1904-11-30 2 1 0 SENATE 7572 0 Senate. 1904-11-30 The President took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. 7572 petition Senator PEARCE presented a petition from 253 electors in New South Wales, being the presidents and secretaries of various trade unions in that State, and representing 50,000 or 60,000 members, praying the Senate to pass into law. certain provisions in the Trade Marks Bill relating to trade, union labels. Petition received, read, and ordered to be printed. 7572 miscellaneous 7572 JXT FT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD -Col. NEILD (New South Wales)'. - In terms of standing order 102, sir, I beg to give notice that on the 8th- December I shall move notice of motion No. 3, on Jo-morrow's notice-paper, relating to the report of the Standing OrdersCommittee on the Parliamentary Evidence Bill. I am not quite sure whether I can give notice to-day, under the standing order, or whether I ought to wait until to-morrow to do so. 7572 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Sometimes there seems to be a difference of opinion between the Clerks and an honorable senator as to the notice given, and therefore I call the attention of honorable senators to standing order 98, which reads as follows: - Notice Df motion shall be given by the senator stating its terms to the Senate and delivering at the table a copy of such notice, fairly written, signed by himself, and showing the day proposed for bringing on such motion. That standing order ought to be complied with, because a case has been brought under my notice in which there was a difference of opinion as to the notice given. 7572 JXT FT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD -Col. NEILD.- I thank you, sir,, and I shall be glad to be the first to obey your ruling in this matter. 7572 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - There is nothing before the Senate. 7572 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD D- If I am in order- 7572 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Are there any other notices of motion? 7572 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD - I am suggesting a matter which comes under that heading. Last week I made a mistake. 7572 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Is the honorable senator appealing against your ruling, sir? 7572 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I understand that Senator Neild is giving notice of a motion. 7572 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - But is he giving notice of a motion? 7572 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD - I am dealing with a fresh matter. 7572 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT -I understand that Senator Neild is giving notice of motion. 7572 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD .- With reference to a notice of motion standing in my name for the 15th December, Hansard shows that I made a kind of double barrelled mistake last week. I put the business down for the 15th December, and at the same time used the phrase "next motion day." 7573 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - What is it that the ' honorable senator wishes to do now? 7573 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD - I wish to know, sir, whether' it is possible for the notice in question to be transferred to the 8th December, the first motion day ? 7573 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Lt is necessary that we should have a clear understanding as to what is being done with the notice-paper. I venture to submit, sir, that a notice of motion set down for the 15th December cannot now be altered by way of anticipation. A notice of motion may be postponed, but it cannot be anticipated, and I should like to have a ruling on the point, so that we may know where we are. 7573 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I have never read in any text-book any report of a notice of motion being brought on before the day for which it was given. .[ think that Senator Neild several times mentioned the words 15th December. The Clerks took the notice. down for the 15th December, and I think it will have to stand for that date. 7573 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - But Senator Neild has said that he intimated that he wished this notice of motion to be set down for the first day on which notices of motion were to be taken. The honorable senator should always have an opportunity of having a < notice of motion set down for each Thursday ! 7573 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Will you, sir, intimate to the Senate whether any change has been made on the notice-paper. 7573 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - No change can be made by bringing forward a motion. The consequence of such a proceeding would be very serious indeed. 7573 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - In terms of the standing order? 7573 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - A notice of motion may be put down for a day subsequent to that which was first named, but not for an earlier date. 7573 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - I desire to ask you, sir, a question with reference to the interpretation of a standing order. 7573 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I do not think that the honorable senator ought to ask me any abstract question, as I am only here to answer questions as they arise. 7573 bill Assent reported. 7573 Questions 7573 7573 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Senator HIGGS asked the Attorney-' General, upon notice - Has the Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs observed the following telegram in the Argus of the 16th November : - "A return regarding the Pacific Islanders in the State, tabled in the Legislative Assembly, showed that the total number of islanders in Queensland in 1903 was 8,614, as compared with 8,87s in the previous year. The annual report, under the Emigration Act, upon Pacific Island immigration, also fabled, stated that 1,037 labourers arrived during the year, while 1,065, accompanied by 32 children, were returned " ? Were r,o37 kanaka labourers brought into Queensland in 1903 in accordance with section 6 of the Pacific Island Labourers 'Act, which states that during the year 1903 licences shall be granted for the importation of "not more than one-half of the number of Pacific Island labourers who have returned to their native islands during the year 1902 " ? Is the Prime Minister aware that 1,775 kanaka labourers left Queensland for their islands during the year 1902 (see page 5, Statistics of Queensland, 1903)? Will the Prime Minister make inquiries as to the discrepancy shown between the number of kanakas returned in I 902 and the number brought to Queensland in 1903 ? Will the Prime Minister ascertain for the information of the Parliament whether any kanakas have entered Australia since 31st March, 1904; and also how many kanakas left Australia during the six months ended 30th June, 1904? 7573 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The answers to the honorable senator's questions are as follow': - Yes. No ; see reply to question 4. Yes. ; 4. During 1903 licences to recruit 8S8 islanders, the number provided, for by Statute, were issued. In addition to that number approval was given to applications by the Queensland Government for the re-issue of licences to the number of 240 on account of labourers previously short shipped or rejected. 5. (a) No Pacific Islanders have entered the Commonwealth since the 31st March, 1904. 222 Islanders left the Commonwealth during the six months ended 30th June, 1904. 7573 7573 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - As the Government have decided to refund all moneys lodged in terms of section 167 of the Customs Act for payment of duty on China oil, and all duties paid under protest on such oil, if applications for refunds are made by the persons making such deposits or paying such duties, will the Government refund all moneys paid since 8th October, 1901, as duties on China oil conforming I to the definition contained in Order 436 to all persons who have paid same, irrespective of whether such duties were paid under protest or deposited in terms of section 167 of the Customs Act? 7574 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The answer to the honorable senator's question is as follows : - It appears to be doubtful if the duties referred to as not paid under protest or deposited in terms of Section 167 of the Customs Act, can be legally refunded, but the Government will make further inquiries, and if necessary refer the question to the Commonwealth law officers before finally deciding. 7574 7574 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - Has the Government any objection to lay on the Table of the Senate a precis of the correspondence between the Government of the Commonwealth and the Government of India, in relation to the admittance of residents of India into the Commonwealth under a system of passports? 7574 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No. 7574 7574 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE asked the Attorney-General, upon notice - In reference to the answer given by the Honorable the Minister to the question asked by Senator Pearce on Thursday, 24th November, in regard to the seizure and sale of certain undervalued goods in Melbourne - Has there been a similar seizure in Sydney during the past few months? Was the importer a person of the same name ? If not, will the Government give the name of the person? 7574 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The answers to the honorable senator's questions are as follow : - No. and 3. Certain importations of the same class of goods and by the same person were passed by the Customs in Sydney. Strict inquiry is now being made as regards the whole transaction. 7574 bill 7574 Motion (by Senator Sir Josiah Symon) proposed - That the Bill be now read a third time. 7574 JVC Tasmania 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - I should like to move that this Bill be referred back to the Committee for the purpose of considering a new clause, which is, I think, absolutely necessary to make it perfect. But probably the Attorney-General can save me the trouble of moving for the recommittal. When the Bill was in Committee, I drafted a clause, and showed it to my honorable and learned friend, to the effect that the Bill should not apply to any contract for the shipment of fruit from any part of the Commonwealth signed prior to the passage of the measure. Because, as I pointed out, the method which the fruit-growers adopt in employing the mail steamers to ship their fruit to England, is to work through two large fruit merchants - H. Jones and Company and Peacock and Company - who enter into contracts with the steam-ship companies. The fruit-growers have nothing to do with the companies directly. The whole of the contracts are made by these two firms. I believe that the firms have entered into contracts with the companies for two years - one for the last season, and one for the coming season ; and I think that in all fairness a clause should be prepared to save those contracts, and not make them absolutely void. 7574 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Then the shipping companies would, for twelve months, be exempt from the Bill. 7574 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - That men can act the rogue under this measure, as they can under any Act of Parliament, is no reason why we should not insert a clause allowing things to remain as they are until the existing contracts run out. I sent a copy of the Bill to the two firm's I have named, who have these contracts with the Peninsular and Oriental and Orient companies, and I have here a letter from the largest shipper, who hopes that the clause I have suggested will be inserted. It seems to me to be a proper clause, because, as the shipper points out to me, if the Peninsular and Oriental and Orient companies - I do not say that they will - think that the terms of the measure are so onerous that they cannot undertake to carry fruit under it without quoting enormously enhanced freights, the fruit-growers will not reap the advantage that they expected to do. But, as the firms of H. Jones and Company and Peacock and Company point out that they will be robbed of the benefits of their contracts; which apply to the whole of next year's fruit, my contention is that the Bill ought not to be made to apply to those contracts. I am astonished that my honorable friends opposite should think it right that contracts which have been entered into - as these con- tracts have been for the last ten years - and upon which the whole of the fruit trade of Tasmania is conducted, should be rendered nugatory by an Act of Parliament. I am astonished at the sneers and jeers of honorable senators. It is another proof that sometimes they do not know the meaning of the provisions which they support. It will save time if the Attorney-General will tell me that he will ask the Prime Minister to give consideration to this very weighty matter when the Bill reaches the other House. I only desire that justice shall be done, and if my honorable and learned friend will assist me to the extent I have suggested, it will not be necessary for me to move the recommittal of the Bill. 7575 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE - I should like to add a word to what my honorable and learned friend, Senator Dobson, has said. I regret that I was not able to be present last week, as I was engaged in another part of the Commonwealth with the Navigation Commission. The fruit trade is entirely in the hands of the shipping companies, for good or bad; and if we force upon them conditions which they cannot carry out easily and profitably, the result must be to add to the cost of transport. Unless fair notice is given, existing contracts will be null and void. In saying this, I am speaking by the book. The consequence will be the raising of freights to the exporters of fruit. I think, therefore, that in fairness and justice a clause ought to be added such as Senator Dobson has proposed. The clause need not be inserted by the Senate, but may be added in another place. It should provide that existing contracts may be allowed to run for twelve months or for six months ; probably six months would be sufficient. To grant that term will only be acting with equity and justice, and without injury to any one. 7575 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I think that this Bill illustrates the disadvantages of hasty legislation. The whole subject of bills of lading is provided for in the Navigation Bill, which was under the consideration of the Senate at the beginning of the session. The measure has been referred to a Royal Commission, which is at the present time taking evidence both in respect to the Navigation Bill generally and to the clauses which form part of the Bill under the consideration of the 'Senate. The 'two gentlemen mentioned by Senator Dobson have given evidence before the Commission, and both of them said that they preferred the clauses contained in the Navigation Bill to those which are embodied in this. They see now what any one might have seen at the beginning, that the shippers are not going to get the advantages that they expired from the measure. The shipping con*,panies without a doubt intend to make themselves secure. 7575 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Is the honorable senator opposed to this Bill ? 7575 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I am not prepared - and I have gone into the subject as closely as any honorable senator has done- to say whether the provisions are absolutely fair all round. 7575 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The other side have had a fair chance to put their case. 7575 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - They have not had a fair opportunity. The Tasmanian "shippers, at any rate, made very indefinite statements to the Royal Commission regarding the whole matter. 7575 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Because they are afraid that the Bill will interfere with the fruit-growing industry. 7575 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The Tasmanian fruit-growers have never expressed a fair opinion on the subject. 7575 KMT 0 0 GRAY, John Senator Gray - The honorable senator is not defending the present bills of lading, is he? 7575 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No; but I say that the question is a very intricate one, which will bear a great deal of looking into. Honorable senators know perfectly well that a large shipment of fruit when placed on board a vessel cannot be minutely examined. We also know that the largest amount of damage which occurs to shipments of fruit is caused through over-ripe fruit being shipped. In fact, the Tasmanian shippers admit that the big losses of last year were caused by the presence of fruit that never ought to have been shipped. Do honorable senators expect the shipowner to examine every apple? 7575 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The Bill does not say that. 7575 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The Bill says that the ship-owner is responsible. Would there not be negligence if the ship-owner took on board over-ripe fruit which caused damage? It is well known, I say again, that well-selected fruit is damaged by being shipped with fruit that is over-ripe. 7575 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - The owners are not liable in that case. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - They will be liable. They are responsible. It is their fault if they take over-ripe fruit. 7576 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - If they take over-ripe fruit which damages other fruit, they ought to be liable. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Suppose there are a dozen shipments of fruit from a dozen different fruit-growers ; that eleven of those growers have carefully selected their fruit and put it in the refrigerators in perfect order; but that one grower ships overripe fruit, which damages the whole of the rest of the cargo. We have evidence that there is fruit lying in Tasmania to-day which has been there since last May, and which it is intended to ship during the coming season. The evidence goes to show that over-ripe fruit, on being placed in the refrigerating chambers, throws off a considerable amount of carbonic acid gas, which may damage the whole of a shipment, or even destroy it utterly. I say that if a ship-owner takes on board over-ripe fruit he is liable to damages under this Bill for negligence. 7576 KMT 0 0 GRAY, John Senator Gray - Not a bit of it. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - It must be so. 7576 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - He is only liable for his own negligence in respect of proper loading or stowage. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The whole question is - who is going to be responsible for over-ripe fruit which damages a whole shipment? The ship-owner, in the usual way of signing a bill of lading, signs for the case ; he does not sign for the fruit. He signs that the cases are in good order and condition. 7576 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - If a ship-owner is sued for damages, does the honorable senator say that he has to prove a negative? The onus of proof is on the man who brings the action. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - What I say is that, if some fruit is shipped by means of which a cargo of fruit is injured, the shipowner will be held to be liable. It will be an easy matter for the eleven shippers in the instance I have cited to say, " We can prove that our fruit was in good condition when it was put on board the ship, but it has turned out bad." Would not the ship-owner be liable then? 7576 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Surely not, unless it was proved that his negligence was the cause of the damage. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Who is going to prove that the other fruit was over-ripe? The ship-owner must, in his evidence, say that the other fruit was damaged by the over-ripe fruit. 7576 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - No. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I cannot see how honorable senators can avoid the argument. If eleven shippers put fruit on board a ship in good condition, and if when the fruit arrives at the other end of the world it is proved to be bad, the question arises, " How has it become bad ?" 7576 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - It may be due to careless packing. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the consignee refuses to accept delivery, and an action is brought, the ship-owner will have to prove that the damage was not due to any negligence of his. 7576 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - No; the consignee will have; to prove the shipowners' negligence. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - But it will be proved that the fruit was put on board in good condition. I should like to see the Attorney -General appearing in a case of this sort. 7576 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - I should have no difficulty. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - On either side, I suppose. There will be absolute proof that the fruit was in good condition, and that there was the mate's signature to the bill of lading. 7576 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - That is only prima facie evidence. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - There will, no doubt, be expert evidence that the fruit was put on board in good condition, and plenty of proof that it was bad when landed. There will, further, be expert evidence that fruit can be carried in refrigerating chambers without coming to any harm; and the natural inference will be that there must have been negligence either in taking fruit on board in an over-ripe condition, or in badly stowing it. According to the evidence given before the Royal Commission the Tasmanian output of applies was doubled last year, and, as the number of trees could not be doubled, the conclusion to be drawn is that the growers shipped every apple, good and bad, that was to be found in the island. 7576 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - No; it was a very wet season, and there was a good crop. 7576 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - There are other ways of doubling the output. 7576 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Apples cannot be manufactured. 7577 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - But they can be grown. 7577 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - Last year was a phenomenal year for growth. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I know that, so' far as the keeping of apples was concerned, it was a phenomenally bad year, there being' heavy rains, which did the fruit no good. The Royal Commission have not been able vet to ascertain the cause of the apples going bad, and there is considerable conflict of evidence amongst experts as to the best means of carrying the fruit. So far as I can learn, no method has yet been adopted whereby the carbonic acid gas can be extracted from the chambers. 7577 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If the chambers are properly ventilated there will be no gas. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If there are ventilators a regular temperature cannot be kept. The best of refrigerating experts say that it is impossible to have ventilators and preserve an even temperature. 7577 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - It would cost a little more, that is all. 7577 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - The fruit can be carried with the dry air process. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - But that generates the gas just as much as does the other process ; indeed, we are told that the former generates more gas. 7577 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - What destroys the apples is excessive moisture. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - We are told by experts that it is the gas, and not the moisture, which destroys the apples. There is evidence that there are varying temperatures in the chamber, but, on the other hand, experts say that it is an utter impossibility to keep an even temperature in all parts of the chamber. In one corner the temperature may be down to 32 or 33 degrees, while in another corner, with the same machinery, and with distribution as perfect as it is possible to make it, the temperature may be 38 or 40 degrees. 7577 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - A temperature of 38 degrees will not hurt apples 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - the shippers ask for legislation to compel a uniform temperature of from 32 to 38 degrees, and everybody knows that a temperature of 32 degrees, which is freezing point- 7577 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Destroys the apples. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Such a temperature freezes the produce ; and yet it was that for which .the deputation to the Prime Minister asked. 7577 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - They did not know what they were talking about. 7577 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - That is what I say - the Senate is merely pandering to people who do not know what they want. This is a matter which was referred to the Royal Commission on the Navigation Bill, and the policy of past Governments was to refuse to deal with the question piecemeal. Both this session and last session strong requests were made that one part of the Navigation Bill might be dealt with, but previous Governments absolutely refused to be a party to any such course. Indeed, one of the members of the Barton Government was compelled to resign office on this very point. Now, virtually without any notice, a Bill is introduced, and inside a week is advanced through the whole of its stages. Those interested have had no opportunity to express an opinion as to the justice or otherwise of the measure; and I hope the Senate will come to the conclusion that the Bill ought to be delayed until more evidence is obtained. 7577 K8T Victoria 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH - I think that SenatorGuthrie in some measure misconceives the scope and intention of the Bill. It provides that the shipowner shall not continue, as most people think he has hitherto wrongfully done, to contract himself out of all obligation to exercise reasonable and ordinary care. In any case, the objections now offered, if valid, ought to have been urged on the second reading of the Bill. 7577 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Or in Committee on the second clause. 7577 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH - The objections are of so sweeping a character, and are so directed against the principle of the Bill, that they ought to have been presented on the second reading. I earnestly hope that the Bill will be speedily carried, because it can inflict no injury on any person, while it will relieve a large number from an injury perpetrated in times past. It seems monstrous that persons should have the power to declare, by agreement,, that, while they take money for carrying goods, they assume no responsibility. Ship-owners are not asked to be answerable for landing the produce in good order, but merely to exercise reasonable care and attention, and it must be shown that reasonable care and attention have not been exercised before damages can be obtained. At any rate, all the Bill does, to start with, is to prevent the parties contracting themselves out of rights which would exist but for the agreements now made. It preserves to shippers their common law rights, which the shipowners now compel them to contract themselves out of. 7578 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I was absent last week, and had no opportunity to comment on the measure, and, consequently, must take the present opportunity. While I do not wish to enter into the merits of the form of bill of lading in use, I venture to say that this legislation is a great mistake, even from the stand-point of those for whose benefit it is introduced. So far as I understand the clauses of the Navigation Bill, I am sure that a more satisfactory measure would have been passed if matters had all been allowed to take their natural course. 