1946-07-05 17 3 2 REPS 2285 0 House of Representatives. 1946-07-05 Mr. Speaker (Hon. J. S. .Rosevear J took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 2285 Motion Motion (by Mr. Chifley) agreed to - That, the House, at its vising, adjourn to Wednesday next, at 3 p.m. 2285 Questions 2285 2285 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - Has the Prime Minister noted that the Government of Victoria is arranging for extra shifts to be worked in the brown coal-mining industry in Victoria, with, a view to adequate supplies of brown coal being produced? Could the right honorable gentleman represent to the Government of New South Wales the need for the substitution of two or three shifts for the present inadequate single shift in the industry in that State, with a view to meeting the black coal requirements of many industries as well as the Railway Departments? 2285 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - I have not seen the report mentioned. Periodically for many years, representations have been made for the working of a second shift in the coal-mining industry, not only in connexion with underground operations but also in open cuts, but it has not been possible to reach an agreement on the matter. Discussions are proceeding at the present time. I shall have a further talk with the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. McKell, in regard to it. 2285 Motion 2285 JWT Moreton 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS .- I present the fourteenth report of the Broadcasting Committee relating to the broadcasting of news, and move - That the paper be printed. In the special circumstances that exist, C desire to bring to your notice, Mr. Speaker, and to the notice of the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley), certain matters of which you should be informed. Sec tion '85 of the Australian Broadcasting Act reads - (1.) The Committee shall, subject to the provisions of .this Act, consider and report to the Parliament upon every matter affecting broadcasting in Australia or the Territories of the Commonwealth which either House of the Parliament, by resolution, refers to the Committee and upon every other such matter referred to the Committee by the Minister. (2.) The Minister shall refer to the Committee any such matter which the Commission or the body known, at the commencement of this Apt, as the Australian Federation of Commercial Broadcasting Stations requests him to refer to the Committee. The Postmaster-General, under the powers conferred on him by section S5 of the act, referred the matter of the news service to the Broadcasting Committee. The terms of reference were as f follows : - Accordingly, in pursuance of section 85 (1) of the Australian Broadcasting Act," I hereby refer to the Standing Committee on Broadcasting for consideration and report the question as to whether" approval should be given for the Commission to enter into the proposed agreements. The committee brought in a majority report and a minority report. From the majority report I quote the following: - After weighing -the evidence, we are convinced that the Commission should have adequate means to ensure sustained public confidence in its activities by all sections of the community, and we agree with the Commission that payment of a lot of money is justified to secure that confidence by removal' of aa» ground for remediable, complaint. Just as it has a special charter in the Broadcasting Act to establish groups of musicians for the" rendition of orchestra, choir and band music of high quality, so also, wo consider, it should have a special charter in the Act to establish groups of journalists for attainment of its objective of independence in the sphere of Australian news, and, as far as possible, overseas news. To that end, we recommend that the Act be amended to provide that the Commission shall, subject to the Act - establish its own independent service" in respect of Australian news; and (2 J procure its overseas news direct, through its staff abroad, from such overseas agencies as the Commission deems fit, as well as from such independent sources as the Commission deems it desirable to use. 2285 KRE 0 0 SHEEHAN, Thomas Mr Sheehan - I rise to a point of order. I understand that the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) has moved that the report be printed. Is he in order, therefore, in protesting against the report? Mr.SPEAKER (Hon. J. S.Rosevear). - I do not think that there is any point of order. When a report is tabled, and an honorable member moves that it be printed, he is entitled to speak to the motion. Of course, he may refer only to the contents of the report. 2286 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - The report continues - Pending the introduction of the legislation thus recommended, and as the Australian Broadcasting Commission already gets direct services from two overseas agencies, we suggest that the Commission should enter into negotiations with the remaining overseas agencies whose services it considers necessary. In making this recommendation, we desire to make it clear that its object is to fix responsibility on a publicly owned instrumentality, accountable to the community for selection of the news which it broadcasts; it is not intended to cast any reflection on newspapers which select news according to their judgment of what is suitable to publish or withhold either through lack of space in their journals or for any other reason which in their opinion is justifiable, but which, as shown in the evidence of the Commission's chairman, would not necessarily influence the Australian Broadcasting Commission in the exercise of its independent judgment. The majority report is signed by Senator Amour, Senator Nash, the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Bryson) and the honorable member for Adelaide (Mr. Chambers).The honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) was absent, and signed the report later. The minority report reads as follows : - We disagree with the comments and recommendations in the report for the following reasons: - '. The question of the Commission establishing independent services is not mentioned in the terms of reference, which are restricted to reporting to Parliament on " the question as to whether approval should be given for the Commission to enter into the proposed agreements ". The recommendation is not consistent with the weight of evidence presented by the Chairman of the Commission and his colleagues, and by the President of the Australian Associated Press and Australian Newspaper Proprietors Association, in favour of approval of the draft agreements. The only oral evidence against the proposals is that of the fifth Broadcasting Commissioner and the Director of News, and the former has indicated that he is prepared to accept the agreements in view of the Arbitrator's finding. The only other dissenting evidence is contained in a brief letter from the Australian Journalists Association (whose representatives were unable to attend the hearings), intimating that its attitude was expressed during the evidence on the previous draft agreements in 1944. The Australian Broadcasting Commissioners comprise a statutory body constituted under the Broadcasting Act to conduct the national service, and we feel that there should be the highest degree of confidence in their judgment of what is best for that service in the public interest, and that greater weight should be attached to their submissions than to contrary opinions. The proposed agreements are for a period of one year only, thereby affording the Commission the opportunity of giving further consideration to the question of a completely independent service, concerning which, in our opinion, as indicated in (1) , it is not competent for the Standing Committee to make a recommendation. The recommendation, if adopted, would place the onus on the Commission of carrying out a service at a cost which is largely speculative, especially as regards the overseas news, there being no conclusive evidence of the costs involved. The evidence of the General Manager shows that the newspapers have assured the Commission of their goodwill in carrying out the Australian news proposals, and, in his opinion, as well as that of four of the five Commissioners they can be satisfactorily implemented. The minority report was signed by myself as vice-chairman, Senator Herbert Hays, and the honorable members for Gippsland (Mr. Bowden) and Wilmot (Mr. Guy). Under section 85 of the Australian Broadcasting Act 1943, the functions of the Broadcasting Committee are to consider and report to the Parliament upon matters affecting broadcasting' in Australia or the territories of the Commonwealth which have been referred to it by the Parliament, and upon such other matters as may be referred to it by the Minister. The section clearly provides that the report should be made to the Parliament, and to the Parliament alone. A paragraph appeared in to-day', issue of the Canberra Times which indicates, however, that the provisions of section 85 of the act are not being observed. The paragraph reads: - The Parliamentary Labour party yesterday authorized the preparation of a bill to amend the Broadcasting Act to enable the Australian Broadcasting Commission to conduct its own independent news service. Action along these lines will be recommended by a majority of members of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Broadcasting, which will be presented to Parliament to-day. Senator Cameron told the party yesterday that he .had been informed of the committee's impending recommendations- 2287 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - That is perfectly in order. Senator Cameron is the Postmaster-General. 2287 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - The function of the committee is to report to the Parliament, and not to ignore the Parliament. The report continues - which follow an investigation into whether or not a proposed news agreement should be signed by the Australian Broadcasting Commission and the Australian Newspaper Proprietors' Association. This agreement provided for the supply of a news service by the Australian Newspaper Proprietors' Association covering overseas and local news, at a cost of £20,000 a year. From the press statement and the interjection of the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell) it is clear that the Parliament was not the first to be informed of the contents of the report, and that one or more of the members of the Broadcasting Committee acted contrary to the. provisions of section 85 of the act in making the contents of the report available to a body other than Parliament. I bring this matter to your notice, Mr. Speaker, and to the notice of the Prime Minister, so that steps may be taken to avoid a repetition of this reprehensible practice. Debate (on motion by Mr. Dedman) adjourned. 2287 Questions 2287 2287 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD - Will the Minister representing the Postmaster-General ascertain the reasons for the long delays on the Tasmanian cable service and see if they can be minimized? If the line is subject to undue pressure, will the installation of the radio link between Northern Tasmania and the mainland be expedited? 2287 BV8 ALP 1 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - I shall ask the Postmaster-General to ascertain the cause of the delays and to consider the alternative radio-telephone for the convenience of the people on the north coast of Tasmania and, I presume, islands in Bass Strait. I shall ask the Minister to supply an answer to the honorable gentleman's submissions, if possible, by Wednesday next. 2287 2287 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN - The Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs on Wednesday made a statement on the future of the cotton-growing, industry in Queensland. Does the policy involve new legislation or the continuance of the present arrangement? Is the Government's decision in accordance with the recommendations of the Tariff Board? The Government's decision means a smaller bounty than that requested by the industry. As with the existing bounty production has seriously declined, how can the Government expect the industry to continue, let alone increase production on the smaller bounty? 2287 F4U ALP 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - A bill will be introduced during the present sittings to provide for the payment of a bounty on raw cotton for five years from the 1st January, 1947. The Raw Cotton Bounty Act will expire on the 31st December, next. The Tariff Board investigated the cotton-growing industry and made certain recommendations, but the Government decided that more generous treatment should be given to the industry than was recommended by it. The Queensland Cotton Board was consulted, and I am assured that it is satisfied that what the Government is doing is in all circumstances a generous measure of assistance to the industry. I remind the honorable gentleman that in 1940, when the previous legislation was introduced,, the Government of Queensland agreed to carry out water conservation and irrigation schemes in order that cotton might be grown under irrigation. The under-production of cotton in Australia will not be overcome until we transfer the growing of cotton from the dry farming to the irrigation areas. Where cotton has been grown on irrigation areas, the production per acre has been trebled. I assure the honorable gentleman that the proposals of the Government will give most generous treatment to cotton growers, and will have the approval of the overwhelming majority of them. In my opinion, the bill will be hailed with satisfaction throughout Queensland. 2288 Miscellaneous Broadcasting of Proceedings - Appointment of Committee. Motion (by Mr. Chifley) - by leave - agreed to - That, in accordance with the provisions of the Parliamentary Proceedings Broadcasting " Act 194(5, the following members be appointed members of the Joint Committee on the Broadcasting of Parliamentary Proceedings: - Mr. Speaker, Mr. Corser, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Haylen, Mr. Holt and Mr. Sheehan. 2288 Questions 2288 Hospital Benefits 2288 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - Recently, the Prime Minister announced that an amount of £250.000 would be made available to the States for the treatment of persons suffering from tuberculosis. Many thousands of "dusted" miners will be treated in a hospital, the construction of which, in {he near future, is contemplated. When a person is undergoing treatment, he is eligible in certain circumstances to receive the invalid pension. I ask the Prime Minister whether the fact that these "dusted" miners receive mineworkers' pensions will debar them from receiving the invalid pension? 2288 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - For the diagnostic treatment of sufferers from tuberculosis, the Commonwealth Parliament agreed to provide an amount of £50,000 per annum, and the States will subsidize it on a £1 for £1 basis. The act provides also for the payment by the Commonwealth of £50,000 a year, which the States will subsidize on a £1 for £1 basis, for aftercare treatment. The amount of £250,000 per annum, which will be granted to the States, is designed to relieve families in necessitous circumstances as the result of the breadwinner having contracted the disease and being compelled to enter hospital for treatment. The exact- details of the organization - probably it will be the welfare departments of the States - which will determine what are necessitous cases and the assistance that shall be granted to them, has still to be considered by the State authorities. At the moment I cannot give any undertaking in regard to income tax concessional deductions. Legislation is being prepared in connexion with the coal-mining industry in which it will.be proposed that the delegated authority to be set up shall be enabled to take general steps in regard to dust prevention and diseases arising therefrom. I cannot say any more just now on the subject of special payments. 2288 Domestic Staffs at Mental Hospitals. 2288 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Sir Frederick Stewart Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn officially to an anomaly created by the recently, issued National Security (Female Minimum Rates) Regulations. Complaints have been made to me that under the regulations instances have occurred of subordinate members of domestic staffs in mental hospitals in New South Wales receiving higher emoluments than their supervising officers, and that it is impossible to correct this anomaly because wage-pegging provisions prevent the granting of additional payments to such supervisors. As the Commonwealth is involved in both phases of the question, I ask whether steps will be taken to consult with the State authorities with a view to the correction of the obvious anomaly? 2288 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY I know something of the circumstances mentioned by the honorable member, who has suggested that in certain hospitals the application of the minimum rates for certain females has resulted in some members of the domestic staff receiving higher pay than some members of the nursing staff. 2288 KV7 0 0 STEWART, Frederick Sir Frederick Stewart - And higher pay, also, than some supervisors of domestic staff. 2288 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - That may be so. Ishall bring the matter to the- notice of the Minister for Health and Minister for Social Services. 2289 Fats 2289 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - The Victorian division of the Meat and Allied Trades Federation arranged some time ago to collect from its members quantities of dripping for despatch to Great Britain. A total of 10 tons was accumulated. The question then arose whether, as this was a voluntary gift, a contribution should be made to the tallow equalization fund. The matter came before the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, who wrote to the federation on the 1st May that" he would give an immediate decision. As no decision had apparently been made by the end of that month I sent the honorable gentleman a telegram, dated the 30th May, asking for a speedy announcement. I have had no acknowledgment of that telegram, and, so far as I know, a decision has not yet been made. I now ask the Minister whether this is typical of the delays associated with such transactions, and whether he can tell me when a decision may be expected? 2289 KQB ALP 1 0 SCULLY, William Mr SCULLY - I did not personally receive the telegram mentioned by the honorable gentleman. It was probably received by officials of the department. I greatly regret the delay and will investigate the cause of it. I made an official statement about a fortnight ago that such gifts would be levy-free. 2289 2289 KEU 0 0 FALSTEIN, Sydney Mr FALSTEIN - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs whether it is a fact that Mr. Frank Packer, managing director of Consolidated Press Limited, the publishers of the Sydney Baily Telegraph, recently returned from abroad with a quantity of furs concealed in his luggage? Is it also a fact that officials of the Department of Trade and' Customs discovered this attempt to smuggle prohibited goods into Australia and subsequently held an inquiry into the matter? If these are statements of fact, will the Minister have a report prepared which will include the evidence taken and state the crimes disclosed? Will the report also show whether Mr. Packer could have been imprisoned for the offence 'or offences committed? 2289 F4U ALP 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - I have no knowledge of the matters to which the honorable member has referred. I shall confer with the Minister for Trade and Customs, with a view to determining whether the information sought can be supplied. 2289 2289 F4T 0 0 FADDEN, Arthur William Mr FADDEN - Will the Minister for Munitions state what technical officers have been appointed by the Aluminium Commission to investigate and carry out the proposal to establish the aluminium industry in. Australia? Will the honorable gentleman state the names of those officers, their qualifications and salaries, and the details of their experience in the aluminium industry? Will he also state whether advertisements were published calling for applications; if so, where? 2289 KLL ALP 1 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN - I shall inquire as to whether the information can be supplied and, if it can be, I shall furnish it as early as possible. 2289 Mr. Francis having asked a question based on a published statement by Mr. Justice Brennan, 2289 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon J S Rosevear - Even an eminent judge is not entitled to have his arguments on public matters expressed in the form of a question in this House. Should His Honour become a member of this House, I shall hear him. 2289 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis On a point of order, I ask whether it is competent for me, as a member of this House, to ask the. Prime Minister what action he proposes to take to terminate the threatened bloody revolution in Queensland? 