1943-02-05 16 1 8 REPS 347 0 House of Representatives. 1943-02-05 Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. X. Nairn) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 347 Questions 347 347 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - Has the attention of the Minister for War Organization of Industry been directed to the report published in the Queensland press, that because the transport branch of his department elected to observe the Australia Day holiday this week, all production in Queensland was hampered because, although goods were produced, there was no possibility of having them transported? Can the honorable gentleman make a statement on the matter immediately? If not, will he institute an investigation forthwith, and make a statement early next week? 347 009FQ ALP 1 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The Minister for War Organization of Industry is absent, but I shall ask ham to make a statement next week. 347 Motion Motion (by Mr. Curtin) agreed to - That the House, at its rising, adjourn to Wednesday next, at 3 p.m. 347 Questions 347 Reports of Special Committee. 347 JVA 0 0 MORGAN, Charles Mr MORGAN - Will the Minister for Repatriation indicate when the reports of the special committee on repatriation will be available to honorable members? Although they were tabled last week, I was informed last night that they may not be available for a couple of weeks. Is such a lengthy period needed for the printing of them? Meanwhile, could not roneoed copies be distributed? 347 JXL ALP 1 0 FROST, Charles Mr FROST - Copies of the reports will be available on Tuesday or Wednesday next. That should be early enough, for the honorable member. It is impossible to have them distributed to-day. 347 347 JUQ ALP CLARK, Joseph James Mr CLARK Has the attention of the Treasurer been directed to advertisements of a political character that have been published in the press by various business firms? If so, can he say whether such firms will be allowed to deduct the cost of them when furnishing their income tax returns? 347 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - The Commissioner of Taxation, under the powers that are vested in him, may allow as a deduction from income tax what he regards as reasonable expenditure by a business enterprise. 347 Wages 347 KXY 0 0 PERKINS, John Mr PERKINS - I ask the Prime Minister what powers, if any, the Government has over the Allied Works Council. Will the right honorable gentleman inquire into the extravagant wages that are reputed to be paid to cooks, motor drivers, and others, in view of the effect that these must have on the finances of Australia? 347 009FQ ALP 1 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The Allied Works Council is working under a regulation, and issubject to the direction of the Minister for the Interior, but the Director-General of Allied Works Mr. Theodore, in common with the Director-General of Aircraft Construction and the Director of Munitions Production, has direct access to me on any matter which he considers important in relation to wages and conditions of labour. The Allied Works Council observes the industrial awards that have been made by the Arbitration Court, and the conditions prescribed in agreements. It is true that certain persons employed by it have earned what are described as high wages, but always as the result of the application of the provisions of an award. 347 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Sir Frederick Stewart - Why not pay our soldiers for the overtime that they work? 347 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - If the honorable gentleman wishes me to set aside industrial awards, I inform him that that is a separate issue. The Allied Works Council carries out only the provisions of awards. The instancesin which the rates of pay cited have been paid, have arisen from the excessive overtime that has been worked, and rates of pay which are prescribed by awards. 348 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - That was not the original intention of the Government when it constituted the Allied Works Council. 348 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - It was. I set up the council. The Government of which the honorable gentleman was a member had made no preparation for the urgent works which this Government had to undertake when it came into office. 348 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - I ask the Prime Minister whether or not the provisions of industrial awards relating to overtime were established under peacetime conditions, without direct relationship to war-time conditions. Is it not a fact that in the majority of instances the courts have made provision for the payment of overtime rates as a deterrent against and a penalty for the use of the labour of employees to an excessive degree beyond the normal working hours? Does not this apply particularly to the award governing the employment of workers on the waterfront? If the answer to those questions is in the affirmative, does not the right honorable gentleman consider it desirable, in view of the regular overtime now being worked throughout the Commonwealth in industries that are operating under war conditions, that there should be a review by the Government, or under the auspices of the court, of the general principles relating to overtime in war industries? 348 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The answer to the first series of what I may describe as affirmative interrogations which the honorable member has propounded is, I believe, in the affirmative. He puts these points, and then says "You cannot do other than say 'Yes' to those; therefore, so and so". Well, my answer to those is, "Yes". Although the honorable gentleman does not put it in this way, he really asks whether or not the Government considers that it should set aside the practice of the courts in assessing what rates shall be paid for overtime. 348 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT -I have asked whether the Government considers that there should be a review by it or under the auspices of the court. 348 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - The Government is quite ready to respect any variation of any award which the court may make at any time. I cannot conceive of any other way in which there could be adherence to the practice of an independent authority determining what shall be the rates of remuneration. I inform the honorable member for Eden-Monaro that I have personally examined the instances, to which he referred, of high wages having been paid. In one instance a cook earned, I believe, £26 in a week. He had two assistants, both of whom were absent from duty on account of sickness. In consequence, he worked 23 hours on one day and 20 hours on the following day, in order to do what would ordinarily have been done by three men. All that happened was that the rates prescribed were applied to the overtime that he worked. Wages can be regulated adequately and fairly only by the employment of arbitrational procedure. 348 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - Or by the appointment of a board similar to the Women's Employment Board. 348 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN - By the appointment of arbitrators or arbitrational authorities, where such authorities do not already exist, or have not existed. That is the attitude of the Government on the subject. 348 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - In view of the political propaganda which is being manufactured out of the earnings, under the industrial code, of some employees of the Allied Works Council, can the Prime Minister say whether there is a code or schedule of rates for the hiring of plant and equipment by that body? If so, will he table the schedule showing the rates paid by the Allied Works Council to friend's of members of the Opposition for their plant and equipment? 348 009FQ 0 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN -Generally, the Allied Works Council is answerable to the Minister for the Interior. I deal with matters of major policy in relation to war matters which the Director-General has to take in hand. I shall ascertain whether there is a schedule of charges in respect of the hiring of transport vehicles, with or without their drivers. As to that part of the honorable member's question which refers to plant and equipment belonging to friends of members of the Opposition, I am sure that the Director-General would have no knowledge of how any owner of a vehicle voted. 349 349 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - Has the Attorney-General seen in this morning's press the report that the High Court has given a decision dismissing certain appeals, which is tantamount to compelling the payment of rent for the use of Neon signs despite the fact that the brown-out restrictions prevent their use? If so, can he indicate what action he proposes to take in order to safeguard the victims of this imposition? Will he bring down a regulation for that purpose? 349 DTN ALP 1 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT -I have seen a short report of the case to which the honorable member has referred; it relates only to the position that exists between the hirer and supplier of Neon lights under the common law. The applicant for relief claimed that his contract had been frustrated by the impossibility of using the lights owing to the black-out or brown-out regulations, but it is twelve months since a regulation was made enabling any party to a contract that had been rendered difficult or impossible of performance owing to war conditions to apply to a court to have the contract reviewed and adjusted on the basis of fairness and equity. 349 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr Spender - Many applications in cases similar to this have been made. 349 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - As the honorable member has reminded me, many applications under those regulations have been made to the State courts by persons who had installed Neon lights. This particular case, however, refers to the position under the common law, which had been invoked by the parties affected. There is no necessity, in view of what I have said, for new regulations to be issued. 349 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr James - Thousands of others will be affected. 349 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - Any one of those thousands of others who desires to do so, may apply, under the Contracts Adjustment Regulations, to have the contract reviewed and adjusted. 349 JVA 0 0 MORGAN, Charles Mr Morgan - Have the regulations a retrospective effect? 349 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - When the regulations were made, they applied to all existing contracts in relation to Neon lights, and parties can still apply for relief. 349 349 KNC 0 0 MARWICK, Thomas Mr MARWICK - Will the Minister for Supply and Shipping have prepared and submitted to the House a statement showing what progress has been made in connexion with the investigations into the production of agar-agar which is a by-product of seaweed, and is used in the manufacture of canned meats? Further, will he see that reports of large deposits of such seaweed in Western Australia are investigated? 349 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I shall have a statement prepared and made available as soon as possible. 349 349 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - Several days ago I asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs whether he would have the file relating to the increased price of firewood in Tasmania laid on the table of the House. Has the Minister yet been able to make arrangements for that to be done? 349 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - All questions directed to me as the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs are immediately forwarded to my colleague for his attention. The Senate is not sitting this week, and that is probably the reason why the Minister for Trade and Customs has not been able to comply with the request of the honorable member. I shall take steps to have the matter attended to. 349 349 C7E 0 0 PAGE, Earle Sir EARLE PAGE - Can the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture say what steps the Government proposes to take to make up to dairy-farmers the difference between the amount already provided by the Government to assist the dairying industry, and the amounts recommended in the report of the special committee which inquired into the industry? 349 KQB ALP 1 0 SCULLY, William Mr SCULLY - The whole matter is under consideration. 350 JLZ 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr ANTHONY - In view of the fact that the expert committee which was appointed by the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture to inquire into conditions in the dairying industry reported in August last that certain steps were immediately necessary in order to restore production to reasonable levels, can the Minister say what steps he proposes to take to give effect to those recommendations, particularly in respect of prices? As the Minister has repeatedly stated that the whole matter is under consideration, can he say when a decision will be arrived at? 350 KQB 0 0 SCULLY, William Mr SCULLY - After considering the report of the expert committee, Cabinet decided to make available, as a subsidy to the dairying industry., the sum of £2,000,000 per annum. Later, persons engaged in dairying were given the right to approach the Commonwealth Prices Commissioner. Only yesterday, two leading authorities on dairying in Australia - Mr. Gordon of New South Wales and Mr. Howie of Victoria - called on me on their way to discuss with the Prices Commissioner matters affecting the dairying industry. 350 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - Some weeks ago the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture received a deputation from certain Gippsland branches of the Victorian Dairying Association regarding claims arising out of a diversion of Bacchus Marsh milk from Melbourne to Bacchus Marsh. Can the Minister now say what decision has been reached in the matter? 350 KQB 0 0 SCULLY, William Mr SCULLY - The matter is being investigated by my departmental officers, and, as soon as a decision has been reached, the honorable member will be apprised of it. 350 350 KMW 0 0 MARR, Charles Sir CHARLES MARR - Recently the Minister for Supply and Shipping was good enough to receive a deputation in connexion with the manufacture of milking machines which are urgently needed in the dairying industry, and he appeared to be favorably impressed by the representations made to him. Has he- given. the matter further consideration, and, if so, is he in a position to make a statement on the subject? 350 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - I was greatly impressed by the representations submitted to me by the deputation which the honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr) introduced. As a result, I directed that steps ba taken to have an inventory made showing the number of prime movers in the possession of the Army Department which might not be in actual use. I also directed that investigations be made in order that a higher priority should be given to the manufacture of prime movers, particularly in connexion with dairy-farming. That investigation has not yet been completed. Only yesterday my department was in communication with the secretary of the manufacturers, in order to obtain further details. I am desirous of assisting in this matter as much as possible, localise I consider that the case presented by the deputation was worthy of immediate a attention. 350 350 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - Can the Minister for Supply and Shipping say whether the supply of labour on the waterfront is coming forward at an even rate both at the day-time pick-up and for night work, or is it found that labour is difficult to obtain excepting at night and at week-ends when heavy penalty payment rates operate? 350 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - There has been some difficulty of the kind mentioned by the honorable member, but the position has improved during recent weeks. A scheme has been introduced with a view to obtaining a regular flow of labour according to the demand. In all ports with the exception of Sydney, that scheme is now in operation. Judge Piper, who is Chairman of the Stevedoring Commission, is now examining the application of the scheme to the port of Sydney, but finality lias not yet been reached. It is hoped by the Stevedoring Commission to obtain an even flow of labour right round the clock. 350 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Sir FREDERICK STEWART - Can the Minister for the Army inform the House how the Government proposes to deal with the substantial sum of money which is accruing as the result of the collection by it, from the Stevedoring Commission, of amounts in excess of those paid by the military authorities forwork done by Army personnel on the wharves? 351 F4U ALP 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - Yesterday, in reply to a question, I mentioned that officers of the Treasury and Army departments were considering this matter. I then indicated that, until consideration was given to the claims of soldiers in respect of pensions, repatriation, and other benefits, it could not be said whether the fund was in credit or in debit. Thehonorable member may rest assured that the matter will be given due consideration with a view to an equitable arrangement being arrived at. 351 351 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr ROSEVEAR - In view of the Prime Minister's statement on Tuesday of this week that last year the amount of money which passed through the totalisator and bookmakers in Australia was considered by him and his advisers to be detrimental to the war effort, can he say whether he or his advisers have been informed that the totalisator figures for the last two Saturdays at Randwick Race-course totalled £168,000, as against £79,000 for the last two Saturdays in January of last year, when there were no restrictions? 351 009FQ ALP 1 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN -I noticed a statement to that effect, but in comparing the figures, weather conditions and other circumstances should be taken into account. I am informed that over the whole period during which the restrictions have been in operation their effect has been what was desired by the Government. 351 Miscellaneous 351 009FQ ALP 1 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN by leave - I have been requested to repeat for the information of honorable members the arrangements proposed in respect of future sittings of the House. The House has already resolved to meet next week on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. It is proposed that in the following week the sitting days shall be Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. 351 Questions 351 Taxi Services in Hobart. 351 JOQ 0 0 BECK, Arthur Mr BECK -In view of the heavy increase of the cost ofliving and other costs, will the Minister for Supply and Shipping review the claims of taxi-drivers in Hobart and allow them sufficient petrol to earn at least the basic wage? 351 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - There is no need, I am sure, for me to stress the necessity to conserve petrol to the fullest degree possible. As honorable members know, priorities in connexion with the use of that commodity have been established. Taxi-drivers have been placed in a certain category, but I cannot give details offhand. I have tried to have taxi-drivers placed in a higher category in respect of producer-gas plants for their vehicles, as I thought that that might provide a way out of their difficulty. Many of them have been prevented from obtaining producer-gas plants because such plants were made available only to essential users, the authorities having in mind the need to keep on the road transport vehicles used for essential purposes. 351 JOQ 0 0 BECK, Arthur Mr Beck - Is there any reason why the taxi-drivers of Hobart should be allowed only 50 per cent. of the petrol allowed to taxi-drivers on the mainland? 351 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY - There should be no unfair discrimination between them. I shall have the matter examined, as I want to act fairly to all concerned. 351 351 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - Will the Minister for Post-War Reconstruction make a statement to the House within the next few weeks outlining the plans of his department in respect of the important work which has been entrusted to him? 351 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - I hope to give in clue course a general outline ofwhat it is proposed to doin connexion with postwar reconstruction, but, of course, without attempting to go into details at this stage. 351 Bill Second Reading Debate resumed from the 4th February (vide page 344), on motion by Mr. Curtin - That the bill be now read a second time. Upon which Mr. Archie Cameron had moved by way of amendment - That all words after "That" be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - "the Bill be withdrawn and redrafted to provide that any member of the Citizen Military Forces may be required to serve anywhere beyond the limits of Australia". 352 F4U Capricornia ALP Minister for the Army 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE . - The speeches made by honorable members opposite on this bill clearly indicate that they are endeavouring to exploit the measure for party political reasons. We heard from the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) yesterday a typically flippant and satirical speech. He gave us a delightful exhibition of oratorical gymnastics. His remarks were entertaining and destructive, but by no means constructive, and any one not having a knowledge of past history would have classed him as a heaven-sent statesman straining to rectify all anomalies. He set out to ridicule the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) ; but, despite that attack, all honorable members will admit that the right honorable member for Fremantle will be regarded by future historians as the most successful Prime Minister of this war period. His achievements will be in marked contrast to the negative and impotent policy of the Government led by the right honorable member for Kooyong. I remind that right honorable gentleman and other critics of the Prime Minister that, some of the most conservative newspapers in Australia impartially assessed the worth of the Menzies Government to this country in the war period. The Sydney Morning Herald, one of the most reliable conservative newspapers in Australia, said - The mass of electors would feel more confidence in Mr. Menzies as a leader, if they were convinced - and they by no means are convinced - that he means to .place national needs before party exigencies. The country is by no means satisfied that the Menzies' Government possesses either the vigour or efficiency which is needed to carry our war effort into top gear. For one thing, there lias been far too much wrangling and indecision within Cabinet itself. ... If the confidence of the country is to be securely held, the stamp of mediocrity upon the Ministry's general complexion and character must be removed. ... It has been a year of delays, a lack of policy, and of repeated shirking of responsibility. I ask honorable members to contrast that opinion with that expressed by the impartial General MacArthur, supreme commander of the allied forces in the Southwest Pacific Area. After a year of administration by the present Government, he said - No nation in the world is making a more supreme war effort than Australia. It is rapidly gearing to full capacity. Resources are relatively meagre, but it is utilizing them to the utmost. I consider that General MacArthur's opinion can be accepted, because nobody is more closely in touch with the war effort in this area, and there is no man whose responsibilities bring him more directly into contact with the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet. The Prime Minister has been criticized for having sought the approval of the organized Labour movement before submitting this, bill to Parliament, but I contend that he acted within his rights and showed courage and statesmanship. He was amply justified in the action he took. He took his political life in his hands, because he considered that the passage of this measure was necessary for the security of Australia. At a later date the Prime Minister saw his proposals carried at an interstate conference of the Australian Labour party by a two-to-one majority. Those proposals are now the policy of the party. There was no difference between the proposals which the right honorable gentleman put before the Federal Executive of the Labour party in November and those which he submitted to the Australian Labour conference in January, despite the view expressed yesterday by the right honorable member for Kooyong. The Prime Minister's proposals are entirely different from those put forward by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) last year. The Leader of the Opposition asked for total conscription for overseas service in any part of the world, and I opposed that. As Minister for the Army, I am convinced that the Prime Minister has gone far enough in this matter, and that there is no justification for unlimited conscription, as advocated by the Opposition. In consulting the Federal Executive of the Labour party, the Prime Minister did exactly -what would have been, done by the Leader of the Opposition, had he been in office and faced with a similar problem. The Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues know full well that when they were in office, they did not submit any important proposals to Parliament without the prior approval of the consultative council of the United Australia party. 