7578 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Does the honorable senator think that the clauses in the Navigation Bill, as they stand, would better answer the purpose? 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I believe they would, because there are in the Navigation Bill provisions which are not to be found in the measure before us. I feel sure that once the shippers understand the position they have placed themselves in by rushing this' legislation, they will realize that they have done themselves an injury. But, apart from that aspect of the matter, I must enter my protest against the unfair action of the Government in taking this matter out of the hands of the Royal Commission, and legislating in regard to it at the tail end of the session. The fact is that up to the present time the shippers have pretty well monopolized the attention of the Royal Commission. There have been witnesses galore, and we thoroughly know their side ; but not a single witness has yet given evidence on the part of the ship-owners. 7578 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - That is not our fault. 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - It is the fault of every one who gives consent to this legislation. 7578 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Senator Macfarlane is a member of the Royal Commission; what was he doing? 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Senator Macfarlane is in the same position as are other members of the Royal' Commission who protest against this matter being taken out of their hands. 7578 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The Royal Commission must have been asleep ! 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Surely Senator Dawson does not think that we can take evidence from half-a-dozen witnesses at once. 7578 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - It must be that the ship-owners have nothing to say against the Bill. 7578 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - The Bill does not deal with matters, of general navigation. 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - The Bill deals with matters which should have been left in abeyance until the Royal Commission reported. 7578 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - The Bill deals with unfair contracts. 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Which have been going on for years. 7578 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - And which, therefore, should be stopped. 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - This is not the only question of reform which was handed over to the Royal Commission. Had the interests of seamen or wharf labourers been involved we should not have found honorable senators opposite in such indecent haste to legislate. 7578 KMT 0 0 GRAY, John Senator Gray - Can the honorable senator give us any idea when the report of the Royal Commission will be presented ? 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - The report will be presented in due course. 7578 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The report will be presented without any unnecessary delay. 7578 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - As I say, we have had a rush of witnesses on the shippers' side. I was under the impression that Senator Gray, who I think is a little unfair in this matter, was here in the interests of the ship-owner, as well as in the interests of the shipper. This piecemeal method of dealing with legislation for the improvement of our navigation laws is not satisfactory, and it is unfair to the Navigation Commission, to whom the question should have been left. I question very much whether this Bill might not have been ruled out of order ootha ground that the matter with which it deals has been referred to a Royal Commission, and that such' legislation should not be introduced until that Commission has submitted its report. I have no desire to assist hurried legislation, which I believe will do the shippers more injury than good, because the clauses contained in the Navigation Bill are more comprehensive, and' would be more beneficial to the shippers than will the provisions of this Bill. 7579 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - They have said so themselves. The two principal shippers in Tasmania have admitted that. 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - That is so. I quite admit that bills of lading as at present drawn are very unfair to the shippers, but we should hear the other side of the case before we legislate upon the matter. The present bills of lading are very one sided, in throwing all responsibility upon the shippers, and relieving the shipping companies. If the bills of lading adopted by Australian shipping companies are contrasted with those adopted by the German lines, it will be seen that the latter are more fair to the shippers. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The honorable senator only thinks so. 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I have very good reason for thinking so, and I question whether Senator McGregor knows anything at all about the subject. If the honorable senator had an opportunity to compare the bills of lading drawn by the German companies with those drawn by the Adelaide Steam-ship Company, he would have to admit that the German companies' bills of lading are more fair to the shippers. All Australian shipping companies have adopted practically the same bills of lading. 7579 K7V FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is it; there is a combination, and monopoly. 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I believe that is so; but I still think that the Government should not have introduced this Bill when the matter with which it deals has been referred to the Navigation Commission. As a member of that Commission. I enter my protest against the passing of this Bill. 7579 KTF South Australia 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - I am very sorry that the action of the Government, and of the Senate, should have roused the ire of members of the Navigation Commission. 7579 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - I join with the honorable senator in his regret. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - I am also very sorry that the members of the Commission who are members of the Senate did not come here with more open minds to consider the legislation on which we have been engaged while they were looking after the shippers in Tasmania. 7579 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Senator Higgs - Honorable senators want to steal their thunder. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - We have no desire to interfere with their work. 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Honorable senators are interfering all the same. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - No, we are not. We are endeavouring to make provision for what we consider to be an urgent necessity. The' Navigation Commission may still go on with its investigation into bills of lading and the storage of fruit and other produce, and if they think fit they will be quite welcome to propose the repeal of this measure if it should become law, and embody in a future Navigation Bill such provisions as will do away with the evils against which we are endeavouring to provide a remedy now. Senator de Largie invites honorable senators to believe that some German shipping companies are far more liberal to shippers than are the companies which have almost a monopoly of the trade of Australia. If the honorable senator had studied the evidence given before the Navigation Commission with respect to the bills of lading entered by the German shipping companies, he might have found that, so far as superficial appearance is concerned, they are very liberal, and that under them the German companies do not contract themselves out of their obligation to be careful of all goods placed in their charge; but the honorable senator would also have found that if anything happened to the goods the shippers would have to go to Germany, and have their claims considered there. Of what advantage would that be to Australian shippers ? 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - That is a geographical difficulty. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - It is a very serious geographical difficulty, and the case would have to be tried under German law, and not under the laws of Australia. We are proposing a law here under which neither British nor foreign shipping companies shall be allowed to evade their responsibility. We do not desire that they should be compelled to do anything unreasonable. 7579 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - If it is contrary to Imperial law they will get out of it all the same. 7579 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - All that we wish to provide for is that when goods are given into the charge of any shipping company, they shall be compelled to exercise ordinary care in the transit of them. 7579 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - The German companies agree to do that now without any law. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - So much the better for the shippers who ship by the German companies' vessels. We desire to put our own shipping companies on the same footing, by providing that they shall exercise all reasonable care in the carriage of produce. It must be remembered that we are proposing to provide for the safe carriage, not only of apples from Tasmania, and oranges from Parramatta, but of butter from Victoria, and cheese from Tasmania, if that State should export any. 7580 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - And wool. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - Yes, wine and wool, and everything else. Our intention is merely that ordinary care shall be exercised in the carriage of goods, and if goods are damaged in transit the shippers under this Bill is required to prove that the shipping company, or its servants, did not exercise ordinary care. If he cannot prove that he will have no redress. I have heard some members of the Navigation Commission make the statement that the Commission has taken the evidence of two of the largest shippers, in Tasmania. 7580 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The only two shippers. 7580 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - The only two who came before the Commission. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - The only two the Commission had any knowledge of. 7580 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - They said that they shipped 85 per cent, of the total shipment of Tasmanian apples. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - Very well ; some one else must have shipped the other 15 per cent. I must say that I sympathize with the innocence of the members of the Navigation Commission. If they had given but the slightest consideration to the evidence submitted in Victoria to the Butter Commission, they would have known that the large shippers are all right - not only do they get their goods looked after, but they get a commission from various shipping companies for sending their goods by their steamers. It is the small' shipper, who has a few hundred cases of fruit or boxes of butter, or small quantities of any kind of produce to ship, that we require to look after. The larger shipper can look after his own business, and there is very good proof, that he is well able to do so. 7580 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable' senator knows nothing about the matter. The small shipper can get no space at all. 7580 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - I got space the other day for eight cases of oranges, and six were delivered destroyed. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - Senator Guthrie need not imagine that I am so silly as to believe that the small shipper cannot get some consideration. 7580 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - He cannot get space. 7580 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - The difficulty is that when he does get space, the same care is not taken of his goods. The honorable senator has raised the question that a shipping company might take in nine tenths of the cargo of fruit in prime condition, whilst the other tenth might be overripe, or under ripe, and, as a consequence, more gas might issue from the shipment than could be supplied by the Senate and House of Representatives, with the result that the nine-tenths of the cargo shipped in good condition would be greatly damaged. What I would recommend in such a case, and what every honorable senator should recommend, is that no. produce should be exported from any port in Australia without the strictest Government supervision. If that practice were adopted' the small shippers, instead of sending their few cases of apples or boxes of butter direct, could give them into the charge of a State or a Commonwealth Department charged' with this supervision, and they would then get the same consideration as; the large shippers. What Senators Guthrie and de Largie suggest is that, in the meantime, and until the Navigation Commission has taken all its evidence, made its recommendations, and a Navigation Bill has been passed into law, the small producers in Australia must remain at the mercy of the shipping companies, and be subordinate to the will of the big shippers, who can always make their own conditions for the carriage of their goods. It is in the interest of the small shippers that we are endeavouring to pass this legislation, and I hope, honorable senators will look at the matter in that light. We have no wish to treat the. Navigation Commission with any disrespect, or to do anything that would lower the: members of that Commission in the estimation of the people of Australia, but we do desire to pass legislation which we think is urgent. If the legislation which we" pass can be improved as a result of the work of the Navigation Commission, I am sure that the members of this Senate will be glad to assist the Commission in securing its improvement. 7580 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I' regret that anything should occur to delay the passage of this Bill, which I think is; necessary in the interest of honest dealing between shippers and ship-owners. Senator Guthrie has said that the remarks made by Senator Dobson have shown the evil resulting from hasty legislation, but the remarks which have been made by Senators Guthrie and de Largie have shown that it is exceedingly dangerous, even with the most friendly intentions, to interfere with the chicken while the mother hen is about. The Navigation Commission evidently looks upon this question of bills of lading as one of its chicks, and though we have interfered in the matter with the most friendly intention, the Commission, like the mother hen, objects that we have no right to interfere at all. 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Other Governments have said that they would not legislate in piece-meal fashion. 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Former Governments may have been entirely wrong in taking up that attitude. I fail to see why this Parliament should be bound by the act of a previous Parliament, when it cannot be shown to be a good decision. All that the Bill does is to prevent ship-owners from contracting themselves out of their common law obligations. Why should they be allowed a privilege which is denied to every other person? The Bill deals with a subject of immediate urgency. If the Royal Commission can suggest improvements, it will be very easy for Parliament to adopt them. 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - This legislation can be easily evaded; the ship-owners will only take fruit at the shippers' risk. 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I hold an entirely different opinion. Some honorable senators seam to run away with the idea that the Bill is to apply only to the fruit industry, whereas it applies to every kind of produce. Is it not equally important that butter should be carried under proper conditions, so that it shall not be spoiled in transit? 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - There are never any complaints. 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - There . have been dozens of complaints about the carriage of butter. How many shipments of meat from this country have been spoiled, owing to the failure of the refrigerating machinery or the neglect of the officers to keep the refrigerating hold at a proper temperature? 7581 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - What provision is there in the Bill to meet that case? 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - It is provided that if the loss, damage, or injury be due to neglect the ship-owner shall be liable. At the present time ship-owners can contract themselves out of their common law obligations. 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - So they can under this Bill. 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Only live cattle are exempt from its provisions. 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - And so will fruit be.. 7581 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - No, the Bill will apply to everything except live stock. I fail to see where a great wrong has been done to the Royal Commission on the Navigation Bill. I believe that it is performing good work, but we are not interfering with its functions. We know that the inquiry will continue for twelve months. Shippers of fruit, butter, and meat are liable to suffer very great loss unless this legislation be passed. We are making a humble effort to rectify an evil. I fail to see why the members of the Royal Commission or any one else should take umbrage at. our action. I am exceedingly anxious that the Bill should be passed without further delay. 7581 K0X South Australia 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It would have been well if a number. of the observations which have been addressed to the Senate to-day had been delivered when the second reading of this Bill was moved. We should have been exceedingly pleased if Senator Guthrie had favoured us with the experience he has gained from examining so many witnesses on this subject. 7581 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - We were in Hobart taking evidence at the time. 7581 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It is amusing to hear my honorable friend taking the Government to task for daring to bring forward such a Bill. The question of the third reading has been discussed from two aspects. In the first place, Senator Dobson asked the Government to consider whether certain persons who have entered into contracts should not be allowed to continue them. And I understand from the nodding of the Attorney-General that they intend to take that matter into their consideration. My own opinion is that under the circumstances no relief in that direction should be given. 7581 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - It is the shippers, and not the ship-owners, who ask that this clause be inserted. 7581 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - The shippers are not the growers. 7582 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - The growers and shipping merchants make this request. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - The honorable and learned senator means the commission agents. 7582 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - No. 7582 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - He means the fruit brokers. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It is only the middle-men who are asking for this alteration. I believe that the contract has one year to run. 7582 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - This measure revokes the contract. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It should revoke all existing contracts, and prevent such contracts from being entered into. A contract might be entered into for a period ranging from ten to twenty years, and where should we draw the line? 7582 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - We must do justice. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It is a well understood principle of common law that all carriers are answerable for any damage caused by their negligence. We contend that this contracting out of the common law liability is against public policy, and must be stopped. 7582 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - As regards perishable products, I doubt whether we can or ought to do so. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - If the shipowner can show that there has been no negligence on his part, he is not liable. He is only liable for loss or damage to goods arising from - the harmful or improper condition of the ship's hold, or any other part of the ship in which goods are carried, or arising from negligence, fault, or failure in the proper loading, stowage, custody, care, or delivery of goods received by them, or any of them, to be carried in or by the ship - The Government will do well to pass the Bill as it is, and to make no exceptions. Senator Guthrie practically argues against the Bill. He is opposed to its passage at the present moment. 7582 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Until we hear the evidence on the other side. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - So far as the apple trade is concerned, if we do not pass this Bill, the growers, in not only Tasmania, but Victoria and South Australia, will lose the protection we are seeking to give them for the whole of this season. My honorable friend contends that we ought not to legislate hurriedly on this subject, but should wait until the report of the Royal Commission is brought up: But I submit that when our attention is drawn to a practice which is injurious to public policy, and to our producers, it is our duty to take immediate steps to amend the law. If the Royal Commission should find that an alteration of this measure is advisable, it can be I made when the Navigation Bill is being considered. 7582 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - But we have no proof that damage is being done. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - I arn very doubtful as to some of the evidence which my honorable friend has referred to. He said that over-ripe apples have destroyed apples which were shipped in good condition. I have had considerable experience regarding the shipment of apples to London. During the four years I was Agent-General for South Australia, apples were consigned to our depot, and we had the sale of them. Tasmanian apples were never in as good a condition as the Victorian and South Australian apples. Fairly large shipments of South Australian apples of different sorts were sent home. In one instance 100 cases were shipped in an over-ripe condition, and when they were landed in London they went into pulp upon being squeezed. But other shipments arrived in excellent condition. Frequently the engineers destroy a whole shipment through allowing the chambers to get far too hot or too cool. I had long conversations with engineers, and recommended that they should procure self registering thermometers, so that when the temperature got too low, cold air could be let into the chamber. When a whole shipment of apples arrives in an over-ripe condition, it is clear that they were not kept sufficiently cool during the passage. The engineers may say that they were, but it can be proved unmistakably that there was some fault or negligence somewhere. 7582 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - But some apples carry better than others. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - Undoubtedly. The shippers know the sorts which will carry well to England. 7582 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - A uniform temperature cannot be kept in any chamber. 7582 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - A uniform temperature is not needed for apples. What is needed is a temperature of about 32 degrees, and, if possible, not to exceed 45 degrees, and in that case the apples will be landed in good condition. I have taken apples home in my cabin and landed them in excellent condition. 7582 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - So have I. 7583 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - Very often the apples are packed without leaving the necessary space for air to circulate, and the result is that the outside of the case is frozen, and the contents are heated. The cold air cannot get to the apples. Sometimes, too, when the door of the refrigerating chamber is opened, icicles are to be seen hanging down on one side. The circulation of cold air has been unequal, and yet complaints are made of the condition in which the apples are shipped, and responsibility is denied. The shippers have to depend upon human beings to keep an even temperature during the passage. In nineteen cases out of twenty it is neglect on the part of engineers and others on the ship which causes all the trouble ; reasonable care has not been exercised,1. Shipment after shipment in ships, in which certain engineers have travelled, has been landed in excellent condition, while shipments in other vessels have invariably arrived in very bad condition. 7583 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Both the mail companies give their engineers a bonus for every shipment of apples which they land in good order. 7583 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - In. years gone by that was not done, and no doubt it is only done now because it has been found necessary. I think that this Bill should be passed at the earliest possible moment, and I support its third reading. Senator MULCAHY (Tasmania).There is no reason why there should not be a debate upon the third reading of any Bill. The stage is generally formal, but this Bi'll is of such importance to the fruit-growers of Tasmania that a representative of that State, who was not present last week, may be excused for saying something on the subject. As a general rule, when a Royal Commission is appointed to inquire into a specific subject, and has partly completed its investigations, and when it has become possessed of valuable information, it is entitled to a certain amount of respect from the Parliament of the day. That respect does not seem to have been paid to the Royal Commission on the Navigation Bill. There are two questions involved in this measure, as Senator Playford has " said. One is that which has been put forward by Senator Dobson. It is important that this measure should not be applied to the abrogation of existing contracts so far as concerns the next six or twelve months. This point is very important for the Tasmanian fruit growers. We are now approaching the fruit season, and may this year be in a position to export even more apples than we exported last year, though that was a phenomenal season. The increase is due to the fact that each year more orchard land has been brought into cultivation. But this Parliament is about to pass legislation which, in the form |ifc now takes, will absolutely annul existing contracts, or, at any rate, will impose additional obligations which those who entered into the contracts did not expect to have to undertake. The carriage of fruit to England is undertaken by four or five of the large companies. The competition between them has brought down freights to a certain extent. I assume that the leader of the Senate will in all fairness agree to have the matter mentioned by Senator. Dobson brought under the consideration of the Prime Minister, and that serious consideration will be given to it. The importance of the Tasmanian fruit trade deserves that that consideration shall be given, because, although technically .the measure applies to a large variety of products, we know that it affects the fruit trade particularly. With regard to the third reading of the Bill, I do not see that any great mischief would happen if it were not passed at all at' the present moment. We shall probably have the Navigation Bill before us next session, and that measure includes clauses which are, I believe, more comprehensive than the provisions of this Bill. 7583 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - They are better provisions, too. 7583 KVD TASMANIA 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY - I am not sufficiently acquainted with them to .know whether they - are better, but they are certainly more numerous. It might be advantageous to wait until we receive the report of the Royal Commission, the members of which are qualified, some on account of their past experience and some of their trade associations, to deal with the subject. What necessity is there to rush the Bill ? What great harm will be done if the consideration of it is left open for a few months? 