1947-10-16 18 1 3 REPS 865 0 House of Representatives. 1947-10-16 Mr. Speaker (Bom. £. & Rosevear) took the chair' at 2.30 p.nr., and1 read prayers. 866 miscellaneous Nationalization : Petitions 866 JLR Maranoa 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN . - I present a petition from certain electors of the division of Maranoa, praying that no further steps be taken to nationalize the banking system in Australia until a referendum of the people has first been held. In moving - That the petition be received, I wish to say that, although this petition is respectfully worded and is otherwise in conformity with the rules and orders of the, House, I have received other petitions and letters containing many thousands of names which arc not so worded as to entitle me to present them to the House. In due course, I shall present them . to the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley). Question resolved in the affirmative. Petition received and read. Other petitions in relation to banking in Australia were presented as follows. - By Mr. FRANCIS, from certain electors of the division of Moreton. By Mr. HAMILTON, from certain electors of Western Australia. By Mr. ARCHIE CAMERON, from certain resident of Echunga, South Australia. By Mr. ANTHONY, from certain electors of the divisions of Richmond and New England. By Mr. ABBOTT, from certain electors of the division of New England. By Mr. HOWSE, from certain electors of the division of Calare. Petitions received and read. 866 questions 866 866 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to a special article published in the Sydney Morning Herald to-day, under the name of C. Griffiths, a member of the Australian Labour party executive, who is obviously an official spokesman for the Labour party, in which these statements are made - Labour does not consider the election of a few Communists to. union leadership as a matter ' of extraordinary importance or even one calling for investigation. Labour is not nervous about the Communist party's activities or future . . . and in which the writer says, in. effect, that there is nc difference between the Communist and Australian Labour party policies? Do these statements represent the official view of the Australian Labour party towards Communists, and does the Prime Minister subscribe to the view that the policies of both Labour and Communist parties are similar? 866 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - First, I have not read to-day's newspapers and therefore I have not seen the article to which the honorable member has referred. Secondly, I am in no way responsible for any statements made by Mr. Griffiths. Thirdly, Mr. Griffiths does not speak for the Australian Labour party either in the Commonwealth or State spheres. The president of the Australian Labour party speaks on behalf of that organization. Fourthly, as to whether the policies of the Communist and Labour parties are similar, the answer is " No . 866 866 JYV 0 0 FULLER, Arthur Mr FULLER - Does the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture know whether there .is any foundation in fact for the allegations in this morning's press that s black market exists for second-hand cornsacks? Has any variation been made in the past policy of the Australian Wheat Board, which has refused to accept secondhand sacks or is any variation intended ? Will the Minister discuss with the Prices Branch the need for an investigation of the press report and, if it be well founded, ask the branch to take steps to protect the interests of the wheat growers? . Have State railway and silo authorities undertaken to co-operate with the Australian Wheat Board in handling and transporting the expected record crop in the coming season ? Is the board satisfied that it has sufficient cornsacks available to avoid unnecessary delay to growers during harvesting operations? 866 KYC ALP 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I know of no evidence that there is a black market in second-hand cornsacks, and I doubt whether there is, but, should there be, I shall be glad to discuss the problem with the Prices Commissioner in an endeavour to ensure adequate attempts to prevent it. I know of no change of the policy of the Australian Wheat Board to refuse delivery of wheat in second-hand sacks. A. good reason exists for that policy. I believe that the Australian Government and the Australian Wheat Board can expect from- the State railway authorities and the silo authorities the fullest possible co-operation in the handling of the wheat crop. Owing to the promised bountiful nature of the crop, the cornsack situation may be tight, but I am sure that the railway authorities, the silo authorities and the wheat-farmers will have sufficient Australian initiative to overcome any problems that may arise. 867 JLL 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr ABBOTT - Last week, I asked the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture to supply a statement showing the number of cornsacks for wheat in store in Australia, the number in transit from India, the number ordered in India but not yet shipped, and the approximate dates of loading. "When will the Minister be able to supply this information? 867 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I shall be glad to supply the information as soon as I receive it. 867 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr RANKIN - Can the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture either verify or deny the press report that cornsacks unsold last season, when the price was 16s. a dozen, are now being sold to wheat farmers at 27s. 6d. a dozen? Does the honorable gentleman know what number of cornsacks will be available for the forthcoming wheat crop? 867 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I know approximately the number of cornsacks available in Australia to-day, but I shall not mention the figure because I should like the honorable member to be given exact information. Subject to information that I might glean from a further check, 1 should say that it is the practice of the Australian Wheat Board to sell wheat, sacks at varying prices, and that it is» quite possible that wheat sacks which twelve months ago cost the hoard 16s. a dozen are now being sold at 28s. a dozen. The honorable member will be pleased to know that there is an equitable distribution of the sacks cost involved among those who contribute bagged wheat to the pool. Therefore, if a wheat-grower now pays 28s. a dozen for sacks, he will receive a return later when the sack factor has been equalized by the wheat pool. 867 867 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - I ask the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture whether arrangements have recently been completed for the export of a very large parcel of oats from Australia to Belgium at 7s. or 8s. a bushel. As the guaranteed price of oats to growers is 3s. 3d. a bushel, will the Minister inform the House what will be done with the difference between 3s. 3d. and- the 7s. or 8s., if those figures are correct? I understand that about £A. 60,000 is involved in the transaction 867 KYC ALP 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - Before the opening of last season, the Australian Government did guarantee a price at sidings to known oat-growers for oats delivered to the Australian Barley Board. Recently, owing to the promise of a very good grain crop, authority has been given to the board to export some of the government owned oats. The price obtained is reasonably good. Use of the money paid for those oats is a matter of Government policy,' which is now under the consideration of the Department of Commerce and Agriculture, and no announcement can be made until it has been decided. The Government paid a fair price for oats last season and will pay an increased price for the forthcoming crop. 867 867 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - Will the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture inform me what action, if any, has been taken to set up the board in accordance with the provisions of the Apple and Pear Organization Act, which the Parliament passed last June. What is the reason for the long delay in appointing the board ? When is it likely to be appointed? 867 KYC ALP 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - Action has been taken to set up this hoard, but necessarily, in the appointment of a new authority, a good deal of machinery work is involved. That preliminary work is still proceeding, 'and, in due course, the Government, will announce when the board is to be established. 867 867 L0F 0 0 RUSSELL, Edgar Mr RUSSELL - Has the Minister for Housing read in the press a statement in which Mr. W. J. Wainwright.. Director of Building Materials in South Australia, is reported as having said - There would be less houses built in the coming year in South Australia because of the shortage of materials. Can the Minister inform me whether the shortage ofbuilding materials is general throughout Australia? If so, will this cause a reduction of the number of homes to be built this year? Will he also inform the House who is responsible for the production of building materials in the various States ? 868 L0X ALP 1 0 LEMMON, Nelson Mr LEMMON - I did read in the press the statement which Mr. Wainwright is reported to have made. An officer of my department is now visiting Western Australia and South Australia, and when he returns to Canberra, I shall discuss with him the alleged shortage of materials in South Australia. I do not agree with the assertion that, because of the shortage of materials, fewer houses will be built in that State in the coming year. If it were correct, South Australia would be the only State in which fewer houses would be built this year compared with last year. Last week, the Premier of Western Australia, Mr. McLarty, said that Western Australia had achieved a record in building construction. It is true that there is a shortage of materials in relation to the demand for them, but it is also true that the production of major basic materials has exceeded all previous records. In addition, more men are now employed in the building industry than ever before. That position is due mainly to the excellent work of the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction in arranging for the training of ex-servicemen so that they may engage in this industry. The honorable member finally asked who is responsible for the productionof building materials. Because the people rejected a referendum proposal toconfer upon the Commonwealth the necessary authority, the control of materials has reverted to the States, and, in general, they have done a very good job. 868 Valuations and Receipts 868 KZJ 0 0 LANG, John Mr LANG - I ask the Treasurer whether independent valuations are ob tained of goods handled by the Commonwealth Disposal Commission prior to sale? What is the estimated total value of the goods already sold ? What amount has been received from the proceeds of such sales? What proportion of such revenue has been used for the redemption of loans,or is it the practice of the Government to pay the entire proceeds into ConsolidatedRevenue? 868 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - Some of the information desired by the honorable member will take a little time to obtain. Independent valuations are obtained in order to ascertain what would be fair prices for the goods to be sold. I shall obtain the other information that the honorable member desires and let him have it as early as possible. 868 868 KEP 0 0 FALKINDER, Charles Mr FALKINDER - In view of the grave difficulties being experienced by business firms and householders in Tasmania as a result of the restricted shipping services with the mainland, I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Shipping whether the Bass Strait steamer Nairanahas been idle for nine weeks and whether its crew has been paid off? Is it a fact that because of the high estimated cost of necessary repairs to the steamer its present owners are anxious to sell the vessel but have been refused permission to do so? Did representatives of the Australian Governmentexamine the vesselmore than amonth ago in enterto estimate the cost of refitting it? Has such an estimate been made, and, if so, why, in view of theurgency of the matter, have the owners not been advised of the result ? 868 KCF ALP 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - It can hardly be expected that I could answer such questions offhand. It appears to me from what the honorable gentleman said that some misapprehensions exist in regard to the subject, for I cannot see how the Australian Government or its shipping authority could prevent a private company from selling a ship if it wished to do so. I shall refer the whole subject to the Minister for Supply and Shipping. 869 869 KDB 0 0 EDMONDS, William Mr EDMONDS - A desperate shortage of soap is causing great inconvenience in north Queensland, and in this connexion I have received a letter from the Collinsville Co-operative Stores. Collinsville is a coal-mining centre and I am informed that it is impossible to buy a bar of soap in the town. I ask the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture whether he will indicate the exact position in regard to soap supplies, and also the future prospects. In any case, will the honorable gentleman give his immediate attention to arranging for supplies to be forwarded to Collinsville without delay? 869 KYC ALP 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The honorable member is no doubt well aware that the Australian Government has no power whatsoever over the distribution of products within Australia. It is quite possible that adequate supplies of soap are available in Australia to meet all requirements, but it is also possible that inadequate reserves exist and that as the result of maladministration of distribution facilities and the lack of coordination on the part of manufacturers and distributors, soap may not be available at some centres where it is urgently required. This illustrates the stupidity of the present system of distribution. It is also true that the lack of reserves of soap may be due to two other factors over which the Government has no control, one being the inadequate supply of soda ash and soda potash, which are essential constituents of soap and upon the supply of which we are dependent on overseas sources, and the other the supply of tallow. The Government has no control over tallow manufacturers or processors, and it is probable that insufficient supplies of tallow have been made available to soap manufacturers to enable them to provide an adequate reserve of soap. I shall take steps to do whatever can be done on a voluntary basis to increase the supply of soap to the important centre of Collinsville which is represented by the honorable member. 869 Printing and Distribution of Speeches. 869 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HOLT - Last night, the Prime Minister was good enough to circulate to honorable members printed copies of his second-reading speech on the Banking Bill printed by the Government Printer, presumably at public expense. Can the right honorable gentlemansay how many copies of that speech have been or are to be printed, and whether he will arrange for the prompt printing of a corresponding number of copies of the second-reading speech that will be delivered by the Leader of the Opposition when the debate on the bill is resumed? 869 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - And by the Leader of the Australian Country party. 869 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - It has been the practice in the Senate to circulate copies of second-reading speeches by Ministers. Such speeches give an explanation of the bill that is under consideration. I forget what number of copies was printed of the speech which I made last night, but believe that an order was given for 1,500. Those were distributed. The honorable member for Richmond requested on one occasion that copies of a second-reading speech by a Minister in this House should be circulated, and that request was acceded to. 869 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - We appreciate that. 869 A48 0 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - It has not been the practice of the Government to print or circulate more than an explanation of legislation. It is not likely that speeches criticizing legislation will be specially printed. However, I shall examine the matter; but I am not hopeful of being able to accede to the honorable member's request. 869 869 KJQ 0 0 JAMES, Rowland Mr JAMES - Will the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction explain the reason for the delay in the establishment of a nylon factory by Courtauld Enterprises at Raymond Terrace, on the Hunter River? Has the provision of a water supply to the proposed f actory been the difficulty? Has that difficulty been removed? Can the honorable gentleman say when a start is likely to be made with the establishment of the factory, which I understand will employ about 5,000 people? 869 KCF ALP 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - The firm of Courtauld Enterprises is interestedin commencing operation's in the locality named by the honorable member. Only yesterday, I met two of the directors of the firm, who had come from the United Kingdom. I believe that, after they have made certain investigations, there will be considerably more expedition towards the commencement of operations than has been the case during the last twelve months. I understand that there have been certain difficulties in relation to supplies of water, but I have been informed that discussions on that matter havetaken place with the Government of New South "Wales and have proved very satisfactory. There are other difficulties in connexion with the supply of labour of the types required in this industry. I believe that the directors from the United Kingdom who are visiting Australia are quite impressed with the potentialities of the locality in which the factory is to be established. The mere fact that they are interested in establishing a factory there at an early date shows that the financial policy of this Government does not appear to place any obstacle in the way of overseas firms embarking on new enterprises in Australia. 870 Land Sales Control 870 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - I understand that the administration of Land Sales Control is still being exercised under the authority of the Government's war-time defence power, notwithstanding that the war has been over for more than two years. Will the Prime Minister say whether it is in accordance with government policy that that administration should refuse permission to a citizen to buy land or property at a stated price, on the ground that that price is regarded as excessive, but that the Government itself may subsequently purchase such land at a price in excess of the value at which the private citizen had been prevented from completing the transaction ? 870 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - If the honorable member will give me particulars of the transaction, I will be glad to examine the matter. 870 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - I have mentioned it in this House. 870 A48 0 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - I am sorry that I did not hear the honorable member. I believe that there was a case in Tasmania of a government instrumentality, not a government department, paying a higher price for land than was regarded as fair by Land Sales Control. I spoke to the Minister concerned, and the necessary action was taken to ensure that the price paid would be in accordance with what was regarded as a fair value. Whenever it has come to my notice that the Government has purchased land - there have been only a few instances - I have taken action to ensure that the purchase price shall be no greater than what is regarded as a fair value. I regret that I have not seen the honorable member's remarks. If he will tell me on what day they were made, I shall study them. 870 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - I shall do that. 870 Departmental Accommodation at Henty House, Melbourne. 870 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - Before arrangements are completed for the compulsory acquisition of Henty House, Melbourne, by the Department of Civil Aviation, and the evacuation of the tenants, including some ex-servicemen, who are established therein, will the Minister for the Interior explore the possibility of obtaining accommodation in Victoria Barracks, or in Albert Park Barracks, Melbourne, where, I am informed, there is ample room? 870 K9G ALP 1 0 JOHNSON, Herbert Mr JOHNSON - Lengthy negotiations took place between the department and the owner of Henty House before it was decided to acquire the property, and every effort was made to obtain possession by lease, but without success. The accommodation at Victoria Barracks and Albert Park Barracks is already overtaxed. 870 870 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - A few days ago, I asked the Minister representing the Minister acting for the Attorney-General why a well-known magistrate in Western Australia, Mr. Wallwork, had resigned after being appointed as a conciliation commissioner to the Northern Territory. I was informed that it was because he disliked travelling. I now propose to read the following telegram: - Statement Holloway appearing local press my resignation due dislike travel utterly false travel should read being pushed around stop refer my letter at Gen thirteenth October no objections any time travelling or duties assigned stop My objections were transfer Melbourne also complete severance W Ausn duties particularly coal mining railways stop Was pleased Territory Assignment and prospect meeting you. Regards.Wallwork. Seeing that a grave injustice has been done to this man, will the Minister correct the statement which he made, and affirm that the real reason for the resignation was that Mr. Wallwork objected to being pushed around by officers of the Attorney-General's Department? It is desirable that the people of "Western Australia should know the real reason for the resignation. 871 KHL ALP 1 0 HOLLOWAY, Edward Mr HOLLOWAY - The statement which I made several days ago was not untrue. As a matter of fact, I let the man down lightly. Perhaps, I did not elaborate the matter sufficiently because I did not wish to talk too much about a man's private business. The fact is that when the new conciliation commissioners were sworn in, the Chief Judge of the Arbitration Court had the duty of allocating the work which was to be done. Mr. Wallwork was sworn in the same as the others, and there was no stipulation as to where he or any of the commissioners would be required to work. The Chief Judge prescribed that part of Mr. Wallwork's work was to be done outside of Western Australia, and part of it within the State. Mr. Wallwork resigned when he learned that some of the duties would have to be performed outside the State of Western Australia. I said in reply to the honorable member's question that Mr. Wallwork had resigned because he did not like travelling from the State in which he resides. If that was an inaccurate statement I am prepared to withdraw it, and I will say that he resigned because he did not like to perform duties allocated to him outside Western Australia. 871 871 J7U 0 0 LYONS, Enid Dame ENID LYONS - Can the Prime Minister say whether any instructions have been issued, and if so, what instructions, to the Australian delegation to the United Nations Assembly as to the convention in relation to the crime of genocide - that is, the deliberate destruction of religious, racial, national and other groups - and in relation to the prevention of compulsory mass sterilization, abortion, the systematic disruption of families, and the kidnapping of children ? 871 A48 ALP 1 0 CHIFLEY, Ben Mr CHIFLEY - I will give the honorable member a considered reply in writing. 871 miscellaneous In Committee of Supply: Consideration resumed from the 15th October(vide page 820). Defence and Post-war (1939-45) Charges - Defence and Service Departments Proposed vote, £65,782,000. Production Departments Proposed vote, £9,248,000. Reciprocal Lend-Lease Proposed vote, £300,000. Re-establishment and Repatriation. Proposed vote, £30,959,000. International Relief and Rehabilitation Proposed vote, £4,025,000. Subsidies Proposed vote, £26,050,000. Miscellaneous Proposed vote, £2,384,000. (Ordered to be considered together.) 871 KCA Capricornia 0 0 DAVIDSON, Charles Mr DAVIDSON . - The honorable member for Calare (Mr. Howse) has spoken on naval matters on this item, and I propose to say something about the Army. My remarks will not be critical of the Government's defence policy. I may seek another opportunity for that purpose, but for the moment I shall devote myself to the method in which it is proposed to expend the money which has been voted for defence purposes. Any reference which I may make to policy will be incidental, and mainly for the purpose of making my point clear. The policy of the Government is that the defence of Australia is to be provided first of all by a permanent military force. Evidently, this permanent force is to be regarded .as a nucleus around which is to be formed, in time of need, a fighting force, by the absorption of trained reserves. Those reserves, it would appear, are to be drawn from a trained citizen force. We should remember that in the future Australia is not likely to have such an opportunity to train its fighting men as it had in the last two wars. In those wars, there was available to Australia a considerable breathing space in which to train raw recruits to a point where they could take their place in a fighting force. I am firmly convinced that, in the event of another war, such a breathing space will not be accorded us. It will be a case of defending ourselves bitterly from the very beginning of hostilities. Therefore, our defence force must provide for the training of a defence force which can take its place in the field at short notice. The success of the Government's defence policy will depend largely on the method followed in the training of reserves. I am not afraid of what is likely to happen in respect of the training of the permanent forces. We can leave that with confidence in the hands of our military authorities. But the training of the citizen forces, from which the reserves which will expand our permanent forces into a fighting force will be drawn, is to be determined by government policy. Therefore it is of particular importance that we should ensure that that training is efficient and effective, particularly in view of the fact that the amount to be made available to be expended for that purpose is necessarily limited. As one who has had considerable personal experience of military training I condemn utterly the training system proposed for the citizen forces. The Government's proposals for the training of the citizen forces provides, first, for a continuation of the system of voluntary enlistment. That means that only the cream of our youth will offer for training. I regret to say that it is my belief that that in itself will considerably limit the field available. But there is a more important factor which must ' be taken into account. This system also means that if we have to take part in another war the cream of our youth will be called upon to bear the full brunt of the first onslaught. That has taken place, not only in Australian history, but also in the history of other nations on several occasions in the past. It means that the cream of the country's youth, which is called upon to bear the first bitter onslaught, will also be called on to die in great numbers. Any policy which deliberately or otherwise sets out to perpetuate such a system, which is so dangerous to the continuance of a high level of citizenship, is disastrous. We know that present-day wars are " all in " affairs, that every man and many women will be called on to do his or her part, and as I have already pointed out, all must be trained to carry out the particular task to which they are assigned. In short, an adequate defence policy must provide for all those likely to take part in hostilities to be prepared to fight at the traditional " drop of the handkerchief ". I do not like having to say this ; I am no jingoist; but I have too many times been under conditions of utter horror ever to want to see any of our youth forced to face similar conditions. But the facts must be faced. We may be called upon to defend ourselves, and if we are, the .only chance of success will lie in our capacity to look after ourselves. A consideration of the factors I have briefly outlined gives rise to two inescapable deductions. The first is that every man, be he " duke's son, cook's son, or son of an engineer ", must be included in the training programme. In short, there must be no opportunity for the laggard to leave it to the other fellow. That remark is not a general condemnation of our youth ; it simply means that we must face up to the fact that there are many youths in the community, particularly under present-day conditions, who give no thought to their great responsibilities to the nation. .Under the system the Government proposes to adopt, no opportunity will be given to them to measure up to their full responsibilities. The second deduction is that our military training must be of such a character as to ensure that every man, when trained, can, at short notice, take his place in the field as an efficient soldier, capable of giving a good account of himself and not proving, as was the case so many times in the past, mere cannon fodder. I invite honorable members -who have had experience of active service to cast their minds back to the number of times they have seen their units built up by reinforcements and in a following action the majority of the casualties taking place among the reinforcements. Intensive training is essential if we are to give our young men a fair chance of survival should the testing time come. Let us consider how the present programme will measure up to the factors I have mentioned. It is prescribed that in one year training is to be provided on the basis of fourteen days' compulsory training and 24 days' home training, a total of 38 days. Of the 24 days' home training, twelve days only are obligatory; the remainder are voluntary and will, I assume, be carried out under some system of night parades as was the case previously. In short, there appears to be a continuation of the same ineffective system which found Australia at the commencement of World War II. almost entirely incapable of offering adequate defence at short notice. When laying down defence policy it is desirable to ensure that the training is of such a character as to avoid giving the impression to our youths that it is something to bo avoided. If when they start this voluntary training, they see - as they will see - that it is a sheer waste of time, there will be established in their minds an entirely erroneous impression . and, perhaps, an invitation to attempt to avoid training. The system of training proposed for the citizen forces will represent a wanton waste of money. It is well known to any one with a sound knowledge of modern warfare that at least three months intensive training are required to train a raw recruit in the use of personal weapons, the rifle and bayonet, the Bren gun, and the mortar. I am confining my remarks to the Army, because it is the only arm of which I have any knowledge. Further, it takes more than three months to perfect a man in field training. Only at the end of a period of six months' training is a recruit able to take his proper place as an efficient soldier in the fighting forces, whether it be in a platoon, a company, a battalion, a troop, a battery or a regiment. It must be remembered also that to give a young man six months' intensive training of that kind, unbroken by any form of sport, would be ridiculous. The man of military experience knows that considerable periods of training, in which there is interspersed various sports and other subjects designed to develop esprit de corps, are essential to a complete training policy. The demands of our present economic position and the demands for man-power for the rehabilitation of the country make a complete defence system, such as I have been leading up to, in this country unthinkable at present. I cannot he sure, hut I hope I am right in doubting whether we shall have to defend Australia in the next two years. So I doubt whether an ideal defence policy is advisable at present, but it is essential, since we need to turn as much of the finances of the country to reconstruction a9 is possible and to reserve man-power to develop industries, that the money we spend on, and the men we attract to, the defence forces, shall be used in the most effective manner, so that, by the expenditure of the minimum amount, we may he able to develop a force that will be capable of defending Australia, if necessary. Under the proposed system we shall never have forces, apart from the permanent forces, capable of taking the field unless we are again fortunate enough to have a considerable breathing space at the beginning of the war in which to train our reserves. My remarks do not convey any personal criticism of those responsible for the matter, but I know what I am talking about and I hope that further consideration will be given by the Government to the defence policy on which money is proposed to be expended. 