1902-03-21 01 01 0 SEN 11144 0 Senate 1902-03-21 The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30a.m., and read prayers. 11144 motion 11144 11144 KHE Queensland F 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS -before the business of the day is called on I wish to call attention to the proposal of the Government to send aw11y a tlrird contingent of 2,000 men to South Africa. I move- That the Senate at its rising adjourn until 10:30 a.m. to-morrow Last evening I objected to the manner in which this proposal was brought before the Senate. It appeared to me that the Government should have given the members of this Parliament a chance of discussing it. 11144 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson It is a Ministerial act,and they take the responsibility. 11144 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS Would it not be wise on every occasion of this kind to ascertain the opinions of honorable members generally? When it was determined to send away the first contingent the Ministry submitted the following motion, which were agreed to by both Houses That this House takes its first opportunity, in view of the despatch of a federal contingent to South Africa, to express its indignation at the baseless charges made against the honor of the people, and the humanity and the valour of the soldiers of the Empire. That this House aflinns the readiness of Australia to give all requisite aid to the mother country in order to bring this war to an end. There is nothing in those resolutions entitling the Government to send away thousands of men at intervals of three or four months. I hold a very different view as to the means to be taken to bring the war to an end. No one in this Parliament or in Australia could defend the slanders upon the honour of the British nation, which were circulated by a, section of the press in Germany and other countries. It appears to me that the Government are sheltering themselves behind those slanders in order to prevent a fair discussion as to the continuance of the present term. Australia is heartily sick of the war and would like to see it ended an early date. I do not desire to make anybody responsible for my actions this morning. I do not take this step as a member of the labour. The opinions of its members are divided on the question of continuance of the of the war and the means to be taken in this war, and a means to be taken to bring it to an end. I think we ought to adopt some other method than that of sending contingents. If we do send contingents, we ought to intimate to the security of state for the colonies that this parliament is in the favour of offering terms to the Boers other than an unconditional surrender. It is a crying shame to demand the unconditional surrender of a brave people. The war could have been prevented by wiser councils on part of Mr. secretary Chamberlain and Lord Milner. That question has not been gone into lately, because the people of Australia have not been able to get a tent- not a hundredth part, I believe -of the information concerning that war which they should have been able to obtain. No doubt honourable Senator who claim that it is their special function to declare very eloquently their great loyalty to the empire will be supposed to designate and end rapidly as pro-Boers and disloyal artists. I hoped that that kind of thing will be dropped, and that honourable Senators will endeavour act more calmly and consider the question on its merits. I am as much a Britisher as in any other member of the commonwealth. I have every reason to be a Britisher, for I have sprung from British people, and I am anxious to stick to the British nation. I submit that in asking that better terms be offered to all Boers I am acting in the best interests of the British nation and in the interests of Australia. The very same charges and epithets that are being levelled against those who would cry a halt were levelled and the statemen of the old country who endeavoured to deter England from going to ware with the American colonies. The greatest names in political history, which occur most readily to use, I suppose are the names of those who took up the cause of the American colonists. Pill, Fox and Burke were called pro-Americans, just as some of us are called pro-Boers. But the warnings which those men uttered turned out to be quite justified after holding out for six years the British gave in. I do not think that such a thing will happen in connexion with the Boer wa4r. I believe that if they so desire the British can exterminate the Boers. It behoves those of us who have taken some interest, perhaps a late interest, in this war, and the cause which brought it about, to endeavour to bring it to an end by some means other than an unconditional surrender. 11145 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen The honorable Senator is doing the right thing to prolong it. 11145 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The same remark was addressed to Pitt, Fox and Burke when they deprecated the carrying on of the war with the American colonies, and with just as little justification. Who for a moment believes that my action here today will urge De la Ray, Del wet, and other Boer generals to continue the struggle? It is absurd to say that it will Probably honourable Senators are to some extent influenced by the loyalist meetings which have been held throughout Australia. Some of these loyalists are meetings that been organised by clever electioneering agents who are anxious to take advantage of the sentiments expressed by some who have been called pro-Boers, and to make political capital at their expense. 11145 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Is the honorable Senator referring to a meeting at Waratah, a labour constituency, where the electors asked a labour member to resign for talking as he is talkign? 11145 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART They did not do anything of the kind. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I said- " some of these loyalist meetings." Some honourable Senators must know that, in each State, certain Members of Parliament have ventured to express the opinion that the Boer war was unnecessary, and to go even further than that. Their political opponents saw a very fine chance to take advantage of those statements. They said- " The whole of the public in the Commonwealth are loyal, and here is a chance for us to express our loyalty, and emphasize the conduct of our political rivals who have said that the war was unnecessary." In organizing meetings they have been able to obtain the services of enthusiastic loyalists, who really believe that the only way to bring about peace in South Africa is to continue the war to the bitter end, even if it involve the wiping out of the Boer male population. I do not think we should be deterred in our efforts by any agitations of this kind. Loyalist meetings may he called here and there throughout the Commonwealth and widely reported, but, if ever a meeting is held on the other side of the question, very limited accounts are given of it in the daily press. And here I would ask the editors of the daily press throughout Australia whether they think they are doing right in suppressing the arguments or the speeches of men- 11146 K0F 0 0 PEARCE,George Foster Senator PEARCE And distorting them too. read this morning's account of what took place yesterday evening. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I do not know that the editors are guilty of the distorting, but they are certainly guilty of a, line of policy which leads to the suppression of almost everything which is said in favour of bringing the war to an immediate end and in favour of the Boer people. Honourable Senators who laugh, as Senator Fraser did a while ago, seem to forget that the war has cost up to the present time £140,000,000. 11146 KKL 1 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER That is nothing to the British Empire. A hundred years ago it owed £900,000,000, but now it owes £700,000,000. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS Senator Fraser is in the happy position of not being likely to suffer by any of the results of the war. 11146 KKL 1 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER I have shown my loyalty. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The bank balance of the honourable Senator is so high that no matter what are the prices of bread and the necessaries of life, neither he nor any of those depending on him will have to go without anything. 11146 KKL 1 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER I have proved my loyalty in hard cash, and that is more than the honorable Senator has done. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS This war has cost at least £140,000,000 in cash, and the lives of 30,000 or 40,000 Britishers from the old country, and the lives of 10,000 Boers. 11146 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD What has that to do with us? That is their business. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS It is all very well for the honourable Senator to say it is their business. He belongs to that class of men who made a great display of volunteering their services for the war, but who never went, and who were very pleased indeed that the Government declined to accept their offer. 11146 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD The honourable Senator might make an effort to speak the truth. 11146 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT Order. Senator Neild will withdraw that observation. 11146 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD What observation, sir? 11146 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT That Senator Higgs was not speaking the truth. 11146 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD I beg pardon. I said that he might make an effort to speak the truth, and I repeat it. 11146 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT It is an implication that he is not speaking the truth, and it ought to be withdrawn. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I do not take exeption to it. 11146 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT Very well. 11146 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD I take exeption to an unwarrantable charge of cowardice being made here. 11146 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT I must ask Senator Higgs to confine himself to the subject matter of the motion, and not to make personal reflections on honourable Senators. I do not think he ought to accuse Senator Neild of cowardice, and the implication ought to be withdrawn. 11146 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I beg to withdraw the implication. I was drawn into making that remark by an interjection. It is a very great calamity, not only that the war should cost such a large sum, but that so many of the lives of our people should be sacrificed. 11146 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Major GOULD I ask, sir, whether the remarks of the honourable Senator are pertinent to the subject-matter of the motion, which I understand is the Government's proposal to send 2,000 men to take part in the war in South Africa.I take this point of order now, because honourable Senator has been wandering from that question, and if this digression is continued it will only tend to provoke unpleasantness. 11147 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT I do not think I can say that the reference to the number of men who have lost their lives in the war is not relevant to the subject, which the honourable Senator has moved the adjournment of the senate to discuss. 11147 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I think it is very relevant to the question. I have moved the adjournment of the Senate with a view to endeavour to let Mr. Secretary Chamberlain know that an unconditional surrender by the Boers is not desired by the Commonwealth. Members of Parliament may ask what has the Commonwealth to do with the question? I remember a speech made by Mr. Chamberlain same time ago in which he said that the colonies must have a voice in the settlement of the war. If there is no expression of opinion from the Commonwealth of Australia, the people in England may be under the impression that since we are sending contingents so readily we are all anxious that the Boers should be compelled to surrender unconditionally. There are some people who have expressed their opinion publicly, but there are many thousands of people in the Commonwealth who are not able to express their opinion publicly, and their opinion is in accord with ours—that it is not worthy of the great British nation to exterminate a brave race such as the Boers have proved themselves to be. We are draining Australia of thousands of our best citizens by sending these contingents away. They include some of our bravest men. Can Australia bear their loss? We have raised some 15,000 or 16,000 men, and are now proposing to raise 2,000 more. Can Australia with its limited population continue to send to South Africa thousands of men? We read a great deal in the press about the the scarcity of workmen to labour on the dairy farms, and on the sugar plantations. There is a scarcity of labour to carry on the industrial work of Australia. Yet here we are, sending out some of our most healthy and courageous men, probably to leave their bones on the South African desert. What are we going to receive in return for all this expenditure of blood and money? Are we going to bring about anything like peace in South Africa if the British Government continue to demand the unconditional surrender of the Boers I Would it not be better for the British Government to offer terms which the Boers would be able to accept I Would it not be magnanimous on their part to do so? Honourable Senators seem to forget that throughout the British colonies in South Africa many thousands of residents are related by blood and marriage to the Beers of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal. Do honourable Senator, recognising as they must that the Beers are a brave, independent people, think that harmony will be brought about by demanding the last ounce of blood that can be extracted from the race? I submit, sir, that Great Britain ought to take up a magnanimous attitude 11147 JYQ 0 0 EWING, Norman Kirkwood Senator EWING We are paying now for doing that before. 11147 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS Britain has shown that she has the resourcefulness and the capacity to defy any nation on the face of the earth. The Boers hoped, of course, to keep the old country at arm’s length. They have failed. 11147 JYQ 0 0 SYMON,Josiah Henry Senator Josiah Synon They hoped to drive the British into the sea. 11147 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS With all respect to the honourable and learned Senator, that view, has not been supported by the soldiers, and writers who went to South Africa to investigate the situation. 11147 K54 0 0 SARGOOD, Frederick Thomas Senator Frederick Sargood Thoroughly Supported 11147 JYQ 0 0 SYMON,Josiah Henry Senator Josiah Synon It was proclaimed over and over again. 11147 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS It was proclaimed by a few men, probably, who thought they could drive the British into the sea, and the cry was taken up by those interested in bringing about a war in South Africa, until really the British people and the Australians commenced to believe that there was a movement on the part of the Boor race in the Transvaal and the Orange Free State to drive the British into the sea. 11145 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Why were they importing arms for years before the war, if it was not for that object? 11147 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The Boers did not commence to import arms to any extent until about 189, when they discovered that Dr. Jameson, Mr. Rhodes, and other people proposed to bring about the Jameson raid. It was then, of course, that they did their level best to protect themselves by importing arms. 11148 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Their own published records show that the importations commenced long before then. 