1964-10-14 25 1 2 REPS 1881 0 1964-10-14 Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. Sir John McLeay) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 1881 miscellaneous 1881 Mr. CHIPP presented a petition from certain electors of the Commonwealth praying that in the coming financial year one million tons of Australia's wheat exports to Communist China should be diverted to India as a free gift. Petition received and read. 1881 Questions 1881 Industrial Dispute. 1881 K6V 0 0 COURTNAY, Frank Mr COURTNAY - I direct a question to the Minister for Labour and National Service. Is it true, as stated in the editorial of this morning's Melbourne "Age", that the Minister "has made it clear in Parliament that the Federal Government is anxious to see a fight to the finish" in the present dispute at the plants of General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd.? Has the Minister any power to summon the parties together in open conference? Does he propose to take action in any way in order to arrange such a conference? 1881 009MA LP 1 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - I have read the article in the Melbourne "Age" to which the honorable gentleman has referred. It is not correct to say that I would like to see a fight to the finish. 1881 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - You said that yesterday. 1881 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - That is untrue, and the Leader of the Opposition knows that it is untrue. If he likes, I will get my answer and read it out to him; but he should be capable of reading it himself. I stated in the House yesterday that in the initial stage of the dispute relating to the foundry the company was willing to negotiate. It was willing to have the claim in respect of the foundry employees settled by negotiation and conciliation. I also pointed out to the House that arbitration was open on the overall claim for £3 a week. The unions have not availed themselves of arbitration. I leave my argument at that point. The course of arbitration is still open. If the unions agree to take their claim to arbitration, they are in a position to do so. 1881 1881 JOE 0 0 BATE, Henry Mr JEFF BATE - I ask the Minister for the Army a question following the statement reported to have been made by the Prime Minister, when referring to the situation to the north of Australia, that Australia has never been at greater risk. What is the number of school cadets being trained in Australia, and is the number increasing? Have the military authorities kept the schools informed of the gravity of the situation to our north and are the school authorities co-operating as a result? Do school vocational advisers recommend to boys that they enter Duntroon and the Army? 1881 KFH LP 1 0 FORBES, Alexander Dr FORBES - The honorable gentleman has asked quite a number of questions about the school cadet corps. The current strength of the corps is approximately 40,000. This is the ceiling imposed by Government policy, but I expect that it will be gradually lifted as personnel of the Regular Army become available and as the relative priorities for the use of Regular Army manpower permit the expansion of the corps. We have had the utmost co-operation from most school authorities in the establishment of the corps. The honorable gentleman also asked whether headmasters were encouraging pupils to enter Duntroon, the Officer Cadet School and so on. We have received co-operation from many headmasters. However, I think it true to say that there are still too many headmasters and career counsellors in general who have not yet appreciated that service in the Army is a very fine career. 1881 Industrial Dispute. 1881 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - I ask the Minister for Labour and National Service a question. Is the inference to be drawn from his answers to questions yesterday about the dispute at General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd. that the Government wishes the company to make no concessions to the workers and certainly not to agree to the requests of the workers because to do so might set off another stage of inflation? Is he prepared to withdraw the statement he made yesterday that the dispute was engineered by the Communist Secretary of the Amalgamated Engineering Union and that the rest of the union leaders are following blindly behind him? Is it right to say that the employers are prepared to negotiate and the employees are not? Is it a fact that the employers are not prepared to negotiate without conditions but Mr. Monk, the President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions, has said that his body will negotiate provided no conditions are attached to the negotiations? 1882 009MA LP 1 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - The honorable gentleman asked me so many questions that it is difficult to answer all of them. 1882 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - I did not expect you to understand them. 1882 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - You asked so many questions that it is difficult to answer them all. The second question related to Mr. Carmichael of the Amalgamated Engineering Union. I did not say that he had initiated the strike. I said that he was now manipulating it or had been manipulating it up to the stage where it moved out of Victoria into South Australia. At that time the dispute became an interstate dispute and consequently came into the jurisdiction of the Australian Council of Trade Unions. That is the point I made yesterday; I adhere to it and clarify it today. As to the first part of the honorable gentleman's question - would the honorable gentleman remind me what was the first part? 1882 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Whether the company is prepared to negotiate without conditions - I think you said it was - and the union is prepared to negotiate without conditions? 1882 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - That was the last part, not the first part at all, so you have lost track of your own question. What the honorable gentleman implied in the first part of his question was: What is the position of General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd. in relation to these negotiations? The dispute is between the various unions involved and the company. At the present, it is up to those parties to decide what their respective courses of action should be. They are the parties immediately involved, and I do not think that this is a case in which direct government involvement should occur at the moment. 1882 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - My question was in these terms: Was the Minister's answer intended to convey the impression that the Government was backing G.M.H. in its refusal to negotiate with the workers? 1882 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMAHON - If the honorable gentleman now wishes that question to be answered, I reply to ft in the way in which I answered the previous question: This is a dispute between two parties - the unions on the one side and the company on the other. It involves the whole of the Australian community in the sense that the men concerned and their families - this is to be deeply regretted - are losing unnecessarily a great deal of pay and other moneys. I personally believe that the matter could be dealt with by the arbitration system. It is up to the unions to take what action is necessary, if they believe in arbitration. On this issue, the Government has not taken sides, as both the Deputy Prime Minister and I intimated yesterday. 1882 1882 KAU 0 0 GIBSON, Adrian Mr GIBSON - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Customs and Excise. Has the Minister's attention been directed to a recent article which appeared in the Hobart Press on the eve of the annual conference of Collectors of Customs and the transfer of Mr. Venning, the then Collector of Customs in Tasmania, and which suggested that Australia had a worldwide reputation as a clearing house for drug traffic and that, as a result of customs activity in mainland ports, drug smugglers are turning their attention to Tasmanian ports? Will the Minister assure the House that there has been no laxity in customs activities in Tasmanian ports, as suggested in this article, and also that Australia does not, in fact, have a worldwide reputation as a clearing house for drug traffic? 1882 JTP LP 1 0 BURY, Leslie Mr BURY - I have seen the article mentioned by the honorable member and have discussed it with the Minister for Customs and Excise. There is no truth in the suggestion that there has been any laxity by the preventive service of the Department of Customs and Excise which functions efficiently in both Tasmania and the rest of Australia. That service is at present being re-organised to make it even more efficient. We know that the consumption of illegal narcotics in Australia is extremely small. Therefore, those quantities periodically seized are probably not intended for local consumption. However, Australian ports are not on the routes between the countries where drugs are illegally produced and the countries where they are illegally consumed in large quantities, and it is therefore most unlikely that Australia would be used as a clearing house for narcotics. In short, there is no evidence whatsoever of the truth of the suggestion made in the article. 1883 1883 JAG 0 0 CREAN, Frank Mr CREAN - I wish to direct a question to the Treasurer. Will he intimate whether it is intended to introduce legislation to amend the income tax laws in the manner suggested in the report of the Commonwealth Committee on Taxation presided over by Sir George Ligertwood, particularly with reference to leases, family partnerships and trusts, and superannuation funds? If the Government intends to legislate, will the amending measures be brought in this year? 1883 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - It is intended to legislate broadly in the field covered by the report of the Ligertwood committee. I am at present waiting for the draft legislation from the Attorney-General's Department. In other words, all the substantial decisions of the Government have been taken on this matter. I hope to receive the draft so that it may be considered by the legislative committee of the Cabinet within the next two or three weeks. We shall then produce a bill, certainly in this session and I hope before the House rises for its customary recess. The matter is now in the hands of the Parliamentary Draftsman. 1883 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - You mean before the next recess of one week? 1883 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - Yes. I hope to produce the bill by the end of this month. If this is not possible, it will be produced as soon as possible thereafter. 1883 1883 JSG 0 0 BRIMBLECOMBE, Wilfred Mr BRIMBLECOMBE - I address a question to the Minister for Primary Industry. Was a scheme for the stabilisation of the tobacco industry placed before the Commonwealth Ministers concerned on 13th August? Has the scheme been considered by the Government? If so, can the Minister say when it will be introduced? 1883 JLR CP 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr ADERMANN - I think it was late in August when the growers' representatives met the three Commonwealth Ministers and submitted a proposal for stabilisation. It was at that stage that the three Ministers met the manufacturers and the growers in conference. It was considered essential that the growers and the manufacturers should determine a scale of grades and prices before we came to any conclusion or determined any policy. We sent the representatives away to have a look at that matter and they have never reported back. If they are complaining at the moment, as some of them are, that there is some delay, all I can say is that the ball is back in their court. However, the Government has not rested at that. As a result of action by the Commonwealth Government I met the three State Ministers concerned in Sydney last week, and we are looking at the matter further to determine how quickly we can agree on a basis on which we can again meet the growers and the manufacturers. 1883 1883 JVU 0 0 NELSON, John Mr NELSON - Will the Minister for the Army confirm that the 10 Bofors antiaircraft guns recently sent to Darwin but at present unmanned are the only antiaircraft weapons protecting the coastline of northern Australia between Newcastle on the east coast and possibly Fremantle on the west coast? Will the Minister also confirm that the Bofors guns in question, while they were excellent weapons against low flying aircraft in World War II, would be about as useful against high flying modern aircraft attacking Australia as shovelnosed spears and boomerangs would be? Should not modern anti-aircraft rocket batteries be installed at strategic spots on our northern coastline to cope with attacks by such high flying modern aircraft or any other kind of air attack? 1883 KFH LP 1 0 FORBES, Alexander Dr FORBES - Decisions on where to station anti-aircraft guns or any other defence equipment are matters of Government defence policy. It is true that a number of Bofors guns were recently sent to Darwin to provide equipment for the raising of a unit of the Citizen Military Forces in that town. I should have thought that the honorable member, coming as he does from that part of the world, would have been very glad that we are giving the citizens of Darwin an opportunity to provide eventually, perhaps, for their own defence. I hope we will have his assistance in forming this unit as rapidly as possible. As to a replacement for the Bofors guns, I think it is true to say that no country has yet developed a replacement to take over the particular role of the Bofors gun, which is to give protection against attacks by lowflying aircraft. Strenuous efforts are being made to do so. We are watching developments very carefully in that respect. Finally, whatever the honorable member may say about the Bofors gun, I have found from talking to Air Force pilots, both from Australia and other countries, that they still have a very healthy respect for it. Although the Bofors gun does have its disadvantages, undoubtedly it provides a very useful deterrent effect. 1884 1884 4U4 0 0 KILLEN, James Mr KILLEN - I address a question to the Deputy Prime Minister. I refer to charges, imputing among other things disloyalty, made in this House and outside it concerning an organisation known as the Australian League of Rights. I ask: In view of the very serious nature of the charges will the Government say whether it has any information which would in any substantial way support these charges? If so, will the Government make the information available for public scrutiny? If the Government has not any information of an incriminatory nature will it say so and thereby give to those concerned an opportunity to vindicate their character and to clear their names? 1884 009MB CP 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - I am not familiar with the alleged charges that have been made nor with the facts in respect of this organisation. I will look at the matter, but I do not regard it as a function of the Government to issue character certificates. 1884 1884 K58 0 0 O'CONNOR, William Mr O'CONNOR - My question, which is directed to the Minister for the Navy, deals with that part of the Royal Commission's report on the "Voyager" disaster in which special reference is made to outstanding acts of heroism by certain members of the "Voyager's" crew. In view of the fact that, as I believe, acts of heroism and bravery such as were displayed are no less great in peace time than in war, will the Minister consider bringing this matter before members of the Naval Board with the object of the Board taking necessary action to bring about suitable recognition of these acts? 1884 JWV LP 1 0 CHANEY, Fred Mr CHANEY - The question of conferring awards of all sorts, whether civil, military or for any purpose whatever, is not normally discussed until the awards are announced. There are obvious reasons for that. However, I assure the honorable member that the Naval Board was not unmindful of the statements that were made during the Royal Commission in connection with this matter. 1884 1884 JMF 0 0 ASTON, William Mr ASTON - Can the Minister for Housing tell the House why the War Service Homes Division has been unable to proceed with plans to construct homes for eligible ex-servicemen on land acquired three years ago for this purpose at Baulkham Hills? Is it a fact that the New South Wales Government has refused to approve the release of the land for homes for ex-servicemen, despite the fact that there is still a housing shortage in New South Wales and that the scheme has been approved by the local council and the National Trust of Australia (N.S.W.)? 1884 JTP LP 1 0 BURY, Leslie Mr BURY - We did acquire about three years ago at Baulkham Hills 114 acres which had been released by the Army and which had formerly been used as a rifle range. This is a normal practice. A number of war service homes estates have been built on surplus Commonwealth lands. Accordingly, we drew up plans which involved developing most of that area as a housing estate with good class homes for ex-servicemen and the release of 39 acres of open space for recreation purposes. Although we are not bound by State government zoning regulations; it is the normal practice to apply to the local government authorities and to adhere to whatever the local government regulations may be. Accordingly, we made application and our plans were approved by the Baulkham Hills Shire Council, which passed a resolution in favour of them. The plans were examined also by the National Trust, which is particularly concerned with amenities around Sydney. The Trust expressed no disapproval. However, the New South Wales Minister for Local Government rejected the application, and that is the point at which the matter now stands. 1885 1885 KCI 0 0 DEVINE, Leonard Mr DEVINE - Can the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation inform this chamber whether the Minister for Civil Aviation, Senator Henty, is representing Reg Ansett, or whether Reg Ansett is the Minister for Civil Aviation represented by Senator Henty? 1885 KDT LP 1 0 FAIRBAIRN, David Mr FAIRBAIRN - The question is such a futile one that I do not propose to answer it. 1885 1885 5E4 SINCLAIR, Ian McCahon Dr SINCLAIR My question is directed to the Minister for the Army. Has exercise Long Shot demonstrated the ability of the Australian Regular Army to maintain and sustain forces in the field at any point in South East Asia or to the north of Australia where they may be required, and forcibly displayed the effectiveness of the Australian Army to the limit of its present manpower, and also illustrated that early steps will be necessary to increase the number of Australian trained military personnel beyond the present announced quotas? 1885 KFH LP 1 0 FORBES, Alexander Dr FORBES - The overwhelming lesson of exercise Long Shot in the logistic sense was the demonstration of the Australian Army's capacity, training and equipment without doubt to mount and maintain a force on a far shore. This exercise also demonstrated that with more men the Army could do this more comfortably and with less disruption to the Australian support area. 1885 1885 JO8 0 0 BARNARD, Lance Mr BARNARD - My question which is directed to the Minister for the Navy is supplementary to the question asked by the honorable member for Macarthur concerning the training of school cadets. I ask the Minister whether it would be possible for the Department of the Navy to provide Launceston sea cadets with equipment for training purposes a little more up to date than the piece of field artillery that they have at present, which was used in the Boer War. 1885 JWV LP 1 0 CHANEY, Fred Mr CHANEY - I should imagine that the sea cadets in Launceston have this piece of artillery purely as a museum piece, and not for any training that might stand them in good stead in the Navy. Concurrently, the question of sea cadets is under consideration by my Department in an attempt to improve the training methods available. I am quite certain that the unit mentioned by the honorable member will be one of those given consideration. 1885 1885 KCU 0 0 DRURY, Edward Mr DRURY - My question is directed to the Deputy Prime Minister. As the latest Directory of United States Investment in Australian Manufacturing Industry is dated 1962, would the right honorable gentleman arrange for his department to publish as early as possible an up to date directory so that members may be informed on the present extent of direct investment by United States companies in Australian manufacturing industry? 1885 009MB CP 0 0 MCEWEN, John Mr McEWEN - I advise the honorable member that the publication of a revised edition of directories showing overseas investment in Australia is under consideration at the present time. There is a tremendous amount of work involved in assembling the information. I can tell the honorable member that the matter is under consideration, but I cannot promise him when the directories will be actually available. 1885 1885 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr WHITLAM - I ask the Minister for Housing a question concerning New South Wales legislation, and administration, and the War Service Homes Division. The honorable member for Phillip asked the Minister a question concerning 104 building blocks in that State. I want to ask him about some 600 advances which have been made possible for applicants to the Division under New South Wales legislation, the Conveyancing (Strata Titles) Act. I ask the Minister whether the Division has put it to the other five States that they also should pass legislation which would permit applicants for advances from the War Service Homes Division to secure advances for home units. 1886 JTP LP 1 0 BURY, Leslie Mr BURY - The position is that the War Service Homes Act requires that the War Service Homes Division must be assured that there are satisfactory titles before loans can be made. The New South Wales Government has passed satisfactory strata title legislation, as has the Tasmanian Government. We have been discussing the matter with other authorities, particularly the Victorian authorities. I believe that they are now engaged in revising their strata title legislation. When this has been done, and when satisfactory titles can be got, we shall be able to make similar advances in other States. 1886 1886 KB8 0 0 GILES, Geoffrey Mr GILES - I address to the Minister for National Development a question relating to the Chowilla Dam. Has the Minister any up to date information relating to the progress of the work connected with the construction of this dam, which is so vital to the water requirements of South Australia? 1886 KDT LP 1 0 FAIRBAIRN, David Mr FAIRBAIRN - I understand that work is proceeding quite expeditiously on the site of the Chowilla Dam. The work being done at present is connected with designing the dam and testing foundations. I believe that the South Australian authorities who are to build the dam for the River Murray Commission will be in a position to call for tenders in about the middle of next year. The dam will take about three years to complete. It should be completed, therefore, in time for the spring flow in 1969. This will be by a long way the largest water storage project in Australia. The dam will hold back about five million acre feet of water, which is about twice the amount held back by the Hume Weir. The estimated cost of the work is approximately £14 million, which is quite low. 1886 1886 JUX 0 0 MINOGUE, Daniel Mr MINOGUE - I address a question to the Minister for External Affairs. Several months have elapsed since the Minister announced that Australia would exchange diplomatic representatives with Ireland, but no Australian appointment has yet been made. On behalf of many thousands of Australian citizens of Irish extraction, I ask: What are the reasons for the delay in making the appointment? Is it a fact that Ireland appointed an Ambassador to Australia approximately three months ago and is disappointed at Australia's reluctance to exchange representatives by appointing an Australian Ambassador to Ireland? Is it the intention of the Minister to delay the Australian appointment until after the Senate election in order that the position may be offered to a defeated Liberal Party candidate? 1886 ZL6 LP 1 0 HASLUCK, Paul Mr HASLUCK - I assured the honorable member once before that there was no reluctance on our part to complete this appointment and that we are taking exceptional care to appoint a suitable man worthy of this high office. 1886 1886 KHS 0 0 HOLTEN, Rendle Mr HOLTEN - My question is addressed to the Treasurer. In view of the tremendous importance to the rural areas of Australia of the proposed rationalisation of petrol prices, particularly because of the rising costs that are facing many of the residents of those areas, has the Treasurer stressed the urgency of this matter to the other parties involved? Can he say what the present position is regarding finalisation of the proposal and the introduction into this Parliament of the appropriate legislation? 1886 KDT LP 1 0 FAIRBAIRN, David Mr FAIRBAIRN - Perhaps this matter comes more within my jurisdiction. Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Attorney-General, the Minister for Customs and Excise and I had a meeting with representatives of the oil industry with a view to finalising the proposal. We are now starting to draft the required bills. The Prime Minister has written to the Premiers of the various States asking them to nominate representatives to come here for finalisation of the draft legislation, as legislation by the States as well as by the Commonwealth will be required. So far we have received replies from three of the States who have nominated the people who will be sent here. We intend to call a conference at Canberra as soon as the legislation is in draft form so that it can be shown to them, and discuss it on the spot with them. 1887 Industrial Dispute. 1887 KRK 0 0 MCIVOR, Hector Mr McIVOR - Does the Treasurer recall having said at the opening of the Technical Division of General MotorsHolden's Pty. Ltd., Fishermen's Bend, Port Melbourne, that an increase in prices was inevitable due to the £1 a week increase in the basic wage? Will the Treasurer inform the House whether the sentiments contained in that statement are the sentiments actuating the Government's stand on the General Motors-Holden's dispute in which the workers of General Motors-Holden's are seeking an increase in their weekly wage? 1887 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - The point I was trying to make when I included in a more general survey the statement to which the honorable gentleman has referred was that the size of the wage adjustment made, in my judgment, some increase in prices inevitable, not necessarily in the field of private industry where a high degree of competitiveness exists - and, indeed, I think that so far as the motor industry is concerned there has been no upward adjustment of prices following the basic wage increase. However, I did know that the government utilities, which have no opportunity to absorb a cost increase from the profits they make, because they render so far as practicable their services at cost to the community, would have to increase the cost of some of the services provided. From what I knew of the financial position of the State Governments I felt that they would not be able to absorb this increase within their budgets and that, in the case of several of them and of some of the utilities, increases in prices could be expected. This has taken place, and I do not think anyone should have been surprised by it. Indeed it is astonishing to me to find that those who speak for the trade unions in this country should have not anticipated this as a certain consequence of the decision to increase the basic wage. The objective of this Government has been to ensure as high a degree of competition in industry as can be maintained so that the public will secure commodities and services at the best cost available to them. The services provided by governments will continue to be operated at the most efficient level that governments can provide, but governments have no magic of their own which enables them to absorb cost increases without in turn passing those charges on to the public. 1887 1887 KGP 0 0 HAWORTH, William Mr HAWORTH - I wish to ask the Minister for Supply a question about faulty gun ammunition. I understand that the Army has complained that a number of types of ammunition and explosives supplied to the Army by the Department of Supply were faulty. Can the Minister say what the reasons for these failures are and what steps are being taken to avoid premature explosions and to correct any faults in ammunition in the future? 1887 KEN LP 1 0 FAIRHALL, Allen Mr FAIRHALL - I am afraid that a rundown on ammunition production would go well beyond the confines of question time, but I might be permitted to say that when you start to put together the most intricate mechanical, chemical and electronic processes to make a projectile which is intended to be at once completely lethal to the person in front and completely safe to the person in back, you are bound to run into mechanical trouble. In any line of production of this kind inevitably some defects will creep through. In the normal course of production you can test an item, judge its faults, correct them and put the item back into service, but in the case of explosives under test, if there is a malfunction the evidence is destroyed with the item under test. This situation leads to some most extraordinary difficulties. I know that is a masterpiece of understatement. The Army certainly appreciates my Department's difficulties. The difficulties reported arose principally from a small series - three in all - of premature explosions that occurred in one type of gun ammunition. When a premature explosion of this kind occurs in the small percentage of rounds under test it is necessary to red card or to take out of service the rest of that batch of production until you have isolated the cause of the premature explosion. As I pointed out, with ammunition that is faulty nothing is left on which to work and you must go through every process with the shell and upgrade every process of production hoping that thereby you will find the one causing the trouble. In this case the Army and the Department of Supply sent a team of explosives experts abroad. We sought the best advice from ammunition production experts in the United Kingdom, Canada and America, all of whom had had experience with this particular type of explosive. The upshot of this exercise was to cause the overseas production agencies to have a second look at their production but it did not isolate the cause of our difficulty. This matter is under constant investigation. We believe that we have now produced a shell to upgraded Army specification and we are back in production in that line of endeavour. Some reference has been made to shells marked "Not for Issue". I think I should point out to the House that shells marked "Not for Issue" are not necessarily defective. That inscription simply means that if there is the slightest suspicion of a defect yet undisclosed in that ammunition it will be red carded for full examination. This is a safety precaution for the men using the ammunition. In addition where you have a series of shells using a common explosive, the entire batch will be red carded "under suspicion" until the cause of the difficulty has been isolated. I can tell the honorable gentleman that I believe we are about at the end of a quite serious run of difficulties with ammunition and we are back in production with most of it. I expect most of the difficulties to be cleared very shortly. 1888 1888 YF4 0 0 CROSS, Manfred Mr CROSS - Will the Minister for Immigration explain why he toned down his reference in yesterday's "Hansard" to the "social peregrinations" of a Russian Orthodox Archbishop who wished to visit this country? 1888 KMB LP 1 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN - Did the honorable gentleman say that I toned down my answer? 1888 YF4 0 0 CROSS, Manfred Mr Cross - Why did you delete a word? 1888 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - Why did you alter your answer in "Hansard"? 1888 KMB 0 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN - I am not conscious that I made any vital alteration to the "Hansard" report. I altered the word "Communist" to "Communist controlled" in referring to an organisation. As far as the reference to social peregrinations is concerned, my conscience is clear. I do not remember making any alteration in that regard. 1888 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - You left out the word "social #34;. 1888 KMB 0 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN - Let us be clear on this. I made no alteration to anything that I said about the man's social activities. 1888 1888 009OD 0 0 NIXON, Peter Mr NIXON - I ask the Treasurer a question. As it is apparent that the Government has no detailed information about the amount of overseas investment controlling individual Australian industries - that statement was given in reply to a question placed on notice by the honorable member for Indi - will the Treasurer say whether information of this nature can be traced through the exchange control of the Reserve Bank of Australia when details of profit repatriations overseas are requested? 1888 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - I do not quite perceive the purpose of the honorable gentleman's question. It has been the policy of the Government to encourage investment from overseas in order to expand the industries of the Commonwealth and to provide work opportunities for Australia's growing population, including immigrants who come to this country. The Government has not felt cause for concern at the dimension of this investment. There are aspects of the investment which have been referred to as not being so desirable as some other aspects, but I have yet to learn that there is any Government concern at the dimension of overseas investment in Australia. Some honorable gentlemen opposite who talk about the Canadian situation might be interested to know that dollar investment in Australia is and has been over recent years about one-fifteenth of United States investment in Canada. The honorable member for Gippsland is shaking his head. What is he really getting at? 1888 009OD 0 0 NIXON, Peter Mr Nixon - A record of the types of investment. 1888 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - From our own knowledge of what is happening in the economy, I think we can have a pretty good idea of the kind of investment that has been occurring in this country. I believe that Australia, in the main, has been greatly benefited by it. 1889 miscellaneous 1889 009MC Higgins LP Treasurer 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT . - Pursuant to section 14 of the Commonwealth Grants Commission Act, I present the following paper - Commonwealth Grants Commission Act - Commonwealth Grants Commission - Thirtyfirst Report (1964). 1889 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - On what date was the report signed? How long have you been sitting on it? 1889 009MC 0 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT - It is customary to table the report at the time when the relevant legislation is introduced. 1889 bill Bill - by leave - presented by Mr. Harold Holt, and read a first time. 1889 1889 009MC Higgins LP Treasurer 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr HAROLD HOLT . - I move - That the Bill be now read a second time. The main purpose of this Bill is to authorise the payment in 1964-65 of special grants totalling £15,860,000 to the States of Western Australia and Tasmania. The payment of these grants has been recommended by the Commonwealth Grants Commission in its Thirty-first Report which has already been tabled. The Bill also authorises the payment of advances to Western Australia and Tasmania in the earlier months of 1965-66 until such time as Parliament authorises the payment of special grants for that year. A similar provision has been included for a number of years in the legislation authorising payments of special grants to the claimant States. Under the procedures currently employed by the Commission, the special grants recommended for payment each year consist of two parts. One part is an advance payment based on the Commission's assessment of a claimant State's financial needs for the year in which the grant is to be paid. This part is subject to final adjustment two years later when the Commission has completed its examination of the audited results of the States for that year. The other part of the grant represents the final adjustment of the advance payment made two years earlier. In accordance with its usual practice, the Commission has arrived at its recommendations by making a detailed comparison of the Budgets of each of the claimant States with those of the standard States, particular account being taken of differences in levels of expenditures and efforts to raise revenue. As in the three preceding years, the Commission has taken the States of New South Wales and Victoria as the standard States for the purpose of these comparisons. The special grants which the Commission has recommended for payment in 1964-65 and the special grants paid in 1963-64 are set out in a table which, with the permission of the House, I incorporate in " Hansard ". In deciding the adjustments to the advance payments made to the claimant States in 1962-63, the Commission examined the Budget results of the standard States of New South Wales and Victoria and adopted an amount of 5s. 6d. per capita as the deficit Budget standard to be applied in respect of that year. After comparing the level of services and charges, the Commission has recommended grants which would have the effect of leaving Western Australia with a small deficit to fund and Tasmania with a balanced Budget result for 1962-63. In arriving at its recommendations as to the amount of the advance payments which should be made to the claimant States in a financial year, the Commission makes a forecast of the amount of financial assistance likely to be justified for the year of payment. To estimate the likely Budget standard for that year, the Commission examined the Budget prospects for 1964-65 of the two standard States - New South Wales and Victoria - and concluded that, on the basis of existing policies, a deficit standard for 1964-65 would be appropriate. The advance payments recommended by the. Commission would, on the basis of preliminary estimates submitted by the claimant States, leave both of them with prospective Budget deficits for 1964-65. In total, the special grants recommended for payment in 1964-65 are £4,140,000 greater than those paid in 1963-64. The effect of adopting the Commision's recommendations would be to increase by about £7,040,000 the total general revenue grants - that is, the financial assistance grants based on the Commonwealth Statistician's latest estimates plus the special grants - payable to the two claimant States this financial year. For Western Australia the increase would be approximately £4,484,000 and for Tasmania approximately £2,556,000. The increase of £4,410,000 in the special grants recommended for payment to Western Australia and Tasmania in 1964-65 arises partly because, on the basis of its assessment of the Budget outlook for the two standard States, the Commission adopted a much lower deficit Budget standard for 1964-65 than that adopted for 1963-64. In addition, the Commission adopted a new method of comparing the levels of expenditure on social services in the claimant and standard States which has yielded a result considerably more favorable to the claimant States than the method previously employed. The Grants Commission's recommendations have been adopted without amendment in every year since the Commission was established in 1933. The Government considers that the Commission's recommendations regarding special grants for Western Australia and Tasmania in 1964-65 should be adopted. I therefore commend the Bill to honorable members. Debate (on motion by Mr. Crean) adjourned. 1890 miscellaneous 1890 Motion (by Mr. Fairhall) proposed - That Government business shall take precedence over general business tomorrow. 1890 4U4 Moreton 0 0 KILLEN, James Mr KILLEN .- I offer no physical opposition to the motion but I am anxious to make one or two comments. When a similar motion was last placed before the House the Opposition had given notice of a motion of censure and I did not seek on that occasion to intervene. 1 took the view that a motion of no confidence took precedence over all other matters. But on the previous occasion when a similar motion was proposed - that is to say, on 2nd September last - I had this to say - I do not intend to place an obstacle in tha path of this motion, but I do want my honorable friend the Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Hasluck) to accept my assurance of my determination to press to a vote the matter standing in my name under Notices of Motion. I simply want to say that in regard to this notice of motion timing has become quite critical. That was on 2nd September. Before a week was out, the very proposal that was the subject of the motion in my name on the notice paper had been implemented. I interrupt myself, Mr. Speaker, to give you my assurance that in no way will I refer to that matter or to any collateral issue.. I am referring now to the timing and the manner in which the Government has treated private members of the Parliament and the rights of private members. It is hardly credible that on 2nd September the matter I had referred to would not have been known to the Minister or to the Government. I do not suggest for one moment that a Minister or the Government is under any obligation whatever to take any notice of a private member's motion. There is no Standing Order to that effect; there is no parliamentary convention to that effect. But I do venture to say that there exists a powerful case on the count of common courtesy for the Minister on behalf of the Government to have come to me on 2nd September or one day subsequent to that date, or better still to have come to the House and made a statement informing the House of what would happen. I am not complaining for having been tossed from a horse, as it were. I have been thrown from horses before. But I just want to say to the Government and to the Leader of the House (Mr. Harold Holt) that it has been my invariable practice when thrown from a horse to get back on the horse with a little stick in my hand. This is the second occasion upon which this matter has been treated in what 1 would describe as a cavalier way. On the first occasion the House had before it a private member's motion, the motion was debated and the debate was adjourned. The next thing that happened on that matter about which honorable members, the Parliament and the country knew, was that a Press statement had been made outside the Parliament. That is not to be defended on any ground whatever. The proper place for such a statement to have been made was in the House and I propose to cite two authorities to show that this is so. The first authority I cite is the Governor-General, Sir Ronald Munro-Ferguson, in 1918, who, in writing to the Prime Minister, had this to say - I would strongly urge that the announcement be made in Parliament, and that for the following reasons. I have taken my stand on the absolute pre-eminence of Parliament, and on my inability to recognize party exigencies, or to have official cognizance of any happenings or utterances outside the parliamentary arena. Therefore, to allow Parliament to meet after a commission has been granted, and to allow it to remain in ignorance of this important fact until a party meeting has been given the information, is to ignore the principle on which I acted in granting you a commission. I would, therefore, strongly advise that you make the announcement in Parliament, whose supremacy it has been my object to vindicate. 1891 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - Who said that? 1891 4U4 0 0 KILLEN, James Mr KILLEN - That was the Governor-General writing to the Prime Minister in 1918. I venture to say that the manner in which the Government had left the Parliament on the first occasion was absolutely scandalous. Standing Orders absolutely forbid any question being asked on a matter that is the subject of a motion. No honorable member could comment on the matter. I believe that the Government or the Minister could at least have moved for the discharge of the notice of motion from the notice paper. If the Government or the Minister takes the view that 1 may have been angry at their action, so be it, but I do give the assurance that, whereas I may have nibbled at the Minister a little, I think I could have controlled myself to the point of refraining from stark cannibalism. The second authority I quote is the present Leader of the House, the right honorable member for Higgins. This is what he had to say, and I join with him completely - I have always felt as a member of the Commonwealth Parliament that the first responsibility of a member is to the Parliament, and through it to the people - not to the political party to which he belongs, or to the Government that he has helped to maintain in office. He has a primary responsibility to the Parliament as an institution, because it is the instrument of the democracy that elects him. He should adhere firmly to the principle that the Parliament should at all times control the Executive, which derives its authority from the Parliament. I say quite flatly that in the last Parliament the Government would not have dared to have behaved in the way it has treated a private member's motion on this occasion. It would not have dared at all. I want to renew my simple assurance to the Minister and to the Government that I will continue to press for a vote on the matter that rests in my name at the present moment. The last comment I make is this: If Ministers are so captivated with the vision of the brave new world that they will sit down and allow the brave new world to arrive without any complaint at all, and if the state in its judgment decides that it will be beneficial for the whole of mankind to take oral contraceptives, I have no doubt that the Ministry will be uncomplaining about it and, looking at some members of the Ministry, I have no doubt in some cases it will work. 1891 6U4 Werriwa 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr WHITLAM .