1906-08-03 2 3 0 SENATE 2295 0 Senate. 1906-08-03 The President took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 2295 Questions 2295 2295 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - I desire to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, if he will have circulated amongst honorable senators the full text of the reports which have already been presented by the Tariff Commission? Perhaps I may be permitted to explain that for some reason or other - no doubt through inadvertence - the reports which have been presented have not yet been circulated in their complete form. 2295 K0X Protectionist 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - I shall make inquiries. Personally, I see no objection to the reports being circulated. At a later stage, 2295 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - So very full and satisfactory an answer was given in another place yesterday that I do not propose to ask the question standing in my name, and relating to the consideration of the reports on the distilling and other industries. 2295 2295 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE -I desire to ask the Minister of Defence, without notice, whether, in view of the fact that there is plenty of business on the notice paper, and that there is likely to be more business presented soon, the Government have yet considered the advisability of asking the Senate to sit four days a week, so as to avoid the usual rush at the end of the session, and the sacrifice of measures? 2295 K0X Protectionist 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - That will depend upon what progress we make during the next week or so. 2295 2295 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN asked the Minister representing the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice - If any correspondence later than that already presented to the Senate has passed between the Government and the Government of South Australia relative to the transfer of the Northern Territory to the Commonwealth? If so, will he cause it to be laid upon the table of the House? 2295 K0X Protectionist 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - The answer to the honorable senator's questions is as follows : - There has bees no later correspondence than that referred to. in the honorable senator's question as already laid upon the table of the House. If any other correspondence should come forward I shall see that it is laid upon the table. 2295 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I am informed that, according to the statements of the Premier of South Australia, further negotiations are going on. 2295 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD -Negotiations are going on, but no communication has yet passed, I think. 2295 Punishment of a Witness. 2295 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD asked the Minister representing the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice - Referring to the recent dismissal of Jas. Stone, an employee of the British Australasian Tobacco Company, of Sydney, referred to by Senator Pearce, on the motion for the adjournment of the Senate on 21st June, and the promise of the Minister that all necessary inquiries would be made, and a report made to the Senate - Will the Minister say whether any such inquiry has been made, and, if so, when and under what circumstances? Is he aware that an arrangement was made between the managing director of the Company and the solicitors for the Union that an inquiry should be made by some independent person, but the Union, on further reflection, declined to be parties to any inquiry into the truth or otherwise of the statements made by Stone? 2296 K0X Protectionist 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - The answer to the honorable senators's questions is as follows : - The matter is in the hands of the Law Officers for advice.. I sent on the papers to the Attorney-General, but I have not yet received a reply. I believe that the matter is still being looked into. 2296 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Col NEILD - Arising out of the answer I desire to ask the Minister of Defence whether he is aware that the British Australasian Tobacco Company have addressed a communication to the Government asking for an inquiry into the facts of the case? 2296 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - I have seen such a report in the press. No doubt it has been forwarded to the Attorney-General, and very likely he will consult the Cabinet eventually. 2296 2296 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Is there a detective specially employed by the Post and Telegraph Department to investigate the affairs of the Department? If so, is such official allowed at any time, or under any circumstances, to divulge to newspaper reporters or any other persons any information before first giving such information to the Department? Has the Minister seen report in Daily Telegraph, Launceston, 23rd July, concerning alleged irregularities in the Department in Tasmania? 2296 KPE Protectionist 1 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - The answers to the honorable senator's questions are as follow : - Detectives are specially employed by the Postmaster-General's Department to investigate matters affecting the Department. Information regarding the result of their investigations should not be given to any person outside the Department without authority. Yes, and the matter is under investigation. 2296 miscellaneous Motion (by Senator Stewart) agreed to- That a return be laid upon the table of the Senate showing - The total amount of revenue collected since Federation by means of - Customs duties on sugar. Excise duties on sugar. The total amount paid as rebate and bounty to the growers of sugar by white labour from the date of Federation to the 30th of June last. The cost of paying the said sum as rebate and bounty. 2296 miscellaneous In Committee. Consideration resumed from 2nd August (vide page 2217), on motion by Senator Keating - That the Committee approves the agreement made and entered into on the 7th day of July, 1906, between the Postmaster-General, in and for the Commonwealth, and Sir James Laing and Sons Limited, for the carriage of mails between Adelaide and Brindisi, as per schedule, with the following modifications : - Article 2 - For a period of ten years, from and after the first day of February, 1908, the contractors shall in the manner and subject to the conditions specified in the said " general conditions of tender " by means of mail ships between the ports of Adelaide and Brindisi (which port of Brindisi is hereby substituted for Naples mentioned in the said "general conditions of tender," and shall be deemed to be " the approved port in Southern Europe " therein referred to), and between the ports of Brindisi and Adelaide and between all Other ports from which the said mail ships shall start or at which they shall call or arrive under the provisions of this agreement convey all mails which the Postmaster-General or any of his officers or agents shall from time . to time, and at any time or times, require to be conveyed. Upon which Senator Stewart had moved by way of amendment - That there be added to the motion - Proviso to article 2 - On line7, after the word "between," where it occurs a second time, to insert, " the ports of Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, and Hobart, and." 2296 KLZ NEW SOUTH WALES FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No doubt honorable senators would have been glad to have come to a division last night at an early hour if it had been possible. It is well that we should have the fullest opportunity to express our views as to the advisability of making the amendment. I think that the general -opinion outside is that if the contract be carried out in its entirety, the Government may very fairly be congratulated. It has been surrounded with a certain amount of mystery, and doubts have been expressed as to whether the contract will be carried out, and also as to whether it is not merely a speculative agreement. The Government have to accept the responsibility of having, after complete inquiry, satisfied themselves that the contractors are prepared and able to carry out the agreement. And if the Senate is in' a position to show that a mistake is being made by the Government, it is quite justified in doing so. We do not possess, however, the same opportunities of entering into the details as do the Government. If the con- tractors were not able to give effect to the contract, that fact would not become known to us until late in the coming year, and at a. time when it would be utterly impossible for us to make other than hasty arrangements, possibly to the injury of the Commonwealth, for a mail service. The responsibility for such a failure would rest upon the Government primarily. 2297 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - If the honorable senator refers to clause .39 of the general conditions of tender, he will see that it was provided that in case the contractor should have to build ships, the Postmaster-General should have the opportunity of satisfying himself that the contract was being carried out; and, if satisfactory progress was not being made, could increase the guarantee from ,£25,000 to ,£50,000. 2297 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD -Col. GOULD. - I observe that the Postmaster-General has the right to increase the guarantee, and also to cancel the contract. It must be borne in mind, however, that where a specific penalty is provided for, with the power of cancelling" the contract, no further action can be taken thereafter, no matter what damage may be caused to the Commonwealth. I regret, that, from first to fast, there has not been a fuller amount of confidence placed in the Senate. First of all, we heard that a gentleman in Melbourne was entering into negotiations with the Government. Whether he holds a power of attorney from Sir James Laing and Sons, or whether, under the articles of association, that company has the right to enter into a mail contract or not, we do not know. No doubt the idea is that after securing a contract two or three ship-building firms will come together for the purpose of building ships and forming a company. 2297 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Is it possible that they will come under the "combine" provisions of the Anti -Trust Bill? 2297 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I suppose that they will have to trust to the leniency of the Government in that regard. However, assuming everything to be in order, the subsidy which the Government are contracting to pay is unquestionably moderate. Of course, it has been fixed in consideration of the terms specified in the agreement, that is to say, for the carriage of mails between Brindisi and Adelaide, within certain periods, and on certain occasions. We may take it for granted that if the terms of the contract were varied, as proposed by Senator Stewart, the contractors would very naturally expect to be paid a consideration for extending the service, and accepting additional burdens. If the contract be a good one, as it stands, it will be utterly foolish of honorable senators to attempt to superadd conditions that would involve a cancellation of it, and necessitate the Government setting to work with a view to prepare a fresh contract. If, on the other hand, as Senator Stewart says, the vessels will come to Melbourne and Sydney, and therefore ought to go to Queensland, the reply is that they will not come to Melbourne and Sydney unless they consider that trade demands that they should do so. If trade demands it, unquestionably the vessels will be brought on; and just in the same way. if trade demands that they should go to Brisbane they will go. But if the honorable senator says that to get the ships past Sydney it is necessary to give them an additional subsidy, he gives his case away, because he admits that they will not obtain sufficient trade at Brisbane, and will require an additional sum of money to recompense them for going there. With such a prospect in front of us, it would be utterly suicidal to superadd conditions that would throw the whole question into the crucible again. Senator Guthrie has been very strong upon the necessity of making provision for the purpose of taking our butter and other produce to the old world. No doubt it is very desirable that every possible effort should be. made in that direction. But the States have declined to guarantee a certain amount of freight, and therefore the Commonwealth Government has not felt itself bound to take further action. I think that' the Government has been wise in that respect, because it has not the same intimate knowledge of the work as the States Governments must have; and if the States Governments find themselves unable to enter into any condition of the character how much more difficult would it be for the Commonwealth Government to do anything of the kind. Let us look at the matter all round. These vessels are to be of 11,000 tons, and we are told that they will provide a large amount of refrigerating space. Why will they do that? For the simple reason that it is recognised that the line cannot be expected to pay unless every possible provision is made for conducting a profitable trade. 2297 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The Government has stipulated for large ships. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - The' Government says, "We want our mails carried in a certain time, and we want a good class of ship; we know perfectly well that if we are to have swift ships, with a long sea journey before them, they must be large, in order that they may carry a large quantity of coal. They must also provide a large amount of accommodation! for passengers and freight, if they are to pay. I cannot conceive that any ship-owning firm would be prepared to take up a mail contract for £1 25,000 between Adelaide and Brindisi unless great inducements were held out to them. The great inducements in this case are freight and passenger money. The contractors have to build first-class ships, and provide accommodation to compete with well-equipped lines. I believe that the vessels will be thoroughly up-to-date. I do not believe that the men who are at the back of this firm are such fools as to enter into a contract of this kind unless they see a reasonable prospect of making the enterprise a success. The sum which we are going to pay them is a mere bagatelle, compared with the expenditure involved. I do not believe that there is a single steamship which, goes from Australia to Great Britain by way of the Suez Canal unless it receives a subsidy. Honorable senators know why that is. 2298 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - The .Suez Canal dues will amount to quite as much as the subsidy of £125,000. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - I will not go so far as that. 2298 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - I have worked it out. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I know that the dues are very high, and that upon the class of ships now trading to Australia they come to something like ,£78,000 or £80.000 per annum. I think that a vessel of the Ophir class pays about £3, 000 for the trip home and back again. Twenty-six ships of that kind would pay £78,000. The vessels to be provided for by the contractors will be larger than the present mail-ships. Senator Smith tells us that the Suez Canal dues will amount to as much as the subsidy. Whether that is so I do not know. 2298 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - The dues will amount to about the sum which the Government will pay. 2298 K1U 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator Pulsford - That is also my estimate. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I have seen Senator Pulsford^ figures, but I think that some reductions have recently been made in the Suez Canal dues. 2298 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - It depends largely on the number of passengers. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I think that dues are paid on the tonnage. 2298 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Eight shillings per head per passenger is also paid. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - At any rate we have the fact that the company would' have to pay from ,£80,000 to ,£120,000 in> Suez Canal dues alone. 2298 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Which they would! have to pay whether they carried mails or not. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- No ; they would not go through the Suez: Canal unless they were subsidized.. They could go round the Cape.. The vessels of the White Star, Aberdeen, and Lund lines take the Cape route, and so avoid the Suez Canal dues. But the great charm to the butter men is that they are able to sen3 their produce by the shortest and quickest route possible; and that necessitates vessels going by the Suer Canal. 2298 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The South African, trade is a very considerable factor in the Cape route. 2298 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- No doubt it is, but the vessels which take that route have no inducement to go "by the canal. The Messageries, Norddeutscher, the Peninsular and Oriental, and Orient lines are the only lines that use the Suez Canal. If we want this contract to be carried out we ought not to put any difficulties in the way. The vessels will naturally call at those ports where they can pick up the greatest amount of trade, and will take precious good care to land their produce from any ' port in Australia at the port of destination in Great Britain within as brief a time as possible. It is to their own advantage to do so. A great deal of 'debate has taken place over the question of registered tonnage. I do not think that any honorable senator who has taken the trouble to Took ' into the matter can quarrel with what Senator Guthrie has said in regard 'tothat matter. He has pointed out trie requirements of the Merchant Shipping Act, and has shown how registered tonnage is to be ascertained. I think his observations! are fairly conclusive as to the way registered tonnage is determined. ' I have- here a work on shipping, entitled Know Your Own Ship, by Walton, in which he points out how registered tonnage is arrived at. He says that it is obtained after certain allowed deductions have been made from the gross tonnage. He points out that deductions are made for crew space, master's accommodation, engineers and officers' accommodation, sail room, boatswain's store, wheel room, donkey boiler, deck shelter, and propelling space. A case has been cited in regard to one of the Peninsular and Oriental Company's vessels where 9,500 tons is the gross register, whilst the permitted deductions bring the registered tonnage down to 4,800. That is the registered tonnage of such vessels as the Marmora and the Mongolia. 2299 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Lloyds' register is what is relied upon. 2299 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - No, it is not. An example is given in this book of the case of a screw collier. All her measurements are quoted. Her gross tonnage is 964 tons. Then various deductions are made such as propelling space 367.5, chart room 5, bridge accommodation for officers 54, crew space 23, boatswains' store 10, making the total deductions 459.5. These deductions from the gross tonnage leave the registered tonnage 504.5. The vessels under the contract now being considered will, it is stated, be of a registered tonnage of 11,000. If that were to be taken literally, it would mean that the ships would be of 16,000 tons gross tonnage. But I am quite satisfied that they are not intended to be of more than 11,000 gross tonnage. The possibility is that their registered tonnage will be something like 5,000 or 6,000. 2299 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The contract does not say so. 2299 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I admit that the honorable senator is quite right in that respect, but I believe that the intention is that the ships shall only have a gross measurement of 11,000 tons. 2299 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Then the contractors do not know their own business, and are merely showing how ignorant they are. 2299 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I have no doubt that Senator de Largie has formed an honest conviction as to the meaning of the term. He is entitled to his opinion. But the shipping authorities are against him. 2299 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - I have looked them up. 2299 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator Mcgregor - After all, what does it matter ? 2299 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- I do not think it matters very much. I dare say that if Senator McGregor and I wanted to take a trip to the old country and got on board a 11,000 ton ship, we should be very comfortable. I urge that we should not impose any additional restrictions in this contract, unless we wish to see it put an end to. Senator Dobson would like the ships to call at Hobart. So should we all. 2299 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - They will go there right enough. 2299 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- They will go when there is freight for them. But why should we say that we will compel them to go there, knowing perfectly well that if we do they will expect to receive some consideration for the additional restrictions placed upon their movements. Therefore, let us put the amendment on one side, and adopt the article as it now stands. We can consider amendments later if we deem it necessary to do so. 2299 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY . - The whole tone of this debate indicates that honorable senators regard this agreement as too good to be true, in view of the fact that in the past we have not been able to obtain such favorable conditions as are now offered. If those who tender are offering something more than we require, or ask for, at the price we are prepared to pay, I do not see that we have any ground for complaint. Any honorable senator would admit that if when he goes to purchase an article, he is asked to pay less than he expected, he will usually come to the conclusion that he has made a fairly' good bargain; the vendor may have "fallen in," but if both parties are satisfied, what complaint can be made? I may say at once that I intend to support, not the Senator Stewart of this year, but the Senator Stewart of last year. 2299 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Has Queensland seven representatives here? 2299 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - I do not know that that is the case; but last year Senator Stewart represented clearly the opinion of the people of Queensland, and I am now taking the same stand that he then took, because I realize that the agreement before us gives us exactly what we were asking for. I am not prepared to support a claim for something else, when we are. apparently, getting what we originally desired. The contract under discussion last year definitely stated that the vessels should call at Melbourne and Sydney, on both the outward and inward trips, but no provision was made for their calling at Brisbane. 2300 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The contract under discussion last year also provided for cool storage. 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - And for certain space to be reserved for produce at the different ports. 2300 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - No, it did not. 