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS How long before? 11148 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Sufficiently long to justify my statement, at all events. Senator EWLNG--YOU are only rebels to the Empire, and traitors to the Crown that is all? 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS That is Laughable! 11148 JYQ 0 0 EWING, Norman Kirkwood Senator EWING It may be laughable, but it is true! 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The statement is so absurdly ridiculous that I need not ask you, Mr. President, to request the honourable and learned Senator to withdraw it. A statement like that is just as slanderous as other statements to which exception has been taken and which have been withdrawn. But the honourable has learned Senator is not serious in proclaiming me and others rebels and traitors to the Crown, I am sure. I do not propose, in moving this motion, to defend Mr. Kruger and his Government, and their methods. No doubt if I had been in the Transvaal---I do not allude to the Orange Free State, which appears to have been well governed--I should have been a member of the labour party, which was endeavouring to oust Mr. Kruger, and which opposed his policy in such matters as granting concessions to the dynamite monopoly, having railways constructed by private syndicates, and refusing to extend the franchise. 11148 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT Does the honourable Senator think that is relevant to the subject before us? 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I think it is relevant for this reason—that I propose to refer to the argument that honourable Senators have used, that this war was brought about through the very great grievances under which the British in the Transvaal suffered, on account of the dynamite monopoly, the railway monopoly, and the refusal of the franchise. But we who know something of British politics are aware that we have monopolies within our own dominions just as great as the dynamite monopoly. Take, for example, the Eastern Extension cable monopoly. 11148 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT I do not think that is relevant to this subject. It is not relevant to the sending of 2,000 troops to South Africa. 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I only wish to show by illustration that if we turn our eyes to grievances under which our own people are suffering, we shall find plenty of room for reform. It appears to me to bean overdrawn argument to say that the British in South Africa were suffering under such grievances as the dynamite monopoly and the refusal of the franchise when there are many millions of British subjects in the old country who cannot get the suffrage, and many British people who are suffering under the disadvantage of monopolies in railways and in connection with such concerns as the Eastern Extension Cable Company. Now, sir, I do not want to go back too far. 11148 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson I should have objected if I had thought the honourable Senator was going to deal with anything but the sending of time 2,000 men. 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS Senator Dobson is an ultra loyalist, and he deprecates anything like criticism, no matter how healthy it may be. 11148 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson Keep the 2,000 men. 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I would ask honourable Senators to put to themselves the question whether there has been any real discussion in the Federal Parliament upon this question since the Commonwealth was stablished. We have sent away contingents, and the matter has not been properly discussed. Now we are proposing to send another couple of thousand men, and honourable Senators deprecate further debate. My view is that the war was brought about by the mine-owners of the Transvaal, who wanted to reduce the already low wages of the black people. It was not so much a question of the franchise as of compelling the natives to do three or four months’ work in the year. After all the information we have obtained about the war since it began, we ought to do our best to bring it to a conclusion 11148 K54 0 0 SARGOOD, Frederick Thomas Senator Frederick Sargood Hear, hear; but not in the honourable Senator's way. 11148 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The honourable Senator is entitled to his view. I do not object to his holding those views, but I hope to bring about something like a request on the part of those who think that the war should end by more peaceable means, that it shall be brought to an end speedily. I trust that honourable Senators will not endeavour to stop this discussion by doing what is, no doubt, within their rights. My opinion is that the British Government should offer the Boers some terms like the following:—They should grant an amnesty to all those who have taken part in the war, and should promise the Boers of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, self-government on Australasian lines within the next three years; and if those Boers will settle down to work peacefully under a Constitution such as we possess in Australia, the Imperial Government should give them a federation of the South African colonies with a Constitution such as we possess within a Period of five years. 11149 K6J 0 0 CHARLESTON, David Morley Senator CHARLESTON Would they accept those terms? 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I have no idea whether they would or not, but I believe they would back down if such terms were offered to them. But when the Boers are asked to back down unconditionally, I do not see how, brave as they are, they can afford to do it. They feel that it is their duty to stand by the men who went from other British colonies to support them in the war. They ask themselves, " How can we unconditionally surrender and hand over those who are called Cape rebels, perhaps to be shot or imprisoned for life." True to the instincts of their race, and to their traditions, Boers say, “No, we would rather sacrifice our lives than abandon the men who came to our aid." 11149 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson If the honorable Senator does not look sharp, I shall object. 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The honourable and learned Senator can take his own course. If he likes to stifle discussion, let him do so. 11149 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson I am anxious to get on with the country's business. 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I have only occupied half an hour upon a question of national importance concerning time whole British Empire. Probably the honourable and learned Senator has a great respect for the late Lord Chief Justice Russell, who, when the Boer war was spoken of, was afraid that it might mean the end of the British Empire. 11149 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Some of you would not be sorry for that. 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS That is a cheap sneer. I deny the imputation totally. 11149 KKL 1 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER Hurry up, now! 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS I am not going to hurry up. If honourable Senators like to shut me up by brute force they may do so. 11149 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson The Honourable Senator has already had half an hour. 11149 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS Honourable Senators do not seem to realize the loss which accrues to the people of Australia through the war. They do not recognise that this war is costing the working classes of these States something like £2 or £3 per family per annum, in consequence of the increase of the price of the necessaries of life. The State of Victoria has failed to float a loan on account of the South African war. There is no doubt about it. The war is increasing the price of loans. I personally believe that Australia has gone in for too much borrowing, but, at all events, we shall have to raise some loans, and the money will have to be paid for at a higher price than would otherwise have been the case, on account of the South African war. There would be no loss to British prestige if the British Government were to offer such terms as I have mentioned. Great Britain has proved to the world and to those nations who would like to we her defeated that she can hold her own. She is in a far better position now, with 230,000 trained men in South Africa, to hold her own than she was at the commencement of this war two yenta ago. Honourable Senators, I trust, will not see any disadvantage in being magnanimous and generous and in offering such terms as are likely to be acceptable to a brave and courageous people. 11149 JYD New South Wales 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR It is unnecessary for me to say many words in reply to the honourable Senator's speech. I am glad that he has been allowed to proceed without that rule of the Senate being enforced which enables any honourable Senator at any moment to stop a discussion of this kind; because I think that, if an honourable Senator has a statement to make upon a matter of so much importance he ought to be allowed to make it. But at the same time, I hope the Senate will see that there is no necessity to continue the discussion after I have made the statement I have to make in reply to the honourable Senator's charges. In the first place I say that the policy of Australia has been for years, and very sightly so, to connect herself indissolubly with the maintenance of the integrity of the Empire. She has shown that in every possible way in which a people can declare a sentiment. She has poured out her blood in justification of it. That is the position which Australia takes up to-day and will take up without wavering until this war comes to an end. I am sure that Senator Higgs is actuated by motives of consideration and humanity towards the Boers; but I tell him this that if his policy were adopted, and the Empire were divided up into clashing opinions as to the expediency of carrying on this war, it would never come to an end. It is mistaken kindness to suppose that by creating a division of opinion throughout the Empire on this subject the war will be brought to a conclusion. There is one way, and one way only, in which the war can be brought to a conclusion, and that is by the absolute conquest of the Boers who are now in rebellion. There is no other way. No one could he more impressed than I am with the patriotism, the bravery, and, in many instances, the chivalry of the people who have fought this splendid fight; but it is a war to repel an invasion; a war to break up the British Empire in South Africa; a war for the purpose of asserting the ascendency of the Boers and driving the British into the sea. Under those circumstances, it can come only to one conclusion, and that is by the complete ascendency of the Empire. Whatever it costs we are bound to see the end of the war. I am not going into the question of its origin, save to say that, in my opinion, it was absolutely justified on the part of the Empire. Whether it was or not, are are now in the throes of the struggle, and it must be brought to a conclusion in one way, and in one way only; and that is by the complete ascendency of Great Britain. The honourable Senator has proceeded upon an entirely mistaken principle if he has assumed that it is necessary for the Government to go to Parliament for approval on every occasion when they take an executive action. That would not be responsible government. It would allow the practical work of the Executive to be carried on by both Houses of Parliament; which of course' is impossible. The Government, being charged with the carrying out of the executive work of Australia on behalf of the Australian people, took action in this matter originally in preparing to send the first contingent. They were either compelled to take that action on a telegram received from the authorities in Great Britain, or to allow criminal delay to occur in complying with it. But as soon as Parliament met the matter was brought before it, and certain motions were submitted. It was open to Parliament to disapprove of our action, but so far from doing so, resolutions were carried in both Houses—an in the case of the Senate unanimously—affirming the readiness of Australia to give all requisite aid to the mother country in order to bring this war to an end. That was a ratification of what the Government had done, and was an authority for the Government to do anything in the future in order to aid the mother country in bringing the war to a conclusion. I do not want it to be thought that I fail to recognise the sacrifice that Australia is making, or what it means to send out the flower of our young men to South Africa, nor did I forget all that their going out implies to them and those they leave behind. But Australia is prepared to make that sacrifice. If she intends to make her connexion with the Empire a reality, she must be prepared to make it, just as Great Britain would be prepared to-morrow to spend her last drop of blood, and her treasure for the purpose of preserving the integrity of the Empire here, if we were in a difficulty. I have nothing more to say. I feel that the honourable Senators statement has no foundation in fact, or in right policy. This is a question with which we cannot palter. Either we are for or against the Empire. There is only one course to be pursued in the interests of Australia, in the interests of the Empire, in the interests of this great people themselves, and that is to give every assistance to the mother country in order that the war may be brought to a speedy conclusion by the complete subjugation of the Boers. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. 11150 Questions 11150 11150 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING asked the Post-master-General, upon notice -If he will, without delay, in pursuance of the powers conferred on him by section 57 of the Post and Telegraph Act 1901, interdict time transmission through the Post-office of correspondence addressed to persons carrying on business as bookmakers, turf tipsters, or turf commission agents, and if not, why not? 11150 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE The answer to the honourable and learned Senator's question is as follows: The Postmaster-General is not aware, nor has he been officially advised, of the transmission through the Post-office of correspondence in contravention of the section referred to except in a few instances, and in those action have been taken. 11151 11151 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD in asking the Vice-President of the Executive Council upon notice - 1. Are a number of military encampments to be held throughout the Commonwealth at Easter? 2. What is the estimated cost of such encampments? 3. What sum is likely to be required to pay the Militia and P.P. Forces attending such encampments. 4. By what parliamentary vote has provision been made for such encampments? 5. What is the estimated daily cost of rationing each member of the Defence Force attending such encampment. I wish it to be understood that so far as paragraph D is concerned what I desire to know is the cost per cash individual? 11151 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR Notice of this question was given only yesterday, and it has been impossible to obtain the information desired by the honourable Senator. I shall, therefore, ask him to postpone it until next week. 11151 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD But there may be no sitting next week. I understand that Senator O'Connor declines to answer the question. 11151 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR No; what I say is that we have not had sufficient time to obtain the necessary information. 