- Ordinarily, members of the Opposition would be to the forefront in asserting the rights of honorable members on Grievance Day or on general business day. We do not expect that anybody will call for a division on this matter. If a division is called, the Opposition will vote in support of the proposition put by the Minister for Supply (Mr. Fairhall). We have two reasons for adopting this attitude. Our first is that it is now impossible for any honorable member to secure a debate on a matter that he puts down in general business until this session is brought to an end or until the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Killen) has had a debate on the motion that he has had on the notice paper since 23rd April. This is due to the fact that he gave notice of the motion for the second sitting Thursday on which general business has precedence on the notice paper after 23 rd April. Therefore, however long this session lasts, and of course it may last until the next election for this House, it is impossible for any general business to be debated on the initiative of any honorable member until this matter has been debated. The honorable member for Moreton has made a farce of the procedures of the House, and in particular of this special avenue available to honorable members, by tying up the notice paper until the next prorogation. The other reason why we would support the proposition that the House deal with more urgent business tomorrow and give other honorable members an opportunity to express their views on more important matters is that this subject has been twice debated already on the initiative of the honorable member for Moreton. The first time was on 10th October of last year when, before the time elapsed on that Thursday morning, the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory (Mr. J. R. Fraser) moved that the question be put so that the House could vote both on his amendment and, whether that became the motion or was defeated, on the motion that would then be before the House. The honorable member for Moreton voted against the question being put on 10th October of last year. The very proposition that the honorable member for Moreton wants the House to debate and vote on was available for the House to vote on over a year ago. The honorable member voted against the proposition that a vote should be taken then. When this Parliament met once again he put a notice on the notice paper and this came on for debate on 16th April. The Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies), the honorable member for Bowman (Dr. Gibbs), who is the only medical practitioner in the House, and the honorable member for Hughes (Mr. L. R. Johnson) spoke. The debate was then adjourned on the initiative of the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony). The honorable member for Moreton has since put on the notice paper the motion which at present stands there in his name. The honorable gentleman has taken two opportunities to put his arguments on the matter which is the subject of the motion. He has effectively ensured that General Business Day cannot be used during the rest of this sessional period for the discussion of any other subject until the House disposes of his motion. More than a year ago, he voted against the proposition that we should have a vote on the motion which he had submitted to the House at that time. He has now lost his chance for a vote and he has deprived every other honorable member of a chance to debate any other matter. 1892 4U4 0 0 KILLEN, James Mr Killen - I wish to make a personal explanation, Sir. 1892 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Does the honorable member claim to have been misrepresented? 1892 4U4 0 0 KILLEN, James Mr Killen - Yes. I do not usually complain about these things, but I want to assure the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Whitlam) that my vote on 10th October of last year against the motion proposed by the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory (Mr. J. R. Fraser) was not a vote against the proposition that a vote be taken on my motion. I voted against the proposition that the debate be gagged. I should not like any person to be under a misapprehension about that. 1892 DB6 Mackellar 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr WENTWORTH . - Mr. Speaker, I believe that the matter raised by the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Killen) is worthy of consideration. It is perfectly true that tomorrow is set down, in the normal course of things, as Grievance Day. 1892 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - General Business Day. 1892 DB6 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr WENTWORTH - General Business Day, or Grievance Day. Honorable members who wish to bring forward private member's motions are not receiving as clear a run in this House as they should. For this, the Opposition has itself largely to blame because, from time to time, it has occupied, with special proposals that have taken up the available time, the Thursdays set down for private members' business. To my way of thinking, it is exceedingly desirable that we amend the Standing Orders to provide that on the days set aside for private members' motions special proposals for the discussion of definite matters of public importance should not be allowed to intervene. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Whitlam) has said that the honorable member for Moreton has abused the forms of the House. In this regard, I do not think he has. He has done something that prevents the abuse of the forms of this House that would otherwise have taken place. He has done something that is perhaps a little unorthodox, but what he has done has had the effect, not of creating an evil, but of correcting an abuse. At this stage, I say nothing about the substance of the motion that stands on the notice paper in the honorable member's name. I would be grossly out of order if I were to mention it at all. However, I ask the House to consider its own dignity and the rights of private members, and to amend its Standing Orders and reform its practices in such a way as to ensure that private members receive, not excessive, but adequate and proper, opportunities for bringing before the House those matters that they believe to be of public importance. The motion now proposed by the Minister for Supply (Mr. Fairhall) relates not to General Business Day, but to Grievance Day. One would consider that, while the debate on the Estimates was in progress, a reasonable case could be made for postponing General Business Day, but not private members' day. For that reason, I can heartily support the Minister's motion. However, I believe that the House ought to give some attention to the principles relating to the matter raised by the honorable member and, in particular, to the amendment of the Standing Orders in such a way as to preserve alternate Thursdays for private members' business and General Business. 1893 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - I wish to make a personal explanation, Mr. Speaker. The honorable member for Mackellar (Mr. Wentworth) misrepresented me and some of my colleagues concerning our attitude to General Business Day. Apart from the motion that stands on the notice paper in the name of the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Killen), four matters are listed under General Business, three of them in the names of Opposition members. One item listed in the name of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Calwell) relates to a referendum for the alteration of provisions of the Constitution as they affect Aborigines. An item standing in the name of the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Gray) concerns the striking of an Anzac Medal. A motion standing in the name of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Crean) proposes the disallowance of certain regulations relating to telephone charges. The fourth matter stands in the name of the honorable member for Bradfield (Mr. Turner). I obtained the adjournment of the debate on that subject and I am anxious to speak on it. 1893 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser .- Mr. Speaker, first of all, 1 think I should remind the House that the honorable member for Mackellar (Mr. Wentworth) was slightly in error when he described tomorrow's proposed debate as a Grievance Day debate. Tomorrow will be General Business Day. I wish to speak on this matter because the Parliament is rapidly approaching the end of the sessional period. We sit this week and in the two following weeks. Presumably, we then have a week's rest and come back for two further weeks of sitting. There is on the notice paper under General Business an item that I consider ought to be disposed of. This is a matter that has been referred to the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies) by the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Reynolds), the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony), myself and the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Gray), by way of questions and in debate. The matter to which I refer stands on the notice paper in the name of the honorable member for Capricornia. That item of business relates to the presentation by him of a bill for an act to provide for the striking of an Anzac Medal for members of the Australian forces who served on the Gallipoli Peninsula in 1915. This is the only way in which the subject can come before the House. It is important that the matter come before this House prior to Anzac Day next year, that being the 50th anniversary of the landing at Gallipoli. The whole purpose of referring the matter to the House in this way is to get a decision from the Government before the celebration of the 50th anniversary of the landing at Gallipoli. If th« Government Will not give us an answer to the question that has been raised, it should at least give us an opportunity to debate the subject under the item of business standing in the name of the honorable member for Capricornia. I ask the Minister for Supply (Mr. Fairhall), who has proposed the motion that we are now debating, to ensure that such an opportunity is given before the Parliament rises for the Christmas recess. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1894 miscellaneous 1894 1894 JXI Forrest LP Minister for Shipping and Transport 1 0 FREETH, Gordon Mr FREETH . - I move - That, in accordance with the provisions of the Public Works Committee Act 1913-1960, it is expedient to carry out the following proposed work which was referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works and on which the committee has duly reported to this House: - Construction of a Radio Australia Booster Station at Darwin, Northern Territory. The proposal involves the provision at an estimated cost of £1,533,000 of transmitter and associated buildings, receiver and associated buildings, jetty, garage and store terminal building, together with access and internal roads, power, water supply and sewerage. The Public Works Committee, in reporting favorably on the proposal, has recommended the provision of window air conditioners to certain accommodation at an additional cost of £1,000. It is proposed to accept this recommendation. The Committee has recommended also that all authorities involved confer as soon as possible to determine whether Cox Peninsula is to be developed for residential purposes. This recommendation has been referred to the Department of Territories for attention. The Committee's comments concerning the practice of excluding from references to it equipment to be installed in a proposed work is being examined. Upon the concurrence of this House in this resolution, detailed planning can proceed in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1894 miscellaneous 1894 1894 BU4 Richmond CP Minister for the Interior 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY . - by leave - In 1901 the Seat of Government Act, which established Canberra as the nation's capital, envisaged the city as the centre of Federal administration and the seat of Parliament. This in itself called for the early establishment of an administrative and cultural centre with the prospect of a more impressive one to come in line with the expected growth of Australia and the national economy. The idea of a National Capital crystallised in 1911 with the launching of an international competition for the design of the city. The successful design demanded development worthy of the Australian nation, which would compare favorably with other national capitals. The Canberra plan, despite initial difficulties, was accepted, and subsequently gazetted in 1925. An era of rapid development under the guidance of the Federal Capital Commission then followed, culminating with the opening of the interim Houses of Parliament in 1927. Shortly after, city development entered a period of relative stagnation created by, first, severe economic, and then wartime, conditions. Dissatisfaction with the rate of progress towards the fulfilment of the capital led to the setting up of a Senate Select Committee in 1954 to inquire into the development of Canberra. The report of the Senate Committee stressed the need for unifying the main activities involved in the development of the national capital and recommended that these activities be the responsibility of a separate commission with statutory powers. The Government of the day acted on this advice and accordingly the National Capital Development Commission was set up by Act of Parliament in 1957. This Parliament has, of course, always taken a direct interest in the growth of Canberra. The Commission, through its annual and special development reports, has kept the Parliament closely in touch with all aspects of the development of this city. Population growth has been particularly rapid in recent years. The plan for Canberra, prepared some fifty years ago, envisaged a city of 25,000 people with space for an ultimate 75,000 population. Canberra has passed this mark, and the progress which has been made can be seen around us. The Government sees the continuation of this recent development, the ordered growth of a modern National Capital, as a joint venture between Government and private enterprise. The 100,000 population mark should be passed in 1967 and it is confidently expected that the city will have reached 250,000 in 20 or 25 years time. The central offices of the administrative area of government will progressively be located in Canberra. Substantial developments will continue in tertiary education and research, commercial and professional activities and the tourist industry. Growth to the 250,000 population appears as if it will go forward at a rate no greater than has been experienced to date. If anything the absolute annual growth rate will tend to drop. The city has now gathered an impetus of its own making. The kind of stimulation which the Government itself has provided in the past is now becoming less evident as the city develops a strong commercial momentum in parallel with any other Australian city of comparable size. So the vision and foresight of our Parliamentary predecessors can now be seen expressed in physical terms and continuing dynamic growth is expected. This situation has obviously called for equivalent foresight for the future ahead of us of the present generation. The need for an expanded plan arose, one which would look forward in general terms for up to fifty years and examine in some detail the requirements of city growth to the 250,000 population level. The result of this work is in the report which has now been tabled before this Parliament and which sets out the basis for the future development of Canberra. The report, " The Future Canberra ", is in two parts. The first deals with the character and qualities considered necessary to Canberra's identity as the National Capital, the land use arrangements proposed, the services required and the physical form the city might take. Part 2. of the report examines the growth factors affecting Canberra and contains references to the administrative arrangements related to planning and development. In the particular situation that exists iq Canberra, with land in public ownership, the authorities responsible for planning and development on behalf of this Parliament are presented with a unique opportunity of guiding and fashioning growth in a manner which will achieve the highest measure of convenience and amenity for the residents within a framework of economic development, and which will guarantee achievement of the character and qualities required in areas of national significance. I believe this plan makes adequate provision for future needs both predictable and unpredictable but it is flexible to meet the unknown. We must in Canberra take every opportunity to avoid the problems that beset other cities when development is unplanned, haphazard and opportunist. One final point relates to the pattern of city growth predicted in "The Future Canberra ". The plan proposes a series of new districts grouped around the national and major central city areas but separated from it by broad belts of open land and connected by major transport routes. The new districts will each be made up of ten or more suburbs and will have district centres which will supply most of the district needs and act as large employment centres. The choice of this pattern has been influenced by the requirements of a carreliant community, which Canberra, in line with national trends, will increasingly tend to be. The form proposed can satisfy the requirements of community convenience, safety and effective economic operation. The geographical spread of the city brings future growth close to the Australian Capital Territory-New South Wales boundary, and this in itself is a matter which must receive increasing attention, particularly the need for an effective regional plan. Even the casual reader of this report might ask what financial commitments are involved in implementing this plan. Obviously the Federal Parliament has a close and continuing interest in the development of Canberra. This interest will continue to be effectively supported by private enterprise. But let me say that the development of a city under the orderly conditions set out in this report, enables the operation of a highly economical form of urban development. One must consider the growth returns that are accruing to the Commonwealth from Canberra's development and note the extent to which these are being used to the benefit of the Australian taxpayer and, indirectly, the Canberra community. This report, placed before the House today, has further convinced me that Canberra will be a large city and that it will be a handsome city with all the qualities that one would expect to find in an Australian national capital reaching maturity in the second half of the twentieth century. In due course the city plan as now envisaged will require gazettal and this will bring it, I trust, before the informed scrutiny of the Joint Parliamentary Committee on the Australian Capital Territory. I repeat that proposals are not so fixed that they cannot be amended in the light of informed criticism. The report serves to focus attention on this Parliamentary city and to remind each of us that the future is affected by today's preparations. I now Sir, for the information of honorable members, present the following report - The Future Canberra - A long range plan for land use and civic design - Report by National Capital Development Commission- and move - That the House take note of the paper. Debate (on motion by Mr. J. R. Fraser) adjourned. 1896 bill In Committee. Consideration resumed from 13th October (vide page 1866). Second Schedule. Department of Immigration. Proposed expenditure, £16,795,000. Department of Labour and National Service. Proposed expenditure, £3,423,000. 1896 KNM Blaxland 0 0 HARRISON, Eli Mr E JAMES HARRISON . - I propose to devote my attention to expenditure of the Department under the control of the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon). From the Department and through the Minister the Government draws its advice with respect to conciliation and arbitration in Australia, how the system is functioning and its needs. If the Department is up to date the Government learns also the result of any relevant legislation passed by this Parliament. It is rather appropriate that the Committee should be discussing the estimates for this Department and the ministerial responsibility for it at this stage, because I think it can be said that at this moment the nation is faced with a severe upturn of industrial unrest. After hearing the Minister's replies to questions asked yesterday and today I pose this question to the Committee: Why has this taken place? To answer this question, perhaps at the outset I should draw attention to what I believe to be the result either of very bad advice that the Minister is receiving from his Department or of the Minister's lack of appreciation of what is happening industrially in Australia at present. When I think in terms of the dispute at General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd. and the manner in which the Minister dealt with questions yesterday and again today - yesterday in particular - I say that either the Minister is out of touch with the basis of dispute, or the Department of Labour and National Service is not providing him with the type of information that he should be receiving. Yesterday the Minister said in reply to a question - This strike is being manipulated by Mr. Carmichael, a notorious member of the Communist Party in Victoria. . . . A little later he said - Carmichaels name should be mentioned because he is one of the most evil men in the trade union movement in Victoria. I say with the greatest respect that I believe the Minister said that on the advice of his Department, that it was a foolish statement, the kind of statement that the unionists, particularly those in an organisation like the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation, find hard to believe of a department and a Minister at this point of time. It was the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation that took this dispute to the Australian Council of Trade Unions. Nobody will convince me that the Minister, if properly advised by his Department, and if the Department is doing its job, is not fully aware of the impact of what is happening in industrial disputes, particularly disputes of the character I am now discussing. If the Minister was receiving proper advice from his Department, surely at the time when the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation took the dispute to the A.C.T.U. he would have understood that there was no question of Carmichael or of Communist leadership, but that this was a case of the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation and the A.C.T.U. versus G.M.H. Along with today's Press report of what the Minister said yesterday, in the same paper and under the same heading, there is a report of a statement by the president of the A.C.T.U.- We feel the strike should continue. This was said by Albert Monk - not Carmichael. Later in the report the leader of the A.C.T.U. is reported as having said that the strikers did not appreciate the attitude of G.M.H. in refusing to discuss the wage issue with the A.C.T.U. negotiating committee, which was ready to confer with the company at any time. This was said at the very time that the Minister in this place was referring to Carmichael as being the backbone of the dispute. I say to the Minister that if this is the kind of advice that he is getting from his Department it is time that he had a good look at it. The real background to this whole problem is the present conciliation and arbitration legislation, which is a running sore in Australia. The fact is that the trade unions today are not going to arbitration for their wage increases; they are indulging in strike action because they find that it brings better results than they can get from arbitration. So the whole system of arbitration as we have it in Australia at present is disintegrating. Carmichael cannot be blamed for this. The disintegration started from the day that this Parliament put penal provisions into the Conciliation and Arbitration Act. On the day that penal provisions were put into the Act conciliation cut out. It is as plain as the nose on one's face, if one were looking into the mirror, that what G.M.H. is doing at the moment is waiting to see what the result will be on Friday, which is the day on which the unions are summoned to appear before the Commonwealth Industrial Court. Each of the five unions will be fined £500. Some, including the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation have three charges against them, so they will be fined £1,500. Nobody- neither the Minister nor anybody else - will try to tell the Committee, surely, that the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation is being led or pushed around by any set of Communists. The situation is that the trade unions today are finding that the penal provisions in the Act - I said this at the time the provisions were inserted into the legislation, I have repeated it in this chamber and now we have proof of it - have created a coward's castle for bad employers. Bad employers set a principle that the employers generally are following. When the Minister said yesterday that Carmichael was now formulating the planning of this dispute, surely he understood that out of this the Vehicle Builders Employees Federation membership will increase. He should make no mistake about that. In today's Press there is a statement of the attitude of the leaders of G.M.H. The report says - Mr. Hegland said the company was always willing to meet the A.C.T.U., but there certainly could be no negotiations for an " across the board " increase. The A.C.T.U. quite rightly says at this stage: " If we are going to come in on the negotiations we are going to do it on a proper basis. We are not going to discuss this in circumscribed areas laid down by G.M.H." But the great damage done in respect of this is that when the Minister or anybody else here tries to tell us in 1964 that this kind of dispute is being run by Communists they are merely building up the Communists. 1897 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMahon - Nonsense. Do you deny that Carmichael controls it? 1897 KNM 0 0 HARRISON, Eli Mr E JAMES HARRISON - Let me deal with it. I want now to refer the Minister to the actions of a Premier of his own political kidney, the Premier of Victoria. I want to show him, using Victoria as an example, what is happening to the industrial arbitration system under the laws as they are at present. Before the Victorian State election a stoppage of work in all public utilities occurred in Victoria. The Premier of Victoria promised the unions that if they were good boys until after the election he would meet them. The Premier did meet them, but at that meeting they did not get very far because the Premier asked the Trades and Labour Council to set out for him the information that they had as to the basis of the problem. The council set about putting the information before the Premier. Let me now remind the Committee of the type of information that the trade union movement put before the Premier of Victoria. It submitted three and a half pages listing over-award payments made by 160 different firms. Each over-award payment was decided upon outside conciliation and arbitration as founded in this Parliament under the rotten legislation that we now have. I shall not deal with all of the over-award payments in general industry to tradesmen fitters, but I shall take three at the top of the first page. The "Age" which is a Melbourne newspaper pays a fitter £30 15s. which represents an over-award payment of £10 2s. A.R.C. Engineering pays its tradesmen fitters an over-award amount of £5 7s. per week The Australian Synthetic Rubber Co. Ltd. makes an over-award payment of £3 per week. I do not want to go through the 160 firms which are listed. I turn to page 2, and find that Dunlop Aviation pays an over-award amount of £3 12s. The same amount is paid by Dunlop Industries. Daylesford Centenary Woollen and Worsted Mills makes an over-award payment of £2. The "Herald and Weekly Times" Ltd. pays to every tradesman fitter £9 7s. 6d. over and above the award, outside arbitration as defined by this Parliament. These are big companies. Looking at the third page, I find that Massey Ferguson (Aust.) Ltd. pays £4 6s. over the award rate. Malcolm Moore Industries Ltd. £3 17s. and Mindrill Ltd. make £3 16s. 6d. in over-award payments. Milford Distributors Pty. Ltd. pays £4 17s. over and above the margin prescribed. The point I want to make is that when the Premier of Victoria analysed the true position of the unions which have followed conciliation and arbitration - and this applies to my union, the Australian Federated Union of Locomotive Enginemen - inside Victorian services, he found that to do any kind of justice at all he had to increase the wages of his own employees by amounts between 9s. and 42s. per week. The employees never asked for such amounts in many respects, but this action was taken by the Premier to mete out some kind of industrial justice to the employees of the State. Because the Victorian Premier corrected the injustice, he completely disregarded the legislation of this department and its Minister, and he wrote the agreement with the Trades Hall Council. That throws aside completely the arbitration act as we have it, and forgets all about the provisions of section 31. That is where we are with conciliation and arbitration today. There are two groups of employers in this country. There is the bad employer who gets in under the cover of the penal provisions of the Act all the time, and then there is the other type of employer who can easily pass on over-award payments and, therefore, does not caTe what wages he pays. 1898 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr Chipp - Is the honorable member for or against. 1898 KNM 0 0 HARRISON, Eli Mr E JAMES HARRISON - I will tell you what I am for. I am for a clean conciliation and arbitration act which will properly restore conciliation to the arbitration machinery of Australia, free of penalties. Both sides should have their cases considered equally and they should be free of penalty. As I am reminded, the dog collar should be taken off them. Both parties should get together free of penalty to discuss their problems. In that way conciliation will be arrived at. The stage has been reached in Australia today where conciliation and arbitration are being completely disregarded. I know the sad example provided by my own union which, on 31st August 1962, was refused marginal increases by the full bench of the present Conciliation and Arbitration Commission. Now, at the end of two years, as the result of stoppages and information put before the Premier of Victoria, the members of my union have been granted increases of amounts up to 30s. a week. Increases had been denied to them by the Commission on 30th August 1962. What is the answer to this problem? What can trade union leaders say? This kind of thing will continue to happen until such time as employers and employees are put on an equal footing in respect of our conciliation and arbitration machinery. The conciliation commissioner would sit in with the parties to ensure that everyone was given a fair go and the employers would have to come to the meeting and take what was reasonable in respect of employees. Unless this is done, there will be a continuance of disputes such as the one involving General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd. Make no mistake about it; the unions will get some increase out of this dispute with that body. A few minutes ago the honorable member for Higinbotham (Mr. Chipp) asked me where I stand on this question. The policy of the union I represent and for which I stand firmly is conciliation and arbitration. But we have reached the stage under our system where the Premier of a State, in order to try to give some degree of justice, grants an award quite outside our own award and quite outside the Conciliation and Arbitration Act passed by this Parliament. Justice has been denied by the conciliation and arbitration machinery. Our present machinery has put the trade union movement back in this country to where it was long before the Second World War. Until such time as we overhaul the Department of Labour and National Service, and also our conciliation and arbitration machinery, we shall go from one bad spot to another in industrial relations, mainly because the Government has stuck to its view on penal provisions which, let me repeat, are the coward's castles for bad employers. In this way the present situation has arisen, and trade unions are taking the type of stand that is being taken with General Motors-Holden's Ltd. Trade unions cannot be pushed around. The dog collar cannot be put around them. You cannot get away with that. Until such time as those facts are realised, we will not obtain the type . of conciliation and arbitration in which we believe. 1899 10000 0 0 PETERS, Edward The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Peters - Order! The honorable member's time has expired. 1899 KVG Maribyrnong 0 0 STOKES, Philip Mr STOKES .- I wish to say something about the Department of Labour and National Service and particularly the national service section of that portfolio. The Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) has assured me on a number of occasions that he has kept on in his Department the key personnel who are necessary to enable him to amplify and build up at any time he is required to introduce a register for national service training. This is very wise and is the sort of thing which should be done. Unfortunately, this has not been done as far as the Department of the Army is concerned. The Department of the Army should have kept, in my opinion, the staff, instructors and officers necessary for a national service training scheme and have kept training them. These people should have been retained within the ranks of the Department when national service training was abolished in 1958. At that time, a measure was introduced which retrenched those personnel - got rid of them - and they were sent willy nilly to industry. The Department lost their ability to carry out national service training for the Army. This fact, to my mind, has been exemplified time and time again. The Minister for the Army (Dr. Forbes) stated in the House quite recently that national service training could not be introduced in the near future because the Army was short of sufficient officers and instructors to enable even an intake of very limited and moderate numbers. The position is that the ability of the Government to implement national service training has been catered for by the Department which will do the registration, but not by the Department which will train the people so registered. The Minister for the Army has said that a national service training scheme will take a good number of officers and instructors. I think he mentioned that 1800 officers would be needed to cover all demands. It is true that we have a Regular Army of a certain strength but we know also that it requires to be built up to an effective divisional strength. This has not been achieved by the voluntary system of enlistment, because enlistments have not increased despite the expenditure of quite large sums of money on recruitment advertising. I think the amount budgeted for in this respect this year is £750,000. If we are not obtaining personnel for the Regular Army, we certainly are not getting them in the Citizen Military Forces either. Most units in respect of other ranks are only about 50 per cent, of full strength. Everybody knows or should know that if ever we are required to mobilise we can move these Citizen Military Forces units only at such time as they are fully manned and that the man in the street who volunteers, or is called up on mobilisation, has to be properly processed and trained. This processing takes months and months, and at the present time we might not have months and months to spare. As far back as 1912, the late Andrew Fisher introduced a form of universal military training which was terminated in 1929 in favour of the voluntary system which has continued since then and which is the basis of our present C.M.F. Under this system, training was much the same as in the C.M.F. You had your night training periods, and you had your weekend and fortnight camps. Over a period of about two years we got fairly effectively trained people. The number of regular officers and instructors required was very small indeed. To each regiment would be attached one captain or lieutenant as an adjutant, one regimental sergeant-major and one regimental quarter-master sergeant from the Australian Instructional Corps. The Citizen Military Force unit supplied officers and non-commissioned officers - instructors and leaders - from its own ranks. Something must be done about national service training. I feel that we should introduce a system of universal military training that would always be with us - not one dictated by the strategic considerations of the day - and under which young single men between the ages of 19 and 26 years are called up for at least three years' active service, thereafter going on the reserve list. Some great advantages would accrue from the introduction of such a scheme. Firstly, under such a system, all those between the ages of 19 and 26 years who were medically unfit would be weeded out. Secondly, all those engaged in reserved occupations would be registered and their call-ups deferred. Thirdly, all processing such as the preparation of record books and pay books, the listing of blood types and even the giving of vaccinations could be done early. When people were eventually called up, the particulars noted in the national service register would make it easy to allot them to units in which the experience gained in their civil occupations could be used to the best advantage. Many people do not realise the detailed work involved in mobilising a unit. There is one difficulty that would be peculiar to Australia in the event of mobilisation. It relates to our large migrant population. Many of us do not realise the difficulties, due to language, to mention one factor, that would be experienced in any call-up or preparation of a manpower register. As a matter of fact, 19 per cent, of the 3.7 million births in Australia since 1945 were to migrant parents, and one in four of all the children under 21 years of age in this country today either was born overseas or has at least one migrant parent. The Department of Labour and National Service is ready and able to expand its activities in order to provide us with a manpower register, but the Army, which would be taking the majority of the people, maintains that at the moment it is not able to provide enough officers and noncommissioned officers as instructors. I suggest that all that would be necessary to implement a scheme such as I have suggested for the training of young men between the ages of 19 and 26 years would be perhaps 100 officers and between 600 and 700 instructors and other ranks from the Australian Regular Army. In view of the amount of support there seems to be at the moment for national service training, I feel that a scheme such as the one I have suggested would appeal to the public. It would not involve any question of a selective draft. Every young man between the prescribed ages would be called up. A further advantage of such a scheme would be that remote areas such as Darwin and Perth would have Citizen Military Forces units of greater strength than they have now. If we cannot have a major national service scheme, then at least let us have the scheme I suggest, because it would show our allies, especially the United States of America, that we were making some effort to shoulder our share of the burden. Under such a scheme, young men would be taken out of production in civil occupations for only 14 days in each year, compared with taking 15,000 men each year out of production under any other scheme. In these days of labour scarcity, I feel that my scheme would commend itself to the employer, the employee and to the general public. Another advantage would be that the young men called up and trained under it would provide a good source of recruitment for the Australian Regular Army. I feel quite strongly that, irrespective of any limited form of national service training which might be required to meet the strategic difficulties of the moment, we should, as a matter of military policy, introduce a scheme such as the one I have outlined today. As I have pointed out, all our young men would then be registered. Everything would be known about them. The unfit would be weeded out, the call-up of those engaged in reserve occupations would be deferred and all general processing and administrative work would have been completed. These things should be done in this country today. The public are most uneasy about the situation. The Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies) has said that we are living in a time of risk. There is tension abroad. If we are to give the general public of Australia a feeling of security, we must take some action. If we cannot have a full national service training scheme, then let us have the universal training scheme which I am advocating. If we adopt it, our manpower will be registered and all other preliminary work will be done. If it should become necessary to mobilise for any reason, we shall be able to do it quickly and effectively. I recommend the scheme to the Government. I hope that the Government will consider it, remembering that it would have no adverse effect upon a call-up for general national service training should that ever become necessary. If it were found necessary to have a selective call-up for one year or two years, the Government could still do that without being inhibited by a shortage of instructors and officers. In fact, my proposal would ensure that ample officers and instructors were available to carry out an effective national service training scheme if the strategic demands of the day made that necessary. 