7583 KMT 0 0 GRAY, John Senator Gray - The subject has been under consideration for years. 7583 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY - The honorable senator, with his Conservative tendencies, is not usually in favour of hasty legislation. This Bill involves very important principles. There are other subjects of great importance affecting the mercantile community which are quite as worthy of legislative treatment. There is, for instance, the subject of fire assurance, and the desirableness of compelling the insurance companies to meet the claims of persons who pay for the risks which the companies undertake. 7584 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - If a Bill of that kind were brought forward, some one would say that it was inopportune. 7584 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY - I admit that the principle of the Bill is a good one, but we have to consider its immediate effects. What harm would there be if its operation were delayed for a few months ? It must be remembered that Ave cannot afford to run any risks with the Tasmanian fruit trade. We need to have all the conditions in our favour and nothing against us, if we are to conduct a profitable industry. We experienced a great deal of trouble in getting our fruit shipped to England in the first instance. We had to submit to very severe conditions and very high freight rates from the start. We have now been able to induce the large steamers to call at Hobart, and their competition has had the effect of reducing freights. Probably in time the competition would remove the. grievance in respect of the bills of lading which we have had to submit to in the past. 7584 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Not if the companies form a ring. 7584 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY - So far a ring has not been formed. If the Senate insists upon the third reading of the Bill, I hope, in common with Senator Dobson, that the Prime Minister will give consideration to the points which have been brought forward so that existing contracts may not be abrogated, . at any rate, for the next six or twelve months. May I be allowed, before resuming my seat, to read the letter to which Senator Dobson referred, and which has a very imp or ant bearing on this subject. It is as follows : - 1 I would ask you, however, to endeavour to get a clause inserted providing that this Bill should not apply to contracts already in hand, as otherwise, if the mail and other companies agreed not to work under the provisions of your new Bill, it would put us in the position of not having any ships to send fruit by during the coming season, while with this clause, as we suggest, it will give us time to make fresh arrangements for the following year's freight. 7584 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - Who is the writer of the letter? 7584 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY - The secretary of the principal exporting firm, H. Jones and Company Lt'd. It has been stated by way of interjection, and I can ratify it, that this firm, and that of Peacock and Company, are the agents for hundreds of fruit-growers in Tasmania. 7584 K1U New South Wales 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator PULSFORD - When this Bill was under the consideration of the Senate last week, I warned honorable senators that they must not imagine that the absence of direct statements on behalf of the ship-owners as to what the measure would mean, was to be taken as indicating that such statements could not be made. 7584 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The honorable senator is always a political scarecrow. 7584 K1U 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator PULSFORD - I know Senator McGregor's latitude and longitude by this time, and never expect him to look at matters in the right spirit. I hold in my hand a letter from one of the largest shipping companies in Australia, which shows that what I said last week as to what might be the effects of the Bill is true. The writer of the letter says - This measure, as it leaves the Senate, clearly provides for a transfer to the shipowner of risks which, in the past, belonged to the shipper, and is an interference with freedom of contract. In our own case, I would mention that we have agreements still current with shippers from Tasmania, Victoria, and South Australia, and which will remain in force for the next twelve months, in which it is clearly provided that the provisions are subject to the terms and conditions of the bill of lading form of which is attached. Apparently these agreements by me proposed legislation are To be made illegal, and the basis upon which our bargain was built up goes by the board. Really this is too much, and cannot, I think, be ia the interests of the Commonwealth. I dare say you are aware that such risks as were involved in accepting our bills of lading, as provided for in these contracts, are risks which are insurable, and surely under the conditions of our contract the difficulty might have been overcome by shippers taking out a policy. The question now arises what is our legal position, and I believe that we will be within our rights if we decide, under the conditions, and assuming the Bill passes, not to send our steamers to Tasmania or carry out any of the contracts now in existence. 7584 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - What company is that? 7584 K1U 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator PULSFORD - I do not know that I am called upon to give the name of the writer, but he is the representative of one of the leading companies. 7584 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - Can a letter be read in the Senate without the name of the writer being quoted ? 7584 K1U 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator PULSFORD - If honorable senators are anxious about the point I may state that the writer is Mr. D. Anderson, general manager in Australia for the Orient line of steamers. It is dated Sydney, 28th November. We have heard it stated to-day that there are only two or three shippers in Tasmania, and that these shippers represent the aggregate of the fruit exporters. Every one knows that last year these large shippers dropped many thousands of pounds. I believe it has been stated that ^50,000 was lost during the season. That furnishes another reason why we ought not to do anything which will prevent the possibility of the shippers sending freight to the steamers in accordance with their existing contracts. A good case has been made out as to the desirability of reconsidering the position when the Bill reaches the other Chamber, and I trust that the Government will accept any alterations which will tend to preserve to the trade all the contracts which have been entered into, while at the same time carrying out the objects of the Bill, which are in themselves very desirable, and which will, I think, be in the long run in the interests both of shippers and ship-owners. 7585 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - It strikes me that there is a considerable difference of opinion with regard to this measure now as compared with the attitude of some honorable senators when the second- reading was under consideration. 7585 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Matters were being rushed then. 7585 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - The grievance which it is proposed to remedy by means of the Bill is one which has been complained of for years past. When an attempt is made to remedy it honorable senators turn round and say, " Do not let us act in a hurry." It is not often we hear members of the party to which I belong objecting to hasty legislation. Our general com'-i plaints against Governments are that they will not legislate hastily enough in the interests of the people. For years we have been endeavouring to induce Governments to legislate in certain directions, and our trouble has been that we have not been able to induce them to move. When the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill was before us, Senator Guthrie was particularly desirous that certain clauses which formed part of the Navigation Bill should be included in the measure. 7585 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Why did the Government resist that proposal ? 7585 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - Some of us gave the honorable senator every assistance we could, and were anxious that the Government should insert the clauses in the Conciliation, and Arbitration Bill. What 'We were anxious to do in that case it is just as right that we should do in the case under consideration. It cannot be said that the subject is a new one, because it has been before the public for years past. The difficulty has been to provide effective legislation. Senator Dobson seems to have reversed his attitude entirely. I should like to quote from Hansard the remarks which he made upon the motion for the second reading of this Bill. He said, as reported on page 7299 - I believe that the fruit-growers of Tasmania are watching the progress of this Bill with a very great deal of interest, and that they would like me to thank the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General for the promptness with which effect has been given to the promise of the Prime Minister to deal with this matter at once. Something seems to have happened since the second reading, and1 we wish to know what that something is. The honorable senator who represents .the fruit-growers, thanked the Attorney-General and the Prime Minister, for giving effect to the representations made to them, and expressed the opinion that the Bill was in the interest of the producers. And now he makes a special request that Tasmania, at least, shall be exempt from the legislation for twelve months., 7585 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Not Tasmania, but existing contracts. 7585 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - The honorable senator knew when the Bill was read a second time that it would apply to existing contracts, and if it is a good Bill for the fruit-growers for the year after next, it is equally good for them this year. 7585 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - If the Attorney-General does me justice when he speaks, he will tell honorable senators that I had this clause drawn up days ago, and urged him to accept it. 7585 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - AH I know is, that the honorable senator never submitted the clause when the Bill was in Committee. 7585 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - I shall know better next time. I could not make other people aware of the facts, and some honorable senators are now grossly ignorant of the whole business. 7585 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - All this is the effect of hasty legislation. 7585 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - I do not think it is hasty legislation, because a Bill of this kind has been desired for years. I have a note of a request made to me by shippers and consignees, when I was returned to Parliament, to see if something could not be done to afford protection in this direction. The question now seems to be narrowed down to the contention that the Tasmanian growers are the only persons interested in the Bill ; but as a matter of fact, every one engaged in the production of perishable goods, with the object of finding outside markets, is equally interested. If the Bill be altered in the way suggested, what sort of position would Senator Givens,, myself, and others be in, when we not only supported the Bill, but asked that its provisions should be extended, because we recognised its beneficial effects? 7586 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - And very justly asked, too. 7586 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - If the Bill was good then, it is good now,, and I am surprised after the Bill has been read a second time and considered in Committee, that honorable senators should be asked to reverse their decision, and either exempt Tasmania, or reject the measure. That is not the way in which I understand legislation is generally conducted. I take it, that honorable senators make themselves acquainted with the objects of Bills when they are before the Chamber; and it is of no use now attempting to reverse our decision, simply because another measure happens to be under the consideration of a Royal Commission. -I understand that if it is found that this matter can be dealt with better in the Navigation Bill, clauses will be introduced into that measure, and the Bill we are now passing will become a dead letter. Our object is to give such assistance as we can to people who have suffered through those one-sided agreements in the past, and I hope the third reading will be agreed to. 7586 KLZ New South Wales 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - I do not think that Senator Turley is correct in assuming that there is a desire on the part of any honorable senator that the Senate should reverse the legislation of last week. I understand the request to be that existing contracts shall be respected - that if contracts have been entered into for the carriage of fruit during the coming season the present conditions shall, under those contracts, be allowed, to prevail. 7586 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - -This Bill is introduced only because existing contracts are immoral. 7586 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - It cannot be said that the contracts are immoral, though they might be described as unfair. 7586 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - If the contracts permit of thieving without punishment they cannot be very moral. 7586 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- There is no question that bills of lading of late years have been most unfair towards the shippers, and I daresay that in many instances, as Senator Trenwith has interjected, they have rather encouraged than prevented pilfering. It is the duty of the shipping companies to observe every care in order to protect the goods which are handed to them for transport. We should not allow any incentive to the shipping companies to relax the care and consideration which should be given to goods belonging to other people. I do not think, however, that this debate on the third reading has been amiss, for although no attempt is being made to recommit the measure for the purpose of considering the proposal suggested by Senator Dobson, the debate will give the other Chamber an idea of the feeling on the part of honorable 'senators. As to the complaint about hasty legislation, I am, like other honorable senators, aware that some amendment of the law has been a pressing matter for years past. The different Chambers of Commerce have taken up the question from time to time, and have always been anxious that something should be done. The complaint on the present occasion is that the Bill was read a first time on Wednesday, and a second time on Thursday, and passed through its Committee stage on Friday last. Honorable senators may talk about the question having been before the public for years, but it. is to be deprecated that legislation should be pushed through at such a speed. I can sympathize with those honorable senators, who, last week, were in Tasmania, not for their own convenience, but on public business, and who had no opportunity to take part in the debate. It is desirable, when we are dealing with such legislation, that the people interested, and the public generally, should have full notice, so that they may make whatever representations they think fit. Had it been proposed to ask for a recommittal of the Bill for the purpose of inserting such a clause as that indicated by Senator Dobson and others, I should have been prepared to support that, course. 7586 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - I do not feel sorry that this debate has taken place, because I confess that it has been the means of placing before me some views which, I think, I had not fully considered last week. I have been much influenced by the earnest speech delivered by Senator Mulcahy, who has just returned from the southern part of Tasmania, which is a centre for a large number of shippers of fruit. I could not help noticing, however, that Senator Mulcahy did not tell us that he had heard anything from the small shippers in favour of the exemption of existing contracts. As a representative of a State which is largely concerned in the shipment of perishable produce, it is my earnest desire to see that no obstacles are placed in the way of those small shippers. The only representations as to the undesirability of haste are those made by Senator Mulcahy, Senator Dobson, Senator Macfarlane, and the members of the Royal Commission on the Navigation Bill. 7587 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Oh, no ! 7587 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Does Senator O' Keefe not understand that the firms which have been mentioned allot out the space to the small growers - that those two firms contract for the whole of the space? 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - I shall take it that those two firms conduct 85 per cent, of the shipping for the fruit-growers of Tasmania. That may seem like a monopoly, but if the small growers are content to have their business done in that way, I do not see that we have any reason to complain. 7587 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - All that the two firms do is to give a guarantee to the shipping companies that the space will be filled. 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - I realize that those two firms may have a monopoly, but if the growers are satisfied, why should we grumble ? 7587 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Those firms have not a monopoly in the sense indicated by the honorable senator. 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - I am disposed to pay considerable attention to the representations made by the two firms, although it strikes me as very strange that there has been no similar representations from any other part of the Commonwealth. 7587 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Oh, yes. 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - Nothing has been said by the representatives of other parts of the Commonwealth to the effect that this legislation is regarded as too hurried. 7587 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - On the contrary, there has been a large deputation from the other States in favour of the Bill. 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - We are legislating for the whole of the Commonwealth, and while there can be no desire to do the slightest injustice to the fruit-growers of Tasmania, there is, of course, a similar desire in respect to the shippers and producers of other States. While we do not want to do any injury to the producers, who wish existing contracts to stand, we are in the difficulty that we have had' no representations from any other part of the Commonwealth except the southern part of Tasmania. 7587 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Does the honorable senator not see that the ships have to go to Hobart for fruit and nothing else, and that the space is all arranged for now? 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - Does Senator Dobson not see the justice of Senator Turley's contention, that in other parts of Australia there are large numbers of shippers of perishable produce who are crying out for this legislation? 7587 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - My suggestion would not stop legislation, but would merely save existing contracts. 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - If the Government think it desirable to exempt existing contracts, an opportunity will be afforded when the Bill is being dealt with by another branch of the Legislature. 7587 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - But contracts may be arranged for four or five years hence. 7587 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Why should we delegate any of our power to another place? 7587 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - It will probably be a week or more before this Bill is dealt with in the other Chamber. In the meantime, this discussion will be made known all over Australia, and shippers and shipowners will have an opportunity to make whatever representations they please to the Government. If no representations be made in that time, then I think we shall be able 1o conclude that 99 per cent, of the shippers are satisfied with the proposed legislation. Practically the whole of the shippers of perishable produce seem satisfied with this legislation. What we have done will be known to-morrow over the whole of Australia, and there will be ample lime for those who object to this legislation to enter their protest against it. I have no desire that the producer shall be placed in such a position that he will have to say with respect to any of our legislation, " Save ma from my friends," on the ground that while we intend to improve his condition we are doing something which will injure it. But it does strike me as peculiar that the only objection to this Bill, on the ground that its consideration has been hasty, has come from but two or three people. If the objection raised is, a sound one, it can be emphasized before the measure is finally dealt with in another place. Objections to it may be urged from various parts of Australia, and we shall then perhaps know better where we are than we do to-day. 7588 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - The passage of this Bill through the Senate up to the present moment has been so smooth that honorable senators must be somewhat astonished at the troubled reception given to its third reading. 7588 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - We have had but a series of congratulations up to now. 7588 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - As Senator Turley has said, up to the present moment we have been congratulating each other on the fact that we were engaged in a business of the most excellent character, that we were placing shippers of goods in a position hitherto denied them by shipping companies, and were doing neither more nor less than bare justice. We now have objections to what we have done urged from various quarters. First of all, we have the members of the Navigation Commission finding fault with us because we have interfered with this, matter while it has been under their consideration. I admit at once that in ordinary circumstances, whilst any subject is being investigated by a Royal Commission,, it is exceedingly undesirable that it. should be dealt with by way of legislative enactment. But in this particular instance we are dealing with what for years has been a crying evil, urgently demanding reform. The people engaged in the industry concerned have been clamorous for the reform provided by this measure. The Prime Minister was waited on by a deputation in regard to the matter, and an agitation more or less active has been going on for some considerable time to bring about this reform. In the circumstances, the Senate naturally came to the conclusion that it was right and proper that relief should be given to the parties complaining, and that action should be taken accordingly. I am quite certain that no member of the Senate desires to in any way slight the members of the Navigation Commission. I do not think there has been any occasion for the heat displayed by Senators Guthrie and de Largie this afternoon. No member of the Senate has ever dreamt of doing anything derogatory to the dignity or the usefulness of the Commission. This Bill might not be all that Senator Guthrie desires, but the Government and the Senate consider that it will be a very long step in a particular direction. 7588 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - It is on 'the right track. 7588 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - It is on the right track, and members of the Navigation Commission might well acquit the Senate of any intention to take this business out of their hands. 7588 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - We do not blame the Senate; we blame the Government. 7588 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - The Government bring forward a measure, but as it is subjected to review by the members of the Senate, whatever responsibility exists for its passing must be shared by the Senate as well as by the members of . the Government. I desire to make a few remarks on the attitude now taken up by several honorable senators representing Tasmania. We did not hear a word about the objections which they have now urged on the second reading of the Bill. On the contrary, even Senator Dobson was enthusiastic in his support of the measure. As usual, the honorable and learned senator has turned a somersault within a very few days, and what he has blessed he now proceeds to ban. Why this change of front? I can see no other reason for it than that the shipping companies have been doing a little business in the meantime. They have been telling shippers, "You are very anxious to compel us to do certain things, but if you insist upon this measure being passed into law, and administered as you appear to desire, we shall not send our ships here, or we shall raise freights to such an extent that your shipments will be unprofitable." We have here the old thing to contend with. It does not matter in what' direction we turn our steps to effect reform, we have the one inevitable lion in the path to strangle, and; that lion is private enterprise and vested interests. The shipping companies have for such a lengthened period been accustomed to look upon shippers as 'their lawful victims that now when we proceed to snatch them from their greedy grasp they immediately resent the action taken. The shippers some time ago were exceedingly anxious to be saved from the shipping companies. They said. " Deliver us from these extortioners." That is in plain English what they meant. But now, when they find that the shipping companies have put their hoofs down, they say, " Leave it alone; we are between the devil and the deep blue sea, and we do not know which way to turn." 7589 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - That is not the general attitude. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - So far as I could gather from the speeches delivered by Senators Mulcahy and Macfarlane, there is in Tasmania a general fear on the part of shippers that they will be placed at a decided disadvantage. 