11151 11151 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE asked the Vice-President of the Executive Council, upon notice- 1. Is it a fact that three Chinese were, a few days ago, allowed to land from the ship Darius into the Commonwealth without being submitted to any education test? 2. If so, why were the provisions of the Immigration Restriction Act not enforced in this case? 11151 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR The answer to the Honourable Senator's questions are as follows: - 1. Yes. 2. These men were not submitted to the test. It was shown that they had booked their, passages to Australia prior to 7th August, on which date the provisions of the Immigration Restriction Bill were explained by the Prime Minister in the House of Representatives, and they actually left China before the 23rd December, on which date the Bill became law. Having altered their position without notice of any intended change in the law, the Prime Minister directed that they might be admitted without passing the test. 11151 Motion Resolved (On motion by Senator O’CONNOR)— That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would Prevent the Electoral Bill from passing through all its remaining stages at the same sitting of the Senate. In Conmmittee—(Consideration resumed from 20th March, 1902, vide page 11098). 11151 JXT New South Wales 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD I move— That the following new clause to be inserted – “The allowance payable to each Senator, and each member of the House of Representatives as provided in section 48 of the commonwealth of Australia constitution Act shall be reckoned from the day on which he is elected, chosen or appointed, or on which the seat was vacated by his predecessor whichever shall last happen.” 11151 JXT New South Wales 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NIELD Under the Constitution the parliamentary allowance commence from the date of swearing-in of the members elected. It may often happen, however, that a by-election will take place when Parliament is not sitting, and in such a case the member chosen might be compelled to wait for a considerable time before he could be sworn-in. It must also be remembered that the triennial elections of Senators have to take place in the latter part of the year preceding that in which the members returned may take office. Parliament is not likely, however, to meet until late in the year, and probably it would be impossible for the elected persons to be sworn-in for from five to seven months after their return. That being so, they would be deprived of what in some cases might be their chief means of livelihood. It is to overcome that difficulty, and to enable the payment of the Parliamentary allowances from the date that a member's work commences, that I propose this amendment. Honourable Senators will recognize that a member's duties are not confined to attendance in Parliament, but that almost from the moment of his election his work begins amongst his constituents and in the general community. What I would suggest, as being preferable to my proposal, is that the Vice-President of the Executive Council, should insert a clause in the Bill providing that upon being declared elected a member shall be sworn-in by the Governor-General, if Parliament is not then siting. That would be an immeasurably superior provision, and if I had thought of it at the time I should have drafted my amendment in that way. It seems to me that without such a provision members of Parliament might be elected and be members de facto, and yet be incapable of being sworn in and discharging their duties in a proper manner for many months after their return. Members of the Upper House in New South Wales are sworn in by the Governor. I am aware that there is a constitutional difficulty in relation to the question of whether it is competent for this Chamber to deal with such a matter as this. Therefore, I am going to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council—who I am sure will not think me guilty of any breach of confidence in saying that in private conversation with him I have ascertained that he regards my proposal as an equitable one—whether he would feel justified in giving an assurance to the committee that the Government will take charge of a proposition to this effect, and have it inserted in another place. If the Minister can give such an assurance I shall withdraw my amendment. 11152 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I have had an opportunity of considering the provision and of discussing it with my colleague. It is true, as Senator Neild has said, that it may involve some constitutional question. I am not pronouncing any opinion upon that point, but the amendment might lend to some difficulty. If the view should be taken that we have not the power to pass a clause of this kind, the whole Bill might be imperilled; it might be liable to be set aside on account of the appearance of such a clause in it. In order to avoid any difficulty, it appears to me that the provision itself, is a most equitable one. There is no reason why a member's allowance should not begin immediately he takes the seat which has been vacated. There is no double payment here? It will not begin until the seat has been vacated and the member steps into it, but from that time, whether Parliament is sitting or not, it is only fair that he should have remuneration. Under these circumstances the Government have decided to introduce in the other House a clause dealing with the question. Whether it will be exactly in the same form as the amendment or not I do not know. It may be necessary to provide separately for the House of Representatives and the Senate. I am indebted to Senator Neild for having brought the matter before the Senate. I feel certain that honourable Senators will consider that it is a provision which might fairly to be made. 11152 JXT New South Wales 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NIELD Under these circumstances, and with the courteous assurance which has been tendered by the Minister, I am sure I shall be meeting the desire of all by not proceeding with the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule. 11152 KSQ Western Australia 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON I desire to ask Senator O’Connor how he proposes to deal with form B in the absence of a Federal franchise? It is only applicable after we have passed a federal franchise. 11152 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I propose to deal with form B under clause 205, which provides that the forms in the first schedule may be varied as the circumstances of time case may require. 11152 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON Form I requires a candidate to state his occupation in his nomination paper, but there is no such provision in clause 101, which is copied slavishly from time Western Australian Act, and in the schedule to the Act, exactly as in the schedule to this Bill, there was a provision, which was purely optional, for the occupation to be given. I suggest to Senator O'Connor that he should bring form I into line with clause 101, by omitting the words "and occupation." I do not care whether the words are left in or not, but the clause and the form should be brought into line. 11152 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR There is no reason why a mean should not give his occupation. 11152 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON No, but when the nomination paper was handed in in Western Australia, the officer insisted that it should be given, and in one case the agent for the candidate took away the nomination paper and filled in an occupation which was not correct, and so ran some risk of invalidating the nomination. 11152 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR Very often the occupation is a means of identification. 11152 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON But should not the words also be inserted in clause 101 ? 11152 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I do not think it is necessary. I think that the clause and the form would be read together. In clause 101 we provide that the nomination shall "name the candidate and his place of residence," but we do not say that it shall give his christian name and surname. It seems to me that his occupation is a matter which may very well be left to the schedule. 11153 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON Would it invalidate the nomination if the occupation were left out ? 11153 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR It would, because he is required to draw up his nomination according to the form in the schedule. Schedule amended by the insertion of now forms L I and M I, and agreed to. Motion (by Senator DRAKE) proposed— That the chairman report the Bill to the House with amendments. Amendment (by Senator O'CONNOR) agreed to— That the clauses 3, 41, 47, 60, 65, 96, 101, 110, 130, 135, 154, 175, 175A, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 199, and the schedule be reconsidered. Clause 3 verbally amended and agreed to. Clause 41— The special court of revision may sit at any convenient place within the division, and it shall not be necessary for the same magistrate or justice of the peace to be present at every sitting of the court. 11153 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I Move— That the following words be added to the clause: — “The special court of revision may sit between the hours of 7 p.m. and 12 midnight. The hours at which the court may sit are not mentioned in the Bill, and it is just as well to insert a provision of this kind. Men who are engaged at work all day cannot attend revision courts until the evening. As election times approach there is always a perfect rush of work to be done by electoral officers, and they will naturally desire to do it within office hours. Unless Ave make provision for the courts to sit at unusual hours it will not be done. 11153 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR There is really no necessity to make the amendment suggested, but at the same time I can quite appreciate Senator De Largie’s motive. He wishes to make it plain that the court has power to sit in the evening. We cannot do more, however, than make an indication that the court may so sit. I suggest that we should add after the word "sit" in the first line the words "at any time between seven a.m. and midnight." 11153 L2I New South Wales 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH The proposal of the Vice-President of the Executive Council is an improvement, because it indicates that the court may sit at unusual hours, but it does not go far enough. I suggest that we might provide that if 50 or 100 electors petition the court to sit between seven and ten in the evening, it shall sit at those hours. On the gold-fields, where the men are engaged upon their shifts during the daytime, a great injustice would be done unless the court were to sit in the evening. 11153 K1O Victoria 0 0 BARRETT, John George Senator BARRETT I trust that Senator De Largie's amendment will be agreed to. The modification suggested by Senator O'Connor leaves the option with the court. In Victoria, the practice is generally for the revision courts to sit in the day-time. When the privilege has been granted of cases being heard at night, I have seen 300 or 400 men waiting to have their cases tried; but I have also seen 500 men struck off the roll in less than five minutes in the day-time, because there was no appearance on their behalf. It is a, crying evil that men should be disfranchised in that wholesale fashion. 11153 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR Senator De Largie's amendment is practically the same as my suggestion in regard to its being permissive. I presume, however, that he has made a mistake in moving that the court should sit between seven p.m. and midnight. He surely means seven am. The court should be able to sit at any time during the day or in the evening, to suit the convenience of the people in the district. No doubt instructions will be issued to the officers to sit at such hours as may be necessary; and if an electoral court so far forgot its duty as to do an injustice to anybody, a complaint would be made, and I should hope that an officer would not be allowed to continue in his position if he disregarded the convenience of the public in that way. But there is no half-way between making it permissive or compulsory. It would be absurd to make it compulsory—all parties would be served by making it permissive. 11153 KSQ Western Australia 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON There is a good deal of sound reasoning in what Senator O'Connor says, but the difficulty Senator De Largie has called attention to is not got over. I know that his statement is absolutely correct. In Western Australia I and a number of my friends took enormous trouble to put people on the roll, but after we had done so, every man whom Ave put on received a notice saying that his name was objected to. What was the result? The revision court sat between ten and four in the day-time, and the names of men whom we had pat on at night were struck off. We took so much trouble about putting them on that we had magistrates sitting at tables in the road, at night, taking names. It was worth the trouble, because I have no doubt that Western Australia would not have entered the federation if we had not done so. The men were struck off by the revision court at a time when they could not attend to protest. It is generally the names of working men who are objected to. They are engaged in manual occupations all day, and there is no appearance on behalf of them when their names are called on. This grievance is not imaginary, because I have had such a notice served upon me. I was required to attend at the revision court at ten a.m. I went to the court and found that there were a host of names in advance of mine, so that I had to pay a man to sit in court all day and watch for my name being called on. He told me—and that is how I know—that hundreds of names of persons were struck off on behalf of whom there was no appearance. Senator O'Connor's objection to Senator Dc Largie's amendment is reasonable, but there is no provision in the Bill which would entitle a man who could not appear during the day to attend at a night sitting of the court. 11154 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Those who have criticised Senator O'Connor's proposal have apparently overlooked the fact that there is a large section of workers engaged in dairy farming and other rural pursuits, who could not attend at night. The court should sit in different localities at different times. A common-sense official would fix the hours of sitting at times most suitable to the great body of electors in the district. But it is absurd to suppose that the court will be able to sit all day and all evening as well. 11154 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I intended to withdraw my amendment before, but as several honourable Senators were anxious to speak to the question, I did not wish to deprive them of the opportunity of doing so. I agree with Senator O'Connor's proposition, which is much more comprehensive than my own. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (by Senator O'CONNOR) agreed to— That the words “at any time between the hours of 7 a.m. and 12 midnight" be inserted after the word "sit." Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 47 amended by the insertion of the following new paragraph, to follow paragraph (a)— (b) Not to be qualified to have their names placed on a roll. Clause 60 (Right to transfer). 11154 JYD New South Wales 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I Move—That the following words be added to the clause- Until a uniform federal franchise is provided for the right to transfer shall only extend to transfer. Shall only extend to transfers from one division to another in the same State. It is obviously necessary that such an addition should be made. 11154 KSQ Western Australia 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON It is rather amusing to find the honourable and learned Senator saying now that these words are "absolutely necessary." 