1901 K8B Kingsford Smith Smith 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr CURTIN . - As we are now discussing the estimates for the Department of Labour and National Service, I should like to take the opportunity to say something further about the proposition put forward recently by the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) for an adult training scheme. This infamous scheme is designed to do nothing other than break down the wages and working conditions of the members of the various craft unions operating in our community. Despite the fact that the employers, especially those engaged in the metal trades and the building trades, are making fabulous profits, they are still deter- mined, with the connivance of the Minister for Labour and National Service, to make further savage and vicious assaults on living conditions generally. As I have pointed out before, the Minister's statement about the shortage of craftsmen is, to say the least, inaccurate. The shortage of craftsmen is due solely to the greed of the employers and the action of the judges of the Commonwealth Arbitration Commission in stubbornly refusing to grant further marginal increases. Some years ago, a similar scheme was operating in the metal trades industry under the title "The Structural Steel Workers Award ". As the result of vicious attacks by employers, with the connivance of a judge of the Commission who is now deceased, wages were cut to a degree which caused grave discontent in the industry. I myself was one of the victims of these savage assaults which lasted for many years until organised labour succeeded in securing a consolidation of the various awards and a general improvement in wages and conditions. Of course, the clouds of war were hovering over the world, but now, since the termination of World War II and after a period of peaceful existence, the avaricious employers, with the able assistance of the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon), are redoubling their efforts to destroy working conditions and standards of living which now exist for members of the craft unions. Recently the honorable member for Mallee (Mr. Turnbull) asked the Minister a question and in his reply the Minister said - I have frequently pointed out to the House that there is a serious deficiency of skilled workers in this country arid that in the critical industries there are 10 vacancies for each person registered for employment. That illustrates what the honorable member for Mallee said. There is an immense deficiency which must be cleared up if development is to proceed at the rate at which the Government wishes it to proceed. I give the lie direct to the Minister's statement, and I repeat what I have said before, that I have statistics from my own organisation - the Boilermakers Society of Australia - which has closely examined the proposal put forward by the Minister and closely examined its own accurate records, particularly over the period from 1954 to 1963. This period was analysed by the Department of Labour and National Service. The Boilermakers Society found that in that period no fewer than 8,853 people left the Society and the trade, and that considerable numbers of these - thousands in fact - were still members of the Australian community. Despite this tremendous drift from the trade the overall membership of the Society in that period increased by 9,074. It is still increasing by about 800 a year. I would like honorable members to take note of these figures. In this period the Society, by relaxing its policy in connection with bona fide tradesmen, permitted no fewer than 7,315 workers to enter the Society as provisional members. These are people who have not served an apprenticeship in the trade but who have proved themselves capable of carrying out the work. They have come from lower-paid, unskilled or semi-skilled occupations to the more highly paid trade of boilermaker. However, the analysis shows that of these 7,315 workers no fewer than 5,634 have left the trade. The basic reason for this is that much higher wages can be obtained in other occupations. Another interesting point is that 60 per cent, of these people are in the 20 to 40 years age group. The trade unions have consistently tried to have the wages and conditions of tradesmen improved. Even more consistently this Government and the employers have endeavoured to maintain wages at unreal low levels. I claim that the Government itself is one of the worst offenders, as shown by an advertisement in the Sydney "Sun" on 30th September 1964. The advertisement was as follows - Tradesmen required for Garden Island Dockyard. Applications are invited for the positions listed (several vacancies in each trade). Peanuts! I got those wages 20 odd years ago when I was working at the trade as a boilermaker, and I would refuse, like- many thousands of the members of my organisation have refused today, to work for such low rates of pay. I think it is an insult to the average tradesman to ask him to work for such wages, and it is an insult perpetrated by the leaders of our Arbitration Court in offering workers such poor rates of pay on which to keep their families and maintain their homes. If the Minister believes that he can induce skilled tradesmen to work for such rates of pay he has another think coming. I can tell the Minister from my knowledge of what goes on within my organisation that if he wants to secure the necessary workmen for the Garden Island dockyard he must increase the rates of pay to a decent level. Much has been said in this chamber about the urgency of the adult training scheme so as to give employers the green light to help destroy the craft unions which are, in reality, the backbone of the trade union movement. Of course, we do not see the same enthusiasm, especially by gentlemen of the calibre of the member for the Mallee, for the extension of the scheme. Might I suggest that the Minister take steps to extend this scheme to cover other people - auctioneers, for instance? Everyone admits, and must admit, that we have some snide operators among auctioneers. Then, of course, there are estate agents. I think we should have an adult training scheme for estate agents. When we have due regard to the advice that the Government receives on economic matters, I think the adult training scheme could be extended to cover professors of economics. Our gaols are so full of criminals today that apparently our legal profession is very weak, so perhaps the adult training scheme could be extended to the legal profession. In this way we might provide more legal men. The scheme could be extended, too, to cover professional engineers and ' professional accountants. When one takes into consideration the number of companies which are going into liquidation one sees a need for a greater number of instant accountants and other professional men among the members on the other side of the House who are joining in the giant conspiracy to destroy the trade union movement generally. Do honorable members opposite realise the blood and sweat behind the construction of the sleek diesel monsters that travel our railroads, behind the graceful lines of our luxury liners that sail the great oceans of the world making luxurious travel possible? Do they realise what is necessary to construct the great cargo carrying vessels which transport our produce to all parts of the world? Do they appreciate what is involved in the construction of our aircraft carriers, battleships, destroyers and submarines about which our Minister for the Navy (Mr. Chaney) talks so glibly? Do honorable members opposite realise the work that goes into constructing our steel military vehicles - tanks and so forth - which are essential for the defence of Australia? Is the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) too naive to realise that without its skilled craftsmen Australia will remain undefended, despite the size of its Army or Navy, or does he believe that the instant tradesman he is going to create will be able to fill the bill? I would strongly suggest to the Minister that he direct his undoubted energies to inducing or directing the various captains of industry - despite the fact that they are great supporters of this Government - to engage their full quota of apprentices so that all sections of industry in Australia will be able to fulfil their obligations in the event of an emergency. If he directs his energies into that channel he may be sure that he will receive the full support of trade unions generally, which are most anxious at all times to forward the interests of our great nation. The Minister must remember that in the next six or eight weeks some 85,000 school leavers will be available for apprenticeship to the various trades. Let him bend his energies in this direction and see that the employers take their full quota of apprentices to ensure that Australia will at all times have sufficient craftsmen for her needs. I would like to remind the Minister of the many features agreed upon at the national conferences held by the Amalgamated Engineering Union in October and November 1962 for alterations to the apprenticeship system. The Minister should make a further study of the action of the Arbitration Court in fixing apprenticeship rates of pay. The court seems to accept the idea that apprenticeship rates of pay should be tied to the current basic wage. The paucity of apprenticeship rates of pay should be noted. A first year apprentice gets 42 per cent, of the basic wage. A second year apprentice gets 54.1 peT cent, of the basic wage. A third year apprentice gets 63.1 per cent, of the basic wage. A fourth year apprentice gets 95 per cent, of the basic wage. A fifth year apprentice gets 100 per cent, of the basic wage plus 44s. 6d. I am at a loss to understand how the court arrives at the decision in respect of the fifth year apprentice. Does the Minister not think that the court should base apprenticeship rates of pay on the tradesman's wage? May I urge that he suggest this method of fixing apprenticeship rates of pay to the honorable gentleman of the court? Marginal increases granted to tradesmen should be enjoyed by apprentices, but we find that apprenticeship rates of pay are loaded against the apprentices in favour of the employer who is already making enormous profits. The suggestions I have made would, if put into effect, help to increase the number of boys seeking apprenticeships in the various trades. The Minister should give some deep thought in the future to the conditions of employment and the wages of apprentices. He should have less concern for the avaricious employer who is making fabulous profits. Employers should not be allowed to make such large profits as they are making today. If I had time I would let the Minister know what the New South Wales Apprenticeship Commissioner, Mr. E. Boland, has to say on this subject. Mr. Boland is the man selected by the New South Wales Government to look after the welfare of apprentices in that State. The New South Wales Minister for Labour and Industry has stated - Selection of leading prize winning apprentices in connection with Apprenticeship Week 1964 has proved a difficult task for members of the Apprenticeship Councils. 1903 10000 0 0 FAILES, Laurence The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Failes - Order! The honorable member's time has expired. 1903 KCU Ryan 0 0 DRURY, Edward Mr DRURY .- I do not doubt for a moment the complete sincerity of the honorable member for Kingsford Smith (Mr. Curtin) but I challenge strongly the general line of his argument. It is not my purpose in the short time available to me this afternoon to try to traverse the various points put forward by the honorable member because I want to speak primarily on the estimates for the Department of Immigration. But first I must say one or two things generally about the points made by the honorable member. He said that we on this side of the chamber were joining in a general conspiracy to undermine the trade union movement. He must have been speaking with tongue in cheek when he said that because I am sure that he is aware that the Government, during its 15 years in office, has legislated in a number of ways to strengthen trade unions and the trade union movement. My mind goes back to the early 1950's. I recall that one of the first pieces of legislation introduced by the Menzies Government after the 1949 election had to do with trade unions and the introduction of secret ballots for the election of trade union officials. A glance at any page of any electoral roll will indicate, I suggest, that an overwhelming majority of electors are members of trade unions. Surely it stands to reason that a great many trade unionists support this side of politics. If this were not so we would never be able to form a government. I think the honorable member will have his work cut out in trying to persuade the vast majority of electors who support the Government that we are not the friends of the trade unionists. I hope the day will never come when we will seek to interfere with arbitration, rates of pay, awards, working conditions and so on. I believe that these matters come strictly within the sphere of operations of those who are appointed for the purpose. I hope that rates of pay, awards, conditions of work and so on will never become a political football in this National Parliament. I will leave the subject there because I want to say something about immigration. First I congratulate very warmly the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Opperman) and the officers of his Department on the result of the 1963-64 immigration programme. The result was magnificent - even spectacular. Those who are intimately concerned with the administration of our immigration programme deserve the nation's warm appreciation and thanks. The progress made in 1963-64 has been continued splendidly into the first quarter of the current financial year, which we are now considering, and I am absolutely convinced that the rate of progress will be maintained in the months ahead. In the June and July recess I had the good fortune to make a trip overseas. While abroad I took the opportunity to visit as many as possible of our immigration posts, not only in Britain but also throughout Europe and as far as Cairo. Without exception I was tremendously impressed by the calibre of our officers serving overseas and their staffs. I was impressed by the complete dedication to duty that I observed everywhere. These people do not work by the clock; they work in the interests of Australia. As far as they were concerned, no effort was too great. They obviously were sparing no effort to get the best migrants available to help to build up Australia. They are doing a grand job. I pay a warm tribute to all of our immigration officers who are serving us so well overseas. I am delighted to know that there has been a substantial overall increase in the appropriation for the Department of Immigration. I am particularly pleased to note the proposed increase in respect of migration officers in the various overseas countries from which we draw our migrants. On my visits to these offices I was very impressed with the efficiency not only of the Australian born staff but also of the locally recruited staff. As other honorable members who have had the opportunity to visit some of our overseas immigration posts will know, those posts recruit a number of personnel locally to assist, particularly with the difficult and intricate task of interviewing prospective migrants. One particular case comes to mind of a successful migrant from Italy who came to Australia some years ago. He eventually became a naturalised Australian citizen and joined the Department of Immigration. He was so wrapped up in the work of the Department and was so keen to do something to serve Australia that he accepted a posting in Italy. He is now employed in the Rome office as an interviewing officer. I did not see at any other post an officer who was doing his work more efficiently, more pleasantly and more satisfactorily than this gentleman to whom I have referred. I was tremendously impressed with the job he was doing and with the jobs that locally recruited officers were doing everywhere. The quality of prospective migrants deserves a special mention. I do not know whether I was especially fortunate, but I believe that the interviews that I witnessed were of the average kind. Without exception, the quality of prospective migrants to this country is uniformly high. This, I think, bodes well for the continuance of our very successful immigration programme. As one would expect, some of the posts have their difficulties. For instance, some of them have accommodation difficulties because the job has grown so quickly, the amount of paper work is so large and the staff has had to be increased proportionately. Naturally, those things bring in their wake some accommodation difficulties. But those difficulties are being overcome. Our migration officers certainly are .not allowing difficulties to stand in their way or to hinder them in the job that they are doing. I found uniformly great good will towards Australia. Although the Australian Government is not allowed to advertise for migrants in European countries, at least in most cases there is not active antagonism towards our drawing migrants from those countries. I believe there is plenty of scope for Australian companies and firms to advertise for migrants, skilled and otherwise, whom they may desire to attract. On 16th August last the Minister for Immigration made a very interesting statement on the current year's immigration programme. In that statement he said that in the current financial year Australia hopes to receive 127,000 new settlers, 75,000 of whom are expected to be assisted migrants. As honorable members know, it is very important for us always to keep a proper balance between skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled migrants. This is no easy matter. It involves keeping a constant watch on the figures. I believe that that is being done very successfully. Until fairly recently, the main emphasis has been on attracting skilled migrants, particularly those who are needed to fill gaps in the metal, electrical and building trades. Of course, there has been a good deal of emphasis, too, on attracting professional men and women to Australia. It must be recognised that our capacity for absorbing migrants is never constant. It changes from time to time - possibly from quarter to quarter and certainly from year to year. Nor is the availability of migrants from the various source countries always constant. Those facts create considerable adminis trative difficulties. But, as a philosopher once said, difficulties were made to be overcome. These difficulties are being overcome. In Australia, with a flourishing and expanding economy, at the present time we have an increasing demand for labour. The time is coming, if it is not here already, when we will be very short of even unskilled labour. It seems fairly clear that during the remainder of the current financial year there will be a substantial demand by Australian industry for more and more skilled workers, more and more semi-skilled workers and more and more unskilled workers. But, on present figures and present trends, so far as they can be judged, it seems that the flow of migrants in all categories, whom we need so urgently, will exceed last year's figure. I believe that during the months ahead we will need all the migrants whom we can possibly get, because our economy is moving forward so quickly. One fact that struck me very forcibly was the continued high rate of applications in Great Britain. This is really remarkable. During the northern summer months of June and July, there is normally a falling off in the application rate in Great Britain. I was very interested to ascertain the reasons that lay behind the continued high rate. First and foremost, the reason appeared to be the prospective migrants' concern for their children. They are concerned about their children's economic future. They see in Australia a grand opportunity for their children. I am quite convinced that that is the chief reason for the continued high rate of applications in Great Britain. I believe that it bodes extremely well for Australia during the remainder of this financial year and virtually ensures the success of our immigration programme once again. I was very interested recently to read a report of a statement by a very senior officer of Qantas Empire Airways Ltd. about a series of massive airlifts that is to take place between Great Britain and Australia during the balance of this calendar year. The statement, which was made by Mr. Angell, the Queensland manager of Qantas, was reported as follows - A total of 10,000 migrants will be flown to Australia between now and the end of the year. He made that statement at the beginning of this month. This is quite remarkable. No doubt it involves a tremendous amount of organisation. The airways are playing a vital part, just as the shipping companies are, in bringing more and more migrants to Australia as quickly and as effectively as possible. The report of Mr. Angell's statement went on to say - Qantas and B.O.A.C. have joined to make the massive airlift. Fifty-one of the special migrant flights will be operated by Britannias, which will leave London at the rate of about one every two days until the end of the year. Twelve special flights will be made by Boeing 707s and four by Comets. The special flights will bring about 8,000 migrants and a further 2,000 will travel on scheduled services. There seems to be no doubt that our net gain through migration during the current financial year once again will equal approximately one per cent, of our total population. Let me say how pleased I am that the Minister has been able to express our 1964-65 immigration programme in terms of settler arrivals. I believe that this gives a much clearer picture than it was possible to give in earlier years when the programme was stated in terms of permanent and long term arrivals. I support the Minister's recent plea to migrants who are entitled to apply for naturalisation but who have not yet done so. A large number of migrants - 250,000 at the present time - are eligible for naturalisation, but have not yet applied for it. I am sure that honorable members on all sides of the chamber will join with the Minister in hoping that greater numbers of migrants who are entitled to apply for naturalisation will do so during the current financial year and so acquire the benefits and rights of full citizenship. Finally, I pay a tribute to my colleagues on the Commonwealth Immigration Planning Council; to the honorable member for Sturt (Mr. Wilson) and the members of the Commonwealth Immigration Advisory Council; to the members of the Commonwealth Immigration Publicity Council; to the members of the Good Neighbour Councils; to Commonwealth Hostels Ltd.; in fact, to all the people who are contributing so splendidly to the success of our very important immigration programme. 1906 6V4 Grayndler 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr DALY .- In the few minutes at my disposal, I desire to address a few remarks to the estimates for the Department of Immigration. We on this side of the chamber take more than a passing interest in this Department because it was during the term of office of a Labour government and under the present Leader of the Labour Party that our great immigration scheme was inaugurated. It could be termed one of the most successful postwar schemes of our country. I think I should say that the respective Ministers from all political parties and the staffs that have been engaged in the Department since it began have made a great contribution to the success of the scheme. We have been fortunate in having Ministers from various political parties who have always been an inspiration to the Department in the things that have been achieved. I am on common ground with the honorable member for Ryan (Mr. Drury) when I say that the officers of our overseas immigration posts have also made a big contribution to the success of the scheme. Their dedication to their task, the manner in which they have approached it and their general handling of the complicated administrative problems associated with the scheme, particularly overseas, are things in which they may take great pride. My commendation - I am certain that it is echoed by every other member of the Opposition - applies to the previous secretary of the Department, the present secretary, Mr. Heydon, and the officers at all levels in the Department, for the manner in which they have approached their tasks. They have to handle problems which present great administrative difficulties and in respect of which it is not possible to please everyone. I think we should give praise whenever we can to those in the various spheres at home and abroad, from the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Opperman) down, who in their way contribute to the success of the scheme on which we depend so much. I do not say that mistakes are not made, possibly at the ministerial or the departmental level, but I think it would be safe to say that they are genuine mistakes. They may be miscalculations, misjudments or individual opinions, but at no time could it be said that mistakes have been deliberately made in an effort to restrict the programme which was commenced by Labour and which has been continued by the Government. I notice that the expenditure for this year will total £16,795,000. As the honorable member for Ryan said, substantial increases have been made in the expenditure on the immigration programme, lt is noticeable, for instance, that £10 million has been allocated for assisted migration this year. Perhaps the Minister will, in the course of the debate, give us an estimate of the various targets for the countries in which the £10 million will be spent. This information would be of interest to all honorable members. It would show the wide range of countries from which our immigrants come, and I intend to touch on this matter when I refer to naturalisation. One or two problems that affect the success of the immigration scheme need to be solved if we are to continue to attract in large numbers the types of migrants we want, and in this regard I refer to both skilled and unskilled persons. One major problem is housing. With other members of an Opposition Immigration Committee I have visited migrant hostels and I am aware of the problem we face. It is a very grave problem and could have a material effect on our ability to attract suitable migrants. Having in mind all the circumstances, I think the hostels provide all that is necessary as a temporary measure. But we will reach the ideal when we can say to intending migrants that a home will be available for them, either for purchase or for rental, within a very short time of their arrival here. Of course, we must ensure that our own people have the same opportunity to obtain suitable housing. At present, housing is not readily available either for migrants or for our own people. We all know of the huge waiting lists for homes in the various States. The position is aggravated by the fact that the Commonwealth evidently does not take full responsibility for the housing of immigrants. Some discontent is caused when people find that they may be in a hostel for longer than they expected or may not be able to get the type of house they would like. I suggest that the Commonwealth take full responsibility, by making additional grants to the States, for the housing of the people it brings into the country. At the same time, we must ensure that housing for those already living in Australia keeps pace with any immigrant housing scheme. In this way we would avoid the discontent that must arise if immigrants were given homes while others in the country were not able to find adequate housing. The provision of a home or the guarantee of a home for those coming to Australia as well as for those already here is to my mind fundamental to the success of our immigration scheme. I want to say a few words about naturalisation. The honorable member for Ryan said that 250,000 eligible immigrants had not been naturalised. That is the figure given to me by the Minister for Immigration in answer to a question on 3rd September. But included in this figure are some 50,000 children. It could be said, therefore, that in round figures we have 200,000 immigrants qualified for naturalisation who have not taken the opportunity to become naturalised. We could well ponder on the solution to this problem. I have a list of the countries of origin of the immigrants who have not become naturalised. It shows that included in the 200,000 are more than 29,000 Dutch people, 25,000 Germans, 29,000 Greeks, 87,000 Italians, 13,000 Polish and 15,000 Yugoslavs. These people are apparently qualified in every way to be citizens but have not taken advantage of the opportunity to become naturalised. What is the reason for this? I know that the Department has commenced inquiries, and the problem has been mentioned at Australian Citizenship Conventions held in Canberra. The number of these people in Australia always stays at about 200,000. As politicians, we have more than a passing interest in the problem, because these people are not taken into account, for instance, in the assessment of electors when electoral noun? daries are fixed. As members of the Parliament we are called upon to provide them with all the services we can, but they neither vote for nor against us and they do not participate in the political life of the country. But they enjoy the advantages of living here. If the 200,000 immigrants who are not naturalised were added to the list of electors, roughly another four or five electoral divisions would be established throughout the Commonwealth. This is an important aspect of the problem and, of course, I do not wish to canvass it now. However, it does show that the provision that electoral boundaries shall be determined by the number of people on the roll is out of date and that electoral boundaries should be determined by the number of people of all ages living in the area. If this were done, these people who have not become naturalised would be included in the figures used to determine the electoral boundaries. Apparently the Department of Immigration has not been able to find the solution to the problem of eligible immigrants not becoming naturalised. I do not suppose that we could insist on these people becoming naturalised. The voluntary approach apparently is preferred. But if we are to have constantly some 200,000 people not naturalised, though they are qualified, the voluntary approach will take a long time to be really effective. I think the Department is considering a possible solution to the problem, but I wonder whether it has ever considered sending a questionnaire to a cross-section of these people to ascertain why they have not become naturalised. If this were done we would have some understanding of their feelings on the subject. After all, naturalisation does not entail a great deal of trouble. I do not know what can be done to improve naturalisation ceremonies, but they should be pepped up a bit. Some of the ceremonies are rather gloomy. I do not know whether it is possible to have a band play at the ceremonies or some other feature of this type. As they are at present conducted some of the naturalisation ceremonies are not exactly an exhilarating experience. One night I calculated that if everybody spoke at a ceremony I attended, about 20 of us would have made speeches. I think only eight or ten of those present took advantage of the opportunity to make a speech. I do not say that speech making at these ceremonies deters people from becoming naturalised, but it is a factor associated with the ceremonies that might be curtailed. I want to say a word about a subject that is not exactly associated with European citizens. From time to time the Department faces problems that do not arise from our established immigration programme. Criticism is sometimes levelled at the Department for certain action it takes in regard to people who have overstayed a student's visa or a visitor's permit. It is sometimes said that the Department is acting harshly. I think that newspapers publish ing such criticism without knowing all the facts or caring to print all the facts of some of these cases do a great disservice to the country and are most unjust to the Department. I do not know all the circumstances of all these cases, but I have seen the Department and the Minister being unjustly criticised for asking some people to leave the country. In some instances I have known that the facts have been totally different from what has been published in the newspapers. I think the newspapers could well copy the American Press on matters of this nature. They would do better if they realised that those concerned are not trying to be unjust to these people but are trying to administer our laws in a reasonable way. Every honorable member knows, and every citizen should know, that anybody entering a country does so on certain conditions. When the time comes for such a person to leave the country he should not object if, he having broken the conditions of his entry, the Government accordingly takes action to see that the conditions are observed. Some years ago I was in Czechoslovakia. I had a permit to stay there for four days. It appeared .that I would not be able to get out of the country before my permit expired, because an aeroplane flight had been cancelled. I spent most of the fourth day trying to get a permit to stay longer; I had been told that I would have great difficulty staying in the country without such a permit. Students who come to Australia from other countries and who fail in their examinations may be asked to leave. Students who have completed the courses for which they were admitted to this country may be asked to leave, although they wish to stay here instead of returning to their own countries to give expression there to the learning and knowledge that they gained by their studies in Australia. I do not consider that any government, whatever may be its political complexion, can be blamed for asking such people to leave this country and for taking appropriate action to ensure that they do leave. Visitors to Australia have obligations to observe the terms and conditions laid down for the granting of entry permits, and they cannot be unduly critical of the Department of Immigration if it asks them to leave Australia because they have failed to fulfil their obligations. The Department, after all, is only discharging its responsibilities. I do not suggest that it necessarily is right in every instance in which it asks people to leave Australia, but I cannot agree with those who take the view that every person from overseas who is asked to leave Australia has a good case to remain here. All people from other countries who are admitted to Australia know, and should understand, the terms and conditions on which they are allowed to enter. I do not object to actions taken by the Department in trying to administer the immigration laws tactfully. The job is difficult and ticklish. I believe that the Department is at times subjected to unjust criticism by the Press as a result of actions that it has taken in endeavouring to discharge its responsibilities under the Migration Act 1958, which, I think, was passed by this Parliament unanimously. Time will not allow me to elaborate the subject further, Mr. Temporary Chairman. I just express again my thanks to the Department of Immigration on behalf of members of the Opposition's Migration Committee for the co-operation that the Department has extended to the members of that Committee in their efforts to examine the immigration scheme and objectively study its ramifications. I record the appreciation of all Australians who have seen the growth of the immigration scheme of the efforts of those immigration officers who have contributed to the bringing to Australia of more than 1,750,000 migrants since the war. Their efforts are appreciated particularly by migrants who have been able to come to this free country and participate in all that goes with our way of life. 1 hope that the Minister for Immigration will be able to assure us that something can be done to solve the housing problems associated with the immigration scheme. We should also like a list of the various targets set under the assisted passage scheme for the ensuing year. I sincerely trust that a wider range of skilled immigrants will be brought to Australia, for they can make a marked contribution to our progress as a fast developing country. 1909 KY7 Hume 0 0 PETTITT, John Mr PETTITT .- Mr. Temporary Chairman, like the two preceding speakers, I wish to congratulate the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Opperman) and his officers on the work that they have done and are continuing to do. Recently, I travelled from Western Australia to the eastern States on a migrant ship. In the course of the voyage, I came in contact with a number of migration officers on board. I wholeheartedly agree that wherever one comes in contact with officers of the Department of Immigration, whether in Canberra, in the various States or on board migrant ships, one finds that those officers are doing wonderful work and carrying their efforts far beyond what may reasonably be expected of them. This is particularly so on board migrant ships, where they are active early and late. I found that nothing was ever a trouble to them. Immigration has become big business in this country. The fact that the estimates for the Department this financial year total £16,795,000 is evidence of this. Throughout Europe, we have officers trying to recruit more migrants. The whole programme is tremendous, for it entails a great deal of planning, advertising, interviewing, selection, arranging of transport to Australia, education of the migrants for the conditions that they have to expect on arrival here, placing them in jobs when they reach this country and integrating them into the Australian community. All sorts of problems crop up in the process of integration into our community. I have spoken to a considerable number of social welfare officers about these matters. They have told me that the children of migrant families quickly become absorbed into our way of life and rapidly become Australians. This often poses problems in the home, for the parents feel that they have lost their children and that the children will not learn what the parents regard as their mother tongue. As a consequence, all sorts of pressures build up in the home. If we are to keep the immigration programme functioning smoothly, we must continue follow up procedures after migrants arrive in this country and achieve better understanding between migrant parents and their children who, possibly, are the most valuable migrants of all in the long run. The honorable member for Grayndler (Mr. Daly) said that housing of migrants presented problems. So it does. This is particularly so in New South Wales. The problems are not nearly so great in the other States, as far as I can ascertain. My inquiries suggest that not many migrants remain in migrant hostels or camps for any considerable time. The turnover is pretty rapid and very few families remain long. Where a man with a family is not quite certain that his job is suitable, there is a certain measure of inducement for him to remain in a migrant camp or hostel with his wife and family for a brief time until he feels settled in his work. This seems a sensible arrangement for there is provision for the schooling of the children and the training of the women in our way of life and methods of shopping. This is to the advantage of all concerned. As honorable members have heard, the immigration programme was eminently successful last year, for about 127,000 migrants were brought to Australia. Approximately 50 per cent, of these were active workers and a large proportion of the workers were skilled. I believe that, on the whole, those who have had anything to do with the immigration programme will agree that we are now probably getting migrants of better type than ever before, lt is not easy to get the right sort of migrants now because Western Europe is enjoying a boom. Admittedly, in the last few months, the number of applications received from the United Kingdom has increased greatly, but even that country does not look with favour on our taking many of its best and most skilled workers as migrants. As a rather interesting sidelight, I was told recently that West Germany had just had a team of officials in China looking for unskilled and semi-skilled workers. This indicates the shortage of workers in Europe and the difficulty that we shall have in obtaining skilled migrants. In Switzerland, one in four workers is a foreigner. West Germany already is competing with us for skilled workers. After I returned from my recent trip overseas, I spent several days at the Bonegilla migrant centre. I should like to pay a special tribute to Colonel Glynn, who is in charge of that centre, and who has made the job there his life's work. He is soon to retire and he expressed to me his great regret at having to leave the centre. He has done a wonderful job in trying to make the way of the migrant easier. He has done much to make the surroundings appear more welcoming and to make migrants more comfortable. Colonel Glynn has developed the centre as a lovely area on the banks of the Hume Reservoir, having planted thousands of trees and provided all sorts of amenities. He and the staff have gone out of their way to make conditions very much easier for migrants and to make them feel welcome while they are there. I sat in with several officers of the Commonwealth Employment Service while they were interviewing migrants for jobs. Some of these officers speak several languages and others have an interpreter. On the occasion to which I refer, the officers interpreted to me the statements made by the migrants in outlining their various qualifications. The experience was extremely interesting to me. One of the most striking features of the employment situation is the fact that there are six or eight jobs available for every skilled migrant. At ' the Bonegilla migrant centre, there are good schools for the chil-den. The members of the school staff, obviously, are dedicated to their work. I saw children of many nationalities joining together in Australian games and very quickly developing the kind of outlook that will make them valuable Australian citizens. No effort is spared to make the women folk feel that they are capable of playing their part in providing for their families and becoming integrated into the Australian way of life. All kinds of social amenities are provided, such as canteens, recreation halls and libraries. There are social workers doing their best to make things easier for the migrants and to help them generally. I believe the Minister and his officers are doing a tremendous job, but I do not think that the job finishes with them. I think that we as old Australians, if you like to use that term, have to play our part. Many problems crop up. One came to my notice recently in my own electorate. It is a matter I have discussed with a number of officers of the Department. I do not know the answer and the departmental officers do not yet know it. I refer to the problem posed by many single men who come here and take jobs, for instance with the Snowy Mountains Authority. They consider this a wonderful country. They can earn good money. They work a six-day week in conditions of ice and snow which they have been used to in their homelands. After a few years, when a migrant has amassed a tidy bank balance, he becomes a little unsettled and starts to look for a wife so that he can settle down. But we all know that there are just not enough women available in the Snowy area. As I said, I do not know the answer. I know what happened some time ago when the immigration authorities brought out girls from Greece as prospective brides. I do not think they will try that again. However, this is a very human problem and it must be solved if we are going to make our immigration programme completely satisfactory. Until we settle these excellent young men and have them rearing families we will not have completely solved our immigration problems. I have made suggestions about this matter from time to time. Some of them have not been too well received. I have thought that we might allow some of our naturalised men to go back to their original homelands and select brides. With some of them this might work quite well, but perhaps it would not be a satisfactory solution with others. But I still feel there is an answer to be found. I believe that some of the troubles that have arisen with certain political associations having overseas affiliations have resulted from the fact that young men cannot settle down. They drift to the cities and because they have nothing better to do they rejoin the old political organisations, some of which we do not welcome here. I believe we must give very serious thought to this problem. In conclusion, I want to make an appeal for more of our own Australian born citizens to do something about extending the hand of friendship to these immigrants who, after all, have taken a very serious step in leaving the land of their birth and coming across the world to live in Australia. We need them desperately if we are to hold and develop our country. As the previous speaker suggested, something might be done in the naturalisation ceremonies. I have attended a number of these. I represented the Minister at a ceremony in Canberra recently. Only last week I attended a ceremony at Junee. This is just a little town, but many of the people there turned out and gave a wonderful welcome to those who were being naturalised, and a social evening followed. We who have lived here all our lives could hold out the hand of friendship in this fashion to the immigrants. This is particularly necessary in the case of the womenfolk who spend their time in the home and have not the same opportunities of muting with others as have the children and the men of the families. Our great immigration programme is of vital importance to this nation. It is something that concerns all of us. I think we must all consider again our own parts in the programme. The immigration authorities and the Minister are doing an excellent job, but they cannot do it properly without our support. 1 commend the Minister and his officers for their excellent work. 1911 KDV Newcastle 0 0 JONES, Charles Mr JONES .