353 F4T 0 0 FADDEN, Arthur William Mr Fadden - That is absolutely incorrect. 353 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I know what 1 am talking about. The members of that mysterious body are chosen by means known only to honorable members opposite, and it is significant that Sir Sydney Snow was seen within the precincts of this Parliament whenever any important legislation was being passed through this Parliament during the term of office of the previous Government. Honorable members should contrast the mysteriously appointed consultative council of the United Australia party with the democratically controlled Labour conferences, which give a fair cross-section of the views of the working people of Australia. The consultative council in its composition is the very antithesis of the Labour conferences. This bill authorizes the utilization of the services of members of the Citizen Military Forces in the South-western Pacific Zone, as outlined by the Prime Minister in the light of the following considerations : - The strategical set-up in the South-west Pacific Area; the objectives of global strategy in their particular relation to the South-west Pacific Area; the nature of the forces required for operations in the Pacific areas; the strength of the Australian naval, land and air forces available for commitments and for co-operation, not only in the South-west Pacific Area, but in other theatres as well; and Australia's manpower resources and the maximum forces they are capable of maintaining in the field, in tropical warfare. Another significant statement in the Prime Minister's speech must be borne in mind when determining whether the Government's proposals go far enough. The right honorable gentleman said - The primary aim of global strategy, as agreed upon by Mr. Churchill and President Roosevelt, is the defeat of Germany first, when the full resources of the United Nations will be concentrated on Japan. This, of course, imposes limitations on the additional forces that can be made available in the Pacific, the extent of offensive operations, and the regions in which our forces can operate. The proposals contained in the bill have been subject to criticism both from those who desire unlimited conscription for overseas service, and from those who object to employment of the Citizen Forces outside Australian territorial limits. I say without hesitation that either critics of this measure speak without full, knowledge of the facts upon which they base their arguments, or their opposition to the measure is actuated by the desire to make political propaganda out of the military necessities of the Commonwealth. In this connexion I draw attention to the despicable nature of some of the statements appearing in the press. Much of this matter conveys to the public an impression that if the Government's proposals, as set out in this bill, were carried into effect no Australian troops would be available for the rescue of our men who are now prisoners of war in Malaya. The honorable member for Darwin (Sir George Bell) made a similar statement yesterday afternoon. Such propaganda is false. Its authors know it to be false, for they are aware that the Australian Imperial Force, having fought in almost every theatre of war in which British troops have been engaged, was, and is still, in its rapidly increasing numbers, available for service in any part of the world in which its services may, in the opinion of the Government, be required. No limitation whatever is imposed. It is most unfair, and indeed despicable, to try to make the relatives of our prisoners of war in Malaya believe that, if this measure be passed into law in its present form, no Australian soldiers will be sent .to Malaya, if necessary, to rescue them. In their anxiety to defame this Government the authors of this propaganda are damaging the Allied war effort, and prejudicing the Commonwealth in the councils of our Allies. Such propaganda, moreover, must exert a depressing influence most damaging to the morale of those of our men unfortunate enough to have been taken prisoner, to whom it will assuredly be repeated by their Japanese1 captors'. I say plainly, and without equivocation, that the authors of such statements are mot doing1 a. service to their country. The fact is that the Australian Imperial Force always has been, and under this measure still will be, available for service anywhere in the world. Moreover1 - and this is a fact which I wash to impress upon all members of the House, and upon members of the Opposition in particular - the Australian Imperial Force to-day considerably exceeds in number the combined strength of the Australian Imperial Force and the Militia Forces on full-time duty at the time this Government came into office. The members of the Opposition, for purposes of political propaganda, attack this Government because it does not propose a full merger of the Australian Imperial Force and the Citizen Military Forces. I remind them that they were in office from September, 1939, until September, 1941, and during those two years they repeatedly pledged themselves not to introduce conscription for overseas service. They now attack this Government for not doing what they themselves would not do, and, in justification of their attack, they say that there was no danger of attack from Japan during their term of office. I ask the members of the Opposition, and particularly the right honorable member for Kooyong, three questions. The first is: Were they not aware of the danger of attack, from Japan when they were in office? The right honorable member for Kooyong said yesterday that no one but a child could have failed to foresee in 1939, that the world would be thrown into war. If it was so obvious surely it was clear to the then Government that Australia was in imminent danger of attack by Japan. The other two questions which I submit are: Did members of the Opposition not know that such attack, when, it came, would be launched without warning? Did they not know that, up to the time they went out of office, not one division in Australia was fully equipped to fighting standard ? If members of the Opposition cannot answer the first two of these questions in the affirmative they must confess to a lack of understanding of the grave danger which confronted this com- paratively defenceless country. It ill becomes the right honorable member for Kooyong to belittle the efforts of the Prime Minister, who has done more to organize Australia for a top-gear war effort than has any other mau in Australia. The answer to the third question was. I think, given at a secret meeting of Parliament by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender), then Minister for the Army, in September, 1941. It is not necessary for me to elaborate what he said. It is well known to all honorable members. In the early months of that year he had fully informed his Cabinet colleagues of the condition of the Array, and he had unsuccessfully endeavoured to shatter their somnolent complacency. Did they' do anything constructive and practical to improve the position? No, they quarrelled among themselves. They told Parliament that the country was making the maximum war effort, whereas in fact the country was 50 per cent, below its potential in regard to the personnel of the armed forces, and also in regard to equipment and munitions of war. The last government was tragically satisfied with its war effort, and Ministers resented any attempt to shake them out of their complacency. While Australia lay virtually defenceless, the last government did not then talk about merging the Australian Imperial Force and the Militia.. It did not even attempt to call up for training in the Militia all the men available^ or to speed up the manufacture of equipment. Instead of taking effective action to improve the defences of the country the men who now lead the Opposition babbled about Australia's IGO per cent, war effort, although they knew only too well that the man-power and productive resources of Australia were not being employed to more than 50 per cent, of their capacity, and they stil had for their slogan " Business as usual ". When the right honorable member for Kooyong returned from England, he made a series of fine speeches beginning at Auckland and carrying on in Sydney and1 later in this Parliament. Although he bacl been in office then for two years,, he made it evident in those speeches that he was only then beginning to think in terms of a 100. per cent. war effort. He told the people what, in his opinion, Australia's war effort should be. He made fine speeches, but his intentions were words only. The schemes which he outlined were never put into effect. It is true that he appointed certain men to high-sounding positions in his Cabinet. This was merely window-dressing. The outward show was good, but inwardly there was delay and further procrastination. He created some new portfolios, but the new machinery which he created remained inactive and ineffective until the advent of the Curtin Government. From the outbreak of the war members of the present Opposition have never ceased to stress the need for total war, by which they mean conscription for service in any part of the world. They were never prepared to do anything which might affect the privilegesor profits of their supporters outside Parliament. It is time that evidence of the complete incapacity of the Opposition to conduct the affairs of the country in time of war was revealed to the public. As I have said, the members of the last Government, instead of organizing Australia's defences, merely fought amongst themselves. We, as an opposition, did not defeat them. They quarrelled and split into warring fragments, because there was no effective leadership. In the present Government there is honest, courageous leadership and wholehearted co-operation with Mr. Curtin in the gigantic task with which he is confronted. I propose now to give to the House some particulars regarding the appalling position of Australia's defences when this Government took office. I have already said that Australian industry was then working at. only 50 per cent. of its present capacity of war production, and that the Army was less than half as strong in numbers as it is to-day. Here are some additional facts - There was not one modern fighter aero plane in the Commonwealth. You could count on one hand the number of tanks we had when the Menzies Government was in office. We now have hundreds of each of the best types of imported tanks and a growingnumber of Australian tanks as good as any yet produced in England or America. We had only about fifteen rounds of anti-tank ammunition per gun. We had less than one week's supply of field artillery ammunition for fight ing on a very moderate scale. We had only about 60 per cent. of the rifles required toequip our forces. We had only about 20 per cent. of the number of light automatic tommy guns required, and there was a very serious shortage of the machine guns we needed, with hopelessly inade quate supplies of spare parts. We had had in this country for many years a large number of . 310 calibre cadet rifles which this Government issued to the Volunteer Defenee Corps, but when we took office there was no ammunition whatever in Australia for them. One of the most urgent problems facing this country was the creation of reserves of petrol and fuel oil. During the whole of the two years that it was in office, the last Government stood idly by and watched our petrol reserves dwindling from week to week until, when this Government took office, they had reached a perilously low level. These are only a few examples which indicate the Opposition's complete incapacity to conduct the affairs of this nation in war-time. I cite them because each and every one of these deficiencies was occasioned by the sheer neglect of the government of the day to look into the future and provide the most elementary requirements of our defence forces. Had appropriate and energetic steps been taken by the Menzies Government upon the outbreak of wa r every one of these deficiencies could have been remedied before this Government took office.So much for the Opposition's preparations for the defence of Australia. I shall now give an example of their callous neglect of the Australian. Imperial Force. On pages 30, 31, 32 and33 of the book Active Service published at Christmas, 1941, and dealing with the Australian Imperial Force in the Middle East, an article on the retreat from Bengazi states - The Ninth Australian Division had moved into Cyrenaica with serious deficiencies in weapons and vehicles . . . By 19th March it was clear that at least the greater part of a German armoured division was in Tripoli. The prospect of one immobile and incompletely armed infantry brigade remaining opposite this force was disturbing, especially as only eight guns were supporting it. . . Orders were issued for withdrawal. . . No troopcarrying transport was controlled by the division, and the remainder of its troops were located in the Tobruk-Gazala area completely immobile. . . Cyrenaica had been left with a garrison insufficiently equipped to withstand the form of armoured counter-attack launched from Tripolitania. A risk had been taken and the penalty incurred. I have given only a few of the many examples of neglect which I could cite, but the knowledge of those should be sufficient to make the public resolve to keep the Opposition out of power for ever. The best thing that ever happened to Australia was the defeat of the Fadden Government and the appointment of the right honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Curtin) as Prime Minister. The drive and enthusiasm which He imported into Australia's war effort has made it possible for us to fashion the mightiestarmy that has ever been assembled in the southern hemisphere. The Government has been able, not only to ensure the security of Australia, hut also to place us in a position in which we can help our allies in the bold offensive that will be necessary in order to defeat the enemy. The Australian Imperial Force to-day is sufficiently well equipped to meet any enemy on equal terms, and the same can be said of the Citizen Military Forces. The whole Australian Army to-day - in Australia and abroad - is equipped as well as, and possibly better than, any enemy forces it may be called upon to encounter, and as a result the Commonwealth to-day is in a position incomparably stronger than when the Opposition was in office. In deciding the need for the measure now before the House, the Government was not concerned with whether or not the Australian Imperial Force and the Citizen Military Forces should be merged, nor did it consider whether or not the Militia should be kept on Australian soil. It took into consideration only one factor - the most effective use of the Australian Army in the prosecution of the war in 'the South-west Pacific. The Government came to the conclusion that that objective would be achieved by the adoption of the measure now presented to the House. I remind honorable members of this House that the overwhelming majority of the male population medically fit and available for service in the armed forces are already serving in those forces. Practically all the medically fit men not serving have been exempt from service by reason of their employment in reserved occupations. There are in addition some youths who have not yet reached military age. A large proportion of the men employed in reserved occupations have, in the past, desired to enlist in the fighting forces, but have been debarred from doing so by reason of the nature of their employment. Active measures are now in progress to release as many as possible of these men for military service, and there is every reason to believe that when released 'they, and the youths now coming of military 'age, will volunteer for the Australian Imperial Force as freely as have others of the male population. I shall now deal with the position of serving Army personnel. Security reasons prevent the disclosure of the number of the Citizen Military Forces personnel who have volunteered for the Australian Imperial Force, but I can now inform honorable members of this House - and I think the people should know it as well - that the number of Citizen Military Forces personnel who have, since June last, volnteered for the Australian Imperial Force is equal to the number of Citizen, Military Forces on full-time duty when this Government took office. I want to emphasize the important fact, not previously known to honorable members, that more than 70 per cent, of the men of Australia's fighting forces who are medically fit for combat service overseas have volunteered for such overseas service, and are available for use in the allied cause in any part of the world. That is a record of which Australia can be proud. There is every reason to believe that this percentage will be increased substantially, because applications for transfer from the Citizen Military Forces to the Australian Imperial Force and the Royal Australian Air Force have been coming in at a steady rate during the last six months or more and show no signs of diminishing. There was no sudden rush to transfer to the Australian Imperial Force when the Government's intention to introduce this bill was announced, nor is there any reason to expect a decline of the number of applications in the near future. Figures indicate that enlistments in, and transfers to, the Australian Imperial Force and the Royal Australian Air Force have maintained- a steady flow, with occasional fluctuations, from several months prior to this Government taking office up to the present time. Therefore, there is little doubt that this process will continue and that many militiamen who, for their own reasons, have not yet transferred to the Australian Imperial Force will do so in their own good time. The present monthly rate of transfers appears likely to continue, resulting in a steady increase of the percentage of our medically fit personnel volunteering for service in the Australian Imperial Force. I have already pointed out that the number of members of .the Citizen Military Forces who have volunteered for service in the Australian Imperial Force is equal to the entire strength of the Citizen Military Forces on full-time duty when this Government took office. A large proportion of those who have not yet transferred are men who have been called up in recent months and have family responsibilities to clear up before they can consider transferring to the Australian Imperial Force. In addition, a considerable proportion of those who have not yet volunteered consists of boys under twenty years of age whom many honorable members have been rightly anxious to keep out of the front line in New Guinea, but whom Opposition members, who formerly were so solicitous for their welfare, now appear to be anxious to send into the front line outside Australian territories, and outside the South-western Pacific Zone. I wish to make it perfectly clear that present members of the Citizen Military Forces are volunteering for the Australian Imperial Force as freely as did their predecessors and that there is a steady stream of transfers. It is important that Australia and the world at large should realize that more than 70 per cent, of the members of Australia's fighting forces who are medically fit have volunteered already for service anywhere in the world, and that more are volunteering every week. Can any other country claim such a record of voluntary enlistments? These figures show how baseless is the charge that our soldiers cannot be sent to Malaya to rescue Australian prisoners of war there. Not only have the majority of them volunteered for world-wide service, but also it is almost certain that during this war most of them will be required to serve beyond the area defined in this measure should the strategic considerations require such action. They are available for service wherever considered necessary by the Government on the recommendation of its military advisers. I have no doubt that with the steady flow of transfers from the Citizen Military Forces, the release of more men from reserved occupations, and the call-up of youths attaining military age, the percentage of our medically fit man-power serving with the Australian Imperial Force will be maintained, or even increased substantially. There is every reason to believe that new recruits will volunteer for the Australian Imperial Force as freely as their predecessors have done. I say deliberately that no other allied country, with the .possible exception of New Zealand, will send so large a proportion of its medically fit and available manpower to fight outside its own territories. It would be a physical impossibility for the United States of America to do so because the facilities are not and never will be available to transport 70 per cent, of America's medically fit fighting men beyond American territorial limits. Honorable members will know or can ascertain easily, the approximate number of men that would be involved in such a move. The impossibility of the task of providing transport is obvious. The United Kingdom is in a slightly different position. Alone, its transport problem would not be so great as that of the United States of America, but considered in conjunction with the requirements of its allies, it appears most improbable that Great Britain would be able to send 70 per cent, of its medically fit fighting personnel outside the United Kingdom, even if there were no necessity to retain a large force to meet a possible invasion. Britain will be compelled to maintain that defensive force until Germany is so badly smashed that it is beyond the power of that nation to attempt an invasion, of the United Kingdom, and by that time the war will virtually have been won. It is suggested frequently that the existence of the Australian Imperial Force and the Citizen Military Forces as separate forces impairs the efficiency of our Army as a whole. I deny emphatically that that is so, and I take this opportunity to emphasize that within the South-western Pacific Zone we have one army under one control. General MacArthur is Commander-in-Chief, South-west Pacific Area, and General Blainey commands the Allied land forces in that area. His army is one army, including the Australian Imperial Force, the Citizen Military Forces, and the United States Forces. The efficiency of this composite army is impaired in no way by the inclusion of any of the units of which it is composed, and any one who suggests that that is not so is actuated only by party political considerations. To-day Australia is more exposed to attack than any other part of the Empire. 