 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - This is an export board and to have the consumers represented they would have to be brought from England. 1245 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The representatives of the consumers would be able to prevent the best apples and pears from being sent abroad and the inferior from being sold to the Australian public. The Labour party, I am sure, will support me in this. This board is designed to supervise the export of apples and pears and if it decides that the best shall be sent abroad and the worst kept in Australia, there will be no representative of the consumers in Australia to protect their interests, unless the board's constitution is altered. That is the injustice of a bill which seeks to set up a board whose sole purpose will be to suit the needs of Tasmania, Victoria and, in some measure, Western Australia. The interests of the larger States are being subjugated to those of the smaller States. I concede that Victoria in point of population is large, but in point of size it is small. It is merely a chip off New South Wales. I impress upon Tasmania that although the bulk of the apples and pears grown in New South Wales are sold locally, the market in New South Wales still provides an important outlet for the apples and pears from Tasmania. The population of Sydney alone is 1,350,000. Offhand I do not know what the population of Tasmania is, but I know that it is exceedingly small compared with that of New South Wales. New South Wales, therefore, should not be represented merely by one person while Tasmania is represented by five. Moreover, the interests of consumers must be protected, and for that reason I impress upon the Ministry the necessity for giving them direct representation on the proposed board. Another aspect of this bill that worries me is the fact that the Assistant Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) has Hitler-like powers in selecting the personnel of the proposed board. I can see how it happened. The producers in Tasmania had a good talk to him and agreed to leave the choice of the personnel in his hands so long as he gave them a larger number of representatives than is to be given to any other State. I am surprised that the Assistant Minister should take upon himself the responsibility for selecting the personnel because, if the board is to be worth anything at all as the representatives of the growers, -the growers themselves should be the people to choose who should be their representatives. My surprise, however, is not so great as it would be if any other Minister were concerned, because the Assistant Minister has glorified himself. He feels that no other man can guide the marketing destinies of Australia. This bill gives satisfaction only to those persons who are interested in obtaining the highest prices and the widest market, and who have no concern for the health of the Australian community. Whatever the honorable member for Gippsland may say, it is a fact that, if the bill is passed in its present shape or as proposed by the honorable member for Flinders, the best apples and pears will be carefully selected and packed and sent to London, and the inferior ones will be left for disposal in the home market. The honorable member for Gippsland knows that that is true, because he inflicted upon Australia for years a board which sent away the best of our butter and forced the Australian people to pay enhanced prices for an inferior product. I do riot doubt that the proposed apple and pear board will be any different from the butter board. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! I ask the honorable member for Barton to confine his remarks to the construction of the board proposed under this bill. The butter board or any other board has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. 1245 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - I submit that it is only by comparison with other boards that I can show the usefulness of the board proposed under this bill. I can cite many boards which have been set up as the alleged representatives of the producers which, if the authorities were game enough to take a referendum of the producers, would pass into limbo. It is a known fact that if the Government had the courage to take a poll of the growers in the apple and pear industry they would have nothing to do with this scheme. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! The honorable member's time has expired. 1245 KYC Ballaarat 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD .- It is .regrettable that we should have to listen to a display of ignorance from, the honorable .member: for Barton (Mr. Lane).. .It. is regrettable also that the honorable, member for Barton was not present when the Assistant Minister. :for Commerce. (Mr.. Archie Cameron:) introduced this bill, which vitally affects the interests of a hard-working section of the primary producers. In his second-reading speech, the . Assistant Minister indicated to the House the portents of the measure and the reason for its introduction, , its effect upon primary production and upon the export market, and, incidentally, its effect upon the consumers for whom the honorable member for Barton appears to be so concerned. The honorable .member shed crocodile tears about the necessity for the growers to be given the right to elect the proposed board, but he knows full well that the work that the board will do justly, equitably and fairly is now being done in a . voluntary fashion, though not so efficiently and effectively as it will be done by the new board. If the honorable member had taken sufficient interest in this measure he would have discovered for himself that to a great degree the apple and pear industry has regulated its own exports and. that this bill becomes necessary because certain organizations and other interested parties, including certain growers, have been breaking away from the voluntary organization in order to reap additional profits to the disadvantage of those who have remained in it. 1246 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) is making^ a second-reading speech and is not dealing with the constitution of the proposed board. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member for Ballarat is quite in order. 1246 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I impress upon honorable members that this ' measure does not propose that control should be taken of the produce of the growers. Consequently the claim for the growers to elect their own representatives is not so strong as it otherwise would be. The board will allocate export quotas, and every apple and pear grower in Australia who desires to export will be able to export. The Commerce Department itself could do the -job. . In these . circumstances, . the claim that a, poll should be taken. of .the growers,is,.not so strong as it . would be if a boar.d .were being set. up to take full control pf the .produce .in, order to. buy, sell,, ship , and speculate in the market. I .concede that, it is democratic to take a poll,,, but I point out to the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn) that at least in some of the States the. apple and pear .growers are badly organized ; there is even multiplicity of organization and, , according to the Assistant Minister, the situation is rapidly arising in the markets of the world under which the facilities which exist to-day for us to rid ourselves of surplus production are diminishing. In these circumstances I submit that there is a strong case for the committee to pass the bill as it stands and not to press for a poll of the growers which would waste valuable time and prove costly. I am satisfied that if a poll were decided upon, internal dissention would arise among the growers. If a man with five acres of apples for export were given one vote, a man with ten acres might want two votes, a man with fifteen acres three votes, and bo on. I hope that the Minister will not accept the amendment. I even hope that the honorable member for Flinders will agree to withdraw it. 1246 JWT Moreton 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS .- I support the amendment. The apple and pear industry of Australia has Seen in difficulties for a long while. The purpose of this bill is to try to solve at least some of its difficulties by making effective arrangements to dispose of a considerable quantity of Australian apples and pears in Great Britain. The proposed' board is to have statutory authority. 1246 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - How does the honorable gentleman suggest that the register of voters could be prepared? 1246 KEM 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, James Mr Fairbairn - The Department of Commerce already has a register of all apple and pear growers. 1246 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - The background to this whole subject suggests to .me the wisdom, of providing that the growers shall elect their own representatives, on the board. During the regime of the Bruce-Page Government a hill very similar to this was introduced into Parliament, but the. poll of growers, which was. necessary to determine whether the proposed board should be established, yielded a negative result. As the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Paterson) was ' Minister for Markets at that, time, he could, probably tell us a good deal about the .subject. On this occasion we have decided .that a board shall be established. In, these circumstances I. think it .is highly desirable, in the interests. pf harmony among the growers, that they shall at least be given . the .right to elec.t . their own representatives. It is quite true that the Government has had the benefit of the advice of representatives of growers' organizations in connexion with this matter, but it is nevertheless desirable, in my opinion, that a poll shall be taken of all growers for the election of the first board. 1247 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley - Is it not a fact that the growers already have a voluntary organization, and that the purpose of this measure is to establish a statutory body? 1247 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - That is true ; but we want the new board to begin operations under the happiest possible auspices. As the Bruce-Page Government's proposal to establish a board of this kind was negatived years ago, the growers should themselves elect the board now proposed to be set up. I believe strongly in the orderly marketing of primary products, and I advise the growers to support this board ; but I shall, nevertheless, vote for the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders. I believe that the principle is democratic and will give the growers an opportunity to indicate whether or not they approve of the proposed organization. 1247 KIX Deakin 0 0 HUTCHINSON, William Mr HUTCHINSON .- This bill has evolved from the Australian Agricultural Council. So far as I am aware, no very strong demand has been made by the apple and pear growers for the setting up of such an organization. As the growers feel that they have not been fully consulted in regard to this matter, we should at this stage at least do everything possible to meet their wishes. Otherwise the board is likely to encounter suspicion, if not a measure of active hostility. I am well aware that farmers have through the Apple and Pear Council agreed, in principle, to the regulation and -control of the export of apples and pears, but certain provisions of this bill have not been- given unanimous support by those most deeply concerned, mainly, I ad mi tj because .it has -not been fully understood. If we can do anything to prevent the development of opposition to the board we should do it. . ii. we. give the growers the right to elect the members of the.