- I shall deal with the estimates for the Department of Labour and National Service, with particular reference to the scheme proposed by the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) for the training of apprentices and to the supplementary adult training scheme that he has suggested and on which he has prepared a paper. The scheme envisages that the adult trainees will undergo a six months' technical training course, after which they will move into industry and from then on receive practical training. I have before me a copy of the curriculum prepared by the Broken Hill Pty. Co. Ltd. for the training of boilermaker apprentices in Newcastle. This course covers two years, and, of course, the apprentices during that time also spend four hours each week at the technical college. I have been critical of this company on many occasions. I have criticised its financial structure, the profits it has made and certain other aspects of the organisation, but I must admit that the company does a good job in training apprentices. It has a school in Newcastle for these lads. My colleague, the honorable member for Cunningham (Mr. Connor), will no doubt have some knowledge of what the company does along these lines at Port Kembla. However, I can tell the Committee that the company's school for apprentices in Newcastle is excellent. The curriculum covers two years for each apprentice, whether in the boiler-making trade, the fitting and turning trade or the electrical trade. This training is given to the boys at the time of life when they are most impressionable, just having left school. I challenge the Minister to convince the Conn t:ee that he can impart to adults in six months knowledge that the Broken Hill Pty. Co. Ltd. has decided takes two years for apprentices to acquire. If the Minister can do so then I will agree that he has a much better scheme than I think he has. A scheme involving only six months training will riot and cannot, in my opinion, be a success. There are other aspects of the scheme with which I strongly disagree. There is the provision as to the trades in which adults are to be trained. Then there is the composition of the Committee that the Minister has forecast. It will comprise a chairman appointed by the Department of Labour and National Service, two representatives from the Australian Council of Trade Unions and two other members who will advise the Minister for Labour and National Service. The position is, therefore, that there will be two representatives from the union, two representatives of the employers and a chairman appointed by the Department of Labour and National Service. In my opinion the unions will not accept this proposition for one moment, because the voting will always be three to two against the unions. In this Parliament we continually see the Minister displaying an attitude antagonistic to the trade union movement. In my view the members of the Minister's Department are also anti-trade union. The trade union movement would not be right in the head if it accepted this proposition and co-operated with the Minister in this scheme because it is obvious that the voting would always be three to two against the unions. That is why the unions will not have any part of the scheme. There are other aspects of this matter that I would like to refer to. This is a subject on which one could talk at great length. On page 4 of the publication circulated by the Minister on 9th May we find references to allowances for trainees. It is provided that trainees will receive, during the period of technical college training, a living allowance, supplemented if required to live away from home, and a fares allowance. They will also receive books and assistance in acquiring tools of trade. Why is it intended to give such preferential treatment to adult trainees when none of these advantages is enjoyed by the ordinary apprentice, who has to buy every technical book necessary for his training and has to buy every one of his tools? The Minister is prepared, in order to curry favour with somebody in connection with this scheme, to provide these things free of charge for adult trainees. Apprentices cannot even claim as a tax deduction the cost of purchasing books when they are attending technical college. On these figures it is obvious that the Minister is trying to make conditions as favorable as possible for adult trainees, while completely disregarding conditions which should be granted to apprentices while they are serving their apprenticeship and undertaking their training. I refer now to the Commonwealth role in training apprentices. I have prepared, from information supplied to me by various Ministers, a table showing the number of apprentices in the building, electrical and metal trades, the Postmaster-General's Department, Commonwealth Railways, Department of Works, Department of Supply, Department of the Navy, Department of Air, Department of the Army and Department of Interior. With the concurrence of honorable members I shall incorporate the table in " Hansard ". As the table has been incorporated in "Hansard" I shall not refer to all the figures. However, at page 6 of the publication that he circulated the Minister said that Commonwealth departments and authorities have taken more apprentices, so I shall cite some figures to show what the position is. In the table I have shown figures for the last three years for the Postmaster-General's Department, Commonwealth Railways, Department of Works, Department of Supply and Department of the Navy. Unfortunately I have not the 1962 figures for the Department of the Navy, but I do have the figures for 1963 and 1964. Therefore, for the departments that I have mentioned I can give the figures accurately for 1963 and 1964 only. In 1963 the departments I have mentioned employed 8,980 tradesmen, whereas in 1964 they employed 8,875. In 1963 those departments employed 1,841 apprentices, and in 1964 they employed 1,839. On those figures alone, two apprentices fewer were employed by Commonwealth departments in 1964, so I fail to see how the Minister can honestly and conscientiously make the claim that Commonwealth departments and authorities are employing more apprentices. The Commonwealth is one of the worst offenders so far as the quota is concerned. It does not employ its quota of apprentices. In 1962, on figures I have before me, the quota of apprentices for the Commonwealth was 3,121, but the Commonwealth was employing 1,799 under its quota. In 1963, when the quota for the Commonwealth was 4,216, it was employing 2,435 under its quota. In 1964, with a quota of 4,214, it is 2,393 under its quota. From those figures honorable members will see that in reality in 1964 the Commonwealth departments to which I have referred - P.M.G., Railways, Works, Supply and Navy - should have been employing an additional 2,393 apprentices. If the Minister and the Government were genuinely trying to employ and train apprentices they would have provided for young people who have not had the opportunity of being trained. Therefore, I say that the Commonwealth Government is one of the worst offenders in employing and training apprentices. It is time something of a practical nature was done to provide employment for these young people instead of the Government trying to introduce a scheme for adult training. In order to show the real position in industry today I should like to go quickly through some figures with regard to the Boilermakers Society of Australia which show the number of vacancies and the number of men who have left the trade. In 1963, for example, 2,380 joined the union and 1,229 left the union. It might be said that those who left the union were all old blokes who were getting out of the trade. I should like more time to enable me to go through this question in detail, but in the time available to me I shall give the Committee some idea of the ages of the people who left the union. In the September quarter of 1961, four people under 20 years of age left the union, 111 over 20 left the union, 97 over 30, 62 over 40, 12 over 50 and five over 60. In the September quarter of 1963, four under 20 left the union and 108 over 20, 77 over 30, 36 over 40, 8 over 50 and 6 over 60 left the union. Those figures show what is taking place. A young fellow completes his apprenticeship and says: "They have fooled me long enough. For five years I have been an apprentice. It is time I started looking about and got better employment with more money than I am getting at the moment." That brings me to the point that I want to make today. The real reason for the shortage of tradesmen in industry is that tradesmen are not paid enough money. On 22nd October 1963, I received an answer from the Minister to a question I had asked about margins for tradesmen. The answer revealed that on 15th May 1935 a 3s. marginal increase was granted. This brought the tradesman's margin to 41 per cent, of the then basic wage, which was £3 6s. On 23rd February 1937, which was the date of the last marginal increase before the war, a further increase of 3s. brought the tradesman's margin to 44.1 per cent, of the basic wage. On 18th April, 1963, the tradesman received a marginal increase of 10s., which brought his margin to £5 6s. That represented 34.8 per cent, of the basic wage, which was then £14 8s. With the recent increase of £1 in the basic wage the tradesman's margin as a percentage of the basic wage is only 34.4 per cent, or about 10 per cent, less than it was before the war. That is one of the major reasons for our shortage of tradesmen. If the tradesman's margin were restored to the percentage of the basic wage that it had in 1937 it would now be about £6 15s. 6d. Every time the unions make an approach to the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission for an increase in margins the employers, the Government and many other people are opposed to it If we want tradesmen and if we want to hold tradesmen and keep young fellows from leaving trades, as people have left the boilermaker's trade, the only way is to pay them more money. When it is realised that those young people can go out into unskilled occupations and in those unskilled occupations receive more money than they would receive as tradesmen, it must be appreciated that if we want tradesmen and want to hold them in industry and encourage the young fellows leaving school to accept an apprenticeship so that they will become tradesmen, the only way to do it is by paying them more money. I suggest that the present scheme for adult training proposed by the Minister will not work. The scheme is unacceptable to the trade union movement. I firmly and strongly support the opposition of the Electrical Trades Union of Australia, the Boilermakers Society of Australia, the Amalgamated Engineering Union, the building trade unions and all the other unions that are opposed to the Minister's scheme, because I believe for the reasons that I have outlined that the tradesman's margin must be increased. If the margin is increased we will get the men for industry. I know that the Minister has said in this chamber that there are insufficient school leavers applying for apprenticeships. All I can say is that in Newcastle early this year, after all the boys had been placed in apprenticeships, I carried out a survey of the high schools in Newcastle and found that 70 boys who had passed their intermediate and had sought an apprenticeship were unsuccessful. As a result, they went back to school and are now in their fourth year. I referred the cases of five of those boys to the Minister. 1914 009MA 0 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMahon - Three. 1914 KDV 0 0 JONES, Charles Mr JONES - I referred the cases of five boys to the Minister and it took him three months to find employment for only two of them. If the position is that there are insufficient young men available for apprenticeships today I believe the time is not far distant when young girls leaving school will have to be encouraged to take apprenticeships. When I visited Russia some years ago I found that in many industries there were as many women as there were men following the trades of boiler-making, fitting and turning, electrical, carpentry and all the rest of them. In the war years in Britain and in Australia we employed women in the craft unions to do the same work as men. They were employed as welders, fitters and turners. If you go through industry today you will find many women doing the same class of work as the men. I believe that they should likewise be given opportunities in those crafts. 1914 10000 0 0 STEWART, Francis The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Stewart - Order! The honorable member's time has expired. Mr. CHIPP (Higinbotham) 15.351. - I would have thought that there are few departments of the Commonwealth and, indeed, few portfolios, which require more humane understanding, and more tact, and which contain more complex problems than the Department of Labour and National Service. I would have also thought that the records of the present permanent head of the Department, the present Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) and, indeed, his predecessor, in the field of human understanding and human relations are quite outstanding. Their doors are never closed to any approach, whether it be made by a union or by an employer. It disturbs me to hear the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Jones) stand in his place in this chamber and attack not only those gentlemen but also the Department in its entirety allegedly for adopting an inhuman attitude towards unions. The honorable member for Newcastle alleged that this Department which has several great public servants at its head - I am forgetting about the Minister for the moment - is always on the side of the employer. It is all very well for the honorable member to make such an allegation. It is a very different thing for the honorable member to produce one bit of evidence to support that allegaion, which, of course, he has neglected to do. I wish to speak about the waterfront and the stevedoring industry in this country. I believe that here we find one of the most important problems facing the nation today. Why is it important? It is important because I believe that the events which take place at Port Melbourne, Fremantle, Pyrmont and the other waterfronts of Australia affect the lives of every family in this country. Firstly, Australia is an island continent and we are dependent for most of our commerce and livelihood on what comes in and what goes out in ships. We are one of the ten great trading nations of the world and the manner in which cargoes are loaded and unloaded is vital to our way of life. Secondly, our rate of development as a nation depends on our overseas balances. The behaviour of men on the waterfront has a vital effect on the price of our exports. We are told by the Department of Trade and Industry, as I have said before, that we must increase our exports by £300 million per annum in the next ten years or so. All these exports must leave the country via the waterfronts of this nation. To sustain our present immigration programme, we must increase our exports to the figure that I have mentioned. The third, and certainly by no means the least important factor, is defence. When we are committed to an emergency, most of our men and supplies must be loaded on the waterfronts of Australia. Therefore, we arc virtually in the hands of the employers and the employees in the waterfront industry. To give an example of the importance of this matter regarding defence, I wish to refer to a time a few months ago when a group of people, namely, the leaders of the Waterside Workers Federation of this country, made a political decision. The Federation believed that Australia as. a country should not send barbed wire to South Vietnam to protect the people in strategic hamlets. This union took upon itself to say: " We will not load this material for South Vietnam ". I remember vividly that in 1945 when I was a member of the Royal Australian Air Force as an aircrew trainee, I was pulled off my course in Western Australia and forced by the Government of the day to work on the Fremantle waterfront because so-called Australians at that time who were loading and unloading cargoes had struck in time of war. 1915 2V4 0 0 CAMERON, Clyde Mr Clyde Cameron - You are one of those? 1915 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr CHIPP - Yes, I am one of those. If you have any name to call me - and I know the word that is in your mind - let me say that I am proud to be a man who would load cargoes during war time to send to men in our fighting lines which apparently the honorable member's friends on the Fremantle waterfront decided not to do. 1915 2V4 0 0 CAMERON, Clyde Mr Clyde Cameron - It is all right. We just want to know what you are proud of. 1915 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr CHIPP - Honorable members would have liked to know your real political beliefs. However, if the problems of this industry are so important, are we satisfied with the present conditions on the waterfront? I say as a member of this Parliament that I am not satisfied with those conditions. I am not satisfied with the performance of the labour force and, at the same time, I am not satisfied with the performance of the employers as far as the waterfront is concerned. On the question of the labour force, may I make some quotations from the report of the Australian Stevedoring Industry Authority for the year ended 30th June 1964. This report was published only a few days ago. It; is littered with criticisms of the industry both from the labour force point of view and the employers point of view. On page 8, it says - Notwithstanding the improved loading rates for some cargoes, the lower handling rates for others, which include exports, is a matter of serious concern. At page 11, the report goes on to say - for the nine months ended 30th March last, although waterside workers represent 0.6 per cent, of all civilian and salary earners, the time lost by them for that period accounted for 7.1. per cent, of the working days lost by all industries in Australia. I suggest that this paragraph alone is sufficient to cause us concern. In the month of August of this year, 114,000 man-hours were lost on the Australian waterfront. This compares with an August average over the last three years of 21,000 man-hours lost. Almost six times the number of man-hours were lost in August of this year compared with the normal monthly August man-hours lost. Why were these man-hours lost? One of the reasons why a great stoppage was held was that members of the Waterside Workers Federation of this country decided to go on strike because they objected to the apartheid issue in South Africa. This group of people, being responsible to no-one but themselves, decided to produce absolute chaos in at least five ports in Australia on an issue which is completely outside their jurisdiction. I visited the Sydney waterfront a few weeks ago together with members of the Government Members Industrial Relations Committee of which I have the honour to be chairman. I wonder when the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Clyde Cameron) was last on the waterfront in this country. I sometimes wonder whether the response he would get there would be similar to the one he would get if he ever returns to New Guinea. However, when we were on the Sydney waterfront the number of ships tied up was six, but the average number of ships usually tied up is thirty. That morning, when I left my home in Melbourne, Port Phillip Bay was littered with ships which had been tied up by members of this Federation which, I say now, is dominated by members of the Communist Party. 1916 2V4 0 0 CAMERON, Clyde Mr Clyde Cameron 1916 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr CHIPP - The honorable member for Hindmarsh makes a facetious remark. lt is devastating to me to find a member of the front bench of the Labour Party who seems to find some amusement in the fact that the waterfront of this country is controlled by members of the Communist Party whose philosophy is dedicated to overthrow this Government by force. One would have expected the honorable member to set the lead to members of this union and not to encourage them by poohpoohing any criticism of them. I will give some figures about the Waterside Workers Federation. As far as I can gather, nine of the 28 members of the Federal council are card carrying members of the Communist Party. 1916 2V4 0 0 CAMERON, Clyde Mr Clyde Cameron - One-third. 1916 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr Chipp - There are 15 members of the Australian Labour Party on that council, and the four other members of that body are not known. The honorable member for Hindmarsh says "one-third" as if it does not matter, but I wonder how those members of the Communist Party were elected to this council. I wonder whether any of them stood on unity tickets with members of the Australian Labour Party of whom 15 are members of this council. There are seven members of the Communist Party on the executive of the Sydney branch and six among the 15 members of the Melbourne branch executive. Are these men so badly treated that they should strike so much? Are they stood over by a 19th century boss who will sack them at a moment's notice? Do they live in constant fear of being dismissed by their employer and being unable to earn a just wage? I have not the time to read out some of the privileges that the members of the Waterside Workers Federation enjoy, but I say that the members of this union, man for man, enjoy more privileges than do the members of any other union in Australia. But, whilst they have the greatest number of privileges, their conduct is the most irresponsible of all unionists in this country. 1916 2V4 0 0 CAMERON, Clyde Mr Clyde Cameron - That is a great boost for their Communist officials. 1916 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr CHIPP - The honorable member for Hindmarsh can champion the Communist officials of the Waterside Workers Federation if he so chooses, but I say to the decent men in the Federation: "Despite the fact that some Communists may, by their militant action, have got you privileges better than those enjoyed by any other union, that is not everything, because we are playing for very big stakes in this matter ". What is the solution of this problem? A great deal of the fault lies with the shipowners and the stevedores. These people seem to be singularly reluctant to come forward with any concrete proposals as to how the Government can assist in cleaning up this industry. What action can be taken by the Government unilaterally? This is a difficult question. I ask the Government to examine the constitutional issues involved in writing into an act of this Parliament a provision making it unlawful for Communists to hold office in any union. I ask honorable members, both on this side of the chamber and on the Opposition side, to show some courage and to stand up against the Communist scourge which threatens to take us over. The tragic truth is that this nation is being held to ransom on its waterfront at this point of time by members of the Communist Party. Let rae turn to the employers in the few minutes I have left. The Australian Stevedoring Industry Authority states in its report - During the year, delays in the performance of stevedoring operations due to the failure of registered employers to comply with their obligations numbered 75 and caused a loss of 3,611 man hours. That is not a record of which the employers can be proud. I say that too many stevedores try to stevedore the ships from plush offices five miles down the town, away from the job. I say to the stevedores: " For too long too many of you have been operating on a cost plus system, not caring a hoot about what the unloading of cargoes costs the community. " I say to them that there are several honorable members opposite who would dearly love to nationalise this industry. That idea is being punted around this place at the moment. I say to the stevedores that while they have a Government which champions free enterprise, while they have a Government which believes in free enterprise, they have the opportunity to do something to prove their bona fides. I make a plea, not only to the stevedoring companies but to companies generally, to improve the management of their concerns. Too many companies are appointing to their boards of management outside directors who have no knowledge or experience of the industry concerned. There is a form of nepotism creeping into Australian industry today. If you are a retired senior Army officer, or if you know somebody else, it is easy to get a seat on a board at a lucrative fee. That is just not good enough in a developing country. It does not happen in the United States of America. If we are to increase our productivity then we - management, labour, members of Parliament and, indeed, all sections of the community - have a joint task constantly to examine ourselves, our efficiency and our sense of responsibility. 1917 K0O Cunningham 0 0 CONNOR, Rex Mr CONNOR .- I would have considered the remarks of the honorable member for Higinbotham (Mr. Chipp) to be facetious if I did not know the man, his antecedants and his proclivities. I would like the honorable member to come with me to Port Kembla, the sixth port of this nation. I would like him to accompany me on a tour of a major industrial port. I have the honour to represent nearly 800 waterside workers, all good workers, good citizens and loyal Australians. To a man, they are supporters of the party to which I have the honour to belong. I would like the honorable member for Higinbotham to come with me to, say, No. 3 Wharf at Port Kembla harbour, to cough, spit and do his best to work in the sulphuric acid fumes which come with every southerly wind from the fertiliser plant at Port Kembla. 1917 3V4 0 0 CHIPP, Don Mr Chipp - I have done it at Perth. Have you ever done it? I have. 1917 K0O 0 0 CONNOR, Rex Mr CONNOR - Yes. I would like the honorable member to come with me when the westerlies are blowing for six months of the year and the iron ore dust is cutting out the eyes of these men. I would like him to come with me when the north-easterlies are blowing and when men's lungs are being filled with coal dust from another plant. I would like him to come with me to the berth of Australian Iron and Steel Pty. Ltd. at the inner harbour, where men are paid special dirt rates because of the difficulty they experience in breathing owing to the iron ore dust with which the atmosphere is saturated. The waterside workers of my constituency have to their credit an act of patriotism which not even the ineffable remarks or sneers of the honorable member for Higinbotham can erase. They had sufficient political prescience and sufficient national consciousness to advocate the banning of the exportation of pig iron to Japan. They knew our enemies, and they knew our friends. These same men knew what was needed for Indonesia, and they advocated liberation for that country. These same loyal Australians are today advocating the equality of man - and they are quite correct - in their stand on apartheid. There is no industry in which the employees have a better knowledge of what is happening in other parts of the world than the waterfront industry, because the men working on the waterfront are in direct daily contact with the crews of ships of all the nations of the world. They know exactly what is happening, and all credit to them. Lest the honorable member for Higinbotham should mislead the Committee, I should like honorable members to study the improvement in the loading rate of various cargoes at Port Kembla. These men on the waterfront see before them the menace of mechanisation. They can see what has happened in the sugar ports of Queensland with mechanisation. The days of lumping are gone, the days of bulk loading are in and the days of employment for hundreds of waterside workers have ended. These men can see the mechanised hatches; they can see the container methods of shipping cargoes today; they can see the roll-on roll-off ships that are now in operation; they can see today the menace of mechanisation in every phase of navigation. What is the alternative? Where will they turn? They are men who have been trained to do waterfront work and nothing else. It is difficult to absorb them in other fields of activity. These men are loyal Australians. I fling back in the honorable member's teeth the base accusations he has made. Shame on him, shame on the party that he represents and shame on the principles that he advocates. Shame on an honorable member who will get up in this Parliament and sneer at, smear and traduce good, honest, decent Australians. Shame again. The main subject of this discussion is not the waterfront. I fully appreciate the usual red herrings which the honorable member tried to introduce to save his Minister from embarrassment. The main issue today is the capacity of industry to pay increased wages, and a monumental struggle is being waged at General MotorsHolden's Pty. Ltd. It is a monumental struggle indeed, because this Government will be hoist with its own petard. It is a matter of common knowledge that the Australian Council of Trade Unions will be again applying to the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission for an increase in the basic wage consequential on the price increases which have been proved in the two most recent quarters. When the application comes before the court the Government's advocates will be there stressing the inability of industry to pay, and opposing an increase accordingly. What company is there in Australia today better able to pay increased wages than General Motors-Holden's, a company whose profits are an affront to our collective social conscience? It is a foreign company, incidentally, which is reputed to get a gross profit of at least £200 to £250 from every unit it manufactures. This is the company which the honorable member for Higinbotham, the Minister and honorable members opposite collectively would have us believe cannot afford to pay. A new principle is certainly being evolved; and the pattern is very clear in the United States of America where the United Automobile Workers, led by Walter Reuther, have established the principle of collective bargaining. The days have ended when you can frustrate and hold up unions and delay indefinitely wage claims. Let them be brought to the bargaining table. Let the employers pay the worker his fair due. All credit to the Australian worker for what he has done in the way of production. The Holden car is something of which he can be proud. The establishment of the works is something of which we can be proud, but the profits and the distribution of the profits are a scandal and a shame. 1918 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr Cockle - Get your facts straight. 1918 K0O 0 0 CONNOR, Rex Mr CONNOR - I have my facts absolutely correct, and the honorable member knows it. You will have the opportunity, if you so choose, to rebut them. We hear much of conciliation and arbitration. We all pay lip service to what is alleged to be a wonderful principle. But, in point of fact, is there arbitration today? Arbitration means an agreement by two people on equal terms, of equal status, to forgo voluntarily the normal processes of law and to submit to a chosen umpire points of difference between them. What is the position with regard to our so-called arbitration system? It is a system of coercion. Australians can be led, but they can never be driven. The coercion that exists today is a shame and a scandal. I have met trade unionists from other parts of the world, including the United Kingdom, and they look with amazement at our system of arbitration with its penal provisions. They look with amazement at our system of penalties. The right to strike is a fundamental right. It is a right which will never be abandoned by the trade union movement. It is a right which will be exercised fairly, decently and with just cause. Today trade unionists do not strike unless they have an adequate cause and until after proper negotiation. Workers do not want to be met by an iron fisted refusal to negotiate. They do not want to be dragged into this coward's castle to which the honorable member for Blaxland (Mr. E. James Harrison) so ably referred - a place of delays, a place of frustration, a court of pains and penalties, a court presided over by jurists, eminent men in the legal profession undoubtedly, but what knowledge have they of economics or of the struggle in everyday life? What knowledge of that have honorable members opposite? How many of them even hold a ticket in a trade union? Let them stand up and be counted. There is not a single trade unionist in their ranks and yet they presume to tell us, the chosen spokesmen of the trade union movement, how the trade union movement should run its organisation. Sitting suspended from 6 to 8 p.m. 1919 K0O 0 0 CONNOR, Rex Mr CONNOR - To resume my comments on the appropriations now before the Committee, I would like to remind honorable members of the urgent need, as expressed by all responsible spokesmen in all sections of industry, for a complete overhaul of the system of conciliation and arbitration. The system of fixing wages and of settling disputes is, to say the least - to place the most charitable interpretation on it - antiquated in the extreme. As I said before the sitting was suspended, we have at present a system which is not one of arbitration at all. The word " arbitration " should be excised from the Act. The essence of arbitration is for equal parties with equal rights and status voluntarily to forgo the normal processes of litigation and submit their common issues in dispute to the arbitrament of an umpire duly appointed by them and whose awards they are prepared to accept. To put the matter in a nutshell, arbitrators do not impose sanctions. Yet sanctions are the very lifeblood of today's so-called system of arbitration. Before the suspension of the sittingI was referring to the types of jurists who are appointed to the arbitration court. I have a very great respect for the judiciary. Having had legal training I understand the requirements of the judiciary in the normal courts but when you are dealing with matters relating to wages, costs and profits you are in an entirely different sphere from that of deciding proprietary rights, of awarding damages for actionable wrongs, of determining breaches of the peace and of enforcing statutory and common law obligations upon individuals. I think the germ of the correct idea was incorporated in 1947 in the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act by the Chifley Government, which referred to the need for a special committee. Section 81aa. enacted in 1947 read- (1.) For the purposes of this Act there shall be an Office of Economic and Industrial Research. (2.) The functions of the Office shall be - to collect and compile, in accordance with the directions of the Chief Judge, information which may be of assistance to the Court and to Conciliation Commissioners in the exercise of their powers and functions under this Act; to keep information so collected and compiled up to date; and to carry out research in respect of such matters as the Chief Judge directs. The point is this: Judges are not omniscient. In the complexities of modern society it is utterly impossible for judges, notwithstanding the breadth of their experience on the industrial commission, to adjudicate on the complexity and diversity of the problems associated with a modern, expanding and extremely diverse industrialised society. I think - this is only my opinion - that there is a strong case for special tribunals to consider special industries. That may be a solution to the problems of the automotive manufacturing industry.I cite as examples of the operation of such tribunals the Australian Stevedoring Industry Authority and the Coal Industry Tribunal. In those cases special tribunals with special functions deal with the special problems of highly specialised industry. It is impossible today for judges to be economists and more and more the work that is being referred to them is work of an economic nature. In every branch of law there is a tendency for some pre-trial assessment and definition of the issues with a view to streamlining procedures. Today the average working man is frustrated and disappointed. He realises that unfortunately a majority of employers are prepared to take advantage of the delays and procrastinations associated with formal proof in a formal court that has evolved a most complex and unnecessary system of industrial jurisprudence. 1920 KDN Calare 0 0 ENGLAND, John Mr ENGLAND - If I were asked what I considered to be the three most important decisions to be made by the people of Australia - decisions with the most far reaching results - I would say that they were, first, what is to be done about Australia's defence; secondly, what is to be done about Australia's shortage of skilled labour; and thirdly- this may be rather surprising - what is to be done about Australia's wool marketing system. The state of our overseas balances is vitally important to Australia and certainly our system of wool marketing affects those balances, but it is not appropriate in this debate to refer to wool marketing. However, the first two decisions to which I referred are very much appropriate to the estimates now before the Committee. Today we see great competing pressures at work in our rapidly expanding economy. Tremendous demands are being made for professional men, tradesmen and even for unskilled labour. Another section of our manpower is engaged in training at our universities, our technical colleges and our trade training centres. In addition many apprentices are iti training and there is room for many more to be trained. Further competing pressure on our resources of manpower comes from the Defence Forces. I refer here to our permanent Defence Forces. The greatest single problem standing in the way of development and defence in this country is not lack of capital but of manpower. Having discussed this problem with some unions I think I am in a position to express disappointment that management, the Government and the trade union movement are not making more progress together than they are in expediting training in skilled trades, whether that training be by the traditional method of apprenticeship or by some new method yet to be devised. It is obvious that more planning is absolutely necessary. We know that to a . certain extent some planning is being done. I am not talking about drafting; I am talking about planning. Planning is necessary but how can we possibly plan unless the planners know exactly what personnel they have to work with? I do not mean only numbers of men, but the categories into which they fall. We must know who are skilled, who are professional, who are unskilled, who are in training, who are at universities and who intend to go to universities. This is the type of information that is required before anybody can give an accurate answer to the problem or produce a workable plan. In this regard I give praise to those responsible for the demographic surveys that have been taken out but I would like to see the surveys provide more information. At present they do not necessarily give the occupations of each group. They do not show the number of students who are in training at any particular time. They do not show how many students intend to continue with university studies. These are some of the problems with which we must contend at the moment. Having made those remarks I think it is advisable to try to come up with a solution. I suggest that the Government should set up a national manpower register. In this regard I agree to an extent with the remarks of the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Stokes) but I extend my remarks over a sphere wider than he covered. As I saw it, he was dealing mainly with the military forces. But our manpower problem today goes right through from the time when young men and young women leave school, through their tertiary education, apprenticeship training and trade training and their work, whatever it may be. In view of the great demand for manpower, not only for defence but also for employment in this rapidly expanding economy, we must have more information, and more accurate information, about whom we have not to play with but to work with. This scheme should be carried to the stage of the first registration of whatever age groups are decided upon by the Government to suit the conditions pertaining at the time. In many instances, the men in the right age group could go to the stage of a preliminary medical examination and blood test. That does nobody any harm. This registration would provide valuable information. For the moment, I am not suggesting that the Government should draft people all over the place. The information would be valuable to the people who are interested in education and the provision that has to be made for it in the future, to the people who are interested in filling the ranks of the Army, and to the people who are interested in skilled trade training. The registration would give the figures. It would sort out the medically unfit. As far as the Services are concerned, it would sort out the conscientious objectors. It would give the number of students, the number of apprentices and the number of people who are interested in military service. I emphasise that I am talking about a register and I am talking about a call-up. I am not talking about drafting anybody anywhere at this stage. Having done that, the Government should arrive at a manpower policy for the whole Commonwealth. When I say " manpower ", I am referring to young men and young women throughout the Commonwealth. 1 am not referring only to military service. The policy need not necessarily be disclosed. Information about it could be kept for use by those who want to use it. As we develop our military strength and as further equipment comes into use, I believe that we will come to the time when we will have to start thinking in terms of a bit of security. We should come to a decision on reserved occupations. The list of reserved occupations will have to be changed from time to time. It must be amended constantly to fit in with the circumstances as they exist or as they are predicted to exist. Otherwise we will end up with a lot of unskilled people in the Army. That is not fair to the Army and I suggest that it is not fair to the young people who have not been fortunate enough to have the opportunity, or have not taken advantage of the opportunity, to further their education. That would apply if there were any drafting into the Army. This would involve a very firm decision by the Government on the type of enlistment that will be adopted. I think we will hear more of that later, in the debate on the defence estimates. It would involve having a definite policy on the type of enlistment, and making definite decisions on the size of the Navy, the Army and the Air Force and the types of forces - the Regular Army, the Citizen Military Forces, the reserves and the school cadets. Until those decisions are made we will not get full value from this manpower register. Having set up the register and adopted a policy, it will then be the task of the Government to go out and tell the people exactly what the position is and what is required of them. That should be done by means of a call to the nation. It has been my experience - I am sure that this has been the experience of all honorable members - that Australians have a reputation of always being able to stand up to the task when called upon. I believe strongly that if we convince Australians of the need to work in any direction - whether in the forces or in skilled occupations in the realm of secondary production - they will respond. If the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) were in the chamber and if he cared to speak, I know that he could assure honorable members and the Australian people that his Department is geared to carry out this work at relatively short notice. In conclusion, I say that this work could be done at not a great cost to the Commonwealth. This national manpower register would be comparatively cheap insurance for the country. It would be to the national advantage in the military sense, for a start, and also in the industrial sense and the economic sense. It would give accurate figures to work on in the future. I believe that it would be an outstanding thing and good for the national morale. 