358 JLL 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr Abbott - Rubbish ! 358 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I believe that to be so. We are in constant danger of attack, and any person who underestimates the Japanese is doing a great disservice to Australia. The Japanese have suffered some small setbacks, but their population numbers S0,000,000 and they have a further 20,000,000 people under their domination. They are preparing for the day when they will strike back. The areas that they have lost are very small, and I have no doubt that they will endeavour at. the earliest opportunity to recapture them. When one considers how they have spread their tentacles across the South-west Pacific, it is obvious that although they have been pushed back at certain points, they will come again. Any one who lulls himself into a sense of complacency by the belief that we shall receive no more shocks from the Japanese is, knowingly or unknowingly, doing a great disservice to this country. As a member of the Advisory War Council and of War Cabinet I can assure all members that we are in constant danger of further attack. It must be remembered tha-t Australia is a long way from centres of allied population. In order to make our maximum contribution to the allied cause, to minimize demands upon allied shipping, and to use our fighting forces with the fullest effect, Australia must envisage the maximum use of its troops in the areas most accessible to them, Both inside and outside the South-western Pacific Zone. The passage of this bill will enable this . to be done. Our proximity to the Pacific front lines calls upon us inevitably for a greater proportion of our man-power than that which any of our allies, with the possible exception of New Zealand, can possibly contribute to the common cause. If the demands be greater upon us than upon our allies we must remember also that our peril is greater and therefore we must put forward a greater effort to save ourselves. I emphasize that in making the Australian Imperial Force available for world-wide service, Australia is contributing to the allien cause a proportion of its man-power greater than that which any other allied country, with the exception of New Zealand, can possibly send outside its own territory. In addition to the Australian Imperial Force, the Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Australian Navy we are also contributing the Citizen Military Forces for service within the area that is most vital to the defence of the Commonwealth, namely, the South-western Pacific Zone, outlined by the Prime Minister. Nobody will question that it is preferable in every respect to defend Australia in the adjacent islands rather than to allow the Japanese to land in this country and fight on Australian soil. Our national peril demands the most effective use of all our forces, and that necessitates all our forces being made available for use in the South-western Pacific Zone. That is apparent from an elementary analysis of the position. Members of the Australian Imperial Force are all front-line troops, and can be most effectively used in the front, line. Our citizen forces include a proportion of troops fit for frontline service and a proportion, who although not fit for the front line, are capable of carrying out useful work on lines of communicatioin. Members of our citizen forces who are fit for frontline service can be used most effectively in the front line in areas, that are within the ambit of the provisions of this bill-. This measure makes these men available for service in the South-western Pacific Zone which will be Australia's front line for a long time to come. As the allied forces advance and reconquer enemy-occupied territory our lines of communication will extend to those territories, and the demand for men for service on lines of communication duties will increase correspondingly. For that purpose this bill will make available military personnel who, although unfit for the front line, can operate efficiently on lines of communication. Every advance into enemyoccupied territory will increase the demand not only for lines of communication personnel, but also for troops capable of undertaking front-line service to hold the territory gained and to repel any counterattacks which may be launched, because it must be remembered that our task consists not only of recapturing enemy occupied territory but also of holding it when it is recaptured. Does any honorable member believe that victory in the South-west Pacific can be purchased cheaply? I say plainly and without hesitation that our militia forces will not be sufficiently numerous for the work required of them in the South-western Pacific Zone, and that if and when the Australian Imperial Force proceeds beyond that zone our manpower resources will be so depleted that we shall be obliged to secure the further assistance of allied personnel to help hold the reconquered territory. Obviously it is a physical impossibility for any country to send all its military forces outside its own territory. Remembering that when honorable members opposite occupied the. treasury bench they repeatedly pledged themselves not to extend the area in which our citizen forces could be used beyond Australian territories, and knowing that the despatch overseas of all Australia's military forces would be a physical impossibility as well as strategically unwise, why does the Opposition demand that thisGovernment shall do what they themselves refused to do and what they kno w to be impossible? 359 JOS 0 0 BELL, George Sir George Bell - Does the Minister say that the Militia is numerically weaker than the Australian Imperial Force ? 359 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - The Australian Imperial Force is numerically stronger than the Militia in Australia to-day. The Opposition, apparently, lost sight of that fact. After hearing them one would think that we had only a few thousand men in the Australian Imperial Force and the remainder in the Militia, but not allowed to go outside Australia- 359 JLL 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr Abbott - What are the proportions of the two forces? 359 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - For security reasons I cannot give exact figures, but I can say that the Australian Imperial Force is nearly double the strength of the Militia men who are fit for service with the Australian Imperial Force. {Extension of time granted.] An impartial observer will agree that the present attitude of the Opposition members on this measure is determined by their desire to make political propaganda. They hope to delude the people into returning them to office at the next election. They are chagrined at the knowledge that the Prime Minister has so ably handled this problem, and has been able to win for his proposals for the liberalization of the Defence Act, the approval of a duly constituted convention of the Labour party. Thus he has kept intact the Labour movement which represents the great mass of the working people of this country, who have played a very conspicuous part in our war effort, and have given a greater measure of co-operation to this Government than to any previous government. To honorable members on this side of the House who object to the despatch of citizen force personnel beyond the territories of the Commonwealth, I say plainly that our national peril demands the most effective use of all our forces, and amply justifies the proposal of the Prime Minister who, undeniably, is actuated solely by the desire to do what he considers best in the interests of this country. The Citizen Forces comprise men fit for front-line service and men fit only for lines of communication work, which is non-combatant work. Further, when the Citizen Forces are drawn upon for men for garrison work, their strength is greatly reduced. To any one who says that we should retain all these men within Australian territory when fighting has passed beyond our borders, and is taking place in the perimeter of islands around Australia, I say that if we did that we should fail in our duty to the Australian people and to our Allies. We should then have Citizen Forces personnel fit for front-line duty standing idle in Australia; and as we advanced in the South-western Pacific Zone beyond Australian territory, Australian Imperial Force personnel fit for front-line duty would have to be withdrawn from the line, for duty on lines of communication outside Australian territories, which could be quite well performed by lines of communication personnel available in this country. Such action would discredit the Government in the eyes of the Australian people, and the Australian people in the eyes of our Allies. The Government has pledged itself to a maximum war effort, and it intends to carry out the pledge regardless of criticism. A. maximum war effort entails the most effective possible use of all our forces. That, in turn, necessitates the action the Government has taken in introducing this measure. We have, I freely admit, undertaken commitments which will strain our man-power to the limit, and impose upon the Commonwealth a greater proportionate burden than can possibly be undertaken by any of our Allies, with the exception of New Zealand. The alternative is complacency and probable fighting on our own shores. Our national peril is such that we dare not do less than we are doing. It is the aim of the Government to do more; and, I believe, that is the aim of all honorable members. I hope that the Parliament will speedily pass this measure. It has been introduced by the Prime Minister, who has done a magnificent job for Australia since his accession to office. History will declare him to have been the greatest war-time Prime Minister Australia has had. 360 KNX Wentworth 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON . - All that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) has said is, no doubt, very interesting, but it would be much more impressive to honorable members on this side did we not know that the Minister has a hard job to square the statements which he has just made with those that have been made on other occasions by the Prime Minister (M;r. Curtin). I strongly suspected that, while the Minister was appealing to honorable members not to indulge in party politics with regard to this proposal, he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek. His whole speech savoured- of party politics. Therefore, before I deal with the bill itself, I shall correct some of his statements. He took to task the Government of which I was a member with regard to its war effort. In effect, he said no good could come out of Israel ; that what we had done was of no moment, that we had made a complete mess of the whole show, and that honorable members opposite, as the saviours of this country, had assumed office in the very nick of time. I point out that the Minister, when in Opposition, was a member of the Advisory War Council. I ask the House not to forget that. As a member of that body, he, and his colleagues as well, must have known the exact state of affairs at that time. With that knowledge, he subscribed to what had been done by the previous Government. On the 28th May, 1941, the Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, declared in this House - Notwithstanding that there arc political parties in this country, I claim that the war has been prosecuted to the maximum of Australia's capacity, and I doubt if any great improvements could have been made upon what has been done by the Government working in collaboration with the Opposition. That was when the present Government members were in Opposition, and we formed the Government, which the Minister now seeks to deride. The Prime Minister continued - I say frankly that I have been in association with Ministers who have given their maximum service to the problems confronting Australia. The Advisory War Council and the Government have grappled with problems in a way which I believe has been as satisfactory as was possible in the circumstances. After he became Prime Minister and was in a position to review the whole of the actions that had been taken by the previous Government, he declared that through having been members of the Advisory War Council most members of the new War Cabinet were familiar with Australia's war effort. He went on to say- The Navy ' was at the highest pitch of efficiency, as demonstrated by the notable exploits of some of its ships overseas. The home defence army was well trained, and its equipment had been greatly improved. The strength of the Air Force had been largely increased, both in respect of home defence squadrons and the training resources of the Empire Air Scheme. The equipment of the Air Force had also been much improved. The Prime Minister added that munitions production and the development of production capacity over a wide range of classes, including aircraft, was growing weekly. Who is telling the correct story - the Prime Minister or the Minister for the Army? Does it not appear that the statements just made by the Minister have been made purely for party political purposes? Let us examine his speech a little more closely. In his opening remarks he said that there was no justification for unlimited conscription. That is a definite statement. 361 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - Unlimited conscription for overseas service. 361 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The Minister now says, " unlimited " conscription for overseas service. I should like to explain to the House that on the 27th October, about three weeks before the Prime Minister approached the conference of the Labour party, the Minister said - There is neither justification nor necessity for conscription for overseas service to-day. 361 F4U 0 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - For the unlimited conscription which honorable members opposite advocate. 361 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - No ; I ask the House to note the difference. The Minister, in his opening remarks to-day, said there was no justification for unlimited conscription. But on 27th October last he said, " There is neither justification nor necessity for conscription"; he did not say " unlimited " conscription. However, as he has now learned of the decision of the Labour conference, he qualifies that statement by saying " unlimited " conscription. Therefore, it ill-behoves the Minister to criticize the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) as he has done. He said that the right honorable member for Kooyong was aware of the extraordinary conditions existing in Japan, and that the Japanese would strike without warning. The Minister himself, however, made his own statement after Japan had actually struck at Australia. He declared that, although the right honorable member for Kooyong knew that Japan would strike without warning, he took no step to introduce conscription. Yet, after Japan had actually struck at us, the Minister himself said that there was no justification or necessity for conscription for overseas service. In this matter the Minister, like his colleagues, has retreated from position to position in order to adapt himself nicely to party political developments. Dealing with the bill itself, I shall give some indication of the reason for its introduction. It shows a lack of appreciation of our real position. The Minister, in his speech, delved into history. The right honorable member for Kooyong followed a similar course, but with different results. We might, with satisfaction, look 'a little more closely into history in order to discover the real reason for this measure. Before historians will accept the right honorable gentleman as being the greatest Australian Prime Minister to date, they will weigh his insistence on the limited use of the Citizen Military Forces against this country's obligations to its allies. History will not spare the Prime Minister as honorable members have spared him this week. The origin of the legislation lies in certain undertakings that the Prime Minister gave to General MacArthur. The right honorable gentleman said that any action which had to be taken would not be allowed to wait upon debate, and that if General MacArthur asked for certain things to be done, they would be done without delay due to political considerations. The people welcomed that broad and bold declaration. They congratulated themselves on having at last discovered a man worthy to be Prime Minister. But what happened? Immemediately General MacArthur, who accepted the Prime Minister's statement at its face value, made a request, the Prime Minister sought from the Federal Executive of the Labour party permission to make it the law of the country. Ignoring the Parliament of the Commonwealth, this leader of a democratic party appeared as a mere delegate at the conference of the Labour party and appealed te men, who had no knowledge or appreciation of the position, to consent to the introduction of this legislation. Had the right, honorable gentleman forgotten his assurance to General MacArthur that action would be taken without heed of political considerations? General MacArthur believed that the assurance would be honoured, but he did not know the Labour party. However, the Prime Minister had committed himself, and he was hi a cleft stick. He knew the hostility of the Labour party to conscription, and he was compelled to do something. The Prime Minister's reluctance to act will be appreciated when I quote from a manifesto written in 1916 by John Curtin, and entitled Australian Trades UnionAnti-ConscriptionCon.gress - The One-Day Stop-Work Meeting. Doubtless, some honorable members have read the article, for it was reprinted in the Century newspaper on the loth January last. Some of the most interesting paragraphs are - In the fight against conscription of labour and Iiic, the Labour movement finds itself also compelled to fight contain men whom it put into high places to serve the movement and not to "betray it. Unity of action is. therefore, now more essential than at any time in Australia's history. If the Labour movement loses, it means that corruption, treachery and reaction win. Fight then you must for your life, your cause, your liberties. Those sentences excellently interpret the Labour party's attitude to conscription. J'u another part of the article, the author stated! - On the Wednesday fixed upon, you will be expected to show that, under a strong provocation, willing a general holiday, you shall have it iri the teeth of a lying press and a recreant Parliament. Not a 'cab. bus, tram or train should run,, not a ship should sail, not a shop or factory or hotel or theatre should be open; not a newspaper should come out: not a butcher's, broker's or grocer's cart should be seen in the streets; not a. man of the all- powerful working class should be at work. Will you, as a unionist, help in the success of this policy? It is a policy for the protection and preservation of trades unionism, with all that it implies in better wages and conditions through the glorious gospel and might of organization. I have no doubt that the honorable member for Melbourne has espoused that view and that he will applaud those statements. He is not alone in that regard. A few nights ago, the honorable member for Lang (Mr. Mulcahy) made some observations upon the subject when the New South Wales executive of the Labour party decided to support the Prime Minister. I shall be interested to know the views of the honorable member regarding the signing of the pledge. The article proceeded - Therefore, stand together in defiant protest against an infamous and unconstitutional proclamation intended to wreck your unionism, lessen your standard of subsistence, terrorize your hearth and home, and manacle you and your children. Refuse to be bullied or lied or voted into the slavery of military control, under which your progress. - the admiration of a world - will be stayed and your life made unendurable. I quote those extracts for the purpose of illustrating the background of the Prime Minister, because I wish to show the reasons for the introduction of this legislation. I am not at all satisfied that the introduction of the bill represents a sincere effort on the part of the right honorable gentleman. I may, in my later analysis, come to a conclusion that the House will readily accept; but I shall first examine some of the resolutions of the Labour party on the subject of conscription because, the Labour party is, wha<t the members who represent it are. On the 24th March, 1940, the conference of the New South Wales bran eli of the Australian Labour party agreed to the following resolution: - The Labour party has always been opposed to imperialistic wars and to-day we demand that every energy should' be utilized' to bring about the establishment of peace at the earliest opportunity. At that time, the British Empire was fighting for its existence against Nazi-ism and Fascism, and, as the Minister for the Army has stated, " every body knew that Japan would strike without, warning, and we were not making any provision to protect ourselves ". But the attitude of the Labour party is expressed in those words. The resolution continued - We declare that the Australian people have nothing to gain from the continuance of the war. The management of this war, in the hands of anti-Labour Menzies Government in association with the anti-Labour Chamberlain Government, means that the war is being pursued in the interests of big. finance and monopolists. Conference is opposed to Australian participation in overseas conflicts. The Labour party unhesitatingly demands that no Australian troops be permitted to leave Australia. I ask: Can the leopard change its spots? I do not think the Labour party can, though when in a dangerous position, it would like to be able to. No matter how it may manoeuvre, it cannot rid itself of the many spots upon its skin. . In June, 1940, the Victorian branch of the Labour party carried the following resolution: - In view of the Government's declared policy that there will be no conscription for overseas service, the plank for the deletion from the Defence Act of all clauses relating to compulsory training and service stand in abeyance for the duration of the present war. Again, the Labour party refused to countenance conscription in any shape or form. From its inception, the party has been opposed to conscription. Even after the Munich agreement in 193S, the then Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin) declared : - I say that any increase of defence expenditure after the Munich pact so far as Australia is concerned appears to me to be an utterly unjustifiable and hysterical piece of panic propaganda - that is what I say in respect of the alarmist statements that have been made. Although the soil of New Guinea has been bathed with some of the best Australian blood, the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) said on the 2nd November, 1938 - It is amusing to hear people say that we shall not give up New Guinea - to those people I would say that if it should become necessary to defend our mandated territory they should defend it themselves. As far as I am eoncorned all I can judge about the necessity for retaining New Guinea is that a handful of exploiters have got hold of the country, some interested in aerial transport, some in gold mining, and some in search for oil. These people want to retain New Guinea in order ti; preserve their own commercial interests. Speaking in this chamber on the 5th November, 1936, the Minister also said - I should not be prepared to take up arms against the workers of any country whether they be German or of any other nationality. As a matter of fact, because I am not prepared to do that I am not prepared to tell others to do so. Those quotations illustrate the background of members of the present Government and their strong anticonscription complex. 363 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - Hear, bear ! 