-board, we shall forestall a good deal of antagonism. The apple and pear industry, .like many , other primary , industries, has a good many organizations connected with it, and, these do not , all see eye to eye with one another. Many of the members of -ona organization are, I know, definitely opposed to this bill, and. many grower* feel that the proposed board is being foisted upon them. As the establishment of boards. of this kind by act of Parliament to regulate the marketing of primary products has in the past been determined by a poll of producers, and as Parliament has thought fit in its wisdom- to create this board without reference to producers, I can see no reason why a poll of growers should not be taken on this occasion to elect the members of the board. If the* is done the growers will undoubtedly feel that they have control of their own industry. It would be .wise for the members to accept the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders. It has been suggested that some delay may be occasioned in the appointment of the board if the amendment be accepted, but I do not think that that need necessarily be so. The board will not be able to operate until the 1939 season and, as the machinery for the taking of polls of this kind is already established, a poll could be quickly taken, and it need not be expensive. The growers should be gives the right to choose their own representatives, and I believe that if this concession is made to them the board will have a much greater chance to act with the unanimous' support of the producers. 1247 K4X Riverina 0 0 NOCK, Horace Mr NOCK .- During the second-reading of the debate I brought under the notice of the Assistant Minister (Mr. Archie Cameron) a request from the exporters of apples and pears in New South Wales that they should be given a representative on the board as well as the producers in that State. I understood the Assistant Minister to say that he would give consideration to the request. I hope that he will let us know without delay whether he can grant it or whether there is any real justification for refusing it. Mr. PROWSE (Forrest) [9.41"|.Democratic principles are, in my opinion, preserved in the bill as it stands, for it is provided that the members of the board appointed by the Government to represent the growers shall be selected from a panel submitted to the Government by approved growers' organizations in each State. The amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn) seeks to disregard the growers' organizations and to go back to the individual growers. That seems to me to be a roundabout way to elect the board. It is surely not unreasonable to allow the growers' organizations to nominate a panel from which the Minister may make a selection. No injustice will be done to any one if that course is followed. The work of the board will be principally to deal with export quotas and the like, and every endeavour will undoubtedly be made to deal justly by growers in all parts of the Commonwealth. I shall oppose the amendment. 1248 K6Q Wide Bay [9.43]. - The principle underlying the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr BERNARD CORSER is far more democratic than that underlying the clause in the bill. Wo should be prepared to allow the growers to determine by ballot who shall represent them on this board. Why should the Minister be given the power to appoint the growers' representatives ? Surely no one will deny that the growers are entitled to control their own business. The honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) seems to think that appointment from a panel is satisfactory. I disagree with him. I direct attention to the fact that subclause (6) of Clause 4 provides that the names of the persons in the panel submitted to the Minister shall be approved by the Minister administering the Department of Agriculture of the State concerned. Why should State Ministers for Agriculture be given the right to approve of panels in this way? 1248 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - Why is the honorable member torpedoeing his own Minister? 1248 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr BERNARD CORSER - So long as I obtain justice for the growers, and adherence to democratic principles, 1 do not care who is torpedoed. The apple and pear growers are entitled to control their own business. Some years ago, under legislation passed by this Parliament, butter producers in all the States were given an opportunity to vote for representatives on the board dealing with their industry. Under the clause as it stands growers are to be asked to select a panel but a State Minister for Agriculture, who has really nothing whatever to do with the matter, may veto their selection if he does not approve of it. The Government should give apple and pear growers the right to select their own representatives and manage their own business. Therewould be strong objection to any legislative proposal dealing with workers' wages, or the control of unions, if i t contained a provision similar to that now before the committee. I hope that the reasonable and democratic amendment submitted by the honorable member for Flinders will be carried. 1248 K2A Bendigo 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr RANKIN .- 1 support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn), but I see danger in insisting on a vote of the growers for appointments to the first board. In my opinion, it is essential that the board should be appointed as quickly as possible, and T suggest that the Minister and the honorable member for Flinders should confer with a view to reaching an agreement to select the board from a panel as provided >"n the bill, but that at the end of three years, when the industry is organized, the board should be elected by a poll of the growers. This, I believe, is a reasonable proposition, and one that would be acceptable to growers in every State. If time is occupied at this stage with an election of the board, there is a danger that this excellent bill will be delayed, and perhaps lost. Mr. ARCHIE CAMERON (Barker- Assistant Minister for Commerce) [9.49]. - There are several reasons why I cannot accept the amendment of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Fairbairn). The arrangements necessary for the introduction of the hill have been varied and complex. As I explained in my second-reading speech, the apple and pear industry is not in a very happy position. If an election is held for the constitution of the first board, the adoption of some sort of franchise will be necessary. I have visited every State of the Commonwealth except Queensland, and have made careful inquiries' on this subject. In Tasmania there is a wholly elective State Fruit Board, and the franchise, I understand, is on an acreage basis, one vote being given for every 3 acres of orchard* and additional votes for additional acres. 