1921 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser . - I refer to the estimates for the Department of Labour and National Service. Approximately two months ago, in the House, I addressed to the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. McMahon) a question about the conditions of employment of managers of Commonwealth hostels in Canberra. The question, to say the least, was not well received. The answer given by the Minister was certainly not a reply to the question that I had posed. I propose to make some further remarks on that subject. I asked the Minister - Is it true that there is no industrial agreement covering conditions under which hostel managers are employed by Commonwealth Hostels Limited? Is it true that some hostel managers are required to work a minimum of 60 hours a week, and in many cases more, with no payment for overtime and with only one and a half days a week ofl! duty, and then provided only that a relieving manager is available? Is it true that hostel managers have been denied the opportunity to negotiate with the company on their conditions of employment? Is it also true that managers who have sought to form an organisation to negotiate with the company have been dealt with summarily by transfer to remote areas? Will the Minister inquire into the conditions of employment of hostel managers, and will he arrange for hostel managers to present evidence without fear of reprisal oi victimisation? The Minister's answer was - it is the policy of this Government to give the power of management to Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. That has been done. Personally, I have complete confidence in the board of Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. to manage that organisation satisfactorily. If what the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory says is true, what a regrettable fact it is that he has not personally come to me to explain the matter and to ask me whether I would write to Sir Tasman Heyes to let that gentleman know what has been said. These are very severe accusations and are of a type which should not be made if they are not true. I have the gravest doubts whether the statement made by the honorable member can be substantiated. If he would care to let me have a letter about it, I will send that letter immediately to Sir Tasman Heyes and, when Sir Tasman replies, his reply will be forwarded to the honorable member. I did not write to the Minister because I have a feeling that it is appropriate to raise these matters in the House by way of a question addressed to the responsible Minister and to expect a reply thereto. I would think that if the Minister regarded these accusations as grave he would have initiated some inquiry and elicited some information about the conditions under which hostel managers are required to work. In fact, I believe that the Minister has been provided, from another source - a direct and reliable source - with evidence that what I said in the House was true and remains true. I propose to refer to letters that I have received. A letter dated 20th August 1964 reads as follows - As ex-hostel management, my husband and I, feel very strongly, how true and accurate your statements regarding the managers of Commonwealth Hostels were, and I am therefore enclosing a copy of the letter which I have today sent to the Minister ' for Labour and National Service. I might add that I have never come across a concern more arbitrary or less co-operative with its employees than Commonwealth Hostels Limited, and because of this strong feeling I am prompted to add my small voice to the cause of the present managers. The letter sent to the Minister for Labour and National Service I think can be read appropriately. It says - I refer to a question which I understand was asked in the House, by Mr.1. R. Fraser M.H.R., regarding the hours of duty of managers of Commonwealth Hostels Ltd., and feel that I cannot let this matter pass without my comments. My husband and I were in joint management of a Canberra hostel . . . during a period which included the administration of the Department of the Interior and also Commonwealth Hostels Ltd., and can say without any fear of contradiction, that the hours of duty of hostel managers are a minimum of 60 hours per week. Added to this there is no time of night or day when a manager is not at the beck and call of guests, and as he fives on the premises, there is no way of avoiding this, apart from leaving the premises. I therefore humbly submit, as a completely impartial onlooker, that some consideration be given to this matter of hours of duty. I received a telegram from Hotel Managers, New South Wales, which reads - Your continued action greatly appreciated. I received a letter from another manager of a Commonwealth hostel in which he said - . . there are one or two most important facts that escaped me at the time for your information. He then referred to the hostels in Canberra and the increase of the number of beds in the hostels. He said that the number of beds had been increased over the past two years. The number at Hotel Acton had increased by 100, at Lawley House by 153, at Brassey House by 86, at Narellan House by 60 and at Gorman House by 6, making a total increase in beds of 405. The letter went on - Yet in spite of this increase managerial staff has not increased at all. Further it is understood that the company made a profit of over £70,000 last year. This was only possible by the efficiency of managers. We are supposed to qualify for annual increment of 12s. 6d. per annum. These have been handed out very sparingly. In my case after five years I have yet to receive one. Gorman House increased profit last year by £1,500. Further although in one man hostels we are on call 24 hours a day 51/2 days a week, in the two man hostels which cater in some instances for over 300 guests there is only one manager on duty for three days each week. So Sir it really makes one wonder how long this ridiculous situation can go on, but it is sure to get worse unless someone like yourself can do something to help. Again Sir I can assure you that every Canberra manager is most grateful for your efforts on our behalf . . . I have read those letters to show that there is unsolicited evidence of the accuracy of the matter I raised with the Minister and I repeat that I understand the Minister has received other evidence confirming what I had to say. Some time ago I had occasion to speak about the management of hostels in Canberra and the conditions provided for guests in the hostels. I referred to a proposal to spend £100,000 or £150,000 on improvements at the Hotel Kurrajong, converting the hotel into something in the nature of luxury accommodation. That was the term used in the newspaper notices at that time. I had the temerity to suggest - I know my colleagues who stay at the Hotel Kurrajong will forgive me - that instead of spending £100,000 to £150,000 to provide quite lavish accommodation at Hotel Kurrajong, the Commonwealth Government might spend some money on improving conditions at what are regarded as the lower grade of hostels in Canberra, the hostels that accommodate the office staffs of the departments in Canberra. 1923 KHS 0 0 HOLTEN, Rendle Mr Holten - Have you ever stayed at the Hotel Kurrajong? 1923 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - I have never stayed at the Hotel Kurrajong, but I was for seven and a half years at Reid House in a room nine feet by ten feet, with an 8 feet ceiling, with no washing facilities in the room, with no hot or cold water, with no form of heating other than that provided by the occupant and with a route march to the ablution block every time one wanted to wash one's hands. I understand that is slightly at variance with the conditions at the Hotel Kurrajong. I am speaking now for the young people and the people who are working in this city and who are living in what are regarded as B class hostels managed by Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. 1923 KUX 0 0 STEWART, Francis Mr Stewart - What does " B " stand for? 1923 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - The honorable member for Lang asks what " B " stands for. I know that he is quite capable of interpreting that for himself. When I suggested that conditions should be improved at these hostels, I was interviewed by Sh* Tasman Heyes, Mr. Bruce Brown, the General Manager of Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. and the local manager of the company. They had with them a prepared statement which was intended to rebut everything that I had said about the conditions in these second class or B class hostels. I do not know that that is an official term. I have not time to read the whole of the statement they had prepared, but one paragraph of it said - The Commonwealth docs not make profits out of any of the Canberra establishments. Where trading surpluses are made, the company is permitted to use such surpluses for effecting improvements in the establishments. Another paragraph said - The largest and least satisfactory of the lower tariff guest houses, namely Mulwala House and Reid House, are temporary buildings which it is proposed to replace. It would be wasteful to carry out any major improvements (e.g., the provision of hot water in rooms and central heating) in these establishments because it is hoped that they can be replaced at least within the next 3-5 years. A further paragraph said - It is hoped that it will be possible to offer the present guests in Reid House and Mulwala House the choice of transferring to these new hostels. This is a reference to the new 500 bed hostels, which are being built now and which will contain all the conveniences that modern science can provide. The statement continued - Whilst Mulwala House and Reid House remain, they can then be used for new arrivals who will qualify later for transfer to the more modern establishments- That is magnificent in this bureaucratic city- thus using the less satisfactory hostels largely as transit accommodation. That is a term that could be more accurately applied, of course, to Hotel Kurrajong and some of the other A class establishments. The statement also said - With regard to the accommodation at Capital, Hill/Hillside for workers, the same policy has been adopted of effecting improvements gradually by the use of available funds. These establishments are in the same position as Reid House and Mulwala House and are due for replacement within three to four years and, consequently, any major improvement work would not be justified. I again had the temerity to suggest to Sir Tasman Heyes that if improvements that were being contemplated at other hostels could not be provided at Mulwala House and Reid House, the equitable approach would be to reduce the tariffs at these hostels and so give the young people staying there a better chance to make ends meet in this rather costly city. Although the suggestion was received, I thought with some approbation, the tariffs have been increased, as they are increased every time there is a rise in the basic wage. I refer to the statement that the hostels do not make profits. Managers and exmanagers of hostels in Canberra aver without any hesitation at all that the hostels are operating at substantial profits, but since Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. has taken over control the Parliament is no longer provided with dissections of figures, as were previously provided by the Auditor-General in his report. We have to go back to 1957-58 to get a dissection of the figures. It was revealed that for that financial year Reid House, the hostel it is not worth improving because it will be pulled down in four or five years, made a profit of fi 2,766. Havelock House made a profit of £4,458. The works hostel at Capital Hill- this is the hostel for workers not far from here - made a profit of £8,337. Ex-managers say that the profits of these, hostels are now running at the rate of £1,200 or £1,300 a month. If their statements are to be refuted, they can be refuted only by the provision of figures similar to those formerly provided for this Parliament by the Auditor-General. If Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. sees fit to answer the charge that it is making profits from these hostels, and particularly the charge that it is making excessive profits from the lower tariff hostels where the workers and the young people of this community are housed, it should publish the figures and let the Parliament know. I suggest at this stage that the Minister for Labour and National Service may see fit to answer the detailed questions that I have asked. I ask him now, through the Minister for Immigration (Mr. Opperman), who is at the table, whether he will give an assurance that Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. will offer no objection to the forming of an organisation by hostel managers to negotiate with the company on the terms of their employment and their remuneration. I suggest that, if the Minister cannot make such a declaration on behalf of the Company, he should intimate clearly that the Commonwealth Government has . no objection to hostel managers forming an organisation to negotiate with their employers about their terms of employment and their remuneration. I leave the matter at that. 1924 JZG Warringah 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE .- Mr. Temporary Chairman, I wish to discuss the estimates for the Department of Labour and National Service which are now before the Committee. As we all know, this Department administers our system of conciliation and arbitration. For the edification of honorable members - I am certain that many of them require some edification - I point out that the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission is composed of 16 members in all. These are the President, five Deputy Presidents, all of them have the qualification of judges, one Senior Com missioner and nine Commissioners. The Commissioners do not require legal qualifications. Assisting the Commission, but not represented on it, are three Conciliators. Any one who knows something of the conciliation and arbitration system is aware of the integrity of these members and their dedication to the task of maintaining industrial harmony. They have a sound knowledge of industrial law and long experience in dealing with industrial problems. The Australian system of conciliation and arbitration is elaborate and costly to the country. Those who administer the system have a very grave responsibility for ensuring that industrial conditions here are as good as possible so that proper decisions may be made and conciliatory methods may bc brought into play. 1 think it is beyond doubt and beyond question that industrial conditions in Australia are equal to the best in the world. The Australian system of conciliation and arbitration is unique. The honorable member for Cunningham (Mr. Connor), in what I regard as a shameful display of anti-Australianism, stated this evening that' our system was not good and that it left much to be desired. His attitude suggests to me that he has had little experience of the system of conciliation and arbitration that operates here. I for one have implicit faith in it, and I am certain that 99 per cent, of the Australian people have equal faith in it. The industrial machinery and procedures certainly have changed over the years, but the functions and objectives remain the same. These are the settlement of industrial grievances, by either conciliation or arbitration. I state without equivocation, Mr. Temporary Chairman, that this system is backed not only by employers but also by employees. It is important to the rank and file workers that the system continues to exist, as the great majority of workers regard the arbitral tribunals as a protection against the lowering of living standards, particularly in times when labour is overabundant. I admit that the Australian system of conciliation and arbitration is not perfect. It is subject to human fallibility. But I claim that it has brought to Australia a high standard of living in circumstances in which dramatic development has taken place here. Australians are noted for their sportsmanship and their obedience to the decisions of the umpire. When all is said and done, the system of conciliation and arbitration in our community surely occupies the position of an umpire. Yet, in this day and age, we find a staggering increase in strike action. According to figures that have been made available, one million man days have been lost over the last year. What a national scandal that is. It indicates that there is abroad a spirit of industrial lawlessness. This situation poses the questions: Is our system of conciliation and arbitration losing its effectiveness? Has not the militant and irresponsible attitude of the trade union movement, in large measure, made a sham, a mockery and almost a complete farce of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission? A powerful section of the trade union movement is now resorting freely to strike action. We see brandished the strike weapon - the bludgeon of industrial intimidation - with industrial anarchy on the loose and irresponsible stoppages the order of the day. The resulting disruption of the defence programme and of national progress makes this serious situation unacceptable to good Australians. The community is virtually being held to ransom. One may well ask, and I repeat: Is our system of conciliation and arbitration losing its effectiveness in this troubled country? I assert that there is not one iota of justification for the current wave of strikes. The arguments that I have heard from honorable members opposite about the reasons why the men are said to find it necessary to strike will not bear examination. Honorable members opposite say that the high earnings of General MotorsHolden's Pty. Ltd. and other employers give the men good reason for striking. Surely those earnings indicate to reasonable and moderate trade union leaders that the industries concerned are efficient. If they believe they have a proper case in favour of employees, they ought to take it to the courts. The grievances over wages and conditions that have led to recent and current strikes should properly be referred to the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission, hut, as I have pointed out, a number of unions would rather resort to industrial anarchy, and torpedo arbitration. They have become completely arrogant and irresponsible and their tactics amount to sheer industrial disruption. Industry and the nation are being subjected to industrial blackmail by powerful and important unions that find themselves at present in a strategic position industrially. Has all this come about just by coincidence? Of course it has not. It has resulted from a combination of circumstances. These are, first, over-full employment and, secondly, our concern for national security. With very careful planning, the hierarchy of the Communist Party of Australia has taken advantage of this combination of circumstances. 1925 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - Here he goes again. 1925 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE - I am one who has a long experience of the way in which the Communist Party acts in the industrial sphere, and now, looking across the chamber, I realise that the majority of honorable members opposite would not have a clue as to the way in which the Communists operate. I have had a good deal of experience with the erstwhile union of the honorable member for Kingsford-Smith (Mr. Curtin), the Boilermakers Society of Australia. 1925 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - They are not Communists. 1925 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE - They are Communist led. What is happening in Australian industrial circles today is the result of Communist dictation. Do you mean to tell me, or do you mean to tell any reasonable person, that the Communist leaders, the agitators, are just looking after their bookshop in Sussex Street and doing things that are not calculated to cause disruption? Of course that is not the position. I say quite definitely that behind every major strike there is Communist influence, Communist" dictation of union leaders. 1925 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - What rot. 1925 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE - I do not know whether honorable members opposite would know just what form such dictation takes. Let us not be misled about the way in which the Communists operate. They go along to a trade union leader who appears about to step out of line and break away from Communist influence, and they talk to him about tame cat unions and tame cat leadership. They use a kind of verbal intimidation. The trade union leader is then influenced in the same way as honorable members opposite have unfortunately been influenced. Honorable members of the Opposition have been so intimidated by Communists who wield power in the trade union movement that not one of them has got up in this chamber - at least not during my time in the Parliament - and denounced a strike of any kind. Surely you cannot all sit in your places on the other side of this chamber and seriously contend that you approve all strike action that is taken. 1926 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - Don't you think the master provokes strikes? 1926 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE - The conditions . of employment in Australia are particularly good. I would say they are the best in the world. I would say that the master does not provoke strikes and that he would go out of his way - that all employers would go out of their way - to make conditions of employment as good as possible and to ensure that workers enjoy high standards of living. 1926 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - The master creates strikes. 1926 10000 0 0 CLARK, Joseph The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Clark - Order! 1926 K8B 0 0 CURTIN, Daniel Mr Curtin - The master creates a strike to get out .of his contract when he is losing money. 1926 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN Order! The honorable member for Kingsford Smith will come to order. 1926 JZG 0 0 COCKLE, John Mr COCKLE - Everyone knows how the Communist leaders employ mob psychology to intimidate. They do it in such a way that not one man who goes to a stop work meeting would be game to get up and say: "I am opposed to this strike". Honorable members opposite know that just as well as anyone knows it who has some knowledge of the trade union situation. It is this intimidation that causes the mcn in the unions to agree with the strike resolutions that are put forward. They realise that their lives would not be worth living if they took action against the leaders. In these circumstances we find in this country today discord, disruption and industrial anarchy, which are part of the stockintrade of the Communist Party. The Communists are using a softening up process as part of their plan for the eventual takeover of this country. The Labour Party is in the course of a softening up process aimed ultimately at nationalisation. The time has arrived for honorable members opposite to take stock of the position and decide whether they want complete industrial chaos and to throw over the system of conciliation and arbitration which has stood the test of time and has done so much for the workers of Australia and the. community generally. I conclude by asking once again, because there is some doubt in my mind about this: Is the system of conciliation and arbitration proving effective in this day and age? 1926 K9M Hughes 0 0 JOHNSON, Leslie Mr L R JOHNSON .- I doubt that the committee will take the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Cockle) seriously. While he has been referring to extreme sections of the trade union movement, we all recognise him as one of the most tyrannical representatives of the' employers. He has been well known as the representative of the shipowners on the Australian waterfront, and this evening he has given a fair expression of the unreasonable attitude which that section of employers has adopted towards its employees over the years. If his speech is an indication of the degree of commonsense that can be employed in a discussion of such an important subject, in circumstances in which there are strikes taking place in various parts of the country based on tremendously important social questions, and if the views expressed by the honorable member fairly represent those of the Government, we can easily appreciate that the Government is completely unable to deal with the problems on hand. However, I cannot spend time at the moment in discussing the honorable member's views, although I would like to do so on some future occasion. I wish to refer to a section of the estimates for the Department of Labour and National Service which has to do with the supplementary adult training scheme which has already been referred to by my colleagues, the honorable members for Newcastle (Mr. Jones) and Cunningham (Mr. Connor). As most honorable members know, the Government is at present trying to overcome difficulties created by its own misdemeanours and inefficiency which have resulted in a shortage of apprentices and tradesmen. The Government has now been in office for 15 years and the chickens are at last coming home to roost. The day of reckoning has arrived and a crisis has arisen in many of our heavy industries and other important industries. For a long time the Government has refused to concede the status of tradesmen in the community. It must fairly take the blame for having depressed the living standards of tradesmen. It has filched away tradesmen's margins. It has even taken the trouble to put its views before the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission when that authority has been hearing applications for increased margins. The actions taken by the Government have been tantamount to driving men out of trades. One of those actions that readily springs to mind was the adoption of stop-go economic policies which caused periodic unemployment of tradesmen in many industries. Then we know of the pin-pricking tactics in invoking the penal clauses of awards. When men have endeavoured to correct some glaring anomaly on a job or to improve conditions, the penal provisions of the Arbitration Act have been viciously invoked. In addition, the Government can be fairly indicted for having failed to plan for the necessary intake of apprentices. There have been many other causes of the unsatisfactory situation that exists at the present time, and I can produce a good deal of evidence of them. Insufficient effort has been made to encourage private enterprise to accept a fair intake of indentured youths. As my colleague the honorable member for Newcastle pointed out earlier today, Commonwealth departments - be instanced figures in respect of several - have a pretty poor record in regard to apprenticeships. Now we have reached the stage where the Government has only one remedy. It seems to be intent on writing down still further the tradesman's status and the skill of the tradesman, which have been a matter of great pride in this country for a long time. This is to be undertaken by a new dilution scheme. I want to make it clear that neither the Labour movement nor the trade union movement is opposed to rehabilitation schemes. We are not even opposed to intensified and accelerated processes of turning inexperienced people into experienced tradesmen. In fact, fair concessions have already been made towards this end. But the Labour movement and the trade union movement are devoted to the idea that, whatever dilution scheme is introduced, a fair result should accrue and good tradesmen's standards should follow. We have already been able to observe, from the paper circulated by the Department of Labour and National Service headed "A Note of the Commonwealth Supplementary Training Scheme " and dated 9th May 1964, that the trade union movement has made important concessions. Decisions taken include, among others, the acceptance of the principle of giving the greatest opportunities, the reduction of the term of apprenticeship for educational qualifications and experience, and shortened apprenticeships of three to three and one-half years in the engineering and electrical trades for older and better qualified lads. This is already operating and fair results are in sight. At the present time, however, the Government is canvassing what seems to me to be a most unreasonable proposition. The proposal is that adults of 19 years of age and over will be enticed into apprenticeships and they are to be given six months technical training - a bare six months technical training - after which they are to undertake two years in an approved industry. Then, provided they measure up to an examination or a test, they are to be issued with a certificate under the Tradesmen's Rights Regulation Act. Employers in many parts of the country are already making the point that this proposition is completely incapable of providing skilled tradesmen who will have had the necessary environment to make their work effective. Indeed, only the other day, when I visited the Cronulla Tool and Engineering Co., an industry in my own electorate, the proprietor said: " We could not engage a person who had undertaken only six months training and two years in an approved industry and allow him to work one of these expensive machines, the capital cost of which could be in the vicinity of £25,000." He pointed to a die which was being processed on a milling machine and said that the product which was being processed had already increased in value many times as a consequence of the work that had been done on it. To get someone with this minimum amount of training and engage him on that type of work would be disastrous and far too risky for that employer and, he felt, for most others. Already there has been, as I have said, a fair concession in this regard. As a result of a conference in November 1962 an arrangement has been in operation whereby there are three to three and one-half year apprenticeships for people in the 17 to 20 year age group with higher educational qualifications. They undertake 20 weeks continuous daylight training. The unions have already agreed to drop the minimum age from 17, I understand, and this indicates still further the degree of cooperation that they are prepared to render. It is fair to contend that this training scheme had not been given a fair trial up to this point, at which the Minister and his Department have come in with this more provocative arrangement which, in no circumstances, has the prospect of, producing good tradesmen of the type we have had up to date. Young men have been available for many years for apprenticeships, but there has been insufficient encouragement for them. In July 1963 there were no fewer than 80,000 registered unemployed in Australia. Of that number 20 per cent. - 16,000 in numbers - were under 21 years of age, according to the figures provided by the Department of. Labour and National Service. Here was a large number of young men who had been deprived of apprenticeship training- opportunities as a result of this Government's economic policies. In March 1964 - not so long ago - there were no fewer than 2,372 male school leavers registered for employment in Australia. During the year ended July 1964 - I am not saying " at " July 1964, but during the year that ended in July - there were no fewer than 82,700 school leavers registered for employment with the Commonwealth Employment Service. A large number of these people had obviously been deprived of the opportunity to take apprenticeships. It is an appalling fact that the intake of apprentices is declining. I have been able to ascertain that in 1954 22.75 per cent. of school leavers were apprenticed. By 1959 the figure had fallen to 19.11 per cent. A number of trade unions which studied this problem predicted that in 1964 the figure would drop to 18 per cent, of school leavers. Why are employers not seeking apprentices to the extent that they should? Many of them have contended that economic conditions are far too unstable to enable them to look five years ahead. I have only to refer to one report of an apprenticeship commission to illustrate this point. The report of the Apprenticeship Commission of Victoria makes no bones about the situation. At page 9 of the report the Commission' states - Over the years the apprenticeship system in Victoria has provided industry with skilled craftsmen who are not inferior in skill and adaptability to those of other countries. Unfortunately we are not training enough of them and we are not attracting enough of the better qualified youths to fill the future requirements for the technicians which technical progress demands. All sections of the economy are competing for young labour and too many of our best brains are being diverted by the attractions of early rewards and so-called white collar occupations. The report continues - Too many employers are neglecting their obligation to train their own skilled people. They prefer to leave the expense and inconvenience of training to others. This is a selfish and irresponsible attitude. They must be convinced that not only should they meet their obligations to train craftsmen but that they cannot afford not to train them. There are many similar comments in this report of the Apprenticeship Commission of Victoria for the year ended 30th June 1964, and similar comments are being made by employers all over the country. In the last edition of the publication "Automotive Topics" a similar comment is made under the heading "Employers Must Train More Apprentices". The publication says that the employers have been failing in that regard. It is very difficult to know why employers do not appreciate the surely apparent need to get on with the job. In the limited time at my disposal I want to make the point that 38 per cent, of the Australian population at the end of June 1963 were under 19 years of age. Indeed, it is fair to predict that the highest output of youths of apprenticeship age will take place from now on over the next 20 years to, say, 1984. There seems to be a tendency in Australia for us to become " over Messelised People seem to think th everyone should become a physicist, a chemist or a scientist of some sort. This is a consequence of the influence of Professor Messel. But nobody seems to realise the necessity to encourage the people who are the very salt of the earth in many respects, the people who put most things into operation. I think it fair to say that this Government has been lax in respect of the Martin Committee which is investigating the needs of secondary and technical education. The Government's attitude is, in itself, symptomatic of the low priority which is being given by the Government to the needs of technical education generally. I want to make the point that in many trades there has not been an overdose of work vacancies. As a member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, I have been interested to obtain information from that union in regard to the excess of vacancies over tradesmen - that is, registered fitters - for the last four years when there has not been very much difference between the two figures at all. The excess of vacancies .over available tradesmen in 1960 was 559. There were insufficient vacancies in 1961, when 366 more vacancies were needed than were actually available. In 1962, 82 more vacancies were needed than were available. It is true in 1963 there were 410 such vacancies, but over a period these figures seemed to have averaged out .pretty well. There are many figures available to indicate that there is not a large surplus of vacancies in Australia at the present time. It seems to me that this Government has to lift its sights and make stronger endeavours than it has made hitherto to ensure that employers accept a fair intake of apprentices, because unless this is done, Australia will find itself in great difficulty in the not far distant future. 1929 KMB Corio LP Minister for Immigration 1 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN . - I would not have intruded into this debate were it not for the fact that these are the first estimates of the Department of Immigration which have been before the Committee since I took over the portfolio. Therefore I feel it is fitting, and I do this with great sincerity, that I should pay a tribute to my predecessor, Mr. Downer, whose work I now have experienced and who, as honorable members know, is the United Kingdom High Commissioner elect. He was, as this Com mittee well knows, a most tolerant and capable Minister. Perhaps the best compliment that I can pay him is to say that in the experience that I have had already in my portfolio, my predecessor has left a Department with very high morale and keen and enthusiastic officers who never lose sight of the fact that they are dealing with human beings, all of whom have their own problems, difficulties and apprehensions. These officers know that they too have a tremendous and grave responsibility when they change so drastically and dramatically the way of life of others. The effect of this is reflected in the words of the honorable member for Ryan (Mr. Drury), the honorable member for Grayndler (Mr. Daly) and the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Pettitt), all of whom expressed such warm admiration for those engaged in the processing of prospective migrants for Australia. The migration programme over the years has been one which has been peculiarly non-political. In many ways one can almost say non-party. There is no reservation of appreciation, for example, from those on this side of the chamber when we remember that this plan was commenced so effectively by the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Calwell), and no member on the Labour Party side of the committee has condemned with any caustic criticism the succession of Immigration Ministers of this Government. We may differ at times over matters of detail, but the overall immigration plan has had almost universal political approval. Therefore, the Department of Immigration has developed over the years into a vast and comprehensive organisation with an essential flexible operation to meet changing circumstances. Because of this fact, one could say, from knowledge of conventions which have come out here and from committees which have examined the position - not based merely on our own statements - that the Department has achieved the most satisfactory results known to any immigration plan in the world today. The Department has to intrude into many different countries. It contacts many different nationalities with their contrasting temperaments and outlooks. For this reason, the Department requires representatives with particular talents and capacities for assessing people of another race and for gauging their potential when transplanted into a country some 10,000 miles away from their own country. With these facts in mind, I think it is worth mentioning that plans have been put into operation for our selection officers, prior to posting overseas in their important positions, to visit various parts of Australia to obtain an up to date knowledge of the needs and development of this country. This knowledge is regarded as absolutely necessary. This is an indication that the Department is just not resting on the results of the past. It is not complacent about its future, or the present satisfactory position with regard to immigration figures to which reference has been made by previous speakers. I would say that the portrayal of Australia over a considerable period of time is now reaping a commensurate reward. Over the years, there have been from time to time various criticisms of Australian publicity abroad, according to the outlook and reaction of each particular critic. Australians who have been abroad, and people from other countries who come here, say that, perhaps too great an emphasis is placed on the illustration of our beaches, or too much attention is focussed on our outback, and too much, representation is made of our cities. But I feel that the very varied types of portrayal which have been given by the Department of Immigration and the Bureau of News and Information have built up overall what the advertising people call an image. In this case, it is a very favorable image of Australia, because we have now coming to Australia a record number of immigrants, despite the buoyant economic conditions of Europe, which have been referred to by the honorable member for Hume in pointing out that immigration is running at a record level. It may be relevant at this point to say once again that the immigration target for 1964-65 has been established at 127,000 settlers, of whom 55,000 will be assisted migrants from Britain; 20,000 will be assisted migrants from other sources; and 52,000 will be unassisted settlers from all countries. The target of 55,000 assisted British migrants is the biggest target ever attempted in this country. I must say in connection with that matter that the target for British assisted migrants was established at this time last year at 45,000. Therefore, our target for this year provides for an additional 10,000 migrants. In the light of the growing demand for workers of all kind, and particularly because of the urgent need for certain categories of skilled workers, the programme was reviewed early in 1964 and the target for British assisted migrants for the financial year just completed was increased to 55,000. The actual arrivals for the financial year under that scheme were 54,630 Therefore, it can be understood why we approach with considerable confidence a target of 55,000 assisted migrants from the United Kingdom that has been set for this current financial year. We have provided also for a greater degree of flexibility - and I referred earlier in my speech to the flexibility that the Department needs in order to meet changing circumstances - so that by 31st December some 32,600 persons of the target of. 55,000 British assisted migrants will either, already be in Australia or on their way here. This will enable us if necessary to increase the rate of intake during the second half of this financial year. It is not easy to superimpose that number of migrants quickly upon a number for which a transport system has already been arranged despite the fact that the outsider may feel that there are sufficient ships and aircraft to meet any added demands of that nature. I want to assure the Committee that the integration of this extra number calls for a tremendous amount of organisation. It is worth noting here the important assistance that has been made available by Qantas Empire Airways Ltd. in providing from its own resources or by chartering on behalf of the Department from other companies sufficient aircraft to move 14,500 people during the first six months of this financial year. We feel now that the record number of 20,000 migrants moved from the United Kingdom to Australia by air last financial year will be increased substantially. The proposed level of assisted migration from the United Kingdom by no means provides for all those who wish to come here. In the financial year just ended, applications received at Australia House covered 117,500 people, and it is pleasing to be able to announce that the level of applications in the first three months of this financial year was approximately the same as that for the corresponding period last financial year. During his speech this afternoon, the honorable member for Grayndler (Mr. Daly) asked for a break down of the figures relating to migrants from countries other than the United Kingdom. He will be interested to know that the figures disclose that of the assisted migrants from such countries 700 were Austrians, 300 were Belgians, 2,000 were Dutch, 3,000 were Germans, 3,500 were Greeks, 2,000 were Italians, 3,500 were Maltese and 1,000 were Spanish. There will be 1,500 refugees from Western Europe. Others, including British, French, Scandinavians, Swiss and Americans will be assisted. The 52,000 unassisted settlers included 12,000 British, 12,000 Greeks, 9,000 Italians, and 1,500 Maltese. Also some nationals from Communist countries will be travelling here under what is known as Operation Re-Union. No doubt honorable members have heard of that. The honorable member for Grayndler and the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Pettitt) drew attention to the fact that 250,000 migrants, including children, who are residentially qualified to apply for naturalisation have not done so.. Perhaps it would be better if I were to state the position from the other side. I ask honorable members to remember that over 60 per cent, of eligible migrants have successfully sought Australian citizenship. It is interesting to note that this compares favorably with the experience of other countries which have built up their populations by large scale immigration. Therefore, the fact that 250,000 have not applied for naturalisation is no indication Australia does not suit migrants generally The 60 per cent, represents a good average figure. We would like every migrant to become naturalised who has settled here, who likes the country and who is likely to remain here. We share the concern expressed by honorable members with relation to the number who have not applied. I should mention that we are taking steps to encourage more migrants to become naturalised. For instance, the application forms for naturalisation have been simplified. 1931 K5L 0 0 COPE, James Mr Cope - Why do you not give them a bonus? That would attract them. 1931 KMB 0 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN - We say they have a bonus in being in the country. All that an applicant is required to do is place his name and address on the application form. Immediately he does that, he is assisted by the Department to complete the remaining requirements. In addition, we no longer require the payment of a fee upon submitting an application for naturalisation. We are carrying out surveys to ascertain the reasons why a number of eligible migrants have not applied for naturalisation. When the results of these surveys have been scrutinised we shall know far more than we do now, and undoubtedly additional measures will be taken. Some experiments have been carried out in enlisting the cooperation of employers of migrants, with excellent results. We have found that, after having been addressed with the permission of employers, many migrants have come forward and sought naturalisation. We propose to extend this line of action. It must be remembered, of course, that the Australian himself is a casual type of person. He will just let things run along so perhaps it is understandable that, with life as good as it is in Australia and with the casual attitude of the Australians, the migrants are content and do not worry 'about naturalisation. They suffer no great penalties for not being naturalised and the environment in which they find themselves, surrounded as they are by casual Australians, perhaps encourages them to be casual about making application. In the publicity field, a special effort has been made by the Department to bring to the notice of migrants the simple procedures to be followed in order to acquire citizenship. After a migrant has been here for four and a half years, he is notified that be will be eligible to receive naturalisation after having completed the essential five years' residence. He may make application six months before the expiration of the five years. It must be realised however, that we do not want migrants to feel that they are being subjected to any coercion. The honorable member for Grayndler mentioned that point. It is necessary that we place before them the advantages and concessions to be gained by being naturalised and becoming one of us; but, I repeat, this must be done without making migrants feel that pressure is being brought to bear upon them. Naturalisation ceremonies have been mentioned. I think that if a migrant has made up his mind to become naturalised the ceremony itself will have no effect upon his decision. 1932 6V4 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr Daly - That is a matter of opinion. 