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - That was practically provided for by the contract of last year, because a certain amount of space had to be reserved for Brisbane, and that necessarily limited the space available in Sydney and Melbourne. 2300 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Is the honorable senator prepared to give a guarantee that Queensland will not make t'he same claim that was made under the other contract? 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - Queensland will make no claim for mileage under this agreement, because it is not provided that the vessels s'hall pass Adelaide. Senator Stewart clearly showed the position last year; but now, apparently, he is able to read in this memorandum of agreement much that is not there. Last year, in discussing the Orient mail contract, Senator Stewart, as reported on page 3667 of Hansard, said - The contract is the only document which we have to consider. That is the position I take now. It says that the company must go on to Melbourne and Sydney, and that whether ic goes further is a matter for itself to decide. On the return journey, it must also call at Sydney and Melbourne. That is what we, in Queensland, complain of ; we object to Melbourne and Sydney being made ports of call, and to the Commonwealth paying for the company's teats calling at those ports for trade purposes. All that we have to rely on is the agreement before us; and" I am not able to see that it provides for the vessels passing Adelaide. Senator Stewart' yesterday told us that the Prime Minister had stated that there was an arrangement or understanding that the- vessels should call at Melbourne and Svdney. I do not know whether there is an arrangement or understanding to that effect. 2300 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Does the honorable senator not accept the Prime Minister's word ? 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - There -is nothing to that effect in the5 agreement. 2300 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The Prime Minister has publicly made the statement. 2300 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The position is that we are asked to adopt this agreement, and not something that has been said outside. 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - That is so. The Prime Minister said that the gentleman representing the contractors in the old country had stated in a letter that the boats would go to Sydney and Melbourne. 2300 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Exactly. 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - But that is not an understanding entered into with the Prime Minister ; and. therefore, we could not compel the vessels to go from Adelaide to Melbourne, or from Melbourne to Sydney. If the Prime Minister has entered into an understanding of the sort, I contend that neither he nor those who are aiding and abetting him, are fit to be in public life, much less to guide the destinies of Australia. Since last year, there has been a change in the State Ministry of Queensland. I then saw the State Premier, and two or three members of his Cabinet, and the position they took up was that if the Commonwealth entered into a contract for mail purposes only, they had no ground for complaint. That is the attitude which "is taken by the present Premier of Queensland, as shown bv the report of a newspaper interview with him, read by Senator Keating last night. Senator Stewart says that he has been able to convert the Premier of Queensland to his way of thinking; but I do not think that is the case. It is not long since the Queensland Premier and Senator Stewart were like the Siamese twins ; where one was the other could always be found, and their opinions coincided. Apparently, however, those two gentlemen are at variance on this question of the mail contract. 2300 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - No; we are at one, only I have discovered that this is not purely a mail contract. 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - Senator Stewart now tells us that he has discovered something which does not appear in the agreement : but he has not pointed to one word which can be said to indicate that this is not purely a mail contract. 2300 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - What about the stipulation as to the vessels being of I I,000 tons? 2300 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - If Senator Stewart is of opinion that ships of 11,000 tons are not desirable, he is at liberty to move an amendment providing that no vessels over a certain tonnage, which he regards as high enough, should be employed in the service. The honorable senator has told us that one objection he has to the contract is that it does not apply to the carriage of produce. 2301 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - No. 2301 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - That was the statement first made by Senator Stewart when he submitted his amendment. I admit that the honorable senator has shifted his ground since then, and now contends that this is more than' a mail contract. As I said before, I am supporting the Senator Stewart of last year, and I think it better to make my position very clear. I did not say much in the course of the debate on the Orient mail contract, for the simple reason that the honorable senator represented my opinions, perhaps better than I could have done. In the debate on the Orient mail contract, Senator Stewart, as reported on page 3669 of Hansard, said - What I suggest to the Government is this : In any future contract they should omit all reference to the cold storage of goods, and confine it exclusively to the carriage of mails. That is their business. Everything else referred to in the contract is entirely outside their province in dealing with mail matters. On the same page, the honorable senator is further reported - We ought, I say, religiously to avoid mixing up the carriage of goods with the carriage of mails. We ought to confine ourselves rigidly to our own business. If the people of Victoria are anxious that these mail steamers should call at Melbourne, the people of New South Wales that they should call at Sydney, and the people of Queensland that they should call at Brisbane for trade purposes, let the States Governments pay, if any payments have to be made. That is exactly the position I take in regard to the agreement before us. You, Mr. Chairman, will remember that in the Queensland Parliament, at one time, there was an honorable member who spoke on one side of a question and voted on the other, and that, when he was taxed with the fact, he said he regarded it as a very convenient arrangement. That gentleman pointed out that in his district some centres of population were in favour of the proposal in question, whilst other centres were against it, and the convenience lay in the fact that, when before the electors who were in favour, he could point to the division-list, and, when in the other centres, he could quote his strong opposition speeches. I regard Senator Stewart as occupying exactly similar ground in connexion with this mail contract. 2301 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Why so much about Senator Stewart? 2301 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY -I am giving reasons for supporting, not the Senator Stewart of this session, but the Senator Stewart of last session. 2301 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Things are different now. 2301 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Apparently, Senator Stewart is different. 2301 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - I do not know, but it appears to me that Senator Guthrie's interjection may apply to Senator Stewart. In Queensland, at the present time, people are beginning to produce for export, not only in the neighbourhood of Brisbane, but all along the coast- not only on the Darling Downs, and in districts below the range, but also at Wide Bay, and in the neighbourhood of Rockhampton, where Senator Stewart himself comes from. Even if these mail vessels did go to Brisbane, they would not benefit Rockhampton one bit. 2301 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - Oh, yes, they would. 2301 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY -'The honorable senator knows as well as I do that the calling of the vessels at Brisbane would not benefit Rockhampton in connexion with the carriage of produce. The country is being opened up for dairying purposes at the back of Mackay and Cairns, and the same may be said of the Atherton scrub; and it is believed that, eventually, shipping facilities will be required for those districts. What the people interested in this development are advocating to-day is a contract with some shipping line, which shall start at Brisbane or Sydney, and collect all the produce along the coast, for export to the old country. So far as I can judge from the press, negotiations have been entered into with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam; Navigation Company for accommodation in this connexion. Because the Government realize that it is not in the interests of their State to pay additional subsidies for boats that will take the produce of the States only from one corner. What is required is that the boats of such a service shall pick up produce from one end of Queensland to the other, and take it in a direct line to the old country. I am satisfied that this contract provides for nothing but the carriage of mails, and that these boats need not go a foot beyond Adelaide unless the company please. Last year Senator Stewart said that if we did not make special provision for it in the mail contract then under consideration, the mail boats would go to ports beyond Adelaide for the sake pf the trade, but last night the honorable senator said that this contract is not confined to the carriage of mails, and that there is an understanding between the Prime Minister and the company that the boats are to call at Melbourne and Sydney. The honorable senator has changed his ground, and has appealed to the representatives of Victoria and New South Wales in the Senate to support his amendment on the ground that if the New Zealand Government hold out sufficient inducements, these boats may go direct from Adelaide to New Zealand, pick up cargo there, and, missing Sydney and Melbourne, go back to Adelaide for the mails, without calling at other Australian ports. If that can be done under this contract, where is the honorable senator's evidence that it is anything more than a mail contract to Adelaide? From the way in which the honorable member has advocated consideration for the interests of the producers of Queensland, one might be pardoned for imagining that he would be up for election this time. At one time the honorable senator contended that it is the duty of the States Governments to do all that is necessary to provide means of transport for the benefit of the producers. I believe that it is the duty of all Governments to do whatever they can to provide facilities for the export of produce. Some fifteen or sixteen days ago a deputation of representatives of Queensland, of whom I was one, waited on the Prime Minister in connexion with this matter. The honorable and learned gentleman told us - and it appeared in the press later on, and has been confirmed by the statement made bv the Premier of Queensland - that the Commonwealth Government realized that it was their duty to enter into a contract for a postal service only, and that they had nothing to do with the export of produce. But he added that he had communicated with the Governments of the States, asking whether they could not arrange amongst themselves to secure that the boats engaged' in the service should be provided with certain cold storage accommodation. and should call at Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. He explained that the Premiers " of the States did not see "their way to adopt his suggestion. The report of an interview with the Premier of Queensland, to which reference has already been made bears out the statement of the Prime Minister to the very letter. I think that the best arrangement that can be made has been made. It is not necessary for us to consider anything but a mail contract. Of course we desire, that the boats should run to Melbourne, Sydney, and, if possible, to Brisbane, but if the Governments of the States concerned will not enter into negotiations to make proper provision for the transport by these boats of the produce of Australia, we cannot be blamed for that. I am aware that in connexion with the export of butter, and other perishable produce, regularity of shipment is an important consideration to the producer. At the same time I think with the Senator Stewart of last year, that it is the duty of the States Governments to make arrangements for the export of produce, and it is the duty of the Commonwealth Government to make the necessary arrangements for the carriage of the mails. One reason which Senator Stewart gave in support of his contention that this is more than a mail contract, was that the boats are compelled by its terms to proceed from the Mediterranean port to some port in the United Kingdom. If the honorable senator is prepared to move an amendment, binding the company down to a service between Adelaide and Brindisi only, I shall be prepared to vote for it. 2302 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - And not go to England at all ? 2302 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - The boats could go to England if the company pleased. 2302 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - But the honorable senator would not put that in the contract? 2302 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - I am prepared to make this purely a mail contract, and to permit the company, after they have -.Ions the work they undertake to do under the contract, to send their boats anywhere they please. 2302 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator would not stipulate, as this contract does, that the boats should go from Brindisi to London ? 2302 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - If Senator Guthrie will move to omit that provision, I shall be prepared to vote for his amendment. 2302 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - What about the mail matter other than letters? 2302 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - I am perfectly satisfied that, whether we make provision for it in the contract or not, the boats engaged in this service will go to England. But, to be logical, Senators Guthrie and Stewart should be prepared to move that the voyages of the boats under this con- tract should begin and end at Brindisi and Adelaide. They contend that what we require is purely a mail service. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I never said anything of the sort. My whole argument was that the contract should cover cold storage. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - The honorable senator is supporting Senator Stewart in his amendment. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Yes, that the boats should go to Brisbane. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - On, the ground that this contract is something more than a mail contract. If Senators Stewart and Guthrie believe that the omission of the provision requiring the boats to go from Brindisi to a port in the United Kingdom will make this a purely mail contract, they have only to move to that effect, and I shall be prepared to support them. They ask why we should interfere with business that is not ours, and they contend that the carriage of the mails being a function of the Federal Government, we should make provision for that, and nothing more. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator is entirely misrepresenting my views. I do not desire that this should be restricted to a mail contract. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - What the honorable senator desires to do, apparently, is to revert to the terms of the contract proposed last year, and make provision for cold storage, but he is not concerned with any provisions requiring the boats to go beyond Adelaide to Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I am supporting Senator Stewart's amendment requiring these boats to go to Brisbane. The honorable senator is making ridiculous statements. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - Last year, Senator Guthrie was the strongest opponent in the Senate of the Government proposal to pay even mileage rates on the voyages of the Orient steamers to Brisbane, in order to reduce to some extent the liability which the Queensland Government had accepted. The State Government- of Queensland agreed to pay the Orient Steam Navigation Company a subsidy of £26,000 a year to continue the voyages of their steamers to Brisbane, and when, on the representations of Queensland representatives/, a proposal was made bv the Government that Queensland should be credited with a mileage rate of 3s. 7d., amounting in all to something like £4,700 a year, and the boats be free of pilotage and light dues, Senator Guthrie strongly opposed the concession. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I can tell the honorable senator all about what I did last year. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - Let the honorable senator turn up Hansard and read what he said1. He asked whether it was decent for the Queensland Government to make such proposals to the Orient Steam Navigation Company. 2303 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - To cut the throats of Queensland seamen. 2303 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY - The Queensland Government desired that the Orient boats should call at Brisbane, because it had previously been necessary for produce exported from Queensland and requiring cold storage to be sent in the coastal boats to Sydney, and transhipped there. It was because they desired to avoid the necessity for the transhipment of this produce in Sydney that they offered' these concessions to the company. This contract provides exactly what we were asking for-last year. It provides for a mail service to Adelaide. As a matter of fact, the boats engaged under this contract, need not go any further. As Senator Stewart pointed out last night, the New Zealand Government might offer the company a subsidy of £30,000 or '£40,000 -a year, and they might send their boats direct from Adelaide to New Zealand, and then back 10 Adelaide to pick up the mails on their return voyage to Brindisi. So long as they are free to go where they like when they have finished our work, I am prepared to vote for the contract almost as it stands. 2303 JVC Tasmania 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON . - I am a supporter of the amendment, and I should like to indicate the reasons which influence my vote. I am also disposed to support the amendment, which I understand is to be moved bv Senator Guthrie. I am altogether opposed to the idea of making this entirely a mail contract. That is contrary to practice and common sense, and certainly the Government are not adopting the best means at their disposal for safeguarding the producing interests. It has been stated by honorable senators, including, I think, Senator Keating, that every day is of great importance, and' that if we are not careful, we shall upset the contract. If we did upset the contract, what harm could it do? I believe that it would be wise to arrange at once with the Orient. Steam Navigation Company to renew its contract for a year, and to call for three alternative tenders. In my opinion, the Government made a very great mistake when they failed to grasp the opportunity they had of helping the producers. I quite approve of the action of the Prime Minister in communicating with the States and asking for their views as to the provision of cool storage. But because the States naturally shrank from undertaking to guarantee a certain amount of freight, that was no reason why the Government of the Commonwealth should say, " Thank God.! we can now go in for only a mail contract and leave the other matter to the States." I believe that every State would welcome a contract which bound eight or nine magnificent shins with cool storage to call regularly and punctually at the chief ports in the Commonwealth. But that is quite a different thing from asking the States to undertake a liability in regard to freight. We all know that the producers can get their produce taken to the old country by outside boats. It does not follow, of course, that they would always be able to make such arrangements. 2304 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The producers would have said, " Thank God that we have a Federal Parliament." 2304 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - Yes. They would then have derived from the contract a benefit, whereas now it gives them nothing. Is it not business and commonsense for the producers to wish to have two strings to their Low? In my opinion, the Government should have called for tenders first for a mail contract pure and simple, second for a mail contract with cool storage accommodation, and an obligation to call at all ports including Brisbane, and to charge a certain freight for meat, butter, fruit, &c, and third a contract with the rate of freight a little below that fixed in the mail contract, but higher than that charged on outside ocean liners. Suppose that the freight on the mail steamers was 3s. 3d. a case for fruit, and that producers could get outside boats to take fruit at 2s. 6d. a case, had I been Postmaster-General, I should have called for tenders Tor the carriage of fruit at a freight of 2s.9d. or 3s. a case. By that means the Government would have secured a tender which would have saved£30,000, or , £40,000, or £50,000 a year to the producers. Was there any commonsense in asking for one kind of service when they might have asked for three separate kinds of service? Is there any commonsense in calling for only a mail service when they might have felt the tone of the market as regards a freight service? I regret that the Government missed that opportunity. As regards the mail contract itself, they have made a most excellent bargain. But I desire to get something more than a mail contract if it be possible. I quite agree with Senator Stewart that the contract as it stand's does not show much evidence of being a combined contract. Judging from statements which have been made elsewhere as well as here, it is quite certain that Ministers do look forward to the contractors supplying, to a great extent, boats with cool storage. It is provided in the contract that the plans of the ships shall be submitted for the approval of the Government. We are assured that the ships will contain ample cool storage space, and will be bound, in their own interest, to go to the various ports. Why should not all those things be provided for in the contract? Senator Turley has said that the boats would not be bound to go beyond Adelaide. But he knows that they would go on to other ports. He would let the boats stop at the port in the Mediterranean, and would vote that they should not be bound to go on to England. In my opinion, if he were to vote in that way, he would make a great mistake. No one can foretell what is likely to happen during the next ten years. Suppose that these eight or nine magnificent ships could stop at Adelaide? What might happen? A war might break out in another part of the world, and the result of the war might depend upon the ability to get boats for carrying soldiers and stores. By cablegram some boats of the contracting company might be offered an enormous sum to undertake a freight voyage, and persons who were looking, for the vessels to go to Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane might be disappointed. Why? Because we had not taken the precaution of providing in the contract that the boats should do as our mail boats have always done. 2304 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The mail boats have never gone past Sydney. 