11154 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR Why not drop these personal matters ? 11154 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON No doubt the honourable and learned Senator does not wish to have attention drawn to the fact that, when I endeavoured at an earlier stage to insert what was practically the same amendment in this clause, I was told that I was quite wrong. I congratulate him upon having been obliged to adopt my suggestion. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to Clause 65 amended by the omision of sub-clause IV., and agreed to. Clause 96 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 101 (Proceedings on nomination day)— Paragraph (a) (on motion by Senator MATHESON) amended to read as follows :— "(a) Name the candidate, his place of residence and occupation, and" Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 110 consequentially amended and agreed to. Clause 130 (Ballot Papers)— Amendment (by Senator O'CONNOR) agreed to— That the following be added as a new subclause to follow sub-clause 2-" Where similarity in the names of two or more candidates is likely to cause confusion, the Commonwealth Electoral Officer for the State or the Divisional Returning Officer conducting the election may arrange the names with such description or addition as will distinguish them from one another." Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 135- Electors not hawing voters' certificates, and not voting by post, may vote at the polling place for which they are enrolled. 11155 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I Move— That the word "the," line 2, be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word "any." If this amendment is carried I shall move to omit the words "for which they are enrolled." We have had so many debates on this question that I do not propose to address myself to it at any length, although I desire to test the feeling of the committee upon it. As has been pointed out repeatedly by honourable Senators from Queensland and Western Australia, the provisions in regard to voters’ certificates and voting by post will be totally inadequate to hurt the conditions of those States. Voting by post can be availed of up to the day of polling, but where mails have to be carried by coaches it sometimes takes a month for a letter to travel from one part of the State to another. In the ordinary course of events a letter containing a request for permission to vote by post has first to go to the returning officer, and then to the voter, and he has to send it to his polling place. Three journeys have to be made. It is a very good provision for persons in closely settled places, or for persons who are going to travel by sea, or who are sick, but it does not meet the case of those who live at a great distance from their polling booth. Voters' certificates are suitable for only one class, and that is those persons who take a keen interest in politics, and thoroughly understand the provisions of the electoral law. A voter's certificate can only be taken out between the issue of the writ and the third day before the polling. That limits the time considerably. In Western Australia the gold fields extend from the north to the south, and the population is migrating continually. The electoral divisions extend for the whole length of the 'State, and letters which have to be sent by coach take months to reach their destination. It has been pointed out by Senator Keating that the Tasmanian system is safeguarded in such a way as to do away with any danger of personation. Under this Bill, if I like to take the risk, there is nothing to prevent me from personating an elector. I hope that the committee will make this amendment, in the interest of a large class who will avail themselves of this provision and if they do they can omit the provision for the issue of a voters' certificate, because it will not be necessary then. It is a complicated system which would not be availed of to any extent. 11155 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I must oppose the amendment for the reasons I gave before. I do not think Senator Pearce has adduced any new reason. We have a system which divides the electors on the roll according to polling places, and, as a general rule, compels electors to vote at those polling places. It is only in that way that we can secure that identification of voters which is absolutely necessary to prevent fraud and imposition. But many concessions are made, and amongst them is the concession that an elector may vote by post if he resides five miles from the polling place, or intends to be five miles from the polling place on polling day. The provision is of so general application that it is almost impossible that any man of the class Senator Pearce spoke of, would not be able to avail himself of it. Another provision will enable a man—I think, in most cases, in the large States a month before, if there is any probability of his being away from his own polling place —to get a voter's certificate which will permit him to vote anywhere. Under these circumstances, I think everything has been done which should be done to facilitate voting, short of giving up all the checks which are requisite to insure an honest election. Although we may go as far as we possibly can in that direction, still, we cannot hope to reach everybody in all circumstances. I think we have reached the greatest number of people who can be reached without giving up the necessary safeguards of any electoral system. 11155 KSQ Western Australia 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON There are fresh arguments to be adduced, and they are those arising out of Senator Keating's speech the other day on another clause. The chief objection to this amendment appears to be the facility that would be afforded to personate. Under the system in vogue in Tasmania a person can vote at any polling booth, and if he does not happen to be on the roll of that polling booth, his vote is sent by post to the polling booth of the place where he resides. The fact that lie has not previously voted is checked off before his vote is recorded, so that there is no possibility of personation such as we were led to suppose, the other day, would be of frequent occurrence. Seeing that it is a perfectly feasible practice, and seeing that the only objection raised to it has been swept away, I intend to reverse the vote I previously gave, and to support the amendment, more especially because the extra reasonable facilities which I advocated in connexion with voters' certificates have not been granted. The committee has thought fit to restrict the issue of the voter's certificate in such a way that for all practical purposes it is a useless document, and the provisions of the Bill are absolutely worthless to the very people to whom the Government wish to appear most benevolent. 11156 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING So far as the Senate elections are concerned they are not worth the paper they are printed on. 11156 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Perceval Senator MATHESON Whether a man is voting for the Senate, or whether he is voting for the House of Representatives in a large division, my augment is equally applicable. 11156 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE I am very sorry that Senator O'Connor cannot see his way to accept this amendment, especially in view of the fact that Senator Matheson's amendment was rejected yesterday. Even if that amendment had been carried, I should still have asked for this alteration to he made. The chief objection to the amendment is the danger of personation. We should get out of our mind the dishonest voter, and think of the honest voter. We are here to make the law as liberal as possible for the electors, and what is the use of enacting a liberal law if we do not provide reasonable facilities for electors to record their votes? We are providing voting facilities in some directions, but from many electors in some States we are taking away voting facilities which they have had. In a small community where there are not more than 3,000 electors, I have seen hundreds disfranchised on polling day. In many a case I have seen an elector, whose name was on the roll for one portion of an electorate, hurriedly called away by the exigencies of his occupation to another place, perhaps only ten miles distant, two or three days before polling day, and through no fault of his own, prevented from recording his vote. What is the use of the sympathy of honourable Senators unless it is given to us in a practical form? Surely we should be prepared to believe that the large body of electors in Australia are honest. The provision for voters' certificates will not meet the convenience or the wish of electors in distant parts of Australia, so well and so readily as will this amendment. We cannot legislate for a more deserving class of electors than the men in our back blocks—the miners, the prospectors, the timber cutters, the shearers, and the rouse abouts. If we can possibly place extra voting facilities within the reach of the very backbone of the industrial life of Australia, it is our duty to do so. 11156 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE It is owing to want of knowledge of the conditions which prevail in the back country in the larger States of the Commonwealth that Senator O’Connor is opposing this amendment. If he had been brought into contact with the state of affairs in the back country of Western Australia and Queensland he would not for a moment oppose it. We must remember the enormous extent of those States. New places are being discovered very suddenly. From time to time a large population rushes off to a place at which there is no opportunity to get a postal ballot-paper or a voter's certificate. In Western Australia, with its enormous area of auriferous country, new finds are being constantly discovered. New rushes are going on from one year's end to the other. Many of them, unfortunately, are of only a few months' duration, but they are sufficiently, long to attract a large number of persons from the places where they are enrolled. An enormous number of persons who have been the pioneers of our back country will suffer by the provision in the Bill. At the Federal elections 25 per cent. of the electors of Western Australia would have been disfranchised if they had been compelled to vote as they are required to do under this Bill. Honourable Senators who come from States in which the population is close, and every voting facility is given to electors, know nothing of the conditions that prevail elsewhere. Otherwise they would not offer any opposition to the proposals of those who know what is required in other States. I am prepared to punish a personator as severely as any opponent of this amendment is inclined to do, but I contend that every possible facility to exercise the franchise should be given. I hope that honourable Senators will see the advisableness of accepting the opinion of those who know what provision is required for the convenience of the electors in the larger States. I know that the Bill is liberal on the whole, but many of its best provisions will be destroyed if we do not make the amendment proposed by Senator Pearce. 11157 L2I New South Wales 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH I am sure the Vice-President of the Executive Council is as anxious as any of us that every facility, consistent with safety, should be given to electors to record their votes. Therefore, I cannot understand why he should be opposed to Senator Pearce's amendment, which would simplify the voting system. At present we have provided for direct voting, voting by post, and voters' certificates. If Senator Pearce’s proposal were adopted we should have the direct vote, and voting by post. The system he proposes has already been adopted in various States, and not a single protest has been made against it. As Senator Keating mentioned the other clay, the system provided in Tasmania is one by which fraud can be eliminated as effectively as in direct voting. Indeed, the very same system can be adopted as in the case of postal voting. If a person living in Melbourne happens to be at Bendigo, Ballarat, or Swan Bill on the day of the election he would, under Senator Pearce's proposal, be able to record his rote, which would be put in a Melbourne envelope and posted down to Melbourne. If it were found on an examination of the roll that the person in question had not voted in Melbourne the vote thus posted would be recorded. The secrecy of the ballot would be maintained, and the probability of fraud reduced to a minimum. If there were a danger of personation under the system, I should be the first to vote against it. There would be, however, less danger of fraud than if the man voted direct, because his signature would be the most effective evidence against him. Another objection raised is that unnecessary delay would occur in counting the votes. We cannot get an official declaration of the poll until all the ballot-boxes are received at a certain place. While those boxes are being sent down the votes recorded under Senator Pearce's proposal could be forwarded to the places at which the names of. the electors were registered. I have not yet heard any clear explanation of why Senator O'Connor objects to the system. 11157 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR The difficulties about identification. The electors on the roll live round about the polling place; but if a man votes at a polling place hundreds of miles away how are we to identify him? 11157 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH In the first place it is impossible for two persons to vote by virtue of one name on the roll, because if a man has voted on the day of election, and another vote comes down by post in the name of that man, it cannot be recorded. In the second place there will be scrutineers, who probably will know the voter, or recognise his signature. Exactly the same objection could be raised against the certificate system. I, therefore, hope that Senator O'Connor will reconsider the matter, or devise some other system by winch every man may go to the nearest polling booth and record his vote it he is too far away from the place where his name is registered. 