1932 KMB 0 0 OPPERMAN, Hubert Mr OPPERMAN - He will not refrain from becoming naturalised because of the type of ceremony involved. Although a certain formula is laid down, the ceremonies vary according to the sensitivity and leadership qualities of the people connected with carrying them out. Some people have an outstanding aptitude for this work. As I have travelled through the various States I witnessed many ceremonies which have stood out as solemn and memorable occasions, but others could have been a little more appropriate to the occasion. However, it must be remembered that we are inclined to speak only of ceremonies taking place today. If we care to cast our minds back we will appreciate that the present ceremonies are a tremendous improvement on those of the early 1950's which were carried out in the austerity of legal chambers. Most ceremonies today have a local atmosphere and their own characteristics. We owe a tremendous debt to the municipalities which make these occasions possible. Overall, they are carried out very well. The question of housing was also mentioned by the honorable member for Grayndler. This, after all, is a matter of degree. Certainly we all would like to see migrants transferred to private houses immediately upon their arrival, but it might be as well if we were to reflect upon conditions as they applied in the early 1950's. One area that comes into my mind is Bell Post Hill in the Corio electorate. In the early 1950's, we had there the nearest parallel that I have seen to the gold rush scenes of a century before. In that area, tents, packing cases and garages were scattered everywhere, much to the despair of the shire councils, health inspectors and building authorities. Today, they have been replaced by attractive well built houses, many of them constructed by the migrants themselves. Compared with the early 1950's, the situation today is a very happy one indeed, and it is improving. The hostel turnover also has dropped to an average of about eight months, and there are fewer people in hostels. I was able to announce last night, for instance, that the Scheyville Hostel has now been closed. In conclusion let me say that the success of our immigration programme is not due solely to any particular Minister or his Department. We have had a tremendous amount of voluntary co-operation from many sections of the public. We have the Immigration Planning Council under the chairmanship of the member for Ryan (Mr. Drury) which does excellent work in its capacity. Its members are drawn from leaders in all sections of the community, as is the membership of the Immigration Advisory Council which is presided over by the honorable member for Sturt (Mr. Wilson). Their deductions and advice, coming as they do from people who represent all sections of the community, have proved invaluable. A very important link is the Good Neighbour Council which co-ordinates the work of so many community bodies which are also working for the benefit of the migration plan. Churches of all denominations have proved most co-operative as well. Also tens of thousands of individual Australians have played their part in assisting migrants to become a part of this country. I would say that that is the reason why in the debate on this particular section of the Estimates we have had constructive thinking and a constructive outlook from both sides of the chamber on immigration, which is playing a most important part in Australia's present and which will continue to play an important part in Australia's future. 1932 KGL Herbert 0 0 HARDING, Ernest Mr HARDING . - Tonight, and this afternoon, we have heard a lot of fairy tales told us by Government members about the Communists - blaming them for everything that has happened in Australia over the last 12 months anyway. In speaking to the Estimates I should like to make one or two observations. I do not want to take much time, because I know that the whips are out I think we are all aware that this country is passing through a stage of widespread industrial unrest. I feel that this is caused by a number of factors. In Queensland the average railway worker, and his equivalent in other States, is seething with discontent. We have the same feeling with the Mount Isa mines workers who work on contract normally but who at the moment are on wages. Recent events in Victoria show that that State has its troubles also, and that things are more or less the same there. Whilst I do not hold with irresponsible action by Communists in trade unions, or others outside - not Communist, but outside influences - I must say that the recent disturbances and the present feeling of discontent are not entirely the work of the Communist Party as some people would have us believe. I am not sticking up for the Communist Party, because the Communists like me as much as I like them. In this country we are too fond of engaging in a form of self deception by blaming these people for everything and not looking for what is often the real cause of the trouble. In my opinion this can only cause a delay in getting at the root of the trouble. The policies of governments in Australia, both State - with a couple of exceptions - and Commonwealth, are pandering to that section of the community which votes for them at the expense of those who do not. We have seen in America what the ultimate result of this will be - an under-privileged proportion of the community living in slums and poverty and an affluent section living in comparative luxury. Of course, they owe for everything they have got, and in most cases their wives are working, but they still feel that things are good and resist any effort to change them. Our country is going the same way, and we can compare the present pattern of strikes and industrial unrest with the riots in America where they have a definite section of poverty, strikes and slum dwellers. While we have not reached that stage here yet, eventually we will if the average worker is continually denied justice, as at the moment. If as a result of all this the Communist Party of Australia becomes stronger, then let those responsible for it take the blame. Members on this side of the chamber will not be responsible for it. I should like now to mention the position at Townsville, particularly in respect of the working conditions of wharf labourers. That is my main reason for speaking, because I do not normally talk on the Estimates. What I am about to read is a report given to me by one of the workers on the wharf. The complaint would not apply to all ships entering the port, but it most certainly does apply to ships under cheap register. The port of Townsville handles close on 1,000,000 tons of cargo a year. It berths about 355 ships aggregating almost 2,000,000 tons. In my opinion, it should have a full time maritime surveyor. However, the following is a report by an officer of the Waterside Workers Federation regarding one particular incident, which is not uncommon but which is ample justification for the establishment of a full time maritime surveyor. The statement is by Mr. Jack Petrofski, the Vigilance Officer for the Townsville port, and is as follows - At 8.15 a.m. on the 17/8/64, during the course of my duties as Vigilance Officer of the Townsville branch of the Waterside Workers Federation, I proceeded to the vessel "Fast Wind", berthed at No. 1 berth, at the Townsville jetty wharf. On the day in question five gangs were listed to work this vessel, discharging bulk sulphate by means of grabs. As I arrived at the ship, I wa9 met by the delegate of the job, who was with the wharf supervisor, representing the O.G.S. Company. He requested me to inspect the gear of the ship as he was satisfied that the gear was not in a fit and proper condition for safe discharge of cargo. I noticed a number of shackles that were rusted and in a deplorable condition also guys that were badly frayed. The wharf supervisor of the company stevedoring the ship advised me that he and' the company were not satisfied with the condition of the gear and had requested Mr. Wall, Harbour Master, who is acting as the marine surveyor to make an inspection of the ship to certify whether the gear was safe to work in its condition, and that in the meantime no discharge of cargo would take place. Whilst waiting the arrival of the Harbour Master some derricks were lowered for inspection and a number of faulty rope guys replaced. While this was being done the Harbour Master arrived on the job some time after 9 a.m. He viewed a derrick that had been lowered and stated that he considered the guys to be safe. I pointed out to him that these guys had just been replaced. I then suggested to him that other derricks be lowered so a proper inspection could be carried out. He stated that this was not necessary as he had seen the gear certificate and as far as he was concerned the ship could go ahead and work. The employer had a derrick at another hatch lowered and it could be plainly seen that a guy commonly known as the lazy guy was worn and badly frayed. That sounds like a member of the Liberal Party - a " lazy guy ". The report continues - I drew the Harbour Master'9 attention to this, but he stated he had seen all he wanted to see and was satisfied that the ship's gear was safe to work. I then notified him that I was not satisfied that he had made a proper inspection and that members would not work under such unsafe conditions. Present at this stage were Capt. M. Ingle of the O.G.S. Company and Mr. J. Dalby, local representative of the A.S.I.A. I pointed out to both these men that Capt. Wall had not made a proper inspection of the' gear and members had ' no alternative but to refuse to work with the gear as it was. Both these men stated that as Capt. Wall had passed the gear as being safe they could do nothing about it and that members would have to proceed to work. Whether they liked it or not. The report continues - I notified both Capt. Ingles and Mr. Dalby that 1 still considered the gear unsafe to use and would not allow members to subject themselves, to dangerous working conditions even if a Board of Reference was taken and a decision was given along the lines of Capt. Wall's decision. Capt. Ingles informed me that he had been placed in this very unfortunate position by Capt. Wall and he was not happy with the set up. He then agreed to cut out the badly frayed portion of the guy which Capt. Wall had passed as safe and to lower all remaining derricks for a proper inspection and replacement of any faulty gear. After a considerable amount of lost time and the replacement of a number of items of faulty gear, the ship commenced to discharge cargo, and continued until the completion of discharge. An inspection can be made if necessary of the out out portion of the guy and also two shackles which were passed by Capt. Wall as being safe for use. The report continues - I feel sure that such an inspection will bear out the farcical nature of the decision given by Capt. Wall in the first instance. I again wish to report the action of Capt. Wall who did not make any inspection of the gear but relied on the certificate carried by the ship and did not ascertain for himself if the state of the gear coincided with the certificate, merely stating that he was satisfied with the certificate and as far as he was concerned that was all that counted. This statement was made in the presence of Captain Ingles and the A.S.I.A. local representative. Instances have been found in the past where faulty items of gear have been discovered, although the gear has been passed as safe for use according to the certificates. I feel sure that some action will have to be taken by the Federation to ensure that instances such as these are not allowed to continue whereby an accident could occur and members be maimed or suffer loss of life. The branch has previously reported the action of Captain Wall to the Federal office and once again I request that some action be taken in regard to this man's attitude. These matters may not affect many honorable members - perhaps they affect one or two who have ports in their electorates - but I mention them because whenever the wharfies of this country take action, which is quite often justified, everybody shouts " Corns " and in the ensuing smokescreen the wharfies are denied the wage and industrial justice to which they are entitled. In this way we continue our one-eyed policy at a time when our system is losing ground all the time. Proposed expenditures agreed to. Department of the Interior. Proposed expenditure, £11,108,000. Australian Capital Territory. Proposed expenditure, £27,826,300. 1934 K5L Watson 0 0 COPE, James Mr COPE .- In discussing the estimates for the Department of the Interior I shall relate my remarks to section 106 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act, which reads - In printing the ballot papers to be used in the House of Representatives election the names of all candidates duly nominated shall be printed in alphabetical order according to their surnames. I raised this matter in the debate in May 1961 on the Commonwealth Electoral Bill. I shall make some remarks on the matter this evening because I contend that a candidate whose name occupies top position on the ballot paper undoubtedly has a marked advantage over other candidates. It is perfectly true that the Australian Labour Party took full advantage of the placement of names on the ballot paper in alphabetical order in Senate elections until the system was altered in 1939 by the Menzies Government. It is interesting to note the remarks of Mr. Perkins, Minister in Charge of External Territories at the time, who was in charge of the legislation. In his second reading speech he said - The Bill further provides that the order in which the respective groups are to be placed on the ballot papers shall be determined by a draw publicly conducted by the Commonwealth Electoral Officer immediately after the close of nominations. This, it is considered, will provide a much more equitable method of determining ballot paper placement than the existing system of arrangement by alphabetical calculation, inasmuch as the chances of each and every group will be fairly and squarely equalised. The adoption of this proposal will remove entirely any advantage or any handicap that may be derived merely from the possession of a particular name and, in consequence, will act as a restraint on any tendency that might develop in the selection of candidates of placing a premium on those nominees whose names happen to commence with an early letter of the alphabet. He further said - It is provided in the Bill that the system of determination of placement by draw shall apply also to the names of the candidates at House of Representatives elections. If this proposal is adopted the Divisional Returning Officer will, in each case, at the close of nominations, publicly make a draw, and the names of the candidates will appear on the ballot papers as so drawn. The justification for the proposed method lies, it is believed, in its strict fairness. Each candidate , will be given an equal chance as far as ballot paper position is concerned, irrespective of the name he bears. If his name commences with the letter A he will obtain no greater advantage or suffer no greater handicap than if it commenced with the letter Z. The proposal to abolish the alphabetical system for Senate elections was accepted by the Parliament but for some inexplicable reason the Government dropped the proposal in regard to House of Representatives elections, despite what the Minister had so adequately pointed out and emphasised about the unfairness of the alphabetical system. In substantiating my case that the positions of candidates on the ballot paper should be determined by draw I shall give some statistics. In the 1958 Commonwealth elections the Australian Democratic Labour Party contested 40 electorates in New South Wales. In 15 of those electorates its candidates occupied top position on the ballot papers. Those electorates were Blaxland, Bradfield, Cowper, Eden-Monaro, Farrer, Hunter, Lawson, Lowe, Macquarie, Newcastle, New England, Paterson, Shortland, Werriwa and West Sydney. Of a total of 612.538 formal votes cast in those electorates the D.L.P. candidates gained 55,343 - an average of 9.03 per cent. The remaining 25 electorates in New South Wales contested by the D.L.P. in which its candidates did not occupy top position on the ballot paper were Banks, Barton, Bennelong, Cunningham, East Sydney, Evans, Grayndler, Hughes, Hume, Kingsford-Smith, Lang, Lyne, Mackellar, Mitchell, North Sydney, Parkes, Parramatta, Phillip, Reid, Riverina, Robertson, St. George, Warringah, Watson and Wentworth. Of a total of 1,063,749 formal votes cast in those 25 electorates the D.L.P. candidates gained 51,472 votes - an average of 4.83 per cent. In the 1958 elections the Communist Party contested seven electorates in New South Wales. In three of those electorates - East Sydney, Grayndler and Mackellar - its candidates occupied top position on the ballot paper. Of a total of 118,585 formal votes cast in those electorates the Communist Party candidates gained 8,150 or 6.87 per cent. In the remaining- four electorates - Banks, Cunningham, Shortland and West Sydney - of a total of 171,363 formal votes cast the Communist Party gained 6,020 or 3.57 per cent. So in the electorates in which the D.L.P. occupied top position on the ballot paper its candidates polled an average of 9.03 per cent, of formal votes cast but where its candidates did not occupy top position they polled an average of 4.83 per cent, of formal votes cast - a difference of 4.2 per cent. Where the Communist Party candidate occupied top position on the ballot paper he polled 6.87 per cent, of formal votes cast. Where he was not in top position he polled 3.57 per cent. - a difference of 3.3 per cent. Now I shall give some figures in relation to the 1963 Commonwealth elections, using results as printed in the newspapers on 2nd December 1963. The official figures have not yet been printed. In 1963 the D.L.P. contested 31 electorates in New South Wales. Its candidates occupied top position on the ballot paper in 20 of those electorates - Barton, Blaxland, Bradfield, Calare, Dalley, Eden-Monaro, Evans, Farrer, Hughes, Hunter, Newcastle, North Sydney, Parkes, Phillip, Reid, Riverina, Robertson, Shortland, Watson and West Sydney. Of a total of 770,454 formal votes cast in those electorates the D.L.P. candidates gained 58,414 or 7.58 per cent. In the remaining eleven electorates in which the D.L.P. candidate did not occupy top position - Bennelong, Hume, Lawson, Lowe, Macarthur, Mackellar, Mitchell, Parramatta, St. George, Warringah and Werriwa - of a total of 530,221 formal votes cast the D.L.P. candidates polled 23,213 or 4.37 per cent. So it may be readily seen that where the D.L.P. candidate held top position on the ballot paper he polled an average of 7.58 per cent, of formal votes cast compared with an average of 4.37 per cent, of formal votes cast when he did not occupy top position. The difference here is 3.21 per cent. I shall give two other notable illustrations to make my point. First I will compare the votes recorded by P. M. Clancy, the Communist Party candidate in the electorate of Banks in the 1955 and 1958 general elections. In 1 955 Clancy occupied top position on the ballot paper. Of a total of 41,875 formal votes cast he polled 3,356 or 8.01 per cent. In 1958, when Clancy's name was not in the top position, of a total of 48,701 formal votes he gained 1,634 or 3.35 per cent. The difference was 4.66 per cent. The second illustration concerns my own electorate of Watson. In the 1961 election the D.LP. candidate was a Miss Mary Nappa, whose name did not occupy the top position on the ballot paper. Of a total of 36,294 formal votes, she gained 1,081 or 2.97 per cent. It is interesting to note that this lady has resided in the Mascot sub-division of the Watson electorate for many years and is widely known in that area. In addition, she was widely advertised by propaganda and posters as well as by workers at the main polling booth. In the 1963 elections the D.L.P. candidate was a chap named Atkinson. He was a resident of Manly, in the electorate of Mackellar. He was completely unknown in the Watson electorate. He was not advertised by any propaganda or posters and had not one solitary worker at any polling booth. Yet, simply because his name occupied the top position on the ballot paper, he polled 2,136 votes compared with the 1,081 votes polled by Miss Nappa in 1961. A very conservative estimate of the advantage gained from the top position on the ballot paper is from 2± to 3 per cent., or from 1,000 to 1,200 votes in 40,000. It is quite obvious that the D.L.P. is selecting as candidates as many people as possible whose names will occupy the top position, for the purpose of obtaining what is known as the donkey vote and no doubt with the object of endeavouring to hoodwink the people of New South Wales into believing that it is not a dwindling political party. We are all well aware that many people, especially those who are in a hurry and absentee voters, merely vote across the Senate ballot paper and down the House of Representatives ballot paper. Although we appreciate that such a vote is not an intelligent one, I submit that it is agreed that all candidates in a Commonwealth election should have an equal right to benefit from that kind of vote. That equality applies in Senate elections, but not in House of Representatives elections. Will any honorable member say that drawing for positions on the ballot paper is not fair and just? In conclusion, let me remind honorable members that a system similar to the one I have proposed was introduced in 1939 by the Menzies Government for the purpose of destroying the advantage that was being gained by the Australian Labour Party in the Senate. The system was also to be introduced in House of Representatives elections. Positions on the ballot paper were to be determined by drawing out of a hat. But, as I said before, for some inexplicable reason, the matter was dropped when it was going through the Senate. Consequently, we still have an antiquated method of placing names on the House of Representatives ballot paper. 1 have nothing to cavil about in respect of my own name. I have had the top position at practically every election that I have contested. But I believe it is completely unfair that any person should be at a disadadvantage simply because the initial letter of his name is low in the alphabet. Despite the fact that some parties might gain from the present system, I submit to the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony) and the Government that not one honorable member believes that a draw out of a hat is not a fair and just way of determining positions on the ballot paper. 1936 KHS Indi 0 0 HOLTEN, Rendle Mr HOLTEN .- I direct my remarks to the estimates for the Department of the Interior and the Australian News and Information Bureau in particular. I notice that last year the expenditure was £713,725 and that this year it is expected to rise to £844,000- an increase of about £131,000. Since I returned from the United States of America I have made some inquiries about the activities and functions of the Bureau. I became very interested in the reasons for the lack of knowledge of Australia in the United States. That lack of knowledge was offset slightly by a seemingly inbuilt admiration for Australia and Australians which ran right across the American nation among people in all walks of life. But what struck mc very forcibly was the lack of real knowledge of Australia. In fact, I specifically asked practically everyone I met - whether he was a businessman, a government employee, a taxi driver or a hotel porter - what the name "Australia" conjured up in his mind. In 99 cases out of 100, the first answer I received was: "Kangaroos". The second answer was: "It is a place that is mostly desert ". The third answer was: " We understand that you have a lot of Aborigines down there ". That is dead true. I believe - the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony) almost certainly agrees with me - that the appropriation for the News and Information Bureau is out of all proportion to its importance. I asked the Bureau what its functions were. I will quote the first paragraph of this document which sets out the functions and operations of the Bureau. It states - To produce as required publicity and information material for dissemination abroad with the object of making Australia as a whole more widely and more favorably known; of helping the people of other countries to understand Australia's outlook, endeavours and potentialities; and of helping to foster good relationships in all Australia's dealings with other countries. Particularly at this stage of the development of Australia, with a terrific shortage of skilled labour - in fact, a terrific shortage of labour and desirable migrants of all kinds - surely the News and Information Bureau is a vital adjunct to our immigration programme in alerting people and giving them a knowledge of what is in Australia and what its potentialities are. My statement that the American people think that almost the only things in Australia are kangaroos, desert and Aborigines is borne out by two articles that I have cut from the Melbourne " Herald ". One article described the experiences of Lady Nathan, who is the wife of a former Lord Mayor of Melbourne. On her return to Australia in August this year she said that it was not surprising that Americans knew little about Australia, as she saw only one news item about Australia in the newspapers while she was in the United States. I must confess that, although I did not read every newspaper from cover to cover, which is impossible when we realise that the Sunday issue of the " New York Times " has about 357 pages, this fact impressed itself on my mind: Very little news about Australia was available or reached the columns of the American newspapers. Another person who made a statement on her return to Australia from the United States was the Moomba Queen, Ria Luyben. She returned on 8th September of this year. She had been in the United States for two months. She said - The Americans are wonderful people, but simply have no idea of what Australia is like. . . . Why, they even asked me if we had showers and baths. . . . In Florida people asked "Do you have supermarket'!, and cars like ours? " That is very true. Attorneys and other well educated people in the United States asked me: " Where do you get most of your motor cars? Do you import them from the United States or from the United Kingdom? " When I told them that we make most of the motor cars we use, they were very interested but quite dumbfounded. The News and Information Bureau not only has a vital role to play in our immigration programme, but its activities also contribute to the number of tourists who visit Australia. My colleague the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. King) and others who have been in the United States would no doubt agree with me. I was there for only a short time, but I constantly heard the same comments. I have already mentioned the lack of knowledge about Australia and the obvious liking for Australia and Australians. Whether the people in the United States know anything about Australia, there is no doubt our reputation with them is very good. Right across America, people in various occupations expressed a tremendous interest in coming to Australia either as tourists or as migrants. I think we could increase the number of people interested in Australia or help those already thinking about Australia to make up their minds if we increased the efforts of the News and Information Bureau in the United States. I met our representatives in New York. They are Mr. Hamilton, who had just been posted there, and Mr. Eric Spark. They were obviously dedicated to their job, but they were only two people working on a limited budget. I see that the amount provided this year for the officers in the United States is £73,000, made up of salaries of £34,000 and operating expenditure of £39,000. This would not even scratch the surface of the work to be done in a city like New York and would mean nothing when related to the area that these people must cover. The only other office in the United States is in San Francisco, which is on the other side of the continent. There is no thought in my mind to reflect on the ability of the officers or on the job they are doing, but it is obvious that their budget is too small for their task. Expenditure of £39.000 on publicity may be all right in Australia, but we must lake a different view of the scale of the task in the United States, which has a population of 190 million. 1938 KET 0 0 KING, Robert Mr King - The cost structure there is double ours, too. 1938 KHS 0 0 HOLTEN, Rendle Mr HOLTEN - That is right. The £39,000, which is approximately 80,000 dollars, is really worth only about £20,000 in Australian currency. As I said earlier, I do not know whether the honorable member for Wimmera, when he was there, found that the Americans have an intense interest in Australia, but I certainly did. We are now looking for skilled labour and for desirable migrants. I am aware that we would have some difficulties in America, but we oan overcome them. I would like to see a trial of a concentrated publicity campaign in, say, two cities on the west coast of America. I was not able to speak during the debate on the estimates for the Department of Immigration, but I had intended to make this proposal when referring to the immigration programme. However, I make it now when referring to the News and Information Bureau. Instead of trying to spread the available funds on publicity across the whole of the United States, I suggest we concentrate our efforts on Los Angeles and San Francisco. These are the two biggest of the American cities in closer proximity to Australia. If people in this area want to come to Australia, either as tourists or as migrants, obviously the fares from these two cities will be lower than the fares from cities in the middle or on the east coast of the United States. I heard numerous complaints about the smog in Los Angeles, but nevertheless the population there is increasing rapidly. I am certain we could attract many people from the west coast of the United States, if we could give them a realistic picture of Australia, and they would be desirable migrants. I heard comments on several films about Australia that were shown in America. The films seemed to deal only with the outback parts of Australia. Everyone respects the pioneering efforts of the people who developed the outback and are still developing it, but I think it fair to say that a film of our outback does not really give a true picture of our great industrial development or. for that matter, of many other primary producing areas. I intend my remarks to be thoughtprovoking and to support the representations that the Minister has doubtless made to appropriate quarters for a bigger allocation of finance for the purpose of publicising Australia overseas. There is not much more I want to say on this subject. The scale of operations in the United States of America of our News and Information Bureau is not realistic. I repeat that there is tremendous potential there and I hope that a more realistic approach will be made by the Government in the near future to the provision of finance for the Bureau. Mr. DUTHIE (Wilmot) 19.581. - I wish to refer to the Department of the Interior and to the Australian Capital Territory. The Department of the Interior is responsible for our vast electoral system and I want to make a plea for a pay increase for the electoral officers throughout Australia. I make ho apology for doing so. The Commonwealth electoral officers have been working very hard. In the last 18 years we have had eight Federal elections. Many of the electoral officers also conduct State elections from the same polling booths. I appeal to the Government to examine the salaries of these very devoted servants of the Department of the Interior. They have a tremendous task to perform and they are devoted to their duties, which are repetitive and detailed. They must be very accurate, especially when recording names on the rolls. The geography of the electorates and the number of polling booths have to be taken into account also. Some country electorates are large in area and polling booths are widely scattered. Electoral officers have to travel hundreds of miles, ensuring that all the necessary electoral apparatus is provided at isolated polling booths before polling day and supervising polling on the day. The electorate of Wilmot covers almost half Tasmania and has an area of 13,000 square miles. It has about 175 polling booths. Only three other electorates in Australia have more. This large area and the great number of polling booths involve a great deal of work for the electoral officers in the conduct of elections. Halls and schools have to be booked and assistance has to bc engaged. Some of those who helped in the previous election may have passed away and others may not be able to take on the job again. Some refuse to take it on again because they consider that the pay is not high enough. However, I am not for the moment discussing the remuneration paid to those who assist on polling day. I direct my remarks particularly to the pay of permanent electoral officers who supervise the elections in the various electorates. This is another matter entirely. These men bear the responsibility for conducting elections accurately, conscientiously and dispassionately. We all agree, I am sure, that they have been well selected for the job. In the light of my experience of the conduct of elections in my electorate and other constituencies in Tasmania, I cannot speak too highly of the generosity of the electoral officers in giving advice, of their impartiality and of their firmness in refusing to become involved in politics - something that is very difficult in this age of high pressure politics. Often, because of short notice, considerable speed is required in making preparations for an election. At all times, care and accuracy must be maintained. Today, electoral officers bear greater responsibilities than ever before because the number of voters in each electorate throughout Australia continually increases. I urge the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony) to ensure that the pay of these officers is increased in proportion to the growing complexity, difficulty and responsibility of their work. I ask him to consider the matter carefully and particularly to take note of the length of time that has elapsed since the pay of these officers was last increased. The Minister may well be shocked when he learns what has been happening in recent years. Our electoral officers are usually the last persons to be thought of when conditions and pay are being improved. But they are the first to be thought of when work has to be done at election time. At this juncture, I feel compelled to criticise the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies) for his childishness in refusing to announce the date of the forthcoming Senate election. We are led to believe that some bodies in Australia have virtually been told unofficially by him that the date of the election will be 5th December, but no official announcement has been made. Not one electoral officer throughout Australia yet knows when the polling day will be. Let us consider what these officers have to do to prepare for a poll. Once the date is announced, they have to declare a date for the closing of the rolls. That may be three weeks ahead and rolls have to be printed. If the polling date for the Senate election is to be 5th December, the Prime Minister is imposing on electoral officers an almost impossible task in requiring them to have all the arrangements ready for that date since the official announcement has been so long delayed. Even now, on 14th October, we do not know when the Senate election will be held. The refusal to announce the polling date, in my view, constitutes a downright discourtesy to the electoral officers throughout the Commonwealth who are faced with the task of booking halls and schools for use as polling booths. I point out that if the polling date is to be 5th December, the schools will not have been cleared for the school holidays. Furthermore, at that time of the year, many halls are booked for various end of year functions and electoral officers may have to make sudden changes of the locations of booths. The imposition on these devoted men of this tremendous task by the withholding of the announcement of the polling date owing to the fantastic childishness of the Prime Minister is not fair, Mr. Temporary Chairman. The right honorable gentleman has virtually said: " I shall withhold the announcement of the date of the Senate election until the last possible moment." 1939 KIW 0 0 MACKAY, Malcolm Dr Mackay - What does Mr. Renshaw think? 1939 KDA Wilmot 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - What has that to do with the matter? 1939 KIW 0 0 MACKAY, Malcolm Dr Mackay - We should like to know when the State election in New South Wales will be held. 1939 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - That will be held next year, not within the next two months. The Prime Minister is supposed to have told a Liberal organisation that the date of the Senate election will be 5th December. His whole attitude constitutes sheer humbug. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Calwell) guessed the date of the last Federal general election and announced it long before the Prime Minister officially announced the date. Perhaps this will happen again. One of these days, honorable members opposite will grow up in these matters. I now wish to discuss a matter relating to Canberra, which I regard as Tasmania's front door city. In my view, Canberra is Australia's show place and one of the great show places of the world. Those honorable members who have told us in recent weeks of what they have seen in other countries throughout the world in their travels during the recess surely agree with me that no capital city in any other country is the equal of Canberra. I have never been to Brasilia, the new capital of Brazil, which is hidden in the jungles, but I am certain that for sheer beauty and perfection of planning Canberra beats all the rest of the world's capitals. I congratulate the National Capital Development Commission on the magnificent work it has done throughout the years in planning this city so that industry is located in areas apart from residential development and shopping centres, which have their own particular locations elsewhere. This is a city without slums. It is characterised by beautiful, wide streets and a multitude of flower beds and plantations. A total of 15 million pine trees are planted on the hills about Canberra for the benefit of future generations. I pay tribute especially to the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory (Mr. J. R. Fraser) for what he has done in having this city developed to the present stage. While he has represented the city, many a Minister has been forced by the sheer pressure of his representations to improve numerous aspects of the city's development. 1940 KKB 0 0 JESS, John Mr Jess - He is able to concentrate on the task for 365 days of the year. 1940 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr DUTHIE - That is true. The present Minister for the Interior has brought tremendous energy to his task. He does not belong to the party to which I belong, but I shall be fair and say that he is trying hard to master the various complex problems that he encounters in his job of administering this city. He is discharging his task in a way that I regard as very commendable, though I do not say mat a Labour occupant of the same position would not do the job better. I pay tribute to the Minister for what he has done so far. He certainly merits a tribute for the way he has hurried ahead the extensions to the present Parliament House. If only the Government would exhibit a similar sense of urgency about the construction of the new Parliament House, we might get somewhere. Even now, the National Capital Development Commission has not been given the green light to go ahead with the planning of the new Parliament House for this lovely city. This delay is outrageous. I now make another plea for the honouring of King O'Malley in this city, Mr. Temporary Chairman. I heard an honorable member say: " Oh ". It is all very well to say that. I point out that King O'Malley was the man who was most directly responsible for the establishment of this city. Yet he has not so far been honoured officially here. In my view, this is scandalous. He was born overseas and represented the Tasmanian electorate of Darwin in this Parliament for about 17 years, holding the office of Minister for Home Affairs in the Fisher Government at the time when the planning of this city was begun. His name is commemorated here only on a slab of stone situated on Capital Hill. This is part of a structure more reminiscent of a tomb than a national monument. Not one street in this city, not one cul de sac, not one post office has been named after him. He is commemorated by virtually nothing and has been completely ignored. I want to know why. The names of all sorts of individuals have been com,memorated in the suburbs of this city, though they were men not nearly so important as King O'Malley was in the political sense. This capital city would not have existed if he had not set to work on the task of planning and establishing it. If honorable members read the story of his life, they will realise how true this is. In the first place, King O'Malley did not want the National Capital established here. He was opposed to the construction of a capital city in this area. However, once he became Minister for Home Affairs, about 1910, to his great credit, he forgot or ignored his earlier objections to this site and fought like a tiger for the initial development of this city. He deserves to be honoured in this city. I have been fighting in this Parliament for six years to have his name honoured, but his name is not yet even on a street. It is a scandalous, disgraceful and disrespectful thing to treat in this way the memory of a man who did so much to get this city started. I know about his flam.boyancy and I certainly do not agree with all the manifestations of it. I do not agree with many of the statements that he made. But 1 think he should be honoured for what he did as a Federal Minister to get this great city started. I appeal to the present Minister for the Interior to forget all the prejudice displayed by his predecessors. It has been only prejudice that has prevented this man's memory from being honoured by naming a street or suburb after him. I appeal to the Minister to ensure, during his term of office, that the name of King ©'Malley is honoured by being bestowed on a suburb. We have a suburb called O'Connor, so why should we not have one called O'Malley? I make this appeal earnestly and sincerely to the Minister. This is the first time I have spoken to him about it since he has accepted the responsibility of his office. Other suburbs have been named for people who were less notable than King O'Malley, and I cannot understand the prejudice displayed by the Liberal Government through the years in not naming a suburb after this man. He was a figure of great stature in Tasmania and took a stand on the conscription issue. He showed tremendous courage in doing so. In fact, like many other people, he signed his political death warrant over the issue of conscription. His story is a fascinating one. It is the story of a man from another country rising to great heights in Australia by his own efforts. He pulled himself up by his own boot straps, with no help at all from anyone. These are matters that should he taken into account, and I appeal to the Minister to give the late King O'Malley a go in this great city of Canberra which we all admire so much. 1941 KWP Mallee 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr TURNBULL .- Every year I have spoken in the debate on the estimates for the Department of the Interior and now and again I have made some comments about the Australian Capital Territory. Tonight, I would like to speak about a matter that is administered by the Department of the Interior. First, I. want to compliment the honorable member for Watson (Mr. Cope), as I have done on a previous occasion, for the stand he has adopted in the matter of the procedure to be followed in deciding where the names of candidates should appear on ballot sheets at federal elections. Although the honorable member's name starts with " C ", he has said that he believes a draw should be made to determine positions on ballot sheets. Candidates with names start ing with " A ", " B " or " C " are sure of having their names at the top of the ballot sheet in that order. My name starts with "T" and I usually find it at the bottom. On only one occasion, when there were three candidates, was my name not at the bottom. It was then the middle of the three names. Probably it is of more advantage to be at either the top or the bottom than in the middle, because the name is less conspicuous when in the middle. The honorable member for Watson made out a good case. I thought he was very fair, because he would not benefit in any way from the adoption of his suggestion. I want to compliment him. 1 believe that a draw such as he suggests should be made, and I put that proposition to the Minister. I believe he should investigate the possibility of adopting this practice. I desire to speak also of the hours of polling. A move has been made to have the hours shortened, so that polling will still commence at 8 a.m. but will conclude at 6 p.m. I can hear a Queenslander interjecting. All I can say is that probably those shortened hours would be of advantage in certain areas, but we must have times to suit everybody in Australia because we are speaking of federal elections. If an election is held about December or the end of November, the people in the area that I represent are engaged in bringing in the harvest. Everybody who has been engaged in primary production knows that a farmer stripping oats or wheat must stay in the field as long as possible to get the job finished. No one can be certain that a storm will not arrive unexpectedly, leaving a good deal of wheat or oats on the ground, in which event the farmers will lose much of their harvest. For this reason I ask the Minister not to take any notice of this suggestion of shortened polling hours and to continue with the hours that operate at present, 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. These hours have proved very suitable for the whole of Australia. 