2304 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - Let us take the other suggestion of Senator Turley that there is no occasion to require the boats to go beyond the port in the Mediterranean. Would not that be a great mistake, too? Have not the travel- ling public for years had the option of being carried to the London docks in the mail boats, if they so wished? It is only rich squatters who can afford to get out at Maples and take the train overland. 2305 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The boats would go on just the same. 2305 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - No doubt thousands of passengers would be greatly disappointed if they could not proceed in the boats to the London docks. Is that the kind of contract which would redound to the credit and business tact of the Government and Parliament of the Commonwealth? Certainly not. Why should we accept a contract under which such advantages would not be guaranteed? I quite admit that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred those advantages would be offered, but at times the contractors might not run their boats to the various ports. It would be st mistake not to guard against a contingency of that kind. 2305 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Does not the honorable senator think that the company would took passengers from Australia to England? 2305 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - I believe that they would. But suppose that a boat had very few passengers, and that most of them wished to land at Naples, or had booked to that port. It might not suit the contractors to go on with half-a-dozen passengers. 2305 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - If the contractors had booked the passengers to England they would have to pay their passage to England from Naples. 2305 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - We have evidence that the Government have been considering certain provisions in which Senator Stewart, Senator Guthrie, and .myself are interested, but they have not embodied them in the contract. In my opinion, they have committed an error of judgment. I should hold up both hands to-morrow with delight if they would renew the contract with the Orient Steam Navigation Company for another year, and call for fresh tenders. Coming to the provisional contract itself, it appears to me to be a kind of promoters' " spec." It reminds me of a concession for a railway of which we have had considerable experience in Tasmania. This is nothing more than a kind of commercial concession which certain gentlemen in England will carry out if they can float their undertaking with a capital of £4,000,000, but which, if they do not succeed in die attempt, they will drop like a hot potato, and forfeit the amount of their bond. That possibility stands out plainly on the face of the contract. With regard to the question of registered tonnage, I think that Senator Guthrie must be right in his contention, although, at first, I agreed with the view of Senator de Largie, because the Merchant Shipping Act absolutely defines the term. In my opinion, the contractors have not seen one line of this contract. It has 'been negotiated by their agent and solicitor, and only the salient points have been communicated to the contractors by cable. The omission of the word " gross " is enough to damn the contract. If the contractors were held to their agreement, they would have to build vessels of about 20,000 tons register, and they would have all their work cut out to provide a net tonnage of 11,000 tons. 2305 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Is it a bad thing to get more than we bargain for? 2305 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - This is merely a promoter's "spec," and the contractors will only carry it out if they can place the undertaking on good terms in the London market. At the present time, they are acting with three other large ship-builders. They would have to find a capital of £4,000,000 before they could commence to build, and unless that could be found the contract would be dropped. 2305 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - They could do with a fourth of that sum, because they could issue debentures and do all that sort of thing. 2305 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - I know that the contractors could issue debentures, and borrow money on the ships, but at the same time they would have to find at least £2,000,000. It is estimated by some persons that at first the service would be run at a loss of £100,000 a year, or more. We have, as a guide, the experience of the Orient Steam Navigation Company. I take it that that company would not withdraw all their ships from the Australian trade, and that, after having traded here for twenty of thirty years, some of their friends would be loyal to them. If they cannot make the service pay regularly, but can only declare a dividend now and then, is the new company, with magnificent ships, and with more dues to pay, likely to succeed, in view of the fact that a few of the Orient Steam Navigation Company's boats would remain in the Australian trade and compete with them? It appears to me that the contractors are bound to lose money. We have no reasonable assurance that a company will be floated, and, of course, if it were not, the contract would not be carried out. I do not think that the ships ought to be compelled to go to Hobart or Brisbane, or to go anywhere outside the mail route, unless they had a guarantee that their expenses to and from would be covered by the freight. It would be of no use for the boats to call at Brisbane simply to satisfy our friends from that State if the producers did not offer sufficient freight to pay the expenses of the voyage. I do not advocate that the boats should call at' Hobart all the year round. I only desire them to call at that port during the fruit season, when I am certain that they would on each trip get freightage of £2,000, £2,500, or £3,000. As the cost of going from Sydney to Hobart instead of to Melbourne would be about £300, the contractors would make an enormous gain on each voyage. 2306 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Did the Premier of Tasmania give any inducement to the Prime Minister to go on with his proposal? 2306 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - The Premier of Tasmania, I understand, declined to give a guarantee in regard to cool storage. Fruit-growers have told me that they prefer to make their own arrangements for space. But I have to look ahead, and to think of things which, perhaps, they have overlooked. If, by agreeing to pay a subsidy of £125,000 a year, I could get the vessels to go to Hobart, why should I not work in that direction? 2306 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Which the honorable senator knows he cannot get. 2306 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - I believe that if we were to ask the contractors to send the boats to Hobart during the fruit season, they would not charge one shilling more for carrying our mails. Why? Because they would make a positive gain in going to that port. In any case, the chances are as ninety-nine to one that the boats will go there. But why not make them do what the mail companies have always done? With regard to Brisbane it must be apparent, I think, that if the vessels go there, they will pay expenses and soon earn a profit. The Government will not hear the last of it until they do go to Brisbane. That is my prophecy. I do not know that we are calle'd upon to alter the contract against ourselves, but I certainly think that we ought to put the word " gross " before the word " tonnage.'' 2306 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - No; leave it as it is, but define the term more clearly. 2306 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - If we leave it as it is, the Government will probably be called upon to see that the contract is carried out, and then it will be abandoned. I have looked through Lloyd's Register, where the tonnage of every vessel is mentioned. I find that there are particulars of gross tonnage, tonnage below deck, and deck tonnage. I consider that these vessels will be of 5,500 registered tonnage, and that we ought to be perfectly satisfied with that. There has been a slip in the contract. I shall support the amendment. 2306 KAH New South Wales 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER . - I was very pleased yesterday to learn that the contractors had agreed to an alteration providing that an extension of the term of the contract should not take place without the approval of Parliament. There was, from my point of view, a weak point in the contract previously. There is very little doubt of the existence of general distrust in connexion with this contract. I attribute that largely to the Government. When tenders were called for, the Government permitted the names of the tenderers to be kept secret, even after a tender had been accepted. 2306 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - That was one of the conditions upon which tenders were invited. It is a very usual condition. 2306 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - The effect of the practice is that, though no one knows anything about an unsuccessful tenderer, a successful one is enabled to hawk the contract about all over the world. The impression is that that will be the effect in connexion with this agreement. 2306 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Is it not likely that that feeling has been fostered by unsuccessful tenderers? 2306 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Does the Minister share it himself? 2306 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - No. 2306 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - It may be a wrong impression, but certainly it does prevail. When I was a boy, in Scotland, we used to be told that certain confections were too sweet to be wholesome. This seems to be so good a contract that it makes people a wee bit suspicious. If it is genuine, it is very good. Will the Minister kindly give us information as to the amount of the unsuccessful tenders, including the one which came in too late? I cannot support Senator Stewart's amendment. I cannot see that what he requires has anything to do with a mail contract. Nor can I understand why he should find fault with the size of the vessels. As a matter of fact, when the Government calls for tenders for an inland postal contract, it expects that the coaches will provide room for so many passengers. . It is also to be expected that these mail steamers will provide accommodation for passengers. People who can afford it prefer to travel to Europe by mail steamer. It seems to me that the size of the steamers is to be explained by a provision in the contract which most honorable senators appear to have overlooked, and which I will therefore take the liberty of reading - The Postmaster-General may at any time during the continuance of the contract purchase any or all of the mail-ships at a valuation - or may charter the same at a rate of hire to be agreed upon with the contractor, or failing any such agreement as to a valuation or rate to be decided by arbitration, and the contractor shall not sell any mail-ship to any person other than the Postmaster-General without first giving the Postmaster-General a reasonable opportunity of purchasing same, either at a valuation to be agreed upon, or to be decided by arbitration, or at the price he is willing to sell it at to such other persons. Provided always that if the Postmaster-General exercises the right to purchase or charter all the mail-ships employed under the contract, the contract shall thereupon be determined, and such determination shall not give the contractor any claim for compensation. I believe that that is the real reason why vessels of so large a size have been provided for. It is hoped that some day we shall have a national system of our own. 2307 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - That is one of the very best conditions in the contract. 2307 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - It is a very good reason for supporting it from the point of view of honorable senators opposite, and I am surprised that those who have preceded me in the debate have not alluded to that point. 2307 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - We are satisfied with it ; that is why we make no noise about it. 2307 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - From their point of view, honorable senators are no doubt right. Even from my own point of view, if I am making a bargain, I like it to be a good one. Another reason why it probably suits the contractors to accept what is apparently a small subsidy, is that they are shipbuilders, and may see their way to make profits on the ships, even if they lose something on the contract. When they are building ships costing about £4,000,000, they may consider that they can afford to lose something on the contract for a few years. But that is our advantage, and I see no objection to the Commonwealth getting the benefit of a good bargain. With regard to the vessels calling at Sydney and Melbourne, I am quite satisfied that private enterprise can supply sufficient accommodation for our produce. If these vessels do not see fit to call at our principal ports, we will not be dependent solely upon them, though we should welcome them if they came. We shall still have the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, and the White Star ships, and I hope we shall continue to have the Orient Steam Navigation Company's vessels. We are well assured that adequate facilities will be available for the carriage of our produce to England. I quite agree with Senator Smith that the Suez Canal dues alone will amount to as much as the price we are to pay for the carriage of our mails. I went to Europe in the Bremen, 11,500 tons, five years ago. 2307 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - What ! the honorable senator travelled in a German ship? 2307 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - Certainly. I am a free-trader, and I go by the vessel that will supply me with the best accommodation for my money. One of the officers assured me that the Suez Canal dues on the round trip came to £7,000 approximately. If the new vessels are going to be anything like the size we expect them to be, I shall not be surprised if the dues for each round trip come to at least £6,000. Multiply that sum by twenty-six, and you find that the dues paid each year will amount to more than the subsidy stipulated for in the contract. I am very glad that the term is not to be longer than ten years. I hope that Parliament will not agree to any extension beyond that time. It may be that those of us who live will see railways constructed to Fremantle and Port Darwin by the end of ten years. Then we shall be able to get our European mails carried in three days shorter time. We may even have balloons to carry our mails. I have lately seen in the Queensland newspapers - I get them regularly, and am not sure that I have not a small interest in one of them - that the State Government recognise that their wisest plan will be to encourage, ships to go by the Torres Strait route rather than bring their produce round the south of the Continent. I am glad to notice that movement. I cannot see my way to support Senator Stewart's proposal. This is no more than a mail contract pure and simple. Its terms are advantageous, and we should not risk losing it, by placing unnecessary difficulties in the way. 2308 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - After listening to honorable senators this morning, and last night, I find myself confronted with two entirely different sets of arguments. On the one side we have Senator . Dobson and Senator Guthrie finding fault in no measured terms with the contract, because it does not provide for cool storage and other facilities. Senator Dobson feels so strongly upon the matter that he would absolutely tear up this contract, and1 initiate other proceedings on a different basis. Senator Guthrie in expressing himself in the same fashion, but with equal, if not superior, emphasis, showed that he regarded the absence of these provisions as a vital blot on the contract that we are asked to ratify. But against that we have the view of Senator Stewart, that the vital defect in the contract is that it does provide those very facilities that Senator Dobson and Senator Guthrie say are entirely absent. I am rather inclined to think that by some strange chapter of accidents the Government has stumbled upon a fairly accurate middle course. The features which present themselves to my mind are these: The Government invited applications from the whole world for the conveyance of mails. It invited tenderers who responded to these applications to state what size. vessels they would supply. I put it to Senator Stewart, who has mentioned the size of these ships a.s one of the chief objections to the tender, seeing that it is a mail contract only - whether if two tenders had been submitted for an equal subsidy, one company offering to supply vessels of 11,000 tons, and the other vessels of 3,000 or 4,000 tons, which tender would he have accepted ? 2308 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The reasonable one. 2308 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - Surely he would have accepted the tender offering to supply the larger vessels. 2308 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - We have not arty evidence. 2308 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - We have this evidence - that invitations were published throughout the world for tenders to be supplied for the conveyance of our mails, and tenderers were invited to state what size vessels they would supply. The tender which has been accepted contained an offer to supply 11,000 tons boats. The size of the vessels has been made one of the points of attack. I say that that attack altogether, fails, in view of the admission that Senator Stewart now makes, that other things being equal, he would prefer the larger to the smaller ships. 2308 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - I did not say anything of the kind. 2308 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I do not want to deal with the question of tonnage as to which one of two opinions is open to us. Either the contractors have used the term " registered tonnage ' ' in. ignorance, or they have done so pursuing the game of bluff, which is tried by all shipping companies in advertising gross instead of registered tonnage. I give the Government the benefit of the doubt - it is a pleasure to me. though I do not often do so - in supposing that they did not really know what " registered tonnage " meant. But the other contracting parties knew perfectly well what they were doing, and were, apparently, resorting, as I say, to that species of advertising puff or bluff which is favoured by most shipping firms. 2308 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - -If we find contractors bluffing, what should we do? Have nothing more to do With them. 2308 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - Just before I pass from the objection raised to the contract on the ground that the vessels are large, I invite attention to clauses 8 and 9 of the general conditions of tender. I make this reference, because last night it was pointed out that the plans have to be submitted to the Government, and it will be seen that these articles provide that this submission is to be only for the purpose of showing that the vessels are suitable and fit for the purposes of the contract. If I read those clauses aright, they mean that the power of supervision is- to be absolutely limited to the maillcarrying capacity of the vessels, and that there need not be any other provision on the vessels beyond that for carrying mail matter. That there will be other provision I have no doubt, but, so far as the supervising power of the contract is concerned, the plans have only to show that the vessels have ample accommodation for the conveyance of the mails. 2309 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - If the plans do not show something else, the representative of the Government may refuse to pass them. 2309 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - The representative of the Government would have no legal right to do so, as I read the clauses. Clause 8 of the general conditions of tender, amongst other matters, provides that every mail ship shall be " in all respects suited to the performance of the services herein agreed to be performed,'' while clause 9 stipulates that every vessel shall be " always properly and sufficiently equipped in all respects, so as to render her constantly efficient for the said services, and safe for the conveyance of mails." The supervision which the Government claim, and rightly claim, to exercise over the plans and construction of the vessels, is limited to the purpose for which, so far as we are concerned, they are to be constructed. The clauses I have quoted seem to me to support the contention of Senator Guthrie and Senator Dobson that this is a mail contract pure and simple ; but in proportion as those clauses tend to support those two honorable senators, they correspondingly demolish the position taken up by Senator Stewart. Senator Guthrie seems to think that because the contract does not provide for cargo facilities, some injury will be done to the producers and the trade of Australia. I cannot accept that view. That some additional advantage might have been conferred if there had been added to the mail contract a trade contract, is a matter for consideration and argument; but I cannot conceive that any injury will be done to the producers of Australia if a contract, which we enter into for mail purposes, has the effect of bringing a large and capacious fleet into Australian waters. Although there is no stipulation that the vessels shall be bound to enter any ports but those of Fremantle and Adelaide, it is obvious that the presence of such vessels in Australian waters, increasing as they will the carrying capacity for Australian produce, must have a beneficial effect on those who desire to send produce to the markets of the world. Even if the vessels never pass Adelaide, the effect of their competition will still be felt, because they will take so large a proportion of the South Australian export produce as to leave the vessels now trading here more and more dependent on the ports of the other States. 2309 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - But will the vessels under this agreement compete with other vessels ? 2309 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I take the honorable senator to be suggesting that there may be a shipping combination ? 2309 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Exactly. 2309 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - If that danger ex:ists, as it probably does in these days of big commercial enterprises, there will be a much smaller risk of combination with a multiplicity of companies than with a limited number. For that reason I altogether dissent from the view that, because we have no direct undertaking on the part of the contractors to visit other ports, no advantage will accrue to those who have produce to ship. The presence in Australian waters of such a body of shipping as is projected in this agreement will have an immense benefit, not merely in adding to the number of the shipping companies catering for the trade, but also in the anticipation, which I confidently entertain, that modern, well-equipped vessels of the kind will tend to stimulate the lines already trading on our coasts, .and still further induce, or even force, them to make concessions in order to secure their share of trade in export produce. 