873 JWR Adelaide ALP Minister for the Army 1 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS , - I appreciate the tone of the comments of the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Davidson). I have been associated with him in his own district on military matters, and I must say that he has always been fair to my department. His remarks were generally directed to the proposed vote for the Department of Defence, but the Department of the Army- is greatly concerned in the application of the defence policy. The honorable gentleman referred to the kind of training necessary for tie militia forces and expressed fears as to whether sufficient numbers of our Australian manhood would be prepared to take up arms if the occasion arose again. The Government has, in collaboration with its military advisers, given serious consideration to all phases of the defence of Australia. Recently Field Marshal Montgomery came to Australia. Most honorable members know that he expressed views as to the dangers that may confront the world in a future war. He is recognized by world military authorities as a military leader of great capacity who won notable victories and can speak with authority as to the prospects of another war. Since the end of the war he has visited most of the countries that were engaged in the war, and, at the conclusion of my discussions with him, I felt that the world was not faced with the prospects of another war for some years. I think I rightly state the views of that great soldier when I say that. He may be wrong and the honorable (member for Capricornia may be right. 874 KCA 0 0 DAVIDSON, Charles Mr Davidson - I did not say that I expected another war shortly. 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - No ; but last night an Opposition member said that we might have war almost within "24 hours. We know that that is not likely. Against whom could we go to war to-day ? Let us survey the world. Some one may ask who our allies are. The United States of America is our natural ally and it will be our ally for all time. After the 1914-18 war, Germany was left intact. Its industrial capacity wa9 not touched. It lost men in that war, but fro,m: 1919 onwards, it was in a position to go to war at almost any time. The situation to-day in Germany is entirely different. Its industrial capacity no longer exists. The position in Russia has been examined by world authorities. No less an authority than Field Marshal Montgomery, who has recently returned from Russia, has just expressed the opinion that that country's industrial capacity to wage war cannot be brought into efficient motion for many years. 874 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - That is assuming that Russia has not discovered the secret of the atomic bomb, no doubt. 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - After my appointment as Minister for the Army last year, I spent the Christmas vacation in Japan and I travelled extensively through the areas occupied by the American troops and by the British Commonwealth Occupation Force. I saw the effect of the total destruction of Hiroshima, where the first atomic bomb was dropped. 1 often wish honorable members were given the opportunity of visiting Japan. 874 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr Ryan - Hear, hear ! 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - There is nothing political in that. If members were given that opportunity, they would have a different outlook on the world situation. Having seen the devastation caused by atomic bombs in Japan, I am convinced that in another war in which atomic energy was used, it would not matter, except, of course, from the point of view of casualties, whether we put 1,000,000 or 1,000 men in the field. That was an experimental bomb. It killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese. The victims included not only persons who were in the vicinity of the explosion but also thousands of others who died months later as the result of radio-activity. That leads me to the conclusion that if there is another war and the nations use atomic energy as a weapon, it will be the end of civilization. 874 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - That is a policy of despair. 874 KFQ 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - It is a policy of " no defence at all ". 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Australia is not in a position, after World War II., to conscript all its man-power for the defence of Australia. Our industries urgently require man-power. 874 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - We are not talking about conscription. 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Davidson) did, and he will admit that he referred to compulsory military training. 874 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - That is not conscription. 874 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - If that is not conscription, I should like to know what is. I remind the honorable member for' Balaclava (Mr. White) that a government of which he was a member was in office for more than six years prior to the outbreak of World War II. in 1939. Late in 1938, it was evident that the world would be at war again. 875 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - The Minister did not think so. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - I did think so. The honorable member for Balaclava can not produce any newspaper which reported me as having said that I did not think there would be a war at the end of 1938. 875 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - No member of the Labour party thought that there would be a war at the end of 1938. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - At least there were rumblings, in 1938, that we would be at war with Germany, and the government of the day did not introduce compulsory military training. 875 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - Who abolished compulsory military training? 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Compulsory military training was never abolished. It was suspended. Even now, it is not abolished, but suspended. In 1938, the government of the day did not see fit to introduce compulsory military training, although there were rumblings of war. 875 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - There still are. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - The nations have not the capacity to wage war now as they had in 1939. Therefore, I contend that the principle which is being laid down for our post-war defence, with voluntary training, and a permanent military force of 19,000 men who will have continual training- 875 KFQ 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - Most of them will be engaged in defence administration. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - They will- not. There will be cadres from the 19,000 men, and they will be used in conjunction with the training of the militia forces. There will be 50,000 men- 875 KCA 0 0 DAVIDSON, Charles Mr Davidson - The permanent force will have about 4,500 fighting men. The remainder will be attached to lines of communication. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Many of the men will be in combatant units and others will instruct the militia forces. I believe that, in the second year after the conclusion of the most dreadful war in history, that force is sufficient. If there were rumblings of another war, and there are not to-day- 875 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - The Minister must be deaf. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - I am not deaf, but I am not led away by the story that the United States of America and Russia will be at war to-morrow. I have sufficient intelligence to know that Germany cannot now go to war with Great Britain or Australia. The United States of America will not go to war. Even if Russia were at war with the United States of America, I do not contend that it would be necessary to have compulsory military training in Australia. 875 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - That is an interesting statement. We can differ from the Minister there. 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Of course, the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) can hold a view different from my own. We all are guessing. However, I believe that the prospects of war are not like .they were in 1938. Even in that year, the government of the day did not see fit to introduce compulsory military training. Surely, then, honorable members opposite do not expect the Government to introduce that system two years after the conclusion of World War II. I believe that the numbers of our defence forces at the present time are quite sufficient, and will not constitute an unnecessary drag upon the industrial capacity of Australia. We need, in industry, all the men that we can obtain, and we cannot afford to divert them to other avenues. This force will be completely sufficient. for the time and if, as in 1938, we hear rumblings of real war, not just a political war or a press war, we shall re-examine the situation and decide whether it is necessary to introduce some other form of training which will be required in the event of war. 875 KFQ 0 0 GULLETT, Henry Mr Gullett - Is the period of training long enough ? 875 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - Canada is much nearer to any war zone than is Australia, yet we are providing almost the same period of training as the Canadian forces receive. 876 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - But Canada is much closer to a big regular army than is Australia. 876 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - It is not a big Tegular army. The defence policy of Canada, and the conditions, are almost identical with those of Australia. If the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) is interested, I shall disclose to him the whole of the Canadian set-up. I discussed it with the Canadian Minister for Defence, Mr. Brooke Claxton, recently. 876 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - Unlike Canada, Australia is not adjacent to a great country like the United States of America, which has a big army. 876 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - And we are not so seriously situated geographically as Canada is at the moment. 876 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr Blain - Who told the Minister that? 876 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - I am confident that the defence policy which the Government has formulated is quite competent at the present time to satisfy all the defence requirements of Australia. If the situation were seriously to change, we would undoubtedly review the position. 876 KHY 0 0 HOWSE, John Mr Howse - Is it not a political spark which causes a war? 876 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - I should not say so. A country must have the means of waging war .before it will engage in hostilities. In these days of mechanized scientific warfare, a country could not go to war unless it had the requisite materials. The next war will see an even greater application of science and use of mechanization than in World War II. 876 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - If a country is weak, it invites attack. 876 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr CHAMBERS - A few days ago, a Minister was criticized on the ground that he occupied time to which private members were entitled. We are doing all that can be expected in the circumstances prevailing after World War II., and the forces for which we have provided are quite sufficient to carry out the responsibilities which will devolve upon them at this period. 876 KNX Wentworth 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON . - The Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) has made some remarks which, if taken in their entirety, indicate that he is completely out of step with the general international situation as it is seen by those who are on the spot. I do not desire to traverse the observations that have been made in regard to defence generally, but I wish to refer specifically to .two statements made by the Minister, for they show clearly that we cannot place much reliance on what he says, for the two statements to which I shall refer indicate his complete lack of understanding of the realities of the international situation and show that he is shirking the responsibilities of the important position which he occupies. The honorable gentleman said that a very high military expert, in discussing the possibilities of Russia being able to wage a world war, expressed the opinion that Russia would not be capable of waging a world war within the next few years. The Minister's remarks were indeed fatuous, and remind one of the opinions expressed prior to the last war by so-called experts relative to the capacity of certain other countries to go to war. There is no doubt that to-day Russia is wielding the heavy bludgeon against the smaller nations in Europe, and is doing so without challenge. Does the Minister for the Army consider that Russia is engaged in a gigantic bluff, or that it can hoodwink the other nations? Would Russian leaders make such remarks as they are making unless they were prepared for their country to take full responsibility for what might happen? Such statements as the Minister has made are mischievous, and cannot be allowed to pass without criticism, particularly as they relate to a nation which seems to be set on pursuing a policy of political and imperial aggrandizement. The statement that I have quoted was provocative enough, but the Minister went on to say that if Russia went to war with America, it would not necessarily follow that Australia would have to introduce conscription. Those were important words to fall from the lips of a responsible Minister, who was a supporter of a government the Prime Minister of which, in the early days of World War II., appealed, without any sense of inhibition, to America to seek help for Australia against the totalitarian powers which were assailing this country. The United States did not hesitate to apply conscription to its own people in order to resist fascist and other totalitarian aggression, and it sent troops, with all necessary equipment, to Australia to help this country also to resist such aggression. America became a complete ally of Australia during "World War II., and substantially helped this country, with men, arms and munitions, to become a first-rate fighting force. Yet the Minister for the Army would have us believe that if the United States found itself in dire distress and at war with Russia it would not necessarily follow that conscription would have to be applied in this country, and that we would not need to do anything to help America in that regard at all. 877 JWR 0 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr Chambers - I did not say that. 877 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr HARRISON - The Minister said we would not have to conscript troops in this country in order to help America if battle were joined between that country and Russia. But surely the honorable gentleman realizes that nothing short of a total war effort would be demanded of us, which would include conscription, if America called on us for help. I direct attention to the loose statements made by the Minister for the Army, because I think it is essential that our people should not he misled in these matters. Such statements may do a good deal of damage in a democratic country among peace-loving people. We must not blind ourselves to the fact that if war occurred it would be total war. That possibility must not be allowed to slip out of the minds of our people. There should be an early debate in this Parliament on defence policy, particularly in view of the outlook that the Minister for the Army seems to have on the international situation. The sooner provision is made for a full dress debate on defence policy the better it will he for everybody. The Australian people should be informed of government policy, and of the views of individual Ministers and members on this subject. 877 KRI Boothby 0 0 SHEEHY, Thomas Mr SHEEHY . - I wish to' discuss defence policy in relation to the senior service, the Royal Australian Navy. I am glad to notice that the proposed vote for the Navy exceeds £20,000,000, the exact figure being £20,601,000. I firmly believe, and have frequently said, that it is of the utmost importance to Australia that a first-class navy shall be maintained. We need an effective navy, not only as a striking force, but also as an agency for transporting men and supplies to wherever they may be needed. Our Navy needs to be maintained on an up-to-date pattern. Through the courtesy of the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Riordan), I had the privilege of being aboard H.M.S. Glory when that aircraft carrier was engaged in exercises recently, and I was deeply impressed by the capable way in which the vessel was handled. I was astounded to learn from members of the crew, while I was watching rocket practice, that one of the rockets had a fire power equal to that of an 8-in. gun. That, certainly, is a considerable striking force. One realizes, of course, that they do not have the fire power range of a cruiser's guns. But I was told that their striking power was so great that they would penetrate anything from the deck down. That slight experience has convinced me that the Minister and the Government have acted rightly in ensuring that we shall have a balanced navy, by adding to the present fleet one aircraft carrier by the 30th June, 1948, and a second by the 30th June, 1949. On a previous occasion in this chamber, I said that it was necessary to have a balanced navy if we were to have one with a sufficient striking force. That is most important. We hear much talk of war at different times. I have always contended that there would have been more wars in the past had it not been for the striking force of the navies of the British Commonwealth. That is why I speak as I do to-day. There is an old tradition that those who join the senior service must be British born, and it has been worthily upheld. I was pleas*ed to note that the rates of pay, and marriage and separation allowances, of the Australian naval serving men, have beer increased. That is a point which we must keep in mind ; because, when a man joins the Royal Australian Navy, he is obliged to serve on any sea, and he is on active service from the time he becomes a trainee dr a member of the crew. The Navy has always been most particular in its selection of recruits, and has been fortunate in having been able to secure men of a really good type. No matter what 'may be the political beliefs of the government of the day, full recognition must be given to the services that are rendered by men of the Navy. I do not wish to detract from the other services. I point out, however, that men who join the Army or the Air Force may obtain their training not far distant from their homes, whereas men who join the Navy are required to spend a lot 'of their time at sea, in peace time as well as in time of war; therefore, every consideration must be given to them. I understand that Hobart was somewhat remodelled in 1941, and that Australia has the most up-to-date radar equipment procurable. I commend whoever was responsible for those improvements. As I said earlier, the British Commonwealth needs a naval striking power of sufficient force to ensure that it will receive in the future the recognition it has had in the past. Any measure designed to achieve that end will have my support. 878 K2A Bendigo 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr RANKIN .- Whilst there are many good propositions in the speech of the Minister for Defence (Mr. Dedman), as well as in the proposals of the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) and the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Riordan), there are also many serious weaknesses. I have had considerable experience of the Army, and claim to know a good deal about it. I have considered very definitely for many years, and have advocated very strongly, that there should be a permanent force in Australia. For some years prior to World War II., I urged that provision should be made for at least a fully mechanized brigade. Every one must realize that that would have been of the utmost value to the people of 'Australia, if only as a training cadre - men who had had actual experience of mechanized warfare with modern weapons - when war wa9 declared. One brigade of 4,470 fighting troops is quite inadequate. In time of peace, a very large proportion of the permanent troops must be devoted to instructional work, training cadres, and similar duties. Such a force would be as a " mere drop in the ocean". The Government has decided to have a field force of only two divisions of infantry and ancillary services. That is hard to understand, in view of the fact that in pre-war days seven divisions were undergoing training of approximately the same type as that which is proposed to-day. At that time, we had a natural defence, because any potential enemy was at a -very considerable distance from us, and unable to attack us without assembling a large fleet of transports, a very considerable body of men, and all the necessary supplies. The Japanese, who constituted the danger nearest to us, had a very long flank which was open to attack by the Americans. We all admit that the provision "which we had then made was quite inadequate. I remind members of the Government that they then insisted that there was no justification for a defence force of that size, which the anti-Labour Government established despite continued resistance by powerful influences, which to-day dictate to the Government of this country. The Minister for Defence has said that because of the state of its industries Russia is not in a position to make an attack on this country. I well remember that very shortly before France and Britain were attacked by Germany the same sort of statements were made, namely, that Germany could not possibly wage war because it had not the necessary financial resources. I have heard quite prominent members of the present Government party say that there was no justification for our defence budget. The late John Curtin said in 1939 that there was no justification for the tremendous expenditure on war then contemplated, and that the Government was only trying to work up war hysteria in this country for political purposes. That was after war had been declared, but before Japan had joined in the conflict. 878 JTF 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr Burke - He said a lot more than that. 878 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr RANKIN - With very great disgrace to- himself. 878 JTF 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr Burke - Those remarks have been taken quite out of their context. 878 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr RANKIN - They have not. The present Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Pollard) said that he would not spend one penny on defence, at the very time when Germany was preparing to attack us. Field Marshal Montgomery may have told the Minister that Russia is not in a position to attack us. We do not know what information he had, but it would be fairly sketchy. All of us have heard of the " iron curtain ". Many people have paid the price of trying to get behind it in order to learn something of. what was going on. The war potential and man-power of Russia are terrific. We know that that country has guided missies. If it had the atomic bomb, it would be potentially very dangerous to any country in the world. The present rulers in Russia have the same imperialist outlook as the Czars had. They have their eyes on the wealth and man-power of India and China, and very definitely on the Bosphorus and an outlet into the Mediterranean. They are definitely a danger to us. No government is entitled to refrain from training our young manhood, and thus making i hem capable of going into the field and using modern weapons. In my time, men were armed with rifle, bayonet, sword, machine gun and field gun. A short, intensive period of training made them capable of using those weapons effectively in the field. Still we all know that, even with the training which the members of the 1st Australian Imperial Force had for several months in Egypt - and it was a very severe course - when they landed at Gallipoli they were amateurs when opposed to the regular Turkish army, which was composed of professionals, and paid the price for that lack of training in good Australian blood. We are not doing sufficient in regard to our defences. That applies not only to the Army, but also to the Navy and the Air Force. Every young man in this country should be prepared to defend it. I do not say that every one, when he has reached the age of eighteen years, should be called up and be expected to do six or twelve months training, but all should be examined and classified in "A" class or "B" class. The Australian Government, in collaboration with the British Government, the governments of the other Dominions, and the Government of the United States of America, should decide what number of men should be trained. The minimum strength of the Army should be at least 100,000 men, and the Air Force and Navy should he of proportionate strength. All recruits for the Army should be selected by ballot, irrespective of their position in the community. If they were given a period of six months' training it would not affect their civilian occupations to any marked degree, nor would it upset our national economy. No one can say when we may go to war, or with whom we may be at war. Of course, there are certain nations which we can disregard. It is unthinkable that we should ever fight with any of the English-speaking peoples. They will all be forced to work together and fight together, because that is their only hope of survival. Field Marshal Montgomery has been quoted as saying that there is no danger of war in the future because the nations are exhausted from the recent war. I point out that the late General White, who was perhaps one of the best staff officers Australia has produced, said after Hitler's drive to Dunkirk that it would be impossible for him to make a similar drive for three or four months at the earliest ; yet ten days later, his armies rushed up the Seine valley to the Swiss border, and cut off a great French army in the Ardennes. What was impossible in the past is not necessarily impossible to-day. Previously, Australia always had time to assemble men, and give them at least some military training. Now, however, we know that we could be attacked from the air without warning by forces from Japan, or Russia, or China, or India. We know from the experience of the Japanese at Hiroshima that an attack with atomic bombs could wipe out our war potential in a night; Our great industries at Newcastle, Port Kembla and Maribyrnong could be flattened in a few hours, and we should then be reduced to waging guerrilla warfare. . Staggering damage could be inflicted on our great cities. Our only hope lies in the possession of modern weapons, with men trained in their use. We should have enough trained men for our Army, our Navy, our Air Force, for the manning of our coastal defences, and the defences around our great cities. The next time, the country which is about to attack us will give no warning of its intention. The first that we shall know is when the bombs are raining down on our great industrial centres and our capital cities. I have a great admiration for FieldMarshal Montgomery, who is a remarkable man and a great soldier, but I do not agree with him that there is no immediate danger of war. There were times during recent discussions over Trieste, Greece and the Bosphorus by delegates to the United Nations when it would seem that we were playing with a lighted candle around a barrel of gunpowder. Australia must have adequate defence forces, irrespective of the cost. We know that if a man's life is threatened by some malignant disease, and a surgeon convinces him that he has a chance of recovery if he undergoes an operation, he will pay his last penny to have the operation performed. It is the same with nations. They must defend themselves, no matter how hard it affects their finances, or how many men are required. Those nations which make adequate preparations for defence are not likely to be attacked. It is not the strong welldefended though peace-loving nations that are attacked, but the weak nations with great industries, great potentialities, great aerodromes lying along world aviation routes, and great harbours. I am glad that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) has decided to abolish the stupid test applied to military recruits by psychiatrists. I know of young men from the country who wished to -join the forces for service in Japan, but who were rejected by the psychiatrists. I also saw the foolish questions which were asked them, and upon which their rejection was based. Those young men had the ordinary education, but perhaps had not had educational tuition for the last eight or ten years. The questions were of the kind that might be answered by some long-haired professor with a good memory, but I am sure that many senior army officers could not have answered them; yet .these young men, who are probably the best military material in the world, farm labourers or men from their own farms, were rejected because they did not answer the questions to the satisfaction of the psychiatrists. After looking at the questions, I was convinced that the wrong people were being examined, and I suggest to the Minister for the Army that he should get three or four competent soldiers to have a look at the psychiatrists. If the Government is determined not to introduce compulsory training, I, as an old militiaman, advise it very strongly to do what the Germans did when, under the Versailles treaty, they were not allowed to have a large standing army. They concentrated on the training of officers and non-commissioned officers, and it was due to this that, in so short a time, they were able to build up what at that time was possibly .the greatest fighting force in the world. 