2289 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - I have given many rulings on this matter. The Standing Orders clearly lay down that no debate may be introduced when a question is being asked or answered. That necessarily embraces debatable matter of which a person who is not a member of this House is the author. The introduction of such matter would clearly be an evasion of the Standing Orders. An honorable member may refer to a press article or any other matter, but in doing so he must give only the bare substance of it and not quote from it extensively. I rule that the question is entirely out of order. 2290 Bill Assent reported. 2290 Bill Second Reading Debate resumed from the- 19th June (vide page 1569), on motion by Mr. Dedman. - - That the hill be now read a second time. 2290 N76 Kooyong Leader of the Opposition 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr MENZIES . - The bill before the House is one to establish a national university at Canberra. As I propose, in the course of a few brief remarks, to offer criticism of some aspects of the proposal, it is only fair that I should begin by complimenting the Minister (Mr. Dedman) on his -interest in the problem of higher education, and the action he has taken from time to time during the last few years, particularly in respect of universities. I, for one, have the warmest regard for his approach to these matters and the work that he has been able to do. I say that at once, so as to indicate that any of my , criticisms will be in no sense merely factious. The second thing that I should like to say is that I strongly support all sound extensions of facilities for higher learning, tt follows from that, that my desire *is to see further universities established in Australia from time to time. There can be no doubt that the existing Australian universities are grossly overcrowded, and that that condition of overcrowding means very much reduced efficiency and may, unfortunately, lead in some instances to falling standards in the university itself. I know that in the University of Melbourne, which in my time had, I think, something like 1,500 undergraduates, there are now 6,000 or 7,000 undergraduates. An even more remarkable story of growth could' be told about the University of Sydney. All of these exist ing institutions, which have reached high standards by world measurement, are suffering because they have crowded classrooms and grossly overworked staffs. When there is a combination of those two things, the best aspects of university work are bound to suffer. Therefore I, for one, favour very much the seizing of the opportunity to establish new universities as the occasion offers. But when I say that, I should like to emphasize the point that, although new universities may be essential, what is even more essential is that standards should not only be maintained but also improved from year to year. There could be no worse contribution to the scholastic life, or, indeed, the general social life, of Australia, than the establishment of secondrate universities in addition to first-rate universities. A second-rate university would do a great deal of harm. The next point that I want to make is that we cannot establish a first-class university merely by passing an act of parliament or by the provision of money, though each of those things is, of course, completely essential. A considerable investigation is required, and very great preparation is needed, before a university can be established. I believe that in establishing a university we need to have,' in the first instance, a clear notion in our minds as to precisely the function that the university is to perform, and the place that it is to occupy in the total University structure of the nation.' If, for example, as in the case of Canberra, the university is to be established in a remote and small community - and Canberra is both remote and small in the sense in which I am using those words - great thought is required as to whether it ought to be an undergraduate university at all ; whether it should not begin its life as a post-graduate university, and if so, whether it should confine its activities in th'e first instance to those matters which lend themselves particularly to study in a community of the kind in which it will be established. If this is to be an undergraduate university, then I suggest that one of two things will follow: either it must become primarily a residential university, so that it may attract students from all over Australia - and that will give rise to its own prob'lems in Canberra - or, it will cater inevitably for only a small proportion of the families of civil servants established in Canberra. It will be only a small university, and as such may fail to attract the staff which will guarantee the standard of education which we are entitled to demand of a university. If, on the other hand, it is to be a postgraduate and research university, other considerations arise. The bill provides that the university, among other things, will embrace a school of medical research, a research school of physical sciences, a research school of social sciences, and a school of Pacific affairs and diplomatic studies. I believe that there are some studies that could be appropriately undertaken in Canberra.. Problems which come under the heading of Pacific affairs, including the study of foreign countries and anthropology, could very well be studied with great advantage in Canberra. Some problems of public law could be admirably studied here, and research work doneon them ; also problems of public administration, which cry aloud, particularly in Australia, to be made the subject of scientific investigation, could be studied here in. Canberra. But let us turn from that to the proposal to establish here a school of medical research. I am at a complete loss to understand how it could be thought possible to establish, in the true sense, a school of medical research in a small town where hospital facilities are necessarily ' limited. Experience all over the world has gone to show that the best medical research work is done in great medical centres where it is possible' to aggregate, not only the experience to be gained in a great hospital, hut also the work of other institutions which bear on medical research. If, for example, the Commonwealth desired to assist medical research, I have no doubt that the best way would be to make substantial grants to established medical centres in great cities like Sydney and Melbourne, rather than to take a few eminent men, and more or less isolate them in Canberra. Research involves the co-operative effort of teams of workers, and constant access to methods for the practical application and testing of theories. Victorians will remember the situation of the Melbourne General Hos pital. It has associated with it the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute, and it ought to have associated with it all the activities which bear on medical research. There would then exist a centre, not only for medical practice and treatment, but also for medical research, which might well become world famous and have a profound influence on the history of medicine. However, one cannot visualize that at any early date we can, in a place the size of Canberra, usefully carry on medical research. The same thing is true in a lesser degree, perhaps, of research into the physical sciences. I say with all goodwill that it would he a mistake to suppose that by bringing eminent scientists - Australians perhaps - from other parts of the world to Canberra and providing them with the most elaborately equipped laboratories we should be putting ourselves in line to achieve great results in research. I emphasize that research work of value is the product not of isolated thinking, but of organized thinking. Success is the result of team work, and worthwhile research cannot be clone except in the closest conjunction with all the facilities needed for testing and applying theories, week by week. I should like to know how much actual investigation has been made with a view to establishing a national university in Canberra, by whom it has been made, and the qualifications of those who made it. The only memorandum which I have seen in connexion with this matter - and I grant that many memoranda may existwithout my having seen them- - was published on the 27th May of this year in the. University Gazette, which is produced for university circulation, and contains uni- versify information. In this number, there is printed a memorandum directed by the chairman, of the Australian ViceChancellors Committee, Mr. Medley, to the Prime Minister on the problem of research, and it contains some criticism of the proposal to establish a national university in Canberra. Parliament itself is entitled to know what investigation has been made into the matter, and what are the results achieved. Much detailed work must have been done, and I have no doubt that the Minister will be able, when he replies, to give us some information on the point. In his second-reading speech on the bill, he.said that £872,500 would be provided for building. That is a precise amount, and it seems to indicate that some definite conclusions have been arrived at in regard to the proposed building.' He further stated that £325,000 a year would ultimately be granted each year for the maintenance of the university. I invite Hie Minister to give particulars of how these sums are made up, because that would show much better than does the bill itself the precise nature of the proposed establishment. The great needs in Australian universities are more facilities and greater encouragement for research work. Those who have been associated with universities in Australia and are interested in what they are doing have long since been oppressed by the- fact that the university staffs are far too much engaged in the work of teaching and too little engaged in the work of research. A man whose whole- time is occupied by the demands of teaching large university classes may, unless he be a superman find himself becoming rusty in his own business, because his lectures are of necessity - using the word in a comparative sense - .elementary. He is there to teach students the elements, whether the lower elements or the higher elements, of what lie is discussing. If he is to continue as the really inspired master and leader of his students his own mind must never get into a groove. By research and examination of new problems he must maintain a fresh mind- so that, he may give real guidance to those who come under his influence. His task is one of the most profound authority and importance. In our universities to-day the facilities that the lecturer has for research are extraordinarily limited. They are limited primarily, at times, by the demands made on his services for other purposes. All universities have been troubled by this matter. They have to realize that they should have at their command much larger sums of money in order to establish research chairs in the various faculties, and to maintain under the guidance of the deans of the faculties constant attacks upon new problems, whether they be problems of science, of law, or related to the various schools of what we call the humanities. It would be a great pity if we were to concentrate unduly upon establishing new research institutes at theexpense of those already established and. urgently in need of funds. Let me say at once that that is not an argument - against the establishment of such a university as is proposed in relation to thosematters which, in the first instance, can be best compressed in Canberra; birt it is an argument against mere duplication, for duplication's -sake. I direct attention to a few paragraphs in the memorandum forwarded by Mr. Medley, Vice-Chancellor of the Melbourne University, to the Minister for Post-war. Reconstruction(Mr. Dedman). The memorandum was compiled by him as chairman of the Australian Vice-Chancellor's Committee, consisting of the vice-chancellors of all Australian universities. So it is not merely an individual expression of view ; it expressesthe view of all of the universities of Australia. I shall not read the whole document, but I should like to quote a few important paragraphs which, I believe, should be put on record. Mr. Medley says - Apart from training research workers, the pursuit of now knowledge is an essential part of a university's contribution to a community. Facilities for original work should therefore be readily available to members 'of the teaching staff who are gifted in this direction, as well as to others who may be appointed in any field as full-time' research workers. In the absence of active research, teaching itself becomes sterile. In the Australian universities at present the volume of research is inadequate to ensure the efficiency of the teaching function. That, I believe, is profoundly true, though it is equally disturbing. He continues - It is only to the Commonwealth that the universities can look for adequate financing of research. The State Government wilL inevitably continue to concentrate to a large extent on subsidizing the teaching activities of the university, and there can be little hope in the' future of substantial assistance for any purpose coming from private 'benefactors. It is only by increasing the finances available for the development of post-graduate schools in all Australian universities that first-class research workers can be retained in Australia or attracted to come to Australia from elsewhere. It is strongly and unanimously 'recommended by all universities that- the right system for providing funds for research is one whereby the Government would make a general grant for research of all kinds to be used by the universities according to their own judgment in prosecuting research, and training workers in all fields. Such a block grant should, in the universities' view, be allocated as between universities by the ViceChancellors' Committee at its unfettered discretion. Then, later on, he says - It is the unanimous opinion of all universities that a method of financing research m the other universities through institutes to bo. founded as part of the national university would not in general be- satisfactory. Those words have been carefully chosen; they represent . the view of men who are, after all, experts in this field, and they are views which we are bound to take into very earnest consideration. I have no doubt that the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction will be able to throw a good deal of light on these matters, because I know he has devoted much time to this, and I give him credit for it. I invite the honorable gentleman to take us into his confidence as to the progressive steps contemplated in the establishment of this university. [ would have much preferred that the bill should not endeavour at this stage to say what institutes are to be established or what departments of knowledge are to be pursued. I would have thought it would have been far better to establish a highly competent council and entrust to the council the work of determining what will be the first, second and third steps. If we imagine we will be able to produce a fullblown university in Australia in a year or two we are making a great mistake. It is the first step that will count. Let us take that step by all means. But let us concentrate in the first place on the things that could be better studied here than anywhere else in Australia, and, as the university grows, let it expand as the population and facilities of the city expand until it- reaches out into every department of knowledge. May .1 conclude by commenting on two matters which I agree are quite minor. The first of them is that [ confess to a mild feeling of horror at the thought that we are to establish in Canberra a university which we propose to call the Australian National University. Why should not this be the Canberra University? I cannot imagine anybody becoming extraordinarily enthu siastic about the proposed title. If institutions of this kind are to be real, and not merely scientific shops, they must, develop some esprit de corps, their own character and colour, and make their own mark upon those who pass through them. In order to achieve this I suggest strongly that this disembodied title which it is proposed to confer " on the university should be dropped in favour of one with a good deal of reality. My other minor comment is that I was very pleased to hear the Minister say in his second-reading speech that the buildings of a university of this kind must he of distinction. With that sentiment. I am entirely in agreement. But I was a little dashed when I heard him say that the buildings should be in harmony with the general architectural features of Canberra, because I confess that I regard Canberra for the most part as an architectural abomination! The building that we are in now, although pleasant enough inside, looks externally like nothing other than a chocolate factory. We have adopted in Canberra, for some reason that I can never understand, architecture of a flat, squashed type that is completely out of "harmony with what ought to be. Let us make up our minds that this being the Australian capital city, with institutions of various kinds like the National Library, a national university, or whatever name it .may go by, we shall establish in Canberra buildings of real permanence and beauty. I hope that the Canberra university buildings will not consist of squashed, pork-pie-like buildings of the type that at present disfigure. Canberra. In a. private capacity I arn prepared to. give distinguished advice to anybody at any time oil how the buildings should be designed. All. I can say now is that the university, which I hope is to be established to endure for ever, ought to be not only a place where scholarship is at the highest level, not only a place at which inspiring human beings will be brought in conjunction with other .malleable human beings for the production of great citizens, but also a place which, like all great universities of the world, will give a touch of beauty to the memory of those who pass through it. I support the hill,' but I have ventured those few criticisms in the belief that we should all desire that the university should be permanently established in the best way. 2294 JF7 Fremantle 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY .- The Australian National University Bill marks the third stage of the Common- wealth Government's entry into the field of education. The first was the establishment of the Commonwealth Office of Education, which will allocate financial assistance to the States .for general education purposes. The second was the establishment of the Universities Commission, which will provide assistance to students who otherwise could not afford a higher education. This step is the third. Many years ago, . some 200 acres of the Australian Capital Territory was set aside for the establishment of a university. So other governments have envisaged the establishment of a university at Canberra, but the present Government is to be congratulated that it has taken practical steps to bring the plan into being. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) has voiced- the concern of the vice-chancellors of the Australian universities that the" allocation of £325,000 a year to the new university may be at the expense of Commonwealth assistance already being given to the States. He conveyed to my mind - and I do not know whether he intended to or whether it was obtuseness on my part - that there was opposition by the vice-chancellors to the university. "What he said about Professor Medley did convey the impression that he is opposed to it, but there is at least one vice-chancellor on whoso behalf the right honorable gentleman did not speak, the vicechancellor of the university of "Western Australia, Professor Currie, who said - I am very interested indeed in the whole project of the university at Canberra, and I am quite sure that if it is established on the lines recommended it will add very considerably to the quality of research and education generally in the Common wealth. Then Professor Currie went to express a fear of a reduction of the expenditure on State universities. I congratulate the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) on the careful research which has taken place in this matter and also on the. men from the various State universities employed to make it. The committee that made recommendations on the School of Social Science,- for instance, consisted of Sir Robert Garran, Professor S. J. Butlin, Professor P. Alexander, Dr. K. S. Cunningham, Dr. Ian Hogbin, Professor G. "W. Paton and Professor G. L. 