1249 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - That is not fair. 1249 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - I note that the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) thinks that that method is not fair. It may interest him to know that that system of plural voting was instituted by the State Labour Government. No doubt, the principle is one to which a large section of the committee, including the honorable member for East Sydney, would take strong objection if applied in this bill. I know that some growers, whose political opinions receive the endorsement of the honorable member for East Sydney, object to it. Other growers consider that the franchise should be on the export basis, as suggested by the honorable member for Flinders a little earlier in the discussion. Still other growers believe that the franchise should be on a production basis. This view finds support in some parts of New South Wales. 1249 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - That would be wrong for this hill. 1249 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - I agree that it would, but New South Wales growers approve of it, because they produce about 1,250,000 cases of apples yearly, and export only 60,000 or 70,000 cases. From the view point of other States, of course, a franchise on a production basis would be entirely unacceptable. We, therefore, say that in a bill of this description the growers themselves should decide what is a fair basis for the franchise for the whole of Australia. If they cannot agree on this matter, the bill provides for the submission to the Commonwealth Minister for Commerce of a panel of names from which the board is to be selected. There is nothing in the measure to prevent growers in every State from taking a poll on any franchise which they may approve for the selection of their representatives on the board. The conditions vary so much between the States, and even within the boundaries of some of the States themselves, that the committee would be well advised to allow the growers to settle this matter for themselves. 1249 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - The Minister is not allowing the growers to do that. He is settling it for them. 1249 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - The honorable member is wrong. Under the bill, growers in any State will be free to adopt whatever kind of franchise that suits them. All that the Government asks is that they shall submit their panel of names for selection. 1249 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser - The decision of the growers could be vetoed by a State Minister for Agriculture. 1249 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - That is a point which the Commonwealth Government is prepared to discuss with the various growers' organizations. It is not vital to the bill. There is a good deal in what the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) said about the difficulty in constituting the first board. I agree that if after three years' experience of the working of the act, the growers could agree with regard to the franchise, it would be unwise for this Parliament to take the responsibility for doing this. If honorable members are so inclined, I have no objection to reporting progress and discussing this aspect with the growers' organizations, but if the committee insists on putting into the bill something which I think is wrong, it will have to accept responsibility for its action. I assure honorable members that I have given much time and consideration to this question. I have heard arguments for and against various franchise proposals in every State, and I am unable to say what system would be acceptable to all growers. The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) has said much about the need for consumer representation on the proposed board. If I understood him aright, he said he intended to move an amendment to provide for consumer representation. Evidently the honorable gentleman has not read the bill. The consumer is not affected by it. 1250 KZF UAP 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr LANE - The consumer will be affected by it. 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - It is purely an export bill. 1250 KZF 0 0 LANE, Albert Mr Lane - I know it is, but there is nothing to prevent an exporter from retaining certain types of fruit for the home market. 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON -So long as I remain in charge of the Department of Commerce I shall prevent the export of poorer grades of fruit from Australia. The honorable member for Barton apparently does not appreciate the keen competition for fruit which exists in other parts of the world. Australian exporters to the United Kingdom market have to meet competition from low-priced fruit from the United States of America, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, and Argentina, as well as from some European countries. If we were not prepared to keep up the standard of fruit exported from Australia, there would be no need for a bill of this description, but there would be urgent need to consider some other form of assistance to growers. 1250 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - What interests does the Minister think he is safeguarding by insisting upon the panel system? 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - It is not a question of safeguarding interests, but of finding a workable method under which the board can be constituted, owing to the fact that there is no effective organization of this industry in a number of States. Tasmanian growers are organized on the acreage basis, and Western Australian growers on an entirely different basis. In South Australia, there is practically no organization, and in New South Wales very little. In the latter State, the distances between areas in which apples are grown - Armidale in the northand Batlow in the south - is so great that there is considerable variation of conditions. 