7589 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - I have not had a word with or from one of them on the subject. 7589 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - But with commission agents ? 7589 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - Not even with commission agents ; I understand the conditions myself. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - Senator Pulsford has read a letter from a shipping agent, I presume, informing shippers that if this measure is passed into law it will be so much the worse for them. I have no doubt that an attempt will be made to bring pressure to bear upon honorable members in another place, but, so far as we are concerned in this Senate, we should strive for justice. In passing this measure we are doing that. In this Bill we merely say to the shipping companies, "You shall take up the ordinary burden of a person who contracts to do a certain, thing." 7589 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - With goods that will not keep. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - Goods that will not keep cannot be carried to Great Britain. It is well known that apples reach Great Britain in good condition, in middling condition, and in very bad condition. 7589 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - This Bill provides that the ship-owners shall do the best they can with the machinery they have, whether that machinery is sufficient for the purpose or not. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - It is well known that with ordinary care in gathering fruit, in packing it before shipment, and in keeping the refrigerating chambers in which it is stored at a uniform and proper temperature during transit, it can be carried safely to Great Britain. But hitherto the shipping companies have had no responsibility whatever for its safe carriage. 7589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Not even for gross carelessness. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - I have not the slightest doubt that in many cases there has been gross carelessness in "the transport of produce. It appears to me that in considering this question, we have to think of very much more than merely the conditions existing at the present moment. Australia has, to depend, and will have to depend for a very long time indeed, for a market for her perishable products on Great Britain and Europe. It is, therefore, absolutely necessary, if a profitable trade is to be carried on between Australia and Great Britain or -Europe, that proper shipping facilities shall be afforded for Australian produce. We desire to send oranges and all kinds of fruit from1 Queensland to Great Britain, Europe, and America, if possible. We must discover the best means of transport, but if the shipping companies are to be permitted to continue their present policy of no responsibility, we shall never be able to find out the best way of carrying our perishable produce oversea. If, however, we compel them to use every means known to science, the problem will very soon be solved. I do not suppose that any Bill would do what Senator Guthrie wishes. I do not think that the Navigation Bill, or the report of the Royal Commission, would solve the problem. The problem must be solved by experiment. This Bill compels the shipping companies to accept a certain responsibility, and tHat provision will' induce them,. I believe, to make experiments as to what tare the best and safest methods of carrying perishable produce to Great Britain. From that point of view, it is a most excellent measure, and one which ought to have been placed on the statute-book years ago. 7589 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - -Why not extend its provisions to live cattle? 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - I am not prepared to give an answer to the question. I understand that the Bill has been considered by experts in the business, and I am quite prepared to take their verdict on the subject. If the honorable senator, or the members of the Navigation Commission, can prove to me that it is necessary to bring live stock under the operation of this or a similar Bill, I shall be very glad to do so. But up to the present, so far as I have heard, the reasons are all to . the contrary. 7589 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - There have been big losses there. 7589 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - Yes, and I suppose that there will be big losses in the future. We can only reach an approximate perfection in these matters by constant and careful experiments. The Bill compels shipping companies to experiment. Hitherto they have had no responsibility ; they simply accepted the goods at shippers risks. We wish to do away with that uncertain and unsatisfactory state of affairs, and make shipping companies responsible for the goods they carry. 7590 K7V South Australia Free Trade Attorney-General 1 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON . - I do not think that this debate is to be regretted. I am one of those who think that on an important subject there cannot be - within reasonable limits as to time - too much discussion. We are all indebted to the honorable senators who have thrown fresh light on either the scope of the Bill or on the objects which we all have in view. I take it that my honorable friends who have delivered criticism which would have been more appropriate on the second reading, but which is none the less welcome now, feel that this is a subject for redress. I do not think that that can be doubted for a moment. Provisions relating to bills of lading were embodied in the Navigation Bill which is now under the consideration of a Royal Commission. The matter has been the subject of pressure on all hands for a considerable time. It has been a running sore for a very long period. It has been the subject of strong representations by representative fruit-growers and shippers from all parts of Australia, including Tasmania, to the Prime Minister, particularly lately. It has been the subject of resolutions passed at a conference of shippers held in Adelaide, passages of which I read when moving the second reading of the Bill. There is a consensus of opinion that this practice has gone on too long, and that it is high time that it was changed. At the same time I am in a little difficulty, because I do not know where my honorable friends are. There is no motion to recommit the Bill ; there is no distinct intimation that the third reading is to be opposed, and that a measure which is clamoured for is to be thrown out. I believe that Senators Guthrie and de Largie have no intention of opposing the third reading. 7590 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I am going to call for a division. 7590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Why? Is it because the Senate has had the temerity to do its part towards legislating in the absence of the report from the Navigation Commission? Is it because of any feeling on the part of its members that they have been in any way overlooked or disregarded ? 7590 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I mentioned a reason. SenatorSir JOSIAH SYMON. -I am going over them all. 7590 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - That is one of the reasons. 7590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If it is a subject for apology, I join with Senator McGregor in expressing my extreme regret if in any way we have wounded the feelings of the members of the Navigation Commission. 7590 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - It is not a question of wounded feelings. 7590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not say that because of the remarks which have been made this afternoon, but because it is a mere repetition of what I said in my second-reading speech, in which I frankly acknowledged the great services of the Commission, and referred to the provisions relating to coastal trade which Senator Guthrie wished to introduce into the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. 1 said that those clauses might be dealt with separately, just as we are dealing with this urgent question separately. I said - this matter has been separated from the Navigation Bill because of the urgency of it. All of us will be greatly indebted to the report of the Navigation Commission, and I am sure that we should be glad to reconsider even the matter, it in the interval any experience could be gained which would enable us to make the Bill more effective. As Senator Givens has said, we can only proceed step by step. Even the Senate is not composed of heaven-born statesmen, so that our legislation is not perfect. I thoroughly agree with my honorable friends in the justice of the provision which they sought to introduce. I begged them not to press the amendment to apply the Bill to all ports at the moment, and they yielded on that occasion. I read that extract because I' acknowledged the services of the Royal Commission. I recognised that we were taking this subject out of the Navigation Bill for the moment, not in any way to exclude the benefit of whatever information it could afford us, with a view to make this legislation more effective, and, if you like, just, or with any desire to jump the claim of- that body, or anybody else. In the next place, is the third reading to be opposed because some expressions have been used about hasty legislation? 7591 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - One week. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend is mistaken. It is one fortnight. Is this Bill to be rejected on the third reading because it is hasty legislation? What I understand by that term is legislation so confused that it would be impossible of interpretation. 7591 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Why did not the Government introduce this as their policy ? 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - In the first place, it was embodied in the Navigation Bill, and in the second place, pressure was put on the Government recently in view of the approaching perishable product season, and it was imperative that it should be dealt with. 7591 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Evidently the pressure is easing off. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No. It is not that the pressure is easing off, but that there is another pressure coming in, to which I do not think anybody ought at the moment to pay the least attention. On the 1 6th November I moved for leave to introduce the Bill. On the 17th I presented the Bill, and on the 23rd I moved the second reading. 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - There was not a copy of the Bill available until last Tuesday. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Copies were available long before that date. On the 23rd November, at the second reading stage, the Bill was exhaustively debated, and on the 24th it was discussed in Committee in a very exhaustive fashion, and the consideration of the report was set down for the 25th. A Bill of originally three or four clauses has occupied the Senate for a fortnight. Therefore, on the ground of haste, there can be no cause of complaint. Is it hasty, in the sense that we are dealing with a subject which ought not to be dealt with? Every speaker has declared the exemptions in bills of lading to be unfair. Senator Mulcahy admits that they are unfair, but he wishes us to wait before the unfairness is remedied until the shipowners are convinced. We shall have to wait a very long time before that happens. Senator Gould described the exemption as not only unfair, but unjust, and other honorable senators used the same expression. Here was an abuse existing, by the concurrent testimony of every honorable senator, and were we to stand by and allow that abuse to be perpetuated? I never heard of such a suggestion in my life. If it is an abuse we should be worthy to be stigmatized as being regardless of the interests of the people of this country if we did not take steps to remedy it. 7591 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - There are other largeabuses. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Let us deal with the little ones to begin with. The question is - is it right, is it wise, to try to remedy this abuse? It is admitted that there is an abuse. We are trying to remedy it. Every one admits that the method proposed is a right one, with the exception of my honorable friend Senator de Largie. He says that he prefers the provisions of the Navigation Bill. My honorable friend Senator Mulcahy. says that the provisions of the Navigation Bill are more numerous and more comprehensive. He did not point out in what respect they were to be preferred. But as a matter of fact the provisions of the Navigation Bill are not more comprehensive, and they are not more numerous. What is more, they are nothing like so effective. 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - They impose a condition that the ship shall be well equipped. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Senator Guthrie says that the ship-owners very much prefer the provisions of the Navigation Bill. 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - No, I said that the Tasmanian shippers of fruit prefer them. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - All I can say is that I do not know who the shipper of fruit in Tasmania can be who prefers the Navigation Bill provisions to this Bill. 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The biggest shipper. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Who is he? 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Jones. 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - He is a freight-broker - a gentleman who monopolizes, I am informed, 75 or 80 per cent. of the freight, and who doles it out to the shippers as a middleman. 7591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - No, he does not. He gets 85 per cent. on his own account. 7591 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - Does he grow 85 per cent. of the fruit? 7591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - He does not grow any of it. He is not a grower at all. My honorable friend's statement must be made on the testimony of Jones. 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - It was the firm of H. Jones and Company that made the losses last year. 7592 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - How did the losses occur? Through bad legislation. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - What provisions do the ship-owners prefer? 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - We have not asked them. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If all the ship-owners in Australia came forward, and asked that this provision exempting them from liability for their own gross carelessness should not be struck out of their bills of lading, I would not be disposed to pay much attention to it. I say that it is a monstrous injustice that the provisions should ever have been in .the bills of lading. I do not care whether they refer to perishable products or not ; no man should be permitted to stipulate that he shall not be liable for his own carelessness. I should not have been surprised if the ship-owners had said that they preferred the provisions of the Navigation Bill as it stands, because at the end there is a loop-hole for them, and the shipper would never know where he was j because, under the Navigation Bill clauses, the provisions of a contract are only to be null and void if the Court before which any question in relation to them is tried, decides that they are not just and reasonable. Every shipper who put his goods on board would not only have to fight the question of the negligence or careless- ' ness of the carrier, but would also have to fight the preliminary question of whether the conditions were just and reasonable. I say that they are not just and reasonable, j 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - There is such a provision in this Bill. too. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No, we have struck it out, because it simply raises another wall of litigation over which the small shipper of goods had to jump before, he got justice. Has my honorable friend read the Bill as amended? 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Yes. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then he knows that not only do we declare the provisions null and void, as is done by the Navigation Bill, but also, owing to the suggestions made in the course of the very interesting and instructive debate, we have added provisions which will make it absolutely impossible, in my judgment - I hope I am not mistaken - for any ship-owner to escape from his obligation to exclude these exemptions from his bills of lading. Every shipper, even the most ignorant shipper, will know that when he gets his bill of lading, that liability for ordinary care is incurred by the ship-owner, that there can be no exemption, and that if he attempts to put in an exemption of that kind, he will be liable to a penalty. 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The Bill does not provide for the very first thing that is necessary - the equipment of the ship. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is a question of sea-worthiness which must be dealt with in a Navigation Bill. We are , dealing with questions affecting good stowage, and that care and attention which ought to be observed. That end will, we hope, be achieved by leaving upon the shipowner the liability which every man ought to be under who enters into a contract of this description, of being responsible for due care. Is my honorable friend, Senator Guthrie, going to vote against this Bill as being less effective than the Navigation Bill in that respect ? I say that it is more effective. 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I say that it is not. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It also is more comprehensive. Does the Navigation Bill impose a penalty? 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - It mav. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - So that we are that much to the good. Is my honorable friend aware that in the case of the German ships there is no exemption from liability, but that a shipper must go to> Germany to have his case tried ? Ought we not to put a clause in the Bill to prevent that ? Is not that' some good achieved ? 7592 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Trie Navigation Commission is taking evidence upon that point. 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We are legislating without the evidence. 7592 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - Why did the Government appoint a Royal Commission? 7592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It was appointed to inquire into the subject of navigation, but this is a more immediate matter. I was greatly cheered and encouraged by the testimony which my honorable friend, Senator Turley.- read from Senator Dobson's speech on the second" reading. But those remarks do not in any way disentitle him from pressing, forward" for consideration the points to which he objects, and which, I admit, require some examination. When Senator Turley was speaking, Senator Dobson interjected that while the Bill was going through Committee he had shown me an amendment dealing with the subject, and that I pointed out some considerations which would prevent me from supporting it or from assisting him in any way. I still entertain the same view. Senator Dobson did not move the amendment then, and I was under the impression that the amendment moved by Senator Pulsford, with a view of deferring the operation of the Bill until February, was rather put forward in substitution for the suggestion of Senator Dobson. But he has explained that that is not so. I hold the same view as I did before. I think the Bill is excellent as it stands. But if an amendment is moved in another place, of course due consideration will be given to it. I can say no more than that. If my honorable and learned friend had sought to move his amendment in the Senate I should have been reluctantly obliged to oppose it for the same reasons as were given by Senator Playford. But, in addition to that, I am not satisfied that the two firms who act for the fruit-growers in Tasmania, and who represent the interest of the middlemen 7593 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - That is not correct. 7593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have an assurance that they are not fruitgrowers, but I will not press that argument. A good deal of investigation would be necessary before I could agree to an exemption of that kind in respect of alleged vested interests. A quotation Was made by Senator Pulsford from a letter, the writer of which he was good enough to mention. The author of the letter is the representative in Australia of a very great shipping company - the Orient Steam Navigation Company. We have there a suggestion that if this Bill is passed, his company will probably - " probably " is the expression - take into consideration the advisability or otherwise of calling at Hobart. I do not attach any importance to that statement for this reason : It has been done before ; it may be done again,, and by the same gentleman. That gentleman, for some reason, seems to have a fancy for making threats, or giving guarded hints of this kind, when he does not get his own way. I saw in the newspapers the other day that a similar hint was thrown out as to the Orient steamers not calling at Adelaide if they did not get whatever price they chose to ask in respect of carriage of mails. Although I wish it to be clearly understood that we must do justice to everybody - even to vested interests - still, we must scrutinize the source from which these representations come. 7593 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - It has been arranged that seventeen steamers are to call at Hobart. 7593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Why then does Mr. Anderson say that the Orient steamers will not call ? 7593 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - The Hobart Mercury announces what has been arranged - that a quarter of a million of cases are to go home, and that seventeen steamers are to call. 7593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then what becomes of Mr. Anderson's suggestion that if we will not do as he wishes, the steamers will not call? I can only say that my honorable and learned friend will have every consideration given to his suggestion in another place, and all possible light will be thrown upon it. At present I am not disposed to think that any injustice will be done if the Bill remains as at present. 7593 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - The honorable and learned senator is short-sighted. 7593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am sure my honorable and learned friend will sympathize with me in the reluctance I feel not to acquiesce in his wishes. But I do not acquiesce, because I believe the Bill will remedy an acknowledged evil, and do no injustice to any one. Question - That the Bill be now read a third time - put. The Senate divided. 28 Baker, Sir R. C. Best, R. W. Croft, J. W. Dobson, H. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. Fraser, S. Givens, T. Gould, A. J. Gray, J. P. Henderson, G. Higgs, W. G. Matheson, A. P. McGregor, G. Neild, J. C. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Smith, M. S. C. Stewart, J. C. Story, W. H. Styles, J. Symon, Sir J. H. Trenwith, W. A. Turley, H. Walker, J. T. Zeal, Sir W. A. Clemons, T. S. (Teller) 5 Dawson, A. de Largie, H. Macfarlane, J. Mulcahy, E. Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Majority ... ... ... 23 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. 7594 bill 7594 Motion (by Senator Sir Josiah Symon) proposed - That the Bill be now read a third time. 7594 KLZ New South Wales 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - I move - That the Bill be recommitted for the reconsideration of clauses 72 to 77 both inclusive. It will be remembered that last week I made an attempt to have these clauses recommitted. Exception was taken to the proposal by some honorable senators, who regarded it as an endeavour to take advantage of their possible numerical weakness at the moment. However, I showed there was no intention on my part to take any advantage of that Chamber, and I gave notice that I would, either on the motion for the adoption of the report, or on the third reading, resubmit my proposal. Clauses 72 to 77 deal with trade union marks, and a principle is thus introduced which is open to grave objection, not only on the part of certain members of this Chamber, but also on the part of a large section of the public outside. 7594 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - What section? 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- Possibly all the general public except a few men who are banded together in a desire to have things all their own way. Senator Pearce presented- a petition this afternoon, bearing 200 or 300 signatures, in favour of these clauses. 7594 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - But those names represent 50,000 or 60,000 people. 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - There were 200 or 300 signatures, and the petition comes from one particular section. I am not surprised that the petition should have been presented, because it only shows how well the trade unionists are sticking to these provisions to which I am taking exception. 7594 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - That petition is only from the one State of New South Wales. 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- The provisions to which I refer were not contained in the Bill submitted by the Government, but were inserted1 in Committee by a majority of honorable senators. 7594 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - And there was every right to insert them. 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD D- That is so, and I have no quarrel with honorable senators on that score. But it is undesirable that in such a Bill there should be legislation of this character. A trade mark is not intended to indicate the class of labour employed in producing an article, but simply to indicate a certain class of goods - the good's of a certain manufacturer, or composed of certain ingredients, and so forth. From that point of view, a trade mark is an absolutely legitimate way of dealing with goods manufactured by a particular individual. But in the clauses 72 to 77 an attempt is made to recognise certain trade unions, who will be enabled to register a trade mark, which they may, according to their own 'sweet will, affix or refuse to allow to be affixed to goods offered to the public for sale. A manufacturer may pay union wages and observe union hours and conditions, and yet he will not be able to use this trade mark unless the trade union sees fit to allow him to do so. According to the Bill, it will be perfectly open to trade unions to allow the mark to be used by one .particular firm. I am, in my remarks, always assuming that the manufacturers, who will be allowed to use the union mark, will observe all the conditions which trade unionists demand. But there will be power on the part of the trade unions to refuse to allow the mark to be used by a manufacturer, although he may observe exactly the same conditions as those observed by another manufacturer, who has received permission to use the mark. 7594 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Where does the honorable and learned senator find that provided ? 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- A trade mark becomes the exclusive property of the person or persons who register it, and it may be dealt with as the owner thinks fit. A trade union, for instance, might grant the use of a trade mark to Senator Dawson and refuse it to Senator Gould, although both were manufacturing under exactly the same conditions. 