'Wood. The committee which reported on the physical sciences consisted of the following, distinguished people - Dr. R. Woolley, Sir J. P. Madsen, Dr. F. W. White, Dr. G. H. Briggs and Dr. D. F. Martyn. The schools named in clause 7 of the bill - a school of medical research, a research school of physical sciences, a research school of social sciences and a school of Pacific "affairs and diplomatic studies - merit some consideration. The Leader of the Opposition dwelt on the question of research. He said that it was essential that research should not take place in an isolated community like Canberra but that in medical research, for instance, immediate access to large hospitals was important. I think he exaggerates the isolation of Canberra. There are two matters to be considered when discussing research. The various committees of experts differentiated sharply between them. The first is the training of graduates in techniques of post-graduate research. Research is a matter for special training in itself. Most of the committee were seised of the fact that undergraduate students are to a very large .degree recipients of actual teaching, almost in the high school sense. The' technique of research is not developed. If you are to have research workers to go on with new research, there must be, as the right honorable gentleman said, some establishment for training in research methods. Most of the committees thought that this university would be a good place for that purpose, particularly because the State universities are heavily overloaded, as the right honorable gentleman said, with teaching, so" that training in them in the techniques of research is somewhat difficult. I do not wish to exaggerate that difficulty, but I do say that there is a strong case for the establishment of research institutions where there will be no teaching load upon the staff. The right honorable gentleman said that Canberra was too isolated for independent research, but I really think that he exaggerated that difficulty. Sydney Universtiy is about half an hour away from the Sydney Hospital. 2295 JLZ 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr Anthony - The Royal Prince Alfred Hospital is within its grounds. 2295 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - It does not matter if it is within five or ten minutes' walk. If in a laboratory an independent research worker encountered problems in medicine that he wished to study in a hospital he would have to spend a considerable time in a hospital. Two hour's flight from Canberra will take him to Sydney. He will probably be absent from Canberra for two weeks while conducting his research, in the same way as he would be absent for two weeks from the Sydney University. The criticism which the right honorable gentleman directed at the establishment of the national university in Canberra was in the nature of hairsplitting. Other matters associated with the establishment of this university deserve attention. Turning to other fields of science, we find that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research is already established here, so that an opportunity exists to co-ordinate the fields of study in which that institution is engaged, and the work of the new national university. The same remark applies to the School of Forestry in the Australian Capital Territory, and in the field of astrophysics, to the Mount Strom lo Observatory. In fact, previous governments founded a research colony in the Australian Capital Territory. Evidently, they did not consider that Canberra was too isolated for research. The establishment of this new university will add another research field here. I turn now to the schools mentioned in the bill. The School of Medical Research, even were it another medical faculty not engaged in post-graduate work and were solely confined to under-graduate work, is vitally necessary. The students of the University of Western Australia, who do first year medicine in that university and cannot complete the degree there, at present are unable to find room in the universities of the eastern States to continue their studies. Therefore, if, in time, this national university were to relieve some of the existing gross overcrowding in the universities of the eastern States, the establishment of its medical school would be justified on that ground alone, because the existing facilities for medical teaching and research in Australia are quite inadequate. In addition, there is the School of Social Sciences. The Committee on the Social Sciences met jointly on a number of occasions with the committee that was studying problems associated with the School of Pacific Affairs and Diplomatic Studies. 2295 N76 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr Menzies - Where are those reports ? 2295 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - I have them here. 2295 N76 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr Menzies - They have not been distributed to honorable members. 2295 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - No, the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Western Australia forwarded them to me. I received them personally. 2295 N76 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr Menzies - It would be a good idea if the Minister could make them available to honorable members generally. 2295 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - I presume that the Minister did not intend them to be available. The joint committee recommended that the research work, and the School of Pacific Affairs and Diplomatic Studies and the School of Social Sciences should be directed to the following. Research - Economic - Trade, living standards, nutrition, production methods, resources, markets. political and social development and problems. cultural studies - anthropology, languages, history. administration of colonial territories - health, education, agriculture. geographical studies - geography, climate, transport, geology. That is a most suggestive series of headings. 2295 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr Blain - Are those particular studies for students who have not the ability and brains to study the higher mathematical sciences ? 2295 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - These particular subjects recommended for study will prove valuable in training administrative personnel for Australia's colonial administration and diplomatic corps, since we have already committed ourselves to the establishment of a considerable diplomatic corps abroad, and since we are taking more seriously our responsibilities as a colonial power. The Government, no matter how enlightened its policy may be, must have adequately trained personnel to administer it. Otherwise, the Government will find that its policy will not be applied. The British Government should be our model in this respect. For a long period of time it has been improving the calibre of its colonial admin-is- trators and diplomatic corps. If this university is established on sound lines it can do the same for the Australian community. The kind of students whom the joint committee envisaged for theresearch School of Social Sciences, and the School of Pacific Affairs and Diplomatic Studies, were as follows: - Colonial administrative officers, diplomatic cadets, central administrative officers, teachers, missionaries, foreign public servants and students. 2296 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr Blain - That will be the principal purpose of the university. 2296 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr BEAZLEY - 1 note that the amendments forecast by the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction include the following new clause: - (2.) The Governor-General may, by proclamation, determine that fees shall not be payable by students of the university and, while the proclamation is in force, fees shall not be so payable. If that foreshadows an intention to open this university to talent, I congratulate the honorable gentleman upon that provision. The correspondence that I have received from the University of Western Australia shows that there can be a two-way relationship between this national research- university and the State universities. If the State universities are adequately financed by the Commonwealth and State governments they will produce students of a higher calibre, who - can be the' research students of the national university. Again, if this university is adequately financed and conducted, it can provide for the State universities .teaching personnel who are thoroughly versed in research techniques, and will thus improve State standards. In my opinion, this is a progressive measure. The Leader of the Opposition has conjured up a great many invalid objections. The establishment of this university will be immensely beneficial to -Australian education, and I congratulate the Minister upon the bill. Mr. WHITE (Balaclava) [11.48 J.The Parliament will applaud the fact that the Commonwealth Government is taking a greater interest, in education. For years, education in Australia has been starved, and the standards are not. good. All political- parties in this Parliament have realized that fact, and have urged the granting of assistance, but it is most important to decide how that assistance shall be given. This proposal, to establish, at great expense, a university iii Canberra deserves close scrutiny and analysis. I personally think it is too ambitious. A great university cannot be created by the mere passage of this bill. The world-famed, universities of Oxford and Cambridge had their origins, in the earliest culture and history of England. Provincial universities such as those of Manchester and Leeds, and the University of London, cannot be compared, with; Oxford and Cambridge. Neither could a university, established in Canberra compare in prestige with the older universities of the Australian capital cities, especially those of Melbourne and Sydney, which ha.v,e long and honorable records. When the Empire Medical Convention was held in Australia in 1934, the Melbourne centenary year, visiting leadersof medical science from overseas were pleasantly surprised by the standards of the great medical schools of Melbourne and Syd.ney, which they regarded as equal to anything in the world. Surely no onewould suggest that a university at Canberra could overtake these older universities in prestige, however much money might be spent upon it. Whilst there is scope for specialized study in Canberra, in, say public .administration, anthropology, Pacific affairs, diplomatic subjects, .and subjects related to activities of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, other aspects of this proposal need consideration. I shall mention one that has not so far been referred to in the debate, although I suggested it in 1932, when the Royal Military College was being removed from Canberra to Sydney, and, in fact, seemed likely to be abolished altogether by the Labour Administration in office at that time. I proposed then that the activities of the Royal Military College should be enlarged and put on the basis of the West Point Academy of the United States of America, in which students are accepted for both civil and military studies. That policy could be applied to Duntroon with advantage. Our Royal Military College has a first-class and world-wide reputation. For some years in succession it was the Empire's leading military college, winning the Laverty Cup. The college has produced many excellent graduates. I can see no reason why its curriculum should not be enlarged to cater for students who desire to pursue both military and civil studies. The present four-year course includes a number of university subjects in which students are taken almost to graduation standard, and I can see no reason why the West Point Academy practice should not be applied to it. If that were done, students would obtain a valuable education in military affairs, and even if they decided ultimately not to follow a military career they would be a reserve, and would have received training which, in the event of war occurring, would make them eminently suitable for staff positions. Persons so trained are urgently required in time of war. The Royal Military College at Duntroon is known in some countries for its achievements, where even the Commonwealth Parliament is not known. That may sound like an exaggerated statement, but it is not. I could refer to many distinguished graduates from Duntroon. General Vasey was one 'qf the first graduates from the college. He filled many posts in World War I. as a staff and artillery officer, and during World War II. he commanded the 7th Division and rendered _ distinguished service in Greece, Crete, and New Guinea. He met an untimely end in an unfortunate air force crash in Queensland. I call to mind also WingCommander Wackett who studied at Duntroon. In his spare time he graduated in science and engineering, and later played a very big part in aircraft manufacture in Australia. He left the service to become first manager of the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation. We all know of his achievements in aircraft design and production, which were a big factor in the defence, of this country^ Air Commodore Macauley, who is Deputy Chief of Air Staff, is another notable graduate from Duntroon, and I could mention many others. I cannot see why this excellent institution, which is already established at Canberra, should not be enlarged so as to include not. only studies in strategy, military tactics "and the like, which are so necessary now that time and space have been annihilated, by atomic warfare and aviation, but also other studies such as those provided at West Point Academy. I am surprised that the vice-chancellors of the various Australian universities did not, in their report, comment upon the West Point practice. I understand that the proposed national university at Canberra is intended to provide not only for studies in public administration, anthropology, diplomacy and the like but also for undergraduates generally. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) has stated, from his wide experience, this latter requirement would mean that the new university would have to meet the needs and amenities of young people coming to Canberra, and this city, after all, is remote from- other centres of research. It would be impossible, for example, to establish a first-rate medical school here. I suppose that the younghonorable member from Fremantle (Mr. Beazley) would not advocate that undergraduates from the University of Western Australia should be brought to Canberra to study in what, in the early stages at any rate, must, be a second-rate institution. What has the honorable member to say on that point? 2297 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr Beazley - I do not consider that it would- be necessary to bring undergraduates here from Western Australia. The Minister for Post-war Reconstruction, has intimated that the new university would provide post-graduate courses. 2297 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - The Minister, in his second-reading speech, said - While the university is intended to be primarily a post-graduate research university, it is nevertheless recognized that facilities must be made available in Canberra to meet the increasing needs for undergraduate studies and for special training for officers of government departments. 2297 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Why does the honorable gentleman assume that a medical faculty is to be provided ? 2298 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - I did not have medical science particularly in mind. 2298 JF7 0 0 BEAZLEY, Kim Mr Beazley - The honorable gentleman is advancing a reductio ad absurdum argument. Because some provision may be made for undergraduates in the proposed new university, it does not necessarily follow that undergraduates would be brought here from Western Australia. The undergraduates that would be catered for would be those already in or near the Australian Capital Territory. 2298 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - Then, apparently, this is to be a university for the children of civil servants at Canberra. If that be so, the honorable gentleman's arguments are completely overthrown. That would mean that a university is to be established of the type of the provincial universities of the United States of America, where men and women would be enabled easily to obtain degrees of a low standard which would not be granted by the more important universities. 2298 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Why must the honorable gentleman always belittle his own country? 2298 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - That is a sorry interjection to come from the Minister for Information. The honorable gentleman was not in the chamber when I made my suggestion, but he is' so full of unreliable verbosity that he must interject. Whilst I approve of government expenditure on education, I contend that the way in which the money is expended should be scrutinized. In the United States of America, West Point Academy, of which the Royal Military College at Duntroon is the Australian equivalent, caters for the civil as well as the military side of education. We have a splendid foundation on which to build at Duntroon. It should be so developed that its graduates would be equipped to choose civil avocations if there were no future for them in the permanent military service. 2298 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - What has that to do with the university? 2298 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - If the Minister cannot appreciate the point that I am making he i= hopeless. The bill provides that the proposed university shall, subject to the statutes, award and confer degrees and diplomas. That could be done at Duntroon. 2298 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - What the honorable gentleman desires is that the university shall be established at Duntroon. 2298 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - It is futile to address the Minister, who has never had any association with the fighting services, and is unable to appreciate that a military institution gives a thorough education to its graduates. It is a pity that he has not had the benefit of compulsory military training. By some means or other, he has been able to escape the experience that would have fitted him to follow intelligently what I am saying. If the aim be to bring- greater lustre to Canberra, there are other means of doing it. The train service to this city is the most archaic that could be imagined. The Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward), who is in charge of the scheme for the standardization of the railway gauges of Australia, has not succeeded in providing a service to Canberra that would do credit to Patagonia or Bulgaria. This city must be developed, because it is the Federal Capital, whether we like it or not. Its communications and amenities must be improved. Our air services are good, and they would remain so if they were not nationalized. If our airports were improved, this city would be brought into closer touch with the rest of the continent, and much of its present isolation would disappear. Western Australia also is isolated from the rest of the continent. It is farther from the eastern States than is New Zealand ; consequently, it suffers disabilities. The time taken to reach Canberra from Melbourne by rail is longer than is taken to fly across the Atlantic Ocean from England to America. If a. university is to be established here, buildings worthy of thecity should be erected. An addition to the foundations already so well and truly' laid at Duntroon would be worth while. Whatever is done should be an ornament to Canberra. Approaching this- city by air, one sees whitewashed .buildings that are reminiscent of Arab structures in Mesopotamia. This House of Parliament has no architectural beauty outside, although it is comfortable enough inside. Before the Government incurs the proposed expenditure on the establishment of a national university in Canberra, it should consider whether it would not be better to make larger grants to the universities already established iri the States, whose needs are very great. The University of Melbourne is establishing a branch on Air Force property at Mildura. Hundreds of young people will have to live there in huts, because the Melbourne University has not sufficient space in Melbourne to acter for them. The location is not a. good one and the conditions for study will be very difficult. If a camp site had to be used, one nearer to Melbourne, such as Somers, should have been chosen. My alternative proposal for Canberra could be made ancillary to the scheme that the Government .has propounded. "When the Royal Military College was removed from Duntroon in 1932, and placed in an unsuitable environment in Sydney, where it appeared to be in danger of a complete eclipse, I initiated a proposal for its restoration and expansion in Canberra. The late General Vasey made a report on Duntroon, in which he recommended such a scheme. I doubt whether Ministers have read it. If they have not, they should study it, because it enunciates progressive ideas which, if adopted, would do much good for our future defence, and certainly for education. 