11157 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART Some time ago when we were discussing another phase of this Bill, Senator O'Connor twitted certain honourable Senators with being extremely conservative in their ideas. He reminded them of the opponents to the Reform Bill, who would not move until they were shifted. With reference to this particular clause, the honourable and learned Senator himself has become allied with such conservatism. The object of our electoral law is to give every voter an opportunity to vote. Of course no law can be carried out without a certain limitation, but the elector's right to vote ought not to be circumscribed in a way that would hinder him from recording it. The Bill proposes to chain down the elector to his own particular polling place. in this respect it is ten-fold more conservative than any State law. In most of the Queensland electorates we have ten or twenty polling places, but the elector can vote at any one of them so long as be votes within his electorate. But the Bill of the Government says that a man shall not vote away from his own polling place unless he arranges to vote by post, or gets a voter's certificate. Those conveniences, so far as concerns a large number of electors in the out-lying portions of Australia, are delusive in the last degree. In the first place, a man has to write to the returning officer for a particular form, or has to fill up an application in the prescribed form himself. Does anyone imagine that the ordinary elector is going to carry a copy of the Act about with him or to have a copy of the form in his possession? If he fills up the form, by the time it reaches the returning officer the elector may be a hundred miles away. Then the voter has to look for the electoral officer. Electoral officers are rarely found anywhere except in the centres of population. If neither are available, the elector has to go for a justice of the peace. Even justices of the peace are not common enough in the sparsely populated districts to make it by any means an easy matter for a man to find one. Then, the justice of the peace may refuse to attest his signature. He may say—"I do not know that you are John Jones, and I refuse to attest your signature." Then the elector has to fall back on the postmaster. Postmasters are very rare in the less densely populated parts of Australia. So that even in regard to voting by post and getting voters' certificates there are serious difficulties. The danger of personation might be much reduced if, in the elector's claim, the age of the claimant had to be inserted. I suppose that has not been done in this Bill, because provision has to be made for female franchise, and man's native delicacy does not permit him to inquire to closely into the age of the opposite sex. But the giving of the age of male voters would be a convenient method of finding out whether a man was personating. Take the case of a man who had removed from Brisbane, and had gone into the interior. We will say that his name is John Jones. He goes to the returning officer at Charlesville and says—" My name is John Jones, and it appears on the Brisbane North roll. I should like to vote.' The returning officer would then ask him his ago, occupation, and residence, and test his statements by reference to the roll. If all the answer-, given by the man agreed with the particulars in the roll, the presumption would be that he was the man entitled to vote. Of course, it may be said that any person attempting to personate an elector would arm himself with all the facts relating to that man ; but electoral rolls, while readily available, are not so common to some persons as might be believed, especially in the back country. Therefore I think that aspect of the case need not be considered very seriously; while the safeguards described by Senator Keating would reduce the chance of personation to an absolute minimum. If the clause is passed as it stands thousands of men will be disfranchised at the coming elections in Queensland, and the Senate, instead of being blessed by those electors as the friend of liberty, will be cursed as the enemy of progress. Our duty is to make it as easy as possible for every man and woman entitled to a vote to record that vote, and no artificial barriers should be placed in the way. This provision seems to have been framed for a stationary population. It would not meet the circumstances of Great Britain, much Less of a counter like Australia, where people are compelled by their avocations to keep going from place to place. It will be absolutely impossible for voters to arm themselves with these authorities, except in the centres of population, and there they will not be required. The very people who ought to be provided for will be shut out if this provision is passed, although I do not say that that the intention of the Government. I would ask Senator O'Connor to reconsider the whole position, and see if he cannot make some arrangement which will meet the interests of those people for whom we speak. We should have some feeling for the people who have to be battling continually with nature, who have to move from place to place in order to obtain a livelihood, and who have no opportunity of seeing that their names are kept continuously on the rolls. 11158 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING During a previous debate on another clause, I referred to a system which prevailed in Tasmania enabling a voter, no matter in what part of a State he might be, to record his vote as fully and as effectively as if he were present at the polling booth for which he as listed. I pointed out the precautions which were taken to prevent the possibility of personation which Senator O'Connor, in opposing this amendment, seems to dread so much. But I might have gone further. My remarks were properly directed to the amendment then suggested, inasmuch as we were discussing at the time the advisableness of allowing a voter, in the case of the Senate elections, to vote in any part of a State when he had taken out his voters certificate. I may now point out that the very object at which Senator Pearce aims has been achieved in Tasmania. In the case of the single electorates in that State we were confronted with the possibility of an elector being away from his particular polling booth on polling day, and thus being deprived of his right to exercise his vote. We had no voters' certificates, and to remedy the difficulty, about three years ago the Tasmanian Parliament when amending one of the Electoral Acts provided that an elector for any single district should be able to vote at any polling place in that district, whether he was registered to vote there or not. It was said then that personation would become rife. Asa matter of fact, however, the principle was first applied in the last State elections; the Tasmanian Parliament have since consolidated their electoral laws, and they have again adopted that provision. The section, which is a very simple one, and Overcomes to a great extent all the difficulties to which Senator O'Connor has referred, is as follows :— Each elector shall vote at the polling place allotted to him on the electoral roll: provided that any elector may vote at any polling place for the same district other than the one allotted to him upon making the oath or declaration prescribed schedule 17 of this Act. When an elector goes to a polling booth in respect of which he is not registered, he points out to the local presiding officer that his name is on the roll, and if it is found to be correct he is able to vote there he is handed a printed form which he signs, and then makes an affirmation or takes an oath as follows: - I, A. B., do swear that I am the same person whose name appears as (here specify imine) in the electoral roll now in force for the electoral district of (here specify electoral district), and that I have not before voted, either here or elsewhere, at the present election. So, help me God. That system has worked exceedingly well in Tasmania, and more particularly in our mining districts. There is one mining district just this side of Launceston where, for many years past, there has been a constant alteration of the centre of gravity of population, the people removing from one side of the River Tamar to the other, according to the ups and downs of mining there. In connexion with an election there, many who were listed to poll at Lefroy were at Beaconsfield, and were able to vote there, although their names had never been transferred. 11159 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I admit all that, but I think the provision for voters' certificates will cure the difficulty. 11159 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING I do not think so, because it cannot apply in the case of a man unless he previously knows that he is going to be absent from his polling place on election day. The system adopted in Tasmania aims at giving every elector, wherever he may be on the polling day—provided that he is within his own electorate—the same rights as if he were able to attend his own booth, while under it the possibilities of personation are reduced to a minimum. If these privileges, which have been granted to the electors of Tasmania, and which have been availed of to a considerable extent both at State and Federal elections are taken away from them, they will recognise that a considerable amount of injustice has been done to them. They will recognise that they will not be able to give that, full and free expression to political opinions on polling day that. That they consider they are entitled to give in the past. I spoke yesterday of the provision which had been made in Tasmania for an elector who was out of his electorate, to have his vote posted in an envelope to the returning officer for the district in which he was an elector. Although out of a little over 18,000 votes, there were something like 1,000 recorded in that way at the Federal elections in Tasmania, a much larger percentage of the votes cast in the single electoral districts were given at polling places other than those in respect of which the electors were listed to vote. On the West Coast, where the population is migratory, numbers of electors voted at polling places other than those for which they had been listed, and if they had not been allowed to do so, they would have lost their votes. No provision is made in the Bill for an individual who happens to be absent from his own particular polling place on polling day, not having previously known that he was going to be absent. 11159 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS Nearly as much allowance for getting voters' certificates as we have for registering a claim for a vote. 11159 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING The question of registering a claim for a vote and the question of voting are totally dissimilar. If we had the most conservative provisions a man to get his name on the roll, that would be no justification for confining ourselves to conservative conditions with regard to facilitating the exercise of the franchise. I shall be very much surprised if Senator O'Connor persists in his opposition to a reasonable provision, which has been tried in Tasmania, and indorsed by the electors of the State as well as the Parliament in its revision of the electoral law. I ask Senator O'Connor to look to the concrete instances where the system has been applied, and to show us that it has led to personation. I think I am safe in saying that there has not been a single accusation of personation against any individual in Tasmania. We have had three applications of the system to the whole State, and we have had four elections held under the system. In Queensland and Western Australia, without the safeguards that prevail in Tasmania, has there been any accusation of personation? In Tasmania we have sufficiently safeguarded the provisions for absent voters to prevent, for all practical purposes, any possibility of personation. I should be exceedingly sorry to see Senator O'Connor, in endeavouring to unify our electoral system, de-liberalize, the laws which prevail in three States and bring us back to what he calls privileges and facilities, but which can only be described as antediluvian. These are delusive privileges which are being held out, comprising the cumbrous system of voters' certificates, and the necessity for a man to go to a particular officer so many days before the election, and after the issue of the writ to take out a certificate, carry it about with him, and then post it, instead of saying to him—' You can go to the polling booth on polling day and all these privileges will be accorded to you, but you will have to swear as to your identity with the person you claim to be, and to sign the declaration so that we may have evidence that you have not previously recorded your vote in the district at this election and your own evidence against you if you personate." 11160 KTF South Australia 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR There are two things for which we should specially provide, namely, voting at a properly authorized polling place and, when that is not possible, voting by post. We have provided a very good system of voting by post, but from want of knowledge previous to the election a great many persons might be unable to avail themselves of the privilege. We should therefore do all we can to amend the clause so as to give them the right to vote at a polling place. A number of honourable Senators have acknowledged the righteousness of this proposal, that it is preferable to even the system of voters' certificates, and their only objection is that it will delay the declaration of the poll. Senator O'Connor objects to the amendment because it is not possible all at once to make the provisions which, in his opinion, would be necessary if it were accepted. Senator Keating has forgotten that most of the machinery he referred to in Tasmania is provided by regulation. 11160 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING That which I referred to last is provided in the statute. 11160 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR If we make it possible for each elector to vote at a polling place other than that at which he is registered, it will be quite simple by regulation to supply the very machinery that Senator Keating referred to. It has been contended by Senator O'Connor and others that if we were to adopt that machinery and an elector’s vote had to be posted to the place where he was registered to vote, it would delay the scrutiny. It would not delay the scrutiny more that 24 hours longer than it will he delayed by existing provisions in the Bill. A man is allowed to vote by post up to the day before the poll is taken, and his postal ballot-paper has to be transmitted by post to the place where he is registered to vote. Consequently letters that are sent next day to that place from any polling place in the electoral district will arrive within 24 hours of those containing postal ballot-papers. The objection that it will delay the final count of the votes has no foundation. It cannot make a delay of more than 24 hours, and it is our duty to give every elector the privilege of voting wherever he may be on polling day. I do - not attach any importance to the objection with regard to personation. It has only been practised at the crowded polling booths, where thousands of men have been recording their votes on the same day. At such a place a man who is inclined to commit a fraud can easily lose his identity. A polling place in the back country, where only 20, 30, or 40 - votes are recorded, is not a place frequented by a man who wishes to play hanky-panky tricks. It will not be necessary, if we make this amendment, to omit the provision for the issue of voters' certificates. A man who has the time can get a voter's certificate, and he will have no declaration to make at the polling place, but a man who has not had an opportunity to get a voter's certificate can go to the polling booth, make a declaration, and record his vote. By, that means all the electors in the Commonwealth will be able to exercise what is a right, and no injustice will be done to anybody. A great injustice will - be done to the electors in three States if this provision is not made. Question—That the word "the," proposed to be omitted, stand part of the clause—put. The committee divided. 15 Clemons, J.S. Dobson, Hon. H. Drake, Hon. J. G Ewing, N.K. Fraser, Hon. S. Neild, Lieut-Col, J.C. Sargood, Lieut-Col. Sir F. T, K.C.M.G Macfarlane, J. Gould, Lieut-Col. Hon. A. J. O'Connor, Hon. R.E. Playford, Hon. T. Best, Hon. R.W. Millen, E.D. (Teller) Symon, Sir J, H. Zeal, Sir W, A. 14 Barrett, J.G Dawson, A. De Largie, H. Glassey, T. Higgs, W.G. Matheson, A.P. McGregor, G. O'Keefe, D.J. Pearce, G.F. Keating, J.H. (Teller) Baker, Sir R, C. Smith, Hon. M.S.C Stewart, J.C. Styles, J. Majority . . . . 1 In division: AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clause 154 Senator Stewart moved an amendment, viz., to leave out paragraph (a). A ballot-paper shall be informal if—(a) It is not duly initialled by the presiding officer; 11161 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I Move— That paragraph a be omitted. Why should an elector be disfranchised because of an oversight on the part of a returning-officer? If my name is on a roll am I to be disqualified to vote through the inadvertence of the returning-officer, who neglects to put his initials on the back of the paper? Why should I be punished for the mistake of an official? There must be some method of identifying a ballot paper, but if it can clearly be proved that a ballot paper was issued by the clerk, even if his initials are not on the back, the elector's vote should not be rejected as informal. Question—That paragraph a proposed to be omitted stand part of the clause—put. The committee divided— 22 Barrett, J. G Best, Hon. R. W. Charleston, D. M. Dobson, Hon . H. Drake, Hon. J. G. Ewing, N. K. Fraser, Hon. S. Keating, J. H. Lieut ,- Col. Neild, J. C. Lieut ,- Col. Sargood, Sir. F. T. K.C.M.G Macfarlane, J. Lieut.