7594 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - And the trade union might be right. 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- If two manufacturers both observe trade union conditions of labour, it would be unfair to allow the trade mark to one and to refuse it to the other. 7594 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - There is no such provision in the Bill. 7594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- But the trade mark becomes the property of the person who sees fit to register, and, as I say, he may dispose of the trade mark as he sees fit. I am not unmindful of the debate which took place when these clauses were previously under consideration. 7595 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The clauses merely give protection against sweating. 7595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I deny that the clauses are a protection against sweating; or, if they are; it may be protection in the case of one firm only. I ask honorable senators to allow the clauses to be so amended that any person who chooses to manufacture under union conditions may be entitled to place the trade union label on his goods. 7595 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The honorable and learned senator does not want to amend the clauses, but to throw them out altogether. 7595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I do want to throw the clauses out, but if honorable senators are not prepared to take that course, I ask them to consent to the amendment I suggest. Should honorable senators agree to the amendment, a great deal of my objection to the clauses will be removed. It is unfair to take advantage of an opportunity to magnify trade unions at the" expense of other persons in the community. That is my first and most serious objection. Next, I object to giving any section of the community the right to a trade mark which may be farmed out to one man and refused to another, although both may be observing exactly the same conditions of labour. I do not desire to labour the matter, but merely to have a short debate and a division, in order to ascertain whether there is still a majority prepared to insist on provisions which I consider to be utterly improper in a Bill of this character. 7595 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - I rise to a point of order. I desire to know whether the motion now submitted can be accepted by you, Mr. President? On the 23rd instant, the Attorney-General moved that the Bill should be recommitted for the further consideration of a new clause, and Senator Gould moved an amendment that the recommittal should also involve the reconsideration of clauses 72 to 77 inclusive. Senator Gould is now practically submitting that amendment as a motion. 7595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - No, as an amendment. 7595 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - It is a motion, but it does not make any difference to the point of order whether it is a motion or an amendment. 7595 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - At any rate, it is a question before us. Standing order 126 is as follows : - No question or amendment shall be proposed which is the same in substance as any question or amendment which, during the same session, has been resolved in the affirmative or negative, unless the order, resolution, or vote on such question or amendment has been rescinded. A vote was taken on Senator Gould's amendment, and passed in the negative, so that the motion now before us has already been negatived by the Senate. Standing order 202 is as follows : - When the Bill shall have been fully considered the question shall be put, '"That this Bill (or this Bill, as amended) be reported," which, being agreed to, the Chairman shall leave the chair and report the Bill forthwith ; arid upon such motion that the Bill be reported the reconsideration of any clause or clauses may be moved as an amendment. That was done by the honorable and learned senator. It is further provided by standing order 204 that - If a Bill be reported with amendments, a future day shall be appointed for taking the report into consideration and moving its adoption, and the Bill, as reported, shall, in the meantime, be printed ; but if no amendments have been made the report may be at once adopted. On the occasion referred to, the Attorney-General moved an amendment, which was adopted, and therefore the report stage was fixed for a later day. Standing order 205 says - On the motion for the adoption of the report, the Bill may, on motion, be recommitted, either in whole or in part; in which case, if amendments be made, and the Bill be reported, a subsequent day shall be fixed for taking the report into consideration and moving its adoption, and the Bill, as reported with the amendments, shall, in the meantime, be printed ; but if no amendments have been made the report may be at once adopted. That does not meet the present case. It comes under standing order 207, which provides - On the Order of the Day for the third reading being read by the Clerk, and before the motion is carried - " That this Bill be now read a third time" - the Bill may, on motion, be recommitted, either in whole or in part; in which case, if amendments be made, a subsequent day shall be appointed for the consideration of the report. My contention is that while standing order 207 gives an opportunity for the recommittal of a Bill in whole or in part, it is governed by standing order 202. That is to say, that if the question has been decided by the Senate dealing with the Bill or some portion of the Bill, under standing order 202, an honorable senator is not given three chances - he cannot at each of these stages move the same question. Otherwise it would be competent for any honorable senator to move the same question now, and again move the same question at a later stage, though it should be negatived now. There would thus be no finality. I therefore put the point whether the motion is in order in asking for what has already been negatived by the Senate. 7596 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - The question 1 am asked to decide is whether the motion now made by -Senator Gould is in substance the same as a motion which has already been negatived. That depends entirely on th.2 construction of standing order 126, which says - No question or amendment shall be proposed which is the same in substance as any question or amendment which during the same session has been resolved in the affirmative or negative - I direct the attention of the Senate to the use of the words " affirmative or negative " - unless the order, resolution, or vote on such question or amendment has been rescinded. So that if this motion to recommit the Bill or part of the Bill is the same, within the meaning of that standing order, as a former motion to recommit - and if that standing order applies to procedure on Bills - then of course Senator Gould cannot move his motion. But I do not think it does. It must be recollected that this is a question of procedure, on a Bill, and the motion, if carried, commits the Senate to nothing. It simply gives the Committee of the Whole an opportunity to reconsider a part of the Bill. In passing Bills, I think that the greatest latitude ought to be permitted for consideration and reconsideration. A Bill is in a different category altogether from a motion. When a Bill has been agreed to by both Houses, and assented to by the Governor-General, it becomes a law, and therefore the widest latitude has always been given for the reconsideration of Bills, or parts of Bills. If Senator Pearce is right in his contention a Bill could not be recommitted more than once, because if the question, " That the Bill be recommitted," is once resolved in the affirmative, and if a future motion to the same effect, at a different stage of the Bill, is the same, we should be twice resolving in the affirmative the same question. 7596 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Senator Pearce does not contend that a Bill cannot be recommitted a second time. 7596 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - If we can twice move that the whole Bill be recommitted - which allows the Committee of the Whole to reconsider every portion of the Bill - then, a fortiori we can move twice that part of a Bill be recommitted, because that will only allow the Committee of the Whole to twice reconsider part of the Bill. We have often recommitted Bills several times. 1 find it laid down in May, at page 469 - and our standing order in this respect is the same as the House of Commons standing order - that, A Bill may be recommitted as often as the House thinks fit. 7596 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - A Bill may be, certainly. 7596 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - If we can recommit the whole of a Bill, we can recommit half the Bill- Bills have been recommitted once or twice, and even six and seven times. The proceedings on the report of a recommitted Bill are similar to those already explained ; and on report, the Bill, as amended, is taken into consideration forthwith, and is read the third time. In another quotation from May, which I shall read, it is shown that the " same question " does not apply to procedure on Bills. At page 291 of May I find this statement - In passing Bills a greater freedom is admitted in proposing questions, as the object of different stages is to afford the opportunity of reconsideration; and an entire Bill may be regarded as one question, which is not decided until it has passed. Upon this principle it is laid down by Hatsell, and is constantly exemplified - " That in every stage of the Bill every part of the Bill is open to amendment, either for insertion or omission, whether the same amendment has been in a former stage accepted or rejected." It seems to me that it would most improperly tie the hands of the Senate if motions of this character were not allowed to be put. For instance, at the very last moment, it might be found that a Bill required some amendment, and it might be that it required amendment in a clause which had been formerly recommitted. If we take, for instance, the clause introduced by the Attorney-General the other day, if the honorable and learned senator finds on reconsideration that that clause requires amendment, he can move that the Bill be recommitted for the reconsideration of that clause. My ruling, therefore, is that standing order 126 does not apply to the procedure on Bills. 7596 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I wish to ask the Senate not to agree to the recommittal of these clauses. Because, as I have already said, they were not sprung on honorable senators, but were agreed to after considerable debate. 7597 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - And after notice of them had been given. 7597 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - Long notice of them had been given, because they were in print for over a week before they were discussed. I ask the Senate not to consent to their recommittal, for the further reason that we can discuss the whole ambit of these clauses on the motion for their recommittal just as effectually as we could in Committee. Referring briefly to what has been said against these clauses, Senator Gould has had to build up an imaginary case in order to find arguments against them. The honorable and learned senator says that unions might effect a monopoly by giving their trade mark to only one manufacturer. In answer to that, I ask honorable senators what object unions could have in securing these labels, if it be not to have them as widely used as possible ? It would be suicidal for them to endeavour to secure a monopoly by limiting their use to one manufacturer. 7597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - The honorable senator will admit that unions do sometimes make very serious mistakes. 7597 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - If they made the mistake which the honorable and learned senator suggests, they would themselves be the chief sufferers. They would suffer so much from such a mistake that they would soon retrace their action. It would be suicidal on their part to attempt to limit the use of their labels to as few firms as possible. 7597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - We are aware that the honorable senator would have objected to a provision being inserted in the Bill requiring a union to allow every manufacturer of the goods to use their label. 7597 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE -It must be one thing or the other; it is either a union label or it is not, and if we are to give a union property in a label, manifestly that union must be permitted, if it pleases, to allow its use only by manufacturers conducting union shops. If we are to provide for a non-union label, we should say so, and let it be applicable to non-union shops. To say that unions must go to the expense of registering a union label, and must then permit its use by persons conducting non-union shops, where there will be no guarantee that union conditions will be observed in the manufacture of goods, is to beg the whole question. The honorable and learned senator endeavoured to make out that unions might have in union labels some instrument of tyranny; but honorable senators are aware that the only power there is behind these labels is the good-will of the public, who are the buyers and consumers of the articles produced. If a union label is to be of any use to a union, the union registering it must secure and retain the good-will of the public. It must be in a position to appeal to the public to buy goods bearing the union label. 7597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - The honorable senator admits that the object is to strengthen the unions, and to enable them to boycott people who do not support unions. 7597 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - Not necessarily. The object is to provide that goods shall be manufactured under proper conditions. We take it that union conditions are proper conditions, and will guarantee to the public that goods bearing a union label have been made by persons working for fair pay and under fair conditions. Honorable senators must be aware that a union label can be of value to the union only if the public look for it, and if members of the public entering a shop say, " We want boots with the union label." If unions attempt to use these labels in a tyrannical fashion, the result will be that the great body of the public who are not unionists will say, " We decline to be parties to these tyrannical measures, and will refrain from buying goods with these union labels on them." In those circumstances, the very fact that a union label is placed on goods, instead of being an inducement would be a deterrent to people to buy them, and the union registering the label would be the greatest sufferer. As a matter of fact, these so-called tyrannical provisions have been in operation in Western Australia for some time.' The Bootmakers' Union in that State has registered a union trade mark, and the Tailors' Union of Kalgoorlie has registered a union label. They have advertised the fact, and have asked the public to buy only goods having their labels on them. In a stronghold of trade unionists like Western Australia, though by far the greater bulk of the goods sold in these particular lines have not these union labels on them, no one has ever yet heard a murmur of any tyranny, or any attempt at tyranny, by the unions in connexion with the use of their labels. The disadvantages of the ordinary trade marks law under which union labels in Western Australia are registered is that no union can register a label in its own name. The label must be registered in the name of some manufacturer, who agrees to give authority to other manufacturers to use it. The union label provisions in this Bill will enable us to do under the law what we are at present doing by subterfuge under the Western Australian law, because they will enable unions to hold a property in their labels, and to sue and be sued in respect of them. Seeing that a somewhat similar provision has been in actual operation in Western Australia for some years without any complaint being made that it has resulted in disadvantage or tyranny, I ask honorable senators to discuss the principle, of these clauses on the motion for the third reading of the Bill. I ask them to reject the motion for recommittal, on the ground that we can still discuss file whole question, and take a vote on the principle; and that on a previous occasion, honorable senators had a full opportunity, after due notice, to discuss the details of the clauses. 7598 KAH New South Wales 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - Senator Dawson has said by interjection that the object of a trade union label is to prevent sweating. 7598 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - It is a protection against sweating. 7598 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - That is not the only object of a trade union label. In my absence, Senator Drake was kind enough, on the nth August, to propose the insertion of a new clause that would have protected purchasers against buying goods produced by sweated labour. I shall read the amendment to show that our honorable friends opposite had some object other than merely to prevent sweating. It reads as follows : - Notwithstanding anything contained in this part, no trade union shall refuse to authorize a manufacturer or employer who adopts the rate of wages and the hours of employment fixed in reference to the trade of such trade union under any law of the Commonwealth or of a State to apply, if he so desires, its union trade mark to the products of the labour of the members thereof employed by him, or to the same kind of products of the labour of any employees not members of such union employed by him. Penalty : £50. The clause was not accepted. Now, if an employer had both trade union men and non-union men, and paid them at exactly the same rate, he would not be at liberty to use the trade union mark, proving that honorable senators opposite had in view some other object than the prevention of sweating. That object, I said, was a political one. They wished to strengthen the hands of trade unions against non-unionists. This Bill being intended for the whole community, and not for a section of it, I shall support Senator Gould if he calls for a division, but my own impression is that he ought to have brought forward his proposition at an earlier stage.. I am persuaded in my own mind that it was not merely to prevent sweating that this part of the Bill was introduced. 7598 JYX Victoria 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY - It is. perfectly true, as Senator Walker says, that objection1 was offered to the amendment moved by Senator Drake on his behalf. No paid organization composed wholly of trade unionists would permit an employer who only partially recognised trade union principles, by employing half trade unionists and half non-unionists, to utilize the labels which had been registered in the interest of trade unions. 7598 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - The object is not merely to prevent sweating? 7598 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY - It would be a half-and-half sort of label, which would deceive the public, because that employer would not be recognising trade union principles. If he did, all his employes would be trade unionists. 7598 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - There is nothing to prevent an employer from doing that now. 7598 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY - No. Unnecessary alarm seems to be sounded by certain honorable senators in regard to the operation of these clauses. One would think from their remarks that this was an entirely new departure. They overlook the fact that in every State to-day a trade organization can register a trade mark in the names of any number of its members ; but the difference between the provisions in this Bill and the law in operation in the different States, is that when a trade mark is registered in the names of certain members of an organization, it becomes wholly their property. And there would probably be very great danger of half-a-dozen men in a union, with a label registered in their name, using influence upon employers. Under the Bill no set of men would have that power, because the label is the property of every member of the trade organization. There is no compulsion about this legislation. There is no desire on the part of any trade union in any State to say to an employer, "You shall do this," or "You shall not do that " ; it is an optional matter. Trade unionists believe that this' legislation is in the best interest of good employers. It is said that it is doing damage in countries where it is in operation. I challenge that statement. A trade union label law has been in operation in the United States for a long period. Church And commercial organizations, municipal and political bodies, conservative, liberal, and labour men, are loud in their praise and advocacy of the principle. It has minimized sweating to a very considerable extent, and if it were doing the harm which is alleged, we should have the information at first hand. But let me assure honorable senators that all the leading American newspapers recognise the trade union label, and trade union conditions, and on all the papers that come to Australia are the trade union labels, clearly demonstrating that the statements made here to-day are incorrect. I hope the Senate will do on this occasion what it did on a previous occasion, after an exhaustive discussion, and with a fairly full attendance, when every consideration -was given to the. objection raised by Senator Gould. I trust that the Bill will not be recommitted, but that the third reading will be carried by a large majority. 7599 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - It is to be regretted that at this stage; after these clauses have been threshed out and run the gauntlet of all criticism, we should find this persistent opposition to a principle which is only fair when we have regard to the nature of this Bill. Apparently, the sense of fairness of some of our political opponents is such that they do not care a fig as to what interests are to be interfered with, so long as a certain interest is "on top " all the while. We have just passed a measure which might very well be termed hasty legislation. Undoubtedly, the Sea Carriage of Goods Bill give's an advantage to a certain interest in the community. It was not opposed by those honorable senators who are opposing this Bill, in which we merely ask that the same privilege shall be extended- to the working men as to manufacturers. Is this opposition the result of the agitation we have heard so much about ? Is it the result of the demand made by the Employers' Federation and the Chambers of Commerce for the rejection of this legislation ? Is the Government so much under the thumb of those institutions that whatever they ask shall be done at once? 7599 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - It is Senator Gould who is asking for this recommittal. 7599 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I hope that Senator Gould will be defeated in .his attempt to prevent the will of the Senate from being carried out. A stranger would think that honorable senators on one side were sitting here in the interest of the Employers' Federation alone. No legislation, will please them unless it bears upon it the mark of the beast. In some parts of the Commonwealth we have seen the necessity for this legislation. Tt is in operation in Western Australia. Why should the people of that State be deprived of a privilege? It is contended that it might encourage trade unionism. I have heard some honorable senators on the other side declare that they are the greatest friends of trade unions. 7599 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - Old unionism. 7599 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Old unionism is dead and in a putrid state. That is the kind of unionism the honorable senator favours - unionism that is of little good to the workers. In view of the measure which has just been passed, no honorable senator can consistently oppose a provision permitting trade unions to possess the same privileges as manufacturers. If honorable senators on the other side wish to give a similar privilege to non-unionists, let them propose a clause providing that there shall be a trade mark, called the non-union label, and it shall have my support. 7599 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - The honorable senator does not see that we do not wish to distinguish between unionists and non-unionists. 7599 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Honorable senators are asked to extend to unionists a privilege similar to that which is given to manufacturers. I hope that the motion to recommit the Bill will be defeated. 7599 K7V South Australia Free Trade Attorney-General 1 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON . - I ask Senator Gould, in view of reasons I propose to give, not to press his motion to a division. It will still be open to him to discuss the subject on the third reading, and the views put by Senator Pearce in that regard are perfectly fair. Let me state the reasons which influence me. Of course, my honorable friends know - Senator Pearce has twitted me more than once - that I am very strongly, opposed to those provisions, first so far as place is concerned as being in this Bill, and secondly on principle. I am sure that Senator Gould will appreciate my declaration, as indicating that it is not because of any sympathy- 7600 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - What is the good of that if the honorable and learned senator is going to vote for them going into the Bill ? 7600 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not purpose to vote for them going into the Bill, because they are in it already. 7600 KVD 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator Mulcahy - Is the honorable and learned senator going to vote for them remaining in? 7600 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No. But I am not going to move a motion for recommittal every week, and I am sure that Senator Gould would not desire me to do so, especially at a period of the session when every moment of our time is extremely valuable. My honorable friend moved a motion to recommit last week. With two exceptions every member of the Senate was accounted for in the division as to recommittal. There was an equality of voting, with the result that, according to the Constitution, the question passed in the negative. I voted with my honorable and learned friend in support of the recommittal. But I am not prepared again to support the motion to recommit. I do not take the view that because an amendment is made in a Bill with which I do not agree I ought therefore to vote against the third reading. I do not think I ought to sacrifice .1 Bill because of some provision in it which I do not like. This measure is intended for th<» regulation and registration of trade marks. I do not think that a trade union mark is strictly within the meaning of the measure at all. But the question has been fought out, and an amendment has been carried. Now the Bill is ready to be sent to another place. There is very little hope of it being passed this session. But whether that is so or not, the other Chamber will be able to deal with the whole subject. If the trade union mark provisions are retained by a majority they will form part of the Bill ; if they are rejected by a majority they will come back to the Senate for reconsideration. In view of all the circumstances, I hope that Senator Gould will not press his motion to a division. Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD (New South Wales). - While it is perfectly clear that if 1 fail to secure the recommittal of the Bill, I might offer a protest on the third reading, I do not desire to occupy the time of the Senate by doing so when I can say all that I have to say now. What I wish to point out is that, notwithstanding the apparent fairness of the clauses to which I take exception, and notwithstanding all that has been said with regard to their object being to prevent sweating, and that trade unions would exercise the power given to them in a kind and benign way, I still feel that it is a very serious mistake to put such provisions in the Bill. Moreover, we have to recognise that when we were dealing with the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill it was considered to be undesirable that organizations should have the right to ask for preference when they had political objects. But that very excellent rule will not prevail under this Bill as it stands. While trade unions will not be able to ask for preference under the Arbitration Bill, if they have political, objects, they will be able to register trade union marks. To that 1 have the strongest objection. Trade unions -will be able to attach their marks to goods to the detriment of other goods made bv men who are quite as good workmen, and just as loyal to their fellow-labourers, as are unionists. But because they do not join in the particular shibboleth of the majority of a particular union, the goods which they make will be prejudiced. That is not fair. I have spoken before with regard to the tyranny of trade unions. Senator McGregor, with his little sarcastic laugh, may ridicule that observation, but he knows perfectly well that there are innumerable instances in which the greatest tyranny has been exercised by trade; unions towards their fellow-workmen. Only the day before yesterday we had the Judge of the Arbitration Court, in Sydney, censuring the members of a union for their tyranny. 7600 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - It was admitted. 7600 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - Yes, it comes to this-" Do all you possibly can in the first place to injure non-unionists, and when you are found out, plead for mercy." How would that do in the case of a man who was found guilty of picking another man's pocket? Under clause 75 of this Bill, upon the registration of a trade union mark, the union by whom it was registered would be deemed to be the proprietors thereof, and would be entitled to the exclusive use of the mark for the purpose of differentiating the labour of the members of the union from the labour of other people. That is to say, every workman who was not able to join in the particular shibboleth of a particular union because of its political policy would not be able to make goods upon which this mark could De placed. 7601 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - There are members of my own union who would not vote for a labour candidate. The honorable and learned senator does not know what he is talking about. 7601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - I know more of what I am talking about than the honorable senator does nine times out of ten. A' trade union under these clauses means a union registered as such under the law of any State, or any number of such unions or any organization. If the clauses had gone to the extent of applying to nonpolitical unions, such as have to be registered under the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, a great deal of the objection to them would have been removed. 7601 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - There are many trade unions which are not political. 7601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- Possibly. A trade union may, however, be as political as it likes, but if it registers a trade mark it is entitled to use it, and that mark can only be put upon goods manufactured by the members of a union having such a political complexion. That is unfair to other persons. I am not going to quarrel with the Attorney-General for the attitude which he has assumed with reference to the measure. Of course if he and his colleagues intend to vote against the recommittal, there is not much prospect of my succeeding at the present stage. And it is possible that the public, if I go to a division, and am beaten, may think that our objection to the clauses is weakening. I am glad to recognise that the Attorney-General is as strongly opposed to the provisions as he ever was. I am willing, however, to withdraw my motion and allow the subject to be fought out in the other House. No doubt, in due course a final decision will be given upon the subject. I quite recognise the position put by the Attorney-General, and beg, leave to withdraw my motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. 7601 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator Sir Josiah Symon) read a first time. 7601 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator Sir Josiah Symon) read a first time. 7601 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator Sir Josiah Symon) read a first time. . 7601 miscellaneous 7601 K7V South Australia Free Trade Attorney-General 1 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON . - I move - That the Standing Orders be suspended to enable the Defence Bill 1904 and also the Papua (British New Guinea) Bill respectively to be read a second time this day. I limit the motion to the second reading of these Bills, and if any honorable senator desires, the adjournment of the debate in respect to either, I undertake to consent. 7601 KLZ New South Wales 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - At this late period of the session, I recognise the emergent position ot the Government in regard to some of the measures before Parliament; but I hope it will be clearly understood that to-night we shall have nothing more than the proposal that the measures referred to shall be read a second time. Before the debate in respect of either Bill is proceeded with, some reasonable time ought to be allowed in which honorable senators may make themselves acquainted with its provisions. The Papua Bill, as we know, has been before the country for some little time, and, therefore, to a certain extent, honorable senators may be acquainted with its provisions in general terms. But the Defence Bill proposes to revolutionize our whole system of defence control. Whether the scheme for the reorganization of the defences be good or bad, I do not intend to debate at the present moment; but, in a matter of such paramount importance to the Commonwealth, we ought to endeavour to come to a wise decision. The desirability of a change is a matter for argument, and, at any rate, the measure ought not to be discussed until next week. 7601 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Senator Higgs - The Defence Bill is necessary. 7602 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - I know that, and the Government have proceeded on the supposition that the Bill will be carried ; but we ought to have some days in which to consider a matter of such great importance. 7602 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I intend to make my own speech in moving the second reading, and if any honorable senator desires then to continue the debate, there is no reason why he should not do so. I shall, however, consent at once to any request for an adjournment of the debate in respect to either Bill. No doubt the Defence Bill is important, but I hope Senator Gould will do his best to address himself to its provisions at as early a date as possible. I shall consider the question of the date to be fixed for the resumption of the debate, but at present it is my intention to move that it be tomorrow. Question resolved in the affirmative. 7602 bill 7602 Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON (South Australia - Attorney-General). - I move - That the Bill be now read a second time. I quite appreciate the remarks of Senator Gould as to the importance of this measure. No one can realize more than I do that the first object of a free people is to provide for their own safety, which lies in an adequate provision for domestic peace and order and for defence against foreign or outside aggression. Neither in these days nor in days gone by, has right always proved to be might. We must be prepared to defend ourselves, and we all agree that union, strength, and readiness may possibly avert, while unread i ness or weakness or want of preparation may invite, war. Those general considerations underlie what we all recognise as the importance of having a thorough and complete system of defence. We must have trained men, complete armament, adequate equipment, and effective direction and command. If we secure all these, then we may rest fairly satisfied that, to the limits of our power, we are prepared for emergencies which, if they do arise, may threaten our national existence. It has been usual in some quarters to disparage or undervalue the advantages of training ; but I think most of us agree that patriotism or enthusiasm in the defence of one's country is not all that is required in order to handle a gun or lead an army. Without training, the most eager enthusiasm, and the most deep-seated patriotism, count for very little, especially in these days of modern armament and equipment. I think we all agree further that we should not rely on the mother country. I have always held the view, and expressed it in the Senate and elsewhere, that the cardinal principle which ought to animate us in establishing a system of defence is self-reliance. 7602 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - In conjunction with the mother country, of course? 7602 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have before expressed the opinion, in connexion with what is known as the Naval Agreement - and I say this in all earnestness, with the unbounded sense of Imperial patriotism which I possess - that the less we talk about relying on the mother country for the defence of the Australian shores the better it will be for us as a people. There being, I think, a general agreement on those points of principle, there is no question which is less controversial or less of a party nature than that which has relation to a defence scheme. We may individually differ as to the best scheme to be adopted. We may differ as to the details of any particular proposals ; but in regard to the national object we all have in view - provision for an effective defence for Australia - the question appears to me to be absolutely noncontroversial and non-party. That being so, we should approach the consideration of this most vital subject in the spirit which Senator Gould has indicated. We are united in the desire to secure an efficient system of defence, and the question is how that may best be attained? That, in my judgment, is solved by the scheme which I have now the honour to submit to the Senate. In the first place, it is conceded on all , hands that the defence of Australia is to be intrusted to a Citizen Army, and, for the matter of that, to a Citizen Navy, subject to the conditions involved in the Naval Agreement, to which I have already referred. 7602 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - If we desire a Citizen Army, we must have compulsory training. 7602 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not know that we must; but no doubt a great deal is to be said in regard to that question, in which I know Senator Dobson takes a deep interest. It is a question, however, with which we are not immediately concerned in considering this Bill. Undoubtedly, the measure is designed to effect a great change in the system of defence which has hitherto prevailed. But while it is conceded that our defence is to be intrusted to a Citizen Army - a point I shall emphasize a little later on - we must have instructional and administrative officers, who, so to speak, will form a professional nucleus. Whether this professional nucleus emerges, as it were, from the Citizen Army, as we all hope it may, or however it may arise, there must, in the present conditions of Australia, be an instructional and administrative staff, composed of officers and men who devote their whole time to military matters. The object of this Bill is to effect a very great change in the system which has hitherto existed. To put it in one sentence, it involves the substitution of a Council of Defence and Administrative Boards with an Inspector-General for a Commander-in-Chief. 7603 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Boards drawn from every Department of the service. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I shall refer to the details later. Although, as Senator Gould has said, and as I have admitted, this is a very great change in the system which has 'hitherto prevailed, it is one which I believe has secured and holds now the assent, certainly, of a large body, if not of all, of those who are well informed on the subject. I think it holds, also, the assent of the majority of those who are concerned or interested in the Defence Force of Australia. 7603 JXT FT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col NEILD -Col. Gould. - The Bill is whatever the Government of the day chooses to make it. We might just as well say that the Government shall have absolute control to do as it sees fit, because the Bill leaves everything to be "as prescribed." 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Under the present Act it is " as prescribed." 7603 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - No, there is a great deal laid down by the Act. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - With the details of the scheme I intend to deal later, but as" to the details of the Bill it7 self I do not propose to occupy time in going through them, because for the most part they merely make changes, chiefly in the language of the Defence Act of 1903, with a view to making the principal Act applicable to the proposed new system. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - It is the system that is important, and it does not come into the Bill. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The system is the important part, and I think my honorable friend will see that it does come into the Bill. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But we cannot touch the system in dealing with this Bill. If the system is not all that we can desire, we can move no amendment on this Bill which will affect it. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is only by means of the Bill that we can deal with the system. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - The system might be set out in the Bill. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - How could we have the defence system in all its details set out in the Bill ? The Minister of Defence has circulated a paper, which is in the hands of honorable senators, in which he has stated, with very great clearness and care, the full details of the scheme. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But in discussing this Bill I could not move any amendment on the scheme which the Minister has set out so clearly. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -Why could not my honorable friend move any amendment he pleases? 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Not any amendment of the scheme. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator can move any amendment on the Bill. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But the Bill does not contain the scheme. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I point out that it will be competent for the honorable senator to move an amendment on the Bill with a view to seeking the sanction of the Senate for any alteration' of the scheme which he thinks necessary. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Not unless the scheme is embraced in the Bill, and it is not. 7603 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Certainly the 'honorable senator can propose the addition of a new clause to the Bill', providing for any alteration of the scheme which he thinks desirable. 7603 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col Gould - Could the honorable senator propose the addition of the scheme to the Bill ? 7603 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator Best - The regulations under the Bill can be altered by the Senate after they have been laid on the table. 7603 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Certainly, and I remind the honorable and learned senator that we might adjourn next week, and might not meet again until July next, whilst the scheme is to come into force in January. 7604 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - Could we have a complete scheme of defence embodied in an Act of Parliament? 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have never heard of such a thing. 7604 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - The scheme of organization could be embodied in an Act of Parliament. 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend will find that the Bill absolutely carries out not merely the principles, but the details of the proposed scheme, because it provides for the substitution for the General Officer Commanding, of Administrative Boards, a Council' of Defence, and an Inspector-General, exactly as they are provided for in the scheme, and the details of instructions to be given, which are set out in the first instance in the report of the Committee appointed by Senator Dawson when Minister of Defence. 7604 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - What I refer to is the constitution of these boards, a-nd not the instructions to be given. 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If Senator Matheson wishes to take the sense of the Senate on the advisability of including the constitution of the boards and council in a clause or in a schedule to the Bill, it will' be competent for him to move an amendment setting out what the constitution is to be. 7604 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - That could be done, I suppose. 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It should 'be competent for my honorable friend to do that; but I think it would be extremely inadvisable and very awkward to do it. The first thing I desire to say is that, so far as the members of the present Government are concerned, they take no credit in respect to the formulation of the subs'tance of the scheme sought to be carried into effect by this Bill. 7604 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Do they accept responsibility for the wisdom of it? 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They take the responsibility, and are satisfied of the wisdom of it. They are not merely satisfied of the wisdom of it, but, so far as they can express an opinion as to its probable efficiency - because all these things are more or less experimental - they are satisfied on that point. They take no credit but the credit of taking the material which was ready to their hands when they took office, and which they have had an opportunity to consider and deal with during the short time they have been in office, and to form a very strong conclusion as to its adaptability to the purpose intended, as to the certainty of its securing the results desired, and as to the desirability of carrying it into effect at once. The credit for the scheme is due to my honorable friend, Senator Dawson, the late Minister of Defence, and to his immediate predecessor, the Hon. Austin Chapman, the member for Eden-Monaro. So far as I arn acquainted with the history of the matter, I believe that the necessity of securing a reconsideration of the then existing scheme assumed prominence and pressed itself upon the attention of Mr. Chapman, when that honorable gentleman was Minister of Defence, and that it assumed not merely .? concrete shape, but a form complete with exhaustive details, under the control, care, and energy of the late Minister of Defence, Senator Dawson. 7604 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The fact is that the brains behind the whole of the scheme is Colonel Bridges. 7604 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I propose to refer to the particulars of the report of the Committee, but I am glad to have my honorable friend's statement as to that. I was not acquainted with the fact which the honorable senator has mentioned by interjection. This scheme, in its main features,' was that adopted and left in form by the late Minister of Defence, and but for the completion in which the matter was left by the honorable senator, I frankly confess it would have been impossible for the present Ministry, with the time at their disposal - and in view of the various vicissitudes through which they have passed since they took office - to have devoted the time necessary for the evolution of a complete scheme dealing with the subject. The question comes into special prominence because of the early termination of the engagement of the late General Officer Commanding the Military Forces of the Commonwealth, Major-General Hutton. His term of engagement expires 'on the 28th December, and,' in conformity with the usual engagements in these cases, as honorable senators are aware, Major-General Hutton has already left the Commonwealth on his return to England. It is therefore imperative that Parliament should decide at once whether the old scheme, providing for a Commander-in-Chief, should be continued, or whether we shall carry out the new scheme which I have summarised, as the substitution of a Council of Defence, Administrative Boards, and an Inspector-General, for a Commander-in-Chief. The approaching departure of the General Officer Commanding, on the termination of his engagement, brought the matter, as I have said, into great prominence, and showed the almost compelling necessity for an immediate determination by Parliament as to the system it should adopt, and as to whether the former system of a General Officer in Command, or a system such as the present scheme should be carried out. It is only right that I should pay a tribute which I think, whatever views may be taken on other subjects, will be acquiesced in by other honorable senators, and by most persons in this country ; and that is a tribute to the very great energy, the constant and sincere! earnestness, exhibited by Major-General Hutton in discharging the duties of his high position, and his great services to the , Commonwealth in organizing and in bringing to a very considerable standard of efficiency its Defence Forces. It is only right to give expression to the estimate of that officer which I hold very strongly, and which I am sure will be concurred in by all who take an impartial view of his immense energy and industry in discharging the duties of his high office. That being the immediate compelling cause, the question was what course should be taken, and what scheme should be adopted. There was only one alternative from the system of a General Officer in Command, to the substitution of a Council of Defence, with Administrative Boards, such as this scheme embraces. That, as I have stated, was very effectively worked out by the late Minister of Defence, and brought into a condition of forward preparedness, which was of the very utmost value. As my honorable friend has described Colonel Bridges as the brains of the Committee- 7605 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Including Captain Collins. 7605 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That was what I understood my honorable friend to say. It is only right that credit should be given where it is due. It will be a great shortening of the further remarks I have to make, if I remind honorable senators that they have in their possession, not merely the memorandum of the present Minister of Defence clearly stating the details of the scheme, and giving reasons for its adoption, but also the extremely valuable detailed report of the deliberations of the Committee to which I have referred. And in order that both sides may be seen, they have the very able comments on its proposals by Major-General Hutton, divided into two parts - the principles of the scheme and the details of the scheme, on the assumption of its adoption with the recommendation in that regard. That enables us to institute a critical comparison between the proposals of that Committee and the proposals of the present Government, as set forth in the memorandum of the Minister of Defence, and the views of Major-General Hutton. It is most instructive, and I am sure that honorable senators will not expect me to go through it in detail, as it would be merely repeating what they have already learned. There are one or two parts, however, to which I shall very briefly allude. 7605 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The Government have put in the Bill what ought to be an amendment of the regulations. 7605 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I shall be glad to hear my honorable friend's views on that point, because I do not profess to have the technical knowledge which one who has been Minister of Defence must have acquired from those around him, or the technical knowledge of a military expert. I shall listen with interest to what all my honorable friends who are versed in these matters may say with regard to the principles of the scheme, or its details, or the Bill itself. The scheme is experimental as we must all admit, and as every advance and reform is more or less experimental. But we have before us the precedent of, I think I might say, almost every other civilized country. We have the precedent of the United States, perhaps the more closely applicable precedent of Switzerland, and now that of' England. I draw attention to the observations of Major-General Hutton, distinguishing the military situation in England from that which prevails in Australia. He points out that although this system - a Council of Defence, Administrative Boards and Inspector-General - may be' applicable to a country like England, where there is a very large military establishment to be looked after, it would not be so applicable to a country like Australia, where there is a practically infinitesimal military establishment, as compared with that of England. But I think that the answer to that objection is that although the same reason may not exist here for decentralization, for such a 'system as is now proposed, another equally potent reason does exist, and that is the enormous area of Australia. So long as we have a continuity of policy and controlling administration, we must necessarily have some decentralization in the States, with the result, if nothing else - at least so it appeals to me as a layman - that we develop a sense of responsibility, and promote a faculty of initiative, which is equally important. Two reasons which will appeal to honorable senators very strongly are, first, the advantage in respect of continuity of policy. When an officer comes here to occupy a high office of this kind, he brings his own peculiarities, and, if you like, idiosyncrasies, and he seeks to give them effect. Human nature being human nature even in military circles, there may perhaps be a special tendency to that, if some one comes here to take the place of a departing General Officer in Command, who may have other ideas, and who may, like the new broom, be desirous of not only sweeping clean in the ordinary sense, but sweeping clean away what his predecessor has done. One of the greatest advantages of this scheme is that it will secure in the first place a continuity of policy. In the next place it will secure the military system being kept in better touch with the Cabinet, and, therefore, with the Parliament. The Ministerial responsibility is all the time left untouched, so that in the last resort the responsibility rests with the Minister. Under this scheme the control of the Executive, and the control of Parliament, will stand on the same high and unquestioned level as ever, the policy of administration being dealt with by the Council of Defence, and the two Administrative Boards. Perhaps the Senate will pardon me if I state the reasons for this scheme first, from the paper of the present Minister of Defence - The main objects of the new system are : - The establishment of continuity in de fence policy, and of a continuous connexion between Parliamentary responsibility and the control and development of the Defence Forces. Effective touch between the Minister and the Department for which he is responsible to Parliament. The separation of administration from executive command, thereby making practicable, first, decentralization by the increase within established limits of the independence of State commands and the consequent encouragement of independent thought and initiative ; and, second, the ultimate full development of a Citizen Force. As a mere observant layman, I should say again that there is nothing more important in any department of human life than to cultivate a sense of responsibility, and there is no department of national life in which that is more important than in connexion with the military. If there has been one result flowing from recent warfare, whether in South Africa or elsewhere; if there has been one lesson which has been taught, and which ought to be learned, it is that initiative and responsibility on the part of not only the officers, but also the private soldiers, is of the last importance. 