2299 JLL New England 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr ABBOTT . - I congratulate the Minister (Mr. Dedman) upon having Introduced this bill to establish a national university at Canberra; it is a step forward in the development of higher education in Australia. Birt it is to be regretted that the scheme is being undertaken in a piece-meal fashion. A hill for the assistance of higher education throughout the Commonwealth, embodying provisions for the establishment of a university at Canberra, would have been infinitely better. The object of the measure is to establish an institution that will, be principally devoted to research work. I take it that the majority of students to be trained will be residents of Canberra, supplemented by a number drawn from the rural areas from Goulburn southward. Therefore, it is likely that this university will not become a large institution, like those that are established in the capital cities. The advantages of that will be very great. The development of education in the Common- wealth appears to be proceeding along the line of assistance by the Australian Government to higher education, the States undertaking more and more the function of education in the schools, and to some extent in the universities. Probably, the. Commonwealth will advance more and more-on the field of university education, by assisting the States with grants of money, because the States are largely restricted as to the amount which they can expend on education, on account of their having been denied the right to levy, income tax and to exploit other avenues for the production of revenue. Popular education will advance in the States, probably at the expense of higher education. In New South Wales, the extension of the higher education facilities to rural areas is being opposed. I am keenly interested in the sole rural university college outside the capital cities in the Commonwealth, the New England University College at Armidale. An endeavour is being made to obtain automony for it, and to have on the New England Tablelands the only university in Australia outside the capital cities; but every obstacle is being placed in the way, apparently by - the Government of New South Wales, and, I believe, by the Senate of the University of Sydney, although it claims to be in favour of the proposal. One can understand the objections of the members of the University Senate. They probably consider that if this university were given autonomy a considerable proportion of the funds that are available in New South Wales for the development* of higher education might be diverted from the University of Sydney and distributed among rural universities. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) particularly stressed that in the existing universities it was. practically impossible for the professors to devote adequate time to research. He asserted that they were chiefly engaged in teaching, and claimed that that prevented them from doing essential research. In all the universities, the administrative work placed on the shoulders of the professors prevents them from devoting the time that is needed, not only to teaching, but also to research. I believe that in the general scheme for the expansion of education throughout the Commonwealth the more rural universities there are the better will be the work thatis done. In the New England University College, the average attainments of the undergraduates who enter it upon obtaining a Leaving Certificate has not been up to the standard of the undergraduates who enter the Sydney University, but upon graduation it has been higher. I consider that to be due to the fact that the teaching staff there comes into more intimate contact with the students because of the smaller numbers with which they have to deal, and also because they are able to undertake a considerable amount of research. That work is growing, and original work is being undertaken, particularly in respect of the history of Australia. According to clause 6 the functions of the university shall include the following: - To encourage, and provide facilities for post-graduate research and study, both generally and in relation to subjects of national importance to Australia; Clause7 is as follows : - The university may establish such research schools as are deemed desirable, including - a research school of physical sciences ; a research school of social sciences; and a school of Pacific affairs and diplomatic studies. The bill says nothing about the establishment of research schools for the study of problems associated with the primary industries, either agricultural or pastoral. Notwithstanding that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research in Canberra does research into rural problems, I. believe that facilities should be provided at the national university for co-ordinating the results of research in other institutions, and also for doing original research. Sir Albert Howard, in Air Agricultural Testament, protests against what he calls the " compartmenting" of agricultural research, particularly in India and other parts of the British Empire. The same weakness is discernible in regard to research into the pastoral industry of Australia. Many scientists are carrying on individual researches into particular problems, but no facilities exist for the interchange of knowledge or for the co-ordination of effort. The national university should provide such facilities. It is a strange thing that here in Canberra, on the very soil where Farrar performed his monumental work in connexion with the development of the wheat industry, it should be proposed to establish a university that will not concern itself in any way with research into agricultural and pastoral problems. The universities in the State capital cities are at present grossly overcrowded. The normal capacity of the Sydney University is 3,600, but there are at present some 9,000 students enrolled there. In such circumstances, it is extremely difficult for students to receive the instruction to which they are entitled. The Commonwealth has made grants to the New England University. College for the building of lecture rooms and laboratories, but so far it has declined to give any assistance towards the provision of hostels for the accommodation of students. If it is proposed that the Commonwealth shall enter the field of higher education, Ministers should realize that the rural universities provide the best facilities for education, and enable the best research work to be done, because they are less crowded, and the atmosphere is more conducive to work and study. The Commonwealth Government should Continue its interest in higher education, and make grants to the States to enable them to found and maintain rural universities, such as the institution at Armidale. This would encourage the decentralization of educational activity, and enable students to pursue their studies free from the distractions of a large city. 2300 JPT Northern Territory 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN . - I am at a great disadvantage in addressing myself to this bill. Because I am not a university graduate, I cannot speak with the same intimate knowledge of these matters as can the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) and the honorable member forFremantle (Mr. Beazley). After I matriculated, I had a 4½-lb. axe and a No. 5 shovel put into my hands, and was told to bury the shovel in the soil up to the maker's name. I learned in the hard way. Nevertheless, I gained an acquaintance with higher mathematics, spherical trigonometry, astronomy and geodesy in the course of my work, which brought me into touch with some of the sciences. 2301 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Did the honorable member ever study political science? 2301 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - That is a matter which is troubling me, and a good many of the people of Australia at the present time. The bill describes this proposed institution as the " Australian National University but", as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, it should be called the " Canberra University ". I am surprised that the present Government, which is becoming more and more international in its outlook, should have used the word " national " to describe the university. It is. proposed to establish a school of political science, and no doubt it will be placed under the direction of the very persons who are doing their best to dilute the idea of nationalism. That they are so engaged was evident from their talk at the last Summer School of Political Science, which was held at Orange. They have turned their backs on the AngloSaxon tradition, and have become international in their outlook. 2301 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The Labour party is the only truly national party in this country. 2301 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN -I disagree with the Minister. Clause 7 of the bill states - The university may establish such Research Schools as are deemed desirable, including - A Research School of Physical Sciences ; A Research School of Social Sciences; and A School of Pacific Affairs and Dip lomatic Studies. With the first two proposals I amin agreement, and concerning the third I shall have something to say later. The fourth proposal is important, because we are regarded by many as an appendage of Asia. The doctrine of Asia for the Asiatics is being increasingly advocated bya great many people. It was preached by the Japanese who made many converts, and they failed to achieve their purpose completely only because of their cruelty, ruthlessness and domineering manner. However, the fire still smoulders, so I approve of the proposal to establish a school of Pacific affairs and diplomatic studies in which problems associated with our relations with neighbouring countries may be investigated. It is well that we should send students to northern areas to study those inferior peoples, and try to raise them to the level of the Anglo-Saxons. However, we should not lose our heads about it, as the Governmentseems to be doing. I am sory that I cannot agree with the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), who advocated that more money should be expended in northern New South Wales, on the establishment and maintenance of rural universities.I believe that we should begin with the provision of facilities for secondary education. In the high schools that students should be culled ruthlessly, before ever they go to theuniversity. In my opinion, New England is already over-supplied with educational facilities as compared with other parts of Australia. Before I went overseas during the war,. I visited northern New South Wales,. giving recruiting talks, and Ihad an opportunity to observe the educational facilities existing there. Immediately I finished in the north,I went to Wollongong, on the South Coast, and was struck by the lack of educational facilities as compared with those in the area I had just left. It is possible for a member of Parliament to be too good a member in the interests of his own district. Government supporters will probably not agree with me in that, because they are always talking to their electorates. It is certain that the more thickly populated areas are over-supplied with amenities as compared with the outlying areas. It would be hard for me to become too good a member, becausethe Northern Territory has been so neglected in the past that it would take years of strenuous and successful advocacy to bring it up to the level of other communities. Therefore, I take the honorable member for New England to task for advocating the expenditure of more money in the nearer rural areas, rather than in themore distant areas, which are practically without facilities of any kind. We know that when a member of a State Parliament becomes a Minister he is tempted to spend money lavishly in his own electorate. That is. why New England enjoys so many facilities. In this I am not criticizing any particular party. The members of all parties do the same when they are in power. I. know that wooden bridges, which had still 30 years of life in them, have been pulled clown and replaced by concrete bridges, simply because the Minister in power was able to have it done. In contrast to the facilities available in many parts of Australia conditions in Darwin are deplorable. Children are sitting cross-legged on the school floors, as the Japanese used r.o make their prisoners sit. There is no furniture in the school, and few facilities for teaching'. The position is the same at Tennant Creek, Pine Creek and Katherine; and yet the Government proposes to expend hundreds of thousands of pounds on providing a university in Canberra, which is already well supplied with educational facilities. The facilities proposed to be provided by this bill should be extended to those who live in the outlying areas of Australia. 2302 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr Chambers - What government was responsible for the large expenditure of money on the native quarters at Larakia ? 2302 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - No less than £50,000 was wasted at Laraki a. 4 miles out of Darwin, in an attempt to provide what some anthropologist thought would be better conditions for the natives ; but when the work was completed the natives stayed in their mla-mlas, leaving the building to their dogs. On the advice of another anthropologist this Government proposes to expend £118,000 on the establishment of a model native village at Port Moresby. What superfluity of silliness, having regard to the failure of the Larakia experiment ! The Government will not accept the advice of those who have lived among the natives all their lives ; it is dominated by anthropologists and other "hooey" scientists. Clause 7 of the bill provides that the proposed Australian National University may establish, amongst other things, a research school of social sciences. No doubt, provision for such a school has been inserted in the bill as the result of the influence exerted on the Government by the " rat-bags " who attend the meetings of the Summer School of Political Science. In 1937 I attended the sessions of that school at the Albert Hall,- Canberra, and was amazed at the " rat-bag " theories advanced by some of the speakers. Yet some of them are now senior officers of the Commonwealth Public Service. One of them is now chairman of a committee which has been appointed to advise the Government on the development of the Northern Territory. I have every* respect for the views of highly qualified technical men-, and of those trained in the orthodox sciences, but I have no time for the views of graduates in the pseudo sciences, who dominate this Government, and I shall oppose their interference in the progress of thi3 country with the utmost vigour. Just imagine a man with the scientific, engineering and educational attainments of Mr. Kemp, the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works in Queensland, and one of the foremost engineers of this country, having to play " second fiddle " to economists trained in the Summer School of Political Science! We shall be committing a great evil if we permit the Australian National University to be dominated by the pseudoscientific " hill-billies ", of whom this Government appears to be so fond. Unless we cull out those misguided " rat-bags " the university will produce many disappointed young men whose educational background will be so unrealistic as to render them unfit to take an important part in the work and affairs of this country. It would be far better to train them as artisans than to allow them to waste their time over these pseudo sciences. What is the reaction of educationists to the teachings of these pseudo-experts? Mr. A. J. Tout, president of the Public Service Asociation of New South Wales, is reported in the Sydney Morning Herald of the 6th April to have questioned whether teachers were being properly trained at our colleges and universities. Mr. Tout asked- whether university professors as we know them, in this country and in others, are real teachers or learned clowns, political fools, or pseudo-experts. He is reported to have said - Don't forget the professors are the product of government systems which seem to be steadily drifting away from real culture. Those words of wisdom should be cut in granite and painted in gold. Many young men leaving our universities to-day will be fertile ground for the spread of imported ideologies. When they grow up they will be opposed to organized government as we know of it in this country, and no doubt will be nourished carefully by the envoys of the Soviet who live in our midst. Such young men have no firm foundation of learning which would enable them to discern the obvious defects of imported ideologies. I am amazed to find in these days, when technical science is to the fore in the minds of the peoples of the world, an age which has witnessed the advent of the atomic bomb, that no provision is made in this bill for the establishment of research schools in mining engineering, metallurgy and geology. Only recently a noted scientist in England chastised the peoples of the British Empire for not making a coordinated geological test of its boundless resources. This Government has done nothing to develop the mineral resources of this country. Whilst it is prepared to waste money on futile attempts to alter the native way of life purely at the whim of anthropologists, it will do nothing to exploit the known resources of this country. Its policy is to neglect the known and concentrate on the unknown. In the name of sanity and decency let us abandon this stupidity and make provision in this bill for the establishment of research schools in the important branches of science to which I have referred. Sitting suspended from 12.42 to 2.15 p.m. 2303 JWR Adelaide 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS .- I compliment the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) on the introduction of this bill for an act to establish and incorporate a university in the Australian Capital Territory. I only regret that it is not possible for him to introduce a measure for the nationalization of the Australian education systems. Education is one of the most important aspects of the life of any people. Unfortunately for Australia, we have six conflicting systems of education in the States. Perhaps the establishment of the Australian National University will be the first step towards a national education system. I was impressed by some of the remarks of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott). I too should like provision to be made for the establishment at the university of a school of agriculture. 2303 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - To train cadets for the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research ? 2303 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - That was not exactly my idea. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research operates on the experimental side of agriculture) but what I have in mind is a school of agriculture at which young men and women would learn the scientific side of agriculture, as they do at the agricultural colleges in the various States, in order to engage in primary production. I do not claim to know a great deal about farming, but any one who has visited country schools must be aware that the lessons the children learn encourage them to migrate to the cities, ra ther than to stay on the farms. We must stop the drift of people to the cities if we are to preserve the rural industries on which our future is dependent. It may still be possible to include a provision in the bill for the establishment of a chair of agriculture at the university. I ask the Government to give that matter deep consideration. I am sure that not only the honorable member for New England, but also many other honorable gentlemen are in accord with the need for courses in agricultural science. It is indeed a matter of regret that the Australian Capital Territory, the centre of a vast primary producing district, has not such a college already. I disagree with the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) that the university should be conducted in conjunction with the Royal Military College at Duntroon. The two must be kept separate. We may again, unhappily, have the need for great numbers of soldiers, sailors and airmen; but I should be dismayed if youths leaving high school to proceed to higher education were encouraged to receive it in an atmosphere of military jingoism. The Commonwealth Government in recent years has done much to promote higher education. It is contributing money through the universities to assist boysand girls of the right type to take university courses that they otherwise would be unable to take because of the poor circumstances of their families. Many of what might have been the best brains in the country have not been developed because the parents could not afford to keep their children at school beyond compulsory attendance age, let alone send them to universities. But, henceforth, boys and girls of ability, but without means, will be able, because of this Government's policy, to go ahead with their studies. The money expended will be more than repaid because of the beneficial results that will accrue to the national economy from the development of minds that might otherwise have remained undeveloped. The honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Blain) made an amazing speech. I was at a loss to know what most of it meant. I think he was clowning for most of the time. In one particularly irresponsible outburst, he castigated the Government for not having expended money in certain parts of the Northern Territory, such as Tennant Creek, Adelaide River and Katherine River. I reminded the honorable gentleman, by way of interjection, of the money that was wasted in the Northern Territory by another government, just before the war. 2304 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - I hope that the honorable gentleman will not be here to see the waste that will result from this bill. 2304 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - The honorable gentleman can takeit from me that I shall behere longer than he will be. I can understand the annoyance of the honorable member, because he was a member of the government that wasted money in Darwin. The honorable member for the Northern Territory, who attacks this Government for not having expended sufficient money in parts of the Northern Territory, supported the government that expended £2,500,000 on the Laraki'a barracks, which were evacuated after the first Japanese bomb fell on Darwin. It ill becomes an honorable member to criticize us when he supported a government which, instead of wisely spending money on the development of the Northern Territory, wasted £2,500,000 on barracks that were abandoned as soon as the enemy dropped a bomb. 2304 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - Barracks where soldiers live in peace-time, not where they fight. 