1 am convinced that very little useful purpose is served by training men for ten or twelve days in camps, and then sending them home where they get another fifteen days' training. In the Navy and in the Air Force, also, it is necessary to have a welltrained nucleus around which an effective force can be built in time of war. In my opinion, the Government is not doing enough for the defence of Australia. What it proposes to do is fairly sound in most directions. For instance, 3 thoroughly agree with the proposal to establish a permanent military force. The time has come when we should explode the old myth that only regular soldiers should serve on the staff and on military boards. . I believe that we should have on such authorities representatives of the citizen army itself. The others are only the school teachers of the Army. We have such men as Generals Morshead, Herring, and Savige, whose services might be called upon, and if younger men are wanted, there are officers like Brigadiers Hammer and Anderson, who have years of soldiering ahead of them. They have come from the Citizen Forces, some of them starting as privates and working their way up. They know men, and the conditions under which men have to serve and should be used to represent their interests in the militia forces. 880 JTF Perth 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr BURKE .- The honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) quoted out of its proper context a statement of the late Mr. John Curtin, and thus conveyed a wrong impression. The honorable member said that Mr. Curtin had tried to reduce expenditure on defence after the war had begun. I believe he did move that the Estimates be reduced by £1, but that was done to call attention to a need which he explained. 881 L0X 0 0 LEMMON, Nelson Mr Lemmon - He suggested a complete defence plan. 881 JTF 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr BURKE - That is so. During the election campaign in 1937 the late Mr. John Curtin propounded a plan for the military, naval and air defence of this country that was prophetical in its character. No others at that time foresaw as clearly as he did the situation that was shortly to arise. Speaking on the budget of 1940-41 Mr. Curtin, then leader of the Opposition, said - The Opposition does not seek to reduce by a single shilling the provision which the Government, in its wisdom, regards as necessary in order that the programme in relation to the conduct of the war may be adequately carried out in the financial year that we are considering. [n his speech on the budget of 1941-42, when he moved " That the first item be reduced by £1 " - the normal method by which disagreement with the Government's budget proposals is expressed - Mr. Curtin said - What we have to consider in this budget is, in effect, the problem of ways and means of war. I put it in that way because I think it is desirable that the whole world - and more particularly our enemies - should know that whatever may take place in this Parliament this week will not in any way affect the complete unity of the Australian people, or the determination of this Parliament as a united body to prosecute the war to a successful conclusion. We are here concerned with how we can best and most fairly organize the nation so as to secure the greatest possible degree of efficiency in the prosecution of the war and in that way more early obtain victory. And then, with that deep sincerity which so marked his character, he went on to say- The fighting men have the first claim upon anything the country can do. The families of the fighting men have the first right to any special privileges that the country is capable of conferring in time of war. He then dealt in detail with what he regarded as the lack of proper organization and proper provision in the Government's plans for the prosecution of the war, and with the fair treatment of all the elements of the community that would be engaged in it. I repeat his words in order to controvert the statements made by the honorable member for Bendigo. 881 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - -The honorable member has not controverted my statements. He accused me of quoting out of their context certain statements made by Mr. Curtin. 881 JTF 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr BURKE - If the honorable member can controvert these two statements made by Mr. Curtin after we had entered the war, I invite him to do so. All honorable members share in the hope that war will not occur again, but all are agreed that we must be prepared for such an eventuality. If Avar again ravages the world it is certain to be of such a character that civilization will perish. For that reason we are all united in an attempt to bring about more amicable relations between the nations of the world. "While the Government pursues that policy, despite hostile criticism of its -methods by honorable members opposite from time to time, it has made a real contribution towards the defence of this country. The statements made during this debate have generally been temperate and constructive. The Government is planning soundly and wisely so that Australia may be in a position to defend itself should efforts to prevent wars he not successful. 881 L0G Flinders 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN .- I propose to cover the activities of four Ministers, but not to include those of the Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford), so the honorable gentleman need not be worried. 881 KCM 0 0 DRAKEFORD, Arthur Mr Drakeford - I am not worried. 881 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - First, I wish to direct my remarks to the Department of the Army. I was very much disturbed by some of the words of the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers). The honorable gentleman seems .to he quite oblivious of the realities of the present world situation. He left an impression on me, and I think on the committee, too, that the possibilities of war in the near future were remote indeed. I am inclined to agree with him up to a point, but we must never lose sight of the fact that, while the flames of the world war have died down, the embers of another conflagration are still smouldering under the ashes. In the Far East and in Asia, which is dominated by Soviet Russia, the possibilities of war are by no means remote. The Minister went on to say - and this is where I disagree with him - that if war again broke out in this atomic age, an army would not be of much use. His thoughts in that respect differ, not only from my own, but also from those of a large body of constructive military thought in the world to-day, To-day our army scarcely exists. The Government's defence plan provides for a Navy consisting of 10,450 men, a per:manent Army of 19,000, and an Air Force of 12,000, or a total permanent force of approximately 41,000. In addition, we are to have citizen forces numbering 50,000, the value of which - and I believe the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) will agree with me - will be nil. Not only is the whole world unstable, not only is there great uncertainty as to what future developments may arise, but there is also present another disturbing factor, namely, the weakening of the strength of Great Britain. In the last fortnight or so the United Kingdom forces have been reduced from approximately 1,000,000 to fewer than 750,000 men. It has been agreed here, and elsewhere, that Australian should accept a greater share of responsibility for the defence of the Empire. How can we do so with a total force for the three arms of only approximately 41,000 men? On a population basis, we should have a permanent force of approximately 125,000 if we are to play a proportionate part, with Great Britain in the defence of the Empire. Our plans for the defence of this country, and for our share in the defence of the Empire, are absolutely inadequate. We must improve them. I turn now to a consideration of the Navy, particularly of the proposed carrier force. We understand that, shortly, we are to have two carriers, one of which is nearing completion and the other likely to be completed at some later date. We are in a very favorable position in that we are starting 'from scratch. When this force is built up, and the necessary equipment obtained and personnel trained, we shall have a carrier force second to none in the world, one able to play an important, part in the defence of the Empire in the Pacific. That is appreciated in the United Kingdom, and I am informed that we have been given priority by the United Kingdom Government in regard to the supply of the carriers and of the aircraft included in their complement. The aircraft are, I understand, to be of the latest type and, if everything goes according to plan, we should have a first-class naval air force arm. If the naval air arm is to be successful, however, it must be free from interference by the other services. The Minister for the Navy (Mr. Riordan) and his advisers will be responsible for the recruitment of its personnel, but the Minister for Defence (Mr. Dedman) should ensure that it is not subjected to interference by other service departments, not made a sort of poor relation of the Royal Australian Air Force. It must be trained and administered as a separate service. The Minister was rather optimistic when he said that it may be possible to secure aircraft of the jet-propelled type for the naval air arm. I understand that, such aircraft will not be produced for attachment to the Navy for some considerable time. To man the naval aircraft we shall require, I believe, 80 officer pilots. Inspectors have already begun the examination of applicants. I understand that more than 700 applications have been received, but that only 25 applicants have been provisionally accepted. Apparently the screening of applicants has been very careful in order to ensure that we get, only the best men, and it is difficult to find them. 882 KZ9 0 0 RIORDAN, William Mr Riordan - I do not know where the honorable gentleman got his information. Interviews commenced only this month. 882 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - I am informed that the number of persons offering their services is fairly great, but that the number accepted is extremely small. 882 KZ9 0 0 RIORDAN, William Mr Riordan - The interviews arn still continuing. 882 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - It may be difficult to secure the requisite number of suitable men in Australia. If we' are unable to do so, I suggest that the Minister should endeavour to secure the services of ex-Royal Navy pilots now in the United Kingdom who had participated in the defence of this country during the war. That would be one means of bringing to this country immigrants of a highly desirable type. If difficulty exists in securing recruits for the Army, a similar practice might be adopted. We require immigrants in large numbers, and by bringing British ex-servicemen here to join our fighting services we would solve at least the problem of their accommodation and employment in the first few years of their residence in this country. We should follow the policy adopted in Great Britain in connexion with the inspectorate branches of the services. In Great Britain, until a few years ago, each of the services had its own inspectorate branch; but, as the result of war experience, it was found to he more economical, both as regards numbers of personnel and quality of work, to divorce the inspectorate branches from the services and to constitute a separate inspectorate service to cover the requirements of the three services. That suggestion might well he considered in the re-organization, and, I hope, the expansion of our services. Some time ago, when the Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Barnard) informed the House of the Government's decision to increase by 7s. 6d. a week the pensions of war widows with one child or two children he said that that was the only concession that the Government was prepared to make to war widows. If the Government is prepared to increase the pension payable to those war widows why not extend the concession to widows with, three, four or five children, of whom there aTe many. In any event, members of the Parliament and the people generally believe that the pension is inadequate. I have received many letters from various people and organizations pointing out how extraordinarily inadequate is the pension of these unfortunate war widows. Part of a letter I received yesterday from the Mornington Mothers Club contains the following paragraph : - Certainly there has recently been a small increase, but we, as a representative body of mothers in this town, consider that while it is a step in the right direction, it still is far below the support that should be given these women to enable them to keep their homes and families at a decent standard of living. We can only sincerely endorse Mrs. Vasey's views and efforts on behalf of the war widows, and trust as a club that this protest may add to her appeal in some way, however small. All the other letters are in the same strain; all stress the urgent need for an increase of the pension. I have never been able to understand the attitude of the Government in this matter. A woman reconstruction trainee with two dependants receives £5 10s. a week - that is regarded as insufficient - whereas, even with the increase recently granted, a war widow with two children receives only £5 a week. Then, why should war widows receive less than a permanently disabled ex-serviceman. After all, he is still alive, even though permanently disabled, but the war widows have lost their husbands. Their pensions are entirely out of proportion to the cost of living. War widows ' and their children are experiencing great hardships, as every one knows who has studied their conditions. The former husband of a widow with one child living in my electorate earned £650 a year in civilian life before he joined the forces; later he was killed in the Middle East. The couple were buying a house. With the increase of 7s. 6d. a week, her pension is now £4 weekly, out of which she has to pay 27s. 6d. for rent, 3s. for light, 3s. for gas, 6s. for meat, 6s.. for milk, 2s. for bread, £1 for groceries, and 4s. 6d. for medicine. 883 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr Barnard - Did the honorable member say " medicine " ? 883 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - Yes, her doctor has ordered her to take emulsion, which, apparently, is not on the pharmaceutical list. That leaves her with 13s. for clothes, shoes, fares, household expenses, wood, ice, stamps and newspapers, and all the other incidentals required in a home. She is ill, but the only thing she can do is disobey the doctor's orders and go to work to make up the deficiency. There are hundreds like her. The result is that their health is deteriorating from day to day. Cases of neurosis among war widows are multiplying, and I believe that many have contracted tuberculosis. One reason why the Government is disinclined to be more generous is that if it were, the war widows' pensions would be out of line with pensions paid to ordinary widows. The Government's attitude is, " Why make a difference 'between war widows and civilian widows ? " But their circumstances are absolutely different. 883 JNX 0 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr Barnard - We make a substantial difference between the two. 884 L0G 0 0 RYAN, Rupert Mr RYAN - Substantial, but not sufficiently substantial. The war widows' husbands died for their country, and it is the country's duty to ensure that they shall not suffer financially in consequence of their husbands' deaths. The guiding principle must be that they and their dependants shall be free from want. Had their husbands returned, no doubt the greater majority would have been free from want. There are 12,000 war widows in all, and hundreds of them are suffering seriously as the result of the penurious pensions paid to them by the Government. I ask the Minister for Repatriation to ensure that they shall be properly treated. I now refer to the way in which repatriation hospitals are conducted. I refer particularly to what was the Heidelberg Military Hospital. It was controlled most efficiently as a military hospital. The Repatriation Commission then assumed control. I understand that, according to normal standards, it is still conducted efficiently, but, whereas when the Army was in control there was no timetable and a 24-hour service was operated, now the hospital is conducted on a civilian timetable, and nurses, doctors and orderlies are rostered for duty. Under the rules laid down by the repatriation authorities, all emphasis is laid on the machine instead of the patient, on whom it should be laid. As the result the patients suffer. I give two examples of how the system operates. A couple of week-ends ago, a patient, after examination by a doctor, was ordered to have a blood transfusion, but when the doctor returned to the hospital on the Monday rooming, he found that the patient had not been given the transfusion. When he asked why, he was told that all the staff had. gone off duty and that no one had been there to do the job. In other words, the machinery turned according to schedule, but nothing was done for the patient. In the other instance, the patient was admitted for diagnosis. He spent three months in the hospital without being diagnosed. Why? Because the details of his caste got into the department's files and travelled the whole course without appropriate action being taken. Those are examples of what takes place when things are done according to red tape methods. I impress upon the Government that at repatriation hospitals, and all government hospitals, the Government may establish under its medical and health scheme, first consideration must be given to the patient and that red-tape rules must not be laid down for controlling the establishments. I know that the Minister for Repatriation will investigate the complaints I have made and I hope that, as the result, we shall have something better than we have had. 884 KGX Parkes 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN .- Last night the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) said that I supported the Communists on every available opportunity. I am sure that he made that remark in the heat of debate. The statement I made that brought forth that remark related to the book Who are the Beds? I pointed out - probably the honorable gentleman did not hear me under his own thunder - that the writer was traversing the " reds " in a historical sense. I do not think that warranted the accusation that I support the Communists. It was an unfair statement. I need not labour the point, bcause the charge is so utterly false. The honorable member for New England aptly comes from a place named Wingen. He is always crying. As a red rag to a bull- 884 JLL 0 0 ABBOTT, Joseph Mr Abbott - I always charge red when I 9ee it, and that is why I charged the honorable member. 884 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN - With bovine simplicity, mistaking the target. 884 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - Tell us about the cable the honorable member sent to President Truman. 884 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN - A cable that I sent to President Truman ? I would not presume to send a cable to President Truman. In his customary well-mannered speech, the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) dealt first with the remilitarization of Australia, and secondly, with war widows. What makes war widows but war? That there are war widows is proof of the stupidity of militarism. No man who has served in the forces can be without feelings of pacificism. It must be frightening to everyone that, having just concluded one war, we should be preparing against another one. Even Conceding that the United Nations may not be the instrument for peace that we hoped that it would be, is it not worth while giving it a chance for a year or two. Wars are only the creation of the minds of men. 885 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - No one suggests otherwise. 885 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN - I do not suggest that we shall not be attacked and that we do not need to be prepared^ but the pity is that before we have repaired the spiritual and material damage of the last war, we are faced with the need to organize ourselves, even to the debatable point of conscription, lest there should be another war. As regards pensions for war widows, no payment can compensate a woman for the loss of her husband. The pensions now payable to war widows are better than they were after World War I., but I doubt whether any war widow could be given the measure of prosperity by means of a pension that she enjoyed before a war. Money is not the measure. On the matter of pensions generally, no matter what Minister has administered the Repatriation Department, it has always been " Heartbreak House ". Everybody has tried to do these things. The act is alleged, by parliamentary draftsmen, and those who understand the drafting of bills, to be an almost perfect measure, but it has worked most imperfectly under most Ministers. The present Minister for Repatriation has approached the subject with a broad mind, and a desire to do things. Although he has made some useful improvements, the act is still far from perfect in its effect. It will continue so to be, because, after a war, no one is prepared to pay the price of the conflict. Whether or not people are patriotically inclined, they must fact the proposition that once the war is ended, and the threat removed, it is a niggardly payment indeed which is made to the dependants of those who have paid the supreme sacrifice, or have been maimed or wounded. However, that has been the aftermath of all wars. To blame a government for these conditions, and say that the allocation is not sufficient or that we should set one section of service against another, is entirely wrong. The only satisfactory assessment must be made on the poignancy of the cases concerned, and, in the first priority, I certainly place the war widows. Having done that, legitimate claims are to be considered from other sections of the fighting forces, such as the partially disabled and the blinded men, the neurosis cases, the children of members of the forces who were killed in action, and prisoners of war, on whose behalf the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Turnbull) has made such a valiant fight. We require many millions of pounds in order to enable us to make a level payment for the services rendered, but we never seem to be able to do it. The reason is that there is, on the other hand, the problem of reconstruction. If we decide that what has gone is gone, and that seems to me to be the criminal decision on war, we should decide to do something for the survivors and allocate £80,000,000 for reconstruction and rehabilitation purposes. Immediately that is done, other ex-servicemen and their dependants appeal to the Repatriation Department and ex-servicemen's organizations for justice. Every man has his own case, and feels that there is great merit in it. He appears before the War Pensions Entitlement Appeal Tribunal, and finally submits his case to the Minister for Repatriation. In the main, these matters are worked out by a plan - a merciless plan - which depends upon the money available. These matters are fully judged, not on humanitarian grounds, but by £ s. d. No matter how strongly we fight for these cases, and make appeals in the House on their behalf, the conditioning factor is the amount of money in the Treasury for ex-servicemen and their dependants, for rehabilitation and re-construction, and for the services of the country. In all wars, from the Crimean War to World War IT., service men and women have " missed out ". Wordy expressions of wisdom in this House do not contribute ultimately to the solution of this problem. The question to be answered is: What, sacrifices have been made, and how are they to be rewarded ? Again, this depends upon the amount of money available. Every government, regardless of its political views, does attempt, by maintaining the closest possible contact with ex-servicemen's organizations and repatriation commissions in the States, which know everything that there is to know about pensions and welfare payments, to do its best on behalf of ex-servicemen. If any glaring anomalies arise, they are adjusted, because every one has a fair outlook towards ex-servicemen and their problems. A campaign for an increase of war widows' pensions is now blowing ,up from Victoria and elsewhere. This campaign has pressure, justification and sincerity to support it. To what degree it will be possible to meet this demand with the money available, I do not know. But what happens when we have met, as adequately as we can, these claims for increased pensions? The pot fills up again and again with other requests from ex-servicemen and their organizations, until ultimately we come back to the recognition of the utter futility of paying adequately for the sacrifices of war. War does not pay. any dividends in blood, tears, sacrifice or rewards to the survivors. It is with great diffidence that I say that some honorable members opposite indulge in just a little too much talk of war, and preparations for war. I may be wrong. In my own mind, I was wrong on another occasion regarding the outbreak of waT. I thought that World War II. might have been prevented. I believe that there will not be a third world war. Now, however, we may adopt one of two courses. If we decide that Australia should equip and maintain forces and make preparations to defend itself, and conduct atomic research and investigation into other deadly and even more modern appurtenances of war, we must immediately cut into our financial cake, and allocate larger sums of money for defence. Whether good or bad, the decision would have some effect on the Government's policy of full employment. If we propose to provide, as Hitler did, for full employment for the people by making war a great public work, we shall be on the way to another world war. If we resist this course by putting all our eggs into one basket, and depend on our powerful allies overseas, because of their armed strength, money and proximity to our enemy, and on the processes of the United Nations, tortuous and slow as they are, we might be in imminent danger of having "picked the wrong horse" again. The position might well cause us to despair, believing that man might ultimately remove himself from the scene of conflict on the earth which he inhabits. I do not know what the solution is, but, undoubtedly, we should give the subject of peace a little longer consideration, and should hoi give way to despair. We should not conclude immediately that war is inevitable, because that is the short path to another, war. It is distressing, and I cannot solve the problem. Only the people of the world can do that. However, I do desire to place on record my own opinion regarding this matter. We shall not be wise to rattle the sabre so much, because, to be candid, we have no sabre to rattle. Australia is a small nation, with a population of 7,000,000 persons. The inference to be drawn from the speech of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) was that the British people who come here will make a fine army, but in my opinion, that would be too great an impost to place upon these immigrants. Mo9t of them served in the British Army for six years, and it is time that they had some furlough. If they do come here, we do not want to regard them as potential cannon fodder. Rather than that, we should leave them in Great Britain to build up industries there. Many people believe that for Australia an increased population means safety. What a pitiful kind of safety it would be, if we had even an additional 1,000,000 people, in view of our close geographical proximity to the teeming millions of the East. In point of numbers, our position is intolerable. The influence of the atom bomb on the size of ground forces in future has been studied by military experts who know some of the difficulties and some of the prospects. I still contend, and this opinion is borne out by the views of most military writers, that we shall still require soldiers, after atom warfare, for cleaning up and mopping up operations. Therefore, the personal unit in war will not he dissolved. If numbers still count in the defence of Australia against invasion, we are in a pitiful position. I shall now summarize my views. I believe that we should continue to adhere to the United Nations, and help to strengthen it by a courageous approach to the battle for peace. We should also prepare, but slowly and with reluctance, for any other eventuality; but for the lime being, we should carefully consider how much expenditure we can safely incur on preparations for defence. This expenditure is like a snowball. Once we have one unit, we must proceed to establish others. A nation becomes poor in maintaining its defences against a possible attack by an enemy. Here, I adim.it that there are two points of view on this subject, but I believe that, for the time being, we can expend a limited amount of money and a great amount of goodwill ou the strengthening of the peace structure. If we fail again, there will be very little left to live for. We still have a vast undischarged debt to ex-service men and women. We must face it frankly. 