1250 L1L 0 0 WILSON, Alexander Mr Wilson - It would take twelve months to get a Commonwealth-wide poll of exporters. 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - The Government has no record of exporters. In Victoria there are two major, and two, three, or four minor, organizations in the apple and pear industry. On several vital points these organizations are unable to agree. If there is no agreement within the borders of one State on a matter such as this, I submit that the committee will be undertaking a rather awkward job if it endeavours to arrive at a system of franchise acceptable to all growers from one end of Australia to the other. Min Francis. - What was the franchise adopted in legislation passed by the Bruce-Page Government? 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - I do not think that has any bearing on this issue. Circumstances then were altogether different. The market at that' time was an expanding one; to-day it is contracting. The honorable member for Riverina (Mr. Nock) raised the question of the representation of New South Wales, dealt with in sub-clause 1 of this clause. I have already told the committee that in the export of apples and pears New South Wales is of very little importance. Exports from that State in 1937 amounted only to 71,000 cases out of a total production of 1,250,000 cases. In Queensland the position is even worse. Exports last year amounted to only 15,000 cases. Tasmania, on the other hand, exported 2,500,000 cases, Western Australia 422,000 cases, Victoria 633,000 cases, and South Australia 224,000 cases. It will be seen, therefore, that exports from New South Wales and Queenslandconstitute only a very small proportion of Commonwealth total exports. 1250 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - The Minister is dealing with representation on the board. The question before the committee is the method of franchise. 1250 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - I was under the impression that I had dealt fully with the question of the franchise. Apparently I have not. The figures which I have just given in relation to exports supply the reasons why I have thought it unwise to agree to representations made for inclusion on the board of a shippers' representative from New South Wales. No request has been received from Queensland for the appointment, of a shippers' representative. 1251 KQ8 0 0 SCHOLFIELD, Thomas Mr Scholfield - The Assistant Minister has said that there is no organization in South Australia. How will a panel be appointed in that State? 1251 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - There is an organization in South Australia, but it is not an organization consisting solely of apple and pear growers. It is a fruit growers' and market gardeners' organization which includes apple and pear growers amongst its members. In the case of South Australia, that organization will have to be responsible for the nomination of representatives on the board. 1251 KEM Flinders 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, James Mr FAIRBAIRN .- I do not feel that this disagreement about the franchise is as great as the Assistant Minister for Commerce (Mr. Archie Cameron) seems to think. Although there is a difference of opinion as to whether there should be a democratic poll of the growers or not - and the honorable members for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) and Bass (Mr. Barnard) have definitely submitted the views of their constituents in regard to that matter - no honorable member, irrespective of what State he represents, has criticized the franchise proposed by me in the amendment which I subsequently withdrew. The honorable member for Ballarat made a spirited attempt to explain the real purposes of this bill to the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane). One of the reasons he advanced for the necessity for taking a poll - and I think it is held very strongly by many growers in my electorate also - was that there is a feeling that a certain section in the industry is wangling things for its own purposes. I have the word of a very influential man in my electorate who thinks that that is so. He says that certain shippers have exploited the industry very much for their own purposes, and he advances that as one of the reasons why this hoard should be set up. People who have advanced this theory to me have also suggested that these shippers have a very big influence in the existing Victorian Fruit Marketing Association. I am certainly not prepared to join in any such criticism of the Victorian Fruit Marketing Association Board, but there is that feeling that this wangling goes on and that the shippers' representatives have too much influence. That is why I think the growers should have the right to elect their own representatives on the board. Progress reported. 1251 adjournment 1251 1251 F4O Wilmot UAP Prime Minister 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr LYONS . - I move - That the House do now adjourn. I have to intimate to honorable members that this afternoon I received from the honorable the Postmaster-General (Senator A. J. McLachlan) the following letter: - On the notice-paper of the House of Representatives to-day, 1 find a question by Mr. George Lawson, making inquiries as to the companies of which I am* a director, and furthermore asking if the department of which I am at present in control enters into contracts with some of those companies. I have made no secret of the fact that I am a director and chairman of directors of the Hume Pipe Company of Australia Limited. The supply of materials for p'ost office requirements is arranged by inviting public tenders, which in addition to being advertised in the Commonwealth Gazette, are brought under the notice of firms from whom it has bean . customary to receive