363 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - Some time ago the Minister for Social Services (Mr. Holloway) stated that he was opposed to any increase of expenditure for defence purposes. He would justify his attitude on the ground of his opposition to conscription. As the Labour party as a whole is opposed to conscription, I am led to wonder why at this juncture the Prime Minister has introduced this bill to effect conscription. The Minister for the Army painted a horrible picture of the danger that threatens Australia, but -the bill will not permit the proper movement of Australian soldiers to battle zones. For example, the boundary beyond which the Citizen Military Forces may not be sent excludes Lord Howe Island, which will be protected by New Zealand. I do not contend that the Government is not empowered to send Australian troops there; but New Zealand will be responsible for ensuring the security of the island, and Australia will not be bound to protect our sister dominion. The introduction of zones merely confuses the issue, and will make the free movement of our forces impossible in the South-west Pacific Area. All these anti-conscription sentiments of which I have spoken, have been manifested in definite opposition in Queensland and Victoria, and superficially to a lesser degree in New South Wales. Therefore, this crystallization of opinion in New South Wales, the chief State of the Commonwealth, appears to me to be significant .as to the boundaries fixed by the bill and the subsequent manoeuvres within the Labour party to try to effect its recall. 363 KHL 0 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr Holloway - Why does not the honorable member support the amendment? 364 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - I shall have something to say about the amendments, proposed and foreshadowed. I notice very few Labour members rising in their places to speak on this measure, and am wondering what has happened to render dumb the Labour party, which ordinarily speaks at every possible opportunity. We get an odd speech from a very odd Minister, but we hear practically nothing whatever from the rank and file. What are honorable members scared of? Are they waiting to see what happens to the bill before they declare themselves? Honorable members on this side of the chamber are not afraid to declare themselves. How much better would it be for everybody, especially for honorable members who have not spoken, if the Prime Minister could at this juncture throw the bill under the table, and say, " Well, boys, that's that. Solidarity at last! All our differences within the Labour party have been composed, the bill is under the table, and you need have no further worry ". Then again we should have a spate of words from the party on the Government side on all matters pertaining to the war. Let me see whether the Prime Minister had something in his mind regarding such a proceeding. What happened when the debate was resumed on the motion for the second reading? When the call came for a speaker from the Government side two or more honorable members rose. One was the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) and another was the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Coles). Promptly the honorable member for Melbourne sat down, allowing the honorable member for Henty to address the House and announce his intention to move an amendment when the bill reaches committee. It cannot be said that there was no intention on the part of the Labour members to speak, because Ministers have spoken since then, but they all gave pride of place to the honorable member for Henty. Why? Obviously the honorable member was about to announce an amendment that would solve all the difficulties of the Labour party, by permitting the Prime Minister to throw the bill under the table and say, "Well, boys, that's that". The honorable member for Henty duly foreshadowed his amendment, but on the 2nd May last he opposed a similar motion from this side of the House. Now he rises in his place, it may be out of pique, or because he wants to put us on the spot, or because he wishes to relieve the Government party of a very nasty internal condition. I am wondering if there was not some connivance with regard to the announcement of the honorable member's intention to move such an amendment. I strongly suspect that there was. It is most significant that when the honorable member rose in his place other honorable members sat down, and they all applauded him when he stated his intention to move an amendment. Even if a trap has been set to catch the Opposition and to get the Labour party out of a nasty position, honorable members on this side are so firmly convinced of the necessity for conscription that they are prepared to support the Government in order to ensure that at least this modicum of conscription for overseas service shall be granted to Australia. If either, the amendment foreshadowed by the honorable member for Henty, or the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Barker, which is really that the bill be withdrawn, be carried, the bill will be withdrawn so hastily that the Prime Minister's fingers will be blistered by the friction. He will throw it under the table and say: " That is the end of the bill, boys ; now we are back where we were, and the Opposition must take the responsibility of not giving to this country a measure of conscription commensurate with the position as we know it to-day ". Honorable members on this side of the chamber would be just too foolish if they fell into such an ill-conceived trap as was laid by the honorable member for Henty. They would also, in my opinion, be foolish if they fell into the error of supporting the amendment moved by the honorable member for Barker. Every one of us on this side of the House feels impelled to move for maximum conscription and the lifting of all boundaries. I believe that that is the only policy that will save Australia. I shall not be a party to giving Labour an opportunity to withdraw the bill and to compose the whole of the differences in its ranks at the sacrifice of Australia's national necessity and prestige. I am the more firmly convinced that I am right in the view I have expressed by the fact that, at the conclusion of his speech, the honorable member for Melbourne, who is in the Labour party, takes part in the party meetings, and knows its workings, said that he hoped that the bill would never become law and that, if it did, it would never be used. Of course he did, and he also hoped that the amendment indicated by the honorable member for Henty would be accepted by us. I am sure all honorable members on the Government side shared those hopes. We know exactly how their thoughts are moving in that regard. I hate this miserable measure. 365 K0K 0 0 CONELAN, William Mr Conelan - The honorable member is in an awkward position. 365 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The only position that I am in is that I shall not condone the machinations of the Labour party in this regard. The bill is a miserable one and is no credit to Australia, but .it represents some advance. Certainly if it were defeated we- should get nothing. Sooner than allow that to happen, I am prepared to see the Labour party take the . first necessary step in a conscription policy, and break down the bigoted principles that have manacled it for the past 30 or 40 years. The bill, of course, makes no provision for one army, but at the same time we expect every other nation fighting in the Allied cause in this war to merge its army into one. Indeed all have done it, with the exception of the Union of South Africa. Every one of the belligerent nations has enforced conscription. Our sister dominions, and the United Kingdom and America have it. All the nations fighting on our side are sending their conscripts here - a position that was ably dealt with yesterday by the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes). We, however, are not permitted to send all our troops to the help even of our sister dominion, New Zealand, or to relieve our own prisoners in Malaya, or to Singapore, or to encompass the deliverance of certain islands that are split in half by these extraordinary boundaries. The bill does not satisfy me or any other member on this side of the House; it is miserable in its conception and in its drafting, it does not fully and truly set out the opinions of the people of Australia, but it does at least offer a modicum of relief, and, rather than have it thrown under the table, I shall accept it as it is. 365 DTN Barton ALP Attorney-General 1 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT , - I cannot understand the position taken up by the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) today, and by the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Spooner) last night. They condemn the bill as being inadequate, insufficient and incomplete, but they intend to support it. Some honorable members opposite favour the amendment moved by the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) and the amendment foreshadowed by the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Coles). I cannot understand why, if they are in favour of those amendments, they do not propose to support them. The suggestion made by the honorable member for Wentworth, that the amendment foreshadowed by the honorable member for Henty has been arranged between him and the Government, i3 utterly and absolutely false. The honorable member for Henty has sincerely advocated a greater degree of compulsion than the present law permits, and has given notice of his amendment, because he honestly believes that that is the solution of the existing problem. The honorable member for Barker has acted with equal sincerity. But the theory that there is some scheme afoot to destroy the bill by putting forward amendments of this character is too fantastic and too subtle for any one to believe. I am sure that not a member of the House does believe it. These amendments really test the sincerity of honorable members who say that the bill does not go far enough. The main question to be debated - and I think it can be discussed on practically a non-party basis without heat or rancour - is whether, assuming that the present legal limits upon the employment of the Militia should be extended, any geographical limits should be placed upon such extended area. The fact is that some limits are imposed upon Australia by two considerations. The first is our limited resources of man-power. A strong case for unlimited compulsion can be made in countries the man-power of which is practically unlimited. But Australia is in a very different position. Do not let us argue from one country to another. Australia is short of man-power, and, as the High Commissioner for Canada said the other day, is reaching the bottom of the reservoir. I do not think that it is right to pretend to be able to plan to cover more than the most optimistic would regard as reasonably practicable over a substantial period of time. The argument against these particular boundaries, when it is analysed a little further, is an argument against any boundary at all. That is why the amendment of the honorable member for Barker, although quite impracticable, is also logical. Once any boundaries are fixed for an extended area, apparent anomalies and contradictions, of the kind that have been already pointed out in this debate, must at once arise. If we include the north-western tip of Java what reason is there for excluding Sumatra? If Sumatra is included, the next argument is : Why not include all the Malay States? So we should go on from step to step. If the Malay States are included, what is the reason for excluding Siam? If Siam is included, French Indo-China ought fairly to be included. If the Philippine Islands are included, the next step is Formosa, and so on. Whatever boundaries we fix, Ave can always pass on to the adjacent territory and ask why that is excluded. In relation to Malaya, there is an argument of apparent potency which the honorable member for Wentworth has mentioned, because of the deep and poignant anxiety of the relatives of the Australian prisoners of war taken there. But it is wrong to assume that all prisoners of war taken in Malaya are still there. The evidence available is, of course, not conclusive, but I have closely studied it, and it points to the conclusion that there has been at least a substantial transfer northwards of many Australian prisoners of war from Malaya, with its tropical conditions, to areas closer to Japan itself. Reports that we have received show that many Australian prisoners of war taken at Singapore are now in Siam, Formosa, French Indo-China, Korea, and Japan itself. We all support the supreme objective of redeeming and releasing our prisoners of war, but every one, not excluding the honorable member for Barker, will agree that that will occur when Japan is defeated, not in Malaya, but at the decisive point, wherever that may turn out to be. My view in the matter is that the area fixed in the bill represents the practical limits of our future land operations over a substantial period of time, it being the declared intention of the Government to proclaim the whole of the area immediately the bill is passed into law. 366 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - Why the need for the proclamation? 366 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - The honorable member may say that the proclamation will be unnecessary, but the Prime Minister has announced that the proclamation will cover the whole area specified in the bill. Although in one sense the proclamation will be unnecessary, it will be made. 366 KXT 0 0 PATERSON, Thomas Mr Paterson - The whole area will be proclaimed in one bite? 366 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - Yes. That is the Prime Minister's announcement, and it is the intention of the Government. I turn to the suggestion of the honorable member for Henty that the Government should have power to extend the area by proclamation. I submit that the suggestion is a somewhat unreal one. Parliament has complete liberty to alter the area. It is unthinkable that a government would ever proclaim a further extension unless it was certain that Parliament would endorse the extension. And Parliament could be called together in a very few days. I submit this view: The Prime Minister has had the labouring oar in this great matter. I think that Parliament should defer to his judgment. He is Minister for Defence and is in close touch with our military leaders. He has set his face against pretending to be able to do more than we can do, and yet he has made provision for the changing strategy over the next six or twelve months. He has therefore fixed a limit enormously extending the area in which the Militia Forces of Australia may be employed during the present war. The area of land outside Australia in which our Militia Forces may be employed will be increased by this measurefrom 183,000 square miles to about- 568,000 square miles. In view of that no one can say dogmatically that the area he has fixed will be found to be too limited, at any rate for a substantial period of time. That brings me to the amendment moved by the honorable member for Barker that there should be no limit of any kind. The amendment is logical, but in its logic completely overlooks all practical considerations of the man-power limitations placed on this country. I dispute altogether the theory that in the present circumstances we should necessarily and in all respects adopt the compulsory obligations imposed by the law in countries of relatively vast population. That argument would be far more cogent if this country itself and its approaches were not threatened; if Japan did not threaten our territories. The Prime Minister of New Zealand, Mr. Eraser, made that point this morning. This continent is threatened, and it will continue to be until there is a definite change in the strategic position. This debate has taken an extraordinary turn. Most honorable members, I am sure, did not intend that there should be this series of attempts to understate the war effort of Australia. Proportionately speaking, it is as great as that of any other country in the war. Australia's sacrifices have been greater than those of other British dominions. Very great burdens will still fall upon us. We are the only British dominion which has faced, for twelve long arduous months, the danger of invasion by a ruthless foe. In truth, the nation is almost fully geared for total war. We have received magnificent assistance from both the American and the British Governments, but our own efforts must not be underrated for political reasons, lest irreparable harm be done to the understanding of our position both in Britain and in the United States. There are some points which I impress upon those who say, as the honorable member for Wentworth said, that this bill is inadequate and that there has been some "letting down" of General MacArthur, as was stated by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott). Let them remember - Almost the whole of our manpower has been diverted either to the armed forces, direct war work, or essential civilian production which must be regarded as war work. The number of Australians under arms in the three services to-day is almost double the number that served in the last war. The overall figure exceeds 700,000, and is the British equivalent of 4,250,000, the American equivalent of 13,250,000 and the Canadian equivalent of 1,100,000. The strength of the land forces in Australia has been nearly trebled since Japan declared war. The strength of the Royal Australian Air Force was greatly increased in 1942. The number of men and women diverted to direct war work of all kinds in 1942 substantially exceeded the number diverted in the entire four years of the last war and the first two years of this war. Since February. 1942, between 400,000 and 500,000 men and women have been diverted from civil production to the services or direct war work. Since the outbreak of war employees in government munition factories, including aircraft plants and shipbuilding yards, have increased by more than 800 per cent. In September, 1939, government factories employed 13,500 men and women, of whom only 1,300 were women. By the end of 1942, the number had increased to 113,000, of whom 26,000, or nearly a quarter, were women. The number of factory employees producing goods for the civilian market has been reduced by 64 per cent, since war began. Before the war, factory employees totalled 540,000, practically all of whom were producing for civilian needs-. Today only 194,000 are producing for the civilian population. Almost as many men and women are now producing war materials as were needed to supply the whole of the civilian needs of Australia before the war. From 540,000 before the war the overall number of factory employees has risen to 700,000, of whom 513,000 (or 72 per cent.) are on direct war work. Employment of women on direct war work in Australian factories has increased one hundredfold since war began. In September, 1939, there were only 1,300 women munition workers, all of who were employed in Government factories.Now there are 126,000-26,000 in Government factories and 100,000 working on direct war contracts in private factories. Approximately 25 per cent, of all munition workers are women. Since war began munitions production has enormously increased. Speaking of Australia's war effort, General MacArthur said only a few months ago - No nation in the world is making a more supreme war effort. It is rapidly gearing to full capacity. Its resources are relatively meagre, but, it is utilizing them to the utmost. This is the man who knows. We have fulfilled every requisition made upon us. 368 JPN 0 0 BLACKBURN, Maurice Mr Blackburn - Is this a requisition by General MacArthur? 368 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr EVATT - I do not say that it is. The suggestion by the honorable member for New England that there had been some failure by us to meet the implied obligations of Australia as one of the leading nations engaged in the South-west Pacific Area cannot be supported. Every requisition for the movement of forces or material made upon this Government has been complied with. In the face of this no one should decry what Australia has done, is doing, and will do to achieve final victory. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that there should be no question of party in this matter, but the Leader of the Opposition fails to answer the Prime Minister's case which is - That for a substantial period of time ahead the man-power resources of the country do not permit of the employment of the Militia to an extent greater than is suggested in the proposed boundary. That this boundary will not limit in any way the utilization of other Australian service units wherever they can best serve the Allied cause. The present strategic plan for the theatre of war in which Australia has a very special responsibility and interest suggests further concentration of our human and material resources within that area, with two objectives - preserving Australia against invasion, and carrying out Australia's part in any offensives that may from time to time be determined. The Government, especially the Minister for Defence, is the best judge of what the security of the country requires and permits. In. his considered opinion the present plan offers a practicable solution of a difficult and delicate problem. Its adoption does not prejudice future revision by Parliament of the plan. At the present I submit that the plan should be followed. There are two fundamental principles which are carried into effect by the bill - first, the present plan fulfils all the needs of General MacArthur's strategy not only for the present but also for a substantial period ahead of us. These needs are not measured in any niggardly way. The extended area is a vast one and those who measure it on Mercator's- projection will be grievously misled. Equally, it is wrong to hold out the chimera of an immediate conquest of the vast area which is embraced by the present proposal. Grandiose schemes not based on any realistic and practical or common sense assessment of the agreed strategy and our present resources, and the available allied resorces, will turn out to be a delusion and a snare, and may lead to utter disaster to a young nation, the war effort o'f which has been magnificent. In these matters what is practical and possible is also what is best. The present task set us is a great and noble one ; let us unite to perform it. Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m. 369 JY7 Wakefield 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES . - This much-heralded bill, which, I take it, has been the subject of countless conferences between the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and others, with both the Central Branch of the Australian Labour party and, through it, with the State branches, is at last before the Parliament. One had been led to expect something which would be epoch-making; but this measure is what has been produced. The best way to prove the success or otherwise of the Government in producing this bill is to review the debate which has taken place here during the last two days. There has been a general chorus of criticism from this side of the chamber, whilst from the other side, apart from Ministers, only two private members have spoken. Both of them - I refer to the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) and the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) - criticized the measure caustically, the former going so far as to say that he hoped to see it defeated. Apart from support from the ministerial bench, the bill has not received any approval whatsoever in this House. That is evidence of its poor quality, notwithstanding all the cogitation about it before its introduction. There is, in consequence, a feeling of unreality about the whole of the proceedings. If ever there was a time when proceedings in the world outside ought to be brought keenly to our notice, it is now, and therefore a bill which itself is unreal and which elicits very little interest either in this House or elsewhere is not adequate to meet the needs of the time. I desire to say a few words about zones, although I shall not go into details. The difficulty which members of this chamber have experienced has been to know what the South-western Pacific Zone really is. The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) made a speech in this chamber early in December last, and I listened to it with keen interest because the honorable member indicated at least what the supposed zone was. Up till then, one could only assume that the area, wherever it was situated, was south of the equator. The honorable member quoted from an American publication which has been described as the best-informed review of foreign affairs. After the last war, when I was in the United States of America, I was told that if I wished to read anything on foreign affairs, I should he welladvised to get the Christian Science Monitor. According to that publication, it appears that a zone is known in the United States of America as being the presumed zone of operations. I presume, therefore, that that zone is also known to the people of Great Britain. The remarks of the honorable member for Bourke on that occasion were censored, and do not appear in the records of the proceedings of this chamber. Yet the information which he gave to this House was available in the United States of America, and, as I have said, presumably in Great Britain also. I think that the honorable member's remarks were of such interest and importance that they should be incorporated, as an addendum, in a later number of Hansard. Why should the people of Australia be deprived of information which is passed on to them from this Parliament, when similar facts are known in. other countries? I admit the difficulty of applying a general censorship to different countries, but the honorable gentleman's remarks were censored on the ground of national safety, and that ground for their exclusion no longer can be advanced, seeing that similar information was published in the United States of America and Great Britain, the censored remarks should be reincorporated in Hansard. I shall not say much about the zone except to endorse what the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) said about General MacArthur's command. Why should our troops be confined to a specific command? Let me put a case to the House. I have listened with interest to the speeches which have been delivered here this week, but I have not heard much about our sister dominion of New Zealand. It is imaginable that New Zealand may be attacked, and not Australia. Should faha* happen, our Militia Forces could not, under this ball, be sent to New Zealand's aid, although members of the Australian Imperial Force could be sent there. That would be deplorable. I always thought that the Labour party, as well .as of every other section of the , COntmunity, regarded New Zealand as a younger brother or sister, and that if a-ny one had a call upon us in an emergency it was the people of New Zealand. Shall we promote a better feeling between ourselves and other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations if we -make it impossible for our Militia Forces to assist a -sister dominion in an emergency? When the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) moved his amendment, I seconded it with great heartiness, and I am prepared to accept the responsibility for my action. The bill does not go far enough. If I may say so. St, is not so much a bill of expansion as of limitation. It will be so regarded by ' all foreign nations, -whether allies or foes. The measure before us is an intimation to our enemies that we shall not send troops any further than, has been prescribed, without first giving due notice to them. I am aware that there may be differences of opinion in these matters, but I do suggest to any open-minded man that it is better to have a general power which is likely to be wisely exercised, than a limited power which has constantly to be increased. I say, without the slightest fear of successful contradiction, that what Professor Dicey used to call " the internal sanction " applies here, and that no government will denude its own country of adequate defence. Risks may have to be taken; but we can presuppose that there will be no attempt to send such a large number of men overseas as would render this country liable to successful attack. There are two angles from which we can look at this matter. There is, first, the old Australian angle with which I hope to deal later; and, .secondly, the more important .angle at the present time, namely, the international aspect. Has any one who has sponsored this bill considered adequately the international reactions to it? What will be the opinion of the people of Great Britain, to whom we owe more than to any one else? What are likely to be that country's reactions to a bill like this, in view , 01 what its people have suffered in this war? In Great Britain, women as well as men have been conscripted, and the people have had to stand up to a war on their very doorsteps for a longer period than is customary in the case of men. in the firing line. Is the .exclusion of New Zealand likely to make us more 'beloved in the other dominions of the British 'Commonwealth? What about the United States of America, to whom we owe so much, whose people have come here so willingly, in such large numbers, -and which has acted with such an open hand? Is it not inevitable, if we want to do our fair share in this war, that we must give fully when it is our -own safety rather than the .safety of the United States of America which is primarily at stake? I have considered for years that -Canada is perhaps in the most privileged position in the world, with the Pacific and the AtlanticOceans on either side and .a very friendly United States of America to the south. We are not in a similar position. We have been surrounded for years by islands which may have concealed enemies. For a number of years I have addressed myself to this subject so' forcefully in speeches as to contract a sore throat. I have stressed the necessity for our realizing that Japan has a population of 70,000,000 cornpared with our 7,600,000; that it has had universal training of its manhood, and we have not. I asked what was likely to happen if a war occurred. That event has occurred. No one can deny that the two outstanding factors in those that have hitherto saved us have been the prodigious effort of the Motherland and the great assistance given to us most willingly ir the United States of America. Are not we to make an adequate return, .small in number though -we may be? The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) said this morning what I do not think one would have dreamt of his saying when he was a Justice of the High Court of Australia. Referring to conscription, he said that countries which have unlimited! manpower can impose unlimited conscription, hut Australia, with its limited manpower, cannot do anything of the sort. 371 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr Evatt - Not without endangering the man-power position. That is not a legal proposition, but one of economic realities. 371 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - Surely, it must be obvious that the weaker you are the greater the effort you have to make. Proportionately, America has not to make nearly the effort that is demanded < Australia, nor has Great Britain, apart from its proximity to Europe - if" that can be ruled out - because of our enormous territory, the smallness of our population1 and our danger. 371 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr Evatt - I agree with what the honorable gentleman says. I take it tha' he1, too, agrees that Australia, with its limited man-power, cannot stretch it? resources as far as can a country with unlimited man-power. 371 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - That is n matter1 for the Government to consider. I definitely accept - one can do nothing else - the general principle that whatever government may be in power it will ensure that, as far as- possible our hold on this country shall, not be reduced to such n point that- it will be in danger. Obviously, opinions may differ as to what that point is. Whether the Government bo composed of honorable members who sit on this side of the House, a national government, or a Labour government, it will look first to its own defence; but if it i? to make its own defence an excuse for not sending troops out of Australia, no' talcing an adequate part in war operations, then the whole thing must break down in the eyes of the world. 371 JPN 0 0 BLACKBURN, Maurice Mr Blackburn - That is the very argument that is being used against Great Britain now. It is said that force.' are being kept in Great Britain for home defence when they ought to be used for the opening of a second front in Europe. 371 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - If you happen to be only 24 miles distant from where the Germans are congregated in large numbers, presumably you have to keep a rather stronger force than would otherwise be needed in order to meet a sudden irruption. Great Britain does not receive lengthy notice as to when enemy aircraft are to be sent over; on the contrary, within five or ten minutes of their having left their base the aircraft are engaged in attacks on British cities and towns. That is an entirely different proposition from the one that we are considering. We have an enormous territory. In some measure, it is sequestrated from the rest of the world. In some ways, that is an advantage, whilst in other ways it is a disadvantage. What is likely to be thought of us by the Chinese, who have fought unceasingly for about six years, or by the Russians? I am completely free of all criticism in regard to the Russians, because they do not happen to have precisely the same political ideas as we hold. I have read works by a good many Russian authors. The Russians have been a great people for a long time, but never militarily as they have beendaring the last two years. To me, their performance- has been one of the wonder.? of the whole war. Are not we to do something to assist them, when they have- done so much to assist us, by holding up the German armies? 371 DTN 0 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr Evatt - But the honorable member knows that Australian airmen participated in the exploits of the air wing which, fought in Russia. 371 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - A few of them. I am not suggesting that we should send troops1 to Russia. These matters are not managed in that way. In the last war, our troops on Gallipoli neutralized a tremendous number of enemy troops. It is claimed by men who know what they are talking about that they thereby played a. very important part in the- winning of the war. Their particular show - if I may use the expression - was not in itself successful, but it was most successful in its effects on the other operations of war. I have no objection to Australian troops being sent to any part to which the Government considers that they should be sent. I repeat, that when operations of this sort are being undertaken, secrecy is essential. There should be the power to send troops anywhere, without notification of the fact by the issue of a proclamation, without placarding it through the press or in any other way. Attack should be possible without reference of the matter to Parliament in order to ascertain its views. How can Parliament have a knowledge of the whole of the details? Therefore, I say, let any Commonwealth Government have full power to send troops wherever it may consider they should be sent in the general interests of the war. When I say, " the war ", I do not mean the general interests of Australia so mud as the general interests of the Allies ir the winning of the war. What will the Dutch think of us - those people who have been most grossly betrayed? I do not know whether honorable member, have read a work entitled, The Rape of the Netherlands, by E. N. van Kleffens who was Minister of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands Government, in which he describes how the Dutch after the last war took a lot of German children who were suffering from rickets and other complaints, fed them for years, and saw that they were preserved in a normal state of health. When this war broke out, it was learned that a lot of those children not only had been engaged in espionage, but became active spies against the nation which had befriended them during a1' those years. What are the Dutch likely to think of people who are not prepared to stand up to their great indebtedness? What about the countries that have been overrun and are awaiting release - Norway, Poland, which has been ravaged in a way that is almost unknown in modern times ; Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, in which the people of a whole village are taken as hostages and later are shot, the village being razed to the ground, because of the shooting of one German officer ? That is total war. That is what one has to think of when dealing with a bill of this character; not of pushing a zone a few miles farther out, saying to the Australian Imperial Force troops, "Fall in", and to the Citizen Military Forces troops, " Fall out ". I do not know the meaning of the word " global " if that be global war. I have one claim to a right to speak about the people of the nations to which I have just referred. Through no merit of my own I happened to have been brought up, to some degree, on the other side of the world, and I have returned to Europe on numerous occasions. For many years I have been greatly interested in foreign affairs, and I have visited Great Britain, not merely to see and enjoy the beauties of the homeland, and the qualities of its people, great as they are, but also to follow up my study of foreign affairs. With the possible exception of one honorable member, I suppose that I have visited more European countries .than anybody else in this chamber. I was in Spain a few months before King Alfonso left the throne, and I visited Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Austria where I had been earlier in 1937. I have visited all parts of Europe from Holland to Italy and Sicily. I do not pretend to know so much about the United States of America, although I have visited that country a couple of times. I have a fair idea of what the people of those overseas countries are thinking now about some of the things that have been done in Australia. I know the people of Great Britain so well that it is not necessary for me to write and ask them what they think about Australia. They do not approve what has been done here, but they do not say so. There are other people, however, who do not like our attitude, and will say so. Australia, with its huge territory and small population, should take thought to make some friends for itself in the world. Some years ago, Mr. Crofts, a respected member of the Australian Labour party, was one of our delegates to the International Labour Conference at Geneva, and on his return to Australia he confessed his surprise to have found that Australians seemed to be unpopular overseas. The reason why the people of other countries do not like us is that we are selfish. That is the position in a nutshell. The bill before the House is no merger whatever. Ever since the last war I have been in favour of conscription. I had over three years' experience in that war, and I observed that the supply of reinforcements was constantly falling off. The best of our men had already gone to the front and many of them had paid the supreme sacrifice. Many others gradually joined up. They were not intimadated so much as shamed into enlisting, but they did well. I do not believe that there is any specific bravery in one man as compared with another, except in a few isolated cases. Some men seem to have a valour that is undaunted in any circumstances, but others simply " cannot take it ". They are essentially timid - perhaps for some psychological reason. The average man, after having gone through the initial stage of war service, is just as good as the next. I think that it is all wrong that the flower of the manhood of the country should be killed off while others who are not so public-spirited should be left. Under th voluntary system of enlistment, many men conscientiously make up their mindthat their first duty is to their wives and families, and I believe that they would be devoutly thankful if their right to choose between service at the front and remaining at home were taken from them. Conscription provides the only means by which reinforcements can regularly be provided. The Prime Minister referred to Field Marshal Smuts. Think of the tremendous task that that notable statesman has had to deal with because of the disloyalty in South Africa. If any statesman in colonial history has deserved well of his nation, or of the British Commonwealth of '.Nations, it is he, as reference to the quarterly articles on South Africa in The Round Table during this war will show. . The area of Africa is four time3 that of Australia, although the white population of the Union of South Africa is only about 2,000,000 as against our 7,000,000. Australia could be taken up and dumped down in the Sahara and Libyan deserts. I consider that Field Marshal Smuts has put up a superb performance. Has any honorable member been able to foretell how this war would develop, or to what parts of the world it would extend? There have been great surprises. The battle on the European front may not be decided first, but all the indications are that it will be. Great Britain and the United States of America have said that they will then throw their full weight into the struggle in the Pacific area. Are Australian troops to remain in this area, or are they to fight alongside the troops of Great Britain? Are we to expect the United States of America to wage the warfare that may be necessary beyond the zone fixed by this bill? If the Government desires power to fight this war to the finish, it should take full power now. That is why I support the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Barker, than whom no man in this House has more frequently pointed out the dangers in which this country stands, and in which it may find itself in future. In the last war Great Britain adopted conscription, and by that means its troops were reinforced. Australia did not apply conscription, with the result that its soldiers had to fight on without receiving the leave that they needed. Does any one stand for that? Well, I do not. In the last war it was found that the effective fighting life of a man in the line was not much more than two and a half years. There were some very phlegmatic men who might be able to last as long as three years, or more, but there were others who fell sick and had to be sent out after a much shorter time than two and a half years. My recollection is that, in the Royal Air Force, men were " grounded " after eighteen months. That was in the last war, and we know that the strain is much greater on men in this war. We have not been there to see, but we have read of what the men have to go through. The Papuan campaign, in which our men have been engaged, was probably as difficult as any campaign could be. Are we to ask the men who have fought through such conditions to go on fighting until they are either killed or so maimed that they cannot fight any more? That would be an unworthy request to make. Here are a few instances of how the war is hitting some people. I know of a widow who had six sons, of whom one is a youth below military age. The other five enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force, and three of them have been killed. The mother received notice of the death of two of them in the same week. Within the last few weeks I have had the unhappy duty of writing to three of my friends who have each lost two sons. In two of those instances those were the only sons the parents had. Another friend of mine, whose son was lost flying in Africa, told me that out of 70 young men who had gone away as pilots at the same time as his son, 63 were either dead or missing - and that was some months ago. Are we to do nothing to ensure that men are available to take their places? Are the same men to be put into the line time after time, and no attempt made to spare them? 1 know of one young officer who was badly wounded in North Africa. He was brought back to Australia, and, when he recovered, was sent to Papua. He was wounded there, and brought back to Australia for a few weeks leave, after which he was sent to New Guinea again, where he has been wounded a third time, ls he to be sent back again and again until he is killed? I know that it is impossible to fight a war without losses. Every soldier knows that, but I believe it to be a monstrous system under which the public-spirited men who enlist in the defence of their country must face all the danger, while others are left behind. The only reasonable thing to do is to spread the risk - which probably means the casualties - over the whole of the population insofar as we can. The Government will probably ask - where we are to get the men ? No doubt we shall be reminded of the dearth of man-power, something of which most of us were aware a good while ago. I began discussing it with the then Minister for Labour and National .Service in February of last year, when I pointed, out that, unless great care was taken, the country areas would be denuded of labour. The question then arises, where are we to get men for the relief of those already in the fighting forces? "Well, there are too many men working in industrial concerns at the present time. In South Australia, I should think, there are between 20,000 and 30,000 young men, single and physically fit, working in industrial concerns. 374 KSD 0 0 MCLEOD, Donald Mr McLeod - Does not the honorable member want ammunition for the guns? 374 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - Of course I do, but it is not necessary to have young men, fit and unmarried, to make the ammunition. We could get women to do much of the work quite as well - some people think even better. It is time that some weeding out was done so that those who have so far remained behind may take their turn at the fighting. Of course, I know that it is necessary to retain many of the scientific men. Nobody but a fool would throw them away. 374 JXL ALP 1 0 FROST, Charles Mr FROST - According to the honorable member, the unskilled labourer is never to have a chance at all. He must always be the first to fight. 374 JY7 0 0 DUNCAN-HUGHES, John Mr DUNCAN-HUGHES - Is not the rural worker already there? I also believe that some effective weeding out might be done in the Public Services. We have myriads of public officials, not all of them old men, and a great many are associated with departments of mushroom growth which are really hindering rather than helping the war effort. More men could, I am convinced, be obtained from the universities. I have no desire to disparage the work of the universities, but university men should take their part to a greater extent in the fighting in common with other sections of the community. Perhaps they should be even more disposed to do so, because, being better educated, they should have a better realization of the issues involved. I know that the Minister for War Organization of Industry ("Mr. Dedman) has a plan in mind for the granting of bursaries for the training of young men in various branches of science. I realize that we must have veterinary officers and men qualified to engage in research work, but we must not overdo this sort of thing. I am not objecting to that, but I am afraid that there are many people whose main qualification for membership of a reserved occupation is that they have taken a university degree. If a university is to teach a man anything at all, it should be that when the time comes he should be willing to fight for his country, as well as make his intellectual knowledge available to it. In the Navy, Army and Air Force, there is ample scope for intellectual men. Anybody who has had association with any of the services knows that. I draw the attention of honorable members to the words of Rudyard Kipling, who, incidentally, lost his only son in the last war. In a speech at Edinburgh University in July, 1920, he said - Here, as elsewhere, the sins of the fathers were visited upon the children. The sons of your University were constrained, like their forbears, so to use themselves in matters of conscience as they should answer to their Maker. Jill earth has witnessed that they answered as befitted their ancestry; that they endured as the strong influences about their youth had taught them to endure. They willingly and wittingly left the purpose of their lives unachieved in order that all life should not be wrenched from its purpose; and without fear they turned from these gates of learning to those of the grave. This is their glory and also that of their severe but beloved mother, who. while she gave them learning, dowered them also with the wisdom lacking which all learning is folly. 