-Col. Gould, Hon. A. J. Millen, E. D. O'Connor, Hon. R. E. O'Keefe, D.J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, Hon. T. Clemons, J. S. (Teller) Baker, Sir. R. C. Symon, Sir. J. H. Smith, M. S. C. Styles, J. 6 De Largie, H. Glassey, T. Higgs, W. G. McGregor, G. Dawson, A. Stewart, J. C. (Teller) Majority ... ... 16 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived Clause agreed to Clause 175A.-(Premises that may be used as a committee room). Clause 154 amended and agreed to. Clause 175 reconsidered and agreed to. Clause 175a reconsidered and amended. Senator Pearce moved a further amendment, viz., to leave out, in line 7, “ as a committee room.’ Amendment(by Senator Pearce) agreed to- That after the word "no" the words "part of any" be inserted. 11161 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I Move— That the words "as a committee room" be omitted. As the clause stands it reads that no licensed premises shall be used as a committee room in connexion with elections. But it has been pointed out that under the clause a political meeting might be held upon licensed premises. I object to that. 11161 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR If the amendment is agreed to, a candidate would not be able to address a meeting from an hotel balcony, which is often the only place from which a meeting can be addressed. What we want to prevent is the permanent occupation of a room in an hotel as a committee room. 11161 KHE Queensland 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS If Senator O'Connor had conducted an election in Queensland or in Western Australia he would have found that it was not a disadvantage to a candidate that he could not hold a political meeting at an hotel. In Queensland political meetings at election times are not permitted to be held at public houses. If a candidate cannot get a schoolroom or a. hail, he has to take a box and stand up at a street corner or speak from the balcony of a private house. Yet there is not the slightest difficulty in addressing meetings there. On the other hand, it can be shown that there would be considerable harm attaching to election meetings being held in hotels or being addressed from hotel balconies. Question—That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the clause–put. The Committee divided-- 14 Charleston, D. M Clemons, J. S. Dobson, Hon. H. Drake, Hon. J. G. Ewing, N. K. Fraser, Hon. S. Lieut ,- Col. Neild, J. C. Macfarlane, J. Lieut ,- Col. Gould, Hon, A. J. O'Connor, Hon. R. E. Playford, Hon. T. Millen, E. D. Baker, Sir. R, C. Symon, Sir J, H. 14 Best, Hon. R. W. Dawson, A. De Largie, H. Glassey T. Higgs, W. G. Keating, J. H. Lieut ,- Col.Sargood Sir F. T. McGregor, G. Pearce, G. F. Barrett, J. G. O'Keefe, D. J. (Teller) Smith, M. S. C. Stewart, J. C. Styles, J. AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative The number of the Ayes and Noes being equal, and so it passed in the negative. Clause 175a further amended and agreed to. Clauses 190-191 and clause 199 reconsidered and left out. Clause 154 reconsidered, amended, and agreed to. Amendment agreed to Clause consequentially amended and agreed to. Clauses 190, 101, 19, 191, 194, and 199 omitted. Motion (by Senator DRAKE) proposed— That the Bill be reported, with amendments. Amendment (by Senator O'CONNOR)agreed to. That clause 154, and the schedule, be reconsidered. Clause 154 consequentially amended and agreed to. The Schedule- 11162 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART In form "K" it is provided that an application for a postal vote certificate shall be signed in the presence of a returning officer, electoral registrar, justice of the peace, or a postmaster. I move- That the following words be added—"or an elector." I would ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council to consider the trouble a voter may have in finding any of the officers named in the form, although it would be a very easy matter for him to obtain an elector as a witness. An ordinary citizen can witness almost any legal document, and yet an application for a voter's certificate must be witnessed by certain officials. 11162 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I am willing to add the words State school teacher alter the words " justice of the peace." That should get over any difficulty. 11162 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I am agreeable to amend my amendment in that way. Amendment, by leave, amended accordingly and agreed to. Schedule further consequentially amended, and agreed to. Bill reported with amendments. Motion (by Senator O'CONNOR) proposed— That the report be adopted 11162 JVC Tasmania 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON With reference to clause 135— 11162 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT Does the honourable and learned senator object to the adoption of the report? 11162 JVC 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON With regard to one clause I do; but if I get a certain assurance from Senator O'Connor I shall vote for its adoption. Although some of us are in favour of granting every facility to the voter to record his vote, and although we were in favour of the amendment moved by Senator Pearce, and lost by one vote, we did not feel justified in voting for it, because there was no machinery to see that it was properly carried out. On the previous day I spoke strongly in favour of the admirable work which Senator Keating had done in explaining the Tasmanian practice to the committee. 11162 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT The honourable and learned senator should not refer to discussions in committee. He can only show cause why the report should not be adopted. 11162 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON If I could see clause 135 so moulded as to introduce the facilities which my honourable friends in the labour corner rightly want, and which I think we all want, side by side with the safeguards of the Tasmanian practice, which has been carried out without any danger, I should have no objection to the Bill. I wish to ask Senator O'Connor, whether, without committing the Cabinet, he can not give a promise that the draftsman shall re-shape clause 135, adopting such of the Tasmanian or other safeguards as he thinks fit. I think he will see that the representatives of some of the States, in voting against the amendment, have gone back on their own legislation. We have had to accept a less liberal law than we have been accustomed to. If little Tasmania has been able to show the way in progressive but safe legislation, surrounded by proper safeguards, why should we not follow its example? I hope that Senator O'Connor will be able to give an assurance that the clause will be redrafted, so that honourable members, both here and elsewhere, can see whether they cannot safely give the voting facilities which some of us think to be necessary. 11163 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD Will the Minister kindly give me an assurance that he will apply the conditions of the law existing in New South Wales. 11163 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR The statement about the practice in Tasmania was made at rather a late period of the discussion, and as I said at the time, I was rather impressed with it from some points of view. I do not say that it is impracticable, and I had intended, and it is still my intention, to discuss with my colleagues the question whether anything can be done to meet the views of honourable senators who ask for this extension. I do not promise in any way that it shall be done, or even that I shall come round to the opinion that it ought to be done, but I shall bring it before their notice. Question resolved in the affirmative. Report adopted. Bill read a third time. 11163 Bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Motion (by Senator O'CONNOR) agreed to. That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would prevent the Supply Bill from passing through all its stages at the same sitting of the Senate. Bill read a first time. 11163 JYD New South Wales 0 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I move- That this Bill be now read a second time. This is a Bill for the appropriation of £262,415, to cover the services for the following month. The amount on this occasion is smaller than it was on the last occasion. The Bill contains no unusual items. Under the head of " Military " there is an item of £3,300, which is a portion of the amount for the Easter encampment which will be held. I am authorized by the Minister for Defence to say that he has had under consideration the cessation of recruiting, that he will complete his consideration of the subject at a very early period, probably some time next, week, and that lie is disposed to allow recruiting to go on up to the present strength. He finds that, on the whole, it is better that that should be done. There is nothing, I think, in the other items which call for comment although I shall be glad to answer any questions which may be asked. As it is intended to adjourn the Senate over Easter, it is necessary to pass the Bill to-day in order that the public creditors and the public officers may be paid. 11163 JXT 0 0 NEILD,John Cash Senator Lt.-Col. NEILD I thank the Vice-President of the Executive Council for the statement he has made in reference to the recruiting to fill vacancies in the citizens branch of the military forces, in respect of which I asked some questions the other day. With a view to assist the Minister, I desire very briefly to state what the facts are. We know, of course, that time permanent forces are being recruited. The other recruiting which has been referred to means not the taking on of one extra man throughout any portion of the Commonwealth, but merely filling existing vacancies, which are sufficiently numerous, owing to the cessation of recruiting for about six months, to materially interfere with the efficiency of the defence forces in the different States. I am not referring to one State more than another. This matter is affecting the discipline, and certainly the morale, of the forces to a very large extent. Alen have felt that they were surrounded by difficulties and impending difficulties, which causes them to lose heart in the discharge of the either unpaid or very little paid duties, as the case may be, in the volunteer and militia forces. The statement of the Minister that this unsatisfactory state of things is likely to be ended will be a matter or very great gladness to all who take an interest in the citizen forces. The fact that the forces are to be asked to go into camp to improve their training will be a cause of satisfaction, I admit, to every taxpayer, because it is of no use to have an undisciplined mob, and call it a defence force. The statement of the Minister is satisfactory, and I hope that the Ministerial consideration will be given promptly. If there is any further delay in the filling of vacancies, the recruits taken on cannot be trained and passed into the ranks before the dote of the financial year ending 30th June. If they are not passed into the ranks, there is riot a regiment in the Commonwealth that will be able to draw its full capitation allowance, by virtue of which the men are clothed. The recruits cannot be properly trained in less than three months, and if they are not passed into the ranks as efficient members of the force by that date, the regiments will lose their capitation allowance under the existing regulations in respect of every absent man. Then, if you take the recruits on at the beginning of next year you will be short of so much money to clothe them, and the force will be materially damaged for the whole twelve months. That is why I would impress on Senator O'Connor that there should be no time lost in the Ministerial consideration and the revoking of the ukase that went out last year as to the filling of vacancies. I could give abundance of instances in addition to reasons why this is desirable, but in the circumstances I trust that the Ministerial assurance will have prompt effect given to it. 11164 KHE Queensland 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The act of the Ministers and their supporters in the Senate has deprived honourable senators of an opportunity to discuss private business on private member's day, and I take advantage of this opportunity to say a word or two on that question. I wish to ask Senator O'Connor whether he has any idea that the session is likely to be concluded this year I We have been sitting for nearly twelve months. It is proposed, as soon as this Bill is passed, to have a short adjournment. It has been understood since the Electoral Bill was introduced that a short adjournment would be made in order to allow Senator O'Connor and his colleague to make some preparation for the great work which they will have to do during the next few weeks. I suppose we cannot object to that. 11164 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT According to the strict construction of the standing orders no question can be debated on the second reading of a Supply Bill or Appropriation Bill which is not relevant to its subject matter, but inasmuch as the Senate does not go into Committee of Supply, and it has no other opportunity of airing grievances, I propose to allow Senator Higgs to continue his remarks unless the Senate objects. 11164 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Guy Senator HIGGS The statement of my grievance is not likely to be a lengthy one. Ministers took away private members’ day some months ago, in order that they might rush through the business of the session. It was understood that if private members would consent to give up their day to the discussion of public business, we should get through the work much sooner, but the use of that day his not helped the Government very much. if the session is likely to last until the end of the year, Ministers ought to restore to private members their day, in order that we might discuss matters which affect ourselves or our States. We have no opportunity of discussing such matters, unless we move the adjournment of the Senate--a course which, as a rule, no one cares to take. If it is proposed to continue the session for two or three months, Ministers ought to give us at least two or three hours each week to discuss private members' business. 11164 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I entirely disagree with Senator Riggs with regard to the value of private members' business. I have had considerable experience in connexion with private members' business. A great portion of it is of the most useless character. Let us take the private members' business on the notice-paper and see how time would be employed in discussing it—certainly not profitably. First of all we find this motion in the name of Senator Stewart— That, in the opinion of this Senate the suppression of public meetings in Ireland, at a tune when that country is practically free from crime of an agrarian character, and more especially at this most critical period in the Empire's history, when every endeavour should be made to cement all sections and denominations in a union of hearts, is not only a serious invasion of the free speech which is the birthright of every Briton, but is highly detrimental to the best interests of the British people. What on earth is the good of discussing such matters? 11164 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT The honourable senator must not anticipate the discussion on the notice of motion. 