tenders. On receipt of tenders, the details are scheduled and analyzed from the point of view of determining those which will provide the most economical supply of the materials needed to meet the department's requirements. They are then examined by a tender board consisting of three of the most highly-placed officers of the department, who submit a recommendation, with the necessary details supporting their views to the Director-General. The Director-General reviews the basis of the recommendations and the extent of the orders to be placed, and issues the necessary instructions to the Chief Inspector of Stores, who then executes the contract with the successful tenderer. It is not the practice to bring these matters under the notice of the Postmaster-General excepting in unusual circumstances, such as, for instance, the placing of substantial orders with foreign firms. I have never been consulted in regard to the placing of contracts for pipes or ducts with firms with whom I may be associated or with any others, nor have I any departmental or personal knowledge of such contracts. Having regard to the suggestion underlying the question, that I may in some obscure way have influenced the department, I feel that one course only is open to me, and that is to tender my resignation as Postmaster-General. This I do with some reluctance at such a time, but the protection of my honour and the honour of the Government against any insinuation that underlies the question on the notice-paper leaves no other course open to me, and appears to be the one I should adopt under the circumstances. I shall carry on the business of the Senate and of the department until I hear from you. I beg to inform the House that I have recommended to His Excellency the Governor-General that the resignation be accepted. I have asked Senator A. J. McLachlan to continue in office until a recommendation concerning the appointment of a successor has been made to His Excellency. I take this opportunity to express my great regret, and also the regret of my colleagues, that Senator A. J. McLachlan has found it necessary to resign from the Government. I have informed him that I regard our association in the Federal Government with great pleasure,, and that I have valued his loyalty and efficiency as a colleague in the various offices he has held since he became a Minister of the Crown. I am greatly indebted to him for his willingness to carry on temporarily the business of the Senate and of the Postmaster-General's Department until I am in a position to make a recommendation to His Excellency the Governor-General, regarding the appointment of a successor. I may add further that I communicated with His Excellency the Governor-General to-night and that His Excellency has accepted the resignation of my colleague. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1252 papers The following papers were presented : - Air Force Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1938, No. 97. Air Navigation Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1938, No. 104. Canned Fruits Export Control Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1938, No. 101. Commonwealth Public Service Act - Appointments of N. Cook, D. G. Edward, F. Hartley, H. A. Jones, and L. A.' Perry, Department of the Interior. Commonwealth Shipping Act - Commonwealth Shipping Board - Cockatoo Island Dockyard - Balance-sheet and Liquidation Account, 28th February, 1938, with Auditor-General's certificates. Customs Act and Commerce (Trade Descriptions) Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1938, No. 102. Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1938, Nos. 96, 98. Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act - Statement for year 1937-38. Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired at - Darwin, Northern Territory - For Administration purposes. Miranda, New South Wales - For Postal purposes. Nauru - Ordinances of 1938 - No. 1 - Official Secrecy. No. 3 - Laws Repeal and Adopting. Northern Territory Acceptance Act and Northern Territory (Administration) Act- Ordinance No. 14 of 1938 - Jury. Aboriginals Ordinance - Regulations amended. 1252 22:10:00 House adjourned at 10.10 p.m. 1252 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 1252 1252 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde e asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Has his attention been drawn to the speech by the right honorable the Attorney-General and deputy leader of the United Australia party at the Constitutional Club in Sydney, on the 24th October, in which the Attorney-General is reported to have said: - "Leadership as inspiring as that in the dictatorship countries and with the wholehearted support of the people, was essential if the democracies were to maintain their place in the world."? Is that statement to be interpreted as an indication of the lack of leadership in the Federal Government to-day, a government of which the Prime Minister has been the leader for some years? Was the Attorney-General present at the Premiers Conference on the 2 1st October, and is he, not equally to blame for any lack of leadershi p shown ? 1252 F4O UAP 1 0 LYONS, Joseph Aloysius Mr Lyons - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows : - Yes. No. The Attorney-General was present. I am not aware of any lack of leadership at the conference. 1252 1252 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin n askedthe Treasurer, upon notice - Will he supply a statement showing the total amount of loan money requested by State governments for public works for the years 1932-33 to 1937-38 inclusive, and the amount allotted each year? Mr.Casey. - As this information is confidential to the Loan Council, I regret that I am unable to furnish the desired particulars. Exchange on Overseas Interest Payments. 1253 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr Curtin asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What has been the cost to Australia of exchange on government interest payments overseas for the year 1937-387 1253 JWE UAP 1 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey y. - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows: - The approximate cost of exchange on overseas interest payments for all Australian governments during 1937-38 was £5,150,000. 