375 L0G Flinders 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN .- The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin), the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) and the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) have all sought to justify this measure on two grounds, first, that it will fulfil all our military requirements as seen to-day, and, secondly, that the country is incapable of. making any greater military effort than is envisaged in the bill. With all due deference to those Ministers, I disagree profoundly with them. The military requirements of to-day, and most certainly those of the future, will demand far more from us than is proposed in this measure. Sooner or later we shall be compelled, both in the military sense and the moral sense, to put forward the whole of our strength into the fields in which that strength can be applied most usefully. Therefore, it seems to me that this measure, judged on that ground alone, falls short of this country's requirements. I shall not deal with our moral obligations at the moment; I shall confine my remarks to the second ground on which the Ministers to whom I have referred', have sought to justify this measure, namely, that it is the maximum military effort of which this country is capable. To any one who has studied the situation, such a claim is complete nonsense, because if it be admitted that our Citizen Military Forces can go forward to certain defined areas where they will be employed, in accordance with statements that have been made in this House, as lines of communication troops, then it is obvious that they can go even further forward. A point that should not escape the notice of honorable members is that if we take a certain section of our military forces and use it as a second line or second grade force, its morale and efficiency will be reduced. It is a well-known fact in military science that using troops for secondary purposes destroys not only their efficiency, but also their morale. There is no reason why our Citizen Military Forces should be earmarked for such jobs. It is true, as the Minister for the Army has said, that some of these mer are in lower physical categories than the men of the Australian Imperial Force, but at the same time, there are large numbers of troops in the Citizen Military Forces who, although they have not volunteered for service in the Australian Imperial Force, are of the required physical standard. There is no reason why these men should not be employed as front-line troops in places where they are required. For those reasons, I disagree emphatically with the remarks of the Prime Minister and the Ministers whom I have mentioned. One is entitled to ask why the measure now before the House is so meagre in its scope compared with the proposals which were put forward when the Prime Minister opened, his negotiations with the Labour party. From remarks that have been made in this House and reports that have appeared in the press, it would appear that at, the very least the amalgamation of the two forces was in contemplation. The Prime Minister is reported to have said that there was no argument against the amalgamation of the two forces; yet this measure fails completely to satisfy that requirement. In the -light of these facts, honorable members are justified in inquiring why the change of attitude has taken place. Obviously, it could not have been due to any change in the military situation, because that situation to-day is substantially what it was when the approach to the Labour party was first made. Therefore, the only conclusion at which we can arrive is that the whittling down of the original proposals to those contained in this measure was done to stifle opposition within the Labour party itself, and to avoid a serious rift or split in its ranks. The only really commendable feature of this bill is that it represents a step in the right direction, namely, towards the establishment of a single army which may be used in any area that is considered vital to the defence of this country. For the Labour party, the measure constitutes a very important step; it is the crossing of the Rubicon It is true that the Rubicon in this case has not been crossed to any distance, but yet having been crossed, the whole field that lies ahead becomes more easily accessible. However, important as the Labour party's decision has been, this measure fails entirely to meet requirements and displays a complete lack of realism in the approach of the Government to the military situation which is facing this country and the United Nations generally to-day. I say advisedly that there is great disappointment among a large section of the people because this bill does not go further. There is a general feeling that once again the Labour party mountain has laboured and brought forth a ridiculously small mouse. The introduction of this measure is a disappointing anti-climax. For some months past the people of this country have been viewing with dismay the spectacle of the Prime Minister seeking the permission of the controlling authority of the Labour movement to remedy a state of affairs which since the entry of Japan into the war has constituted an insult to this nation, and the results that have been achieved by the Prime Minister are regarded with a considerable degree of astonishment. There was a general hope that the Government would have been prepared to go much further than it has gone in this bill. I for one did not expect that there would be an immediate amalgamation of the two forces, but there was a confident expectation that the area in which those forces would be permitted to serve would be considerably larger than the South-Western Pacific Zone specified in ' the bill. The area in which our forces may be used is arbitrarily limited within certain meridians of longitude and parallels of latitude. It bears no relation at all to the military requirements of the situation, or to our national obligations. The bill whittles down the area to practically nothing at all. On what principle can we decide that our troops can go to Sourabaya but may not proceed as far as Bandoeng or Batavia, or to Bougainville but not to Guadalcanal? New Zealand, Fiji and New Caledonia are outside the area, but those places together with the Solomons, Santa Cruz and the Hebrides are just as vital to the defence of this country as New Guinea or New Britain. This measure introduces into our system of defence a rigidity which seems to be entirely wrong. Under it, we can extend the area in which our troops can be employed, only by summoning the Parliament to pass the necessary legislation, which must receive the sanction of the Governor-General before it becomes law. In following that procedure, we shall proclaim our military plans to the whole world, and, particularly, to our enemies. It will indicate that we intend to take the offensive; and the Japanese know perfectly well what forces we have available for that purpose. The Japanese know a good deal better than1 most honorable members what troops we have available in the Australian Imperial Force for offensive action, and also in the Citizen Military Forces. Thus this measure by its very form gives information to the enemy which may be of great value to them not only now, but also in the future. For military reasons alone we should define a larger area. The effect of the bill will be deplorable. It will encourage our enemies, and dismay our friends. The Japanese have said for a long time that our heart is not wholly in this war. I, and other honorable members", have heard such broadcasts from Japan. They say that , whilst we may be prepared to defend ourselves if we be attacked, they doubt very much whether we have the spirit to employ the whole of our forces in an offensive action outside Australia. On our friends the effect of this measure will be bad indeed. Great Britain has flung, and is still flinging, into this gigantic conflict all its available troops regardless of geographical limits. But what of the effect on the United States of America, but for whose opportune aid we should, probably, to-day be suffering the ravages of invasion? We accept that country's aid with gratitude, and a sense of safety which we did not feel before; but we make no complaint that the American troops sent here were raised compulsorily. We do not regard it as degrading that conscripts should be sent here. The truth is that we shall degrade ourselves if we do not pay back in the same measure as we receive. The Government views its achievements, which it is constantly talking about, with great complacency. It fails to realize that its opinion of itself is not widely shared either in this country or abroad.' Not much news is given in our newspapers about the feeling of people overseas in this respect. Recently, the Prime Minister said specifically that there was no censorship of such reports; but the point is that whilst no such censorship may be exercised in this country, cur press correspondents overseas, particularly in Great Britain and the United States of America, are very chary of sending information which may be unpalatable to us. It is true that, generally speaking, the reputation of Australia stands high. I gather that from, reports which I have received from many sources. But that is due to one thing alone, namely, the achievements of our fighting men - our soldiers, sailors and airmen - overseas. It is they who are now writing Australia's name in letters of gold on the scroll of history. But we cannot pay a similar compliment to the Government. Information which throws some light on this aspect is trickling into the country. Quite a number of people in Australia receive letters from friends abroad from which they obtain some idea of what people overseas are thinking. Recently, I received the following letter from a friend of mine, an Englishman, who resides in London, and who has a great regard for Australia - There have been some bad reports about Australia. Unfortunately there is no means of verifying these reports, but they get about. I am afraid ultimately somebody will have to have some courage and put these things in such a tactful but firm way that the relationships between the two countries are, in the public mind, improved. We are so blooming polite in this country, so I am told, that we do not say just what we should, and I have been advised by some Australians over here that it would do good if we were to speak out at times. However, the job that individuals can do is to deal with these dissensions when they arise in the spirit that while they quite likely may have foundation it is a waste of time to go into them, and that our job is to win the war and afterwards to work together. You would be astonished to know that there are some quite intelligent people in the City of London who think that Australians are going to work in with America, and only be attached to this country in a sentimental way. Personally, I believe there is no reason why the relationship should be other than good after the war, provided there is a, frank exchange of views, and where there is a tendency to boast and throw undue weight about, to rub in some of the failures of the past. I also receive similar letters from friends in the United States of America, from which country has emanated rather severe criticism of our attitude in this "war. Honorable members will recall that the first criticism of that kind was voiced over the air by the well-known American commentator, Mr. William Winter. He asked why it was that American troops can be employed in any part of the world wherever the enemy is found, whilst, at the same time, only a portion of Australian troops can be so employed. That is not a nice report. However, it is being repeated, in substance, throughout the American press generally. This measure is not calculated to still such criticism. Many people abroad believe that we are still thinking mainly of ourselves, and our personal safety, and are not concerned with the fortunes of the Allied cause as a whole. The Government may not be wholly responsible for that position1; but it is inclined to view the war through the rose-coloured spectacles of its own complacency. We should endeavour to obtain an accurate idea of the effect of our actions in relation to this world struggle. We are not prone to criticize ourselves, but rather regard everything that we do as right and proper. The Minister for the Army said to-day that we must stand up and say that we are doing the right thing. We should slap ourselves on the back. That is entirely wrong. It behoves us to do the right thing, and talk less about it. What will be the effect of this measure on Australian prisoners of war in the Far East? The Attorney-General said that he did not believe that many of our men were left in Malaya. That is probably correct. They may have been transferred to Indo-China, Thailand or Formosa, but the fact remains that they are still in captivity, and live under coolie conditions in hostile lands in a trying climate, with an inadequate food supply. To those people, this measure will bring very little hope. Wc in Australia can send to those unfortunate prisoners a message of greater hope than that which is embodied in this bill, and I believe that every man and woman in Australia would, if asked, reply to their call with these words, " Have patience, we are coming. If necessary, we will all come." In saying these things and particularly in criticizing the action of the Prime Minister for introducing the bill in the manner in which he did, I recognize that the Government is bound hand and foot by party rules and regulations.But in war, what is required is flexibility of thought and of action. It is impossible for any country to wage a war successfully if the Government is firmly tied by the rules and regulations of an antiquated platform. It is surely little short of madness for any country to entrust the conduct of a war to a government whose actions and policies are dictated by men - in most cases union bosses - who have little knowledge of the real issues, and no knowledge of the requirements of the military situation either here or in other parts of the world. Their opposition toconscription dates back many years in Australia, but the roots are really to be found in the history of our race. In Britain, there has been a great dislike of anything military since the rule of Cromwell. That spirit has always shown itself, despite the fact that during the 18th century Britain raised armies and used them abroad with varying success. To realize the deep feeling of the British people against conscription, we have only to recall that in peace-time, the government must renew the Army Act annually. If that feeling existed in Britain, there is every reason why it should be found in Australia, because we have inherited British traditions and have adopted the British form of government. But the feelings of Australians in this matter have been accentuated far beyond what one finds in Great Britain. The explanation is that from the time of our infancy till we attained nationhood, we lived in one of those rare periods of the world'shistory when nations were at peace, andwe accepted those conditions as being typical of our way of life. Of course, our freedom from attack was due entirely to the pax Britannica, but our ideas of military matters, as well as many other matters, are far behind the modern times in which we live. Times change and ideas always die slowly ; but nowhere do they die more slowly than in this country, and nowhere in Australia more slowly than in the ranks of the Labour party. The reason why that should be is not difficult to understand. The Labour party lives in bygone days, particularly in military matters. The Labour party is the most conservative party in this country, because it adheres rigidly to outmoded ideas. Its policy is based on wornout shibboleths which prevailed 50 years ago. In no respect have Labour supporters been more conservative than in their attitude towards the Australian Army. In Great Britain the same ideas obtained until the beginning of the last war. In 1914 Britain had two armies, namely, the regular army, which could be despatched for service in any part of the world, and the territorial army, which was raised for home defence. After the outbreak of war. the British Government quickly realized that the best form of defence was offence and legislation was introduced to permit the territorial army to serve on the same basis as the regular army. Before the outbreak of the present war Great Britain introduced conscription, and. the conscripts were available for action anywhere. But Australia, in spite of this lessons learnt from the last war and of the omens that the Axis was poised in readiness to strike at the British Empire, remained , bound by ideas which were suited to conditions 50 years ago. Recently the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) suggested that volunteer troopswere far superior to conscripts, and expressed the view that a man. would fight, with better heart on his native soil than in some foreign land. I pay no particular heed to the views of the Minister, particularly on military matters, becausehe has never been within miles of an operational front. I refer to his statement merely to point out that his beliefs are shared by many members of the Labour party. In the last war I foughtwith the French and the British, who had been compulsorily called to the colours, and officers and men whowere on that section of the frontwith me will affirm my contention that the conscripts foughtwith the same bravery and efficiency as any volunteer. No one who has fought against the Germans will deny that they are brave, efficient and enthusiastic soldiers, in spite of the fact that they are compulsorily enlisted. More often than not, the German fights not on his native soil but in foreign countries. 379 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr Barnard - Is not that largely due te his psychological make-up? 379 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - No. He is fighting for his ideals. To take the case a stage further, it can hardly be argued that because the Japanese are compulsorily enlisted they are therefore indifferent soldiers. The whole of our recent experience in the East, New Guinea and the islands has shown us that they fight most tenaciously, and are indeed very efficient soldiers. If the Minister for Labour and National Service and others persist in their view that voluntarily raised soldiers fight -better and more bravely than compulsorily enlisted ones do, they must admit that the reason why they fight bravely is their intrinsic value as men, rather than any effect of the system of training or enlistment to which they are subject. I shall never admit that our soldiers are intrinsically less brave and efficient than the Japanese, the Germans or those of any other foreign nation. As regards the attitude of Labour to the Army, the old Australian Imperial Force owed little or nothing to Labour. In the last war, when the best Australian battalions were wasting away for lack of reinforcements, and the whole of the Allied cause seemed to be at its last gasp, the Labour council in Sydney carried a resolution asking that the war should be stopped in the interests of the Allies. Similar resolutions could be found running through the whole of the Labour pronouncements during that war. I mention that, not because I wish to go back to what occurred then, which is not necessarily relevant to the present time, but because similar statements have been made at various Labour council meetings which have been taking place recently. lt is time that Labour pulled itself together, and really faced up to the realities of the modern world. Our soldiers are fighting to-day for Australia, and not for the coal-miners, the shopkeepers, the Broken Hill Proprietary Limited, or any other section of the community. It is time that the Government itself took a rather wider view of its own responsibilities in this waT, and followed the views and principles of our soldiers themselves. I freely admit that so far the Government has done much towards helping Australia's war effort, but at the same time its purpose has not been singleminded. It has been, and still is to a great extent, serving the sectional interests of the particular parties which support it. It is time that the Government settled down to fight this war without regard to any change or otherwise in the present internal situation. We surely have enough on our hands at the present time without trying to upset the existing structure of society. That can be done, if necessary, when the war comes to an end. If our purpose is deflected by the demands of various sectional interests, our total war effort will not be so strong or so firm as it should be. To win this war we must be united. To-day we have not- a united Parliament, a united Government, a united people, or a united Army. 379 KMZ 0 0 MARTENS, George Mr Martens - Not even a united Opposition. 379 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - I am asking for a united Parliament. Great Britain has become united from top to bottom since the war began, and no one will deny that its effort has been magnificent. We can follow in Great Britain's footsteps and do our duty to Australia by becoming united also from top to bottom. We are still suffering from a sectional Government which does not represent the whole of Australia. No one can deny that our Government is sectional. It is true that it is working for the war effort, but it is also avowedly working for sectional interests also. It is only through a united Parliament and a united government that we can provide our people with the inspiration that will enable them to put forward in the coming year the effort that will be demanded of us all. Debate (on motion by Mr. Blackburn) adjourned. 