887 JLZ 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr Anthony - That, is consistent with the policy which the Labour party advocated prior to World War II. 887 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr HAYLEN - The point which I desire to make is that we still have not been able to discharge, nor has any government been able to discharge adequately, its obligations to ex-servicemen and the dependants of deceased servicemen. We still have tragic reminders of World War I. Many of the ex-servicemen who took part in that conflict are now in the old-age groups. Their appeals to members of Parliament and others who can help them obtain a pension or an additional pension are pathetic. They try to convince the Repatriation Department that their injuries were war-induced or war-caused. They have still to be cared for. Fortunately, many of them have been able to rehabilitate themselves, but the progress has been much slower than we originally expected. In addition to that, we have the growing requirements of men who fought in World War IT., and who, by reason of their youth, have not yet made their full demands on us. As time passes, we shall have to face a towering expenditure. As to what we should do first, I return to the strong demand for an increase of war widows' pensions. The bread-winner was whipped away almost in an instant, but the wife and children remain, and there is in their minds a blankness which cannot be compensated by any payment. Their lives must be reassembled under conditions which were never planned. In those circumstances, they call for our sympathy, and for as much money as we can give to them, as evidence of our earnest desire to do the right thing by the women who suffered from the death of their husbands in the services. After that, we must be prepared to assist all servicemen according to their merits and the urgency of their needs. 887 KGC Swan 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON .- 1 thought for a few minutes that the honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Haylen) was speaking in support of the banking legislation. During his long discourse about money, he stated that the Opposition wanted the Government to set one section of ex-service men and women against another- 887 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr Haylen - I did not say that. 887 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - That is just what the Government is doing. I understand that the Department of Post-war Reconstruction has issued to the various prescribed authorities dealing with reestablishment agricultural loans, an instruction that, from any living allowances that these ex-servicemen are eligible to receive, shall be deducted income from all sources. Any ex-serviceman who is employed by the Australian Government, a State government or private enterprise, and who is receiving a war pension, does nol have the equivalent of that pension deducted from his salary or wages. But the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) is asking that the war pension be deducted from the living allowances of the men who settle on the land and who have been granted a re-establishment allowance under the £1,000 scheme. The honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke), when replying to some remarks by the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin), regarding the late Mr. John Curtin, said that the former Prime Minister - and I believe it is true - stated that nothing was too good for the ex-servicemen and that the Government and people of Australia should strive to help them and their dependants as much as possible. That view has been expressed repeatedly in this chamber. Nevertheless, an amount equivalent to the war pension is still being deducted from the living allowance of an ex-serviceman who settles on the land. Such an outcry was raised against this action that recently the department saw fit to cease deducting the pension which was payable to the wife or children, but it continued to deduct from the ex-serviceman's living allowance an amount equivalent to the soldier's war pension. I also believe that, under that instruction, the Government would stoop so low as to deduct any decoration allowance which a settler might be receiving as the result of his war service. Income from all sources must be deducted. It applies also to war pensions. The Minister should inquire into this matter immediately and issue an instruction that the practice is to be discontinued at once. This is a very sore point with ex-service men and women and their organizations. These men are endeavouring to establish themselves on the land with the help of an inadequate allowance of £1,000, which leaves them very little to spare. Any deduction at all from their living allowance is therefore a great hardship. It is disgraceful, in my opinion, that such deductions should be made. I wish also to request that the amount of £1,000 should be increased. This request has been submitted by ex-servicemen's organizations to the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction because the men know, from bitter experience, that £1,000 is inadequate. Their requests, however, have had only the barest recognition from the Minister. The honorable gentleman will recall, T believe, that this request was one of the 40 made to him by the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen's Imperial League of Australia almost twelve months ago. When regard is had to the rising cost of implements required on farms and of all necessaries of life in rural areas it must surely be appreciated that £1,000 is inadequate for the purpose. There is a leg rope even on that amount, because an advance of the full amount of £1,000 depends upon valuations by the prescribed authority, which will advance only up to 90 per cent, of its valuations. Unfortunately its valuations are not always satisfactory to the persons concerned. I had a case brought to my notice which indicated that the valuation on which the prescribed authority based its grant was made twelve months before the ex-soldier applied for an advance. This matter also should be investigated immediately and the difficulties under which the men are labouring should be removed. The amount of the advance should be increased to £2,500. The matter to which I shall now refer involves the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) who, I am glad to see, is still in the chamber. We have had correspondence on the subject, but unfortunately the results have not been satisfactory. I refer to an advance of tickels made to prisoners of war on their release from incarceration in Siam. When the men were released they, of course, had no pay books and very little else. They were immediately issued with an interim pay book and a small amount was put to their credit in tickels. Later they received some more money which was practically forced upon them, and not entered in their pay books. In this case an amount of £8 15s. was made available and it was understood that the money was provided from a fund raised in Australia to assist prisoners of war on their release from incarceration by the Japanese. Six months after their discharge these men were written to and asked to refund the money to the District Finance Officer. In some cases the men refunded the money, believing everything to be in order. In other cases the men told the authorities to " go and jump in the lake ". In some cases, however, where men had amounts to their credit in the Commonwealth Savings Bank they were directed by registered letter to return their savings bank passbooks and the amount they had received under this heading was deducted from their accounts. I was fortunate enough to contact in Perth the Commonwealth Savings Bank official who actually made deductions' from the savings bank passbooks of one of these men. The men who had savings bank accounts were directed to return their passbooks but the amounts were not treated a9 being associated with the tickel transaction, but were regarded as overpayments in deferred pay. 888 JLZ 0 0 ANTHONY, Hubert Mr Anthony - Did the Department, of the Army collaborate with the Commonwealth Savings Bank in this matter? 889 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - I understand that, under an ancient act, such deductions may be made provided that the Department of the Army can establish certain facts, but that is not my point. I put it to honorable members that we have one category of men who paid the money back without a quibble, another category who said that they would not pay it back in any circumstances, and another who, having savings bank accounts, were obliged to return their passbooks and to submit to the money being forcibly taken from them. When these transactions began to smell to high heaven the department ceased the practice. However, the only way in which this matter can be dealt with satisfactorily is for the Department of the Army or the Treasury, I care not which, to refund the money to those who paid it back voluntarily and to those which were obliged to pay it back through the Commonwealth Savings Bank. The matter cannot be allowed to stay where it is. The practice of deducting the money from savings bank accounts ended on the 2nd August, 1946. Any man who was discharged after that date was not obliged to refund the money. I sincerely trust that action will be taken without delay to remedy this complaint. I now refer to the war gratuity. Under section 17 (1.) of the War Gratuity Act provision is made that the war gratuity shall be paid to certain individuals in the event of the soldier who was entitled to it having been killed in action. The view of ex-servicemen's associations is that, irrespective of whether the soldier entitled to the gratuity was killed in action or not, (he money should be paid to his estate. The men earned the money and it should go to their estate without any question. I do not think that it should be paid only io specified individuals. Brothers and sisters of servicemen who were killed in action have often been in great difficulty over this matter. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Davidson) told me the other day of the sister of a serviceman killed in action who was almost starving, but still could not obtain any benefit from the gratuity that her deceased brother's estate was entitled to. This should be altered. I understand that the Prime Minister is considering referring to the committee of ex-servicemen certain ques tions in relation to the war gratuity. This should certainly be one of them. 889 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr Haylen - There should be a loosening of the hardship section too. 889 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - I agree with the honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Haylen), and I intended to come to that point. Many returned men are endeavouring to establish themselves on properties for the purpose of poultry raising, orcharding and so forth, and they have invested practically every penny of their own money, choosing not to wait until funds became available for the purpose from government sources. Such men should- be allowed to draw upon their gratuity in order to relieve their urgent need of finance. There may not be very many individuals in this class, but I know of eight in my own electorate. These men are seeking to increase food production, not only to help people in this country, but also, to some degree, to help starving people overseas. I know of one individual who desired to obtain money to purchase a pumping outfit in order to establish a private irrigation scheme. The Prime Minister was written to on the subject, but he said that nothing could be done in respect of the war gratuity, and advised the individual to write to the Repatriation Department. 889 KEP 0 0 FALKINDER, Charles Mr Falkinder - That man would not be entitled to assistance from that source. 889 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - That is so, and the Department of Post-war Reconstruction would not make money available unless the applicant had been engaged, before his war service, in the industry in which he desired to expend the money. I believe that that instruction is set down in Directive No. 8 to Sec. 91, sub-paragraph 3. The effect is that even if a man learned a good deal about some branch of agriculture during his war service, he could not obtain any assistance from the Department of Post-war Reconstruction, for assistance from that source was limited to avenues of agriculture in which the man had been engaged prior to his war service. That is a most unsatisfactory situation. A man cannot obtain .any help to establish himself in the new industry which he has chosen, although this is supposed to be a generous Government. This situation should be investigated without delay. The pinpricks to which ex-service men and women are being subjected in this regard are causing a great deal of dissatisfaction, mid trouble will continue until the complaints have been remedied. I come now to the subject of flood relief for certain individuals in "Western Australia. In Western Australia the two seasons immediately following the conclusion of hostilities were the wettest in the history of the State. Considerable areas of country were flooded with the result that crops of barley, wheat and oats, were ruined. Unfortunately the individuals who suffered in this way were misled by the then Minister for Agriculture in Western Australia, for they believed that he had made an application for flood relief from the Australian Government, whereas in fact he had not done so. This year these same individuals are faced with a drought. May, June and July were very wet months, but August turned out to be exceptionally dry in Western Australia. In wet years they were unable to do the correct amount of fallowing to enable them to have some insurance against any lean spring, and this year were faced with a particularly dry August, with some very heavy frosts. I understand that recently a notification was sent to the Government of Western Australia that, as the flooding had not been severe and widespread, or national in character, the Commonwealth, unfortunately, could not assist on the same basis as New South Wales was assisted last year. Honorable members will recall that I then spoke very forcefully in favour of paying £750,000 to the drought-stricken farmers of New South Wales. I did so because I had had the experience of living through a drought as well as a flood. I earnestly request the Government to reconsider the application of the Government of Western Australia, with a view to giving to those farmers who are situated in both the north and the south, including the electorate of the Minister for Works and Housing (Mr. Lemmon), some measure of assistance to compensate them for very serious flood years, which unfortunately were followed this year by drought conditions. Before concluding, I want to deal' with defence. I have not heard any honorable member, while discussing' defence, make mention of the Indian Ocean, which laps the coast of Western Australia. 890 KRI 0 0 SHEEHY, Thomas Mr Sheehy - I advocated a strong British Navy, a portion of which would be devoted to the defence of the Indian Ocean. 890 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr HAMILTON - I thank the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Sheehy) for his sincerity and earnestness in that regard. What we must bear in mind is that the trade route across the Indian Ocean is the life-line between Australia and Great Britain and Europe. It is the line which carries most of our communications, as well as most of our cargo and passenger traffic. If the people who live in countries bordering that ocean have no security, their plight will be serious should war break out. In Palestine the position is, to say the least, ticklish indeed. If honorable members will take their minds back to the position that existed after World War I., they will recall that there was then some strife in that part of the world, organized by the armaments king Zaharoff. There were similar happenings immediately after the cessation of hostilities recently. One of the root causes of the present trouble, as was the case after World War I., is the desire to control the oilfields in that area. The whole of the territory from the Gulf of Persia almost to the Caspian Sea is " floating on a sea of oil ". Trouble has developed also in India. I recall very vividly people warning the British Government that if Britain withdrew from India one of the greatest bloodbaths in history would ensue. I have conversed with high military officials from India who have told me the same thing. That has now come to pass, and we do not know what will be the outcome. We also know that there is trouble immediately north of Australia, in Indonesia, and cannot say what will be the outcome of it. Not many years ago, when there were internal troubles in certain countries, an outsider' would take complete control with a view to restoring peace. Not very long ago we read of the uproar that was caused when Mr. Winston Churchill, at Milton in the United States of America, mentioned something about the " iron curtain ". What he then forecast has since happened. As the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) remarked this afternoon, Russia is following the Czarist doctrine in relation to territorial expansion. It is well within the realm of possibility that at any moment Russia will extend its operations so as to embrace Palestine, Transjordan, Iran, Iraq and India. We must not lose sight of the fact that it could advance through China to Indonesia. At Yampi Sound, in Western Australia, there is at sight 100,000,000 tons of better than 90 per cent, iron ore. If the Russians were to move down to Indonesia a " hop, step and jump " would carry them to those iron ore deposits. Some persons will claim that nothing can be done with the ore because of the absence of power, which could not be generated because the coal supplies are not close enough. The nearest coal we know of is at Collie. But I direct the attention of honorable members to this statement, which appeared in the Daily News, Perth, on the 17th March last - Moscow radio reports that tests in using the force of the sea to produce electric power have been successful at Leningrad. The apparatus consists of a generator in a drum anchored at sea. The drum, when the tide reaches a certain level, begins to rotate, setting a generator in motion. The radio claims that the invention can produce up to 1,100 kilowatts. At the spot to which I am referring, the tide rises and falls, at the very least, 27 feet. Honorable members can appreciate the inrush and outrush at the flow and ebb of that tide, and what electricity might be generated from it. By mean9 of the production of electricity, that 100,000,000 tons of ore at sight could be developed into very substantial armaments, because there are available all the other minerals that are required for the process of smelting. Geographically and climatically, Western Australia is suitably conditioned for some system of defence. I remind honorable members that the coastline of that State is longer than the eastern seaboard. The people who live in the State are exclusively of the British race with the exception of the immigrants who have arrived in it since the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Calwell) has used Fremantle as a terminal port. The disadvantages to Western Australia are its size, its small population, and its industrial backwardness. These make it a very dangerously exposed portion of the continent. Anything that can be done in defence of this country in that State or in the Indian Ocean would materially assist Empire defence, because protection would be afforded to the whole of the Indian Ocean, as well as to South Africa, India, the Suez Canal zone and all the other adjacent territories in which Britain has interests. Unfortunately, there are no deep-sea harbours on the coast of Western Australia. But there is no reason why they cannot be provided. At the moment, investigations are proceeding in the northern part of the State, with a view to establishing a deep-sea port. Albany has the greatest potential; as a naval seaport, it is equal to any other port in Australia. Admiral Eraser, who was in Australian waters during the war, was astonished when he found that there were no facilities at Albany which would enable him to operate from that port in conjunction with the American naval forces in the final destruction of the Japanese forces. I suggest to the Minister for Defence that very serious consideration be given to the development of Albany as a naval dockyard and a defence post of the Western Australian seaboard. 891 KCF Corio ALP Minister for Defence, Minister for Post-war Reconstruction, and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN . - I want to answer one or two of the points that have been raised by the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Hamilton). The honorable member suggested that I had failed to recognize claims that had been made by ex-servicemen's organizations for an increase of the amount of loans for agricultural purposes permitted under the act. The maximum amount permissible is £1,000. I say, at once, that I always answer any correspondence that is addressed to me by ex-servicemen's organizations. I am sure that the honorable member cannot produce any letter on this subject that has been sent to me to which I cannot produce an answer. 892 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - I did not mention letters. 892 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - Letters and representations. Letters have to be sent to me, or a deputation has to wait on me, if the matter is to be brought to my notice. No deputation has waited on me, and no letter has been sent to me to which there has not been a reply in writing. I challenge the honorable member to produce any letter, or to mention any deputation which has approached me and avers that I have not given an answer. This matter has been considered on a number of occasions. It was reviewed by Cabinet just before I went overseas, about six months ago. In the light of all the circumstances, Cabinet decided that no increase should be made of the £1,000 that is allowable under the scheme. 892 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr Adermann - It is useless. 892 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - There have been 10,000 applications for it, and the total amount so far advanced to applicants under the scheme is £3,000,000. Yet the honorable .member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) says that it is useless! 892 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr Adermann - It is not enough to be effective. 892 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - A number of factors had to be taken into consideration in determining the maximum amount. In the first place, the amount of assistance which should be granted to individuals who desire to re-establish themselves on the land has to be considered in relation to the amount of assistance that is available to other ex-servicemen who want to establish themselves in business. As the matter stands, the amount available to men who want to establish themselves on the land is far greater than that which is available to any other group of individuals who desire to re-establish themselves. There has to be a balance between the assistance given to one section of ex-servicemen and that given to other sections. It must also be recognized that this is only one of two schemes. There is, in addition, the general land settlement scheme operated by the States as agents for the Commonwealth, and a great deal of money will be expended on that scheme, also. The scheme under which loans of £1,000 are made to settlers is merely ancillary to the main scheme, It has, in fact, certain disadvantages. For example, ex-servicemen, having in mind the present high prices for produce, may be prepared to pay quite a large amount for land, perhaps more than they really should, when, for their own welfare, it might be better if they refrained from doing so. "We have to examine applications very carefully. It is not desirable to advance amounts of more than £1,000 to applicants, when the probable effect would be to encourage men to go on the land under conditions which would prevent them from making a success of the enterprise. The honorable member also objected to deductions being made in respect of war pensions from the living allowances paid to men who had received loans of £1,000. I point out that the allowances are made to (men to enable them to live in a reasonable state of comfort while their farms are coming to production. It is right and just that the Government should take the view that, if a man's income from his farm is not sufficient to enable him to maintain a reasonable standard of living, the Government should make up the difference. The amount paid for this purpose is not a wage, or a reward for the services which the man has rendered to the community. It is, in fact, a living allowance, so that the man and his family may live in a reasonable state of comfort until his farm comes into full production. 892 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - Surely a man who suffers from some form of war disability cannot work like a fit man. 892 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - All that is taken into account. If a man suffers from a war disability, the effect will be manifest in the amount of work which he is able to do on his farm. If he cannot do enough to earn for himself a reasonable amount on which to live, the Government will make up the difference. However, in the light of what the honorable member for Swan has said, and what the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) has just interjected, I shall have another look at the matter. At first sight, it seemed to me that the Government was doing a reasonable thing. The honorable member also stated that, the Department of the Army had made an arrangement with the Commonwealth Savings Bank to deduct from an ex-serviceman's account with the bank a certain amount of money in order to recoup overpayments made to him while he was a prisoner of war. I do not believe that anything of the kind has been done. In the first place, I do not believe that the Department of the Army would try to make such an arrangement with the Commonwealth Savings Bank. In the second place, if it did try to do so, I do not believe that the Commonwealth Savings Bank would agree to the proposal. In the third. place, if anything of the kind has been done, it could be done only by arrangement with the ex-serviceman himself. 893 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - I am prepared to show that it has been done. 893 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - I am stating my opinion. If the honorable member can supply particulars to the Minister for the Army, I undertake that the practice will be stopped. 893 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - I rise to order. The Minister has stated that he does not believe what I said - in other words, that I told a deliberate lie. I ask that the Minister to withdraw that statement.. 893 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - What I said was that I did not believe that the Department of the Army would try to make such an arrangement. 893 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - The Minister does not know what he is talking about. 893 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Hamilton) must remain silent. He has had an opportunity to speak. 893 KGC 0 0 HAMILTON, Leonard Mr Hamilton - If the Minister- 893 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - If the honorable member for Swan interjects again, I will name him. 893 KCF 0 0 DEDMAN, John Mr DEDMAN - I am endeavouring to answer the statements which, I (understand, the honorable member for Swan made. I understood him to say that the Department of the Army had arrived at an arrangement with the Commonwealth Savings Bank that it should pay to the department from the account of ex-servicemen an amount of money equivalent to the amount overpaid to them while they were prisoners of war. 1 do not believe that the Department of the Army would try to. make such an arrangement with the Commonwealth Savings Bank. Moreover, I do not believe that the bank would pay over the money even if the Department of the Army tried, to make such an arrangement. If the honorable member can show the Minister for the Army that the facts are not as I state, I am quite sure that the Minister will take the matter up, and try to have it rectified. 893 KZ9 Kennedy ALP Minister for the Navy 1 0 RIORDAN, William Mr RIORDAN . - Honorable members opposite have been, for the most part, very eulogistic in their references to the Department of the Navy. The honorable member for Calare (Mr. Howse) suggested that, seeing that Great Britain proposed to reduce the number of naval units in commission, Australia should try to obtain some of those units, particularly destroyers, on loan. We have at the moment five destroyers on loan from the Royal Navy, namely, Quadrant, Quality, Queenborough, Quiberon and Quickmatch. The conditions of loan are similar to those which applied to the " V " and " W " class destroyers which came to the Royal Australian Navy after the 1914-18 war. If this country is to play its part in future Empire defence, it must develop its naval ship-building potential. _ The reasons for this are obvious. That is why we have already embarked upon a programme of naval ship-building. One destroyer is in course of construction at Cockatoo Island Dockyard, and another at Williamstown, while four' other destroyers are to be built. As for reserve training, for the moment all our resources must be concentrated on expanding and training a modern, seagoing force. There is at present a considerable body of highly trained reservists who were recently demobilized. It is intended to recommence reserve training as soon as circumstance? permit. The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) said that aircrews attached to aircraft carriers should be under the control of the Navy rather than of the Air Force. As a matter of fact, this alteration was effected some months ago. Recently, the Department of the Navy advertised for recruits for the Air Arm. The honorable member said that, in response to an advertisement for 80 officer pilots for the Air Arm, 700 applications had been received, but only 25 applicants had been selected. I should like to know the source of the honorable member's information, because it was only a few days ago that I approached the Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) for the loan of some officers from his department to assist the naval officers in the selection of men from amongst those who had applied for positions as pilot officers and rating pilots. We want 80 officer pilots and fifteen rating pilots. The honorable member argued that, seeing that so few had been selected from among 700 applicants, we should try to obtain pilots from the United Kingdom. I point out that thousands of Australians were trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme, and Australia invested millions of pounds on their training. Many of those trained men are anxious to join the Fleet Air Arm, and I believe that we should give them the first opportunity to man Australian carriers. Recently, we called for 4,000 volunteers to man the carriers, including members of the Air Arm, and men for other duties. Ten days after the first insertion of the advertisement, 3,819 applications were received. 