7606 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - That is an entire reversal of what has obtained lately. 7606 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I know my honorable friend's familiarity with the subject. 7606 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - There was no distinct line of demarcation drawn between the civil and military branches. One overlapped the other as regards authority. 7606 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I really ought to ask the forbearance of honorable senators in reading this paper, but it will help to bring the passages which strike my . mind more concretely before them if I make a few quotations - Continuity of administrative methods by the establishment of a 'continuous board. The maintenance of uniformity and of efficiency by continuous and searching inspection by, and independent report from, an Inspector-General. I propose to read one or two sentences from the report of the Committee to make perfectly clear what the cardinal features of this scheme are. They say - Under the Defence Act, sections 8 and 9, and the statutory regulations thereunder, the command of the Military Forces is vested in a General Officer Commanding. He is responsible for the efficiency of the Military Forces, as well as for ascertaining and reporting upon their efficiency. He' is also the sole responsible advisor of the Minister on all military questions. The old regime could not be better stated than in those sentences. The disadvantages of the old system are stated in the next few sentences - Information as to the condition of the Forces under this system must reach the Minister and Government through the General Officer Commanding, who is responsible for their efficiency ; and the Government are solely dependent upon him for advice upon all questions of policy and administration. Should the Government disagree with him, they have none but irresponsible advisers to apply to for information or advice. Under the existing system there has never been a continuous military policy. The defence policy depends largely upon the General Officer Commanding, as it did depend, previous to Federation, chiefly on the State Commandants. For an efficient administration and development of the Forces, the military policy should be continuous, and change with circumstances, and not when there is a change in the command. That is- to say, under the old system, with a change in the command;, there might be a reversal of the essentials of the existing military system. That ought not to be. A change in the military policy should not depend upon a change of the command, but should be dictated by changing circumstances, or by changes in national conditions. Those two quotations describe the condition under the old military system and its disadvantages, and what is intended to be substituted for it, and the advantages of the substitution. , Before I refer to the Council which is to be constituted, I may remark that the ideal in connexion with the Australian defences is one resting upon a citizen soldiery. But there must be a nucleus. There may be three stages in a country's military history. There may, no doubt, be the stage - as there is in Switzerland - in which everything connected with defence is under the control of a citizen soldiery, from administration and instruction down to the rank and file. That is impossible in this country. Subject to correction from those who are more familiar with these matters than I am, I say that it would be difficult, in a country like this, to get men. to pursue their avocations as citizens, and to afford the time which is necessary to make them competent instructional and administrative officers of the Defence Forces. As the Minister of Defence said the other day, Australia has got beyond the stage when the rank and file only are citizen soldiers. We must have a large percentage of most efficient officers in our Defence Forces, who are, in the strictest sense, citizen soldiers. But while we have got, to some extent, out of the stage in which the citizen soldiery is limited to the rank and file, we have not got quite to the next stage, in which the whole of the administrative and instructional duties would be in the hands of citizen soldiers. But that is largely the case. The third stage is where the troops and the officers holding executive commands are citizens, but not the instructional officers. That seems to be the stage which we have reached. Here the instructional duties are in the hands of professional soldiers - that is, of those who are able to devote their whole time and attention to military work, just as members of other professions devote themselves exclusively to the duties of those professions. For that purpose, of course, we must have a special staff, composed of professional soldiers who are capable of giving instruction, and who devote their whole time and attention to military duties. 7607 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - That is required by the volume of work that has to be done. 7607 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course it is; and also because the time required to train the officers in order to make them efficient for instructional purposes is such that it would be impossible for them to undertake any other business. Such being the necessities of the case, the administrative portion of the scheme is separated from the instructional. As to the executive, we have first of all to consider the proposed Council of Defence. The Council of Defence is to regulate and deal with policy, lt is proposed that it shall consist, first of all, of the Minister of State for Defence and the Treasurer. So that there will be two Ministers on the Council. 7607 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - One Minister may fill the two offices. 7607 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That may be so. The only difference between what is proposed, and the scheme shadowed forth by my honorable friend, is that he proposed that the Prime Minister should be a member of the Council of Defence. Then there are to be the Inspector-General, the Naval Director, and the Chief of the General Staff. These are, so to speak, the permanent members. The consultative members of the Council are to be representatives of the Citizen Forces, and expert advisers. In the category of consultative members would be officers who would be called in to advise whenever occasion arose to call for their advice being given. That seems to me to be a most excellent arrangement, and one which will certainly have the effect which we have in view. 7607 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Is it meant that the Prime Minister shall be a member of thu Council ? 7607 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No; the Minister of Defence and the Treasurer are to be members ; though Senator Dawson's scheme proposed that the Prime Minister should ' be a member of the Council. It is pretty clear that it is not contemplated that the Council shall meet often. When it did meet, it would discuss questions of general policy., and defence expenditure, as a whole. The administrative branch of the service would be in the hands of the Military Board. On that body the Minister of State for Defence would be the political member. The other members would be the Chief of the General Staff, the Deputy Adjutant-General, and the Chief of Ordnance, who would be the military members; then there would be a finance member, who would be the civil member of the Board; and representatives of the Citizen Forces would be consultative members. So far, I am dealing only with the Military Board. 7608 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The financial member would be the permanent head of the Department. 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Who the financial member is to be, will have to be carefully considered and determined. The duties of these officers of the Military Board would be as follows : - The Chief of the General Staff would have to deal with schemes of defence, preparation for war, schemes for mobilization and organization, arrangements for co-operation between the Naval and Military Forces, all matters of intelligence, staff rides, staff duties and similar work. The Deputy Adjutant-General would have full control of the machinery for transport, the general training of troops, and so on. That is to say, he would have control of all matters dealing with the equipment and transport of our forces. The Chief of Ordnance would have to be an officer thoroughly skilled and up-to-date in all artillery work. He would have to be able to deal with all the higher and more scientific questions embraced under the term "artillery," and we all know that at the present day there is no branch of the military service which involves more difficult scientific questions and requirements, and which demands a more highly trained expert than does the Ordnance Department. 7608 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Why is it that the Chief of Ordnance is supposed to know all about clothing and supplies? If he is supposed to be an educated artilleryman, what should he know about boots and food ? 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not know why an educated artilleryman should not know these things. 1 7608 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But what technical knowledge would .he have, as an artilleryman, of supplies and clothing? That is the work of a Deputy Quartermaster-General. 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We do not propose to have a Deputy Quartermaster-General as a member of the Military Board. 7608 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - No, he is expressly kept out ; but it is impossible to have a competent .man who would be a good artillery officer, and at the same time know all about supplies and clothing. 7608 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - Surely we do not want to make our Chief Artillery Officer an expert in military tailoring; it is ludicrous. . 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Personally, I do not think, and the Minister of Defence does not think, that there is any necessity to have a Deputy Quartermaster-General on the Military Board. It is considered that amongst the three principal expert officers, there will be sufficient intelligence to manage clothing and .supplies. 7608 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - The duties are not divided amongst the three officers. 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is one of them who has to be responsible. I shall, however, listen with great interest to the honorable senator's argument. 7608 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - It is only a matter of detail. 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - As Senator Neild says, it is a detail; but so far as I am concerned, I think it is a very excellent arrangement. Those are the general duties which the three officers of the Military Board will have to discharge. I confess I see no difficulty in the Chief of Ordnance being given some additional duties of the character alluded to. Each member of the Board will be responsible for his own particular Department. 7608 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - To whom? To the Minister ? 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - He will be responsible to the Minister in the first instance, and the Minister will be responsible to Cabinet, and the Cabinet to Parliament ; but each of the officers is not allowed to shift his individual responsibility on to the Board. Each officer will be in direct communication with the Minister. 7608 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - I am not quite sure of the advisability of that. 7608 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think the honorable senator will see that it is advisable. 7608 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - It all depends on who is the Minister. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There will be no change in the Ministerial responsibility, which will exist as completely, and, perhaps, more effectually, under a scheme such as this than when there is a Commanding Officer upon whom a Minister may shunt responsibility. If there is to be any scheme at all, the kernel must be Ministerial responsibility. I am at present confining myself to the military branch. The next point to be considered is in connexion with the Inspector-General. That officer will have nothing to do with the details of instruction or training, but will have to do with everything relating to inspection. He will have to inspect equipment, fortifications, and all matters in connexion with the defence of the country. He will be in a position to make independent reports on those subjects which come within his scope, and which are absolutely independent, and invaluable to the last degree, because of the severance of his functions from the training and instruction, and so on. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But he is given a voice in forming the policy. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - He will have a voice in respect to the general policy. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Is that wise? 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think so. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But the Inspector-General will have to report on the policy. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - He will not have to report on the policy specially. His presence on the Council of Defence, which deals with matters of policy, is very different from his being on the Military Board. It is in the highest degree wise that he should have a place on the Council of Defence, and that his responsibility should not be for the policy, or for the executive command, or for the training and instruction, but for inspecting and seeing that everything is in the most complete state of efficiency. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - He has to report on the practical results of the policy of the Council. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - And that is a very excellent thing. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But he has to help to form that policy. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - And so he ought to. He may voluntarily report, or he may be called upon to report specially on the practical results of the policy. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Then he may be biased, because of his having previously expressed his views and been overruled. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Whether he is or not overruled, he has to submit his reports to the Minister. He will report, not on the policy, but on the practical results of the policy. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - But he may have been overruled, and may, therefore, be biased. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not assume that one man in a body of five permanent members, together with consultative members, will be so biased as to be incompetent to give a report on practical results. 7609 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If he were, he would not be fit to hold the position. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Quite so; a man against -whom such a criticism could be successfully levelled, would not be worthy of trie place. Even if he had no voice in forming the policy, and took an adverse view, the position would be just the same. Of course we cannot have anything that is absolutely complete and perfect. 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - We cannot have a perfect man ; that is the trouble. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Shall I say with one exception ? 7609 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - On no account; it would be the grossest flattery. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The apex of the whole scheme is, finally, the responsibility which rests with the Minister. 7609 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - Ministerial responsibility is not lost at any stage. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It permeates the whole scheme. The Minister is on the Council of Defence, the i Military Board, and on the Naval Board. 7609 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - And on the parliamentary gridiron. 7609 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The Minister knows that very well. Under the scheme, which I have endeavoured briefly to outline, we shall have a complete system of the kind which is most in vogue in modern times. We must all admit, as I have said, that it is an experimental scheme, but it is one for the success of which we have precedents in other countries. Such a scheme has recently been established in England, where, so far as the general principle is concerned, it meets with the approval of all responsible military authorities, and is one which I have no doubt will work well. The naval part of the scheme is on a much smaller scale, and, therefore, the Administrative Board is smaller. It will consist of the Minister of Defence, the Director of the Naval Forces, the Finance Minister, and consultative members. The naval, scheme really consists of two portions - sea-going' defence and coastal defence. As to seagoing defence, I think that honorable senators know the views I have all along entertained on the question of the Imperial Squadron. I have thought the matter over a good many times, but I am still of opinion that our defences in this regard are not satisfactory to Australia. I do not intend, however, to dwell on what is an existing fact, but merely to express the hope that the arrangement will in every way prove satisfactory. But I think a great deal more is required in regard to our coast defences, which are altogether apart from the defence of trade routes, commerce on the high seas, and so on. I hope that an opportunity will be afforded to this, or some other Government, at no distant date, to make a substantial advance in the direction of greater efficiency. 7610 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Will the Naval" Director be entirely disassociated from State command? The point is not clear under clause 7 of the scheme. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I really do not know. My impression is that the Naval Director will be independent of any State command, but I shall ascertain the true position and inform the honorable senator. This Bill is brought in to give effect to the scheme which I have outlined. 7610 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild .- The honorable senator promised to refer to clauses 5 and 6, which are excrescences on the proposed system. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is the honorable senator's opinion ; I 96 not think they are excrescences. -I shall not go through the details of the Bill, but merely refer to interjections which were offered when I was dealing with another part of the scheme. It was suggested that the Bill does not set out the whole scheme. I do not quite understand what honorable senators mean by that. As I said at the time, if it is desired to test the feeling of the Senate on the subject, some proposal may be made in that direction. I would point out to Senators Matheson and Gould that this is an enabling Bill. It would never do to make a Bill of this description, or any Defence Bill, absolutely rigid and. inelastic. It was for that reason that the principal Act of 1903 was, in that regard, framed on the same basis as is the present measure. The principal Act left all matters which should be dealt with by regulation to be so dealt with. 7610 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - That is the reason we have the words "as prescribed." 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The words "as prescribed" appear and reappear many times in the principal Act. I point out to my honorable friends that all these things are to be " as prescribed ' ' by regulations which must be laid before Parliament. 7610 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Within seven days after it meets, which might be next June. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course; but we must go on with our work. My honorable friend does not desire that the whole administration of the defence of the country shall remain in a state of chaos ? 7610 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - No; but I should like the details to be set out in this Bill. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I hope that the honorable senator when he speaks will mention the details to which he refers. I am sure that he cannot desire that the whole of the statement of the Minister of Defence, in explanation of the scheme, should find a place in the Bill. 7610 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - No; but all provisions for. the allocation of duties should, be set out in the Bill. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But surely my honorable friend recognises that the Ministry are ' responsible ? 7610 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - That is but a figure of speech. 7610 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is not a figure of speech. Senator Matheson must be aware that the Ministry must be responsible for expounding such a scheme of defence as this to Parliament, when it is on the faith of the scheme proposed that the Defence Estimates are passed. Honorable senators will remember that the statement made by the Minister of Defence was made in another place, not on the Bill, but on the Defence Estimates. A statement of that kind is the only form in which the details of such a scheme could be propounded. If the Ministry, without very good reasons, on which they must satisfy Parliament, departed from a scheme so propounded to and approved by Parliament, they must expect to be visited "by the punishment which would be their deserts. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - What punishment has Sir John Forrest received for his responsibility for the present state of the Defence Forces? 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - When my honorable friend refers to that matter I find it difficult to answer him. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - That is Ministerial responsibility carried to its real conclusion. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I cannot answer that argument. When Senator Matheson brings Sir John Forrest into a debate of this kind I confess I am nonplussed. Sir John Forrest to the honorable senator is like "King Charles' head " in the well-known reference. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Then let us say Sir William Lyne. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I know how my honorable friend treated that honorable gentleman not so very long ago. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Then let us say the Government. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I appreciate what my honorable friend says, but if the honorable senator contends that Ministerial responsibility is a mere sham and a fraud- 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Absolutely. Twelve months after it is assumed it ceases to exist. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then I can say no more. But the honorable senator will not rectify that by setting out a long and unnecessary explanation in a Bill of this description, ' which is an enabling Bill intended to enable a scheme, propounded to Parliament on Ministerial responsibility, to be carried into effect. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - Why plead Ministerial responsibility in extenuation? Of what use is it ? 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am aware that Senator Matheson is a most expert dialectic ian, and I enjoy nothing so much as a friendly controversy with the honorable senator. 7611 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The remedy is to have a continuous Ministry. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Senator Matheson will, I am sure, allow me to postpone the private discussion of the point he has raised to a later period. I do not undervalue the honorable senator's suggestion, but I was going to point out that the essence of the proposal is contained in the Bill. It is provided by clause 7 that the Governor-General may constitute a Council of Defence. That is the first thing. If Senator Matheson says that he objects 10 this scheme- 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - No, I do not. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - -I am aware that the honorable senator does not, and that, on the contrary, the scheme has his hearty approval. 7611 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - Why not specify the Council ? 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Why should we? If we specified the Council to use the honorable senator's own expression, I think that would be an excrescence. Then we provide in the same clause for a Military Board! and a Naval Board ; and thirdly, we provide that the Military and Naval Boards respectively shall have such powers and functions as are prescribed. We could not set out the whole of them in the Bill. They may vary according to circumstances. We might make a regulation one day which it might be found necessary to alter six months later. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - I think that all the powers and functions of the boards should be prescribed in the Bill. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We do not need them set out in the Bill. 7611 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - I should like to see them in a schedule to the Bill. 7611 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I hope that my honorable friend will reconsider that view. The regulations which will prescribe all these things must be laid before Parliament within fourteen days, if Parliament is sitting, and1 if it is not sitting, within fourteen days after the next meeting of Parliament. And then either House of the Parliament may pass a resolution disagreeing with any of these regulations, and there is an end of it. We could not have any more perfect control under any system adopted. I remind honorable senators that in connexion with the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill a debate was raised as to a similar provision, and I am sure they felt that the matter was dealt with necessarily in the form in which it appeared in that Bill. Senator Neild has referred me to clauses 5 and 6 of this Bill. In my opinion, clause 5, instead of being an excrescence on the Bill, as the honorable senator has contended, is of very great importance, and is practically a summary of what is contained in section 18 of the principal Act, with this difference - that whilst the principal Act provides that warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and petty officers shall hold their appointments as prescribed, we say in this clause that they shall be appointed, and shall hold their offices as prescribed. 