380 Adjournment Man-power - Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms : Ventilation - Allied Works Council: Wages and Overtime Rates - " A.B.C. Weekly " - Women's Auxiliary Services: Regulations - Australian Army : Medical Inspections- - Departmental Correspondence - War Damage Insurance. Motion, (by Mr. Chifley) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 380 KX7 East Sydney ALP Minister for Labour and National Service 1 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD . - Last Friday, in the course of a speech to this House, the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) made a series of allegations against the administration of man-power in Australia. I propose to take some of the major misrepresentations made by the honorable member in his speech and to answer them in some detail. The honorable member said at one stage - The worker may he dismissed for serious misconduct, but before he may be discharged the case must be referred to the Appeals Board, which regularly and faithfully amends all charges of serious misconduct to charges of misconduct, and orders the employee to return to his job. The true position is that the rights of an employer to terminate the services of an employee in a business which has not been declared protected are in no way affected by the Man Power Regulations and the services of such an employee may be terminated so long as the provisions of the appropriate award are observed. In the case of a protected undertaking, an employer shall not terminate the employment of any person engaged in that protected undertaking without the permission in writing of the Director-General of Man Power or a person authorized by him. Provision is made to enable appeals to be placed before a local appeals board. Where an employer in a protected undertaking has reason to ibelieve that an employee has been guilty of serious misconduct he can suspend the employee from duty, but must submit to the Director-General of Man Power or a person authorized by him a statement in writing setting out the grounds of the suspension. Before the employee can be dismissed, the suspension must be confirmed by the Man Power authorities. The honorable member alleged that all charges of serious misconduct are reduced to charges of misconduct and the employee is ordered to return to his job. That the honorable member's charges are ill-founded and without any basis of truth may be seen from the results of appeals lodged. More than 100,000 decisions have been given under these sections of the Man Power Regulations and against these decisions only 416 appeals had been lodged up till the 31st December, 1942. Details of these appeals are as follows: - Employers lodged 114 appeals. They withdrew 18 of these: 41 decisions were given in the employer's favour and 51 against. Employees lodged 302 appeals. They withdrew 85 of these : 118 decisions were given in the employee's favour and 155 against. From these figures it will be seen that in all, 196 appeals were decided in favour of the employer, while only 169 were given in favour of the employee. Quite obviously, the honorable member did not know these facts when he made his irresponsible criticism. The honorable member made another allegation, equally inaccurate, when he said - The (transfer of workers from one industry to another should be on the approved basis of a greater need for skilled tradesmen in another factory or a greater concentration of men in order to stimulate production of a certain kind. Unfortunately, at the present time, transfers are effected to allow employees to get higher wages. Throughout the time that this Government has been administering man-power, it has acted in accordance with its charter which lays down that the object of the Man Power Regulations is - To secure that the resources of man-power and woman-power in Australia shall be organized and applied in the best possible way to meet the requirements of the defence forces, the needs of industry in the production of munitions and the maintenance of supplies and services essential to the life of the community. Further, national service officers have been instructed that the question of whether permission to transfer shall be granted must be considered in the light of all the surrounding circumstances and the monetary factor is to be disregarded entirely where the person's services are more valuable to the war effort in another capacity. The honorable member also alleged that one firm, Stromberg Carlson (Australia) Proprietary Limited, had lodged 97 appeals with the man-power authorities, of which the employees had won 92. I have been more reliably informed by a person -whose duty it is to be accurately informed of man-power facts, that there is no record of any appeal ever having been lodged by this firm. There is only one appeal in which the firm's name appears and that was lodged by an employee. The honorable member also made reference to a number of cases which he said illustrated mismanagement of man-power. He instanced the case of Mr. H. Trot, who was suspended by Stromberg Carlson (Australia) Proprietary Limited for alleged misconduct in objecting to an instruction given by a foreman. After a full inquiry had been made into the case, the investigating officer - a man with more than 20 years of experience in the State Department of Labour and industry - reported that in his opinion if misconduct was committed it was committed by the foreman and that there appeared to be no justification for suspending Trot. Consequently, the employee's reinstatement was ordered with pay for all time lost by reason of his suspension. Later the employee agreed to take his clearance from the firm after he was paid for time lost. Another case instanced by the honorable member was that a release had been granted to a Miss Bennett to leave her employment with Stromberg Carlson (Australia) Proprietary Limited. In this case the applicant's release was approved after a full investigation, and the employer did not exercise his right of appeal. In respect of Mr. George Hancock, toolmaker, a communication was received complaining that this man had left his employment without permission. Hancock had given a week's notice one day prior to the company being declared a protected industry. As notice had been given of intention to leave prior to the firm becoming a protected industry, it is doubtful whether a conviction could be sustained by a prosecution. Stromberg Carlson (Australia) Proprietary Limited, the firm concerned, was informed that every effort had been made to induce Hancock to return to its employment, but that the man-power regulations did not provide the necessary power to force him to return. With regard to the honorable member's statement that skilled men were transferred from an engineering establishment at Newcastle to a shipbuilding yard, the position was that applications were made by the men for release and approvals were given. The company appealed and a conference was held at which a settlement satisfactory to all parties was reached. When the honorable member of artillery fame laid down his barrage of criticism of man-power administration, he did not worry himself unnecessarily with facts. As a result, what he hoped to be a shattering barrage proved, to be a broadside of ill-aimed duds. 381 KA9 Lilley 0 0 JOLLY, William Mr JOLLY .- I understand that the Australian Broadcasting Commission is giving consideration to entering into a new contract for the printing of the A.B.C. Weekly. I therefore take this opportunity to urge upon the Government the advisability of its giving consideration to the wisdom of continuing the publication of this journal which, as I have recently ascertained, is continuing to show a huge loss. In the year ended the 30th June, 1942, the total expenditure was £46,000 and the revenue - advertising and sales- £17,041, a loss of £28,959 per annum, or over £550 a week. But that is not the worst feature. This journal was published to -provide listeners with the programmes, but as a matter of fact only 3 per cent, of licence-holders subscribe to the journal. So. from that point of view, the journal is indeed a futile experiment. At least a dozen journals are published in Australia to supply the same information as is contained in the A. B.C. Weekly. It might be worth while if the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) paid the same attention to this activity as he has paid to many others in this country. I am concerned about the waste of money, for how can we expect the people to heed our appeals for austerity when we continue to squander not only money but also materials and man-power in the publication of this journal ? 382 JPN Bourke 0 0 BLACKBURN, Maurice Mr BLACKBURN .- Is it possible for the Joint House Committee to improve the ventilation of the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms, not for the benefit of honorable members, whose stay in Canberra is short, but for the benefit of the staff ? In summer time the women work under intolerable conditions, which I understand could be mitigated, if not. entirely removed, by better ventilation. I trust that you, Mr. Speaker, as a member of the committee, will ensure that this matter is considered by that body at an early date. 382 KUN Robertson 0 0 SPOONER, Eric Mr SPOONER .- I listened with great interest this morning to the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) assure the House that the high wages paid in some instances to men employed by the Allied Works Council were due to the fact that award rates and conditions and overtime rates operated. I assumed that that was the ease, hut I was glad to have the right honorable gentleman's assurance. I hope that within a day or two the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) will tell us of the need, to stabilize finances and to levy additional taxes in Australia. The time has come for the Government to examine public expenditure iri order to ascertain how money might be saved in order to lessen the cost of the war. I ask the Government to inform itself upon a statement which appeared recently in the Goulburn Penny-Past. I shall hand the Treasurer the report, which contains a statement by Mr. J. Barry, who is said to be a well-known Goulburn identity recently returned from the north, and who was employed at Rockhampton and Charters Towers. If this statement be correct it demands the closest inquiry to rectify the position he describes. If it is not correct the Government should procure the information to enable it to say so. The report states that Mr. Barry was amazed at the conditions and was satisfied that things could not continue as at present. He had never seen anything like it - cooks earning £40 a fortnight and lorry drivers £52 a fortnight, although they did not supply their own lorries. This man says that one can .see on the roads gangers who have never had experience of that class of work. Some of them were greengrocers before they were called up by the Allied Works Council. He affirms that it does not matter to them that they work lengthy periods of overtime for which they receive extra payment, because the breaks between the work are so long and frequent that it is doubtful whether they work eight hours a day. He speaks of one poorly paid old man who had nothing to do except boil the billy, for which he received only £17 a fortnight. He states that these payments are in addition to the keep which is provided for the men. He mentions that before he joined the Allied Works Council he was in the Army, and was discharged for health reasons; but he now has three sons in the Army, " and they are getting only six bob a day ". 382 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - Why did he leave this good job, where the big money was? 382 KUN 0 0 SPOONER, Eric Mr SPOONER - He goes on to explain - I confess I got my cut of the money just the same ns the rest of them, but you can't tell me I earned it. At Christmas time, over a fortnight, I drew £31 14s. 7d. Taxes took about £8, so you see I still had a pretty good wad. I've never seen such a good thing in my life and the country can't carry on with it; that should be plain for any one. 382 L08 0 0 ROSEVEAR, John Mr Rosevear - That does not explain why he left it. 382 KUN 0 0 SPOONER, Eric Mr SPOONER - I do not know that he has left it. He is back at Goulburn, but he may be on leave. I am not able to say whether or not he has left, and am merely quoting from a newspaper report his statements regarding the duties that have to be performed. He concludes - In addition to this, there was no medical examination before the men went up there; but off the men were sent, and they were scarcely there before many of them were sent back again. It's certainly time something was done about the whole business. With the nation confronted with the costs it has to meet to-day, with the difficulties of finance with which we shall be faced in the next financial year commencing on the 1st July, the Government must do something to rake these costs through. The difference of pay between men employed by the Allied Works Council and men in the Army is another matter. That is an issue that might very well be raised, but it is a policy matter which ought not to be debated on the motion for the adjournment of the House, and it is not being raised by me now. Allied works are necessary, and it is essential to have men to perform them, but I doubt whether the organization is such as to ensure that they will be done at a reasonable cost to the nation under existing conditions. If this is a reasonably accurate statement of what is happening, the closest investigation by the Government is demanded; otherwise, the Government should inform itself, and see that it is protected against such statements. 383 K9G Kalgoorlie 0 0 JOHNSON, Herbert Mr JOHNSON .- I agree with the suggestion of the honorable member, but would' go further. I admit that inquiries should be made into such allegations; but the public should be told the whole story. I have had some experience in this connexion as a member of the Joint Committee on War Expenditure. Prior to the launching of the last Austerity Loan, a circular emanating from the Rutherglen Shire Council, in Victoria, was distributed to every council in the State. The Joint Committee on War Expenditure happened to be in the district in which the Rutherglen Council is located. It called on the acting town clerk, who was responsible for the issue of the circular, and took evidence from him on oath. He admitted that the information supplied in the circular was mere hearsay, and that neither his council nor he, as acting town clerk, had taken any steps to confirm what had been gleaned in the street. Every member of the Commonwealth Parliament, and every shire council in Victoria, was circularized. When the Government does institute an inquiry, those responsible for the circulation of such unfounded statements should be dealt with by some process of law. I know that long hours have been worked by employees of the Allied Works Council. They could not be avoided, because rush jobs were necessary in order to provide roads and other facilities that were needed for our troops. The shortage of labour had to be overcome, and facilities had to be provided as quickly as possible. The Rutherglen Shire Council has been given some publicity. I consider that it did a good deal of damage to this country and to the efforts of the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) to raise finance for the conduct of the war. While on this visit, the secretary and the assistant secretary of the Joint Committee on War Expenditure visited the office of the Works Department, where they checked the time sheets and the wages that had been paid. In every instance, the rates were in accordance with the industrial award governing the employment. The rates paid to tractor drivers sound very high but the factors responsible for such costs are withheld. The tractor driver is personally responsible for petrol, oil, and wear and tear of his machine. He is paid in a lump sum which covers those costs as well as his wages. Where incorrect information is circulated for the purpose of discrediting the administration of the Allied Works Council, the person' or persons responsible should be treated in the same manner as any person who circulates propaganda which may be regarded as subversive or fifth column in character I urge the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) to see that individuals responsible for the circulation of inaccurate information are dealt with in accordance with the law. 383 009MC Fawkner 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT .- The matters discussed by previous speakers with regard to the activities of the Allied Works Council raise the general subject of overtime payments in war-time. I introduced this matter to the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) to-day by means' of a question, because it has become increasingly clear that the war cost of this country is being increased to an unnecessary degree by the provisions relating to overtime now current under industrial legislation. I do not object to the general principle of a penalty rate in respect of overtime, but the principles underlying the payment of overtime and the reasons for the fixation of the penalty rates now operating should be reviewed. Consideration should, be given whether industrial conditions which were adopted in peacetime can be maintained on the same lines under conditions of total war. A stiff penalty has been fixed by the court for the working of overtime, because it is known that employers will not work overtime as a general practice if it can be avoided, and because it is considered desirable to protect the health and welfare of the employees. When an employer works his employees overtime under normal conditions, one may safely assume that, having regard to competitive enterprises operating in peace-time, he does so only because he is under strong pressure in regard to production. But where there is a chronic working of overtime, week in and week out, say, five twelve-hour shifts in each week of the year, it becomes obvious that the conditions which affect the fixation of penalty rates in peace-time are being strained to meet' the circumstances of war, and perhaps meeting them without a proper basis of payment to the men concerned. I do not believe that any workman would say that if he worked five twelve-hour shifts throughout the year, he would give the equivalent in terms of working capacity that his hourly output of a normal working day would represent in peace-time. Not only is he paid for the twelve hours, but for the hours worked beyond his normal working week he receives a substantial penalty rate. I understand that the general rate operating to-day for overtime is time and a half. In peace-time the employer does his utmost to keep overtime down to a minimum. The conscientious employer has in mind the welfare of his men. Employers generally at least desire to save themselves unnecessary expense in their production programme, and can be relied on to reduce overtime to a minimum. When an employer is engaged on war-time production, and his returns are possibly calculated on a cost-plus basis, or his costs are taken into account in the prices which he is authorized by the Prices Commissioner or some other governmental authority to fix for his product, there is no safeguarding circumstance which would cause him to have a care as to the volume of overtime worked in his establishment. These very factors would only encourage all but the most patriotically minded employer to work as much overtime as he could in order to inflate his costs and thereby increase his returns. Probably all honorable members have had brought to their notice during this war instances which have led us to believe that there are mutually satisfactory arrangements between employers and employees to see that plenty of overtime is worked, without great care being taken to examine whether the overtime is justified. We can see the effect of overtime rates on the waterfront. The penalty rates fixed in peace-time for work under certain conditions on the waterfront were particularly onerous, and that was done deliberately by the late Chief Judge Beeby, who wished to discourage shipping companies from working excessively long periods of overtime, at night time, or at the week-ends when ships were in port. Particularly heavy penalty rates were fixed for night rates on ships and work carried on at the week-ends on the wharfs. That factor has created great difficulties in maintaining under war conditions an even flow of labour on the waterfront. Naturally, if a workman is about to work over a period of eight to ten hours, and is free to select the period in which he will work, he will favour those hours of work or those days in the week in which his labour would bring him the largest financial return. The general experience has been that a much smaller number of men have been offering for the daytime pick-up on the wharfs than for the night pick-up, and at the week-ends men have shown the greatest desire to work because of the heavy penalty rates then operating. Instances have been reported to me in which men engaged in protected industries, after having worked for five days during the week, have absented themselves on Saturdays and gone to the wharfs during the week-end earning as much as £8 for the two extra days' work. Without challenging the basis on which the overtime rates are normally fixed in peace-time, I urge the Government to review the whole position in the light of war circumstances. Under war conditions the increased labour costs are almost invariably passed on, and, in the last analysis, fall directly on the shoulders of the community as a whole. Reasons which may have been sufficiently sound to affect decisions of courts in time of peace may have much less justification in time of war. When I put my proposal to the Prime Minister to-day, he deprecated any departure from the conditions of work and rates of pay fixedby our arbitration tribunals, and I agree entirely with that principle. If some review of this kind were to be made, it could be most properly carried out by the judges of the Arbitration Court themselves, and as the result of an approach by the Government. The Government, as some of its Ministers have reminded this House on many occasions, is at present the largest employer of labour in the Commonwealth, and it would be entirely proper for the Government, as an employer, to approach the court and seek a general variation of the conditions regarding overtime for at least the duration of the war. Unless the Government takes action of that kind, in conjunction with other measures necessary to effectwartime economy, it will have little hope of successfully coping with the tremendous financial problem which is so apparent to-day. The present increasing difficulties will be further accentuated, and unnecessary burdens imposed upon the people, as a result of the present conditions governing the working of overtime. 385 BV8 Melbourne 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL .- The honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Jolly) advocated that the publication of the A.B.G. Weekly be discontinued. As this matter is now being considered by the Broadcasting Committee, which will undoubtedly make a report to the Government before the end of this period of the session, perhaps it would be wise for the Government not to act precipitately upon the importunings of the honorable member for Lilley. There may be reasons for not publishing any journal at a loss, but when the honorable member speaks of the waste of man-power and newsprint involved in the publication of the A.B.C. Weekly, I remind the Government that it might well turn its attention to the daily press of this country which uses a great deal of man-power, newsprint and other material that could undoubtedly be put to better use. The fact that the daily press so misrepresents the political opinion of this country is another reason why it should receive the attention of the Government. The Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) put forward a proposal some time ago for the rationalization of the press but, according to the statement of the manager of the Melbourne Herald, he received little support for it in Cabinet. I do not know how the people associated with the Murdoch press ascertain what happens in Cabinet, but it is certain that they boast of a victory over the Minister for War Organization of Industry on this issue. I am sorry that he did not have more success with his plan under which newspaper interests were to be compelled to amalgamate so that there would be only one morning daily and one evening daily in each capital city. That would have released quite a lot of man-power, some of which could be more usefully employed in munitions works. I am particularly desirous of seeing the more valiant and pugnacious of the scribes of military age now urging war service for every body but themselves, made to serve in the front line. I hope that this matter will again be brought before Cabinet for consideration, so that the press of Australia may be compelled to bear some of the burden which it is so anxious to impose upon others. The suggestion of the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) for the better ventilation of the dining-room in this building is deserving of consideration. I have heard it said in the lobbies that a proposal has been made which would involve removing the kitchen and boilers from their present location to a building to be erected on the space now occupied by the road at the back of Parliament House. If that were done the temperature in which the staff has to work would be reduced and, incidentally, the comfort of honorable members would also be catered for. It is possible that, the kitchen and boilers having been removed, the dining-room could be situated downstairs, and the space now occupied by the dining-room might be used for the accommodation of officers and honorable members. I hope that the Joint House Committee of which you, Mr. Speaker, are a member, will give this matter early consideration. I ask the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) to inquire into the inordinate delay in the gazettal of regulations to govern the employment of women attached to the fighting services. I understand that the nurses attached to the Royal Australian Air Force are not yet covered by regulations, although draft regulations were submitted to the Defence Department for approval as long ago as August. 