894 JNX Bass ALP Minister for Repatriation 1 0 BARNARD, Herbert Mr BARNARD . - I regret that time does not permit me to reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) about widows' pensions, nor to reply in full to what he said about the Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital. As a matter of fact, I have not previously heard criticism of the type which he directed against the administration of that institution, but I shall have investigations made. Our great difficulty lies in getting sufficient staff. I believe that such difficulties as exist are due to staff shortages rather than to regimentation and red tape. Members of the staff work under industrial awards at Heidelberg, and we can only do the best possible with the staff available. If the honorable member could obtain 150 more nurses for us to-morrow we should be very glad to have them. I am at present trying to arrange, through the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Calwell), to obtain more staff from abroad. As for widows' pensions, something has been already done to afford relief to those groups which have been mentioned as experiencing the greatest difficulty. Like the honorable member, I have myself received many letters on this subject, and I shall look into the matter. 894 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The time allotted for the consideration of the proposed votes for the Defence and Service Departments, the Production Departments, Reciprocal Lend-lease, Re-establishment and Repatriation, International Relief and Rehabilitation, Subsidies, and Miscellaneous has expired. Proposed votes agreed to. Sitting suspended from 6 to 8 p.m. Miscellaneous Services Proposed vote, £4,774,000. Refunds of Revenue Proposed vote, £10,000,000. Advance to the Treasurer. Proposed vote, £10,000,000. War (1914-18) Services Proposed vote, £1,248,000. (Ordered to be considered together.) 894 KZX Brisbane 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON . - I would not have risen to address the committee on these Estimates, but for the unwarranted charges made by the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) and the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Lang) against certain honorable members on this side of the chamber during the discussion of the proposed vote for the Department of External Affairs. As these charges were made in relation to members of the delegation which attended the International Labour Conference at Geneva, the matter should have been discussed, not on the proposed vote for the Department of External Affairs, but on the proposed vote for Miscellaneous Services under the control of that department, namely, division 210. I regret that the honorable member for Warringah is not present in the chamber to hear my reply. In preferring his charges, the honorable member sought to mislead the people into believing that the representatives of the Government tripped around the world accompanied by their wives at the expense of the Australian taxpayers. I took my wife with me when I visited Paris two years ago as a representative of the Government, but not one farthing of my wife's travelling expenses was borne by the taxpayers. The honorable member for "Warringah then proceeded to make an attack upon Senator Amour, who also attended the International Labour Conference as a representative of the Government. I have no desire to discuss the pros and cons of that matter; I am sure that the honorable senator will answer it from his place in the Senate. The honorable member for "Warringah said that the cost of Senator Amour's visit to Geneva amounted to £31,000. The truth of the matter is that that amount represented the total amount provided on the Estimates for the delegation, and not one member of it. The honorable member also made an unwarranted attack on Senator Amour because of some statement he is said to have made to a pressman in Eire. In reading the statement to the committee, he sought to convey the impression that Senator Amour had been ashamed of his good Australian name and, while in Eire, called himself Senator L' Amour. Although it was obvious that the mis-spelling of the honorable senator's name was a printer's error, the honorable member emphasized it in almost every sentence of his attack. He was followed by the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony), who did likewise. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. After all, the honorable member for "Warringah was not able to vouch for the accuracy of the newspaper report. If we are to judge people by what is written about them in newspapers, I remind him that when he made a visit overseas not long ago - at his own expense, it is true, and not at the expense of the Government - he travelled on Orion and, according to reports, he and his wife were known on the vessel as Lieutenant-Colonel Percival Spender, K.C., M.P., and Lady Spender. The honorable member's attempt to belittle Senator Amour because of a printer's error was in exceedingly bad taste. The honorable member for Reid confended that it was illegal for members of missions and delegations overseas, to accept travelling allowances. The honorable member even went so far as to say that such allowances were in the nature of a bribe and were corrupt and that, by accepting them, the honorable members concerned had forfeited their right to continue to sit in this Parliament and should resign. It i9 characteristic of him to make untrue charges against honorable members on this side of the chamber. Ever since he became a member of this Parliament, he has done nothing but level charges and conduct a continuous muck-raking campaign against the Government and its supporters. He knows very well that appropriations have been made every year for the past 26 or 27 years for meeting the expenses of representatives of the Government at International Labour Conferences. Provision is made for this purpose under division 210 of these Estimates. The honorable member also said that the allowance paid to members of delegations representing Australia overseas amounted to approximately fifteen dollars a day. "When I interjected that that statement was untrue, the honorable member for Reid said, "I shall have an opportunity to state whether or not it is true ". I repeat that the statement is absolutely .untrue. While I was abroad I was paid an allowance in Australian currency of 30s. a day on land and 10s. a day at sea, a considerably smaller amount than that mentioned by the honorable member for Reid. Several honorable members thought they had discovered a mare's nest when they asked questions relating to the total expenses paid by the Government in respect of overseas missions. Replying to a question by the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Hamilton), the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) stated that the total amount paid in respect of the three representatives to the International Labour Conference, Senator J. M. Fraser, the honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Haylen) and myself, amounted to £8,899. I have taken the trouble. to ascertain the actual cost of my own trip abroad. It was £937. These figures demonstrate the falsity of the charges made by the honorable member for Reid. The honorable member for Reid also alleged that government representatives on overseas conferences were selected by the Labour party as a reward for their services to the Prime Minister and to the Cabinet. He knows as well as I do that such representatives are selected by an absolute majority of the party. In 1925 I attended the International Labour Conference in Geneva when it was governed by the League of Nations. In my report I pointed out to the Bruce Page Government that in my opinion the conference was of paramount importance to the people, particularly the workers, of Australia. I made certain recommendations, some of which I am pleased to know have since been carried out. I sincerely hope that the Government will continue to be represented at the International Labour Conference, because during its deliberations matters of great importance to the Australian people are discussed. I felt compelled to say what I have said because of the charges made, particularly by the honorable member for Warringah and the honorable member for Reid. 896 009MB Indi 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN .- I desire to refer to certain items appearing in the Estimates under the heading " Miscellaneous Services ". The first is that which provides for the cost of conducting elections for various primary producers' boards. I understand that at least two more boards are in prospect. Those boards are being progressively established by statute in circumstances purporting politically to give primary producers control over the industries in which they are engaged, but, in fact, the boards are explicitly designed to do the very reverse and remove from the primary producers any authority over their own industries and to centralize all authority over those industries in the hands of the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Pollard). The Australian Wheat Board, we were told, as an election bait, was to be reconstituted and that a majority of its members would be primary producers' representatives chosen by themselves. That promise was carried out. For the first time, a board concerned with primary production was so constituted, but the very act that gave effect to that promise stripped that board of every vestige of authority and placed all authority over the operations of the wheat industry - the area that could be sown, who might sow wheat, where wheat could be sold, who should sell it, to whom and at what price, and every other aspect of the industry - in the hands of the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, who sits as a dictator over the Australian Wheat Board. Exactly the same process has been followed in respect of the meat industry. The Australian Meat Board includes representatives of the producers, but again the act provides that the chairman shall be appointed by the Minister. The chairman has the right of veto of any decision of the majority of the board, and sitting above him is the Minister, who can negative any decision of the board, and can give to it any direction he likes. Exactly the same pattern has been followed in the establishment of the Australian Apple and Pear Marketing Board. We shall soon have before us for consideration the establishment of a dairy produce export control board, and again exactly the same pattern is to be followed. We have been warned of an egg board, which no doubt. will reveal the same dominating figure of the Minister removing every vestige of freedom from the primary producers. The' same kind of authority is established in respect of the Australian Wool Board. So we have unfolding a progressive plan to place under the control of one man, the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture of the day, not only the ultimate destiny of every producer, but also his day-by-day activities and his year-by-year financial returns. Lest anything should escape through that net, there are the other complementary provisions ensuring that the Treasurer shall exercise a similar arbitrary control over land sales and capital issues. That is to be capped by the banking legislation. It is completely at variance with the desires of the Australian primary producers that there should he this constantly growing aggregation of authority in the hands of two Ministers. This is almost an exact copy of the plan that was followed by Mussolini. That statement is not to be laughed at. It is almost exactly the same as his plan, except that he finally took all the portfolios himself. All authority over the industrial activities of the Italian people was placed in the hands of one man, Mussolini. That was the ultimate step in the establishment of the dictatorship in Italy. It is well that this country should be warned. "We are not discussing some figment of the imagination in warning this country that the Government is following the traditional path of dictators. It is already well on the path. It only requires the passing of the referendum on prices control to put on the coping stone. Having made that protest, I pass to another item under the same heading, [t is in the Estimates only because of the very circumstances that I have related. I refer to the item of £2,000,000 to be provided by the Australian taxpayers on account of the wheat agreement with New Zealand last year. That agreement, which, of course, was achieved in most regrettable circumstances in this Parliament of barefaced lying, suppression of the facts by the Ministers concerned, evasion and equivocation and brazen and shameless deception. That was shown by our statement of the facts. Those are not exaggerated statements. They are completely justifiable comments upon an astonishing business transaction, the contractual sale to New Zealand of 18,000,000 bushels of Australian wheat at the ceiling price of 5s. 9d. a bushel in circumstances in which the price has gradually risen until the export parity of wheat is known to be 17s. a bushel. The provision of £2,000,000 in these Estimates for that purpose is inadequate because the contract, as we are told, provides for the sale of wheat to New Zealand at 5s. 9d. a bushel. The contract provided that last year we should sell to New Zealand 4,500,000 bushels out of the total provision of 18,000,000 bushels. It seems likely that New Zealand will again be supplied with another 4,500,000 bushels this year at 5s. 9d. a bushel from the same silos as those from which wheat is being sold to the United Kingdom at 17 s. a bushel. The discrepancy is lis. 3d. a bushel. A simple calculation shows that to make up to the Australian Wheat Board the deficiency on that quantity of wheat, the sum of £2,531,262 will be required. So, the Estimates understate the commitment of the Government to the extent of more than £500.000. That is not the end of the story, because we have read that the Government of the United Kingdom is desirous of entering a long-term agreement for the purchase of Australian wheat. On what terms are we to sell wheat to the United Kingdom ? Is it to be recorded in the annals of this country that we sell wheat to New Zealand for 5s. 9d. a bushel and to the United Kingdom from the same silos at 17s. a bushel? Is that the intention? If it is, why can we not be told? If it is not, what does the Government propose to do ? I know what it ought to do. The first step it should take is to consult the Chairman of the Australian Wheat Board upon the terms that should be arranged for such a sale. I asked the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture the following question a few weeks ago : - In view of the suggestion that the Commonwealth Government may enter into a contract, perhaps a long-term contract, for the sale of wheat to the United Kingdom, will the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture give an undertaking that no commitments for the sale of wheat, which represents the livelihood of our wheat-growers, will be made without first securing the fullest advice of the Australian Wheat Board on all aspects of the proposal, as the sale of substantial parcels of wheat without the full knowledge and advice of the board would represent a complete negation of the purposes for which it was established and render utterly valueless the placing of a majority of growers on the board? That was a simple, straightforward and reasonable query to put to the Minister. The answer I received was - The submission made by the honorable member will be given consideration. If the Minister is prepared to consult the board on this issue, why does he not say so? I did not ask him to act on the advice of the board, although I think he ought to. My question merely asked him whether he would consult the board. If he is not prepared to say, " Yes, I will consult the board ", the only reasonable inference I feel justified in drawing is that he intends to follow the course his predecessor followed when the negotiations were in train for the sale of wheat to New Zealand, and absolutely ignore the existence of the board, and negative any value it may possess. If that is the course he proposes .to take, I cannot voice my protest with sufficient emphasis. The wheat-farmers of this country will not tolerate the sale of their wheat behind the backs of their elected representatives. If, however, it is his intention to consult the board, or if he has consulted it, it is time that he told the Parliament that lie will consult or has consulted it. That would be the end of the matter. I should then feel that our fight over the New Zealand agreement had borne fruit in respect to future contracts. The implications could be more serious if the wheat requirements of the United Kingdom were sold to it at rates substantially below the reasonable value of the wheat, if the wheat-growers were to carry the loss, and if the Government were not to follow the course which it followed in an announcement immediately before the elections in respect of the' wheat agreement with New Zealand. I do not know whether I am entitled to interpret anything from the gestures of the Minister, and I do not desire to interpret him wrongly, but he seems to believe that there is some inference to be drawn from my inquiry as to whether the wheatgrowers will be called upon to carry the burden. 898 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - I think that the honorable member knows all about it. 898 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - I do not. 898 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - I think that the honorable member has some inside information. 898 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - I shall reply to the Minister, but not because his interjection affects me. I could obtain inside information only by approaching some one on the board or in the department. I give to honorable members and the Minister my word that I have no inside information whatever. My original question was founded upon a news item which appeared in the daily press on the day I asked the question. If I interpreted the Minister correctly a few minutes ago, as thinking that it was an improper or unjustifiable suggestion that wheat-growers might be asked to bear whatever loss is involved by selling wheat to the United Kingdom at a price lower than that which might otherwise be realized, let me raise this point with him. For such a sale there could possibly be an economic and political justification. I hasten to make it clear that I do not agree with it, but arguments could conceivably be advanced as to why wheat should be sold to the United Kingdom for less than its realizable value, and Australian wheat-growers bear the loss. What I do not believe could be justified would be the sale of wheat to New Zealand in circumstance* which did not involve the growers in any loss, because the contract happened to be revealed immediately before the elections. But a similar agreement, made with the. United Kingdom, in the safety of post-election days, follows different principles. If a contract is made before an election the Government bears the loss; but if a contract is made after the election the growers carry the burden. That requires some explanation. In the very limited period which honorable members are allowed for this discussion, I do not propose to exhaust all the time which is available to me, but I feel that I am entitled to ask the Minister to state whether he will fully consult the Australian Wheat Board before he enters into any more contracts for sales of wheat overseas. I ask him also to state whether he will apply the same principle of consultation to other primary production boards when any overseas contracts may be in prospect. I have referred to the item of £2,000,000 in respect of the New Zealand wheat agreement. On the figures which I have quoted, I have not the slightest doubt that next year's budget will reveal that the obligation exceeded £2,500,000, which will be provided by the taxpayers of Australia as a gesture of our bounty to the Government of New Zealand. I shall now draw some comparisons. The soya bean is one of the greatest food and industrial crops in the world. In this respect, it is comparable with wheat. For some reason or other, we in Australia have never succeeded in establishing the soya bean industry on a commercial basis. Our purchases of soya beans are made in the dollar area. But these estimates provide only £200 for investigations of the soya bean industry in this country. Again, the artificial insemination of cattle is a recent innovation which could have far-reaching and revolutionary consequences to our livestock industry. For investigations of this technique only £100 is provided on the Estimates. In addition, a mere £10,000 will be paid to the States to assist them ^ in scientific investigation of, and experimentation with, tobacco-growing. Tobacco is another normal agricultural crop. We have not been able to produce nearly enough tobacco to meet Australian requirements, but I am convinced that, with adequate investigation and experimentation, we could solve our problems in this industry. Our purchases of tobacco from the dollar area cost millions of pounds a year. This considerable expenditure could be avoided by the adequate production of this crop in Australia. Yet an amount of only £10,000 is provided for investigation. This sum would be sufficient to pay the annual salaries of only a dozen men. That is the relative valuation which the Department of Commerce and Agriculture places on these problems which await solution. How could one expend £100 a year on an investigation of the technique of the artificial insemination of cattle? This amount is hardly the salary of an office boy. And what can be done with £200 for the soya bean industry ? I should like some honorable member who is wiser than I am to explain these riddles. I do not pretend to understand them. 899 KDB 0 0 EDMONDS, William Mr Edmonds - Was not the soya bean industry necessary when the Menzies Government, of which the honorable member for Indi was a member, was in office? 899 009MB CP; LCL from 1940; CP from 1943 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - It might have been but Australia then did not have the same dollar problem that it has now. If the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Edmonds) will examine the Estimates of a few years ago, he will find that the Government of which I was a member provided amounts of £100,000, £120,000, and £150,000 for the tobacco industry. 899 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - No such sum was ever spent. 899 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - That is easy to say, but the records will prove that the amounts were expended. In conclusion, I request the Minister to make a clear and unequivocal statement explaining whether he intends to consult the Australian Wheat Board and other primary production boards before he involves Australian producers in long-term overseas contracts. 899 KYC Ballaarat ALP Minister for Commerce and Agriculture 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD . - As I entered the chamber, I heard the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) say that the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture sits as a dictator over the Australian Wheat Board. He then proceeded to point out that legislation provides for the Minister to sit as a dictator over the operations of other primary production boards. What the honorable member failed to tell the chamber is that, in respect of every semi governmental instrumentality and in particular those organizations dealing with primary products, the Government of which he was a member either made exactly the same provision, which had the same ultimate effect, or perpetuated authorities which were in existence when that Government came into office. I shall prove the truth of that assertion. When the Curtin Government came into office, it found that a national security regulation, gazetted by the Menzies Government, provided for the handling of the Australian wheat crop. 899 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - Under emergency wartime conditions. 899 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The honorable member for Indi endeavours to wriggle out of his fix by saying, " Under emergency war-time conditions", but the fact was that the Menzies Government placed itself in exactly the same position as he accuses me of occupying, and, as I admit, I occupy as the protector of the people's rights, funds and liberties. Long before the outbreak of World War II., exactly the same provision applied to marketing boards. Perhaps the verbiage was not the same, but always the executive government possessed a reserve power to veto the decisions of any of those authors ties. If the honorable member desires me to cite instances, the Australian Wine Board and the Australian Meat Board are two examples which come readily to my mind. What else did the Menzies Government do? At the outbreak of World War II., under regulations and without consulting Australian wool-growers, it sold . our entire wool clip to the Government of the United Kingdom at a price far below the cost of production. When the Curtin Government came into office, it availed itself of the opportunity which was provided by a clause in the agreement - certainly this clause was inserted by the Menzies Government - to ask for a review of the price. Opposition members interjecting, 900 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - When members of the Opposition cease interjecting and refrain from indicating their discomfiture when confronted with the facts, I shall proceed with my speech. 900 10000 0 0 MULCAHY, Daniel The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Mulcahy - Order! The- Chair will prevent further interjections. 900 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I was about to say that the Menzies Government, in which the honorable member for Indi was a Minister, certainly did include in the agreement a clause providing for a review of wool prices. The agreement was for the duration of the war, but the Menzies Government allowed a year to elapse and did not ask for a review. When the Curtin Government came into office, it succeeded in obtaining an increased price for Australian wool-growers. Let me return to this so-called autocratic, dictatorial power which resides, through me, in this Government. Under regulations gazetted by the Menzies Government, exactly the same power operated. On the Australian Wheat Board, which the Menzies Government appointed to handle Australian wheat, the representatives of the growers were in a substantial minority. The representatives of merchants and the flour milling industry dominated the board. It is true that the final authority resides in the Australian Government. The honorable member for Indi is completely confused in his thinking. He asked me whether I would give an undertaking to consult the Australian Wheat Board in regard to the possibility of long-term contracts with the United Kingdom Government. At this stage I do not intend to tell him whether I have done so or not. The honorable gentleman considers that I should not only consult the board, but that I should also accept its advice. In other words, he desires the Australian Government entirely to abrogate the powers vested in it under the Constitution. He considers that its powers should be handed over to the Australian Wheat Board, the Australian Wine Board, the Australian Dairy Produce Export Control Board, and other control boards that have been, or may be, constituted. If the Government did so, it would be throwing away the birthright of the Australian people. The view of this Government is that the boards that may be established must be answerable finally to the Executive. If the Australian Wheat Board, for example, had complete authority in itself it could sell Australia's wheat to any foreign government, or to the British Government, or to any other authority for any price that it chose to fix, and the executive government would have no say in the matter. This Government does not intend to divest itself of its responsibility to the Australian people. Under the Commonwealth Constitution, the Australian Government has power over trade and commerce with other countries and among the States. Any government which threw aside that authority, or delegated it to some subsidiary body, would be guilty of a serious breach of trust. In the coming year the Australian Wheat Board will be required to handle a crop valued at probably £100,000,000. In respect of that vast sum, it will be responsible to the Australian Government, and if this Government were to seek to divest itself of its responsibility in this connexion, it would be false to the trust which the Australian people has put in it. The Government, therefore, makes no apology for retaining final power in its own hands. It is so much humbug for the honorable member for Indi to talk about dictatorships and the like. There has never been an Australian government, tory or otherwise, which has not exercised the power that this Government is exercising. It would be entirely undemocratic for the Government to abrogate its powers and vest them in some entirely semi-governmental body not responsible to the Parliament or the people. That would not be a fit and proper action for a democratic government to take. The honorable member for Indi said that I should accept the advice of the Australian Wheat Board. That would mean, in effect, that I should give the board a blank cheque. I am not prepared, to do so and I should have no right to do so. It would' have far-reaching consequences in many directions. The honorable member made it quite clear that he thinks that I should both consult the Australian Wheat Board and act on its advice. 901 009MB CP; LCL from 1940; CP from 1943 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - That is right. 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The board might be guilty of an error of judgment. 901 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - I consider that the judgment of the board would be more reliable than that of the Minister. 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The point at issue is not whether the judgment of the board might be sounder than mine, but whether the final authority in this matter should be vested in the government of the country or in a subsidiary body. It should be remembered that, at the outbreak of World War II., the government of which the honorable member for Indi was a member, and of which ex-Senator McLeay was Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, sold Australian wheat without any consultation whatever with the wheat-growers of Australia. The honorable gentleman consulted nobody. He could not consult the Australian Wheat Board, because that body had' hot then been constituted, and he did not consult departmental officers. The Minister exercised his own judgment and his decision was subject to approval by his Cabinet colleagues. The honorable member for Indi is now advocating the setting up of a body whose powers would be equal to those of a Czarist or semi-Communist instrumentality which would1 be responsible to no one but itself. It would certainly not be responsible to the people. In these circumstances I cannot 'find any reasonable ground for taking notice of the honorable gentleman's advice. 