2309 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE .- I desire to explain the position I take up in regard to the amendment submitted by Senator Stewart. The amendment undoubtedly is one that is very attractive to those who live in what is, perhaps, the finest port of Australia; but we cannot shut our eves to the fact - at least, I cannot - that if we force the vessels to call at' the ports mentioned, we shall have to pay for the accommodation. The position of Senator Dobson is rather anomalous, seeing that he admits that, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, the vessels would, call at the ports voluntarily. Under the circumstances. I see no reason to make a rigid stipulation, and thus run the risk of destroying the contract, which, as I said on a previous occasion, appears to me to be verv favorable to the Commonwealth. 2309 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Senator Dobson desires the vessels to call at Hobart only for three or four months in the year. 2309 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE - That is so; but, to make the callings coompulsory, by means of a stipulation in the contract, would, to my mind, be vicious. It would be left open to Western Australia, or any other State, to contend that all vessel's under mail contract should call at all the ports of the Commonwealth. It might be claimed; for instance, that the vessels of the Vancouver service should proceed to Western Australia, or that the vessels of the New Guinea service should call at Tasmanian ports. There is no doubt that the ports would to a certain extent benefit if those subsidized steamers were required to call, but I regard such a principle as wrong. One reason why it seems to me that the Government are very wise in making this only a mail contract is to be found in the disappointment of the anticipation which they evidently entertained in the case of a former contract, that they would get generous support from the producers if a large space were guaranteed for refrigerated produce. We know what the result was. When they endeavoured to get a guarantee, they were informed, to their surprise, that the principal producers desired to be left alone. I was present at a large meeting in Hobart when the producers distinctly refused to give any guarantee; and the experience in Sydney was similar. While honorable senators talk about forwarding the interests of producers, we ought to remember that the latter desire only to be left alone, they having in the past managed their own affairs with profit. For the reasons I have given I cannot support the amendment. 2310 JXO Queensland 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE . - In the case of a Chamber representative of the States, it is excusable that honorable senators should address themselves to the question from the stand- point of their own States; and I also propose to take that course. There is no doubt that under this agreement Queensland will be at a disadvantage, as compared with some of the other States. But I do not attribute that position to any malice on the part of the present or any past Government ; it arises more from the geographical position of Queensland in reference to any mail service from the West. This question has been in the mind of successive Governments for a very long time past. It was considered when tenders were invited for a mail contract during the Barton Administration. I was then Postmaster-General ; and the tenders invited were of every possible character, including one from any port in Australia to any port in the United Kingdom, affording every opportunity for tenderers of all kinds to offer. I was in hopes at the time that we might have an offer for a mail service by Torres Straits. In fact, in my opinion, the ideal mail service for Australia would approach from the West, with a Home route by the Torres Straits, perhaps alternately reversing the trip. Such a service would not only serve the ports hitherto recognised as ports of call in this connexion, but would afford shipping facilities to various centres in Queensland. In all the States except Queensland, there is, we may say, one port for the whole of the territory. 2310 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Not in Tasmania. 2310 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - Of course, there are the ports of Launceston and Hobart in that State; but on the mainland, the difference between Queensland and the other States, is that in the northern State there are ports which serve distinctly separate districts that would be left out entirely by any mail service involving a call only at Brisbane. That fact has been recognised for a long time past by the Queensland Government. As far back, I think, as 1880 the Queensland Government entered into a contract with the British-India Steam Navigation Company for a mail service via Torres Straits. The subsidy at the start was £55,000 a year for a four-weekly service. In addition, port dues were remitted, so that, on the whole, the subsidy reached a very substantial amount. 2310 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What were the terminal points? 2310 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - Brisbane was the first port of call, but the vessels called at Rockhampton and Townsville on the way Home. 2310 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The vessels called at all the ports homewards - at Bowen, Mackay, and so forth. 2310 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - There were intermediate steamers, I think; but, at any rate, cargo was picked up at all of those ports. _ It soon became apparent, however, that this, as a mail service, was a failure, because it was too slow; and it was therefore found more advantageous to use the vessels sailing from Sydney. Consequently letters were almost immediately sent by the old route; but the service of the British-India Steam Navigation Company was retained for cargo purposes with, I think, beneficial results to the whole of Queensland. 2310 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - From Townsville, I think, the mails continued to go north. 2310 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - Quite so. The result of calling for tenders for the mail service from Australia to England in the first place was that after an interval of eighteen months, there was practically only one tender sent in. and1 that was from the Orient Steam Navigation Company, on very much the same conditions as the company had previously performed the service. I should like here to emphasize the fact that the Postmaster-General at that time, Mr. Sydney Smith, endeavoured to induce the company to make am offer to take their boats on to Brisbane. It was one of the conditions of tender that they should state what sum they would require to go on to Brisbane. But the company would not name any sum at all, although they were pressed to do so. At that time, it should be remembered that nearly all the butter freight from Brisbane was going under an arrangement to the Aberdeen line, so that there was no particular inducement for the company to make the offer. But with, regard to Sydney and Melbourne, the position was that they did not care whether the contract made provision for calling at those ports or not If they had been omitted from the contract, the company would not have taken one sixpence less for the service. The insertion in the conditions that the steamers should go on to Melbourne and Sydney from Adelaide was a matter of grace, and cost the Commonwealth nothing whatever. We should not have secured the service for any less if that condition had not been inserted. But its insertion gave umbrage to a number of people in Queensland who contended that if it was a condition of the contract that the boats should go to Sydney and Melbourne, it should also be a condition that they should go on to Brisbane. Last session, Senator Stewart expressed the views of a great number of people in Queensland, when he said that the contract should be ' purely for a mail service, and that all arrangements with respect to the carriage of cargo should be left to the States Governments. That is exactly what has been done in this contract. It is possible that the contractors might have been willing that a provision should be inserted compelling the boats to go to Sydney and' Melbourne without making any extra charge. But the course adopted by the Government is the course which Queensland . asked for last year. That is to say, that the contract should be" purely for a mail service, covering the carriage of the mails from Adelaide to Brindisi, and of the heavier mail matter to London. That this is purely a mail service is clear, if we consider what the contractors have undertaken to do for the subsidy of £125,000. They have undertaken to carry our mails and nothing else. Everything else has been left to arrangement with the States Governments. 2311 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - And they carry our mails only as far as Adelaide. 2311 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - Yes, they bring the mails only to the port at which they meet the railway systems of Australia. If we had a mail service via Torres Straits, the port fixed under the contract for such a service would, no doubt, be Broadmount, or Gladstone, and in that case, South Australia would occupy very much the same position that Queensland occupies to-day, and if South Australian producers . required to make use' of the facilities provided by the mail steamers, they would have to offer sufficient inducements to them to call at Adelaide. 2311 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - By-and-by, we expect that the mails will be delivered' at Port Darwin and sent down to Adelaide over the transcontinental railway. 2311 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - If the Panama Canal' were completed, the position would be altogether reversed. 2311 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - That is so. In this contract, the Government have asked the company to carry our mails, but it is ridiculous to suppose that any shipping company in the world would build, charter, or use steamers merely for the purpose of carrying mail matter. They would never offer to carry our mails for £125,000 a year if they had not in mind the making of money by the carriage of goods. They have elected' to make a contract simply for the carriage of mails, and leave themselves perfectly free to go where they like to secure freight. The Commonwealth Government communicated with the Governments of the States with a view to placing themselves in a position to inform the contractors what freight they would get at different ports if they went there. The negotiations fell through, because none of the States' Governments were prepared to make any definite offer. I am not sure that the Government of Queensland were not wise in the attitude they took up, because, if any such arrangement were made, it would involve a corresponding compensation. And if they had offered the contractors so much freight on condition that their boats went to Queensland ports they would have tied their hands for perhaps the number of years contemplated in the contract. They would have had to agree to give the company a certain amount of freight, and, in doing so, they might, perhaps, have been hampering themselves, if subsequently they desired to negotiate for the carriage of Queensland produce, via Torres Straits. I feel sure that the producers of Queensland, and those representing them, will never be satisfied with any cargo service which will not give equal facilities to all the ports on the Queensland coast, and which will not connect them with the principal ports in the East. I think that, eventually, there must be a service for the carriage of cargo via Torres Straits. Whether the Queensland Government, in declining to negotiate with the new company, were actuated by these views or' not, I do not know, but I believe they were wise in not tying themselves to any southern mail service. 2312 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The Queensland Government are conducting negotiations with regard to the Peninsular and Oriental steamers going round the other way. 2312 JXO 0 0 DRAKE, James Senator DRAKE - I have not the slightest doubt that, in view of the enormous expansion which has taken place lately, and is taking place now, in connexion with the production of butter in Queensland, and the enormous and increasing output of frozen meat from the State, the exports of the State will be sufficient shortly to warrant a line of steamers being put on to transport them, and such a service will almost certainly be via Torres Straits'. Queensland, of course, desires an efficient and speedy mail service; and, looking upon this contract as one purely for a mail service, I should not consider myself justified in doing anything that would prevent it being carried out. It provides for probably as good a mail service as we could possibly expect to get for the money, and Southern Queensland, at all events, could hardly be better served. The contractors will be under no obligation in regard to the carriage of cargo; but, as I have already said, I think the requirements of Queensland in that respect can be more efficiently met by a line of steamers plying via Torres Straits. In the circumstances, I must vote against the amendment, which has been moved bv Senator Stewart. Senator Col. NEILD (New South already said on this question as to the possibility of the steamers of this line of steamers, if it should ever be established, ceasing to have -any further connexion with Australia than a call at Adelaide, and being induced to cross the ocean to New Zealand for a New Zealand Government subsidy, which, no doubt, would be forthcoming, I think it my duty to vote for the amendment submitted by Senator Stewart. I freely admit that if the contract is carried out as designed, the amendment will be an absurdity, because the vessels will be of a size that will prevent their entry into Port Phillip, Port Jackson, and Moreton Bay, and will prevent them getting any nearer to Adelaide than the Outer Anchorage, and it will be impossible that they can be utilized in the manner indicated by the amendment. I apprehend that the transparent blunder which some one has committed in the wording of this option agreement will have to be put right some day. Some one will have to own up and admit that he did not know what he was doing. I suppose it will be Mr. Croker. I do not blame the Postmaster-General, because I suppose he knew all about it, and was quite prepared to accept the gigantic steamers which Mr. Croker was complacent enough to offer. I really do not suppose that Mr. Croker knew anything about the matter. That is the only way in which I can account for such an extraordinary proposal. We can accept the proposal with more certainty than we could accept the terms of an agreement which the persons alleged to be pledged have not seen, or a warranty to a bond which apparently nobody has seen. I feel that I could not have made the remarks I made the other day without trifling unless I was prepared to give evidence of my belief in their validity bv supporting the amendment which Senator Stewart has moved. Question - That the words proposed to be added be added - put. The Committee divided. 5 Dobson, H. Guthrie, R. S. Higgs, W. G. Neild, J. C. Stewart, J. C. (Teller) 24 Baker, Sir R. C. Best, R. W. Clemons, J. S. Croft, J. W. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. (Teller) Fraser, S. Gould, A. J. Henderson, G. Keating, J. H. Macfarlane, J. McGregor, G. Millen, E. D. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Smith, M. S. C. Story, W. H. Styles, J. Symon, Sir J. H. Trenwith, W. A. Turley, .H. Walker, J. T. de Largie, H. 2 Givens, T. Pulsford, E. Majority ... ... 19 AYES NOES PAIR Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Article 3 - That each entire voyage of each of the mail ships in either direction between Brindisi and Adelaide shall be completed within a period of six hundred and thirty-six hours, which period of six hundred and thirty-six hours shall be deemed to be " the period of transit " referred to in the said "general conditions of tender." 2313 KPE Tasmania Protectionist Honorary Minister 1 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - I move - That there be added to the motion : - Proviso to article 3 - Provided that, in the event of the Postmaster General requiring the "period of transit" on the voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide to be reduced to six hundred and twelve hours, the period of six hundred and twelve hours shall thenceforth be deemed to be the " period of transit" for each voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide, and each such voyage shall be completed within that period. When the contract was first submitted to the other House, it was objected that it empowered the Fostmaster-General to require the reduction of the period of transit from 636 to 612 hours, but did not definitely bind the contractors to comply with his request. The object of inserting this proviso is to make that point abundantly clear. 2313 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - The proviso has also to be considered in connexion with article 5, which provides that where the period of the voyage is reduced from 636 to 612 hours, the contractors shall be reimbursed the cost of extra coal and other incidental expenses in providing the accelerated service. I cannot see where any occasion for other incidental expenses could arise. To a very large extent, this provision would operate in favour of the contractors. Suppose, for instance, that with a large ship they managed to save thirty-six hours in running, they would make a considerable saving. And yet, in addition to that, it is proposed to give them an additional subsidy up to a sum of £23,000. 2313 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -I would ask the honorable senator to deal with that matter on article 5. 2313 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I understand, sir, that article 3 also deals with the subject-matter of article 5. 2313 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - No; with another matter. 2313 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - I submit, sir, that Senator Guthrie is quite in order; because article 3, as the Minister has indicated, is intertwined with article 5, and deals practically with the same set of circumstances and conditions. 2313 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I do not see anything about incidental expenses in article 3, and the proviso refers to only the period of transit, but incidental expenses are mentioned in article 5. I think it would be more convenient if Senator Guthrie were to keep to the point under discussion. 2313 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The proviso would empower the Postmaster-General to require an alteration in the rate of speed of the vessels. Consequently if the period of the voyage were altered from 636 to 612 hours the question of expense would arise. How it comes to be put in article 3 and not in article 5 I cannot understand. The latter prescribes how the Postmaster-General shall deal with the contractors when he asks for increased speed. The only consideration with me now is whether, if article 3 were approved, we could amend article 5. 2313 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Certainly. 2313 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I feel very strongly that " other incidental expenses " should be struck out. Amendment agreed to. Article 5 - That in the event of the Postmaster-General requiring the said "period of transit" on the voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide 10 be reduced to six hundred and twelve hours, and pursuant to such requirement the said" period of transit" for each voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide is so reduced to six hundred and twelve hours by the contractors, then the contractors shall, subject as in clause 4 hereof mentioned, be entitled to receive an increased remuneration, namely, a reimbursement to cover the additional cost of making provision for the extra coal and other incidental expenses to provide such accelerated service on the said voyage, and the amount of such reimbursement, failing mutual agreement, shall be fixed by arbitration in the manner set forth in the said " general conditions of tender," provided, however, that the total amount of such reimbursement shall in no case exceed Twenty-five thousand pounds (£25,000) per annum. 2314 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - I move - That there be added to the motion : - Proviso to article 5 - Leave out "and other incidental expenses." 2314 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - Might there not be other incidental expenses, and, if so, would they not have to be approved ? 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - There might or might not be. If the contractors built vessels which were capable of making the trip in 612 hours, the alteration in the rate of speed would be all in their favour. 2314 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - But would it not take a larger consumption of fuel to give the higher rate of speed? 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the honorable senator had read the article he would know that it makes ample provision to compensate the contractors for the use of additional fuel. But it goes further when it provides that they shall be reimbursed other incidental expenses. 2314 K8T 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator Trenwith - If there should be any other incidental expenses why should they not be reimbursed? 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Would there be any ? 2314 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - If there were none the provision would do no harm. 2314 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator Best - And if there should be any difference the amount would have to be fixed by arbitration. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the Postmaster-General called upon the contractors to make the trip more quickly, and it led to a considerable saving on their part, should not the Commonwealth receive a benefit therefrom ? 2314 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - What the honorable senator means is that these " other incidental expenses" should be "other necessary expenses." 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Exactly. I do not mind the contractors being recouped other necessary expenses, and I do not know that any dispute on this point would go to arbitration. In my opinion, it would be left to the Postmaster-General to say what were incidental expenses. 2314 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - The amount would have to be fixed by arbitration. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Article 5 says-. The contractors shall, subject as in clause 4 hereof mentioned, be entitled to receive an increased remuneration, namely, a reimbursement to cover the additional cost of making provision for the extra coal and other incidental expenses. Article . 