2304 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Live in peacetime! The Larakia barracks were built for any period. The money wasted there could have been productive of development in other areas, the lack of which is lamented by the honorable member for the Northern Territory. 2304 10000 0 0 RIORDAN, William Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Riordan - Order! I ask the honorable member for Adelaide to return to the bill. 2304 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - I would not have mentioned that but for the attack on this Government by the honorable member for the Northern Territory. This bill is the first step on the road to a national education plan. 2304 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - The honorable member should join the " Glenelg Optimists' Society ". 2304 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - It would do the honorable member good to join an optimists' society. He is the most pessimistic man in Australia. This bill is the first step towards a national education system, and I am confident that the university will be a success. 2304 JTY Barker ALP 1 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON . - I am absolutely opposed to this bill. Unlike the honorable member for Adelaide (Mr. Chambers), I do not believe that the bill will lead to any national education service and, in addition, I hope and pray to the Lord that it will not. Education is the responsibility of the State parliaments, which can look after their own education services. Furthermore, I do not believe that the Federal Capital warrants a university of any kind. It is high time that this Parliament began to show some consideration for the downtrodden taxpayer, and realized that the expenditure of millions of pounds on all kinds of projects that the Government is undertaking must cease. The honorable member for Adelaide referred to the waste of money in the Northern Territory. If he desires an example of waste in that part of Australia, he shouldbegin from the date when the Curtin Government appointed the Allied Works Council. 2304 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - A more expensive and profligate institution never existed in the history of the Commonwealth. and I trust that at least during ray lifetime, we shall never again see an organization which can waste money at the rate that the Allied Works Council wasted it in the Northern Territory and eis where. Let me examine briefly the proposal for the establishment of a university at Canberra. After having listened to some honorable members, I could be excused for thinking that universities were produced like rabbits, out of hats, or by legislation, or by rule of thumb. When we examine the history of the famous universities of the world, we find that they grew up over a long period of time, and upstarts among the universities do not reCeIve much of a hearing. The London University does not compare with Oxford and Cambridge. What value is placed upon a degree of the average university in the United States of America - I exclude Harvard, Yale, and one or two others - compared with a. degree of Oxford or Cambridge? There must be something on which to base a university. Canberra has not a. large enough population to warrant the establishment of a university here, and if honorable members believe that, because this city happens to be the Federal Capital, and the Government establishes something of a university here, people all over Australia will be induced to send their children here, they are labouring under a misapprehension. 2305 KEU 0 0 FALSTEIN, Sydney Mr Falstein - What is the population of the town of Oxford? 2305 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - The population of Oxford is not an important point in this debate. Oxford never was the capital of the United Kingdom, and the reputation of Oxford University dates back centuries. So also does the reputation of Cambridge University. Attempts to establish universities at big industrial centres like Manchester and London have not succeeded in ousting Oxford and Cambridge from the pre-eminent places that they have occupied in the world of education for centuries. 2305 KEU 0 0 FALSTEIN, Sydney Mr Falstein - The honorable member has just disproved his own contention. 2305 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - The honorable member . for Watson (Mr. Falstein) does not understand. I hope that he will learn more about watches than he has learned about the law. 2305 KEU 0 0 FALSTEIN, Sydney Mr Falstein - I should never be so ignorant as the honorable member is. 2305 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - That may.be, but unlike the honorable member for Watson, I did not attend a university. I left school at the age of twelve years. The Government is not likely to estab'lish successfully a school of medical research unless the research is to be conducted in conjunction with a large hospital. If I am any judge, that adjunct will not be available in the Australian Capital Territory. Clause 7 provides also for the establishment of a school of physical science. Heaven knows what that means ! . It may refer to the atomic bomb, which, after all, is a physical matter. In addition, there is to be a school of social sciences. My experience of the products of schools of social sciences is that generally th'ey are fairly " red ". Finally, provision is made for the delectable school of Pacific affairs and diplomatic studies. Those are four wonderful corner-stones on which to found what is supposed to be the superuniversity of the Commonwealth. Some honorable members appear to believe that, because Canberra happens to be the Federal Capital, everything should be concentrated here. In my opinion, one of the outstanding tragedies of Canberra is that it is insulated and isolated from the life of the people of Australia. People who are raised here and who see nothing more of Australia than the environs of Canberra, do not know how the country functions: They may know something of how the administration is carried on - and a most expensive administration it is. The one- educational establishment in the Australian Capital Territory which should receive some consideration from the Commonwealth Government, has apparently been overlooked. I refer to the Royal Military College at Duntroon. As that institution is outside the scope of the bill, I shall not debate it now. I merely call attention to that fact, and I shall be interested to know whether the Government is prepared to do as much for the only military educational establishment in Australia, which only the Commonwealth Government is responsible for maintaining, as it is prepared to do for an unwanted university which ia not likely to make a great figure in the education life of the Commonwealth during the next 50 years. The outlook of this Government towards finance is so wide and extravagant that it is time that some members of the Opposition asked it to come back to earth. If the Government has large suras of money to expend, the shortage of houses and hospital accommodation calls urgently for attention. Until those two problems have been solved, the Commonwealth Government is not justified in spending one penny on an institution which is not wanted, which will be a purely artificial growth, and which will not cut any figure in the educational life of Australia. For those reasons, I oppose the bill. 2306 KGX Parkes 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN .- When listening to the speeches on this bill, I- could not help arriving at certain conclusions. One conclusion which has been forced upon me during the last few minutes was that when this university, with its capacity for providing extra study, is established, there should be a chair for discovering some more facts about the queer phenomenon of Staterighters infesting the seats of the Opposition in the Parliament of the Commonwealth. I was impressed also to find that, with the exception of the speech of the honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Beazley), the discussions went round and about the subject rather than to the core, which is the establishment of a university in Canberra. I heard disputation regarding the architecture of the university, and always is drawn into the debate a hatred of Canberra. Surely we have a mandate- -a spiritual mandate, at any rate - to accept the decision of the Australian community relating to the Federal Capital, and having quieted our own Australian doubts about it, we accept it as evidence of the growth of this great Commonwealth, and, in addition, accept our destiny within it. If we are to progress, I fail to see that such matters as high taxation, financial provision for hospitals, and State responsibility for education have anything to do with the establishment of a national university, except as side issues. The subject before the House is that we should have in this Federal Capital and at the core of our Australian nationality some indication of our progress - some institution which .will enable us to proceed upon the lines of civilization and civilization proceeds hand in hand with learning, and the edifications which may be drawn from a national life allied with civilized processes. In the circumstances, there can be no argument that a. university is necessary wherever man can build one. The histories of universities have not all been of venerable piles associated with slowthinking dons, quietly flowing rivers, and philosophies. A university was originally just an aggregation of men who taught themselves to think, and having done so, taught other persons to think. That is the basis of all education from elementary education to the higher education.' But because it has been suggested that the proposed university of Canberra should be the national university with postgraduate courses, the project is assailed for having forward, thrusting ideas, and for disdaining the inferiority complex that it cannot survive, is unwanted, and will be expensive.. It would be much better if we, as members of the Commonwealth Parliament, addressed ourselves to- the future of the country, instead of always getting into the narrow-minded philosophy that no good can come out of Canberra, and that everything we do with the Federal Capital must be wrong. Parliament House has been criticized as being a temporary structure, but behind it is the ideal, permanent and indestructible, and although this building may not please all aesthetic minds, that fact has nothing to do with the philosophy and national feeling behind the establishment of a great federal city. So it is with the -national university, at Canberra. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) objected to , the proposed name of "Australian National University". I do not think that the right honorable gentleman was thinking in a- political sense. The party, which he leads, once was called the "National" party, hut it- is. now known as the Liberal party. I believe that the Leader of the Opposition is politically very sincere in his outlook on education. When 'the subject was discussed a few months ago, he delivered one of the finest speeches that I have ever heard on that subject. I have since read it on two occasions. The right honorable gentleman approached the matter from a purely national standpoint. In the circumstances, the question of whether the university shall be called the -National University is immaterial. If we are seeking to create an atmosphere around our future university, we can do no better than call it the " John Curtin Memorial University ". John Curtin taught us the meaning of true federation arid true Australianism, and he highlighted the sacrifices that a great Australian should be called upon to make in time of war, even unto death. So if it were necessary, and the occasion does not arise at the moment, to give the university a name, I hope that my suggestion will receive careful consideration. Other honorable members raised various issues, including researches in relation to peoples, and particularly in relation to medicine. I remind. them that although the Paris Sorbonne was filled to overflowing with students who were treating, as so many students treat, the university as a plush-lined carriage where they get half a dozen letters after their names before going out into the world to practice their professions, there were two people in a little stone hut alongside the university who were isolated from the others. Their researches gave us the miracle of radium. Isolation is sometimes necessary to a man or woman who is engaged in research work, but I agree entirely with the Leader of the Opposition that the research worker must have his contacts, experiments and facilities to study what has been done in a practical way elsewhere. But the locale of a university has nothing to do with its performance, particularly if it is devoted to research, as the bill proposes that the Canberra university shall be. There is a fascination in this debate. It brings to my mind many other desirable developments, such, for example, as a national theatre. I should not quibble about a decision to establish such a theatre in Canberra, for thereby we should be accumulating traditions which at present we lack. We frequently refer to the ancient homes of learning, but we should remember that those places are not famous merely because they are ancient. As a matter of fact in their outlook they are as fresh as the morning. If we are to progress as we desire to do, Ave need to be reaching out to the future. We need long-range planning in relation to our universities. To adapt the words of a popular song, " Yon cannot stop us from dreaming". We cannot afford to think of the nation in. terms of breadandbutter and cash-register politics. It would be a bad thing for the nation if we had no- dreamers. We must maintain our place in the community of nations, and to do so we must demonstrate our capacity to contribute something worth while. We have gathered a good deal from the seats of ancient learning in Europe. I do not know that we have drawn much from Asia, except the story of its ancient culture. But we must make our own contributions to learning and culture. If we had a National University established in Canberra we should be able, I believe, to do great work in the interests, not only of our own people, but also of those of the Northern Territory, Papua, and the- Mandated Territory of New Guinea. I should be disappointed in this measure if it. did not envisage in some way the establishment of a course of colonial administration. Although we are a young nation we have already had thrust upon us great responsibilities in regard to colonization. Native peoples, who are in the dawn age of civilization, look to us in regard to their future, and if we had a National University in which consideration could -be given to these matters it would be a great advantage. I am reminded by interjections from the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Blain) that it may also be necessary to do something for some of our own white people! But attention certainly needs to be given to the tinderprivileged people of black skins under our control. Something has been said about the amount of money and the area of land that should be provided for the purpose of this university. We should do our best to give the national university proper status, and to make it symbolic of all thai is best in the architectural beauty and culture of our community. The area of land surrounding it should be sufficient to provide a campus and a proper atmosphere. But after all the principal consideration is the nature of the work that will be done within the university itself. I hope that at the appropriate time we shall establish a chair of rhetoric, for the cultural development of our people has to be adequately described, and for this purpose we shall .need proper cultural and technical service. The soul of this country will be found in the writings. and arts of its people, as well as in the films produced here, though film production has been commercialized. A chair of rhetoric would do a great deal to create a true Australian conscience. We need to develop a courageous and characteristic Australian outlook. I am happy to know that the Common- wealth Government is taking this step to establish the university and I hope that the measure will have the unanimous support of the members of this Parliament. Some honorable gentlemen opposite develop an anxiety complex about what our neighbours, by whom they mean the people in other parts of the world, will think of us if we do certain things. It is not our business to ape the doings or to fear the judgment of the people of other nations. We have been settled in this country for more than 150 years and every opportunity should be provided for thoroughly, equipped and trained Australians to 'tell the story of our' achievements and to develop the cultural qualities of our race. A National University will undoubtedly serve a good purpose in this regard, for it will tend to develop our national characteristics to the highest possible degree. I hope therefore, that the new university will be supported by every section of the community. Its only possible opponents will be those little Australians who fear that something may be clone that is beyond their comprehension. When this terrifying thought takes hold of them, they begin to speak derogatorily about long-haired professors, planners, and the strange people who infest universities, as though the only knowledgeable folk are those who go to the races and patronize the tin hares. The Australian people prefer to pursue higher purposes than that. Many of them wish to study the best elements of citizenry because they believe that Australia has a purpose to fulfil in that regard. We can afford therefore, to throw to one side the criticism of such individuals as the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Blain), though perhaps something might be said for providing some means, in the new university, to cater for " lame brains ". 2308 KCF Corio ALP Minister for Post-war' Reconstruction and Minister in -charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN . - in reply - I am gratified at the manner in' which this bill has been received throughout Australia and, in particular, by members of the House, with the exception of the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) and the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. . Blain). I -sard most of what I wished to say when I made my second-reading speech, and I do not propose to prolong the debate at this stage; but I wish to reply briefly to a few observations made, by honorable members. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies), while giving generous support to the measure, voiced misgivings about the possible effect of establishing research schools, as proposed in the bill. He questioned the effect that the establishment of these schools might have on the research, work at present being undertaken in the existing Australian universities. Those universities received "grants totalling £52,000 last year from the Commonwealth Government for the work that they are doing." Of that amount £40,000 was made available from the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research endowment funds, and the other £12,000 was provided for research work in the social sciences. The total amount was larger than any previous Australian government had provided iri one financial year. In fact, the Australian universities have never been better off than they are to-day, insofar as Commonwealth Government grants are concerned. I do not say that enough money is being provided, for the field of research is extremely broad. It will be necessary for large sums to be made available from time to time for research work in universities. The proposed Australian National University at Canberra will he able to take some part in these activities to the advantage of the country. The Leader of the Opposition conceded that some research schools could appropriately be associated with the new university, and be referred in this regard to the school of Pacific affairs and the school' of diplomatic studies. I believe that he would be willing to' include in the category a research school in social sciences. The right honorable gentleman voiced some misgivings as to whether the Australian National University could do effective work in medical research. That point was dealt with by the honorable member for Fremantle (Mr. Beazley), who showed clearly that the value of research of that description did not depend upon whether the university which engaged in it was situated in a thickly populated area. As a. matter of fact, that circumstance has very little to do with the value of research. By interjection the honorable member for Watson (Mr. Falstein) suggested that the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, the most famous seats of learning in the British Isles, do not owe their renown to the localities in which they are situated. In my view a 'medical research -school could do work in Canberra which would be as- effective as the work' being done in. the research schools of existing universities in the State capitals. The Leader of 'the Opposition said that presumably the Government had given careful consideration to this proposal. That is true. It was aided in this regard by a number of committees, on which the universities' of Sydney and Melbourne, and also most of the other Australian universities were represented. The members of the committee which reported upon medical- research were : Dr. F. M. Burnett, Director of the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute; Dr. S. McCallum, Commonwealth Director7General of Health ; Sir Alan Newton, member of the Central Medical Coordination Committee and chairman of the Medical Equipment Control Committee; Professor H. K. Ward, of Sydney University; and Professor R. D. Wright, of Melbourne' University. The subject was dealt with carefully by these experts. 