901 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr Adermann - Does the Minister say that producer-controlled organizations are Communist? 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - I did' not say anything of the kind. I said that the final responsibility in these matters must continue to be vested in the Australian Government and that this Government will not be a paTty to the setting up of authorities with powers equal to those of a Communist state such as the honorable member- for Indi apparently desires' to see established". 901 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - I did' not. propose anything of the kind. 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD -.- It was what the honorable gentleman was suggesting, even if he did not understand his own suggestion.. A dairy produce- export, control board which is to be constitutedwill require to obtain financial backing, from the. Australian Government and may draw funds totalling probably £15,000)00.0 from government sources. Does the honorable member for Indi suggest that that body should be a law unto itself, and that the Australian Government should finance the. board's operations without having any authority whatsoever over it? This Government will not sanction anything of that description. Reference has been made to the soya bean industry, and it has been contended that a provision of £200 on the Estimates in respect of this industry is al to.gether inadequate. The fact is that the Australian Government has been providing funds for a considerable time for the investigation of the possibilities1 of this industry in Australia. The proposed vote of £200 for expenditure this year in connexion with this industry represents only a small part of what the Government is doing in this regard. 901 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - Are- operations from previous years being carried over into this year?' 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) seems to be unconscious of the fact that twelve months have elapsed, since last year's Estimates were before us and also of the other fact that soya beans do not need to be specifically mentioned in the Estimates in order that government funds may be expended in connexion with in- .vestigations of the industry. 901 KQB 0 0 SCULLY, William Mr Scully - An amount of £10,000 has been provided for investigating the possibilities of the industry. 901 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - The amount of £200 which has been mentioned this evening may represent only- travelling expenses. 901 JTY CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr ARCHIE CAMERON - Cameron. - Not much travelling could be done for £200. 902 KYC 0 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr POLLARD - "Whilst it is true that not much travelling could be done for that amount, it is also true that this Government has done a great deal to investigate the possibilities of the industry. The Government financed a visit to the United States of America last year by Mr. Bulcock, the Director-General of Agriculture, Mr. Mullett, the Director of Agriculture of Victoria, Mr. Grantham, of the Department of Agriculture of New South "Wales, and Mr. McEwen, of the Department of Agriculture in Queensland, in order to investigate the industry in America. Those gentlemen were thoroughly competent in every respect to investigate both the technical and practical aspects of the industry and they have presented a most valuable report of the result of their investigations. It will be seen, therefore, that the Australian Government is alive to the possibilities of establishing this industry in Australia. A vital fact which should not be overlooked, however, is that the development of the industry, the determination of suitable areas for the growing of soya beans, and the encouragement of people to embark "upon the enterprise are matters almost exclusively for the State governments. The State departments of agriculture are staffed by highly equipped technical and practical officers, many of whom hold a science degree in agriculture. In these circumstances it is unjust to -charge the Australian Government with inactivity. This Government could not do more than it is doing to develop the industry without substantially increasing the personnel of its appropriate departments, and honorable gentlemen opposite are always ready enough to utter criticism about the growth of the public service. The matter in fact is one for attention by the State governments. Those matters must he taken into consideration. The soya bean industry may have very bright prospects in Australia. It is a very great industry in the United States of America. From memory, I should say that the area under cultivation in that country is 13,000,000 acres. The greater portion of the oil extracted from the soya bean in the United States of America is used for shortening purposes. The demand for shortening is not so great in Australia as in the United States of America. The shortening products used by the Australian housewife are derived mainly from the beef industry. Therefore, there is not the same call in this country as there is in the United States of America for shortening products from the soya bean. The honorable member for Indi has directed some criticism against what he has described as inadequate provision in the Estimates for artificial insemination. All that I have to say to him on that subject i9 that at one stage it was suggested that the Commonwealth should engage extensively in that particular work. I ruled, and I had the backing of the Government, that on the scientific side the Commonwealth had done a good job in connexion with the work through the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research; that on the practical side, everybody should know that the State departments of agriculture have a large number of veterinary officers, to whose particular functions that class of work is related ; and that it was for the States to get busy on this work for the improvement of the Australian dairying and other industries. I admit that there may be some scope in the future for the Commonwealth to give financial assistance, but I am opposed to its engaging in the work directly with its own officers. I trust that the people of Australia will pay heed to the advocacy of the honorable member for Indi in respect of the appointment of authorities not responsible to the people with power which the framers of the Constitution determined should reside in the executive government and should not he delegated to any other body. 902 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Mulcahy - I call the honorable member for "Wimmera (Mr. Turnbull). 902 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - I rise to a point of order. The' custom in this Parliament is that, when honorable members rise in their places, they receive consideration from the Chair. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.There is no point of order. I have called the honorable member for Wimmera. 902 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - It is a deliberate attempt by the Chair to prevent me from speaking. 903 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - 1 ask the honorable member to apologize ; otherwise, I shall name him. 903 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - I withdraw. 903 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr Turnbull - I shall make way for the honorable member for Wentworth. 903 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - [ call the honorable member for Hindmarsh. 903 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - I raise a point of order which, I believe, you will regard as reasonable. You gave the call to the honorable member for Wimmera, who indicated his willingness to give way to the honorable member for Wentworth. It is within the province of the Chair to decline to accept such an offer, but if it does so the honorable member who makes it is entitled to take the call. I understand that the honorable member for Wimmera desires to do that. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I have called the honorable member for Hindmarsh.. There is no point of order. 903 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - I rise to order. The honorable member for Wentworth is to be regarded, at the moment, not in that capacity, but as Acting Leader of the Opposition, and is entitled to whatever rights the Leader of the Opposition would have if he were present. No Chairman of Committees or Temporary Chairman of Committees would refrain from giving the call to the Leader of the Opposition. 903 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - There is no point of order. 903 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr Turnbull - I rise to order. When you called me, I rose and announced that I was prepared to give way to the honorable member for Wentworth. 903 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - Who had risen earlier, when no other honorable member on this side had done so. 903 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr Turnbull - I expected you, Mr. Temporary Chairman, to say whether you would accept my offer. If you do not, I shall take the call. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member is not now getting the call. As he waived his right to speak, the Chair is entitled to call any other honorable member. 903 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - I want to raise a different point of order, namely, that the call is granted alternately to each side of the chamber. The last speaker was the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture. If the call is to alternate, the next speaker must be an honorable member who sits on this side of the chamber. When the honorable member for Wentworth rose, the honorable member for Wimmera and the honorable member for Balaclava also did so. The Chair will not be acting in accordance with the procedure and practice of this chamber if it now gives the call to an honorable member on the Government side, when an honorable member on this side wishes to speak. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN The honorable member ha9 made his point quite clear. 903 JTY 0 0 CAMERON, Archie Mr Archie Cameron - I want to complete it. I desire to make it quite clear that, according to procedure and practice, the call alternates from side to side, and that the Chair is not entitled to call two honorable members from the one side successively when' honorable members on the other side wish to speak. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! I shall not allow the honorable member to argue whether the Chair is right or wrong. I have called the honorable member for Hindmarsh, and that is the end of the matter. 903 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - I rise to order. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I will not hear the honorable member. 903 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - My point of order relates to a different matter. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.If the honorable member does not resume his seat, I shall name him. 903 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr White - You will not hear a point of order? The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.No. I will not hear the honorable member. The honorable member for Maranoa having submitted in writing his objection to the ruling of the Temporary Chairman - Motion (by Mr. Adermann) proposed - That the ruling be dissented from. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The question is : " That the ruling be dissented from ". 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - This is a matter that we can debate. 904 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - While I am on my feet, the honorable member will remain seated. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - You are putting the question ? The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I am. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - Before you do so, I want to ,say a few words. I support the motion. I believe that it has been submitted because of what we on this side of the committee consider to be definite bias on the part of the Chair, and an attempt- 904 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - Order ! I will not allow the honorable member to proceed on those lines. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - I take it that the Chair cannot prevent an honorable member from giving reasons for such a motion having been placed before it. At 8 o'clock to-night, when a fresh group of proposed votes came before the committee, I, as Acting Leader of the Opposition, rose in my place, .as did the honorable member for Indi. 904 009MB 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEwen - Who is also to-night Acting Leader of the Australian Country party. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - No other honorable member on this side of the chamber rose at that time, but on the Government side the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. George Lawson) did so. The Chair exercised its right to call whom it chose, by giving the call to the honorable member for Brisbane. As Acting Leader of the ^Opposition, I maintain that the Chair had the definite duty of conforming to custom in this and other democratic parliaments, by giving the next call to the Leader or the Acting Leader of the Opposition. The Chair decided not to do so, and I offered no objection. It gave the next call to the honorable member for Indi, who is Deputy Leader of the Australian Country party. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order ! That has nothing to do with the matter. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - With 'great- respect, I say that it has. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member cannot ;go back to what happened at 8 o'clock to-night. 904 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison - May I submit, with great respect, that although you occupy the Chair at the moment, you represent the -Chairman of Committees, who resumed the Chair at 8 o'clock to-night? Anything which has transpired since that time is the responsibility of the Chairman or of his Deputy. I have a perfect .right to give reasons for the submission of the motion. The next call was given rightly to the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. .Pollard). Immediately he sat down I again, as Acting Leader of the Opposition, rose to take the call. I had indicated earlier my desire that I should receive the call, in accordance with custom. Honorable members on the Government side made that perfectly clear at the time, by saying to me, " You did not get the call ". There seems to be a concerted effort to prevent me from speaking to-night, because I- wish to place certain matters before the committee. Instead of calling me, the.'Chair called two members of the Australian Country party in succession, even though they had not risen earlier. A member of that party declared his willingness to make way for me, as Acting Leader of the Opposition. The Chairman .(.Mr. Clark) having resumed the Chair, 904 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The time allotted for the consideration of the proposed vote3 for Miscellaneous Services, Refunds of Revenue, Advance to the Treasurer and War (1914-18) Services, has expired. 904 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Holt - I rise to order. According to the time schedule agreed to by the committee, the votes on the departments under consideration must be taken at a prescribed time. The question before the Chair at the moment is not the proposed votes, however, but a motion of dissent from the ruling of the Chair. Until that question has been disposed of, the Chair cannot put the question that the proposed votes now before the .committee be agreed to. Question put - That the ruling be dissented from. The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. J. J. Clark.) 23 39 Majority...... 16 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Proposed votes agreed to. Commonwealth Railways Proposed vote, £1,530,000. Postmaster-General's Department Proposed vote, £26,836,000. (Ordered to he considered together.) 905 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr Turnbull -i wish to make a personal explanation. Ever since I have been a member of this Parliament, I have noted the procedure very closely. I haveobserved that if an honorable member wishes to get the call he makes it apparent-- 905 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -The honorable member may discussonly how he has been misrepresented. 905 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr Turnbull -i am trying to explain why I rose just now, andwhy I said that I would give way to the honorable member for Wentworth . (Mr. Harrison). On this point I have been misrepresented by the TemporaryChairman. Actually, Iwanted to speak on the proposed vote for the Postmaster-General's Department, which I now find was not then before the committee, and as it was not our turn to get the call, I gave way to the honorable member for Wentworth, and af ter he hadspoken I proposed to speak. 905 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I think the honorable member has now sufficiently explained his position. Where the call goes is a matter for determination by the Chair. The proposed votes now before the committee arethe Commonwealth Railways and the Postmaster-General's Department. 905 KZR Balaclava 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE .- On page 145 of the Estimates, there is a proposed allocation of £1,336,600 for the carriage of air mails. The Government is indulging in an orgy of extravagance by setting up an Airlines Commission to operate Trans-Australia Airlines for the carriage of mails, and it is hampering private enterprise in order to bring about a government monopoly. Against this policy I strongly protest, especially as the Government is using the Civil Aviation Department to further its policy. The Government is proposing to control and regulate civil aviation with the intention of crippling private enterprise and, ultimately, of driving it out of existence. In order to achieve this purpose, nothing is too despicable. An amount of £3,000,000 was allocated for the Government's venture in conducting an airline, and while we cannot get a balance-sheet- 905 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member is now going beyond the item relating to thecarriage of air mails. He must discuss the Postmaster-General's Department, andnot air services generally. 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - As I have painted out, it is proposed to allocate an amount of £1,336,600 for the carriage of air mails. The mails cannot be carried unless the aeroplanes land on aerodromes. 906 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The Chair rules otherwise. 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - I have had much experience with aircraft, but that is a new one on one - the suggestion that aircraft can remain flying for ever, and never come down. A total of 42 letters go to the pound, for which the postage is 10s. 6d. Of this, the air company which carries the mails receives 4s. 3d., while the Government takes 6s. 3d. for itself. Because the air companies were carrying on satisfactorily under this arrangement, the Government thought that it was too good to continue, so it decided to enter the field. Nothing is too big and nothing is too small for the Government to nationalize. 906 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - I do not propose to continue that discussion. 906 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The honorable member must confine his remarks to the carriage of air mails, otherwise he must resume his seat. 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - I will try to keep within that narrow compass. About two years ago, the Government called tenders for the carriage of air mails, and received 100 applications. Then, following the socialistic technique, it set up an interdepartmental committee to consider the applications. In the meantime, a great many of the applicants went into other occupations. The committee continued its lucubrations for two years, but never issued a report. Then the Government took over the mail services from the companies, which had been operating them satisfactorily, but the government air services do not go into the back country. Before this so-called Labour Government entered the aviation field, there was a web of air services covering country areas, and giving a useful, personal service to country people. This Government stifled the enterprise of the small companies and is robbing the principal companies which made a success of the carriage of air mails and passengers. I realize that I would not be in order in referring to airports at this stage but I may perhaps refer to airport charges. Although the private airlines are still carrying air mails and one of the principal companies is paying approximately £100,000 a year in petrol tax alone, the Government has recently imposed upon them- 906 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! The honorable member is endeavouring to evade the ruling of the Chair. He knows that he must abide by the Standing Orders. 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - It is difficult to understand how the estimate of £1,336,600 for airmail services is made up. If we are not permitted to dissect that estimate we should at least be entitled to invite the Minister representing the Postmaster-General to do so. Are the taxpayers who provide the money for the carriage of air mails to have it thrown away in an orgy of extravagance without any explanation on the part of the Government? This is the appropriate time for the Government to indicate how this money is being expended. If' it intends to encourage the carriage of air mails into the outback portions of the continent it. should indicate whether the airline companies will be given an opportunity to provide the requisite services. 906 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - I shall give the honorable member all the details presently. 906 KZR 0 0 WHITE, Thomas Mr WHITE - The Standing Orders prevent me from traversing some of the despicable acts of the Government which have frustrated and stultified the private airline companies. All the services being provided by Trans- Australia Airlines could have been provided by the private airline companies had they been permitted to purchase a few additional aircraft. A royal commission should be appointed to inquire into the subject of the carriage of air mails and of civil aviation generally. 906 JTF Perth 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr BURKE .- The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) is critical of the operation of the government-sponsored and directed airline. I assume that I may be permitted in passing to touch upon the activities of that instrumentality. The honorable member has for so long told us to follow the lead of Great Britain that it is remarkable to hear him advocate a departure from that policy. As he is aware, a government-controlled airline was established first in Great Britain. The British example was quickly followed by Canada, and later a government-owned service was established in Australia which has been a credit to its organizers and has played a valuable contribution to aviation in this country. 907 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable member to discuss the proposed votes before the committee. 907 JTF 0 0 BURKE, Thomas Mr BURKE - The railways owned and operated by the Commonwealth provide an excellent service. Those who travel across the continent on the Trans-Australian Railway regard the service as unsurpassed in this country. Indeed, I have frequently been told that it is equal to any similar service in the world. For many years the men employed on the railway line which stretches across the great interior of the continent lived under conditions which were far from satisfactory. In my most recent trip on the Trans-Australian Railway I found that excellent amenities are being provided for those who service the line and the crews who operate the trains. Very fine homes are now being built for them. I have every reason to believe that the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Johnson) has been mainly responsible for these improvements. Long before any improvements had been effected his voice was raised constantly in this chamber asking that better amenities be provided. It is to the great credit of the honorable gentleman that when he took office as Minister for the Interior he immediately began to provide improved amenities for these people. There is one further improvement which may not be immediately practicable but to which consideration might be given. I refer to the desirability of abolishing class distinctions on our railway services generally. First and second class travel is completely inappropriate in a country like Australia. As a student of Henry Lawson, I feel sure that the Minister will recall that this great Australian in a poem written many years ago expressed the fervent hope that in the world to come there will be no notices erected reading " Second class wait here ". Whilst it may not be possible to provide one-class travel on the Trans-Australian line immediately, the policy pursued by the Minister gives me reason to hope that at the appropriate time he will introduce such a reform. The Postmaster-General's Department renders extremely valuable service to the public, but due to shortages of various kinds it is unable to cope with many of the demands made upon it, particularly for improved telephone services. Another urgent need is the provision of new post offices and allied facilities. In Western Australia, and I presume in other States throughout the Commonwealth, the conditions under which the postal staffs live and work are, in many instances, far from ideal. I trust that the Postmaster-General (Senator Cameron) will be able to provide better amenities for them in the near future. In a survey of the conditions under which these employees work I found that even in heavily populated centres staff amenities were very crude indeed. Postal officials are very loyal and hard working members of the Public Service and the Government should provide ad'equate amenities for them as soon as it is possible to do so. The Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs in Perth has informed me that telephone installations are held up principally because of the shortage of switch equipment, which is imported, and not because of a production lag in Australia. I trust that the Government will provide improved telephone facilities as rapidly as possible. Finally, there is an urgent need for the building of new post offices throughout Australia. I do not urge that post offices should take precedence over houses but I ask that as soon as the housing lag is overcome the rebuilding programme of the department be proceeded with as rapidly as possible. I, and one of my colleagues in the Senate, have been pressing for some time for the construction of a new post office at Inglewood. We hope that the new building wall be provided at an early date. I rose principally to pay a tribute to the Minister for the Interior for the excellent work he has rendered in providing improved amenities and better housing facilities for the staff of tile Commonwealth Railways and to urge that postal services of all kinds be improved as soon as practicable. 908 JLR Maranoa 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN . - I am glad that the Minister for the Interior (Mr: Johnston) is present in the chamber because there is a matter upon which I should like some advice from the honorable gentleman. I understand that it is the policy of the Government to make his department responsible for the construction of new post offices. The Estimates include an item concerning the renting of buildings- 908 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - To which item does the honorable member refer? 908 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN - I refer to the item covering' the repair and rental of buildings. I should like the Minister to explain why the Department of the Interior constructs buildings on behalf of the Postmaster-General's Department. I am at a loss to understand why the Postmaster-General's Department, which is a separate undertaking, does not construct the buildings for which it is responsible. 908 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - It has always been the practice for new buildings to be constructed by the Department of the Interior. 908 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! The honorable member is dealing with a matter' which .may be' discussed only when the Works- Estimates are before the committee. 908 JLR 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN - I believe we would get better service from the Postmaster-General's Department if it constructed its own buildings. I have no desire to evade your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I am in a difficulty because of this conflict between the two departments. Work in many of our post, offices is detrimentally affected because of the lack of room for the staff. Provision is made in the estimates of the'- Postmaster-General's Department for rent and repairs to buildings but that department has to wait for the inspectors of the Department of the Interior to authorize new constructions, notwithstanding that the work may have been classified as urgent by the Postmaster-General's Department. An explanation of the reason for this might be made either by the. Minister- for the Interior or the Minister rep-resenting the Postmaster-General. I 'km greatly interested to know why the present policy is pursued. I notice that the Estimates provide for the expenditure of the following amounts in the various States on inland mail services, excluding railway services: - New South Wales, £510,000; Victoria, £241,500; Queensland, £262,500; South Australia, £70,500-; Western Australia, £65,050, and Tasmania, £60,340. Victoria is only one-third the size of my electorate, and Queensland does not appear to be equitably treated in the proposed allocations, in view of the enormous distances that have to be travelled. There have been many increased mail services in variousparts of my electorate, and, I presume, in other electorates, but there are many places still not served with mail deliveries. We realize that mail services to those places would not pay, but the Postmaster-General's Department is expected to provide them with a. service without expecting a full return. The settlers outback may not compensate the department directly for mail services, but they pay in other ways, by producing the wool', wheat and other primary products that create our national income.. The sparsely settled districts in the inland demand a far more liberal service and far more sympathetic consideration from the Postmaster-General. I am not speaking in. a condemnatory way, for I am grateful for the excellent services that the department gives. I agree with what: the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) said about airmail services. Perhaps the Postmaster-General's Department will be able to subsidize the Flying Doctor service so. that it may deliver mail along the routes of the service. Every flying route ought to be exploited in order to give a better service to the people in the inland. 