11165 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I can imagine that if the Senate were to pass a motion which referred to some distant part of the world its people might very properly say. — "Please, good Australians, mind your own business, and do not interfere with the business of other people." Next we have this notice of motion, in the name of Senator Pearce— That, in the opinion of the Senate, in order to provide a fund for the payment of old age pensions, and for other purposes, it is desirable that the manufacture and sale of tobacco, cigars, and cigarettes should become a national monopoly within the Commonwealth. My experience of private members business —and it has been a very long one —is that, with the exception of a few motions now and then, it means a perfect waste of the time of Parliament. There are occasions, of course, when very valuable motions are moved under that head, but in the great majority of instances the time of honourable members is frittered away in academical discussions, only fit for some small debating society in the back blocks. I quite appreciate the action of the Government in taking to itself the whole of the time of the Senate, seeing that we can more usefully be employed upon questions that must be settled, and which are of vital importance to the community. I certainly disagree with my honourable friend Senator Higgs. Unless we have more important questions upon the notice-paper to be brought up by private members, I hope the Government will monopolize the whole of the time at our disposal in future. 11165 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING I wish to draw attention in the first place to Part VIII. of the schedule to the Bill. It consists of votes for the Postmaster-General's department. I particularly wish to direct attention to the absolute want of uniformity that characterizes the provisions with regard to the different States. Under the last heading, Division No. 136, "Expenditure in the state of Tasmania," there are three sub-divisions—No. 1, salaries; No. 2, contingencies and No. 3, conveyance of mails. In the case of New South Wales the subdivisions are the same. But in other cases, such as that of South Australia, we simply have salaries and contingencies, and we do not know what are the provisions made with regard to the carrying of mails. In regard to Western Australia there are three subdivisions salaries, fixed allowance, and contingencies; and there is no subdivision whatever with reference to the carriage of mails. I would also point out to the Postmaster-General that the people in the north-western, northern, and western parts of Tasmania are suffering considerable inconvenience by reason of the fact that the English mails to Tasmania are made up for the older established centres of population like Hobart and Launceston. So far as the Inter-State mails are concerned, the grievance has been rectified to some extent. A boat will go from Melbourne to Burnie, carrying the English mails. After they are lauded at. Burnie, they are taken on to Launceston, a six hours' railway journey, and then they are sorted and sent back to Burnie, often causing a delay or 36 hours. From that place they are sent on to the West Coast, causing a delay in the case of those letters of from 48 to 60 hours. That delay would be prevented if there were mail bags made up for the separate places, or if there were a sorting room on board the boat. I think the State of Tasmania is entitled to have a sorting room, just as there are such rooms on the mail trains travelling between the States of the mainland. There is also another matter in connexion with the Postal department to which I wish to allude. I would earnestly direct the attention of honourable senators and of the Postmaster-General to it. I had intended to take another opportunity of alluding to this matter, but now that I am dealing with the administration of the Postal department, I would invite earnest attention to the subject in order that the legislation which we have passed after much deliberation, and which we now all accept, no matter how we may have opposed it individually when it was submitted to us, may be administered in a fair and equitable manner. I asked the Postmaster-General this morning a question with regard to the administration of section 57 of the Post and Telegraph Act. As the Senate had by that time entered upon the business of the clay it was not competent for me to take exception to his reply. The question I asked the honourable gentleman was whether— He will, without delay, in pursuance of the powers conferred on him by section 57 of the Post and Telegraph Act 1901, interdict the transmission through the Poet-office of correspondence addressed to persons carrying on business as bookmakers, turf tipsters, or turf commission agents, and if not, 'why not. To that the honourable and learned senator replied that he— is not aware nor has he been officially advised of the transmission through the Post office of correspondence in contravention of the section referred to, except in a few instances, and in those action has been taken. It is not necessary for me to enter upon any discussion as to the position of Tasmania from a revenue point of view or from any other aspect with reference to the action that has been taken by the Government to induce the Commonwealth Government to withhold their hand in connexion with the prohibition of the transmission of the correspondence to "Tattersall’s." We all know the circumstances of the case, and I have no intention of dwelling upon them. But I would remind honourable senators that, after considerable discussion, both Houses of the Commonwealth Parliament passed that particular section of the Post and Telegraph Act which empowers the Postmaster-General to stop the transmission of correspondence to a person if he be satisfied that that person is receiving, either in the Commonwealth or elsewhere— Money or any other valuable thing as consideration (1) for an assurance or agreement expressed or implied to pay or give or (2) for securing that some other person shall pay or give any money or valuable thing on an event or contingency of or relating to any horse race or other race, or any fight, game, sport, or exercise; (b) for promoting or carrying out a scheme connected with any such assurance, agreement, or security or a lottery or scheme of chance, or an unlawful game; or (c) as contributions or subscriptions towards any lottery or scheme of chance. The Postmaster-General tells me this morning that he "is not aware, nor has he been officially advised," that correspondence is going through the post in contravention of that section of the Act. I have taken the last issue of a newspaper that is published in Melbourne, called the Sportsman. The number of the paper is 1099, and it is issued weekly; showing that it has been in existence over twenty years. On the very first page of that paper I find advertisement after advertisement by bookmakers, turf commission agents, and turf tipsters inviting the public to use the Post-office for sending them money in return for which they will give their clients starting prices on various events. Let honourable senators take this morning's Argus. They will find there the advertisement of a man named Heatley. This is not a single case. Such instances are occurring day after day in connexion with every race meeting. Can the Postmaster-General seriously say to this Senate and to the people of Australia, "You have legislated through the Parliament of the Commonwealth in the direction of not allowing the Post-office to be used for the conveyance of communications respecting gambling, and I have interdicted the transmission of correspondence to a certain limited extent”; whilst here we have examples in one issue of this newspaper—and such examples arc occurring day after day and week after week--advertising the fact that the Post-office is repeatedly used in contravention of the Act? There are in the paper I hold in my hand advertisements of this character and which I will quote. One is from— Fred W. Norman (late Jack Cohen), Bowes' Tattersall's Club, Melbourne. Then follows a list of racing events, after which comes the notification— Letters and telegrams answered immediately on receipt. No reply, no business. S.P. S.P. S.P. Those letters meaning, I presume, starting prices. Then we have the advertisement of— Sol Green, Tattersall's Club, 224 Bourke-street, Melbourne; Tattersall's Club, Sydney; Tattersall's Club, Adelaide . . . . S.P., straight out and doubles . . . . Only Victorian address: Sol Green, Tattersall's Club. All correspondence receives immediate attention. All telegrams must be reply paid, otherwise they will he answered by post. Then we have- Alfred Vockler, premier turf adviser. This advertisement illustrates some of the inducements which are held out to the public to use the Post-office to further the gambling propensities with which many in this country are afflicted. For Ballarat, Thursday and Friday, reliable, exclusive, and valuable information. At this last meeting last year I put up the phenomenal record of ten winners out of twelve events. On the second day I selected every winner on the card. Further comment on this performance would be "painting the lily." He, Vockler, is "the lily!" Here are these men deliberately inviting the public to use the Post-office to send their money and get starting prices and tips on these various events. He goes on— Fees, 10s, daily; £2 monthly. Doubles, 15s. Telegrams must be reply paid. Address, 1 Maritime Chambers, Swanston-street. Private address, Medlock House, 71 Rathdown-street, opposite Exhibition Gardens. These advertisements are all on the front page of the Sportsman, and I simply take this as one of many similar papers. Indeed, the Postmaster-General can find such advertisements in the Argus of to-day and yesterday. 11167 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Would the honourable and learned senator mind informing me again where ten winners out of twelve are to be obtained? 11167 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING That is in the advertisement of Vockler 11167 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen Thank you. The honourable and learned senator is leading me astray! 11167 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING Here is another— The Count (late H. Oxenham and The Count), commission agent, Victorian Club, Melbourne. The Count is a member of the Victorian Club, Melbourne; Tattersall Club, Sydney; and Tattersall's Club, Adelaide. The Count may be see the club. Telegrams should be reply paid. No reply nobusiness. Longest odds guaranteed S.P. on all Sydney events. I could multiply these instances practically ad infinitum. But what I particularly wish to draw attention to is the fact that the Postmaster-General has directed my notice to one or two instances in which he says lie has used the powers conferred upon him by the Post and Telegraph Act, to interdict the use of the Post-office by persons carrying on this business. All he can show me that he has done, however, is that he has interdicted the correspondence of the following:— Phillip Anderson, 411 Campbell-street., Newtown, Sydney. “Old Trainer," Moonee Ponds. How did the Postmaster-General get to know that those particular persons were carrying on business through the Post-office? Did he get to know through his officials? If so, how did they get to know it except through the correspondence? Why does not the Postmaster-General take further action, and interdict the correspondence of others of these men who are "cursing" Australia, are inducing people to send money to them, and using the Post-office to get small amounts into their bags? It is a pure farce to say that this Act is being administered in a fair and equitable manner and in the way in which Parliament has a right to expect the Government to administer it—that is to say, in the manner in which the Senate and the House of Representatives intended it to be administered when the legislation was passed. I wish it to be understood distinctly that I am taking no exception to the legislation in question. We have passed it, and the time for debate as to its expediency has gone by. But so long as I am a member of this Senate, I shall use my utmost endeavours to see that the Act is enforced. It ought not to be on the statute book, as a mere piece of paper with printing on it, which has no meaning whatever. Is it not to be enforced unless the Postmaster-General is induced to enforce it by a deputation of interested persons—interested, I mean, on grounds which commend themselves to them? What does the Postmaster-General mean by saying that he has "no official intimation" of the existence of individuals like those who are carrying on business as tipsters and commission agents in Melbourne and elsewhere? He says that he— [is not aware, nor has he been officially advised, of the transmission through the Post-office of correspondence in contravention of the section referred to. Does the Postmaster-General mean to say by "officially advised "that he intends to wait for a deputation from the National Citizens Temperance League or some other organization before he will put the Act into operation? If it is determined that lie is not to exercise these powers until waited upon under any circumstances, I can promise that I shall organize a deputation to wait upon him, and to bring under his attention the fact that there are in various parts of this Commonwealth men carrying on a business which is aimed at by the very legislation we have passed, and who are receiving such communications through the post under his very eyes. Let us have one law all round—one sauce for the goose, and one for the gander. I take particular notice of this matter for the simple reason that, as honourable senators know, there has been a considerable amount of feeling engendered in the State from which I come. Rightly or wrongly, the matter is there looked upon as one of State rights. It is regarded as an unwarrantable interference with State rights and interests, and as conflicting with the domestic and social legislation of Tasmania, that Tattersall's "correspondence should have been interdicted by the Postmaster-Genera]. I do not say whether the Tasmanian people who take exception to the law are right or wrong in that respect, but I do say distinctly that the action of the Postmaster-General in singling out that one particular instance for the exercise of these powers, and ignoring all those other glaring instances which must be under his notice, and must be under the constant notice of the officers of his department, can only accentuate the irritation that is felt throughout the State from which I come. The Postmaster-General or his subordinates, in discriminating in this way without any justification whatever, have been to my mind shamefully neglectful of the duty cast upon them by the Act. I hope that the Postmaster General will recognise in the future that this is not a matter to be trifled With. The legislation is there upon the statute-book. The object of it, and the arguments adduced by those who favoured it, were that we were not going to allow our postal department to be used as an engine for the promotion of gambling. The Postmaster-General is permitting that every day in the instances I have quoted, and in many more. Until we see the names of Sol. Green, the Count, Fred. W. Norman, Alfred Vockler, and others who are carrying on this "pernicious occupation " in Australia placed upon the interdicted list by the Post-master-General, he himself and his department will stand condemned in the eyes of every fair minded and right-thinking person in this community, no matter what may be their views upon the subject of gambling. 11168 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor The honourable and learned senator might have brought this matter on at some other time. He could have moved the adjournment. 