4 is in these terms - That subject as aforesaid to all the conditions contained in the said " general conditions of tender," the yearly subsidy or sum payable to the contractors by the Postmaster-General in consideration of the faithful performance and observance by the contractors of all the covenants, agreements, stipulations, provisos, and conditions in this agreement, and except where or to the extent the same are inconsistent with or modified by provisions herein contained in the said " general conditions of tender " contained shall be at the rate of One hundred and twenty-five thousand pounds (£125,000) per annum. Neither the amount of the subsidy nor the provision of increased speed, nor the matter of other incidental expenses would go to arbitration. 2314 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - They might be driven to arbitration. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No. All that the company would need to do would' be to say, " It was necessary for us to consume 1,000 tons more coal of a certain quality and price," and no doubt, just as lawyers can make up bills of costs, ship-owners would be able to make up bills of " other incidental expenses." These might amount to a very considerable sum, but, so far as I can see, the article does not provide for a dispute on those points, to be referred to arbitration. 2314 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The amount is limited to , £25,000. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - So far as coal was concerned, the consumption would be well known, but incidental expenses would be an unknown quantity. I should not, mind compensating the contractors for any extra coal which they might burn; but I object to compensating them for other incidental expenses which might not involve the employment of any additional labour. 2314 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Suppose that they were to use oil, and not coal. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I should be willing to compensate the contractors for whatever additional fuel they might burn. It is well known that the use of oil on a steamer does away with the employment of labour to a very large extent. 2314 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - They might use bottled-up electricity. 2314 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - At the present time, there are no ships of any size, certainly not ships of 1 1,000 tons register, which are propelled by electricity. 2314 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - What the honorable senator wishes to do is to provide that if any better and cheaper means of propelling ships be discovered, the question of the subsidy shall be submitted to arbitration, with a view to its reduction. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No. I am willing to assent to the payment of that sum for a period of ten years, and if the contractors provide boats with a quicker rate of speed, I should be prepared to compensate them for whatever additional fuel they might consume. 2315 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - I think that the words objected to by Senator Guthrie are necessary if extra coal is consumed, there must be more labour to handle it. Stokeholds are manned according to the amount of coal consumed. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - That has been recommended, but it is not carried out. 2315 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - If to keep up a certain speed, ten men are required in the stokehold of a vessel, twelve may be required to maintain an extra speed. Surely extra labour would be incidental to the consumption of extra coal. The Navigation Commission, of which Senator Guthrie was a member, has reported, and he ought to know that that Commission recognised the principle that manning ought to be regulated by coal consumption. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - It ought to be, but it is not. 2315 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Manning has a necessary relation to coal consumption. The present agreement involves the consumption of a certain amount of coal. Increased speed will mean extra consumption, and incidental to that will be extra cost for labour. Therefore, I think it is necessary that the article should be worded as it is. 2315 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - There is no manning scale in any part of the British Dominions, except under the New Zealand law, which depends on the consumption of coal. 2315 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - What was the finding of the Navigation Commission? 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - That is still in the air, and may be so throughout the continuance of this contract. 2315 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Is the honorable senator in favour of the coal consumption of steam-ships being the factor regulating manning ? 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Of course, I am. Verv likely, Mr. Croker, the contractor under this scheme, is also in favour of manning being determined by the consumption of coal. Very probably, he will say, " We require a certain number of men if the voyage is to be completed ir. 636 hours. On the basis of a 612 hours' voyage, we ought to have a certain number more." 2315 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator Best - He could not say that, unless more were actually employed. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I do not know that he could not. 2315 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator Best - It would not he an extra expense then. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The company might say that it required a certain number of men to bring a ship from Brindisi to Adelaide in 636 hours. If they consumed extra coal in increasing the speed, they might say, " We ought to have two or three more men," and charge that as an incidental expense. They would not be compelled to go to arbitration on that point any more than with regard to the extra allowance of £25,000. 2315 JPC 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator Best - Yes, they would. 2315 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I will give way to the honorable senator's construction of a legal document, but I think that we are only opening the door to claims for incidental expenses. If an amendment is not made, I believe, that honorable senators will have cause to regret that they left such a loop-hole in the contract. 2315 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS . - We have learnt from the Minister that the words at the end of article 6 - failing mutual agreement be determined by arbitration in the manner provided in the said " general' conditions of tender," are to be left out. Words are to be substituted providing for a reference to Parliament. I suppose that this question of additional remuneration will not be referred to Parliament. 2315 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - It will be a matter for arbitration. 2315 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - It is, I believe, a fact that it is contemplated to add £25,000 to the payment for this service at a future date. That question will never be referred to Parliament, I understand? 2315 KPE Tasmania Protectionist Honorary Minister 1 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - It will be for the Postmaster-General to request the company to reduce the duration of the voyage to 612 hours. The particular expenditure to which the company will be put by reducing the time may be £18,000 or£20,000. It will depend upon, the Postmaster-General whether he takes the responsibility of exercising the power of agreeing to pay that extra amount, referring it to arbitration, or first consulting Parliament. 2316 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - We do not give him the option under article 6 as proposed to be amended. 2316 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - No, he must refer to Parliament in that case; but in this instance he is to have the option of agreeing, or referring to arbitration, or he may first consult Parliament. This power will be exercised at his own discretion. 2316 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - The Minister's explanation means that the Postmaster-General would, if he gave notice requiring an expedited service and' found the cost too great, have the option of leaving the contract as it originally stood. But once he has given the notice the matter will not rest with him. The contractors can go on in accordance with his notice, and call upon the Postmaster-General either to pay its claim or submit the matter to arbitration. 2316 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - That would be so if he absolutely required the alteration. But he might make inquiries beforehand. 2316 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - As to what a future Postmaster-General might do under imaginary circumstances, I cannot say. 2316 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - But that is what I was asked. 2316 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - The Minister has offered an explanation which he must admit is not literally accurate. Once the notice has been given there will be no opportunity to draw back from it. It will be for the contr'actor to determine whether he will agree to the expedited service or not. The adjustment of the additional price will be a matter for arrangement or arbitration, and the only question that can come before Parliament is that of the extension of the contract. I am not saying that this is a vital blot in the agreement, but I am pointing it out because the Minister seemed to hold a different view. I do not see that a matter of this kind' can come before Parliament. It is one of adjusting little details for which the Government must take the responsibility. It does not follow, however, that we may not obtain an expedited service without paying an extra penny. I am not saying that we are likely to get it. But the word " reimbursement " is used. We call for a. superior service. If the contractors say that that entails additional expenditure, they will have to be paid for it. But they may put in superior machinery which will be more economically worked. It may be more profitable to them to give us an accelerated service without extra payment. It is only in case of additional outlay being caused to the company that the Commonwealth can be approached for additional payment. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2 p.m. 2316 KTF South Australia 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR . - I should like to reply briefly to the remarks of Senator Millen. The honorable senator has every right to be anxious as to what may be done by any future Postmaster-General and the contractors in the matter of increased speed ; and he pointed out that if a quicker service were desired, the fact would be intimated to the contractors, and the whole question would then be submitted to arbitration. In my opinion, there is nothing in the contract to prevent the present or any future Postmaster-General, before proceeding to the length indicated, from endeavouring to find out from the contractors the probable cost of the accelerated service; and the Government would certainly be guided by any suggestions or statements the contractors might make in this connexion. Of course, the contractors might refuse to give any hint as to the probable cost, and thereupon the Postmaster-General -would have to fall back on his powers under the contract. I have no doubt, however, that, in any such negotiations, the contractors would be very willing to assist in arriving at an agreement without resorting to arbitration ; but if the latter course were decided upon, then both parties would be on the same footing. I have no fear as to anything that may occur in this connexion under the conditions. 2316 K1U New South Wales 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator PULSFORD . - I presume it is recognised by the Government that article 6 is entirely optional - that the Postmaster-General " may " require, but that the contractors are not compelled to provide the accelerated service. 2316 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - We have adopted a proviso that casts the obligation on the contractors to comply with the requirements. As I intimated, that proviso was adopted by another place, and has also been adopted here. Amendment negatived. Article 6 - Amendment (by Senator Keating) agreed to- That there be added to the motion - Proviso to Article 6 - Leave out the words " failing mutual agreement be determined by arbitration in the manner provided in the said general conditions of tender," and insert in lieu thereof " be determined by mutual agreement, subject to the approval of Parliament by resolution. . . . " Article 7 - That during the prevalence of the South-west Monsoon the "period of transit" from Adelaide to Brindisi shall be extended by thirty-six hours. 2317 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE . - Are the Government in possession of any authority by which they can determine the period of the south-west monsoon? It would be rather serious if for six months of the year the time of transit could be extended by thirty-six hours. 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - That is what it means. 2317 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - There may be some determination by a court as to what the period of the south-west monsoon really means. If it means nine or ten months in the year, we shall be practically entering into a contract in which the time of transit is thirty-six hours more than that stated in article 3. 2317 K1U 0 0 PULSFORD, Edward Senator Pulsford - I think the southwest monsoon period is about four months - from the latter part of May to the middle of September. 2317 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I desire to know whether the Government have any information. 2317 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Personally, I have not ; but I am told that it is a well understood period, which has been provided for in all previous contracts. 2317 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - In the north of Australia the monsoon period extends for seven or eight months. 2317 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE . - The south-west monsoon blows from Aden, in the Red Sea, towards Ceylon from the beginning of May to the end of September, or some time in October. If we allow an extended period! of thirty-six hours between Ceylon - which is the only place in question - and Aden, it will operate for about six months in the year, and will, therefore, be a considerable addition to the time mentioned in the contract. The contract between the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company and the Imperial Government contains a similar stipulation. 2317 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - The best course the Government could take, in the interests of the people of the Commonwealth, would be to strike out this article. The Imperial contract referred to by Senator Macfarlane is an Indian contract, the circumstances of which are different from those under consideration. In order to steam against a southwest monsoon, simply a little additional power is required by the vessel, and I do not know why the Government have accepted this article. At the present time the southwest monsoon is blowing, and yet the boats of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company cover the voyage in exactly the same time as they did six months ago. 2317 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Why should we not assume that, under this contract, the same thing will be done? 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - We are entering into a business arrangement, in which nothing ought to be assumed. 2317 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - Senator Guthrie has said that there is no business at all in this contract. 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I have never so expressed myself, although I may have said that a want of business ability has been shown in the framing of the contract. 2317 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The honorable senator said that the whole thing would come to nothing. 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - That is another matter. It is probably very business-like on the part of the contractors to induce us to enter into an agreement which, to a considerable extent, is in their favour, and I have expressed the opinion that, under the conditions laid down, there is very little chance of a company being floated to undertake this service. 2317 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - And the honorable senator wishes to make the matter more difficult of accomplishment. 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - That is not so. What I say is that, under the existing contract with the British Government, the monsoonal period makes no difference in the time of the arrival of the mail-boats at Adelaide; and I should like some explanation from the Government why a distinction has been drawn. 2317 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - It is a usual provision. 2317 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - But why is it made? 2317 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - It is rather too late in the day to ask that. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - We are now revising previous conditions, and, unless for good reasons shown, this article ought not to be inserted. It cannot be challenged, I think, that, with a head wind, the majority of up-to-date steamers are able to make better speed than they can attain with a fair wind, because the fires burn brighter and 'better steam is obtained. Every one knows that on their course to Brindisi these boats will has'e to contend against no absolutely bad weather. If they had to go round the Horn it would be another question. I object to the proposed concession for what is an indefinite period. I may feel more strongly on the subject than do some other honorable senators, because I remember that the various States have adopted a load-line, and that whilst the Imperial Act provides that on the coast of Great Britain, during certain months of the year, a winter load-line shall be used, and some of our States have adopted a winter load-line for corresponding months in Australian seas, others of the States have claimed that we have no winter in Australia, and have refused to introduce that safeguard. The result is that, in the natter of loading ships, the men sailing round Australia are in a worse position than seamen in any other part of the British Dominions. 2318 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Does the honorable senator not want a winter load-line? 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I do. 2318 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If the honorable senator admits conditions of that kind he must admit the influence of the monsoons. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I believe in a winter load-line for ships plying in Australian waters. 2318 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - The honorable senator is arguing against it. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I am not doing anything of the kind; but under the provision to which I have been referring the ships are to be permitted, during certain months of the year, to occupy thirty-six hours longer on the voyage, whether they are loaded down or are loaded light. 2318 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - During rough weather. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Where is the rough weather? 2318 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If there is no rough weather, why should there be a winter load-line? 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Senator McGregor is only showing his absolute ignorance of the subject. The honorable senator should stick to carrying a hod up a ladder, where he would have the same weather above as below 2318 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The honorable senator should speak only about what he understands. He would find it very difficult work to" carry a hod up a ladder in windy weather. 2318 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - The honorable senator does not contend that monsoon weather is fair weather? 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I have contended that it is far better for the firemen and more easy for them to keep up a good pressure of steam with a head wind than with a fair wind. 2318 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - But the ship might not make as good speed. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The pressure of steam will force the ship through at her ordinary rate of speed with a head wind in anything like moderate weather. I challenge any member of the Committee to say that there is anything like bad weather on the track between Fremantle and1 Brindisi, unless a ship should happen to meet a typhoon, and such an experience might not occur once in ten years. I should add that typhoons are more likely to occur during the north-east monsoons than d'uring the south-west monsoons. 2318 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - What does it matter in which of the monsoons they are met with ? 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I am objecting to the provision giving the company a concession of thirty-six hours during the time of the south-west monsoons. 2318 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - That is only in case the boats should be a little late. As a rule they will keep up to time, as boats running under the existing contract do; but there might be exceedingly heavy weather during the south-west monsoons, which might retard the vessels, and the company claim that it would be hardly fair to fine them for delay in such a case. 2318 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the extraordinary weather occurs during the season of the north-east monsoons, no such concession is provided for. Where is the logic in that? 2318 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - The logic is in the fact that the south-west monsoons would blow against the vessels, and the north-east monsoons with them. 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If this were a contract under which sailing-ships would carry the mails, the honorable senator's argument would be sound. 2319 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Unless the honorable senator desires to destroy the contract altogether, he must agree to the retention of this provision. 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Senator Playford is absolutely unfair, as he usually is. Why should the honorable senator say that I desire to destroy the contract ? 2319 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - I do not say that; but I say that if this provision is struck out, it will destroy the contract. 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Why? 2319 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Because the contractors would then be able to refuse to accept the contract. 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I have said that a head wind will be far more favorable for these vessels than a fair wind, because it will give them the necessary draught. 2319 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - Does the honorable senator mean to say that these boats can be propelled faster against a head wind than with a fair wind? 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Yes, unless the head wind is a gale, and there are not many gales encountered between Fremantle and Brindisi. 