908 KDA Wilmot 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE '.- 1 support the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke) in complimenting the Postmaster-General (Senator Cameron) and his department for the three-to-five-year programme in which they expect to spend £30,000,000 in extending postal and allied services throughout the Commonwealth. The ultimate expenditure will depend, of: course, on the availability of raw materials, and it may Tie seven years before the programme can be completed. I gather from the annual report of the Postmaster-General's Department that there has been a tremendous demand for mail services, telephone services and other associated services throughout the Commonwealth. Between June, 1939/ and June, 1947, there was a 40.51 per cent, increase of ' telephone installations in capital cities and a 30.6 per cent, increase in country districts. In spite of those great increases, there are 107,472 applications for telephones still outstanding. Over the last five years 74,202 new telephones have been installed every year in the Commonwealth. That is an outstanding performance, considering that for most of that time we were at war and the manufacture of telephone equipment for civil use was difficult. On page 159 of the Estimates provision is made for the expenditure in Tasmania of £71,S81 more than last year for stores and material, £18,348 more for mail services and .£26,010 more for engineering services other than new works, a total of £116,239, which is indeed a commendable aim. We appreciate those plans for extension of postal and telephonic facilities in Tasmania. In the last two years various aspects of telephone services affecting country residents have been reviewed and more generous conditions introduced. Conditions under which exchange services are provided were liberalized in October, 1945, to provide that where the department has no existing construction along a public road in the direction of the applicant's home and where only one exchange service is concerned, the department will erect at its own cost a new pole line for a distance of 60 chains. Up to £100 will be spent for the service where a departmental line is already available for all or part of the distance and more than one exchange service is required. Before October, 1945, the department allowed only £50 to be spent on the provision of such a service. The amount now is exactly double. 909 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - But that does not mean twice as good a service. 909 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - It may not, but a longer line can be erected. 909 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - That is not quite the case. The cost of raw materials and wages has risen. 909 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - Where people live a greater distance from the exchange and have to lease long lines, substantial reductions were made from the 1st January, 1946, of the extra mileage charges that are applied to the departmental section of lines extending beyond two miles radially from the relevant exchanges. Originally the rate in rural areas was 7s. 6d. a quarter mile a year for the section of the departmental line extending beyond the two-mile boundary. The rate for each quarter-mile has been reduced to 6s. 3d. for any section between two and three miles from the exchange, to 5s. for any section between three and four miles from the exchange, to 3s. 9d. for any section between four and five miles from the exchange and 2s. 6d. for any section beyond five miles. In November, 1946, with the object of extending such facilities to rural centres under the most favorable terms practicable, the Department extended the trunk-line .service to new localities wholly at its expense, except where the cost is out of all proportion to the probable revenue. People affected by the exception are asked to co-operate in the construction of the line so that the capital expenditure to be borne by the department shall be reduced. There are many localities of that character in Tasmania and I daresay that there are a great number more in the larger States. Near the town of Cressy, in my electorate, there is a group of four farmers who will be placed at a disadvantage by that provision. They will be required to provide between £200 and £300 if they are to have the telephone installed in their homes, which are beyond the 5 miles 18 chains limit laid down by the department. I think the Postmaster-General might well re-examine that provision, for many farmers a long way from exchanges will be penalized if it is not modified, as I think it could be in view of the credit balance in the accounts of the department. The farmers whom I have particularly in mind cannot afford the outlay required by the department and have turned down the proposal. There must be many others like them, but not sufficient to involve the department in undue expenditure. The department has determined that the daily period of service available at telephone exchanges shall be increased at more than 2,000 exchanges. I have been told in a letter from the department that the automatic exchange system in country districts is being extended, and that 500 automatic exchanges will be established in isolated areas. In that regard I have received great assistance in the Wilmot electorate from the Postmaster-General. Three automatic exchanges have been promised for isolated areas in my electorate and I am sure that others will be forthcoming as the occasion arises. Since the end of the war, the department has installed more than 500 additional trunk lines and plans are being carried out for the provision of a further 2,000 channels, the majority of which will serve rural areas. I again thank the department for its help in Wilmot. Other lines have been promised from small country towns in Tasmania to Hobart or Launceston. They will greatly relieve the pressure on existing lines. In addition, experiments are proceeding with a view to determining the extent to which radio-telephone facilities can be provided in remote localities where, on account of cost, it is impracticable to provide the ordinary land-line facilities. To illustrate how this would work out, a base transmitting and receiving station would be established at a suitable centre connecting to the main trunk system. Trans-receivers would be installed in subscribers' premises within a range of approximately 200 miles at places not connected by land-line with the trunk line network. Through these facilities the public would be provided with access to the whole telephone system of the Commonwealth. I commend the department for such a progressive plan and the installation of radio telephone facilities. The department has made strenuous efforts to obtain equipment, particularly magnetic telephones, wires and insulators, and I believe that the Postmaster-General speaks sincerely when he consistently explains that the shortage of these requirements presents very great difficulties. The Postmaster-General informed me that the output from the department's workshops has increased, and imports from the United States of America have been accelerated. In spite of these difficulties, and this is important as revealing the grand work that the department is doing, it has installed in the country districts of Tasmania during the twelve 'months ended the 30th June last, 976 subscriber lines and 1,275 telephone instruments compared with 710 subscriber lines and 907 telephones in the year 1938-39. This increase was achieved despite the serious shortage of materials last year. Of course, materials were not in short supply in 1938-39. The Non-official Postmasters Association has succeeded in obtaining for its 7,000 members throughout Australia an increase of remuneration amounting to £250,000 a year. 910 K2A 0 0 RANKIN, George Mr Rankin - The increase was long overdue. 910 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - I agree. I raised this subject last year when we were considering the Estimates. Many honorable members opposite know that non-official postmasters in their electorates are rendering a splendid service to farmers and others residing in isolated areas. The amount of the increase is from £13 to £22 a year. In terms of money, that is not large, but, at least, it is an advance. Here, I desire to pay a tribute to the Postmaster-General for his progressive policy, which he has impressed upon his officers in the capital cities. I also compliment postmasters and their staffs who, during the war, performed as fine a service as any section of the Public Service. All kinds of jobs were loaded on to them, and they did their work cheerfully and courteously, and showed every consideration to customers. I am indeed proud of the officers of the Postmaster-General's Department, and I wish the Postmaster-General himself every success with his plans for the future. 910 JWT Moreton 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS .- Honorable members are expected to dissect the estimates for the Postmaster-General's Department for the current financial year, although the latest report available to them is for the year 1944-45. In other words, we have not received the reports for the years 1945-46, or 1946-47. I suppose that the report for 1947-48 will be similarly delayed. 911 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Had it not been for printing difficulties, I should have been able to present to the chamber the report for 1945-46 before we proceeded to consider these estimates. 911 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - I realize that the printing of these reports is a difficulty, but I impress on the Minister representing the Postmaster-General that the report itself could be laid on the table, so that honorable members could peruse it. It is difficult for us to consider the finances of the department, particularly when it is making extraordinary profits, without the assistance of this document. If, next year, we are obliged to base our calculations on the report for 1945-46, we shall conclude that more than printing difficulties are to blame. The Minister will have to give a better explanation than that. The Auditor-General has to examine these reports, and, as I stated, they could be laid upon the table or placed in the custody of the Clerk of the House, who could make them available to all honorable members interested. In that way, we could carefully scrutinize revenue and expenditure. The revenues of the Postmaster-General's Department are bounding higher and higher, and its profits are soaring, yet the wartime surcharge of one halfpenny has been retained. For a long time, Australia boasted that it possessed penny postage. To-day, the letter rate of 2½d. is unnecessarily high. The Minister will not be able to justify it when I disclose the high earnings of the department - Those figures show a progressive increase of revenue, but in spite of those earnings, the wartime surcharge of one halfpenny is still retained. 911 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The department is also spending its earnings. 911 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - I shall deal with expenditure if time permits, but I do not desire to prolong this debate. However, if the Minister asks questions, I have the data and shall reply to him. Repeatedly, I have made representations for the abolition of the surcharge of the halfpenny. Not a year has passed without my appealing to the Government to abandon it. Why does the Government retain this war-time surcharge more than two years after the cessation of hostilities? The department is piling up colossal surpluses, as the following table shows : - In five years, a profit exceeding £25,000,000 has been made, yet the Government has the audacity to retain the surcharge. 911 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr Duthie - Does the honorable member consider that the department should not make a profit? 911 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - The honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Duthie) read extracts from a document which he obtained from the Postmaster-General (Senator Cameron) and which had no bearing on this debate, but I did not interrupt him. I believe that every department should balance its budget, and I do not consider that a department should waste more than £25,000,000 in five years. 911 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The department is not wasting the money. 911 JYV 0 0 FULLER, Arthur Mr Fuller - Does not the honorable member consider that the department needs it? 911 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - With the nationalization of banking, the Government will meet its commitments only if it takes all the money that everybody possesses. 911 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The Postal Department is nationalized. 911 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - It is a public utility. 911 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - So are the banks. 911 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! 912 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - I am prepared to answer all the Minister's questions on the nationalization of banking if the Chairman will permit me to d'o so. If the Minister is in order in making these interjections, I should be in order- inreplying to them. In the- period 1941-42'- to 1945-46 the department made a profit exceeding £25,000>000. What profits it made during the last three years we do> not know: 912 JYV 0 0 FULLER, Arthur Mr Fuller - We shall' need all the money. 912 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - These high profits are unnecessary, and if they continue, the Minister must justify them to the public, who- are demanding a reduction of postage rates. War-time imposts on industry should be removed. The war-time surcharge of one halfpenny represents an unwarranted burden on industry. I ask the Minister to. inform me when, it will De: removed ? 912 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Not during, this financial year. 912 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - There is no reason why it should not. I hope that the Minister will reconsider- his statement, and point out to the Postmaster-General that these high postal rates- are imposing a burden on trade, commerce- and industry and the community generally. This Government is highly irresponsible in the matter of taxation. It extracts more- and more from the community, and wastes the money on socialist enterprises. I appeal to the Government to have some regard for trade,, commerce and industry and the community generally by reducing these, charges: The Postmaster-General's Department is not able to meet approximately 500,000 applications for telephones, and I believe that the number would be nearer 1,000,000 if all the people who need telephones applied for them. Many people have refrained from doing so because they know that it would be- futile. On previous occasions, I pointed out that people had paid to the department deposits of £3, £4, or £5 with their applica-tions for the installation of a telephone. Even after a long delay, the instruments were not installed. As the result of my representations, the department refunded these deposits. 912 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The money was returned before the honorable member made represenations. 912 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr FRANCIS - It was: not. I also urge the Minister to give assistance and encouragement to the- highly efficient and competent technical staff of the depart,went; which is endeavouring to. meet the demands for- telephones' in. the community. The experts- are. " eating; their hearts out " because they do not receive the: encouragement and assistance which they deserve. This matter should' not Be left to chance. The. problem, should be tackled boldly, and the world should Be combed for telephones. Many of the materials required for telephone services are in. short supply because of interminable, industrial disputes which, this Government cannot control. I. urge the Minister to reflect on these matters,, and endeavour,, by concentrated effort rather than talk,, to- overcome the problems., The Postmaster-General himself has aggravated, the position by saying, that it is Ms wish, that everybody in Australia, shall have a telephone in his own home at a nominal rental. That statement,, made at the time when more than 500,000 persons are waiting for telephones, is all " hooey ". The Postmaster-General should keep hismouth closed and stop talking such claptrap,, which only annoys the public. His inane and. silly statements must frequently amaze- the officers of his department. 912 KRI Boothby 0 0 SHEEHY, Thomas Mr SHEEHY .- I notice that the vote for trunk-line telephone services in South Australia is less than the amount expended for this purpose last year. Although we have trunk line facilities available, at central post-offices and >in some other centres this facility should bc made available to people in less thickly populated areas. 1 hope, therefore, that the reduction of expenditure which is indicated in these Estimates wall not rob any of the people of South'. Australia of this) amenity. While I was in. Sydney last week; I was pleased: to see. the fine type of telephone instruments being manufactured, by Amalgamated. Wireless, (Australasia) Limited. I was. also informed that the instruments were being produced, at. a relatively low cost for such highClass products. I' understand1 that a part of the trouble being encountered in extending telephone services is due to the difficulty of obtaining' exchange equipment. Could inquiries be made as to -whether Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited could manufacture this equipment ? 913 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - The Postmaster-General's Department in Melbourne produces a considerable amount of the equipment required for a telephone exchange. 913 KRI 0 0 SHEEHY, Thomas Mr SHEEHY - I am glad to hear it. I wish to pay tribute to the fine work which was done in South Australia by Mr. J. Adamson, who was transferred some time ago from Queensland to South Australia. It was- with very deep regret that I learned of his death through illness, and on behalf of the South Australian representatives in this Parliament [ extend deep sympathy to his bereaved family. I pay tribute to the excellent work that is being done by non-official postmasters throughout the country and I hope that this service also will be extended. I trust that some of the accumulated surpluses being held- by the Postmaster-General's Department will be used for the purchase of post office sites in areas which are rapidly becoming more thickly settled. I have in mind certain localities in my own electorate where big housing schemes are in process of completion by the South Australian Housing Trust and the War Service Homes Department. The Postmaster-General's Department should take care to acquire suitable sites for post offices in these areas, so that, when housing needs are being more adequately met new post offices may he- built Ifr. BLAIN (Northern Territory) [10.20] . - I join issue with the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke) concerning the condition of Commonwealth railways'. The honorable gentleman saw fit to eulogize the authorities, but it is plain t'o me that he cannot have travelled on any Commonwealth .railways- other than the' Trans-Australian line. The fact is, of course, that practically all the fund's available for' expenditure tin Commonwealth, railways have been devoted to the improvement- of the railway from Port Augusta- to "Kalgoorlie'. This 'has meant that no funds have been available- to improve the Quorn to Alice Springs line or the line that runs 320 miles south from Darwin. The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner has apparently devoted all his attention to providing a luxury line from Perth to Adelaide in order to make a good impression on overseas visitors and members of parliament who use the railway. There was something " fishy " about the way the accounts were stated in connexion with work done on that line ten years or so ago. If the charges have been . properly allocated I am informed that the job would have cost about £70 a sleeper. To put the matter briefly, money was filched from- other Commonwealth railway lines in order to make easy travelling possible for the plutocrats who use the Trans-Australian line. We all know that there was practically a revolt among' senior officers of the Commonwealth railway service about ten years ago over the signing of railway accounts. The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner demanded that certain accounts should be signed, and the officers concerned took objection to his- orders. The result was that subsequently many of those officers' were " crucified ",. and pushed off to less attractive' positions: 913 K9G 0 0 JOHNSON, Herbert Mr Johnson - That was while a Nationalist government was' in office. 913 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - I am- not: concerned about that point. I consider that the Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) should take final responsibility for the management of Commonwealth railways and that the Commonwealth Railways Commissioner should be divested of the plenary powers, which he at present possesses. The old- saying that- Minister's come and. Ministers go but permanent administration goes on, is,, to my way of thinking,, no reason for vesting plenary powers in the Commonwealth Railway* Commissioner.. Ministers- should' accept the full responsibility of their office, and they should be responsible- to- the* Parlia-ment for their- administration. In particular, the Minister for Transport should be responsible for the. control and management of Commonwealth railways. I protest strongly against the manner in which Commonwealth railways' other than the Trans-Australian 'line are neglected. I have been trying for ten or fifteen years to get the. government to install a bath on the railway from Quorn to Alice Springs. During that three days' journey women passengers are unable to have a bath, and that is almost intolerable. Facilities for baths on the railway should be provided at least for women, even if the male passengers have to wait another ten years for such amenities. The permanent way of the line from Quorn to Alice Springs is in a disgraceful condition. The side grades have almost disappeared, owing to soil erosion. In fact the line can only be described now as a tramway. I have been informed that it was most fortunate that no floods occurred during the war years, otherwise traffic on the line would have been even more difficult than it was. In February of last year when I was travelling on the line ten inches of rain fell and a journey which should have taken three days took ten days. I should be glad if the Minister would make a. statement of government policy in regard to the rumour that it is proposed to extend the railway from Alice Springs to Tennant Creek, 320 miles north of the present terminus: Is it intended that the line should be so extended ? It is important also that steps should be taken to shift the cattle trucking yards from their present site at Alice Springs. The town has developed as far as it can develop in that direction under present conditions, and it has also extended as far as possible to the east. The people would dike to see an extension westwards, but this would involve the removal of the cattle trucking yards a mile and a half from where they now are. When work is undertaken on the proposed Tennant Creek extension the Government should also provide a second cattle trucking yard sixteen miles north in order to make it unnecessary for the cattle to be brought right through the stony areas of the MacDonnell Ranges in order to be trucked. Will the Minister inform me whether a survey has been made, or whether departmental officers have been instructed to make a survey of a line to Tennant Creek, and, if so, whether provision will be- made for cattle trucking yards sixteen miles north of Alice Springs? The rolling stock that is being used on the railway from Darwin is also most unsatisfactory. Sand is being railed from the Adelaide River to Darwin for brick making but those who have to fill the trucks are required to scrounge round for sheets of old galvanized iron to put on the floor of the. trucks in order to stop all the sand from seeping through the big cracks in the trucks before it can reach its destination. I refer to an item on page 141 of the Estimates under which travelling concessions are made available to ex-service personnel in special circumstances. Surely it is not unreasonable to expect that old soldiers in the Northern Territory should enjoy the same facilities in this regard as ex-servicemen in South Australia and other States. I have in mind one ex-serviceman who needs to go to Adelaide for tubercular treatment. Surely he should be able to obtain travelling concessions. Another old soldier that I know wishes to travel 320 miles south in order to visit friends, but he cannot afford the full fare. I ask the Minist.fr to indicate whether the Australian Government intends to grant rail concessions to such individuals, seeing that they arp available on State railways. In the samp division, there is an amount of £500 to meet travel concessions on Commonwealth railways in connexion with the Australian and New Zealand Association for the Advancement of Science. That is most worthy. I attended the science congress that was held in Canberra in 1938, and heard some of the finest scientific lectures by scientists who had gathered here from all over the world, including one by the late H. G. Wells. Last year, a grant of £100 was made to Mr. Inigo Jones for meteorological research. A similar grant is not to be made this year. That decision should be reviewed, because of the remarkable work that is being done by that gentleman. I have visited his observatory. He has Dr. Jensen engaged on mathematical work in connexion with his observations. The primary producers of the Darling Downs are guided by the weather charts that he publishes, in the planting of their crops. I am amazed that the Government has seen fit to withhold a grant from him this year, and urge it to make one, not of £100 but of £500, in order to assist him in his meteorological research work. I come now to the estimates of the Postmaster-General's Department, with particular reference to the provision of telephone facilities in outlying areas. For many years, I have been trying to persuade the department to tap the copper overland telegraph line from Darwin to Alice Springs, so as to assist small pastoralists in North Australia. I have in mind particularly a man who is 30 miles south of Tennant Creek. His name is Fred Harris. He was a lineman in the employ of the department, which he left to take up a small cattle property about five miles off the overland telegraph line. He has three children, one of whom is studying for the intermediate certificate at the High School at Alice Springs, and the youngest of whom is only twelve months old. He has guaranteed that he would provide the necessary poles, and do all the labouring work. The departmental inspectors apparently try to make good fellows of themselves by keeping down expenditure although the department is making a profit of £3,000,000 s year. The wife of this man is fretting because, during the absences of her husband on the cattle station, she has no means of obtaining medical assistance in the event of illness. Being a cattle dealer, people wish to contact him in connexion with sales. 915 KGX 0 0 HAYLEN, Leslie Mr Haylen - Is there not a pedal wireless ? 915 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - No. Any anthropologist who wants to run a telephone line for a distance of 30 miles to facilitate his work, can secure one. The technical objection is raised that the tapping of the copper wire .would interfere with the service. I contest that. I am amazed that the Postmaster-General should act on the reports of inspectors who are merely making good fellows of themselves. I urge him to accede to any legitimate request by a pioneer. The honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Haylen) has mentioned the pedal wireless. I have received this letter from a man about 600 miles north-west of Alice Springs, in one of the most isolated areas of the Northern Territory - A matter which I would like you to investigate is that of charges for telegrams to and from pedal radio stations. When Mr. A. G. Cameron was representing you I wrote him on this subject, and he had some communication with the Postmaster-General on the 8 matter. I am enclosing herewith a reply to Mr. Cameron from the Postmaster-General. As you know, the charge is 2e. for every telegram of sixteen words or less, and lid. for every word over sixteen. These telegraphic charges I find, are generally to many people who have pedal radios, a heavy item of expenditure. In my own case I find this to be so. At times, in these isolated areas, one has to do a considerable amount of business by telegram. I understand all telegrams to and from pedal radio stations go at urgent rates. However, I think one should be given the option of sending the telegram either ordinary or urgent rate. For instance, I ana connected with the Alice Springs Flying Doctor Base, and if I transmit a telegram to the operator there, addressed to a person in the town, the post office merely date stamps the form and either delivers or places the telegram in a post office box. There is no use of post office telegraphic equipment for such a telegram. For sixteen words this telegram costs 2s. and if over, lid. for each additional word. I know the Flying Doctor service gets a certain amount for each telegram, which I do not begrudge them, but 1 think the Government could easily lower its share. Private individuals have to pay up to £200 to install a " Transceiver " radio, and the high cost of the telegrams is a very real item in their expenditure. If mail services were more frequent there wouldn't be such need ito resort to telegrams, but in our case here, as in many other parts of the Northern Territory, our mail is a fortnightly service. I hope you will make some inquiries into this matter. I would be particularly interested to know what amount the Flying Doctor Service receives for each inward and outward telegram. I do not expect the Postmaster-General to realize what vast distances there are in the Northern Territory. On that point, the Minister for the Interior is competent to advise him. 915 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Has the honorable member made any representations to the Postmaster-General ? 