1940. Regulations to govern the employment of members of the "Women's Auxiliary Australian Air Force were drafted eighteen months ago, and submitted for approval, but they have not yet been gazetted either. Apparently, as each new women's organization is established, it furnishes an excuse for further delay in thegazettal of regulations for those already in existence.We also have such other women's organizations as the nursing services of the Army and Navy, the Australian Women's Army Service, the Women's Royal Australian Naval Service and the Australian Women's Army Medical Corps, formerly known as the Voluntary Aid Detachment, and just recently a Women's Land Army was inaugurated. It is beginning to seem that the war might be over before regulations governing the employment of women, in these various, organizations are finally gazetted. I also wish to draw the attention of the Minister for the Army to some undesirable features associated with the medical inspection of men called up for military service. I have here a copy of a letter which the Minister for the Army addressed to the Minister for Health and Social Services (Mr. Holloway) concerning the enlistment of a man who was under treatment for venereal disease at the time he was called up. He was medically examined at the end of 1941, and was found to be temporarily unfit, and his call-up was deferred for twelve months. He was examined again in May, 1942, and the call-up was again deferred for three months, but in November of that year he was allegedly found to be medicallyfit. I understand that on this occasion he was not medically examined, and I am informed that he was still under treatment. He protested that he was unfit, and said that he should not go into camp because he was still infected. However, the military authorities said that he would be drafted to a recruit reception depot and then, as he is classified as medically fit, he would have to go into camp. The doctor who attends him says that he is still in an infectious state, and should not go into camp. The Army medical authorities have refused to consult the man's own doctor, and still maintain that he is medically fit. The result is that the man, who will not go into camp in his present condition, is absent without leave. I ask the Minister to lay down a strict rule that a person suffering from a social disease must not be placed in a position where he would be likely to infect other trainees, and that in all such cases a medical board must examine the man before he is finally passed as fit for military service. In this particular case it is claimed that the man was examined, but he declares vehemently that he was not. I am sure that the circumstances of the case are such that the need for some supervision by senior medical officers of the Department of the Army, if a repetition is to be avoided, is obvious. 386 JLZ Richmond 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr ANTHONY .- I draw the attention of the House to the increasing disregard shown by certain Public Servicebureaucrats, as they have been described in certain quarters, in their relations with the public. At times, departmental officials completely ignore letters addressed to them by members of the public in relation to matters upon which the livelihood of the writer may depend. In some instances letters are not even replied to, unless a member of Parliament intervenes. I shall cite a remarkable example of such neglect - I stress the fact that it is only an example of what is going on, because I have had numerous complaints of this nature from time to time, as no doubt have other honorable members. This matter concerns the administration by the Department of Trade and Customs of liquor rationing which is a most important matter to those who are engaged in supplying liquor to the public. To-day some hotelkeepers are having difficulty in making their businesses pay, and are striving hard to avert possible bankruptcy owing to the inadequate supplies of liquor that they are receiving. To such people it is a matter of great moment that their claims should be carefully, competently, and reasonably considered. I am not concerned at the moment with the merits of any particular case or whether this or that publican is entitled to a greater quota than he is receiving - that is a matter for determination in the light of the facts - but I contend that when an application is made to the Department of Trade and Customs or to any other Government department, the applicant is entitled at least to reasonable, prompt, and courteous consideration of his case. The example which I shall cite to honorable members concerns a small hotelkeeper in my district. I shall be pleased to supply the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) with the man's name so that he can take the matter up if he so desires. The sequence of events has been set out by this hotel-keeper as follows : - October 10th: Wrote Collector of Customs for beer increase and enclosed certificate from secretary Canegrowers Association showing increase in association employees of 108 men. - No reply. November 13th: Wrote Collector of Customs for reply to letter of October 10th. - No reply. November 27th: Sent Collector of Customs reply-paid telegram for reply to letters October 10th and November 13th. -Reply refused increase. November 30th: Wrote Mr. Mitchell personal letter. - No reply. December 30th: Wired Collector of Customs advising 50 additional cane-cutters employed; asked for increase, January and February. January 4th, 1943: Letter received refusing request. To all his communications from the 10th October, 1942, until the 4th January, 1943, he received replies to only two " reply-paid " telegrams. The time has arrived when a stand must be taken against this sort of thing. Action must be taken to counter the increasing insolence of those individuals who, because they have been placed in a position of temporary authority, think that they can treat the public as they like. On more than one occasion I have had reason for complaint, not only in respect of the Department of Trade and Customs, but also other Government departments, and. I have drawn attention to this particular case in. the hope that Ministers will take steps to see that the interests of the public are protected in the future. The second matter to which I wish to refer relates to the claims made to the Department of the Treasury for compensation in respect of war damage to property. Fortunately, only a few such claims have arisen on the mainland, but quite a number of residents of New Guinea, particularly Rabaul, Lae and Salamaua, have lost everything, and I can only describe the treatment that has been meted out to them as " scurvy ". I have met a number of people who have lost their homes and their entire personal effects, and I propose to read to honorable members a letter which I have received from a former New Guinea resident who has made a claim to the War Damage Commission. This letter will indicate just how he has been treated. If this is an example of how other similar claims are being handled, it is time that action was taken. The claimant to whom 1 refer is Mr. H. W. Quinton, and he writes as follows: - Knowing your interest in the wellbeing of former residents of New Guinea,I am taking the liberty of approaching you in regard to the question of War Damage Insurance as it affects us. Throughout the conduct of my negotiations with the CommissionI have regarded mine as a test case so that I could pass on the benefit of my experience to those who are in like circumstances. After some correspondence with the Commission,I had an interview with Mr. Gronin, State Superintendent of Claims in New South Wales, who asked me to submit a statutory declaration to support my claim, also to obtain others from persons who were aware of conditions at Lae and of happenings there on 21st January, 1942, and afterwards. did so and submitted them to the Commission together with a letter from Burns Philp and Co. regarding thetransport of my effects fromRabaul to Lae and marine insurance. I received a communication from the Commission dated 27th November, 1942, which, interalia, stated: "I have to advise that the Commission is satisfied that the evidence submitted by yon indicates on examination, support for the sum of £208 10s. and that the damage was "war damage". This, in the opinion of the Commission,carries your claim as near to finality as can be reached at this juncture. . . . The foregoing statements are without prejudice to the right of the Commission to review, for the Commission is not disposed to formally admit liability and assess and record your claim until it is possible to inspect the damage and secure such further informationas may be procurable in the territory." I was not altogether satisfied with this reply and asked if my claim could not be recorded. The reply was : " As mentioned in my previous letter, the Commission is not, at this stage, prepared to record your claim." No direct reply was given to my question. I am of the opinion that the Commission's ruling leaves much to be desired. I have furnished them with the best evidence available, that of eye-witnesses. Apparently at a distant date in the future, some one will visit the territory to assess the damage (in all probability a person to whom New Guinea is but a name) and conduct inquiries on the spot. The evidence he will receive will be hearsay only. He will have to rely for his information on whoever happens to be in the particular area at the moment. The person or persons may not have been there when the damage took place, and any information gained from such a course would not be first-hand nor comparable with evidence such as I and others have submitted. Quinton's case is but a test case. Many ex-residents of Rabaul, Lae and Salamaua, who have lost all their possessions, have applied to the commission to have their claims recorded. They have not applied for immediate compensation. They simply want the damage recorded in the commission's books. In response to such requests they have -received red tape replies, a sample of which I have just read. Disregarding the fact that Lae, Salamaua and Rabaul will be practically obliterated when they are recaptured, the commission says that before recording any claims it will send some one to New Guinea, after the Japanese have left, in order to inspect and record the damage. Could anything be more absurd? Is it fair to keep these people in suspense until we recapture that territory ? In the meantime they will have no legal rights whatever. They are Australian citizens who acted as the custodians of our territories in the north. They are to be kept in a state of uncertainty as to what compensation they may receive as war damage. The policy of the commission should be reviewed, and a much more sympathetic and sensible approach made to matters of this kind. The commission's present attitude is unreasonable. It intends to keep these people waiting until the end of the war, whereas to-day evidence in support of claims can be obtained from witnesses who have the facts fresh in their minds, and can possibly describe the homes and furniture destroyed. After the war these witnesses will have dispersed, or may be dead. The commission will then determine, at that uncertain time in the future, the loss sustained by these persons in 1942. This matter is one of urgency to a very large number of people. I have merely cited, the Quinton case as a test case regarding the policy which the commission now intends to adopt. The Government should ensure that a more sympathetic approach is made by the commission towards such claims. 388 KX7 East Sydney ALP Minister for Labour and National Service 1 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD . - by leave - The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) and the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) referred to the ventilation of the parliamentary refreshment-rooms. Undoubtedly, Mr. Speaker, you will deal with their observations. I merely take this opportunity to indicate that, if required, the services of technical officers of the Department of Labour and National Service will be made available in the matter. The honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Jolly) and the honorable member for Melbourne asked whether it was intended to continue the publication of the A.B.C. Weekly. Until the result of the investigation now being made into that matter is made known, nothing further can be said about it. The position of the metropolitan and provincial newspapers will receive attention by the appropriate Ministers in connexion with the decision of the Government to rationalize industry in order to meet our urgent man-power requirements. That industry shall not be overlooked. 388 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - It is not out of the wood yet. 388 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The point is that the newspaper industry will not be given preferential treatment in the investigation which is being made to meet our urgent requirements of man-power. The honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) raised a very important matter concerning a review of overtime rates. He asked that a review be made of rising war costs. It is remarkable that honorable members opposite, whenever they deal with a review of costs, invariably approach the subject from the viewpoint of the wages paid to the worker, and imply that wages should he the first cost to be reduced. 389 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - I said that the wages cost was causing prices of commodities to mount disproportionately. Mr.WARD. - The honorable member implied that costs were mounting because of the payment of overtime to the workers. I ask the House to bear in mind that the workers are now obliged to work overtime and are thereby subject to industrial fatigue. They are, therefore, already making a great sacrifice in working long hours. Further, honorable members opposite are now advocating that the lower paid workers should be brought within the income tax field. To-day, the workers find that although they are working longer hours, and the amount they receive in wages is higher, they are faced with rising living costs, and, directly and indirectly, are paying more in taxes. Consequently, if there is to 'be a review of rising war costs, it should embrace all costs and not be confined merely to the wages of the workers. For instance, the Government should give prompt attention to the profits which are being earned by private enterprise in the carrying out of war contracts. 389 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - The Minister admits that a special problem has now arisen with regard to the payment of overtime in connexion with war production? 389 KX7 0 0 WARD, Edward Mr WARD - The Government always has the obligation to watch the cost of carrying on an expensive war. However, I repeat that any review of costs should not be confined merely to a section of costs but should cover the whole field. The honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Spooner) and the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Johnson) referred, to the operations of the Allied Works Council. In reply to questions this morning, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) indicated that certain inquiries would be made, and the additional information that has now been supplied , by honorable members will be brought to the notice of the right honorable gentleman so that the matters may receive full consideration. Other questions which have been raised on the motion for the adjournment will be conveyed to the appropriate Ministers, who will furnish honorable members with replies. 389 10000 0 0 NAIRN, Walter Mr SPEAKER (Hon W M Nairn - The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) and the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr.Calwell) have referred to the oppressive conditions which prevailed in the parliamentary dining-room . during the recent hot weather. 389 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Particularly as they affect the staff. 389 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - For the purpose of obtaining partial relief, application was made last November to the Department of Supply and Shipping for some mechanical fans, but I am informed that they are unprocurable, and an order for the manufacture of new fans would immediately give rise to considerations of priority. The remarks of the honorable members will be brought to the notice of the Joint House Committee which, no doubt, will be pleased to take advantage of the offer of the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) to make available technical officers of that department to advise upon an improvement of the present system. Question resolved in the affirmative. 389 Papers The following paper was presented: - Excise Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1943, No. 22 389 16:37:00 House adjourned at 4.37 p.m. 389 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 389 351 JOM 0 0 BEASLEY, John Mr BEASLEY — On the 28th January, the honorable member for Darwin (Sir George Bell) asked me whether it was a fact that the Government had acquired the mining machinery and equipment of the Mount Bischoff tin mine, and, if so, on what tennis and conditions. I am now able to inform the honorable member that this property has been resumed by the Commonwealth on a tentative basis which includes the payment to the company of an annual rental of £1,352 for the plant on the property. In addition, the Government is providing £3,000 for further development and extra equipment for the mine. These arrangements are tentative, pending consideration of a report to be submitted by the Tasmanian Department of Mines, whereupon the whole matter will be reviewed as necessary. 390 390 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - Which members of this Parliament are entitled to the sole use of a sleeping compartment when travelling by rail? When was each such member granted this privilege, and why? In view of the great difficulties being experienced by the general public in securing travel facilities, will he consider withdrawing such privilege from all members? 390 009FQ ALP 1 0 CURTIN, John Mr CURTIN Subject to 3 below — Ministers, past Prime Ministers, members of the Advisory War Council. The privilege in respect of Ministers dates back to May, 1928, and was granted to enable them to carry out official duties in private whilst travelling between capital cities. The extension of the privilege to former Prime Ministers was n;pprovcd in October, 1941, and to non-Government members of the Advisory War Council in February, 1942. In order to meet the heavy demand which frequently occurs in respect of defence personnel and persons travelling on urgent business directly associated with the war effort, the Government decided as from 14th December, 1942, to modify the travel privileges which had been extended to Ministers and others. So far as members of Parliament are concerned the unconditional reservation of sleeping berth cabins for sole use will be confined to the Prime Minister. All other reservations will be conditional and subject to accommodation being available and not required by other priority passengers travelling on essential business. On the Overland Express between Melbourne and Adelaide on which only one sleeping car is provided reservations for solo use will not be made in any circumstances. 390 390 KFW 0 0 GUY, James Allan Mr Guy asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - Will he cause the determination made by the Wheat Harvest Employment Commission, constituted under National Security Regulations by Statutory Rules 1942, No. 471, as amended by Statutory Rules 1942, No. 487. which brought harvesters of barley, rye, oats, &c. within its scope, to be suspended pending the adjustment of prices of farm products to enable farmers to pay the rates set out in the determination? 390 DTN ALP 1 0 EVATT, Herbert Vere Dr Evatt - There is no authority given under the regulations to suspend the operation of the determination in question. The question of an amendment of the regulation is a matter of Government policy, and the honorable member's suggestion will be brought before the Cabinet. 390 390 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What were the total expenses, and, separately, the commission, brokerage and other charges, paid in respect of each loan rotation since the war began? If the information desired is not yet available in respect of the Austerity Loan, will he supply that, too, at a later date? 390 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr Chifley - Inquiries are being made and a reply will be furnished as soon as possible. 390 390 JSC 0 0 BRENNAN, Frank Mr Brennan asked the Minister for Supply and Shipping, upon notice - Is it a fact that Mr. J. Malcolm Newman, Controller of Minerals Production, is financially interested in mining companies and mining syndicates, dealing in or producing essential metals? Is Mr. Newman financially interested in Alluvial Prospectors Limited, of Cathcart House, 11c Castlereagh-street, Sydney, and is this company interested in the acquisition of mining properties capable of producing essential metals? Is Mr. Newman, by reason of his position as Controller of Minerals Production, able to grant or withhold financial assistance from applicants who apply to the Commonwealth Government, and, if so, does the Minister approve of Mr. Newman's continued financial interest in mining companies and mining syndicates? What are the names of the mining companies and mining syndicates in which Mr. Newman is financially interested? How many shares and what financial interest does he hold in each mining company and mining syndicate or subsidiary of any mining company or mining syndicate? What properties have been acquired by companies or syndicates in which Mr. Newman is interested, sincehe became Controller of Minerals Production? Have, or had, any of the former owners or holders of these properties, applied to Mr. Newman, as Controller of Minerals Production, for financial assistance for development purposes, and, if so, with what result? What is the total amount of financial assistance that has been granted by the Commonwealth Government to applicants for financial assistance for mining development purposes since Mr. Newman assumed office? What are the names of the companies, syndicates, orindividuals, that have been granted assistance under the scheme administered by Mr. Newman, and the amounts granted to each, and what minerals are they producing or proposing to produce? Where are the properties located to which financial assistance has been granted? 391 JOM ALP 1 0 BEASLEY, John Mr Beasley -The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - The information sought by the honorable member in these questions is obtainable from the ordinary State Governmental Departments which record and deal with such matters. Mr. Newman, in his capacity as Controller of Minerals Production, furnishes recommendations regarding the minerals position generally. If the honorable member has any suggestion that Mr. Newman's interests in mining companies conflict with his duties to the Commonwealth and will furnish particulars, I will be only too glad to have the matter investigated. None. See reply to 6. - The location, nature and extent and quantities of minerals being produced constitute evidence of the Government's activities in this important field and it is considered inadvisable that it should be made public at this time. If the honorable member is interested in any particular aspect I will be glad to furnish particulars to him for his confidential information.