1941 KXZ 0 0 PETERS, Edward Mr Peters - No. 1941 KWP 0 0 TURNBULL, Winton Mr TURNBULL - The honorable member for Scullin says: "No". He lives in a city. What does he know about conditions in the country? I do not want to engage in an argument with him about this matter. I merely say that he and his constituents can walk to the polling booth on Saturday afternoon when all the shops are closed and cast their votes. This is not the case with voters in the country, who have to go miles in many cases to cast their votes. It is true that people have motor cars to take them to the polling centres, but I remind the Committee that many of the men in my electorate and other rural electorates find it necessary to work long hours in the fields, and it is of great advantage to them to be able to come in and cast their votes between 7.30 and 8 p.m. There is another matter about which I have always spoken when the estimates for the Department of the Interior have been debated. The Commonwealth Electoral Act provides that when the Distribution Commissioners have decided on a quota of voters, that quota may be varied by as much as 20 per cent, up or down in electorates. I have always advocated that in country electorates the quota should be reduced wherever possible so that sizes of electorates may be similarly reduced. I represent an electorate covering 18,500 square miles. There is an electorate in Victoria with an area of less than five square miles. If every electorate in Victoria was of the same area as the one I represent, there would be only five members in this chamber from the whole State. At present there are 33. Members of the Labour Party have always said that they believe in one vote one value, but of course they are inconsistent, because the State of Tasmania has as many representatives in the Senate as has New South Wales or Victoria. Members of the Opposition carry their advocacy of one vote one value only as far as its suits them. Of course it does not suit them to have decentralised districts in the country with smaller areas and fewer voters, although the limitation provided by the Electoral Act would still leave country representatives, even if my suggestion were adopted, with quite large areas to look after. Members representing country electorates, however, would have a much better chance to get around those electorates, and the problem of decentralisation would be much easier to solve. When I spoke on this subject on a previous occasion a Labour member said: " Surely the honorable member for Mallee is not of the opinion that more people would go to live in country electorates simply because there were smaller electorates and more members ". He suggested that there were many reasons, not associated with electoral matters, why decentralisation was not being achieved. He referred to problems such as high freight charges. The answer is that if we could achieve decentralisation in the field of political representation, the greater numbers of members would soon deal, at both the Federal and State levels, for instance, with freight rates and have them reduced. This would induce more people to go to the country areas. I also want to compliment the honorable member for Indi (Mr. Holten) who spoke about the News and Information Bureau. I do not know exactly how this Bureau operates in the United States of America, but I believe that it should operate there to full capacity. It is a potent information and publicity medium that could be used to greater advantage in the United States of America and in other parts of the world to advertise Australia. If I may digress a little for a moment, let me say that it is surprising how many people in Australia itself are ignorant of their own country. Many people in the capital cities have no idea where certain towns in Victoria are situated. If I go to Western Australia, for instance, I have quite a job to get news from Victoria. The news is very sparsely presented in the newspapers. You do not get much news from other parts of Australia. Therefore, it is understandable that if you go right across to the United States pf America, where they are concerned with their own affairs, it is very hard to get information there to let you know what is happening in Victoria. There was a joke about the Mallee electorate. People like to make jokes about the Mallee, for some reason that I do not know. Somebody said in reference to the Mallee: "That is away up in the decentralised areas. Why, some people in the Mallee have never been to Melbourne." The man from the Mallee replied straight away: "Yes, perhaps that is so, but there are many people in Melbourne who have never been to the Mallee ". That illustrates the point that I am trying to make about publicity. The honorable member for Indi put forward a good case. I should like the Minister to take note of it and if by spending a few more thousands of pounds we can get better publicity in the United States than we have at present the suggestion advanced by the honorable member for Indi should be adopted. I am not suggesting that the Minister should undertake this scheme or seek a greater allocation immediately, but he should make investigations. Trips overseas, such as those taken by the honorable member for Indi, the honorable member for 'Wimmera (Mr. King) and other members, enable them to obtain information overseas that they can bring back to Australia for the benefit of this country. For that reason the more members who go overseas and come back to speak in this chamber of their experiences in other countries and make suggestions like those made tonight, the better it should be for this country. 1943 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser . - The honorable member for Indi (Mr. Holten) and the , honorable member for Mallee (Mr. Turnbull) both referred to the need for an expansion of the activities of the News and Information bureau within the Department of the Interior. I quite agree that that expansion should be provided for and that the Department should be provided with funds to engage journalists of the calibre required to produce the documents that are required properly to publicise this country overseas. But it is worth recalling that the Chifley Government maintained a Department of Information under the control of the then Minister for Immigration. The publicity obtained by that Department, not only for our migration programme but for other aspects of our development, was extremely valuable indeed. It must be remembered that it was the present Government that destroyed the Department of Information - destroyed the whole organisation of that Department and deprived Australia of the benefits of established sources of publicity which had been well nurtured and well maintained by the officers of the Department. First, the Govvernment cut out some of the publications that the Department had been producing and distributing to various centres throughout the world. So when the honorable member for Indi, who has not been here long enough to realise the value of the Department of Information, and the honorable member for Mallee, who remembers its value, make these suggestions they might just give a thought to the fact that it was their own Government which destroyed the Department of Information, which did so much valuable work for this country, and relegated this important service to a small part of the Department of the Interior. Admittedly, the clerical staff of that section is probably greater than the strength of the Department of Information as it existed, but the officers of the News and Information Bureau are dispersed among the various Commonwealth departments where they are providing the publicity for the Commonwealth departments and agencies within Australia. I believe that the vote for this essential service should be increased so that it will be able to provide a greater cover of publicity overseas to the great benefit of Australia. I hope that the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Anthony) will be able to take the advice given by the honorable members for Indi and Mallee and see that that is done. I want to refer to some aspects of development within the Australian Capital Territory. This afternoon the Minister for the Interior tabled a document headed " The Future Canberra ". In introducing the document the Minister made a statement to the House. I have not had an opportunity, of course, to study the document in detail, and I do not doubt that a close study of it will be valuable, but I want to refer to some of the Minister's comments when he presented this document to the House, because it does have a bearing on the question of the development and the growth of this National Capital. The Minister said this afternoon - The city has now gathered an impetus of its own making. The kind of stimulation which the Government itself has provided in the past is now becoming less evident as the city develops strong commercial momentum in parallel with any other Australian city of comparable size. That is true, but it is true to an extent only. It repeats a concept that has been expressed by the National Capital Development Commission. However, I think it remains completely true that if you took government out of this city the city would just fall apart like a pack of cards. There is nothing to maintain the city other than government activity. The commercial activity and the business activity has been attracted to this centre only because of the establishment of this place as the seat of government and the fact that governmental activity to an increasing degree is concentrated in this city. But take government out of it and there would be nothing left. The people would disappear and we would have the 14-story monuments to private enterprise in the insurance field marking the limestone plain. The Minister said also - In the particular situation that exists in Canberra, with land in public ownership, the authorities responsible for planning and development on behalf of this Parliament are presented with a unique opportunity of guiding and fashioning growth in a manner which will achieve the highest measure of convenience and amenity for the residents within a framework of economic development, and which will guarantee achievement of the character and qualities required in areas of national significance. The Minister said also - One must consider the growth returns that arc accruing to the Commonwealth from Canberra's development and note the extent to which these are being used to the benefit of the Australian taxpayer and indirectly the Canberra community. Of course the document which was tabled has references of a similar kind. There will, presumably, be some debate on this document, and, as I have said, I hope to have an opportunity to study it more closely. It has a grandiose title - "The Future Canberra ". Certainly the sub-title is " A Long Range Plan for Land Use and City Design " but from a cursory examination it seems that the document gives no picture of what the future Canberra will be. It uses a great number of words to say really very little, because it does not say the essential things. It talks of the population increasing to 250,000 in the next 20 years. We have a population now of 80,000, and we will have a population of 100,000 in 1967. In 1984- the Commission now hedges slightly on that date, but, generally speaking, in 1984 - the population will be 250,000. But the Commission does not say where those people will live. It does not say in particular terms where they will work, where they will receive their education, where they will worship and so on. But, essentially, it does not say where they will live. I cannot follow the Government's reasoning in this aspect of Canberra's development. We are not providing adequately for the housing of the people of Canberra today. Our planning is completely inadequate for the housing of the people of Canberra tomorrow and in the next decade and, indeed, in the next generation. I cannot understand why the Government does not see what must be done and ensure that it is done. It is no good talking and it is no good using picturesque language and most beautiful illustrations of the future Canberra if you are not going to provide the places in which the people will live. It is worth recalling figures which I have quoted to this House previously and which show that in the years of Canberra's greatest population increase the Commonwealth has built year by year fewer and fewer family housing units - fewer and fewer homes for families. It is true that the Commonwealth Government claims it is building Canberra in partnership with private enterprise. It is true that the Government is trying to shuck off as much as it can of its responsibility to build homes in Canberra on to private enterprise. Private enterprise cannot meet the needs of the many thousands who come here and who must be provided with rental houses. Those people cannot afford to buy a house built by private enterprise; nor can they afford the rentals that private enterprise must demand. The record of the Commonwealth Government in regard to housing over recent years has shown this continual reduction in the number of homes being built. In the financial year 1958-59, the Commonwealth Government built in Canberra 1,235 family housing units. They consisted of houses an two or three bedroom flats, all premises that will accommodate families. The population of Canberra then was 44,000. In the financial year 1959-60, the Commonwealth Government built in Canberra 1,151 Commonwealth housing units. The population of Canberra then was 50,200. In 1960-61, the total number of various housing units constructed by the Commonwealth fell to 868. In 1961-62, the figure rose slightly to 960. in 1962-63 the total number of family housing units built by the Commonwealth was 721. In the financial year just completed the total was only 736. In the "Civil Works Programme " which accompanies the Budget papers, provision has been made for the construction of 800 houses and no family flats in the financial year with which we are now dealing. I say to the Minister and, through him, to the Government that unless you are seised of the urgent necessity for planning for the future housing needs of the people of this city you will come up against the problem that this city has experienced far too often. After delay and procrastination take place, there is suddenly a realisation that the increase in population demands increased housing and we have this panic exigent type of construction that too frequently has marred this city and which will blot it in the future unless we act now and plan for the future needs of the people. This has happened in past years. Our own Labour Government was not free of guilt in this respect, but it might have had more excuse for its failure because of the difficulties of the post-war years and the need to attract the initial work force to this city. I make no criticism of the establishment of the Narrabundah pre-fab. area which was built to house the British tradesmen brought here to build Canberra. But I do criticise the regimented .construction of pre-fab. houses in the O'Connor and Turner areas. 1 criticise the subsequent action of this Government in continuing the construction of monocrete houses which have proved quite unsatisfactory in this climate. If we go through suburb after suburb we oan pick the signs of this panic home construction which is, in most aspects, sub-standard. In the financial year 1963-64, the Commonwealth Government constructed 736 family housing units. They were all houses, by the way; there were no family flats in that total figure. But if honorable members look at the housing statistics issued by the Department of the Interior, and particularly at the housing grants, it will be found that of that total of 736 houses, only 328 were allocated to people on the ordinary waiting list in Canberra. In the September quarter of 1963 - the first quarter of that financial year - the Commonwealth Government completed the construction of 243 homes, but only 149 of them were allocated to people on the ordinary waiting list in Canberra. In the December quarter of the year, 201 houses were constructed, but only 115 of those were allocated to people on the ordinary waiting list in Canberra. In the March quarter of this year only 47 of the 126 houses which were constructed were allocated to people on the ordinary waiting list in Canberra. In the final quarter of the financial year - that is, the quarter ended 30th June 1964 - the Commonwealth Government completed the construction of 164 houses in Canberra of which only 17 were allocated to families which were in Canberra and waiting for housing. The other homes had to be held for departmental personnel transferred from Melbourne to Canberra. In the same period, the number of people on the waiting list for housing in Canberra grew from a. total of 2,601 at 30th September 1963 to 3,361 at the end of June 1964. There is great need not only for an increased number of houses and an increased construction programme, but also for the Commission to review the design of its houses and to realise that the homes being built today are far too small for the family needs of the people of Canberra. This is a city in which it is now recognised that there is some need to provide additional housing and larger areas for the larger families. In another context earlier this evening, I suggested that it might not be a bad idea to appoint a committee of Mums who could have a look at the houses being designed for use in Canberra and advise the Commission and the Government on what is really needed in the housing position here. I think the Minister can take my assurance, although he does not really need it because he knows this himself, that the houses being built by the Commission today are far too small for the needs of proper family living. This is a factor in the housing situation that the Minister should study very closely indeed. I think that if he seeks the advice of women's organisations or even obtains the opinions of ordinary housewives in this city, he and the Commission will gain valuable assistance. 1945 BU4 Richmond CP Minister for the Interior 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY . - This debate on the estimates of the Department of the Interior has been very constructive. All honorable members who have spoken have put forward useful points of view. The honorable member for Watson (Mr. Cope) and the honorable member for Mallee (Mr. Turnbull) brought up the point that at election time candidates' names should be placed in position on a ballot paper as determined by draw rather than in alphabetical order. All I want to say is that a number of amendments to the Commonwealth Electoral Act will be introduced, and all these matters will be considered before those amendments are presented to the House. That would be an appropriate occasion, I think, for the House to debate such proposals. Whilst it seems to stagger some honorable members to learn that there has never been a draw for positions on a ballot paper - 1946 KDA 0 0 DUTHIE, Gilbert Mr Duthie - You would not want one. 1946 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - I do not speak from a personal point of view. It is quite interesting to note that whenever there is preferential voting, or a single candidate has to be selected, the alphabetical system seems to be maintained in the Federal, State, and local government spheres and in respect of many of our organisations such as farm marketing boards. So there seems to be every justification for having this system maintained. The honorable member for Watson produced a lot of figures in order to show that the candidate whose name appeared at the top of a ballot paper had a definite advantage over his rivals. I want to assure the honorable member that I have seen a lot of figures which prove that there is no advantage. When you start to argue with figures you can argue as you like to produce the result you want. But I am not speaking in this debate to raise any controversial matter. What I am saying is that when I bring before this House various amendments to the Commonwealth Electoral Act, this matter will be looked at. 1946 K5L 0 0 COPE, James Mr Cope - What about the arguments used by Mr. Perkins in 1939 when he sought to introduce such a proposal? 1946 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - The honorable member makes reference to a case submitted 25 years ago. AH I want to say is that in the period when the Labour Party was in office it maintained the alphabetical system. 1946 6V4 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr Daly - We were winning then. 1946 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - You must have had a lot of members whose names began with " A " in those days. I would like to pay a tribute to the honorable member for Indi (Mr. Holten) and also the other honorable members who spoke about the News and Information Bureau. I have been a member of this Parliament for a number of years, and this is the first time I have heard the estimates for this section of the Depart ment of the Interior discussed. I am very pleased about that because I consider the News and Information Bureau to be very important. The object of the Bureau is to try to project an image of Australia to other countries. It is not established for the purpose of disseminating news in Australia, although some of its publications such as " Facts and Figures " and " The Australian Handbook " have a much wider circulation in Australia than overseas. The Bureau has representatives in London, New York, Karachi, Delhi, Djakarta, Ottawa, Bonn, Paris, Kuala Lumpur and San Francisco. I hope that in the near future it will have an office in Japan also. The publication of information about Australia overseas is a very difficult task. When I was on a tour of India and Pakistan recently I heard people connected with the Press there refer to Australia as being a dead news country. Because we do not have revolutions, and because" we do not have many changes of government, Australia does not stir up much excitement in journalists overseas. Our sporting activities, however, do get a great share of publicity overseas. I know that in India and Pakistan the test matches between Australia and England are given as much space in the newspapers there as in Australia. Our hockey and athletics activities also command a great deal of attention. In America, Australian tennis receives great publicity. The material disseminated by the News and Information Bureau includes weekly circulars to our representatives in various countries. Those circulars contain information relating to political affairs, religious affairs, sporting activities, cultural activities, economic trends in Australia, and so on. Our representatives overseas circulate that information to the Press in the various countries. But, as all members of Parliament know, it is not always easy to have published in newspapers the news that you want to have published. It is certainly very difficult to have published in other countries the news that we want to have published about Australia. In projecting the image of Australia overseas, the Bureau adopts a special method for each country. For instance, in Europe, where we are promoting our immigration policy, we try to project an image of Australia as a very good country to which to come to live, a country with a good standard of living and a country in which immigrants will be welcomed. In South East Asia, we try to project the image that we wish to extend goodwill and friendliness, that we want to extend aid under the Colombo Plan by educating their young people at our universities and colleges. In America and Britain, we seek to project an image calculated to attract tourists to Australia. In other cases, we seek to attract foreign investment to Australia. It will be seen, therefore, that the Bureau has a difficult task to perform with the limited amount of finance available for its operations. As I have said, I welcome the suggestions that have been put forward and I am very grateful to the honorable member for Indi for bringing the subject up tonight. The honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Duthie) mentioned the salaries of electoral officers. I agree with him that our electoral officers have a full-time and difficult job. I believe that they should be paid a good salary. The electoral officers are responsible for the successful working of our electoral system, which is the very basis of our democratic system, and it is most important that we have well qualified men doing this work. I point out, however, that the question of increases in salaries for electoral officers is one for the Public Service Board. The fact that the honorable member for Wilmot has mentioned the matter in this Parliament must filter through to the Public Service Board and no doubt it will do these officers some good when they are submitting their case for an increase. I did not take kindly to the remark by the honorable member for Wilmot that the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies) should be censured for not announcing the date of the Senate election. It is not easy to announce the date of a Senate election, because the system is different from that Which applies to an election for the House of Representatives. As the honorable member for Wilmot may be aware, the Governors of the various States issue the writs for a Senate election. Section 12 of the Constitution gives them that right. When there is to be a Senate election, the Prime Minister has to write to the various Premiers seeking their approval of the date proposed. Until he receives word from the various States that the State Governors have approved of the date, the Prime Minister cannot make any announcement. In some States, especially South Australia, the position is somewhat complicated. For instance, in South Australia the announcement of the issue of a writ must be published in the South Australian " Government Gazette" nine days before the writ is issued. The announcement of a date for a Senate election is not as simple as it looks on the surface. There has been a good deal of talk about an election date. No doubt this is because information has leaked out from various State sources, indicating that there could be an election this year. The honorable member for Wilmot also mentioned the question of a nom de guerre in Canberra for King O'Malley. I have heard him speak about this in the Parliament on two occasions now, so that his sentiments are not unfamiliar to me. We have in Canberra the National Memorials Committee, consisting of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and certain other people. Proposals for memorials are submitted to this Committee, which has the right to accept or reject them. The acceptance of names for major Canberra projects depends upon the recommendation of that Committee. The honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory (Mr. J. R. Fraser), in addition to giving credit to the News and Information Bureau - which I acknowledge - spoke about a document, "The Future Canberra", which I presented today. I do not think it necessary to debate that document tonight, because I hope it will be looked at by the Parliament and debated fully here and in another place. It is an important document. In it, the Department is presenting to the Parliament a blueprint for the future development of Canberra to the stage when the population of the city is 250,000. At the present rate of growth, we expect that to be in 20 or 25 years' time. The honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory says that the document contains many words. I prefer to say that it represents a tremendous amount of work. It contains a blueprint for the development of three new major suburban areas for Canberra - the Woden district, the Belconnen area and the Majura area The plans have been drawn up after having obtained the best town planning advice available throughout the world. They make allowances for increases in traffic .population. During their preparation, due consideration was given to where employment will be available in the various areas and to the movement of people to the shopping centres of each district. I think it is awfully important if we are to have orderly development and to maintain the high standard of Canberra to have a plan to go to. As I said in my statement this afternoon, this is not a fixed plan. We are seeking informed criticism of it so that changes can be made. I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Committee on the Australian Capital Territory will look at this closely and will make recommendations concerning it and criticisms of it. It is only by people looking at it that we can get the best possible plan. The honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory said that the plan does not provide for houses and so on. This is only a blueprint. When Burley Griffin made his plan of Canberra he did not say how the houses were going to get there or where the shops or anything else would be, but in the course of time they came about. But the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory did stress the housing position in Canberra. 1 will confess that the housing position in Canberra is difficult. We have a rapidly growing city, in fact the most rapidly growing city in Australia. Canberra is growing at the rate of 10 per cent, to 12i per cent, a year, and it is frightfully hard to meet all the demands of a city which has such growing pains. We are building houses; of course, not as many as everybody would like. We are limited by the finance available, but the number of houses we are building is somewhat in excess of the figure quoted by the honorable member. 1948 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - I quoted the census figure. 1948 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - I refer to the document which was presented in the House a few weeks ago. It is the report of the National Capital Development Commission for the last year. It said that the residential accommodation completed and handed over to the Department was 823 houses and 36 bachelor flats. As well, 153 hostel beds were provided for Commonwealth Hostels Ltd. 1948 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - Is the Bureau of Census and Statistics wrong? Its figures are here. 1948 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - I am only going on what the Commission says. This is the authority which actually built the houses. This report had to be audited, so this figure' is probably the correct one. 1948 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - The Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics gives a figure of 736. 1948 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - For what date? 1948 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - This is for the June quarter of this year. 1948 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - Completed housesGovernment houses? 1948 JWX ALP 0 0 FRASER, Jim Mr J R Fraser - Government houses completed, 736. 1948 BU4 0 0 ANTHONY, Doug Mr ANTHONY - There is a. difference between the figures, and I promise the honorable member that I will have a look to see where the difference lies. For the coming year we are planning to build 800 houses plus a hostel with 500 beds. I would like to say one other thing to the honorable member for the Australian Capital Territory: Although the number of houses being built today might not be as great as the figure he mentioned for 1959, in 1959 we had rather abnormal conditions. We had a tremendous influx of departmental personnel being transferred from Melbourne to Canberra - something like 1,100 personnel were transferred to Canberra that year - and it was necessary to build a lot of houses to meet this movement of population. This year, and during the years after 1959, the annual movement of public servants to Canberra has been at the rate of about 350 to 360. I have been having a close look at the Housing Branch in Canberra. We have sought more staff. We have sought to improve the efficiency of this branch. No doubt there will be further changes in the course of time, but sizes of houses, types of houses, houses to which extensions can be easily made - all these things must bc looked at. The possibility of making houses more readily available for people on low incomes must be looked at. It is quite true that the number of houses built by private individuals has greatly increased, and I think some credit must go to the Government for making loans readily available for people who want to build houses. Loans of up to £3,750 each are available through my Department. There is also adequate money in the building societies in Canberra to encourage people to build their own homes. I think I have covered most of the points brought up here tonight, and I thank the various honorable members who have brought forward different suggestions, of which I will take note. If something can be done about these suggestions I will do what I can. Proposed expenditures agreed to. Progress reported. 1949 miscellaneous Motion (by Mr. Fairhall) - by leave - agreed to - That, in accordance with the provisions of the Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies Act 1964, this House elects Mr. Beazley and Mr. Wentworth to be members of the Council of the Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies, and to continue as members for three years from this day. 1949 miscellaneous Motion (by Mr. Fairhall) - by leave - agreed to - That Mr. Bosman be appointed a member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, in the place of Mr. Dean, resigned. 1949 adjournment 1949 Motion (by Mr. Fairhall) proposed - That the House do now adjourn. 1949 KRK Gellibrand 0 0 MCIVOR, Hector Mr McIVOR .- I desire to raise a matter tonight which I do not think will meet with any opposition from any member of this House. I want to refer to a young lady whose name has been blazoned across almost every newspaper throughout the world - Dawn Fraser. I think we are all aware that her achievements will probably never be equalled by any woman swimmer in the' years to come. She has won three Olympic gold medals. She won Olympic medals before some of the swimmers who have been competing against her in Tokyo had learned to swim. I would say that she has probably done more than any other amateur athlete to put Australia on the map. I agree with the remark which I read in the Press tonight; that it may be truly said that Dawn Fraser has won Olympic immortality. Many other athletes have been honoured for the deeds they have performed in the particular sports in which they have been interested. I think it would be fitting for this House, through the courtesy of the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies), to send a letter of congratulation to this young woman as a tribute to her courage, ability and the wonderful service that she has rendered to Australia and the cause of amateur swimming. But I go further and with all due respect suggest that the Prime Minister initiate action to recommend her for recognition in the New Year honours list. A distinction of that kind would be a fitting reward to this fine ambassador for Australia. I have been associated with Miss Fraser's swimming career for a number of years. I know of her courage. I know of the difficulties, frustrations and disappointments that she has faced at times. Anybody with less courage than she has could not have overcome the handicaps that she has overcome. I am sure that you, Mr. Speaker, will support my endeavours to see that we do the right thing by Miss Fraser. Her fight back after the dreadful accident in which she was injured and her mother killed in the car in which Dawn was driving should be rewarded. To face up to an arduous training programme and compete in the Olympic Games with the determination to win another gold medal and set a new Olympic record is something that should be rewarded. I ask you, Sir, to lend your support to the appeal that I make for a letter of congratulation to be sent to Miss Fraser and for recognition of her achievements by the bestowal of a royal honour upon her. 1949 DB6 Mackellar 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr WENTWORTH . - I wish to refer briefly to the Yugoslav Settlers Association. It will be remembered that on other occasions I have referred to this organisation's Communist connections. Recently Mr. Jurjevic, President of the Association, had Communist connections. He said that his Association " did not admit either Communist or Ustashi sympathisers ". He implied that he regarded Communists as disgraceful and was opposed to them. I think, since I have been in communication with Mr. Jurjevic about these matters, that I should place on record some of the public - not private - facts which would allow me the conclusions that I have drawn. There are some Communist associations in this body. First I refer to the Melbourne "Sun" of 10th September last in which Mr. Jurjevic is reported to have said that a picture of Marshal Tito which had been placed in the position of honour in his Association's rooms had been damaged. Now, Marshal Tito is a Communist. Here is an association which, on the admission of its President, places a picture of a Communist in a position of honour. Yet the Association states that it abhors Communism. This does not add up. Then we see that the Association has shown continuous concern for the interests of the present Yugoslav Communist regime. It may be said that these people are Yugoslavs. This is something that must be kept in mind, but they are supporting a Communist regime in Yugoslavia against other Yugoslavs who wish to change the regime. In November last, shortly after the Association adopted its present name, it sent a representative to interview the Eureka Youth League. Now, the Eureka Youth League is a 100 per cent. Communist organisation. That is a matter of public record. Next we have the evidence attested in this House that when the Association was having a public meeting it issued an official invitation to the Communist Party to be present. If the Association regarded the Communist Party as something abominable, as it seemed to imply in the newspaper statement to which I have referred, why did it issue a public invitation to this abominable party to come to its meeting? Finally, there is the fact that there is a continuous parallelism between Communist Party propaganda and the propaganda issued by the Association and by Mr. Jurjevic. I do not need to rely on any private information to establish the truth of the statement I made. This is something that goes deeper and the House may wish to look at what seems to have happened on the major scale. The campaign which the Yugoslav Settlers Association is at present mounting against anybody who organises against Communism had its origin in a conference which was held in New York in September 1962. It will be recalled that the Croats in Yugoslavia believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are being oppressed by the ruling Communist Titoist clique and they are organising for some kind of self determination. This is something which honorable members opposite have supported in regard to other people who have organised in Communist interests in the past. These people organised the meeting in New York. The meeting was important to Marshal Tito for two reasons. First, he felt that his own regime in Yugoslavia could be disrupted. Secondly, he felt that exposure of what he was doing to oppressed minorities might reduce the monetary aid that he was receiving from the United States of America. It was important for him to counter this movement. So, under the prompting of Marshal Tito and his organisation, a campaign against all anti-Communists was started throughout the world. What happened in Australia is only one part of a world wide picture. The move started in Australia just a few months later with the formation of the Dalmatian Settlers Association under the chairmanship of the same Mr. Jurjevic, with considerable Titoist promptings. It was an association, based on the idea of attacking the people who wanted self determination for the Yugoslav minorities. But then something much more sinister happened. It will be recalled that although Tito was a Communist he was not in full communion with Moscow. Moscow wanted to bring him into full communion. What did Moscow do? It said that the Communist Party throughout the world, controlled by Moscow, had a very big propaganda organisation. It said that the Yugoslavs had only a small propaganda organisation. Moscow offered to put its Communist propaganda organisation throughout the world at the service of the Yugoslavs so that the Yugoslavs might defame all anti-Communists and at the same time try to defame any body endeavouring to obtain self determination for Yugolsav minorities. It seems fairly well established now, on the facts, that this was a bargain struck between Tito and Moscow. That is Communist diplomacy working at the highest level of subversion. Moscow needed to bring Tito onside. The House will realise that in the last few months Tito, in point of fact, has moved onside. He has been paid by Moscow and the payment has taken the form of putting at the service of Yugoslav organisations throughout the world the much more extensive network of Communist subversion and propaganda. I ask honorable members only to look at the Communist Press articles on this matter over the last two or three years to sec how true that statement is. They will find the evidence of what I have said in the columns of the Communist Press. It may well be that Mr. Jurievic is not a party to what is happening. He may be simply the pawn that is used, and he may not know what it is all about. I think that is perfectly possible. But, whatever the position is, the Communists are combining with the Titoists in an organised campaign throughout the world to defame anybody who wants self determination for Yugoslav minorities. The House will remember that from time to time the honorable member for Yarra (Dr. J. F. Cairns) has had something to say about this matter. Some of his statements - one in particular - I have described in the House as false in fact. The Chair did not allow me to persevere with the presentation of proof of my statement, so I have taken the only course open to me. I have written down the proof and tonight I have circulated copies of the document to all honorable members so that they may read it. If the House will give me permission, I will be only too happy to lay on the table of the House a copy of what I have written. I ask for leave to do that'. 1951 10000 0 0 MCLEAY, John Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir John McLeay - Is leave granted? 1951 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr Calwell - Yes. 1951 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Leave is granted. 1951 DB6 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr WENTWORTH - I present the following paper - Pamphlet entitled "True or False? Evidence in connection wilh statements made by Dr. Cairns". I can only say that that is a factual document. It proves the truth of what I have been saying, namely, that the statements made by the honorable member for Yarra, in point of fact, were false. 1951 BV8 Melbourne Leader of the Opposition 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL . - The honorable member for Mackellar (Mr. Wentworth) once more has regaled the House with some of his strange views on Communism and other things. I just remind the House that, according to the Melbourne "Age" of 10th June 1963, the honorable gentleman addressed members of the Victorian Young Liberal and Country Movement at their annual political science conference at Cowes. The newspaper report says - Public naming of Communist party members in Australia was necessary to preserve our democratic way of life, Mr. Wentworth, M.H.R., said today. He goes to the security service often enough. I do not know why he is not able to name members of the Communist Party himself, instead of asking the Government to name them. According to the press report - I have not heard it contradicted at any time by the honorable member or anybody else - in the course of that speech, which was a rather remarkable one, he said - We cannot destroy the Communist party in Australia without going beyond the normal democratic processes, which in the past have tended to help rather than hinder their subversive activities. What does that mean? Does it mean that the honorable gentleman does not believe in democracy and wants to use Fascist methods or something that would be repugnant to the average person? He is sensitive to that feeling, because he did use the words " without going beyond the normal democratic processes". Does he mean that he wants to abolish trial by jury, that he wants to imprison people without trial, that he wants to name a person as a Communist . . . 1951 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam - And have preventive detention. 