1253 1253 KF9 0 0 GREEN, Albert Mr Green n asked the Minister in charge of Territories, upon notice - What is the estimated total quantity of hoop pine, cedar and other marketable timber in the forests of the Bulolo Valley in New Guinea? 1253 DQC UAP 1 0 HUGHES, William Morris Mr Hughes - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows: - The Forest Officer of the New Guiuea Administration estimates that the Bulolo Val ley contains some 200,000,000 super feet of pine timber. Inquiry has been mode of the Administrator as to whether an estimate can be given of the quantity of cedar and other species of timber in the Bulolo Valley. Old-age Pensions. 1253 KRE 0 0 SHEEHAN, Thomas Mr Sheehan n asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Has the Government yet arrived at a decision in the matter of granting old-age pensions to naturalized natives of Palestine and Syria, as requested by the deputation which recently waited on the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer? 1253 JWE UAP 1 0 CASEY, Richard Mr Casey - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows : - A final decision has not yet been arrived at in regard to this matter. The honorable member will beadvised of the Government's decision as soon as it is determined. 1253 1253 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt t asked the Treasurer, upon notice - How much did each State receive from the sum of £200,000 provided by the Commonwealth Government last year for the technical training of unemployed youths? How much additional money did each State government provide for this purpose?. What amount has each State government spent during the financial year 1937-38 in providing technical training for unemployed youths? What additional amounts have they spent in this way since the 1st July, 1938? Mr.Casey. - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as, follows : - The £200,000 provided by the Commonwealth during 1937-38 was allocated as follows: - The States made provision in their estimates for the following amounts during 1937-38 additional to the Commonwealth grant: - Western Australia has not contributed up to the present. The amounts spent by the States from Commonwealth and State contributions towards the special schemes for the training and employment of youthsup to the 30th June, 1938, were as follows: - Expenditure since the 30th June, 1938, up to the respective dates shown,has been as follows: - In addition, capital expenditure totalling £13,204 was met by the Queensland Government up to the 31st August, 1938. Information as to the proportion of thissum incurred prior to the 30th June is not available. Some months of the past financial year had elapsed before the Commonwealth grant was made available to the States. This fact, am i also the fact that the establishment of schemes on a Bound basis necessarily occupied a certain amount of time, has resulted in the expenditure during 1037-38 being considerably less than the contributions provided by the Commonwealth and States. Advice has been received from the States that the schemes now iu operation and those contemplated will ensure that the funds available will be utilized to the full extent during the current financial year. The progress of the schemes and the results which have been achieved in each of the States to date are briefly summarized hereunder from letters received from the State governments: - New South Wales. The New South Wales scheme provides for employment in the first instance and technical training concurrent with employment. Up to the 20th August last, 1,310 youths hod been placed in employment in apprenticeship trades and callings requiring some period of training. Portion of the wages of these trainees is paid from the grant. Victoria. The State Government arranged for an extensive survey to be undertaken to ascertain the number of youths who required training and the occupation for which each was considered -most suitable. Owing to the preliminary work involved, the programme of training could not be commenced until March, 1038. At present approximately 660 youths are undergoing training and new classes are being formed rb rapidly as accommodation and machinery can be made available. Many of these trainees will shortly be placed in employment and portion of their wages paid until they become thoroughly efficient. While it has not been found possible to provide training for all applicants suitable employment has been found for approximately 1,000 youths since the inauguration of the movement. Queensland. Up to the 31st August, 311 lads had received or were receiving training - gome for commercial work, some for farming pursuits, and others in mining prospecting. Of these, 74 hod been found permanent employment as a result of the training received. South Australia. At the 4th August, 360 youths were receiving technical training. In addition, 30 youths, whose training had been completed, . had been placed in employment up to that dato. Allowances are -made to trainees for fares and maintenance. Western Australia. The Western Australian Government has under consideration recommendations which have recently been made by a royal commission which inquired into the whole question of youth employment. The Commonwealth grant was allocated by the Western Australian Government to meet capital expenditure associated with the provision of extra training facilities at the Kal- goorlie and Wiluna Schools of Mines, at the Perth Technical College, and at the Muresk Agricultural College. Tasmania. Applicants for assistance were interviewed and facilities arranged for them to receive technical training in order to fit each for the trade for which he is best suited. Up to tha 5th August last 63 of such applicants were receiving training. These trainees are paid an allowance for maintenance. Apart from those receiving training, approximately 200 applicants had been found employment up to the beginning of August.