2319 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Would the honorable senator not give the contractors any concession? 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I remind the honorable senator that by this contract we are making provision in the interests of the company for all extraordinary circumstances. In the event of delay through " the act of God, the King's enemies, or pirates," an extension of time is allowed under this contract. I contend that there is no necessity for the concession proposed, and I do not believe that we should jeopardize the contract by omitting the provision. I believe that if it be omitted, the contractors will be prepared to admit that there is no reason why they should be given an extra thirty-six hours in which to complete a voyage during the south-west monsoons. These winds blow when the sun is north of the line, and why should the company be given the additional time during six months of the year? 2319 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Senator Staniforth Smith - When do the equinoctial gales come on? 2319 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - When the sun crosses the line going to the north, and going to the south, that is, in April and September, and I should not have objected to a provision for an extension of time during those months of the year. But to provide, in a service in tropical waters where the sea is generally like a millpond, for a concession of thirty-six hours in the length of the voyage, for six months of the year, is ridiculous on the face of it. I move - That there be added to the motion - Provided that article 7 be left out. 2319 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE . - If I did not think that it would vitiate the contract I should be inclined to vote for the amendment. I agree with Senator Guthrie that the proposed extension of time is quite unnecessary in the case of these high power steamers. 2319 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Then why did the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company ask the British Government to extend the period from twenty-four to thirty-six hours? 2319 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE - It is, of course, an advantage to a shipping company to secure the longest extension of time they can. Between May and October the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company are allowed an extension of thirty-six hours on the voyage from Colombo to Brindisi. That is an indication that there is heavy weather to be met with between Colombo and Aden during that time of the year. As a matter of fact, it is found that the steamers must go a considerable distance south of their ordinary track to avoid the heavy monsoons. The south-west monsoons do not always blow with the same strength, but at times they bring on very heavy weather, and the steamers go south of their usual course, to avoid being deluged with water. That is the reason why the concession is asked for. 2319 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The time allowed used to be twenty-four hours, but in the last contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company it has been extended to thirty-six hours. Question - That the words proposed to be added be added - put. The Committee divided. 5 Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Higgs, W. G. Neild, J. C. Stewart, J. C. Walker, J. T. 23 Baker, Sir R. C. Clemons, J. S. Croft, J. W. Dawson, A. Dobson, H. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. Fraser, S. Gould, A. J. Henderson, G. Keating, J. H. Macfarlane, J. McGregor, G. Millen, E. D. Mulcahy, E. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Pulsford, E. Smith, M. S. C. Story, W. H. Turley, H. (Teller) de Largie, H. O'Keefe, D. J. Majority ... ... ... 18 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Article 9 - That as the contractors propose to build mail ships to carry out this agreement, it is hereby agreed that condition Number 39 of the said "general conditions of tender" attached hereto marked " A " forms part of this agreement, and that the plans of the new mail ships to be built to carry out this agreement shall, within a reasonable time, be submitted for the approval of the representative of the Commonwealth Government in London. 2320 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS . - According to this article, the plans of new mail ships will be submitted to the sole approval of the representative of the Commonwealth Government in London. I admit that there may be very great difficulty in getting some person who will closely, and possibly more adequately represent the view of the Government, to approve of plans. It is very likely that the Ministry find it utterly impossible, at any rate, very difficult, to provide any other means. But that sort of approval of plans will not satisfy me. 2320 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - My honorable friend does not know who may be chosen to represent the Commonwealth in this matter. 2320 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - I have assumed that it would be either the present occupant of the office, so far as he does represent the Commonwealth, or his successor. 2320 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - I do not think that we would be bound to appoint the occupant of any particular office. 2320 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - I am glad to get that information from the Minister. I think it may fairly be assumed that at the present time the Commonwealth Government has a representative in London. It would be rather dangerous to leave the approval of these plans solely in the hands of that officer, or possibly his successor. But if the Minister chooses to say that it is the intention of the Government to appoint a special and properly qualified man for the purpose I shall be glad to get the assurance. 2320 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Undoubtedly we will do that. We might have a High Commissioner, but even he would not be competent to approve of plans. 2320 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - I am very glad to hear that statement from the Minister of Defence. 2320 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The idea is to have an agent for this particular purpose. 2320 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - The use of the term"representative" in this article is misleading, and it was fair to assume that the approving officer would be the person whom we call the representative of the Government. But with the assurance that a properly qualified man will be chosen for the purpose, I shall say no more on that point. Senator Lt.-Col.GOULD (New South Wales) [2.36]. - I venture to think that the approval of the Commonwealth Government ought to be required. The plans of new ships might very well be submitted, in the first instance, to the representative of the Government in London, whomsoever he might be, but he should either be directed to forward them for the approval of the Government or receive instructions as to the nature of plans of which he might approve. 2320 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson - There would be no time to forward the plans to Australia. 2320 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD - Possibly it might not be necessary to send out the plans. I think that the latter part of the article ought to read in this way: - The plans of the new mail ships to be built to carry out this agreement shall, within a reasonable time, be submitted to the representative of the Commonwealth Government in London for the approval of the Commonwealth Government. 2320 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I desire to move a prior amendment. 2320 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Col GOULD .- That is the only difficulty which occurs to me in connexion with the article. 2320 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - The article begins with these words - That as the contractors propose to build mail ships - There is not much in those words. I desire to substitute the words " bind themselves" for the word " propose." Everything hinges upon the question as to whether the company intend to carry out the contract or not. It is made with a company which is to be formed, and which only proposes to build steam-ships. It need not build any ships, and if it should not, it could get the whole of the deposit returned. I move - That there be added to the motion - Proviso to article 9 - Leave out the word "propose," line1, and insert the words "bind themselves." Question - That the words proposed to be added be added - put. The Committee divided. 7 Dawson, A. Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Higgs, W. G. Macfarlane, J. Neild, J. C. Stewart, J. C. Walker, J. T. 22 Baker, Sir .R. C. Clemons, J. S. Croft, J. W. (Teller) Dobson, H. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. Fraser, S. Gould, A. J. Henderson, G. Keating, J. H. McGregor, G. Millen, E. D. Mulcahy, E. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Pulsford, E. Smith, M. S. C. Story, W. H. Symon, Sir J. H. Turley, H. de Largie, H. Majority ... ... 15 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD(New South Wales) [2.43]. - I have two suggestions to offer with regard to the latter portion of this article. I suggest that it should be altered to read as follows: - The plans of the new mail ships to be built to carry out this agreement shall, within a reasonable time, be submitted to the representative of the Commonwealth Government in London for the approval of such Government. Or if the Government think that that procedure would be too complicated, I am quite willing to use the expression " submitted to a representative of the Commonwealth Government in London for approval," and to add the words " appointed for that purpose. " 2321 K0X South Australia Protectionist Minister of Defence 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD . - Most likely the Government will have a representative in London, and he will not be competent to criticise plans of steam-ships. Suppose that the Commonwealth were represented by a High Commissioner or by Captain Collins, undoubtedly he would appoint some person who had the necessary technical knowledge to advise him, and in the light of that advice he would approve of plans. It has been suggested that subsequently the plans should be sent out, and approved of by the Government. But the contractors would desire to begin the building of the ships immediately. The Government will have to oppose any alterations other than those to which we have agreed. Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON (South Australia) [2.45]. - I think that the Minister has rather misunderstood Senator Gould's proposal. He does not intend that the plans of these ships shall be sent out to Australia. 2321 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - How can they be submitted to the Government unless they are sent out? 2321 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The Minister has got into the same state of confusion as the agreement is in. Noone suggests that the Commonwealth Government shall consider the plans. Its approval is to be given through its expert. The article is extremely badly framed. No one desires to delay the approval of the contract for a moment. We wish to hasten it. Nor is it intended that an amendment shall be made which would embarrass the Government in any way. But it is right that it should be put on record that this point has been criticised, and that the explanation: of the Government should be forthcoming and recorded. What Senator Gould points out is that owing to the unhappy phraseology used, this article may be understood to mean that the approval is to be that of the ordinary representative of the Government in London. That view is emphasized by the use of the word " the" That representative may be either Captain Collins, the High Commissioner, or some one else. SenatorTrenwith. - Or some one speciallyappointed. 2321 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator SirJOSIAH SYMON - I believe that that is the intention. It should be some one competent to give an intelligent approval of the plans. All that Senator Gould has done is to suggest an amendment. Whether it is pressed or not is another matter. I do not know that it need be. But he indicates that to carry out the intention it would be better to make the article read : " A representative of the Government in London appointed for thepurpose." The High Commissioner would not be competent. He must have some one to advise him. It would be better if the article had been framed differently. But the Government has said - and its assurance in that respect may be accepted - that it is intended that a competent representative shall be appointed for the purpose. If the article is understood in that sense by the contractors there will be no trouble. 2322 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE . - What Senator Gould is aiming at would be practically accomplished by the article as it stands. As soon as the contract is ratified, 1 suppose that the Government will decide who its representative for this purpose shall be. The Agent-General for New South Wales at present represents the Commonwealth. 2322 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - No, Captain Collins. 2322 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - No, he only represents the Commonwealth in certain affairs; the Agent-General for New South Wales acts as our representative - our ambassador. 2322 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The Government will decide who shall be its representative for the purpose of this agreement. We must give the Government a free hand. I presume that certain instructions will be given to the appointed representative in order that our interests may be protected, and the regular representative of the Commonwealth will rely upon the advice of the expert. Is it worth while to amend the article when we know that no other intelligible course could! be followed? 2322 KKL Victoria 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER .- Personally, I do not care a straw whether the plans of the ships are subject to inspection or not. I believe that the men who are going to plank down their money in this enterprise will take good care to build good up-to-date ships. They would be born idiots if they did not. But I do object to any whippersnapper having power to knock the contractors plans about for no good end. It would be far better for the Government to appoint an expert to do this work. If they do that I shall he perfectly satisfied. I recommend them to do it as soon as this contract is closed. 2322 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - Is it not reasonable, to think that they will? 2322 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Hear, hear. Of coursetheywill. 2322 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER - I hope they will. Therefore I shall support the article. Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD (New South Wales)[2.53]. - I have no desire to delay the proceedings. But there must have been some reason for inserting this article in the contract. It is only fair that we should see that it expresses the wish of Parliament. This is not the only article that does not sufficiently convey what is really intended. I am satisfied with having directed attention to the matter, and shall not propose an amendment, particularly as the Government is not inclined to accept it. But I very much regret that the articles throughout are not more intelligibly drawn. Had they been, a great deal of misunderstanding and explanation would have been prevented. Article10 - It is agreed that the sum of Twenty-five thousand pounds (£25,000) already guaranteed by approved guarantee in London, and held and accepted on behalf of the Postmaster-General shall be accepted. . . . 2322 KAH New South Wales 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER . - Has this guarantee been properly approved? Has any one seen the money, or is it merely a bank guarantee? 2322 KPE Tasmania Protectionist Honorary Minister 1 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - There are personal guarantees, as to the sufficiency of which the Government has communicated with its present representative in London. The Government instructed him to make certain inquiries, and he has an assurance from reputable banks in London that the guarantees are more than sufficient for the purpose. Article11- That each of the mail ships to be employed in pursuance of this agreement shall be of at least 11,000 tons registered tonnage...... 2322 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS . - There is a difficulty that we are sure to incur, and be confronted with later on in relation to the tonnage of these ships. The matter has been so thoroughly thrashed out that we are all by this time agreed that the phrase " 11,000 tons registered tonnage," as it stands, means if it is correctly interpreted, ships of a tonnage running, we will say, up to anything from 1 6,000 to 20,000 tons gross. If that is what it means, it may be said that the Commonwealth cannot lose by allowing the article to go as it stands. It has been urged by many honorable senators that if the boats represent 11,000 tons gross tonnage, we should be quite satisfied. If they represent a tonnage of very much more they will be equally satisfied. I am going, to assume that the phrase, " 11,000 tons registered tonnage " means what it should mean, and what we believe it means - boats of much larger gross tonnage. I believe personally that the phrase has got into the contract through a blunder. Some one put it in who did not understand what it meant, and it has been passed over by some one else who did not understand it. We may be confronted with the position that if we accept this contract the principals, when they are asked to ratify it, and discover that boats of 11,000 tons registered tonnage are provided for, may say, " We decline to go on ; there has been an absurd blunder. " I do not believe that we have power to bind them. Suppose the principals' say, " This contract binds us to build ships of something like 16,000 or 20,000 gross tonnage, and we decline to do so." What will be the position of the Government? Where will the Commonwealth be? We shall certainly, in my opinion, have the Government coming back to Parliament because the principals will decline to go on. If that be so - and I think I have shown good grounds for the opinion - is it wise for us to let this, article pass as it stands, with the sure and certain consequence, in my view, that the principals in England will formally repudiate it, and ask the Government to request Parliament to amend it? I am quite sincere in mv desire to get the contract through. I will not even move an amendment. But I must point out the difficulty that I believe the Government will be confronted with, and I hope they realize it. If the contractors say they will not build such boats as are provided, the Government will have to come to it again to alter the contract. Does Senator Keating propose to run that risk, in order to get the contract through without amendment? Senator KEATING (Tasmania- Honorary Minister [2.59]. - I recognise the difficulties that present themselves to my honorable friend's mind, and probably to the minds of other honorable senators. But I am not authorized to ask for any amendment in connexion with this article. I go further, and say that I am not authorized on behalf of the Government to consent to any amendment in it. Even assuming that events did turn out as Senator Clemons suggests that they will, I do not think that the contractors would be able to repudiate the bargain made for them by their accredited agent. If it were necessary - I do not say for a moment that it will be - to come down to Parliament again with a proposal for the amendment of the contract as ratified, well, then, it would be. for Parliament to decide the matter upon its merits. 2323 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - What is the objection to put in " gross tonnage " now ? 2323 KPE Protectionist 1 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - I have indicated that the Government is not agreeable to such an amendment. I think that the course we are following in proposing to adopt the contract subject to the amendments agreed to, is the better one. It will be attended not only with the least risk, but with the greatest .possible advantage to the Commonwealth. 2323 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE . - As the senator who first called attention to the matter, I desire to emphasize what I said on that occasion. The law is very clear, and the position is serious : but I am prepared to leave the responsibility with the Government. I feel sure that the law will enable any person who feels aggrieved to bring an action against the contractors if they do not carryout what the law requires in reference to the registered tonnage. If the Government are prepared to take responsibility, I shall say no more, because I have no desire to upset the contract. 2323 JVC Tasmania 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON . - Senator Keating has made the position of the Government perfectly clear, but he has also told us that under some circumstances it may be necessary to refer the matter to Parliament. 2323 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - I said assuming that were so. 2323 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON - Quite so. But Senator Keating told us yesterday that an adjournment, even for one day, was a matter of momentous importance, and, believing that the contract is in our favour, I do not desire any delay. I should like to ask, however, what the Government understand bv "registered tonnage"? 2323 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS . - I do not like to let the matter drop, but would rather that we. faced the practical difficulties. In the interval, since this question was first raised, the Government have had ample opportunity to consult the accredited agent of the contractors in Melbourne. There has been abundance of time to ask Mr. Croker definitely what he means by the use of the term " registered tonnage," and whether, on behalf of his principals, he is prepared to stand by that term. If the Government have, in the interval, approached Mr. Croker, and pointed out to him the difficulties which have arisen in regard to the interpretation of the article, they may be in possession of information that will make it unnecessary to prolong this debate. It is possible that the Government have taken such a step, but, if so, we have not heard of it ; and, therefore, I should assume that they have done nothing. but have left Mr. Croker to suffer because of his own blunder. 2324 JVC 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator Dobson -Mr. Croker has heard the debate in both Houses. 2324 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - No doubt. It -would not have taken the Government long to cable to the principals asking whether they intend to construct vessels of 11,000 tons registered tonnage, or vessels of 11,000 tons gross tonnage. If we had that information we should know clearly what the contract is that we are asked to approve. My chief objection to this article, as I said yesterday, is that it contains a phrase about which there is a good deal of uncertainty. To put the matter another way, we are asked to affirm a contract containing a condition which renders it very uncertain whether it will be carried out when it comes to be considered by the principals. Even now, without delaying matters, there is time to cable to England. I have no desire to lecture the Government, but it would have been far better policy to settle the matter in the way I have suggested. 