2309 N76 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr Menzies - I agree that that is an expert committee. Would it be possible for the Minister to make its report available to us? 2309 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - I shall endeavour to do so. When the Director-General of Post-war Reconstruction was in London recently he also had the opportunity of consulting Sir Howard Florey on this subject.' As honorable members know, Sir Howard Florey was the discoverer of penicillin. It transspired during the discussions that Sir Howard Florey would be much more emphatic in support of a medical research school at Canberra if, . simultaneously, there was set up in this city a research, school of physical sciences, with which. Professor' Oliphant, of Birmingham University, who has been concerned 'in the discussions on atomic energy generally, could be associated, because medical research consists not merely of medical experts attending hospitals at which they can see patients, but also of work' undertaken in laboratories into problems where contact with patients suffering from certain diseases, or with other experts in the medical field, is not absolutely necessary. I understand that Madame Curie, the discoverer of radium, for example, conducted most of her research activities in an isolated locality. It is not necessary for research workers in the medical or any other field to be in constant close contact with other research workers in that field, although that has ad vantages on some occasions. I believe that the medical research school in Canberra will not suffer in any way by reason of the fact that it is situated in this city, instead of in either Melbourne or Sydney. Another point raised by the Leader of the Opposition was in relation to the name of this university. I have received considerable correspondence on that' subject. Some persons believe that it should be called the University of Canberra, whereas others consider that the correct name has been selected. Included among those who support the name selected is one to whose opinion I pay a very great deal of attention - the honorable member, for Fremantle (Mr. Beazley). Three Australian universities have the names of the capital cities in which they are located, namely, the Melbourne, Sydney and Adelaide Universities; but in the three remaining States we have the University of Tasmania, the University of Western Australia and the University of Queensland. This shows that there is some division of opinion as to what name should be given to a university. Some persons consider that the name should be closely related to the city or town in which it is situated, whereas others hold the view that it would be better described by being related to the name of a wider geographical area. I consider that we have chosen correctly in having identified this university with the whole of Australia. Another name that might have been selected, the University of the Commonwealth of Australia, would perhaps have been too long. The name selected is the best that could have been chosen in all the circumstances, and I do not propose to accept any amendment that might be submitted to effect an alteration of it. The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) debated the subject of research being undertaken in agricultural colleges. There is nothing in the bill to prevent the setting up of a college devoted to agricultural research in Canberra, underthis university. I hope that, in the years to come, when the council of the university sees fit to do so, such an institution will be established. The founding of a . university in Canberra has been a subject of discussion ever since the inauguration of federation. Its establishment will be another milestone on the road of cultural progress in Australia, and one more monument to the enduring work of an Australian Labour Government. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read the second time, and committed pro forma; progress reported. Message reported recommending appropriation for the purposes of an amendment to be moved by the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction in this bill. In committee (Consideration of Governor-General's message) : Motion (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to - That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of an amendment to be moved by the Minister for Post-War Reconstruction in a bill for an act to establish and incorporate a university in the Australian Capital Territory. Resolution reported and -by leave - adopted. 2310 Miscellaneous Broadcasting of Proceedings: Appointment of Committee; Report of Committee Message received from the Senate intimating that the following senators had been appointed members of the Parliamentary Proceedings Broadcasting Committee: The President of the Senate (Senator Brown), Senator Arnold and Senator Gibson. 2310 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER (Hon J S Rosevear - I present the first report of the Parliamentary Proceedings Broadcasting Committee. It reads - In accordance with section 12 (1.) of the Parliamentary Proceedings Broadcasting Act 1946, the Joint Committee on the Broadcasting of Parliamentary Proceedings has considered and has specified the general principles upon which there should bedetermined the days upon which, and the periods during which, the proceedings of the Senate and the House of Representatives shall be broadcast. The Joint Committee submits the following report for presentation to each House of the Parliament and recommends its adoption : - Days upon which proceedings shall be broadcast: The proceedings of Parliament shall be broadcast oneach day on which either House is sitting. Periods during which proceedings shall be broadcast: The broadcastshall commence on each sitting day at the time fixed for the meeting of the House whose opening proceedings are to be broadcast on that day as determined by the Joint Committee on the Broadcasting of Parliamentary Proceedings in accordance with section 12 (2.) of the Parliamentary Proceedings Broadcasting Act 1946, and shall cease when the adjournment is moved in the House which is being broadcast at that time. Allocation of broadcasting time between the Senate and the House of Representatives: The allocation of broadcasting time between the Senate and the House of Representativesshall be in accordance with the views of the Joint Committee on the Broadcasting of Parliamentary Proceedings, or its sub-committee, on the importance of the impending debate and the public interest attaching thereto. The committee recognizes that in practice more time will be allotted to the House of Representatives than to the Senate. (4)re-broadcast of questions without notice and answers: Within the limits of time available, questions without notice and answers in each House shall be re-broadcast between 7.20 p.m. and 7.55 p.m. on each sitting day. Broadcast and re-broadcast through national stations: No broadcast or re-broadcast of the proceedings of either House shall be made except through national broadcasting stations unless the joint committee otherwise determines. (Sgd.) J. S. Rosevear, Chairman. 5th July, 1946. Motion (by Mr. Chifley) -by leave - proposed - That the report be adopted. 2311 N76 Kooyong Leader of the Opposition 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr MENZIES . -There is one feature of the report which perhaps could be elucidated; it arises under the section headed " Periods during which proceedings shall he broadcast". I notice that the broadcast is to commence at the time fixed for the meeting of the House, and that it " shall cease when the adjournment is moved in the House which is being broadcast at that time ". No doubt the committee has given careful consideration to this matter. But I draw the attention of the House to this consideration: There may be occasions when a very important discussion will take place on the motion for the adjournment of the House. Surely the report of the committee should read " shall cease when the motion for the adjournment of the House has been carried " ; in other words, when the House actually adjourns ! Otherwise this position may arise - it frequently has arisen : Some member or members may desire to debate an important matter of general interest on the motion for the adjournment of the House, and the Prime Minister or the Minister in charge of the House may say, as . he has said many times in my experience, " I shall move the adjournment earlier, so that membersmay have an opportunity to debate the matter on that motion ". Under the terms of this report as I understand them - I have just glanced at the document - if the motion for the adjournment of the House were submitted at, say, 10 p.m., however important might be the ensuing debate the broadcast would terminate as soon as the Minister in charge of the House had moved, " That the House do now adjourn ". That means that there would be an automatic exclusion from the broadcast of all debates on the motion for the adjournment of the House - I do not refer to special adjournment motions that are submitted at the beginning of the sittings - even though very many important subjects may be raised which ought to be brought to the notice of the public. 2311 J7U 0 0 LYONS, Enid Dame Enid Lyons - All the subjects are important to the members who raise them. 2311 N76 0 0 MENZIES, Robert Mr MENZIES - As the honorable member for Darwin very rightly points out, the subjects are important to the members who raise them. It may be very important that the electors should know that their representative has raised a certain matter, and what answer has been made to it by the appropriate Minister. However, all that I say is that this proposal of the joint committee, if adopted, will automatically exclude one debate which is a well-established characteristic of this Parliament, and may occasionally be extremely important and useful. 2311 F4T Darling Downs 0 0 FADDEN, Arthur William Mr FADDEN . - I desire some clarification or amplification of the proposal in paragraph 4 of the report of the joint committee - "Re-broadcast of questions without notice and answers ". It is proposed that, within the limits of time available, questions without notice and answers in each House shall be re-broadcast between 7.20 p.m. and 7.55 p.m. on each sitting day. Questions without notice always occupy at least an hour. Who is to decide what questions shall be re-broadcast during the 35 minutes allotted for the purpose? If a record is to be made of the questions as they are asked, and the answers thereto, how can they be compressed in the re-broadcast into a period of 35 minutes? 2311 KZR Balaclava 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE .- The re-broadcasting of questions without notice is to occupy only 35 minutes each evening. We know that it has been the practice for Ministers to interrupt the asking of questions in order to make statements by leave. Sometimes, the statements are important, but at other times they are very long and unimportant. Has the committee considered that a statement by a Minister on leave might occupy the whole of question time? The committee might recommend that Ministers should be asked to make such statements at the end of question time. That would be only fair. It was obvious that the committee would be troubled with matters of this kind which could be avoided if the whole of the proceedings of Parliament were broadcast. Let us ' now turn to questions upon notice. It was once the practice in this House to read such questions, and the answers to them, and this is still the practice in the Senate and the House of Commons. Usually, more thought and care is given to drafting questions upon notice and the answers to them than to questions without notice. Are questions upon notice to be completely ignored in the broadcasting? I suggest that the committee arrange to allot a portion . of the broadcasting to such questions. 2312 009MC Fawkner 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT .- As a member of the committee which prepared this report, I ask the House to accept it as a working basis upon which to begin. All the points raised by honorable memberg have been considered by the committee, some of them at'length. In reaching this decision, the committee was guided by what it believed to be in the best interests of Parliament, which is the overriding consideration, and also in the interests of the listening public. We had also to take into consideration the technical limitations of the broadcasting system. I agree with the Leader, of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) that the exclusion of debates on the motion for the adjournment of the House is undesirable, but as many of the speeches made on that motion relate to one electorate only, and as the debates come on at a very late hour, it was thought that, at the beginning, at any rate; they should be excluded. It was also thought desirable that the listening public and the broadcasting authorities should know approximately when the broadcasting for the day would finish. However, the matter will receive further consideration, because the motion for the adjournment of the House provides private members with one of their most precious opportunities to air grievances. The matter raised by the Leader of theAustralian Country party (Mr. Fadden) is one of some complexity. It is desir-- able that we should enable the public to listen to what is undoubtedly the most entertaining part of the proceedings of the House, namely, question time. However, the news broadcast from the Australian Broadcasting Commission stations is at 7 o'clock, followed by a brief commentary which it is thought should not be excluded. Then, it is believed that, before the House meets, an Australian Broadcasting Commission official will explain procedure, and tell the public what business will be discussed by Parliament in the evening. All thisallows only a limited time for the rebroadcasting of questions. Also, it must be remembered that there are two Houses of Parliament to consider* Obviously,, one House will not be able to get on the air at all, and precedence should be given to the questions asked in that House during the day. Our idea was that there should be no selection of questions for re-broadcasting, but that the record of questions and answers should be rebroadcast from the beginning until the time is exhausted. The point raised by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) has also been considered. We have not been able to discuss the matter with representatives of the Government, but. we hope - and I ask the Prime Minister to bear this iri mind - that .the practice will be -adopted by Ministers of making statements by leave at the end of question time. We have also discussed with Mr. Speaker whether it would be practicable for him to call honorable members at question time in such a way . that those .on the back benches would have an equal opportunity to ask- questions with those on the front benches, and thus have their questions and the answers to. them heard by a larger audience. We suggested that he should keep a list of those who got the call each day, so that those who failed on one day might be given priority at the next sitting. Normally, the leaders and deputy leaders on each side of the House are called early by Mr. Speaker. We suggest that they might consider other members by spacing their questions more widely, or by deferring some of them until the latter part of question time. This is an all-party committee. In the very brief time at our disposal we considered the various points as fully as was possible. We ask the House to accept the' recommendations as a working basis. In the light of experience we shall, I have no doubt, be able to give a more satisfactory service to Parliament and to the public. We are making a beginning, and we all hope that that innovation will prove a success. 2313 KRE Cook 0 0 SHEEHAN, Thomas Mr SHEEHAN . - I support the motion for the adoption of this report . I do not disregard the point made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) about speeches on the motion for the adjournment of the House. As a member of the committee, I assure him that the matter will be looked into by the committee at its next meeting. As for the interruption of questions by ministerial statement, those in charge of the broadcast could disregard such interruptions when preparing the records, so that only the questions themselves and the answers would be re-broadcast in the evening. Questions are the most interesting part of the proceedings of Parliament, but unfortunately, they are asked at a time when a great many people are unable to listen.For that reason the committee has recommended that this part of the proceedings between 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening be re-broadcast. 2313 JWU Eden-Monaro ALP Monaro 1 0 FRASER, Allan Mr FRASER . - Owing to the demands on broadcasting time, it is not possible to ensure that all questions asked shall be re-broadcast in the evening, but it is not intended that any selection of questions and answers shall be made by broadcasting officials. A question and its answer can be shut out only because the question is asked after the first 35 minutes of question time. If the suggestions put forward are adopted, every member will have a fair opportunity from day to day to be heard over the air during question time, or of having his question and the answer to it re-broadcast later. This will particularly be the case if Ministers will postpone until after the first 35 minutes the making of statements by leave. The committee is treading new ground, and attempting to solve vast problems. Some of them can be solved only in the light of experience. I hope that the report will be adopted to-day, so that the broadcasting of proceedings may begin next week. 2313 K6Q Wide Bay 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr BERNARD CORSER . - As a member of the committee, I hope that the House will adopt the report. Possibly a better report might have been prepared if the committee had had more time. What it has achieved has been possible only by meeting for practically all the time that the House itself has been sitting to-day. An effort has been made to ensure that every member shall be given a fair opportunity to be heard over the' air, whether during question time or at other times. Questions occur in the mid-afternoon or, when the House meets in the morning, between 10.30 and 11.30, when a great many people are not able to listen. As the questions are so interesting and valuable, it was thought desirable that this part of the proceedings should be broadcast, as far as possible, after dinner. I am not happy about the proposal that the time allotted for the re-broadcasts should be limited. I would rather that a full hour were allotted to the rebroadcasts so that all the questions asked in both Houses might be heard by the public. However, the committee will have further opportunities to consider the matter and to report to Parliament, and it is hoped that many of the suggestions advanced by honorable members can be adopted later. Question resolved in the affirmative . 2313 Bill In committee: Consideration resumed (vide page 2310). Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to. Clause 6 (Functions of the University). 2313 KZR Balaclava 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE .- Has the Minister considered prescribing functions for the university additional to those mentioned in the clause? Is it possible, for example, that the university may decide to grant travelling scholarships? The honorable gentleman, who has taken a prominent part in the post-war education of ex-servicemen, will, I am sure, agree that many more overseas scholarships are needed, not only for men but also for women. The Rhodes Scholarships are an excellent institution, but they are available only to males. Consideration might be given to the desirability of extending a somewhat similar concession to Australian girls who attend the Australian National University. If the Minister has not already considered this matter, he might ascertain the views of the vice-chancellors of the other Australian universities. I understand that such a system has already been recommended for application in some State universities. 2314 KCF Corio ALP Minister for Post-war Reconstruction and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN . - The point mentioned by the honorable member is at present under consideration by the Office of Education, which is a more appropriate body to deal with it than the university will be. Clause agreed to. Clause. 7 - The University may establish such Research Schools as arc deemed desirable, including - A School of Medical Research; A School of Pacific Affairs and Diplomatic Studies. Amendments (by Mr. Dedman) agreed That, at the end of paragraph (a), the following words be added: - ", to be known as The John Curtin School of Medical Research ' ". That paragraph (d) be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following paragraph : - "a Research School of Pacific Studies ". Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 8 (Training for Public Service). 2314 KZR Balaclava 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE .- In my second-reading speech I referred to the desirability of utilizing, in associa-" tion with the university, the professional staff of the Royal Military College at Duntroon, an excellent institution, which has been in existence since 1911. I pointed out that graduates of the West Point Military Academy in the United States of America aregiven a training which fits them to enter the public service or go into civil avocations if they decide not to follow a military career. If the Government is not in favour of the introduction of such a system in Australia consideration might at least be given to the desirability of interchanging the teaching staffs between the college and the university. If that were done, men of high qualifications would be more easily attracted to join the professional staffs of both institutions. 2314 KCF Corio ALP Minister for Post-War Reconstruction and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN . - I shall consider the suggestion. I believe, however, that it would be advisable to leave decisions on matters of that kind to the council of the university. Clause agreed to. Clauses 9 to 25 agreed to. Clause 26 (Statutes). Amendment (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to- That, at the end of the clause, the following sub-clause be added : - " (2.) The Statutes may provide for em- " powering any authority (including the Council) or officer of the University to make bylaws, rules or orders (not inconsistent with this Act or with any Statute) for regulating, or providing for the regulation of, any specified matter (being a matter with respect to which Statutes may be made) or for carrying out or giving effect to the Statutes, and any such by-law, rule or order shall have the same force and effect as a Statute.". Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 27- (1.) Every statute when approved by the Council shall be sealed with the common seal . . . (3.) A copy of every such statute shall be laid before each House of the Parliament within fifteen sitting days of that House after publication of thestatute in the Gazette. Amendments (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to - That, in sub-clause (3.), the word "publication " be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word" notification ". That, at the end of the clause, the following sub-clause be added: - " (5.) The Statutes shall be numbered consecutively in the order in which they are notified in the Gazette, and a notice in the Gazette of the fact that a Statute has been made and specifying the number of the Statute shall be sufficient compliance with the requirement of sub-section (1.) of this section that the Statute shall be notified in the Gazette.". Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 28 (Finance). Am end ment (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to - That the clause be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following, clause: - "28. - (1.) There shall be payable to the University - in each financial year during the period of five years commencing on the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and forty-six - such sum not exceeding Three hundred and twenty-five thousand pounds, as the Treasurer is satisfied is necessary to meet the expenses of the University in that financial year; and . in each financial year thereafter - the sum of Three hundred and twenty-five thousand pounds. " (2.) The amounts payable to the University under this section shall be paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund which, to the necessary extent, is hereby appropriated accordingly.". Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 29 to 31 agreed to. Clause 32- (1.) Every person who, at the date on which this Act comes into operation, holds any salaried office or employment in the Canberra University College . . Amendment (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to - That, in sub-clause (1.), the words, "on which this Act comes into operation " be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - "on which the Canberra University College is incorporated in the University in pursuance of section nine of this Act ". Clause, as amended, agreed to. New clauses 11a and 27a. Motions (by Mr. Dedman) agreed to - That, after clause 11, the following new clause be inserted: - " 11 a. - (1.) At any time before the Council has been duly constituted and appointed, the Governor-General may establish an Interim Council, consisting of such persons as he thinks fit. " (2.) Unless sooner dissolved by the Governor-General, the Interim Council shall remain in existence until the date on which the Council is duly constituted and appointed, or until the thirty-first day of December, One thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, whichever is the earlier. " (3.) The Interim Council shall do such things as it considers necessary in connexion with the establishment of the University and the commencement of the functions of the University, and for that purpose shall have all the powers and functions of the Council (except the powers and functions of the Council under section sixteen of this Act). " (4.) While the Interim Council is in existence, any reference in any provision of this Act, other than sections eleven, thirteen, fourteen, sixteen and twenty-three, to the Council shall be read as a reference to the Interim Council.". That, after clause 27, the following new clause be inserted: - "27a. -(1.) Fees shall be payable by students of the University except, in the ease of any student who is granted any fellowship, scholarship, exhibition, bursary or similar benefit, to the extent to which he is thereby exempted from payment of fees. " (2.) The Governor-General may, by Proclamation, determine that foes shall not be payable by students of the University and, while the Proclamation is in force, fees shall not be so payable.". Title agreed to. Bill reported with amendments; report - by leave - adopted. Bill -by leave - read a third time. 2316 Adjournment Pillaging of Cargoes - Tasmanian Shipping Services - Italian Prisoners of War. - Migration Priorities - Sporting Ammunition - Dairying Industry : Milk Subsidy in Queensland - Postmaster-General's Department : Revenue and Profits : Postal and Telephonic Services - Canberra : Removal of Trees and Shrubs. Motion (by Mr. Chifley) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 2316 J7U Darwin 0 0 LYONS, Enid Dame ENID LYONS .. - Recently, the Chief Justice of Victoria said that the community was losing its sense of moral indignation towards wrong-doing. I desire to express some moral indignation about the widespread wrong-doing which has not been sufficiently discussed in this House, namely, the pillaging of cargoes and the like while in transport. The main reason why I have risen this afternoon is that certain specific instances have come to my notice of pillaging at some time between the loading of the cargo at Victorian ports, and its arrival at the ports of destination in Tasmania. . According to my information - and I believe the figures I am about to cite to be very close to correct - one ship alone had paid £219 compensation for pillage which took place between Melbourne and Burnie, Geelong being an intermediate port of call. At the present time ali claims for pillage are settled by the transport authority on behalf of the Commonwealth Government. When such a large amount is paid in respect of one ship, it indicates that there must be a tremendous leakage on all the ships trading in Australian waters. It has been suggested to me that, apart from the general decline of moral principle which seems to have overtaken the world, there is an. insufficient supervision of cargo. In earlier years, .shipping companies themselves provided that supervision, but when i they are not responsible for the settlement of claims for losses arising from pillage, the same immediate" interest is not taken by them. If. possible a system akin to the house detective, should be instituted, and the wharfs" and ships should be patrolled, because the leakage is too great to be overlooked, not only from the financial viewpoint, but also from the viewpoint of the preservation of the moral standards of the community. I am informed that many similar cases have occurred. For example,- a large case of dinner-ware was despatched to a retailer in Tasmania, but when it reached its destination, it was found to contain only one piece of crockery. Pillaging is rife, and is being carried out on a well-organized basis, otherwise it would not be easy to abstract almost the whole of the contents of the case in such a way as not to make that fact obvious. Other material would have to be put into the case to make up for the lost weight. I propose now to say a few words relating to the Tasmanian shipping service. Although I have raised this matter in the House on many occasions, it is one of such great urgency that I cannot neglect the opportunity once more to emphasize the claims pf Tasmania for a better shipping service. The statement was recently made that one of the difficulties confronting Tasmania at the present time is that there is insufficient labour available to clear the ships at Burnie and Devonport. Large cargoes are awaiting shipment. Within a short distance of these ports, however, are the port of Ulverstone which could take ships of smaller draught than can" be taken "at the. principal ports, and also the port of Stanley, 50 miles farther along the coast, which serves a district from which large quantities of potatoes and other agricultural produce are exported every year. The shipping of produce from Stanley will also have the advantage of preventing a great deal of handling in getting the cargoes- to the ship's side. As the potato industry iri Tasmania is worth approximately £10,000,000 a year, it cannot be neglected. The consumption of potatoes in New South Wales alone dropped by 400,000 bags during this year, due to the shortage of shipping. It is an enormous amount, and of course it represents not only a loss to the consumer, but also to' the grower, and again I urge, the Government to devote particular attention to Tasmania's shipping requirements. I am quite aware that there is a general shortage of shipping, and I appreciate the claims of other parts of the Commonwealth; but I emphasize that Tasmania is the only State that is entirely dependent upon shipping for the transport of heavy commodities. Most of the produce of that State is perishable, and, unless shipping is made available" promptly, considerable loss is sustained. What I have said about the provision " of shipping for the carriage of produce from Tasmania applies also to the carriage of goods to the island. I am assured by the Government that the shipping committee has this matter under review constantly, but there is one point to which I have not previously made reference. The section of the Shipping Board dealing with Tasmania- the Tasmanian Shipping Committee - is composed entirely of ship-owners or managers of shipping companies. I impute nothing at all against the gentlemen concerned; but I believe that each of them is likely to look at the matter solely as a shipping proposition, and not as a human problem, and, therefore, is inclined to allow his mind to run along routine channels instead of dealing with the problem from the more general aspect, which I think is more important at present. I leave the matter with the urgent request that the Government shall give to it more than passing attention, and will endeavour to deal with the problem from the human point of view, instead of purely as a matter of business. 2317 JTY Barker ALP 1 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON . - There, are two matters to which I shall refer. One is a matter of policy which will require a certain amount of consideration by the Government, if it has not already been considered. It con.cerns the future- of Italian prisoners of war in Australia. For a long time, some of these men were employed on farms and at other places throughout the Commonwealth, but last March, they were put back into camps and apparently are still there. There is prevalent in the community to-day a belief that the Government is not getting these men out of the country as quickly as they should be sent, and also that certain people who employed them are endeavouring to have them retained in this country. There is necessarily a conflict of opinion on this subject. I have no doubt as to where I' stand on the matter, and I hope that the Government stands on the game ground. According to the Hague Convention dealing with prisoners of war, these men should be returned to their own country at the earliest opportunity. If the Government has any other view on the matter, I request it to make a declaration of policy soon, because the feeling in certain quarters is- inclined to become a little warm. I have no personal knowledge of the actual shipping position, and so far as I know, the Government may have a valid defence - lack of shipping - for its failure to repatriate the men. However, I hope that a clear-cut statement will be made that- it is the intention :of the Commonwealth to conform to the convention- and to return all prisoners of war to their country of origin as soon as possible. If that be done, the second issue with which I wish to deal arises, and_ - -once again it is -a matter of policy. I refer to .the future attitude of the Com- monwealth Government towards the migration to Australia of former prisoners of war and other persons from enemy countries. Much has been said about migration, and I think that if ex-servicemen are to be brought to this country, the claims of British ex-servicemen should have first consideration. According to some press statements I have seen, there are in the United Kingdom quite a number of men from Southern Ireland who served with the British forces, and who, because of the policy of the Government of Eire, are not permitted to return to that country. They should be included amongst British ex-servicemen who are to be given an opportunity to come to this country. Then, if foreigners are to be encouraged to enter Australia, I point out that there are large numbers of displaced people of Polish nationality who fought with the Allies, and who at' present have no desire to return to Poland as .it is governed to-day. These matters are all of first-class importance and call for the attention of the Government. Furthermore, in the interests of politics and administration generally, they call for some clearcut statement of policy. The other matter to which I shall refer is purely domestic, but it involves an important constitutional issue. From the Mount Gambier Gun Club, I have received a letter in which the secretary made this statement - Recently, we were most surprised to learn from press statements that the restrictions on the sale of sporting cartridges had been lifted in every State- except Victoria and South Australia. The reasons given for not lifting the restrictions in these two States was supposed to be because the State governments had made a request to the federal authorities to leave these in force until such time as they could introduce a State act to control the sale of firearms and ammunition. The Constitution lays down specifically that the Commonwealth, in its administration, .shall not differentiate between States or parts of States. If the contention contained in the letter be true, the Commonwealth's action is a distinct violation of its constitutional responsibility. Only by the passage by the States concerned of appropriate legislation can power be handed over to the Commonwealth to interfere in this way. 2317 KLL 0 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - Can it not be done with the consent of the States. 2317 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - No. It must be done by act of parliament, because the consent must be given, not by the government but by the parliament of a State. In this case, clearly that has not been done. Another point raised in the letter also relates to differentiation in administration. It appears that in Victoria any person who applies to the authorities may purchase sporting ammunition, whereas in South Australia the applicant must be a landholder. I understand that the shortage of this kind of ammunition is not now so great as it was some time ago, and I ask the Government to investigate the matter, and to furnish me with a statement as to what can be done. I should also like to learn from the Acting Attorney-General the reason why, under Commonwealth administration, two States have been placed in an entirely different position from that of the other States. 2318 JWT Moreton 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS .- I take this opportunity to bring to the notice of the Government some matters which I believe require urgent consideration. First I direct attention to the variation of the subsidy payable "upon milk sold for human consumption in certain parts of Queensland. In places such as the Ipswich district and Southport, the subsidy is limited to the period from May to September of this year, and Ls only 2d. a gallon, whereas milk sold for human consumption in the Brisbane area is subject to a varying payment over a period extending from March to December. The figures are as follows: - The point I wish to emphasize is that the subsidy payable on milk sold- for human consumption in the Brisbane- area increases, to as much as 4£d. a gallon, and the period of payment extends from March to December, whereas in country areas a flat rate of 2d. a gallon is payable for the shorter period of May to September. The costs of production are the same in each case. The producers are at a loss to understand the reason for the differentiation, and have asked me to seek clarification of the matter. The dairymen are thoroughly dissatisfied. There is no reason for the differentiation. In all the districts the dairymen are having trying times. . The drought has forced them to pay high prices for stock feed. I ask the Minister to have the matter investigated and adjusted before we meet on Wednesday. I ask, too, that the producers who have lost money because of the differential rates be recompensed! I also ask the Minister to conduct an immediate investigation of why for ;the- last four or five months dairy-farmers in the outlying parte of Brisbane have not been receiving their subsidies. They are having a bad enough time coping with the difficulties caused by the drought, and should not have their worries aggravated by being denied the payments due to them. It is bad enough that drought is causing a reduction of the output of the dairy products needed by Great Britain; but it is wicked that administrative shortcomings should be allowed to interfere with production. I " leave the matter there, confident that the Minister will treat it as urgent. Once, not so long ago, this country boasted penny postage. Now it costs 2|d. to send a letter. The result is that the revenues of the Postmaster-General's Department are swollen beyond all reason. As I shall show by the citation of the department's earnings, it ought to have sufficient money to provide the services, postal and telephonic, that country residents, particularly, need so badly, but are denied. In 1940-41, the department earned £19,496,213; in 1941-42, £22,462,684; in 1942-43, £25,579,340 ; and in 1943-44, the last year for which figures are available, £27,512,988. But, instead, of paring postal charges in proportion to those steadily increasing earnings, the department has been piling up consistently large surpluses. In 1941-42, the surplus was £5,518,793; in -1942-43, £6,142,645; and in 1943-44, £6,297,103. I should not be surprised if the surplus last financial year was £10,000,000. It is amazing, in view of those gigantic profits that the postage remains at 2-Jd. It is more astounding, in view of its huge, income, that the department is loath to provide postal and telephonic services to country