11168 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING I had no other opportunity. The Postmaster-General, in answer to the question I submitted to him this morning, made what I consider to be an evasive reply. He showed that his eyes have been closed to what has been going on around him. It was incompetent for me then to move the adjournment of the Senate, as the business of the day had been called on, and had to be called on for ray question to be put, but, as I understand that when we rise to-day we shall adjourn for a considerable time, and as the 31st March will have gone by—the date from which commences the interdiction of the correspondence to Tattersall – before we meet again, I felt bound to take this opportunity of calling attention to the administration of the Act. I say unhesitatingly to the Postmaster-General, and the members of the Cabinet to which he belongs, that if they persist in the administration of the provisions of the Act to which I refer in the present absolutely unfair manner, and if they do not administer it honestly all round, as was intended to be done when it was incorporated in the legislation of the Commonwealth, they will lose the confidence of a great ninny honourable senators in this Chamber and in the House of Representatives, and will have shown that they are absolutely weak-knead in carrying out legislation which they asked us to pass, and that a spirit of unfairness characterizes their action in connexion with that legislation. 11168 JXO Queensland 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE The honourable and learned senator has complained in the first place of the way in which these estimates are framed. I wish to tell him again, as I told him on the last occasion when a Supply Bill was before us, that the headings in relation to each department must be read in connexion with the estimates for the year. Those estimates have been laid upon the table of the House of Representatives, and have been circulated for the information of Members of Parliament. They are framed in a certain form, following the form adopted in the States in the past. The headings in this Bill correspond with the headings in the estimates. I have said already that, when the time comes for preparing new estimates, I shall endeavour to arrange so that the amounts will be given in greater detail than is the case here. Seeing that these amounts refer in each case to the amounts upon the estimates, the only course that we can follow is to adopt the same headings. That is why in the ease of one State the amount may appear under the heading of "contingencies," while in the case of another it is split up under "contingencies," "mail services," and, perhaps, other headings. I am glad that Senator Keating admits that we have carried out his wishes with regard to the Inter-State mails. So far as the English mails are concerned, we have asked the Imperial authorities time after time to sort the mails and send them out in separate bags, so as to facilitate their distribution at this end. 11168 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING Does the department sort the English mails on board the steamers between here and Tasmania? 11168 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE We desire to give every facility in regard to mail services, but we have to consider whether the necessities of the case are sufficient to warrant the expense of employing a special officer to sort the English mails during their transit from Melbourne to Tasmania. With regard to that celebrated provision, section 57 of the Postal Act, I do not think that Senator Keating has made out any case against my department. It is refreshing to find him here in quite a new character. When that provision was last before the Senate, I understood him to be entirely against it; he did not believe in letters being stopped. Now we find that the clause having been passed, the honourable and learned senator is in favour of stopping some letters which have not been stopped hitherto. That is to say that, because his particular friends suffer a grievance, someone else's friends are to suffer the same grievance in order to satisfy him. What have we done? Tho two cases mentioned by Senator Keating were cases in which action was taken by the department before the Postal Bill was assented to. In the one case the person involved was a tipster. In both instances information was first obtained from an officer in the department. We then applied to the police, and received information from them in regard to the operations of these persons. It was upon that information that the letters were stopped. Since the Postal Act has come into operation notice has been given to three different persons that their letters will be stopped. One is "Tattersall"; another is a man whose name, is 'Jarmulowsky"; while the other is a man with a name still more unpronounceable. 11169 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING Why do you not stop Oxenham's letters? 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE Every case that is properly brought before the department as one in which persons are carrying on the business aimed at in section 57, will be inquired into in the same way. There have been no other cases brought under my notice, since the five to which I have referred. 11169 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING If the Minister is to wait to be moved from outside in these matters, he will have to be moved himself. 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE Every case will receive the same consideration. If Senator Keating likes to introduce a deputation to me, it will receive, the same courteous treatment that other deputations have received. 11169 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen What further notice does the department require than that given by the fact that these letters are going through their hands? 11169 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING Or the advertisements in the newspapers? 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE It is not the duty of the Postmaster-General to read the advertisements, nor do I conceive it to be the duty of any of my officers to do so. 11169 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING The Postmaster-General desires administration by deputation. 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE That is not so, It is necessary first of all to show the department that someone is carrying, on business in an improper way, and that the power given in the section referred to should be put into effect. 11169 K54 0 0 SARGOOD, Frederick Thomas, KCMG Senator FREDERICK SARGOOD It is fortunate that the Customs department is not carried on in that way. 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE That is a very different matter. The Customs department employs officers who might almost be termed detectives, in order to see that the revenue is not defrauded. 11169 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING So does the Postal department 11169 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson Does not the Minister intend to act on the information just brought before him by Senator Keating? 11169 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE I am not prepared to say now whether any one of those cases come properly within section 57. In every case where it has been brought under my notice that the Post-office is being used for purposes which appear to be contrary to the provisions of that section, I have caused some inquiries to be made in order to satisfy me whether the section is being contravened, and that is the course I propose to take in the future. Question resolved in the affirmative Bill read a second time. 11169 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING Before the Bill goes into committee, I desire to intimate, that if nothing be done in the meantime, I intend to test the feeling of the. Senate by taking another course when we re-assemble. In Committee- Clauses 1, 2 and 3 agreed to. The schedule- 11169 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE When the last Supply Bill was before the committee, it was stated, in answer to a question by Senator Stewart, that General Hutton's travelling allowances would be paid by the Government, and that the Ministry were considering the question of paying the travelling allowances of his staff. I would like to ask if any provision is made for such payments in the vote for defence? 11170 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR Yes. "Contingencies,” under the heading of "Headquarters Staff," include travelling allowances for General Hutton and a portion of his staff. Honourable senators will recognise that if General Hutton is to carry out his work, he must have his staff with him, and that the members of that staff cannot be expected to pay their own travelling expenses. 11170 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE At this late hoe there is no time to raise an objection to the vote, but I wish to enter my protest against any payment for travelling allowances being made to General Hutton's staff. Having in view the nature of his duties, and the hurried character of the visits paid recently by him to other States, I consider that there was no necessity for him to take his staff with him oil those occasions. Schedule agreed Bill reported, with amendment, and passed through its remaining stages 11170 motion 11170 11170 JYD New South Wales 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I Move— That the Senate at its rising adjourn until Thursday, 3rd April. That will enable honourable senators to have some little time to themselves before Easter as well as the Easter holidays 11170 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator MAJOR GOULD Why should we meet until the following week? 11170 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I have consulted the Prime Minister as to the condition of business in the other House, and it appears to me that it would be unsafe to adjourn beyond the 3rd of April, having regard to the business that we have to do. We have to dispose of the Public Service Bill, and I hope that we shall receive the Tariff in the following week. I do not agree with Senator Play ford's views in regard to private members' business. I consider that private members are entitled to have some consideration, and I can only again express my thanks for the consideration they have shown for the interests of the public in allowing public business to take precedence over private members' business. I shall ask them to continue that consideration until we have disposed of the Tariff, unless, before we receive it, there is no other urgent business to be dealt with. I am sure that I can rely on the public spirit of honourable senators who have private business on the notice paper to allow urgent public matters to take precedence. Subject to that condition I have every desire to facilitate private members' business. 11170 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON It seems to me that we should meet on Wednesday, 2nd April, instead of on the following day, otherwise we may have some honourable senators saving that Ave, should not meet until the following week. I would ask Senator O'Connor to suggest to his colleagues that the tariff should leave another place before the Easter adjournment, even if late sittings are necessary to secure that end. We have a right to consider now when we are going to get back to our homes and our businesses. Unless we receive the Tariff within the next few days we shall be here until July. I the Tariff were disposed of by another place before Easter, necessary papers might be in readiness to assist us on our re-assembling. 11170 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator Millen I am sure that every honourable senator is as desirous as is the Vice-President of the Executive Council of giving whatever attendance is necessary in order to carry on public business satisfactorily. But I think that he will agree with me that an effort should be made to bestow the maximum convenience upon the maximum number of members. It is proposed that we should meet two days in one week and three in the following week. If, instead of sitting five days in two weeks, we were to take the five days in one, it would be a great convenience to those who are able to return to their homes at the end of each 'week. I have very grave doubts whether the Tariff can be here on the week after we reassemble, and even if it is I do not think it will be considered unreasonable if after Senator O'Connor's second speech is made, a short adjournment takes place. I, for one, do not know exactly what effect the alterations made by the other House will have upon the Tariff, and I desire to hear a statement on the subject from the Vice-President of the Executive Council. If my view is correct, we shall be in exactly the same position about the 12th of next month, whether we carry out Senator O'Connor's programme or that suggested by me. While on the other hand, if he can see his way to adopt my suggestion it will avoid one trip from Sydney or Hobart or Adelaide. Although he has said that he can hardly fall in with the suggestion offered by Senator Gould, I ask him to reconsider it, seeing that there can be no possible loss of the time which the Senate is prepared to place at t the disposal of the Government. 11171 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I am inclined to agree with the remarks of Senator Millen. In common with the rest of us, Senator O’Connor feels the great desirability of securing a proper discussion on the amendments to the public service Bill. If we meet on the Thursday in that week there will be certainly be a thin House. I am quite prepared to attend on that day, but I am convinced that we shall have a very poor House indeed to discuss the amendment in that Bill. If Senator O’Connor can give us assurance-and I think it will meet the convenience of a majority-that Thursday and Friday will be taken for the consideration of private members’ business, I shall not quite oppose the motion. But on the other hand, as an alternative, I am prepared, and I believe every honourable senator would be prepared, to come on Tuesday in the following week. 11171 JYD New South Wales 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I should be very glad, indeed, if I could give effect to the suggestions winch have been made, but, as has been shown, honourable senators have differing views as to what convenience is, and I have to take the responsibility of proposing the course which is most convenient to the House and to the conduct of public business. I have consulted the Prime Minister as to the probable date at which the Tariff will reach this House. We do not wish to adjourn the Senate for such a period as would perhaps give an intimation to another place that there was no necessity to hurry on the completion of the Tariff. We desire to have the Tariff brought here as quickly as possible, and there can be no stronger efforts made than those which have been made by the Government to expedite its arrival. I recognise the force of what Senator Clemons has said about the consideration of the amendments in the Public Service Bill. If honourable senators are not here to go on with the business, then it will have to be done by those who are here. 11171 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS It is a very inconvenient day. 11171 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR I am quite aware of that; but on the other hand we have to consider the convenience of it number of honourable senators who are always here ready to do the business. Besides that, there is private business to go on with – some of it great importance-which ought to be considered. 11171 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS Will the Minister consent to go on with private members' business? 11171 JYD 1 0 O'CONNOR, Richard Edward Senator O'CONNOR It is impossible for me to say now that I shall not go on with the Public Service Bill on the Thursday. I am ready to proceed with the Government business whenever it comes on. I do not say that it will come, but so far as I can, I shall see that it comes on as usual on the Thursday. I am sorry that I cannot meet the convenience of everyone, but the course I am taking is, I think, the best in the public interest.