2324 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - I suggested that yes- terday. 2324 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - I cannot help thinking that some such step ought to have been taken. There are apparently many honorable senators who feel quite confident that, under this contract, we are going to get vessels of from 16.000 to18,000 tons. 2324 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - They do not know what they are talking about. 2324 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator CLEMONS - That is what the phrase means. I am disinclined to vote for this article. In the interests of a clear understanding as to what we, as a deliberative body, are asked to approve. I shall be compelled, for the first time since we have gone into Committee, to vote against the agreement. 2324 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - I do not agree with what is apparently Senator demons' definition of " registered tonnage." We have debated this matter at considerable length on several occasions, and I shall not again go over the ground, but merely say that I am strongly of opinion that " registered tonnage ' ' means gross tonnage. 2324 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - The tonnage mentioned is that of the smallest-sized vessels we shall get, and we are perfectly satisfied, 2324 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I have already given honorable senators my authority for the opinion I hold, and the only contradiction I have heard is that supplied by the British Merchant Shipping Act. I hold, however, that we are not making this agreement under that Act, but are making it in terms well understood by shipbuilders and shippers generally. Considering the heckling the Government got in another place, and the debates in this Chamber, they would have been well advised to obtain some fresh information for honorable senators. Apparently the Government are themselves not sure of their ground; and, if that be so, they have had sufficient time to make themselves conversant with the facts. If we make any amendment that would have the effect of lessening the tonnage specified, we may be contracting for smaller vessels than are now contemplated, and if," registered " means " gross," there is no difficulty in the way. 2324 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - There is no such thing as " gross registered " tonnage. 2324 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - There is only one registered tonnage. 2324 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Senator Symon has now entered into the fray ! 2324 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - I only wish to say that I know of no other tonnage except registered tonnage. 2324 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I shall repeat the opinion of a gentleman, whose profession it is to understand such matters, and who, in a press interview, said - Let us take an example ; the Moldavia is one of the new 10,000-tonners of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company's fleet, and Lloyds' Register gives her gross tonnage at 8,500 tons. Senator Symon will see that the words used are "gross registered tonnage"; and I take that to be correct. 2324 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - Give us the name of the authority. 2324 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I cannot give the name, but Lloyds' is the authority to which the Board of Trade delegates the power of registering ships. 2324 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The Board of Trade itself registers the ships. 2324 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Lloyds' has nothing to do with the registration. 2324 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Then what does Lloyds' Register mean? 2325 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - That is for the insurance company. 2325 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Lloyds' Register is merely a list of names. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I am very much mistaken if Lloyds is not the corporation which does the business of the British Government. 2325 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - No. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Does the Board of Trade not delegate the matter to Lloyds. 2325 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Why does Lloyds have inspectors at most ports ? 2325 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - For the purposes of insurance. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I should like Senator Guthrie to tell us why it is always Lloyds' Register that is mentioned in any reference to shipping, and not the Board of Trade register? Perhaps Senator Guthrie, with all his knowledge of navigation and shipping affairs, will answer that question. 2325 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator ought to know himself. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I contend that it is Lloyds which register ships under the Merchant Shipping Act. 2325 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - Some ships are not in Lloyds' Register. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Very few; and that is a fact which tells against such ships. 2325 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator Macfarlane - Yes. in the matter of insurance. 2325 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I am surprised that Senator Guthrie, with all his knowledge of law, does not know that much. 2325 KOS Western Australia 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator HENDERSON . - The Government cannot accuse me of having made any attempt to impede the progress of the ratification of. this agreement. I should like to say, however, that all through the discussion I have felt that there are a few honorable senators who seem to be desirous to limit the contractors to supplying very small vessels in the Australian service. 2325 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - They seem to want dingies. 2325 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator HENDERSON - Those honorable senators seem anxious for a provision to enable the contractors to run any kind of little fishing smacks, so long as they can carry a few bags of mails between England and Australia. That, however, is not my view of the matter. I probably speak feelinglv. because I am not a good sailor, and, when making a voyage, prefer as large a vessel as possible. If the contractors desire to give us vessels of a registered tonnage of 11,000 tons, why should we complain? If the vessels supplied are of 20,000 tons gross, so much the better for the travelling public. However, we do not seem to know what is meant by the phrase. Senator Guthrie and Senator de Largie are both nautical experts. They were members of the Royal Commission on Navigation, and, although they might not have known a ship from a soapbox previously, they are now absolute experts on all questions of navigation. And at what conclusions have they arrived ?, Judging from the record of their speeches, they have made the position as clear as mud can make it. As to a vessel of 11,000 tons, there is a difference of 5,000 tons between the interpretations placed by those honorable senators on the phrase " registered tonnage." It would be absolutely unreasonable to ask honorable senators to take any notice whatever of such " experts." I am half inclined to follow every step of the road taken by the uninitiated Ministry - men who know so little about shipping that possibly Mr. Croker has " taken them 'down." It may be, however, that the Government have " taken down" Mr. Croker; but what has really occurred I am not yet prepared to say. 2325 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Now is the time, or never. 2325 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator HENDERSON - If there is a possibility of having11,000-ton vessels engaged in this service, I do not care whether that is their gross register or not.' I prefer 11,000-tonners to vessels of 3,500 tons, and, consequently, I support the Government in this matter. 2325 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - I move - That there be added to the motion - Provided that article 11 be left out. We have been told to-day that it does not matter whether this is gross or registered tonnage. Authorities have been quoted to prove that the register of a ship at Lloyds may be interpreted as registered tonnage under this contract. I say the thing is absolutely preposterous, and the man who uses an argument of that sort only shows his entire ignorance of everything connected with shipping. What is the object of registration? It is that the ships registered shall come under British law. An unregistered ship is exactly in the same position as a person who is not a naturalized subject. I first discovered that the object of registration was to bring a ship under the application of British laws, as the result of a bitter experience, when a vessel was sunk in one of the South Australian Gulfs. Three men lost their lives in the disaster, but no action could be brought against the ship because she was not registered. If these ships were registered at Lloyds, would that registration permit them to fly the Commonwealth flag, of which we are all so proud? It would not. There is a clause in this contract providing that these ships shall . fly the Australian flag. I am very glad to see that clause, and will support it. SenatorFraser. - Does the honorable senator object to the other flag? 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No; the other flag is included in the Australian flag. We have the Southern Cross combined with the Union Jack. I might here say that I was an unsuccessful competitor for the design for the Commonwealth flag. I sent in a design comprising the Union Jack, and something representative of Australia. 2326 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Col Neild - The honorable senator showed that his loyalty was flagging. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - My loyalty to the British Empire has never flagged from the day I was born, and never will . 2326 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Col Neild - Then the honorable senator's competition was a flagrant proceeding. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I have been put through a more severe test of loyalty than has any other member of the Committee. 2326 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Will the honorable senator connect these remarks with the question ? 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I say that unless the 11,000 tons referred to is registered tonnage the ships can have no protection under the British flag, and can have, no recourse to our law courts. It has been suggested during the debate that as these ships are to be registered in Australia, the registration may take place under some other law than the Merchant Shipping Act. But that could not be done, because the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act respecting the registration of ships apply to the whole of the King's Dominions, and to every part of the known world to which His Majesty's jurisdiction extends. There is no escape from the fact that' the ships must be registered under the Merchant Shipping Act. The provision dealing with the subject will be found in Part 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act, section 2, which reads - Every British ship - and these ships being registered in Australia must be British ships - shall, unless exempt from registration - and that exemption refers to vessels under 20 tons measurement - be registered under this Act. That is to say, that every British ship shall be registered under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1904. If a ship required by this Act to be registered is not registered under this Act, she shall not be recognised as a British ship. 2326 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - We are now discussing a question of tonnage. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - We are discussing the question of registered tonnage. 2326 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - If the worst should come to the worst these vessels will be vessels of 11,000 tons, and we shall not object if they are larger. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - This contract is laid before me as a representative of the people of South Australia, and when I am told that these ships are to be of 11,000 tons register I want to know what registered tonnage means as referred to in this contract. 2326 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - What does it matter to us if we get a ship of 11,000 tons? 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the Minister will tell me that this means 11,000 tons register under the Merchant Shipping Act I shall sit down. Is the honorable senator prepared to say what the expression "registered tonnage" means? Surely we have a right to expect that the leader of the Government in the Senate will be able to explain the provisions of this contract ? 2326 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - We have two experts here, and they differ. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I am not referring to the opinions of the experts. I am asking what Ministers mean by the use of this expression. 2326 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Let it go, for God's sake. 2326 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If Senator Fraser, who is sent here to represent the interests of the people of Victoria, is prepared to open his mouth and take anything the Government care to put into it, well and good. 2327 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - The honorable senator is expected: to shut his eyes first. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - It the Ministry expect that from me they are expecting something they will never get. 2327 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Is not 11,000 tons enough for the honorable senator ? 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No, it is not. 2327 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then let the honorable senator move that the vessels should be of a greater tonnage. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The position I take up is this : These people offer us something, and the question is, are we going to refuse it ? 2327 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - We should refuse it if we did not think it good enough, but we do think it good enough. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Senator McGregor does not know what it is. As the leader of the Senate has said, the honorable senator is accepting something with his eyes shut. 2327 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser -If a man innocently gave the honorable senator a point on him, would he fake advantage of it? 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Innocently ! Does the honorable senator think that these boodlers have come here with this contract innocently ? I do not believe for a moment that they have. 2327 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - The honorable senator should not call them " boodlers." 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - What should I call them? 2327 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Contractors. 2327 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - They are decent Scotchmen,too. 2327 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I ask the honorable senator to refrain from replying to interjections which are disorderly. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I should like to reply to the interjection that these contractors are Scotchmen. I do not know that Croker is a Scotchman, and, so far as I know, the firm of Sir James Laing and Sons Limited is a North of England firm, and not a Scotch firm. I do not attribute all the virtues to the Scotch, but they are not to be led into a contract without knowing what it is. The view I take is that I am being asked personally to sign this contract on behalf of the people of South Australia, and I wish to know what I am signing. The contract says that we are to have ships of not less than 11,000 tons register. I have no doubt that the contract was considered by the Cabinet.. There are two members of the Cabinet present, and I wish to know from them what was the opinion of the Cabinet as to the size of these ships. 2327 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - That they were to be of11.,000 tons, and not less. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I am determined, even if I should have to stand here for a week, to get an understanding, of what the Government thought the term meant when the contract was signed. Mr. Croker has refused to tell me what was meant. I am determined that before the article is passed the Minister shall acknowledge either that it means the registered tonnage within the meaning of the Merchant Shipping Act- 2327 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Surely the honorable senator is not going to " stone-wall." 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No. I think that as a representative of South Australia I have a right to get a reply, but if I am to be ignored I shall discuss the point. 2327 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Senator Col Neild - Suppose that the Ministers do not know what the term means, what then? " 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Ministers ought' to know what is meant by the term. 2327 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Has the honorable senator replied to my argument concerning Lloyds' Register? 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the honorable senator had been in his place he would have heard me say that in this connexion Lloyds' Register is waste paper, because . a ship is only, registered there for the purpose of classification. I stated quite clearly that every ship which expects to get the protection of the British flag and law has to be registered with the Government. 2327 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - And not with Lloyds'. 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - No; that registration is merely effected for insurance purposes. A ship which is not registered according to British law is in exactly the same position as an alien who has refused to become a naturalized British subject. Just as an alien has no right to the protection of British law, so an unregistered ship has no right to go to a British port, or to fly the British flag. 2327 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Is there any register in Australia? 2327 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - If the honorable senator will go to the shipping office in Market street, Melbourne, he can find from the registrar of shipping all the ships which are registered in Victoria, and he can get similar information in Adelaide. The registrar of shipping here, although paid by the Government of Victoria, is appointed by the Imperial Government to register ships in the State, and a corresponding officer is similarly appointed in Adelaide and Perth. The procedure for registration is laid down in section 4, which reads - The following persons shall be registrars of British ships : - At any port in the United Kingdom, or Isle of Man, approved by the Commissioners of Customs for the registry of ships, the chief officer of Customs : In Guernsey and Jersey, the chief officers of Customs, together with the Governor : In Malta and Gibraltar the Governor : At Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, the port officer : At any other port in any British Possession approved by the Governor of the Possession for the registry of ships, the chief officer of Customs, or if there is no such officer there resident, the Governor of the Possession in which the port is situate, or any officer appointed for the purpose by the Governor. In schedule 2 of the Act, the procedure for the measurement of tonnage is laid down. It provides that the measurement shall be the measurement of the whole ship with deductions, in the case of a steam-ship, for her propelling space and crew space. 2328 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - We have had this information fifty times, so what is the use of repeating it? 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Is the honorable senator perfectly satisfied that what the Government understood when the contract was signed was that the mails were to be carried in ships of at least 11,000 tons registered tonnage ? 2328 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - That does not matter. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - There is no State which has more right to insist upon a clear understanding on this point than has Victoria, considering that she has been bled by the mail companies to a tremendous extent. Mr. Croker has not agreed to put in a provision to protect its producers. 2328 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - They have taken steps to protect themselves. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - They cannot protect themselves. The honorable senator knows that the producers are absolutely at the mercy of either the men in Market street or the steam-ship companies. It is absolutely imperative to have ships with sufficient capacity to provide a reasonable space for the purpose of cool storage. 2328 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator Mcgregor - These boats will have a reasonable space if they are of 11,000 tons register. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - How much space for cool storage could be obtained in a ship of 11,000 tons gross register? 2328 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - We are not talking about gross register. , 2328 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - The agreement says that the boats are to be of 11,000 tons register, and the honorable senator says that that is net register. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Yes. 2328 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - If it is net register, then we shall get a biggertonnage. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Exactly. 2328 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - And if it is gross register that is all we want. 2328 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - Probably the honorable senator and I read the article differently. If a difference of opinion should arise, by. whom would it be decided? It would have to be decided by the men who signed the contract. I asked the Government for an explanation ; but they will not give it. 2328 K0X South Australia Protectionist Minister of Defence 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD . - I am quite willing to tell the honorable senator, if he wishes to know, exactly what the Government considered that they would get under the contract which they were signing. I have heard many arguments on this point while I have been sitting very quietly in my chair. The first question I heard was " Why did you stipulate for boats of 11,000 tons?" It was said that if this was only a mail contract we need have vessels of not more than a few hundred tons. Then we were told that " 11,000 tons registered tonnage " meant quite a different thing - that it meant something like 15,000 or 22,000 tons gross. Senator Guthrie, however, informed us that such ships could not go through the Suez Canal, or enter our ports. Now he has told us that ships of 11,000 tons gross register would not have sufficient space for carrying refrigerated produce. First he said that we want small ships for carrying our mails, and, secondly, that we want large ships to enable produce to be conveyed. The Government has considered this matter of registration. They think that what is' meant is gross tonnage. We should be satisfied if the company built vessels larger than 11,000 tons gross, but we consider that for our purposes vessels of that size would be ample. We leave it to the contractors to say whether in the management of their business they consider that larger ships are necessary ; and if so, we shall be very pleased to have them provided. 