7612 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - That should be a matter for regulation. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is exactly what is proposed. 7612 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - What has :that to do with the general policy of the Bill ? 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We propose an improvement on the existing system in that regard. We suggest an amendment of the principal Act to that effect, but it is not necessarily dependent on the system. So also with clause 6, defining seniority, other than regimental seniority. 7612 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - That is destroying one of the cardinal features of the Act. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I shall be glad to hear my honorable friend on that ; but when we get into Committee, I think I shall be able to give the honorable senator good reasons for what is proposed to be done. 7612 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - I trust that in Committee the honorable and learned senator will assent to the omission of these two clauses. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think not, though I shall, of course, listen, with interest to the arguments which Senator Neild has to address to honorable senators on the subject. What is here proposed will, I believe, be found to be a very great improvement on the principal Act, and I hope to be able to give good reasons for these clauses, which will satisfy Senator Neild, who, I am sure, always desires to be reasonable. 7612 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Lt Col Neild - I am afraid not. These matters were discussed for three days in the Senate, only a year ago. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think I shall be able to satisfy my honorable friend ; and, at all events, I am sure that the honorable senator will give me an opportunity to do so. That is all I need say so far as the Bill is concerned, but I have one or two words to say as to alleged omissions. A question has been raised with respect to the establishment of an arsenal and a military college. The establishment of such institutions is a very large question, and would involve heavy expenditure. 7612 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - They can be provided for on the Estimates. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Quite so; they are not matters to be dealt with in a Bill of this character. They are matters of grave policy, involving considerable expenditure, which it is> not possible for the Commonwealth to undertake at the present time. I should like to say, in conclusion, that, irrespective of this scheme, the energy and earnestness of the late and present Ministers of Defence have been shown with regard to the armament of the Commonwealth Defence Forces. Senator Dawson, when Minister of Defence, took the responsibility of anticipating parliamentary authority for th<.* supply of, I think, 5,000 of the shortened magazine rifles of the very latest pattern: The honorable senator's example in that respect has been followed by the present Minister of Defence, in anticipating parliamentary sanction to the extent of ordering twenty of the latest pattern impounder field guns, since the honorable and learned" gentleman was enabled to arrange that it would be possible to have them delivered before the end of the present financial year. I think that every honorable senator will feel that the thanks of the country are du: for acts of this kind, calculated to place us if not completely, at all events, well abreast of our requirements in this regard. 7612 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - The difficulty is thai we might give an order to-day, and it might not be fulfilled before this time two years. 7612 KSQ 0 0 MATHESON, Alexander Senator Matheson - The guns referred to are to be out, I understand, in Mav opJune? 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They are to be delivered, as I have said, before the end of the present financial year. The twenty 18^-pounders will not complete the armament of the Field Artillery, but they will go some way towards it, and the 15-pounder guns which we now have will" be gradually replaced bv the others as time goes on. I feel sure that the scheme of defence submitted will commend itself to the Senate, and that when it is brought into operation we may with confidence entertain the hope that the interests of the Commonwealth of Australia in the matter of defence will at last be placed upon a sound footing Debate (on motion by Senator Dawson) adjourned. 7612 bill 7612 7612 K7V South Australia Free Trade Attorney-General 1 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON . - I move - That the Hill be now read a second time. 7612 JTV ALP 0 0 DAWSON, Anderson Senator DAWSON - I am afraid the wiMin» horse is being worked too hard. 7612 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There is no pleasure like that of addressing this Senate, and nothing but t'he encouragement which my honorable friends have given me would induce me to undertake the task, in respect of which I ask their indulgence, of moving the second reading of this Bill immediately after dealing .with the Defence Bill. I think it right that honorable Senators should have shortly placed before them a tew of the matters dealt with in the Bill. There can be no doubt that we have in the portion of New Guinea which is a British Possession, a very grave responsibility. The interests, I was about to say the good name, and at all events the credit of Australia, is to some, extent involved in the success of our administration of this Territory. It is, therefore, very important that we should see that every effort is made to do the best we can to advance the interests and promote the prosperity of the first Dependency, I think I may call it, of which the Commonwealth of Australia has become possessed. From that point of view I invite honorable senators to bear with me whilst I refer to the position of New Guinea, and also to the provisions of the Bill. In the first place, the title of the Bill needs perhaps a word of explanation. We have always been in the habit of speaking of the island as New Guinea. The whole island, of course, is called Papua or New Guinea. The Dutch part is officially known as New Guinea; the German part is officially known as Kaiser Wilhelm's Land, and the adjacent islands - it is rather sad to contemplate the change in the names of New Britain. New Island, and so on - are known as the Bismarck Archipelago ; and Papua is the peculiarly appropriate name for describing that portion of the island which belongs to us, and which embraces the Gulf of Papua. It is for that reason, I suppose, that we have called the Bill the Papua Bill, and shall continue to call the Dependency Papua. This island, as we all know, is the largest island in the world, if we exclude Australia. Its greatest length is 1,490 miles, and its maximum breadth is 430 miles. Its area is about 234,786 square miles, and the Possession of which we are assuming the control represents rather more than a third of what I may call the mainland, if we include 2,754 square miles, which is the area of the adjacent islands. Some of the adjacent islands are important, while others are mere reeky and barren precipices, one consisting of a mountain 8,000 feet high. In Woodlark Island there is believed to be very considerable mineral wealth. The Possession is not merely large in area, but it is well watered. It possesses great forest wealth, and although the climatic conditions vary very greatly, still, tropical productions grow with very great freedom. So far as occupation and settlement are concerned, the climate is not by any means so unfavourable as very many' persons think. At Port Moresby, the Seat of Government, the average temperature for four years, at 9 a.m., was 80 degrees. For the same period the average maximum was 86.65 degrees, while the average minimum was 73 degrees. The extreme range of temperature is from 94 degrees to 74 degrees Fahrenheit, at 9 a.m. 7613 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - What was the degree of moisture in the atmosphere? 7613 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It will be very easy to draw an inference as to what the moist condition of the atmosphere must be, when I mention that at Port Moresby the rainfall for the last seven years has averaged 41 inches, while at Daru, in the western division, the average for the same period has been 94 inches, which is about 8 feet, and which honorable senators will think is a very fair rainfall. But these records are outstripped at Samarai, near the south-east end of the mainland, where for one year the rainfall was 126! 5 inches, or about 10J feet. In that connexion we know that malarial fever prevails, but so far as I am aware, it is of a comparatively mild type. There are very lofty mountains on the island, Mount Victoria being 13,200 feet high; although some parts - I believe towards the westward - are low, marshy, and unhealthy, yet there are other portions which are, I shall not say altogether as salubrious as we should like, but comparatively salubrious ; at any rate, the malarial fever is of rather a mild type. The climate is favorable to tropical production. The cocoanut palm bears well everywhere. It is specially suited, in the dry climate, of the central district at any rate, to cotton growing. In certain localities, tobacco of superior quality is grown. The sugarcane seems to have been very long domesticated, or to be an indigenous product. Tea. cocoa, and coffee, thrive well ; they are not indigenous. Amongst the varieties of timber on the island, we have sandal wood, ebony, and cedar. There are deposits of gold existing over a large area, and coal has been found. The marine resources consist of pearl shells and pearl, trepang, sponges, and turtle. So that we have a territory with considerable potentialities to the Commonwealth, and a very varied kind of production. It is occupied by a native population of a very interesting race. Senator Smith has been there, and I hope that he will be able, from personal knowledge and examination, to describe the products of the island, its capabilities, and the favorable view or otherwise that he took of the population. These people are not given to the cultivation of the ground, and, like many other natives, I dare say, of the South Sea Islands, they are not disposed to continuous labour if it can be helped. But I believe that in the eastern portion of the. Possession, the natives have shown themselves capable of being taught and developed. I have had an opportunity of seeing the communications by the Rev. Mr. Abel, and Mrs. Abel, who have testified to the capacity for instruction, and the facility with which these natives have learned boat-building and other handicrafts, and made themselves useful at the industrial mission. The European population number about 500, and comprise about four classes, namely, the Government officials, the missionaries, the traders, and the miners. These are distributed amongst the three principal coast settlements, Port Moresby, Samarai, of which I have heard in another connexion,, and which is, I believe a rather unsuitable place on an island in the China strait, at the eastern end of the Possession, and Daru, a place where that very ample rainfall takes place, on an island not far from the mouth of the Fly River. The officials consist of a central staff of fourteen magistrates and assistant magistrates, and ten other officials. The missionaries represent four societies, three Protestant, and one Roman Catholic. They all work most harmoniously together, They do not encroach or overlap in their respective spheres, and I believe they have all been successful in their efforts for the improvement of the natives, and the advancement of the country. The traders are scattered about in isolated places, as is natural in an unsettled country of this description, appearing wherever trade or the opportunities of exchange may call them. So far as the trading settlement is concerned, it is confined to Samarai, Port Moresby, and to the gold-fields. The mining population is naturally fluctuating. One would imagine it to be perhaps a little rough in a country like that ; but my information is that certainly at Woodlark Island, where there are quartz reefs and a battery, and the men work in small parties- and are a good deal mixed in character and disposition, they are a very law-abiding set, and offences amongst them are extremely rare. Up to now this Possession, having these resources, peopled by natives of the character I have described, and' with a small European population, has been a Crown Colony in the ordinary sense of the term. A contribution was made by the three eastern Colonies of Australia towards its expanse up to a certain time. The contribution ceased, and about the time of Federation the question was raised as to the course which was to be pursued to provide for the government: of the Possession. Prior to 1883, it was neglected by every bod}'. The Imperial authorities took little or no interest in it; it was left to look after itself. As early as 1872, it was visited by missionaries, and in the early eighties, the gold discoveries naturally attracted a number of persons. But prior to 1883, New Guinea as a whole was altogether neglected by the Imperial authorities. In that year, authorized by the Government of Queensland, Mr. Chester hoisted the British flag, and took possession of the Island. This was disavowed by Lord Derby on behalf of the Imperial Government on the 10th July, 1883. Considerable excitement arose in Australia in consequence of that course of action. The feeling on the part of the Imperial Government was expressed very strongly by Lord Derby, and it was made the foundation by him of the suggestion that it would be all very well for Australia if she were united to act in that way, but that it was extremely inadvisable for a particular Colony to adopt such a course, and so, if I may use the expression, force on an undesirable action on the part of the Imperial Government. What Lord Derby said in the House of Lords was this - If the Australian people desire an extension beyond their present limits, the most practicable step they could take, the one that would most facilitate any operation of the kind, and diminish, in the greatest degree, the responsibility of the mother country, would be the confederation of the Colonies into one united whole, which would be powerful enough to undertake and carry through tasks for which no one Colony ' is at present sufficient. And in a despatch addressed to the Governor of Queensland on the nth July, 1883, he said - Her Majesty's Government regret that it should be necessary from time to time to refuse assent to proposals coming from individual Colonies for the assumption of large and serious responsibilities in regard to places and questions not specially concerning those of Her Majesty's subjects who live in other parts of the Empire, and I trust the time is now not distant when, in respect of such questions (if not for other purposes of government), the Australian Colonies will effectively combine together and provide the cost of carrying out any policy, which, after mature consideration, they may unite in recommending, and which Her Majesty's Government may think right and expedient to adopt. The result was that considerable feeling was aroused in Australia. But the period of inaction which was consequent upon that attitude led in 1884 to the German Government taking possession of the northern division of the eastern half of the island. In the meantime, in December, 1883, the strong feeling aroused in Australia took shape in the Australian Convention, which sat in Sydney, and which, as honorable senators will recollect, passed a resolution strongly urging that that part of New Guinea which was not claimed by the Netherlands Government should be annexed to the British Empire. Then came the step taken by Germany, and it was not until 1887 that the portion of New Guinea with which we are now dealing was erected into a Possession by the Imperial Government, after an arrangement entered into with the three eastern Australian Colonies to provide for the expense of government, leaving, of course, the ultimate authority with the Colonial Office. I need, not enter into the details connected with that matter, but in the meantime we had the effort on the part of Australia to establish Federal union. That having culminated by the establishment of the Commonwealth, and its inauguration in January, 1901, the Government of Australia were at once pressed by the Imperial authorities to assume the responsibility of supervizing and financing the Government of the Possession. That was a course of action that was made imperative - at least, the Imperial authorities regarded it as imperative - because the guarantee of the eastern Colonies had expired, and the local revenues were not sufficient to pay the cost of government. Accordingly, when the Commonwealth Parliament met in 1901 - honorable senators will find the record of it in Hansard for that year - both Houses passed the following resolution, which is the basis of the present legislation: - Thai this House is prepared to join in measures for the acceptance of British New Guinea as a Territory of the Commonwealth, if His Majesty is pleased to place it under Federal control. That towards the expenses of the administration of the Possession this House is willing, when called upon, to vote a sum not exceeding ^20,000 per annum, as from the 1st July, 1901, subject to revision at the end of five years. The next step was that which honorable senators will find set out in the preamble of this Bill, namely, the issue of an Order in Council making a formal offer of the Possession to the Commonwealth, so as to enable it to be accepted. This Bill will formally accept it, as honorable senators will find in clause 5, and will provide the necessary machinery for the purpose of carrying on the government, which, until the Bill becomes law, is carried on under the terms of the Order in Council, of course substituting the Governor-General and the Commonwealth Government for the Imperial authorities. That is the story up to the introduction of this Bill. One great drawback in respect of the prosperity of British New Guinea up to now - one which I think will be speedily removed - is the irregularity of communication. Under the proposed re-arrangement of the Pacific mail service with Messrs. Burns, Philp, and Company, we shall have a line established between Thursday Island and British New Guinea on a subsidy of, I think, ^2,000 per annum. I wish to say in that connexion - I have not the exact figures by me - that there are two lines of steam-ships to New Guinea, calling, I believe, en route from Sydney to Singapore. One is the German Australian line, and the other is the line of Messrs. Burns, Philp, and Company. The German-Australian line is subsidized to the extent of ^22,674 per annum by the German Government, and the other - Messrs. Burns, Philp, and Company - receives at present no subsidy at all. So that I think honorable senators will feel that it is one step in the right direction to establish a regular service of this character ; and a service from Thursday Island to New Guinea at monthly intervals for so small a sum as ^2,000 is something of which we have no reason to complain. I hope that will only be the beginning of larger efforts to develop the resources of New Guinea, and to make it not a burden but an advantage and ' a source of wealth to the Commonwealth of Australia. There are only two other matters to which I wish to refer. I do not intend to go through the provisions of the Bill, because they are highly technical. They rest upon substantially the same principles of government as already exist, with a further development applicable to the new state of things, and preserving, as we ought to preserve, the ordinances already existing in the Possession, so far as they are beneficial, and so far as they are applicable. But there are two portions of the Bill to which I think I ought to direct attention, not with a view to go into any elaborate controversy about them, but so that honorable senators may realize that they do embody questions of policy which are not overlooked. The first of them is, that in clause 20 there is a prohibition against the granting of any freehold estate in any lands in the Territory ; and, secondly, providing that- the rental of all such land granted or disposed of by way of lease shall be assessed on the unimproved value of the land, and shall be subject to re-assessment at such periods and in such modes as are fixed by the ordinance. The latter is merely a consequential provision made necessary if the former is enacted. Personally, I think it is a pity that that provision should be introduced at the present stage of the development of the Territory. I largely sympathize with the feeling in respect of the non-alienation of land. To some extent I share it. But a rigid prohibition of all alienation of land in fee-simple, in a newly-acquired country which has yet to be settled, and where we are seeking to promote development, may retard that development and that settlement. I think it would have been better if there had been some less rigid prohibition - some provision permitting a certain elasticity in this regard, under proper regulation and control. The aggregation of huge estates in a new country is greatly to be deprecated. But, at the same time, nobody can deny that an Englishman's great ambition is to possess a piece of land, and that a British settler going to a new country does not like to expend his capital or his energy on land which he holds on lease, however long the lease may run. He has the feeling that the land may be taken from him at some time or other. There is an inherent dislike, even on the part of Australians!, to hold land on lease. 7616 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - There are numerous instances to the contrary, even in this city. 7616 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There is a great deal to be said in favour of the non-alienation of land in a new country. But we are now assuming a new role. We are not dealing with the Commonwealth - a settled country. We are regarding these States as our settled homes. We are becoming colonizers. 7616 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - And we are continually saying, in regard to our own country, " Oh, if we had a chance to start again." 7616 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have not said that. I frankly admit, with regard to the Territory which is to be acquired, that we may make an excellent experiment. But, at the same time, it is well for honorable senators to consider whether a little more latitude in the way of dealing with land in this new Territory under proper regulations may not be possible. 7616 KHE 0 0 HIGGS, William Senator Higgs - Does the; Attorney-General not see that it is paradoxical for us to try to found a Colony in New Guinea while we are advertising for immigrants to settle in Australia? 7616 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We cannot prevent people, going to New Guinea, if they are attracted there by the prospect of finding gold. Three years ago this Parliament decided to take over this Possession, which is now in a less defined way Commonwealth territory, but which will, when this Bill finds a place on the statute-book, be placed on a footing as a Territory of the Commonwealth. All I say is that i,t is not to be assumed that it is a counsel of perfection to absolutely prohibit the alienation of land. If we are to exercise our gifts as colonizers, and follow in the footsteps of the mother country, we might, at all events, consider whether we should not avail ourselves of that tendency which lies deep in British human nature towards the acquisition of freehold land, as an inducement to quicken the settlement and development of New Guinea. 7616 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - Has not some of the land already been alienated? 7616 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That raises questions into which I do not desire to enter. I merely point out that this is one of two portions of the Bill which involve matters of policy, rather than the construction of a system of government. The other point is embodied in a clause having regard to the prohibition of the liquor traffic. This is an open question with the Government, and at this stage it is only right to say that I shall take the liberty of seeking to have this provision struck out of the measure. In saying that, I do not, of course, pledge my colleague, the Vice-President of the Executive Council. I do not wish to discuss the clause in detail, but I must say that I regard it as an absurdity. I feel strengthened in that view when I read the evidence in Parliamentary Paper No. 47, 1904, which, to my mind, is altogether conclusive against prohibition; indeed, I regard that evidence as overwhelming. We have here expressions of opinion from the Bishop, the Acting-Administrator, and all those who were asked to give their testimony on the subject ; and, so far as regards the supply of liquor to the natives, there seems practically no foundation for any such provision. In fact, it is a miracle to me that so little complaint has been possible on this score; and in regard to the 500 or so of white settlers, I think we ought not, at any rate at present, to enforce prohibition. 7617 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Does the Attorney - General expect this immunity of the natives to go on for ever? 7617 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JO SI AH SYMON - If mischief arises in this connexion, we may legislate at any moment. I am not treating this as an essential part of the Bill one way or the other, but merely presenting my own personal view. As I say, if mischief arises in regard to the natives, or, for the matter of that, in regard to the white people, it will be time enough then to legislate on the subject. I know there are those who hold strong views on this question from the temperance stand-point. I recollect very well that not many years ago a reverend gentleman in the southern counties of England was so enthusiastically in favour of total abstinence, that on the public platform he expressed regret that our Lord and His Apostles had done so little for the cause of temperance. I know that those who advocate prohibition in New Guinea do not take any such extreme grounds, but I say that if there are good reasons for prohibition, they do not appear in the evidence to which I have alluded. 7617 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - Can the Attorney-General tell us how many licensed houses there are, and what the licence-fees are in New Guinea? I should like to have full particulars before I give a vote. 7617 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith -It is not known how many licensed houses there are. 7617 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSlAH SYMON - I cannot supply the information asked for. Those are the only two parts of the Bill which deal with matters of policy, irrespective of the system of government sought to be established. This is the first occasion, so far as I am aware, on which a pure democracy, such as exists under our Commonwealth Constitution, has had; an opportunity to show how it can colonize and govern a Dependency. My belief is that, under the provisions of this measure, we shall have a system which will enable the Commonwealth to successfully govern this Territory, and to show how well it can promote the best interests of the native races, and make this a valuable and remunerative Possession of the British Crown. Debate (on motion by Senator Staniforth Smith) adjourned. 7617 21:25:00 Senate adjourned at 9.25 p.m.