1951 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - Yes. Does he mean that he wants to have preventive detention following that? In the spirit of the organisation whose meeting he was addressing, he said - There is a tendency in Australia to use Communism as an election issue only, but this is not a good reason in itself to oppose Communism. I cannot follow exactly the logic of that argument. Apparently he does not want to use Communism as an election issue only, in the interests of the Liberal Party, he wants to use it at all times for the purpose of frightening people, smearing people and destroying people's reputations, and he does not want any person whom he attacks to have any resort to law. He does not want any protection by the normal use of democratic processes. 1952 KYS 0 0 REYNOLDS, Leonard Mr Reynolds - He probably calls himself a Christian. 1952 BV8 0 0 CALWELL, Arthur Mr CALWELL - He probably offends even more grievously by calling himself a democrat. Then he went on to say - tt is most important to maintain an effective and unrelenting fight against Communism in Australia until it is completely wiped out. Nobody on this side of the House and nobody in any part of either House of this Parliament favours the Communist philosophy. We all regard it as evil. We all oppose it. But we will not destroy Communism by legislating against it, by smearing people and by abandoning democratic processes. The way to get rid of Communism is to remove the evil out of which it grows, to remove the soil in which it takes root. I have never heard the honorable member for Mackellar say anything against monopoly capitalism. I have never heard him say that there is anything wrong with monopolies, cartels, trusts, combines or any similar things which today are holding Australia to ransom and are impoverishing many people. Industries are being destroyed and small businesses are being destroyed as a result of the excesses and inherent rotteness of monopoly capitalism. If the honorable member for Mackellar would attack the cause of Communism or the sources from which it develops, he might be doing something to wipe out Communism in this country, but he rants about it night after night and day after day, and worse than that, wastes money that he ought to be spending on his wife and family in printing stupid documents and circulating them around the Commonwealth, that shows the extent to which the honorable gentleman is around the bend. I leave it at that. 1952 DB6 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr Wentworth - Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a personal explanation. I have been entirely misrepresented by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Calwell). He said that I wanted to abolish trial by jury and things like that. The statement that he read meant exactly what it said, namely, that we should name Communists. That I regard as being perhaps, rather outside the democratic processes. In this House and elsewhere 1 have said that we should do that, subject to proper safeguards and proper protection. I have said no more than that and I say no less than that. The Leader of the Opposition entirely and deliberately misrepresented what I said. Now, Sir, there is another point 1952 10000 0 0 SPEAKER, Mr Mr SPEAKER - Order! The honorable member must not debate the matter. He can only point out where he has been misrepresented. 1952 DB6 0 0 WENTWORTH, William Charles Mr Wentworth - There was another point of misrepresentation. The Leader of the Opposition said that I said that Commu.nism should not be used as an election issue only. He went on to put a gloss on that by saying that I would use Communism for certain other purposes. I meant what 1 said. Opposition to Communism should be used not only as an election issue but as something substantial - something which all Australians should express at all times. 1952 6V4 Grayndler 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr DALY .- I wish to buy in, only briefly, to this discussion. What the honorable member for Mackellar (Mr. Wentworth) said has been answered very effectively by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Calwell). I point out to the honorable member only that the naming of Communists is a very dangerous procedure unless you have proof. I recollect sitting in this chamber one night many years ago when the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Menzies) listed a number of people who he said were prominent Communists, and the next night he had to publish personally an apology to five of those people because he had been mistaken. Untold damage is done to the prestige of certain people by the dangerous procedure of, without proof, calling them names or saying that they were affiliated with certain organisations. Like other honorable members, I am a little sick and tired of listening to Schmidt der Spy, as he might be called, night after night in this Parliament bringing forward proposals such as he has tonight. Therefore, while he was speaking tonight I took note of those who were sitting in the chamber and who were supposed to be listening to him. There were 34 members of the Government parties in the House when he started to speak. Several of them were asleep, including two Ministers. Some of them were showing no interest at all in what he said, but the vast majority, to their credit, wore expressions of disgust. That is why we on this side of the chamber see no reason to take much notice of the constant statements of the honorable member at a late hour at night, when they are of interest to no-one but himself. I rose tonight to place on record a very great tribute that has been paid to the New South Wales Labour Government. The New South Wales Government is constantly under attack in this Parliament, mainly by members of the Australian Country Party and, of course, some misguided members of the Liberal Party. The New South Wales Government has been in office for 24 years. It has a remarkable record of achievement and no doubt its record will be endorsed at the election to be held next year, particularly in view of certain events that are now occurring in the State. I had in mind some of the attacks made by the honorable member for Cowper (Mr. Robinson) and others when I read an article in the "Daily Mirror " on 1st October. It is headed " Ours is the Best-run Australian State " and says - The Federal Government regards N.S.W. as the best-managed State, according to a confidential letter to business executives. The letter was circulated by an Australian-wide firm of research specialists. Quoting sources "close to the Commonwealth Government" it says that Victoria is regarded as perhaps the worst managed State. Of course, Victoria is run by the Liberal Party. The article continues - It says that Queensland and Western Australia are given fairly high marks on a score card based on financial stability and financial responsibility. The letter critically analyses the suggestion by the Victorian Premier, Mr. Bolte, that he might introduce a special State income tax next year. I think that theory has been exploded. The article goes on - The firm describes Mr. Bolte's move as repetition of his 1959 "pressure tactics" which, it said, gained Victoria an advantage over N.S.W. At this year's Premiers' conference, the letter says, N.S.W. made it clear to the Commonwealth that any further special treatment for Victoria would lead to grave trouble. The Commonwealth had subsequently refused to help Victoria out of its financial difficulties. From then on, Mr. Bolte was facing grave difficulties in restoring order to Victorian finances. The letter says few responsible people in the Federal Government believe Mr. Bolte will go ahead with his State income tax plan. They believe he is using the scheme to put more pressure on the Commonwealth to find money for Victoria. The big worry now is that the Commonwealth will again give In to pressure and make another special deal to help Mr. Bolte, the letter says. I read the last part of the article for the information of honorable members. It is good to see a tribute being paid by the Federal Government to the Labour Administration in New South Wales. It may not please the members of the Australian Country Party who constantly decry the achievements of the New South Wales Government, but it must be a source of satisfaction to those few members of the Country Party who are fair minded. The State run by a Labour government is said to be the best governed in the Commonwealth. Having in mind the comments in the article about Mr. Bolte, the time is probably appropriate for me to congratulate the Country Party on withdrawing its support for the Liberal Party in Victoria. I feel a little measure of regret at the breaking up of this happy family. In Western Australia the children are squabbling; there is an upheaval in the family in Tasmania; the members of the family have just been sorted out in Queensland, in some way, with one or two annihilated, a few others dead and some other minor happenings of that character. In this Parliament, the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. McEwen) recently reacted very violently to suggestions of disloyalty to the present Government. These squabbles are so apparent that Opposition members cannot be blamed for thinking that there may be some substance in rumours that the coalition is breaking up. I think it is quite appropriate that we should record that the members of the Australian Country Party, with due respect to them, have always shown a fair amount of political wisdom. They are at last aware of the nature of the Liberal Party, and the people of Australia can rejoice at this fact. I would like to congratulate the intelligent members of the Australian Country Party on what is happening south of the border. This is an indication that no matter how long it takes to sink in, the members of the Australian Country Party will at last realise that some of the people with whom they associate on their side of the Parliament are hardly worthy of their support. I mention these factors because I think they are worth recalling. After all, we hear many gibes at the differences of opinion that occur on our side of the fence. But we are told that all is well on the other side of the Parliament, that all is rosy, that there is absolute unity and that they walk forward as one. Mr. Bolte does not think so and, as I said, the parties in other States apparently do not agree. 1954 KYS 0 0 REYNOLDS, Leonard Mr Reynolds - What about Mr. Chaffey? 1954 6V4 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr DALY - Yes, and there is Mr. Chaffey in New South Wales. I wonder whether the Deputy Leader of the Country Party in New South Wales has the support of the Leader of the Country Party in this Parliament when he expresses his views on the actions of Ansett Transport Industries Ltd. in that State. I wonder whether the views of the State Country Party are endorsed by the Country Party in this Parliament. When ail is said and done we want unity and stability in government. This is a matter of concern to me. I sorrow to see a long association breaking on the rocks. It is depressing to those of us who have watched the unity of spirit amongst honorable members opposite. We cannot help but feel sad when we realise that, after all these years, the association of the Government parties is about to be shattered. We on this side of the Parliament have always thought that this was a shot-gun wedding, and we know that such weddings end in strange ways. But the parties on the opposite side have stuck together quite commendably. In a way, the members of the Country Party are enjoying what I am saying. They know that there is substance in my remarks. I do not blame them for being here and listening so attentively to me. Mine is the type of speech that they would like to make, but I realise that they have certain loyalties that they must show, at least in public. They cannot get up and make these remarks from their side of the fence and 1 do not mind obliging them by making this speech. I see the Ministers sitting on the treasury bench. They are very silent on the issues I have raised. One of the most significant features of the proceedings in this Parliament in recent times has been the silence of members of the Liberal Party and Country Party on what is happening about preferences and so on in the States. Surely we are entitled to know whether there is any truth In the vile rumours that have been circulating about the selection of candidates for the election. We would like to be reassured that all is well on the other side of the Parliament, because after all it is very depressing for us to see this disharmony when the country needs that forthright leadership that comes from unity and solidarity. At this late hour of the night I place these few sentiments on record. 1 again record my pleasure on learning that the best run State is a Labour State. That is not a bad slogan, in a way. I commend the Country Party for waking up to the Liberal Party in the States. While I do not exactly like to see a revolution, it would not be so bad for the country, possibly, if the Country Party in the Federal sphere acted towards the Liberal Party as the State branches have been acting. 1954 YI4 Cowper 0 0 ROBINSON, Ian Mr ROBINSON .- In view of the remarks made by the honorable member for Grayndler (Mr. Daly), in which he said that New South Wales is the best run State in the Commonwealth, it would be a pity if we were not to place on record some of the information that was recently issued by the Commonwealth Statistician. I have in mind the information relating to retail sales recorded in each State in 1963- 64. These figures are very interesting. They disclose that New South Wales has the poorest record of any State in the field of retail spending. This surely must have some bearing on which is the best run State. Let me come to the point and give the figures. First, there was a rise of only 3.6 per cent, in retail sales in New South Wales in the last financial year. This was the smallest increase in the Commonwealth and compares with an average increase throughout the whole of Australia of 5.6 per cent. 1955 KCI 0 0 DEVINE, Leonard Mr Devine - Work out the figures for the other States. 1955 YI4 0 0 ROBINSON, Ian Mr ROBINSON - I shall be very glad indeed to work out the increases for the other States. In South Australia, the increase was 8 per cent. In Queensland - a State that is very well managed, if I may just intrude that comment - the increase was 6.4 per cent. In Victoria, which is not badly run either, the increase was 6.2 per cent. In Western Australia, the increase was 4.1 per cent. These figures reflect very clearly the difference between a State administration that is concerned about the welfare of the residents of the State and administrations that are concerned only about political ambitions and a desire to drive the economy further and further away from a basis of stability founded on the fundamental principle of giving the people the greatest possible opportunity to improve their lot. The lot of the individual in New South Wales, according to this record, is worse than the lot of the individual in any other State. I hope that the Australian Labour Party will take this to heart and that its friends in this House will heed the facts of the situation, give good advice to their colleagues in New South Wales and tell them what they can do to help directly the electors in that State. May I turn briefly to motor car sales. I believe that they reflect the prosperity of a community. The increase in motor car sales last financial year compared to the preceding one was less in New South Wales than in any other State, being only 4.1 per cent., in contrast to a national increase of 11 per cent. These records are indisputable. The facts are very telling indeed. It is sheer humbug for the honorable member for Grayndler to rise in this chamber and extol the virtues of a State administration without submitting any facts, figures or other information to back his assertions. I conclude by saying that the record of the present Commonwealth Government, in the last few months in particular, has demonstrated very clearly what can be done by an administration that tackles the task of looking after the welfare of the individual. We have full employment today despite the economic difficulties that have been encountered. This full employment provides better opportunities for all sections of the community. Thanks to the policies of this Government, as opposed to those of the Australian Labour Party, we are able to show this excellent record of good government. Question resolved in the affirmative, j 1955 23:33:00 House adjourned at 11.33 p.m. 1956 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The following answers to questions were circulated - 1956 (Question No. 348.) 1956 KXI 0 0 WEBB, Charles Mr Webb asked the Treasurer, upon notice - Is he able to say whether the New Zealand and United Kingdom Governments have expressed concern at recent take-overs of their countries' enterprises by foreign interests and whether legislative action is being taken by these Governments to control overseas take-over bids? In view of growing concern regarding the dominance of overseas interests in some Australian industries, particularly in the mineral industry, will he initiate arrangements for joint Commonwealth and State action to protect Australian industry and to ensure that Australians play a full part in the exploitation of their own country? 1956 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Harold Holt - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - In his recent Budget Speech, the New Zealand Minister of Finance stated that the New Zealand Government had been considering whether legislation was warranted on the general question of overseas investment in New Zealand, including in particular take-overs of New Zealand concerns by overseas interests, but that no decision had been made on whether such legislation would be introduced. With regard to the United Kingdom, I have no knowledge of any expressions of concern or any new legislative proposals on the subject by the United Kingdom Government. The Government's attitude on the subject of overseas investment in Australia was stated in the following terms in the Prime Minister's Policy Speech of November 1963 - "Investment from Overseas Investment from overseas countries has taken an important place in our economy. Over the last fifteen years it has amounted to over £1,500 million. This investment has produced great advantages, but under some circumstances produces problems which need to be handled with care and understanding. As, from a national Australian point of view, we would wish to see new capital from overseas employed for the great purpose of developing new industries or extending existing ones with all the benefit of overseas skills and experience, we will always have a particularly warm welcome for new capital designed to these ends. We also believe that fears and misunderstandings are least where there is an Australian participation in shareholding and management, and most when there is no more than a mere change of ownership without more. There is, we believe, a growing recognition of this in the minds of intending investors. The Terms of Reference to the Committee of Economic Enquiry include 'Overseas investment in Australia (including likely sources and trends and an assessment of its significance to the Australian economy)'. The Committee's findings will be of great value and interest." I have nothing to add to that statement by way of reply to the honorable member's question. 1956 (Question No. 516.) 1956 KDV 0 0 JONES, Charles Mr Jones asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice - How many Commonwealth Departments, which employ electrical, metal and building tradesmen and apprentices, have special apprentice training centres? How many apprentices are trained in the centres, and in what trades is training provided? 1956 009MA LP 1 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMahon - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - The Navy, Air Force and Army have special apprentice training centres for the training of enlisted apprentices. The Departments of Supply and Civil Aviation also have special training centres for their apprentices. The Department of Supply has a total of 871 apprentices under training in the centres in the following trades: - Patternmaker, Fitter/Turner, Boilermaker/ Welder, Sheetmetal Worker, Blacksmith, Heat treatment Tradesman, Electroplater, Refrigeration Mechanic, Instrument Maker, Electrical Mechanic, Electrical Fitter, Aircraft Mechanic (Electrical), Radio Tradesman, Painter/Signwriter, Plumber, Carpenter/Joiner, Cabinet Maker, Wood Machinist, Motor Mechanic, Optical Tradesman. The Department of Civil Aviation has 8 apprentice motor mechanics in its training centre. 1956 (Question No. 570.) 1956 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam asked the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice - On what dates were the States asked to indicate their attitudes to the ratification of the conventions and acceptance of the recommendations adopted at the 43rd (1959) and subsequent sessions of the International Labour Conference? What has been the date and nature of the replies received from any or all of the Slates? 1956 009MA LP 1 0 MCMAHON, William Mr McMahon - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - The States were asked to indicate their attitudes to instruments adopted at the 43rd and subsequent sessions of the International Labour Conference on the following dates - 43rd Session (1959) on 18th January, 1960. 44th Session (1960) on 30th November, 1960. 45th Session (1961) on 5th March, 1962. 46th Session (1962) on 14th January 1963 (New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia) and on 14th June 1963 (Western Australia, Tasmania) 47th Session (1963) on 26th November 1963. If the 16 instruments in all are considered and the replies from all States are counted we have definite replies as follows - For ratification or acceptance - Conventions Nos. 112 and 113, Recommendation No. 112 - Victoria. Recommendation No. 113 - Victoria, Queensland. Convention No. 115, Recommendation No. 114, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia. Recommendation No. 115, Western Australia. Recommendation No. 117 - South Australia. Recommendation No. 118 - Queensland, Tasmania. Recommendation No. 119 - Tasmania. Against ratification or acceptance - Convention No. 112 - Queensland, South Australia, Tasmania. Conventions Nos. 113 and 114- New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Tasmania. Recommendation No. 112 - South Australia, Tasmania. Convention No. 118, Recommendation Nos. 113 and 115 - South Australia. Convention No. 117 - Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia. Recommendations Nos. 116 and 119 - Victoria, Queensland, South Australia. Convention No. 119 - Victoria, South Australia, Tasmania. Recommendation No. 118 - Victoria, South Australia. For the rest a deal of correspondence as yet incomplete has been taking place. Only in respect of the instruments adopted in 1963 has there been to date no reply to my Department's requests: in the case of New South Wales as to the three instruments, in the case of Queensland as to one. 1957 (Question No. 577.) 1957 YF4 0 0 CROSS, Manfred Mr Cross asked the Treasurer, upon notice- What Commonwealth assistance is given to Western Australia through the Commonwealth Grants Commission to assist authorities in carrying out welfare and other functions for the benefit of the Aborigines of that State? What sum was spent for the benefit of Aborigines in the Northern Territory during the financial year 1963-64? 1957 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Harold Holt - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - The special grant paid to Western Australia on the recommendation of the Commonwealth Grants Commission is a grant in aid of general revenue and is not intended to meet a specific class of expenditure. However, subject to the usual scrutiny of the Commission, expenditure by Western Australia on Aborigines and Aboriginal welfare is, together with many other items of expenditure, included in the Budget result of that State as adjusted by the Commission for its purposes. The adjusted Budget result of a claimant State is a major factor taken into consideration by the Commission when making its recommendation. During the financial year 1963-64 the sum of £2,360,321 was spent directly for the benefit of Aborigines in the Northern Territory. Other expenditure in the Territory in 1963-64 would benefit Aborigines but the amount of this cannot be identified. 1957 (Question No. 591.) 1957 JVB 0 0 MORTIMER, Jack Mr Mortimer asked the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice - Does the present passenger rail service between Woomera and Adelaide leave Woomera at 10 p.m. on Fridays even though personnel on weekend leave are ready and available to travel at 6 p.m. on that day? Does this journey occupy nine hours of the leave period on the trip to Adelaide and ten and a half hours on the return to Woomera? Will he give consideration to providing an earlier and fast passenger rail service between these points at weekends to enable personnel who wish to visit their families and friends in Adelaide to spend the maximum time with them? 1957 JXI LP 1 0 FREETH, Gordon Mr Freeth - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - Yes. Normally the journey to Adelaide occupies 8 hours 20 minutes, and from Adelaide 9 hours 5 minutes. So far as Commonwealth Railways are concerned, departure from Woomera at 6.30 p.m. on Fridays could be arranged, but an earlier arrival in Adelaide would depend upon the South Australian Railways providing an earlier connecting service from PortPirie Junction. If a through connection were provided the time of arrival in Adelaide would be approximately 3 a.m. on Saturday. Likewise, on the return journey, if a later departure than 4.35 p.m. from Adelaide on Sunday were desired, and could be provided by the South Australian Railways, the Commonwealth Railways could also provide a correspondingly later connecting service than the present which is scheduled to depart Port Pine at 9 p.m. and arrive at Woomera at 1.40 a.m. on Monday. 1958 (Question No. 628.) 1958 JOO 0 0 BEATON, Noel Mr Beaton asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice - Are Australian passenger or freight carrying commercial aircraft required to carry lighter loads when using wet or slippery runways? When assessing take-off and landing standards, did the Department take into account the differing circumstances of wet and dry runways? 1958 KDT LP 1 0 FAIRBAIRN, David Mr Fairbairn - The Minister for Civil Aviation has supplied the following information - Australian practice follows world-wide rules and makes no variation to the take-off and landing distances required for operations from wet or dry runways. An aircraft load is planned well in advance of the time of landing so that it would be impracticable to operate aircraft to standards which would vary the load it could carry dependent on whether the runways for take-off and landing were wet or dry. Take-off and landing standards make allowance for the fact that many take-off and landing operations occur on a wet runway. The allowances made have proper regard for safety and are at least as stringent as international standards of I.C.A.O. Indeed, in some cases, the Department has required greater distances than those required by overseas authorities under the same conditions purely to ensure more adequate safety margins should the runways be wet. 1958 (Question No. 640.) 1958 K9M 0 0 JOHNSON, Leslie Mr L R Johnson asked the Treasurer, upon notice - What are the details, in such form as to permit identification, of shares, property, &c, held by the Commonwealth Controller of Enemy Property? 1958 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Harold Holt - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows - The Commonwealth Controller of Enemy Property holds - 15,000 fully paid £1 shares in Schering Pty. Ltd. 27,785 fully paid £1 shares in J. Gunton (Australia) Pty. Ltd. In addition there is an Equity suit pending in the Supreme Court of New South Wales to determine whether the Controller of Enemy Property is entitled to a further 10,080 shares in that company. Warehouse premises in Day and Sussex Streets, Sydney. An amount of approximately £120 payable in the estate of Franz Andreas Kohler deceased pursuant to an order of His Honour Mr. Justice Smith made in the Supreme Court of Victoria on 21st July 1964. Copyrights (and the income arising therefrom) in respect of certain countries are still subject to control under the National Security (Enemy Property) Regulations. 1958 (Question No. 641.) 1958 K9M 0 0 JOHNSON, Leslie Mr L R Johnson asked the Minister for Territories, upon notice - Is it possible that Japanese soldiers are still hiding in any Australian Territory? If so, what efforts are being made to apprehend these stragglers so that they may be returned to their homeland? 1958 JOA CP 0 0 BARNES, Charles Mr Barnes - The answer to the honorable member's questions is as follows - The only Australian Territory where Japanese soldiers could still be hiding is the Territory of Papua and New Guinea. While this is possible, it is improbable; particularly in view of the intensive patrolling that took place in connection with the compilation of the common roll and the recent House of Assembly elections; and the fact that in remote areas, patrol officers invariably inquire whether any strangers are present in the locality, and are well informed. No member of the Japanese forces has been found since 1955 when one survivor from the Coral Sea Battle was discovered in the Milne Bay District and was repatriated. 1958 1958 009MC LP 1 0 HOLT, Harold Mr Harold Holt - On 3rd September, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Collard) asked the Prime Minister a question without notice on gold. The following information is additional to that given by the Prime Minister in his answer - As forecast in the Prime Minister's interim reply of 3rd September, I spoke strongly at the recent Annual Meeting of the International Monetary Fund on the price and production of gold. I said: "I do wish, however, to dwell on one topic which, having regard to its importance, has been given inadequate attention in the reports both of the Fund and of the Ten. That is the question of gold. Perhaps it is thought that its relationship to the International Monetary System is so well known as to require little elaboration. But the Fund Report covers the first thorough-going review of the functioning of the International Monetary System made after twenty years of operation. This review remains incomplete without a full analysis of the place of gold in the system. In any discussion on international liquidity, the place of gold, the price of gold and the adequacy of supply of gold should all receive attention appropriate to their importance. The present International Monetary System is largely based on gold. Gold makes up the major part of total international reserves. It is significant in this context that the major industrialised countries, particularly those of Europe, firmly and persistently retain the largest portion of their reserves in gold, and there is apparently an undiminishing demand for the metal for this purpose. The Fund requires each of us to supply a substantial proportion of its assets in gold. Yet in our studies of the problem of international liquidity and possible means of ensuring that it will increase sufficiently in the years ahead, it seems to be assumed far too readily that the supply of gold will prove adequate to needs and that the price of this metal, fixed at 35 dollars to the ounce 30 years ago, should be held at that value. There has been no discussion whether steps should be taken to increase the supply of metal that provides the foundation as well as the greater part, of international liquidity at present. On page 102 of the Fund Report for 1964 there is a table of the value of world gold production, gravely disturbing in its implications. It illustrates the dramatic decline in gold production in almost every country of the world since 1940. If we leave South African production out of the table, we find that the value of free world production of gold has slumped from U.S. 772 million dollars in 1940 to U.S. 399 million dollars in 1963. Some may take comfort from the fact that the total value of free world production has moved from 1,264 million dollars in 1940 to 1,360 million dollars in 1963. An increase of this dimension in the production value of any commodity would be regarded as modest enough over an interval of 23 years, but detailed examination reveals that, wilh the notable exception of South Africa, whose value of production increased spectacularly over that period from 492 million dollars to 961 million dollars, of the remaining ten major producing countries listed, only one, Ghana, has shown an increase, and this only a marginal movement from 31 million dollars to 32 million dollars. The combined value of all the others has shown a sharp decrease. Of the countries not listed individually but grouped under the heading "Other", the value of production has declined from 157 million dollars to 65 million dollars. We would have been discussing this question of international liquidity much earlier if gold reserves had not been propped up by South African production, which has more than doubled in value over the past ten years. But even in relation to that source of supply, the Fund Report has a sombre comment. It says on page 103 that 'South African production will have nearly reached its peak in 1964 or 1965. Thereafter it may level off for a few years, and subsequently decline.' It must be assumed from their reports that neither the Fund nor the Group of Ten contemplate any change in the price of gold. It remains to be seen how long this commodity can be held at a price fixed 30 years ago. It is against nature to hold it there unchanged indefinitely, regardless of general cost and price movements, and for my own part, I think we merely increase the difficulties of adjustment, the longer an adjustment is delayed. However whatever views we may hold on that aspect, we clearly need a compre hensive and up-to-date study by the Fund of the causes of the decline in gold production in so many countries, and an examination of methods whereby the supply of a metal fundamental to the liquidity of the International Monetary System can be substantially augmented. I would hope that by the time of our next meeting, such studies would not only have been put in hand, but their results made available to us early enough for a more searching discussion then." As to gold subsidies, certain forms of subsidy - particularly those that involve a uniform payment per ounce for all or part of the gold produced in a Member country - constitute, in effect, an increase in the price of gold. For this reason, each Member proposing to subsidise gold production is under an obligation to consult with the Fund on the specific measures which it proposes to introduce. The Fund attitude towards gold subsidies stems from the view that the official price of gold should be kept stable. As long as the major Members remain determined to keep the official price fixed, it follows that there is no possibility of amending the Fund rulings on subsidies. The Commonwealth Government has consulted with the Fund on its own gold subsidy legislation and the Fund has approved it as consistent with ils policy on gold subsidies. 1962 (Question No. 514.) 1959 6V4 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr Daly asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - How many commercial television station licences have been granted in (a) each State and (b) Australia since the introduction of television? In each case, what is (a) the name of the station, (b) its location, (c) the number of shareholders, (d) the paid-up capital and (e) the name of each director? What was the profit or loss in respect of each station in each year since its establishment? 1959 KIF LP 1 0 HULME, Alan Mr Hulme - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - Licences for commercial television stations have been granted as follows - The particulars requested of each station were as follows - It is not my practice, nor has it been the practice of former Postmasters-General, to make public, financial results of particular stations as disclosed by the information which they furnish for purposes of the Broadcasting and Television Act. The honorable member will however be aware that under the Companies Act, the licensees of the stations are obliged to furnish an annual return to the State Registrar of Companies and it is assumed that the information required would be available from those returns. I might add that these returns are not submitted to me 1962 (Question No. 535.) 1962 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - On what dates were contracts last let for the extension or erection of telephone exchange buildings at Carramar, Liverpool and Pendle Hill? On these dates how many unsatisfied telephone applications were there in the respective exchange areas? How many telephone services were the new buildings expected to provide? When were the buildings completed or when are they expected to be completed? How many unsatisfied telephone applications were there at the time of completion, and how many are there at the present time? 1962 KIF LP 1 0 HULME, Alan Mr Hulme - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - 1962 (Question No. 541.) 1962 KXZ 0 0 PETERS, Edward Mr Peters asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice - How many farms were there in Australia at 30th June, 1947, and how many are there at the present time? How many ex-service personnel have been placed on farms in each State since 1947? How many other persons have settled on the land since 1947? 1962 JLR CP 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr Adermann - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - The number of rural holdings in Australia (excluding the Northern Territory) has varied over the period in question as follows - Statistics of rural holdings in the Northern Territory were collected for the first time in 1956, when the number of holdings was 229. This number rose to 281 in 1963. The number of holdings allotted to ex-service personnel under the War Service Land Settlement Scheme between the end of 1947 and 30th June, 1964, was as follows:- The total number of ex-service personnel placed on farms would be slightly higher than the number of allotments, because of instances where a farm has been surrendered by the original allottee and a second eligible ex-serviceman placed on it. There is no record of the extent to which this has occurred. In addition many ex-service personnel have secured farms by private means, or have been placed on farms under arrangements other than those of the War Service Land Settlement Scheme. The information presently available does not enable an answer to be given to this question. 1962 (Question No. 643.) 1962 JO8 0 0 BARNARD, Lance Mr Barnard asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Does his Department own land at Newstead, Tasmania, on which it is intended to erect a post office? If so, when was the land purchased and what was the original purchase price? Has any of this land been sold since it was purchased? If so, (a) what area has been sold, (b) to whom was it sold and what was the sale price and (c) what area has been retained? 1962 KIF LP 1 0 HULME, Alan Mr Hulme - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - Yes. 29th March, 1951. Total cost of acquisition, £5,2781s. 3d. Actual amount paid to vendor, £5,000. Yes. (a) 38.6 perches; (b) H. F. Rudd, former owner, for £3,000; (c) 27.5 perches. 1962 (Question No. 659.) 1963 KID 0 0 LUCHETTI, Anthony Mr Luchetti asked the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice - To what countries, at what prices and under what terms was Australian wheat sold on the export market from 1954 to the present date? 1963 JLR CP 0 0 ADERMANN, Charles Mr Adermann - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows - The extensive details of our trade in wheat are shown in the Commonwealth Statistician's Oversea Trade Bulletins. The period from 1953-54 to 1957-58 is covered by Table 12 on page 485 of Bulletin No. 55; for 1958-59 to 1962-63 by Table 14 on page 690 of Bulletin No. 60; and for 1963-64 by pages 15 and 16 of Part 1, Preliminary Bulletin: Oversea Trade, 1963-64. In accordance with trade usage the Australian Wheat Board does not publish all details of its contracts (especially prices). Sales were almost invariably for cash until the spread of credit sales by other exporting countries in recent years forced the Board to give credit terms. Prior to the commencement of sales on extended payment terms to Mainland China in May 1961, the Board made sales on deferred terms as follows - 1955 to Poland 1956 to Roumania 1961 to Egypt. Terms of payment for the sales to China have been made public. These have all been on 12 months credit but the terms have varied from 10 per cent, cash, 40 per cent, in six months, and 50 per cent in 12 months for sales up to June 1962, to 10 per cent, cash, 20 per cent, in six months, 20 per cent, in nine months and 50 per cent, in twelve months for sales after June 1962. 1963 (Question No. 451.) 1963 6U4 0 0 WHITLAM, Gough Mr Whitlam asked the Minister for External Affairs, upon notice - Has Australia since ratified any of the 10 International Labour Organisation conventions relating to the Territory of Papua and New Guinea which were listed in my question to which the Acting Minister replied on 15th October 1963 ("Hansard", page 1824)? Which members of the I.L.O. have applied any of these conventions to their non-metropolitan or trust territories? When did each such member apply each convention? 1963 ZL6 LP 1 0 HASLUCK, Paul Mr Hasluck - The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follows - No. Application of relevant I.L.O. Conventions is as follows - 1965 (Question No. 629.) 1965 6V4 0 0 DALY, Fred Mr Daly asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice - On what date was the Department of Health established? What was the name of each Minister in charge of the Department since that date, and will he indicate the party allegiance of each Minister? 1965 KVR LP 1 0 SWARTZ, Reginald Mr Swartz - The Minister for Health has furnished the following replies - The Department of Health was established on 3rd March, 1921. The following particulars relating to the Ministers in charge of the Department since that date are given for the honorable member's information - 1965 (Question No. 629.) 1965 JOO 0 0 BEATON, Noel Mr Beaton asked the Minister representing the Minister of Health, upon notice - Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the statements by a team of top cancer specialists called together by the World Health Organization that cancer prevention should be organised first on the national and then on the international level and that mass screenings of persons over 30 had been successfully carried out in several countries and were the ideal prevention method? If so, in what countries were these screenings carried out? Are the results of these screenings available to the Department of Health; if so, what were those results? Will he initiate in Australia a programme of mass screenings on a national basis in order to diagnose cancer and so enable early treatment? 1965 KVR LP 1 0 SWARTZ, Reginald Mr Swartz - The Minister for Health has furnished the following replies - Numerous statements concerning cancer prevention have been made in association with the World Health Organization, and I am not aware of the precise statements referred to by the honorable member. However, in Volume 16 of tha 1962 "W.H.O. Chronicle" there is a paper entitled "Cancer Services in Europe" which compares different countries and contains the following statements: "In the Scandinavian countries cancer falls within the province of the family doctor and the general hospital." "The situation in the U.S.S.R. and the countries of eastern Europe is very different." There is a network of "cancer stations, cancer dispensaries and hospital cancer departments." "Examinations of persons over 30 or 35 years of age are conducted by teams of specialists." An endeavour will be made to ascertain the results of these screenings. It is not one of the normal functions of the Commonwealth Department of Health to conduct this sort of activity, which is more properly a matter for the State Governments and the AntiCancer Councils. 1966 (Question No. 662.) 1966 JZX 0 0 COLLARD, Frederick Mr Collard asked the Minister for Supply, upon notice - When auction sales, such as the one recently held at Talgarno to dispose of Commonwealth equipment and land, are to be conducted in country areas, will he arrange for the conduct of the auctions to be offered' to auctioneers residing and operating in the country instead of being given to a metropolitan auctioneering firm? 1966 KEN LP 1 0 FAIRHALL, Allen Mr Fairhall - The answer to the honorable member's question is as follows - Auctioneers appointed to conduct auction sales on behalf of my Department must have the experience, capability, financial standing and organisation to ensure that the maximum financial return will accrue to the Commonwealth. Where my Department is satisfied that a local auctioneer has these essential requirements he is normally appointed. The honorable member has mentioned disposal of land in his question but I would point out that my Department has no responsibility for the sale of land, the statutory authority for which is the Department of Interior.