2329 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE . - I hold in my hand a publication, a perusal of which shows me that we have had a great deal of talk about a very simple matter. The document is the report of a Royal Commission which sat in England some years ago to inquire into the mercantile marine. It shows that Senator de Largie's contention in respect of tonnage is absolutely correct - that registered tonnage means not only gross but also net tonnage. There is not only registered gross tonnage, but also registered net tonnage ; but in all cases the registered gross tonnage comes first. For instance, the list of ships contains the name of one which is well known to all Australians, the Suevic of the White Star line. The particulars concerning her are taken from the register. In one column is entered her gross registered tonnage, and in another sub-division her net registered tonnage. The gross registered tonnage is 12,499,and the net registered tonnage 8,180. Both are registered tonnages. That is the contention of Senator de Largie. In the case of this Contract I have no doubt that 11, 000 tons means gross tonnage. At any rate, the words carry that implication, as net tonnage is put in a secondary position in the document before me. Lloyds' Register differs only from the register under the Merchant Shipping Act in this respect: that it includes not only registrations under that Act, but also foreign registrations. That is to say, Lloyds is the register under the Merchant Shipping Act, plus a register of foreign vessels. 2329 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - Senator Pearce seems to have made up his mind on very small information. There are many British ships on the British register that are not registered at Lloyds at all. Many are registered with the French Vois Veritas. Some register with a German Association. Lloyds' Register is merely a classification for insurance purposes. Lloyds is an insurance institution. It has nothing to do with the law. There is no statutory provision that gives any recognition to Lloyds. 2329 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - I never said that there was. 2329 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The honorable senator said that Lloyds was a register of British ships. It is nothing of the kind. It is an insurance register. Honorable senators are absolutely at sea regarding this question. Suppose I own a ship. I am compelled by law to register that ship, or I do not get the protection of British law. But I can use my own discretion whether I register at Lloyd's, with the Vois Veritas, or with a German organization. Honorable senators are voting for this agreement on absolutely wrong premises. 2329 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - Let us catch our trains ! 2329 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - This is too big a matter for us to consider the trifling inconvenience of a Minister who wants to catch his train. It will affect every living soul in this Commonwealth for the next ten years. That is a far more important consideration than whether Senator Playford shall go to Adelaide to-night. Up till just now we had been unable to obtain from the Government any declaration of what was meant by registered tonnage. Now the Minister tells, us that the Government understands it to mean gross tonnage. . Why was not the other branch of the ' Legislature informed of that ? In my opinion, this is too important a matter' to be rushed through at the end of the week. The public ought to have an opportunity of considering it. Question - That the words proposed to be added be added - put. The Committee divided. 2 Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Stewart, J. C. 24 Baker, Sir R. C. Clemons, J. S. Croft, J. W. Dawson, A. Dobson, H. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. Gould, A. J. Henderson, G. Higgs, W. G. Keating, J. H. Macfarlane, J. McGregor, G. Millen, E. D. Neild, J. C. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. (Teller) Playford, T. Pulsford, E. Smith, M. S. C. Styles, J. Turley, H. Walker, J. T. de Largie, H. Majority ... ... 22 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Article 15 Amendment (by Senator Keating) agreed to - That there be added to the motion - Proviso to article 15 - After "legislation" insert "directly"; after the words "with the consent of," insert " or subject to approval by"; and after "Parliament," insert " by resolution." 2330 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - Before we leave the consideration of the articles of agreement, I desire to move - That there be added to the motion - Provided that the following new article be inserted - "16a. That under the option to the Common wealth or the Postmaster-General, acting on its behalf, to purchase the ships under the said contract, neither the said Postmaster-General, nor the said Commonwealth Government, nor the arbitrators, if appointed, in determining the price to be paid therefor, under the purchase clause of the contract shall take into consideration the alleged book values represented ' in the books of the builders, who are also the contractors, but that a clause shall be expressly inserted in the said contract forbidding the said alleged book values to be taken into consideration as the basis of valuation in determining the price to be paid, and that the actual then present value of the vessels shall be ascertained by independent valuation in the usual way, quite apart from the alleged book values." In reading the history of the great combine between American and British shippers in the Western Ocean trade, I found that Pierpoint Morgan, who was virtually the financial manager, brought the White Star Company into line with the American companies. Although the White Star Company had only a paid-up capital of something like £800,000, it received from the combine £8,000,000. 2330 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - Why had £8,000,000 to be paid ? 2330 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - In order to bring about the combination. 2330 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - Would it not have been possible to run the White Star Company off the line for £8,000,000? 2330 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - It is a long story, and I know that some honorable senators are anxious to catch the train. If, however, the Government will agree to an adjournment, I shall promise to lay the whole facts before honorable senators next week. This was not a matter of combining the various shipping companies, but of keeping in existence the great industry of shipbuilding in Great Britain. The whole scheme was engineered by one of the largest shipbuilders at Home; and" it was pointed out in an article in the Times that it did not matter where the registered office of the combination was, or under which flag the vessel sailed, because the hub of the combine would be at Belfast where the ships were built. All I propose by the new article is that if we take over these ships, the only value recognised shall be that of the vessels themselves, and not the values shown in the books. This is a clear cut proposition which, I think, will appeal to every honorable senator. In such a transaction, no goodwill should be considered ; and here I may say that in Adelaide, in connexion with the Tramway Company, the Government have had to pay according to the value of the shares. In six years' time if we have to take over these vessels, we shall have to beware of the booming of shares on the Exchange, or we shall find' ourselves in a big hole. The. sole object of the proposition is to make it clear that the ships shall be taken over at their real, and not their book, value. Question - That the words proposed to be added be added -put. The Committee divided. 9 Croft, J. W. Findley, E. Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Higgs, W. G. Macfarlane, J. Neild, J. C. Stewart, J. C. Turley, H. Walker, J. T. 13 Baker, Sir R. C. Dawson, A. Drake, J. G. Henderson, G. Keating, J. H. Millen, E. D. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Pulsford, E. Smith, M. S. C. Styles, J. de Largie, H. (Teller) Majority .... ... 4 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Postponed Article 1 - That the " general conditions of tender" annexed hereto and marked with the letter "A" shall be deemed to be part of this agreement, 2330 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - I think that this article has been carelessly drafted. " I direct attention to the fact that the last paragraph of the first clause of the general conditions of tenderreads The term "Adelaide" shall mean the signalling station (known as " Adelaide Semaphore") at or off the port of the city of Adelaide in South Australia, until the Outer Harbor is completed and available. When the Outer Harbor is completed and available, there will be no Adelaide under this contract. I therefore think that it is necessary to add a proviso to meet the difficulty. I move - That there be added to the motion - " Proviso to clause 1 of the General Conditions of Tender - Add the words : ' Then Adelaide shall mean the Outer Harbor at Light's Passage and the wharfs thereof. " I do not know, however, that it is necessary that I should labour the matter, but honorable senators may be aware that the State Government of South Australia have gone to an expense of about £500,000 to provide accommodation for the mail steamers at the Outer Harbor. Under this contract, as soon as the works at the Outer Harbor are completed, it will not be necessary, apparently, for the boats engaged in this service to call at Adelaide at all. I have not been able to carry many amendments, but I hope that honorable senators will assist me to carry this one. 2331 K0X South Australia Protectionist Minister of Defence 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD . - There is not the slightest necessity for the amendment. The clause provides that Adelaide shall mean the signalling station known as "Adelaide Semaphore" until the Outer Harbor is completed and available, and then, of course, the Outer Harbor will be the place to which the vessels must go. 2331 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - That should be stated plainly. . 2331 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - It is perfectly plain as it is. There is not the slightest doubt about it, and there is no necessity at all for the amendment. 2331 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - We should put into this contract exactly what we mean, and under clause 1 of the general conditions of tender, when the Outer Harbor is completed and available, Adelaide, according to the definition here given, will be done away with. 2331 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Where else will the ships go ? 2331 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - There will be no such place as Adelaide referred to in this contract, and that may be taken by the company as an excuse for breaking the contract. 2331 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - If the honorable senator will look through the general conditions of tender, he will see that Adelaide and Brindisi are referred to. 2331 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - That is so, but Adelaide is defined to mean a certain place until a certain time, and after the Outer Harbor is completed and available, it will not be defined. 2331 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I should like to know where we stand. Senator Guthrie is apparently seeking to amend one of the clauses in the general conditions of tender. 2331 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The Committee are now discussing postponed article 1 of the contract. 2331 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I understood Senator Guthrie to move an amendment on clause 1 of the general conditions of tender. 2331 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I understand that Senator Guthrie wishes to add to clause 1 of the general conditions of tender the words " then Adelaide shall mean the Outer Harbor at Light's Passage, and the wharfs thereof." With respect to the point raised by Senator Millen, I may say that the Committee postponed article 1 of the agreement for further consideration. This article says that - "The General Conditions of Tender annexed hereto and marked with the letter "A,' shall be deemed to be part of this agreement." And if the Committee agrees to amend anything in the general conditions of tender I do not see that I can prevent it. . 2331 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - If they do they will break the agreement. 2331 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I think that Senator Guthrie is in order in moving his amendment. 2331 K0X South Australia Protectionist Minister of Defence 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD . - I point out to honorable. senators that these general conditions of tender are the conditions under which other people tendered for the contract, as well as the company with whom we are dealing. It would be unfair to them to alter- these conditions in any way. I inform Senator Guthrie again that I am perfectly satisfied that the definition of "Adelaide" in clause1 of the conditions of tender will refer to the Outer Harbor, Adelaide, when it is completed and available. ... 2331 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - The words of the clause which I seek to_ amend define Adelaide to mean the signalling station known as the Adelaide Semaphore, until the Outer Harbor is completed and available. 2332 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - For the mail steamers. 2332 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - The clause does not say so. It does not provide that the mail steamers are to use the facilities to be afforded on the completion of the Outer Harbor. The matter is one of very great importance to South Australia. I have said that the State Government are making provision at very great cost to give facilities for these ships, and yet under this clause, as soon as the Outer Harbor works are completed, these vessels need not go to the port at all, because there will be no Adelaide under this clause when those works are completed. 2332 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What will become of it? 2332 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I do not know. The amendment will provide for exactly what the honorable senator desires, and why should he not accept it? 2332 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator Playford - We cannot alter these contracts in this way. 2332 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - What I propose is merely to make the contract clear. The amendment will not matter twopence to the contractors or to the Government, whilst it will make it clear that Adelaide, after the completion of the Outer Harbor, will mean the Outer Harbor, and not the anchorage at the Semaphore. 2332 K0X South Australia Protectionist 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD . - There are two terminal ports mentioned in this contract. Brindisi and Adelaide. So far as Brindisi is concerned, we do not say whether the ships are to go to a pier, or a wharf, or to stand out ten miles away from the town. At Adelaide we have an anchorage known as . " Adelaide Semaphore," and the State Government are building an Outer Harbor. The words used in clause 1 of the general conditions of tender are used for the purpose of providing that, until the Outer Harbor is completed, the ships shall go to the Semaphore. 2332 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - When the Outer Harbor is completed we shall require no definition of Adelaide, any more than of Brindisi. 2332 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD - That is so. There is not the slightest necessity for the amendment. Question - That the words proposed to be added be added - put. The Committee divided. 2 Guthrie, R. S. (Teller) Stewart, J. C. 19 Clemons, J. S. (Teller) Croft, J. W. Dawson, A. Drake, J. G. Findley, E. Gould, A. J. Henderson, G. Higgs, W. G. Keating, J. H. Macfarlane, J. Millen, E. D. O'Keefe, D. J. Pearce, G. F. Playford, T. Pulsford, E. Smith, M. S. C. Styles, J. Turley, H. de Largie, H. Majority ... ... 17 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. 2332 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The motion, as amended, is now before the Committee. 2332 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - Before this contract is finally ratified, I think the Senate should express an opinion as to whether, after the results of the inquiries by the Butter Commission, we are prepared to allow another contract to be entered into without seeing that it provides for a sufficiency of space for cool storage, a maximum rate of freight for the carriage of produce and the use of a self-registering thermometer, in order to prove that proper care of the produce has been taken in transit. There are very strong reasons why those provisions should be made. For instance, in their report, the Butter Commission say - After much deliberation upon the evidence regarding ocean freights, we are of opinion that this is one of the most pressing questions concerning the butter industry. It is also a question of vital importance to the Commonwealth, inasmuch as the majority of our rural producers are interested in the export of butter. This trade, therefore, may now be recognised as one of the most important to the people of Australia. , Since the inception of the export trade in butter, the carriage of this product has been practically in the hands of the mail companies. Whilst readily acknowledging the fact that the facilities offered by the mail companies assisted the butter industry at its inception, the present action of these companies in endeavouring to secure a contract for a number of years at a trivial reduction on the existing high rates. must be looked upon in the light of the evidence, as in attempt to monopolize the trade. In the face of that extract, do honorable senators intend to ratify a contract which; would allow the new company to join the others in monopolizing the butter trade? The facts which were elicited by that Royal Commission ought to induce honorable senators to pause. 2333 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - Is the extract supported by any evidence? 2333 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - It is supported by evidence which was adduced by the very gentleman who signed this contract on behalf of Sir James Laing and Sons. It has been explained by the Honorary Minister that the Government took the view that the contract ought not to deal with the question of cold storage, because the State Governments would not guarantee to fill a certain amount of space in each ship. But I take up the position that it is not our place to be guided by a recommendation from the StatesPemiers. Probably each senator represents more persons in his State than does its Premier. In South Australia, for instance, it is quite possible for its Premier to be a member of the Legislative Council, and, having been elected on a property qualification, to represent only a third of the population of the State. The present Premier is, I' admit, the representative of the State, but he is returned for a suburban constituency. A senator, however, is elected on an adult suffrage, and it is our duty to look after the interests of our producers when we are asked to ratify a contract of this kind. I can only imagine that the grant of this subsidy of £125,000 is based on two considerations - one being to secure the carriage of a few tons of mails and the other to insure regularity in delivery. But for the necessity to secure regular delivery, we could get our mail matter carried for £5,000 a year under the poundage system. When we are making a present of £100,000 to the contractors, we have a right, I submit, to require that they shall provide sufficient cool storage on each ship for carrying a portion of our produce. I may mention that, as the result of the inquiries by the Butter Commission, the rate of freight for butter has fallen from11/8d. to3/8d. per lb. The position in Australia is a serious one. Butter is carried to London from Riga, in Russia, at 24s. per ton, and from Australia at £7 per ton. If we desire to hold1 the European market, ought we not to fake advantage of this opportunity to out our producers on equal terms with their competitors in that market? £125,000 a year is too large a price to pay for the carriage of mail matter, unless the contract secures to the Commonwealth other advantages. I move - That all the words after " That " be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - " In the interests of the producers, no mail-ships' contract should be let by the Commonwealth Government until there is a guarantee as to the cool storage to be provided, the maximum freight to be charged, and a guarantee as to maximum temperature, so as to insure the effective preservation of produce shipped. Amendment negatived. Original question, as amended, resolved; in the affirmative. Resolved - That the Committee approves the agreement made and entered intoonthe7thdayofJuly, 1906, between the Postmaster-General, in and for the Commonwealth, and Sir James Laing and Sons Limited, for the carriage of mails between Adelaide and Brindisi, as per schedule, with the following modifications : - Proviso to article 3 - Provided that, in the event of the Postmaster-General requiring the ' period of transit' on the voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide to be reduced to six hundred and twelve hours, the period of six hundred and twelve hours shall thenceforth be deemed to bethe ' period of transit' for each voyage from Brindisi to Adelaide, and each such voyage shall be completed within that period. Proviso to article 6- Leave -out the words " failing mutual agreement, be determined by arbitration in the manner provided in the said general conditions of tender," and insert in lieu thereof "be determined by mutual agreement, subject to the approval of Parliament by resolution." Proviso to article 15 - After the word " legislation" insert "directly" ; after the words "with the consent of" insert "or subject to approval by," and after "Parliament" insert "by resolution." Resolution reported. Motion (by Senator Keating) agreed to - That the report be agreed to, and that the resolution be conveyed by message to the House of Representatives, with a request for concurrence therein. 2333 papers Senator PLAYFORD laid upon the table the following papers : - The Financial Problems of the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia. - Memorandum by the Honorable Robert Harper, M.P. Royal Commission on Customs and Excise Tariffs : Section 36 of Progress Report No.2 - Spirits and Distillation of Spirits. Report of the Departmental Actuary, Statistical Department of Western Australia, on the question of the distribution of the Commonwealth Revenue on a population basis. Public Service Act1902. - Return of Temporary Employes in the Commonwealth Public Service during the Financial Year 1905-6. 2333 16:46:00 Senate adjourned at 4.46 p.m.