915 JPT 0 0 BLAIN, Adair Mr BLAIN - Oh yes, continually. I have said, and I repeat, that he is dominated by the inspectors. For thirteen years, my efforts to have something done have been frustrated by those officers. The Postmaster-General considers that he has done his duty when he signs correspondence, which I presume he does not read. The honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) has argued that the provision of post office buildings should be the responsibility of the Postmaster-General's Department. In Darwin, they are the responsibility of the Department of Works and Housing. At one time, they were provided by the Department of the Interior. I have received this letter in connexion with the reconstruction of the Darwin post office, from a young man who wishes to have his identity remain (unknown- Mr. Weedon, a former builder and contractor., offered to do the conversion in six weeks at a maximum cost of £3,000. Six months later the Works and Housing1 Department employees doddered out of the building, and it was converted. I challenge Senator Cameron to give the House the cost to his department for that job. Furthermore, I state that when , the Works and Housing departmental chiefs finally saw the total cost they didn't have the guts to hand the bill to the Postal Department. Various estimates by competent private contractors in private conversation figure £15,000 as the lowest possible amount at which it could have been done. The Minister should produce that account, and I expect it to be nearer £2.5,'000 than £15,000. I am complaining of. the waste of money by the crystal.gazers in the Department of Works and Housing. The letter continues - After finishing the Post Office the Department of Works and Housing started to remove four buildings, huts to be specific, from Berrimah, eight miles away, and to re-erect them in town. That was twelve months ago. They look like staggering under the load for a further six months. They arc future Naval Barracks, and would the Minister for the Navy or the Minister who owns the Works and Housing Department, be courageous enough to come forward with the cost of this operation to date. If they don't feel like doing so, I will do it for them. Just a mere £25,000. There are quite a number of items T could detail, but my feelings might cause me to say more than I should. Mr. Blain, it would please me if this letter could be read to the House. However it is your right to do or say what you wish in the matter. The Minister for the Interior 'has seen for himself the waste that is going on in the Northern Territory, and I ask him, in co-operation with his colleague the Minister for Works and Housing (Mr. Lemmon), to ensure that private contractors are allowed to operate there. A committee should be appointed with the Administrator as chairman to supervise development. At present, we know that no notice is taken of those who .criticize wasteful expenditure. 916 K9G Kalgoorlie ALP Minister for the Interior 1 0 JOHNSON, Herbert Mr JOHNSON . - The honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke) mentioned the improved amenities which have been provided by this Government for those employed by the Commonwealth Railways Department. I had agitated for the provision of those amenities long before I expected to enter this Parliament. I do not know of any other group of workers in Australia who had to live under such disgraceful conditions for so long a time as had the Commonwealth railways employees on the Trans-Australian line. Previous governments had made no attempt to improve conditions. This was done only with the advent of a Labour Government. -Conditions now are comparable with those in any other part of Australia. Work has so far progressed that a considerable proportion of the employees are now comfortably housed, and have refrigerators in their homes. The train from Kalgoorlie and Port Augusta is recognized as probably the best in Australia. The honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Blain) complained of travelling conditions between Quorn and Alice Springs. There is some justification for his complaints, and I have already instructed the Commonwealth Railways Commissioner to investigate conditions in the hope that the service will be brought into line with that between Kalgoorlie and Port Augusta. The honorable member also complained of the condition of the track, and I agree that the track is not as we should like it to be. During the war, the railway from Quorn to Alice Springs was called upon to render very heavy service. Because of the shortage of labour and materials, it has not been possible to repair the track properly. However, through the good offices of the Minister for Immigration (Mr Calwell), it has been arranged to bring out 500 men to work on Commonwealth railways., and it is hoped that before long conditions will be greatly improved. While I was in Alice Springs recently, a deputation waited upon me to urge the removal of the trucking yards .to a more distant site. I inspected the proposed site, and I am convinced that the yards should be removed. The people of Alice Springs cannot be expected to tolerate the presence of the yards so close to the town, but I remind honorable members that all these big undertakings cannot be put in hand at once, having regard for the shortage of labour, and the urgency of other work. However, I assure the honorable member that the yards will be removed. I regret that the Minister for "Works and Housing (Mr. Lemmon) is not present to answer the criticism of the honorable member for the Northern Territory regarding the works programme at Darwin. I am sure that he could have answered it most effectively. Honorable members should realize that the rebuilding of Darwin is a colossal task. Because of Darwin's geographical position we have been faced, not only with all the ordinary problems arising out of the shortage of labour and materials, but also with particular problems caused by transport difficulties. The honorable member is forever criticizing the new town plan. I think he wants to restore the old tin-hut town. The Government is determined to build a town at Darwin of which Australia can be proud. If that takes a year or two longer than we might like, the Government will nevertheless proceed so that when overseas visitors first land in Australia at Darwin they will receive a favorable impression of Australia. I do not want to trespass on the time of the committee and I want to give other honorable members an opportunity to speak. I remind the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt)., who appears to be resentful that I have spoken in this debate, that I have taken very little time. I am justified in replying to the criticisms that have been levelled at my department by the honorable member for the Northern Territory. I do not regard his comparison between conditions on trains travelling between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie and between Quorn and Alice Springs as a fair criticism. However, I assure him that conditions on the Quorn-Alice Springs trains will be improved in the near future and raised to a standard as near as possible to that of other trains. 917 KHY Calare 0 0 HOWSE, John Mr HOWSE .- I address my remarks to the Postmaster-General's Department, with particular reference to country telephone services. I ask the Minister representing the Postmaster-General to state the policy of the Government in relation to country telephone services and to announce what priority is granted to applicants for telephones who live in rural areas. Country residents are in the dark as to their priority rights. I do not criticize the Deputy Director of Posts and Telegraphs in New South Wales or his staff. I have found them to be courteous and helpful, and I believe that everybody recognizes that they are doing a splendid job. Many country residents want telephones not as a luxury but as a matter of urgency. Telephones are often necessary in outback localities. Farms are often widely scattered and communication services are bad so that people are obliged to depend on telephones not only as a means of keeping in touch with their friends but also for use in emergencies. With the recent further restrictions on petrol supplies, they will be even more dependent than previously on telephone communications. For many country people, telephones should be regarded as essential. During my short experience as a member of this Parliament I have dealt with many applications for telephones. The cases presented by the applicants in support of their claims are often very distressing. Some of them have no means of transport although they live many miles from a township. Many of them have young families. Some have wives who expect to require medical attention and are afraid to leave them alone without means of sending for help should they need it. Others who suffer are ex-servicemen who have newly settled or returned to the land after war service. Existing party telephone lines are overloaded to an absurd degree. In some instances, as many as thirteen subscribers are connected to one party circuit although the policy of the department is to restrict the number to six. In view of the profits made by the Postmaster-General's Department, applications for telephone services should not be viewed in a mercenary light. The policy should not be to ask: " Will this particular line pay? ". I remind honorable members that every telephone call made by these people is a trunk-line call. They cannot simply pick up an instrument and make a twopenny call as city .residents can do. For this reason, the telephone bills of those who are fortunate enough to have instruments are fairly heavy. In view of all these circumstances, the department should not allocate telephones according to the probability of making a profit from their use. God knows, it is difficult enough to keep these people in the country areas ! The best people are leaving, and we should give them every encouragement to stay. Here, surely, is an instance in which the Government could afford to pay small subsidies ! In view of the conditions under which country people live, the Government should say to them, " We are glad that you are there. You are doing a good job and we are going to provide you with every amenity and every facility that will encourage you to stay where you are". My second point in relation to the Postmaster-General's Department also affects country residents. I refer to mail services provided by service cars. Many mail cars are operated at a loss because they have to travel great distances in order to visit only a few homesteads. However, there are many children at these places and they are too far away from towns to be able to attend schools. The only way in which they can be educated is by means of correspondence courses, and for this system to be efficient, mail services must be provided regularly. I hope that the Government will announce the priority system according to which telephones are allocated to applicants in the country, and I appeal to it to disregard the mercenary attitude which I have mentioned. It can well afford to subsidize country telephone services. 918 KZX Brisbane 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON . - I rise to speak about a matter affecting the Postmaster-General's Department. Many years have elapsed since I rose in this chamber to prevail upon the then government to proceed with the erection of a new general post office in Brisbane. In those days, the conditions under which employees at the Brisbane post office worked were, as I repeatedly declared, disgraceful. The structure was nothing more or less than a hovel. I continued my advocacy for the erection of a new building for a number of years until, in 1939, the then Postmaster-General, the present honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) visited Brisbane and saw for himself not only the disgraceful building that we still see there to-day, but also the shameful conditions under which employees had to work. He was good enough to make provision in the next Estimates for the Postmaster-General's Department for an amount of £50,000 for the commencement of a new building. Unfortunately, the war broke out, and the money provided was diverted to war purposes. I fully agree with that diversion. During the war period, I did not press the matter, but now that conditions are improving, I again raise it for consideration. I congratulate the former Postmaster-General (Senator Ashley), and the present occupant of that office, Senator Cameron, for their splendid work in the department. Both have been responsible for many improvements of a permanent nature to the existing building. Recently the Postmaster-General visited Brisbane for the purpose of opening the new cafeteria, one of the many amenities provided by the Labour Government. I attended the opening function, at which were present many hundreds of postal employees. The Postmaster-General indicated to those present that the cafeteria was but the first instalment of the many improvements that the Government intended to make. The cafeteria is a great boon to the people employed in the building. I am pleased to know so many permanent improvements are being provided, and I congratulate and tender my sincere thanks to those responsible for them. The honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) blamed the Government for the shortage of telephone equipment which, he said, was due mainly to industrial disputes. 918 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - I was referring to raw material for the equipment. 918 KZX 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON - Each week as many representations are made to me in the electorate of Brisbane as are made to any other honorable member from Queensland in respect of telephone installations. I have thoroughly investigated this matter, and ascertained that the shortage is caused not by industrial disputes in Australia but by the scarcity of imported equipment. I am satisfied that the Postmaster-General is as anxious to overcome the lag in telephone installations as is the honorable member for Moreton. 919 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - The position is getting worse each month. 919 BV8 ALP 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - That is not true, and the honorable member knows it. 919 KZX 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON - The receipts of the Postmaster-General's Department showed an increase during the last financial year, but expenditure has also increased. The Postmaster-General has no desire to accumulate huge profits; he expends a great portion of the revenue on the provision of improvements in the interests of the people and his staff. The installation of telephones has been delayed because of the shortage of table and desk equipment which is imported and not because of the shortage of cables which are locally made. Many hundreds of my constituents find themselves unable to obtain telephone services. 919 JWT 0 0 FRANCIS, Josiah Mr Francis - If the honorable member is satisfied with the position I certainly am not. 919 KZX 0 0 LAWSON, George Mr GEORGE LAWSON - I am not satisfied with it, but I realize that the Government is doing its best in very difficult circumstances. If the Government of which the honorable member for Moreton was a member had carried out its task efficiently there would not be the shortage of telephone equipment that exists to-day. Responsibility for that shortage does not rest with the present Government. Whilst I have not been successful with many of the representations that I have made to the Postmaster-General, I have at least succeeded in having some improvements carried out in my own electorate. For instance, during the last twelve months, as the result of my representations, at least three non-official post offices have been established there. As the result of the energy and work of the Postmaster-General, the residents of Toowong, a big centre in the Brisbane electorate, will in the near future have an automatic exchange in place of the obsolete manual exchange. The date of completion of the automatic exchange will depend upon the availability of imported equipment. Compared with the Estimates for 1946-47, the vote for the Postmaster-General's Department for this year shows an increase of £385,000. The Postmaster-General has promised the people of Brisbane that no time will be lost in making preparation for the construction of a new general post office in Brisbane in keeping with the importance and architectural excellence of the city. I am unable to ascertain whether any amount has been provided on the Estimates for that purpose. No specific mention has been made of that project. I trust that at least some provision is included in the Works Estimates for the commencement of the first portion of the new building. I ask the Minister representing the Postmaster-General to consider this matter. 919 KWP Wimmera 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr TURNBULL . - I wish to record my appreciation of the unfailing courtesy extended to me by the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell) who represents the Postmaster-General in this chamber. Since I have been a member of this Parliament he has treated me with every consideration. With the concurrence of the committee I incorporate in Hansard the following letter from the Tresco Progress Association which deals, amongst other things, with the mail service provided for Tresco and ask that the Postmaster-General make investigations with a view of improving the service : - TRESCO PROGRESS ASSOCIATION 12th October, 1947. Mr. W. Turnbull, M.H.R., Canberra Dear Sir, I have been instructed by the above association to write you re the postal services which we had to put up with in Tresco and all smaller townships north of Bendigo for many months past. On Tuesdays and Thursdays we get neither mail or papers owing to the railways not getting enough coal to run a daily service on this line. With the present taxes and surcharge on letters we consider it the duty of the Government to see that we people in the smaller townships have at least a daily mail service which with other restrictions are making people in country districts very discontented and causing producers grave concern, as young people will not stay in the country owing to lack of amenities which the townspeople enjoy. Furthermore we understand the Victorian Railway Commissioner's contract for cartage of mails on a daily basis, and we consider they should provide a daily mail service to small centres as well as the larger towns and we request you to do your utmost to see that we set our daily mail service restored. Thanking you in anticipation, I am, yours truly, william Crowe, Secretary. I wish to make a brief reference to the recent statement of the Postmaster-General (Senator Cameron) that he may arrange for the carriage of mail by air wherever possible. That is most commendable. As an. example of the advantage of air carriage of mail matter over surface carriage I need only mention that recently it required just as long to carry a newspaper by ordinary mail from Mildura to Melbourne as it did to transmit a letter by air from London to Melbourne. Some time ago the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Bowden) made a request to the Government, which I supported, for the creation of a special fund for the installation of telephone facilities in isolated areas. I should like to be informed of the present position in regard to that proposal. I appreciate the change which is being made in the carriage of mails by road instead of by rail. The Victorian train services do not always operate at convenient periods. The road service, on the other hand, is adequate for the conveyance of mails, and as much mail matter as possible should be carried by road. I pay tribute to the courteous and efficient treatment which I have received from the Postal Department. My written representations to that department have been answered promptly, and the department has provided some valuable services and extended others in my electorate. Of course, I am looking forward to further favours, because 2½d. is a lot to pay for postage on a letter. If the department will notreduce its postal charges it has, at least, an obligation to provide the best possible service. 920 BV8 Melbourne ALP Minister for Information and Minister for Immigration 1 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL . - I have insufficient time to reply to all the representations made by honorable members, but I assure them that the Postmaster-General ( Senator Cameron) and his officers will consider their representations, and letters will he forwarded to the honorable members concerned on the matters each one has raised. I thank the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Turnbull) for the complimentary references to me and I shall convey his expressions of appreciation of the services of the Postal Department to the Postmaster-General. Consideration will be givento the matters raised by the honorable members for Boothby (Mr. Sheehy), Perth (Mr. Burke), Brisbane (Mr. George Lawson), Wilmot (Mr. Duthie) Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) and Calare (Mr. Howse). I have already informed the honorable member for Calare that 58,000 telephones have been installed in country areas since the war and 116,000 in metropolitan areas. However, I point out to the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis), who advocates a reduction of the postal charge from 2½d. to 2d., that he is ill advised to press his request if he really desires to have telephones provided in country areas. He cannot have it both ways. One thing which is obvious, however, and which has not been mentioned, is the present prosperity of the country. Most of the people who are now seeking the installation of telephones could not. afford them in other days. However, the Government will do its best to supply those telephones and to maintain the condition of prosperity which has produced the demand for such amenities. Proposed votes agreed to. Progress reported. 920 papers The following papers were presented: - Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1947. No. 142. Defence (Transitional Provisions) Act - National Security (Economic Organization ) Regulations - Order - War service land settlement - Victoria (dated 15th September, 1947). National Security (Prices) Regulations - Declaration- No.163. Orders- Nos. 3081, 3092-3097. Regulations - StatutoryRules 1947, Nos. 140, 143, 144, 145. Distillation. Act- Regulations- Statutory Rules 1947, No. 141. National Debt Sinking Fund- National Debt Commission - Twenty-fourth Annual Report, for year 1946-47. Ordered to be printed. 921 23:17:00 House adjourned at 11.17 p.m. 921 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated: - 921 921 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser r asked the Minister representing the Minister- for Trade and Customs, upon notice - Has the Government yet considered the question of clothes rationing in Australia after the 31st December next? If so,when may an official statement be expected on the subject, particularly in view of the great stock of many articles of clothing and manchester goods nowheld by retailers? 921 KYC ALP 1 0 POLLARD, Reginald Mr Pollard - The Minister for Trade and Customs has supplied the following information : - The Government has received a preliminary report from the Rationing Commission but has still to receive its final report when the commission has completed its examination of expected supplies of piece goods from overseas in the light of the dollar crisis and the likely quantities available other than from the dollar areas. On receipt of the final report, consideration will be given by the Government to the. question of clothes rationing in Australia after the 31st December next. An official announcement will be made as soon as practicable. 921 921 KNX 0 0 HARRISON, Eric Mr Harrison n asked! the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction, upon notice- How many reconstruction, trainees have abandoned medical courses at Sydney University during the twelve months ended the 30thJune last, and what was their reason for doingso? What percentage does this number represent of the total reconstruction trainees undertaking the course? What are the present living and other allowances paid to such trainees and what period of their studies do they cover? What is the annual cost of their books and equipment? 921 KCF ALP 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr Dedman -The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows : - Twenty-three; Eleven transferredto other full-time courses, four considered course too difficult, three abandoned it to go overseas and two did not proceed with course for financial reasons, two accepted attractive employment and one gave no reason; Four and a half per cent. of a total of 515. The number who have abandoned the course for financial reasons represents0.38 per cent. Living allowances - £310s. per week for single man without dependants; £51s. per week for married man or single man with one adult dependant; £5 10s per week for man with wife and one or more children ; £215s. per week for single woman without dependants living athome during studies; £310s. for such single woman living away from home. Provision is made for additional allowance where a woman traineehas dependants. Addi tional allowances to trainees living away from home - Single man on£310s. receives15s. per week for first four weeks at beginning of each academic year; married man on £51s. got 30s. per week for first four weeks and 15s. per week thereafter; married man with child dependant, on £5 10s. receives 30s. per. week for full period if he lives away from home for training purposes. Other allowances - all compulsory fees are paid; book allowance is up to £10 per year and equipment allowance up to £20 per year; fares allowance of 5s. per week is paid during term; students who expend more than £3 on second-class return fares home in one vacation each year obtain refund of excess over £3 as travelling allowance. Provision has recently been made to permit, in future, portion of £10 book and £20 equipment allowances unexpended in one year to be available for necessary books and equipment in following year in addition to normal allowances for that following year. Personal living allowance is a gift for first three years and a loan for remainder of course. Remainingallowances, including dependants' allowances are gifts throughout. Normal cost of books and equipment in each year of medical course is estimatedfirst year £30, second year £25, third year £30, fourth year £30, fifth year £30,sixth year £45, total £190. 921 921 K6Q 0 0 CORSER, Bernard Mr Bernard Corser r asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice - Hashis attention been directed to an article in a Sydney morning newspaper of the 9th October, in which a former staff member of the Bcon, the British Commonwealth Occupation Force's official newspaper in Japan, alleges that Public Relations officers heavily censored news to the British Occupation Forces in Japan ? Is it a fact that, soon after Bcon started publication, the Director of Public Relations in Japan (ColonelG. S. Jenkins) issued censorship instructions that the staff of Bcon must submit all news of the British Commonwealth Occupation Forces to Public Relations before publication and that they must always present to the troops an optimistic picture of the world's news? Is it a fact that Army Public Relations officers- (a) ordered Bcon to publish a story that a sergeant had died from natural causes when, in fact, the sergeant's body had been found, hacked to pieces, in a street in Kurc; (b) instructed members of Bcon staff that they must review favorably all films shown to occupation troops, although the majority of the films were American B-class productions; (c) censored all mention of communal rioting in India, although Indians last year were the biggest single section of the British Commonwealth Occupation Forces; (d) permitted publication of Great Britain's withdrawal from India in the English section only, although Bcon published a section in Urdu, a language which most Indians understand; and (e) suppressed the facts of a strike by the crew of the Australian merchant ship River Clarence, in Japan in October, 1946. Was the policy of Army Public Relations instituted on the Minister's instructions; if not, has he taken or will he take action to rectify this state of affairs? 922 JWR ALP 1 0 CHAMBERS, Cyril Mr Chambers - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows : - Yes. Bcon is a newspaper published by the British Commonwealth Occupation Force authorities in Japan for issue to troops which comprise British, Indian, New Zealand and Australian components. The paper publishes press information supplied from all these countries and, as is the case with all newspapers, the news is edited before inclusion. Because of space limitations, the editors are compelled to exclude or abbreviate news items from the four countries concerned, and the same considerations limit controversial comment. While I was in Japan, the Bcon establishment was visited by me and the daily issues of the newspaper, which were issued at the time, appeared to me to be quite satisfactory. Copies of the newspaper are sent to me regularly from Japan and it is my view that it presents news from Australia in a fair and impartial manner. No. 922 922 KCF ALP 1 0 DEDMAN, John Mr Dedman n. - On the 9th October, the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Sheehy) asked a question concerning the shortage of socks for school children in South Australia. The Minister for Supply and Shipping has supplied the following information: - There is a shortage of school socks which are manufactured from worsted yarns, due mainly to the dearth of female labour in the spinning industry, the supplies of worsted yarn coming forward, whilst in excess of pre-war production, are not sufficient to meet the full demand for all purposes. The Government does not control the manufacture or distribution of yarn or of goods manufactured therefrom, but from inquiries made, it is evident that manufacturers and merchants are distributing the supplies coming forward equitably between the States and to the various sections of the trade concerned in accordance with pre-war practice. Victorian manufacturers specializing in the manufacture of school hose confirm that deliveries are going forward regularly to South Australia and in the case of two of the manufacturers consulted, further supplies arc going forward this week. The Government is mindful of the importance of maintaining children's clothing particularly utility types, in good supply. Although production and distribution has now reverted entirely to commercial channels, the Government is doing everything in its power to encourage production and fair distribution of these essential items.