residents, about the improvement of whose amenities the Government these days makes such a mouthful. In order to illustrate the miser-like attitude of the Postmaster-General's Department, I cite the fact that the experience of myself and other honorable gentlemen who have approached it on behalf of country residents urgently in need of telephones, both public and private, is that we meet with a refusal. When we press the matter, the reply is : " All right, if the applicant will pay £5, £10, £15 or £100 towards the cost- of installation and provide labour and materials, we will provide him with a telephone ". The day appears to be not far -distant when the department will be requiring farmers to mortgage their farms before telephones will be installed. I a6k the Minister representing the Postmaster-General to make representations to his colleague for a re-examination of the departmental, policy towards applicants in country districts for telephones. A further disbursement of the department's huge earnings should be on increasing mail deliveries in rural districts from the present weekly, bi-weekly and tri-weekly deliveries to deliveries six days a week. Country people are not the only ones suffering the lack of telephones. Dwellers in the larger centres of population suffer too. In Ipswich, where I live, there are about 300 people awaiting installation of telephones in their premises. I do not know of any insurmountable obstacles to the giving of such conveniences. During the war thousands of men served as signallers in the services. In that capacity they did work similar to that done by employees' of the Postmaster-General's Department. Great numbers of them have been released from the. forces. Under the Re-establishment and Employment Act, they are entitled to preference in employment. They could be employed by the Postmaster-General's Department in factories on the manufacture and installation of telephone apparatus. Representations have been made to me that the slaughter of beautiful trees and shrubs in Canberra has been intensified. Last week-end I drew the attention of the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Johnson) to the? matter, and his reply that a consultative committee of experts and citizens decided what trees should be lopped or removed and that such operations were necessary for structural reasons or because of disease. But I have been told not only that trees are unnecessarily chopped down, but also that other trees are hacked about in a way that no tree-lover would tolerate in his own garden. I- ask the Minister to call for a report and to make sure that there is a better check over this work. 2319 K9G 0 0 JOHNSON, Herbert Mr Johnson - The honorable member was supplied with a report. What has be to say to that? 2319 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - I am satisfied that the instructions mentioned in the report are being exceeded. The men who have been told to destroy . certain trees are destroying other trees as well. This is an important matter. A tree cannot grow in ten minutes. I ask the Minister to make sure that the responsible authorities keep a record of trees destroyed and give explicit instructions regarding pruning so that trees will not be seriously disfigured. Upon receiving recommendations regarding work to be carried out, the Minister should have a further check ma.de to sec that the decisions are not exceeded. 2319 KLL Hindmarsh ALP Minister for the Navy, Minister for Munitions and Minister for Aircraft Production 1 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr MAKIN . - The honorable member for Darwin (Dame Enid Lyons) asked that an investigation be made of pillaging on wharfs and also urged an improvement of Tasmanian shipping services. These matters will be brought to the notice of the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Senator Ashley) immediately with a view to having a complete review made of them. I shall also intimate to the Minister the urgency of the honorable member's request. -I assure the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron), who pressed for the more speedy repatriation of Italian prisoners of war, that the Government desires to comply in full with all international conventions on the subject. Prisoners of war will be returned to their own countries with all possible expedition. The honorable member also referred to a matter of policy regarding the immigration rights of prisoners of war formerly held in Australia. Ho said that men who had fought as our allies during the war should have prior rights over such persons. I agree wholeheartedly with him, and I am sure that the Government also does so. Men who identified themselves with our cause during the war should have first claim to consideration. We are in agreement on that subject. I have some doubts regarding the position in relation to sporting ammunition. I do not believe that any government action has caused the existing shortage. This matter does not come under my supervision as Minister for Munitions, but I recall that, even before the end of the war, sporting ammunition was not subject to government control. Sporting ammunition is manufactured by private firms, which are responsible for the distribution of supplies. That being so, I am doubtful whether the Government has any responsibility in the matter. However, I shall be glad to have the matter investigated and I shall supply the honorable member with full information on the subject next week. The honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) referred to the difference between the prices charged for milk at Ipswich and Brisbane respectively. I shall bring to the notice of the' Minister for Commerce and Agriculture his representations regarding the payment of subsidy to milk producers and will seek to get a reply before next Wednesday. Any alteration of postal charges is a matter of government policy. I have no doubt that an announcement will be made by the Prime Minister when the Government decides that they should be reviewed. In the meantime, the honorable member's representations will be considered. . On the subject of the destruction of trees and shrubs in Canberra, I am sure that the Minister for the Interior is earnestly endeavouring to preserve the beauty of our capital city. He is alert to the danger of unnecessarily destroying trees and shrubs, and will see that everything possible is done to prevent spoliation. I am sure that he will give further attention to the honorable member's representations. Question resolved in the affirmative. 2320 16:12:00 House adjourned at 4.12 p.m. 2320 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to question's were circulated: - 2320 2320 JLL 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr Abbott asked the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, upon notice - Is it a fact that the 5 per. cent. wool contributory charge levied on the Australian wool clip under the authority of Statutory Rules No. 103 of 1946, dated 26th June, 1946. will amount to a levy of approximately £3,000,000 per annum; if not, what is the approximate amount? Were grower organizations consulted regarding the amount of the levy, and, if so, what were their views concerning it? Will some of this money be used to contribute towards the salaries of officers on the Joint Organization overseas, and the Australian Wool Realization Commission? If so, will he have a table prepared showing the salaries, names and nature of employment of all officers in the service of (a) Joint Organization in Great Britain and (b) the Australian Wool Realization Commission, who arc in receipt of salaries of £1,000 and over per annum? 2320 KQB ALP 1 0 SCULLY, William Mr Scully - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - Any forecast of the total collections to be derived from the wool contributory charge could only be an estimate, which would depend upon such contingencies as seasonal conditions governing the growth and condition of the wool and the state of the market affecting the value and volume of sales. Wool-growing organizations made certain representations which were taken into consideration when the rate of contributory charge was determined. Provision for meeting- the operating expenses " of the wool disposals plan will be found in Part III. of the Schedule to the Wool Realization Act, No. 49 of 1945. As the war-time arrangement of acquirement by the United Kingdom Government of Australian wool by appraisement only ceased to operate on the 30th June, the full personnel of the machinery of the Joint Organization is only partially established. 2320 2320 F4U ALP 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr FORDE - On the 4th April the honorable member for Adelaide (Mr. Chambers) asked the following question : - Will the Minister representing the Minister for Defence furnish me with particulars of the total personnel taken into the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and the Women's Services, and also the total number of Australian' casualties, during the recent war? I now furnish the honorable member with the following information supplied by the service departments: - 2321 2321 JLZ 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr Anthony asked the Prime Minister, upon notice - How many (a) permanent and (b) temporary officers were employed in the Commonwealth Public Service at (i) the 31st December, 1941, (ii) the 31st December, 1945, and (iii) the latest available date? Have any departments created during war-time been abolished? If so, which departments, and what financial saving has been effected thereby? 2321 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr Chifley - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - It is regretted that details are not avail able as at the dates mentioned in the honorable member's questions. Information is, however, being compiled to enable replies to be given to questions on this subject already asked in the House of Representatives by the Honorable E. J. Harrison in April last, and the Honorable J. Francis on the 20th June last. A good deal of work is involved in compiling the necessary details, but when available it is thought that the information Willmeet the requirements of the honorable member and it will be made available to him. Yes. Two. Departments of War Organization of Industry and Home Security. It isdifficult to supply the information as regards savings effected thereby as some of the functions of each department were absorbed in other departments. 2321 2321 KUG 0 0 SPENDER, Percy Mr Spender asked the Minister for Transport, upon notice - Have any commitments been entered into by the Commonwealth Government with respect to the standardization of the railway gauge inany State? If so, what is the nature of such commitments, what sums of money are involved, and what authority (if any) has been obtained from the Parliament therefor? Will the Government undertake that no further or any commitments will be entered into or carried into effect until this Parliament has had an opportunity of discussing the wisdom of spending the large sums of money involved in the standardization of the railwaygauges of Australia, particularly having regard to the more urgent claims of other public developmental works and the limited funds available? 2321 KX7 ALP 1 0 WARD, Edward Mr Ward - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - Yes (a) The Commonwealth's proportion of the cost of the survey of the projected line between Kalgoorlie and Perth-Fremantle, as finally determined by agreement. (b) Provision was made for this expenditure in the 1945-46: Estimates. It is not the practice of this Government to expend moneys without the approval of the Parliament. The present Labour Government considers the standardization and modernization of Australian railways as an essential undertaking and considers that the present position does not reflect any credit on the previous anti-Labour Commonwealth governments whose neglect of this national work almost brought disaster to Australia in the war recently concluded. It is hoped to submit the plan to the Parliament very soon and to press on with this work which will mean so much to the national defence and development plans. 2321 2321 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY -Recently, the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) asked a question concerning the Australian Purchasing Mission, and I promised to have a statement prepared setting out the position of this body. The honorable member referred to the statement, of policy issued by the United States Department of State regarding the continuance of government purchasing by other countries in the United States of America. In this statement the United States Government declared itself in favour of a return to private channels in international trade and therefore desired that the activities of the various purchasing missions set up in the United States of America during the war should cease as soon as possible. The United States Government recognized that some government participation in trade may have to continue during the transitional period between war and peace, but considered that, as the transitional period drew to a close and emergency needs ceased to exist, the war-time purchasing missions should bc disestablished. This statement was issued on the 2nd April, 1946. By that date, the activities of the Australian Purchasing Mission - Commonwealth of Australia War Supplies Procurement - had already been considerably reduced in keeping with the Australian Government's policy of disbanding the war-time purchasing mission and" diverting trade to normal commercial channels. The United States Government was informed accordingly. It was pointed out to the United States Government, however, that while certain cOInmodities in short supply are still subject to international allocation or control by the United States Government, it would be necessary to procure them through government channels. Commodities still being procured in this way are tinned plate, aircraft spare parts, raw cotton and cotton yarn. The staff of Australian War Supplies Procurement has been reduced from its peak of over 600 officers to about 100. The number employed at the 30th June, 3945, was 407 and on the 6th May, 1946, 122. The staff at the 30th June, 1946, was expected to be 99, and it is anticipated that, by the end of this year, the agency will be completely disbanded. Its functions included procurement of military and essential civilian goods under lend-lease and Canadian mutual aid, cash procurement of goods not eligible for supply under lend-lease or Canadian mutual aid, the programming of war-time requirements, and negotiation with American agencies for the shipment of all. goods to Australia by sca and air. The total value of the goods procured by Australian War Supplies Procurement was approximately £550,000,000. When the existing operations of Australian War Supplies Procurement cease, provision will be made for the Australian Consulate-General in the United States of America to carry on such future government purchases as are required to meet the needs of Commonwealth Government departments. 2322 2322 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr Chifley - On the 20th June, the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) asked the following questions: - In view of the serious shortage of coal supplies throughout Australia, with its deplorable effect on industry, transport and the generation of electricity for power and domestic use, will the Prime Minister take up with the Government of New South Wales the following questions for joint action by the State Government and the Commonwealth Government in order to bring about a rapid increase of the production of coal: - 1. That double shifts be worked at all open-cut mines in New South Wales. 2. Immediate development of additional areas of open-cut working at Muswellbrook, Ben Bullen, and other suitable places, as recommended by Mr. Justice Davidson in his report on the coal-mining industry? Also is it not a fact that within two months of the start of stripping operations at the Muswellbrook open-cut, production was 1.000 tons of coal a day? The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows: - A double shift is already being operated partly at Muswellbrook on overburden removal and continuously on overburden removal at Commonwealth No. 2. A double shift is also operating on overburden development at Ben Cullen. Double shifts on coal production are dependent on the rate of removal of overburden which in turn depends upon the availability of machinery and upon weather conditions. New open-cut mines are being developed at Ben Bullen, Huon and Western Main in the western district and at Cardiff and Ayrfield No. 3 in the northern district. Further areas arc being prospected and/or investigated in the northern and south coast districts of New South Wales. At Muswellbrook within two months of commencing stripping operations, output reached 400 tons, not 1,000 tons. This has gradually expanded each quarter until the average production now is 1,500 to 1,600 tons a day. An additional 500 tons is expected from next week 1 and with further machinery available a still greater expansion is anticipated within a few weeks. 2323 2323 KLL ALP 1 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - On the 4th July, the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) asked the following questions, upon notice - Has any finality been reached on the negotiations with the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration for the placing of an order with the Clyde Engineering Company Limited, Granville, for the construction of locomotives for China? What is the extent of the order and the estimated purchase price? Will this order form part of the Commonwealth Government's contribution, to that administration? The answers to the honorable member's questions arc as follows: - Finality has not yet been reached, but the matter is under active discussion. The order was for 50 locomotives. The estimated purchase price cannot be quoted, as negotiations are not yet completed. Yes. 2322 2323 KCF ALP 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr Dedman - On the 26th June the honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Hadley) asked a question in which he referred to the recent reduction by 1d. a gallon of the price of petrol which, he said, motorists regarded as inadequate. The honorable member also referred to the tax on petrol, and asked that it be reduced by 2 1/2d. a gallon. I have conferred with the Minister for Trade and Customs on this matter and now inform the honorable member that the tax on petrol is a revenue tax, and any question of its reduction is linked with the general budgetary position andwill receive consideration by the Government, at the appropriate time. Petrol prices are continually under review and are adjusted periodically in accordance with changes of actual costs. The recent trend of costs has been downwards, and if this trend is maintained it will be reflected in lower prices. 2321 2323 F4U ALP 1 0 FORDE, Francis Michael Mr Forde - On the 3rd July the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) asked a question concerning the distribution of tobacco with reference to supplies for ex-servicemen. The National Security (Tobacco Rationing) Regulations were revoked as from the 31st March, 1946. Since that date the tobacco manufacturers have set up a central organization, the Tobacco Manufacturers Committee, and, in each State, a Tobacco Trade Distribution Committee. These bodies operate on a purely voluntary basis, but it is understood that the aim of the tobacco manufacturers is to continue the distribution of tobacco on the same lines as existed under the National Security Regulations. Complaints have been received from time to time by the Department of Trade and Customs regarding the distribution of tobacco by the tobacco manufacturers, but, as the Commonwealth Government now has no authority in the matter, these complaints have been referred to the Tobacco Manufacturers Committee. It is suggested that the honorable member should adopt the same course in regard to any complaints received by him. 2321 2321 KLL ALP 1 0 MAKIN, Norman Mr Makin - On the 27th June the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) asked me a question concerning the issue of discharge certificates in the Navy. This matter has been taken up with the naval authorities, and I now inform the honorable member that, when a rating is entered into the Navy, a certificate of service is prepared in which is shown the ships and establishments in which he has served, examinations passed, and medals awarded, together with an assessment of his character and efficiencey at the 31st December of each year during his service. This certificate, which is given to the rating on discharge, is his passport through life, and is of material assistance in obtaining subsequent employment. This form of certificate, has been in existence since the inception of the Royal Australian Navy, and is amended from time to time te meet existing conditions. A great majority of- naval ratings would prefer their certificate of service to a discharge certificate such as is issued by the Army and the Air Force. The question of issuing a discharge certificate in addition to the certificate of service will be the subject of review.